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randy weaver trail day this was posted to the firearms politics mailing list hi folks thursday april marked day of the trial this day marked the first testimony of the trial deputy u s marshal larry cooper took the stand for the prosecution the short version is that his testimony was consistent with the opening statements for the prosecution cooper testified that he had arrived in spokane washington on august to participate in a surveillance operation with five other deputies near the weaver cabin the team was using night vision equipment for surveillance and split up into two teams of three people the six later met at an observation point above the cabin after this deputies cooper william degan and arthur roderick began a descent to scout further possible surveillance sites cooper told the court that roderick threw two large rocks into a gully to see whether the weaver family dogs would respond striker the weaver s yellow lab started toward them barking loudly roderick led the three in a run from the area they ran through some dense woods into an open area called the fern field with the dog in pursuit by this time kevin harris and samuel weaver had joined the chase the surveillance team had reached a y in the road cooper decided that they should take cover in the woods because otherwise they would be an easy target and might be shot in the back as degan reached the y he spotted randy weaver coming down the road from the cabin ahead weaver was startled but did not fire at this moment striker reached degan and cooper had to fend him off with his gun it is unclear whether this means he clubbed the dog or shot the dog both cooper and degan then took cover in the woods according to cooper kevin harris and samuel weaver continued walking down the road apparently not noticing the two after they had passed by on the road degan got up on one knee raised his gun and shouted stop u s marshal harris then brought the weapon around at hip level and fired he didn t bring the weapon up to eye level i saw bill s arm going back and i knew he had been hit cooper fired at harris and harris went down cooper then brought his weapon to bear on samuel but did not fire at this point cooper then heard two shots to his right samuel weaver looked in the direction of the shots yelled you son of a bitch and ran toward them cooper then realized that shots were coming at him from directly ahead so he fired a three round burst at the cabin at this point he then saw samuel weaver running toward the cabin when cooper reached degan he placed his first two fingers on degan carotid artery counted two or three beats and then his heart stopped shortly thereafter roderick and the other three marshals joined him they then all heard a large burst of gunfire from the area around the cabin on cross examination david nevin questioned the point of throwing rocks into the gulley asking you wanted to lure that dog out so you could shoot that dog didn t you nevin also pointed out that in last september s testimony cooper had claimed that he spotted weaver after the dog had left him cooper claimed that he had gone over the events in his head and decided that thursday s account was correct nevin continued the cross examination by asking what cooper would have done had an armed man dressed in full camouflage jumped out of the woods at him no answer was available friday april marks continued cross examination of cooper notes there was no coverage of protestors drew ron phillips crphilli hound dazixca ingr com senior customer engineer intergraph electronics east evelyn avenue voice mountain view ca fax
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re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in c sv r hfa news cso uiuc edu irvine uxh cso uiuc edu brent irvine writes and quotes a lot of stuff unnecessarily in article hydra gatech edu glenns eas gatech edu writes worth posting again hey gang it s not about duck hunting or about dark alleys it s about black clad helmeted and booted troops storming houses and violating civil rights under color of law are you ready to defend your constitution its also about crazy fatigue clad survivalist types blasting the snot out of people who accidentally stray onto his land in the name of self defense don t get too self righteous mr gun toter ain t got a pair of fatigues and i don t blast people wandering aimlessly i ask them what they re doing there i only blast people who display obvious violent intent like black clad men with weapons climbing thru second story windows or people who break down the door instead of knocking or people who knock my house down with tanks and set it afire sound familiar yet riddle me this why the hell are the convicted criminals in ohio getting the kid glove treatment and the bd s are burned alive without a trial put aside who started the blaze i still think any decent shyster can make a case for cruel and unusual punishment playing the sounds of tortured rabbits over the loudspeakers where s the spca in all this oh and that s mister gun toter sir to you bucko just because you choose to abandon your rights leave mine the hell alone thankyouverymuch glenn r stone glenns eas gatech edu impeach clinton reno the case is prima facie
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re criminals machineguns in article u uicvm uic edu jason kratz u uicvm uic edu writes people are getting killed by gang violence every day every single day i hear about more people getting killed by gang violence and see some of the weapons that are being confiscated is kratz claiming that he can reliably visually distinguish an m from an ar that he can see the difference between a semi auto and a full auto uzi that he can see the difference between the various versions some full auto some semi auto only of the m if so i d love to hear the details if only because they ll demonstrate that kratz is blowing smoke considering that one can design a gun so that it looks just like another gun yet have very different properties and that that s quite common most kids in my neighborhood were quite young when they figured out that my parents car wasn t much like richard petty s even though it looked just like it except for the paint job things must have been different with kratz sure it s on tv but why does that make a difference no it doesn t but that s irrelevant if visual inspection of the outside worked tv would be acceptable but since it doesn t the fact that it s just as good as seeing in person doesn t mean much andy gave kratz a chance to back down on this in private
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weaver trial update i ve been running a daily summary of the randy weaver kevin harris trial from here in boise these summaries are sent primarily to mailing lists however i was wondering if people would be interested in seeing them here post or email drew betz gozer idbsu edu brought into your terminal from the free state of idaho when you outlaw rights only outlaws will have rights spook fodder fema nsa clinton gore insurrection nsc semtex neptunium terrorist cia mi mi kgb deuterium
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re need info on and suicide for refutation here s something preston covey professor of ethics at cmu wrote from preston k covey covey andrew cmu edu subject gun stats mortal risks date mon feb est folks hail from the nether world on february th the wall street journal carried a front page article by erik larson entitled armed force i felt a reply was in order to his citation of the notorious scare stat that a gun is times more likely to kill than to protect i sent the following to the wsj gun stats mortal risks preston k covey erik larson s even handed article on paxton quigley armed force wsj cites the world s most notorious statistic regarding guns in the home a pioneering study of residential gunshot deaths in king county washington found that a gun in the home was times more likely to be used to kill its owner spouse a friend or child than to kill an intruder the times stat is everywhere these days it has grown in media lore like the proverbial urban myth it was inflated by one pugilistic talk show pundit to given the shock value of the finding the conclusion of the new england journal of medicine nejm study is remarkably understated the advisability of keeping firearms in the home for protection must be questioned responsible people should indeed question the risks and benefits of bringing a firearm into their home but what we need to know is this what exactly are the risks and benefits the nejm testimony is neither the whole truth about the benefits nor nothing but the truth about the risks further as with motor vehicles we want to know what control do we have over the risks and benefits and as with the risks of cancer or heart disease or auto accidents how can we minimize the risks like raw highway death tolls the nejm stat is not very helpful here the nejm finding purports to inform us but it is framed to warn us off it is widely promulgated in the media as a scare stat a misleading half truth whose very formulation is calculated to prejudice and terrify the frightful statistic screams for itself the risks far outweigh the benefits yes what fool would run these risks if your car were times more likely to kill you a loved one a dear friend or an innocent child than to get you to your destination should you not take the bus uncritical citation puts the good name of statistics in the bad company of lies and damned lies surely we can do better where lives are at stake let s take a closer look at this risky business the times stat of the nejm study is the product of dividing the number of home intruders aggressors justifiably killed in self defense the divisor into the number of family members or acquaintances killed by a gun in the home the dividend the divisor of this risk equation is in the study s five year sample there were intruders and other cases of self defense the dividend is in the study there were accidental deaths criminal homicides and suicides divided by yields there were a total of gun related deaths in king county between and so the study leaves deaths outside of homes unaccounted the nejm s notorious times statistic is seriously misleading on six counts the dividend is misleadingly characterized in the media the or acquaintances of the study who include your friendly drug dealers and neighborhood gang members is equated to friends the implication is that the offending guns target and kill only beloved family members dear friends and innocent children deaths may all be equally tragic but the character and circumstance of both victims and killers are relevant to the risk these crucial risk factors are masked by the calculated impression that the death toll is generated by witless waltons shooting dear friends and friendly neighbors this is criminological hogwash the study itself does not distinguish households or environs populated by people with violent criminal or substance abuse histories where the risk of death is very high versus households inhabited by more civil folk for example people who avoid high risk activities like drug dealing gang banging and wife beating where the risk is very low indeed in actuality negligent adults allow fatal but avoidable accidents and homicides are perpetrated mostly by people with histories of violence or abuse people who are identifiably and certifiably at high risk for misadventure to ignore these obvious risk factors in firearm accidents and homicides is as misleading as ignoring the role of alcohol in vehicular deaths by tautology neither gun deaths nor vehicular deaths would occur without firearms or vehicles but the person and circumstance of the gun owner or driver crucially affect the risk one misleading implication of the way the nejm stat is framed is that the mere presence of a gun in the home is much more likely to kill than to protect and this obscures indeed disregards the role of personal responsibility the typical quotation of this study unlike larson s attributes fatal agency to the gun a gun in the home is times as likely to kill the center to prevent handgun violence a major promulgator of the nejm statistic uses this particular formulation we can dispense with the silly debate about whether it s people or guns that accomplish the killing again by tautology gun deaths would not occur without the guns the question begged is how many deaths would occur anyway without the guns in any case people are the death dealing agents the guns are their lethal instruments the moral core of the personal risk factors in gun deaths are personal responsibility and choice due care and responsibility obviate gun accidents human choice mediates homicide and suicide by gun or otherwise the choice to own a gun need not condemn a person to nejm s high risk pool the gun does not create this risk by itself people have a lot to say about what risk they run with guns in their homes for example graduates of paxton quigley s personal protection course do not run the touted times risk any more than skilled and sober drivers run the same risks of causing or suffering vehicular death as do reckless or drunk drivers undiscriminating actuarials disregard and obscure the role of personal responsibility and choice just as they disregard and obscure the role of socio economic criminological and other risk relevant factors in firearm related death this is why we resent insurance premiums and actuarial consigment to risk pools whose norms disregard our individualities fortunately nothing can consign us to the nejm risk pool but our own lack of choice or responsibility in the matter suicide accounts for of the deaths by gun in the home in the nejm study as against the total deaths by gun in king county including those outside the home in house suicides are of the total death toll which is closer to the roughly proportion found by other studies suicide is a social problem of a very different order from homicide or accidents the implication of the nejm study is that these suicides might not occur without readily available guns it is true that attempted suicide by gun is likely to succeed it is not obviously true that the absence of a gun would prevent any or all of these suicides this is widely assumed or alleged but the preponderance of research on guns and suicide actually shows otherwise that this is wishful thinking in all but a few truly impulsive cases see bruce l danto et al the human side of homicide columbia university press charles rich et al guns and suicide american journal of psychiatry march if suicides were removed from the dividend of the nejm study s risk equation the times stat would deflate to six the inclusion of suicides in the nejm risk equation like the causes durability or interdiction of suicidal intent itself is a profoundly debatable matter quotations of the nejm study totally disregard this issue citations of the nejm study also mislead regarding the estimable rate of justifiable and excusable homicide most measures like the nejm homicide rate are based on the immediate disposition of cases but many homicides initially ruled criminal are appealed and later ruled self defense in the literature on battered women immediate case dispositions are notorious for under representing the rate of justifiable or excusable homicide time s january cover story on women fighting back reported one study s finding that of women who appeal have their murder convictions thrown out time s july cover story on a week of gun deaths reported of the domestic cases as shootings by abuse victims but only of the homicides were reported as self defense in a may update time reported that of the homicides had eventually been ruled self defense in time s sample the originally reported rate of self defense was in error by a factor of four the possibility of such error is not acknowledged by promulgators of the nejm statistic while both the dividend and the product of the nejm risk equation are arguably inflated the divisor is unconscionably misleading the divisor of this equation counts only aggressors who are killed not aggressors who are successfully thwarted without being killed or even shot at the utility of armed self defense is the other side of the coin from the harms done with guns in homes what kind of moral idiocy is it to measure this utility only in terms of killings do we measure the utility of our police solely in terms of felons killed as opposed to the many many more who are otherwise foiled apprehended or deterred should we not celebrate let alone count those cases where no human life is lost as successful armed defenses the question posed to media that cite the nejm scare stat is this why neglect the compendious research on successful armed defense notably by criminologist gary kleck point blank guns and violence in america aldine de gruyter kleck s estimations of the rate and risk of defensive firearm use are based on victimization surveys as well as other studies the rate is high about one million a year and the risk is good gun defenders fare better than anyone either those who resort to other forms of resistance or those who do not resist dividing one million gun defenses a year by annual gun deaths from self defense homicides suicides and accidents yields thus we can construct a much more favorable statistic than the nejm scare stat a gun is times more likely to be used to defend against assault or other crime than to kill anybody of course kleck s critics belittle the dividend of this calculation what is good news for gun defenders is bad news for gun control we should indeed question the basis and method of kleck s high estimation of defensive firearm use as i have questioned the nejm statistic clearly the issue of how to manage mortal risks is not settled by uncritical citation of statistics one thing troubles me still we can hardly escape the unquestioned nejm scare stat in our media but we hardly ever find kleck s good work mentioned even critically larry cipriani l v cipriani att com
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senator patty murrey s tax proposal if you haven t heard yet us senator patty murrey a mom in tennis shoes is planning to introduce legislation to tax all handgun transactions and increase dealer licnese costs in order to raise money to cover the costs of un insured shooting victums she plans to start with per year dealer fees and or so depending on the type of firearm per gun transaction she plans to make it federal she was elected in washington state under the trade mark as just a mom in tennis shoes she can be written to via the united states senate washinton dc she is looking for your tennis shoes so if you have a pair please send them to her with your feelings regarding this tax she claims she has heard little from the opposition lets inundate her bigot the definition of a bigot is a conservative winning an argument
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re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article c stlg fwq news cso uiuc edu irvine uxh cso uiuc edu brent irvine writes sorry guy you got it wrong atf was pumping tear gas into the compound the branch davidians going along with their apocolyptic faith set their own compound on fire killing all but or so no children survived seeing as how people are willing to quote the fbi quoting cultists who just yesterday were deranged and not to be trusted hmm the fbi or the cultists i think i ll quote the bbc quoting actually voice interview one of the two british survivors he claimed that the fire started when the tanks caused an internal wooden wall roof to collapse knocking over kerosene lamps and that they had no suicide plan maybe true partly true or false alan greig janet a greig uk ac dct dundee institute of technology internet a greig dct ac uk tel int never underestimate the power of human stupidity
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government exlanations for waco when you have no principles you can t admit that someone else might and everyone who acts differently from what you expect can only be a nutcase dave feustel n myi feustel netcom com i m beginning to look forward to reaching the allocation of taxes to pay for the interest on the national debt at that point the federal government will be will go out of business for lack of funds
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re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article c tenu f ns nodak edu green plains nodak edu bill green writes and a few other questions like i said i believe the actions taken in general were proper but i still have some reservations we ve heard a lot of talk about brainwashing in waco but the brainwashing of the general population never ceases to amaze me here is an example of action being taken which results in the worst possible outcome and despite people s deep intuition telling them something is wrong the programming will still cut in and say that the agents probably acted in good faith no they didn t they either did not have enough information to act in good faith or else they acted knowing the risk sums up human stupidity all over and one of these days it will destroy the fucking planet oh sorry didn t think they would respond by launching a strike all our best calculations told us they were bluffing alan greig janet a greig uk ac dct dundee institute of technology internet a greig dct ac uk tel int never underestimate the power of human stupidity
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re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article apr mcs kent edu mhamilto nimitz mcs kent edu the lawnmowerman writes in article r j l t transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com c d tavares writes in article apr mcs kent edu mhamilto nimitz mcs kent edu the lawnmowerman writes oh then i guess that shooting those kind of babies is all right you sick bastard cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet why thanks for your reply to my post by the way i never never ever said that it was right to shoot those kind of babies however it was the branch davidian people in there that insisted on staying there with their savior yeah right budy boy because he had brain washed them into believing that what ever he says is the truth even if means that they are to give up their lives for his cause therefore it is davids fault and not the atf s who gave them to days to get out this was days to many for me and for goodness sake if they had fired a cruise missile at the compound more people would have come out alive it was obvious to anyone with the remotest contact with reality that such an outcome was likely not just possible however the fire started as mr lawnmower you seem to have already entered your own little virtual reality i guess you can t be expected to understand things in the real universe alan greig janet a greig uk ac dct dundee institute of technology internet a greig dct ac uk tel int never underestimate the power of human stupidity
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re batf fbi murders almost everyone in waco today in article c siaj ks news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes so why didn t the bd s leave when the gas was first introduced much earlier in the morning didn t they care about the children why didn t they release the children weeks ago because most of the children were with their parent s do you understand that concept here s a bunch of people who believe in their minds that the forces of satanic evil are outside and you expect them to hand over their own children were you born that stupid or does it take a lot of effort alan greig janet a greig uk ac dct dundee institute of technology internet a greig dct ac uk tel int never underestimate the power of human stupidity
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re batf fbi murders almost everyone in waco today in article apr guinness idbsu edu betz gozer idbsu edu andrew betz writes in article c rynw iz news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes and i suppose the fbi also prevented them from coming out with their hands up while national tv cameras watch watch from where two miles away far enough away that whatever really happenned must be explained through the vengeful filter of a humiliated agency that said quote enough is enough as i understand it was considered unsafe for the tv networks to get any closer surely the networks can judge the risks of reporting for themselves i haven t noticed cnn being banned from baghdad hotels yet despite the all too real risk of having a cruise missile land in the lobby incidentally has that ever been explained or are we to assume that out of the whole of the city an off course missile just happened to hit that hotel at a probability of about in some very large number unsafe for who i wonder alan greig janet a greig uk ac dct dundee institute of technology internet a greig dct ac uk tel int never underestimate the power of human stupidity
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re batf fbi murders almost everyone in waco today in article apr guinness idbsu edu betz gozer idbsu edu andrew betz writes betz gozer idbsu edu brought into your terminal from the free state of idaho when you outlaw rights only outlaws will have rights spook fodder fema nsa clinton gore insurrection nsc semtex neptunium terrorist cia mi mi kgb deuterium if you really want to trigger the scanners then move the keywords above the signature start bit you ll only trip them once in a sig plus every so often it will flag one for human intervention just to be sure i might not be being serious alan greig janet a greig uk ac dct dundee institute of technology internet a greig dct ac uk tel int never underestimate the power of human stupidity
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re who s next mormons and jews this is a stretch in fact a great many of the persecuted indians were christian a great many it would be simpler to state the obvious that white people wanted land the indians dominated or threatened i really don t think the government cared a hill of beans about the indians religion my native american girlfriend asks if the government really doesn t care a hill of beans about our religion how come they re still busting us for it in oregon washington and a few other places you d be a christian too if the u s army marched you into church at gunpoint are you saying that the indians who became christians did so because the us army marched them into church at gunpoint this will be news to the indians of the great lakes and upper mississippi basin of the southwest of mexico and south america who converted even before there was such a thing as the us are you saying that indians are incapable of coming to a decision themselves about their religion without being forced to at gunpoint what about the christian cherokees who were given the boot by the us government after the civil war because the cherokee nation gave mild support to the confederacy since they themselves owned black slaves no reducing it all to a matter of religion is to support a much too narrow view of history i ve never heard of a single treaty whether broken by the us government or not were any not that said if you guys convert to christianity you get to keep all the land you claim no treaties were invariably about land it meant ceding indian claims to the government sometimes in return the us government promised the hunter gatherer tribes and plenty of tribes were already farming for centuries but we don t hear about non plains indians in movies food and training in return for taking up a non nomadic existence promises of course which all to often proved empty
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re riddle me this in article r lp inn mojo eng umd edu chuck eng umd edu chuck harris wa uqv writes in article apr jupiter sun csd unb ca j jupiter sun csd unb ca fuller m writes does a not harmful gassing mean that you can with a little willpower stay inside indefinitely without suffering any serious health problems if so why was cs often employed against tunnels in vietnam what is the difference anyway cs tear gas was used in vietnam because it makes you wretch so hard that your stomach comes out thru your throat well not quite that bad but you can t really do much to defend yourself while you are blowing cookies chuck harris wa uqv chuck eng umd edu interesting after several hours worth of exposure do you still posess the presence of mind to be able to determine how to escape from an inferno surrounding you in other words is it possible that the prolonged gassing disoriented the wackos enough that possibility of escape was rendered questionable
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cost benefit analysis was fbi director s statement in article apr twisto eng hou compaq com costley solo eng hou compaq com brett costley said sigh i just don t understand why they couldn t have waited koresh co out jlpicard austin ibm com uh maybe because it was costing hundreds of thousands of dollars a day to just sit and wait yeah we don t want to spend too much money preserving lives after all escpecially when they re all just a bunch of crazy fanatic cultists anyway instead of normal people the above is supposed to be dripping with sarcasm but i m too burned out right now get it burned out ha ha to tell if it s working look folks what david koresh and his followers were was broken it takes a certain amount of flexibility and insanity to survive in this world and they didn t have enough of it and that wasn t their fault so please stop dancing on their graves okay william december starr wdstarr athena mit edu
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re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article c sv hjy news cso uiuc edu irvine uxh cso uiuc edu brent irvine writes in article r j n t transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com c d tavares writes in article r tp em bigboote wpi edu mfrhein wpi wpi edu michael frederick rhein writes napalm then let the wood stove inside ignite it as someone else has pointed out why would the stove be in use on a warm day in texas do you eat all your food cold ever hear of electric ovens or microwaves very popular electric stoves outside metro areas especially ever hear about cutting off the electricity that was done how effective is an electric stove then al standard disclaimer
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re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article c tenu f ns nodak edu green plains nodak edu bill green writes just to shed some light on the fire it was widely reported ap etc that there were several witnesses to bd folks starting the fires it has also been reported that the fires broke out in several places at once which rules out a bradley knocking over a lamp etc as the cause widely reported eh remember this has had a news blackout since day the fbi is the single sole source of these rumors it may be the truth but it may not be we may never know we must question it though why no media coverare what were they hiding what i would like to see is some serious discussion of this incident i believe the moves made were right and proper but i still have some problems with some of the tactics after watching the abc special on it tonight as well as cnn and nightline i question some of the atf and fbi actions could it have been possible to have taken koresh outside the compound at some time before the feb th raid it would seem so could a further wait have resulted in a different outcome they would still be alive today another day is another chance were fbi actions blaring loudspeakers etc the right course of action i think it contributed to the outcome folks that are sleep deprived tend not to think clearly and a few other questions like i said i believe the actions taken in general were proper but i still have some reservations i feel strongly they were not proper one other point i m no fan of janet reno but i do like the way she had the balls to go ahead and take full responsibility seems like the waffle boy had problems figuring out just where he stood on the issue as expected if it had come out well he would not have hesitated to take full credit jim jmd handheld com i m always rethinking that there s never been a day when i haven t rethought that but i can t do that by myself bill clinton april if i were an american as i am an englishman while a foreign troop was landed in my country i never would lay down my arms never never never william pitt earl of chatham nov
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re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article c tki c s rice edu fontenot ravl rice edu dwayne jacques fontenot writes in c tenu f ns nodak edu green plains nodak edu bill green writes just to shed some light on the fire it was widely reported ap etc that there were several witnesses to bd folks starting the fires it has also been reported that the fires broke out in several places at once which rules out a bradley knocking over a lamp etc as the cause consider this the bds had more than one lamp the tanks made more than one hole in the building did anyone else notice on the video that it appeared that wherever there was smoke coming out of the building there was a tank nearby the fact that it appears that fires started in several places does not rule out anything i watched it live and have re watched it several times and from the press vantage point there was only one starting point visible where the tank punched in on the windward side and the winds whipped that fire across the whole dry wooden structure in minutes faned by the mph gusts and the hueys if there were other fires started they were not visible nor were they needed to cause the flame progression i observed also where are these several witnesses the way i heard it from the fbi spokesman on cnn the witnesses were all people driving the tanks all witnesses get thier paychecks from the fbi one other point i m no fan of janet reno but i do like the way she had the balls to go ahead and take full responsibility seems like the waffle boy had problems figuring out just where he stood on the issue too bad nothing will happen to her or him the fbi and the media have done their job well yep they media has endorsed the fbi version without question sad dwayne jacques fontenot jim jmd handheld com i m always rethinking that there s never been a day when i haven t rethought that but i can t do that by myself bill clinton april if i were an american as i am an englishman while a foreign troop was landed in my country i never would lay down my arms never never never william pitt earl of chatham nov
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re re guns gone good riddance iftccu talk politics guns jason kratz u uicvm uic edu pm apr surrender your arms soon enough officers will be around to collect them resistance is useless they will overwhelm you one at a time listen buddy if you re going to quote star trek get the quote right it was resistance is futile get it right the next time sounds like a vogon quote to me perhaps you should read more widely instead of watching that idiot box rick
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re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors from article qvjh innh l hp col col hp com by dduff col hp com dave duff nut case panics jumps the gun on the net before getting facts straight brilliant i like it dave holden phys dept email keele university phd uk ac keele seq keele staffs england x
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re my gun is like my american express card thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio no writes i don t remember the figures exactly but there were about deaths in texas in that was caused by guns this is more than those beeing killed in car accidents yes there could be that low sentences or high poverty could influence the figures but they re still pretty high right i also believe texas has some of the most liberal gun laws in usa in texas you cannot carry a handgun period either concealed or open and your numbers are misleading they include suicides and accidents the real number from the department of public safety murders non neg hom car fatalities texas only has liberal gun laws as far as purchasing a firearm aside from that it s probably more restrictive than most states as far as carry goes one state don t remember which texas tried to impose a rule that you could only buy one gun each month think you all know what happened the state was virginia and the law passed i respect the right to defend yourself but that right should not inflict on other people that right only inflicts on those who threaten my rights to life liberty the pursuit of happiness etc in the first place i am not a criminal and i don t indiscriminately fire my weapons at random so please explain how i am inflicting anything on other people this is not a signature it s merely a computergenerated text to waste bandwith and to bring down the evil internet thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio no aaron arc cco caltech edu
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re rewording the second amendment ideas dfo vttoulu tko vtt fi foxvog douglas writes nerve gas and mustard gas are well defined other poisonous gasses should be individually banned only if it can be shown that there is no use not related to weaponry licenses should be available for research purposes on such chemicals i am not a lawyer but these ideas could certainly be a basis for definitions i hope you realize how trivial it is to manufacture these compounds given about k in lab equipment and chemicals which are commercially available and given the knowledge that i have graduating bs ch i could synthesize enough of these compounds to make a serious dent in the population of several major us cities as also noted the knowledge is there for the production of nuclear weapons it s not even that restricted the only thing is the expense now i m not going around making these things but it s not cause of any law i simply don t get any marginal benefit out of killing anyone any law you enact in this respect is only going to give you the ability to add a charge against someone who does make and use said weapons in the case of chemical agents i seriously doubt that you would even know that someone had set up a lab until after the weapons had been used part of the trouble with the chemical weapons ban treaty between the us and the ussr is that many of the precursors to chemical weapons such as gb and sarin etc is that they have very valid commercial uses and it is very easy to divert those precursors to chemical weapons manufacture without anyone knowing about it dan sorenson dod z dan exnet iastate edu viking iastate edu isu only censors what i read not what i say don t blame them doug foxvog douglas foxvog vtt fi aaron arc cco caltech edu
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reference needed does anybody have any solid data on how many legally owned versus illegally owned firearms are used in crime i know the number of legally owned guns used in crime is small but i would like a number and a reference if possible data should be e mailed to me open discussion should be directed to talk politics guns seth unlike cats dogs never scratch you when you wash them they just become very sad and try to figure out what they did wrong dave barry seth eliot dept of material science and engineering carnegie mellon univerity pittsburgh pa arpa eliot cmu edu or se andrew cmu edu bitnet se andrew cmccvb
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need senate bill numbers and house resolution numbers sorry for posting this here but noone has replied to my post from the politics side of the group i want to get involved in the fight to save our gun rights but first i need to get a little more educated i ve been reading all the magzines and books i can get my hands on and sifting through hundreds of messages here in the internet i want to obtain a complete list of senate bill and house resolution names numbers can anyone tell me how where to obtain this info surely there has to be a way to obtain copies of anti gun legislation from those s in washington any help is appreciated peter d nesbitt air traffic controller pnesbitt mcimail com oakland bay tracon cbr f pilot nra member ccx f s w magnum carrier
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re batf fbi murders almost everyone in waco today in article c tlxr xq news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes in article r g inneah clem handheld com jmd cube handheld com jim de arras writes in article c sou lnb news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes in article apr guinness idbsu edu betz gozer idbsu edu andrew betz writes in article c rynw iz news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes and i suppose the fbi also prevented them from coming out with their hands up while national tv cameras watch watch from where two miles away far enough away that whatever really happenned must be explained through the vengeful filter of a humiliated agency that said quote enough is enough please tell me what you think would have happened had the people come out with their hands up several weeks ago it didn t happen and who is responsible for it not happening certainly not the children koresh was calling the shots he was talking with his lawyer and the fbi since others were released safely there is no sane reason for keeping the children inside the compound the fbi and koresh were calling the shots and there were very sane reasons for keeping the children if they let them go the parents would never see them again that is not an easy choice in spite of you cold attitude about it scenario that is simplest and most plausible i do not generally believe in conspiracy theories that involve complicated and unlikely scenarios the fbi sent letters to martin luther king s wife insinuating that mlk was having an affair again please tell us exactly how much you trust our supposedly benevolent government more than someone who would not release children from the compound obviously you are an authority worshiper not at all are you a koresh worshiper i am a constitution worshiper you quite obviously eat anything the authorities feed you without doubt which makes you no different that a koresh worshiper i e more than david koresh vernon howell jesus christ i saw lengthy excerpts from an australian documentary made in that clearly showed that this was a cult give me a camera and time with you and i can present excerpts that show you to be a cult leader guarenteed thanks for my laugh of the day definitely a very silly supposition if you do not believe this you are truly naive it is not only possible it is easy i worked in the broadcast profession at a network station in the late s i know what i m saying here embarrasing footage is easy to get add a little sinister music and the right voice over and i ll have you mother agreeing to commit you you should at least view the whole documentary before you claim it as a source i would if i could the news show that showed the lengthy excerpts also had interviews with the filmmaker who made the documentary who basically confirmed what was shown in the excerpts from the time he spent at the compound in the news shows were looking for excerpts which backed their position do you think they would show excerpts which disproved their points i am not pleased with the batf handling of the affair i think they bungled it badly from the start but i don t think they are responsible for the fire which started in two different places two places eh you saw this or did the wonderful fbi tell you this i saw one place i believe that this was reported by local radio reporters on site a fire started in a three story tower at the same time as the two story window shown on the tv coverage the reports of multi starts came solely from the fbi anyone observing the fire from the available video would be hard pressed to see more than one point of fire which spread across the compound as a uniform rate the batf is by no means devoid of fault in the handling of this affair but to suggest that they may have intentionally started the fire is ludicrous i suspect that there were plenty of camerapeople willing to risk small arms fire to get some good footage these people were told to get the hell out of camera range why couldn t answer this one eh this is the most important question of all it is the root cause of all the other suspicion i thought about mentioning how reagan and the military treated the press in grenada and how that set the precedent but decided it wasn t worthy of discussion if the news reporter got shot you can bet his family would sue the government for letting him into the danger area no reported has ever sued the government for such a situation they know the dangers remember the batf invited the initial coverage and how about a simple remote controlled camera or two there were ways to provide media access the fbi obviously just didn t want any the root cause of suspicion in my mind is why people wouldn t flee a building that had numerous exits during the minutes time it took to burn down or why didn t they flee hours earlier when the tear gas was first introduced i can find no rational explanation for their behavior i can find several tear gas and smoke making it impossible to remove the barricades flames blocking exits to the saferooms perhaps the gun shots were from the fbi keeping them pinned in who knows jim jmd handheld com i m always rethinking that there s never been a day when i haven t rethought that but i can t do that by myself bill clinton april if i were an american as i am an englishman while a foreign troop was landed in my country i never would lay down my arms never never never william pitt earl of chatham nov
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re batf fbi murders almost everyone in waco today in article c tngt news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes in article r vqinneb clem handheld com jmd cube handheld com jim de arras writes in article c spov lre news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes in article r qsrinnc clem handheld com jmd cube handheld com jim de arras writes in article c s ds j news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes i agree that they deserved a trial they had more than days to come out and get their trial they chose to keep the children with them and to stay inside they chose to stay inside even after they were tear gassed i do not find these actions rational even noriega was smart enough to give up and go for the trial he deserved mr roby you are a government sucking heartless bastard unworthy of comment but apparently true my opinion only of course so your opinion is truth i see still mastering the language eh notice the use of apparently humans died yesterday humans who would not have died if the fbi had not taken the actions they did that is the undeniable truth i cried for them nor would they have died if they had come out with their hands empty that is undeniable truth no it is not it is possible the fbi planned for this to happen and the gunfire heard was the fbi keeping the folks inside i m not proposing this as the way it went down but just to point out that it s not undeniable that if they walked out yesterday they would be alive today you can believe that if you wish it is undeniable however that people have left the compound unharmed and alive earier in the standoff and since their leader was preaching that they would have an apocalypse you can not say undeniably that there wouldn t have been a mass suicide if the fbi had simply stayed outside and waited another days i m not denying that at all but every day is another chance for a good ending why push it mr roby you are going to die anyway why not today every moment of life is precious my heart bleeds just as much as yours for the children who were never released given days of ample opportunities to do so my heart also bleeds for people so blinded by religious devotion to not have the common sense to leave the compound when tanks came up and started dropping in tear gas early in the morning my heart bleeds for no one you are the bleeding heart and i m sure beyond any possible doubt that you do not feel for those people as i do you can not say the heartless things you have said if you did i am the heartless bleeding heart you are not making sense no you are the heartless bleeding heart a flaming liberal who cares deeply who feels your pain you seem to have no concern that someone would keep children inside this compound when they had days to let them out that sounds pretty heartless to me you have continually raised this issue without any understanding of the bonds between parent and child it is not easy to say a final goodbye to your children i do not think i could do it either if that makes me heartless so be it how many children do you have i have three i just heard on the news that some of the survivors regret they hadn t stayed in the inferno to prove their loyalty to koresh this makes me sad and sick it just makes me sad i never claimed koresh was an angel you seem to say they got what they deserved i do not think this however if they did set the fire which started in more than one place and spread very quickly then they got what they wanted and put into motion themselves they got what they wanted what kind of creature are you that you can believe this have you ever heard of jonestown the sad thing is the people inside the compound were the authority worshipers and their only authority was koresh howell if these people were able to think for themselves there would likely be a lot more survivors today koresh preached a fiery apocalypse as early as last year i made the same authority worshiper point about you a few lines back and once again jonestown however sick it was was doing ok until the authorities showed up and pushed a fragile person over the edge a bull in a china shop i see the batf is going to be investigated by the justice dept and likely by arlen spectre and congress this is good they have bungled the affair from the start we agree on this now lets have your god the fbi investigated too by all means the fbi should be investigated too btw i thought the second ammendment was god nope the constitution in total is for me if you think the rkba is all i m about you misjudge me jim jmd handheld com jim jmd handheld com i m always rethinking that there s never been a day when i haven t rethought that but i can t do that by myself bill clinton april if i were an american as i am an englishman while a foreign troop was landed in my country i never would lay down my arms never never never william pitt earl of chatham nov
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re blast them next time in article r l dv usenet ins cwru edu oldham ces cwru edu daniel oldham writes what happened in waco is not the fault of the batf if they would of had the proper equipment and personal then they could of captured the with the wod and the increased crime in the streets the batf is needed more now then ever if they blast away a few good fokes then that is with the arms build up in waco they needed to hit that compound with mega fire power they could of gone in there blasting and killed a few i hope this is a joke if not here s my response the batf has a history of no knock raids with poor evidence often resulting in innocent people being killed or suffering injury to person or property i will not support the batf until they clean up their act maybe as to equipment the batf has damn near anything it wants their faults were in intelligence military and civilian definitions apply tactics attacking during daylight methodology the fbi stated that it is against government policy to assault a position where there are non combatants potential hostages without attempting negotiations first and legality the batf s jurisdiction is taxes on firearms and tobacco they are a branch of the department of the treasury they have very curiously backed away from their claims of illegal weaponry to push the child abuse charges the batf has no jurisdiction over non firearms tobacco issues and the charges of child abuse had been investigated in the past with no violence and no validation this was a clear case of first the batf then the fbi having watched too many rambo movies my opinion is that the agent in charge should be charged with executing an illegal raid criminal negligence murder civil rights violations and breaking his her oath to uphold and defend the constitution of the us the warrant should be unsealed to reveal to the public what justification the batf thought it had in committing an armed assault on american citizens and while on the issue of investigating this issue the randy weaver case and the johnny lawmaster case should be investigated for batf wrongdoing james btw if the batf came busting in my windows with concussion grenades you could damn well bet i would return fire to the utmost of my ability james s cochrane when in danger or in doubt run in this space gt a prism gatech edu circles scream and shout for rent
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re impeach clinton reno in a previous article gs prism gatech edu glenn r stone says fact both janet reno and bill clinton have admitted responsibility even grief over the deaths in waco fact regardless of who started the fire there are more than enough things on tape to make a civil rights case against these two cruel and unusual punishment dying tortured rabbits on tape come to mind fact it is a federal felony to infringe civil rights under color of law where death is involved this offense carries a penalty of life in prison fact impeachment is allowable for high crimes and misdemeanors anything that s a federal felony should qualify conclusion we have no choice if we are an honest people but to impeach mr clinton and remove reno from office i heartily agree now that the batf warrant has been unsealed it is clear that clinton and reno supported an illegal raid did they not know this no authority for a no knock raid no authority to use helicopters no authority to search for a drug lab and apparently not even any authority to search for automatic weapons days of government lies
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re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in r cat a geraldo cc utexas edu mikey ccwf cc utexas edu writes cdt sw stratus com c d tavares writes mfrhein wpi wpi edu michael frederick rhein writes as someone else has pointed out why would the stove be in use on a warm day in texas do you eat all your food cold thank you for pointing out the obvious to people who so clearly missed it i can t stand it when people s first reaction is to defend the aggressor minor quibble the assualt and it was one began near dawn the fire did not break out for several hours i find it highly unlikely that the bd would be cooking lunch while armored vehicles punch holes in their house and are pumping in tear gas the lantern story makes more sense except the fire seemed to spread too quickly even given the nature of the buildings and the very high winds and it was daylight but i guess in the innner recesses it could be dark shutters probably closed as well which puts us back to the fbi did it or the bd did it or some other screw up occured which is quite possible the problem with the fbi as a monolithic entity doing it is that it requires everybody involved to keep their mouths shut while they tended to behave like total idiots that does not make them homocidal maniacs either and if it was one nutcase agent then it serves no purpose to blame the whole agency i can believe that a real nut case like a koresh would start such a fire but i m far from convinced he actually did so then again i rarely go off making blanket condemnations and pronouncments within hours of a very confusing incident over miles away semper fi jammer jim miller texas a m university and i don t speak for uh which is too bad because they could use the help become one with the student billing system be the student billing system power finds its way to those who take a stand stand up ordinary man rik emmet gil moore mike levine triumph
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batf fbi revenge jason kratz writing jk if they had rocket launchers and such as the press and gov claims why jk shouldn t they have done something what possible use would a religious cult jk have for a rocket launcher also is child abuse covered by the bill of jk rights this is taken a little out of context and i m not flaming jason it s just that this was the proverbial straw i grow a little weary of the allegations here the media people on the street that the bd s had all these horrible illegal weapons and other paraphenalia of destruction capable of blowing tanks feet into the air and then without missing a beat discuss how the bd s willfully commited mass suicide or killed their own less fanatical and then commited mass suicide etc etc if the bd s had all these things and intended to blow up their abode blow up waco blow up the entire country or whatever suits your fancy what happened to all the violence they were supposed to unleash why wouldn t they have gone out in the proverbial blaze of glory and come out shooting with an attitude of let s take as many of those dogs as possible with us instead they seemed to have preferred death to whatever they thought was in store for them at the government s hands it s totally immaterial whether they were all crazy all fanatics all followers of the antichrist haters of the government practicers of weird lifestyles or whatever they must have felt that they were being pressured into renouncing their beliefs however how strange or lunatic those beliefs might appear to you and me there is much precedent for such devotion to cause my conclusion at this point is that the authorities seriously misread their danger to society else why did the bd s not do as suggested above and or chose this incident to make some heinous point or satisfy some internal agenda up to and including ag j renbo using this as an opportunity to assert her manhood some people really do believe it is better to die than be subjected to what they perceive as the godless government when i force myself to not judge others by my own personal standards and beliefs i can almost admire their stand i surely believe in the constitution but i don t know that i have such strength of conviction as evidenced by the bd s olx obesa non cantatis ye olde bailey bbs v bis v bis houston texas yob sccsi com home of alt cosuard
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re rewording the second amendment ideas chemical weapons are not concidered a very effectiv weapon against millitary forces on civillians on the other hand that s one good reason for banning it you need vast amounts of chemicals to be affective so the best reason to have use it is price that s why it s called the poor mans a bomb any thoughts on bio weapons if this discusion is about civillians having chem weapons what should they use them on rob a bank this is not a signature it s merely a computergenerated text to waste bandwith and to bring down the evil internet thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio no
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re ax the atf in article r ito t transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com c d tavares writes it s hard to know what who to believe however the letter i received from the batf in response to one i sent to bentsen said that there was a search warrant and an arrest warrant check again you may find that the arrest warrant was issued after the first firefight the letter implies that both warrants were issued before the feb th shootout but doesn t say so exlicitly ack don
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re my gun is like my american express card in r efjinn jj gap caltech edu arc cco caltech edu writes thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio no writes i also believe texas has some of the most liberal gun laws in usa in texas you cannot carry a handgun period either concealed or open currently there is a bill before the texas legislature that would make it legal for some ordinary folks to carry concealed weapons i don t have the details sorry semper fi jammer jim miller texas a m university and i don t speak for uh which is too bad because they could use the help become one with the student billing system be the student billing system power finds its way to those who take a stand stand up ordinary man rik emmet gil moore mike levine triumph
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re wi and il firearms law questions question as i understand it in evanston il they have a ordinance banning handguns is there any way to get around this provision why don t you call the city and ask oak park also has an illegal handgun ban as well but does allow those with a collectors ffl to possess collectible handguns what would the penalty if you were found out be probably a fine in practical terms what if you used said handgun in a defensive shooting in your apartment there how would the city law apply to your impending trial for the shooting it wouldn t impede your defense at all there was an actual incident in oak park where a gas station owner engaged in a shootout with a handgun the grand jury decided not to presecute on the other hand a black man used an illegally owned handgun in oak park to defend himself and the village tried to make an example out of him an nra director who lived there made a stink about this and it was decided not to charge the guy of course pissing off anti gun police thugs has it s own drawbacks like when the oak park police chief came to his house and told him this is stepping over the line this could get dangerous for you whereupon the few black oak park police officers watched over his house to ensure that the white anti gun police chief and his anti gun cronies wouldn t f ck with him his home or family also what is il state law concerning short barreled weapons short barreled shotgun is what i would be interested in if a handgun were not available either that or a shortened mm carbine ie colt marlin l v cipriani states that the any other weapon category is allowed but the exact relationship between an ithaca auto burgular which i believe is in the any other weapon category and a chopped barrel h k hk class for sure is not clear to me one more thing what is the chance of getting a ccw permit in il without being rich or famous or related to the mayor in your dreams buddy as long as democrats reign in chicago illinois residents will always be disarmed and helpless in the streets politicians get around this by provisions in the law that allow them to carry concealed weapons voters in chicago are too stupid to vote these a holes out of office because the dems are always in power the illinois supreme court is always tilted to the democratic party s views on guns all candidates supported by political consultant david axelrod are anti gun which explains anti rkba crook county states attorney jack ass o malley being a so called republican get rid of the chicago democrats get rid of their members on the il judiciary and you got a fighting chance of a preemption law and a ccw law
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re need senate bill numbers and house resolution numbers try the firearms archive larry cipriani s instructions follow by the way thanks for the archive larry this year is the rd congress directory from watson yktnews watson ibm com newsgate watson ibm com news ans net howland r reston ans net bogus sura net darwin sura net dtix dt navy mil mimsy cbvox att com lvc thu apr article of talk politics guns path watson yktnews watson ibm com newsgate watson ibm com news ans net howland r reston ans net bogus sura net darwin sura net dtix dt navy mil mimsy cbvox att com lvc from lvc cbvox att com newsgroups talk politics guns subject information about the anonymous ftp rkba archive message id apr cbnews cb att com date apr gmt sender magnum mimsy umd edu organization ideology busters inc lines this is the index file for the anonymous ftp rkba archive the archive site has been moved and is now at godiva nectar cs cmu edu in the directory usr anon pub firearms politics rkba this archive is accessible only via anonymous ftp instructions for anonymous ftp are at the end of this file an email server is available at another site and as a result is not completely in sync with this archive to get the index for the rkba email server send get rkba index as the body of a message to listserv mainstream com for help send help if you have any additions or suggestions for improvement to the rkba archive please let me know larry cipriani att cbvox lvc or l v cipriani att com file rkba report of the subcommittee on the constitution of the committee on the judiciary united states senate ninety seventh congress second session february file congress nd hcr house concurrent resolution by mr crane january expressing the sense of the congress with respect to the right of all americans to keep and bear arms in defense of life or liberty and in pursuit of all other legitimate endeavors file congress nd hjr house joint resolution by mr major owens march proposing an amendment to the constitution of the united states repealing the second amendment to the constitution includes comments by owens entered into the congressional record file congress nd hr house bill by mr goodling february to amend title united states code to prohibit transfer of firearm to or possession of a firearm by a person convicted of a drug crime and to provide enhanced penalties for possession of a firearm during a drug crime file congress nd hr house bill by mr scheuer march to end the use of steel jaw leghold traps on animals in the united states file congress nd hr house bill by mr staggers march to amend title united states code to provide for the establishment of a national hotline which a federal firearms licensee may contact to learn if receipt of a handgun by a prospective transferee is prohibited and to require such a licensee to contact the hotline before the transfer of a handgun to a nonlicensee file congress nd hr house bill by mr gibbons march to prohibit the importation of semiautomatic assault weapons large capacity ammunition feeding devices and certain accessories file congress nd hr house bill by mr smith of florida april to amend title united states code to prohibit certain handguns which are unsuitable for lawful sporting purposes file congress nd hr house bill by mr hughes january to prohibit the possession transfer and certain exports of restricted weapons the manufacture of firearms capable of accepting a silencer or bayonet without alteration and the possession and transfer of large capacity ammunition feeding devices and for other purposes file congress nd hr house bill by mrs collins january to provide for the mandatory registration of handguns file congress nd hr house bill by mr cardin july to amend the public health service act to establish an entitlement of states and certain political subdivisions of states to receive grants for the abatement of health hazards associated with lead based paint and to amend the internal revenue code of to impose an excise tax and establish a trust fund to satisfy the federal obligations arising from such entitlement this bill would impose upto a pound tax on all new lead and pound tax on recycled lead file congress nd hr house bill by mr dornan january to amend the animal welfare act to prohibit dog racing and dog training involving the use of live animals as visual lure and to make such act applicable to facilities that are used for dog racing or dog race training file congress nd hr house bill the violent crime prevention act of file congress nd hr house bill by mr marlenee january to protect persons engaged in a lawful hunt within a national forest establishing an administrative civil remedy against individuals or groups intentionally obstructing impeding or interfering with the conduct of a lawful hunt and for other purposes file congress st hr house bill by mr gingrich february to provide swift and certain punishment for criminals in order to deter violent crime and rid america of illegal drug use file congress nd hr house bill by mr weiss january to prohibit the manufacture transfer or importation of caliber and caliber ammunition file congress nd hr house bill by mr rangel january to prohibit certain exports of fully automatic or semiautomatic assault weapons file congress nd hr house bill by mr cunningham april to amend title i of the omnibus crime control and safe streets act of to deny grant funds to states unless law enforcement officers are permitted to carry concealed firearms file congress nd hr house bill by mr schumer july to amend title united states code to expand the scope of the multiple firearms sales reporting requirement and to require that persons comply with state and local firearms licensing laws before receiving a federal license to deal in firearms file congress nd hr house bill by mr schumer august to impose criminal penalties upon the failure of a federal firearms licensee to report to appropriate authorities the loss or theft of a firearm from the inventory or collection of the licensee file congress nd hr house bill by mr feighan to require a waiting period before the purchase of a handgun also known as the brady bill file congress nd hr house bill by mr russo january to amend the internal revenue code of to provide that the excise tax on handguns will be transferred to a trust fund to be used for purposes of providing compensation to victims of crime and for other purposes file congress nd s senate bill by mr hatch january to provide procedures for calling federal constitutional conventions under article v for the purpose of proposing amendments to the united states constitution file congress nd s senate bill by mr lautenberg march to amend title united states code to permanently prohibit the possession of firearms by persons who have been convicted of a violent felony and for other purposes file congress nd s senate bill to require a waiting period before the purchase of a handgun file congress nd s senate bill by mr gore june to establish in the government printing office an electronic gateway to provide public access to a wide range of federal databases containing public information stored electronically file congress nd s senate bill by mr chafee june to prohibit the manufacture importation exportation sale purchase transfer receipt possession or transportation of handguns and ammunition with certain exceptions file congress nd s senate bill by mr mitchell september to amend title united states code to require a waiting period before the purchase of a handgun file congress st s senate bill by mr metzenbaum february to control the sale and use of assault weapons file congress nd s senate bill by mr moynihan january to prohibit the manufacture transfer or importation of caliber and caliber and millimeter ammunition file congress nd s senate bill by mr symms march to amend chapter title united states code to provide clarification of limitations on controls of firearms and to prohibit the use of federal funds to political subdivisions which implement certain gun control ordi nances file congress st s senate bill by mr deconcini to amend chapter of title united states code regarding assault weapons file congress nd s senate bill by mr moynihan april to prohibit the importation of semiautomatic assault weapons large capacity ammunition feeding devices and certain accessories file congress nd s senate bill by mr metzenbaum april to amend title united states code to authorize the consumer product safety commission to regulate the risk of injury associated with firearms file congress nd s senate bill by mr packwood april the amend the internal revenue code of to exempt small manufacturers producers and importers from the firearms excise tax file congress rd hcr house concurrent resolution by mr crane january expressing the sense of the congress with respect to the right of all americans to keep and bear arms in defense of life or liberty and in the pursuit of all other legitimate endeavors file congress rd hjr house joint resolution by mr owens january proposing an amendment to the constitution of the united states repealing the second amendment to the constitution file congress rd hr house bill by mr mazolli january to amend title united states code to require a waiting period before the purchase of a handgun file congress rd hr house bill by mr torricelli january to amend title united states code to prohibit the transfer of or more handguns to an individual in any day period file congress rd hr house bill by mrs collins january to provide for the manufacturer importer or dealer of a handgun or an assault weapon to be held strictly liable for damages that result from the use of the handgun or assault weapon file congress rd hr house bill by mr reynolds february to provide for the manufacturer or importer of a handgun or an assault weapon to be held strictly liable for damages that result from the use of the handgun or assault weapon and to amend the internal revenue code of to increase the excise tax on firearms and use a portion of the revenues from such tax to assist hospitals in urban areas to provide medical care to gunshot victims who are not covered under any health plan file congress rd hr house bill by mr schumer february to provide for a waiting period before the purchase of a hadgun and for the establishment of a national instant criminal background check system to be contacted by firearms dealers before the transfer of any firearm file congress rd s senate bill by mr moynihan january to prohibit the importation of semiautomatic assault weapons large capacity ammunition feeding devices and certain accessories file congress rd s senate bill by mr moynihan january to amend section of title united states code to require the keeping of records with respect to dispositions of ammunition and to require a study of the use and possible regulation of sales of ammunition file congress rd s senate bill by mr moynihan january to amend chapter of title united states code to prohibit the manufacture transfer or importation of caliber and caliber and millimeter ammunition file congress rd s senate bill by mr moynihan january to tax millimeter caliber and caliber bullets file congress rd s senate bill by mr lautenberg february to prohibit the transfer of or more handguns to an individual in any day period file congress rd s senate bill by mr metzenbaum february to amend title united states code to require a waiting period before the purchase of a handgun file gun free zones text of the gun free school zones act of from public law nov file aclu a collection of articles on the aclu s position on gun control included is aclu policy statement which gives the aclu interpretation of the second amendment file dcm info a collection of articles explaining the civilian marksmanship program in other words why does the united states department of defense sell battle rifles to civilians file dial dial and die by aaron zelman and jay simkin of jews for the preservation of firearms ownership jpfo file fija info the fully informed jury amendment and what it means to gun owners and the right to keep and bear arms file whitemanslaw white man s law by william r tonso from the december reason magazine file jefferson the first inaugural address of thomas jefferson nd president of the united states file jewishistory jewish history rufutes gun control activists by elliot rothenberg from the february american rifleman file law abiding the law abiding gun owner as domestic and acquaintance murderer from guns murders and the constitution a realistic assessment of gun control by don b kates february pp file second ideology the second amendment and the ideology of self protection by don b kates jr reprinted from constitutional commentary vol no winter c by constitutional commentary kates puts the second amendment and philosophies of self protection into a historical perspective file new understa toward a new understanding of the second amendment by david t hardy file to bear arms to bear arms for self defense our second amendment heritage by stephen p halbrook file no treason no treason the constitution of no authority by lysander spooner file resistance excerpts from the study crime control through the use of armed force by associate professor dr gary kleck florida state university school of criminology published in the february issue of social problems file waitper qna waiting period questions and answers by handgun control inc hci and citizens for safe government csg file warsaw the warsaw ghetto handguns against tyranny by dr david i caplan from february american rifleman file wethepeople supreme court interpretations of the second amendment file sc ftp how to retreive supreme court decisions via anonymous ftp file alternative policy alternative policy futures by franklin e zimring from the annals of the american academy of political and social science volume may published by the american academy of political and social science file embarassing nd amendment the embarassing second amendment by sanford levinson yale law journal volume pp file nra phone numbers for the nra many are toll free numbers file nradrugs a collection of articles on the nra s position on the war on drugs file fl aw part florida a w commission exec summary part file fl aw part florida a w commission exec summary part stockton the facts by martin l fackler md file iwba information about the international wound ballistics association martin fackler president file gunshyjudges gun shy judges by jacob sullum from the may issue of reason magazine file heatofmoment in the heat of the moment by james d wright file racist soil article gun control sprouts from racist soil by roy innis from the wall street journal file core policy bearing arms for self defense a human and civil right by roy innis national chairman congress of racial equality core file righttobear the right to bear arms by sanford levinson from the daily news ft walton beach fl file rock island united states of america v rock island armory us district court for the central district of il the court ruled that making a post machine gun is not illegal believe it or not file dalton united states of america v john william dalton us court of appeals tenth circuit the court ruled that owning or transferring a post machine gun is not punishable under the nfa believe it or not file waitdanger why gun waiting periods threaten public safety by david b kopel march file aw qna assault weapon questions answers by handgun control inc and citizens for safe government csg file ccw survey a state by state survey of carrying concealed weapons laws file us vs miller united states vs miller et al appeal from the district court of the united states for the western district of arkansas argued march decided may file presser the history of presser v illinois is a fascinating exercise of how politically based decisions on our constitutional rights have come back to haunt us file cia ncbh a column by neal knox presenting evidence that former cia agent edwin o welles played a major role in founding hci and ncbh file conphone a list of voice and fax phone number for representatives and senators file billofrights the first articles of amendment to the united states constitution file constitution the constitution of the united states of america file decl of indp the declaration of independence file dont wait criminals don t wait why should you from the nra exposes the fraudulent arguments made for waiting periods file external positive externalities of gun ownership by john kell from the freeman ideas on liberty october file english hist firearms legislation in great britain by jan a stevenson file simkin control criminals not guns by jay edward simkin found in the march or wall street journal file unabridged the unabridged second amendment by j neil schulman an interview with roy copperud retired professor of journalism at usc and author of american usage and style the consensus copperud offers his professional opinion on the meaning of the second amendment file uzitruth a letter from j harper wilson director fbi uniform crime reporting program to paul h blackman research coordinator of the nra stating that only one police officer of puerto rico was shot and killed with a semi automatic mm model a uzi file maketheirday how to make their day by don b kates jr and patricia terrell harris in the national review october kates and harris debunk several myths about firearms criminals and violence file two myths two myths of gun control from point blank guns and violence in america by gary kleck file aw not problem assault weapons aren t the problem by gary kleck published in the new york times tuesday september file oregon study oregon study of retail firearm sales and chl licensing file children fighting for children s hearts and minds by robert pew american rifleman april discusses how hci and it s center to prevent handgun violence have set out to use public schools as forums for their anti gun propaganda file gunssputter guns and sputter by james d wright from july issue of reason wright exposes the flaws in the new england journal of medicine study comparing the homicide rates of seattle and vancouver file nejm info a collection of articles and information on the new england journal of medicine vancouver seattle handgun crime comparison study see also the file gunssputter authored by james wright file dcstudy the new england journal of medicine dec pp editorials firearms and the killing threshold kassirer jerome p file dcstudy the new england journal of medicine dec pp special article effects of restrictive licensing of handguns on homicide and suicide in the district of columbia loftin colin mcdowall david wiersema brian cottey talbert j file nejm editorial the new england journal of medicine nov pp editorial firearm injuries a call for science mercy james a houk vernon n file nejm letters the new england journal of medicine may pp correspondence handgun regulations crime assaults and homicide a tale of two cities blackman paul h hagen tim morris david c stolinsky david c tirer samuel gryder john w kuziak john d sloan john h kellerman arthur l kellermann rivara fred p koepsell thomas reay donald t logerfo james p rice charles ferris james a gray laurel a mercy james a houk vernon n file suicide the new england journal of medicine feb pp special article firearm regulations and rates of suicide a comparison of two metropolitan areas sloan john henry rivara frederick p reay donald t ferris james a j kellermann arthur l file suicide the new england journal of medicine jul p correspondence firearm regulations and rates of suicide blackman paul h sloan john henry rivara frederick p kellermann arthur file totc the new england journal of medicine nov pp special article handgun regulations crime assaults and homicide a tale of two cities sloan john henry kellermann arthur l reay donald t ferris james a koepsell thomas rivara frederick p rice charles gray laurel logerfo james file nra cdc an open letter from paul h blackman of nra to the director office of scientific integrity review u s public health service detailing why they should evaluate the integrity and competency of firearms research conducted by and for the centers for disease control cdc file rkba what the rkba nnn files are all about the rkba nnn series are set of small lines typically postings that address common questions and myths about all aspects of firearms file rkba accidental deaths by firearms and by other means file rkba declining trend of accidental deaths by firearms file rkba homicide per capita in the us file rkba children and firearms file rkba annual firearm manufacture in the united states file rkba declaration of independence file rkba trend in weapons use for robberies file rkba reasons for homicide and non negligent manslaughter file rkba are firearms a leading cause of death of children file rkba is the united states the most violent nation file rkba complete list of all sources used for the rkba nnn series file cox study analysis of the cox atlanta journal constitution may article on assault weapons by james j baker of nra ila before the select committee on narcotics abuse and control u s house of representatives file feder txt the federalist papers as transcribed by project gutenberg file great quotes thomas jefferson quotes and more file civilian civilian possession of military firearms by richard a i munday from the january february issue of the uk handgunner file good go bad when good law abiding citizens go bad from uk handgunner no jan feb discusses how the rate of compliance of gun control laws is always very low even among otherwise law abiding citizens file tory national socialism tory national socialism by richard a i munday uk handgunner jul aug discusses the gun control leanings of socialists of the right file the big lie gun grabbers vs assault rifles the big lie by neal knox semi auto military styled assault rifles are not now nor have they ever been a threat to society these facts have been determined by the government but never released to the public file ff the founding fathers and the ak by sue wimmershoff caplan discuss the question if the founding fathers would have approved of the ak for civilian ownership file hcikkk handgun control inc the kkk by david kopel from the oct issue of gun world magazine discusses the parallels in the hate campaigns of the ku klux klan and handgun control inc file rkba orgs a list of organizations devoted to the preservation of the second amendment file victoria the gun law handbook for the state of victoria australia oct file nra purposes a summary of the nra s purposes and objectives and positions on some gun control issues file ktw a collection of articles relating to teflon coated armor piercing bullets file thompsoncenter the supreme court decision in the case united states of america v thompson center arms co file dmn gratia ccp concealed weapons can prevent tragedies like killeen s by dr suzanna gratia in the dallas morning news sunday april th file knox aw lies neal knox on how military style semi auto s are not a threat to public safety how they are not fundamentally different than ordinary hunting weapons and how the gun grabbers are exploiting the bad image this class of weapons has to enact further gun control file wsj crimestrik the nra mounts a militant campaign taking aim at criminal justice system by alix m freedman staff reporter of the wall street journal file med media gun prohibition in the medical literature telling the truth by edgar a suter md discusses anti gun bias in medical journals file toy guns court psychologist says toy guns are good for children from gun week glen david skoler court psychologist for the arlington county va claims toys of violence including toy guns are in fact good for children file awca appeal text of the th circuit court of appeals in the fresno rifle and pistol club challenge to california s roberti roos assault weapon control act of file lp rkba the right to keep and bear arms plank of the national platform of the libertarian party and a reproduction of the libertarian party brochure responsible gun ownership equal rights for america s gun owners the entire national platform of the lp is available via anonymous ftp on think com in the file pub libernet lp libertarian platform file let july an article from the july august issue of law enforcement technology with a survey of police officers on their views of gun control file nacp poll a study conducted by the national association of the chiefs of police nacp through its american law enforcement survey for in which chiefs of police sheriffs and law enforcement command personnel were polled with a list of questions it was determined the overwhelming majority of officers support the right of private arms ownership and agreed that gun bans had little effect on crime file hci advert a example of the propaganda used by hci in soliciting contributions file hci transcript a transcription of the hci video tape america needs a national handgun control policy file gartner michael gartner president of nbc news calls for a ban on handguns in this usa today thursday january th editorial file nra lp a resolution passed by the voting membership of the nra at its national convention in anaheim ca stating the nra will support third party candidates file cooley thomas m cooley ll d general principles of constitutional law in the united states of america rd ed a leading constitutional commentator discussed the rights protected by the second amendment file kilpatrick gun law might curb rising murder rate by james kilpatrick st louis post dispatch tuesday june kilpatrick expresses support for a national firearms law as proposed by c everett koop that is a requirement that gun owners pass a competency test among other things file vanity fair a summary of the page article on jim and sarah brady which appeared in the january issue of vanity fair magazine question was it true you wanted to get a gun to protect yourself against hinckley answer jim brady i had a gun file goldwin gun control is constitutional by robert a goldwin from the wall street journal edtorial page thrusday december file anniston two articles on a murder averted in anniston alabama by a man with a ccw permit the importance of this event is that it closely followed the murders by hennard in texas but the media did not cover anniston file staggers brady a survey of public support for the staggers instant background check and the brady waiting period the basic finding is that once the public understands the advantages of the instant background check vs the problems with the brady waiting period support for the brady waiting period diminishes greatly file brady vote how congress voted on the staggers instant background check and the brady waiting period file vs vote how congress voted on the volkmer sensenbrenner amendment to strike the new gun control sections from the administration crime bill file dc vote how the u s senate voted on s the repeal of the district of columbia s anti gun strict liability law file covey gun control trying the facts weighing the values a monograph based on crime inequality guns equity by preston k covey ph d director center for the advancement of applied ethics carnegie mellon university addresses the desirability of gun bans ethical aspects equity issues and other values at stake in the management of mortal risks deadly force and its instruments file assays of bias assays of bias on the second amendment the media elite by preston k covey director center for the advancement of applied ethics excerpts from a longer monograph file cleveland a critique of accidental firearm fatalities in a metropolitan county rushforth hirsch ford and adelson american journal of epidemiology pp this is the study that lies at the heart of the gun control claim that owning a firearm for self defense is too dangerous the claims that a defensive gun is x in this study times more likely to be used against an innocent person than in lawful self defense originated with this report in by robert i kesten file tiananmen lessons lessons from tiananmen square by neal knox reprinted from guns ammo september why the second amendment is so important even in todays more progressive era included is a description of the bonus march in washington dc in which gen douglas macarthur opposed unemployed wwi veterans lobbying for the government to immediately pay their promised veteran s bonus file forward trace california ffl dealer defies forward trace by neal talbot in the new gun week march details how the batf bullies ffl holders into giving batf copies of s in violation of federal law file justice stats handgun crime victims by michael r rand bureau of justice statistics statistician u s department of justice this bureau of justice statistics special report describes the key findings from an analysis of handgun crimes reported in the national crime survey for it describes the victims of hand gun sic crime how the handgun was used during the crime and the nature and extent of handgun crime injury it also provides information on handgun offenders the location of handgun crimes and whether the crime was reported to the police file chafee included are transcript of press conference with senator john chafee and former supreme court justice warren burger on s chafee s handgun ban also speaking was vernon jordan former member of the jimmy carter white house mayor sharon pratt kelly michael beard of national coalition to stop gun violence michael casserly executive director council of the great city schools dr carden johnston representing the american academy of pediatrics an article by neal knox in which he describes how sarah brady kicked out hci president charles orasin because of a disagreement on chafee s handgun ban an article on burger s support for s file alarmist view gun registration an alarmist view by jon vanwormer reprinted from the december guns ammo how an rkba moderate became a radical file fackler papers a list of articles by col martin l fackler m d f a c s wound ballistics lab and where to write for copies of them file gun war the great american gun war by barry bruce briggs the public interest no fall pp file george will repeal second amendment and save lives by george will file reeves drastic steps to end the war at home by richard reeves no date nor publication available placed in rkba archive studies prove gun control works by richard reeves from the kansas city star file canada ban list a reproduction of a brochure from the canadian department of justice listing newly prohibited and restricted firearms as of june also included is the point system used to determine if a firearm should be reviewed for possible banning file copkiller lyrics to the rock song cop killer by ice t on the album body count file cva a letter from the california voters alliance asking for support in their effort to defeat anti gun california assemblyman terry friedman co author of california s waiting period law for rifles and shotguns file astrology criminology s astrology the cdc approach to public health research on firearms and violence by paul h blackman ph d institute for legislative action national rifle association a paper presented at the annual meetings of the american society of criminology baltimore maryland november file aw panic the assault weapon panic political correctness takes aim at the constitution by eric morgan and david kopel published by the independence institute october file state rkba a collection of rkba provisions from state constitutions file too late chapter but then it was too late of they thought they were free the germans by milton mayer university of chicago press file militia code the legal definition of the militia of the united states of america taken from united stated code usc title section and section file legal mg crime report no of the firearms coalition of silver spring md by neal knox knox reports that a legally registered machine gun was used in a drug hit subsequent reports said charges were dropped for lack of evidence file hci cash hci donation records to us senators and congressmen file paulreverenet information about the paul revere net a network of nd amendment bulletin boards the paul revere network prn is a coast to coast network of committed grass roots gun rights activists who rely upon computer bulletin board systems for their primary mode of communication leroy pyle nra director and year san jose police veteran is founder and director of the prn based in san jose ca pyle s bbs currently hubs all network message traffic file gun talk information about the nra ila bulletin board gun talk file congressgrades a grading of congressmen based their votes on the brady bill hr staggers hr and the volkmer sensenbrenner amendment to strike the anti gun provisions from the house crime bill hr file lawmaster feds trash law abiding gun owner s home nra official journal march by richard e gardiner details how the batf raided the home of johnny lawmaster in search of a non existent unregistered m auto sear file point blank the concluding chapter to point blank by gary kleck file purdy rapsheet patrick purdy s criminal record file progundocs statement of purpose and contact information for doctors for integrity in research public policy file orlando a summary of the effects of the highly publicized orlando training program in which over women were trained in basic pistol marksmanship and the law of self defense file form signoff a letter from wayne miller chief national firearms act branch of batf stating that local law enforcement signoff on the atf form application for taxpaid transfer and registration of firearm i e machine gun is completely discretionary file badlands txt new zealand firearms control by robert badlands a paper presented at a conference on gun control held at melbourne university union theatre august the conference was sponsored by the sporting shooters association of australia file danto txt issues regarding gun control in america by bruce l danto a paper was presented at a conference on gun control held at melbourne university union theatre august the conference was sponsored by the sporting shooters association of australia file fine txt impediments to the purposeful reform of australian firearms laws by j d fine a paper presented at a conference on gun control held at melbourne university union theatre august the conference was sponsored by the sporting shooters association of australia file greenwd txt untitled paper by colin greenwood a paper presented at a conference on gun control held at melbourne university union theatre august the conference was sponsored by the sporting shooters association of australia file kates txt gun control recent research on the american experience by don b kates jr a paper presented at a conference on gun control held at melbourne university union theatre august the conference was sponsored by the sporting shooters association of australia file marsden txt gun control a banker s perspective by marsden a paper presented at a conference on gun control held at melbourne university union theatre august the conference was sponsored by the sporting shooters association of australia note this paper is almost impossible to read currently as the original would not scan well a more readable copy will be supplied later file backdoor back door gun control by peter alan kasler from the january issue of american survival guide magazine kasler discusses four examples of innocent people whose firearms are confiscated and or charged with a crime when none was committed as examples of how gun control is implemented in the real world file armed citizen the armed citizen feature from the american rifleman and the american hunter these stories show how firearms are indeed useful for self defense file botsford the case against gun control by david botsford file academia bias fighting anti gun bias in academia an article downloaded from the nra ila bbs gun talk file story of gun the story of a gun by erik larson from the atlantic january file hcr reports to the firearms coalition by neal knox all these files are named hcr then two numbers e g hcr for report no to the firearms coalition file whose txt whose side are they on freedom from war the united states program for general and complete disarmament in a peaceful world an official publication of the united states of america government file nccfa contact information for the national collegiate coalition for firearms awareness file canada some facts about canadian gun control laws gun ownership and violent crime file time letter time magazine s form letter response to criticism of their death by gun issue file gun in school health objectives for the nation weapon carrying among high school students united states edited by david dodell d m d proposes ways to reduce carrying of firearms by high school students file congress cover congress covers itself but not public by paul craig roberts printed in the cleveland plain dealer october nd file hamper restrictions hamper law abiding folks not criminals by david b kopel printed in the columbus oh dispatch january th points out how waiting periods can cause a great deal of harm file schumer gripe a washington post letter to the editor by congessman charles e schumer discussing his bill h r which requires law enforcement sign off on ffl applications file sof a upi article on a lawsuit against soldier of fortune which forced them out of business this article is copyright by upi and archived with permission please respect the re distribution prohibition file fl stats a summary of ccw permit statistics for the state of florida e g the number of permits issued number revoked number denied etc this proves that people obtaining ccw permits are law abiding citizens and are not wreckless with their firearms file knox on ruger knox replies to comment from ruger counsel s from the new gun week december neal knox discusses how sturm ruger inc are willing to sacrifice the rkba for the benefit of their business file american blacks gun control and american blacks by raymond g kessler pp in the united states the experience of blacks from slavery through the s was one of the clearest and best documented examples of the political functions of gun control file nraction the nra ilas little known newsletter nraction names will have the month and year at the end e g nraction file americamilitia america s militia by david b kopel appeared in gun world magazine december file hci agenda the action agenda for a national gun policy by hci file hci newsletter the handgun control semi annual progress report for december file hattoripetition a petition written by the host family of japanese exchange student yoshihiro hattori who was killed when he went to the wrong home for a halloween party to protest the easy availability of firearms in the united states which will be presented to president clinton file hci election what the election means for our gun control movement by sarah brady file centerwall university of washington pyschiatrist dr brandon centerwall writing in the april american journal of epidemiology says that television exposure is related to half of the homicides in the united states file va outrage an outrage in virginia by neal knox describes how batf used a virginia gun dealer to general strawman sales and then later traced those guns back to va so they could claim of guns they traced came from va when the dealer stopped cooperating they were convicted of conducting strawman sales one of the owners committed suicide file factcard the firearms fact card published by the nra ila file nejm a letter to the editor of the wall street journal by preston covey on the factoid you are times more likely to kill someone you know with a gun than a criminal file gifford an op ed piece by dan gifford which appeared in the march issue of the cleveland plain dealer it discusses the issue of police abuses and citizen self defense against such abuses file reynolds an editorial gun makers must pay the price by mel reynolds d il member us house of representatives which appeared in the issue of the chicago tribune file pozner gun control with vladamir pozner yes the commie and phil donahue from a feb broadcast on cnbc file trustpeople cato institute policy analysis no july trust the people the case against gun control by david b kopel file bitterprice the british shooter pays a bitter price by keith g n nicholson from the american rifleman march file batman cartoon campaign for gun control from the march th issue of new american file batfss waco shootout evokes memory of warsaw from the wall street journal monday march file academics contact information for academics for the second amendment file propaganda anti gun ownership propaganda by doan boal in the march issue of survival guide file media fairness media fairness action plan is continuing by james h warner nra ass t general counsel from american rifleman march page this describes the fcc s personal attack rule and how the nra may take advantage of this rule against broadcasters who attack the nra file artconf articles of confederation proposed by congress november ratified and effective march file pending bills a list of the currently pending gun control bills in the us seante and house of representatives file noduty self reliance for self defense police protection isn t enough by peter kasler file leftout the second amendment a right left out by doctor linda karen miller appearing in the american rifleman february p file copsnguns what cops should know about the gun issue by leroy pyle from the may issue of guns ammo file crossfire a transcript of the wednesday march edition of the cnn show crossfire the participants are michael kinsley john sununu rep charles schumer d ny criminal justice subcmte and j f rep jack fields r tx file naziconnection the war on gun ownership still goes on gun control s nazi connection by craig peterson from the may issue of guns ammo file armedcriminal the armed criminal in america by james wright a research in brief published by the national institute of justice file bigotry bigotry symbolism and ideology in the battle over gun control by don kates from the public interest law review file flmurd ps file gamurd ps file idmurd ps file mtmurd ps file nodiscr ps file ormurd ps file pamurd ps file philmurd ps file utmurd ps file vamurd ps file wamurd ps file wvmurd ps ccw laws and murder rates in several states by clayton cramer these are all postscript files and require the use of postscript printer to print file hammer marion hammer on the failure of gun control downloaded from gun talk file threechiefs the views of police chiefs daryl gates la lee brown nyc leroy martin chicago on gun control and other civil rights rkba archive general information and anonymous ftp instructions the moderator of the firearms politics mailing list karl kleinpaste has agreed to set up an anonymous ftp archive directory for rkba related information this directory can be used for things like articles by kates wright tonso levinson supreme court decisions the ria vs us decision copies of legislation and so on it s not meant to be for the discussions that normally appear here so in the future if you re looking for something check there first and then ask here instructions short version for techies the site is godiva nectar cs cmu edu place contributions into the directory usr anon pub firearms politics rkba the ftp commands get put mget or mput should work give the command type binary to be sure files are transferred correctly your files will be moved to the rkba directory to get a file use the commands get or mget i will maintain an index which you should get first to check if the file you want to read or write already is archived long version for non techies in order for you to use this archive your computer must be on the internet to connect to the archive site run the command ftp godiva nectar cs cmu edu if that doesn t work you cannot use this archive if the ftp command is successful you ll get this prompt asking you for a login name godiva nectar cs cmu edu lvc instead of lvc your initials will appear answer this prompt with ftp next you ll get this prompt asking your for your e mail address guest login ok send e mail address as password i would enter l v cipriani att com you ll enter your own e mail address you ll get these lines or similar as output remote system is unix using binary mode to transfer files next the command prompt is printed ftp if you do not get the line using binary mode to transfer files run the command type binary now you re logged in to the archive machine there are many directories on this machine but the two you are concerned with are usr anon pub firearms politics rkba and usr anon pub firearms politics incoming there are subdirectories to the rkba directory those are discussed below when you login to the system your directory is usr anon to retreive files change your current directory to the rkba directory with the command cd usr anon pub firearms politics rkba or cd pub firearms politics rkba to submit files change your directory to the incoming directory with the command cd usr anon pub firearms politics incoming or cd pub firearms politics incoming once you do this you ll get another ftp prompt asking you to enter another command to find the names of the existing files in the directory you are in run the command ls l this will produce something like total r r r karl jun dmn gratia ccp r r r karl apr index r r r karl jun knox aw lies r r r karl apr s r r r karl jun wsj crimestrike r r r karl jan academia bias r r r karl mar academics r r r karl aug aclu and so on each line corresponds to one file reading right to left the fields are the file name the last modification date of the file the size of the file in bytes and some permission fields which you do not need to be concerned with to get a file run the command get followed by the name of the file you want for example get index or get noduty after the file is transfered to your machine a message like this transfer complete bytes received in seconds kbytes s you can repeat the get command for every file you want to retreive you can use the mget command to retreive multiple files if the file you want is in a subdirectory for example congress rd hr you should change your directory to the appropriate subdirectory first and then retrieve it cd congress rd get hr once you re finished you can log off with the command quit if you have a file you want to contribute the procedure is a little different first of all you should find out if the file already exists so get a copy of the index file with the procedure above and look it over to make sure you wouldn t repeat an entry the index will have a description of each of the files in the rkba directory for example file whitemanslaw white man s law by william r tonso from the december reason magazine once you ve determined you won t be duplicating an entry login and change to the incoming directory command see above once you are in the incoming directory use the command put file name in this case put whitemanslaw again there ll be a transfer complete so many bytes transfered in so many seconds message now your file is on the archive machine another thing to watch out for is duplicate file names be sure there isn t a file in the incoming directory that is called the same as the file you want to write if you use the same name you ll overwrite the previous file or you ll get an error message your file may have to be renamed if there is a conflict with a file by the same name in the rkba directory once your file is in the incoming directory send me an entry for the index file and i will add it to the file if you cannot use anonymous ftp and would still like to contribute a file email the file to me and i ll take care of the rest if you submit a file and do not notify me it may be removed so be sure to let me know first if you have any questions feel free to ask me larry cipriani l v cipriani att com michael phelps external mjp vnet ibm com internal mjp bwa kgn ibm com mjp at kgnvmy and last but not least a disclaimer these opinions are mine
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re riddle me this on the subject of cs cn tear gas when i received my initial introduction to tear gas the first thing that came to mind was the location of the exit if there had been anything in the way corners to negotiate doors to open or any other obstacles to movement i would have had a difficult time exiting the chamber and any concentration of tear gas is hazardous to individuals with respiratory problems and the wearing of soft contact lenses in a tear gas contaminated area is considered a real bad idea so hoping the bd s would peaceably come strolling out the door after being gassed is a bit unrealistic if they could have found the door having them staggering out retching wouldn t be too far fetched throw in the factor of days of being under siege and subject to psychological warfare and all bets on functional abilities are off anybody tried to get amnesty international to jump in on this one james s cochrane when in danger or in doubt run in this space gt a prism gatech edu circles scream and shout for rent
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re my gun is like my american express card in article cmm thomasp surt ifi uio no thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio no writes gun clubs if you are a member you can borrow weapons suprised you are supposed to train with a for the months then you can start with anything bigger drivers licence forgot that usa is the land of cars getting one in scandinavia and northern europe is not easy average time is about hours of training and the cost is rather but we think this is acceptable because a car is not a toy and bad drivers tend to hurt others if you are really bad you won t get a lincence abuse by the goverment this seems to be one of the main problems any harder gun control would just be abused by the goverment either some of you are a little paranoid no offence or you should get a new goverment you do have elections unfortunately elections can and are bought promise the voters money and they will vote for you guns n criminals most weapons used by criminals today are stolen known criminals can not buy weapons that s one of the points of gun control same here convicted felons may not legally purchase firearms and because gun control are strict in whole scandinavia and most of europe we dont have any problem with smuggled guns that you know of while i lived in the dbr a gang robbed a joint us army bundewehr armoury and got several hundred m s ammunition handguns and some explosives when i left two years later there were no clues mixing weapons and things that can be use as one what i meant was that cars can kill but they are not guns someone said that if we ban guns we d have to ban cars to because they kill to i don t think we should argue on this one the issue i hope i think we all agree that the criminals are the main problem guns are not a problem but the way they are used is and what are they for who uses them is the problem crime in the u s is no big deal if you are the criminal how about years for murder credit for time served in jail waiting for trial and you are out in months worst case if we would put criminals especially violent ones in the slam for true sentences crime would drop instead we reward them for being good and let them out early very early i think this discusion is interesting when you think of ex jugoslavia they should all have weapons it s their rigth to have them and if they use them to kill other innocent people the problem is humans not guns serbs croats and muslims have been killing each other almost since before the invention of guns old women are throwing stones at un trucks this is a hatred that goes beyond reason if of all murders was done with axes would you impose some regulations on them or just say that they are ment to be used at trees and that the axe is not a problem it s the axer an example don t flame me just because not exactly are killed by guns yes the problem is the user question back since you are one of the rational ones if all gun crime were to stop would you support dropping all gun controls think about the situation in los angeles where people are buying guns to protect themselves is this a good situation is it the rigth way to deal with the problem they did not believe from experience that the police including national guard could would protect them unless you want to argue that a human being does not have a right to protect him herself they did the right thing what would you suggest as a defense against a mob throwing bottles and rocks and also likely armed with stolen firearms if everybody buys guns to protect themselves from criminals and their neighbor who have guns what do you think will happen i mean if everybody had a gun in usa criminals would move to scandinavia the average criminal would look for a less hazardous job and the rest would likely be buried at county expense don t flame the englishmen because of northern irland they have gun control that works in england and fonds from usa are one of the reasons why ira can bomb innocents something about throwing stones in glass houses personally i criticize the fools who send money to the ira to make ireland free of course this is the last thing the ira wants because they lose power if england pulls out but that s for another group don t flame them because of what to three children did either the u s has roughly times the major sporting events as the u k how many riots did we have at sporting events last year off the playing field hooligan is a word never used when reffering to sports fans here i guess that s where the different cultures thing comes in can an jugoslav have an oppinion on guns or even peace yes yes the question is is the problem one of too many guns mostly from the army or not enough nonserbians can not defend themselves my numbers about crime rates after restrictions on shot guns are from the police and the statistisk sentralbyraa understood that one sorenson last word responsible gun owners are not a problem but they will be affected if you want to protect your citicens but disarming responsible gun owners is not the solution yet that is exactly what hci is proposing dillon pyron the opinions expressed are those of the ti dseg lewisville vax support sender unless otherwise stated when i m here when i m home texans vote no on robin hood we need pyron skndiv dseg ti com solutions not gestures padi dm
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re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article apr synapse bms com hambidge bms com writes in article c sv hjy news cso uiuc edu irvine uxh cso uiuc edu brent irvine writes in article r j n t transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com c d tavares writes in article r tp em bigboote wpi edu mfrhein wpi wpi edu michael frederick rhein writes napalm then let the wood stove inside ignite it as someone else has pointed out why would the stove be in use on a warm day in texas do you eat all your food cold ever hear of electric ovens or microwaves very popular electric stoves outside metro areas especially ever hear about cutting off the electricity that was done how effective is an electric stove then didn t the branch davidans have an emergency generator oh well i don t think brent thought of that anyway patrick chester aka claypigeon wolfone ccwf cc utexas edu the earth is our cradle but one cannot stay in the cradle forever people s organizations rarely stay that way or even begin as such i only speak for myself if i did speak for ut would anyone listen
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re my gun is like my american express card hadcrjam admin uh edu miller jimmy a writes in r efjinn jj gap caltech edu arc cco caltech edu writes thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio no writes i also believe texas has some of the most liberal gun laws in usa in texas you cannot carry a handgun period either concealed or open currently there is a bill before the texas legislature that would make it legal for some ordinary folks to carry concealed weapons i don t have the details sorry semper fi jammer jim miller texas a m university and i don t speak for uh which is too bad because they could use the help become one with the student billing system be the student billing system power finds its way to those who take a stand stand up ordinary man rik emmet gil moore mike levine triumph if i recall correctly the bill would provide for concealed carry if the person takes a hr dps safety course in firearms and pays a fee for the license the bill is apparently veto proof in the house but ltgov bullock has said it will never come to the floor of the senate and dreamboat annie has vowed to veto it if it comes to her desk shrug aaron arc cco caltech edu
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re news says batf indictment warrant unsealed question what will californians do with all those guns after the reginald denny trial the wall street journal had an article on how the police were whining about all the new guns excuse me but police are employees of the government rather like having your janitor complain about job conditions i say californians should form armed block clubs that would engage in coordinated strategies should batf attempt to disarm them based on the nefarious tipster theory of law enforcement unlike waco californians should be able to destroy armored vehicles in city streets with incendiary weapons acetylene after slowing them down with abandoned car blockades m garands should easily outclass batf shock troops with their h k mp smgs and there should be enough sony walkmans and boom boxes to overwhelm any fbi psy war operation yes a good time would be had by all billary clinton would get what he wanted a war on gunowners the batf would attempt to show the anti gun press they they really really were in charge with a man charge of the light brigade and the fbi would attempt to show how they really were in charge by asking the californian national guard to level the area with artillary
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re jffo has gone a bit too far having read the posted long article by jpfo i have some observations this article does not claim that the gca of is a verbatim translation of a nazi law what it says is that in another place the book they re talking about they compare the two things section by section the implication is that the similarities are devastating in the next sentence they talk about how in that book they reproduce the german text of the nazi law together with its translation not surprisingly a reader could easily conflate these two things into a single idea that the american gca is a literal translation of the nazi law and sure enough that s what the whole thing has mutated into urban folklore style the article goes to great pains to establish that senator dodd had a copy of the nazi law either from his time on the nurnberg prosecution team or later this fact is considered highly incriminating but i don t understand why the author repeats several times that he is simply unable to imagine how anyone could come into possession of the original text and yet in a paragraph towards the end he explains it perfectly if dodd got his copy of the original german text of the nazi weapons law during his time at nurnberg it likely was part of a collection of documents for example issues of the reichsgesetzblatt the german law registry bingo exactly dodd had a book with a series of nazi laws in it including the one under discussion all of the stuff about why would a u s congressman have a copy of a nazi law melts away by the author s admission he then continues but if he acquired the original german text of the nazi weapons law after his service at nurnberg he must have done so for a very specific reason but there s absolutely no reason to think that this is the case in fact as a senior member of the u s team that helped to prosecute nazi war criminals it seems to me that he would have had to have a copy all arguments about whether the nazi weapon law is really of historical interest as it obviously is certainly according to the author here or whether dodd personally prosecuted the interior minister who signed it can be put aside as red herrings having established that dodd owned a copy of the original german text the jpfo article then tries to draw sinister implications from the fact that he asked to have it translated the problem is in the context of the charge levelled at dodd these two things work against each other people ask to have things translated when they don t know what they mean if dodd took it upon himself to preserve the nazi law with idea of someday introducing it into american law surely by he would have know what it meant wouldn t he anyway this precise charge the main one that i questioned in an earlier posting is just silly why would dodd need the exact translation for this purpose is the idea that the gun controllers despite being presumably bent on disarming the populace with the goal of eventually destroying all civil liberties needed a crib sheet didn t they have any idea how to do it on their own once again the author provides a perfectly acceptable answer to his own question dodd may have offered his copy of the nazi weapons law to show that the specific proposal did not resemble anything in the nazi law in fact since the law and its translation were entered into the congressional record under the heading of documents concerning the history of nazism and gun confiscation dodd s motivation isn t a mystery he asked for the translation in order to put it in the cr even this article makes it clear that the part of the nazi law that was added by the nazi regime is only a small part of that law registration of guns for instance was begun in and thus not a nazi inspired idea the parts of the nazi law that parallel the gca include handgun control of some sort and the identification of certain weapons as sporting weapons the jpfo then goes on to list other parts of the nazi law forbidding ownership of weapons by jews of course there are no such provisions in the american gca nevertheless in a rhetorical move guaranteed to muddy the waters immediately after the discussion of the anti jewish parts of the law the jpfo article continues given the parallels between the nazi weapons law and the gca so as to get maximum emotional mileage out of that aspect of the law don porges porges inmet camb inmet com uunet inmet porges
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re with friends like these l neil smith in article c d g xw undergrad math uwaterloo ca papresco undergrad math uwaterloo ca paul prescod writes in article apr sco com allanh sco com allan j heim writes look if you can figure out a reliable means of keeping guns away from bad people while not interfering with good people i think we d all be for it the problem is the methods we re using now don t do the trick don t manufacture them don t sell them don t import them some guns will get through but far fewer and far less people will die because of them hunting weapons could be allowed of course as long as they are big and bulky and require reloading after a few shots how many times can you shoot at the same animal anyways one assumes they are moving first of all let s assume that you are right that fewer guns would make it in to the country that sounds great to those that see guns as inherently evil except then every one of those guns would be in the hands of someone who obviously couldn t care less about following the law after all they got the gun illegally so is more likely to commit a crime with that gun great then everyone with a gun is likely to use it in a crime nice system now as to reducing the number of guns coming into society by making it illegal to manufacture sell or import them in this coutry let me use a parallel for empiric evidence the amount of cocaine in this country is far less since its manufacture sale and importation was out lawwed if that last statement is true then perhaps we should consider your plan this could also apply to drugs in general plain old joe
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the holocaust revisited the u s government s campaign of persecution and genocide against the branch davidians was a resounding success heil clinton heil reno the gestapo is alive and well and living in washington d c kevin who agrees that david koresh was probably a first rate nutcase but who firmly believes that the bill of rights guaranteed his his right to be a religious fanatic and that the government is guilty of violating his civil rights and of st degree murder ok which small under represented in congress religious group are we going to persecute next and are we going to torch their church with a rolled up copy of the constitution i think i m going to be sick now
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re text of white house announcement and q as on clipper chip encryption in article strnlghtc tr d n n netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes though i agree this is not the place to discuss guns i note in passing that a number of gun apologists seem to have ignored the words well regulated in their distorted interpretations of the second amendment what interpretations just read it as it s written a well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed where does it say the right of the people to be members of a militia shall not be infringed or the right of the militia to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed nowhere well educated businessmen being necessary to the ability of the nation to compete in the international marketplace the right of the people to attend schools shall not be infringed would you interpret this to mean that only businessmen should have a protected right to attend schools why or why not joe
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re s brady bill loopholes in article shepardc p y gc netcom com shepard netcom com mark shepard writes hi i ve just finished reading s and have several questions about the brady bills s and hr good are these the current versions of the brady bill what is the status of these bills i ve heard they re in committee how close is that to being made law not very thanks to the filibuster in the senate things are backing up the house judiciary is going to start looking at our friends from the atf so that bill will be held up a little too note things can change quickly s and hr seem fairly similar are there any important differences i missed s seems to have some serious loopholes a s doesn t specify an appeals process to wrongful denial during the waiting period other than a civil lawsuit s has an appeals process once the required instant background check system is established but not before i thought there was a correction process in both bills for both parts b the police are explicitly not liable for mistakes in denying approving using existing records so who would i sue in a above to have an inaccurate record corrected very correct c s includes an exception to waiting period clause for if a person can convince the local chief law enforcement officer cleo of an immediate threat to his or her life or life of a household member but s doesn t say exactly what is considered a threat nor does it place a limit on how long the cleo takes to issue an exception statement welcome to the world of the privileged true have i misunderstood any other holes how about no compulsion to allow purchase if there is no evidence against with just s what s to stop a person with a clean record from buying guns grinding off the serial numbers and selling them to crooks at minimum what additional laws are needed to prevent this it is already illegal to do this seems at min a gun counting scheme would be needed e g john doe owns n guns so if s passes i wouldn t be surprised to see legislation for stricter harder to forge i d s plus national gun registration justified by a need to make the brady bill work this is the health card or so some paranoids claim i say that just because you re paranoid doesn t mean they re not out to get you please comment i m mainly interested in specific problems with the current legislation i don t mean to start a general discussion of the merits of any all waiting period bills ever proposed dillon pyron the opinions expressed are those of the ti dseg lewisville vax support sender unless otherwise stated when i m here when i m home texans vote no on robin hood we need pyron skndiv dseg ti com solutions not gestures padi dm
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re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article c tenu f ns nodak edu green plains nodak edu bill green writes just to shed some light on the fire it was widely reported ap etc that there were several witnesses to bd folks starting the fires it has also been reported that the fires broke out in several places at once which rules out a bradley knocking over a lamp etc as the cause the only folks claiming this are the atf fbi who have an interest in putting the blame on the bd s wake up what i would like to see is some serious discussion of this incident i believe the moves made were right and proper but i still have some problems with some of the tactics after watching the abc special on it tonight as well as cnn and nightline i question some of the atf and fbi actions right and proper how it was fubar from day could it have been possible to have taken koresh outside the compound at some time before the feb th raid from all independent sources yes could a further wait have resulted in a different outcome it would have hurt nothing to wait and the result could hardly have been worse were fbi actions blaring loudspeakers etc the right course of action sure it you want to someone you claim is a dangerous paranoid even more paranoid and a few other questions like i said i believe the actions taken in general were proper but i still have some reservations one other point i m no fan of janet reno but i do like the way she had the balls to go ahead and take full responsibility seems like the waffle boy had problems figuring out just where he stood on the issue and what makes you think that waffle boy didn t tell her to take the wrap it was job preservation not balls wayne j warf wwarf ucs indiana edu i speak for myself only clinton gore cia fbi dea assassinate bomb wod bor atf irs resist nsa christian god satan apocalypse zog nazi socialist communist explosive fundamentalist revolution nsc federal reserve constitution gold fema
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re nra address in article pdxgate uucp barker rigel cs pdx edu james barker writes could someone email me a usnail address for the nra i d like to write them a letter encouraging them to see to it very emphatically that the nd amendment is restored to the form that the founding fathers intended national rifle association rhode island ave nw washington dc membership jeff strait strait uicsl csl uiuc edu university of illinois phone if you ladies leave this island if you survive basic recruit training you will be a weapon a minister of death praying for war
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question on senate bills i m writting letters to my congresscritters and was wondering if there is any reason s why i should not support the following bills other than the previous comments about s just checking before i mail the letter to make sure i don t support something that i really shouldn t i strongly support the following laws currently being considered in congress as they would either have a positive effect towards reducing crime or re enforce our constitutional right under the nd amendment s campbell to amend title united states code to provide a mandatory minimum sentence for the unlawful possession of a firearm by a convicted felon a fugitive from justice a person who is addicted to or an unlawful user of a controlled substance or a transferor or receiver of a stolen firearm to increase the general penalty for violation of federal firearms laws and to increase the enhanced penalties provided for the possession of a firearm in connection with a crime of violence or drug trafficking crime and for other purposes s smith to restore the second amendment rights of all americans s specter to provide federal penalties for drive by shootings s kohl to amend section of title united states code to make it a federal crime to steal a firearm or explosives in interstate or foreign commerce bill vojak vojak icebucket stortek com nra ila colorado firearms coalition here s a story bout a man named brady who took a bullet in his head even though he can act perfectly normal he prefers to pretend he s brain dead here s a story bout a woman named brady who had nothing to do but sit around all day then her husband became a media martyr now she wants to take all your guns away the brady bunch the brady bunch this is how we got stuck with the brady bunch
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re change of name in article cmm thomasp holmenkollen ifi uio no thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio no writes make a new newsgroup called talk politics guns paranoid or talk politics guns they r here to take me away well may i point out that paranoia is an irrational fear without basis in reality as we ve seen here in the us there is nothing irrational about it perhaps you folks in finland have been down on your knees being good little boys and girls so that the former soviet union didn t come across the border and stomp the snot out of you for so long that you just figure everybody should be so accomodating to tyranny move all postings about waco and burn to guess where stop posting on this newsgroup if you don t like us talking about political issues involving attacks on people for owning guns don t read talk politics guns we are all so glad you re trying to save us from the evil goverment but would you mail this in regular mail to let s say people nobody s trying to save you from anything so butt out i couldn t care less about what somebody on the other side of the world thinks about this of course you do have a right to an opinion but i ve always figured that opinons are like hemmorhoids every asshole s got them i just don t care about yours i remember what i was doing bad boy whatcha gonna do when i heard that jfk had been shot whatcha gonna do will you remember the battle of waco when they come for you ken whitehead kdw odin icd ab com
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re waco clinton press conference part could y all please stop posting this stuff to tx general tx politics is sufficient and is where this stuff belongs thanks cathy cathy foulston rice university network systems support cathyf rice edu
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the dayton gun buy back re boston gun buy back according to wnci fm radio this morning dayton ohio is operating a gun buy back they are giving for every functional gun turned in they ran out of money in one day and are now passing out vouchers of some sort they are looking for more funds to keep operating another media event brought to you by hci is there something similar pro gun people can do for example pay to anyone who lawfully protects their life with a firearm sounds a bit tacky but hey whatever works larry cipriani l v cipriani att com
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re need senate bill numbers and house resolution numbers in article c u io umw hawnews watson ibm com mjp vnet ibm com michael j phelps writes try the firearms archive larry cipriani s instructions follow by the way thanks for the archive larry there are a few bills not yet in the archive but these are the main ones we need to fight and thanks to david robinson for scanning so many of them in for us the subdirectory bills are stored in was moved from congress to congress that is godiva nectar cs cmu edu usr anon pub firearms politics rkba congress larry cipriani l v cipriani att com
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re riddle me this in article apr ucsu colorado edu fcrary ucsu colorado edu frank crary writes in article apr jupiter sun csd unb ca j jupiter sun csd unb ca fuller m writes that the gas was not harmful as the sensitive caring janet reno described it is it as far as i know tear gas especially in large concentrations is very dangerous even toxic for small children this makes the fbi s supposedconcern for the safety of the children seem rather hypocritical not to mention that the g men believed the children didn t have gas masks but that was not with respect to the children the point of the gassing the feds knew that the children s health would be in danger and proceeded under the assumption that the motherly instinct of the davidian women would remove them from harm s way i busted a gut on that one someone else on the net observed that the administration s appeal to a woman s motherly instinct would never wash with feminists and liberals if a republican were in the white house i say that such an justification could only come from a feminist mindset btw i d read in the paper yesterday that the type of gas used was cs the paper didn t provide any specifics about it guess i m still writing malcolm fuller surveying engineering university of new brunswick malcolm atlantic cs unb ca or j jupiter csd unb ca malo periculosam libertatem quam quietam servitutem
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re atf burns dividian ranch update aej d cmuvm bitnet writes ah yes i see a few liberal weenies have come out of the woodwork to defend the burning of the children actually all the liberals i ve seen have deplored the burning of children i would far preferred that the davidians had not set the fire that burned themselves and their children to death but i don t believe that the responsibility for the fire or the almost complete absense of attempts to escape the blaze can be placed at the door of the federal authorities probably drooled all over themselves while watching the tv coverage not so my wife got me a convenient plastic drip pan for christmas probably had a few like that in nazi germany as well yeah those nazis you know how we liberals just love those nazis oh yeah atf fbi now claims according the the media that there are a few survivors the number seems to vary minute by minute yeah as information trickles in funny how that works nathan engle software juggler psychology department indiana university nate psygate psych indiana edu nengle silver ucs indiana edu
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re need info on and suicide for refutation in article qmuv innl s dns nmsu edu loki acca nmsu edu entropic destroyer writes the following is quoted from the tail end of a rather condescending article about paxton quigley that appeared in us snooze and world lies sorry i think it was in the wall street journal and was repeated in the colorado people s daily a student newspaper at the university of colorado at boulder a study of residential gunsot deaths in king county wash found that a gun in the home was times more likely to be used to kill its owner spouse a friend or child than to kill an intruder the used to kill is the heart of the misinformation it s one of those technically accurate phrasings that conveys the wrong impression what mr quiqley is more than aware of i m sure is that when people read this they think violent arguments where one member of the family grabs a gun and shoots another thereby creating a tragic situation which could easily have been avoided had the gun not been there or a tragic accident especially involving a child unfortunately that s not the way things stack up the majority of that times i believe are suicides that is someone intentionally took a firearm and shot themselves intending to kill themselves and why it s popular to try and blame suicides on guns the evidence doesn t support this internal studies as well as comparative studies with other countries indicate that cultural factors far outweigh whether a person will kill themselves or not japan for instance has a slightly higher rate than the u s there people jump off buildings according to the national crime survey of violent crime is commited by non strangers which mistakenly has been generalized regarding the king county study to mean friends and family that is mr quigley and others who quote this statistic are banking on the mental image that a friend family member or child equates to a loving relationship and that it was cut short in a moment of anger unfortunately all too often husbands beat and kill wives children assault parents or vice versa most rapes are commited by someone known to the victim for instance essentially that a gun was used against a friend or family member doesn t mean they weren t trying to hurt the other person crime is highest among poor urban families and those are also the areas most at risk for family problems especially violent ones a son in a gang may not be as loving toward his parents if they disapprove than a suburban kid might finally it hinges on the fallacy that a dead intruder is the only value of a self defense firearm using the minimum figures i worked out using the ncs i got about an ratio between deadly self defenses justifiable homicides and with gun self defenses between the fbi uniform crime report and the ncs there s an enormous amount of data and anybody with the calculator can crunch the numbers as such it is incorrect to assume that a dead body is the only valid means of determining the success of such a defense since according to the ncs which has been considered by many to seriously under report defenses there were far more successful with gun defenses than intruders killed not it also confines itself to the home where attack by a friend or family member is far far more likely and excludes any defense which occurs outside the home i believe a large number occur in businesses studies by the western psychiatric institute in pittsburgh found that the mere presence of a gun in the home sharply incresases the likelihood a family member will commit suicide even in the absence of psychiatric illness i have not seen the exact data for this so i can t comment i will point out canada s and japan s suicide rate as indications that culture far more than firearm availability affect suicide rates there was also a comparative study between canada for what it s worth considering the difficulty of comparing across cultural lines published in the new england journal of medicine i can get the exact cite if you need it that concluded that restrictive firearm laws would not significantly impact the over all suicide rate david veal univ of tenn div of cont education info services group pa utkvm utk edu i still remember the way you laughed the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft i m beginning to think you don t love me anymore weird al
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re my gun is like my american express card in article u uicvm uic edu jason kratz u uicvm uic edu writes in article apr csd newshost stanford edu andy sail stanford edu andy freeman says hell a glock is the last thing that should be switched to the only thing that i know about a glock is the lack of a real safety on it sure there is that little thing in the trigger but that isn t too great of a safety now we know that kratz doesn t understand what a safety is supposed to do he also confuses things he can see with things that exist glocks have multiple safeties even though only one is visible from the outside excuse me but i do know what i safety is supposed to do kratz comments above show otherwise it s basic purpose not to let the gun fire until you re ready bingo now the question is does the glock s qualify let s see the evidence that kratz uses christ i ve known that since i had my first crosman air gun you don t know me so don t make assumptions about what i know and don t know but first an aside having an air gun proves nothing moreover my comments are based on what kratz writes he s free to argue that he babbles in text but actually knows something off line a safety is supposed to keep the gun from going off unless that s what the user wants with glocks one says i want the gun to go off by pulling the trigger if the safeties it has make that work it has a real safety no matter what kratz thinks from the things i have read heard glocks are always knocked because of the trigger safety they are supposedly harder to learn to use properly harder than what i note that almost all revolvers work the same way so it can t be harder than revolvers every article that i have read can t be wrong about the damn thing sure they can moreover we know now that kratz sample is unrepresentative we can look at the reasoning it is basically these glocks are dangerous because they re not like my s w third generation part of that is true but since those same people don t claim that revolvers which share the relevant property are dangerous we see that the argument fails me to quote my sources because i don t keep a ton of gun magazines and or why would i care i m not looking for more bogus reasoning rec guns articles laying around boy you can t make a simple statement on here without someone getting right on your ass one can make hundreds of simple statements without having anyone getting right on your ass one merely has to make accurate simple statements then you get attaboy s by mail and publically accuracy is a severe burden but most of us manage it andy
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re my gun is like my american express card in article u uicvm uic edu jason kratz u uicvm uic edu writes i have been at a shooting range where gang members were practicing shooting in article apr csd newshost stanford edu andy sail stanford edu andy freeman says how do we know that they were gang members and not undercover cops or even law abiding menacing minorities btw why the sneer quotes we know because the area that the gun shop shooting range is in is right on the border of the west side of chicago that is a gang infested area so kratz was there does that mean that he s a gang member even in the most gang infested areas most of the residents are not gang members that only minorities have gangs not so as far as the quotes are concerned it was totally obvious that they weren t just practicing for marksmanship how was it obvious were they not trying to hit the target or does kratz confuse marksmanship with trying to simulate a post if so that excludes self defense shooting but the rest of us understand that that exclusion would be an error it excludes a lot of legit gun games as well don t know about you but i have never seen anyone else practice marksmanship by taking their gun out of their coat as fast as possible and start shooting sounds like practical pistol or maybe ipsc it also sounds like how a self defense shooter might well practice the only things that action excludes are hunting and like a post shooting kratz should get out more often andy
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re guns in backcountry no thanks in article qkcok s i usenet ins cwru edu ci cleveland freenet edu john k gever writes public health experts will tell you that you are far more likely have your gun stolen use it yourself on a family member or have it used on you than you are to use it on an actual criminal actually they won t what they ll tell you is that if you add up the number of suicides murders of one drug dealer by another legit self defenses of a battered spouse and so on you ll end up with a number that is much larger than the number of self defense killings against strangers committed in the bedroom btw they didn t honestly count the latter either but let s not quibble they try to claim that comparison is between the costs of self defense and the benefits but they re wrong this comparison doesn t measure the costs of self defense and it doesn t measure the benefits either for example the goal is not to kill the attacker whatever your relationship to him but to stop him while the number of killings may be proportional to the number of stops it isn t equal anyone who confuses that comparison with an honest evaluation is either lying or andy
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re change of name in article cmm thomasp surt ifi uio no thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio no writes note my posting was in reply to those about fbi torching the plasce after filling it with napalm and arrested people dissapering about waco it looks to me as the batf and fbi can t handle situations like this the way it went reminds me of stun bomb beeing dropped on a house in la from a helicopter whole block went up in flames died it doesn t have to be a conspiracy maybe they just screwed up i don t think we ve got a conspiracy on our hands or anything vaugely similar i do think that the feds showed a distinct lack of both intelligence and disregard for others safety throughout this whole mess i do think the fbi and the batf screwed up big what made me really concerned was fbi director william sessions being on cnn engaging in what could only be called spin control before the place had even cooled down evertyhing had literally blown up in their faces and i felt there had to be something more important he should have been doing david veal univ of tenn div of cont education info services group pa utkvm utk edu i still remember the way you laughed the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft i m beginning to think you don t love me anymore weird al
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re cnn for sale in article c somx hmd boi hp com kde boi hp com keith emmen writes if anyone is keeping a list of the potential contributors you can put me down for under the conditions above seems to me folks that if you are so interested in acquiring cnn just buy your worth of stock today it s being traded everyday after you own your piece we can work on the proxy votes later it s probably even a good investment chuck harris wa uqv chuck eng umd edu
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re waco clinton press conference part in article feustelc tw p netcom com feustel netcom com david feustel writes i predict that the outcome of the study of what went wrong with the federal assault in waco will result in future assaults of that type being conducted as full scale military operations with explicit shoot to kill directives you mean they aren t already could have fooled me remember waco who will the government decide to murder next maybe you opinions are mine i don t care if you blame the university or the state
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re my gun is like my american express card in article cmm thomasp surt ifi uio no thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio no writes i don t remember the figures exactly but there were about deaths in texas in that was caused by guns how about firearm related this is more than those beeing killed in car accidents texas is unusual in this regard it would be nice to reduce them both though as texas doesn t appear to have an murder rate that much higher than the national average i would expect it is a result of a much higher suicide rate i should not suffer because of others be nice if you didn t have to suffer at all we all agree on this one but we also live in a sociaty and therefor we ll have to give up some of our freedom note the here s where we run into a problem i am perfectly willing to have government regulation on something which is likely to cause others harm what we re discussing though is the extreme regulation of a large group in order to target a small group and i don t think that s appropriate do you have an insurance then you ll have to pay because of what others do do you buy anything you are paying for those who return goods steal or even those who gets a bonus do you live with other people then you can t do ererything you d want burping farting playing music loud does this then justify anything at some point you have to draw a line at least to my way of thinking where the government must have something a little more substantial than a set of percentages with which to punish an individual where do you draw the line or is there one one state don t remember which texas tried to impose a rule that you could only buy one gun each month think you all know what happened virginia it passed i respect the right to defend yourself but that right should not inflict on other people does it it seems like you all realize that you have a problem in america the only problem is that you won t take the car away from the drunk driver you hope to cure him first cute analogy the u s doesn t treat drunk driving like a serious crime however we also don t confiscate cars of people who drink we also don t confiscate all cars because some people drink and drive it s the core of the legal system that in order to punish an individual and i d call property confiscation a punishment you must have evidence against that individual that is it isn t enough to show that the majority of people convicted of murder are white in order to convict a particular white guy of murder hope life comfirms to the standard of winnie the poh huh david veal univ of tenn div of cont education info services group pa utkvm utk edu i still remember the way you laughed the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft i m beginning to think you don t love me anymore weird al
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re impeach clinton reno i heartily agree now that the batf warrant has been unsealed it is clear that clinton and reno supported an illegal raid did they not know this no authority for a no knock raid no authority to use helicopters no authority to search for a drug lab and apparently not even any authority to search for automatic weapons days of government lies sorry i missed all this can you please give an update on the warrant i hadn t heard that it was unsealed there was no authority for a no knock this is news how about an ok for a wiretap please summarize
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re waco they did it masada fcrary ucsu colorado edu frank crary writes msn reef cis ufl edu mike hk g zf full auto newsome writes i m sick to my stomach as i write this the bd compound is on fire and will burn to the ground in minutes i used exactly this one word reply to suggest a likely ending to the siege several weeks ago but like masada this wasn t entirely a government action the defenders held out as long as they could and then killed themselves their families and their children rather than surrender israel calls the action of the zelots heroic and trains their army to follow this example now that someone has repeated this action in modern times what do we call it liberals and supporters of clinton say that costs made the action necessary steve podleski phone nasa lewis research center cleveland ohio email pspod hooch lerc nasa gov
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re batf fbi murders almost everyone in waco today roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes in article c rrot mmm rice edu fontenot ravl rice edu dwayne jacques fontenot writes in article c rpoj ijv news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes in article apr stortek com vojak icebucket stortek com bill vojak writes point out that even if the fire was set by someone inside of the building it came as a direct result of the actions of the fbi batf and the people inside including children deserved a trial instead of this well they had over days to come out with their hands up on national tv to get the trial they deserved instead they chose to set fire to their compund hours after the tanks dropped off the tear gas correction the fbi says that the davidians set fire to their buildings and i suppose the fbi also prevented them from coming out with their hands up while national tv cameras watch well the attorneys of the davidians reported on larry king that the tanks had actually damaged the structure to the extent that effectuating egress from the building was difficult at best with a rapidly spreading fire and large amounts of smoke and tear gas finding the right exits or acceptible holes in the walls were nearly impossible i find this explanation to be completely plausible doesn t mean that it s true but i don t find it intrinsically less believable than the government stories the fbi also said that the davidians had a methanphetamine lab in their basement and that the davidians had cal machine guns do you believe everything the fbi says do you disbelieve everything the fbi says i balance my gut reaction to question authority together with the independent facts as i see them on video i usually adopt the scenario that is simplest and most plausible i do not generally believe in conspiracy theories that involve complicated and unlikely scenarios i concur the batf is by no means devoid of fault in the handling of this affair but to suggest that they may have intentionally started the fire is ludicrous indeed according to the lawyers the davidian survivors say that lanterns were knocked over during the probing and that s how the fire started a tragic accident if true do you trust that snivelling little piece of sh t special agent ricks he seems to think he is a comedian and the media who laugh at his sick jokes are just as guilty as he imho up until now the batf had been making me sick today the people inside the compound who set the fire made me sick keeping the children inside the compund when they should have been released earlier with the other people weeks ago is absolutely inexcuseable not releasing them before deciding to set the place afire is the work of madmen two of the nine who escaped the compound said the fire was deliberately set by cult members correction the fbi says that two of the nine said the fire was deliberately set by the sect members if the fire were set by accident or by people outside the compound i would have expected far more cult members to flee the compound or at least come out shooting see above this one is going to be thoroughly investigated maybe we ll eventually get some idea of what happened my view is that from beginning to end this operation was a botch and that it is completely possible that nut cases who were otherwise law abiding citizens were victims of a bureaucratic execution paul hager hagerp moose cs indiana edu i would give the devil benefit of the law for my own safety s sake from a man for all seasons by robert bolt
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re guns in backcountry no thanks in article apr midway uchicago edu pkgeragh gsbphd uchicago edu kevin geraghty writes wrong about the whole guns for protection mindset it ignores the systemic effects of cumulative individual actions if you want fire insurance on your house that s prudent and it has no effect on me but if you and a bunch of other paranoids are packing handguns in the backcountry it makes me and anyone else who doesn t chose to protect himself in this manner pretty f king nervous why if you re not a threat you re not affected at all i mean take this to its logical conclusion suppose we all carried handguns all the time for protection from all the other people carrying handguns would we collectively be or feel safer hell no we d feel a lot more insecure why i note that the available psych info says that feelings of security increase the victimization stats say that that increase is rational another systemic effect of all the good people protecting themselves is that the bad people are going to modify their behavior in response yes they are but how they re going to be much itchier and much more willing to kill people in the course of routine muggings if they think their nope that doesn t happen instead the switch among those who change behaviors to property crimes that s an improvement even if the economic take is unchanged sure not everyone switches but they were killing before andy
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re backcountry confidence in article c l e gh murdoch acc virginia edu rbw q rayleigh mech virginia edu brad whitehurst writes the rest of us fall in the middle there is too much violent crime in the u s but turning the whole country into an old time dodge city ref to american old west is not the way that s an interesting statement there s quite a difference between hollywood s old west and the real one yes there were drunks saloons mining camps and thugs however as mcgrath showed the thugs preyed almost exclusively on one another mcgrath claims that this was due to the fact that no one much cared if someone who insisted on getting into a fight got his way even if he lost while they really did care when thugs preyed on others citizens should be able to own weapons but we see no sense in some types we haven t figured out that those distinctions don t actually work machine guns have been strictly regulated since said regulation is both perfect legally owned machine guns aren t ever used criminally and a complete waste of time the criminal use of machine guns hasn t change at all the result we re now arguing about guns that look like machine guns but are no different than other guns andy
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re dillon puts foot in mouth film at i have also heard about hci claiming thant anyone they get an address from is a member if this is the case their membership rolls are grossly inflated and we should not call them and give them a name and address to add to their already false rolls perhaps if you could get a copy of their existing membership then pretend to be an existing member do that several thousand times you could hurt hci but names are power remeber the nra uses the fact that it has million paid members in order to flex its muscles perhaps politicians don t realize the lying tactics of hci wait a minute hci learned it from politicians later josh
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re dillon puts foot in mouth so the blue press suggests that we bankrupt hci by requesting information and the concern by list members is that hci will claim everyone that calls as a new member i think they will i also think they will claim a new mandate to ban all firearms from the solar system wheter we call and ask for information or not on the other hand with due respect to the editor of the blue press just becaue mike makes damned good presses dies powder scales and got tired of lee s atacks does not mean that every dillon fan follows what mike calls for like he was karesh and we were transdillidians our local state assemblyman has called for a complete ban on all non bolt action military rifles and all assault weapons a day wait for purchase permits it currently takes to working days here in nc and one permit year the flood of calls he got was for and against guess who called supporting his move guess what ila is doing right chl
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re dillon puts foot in mouth film at in article aa sun panix com justice panix com michael justice writes dillon has published a letter in the blue press telling people how to bankrupt hci by requesting information from them last time this idea went around in rec guns a couple of people said that hci counts all information requestors as members can anyone confirm or deny this if true what s the impact of hci getting a few thousand new members last i heard hci had something like k members to the nra s million if true and they want to play duelling mandates well the polymath aka jerry hollombe m a cdp aka hollombe polymath tti com head robot wrangler at citicorp laws define crime ocean park blvd x police enforce laws santa monica ca citizens prevent crime
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re jffo has gone a bit too far rats cbnewsc cb att com morris the cat writes would somebody please post evidence that the gun control act of is a verbatim transcription of a nazi law the evidence is that the two laws are basically identical however that s not evidence that one is a copy of the other there s no evidence that the gca s authors used the nazi law as a guide yes they ended up with roughly the same thing but that comes from their shared goal disarming those menacing minorities i thought the same thing too until jpfo s rkba article in the latest guns ammo at the newstands this article makes it certain that sen thomas dodd d md back before definitely asked for a translation of the german weapons laws back then read the article and see what you think of jpfo s argument they note that ted kennedy and john dingell are among the three of the originals left from the stuff and they are asking that folks request of john dingell that he introduce legislation to lift gca something which i would support whole heartedly andy can someone post a general idea of what gca does thanks
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re constitutionality of u s c o brians atlastele com brian sheets writes you know i was reading u s c and something just did not make sence and i was wondering if someone could help me out say u s c except as provided in paragraph it shall be unlawful for any person to transfer or possess a machinegun well i got to looking in my law dictionary and i found that a person might also be an artificial entity that is created by government and has no rights under the federal constitution so what i don t understand is how a statute like can be enforced on an individual so someone tell me how my government can tell me what i can or cannot possess just passing a law does not make it law everyone knows that laws are constitional until it goes to court so has it ever gone to court not just your run of the mill ok i had it i am guilty put me in jail has anyone ever claimed that they had a right to possess and was told by the supreme court that they didn t have that right brian sheets truck what truck support engineer o o atlas telecom inc raiders of the lost ark brians atlastele com u i m not a lawyer but to the best of my understanding the congress has no more rights than what is enumerated in the constitution that is the prime reason why the national firearms act is based on collecting revenue since the congress has the authority to levy taxes the nfa is a tax act and the registration requirement within it is to assist in that tax collection u s c in order to be constitutional must have a basis on a particular authority granted to the congress by the constitution congress can not arbitrarily ban a substance or product that is why prohibition came into effect only by passing an ammendment what you said about constitutionality of law needs to be clarified i believe that an unconstitutional law was never constitutional when a law is determined by the supreme court to be unconstitutional that law was never really a law the very nature of the law being unconstitutional invalidates the law at it s inception please correct me if i m wrong but when a law is deemed to be unconstitutional anyone convicted of breaking that law is absolved i don t believe u s c has ever been challenged in court nfa has been invalidated in two federal district court cases one may have been appellate level u s vs rock island armory and u s vs dalton
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re ban all firearms jrm gnv ifas ufl edu firearms tend to fall into this low dollar pound area it would not be economic to smuggle them in all production would have to be local there are not all that many people who have both the skill and motivation to assemble worthwhile firearms from scratch high ranking crime figures could obtain imported uzis and such but the average person and average thug would be lucky to get a zip gun and would pay through the nose for it good point you make however a zip gun by definition is a crude homemade gun certainly not something capable of sustained accurate fire but it would be useful as a means of getting a normal gun recall the tiny single shot pistols made by the allies during world war ii for use by partisans they were essentially well made zipguns incapable of effective fire beyond a few feet but they were useful as a means of killing german soldiers for their guns also note that the crowd pleasin favorite the sten gun was specifically designed to require as little machine work as possible the point s been made here that one could make a sten clone with steel tubing hand tools and a welder i still think that while the point is good i think there s a difference between marijuana and firearms in that quality marijuana can be grown locally there s no need to import the stuff if guns are banned i think the demand for real guns will be sufficient to make smuggling economically feasible thus rendering a ban moot in any case the result would be the same people who aren t criminals won t have firearms and bad guys will continue to have access to them one way or another and i don t see that as a necessary situation allan j heim allanh sco com uunet sco allanh
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re fyi batf reply on waco in article c l k u elite intel com dgw elite intel com dennis willson writes on february the special agents attempting to serve the federal search warrant were all dressed in apparel clearly identified with the letters atf and a highly visible police type badge additionally the special agents announced who they were and their purpose for being at the compound immediately following this announcement gunfire erupted from the compound resulting in the deaths of four atf special agents and the wounding of several others through no fault of atf the element of surprise was lost which caused the tragedy this statement simply amazes me through no fault of atf the element of surprise was lost what element of surprise in the paragraph preceding this one he said the special agents announced who they were and their purpose for being at the compound which was to serve the federal warrant no element of surprise was even needed for that no the element of surprise that they lost was that needed for a preemptive first strike without warning inasmuch as the warrants remain sealed by a u s magistrate and the investigation remains in an active ongoung status we are prohibited from disclosing any further information at this time read they need to wait until they see how it comes out before they fabricate anymore which could get disproven we hope we have been responsive to your letter please let us know whenever we may be of service sincerely yours daniel m h l tt can t make out signature deputy director as always no facts just my opinions observations jim jmd handheld com i m always rethinking that there s never been a day when i haven t rethought that but i can t do that by myself bill clinton april if i were an american as i am an englishman while a foreign troop was landed in my country i never would lay down my arms never never never william pitt earl of chatham nov
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re need info on and suicide for refutation entropic destroyer loki acca nmsu edu wrote i have seen these numbers quoted before and i have seen very specific refutation of them quoted as well if someone will be so kind as to email the relevant information i will write a letter to the editor of the co daily which might get published and send a copy to usn wr as well thanks to all who responded the letter has been written making liberal use of info provided by various net folks and handed to the paper i ll post if it gets into the paper dan dod loki acca nmsu edu liberty or death taylordf ucsu colorado edu send me something even you can t read
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re guns in backcountry no thanks hi in canada any gun that enters a national park must be sealed i think it s a small metal tag that s placed over the trigger the net result of this is that you can t use a gun to protect yourself from bears or psychos in the national parks instead one has to be sensitive to the dangers and annoyances of hiking in bear country and take the appropriate precautions i think this policy makes the users of the national parks feel a little closer to nature that they are a part of nature and as such have to deal with nature on it s own terms guy
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re the truth starts to come out in article c ua r dad da vinci it uswc uswest com pprun august it uswc uswest com writes i have just one thing to say about this write your congressperson the fbi and batf storm troopers must not be allowed to get away with this demand a full investigation of the waco survivor s story of the lantern being knocked over by the tank we can t bring anybody back from the dead but we may be able to send a few of them to political hell i heard over npr yesterday morning that arlan specter senator from pennsylvania has already called for a congressional investigation the problem is that specter was one of the key government attorneys several years ago who did what he could to coverup facts in the assassinations of jfk and others that is to say the chief fox wants to check out the hen house writing your representatives is a great idea when you do ask that they keep specter and his cronies far away from any investigation would someone please post the generic addresses for congress and senate so that we can all write letters joe gaut in the super state it really does not f gautjw ccsvax sfasu edu matter at all what actually happened red neck and proud of it truth is what the government chooses to tell you justice is what it wants to happen jim garrison new orleans la
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re waco clinton press conference part cathyf is rice edu catherine anne foulston writes could y all please stop posting this stuff to tx general tx politics is sufficient and is where this stuff belongs thanks cathy cathy foulston rice university network systems support cathyf rice edu why
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re andy how do we stop people with a gun in article apr freenet carleton ca ac freenet carleton ca nikolaus maack writes come on a gun kills people rather people kill people with guns the sad truth is sometimes that is good or at least better than the alternative but let s ignore guns for defence and or crime and look at gun accidents ok there are about fatal firearm accidents per year and the number has been in decline since early this century most of these accidents involve rifles or shot guns not handguns but seriously a gun is designed to fire a bullet this is not so you can shoot cardboard cut outs down at the range in fact there are both guns and bullets designed specifically for that the idea that my ruger mark ii bull barrel a semi auto caliber handgun was designed to kill or hurt people even for self defense would i m sure come as a surprise to its designer it certainly isn t why i have it it certainly would hurt someone if you shot them with it and might even kill them but it is simply wrong to say it was designed to kill people this is not designed to act as a tool for home defence where you show someone that you have a gun and they go gee perhaps i should leave in fact that is what happens most of the time most self defensive uses of firearms don t involve firing any shots most criminals would prefer not to be shot and will go to some effort not to be including doing what you say when you point a gun at them if you were called on to design a tool that could be easily carried to immediately stop someone attacking you what would it be a handgun is about the best anyone has come up with and experience shows it does work the best no you see the gun was designed to fire that little bullet into a human body and hurt them not a tough concept to swallow for most certainly no one argues that handguns of the type we are discussing aren t deadly weapons however it simply isn t true to say that all of them were designed to kill people moreover what exactly is wrong with having deadly weapons there are times when it is perfectly legitimate to use deadly force e g in self defense i consider it not just my right but my duty to defend myself and my family and that includes having and knowing how to use the tools to do that the strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is as a last resort to protect themselves against tyranny in government t jefferson i think what jefferson said is still true and the trouble with having such an item is often the little bullet goes off into the wrong fleshy target not very often compared to other use or else uncle frank gets pissed and blows away his wife this isn t that common either at least when compared to other uses it is very rare that a non violent person will suddenly get pissed and kill someone gun or not in most cases the people who murder have long histories of violence if you have good reason to believe that these people wouldn t kill if they didn t have a gun feel free to present it having a thing specificly designed to kill means it is much easier to kill things right right but there are times when killing things is called for i hope i never have to shoot a person but i ve had to kill a number of animals from rodents to cows and when i do i don t want them to suffer any more than is necessary i prefer they die instantly but failing that i want them to drop so i can quickly finish them with the next shot and failing that i don t want them to go fast or far i try to choose the best weapon and ammunition i have to try to achieve that goal for the size of animal i m after but it doesn t always work as i plan without belaboring the point people who are overly impressed with the killing or shopping power of guns particularly handguns haven t used them much for that purpose accidental deaths in deaths by auto deaths by fall deaths by drowning deaths by fire deaths by poison deaths by food deaths by firearm source statistics department national safety council accidents facts edition national safety council n michigan avenue chicago il rkba declining trend of accidental deaths by firearms version last changed on at description the accidental deaths by firearm per capita has been declining steadily for almost sixty years in the accidental deaths by firearm per people was in it was the decline has been steady consistent and a fairly straight line when plotted at the rate of the last sixty years it will reach zero sometime around ad conclusion firearms have been a declining factor in accidental deaths for over sixty years despite rising per capita gun ownership year population accidental deaths accidental deaths per sources u s bureau of the census historical statistics of the united states colonial times to bicentennial edition part washington dc u s bureau of the census statistical abstract of the united states th edition washington dc sic u s bureau of the census statistical abstract of the united states th edition washington dc kleck gary guns and self defense crime control through the use of force in the private sector social problems pp orstcs opac bug stevef i am the nra steven r fordyce uunet sequent ether stevef the only fair tax is no tax
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statement to everyone on t p g ok here goes yes folks i realize i have stuck my foot in my mouth quite a few times already so please let me make some clarifications my inaccurate information in my posts was due to lack of knowledge thanks to you kind and some not so kind people i am learning some people have given me several good points to ponder and i see how i was wrong in no way was this inaccurate information supposed to be trying to further the anti gun cause i have said several times before but nobody seemed to be listening that i am pro gun and anti gun control as far as the race can of worms that i have opened up i have only one thing to say i am in no way prejudiced some of the things i have stated were said to demonstrate that i am not prejudiced and or a racist but i have been accused of being too aware of race and prejudiced i will not say anymore about that subject because no matter what i say it will be the wrong thing boy what a start to being on a new group oh well things have been worse in my life i hope this clears things up but i guess that will remain to be seen by for now jason
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re criminals machineguns in apr csd newshost stanford edu andy sail stanford edu andy freeman writes in article u uicvm uic edu jason kratz u uicvm uic edu writes people are getting killed by gang violence every day every single day i hear about more people getting killed by gang violence and see some of the weapons that are being confiscated is kratz claiming that he can reliably visually distinguish an m from an ar that he can see the difference between a semi auto and a full auto uzi that he can see the difference between the various versions some full auto some semi auto only of the m well let me see uzi no m no m ar maybe i remember there being a selector swtich on the ar if i remember correctly please correct me if i m wrong the switch would set to an off position or an on position because the gun ar is semi automatic wouldn t the m have a position for semi auto fire and full auto fire or maybe round bursts if this is correct wouldn t it be easy to distinguish each gun by this alone of course if the ar were modified to full auto fire i wouldn t think it would be that easy but i m talking about distinguishing between an unmodified ar and m how about the other guns do they also have selector switch to switch between semi auto and fully auto fire if so i d love to hear the details if only because they ll demonstrate that kratz is blowing smoke considering that one can design a gun so that it looks just like another gun yet have very different properties and that that s quite common most kids in my neighborhood were quite young when they figured out that my parents car wasn t much like richard petty s even though it looked just like it except for the paint job things must have been different with kratz actually it was pretty hard for the kids in my neighborhood to figure that out as richard petty lived in my neighborhood and left his stock car in the driveway sure it s on tv but why does that make a difference no it doesn t but that s irrelevant if visual inspection of the outside worked tv would be acceptable but since it doesn t the fact that it s just as good as seeing in person doesn t mean much well what about what i said above if that is correct i guess tv would be acceptable if you had a good enough picture and a picture of the lower receiver of the ar m andy gave kratz a chance to back down on this in private jason kratz didn t take andy s offer to back down in private
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re ban all firearms as quoted from apr microsoft com by anthonyf microsoft com anthony francisco cmort if anybody wanted proof of the nonsense of the you can t build guns claim they need look no farther than the philippines amateur gunsmiths there regularly produce everything from automatics to full auto shotguns now if this guy wants to claim that the philippines is either technologically superior to the us or that their transportation is better than ours all i can say is that he s living in a fantasy world unfortunately a few of those s blow up in your hands that s life first you marry imelda marcos then you die on the other hand my compatriots built an excellent copy of a beretta that i enjoyed using when i lived in the philippines hmmmm and that s the hard stuff to copy you re like a bunch of over educated new york jewish aclu lawyers fighting to eliminate school prayer from the public schools in arkansas holly silva
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re some more about gun control in article rwing uucp pat rwing uucp pat myrto writes what i find so hard to understand is how come some people apparantly not connected with government or otherwise privileged will go to great lengths redefinitions re interpretations in a full bore attempt to throw away the protection of their own rights under the constitution almost makes me think of lemmings running into the sea during a lemming year i really wonder that jefferson and madison would say to these folks they d probably quote montesque sp who was once asked if russia was likely to become a democracy any time soon no because russia is a nation of slaves and the people get what they deserve since he said that russia has changed a great deal but so unfortunately have other nations frank crary cu boulder
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re my gun is like my american express card gun clubs if you are a member you can borrow weapons suprised you are supposed to train with a for the months then you can start with anything bigger drivers licence forgot that usa is the land of cars getting one in scandinavia and northern europe is not easy average time is about hours of training and the cost is rather but we think this is acceptable because a car is not a toy and bad drivers tend to hurt others if you are really bad you won t get a lincence abuse by the goverment this seems to be one of the main problems any harder gun control would just be abused by the goverment either some of you are a little paranoid no offence or you should get a new goverment you do have elections guns n criminals most weapons used by criminals today are stolen known criminals can not buy weapons that s one of the points of gun control and because gun control are strict in whole scandinavia and most of europe we dont have any problem with smuggled guns mixing weapons and things that can be use as one what i meant was that cars can kill but they are not guns someone said that if we ban guns we d have to ban cars to because they kill to i don t think we should argue on this one the issue i hope i think we all agree that the criminals are the main problem guns are not a problem but the way they are used is and what are they for i think this discusion is interesting when you think of ex jugoslavia they should all have weapons it s their rigth to have them and if they use them to kill other innocent people the problem is humans not guns if of all murders was done with axes would you impose some regulations on them or just say that they are ment to be used at trees and that the axe is not a problem it s the axer an example don t flame me just because not exactly are killed by guns think about the situation in los angeles where people are buying guns to protect themselves is this a good situation is it the rigth way to deal with the problem if everybody buys guns to protect themselves from criminals and their neighbor who have guns what do you think will happen i mean if everybody had a gun in usa don t flame the englishmen because of northern irland they have gun control that works in england and fonds from usa are one of the reasons why ira can bomb innocents something about throwing stones in glass houses don t flame them because of what to three children did either can an jugoslav have an oppinion on guns or even peace yes my numbers about crime rates after restrictions on shot guns are from the police and the statistisk sentralbyraa understood that one sorenson last word responsible gun owners are not a problem but they will be affected if you want to protect your citicens this is not a signature it s merely a computergenerated text to waste bandwith and to bring down the evil internet thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio no
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re guns gone good riddance as quoted from apr gnv ifas ufl edu by jrm gnv ifas ufl edu the press is against you the public the voting public is against you the flow of history is against you this is it kind of sounds like plessy v ferguson huh of course as in that case things change huh too fucking bad you have gone the way of the kkk violent solutions are passe avoid situations which encourage criminals then you will be as safe as possible such as it is no if your little fantasy comes to pass the country will have gone toward the kkk you re of course being a little disengenuous violent solutions are never passe for the government and criminals who frequently cannot be distinguished avoid situations which encourage criminals you mean don t be a woman don t be black don t be gay i m quite certain that having a surfeit of unarmed victims will discourage your beloved kkk from engaging in violent solutions you re like a bunch of over educated new york jewish aclu lawyers fighting to eliminate school prayer from the public schools in arkansas holly silva
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the real reason politicians want guns confiscated politicians want to eliminate private ownership of guns before the general public starts violently resisting the tax increases needed to fund the federal government as an ever higher percentage of tax revenue goes to pay interest on the national debt currently cents out of every tax dollar collected and rising dave feustel n myi feustel netcom com i m beginning to look forward to reaching the allocation of taxes to pay for the interest on the national debt at that point the federal government will be will go out of business for lack of funds
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re islam borders was israel misisipi to ganges in article bimacs bitnet ehrlich bimacs bitnet gideon ehrlich writes hassan and some other seemed not to be a ware that jews celebrating on these days thje passover holliday the holidy of going a way from the nile so if one let his imagination freely work it seemed beter to write that the zionist drean is from the misisipi to the nile the question is by going east or west from the misisipi on either choice you would loose palestine or broklyn n y i thought you re gonna say fromn misisipi back to the misisipi by the way what are the borders the islamic world dreams about islamic readers i am waiting to your honest answer let s say let s establish the islamic state first or let s free our occupied lands first and then we can dream about expansion mr gideon hasan
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re how many mutlus can dance on the head of a pin in article israel nysernet org warren nysernet org writes in c xkbx f polaris async vt edu jfurr polaris async vt edu joel furr writes how many mutlus can dance on the head of a pin that reminds me of the armenian massacre of the turks joel i took out sct are we sure we want to invoke the name of he who greps for mason kibo s last name lest he include afu in his daily rounds i dunno warren just the other day i heard a rumor that serdar argic aka hasan mutlu and ahmed cosar and zumabot is not really a turk at all but in fact is an armenian who is attempting to make any discussion of the massacres in armenia of turks so noise laden as to make serious discussion impossible thereby cloaking the historical record with a tremendous cloud of confusion
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re how many mutlus can dance on the head of a pin in article apr mnemosyne cs du edu jfurr nyx cs du edu joel furr writes in article israel nysernet org warren nysernet org writes in c xkbx f polaris async vt edu jfurr polaris async vt edu joel furr writes how many mutlus can dance on the head of a pin that reminds me of the armenian massacre of the turks joel i took out sct are we sure we want to invoke the name of he who greps for mason kibo s last name lest he include afu in his daily rounds i dunno warren just the other day i heard a rumor that serdar argic aka hasan mutlu and ahmed cosar and zumabot is not really a turk at all but in fact is an armenian who is attempting to make any discussion of the massacres in armenia of turks so noise laden as to make serious discussion impossible thereby cloaking the historical record with a tremendous cloud of confusion dis it possible to track down zuma and determine who what where seradr is if not why not i assu me his her its identity is not shielded by policies similar to those in place at anonymous services tim d d d very simpl
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re if you feed armenians dirt you will bite dust in article apr urartu sdpa org dbd urartu sdpa org david davidian writes in article apr kth se hilmi er dsv su se hilmi eren writes david davidian says armenians have nothing to lose they lack food fuel and warmth if you fascists in turkey want to show your teeth good for you turkey has everything to lose you can yell and scream like barking dogs along the davidian who are fascists armenians in azerbaijan are killing azeri people invading azeri soil and they are not fascists because they lack food ha strange explanation there is no excuse for this situation herkesi fasist diye damgala sonra kendileri fasistligin alasini yapinca ac kaldilar da yiyecekleri yok amcasi bu seferlik affedin de yurrruuu yuru de plaka numarani alalim hakan
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re jews in latvia some documents in article c zvvg d unix amherst edu nwbernst unix amherst edu neil bernstein writes pardon me here is to an amherst clown your three chiefs dro hamazasp and kulkhandanian are the ringleaders of the bands which have destroyed tartar villages and have staged massacres in zangezour surmali etchmiadzin and zangibasar this is intolerable this is about armenia were you expecting a different response here is another one source k s papazian patriotism perverted baikar press boston pages with appendix p third paragraph some real fighters sprang up from among the people who struck terror into the hearts of the turks within a few months after the war began these armenian guerrilla forces operating in close coordination with the russians were savagely attacking turkish cities towns and villages in the east massacring their inhabitants without mercy while at the same time working to sabotage the ottoman army s war effort by destroying roads and bridges raiding caravans and doing whatever else they could to ease russian occupation the atrocities committed by the armenian volunteer forces accompanying the russian army were so severe that the russian commanders themselves were compelled to withdraw them from the fighting fronts and sent them to rear guard duties the memoirs of many russian officers who served in the east at this time are filled with accounts of the revolting atrocities committed by these armenian guerrillas which were savage even by relatively primitive standards of war then observed in such areas journal de guerre du deuxieme d artillerie de forteresse russe d erzeroum p honored me by reproducing my text unfortunately he has still not produced the documents on jews in latvia instead he asks for my views on the turkish genocide well that debate seems to be going on in a few hundred other threads i ll let other people bring the usual charges try to debunk mutlu argic cosar a net wide terrorism triangle and their spurious evidence when that does ever happen look out the window to see if there is a non fascist x soviet armenian government in the east now where is your non existent list of scholars what a moronian during the first world war and the ensuing years the armenian dictatorship through a premeditated and systematic genocide tried to complete its centuries old policy of annihilation against the turks and kurds by savagely murdering million muslims and deporting the rest from their year homeland this paragraph is well written and interesting serdar baby but it has nothing to do with jews in latvia i have not presented a list of scholars how could you because there is none i am not interested in an ex soviet why do you write x it s very cute armenian government non fascist or otherwise you are not responding to what i am writing instead you are autoposting your own particular brand of bullshit like conversing with a brick wall and you are not responding to what i am writing by the way that bullshit is justly regarded as the first instance of genocide in the th century acted upon an entire people for nearly one thousand years the turkish and kurdish people lived on their homeland the last one hundred under the oppressive soviet and armenian occupation the persecutions culminated in the armenian government planned and carried out a genocide against its muslim subjects million turks and kurds were murdered and the remainder driven out of their homeland after one thousand years turkish and kurdish lands were empty of turks and kurds the survivors found a safe heaven in turkiye today x soviet armenian government rejects the right of turks and kurds to return to their muslim lands occupied by x soviet armenia today x soviet armenia covers up the genocide perpetrated by its predecessors and is therefore an accessory to this crime against humanity x soviet armenia must pay for its crime of genocide against the muslims by admitting to the crime and making reparations to the turks and kurds you have now done so four times in a row may i legitimately conclude that you are not indeed a regular net user but an auto posting computer program which for convenience i have called mutlu exe you may assert whatever you wish here we go with mutlu exe s famed list of sources ditto the attempt at genocide is justly regarded as the first instance of genocide in the th century acted upon an entire people this event is incontrovertibly proven by historians government and international political leaders such as u s ambassador mark bristol and on and on for lines and still anxiously awaiting so the list goes on and on and on i m still trying to find out about those jews in latvia can you post those documents pleeeeeeease mr argic puh leeze could you c mon it s my birthday in three weeks post them for me as a birthday present remember the issue at hand is the cold blooded genocide of million muslim people by the armenians between and the armenian nazi collaboration during world war ii anything to add no darling read what i post other people are asking you about the turkish genocide i am asking you to produce the documents on jews in latvia no matter how many times you erase what i post i will still post the same question post the documents on jews in latvia do not autopost the same block of text about the turkish genocide remember the issue at hand is the armenian nazi collaboration during world war ii and the turkish genocide and i still fail to see how you can challenge the following western sources source john dewey the new republic vol nov pp happy the minority jews which has had no christian nation to protect it and one recalls that the jews took up their abode in fanatic turkey when they were expelled from europe especially spain by saintly christians and they have lived here for centuries in at least as much tranquility and liberty as their fellow turkish subjects all being exposed alike to the rapacity of their common rulers to one brought up as most americans have been in the gladstonian and foreign missionary tradition the condition of the jews in turkey is almost a mathematical demonstration that religious differences have had an influence in the tragedy of turkey only as they were combined with aspirations for a political separation which every nation in the world would have treated as treasonable one readily reaches the conclusion that the jews in turkey were fortunate he also stated that they armenians traitorously turned turkish cities over to the russian invader that they boasted of having raised an army of one hundred and fifty thousand men to fight a civil war and that they burned at least a hundred turkish villages and exterminated their population i want the documents of jews in latvia i think several other people on soc culture greek are already disputing with you about the turkish genocide is this the joke of the month who when how where what a clown no sweetie the joke of the month is that you have now posted the same block of text four times but you still have not produced the documents on jews in latvia instead you post the same text you post in every other message that same old mccarthy table how appropriate it s named mccarthy how about prof shaw a jewish scholar source stanford j shaw on armenian collaboration with invading russian armies in history of the ottoman empire and modern turkey volume ii reform revolution republic the rise of modern turkey london cambridge university press pp in april dashnaks from russian armenia organized a revolt in the city of van whose armenians comprised percent of the population closest to an armenian majority of any city in the empire leaving erivan on april armenian volunteers reached van on may and organized and carried out a general slaughter of the local muslim population during the next two days while the small ottoman garrison had to retreat to the southern side of the lake knowing their numbers would never justify their territorial ambitions armenians looked to russia and europe for the fulfillment of their aims armenian treachery in this regard culminated at the beginning of the first world war with the decision of the revolutionary organizations to refuse to serve their state the ottoman empire and to assist instead other invading russian armies their hope was their participation in the russian success would be rewarded with an independent armenian state carved out of ottoman territories armenian political leaders army officers and common soldiers began deserting in droves with the russian invasion of eastern anatolia in at the beginning of world war i the degree of armenian collaboration with the ottoman s enemy increased drastically ottoman supply lines were cut by guerilla attacks armenian revolutionaries armed armenian civil populations who in turn massacred the muslim population of the province of van in anticipation of expected arrival of the invading russian armies source stanford j shaw history of the ottoman empire and modern turkey vol ii cambridge university press london pp meanwhile czar nicholas ii himself came to the caucasus to make final plans for cooperation with the armenians against the ottomans with the president of the armenian national bureau in tiflis declaring in response from all countries armenians are hurrying to enter the ranks of the glorious russian army with their blood to serve the victory of russian arms let the russian flag wave freely over the dardanelles and the bosporus let with your will great majesty the peoples remaining under the turkish yoke receive freedom let the armenian people of turkey who have suffered for the faith of christ receive resurrection for a new free life under the protection of russia armenians again flooded into the czarist armies preparations were made to strike the ottomans from the rear and the czar returned to st petersburg confident that the day finally had come for him to reach istanbul horizon tiflis november quoted by hovannisian road to independence p fo ottoman morale and military position in the east were seriously hurt and the way was prepared for a new russian push into eastern anatolia to be accompanied by an open armenian revolt against the sultan hovannisian road to independence pp bayur iii pp w e d allen and p muratoff caucasian battlefields cambridge pp ali ihsan sabis harb hahralaram vols ankara ii fo no fo fo nos and an armenian state was organized at van under russian protection and it appeared that with the muslim natives dead or driven away it might be able to maintain itself at one of the oldest centers of ancient armenian civilization an armenian legion was organized to expel the turks from the entire southern shore of the lake in preparation for a concerted russian drive into the bitlis vilayet thousands of armenians from mus and other major centers in the east began to flood into the new armenian state by mid july there were as many as armenians crowded into the van area which before the crisis had housed and fed no more than people muslim and non muslim alike hovannisian road to independence p fop nos and bva meclis i vukela mazbatalari debates of august babi i ali evrak odasi no van ihtilali ve katl i ami zilkade september muslim population exterminated by the armenians lines deleted why who gives a thunder about your pseudo scholar jokes i am arguing about the armenian nazi colaboration during world war ii any comment argue it with someone else or do not reply to my posts argic my love i am not arguing about the armenian nazi collaboration i do not give a thunder about it i want you to do one of three things a admit that you are not a regular user but a computer autoposting turkish propaganda or b post the documents on jews in latvia or c run away like the coward without a real address that you are and do not reply to my posts it could be perhaps your head wasn t screwed on just right in while the jews were being assembled for their doom in the nazi concentration camps the armenian volunteers in germany formed the first armenian battalion to fight alongside the nazis in this battalion had grown into eight battalions of strong under the command of the former guerilla leader dro the butcher who was the former dictator of the short lived armenian dictatorship and the architect of the cold blooded genocide of million turks and kurds between an armenian national council was formed by the notorious dashnak party leaders in berlin which was recognized by the nazis encouraged by this the armenians summarily formed a provisional government that endorsed and espoused fully the principles of the nazis and declared themselves as the members of the aryan super race and full participants to hitler s policy of extermination of the jews this armenian nazi conspiracy against the jews during wwii was an encore performance staged by the armenians during wwi when they back stabbed and exterminated million turks by colluding with the invading russian army furthermore as mccarthy put it the armenian dictatorship was granted a respite when the ottomans admitted defeat and signed the mudros armistice with the allies october the allies had decided to create a greater armenia including the old russian province of yerevan and adjoining areas as well as most parts of anatolia claimed by the armenian fanatics only the area called cilicia around the ottoman province of adana was to be excluded as it had already been claimed by the french the allies quickly set about attempting to disarm ottoman soldiers and other turks who could be expected to oppose their plans on april the british army occupied kars gave civilian and military power over to the armenians then withdrew the british planned for kars to be included in the armenian dictatorship even though the russian pre war census had shown kars province to be over muslim the turks of kars were effectively disarmed but the british could not disarm the kurds of the mountains the fate of the turks was almost an exact replica of what had occurred earlier in eastern anatolia murder pillage genocide and the destruction of turkish homes and entire turkish villages drove the turks of kars to the mountains or south and west to the safety afforded by remaining units of the ottoman army the british had left the scene to the armenian genocide squads therefore few europeans were present to observe the genocide one british soldier colonel rawlinson who was assigned to supervise the disarmament of otoman soldiers saw what was occurring rawlinson wired to his superiors in the interest of humanity the armenians should not be left in independent command of the moslim population as their troops being without discipline and not being under effective control atrocities were constantly being committed instead you post more armenian nonsense come again these european dashnags with headquarters in berlin appealed to lines deleted why no wonder you are in such a mess here are the armenian sources on the turkish holocaust lines deleted why list of dead armenians lines deleted obrother spell it out list of dead muslims source documents volume i document no archive no cabin no drawer no file no section no contents no to acting supreme command socialist salah cimcoz socialist nesim mazelyah armenian gangs have been murdering and inflicting cruelties on innocent people of the region this verified information supported by clear statements of reliable eyewitnesses was also confirmed by general odishelidje commander of the russian caucasian army armenians are entering every place evacuated by russians carrying out murders cruelties rape and all kind of atrocities which cannot be expressed in writing murdering all the women children aged people who happen to be in the street these barbarous murders repeated every day with new methods continue and the russian army has been urged to intervene to terminate these atrocities public opinion is appalled and horrified newspapers are describing the happenings as shocking we have decided to inform all our friends urgently about the situation document no archive no cabin no drawer no file no section no contents no to acting supreme command commander rd army general the situation in the cities of erzincan and erzurum which we have recently taken over is given below these two beautiful cities of our country which are alike in the calamities and destruction which they suffered have been destroyed as the specially designed and built public and private buildings of these cities were deliberately burnt by armenians apart from the destruction suffered during the two year russian occupation all barracks buildings of erzincan the cavalry barracks in erzurum the government building and army corps headquarters are among those burnt in short both cities are burnt destroyed and trees cut down as to the people of these cities all people old enough to use weapons rounded up taken to the sarikamis direction for road building and were slaughtered the remaining people were subject to cruelties and murder by armenians following the withdrawal of russians and were partly annihilated the corpses thrown into wells burnt in houses mutilated by bayonets their abdomens ripped open in slaughterhouses their lungs and livers torn out girls and women hung up by their hair after all kinds of devilish acts the few people who were able to survive these cruelties worse than those of the spanish inquisition are in poverty more dead than alive horrified some driven insane about in erzincan and in erzurum the people are hungry and in poverty for whatever they had has been taken away from them their lands left uncultivated the people have just been able to exist with some provisions found in stores left over from the russians the villages round erzincan and erzurum are in the worst condition some villages on the road have been leveled to the ground leaving no stone the people completely massacred let me submit to your information with deep grief and regret that history has never before witnessed cruelties at such dimensions a long list a long list and still anxiously awaiting serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
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day and night armenians were rounding up male inhabitants in article locust cs duke edu wiener duke cs duke edu eduard wiener writes sure it joined you by ballot in and i suppose that northern bukovina where i was born which has always had that s why zoologists refer to you as a fecal shield colonel semen m budienny a subsequent soviet military fame said about the armenian genocide of million defenseless turkish and kurdish women children and elderly people during his visit to anatolia in june that the armenians had become troublemakers their hinchakist and dashnakist parties were opportunist serving as lackeys of whatever power happened to be ascendent in september major general w thwaites director of military intelligence wrote to lord hardinge under secretary of state for foreign affairs it is useless to pretend that the armenians are satisfactory allies or deserving of all the sympathy to which they claim f o in the special collection at stanford hoover library donated by georgia cutler the letter dated nov states that prescot hall wrote a large volume to prove that armenians were not and never could be desirable citizens that they would always be unscrupulous merchants source documents volume i document no archive no cabin no drawer no file no section no contents no to th division command militia commander ismail hakki for eight days armenians have been forcibly obstructing people from leaving their homes or going from one village to the other day and night they are rounding up male inhabitants taking them to unknown destinations after which nothing further is heard of them informed from statements of those who succeeded in escaping wounded from the massacres around taskilise ruins women and children are being openly murdered or are being gathered in the church square and similar places most inhuman and barbarous acts have been committed against moslems for eight days document no archive no cabin no drawer no file no section no contents no to st caucasian army corps command nd caucasian army corps command communications zone inspectorate commander rd army general as almost all russian units opposite our front have been withdrawn the population loyal to us in regions behind the russian positions are facing an ever increasing threat and suppression as well as cruelties and abuses by armenians who have decided to systematically annihilate the moslem population in regions under their occupation i have regularly informed the russian command of these atrocities and cruelties and i have gained the impression that the above authority seems to be failing in restoring order serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
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re facts about wtc bombing backon vms huji ac il writes in article pll sms usenet ins cwru edu cl cleveland freenet edu hamaza h salah writes who is josie hadas i see you didn t notice my recent posting the fbi found that josie hadas was simply an alias taken by salameh i have the sources for the information in the chronology including the ny daily news of march that reports the arrest of josie hadas and a copy of the foreign press reports of her release shortly afterwards what is the source for your alias story and pray tell me how can the fbi arrest and release an alias what is the relationship between that person and the israeli mussad zilch zero nothing like the iq of the idiot who posted this absurdity in the first place what has iq to do with collecting information and putting it forward why has the fbi refused comment on the guardian reporter s question about hadas link with israeli intelligence the information did not mention the mossad explicitly
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re islam borders vs israeli borders in article c wjj j r newsflash concordia ca ilyess ece concordia ca ilyess bdira writes in article bimacs bitnet ehrlich bimacs bitnet gideon ehrlich writes what are the borders the islamic world dreams about the islamic world dreams of being the whole planet but not by kicking the current inhabitant out we rather deam of the day everybody converts if jews had the same dream i would not feel threatened a bit there certainly are muslims who do not believe that their dream of a global islamic community should be achieved through force there are however others and they are often far more visible vocal than the former who do accept the establishment of global islam through force i would not feel threatened by those only accepting or pursuing islamicization through peaceful means nor by jews advocating the same approach those advocating force as a means of expanding their side s power are certainly a threat to palestinians israel is doing just that maintaining its dominance of those outside its own group if i am told that i am not one of you but you then impose your control on me damn right you are a threat if i am a member of a non muslim minority inside the islamic world and actively did not accept my minority status i would also certainly see islam s domination as having been acheived and maintained through the powerful coercive force all majorities wield over minorities within their ranks islamic readers i am waiting to your honest answer i want also a honest answer from zionists for the following questions i am not a zionist but do feel that both jewish and palestinian nationalist desires need at this juncture to be accepted in some way why do jews who don t even believe in god as is the case with many of the founders of secular zionism have a right in palestine more than the inhabitants of palestine just because god gave you the land for the same reason that some muslims believe it is proper and righteous for islam to be spread by force upon those who do not want that why do most of them speak of the west bank as theirs while most of the inhabitants are not jews and do not want to be part of israel i refer to the most you also refer to because they are scared and feel very threatened as well feeling that this area is to some degree part of their belief religion heritage identity etc i too strongly object to those that justify israeli rule of those who do not want that the occupied territories are not israel s to control to keep or to dominate tim
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re islam borders vs israeli borders in article c wjj j r newsflash concordia ca ilyess ece concordia ca ilyess bdira writes why do jews who don t even believe in god as is the case with many of the founders of secular zionism have a right in palestine more than the inhabitants of palestine just because god gave you the land g d has nothing to do with it some of the land was in fact given to the jews by the united nations quite a bit of it was purchased from arab absentee landlords present claims are based on prior ownership purchase from aforementioned absentee landlords award by the united nations in the partition of the palestine mandate territory and as the result of defensive wars fought against the egyptians syrians jordanians et al why do most of them speak of the west bank as theirs while most of the inhabitants are not jews and do not want to be part of israel first i should point out that many jews do not in fact agree with the idea that the west bank is theirs since however i agree with those who claim the west bank i think i can answer your question thusly the west bank was what is called the spoils of war hussein ordered the arab legion to attack israel which was a poor move seeing as how the israelis promptly kicked his butt the territory is therefore forefeit retaining possession of all of the west bank is not desirable but it beats national suicide for the israelis put another way one could ask why it is that so many palestinians seem to think that tel aviv belongs to them and the future state of palestine as long as this state of affairs continues it seems that to give the palestinians a place from which they can launch attacks on jews is a real poor idea giving up the entire west bank would be idiotic froma security standpoint in addition there is the small matter of jerusalem which is considered to be part of the west bank the chances of the israelis giving up jerusalem are nil even leftists who think yasser is a really cool dude like yossi sarid aren t going to propose giving up jerusalem if he did he d get run out of town on a rail chag sameach jeff
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re wtc bombing tclock orion oac uci edu tim clock writes but hadas might be a fictitious character invented by the two men for billing purposes said mohammed mehdi head of the arab american relations committee tim i would remind readers of the fact that the ny daily news on march th reported the arrest of joise hadas foreign newspapers reported her release shortly afterwards i can provide copies of the articles upon request alaa zeineldine
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armenian genocide of the muslim people in and in article c a mcj news cso uiuc edu ptg uxa cso uiuc edu panos tamamidis writes alah alah kleriklemek mutuglu diyeni de la malakismenos kolo tourkos likkleserfelc ekmek salam toukoutakli ranadas sarma geke re ti eipate yok plaka numarani alalim kanw re source a alper gazigiray osmanlilardan gunumuze kadar vesikalarla ermeni teroru nun kaynaklari gozen kitabevi istanbul pp van dan sonra ilk isyan sebinkarahisar da basladi senesi haziran da sivasli murat hamparsum boyaciyan sa denilen bir caninin emri altinda kadar cete sebinkarahisari basti burasi o zaman en onemli askeri bir yerdi erzurum bolgesinde rus ordusu ile savasan osmanli ordularinin butun ikmal araclari buradan gecmekte idi ermeniler boyle onemli bir yer isgal ettikleri takdirde turk ordularinin ikmali yapilamayacak ve rus ordularinin harekati kolaylasacakti sebinkarahisarin islam mahalleleri tamamen atese verildi her rastlanan turk iskence ile olduruldu mus da ayni sekilde isyan devam ediyordu sason daglari ermeni eskiyalariyla dolu idi bu isyanlari ordunun arkasini vurmak ve rus ordusunun ilerlemesini saglamak icin ermenilerin pasa dedikleri rupen idare ediyordu bundan baska rus ordularinin rus turk sinirindan gecerek turk topraklarina girdikleri bu safhada rus ordusu icinde bulunan ermeni gonullu alaylariyla rus ordularinin isgali altina giren ermeni koylerindeki silahli halk turk koylerine hucum ederek bu koyleri yakip yikmislar ve turk halkini hatira gelmeyen mezalim ve iskence ile oldurmulerdir p bu suretle sehirde gun cok kanli olaylar cereyan etti bu sure sonunda van ermeniler tarafindan tamamen isgal olundu buradan kacabilen turklerin ermenilerin davranislari hakkinda verdikleri haberler tuyler urpertici idi cunku isyancilar halkin cogunu oldurmus kadinlarin irzina gecmis turk kadin ve kizlarini bazi evlerde topladiktan sonra buralarini genelev haline getirmislerdir o zaman van da kadar kadin ve cocuktan baska turk kalmamis bunlari da oradaki amerikalilar korumustur sehir bastan basa harab olmus carsi kamilen yanmisti serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
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re if you feed armenians dirt you will bite dust in apr urartu sdpa org dbd urartu sdpa org david davidian writes david davidian says turkish officials came to armenia last september and armenia given assurances the armenian nuclear plant would stay shut turkey promised armenia electricity and in the middle of december turkey said sorry we were only joking armenia froze this past winter armenians lost their lives turkey claims it allowed humanitarian aid to enter armenia through its border with turkey what did turkey do it replaced the high quality grain from europe with crap from turkey mixed in dirt and let that garbage through to armenia armenians lost their lives this is the latest from upi foreign ministry spokesman ferhat ataman told journalists turkey was closing its air space to all flights to and from armenia and would prevent humanitarian aid from reaching the republic overland across turkish territory historically even the most uncivilized of peoples have exhibited signs of compassion by allowing humanitarian aid to reach civilian populations even the nazis did this much it seems as though from now on turkey will publicly pronounce themselves hypocrites should they choose to continue their condemnation of the serbians neophytos iacovou university of minnesota email iacovou cs umn edu computer science department rutgers umn cs iacovou
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re israelis murdered in march in article apr thunder mcrcim mcgill edu hasan mcrcim mcgill edu writes after a small refresh hasan got on the track again in article flax apr frej teknikum uu se flax frej teknikum uu se jonas flygare writes in article apr thunder mcrcim mcgill edu hasan mcrcim mcgill edu writes in article flax apr frej teknikum uu se flax frej teknikum uu se jonas flygare writes i get the impression hasan realized he goofed and is now trying to drop the thread let him it might save some miniscule portion of his sorry face not really since i am a logical person who likes furthering himself from any name calling i started trashing any article that contains such abuses without responding to and sometimes not even reading articles written by those who acquired such bad habits from bad company ah but in my followup on the subject which you by the way never bothered responding to there was no name calling hence the assumption do you feel more up to it now so that we might have an answer or to refresh your memory does the human right issue in the area apply to palestinians only also do you claim there is such a thing as forfeiting a human right if that s possible then explain to the rest of us how there can exist any such thing use your logic and convince us this is your golden chance jonas flygare well ok let s see what master of wisdom mr jonas flygare wrote that can be wisdomely responded to are you calling names or giving me a title if the first read your paragraph above if not i accept the title in order to let you get into the um well debate again master of wisdom writes in mar frej teknikum uu se hasan flax hasan in case you didnot know palestineans were there for months and they are coming back when you agree to give palestineans their human rights afterall human rights arenot negotiable correct me if i m wrong but isn t the right to one s life also a human right or does it only apply to palestinians no it is everybody s right however when a killer kills then he is giving up willingly or unwillingly his life s right to the society the society represented by the goverment would exercise its duty by depriving the killer off his life s right so then it s all right for israel to kill the people who kill israelis the old eye for an eye thinking funny i thought modern legal systems were made to counter exactly that so what do you expect me to tell you to tell you master of wsidom if you insist on giving me names titles i did not ask for you could at least spell them correctly sigh when you are intentionally neglecting the most important fact that the whole israeli presence in the occupied territories is illegitimate and hence all their actions their courts their laws are illegitimate on the ground of occupied territories no i am not neglecting that i m merely asking you whether the existance of israeli citicens in the wb or in gaza invalidates those individuals right to live a as you so eloquently put it human right we can get back to the question of which law should be used in the territories later also you have not adressed my question if the israelis also have human rights what do you expect me to tell you master of wisdom when i did explain my point in the post that you responded to the point is that since israel is occupying then it is automatically depriving itself from some of its rights to the occupied palestineans which is exactly similar the automatic deprivation of a killer from his right of life to the society if a state can deprive all it s citizens of human rights by its actions then tell me why any human living today should have any rights at all in conjugtion with the above when a group of people occupies others territories and rule them by force then this group would be willingly or unwillingly deprived from some of its rights such as the right to live that s nice the swedish government is a group of people that rule me by force does that give me the right to kill them do you consider yourself that you have posed a worthy question here worthy or not i was just applying your logic to a related problem am i to assume you admit it wouldn t hold what kind of rights and how much would be deprived is another issue the answer is to be found in a certain system such as international law us law israeli law and now it s very convenient to start using the legal system to prove a point excuse me while i throw up ok master of wisdom is throwing up you people stay away from the screen while he is doing it oh did you too watch that comedy where they pipe water through the telephone i ll let you in on a secret it s not for real take my word for it it seems that the us law represented by us state dept in this case is looking to the other way around when violence occurs in occupied territories anyway as for hamas then obviously they turned to the islamic system and which system do you propose we use to solve the me problem the question is not which system would solve the me problem why because any system can solve it the laws of minister sharon says kick palestineans out of here all palestine i asked for which system should be used that will preserve human rights for all people involved i assumed that was obvious but i won t repeat that mistake now that i have straightened that out i m eagerly awaiting your reply joseph weitz administrator responsible for jewish colonization said it best when writing in his diary in between ourselves it must be clear that there is no room for both peoples together in this country we shall not achieve our goal of being an independent people with the arabs in this small country the only solution is a palestine at least western palestine west of the jordan river without arabs and there is no other way than to transfer the arabs from here to the neighbouring countries to transfer all of them not one village not one tribe should be left only after this transfer will the country be able to absorb the millions of our own brethren there is no other way out davar september courtesy of marc afifi just a question if we are to disregard the rather obvious references to getting israel out of me one way or the other in both plo covenant and hamas charter that s the english translations if you have other information i d be interested to have you translate it why should we give any credence to a private paper even older i m not going to get into the question if he wrote the above but it s fairly obvious all parties in the conflict have their share of fanatics guess what those are not the people that will make any lasting peace in the region ever it s those who are willing to make a tabula rasa and start over and willing to give in order to get something back we and our either refers to zionists or jews i donot know which well i can give you an answer you master of wisdom i will not suggest the imperialist israeli system for solving the me problem i think that is fair enough no that is not an answer since i asked for a system that could solve the problem you said any could be used then you provided a contradiction guess where that takes your logic to never never land the greatest problem of zionism is arab children rabbi shoham oh and by the way let me add that these cute quotes you put at the end are a real bummer when i try giving your posts any credit jonas flygare wherever you go there you are v ktargatan f uppsala sweden
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