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7sizgv | 87 | [Meta] User glauner was an alt - caught evading ban. Suspended by admins. Warning to others After noticing similar points writing style and self-admitted location (Germany)... user glauner was reported to the admins for suspected ban evasion. I won t say who I thought it was (doesn t matter) but admins confirmed they took action and now u glauner s account is suspended. Thus if you were in an argument with that user recently (and many were) they will not be responding. Further warning to other users avoiding bans: We pay attention. Don t think you are fooling anyone with new accounts that only post here. (Brand new users being made in Germany that will join sub and start trolling in 3...2...1...) | u glauner was the user that claimed that 50ppm is the average failure rate for automakers. I called him out on it and asked for a source but he ended up admitting that he pulled that number out of his ass... | Thanks but I m not sure I ll notice the change. They already weren t responding to my requests for sources on their claims. s | 32 | 3 | 2,006 |
7sizgv | 87 | [Meta] User glauner was an alt - caught evading ban. Suspended by admins. Warning to others After noticing similar points writing style and self-admitted location (Germany)... user glauner was reported to the admins for suspected ban evasion. I won t say who I thought it was (doesn t matter) but admins confirmed they took action and now u glauner s account is suspended. Thus if you were in an argument with that user recently (and many were) they will not be responding. Further warning to other users avoiding bans: We pay attention. Don t think you are fooling anyone with new accounts that only post here. (Brand new users being made in Germany that will join sub and start trolling in 3...2...1...) | u glauner was the user that claimed that 50ppm is the average failure rate for automakers. I called him out on it and asked for a source but he ended up admitting that he pulled that number out of his ass... | No shit | 32 | 5 | 2,007 |
7sizgv | 87 | [Meta] User glauner was an alt - caught evading ban. Suspended by admins. Warning to others After noticing similar points writing style and self-admitted location (Germany)... user glauner was reported to the admins for suspected ban evasion. I won t say who I thought it was (doesn t matter) but admins confirmed they took action and now u glauner s account is suspended. Thus if you were in an argument with that user recently (and many were) they will not be responding. Further warning to other users avoiding bans: We pay attention. Don t think you are fooling anyone with new accounts that only post here. (Brand new users being made in Germany that will join sub and start trolling in 3...2...1...) | u glauner was the user that claimed that 50ppm is the average failure rate for automakers. I called him out on it and asked for a source but he ended up admitting that he pulled that number out of his ass... | Didn t follow his posts. What were his arguments that got him banned? | 32 | 5 | 2,008 |
7sqjja | 142 | Second Wave of Pre-orders live now! Texas Owner Day 2 Reservation. Just got access to the configurator! :) Edit: Estimated delivery is 4 weeks. I just completed the order and there isn t any changes to the available options. I chose white with Aero wheels. | Please make sure to contribute to the [Model 3 Reservation Data sheet.](https: docs.google.com spreadsheets d 1BWscIZyLsh42IHcj1AJNfEF-vzj-vRo-3skcCXgO_Nc edit?usp=sheets_home& ths=true)Ω | Any changes or new info listed? | 39 | 5 | 2,009 |
7sqjja | 142 | Second Wave of Pre-orders live now! Texas Owner Day 2 Reservation. Just got access to the configurator! :) Edit: Estimated delivery is 4 weeks. I just completed the order and there isn t any changes to the available options. I chose white with Aero wheels. | I reserved 8 months ago May 30th **2017** and can order now. Owner. Pickup from factory. | It s very weird they aren t sending out emails. | 29 | 3 | 2,010 |
7t79wp | 165 | My car didn t come equipped as described what are my options. I purchased my Model S 75 in September right when they started bundling options all together. Well my car was supposed to come with Adaptive Headlights... it does not have them. When I called Tesla back in October they admitted their wrongdoing and promised to replace them however its been 4 Months and nothing has happened. I trusted them but they just keep stringing me along.. I even had an appointment to get it fixed a month ago and they DIDN T FIX IT and told me a bulletin came out telling them not to..... My car does not have the feature it is supposed to have.. and I am feeling duped... What are my legal options? I m close to seeking an attorney. I want to trust Tesla but they are just not doing what they promised and sold me a car that doesn t have what it was supposed to. | I just posted about this yesterday.. I escalated twice. Nothing either. I knew before delivery and was told they would fix it. 4 months later. Nothing | side note - this is why you always inspect before accepting delivery. I personally would call in and ask for a manager escalation. Give them one last shot at making it right. If that doesn t pan out I d try small claims court to recover the cost of the upgrade (cheaper than getting a lawyer to force a buyback) | 34 | 5 | 2,011 |
7t79wp | 165 | My car didn t come equipped as described what are my options. I purchased my Model S 75 in September right when they started bundling options all together. Well my car was supposed to come with Adaptive Headlights... it does not have them. When I called Tesla back in October they admitted their wrongdoing and promised to replace them however its been 4 Months and nothing has happened. I trusted them but they just keep stringing me along.. I even had an appointment to get it fixed a month ago and they DIDN T FIX IT and told me a bulletin came out telling them not to..... My car does not have the feature it is supposed to have.. and I am feeling duped... What are my legal options? I m close to seeking an attorney. I want to trust Tesla but they are just not doing what they promised and sold me a car that doesn t have what it was supposed to. | I just posted about this yesterday.. I escalated twice. Nothing either. I knew before delivery and was told they would fix it. 4 months later. Nothing | I have also had this issue with the model x | 34 | 7 | 2,012 |
7t8fs7 | 69 | Volvo Pilot Assist vs. Tesla Autopilot AP2 I recently had my Model S AP2 in the shop and got a Volvo with Pilot Assist as a rental. The perfect opportunity to get some first hand data on how these compare in terms of driving assistance! Based on some of the articles I read over the last year or so I fully expected the Volvo system to be at least on par with AP2. But far (far!) from that. It is probably more comparable to the lane assist system that Toyota offers. I have a Prius in the family and had plenty of driving time on that one and the lane assist together with the dynamic cruise control on the Toyota is very comparable to what Pilot Assist offers on a Volvo. Also even on the highway acceleration and deceleration and perceived degree of how far it looks ahead in terms of distance is worse on the Volvo compared to Toyota. Both far inferior to Tesla s AP2. In a nutshell the dynamic cruise control portion works fairly well. In my opinion not as well as on the Toyota but ok. And for the auto-steer (or steering assistance call it whatever you want) unfortunately the same is true: it keeps you in the lane on a straight road but that s about it. Throw a more than very mild curve at it and you end up on the shoulder or in the oncoming lane. *Disclaimer for all the concerned readers: Yes I know that Tesla doesn t approve of AP use off highways. And yes I always had my hands on the steering wheel. And yes I supervise AP ultra closely and watch traffic like a hawk. And of course I understand the difference in how Tesla and Volvo characterize their systems. But we all also know what they really try to say and why they say it that way.* | I tried out the GM SuperCruise last week. It got some great reviews by both Business Insider and theDrive but I was really disappointed: - It can only be activated on very few freeway stretches locations that have to be mapped out by their LIDARs. - It doesn t work in stop and go traffic. - It contains a camera that s used to detect whether the driver is paying attention. I don t like this intrusion of privacy at all. - Tesla AP can change lane as long as the driver signals it SuperCruise can t do that. - Next update and upgrade is completely unknown at this point. The salesman we talked to was a veteran in this business and very knowledgeable about the system. When I asked him about the future of this system and whether more models will be using it his answer was that it might. | Have an XC90 with Pilot Assist II and can confirm on the Volvo side. Speed adjustments work pretty well except for when you re doing a major slow down from > 40 to 0 then it it will do it later and less gradually than I m comfortable with. Lane-keeping is fine on mild curves only. That said I still find it quite useful especially in stop and go or on straight roads at high speeds. | 36 | 8 | 2,013 |
7t8fs7 | 69 | Volvo Pilot Assist vs. Tesla Autopilot AP2 I recently had my Model S AP2 in the shop and got a Volvo with Pilot Assist as a rental. The perfect opportunity to get some first hand data on how these compare in terms of driving assistance! Based on some of the articles I read over the last year or so I fully expected the Volvo system to be at least on par with AP2. But far (far!) from that. It is probably more comparable to the lane assist system that Toyota offers. I have a Prius in the family and had plenty of driving time on that one and the lane assist together with the dynamic cruise control on the Toyota is very comparable to what Pilot Assist offers on a Volvo. Also even on the highway acceleration and deceleration and perceived degree of how far it looks ahead in terms of distance is worse on the Volvo compared to Toyota. Both far inferior to Tesla s AP2. In a nutshell the dynamic cruise control portion works fairly well. In my opinion not as well as on the Toyota but ok. And for the auto-steer (or steering assistance call it whatever you want) unfortunately the same is true: it keeps you in the lane on a straight road but that s about it. Throw a more than very mild curve at it and you end up on the shoulder or in the oncoming lane. *Disclaimer for all the concerned readers: Yes I know that Tesla doesn t approve of AP use off highways. And yes I always had my hands on the steering wheel. And yes I supervise AP ultra closely and watch traffic like a hawk. And of course I understand the difference in how Tesla and Volvo characterize their systems. But we all also know what they really try to say and why they say it that way.* | I tried out the GM SuperCruise last week. It got some great reviews by both Business Insider and theDrive but I was really disappointed: - It can only be activated on very few freeway stretches locations that have to be mapped out by their LIDARs. - It doesn t work in stop and go traffic. - It contains a camera that s used to detect whether the driver is paying attention. I don t like this intrusion of privacy at all. - Tesla AP can change lane as long as the driver signals it SuperCruise can t do that. - Next update and upgrade is completely unknown at this point. The salesman we talked to was a veteran in this business and very knowledgeable about the system. When I asked him about the future of this system and whether more models will be using it his answer was that it might. | I was literally looking at Volvo S90s today. I m glad you posted this. | 36 | 9 | 2,014 |
7tlsgn | 84 | Early observations of the 3 from an X owner Just got my 3 last Thursday. Have a 90D. Car is fun to drive I guess .2 seconds slower than the X but it feels like it is slightly faster. Possibly just the feeling of moving around a smaller car though. Got used to the middle screen pretty quick. It s pretty weird at night when the lack of a driver screen makes it pitch black in front of you but that s also probably something I ll get over fast. Have had some Bluetooth syncing issues so far but otherwise build seems good. Hopefully gets solved with updates. The UX of the screen feels a little less intuitive than the X version but perhaps it s just my instincts confusing me as well. Frunk being the same size as a carry-on is a cool feature. The key card phone entry is a great feature and made me think we ll eventually not have keys at all as a civilization.. and Tesla is one of the first to make that a reality. It s nice not having to have bulky keys in your pocket or need to locate those. Overall a pretty great car. Some premium features of the X are definitely missed but that s to be expected for $40k less. I don t think I ll default to wanting to drive the X (now my wife s car) over this one. | > Car is fun to drive I guess You really should wait for all that initial excitement to wear off so you can give us an unbiased review ) | Im curious if Tesla makes the single horizontal screen and fob-less access a standard trait throughout the lineup or whether that remains as a characteristic of it s lower priced vehicles. The model S vs 3 comparison on their site uses the 2 vs 1 screen argument to signify the S having more. | 68 | 3 | 2,015 |
7tnq32 | 188 | Our bricked Model 3 is finally fixed. Required Firmware rev This is a follow up to my original post about our completely dead Model 3 from last Saturday. [https: www.reddit.com r teslamotors comments 7rtd9v we\\_may\\_possibly\\_have\\_the\\_first\\_nonrebootable ](https: www.reddit.com r teslamotors comments 7rtd9v we_may_possibly_have_the_first_nonrebootable ) Car was ready Friday afternoon I picked up Saturday afternoon. Was told that they had needed to rev the firmware that this firmware is going out to all Model 3s and that they ve set a trace on the car to monitor the telemetry data in real time to ensure nothing else goes wrong. Car is driving well so far no issues waking up. | When your Model 3 was bricked did you try and turn on the hazard lights? Did they work? The hazard lights should bypass the computer for safety reasons. | Nice. Glad to hear it and the trace is hopefully peace of mind. To clarify what is a firmware rev ? Rev...olution? Revert? Like reinstallling? Reflashing? Reimaging? | 42 | 13 | 2,016 |
7to1n3 | 90 | [PSA] Tesla confirms Apple Watch causes call quality issues with iPhone and Tesla BT Handsfree Put your watch in Airplane mode as a workaround. I called Tesla about the poor audio quality people I call experience when I m in my car. The support agent asked if I had an Apple Watch (I do) and suggested I put it in airplane mode. I did - immediately cleared up the issue. Tesla claims it s an Apple issue - but at least now there s a workaround. Enjoy! | Far as I can tell the issues were resolved with the latest iOS update on the phone and watch. 11.2.5 & 4.2.2 respectively. No one has complained to me since. | I haven t noticed audio issues with my Apple Watch (Series 3 Cellular) while making calls with my iPhone but it annoys the heck out of me that I can t connect my Apple Watch directly to my Tesla s Bluetooth and make calls with my phone left at home (I think this is Apple s issue not Tesla s). | 40 | 3 | 2,017 |
7to1n3 | 90 | [PSA] Tesla confirms Apple Watch causes call quality issues with iPhone and Tesla BT Handsfree Put your watch in Airplane mode as a workaround. I called Tesla about the poor audio quality people I call experience when I m in my car. The support agent asked if I had an Apple Watch (I do) and suggested I put it in airplane mode. I did - immediately cleared up the issue. Tesla claims it s an Apple issue - but at least now there s a workaround. Enjoy! | Far as I can tell the issues were resolved with the latest iOS update on the phone and watch. 11.2.5 & 4.2.2 respectively. No one has complained to me since. | I have 0 issues with Watch connected. | 40 | 8 | 2,018 |
7ttnlm | 98 | Base Model 3 will have an aluminum roof Yesterday I went to the model3 showroom car in Santana Row (San Jose) and I had 2 minutes in the car. I asked the specialist (the guy sitting in the car describing all of the features) about if the glass roof is also standard on the base model and he said no the standard model comes with an aluminum roof. I know sometimes the showroom people know about as much as people from this subreddit but his immediate response and the fact that he said aluminum not metal makes me think he knows this as a fact. | Show us the non pup car already. They showed us the pup car 2 years ago. How is someone supposed to decide which one they want if they only get to see one version before deciding? | What s the headliner material though? | 42 | 4 | 2,019 |
7ttnlm | 98 | Base Model 3 will have an aluminum roof Yesterday I went to the model3 showroom car in Santana Row (San Jose) and I had 2 minutes in the car. I asked the specialist (the guy sitting in the car describing all of the features) about if the glass roof is also standard on the base model and he said no the standard model comes with an aluminum roof. I know sometimes the showroom people know about as much as people from this subreddit but his immediate response and the fact that he said aluminum not metal makes me think he knows this as a fact. | Show us the non pup car already. They showed us the pup car 2 years ago. How is someone supposed to decide which one they want if they only get to see one version before deciding? | From what I recall in previous posts here - the glass above the driver and passenger is the solid roof. The glass that goes from the rear passengers down into the trunk remains standard. | 42 | 13 | 2,020 |
7ttnlm | 98 | Base Model 3 will have an aluminum roof Yesterday I went to the model3 showroom car in Santana Row (San Jose) and I had 2 minutes in the car. I asked the specialist (the guy sitting in the car describing all of the features) about if the glass roof is also standard on the base model and he said no the standard model comes with an aluminum roof. I know sometimes the showroom people know about as much as people from this subreddit but his immediate response and the fact that he said aluminum not metal makes me think he knows this as a fact. | Show us the non pup car already. They showed us the pup car 2 years ago. How is someone supposed to decide which one they want if they only get to see one version before deciding? | My gut tells me that would be significantly lighter than glass. | 42 | 14 | 2,021 |
7ttrqw | 179 | Prediction: First non-owner Model 3 invites will go out on Wednesday [*Wednesday Night Edit](https: www.rover.com blog wp-content uploads 2015 12 i-do-not-like-the-cone-of-shame-up-pixar-doug-dog-960x540.png) I took a look at the Model 3 Invites spreadsheet this morning to see just how far Tesla has exhausted the list of owners who have reserved. On the spreadsheet 581 owners have put in their reservation date. The vast majority of them have received invites as long as they reserved their Model 3 before July 8 2017 likely indicating all of them before that date have received invites and they simply haven t updated the spreadsheet. After July 8 2017 there are only 17 reservations remaining which is 3% of the owners on the spreadsheet. Last week s invites went out to 59 owners on the spreadsheet or 10% of them. This means when another round of invites goes out this week (Recently it has been on Wednesdays) a third of them will go to the remaining owners and two thirds of them will go out to people who are not owners. Obviously we re working with a sample size here since we don t have Tesla s actual list but I think there is pretty good evidence here that Tesla is 95%+ the way through owner reservations. Source: https: docs.google.com spreadsheets d 1BWscIZyLsh42IHcj1AJNfEF-vzj-vRo-3skcCXgO_Nc edit?usp=sharing | ~~Wednesday~~ Thursday *is* February 1. My delivery window is currently December-February. I like the way you think OP. I ve decided your speculation is 100% accurate. EDIT: You get the point. | Seems reasonable. Guess that buys me at least another month in the Midwest to get an invite. Works for me. I want to bide my time anyways. Hopefully we get info about the SR battery before I get my invite. | 73 | 4 | 2,022 |
7ttrqw | 179 | Prediction: First non-owner Model 3 invites will go out on Wednesday [*Wednesday Night Edit](https: www.rover.com blog wp-content uploads 2015 12 i-do-not-like-the-cone-of-shame-up-pixar-doug-dog-960x540.png) I took a look at the Model 3 Invites spreadsheet this morning to see just how far Tesla has exhausted the list of owners who have reserved. On the spreadsheet 581 owners have put in their reservation date. The vast majority of them have received invites as long as they reserved their Model 3 before July 8 2017 likely indicating all of them before that date have received invites and they simply haven t updated the spreadsheet. After July 8 2017 there are only 17 reservations remaining which is 3% of the owners on the spreadsheet. Last week s invites went out to 59 owners on the spreadsheet or 10% of them. This means when another round of invites goes out this week (Recently it has been on Wednesdays) a third of them will go to the remaining owners and two thirds of them will go out to people who are not owners. Obviously we re working with a sample size here since we don t have Tesla s actual list but I think there is pretty good evidence here that Tesla is 95%+ the way through owner reservations. Source: https: docs.google.com spreadsheets d 1BWscIZyLsh42IHcj1AJNfEF-vzj-vRo-3skcCXgO_Nc edit?usp=sharing | ~~Wednesday~~ Thursday *is* February 1. My delivery window is currently December-February. I like the way you think OP. I ve decided your speculation is 100% accurate. EDIT: You get the point. | As a non-owner living in a state with “not many” Tesla owners I hope this is true as I got the chance to not only finally see a Model 3 in person but was fortunate enough to drive it yesterday and I cannot express how the hype inside only increased exponentially. I even told the owner who I just met and was incredibly generous especially for letting me (a stranger essentially) drive his car that driving the car just made the wait that much harder. Hopefully my Jan-Mar estimation is on point (got pushed back only one month like most other reservation holders) but I would love for it to be more so February or even early March. But seriously guys this thing was so incredible to drive. I can see how a S or X owner may find more things to nit pick but coming from my current car to this will be a night and day difference. Can t wait. | 73 | 15 | 2,023 |
7tuvlx | 32 | PSA: Your delivery window is not really a delivery window I called Tesla a couple of weeks ago. They said the delivery window (Dec-Feb) is for the invitation not the car. From the time payment is made it takes 4 weeks for car delivery. Even though my window ends in Feb I might not get delivery of the actual vehicle until end of March. | Obviously the delivery estimate is referring to the delivery of your email invitation to configure. Not sure why you would think it s referring to delivery of a car. s | Everyone s delivery window was also set before the latest announcement from Tesla that they ve delayed hitting production of 5k cars per week from the end of Q1 to the end of Q2 so I doubt they re accurate anymore. | 40 | 6 | 2,024 |
7tv3ai | 21 | Is free supercharging going away on Wednesday A friend of mine was told by a salesperson that he needed to order his X by Wednesday because free supercharging for life goes away on Wednesday. Is that true? Does that mean the referral codes are going away too? | Supercharging for life will be going away -again- until they bring it back -again- to meet future sales goals. | > Is that true? Yes this referral period ends Wednesday. It gives free supercharging for life. > Does that mean the referral codes are going away too? I don t think anyone knows for sure but I expect there will be a new period with a different reward. | 37 | 9 | 2,025 |
7u4an6 | 127 | So I rented a Model 3 and a Model S to compare. My personal experience. I have a Day 1 Model 3 Reservation. I ve been excited about it all along. I sat in one at my local Tesla center in Century City. Not satisfied with the 2 minutes I had I decided to rent a Model 3 and took it for a nice long ride down PCH and Mulholland in Malibu. The next day I rented a Model S 75 to compare and did the same. Took my wife out to an early dinner each time. I don t have any groundbreaking insights here only personal experience but here it goes: I went to pick up the Model 3 in my BMW i3. Not going to lie I had high expectations. I was instantly excited but even in the white color I chose this one in there was this uncanny valley quality to it where the shape just feels a tiny bit off for no real reason at all. Driving it was great - car felt tight car felt quick car felt sporty. Felt a little bit like my old E90 M3 did but let s not get carried away here a BMW M3 it is not. The more I got used to it the more I liked it but everything I liked about the car was accompanied by something that equally annoyed me. Door handles are stupid - but its ok I ll get used to it. How do you operate the _____? Oh there it is...weird but its ok I ll get used to it. I really wish it had an instrument panel - but its ok I ll get used to it. I can go over every little detail but that s of no use here...you re in the Tesla motors subreddit you ve already read it a dozen times. I found myself trying to convince myself that this wasn t just a futuristic Mazda 3 but the overwhelmingly lasting impression was that it was exactly that. My wife reserved an opinion until the end of the night - she described it like this: It s fun and its pretty nice but it feels like this will be the Toyota Corolla in 2025. I agreed. The next day I picked up the Model S 75 in our 2016 BMW X5. I walked up and immediately preferred the looks of it. The slight awkwardness of the Model 3 wasn t there. It felt like a sexy sleek car and the premium materials made themselves instantly apparent. Everything felt right . The speed was there the ride quality was there it was the perfect balance of sporty comfort that I expected. There was no real learning curve everything was intuitive and I enjoyed the experience even though I had already test driven a Model S years ago and Model X when a friend purchased one. It was nice but that was it: Nice. The touchscreen is beautiful but you get over it. The ride quality is fantastic but I ve already grown to expect that from a luxury car. What else was there? Maybe I needed more time but there was nothing that was a must-have for me and I was sure looking for one. So I ve come to the previously unthinkable decision of simply holding off for now. If I want an EV with carpool sticker the BMW i3 fills my needs. Are there differences? Of course! But personally it s got enough space enough range and enough speed. The most unnerving thing about the Model 3 was how similar it felt to the i3 in real-world driving. Ride quality acceleration and interior space felt the same regardless of what the spec sheet shows. If I want a luxury vehicle to ride in premium comfort the BMW X5 fills my needs. Are there differences? Of course! But personally it s got everything I want in terms of ride quality features you expect from a $70k car and the range is upwards of 500miles with a 5min recharge time. Ride quality and interior space felt the same while the premium materials in the X5 were actually a little better and visibility was better in the SUV as well. A 17 touchscreen would be nice but it wouldn t really make my driving experience any better. So I m personally deciding to hold off. The upside for me just wasn t there. I love Tesla as a brand I ve invested a relatively small amount in TSLA and I enjoy seeing their vision materialize This wasn t a logistics or purely financial issue although money is always a factory in some way - I have a 220V charger in my garage and in my dedicated parking spot at work shared with only 2 other employee at my small company. I m 30 years old 2 toddlers at home. I m not too old for a sporty suspension (I commuted in a track-suspension BMW M3 for years) and I m not too young to dislike a comfortable ride (I had a Mercedes E-Class for a bit) - it s just a classic case of It s not you it s me . - What works best for my family and I is to keep what we have for the time being. I share this not to validate whatever decision you ve made the level of excitement in this subreddit is already high and I m not attempting to bring it down just sharing a very subjective experience. I m not sure what will change my mind in the future or what car I ll get next...maybe the Performance Model 3 will blow my socks off who knows? Maybe I should ve considered a P100D who knows? Maybe I should ve gotten that Carrera S that I fell in love with but decided against before Christmas who knows? But for now I ll sit on my Model 3 reservation to make a decision another day. | Is someone who drives an i3 allowed to call the looks of the 3 awkward? To each their own I guess | I m happy you took the time to try the available options and make the best decision for yourself. BMW ought to give you a call to discuss sponsorship options. | 126 | 9 | 2,026 |
7u4an6 | 127 | So I rented a Model 3 and a Model S to compare. My personal experience. I have a Day 1 Model 3 Reservation. I ve been excited about it all along. I sat in one at my local Tesla center in Century City. Not satisfied with the 2 minutes I had I decided to rent a Model 3 and took it for a nice long ride down PCH and Mulholland in Malibu. The next day I rented a Model S 75 to compare and did the same. Took my wife out to an early dinner each time. I don t have any groundbreaking insights here only personal experience but here it goes: I went to pick up the Model 3 in my BMW i3. Not going to lie I had high expectations. I was instantly excited but even in the white color I chose this one in there was this uncanny valley quality to it where the shape just feels a tiny bit off for no real reason at all. Driving it was great - car felt tight car felt quick car felt sporty. Felt a little bit like my old E90 M3 did but let s not get carried away here a BMW M3 it is not. The more I got used to it the more I liked it but everything I liked about the car was accompanied by something that equally annoyed me. Door handles are stupid - but its ok I ll get used to it. How do you operate the _____? Oh there it is...weird but its ok I ll get used to it. I really wish it had an instrument panel - but its ok I ll get used to it. I can go over every little detail but that s of no use here...you re in the Tesla motors subreddit you ve already read it a dozen times. I found myself trying to convince myself that this wasn t just a futuristic Mazda 3 but the overwhelmingly lasting impression was that it was exactly that. My wife reserved an opinion until the end of the night - she described it like this: It s fun and its pretty nice but it feels like this will be the Toyota Corolla in 2025. I agreed. The next day I picked up the Model S 75 in our 2016 BMW X5. I walked up and immediately preferred the looks of it. The slight awkwardness of the Model 3 wasn t there. It felt like a sexy sleek car and the premium materials made themselves instantly apparent. Everything felt right . The speed was there the ride quality was there it was the perfect balance of sporty comfort that I expected. There was no real learning curve everything was intuitive and I enjoyed the experience even though I had already test driven a Model S years ago and Model X when a friend purchased one. It was nice but that was it: Nice. The touchscreen is beautiful but you get over it. The ride quality is fantastic but I ve already grown to expect that from a luxury car. What else was there? Maybe I needed more time but there was nothing that was a must-have for me and I was sure looking for one. So I ve come to the previously unthinkable decision of simply holding off for now. If I want an EV with carpool sticker the BMW i3 fills my needs. Are there differences? Of course! But personally it s got enough space enough range and enough speed. The most unnerving thing about the Model 3 was how similar it felt to the i3 in real-world driving. Ride quality acceleration and interior space felt the same regardless of what the spec sheet shows. If I want a luxury vehicle to ride in premium comfort the BMW X5 fills my needs. Are there differences? Of course! But personally it s got everything I want in terms of ride quality features you expect from a $70k car and the range is upwards of 500miles with a 5min recharge time. Ride quality and interior space felt the same while the premium materials in the X5 were actually a little better and visibility was better in the SUV as well. A 17 touchscreen would be nice but it wouldn t really make my driving experience any better. So I m personally deciding to hold off. The upside for me just wasn t there. I love Tesla as a brand I ve invested a relatively small amount in TSLA and I enjoy seeing their vision materialize This wasn t a logistics or purely financial issue although money is always a factory in some way - I have a 220V charger in my garage and in my dedicated parking spot at work shared with only 2 other employee at my small company. I m 30 years old 2 toddlers at home. I m not too old for a sporty suspension (I commuted in a track-suspension BMW M3 for years) and I m not too young to dislike a comfortable ride (I had a Mercedes E-Class for a bit) - it s just a classic case of It s not you it s me . - What works best for my family and I is to keep what we have for the time being. I share this not to validate whatever decision you ve made the level of excitement in this subreddit is already high and I m not attempting to bring it down just sharing a very subjective experience. I m not sure what will change my mind in the future or what car I ll get next...maybe the Performance Model 3 will blow my socks off who knows? Maybe I should ve considered a P100D who knows? Maybe I should ve gotten that Carrera S that I fell in love with but decided against before Christmas who knows? But for now I ll sit on my Model 3 reservation to make a decision another day. | Is someone who drives an i3 allowed to call the looks of the 3 awkward? To each their own I guess | > It s fun and its pretty nice but it feels like this will be the Toyota Corolla in 2025. That s probably true. To get a 2025 car in 2018 you pay more for it. The Model 3 is meant to be at best entry-luxury like the BMW 3-series or Mercedes C-class or whatever comparable Acura or Toyota Lexus thing is. That s fine and to be expected. > the BMW i3 fills my needs. Are there differences? Of course! But personally it s got enough space enough range and enough speed I think that says more about you than the i3. To quote Car and Driver: With all the quirk of a Japanese kei car and all the complexity of a hypercar there is no other car on the market quite like the BMW i3 and i3s. Based on the slow sales it s not hard to see why. As I say to most people about Tesla vehicles: **It ll either click with you or it won t.** If it does you won t want anything else. My wife feels ambivalent about the difference between a 2018 Buick Enclave Avenir and a 2018 Model X 100D. It doesn t click with her the way it does with me. I m on my second Model S and I hope to have the patience to keep it until the 2020 models drop. If they put the Roadster 2 front end on the Model S though all bets are off... | 126 | 22 | 2,027 |
7u4an6 | 127 | So I rented a Model 3 and a Model S to compare. My personal experience. I have a Day 1 Model 3 Reservation. I ve been excited about it all along. I sat in one at my local Tesla center in Century City. Not satisfied with the 2 minutes I had I decided to rent a Model 3 and took it for a nice long ride down PCH and Mulholland in Malibu. The next day I rented a Model S 75 to compare and did the same. Took my wife out to an early dinner each time. I don t have any groundbreaking insights here only personal experience but here it goes: I went to pick up the Model 3 in my BMW i3. Not going to lie I had high expectations. I was instantly excited but even in the white color I chose this one in there was this uncanny valley quality to it where the shape just feels a tiny bit off for no real reason at all. Driving it was great - car felt tight car felt quick car felt sporty. Felt a little bit like my old E90 M3 did but let s not get carried away here a BMW M3 it is not. The more I got used to it the more I liked it but everything I liked about the car was accompanied by something that equally annoyed me. Door handles are stupid - but its ok I ll get used to it. How do you operate the _____? Oh there it is...weird but its ok I ll get used to it. I really wish it had an instrument panel - but its ok I ll get used to it. I can go over every little detail but that s of no use here...you re in the Tesla motors subreddit you ve already read it a dozen times. I found myself trying to convince myself that this wasn t just a futuristic Mazda 3 but the overwhelmingly lasting impression was that it was exactly that. My wife reserved an opinion until the end of the night - she described it like this: It s fun and its pretty nice but it feels like this will be the Toyota Corolla in 2025. I agreed. The next day I picked up the Model S 75 in our 2016 BMW X5. I walked up and immediately preferred the looks of it. The slight awkwardness of the Model 3 wasn t there. It felt like a sexy sleek car and the premium materials made themselves instantly apparent. Everything felt right . The speed was there the ride quality was there it was the perfect balance of sporty comfort that I expected. There was no real learning curve everything was intuitive and I enjoyed the experience even though I had already test driven a Model S years ago and Model X when a friend purchased one. It was nice but that was it: Nice. The touchscreen is beautiful but you get over it. The ride quality is fantastic but I ve already grown to expect that from a luxury car. What else was there? Maybe I needed more time but there was nothing that was a must-have for me and I was sure looking for one. So I ve come to the previously unthinkable decision of simply holding off for now. If I want an EV with carpool sticker the BMW i3 fills my needs. Are there differences? Of course! But personally it s got enough space enough range and enough speed. The most unnerving thing about the Model 3 was how similar it felt to the i3 in real-world driving. Ride quality acceleration and interior space felt the same regardless of what the spec sheet shows. If I want a luxury vehicle to ride in premium comfort the BMW X5 fills my needs. Are there differences? Of course! But personally it s got everything I want in terms of ride quality features you expect from a $70k car and the range is upwards of 500miles with a 5min recharge time. Ride quality and interior space felt the same while the premium materials in the X5 were actually a little better and visibility was better in the SUV as well. A 17 touchscreen would be nice but it wouldn t really make my driving experience any better. So I m personally deciding to hold off. The upside for me just wasn t there. I love Tesla as a brand I ve invested a relatively small amount in TSLA and I enjoy seeing their vision materialize This wasn t a logistics or purely financial issue although money is always a factory in some way - I have a 220V charger in my garage and in my dedicated parking spot at work shared with only 2 other employee at my small company. I m 30 years old 2 toddlers at home. I m not too old for a sporty suspension (I commuted in a track-suspension BMW M3 for years) and I m not too young to dislike a comfortable ride (I had a Mercedes E-Class for a bit) - it s just a classic case of It s not you it s me . - What works best for my family and I is to keep what we have for the time being. I share this not to validate whatever decision you ve made the level of excitement in this subreddit is already high and I m not attempting to bring it down just sharing a very subjective experience. I m not sure what will change my mind in the future or what car I ll get next...maybe the Performance Model 3 will blow my socks off who knows? Maybe I should ve considered a P100D who knows? Maybe I should ve gotten that Carrera S that I fell in love with but decided against before Christmas who knows? But for now I ll sit on my Model 3 reservation to make a decision another day. | Is someone who drives an i3 allowed to call the looks of the 3 awkward? To each their own I guess | What I just learned is that OP is filthy rich for 30 with two toddlers and I just want to know how he did that. And copy it. | 126 | 43 | 2,028 |
7ubvm7 | 139 | Dashcam Feature Coming Soon (Elon 08 2017) How s the Progress on This Tweet URL: https: twitter.com elonmusk status 902912866335956994 Replying to That many cameras on board and we still have to buy a separate Dashcam?! I hope @elonmusk adds a feature to export last x mins of video. Elon says Feature coming soon. | 3 months maybe 6 months definitely | It ll come when it s ready. Or it won t. | 75 | 2 | 2,029 |
7ubvm7 | 139 | Dashcam Feature Coming Soon (Elon 08 2017) How s the Progress on This Tweet URL: https: twitter.com elonmusk status 902912866335956994 Replying to That many cameras on board and we still have to buy a separate Dashcam?! I hope @elonmusk adds a feature to export last x mins of video. Elon says Feature coming soon. | 3 months maybe 6 months definitely | No progress that we know of. | 75 | 9 | 2,030 |
7ubvm7 | 139 | Dashcam Feature Coming Soon (Elon 08 2017) How s the Progress on This Tweet URL: https: twitter.com elonmusk status 902912866335956994 Replying to That many cameras on board and we still have to buy a separate Dashcam?! I hope @elonmusk adds a feature to export last x mins of video. Elon says Feature coming soon. | 3 months maybe 6 months definitely | Seriously even if and when they implement it I would still have dedicated 1080P or preferably 4K dash cam so you have more resolution to work with in case you need to read a license plate. | 75 | 9 | 2,031 |
7udluo | 122 | I received and email and an actual phone call from Tesla today offering help with configuring my Model 3. I am in Florida. I guess things are progressing. I pre-ordered before the release and I am an existing owner so that probably got me bumped up. I am waiting for dual motors or possibly a newer Model S if they update it this year. I asked to speak with Elon to ask him about it but they wouldn t connect me. | > I asked to speak with Elon to ask him about it but they wouldn t connect me. Be sure to ask him if you can be the next CEO when you get a chance. | I got an email today regarding my Model S. Originally was delayed until late March. Email states it s on track for late feb early March. Looks like they got their shit together | 79 | 3 | 2,032 |
7udluo | 122 | I received and email and an actual phone call from Tesla today offering help with configuring my Model 3. I am in Florida. I guess things are progressing. I pre-ordered before the release and I am an existing owner so that probably got me bumped up. I am waiting for dual motors or possibly a newer Model S if they update it this year. I asked to speak with Elon to ask him about it but they wouldn t connect me. | > I asked to speak with Elon to ask him about it but they wouldn t connect me. Be sure to ask him if you can be the next CEO when you get a chance. | Tell them to call back in 3 months maybe | 79 | 11 | 2,033 |
7udluo | 122 | I received and email and an actual phone call from Tesla today offering help with configuring my Model 3. I am in Florida. I guess things are progressing. I pre-ordered before the release and I am an existing owner so that probably got me bumped up. I am waiting for dual motors or possibly a newer Model S if they update it this year. I asked to speak with Elon to ask him about it but they wouldn t connect me. | > I asked to speak with Elon to ask him about it but they wouldn t connect me. Be sure to ask him if you can be the next CEO when you get a chance. | Make sure to update the [Google sheet!](https: docs.google.com spreadsheets d 1BWscIZyLsh42IHcj1AJNfEF-vzj-vRo-3skcCXgO_Nc edit#gid=176863077) | 79 | 14 | 2,034 |
7uirbc | 102 | February 2018 Experiences Megathread **Photos intended for this thread:** - Personal Experiences - Vehicle Sightings (S 3 X) - [Latest Model 3 VIN Spottings](https: blfire.lima-city.de ) - Order Confirmations - Delivery Day Photos - Delivery Transport Photos - Vehicle Customizations - Blogs Vlogs + Racing Videos - Vanity Plates - Toy items Baked goods \\> > **[Upload your image(s) here and share the links below](https: imgur.com upload).** < < [Last Months Megathread](https: www.reddit.com r teslamotors comments 7ndeak january_2018_experiences_megathread ) | Guys and gals I ll just come out and say it -- I m getting really damned tired of waiting. This isn t a complaint I understand Tesla is working as hard as they can but I m just so tired of waiting on this car that I ve spent the past two years thinking about. Based on my place in line I m guessing end-March is best-case-scenario. Not looking for any sympathy just wanted to vent. | For the locations that got a Model 3 to view how long did it take for the hype to die out? Don t feel like waiting hours in line to see the Model 3... | 28 | 2 | 2,035 |
7ulw3e | 159 | My friend took delivery of his Model 3 back in December. He s getting a new suspension. According to him 3 s built before 12 25 are eligible for a suspension swap because they might be experiencing an extremely harsh ride. | Good. That s one of the recurring things in user reviews that stood out as worse than it should be. | what does “extremely harsh ride” constitute? | 62 | 11 | 2,036 |
7ulw3e | 159 | My friend took delivery of his Model 3 back in December. He s getting a new suspension. According to him 3 s built before 12 25 are eligible for a suspension swap because they might be experiencing an extremely harsh ride. | Good. That s one of the recurring things in user reviews that stood out as worse than it should be. | That s the reason Tesla still don t deliver model 3 to non employee owner. Not quite ready to be someone s first Tesla or first car in general. | 62 | 22 | 2,037 |
7ulw3e | 159 | My friend took delivery of his Model 3 back in December. He s getting a new suspension. According to him 3 s built before 12 25 are eligible for a suspension swap because they might be experiencing an extremely harsh ride. | I ve seen this mentioned on TMC - seems to be the early cars. Mine is an early car and the ride can be pretty hard. I haven t decided if I care or not yet. | what does “extremely harsh ride” constitute? | 40 | 11 | 2,038 |
7uo0a5 | 52 | [Discussion]Somebody just vomited all over my Model 3. How best can I unstain the leather? The car only had 51 miles on it too. I was able to painstakingly get the vomit out of the carpets but the leather seems to have been stained by the barf. I don t know if I can use leather wipes considering it s vegan leather. I tried the wipes on the rear seats but they left noticeable streaks. I can t get a detailer for a few weeks either. Can I just continue with the leather wipes? Also the carpet smells intensely like carpet cleaner. | Make the vomiter buy you a new one. I need to remember not to let my daughter ride in my 3 for at least a few thousand miles. | Take it to a detailer | 51 | 10 | 2,039 |
7uo0a5 | 52 | [Discussion]Somebody just vomited all over my Model 3. How best can I unstain the leather? The car only had 51 miles on it too. I was able to painstakingly get the vomit out of the carpets but the leather seems to have been stained by the barf. I don t know if I can use leather wipes considering it s vegan leather. I tried the wipes on the rear seats but they left noticeable streaks. I can t get a detailer for a few weeks either. Can I just continue with the leather wipes? Also the carpet smells intensely like carpet cleaner. | Cover it with the blood of the infidel who puked. | What do you mean you can t get a detailer for a few weeks? Where do you live?? | 42 | 2 | 2,040 |
7uo0a5 | 52 | [Discussion]Somebody just vomited all over my Model 3. How best can I unstain the leather? The car only had 51 miles on it too. I was able to painstakingly get the vomit out of the carpets but the leather seems to have been stained by the barf. I don t know if I can use leather wipes considering it s vegan leather. I tried the wipes on the rear seats but they left noticeable streaks. I can t get a detailer for a few weeks either. Can I just continue with the leather wipes? Also the carpet smells intensely like carpet cleaner. | Make the vomiter buy you a new one. I need to remember not to let my daughter ride in my 3 for at least a few thousand miles. | Isopropyl alcohol. | 51 | 13 | 2,041 |
7usrbb | 83 | Model 3 Phone Key Issues Has any one else been having issues unlocking their model 3? I walk up to the car and the app says Phone key: Disconnected . It will not reconnect until I restart my phone. Tried restarting Bluetooth and the app. This happens about every other day. My phone is a LG G5 not sure if it s just an LG or Model 3 issue. Edit: I don t understand the downvotes. I m asking a serious question based on my actual experience owning the car. | It s likely this will never work 100% of the time. I m an Android app developer and familiar with working on Bluetooth. All wireless technologies have some level of unreliability but the Bluetooth stack is notoriously a pain in the butt. Tesla may have an easier time making it work on iOS devices since Apple has a much smaller pool of Bluetooth variations to optimize for. On Android however Google hasn t ever been able to release a truly stable Bluetooth software stack to developers. It s very hit or miss depending on the OEM that makes your Android phone. That said Tesla can do some things to make their implementation more reliable but it may take hardware and software modifications on their end. | In addition to what phone model is being used I think another variable in the equation is whether the phone is an Android or iPhone - from the standpoint of which version of the Tesla app is being used. Maybe the Android app is buggier than the iOS app? | 37 | 5 | 2,042 |
7usrbb | 83 | Model 3 Phone Key Issues Has any one else been having issues unlocking their model 3? I walk up to the car and the app says Phone key: Disconnected . It will not reconnect until I restart my phone. Tried restarting Bluetooth and the app. This happens about every other day. My phone is a LG G5 not sure if it s just an LG or Model 3 issue. Edit: I don t understand the downvotes. I m asking a serious question based on my actual experience owning the car. | It s likely this will never work 100% of the time. I m an Android app developer and familiar with working on Bluetooth. All wireless technologies have some level of unreliability but the Bluetooth stack is notoriously a pain in the butt. Tesla may have an easier time making it work on iOS devices since Apple has a much smaller pool of Bluetooth variations to optimize for. On Android however Google hasn t ever been able to release a truly stable Bluetooth software stack to developers. It s very hit or miss depending on the OEM that makes your Android phone. That said Tesla can do some things to make their implementation more reliable but it may take hardware and software modifications on their end. | Yeah I find it a bit hit or miss so far too this is with a OnePlus 5T. Have to end up using the app to unlock since the car won t sense I m trying to open it. | 37 | 6 | 2,043 |
7v1rjt | 290 | [PSA] Don t Touch Another Person s Car I can t believe this needs to be posted again. Under no circumstances should you ever touch another person s car. No trying out the door handles putting your fingers on the glass etc. As more Model 3s reach showrooms and service centers it becomes very enticing to check them out. But you should never touch a car without the owner s permission. This stems from a post earlier where someone went to check out newly delivered cars at a showroom. These are someone s personal property and should not be messed with even if they haven t been delivered. | A couple weeks ago I was parked outside the library with my windows rolled down. I was in my car studying when a man and his family was walking towards their car. He approached my passenger window and stuck his hand inside and felt my seat and my dashboard. He said he was waiting for his configuration date and was excited about seeing one in person. I get it they are rare right now but that doesn t excuse you to forget about proper etiquette and manners. He left oily finger prints on my seat and my dash. Not cool but I was more afraid he might ve contracted my serious flu virus and spreading it to his child. You never know what you may be sticking your hands into. Previous Tesla owners respect my space more and I usually offer anyone around me the opportunity to check the car out. Sometimes just try asking. | Apparently this holds true for spouses and kids as well | 155 | 5 | 2,044 |
7v1rjt | 290 | [PSA] Don t Touch Another Person s Car I can t believe this needs to be posted again. Under no circumstances should you ever touch another person s car. No trying out the door handles putting your fingers on the glass etc. As more Model 3s reach showrooms and service centers it becomes very enticing to check them out. But you should never touch a car without the owner s permission. This stems from a post earlier where someone went to check out newly delivered cars at a showroom. These are someone s personal property and should not be messed with even if they haven t been delivered. | A couple weeks ago I was parked outside the library with my windows rolled down. I was in my car studying when a man and his family was walking towards their car. He approached my passenger window and stuck his hand inside and felt my seat and my dashboard. He said he was waiting for his configuration date and was excited about seeing one in person. I get it they are rare right now but that doesn t excuse you to forget about proper etiquette and manners. He left oily finger prints on my seat and my dash. Not cool but I was more afraid he might ve contracted my serious flu virus and spreading it to his child. You never know what you may be sticking your hands into. Previous Tesla owners respect my space more and I usually offer anyone around me the opportunity to check the car out. Sometimes just try asking. | this goes beyond tesla too. i used to go to a C& C near where i live and id see that all the time. i was like WTF??? and these werent $50000 cars either. at no point would i ever just touch someone elses car like that. | 155 | 16 | 2,045 |
7v1rjt | 290 | [PSA] Don t Touch Another Person s Car I can t believe this needs to be posted again. Under no circumstances should you ever touch another person s car. No trying out the door handles putting your fingers on the glass etc. As more Model 3s reach showrooms and service centers it becomes very enticing to check them out. But you should never touch a car without the owner s permission. This stems from a post earlier where someone went to check out newly delivered cars at a showroom. These are someone s personal property and should not be messed with even if they haven t been delivered. | A couple weeks ago I was parked outside the library with my windows rolled down. I was in my car studying when a man and his family was walking towards their car. He approached my passenger window and stuck his hand inside and felt my seat and my dashboard. He said he was waiting for his configuration date and was excited about seeing one in person. I get it they are rare right now but that doesn t excuse you to forget about proper etiquette and manners. He left oily finger prints on my seat and my dash. Not cool but I was more afraid he might ve contracted my serious flu virus and spreading it to his child. You never know what you may be sticking your hands into. Previous Tesla owners respect my space more and I usually offer anyone around me the opportunity to check the car out. Sometimes just try asking. | Our service center is always very adamant about keeping people away from cars that aren t theirs. It s fine to look from a distance but they wouldn t let anyone interact with something that isn t theirs. | 155 | 23 | 2,046 |
7v445a | 47 | [Discussion] Tesla Model 3 in severe winter conditions I ve been putting thought into the feasibility of operating a Tesla vehicle in Northern British Columbia Canada. We frequently get -30°c temperatures up to 14 inches of snow overnight and complete whiteout conditions on the highway. I m curious as to how this would affect both standard operation and autopilot operation of the Tesla Model 3 (or others). My home also lacks a heated shop or carport so I m unsure how charging could be possible. I have seen this question raised in other areas on the internet but never in the extreme conditions I live in. | Have you seen the many relevant postings from the Tesla Model 3 road trip? Great use of facebook I d say. A couple of times the driver was cursing Tesla s range estimation because the cold weather left him with barely enough energy to make it to charging stations even after doing without any heating and defrosting. For example: https: www.facebook.com tsla3 videos 859584650879672 Would be nice to see the battery gauge give proper energy units such as kWh rather than (or in addition to) typical miles of range. | You ll definitely lose range in the winter. How much depends entirely on how cold it gets. I d say you should expect 30% range loss but in the extreme conditions you mentioned it might be upwards of 40% or more if that cold is sustained. To that end not having a carport is going to make keeping the battery warm (and therefore avoiding some range loss) a little tougher so keeping it plugged in especially if it s exposed to the elements more important. I d forget about using autopilot when visibility is poor. If you can t see the road there is zero chance the car can at least with its cameras (which is what the current system is centered around). You ll likely already know this since it s not unique to EVs so perhaps it goes without saying but use of winter tires (and even chains if legal in your area) make winter driving much more manageable. | 32 | 2 | 2,047 |
7v445a | 47 | [Discussion] Tesla Model 3 in severe winter conditions I ve been putting thought into the feasibility of operating a Tesla vehicle in Northern British Columbia Canada. We frequently get -30°c temperatures up to 14 inches of snow overnight and complete whiteout conditions on the highway. I m curious as to how this would affect both standard operation and autopilot operation of the Tesla Model 3 (or others). My home also lacks a heated shop or carport so I m unsure how charging could be possible. I have seen this question raised in other areas on the internet but never in the extreme conditions I live in. | Have you seen the many relevant postings from the Tesla Model 3 road trip? Great use of facebook I d say. A couple of times the driver was cursing Tesla s range estimation because the cold weather left him with barely enough energy to make it to charging stations even after doing without any heating and defrosting. For example: https: www.facebook.com tsla3 videos 859584650879672 Would be nice to see the battery gauge give proper energy units such as kWh rather than (or in addition to) typical miles of range. | It ll have about as much luck as we do trying to drive in winter conditions it s smart enough to not try though. We guess where the road might be and try our best not to hit the ditch. (trying to figure out where the lanes are in Winnipeg can be quite the guessing game.) Another factor against the poor auto-pilot is icy conditions. I was watching one of Bjørn s videos he was trying to drive in icy conditions and the car got very annoyed the entire nose was covered in ice and the sensors were totally obscured. (the cameras have heaters to keep the ice off them but the sonar radar don t) And as everyone else said keep it plugged in at home and let it heat itself up in the morning. If I recall it ll even heat it s battery up now. | 32 | 5 | 2,048 |
7v73gd | 39 | [Discussion] Do you charge your Tesla every night? I got my Model S 75D last December. When I took delivery the rep mentioned that I would be plugging the car in every night and that s what I have been doing with a charge limit of 80%. However this somehow feels wrong given everything I ve been brought up to know about rechargeable batteries. Also this week I ve noticed that I lost 1 mile of range. Up until now 80% would give me 204 miles but now it s at 203. I m not trying to sound like a crazy person just wanting to do everything I can to prevent loss of range battery degradation. Do you guys charge every night? | > somehow feels wrong given everything I ve been brought up to know about rechargeable batteries. You are thinking about NiMH or NiCD batteries probably. They don t like to be charged when not completely empty because of the memory effect. they degrade faster that way. Li-Ion is totally different. Basically Li-Ion batteries don t like to be totally full or totally empty (for an extended period of time). Charging doesn t really degrade a Li-Ion battery. So keeping the charge between 20-80 (some fanatics say 30-70)% is totally fine for the battery and shouldn t harm it no matter how often you charge a little bit. | Don t worry about the mile of lost range. It s likely a change in the estimation not the actual storage of your battery. There is some fluctuation as the cells come into and out of balance. | 78 | 3 | 2,049 |
7v73gd | 39 | [Discussion] Do you charge your Tesla every night? I got my Model S 75D last December. When I took delivery the rep mentioned that I would be plugging the car in every night and that s what I have been doing with a charge limit of 80%. However this somehow feels wrong given everything I ve been brought up to know about rechargeable batteries. Also this week I ve noticed that I lost 1 mile of range. Up until now 80% would give me 204 miles but now it s at 203. I m not trying to sound like a crazy person just wanting to do everything I can to prevent loss of range battery degradation. Do you guys charge every night? | > somehow feels wrong given everything I ve been brought up to know about rechargeable batteries. You are thinking about NiMH or NiCD batteries probably. They don t like to be charged when not completely empty because of the memory effect. they degrade faster that way. Li-Ion is totally different. Basically Li-Ion batteries don t like to be totally full or totally empty (for an extended period of time). Charging doesn t really degrade a Li-Ion battery. So keeping the charge between 20-80 (some fanatics say 30-70)% is totally fine for the battery and shouldn t harm it no matter how often you charge a little bit. | Plugging in every night up to 80% is totally fine and is very unlikely to do any harm to your battery. Just don t charge to 100%. I don t but only because I don t have a charger at home. | 78 | 8 | 2,050 |
7v73gd | 39 | [Discussion] Do you charge your Tesla every night? I got my Model S 75D last December. When I took delivery the rep mentioned that I would be plugging the car in every night and that s what I have been doing with a charge limit of 80%. However this somehow feels wrong given everything I ve been brought up to know about rechargeable batteries. Also this week I ve noticed that I lost 1 mile of range. Up until now 80% would give me 204 miles but now it s at 203. I m not trying to sound like a crazy person just wanting to do everything I can to prevent loss of range battery degradation. Do you guys charge every night? | > somehow feels wrong given everything I ve been brought up to know about rechargeable batteries. You are thinking about NiMH or NiCD batteries probably. They don t like to be charged when not completely empty because of the memory effect. they degrade faster that way. Li-Ion is totally different. Basically Li-Ion batteries don t like to be totally full or totally empty (for an extended period of time). Charging doesn t really degrade a Li-Ion battery. So keeping the charge between 20-80 (some fanatics say 30-70)% is totally fine for the battery and shouldn t harm it no matter how often you charge a little bit. | You re thinking of those nickel-cadmium (Ni-Cd) batteries found in old cordless phones. And other old things. Yes for those it was bad to charge up before they were fully discharged. Modern batteries including those found in smartphones and tablets and Teslas do not suffer from this inconvenience. There s literally no benefit of waiting to charge until the battery is discharged unless you consider making yourself anxious a benefit. | 78 | 17 | 2,051 |
7v86ej | 206 | I test-drove an E-class to compare AP with Mercedes Drive Pilot. Spoiler: Drive Pilot is garbage. I m getting tired of waiting on my 3 to come up for configuration so I thought I d check out the other brands driver-assist features. I ve [read a bunch](https: www.consumerreports.org mercedes-benz consumer-reports-tests-mercedes-semi-autonomous-drive-pilot-system ) about Drive Pilot so I decided to try it. A couple thoughts on the interior: I ve never sat in a Model 3 but I ve rented an S for a weekend so my comparisons will mostly be based against the S. For comfort and classiness the E-class wins easily. I have never sat in a more comfortable seat -- inside OR outside a car -- than those heavenly Mercedes seats. The materials are obviously top-notch and the screens are amazing. [The vents struck me as old-man](http: st.motortrend.com uploads sites 5 2017 04 2018-Mercedes-Benz-E400-4MATIC-Coupe-cabin-03.jpg) -- I d probably be pretty stoked on this cockpit in my 50s or 60s but not today. Although Tesla s quality isn t even close their style is so much more relevant. So Drive Pilot. There are a couple fairly non-descript buttons that (I and the salesguy _think_) enable autosteer and TACC they re [fairly hidden under the left vent](http: www.thetruthaboutcars.com wp-content uploads 2016 12 Mercedes-Benz-E400-coupe-2018.jpg). If those are on then enabling cruise control with the stalk enables autosteer and TACC. I have to mirror what pretty much every internet review s already said -- it s an incredibly confusing UI. On a well-marked straight freeway DP performed adequately. But if you want to get scared wait until a gentle curve -- DP consistently turned very wide every time nearly sideswiping the car in the neighboring lane. I was able to correct the car s trajectory without disabling DP -- a nice touch and different from AP1 when I tested it. Overall: not even close to AP1. It s an intensely confusing experience to turn it on and to know whether it s engaged. It s dangerously bad at all but the easiest situations. If advanced driver-assist features are important to you stay far away from the E-class! | Man the bezel on the E class screen looks like an HP tablet from 2011. That hugely cheapens an otherwise beautiful interior. | How responsive is the screen UI compared to the S X? | 64 | 2 | 2,052 |
7v86ej | 206 | I test-drove an E-class to compare AP with Mercedes Drive Pilot. Spoiler: Drive Pilot is garbage. I m getting tired of waiting on my 3 to come up for configuration so I thought I d check out the other brands driver-assist features. I ve [read a bunch](https: www.consumerreports.org mercedes-benz consumer-reports-tests-mercedes-semi-autonomous-drive-pilot-system ) about Drive Pilot so I decided to try it. A couple thoughts on the interior: I ve never sat in a Model 3 but I ve rented an S for a weekend so my comparisons will mostly be based against the S. For comfort and classiness the E-class wins easily. I have never sat in a more comfortable seat -- inside OR outside a car -- than those heavenly Mercedes seats. The materials are obviously top-notch and the screens are amazing. [The vents struck me as old-man](http: st.motortrend.com uploads sites 5 2017 04 2018-Mercedes-Benz-E400-4MATIC-Coupe-cabin-03.jpg) -- I d probably be pretty stoked on this cockpit in my 50s or 60s but not today. Although Tesla s quality isn t even close their style is so much more relevant. So Drive Pilot. There are a couple fairly non-descript buttons that (I and the salesguy _think_) enable autosteer and TACC they re [fairly hidden under the left vent](http: www.thetruthaboutcars.com wp-content uploads 2016 12 Mercedes-Benz-E400-coupe-2018.jpg). If those are on then enabling cruise control with the stalk enables autosteer and TACC. I have to mirror what pretty much every internet review s already said -- it s an incredibly confusing UI. On a well-marked straight freeway DP performed adequately. But if you want to get scared wait until a gentle curve -- DP consistently turned very wide every time nearly sideswiping the car in the neighboring lane. I was able to correct the car s trajectory without disabling DP -- a nice touch and different from AP1 when I tested it. Overall: not even close to AP1. It s an intensely confusing experience to turn it on and to know whether it s engaged. It s dangerously bad at all but the easiest situations. If advanced driver-assist features are important to you stay far away from the E-class! | Man the bezel on the E class screen looks like an HP tablet from 2011. That hugely cheapens an otherwise beautiful interior. | Thanks for the comparison. Not surprised that AP1 wins since Tesla is a tech company. | 64 | 4 | 2,053 |
7v86ej | 206 | I test-drove an E-class to compare AP with Mercedes Drive Pilot. Spoiler: Drive Pilot is garbage. I m getting tired of waiting on my 3 to come up for configuration so I thought I d check out the other brands driver-assist features. I ve [read a bunch](https: www.consumerreports.org mercedes-benz consumer-reports-tests-mercedes-semi-autonomous-drive-pilot-system ) about Drive Pilot so I decided to try it. A couple thoughts on the interior: I ve never sat in a Model 3 but I ve rented an S for a weekend so my comparisons will mostly be based against the S. For comfort and classiness the E-class wins easily. I have never sat in a more comfortable seat -- inside OR outside a car -- than those heavenly Mercedes seats. The materials are obviously top-notch and the screens are amazing. [The vents struck me as old-man](http: st.motortrend.com uploads sites 5 2017 04 2018-Mercedes-Benz-E400-4MATIC-Coupe-cabin-03.jpg) -- I d probably be pretty stoked on this cockpit in my 50s or 60s but not today. Although Tesla s quality isn t even close their style is so much more relevant. So Drive Pilot. There are a couple fairly non-descript buttons that (I and the salesguy _think_) enable autosteer and TACC they re [fairly hidden under the left vent](http: www.thetruthaboutcars.com wp-content uploads 2016 12 Mercedes-Benz-E400-coupe-2018.jpg). If those are on then enabling cruise control with the stalk enables autosteer and TACC. I have to mirror what pretty much every internet review s already said -- it s an incredibly confusing UI. On a well-marked straight freeway DP performed adequately. But if you want to get scared wait until a gentle curve -- DP consistently turned very wide every time nearly sideswiping the car in the neighboring lane. I was able to correct the car s trajectory without disabling DP -- a nice touch and different from AP1 when I tested it. Overall: not even close to AP1. It s an intensely confusing experience to turn it on and to know whether it s engaged. It s dangerously bad at all but the easiest situations. If advanced driver-assist features are important to you stay far away from the E-class! | Man the bezel on the E class screen looks like an HP tablet from 2011. That hugely cheapens an otherwise beautiful interior. | Spoiler alert redux - AP1 is better than AP2 :) | 64 | 16 | 2,054 |
7v8d88 | 106 | [Discussion] unplugged by Tesla employee while charging legal? Last night we stopped by a Tesla showroom and in the parking area they have spots for Tesla s to charge. They also have a sign saying that if you are charging your car please give them a call to unplug your call after it s done charging. So we parked and plugged in our car and not 15 minutes later received a notification that charging was interrupted. I walked back to confirm and yes my car was unplugged and the cable was in one of the demo cars. Our car was locked preventing removal of the cable so that means a Tesla employee remotely unlocked our car without permission to remove the cable. I am not sure how to feel about this. Has anyone heard of this happening?? https: i.imgur.com eaiqOay.jpg | As a lawyer: don t immediately think of this in legal terms. Ask the showroom people what (may have) happened. There may have been a misunderstanding an intern making a mistake who knows? Solutions are mostly met on a human not a legal level. Legal should always be a last resort. | Priority goes to company vehicles at a tesla dealership. | 95 | 3 | 2,055 |
7v8d88 | 106 | [Discussion] unplugged by Tesla employee while charging legal? Last night we stopped by a Tesla showroom and in the parking area they have spots for Tesla s to charge. They also have a sign saying that if you are charging your car please give them a call to unplug your call after it s done charging. So we parked and plugged in our car and not 15 minutes later received a notification that charging was interrupted. I walked back to confirm and yes my car was unplugged and the cable was in one of the demo cars. Our car was locked preventing removal of the cable so that means a Tesla employee remotely unlocked our car without permission to remove the cable. I am not sure how to feel about this. Has anyone heard of this happening?? https: i.imgur.com eaiqOay.jpg | As a lawyer: don t immediately think of this in legal terms. Ask the showroom people what (may have) happened. There may have been a misunderstanding an intern making a mistake who knows? Solutions are mostly met on a human not a legal level. Legal should always be a last resort. | If that s Montgomery mall in Bethesda MD... I don t think that place is listed for the public to charge at. | 95 | 3 | 2,056 |
7v8d88 | 106 | [Discussion] unplugged by Tesla employee while charging legal? Last night we stopped by a Tesla showroom and in the parking area they have spots for Tesla s to charge. They also have a sign saying that if you are charging your car please give them a call to unplug your call after it s done charging. So we parked and plugged in our car and not 15 minutes later received a notification that charging was interrupted. I walked back to confirm and yes my car was unplugged and the cable was in one of the demo cars. Our car was locked preventing removal of the cable so that means a Tesla employee remotely unlocked our car without permission to remove the cable. I am not sure how to feel about this. Has anyone heard of this happening?? https: i.imgur.com eaiqOay.jpg | As a lawyer: don t immediately think of this in legal terms. Ask the showroom people what (may have) happened. There may have been a misunderstanding an intern making a mistake who knows? Solutions are mostly met on a human not a legal level. Legal should always be a last resort. | What did the service manager say? | 95 | 3 | 2,057 |
7vbmq1 | 53 | Why the Bolt doesn t sell as much as a Model 3 I m sick of people saying the Bolt is basically the same car as the Model 3 *but available today*. No it is not and let s not pretend it is. Let s start with a simple question: # What s special about the Bolt if it had a petrol engine? Meanwhile the Model 3 even if it was petrol would offer: * **Attractive luxurious-looking design.** Design is something subjective but we can at least agree that it looks like a Model S a car costing twice as much combined with a nose that looks like a Porsche Panamera also a car double the price. The Bolt looks like a bloated version of a Chevy Spark a 10k car literally the cheapest GM offering today. * **Unique interior design.** I m not going to say it s better or worse than the competitors because its a matter of personal preference as well but I m going to say its a minimalism design that we have never seen before. * **Rear window that goes further than other cars**. Same here you may not like it but you can t argue that it s something new. * **Alcantara wood panel in the interior.** This signifies a more luxurious interior. I haven t been in either cars but I wouldn t be surprised the plastic material is better on the 3 than the Bolt * **Significantly smoother larger touchscreen.** I would argue it is better than Mercedes S-class Audi A8 even Model S and X or actually *literally any car*. The Bolt has something similar to other economy GM vehicles * **Autopilot**. Hardware that is ready for full self driving * **0-60 time in 5 seconds** * **RWD (or AWD)** as opposed to FWD * **Multi-link rear suspension** (fully independent) vs. torsion beam on the Bolt (same kind of suspension as Ford Fiesta less advanced than Ford Focus) * And with it comes **sporty handling characteristics** as the reviewers mentioned. * Extra space in form of **frunk** ____________________________________ In short even if the Model 3 was a petrol like every other car some people would still happily pay 35k for it for the features mentioned above. How many would pay that money for a Bolt? Would you pay 35k for a car with torsion beam rear suspension? | Bolt EV owner (lease) here. I rented a 1 week old Model 3 this weekend to compare them. I don t really give a rat s ass about absolute speed and performance. All I care about is having an EV that is fun to drive and handles my 80 mile commute and has enough room for 2 car seats. I ve been driving short range EV s for years and reserved my Model 3 on 3 31 16 like alot of us here. The Model 3 is definitely more of a performance car and it does handle much much better but the Bolt actually does some things better than the Model 3 and spending $300 on Turo to rent the Model 3 was probably the wisest money I ve ever spent. Believe it or not for me going from the Bolt to a Model 3 would actually involve some compromises (*shudder*). The regen braking is the biggest for me. The Bolt s is simply better. It s more aggressive without being jarring. It allows you to drive with one pedal never needing to move your foot over the brake. Its zen-like which sounds silly until you actually drive it and get used to it. Second big thing for me is Android Auto. I actually use it every day and as much as the Model 3 s screen is amazing not being able to have that integration sucks. Tesla truly does remind me of Apple from a few years ago. They want you to not have choice. They know best and having choice is wrong for the user. Third thing is that the Bolt actually DOES have more interior passenger room than the Model 3. I couldn t get our rear facing child seat in the seat behind the driver with the driver seat in the correct position. I can in the Bolt. There s no difference in width in the rear seat between the two but there is more combined legroom in the Bolt between the front and rear seats which I was shocked by. Other little things I prefer having a heated steering wheel in the Bolt. Having two rear view cameras in the Bolt one being integrated into the rearview mirror with the push of a button. The surround view top down camera when backing into spaces or parallel parking is also extremely cool and useful in the Bolt. But the things I thought I would absolutely love like the glass roof and the open feel of the cabin were nullified for me by how dark the tint is on the roof. I absolutely hated how dark it felt inside the Model 3 versus what my expectation had been. And the autopilot did not feel ready for prime time. I d experienced AP1 in a Model S that my neighbor let me borrow a few years ago and commute to work in. The AP2 in the Model 3 doesn t feel quite as good. It moves around way too much in the lane and had way too many close calls where I had to take over. If I m going to drive one in traffic I d choose the Bolt right now because of the one pedal driving. The Model 3 is an amazing drivers car. But it s also a $55k car as configured. It handles so damn well and just feels so planted and controlled. The Bolt by comparison feels dangerous but fun. There s so much torque on the Bolt that it feels out of control sometimes when you push it but to me that gets my heart rate up and makes it actually feel more fun to drive in certain situations. I think the Bolt would actually be better for autocrossing. | You don t even mention supercharging. The Bolt lacks the infrastructure for long distance driving. The Model 3 goes coast to coast with ease. | 76 | 2 | 2,058 |
7vbmq1 | 53 | Why the Bolt doesn t sell as much as a Model 3 I m sick of people saying the Bolt is basically the same car as the Model 3 *but available today*. No it is not and let s not pretend it is. Let s start with a simple question: # What s special about the Bolt if it had a petrol engine? Meanwhile the Model 3 even if it was petrol would offer: * **Attractive luxurious-looking design.** Design is something subjective but we can at least agree that it looks like a Model S a car costing twice as much combined with a nose that looks like a Porsche Panamera also a car double the price. The Bolt looks like a bloated version of a Chevy Spark a 10k car literally the cheapest GM offering today. * **Unique interior design.** I m not going to say it s better or worse than the competitors because its a matter of personal preference as well but I m going to say its a minimalism design that we have never seen before. * **Rear window that goes further than other cars**. Same here you may not like it but you can t argue that it s something new. * **Alcantara wood panel in the interior.** This signifies a more luxurious interior. I haven t been in either cars but I wouldn t be surprised the plastic material is better on the 3 than the Bolt * **Significantly smoother larger touchscreen.** I would argue it is better than Mercedes S-class Audi A8 even Model S and X or actually *literally any car*. The Bolt has something similar to other economy GM vehicles * **Autopilot**. Hardware that is ready for full self driving * **0-60 time in 5 seconds** * **RWD (or AWD)** as opposed to FWD * **Multi-link rear suspension** (fully independent) vs. torsion beam on the Bolt (same kind of suspension as Ford Fiesta less advanced than Ford Focus) * And with it comes **sporty handling characteristics** as the reviewers mentioned. * Extra space in form of **frunk** ____________________________________ In short even if the Model 3 was a petrol like every other car some people would still happily pay 35k for it for the features mentioned above. How many would pay that money for a Bolt? Would you pay 35k for a car with torsion beam rear suspension? | Bolt EV owner (lease) here. I rented a 1 week old Model 3 this weekend to compare them. I don t really give a rat s ass about absolute speed and performance. All I care about is having an EV that is fun to drive and handles my 80 mile commute and has enough room for 2 car seats. I ve been driving short range EV s for years and reserved my Model 3 on 3 31 16 like alot of us here. The Model 3 is definitely more of a performance car and it does handle much much better but the Bolt actually does some things better than the Model 3 and spending $300 on Turo to rent the Model 3 was probably the wisest money I ve ever spent. Believe it or not for me going from the Bolt to a Model 3 would actually involve some compromises (*shudder*). The regen braking is the biggest for me. The Bolt s is simply better. It s more aggressive without being jarring. It allows you to drive with one pedal never needing to move your foot over the brake. Its zen-like which sounds silly until you actually drive it and get used to it. Second big thing for me is Android Auto. I actually use it every day and as much as the Model 3 s screen is amazing not being able to have that integration sucks. Tesla truly does remind me of Apple from a few years ago. They want you to not have choice. They know best and having choice is wrong for the user. Third thing is that the Bolt actually DOES have more interior passenger room than the Model 3. I couldn t get our rear facing child seat in the seat behind the driver with the driver seat in the correct position. I can in the Bolt. There s no difference in width in the rear seat between the two but there is more combined legroom in the Bolt between the front and rear seats which I was shocked by. Other little things I prefer having a heated steering wheel in the Bolt. Having two rear view cameras in the Bolt one being integrated into the rearview mirror with the push of a button. The surround view top down camera when backing into spaces or parallel parking is also extremely cool and useful in the Bolt. But the things I thought I would absolutely love like the glass roof and the open feel of the cabin were nullified for me by how dark the tint is on the roof. I absolutely hated how dark it felt inside the Model 3 versus what my expectation had been. And the autopilot did not feel ready for prime time. I d experienced AP1 in a Model S that my neighbor let me borrow a few years ago and commute to work in. The AP2 in the Model 3 doesn t feel quite as good. It moves around way too much in the lane and had way too many close calls where I had to take over. If I m going to drive one in traffic I d choose the Bolt right now because of the one pedal driving. The Model 3 is an amazing drivers car. But it s also a $55k car as configured. It handles so damn well and just feels so planted and controlled. The Bolt by comparison feels dangerous but fun. There s so much torque on the Bolt that it feels out of control sometimes when you push it but to me that gets my heart rate up and makes it actually feel more fun to drive in certain situations. I think the Bolt would actually be better for autocrossing. | The Bolt is more like a Sonic or Trax than a Spark but the point still stands. As an ICE the Bolt would only sell at $20-25k. As an ICE the Model 3 might still fetch $35-45k thanks to tech features and styling. Of course as EVs the other big reason the Model 3 has 500k reservations while the Bolt requires discounted leases to maintain 3000 per month is because the Bolt even with 240 mile range and DC “fast charging” cannot be used for long distance travel without being a pain in the butt. Our annual road trip takes 11 hours in our ICE. It will take 12.5 in the LR Model 3. It would take 14 hours in the standard Model 3 and would take 17+ hours in the Bolt assuming I could find DC charging stations that weren t too far off track worked and weren t in use (since there are usually only a couple stalls). It s already going to be pushing it to add 1.5 hours but autopilot will make it easier. No way I d be ok adding 6 hours to the trip. | 76 | 2 | 2,059 |
7vbmq1 | 53 | Why the Bolt doesn t sell as much as a Model 3 I m sick of people saying the Bolt is basically the same car as the Model 3 *but available today*. No it is not and let s not pretend it is. Let s start with a simple question: # What s special about the Bolt if it had a petrol engine? Meanwhile the Model 3 even if it was petrol would offer: * **Attractive luxurious-looking design.** Design is something subjective but we can at least agree that it looks like a Model S a car costing twice as much combined with a nose that looks like a Porsche Panamera also a car double the price. The Bolt looks like a bloated version of a Chevy Spark a 10k car literally the cheapest GM offering today. * **Unique interior design.** I m not going to say it s better or worse than the competitors because its a matter of personal preference as well but I m going to say its a minimalism design that we have never seen before. * **Rear window that goes further than other cars**. Same here you may not like it but you can t argue that it s something new. * **Alcantara wood panel in the interior.** This signifies a more luxurious interior. I haven t been in either cars but I wouldn t be surprised the plastic material is better on the 3 than the Bolt * **Significantly smoother larger touchscreen.** I would argue it is better than Mercedes S-class Audi A8 even Model S and X or actually *literally any car*. The Bolt has something similar to other economy GM vehicles * **Autopilot**. Hardware that is ready for full self driving * **0-60 time in 5 seconds** * **RWD (or AWD)** as opposed to FWD * **Multi-link rear suspension** (fully independent) vs. torsion beam on the Bolt (same kind of suspension as Ford Fiesta less advanced than Ford Focus) * And with it comes **sporty handling characteristics** as the reviewers mentioned. * Extra space in form of **frunk** ____________________________________ In short even if the Model 3 was a petrol like every other car some people would still happily pay 35k for it for the features mentioned above. How many would pay that money for a Bolt? Would you pay 35k for a car with torsion beam rear suspension? | Bolt EV owner (lease) here. I rented a 1 week old Model 3 this weekend to compare them. I don t really give a rat s ass about absolute speed and performance. All I care about is having an EV that is fun to drive and handles my 80 mile commute and has enough room for 2 car seats. I ve been driving short range EV s for years and reserved my Model 3 on 3 31 16 like alot of us here. The Model 3 is definitely more of a performance car and it does handle much much better but the Bolt actually does some things better than the Model 3 and spending $300 on Turo to rent the Model 3 was probably the wisest money I ve ever spent. Believe it or not for me going from the Bolt to a Model 3 would actually involve some compromises (*shudder*). The regen braking is the biggest for me. The Bolt s is simply better. It s more aggressive without being jarring. It allows you to drive with one pedal never needing to move your foot over the brake. Its zen-like which sounds silly until you actually drive it and get used to it. Second big thing for me is Android Auto. I actually use it every day and as much as the Model 3 s screen is amazing not being able to have that integration sucks. Tesla truly does remind me of Apple from a few years ago. They want you to not have choice. They know best and having choice is wrong for the user. Third thing is that the Bolt actually DOES have more interior passenger room than the Model 3. I couldn t get our rear facing child seat in the seat behind the driver with the driver seat in the correct position. I can in the Bolt. There s no difference in width in the rear seat between the two but there is more combined legroom in the Bolt between the front and rear seats which I was shocked by. Other little things I prefer having a heated steering wheel in the Bolt. Having two rear view cameras in the Bolt one being integrated into the rearview mirror with the push of a button. The surround view top down camera when backing into spaces or parallel parking is also extremely cool and useful in the Bolt. But the things I thought I would absolutely love like the glass roof and the open feel of the cabin were nullified for me by how dark the tint is on the roof. I absolutely hated how dark it felt inside the Model 3 versus what my expectation had been. And the autopilot did not feel ready for prime time. I d experienced AP1 in a Model S that my neighbor let me borrow a few years ago and commute to work in. The AP2 in the Model 3 doesn t feel quite as good. It moves around way too much in the lane and had way too many close calls where I had to take over. If I m going to drive one in traffic I d choose the Bolt right now because of the one pedal driving. The Model 3 is an amazing drivers car. But it s also a $55k car as configured. It handles so damn well and just feels so planted and controlled. The Bolt by comparison feels dangerous but fun. There s so much torque on the Bolt that it feels out of control sometimes when you push it but to me that gets my heart rate up and makes it actually feel more fun to drive in certain situations. I think the Bolt would actually be better for autocrossing. | The Bolt feels like you are in Economy class on a low cost airline with $30k in extra fees (for the battery). The seats in the Bolt are actually narrower than economy class seats you find in low cost airlines. The cheap feeling plastics feel similar to children s toy cars. The Model 3 feels like Business class. You might be paying a bit of a premium price but you can see and feel that it s an upgrade. If you compare features you will see the Model 3 is actually about the same price when specified with similar options. It also has a glass roof and autopilot feature that are not available on the Bolt. Plus you get access to the Supercharger network. I ve had our Model 3 for a week now and test drove the Bolt last year. They are totally different cars. The Bolt we drove was a premier with msrp of $44k. They charge extra for anything nice and are included in a Model 3. Fast charging was $750 option and we think that s essential. The Bolt drives like an economy car front wheel drive not much grip doesn t like cornering. The Model 3 clearly benchmarked BMW 3 series for the driving dynamics. | 76 | 2 | 2,060 |
7vf1o9 | 224 | [Discussion] Owners: would you want Apple CarPlay and Android Auto on your Tesla? How would you feel about those systems? Do you think they would feel like a downgrade from the current one? Are you satisfied with the integration between the system and the smartphones? | Yes. Who are you? Are you just joining the party? The media player and nav are sub-par compared to what else is out there. #mediaplayerfixes2018 | If T would just pull texts for pop up messages I d be fine. CarPlay is nice but still not a game changer. | 133 | 2 | 2,061 |
7vf1o9 | 224 | [Discussion] Owners: would you want Apple CarPlay and Android Auto on your Tesla? How would you feel about those systems? Do you think they would feel like a downgrade from the current one? Are you satisfied with the integration between the system and the smartphones? | Yes. Who are you? Are you just joining the party? The media player and nav are sub-par compared to what else is out there. #mediaplayerfixes2018 | There has been quite a few threads about this already. | 133 | 3 | 2,062 |
7vf1o9 | 224 | [Discussion] Owners: would you want Apple CarPlay and Android Auto on your Tesla? How would you feel about those systems? Do you think they would feel like a downgrade from the current one? Are you satisfied with the integration between the system and the smartphones? | Yes. Who are you? Are you just joining the party? The media player and nav are sub-par compared to what else is out there. #mediaplayerfixes2018 | Yes I would like CarPlay but Tesla have stated it isn t happening so it s a moot point. | 133 | 3 | 2,063 |
7vqvxp | 30 | EV 2018 tax credit Just filed for my 2018 taxes however the 8936 for EV has not been released yet. Speaking to my tax advisor I was told they still haven t released it and should be “any day now”. Those of you in Tax field or have already filed do you have insight as to when the form should be released? Is there something I am missing. Edit: for those saying estimated date was the 15th of February I have not seen the new form come out. Just checked today on IRS website | Don t you mean 2017 taxes? | I never got any tax forms I just claimed the credit and entered the VIN and stuff. | 31 | 2 | 2,064 |
7vyty3 | 227 | Tesla (TSLA) fourth quarter 2017 results and conference call - Official Thread Tesla (TSLA) is set to release its fourth quarter 2017 financial results today February 7 after market close. As usual the release of the results will be followed by a conference call and Q& A with Tesla s management at 2:30pm Pacific Time (5:30pm Eastern Time). I will add the shareholders letter here as soon as it becomes available which should be a few minutes after market close. * [Tesla Conference Call](https: edge.media-server.com m6 p iufenmyd) * [Tesla shareholder letter](http: files.shareholder.com downloads ABEA-4CW8X0 5975306593x0x970775 34923C55-6853-4223-ADDA-CB3CDC1B919F TSLA_Update_Letter_2017-4Q.pdf) Please keep the posts related to the earnings in this thread ____________ **Deliveries** As usual Tesla s deliveries drive most of its earning results since vehicle sales represent the automaker s main revenue stream at the moment. Tesla already confirmed its fourth quarter 2017 deliveries: 29 870 vehicles – a new record for the company. They ended up delivering 15 200 Model S vehicles 13 120 Model X vehicles and 1 550 Model 3 vehicles. Those numbers are adjusted slightly during the earnings. Additionally 2 520 Model S and X vehicles and 860 Model 3 vehicles were in transit to customers at the end of the quarter according to the company. Here are Tesla quarterly global deliveries of all current vehicles in production since their launches: https: i.imgur.com Y6PdSQt.jpeg **Revenue** Wall Street s revenue consensus is $3.299 billion for the quarter and Estimize the financial estimate crowdsourcing website predicts almost the same result: $3.302 billion in revenue. It would be a record quarter for revenue if those estimates are accurate. The record delivery numbers for Model S Model X and Model 3 resulted in this increase on the results quarter-to-quarter from Tesla s actual revenue of $2.985 billion during the last quarter which was also a record. The predictions for Tesla s revenue over the past 2 years – Estimize predictions in blue – Wall Street consensus in grey – Actual results in green: https: i.imgur.com gzP1Mqk.jpeg **Earnings** Earnings per share or rather loss per share is expected to plunge again for the quarter. Like for revenue the expectations are again close for both the street and retail investors. The Wall Street consensus is a loss of $3.19 per share for the quarter while Estimize s prediction is a loss $3.11 per share. Earnings per share over the last 2 years – Estimize predictions in blue – Wall Street consensus in grey – Actual results in green: https: i.imgur.com Fa2Wwfc.jpeg | Key parts of the call that I caught: * They have a fully automated system to assemble battery modules working in Germany. They now need to dissassemble it send it to the Gigafactory then reassemble it. They plan to do that in March. At that point they will be able to ramp up to 2 500 Model 3 cars produced per week. They re still not using a fully automated system for assembling the battery modules at the Gigafactory which is the main bottleneck right now. * The next bottleneck will then be their automated system for transporting parts to the assembly line at the Fremont factory. The conveyor system is on the first floor and transports parts from warehouses up to the assembly line on the second floor. I didn t hear an exact timeline on how long it will take to get that update working but they still plan to hit 5 000 cars produced per week by the end of Q2 so it would have to be before then. * In order to ramp up to 10 000 cars per week they ll need to update the south paint facility at Fremont as they ve already updated the north paint area in order to support work on the Model 3. They don t expect to hit 10 000 per week until sometime next year. It will take additional capital expenditures next year to reach that production rate. * They expect to eventually produce 1 million Model Ys per year. But they don t want to give many details on it yet not even whether they d need a new factory to accomplish that or if the current Fremont factory could be sufficient. They speculate a little on how they could further increase capacity at the factory such as by building a tunnel between the chair factory a half mile away to the Fremont facility with a conveyor belt that could carry the chairs over. They believe getting parts to the factory will be the primarily limitation of the Fremont factory s capacity for the foreseeable future. * Production hell much more painful than they anticipated. They worked on Thanksgiving and have been working 7 days per week without vacations. Elon said they must avoid that when ramping up the Model Y--it was far too painful for the Model 3 even by his standards of pain tolerance from overworking. * They re about 6 months behind where they wanted to be on the production rate of the Model 3 (but that s not really news we already knew that). * They wouldn t speculate on exactly what production rate will be enough for them to break even on the Model 3. Due to the slower ramp up than anticipated it sounds like they may need a higher rate than originally planned in order to offset the depreciation costs of the new equipment they ve bought for manufacturing it. I think I heard them say that they originally planned on breaking even at 5 000 per week (when they thought they d reach that rate by the end of 2017). | I am surprise we don t have a slack channel. It s almost time!!! | 103 | 2 | 2,065 |
7vyty3 | 227 | Tesla (TSLA) fourth quarter 2017 results and conference call - Official Thread Tesla (TSLA) is set to release its fourth quarter 2017 financial results today February 7 after market close. As usual the release of the results will be followed by a conference call and Q& A with Tesla s management at 2:30pm Pacific Time (5:30pm Eastern Time). I will add the shareholders letter here as soon as it becomes available which should be a few minutes after market close. * [Tesla Conference Call](https: edge.media-server.com m6 p iufenmyd) * [Tesla shareholder letter](http: files.shareholder.com downloads ABEA-4CW8X0 5975306593x0x970775 34923C55-6853-4223-ADDA-CB3CDC1B919F TSLA_Update_Letter_2017-4Q.pdf) Please keep the posts related to the earnings in this thread ____________ **Deliveries** As usual Tesla s deliveries drive most of its earning results since vehicle sales represent the automaker s main revenue stream at the moment. Tesla already confirmed its fourth quarter 2017 deliveries: 29 870 vehicles – a new record for the company. They ended up delivering 15 200 Model S vehicles 13 120 Model X vehicles and 1 550 Model 3 vehicles. Those numbers are adjusted slightly during the earnings. Additionally 2 520 Model S and X vehicles and 860 Model 3 vehicles were in transit to customers at the end of the quarter according to the company. Here are Tesla quarterly global deliveries of all current vehicles in production since their launches: https: i.imgur.com Y6PdSQt.jpeg **Revenue** Wall Street s revenue consensus is $3.299 billion for the quarter and Estimize the financial estimate crowdsourcing website predicts almost the same result: $3.302 billion in revenue. It would be a record quarter for revenue if those estimates are accurate. The record delivery numbers for Model S Model X and Model 3 resulted in this increase on the results quarter-to-quarter from Tesla s actual revenue of $2.985 billion during the last quarter which was also a record. The predictions for Tesla s revenue over the past 2 years – Estimize predictions in blue – Wall Street consensus in grey – Actual results in green: https: i.imgur.com gzP1Mqk.jpeg **Earnings** Earnings per share or rather loss per share is expected to plunge again for the quarter. Like for revenue the expectations are again close for both the street and retail investors. The Wall Street consensus is a loss of $3.19 per share for the quarter while Estimize s prediction is a loss $3.11 per share. Earnings per share over the last 2 years – Estimize predictions in blue – Wall Street consensus in grey – Actual results in green: https: i.imgur.com Fa2Wwfc.jpeg | Key parts of the call that I caught: * They have a fully automated system to assemble battery modules working in Germany. They now need to dissassemble it send it to the Gigafactory then reassemble it. They plan to do that in March. At that point they will be able to ramp up to 2 500 Model 3 cars produced per week. They re still not using a fully automated system for assembling the battery modules at the Gigafactory which is the main bottleneck right now. * The next bottleneck will then be their automated system for transporting parts to the assembly line at the Fremont factory. The conveyor system is on the first floor and transports parts from warehouses up to the assembly line on the second floor. I didn t hear an exact timeline on how long it will take to get that update working but they still plan to hit 5 000 cars produced per week by the end of Q2 so it would have to be before then. * In order to ramp up to 10 000 cars per week they ll need to update the south paint facility at Fremont as they ve already updated the north paint area in order to support work on the Model 3. They don t expect to hit 10 000 per week until sometime next year. It will take additional capital expenditures next year to reach that production rate. * They expect to eventually produce 1 million Model Ys per year. But they don t want to give many details on it yet not even whether they d need a new factory to accomplish that or if the current Fremont factory could be sufficient. They speculate a little on how they could further increase capacity at the factory such as by building a tunnel between the chair factory a half mile away to the Fremont facility with a conveyor belt that could carry the chairs over. They believe getting parts to the factory will be the primarily limitation of the Fremont factory s capacity for the foreseeable future. * Production hell much more painful than they anticipated. They worked on Thanksgiving and have been working 7 days per week without vacations. Elon said they must avoid that when ramping up the Model Y--it was far too painful for the Model 3 even by his standards of pain tolerance from overworking. * They re about 6 months behind where they wanted to be on the production rate of the Model 3 (but that s not really news we already knew that). * They wouldn t speculate on exactly what production rate will be enough for them to break even on the Model 3. Due to the slower ramp up than anticipated it sounds like they may need a higher rate than originally planned in order to offset the depreciation costs of the new equipment they ve bought for manufacturing it. I think I heard them say that they originally planned on breaking even at 5 000 per week (when they thought they d reach that rate by the end of 2017). | Looks like a beat boys | 103 | 2 | 2,066 |
7vyty3 | 227 | Tesla (TSLA) fourth quarter 2017 results and conference call - Official Thread Tesla (TSLA) is set to release its fourth quarter 2017 financial results today February 7 after market close. As usual the release of the results will be followed by a conference call and Q& A with Tesla s management at 2:30pm Pacific Time (5:30pm Eastern Time). I will add the shareholders letter here as soon as it becomes available which should be a few minutes after market close. * [Tesla Conference Call](https: edge.media-server.com m6 p iufenmyd) * [Tesla shareholder letter](http: files.shareholder.com downloads ABEA-4CW8X0 5975306593x0x970775 34923C55-6853-4223-ADDA-CB3CDC1B919F TSLA_Update_Letter_2017-4Q.pdf) Please keep the posts related to the earnings in this thread ____________ **Deliveries** As usual Tesla s deliveries drive most of its earning results since vehicle sales represent the automaker s main revenue stream at the moment. Tesla already confirmed its fourth quarter 2017 deliveries: 29 870 vehicles – a new record for the company. They ended up delivering 15 200 Model S vehicles 13 120 Model X vehicles and 1 550 Model 3 vehicles. Those numbers are adjusted slightly during the earnings. Additionally 2 520 Model S and X vehicles and 860 Model 3 vehicles were in transit to customers at the end of the quarter according to the company. Here are Tesla quarterly global deliveries of all current vehicles in production since their launches: https: i.imgur.com Y6PdSQt.jpeg **Revenue** Wall Street s revenue consensus is $3.299 billion for the quarter and Estimize the financial estimate crowdsourcing website predicts almost the same result: $3.302 billion in revenue. It would be a record quarter for revenue if those estimates are accurate. The record delivery numbers for Model S Model X and Model 3 resulted in this increase on the results quarter-to-quarter from Tesla s actual revenue of $2.985 billion during the last quarter which was also a record. The predictions for Tesla s revenue over the past 2 years – Estimize predictions in blue – Wall Street consensus in grey – Actual results in green: https: i.imgur.com gzP1Mqk.jpeg **Earnings** Earnings per share or rather loss per share is expected to plunge again for the quarter. Like for revenue the expectations are again close for both the street and retail investors. The Wall Street consensus is a loss of $3.19 per share for the quarter while Estimize s prediction is a loss $3.11 per share. Earnings per share over the last 2 years – Estimize predictions in blue – Wall Street consensus in grey – Actual results in green: https: i.imgur.com Fa2Wwfc.jpeg | Key parts of the call that I caught: * They have a fully automated system to assemble battery modules working in Germany. They now need to dissassemble it send it to the Gigafactory then reassemble it. They plan to do that in March. At that point they will be able to ramp up to 2 500 Model 3 cars produced per week. They re still not using a fully automated system for assembling the battery modules at the Gigafactory which is the main bottleneck right now. * The next bottleneck will then be their automated system for transporting parts to the assembly line at the Fremont factory. The conveyor system is on the first floor and transports parts from warehouses up to the assembly line on the second floor. I didn t hear an exact timeline on how long it will take to get that update working but they still plan to hit 5 000 cars produced per week by the end of Q2 so it would have to be before then. * In order to ramp up to 10 000 cars per week they ll need to update the south paint facility at Fremont as they ve already updated the north paint area in order to support work on the Model 3. They don t expect to hit 10 000 per week until sometime next year. It will take additional capital expenditures next year to reach that production rate. * They expect to eventually produce 1 million Model Ys per year. But they don t want to give many details on it yet not even whether they d need a new factory to accomplish that or if the current Fremont factory could be sufficient. They speculate a little on how they could further increase capacity at the factory such as by building a tunnel between the chair factory a half mile away to the Fremont facility with a conveyor belt that could carry the chairs over. They believe getting parts to the factory will be the primarily limitation of the Fremont factory s capacity for the foreseeable future. * Production hell much more painful than they anticipated. They worked on Thanksgiving and have been working 7 days per week without vacations. Elon said they must avoid that when ramping up the Model Y--it was far too painful for the Model 3 even by his standards of pain tolerance from overworking. * They re about 6 months behind where they wanted to be on the production rate of the Model 3 (but that s not really news we already knew that). * They wouldn t speculate on exactly what production rate will be enough for them to break even on the Model 3. Due to the slower ramp up than anticipated it sounds like they may need a higher rate than originally planned in order to offset the depreciation costs of the new equipment they ve bought for manufacturing it. I think I heard them say that they originally planned on breaking even at 5 000 per week (when they thought they d reach that rate by the end of 2017). | https: www.reddit-stream.com r teslamotors comments 7vyty3 tesla_tsla_fourth_quarter_2017_results_and for streaming update. | 103 | 2 | 2,067 |
7w5oc4 | 114 | Before you cancel ... ... check out [this](https: i.imgur.com jGGxSq1.jpg) latest estimate for Canada. It shows mid-2018 for first production and AWD. That means they will try very hard to keep the $7 500 until the end of this year instead of 30 Sep 2018. It also means AWD will start production sooner than expected. The AWD version of the Model 3 is going to be amazing. Even the current RWD Model 3 LR has the exact same range as the Model S 100D based on EPA dyno test scores. They both scored 455 miles at 48 mph. The Model 3 LRD will have more range than the Model S 100D. Check out my S vs 3 comparison [here](https: www.reddit.com r teslamotors comments 7pek5p model_s_vs_model_3 ). On Aug 3rd 2017 Tesla had 455 000 active reservations ([source](https: electrek.co 2017 08 03 tesla-model-3-elon-musk-production-reservations )). I estimate 506 000 active reservations now. Canceling and reserving again when you want the car might not be the best idea. Update: Check out [THIS](https: teslamotorsclub.com tmc attachments upload_2018-2-8_21-9-21-png.279013 ) other Canada estimate. Look at the reservation date. Even people who reserved in 2017 in Canada are getting their car soon (May or June 2018). | San Jose CA 3 31 in-store at noon non-owner. My estimator shows [Late 2018 for both SR and AWD](https: i.imgur.com uAlloxK.png). I think they re taking this approach for multiple reasons that are all related to each other: 1. Continue to make higher margin cars to make up for the lower production values. 2. Get the kinks out of adding in AWD before hitting the massive number of people that want the base model to prevent a dip in production when they do make that transition. 3. Push back the tax credit further by using Canada owners as test dummies of that AWD production lines rather than opening up to the masses. EDIT: This is a PR play IMO. Tesla would likely struggle to raise revenue if they began SR production without reaching peak production numbers. They re putting all the AP hardware on every vehicle and software-disabling them. That s expensive and makes the SR an even lower-margin vehicle. To make money on SR and to continue to increase revenue overall continuously they need a healthy mix of LR AWD until they can actually produce high volumes. Solid business decisions IMO... | Or it means they haven t updated Canada yet... | 36 | 3 | 2,068 |
7w5oc4 | 114 | Before you cancel ... ... check out [this](https: i.imgur.com jGGxSq1.jpg) latest estimate for Canada. It shows mid-2018 for first production and AWD. That means they will try very hard to keep the $7 500 until the end of this year instead of 30 Sep 2018. It also means AWD will start production sooner than expected. The AWD version of the Model 3 is going to be amazing. Even the current RWD Model 3 LR has the exact same range as the Model S 100D based on EPA dyno test scores. They both scored 455 miles at 48 mph. The Model 3 LRD will have more range than the Model S 100D. Check out my S vs 3 comparison [here](https: www.reddit.com r teslamotors comments 7pek5p model_s_vs_model_3 ). On Aug 3rd 2017 Tesla had 455 000 active reservations ([source](https: electrek.co 2017 08 03 tesla-model-3-elon-musk-production-reservations )). I estimate 506 000 active reservations now. Canceling and reserving again when you want the car might not be the best idea. Update: Check out [THIS](https: teslamotorsclub.com tmc attachments upload_2018-2-8_21-9-21-png.279013 ) other Canada estimate. Look at the reservation date. Even people who reserved in 2017 in Canada are getting their car soon (May or June 2018). | San Jose CA 3 31 in-store at noon non-owner. My estimator shows [Late 2018 for both SR and AWD](https: i.imgur.com uAlloxK.png). I think they re taking this approach for multiple reasons that are all related to each other: 1. Continue to make higher margin cars to make up for the lower production values. 2. Get the kinks out of adding in AWD before hitting the massive number of people that want the base model to prevent a dip in production when they do make that transition. 3. Push back the tax credit further by using Canada owners as test dummies of that AWD production lines rather than opening up to the masses. EDIT: This is a PR play IMO. Tesla would likely struggle to raise revenue if they began SR production without reaching peak production numbers. They re putting all the AP hardware on every vehicle and software-disabling them. That s expensive and makes the SR an even lower-margin vehicle. To make money on SR and to continue to increase revenue overall continuously they need a healthy mix of LR AWD until they can actually produce high volumes. Solid business decisions IMO... | Interesting. I got the delayed email this morning. US non-owner placed 4 1 16. [Here s my estimator.](https: imgur.com WSiASKh) First Production was previously Feb-March. EDIT: Why would this be downvoted...? | 36 | 10 | 2,069 |
7w64ms | 502 | [Discussion] Let s talk about bad faith for a minute... My apologies in advance for the wall of text but there s something we need to discuss. A recurring theme on this sub prompted by bad news from Tesla (particularly schedule delays) is that Tesla has engaged in bad faith. Sometimes this assertion looks like an accusation: Model 3 delayed? But I gave them $1000! Tesla is going to get sued for its bad faith! I HAVE RIGHTS DAMMIT!!! As a Model 3 reservation holder (in person 3 31) I totally understand the exquisite torture of this wait. But as an attorney in the U.S. slinging claims of bad faith rubs me the wrong way. I ve litigated consumer fraud cases and claims of bad faith negotiations or bad faith behavior and I don t think it s fair to claim that Tesla has engaged in deceptive practices. Let me explain why... Legal dictionaries define bad faith as: *intentional dishonest act by not fulfilling legal or contractual obligations misleading another entering into an agreement without the intention or means to fulfill it or violating basic standards of honesty in dealing with others.* (States typically recognize claims for breach of the implied covenant of good faith and fair dealing but I m not going to do a survey of state legislation or common law.) The basic definition is enough for our purposes. Let s break down its elements: 1. intentional dishonest act If there is any evidence that Tesla believed at the time the estimates were made that they could not be fulfilled I haven t seen it. Were they optimistic? Probably. Did they fall far short of the planned ramp? Of course! But there is no evidence that Elon sat down with Voldemort Moff Tarkin and Lex Luthor and said boys we re going to promise delivery in January even though we can NEVER do it because we want that sweet sweet kilobuck from u _rdaneel_. Now hold my ambien-spiked syrah while I go do some dishonest shit. 1. by not fulfilling legal or contractual obligations Critically your $1000 reservation fee - per the agreement with Tesla *that you accepted* - is not a deposit. It bears no interest and does not entitle you to anything at any time. You re holding a place in line and can back out at any time without penalty. The fine print (lawyers love fine print!) says that Tesla has **not promised to sell you a car ever.** 1. misleading another entering into an agreement without the intention or means to fulfill it or violating basic standards of honesty in dealing with others As described above there is no evidence that Tesla ever intended to NOT sell you a Model 3. In fact the several thousand Model 3s on the road suggest that Tesla does indeed want to trade your cheddar for their car. As for the basic standards of honesty I repeat that missing a goal even an optimistic one is not dishonest (at least legally speaking). No state attorney general is going to pursue Tesla over this claim. BUT BUT BUT TEH TAX CREDITZ! Note that Tesla never promised that you would be entitled to a federal tax credit. Indeed the $35 000 base price is before tax incentives. So if there are no tax incentives you still pay $35 000. You may feel sad or mad or hurt that you haven t gotten your car. I share your pain. But the law doesn t exist to protect our feelings. It exists to protect consumers from deliberate faleshoods. Until some new evidence surfaces I m going to continue to give Tesla the (legally-required!) benefit of the doubt and just keep wishing for that invitation to configure. In the mean time let s collectively knock off the bad faith claims. | As an attorney how do you feel about this AP2 situation: 1) Test drive read marketing material and manual for an AP1 car. 2) Order an AP1 car before AP2 is released 3) Get email saying I am being changed to an AP2 car. If I want upgrade to EAP which adds features in the future. Either way the car will be delivered with AP1 features that I paid for as part of my original order. 4) Get car find out that not even cruise control works and there are no rain sensing wipers. Was not told of this before or during vehicle delivery. 5) 65 weeks later car still doesn t do what an AP1 car did 6) User manual online is still AP1 no way for a new buyer to find out what the car can and cannot do in writing. 7) At the time I paid for EAP the marketing materials said expected December 2016. Now 60 weeks later this still has not been released but Tesla refuses to refund money. This is a very different situation- they actually took people s money for these cars and they don t do what the marketing materials or manuals say. | I assume its mostly just paid hoping to add x amount of key words and manipulate the stock for an hour or a day. | 145 | 3 | 2,070 |
7w64ms | 502 | [Discussion] Let s talk about bad faith for a minute... My apologies in advance for the wall of text but there s something we need to discuss. A recurring theme on this sub prompted by bad news from Tesla (particularly schedule delays) is that Tesla has engaged in bad faith. Sometimes this assertion looks like an accusation: Model 3 delayed? But I gave them $1000! Tesla is going to get sued for its bad faith! I HAVE RIGHTS DAMMIT!!! As a Model 3 reservation holder (in person 3 31) I totally understand the exquisite torture of this wait. But as an attorney in the U.S. slinging claims of bad faith rubs me the wrong way. I ve litigated consumer fraud cases and claims of bad faith negotiations or bad faith behavior and I don t think it s fair to claim that Tesla has engaged in deceptive practices. Let me explain why... Legal dictionaries define bad faith as: *intentional dishonest act by not fulfilling legal or contractual obligations misleading another entering into an agreement without the intention or means to fulfill it or violating basic standards of honesty in dealing with others.* (States typically recognize claims for breach of the implied covenant of good faith and fair dealing but I m not going to do a survey of state legislation or common law.) The basic definition is enough for our purposes. Let s break down its elements: 1. intentional dishonest act If there is any evidence that Tesla believed at the time the estimates were made that they could not be fulfilled I haven t seen it. Were they optimistic? Probably. Did they fall far short of the planned ramp? Of course! But there is no evidence that Elon sat down with Voldemort Moff Tarkin and Lex Luthor and said boys we re going to promise delivery in January even though we can NEVER do it because we want that sweet sweet kilobuck from u _rdaneel_. Now hold my ambien-spiked syrah while I go do some dishonest shit. 1. by not fulfilling legal or contractual obligations Critically your $1000 reservation fee - per the agreement with Tesla *that you accepted* - is not a deposit. It bears no interest and does not entitle you to anything at any time. You re holding a place in line and can back out at any time without penalty. The fine print (lawyers love fine print!) says that Tesla has **not promised to sell you a car ever.** 1. misleading another entering into an agreement without the intention or means to fulfill it or violating basic standards of honesty in dealing with others As described above there is no evidence that Tesla ever intended to NOT sell you a Model 3. In fact the several thousand Model 3s on the road suggest that Tesla does indeed want to trade your cheddar for their car. As for the basic standards of honesty I repeat that missing a goal even an optimistic one is not dishonest (at least legally speaking). No state attorney general is going to pursue Tesla over this claim. BUT BUT BUT TEH TAX CREDITZ! Note that Tesla never promised that you would be entitled to a federal tax credit. Indeed the $35 000 base price is before tax incentives. So if there are no tax incentives you still pay $35 000. You may feel sad or mad or hurt that you haven t gotten your car. I share your pain. But the law doesn t exist to protect our feelings. It exists to protect consumers from deliberate faleshoods. Until some new evidence surfaces I m going to continue to give Tesla the (legally-required!) benefit of the doubt and just keep wishing for that invitation to configure. In the mean time let s collectively knock off the bad faith claims. | As an attorney how do you feel about this AP2 situation: 1) Test drive read marketing material and manual for an AP1 car. 2) Order an AP1 car before AP2 is released 3) Get email saying I am being changed to an AP2 car. If I want upgrade to EAP which adds features in the future. Either way the car will be delivered with AP1 features that I paid for as part of my original order. 4) Get car find out that not even cruise control works and there are no rain sensing wipers. Was not told of this before or during vehicle delivery. 5) 65 weeks later car still doesn t do what an AP1 car did 6) User manual online is still AP1 no way for a new buyer to find out what the car can and cannot do in writing. 7) At the time I paid for EAP the marketing materials said expected December 2016. Now 60 weeks later this still has not been released but Tesla refuses to refund money. This is a very different situation- they actually took people s money for these cars and they don t do what the marketing materials or manuals say. | Thank you! I ve been thinking this after reading all of the posts you mention and I m glad someone who knows what they are talking about made this post. | 145 | 4 | 2,071 |
7w64ms | 502 | [Discussion] Let s talk about bad faith for a minute... My apologies in advance for the wall of text but there s something we need to discuss. A recurring theme on this sub prompted by bad news from Tesla (particularly schedule delays) is that Tesla has engaged in bad faith. Sometimes this assertion looks like an accusation: Model 3 delayed? But I gave them $1000! Tesla is going to get sued for its bad faith! I HAVE RIGHTS DAMMIT!!! As a Model 3 reservation holder (in person 3 31) I totally understand the exquisite torture of this wait. But as an attorney in the U.S. slinging claims of bad faith rubs me the wrong way. I ve litigated consumer fraud cases and claims of bad faith negotiations or bad faith behavior and I don t think it s fair to claim that Tesla has engaged in deceptive practices. Let me explain why... Legal dictionaries define bad faith as: *intentional dishonest act by not fulfilling legal or contractual obligations misleading another entering into an agreement without the intention or means to fulfill it or violating basic standards of honesty in dealing with others.* (States typically recognize claims for breach of the implied covenant of good faith and fair dealing but I m not going to do a survey of state legislation or common law.) The basic definition is enough for our purposes. Let s break down its elements: 1. intentional dishonest act If there is any evidence that Tesla believed at the time the estimates were made that they could not be fulfilled I haven t seen it. Were they optimistic? Probably. Did they fall far short of the planned ramp? Of course! But there is no evidence that Elon sat down with Voldemort Moff Tarkin and Lex Luthor and said boys we re going to promise delivery in January even though we can NEVER do it because we want that sweet sweet kilobuck from u _rdaneel_. Now hold my ambien-spiked syrah while I go do some dishonest shit. 1. by not fulfilling legal or contractual obligations Critically your $1000 reservation fee - per the agreement with Tesla *that you accepted* - is not a deposit. It bears no interest and does not entitle you to anything at any time. You re holding a place in line and can back out at any time without penalty. The fine print (lawyers love fine print!) says that Tesla has **not promised to sell you a car ever.** 1. misleading another entering into an agreement without the intention or means to fulfill it or violating basic standards of honesty in dealing with others As described above there is no evidence that Tesla ever intended to NOT sell you a Model 3. In fact the several thousand Model 3s on the road suggest that Tesla does indeed want to trade your cheddar for their car. As for the basic standards of honesty I repeat that missing a goal even an optimistic one is not dishonest (at least legally speaking). No state attorney general is going to pursue Tesla over this claim. BUT BUT BUT TEH TAX CREDITZ! Note that Tesla never promised that you would be entitled to a federal tax credit. Indeed the $35 000 base price is before tax incentives. So if there are no tax incentives you still pay $35 000. You may feel sad or mad or hurt that you haven t gotten your car. I share your pain. But the law doesn t exist to protect our feelings. It exists to protect consumers from deliberate faleshoods. Until some new evidence surfaces I m going to continue to give Tesla the (legally-required!) benefit of the doubt and just keep wishing for that invitation to configure. In the mean time let s collectively knock off the bad faith claims. | As an attorney how do you feel about this AP2 situation: 1) Test drive read marketing material and manual for an AP1 car. 2) Order an AP1 car before AP2 is released 3) Get email saying I am being changed to an AP2 car. If I want upgrade to EAP which adds features in the future. Either way the car will be delivered with AP1 features that I paid for as part of my original order. 4) Get car find out that not even cruise control works and there are no rain sensing wipers. Was not told of this before or during vehicle delivery. 5) 65 weeks later car still doesn t do what an AP1 car did 6) User manual online is still AP1 no way for a new buyer to find out what the car can and cannot do in writing. 7) At the time I paid for EAP the marketing materials said expected December 2016. Now 60 weeks later this still has not been released but Tesla refuses to refund money. This is a very different situation- they actually took people s money for these cars and they don t do what the marketing materials or manuals say. | I agree with your points. I am pre-reveal reservation holder and willing to wait some more. But some of us regard Tesla and especially Elon as a more than a business and more than a businessman. That scale brings blind faith and with the same scale hurts when they do something less than expected. It goes both ways. So while you are spot on from legal point of view It s beyond that for better or for worse. I continue to have faith! I am excited with larger picture. | 145 | 10 | 2,072 |
7w6gak | 58 | Earnest questions For Model 3 Waitlisters from a TSLA shorter I took a small short position in Tesla before earnings announcement. I think the company is pretty neat but overvalued. While doing my research I came here also followed the vin bot some other things. What follows are some basic observational questions I d like some earnest answers to. Please don t consider this a troll. Why are you waiting for more than 3 (perhaps 4 or 5) years for a $37k car that competes with a buy it today electric car from GM that goes for $35k before incentives? What s the draw? Is it sunk cost fallacy? Is it fanatical belief? Are you hoping the car will be better when you get it? Why do you want an electric car when you can get an equivalent low cost gas powered car for half the cost? Does GM s electric car not offer what you want? Are you concerned about Tesla not delivering quality workmanship? EDIT: Let me try to rephrase the Bolt specific questions a different way: How much longer are you willing to wait for your model 3 rather than buy another car (gas or electric)? How much more would the model 3 have to be (or the bolt less) for you to seriously consider switching? EDIT 2: I gave a somewhat detailed explanation of my position even thought that was not the intent of the thread: https: www.reddit.com r teslamotors comments 7w6gak earnest_questions_for_model_3_waitlisters_from_a du0ryun I would like to thank everyone for their responses. I know I m not the sort of person that you guys expect to interact with and think I am trolling you. As an update to my short position so far I have covered what I am in for and the rest is basically riding until I think I ve made enough money. Details are in the link above. It s not as much as I bet you would think :). I do think Tesla makes some great products I simply doubt the current valuation of the company. | > Why are you waiting for more than 3 (perhaps 4 or 5) years for a $37k car that competes with a buy it today electric car from GM that goes for $35k before incentives? Why wait for the Galaxy S9 when the S8 is available for the same basic price today? It s better. I want the 3 more. It s not ugly. Same reason as the other 3094 purchasing decisions we make all the time. > Are you hoping the car will be better when you get it? Better than what? > Why do you want an electric car when you can get an equivalent low cost gas powered car for half the cost? Because I want an EV and anyway I d very much disagree that an equivalent car is half the cost. Equivalent on what? Size? Number of seat belts? They didn t drop an electric motor into a ford focus. Love it or hate it it s tip to tail unlike anything else. There s no $17 500 ICE car that can get OTA updates to be continually improved has any level of self driving as a possibility has an interior anything like the 3 and so on. > Does GM s electric car not offer what you want? It s ugly lacks autopilot a network to charge on the go (though I think this is less of a big deal than some it s something) and so on. I d be lying if I said there s no part of me that sees people getting these on a $120 a month lease and thinks well...shit the 3 isn t worth 6 times that though. > Are you concerned about Tesla not delivering quality workmanship? Some. ------------------------- Overall I consider myself a Tesla realist. I m not a nothing they do is ever wrong fan boy I just think this line of questioning gets old. Why would you want an apple when an orange is the same price?!? Because I want an apple or because I don t want an orange. It s not unusual. A person could only see it as such if they ve decided all fruit is the same and that s a goofy starting premise. To view this as all evs are the same so this can only be explained by fanatical brand love is ignoring a lot about the actual situation. That does happen of course but it s not the *only* explanation. We treat them as different cars with different levels of desire because they re different cars with different things to desire. (And frankly for that matter available now isn t that big of a selling point to me and I actually don t know why it should be. A tie breaker sure but if anything making a major life purchase on something you prefer less just because it s available now is the irrational instant-gratification-generation decision.) For the time being the Bolt is the closest we have for a barometer of demand for evs without the cool brand but that doesn t mean this is some kind of take the emblems off the hoods and you can t even tell them apart! situation either. Also *even if it were* the brand does sometimes matter beyond Hipsterism. You can want to support what Tesla is trying to do over a car the old guard made begrudgingly and actively discusses not wanting people to buy it. | Picked up my Model 3 yesterday and it was definitely worth the 2 year wait. The desire to wait for this car comes totally from my experience as a Tesla Model S owner since 2015. You hear a lot of complaints and general negativity from the vocal minority but most owners like me only have positive experiences. My Model S at 40 000 miles has been the most reliable car I ve ever owned the car is fast and a joy to drive and other cars seem low-tech in comparison. And the thought of going to a GM dealership like you suggest caused me to break out in hives a little bit. At this point my experience with my Model S and Tesla in general is such that I can t see me or my family ever considering another brand. Hence we were willing to wait. | 113 | 65 | 2,073 |
7w6gak | 58 | Earnest questions For Model 3 Waitlisters from a TSLA shorter I took a small short position in Tesla before earnings announcement. I think the company is pretty neat but overvalued. While doing my research I came here also followed the vin bot some other things. What follows are some basic observational questions I d like some earnest answers to. Please don t consider this a troll. Why are you waiting for more than 3 (perhaps 4 or 5) years for a $37k car that competes with a buy it today electric car from GM that goes for $35k before incentives? What s the draw? Is it sunk cost fallacy? Is it fanatical belief? Are you hoping the car will be better when you get it? Why do you want an electric car when you can get an equivalent low cost gas powered car for half the cost? Does GM s electric car not offer what you want? Are you concerned about Tesla not delivering quality workmanship? EDIT: Let me try to rephrase the Bolt specific questions a different way: How much longer are you willing to wait for your model 3 rather than buy another car (gas or electric)? How much more would the model 3 have to be (or the bolt less) for you to seriously consider switching? EDIT 2: I gave a somewhat detailed explanation of my position even thought that was not the intent of the thread: https: www.reddit.com r teslamotors comments 7w6gak earnest_questions_for_model_3_waitlisters_from_a du0ryun I would like to thank everyone for their responses. I know I m not the sort of person that you guys expect to interact with and think I am trolling you. As an update to my short position so far I have covered what I am in for and the rest is basically riding until I think I ve made enough money. Details are in the link above. It s not as much as I bet you would think :). I do think Tesla makes some great products I simply doubt the current valuation of the company. | A few thoughts: Without Tesla pushing the issue I don t believe that other manufactures would be doing a thing. VW is investing heavily but only because they were forced. A few others have begun serious investments but only as a reaction to sales or predicted sales. They all could ve done this years ago and we d have been better off for it. They didn t. They choose the path of least resistance... profits over investments cash now over the future. That makes perfect sense from a business stance... but not from a progress stance. EV tech is simply superior to ICE (at least in my view). Fewer moving parts better performance better economy... if we were to go into specific details the list would be long. EV also breaks many aspects of the model upon which every major auto manufacturer is based. Dealers can t make money without repair costs. Parts suppliers and mechanics will have a rougher time without the need to replace breaks filters and belts. And of course big oil will lose money... well they lose the potential to make even more money... as EVs become the norm. This is neither good nor bad it s simply change. Change that big auto was not prepared to make. Tesla has forced their hand. Personally unless Tesla goes out of business or their cars start literally exploding I don t see myself ever buying another brand. They were willing to invest in our future and so I m completely willing to continue investing in them. | I don t like the aesthetics of the bolt. The 6.5 second 0-60 is a little too slow for my tastes. | 50 | 5 | 2,074 |
7w6gak | 58 | Earnest questions For Model 3 Waitlisters from a TSLA shorter I took a small short position in Tesla before earnings announcement. I think the company is pretty neat but overvalued. While doing my research I came here also followed the vin bot some other things. What follows are some basic observational questions I d like some earnest answers to. Please don t consider this a troll. Why are you waiting for more than 3 (perhaps 4 or 5) years for a $37k car that competes with a buy it today electric car from GM that goes for $35k before incentives? What s the draw? Is it sunk cost fallacy? Is it fanatical belief? Are you hoping the car will be better when you get it? Why do you want an electric car when you can get an equivalent low cost gas powered car for half the cost? Does GM s electric car not offer what you want? Are you concerned about Tesla not delivering quality workmanship? EDIT: Let me try to rephrase the Bolt specific questions a different way: How much longer are you willing to wait for your model 3 rather than buy another car (gas or electric)? How much more would the model 3 have to be (or the bolt less) for you to seriously consider switching? EDIT 2: I gave a somewhat detailed explanation of my position even thought that was not the intent of the thread: https: www.reddit.com r teslamotors comments 7w6gak earnest_questions_for_model_3_waitlisters_from_a du0ryun I would like to thank everyone for their responses. I know I m not the sort of person that you guys expect to interact with and think I am trolling you. As an update to my short position so far I have covered what I am in for and the rest is basically riding until I think I ve made enough money. Details are in the link above. It s not as much as I bet you would think :). I do think Tesla makes some great products I simply doubt the current valuation of the company. | A few thoughts: Without Tesla pushing the issue I don t believe that other manufactures would be doing a thing. VW is investing heavily but only because they were forced. A few others have begun serious investments but only as a reaction to sales or predicted sales. They all could ve done this years ago and we d have been better off for it. They didn t. They choose the path of least resistance... profits over investments cash now over the future. That makes perfect sense from a business stance... but not from a progress stance. EV tech is simply superior to ICE (at least in my view). Fewer moving parts better performance better economy... if we were to go into specific details the list would be long. EV also breaks many aspects of the model upon which every major auto manufacturer is based. Dealers can t make money without repair costs. Parts suppliers and mechanics will have a rougher time without the need to replace breaks filters and belts. And of course big oil will lose money... well they lose the potential to make even more money... as EVs become the norm. This is neither good nor bad it s simply change. Change that big auto was not prepared to make. Tesla has forced their hand. Personally unless Tesla goes out of business or their cars start literally exploding I don t see myself ever buying another brand. They were willing to invest in our future and so I m completely willing to continue investing in them. | The Bolt or any other electric car for that matter doesn t have a fast-charging infrastructure. Making them useless for long distance trips. That s why I d never buy an electric car other than a Tesla. | 50 | 5 | 2,075 |
7w7027 | 175 | Why I m ok with Elon estimates I think it s apparent by now that he knows his estimates are always wrong and doesn t care. His goal is to keep things moving as fast as possible and you don t do that by giving your employees realistic goals. There needs to be zero room for letting off the gas. The choice is whether to please Wall Street or achieve the goals he has set as quickly as possible (mass adoption of EVs making humans interplanetary mass adoption of photovoltaics etc.). It s clear from everything that he has ever said that getting these things done is his only driver. & nbsp That s why I m not at all concerned about when these arbitrary production numbers are hit (or any of his other estimates). I m an investor and a reservation holder but when it comes right down to it I want him to succeed with what he s trying to do. I don t care when it happens because it will happen well before anyone else even gets close. | This is exactly what trump supporters say on T_D everyday when he lies. | I think you re in the majority. We had a grand total of about one person that outright said they were cancelling their reservation because of the recent delays. And it was out of necessity. Bunch of hodlers in this sub. | 89 | 3 | 2,076 |
7w7027 | 175 | Why I m ok with Elon estimates I think it s apparent by now that he knows his estimates are always wrong and doesn t care. His goal is to keep things moving as fast as possible and you don t do that by giving your employees realistic goals. There needs to be zero room for letting off the gas. The choice is whether to please Wall Street or achieve the goals he has set as quickly as possible (mass adoption of EVs making humans interplanetary mass adoption of photovoltaics etc.). It s clear from everything that he has ever said that getting these things done is his only driver. & nbsp That s why I m not at all concerned about when these arbitrary production numbers are hit (or any of his other estimates). I m an investor and a reservation holder but when it comes right down to it I want him to succeed with what he s trying to do. I don t care when it happens because it will happen well before anyone else even gets close. | This is exactly what trump supporters say on T_D everyday when he lies. | letting off the gas Maybe not the best metaphor here. :) | 89 | 20 | 2,077 |
7w7027 | 175 | Why I m ok with Elon estimates I think it s apparent by now that he knows his estimates are always wrong and doesn t care. His goal is to keep things moving as fast as possible and you don t do that by giving your employees realistic goals. There needs to be zero room for letting off the gas. The choice is whether to please Wall Street or achieve the goals he has set as quickly as possible (mass adoption of EVs making humans interplanetary mass adoption of photovoltaics etc.). It s clear from everything that he has ever said that getting these things done is his only driver. & nbsp That s why I m not at all concerned about when these arbitrary production numbers are hit (or any of his other estimates). I m an investor and a reservation holder but when it comes right down to it I want him to succeed with what he s trying to do. I don t care when it happens because it will happen well before anyone else even gets close. | My pet theory is that we can break the population down like this: Supporters are people who have tried to build something complex and succeeded. They went through the headaches delays budget overruns early disappointments etc. But eventually they delivered something good. Detractors either never built something or tried and failed. I m in the first camp and have zero doubt that Tesla will hit their production numbers at some point. I m betting 5K for Q2 maybe Q3 is easy. 10K will be another challenge. I can see this slipping a quarter maybe two. But they ll do it. The only thing I m worried about as an investor is the lack of autopilot progress. I m blindly believing Musk right now when he talks about it. But man I really need to see some significant progress soon to make me comfortable continuing to hold. Edit: typo | I think you re in the majority. We had a grand total of about one person that outright said they were cancelling their reservation because of the recent delays. And it was out of necessity. Bunch of hodlers in this sub. | 36 | 3 | 2,078 |
7w7pxe | 261 | Opinion - Tesla should drop the 1k surcharge for activating auto pilot after delivery until a year of ownership Like many of you I m trying to convince myself and more importantly my wife that the LR Model 3 is worth it. However there s a bit of sticker shock when adding the the 5k auto pilot option. I don t like the idea of paying an extra 1k later on for a feature I know I will enable. So I think they should let you upgrade within a year of delivery at it s normal price. It may make it a little easier to upsell to LR if the consumer didn t have to worry about that cost at the same time. | As great as this would be for customers I don t see this as a great business decision. The only reason i m considering buying it at delivery is for the 1k discount. If I could wait 12 months and still get the discount I would wait 11 months before buying. | A year no. I think they should let you decide up to 30 days later. After that the surcharge is fair. | 55 | 14 | 2,079 |
7w9a7h | 572 | FYI for anyone with an Amazon Prime membership Jeremy Clarkson just reviewed the Model X on The Grand Tour (Episode 10 Oh Canada ) Said that Tesla is fast becoming a major automaker and can no longer be ignored (they hadn t planned on reviewing another after the Roadster lawsuit). | I was under the impression that Jeremy Clarkson has an anti EV bias. Hopefully this means he is becoming a bit more open minded. | It went better than I expected. | 95 | 7 | 2,080 |
7w9a7h | 572 | FYI for anyone with an Amazon Prime membership Jeremy Clarkson just reviewed the Model X on The Grand Tour (Episode 10 Oh Canada ) Said that Tesla is fast becoming a major automaker and can no longer be ignored (they hadn t planned on reviewing another after the Roadster lawsuit). | I was under the impression that Jeremy Clarkson has an anti EV bias. Hopefully this means he is becoming a bit more open minded. | Brilliant segment. Honestly the part with the lawyers was genius. | 95 | 58 | 2,081 |
7wg3k2 | 53 | [Discussion] Is the model 3 the cheapest way to get decent semi autonomous driving? I constantly see people attack Tesla for not actually being the fruntrunner for self driving saying don t buy a Tesla if the main reason is EAP but when I try to look for anybody else doing it for as cheap as the model 3 I ve been failing to find a good alternative. All the other systems seen to ping pong around and need more intervention than EAP. Does anyone know of a company that has lane keep semi autonomous driving that is as good as or better than Tesla s for cheaper or even the same price? | Tesla s ADAS (Advanced Driver Assistance System) is either #1 or #2 in the market *right now* depending on your needs. SuperCruise is better at smoothly driving the car but they highly restrict where and when you can enable it so it s perfect conditions only. EAP (Enhanced Autopilot) may not be as perfect but you re free to try it in more varied conditions and with supervision it s really quite excellent. EAP is also the only one available at a price point as low as a Model 3 s. SuperCruise the other contender is only available on the loaded-up Cadillac CT6. There are other systems coming in mid to late 2018 so we can revisit the question then. Nissan s system looks like it should be good and it will be available on normally-priced cars. Audi s system looks good but will only be available on the A8. C& D did a first-drive review of the new A7 and it did not have Audi s best ADAS system available as an option. So the question you have to ask is by the time other $30 000 - $40 000 cars get an ADAS system equivalent to the current generation of EAP what will EAP be capable of doing via software updates? The answer is: We don t know. | You really need to define what you want it to do in order to answer your question. Semi autonomous has a huge range of meaning to people. Traffic Aware Cruise Control which slows down for traffic is autonomous. | 51 | 6 | 2,082 |
7whes3 | 103 | Dealing with first accident While the repairs on my car have not yet started I thought I d share the experience so far dealing with insurance. It s a 2016 S70D. I almost made it 32 000 miles without any incident. Just over 3 weeks ago a guy swerved into the other lane to avoid rear ending the person in front of him. However he did not look first and I was right next to him. The point of contact was basically the fender above driver s side front wheel. After having to replace tire that wouldn t hold air anymore the car is drive-able. This happened in north west Indiana (which is an at fault state) and the police determined it to be 100% their fault. During the accident I got the insurance company name (Farmers) of other driver but not the policy. However I knew it was on the police report. I was just going to wait a few days until I could get it off that. I contacted my insurance to know let them know it happened. I tried contacting their insurance but without policy number they wouldn t do anything. I had name & address but needed policy number. While waiting for the police report I got an estimate from Gold Coast body shop (one of the two Telsa certified in area and the only one that came recommended). They gave me an estimate. However when they found out it was Farmers they warned me how badly this was going to go. The estimate was around $2480 for the body work and fixing rim (drive-able but deep scratches) which honestly came in lower than I thought it was going to be. I recontacted my insurance to let them know Farmers seemed to have somewhat of a reputation of not wanting to fix Tesla cars. They scheduled an estimator guy (can t remember official title) to come out an do an estimate. He had taken training courses on Telsas. He was quite knowledgeable and explained all sorts of things about the repair process. His estimate came out around $1 more than the body shop. Lots of time passed and I was finally able to get a hold of their insurance and setup claim. They got statements police reports etc and decided they were going to accept liability for it. They had received my two estimates I had done but Due to the make of your vehicle I was informed that one of our local adjusters will need to inspect your vehicle in person . Their local guy came out to do an estimate and it was night and day between the companies. He obviously had no idea about Teslas. He was using labor rates from shops that won t even work on a Tesla and paint shops that wouldn t do aluminium. He commented that aluminium and steel were basically the same and they should just be able to pop the dent out. He was questioning numerous things on the other estimates. At one point it came up there were seals that needed to be added and removed inside the frunk during repair. He asked if I could pop the hood for pictures. I opened it for him and one of the first things he asked was where is the engine. Needless to say his estimate came out drastically lower. I m now filing a claim through my insurance and the companies will be suing each other. When mine wins I ll get reimbursed my deductible. That s basically my only cost since my policy already covered rental car among other things. I know generally you can t tell anything about most insurance companies until trying to make a claim but I can definitely recommend avoiding Farmers with a Tesla at least in the Chicago NWI area. Luckily this was pretty minor as the car still drives. It s more of just a hassle dealing with it. I can t imagine having to deal with all this and my commute with a rental car. | Where is the engine?!? Did you inform him of the tide pod challenge? | This just makes me so mad. We recently dealt wit insurance as well when someone t boned my wife s prius and it was a nightmare. Even when you have all the numbers and have gone through all the steps it s still a disaster. Even if you did nothing wrong. | 94 | 7 | 2,083 |
7whes3 | 103 | Dealing with first accident While the repairs on my car have not yet started I thought I d share the experience so far dealing with insurance. It s a 2016 S70D. I almost made it 32 000 miles without any incident. Just over 3 weeks ago a guy swerved into the other lane to avoid rear ending the person in front of him. However he did not look first and I was right next to him. The point of contact was basically the fender above driver s side front wheel. After having to replace tire that wouldn t hold air anymore the car is drive-able. This happened in north west Indiana (which is an at fault state) and the police determined it to be 100% their fault. During the accident I got the insurance company name (Farmers) of other driver but not the policy. However I knew it was on the police report. I was just going to wait a few days until I could get it off that. I contacted my insurance to know let them know it happened. I tried contacting their insurance but without policy number they wouldn t do anything. I had name & address but needed policy number. While waiting for the police report I got an estimate from Gold Coast body shop (one of the two Telsa certified in area and the only one that came recommended). They gave me an estimate. However when they found out it was Farmers they warned me how badly this was going to go. The estimate was around $2480 for the body work and fixing rim (drive-able but deep scratches) which honestly came in lower than I thought it was going to be. I recontacted my insurance to let them know Farmers seemed to have somewhat of a reputation of not wanting to fix Tesla cars. They scheduled an estimator guy (can t remember official title) to come out an do an estimate. He had taken training courses on Telsas. He was quite knowledgeable and explained all sorts of things about the repair process. His estimate came out around $1 more than the body shop. Lots of time passed and I was finally able to get a hold of their insurance and setup claim. They got statements police reports etc and decided they were going to accept liability for it. They had received my two estimates I had done but Due to the make of your vehicle I was informed that one of our local adjusters will need to inspect your vehicle in person . Their local guy came out to do an estimate and it was night and day between the companies. He obviously had no idea about Teslas. He was using labor rates from shops that won t even work on a Tesla and paint shops that wouldn t do aluminium. He commented that aluminium and steel were basically the same and they should just be able to pop the dent out. He was questioning numerous things on the other estimates. At one point it came up there were seals that needed to be added and removed inside the frunk during repair. He asked if I could pop the hood for pictures. I opened it for him and one of the first things he asked was where is the engine. Needless to say his estimate came out drastically lower. I m now filing a claim through my insurance and the companies will be suing each other. When mine wins I ll get reimbursed my deductible. That s basically my only cost since my policy already covered rental car among other things. I know generally you can t tell anything about most insurance companies until trying to make a claim but I can definitely recommend avoiding Farmers with a Tesla at least in the Chicago NWI area. Luckily this was pretty minor as the car still drives. It s more of just a hassle dealing with it. I can t imagine having to deal with all this and my commute with a rental car. | I was rear ended last year and had to deal with Ameriprise. It took a while for everything to sort out but they were easy to deal with. Don t forget to file a diminished value claim!! It should come in around $5 000 to $10 000. Hansen Price took care of my estimate that was submitted to Ameriprise. They are good and the cost from HP is required to be reimbursed by Farmers in your case. After some back and forth they paid out nearly $6 000 on mine. | This just makes me so mad. We recently dealt wit insurance as well when someone t boned my wife s prius and it was a nightmare. Even when you have all the numbers and have gone through all the steps it s still a disaster. Even if you did nothing wrong. | 35 | 7 | 2,084 |
7woloy | 240 | [Discussion] I attended The Boring Company s Culver City Presentation. I m concerned about its ability to win public trust. (x-post from r technology) I attended the Boring Company s January 22 presentation to the City Council of the City of Culver City (this is legitimately how they refer to themselves) where they pitched their plan to burrow underneath the town as part of their “Phase 1” 6.5 mile tunnel. I went with the intention to simply gather information for my podcast and left with the sinking feeling that the company is biting off more than it can chew. The Boring Company presenters themselves were competent capable and as well-prepared as I imagine they could have been considering the circumstances. (I ll get to that in a bit.) My two main takeaways from that City Council meeting were: **1.)** There s a vast difference between selling private goods and winning public trust **2.)** Any company will struggle to succeed when their CEO (by his own admission) dedicates 2 or 3 percent of his time to it. Let s backup and discuss how the Council meeting went before The Boring Company gave their presentation and fielded questions. It shines a light on how much of public work is a slow grind of competing interests and a stark contrast to the move fast and break things mentality of many technology companies. A Boy Scout was invited to the front of the room to lead all of us in the Pledge of Allegiance. And after Vice Mayor Thomas Small discussed the upcoming Kindness Week at Culver City Middle School eight residents were each given two minutes to speak on their chosen topic. (I m not sure how these eight were chosen specifically.) A selection: One man complained about Film LA s (the organization that oversees film permits in the Los Angeles area) abuse of Culver City parking. He was quite emotional and infuriated. Another speaker - a poet - read a couple poems she had written one comparing Congresspeople to Baboons. Yet another discussed permitting requests for proposed cannabis retail stores. An elderly man *demanded* the city repair and maintain stop lights. It must have struck a nerve because about half the room applauded when he finished. After the eight speakers had each had their say Boring Company s Operations Coordinator Jehn Balajadia gave her presentation. She touched on many of the points available at [The Boring Company s FAQ](https: www.boringcompany.com faq ). More importantly I want to discuss the response from the Council and the public. After Balajadia ended her initial 10 minute presentation five pre-selected Culver City residents came up to ask their questions. 1.) Marleen Pugach said she didn t want experimental tunnels dug under her neighborhood which she said is “under seige” 2.) Judi Sherman had questions about community impact 3.) Ken Mand was a champion of the tunnel and its technology but had important questions about its ultimate effect on the city s residents. 4.) Daniel Lee was excited to see the presentation. But he wanted the city to strongly take into account the proposed access points for entering and exiting the tunnel. Also he was concerned about the small size of the pods and wished they held more people. He also wanted to encourage local hire within LA and explicitly Culver City. 5.) Alex Fish said that although Boring Company was not asking for public cash they were in effect asking for capital via access to public land that could be used for other means. He had concerns that - if the company were to dissolve - who would be left holding the bag to guard the tunnel and its access points? City Councilwoman Meghan Sahli-Wells was the most critical of the five Council Members and not without reason. Her questions were pointed and she took issue with comments Musk had made about public transit in December when he said “It s a pain in the ass. That s why everyone doesn t like it. And there s like a bunch of random strangers one of who might be a serial killer. Sahli-Wells wasn t sure if someone (from her POV) as openly hostile to public projects as Musk was the right person to be leading one. And - taking off my Musk Fanboy Hat - can you blame her? A **self-admitted** side project famous for selling hats and [flamethrowers](https: www.instagram.com p BeeYW0NA1HU ) wants to use land underneath your city. And many of your constituents - the ones you represent - are vocally wary or even hostile to the idea. What would you do? How would you feel? Sahli-Wells followed up with “It looks super sexy and super easy but it s half baked. It s half baked from a public perspective.” And simply based on how Boring reps handled the presentation and ensuing Q & A she wasn t wrong. The employees seemed underprepared to face anything resembling hostility. Which brings me back to my original two points: **1.)** There s a vast difference between selling private goods and winning public trust I doubt a Culver City Council meeting had ever been that packed. Nearly every seat was taken and there were two dozen people standing in the back of the room. And there were a LOT of Pro-Musk folks there (myself included). And it was enlightening to see how Musk loyalists would react to certain questions posed by the Council public and how regular people would react. I think it s a bit akin to watching all of the Harry Potter films AFTER you ve already read the books. Your mind invisibly subconsciously fills in a lot of gaps to the point where you don t even recognize they exist. But there s a vast difference between the relationship that exists between a private company and a prospective buyer and a private company and the larger public. And it all boils down to: Consent. It s the important distinction between consciously buying a U2 album vs [having it automatically installed on your phone](https: gigaom.com 2014 09 10 u2-on-my-phone). When you walk into a Tesla store you make the conscious choice to enter. You re already signaling *some* level of interest to the company by simply walking through the door. That signaling then ratchets up and down based on your actions - are you engaging with an employee in the showroom? Are you asking questions? Or are you turning around and immediately walking out? You d be hard pressed to find a Tesla store chockfull of people who don t **actively** want to be there. If you do somehow encounter this scenario: Call the police because we ve got a hostage situation. A public private partnership is an entirely different beast. Instead of members of the public coming to *you* (The Company) and entering *your* space you are pitching begging bribing goading forcing your way into *their* space. Suddenly instead of a scenario in which 100% of the people you re interacting with agree to the interaction you re fighting tooth and nail to claw your way to 50.1%. And The Boring Company representatives weren t equipped to do that. Which brings me to - **2.)** Any company will struggle to succeed when their CEO (by his own admission) dedicates 2 or 3 percent of his time to it. Elon has publicly said that after he spends most of his time as the CEO of SpaceX and Tesla 2-3% of his time is spent on The Boring Company. And it showed that night. I m incredibly sympathetic to the employees who were tasked with presenting the proposal to a not entirely supportive public but they were in many ways underprepared. And who can blame them? When a boss is running one company intent on disrupting the automobile industry and another on revolutionizing space travel how much time every day does he spare the employees giving 100% of their time to his 3% side project? A CEO fully 100% invested in Boring Company would have been felt in that presentation. Musk wasn t. What s so frustrating about all of this is that the more I learn and understand about The Boring Company s proposals the more I examine it from a [First Principles perspective](https: www.youtube.com watch?v=NV3sBlRgzTI) the more excited I get about its mission. As someone who teared up as the Falcon Heavy Stage 1 boosters landed in-sync on their landing pads who has been waiting since March 31 2016 for a Model 3... I believe the best way for The Boring Company to succeed in its mission to revolutionize public transportation is for Musk to hand over the CEO reins to someone else. | I wish half the posts in this sub were this well written (applause) | Thanks for the write-up. All of this makes perfect sense and in the exact same sense I kind of wish Musk would focus more of his time on Tesla. I get that he has other interests but like you said will the company do as well as it could if the CEO wasn t just focusing 20-30% (or whatever) of his efforts on this? | 118 | 2 | 2,085 |
7woloy | 240 | [Discussion] I attended The Boring Company s Culver City Presentation. I m concerned about its ability to win public trust. (x-post from r technology) I attended the Boring Company s January 22 presentation to the City Council of the City of Culver City (this is legitimately how they refer to themselves) where they pitched their plan to burrow underneath the town as part of their “Phase 1” 6.5 mile tunnel. I went with the intention to simply gather information for my podcast and left with the sinking feeling that the company is biting off more than it can chew. The Boring Company presenters themselves were competent capable and as well-prepared as I imagine they could have been considering the circumstances. (I ll get to that in a bit.) My two main takeaways from that City Council meeting were: **1.)** There s a vast difference between selling private goods and winning public trust **2.)** Any company will struggle to succeed when their CEO (by his own admission) dedicates 2 or 3 percent of his time to it. Let s backup and discuss how the Council meeting went before The Boring Company gave their presentation and fielded questions. It shines a light on how much of public work is a slow grind of competing interests and a stark contrast to the move fast and break things mentality of many technology companies. A Boy Scout was invited to the front of the room to lead all of us in the Pledge of Allegiance. And after Vice Mayor Thomas Small discussed the upcoming Kindness Week at Culver City Middle School eight residents were each given two minutes to speak on their chosen topic. (I m not sure how these eight were chosen specifically.) A selection: One man complained about Film LA s (the organization that oversees film permits in the Los Angeles area) abuse of Culver City parking. He was quite emotional and infuriated. Another speaker - a poet - read a couple poems she had written one comparing Congresspeople to Baboons. Yet another discussed permitting requests for proposed cannabis retail stores. An elderly man *demanded* the city repair and maintain stop lights. It must have struck a nerve because about half the room applauded when he finished. After the eight speakers had each had their say Boring Company s Operations Coordinator Jehn Balajadia gave her presentation. She touched on many of the points available at [The Boring Company s FAQ](https: www.boringcompany.com faq ). More importantly I want to discuss the response from the Council and the public. After Balajadia ended her initial 10 minute presentation five pre-selected Culver City residents came up to ask their questions. 1.) Marleen Pugach said she didn t want experimental tunnels dug under her neighborhood which she said is “under seige” 2.) Judi Sherman had questions about community impact 3.) Ken Mand was a champion of the tunnel and its technology but had important questions about its ultimate effect on the city s residents. 4.) Daniel Lee was excited to see the presentation. But he wanted the city to strongly take into account the proposed access points for entering and exiting the tunnel. Also he was concerned about the small size of the pods and wished they held more people. He also wanted to encourage local hire within LA and explicitly Culver City. 5.) Alex Fish said that although Boring Company was not asking for public cash they were in effect asking for capital via access to public land that could be used for other means. He had concerns that - if the company were to dissolve - who would be left holding the bag to guard the tunnel and its access points? City Councilwoman Meghan Sahli-Wells was the most critical of the five Council Members and not without reason. Her questions were pointed and she took issue with comments Musk had made about public transit in December when he said “It s a pain in the ass. That s why everyone doesn t like it. And there s like a bunch of random strangers one of who might be a serial killer. Sahli-Wells wasn t sure if someone (from her POV) as openly hostile to public projects as Musk was the right person to be leading one. And - taking off my Musk Fanboy Hat - can you blame her? A **self-admitted** side project famous for selling hats and [flamethrowers](https: www.instagram.com p BeeYW0NA1HU ) wants to use land underneath your city. And many of your constituents - the ones you represent - are vocally wary or even hostile to the idea. What would you do? How would you feel? Sahli-Wells followed up with “It looks super sexy and super easy but it s half baked. It s half baked from a public perspective.” And simply based on how Boring reps handled the presentation and ensuing Q & A she wasn t wrong. The employees seemed underprepared to face anything resembling hostility. Which brings me back to my original two points: **1.)** There s a vast difference between selling private goods and winning public trust I doubt a Culver City Council meeting had ever been that packed. Nearly every seat was taken and there were two dozen people standing in the back of the room. And there were a LOT of Pro-Musk folks there (myself included). And it was enlightening to see how Musk loyalists would react to certain questions posed by the Council public and how regular people would react. I think it s a bit akin to watching all of the Harry Potter films AFTER you ve already read the books. Your mind invisibly subconsciously fills in a lot of gaps to the point where you don t even recognize they exist. But there s a vast difference between the relationship that exists between a private company and a prospective buyer and a private company and the larger public. And it all boils down to: Consent. It s the important distinction between consciously buying a U2 album vs [having it automatically installed on your phone](https: gigaom.com 2014 09 10 u2-on-my-phone). When you walk into a Tesla store you make the conscious choice to enter. You re already signaling *some* level of interest to the company by simply walking through the door. That signaling then ratchets up and down based on your actions - are you engaging with an employee in the showroom? Are you asking questions? Or are you turning around and immediately walking out? You d be hard pressed to find a Tesla store chockfull of people who don t **actively** want to be there. If you do somehow encounter this scenario: Call the police because we ve got a hostage situation. A public private partnership is an entirely different beast. Instead of members of the public coming to *you* (The Company) and entering *your* space you are pitching begging bribing goading forcing your way into *their* space. Suddenly instead of a scenario in which 100% of the people you re interacting with agree to the interaction you re fighting tooth and nail to claw your way to 50.1%. And The Boring Company representatives weren t equipped to do that. Which brings me to - **2.)** Any company will struggle to succeed when their CEO (by his own admission) dedicates 2 or 3 percent of his time to it. Elon has publicly said that after he spends most of his time as the CEO of SpaceX and Tesla 2-3% of his time is spent on The Boring Company. And it showed that night. I m incredibly sympathetic to the employees who were tasked with presenting the proposal to a not entirely supportive public but they were in many ways underprepared. And who can blame them? When a boss is running one company intent on disrupting the automobile industry and another on revolutionizing space travel how much time every day does he spare the employees giving 100% of their time to his 3% side project? A CEO fully 100% invested in Boring Company would have been felt in that presentation. Musk wasn t. What s so frustrating about all of this is that the more I learn and understand about The Boring Company s proposals the more I examine it from a [First Principles perspective](https: www.youtube.com watch?v=NV3sBlRgzTI) the more excited I get about its mission. As someone who teared up as the Falcon Heavy Stage 1 boosters landed in-sync on their landing pads who has been waiting since March 31 2016 for a Model 3... I believe the best way for The Boring Company to succeed in its mission to revolutionize public transportation is for Musk to hand over the CEO reins to someone else. | I wish half the posts in this sub were this well written (applause) | Musk should have attended the meeting himself to assuage these concerns. Hope they learn and are better prepared next time. What was the ultimate outcome of the meeting? | 118 | 2 | 2,086 |
7woloy | 240 | [Discussion] I attended The Boring Company s Culver City Presentation. I m concerned about its ability to win public trust. (x-post from r technology) I attended the Boring Company s January 22 presentation to the City Council of the City of Culver City (this is legitimately how they refer to themselves) where they pitched their plan to burrow underneath the town as part of their “Phase 1” 6.5 mile tunnel. I went with the intention to simply gather information for my podcast and left with the sinking feeling that the company is biting off more than it can chew. The Boring Company presenters themselves were competent capable and as well-prepared as I imagine they could have been considering the circumstances. (I ll get to that in a bit.) My two main takeaways from that City Council meeting were: **1.)** There s a vast difference between selling private goods and winning public trust **2.)** Any company will struggle to succeed when their CEO (by his own admission) dedicates 2 or 3 percent of his time to it. Let s backup and discuss how the Council meeting went before The Boring Company gave their presentation and fielded questions. It shines a light on how much of public work is a slow grind of competing interests and a stark contrast to the move fast and break things mentality of many technology companies. A Boy Scout was invited to the front of the room to lead all of us in the Pledge of Allegiance. And after Vice Mayor Thomas Small discussed the upcoming Kindness Week at Culver City Middle School eight residents were each given two minutes to speak on their chosen topic. (I m not sure how these eight were chosen specifically.) A selection: One man complained about Film LA s (the organization that oversees film permits in the Los Angeles area) abuse of Culver City parking. He was quite emotional and infuriated. Another speaker - a poet - read a couple poems she had written one comparing Congresspeople to Baboons. Yet another discussed permitting requests for proposed cannabis retail stores. An elderly man *demanded* the city repair and maintain stop lights. It must have struck a nerve because about half the room applauded when he finished. After the eight speakers had each had their say Boring Company s Operations Coordinator Jehn Balajadia gave her presentation. She touched on many of the points available at [The Boring Company s FAQ](https: www.boringcompany.com faq ). More importantly I want to discuss the response from the Council and the public. After Balajadia ended her initial 10 minute presentation five pre-selected Culver City residents came up to ask their questions. 1.) Marleen Pugach said she didn t want experimental tunnels dug under her neighborhood which she said is “under seige” 2.) Judi Sherman had questions about community impact 3.) Ken Mand was a champion of the tunnel and its technology but had important questions about its ultimate effect on the city s residents. 4.) Daniel Lee was excited to see the presentation. But he wanted the city to strongly take into account the proposed access points for entering and exiting the tunnel. Also he was concerned about the small size of the pods and wished they held more people. He also wanted to encourage local hire within LA and explicitly Culver City. 5.) Alex Fish said that although Boring Company was not asking for public cash they were in effect asking for capital via access to public land that could be used for other means. He had concerns that - if the company were to dissolve - who would be left holding the bag to guard the tunnel and its access points? City Councilwoman Meghan Sahli-Wells was the most critical of the five Council Members and not without reason. Her questions were pointed and she took issue with comments Musk had made about public transit in December when he said “It s a pain in the ass. That s why everyone doesn t like it. And there s like a bunch of random strangers one of who might be a serial killer. Sahli-Wells wasn t sure if someone (from her POV) as openly hostile to public projects as Musk was the right person to be leading one. And - taking off my Musk Fanboy Hat - can you blame her? A **self-admitted** side project famous for selling hats and [flamethrowers](https: www.instagram.com p BeeYW0NA1HU ) wants to use land underneath your city. And many of your constituents - the ones you represent - are vocally wary or even hostile to the idea. What would you do? How would you feel? Sahli-Wells followed up with “It looks super sexy and super easy but it s half baked. It s half baked from a public perspective.” And simply based on how Boring reps handled the presentation and ensuing Q & A she wasn t wrong. The employees seemed underprepared to face anything resembling hostility. Which brings me back to my original two points: **1.)** There s a vast difference between selling private goods and winning public trust I doubt a Culver City Council meeting had ever been that packed. Nearly every seat was taken and there were two dozen people standing in the back of the room. And there were a LOT of Pro-Musk folks there (myself included). And it was enlightening to see how Musk loyalists would react to certain questions posed by the Council public and how regular people would react. I think it s a bit akin to watching all of the Harry Potter films AFTER you ve already read the books. Your mind invisibly subconsciously fills in a lot of gaps to the point where you don t even recognize they exist. But there s a vast difference between the relationship that exists between a private company and a prospective buyer and a private company and the larger public. And it all boils down to: Consent. It s the important distinction between consciously buying a U2 album vs [having it automatically installed on your phone](https: gigaom.com 2014 09 10 u2-on-my-phone). When you walk into a Tesla store you make the conscious choice to enter. You re already signaling *some* level of interest to the company by simply walking through the door. That signaling then ratchets up and down based on your actions - are you engaging with an employee in the showroom? Are you asking questions? Or are you turning around and immediately walking out? You d be hard pressed to find a Tesla store chockfull of people who don t **actively** want to be there. If you do somehow encounter this scenario: Call the police because we ve got a hostage situation. A public private partnership is an entirely different beast. Instead of members of the public coming to *you* (The Company) and entering *your* space you are pitching begging bribing goading forcing your way into *their* space. Suddenly instead of a scenario in which 100% of the people you re interacting with agree to the interaction you re fighting tooth and nail to claw your way to 50.1%. And The Boring Company representatives weren t equipped to do that. Which brings me to - **2.)** Any company will struggle to succeed when their CEO (by his own admission) dedicates 2 or 3 percent of his time to it. Elon has publicly said that after he spends most of his time as the CEO of SpaceX and Tesla 2-3% of his time is spent on The Boring Company. And it showed that night. I m incredibly sympathetic to the employees who were tasked with presenting the proposal to a not entirely supportive public but they were in many ways underprepared. And who can blame them? When a boss is running one company intent on disrupting the automobile industry and another on revolutionizing space travel how much time every day does he spare the employees giving 100% of their time to his 3% side project? A CEO fully 100% invested in Boring Company would have been felt in that presentation. Musk wasn t. What s so frustrating about all of this is that the more I learn and understand about The Boring Company s proposals the more I examine it from a [First Principles perspective](https: www.youtube.com watch?v=NV3sBlRgzTI) the more excited I get about its mission. As someone who teared up as the Falcon Heavy Stage 1 boosters landed in-sync on their landing pads who has been waiting since March 31 2016 for a Model 3... I believe the best way for The Boring Company to succeed in its mission to revolutionize public transportation is for Musk to hand over the CEO reins to someone else. | I wish half the posts in this sub were this well written (applause) | Excellent post but maybe not the right sub. Try r theboringcompany | 118 | 31 | 2,087 |
7x17bt | 28 | [Discussion] Regarding laws preventing manufacture direct selling: Why should states repeal these laws and open a Pandora s Box ? I apologize if the title of the post seem inflammatory as I don t really know how to title it correctly given my current question discussion. Let me begin: I was recently speaking with family about laws policies etc. and the conversation directed towards laws that make you go uhh what to oversimplify it. Naturally I brought up the laws that prevent Tesla from selling directly to consumer. My argument was basically this: > Tesla have identified a model that works for them meaning direct-to-consumer but local dealerships have cornered the politicians to dis-allow this from happening. These rules need to be repealed because it prevents Tesla from using a model that has worked for them in favor of what has always worked Disclaimer: I have a strong bias for challenging the status quo because due to my experience with the military this is the way it s always been done has never been a valid defense for any argument. Therefore I understand that not everyone agrees with my challenge the status quo opinion. My dad s argument was basically this: > I m not against Tesla selling directly to consumers but I believe if we allow Tesla to sell directly to consumers it will open a Pandora s box that could hurt an entire industry an industry that is very very large. His argument revolves around the idea that if Tesla is allowed to sell directly to consumers nation wide other manufacturers might want to do the same which would therefore destroy the current model and put millions of people out of a job business. I think this is an interesting take against Tesla selling directly to consumer and I m not really sure how to argue against this without admitting that jobs can be lost at first. I don t agree with this idea at all because you re basically arguing that Tesla shouldn t be allowed to use a sale s model (that works for them) due to the possibility of something bad happening. What are people s thoughts about this? I think this sub would most likely agree about whether Tesla should be allowed to sell directly to consumers but I m just wondering how people would counter-argue the point my dad made above. | Having an industry exist just for the sake of existing and job creation is incredibly backwards thinking. Using that same logic we should stop all work on automation and computers because that will cost jobs. Think of all the fast food workers who will lose jobs when kiosks take orders for customers! Additionally his argument is just false. Service will still be needed on vehicles who cares if the service people are employed by a dealer or the car manufacturer? Eliminating dated high pressure low value sales jobs can only benefit the car industry as a whole. Those jobs can transition into informational positions. | Something occurred to me the other day on this topic- I m buying a used 500e and am not in CA or WA the only 2 states Fiat decided to sell them. This is my choice but I also found it ironic that calling up several local Fiat dealerships all said “Nope. We can t help you we can t work on the electric version sorry.” I get the point that they didn t invest in the training or the tools to support a vehicle they ll likely never see but the whole “we need dealerships to be able to service the cars in case the manufacturers decide not to!” argument breaks down in this weird edge case. (I finally found one about 60mi away so hopefully I won t have to visit very often...) | 50 | 3 | 2,088 |
7x17bt | 28 | [Discussion] Regarding laws preventing manufacture direct selling: Why should states repeal these laws and open a Pandora s Box ? I apologize if the title of the post seem inflammatory as I don t really know how to title it correctly given my current question discussion. Let me begin: I was recently speaking with family about laws policies etc. and the conversation directed towards laws that make you go uhh what to oversimplify it. Naturally I brought up the laws that prevent Tesla from selling directly to consumer. My argument was basically this: > Tesla have identified a model that works for them meaning direct-to-consumer but local dealerships have cornered the politicians to dis-allow this from happening. These rules need to be repealed because it prevents Tesla from using a model that has worked for them in favor of what has always worked Disclaimer: I have a strong bias for challenging the status quo because due to my experience with the military this is the way it s always been done has never been a valid defense for any argument. Therefore I understand that not everyone agrees with my challenge the status quo opinion. My dad s argument was basically this: > I m not against Tesla selling directly to consumers but I believe if we allow Tesla to sell directly to consumers it will open a Pandora s box that could hurt an entire industry an industry that is very very large. His argument revolves around the idea that if Tesla is allowed to sell directly to consumers nation wide other manufacturers might want to do the same which would therefore destroy the current model and put millions of people out of a job business. I think this is an interesting take against Tesla selling directly to consumer and I m not really sure how to argue against this without admitting that jobs can be lost at first. I don t agree with this idea at all because you re basically arguing that Tesla shouldn t be allowed to use a sale s model (that works for them) due to the possibility of something bad happening. What are people s thoughts about this? I think this sub would most likely agree about whether Tesla should be allowed to sell directly to consumers but I m just wondering how people would counter-argue the point my dad made above. | Having an industry exist just for the sake of existing and job creation is incredibly backwards thinking. Using that same logic we should stop all work on automation and computers because that will cost jobs. Think of all the fast food workers who will lose jobs when kiosks take orders for customers! Additionally his argument is just false. Service will still be needed on vehicles who cares if the service people are employed by a dealer or the car manufacturer? Eliminating dated high pressure low value sales jobs can only benefit the car industry as a whole. Those jobs can transition into informational positions. | If those franchise dealerships started shutting down due to direct to consumer sales then those employees would probably end up working at the manufacturers stores. They still need sales people to sway consumers to buy their products. They still need mechanics to fix their vehicles. There may be some loss of jobs but it s like any industry when the model shifts (maybe like Uber Lyft vs taxis?) | 50 | 6 | 2,089 |
7x17bt | 28 | [Discussion] Regarding laws preventing manufacture direct selling: Why should states repeal these laws and open a Pandora s Box ? I apologize if the title of the post seem inflammatory as I don t really know how to title it correctly given my current question discussion. Let me begin: I was recently speaking with family about laws policies etc. and the conversation directed towards laws that make you go uhh what to oversimplify it. Naturally I brought up the laws that prevent Tesla from selling directly to consumer. My argument was basically this: > Tesla have identified a model that works for them meaning direct-to-consumer but local dealerships have cornered the politicians to dis-allow this from happening. These rules need to be repealed because it prevents Tesla from using a model that has worked for them in favor of what has always worked Disclaimer: I have a strong bias for challenging the status quo because due to my experience with the military this is the way it s always been done has never been a valid defense for any argument. Therefore I understand that not everyone agrees with my challenge the status quo opinion. My dad s argument was basically this: > I m not against Tesla selling directly to consumers but I believe if we allow Tesla to sell directly to consumers it will open a Pandora s box that could hurt an entire industry an industry that is very very large. His argument revolves around the idea that if Tesla is allowed to sell directly to consumers nation wide other manufacturers might want to do the same which would therefore destroy the current model and put millions of people out of a job business. I think this is an interesting take against Tesla selling directly to consumer and I m not really sure how to argue against this without admitting that jobs can be lost at first. I don t agree with this idea at all because you re basically arguing that Tesla shouldn t be allowed to use a sale s model (that works for them) due to the possibility of something bad happening. What are people s thoughts about this? I think this sub would most likely agree about whether Tesla should be allowed to sell directly to consumers but I m just wondering how people would counter-argue the point my dad made above. | As an owner I have experienced both the sales side and the maintenance side of the equation. There is an interesting trade off. The sales side was great and it s pretty easy to understand the advantages and much ink has been spilled discussing this. On the ownership maintenance side there are some significant downsides to a fully manufacturer owned model. This model allows the manufacturer to keep tight control over their parts and maintenance data as well as service costs rates. As has been discussed the service plans from Tesla are *expensive* and there s no competition. There can t even be competition because Tesla refuses to even disclose torque specs for the vehicles. So you re trapped into using Tesla service. With other makes there are generally independent shops because they can get the data just like a dealer can. When a manufacturer has franchises they have to distribute and disclose how to repair the cars. They can t build their model on secrecy. Tesla very actively wants secrecy as seen by the fact that you can only get maintenance manuals in the only state with a law that requires it. They have all the infrastructure to give them to owners and then added infrastructure to make sure you can only buy them in MA. That tells you all you need to know about Tesla and their maintenance attitude. I d assume that when you start as a mechanic at Tesla you sign an NDA unlike other dealers. Finally Tesla won t even sell you parts unless you can prove you own *that* car. Go to any other dealer and they ask you for a VIN in order to make sure they are selling you the right part. Go to Tesla and they check your account for the VIN and if that part wasn t originally on the car you bought they won t sell it to you at all. I d say if states currently block Tesla but are changing that they should also add a right-to-repair law to the books at the same time so that owners actually have some competition when it comes to the next 15 years of ownership not just thinking about the 1 day when the sale occurs. | Something occurred to me the other day on this topic- I m buying a used 500e and am not in CA or WA the only 2 states Fiat decided to sell them. This is my choice but I also found it ironic that calling up several local Fiat dealerships all said “Nope. We can t help you we can t work on the electric version sorry.” I get the point that they didn t invest in the training or the tools to support a vehicle they ll likely never see but the whole “we need dealerships to be able to service the cars in case the manufacturers decide not to!” argument breaks down in this weird edge case. (I finally found one about 60mi away so hopefully I won t have to visit very often...) | 47 | 3 | 2,090 |
7x4pyb | 41 | Tesla vs other automakers Remember these things when you think about swaying to other car manufacturers: * The EV1 which GM discontinued and refused to sell to its customers after the leasing period ended despite customers demand for buying out the car. * Bmws fugly short-ranged i3 that was either intentially or unintentionally designed and made to not appeal or satisfy the market to refrain people from adopting electric vehicles and potentially cannibalising existing lineup. * Or the i8 what market segment was that aimed for? * Remember Mercedes didn t think Tesla was a threat? But still it went ahead and dismantled and teared down a Model X which was rented through Sixt and was owned by an older couple and when caught tried to hide it? * Rember the Porsche product manager that said > The thing about Ludicrous mode is that it s a facade . Maybe he was bitter that a 2100 kg family sedan outdraged their fastest sportscars 0-100km h? No one should be an unconditional tesla supporter.. It s just that all those fat automaker CEO:s does nothing more than focus on doing better quarerly results than the guy they succeeded instead of focusing on bringing out revolutionary products than will progress mankind. Tesla may not have the most premium interior or the best production line but Elon is a visionary and has his own personal finance hostaged to the success of Tesla. I will buy a Tesla simply because I want to see the under dog crush the trashtalkers and force them onto their toes. | Jesus this is too much fanboyism even for this sub. > The EV1 which GM discontinued and refused to sell to its customers after the leasing period ended despite customers demand for buying out the car. Because they didn t want to provide long term support for that car in the 90s. EV tech was very immature and you can t blame a company for wanting to maximize profit first. > Bmws fugly short-ranged i3 that was either intentially or unintentionally designed and made to not appeal or satisfy the market to refrain people from adopting electric vehicles and potentially cannibalising existing lineup. Not everyone shares your taste. i3 sold very well and is seen as very hip from where I live. Hell I d personally considering it over the Model 3 because it s a lot more cost effective as a daily commuter. I think it s cute and its small size is perfect for urban areas. > Or the i8 what market segment was that aimed for? Go to LA there aren t many cars with doors that go like \\_ at that price range let alone a hybrid sports car. > Remember Mercedes didn t think Tesla was a threat? Tesla is still not a threat Mercedes has been breaking sales record years after years since Model S became available. The SUV market is booming. > But still it went ahead and dismantled and teared down a Model X which was rented through Sixt and was owned by an older couple and when caught tried to hide it? Everyone does it to everyone s product doesn t mean they see it as a threat it s silly not to. You obviously don t know how auto industry works. Hell maybe they discovered how badly produced Model X was just to reinforce how much advantage Mercedes still hold in production. > Rember the Porsche product manager that said > The thing about Ludicrous mode is that it s a facade . Maybe he was bitter that a 2100 kg family sedan outdraged their fastest sportscars 0-100km h? Porsches don t make sports cars that optimizes for 0-100km h. You obviously are not familiar with the world of performance cars if you think these companies actually care about 0-100km h. Case in point: Porsche s fastest 0-100 car is 20% the price of their most expensive model. The newest McLaren flagship is actually *slower* in 0-100km h than the P1 from 4 years ago and a $100k Dodge can outdrag most $1M hypercars. The only performance company that s obsessed with this metric is Tesla and Tesla alone. It is also a facade because it s a 2100lbs family sedan with a $45k drag racing package that doesn t improve handling braking or even top speed. It also sacrifices range. Porsche would never ship a car without it offering great driver experience and able to deliver a good Nurburgring time. No Tesla is able to achieve those at the moment. | There are 2 relevant questions:- 1) Do you think the world will soon rapidly transition to EVs? 2) Do you think Tesla will survive and be a viable long term car maker? My answers are:- 1) Yes 2) Yes. I would not claim Tesla does everything perfectly far from it but I would say their long term strategy and what they trying to achieve is excellent how they execute that strategy is at times poor. If think other car makers will eventuality come on board due to 1) above... the transition to EVs is difficult for them ... mostly they would prefer it didn t happen but IMO it is inevitable. | 50 | 2 | 2,091 |
7x4pyb | 41 | Tesla vs other automakers Remember these things when you think about swaying to other car manufacturers: * The EV1 which GM discontinued and refused to sell to its customers after the leasing period ended despite customers demand for buying out the car. * Bmws fugly short-ranged i3 that was either intentially or unintentionally designed and made to not appeal or satisfy the market to refrain people from adopting electric vehicles and potentially cannibalising existing lineup. * Or the i8 what market segment was that aimed for? * Remember Mercedes didn t think Tesla was a threat? But still it went ahead and dismantled and teared down a Model X which was rented through Sixt and was owned by an older couple and when caught tried to hide it? * Rember the Porsche product manager that said > The thing about Ludicrous mode is that it s a facade . Maybe he was bitter that a 2100 kg family sedan outdraged their fastest sportscars 0-100km h? No one should be an unconditional tesla supporter.. It s just that all those fat automaker CEO:s does nothing more than focus on doing better quarerly results than the guy they succeeded instead of focusing on bringing out revolutionary products than will progress mankind. Tesla may not have the most premium interior or the best production line but Elon is a visionary and has his own personal finance hostaged to the success of Tesla. I will buy a Tesla simply because I want to see the under dog crush the trashtalkers and force them onto their toes. | Jesus this is too much fanboyism even for this sub. > The EV1 which GM discontinued and refused to sell to its customers after the leasing period ended despite customers demand for buying out the car. Because they didn t want to provide long term support for that car in the 90s. EV tech was very immature and you can t blame a company for wanting to maximize profit first. > Bmws fugly short-ranged i3 that was either intentially or unintentionally designed and made to not appeal or satisfy the market to refrain people from adopting electric vehicles and potentially cannibalising existing lineup. Not everyone shares your taste. i3 sold very well and is seen as very hip from where I live. Hell I d personally considering it over the Model 3 because it s a lot more cost effective as a daily commuter. I think it s cute and its small size is perfect for urban areas. > Or the i8 what market segment was that aimed for? Go to LA there aren t many cars with doors that go like \\_ at that price range let alone a hybrid sports car. > Remember Mercedes didn t think Tesla was a threat? Tesla is still not a threat Mercedes has been breaking sales record years after years since Model S became available. The SUV market is booming. > But still it went ahead and dismantled and teared down a Model X which was rented through Sixt and was owned by an older couple and when caught tried to hide it? Everyone does it to everyone s product doesn t mean they see it as a threat it s silly not to. You obviously don t know how auto industry works. Hell maybe they discovered how badly produced Model X was just to reinforce how much advantage Mercedes still hold in production. > Rember the Porsche product manager that said > The thing about Ludicrous mode is that it s a facade . Maybe he was bitter that a 2100 kg family sedan outdraged their fastest sportscars 0-100km h? Porsches don t make sports cars that optimizes for 0-100km h. You obviously are not familiar with the world of performance cars if you think these companies actually care about 0-100km h. Case in point: Porsche s fastest 0-100 car is 20% the price of their most expensive model. The newest McLaren flagship is actually *slower* in 0-100km h than the P1 from 4 years ago and a $100k Dodge can outdrag most $1M hypercars. The only performance company that s obsessed with this metric is Tesla and Tesla alone. It is also a facade because it s a 2100lbs family sedan with a $45k drag racing package that doesn t improve handling braking or even top speed. It also sacrifices range. Porsche would never ship a car without it offering great driver experience and able to deliver a good Nurburgring time. No Tesla is able to achieve those at the moment. | Username checks out. | 50 | 10 | 2,092 |
7x4pyb | 41 | Tesla vs other automakers Remember these things when you think about swaying to other car manufacturers: * The EV1 which GM discontinued and refused to sell to its customers after the leasing period ended despite customers demand for buying out the car. * Bmws fugly short-ranged i3 that was either intentially or unintentionally designed and made to not appeal or satisfy the market to refrain people from adopting electric vehicles and potentially cannibalising existing lineup. * Or the i8 what market segment was that aimed for? * Remember Mercedes didn t think Tesla was a threat? But still it went ahead and dismantled and teared down a Model X which was rented through Sixt and was owned by an older couple and when caught tried to hide it? * Rember the Porsche product manager that said > The thing about Ludicrous mode is that it s a facade . Maybe he was bitter that a 2100 kg family sedan outdraged their fastest sportscars 0-100km h? No one should be an unconditional tesla supporter.. It s just that all those fat automaker CEO:s does nothing more than focus on doing better quarerly results than the guy they succeeded instead of focusing on bringing out revolutionary products than will progress mankind. Tesla may not have the most premium interior or the best production line but Elon is a visionary and has his own personal finance hostaged to the success of Tesla. I will buy a Tesla simply because I want to see the under dog crush the trashtalkers and force them onto their toes. | BMW sold 31400 i3 last year. Not everyone has your tastes. Like you say though those other companies are focused on making profit for their shareholders which didn t involve pushing EV tech and Tesla is pure desirable EV. There is now a big push for the others to make EVs so they can sell in China. Thank you Tesla and China! | There are 2 relevant questions:- 1) Do you think the world will soon rapidly transition to EVs? 2) Do you think Tesla will survive and be a viable long term car maker? My answers are:- 1) Yes 2) Yes. I would not claim Tesla does everything perfectly far from it but I would say their long term strategy and what they trying to achieve is excellent how they execute that strategy is at times poor. If think other car makers will eventuality come on board due to 1) above... the transition to EVs is difficult for them ... mostly they would prefer it didn t happen but IMO it is inevitable. | 32 | 2 | 2,093 |
7x9o6n | 45 | Musings on the most recent Model 3 delay. (warning: long read!) Like many of you I have recently gone through the [five stages of grief](https: en.wikipedia.org wiki K%C3%BCbler-Ross_model) regarding the delay as it was unceremoniously dropped on us in the dark of night after an earnings call. Perhaps it s just the Acceptance stage talking but in retrospect I think exactly none of us were truly surprised about this. All signs had been pointing to a real production delay for a while but we clung to the hope that there was some secret cache of 3 s sitting in the lot just waiting for us Elon Claus miraculously delivering to our overjoyed hearts on time and with perfect quality. Oh joyous day! But let s be honest here. The signs were all there for a while and they at Tesla knew that pushing back the release window (again!) was going to cause a major shitstorm. Every time they announce a delay it s a major distraction and a hit to the brand... and each delay compounds that. They don t want delays any more than we the customers do. And so they chose the perfect time for this painful announcement right as they were teaming with sister company SpaceX for probably the greatest advertisement of all time. When I reserved my Model 3 on 3 31 16 I knew it would be at least two years before I had one in my garage. We all knew shipping in 2017 meant they d release one Model 3 to one customer on 12 31 17. Let s see... not a current owner live on east coast carry the 1... I probably won t get mine until summer fall of 2018. Needing a car in the fall of 2016 I opted for a two-year lease to tide me over until my own assumed Model 3 delivery window. So when it was announced that Model 3 production was actually ahead of schedule I was shocked. Having a delivery event in July 2017 was an amazing change of course for a company known to run on Elon Standard Time . Had Tesla finally conquered the time beast? My initial delivery window was revealed to be Nov-Dec 2017 and I had to mentally prepare myself for an early arrival for my new baby. What a pleasant surprise even if I had to figure out what to do with my existing lease! And then the first wave of reality crashed on Tesla s beach pushing back their optimistic delivery window. We were all miffed but unsurprised. And another. My delivery window was now Dec-Feb. Each delay was another month or so I would have to potentially wait. Being a stalker of all news Tesla-related the delay came as no big surprise. Late last year early this year news finally began to surface about a serious ramp-up in production. It seemed like they had finally conquered the bottlenecks and all systems were go. Great news and the lack of another delay to my anticipated delivery window had me finally (and earnestly) preparing for our new family member. Which is why the most recent delay was so devastating. This wasn t a one-month slip but a major delay that pushed me to the March-May window. And we all know that means May... at best. The cries of agony rippled through the community pitchforks brandished and torches ablaze. We ve been deceived! Empty promises! were the cries of the faithful. However in retrospect and when viewed holistically is this really so bad? Is it really that surprising? Like I said when I initially plunked down $1000 sight-unseen for a Model 3 I assumed I wouldn t get to touch it for two and a half years. If this date holds I ll actually have it a few months *before* I expected to initially. It is due to the size of this delay and its timing that I believe this will be the final delay for Model 3 production. It was an incredibly painful admission for Tesla and they really ripped the band-aid off at the right time (when one of their cars got blasted to Mars). Think they want to go through all that again? I don t. They finally dropped this bomb only when they actually had a handle on production and were able to formulate a real calculable estimate. I m sure plenty of customers got pissed and canceled their orders. However there are still legions of us sticking with our reservation receiving a quality car on a delayed schedule is infinitely better than an early shoddy one. I ll wait a few months for them to make sure it s right and I know a lot of others will too. When the general public sees that Tesla has produced a winner that is (relatively) affordable the orders will pour in once again. Those who canceled their reservations will have a serious moment of remorse though they ll be loathe to admit it. Me? I ll take my new baby with arms wide open at about the time I expected to receive it from the very beginning. Thanks for reading my wall of text (if you did) and my excitement still hasn t faded after these two+ years. | Feel the same way you do but one big omission from your post: the fact that SR battery has been pushed to the very back of the line. Delays were expected and that Tesla is even delivering what they re currently delivering is a small miracle... however what s not sitting well with many is that it looks like people willing to pay more (for LR PUP and now seemingly AWD) will get to cut in line. For the many that stood in line to reserve or have been waiting for years for the “affordable EV” it s going to leave a bad taste. What s more while the waiting might not be so bad it s also likely going to cost them some all of the federal tax credit. Tesla is in a rough spot and I understand some tough decisions are being made. Personally I just think they should be a little more transparent about their plans. | Well.... you did warn about the long read.... TLDR? | 28 | 2 | 2,094 |
7xbax9 | 169 | New EAP Behavior Today! I have a Model S 90D With AP2 hardware built April 2017. I m running software 2017.50. Today I was leaving my house to come to work. I happened to glance down and autosteer is available in my neighborhood. That s never happened before. I enabled it and it worked just fine. I had to disable it for stop signs and turns as you d expect. What s odd is that there were no lane markings. There are not now nor have there ever been lane markings in my neighborhood. Autopilot showed one or two blue lane lines on the display and was following them. This is definitely new behavior from the last couple of days. As a side note this was in a gated community so any map data Tesla has for these roads come from the three Tesla vehicles that live here. The roads are unusually wide in this neighborhood and I found after disabling autopilot that I had to go to the right side and let it lock on to the curb as the right-hand lane line. Then once I engaged autosteer it would find a phantom left lane line and use it too. I understand that the neural network might allow the use of a curb as a right-hand lane line but that doesn t explain where it extrapolated the left-hand lane line to be. I don t know if this is due to an ADAS map update where they finally got enough data to allow it to attempt these streets or something else but I thought it was worth noting for discussion. | Please post a video if you get a chance at all. This is incredibly exciting if it s repeatable. Maybe the neural net is beginning to recognize roads and lanes contextually instead of just based on lane markers or curbs. | So on a scale of 0-11 how excited should we be? | 60 | 2 | 2,095 |
7xexor | 112 | I know for a fact a non owner on the east coast took delivery of a Model 3 And it s b c Tesla goofed! 🤪 a reserved CPO Model S that is canceled on makes your account “owner” status lol. | Inb4 every model 3 reservation holder orders a CPO S and then cancels four seconds later. | Was it cancelled just recently or a while ago? Did a Model S show up in their account at the time of purchasing the Model 3? | 64 | 2 | 2,096 |
7xfi7q | 54 | This Model 3 just might take the record for ghosts in the machine... Screen that prompted this post: https: imgur.com ftGpyz1 History: Purchased a few weeks back from a CA seller. Seller had it in for service at the time due to a SIM issue (had no internet connectivity shortly after delivery). Had car shipped to me. Noted a few oddball connectivity hiccups over the following couple of weeks. Every few days the display would show an LTE connection with good signal but anything using the connection would time out (music maps phone app etc). Only way to correct this was to reboot the console (rebooted 4 times over 2 weeks for this issue). Example pic of the effect here: https: imgur.com RK6Ct16 Tired of dealing with the above and noticing that the frequency is increasing over time took the 3 in for service yesterday. Techs noted that car logs recorded the connectivity loss updated firmware to most recent (2018.4.6) performed a TSB on the charge port (unrelated) and within the same day called and even brought the car back out to me and picked their loaner (S 100D) back up. Great job from the service guys so far. Last night after getting home I check out the new Locks info and discover that one of the key cards is not properly coded (shows as an Unknown Key that can be deleted). Call Tesla service - tech states that Key Cards can only be recoded at a Service Center. Fair enough. I ll just do that next time if this connectivity issue repeats again. Get in car this morning. Stereo plays but all audio sounds like an old scratched audio CD (repeated ticking several times per second). Reboot console to fix and carry on with my day. Go to leave work get in car maps show up and seem to work fine but audio streaming no longer works: https: imgur.com M2g0GZx Call service center who asks to bring car in to show them the issue. Naturally the issue corrects itself on the way there. While there I bring up the suspension issue (this 3 appears to have the overly harsh bouncy ride noted by many in this thread: https: teslamotorsclub.com tmc threads model-3s-ride-quality.105757 page-12 - it s pretty bad on this one and that s coming from a guy with coilovers on his GTI). Also reported a dash creak that only happens on colder mornings. They say they will look into everything and schedule me to come back in Thursday morning as that is when they will have a loaner to swap me. Cool deal. I head home throw the car on the charger for a few hours step outside later on and notice that the screen looks funny. Hop in and am greeted by this: https: imgur.com yWGvX80 ...so yeah there appear to be some gremlins floating around in this particular 3. All told I ve rebooted the console ~10 times over 3 weeks for various issues. VIN 23xx for those curious. I guess I ll leave it looking like that and hope it stays that way until I bring it in for service on Thursday. More to follow... *edit 1*: Wednesday morning. Noisy screen has corrected itself but was now the car has reduced steering assist and needs service: https: imgur.com P7UVV2N *edit 2*: Thursday morning. Car dropped off for service. Tech had already pre-ordered dampers springs and rear sway end links for the retrofit. Tech also told me that engineering reviewed the current set of symptoms and directed replacement of the central computer . ETA for pick-up: Friday afternoon (seems quick for that much work). Service has been great fast courteous so far. *edit 3*: Following Wednesday. Picked car back up today. There was daily communication updating me on status. One of the suspension parts had not come in until Monday and they took some extra time troubleshooting a center console creak (phone holder hinge). They also recalibrated the autopilot (confirming both computers were replaced as a unit). Parts replaced: Suspension- RR SPRING COIL 74.7-7250 E3 RWD E3 DM (1044472-01-D) Spring - Rear Suspension - LH RR SPRING COIL 74.7-7250 E3 RWD E3 DM (1044472-01-D) Spring - Rear Suspension - RH DAMPER ASSY FR LH RWD COIL E3 (1044364-01-E) Spring and Damper Assembly - Front - LH DAMPER ASSY FR RH RWD COIL E3 (1044369-01-E) Spring and Damper Assembly - Front - RH RR LWR FORE LINK ASSY (1044444-00-A) Link - Front Suspension - Lower - Fore - LH RR LWR FORE LINK ASSY (1044444-00-A) Link - Front Suspension - Lower - Fore - RH Computer(s): CAR COMPUTER MCU ADAS ASSY (1098058-S0-F) For the repeating intermittent steering assist reduced issue they updated the firmware to 2018.4.8-13 . This is not the car firmware (currently on 2018.4.8 9b31a91). It appears that some of the subsystems were not taking updates during the main firmware update process presumably due to the issues with the MCU (my theory not Tesla s). As for the car so far so good. All of these issues were intermittent in nature so I ll keep an eye on things and report back if anything crops up. Also wanted to note that I ve dealt with plenty of service departments over the years and my experience with Tesla service has been hands down the best experience out of all of them so far. | Hats off to those of you early owners...doing god s work. | Yeah that s a **Major** problem. | 54 | 9 | 2,097 |
7xkktr | 116 | Teslas not having CarPlay Android Auto is actually a massive disadvantage. Yes I know they have their own interface which is absolutely essential to the operation of the car and yes they have massive displays but integrated phone software is a big draw for literally every other car manufacturer and it s actually become an expected feature. (E.g. the new leaf has it the egolf has it the Ioniq has it the model 3 doesn t.) It wouldn t even have to take the whole screen either - it could be an option for a multiwindow that still leaves most of the Tesla specific functions intact. The android apple interfaces were designed to work on a much smaller screen than the Tesla screens so using it in windowed mode wouldn t cause issues. Benefits: * Google maps best maps (or Waze if that s your jam) - any proprietary solution is never going to stand up to the computational power and machine learning of Google picking that fight is like choosing to fight a hungry bear by exposing your fleshy belly. * Best voice assistant in the world * All the media on your phone can be controlled by said voice assistant no fucking about with pairing and submenus and no having to pull over to safely change from a music playlist to a podcast * Ever have those moments when you re driving and you think of something you need to remember later? Ok Google note to self ___________ - Tesla s can t do that. Tldr leccy car need ok google plz. | Seems to me like everyone in this thread is trying to rationalize Tesla not adding these features. If I have to pull out my phone to check traffic on Google maps or stream music over Bluetooth then their infotainment system is already worse than other systems that support Android auto. Not to mention they spend valuable development time on in house solutions that get ignored in favor of using apps on my phone instead. | I d be happy if they just added voice to text and text to voice. | 66 | 3 | 2,098 |
7xkktr | 116 | Teslas not having CarPlay Android Auto is actually a massive disadvantage. Yes I know they have their own interface which is absolutely essential to the operation of the car and yes they have massive displays but integrated phone software is a big draw for literally every other car manufacturer and it s actually become an expected feature. (E.g. the new leaf has it the egolf has it the Ioniq has it the model 3 doesn t.) It wouldn t even have to take the whole screen either - it could be an option for a multiwindow that still leaves most of the Tesla specific functions intact. The android apple interfaces were designed to work on a much smaller screen than the Tesla screens so using it in windowed mode wouldn t cause issues. Benefits: * Google maps best maps (or Waze if that s your jam) - any proprietary solution is never going to stand up to the computational power and machine learning of Google picking that fight is like choosing to fight a hungry bear by exposing your fleshy belly. * Best voice assistant in the world * All the media on your phone can be controlled by said voice assistant no fucking about with pairing and submenus and no having to pull over to safely change from a music playlist to a podcast * Ever have those moments when you re driving and you think of something you need to remember later? Ok Google note to self ___________ - Tesla s can t do that. Tldr leccy car need ok google plz. | Seems to me like everyone in this thread is trying to rationalize Tesla not adding these features. If I have to pull out my phone to check traffic on Google maps or stream music over Bluetooth then their infotainment system is already worse than other systems that support Android auto. Not to mention they spend valuable development time on in house solutions that get ignored in favor of using apps on my phone instead. | Yeah I understand what Tesla is trying to do by having full control of the interface and eschewing what they see as stopgap solutions in Android Auto Carplay but they aren t even close to feature parity with them and as far as I know there have been zero announcements about adding features that would do that. It would be great if they just bit the bullet and allowed these. I m not looking forward to losing AA when I get my Model 3 and going back to just normal Bluetooth controls for podcasts and google play music. | 66 | 4 | 2,099 |
7xkktr | 116 | Teslas not having CarPlay Android Auto is actually a massive disadvantage. Yes I know they have their own interface which is absolutely essential to the operation of the car and yes they have massive displays but integrated phone software is a big draw for literally every other car manufacturer and it s actually become an expected feature. (E.g. the new leaf has it the egolf has it the Ioniq has it the model 3 doesn t.) It wouldn t even have to take the whole screen either - it could be an option for a multiwindow that still leaves most of the Tesla specific functions intact. The android apple interfaces were designed to work on a much smaller screen than the Tesla screens so using it in windowed mode wouldn t cause issues. Benefits: * Google maps best maps (or Waze if that s your jam) - any proprietary solution is never going to stand up to the computational power and machine learning of Google picking that fight is like choosing to fight a hungry bear by exposing your fleshy belly. * Best voice assistant in the world * All the media on your phone can be controlled by said voice assistant no fucking about with pairing and submenus and no having to pull over to safely change from a music playlist to a podcast * Ever have those moments when you re driving and you think of something you need to remember later? Ok Google note to self ___________ - Tesla s can t do that. Tldr leccy car need ok google plz. | Seems to me like everyone in this thread is trying to rationalize Tesla not adding these features. If I have to pull out my phone to check traffic on Google maps or stream music over Bluetooth then their infotainment system is already worse than other systems that support Android auto. Not to mention they spend valuable development time on in house solutions that get ignored in favor of using apps on my phone instead. | Why would they put those in when they want you to use their native system and maps? Same reason why you can t get google maps on Apple CarPlay. Shitty for us but the reality is that they have no reason to integrate that and give up that data. | 66 | 5 | 2,100 |
7xmep0 | 92 | Current owners are given unlimited skips to the front I initially put down two first day online reservations. The first one became available Jan 4th and the second became available Jan 17th. After I ordered both cars and decided to put down a third just in case something happens to one of the first two. The reservation was made on Feb 7th 2018. Initially the estimate for the first production was Late 2018 however I checked today and it s available to configure. I was under the impression that current owners would at least have to wait a little bit. | My brother is a current owner in Las Vegas. Reserved his Model 3 six days ago and just got invited to configure. . *edited for clarification he placed the reservation six days ago. | Tesla trusts that current owners will be more willing to buy a higher gross margin car and be less picky when it comes to accepting cars with defects. I would assume from here on out any owner who puts down a reservation will be in the next configuration batch. | 62 | 6 | 2,101 |
7xmep0 | 92 | Current owners are given unlimited skips to the front I initially put down two first day online reservations. The first one became available Jan 4th and the second became available Jan 17th. After I ordered both cars and decided to put down a third just in case something happens to one of the first two. The reservation was made on Feb 7th 2018. Initially the estimate for the first production was Late 2018 however I checked today and it s available to configure. I was under the impression that current owners would at least have to wait a little bit. | I feel you. I like to keep a third car around as insurance just in case something happens to all my others. | Tesla trusts that current owners will be more willing to buy a higher gross margin car and be less picky when it comes to accepting cars with defects. I would assume from here on out any owner who puts down a reservation will be in the next configuration batch. | 60 | 6 | 2,102 |
7xmep0 | 92 | Current owners are given unlimited skips to the front I initially put down two first day online reservations. The first one became available Jan 4th and the second became available Jan 17th. After I ordered both cars and decided to put down a third just in case something happens to one of the first two. The reservation was made on Feb 7th 2018. Initially the estimate for the first production was Late 2018 however I checked today and it s available to configure. I was under the impression that current owners would at least have to wait a little bit. | My brother is a current owner in Las Vegas. Reserved his Model 3 six days ago and just got invited to configure. . *edited for clarification he placed the reservation six days ago. | > After I ordered both cars and decided to put down a third just in case something happens to one of the first two. The reservation was made on Feb 7th 2018. Initially the estimate for the first production was Late 2018 however I checked today and it s available to configure. I was under the impression that current owners would at least have to wait a little bit. A possible explanation would be that **the first non-owner Model 3 deliveries are imminent** (excluding queuing trickeries where Tesla owner reserves and configures but non-owner friend walks in and signs the papers): the residual queue of owners who have not received the currently available Model 3 configuration (LR+RWD+premium) yet is very short. | 62 | 8 | 2,103 |
7xnn5g | 91 | Invites to owners are almost done To see the latest data click [HERE](https: docs.google.com spreadsheets d 1BWscIZyLsh42IHcj1AJNfEF-vzj-vRo-3skcCXgO_Nc edit#gid=1026038081& fvid=1763166747) wait a few seconds for filters to kick in then look at Col H (Reservation date) and Col K (Invite date) as you scroll down. Some owners who reserved last month have received invites. In a few days Tesla will need more people to configure but this doesn t necessarily mean invites to non-owners. They could pick onIt could be one of the following: * Add white interior to the configurator * Add AWD to the configurator * Send out invites to Canada * Send out invites to non-owner line-waiters in the US | I really hope line waiters get a chance after current owners. | My F5 key is ready for an update. | 47 | 18 | 2,104 |
7xnn5g | 91 | Invites to owners are almost done To see the latest data click [HERE](https: docs.google.com spreadsheets d 1BWscIZyLsh42IHcj1AJNfEF-vzj-vRo-3skcCXgO_Nc edit#gid=1026038081& fvid=1763166747) wait a few seconds for filters to kick in then look at Col H (Reservation date) and Col K (Invite date) as you scroll down. Some owners who reserved last month have received invites. In a few days Tesla will need more people to configure but this doesn t necessarily mean invites to non-owners. They could pick onIt could be one of the following: * Add white interior to the configurator * Add AWD to the configurator * Send out invites to Canada * Send out invites to non-owner line-waiters in the US | You said almost a month ago there was [a 90% chance this would happen by February 10th](https: www.reddit.com r teslamotors comments 7rung7 model_3_vin_based_analysis_shows_standard_range ). Your words: > I don t know which option is more likely but I know the changes are imminent. My guess is there is 60% chance one of these things will happen by the end of this month and 90% chance it will happen by 10 Feb 2018. It wasn t imminent. If you keep posting it eventually one of those 4 things will become true. However you should call this speculation because that s what it is. I honestly have no problem with speculation at all but threads like the last one being framed as facts supported by data just primes other people for disappointment when it invariably doesn t happen. | AWD white interior? Please let that be next. | 30 | 3 | 2,105 |
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