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re islam borders was israel misisipi to ganges in article apr thunder mcrcim mcgill edu hasan mcrcim mcgill edu writes in article bimacs bitnet ehrlich bimacs bitnet gideon ehrlich writes hassan and some other seemed not to be a ware that jews celebrating on these days thje passover holliday the holidy of going a way from the nile so if one let his imagination freely work it seemed beter to write that the zionist drean is from the misisipi to the nile the question is by going east or west from the misisipi on either choice you would loose palestine or broklyn n y i thought you re gonna say fromn misisipi back to the misisipi nonononnononono its from the nile to the nile the long way
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re islam borders vs israeli borders ilyess bdira writes the islamic world dreams of being the whole planet but not by kicking the current inhabitant out we rather deam of the day everybody converts if jews had the same dream i would not feel threatened a bit so i should be very comfortable that people want to convert me to islam or to convert me to anything there are many types of violence physical murder is only one trying to convert is an insult it s like trying to tell me that me and or my god my lack of god are just crap that i need a new converted one this does not apply for muslims only of course same for jews and for some friendly nicely dressed neighbours who show on sunday with empty speaches and cheap booklets about some church and when the objective is i think however that you are wrong to convert everybody it s just a matter of time when violence will occur aren t we able to learn anything from thouthands of years of conversion related violence why not let the other more inferiour people live as they wish and take care your business you do assume that they are inferiour or their beliefs are as long as you want to change their thinking dorin
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re armenian killings in kelbadjar azerbadjan continues in article apr kth se hilmi er dsv su se hilmi eren writes armenian killings in kelbadjar azerbadjan continues armenian attackers continues it s attack against kelbadjar azerbadjan people have been evacuated from kelbadjar are still in town the fascist x soviet armenian government also hired mercenaries to slaughter azeris this time the armenian government says that the forces aren t from armenia but from nagorno karabag heavy weapons and ordertaking from france is the result turkey s president turgut ozal says if un doesn t act then we may have to show our teeth before the situation becomes worse finally about time serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
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re while armenians destroyed all the moslem villages in the plain in article pol inna u cascade cs ubc ca kvdoel cs ubc ca kees van den doel writes see you are a pathological liar you got a crack in your record i think this is the point we seem to disagree about not a chance i keep seeing that line over and over that s pathetic even for serdar argic well arromdian of asala sdpa arf terrorism and revisionism triangle is a compulsive liar now try dealing with the rest of what i wrote u s ambassador bristol source u s library of congress bristol papers general correspondence container while the dashnaks were in power they did everything in the world to keep the pot boiling by attacking kurds turks and tartars by committing outrages against the moslems by massacring the moslems and robbing and destroying their homes during the last two years the armenians in russian caucasus have shown no ability to govern themselves and especially no ability to govern or handle other races under their power a kurdish scholar source hassan arfa the kurds london pp when the russian armies invaded turkey after the sarikamish disaster of their columns were preceded by battalions of irregular armenian volunteers both from the caucasus and from turkey one of these was commanded by a certain andranik a blood thirsty adventurer these armenian volunteers committed all kinds of excesses more than six hundred thousand kurds being killed between and in the eastern vilayets of turkey serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
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re no land for peace no negotiatians in article apr unocal com stssdxb st unocal com dorin baru writes alan stein writes what are you talking about the rabin government has clearly indicated its interest in a territorial compromise that would leave the vast majority of the arabs in judea samaria and gaza outside israeli control just an interrupting comment here since early s israelis said they are willing to give up the adminstration rule of the occupied terretories to palestineans palestineans refused and will refuse such settlement that denies them their right of self determination period i know i was just pointing out that not compromising may be a bad idea and there are in israel voices against negotiations and i think there are many among palestineans also against any negociations just an opinion dorin ok i donot know why there are israeli voices against negotiations however i would guess that is because they refuse giving back a land for those who have the right for it as for the arabian and palestinean voices that are against the current negotiations and the so called peace process they are not against peace per se but rather for their well founded predictions that israel would not give an inch of the west bank and most probably the same for golan heights back to the arabs an months of negotiations in madrid and washington proved these predictions now many will jump on me saying why are you blaming israelis for no result negotiations i would say why would the arabs stall the negotiations what do they have to loose arabs feel that the current negotiations is only for legitimizing the current status quo and for opening the doors of the arab markets for israeli trade and oranges that is simply unacceptable and would be revoked just an opinion hasan
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re the systematic genocide of the muslim population by the armenians in article apr massey ac nz cblack massey ac nz c k black writes mr furr does it again very sensible he says how many mutlus can dance on the head of a pin and lo and behold he invokes the mr of the net himself our beloved serdar a program designed to seek out the words terrx and ghex in the same sentence and gets the automated reply must you rave so fascist x soviet armenian government engaged in disgusting cowardly massacres of azeri women and children i am really sorry if that fact bothers you our mutlu oboy this is exciting first you discuss your literature tastes then your fantasies and now your choices of entertainment have you considered just turning on the tv and leaving those of us who aren t brain dead to continue to discuss the genocide of million muslim people by the x soviet armenian government etc etc etc more ridicule i take it still not addressing the original points made joel don t do this to me mate i m only a poor plant scientist i don t know how to make kill files my k key works overtime as it is just to then what seems to be the problem did you ever read newspaper at all painful search the gruesome extent of february s killings of azeris by armenians in the town of hojali is at last emerging in azerbaijan about men women and children dead in the worst outrage of the four year war over nagorny karabakh the figure is drawn from azeri investigators hojali officials and casualty lists published in the baku press diplomats and aid workers say the death toll is in line with their own estimates the february attack on hojali by armenian forces was one of the last moves in their four year campaign to take full control of nagorny karabakh the subject of a new round of negotiations in rome on monday the bloodshed was something between a fighting retreat and a massacre but investigators say that most of the dead were civilians the awful number of people killed was first suppressed by the fearful former communist government in baku later it was blurred by armenian denials and grief stricken azerbaijan s wild and contradictory allegations of up to dead the state prosecuter aydin rasulov the cheif investigator of a man team looking into what azerbaijan calls the hojali disaster said his figure of people dead was a minimum on preliminary findings a similar estimate was given by elman memmedov the mayor of hojali an even higher one was printed in the baku newspaper ordu in may dead people named and more than bodies reported unidentified this figure of nearly dead is quoted as official by leila yunusova the new spokeswoman of the azeri ministry of defence francois zen ruffinen head of delegation of the international red cross in baku said the muslim imam of the nearby city of agdam had reported a figure of bodies received at his mosque from hojali most of them civilians we did not count the bodies but the figure seems reasonable it is no fantasy mr zen ruffinen said we have some idea since we gave the body bags and products to wash the dead mr rasulov endeavours to give an unemotional estimate of the number of dead in the massacre don t get worked up it will take several months to get a final figure the year old lawyer said at his small office mr rasulov knows about these things it took him two years to reach a firm conclusion that people were killed and wounded when soviet troops and tanks crushed a nationalist uprising in baku in january those nationalists the popular front finally came to power three weeks ago and are applying pressure to find out exactly what happened when hojali an azeri town which lies about miles from the border with armenia fell to the armenians officially people have so far been certified as dead being the number of people that could be medically examined by the republic s forensic department this is just a small percentage of the dead said rafiq youssifov the republic s chief forensic scientist they were the only bodies brought to us remember the chaos and the fact that we are muslims and have to wash and bury our dead within hours of these people were women and were children under years old gunshots killed people shrapnel killed and axes or blunt instruments killed exposure in the highland snows killed the last three thirty three people showed signs of deliberate mutilation including ears noses breasts or penises cut off and eyes gouged out according to professor youssifov s report those bodies examined were less than a third of those believed to have been killed mr rasulov said files from mr rasulov s investigative commission are still disorganised lists of azeri militiamen are dead here six policemen there and in handwriting of a mosque attendant the names of corpses brought to be washed in just one day the most heartbreaking account from witnesses interviewed so far comes from towfiq manafov an azeri investigator who took a helicopter flight over the escape route from hojali on february there were too many bodies of dead and wounded on the ground to count properly in hojali people by the stream and the road and visible around nakhchivanik village mr manafov wrote in a statement countersigned by the helicopter pilot people waved up to us for help we saw three dead children and one two year old alive by one dead woman the live one was pulling at her arm for the mother to get up we tried to land but armenians started a barrage against our helicopter and we had to return there has been no consolidation of the lists and figures in circulation because of the political upheavals of the last few months and the fact that nobody knows exactly who was in hojali at the time many inhabitants were displaced from other villages taken over by armenian forces the independent london heroes who fought on amid the bodies aref sadikov sat quietly in the shade of a cafe bar on the caspian sea esplanade of baku and showed a line of stitches in his trousers torn by an armenian bullet as he fled the town of hojali just over three months ago writes hugh pope i m still wearing the same clothes i don t have any others the year old carpenter said beginning his account of the hojali disaster i was wounded in five places but i am lucky to be alive mr sadikov and his wife were short of food without electricity for more than a month and cut off from helicopter flights for days they sensed the armenian noose was tightening around the to people left in the straggling azeri town on the edge of karabakh at about pm a bombardment started such as we had never heard before eight or nine kinds of weapons artillery heavy machine guns the lot mr sadikov said soon neighbours were pouring down the street from the direction of the attack some huddled in shelters but others started fleeing the town down a hill through a stream and through the snow into a forest on the other side to escape the townspeople had to reach the azeri town of agdam about miles away they thought they were going to make it until at about dawn they reached a bottleneck between the two armenian villages of nakhchivanik and saderak none of my group was hurt up to then then we were spotted by a car on the road and the armenian outposts started opening fire mr sadikov said azeri militiamen fighting their way out of hojali rushed forward to force open a corridor for the civilians but their efforts were mostly in vain mr sadikov said only people from his group of made it through including his wife and militiaman son seven of his immediate relations died including his year old elder brother i only had time to reach down and cover his face with his hat he said pulling his own big flat turkish cap over his eyes we have never got any of the bodies back the first groups were lucky to have the benefit of covering fire one hero of the evacuation alif hajief was shot dead as he struggled to change a magazine while covering the third group s crossing mr sadikov said another hero elman memmedov the mayor of hojali said he and several others spent the whole day of february in the bushy hillside surrounded by dead bodies as they tried to keep three armenian armoured personnel carriers at bay as the survivors staggered the last mile into agdam there was little comfort in a town from which most of the population was soon to flee the night after we reached the town there was a big armenian rocket attack some people just kept going mr sadikov said i had to get to the hospital for treatment i was in a bad way they even found a bullet in my sock victims of war an azeri woman mourns her son killed in the hojali massacre in february left nurses struggle in primitive conditions centre to save a wounded man in a makeshift operating theatre set up in a train carriage grief stricken relatives in the town of agdam right weep over the coffin of another of the massacre victims calculating the final death toll has been complicated because muslims bury their dead within hours photographs liu heung ap frederique lengaigne reuter the independent london serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
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re the systematic genocide of the muslim population by the armenians in article apr mnemosyne cs du edu jfurr nyx cs du edu joel furr writes i dunno warren just the other day i heard a rumor that serdar argic aka hasan mutlu and ahmed cosar and zumabot is not really a turk at all but in fact is an armenian th or th i must congratulate your analytical and excellent reportage about diana from the writings of tye biographers you quoted i can perceive maybe chauvinistically the remnants of her armenian genes even though she is only th armenian she seems to have many of the strong characteristics of armenian women her armenian ancestry is traced to eliza kewark an armenian from india who married the scottish merchant thedore forbes from the union was born kathleen scott forbes who married james crombie from aberdeen they had a daughter jane who married david littlejohn their daughter ruth married william gill ruth silvia gill the grandmother of lady diana married lord fermoy and their daughter frances ruth burke roache married the eight earl of spencer who was the father of lady diana it is noteworthy that eliza kewark was also referred to as mrs forbesian a characteristic armenian surname ending an armenian scottish gene mix is dynamite levon k topuzian assistant professor northwestern university skoie illinois time december letters who is attempting to make any discussion of the massacres in armenia of turks so noise laden as to make serious discussion impossible thereby cloaking the historical record with a tremendous cloud of confusion you have set up straw horses and knocked them down i m not impressed anyway the armenians tore apart the ottoman empire s eastern provinces massacred million defenseless turkish women children and elderly people burned thousands of turkish and kurdish villages and exterminated the entire turkish population of the armenian dictatorship between such outrageous sleight of hand that is still employed today in armenia brings a depth and verification to the turkish genocide that is hard to match a hundred years ago armenians again thought they could get whatever they wanted through sheer terror like the russian anarchists that they accepted as role models several armenian terror groups like asala sdpa arf terrorism and revisionism triangle resorted to the same tactics in the s butchering scores of innocent turks and their families in the united states and europe it seems that they are doing it again at a different scale in fascist x soviet armenia today source stanford j shaw on armenian collaboration with invading russian armies in history of the ottoman empire and modern turkey volume ii reform revolution republic the rise of modern turkey london cambridge university press pp in april dashnaks from russian armenia organized a revolt in the city of van whose armenians comprised percent of the population closest to an armenian majority of any city in the empire leaving erivan on april armenian volunteers reached van on may and organized and carried out a general slaughter of the local muslim population during the next two days while the small ottoman garrison had to retreat to the southern side of the lake knowing their numbers would never justify their territorial ambitions armenians looked to russia and europe for the fulfillment of their aims armenian treachery in this regard culminated at the beginning of the first world war with the decision of the revolutionary organizations to refuse to serve their state the ottoman empire and to assist instead other invading russian armies their hope was their participation in the russian success would be rewarded with an independent armenian state carved out of ottoman territories armenian political leaders army officers and common soldiers began deserting in droves with the russian invasion of eastern anatolia in at the beginning of world war i the degree of armenian collaboration with the ottoman s enemy increased drastically ottoman supply lines were cut by guerilla attacks armenian revolutionaries armed armenian civil populations who in turn massacred the muslim population of the province of van in anticipation of expected arrival of the invading russian armies serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
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while armenians destroyed all the villages from trabzon to erzurum in article apr ns cc lehigh edu pv ns cc lehigh edu peter vorobieff writes disclaimer if there is anybody on usenet dumb enough to interpret this posting as a serious and meaningful one i want to assure this entity that it was but a joke still yelling at the telephone and the lawn mower people will think you re just some looney howling in the wires now any comment source documents volume i document no archive no cabin no drawer no file no section no contents no to lt colonel seyfi general headquarters second section istanbul dr stephan eshnanie neues wiener tagblatt vienna pester lloyd local anzliger berlin algemeen handelsblat amsterdam vakit istanbul i have been closely following for two weeks the withdrawal of russians and armenians from turkish territories through armenia although two months have elapsed since the clearing of the territories of armenian gangs i have been observing the evidence of the cruelties of the armenians at almost every step all the villages from trabzon to erzincan and from erzincan to erzurum are destroyed corpses of turks brutally and cruelly slain are everywhere according to accounts by those who were able to save their lives by escaping to mountains the first horrible and fearful events begun when the russian forces evacuated the places which were then taken over by armenian gangs the russians usually treated the people well but the people feared the intervention of the armenians once these places had been taken over by the armenians however the massacres begun they clearly announced their intention of clearing what they called the armenian and kurdish land from the turks and thus solve the nationality problem today i had the opportunity to meet austrian and german soldiers who had escaped from russian prison camps and come from kars and alexander paul gumru leninakan russian officers tried to save the turks and there were clashes between russian officers and armenian gangs i am now in erzurum and what i see is terrible almost the whole city is destroyed the smell of the corpses still fills the air although there are speculations that armenian gangs murdered austrian and german prisoners as well i could not get the supporting evidence in this regard but there is proof of murdering of turkish prisoners of war dr stephan eshnanie serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
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re life and fall of wlodowa do not forget in article apr oneb almanac bc ca kmcvay oneb almanac bc ca ken mcvay writes remember and do not forget sisha fuchs never i don t know whether anybody formulated and proposed such an index or criteria to determine the magnitude of a genocide as mentioned and advised by toynbee if one ever does you will easily see the magnitude of the crime of genocide committed by the armenians by massacring an alien population under their rule which constituted about of their total population and they did it only within a time period of a little over two years in which they enjoyed having full control over this population now i would like to ask you is there any other genocide in the history of mankind similar to this one and again i would like to ask you whether the silent and unmourned martyrdom of these hundreds of thousands of turks of the republic of armenia who were exterminated as a final solution to turco tartar problems in armenia is similar or not to the martyrdom of six million jews in europe as a final solution to jewish problems serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
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re no land for peace no negotiatians hasan mcrcim mcgill edu writes ok i donot know why there are israeli voices against negotiations however i would guess that is because they refuse giving back a land for those who have the right for it sounds like wishful guessing as for the arabian and palestinean voices that are against the current negotiations and the so called peace process they are not against peace per se but rather for their well founded predictions that israel would not give an inch of the west bank and most probably the same for golan heights back to the arabs an months of negotiations in madrid and washington proved these predictions now many will jump on me saying why are you blaming israelis for no result negotiations i would say why would the arabs stall the negotiations what do they have to loose so called what do you mean how would you see the peace process so you say palestineans do not negociate because of well founded predictions how do you know that they are well founded if you do not test them at the table months did not prove anything but it s always the other side at fault right why i do not know why but if let s say the palestineans some of them want all israel and these are known not to be accepted terms by israelis or maybe they palestinenans are not yet ready for statehood or maybe there is too much politics within the palestinean leadership too many fractions aso i am not saying that one of these reasons is indeed the real one but any of these could make arabs stall the negotiations arabs feel that the current negotiations is only for legitimizing the current status quo and for opening the doors of the arab markets for israeli trade and oranges that is simply unacceptable and would be revoked i like california oranges and the feelings may get sharper at the table regards dorin
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re israelis murdered in march in article flax apr frej teknikum uu se flax frej teknikum uu se jonas flygare writes in article apr thunder mcrcim mcgill edu hasan mcrcim mcgill edu writes in article flax apr frej teknikum uu se flax frej teknikum uu se jonas flygare writes in article apr thunder mcrcim mcgill edu hasan mcrcim mcgill edu writes in article flax apr frej teknikum uu se flax frej teknikum uu se jonas flygare writes i get the impression hasan realized he goofed and is now trying to drop the thread let him it might save some miniscule portion of his sorry face not really since i am a logical person who likes furthering himself from any name calling i started trashing any article that contains such abuses without responding to and sometimes not even reading articles written by those who acquired such bad habits from bad company deleted stuff well ok let s see what master of wisdom mr jonas flygare wrote that can be wisdomely responded to are you calling names or giving me a title if the first read your paragraph above if not i accept the title in order to let you get into the um well debate again i didnot know that master of wisdom can be name clling too unless you consider yourself deserve less master of wisdom writes in mar frej teknikum uu se hasan flax hasan in case you didnot know palestineans were there for months and they are coming back when you agree to give palestineans their human rights afterall human rights arenot negotiable correct me if i m wrong but isn t the right to one s life also a human right or does it only apply to palestinians no it is everybody s right however when a killer kills then he is giving up willingly or unwillingly his life s right to the society the society represented by the goverment would exercise its duty by depriving the killer off his life s right so then it s all right for israel to kill the people who kill israelis the old eye for an eye thinking funny i thought modern legal systems were made to counter exactly that so what do you expect me to tell you to tell you master of wsidom if you insist on giving me names titles i did not ask for you could at least spell them correctly sigh that was only to confuse you ha ha ha hey when you are intentionally neglecting the most important fact that the whole israeli presence in the occupied territories is illegitimate and hence all their actions their courts their laws are illegitimate on the ground of occupied territories no i am not neglecting that i m merely asking you whether the existance of israeli citicens in the wb or in gaza invalidates those individuals right are you trying to retaliate and confuse me here to live a as you so eloquently put it human right we can get back to the question of which law should be used in the territories later also you have not adressed my question if the israelis also have human rights first my above statement doesnot say that the existence of israeli citizens in the wb revoke their right of life but it says the israeli occupation of the wb revoke the right of life for some most its citizens basically revokes the right of for its military men clearly occupation is an undeclared war during war attacks against military targets are fully legitimate secondly surely israeli have human rights but they ask their goverment to protect it by withdrawing from the occupied terretories not by further oppressing palestinean human rights what do you expect me to tell you master of wisdom when i did explain my point in the post that you responded to the point is that since israel is occupying then it is automatically depriving itself from some of its rights to the occupied palestineans which is exactly similar the automatic deprivation of a killer from his right of life to the society if a state can deprive all it s citizens of human rights by its actions then tell me why any human living today should have any rights at all because not all states are like israel as oppressive as ignorant or as tyrant what kind of rights and how much would be deprived is another issue the answer is to be found in a certain system such as international law us law israeli law deleted jonas was throwing up not for real so you can stick to the screen it seems that the us law represented by us state dept in this case is looking to the other way around when violence occurs in occupied territories anyway as for hamas then obviously they turned to the islamic system and which system do you propose we use to solve the me problem the question is not which system would solve the me problem why because any system can solve it the laws of minister sharon says kick palestineans out of here all palestine i asked for which system should be used that will preserve human rights for all people involved i assumed that was obvious but i won t repeat that mistake now that i have straightened that out i m eagerly awaiting your reply so you agree that that an israeli solution wouldnot preserve human rights i am understanding this from your first statement in this paragraph joseph weitz administrator responsible for jewish colonization said it best when writing in his diary in between ourselves it must be clear that there is no room for both peoples together in this country we shall not achieve our goal of being an independent people with the arabs in this small country the only solution is a palestine at least western palestine west of the jordan river without arabs and there is no other way than to transfer the arabs from here to the neighbouring countries to transfer all of them not one village not one tribe should be left only after this transfer will the country be able to absorb the millions of our own brethren there is no other way out davar september courtesy of marc afifi just a question if we are to disregard the rather obvious references to getting israel out of me one way or the other in both plo covenant and hamas charter that s the english translations if you have other information i d be interested to have you translate it why should we give any credence to a private paper even older i m not going to get into the question if he wrote the above but it s fairly obvious all parties in the conflict have their share of fanatics guess what those are not the people that will make any lasting peace in the region more deleted stuff exactly you are right i guess that the problem is that the israeli goverment is full with men like joseph weitz we and our either refers to zionists or jews i donot know which well i can give you an answer you master of wisdom i will not suggest the imperialist israeli system for solving the me problem i think that is fair enough no that is not an answer since i asked for a system that could solve the problem you said any could be used then you provided a contradiction above you wrote that you understood what i meant underlined by any system can be used to solve the conflict but not any system would resolve it justly guess where that takes your logic to never never land you are proving yourself as a first you understood what i meant but then you claim you didnot so to claim a contradiction in my logic too bad for you the master of wisdom the greatest problem of zionism is arab children rabbi shoham oh and by the way let me add that these cute quotes you put at the end are a real bummer when i try giving your posts any credit why do you feel ashamed by things and facts that you believe in if you were a zionists if you believe in zionist codes and acts well i feel sorry for you because the same rabbi shoham had said yes zionism is racism if you feel ashamed and bothered by the zionist codes then drop zionism if you are not zionist why are you bothered then you should join me in condemning these racist zionist codes and acts hasan jonas flygare
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armenian nazi collaboration during world war ii in article bc d b news service uci edu tclock orion oac uci edu tim clock writes is it possible to track down zuma and determine who what where seradr is done but did it change the fact that during the period of to the armenian government ordered incited assisted and participated in the genocide of million muslim people because of race religion and national origin by the way you still haven t corrected yourself during world war ii armenians were carried away with the german might and cringing and fawning over the nazis in that zeal the armenian publication in germany hairenik carried statements as follows sometimes it is difficult to eradicate these poisonous elements the jews when they have struck deep root like a chronic disease and when it becomes necessary for a people the nazis to eradicate them in an uncommon method these attempts are regarded as revolutionary during the surgical operation the flow of blood is a natural thing now for a brief view of the armenian genocide of the muslims and jews extracts from a letter dated december published in the san francisco chronicle as an answer to a letter that had been published in the same journal under the signature of one b amarian we have first hand information and evidence of armenian atrocities against our people jews members of our family witnessed the murder of members of our family near erzurum turkey by armenian neighbors bent on destroying anything and anybody remotely jewish and or muslim armenians should look to their own history and see the havoc they and their ancestors perpetrated upon their neighbors armenians were in league with hitler in the last war on his premise to grant them self government if in return the armenians would help exterminate jews armenians were also hearty proponents of the anti semitic acts in league with the russian communists mr amarian i don t need your bias signed elihu ben levi vacaville california james g mandalian dro drastamat kanayan in the armenian review a quarterly by the hairenik association inc summer june vol x no serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
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re while armenians are massacring innocent azeri women and children in article iacovou gurney iacovou gurney cs umn edu neophytos iacovou writes historically even the most uncivilized of peoples have exhibited signs of compassion by allowing humanitarian aid to reach civilian populations even the nazis did this much is the world community really so powerless where are all those human rights advocates where are all the decent people are we going to let this human tragedy go on and do nothing about it the number of azeris murdered by the terrorist armenian army and its savage gangs is increasing news reporters make their living by providing stories and there is so way in hell that they are going to confuse the public with what is happening in armenia a country that few know of and risk detracting people s interest from what is happening in serbia then you must be living in an alternate universe where were they an appeal to mankind during the last three years azerbaijan and its multinational population are vainly fighting for justice within the limits of the soviet union all humanitarian constitutional human rights guaranteed by the un charter universal declaration of human rights helsinki agreements human problems international forums documents signed by the soviet union all of them are violated the ussr s president government bodies do not defend azerbaijan though they are all empowered to take necessary measures to guarantee life and peace the strong army of armenian terrorists with moscow s tacit consent wages an undeclared war of annihilation against azerbaijan as a result a part of azerbaijan has been occupied and annexed hundreds of people killed thousands wounded some azerbaijanis have been brutally and inhumanly deported from the armenian ssr their historical homeland together with them russians and kurds have also been driven out a part of them now settled in azerbaijan some turkish meskhetians lezghins and representatives of other caucasian nationalities who escaped from the central asia where the president and government bodies did not guarantee them the life and peace also suffered from these deportations one of the scandalous vandalisms directed not only against azerbaijan science but the world civilization as well is the armenian extremists destruction of the karabakh scientific experimental base of the institute of genetics and selection of the academy of sciences of the azerbaijan ssr we beg you for humanitarian help and political assistance for the honour and dignity of million azerbaijanis are violated its territory culture and history are trampled its people are shot there is persistent negative image of azerbaijanians abroad and this defamation is spread over the whole world by soviet mass media armenian lobby in the ussr and the united states one of the myths is that all events allegedly involves and generated by interethnic collisions and religious intolerance while the truth is that all these shootings and recent events stem from the territorial claims of armenia on azerbaijan it is a well documented fact that before the conflict there were no frictions between armenians and azerbaijanis on the issue of karabakh hundreds and thousands armenians placidly and calmly lived and worked in azerbaijan land had their representatives in all government bodies of the azerbaijan ssr we are for a united indivisible sovereign azerbaijan we are for a common caucasian home proclaimed in by one of the founding fathers of the azerbaijan democratic republic muhammed emin rasulzade but all these goals and expectations are trampled upon the soviet leadership in favour of the armenian expansionists encouraged by moscow and intended to create a new year reich the great armenia by annexing the neighboring lands the world public opinion shed tears to save the whales suffers for penguins dying out in the antarctic continent but what about the lives of seven million human beings if these people are muslims does it mean that they are less valuable can people be discriminated by their colour of skin or religion by their residence or other attributes all people are brothers and we appeal to our brothers for help and understanding this is not the first appeal of azerbaijan to the world public opinion our previous appeals were unheard however we still carry the hope that the truth beyond the russian and armenian propaganda will one day reveal the extent of our suffering and stimulate at least as much help and compassion for azerbaijan as tendered to whales and penguins the committee for people s help to karabakh of the academy of sciences of the azerbaijan ssr everyone knows this even the turks know this you know this give us a time period when the world is currently boring and what is happening in armenia would make front page headlines think i m lying take a look at what happened in somalia when did the press report it to the world but perhaps turkiye should intervene in the affairs of the caucasus in the name of peace and democracy the armenians are christians the azerbaijanis are moslems and islam is a religion especially unloved by the democrat westernizers besides at the root of this conflict lie the territorial claims on azerbaijan a consequence of which were the blood and suffering of innocent azeri people hundreds of thousands of refugees and gross violations of human rights recently armenians attacked the azeri town of khojaly and massacred thousands of azeris the paris based association for democracy and human rights in azerbaijan puts the number of khojali victims at some of the dead were scalped and mutilated this whole thing has now gone entirely too far want to know what will bring the story in armenia to the front page if the russians move into the area with a shit load of tanks then your human rights advocates will show up defending the armenians of course we can also be sure that the russians won t show up with any tanks not with the problems they are having at home they already did the scenario and genocide staged by the armenians years ago in the ottoman empire is being reenacted again this time in azerbaijan there are remarkable similarities between the plots the perpetrators and the underdogs report taken from the new york times tuesday march massacre by armenians being reported agdam azerbaijan march reuters fresh evidence emerged today of a massacre of civilians by armenian militants in nagorno karabakh a predominantly armenian enclave of azerbaijan the republic of armenia reiterated denials that its militants had killed people in the azerbaijani populated town of khojaly last week and massacred men women and children fleeing the carnage across snow covered mountain passes but dozen of bodies scattered over the area lent credence to azerbaijani reports of a massacre scalping reported azerbaijani officials and journalists who flew briefly to the region by helicopter brought back three dead children with the back of their heads blown off they said shooting by armenians has prevented them from retrieving more bodies women and children have been scalped said assad faradshev an aide to nagorno karabakh s azerbaijani governor when we began to pick up bodies they began firing at us the azerbaijani militia chief in agdam rashid mamedov said the bodies are lying there like flocks of sheep even the fascists did nothing like this truckloads of bodies near agdam on the outskirts of nagorno karabakh a reuters photographer frederique lengaigne said she had seen two trucks filled with azerbaijani bodies in the first one i counted and it looked as though there were as many in the second she said some had their head cut off and many had been burned they were all men and a few had been wearing khaki uniforms serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
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re islam borders vs israeli borders in article apr wam umd edu spinoza next wor wam umd edu yon bonnie laird of cairn robbing writes in article c wjj j r newsflash concordia ca ilyess ece concordia ca ilyess bdira writes why do jews who don t even believe in god as is the case with many of the founders of secular zionism have a right in palestine more than the inhabitants of palestine just because god gave you the land g d has nothing to do with it some of the land was in fact given to the jews by the united nations quite a bit of it was purchased from arab absentee landlords present claims are based on prior ownership purchase from aforementioned absentee landlords award by the united nations in the partition of the palestine mandate territory and as the result of defensive wars fought against the egyptians syrians jordanians et al why do most of them speak of the west bank as theirs while most of the inhabitants are not jews and do not want to be part of israel first i should point out that many jews do not in fact agree with the idea that the west bank is theirs since however i agree with those who claim the west bank i think i can answer your question thusly the west bank was what is called the spoils of war hussein ordered the arab legion this is very funny anyway suppose that in fact israel didnot attack jordan till jordan attacked israel now how do you explain the attack on syria in syria didnot enter the war with israel till the th day by the way it is funny that you are implying that the reason behind by israel was only to capture sinai egypt to attack israel which was a poor move seeing as how the israelis promptly kicked his butt the territory is therefore forefeit retaining possession of all of the west bank is not desirable but it beats national suicide for the israelis put another way one could ask why it is that so many palestinians seem to think that tel aviv belongs to them and the future state of palestine as long as this state of affairs continues it seems that to give the palestinians a place from which they can launch attacks on jews is a real poor idea giving up the entire west bank would be idiotic froma security standpoint in addition there is the small matter of jerusalem which is considered to be part of the west bank the chances of the israelis giving up jerusalem are nil even leftists who think yasser is a really cool dude like yossi sarid aren t going to propose giving up jerusalem if he did he d get run out of town on a rail chag sameach jeff
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re f ck off tsiel logic of mr emmanuel huna in article bimacs bitnet huna bimacs bitnet emmanuel huna writes mr steel from what i ve read tsiel is not a racist but you are an anti semitic and stop shouting you fanatic mr emmanuel huna give logic a break will you gosh what kind of intelligence do you have if any tesiel says be a man not an arab for once i say fuck of tsiel for saying the above i get tagged as a racist and he gets praised well mr logicless tsiel has apologized for his racist remark i praise him for that courage but i tell take a hike to whoever calls me a racist without a proof because i am not you have proven to us that your brain has been malfunctioning and you are just a moron that s loose on the net about being fanatic i am proud to be a fanatic about my rights and freedom you idiot
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re islam borders vs israeli borders tclock orion oac uci edu tim clock writes i too strongly object to those that justify israeli rule of those who do not want that the occupied territories are not israel s to control to keep or to dominate they certainly are until the arabs make peace only the most leftist arabist lunatics call upon israel to withdraw now most moderates realize that an israeli withdrawl will be based on the camp david madrid formulas which make full peace a prerequisite to territorial concessions tim ed
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re islam borders vs israeli borders hasan mcrcim mcgill edu writes in article apr wam umd edu spinoza next wor wam umd edu yon bonnie laird of cairn robbing writes in article c wjj j r newsflash concordia ca ilyess ece concordia ca ilyess bdira writes why do jews who don t even believe in god as is the case with many of the founders of secular zionism have a right in palestine more than the inhabitants of palestine just because god gave you the land g d has nothing to do with it some of the land was in fact given to the jews by the united nations quite a bit of it was purchased from arab absentee landlords present claims are based on prior ownership purchase from aforementioned absentee landlords award by the united nations in the partition of the palestine mandate territory and as the result of defensive wars fought against the egyptians syrians jordanians et al why do most of them speak of the west bank as theirs while most of the inhabitants are not jews and do not want to be part of israel first i should point out that many jews do not in fact agree with the idea that the west bank is theirs since however i agree with those who claim the west bank i think i can answer your question thusly the west bank was what is called the spoils of war hussein ordered the arab legion this is very funny anyway suppose that in fact israel didnot attack jordan till jordan attacked israel now how do you explain the attack on syria in syria didnot enter the war with israel till the th day syria had been bombing israeli settlements from the golan and sending terrorist squads into israel for years do you need me to provide specifics i can why don t you give it up hasan i m really starting to get tired of your empty lies you can defend your position and ideology with documented facts and arguments rather than the crap you regularly post take an example from someone like brendan mckay with whom i don t agree but who uses logic and documentation to argue his position why must you insist on constantly spouting baseless lies you may piss some people off but that s about it you won t prove anything or add anything worthy to a discussion your arguments just prove what a poor debater you are and how weak your case really is all my love ed
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re israelis murdered in march in article apr thunder mcrcim mcgill edu hasan mcrcim mcgill edu writes stuff deleted i wrote are you calling names or giving me a title if the first read your paragraph above if not i accept the title in order to let you get into the um well debate again hasan replies i didnot know that master of wisdom can be name clling too unless you consider yourself deserve less unless you are referring to someone else you have in fact given me a name i did not ask for hence the term name calling hasan writes so what do you expect me to tell you to tell you master of wsidom i replied if you insist on giving me names titles i did not ask for you could at least spell them correctly sigh hasan gloats that was only to confuse you ha ha ha hey hell bent on retarding into childhood no when you are intentionally neglecting the most important fact that the whole israeli presence in the occupied territories is illegitimate and hence all their actions their courts their laws are illegitimate on the ground of occupied territories no i am not neglecting that i m merely asking you whether the existance of israeli citicens in the wb or in gaza invalidates those individuals right are you trying to retaliate and confuse me here no i really do try to spell correctly and i apologize if i did confuse you i will try not to repeat that to live a as you so eloquently put it human right we can get back to the question of which law should be used in the territories later also you have not adressed my question if the israelis also have human rights first my above statement doesnot say that the existence of israeli citizens in the wb revoke their right of life but it says the israeli occupation of the wb revoke the right of life for some most its citizens basically revokes the right of for its military men clearly occupation is an undeclared war during war attacks against military targets are fully legitimate ok let me re phrase the question i have repeatedly asked you if the israelis have less human rights than the palestinians and if so why from your posting where you did not directly adress my question i inferred that you thought so together with the above statement i then assumed that the reason was the actions of the state of israel re your statement of occupation i d like you to define the term so i don t have to repeat this drag the answer out of hasan procedure more than neccesary secondly surely israeli have human rights but they ask their goverment to protect it by withdrawing from the occupied terretories not by further oppressing palestinean human rights i m sorry but the above sentence does not make sense please rephrase it if a state can deprive all it s citizens of human rights by its actions then tell me why any human living today should have any rights at all because not all states are like israel as oppressive as ignorant or as tyrant oh ok so how about the human rights of the syrians iraqis and others does the name of hama sound familiar or how about the kurds in iraq and turkey how about the same in sweden ok maybe a bit farfetched the russians in the baltic states or the moslem in the old ussr and yugoslavia do the serbs have any human rights remainaing according to you and which system do you propose we use to solve the me problem the question is not which system would solve the me problem why because any system can solve it the laws of minister sharon says kick palestineans out of here all palestine i asked for which system should be used that will preserve human rights for all people involved i assumed that was obvious but i won t repeat that mistake now that i have straightened that out i m eagerly awaiting your reply so you agree that that an israeli solution wouldnot preserve human rights i am understanding this from your first statement in this paragraph no i m agreeing that to just kick all the palestinians out of israel proper would probably lead to disaster for both parties if that s what you refer to as the israeli solution then so be it joseph weitz administrator responsible for jewish colonization said it best when writing in his diary in between ourselves it must be clear that there is no room for both peoples together in this country we shall not achieve our goal of being an independent people with the arabs in this small country the only solution is a palestine at least western palestine west of the jordan river without arabs and there is no other way than to transfer the arabs from here to the neighbouring countries to transfer all of them not one village not one tribe should be left only after this transfer will the country be able to absorb the millions of our own brethren there is no other way out davar september courtesy of marc afifi just a question if we are to disregard the rather obvious references to getting israel out of me one way or the other in both plo covenant and hamas charter that s the english translations if you have other information i d be interested to have you translate it why should we give any credence to a private paper even older i m not going to get into the question if he wrote the above but it s fairly obvious all parties in the conflict have their share of fanatics guess what those are not the people that will make any lasting peace in the region more deleted stuff exactly you are right i guess that the problem is that the israeli goverment is full with men like joseph weitz oh have you met with them personally to read their diaries fascinating what do you do for a living we and our either refers to zionists or jews i donot know which well i can give you an answer you master of wisdom i will not suggest the imperialist israeli system for solving the me problem i think that is fair enough no that is not an answer since i asked for a system that could solve the problem you said any could be used then you provided a contradiction above you wrote that you understood what i meant underlined by any system can be used to solve the conflict but not any system would resolve it justly an unjust solution would be a non solution per definition no you said the following for all a it holds that a have property b there exists an a such that property b does not hold thus either or both statements must be false guess where that takes your logic to never never land you are proving yourself as a first you understood what i meant but then you claim you didnot so to claim a contradiction in my logic too bad for you the master of wisdom i was merely pointing out a not so small flaw in your reasoning since you claim to be logical i felt it best to point this out before you started using your statements to prove a point or so am i then to assume you are not logical the greatest problem of zionism is arab children rabbi shoham oh and by the way let me add that these cute quotes you put at the end are a real bummer when i try giving your posts any credit why do you feel ashamed by things and facts that you believe in if you were a zionists if you believe in zionist codes and acts well i feel sorry for you because the same rabbi shoham had said yes zionism is racism if you feel ashamed and bothered by the zionist codes then drop zionism if you are not zionist why are you bothered then you should join me in condemning these racist zionist codes and acts any quote can be misused especially when used to stereotype all individuals by a statement of an individual if you use the same methods that you credit zionists with then where does that place you oh by the way i d advice you not to assume anything about my loyalties i will and am condemning acts i find vile and inhuman but i ll try as long as i can not to assume those acts are by a whole people by zionist above do you mean the state of israel the government of israel the leaders of israel political and or religious or the jews in general if you feel the need to condemn condemn those responsible instead how would you feel if we started condemning you personally based on the bombings in egypt jonas flygare wherever you go there you are v ktargatan f uppsala sweden
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the orders for the turkish extermination of the armenians the orders for the turkish extermination of the armenians to the children of genocide send them away into the desert this is part of a continuing series of articles containing official turkish wartime ww governmental telegrams in translation entailing the orders for the extermination of the armenian people in turkey generally these telegrams were issued by the turkish minister of the interior talaat pasha for example we have the following set regarding children to the government of aleppo november we are informed that the little ones belonging to the armenians from sivas mamuret ul aziz diarbekir and erzeroum hundreds of km distance from aleppo are adopted by certain moslem families and received as servants when they are left alone through the death of their parents we inform you that you are to collect all such children in your province and send them to the places of deportation and also to give the necessary orders regarding this to the people minister of the interior talaat to the government of aleppo september there is no need for an orphanage it is not the time to give way to sentiment and feed the orphans prolonging their lives send them away to the desert and inform us minister of the interior talaat to the general committee for settling and deportees november there were more than four hundred children in the orphanage they will be added to the caravans and sent to their places of exile abdullahad nuri to the government of aleppo january we hear that certain orphanages which have been opened receive also the children of the armenians whether this is done through the ignorance of our real purpose or through contempt of it the government will regard the feeding of such children or any attempt to prolong their lives as an act entirely opposed to it purpose since it considers the survival of these children as detrimental i recommend that such children shall not be received into the orphanages and no attempts are to be made to establish special orphanages for them minister of the interior talaat to the government of aleppo collect and keep only those orphans who cannot remember the tortures to which their parents have been subjected send the rest away with the caravans minister of the interior talaat from the ministry of the interior to the government of aleppo at a time when there are thousands of moslem refugees and the widows of shekid fallen soldiers are in need of food and protection it is not expedient to incur extra expenses by feeding the children left by armenians who will serve no purpose except that of giving trouble in the future it is necessary that these children should be turned out of your vilayet and sent with the caravans to the place of deportation those that have been kept till now are also to be sent away in compliance with our previous orders to sivas minister of the interior talaat in halide edip a pioneer turkish nationalist wrote in her memoirs about a conversation with talaat pasha verifying and rationalizing this ultra national fascist anti armenian mentality the following i have the conviction that as long as a nation does the best for its own interest and succeeds the world admires it and thinks it moral i am ready to die for what i have done and i know i shall die for it these telegrams were entered as unquestioned evidence during the trial of talaat pasha s assassin soghomon tehlerian the turkish government never questioned these death march orders until during a time when the world was again reminded of the genocide of the armenians for reasons known to those who study the psychology of genocide denial the turkish government and their supporters in crime deny that such orders were ever issued and further claim that these telegrams were forgeries based on a study by s orel and s yuca of the turkish historical society if one were to examine the sample authentic text provided in the turkish historical society study and use their same forgery test on that sample it too would be a forgery in fact if any of the tests delineated by the turkish historical society are performed an any piece of ottoman turkish or persian arabic script one finds that anything handwritten in such language is a forgery today the body of talaat pasha lies in a tomb on liberty hill istanbul turkey just next to the yildiz university campus the body of this genocide architect was returned to turkey from germany during ww when turkey was in a heightened state of proto fascism recently this monument has served as a focal point for anti armenianism in turkey this monument represents the epitome of the turkish government s pathological denial of a clear historical event and is an insult to a people whose only crime was to be born armenian references the memoirs of naim bey aram andonian pages ibid page ibid page ibid page ibid page ibid page memoirs of halide edip halide edip the century press new york and london page david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org how do we explain turkish troops on s d p a center for regional studies the armenian border when we can t p o box even explain cambridge ma turkish mp march
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treatment of armenians in azerbaijan deposition of vitaly nikolayevich danielian born attended th grade middle school no resident at building apartment microdistrict no sumgait azerbaijan really people in town didn t know what was happening on february i came home from school at o clock being excused to leave before the last period in order to go to baku when we left everything in town was fine life was the same as usual a few groups of people were discussing things soccer and other things then we got on the sumgait bus bound for baku for my first cousin s birthday my father my mother and i we spent the day in baku and on the th somewhere around p m we got on the bus for home figuring that i d have enough time to do my homework for the next day when we were entering town near the story high rises our bus was stopped by a very large crowd the crowd demanded that the armenians get off the bus the driver says that there are no armenians on board then everyone on the bus begins to shout that there are no armenians on board the group comes up to the doors of the bus and has people get out one by one not checking passports just going by the way people look we get off the bus but are not taken for armenians we set out in the direction of home at first we were going to go into an old building where we knew there d be a place to hide but the whole road was packed with groups of people all the way from block to the th microdistrict these groups were emptying people s pockets and checking passports people who didn t have passports with them were beaten as well then we decided to go home instead near the story high rises i saw burning cars and a great many people standing around the driveways yelling death to the armenians was written on the cars when we came into the courtyard we live in an l shaped building it was still quiet we went on upstairs but didn t turn on any lights we tried to call baku to warn our relatives who were due to arrive on wednesday not to come then there was a knock at the door it was our neighbors who advised us to come down to stay at their place we went down to their place and they led us to the basement they live on the first floor and have a basement which you enter across the balcony we sat in the basement while an armenian woman was beaten she ran away naked our neighbors daughter said that that s right that s what the armenians deserve because in stepanakert allegedly people were being killed girls from agdam had been raped we didn t stay very long in the basement we tried to support one another as best we could looking out the small window with the iron grating papa watched and said things now and then he said that there was a fire near building probably a car on fire then one of the groups approached our driveway and demanded that they be shown the apartments where armenians lived the neighbors said that there weren t any armenians here and the group set out for the other wing of the building they appeared from the side of the building where i later found out a woman had been murdered the woman who ran away naked died yuri avakian was killed too when the crowd left the neighbors said that it was all over and we could go home we went back up to our place and again didn t turn on the light we started to gather up our things in order to leave sumgait for a while we tried to call a relative who lived in sumgait but there was no answer we decided she had already left we sat at home the phone rang and the caller asked to speak with my father i called him to the phone it was jeykhun mamedov from my father s work brigade he said he was disgusted by what was happening in our town he asked for our address and promised to get a car and help us get out of the city to be quite honest papa didn t want to give him our address but my mother got on the phone and told him some minutes after the call a crowd ran into our entryway bursting into the building they broke down the door and came into the apartment they came straight to our apartment they knew exactly where the armenians were they came into our place we tried to resist but there was nothing we could do one of them took my parents passports and began to read them he read the surname danielian turned the page read armenian and that alone was enough to doom us he said that we should be moved quickly out into the courtyard where they would have done with us another standing next to him pushed some of the keys on the piano and said your death has tolled they had knives and steel truncheons i had a knife in my hand unfortunately i didn t use it i just knew that if i didn t give up the knife things would be much worse they struck my parents and said that i should put the knife on the piano then one of them commanded that we be taken outside one person was giving orders when we were taken outdoors i went in the middle and my mother was behind me someone started to push her so she d walk faster i let her go ahead of me and fell in behind her when he tried to push me i hit him and at that moment they began beating my parents i realized that resistance was completely useless we are taken out into the courtyard and the neighbors are standing on their balconies to see what will happen next the crowd surrounds us at first they strike me and i m knocked out when i come to they beat me again i lose consciousness often i don t see or hear my parents since i was the first one hit and was out cold when i come to i try to pick them up they are lying next to me the crowd is gone the only people around are watching from their balconies that s it i try to pick them up but can t my left arm is broken i start toward the drive wanting to tell the neighbors to call an ambulance the bodies of my parents are still warm we were attacked at around o clock i regain consciousness at about and try to make it up the stairs home when i knock at the neighbors door they push me back and tell me to go away i go up to the third floor our neighbor puts a damp cloth on my head and says she will call an ambulance she sends her son off for one and takes me to our apartment i often look out the window to see if the ambulance has arrived but i can t see very far as a result of the blows and it seems that my parents have already been taken away then i calm down and try to convince myself that they have been taken away and everything will be ok but they were still there later at in the morning as i found out the ambulance picked them up but they were already dead if they received attention on time it is possible they would still be alive later around o clock on the th policemen in civilian clothing come to our house with some assistants they call an ambulance and minutes later it arrives and i am taken to the sumgait emergency hospital there they stitch the wounds on my head and rebind my arm at o clock i and the other armenians who are in the hospital are sent by ambulance to baku in my ward at the sumgait hospital there were five people all of them armenians the hospital was nearly overflowing with armenians the only azerbaijanis there were those whose car had flipped over before the events before the th then i was in the semashko hospital in baku i was there days when i was released on the th day i found out that my parents were dead at first they told me that they were in moscow being treated but later i found out that they were dead my father s older brother told me my father s name was nikolai artemovich danielian he was born in my mother born in was seda osipovna danielian papa worked at pmk the leader of the roofing brigade mamma was a compressor operator they were also beaten on the head the coroner s report stated that their heads were smashed open and bled profusely at the confrontation i met jeykhun mamedov who had called as it turned out later he had been the one who tipped the crowd off he had called specifically to find out if we were at home and to find out the exact address and dispatch the group he knew the phone number but didn t know the address before the events i had never seen him but had often spoken with him on the phone when he would ask to speak with my father i knew him by name he denies that i was the one who answered the phone saying that my father answered it he denies that he called from a public phone saying that he called from home which also isn t true i heard noise and the sounds of automobiles as i later found out earlier he had been convicted but had never served any time he had received a suspended sentence he was about years old i don t know if he has since confessed or not i am sure that he was the one who tipped the crowd off one hundred percent sure my parents were from karabagh father was from the village of badar and was two years old when his family moved to baku where his elder brothers were to go to school he was a student at the naval school but never graduated he went off to work on the virgin lands one of the gigantic agricultural projects instituted under khrushchev when he returned he lived in baku and later moved to sumgait helping with the town s construction mamma was from the village of dagdagan also from karabagh she worked in sumgait first in a bookstore and later on a construction site my sister is older than i she lives with her husband here in karabagh i always loved my parents that was why i went on to th grade because it was their dream that i would continue my studies i finished th grade and wanted to enter the baku nautical school and after that the military school but later i changed my mind or rather my parents got me to recon sider saying that it would be better to finish the th grade and then join the naval school i was planning to be in the navy almost my whole life long since childhood i had dreamed of being a sailor my father wanted it more than anything he always recollected his youth telling of the school and he always said that he had made a big mistake in leaving it now i live in karabagh and never plan to leave here i will stay at the home of my grandfather of my ancestors till the end of my days while in the hospital in baku i learned the fates of many others who had suffered as well like ishkhan trdatov he managed to hold them off at their residence in microdistrict building apartment for a long time lost his father gabriel and by some miracle managed to survive i also learned of uncle sasha from building whose daughter was raped besides them valery i forgot his last name was in the hospital too about a year younger than i he went to school no he was riding with his parents in the car people were throwing rocks at them he was hit and his parents brought him to the hospital and he was in our ward we even came to be friends before that we had just seen each other around town but in the hospital we got to know one another better i learned of the fates of others those who had died or who were befallen by misfortune today suren harutunian the first secretary of the communist party of armenia was shown on television to be honest i am glad that armenia agreed to recognize nagorno karabagh as part of the armenian soviet socialist republic i was repelled no revolted to hear the baku announcer who read the decision of the azerbaijani supreme soviet presidium against karabagh becoming part of armenia after the events in sumgait and those in baku the best solution is to give karabagh to armenia return it to armenia since the people want to live peacefully with the azerbaijanis but everything has to be right before they can do that i arrived in karabagh on april i felt very bad i had constant headaches after a while my strength returned my older sister suzanna took me in i think that justice should prevail the people are demanding their due you can t take away what is their due my parents and i often spoke of nagorno karabagh often visited here spent almost all of my vacations here we had even decided that if karabagh would be made part of armenia we would move here for sure we always said that the armenian people had suffered much and that what had been done in removing nagorno karabagh from armenia was wrong sooner or later mistakes should be corrected and in order to correct a mistake it must not be repeated and the fate of all nagorno karabagh lies in the hands of our government june stepanakert david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org how do we explain turkish troops on s d p a center for regional studies the armenian border when we can t p o box even explain cambridge ma turkish mp march
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re islam borders vs israeli borders in article c wjj j r newsflash concordia ca ilyess ece concordia ca ilyess bdira writes in article bimacs bitnet ehrlich bimacs bitnet gideon ehrlich writes what are the borders the islamic world dreams about the islamic world dreams of being the whole planet but not by kicking the current inhabitant out we rather deam of the day everybody converts if jews had the same dream i would not feel threatened a bit contrary to what the protocols of zion crowd might suggest judaism does not have any such goals islamic readers i am waiting to your honest answer i want also a honest answer from zionists for the following questions why do jews who don t even believe in god as is the case with many of the founders of secular zionism have a right in palestine more than the inhabitants of palestine just because god gave you the land the question you ask is complicated and deserves an honest answer i am going to provide one from my own current perspective not a historical one currently as a non observant jew israeli american my own feeling is that jews from the diaspora do not have a greater right in palestine or israel than the palestinians or israelis both arab and jew do with regard to jewish israelis they should have the same rights in israel as do all other israelis why do most of them speak of the west bank as theirs while most of the inhabitants are not jews and do not want to be part of israel who are them if by them you mean the non religious jews i think you should be aware by now that the majority of the settlers and their supporters are religious the other part of the problem is to my knowledge not that the palestinians don t want to be a part of israel as much as they would accept for the most part being full citizens of israel with all the priviliges and responsibilities accorded israeli citizens what they object to is the current limbo in which they find themselves shai guday stealth bombers os software engineer thinking machines corp the winged ninjas of the skies cambridge ma
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re israelis murdered in march sorry guys for this long article but in fact it is mostly quotings in article flax apr frej teknikum uu se flax frej teknikum uu se jonas flygare writes when you are intentionally neglecting the most important fact that the whole israeli presence in the occupied territories is illegitimate and hence all their actions their courts their laws are illegitimate on the ground of occupied territories no i am not neglecting that i m merely asking you whether the existance of israeli citicens in the wb or in gaza invalidates those individuals right to live a as you so eloquently put it human right we can get back to the question of which law should be used in the territories later also you have not adressed my question if the israelis also have human rights first my above statement doesnot say that the existence of israeli citizens in the wb revoke their right of life but it says the israeli occupation of the wb revoke the right of life for some most its citizens basically revokes the right of for its military men clearly occupation is an undeclared war during war attacks against military targets are fully legitimate ok let me re phrase the question i have repeatedly asked you if the israelis have less human rights than the palestinians well if you just waited for more lines you would have read my statement secondly surely israeli have human rights but and if so why because they belong to the human race or do you disagree on that too from your posting where you did not directly adress my question i inferred that you thought so together with the above statement i then assumed that the reason was the actions of the state of israel re your statement of occupation i d like you to define the term so i don t have to repeat this drag the answer out of hasan procedure more than neccesary secondly surely israeli have human rights but they ask their goverment to protect it by withdrawing from the occupied terretories not by further oppressing palestinean human rights i m sorry but the above sentence does not make sense please rephrase it i donot know about you but it makes full sense to me israelis are being killed because israel is occupying let israel withdraw and israeli blood will be saved it isnot the palestineans who undermined the right of life of israelis but it is israel which occupied and exposed the life of its citizens to the the unconcluded war of more generally the violence in the occupied terretories is part of the intifada and i had previously posted a long article about this issue whom i finished by an open question suppose the intifada stops what is the motive for israel to withdraw donot tell hope for peace and this bullshit everybody in the world looks and hopes for peace so why isnot there any hope of peace is necessary but not sufficient motive if a state can deprive all it s citizens of human rights by its actions then tell me why any human living today should have any rights at all because not all states are like israel as oppressive as ignorant or as tyrant oh ok so how about the human rights of the syrians iraqis and others does the name of hama sound familiar or how about the kurds in iraq and turkey how about the same in sweden ok maybe a bit farfetched the russians in the baltic states or the moslem in the old ussr and yugoslavia do the serbs have any human rights remainaing according to you as for the arabian countries their problems are an arabian concern the arabian people can deal with it themselves if the west doesnot intervene as for serbs i donot think that those fucked up rapists excuse my language but it really hurts as much if i was in bosnia itself arenot humans those surely came from outer space or something no human can allow himself to see such attrocities than to participate in and which system do you propose we use to solve the me problem the question is not which system would solve the me problem why because any system can solve it the laws of minister sharon says kick palestineans out of here all palestine i asked for which system should be used that will preserve human rights for all people involved i assumed that was obvious but i won t repeat that mistake now that i have straightened that out i m eagerly awaiting your reply so you agree that that an israeli solution wouldnot preserve human rights i am understanding this from your first statement in this paragraph no i m agreeing that to just kick all the palestinians out of israel proper would probably lead to disaster for both parties if that s what you refer to as the israeli solution then so be it ok joseph weitz administrator responsible for jewish colonization said it best when writing in his diary in between ourselves it must be clear that there is no room for both peoples together in this country we shall not achieve our goal of being an independent people with the arabs in this small country the only solution is a palestine at least western palestine west of the jordan river without arabs and there is no other way than to transfer the arabs from here to the neighbouring countries to transfer all of them not one village not one tribe should be left only after this transfer will the country be able to absorb the millions of our own brethren there is no other way out davar september courtesy of marc afifi just a question if we are to disregard the rather obvious references to getting israel out of me one way or the other in both plo covenant and hamas charter that s the english translations if you have other information i d be interested to have you translate it why should we give any credence to a private paper even older i m not going to get into the question if he wrote the above but it s fairly obvious all parties in the conflict have their share of fanatics guess what those are not the people that will make any lasting peace in the region more deleted stuff exactly you are right i guess that the problem is that the israeli goverment is full with men like joseph weitz oh have you met with them personally to read their diaries fascinating what do you do for a living we and our either refers to zionists or jews i donot know which well i can give you an answer you master of wisdom i will not suggest the imperialist israeli system for solving the me problem i think that is fair enough no that is not an answer since i asked for a system that could solve the problem you said any could be used then you provided a contradiction above you wrote that you understood what i meant underlined by any system can be used to solve the conflict but not any system would resolve it justly an unjust solution would be a non solution per definition no my definition is the same as yours but one has to look into the world politics in politics a solution doesnot imply just solution you said the following for all a it holds that a have property b there exists an a such that property b does not hold thus either or both statements must be false guess where that takes your logic to never never land you are proving yourself as a first you understood what i meant but then you claim you didnot so to claim a contradiction in my logic too bad for you the master of wisdom i was merely pointing out a not so small flaw in your reasoning since you claim to be logical i felt it best to point this out before you started using your statements to prove a point or so am i then to assume you are not logical it seems that it was problem in the definition of solution i think a solution must be just because otherwise it would never be lasting however when politicians say a solution they donot mean a just solution but just a solution the greatest problem of zionism is arab children rabbi shoham oh and by the way let me add that these cute quotes you put at the end are a real bummer when i try giving your posts any credit why do you feel ashamed by things and facts that you believe in if you were a zionists if you believe in zionist codes and acts well i feel sorry for you because the same rabbi shoham had said yes zionism is racism if you feel ashamed and bothered by the zionist codes then drop zionism if you are not zionist why are you bothered then you should join me in condemning these racist zionist codes and acts any quote can be misused especially when used to stereotype all individuals by a statement of an individual if you use the same methods that you credit zionists with then where does that place you oh by the way i d advice you not to assume anything about my loyalties i will and am condemning acts i find vile and inhuman but i ll try as long as i can not to assume those acts are by a whole people by zionist above do you mean the state of israel the government of israel the leaders of israel political and or religious or the jews in general if you feel the need to condemn condemn those responsible instead how would you feel if we started condemning you personally based on the bombings in egypt jonas flygare hasan
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re how many mutlus can dance on the head of a pin in apr mnemosyne cs du edu jfurr nyx cs du edu joel furr writes i dunno warren just the other day i heard a rumor that serdar argic aka hasan mutlu and ahmed cosar and zumabot is not really a turk at all but in fact is an armenian who is attempting to make any discussion of the massacres in armenia of turks so noise laden as to make serious discussion impossible thereby cloaking the historical record with a tremendous cloud of confusion but what is hasan b multu s middle name i m not sure but i heard it was bibo i also seem to recall that argic is azari for bites the wax macedonian we don t have a mail address but how about finding a snail address then instead of quashing shergold rumors we could just redirect them ahmed cosar is a seven year old greek boy with an incurable case of crossposting his wish is to get into the usenet book of world records for having the highest noise to signal ratio warren nysernet org
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they were completely and systematically exterminated by armenians in article c xcu polaris async vt edu jfurr polaris async vt edu joel furr writes do it depew has shown himself to be unrepentant though embarrassed and still possessed of the same fucked up hubris laden self righteousness that the theory is that the hollering kills the spirit of the criminal nazi armenians of the asala sdpa arf terrorism and revisionism triangle now try dealing with the rest of what i wrote what is more the activities of the armenian government seem to have been efforts aimed at eradicating a race the turks or aimed at carrying out a one sided feud instead of being a struggle for liberation from the outset the efforts of the armenian revolutionaries within the ottoman borders took the form of terrorist and destructive actions aimed at mass murder cruelty and genocide so that no other interpretation of them is possible armenian activities started during the reign of abdulhamid ii as individual acts of terror and then developed into assassinations and surprise attacks the element of brute force in these activities increased steadily culminating in mass rebellions and widespread fighting during the first world war furthermore when the ottoman army withdrew from eastern anatolia after the sarikamis defeat armenian revolutionaries initiated a series of cruelties in this area although the russians occupied eastern anatolia as an enemy nevertheless they were constrained by the rules of war however when they returned to their country in after the revolution armenian revolutionaries were unchecked in this area for about a year until the ottoman forces returned to erzurum in during this period armenian revolutionaries executed massacres on the local people which is recorded in historical documents for example let us look at a report dated march which the commander of the third army submitted when he entered erzurum and erzincan they were completely and systematically destroyed and burned down by armenians even the trees were cut down and they are like a building entirely consumed by fire in every sense of the word as for the people who had been living in erzurum and erzincan those who were capable of fighting were taken away at the very beginning with the excuse of forced labor in road construction they were taken in the direction of sarikamis and annihilated when the russian army withdrew a part of the remaining people was destroyed in armenian massacres and cruelties they were thrown into wells they were locked in houses and burned down they were killed with bayonets and swords in places selected as butchering spots their bellies were torn open their lungs were pulled out and girls and women were hanged by their hair after being subjected to every conceivable abominable act a very small part of the people who were spared these abominations far worse than the cruelty of the inquisition resembled living dead and were suffering from temporary insanity because of the dire poverty they had lived in and because of the frightful experiences they had been subjected to including women and children such persons discovered so far do not exceed one thousand five hundred in erzincan and thirty thousand in erzurum all the fields in erzincan and erzurum are untilled everything that the people had has been taken away from them and we found them in a destitute situation at the present time the people are subsisting on some food they obtained impelled by starvation from russian storages left behind after their occupation of this area foreign observers who witnessed the events including russian officers who did not desert their lines submitted detailed reports proving the genocide to ottoman commanders who received them as prisoners of war what is most important is that they stated in their reports the massacres did not happen by chance but were planned at the end of the war the german author dr weiss his austrian colleague dr stein and his turkish colleague mr ahmet vefik visited trabzon kars erzurum and batum between april th and may th to record the cruelties their writings not only show the scope of armenian activities but also reveal their goal and true nature the ottoman state the ministry of war islam ahalinin ducar olduklari mezalim hakkinda vesaike mustenid malumat istanbul the french version documents relatifs aux atrocites commises par les armeniens sur la population musulmane istanbul in the latin script h k turkozu ed osmanli ve sovyet belgeleriyle ermeni mezalimi ankara in addition z basar ed ermenilerden gorduklerimiz ankara and edited by the same author ermeniler hakkinda makaleler derlemeler ankara askeri tarih belgeleri vol december document numbered askeri tarih belgeleri vol december document numbered from twerdo khlebof s report dated april quoted in ermeniler vol p a r altinay iki komite iki kital istanbul and kafkas yollarinda hatiralar ve tahassusler istanbul serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
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in nazi germany armenians were considered to be an aryan race and in article bac ff news service uci edu tclock orion oac uci edu tim clock writes there was no such letter in the chronicle on that date or at any other time is this a figment of your imagination here is another one source mitteilungsblatt berlin december nr and yet another historical fact a fact that for years has been deliberately forgotten concealed and wiped from memory the fact of armenian nazi collaboration a magazine called mitteilungsblatt der deutsch armenischen gesselschaft is the clearest and most definite proof of this collaboration the magazine was first published in berlin in during nazi rule of germany and continued publication until the end of even the name of the magazine which implies a declaration of armenian nazi cooperation is attention getting this magazine every issue of which proves the collaboration is historically important as documentary evidence it is a heap of writing that should be an admonition to world opinion and to all mankind in nazi germany armenians were considered to be an aryan race and certain political economic and social rights were thus granted to them they occupied positions in public service and were partners in nazi practices the whole world of course knows what awaited those who were not considered aryan and what befell them serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
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greek prime minister shows support for serbian criminals the above headline is much better than the original one read on in article yugoslav greeceu a pe clarinet com clarinews clarinet com dejan anastasijevic writes belgrade yugoslavia upi greek prime minister constantine mitsotakis visited the capital of the serbia montenegro federation tuesday in an apparent attempt to press serbian leaders into accepting the international plan to end the war in bosnia herzegovina so far so good i came here as an old friend of this country to help in solving the burning problem of bosnia herzegovina mitsotakis told reporters after talking for two hours with president slobodan milosevic of serbia old friend whatever i did not come here to discuss any particular plan i came to hear the serbian point of view he said adding that serbia is sincerely trying to bring peace to the region that is a great attitude for someone who wants to pressure the serbs to accept a peace plan that gives them most of the territory they got by force and terror milosevic said that serbia and greece had practically identical views on the bosnian war which started late in march when the this is a good thing to hear anybody wondering why serbia is not really under any boycott anybody remembers the gulf war did saddam kill people and rape women in an effort to pressure milosevic who is considered to be the main patron of serbian territorial conquest in bosnia the u n security council has threatened to impose new sanctions against serbia and montenegro and implement a no fly zone over bosnian skies still in the threatening stage maybe when there is no more bosnians the un will lift the arms embargo on them military intervention that is reserved for muslim countries now hear this after meeting milosevic mitsotakis had separate talks with radovan karadzic the leader of bosnian serbs i encouraged mr karadzic to proceed with his efforts to achieve a just peace in the region he said we are ready to play a positive role in the balkans said mitsotakis real positive i might add in favor of his old freinds of course karadzic said that he was honored to meet the greek premier greeks are not one sided and they do not tend to condemn only one you bet they are not side in this war said karadzic we will continue to negotiate on all levels he said before meeting with milosevic mitsotakis had talks with president dobrica cosic of the federal yugoslav union of serbia and montenegro and patriarch pavle the head priest of the serbian orthodox church anybody is still convinced that this is not a religious war a psychopath like karadzik is considered a peacelover of course he sent muslims to permanent peace with the blessings of patriarch pavle
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re was go hezbollah we really should try to be as understanding as we can for brad because it appears killing is all he knows jesse
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brad hernlem vs principle in his neverending effort to make sure that we do not forget what a moron he is brad hernlem has asked why israel rarely abides by un security council resolutions perhaps the list below might answer the question incident security council response hindu moslem clash in india over killed none gassing to death of over kurds by none iraqi air force saudi security forces slaughter none pilgrims in mecca killing by algerian army of demonstrators none intrafada arabs killing arabs over killed none civilians slaughtered by government none troops in hama syria killing of palestinians by jordanian troops none thousands expelled sept moslems killed in egypt none killed in egyption bread riots none border and rocket attacks against israel by none the plo in alone munich israeli athletes slaughtered none ma alot children killed in plo attack none israel coastal bus attack dead wounded none syria kills palestinians none lebanon over dead since none yemen killed in two weeks none sudan tens of thousands of black slaves none civil war toll million killed million refugees tienenman square massacre none rumania killed none pan am disaster carried out by the p l o none northern ireland none cambodia none soviet occupation of afghanistan none american riots at attica watts newark kent state none israel destroys iraqi reractor israel condemned israeli police protect israeli worshipers condemned against arab mob anti jewish rioters killed syrian soldiers slaughter christian soldiers none after they surrender it appears that brad hernlem and the united nations security council have something in common they both seem unfettered by the demands of acting on principle
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re no humanity in bosnia it is very encouraging that a number of people took so interest in my posting i recieved a couple of letters too some has debated the statement that events in bosnia are unprecedented in the history of the modern world those who contest this statement present the figures of the world war ii however we must keep in mind that it was a world war and no country had the power to stop it today is the matter not of the power but of the will it seems to be that what we lack is the will second point of difference which makes it different from the holocast sp is that at that time international community didnot have enough muscle to prevent the unfortunate event today inspite of all the might the international community is not just standing neutral but has placed an arms embargo which is to the obvious disadvantage of the weeker side and therefore to the advantage of the bully hence indirecltly and possibly unintentionally mankind has sided with the killers and this i think is unprecedented in the history of the modern world m rizvi
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re turkey cyprus bosnia serbia greece armenia azeris in article c if u ky news cso uiuc edu ptg uxa cso uiuc edu panos tamamidis writes yeah too much mutlu argic isn t helping i could one day proceed and you shouldn t think many turks read mutlu argic stuff they are in my kill file likewise any other fanatic i have nothing against greeks but my problem is with fanatics i have met so many greeks who wouldn t even talk to me because i am turkish from my experience all my friends always were open to greeks well the history wars current situations all of them do not help well panos mr tamamidis the way you put it it is only the turks who bear the responsibility of the things happening today that is hard to believe for somebody trying to be objective when it comes to conflicts like our countries having you cannot blame one side only there always are bad guys on both sides what were you doing on anatolia after the ww anyway do you think it was your right to be there i am not saying that conflicts started with that it is only not one side being the aggressive and the ither always suffering it is sad that we both still are not trying to compromise i remember the action of the turkish government by removing the visa requirement for greeks to come to turkey i thought it was a positive attempt to make the relations better the greeks i mentioned who wouldn t talk to me are educated people they have never met me but they know i am bad person because i am from turkey politics is not my business and it is not the business of most of the turks when it comes to individuals why the hatred so that makes me think that there is some kind of brainwashing going on in greece after all why would an educated person treat every person from a nation the same way can you tell me about your history books and things you learn about greek turkish encounters during your schooling take it easy tankut atan tankut iastate edu achtung baby
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peace talks from israeline today s ma ariv reports that yesterday following egyptian president hosni mubarak s meeting with plo chief yasser arafat and prominent palestinian faisal al husseini the latter said that in principle the palestinians have decided to participate in the peace talks nonetheless he noted that everything will be decided upon at the meeting of the arab foreign ministers in damascus the newspaper also reports that threatening phone calls were recently made to houses of several of the senior members of the palestinian delegation to the peace talks the threats in arabic demanded that the delegates not go to washington to sell out the palestinian people one caller threatened should you go you will not find your family alive upon your return the newspaper states that such phone calls were received as far as is known at the houses of faisal al husseini hanan ashrawi and others naftaly stramer intergraph electronics internet nstramer dazixco ingr com lookout road suite a voice fax boulder co quality is everybody s job and it s everybody s job to watch all that they can
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accounts of anti armenian human rights violations in azerbaijan accounts of anti armenian human rights violations in azerbaijan prelude to current events in nagorno karabakh they grab papa carry him into one room and mamma and me into another they put mamma on the bed and start undressing her beating her legs they start tearing my clothes right there in front of mamma i don t remember where they went what they did or how much time passed i had the feeling that they beat me on the head on my body and tore my clothes all at the same time i don t even know what i said the atrocities started i was savagely raped in that room they argued among themselves who would go first deposition of karine karina grigorevna m born secretary typist azsantekmontazh trust sumgait construction and installation administration secretary of the smu komsomol organization resident at building b apartment microdistrict no sumgait azerbaijan on the th my sister marina and i went to the movies the seven o clock show at the theater that is across from the city party committee about yards away the sk theater they were showing an argentinian film the abyss before the film we noticed about to people standing near the podium at the city party committee but they were silent there s no conversation whatsoever and we couldn t figure out what was going on that is we knew it was about karabagh but what it was exactly what they were talking about if someone gave a speech or not we didn t know we bought our tickets there were or people in the theater this was a very small number for that large movie theater the film started about minutes later they stopped the film a crowd burst in about people they came up onto the stage well mostly they were young people from to years old they demanded that an armenian woman come up onto the stage they used foul language and said that they were going to show what azerbaijanis were capable of what they could do to armenian girls i thought that s what they meant because they had demanded a girl specifically marina and i were sitting together i told her to move over there were some russian girls sitting nearby so that if someone recognized me or if something happened they would take me and not marina it got quiet or girls jumped up to run out but the door was closed it s only opened at the end of the show and they returned to their seats everyone in the theater was looking at one another russians azerbaijanis people of various nationalities but no one reacted at all no one in the auditorium made a sound they were silent looking at one another and gradually started to leave some guy a really fat one says ok we ve scared them enough let s leave they leave slowly pompously it seemed to me that those people were not themselves either they had smoked a bunch of anasha or had taken something else because they all looked beastly like they were ready to tear anyone apart then it was all over as though nothing had happened at all the film started up again it was one of those cheerful films which should have only brought pleasure made you happy to be alive we could barely sit to the end so it had started at seven it was over by nine and it was dark marina and i were walking home lenin street that s the center of town lenin street was packed just packed with young people they were shouting something about karabagh and something about armenians we weren t especially listening because the way we were feeling we didn t know if we were going to make it home or not and just what had happened anyway public transportation wasn t running incidentally when we came out of the theater we saw police policemen standing there the director of the movie theater was looking at the doors because when they were leaving they had broken the glass the doors there are basically all glass everything was broken he stood there grief stricken but looking as though nothing really big had happened like some naughty boys had just broken them quite by accident with a slingshot well since he looked more or less calm i decided that nothing all that super serious had happened we went out very slowly we wanted to catch a bus we live literally one stop away we didn t want to go on foot not because it was dark but because something might happen we flagged down a cab but the driver didn t want to take us we told him we live near the bus station and he said he d take us to the bus station and not a yard farther i said well ok so we got into the cab and managed to get there something incredible was happening at the bus station there was a traffic jam public transportation was at a standstill and everyone was shouting ka ra bagh they re not going to give up karabagh i go home and tell my family what s going on and there s immediate panic in the house mamma says what should we do like the end had come they were going to come kill us that s it somehow we managed to cheer ourselves up nothing that bad could happen where are we living anyway just what kind of social order do we have somehow we manage to calm mamma down and we went to bed but no one could sleep everyone made as though nothing had happened that was on saturday in short the day went by we didn t go anywhere and didn t call our relatives no one did anything because life goes on that day i realized something was approaching but what exactly i couldn t guess on the th everything was like it was supposed to be we lived like we always had there were five of us at home mamma papa and us three sisters lyuda marina and i my sister lyuda was in yerevan at the time we sat at home and no one went out later we learned that a demonstration had started that morning it all started they were smashing up stores we were sitting at home and didn t know anything about it then a girlfriend of mine lyuda zimogliad came by at around three o clock i think we worked together we did our apprenticeships together she s a russian girl she said that something awful was happening in town i asked don t they want armenians well what are they after if they re already in that state she says no nothing like that it s just a demonstration but it s awful to watch it somehow it feels like a war has broken out public transportation has been stopped the cabs the buses well it s just a nightmare then papa decides to go to the drugstore my mother was having allergy problems at the time he left the house and our neighbor aunt vera asked him where are you going stop there are such terrible things going on in the courtyard aren t you afraid to go out papa didn t know what she was talking about she simply pushed him back into the entryway he came home and told mamma mamma said well if aunt vera was talking like that it means that something is really going on but we didn t go see her she s a russian she lives across from us i had to see my friend out around five o clock i tell lyuda ok look it s time for you to go it s late already i ll see you out mamma says you don t need to go it s too late already you can see what the situation in town is so we decided to stay home dinner was ready mamma says let her eat with us then she can go we sat down at the table but no one was hungry no one was in the mood we just put everything out on the table to calm ourselves down and make it appear that we re eating we turned on the television and the show in fairy tale land was coming on we cleared the table we hear some noise out in the courtyard i go out on the balcony but i can t see what s going on because the noise is coming from the direction of the bus station and there is a story building in the way there is mob of people i can t figure out what s happening they re shouting something looking somewhere i can t make out what is going on i go down to a neighbor she s an azerbaijani we ve been friends of her family for about years i go down to look from their place i see people shouting looking at the and story buildings near the bus station just then soldiers set upon them about people with clubs the mob runs off in different directions i even see several people from our building they are looking and laughing i decide that means it s not all that bad if they are laughing it means they re not killing anyone but now the crowd suddenly dashes toward the soldiers one of the soldiers cannot manage to get away they start stomping on him with their feet everyone s kicking him i become ill and go home and explain in general terms that horrible things are going on out there can t speak well they ve probably killed that soldier the way that crowd is if each of them kicked him just once they took his club away from him and started to beat him with it but it was far away and i couldn t see if he got up and left or not i become terrified and go home and say lyuda don t go anywhere stay at our place because if you go out they could kill you or then the crowd runs over closer toward our building and stands at the story building and starts shouting something we go out onto the balcony all of our neighbors are also out on theirs too everyone is standing staring the mob is shouting and about minutes later comes running toward our building as it turns out at the story building the azerbaijani neighbors went down and kept them from coming in there s only one entryway there they could stop them they all run up to our building mamma immediately starts closing the windows afraid that they might throw stones they have stones and they break the windows all of them there are very many people we have a large courtyard and it s packed with people they spill up to the first floor so they don t crush each other they crawl up on trees posts and garages it s just a huge cloud of people they break and burn the motorcycle of the armenian sergey sargisian from our building we close the windows and immediately hear tramping in our entryway they come up to our fifth floor with a tremendous din and roar it s incomprehensible mamma told me later that they were shouting father s name grisha open the door we ve come to kill you or something like that i don t remember that i was spaced out kind of mamma says into the bedroom quickly in the bedroom we have two tall beds part of our dowry mamma says hide there they probably won t come in there they ll ask something say something and leave she says we ll tell them that we live alone here i can t imagine that my parents will stand out in the hall alone talking with some sort of beasts i go to them and say that i ll stand together with them i ll talk with them if they come maybe i can find a common language with them all the more so if they know me i speak azerbaijani more or less and i can find out what they want i told marina and lyuda to hide under the bed and my sister lyuda i can t remember if i told her anything or not then they open the door it s like they blew on it and it broke and fell right into the hall the crows bursts in and starts to shout get out of here leave vacate the apartment and go back to your armenia things like that i tell them what has happened speak calmly one of you tell me calmly what has happened in azerbaijani they say get out of the apartment leave i say ok go downstairs we ll gather everything we need and leave the apartment i realize that it is senseless to discuss any sort of rights with them these are animals they must be stopped the ones standing in the doorway the young guys say there are old people and one girl with them too bad they take two or three steps back it seems as though i have pacified them with our exchange then someone in the courtyard shouts commanding them don t you understand what you are saying kill them and that was it that was all it took they grab papa carry him into one room and mamma and me into another they put mamma on the bed and start undressing her beating her legs they start tearing my clothes right there in front of mamma i don t remember where they went what they did or how much time passed i had the feeling that they beat me on the head on my body and tore my clothes all at the same time i don t even know what i said the atrocities started i was savagely raped in that room they argued among themselves who would go first later i remember i came to i don t know if i m dead or alive someone comes in someone tall i think clean shaven in an eskimo dogskin coat balding he looks around at what s happening at that instant everything stops it seems to me that he is either their commander or that somehow everything depends on him he looks and says well we re done here they are beating mamma on the head they break up the chairs and beat her with the chair legs she loses consciousness and they decide that she s dead papa was out cold they want to throw lyuda off the balcony but they can t get the window open apparently the window frames are stuck after the rain and the windows can t be opened they leave her next to the window she was thinking about being thrown out the window and passed out she s not a real strong person anyway he looks at me and sees that i m saying something that i m still twitching well i start saying the opposite of what i should be which is humbling myself and pleading i start shouting cursing they don t get any entreaty out of me i already know that i m dead why would i humble myself before anyone and he says that if that s what i think since my tongue is so long maybe he thinks that i still look quite appealing in short he commands that i be taken outside i no longer saw or remembered what was happening to marina and lyuda i don t know if they are alive or not they take me outside they are dragging me by my arms by my legs they are hitting me against the wall the railings something metal while they are carrying me someone is biting me someone else is pinching me i don t even know i think my god when will death come if only it were sooner then they carry me out throw me near the entryway and start kicking me i lose consciousness what happened after that how many people there were i don t remember i come to after a while i don t remember how long a neighbor is bringing me clothing i m entirely covered with blood she puts a dress on me i remember that i said the same words over and over again mamma what happened mamma what have they done to us where are we whose house are we at i can t make sense out of anything there is a guy standing over me i sort of know him he served in afghanistan his name is igor he brought me indoors when they all went to the third entryway and killed a person there igor gathered his courage took me into his arms and brought me to the neighbors even though he s small minded he put himself at risk igor agayev is azerbaijani he served in afghanistan there are three brothers the older brother also served there i think now he s stationed here on the border in armenia igor brought me to the neighbors and then helped me come to my senses saying karina i know you calm down i m not one of them how do i know who s who and what s what i come to and they clean me up i was covered in blood then papa i saw papa i saw mamma and marina too igor was there when they dragged marina and lyuda out from under the bed marina lyuda said that she was russian they said we ll let you go we aren t touching the russians go and while they are dragging marina out she decides she s going to tell them she s azerbaijani igor immediately grabs marina s and lyuda s hands because he knows marina and knows that she is armenian and is our sister and takes her to the second floor to a neighbor s and starts pounding on the door so she will open up she opens the door and igor pushes them in there so they survived my sister lyuda lost consciousness after the bandits started stealing things while they were going downstairs taking things downstairs then coming back up again lyuda seized the opportunity and crawled under the bed and stayed there then when she was herself again she found a torn night shirt and put it on and some sort of robe and went to a neighbor s on the fourth floor the one whose apartment i had watched the crowd from the friend of ours and knocked on the door the neighbor opened and said i m not going to let you in the apartment because i m afraid of them but i ll give you some stockings and we ll leave the building lyuda says i ll stay at your place because of what s going on they keep going up and down the stairs it was just for a moment just a moment in life but the neighbor wouldn t consent lyuda came back to our place and lay under the bed i came to mother was there i can t remember my supervisor s telephone number but something had to be done somehow i remembered and called and he came to get us he didn t have any idea what was going on he thought we were simply afraid he didn t know that they were killing us and that we had passed between life and death he came and got us and took us to the police precinct there they looked us over i was having trouble walking my lungs hurt badly it was hard to breathe my supervisor s name is urshan feyruzovich mamedov he s the head of our administration they took us there when we were leaving i saw a great number of buses full of soldiers at the entrance to town the buses were ordinary passenger buses there were very many soldiers we left around eleven right after eleven if these people could stop what was happening they could save a great many lives because the crowd was moving on toward the school and what was going on there i think everyone know not only in sumgait not only in yerevan because there they murdered them all one after the next without stopping after us i think people died in microdistrict no and to of them were from buildings and in our building one person died and one old woman died from building that s the building in front of ours there young azerbaijani men stopped the mob and wouldn t let it into their building incidentally when we were at the neighbors marina called our relatives to warn them so they would all know what was happening i called a aunt in microdistrict no they have three neighbors who are armenians i said run quickly i can t explain what s going on hide do what you can just stay alive hide at azerbaijanis ones who won t give you away at that moment three people came in policemen i think they were azerbaijanis i was in such awful condition my face was completely distorted my lips were puffed up there was blood my eye was swollen no one thought i would ever see anything out of that eye again my forehead was badly cut and one half of my face was pushed out forward no one would have thought that i would survive get my normal appearance back and be able to grasp anything at all i started to scream at those people why did you come who sent you here no one wants you here haven t you killed people people yet what are you doing here one of the soldiers said don t scream at us we re muslims but we re not from the sumgait police they called in from daghestan so at that point the daghestan police were there when we got to the police precinct there were an awful lot of police there there were soldiers police with dogs ambulances firemen i don t know maybe they were waiting for people to bring them the goners and the seriously injured to treat them there in the police precinct i don t know what they were there for there were also doctors from baku there they examined lyuda and me and said these women need to go to the maternity home but we don t know what to do with the rest so they took us and i lost contact with my parents my boss everyone my boss said don t worry i ll find you no matter where you are no matter what happens we went to the hospital there we were examined by a department head from the sumgait maternity home pashayeva i think her name was she examined us the ambulance was from baku i figured out that the sumgait ambulances hadn t done anything they didn t respond to any calls people called and neither the police nor the ambulances showed any sign of life that doctor looked me over and i could tell from her behavior that something very good had happened for she became quite glad i even thought to myself god can it be that nothing all that bad is wrong she looks me over and says now why are you suffering so you don t know what your people have been doing your people did even worse things and i think great i have to deal with her and i felt so bad i thought why don t i just die so as not to have to hear more stuff like this from people like her here i am in this condition and being told about something that our people did i just didn t have the energy to say how could our people possibly be smart enough to think of something that yours haven t already done i stayed there then they brought in another woman ira b she was married and she was raped in her own apartment too there were three of us ira lyuda and the next morning they took lyuda and ira away they didn t do anything to help us this was in the old maternity home in the combined block they didn t do anything more than examine me that was it i didn t want any shots or tranquilizer nothing what shots could have calmed me down i didn t even want to look at them i lay in the ward either it just worked out that way or they did it on pur pose but i was alone i was alone even though the wards were packed that same evening a woman came by and asked me what was wrong with me that my face was disfigured she asked what had happened to me and i said better to ask your brother what happened there s no point in asking me your brother can better explain what happened she fell into a faint all the doctors threw themselves at her and the doctor categorically forbade anyone to come into my ward then people from work came to see me my boss his daughter they brought me clothing because i was literally naked the only thing i had on was a dress but the woman who gave it to me was very short and the dress was way up above my knees and the woman orderly said i can t believe you put on such a short dress who are you showing off your legs to here i went back to my ward thinking just one more thing from something people from work came and brought me something in a sack apples i think three or four pounds but i couldn t take them i had become so weak that it was just embarrassing i said that i couldn t take the apples and really didn t have any appetite no one had to bring me anything some woman took the sack and oh yes then i heard that the head doctor tell a nurse that my medical history should be hidden or torn up completely so that no one would know that i was an armenian maybe they wouldn t figure it out from looking at me so they must have been thinking that there would be some kind of attack that something else would happen that it would be worse or perhaps someone was outside on the street i don t know in any case i didn t sleep a wink that night the next morning they picked me up a whole police detail put me in a bus and off we went i didn t even know where they were taking me they took me to the club where the troops were the very one i was in that ill fated evening i got off the bus near the city party committee there were a great many troops tanks armored personnel carriers the whole scene was terrible i saw a few people i knew there and that calmed me a little i had already thought that i was the only one left so there were five or six of us left in sumgait after that night i still didn t know what happened to my parents they didn t come to see me in the hospital and my boss told me that everything was fine i didn t know whether to believe him or not maybe he was just trying to calm me down maybe something happened on the way then i went to the club and saw a lot of people i knew they all knew one another they were all kissing each other and asking what happened what went on two days later they came to see me from work they were there all the time each day they came showed interest and were constantly bringing me money they did everything they could of course i m most thankful to my boss the only one of my colleagues who didn t lose his presence of mind and who didn t change his opinions neither before nor after nor in the heat of the moment no matter what happened he constantly took an interest a sincere interest from the heart then about two days later the secretary of the party committee came not from our party organization but from the first trust which ours is part of comrade kerimov a very important figure in our town he made arrangements with the emergency medical personnel to take me away because if i sat down by myself i couldn t get up or lie down again there was something wrong with my lungs it was hard to breathe they examined me there several times there i lay were several doctors they all thought that that it must just be from all the blows i don t know they didn t diagnose anything in particular when i was in the maternity home i even asked i made it a point of insisting that they take me to the trauma section because i felt so awful there was no way something inside wasn t broken my ribs well they took me there and took x rays and said that everything was fine there were emergency medical workers on duty in the club the mother of one of marina s friends was there she was the head doctor at the sumgait children s clinic they had every kind of antifever agent in the world which was exactly what i needed at that moment i thought i said that i was having great difficulty breathing i couldn t seem to get enough air something was wrong with me they put tight bandages around my chest and waist later i overheard some people saying that i had been cut all over i think they just saw me being all bandaged up and decided that my breasts and face had been cut but i wasn t cut they took us to the khimik boarding house we lived there a long time soon appeared representatives they were agitating at first people would not talk to them and drove them off one of the armenian women shouted we demand that seidov come the response was it s seidov who sent us seidov is the chairman of the azerbaijani council of ministers the woman said we ll only see seidov s daughter have her come here we ll do the same things to her that they did to our daughters and then we ll deal with you agitators and so on more of them said have seidov himself come this went on day in day out the agitators kept coming and coming this drove us out of our wits then people gradually started departing for yerevan because they realized it was senseless to stay everything got on our nerves the smell the small children there were children at the sk club children who had literally just come out of the maternity home what were they doing in a club that didn t even have running water all the time at first we had to pay to eat there they even overcharged us as it turned out on the second day someone told us that they would bring us food for free the children were ill everything stank there well imagine about people in a small movie theater with seating for no more than you couldn t sit or lie down it was impossible to even move the stench was awful even the smallest infants took ill overnight there i heard that they were arriving seriously ill in yerevan the infants they have to be washed they have to be bathed not to mention that we the adults were ill and needed care people were fainting right and left i just don t know everyone was crying everyone only the young people the men somehow managed to keep it together but the women were in a constant state of panic it seemed to everyone that they would come any minute and kill and stab it seemed clear that we had been gathered together purposely like during the war so that they could burn the movie theater and there wouldn t be a single armenian left then people went up to the attic i didn t see them i only heard them because i was lying down and couldn t get up i lay right on the stage we had some room there apparently they caught two people with either oil or gas i think they wanted to burn the theater maybe someone saw them i didn t i was in no condition to open my eyes everyone was suspicious of everyone else they would ask aren t you an azerbaijani i think i saw you somewhere i think you re an azerbaijani they led out all the men and started letting them back in by checking their passports relatives might be covering for each other half of the people did not have any documents there were people who had run out of their homes in nothing but a pair of pants and slippers or wearing just a shirt not like they should have with their ids so on the th on sunday i think the police did nothing to help us on monday everything resumed where it had left off on block a they didn t spare a soul there not children not pregnant women nobody they killed they burned they hacked with axes just everything possible they murdered the melkumian family whom i knew my mother worked with them their daughter in law went to school with my older sister they were brutally murdered only the two daughters in law survived by a miracle one was able to save herself she ran away the neighbors wouldn t take her in so she ran about the building until she found refuge she was pregnant and had two small children this all continued on monday in block a on the th when the troops were already in the city they murdered people they overturned automobiles and they burned entire families they say they didn t even know for sure if the people were armenians or not i heard that the lezgins suffered too i m not sure myself i didn t see any lezgins who had been injured they burned cars so it s very difficult now to say exactly who died and who didn t it was very difficult to identify the corpses or rather what remained of the corpses after they were doused in gasoline and burned it s all very hard to imagine of course i heard that many people disappeared without a trace from the btz plant two people including a woman who worked the night shift aunt razmella who also lived in microdistrict they were stopping buses between baku and sumgait in the evening people who had been visiting baku were returning to sumgait and people from baku were going home from sumgait and there were students too they were simply savagely murdered they were stopping the buses the drivers immediately did what they were told because there was just no other way to deal with that hoard of brutally minded people they stopped the buses dragged the armenians out and killed them on the spot i didn t see it myself but i heard that they put them all in a pile so as to burn them later it was hard to discern from the corpses well you can t call them corpses you had to figure out from the ashes who it was l heard that two fellows saved two women one a student ira g if i m not mistaken she was in the hospital a long time after that and she still can t figure out who saved her she was also brutally raped and beaten and thrown onto a pile of corpses the fellow pulled her out of that whole pile of corpses put his coat on her took her into his arms and carried her to the city i still can t imagine how he managed to do that i heard that from engels grigorian he knows her apparently well a lot of people went to that hospital anyway she was in the hospital and singing a song in armenian and they wrote the words down and i think he still has that piece of paper because he says that a lot of people now have that song the one she sang in the hospital where she lay in such bad shape they couldn t find the guy who saved her he left her in someone s apartment and called the ambulance she was in such awful shape that probably like me she couldn t remember anyone s face i think that i knew one of the people who broke into our house maybe i had talked with him once but i received so many blows everything was just knocked out of my head i can t remember to this day who he was then it seems i saw the secretary of the directorate s party organization where marina works she goes to school and works she goes to night school at azi and works by day at the khimzashchita construction and installation administration i m the secretary of the komsomol organization at our administration and often met with the secretaries of party and komsomol organizations we had joint meetings i know them all i ve even talked with them and he i know is from armenia an azerbaijani but from armenia it became obvious that many of those people were azerbaijanis born in armenia they took me to various police stations to the police precinct and to the procuracy because the ussr procuracy got involved in the case and i iden tified the photographs of people who i could more or less recognize they showed me the people who were in our apartment they re working on our case but i can t even recognize them although it was proved that they were the ones they re processing it somehow they tell me that they know that someone held me by the arm and someone else held me by the leg when they were dragging me there was someone else in our apartment who did not even touch me he just stole a blanket and an earring or something like that all these people all of them as much as i ve heard about them and seen them they were all from kafan the secretary of the party organization is named najaf najaf rzayev he was there when everything started it must have been him because i didn t recognize anyone else in the crowd whom i knew besides him all the more since i told him listen you do something because you know me he turned away and went toward the bedroom where marina was well you couldn t see marina anyway there was such a noisy confusion of people that you couldn t make out anyone all of it flew right out of my head and then gradually i became myself again at the city party committee there were military people there i told them what went on and they wrote it all down i told them his name on march the secretary of our first trust party organization the one we re part of came to see us his name is najaf rzayev i tell mamma if he s here despite the fact that i gave his name it means that either his alibi has been confirmed or probably that they think i m crazy not responsible for my words he said what did they do to you how awful myself i hid an armenian family then after some time goes by he comes back again and says something entirely different i wasn t at home my family and i went to baku i said marina what is he saying he said something totally different before after that i didn t go to see our procurator our case is being handled by a procurator from voronezh fedorov by name fedorov told me that rzayev s case had just gotten to him and there were so names involved what are they doing with rzayev did he prove his alibi or not they just think that since i was hit in the head i can t say anything for sure whether it was him or not it will be an insult if he was in our apartment and doesn t have to pay for it but at the same time i m afraid to say i m a hundred percent sure that it was he because no mat ter who i name they tell me no you re wrong he didn t do that that one wasn t there all the faces have gotten mixed up in my mind who did what exactly i can t say when they took me outside there was a whole crowd there but i didn t see it because i had my eyes closed all the time it seemed to me that i always got it because of my eyes people were always hassling me for some reason it always seemed to me that my eyes are responsible when they were beating my face i thought they were trying to put my eyes out so i had my eyes closed they took me outside and started to beat me a young guy held my arms he works at the btz plant and right nearby across the road from us block is where all this was going on right across the road from us the btz dormitory is over there that s where he lives now he s in custody they even have proved as far as i know that it was he who killed shurik gambarian the clarinet player from the third entryway of our building one person in our building was killed it was that man a guy comes by who shared a room with the guy who was holding me he saw that he was holding me by the arms and that he was beating me but he didn t come over he just looked and then went into the dormitory a while after it was all over people started making announcements in town saying that investigators had been summoned that guy went and told them everything now they ve caught him everything s been proved now evidently they ve been beating him i don t know what they re doing with them over there but he himself said that he was working the night shift at the plant some young guy came to the plant and said everyone who wants to kill armenians come to the bus station on saturday at ten that was it he said the ones who wanted to went this was at the btz plant during the night shift probably late friday night it was at night they were at the sauna together and he said what do you mean do you understand what you are saying the others were silent probably in their hearts they were thinking i m going to go but they didn t say anything to one another he said that he thought it important to to go because he had heard a lot about what had happened in kafan that they had killed their azerbaijani sisters their mothers burned villages and all of that that guy was also born in kafan that is certain and marina says that the secretary of the party organization is from armenia too from i ve participated in the investigation a couple of times i m satisfied with them thus far they summoned us and asked about what happened and every word i said was recorded i met some guy there by the way he was an armenian i said that he was in our apartment but what he did i don t know his last name was grigorian eduard grigorian he s from sumgait from microdistrict he was sentenced i think to five years not his first time his mother is russian i met with him at the kgb in baku at the azerbaijani kgb they took us there and showed me photographs there were so many photographs i think they even photographed those people who were caught at curfew and i ve got them all confused i say the face was about like this the guy in the white coat with the red clasps but he could take that coat off and burn it somewhere and it would be like looking for a needle in a haystack well this guy grigorian i said he was in our apartment but he is so light complected that he looks like a lezgin i don t know what he did i can t remember maybe he beat me or raped me but he was in our apartment at the kgb he started asking me pleading with me there s no need for this all this stuff look me in the eyes you re like a sister to me i took a look at him and thought my god heaven forbid that i should have a brother like you but they were satisfied with my responses because i said everything without great certainty i was there with mamma then lyuda came in but when she came in she got sick immediately she wanted to kill him she crawled over the table at him she recognized him when she came to lyuda was lying on the balcony the mob threw her there and all of them ran into the bedroom we had all kinds of boxes with dishes in them the dowries for all three sisters they stole everything in the apartment leaving only small things at that moment lyuda came to and started remembering everything well seeing the faces hearing the voices two people were saying they could burn the apartment another says why burn the apartment when i ve got three kids and no place to live so this guy was in temporary housing he didn t have anywhere to live he was from sumgait they were sure that they would get the apartment besides the neighbors were azerbaijani why should they burn the apartment they might burn azerbaijanis that s what they said how did they know there were azerbaijanis there if they just picked a place thinking that armenians lived there we have a list of the residents for our part of the building our name is in there but how could they know that azerbaijanis lived on the other side of the wall from us so they didn t set fire to our apartment i don t know i was in such bad shape that if all of it had come to a halt when i was outside if someone had asked me what was happening i would have said that a civil war was going on well maybe not civil but probably civil because when they were beating me i opened my eyes and saw that all the neighbors were standing on their balconies and watching like at a free horror film so a civil war was going on and only the armenians were being fought if it were a world war or something like that they would have been fighting everyone but they only fought us then i met some women from our building some azerbaijanis they are crying they tell me karina we saw all of it how could it happen they re asking me well i just don t know what to call it if a normal girl can stand there and watch what happened to me i think that if it were the other way around either i wouldn t have been able to take it or i would have tried to avert it like that one azerbaijani woman did in front of our building a woman lives there an awful dissipated woman if you can call her a woman the dissipated life she leads two armenian families live there in her part of the building she came out on the balcony and saw what was happening to me and started to scream and curse she came down to the entryway and said you ll come in this entryway over my dead body so not one of them took it in his head to go in that entryway some folks were saying that those people were so out of control that they didn t even know what they were doing i don t think that s true they knew very well what they were doing if they didn t even lift a hand against that woman they couldn t have cared less about her but the fact that she was an azerbaijani stopped them they were just beasts they had smoked so much when they came to our place they were all chewing something i noticed everyone who came into the apartment was chewing something i think my god maybe i just think that maybe i m losing my mind but no they re all chewing something maybe it is some kind of drug it must be because at first glance they all seemed to be such normal people young clean shaven looking exactly as if they had come to some sort of celebration but they were shouting something they didn t talk they shouted as though there were deaf people there they screamed and screamed yeah killing killing we re killing the armenians only they didn t shout kill they shouted gurun ermianlary gurun literally means kill or destroy that s how it was i ll continue we hid in a captain s apartment he s an azerbaijani his wife is a tatar we were sitting in their apartment their kids were out in the yard their kids knew a whole lot this was in our part of the building on the third floor when mamma came to and couldn t find lyuda she took papa s hand this was while the looters were stealing things but they didn t pay attention because they were stealing things apparently they had already ceased killing and switched to stealing mamma found the courage to a boy said to my mother where s the gold mamma said he must have been to years old he even looked russian he was so fair skinned but the azerbaijanis from armenia are fair skinned i noticed they were all on the fair side he shouted they were all smashing things and he asks mamma where the gold is we kept our gold in the wardrobe with our important papers in a little black bag we kept everything in there mamma doesn t really like to wear gold she probably never even wore those things from the time they were bought for her they took everything that was lying on the cheval glass mamma thinks that the gold saved us because they threw themselves at the gold and mamma grabbed papa who was trying to breathe they had closed his mouth bound his hands and put a pillow and a chair on his face they had shoved something into his mouth so he would suffocate mamma grabbed him and tore all that stuff off he had something in his mouth he was having trouble breathing his nose was filled with blood mamma grabbed him and started running from the fifth down to the first floor because no one wanted to open their doors to them mamma said that by accident completely by accident that person opened his door he was sleeping and said half awake what s happened he sees that they are bloody mamma said at least go and find out what s happening to my daughters even if they ve burned them or murdered them at least bring the corpses he went looking for us at that moment lyuda was under the bed she says that after they left it seemed that someone was calling her name when he quietly called her she couldn t get out from under the bed she wanted to get out and was calling softly she thought she was shouting but in fact she was either silent or was only talking to herself it just seemed to her that she was shouting when she got out from under the bed everyone was gone and again she thought that she had lost her mind i ll never leave here never to hell with it it just seems that way to me i ll come to eventually but then when everything had settled down stopped that mall brought lyuda down and igor carried me in from outside or first i was brought in then lyuda i don t remember what order it happened in and mamma said listen they re all running around down there shouting something or other and running toward the other building it had more or less calmed down where we were who s dead who s alive we don t know i tried to call my girlfriend i had basically come to mamma says listen let s go upstairs at least get a mattress or something we don t know how long we ll be here maybe they didn t burn everything i don t get it all women have that feeling they want to get something from their homes maybe not everything was taken i tell mamma mamma what do you need any of that for to hell with it we re alive forget the rest of it all of it she says no let s go get at least something maybe we ll leave here spend the night at someone else s mamma went upstairs and their little boy their son alik was standing on the lookout lie was standing there to see if they were coming they only managed to run up there and grab something one time he shouts come back they re coming they didn t have enough time to get a lot mattresses from one apartment a blanket from another mamma got my knitting someone managed to grab our old things the ones we never wore out of the hall someone took father s old coveralls the neighbor his wife mamma and papa marina went with them i was in no condition to leave neither was lyuda we just sat they ran out and we closed the door and just then we hear that the mob is on its way toward our place upstairs they re dragging something again they were going toward the other building maybe over by the school or there was an unfinished building over there people said they were going toward the basement or the unfinished building they could gradually carry everything over there then things more or less calmed down i tried to call my boss later there was more noise we were on the third floor in a one bedroom apartment and a woman lives in the one bedroom place on the second floor asya dallakian she s an old woman retired she wasn t at home at that time she was usually in the country she has a married daughter there and her grandson is in the army she is only very rarely in town she gets her retirement money and the apartment is essentially vacant they started pounding on her door and broke it down she had two or three beds in there something like that she s a to year old woman who really does not even live there probably she had some pots a couple of metal bed frames and mattresses and a television when her grandson came she bought a television they started wrecking everything i started getting sick again i think my god what is going on around here when will this end we turned off the lights and sat as it turns out the people who weren t afraid the ones who knew what was going on knew not to turn off the lights we didn t know but they didn t come to where we were all the same they all knew very well that he was a captain he went out and closed the door and we sat in his apartment his last name was kasumov he s an exserviceman retired works up at the fire station at some plant or other he went out and stood at his door they tell him comrade captain don t worry we won t harm you you re one of us he went upstairs and they say aren t you taking anything from this apartment he says i don t need anything and the women who were standing in the yard we have a basement full of water the women who were standing in the yard saw those guys they left everything they stole on the first floor and ran upstairs again the women threw everything they had time to into the basement to save our property some things were left dirty pillows two or three other things and a rug a guy came downstairs really mad and he says where s the rug i just put it right here they tell him some guy came and took it and went off toward the school he ran off in that direction oh i forgot the most important point when igor picked me up in his arms there were women standing there who saw everything that was going on they just didn t tell me about it for a long time the wife of that military man she didn t want to kill my spirit i was already dead enough later she told me that after they murdered uncle shurik in the third entryway one of them the ringleader apparently a young man said where s the girl who was here and he became furious the woman tells him she came to she didn t know what to say think something up someone carried her off then they would comb the whole house and find me and our whole family so the woman says she came to and went to the basement now our basement is full of water so the whole mob dashes off to the basement to look for me or my corpse they took flashlights they were up to their waists in water water which had been standing there for years and soot and fuel oil they climbed down in there to get me then one of them said there s so much water down there she probably walked and walked and then passed out and died she met her death in the basement that s it we can leave no problem i didn t know that and when i was told i felt worse two times worse a lot worse so they didn t just want to pound me flat something more awful was awaiting me after that we of course didn t want to live in sumgait any longer we really didn t want to go back to our apartment when we moved i went up there and started to quiver and shake all over because i started remembering it all although the neighbors all sobbed it was all so cheap the people who sat in their apartments and didn t help us at a time like that i think that they could have helped i don t think that they were obligated to but they could have helped us because that one woman was able to stop that whole brutal crowd by herself that means they could have too it would have been enough foe one man or women to say what do you think you re doing that s all that would have done it there were apartments in our building not one person said it when i was lying on the ground and all those people were standing on their balconies i didn t hear anyone s voice no one said what are you doing leave her alone mamma even told one of the neighbor women that if it had been an azerbaijani woman in my place they would have dropped a bomb if it would have killed even one armenian they would have stood up for one of their own true they say that our neighbor from the fourth entryway an old sick woman tried to stop the pogrom the azerbaijanis have a custom if a woman takes her scarf and throws it on the ground the men are supposed to stop immediately the old woman from the fourth entryway did that but they stomped her scarf into the ground pushed her off to the side and said if you want to go on living you ll disappear into your apartment so she left that trick didn t work on them even the neighbors who helped us move told me ok fine calm down forget that it happened i said i d only forget it if i told them right then that it had happened to their daughter and if that didn t have any effect on them then i would forget everything too imagine that it happened to your sister and no one did anything anything april yerevan reference the sumgait tragedy pogroms against armenians in soviet azerbaijan volume i eyewitness accounts edited by samuel shahmuradian forward by yelena bonner published by aristide d caratzas ny pages david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org how do we explain turkish troops on s d p a center for regional studies the armenian border when we can t p o box even explain cambridge ma turkish mp march
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re was go hezbollah in article c huba cjo news cso uiuc edu eshneken ux cso uiuc edu edward a shnekendorf writes amehdi src honeywell com hossien amehdi writes you know when israelis f thanks to general dynamics fly high in the sky and bomb the hell out of some village in lebanon where civilians including babies and eldery getting killed is that plain murder or what if you arabs wouldn t position guerilla bases in refugee camps artillery batteries atop apartment buildings and munitions dumps in hospitals maybe civilians wouldn t get killed kinda like saddam hussein putting civilians in a military bunker ed who is the you arabs here since you are replying to my article you are assuming that i am an arab well i m not an arab but i think you are brain is full of shit if you really believe what you said the bombardment of civilian and none civilian areas in lebanon by israel is very consistent with its policy of intimidation that is the only policy that has been practiced by the so called only democracy in the middle east i was merley pointing out that the other side is also suffering like i said i m not an arab but if i was say a lebanese you bet i would defende my homeland against any invader by any means
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re was go hezbollah amehdi src honeywell com hossien amehdi writes in article c huba cjo news cso uiuc edu eshneken ux cso uiuc edu edward a shnekendorf writes amehdi src honeywell com hossien amehdi writes you know when israelis f thanks to general dynamics fly high in the sky and bomb the hell out of some village in lebanon where civilians including babies and eldery getting killed is that plain murder or what if you arabs wouldn t position guerilla bases in refugee camps artillery batteries atop apartment buildings and munitions dumps in hospitals maybe civilians wouldn t get killed kinda like saddam hussein putting civilians in a military bunker ed who is the you arabs here since you are replying to my article you are assuming that i am an arab well i m not an arab but i think you are brain is full of shit if you really believe what you said the bombardment of civilian and none civilian areas in lebanon by israel is very consistent with its policy of intimidation that is the only policy that has been practiced by the so called only democracy in the middle east what the hell do you know about israeli policy what gives you the fiat to look into the minds of israeli generals has this policy of intimidation been published somewhere for your information the actions taken by arabs specifically the plo were not uncommon in the lebanon campaign of my brain is full of shit at least i don t look into the minds of others and make israeli policy for them i was merley pointing out that the other side is also suffering like i said i m not an arab but if i was say a lebanese you bet i would defende my homeland against any invader by any means yeah yeah yeah we all suffer it s too bad that civilians get killed but i will blame their arab leaders who put them in positions of danger before i will blame the israelis just like palestinians who send their children into warzones to throw rocks at armed israeli soldiers what irresponsible parents as golda meir said peace will only come when the arabs start loving their children more than they hate the jews ed
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lawsuit against adl it looks like yigal has been busy rtw jewish group sued for passing official information by adrian croft san francisco april reuter nineteen people including the son of former israeli defence minister moshe arens sued the anti defamation league adl on wednesday accusing the jewish group of disclosing confidential official information about them richard hirschhaut director of the san francisco branch of the adl art dealer roy bullock and former policeman tom gerard were also named as defendants in the suit filed in san francisco county superior court the accuse the adl of b nai b rith a group dedicated to fighting anti semitism and the other defendants of secretly gathering information on them including data from state and federal agencies the suit alleges they disclosed the information to others including the governments of israel and south africa in what it alleges was a a massive spying operation the action is a class action suit it was filed on behalf of about anti apartheid activists or opponents of israeli policies about whom the plaintiffs believe the adl bullock and gerard gathered information representatives of the adl in san francisco were not immediately available for comment on wednesday the civil suit is the first legal action arising out of allegations that gerard a former inspector in the san francisco police intelligence unit passed confidential police files on california political activists to a spy ring the fbi and san francisco police are investigating the adl bullock and gerard over the affair and last week searched the adl s offices in san francisco and los angeles the suit alleges invasion of privacy under the civil code of california which prohibits the publication of information obtained from official sources it seeks exemplary damages of at least per person as well as other unspecified damages lawyer pete mccloskey a former congresmen who is representing the plaintiffs said the plaintiffs included arab americans and jews and his wife helen who also had information gathered about her one of the plaintiffs is yigal arens a research scientist at the university of southern california who is a son of the former israeli defence minister arens told the san francisco examiner he had seen a file the adl kept on him in the s presumably because of his criticism of the treatment of palestinians and his position on the israeli occupied territories according to court documents released last week bullock and gerard both kept information on thousands of california political activists in the documents a police investigator said he believed the adl paid bullock for many years to provide information and that both the league and bullock received confidential information from the authorities no criminal charges have yet been filed in the case the adl bullock and gerard have all denied any wrongdoing reuter ac kg cm apn adl lawsuit copyright the associated press all rights reserved by catalina ortiz associated press writer san francisco ap arab americans and critics of israel sued the anti defamation league on wednesday saying it invaded their privacy by illegally gathering information about them through a nationwide spy network the adl a national group dedicated to fighting anti semitism intended to use the data to discredit them because of their political views according to the class action lawsuit filed in san francisco superior court none of us has been guilty of racism or nazism or anti semitism or hate crimes or any of the other isms that the adl claims to protect against none of us is violent or criminal in any way said carol el shaieb an education consultant who develops programs on arab culture the plaintiffs include yigal arens son of former israel defense minister moshe arens the younger arens a research scientist at the university of southern california said the adl kept a file on him in the s presumably because he has criticized israel s treatment of palestinians the adl believes that anyone who is an arab american or speaks politically against israel is at least a closet anti semite arens said the adl has denied any wrongdoing but couldn t comment on the lawsuit because it hasn t reviewed it said a spokesman at the adl s new york headquarters the fbi and local police and prosecutors are investigating allegations that the adl spied on thousands of individuals and hundreds of groups including white supremacist and anti semitic organizations arab americans greenpeace the national association for the advancement of colored people and san francisco public television station kqed some information allegedly came from confidential police and government records according to court documents filed in the probe and the civil lawsuit no charges have been filed in the criminal investigation the lawsuit accuses the adl of violating california s privacy law which forbids the intentional disclosure of personal information not otherwise public from state or federal records the lawsuit claims the adl disclosed the information to persons and entities who had no compelling need to receive it it didn t elaborate defendants include richard hirschhaut director of the adl s office in san francisco he did not immediately return a phone call seeking comment other defendants are san francisco art dealer roy bullock an alleged adl informant over the past four decades and former police officer tom gerard gerard allegedly tapped into law enforcement and government computers and passed information on to bullock gerard who has retired from the police force has moved to the philippines bullock s lawyer richard breakstone said he could not comment on the lawsuit because he had not yet studied it upwe adl sued for allegedly spying on u s residents san francisco upi a group of california residents filed suit wednesday charging the anti defamation league of b nai brith with violating their privacy by spying on them for the israeli and south african governments the class action suit filed in san francisco superior court charges the adl and its leadership conspired with a local police official to obtain information on outspoken opponents of israeli policies towards the occupied territories and south africa s apartheid policy the adl refused to comment on the suit the suit also took aim at two top local adl officials and retired san francicso police officer tom gerard claiming they violated privacy guarantees in the state constitution and violated state confidentiality laws according to the suit gerard helped the adl obtain access to confidential files in law enforcement and government computers information from these files were passed to the foreign governments the suit charges the whole concept of an organized collection of information based on political viewpoints and using government agencies as a source of information is absolutely repugnant said former rep pete mccloskey who is representing the plaintiffs the adl s information gathering network was revealed publicly last week when the san francisco district attorney s office released documents indicating the group had spied on people and political and ethnic groups for more than years my understanding is that they the adl consider all activity that is in some sense opposed to israel or israeli action to be part of their responsbility to investigate said arens a research scientist at the university of southern california the adl believes that anyone who is arab american or speaks politically against israel is at least a closet anti semite the fbi and the district attorney s office have been investigating the operation for four months the plaintiffs in the case include arens the son of former israeli defense minister moshe arens in a press release the plaintiffs said the alleged spying had damaged them psychologically and economically and accused the adl of trying to interfere with their freedom of speech
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re water on the brain was re israeli expansion lust i guess hasan finally revealed the source of his claim that israel diverted water from lebanon his imagination alan h stein astein israel nysernet org
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rules of engagement was israelis murdered in march in apr thunder mcrcim mcgill edu hasan mcrcim mcgill edu wrote in article apr frej teknikum uu se flax frej teknikum uu se jonas flygare writes in article apr thunder mcrcim mcgill edu hasan mcrcim mcgill edu writes in article flax apr frej teknikum uu se flax frej teknikum uu se jonas flygare writes first my above statement doesnot say that the existence of israeli citizens in the wb revoke their right of life but it says the israeli occupation of the wb revoke the right of life for some most its citizens basically revokes the right of for its military men clearly occupation is an undeclared war during war attacks against military targets are fully legitimate i d like you to tell me in your own words who the military are wrt israel then in uniform or not on duty or off duty soldier to be or not that is since it s compulsory one might regard any israeli as a legit target using that definition in uniform or not doesnot make a difference if the person is in army on duty or off duty doesnot matter if the army man was on duty or on a vacation week soldier to be or not sure i meant only military men just trying to get this clear so please bear with me as far as i can tell you re proposing the following rules of engagement between israel and the palestinean resistance please feel revise this preliminary draft as necessary israeli military personnel are fair game at any time in uniform or out on duty or off in practice since any male or female israeli of military age may be off duty military all but young children are acceptable targets since the existence of israel constitutes indication of hostile intent no further provocation is required to avoid inpermissable violations of the rights of non combatant palestineans israeli forces must not engage palestineans without positive identification as military personnel clear indication of aggressive intent and a clear field of fire a positive identification may be assured by either checking for palestinean military uniform by posession of exclusively military armament ie t mbts or mig aircraft or self identification either verbal or documentary note that dual use military civilian weaponry such as hand grenades ak rifles and rpg launchers do not constitute positive military identification and require closer inspection such as document checks b aggressive intent as distinct from merely hostile intent which is the normal condition may be assured by not less than three rounds of incoming fire separated by intervals of not less than ten seconds between rounds note that a single burst of automatic weapon fire counds as one round as does a volley of rocket fire from more than one source as noted above dual use weaponry may not be assumed to originate from military personnel and thus do not justify armed response c a clear field of fire can be guaranteed by making a positive military identification of all personnel in the target area of the weapons to be used note that aggressive intent need not be proven for all possible targets thus if iaf aircraft are attacked by a sam crew it is not necessary to check the papers of each crew member so long as none are obviously civilians as indicated for instance by the posession of uniquely civilian weaponry such as stones axes and molotov coctails since it is often difficult for iaf elements to land and make the necessary checks ground forces should first screen prospective strike areas before agm fire for acm purposes a cockpit to cockpit pass within meters is usually sufficient for this purpose but may be repeated if necessary d c sessions speaking for myself note new network address dcs witsend tnet com author and everything else of tmail dos mail news shell
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re israeli expansion lust in article spam maths adelaide edu au jaskew spam maths adelaide edu au joseph askew writes in article apr das harvard edu adam endor uucp adam shostack writes in article apr bnr ca zbib bnr ca writes imho it does not really matter who started any individual battle within the arabs isreal war context the real question is who what started the war does anyone have any doubts it was the creation of israel on arab land huh a war was started when several armies invaded israel vowing to drive the jews into the sea most jews wanted to live in peace and the arabs who stayed in israel were granted citizenship it depends entirely on how you define war the actual fighting largely predates the arab invasions after all deir yassin happened in midapril well before the arab invasion as i have said elsewhere lt col lorch has said that hagana forces were fighting well before the arabs invaded as in months before as for jews wanting to live in peace that to is entirely arguable i think it is easy enough to show that the labour party leadership had no such intention at all as for the arabs who stayed don t you mean those who were not expelled even some of those who did stay were not granted citizenship but expelled after the fighting had stopped anyway joseph askew how do you define war do seiges and constant attacks on villiages count as acts of war or is that only when the jews do them january arab liberation army attacks kfar szold men attack kfar etzion miles south of jerusalem after cutting off the supply lines to it attacks on yehiam western galilee and kibbutz tirat tzvi by mid march the jewish settlements in the negev had been cut off from land links with the rest of the jewish population the etzion group of villiages near hebron had been cut off while members of a convoy trying to supply yehiam were slaughtered cutting off the villiage jerusalem was under seige being cut off from its supply route from tel aviv the bombed out supply trucks have been left on the side of that road to this day in memoriam by this time jews had been killed of course this isn t war since it s only the arabs attacking just like last week when the fatah launched katyusha rockets against northern israel where does uprising end and war begin will it still be intifadah when the plo brings in tanks joseph askew gauche and proud in the autumn stillness see the pleiades jaskew spam maths adelaide edu remote in thorny deserts fell the grief disclaimer sue see if i care north of our tents the sky must end somwhere actually i rather like brenda beyond the pale the river murmurs on amir
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re was go hezbollah from article apr src honeywell com by amehdi src honeywell com hossien amehdi in article c huba cjo news cso uiuc edu eshneken ux cso uiuc edu edward a shnekendorf writes amehdi src honeywell com hossien amehdi writes you know when israelis f thanks to general dynamics fly high in the sky and bomb the hell out of some village in lebanon where civilians including babies and eldery getting killed is that plain murder or what if you arabs wouldn t position guerilla bases in refugee camps artillery batteries atop apartment buildings and munitions dumps in hospitals maybe civilians wouldn t get killed kinda like saddam hussein putting civilians in a military bunker ed who is the you arabs here since you are replying to my article you are assuming that i am an arab well i m not an arab but i think you are brain is full of shit if you really believe what you said the bombardment of civilian and none civilian areas in lebanon by israel is very consistent with its policy of intimidation that is the only policy that has been practiced by the so called only democracy in the middle east i was merley pointing out that the other side is also suffering like i said i m not an arab but if i was say a lebanese you bet i would defende my homeland against any invader by any means tell me then would you also fight the syrians in lebanon oh no of course not they would be your brothers and you would tell that you invited them avi
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re go hezbollah in article apr ncsu edu hernlem chess ncsu edu brad hernlem writes lebanese resistance forces detonated a bomb under an israeli occupation patrol in lebanese territory two days ago three soldiers were killed and two wounded in retaliation israeli and israeli backed forces wounded civilians by bombarding several lebanese villages ironically the israeli government justifies its occupation in lebanon by claiming that it is necessary to prevent such bombardments of israeli villages congratulations to the brave men of the lebanese resistance with every israeli son that you place in the grave you are underlining the moral bankruptcy of israel s occupation and drawing attention to the israeli government s policy of reckless disregard for civilian life brad hernlem hernlem chess ncsu edu ahhh of course israeli morality pales in the face of charming events like the string of plo run skyjackings in the mid s remember those twa jokes and not to forget the achille lauro and however many airline bombings they have committed not to mention bombings on the streets of israel it s gotten to a point where children are told not to go near any bags or containers whose origins they don t know because they could be bombs or last weeks katyusha rocket attack on northern israel by fatah those wonderful mainstream moderates with whom israel is attempting to negotiate let s not forget the fact that more palestinians are killed by palestinians than by israelis ahh yes those charming humanitarian death squads i ve actually seen a videotape of an interrogation dsee the documentary deadly currents very neutral and balanced seriously it was rather inquisition esque essentially to prove his loyalty to the cause of whichever group it was that was interogating him he had to turn in someone else or else face death in one of the many fun filled ways that the death squads love so much beatings dismemberment acid pouring melted plastic on the face of the guilty party and of course beheading always my favorite did you catch the photos in the washington post a while back the execution of a collaborator photos one palestinian leading another at gunpoint the collaborator on his knees the gun pointed at his temple the executioner standing on the corpse of the collaborator shouting about how this is what happens to collaborators wonderful justice system and lots of regard for human rights remember black september ok so they just tried to take over jordan big deal i m rambling now but are you getting what i m saying amir
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re enough freeman bashing was no free man propaganda machine freemanwith blood greetings from israel pgf cunixb cc columbia edu peter garfiel freeman writes peter i believe this is your most succinct post to date since you have nothing to say you say nothing it s brilliant did you think of this all by yourself marc some people are so narrow minded they can see through a crack in a door with both eyes my opinions should be yours my employer has no opinions
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re deriving pleasure from death brad hernlem writes congratulations to the brave men of the lebanese resistance with every israeli son that you place in the grave you are underlining the moral bankruptcy of israel s occupation and drawing attention to the israeli government s policy of reckless disregard for civilian life brad hernlem hernlem chess ncsu edu to which mark ira kaufman responds your delight in the death of human beings says more about you than anything that i could say mark were you one of the millions of americans cheering the slaughter of iraqi civilians by us forces in your comment could also apply to all of them by the way i do not applaud the killing of any human being including prisoners sentenced to death by our illustrious justice department peace marc some people are so narrow minded they can see through a crack in a door with both eyes my opinions should be yours my employer has no opinions
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re was go hezbollah stssdxb st unocal com dorin baru writes even the most extemist one sided jewish israeli postings with which i certainly disagree did not openly back plain murder you do the lebanese resistance you are talking about is a bunch of lebanese farmers who detonate bombs after work or is an organized entity of not only lebanese well trained mercenaries i do not know just curious i guess you also back the killings of hundreds of marines in beirut right what kind of resistance movement killed jewish attlets in munich you liked it didn t you you posted some other garbage before so at least you seem to be consistent dorin dorin let s not forget that the soldiers were killed not murdered the distinction is not trivial murder happens to innocent people not people whose line of work is to kill or be killed it just so happened that these soldiers in the line of duty were killed by the opposition and resistance is different from terrorism certainly the athletes in munich were victims of terrorists though some might call them freedom fighters their deaths cannot be compared to those of soldiers who are killed by resistance fighters don t forget that it was the french resistance to the nazi occupying forces which eventually succeeded in driving out the hostile occupiers in wwii diplomacy has not worked with israel and the lebanese people are tired of being occupied they are now turning to the only option they see as viable don t forget that it worked in driving out the us marc some people are so narrow minded they can see through a crack in a door with both eyes my opinions should be yours my employer has no opinions
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re was go hezbollah hernlem chess ncsu edu brad hernlem writes i just thought that i would make it clear in case you are not familiar with my past postings on this subject i do not condone attacks on civilians hezbollah and other lebanese resistance fighters are skilled at precision bombing of sla and israeli targets i find such methods to be far more restrained and responsible than the israeli method of shelling and bombing villages with the hope that a hezbollah member will be killed along with the civilians murdered i do not consider the killing of combatants to be murder soldiers are trained to die for their country three idf soldiers did their duty the other day these men need not have died if their government had kept them on israeli soil is there any israeli a civilian in your opinion now i do not condone myself bombing villages any kind of villages but you claim these are villages with civilians and iraelis claim they are camps filled with terrorists you claim that israelis shell the villages with the hope of finding a terrorist or so if they kill one fine if not too bad civilians die right i am not so sure as somebody wrote saddam hussein had no problems using civilians in disgusting manner and he also claimed civilians murdered let me ask you isn t there at least a slight chance that you not only and the question is very general no insult are doing a similar type of propaganda in respect to civilians in southern lebanon now a lot people who post here consider israeli soil kind of mediteranean sea how do you define israeli soil from what you say if you do not clearly recognize the state of israel you condone killing israelis anywhere dorin are you aware that the idf sent helicopters and gun boats up the coast of lebanon the other day and rocketted a palestinian refugee north of beirut perhaps i should ask you what qualifies a person for murder i do not know what was the pupose of the action you describe if it was to kill civilians i doubt i certainly do not condone it if civilians were killed i do not condone it that they are palestinian that they are children and may grow up to be terrorists that they are female and may give birth to little terrorists brad hernlem hernlem chess ncsu edu mr hernlem it was you not me who was showing a huge satisfaction for israelis human beings by most standards don t know about your standards killed if you ask me those questions i will have no problem answering not with a question as you did no nobody is qualified candidate for murder nothing justifies murder i have the feeling that you may be able yourself to make similar statements maybe after eliminating all israelis jews am i wrong now tell me did you also condone saddam s scuds on israeli soldiers in let s say tel aviv from what i understand a lot of palestineans cheered what does it show it does not qualify for freedom fighting to me but again i may be wrong and the jewish controlled media distorted the information and i am just an ignorant victim of the media like most of us dorin
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re was go hezbollah in article c ifh q news cso uiuc edu eshneken ux cso uiuc edu edward a shnekendorf writes what the hell do you know about israeli policy what gives you the fiat to look into the minds of israeli generals has this policy of intimidation been published somewhere for your information the actions taken by arabs specifically the plo were not uncommon in the lebanon campaign of my brain is full of shit at least i don t look into the minds of others and make israeli policy for them deleted i am not in the business of reading minds however in this case it would not be necessary israelis top leaders in the past and present always come across as arrogant with their tough talks trying to intimidate the arabs the way i see it israelis and arabs have not been able to achieve peace after almost years of fighting because of the following two major reasons arab governments are not really representative of their people currently most of their leaders are stupid and or not independent and or dictators israeli government is arrogant and none comprising
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heil hernlem in article apr ncsu edu hernlem chess ncsu edu brad hernlem writes lebanese resistance forces detonated a bomb under an israeli occupation patrol in lebanese territory two days ago three soldiers were killed and two wounded in retaliation israeli and israeli backed forces wounded civilians by bombarding several lebanese villages ironically the israeli government justifies its occupation in lebanon by claiming that it is necessary to prevent such bombardments of israeli villages congratulations to the brave men of the lebanese resistance with every israeli son that you place in the grave you are underlining the moral bankruptcy of israel s occupation and drawing attention to the israeli government s policy of reckless disregard for civilian life brad hernlem hernlem chess ncsu edu very nice three people are murdered and bradly is overjoyed when i hear about deaths in the middle east be it jewish or arab deaths i feel sadness and only hope that soon this all stops apparently my view point is not acceptable to people like you bradly hernlem you disgust me harry
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re turkey cyprus bosnia serbia greece armenia azeris from article apr iastate edu by tankut iastate edu sabri t atan well panos mr tamamidis the way you put it it is only the turks who bear the responsibility of the things happening today that is hard to believe for somebody trying to be objective when it comes to conflicts like our countries having you cannot blame one side only there always are bad guys on both sides what were you doing on anatolia after the ww anyway do you think it was your right to be there there were a couple millions of greeks living in asia minor until someone had to protect them if not us who i am not saying that conflicts started with that it is only not one side being the aggressive and the ither always suffering it is sad that we both still are not trying to compromise i remember the action of the turkish government by removing the visa requirement for greeks to come to turkey i thought it was a positive attempt to make the relations better compromise on what the invasion of cyprus the involment of turkey in greek politics the refusal of turkey to accept miles of territorial waters as stated by international law the properties of the greeks of konstantinople the ownership of the islands in the greek lake sorry aegean there are some things on which there can not be a compromise the greeks i mentioned who wouldn t talk to me are educated people they have never met me but they know i am bad person because i am from turkey politics is not my business and it is not the business of most of the turks when it comes to individuals why the hatred any person who supports the policies of the turkish goverment directly or indirecly is a bad person it is not your nationality that makes you bad it is your support of the actions of your goverment that make you bad people do not hate you because of who you are but because of what you are you are a supporter of the policies of the turkish goverment and as a such you must pay the price so that makes me think that there is some kind of brainwashing going on in greece after all why would an educated person treat every person from a nation the same way can you tell me about your history books and things you learn about greek turkish encounters during your schooling take it easy tankut atan tankut iastate edu achtung baby you do not need brainwashing to turn people against the turks just talk to greeks arabs slavs kurds and all other people who had the luck to be under turkish occupation they will talk to you about murders rapes distruction you do not learn about turks from history books you learn about them from people who experienced first hand turkish friendliness napoleon
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reasons was re was go hezbollah hossien amehdi writes i am not in the business of reading minds however in this case it would not be necessary israelis top leaders in the past and present always come across as arrogant with their tough talks trying to intimidate the arabs the way i see it israelis and arabs have not been able to achieve peace after almost years of fighting because of the following two major reasons arab governments are not really representative of their people currently most of their leaders are stupid and or not independent and or dictators israeli government is arrogant and none comprising it s not relevant whether i agree with you or not there is some reasonable thought in what you say here an i appreciate your point however i would make remarks you forgot about hate and this is not only at government level it s not only arab governments now about taugh talk and arrogance we are adults aren t we do you listen to tough talk of american politicians or switch the channel i would rather be intimidated by some dummy talking tough then by a bomb ready to blow under my seat in b dorin
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re enough freeman bashing was no free man propaganda machine freemanwith blood greetings from israel marc a afifi mafifi eis calstate edu wrote pgf cunixb cc columbia edu peter garfiel freeman writes peter i believe this is your most succinct post to date since you have nothing to say you say nothing it s brilliant did you think of this all by yourself marc some people are so narrow minded they can see through a crack in a door with both eyes my opinions should be yours my employer has no opinions an open letter to marc afifi dear marc i believe that you are wrong about mr freeman he has written in a style that raises the level of posts on this board if you just don t seem to get it i believe that it is more of a reflection of you and your abilities than of him his posts contain substance and and he defends his positions well having said this i would like to ask in general for people on this board to realize that if they don t agree with the substance of posts then they should respond to the substance or lack of of the posts rather than attack the author of the posts when one has to resort to attacking a poster rather than what he she has written one can see that that person does not have the ability to make a coherent argument concerning the post peace danny
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re mossad unchecked girls faint in masse in egypt in apr thunder mcrcim mcgill edu hasan mcrcim mcgill edu writes in article eldar sfu ca eldar fraser sfu ca danny eldar writes i just heard it on the radio cknw in vancouver bc girls are fainting in masse in egypt nobody knows why but the movement started in nothern egypt and spread throught all egypt i think that the mossad after the obvious involvement in wtc bombing tries to reestablish its reputation what better way than making egyptian schhol girls go bezerk maybe hassan will share the light on this i am happy to annouce tii s second positive identifiaction congragulations danny hasan as one who was born in quebec and worked in montreal i feel i must defend the reputation of mcgill university it is a fine old creditable institution of higher learning thus i can only assume that some under graduate student left his her terminal on line and the janitor has been getting access to it reb
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re how many israeli soldiers does it take to kill a yr old child well i tried not to get involved in this never ending talk but man i really got hot about this bullshit in article apr bernina ethz ch nadeem p igp ethz ch writes hakim abu ahmed cu cleveland freenet edu wrote in reply to hm cs brown edu s message zbib bnr ca sam zbib writes steel hal gnu ai mit edu nick steel writes q how many occupying israeli soldiers terrorists does it take to kill a year old native child a four two fasten his arms one shoots in the face and one writes up a false report making stupid and idiot jokes about soliders will not bring anything not mentioning peace or agreement i also know several tens of jokes about arabs palestinians but i do not post them to usenet anyway not to this newsgroup since i don t think i will achieve any target but making other parts furious and this is not my target if this is your target well that tells a lot about you can nick steel provide documentation for this alleged incident did you really think he is talking about something realistic harry you must be kidding this is not a single incident now this has become a daily life practice in gazza if you mean the killing of children by armed soldiers yeah well sometimes when cowards put their children and wives in the front line so their enemy cannot do anything well maybe in those cases you have no better thing to do to save your life than shooting and if parents want their children alive i think it would be better that before they get out to throw stones molotov botlles or when they come to kill soliders to keep their children in the houses if you are objecting the number of occupying israeli soldiers terrorists or the way they do it then look in the dictionary at the word terrorism it says nu the use of threats of violence and violence esp for political purposes it sounds more like your guys i caan assure you that they do worse than that just as yeah well i guess you were in there and you know it all example children were killed this month of ramadhan two of them by military vehicules an other similar incident by vehicule was the one of feb ramadhan where thee military truck on purpose hit a passenger where from do you know that it was on purpose personally i didn t hear about this case although i don t deny it but how can anybody besides the person itself can say it was on purpose car where the victims were a year girl safa sail bisharat and saamud riyad a weeks old babygirl the oldd raajij rouhy yeah sure the truck driver looked in the car with his zionist equipment of detecting palestinian children and then he thought to himself hey there is a year and weeks girls in the car why won t i make an accident and kill the enemy maximum i will die too in the crash but what do i care hakim actually if can remember correctly was it not reported and even on camera some time during the israeli invasion of lebanon or when the itifada began that cnn caught regular uniformed israeli soldiers breaking the arms of some arab youngsters in a very professional and brutal manner someone please give full details if they can remember this is one of the few well it was about years ago in the intifada the fact that you can t remember the time prooves how much do you care about it i do not think that what the soliders did was correct but i will not agree that they were breaking their arms i saw that film and unlike in the usa it was broadcasted entirely not long ago in a talk show and at the end the arm broken guys got up and walked and used their arms very good they guy who did it was interviewed and he said he did it because the terrorist or whatever he was refused to take his orders and spitted in his face what ammount of truth exist in this statement i cannot tell you because i wasn t there but the guy who did it was in prison if it makes you any good occassions on which such a scene has been transmitted to the west and in the usa it caused uproar and was one of the factors that has significantly changed the preception of the israeli army s role in the mid east no it didn t the israeli army is still the most important army in the midlle east it is still the only human army as much as an army can be human to any american who will claim the opposite i can only remember the cnn broadcasting of the american solider who beat a somalian boy it was very cruel to see but i won t say because of this that the american army is cruel so there is proof for you it is obvious that is a systematic policy of the israelis which must be occurring on a massive scale behind the scenes some kind of proof obvious where from if you say it is behind the scenes how do you know about it nadeem i just wanted to show how much garbadge one can say without knowing anything about what he says and living a life far away from the place he talks about livian segal o vm cms jhsegall weizmann weizmann ac il unix jhsegal wiscon weizmann ac il
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re turkey cyprus bosnia serbia greece armenia azeris finaid auvm american edu writes mr tamamidis before repling your claims i suggest you be kind to individuals who are trying to make some points abouts human rights discriminations and unequal treatment of turkish minority in greece i want the world know how bad you treat these people you will deny anything i say but it does not make any difrence because i will write things that i saw with my eyes you prove yourself prejudice by saying free insurance school etc do you greeks only give these things to turkish minority or everybody has rights to get them your words even discriminate these people you think that you are giving big favor to these people by giving these thing that in reality they get nothing no i do not thing we are doing them a favor i have simply stated that they are not treated as a second class citizens that was my point i fail to see how my words show discrimination and what do you mean that they do not get nothing is for example helth insurance food and tuition nothing if you do not know unhuman practices that are being conducted by the government of the greece i suggest that you investigate to see the facts then we can discuss about the most basic human rights like fredom of religion fredom of press of turkish minority ethnic cleansing of all turks in greece fredom of right to have property without government intervention fredom of right to vote to choose your community leaders how greek government encourages people to destroy religious places houses farms schools for turkish minority then forcing them to go to turkey without anything with them i m sorry but i cannot see any logical order in the above argument before i conclude my writing let me point out how greeks are treated in turkey we do not consider them greek minority instead we consider a part of our society what part exactly is this one the people cannot even sell their property if they want to leave turkey the patriarch could not get a permision to renovate some buildings for decades it needed a special agreement between the two goverments for this talk about a part of the society why has the size of the greek community reduced to old people and priests then there is no difference among people in turkey yeah you bet all big businesses belong to greeks in turkey and we are proud to have them unlike the greece which tries to destroy turkish minority we encourage all minorities in turkey to be a part of turkish society you are far off from the reality aykut atalay atakan panos tamamidis
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turkish government agents on usenet lie through their teeth in revision of history zuma uucp as posted by turkish government agents under the guise of sera zuma uucp serdar argic lie in response to article apr urartu sdpa org hla urartu sdpa org and scribed orhan gunduz is blown up gunduz receives an ultimatum either he gives up his honorary position or he will be executed he refuses responsibility is claimed by jcag and sdpa may cambridge massachusetts orhan gunduz the turkish honorary consul in boston would not bow to the armenian terrorist ultimatum that he give up his title of honorary consul now he is attacked and murdered in cold blood president reagan orders an all out manhunt to no avail an eye witness who gave a description of the murderer is shot down he survives but falls silent one of the most revolting triumphs in the senseless mindless history of armenian terrorism such a murder brings absolutely nothing except an ego boost for the murderer within the armenian terrorist underworld which is already wallowing in self satisfaction were you involved in the murder of sarik ariyak december sydney two nazi armenians massacre sarik ariyak and his bodyguard engin sever jcag and sdpa claim responsibility mr turkish governmental agent prove that the sdpa even existed in or go ahead provide us the newspaper accounts of the assassinations and show us the letters sdpa the turkish government is good at excising text from their references let s see how good thay are at adding text to verifiable newspaper accounts the turkish government can t support any of their anti armenian claims as typified in the above scribed garbage that government continues to make false and libelous charges for they have no recourse left after having made fools out of through their attempt at a systematic campaign at denying and covering up the turkish genocide of the armenians just like a dog barking at a moving bus it barks jumps yells until the bus stops at which point it just walks away such will be with this posting turkish agents level the most ridiculous charges and when brought to answer they are silent like the dog after the bus stops the turkish government feels it can funnel a heightened state of ultra nationalism existing in turkey today onto usenet and convince people via its revisionist myopic and incidental view of themselves and their place in the world the resulting inability to address armenian and greek refutations of turkey s re write of history is to refer to me as a terrorist and worse claim as part of the record i took responsibility for the murder of people what a pack of raging fools blinded by anti armenian fascism it s too bad the socialization policies of the republic of turkey requires it to always find non turks to de humanize such will be their downfall david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org how do we explain turkish troops on s d p a center for regional studies the armenian border when we can t p o box even explain cambridge ma turkish mp march
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re turkey cyprus bosnia serbia greece armenia azeris in article c jhj f j news cso uiuc edu ptg uxa cso uiuc edu panos tamamidis writes stuff deleted i am not saying that conflicts started with that it is only not one side being the aggressive and the ither always suffering it is sad that we both still are not trying to compromise i remember the action of the turkish government by removing the visa requirement for greeks to come to turkey i thought it was a positive attempt to make the relations better i thought it was a smart move to receive more money from greek tourists i bet that this week there should be about tourists from greece in turkey each one will leave at least so go and figure what this means to your economy if you had kept the visa requirement how many greeks would bother to visit turkey smart indeed if what you re saying is true greeks who visit are happy the turkish merchants are happy who is harmed no one so not only was it a smart move it was also a good move for it adds to the happiness of greeks per week and however many turkish merchants they interact with one simple move in the paperwork arena lotsa happy people of both nationalities just and observation cheers bm stuff deleted
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re how many israeli soldiers does it take to kill a yr old child in article qhv bagel cs huji ac il ranen falafel cs huji ac il ranen goren writes q how many nick steel s does it take to twist any truth around a only one and thank god there s only one ranen absolutely not true there are lots of them livian segal o vm cms jhsegall weizmann weizmann ac il unix jhsegal wiscon weizmann ac il
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pr campaign against iran pbs frontline there have been a number of articles on the pbs frontline program about iranian bomb here is my on this and related subjects one is curious to know the real reasons behind this and related public relations campaign about iran in recent months these include attempts to implicate iran in the bombing of the new york trade center despite great efforts in this direction they have not succeeded in this they however have indirectly created the impression that iran is behind the rise of fundamentalist islamic movements and thus are indirectly implicated in this matter public statements by the secretary of state christoffer and other official sources regarding iran being a terrorist and outlaw state and finally the recent broadcast of the frontline program i suspect that this pr campaign against iran will continue and perhaps intensify why this increased pressure on iran a number of factors may have been behind this these include the rise of islamic movements in north africa and radical hamas movement in the israeli occupied territories this movement is basically anti western and is not necessarily fueled by iran the cause for accelerated pace of this movement is probably the gulf war which sought to return colonial shieks and amirs to their throne in the name of democracy and freedom also the obvious support of algerian military coup against the democratically elected algerian islamic front which clearly exposed the democracy myth a further cause of this may be the daily broadcast of the news on the slaughter of bosnian moslems possible future implications of this movement in saudi arabia and other us client states and endangerment of the cheap oil sources from this region a need to create an enemy as an excuse for huge defense expenditures this has become necessary after the demise of soveit union the recent pr campaign against iran however seems to be directed from israel rather than washington there is no fundamental conflict of interest between iran and the us and in my opinion it is in the interest of both countries to affect reestablishment of normal and friendly relations this may have a moderating effect on the rise of radical movements within the islamic world and iran jamshid
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re israeli expansion lust in a previous article hasan mcrcim mcgill edu m hasan alhafez says so the wars of karama and were all started by arabs the wars of were definitely started by the arabs the war in was instigated by the arabs who continually murdered israeli children with their rocket attacks israel was only trying to stop this last what the heck are you talking about with karama there was no war in steve internet aa freenet carleton ca fidonet mossad qube ocunix on ca my opinions are not associated with anything including my head
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re israeli expansion lust in a previous article zbib bnr ca sam zbib says imho it does not really matter who started any individual battle within the arabs isreal war context the real question is who what started the war does anyone have any doubts it was the creation of israel on arab land where the hell do you get off calling it arab land jews have been living there for a long time jews didn t just start arriving in they ve been living there for thousands of years except for periods when they were expelled but they always returned home steve internet aa freenet carleton ca fidonet mossad qube ocunix on ca my opinions are not associated with anything including my head
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dir yassin was re no free man propaganda machine freeman with blood greetings from israel in article apr thunder mcrcim mcgill edu hasan mcrcim mcgill edu writes check menahem begin dairies published book you ll find accounts of the massacres there including deir yassen though with the numbers of massacred men children and women are greatly minimized as per request of hasan from the revolt by menachem begin dell publishing ny pp apart from the military aspect there is a moral aspect to the story of dir yassin at that village whose name was publicized throughout the world both sides suffered heavy casualties we had four killed and nearly forty wounded the number of casualties was nearly forty percent of the total number of the attackers the arab troops suffered casualties neraly three times as heavy the fighting was thus very severe yet the hostile propaganda disseminated throughout the world deliberately ignored the fact that the civilian population of dir yassin was actually given a warning by us before the battle began one of our tenders carrying a loud speaker was stationed at the entrance to the village and it exhorted in arabic all women children and aged to leave their houses and to take shelter on the slopes of the hill by giving this humane warning our fighters threw away the element of complete surprise and thus increased their own risk in the ensuing battle a substantial number of the inhabitants obeyed the warning and they were unhurt a few did not leave their stone houses perhaps because of the confusion the fire of the enemy was murderous to which the number of our casualties bears eloquent testimony our men were compelled to fight for every house to overcome the enemy they used large numbers of hand grenades and the civilians who had disregarded our warnings suffered inevitable casualties the education which we gave our soldiers throughout the years of revolt was based on the observance of the traditional laws of war we never broke them unless the enemy first did so and thus forced us in accordance with the accepted custom of war to apply reprisals i am convinced too that our officers and men wished to avoid a single unnecessary casualty in the dir yassin battle but those who throw stones of denunciation at the conquerors of dir yassin would do well not to don the cloak of hypocrisy in connection with the capture of dir yassin the jewish agency found it necessary to send a letter of apology to abdullah whom mr ben gurion at a moment of great political emotion called the wise ruler who seeks the good of his people and this country the wise ruler whose mercenary forces demolished gush etzion and flung the bodies of its heroic defenders to birds of prey replied with feudal superciliousness he rejected the apology and replied that the jews were all to blame and that he did not believe in the existence of dissidents throughout the arab world and the world at large a wave of lying propaganda was let loose about jewish attrocities the enemy propaganda was designed to besmirch our name in the result it helped us panic overwhelmed the arabs of eretz israel kolonia village which had previously repulsed every attack of the haganah was evacuated overnight and fell without further fighting beit iksa was also evacuated these two places overlooked the main road and their fall together with the capture of kastel by the haganah made it possible to keep open the road to jerusalem in the rest of the country too the arabs began to flee in terror even before they clashed with jewish forces not what happened at dir yassin but what was invented about dir yassin helped to carve the way to our decisive victories on the battlefield the legend of dir yassin helped us in particular in the saving of tiberias and the conquest of haifa a footnote from the revolt pp to counteract the loss of dir yassin a village of strategic importance arab headquarters at ramallah broadcast a crude atrocity story alleging a massacre by irgun troops of women and children in the village certain jewish officials fearing the irgun men as political rivals seized upon this arab gruel propaganda to smear the irgun an eminent rabbi was induced to reprimand the irgun before he had time to sift the truth out of evil however good came this arab propaganda spread a legend of terror amongst arabs and arab troops who were seized with panic at the mention of irgun soldiers the legend was worth half a dozen battalions to the forces of israel the dir yassin massacre lie is still propagated by jew haters all over the world in reference to denunciation of dir yassin by fellow jews
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re from israeli press madness this post has all the earmarks of a form program where the user types in a nationality or ethnicity and it fills it in in certain places in the story if this is true i condemn it if it s a fabrication then the posters have horrible morals and should be despised by everyone on tpm who values truth jesse
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center for anit israel propaganda the center for policy research writes from the israeli press hadashot march the israeli police department announced on the evening of friday march that it is calling upon jewish israeli citizens with gun permits to carry them at all times so as to contribute to their security and that of their surroundings considering all the murders of innocent israelis at the hands of arab death merchants i see nothing wrong with the advice ha aretz march yehoshua matza likud chair of the knesset interior committee stated that he intends to demand that the police department make it clear to the public that anyone who wounds or kills non jewish terrorists will not be put on trial as usual the bias of the center for policy research echoes through this newsgroup here we have an enraged likudnik who is venting his spleen and you portray it as if this is going to become policy you don t say what the response to matza s suggestion was do do not mention whether he was refering to terrorists caught in the act which could be a clear cut case of self defence would you care to elaborate on this or was this all you wanted to say on the matter why don t you give up this center for policy research crap and just post your biases without trying to legitimize them with a pompous name ha aretz march today a private security firm and units from the idf southern command will begin installation of four magnetic gates in the gaza strip as an additional stage in the upgrading of security measures in the strip the gates will aid in the searching of non jewish gaza residents as they leave for work in israel they can be used to reveal the presence of knives axes weapons and other sharp objects in addition to the gates which will be operated by a private civilian company large quantities of magnetic card reading devices are being brought to the inspection points to facilitate the reading of the magnetic cards these non jewish workers must carry a laudable precaution every single thing you post about israel is posted to portray israel as negatively as you can deliberate omissions are an integral part of the shtick and it s not only the incidents that you do not mention but even the stories you do post are fraught with omissions which change the entire meaning the absurdity of your respectable name cannot hide your bias in your effort to portray israel in an unfavorable light you have accomplished nothing except to prove that a respectable sounding label like the center for policy research is nothing but a smoke screen for someone with a heavily biased attitude against israel and the need to vent it you this center for policy research stuff is nonsense
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re from israeli press madness in article c n z dq murdoch acc virginia edu jar e faraday clas virginia edu virginia s gentleman writes this post has all the earmarks of a form program where the user types in a nationality or ethnicity and it fills it in in certain places in the story if this is true i condemn it if it s a fabrication then the posters have horrible morals and should be despised by everyone on tpm who values truth jesse agreed harry
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re armenia says it could shoot down turkish planes in article apr urartu sdpa org dbd urartu sdpa org david davidian writes armenia says it could shoot down turkish planes ermenistan kasiniyor let me translate for everyone else before the public traslation service gets into it armenia is getting itchy esin
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center for anti israel propaganda the center for policy research writes from the israeli press hadashot march the israeli police department announced on the evening of friday march that it is calling upon jewish israeli citizens with gun permits to carry them at all times so as to contribute to their security and that of their surroundings considering all the murders of innocent israelis at the hands of arab death merchants i see nothing wrong with the advice ha aretz march yehoshua matza likud chair of the knesset interior committee stated that he intends to demand that the police department make it clear to the public that anyone who wounds or kills non jewish terrorists will not be put on trial as usual the bias of the center for policy research echoes through this newsgroup here we have an enraged likudnik who is venting his spleen and you portray it as if this is going to become policy you don t say what the response to matza s suggestion was do do not mention whether he was refering to terrorists caught in the act which could be a clear cut case of self defence would you care to elaborate on this or was this all you wanted to say on the matter why don t you give up this center for policy research crap and just post your biases without trying to legitimize them with a pompous name ha aretz march today a private security firm and units from the idf southern command will begin installation of four magnetic gates in the gaza strip as an additional stage in the upgrading of security measures in the strip the gates will aid in the searching of non jewish gaza residents as they leave for work in israel they can be used to reveal the presence of knives axes weapons and other sharp objects in addition to the gates which will be operated by a private civilian company large quantities of magnetic card reading devices are being brought to the inspection points to facilitate the reading of the magnetic cards these non jewish workers must carry a laudable precaution every single thing you post about israel is posted to portray israel as negatively as you can deliberate omissions are an integral part of the shtick and it s not only the incidents that you do not mention but even the stories you do post are fraught with omissions which change the entire meaning the absurdity of your respectable name cannot hide your bias in your effort to portray israel in an unfavorable light you have accomplished nothing except to prove that a respectable sounding label like the center for policy research is nothing but a smoke screen for someone with a heavily biased attitude against israel and the need to vent it this center for policy research stuff is nonsense
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re public service translation no in article apr urartu sdpa org dbd urartu sdpa org david davidian writes in article hydra gatech edu gt a prism gatech edu gt a gt a kaan timucin wrote kaan who the hell is this guy david davidian i think he talks too much i am your alter ego kaan yo david you would better shut the f up o k no its not ok what are you going to do come and get me maybe he will maybe he is working for the secret turkish service you never know kaan i don t like your attitute you are full of lies and shit in the united states we refer to it as freedom of speech if you don t like no it is still called you are full of shit even in the us kaan didn t you hear the saying don t mess with a turc no why do you ask what are you going to do are you going to submit me to bodily harm are you going to kill me are you going to torture me well now you have don t worry turks do not turn to terrorist actions like armenians have so you can be sure that you will not be killed however i do not know about the torture part timucin sounds like a tough guy so watch out kaan see ya in hell wrong again kaan timucin all i did was to translate a few lines from turkish into english if it was so embarrassing in turkish it shouldn t have been written in the first place don t kill the messenger if you are going to translate you have to do it consistently if you selectively translate things to serve your ugly purpose people get pisssssssssed offfffff in ottoman times messengers were usually killed by cutting their heads off and sending it back to their country but ottoman empire no longer exists darn esin david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org how do we explain turkish troops on s d p a center for regional studies the armenian border when we can t p o box even explain cambridge ma turkish mp march
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re how many israeli soldiers does it take to kill a yr old child in a previous article steel hal gnu ai mit edu nick steel says q how many occupying israeli soldiers terrorists does it take to kill a year old native child a four two fasten his arms one shoots in the face and one writes up a false report this newsgroup is for intelligent discussion i want you to either smarten up and stop this bullshit posting or get the fuck out of my face and this net steve internet aa freenet carleton ca fidonet mossad qube ocunix on ca my opinions are not associated with anything including my head
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re public service translation no david posts a good translation of a post by suat kinikliouglu most of the original post elided kk vatan sevgisi ruhlari kirden kurtaran en kuvvetli ruzgardir in translation as a public service most of the translation elided the love of the fatherland is the strongest of all winds cleansing filth off souls i think this part of the translation is questionable although i think the original quote is plain silly you made it sound as if it is coming from a neo nazi youth for example turks talk of a motherland not a germanic fatherland why filth instead of dirt the indeterminacy of translation is a well known problem so one may have to fudge but with some care of course is the following an equally valid translation the love of one s country is the strongest wind to cleanse one s soul see my point nevertheless i think you translate well oz willard van orman quine word and object mit press cambridge mass
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re was go hezbollah in article apr ncsu edu hernlem chess ncsu edu brad hernlem writes in article bcf a news service uci edu tclock orion oac uci edu tim clock writes assuming also come on brad if we are going to get anywhere in this or any discussion it doesn t help to bring up elements i never addressed nor commented on in any way i made no comment on who is right or who is wrong only that civilians are being used as cover and that having been placed in between the israelis and the guerillas they will be injured as both parties continue their fight pardon me tim but i do not see how it can be possible for the idf to fail to detect the presence of those responsible for planting the bomb which killed the three idf troops and then later know the exact number and whereabouts of all of them several villages were shelled how could the idf possibly have known that there were guerrillas in each of the targetted villages you see it was an arbitrary act of retaliation i will again repeat my statement i do not condone these indiscriminate israeli acts nor have i ever if the villagers do not know who these guerillas are which you stated earlier how do you expect the israelis to know it is very difficult to identify who they are this is why the guerillas prefer to lose themselves in the general population by dressing the same acting the same etc the host arab state did little nothing to try and stop these attacks from its side of the border with israel the problem tim is that the original reason for the invasion was palestinian attacks on israel not lebanese attacks i agree but because lebanon was either unwilling or unable to stop these attacks from its territory should israel simply sit quietly and accept its situation israel asked the lebanese government over and over to control this third party state within lebanese territory and the attacks kept occuring at what point does israel or any state have the right to do something itself to stop such attacks never while the major armaments those allowing people to wage civil wars have been removed the weapons needed to cross border attacks still remain to some extent rocket attacks still continue and commando raids only require a few easily concealed weapons and a refined disregard for human life yours of that of others such attacks also continue yes i am afraid that what you say is true but that still does not justify occupying your neighbor s land israel must resolve its disputes with the native palestinians if it wants peace from such attacks it is also the responsibility of any state to not allow any outside party to use its territory for attacks on a neighboring state if angola had the power and south africa refused or couldn t stop anti angolan guerillas based on sa soil from attacking angola and south africa refused to have un troops stationed on its territory between it and angola would angola be justified in entering sa if not are you saying that angola had to accept the situation do nothing and absorb the attacks bat guano the situation you call for existed in the s and attacks were commonplace not true lebanese were not attacking israel in the s with a strong lebanese government free from syrian and israeli interference i believe that the border could be adequately patrolled the palestinian heavy weapons have been siezed in past years and i do not see as significant a threat as once existed i refered above at all times to the palestinian attacks on israel from lebanese soil not to lebanese attacks on israel one hopes that a lebanese government will be strong enough to patrol its border but there is no reason to believe it will be any stronger what has changed is that the plo was largely driven out of lebanon not by the lebanese not by syria and that is by far the most important making it easier to control future palestinian attacks from lebanese soil that change was brought about by israeli action the plo would never have been ejected by lebanese arab state or un actions please tim don t fall into the trap of treating lebanese and palestinians as all part of the same group there are too many who think all arabs or all muslims are the same too many times i have seen people support the bombing of palestinian camps in retaliation for an idf death at the hands of the lebanese resistance or the shelling of lebanese villages in retaliation for a palestinian attack i fully recognize that the lebanese do not want to be used by either side and have been and continue to be but the most fundamental issue is that if a state cannot control its borders and make real efforts to do so it should expect others to do it for them hopefully that other will be the un but it is as we see in its cowardice regarding bosnia weak tim
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re was go hezbollah hernlem chess ncsu edu brad hernlem writes tell me tim what are these guerillas doing wrong assuming that they are using civilians for cover are they not killing soldiers in their country so it s okay to use civilians for cover if you re attacking soldiers in your country of course many of those attacking claim that they aren t lebanese so it s not their country got it i think hmm this is confusing could you perhaps repeat your rules explaining exactly when it is permissible to use civilians as shields also please explain under what conditions it is permissible for soldiers to defend themselves also please explain the particular rules that make it okay for terrorists to launch missiles from lebanon against israeli civilians but not okay for the israelis to try to defend themselves against those missiles alan h stein astein israel nysernet org
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re from israeli press madness in article igc apc org center for policy research cpr igc apc org writes from center for policy research cpr subject from israeli press madness written pm apr by cpr igc apc org in igc mideast forum from israeli press madness from the israeli press paper zman tel aviv tel aviv s time friday local tel aviv s paper affiliated with maariv date february journalist guy ehrlich subject interview with soldiers who served in the duvdevan cherry units which disguise themselves as arabs and operate within the occupied territories excerpts from the article a lot has been written about the units who disguise themselves as arabs things good and bad some of the falsehoods but the most important problem of those units has been hardly dealt with it is that everyone who serves in the cherry after a time goes in one way or another insane gee i d better tell this to the mental health branch of the israeli army medical corps where would we be without you davidson a man who said this who will here be called danny his full name is known to the editors served in the cherry after his discharge from the army he works as delivery boy his pal who will here be called dudu was also serving in the cherry and is now about to depart for a round the world tour they both look no different from average israeli youngsters freshly discharged from conscript service but in their souls one can notice something completely different it was not easy for them to come out with disclosures about what happened to them and they think that to most of their fellows from the cherry it woundn t be easy either yet after they began to talk it was nearly impossible to make them stop talking the following article will contain all the horror stories recounted with an appalling openness a short time ago i was in command of a veteran team in which some of the fellows applied for release from the cherry we called such soldiers h i hit by the intifada under my command was a soldier who talked to himself non stop which is a common phenomenon in the cherry i sent him to a psychiatrist but why i should talk about others when i myself feel quite insane on fridays when i come home my parents know i cannot be talked to until i go to the beach surf a little calm down and return the keys of my father s car must be ready for in advance so that i can go there i they dare talk to me before or whenever i don t want them to talk to me i just grab a chair and smash it instantly i know it is my nerve smashing chairs all the time and then running away from home to the car and to the beach only there i become normal another friday i was eating a lunch prepared by my mother it was an omelette of sorts she took the risk of sitting next to me and talking to me i then told my mother about an event which was still fresh in my mind i told her how i shot an arab and how exactly his wound looked like when i went to inspect it she began to laugh hysterically i wanted her to cry and she dared laugh straight in my face instead so i told her how my pal had made a mincemeat of the two arabs who were preparing the molotov cocktails he shot them down hitting them beautifully exactly as they deserved one bullet had set a molotov cocktail on fire with the effect that the arab was burning all over just beautifully i was delighted to see it my pal fired three bullets two at the arab with the molotov cocktail and the third at his chum it hit him straight in his ass we both felt that we d pulled off something next i told my mother how another pal of mine split open the guts in the belly of another arab and how all of us ran toward that spot to take a look i reached the spot first and then that arab blood gushing forth from his body spits at me i yelled shut up and he dared talk back to me in hebrew so i just laughed straight in his face i am usually laughing when i stare at something convulsing right before my eyes then i told him all right wait a moment i left him in order to take a look at another wounded arab i asked a soldier if that arab could be saved if the bleeding from his artery could be stopped with the help of a stone of something else like that i keep telling all this to my mother with details and she keeps laughing straight into my face this infuriated me i got very angry because i felt i was becoming mad so i stopped eating seized the plate with he omelette and some trimmings still on and at once threw it over her head only then she stopped laughing at first she didn t know what to say but i must tell you of a still other madness which falls upon us frequently i went with a friend to practice shooting on a field a gull appeared right in the middle of the field my friend shot it at once then we noticed four deer standing high up on the sigh four deer in tel aviv well this is probably as accurate as the rest of this fantasy hill above us my friend at once aimed at one of them and shot it we enjoyed the sight of it falling down the rock we shot down two deer more and went to take a look when we climbed the rocks we saw a young deer badly wounded by our bullet but still trying to such some milk from its already dead mother we carefully inspected two paths covered by blood and chunks of torn flesh of the two deer we had hit we were just delighted by that sight we had hit em so good then we decided to kill the young deer too so as spare it further suffering i approached took out my revolver and shot him in the head several times from a very short distance when you shoot straight at the head you actually see the bullets sinking in but my fifth bullet made its brains fall outside onto the ground with the effect of splattering lots of blood straight on us this made us feel cured of the spurt of our madness standing there soaked with blood we felt we were like beasts of prey we couldn t explain what had happened to us we were almost in tears while walking down from that hill and we felt the whole day very badly we always go back to places we carried out assignments in this is why we can see them when you see a guy you disabled may be for the rest of his life you feel you got power you feel godlike of sorts both danny and dudu contemplate at least at this moment studying the acting dudu is not willing to work in any security linked occupation danny feels the exact opposite why shouldn t i take advantage of the skills i have mastered so well why shouldn t i earn for each chopped head i would deliver while being a mercenary in south africa this kind of job suits me perfectly i have no human emotions any more if i get a reasonable salary i will have no problem to board a plane to bosnia in order to fight there transl by israel shahak yisrael shahak the crackpot chemist figures i often see him in the rechavia jerusalem post office a really sad figure actually i feel sorry for him he was in a concentration camp during the holocaust and it must have affected him deeply josh backon vms huji ac il
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re from israeli press torture in article igc apc org center for policy research cpr igc apc org writes from center for policy research cpr subject from israeli press torture written pm apr by cpr igc apc org in igc mideast forum from israeli press torture from the israeli press newspaper ma ariv date december author avi raz subject torture sigh farwell la donchin e the truth will out interrogative polygraphy lie detection with event related brain potentials psychophysiology the research reported here was supported in part by contract number f with the central intelligence agency preliminary reports were presented at the and meetings of the society for psychophysiological research donchin happens to be an israeli do you really think that israel needs something as primitive as torture when it has this as well as something brought over by a russian mathematician from the lenningrad military hospital in factor analysis of multiple unit activity of the brain surely you jest when israel sics trained dogs on arab prisoners the way it s commonly done on prison farms in mississippi or alabama then you have a right to protest against torture when israeli security personnel beat arab prisoners the way chicago police do then you have a right to complain since it does not practice physical torture in any way kindly refrain from using this word josh backon vms huji ac il title of article moderate physical pressure several times in the course of the long hours in the interrogation room in tulkarm prison during which he says he was humiliated beaten and tortured omar daoud jaber heard his interrogator a shabak agent captain louis chatting on the phone with his wife at those moments omar said i felt that he was like a humanbeing but right after he finished talking he would be beat me and say you listened to the conversation and enjoyed yourself and i understood that he was not really a human being in late october after days in detention at tulkarm prison omar jaber was released without charges among the jews as among the arabs there are good people and bad people he said after his release but there in tulkarm in the interrogations rooms you cannot find even one person about whom you can say that he is a human being although he left the detention installation in tulkarm bruised and humiliated i sat at home for ten days my hands shook from nerves one may consider omar jaber lucky he got out not so healthy but entire and even ultimately returned to normal functioning at the small solar heater plant he owns in contrast hassan bader al zbeidi for example was released seven weeks ago from detention in tulkarm after days in the shabak wing cut off from his surroundings he doesn t speak or react mustafa barakat aged only who was arrested in early august and was brought to the tulkarm detention installation left it one day later dead we have recently received an especially large number of testimonies concerning cruel tortures employed at the tulkarm detention installation by shabak interrogators noted dr niv gordon director of the association of israel and palestinian physicians for human rights the right to complain against the shabak does not excite anan saber makhlouf a year old student in fact he was extremely fearful about describing the manner in which he was interrogated in tulkarm prison in case the publication in the paper would return him to detention and lead to renewed mistreatment follow description of tortures omar a tall bearded man was silent i do not want to talk about it he finally said quietly some time later embarrased and ashamed he spoke sometimes he beats you and beats you until you ll kiss his hand and not only his hand even the hands of another interrogator and another whom he calls into the room and the last interrogator says now you are kissing my hand and later if i want you will kiss my ass these things take place in an israeli army detention installation located within the military government compound in tulkarm west bank but the shabak interrogation wing is a separate kingdom in early march the idf allowed representatives of b tselem the israeli information center for human rights in the territories to visit tulkarm prison but denied them access to the interrogation wing the interrogation wing is shabak property being solely under shabak responsibility all interrogations are performed by it said lieutnant sharon sho an the commander of the installation according to the internal report written by b tselem member yuval ginbar following the visit major david pe er governing commander of the prison system in the central command was quoted in the report there is an ethical problem here no one can enter the interrogation wing transl by i shahak
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its entire muslim population had been slaughtered by the armenians source men are like that by leonard ramsden hartill the bobbs merrill company indianapolis pages memoirs of an armenian officer who participated in the genocide of million muslim people p first paragraph the tartar section of the town no longer existed except as a pile of ruins it had been destroyed and its inhabitants slaughtered the same fate befell the tartar section of khankandi p second paragraph many of our men had served in the russian army and were trained soldiers we armenians were rich and possessed arms tartars had never received military training they were poor and possessed few arms beyond knives shortly after the killing of the tartars in our village the revolution in russia was suppressed serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
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armenian way of slaughtering a twelve year old muslim girl source world alive a personal story by robert dunn crown publishers inc new york memoirs of an american officer who witnessed the armenian genocide of million muslim people p at length all shooting petered out i got on my horse and rode down toward djul it burned still but little flame showed now the way was steep and tough through dense scrub finally on flatter ground i came out suddenly through alders on smoldering houses across trampled wheat my brothers in arms were leading off animals several calves and a lamb p fourth paragraph corpses came next the first a pretty child with straight black hair large eyes she looked about twelve years old she lay in some stubble where meal lay scattered from the sack she d been toting the bayonet had gone through her back i judged for blood around was scant between the breasts one clot too small for a bullet wound crusted her homespun dress the next was a boy of ten or less in rawhide jacket and knee pants he lay face down in the path by several huts one arm reached out to the pewter bowl he d carried now upset upon its dough steel had jabbed just below his neck into the spine there were grownups too i saw as i led the sorrel around djul was empty of the living till i looked up to see beside me dro s german speaking colonel he said all tartars who had not escaped were dead serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
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cold blooded slaughter of muslim women and children by armenians in article apr news columbia edu lasner watsun cc columbia edu charles lasner writes hmm maybe i ll go rent midnight express tonight i haven t seen that scene in awhile i have to savor the moment all over again well does it change the fact that during the period of to the fascist x soviet armenian government ordered incited assisted and participated in the genocide of million muslim people because of race religion and national origin as in the past in turkiye and today in azerbaijan for utopic and idiotic causes the armenians brought havoc to their neighbors a short sighted and misplaced nationalistic fervor with a wrong agenda and anachronistic methods the armenians continue to become pernicious for the region as usual they will be treated accordingly by their neighbors nagorno karabag is a mountainous enclave that lies completely within azerbaijan with no border or history whatsoever connected to x soviet armenia besides the geographical aspect nagorno karabag is the historic homeland and the cradle of the artistic and literary heritage of azerbaijan which renders the armenian claims preposterous even lunatic and we still demand that the x soviet armenian government as the heirs of the armenian dictatorship recognize the turkish genocide that x soviet armenia return the historic homeland to the turkish and kurdish people that the x soviet armenian government make material reparations for their heinous and unspeakable crime to the victims of the turkish genocide that all world governments officially recognize the turkish genocide and turkish territorial rights and refuse to succumb to all armenian political pressure the awareness of the turkish people of the necessity of solidarity in the efforts to pursue the turkish cause is seen by the victims of the first genocide of the th century as a positive step now what would you do source the sunday times march a british weekly written by thomas goltz from agdam azerbaijan armenian soldiers massacre hundreds of fleeing families the spiralling violence gripping the outer republics of the former soviet union gained new impetus yesterday with cold blooded slaughter of hundreds of women and children in war racked nagorno karabakh survivors reported that armenian soldiers shot and bayoneted more than azeris many of them women and children who were fleeing an attack on their town hundreds possibly thousands were missing and feared dead the attackers killed most of the soldiers and volunteers defending the women and children they then turned their guns on the terrified refugees the few survivors later described what happened that s when the real slaughter began said azer hajiev one of three soldiers to survive the armenians just shot and shot and then they came in and started carving up people with their bayonets and knives they were shooting shooting shooting echoed rasia aslanova who arrived in agdam with other women and children who made their way through armenian lines she said her husband kayun and a son in law were killed in front of her her daughter was still missing one boy who arrived in agdam had an ear sliced off the survivors said others some of whom had fled separately were still missing in the gruelling terrain many could perish from their wounds or the cold by late yesterday deaths had been registered at the morgue in agdam s morgue and bodies had been buried in the cemetery of the seven corpses i saw awaiting burial two were children and three were women one shot through the chest at point blank range agdam hospital was a scene of carnage and terror doctors said they had patients who escaped slaughter most with bullet injuries or deep stab wounds nor were they safe in agdam on friday night rockets fell on the city which has a population of destroying several buildings and killing one person serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
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x soviet armenia denies the historical fact of the turkish genocide in article c lxew p panix com mpoly panix com michael s polymenakos writes maybe with the availability of anon servers some people are beginning to speak out i sure hope so because the unspeakable crimes of the armenians must be righted armenian invaders burned and sacked the fatherland of urartus massacred and exterminated its population and presented to the world all those left from the urartus as the armenian civilization all reliable western historians describe how armenians ruthlessly exterminated million muslim women children and elderly people of eastern anatolia and how they collaborated with the enemies of the ottoman empire between it is unfortunately a truth that armenians are known as collaborators of the nazis during world war ii and that even today criminal nazi members of the asala sdpa arf terrorism triangle preach and instigate racism hatred violence and terrorism among peoples and x soviet armenia continues its anti turkish policy in the following ways x soviet armenia denies the historical fact of the turkish genocide in order to shift international public opinion away from its political responsibility x soviet armenia employing asala sdpa arf terrorism and revisionism triangle and criminal nazi armenians attempts to call into question the veracity of the turkish genocide x soviet armenia has also implemented state sponsored terrorism through the asala sdpa arf terrorism and revisionism triangle in an attempt to silence the turkish people s vehement demands and protests using all its human financial and governmental resources x soviet armenia and its tools in the united states attempt to silence through terrorism bribery and other subversive methods non turkish supporters of the turkish cause be they political governmental and humanitarian using all the aforementioned methods the x soviet armenian government is attempting to neutralize the international diplomatic community from making the turkish case a contemporary issue yet despite the efforts of the x soviet armenian government and its terrorist and revisionist organizations in the last decades thanks to the struggle of those whose closest ones were systematically exterminated by the armenians the international wall of silence on this issue has begun to collapse and consequently a number of governments and organizations have become supportive of the recognition of the turkish genocide serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
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no muslim left alive not a single one historical armenian barbarism in article apr sol ctr columbia edu halsall murray fordham edu paul halsall writes simple question serdar anytime if the armenians killed so many turks in eastern anatolia how come the area today is full of turks and muslim kurds and not full of armenians suffering from a severe case of myopia no muslim left alive not a single one leading the first armenian units who crossed the ottoman border in the company of the russian invaders was the former ottoman parliamentary representative for erzurum karekin pastirmaciyan who assumed the revolutionary name armen garo another former ottoman parliamentarian hamparsum boyaciyan led the armenian guerrilla forces who ravaged turkish villages behind the lines under the nickname murad especially ordering that kill turks and kurds wherever you find them and in whatever circumstances you find them turkish children also should be killed as they form a danger to the armenian nation hamparsum boyadjian m varandian history of the dashnaktsutiun p another former member of parliament papazyan led the armenian guerrilla forces that ravaged the areas of van bitlis and mush in march the russian forces began to move toward van immediately in april the armenians of van began a revolt massacring all the turks in the vicinity so as to make possible its quick and easy conquest by russians little wonder that czar nicholas ii sent a telegram of thanks to the armenian revolutionary committee of van in april thanking it for its services to russia the armenian newspaper gochnak published in the united states also proudly reported in may that only turks remained in van the rest having been slaughtered source hovannisian richard g armenia on the road to independence university of california press berkeley and los angeles p the addition of the kars and batum oblasts to the empire increased the area of transcaucasia to over square miles the estimated population of the entire region in was of whom percent were armenian percent georgian and percent moslem of the latter group were tatars paradoxically barely one third of transcaucasia s armenians lived in the erevan guberniia where the christians constituted a majority in only three of the seven uezds erevan uezd the administrative center of the province had only armenians as compared to moslems by the time of the russian census of however the armenians had established a scant majority percent in the guberniia it had risen by to percent or of the inhabitants this impressive change in the province s ethnic character notwithstanding there was on the eve of the creation of the armenian republic a solid block of tartars who continued to dominate the southern districts from the outskirts of ereven to the border of persia see also map historic armenia and map administrative subdivisions of transcaucasia in percent turk we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the tartars and then proceeded in the work of extermination our troops surrounded village after village little resistance was offered our artillery knocked the huts into heaps of stone and dust and when the villages became untenable and inhabitants fled from them into fields bullets and bayonets completed the work some of the tartars escaped of course they found refuge in the mountains or succeeded in crossing the border into turkey the rest were killed and so it is that the whole length of the borderland of russian armenia from nakhitchevan to akhalkalaki from the hot plains of ararat to the cold mountain plateau of the north were dotted with mute mournful ruins of tartar villages they are quiet now those villages except for howling of wolves and jackals that visit them to paw over the scattered bones of the dead ohanus appressian men are like that p source stanford j shaw on armenian collaboration with invading russian armies in history of the ottoman empire and modern turkey volume ii reform revolution republic the rise of modern turkey london cambridge university press pp in april dashnaks from russian armenia organized a revolt in the city of van whose armenians comprised percent of the population closest to an armenian majority of any city in the empire leaving erivan on april armenian volunteers reached van on may and organized and carried out a general slaughter of the local muslim population during the next two days while the small ottoman garrison had to retreat to the southern side of the lake knowing their numbers would never justify their territorial ambitions armenians looked to russia and europe for the fulfillment of their aims armenian treachery in this regard culminated at the beginning of the first world war with the decision of the revolutionary organizations to refuse to serve their state the ottoman empire and to assist instead other invading russian armies their hope was their participation in the russian success would be rewarded with an independent armenian state carved out of ottoman territories armenian political leaders army officers and common soldiers began deserting in droves with the russian invasion of eastern anatolia in at the beginning of world war i the degree of armenian collaboration with the ottoman s enemy increased drastically ottoman supply lines were cut by guerilla attacks armenian revolutionaries armed armenian civil populations who in turn massacred the muslim population of the province of van in anticipation of expected arrival of the invading russian armies source stanford j shaw history of the ottoman empire and modern turkey vol ii cambridge university press london pp meanwhile czar nicholas ii himself came to the caucasus to make final plans for cooperation with the armenians against the ottomans with the president of the armenian national bureau in tiflis declaring in response from all countries armenians are hurrying to enter the ranks of the glorious russian army with their blood to serve the victory of russian arms let the russian flag wave freely over the dardanelles and the bosporus let with your will great majesty the peoples remaining under the turkish yoke receive freedom let the armenian people of turkey who have suffered for the faith of christ receive resurrection for a new free life under the protection of russia armenians again flooded into the czarist armies preparations were made to strike the ottomans from the rear and the czar returned to st petersburg confident that the day finally had come for him to reach istanbul horizon tiflis november quoted by hovannisian road to independence p fo ottoman morale and military position in the east were seriously hurt and the way was prepared for a new russian push into eastern anatolia to be accompanied by an open armenian revolt against the sultan hovannisian road to independence pp bayur iii pp w e d allen and p muratoff caucasian battlefields cambridge pp ali ihsan sabis harb hahralaram vols ankara ii fo no fo fo nos and an armenian state was organized at van under russian protection and it appeared that with the muslim natives dead or driven away it might be able to maintain itself at one of the oldest centers of ancient armenian civilization an armenian legion was organized to expel the turks from the entire southern shore of the lake in preparation for a concerted russian drive into the bitlis vilayet thousands of armenians from mus and other major centers in the east began to flood into the new armenian state by mid july there were as many as armenians crowded into the van area which before the crisis had housed and fed no more than people muslim and non muslim alike hovannisian road to independence p fop nos and bva meclis i vukela mazbatalari debates of august babi i ali evrak odasi no van ihtilali ve katl i ami zilkade september now wait there is more from the diplomacy of imperialism william l langer new york alfred a knopf pp armenians watch their opportunity to kill turks and kurds set fire to their villages and then make their escape into the mountains also since the ottomans were such great tolerators how come the armenians were counted as part of the rum millet i e forced under the control of the greek orthodox patriarchate are you people for real the main legal principles of the turkish state are summarized in article of the constitution the republic of turkey is a democratic secular and social state governed by the rule of law bearing in mind the concepts of public peace national solidarity and justice respecting human rights loyal to the nationalism of ataturk and based on the fundamental tenets set forth in the preamble of the constitution freedom of culture and religion prevailed during the ottoman empire allowing the many nations and races within its boundaries to remain autonomous the fact that the ottoman empire was the longest lived in recent history may be attributed to these freedoms despite the lack of any written constitution the first attempts to create a written constitution occurred in and although the documents adopted during these two attempts remained in force only temporarily they provided the basic elements of a constitution the constitution was the first legal document to force a parliament and the right of election to share the sovereignty of the emperor the constitution of placed some additional limitations on the emperor while increasing the power of the parliament and the government the first world war brought the ottoman empire to an end by the occupation of istanbul the parliament was dissolved and the constitution was abolished the members of parliament were sent to exile to an island by the occupying forces during the independence war the turkish grand national assembly held their first meeting on april to serve as the legislative body of the new turkish state this assembly prepared the new legal structure of the turkish republic the new republic was proclaimed on october and the new constitution was adopted in that constitution served as the legal backbone of today s modern turkish republic in turkey adopted a multi party political system the constitution of was replaced by others in and all three constitutions of the republic have been based on the principles of parliamentary democracy human rights national sovereignty division of powers private ownership and secularization major principles of the constitution the constitution with articles establishes the structure of the republic within the following principles the turkish republic is a democratic secular and social state governed by law it should be governed to maintain public peace national solidarity justice human rights and the objectives of ataturk the language of the state is turkish sovereignty is vested in the nation without any conditions or restrictions sovereignty is exercised by organizations authorized by the nation legislative power is carried by the parliament elected by the nation this power cannot be delegated transferred to any one else executive power is exercised by the president and council of ministers judicial power is exercised by the independent courts on behalf of the turkish nation all individuals are equal irrespective of language race religion color sex or political beliefs laws cannot be contradict those principles stated in the constitution structure of the state in accordance with the constitution the structure of the state is based on the principle of division of power to create a balanced and self controlled system the power is divided into legislative power executive power and judicial power balanced to secure freedoms and powers to control each other self control a legislative power the turkish grand national assembly is a parliament with one house elected by the nation for a term of five years to exercise legislative power on behalf of the nation the basic functions of this assembly are to adopt to amend or to repeal laws to approve or to dismiss the council of ministers to supervise and to question ministers or the council of ministers to debate to amend and to approve annual budgets to ratify international agreements to grant amnesty or pardons members of parliament do not have any liability for their words either oral or written during the course of their legislative duties the country is divided into constituencies the number of representatives of each is calculated according to its population every turkish citizen over the age of twenty one can vote elections are supervised by the supreme council of elections which solves all disputes or appeals in each province the local board of election runs and controls the election under the supervision and guidelines of the supreme council members of the council and boards are elected among independent judges b executive power the president of the republic is the head of state not the head of government as in the unites states the main functions of the president are to represent the state and the country to insure the implementation of the constitution to coordinate legislative judicial and executive functions act as the supreme commander of the armed forces to ratify laws and government decrees the president is elected by the grand national assembly for a period of seven years the president may ratify or return the laws for a second debate may call for a referendum executive power is exercised by the council of ministers headed by the prime minister the prime minister is appointed by the president from the members of parliament the prime minister names the ministers for approval by the president the new government council of ministers reads their program at the parliament and the vote of confidence follows there are ministers in the council ministers and other members of the administration can be sued in independent administrative courts for their misuse of power administrative errors or functions against any law c judicial power judicial power is exercised by independent courts no authority or power can instruct the judges or public prosecutors of the courts these cannot be discharged replaced or retired by executive authorities except for the reasons clearly stated by the appropriate laws there are three categories of courts in the turkish judiciary system courts of justice deal with legal commercial and criminal cases the decisions of these courts may be reviewed by the supreme court of justice upon the appeal of the parties involved the decisions or functions of the executive power including the prime minister and ministers or any governmental department can be appealed in administrative courts if these functions or decisions are against the law the decisions of these administrative courts may also be reviewed by the high administrative court the laws and decisions of the grand national assembly can be examined by the constitutional court if they contradict the constitution if found contradictory this court may cancel the decisions or laws of the parliament serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
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re the hamas way of death tclock orion oac uci edu tim clock writes while you brought up the separate question of israel s unjustified policies and practices i am still unclear about your reaction to the practices and polocies reflected in the article above tim not a separate question mr clock it is deceiving to judge the resistance movement out of the context of the occupation alaa zeineldine
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re investment in yehuda and shomron in article igc apc org cpr igc apc org center for policy research writes those who wish to learn something about the perversion of judaism should consult the masterly work by yehoshua harkabi who was many years the head of israeli intelligence and an opponent of the plo his latest book was published in english and includes a very detailed analysis of judeo nazism you mean he talks about those jews who because of their self hatred spend all their time attacking judaism jews and israel using the most despicable of anti semetic stereotypes i don t think we need to coin a term like jedeo nazism to refer to those jews who in their endless desire to be accepted by the nazis do their dirty work for them we can just call them house jews fools or anti semites from jewish families i think house jews a reference to a person of jewish ancestry who issues statements for a company or organization that condemn judaism is perfectly sufficeint i think a few years free of their anti semetic role models would do wonders for most of them adam adam shostack adam das harvard edu if we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors we sure wouldn t waste them on members of congress john perry barlow
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how many israeli soldiers does it take to boy that was really humorous i m impressed by your incredible senses of wit sarcasm and propriety mind if i post jokes about your mother
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re legality of the jewish purchase in article apr bnr ca zbib bnr ca writes adam shostack writes sam zbib writes i m surprised that you don t consider the acquisition of land by the jews from arabs for the purpose of establishing an exclusive state as a hostile action leading to war it was for the purpose of establishing a state not an exclusive state if the state was to be exclusive it would not have arab citizens could you please tell me what was the ethnic composition of israel right after it was formed israeli citizens the ethnic composition depends on what you mean by formed what the un deeded to israel what it won in war and no i do not consider the purchase of land a hostile action when someone wants to buy land and someone else is willing to sell it at a mutually agreeable price then that is commerce it is not a hostile action leading to war no one in his right mind would sell his freedom and dignity palestinians are no exception perhaps you heard about anti trust in the business world were there anti trust laws in place in mandatory palestine since the answer is no you re argument while interestingly constructed is irrelevant i will however respond to a few points you assert in the course of talking about anti trust laws they were establishing a bridgehead for the european jews and those fleeing arab lands where jews were second class citizens plus they paid fair market value etc jews often paid far more than fair market value for the land they bought they did not know they were victims of an international conspiracy you know sam when people start talking about an international jewish conspiracy its really begins to sound like anti semitic bull the reason there is no conspiracy here is quite simple zionists made no bones about what was going on there were conferences publications etc all talking about creating a national home for the jews israel gave citizenship to the remaining arabs because it had to maintain a democratic facade to keep the western aid flowing israel got no western aid in nor in or it still granted citizenship to those arabs who remained and how is granting citizenship a facade don t get me wrong i beleive that israel is democratic within the constraints of one dominant ethnic group jews bad arabs personaly i ve never heard anything about the arab community in isreal except that they re there so yes they re there but as a community with history and roots its dead because you ve never heard of it its dead the fact is you claimed israel had to give arabs rights because of non existant international aid then you see that that argument has a hole you could drive a truck through and again assert that israel is only democratic within the unexplained constraints of one ethnic group the problem with that argument is that arabs are allowed to vote for whoever they please so please tell me sam what constraints are there on israeli democracy that don t exist in other democratic states i ve never heard anything about the khazakistani arab population does that mean that they have no history or roots when i was at ben gurion university in israel one of my neighbors was an israeli arab he wasn t really all that different from my other neighbors does that make him dead or oppressed i stand corrected i meant that the jewish culture was not predominant in palestine in recent history i have no problem with jerusalem having a jewish character if it were predominantly jewish so there what to make of the rest palestine how recent is recent i can probably build a case for a jewish gaza city it would be pretty silly but i could do it i m arguing not that jerusalem is jewish but that land has no ethnicity adam adam shostack adam das harvard edu if we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors we sure wouldn t waste them on members of congress john perry barlow
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himmler s speech on the extirpation of the jewish race washington a stark reminder of the holocaust a speech by nazi ss leader heinrich himmler that refers to the extermination of the jewish race went on display friday at the national archives the documents including handwritten notes by himmler are among the best evidence that exists to rebut claims that the holocaust is a myth archivists say the notes give them their authenticity said robert wolfe a supervisory archivist for captured german records he was supposed to destroy them like a lot of bosses he didn t obey his own rules the documents moved out of berlin to what himmler hoped would be a safe hiding place were recovered by allied forces after world war ii from a salt mine near salzburg austria himmler spoke on oct in posen poland to more than german secret police generals i also want to talk to you quite frankly on a very grave matter among ourselves it should be mentioned quite frankly and yet we will never speak of it publicly i mean the clearing out of the jew the extermination of the jewish race this is a page of glory in our history which has never been written and is never to be written emphasis mine rje the german word himmler uses that is translated as extermination is ausrottung wolfe said a more precise translation would be extirpation or tearing up by the roots in his handwritten notes himmler used a euphemism judenevakuierung or evacuation of the jews but archives officials said extermination is the word he actually spoke preserved on an audiotape in the archives himmler who oversaw adolf hitler s final solution of the jewish question committed suicide after he was arrested in the national archives exhibit on display through may is a preview of the opening of the united states holocaust memorial museum here on april the national archives exhibit includes a page each of himmler s handwritten notes a typed transcript from the speech and an offical translation made for the nuremberg war crimes trials from p a of saturday s l a times associated press revans math ucsd edu
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re more on adl spying case arens isi edu yigal arens writes los angeles times tuesday april p a new details of extensive adl spy operation emerge inquiry transcripts reveal nearly years of espionage by a man who infiltrated political groups by richard c paddock times staff writer did they have a file on yigal too
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re xsoviet armenia denies the historical fact of the turkish genocide in article apr hellgate utah edu tolman asylum cs utah edu cs utah edu kenneth tolman writes i sure hope so because the unspeakable crimes of the armenians must be righted armenian invaders burned and sacked the fatherland of no no no no no no no it is not justifiable to right wrongs of previous years my ancestors tortured enslaved and killed blacks i do not want to take responsibility for them i may not have any direct relatives who did such things but how am i to know there is enough current torture enslavement and genocide to go around lets correct that lets forget and forgive each and every one of us has a historical reason to kill torture or take back things from those around us pray let us not be infantile arbiters for past injustice are you suggesting that we should forget the cold blooded genocide of million muslim people by the armenians between and but most people aren t aware that in hitler said that he would pattern his elimination of the jews based upon what the armenians did to turkish people in after all who remembers today the extermination of the tartars adolf hitler august ruth w rosenbaum durusoy the turkish holocaust turk soykirimi p i refer to the turks and kurds as history s forgotten people it does not serve our society well when most people are totally unaware of what happened in where a vicious society run by fascist armenians decided to simply use the phoniest of pretexts as an excuse for wiping out a peace loving industrious and very intelligent and productive ethnic group what we have is a demand from the fascist government of x soviet armenia to redress the wrongs that were done against our people and the only way we can do that is if we can catch hold of and not lose sight of the historical precedence in this very century we cannot reverse the events of the past but we can and we must strive to keep the memory of this tragedy alive on this side of the atlantic so as to help prevent a recurrence of the extermination of a people because of their religion or their race which means that i support the claims of the turks and kurds to return to their lands in x soviet armenia to determine their own future as a nation in their own homeland serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
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entire muslim population was subjected to genocide by armenians in article sdcc ucsd edu hminassi sdcc ucsd edu hm writes azeri president abulfaz elchibey said azerbaijan had recovered the bodies of some terrorists including blacks mongols and fighters recently brought to the armenian capital yerevan from lebanon you can dream whatever you wish we have demands from the armenians with the government of x soviet armenia we would sit down go over all our outstanding issues whether it s land or reparations or recognition whatever it is we d like to sit down and ask for it by all means lands and properties were taken away from us and they should be returned to the rightful owners the turkish and kurdish people who were there years long before the armenians ever showed up in that area entire population of the region was subjected to genocide beyond belief genocide which was planned to exterminate the whole turkish people of the region to the last man woman and child armenians tortured and massacred millions of defenseless civilians to assemble innocent civilians in the mosques and burn them in the buildings was one of their methods even today the traveler in that region is seldom free from the evidence of these armenian crimes if you have the stomach i would strongly recommend the following references on the armenian genocide of the muslims many more of them are also available in the erzurum and van turkish genocide museums neside kerem demir bir sehid anasina tarihin soyledikleri turkiye nin ermeni meselesi hulbe basim ve yayin t a s ankara veysel eroglu ermeni mezalimi sebil yayinevi istanbul a alper gazigiray osmanlilardan gunumuze kadar vesikalarla ermeni teroru nun kaynaklari gozen kitabevi istanbul dr kirzioglu m fahrettin kars ili ve cevresinde ermeni mezalimi kardes matbaasi ankara but more than that a final goodbye in azerbaijan photo by associated press at a cemetery in agdam azerbaijan family members and friends grieved during the burial of victims killed in the fighting in nagorno karabagh chingiz iskandarov right hugged the coffin containing the remains of his brother one of the victims a copy of koran lay atop the coffin the new york times final embrace photo by associated press chingiz iskenderov right weeps over coffin holding the remains of his brother as other relatives grieve at an azarbaijani cemetery yesterday amid burial of victims killed in fighting in nagorno karabagh the washington post nagorno karabagh victims buried in azerbaijani town refugees claim hundreds died in armenian attack of seven bodies seen here today two were children and three were women one shot through the chest at what appeared to be close range another refugees being treated at agdam s hospital include many with multiple stab wounds thomas goltz the washington post serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
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thousands of armenians were serving the german army and waffen ss in article sdcc ucsd edu hminassi sdcc ucsd edu hm writes turkey must bare its teeth to armenia sooner than you expect remember cyprus i have to say i vehemently disagree with you i have seen too bad in fact by nazi armenians in europe had established a vast network of pro german collaborators that extended over two continents thousands of armenians were serving the german army and waffen ss in russia and western europe armenians were involved in espionage and fifth column activities for hitler in the balkans and arabian peninsula they were promised an independent state under german protection in an agreement signed by the armenian national council a copy of this agreement can be found in the congressional record november see document on this side of the atlantic nazi armenians were aware of their brethrens alliance they had often expressed pro nazi sentiments until america entered the war in summary during world war ii armenians were carried away with the german might and cringing and fawning over the nazis in that zeal the armenian publication in germany hairenik carried statements as follows sometimes it is difficult to eradicate these poisonous elements the jews when they have struck deep root like a chronic disease and when it becomes necessary for a people the nazis to eradicate them in an uncommon method these attempts are regarded as revolutionary during the surgical operation the flow of blood is a natural thing now for a brief view of the armenian genocide of the muslims and jews extracts from a letter dated december published in the san francisco chronicle as an answer to a letter that had been published in the same journal under the signature of one b amarian we have first hand information and evidence of armenian atrocities against our people jews members of our family witnessed the murder of members of our family near erzurum turkey by armenian neighbors bent on destroying anything and anybody remotely jewish and or muslim armenians should look to their own history and see the havoc they and their ancestors perpetrated upon their neighbors armenians were in league with hitler in the last war on his premise to grant them self government if in return the armenians would help exterminate jews armenians were also hearty proponents of the anti semitic acts in league with the russian communists mr amarian i don t need your bias signed elihu ben levi vacaville california james g mandalian dro drastamat kanayan in the armenian review a quarterly by the hairenik association inc summer june vol x no serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
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how many more muslim people will be slaughtered by sdpa criminals in article apr urartu sdpa org hla urartu sdpa org writes i want this discussion to take place in english because it is only after let s face it if the words don t get into your noggin in the first place there s no hope now tell us sdpa org a mouthpiece of the fascist x soviet armenian government what was your role in the murder of orhan gunduz and kemal arikan how many more muslims will be slaughtered by sdpa org as publicly declared and filed with the legal authorities that more people have to die sdpa urartu uucp yes i stated this and stand by it sdpa urartu uucp january los angeles kemal arikan is slaughtered by two armenians while driving to work march cambridge massachusetts prelude to grisly murder a gift and import shop belonging to orhan gunduz is blown up gunduz receives an ultimatum either he gives up his honorary position or he will be executed he refuses responsibility is claimed by jcag and sdpa may cambridge massachusetts orhan gunduz the turkish honorary consul in boston would not bow to the armenian terrorist ultimatum that he give up his title of honorary consul now he is attacked and murdered in cold blood president reagan orders an all out manhunt to no avail an eye witness who gave a description of the murderer is shot down he survives but falls silent one of the most revolting triumphs in the senseless mindless history of armenian terrorism such a murder brings absolutely nothing except an ego boost for the murderer within the armenian terrorist underworld which is already wallowing in self satisfaction were you involved in the murder of sarik ariyak december sydney two nazi armenians massacre sarik ariyak and his bodyguard engin sever jcag and sdpa claim responsibility source edward k boghosian radical group hosts well attended solidarity meeting the armenian reporter may pp athens greece an array of representatives of greek political parties including the ruling pasok party and a host of political groups both armenian and non armenian joined to voice their solidarity with the armenian people in their pursuit of their cause and activities of a new armenian political force were voiced here on sunday april during the nd international meeting of solidarity with the armenian people and judging from encouraging messages offered by the representatives of these political groups and organizations at least here in greece the armenian cause enjoys abundant support from a wide spectrum of the political world the international meeting of solidarity was sponsored by the greek branch of the armenian popular movement a comparatively new political force headed by younger generations of armenians who openly profess their support of the armed struggle and of the armenian secret army for the liberation of armenia asala the organization has branches in various european and middle eastern countries and the united states although some of these branches appear to have gone through a switch of loyalties because of the split within the ranks of asala voicing the support of pasok the ruling party in greece to the armenian people was mr charalambidi michalis a member of the central committee of the party and the greek member of the permanent people s tribunal explaining the goals and aspirations of the armenian popular movement was ara sarkisian significant was the address delivered by mr bassam abu salim on behalf of the popular front for the movement s continued support of the armenians armed struggle in their pursuit of their cause pledging that palestinian operated and run training camps would always be open to armenian youth who need training for such a struggle later mr abu salim answering a question put to him by this writer affirmed that his organization had always trained armenian members of asala and that this policy will continue the doors of our camps are always open to armenian freedom fighters he affirmed among the prominent greek politicians who attended the conference was the son of prime minister papandreou who himself holds a post in the greek cabinet two members of the cypriot parliament who had journeyed to athens for the specific purpose of attending the international gathering representatives of the christian democratic party edik center party two wings of the communist party representatives of an assortment of labor unions and trade associations a number of mayors of greek towns and cities two greek members of the european parliament and other members of the greek parliament were also among those who participated in the international conference also on hand to follow the deliberations was the ambassador of bulgaria in athens more than significant was the large number of messages received by the organizers including the following palestinian national revolutionary movement fatah popular front for the liberation of palestine general command the central committee of the palestinian national liberation movement fatah the socialist progressive party of lebanon arab socialist labor party the kurdistan democratic union of iraq and numerous other international groups all noted for their radical stand in the israeli palestinian conflict support from arf rm among messages received from armenian groups was the armenian revolutionary federation revolutionary movement the group that has claimed the abduction and assassination of key party leaders in lebanon accused of selling out to foreign interests and powers the message clearly gave its support to the armenian popular movement pledging that the revolutionary movement will continue to reveal the realities no matter how bitter or tragic they are to expose the anti armenian activities of the leaders of the dashnag bureau the message was taken as an indication of the link loose as it may be that exists between the dissident dashnag group and the armenian popular movement open supporters of asala and armed struggle the armenian popular movement has set up its headquarters in a suburb of the greek capital known as neos kosmos where there is a large armenian presence the headquarters are located in a two story building which appears to have turned into a beehive of activity on the part of scores of armenian youth who prefer to give their first names only when invited to introduce themselves now any comment from vd cunixb cc columbia edu vedat dogan subject re addressing message id apr news columbia edu in article apr urartu sdpa org dbd urartu sdpa org david davidian writes in article apr news columbia edu vd cunixb cc columbia edu vedat dogan wrote in response to article mar urartu sdpa org dbd urartu sdpa org david davidian writes source adventures in the near east by a rawlinson jonathan cape bedford square london first published pages dd such a pile of garbage first off the above reference was first published dd in not and has pages not second upon checking page dd we are asked to believe vd no mr davidian vd it was first published in i have the book on my desk now vd vd and furthermore the book i have does not have pages either as you vd claimed mr davidian it has pages any question well it seems your book has its total page numbers closer to mine than the n crap posted by mr o boy please can you tell us why those quotes are crap because you do not like them because they really exist why as i said in my previous posting those quotes exactly exist in the source given by serdar argic you couldn t reject it in addition the author s preface was written on january but the book was published in here we go again in the book i have both the front page and the author s preface give the same year and january respectively anyone can check it at her his library if not i can send you the copies of pages please ask by sct i really don t care what year it was first published or what i care about is what the book writes about murders tortures et in the given quotes by serdar argic and your denial of these quotes and your groundless accussations etc dd i can provide gif postings if required to verify my claim vd what is new i will post a gif file but i am not going go through the effort to show there is some turkish modified re publication of the book like last time i claim i have a book in my hand published in first publication and it exactly has the same quoted info as the book published in serdar argic s reference has you couldn t reject it but now you are avoiding the real issues by twisting around let s see how you lie from non existing quotes to re publication first you said there was no such a quote in the given reference you called serdar argic a liar i said to you no mr davidian there exactly existed such a quote i even gave the call number page numbers you could t reject it and now you are lying again and talking about modified re published book without any proof how when where by whom etc by the way how is it possible to re publish the book in if it was first published in your claim i am sure that you have some pretty well suited theories as usual and i am ready to send the copies of the necessary pages to anybody who wants to compare the fact and mr davidian s lies i also give the call number and page numbers again for the library use which are r and the page numbers to verify the quotes and it is not possible that s text has pages mine has and yours has now are you claiming that there can t be such a reference by saying it is not possible if not what is your point differences in the number of pages mine was published in serdar argic s was in no need to use the same book size and the same letter charachter in both publications etc etc does it give you an idea the issue was not the number of pages the book has or the year first published and you tried to hide the whole point the point is that both books have the exactly the same quotes about how moslems are killed tortured etc by armenians and those quotes given by serdar argic exist it was the issue wasn t it you were not able to object it does it bother you anyway you name all these tortures and murders by armenians as a crap people who think like you are among the main reasons why the world still has so many craps in the any question serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
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sdpa has made armenian synonymous with idiot or criminal nazi in article apr urartu sdpa org hla urartu sdpa org writes in your and mutlu argic cosar s and thousands of others like you sdpa org criminals nazis in action your fascist government got away with the genocide of million turkish men women and children and is enjoying the fruits of that genocide and your criminal organization will not get away with the genocide s cover up in june a major uprising took place in sebinkarahisar under the leadership of the famous nazi boyadjian the moslem districts were burnt down hundreds of soldiers and gendarmerie were killed and hundreds of civilians also perished armenians first of all occupied the talori region which included the villages of siner simai gulli guzat ahi hedenk sinank ekind effard musson etek akcesser leaving their wives children and property in these inaccessible spots the armenians joined forces with other armed bands coming from the silvan districts in the plain of mus after which the whole body of men gathered in the andok mt five or six hundred wished to surround mus and started off by attacking the delican tribe to the south of the city they slaughtered a number of the tribe and seized their goods the religious beliefs of the muslims who fell into their hands were derided and disparaged and the muslims themselves murdered in the most frightful manner the rebels also attacked the regular troops in the vicinity of mus but the large numbers of the regular forces prevented them from occupying the city the rebels joined the bandits in the andok mts carrying out the most frightful massacres and looting among the tribes of the neighbourhood they burned omer agha s nephew alive they raped a number of turkish women at a spot three or four hours distance from gulli guzat and then strangled them at the beginning of august the rebels attacked the faninar bekiran and badikan tribes perpetrating equally horrible atrocities the rebels in the villages of yermut and ealigernuk in the nahiye of cinan in the kaza of cal attacked the kurds in the neighbourhood as well as the villages of kaisser and catcat towards the end of august the armenians attacked the kurds in the vicinity of mus and burned down three or four villages including gulli guzat as for the rebels in talori they continued to spread death and destruction among the muslims and other christian communities refusing to lay down their arms source uras esat the armenians in history documentary publications istanbul p in his speech given at the sivas congress mustafa kemal once again drew a picture of the country under occupation in the east the armenians are making preparations for advancing to the river halys kizilirmak and have already started a policy of massacring the moslem population pp the situation of the southern provinces of turkey after the signing of the mudros armistice is described by ataturk in his speech the armenians in the south armed by foreign troops and encouraged by the protection they enjoyed molested the mohammedans of their district they pursued a relentless policy of murder and extinction everywhere this was responsible for the tragic incident at maras the armenians had completely destroyed an old mohammedan town like maras by their artillery and machine gun fire they killed thousands of innocent and defenceless women and children the armenians were the instigators of the atrocities which were unique in history source documents volume i document no archive no cabin no drawer no file no section no contents no feb march district governor kemal list of male inhabitants of mergehu village murdered or annihilated with the utmost savagery by armenians names method of annihilation haci ibrahim son of abdi bullets and bayonet abdi son of haci ibrahim bullets and bayonet reso son of abdi beaten and cut into pieces sado son of omer beaten and cut into pieces aso son of reso beaten and cut into pieces kulu son of canko stabbed in the eye with a bayonet musa son of canko bayonet in his eye emin son of molla hamit bayonet in his eye molla abdullah son of hamit bayonet in his eye ibo son of haci bayonet in his eye sado son of haci bayonet in his eye abdullah son of canko slaughtered ibo son of ahmet abdomen ripped open ismail son of ibo burnt in fire musto son of ozu bullets mahmut son of seyyo slaughtered kocak son of birro bullets musto son of husnu bullets uso son of alo bullets maksut son of peri bullets haci son of peri bullets mehmet son of hasanali bayonet ibo son of hasanali bayonet abdo son of mehmed bayonet molla suleyman burnt in oven mazgi son of abdullah stabbed in abdomen by bayonet sulis son of hasan bullets mahmo son of mehmet stabbed with a dagger murat son of hasan stabbed with a dagger uso son of avci blinded with a bayonet lesko son of mehmet stabbed with a dagger abdullah son of kasim bullets coban abdullah bullets seymo son of mumin bullets muammer son of reso bullets paso son of merzi bullets gulu son of bitor bullets murat son of yusuf bullets and bayonet cedo son of haci ibrahim bullets and bayonet faki mehmet bullets and bayonet silo son of abdulcebbar bullets and bayonet list of massacred females from the same village kasi daughter of huso and wife of haci ibrahim bullets fati daughter of isa wife of aduz bullets zeresan daughter of amat wife of reso bayonet gullu daughter of iyso cutting off her breasts sulnu daughter of sulo ripping open her abdomen and burning wife of ibo her baby in oven fatma daughter of ibo slaughtered and burnt in oven fidan hatun burnt in oven gulfizar daughter of hacihan wife of musto slaughtered rahime daughter of mehmet wife of halil bullets binefs daughter of haci kerim wife of suleyman burnt in oven mahiye daughter of ali wife of sivno slaughtered hati daughter of haci wife of ahmet slaughtered hacer daughter of meho bullet and bayonet list of females of the same village raped and murdered nadire daughter of haci wife of suvis hani daughter of kulu wife of zerko zaliha daughter of telli wife of silo arap daughter of sami wife of hilo wounded males and females of the same village a long list list of massacred males and females at istuci village mikail son of alo bullets musto son of ismail bullets dervis son of maksut bullets ali son of nimet bayonet esat son of kelo bayonet and bullets isa son of nebi bayonet and bullets cevher son of gani beaten by rifle butt ziro daughter of hasan died from injuries hazal daughter of ali wife of acem died from injuries hamsa daughter of huseyin wife of huseyin died from injuries list of raped women at istuci village in life sabo daughter of maho virgin miri other daughter of maho virgin emine daughter of meho wife of sofi salih sahap daughter of ali wife of nevruz gullu daughter of mahi virgin list of persons attacked by armenian gangs a long list serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
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re himmler s speech on the extirpation of the jewish race it is appropriate to add what himmler said other inferior races and human animals in his speech at posen and elsewhere from the speech of reichsfuehrer ss himmler before ss major generals posen october nazi conspiracy and aggression vol iv p one basic principal must be the absolute rule for the ss man we must be honest decent loyal and comradely to members of our own blood and to nobody else what happens to a russian to a czech does not interest me in the slightest what the nations can offer in good blood of our type we will take if necessary by kidnapping their children and raising them with us whether nations live in prosperity or starve to death interests me only in so far as we need them as slaves for our culture otherwise it is of no interest to me whether russian females fall down from exhaustion while digging an anti tank ditch interest me only in so far as the anti tank ditch for germany is finished we shall never be rough and heartless when it is not necessary that is clear we germans who are the only people in the world who have a decent attitude towards animals will also assume a decent attitude towards these human animals but it is a crime against our own blood to worry about them and give them ideals thus causing our sons and grandsons to have a more difficult time with them when someone comes to me and says i cannot dig the anti tank ditch with women and children it is inhuman for it will kill them then i would have to say you are a murderer of your own blood because if the anti tank ditch is not dug german soldiers will die and they are the sons of german mothers they are our own blood extract from himmler s address to party comrades september trials of wa criminals vol iv p if any pole has any sexual dealing with a german woman and by this i mean sexual intercourse then the man will be hanged right in front of his camp then the others will not do it besides provisions will be made that a sufficient number of polish women and girls will come along as well so that a necessity of this kind is out of the question the women will be brought before the courts without mercy and where the facts are not sufficiently proved such borderline cases always happen they will be sent to a concentration camp this we must do unless these one million poles and those hundreds of thousands of workers of alien blood are to inflict untold damage on the german blood philosophizing is of no avail in this case it would be better if we did not have them at all we all know that but we need them danny keren
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re armenia says it could shoot down turkish planes in article apr kpc com henrik quayle kpc com writes in article apr ee rochester edu terziogl ee rochester edu esin terzioglu writes in article apr urartu sdpa org dbd urartu sdpa org david davidian writes armenia says it could shoot down turkish planes ermenistan kasiniyor let me translate for everyone else before the public traslation service gets into it armenia is getting itchy esin let me clearify mr turkish armenia is not getting itchy she is simply letting the world know that she will no longer sit there quiet and let turks get away with their famous tricks armenians do remember of the turkish invasion of the greek island of cypress while the world simply watched your ignorance is obvious from your posting cyprus was an independent country with turkish greek inhabitants not a greek island like your ignorant posting claims the name should be cyprus in english next time read and learn before you post esin
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re was go hezbollah mafifi eis calstate edu marc a afifi writes let s not forget that the soldiers were killed not murdered the distinction is not trivial murder happens to innocent people not people whose line of work is to kill or be killed it just so happened that these soldiers in the line of duty were killed by the opposition that still doesn t mean we should cheer their deaths policemen are also in the line of fire and their job includes the possibility of getting killed should we be happy when they die as i said before the question is not whether or not you agree with the policies of israel you may wish for the israelis to cease occupation but don t rejoice in death marc ed
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re was go hezbollah amehdi src honeywell com hossien amehdi writes in article c ifh q news cso uiuc edu eshneken ux cso uiuc edu edward a shnekendorf writes what the hell do you know about israeli policy what gives you the fiat to look into the minds of israeli generals has this policy of intimidation been published somewhere for your information the actions taken by arabs specifically the plo were not uncommon in the lebanon campaign of my brain is full of shit at least i don t look into the minds of others and make israeli policy for them deleted i am not in the business of reading minds however in this case it would not be necessary israelis top leaders in the past and present always come across as arrogant with their tough talks trying to intimidate the arabs how would you deal with arabs who always threaten to drive you into the sea or burn half your conuntry would you talk nicely would you say please you wouldn t the language of the middle east is power and force sorry that is the way it is now if you aren t strong you go down israel has to talk and act tough notice israel talks and acts tough in battle but is willing to talk peace the way i see it israelis and arabs have not been able to achieve peace after almost years of fighting because of the following two major reasons arab governments are not really representative of their people currently most of their leaders are stupid and or not independent and or dictators true and they have brainwashed their people into thinking jews are some sort of monsters arab non recognition of israel and support of war and terror is also an important factor wouldn t you say israeli government is arrogant and none comprising what do you want israel to do they are negotating i m sick of people calling for israel to withdraw from the territories now that s not realistic don t you realize that a solution must be negotiated it is on the table have patience ed
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re was go hezbollah in c i j f a eis calstate edu mafifi eis calstate edu marc a afifi writes stssdxb st unocal com dorin baru writes even the most extemist one sided jewish israeli postings with which i certainly disagree did not openly back plain murder you do the lebanese resistance you are talking about is a bunch of lebanese farmers who detonate bombs after work or is an organized entity of not only lebanese well trained mercenaries i do not know just curious i guess you also back the killings of hundreds of marines in beirut right what kind of resistance movement killed jewish attlets in munich you liked it didn t you you posted some other garbage before so at least you seem to be consistent dorin dorin let s not forget that the soldiers were killed not murdered the distinction is not trivial murder happens to innocent people not people whose line of work is to kill or be killed it just so happened that these soldiers in the line of duty were killed by the opposition and resistance is different from terrorism certainly the athletes in munich were victims of terrorists though some might call them freedom fighters and some of us call them murderous bastards but what s in a name their deaths cannot be compared to those of soldiers who are killed by resistance fighters don t forget that it was the french resistance to the nazi occupying forces which eventually succeeded in driving out the hostile occupiers in wwii diplomacy has not worked with israel and the just a damn minute what history books did you read i seem to recall that there were a few british canadian american and commonwealth soldiers in france about that time perhaps you believe they were taking a vacation trip lebanese people are tired of being occupied they are now turning to the only option they see as viable don t forget that it worked in driving out the us sure the lebanese want to get all foreigners out of the country so they can go back to killing each other off marc reb some people are so narrow minded they can see through a crack in a door with both eyes my opinions should be yours my employer has no opinions
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re fundamentalism again in article khan nova khan nova gmi edu mohammad razi khan writes one of my biggest complaints about using the word fundamentalist is that at least in the u s a people speak of muslime fundamentalists muslim but nobody defines what a jewish or christan fundamentalist is i wonder what an equal definition would be any takers well i would go as far as saying that naturei karta are definitely jewish fundamentalists other ultra orthodox jewish groups might very well be though i am hesitant of making such a broad generalization shai guday stealth bombers os software engineer thinking machines corp the winged ninjas of the skies cambridge ma
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re was go hezbollah in article c i j f a eis calstate edu mafifi eis calstate edu marc a afifi writes don t forget that it was the french resistance to the nazi occupying forces which eventually succeeded in driving out the hostile occupiers in wwii actually this is incorrect french resistance may have played some part in hindering the german war effort however the crucial role was supplied on d day diplomacy has not worked with israel and the lebanese people are tired of being occupied they are now turning to the only option they see as viable don t forget that it worked in driving out the us interesting statement especially when you consider that lebanon had claimed to have made progress in the peace talks as well as israel of course one of the prime obstacles to israel s complete withdrawal is the lack of governmental control that can be applied to the area as well as the large presence of syrian forces which have not been asked to withdraw as well shai guday stealth bombers os software engineer thinking machines corp the winged ninjas of the skies cambridge ma
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re enough freeman bashing was no free man propaganda machine freemanwith blood greetings from israel in article c i jg bm eis calstate edu mafifi eis calstate edu marc a afifi writes pgf cunixb cc columbia edu peter garfiel freeman writes peter i believe this is your most succinct post to date since you have nothing to say you say nothing it s brilliant did you think of this all by yourself marc hey tough guy read the topic that s the message get a brain go to a real school
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re turkey cyprus bosnia serbia greece armenia azeris tankut iastate edu sabri t atan writes in article c if u ky news cso uiuc edu ptg uxa cso uiuc edu panos tamamidis writes i have nothing against greeks but my problem is with fanatics i have met so many greeks who wouldn t even talk to me because i am turkish from my experience all my friends always were open to greeks well the history wars current situations all of them do not help well panos mr tamamidis the way you put it it is only the turks who bear the responsibility of the things happening today that is hard to believe for somebody trying to be objective well if you put things into historical perspective the turks moved into an area which was inhabited by greeks this is how the history between the two nations started some centuries ago since then it has been a continuous battle between the two nations from my perspective i can t see why i should say that greeks have been responsible for what has happened between the two nations of course it would not be reasonable to argue that the hostility should drag till we kick the turks out of this area this isn t going to happen so the best would be to improve the relations between the two countries a golden oportunity exists with cyprus if things can t work there there isn t any possible way that could work between our nations when it comes to conflicts like our countries having you cannot blame one side only there always are bad guys on both sides what were you doing on anatolia after the ww anyway do you think it was your right to be there i always avoid to discuss such things i consider it a waist of my time besides as i said i do not want to open a new flame i am not saying that conflicts started with that it is only not one side being the aggressive and the ither always suffering it is sad that we both still are not trying to compromise i remember the action of the turkish government by removing the visa requirement for greeks to come to turkey i thought it was a positive attempt to make the relations better i thought it was a smart move to receive more money from greek tourists i bet that this week there should be about tourists from greece in turkey each one will leave at least so go and figure what this means to your economy if you had kept the visa requirement how many greeks would bother to visit turkey the greeks i mentioned who wouldn t talk to me are educated people they have never met me but they know i am bad person because i am from turkey politics is not my business and it is not the business of most of the turks when it comes to individuals why the hatred come on do not extrapolate from your limited personal experience you err if you think you d get a reasonable conclusion tankut atan tankut iastate edu panos tamamidis
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an iranian azeri who would drop an atomic bomb on armenia in article fhm f oduvm bitnet farid fhm f oduvm bitnet writes farid in support of the preservation of the territorial integrity of farid azerbaijan and its independence from russian rule the iranians which farid includes millions of azerbaijanis will have armenia retreat from the farid territory of azerbaijan oh they will this should prove quite interesting farid to count on iranian help to supposedly counter turkish influence will farid be a fatal error on the part of armenia as long as armenia in farid violation of international law has azerbaijani lands in occupation armenia is not counting on iranian help as far as violations of international laws which international law gives azerbaijan the right to attack and depopulate the armenians in karabakh farid if armenian aggression continues in the territory of azerbaijan not farid only there won t be any aid from iran to armenia but also steps will farid be taken to have armenian army back in armenia and who do you speak for rafsanjani farid the azerbaijanis of iran will be the guarantors of this policy as for farid scaring iranians or turks from the russian power experts on present farid and future military potentials of these people would not put much farid stock on the russain power as the sole power in the region for long well farid your supposed experts are not expert the russians have had non stop influence in the caucasus since the treaty of turkmanchay in hmm that makes it years oh i see the azeris from iran are going to force out the armenians from karabakh that will be a real good trick farid iran is not alian to developing the capability to produce the a bomb farid and a reliable delivery system refer to recent news releases farid regarding the potential of iran so the azeris from iran are going to force the armenians from karabakh by forcing the iranian government to drop an atomic bomb on these armenians farid the moral of the story is that you don t go invading your neighbor s farid home azerbaijan and flash russia s guns when questioned about it oh but it s just fine if you drop an atomic bomb on your neighbor you are a damn fool farid farid marshal shapashnikov may have to eat his words regarding turkey in a farid few short years so you are going to drop an atomic bomb on russia as well farid peaceful resolution of the armenian azerbaijani conflict is the only farid way to go armenia may soon find the fruits of aggression very bitter farid indeed and the armenians will take your peaceful dropping of an atomic bomb as an example of iranian azeri benevolence you sir are a poor example of an iranian azeri ha and to think i had a nice two day stay in tabriz back in david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org how do we explain turkish troops on s d p a center for regional studies the armenian border when we can t p o box even explain cambridge ma turkish mp march
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9,997 |
talk.politics.mideast
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re turkey cyprus bosnia serbia greece armenia azeris in article c i rk l i news cso uiuc edu msg uxa cso uiuc edu michalis syrimis writes any concentration labor camp in turkey around or later for cypriot greeks or any greeks rather than talking nonsense like above i will be glad to read what they got how can you be in a position to know about any kind of concentration camps akgun living through those days at the age of and following the internal and external news gives me that knowledge and position in turkey had a democratic goverment and free press at that time forget about internal news agencies i haven t heard anything from any international source about any concentration camps with greek cypriot prisoners in turkey however i heard adana pow camp it was not secret and well recognized pow camp as for all the registered prisoners to the red cross having returned to their homes this is your version of the story there are cases in which prisoners who were registered some of them even sent messages to their relatives were not released these are undeniable facts i see they vanished in turkish labor camps turks have decided to acknowledge their existence first but later changed their minds releasing them is that it what do you think happened to them i thought that mia s are only the subject of rambo and chuck noris movies seems that i am wrong as for their treatment being according to what convention okay we believe you you don t need to belive me turkiye was never a clandestine state in its history it has been a respected and continuous member of un since the inception of un no body ever questioned the un membership of turkey because of what had happened in a and after only a short lived arms embargo was imposed unilaterally by usa to satisfy the internal greek loby i know what you would say next let me answer it before wasting anytime yes un had a few condemning resolutions against turkey because of handling the cyprus problem especially after the coup well us and israel had a few too what can i say i am sure during athens junta duruing greeks had their own share too closed matter today between turkish cypriots turks greeks greek cypriots there is no more any official demand from greek cypriots about any missing greek cypriots where have you heard that there is no official demand regarding the missing persons have you looked at the latest un agenda for cyprus talks mediated by gali there was no issue whatsoever about any missing people among the negotiating parties was there i heard many times from denktas interviews by turkish and international press he keeps saying that this was no longer an issue for peace talks also you don t want me fish for the greek cypriot politician s words that argic had posted zillion times describing missing peoples as a greek cypriot myth seems that there is a different opinions among greek cypriots as well about missing people in turkish custody your claim that the majority of the missing persons were infact killed in the period between the coup d eta and the invasion days is simply not true all the cases of missing persons i know and i know quite a few are cases of people who were either in the reserve forces and were lost somewhere in the battlefield or were civilians who were taken prisoners in their villages by the turkish army i am not claiming anything i just told you what was given to greek cypriots as an answer by turkish goverment turkish cypriots when they wanted to locate some of their own between july and the final cease fire in late august this answer seems to satisfy the international community the un and the vasilu goverment since he did not make it an issue for the peace talks also i am not aware of any un condemnation against turkey about any missing greek cypriot are you btw do you mean that nicos sampson had a bloodless coup d eta and nobody got hurt in those events as of the few photos which you refer to there are more than a few there are photos not only of greek cypriot soldiers being rounded up but also others in the prison camp in turkey like i said before there is even a different opinion among greek cypriots for this myth the officers in turkish army who governed the adana pow camp must be hell of clever dudes to cover up their tracks i hope turkish army does t have same type of morons for the security of turkiye however this must a good subject for a movie script one should inform oliver stone about this of course not the justice was served well if and when the bosnian pleas are answered who s going to dare to ask what happens to those masterminds behind the ethnic cleansing idea they are known today as eoka b masterminds were known in to everybody and are doing it openly even giving tv interviews it may take same time as it was for the eoka b case however the justice will be served again akgun comparing the actions of the serbians in bosnian with the actions of turkey in cyprus is not something i would do if i were a turk i thought that the serbians were the savages the inhumane beasts etc etc c akgun michalis syrimis if this is what you understood from the paragraph above you better let your computer system administrator check the character conversion tables in your system if yours are ok i should inform mine c akgun
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9,998 |
talk.politics.mideast
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re reasons was re was go hezbollah in article apr unocal com stssdxb st unocal com dorin baru writes now about tough talk and arrogance we are adults aren t we do you listen to tough talk of american politicians or switch the channel i guess i didn t make my point clear in the case of israel government it is not only tough talk for its intimidation policy after all not many people are intimidated just by talking here how it goes tough talks followed by aggressive actions followed by taking pride of those actions and bragging about them
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9,999 |
talk.politics.mideast
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re deriving pleasure from death them by the way i do not applaud the killing of any human being including prisoners sentenced to death by our illustrious justice department peace marc boy you really are a stupid person our justice department does not sentence people to death that s up to state courts again get a brain
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