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talk.politics.mideast
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re was go hezbollah i will try to answer some of dorin s questions even though they were not addressed to me specifically but i feel that i am a bit concerned by the thread since i am a southern lebanese from a village that is often on the receiving end of israel s bombs in the first place the death of three soldiers on a patrol in occupied lebanese terrritory is not an act of terrorism or murder it is disingeneous to compare their death to that of athletes in munich or any other act of terrorism or mrder this exercise is aimed solely at diverting the issue and is far from the truth it seems to me dorin that you are so remote and ignorant of the problem on the ground that your comments can only be charactrized as irrelevant and heavily colored by the preconceptions and misinformation i will try to paint the most accurate picture i can of what the situation really is in south lebanon in article apr unocal com stssdxb st unocal com dorin baru writes is there any israeli a civilian in your opinion now i do not condone myself bombing villages any kind of villages but you claim these are villages with civilians and iraelis claim they are camps filled with terrorists you claim that israelis shell the villages with the hope of finding a terrorist or so if they kill one fine if not too bad civilians die right i am not so sure i am i was back in my home village this last summer for your information we are people not a bunch of indiscriminate terrorists most of the people in my village are regular inhabitants that go about their daily business some work in the fields some own small shops others are older men that go to the coffe shop and drink coffee is that so hard to imagine it is not a terrorist camp as you and the israelis like to view the villages they are small communities with kids playing soccer in the streets women preparing lunch men playing cards etc some young men usually aged between to years are members of the lebanese resistance even the inhabitants of the village do not know who these are they are secretive about it but most people often suspect who they are and what they are up to these young men are supported financially by iran most of the time they sneak arms and ammunitions into the occupied zone where they set up booby traps for israeli patrols every time an israeli soldier is killed or injured by these traps israel retalliates by indiscriminately bombing villages of their own choosing often killing only innocent civilians once they are back they announce that they bombed a terrorist hideout where an year old girl just happened to be we are now accustomed to israeli tactics and we figure that this is the israeli way of telling us that if you re gonna hurt our soldiers you re gonna pay the price we accept this as a price we have to pay to free our land israel knows very well that it is not really hurting the resistance that much militarily with these strikes but rather just keeping the pressure on the villagers to demand from their young men to stop attacking israeli soldiers since these attacks are taking a heavy toll on the lives of the civilian villagers israel s retalliation policy is cold hearted but a reality that we have come to accept and deal with the lebanese resistance on the other hand is not going to stop its attacks on occupying israeli soldiers until they withdraw this is the only real leverage that they have to force israel to withdraw the people of south lebanon are occupied or shelled by israel on a regular basis we do not want to be occupied if israel insists that the so called security zone is necessary for the protection of northern israel than it will have to pay the price of its occupation with the blood of its soldiers if israel is interested in peace than it should withdraw from our land we are not asking for the establishment of a lebanese occupied zone in northern israel to protect our villages that are attacked on a regular basis by israel so the best policy seems to be the removal of israeli occupation and the establishment of peace keeping troops along the border i have written before on this very newsgroup that the only real solution will come as a result of a comprehensive peace settlement whereby israel withdraws to its own borders and peace keeping troops are stationed along the border to insure no one on either side of the border is shelled this is the only realistic solution it is time for israel to realize that the concept of a buffer zone aimed at protecting its northern cities has failed in fact it has caused much more israeli deaths than the occasional shelling of northern israel would have resulted in if israel really wants to save some israeli lives it would withdraw unilaterally from the so called security zone before the conclusion of the peace talks such a move would save israeli lives advance peace efforts give israel a great moral lift better israel s public image abroad and give it an edge in the peace negociations since israel can rightly claim that it is genuinely interested in peace and has already offered some important concessions along with such a withdrawal israel could demand that hizbollah be disarmed by the lebanese government and warn that it will not accept any attacks against its northern cities and that if such a shelling occurs than it will consider re taking the buffer zone and will hold the lebanese and syrian government responsible for it there seems to be very little incentive for the syrian and lebanese goovernment to allow hizbollah to bomb israel proper under such circumstances and now the lebanese government has proven that it is capable of controlling and disarming all militias as they did in all other parts of lebanon if you ask me those questions i will have no problem answering not with a question as you did no nobody is qualified candidate for murder nothing justifies murder i agree only in the case of the isareli soldiers their killing cannot be qualified as murder no matter what you say i have the feeling that you may be able yourself to make similar statements maybe after eliminating all israelis jews am i wrong yes we have no quarrel with jews or israeli civilians the real problem is with occupying israeli soldiers and those brave israeli pilots that bomb our civilian villages every time an occupying soldier is attacked dorin basil
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re serdar argic in apr fourd com bill paxton fourd com writes hello serdar i would like very much to meet you where are you located let me know as soon as possible where we can meet i am looking forward to meeting you i don t know how to reach serdar but you might be able to reach his sysadmin by email phone or snail mail here is information from rs internic net ahmet cosar anatolia dom s th st suite c minneapolis minnesota domain name anatolia org administrative contact technical contact zone contact cosar ahmet ac cosar anatolia org and here is what finger cosar umn edu gets you name ahmet cosar info last registered winter qtr internet mailbox cosa student tc umn edu other mailbox profs cosa umntcml postal address so th st apt c minneapolis mn surname cosar telephone title grad userid cosa x mailbox g ahmet s cosar ou mail o tc prmd umn edu admd c us warren nysernet org
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warsaw ghetto uprising th anniversary a visitor s abc original message d sb mincha tish a yamim la omer yom chamishi y d b nisan thshn g universita varsha b varsha galut hamara meod shalom all those of you visiting the ghetto city these days might be interested in the following events timetable abridged fri th april kabbalat shabbat service at the nozyk shul twarda street warsaw a mins walk from the palace of science culture the tallest building in the city s centre the same distance from the central railway station sat th april shacharit l shabbat service nozyk shul sun th april the fallen ones memorial service nozyk shul sun th april memorial ceremony at the jewish cemetery okopowa street warsaw sun th april official arts programme at the congress hall a building adjacent to the palace of science culture which like the shul is located a quarter s walk from most of downtown hotels bristol forum victoria europejski holiday inn marriott mon th april laying of wreaths at the ghetto heros monument shabbat shalom ul hitraot b varsha shelomoh slawek zieniuk student univ of warsaw dept of hebrew warsaw ani shalom v khi adaber hema lamilchama tehillim q k z guest e mail account plearn bitnet
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re go hezbollah congratulations also are due to the hamas activists who blew up the world trade center no after all with every american that they put in the grave they are underlining the usa s bankrupt imperialist policies go hamas blah blah blah blah blah brad you are only asking that that violence that you love so much come back to haunt you nissan
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re fundamentalism again ok someone is fundamentalist someone else is not what defines a fundamentalist not who that is an essential question which nobody has agreed upon an answer at least to what literature discussion news i ve seen mohammad r khan khan nova gmi edu after july please send mail to mkhan nyx cs du edu
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re go hezbollah in article c hiyr news cso uiuc edu eshneken ux cso uiuc edu edward a shnekendorf writes brad you re a very sick son of a bitch wishing for someone s death even if they are your enemy is very deranged i really have pity for you and those like you did you acquire this philosophy from islam brad hernlem hernlem chess ncsu edu ed this is an interesting question to ponder did brad ali s sickness make ayatollah style islam attractive to him or did this new religion that brad ali has formally adopted give him this sickness jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president
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re was go hezbollah in article c i j f a eis calstate edu mafifi eis calstate edu marc a afifi writes diplomacy has not worked with israel of course it hasn t besides egypt the rest of the arab world still officially denies that israel exists and the lebanese people are tired of being occupied they are now turning to the only option they see as viable kick out syria don t forget that it worked in driving out the us american occupied lebanon that s a new one on me jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president
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re was go hezbollah in article apr ncsu edu hernlem chess ncsu edu brad hernlem writes hezbollah and other lebanese resistance fighters are skilled at precision bombing of sla and israeli targets it s hard to beat a car bomb with a suicidal driver in getting right up to the target before blowing up even booby traps and radio controlled bombs under cars are pretty efficient killers you have a point i find such methods to be far more restrained and responsible is this part of your islamic value system than the israeli method of shelling and bombing villages with the hope that a hezbollah member will be killed along with the civilians murdered had israeli methods been anything like this then iraq wouldn ve been nuked long ago entire arab towns deported and executions performed by the tens of thousands the fact is though that israeli methods aren t even th as evil as those which are common and everyday in arab states soldiers are trained to die for their country three idf soldiers did their duty the other day these men need not have died if their government had kept them on israeli soil israeli soil brad ali just wait until the ayatollah s thought police get wind of this it s all holy muslim soil tm have you forgotten may allah have mercy on you now brad hernlem hernlem chess ncsu edu jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president
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re deriving pleasure from death peter garfiel freeman writes them by the way i do not applaud the killing of any human being including prisoners sentenced to death by our illustrious justice department peace marc boy you really are a stupid person our justice department does not sentence people to death that s up to state courts again get a brain peter i think you are ridiculous here stupidity is not a measure of how well someone knows our judicial system i guess marc meant that he is against death penalty but no matter what he meant your statement not justified regards dorin
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re news briefs from kh in article qg gdinnge anaconda cis ohio state edu karbasi cis ohio state edu writes nehzat e aazaadee s member have many times been arrested and tortured and as we speak some of them are still in prison the above item confirms the long standing suspicion that the only reason this regime has not destroyed nehzat e aazaadee completely is just to show off and brag about the freedom of expression in iran in its propaganda paper get serious if this regime had its way there would be absolutely no freedom of expression anywhere not even in sci there really isnt as seen by the heavy usage of anonymous posting if iri sympathizers didnt roam around in sci anon poster would get used only occasionally as in the good old days
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re reasons was re was go hezbollah hossien amehdi writes in article apr unocal com stssdxb st unocal com dorin baru writes now about tough talk and arrogance we are adults aren t we do you listen to tough talk of american politicians or switch the channel i guess i didn t make my point clear in the case of israel government it is not only tough talk for its intimidation policy after all not many people are intimidated just by talking here how it goes tough talks followed by aggressive actions followed by taking pride of those actions and bragging about them agressive actions are taken by both sides tough talk is done by both sides when an arab leader is menacing to throw all jews in the water is also tough talk i think and killing people is mildly agressive justified in your opinion if they are israeli soldiers justified in others opinion if they are jews not justified at all in others opinion when brad wrote the article about israelis killed ther was a lot of pride and satisfaction in his lines that s what i feel disgusting we may agree or not when a killing is technically murder but being enthousiastic about it and again i may appreciate some of your points but you are not objective that is not a blame just a remark dorin
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re israeli expansion lust in article apr bnr ca zbib bnr ca writes in article apr das harvard edu adam endor uucp adam shostack writes in article apr bnr ca zbib bnr ca writes imho it does not really matter who started any individual battle within the arabs isreal war context the real question is who what started the war does anyone have any doubts it was the creation of israel on arab land huh a war was started when several armies invaded israel vowing to drive the jews into the sea most jews wanted to live in peace and the arabs who stayed in israel were granted citizenship i am surprised that you don t consider the acquisition of land by the jews from arabs for the purpose of establishing an exclusive state as a hostile action leading to war it was for the purpose of establishing a state not an exclusive state if the state was to be exclusive it would not have arab citizens and no i do not consider the purchase of land a hostile action when someone wants to buy land and someone else is willing to sell it at a mutually agreeable price then that is commerce it is not a hostile action leading to war as to whether the jews wanted to live in peace maybe however they wanted and still want an exclusively jewish state where jews are in control and jews are the masters of the land living in peace is meaningless unless it means living with someone else as equal for a native arab this does not leave many options oh you mean like both jews and arabs being citizens the arabs who stayed are now citizens with as much right to choose who they vote for as the jews those palestinians who stayed actually stayed despite of what happened and their number was somewhat tolerated as a defenseless and ineffective minority if i were wrong you d have israel recall all the palestinian refugees we re talking millions after all they are civilians huh the people who left did so voluntarily there is no reason for israel to let them in israel gave citizenship to the remaining arabs because it had to maintain a democratic facade to keep the western aid flowing israel got no western aid in nor in or it still granted citizenship to those arabs who remained and how is granting citizenship a facade tell me something sam what makes land arab how shall i explain its a contract between the man and the land control isn t it the ottomans ruled years and then left with barely a trace the concept of land identity is somewhat foreign to the mobile and pragmatic west it is partly the concept of le sol natal native soil i know that jews had previous history in the region but none in recent memory i m talking everyday life not archeology try again you tell me what its isn t but you fail to establish what it is also jews did have history in israel for over a thousand years there were lots of jews slaughtered by crusaders in israel there was a thriving community in gaza city from roughly jews were a majority in jerusalem from or so onwards does that make the land jewish adam adam shostack adam das harvard edu if we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors we sure wouldn t waste them on members of congress john perry barlow
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arafat re sampson in article copper denver colorado edu aaldoubo copper denver colorado edu shaqeeqa writes in article apr colorado edu perlman qso colorado edu eric s perlman writes perhaps though one can argue about whether or not the current palestinian delegation represents the plo i would hope it does not as the plo really doesn t have that kind of legitimacy does it matter to you naftaly adam and others that arafat advises the delegation and that the plo overall supports it does it also matter that arafat on behalf of the plo recognizes israel and its right to exist further does israel s new policy concerning direct negotiations with the plo hold any substance to the situation as a whole no he does not arafat explicitly denies this claim from a libyan televison interview with yasser arafat q some people say that the palestinian revolution has many times changed its strategies and tactics something which has left its imprint on the palestinian problem and on the palestinian liberation front the strategies and tactics have not been clear the question is is the direction of the palestinian problem clear the palestinian leadership has stopped or at least this is what has been said in the media this happened on the way to the dialogue with the united states the plo recognized something called israel a no no no we do not recognize the state of israel we said recognition when a palestinian state is established it will then decide if to recognize israel or not when it is established its parliament will convene and decide policies which it can justify through occupation because of this you have the grassroot movements that reject israel s authority and disregard for human rights and if israel was serious about peace it would abandon these policies and replace them with what if israel is to withdraw its control of any territory there must be two prerequsites one is that it leads to a reduction in deaths the second is that it should not weaken israels bargianing position with respect to peace talks leaving gaza unilateraly is a bad idea because it encourages arabs to think they can get what they want by killing jews the only way israel should pull out of gaza is at the end of negotiations these negotiations should lead to a mutually agreeable solution with security guarantees for both sides until arabs are ready to sit down at the table and talk again they should not expect or recieve more concessions adam adam shostack adam das harvard edu if we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors we sure wouldn t waste them on members of congress john perry barlow
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re fundamentalism again in article khan nova khan nova gmi edu mohammad razi khan writes one of my biggest complaints about using the word fundamentalist is that at least in the u s a people speak of muslime fundamentalists muslim but nobody defines what a jewish or christan fundamentalist is i wonder what an equal definition would be any takers the american press routinely uses the word fundamentalist to refer to both christians and jews christian fundementalists are often refered to in the context of anti abortion protests the american media also uses fundamentalist to refer to jews who live in judea samaria or gaza and to any jew who follows the torah adam adam shostack adam das harvard edu if we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors we sure wouldn t waste them on members of congress john perry barlow
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re deriving pleasure from death with regards to my condemnation of marc s ridiculous attacks on the american department of justice and further attacks on jews to anyone who took offense to my calling marc stupid i apologize for pointing out the obvious it was a waste of the net s time i hope though that most american citizens have the basic knowlege of the structure of american government to understand the relationship between the justice department as a part of the executive branch and the courts which are of the judicial branch marc s ignorance of basic civic knowlege underscores his inability to comprehend and interpret foreign affairs peace pete
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re israeli expansion lust in article apr bnr ca zbib bnr ca writes now if actions of the lebanese resistance help send the isrealis packing i m all for it if you are really concerned about bloodshed a little self criticism could do you a great favor one of these days you ll learn that the way to stop israel from fighting back is to stop attacking if there were no attacks in the security zone for a year because the lebanese army could maintain the peace then lebanon would be in much better shape tell me something though why do syrian troops not get attacked aren t they occupying lebanon israel has repeatedly stated that it will leave on two conditions one is a demonstration that the lebanese army can keep the peace the second is that the syrians pull out as well adam adam shostack adam das harvard edu if we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors we sure wouldn t waste them on members of congress john perry barlow
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re was go hezbollah in article c i j f a eis calstate edu mafifi eis calstate edu marc a afifi writes resistance fighters don t forget that it was the french resistance to the nazi occupying forces which eventually succeeded in driving out the hostile occupiers in wwii and all this time i thought it was the us britian invading normandy the constant round the clock bombing and the fact that the germans were fighting on two fronts how silly of me this is not to devalue the actions of the resistance movements but resistance movements did not defeat the nazis diplomacy has not worked with israel and the lebanese people are tired of being occupied they are now turning to the only option they see as viable don t forget that it worked in driving out the us israel has repeatedly stated that it will leave when the lebanese government shows that it can prevent attacks on israel and when the syrians agree to leave the lebanese have not tried diplomacy for very long or maybe they re not capable of getting rid of the syrians and iranians who occupy their land if they closed down the hezbolah and negotiated a withdrawl of syrian forces israel would be happy to leave adam adam shostack adam das harvard edu if we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors we sure wouldn t waste them on members of congress john perry barlow
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re was go hezbollah in article apr yuma acns colostate edu bh lance colostate edu writes most of brads post deleted we have come to accept and deal with the lebanese resistance on the other hand is not going to stop its attacks on occupying israeli soldiers until they withdraw this is the only real leverage that they have to force israel to withdraw tell me do these young men also attack syrian troops with the blood of its soldiers if israel is interested in peace than it should withdraw from our land there must be a guarantee of peace before this happens it seems that many of these lebanese youth are unable to restrain themselves from violence and unable to to realize that their actions prolong israels stay in south lebanon if the lebanese army was able to maintain the peace then israel would not have to be there until it is israel prefers that its soldiers die rather than its children if israel really wants to save some israeli lives it would withdraw unilaterally from the so called security zone before the conclusion of the peace talks such a move would save israeli lives advance peace efforts give israel a great moral lift better israel s public image abroad and give it an edge in the peace negociations since israel can rightly claim that it is genuinely interested in peace and has already offered some important concessions israel should withdraw from lebanon when a peace treaty is signed not a day before withdraw because of casualties would tell the lebanese people that all they need to do to push israel around is kill a few soldiers its not gonna happen along with such a withdrawal israel could demand that hizbollah be disarmed by the lebanese government and warn that it will not accept any attacks against its northern cities and that if such a shelling occurs than it will consider re taking the buffer zone and will hold the lebanese and syrian government responsible for it why should israel not demand this while holding the buffer zone it seems to me that the better bargaining position is while holding your neighbors land if lebanon were willing to agree to those conditions israel would quite probably have left already unfortunately it doesn t seem that the lebanese can disarm the hizbolah and maintain the peace adam adam shostack adam das harvard edu if we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors we sure wouldn t waste them on members of congress john perry barlow
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re was go hezbollah in article apr yuma acns colostate edu bh lance colostate edu writes it is not a terrorist camp as you and the israelis like to view the villages they are small communities with kids playing soccer in the streets women preparing lunch men playing cards etc some young men usually aged between to years are members of the lebanese resistance even the inhabitants of the village do not know who these are they are secretive about it but most people often suspect who they are and what they are up to these young men are supported financially by iran most of the time they sneak arms and ammunitions into the occupied zone where they set up booby traps for israeli patrols every time an israeli soldier is killed or injured by these traps israel retalliates by indiscriminately bombing villages of their own choosing often killing only innocent civilians this a tried and true method utilized by guerilla and terrorists groups to conduct operations in the midst of the local populace thus forcing the opposing state to possible harm innocent civilians in their search or in order to avoid the deaths of civilians abandon the search certainly the people who use the population for cover are also to blaim for dragging the innocent civilians into harm s way are you suggesting that when guerillas use the population for cover israel should totally back down so the easiest way to get away with attacking another is to use an innocent as a shield and hope that the other respects innocent lives if israel insists that the so called security zone is necessary for the protection of northern israel than it will have to pay the price of its occupation with the blood of its soldiers your damn right israel insists on some sort of demilitarized or buffer zone its had to put up with too many years of attacks from the territory of arab states and watched as the states did nothing it is not exactly surprizing that israel decided that the only way to stop such actions is to do it themselves if israel is interested in peace than it should withdraw from our land what so the whole bit about attacks on israel from neighboring arab states can start all over again while i also hope for this to happen it will only occur when arab states show that they are prepared to take on the responsibility and the duty to stop guerilla attacks on israel from their soil they have to prove it or provide some guaratees there is no way israel is going to accept their word not with their past attitude of tolerance towards anti israel guerillas in residence i have written before on this very newsgroup that the only real solution will come as a result of a comprehensive peace settlement whereby israel withdraws to its own borders and peace keeping troops are stationed along the border to insure no one on either side of the border is shelled good lord brad what in the world goves you the idea that un troops stop anything they are only stationed in a country because that country allows them in it can ask them to leave at any time as nasser did in and somehow with that limitation on the troops powers i don t think that israel is going to be any more comfortable without a genuine commitment to peace from the arab states and concrete not intellectual or political exercises in jargon guarantees by other parties the un is worthless to israel but perhaps useful as a ruse this is the only realistic solution it is time for israel to realize that the concept of a buffer zone aimed at protecting its northern cities has failed in fact it has caused much more israeli deaths than the occasional shelling of northern israel would have resulted in perhaps you are aware that to most communities of people there is the feeling that it is better that many of us die fighting against those who attack us than for few to die while we silently accept our fate if however you call on israel to see the sense of suffering fewer casualties i suggest you apply the same to palestinian arab and islamic groups if israel really wants to save some israeli lives it would withdraw unilaterally from the so called security zone before the conclusion of the peace talks such a move would save israeli lives advance peace efforts give israel a great moral lift better israel s public image abroad and give it an edge in the peace negociations since israel can rightly claim that it is genuinely interested in peace and has already offered some important concessions along with such a withdrawal israel could demand that hizbollah be disarmed by the lebanese government and warn that it will not accept any attacks against its northern cities and that if such a shelling occurs than it will consider re taking the buffer zone and will hold the lebanese and syrian government responsible for it from israel s perspective concessions gets it nothing except the realization that it has given something up and now can only hope that the other side decides to do likewise words can be taken back by merely doing so to take back tangible items land control of land requires the sort of action you say israel should stay away from israel put up with attacks from arab state territories for decades before essentially putting a stop to it through its invasion of lebanon the entire basis of that reality was exactly as you state above israel would express outrage at these attacks and protest to the arab state involved that state promptly ignored the entire matter secure in the knowledge that it could not be held responsible for the acts committed by private groups israel would prepare for the next round of attacks what would israel want to return to those days and don t be so idiotic as to suggest trust for the motivations of present day arab states there seems to be very little incentive for the syrian and lebanese goovernment to allow hizbollah to bomb israel proper under such circumstances ah ok what is different about the present situation that tells us that the arab states will not pursue their past antagonistic policies towards israel now don t talk about vague political factors but about those tangible just like that which israel gave up factors that guarantee the responsibility of those states your assessment of difference here is based on a whole lot of assumptions and most states don t feel confortable basing their existence on that sort of thing and now the lebanese government has proven that it is capable of controlling and disarming all militias as they did in all other parts of lebanon basil it has not without the support and active involvement of syria lebanon would not have been able to accomplish all that has occurred once syria leaves who is to say that lebanon will be able to retain control if syria stays thay may be even more dangerous for israel tim your view of this entire matter is far too serenely one sided and selectively naive
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re was go hezbollah in article apr yuma acns colostate edu bh longs lance colostate edu basil hamdan writes snip in the first place the death of three soldiers on a patrol in occupied lebanese terrritory is not an act of terrorism or murder it is disingeneous to compare their death to that of athletes in munich or any other act of terrorism or mrder this exercise is aimed solely at diverting the issue and is far from the truth i agree that the death of three soldiers on a patrol etc is not terrorism that having been said lets continue snip imagine it is not a terrorist camp as you and the israelis like to view the villages they are small communities with kids playing soccer in the streets women preparing lunch men playing cards etc i would not argue that all or even most of the villages are terrorist camps there are however some which come very close to serving that purpose and that is not to say that other did not function in that way prior to the invasion some young men usually aged between to years are members of the lebanese resistance even the inhabitants of the village do not know who these are they are secretive about it but most people often suspect who they are and what they are up to these young men are supported financially by iran most of the time they sneak arms and ammunitions into the occupied zone where they set up booby traps for israeli patrols every time an israeli soldier is killed or injured by these traps israel retalliates by indiscriminately bombing villages of their own choosing often killing only innocent civilians once they are back they announce that they bombed a terrorist hideout where an year old girl just happened to be some of the villages and yours might well be among them are as you describe not all are there are a large number of groups in the area backed by various organizations with a wide range of purposes hizbollah and amal were two of the larger ones and may still be as to retaliation while mistakes may be made that is still a far cry from indiscriminate bombing which would have produced major casualties israel s retalliation policy is cold hearted but a reality that we have come to accept and deal with the lebanese resistance on the other hand is not going to stop its attacks on occupying israeli soldiers until they withdraw this is the only real leverage that they have to force israel to withdraw well here we disagree i think that israel would willingly withdraw if the lebanese gov t was able to field a reliable force in the area to police it and prevent further attacks this is the only realistic solution it is time for israel to realize that the concept of a buffer zone aimed at protecting its northern cities has failed in fact it has caused much more israeli deaths than the occasional shelling of northern israel would have resulted in actually that is not clear at all i will agree that the death toll is no longer civilian and now primarily military though there seems to be very little incentive for the syrian and lebanese goovernment to allow hizbollah to bomb israel proper under such circumstances and now the lebanese government has proven that it is capable of controlling and disarming all militias as they did in all other parts of lebanon no the syrian gov t is more than happy to have israel sink into another lebanese morass i could elaborate if necessary i agree only in the case of the isareli soldiers their killing cannot be qualified as murder no matter what you say no but it is regretable as is the whole situation shai guday stealth bombers os software engineer thinking machines corp the winged ninjas of the skies cambridge ma
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re was go hezbollah on apr gmt amehdi src honeywell com hossien amehdi said in article apr src honeywell com amehdi src honeywell com hossien amehdi writes who is the you arabs here since you are replying to my article you are assuming that i am an arab well i m not an arab but i think you are brain is full of shit if you really believe what you said the bombardment of civilian and none civilian areas in lebanon by israel is very consistent with its policy of intimidation that is the only policy that has been practiced by the so called only democracy in the middle east i was merley pointing out that the other side is also suffering like i said i m not an arab but if i was say a lebanese you bet i would defende my homeland against any invader by any means the syrians iranian agents or just israeli invaders gary bradski i net bradski park bu edu reverberate cognitive and neural systems boston university v v cummington st boston ma y i don t even agree with some of my opinions or die
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it is sickening to think that the armenians are capable of such in article apr sol ctr columbia edu halsall murray fordham edu paul halsall writes it s curious that serdar spend his time attacking greeks and armenians who just happen to be historical opponents of turkey the because the x soviet armenian government got away with the genocide of million turkish men women and children and is enjoying the fruits of that genocide and they are doing it again are you so blind problem is everybody arab greek bulgar serb russian tartar circassian persian kurd is or has been an opponent who has been kurds r us armenians r not an ally this historic circumstance seems to have taken a certain toll on serdar perhaps he should be posting to alt raving nationalist rather than soc history excuse me we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the tartars and then proceeded in the work of extermination our troops surrounded village after village little resistance was offered our artillery knocked the huts into heaps of stone and dust and when the villages became untenable and inhabitants fled from them into fields bullets and bayonets completed the work some of the tartars escaped of course they found refuge in the mountains or succeeded in crossing the border into turkey the rest were killed and so it is that the whole length of the borderland of russian armenia from nakhitchevan to akhalkalaki from the hot plains of ararat to the cold mountain plateau of the north were dotted with mute mournful ruins of tartar villages they are quiet now those villages except for howling of wolves and jackals that visit them to paw over the scattered bones of the dead ohanus appressian men are like that p a genocide is a deliberate and organized massacre of people in an attempt to exterminate a race this is the worst crime in history it happened to the turks in eastern anatolia and the armenian dictatorship million turks and kurds were killed in the worst ways imaginable it is sickening to think that the human race is capable of such actions but there is no denying the fact that the armenian genocide of million muslims happened people of turkiye deeply sympathize with those whose relatives were killed in the turkish genocide i understand their anger that there are those who still deny that the turkish genocide indeed took place despite the fact that the genocide of million turks has been well documented over the past six decades we cannot reverse the events of the past but we can and we must strive to keep the memory of this tragedy alive on this side of the atlantic so as to help prevent a recurrence of the extermination of a people because of their religion or their race source bristol papers general correspondence container bristol to bradley letter of september i have it from absolute first hand information that the armenians in the caucasus attacked tartar turkish villages that are utterly defenseless and bombarded these villages with artillery and they murder the inhabitants pillage the village and often burn the village lets get somethings straight why not armenians are no angels but they were subject to turkish genocide and the germans were subject to jewish genocide are you for real tell me halsall were you high on asala sdpa arf forgeries and fabrications when you wrote that where is your non existent list of scholars here is mine during the first world war and the ensuing years the armenian dictatorship through a premeditated and systematic genocide tried to complete its centuries old policy of annihilation against the turks and kurds by savagely murdering million muslims and deporting the rest from their year homeland the attempt at genocide is justly regarded as the first instance of genocide in the th century acted upon an entire people this event is incontrovertibly proven by historians government and international political leaders such as u s ambassador mark bristol william langer ambassador layard james barton stanford shaw arthur chester john dewey robert dunn papazian nalbandian ohanus appressian jorge blanco villalta general nikolayef general bolkovitinof general prjevalski general odiselidze meguerditche kazimir motayef twerdokhlebof general hamelin rawlinson avetis aharonian dr stephan eshnanie varandian general bronsart arfa dr hamlin boghos nubar sarkis atamian katchaznouni rachel bortnick halide edip mccarthy w b allen paul muratoff and many others j c hurewitz professor of government emeritus former director of the middle east institute columbia university bernard lewis cleveland e dodge professor of near eastern history princeton university halil inalcik university professor of ottoman history member of the american academy of arts sciences university of chicago peter golden professor of history rutgers university newark stanford shaw professor of history university of california at los angeles thomas naff professor of history director middle east research institute university of pennsylvania ronald jennings associate professor of history asian studies university of illinois howard reed professor of history university of connecticut dankwart rustow distinguished university professor of political science city university graduate school new york john woods associate professor of middle eastern history university of chicago john masson smith jr professor of history university of california at berkeley alan fisher professor of history michigan state university avigdor levy professor of history brandeis university andreas g e bodrogligetti professor of history university of california at los angeles kathleen burrill associate professor of turkish studies columbia university roderic davison professor of history george washington university walter denny professor of history university of massachusetts caesar farah professor of history university of minnesota tom goodrich professor of history indiana university of pennsylvania tibor halasi kun professor emeritus of turkish studies columbia university justin mccarthy professor of history university of louisville jon mandaville professor of history portland state university oregon robert olson professor of history university of kentucky madeline zilfi professor of history university of maryland james stewart robinson professor of turkish studies university of michigan so the list goes on and on and on now wait there is more mark alan epstein the ottoman jewish communities and their role in the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries klaus schwarz werlag freiburg page during the fifteenth century when the ottomans were struggling to reestablish themselves in the balkans there was considerable turmoil among the jewish communities in central and western europe even if the difficulties of the darker centuries immediately preceding the fourteenth are minimized it is easy to understand the attraction which ottoman life particularly when compared to life in europe held for the jews there is no way to tell how many jews left christendom for the realm of the rising muslim ottomans but with each account of persecution in or expulsion from christian countries it is recorded that some jews fled to ottoman territory the regularity of these reports suggests that the ottomans were considered reasonably tolerant protectors and that there was a regular trickle of jewish families moving southward and eastward from western and central europe it is evident that the effects of plague late crusades and the general intolerance and persecution of jews in christian europe resulted in the redirection of the whole focus of jewish life which for more than two centuries was to be oriented toward muslim east page in the second quarter of the fifteenth century the foremost official in the edirne jewish community was rabbi yitzhak sarfati the ashkenazi chief rabbi of the city he was the most important rabbi in the city and the author of an important letter which tells us something of the situation of the edirne jewry in the fifteenth century sarfati himself was from christian europe and supposedly wrote this letter at the behest of two recent arrivals from there who upon seeing the prosperity and freedom of the ottoman jews prevailed upon him to write their european coreligionists apprising them of the situation and urging them to migrate this remarkable letter advised its recipients not only of the pleasant conditions in the ottoman domains but described as well the ease of travel to palestine and the holy places an attraction to those who would make a pilgrimage or choose to be buried there page the impression gained from the hebrew sources is that the jews were firmly aware of the community of interests which existed between them and the ottomans especially in comparison to relations with the christians of europe confirmation of the commonality of interests between muslims and jews is also indicated by the fact that european christians perceived the jews as allies of islam and were well aware of muslim jewish cooperation certainly the activity of important jewish financiers and politicians representing the ottoman government abroad did not pass unnoticed european sources are the basis for much of our knowledge of their careers in addition it appears that christian pirates plundered turks and jews their sworn enemies and that europeans considered the jews to be agents who regularly reported to the ottomans there are well known examples of overt jewish support for the ottomans in the struggle against european powers the two best known instances of jewish support for the campaigning ottomans are the frequently cited instances of the jewish contributions to the conquests of buda in the early sixteenth century and of rhodes we also have reports of sympathy for the ottomans during the siege of chios an unpublished ottoman document shows dramatically the mutual interests which existed in some greek towns page it is clear that throughout the sixteenth century it was a generally accepted fact that the interests of jews and muslims coincided frequently and all parties involved jews muslims and christians were aware of the situation page it seems that the relations between greeks and jews were not particularly cordial the two groups had little in common few common interests and perceived no common philosophical or religious tradition which could serve as the basis for cooperation rather than enmity if there was any identifiable bond of good will which existed between religious communities in the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries it was that between muslims and jews neither of whom had much in common with the orthodox page the general impression of muslim jewish relations in the ottoman context during the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries is one of community of interests from the earliest times the ottomans seem to have welcomed jews to their territory and to have found in the communities already existing in places which they conquered a cooperative element the jewish response to this tolerance was a steady flow of jews from christian countries to ottoman domains page from the period before we have only a few indications that the ottoman jewish relationship was well on the course of amity which would characterize it for years afterward but the liberality of the ottomans in contrast to the intolerance of the byzantines and the protection and the security which the ottomans offered in comparison to conditions elsewhere leave little doupt that even then both the ottomans and the jews recognized their mutual interests page it is impossible to say how fundamental the jews were in the success of the ottomans in rebuilding istanbul or in ottoman mercantile success in the sixteenth century that they played an important role in both cannot be doupted it is also unclear whether they were important enough to say that the ottomans would not have experienced their great success without the jews and that no other group could have been found to serve the ottomans as well as did the jews it is however unmistakably clear that there are few parallels in world history to this remarkable partnership between jews and the non jewish society in which they lived we must conclude that the ottomans could probably not achieved their success without a group performing certain tasks for them as well as the jews did certainly for the jews of the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries the ottoman empire was a most remarkable and salubrious home a version of rabbi sarfati s tzarfati letter is given by prof shaw page your cries and sobs reached us we have been told of all the troubles and persecutions which you have to suffer in the german lands i hear the lamentation of my brethren the barbarous and cruel nation ruthlessly oppresses the faithful children of the chosen people the priests and prelates of rome have risen they wish to root out the memory of jacob and erase the name of israel they always devise new persecutions they wish to bring you to the stake listen my brethren to the counsel i will give you i too was born in germany and studied torah with the german rabbis i was driven out of my native country and came to the turkish land which is blessed by god and filled with all good things here i found rest and happiness turkey can also become for you the land of peace if you who live in germany knew even a tenth of what god has blessed us with in this land you would not consider any difficulties you would set out to come to us here in the land of the turks we have nothing to complain of we possess great fortunes much gold and silver in our hands we are not oppressed with heavy taxes and our commerce is free and unhindered rich are the fruits of the earth everything is cheap and every one of us lives in peace and freedom here the jew is not compelled to wear a yellow hat as a badge of shame as is the case in germany where even wealth and great fortune are a curse for a jew because he therewith arouses jealousy among the christians and they devise all kinds of slander against him to rob him of his gold arise my brethren gird up your loins collect your forces and come to us here you will be free of your enemies here you will find rest israel zinberg a history of jewish literature vol v the jewish center of culture in the ottoman empire hebrew union college press ktav publishers new york serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
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the armenian architect of the genocide of million muslim people in article apr husc harvard edu verbit germain harvard edu mikhail s verbitsky writes my personal problem with romanian culture is that i am not aware of one there is an anecdote about armenians troglodytism does not necessarily imply a low cultural level the image conscious armenians sorely feel a missing glory in their background armenians have never achieved statehood and independence they have always been subservient and engaged in undermining schemes against their rulers they committed genocide against the muslim populations of eastern anatolia and armenian dictatorship before and during world war i and fully participated in the extermination of the european jewry during world war ii belligerence genocide back stabbing rebelliousness and disloyalty have been the hallmarks of the armenian history to obliterate these episodes the armenians engaged in tailoring history to suit their whims in this zeal they tried to cover up the cold blooded genocide of million turks and kurds before and during world war i and you don t pull nations out of a hat source walker christopher armenia the survival of a nation new york st martin s press this generally pro armenian work contains the following information of direct relevance to the nazi holocaust a dro the butcher the former dictator of the armenian dictatorship and the architect of the genocide of million turks and kurds the most respected of nazi armenian leaders established an armenian provisional republic in berlin during world war ii b this provisional government fully endorsed and espoused the social theories of the nazis declared themselves and all armenians to be members of the aryan super race c they published an anti semitic racist journal thereby aligning themselves with the nazis and their efforts to exterminate the jews and d they mobilized an armenian army of up to members which fought side by side with the wehrmacht serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
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the museum of barbarism in article c i ap eld acsu buffalo edu v saum ubvmsb cc buffalo edu varnavas a lambrou writes what about cyprus the majority of the population is christian but your fellow turkish friends did and still doing a good job for you by cleaning the area from christians all your article reflects is your abundant ignorance the people of turkiye know quite well that greece and the greek cypriots will never abandon the idea of hellenizing cyprus and will remain eternally hopeful of uniting it with greece someday whatever the cost to the parties involved the history speaks for itself greece was the sole perpetrator of invasion on that island when it sent its troops on july in an attempt to topple the legitimate government of archibishop makarios following the greek cypriot attempt to annex the island to greece with the aid of the greek army turkiye intervened by using her legal right given by two international agreements turkiye did it for the frequently and conveniently forgotten people of the island turkish cypriots for those turkish cypriots whose grandparents have been living on the island since the release of nikos sampson a member of eoka national organization of cypriot fighters and a convicted terrorist shows that the enosis mentality continues to survive in greece one should not forget that sampson dedicated his life to annihilating the turks in cyprus committed murder to achieve this goal and tried to destroy the island s independence by annexing it to greece of course the greek governments will have to bear the consequences for this irresponsible conduct the museum of barbarism irfan bey street kumsal area nicosia cyprus it is the house of dr nihat ilhan a major who was serving at the cyprus turkish army contingent during the attacks launched against the turks by the greeks on th december dr nihat ilhan s wife and three children were ruthlessly and brutally killed in the bathroom where they had tried to hide by savage greeks dr nihat ilhan happened to be on duty that night the th december pictures reflecting greek atrocities committed during and after are exhibited in this house which has been converted into a museum an eye witness account of how a turkish family was butchered by greek terrorists the date is the th of december the onslaught of the greeks against the turks which started three days ago has been going on with all its ferocity and defenseless women old men and children are being brutally killed by greeks and now kumsal area of nicosia witnesses the worst example of the greeks savage bloodshed the wife and the three infant children of dr nihat ilhan a major on duty at the camp of the cyprus turkish army contingent are mercilessly and dastardly shot dead while hiding in the bathroom of their house by maddened greeks who broke into their home a glaring example of greek barbarism let us now listen to the relating of the said incident told by mr hasan yusuf gudum an eye witness who himself was wounded during the same terrible event on the night of the th of december my wife feride hasan and i were paying a visit to the family of major dr nihat ilhan our neighbours mrs ayshe of mora her daughter ishin and mrs ayshe s sister novber were also with us we were all sitting having supper all of a sudden bullets from the pedieos river direction started to riddle the house sounding like heavy rain thinking that the dining room where we were sitting was dangerous we ran to the bathroom and toilet which we thought would be safer altogether we were nine persons we all hid in the bathroom except my wife who took refuge in the toilet we waited in fear mrs ilhan the wife of major doctor was standing in the bath with her three children murat kutsi and hakan in her arms suddenly with a great noise we heard the front door open greeks had come in and were combing every corner of the house with their machine gun bullets during these moments i heard voices saying in greek you want taksim eh and then bullets started flying in the bathroom mrs ilhan and her three children fell into the bath they were shot at this moment the greeks who broke into the bathroom emptied their guns on us again i heard one of the major s children moan then i fainted when i came to myself or hours later i saw mrs ilhan and her three children lying dead in the bath i and the rest of the neighbours in the bathroom were all seriously wounded but what had happened to my wife then i remembered and immediately ran to the toilet where in the doorway i saw her body she was brutally murdered in the street admist the sound of shots i heard voices crying help help is there no one to save us i became terrified i thought that if the greeks came again and found that i was not dead they would kill me so i ran to the bedroom and hid myself under the double bed an our passed by in the distance i could still hear shots my mouth was dry so i came out from under the bed and drank some water then i put some sweets in my pocket and went back to the bathroom which was exactly as i had left in an hour ago there i offered sweets to mrs ayshe her daughter and mrs novber who were all wounded we waited in the bathroom until o clock in the morning i thought morning would never come we were all wounded and needed to be taken to hospital finally as we could walk mrs novber and i went out into the street hoping to find help and walked as far as koshklu chiftlik there we met some people who took us to hospital where we were operated on when i regained my consciousness i said that there were more wounded in the house and they went and brought mrs ayshe and her daughter after staying three days in the hospital i was sent by plane to ankara for further treatment there i have had four months treatment but still i cannot use my arm on my return to cyprus greeks arrested me at the airport all i have related to you above i told the greeks during my detention they then released me on foot into cyprus s devastated turkish quarter we went tonight into the sealed off turkish quarter of nicosia in which to people have been slaughtered in the last five days we were the first western reporters there and we saw some terrible sights in the kumsal quarter at no irfan bey sokagi we made our way into a house whose floors were covered with broken glass a child s bicycle lay in a corner in the bathroom looking like a group of waxworks were three children piled on top of their murdered mother in a room next to it we glimpsed the body of a woman shot in the head this we were told was the home of a turkish army major whose family had been killed by the mob in the first violence today was five days later and still they lay there rene maccoll and daniel mcgeachie from the daily express i saw in a bathroom the bodies of a mother and three infant children murdered because their father was a turkish officer max clos le figaro january peter moorhead reporting from the village of skyloura cyprus date january il giarno italy they are turk hunting they want to exterminate them discussions start in london in cyprus terror continues right now we are witnessing the exodus of turks from the villages thousands of people abandoning homes land herds greek cypriot terrorism is relentless this time the rhetoric of the hellenes and the bust of plato do not suffice to cover up barbaric and ferocious behaviors article by giorgo bocca correspondent of il giorno date january daily herald london an appalling sight and when i came across the turkish homes they were an appalling sight apart from the walls they just did not exist i doubt if a napalm bomb attack could have created more devastation i counted blackened brick and concrete shells that had once been homes each house had been deliberately fired by petrol under red tile roofs which had caved in i found a twisted mass of bed springs children s conts and cribs and ankle deep grey ashes of what had once been chairs tables and wardrobes in the neighbouring village of ayios vassilios a mile away i counted wrecked and burned out homes they were all turkish cypriot homes from this village more than turkish cypriots had also vanished in neither village did i find a scrap of damage to any greek cypriot house daily telegraph london graves of shot turkish cypriots found in cyprus village silent crowds gathered tonight outside the red crescent hospital in the turkish sector of nicosia as the bodies of turkish cypriots found crudely buried outside the village of ayios vassilios miles away were brought to the hospital under the escort of the parachute regiment three more bodies including one of a woman were discovered nearby but could not be removed turkish cypriots guarded by paratroops are still trying to locate the bodies of more believed to have been buried on the same site serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
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historical and traditional armenian barbarism and fascism source men are like that by leonard ramsden hartill the bobbs merrill company indianapolis pages memoirs of an armenian officer who participated in the genocide of million muslim people p first paragraph i was soon asleep in the night i was awakened by the persistent crying of a child i arose and went to investigate a full moon enabled me to make my way about and revealed to me all the wreck and litter of the tragedy that had been enacted guided by the child s crying i entered the yard of a house which i judged from its appearance must have been the home of a turkish family there in a corner of the yard i found a women dead her throat had been cut lying on her breast was a small child a girl about a year old serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
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muslims were one by one cruelly bayonetted to death by armenians in article apr news columbia edu lasner watsun cc columbia edu charles lasner writes how dare you presume that he even has a right to go around a newsgroup with a desire to convince others of any external position he has they are news because they are the exceptions and the islamic holocaust is much the topic of the day the historical evidence proves that during the period of to the armenian government ordered incited assisted and participated in the genocide of million muslim people because of race religion and national origin armenians perpetrated acts of sabotage destroyed telephone cables blew up bridges blocked passes set up ambushes attacked security stations and small turkish outposts behind the ottoman army lines on the one hand and on the other ruthlessly attacked turkish and kurdish villages slaughtering the turkish population indiscriminately women children old and young alike innocent muslims were one by one cruelly bayonetted to death or massacred with axes and swords or else shut up in mosques or in schools and then burnt alive as can be seen below widespread armenian massacres of innocent muslims took place in regions of van kars sivas erzurum bitlis erzincan mus diyarbakir and maras the ottoman army while fighting to prevent the russian invasion also had to deal with armenian genocide squads who cowardly hit from behind the armenian genocide of the muslims spread to all parts of eastern anatolia starting from late armenians committed widespread massacres and genocide in eastern anatolia because the arena was left to the armenians almost every turkish town and village from erzincan up to azerbaidjan suffered large scale massacres and genocide by armenians and the turkish genocide has been documented by armenian russian american british ottoman german austrian and french journalists and officers who observed the first genocide of this century committed by the blood thirsty armenian genocide squads the ottoman army liberating trabzon bayburt erzincan erzurum kars and other regions from the russians saw that the cities and their villages had been destroyed and burnt people slaughtered massacred the massacres conducted by armenians which became a black stain for humanity shocked and disgusted even the russian british german austrian french and american authorities almost every ottoman document is related to armenian massacres and cruelties the inhuman treatment cruelties atrocities genocide by armenian genocide squads perpetrated against innocent moslem turkish and kurdish people are sufficiently reflected in historical documents even today over seventy five years later the terrifying screams of the victims of these cruelties can be heard source documents volume i document no archive no cabin no drawer no file no section no contents no to lt colonel seyfi general headquarters second section istanbul dr stephan eshnanie neues wiener tagblatt vienna pester lloyd local anzliger berlin algemeen handelsblat amsterdam vakit istanbul i have been closely following for two weeks the withdrawal of russians and armenians from turkish territories through armenia although two months have elapsed since the clearing of the territories of armenian gangs i have been observing the evidence of the cruelties of the armenians at almost every step all the villages from trabzon to erzincan and from erzincan to erzurum are destroyed corpses of turks brutally and cruelly slain are everywhere according to accounts by those who were able to save their lives by escaping to mountains the first horrible and fearful events begun when the russian forces evacuated the places which were then taken over by armenian gangs the russians usually treated the people well but the people feared the intervention of the armenians once these places had been taken over by the armenians however the massacres begun they clearly announced their intention of clearing what they called the armenian and kurdish land from the turks and thus solve the nationality problem today i had the opportunity to meet austrian and german soldiers who had escaped from russian prison camps and come from kars and alexander paul gumru leninakan russian officers tried to save the turks and there were clashes between russian officers and armenian gangs i am now in erzurum and what i see is terrible almost the whole city is destroyed the smell of the corpses still fills the air although there are speculations that armenian gangs murdered austrian and german prisoners as well i could not get the supporting evidence in this regard but there is proof of murdering of turkish prisoners of war dr stephan eshnanie serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
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re turkish government agents on usenet lie through their teeth davidian babble the turkish government feels it can funnel a heightened state of ultra nationalism existing in turkey today onto usenet and convince people via its revisionist myopic and incidental view of themselves and their place in the world turkish government on usenet how long are you going to keep repeating this utterly idiotic and increasingly saddening drivel oz life of a people is a sea and those that look at it from the shore cannot know its depths armenian proverb
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turkey admits to sending arms to azerbaijan turkish pilot caught turkey sends light weapons as aid to azerbaijan by seva ulman ankara turkey upi turkey is arming azerbaijan with light weapons to help it fight armenian forces in the struggle for the nagorno karabakh enclave the newspaper hurriyet said thursday deputy prime minister erdal inonu told reporters in ankara that turkey was responding positively to a request from azerbaijan for assistance we are giving a positive response to all requests from azerbaijan within the limits of our capabilities he said foreign ministry spokesman vural valkan declined to elaborate on the nature of the aid being sent to azerbaijan but said they were within the framework of the council for security and cooperation in europe hurriyet published in istanbul said turkey was sending light weapons to azerbaijan including rockets rocket launchers and ammunition ankara began sending the hardware after a visit to turkey last week by a high ranking azerbaijani official turkey has however ruled out for the second time in one week that it would intervene militarily in azerbaijan wednesday inonu told reporters ankara would not allow azerbaijan to suffer defeat at the hands of the armenians we feel ourselves bound to help azerbaijan but i am not in a position right now to tell you what form that help may take in the future he said he said turkish aid to azerbaijan was continuing and the whole world knows about it prime minister suleyman demirel reiterated that turkey would not get militarily involved in the conflict foreign policy decisions could not be based on street level excitement he said there was no immediate reaction in ankara to regional reports based on armenian sources in yerevan saying turkish pilots and other officers were captured when they were shot down flying azerbaijani warplanes and helicopters the newspaper cumhuriyet said turkish troops were digging in along the border with armenia but military sources denied reports based on claims by local people that gunfire was heard along the border no military action has occurred the sources said the latest upsurge in fighting between the armenians and azerbaijanis flared early this month when armenian forces seized the town of kelbajar and later positioned themselves outside fizuli near the iranian border david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org how do we explain turkish troops on s d p a center for regional studies the armenian border when we can t p o box even explain cambridge ma turkish mp march
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public service translation no subject re netteki butun vatanseverlere duyuru in article apr freenet carleton ca aa freenet carleton ca suat kiniklioglu a k a kubilay kultigin continues kk butun netteki arkadaslara duyuru kk kk siyasi platformun hangi tarafinda olursaniz olun kk kk bugunlerde bu nette olsun talk politics mideast ve talk politics kk soviet te olsun olagan dan fazla ve etkin ermeni ve yunan kk postingleri yazilmaktadir bu yazilarin cogu guncel karabag kk kibris ve bosna konularinda yogunlasmaktadir buradan hareketle kk hepimizin biraz daha aktif olmasi ve usenmeyip cevap yazmasi kk oldukca faydali olacaktir kk kk evet herkesin isi gucu var akademik yilin yogun bir donemi kk fakat meydani bos birakmamanin ve ulkemizin cikarlarini ideolojik kk platformda gozetmenin de sorumlulugu var kk kk yarinlarin cagdas ve guclu turkiyesi ni hep beraber kurmak umuduyla kk kk saygilar kk kubilay kultigin kk vatan sevgisi ruhlari kirden kurtaran en kuvvetli ruzgardir in translation as a public service subject an announcement to all patriots on the net an annoncement to all friends on the net regardless of wherever you stand on the political spectrum in recent days armenian and greek postings of than the usual in number and effectiveness are being written both on this net and the talk politics mideast and talk politics soviet most of these writings concentrate on the subjects of karabagh cyprus and bosnia due to this fact it is quite useful for us all be more active and not feel reluctant to respond yes everybody has his her occupation it is a busy period in the academic year however we must have a responsibilty not to leave the forum empty and watch the interests of our country on the ideological level in the hope of building together a modern and powerful turkey of tomorrrow regards kubilay kultigin the love of the fatherland is the strongest of all winds cleansing filth off souls david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org how do we explain turkish troops on s d p a center for regional studies the armenian border when we can t p o box even explain cambridge ma turkish mp march
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re conventional proposales israel palestinians in article bca dc news service uci edu tclock orion oac uci edu tim clock writes the latest israeli proposal first proposed in february of contains the following assumptions concerning the nature of any interim status refering to the wb and gaza the palestinians implemented by negotiations it states that israel will remain the existing source of authority until final status is agreed upon israel will negiotiate the delegation of power to the organs of the interim self government arrangements isga the isga will apply to the palestinian inhabitants of the territories under israeli military administration the arrangements will not have a territorial application nor will they apply to the israeli population of the territories or to the palestinian inhabitants of jerusalem residual powers not delegated under the isga will be reserved by israel israelis will continue to live and settle in the territoriesd israel alone will have responsibility for security in all its aspects external internal and for the maintenance of public order the organs of the isga will be of an administrative functional nature the exercise of powers under the isga will be subject to cooperation and coordination with israel israel will negotiate delegation of powers and responsibilities in the areas of administration justice personnel agriculture education business tourism labor and social welfare local police local transportation and communications municipal affairs and religious affairs the palestinian counterproposal of march the establishment of a palestinian interim self governing authority pisga whose authority is vested by the palestinian people its pisga powers cannot be delegated by israel in the interim phase the israeli military government and civil adminis tration will be abolished and the pisga will asume the powers previous ly enjoyed by israel there will be no limitations on its pisga powers and responsibilities except those which derive from its character as an interim arrangement by the time pisga is inaugurated the israeli armed forces will have completed their withdrawal to agreed points along the borders of the occupied palestinian territory opt the opt includes jerusalem the jurisdiction of the pisga shall extend to all of the opt including its land water and air space the pisga shall have legislative powers to enact amend and abrogate laws it will wield executive power withput foreign control it shall determine the nature of its cooperation with any state or international body and shall be empowered to conclude binding coopera tive agreements free of any control by israel the pisga shall administer justice throughout the opt and will have sole and exclusive jruisdiction it will have a strong police force responsible for security and public order in the opt it can request the assistance of a un peacekeeping force disputes with israel over self governing arrangements will be settled by a committee composed of representatives of the five permanent members of the un security council the secretary general of the un the pisga jordan egypt syria and israel but perhaps the bargaining attitude behind these very different visions of the interim stage is wrong for two reasons the present palestinian and israeli leadership are as moderate as is likely to exist for many years so the present opportunity may be the last for a significant period since these negotiations are not designed to or even attempting to resolve the conflict attention to issues dealing with a desired final status are mis placed and potentially destructive given this how should proposals from either side be altered to temper their maximalist approaches as stated above how can israeli worries and desire for some interim control be addressed while providing for a very real interim palestinian self governing entity tim april response by al moore l lmsc is lmsc lockheed com basically the problem is that israel may remain or leave the occupied territories it cannot do both it cannot do neither so far israe continues to propose that they remain the palestinians propose that they leave why should either change their view it is worth pointing out that the only area of compromise accomodating both views seems to require a reduction in the israeli presence israel proposes no such reduction and in fact may be said to not be negotiating tim there seem to be two perceptions that have to be addressed the first is that of israel where there is little trust for arab groups so there is little support for israel giving up tangible assets in exchange for pieces of paper expectations hopes etc the second is that of the arab world palestinians where there is the demand that these tangible concessions be made by israel without it receiving anything tangible back given this the gap between the two stances seems to be the need by israel of receiving some tangible returns for its expected concessions by tangible is meant something that provides israel with comparable protection from the land it is to give up in some way ensures that the arab states and palestine will be accountable and held actively not just diplomatically responsible for the upholding of all actions on its territory by citizens or visitors in essence i do not believe that israel objections to palestinian statehood would be anywhere near as strong as they are now if israel was assured that any new palestinian state would be committed to co existing with israel and held responsible for all attacks on israel from its territory aside from some of the rather slanted proposals above how could such guarantees be instilled for example how could such guarantees controls be added to the palestinian pisga proposals israel is hanging on largely because it is scared stiff that the minute it lets go gives lands back to arab states no more buffer zone gives full autonomy to palestinians any and or all of the arab parties could and would if not controlled somehow easily return to the traditional anti israel position the question then is how to really ensure that that will not happen tim
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re water on the brain was re israeli expansion lust in article apr nysernet org astein nysernet org alan stein writes i guess hasan finally revealed the source of his claim that israel diverted water from lebanon his imagination alan h stein astein israel nysernet org mr water head i never said that israel diverted lebanese rivers in fact i said that israel went into southern lebanon to make sure that no water is being used on the lebanese side so that all water would run into jordan river where there israel will use it head hasan
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re go hezbollah in article apr ncsu edu hernlem chess ncsu edu brad hernlem writes lebanese resistance forces detonated a bomb under an israeli occupation patrol in lebanese territory two days ago three soldiers were killed and two wounded in retaliation israeli and israeli backed forces wounded civilians by bombarding several lebanese villages ironically the israeli government justifies its occupation in lebanon by claiming that it is necessary to prevent such bombardments of israeli villages congratulations to the brave men of the lebanese resistance with every israeli son that you place in the grave you are underlining the moral bankruptcy of israel s occupation and drawing attention to the israeli government s policy of reckless disregard for civilian life brad hernlem hernlem chess ncsu edu i m sure the federal bureau of investigation fbi gov on the internet is going to love reading your incitement to murder josh backon vms huji ac il
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clinton s views on jerusalem i recently read that during bill clinton s campaign he stated that if elected he would immediately recognize jerusalem as israel s capital according to the article mr clinton reaffirmed this after winning the presidency however during recent talks with president mubarak secretary of state christopher stated that the status of jerusalem will be a final matter of discussion between the parties now i don t want to start a big discussion over the status of jerusalem all i want to know is if anyone can authenticate mr clinton s statements with dates places etc thank you ben
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news briefs from kh from kayhan havai o dr namaki deputy minister of health stated that infant mortality under one year old in iran went down from per thousand before the revolution to per thousand at the end of last month o dr namaki also stated that before the revolution only f children received vaccinations to protect them from various deseases but this figure reached at the end of o dr malekzadeh the minister of health mentioned that the population growth rate in iran at the end of went below o during the visit of mahathir mohammad the prime minister of malaysia to iran agreements for cooperation in the areas of industry trade education and tourism were signed according to one agreement iran will be in charge of building malaysia s natural gas network farzin mokhtarian
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re turkey cyprus bosnia serbia greece armenia azeris from article qvgu inn np lynx unm edu by osinski chtm eece unm edu marek osinski well it did not take long to see how consequent some greeks are in requesting that thessaloniki are not called solun by bulgarian netters so napoleon why do you write about konstantinople and not istanbul marek osinski thessaloniki is called thessaloniki by its inhabitants for the last years the city was never called solun by its inhabitants instabul was called konstantinoupolis from ad until about the s that s about years there many people alive today who were born in a city called konstantinoupolis how many people do you know that were born in a city called solun napoleon
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re why does us consider yigal arens to be a dangerous to humanity anwar cs cmu edu anwar mohammed writes in article bimacs bitnet ehrlich bimacs bitnet gideon ehrlich writes the readers of this forum seemed to be more interested in the contents of those files so it will be nice if yigal will tell us why do american authorities consider yigal arens to be dangerous adl authorities seem to view a lot of people as dangerous including the millions of americans of arab ancestry perhaps you can answer the question as to why the adl maintained files and spied on adc members in california and elsewhere friendly rivalry perhaps come on most if not all arabs are sympathetic to the palestinian war against israel that is why the adl monitors arab organizations that is the same reason the us monitored communist organizations and soviet nationals only a few years ago perhaps yigal is a greenpeace member or the naacp or a reporter or a member of any of the dozens of other political organizations ethnic minorities occupations that the adl spied on all of these groups have in the past associated with or been a part of anti israel activity or propoganda the adl is simply monitoring them so that if anything comes up they won t be caught by surprise why does the adl have an interest in that person paranoia no that is why world trade center bombings don t happen in israel aside from the fact that there is no world trade center and why people like zein isa palestinian whose american group planned to bow up the israeli embassy and kill many jews are caught as mordechai levy of the jdl said paranoid jews live longer if one does trust either the us government or the adl what an additional information should he send them the names of half the posters on this forum unless they already have them they probably do gideon ehrlich anwar ed
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re was go hezbollah in article apr ncsu edu hernlem chess ncsu edu brad hernlem writes in article apr unocal com stssdxb st unocal com dorin baru writes brad hernlem writes well you should have noted that i was cheering an attack on an israeli patrol inside lebanese territory while i was condemning the retaliatory shelling of lebanese villages by israeli and israeli backed forces my team you see was playing fair while the opposing team was rearranging the faces of the spectators in my team s viewing stands so to speak i think that you should try to find more sources of news about what goes on in lebanon and try to see through the propaganda there are no a priori black and white hats but one sure wonders how the idf can bombard villages in retaliation to pin point attacks on its soldiers in lebanon and then call the lebanese terrorists if the attack was justified or not is at least debatable but this is not the issue the issue is that you were cheering death dorin dorin of all the criticism of my post expressed on t p m this one i accept i regret that aspect of my post it is my hope that the occupation will end and the accompanying loss of life but i believe that stiff resistance can help to achieve that end despite what some have said on t p m i think that there is a point when losses are unacceptable the strategy drove u s troops out of lebanon at least brad hernlem hernlem chess ncsu edu hi brad i have two comments regarding your hope that the occupation will end belive that stiff resistance etc how about an untried approach i e peace and cooperation i can t help but wonder what would happen if all violence against israelis stopped hopefully violence against arabs would stop at the same time if a state of non violence could be maintained perhaps a state of cooperation could be achieved i e greater economic opportunities for both peoples living in the territories of course given the current leadership of israel your way may work also but if that leadership changes e g to someone with ariel sharon s mentality then i would predict a considerable loss of life i e no winners secondly regarding your comment about the u s troops responding to stiff resistance the analogy is not quite valid the u s troops could get out of the neighborhood altogether the israelis could not just my worth no offense intended respectfully ben
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re unconventional peace proposal in article igc apc org cpr igc apc org center for policy research writes from center for policy research cpr subject unconventional peace proposal a unconventional proposal for peace in the middle east by elias davidsson a fund should be established which would disburse grants for each child born to a couple where one partner is israeli jew and the other palestinian arab to be entitled for a grant a couple will have to prove that one of the partners possesses or is entitled to israeli citizenship under the law of return and the other partner although born in areas under current isreali control is not entitled to such citizenship under the law of return for the first child the grant will amount to for the second the third child for each child for each subsequent child the grant will amount to for each child i would be thankful for critical comments to the above proposal as well for any dissemination of this proposal for meaningful discussion and enrichment elias davidsson post box reykjavik iceland maybe i m a bit old fashioned but have you heard about something called love it used to play some role in people s considerations for getting married of course i know some people who married fictitiously in order to get a green card but making a common child for the power of aa is limited your proposal is indeed unconventional oded maler lgi imag bat d b p x grenoble france phone fax e mail maler imag fr
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re news you may have missed apr why do you insist on reposting the entire original post don t waste bandwidth please you know how picky us non jews can be ha ha
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lezgians astir in azerbaijan and daghestan lezghis astir by nejla sammakia associated press writer gussar azerbaijan ap the lezghis of azerbaijan and russia have begun clamoring for their own state threatening turmoil in a tranquil corner of the caucasus the region has escaped the ethnic warfare of neighboring nagorno karabakh abkhazia and ossetia but lezhgis could become the next minority in the former soviet union to fight for independence lezghis who are muslim descendents of nomadic shepherds are angry about the conscription of their young men to fight in azerbaijan s year old undeclared war with armenia they also want to unite the lezghi regions of azerbaijan and russia which were effectively one until the breakup of the soviet union created national borders that had been only lines on a map a rally of more than lezghis in march to protest conscription and demand a separate lezghistan alarmed the azerbaijani government officials in baku the capital deny rumors that police shot six demonstrators to death but the government announced strict security measures and began cooperating with russian authorities to control the movement of lezhgis living across the border in the dagestan region of russia visitors to gussar the center of lezhgi life found the town quiet soon after the protest children played outdoors in the crisp mountain air at the sunday bazaar men in heavy coats and dark fur hats gathered to discuss grievances ranging from high customs duties at the russian border to a war they say is not theirs i have been drafted but i won t go said shamil kadimov gold teeth glinting in the sun why must i fight a war for the azerbaijanis i have nothing to do with armenia more than people have died in the war which centers on the disputed territory of nagorno karabakh about miles to the southeast malik kerimov an official in the mayor s office said only of locals drafted in had served the police don t force people to go he said they are afraid of an uprising that could be backed by lezghis in dagestan all the men agreed that police had not fired at the demonstrators but disagreed on how the protest came about some said it occurred spontaneously when rumors spread that azerbaijan was about to draft men from the gussar region where lezghis live others said the rally was ordered by gen muhieddin kahramanov leader of the lezhgi underground separatist movement sadval based in dagestan we organized the demonstration when families came to us distraught about draft orders said kerim babayev a mathematics teacher who belongs to sadval we hope to reunite peacefully by approaching everyone the azerbaijanis the russians in the early th century the lezhgis formed two khanates or sovereignties in what are now azerbaijan and dagestan they roamed freely with their sheep over the green hills and mountains between the two khanates by the lezghi areas were joined to czarist russia after they came under soviet rule with the disintegration of the soviet union the lezghis were faced for the first time with strict borders about half remained in dagestan and half in newly independent azerbaijan we have to pay customs on all this on cars on wine complained mais talibov a small trader his goods laid out on the ground at the bazaar included brandy stomach medication and plastic shoes from dagestan we want our own country he said we want to be able to move about easily but baku won t listen to us physically it is hard for outsiders to distinguish lezhgis from other azerbaijanis in many villages they live side by side working at the same jobs and intermarrying to some degree but the lezhgis have a distinctive language a mixture of arabic turkish and persian with strong guttural vowels azerbaijan officially supports the cultural preservation of its largest ethnic minorities the lezghis have weekly newspapers and some elementary school classes in their language autonomy is a different question if the lezghis succeeded in separating from azerbaijan they would set a precedent for other minorities such as the talish in the south the tats in the nearby mountains and the avars of eastern azerbaijan david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org how do we explain turkish troops on s d p a center for regional studies the armenian border when we can t p o box even explain cambridge ma turkish mp march
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re turkey cyprus bosnia serbia greece armenia azeris in article apr news uiowa edu mau herky cs uiowa edu mau napoleon writes compromise on what the invasion of cyprus the involment of turkey in greek politics the refusal of turkey to accept miles of territorial waters as stated by international law the properties of the greeks of konstantinople the ownership of the islands in the greek lake sorry aegean well it did not take long to see how consequent some greeks are in requesting that thessaloniki are not called solun by bulgarian netters so napoleon why do you write about konstantinople and not istanbul marek osinski
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re news you may have missed apr in article apr porthos cc bellcore com bf pyuxe cc bellcore com feigenbaum benjamin writes in article qu op genesis mcs com arf genesis mcs com jack schmidling writes news you may have missed apr not because you were too busy but because israelists in the us media spiked it those intrepid israeli soldiers israeli soldiers have sexually taunted arab women in the occupied gaza strip during the three week long closure that has sealed palestinians off from the jewish state palestinian sources said on sunday the incidents occurred in the town of khan younis and involved soldiers of the golani brigade who have been at the centre of house to house raids for palestinian activists during the closure which was imposed on the strip and occupied west bank if you are as revolted at this as i am drop israel s best friend email and let him know what you think compuserve com via compuserve clintonpz aol com via america online clinton hq campaign org via mci mail tell em arf sent ya if you are tired of learning about american foreign policy from what is effectively israeli controlled media i highly recommend checking out the washington report a free sample copy is available by calling the american education trust at tell em arf sent you js i took your advice and ordered a copy of the washinton report i heartily recommend it to all pro israel types for the following reasons it is an excellent absorber of excrement i use it to line the bottom of my parakeet s cage a negative side effect is that my bird now has a somewhat warped view of the mideast it makes a great april fool s joke i e give it to someone who knows nothing about the middle east and then say april fools clearly if a chutzpa reacts this way it must be worth reading by more objective types you are so wrapped up in your hate that you can t even take the time to edit out my long posting thanks for the extra milege by reposting it
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ten questions about israel from center for policy research cpr subject ten questions about israel ten questions to israelis i would be thankful if any of you who live in israel could help to provide accurate answers to the following specific questions these are indeed provocative questions but they are asked time and again by people around me is it true that the israeli authorities don t recognize israeli nationality and that id cards which israeli citizens must carry at all times identify people as jews or arabs not as israelis is it true that the state of israel has no fixed borders and that israeli governments from until today have refused to state where the ultimate borders of the state of israel should be is it true that israeli stocks nuclear weapons if so could you provide any evidence is it true that in israeli prisons there are a number of individuals which were tried in secret and for which their identities the date of their trial and their imprisonment are state secrets is it true that jews who reside in the occupied territories are subject to different laws than non jews is it true that jews who left palestine in the war to avoid the war were automatically allowed to return while their christian neighbors who did the same were not allowed to return is it true that israel s prime minister y rabin signed an order for ethnical cleansing in as is done today in bosnia herzegovina is it true that israeli arab citizens are not admitted as members in kibbutzim is it true that israeli law attempts to discourage marriages between jews and non jews is it true that hotel hilton in tel aviv is built on the site of a muslim cemetery thanks elias davidsson iceland email elias ismennt is
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re the hamas way of death in article apr nntpd lkg dec com alaa peewee unx dec com alaa zeineldine writes tclock orion oac uci edu tim clock writes while you brought up the separate question of israel s unjustified policies and practices i am still unclear about your reaction to the practices and polocies reflected in the article above tim not a separate question mr clock it is deceiving to judge the resistance movement out of the context of the occupation alaa zeineldine when the plo moved into lebanon and became in parts of lebanon an occupying power itself these same practices were common against non palestinean and palestinean alike they are simply standard operating procedures among palestineans and have been for a very long time in fact the greatest bloodbath of palestineans will happen when they get self rule can you possibly deny this when the plo is the occupier who are you now going to blame jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president
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re nazi eugenic theories circulated by cpr unconventional peace first this man promotes the dissolution of the jews through an intermarriage process and then says that it will be just a bunch of fundamentalist jews who will object this clown even called for buying the dissolution of the jewish people does this idiot mean to suggest that any jew who objects to an imibicilic notion like this is fundamentalist or does he simply mean to insult the orthodox by using the word fundamentalist i am not orthodox i am not fundamentalist i would desire a genuine peace in the region more than this pinhead davidsson can ever understand but when he shows his willingness to dismiss an entire culture he proves that the only thing more brain boggling than his stupidity is his willingness to display his stupidity in this newsgroup please take your hatred for the essence of judaism and shove it up your ass remember to pull your head out first
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re armenia says it could shoot down turkish planes in article apr ee rochester edu terziogl ee rochester edu esin terzioglu writes in article apr kpc com henrik quayle kpc com writes in article apr ee rochester edu terziogl ee rochester edu esin terzioglu writes in article apr urartu sdpa org dbd urartu sdpa org david davidian writes armenia says it could shoot down turkish planes ermenistan kasiniyor let me translate for everyone else before the public traslation service gets into it armenia is getting itchy esin henrik let me clearify mr turkish henrik armenia is not getting itchy she is simply letting the world henrik know that she will no longer sit there quiet and let turks get henrik away with their famous tricks armenians do remember of the turkish henrik invasion of the greek island of cypress while the world simply watched esin terzioglu your ignorance is obvious from your posting esin terzioglu cyprus was an independent country with turkish greek inhabitants not a greek island like your ignorant posting claims esin terzioglu the name should be cyprus in english esin terzioglu next time read and learn before you post aside from spelling why is that you turks do not want to admit your past mistakes you know turkish invasion of cyprus was a mistake and too bad that u n did not do anything about it you may ask mistake yes i would say why is that the greeks did not invade cyprus my response to the shooting down of a turkish airplane over the armenian air space was because of the ignorant posting of the person from your country turks and azeris consistantly want to drag armenia into the karabakh conflict with azerbaijan the karabakhi armenians who have lived in their homeland for years cut off from armenia and given to azeris by stalin are the ones directly involved in the conflict they are defending themselves against azeri aggression agression that has no mercy for inocent people that are costantly shelled with mig s and othe russian aircraft at last i hope that the u s insists that turkey stay out of the karabakh crisis so that the repeat of the cyprus invasion will never occur again
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re nazi eugenic theories circulated by cpr unconventional peace in article qvi s b o usenet ins cwru edu bc cleveland freenet edu mark ira kaufman writes first this man promotes the dissolution of the jews through an intermarriage process and then says that it will be just a bunch of fundamentalist jews who will object or does he simply mean to insult the orthodox by using the word fundamentalist it s irritating when someone mis labels us as fundamentalists isn t it this sort of thing may help us understand why some muslims rather resent being put under this label tim
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re xsoviet armenia denies the historical fact of the turkish genocide in article bd b news service uci edu tclock orion oac uci edu tim clock writes i sure hope so because the unspeakable crimes of the armenians must be righted armenian invaders burned and sacked the fatherland of no no no no no no no it is not justifiable to right wrongs of previous years well there is a bit such as the german reparations to the jewish survivors of the holocaust certainly as such an event goes further into the past reparations become less realistic i was convinced that no one could have a more warped sense of the world they were our grandparents who were cold bloodedly exterminated by the armenians between and not yours and you can always participate in the turkish genocide day along with millions of turkish and kurdish people on april in the united states and canada on this occasion we once again reiterate the unquestioned justice of the restitution of turkish and kurdish rights and we demand that the x soviet armenian government admit its responsibility for the turkish and kurdish genocide render reparations to the muslim people and return the land to its rightful owners the recognition of the genocide has become an issue which cannot be delayed further and it is imperative that artificial obstacles created for political manipulations be removed we believe the time has come to demand from the the united states that it formally recognizes the turkish and kurdish genocide adopts the principles of our demands and refuses to accede to armenian pressures to the contrary as taxpayers of the united states we express our vehement protest to the present u s government policy of continued coddling protection and unqualified assistance towards x soviet armenia we also demand that the united states return to the policies advocated by u s ambassador bristol and other enlightened statesmen who have undertaken a just human and benevolent attitude towards the rights of the muslim people and the just resolution of their case our territorial demands are strictly aimed at x soviet armenia s and in article bac d news service uci edu you have blatantly lied the goltz article was not published in the sunday times magazine on march but in the guardian sunday section well still anxiously awaiting cis commander pulls troops out of karabagh elif kaban a reuter correspondent in agdam reported that after a battle on wednesday azeris were burying scores of people who died when armenians overran the town of khojaly the second biggest azeri settlement in the area the world is turning its back on what s happening here we are dying and you are just watching one mourner shouted at a group of journalists helen womack the independent armenian soldiers massacre hundreds of fleeing families the attackers killed most of the soldiers and volunteers defending the women and children they then turned their guns on the terrified refugees the few survivors later described what happened that s when the real slaughter began said azer hajiev one of the three soldiers to survive the armenians just shot and shot and they came in and started carving up people with their bayonets and knives a year old man who had been shot in the back said we were walking through the brush then they opened up on us and people were falling all around my wife fell then my child thomas goltz sunday times armenian raid leaves azeris dead or fleeing about of khojaly s people were killed in tuesdays attack azerbaijani television showed truckloads of corpses being evacuated from the khocaly area brian killen reuters the washington times atrocity reports horrify azerbaijan azeri officials who returned from the seen to this town about nine miles away brought back three dead children the backs of their heads blown off women and children had been scalped said assad faradzev an aide to karabagh s azeri governor azeri television showed pictures of one truckload of bodies brought to the azeri town of agdam some with their faces apparently scratched with knives or their eyes gouged out brian killen reuters the washington times massacre by armenians being reported the republic of armenia reiterated denials that its militants had killed azeris but dozens of bodies scattered over the area lent credence to azerbaijani reports of a massacre reuters the new york times killings rife in nagorno karabagh moldova journalists in the area reported seeing dozens of corpses including some of the civilians and azerbaijani officials said armenians began shooting at them when they sought to recover the bodies fred hiatt the washington post bodies mark site of karabagh massacre a local truce was enforced to allow the azerbaijanis to collect their dead and any refugees still hiding in the hills and forest all are the bodies of ordinary people dressed in the poor ugly clorhing of workers of the we saw only one policeman and two apparent national volunteers were wearing uniform all the rest were civilians including eight women and three small children two groups apparently families had fallen together the children cradled in the women s arms several of them including one small girl had terrible head injuries only her face was left survivors have told how they saw armenians shooting them point blank as they lay on the ground anatol lieven the times london karabagh survivors flee to mountains geyush gassanov the deputy mayor of khocaly said that armenian troops surrounded the town after pm on tuesday they were accompanied by six or seven light tanks and armoured carriers we thought they would just bombard the village as they had in the past and then retreat but they attacked and our defence force couldn t do anything against their tanks other survivors described how they had been fired on repeatedly on their way through the mountains to safety for two days we crawled most of the way to avoid gunfire sukru aslanov said his daughter was killed in the battle for khodjaly and his brother and son died on the road anatol lieven the times london corpses litter hills in karabagh as we swooped low over the snow covered hills of nagorno karabagh we saw the scattered corpses apparently the refugees had been shot down as they ran suddenly there was a thump our azerbaijani helicopter had been fired on from an armenian anti aircraft post anatol lieven the times london police in western azerbaijan said they had recovered the bodies of azerbaijanis killed as they fled an armenian assault in the disputed enclave of nagorno karabagh and said they were blocked from recovering more bodies the wall street journal exiting troops attacked in nagorno karabagh withdrawal halted armenians blamed more video footage and reports from khocaly paint a grim picture of widespread civilian deaths and mutilation one woman s feet appeared to have been bound paul quinn judge the boston globe serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
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re thousands of armenians were serving the german army and waffen ss in article apr eagle wesleyan edu kmagnacca eagle wesleyan edu writes too bad in fact by nazi armenians in europe had established a vast network of pro german collaborators that extended over two continents before you go calling the kettle black keep in mind that the turkish government was a strong supporter of nazi germany and played a vital role in supplying it with oil until the allies invaded iran complaining about armenian complicity with the nazis does little good when turkey played a much bigger role tell me kmagnacca were you high on arromdian of asala sdpa arf when you wrote that humane behavior and tolerance of turks was a legend even years ago when they accepted tens of thousands of jews from spain who were fleeing from the spanish inquisition again many jewish families escaping from nazi armenians and hitler s nazi germany took refugee in turkiye during the s turkish people have unselfishly given home protection and freedom to the jews over the centuries including to thousands and thousands of them during the second world war get a life or a cup of turkish coffee history of the jews in the islamic countries chapters in parts i and ii jarusalem zalman shazar center for jewish history baron salo w a social and religious history of the jews new york columbia university press vols iii v xviii benardete mair jose hispanic culture and character of the sephardic jews new york sepher hermon press nd corrected edition original publication lewis bernard eds christians and jews in the ottoman empire new york holmes meier vol i the central lands la turquie dan les archives des grand orient de france les loges in jean louis bacque graumont and paul dumont eds economie et societes dans l empire ottoman paris centre national de la reserche scientifique inalcik halil turkish jewish relations in the ottoman empire sevilla sharon moshe turkiye yahudileri tarihsel bakis jerusalem the hebrew university source john dewey the new republic vol nov pp happy the minority jews which has had no christian nation to protect it and one recalls that the jews took up their abode in fanatic turkey when they were expelled from europe especially spain by saintly christians and they have lived here for centuries in at least as much tranquility and liberty as their fellow turkish subjects all being exposed alike to the rapacity of their common rulers to one brought up as most americans have been in the gladstonian and foreign missionary tradition the condition of the jews in turkey is almost a mathematical demonstration that religious differences have had an influence in the tragedy of turkey only as they were combined with aspirations for a political separation which every nation in the world would have treated as treasonable one readily reaches the conclusion that the jews in turkey were fortunate he also stated that they armenians traitorously turned turkish cities over to the russian invader that they boasted of having raised an army of one hundred and fifty thousand men to fight a civil war and that they burned at least a hundred turkish villages and exterminated their population turkey and the holocaust an interview with stanford j shaw history who recently completed two books the jews of the ottoman empire and the turkish republic and turkey and the holocaust turkey s role in rescuing turkish and european jewry from nazi persecution shaw chairs the undergraduate interdepartmental degree program in near eastern studies and has organized the program for the study of ottoman and turkish jewry he is affiliated with the g e von grunebaum center for near eastern studies editor how did you come to write these two books on turkey and european and turkish jews shaw basically i m an ottoman historian but i m also jewish i ve spent twenty five years studying ottoman history and as time went along whenever i found materials on the ottoman jews i collected them but i never did anything with them until a couple of years ago when i suddenly realized that was the th anniversary of the jews being expelled from spain and coming to turkey then the sephardic temple down on wilshire avenue invited me to give a series of three lectures on ottoman jewry these lectures were greatly appreciated and i became motivated to undertake further research to develop a book the jews of the ottoman empire and the turkish republic this book is quite different from the works of most jewish historians who tend to look at the jews in any country more from the viewpoint of the jews and the jewish community and rely mainly on jewish sources i view my subject as an ottoman historian and i approach the jews of the ottoman empire largely from the point of view of ottoman society using largely ottoman sources after i finished this book and sent it to the press i came across additional documents relating to turkish jews during world war ii in the completed book i had said that turkey had done a good deal to rescue the jews during world war ii but i did not actually have many details then i found a batch of documents in the foreign ministry archive relating to actions taken by turkish diplomats to help the jews before and during the holocaust it was too late to add this new information to the book in press so i decided to write a second book i conducted further research mainly in the archives of the foreign ministry in ankara and the turkish embassy and consulate in paris the result was the second book turkey and the holocaust which details how turkey helped rescue jews from the nazis how exactly did they do this the story takes place over a number of years the book presents the material in three parts first of which deals with the period before the holocaust when the nazis came to power in germany in they immediately started dismissing jews and anti nazi germans from universities hospitals scientific institutes and the like turkey at that moment was just beginning the process of reforming its universities and it saw in these jews who were being fired from their positions in germany a good source of new talent to help modernize the turkish universities within three months after the nazis started dismissing these jews turkey arranged to take many of them in they were brought to turkey and were given appointments as professors in the turkish universities as heads of scientific institutes and as medical personnel in hospitals about to major jewish professors came to turkey in the s ernst reuter a german political scientist spent the war years teaching political science in turkey after world war ii he was mayor of berlin during the berlin airlift fritz neimark a major german jewish economist came to turkey and helped establish a modern school of economics in istanbul a man named reichenbach who was rescued from the nazis by turkey and spent the war years in turkey eventually came to ucla where he became a professor of philosophy other german jewish emigres engaged in cultural activities in turkey one such was karl ebert who had been a leading theatrical producer in berlin until he was expelled by the nazis he went to turkey where he organized the turkish national theater and the turkish national opera company in ankara with the help of paul hindemuth so the first section of the book covers this first phase when jews were being persecuted in germany and rescued by turkey oddly enough the german emigres when they were in turkey did not seem to think too badly of germany they regarded themselves more as germans than jews and they did not join in the anti nazi activities of the local turkish jewish community i even found letters from the nazi representatives to turkey praising these german jewish refugees for their work in promoting the idea of german culture even though these people had been persecuted by the nazis and rescued by the turks they shared the nazis feelings of aryan racial superiority over the turks the second part of the book deals with the holocaust which began in when the nazis occupied france in europe at that time and especially in france there were about turkish jews they had migrated to europe for various reasons from about the turn of the century onward most of them had settled in europe during the turkish war for independence after world war i when greece was threatening to overrun turkey the greeks had persecuted the jews throughout the nineteenth century and the jews feared what might happen to them if the greeks took over in turkey many jews fled to france during the s and s many also abandoned their turkish citizenship and became french citizens suddenly the nazis invaded france in and started introducing all sorts of anti jewish laws the turkish jews soon found that it was not worth very much to be a french jew but that it was worth a lot to be a turkish jew how so turkey remained neutral through most of world war ii it retained its embassies and consulates in all the nazi occupied countries until it finally entered the war on the side of the allies at the end of during the war therefore turkey was in a position to defend its citizens against anti jewish measures and the actions that turkish diplomats took form the second chapter of the book turkish diplomats who were stationed in france in particular intervened to protect jews of turkish citizenship from the nazis for those turkish jews who had retained their turkish citizenship there was generally no problem if they were arrested and sent to a concentration camp the turkish diplomats would communicate with the commanders of the camp and other officials and say in effect these people are turkish citizens you can t do this to them and the turkish jews would be released if their businesses were confiscated the turkish diplomats would protest and the businesses would be restored the nazis in general wanted to keep the friendship of turkey they hoped to be able to use turkey as a gateway for an invasion of the middle east and they also wanted to obtain chromium and manganese from turkey in order to keep turkish friendship they usually accepted these interventions on behalf of turkish jews the turkish diplomats sometimes went to the concentration camps to secure the release of turkish jews at times they even boarded trains hauling turkish jews to auschwitz for extermination and succeeded in getting them off the train most of the foreign jews were sent to a concentration camp at a place called drancy in paris and that s where most of the intercession by turkish consuls took place the greater problem came with the turkish jews who had abandoned their turkish citizenship and had become french citizens the consuls couldn t declare that these people were turkish citizens because they were not my book includes photographs of jews lining up in front of the turkish consulate either to get passports to return to turkey or to get a restoration of their turkish citizenship this was a bureaucratic matter so processing the application would take some time in the meantime it was a real emergency because the nazis would arrest jews on the streets for almost nothing the nazis would even arrest them if they had radios or telephones in their apartments because radios and telephones were forbidden to jews to take care of these former turkish jews the turkish diplomats invented a document called gayri muntazem vatandash or irregular fellow citizen the document said in effect this person is a former turkish citizen who has applied for the restoration of his turkish citizenship in the meantime we would appreciate it if you would treat him as if he were a turkish citizen the diplomats wrote the document in turkish and put their seals on it since the nazis could not read turkish on the whole they accepted these papers as certificates of citizenship by this means the turkish diplomats were able to rescue many jews who had relinquished their turkish citizenship actually the nazis were of two minds about the turkish defense of jews on the one hand the nazi foreign ministry which wanted to retain the friendship of turkey was in favor of accepting these interventions on the other hand himmler and eichmann wanted all jews exterminated at times himmler and eichmann were able to prevail and some of the turkish jews were sent off to auschwitz before the turkish consuls could do anything do you have statistics on how many turkish jews were rescued there were about turkish jews in europe before world war ii about of whom were living in france most of the information in this section of the book relates to the situation in france i have published the letters that the turkish consuls sent to the nazi officials and the letters that came back in reply generally the nazis said that if the turkish consul would present documents certifying that arrested individuals are turkish citizens and promise to send them out of france the nazis would release them from the concentration camp the turkish consuls also organized special trains to take turkish jews from nazi occupied territory back to turkey these trains ran regularly in and the nazis gave the turkish jews visas so they could pass out of nazi territory but the trains were often held up by the nazi influenced governments of eastern europe croatia serbia and bulgaria because these governments really didn t want the jews to escape as a result of the turkish consuls efforts about to of the turkish jews in france were saved another were sent off to auschwitz where most of them died the remaining either escaped across the border into spain or fled to the area of southern france occupied by the italians who treated jews much better than the nazis did at the end of however italy fell out of the war and that was the end for those jews as well incidentally the turkish diplomats in nazi occupied greece also worked to rescue jews in that country the second part of your book then deals with turkish diplomats acting to rescue jews of turkish citizenship or turkish origin from nazi persecution yes and there is an aside i might add here in their interventions on behalf of turkish jews the turks cited their treaty with germany which stated that turkish citizens in german territory would be treated the same as german citizens in turkey on that basis the turks maintained that the nazis could not discriminate against turkish citizens who are jews the nazis claimed and the vichy government agreed that they were not discriminating because they were treating all jews equally turkey protested saying you are dividing our citizens according to religion but the turkish constitution requires that all citizens be treated equally regardless of religion therefore you cannot single out turkish jews american consuls in paris by contrast accepted the nazi argument and told american jews who were being persecuted by the nazis that they couldn t do anything about it because the american jews were being treated the same as other jews the third part of the book takes place in turkey which was the principal center during the holocaust for activities aimed at the rescue of eastern european jews the kwish agency an organization established by jews in palestine to help resettle jews to palestine set up an office in istanbul in under the leadership of chaim barlas other jewish organizations in palestine especially the kibbutzes also sent representatives to istanbul to set up headquarters these groups first tried to contact jews in eastern europe to find out what was happening today we know about the holocaust but at that time people didn t know what was going on they didn t imagine the nazis could do the things they were doing and so the first step was to get information and the turkish government let them use the turkish mails to send letters to their relatives and friends in eastern europe the jewish organizations found out what was happening when they received replies later on when the nazis began to intercept such letters the jews received assistance also from the vatican nuncio angelo roncali who served as the vatican representative in istanbul from to and later became pope john xxiii as the vatican representative during the war he used the facilities of the catholic church to supplement what the turkish government was doing to assist jewish agencies in contacting jews in eastern europe with the cooperation of the turkish government these agencies then sent hard currency food clothing and even railroad and steamship tickets to jews in czechoslovakia bulgaria romania and hungary they weren t able to help much in poland because by then the nazis had wiped out almost all the polish jews whenever possible the rescue agencies arranged for the jews to get out of eastern europe either by train through the so called orient express route to istanbul or by boat through the black sea to istanbul turkey was not eager for all these refugees to remain within its borders during the war because it was being blockaded and was suffering terrible shortages of food and clothing the government therefore facilitated the movement of the non turkish jewish refugees from turkey to palestine either by the taurus express railroad through the mountains to syria and palestine or by small boats across the eastern mediterranean from southern turkey to palestine these efforts were bitterly opposed not only by the nazis but also by the british who did not want any more jewish immigration to palestine because they feared it would hurt their relations with the arabs the british constantly pressured the turkish government to stop this traffic and send those jews back in a few cases the turkish government yielding to british pressure did send the boats back for example in one incident the steamship struma with some jewish refugees from romania was sent back by the turkish government as a result of the intervention of the british ambassador when that ship was sunk by a soviet submarine all were lost except one person nevertheless all told the turkish government allowed no fewer than eastern european jews to pass through turkish territory and move on to palestine during the second world war the turkish authorities also provided these refugees with facilities and money and gave them permission to send money and food out of the country many of these jews who passed through turkey may still be living in israel yes and their children but let s return for a moment to the first group the turkish jews who came from europe they did not go on to palestine they stayed in turkey it was the non turkish eastern european jews who passed through turkey en route to palestine their story is very interesting and you have rescued it from obscurity many studies have been made of the holocaust but most of them do not focus on the eastern european or middle eastern jews most of the scholarship has centered on the western european jews of whom million were massacred by the nazis my study deals with a much smaller number of people i have tried to round out the picture and i hope my book will persuade other scholars to undertake further investigations in the history of eastern jews when it comes to numbers the german jews were also relatively small in number most of the millions slain were polish jews the rescue of eastern european jews may not seem so significant compared with the total of million who were murdered but it meant a lot to those who were saved about three fourths of the book consists of documents translations of many documents they are included because the story is not well known not only are people in the west unaware of the courageous actions of the turkish diplomats even the people of turkey did not know the story i felt that they would not fully understand this remarkable achievement unless they could see the documents what languages are used in the documents most of them are in turkish or french some are in hebrew there is a great deal of material in hebrew about the organization of the boats going to palestine the passengers and so on but i did not go into those details extensively i describe mostly what turkey did so most of my documents are in turkish or french a few documents are in english the jewish groups in istanbul did not necessarily cooperate with one another to rescue jews in fact they often fought with one another they took turns trying to get the turkish government to deport rival groups for example some of the kibbutz groups felt that the jewish agency was run by western european jews who were interested only in helping western european jews finally in president roosevelt sent a personal representative ira hirschman who had been an executive of bloomingdale s department store in new york city and hirschman managed to reconcile their differences the documents related to his mission are in english i also obtained many documents from serge klarsfeld a holocaust historian in france who mainly worked on the french jews his father was killed by the nazis he gave me materials he had gathered in the german archives on the turkish jews so i didn t personally consult the german archives i believe that much more can be learned from the german archives and i hope someone someday will make the effort this new book fits in well with your teaching doesn t it right i m giving a course on the history of the jews of the ottoman empire i first gave the course two years ago in addition to research writing and teaching i ve been actively involved in the commemoration of the th anniversary of the coming of the jews to the ottoman empire among other things i helped organize a large international conference on the subject which was held in istanbul in now that your books are finished and the conference has taken place what do you plan to do next i m working on two new books one is a history of the turkish war for independence which took place after world war i during the years to the turks warded off the efforts of the victorious european powers to occupy turkey and end its independence the second book is a study of sultan abdul hamid ii the last major sultan who ruled from to he was an important modernizer in his own way although he also suppressed all sorts of political movements stanford j shaw received a b a in history and an m a in british history he then shifted to near eastern history earning a second m a and a ph d at princeton as a doctoral candidate at princeton he spent two years abroad studying at the school of oriental and african studies university of london the university of cairo the american university at cairo and the university of istanbul he taught at harvard before coming to ucla in his postdoctoral research has been supported by the john simon guggenheim foundation the american research institute in turkey the social science research council the national endowment for the humanities the fulbright program and isop he has received honorary degrees from harvard university and bosporus university bebek istanbul turkey and medals of honor for lifetime contributions to the fields of islamic and turkish studies from the center for research in islamic history art and culture in istanbul and from the american friends of turkey in washington d c in addition to undertaking many professional service activities and public lectures in both the united states and turkey shaw has also produced eight books and one edited volume his history of the ottoman empire and modem turkey vols has been published in many editions six editions or reprints from and translated into turkish and french his book the jews of the ottoman empire and the turkish republic macmillan london and new york university press will be published in turkish translation by the turkish historical society istanbul his turkey and the holocaust turkey s role in rescuing turkish and european jewry from nazi persecution will be published by macmillan publishers london and new york university press in a pamphlet summarizing the book was published in ankara turkey in serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
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given the massacre of the muslim population of karabag by armenians in article apr kpc com henrik quayle kpc com writes let me clearify mr turkish armenia is not getting itchy she is simply letting the world know that she will no longer sit there quiet and let turks get away with their famous tricks armenians do remember of the turkish invasion of the greek island of cypress while the world simply watched and the turkish karabag is next as for cyprus in turkiye stepped into cyprus to preserve the lives of the turkish population there this is nothing but a simple historical fact unfortunately the intervention was too late at least for some of the victims mass graves containing numerous bodies of women and children already showed what fate had been planned for a peaceful minority the problems in cyprus have their origin in decades of oppression of the turkish population by the greek cypriot officials and their violation of the co founder status of the turks set out in the constitution the coup d etat engineered by greece in to execute a final solution to the turkish problem was the savage blow that invoked turkiye s intervention turkiye intervened reluctantly and only as a last resort after exhausting all other avenues consulting with britain and greece as the other two signatories to the treaty to protect the integrity of cyprus there simply was not any expansionist motivation in the turkish action at all this is in dramatic contrast to the greek motivation which was openly expansionist stated as enosis union with greece since the creation of independent cyprus in the turkish population although smaller legally had status as the co founder of the republic with the greek population the greek cypriots with the support of enosis minded greeks in the mainland have consistently ignored that status and portrayed the island as a greek island with a minority population of turks the turks of cyprus are not a minority in a greek republic and they found the only way they could show that was to assert their autonomy in a separate republic turkiye is not satisfied with the status quo she would rather not be involved with the island but given the dismal record of brutal greek oppression of the turkish population in cyprus she simply cannot leave the fate of the island s turks in the hands of the greeks until the turkish side is satisfied with whatever accord the two communities finally reach to guarantee that history will not repeat itself to rob turkish cypriots of their rights liberties and their very lives source cyprus the tale of an island a h rizvi p throughout cyprus following the greek cypriot premeditated onslaught of december the turkish sectors all over cyprus were completely besieged by greeks all telephonic telegraphic and postal communications between these sectors were cut off and the turkish cypriot community s contact with each other and with the outside world was thus prevented turkish quarter of nicosia and suburbs greek cypriot armed elements broke into hundreds of turkish homes and fired at the unarmed occupants with automatic weapons killing at random many turks including women children and elderly persons turks were killed and wounded they also carried away as hostages more than turks including women and children whom they forced to walk bare footed and in night dresses across rough fields and river beds throughout cyprus the greek cypriot administration deprived turkish cypriots including ministers mps and turkish members of the public services of the republic of their right to freedom of movement in his report no s of december to the security council the un secretary general stated in this respect the following restrictions on the free movement of civilians have been one of the major features of the situation in cyprus since the early stages of the disturbances these restrictions have inflicted considerable hardship on the population especially the turkish cypriot community and have kept tension high throughout cyprus supply of petrol was completely denied to the turkish sections makarios addresses un security council on july after being ousted by the greek junta coup in the beginning i wish to express my sincere thanks to all the members of the security council for the great interest they have shown in the critical situation which has been created in cyprus after the coup organized by the military regime in greece and carried out by the greek army officers who were serving in the national guard and were commanding it on the road travelling to the south to the freedom of the north a turkish woman was seriously wounded and her four month old baby was riddled with bullets from an automatic weapon fired by a greek cypriot mobile patrol which had ambushed the car in which the mother and her baby were travelling to the turkish region the baby died in her mother s arms this wanton murder of a four month old baby which shocked foreign observers as much as the turkish community was not committed by irresponsible persons but by members of the greek cypriot security forces according to the mother s statement the greek police patrol had chased their car and deliberately fired upon it serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
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armenian scholars on the extermination of million muslim people in article amazon cs duke edu wiener duke cs duke edu eduard wiener writes why don t you post this in english mike this appears to mean milan it seems that some greek has fucked you is that what turns you on the truth needs to be told over and over again there are armenians who of course witnessed the armenian genocide of million muslim people between but their voices of truth are suppressed today in the hollow din of anti turkish muslim campaign by the asala sdpa arf terrorism and revisionism triangle of the fascist x soviet armenian government well that is what i saw in the library what s your problem with this source k s papazian patriotism perverted baikar press boston pp it seems that terrorism against their own co nationals has been a prominent part of the revolutionary activities of the dashnag leaders of the caucasus organized to fight the turks these chieftains have been more successful in their fight against their armenian opponents in turkey and the caucasus very often defenseless and innocent p the fact remains however that the leaders of the turkish armenian section of the dashnagtzoutune did not carry out their promise of loyalty to the turkish cause when the turks entered the war and a call was sent for armenian volunteers to fight the turks on the caucasian front p thousands of armenians from all over the world flocked to the standards of such famous fighters as antranik kery dro etc the armenian volunteer regiments rendered valuable service to the russian army in the years of source adventures in the near east by a rawlinson jonathan cape bedford square london first published pages memoirs of a british officer who witnessed the armenian genocide of million muslim people p second paragraph i had received further very definite information of horrors that had been committed by the armenian soldiery in kars plain and as i had been able to judge of their want of discipline by their treatment of my own detached parties i had wired to tiflis from zivin that in the interests of humanity the armenians should not be left in independent command of the moslem population as their troops being without discipline and not under effective control atrocities were constantly being committed for which we should with justice eventually be held to be morally responsible p third paragraph armenian troops who having pillaged and destroyed all the moslem villages in the plain caravans of refugees were in the meanwhile constantly arriving from the plain from which the whole moslem population was fleeing with as much of their personal property as they could transport seeking to obtain security and protection p first paragraph in those moslem villages in the plain below which had been searched for arms by the armenians everything had been taken under the cloak of such search and not only had many moslems been killed but horrible tortures had been inflicted in the endeavour to obtain information as to where valuables had been hidden of which the armenians were aware of the existence although they had been unable to find them p first paragraph shortly afterwards the head of the miserable column appeared there were in all about persons mostly old men and women and children with a few ox carts ponies and donkeys carrying all their worldly possessions except a few sheep that they were driving before them their leader interviewed bekir bey and was told to keep farther on into the hills where he would be able to cross the frontier into turkey unmolested by his enemies p first paragraph the armenians from the plain were attacking the kurdish line with artillery with probably a large force in support p first paragraph the arrival of this british brigade was followed by the announcement that kars province had been allotted by the supreme council of the allies to the armenians and that announcement having been made the british troops were then completely withdrawn and armenian occupation commenced hence all the trouble for the armenians at once commenced the wholesale robbery and persecution of the muslem population on the pretext that it was necessary forcibly to deprive them of their arms in the portion of the province which lies in the plains they were able to carry out their purpose and the manner in which this was done will be referred to in due course the following news from turan news agency in baku azerbaijan is brought to you as a service of azerbaijan aydinlig association p o box berkeley ca fax email farid mem odu edu azerbaijan s government appeals to compatriots all over the world refugees from kelbajar perished in their escape lorries situation in the region of kelbajar armenian army continues attack on fizuli press conference of the chief of press service of president of azerbaijan azerbaijanis picket in front of ministry of foreign affairs of russia picket of sadvalers in moscow attack of armenian units stopped statement of ministry of foreign affairs of azerbaijan azerbaijan s government appeals to compatriots all over the world baku april turan today azerbaijan s government appealed to azeris all over the world in connection with escalation of the armenian aggression against the republic it is stressed in appeal that the experience of five years of fighting for independence from imperial chains shows a grim process the war against azerbaijan under the pretence of protecting the human rights of the armenians of ukhari upper garabag has meant the destruction of azeri villages and towns occupation of percent of the territory thousand new refugees in addition to thousand already in place this is all the price of fighting for liberty from russian imperial rule is said in the document azerbaijan s government appeals to all compatriots to make every effort to inform the people of the world about the truth in azerbaijan and to assistance in solving the problems facing the young state it is stressed in the appeal that there is urgent need for medicine food experienced doctors and financial help to settle refugees from kelbajar fizuli and lachin regions and to render medical aid for the sick and the wounded men o refugees from kelbajar perished in their escape lorries baku april turan today during the evacuation from kelbajar region refugees on board two lorries were killed in the fire from the armenian tanks on the only road to leave kelbajar according to press service of azerbaijan president no one survived the tragedy o situation in the region of kelbajar baku april turan attempts to evacuate the rest of citizens encircled on alpine villages of the region of kelbajar went on within the last twenty four hours evacuation helicopters could not land near these villages because of shelling from the armenian side and existence of fog measures are undertaken to air drop food and medicine to the encircled people several hundred people succeed within the last twenty four hours to get out of the region of kelbajar via mountain range refugees are settled in the neighboring regions of azerbaijan and in ganja authorities face serious problem with rendering refugees medical aid and food the number of refugees from kelbajar is over people azerbaijan is not capable of handling a disaster of this magnitude armenian army continues attack on fizuli baku april turan the region of fizuli of azerbaijan situated outside of the territory of daglig nagorno garabag has been subjected to heaviest attacks of armenian army for the fourth day about armored technique and more than soldiers of the enemy are taking part in the attack armenian units broke the defence line of the azeri forces and occupied the ruling height from where the town is shelled from grad installations this morning there is heavy destructions in the town and more than people are dead population of the town is hastily evacuated press conference of the chief of press service of president of azerbaijan baku april turan fifty five thousand refugees from the region of kelbajar were taken out by o clock on april informed the chief of the press service of president of azerbaijan arif aliev today journalists were also informed at the press conference that international red cross is helping to accept and render refugees medical aid there is an urgent need to supply the refugees with tents food and medical aid arif aliev informed that as a result of the ongoing tragedy brought on by the latest aggression of armenia the leadership of azerbaijan intends to appeal to azerbaijanis and all those who treasure human life all over the world for help concerning the reaction of the international community to aggression of armenia aliev said the department of state of the usa has expressed its anxiety to leadership of armenia participants of peace efforts in daglig nagorno garabag under csce rafaelli mareska and chetin strongly blamed the aggression of armenia against azerbaijan leader of press service informed that tomorrow ambassador of azerbaijan in russia hikmet haji zade will conduct a press conference in moscow detailed information on latest events in the region of kelbajar of azerbaijan will be given at the press conference azerbaijanis picket in front of ministry of foreign affairs of russia baku april turan azerbaijanis living in moscow picketed in front of the building of the ministry of foreign affairs of russia picket was conducted as a token of protest against participation of russian units in capture of the region of kelbajar of azerbaijan by armenians about people took part in the picket organized by azerbaijani society dayag picket of sadvalers in moscow baku april members of sadval society picketed before the building of permanent representation of azerbaijan in moscow picketers were demanding the return of lezghins lands as if annexed by azerbaijan ambassador of azerbaijan in moscow hikmet haji zade classified this action as provocation aimed at creating a further inter ethnic conflict in azerbaijan he marked in his talk with the turan correspondent that he does not rule out a connection between the armenian aggression in the region of kelbajar and this anti azerbaijani action of the sadval society in moscow he also marked that people do not mean the lezghian nationality in the whole society of lezghins sadval registered in moscow in demands the creation of a lezghistan state which never existed before on the northern territories of azerbaijan attack of armenian units stopped baku april turan attack of armenian army on the town of fizuli which began in the last twenty four hours is stopped informs the press service of the ministry of defence of azerbaijan in the result of undertaken measures tanks and a number of the attackers were destroyed advance units of the armenian army retreated several kilometers chairman of the parliament isa gambar visited the town of fizuli and met with commanders of the units of the national army and local citizens today statement of ministry of foreign affairs of azerbaijan baku april turan ministry of foreign affairs of azerbaijan issued a statement in connection with aggression of armenia in the region of kelbajar of azerbaijan it is stated in the statement that regular units of the armed forces of armenia captured the town of kelbajar on april attack of armenian units which began on march deep in the territory of azerbaijan still continues armenia has occupied at present sq km of the territory of azerbaijan spreading of armenian aggression far away from ukhari upper garabag proves that the armenian azerbaijani conflicts has entered a specially dangerous phase this is the result of non recognition of armenia as an aggressor by the international community is marked in the document it is stressed in the statement that the units of the th russian army are participating in the armenian attack this casts doubt on the sincerity of russian mediation efforts in finding a peaceful solution to the conflict it is marked in conclusion that aggressive actions of armenia have wrecked the negotiation process under aegis of csce the document contains the appeal to the world community to stop armenian aggression and to use political and economic sanctions against the aggressor serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
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nazi armenian philosophy race above everything and before everything in article apr kpc com henrik quayle kpc com writes buch of crap and you know it nagarno karabagh has always been part of armenia and it was stalin who gave it to the azeris go back and review the history if a dog s prayers were answered bones would rain from the sky did you know that the word karabag itself is a turkish name before before the russians and their zavalli kole armenians drove all the turks muslims out it was a turkish majority town well anyway it is not surprising that armenians also collaborated with the nazis wholly opportunistic the dashnaktzoutun have been variously pro nazi pro russia pro soviet armenia pro arab pro jewish as well as anti jewish anti zionist anti communist and anti soviet whichever was expedient john roy carlson arthur derounian cairo to damascus alfred a knopf new york p as a dear friend put it the tzeghagrons armenian racial patriots was the youth organization of the dashnaktzoutun it was based in boston where asala sdpa arf terrorism triangle is located but had followers in armenian colonies all over the world literally tzeghagron means to make a religion of one s race the architect of the armenian racial patriots was garegin nezhdeh a nazi armenian who became a key leader of collaboration with hitler in world war ii in he had been invited to the united states by the central committee of the dashnaktzoutun to inspire and organize the american armenian youth nezhdeh succeeded in unifying many local armenian youth groups in the tzeghagrons starting with chapters in the initial year the tzeghagrons grew to chapters and became the largest and most powerful nazi armenian organization nezhdeh also provided the tzeghagrons with a philosophy the racial religious beliefs in his racial blood as a deity race above everything and before everything race comes first quoted in john roy carlson real name arthur derounian the armenian displaced persons in armenian affairs winter p footnote now wait there is more the gruesome extent of february s killings of azeris by armenians in the town of hojali is at last emerging in azerbaijan about men women and children dead in the worst outrage of the four year war over nagorny karabakh the figure is drawn from azeri investigators hojali officials and casualty lists published in the baku press diplomats and aid workers say the death toll is in line with their own estimates the february attack on hojali by armenian forces was one of the last moves in their four year campaign to take full control of nagorny karabakh the subject of a new round of negotiations in rome on monday the bloodshed was something between a fighting retreat and a massacre but investigators say that most of the dead were civilians the awful number of people killed was first suppressed by the fearful former communist government in baku later it was blurred by armenian denials and grief stricken azerbaijan s wild and contradictory allegations of up to dead the state prosecuter aydin rasulov the cheif investigator of a man team looking into what azerbaijan calls the hojali disaster said his figure of people dead was a minimum on preliminary findings a similar estimate was given by elman memmedov the mayor of hojali an even higher one was printed in the baku newspaper ordu in may dead people named and more than bodies reported unidentified this figure of nearly dead is quoted as official by leila yunusova the new spokeswoman of the azeri ministry of defence francois zen ruffinen head of delegation of the international red cross in baku said the muslim imam of the nearby city of agdam had reported a figure of bodies received at his mosque from hojali most of them civilians we did not count the bodies but the figure seems reasonable it is no fantasy mr zen ruffinen said we have some idea since we gave the body bags and products to wash the dead mr rasulov endeavours to give an unemotional estimate of the number of dead in the massacre don t get worked up it will take several months to get a final figure the year old lawyer said at his small office mr rasulov knows about these things it took him two years to reach a firm conclusion that people were killed and wounded when soviet troops and tanks crushed a nationalist uprising in baku in january those nationalists the popular front finally came to power three weeks ago and are applying pressure to find out exactly what happened when hojali an azeri town which lies about miles from the border with armenia fell to the armenians officially people have so far been certified as dead being the number of people that could be medically examined by the republic s forensic department this is just a small percentage of the dead said rafiq youssifov the republic s chief forensic scientist they were the only bodies brought to us remember the chaos and the fact that we are muslims and have to wash and bury our dead within hours of these people were women and were children under years old gunshots killed people shrapnel killed and axes or blunt instruments killed exposure in the highland snows killed the last three thirty three people showed signs of deliberate mutilation including ears noses breasts or penises cut off and eyes gouged out according to professor youssifov s report those bodies examined were less than a third of those believed to have been killed mr rasulov said files from mr rasulov s investigative commission are still disorganised lists of azeri militiamen are dead here six policemen there and in handwriting of a mosque attendant the names of corpses brought to be washed in just one day the most heartbreaking account from witnesses interviewed so far comes from towfiq manafov an azeri investigator who took a helicopter flight over the escape route from hojali on february there were too many bodies of dead and wounded on the ground to count properly in hojali people by the stream and the road and visible around nakhchivanik village mr manafov wrote in a statement countersigned by the helicopter pilot people waved up to us for help we saw three dead children and one two year old alive by one dead woman the live one was pulling at her arm for the mother to get up we tried to land but armenians started a barrage against our helicopter and we had to return there has been no consolidation of the lists and figures in circulation because of the political upheavals of the last few months and the fact that nobody knows exactly who was in hojali at the time many inhabitants were displaced from other villages taken over by armenian forces the independent london serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
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re nazi eugenic theories circulated by cpr unconventianal peace in article apr cirrus com chrism cirrus com chris metcalfe writes now we have strong evidence of where the cpr really stands unbelievable and disgusting it only proves that we must never forget a unconventional proposal for peace in the middle east not so unconventional eugenic solutions to the jewish problem have been suggested by northern europeans in the past eugenics a science that deals with the improvement as by control of human mating of hereditory qualities of race or breed webster s ninth collegiate dictionary i would be thankful for critical comments to the above proposal as well for any dissemination of this proposal for meaningful discussion and enrichment elias davidsson post box reykjavik iceland critical comment you can take the nazi flag and holocaust photos off of your bedroom wall elias you ll never succeed chris metcalfe chris solid job at discussing the inherent nazism in mr davidsson s post oddly he has posted an address for hate mail which i think we should all utilize and elias wie nur dem koph nicht alle hoffnung schwindet der immerfort an schalem zeuge klebt peace pete
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re ten questions about israel in article igc apc org cpr igc apc org center for policy research writes from center for policy research cpr subject ten questions about israel ten questions to israelis i would be thankful if any of you who live in israel could help to provide accurate answers to the following specific questions these are indeed provocative questions but they are asked time and again by people around me is it true that the israeli authorities don t recognize israeli nationality and that id cards which israeli citizens must carry at all times identify people as jews or arabs not as israelis that s true israeli id cards do not identify people as israelies smart huh is it true that israeli stocks nuclear weapons if so could you provide any evidence yes there s one warhead in my parent s backyard in beer sheva that s only some miles from dimona you know evidence i saw it is it true that in israeli prisons there are a number of individuals which were tried in secret and for which their identities the date of their trial and their imprisonment are state secrets yes but unfortunately i can t give you more details that s secret you see thanks elias davidsson iceland email elias ismennt is you re welcome now let me ask you a few questions if you don t mind is it true that the center for policy research is a one man enterprise is it true that your questions are not being asked bona fide is it true that your statement above these are indeed provocative questions but they are asked time and again by people around me is not true noam
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re why does us consider yigal arens to be a dangerous to humanity in article bimacs bitnet ehrlich bimacs bitnet gideon ehrlich writes the readers of this forum seemed to be more interested in the contents of those files so it will be nice if yigal will tell us why do american authorities consider yigal arens to be dangerous adl authorities seem to view a lot of people as dangerous including the millions of americans of arab ancestry perhaps you can answer the question as to why the adl maintained files and spied on adc members in california and elsewhere friendly rivalry perhaps perhaps yigal is a greenpeace member or the naacp or a reporter or a member of any of the dozens of other political organizations ethnic minorities occupations that the adl spied on why does the adl have an interest in that person paranoia if one does trust either the us government or the adl what an additional information should he send them the names of half the posters on this forum unless they already have them gideon ehrlich anwar
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re ten questions about israel why does the center for policy research pose such unbelievably stupid and loaded questions to this newsgroup what are you a think tank or a fish tank every time i start to believe i have seen the outer boundaries of your stupidity you come up with one step beyond when will it end man can you actually have brain enough to dress and feed yourself each morning
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re armenia says it could shoot down turkish planes in article apr kpc com henrik quayle kpc com writes in article apr ee rochester edu terziogl ee rochester edu esin terzioglu writes my response to the shooting down of a turkish airplane over the armenian air space was because of the ignorant posting of the person from your country turks and azeris consistantly want to drag armenia into the karabakh conflict with azerbaijan the karabakhi armenians who have lived in their homeland for years cut off from armenia and given to azeris by stalin are the ones directly involved in the conflict they are defending themselves against azeri aggression agression that has no mercy for inocent people that are costantly shelled with mig s and othe russian aircraft at last i hope that the u s insists that turkey stay out of the karabakh crisis so that the repeat of the cyprus invasion will never occur again armenia is involved in fighting with azarbaijan it is armenian soldiers from mainland armenia that are shelling towns in azarbaijan you might wish to read more about whether or not it is azeri aggression only in that region it seems to me that the armenians are better organized have more success militarily and shell azeri towns repeatedly i don t wish to get into the cyprus discussion turkey had the right to intervene and it did perhaps the intervention was not supposed to last for so long but the constant refusal of the greek governments both on the island and in greece to deal with reality is also to be blamed for the ongoing standoff in the region lastly why is there not a soc culture armenia i vote yes for it after all it is now free regards deniz
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re turkey cyprus bosnia serbia greece armenia azeris message id apr news uiowa edu mr napoleon responds to mr napoleon well panos mr tamamidis the way you put it it is only the turks who bear the responsibility of the things happening today that is hard to believe for somebody trying to be objective when it comes to conflicts like our countries having you cannot blame one side only there always are bad guys on both sides what were you doing on anatolia after the ww anyway do you think it was your right to be there there were a couple millions of greeks living in asia minor until someone had to protect them if not us who is that so or you were taking advantage of weakness of ottoman empire to grab some land as soon as you got green lights from allied forces you occupied izmir and other cities in western turkey you killed and raped millions people without any reason of course you paid the price mustafa kemal ataturk made you swim in aegean sea but not far enough your aggressions thru turkey at anytime in the past did not get you any reward and shall not get you anywhere i am not saying that conflicts started with that it is only not one side being the aggressive and the ither always suffering it is sad that we both still are not trying to compromise i remember the action of the turkish government by removing the visa requirement for greeks to come to turkey i thought it was a positive attempt to make the relations better compromise on what the invasion of cyprus the involment of turkey in greek politics the refusal of turkey to accept miles of territorial waters as stated by international law the properties of the greeks of konstantinople the ownership of the islands in the greek lake sorry aegean what compromise are you talking about on cyprus that is not greece business to join the island to greece that is up to people in the island to live or not to live together they made their decision and they are living separetely now there is a peace there greeks can t slaughter turks anymore because turkish peacemaking force is there your dream will never come true mile territorialwater are you joking or dreaming we can declare our miles territorial water which can come close to athens how would you like it if you have any guts why don t you shoot at some turkish ships in your dream mile territorial waters we do not have any city called konstantinople we have a city called istanbul all the greeks in istanbul are being treated just any other turks there is no difference among people in turkey you look at your own backyard first before talking about human rights in turkey what are the rights of turks in greece nothing they do not even have basic human rights like right to have property fredom of religion fredom of press fredom of vote elect their community leaders government of greece publicly encourages people to destroy and burn schools religious places houses and farms belong to turkish minority then greek government forces these minorities to go to turkey without anything with them you will dream to see aegean sea as greek lake but it will never happen think about the war between turkey and greece in the river called sakarya flood days filled with blood in the greeks i mentioned who wouldn t talk to me are educated people they have never met me but they know i am bad person because i am from turkey politics is not my business and it is not the business of most of the turks when it comes to individuals why the hatred any person who supports the policies of the turkish goverment directly or indirecly is a bad person it is not your nationality that makes you bad it is your support of the actions of your goverment that make you bad people do not hate you because of who you are but because of what you are you are a supporter of the policies of the turkish goverment and as a such you must pay the price you mean that any person who supports the actions and policies of the government of greece is a good person that is your greek idea to say turks are bad people we know who we are and proud to be turks anywhere in the world that is not greeks business to tell us what kind of people we are you are not at position to judge people because you are not civilized enough to give equal rights to your own minorities millions of minorities are being treated as third class citizen their rights are taken away from them and they have no voices under the government of greece they are almost being treated as slaves even though we are getting into th century therefore do not make me laught at you so that makes me think that there is some kind of brainwashing going on in greece after all why would an educated person treat every person from a nation the same way can you tell me about your history books and things you learn about greek turkish encounters during your schooling take it easy you do not need brainwashing to turn people against the turks just as greeks arats slavs kurds and all other people who had the luck to be under turkish occupation they will talk to you about murders rapes distruction you do not learn about turks from history books you learn about them from people who experienced first hand turkish friendliness the government of greece is actively supporting terrorism against turkey armenian and kurdish terrorists have headquarters in athens they are being trained in special camps in greece they are taught how to kill innocent women and children this not a claim this is a fact known by whole world in conlusion you are in action to murder rape destroy the innocent people i do not take you seriously because you are not at any positions to talk about human rights and dignity your own government the government of greece actively supports atrocities in bosnia serbs s barbarism pleases your government please napoleon think twice before you write anything about turks and turkey you are the worst in human right conditions and treatment of the minorities who wants to be a fried with someone whose government does not respect the human rights supports terrorism in turkey barbaric actions in bosnia treats turkish minorities as third class citizen and take away all of their rights treating them as slaves at the beginning of th century aykut atalay atakan napoleon
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jokes and international relations in article apr freenet carleton ca aa freenet carleton ca suat kiniklioglu a k a kubilay kultigin wrote kk bugunlerde jewish jokes muhabbetlerinden esinlenerek sunu kk yazayim dedim kk kk israel was able to divert the jewish lobby from the greeks kk for example by persuading it that supporting the armenian kk resolution which came before the senate in february kk could help sour turco israeli relations in addition the kk israeli embassy in washington was active in ensuring that the kk resolution failed for instance by assisting turkish jews to kk travel to wahington to underline the affinity between israel kk and turkey kk kk there was no doubt about the debt which turkey felt it owed kk to israel over this matter even four months before the re kk solution came up for consideration as enior member of the kk turkish foreign ministry said his country was very grateful kk to israel the cooperation in his view refelecting the kk maturity of the bilateral relationship the experience over kk the armenian issue has convinced senior figures in turkey kk that the pro israel network in washington can indeed deliver kk the desired results kk kk robins philip turkey and the middle east chathm house kk papers p kk kk papers p kk got to go now not so fast you have a rather warped sense of logic you are telling us that because israel wishes to have good relations with turkey even at the expense of armenians or armenia makes it bad for turks to tell racist jokes against jews thus we can infer if israel had poor relations with turkey it would be alright to post such horrible jokes against jews you impress nobody david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org how do we explain turkish troops on s d p a center for regional studies the armenian border when we can t p o box even explain cambridge ma turkish mp march
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re accounts of anti armenian human right violations in azerbaijan in article apr freenet carleton ca aa freenet carleton ca suat kiniklioglu a k a kubilay kultigin writes kk david yes kk give it a rest will you no kk it is increasingly becoming very annoying barbarism is rather annoying for you now isn t it especially when it comes from from a country azerbaijan that claims turkey as its number one ally protector and mentor david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org how do we explain turkish troops on s d p a center for regional studies the armenian border when we can t p o box even explain cambridge ma turkish mp march
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re armenia says it could shoot down turkish planes in article apr kpc com henrik quayle kpc com writes stuff deleted country turks and azeris consistantly want to drag armenia into the karabakh conflict with azerbaijan gimme a break capital letters or not the above is pure nonsense it seems to me that short sighted armenians are escalating the hostilities while hoping that turkey will stay out stop and think for a moment will you armenia doesn t need anyone to drag her into the conflict it is a part of it the karabakhi armenians who have lived in their homeland for years cut off from armenia and given to azeris by stalin are the ones directly involved in the conflict they are defending themselves against azeri aggression huh you didn t expect azeri s to be friendly to forces fighting with them within their borders at last i hope that the u s insists that turkey stay out of the karabakh crisis so that the repeat of the cyprus invasion will never occur again you re not playing with a full deck are you where would turkey invade are you throwing the cyprus buzzword around with s c g in the header in hopes that the greek netters will jump the gun yes indeed turkey has the military prowess to intervene what she wishes she had however is the diplomatic power to stop the hostilities and bring the parties to the negotiating table that s hard to do when armenians are attacking azeri towns armenian leaders are lacking the statesmanship to recognize the futility of armed conflict and convince their nation that a compromise that leads to stability is much better than a military faits accomplis that s going to cause incessant skirmishes think of or years down the line both of the newly independent countries need to develop economically and neither one is going to wipe the other out these people will be neighbors would it not be better to keep the bad blood between them minimal if you belong to the armenian diaspora keep in mind that what strikes your fancy on the map is costing the local armenians dearly in terms of their blood and future it s easy to be comfortable abroad and propagandize craziness to have your feelings about turks tickled the armenians in armenia and n k will be there with the same people you seem to hate as their neighbors for maybe years more the sooner there s peace in the region the better it is for them and everyone else i d push for compromise if i were you instead of hitting the caps lock and spreading inflammatory half truths cheers bm
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re how many israeli soldiers what are you joking dark so much for q how many occupying israeli soldiers terrorists does it take to kill a year old native child a four two fasten his arms one shoots in the face and one writes up a false report there is a similar idea here in ex ussr about how many militioners it needs to place a new electric lamp the answer is nine one stays on a table and holds the lamp four hold the table and turn it and yet four run around the table in opposite direction not to make the first feel bad when being turned pitily it lacks this kind of dark humour as nick s msg does to my mind the signature should be smth like albert i ii i i i i i i ii
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re armenia says it could shoot down turkish planes in article apr sol ctr columbia edu deniz mandolin ctr columbia edu deniz akkus writes in article apr kpc com henrik quayle kpc com writes in article apr ee rochester edu terziogl ee rochester edu esin terzioglu writes henrik my response to the shooting down of a turkish airplane over the henrik armenian air space was because of the ignorant posting of the henrik person from your country turks and azeris consistantly want to henrik drag armenia into the karabakh conflict with azerbaijan the henrik karabakhi armenians who have lived in their homeland for henrik years cut off from armenia and given to azeris by stalin are henrik the ones directly involved in the conflict they are defending henrik themselves against azeri aggression agression that has no mercy henrik for inocent people that are costantly shelled with mig s and henrik othe russian aircraft henrik at last i hope that the u s insists that turkey stay out of the henrik karabakh crisis so that the repeat of the cyprus invasion will henrik never occur again da armenia is involved in fighting with azarbaijan it is armenian da soldiers from mainland armenia that are shelling towns in azarbaijan well this is your opinion turkish azeris can bark all they want since the above is untrue however i am sure you guys would have never brought up armenia s involvement if karabakhi armenians had had heavy losses da you might wish to read more about whether or not it is azeri aggression da only in that region it seems to me that the armenians are better da organized have more success militarily and shell azeri towns da repeatedly read what the new york times that is publishing anti armenian articles nop i have my resources look everyone knows how aggressive turks azeris have been in the past armenians are not gona sit around and watch fire works by azeris taught by turks da it seems to me that the armenians are better organized have more success da militarily and shell azeri towns repeatedly buch of non sence crap and you know it who the hell you think you are talking to azeris are fighting local armenians in nagarno karabakh you tell me who has more mig s freedom fighters in nagarno karabakh or azerbaijan again i will say it for the last time armenia is not involved in this war and you guys want to bring this up in order to cover up the turkish involvment in the karabakh go ahead repeat as much as you want da i don t wish to get into the cyprus discussion turkey had the right to da intervene and it did perhaps the intervention was not supposed to da last for so long but the constant refusal of the greek governments both da on the island and in greece to deal with reality is also to be blamed da for the ongoing standoff in the region not a chance you can not convince me based on your reasons that your government did the right thing to invade cyprus da lastly why is there not a soc culture armenia i vote yes for it da after all it is now free well i am not in the position to agree or disadree with you
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re armenia says it could shoot down turkish planes henrik in article apr kth se hilmi er dsv su se hilmi eren responsed to henrik quayle kpc com who wrote h the armenians in nagarno karabagh are simply defending their rights h to keep their homeland and it is the azeris that are invading their h territorium he homeland first nagarno karabagh was armenians homeland today he fizuli lacin and several villages in azerbadjan he are their homeland can t you see the he the great armenia dream in this greater armenia would stretch from karabakh to the black sea to the mediterranean so if you use the term greater armenia use it with care he with facist methods like he killing raping and bombing villages the last move was the he blast of a truck with kurdish refugees trying to he escape the from lacin a city that was given to the kurds he by the armenians it has always been up to the azeris to end their announced winning of karabakh by removing the armenians when the president of azerbaijan elchibey came to power last year he announced he would be be swimming in lake sevan in armeniaxn by july well he was wrong if elchibey is going to shell the armenians of karabakh from aghdam his people will pay the price if elchibey is going to shell karabakh from fizuli his people will pay the price if elchibey thinks he can get away with bombing armenia from the hills of kelbajar his people will pay the price it also seems other non azeri minorities in azerbaijan have understood they are next in line in this process of forced azerification or deportation just look at the situation with the lezgians about the kurds what kurds according to the azerbaijani government there are no kurds in azerbaijan can t they make up their minds oh i see there are only kurds when the azeris want them to be kurds and anyway this kurd refugee story as have other stories are simple fabrications sourced in baku modified in ankara other examples of this are armenia has no border with iran and the ridiculous story of the intercepting of armenian military conversations as appeared in the new york times supposedly translated by somebody unknown from armenian into azeri turkish submitted by an unnamed special correspondent to the ny times from baku real accurate h however i hope that the armenians will force a turkish airplane h to land for purposes of searching for arms similar to the one h that happened last summer turkey searched an american plane h carrying humanitarian aid bound to armenia h no henrik these turkish planes should be shot down with no questions asked he don t speak about things you don t know american cargo planes he were heading to armenia when the turkish authorities he announced that they were going to search these cargo he planes of these planes returned to it s base in germany he of these planes were searched in turkey the content of he of the other planes not hard to guess is it it was sure not he humanitarian aid your facts in error shipments of all kinds that have transversed turkey have been either searched re routed or confiscated some american planes were searched others were re routed others were untouched rail shipments were held up last fall and last winter from entering armenian from turkey for the purpose of aiding in the economic collapse of armenia wheat was confiscated other shipments were exchanged with crap and dirt then shipped to armenia u s planes don t have to use turkish air bases the u s uses these bases to bomb iraq anyway u s planes can fly over georgia which they have found is easier than to endure unnecessary expressions of turkish chauvinism through searches of cargo which to this day have not revealed anything other than a paranoid turkish military he search turkish planes you don t know what you are talking about he since it s content is announced to be weapons well big mouth ozal said military weapons are being provided to azerbaijan from turkey yet demirel and others say no no wonder you are so confused he turkey s government has announced that it s giving weapons he to azerbadjan since armenia started to attack azerbadjan he it self not the karabag province so why search a plane for weapons he since it s content is announced to be weapons you are correct all turkish planes should be simply shot down nice slow moving air transports david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org how do we explain turkish troops on s d p a center for regional studies the armenian border when we can t p o box even explain cambridge ma turkish mp march
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jews islam dr frankenstien i have found jewish people very imagentative and creative jewish religion was the foundation for christianity and islam in other words judaism has fathered both religions now islam has turned against its father i may say it is ironic that after communizem threat is almost gone religion wars are going to be on the raise i thought the idea of believing on one god was to unite all man kind how come both jews and islam which believe on the same god the god of ebrahim are killing each other is this like dr frankenstien s story how are you going to stop this from happening how are you going to deal with so many muslims nuking them would distroy the whole world would god get mad since you have killed his followers you believe on the same god same heaven and the same hell after all what is the peacefull way of ending this saga man kind needs religion since it sets up the rules and the regulations which keeps the society in a healthy state a religion is mostly a sets of rules which people have experienced and know it works for the society the praying keeps the sole healthy and meditates it god does not care for man kinds pray but man kind hopes that god will help him when he prays religion works mostly on the moral issues and trys to put away the materialistic things in the life but the religious leaders need to make a living through religion so they may corrupt it or turn it to their own way to make their living i e muslims have to pay percent of their income to the mullahs i guess the rabie gets his cut too is in it that religion should be such that everybody on planet earth respects each other be good toward each other helps one another respect the mother nature is in that heaven and hell are created on earth through the acts that we take today is in it that within every man there is good and bad he could choose either one then he will see the outcome of his choice how can we prevent man kind from going crazy over religion how can we stop another religious killing field under poor gods name what are your thoughts do you think man kind would to come its senses before it is too late p s on the side do you think that moses saw the god on mount sina why would god go to top of the mountain he created the earth he could have been anywhere why on top the mountain was it because people thought to see god you have to reach to the skies heavens why god kept coming back to middle east was it because they created god through their imagination is that why jewish people were told by god they were the chosen ones profit mohammad was married to khadijeh she was a jewish she taught him how to trade she probably taught him about judaism quran is mostly copy right of taurah sp old testement do you think god wrote quran makeh was a trade city before islam do you think it was made to be the center of islamic world because mohammad wanted to expand his trade business is that why god has put his house in there i think this religious stuff has gone too far all man kind are going to hurt from it if they do not wise up look at david koresh how that turned out i am afraid in the bigger scale the jews and the muslims will have the same ending religion is needed in the sense to keep people in harmony and keep them doing good things rather than plotting each others distruction there is one earth one life and one god let s all man kind be good toward each other god help us all peace
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re armenia says it could shoot down turkish planes in article apr kpc com henrik quayle kpc com writes in article c qu h if news iastate edu oyalcin iastate edu onur yalcin writes cancellum onur yalcin secondly the island of which the name is more correctly spelled onur yalcin as cyprus has never been greek but rather it has been home to onur yalcin a bi communal society formed of greeks and turks it seems that onur yalcin you know as little about the history and the demography of the onur yalcin island as you know about the essence of turkey s onur yalcin military intervention to it under international agreements bi communal society then why did not greece invade cyprus henrik your ignorance manifests itself in an awkward form of intransigence i m not going to spend time to review with you the recent history of cyprus if you are really interested i can provide you with a number of references on the issue just send me email for that onur yalcin be that as it may an analogy between an act of occupation in onur yalcin history and what is going on today on azerbaijani land can only onur yalcin be drawn with the expansionist policy that armenia is now pursuing buch of crap and you know it nagarno karabagh has always been part of armenia and it was stalin who gave it to the azeris go back and review the history the armenians in nagarno karabagh are simply defending their rights to keep their homeland and it is the azeris that are invading their teritory onur yalcin but i could agree that it is not for us to issue diagnoses to onur yalcin the political conduct of countries and promulgate them in such onur yalcin terminology as itchy bitchy i was not the one that stated it relax you re swinging fists into open air i was agreeing with you assuming that would be one of your points that you did not state you may not be very much used to it to be agreed with that is but take it more easily however i hope that the armenians will force a turkish airplane to land for purposes of searching for arms similar to the one no henrik believe me you don t hope that that happened last summer turkey searched an american plane carrying humanitarian aid bound to armenia was that after or before one french plane changed its route to avoid inspection onur yalcin oyalcin iastate edu un punto in piu
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re turkey cyprus bosnia serbia greece armenia azeris in article apr news uiowa edu mau herky cs uiowa edu mau napoleon writes from article qvgu inn np lynx unm edu by osinski chtm eece unm edu marek osinski well it did not take long to see how consequent some greeks are in requesting that thessaloniki are not called solun by bulgarian netters so napoleon why do you write about konstantinople and not istanbul marek osinski thessaloniki is called thessaloniki by its inhabitants for the last years the city was never called solun by its inhabitants instabul was called konstantinoupolis from ad until about the s that s about years there many people alive today who were born in a city called konstantinoupolis how many people do you know that were born in a city called solun napoleon are you one of those people who were born when istanbul was called konstantinopolis i don t think so if those people use it because they are used to do so then i understand but open any map today except a few that try to be political you will see that the name of the city is printed as istanbul so don t try to give any arguments to using konstantinopolis except to cause some flames to make some political statement tankut atan tankut iastate edu achtung baby
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re ten questions about israel in article igc apc org cpr igc apc org center for policy research writes ten questions about arab countries i would be thankful if any of you who live in arab countries could help to provide accurate answers to the following specific questions these are indeed provocative questions but they are asked time and again by people around me is it true that many arab countries don t recognize israeli nationality that people with israeli stamps on their passports can t enter arabic countries is it true that arabic countries such as jordan and syria have undefined borders and that arab governments from until today have refused to state where the ultimate borders of their states should be is it true that arab countires refused to sign the chemical weapon convention treaty in paris in is it true that in arab prisons there are a number of individuals which were tried in secret and for which their identities the date of their trial and their imprisonment are state secrets a is it true that some arab countries like syria harbor nazi war criminals and refuse to extradite them b is it true that some arab countries like saudi arabia prohibit women from driving cars is it true that jews who reside in the muslim countries are subject to different laws than muslims is it true that arab countries confiscated the property of entire jewish communites forced to flee by anti jewish riots is it true that israel s prime minister y rabin signed a chemical weapons treaty that no arab nation was willing to sign is it true that syrian jews are required to leave a deposit before leaving the country and are no longer allowed to emmigrate despite promises made by hafez assad to george bush is it true that jews in muslim lands are required to pay a special tax for being jews is it true that intercontinental hotel in jerusalem was built on a jewish cemetary with roads being paved over grave sites and gravestones being used in jordanian latrines is it really cheesy and inappropriate to post lists of biased leading questions a is it less appropriate if information implied in mr davidsson s questions is highly misleading adam adam shostack adam das harvard edu if we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors we sure wouldn t waste them on members of congress john perry barlow
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re ten questions about israel in article igc apc org cpr igc apc org center for policy research writes from center for policy research cpr subject ten questions about israel ten questions to israelis i would be thankful if any of you who live in israel could help to provide accurate answers to the following specific questions these are indeed provocative questions but they are asked time and again by people around me is it true that the israeli authorities don t recognize israeli nationality and that id cards which israeli citizens must carry at all times identify people as jews or arabs not as israelis although the hebrew expression le um is used the id card specifically states on the nd page ezrachut yisrealit israeli citizen this is true for all israeli citizens no matter what their ethnicity in the united states most official forms have race caucasian black amerindian etc is it true that the state of israel has no fixed borders and that israeli governments from until today have refused to state where the ultimate borders of the state of israel should be funny i have a number of maps and all of them have fixed borders is it true that israeli stocks nuclear weapons if so could you provide any evidence probably yes so what is it true that in israeli prisons there are a number of individuals which were tried in secret and for which their identities the date of their trial and their imprisonment are state secrets apart from mordechai vanunu who had a trial behind closed doors there was one other espionage case the nutty professor at the nes ziona biological institute who was a k g b mole who was tried in camera i wouldn t exactly call it a state secret the trial was simply tried behind closed doors i hate to disappoint you but the united states has tried a number of espionage cases in camera is it true that jews who reside in the occupied territories are subject to different laws than non jews not jews israeli citizens jordanian law is in effect in the west bank but the knesset passed a law that israeli law would be binding on israeli citizens residing in the west bank these citizens could be jews israeli muslims druze or israeli christians it has nothing to do with religion is it true that jews who left palestine in the war to avoid the war were automatically allowed to return while their christian neighbors who did the same were not allowed to return anyone who was registered jew muslim christian could return you might be confusing this with the census taken in june on the west bank after the six day war in this instance if the arab was not physically present he couldn t reside on the west bank e g if he had been visting jordan is it true that israel s prime minister y rabin signed an order for ethnical cleansing in as is done today in bosnia herzegovina no not even if you drowned him in bourbon scotch or brandy is it true that israeli arab citizens are not admitted as members in kibbutzim not true although a minority there are some israeli arabs living on kibbutzim on the other hand at my age i wouldn t be admitted to a kibbutz nor could the family join me not that i would be so thrilled to do so in the first place the kibbbutz movement places candidates under rigorous membership criteria many israeli jews are not admitted is it true that israeli law attempts to discourage marriages between jews and non jews the religious status quo in israel has marriage and divorce handled by the religious courts the rabbanut handles marriage and divorce for jews the muslim shaaria courts are for muslims the christian denominations have their religious courts and the druze have their own courts the entire religious establishment jewish muslim druze christian wants to keep it that way is it true that hotel hilton in tel aviv is built on the site of a muslim cemetery i believe it s adjacent to a former muslim cemetary from what i heard and i d like to get feedback from muslins on the net sanctity of cemetaries is not held that sancrosanct as it is held by jews the current israeli ministry of trade and industry on agron road in jerusalem is housed in a former hotel that was built by arabs in the s on the site of an arab cemetary josh backon vms huji ac il thanks elias davidsson iceland email elias ismennt is
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re armenia says it could shoot down turkish planes in article mucit apr vein cs rochester edu mucit cs rochester edu bulent murtezaoglu writes in article apr kpc com henrik quayle kpc com writes stuff deleted henrik country turks and azeris consistantly want to drag armenia into the henrik karabakh conflict with azerbaijan bm gimme a break capital letters or not the above is pure nonsense it bm seems to me that short sighted armenians are escalating the hostilities again armenians in karabakh are simply defending themselves what do want them to do lay down their arms and let azeris walk all over them bm while hoping that turkey will stay out stop and think for a moment bm will you armenia doesn t need anyone to drag her into the conflict it bm is a part of it armenians knew from the begining that turks were fully engaged training azeris militarily to fight against karabakhi armenians henrik the karabakhi armenians who have lived in their homeland for henrik years cut off from armenia and given to azeris by stalin are the henrik ones directly involved in the conflict they are defending henrik themselves against azeri aggression bm huh you didn t expect azeri s to be friendly to forces fighting with them bm within their borders well history is sad remember those are relocated azeris into the armenian land of karabakh by the stalin regime henrik at last i hope that the u s insists that turkey stay out of the henrik karabakh crisis so that the repeat of the cyprus invasion will never henrik occur again bm you re not playing with a full deck are you where would turkey invade it is not up to me to speculate but i am sure turkey would have stepped into armenia if she could bm are you throwing the cyprus buzzword around with s c g in the header bm in hopes that the greek netters will jump the gun absolutely not i am merely trying to emphasize that in many cases history repeats itself bm yes indeed turkey has the military prowess to intervene what she wishes bm she had however is the diplomatic power to stop the hostilities and bring bm the parties to the negotiating table that s hard to do when armenians bm are attacking azeri towns so let me understand in plain words what you are saying turkey wants a peaceful end to this conflict not i will believe it when i see it now as far as attacking what do you do when you see a gun pointing to your head do you sit there and watch or defend yoursef fat chance do you remember what azeris did to the armenians in baku all the barberian acts especially against mothers and their children i mean burning people alive bm armenian leaders are lacking the statesmanship to recognize the bm futility of armed conflict and convince their nation that a compromise that bm leads to stability is much better than a military faits accomplis that s bm going to cause incessant skirmishes armenians in karabakh want peace and their own republic they are not asking much they simply want to get back what was taken away from them and given to azeris by stalin bm think of or years down the line both of the newly independent bm countries need to develop economically and neither one is going to wipe bm the other out these people will be neighbors would it not be better bm to keep the bad blood between them minimal don t get me wrong i also want peaceful solution to the conflict but until azeris realize that the armenians in karabakh will defend themselves against aggresion bm if you belong to the armenian diaspora keep in mind that what strikes bm your fancy on the map is costing the local armenians dearly in terms of bm their blood and future again you are taking different turns armenia has no intension to grab any land from azerbaijan the armenians in karabakh are simply defending themselves until a solution is set bm it s easy to be comfortable abroad and propagandize bm craziness to have your feelings about turks tickled the armenians bm in armenia and n k will be there with the same people you seem to hate bm as their neighbors for maybe years more the sooner there s peace in bm the region the better it is for them and everyone else i d push for bm compromise if i were you instead of hitting the caps lock and spreading bm inflammatory half truths it is not up to me to decide the peace initiative i am absolutely for it but in the meantime if you do not take care of yourself you will be wiped out such as the case in the era of of the armenian massacres
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re flame and a jewish home in palestine in article c rxh ljy imag fr maler vercors imag fr oded maler writes in article c hjbc hc bony bony com jake bony bony com jake livni writes typical arabic thinking if we are guilty of something so is everyone else unfortunately for you nabil jewish tribes are not nearly as susceptible to the fratricidal murdering that is still so common among arabs in the middle east there were no killings between the jewish tribes on the way i don t like this comment about typical thinking you could state your interpretation of exodus without it as i read exodus i can see a lot of killing there which is painted by the author of the bible in ideological religious colors the history in the desert can be seen as an ethos of any nomadic people occupying a land that s why i think it is a great book with which descendants arabs turks and mongols can unify as well you somehow missed nabil s comments even though you included it in your followup the number which could have arrived to the holy lands must have been substantially less ude to the harsh desert and the killings between the jewish tribes on the way i am not aware of killings between jewish tribes in the desert the point of typical thinking here is that while arabs still today act in the manner you describe like any nomadic people occupying a land killing and plundering each other with regularity others have somehow progressed over time it is not surprising then that arabs often accuse others infidels of things that they are quite familiar with civil rights violations religious discrimination ethnic cleansing land theft torture and murder it is precisely this mechanism at work that leads people to say that jewish tribes were killing each other in the desert even without support for such a ludicrous suggestion jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president
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re why does us consider yigal arens to be a dangerous to humanity in article c sdck n news cso uiuc edu eshneken ux cso uiuc edu edward a shnekendorf writes come on most if not all arabs are sympathetic to the palestinian war against israel i wouldn t bet on it arab governments generally don t care much about the palestineans and their struggle but find it useful for political purposes back home they are happy to leave the palestineans largely under israeli control because that leaves the job of controlling them to the israelis the israelis don t like this job any more than king hussein of jordan liked it and he managed to kill them off at the rate of thousands per month when they started an intifada in jordan the governments of syria lebanon and egypt all feel similarly however proclaiming public support for the palestinean war against israel deflects criticism from deep problems at home and lends an air of legitimacy to even the most brutal arab tyrants arab people probably aren t much more sympathetic palestineans have shown a willingness to destabilize and plunder in jordan lebanon and kuwait and are viewed with suspicion elsewhere you might still be right in sympathy to the war against israel but i suspect that many arabs far removed from the immediate border with israel e g in kuwait or morroco couldn t care less jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president
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how many israeli soldiers does it take to kill a yr old child jle the great writes jle q how many occupying israeli soldiers terrorists does it jle take to kill a year old native child jle a four jle two fasten his arms one shoots in the face jle and one writes up a false report a couple of months ago jle wrote a terrible c program it would never have passed compilation this is one describes jle the great cut here and save to jle c include stdio h include signal h define loser x define childish x define unhumoristic x define vulgar x define mossad agent x define j l e loser childish unhumoristic vulgar mossad agent static void abort printf even if she wanted jle s mother couldn t abort this program printf n n n n void main signal sigint abort printf this program does not help jewish arab relations n printf hit c to abort n infinite loop jle never comes out of his world while j l e cut here to compile this wonderfool program on a unix machine try cc o jle jle c or make jle then type jle at your prompt i tried it it works great tsiel tsiel ohayon jcpl co jp if you do not receive this e mail please let me employer may not have same know as soon as possible if possible opinions if any two percent of zero is almost nothing
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re ten questions about israel backon vms huji ac il writes in article igc apc org cpr igc apc org center for policy research writes is it true that in israeli prisons there are a number of individuals which were tried in secret and for which their identities the date of their trial and their imprisonment are state secrets apart from mordechai vanunu who had a trial behind closed doors there was one other espionage case the nutty professor at the nes ziona biological institute who was a k g b mole who was tried in camera i wouldn t exactly call it a state secret the trial was simply tried behind closed doors i hate to disappoint you but the united states has tried a number of espionage cases in camera one of those us cases was john pollard ed
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re jews islam dr frankenstien some of your article was cut off on the right margin but i will try and answer from what i can read in article c ssqe dps odin corp sgi com kaveh gate koi corp sgi com kaveh smith writes i have found jewish people very imagentative and creative jewish religion was the foundation for christianity and islam in other words judaism has fathered both religions now islam has turned against its father i may say it is ironic that after communizem threat is almost gone religion wars are going to be on the raise i thought the idea of believing on one god was to unite all man kind how come both jews and islam which believe on the same god the god of ebrahim are killing each other is this like dr frankenstien s story how are you going to stop this from happening how are you going to deal with so many muslims nuking them would distroy the whole world would god get mad since you have killed his followers you believe on the same god same heaven and the same hell after all what is the peacefull way of ending this saga judaism did not father islam we had many of the same prophets but judaism ignores prophets later prophets including jesus christ who christians and muslims believe in and mohammed the idea of believing in one god should unite all peoples however note that christianity and islam reflect the fact that there are people with different views and the rights of non christians and non muslims are stated in each religion man kind needs religion since it sets up the rules and the regulations which keeps the society in a healthy state a religion is mostly a sets of rules which people have experienced and know it works for the society the praying keeps the sole healthy and meditates it god does not care for man kinds pray but man kind hopes that god will help him when he prays religion works mostly on the moral issues and trys to put away the materialistic things in the life but the religious leaders need to make a living through religion so they may corrupt it or turn it to their own way to make their living i e muslims have to pay percent of their income to the mullahs i guess the rabie gets his cut too we are supposed to pay of our income after all necessities are paid please note that this is on a personal basis if you are poor there is no need to pay quite the contrary this money most often goes to the poor in each in country and to the poor muslims around the world also this money is not required in the human sense i e a muslim never knocks at your door to ask for money and nobody makes a list at the mosque to make sure you have paid and we surely don t pass money baskets around during our prayer services is in it that religion should be such that everybody on planet earth respects each other be good toward each other helps one another respect the mother nature is in that heaven and hell are created on earth through the acts that we take today is in it that within every man there is good and bad he could choose either one then he will see the outcome of his choice how can we prevent man kind from going crazy over religion how can we stop another religious killing field under poor gods name what are your thoughts do you think man kind would to come its senses before it is too late p s on the side do you think that moses saw the god on mount sina why would god go to top of the mountain he created the earth he could have been anywhere why on top the mountain was it because people thought to see god you have to reach to the skies heavens why god kept coming back to middle east was it because they created god through their imagination is that why jewish people were told by god they were the chosen ones god s presence is certainly on earth but since god is everywhere god may show signs of existence in other places as well we can not say for sure where god has shown signs of his existence and where he has not profit mohammad was married to khadijeh she was a jewish she taught him how to trade she probably taught him about judaism quran is mostly copy right of taurah sp old testement do you think god wrote quran makeh was a trade city before islam do you think it was made to be the center of islamic world because mohammad wanted to expand his trade business is that why god has put his house in there the qur an is not a copyright of the taurah muslims believe that the taurah the bible and the qur an originally contained much the same message thus the many similiarities however the taurah and the bible have been translated into other languages which has changed their meaning over time a translation also reflects some of the personal views of the translator s the qur an still exists in the same language that it was revealed in arabic therefore we know that mankind has not changed its meaning it is truly what was revealed to mohammed at that time there are many scientific facts which were not discovered by traditional scientific methods until much later such as the development of the baby in the mother s womb i think this religious stuff has gone too far all man kind are going to hurt from it if they do not wise up look at david koresh how that turned out i am afraid in the bigger scale the jews and the muslims will have the same ending only god knows for sure how it will turn out i hope it won t but if that happens it was the will of god religion is needed in the sense to keep people in harmony and keep them doing good things rather than plotting each others distruction there is one earth one life and one god let s all man kind be good toward each other god help us all peace please send this mail to me again so i can read the rest of what you said and yes may god help us all steve
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re armenia says it could shoot down turkish planes in article apr kpc com henrik quayle kpc com writes in article mucit apr vein cs rochester edu mucit cs rochester edu bulent murtezaoglu writes henrik country turks and azeris consistantly want to drag armenia into the henrik karabakh conflict with azerbaijan bm gimme a break capital letters or not the above is pure nonsense it bm seems to me that short sighted armenians are escalating the hostilities henrik again armenians in karabakh are simply defending themselves what do henrik want them to do lay down their arms and let azeris walk all over them news reports i ve seen say otherwise both location and motives wise caps don t change facts bm while hoping that turkey will stay out stop and think for a moment bm will you armenia doesn t need anyone to drag her into the conflict it bm is a part of it henrik armenians knew from the begining that turks were fully engaged henrik training azeris militarily to fight against karabakhi armenians so should i at this point break into caps and start talking about defense etc i don t know how fully engaged turkey is was though henrik the karabakhi armenians who have lived in their homeland for henrik years cut off from armenia and given to azeris by stalin are the henrik ones directly involved in the conflict they are defending henrik themselves against azeri aggression bm huh you didn t expect azeri s to be friendly to forces fighting with them bm within their borders henrik well history is sad remember those are relocated azeris into henrik the armenian land of karabakh by the stalin regime so i hear this justifies bloodshed n years after the fact henrik at last i hope that the u s insists that turkey stay out of the henrik karabakh crisis so that the repeat of the cyprus invasion will never henrik occur again bm you re not playing with a full deck are you where would turkey invade henrik it is not up to me to speculate but i am sure turkey would have stepped henrik into armenia if she could why would turkey do that do you not realize that this is a local clash that turkey never wished to see happen turkey has other plans for region like economic revival co operation etc good stuff in other words i d be happy to bicker with armenians over trade barriers and such on usenet rather than who killed whom in what way which i detest doing and wouldn t do bm are you throwing the cyprus buzzword around with s c g in the header bm in hopes that the greek netters will jump the gun henrik absolutely not i am merely trying to emphasize that in many henrik cases history repeats itself even if one buys into your implicit premise the sane thing to do would be to try not to provoke turkey as was done in if there d been a democratic government instead of a bunch of idiots in athens at the time everybody would have stayed home with their families i have no wish to go into the cyprus quarrel but i suspect what i ve said is not only accurate but also palatable to all parties involved bm yes indeed turkey has the military prowess to intervene what she wishes bm she had however is the diplomatic power to stop the hostilities and bring bm the parties to the negotiating table that s hard to do when armenians bm are attacking azeri towns henrik so let me understand in plain words what you are saying turkey henrik wants a peaceful end to this conflict not so what do you think we want war death and destruction henrik i will believe it when i see it no if you allow yourself to believe it you just might see it henrik now as far as attacking what do you do when you see a gun pointing henrik to your head do you sit there and watch or defend yoursef fat chance this kind of childish rhetoric doesn t help anthing henrik do you remember what azeris did to the armenians in baku all the henrik barberian acts especially against mothers and their children i mean henrik burning people alive now some azeri will come out and give a description of similar stuff perpetrated by armenians one should re hash stuff like this often to keep the hatred alive right bm armenian leaders are lacking the statesmanship to recognize the bm futility of armed conflict and convince their nation that a compromise that bm leads to stability is much better than a military faits accomplis that s bm going to cause incessant skirmishes henrik armenians in karabakh want peace and their own republic they are henrik not asking much they simply want to get back what was taken away henrik from them and given to azeris by stalin well they obviously aren t getting anywhere with their current methods of asking not very peaceful i d say bm think of or years down the line both of the newly independent bm countries need to develop economically and neither one is going to wipe bm the other out these people will be neighbors would it not be better bm to keep the bad blood between them minimal henrik don t get me wrong i also want peaceful solution to the henrik conflict but until azeris realize that the armenians in henrik karabakh will defend themselves against aggresion i don t know if you want a solution or just want to exchange slogans peace isn t what s happening right now furthermore what s happening right now isn t condusive to peace you can spend days and nights raving about how right the armenian position is and i m sure there ll be others who d be happy to talk to you by arguing the other side if entrenched positions lead to war and if people want peace than they should sit down and talk about a compromise armenia isn t strong enough to exercise the we think we re right and we have the bombs so we ll do whatever we want so there style of foreign relations yes you can type stalin in caps and give one sided atrocity stories etc but for peace you need to be willing to talk to the other side you personally can choose not to do that of course this being just usenet the people in power shouldn t be so childish bm if you belong to the armenian diaspora keep in mind that what strikes bm your fancy on the map is costing the local armenians dearly in terms of bm their blood and future henrik again you are taking different turns armenia has no intension henrik to grab any land from azerbaijan the armenians in karabakh henrik are simply defending themselves until a solution is set azeri s would disagree with you on this and the maps i ve seen support what they d be saying it doesn t seem likely that a solution will be reached in this manner bm it s easy to be comfortable abroad and propagandize bm craziness to have your feelings about turks tickled the armenians bm in armenia and n k will be there with the same people you seem to hate bm as their neighbors for maybe years more the sooner there s peace in bm the region the better it is for them and everyone else i d push for bm compromise if i were you instead of hitting the caps lock and spreading bm inflammatory half truths henrik it is not up to me to decide the peace initiative i am absolutely henrik for it it didn t look it when i read your posting it would seem to me that if you can spew mis information about a boogey man you can also talk about how one might avoid the nastiness fair henrik but in the meantime if you do not take care of yourself henrik you will be wiped out such as the case in the era of of henrik the armenian massacres you don t realize i can say the same thing about the turkish massacres yes boys and girls let s always talk about how bad and nasty things were let s do that so we re overwhelmed by anger and let s do that so our kids will also be hateful sounds crazy doesn t it don t do it then bm
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re news briefs from kh in article sehari vincent iastate edu farzin apollo ntt jp farzin mokhtarian writes from kayhan havai o dr namaki deputy minister of health stated that infant mortality under one year old in iran went down from per thousand before the revolution to per thousand at the end of last month dr cheghadr ba namakand they just wait until they are teenagers to kill them o dr namaki also stated that before the revolution only f children received vaccinations to protect them from various deseases but this figure reached at the end of huh o during the visit of mahathir mohammad the prime minister of malaysia to iran agreements for cooperation in the areas of industry trade education and tourism were signed according to one agreement iran will be in charge of building malaysia s natural gas network yup iri also granted a great deal of reconstruction of houses and buildings in war torn areas to malaysia khak too sareshoon one of the only industries we really have is construction and there are all these unemployed youth and they give money to malaysia to do what iranians can and should be doing farzin mokhtarian mash javad
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basil opinions re water on the brain in article apr thunder mcrcim mcgill edu hasan mcrcim mcgill edu writes in article apr nysernet org astein nysernet org alan stein writes i guess hasan finally revealed the source of his claim that israel diverted water from lebanon his imagination alan h stein astein israel nysernet org mr water head i never said that israel diverted lebanese rivers in fact i said that israel went into southern lebanon to make sure that no water is being used on the lebanese side so that all water would run into jordan river where there israel will use it head of course posting some hard evidence or facts is much more difficult you have not bothered to substantiate this in any way basil do you know of any evidence that would support this i can just imagine a news report from ancient times if hasan had been writing it newsflash cairo ap ancient press israel today denied egypt acces to the red sea in a typical display of israelite agressiveness the leader of the israelite slave revolt former prince moses parted the red sea the action is estimated to have caused irreparable damage to the environment egyptian authorities have said that thousands of fisherman have been denied their livelihood by the parted waters pharaoh s brave charioteers were successful in their glorious attempt to cause the waters of the red sea to return to their normal state unfortunately they suffered heavy casualties while doing so hasan shai guday stealth bombers os software engineer thinking machines corp the winged ninjas of the skies cambridge ma
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re turkey cyprus bosnia serbia greece armenia azeris ok my aykut what about the busload of greek turists that was torched and all the the people in the buis died happened oh about years ago in instanbul what about the greeks in the islands of imbros and tenedos they are not allowed to have churches any more instead momama turkey has turned the church into a warehouse i got a picture too what about the pontian greeks of trapezounta and sampsounta what you now call trabzon and sampson they spoke a thousand year alod language are there any left that still speek or were they islamicised before we start another flamefest and before you start quoting argic all over again or was it somebody else please think i know it is a hard thing to do for somebody not equipped but try nevertheless if turks in greece were so badly mistreated how come they elected two m not one but two representatives in the greek government how come they have free absolutely free hospitalization and education do the turks in turkey have so much if they do then you have every right to shout untill then you can also move to greece and enjoy those privileges but i forget for you do study in a foreign university some poor shod is tiling the earth with his own sweat btw is aziz nessin still writing poetry i d like to read some of his new stuff also who was the guy that wrote on the mountains of tayros please respond kindly to the last two questions i am interested in finding more books from these two people yeian kai eytyxeian the opinions expressed above are nobody else s but angelos karageorgiou mine mine miiinne miiinneeee aaaarrgghhhh live long prosper no carrier any and all mail sent to me can and will be used in any manner whatsoever i may repost or publicise parts of messages or whole messages if you disagree please exercise your freedom of speech and don t send me anything
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re was go hezbollah in article bce news service uci edu tclock orion oac uci edu tim clock writes in article apr yuma acns colostate edu bh lance colostate edu writes it is not a terrorist camp as you and the israelis like to view the villages they are small communities with kids playing soccer in the streets women preparing lunch men playing cards etc some young men usually aged between to years are members of the lebanese resistance even the inhabitants of the village do not know who these are they are secretive about it but most people often suspect who they are and what they are up to these young men are supported financially by iran most of the time they sneak arms and ammunitions into the occupied zone where they set up booby traps for israeli patrols every time an israeli soldier is killed or injured by these traps israel retalliates by indiscriminately bombing villages of their own choosing often killing only innocent civilians this a tried and true method utilized by guerilla and terrorists groups to conduct operations in the midst of the local populace thus forcing the opposing state to possible harm innocent civilians in their search or in order to avoid the deaths of civilians abandon the search certainly the people who use the population for cover are also to blaim for dragging the innocent civilians into harm s way are you suggesting that when guerillas use the population for cover israel should totally back down so the easiest way to get away with attacking another is to use an innocent as a shield and hope that the other respects innocent lives tell me tim what are these guerillas doing wrong assuming that they are using civilians for cover are they not killing soldiers in their country if the buffer zone is to prevent attacks on israel is it not working why is it further neccessary for israeli guns to pound lebanese villages why not just kill those who try to infiltrate the buffer zone you see there is more to the shelling of the villages it is called retaliation getting back getting even it doesn t make sense to shell the villages the least it shows is a reckless disregard by the israeli government for the lives of civilians if israel insists that the so called security zone is necessary for the protection of northern israel than it will have to pay the price of its occupation with the blood of its soldiers if israel is interested in peace than it should withdraw from our land what so the whole bit about attacks on israel from neighboring arab states can start all over again while i also hope for this to happen it will only occur when arab states show that they are prepared to take on the responsibility and the duty to stop guerilla attacks on israel from their soil they have to prove it or provide some guaratees there is no way israel is going to accept their word not with their past attitude of tolerance towards anti israel guerillas in residence if israel is not willing to accept the word of others then imho it has no business wasting others time coming to the peace talks i have written before on this very newsgroup that the only real solution will come as a result of a comprehensive peace settlement whereby israel withdraws to its own borders and peace keeping troops are stationed along the border to insure no one on either side of the border is shelled good lord brad no i am not basil i think basil is a very intelligent person and i respect what he writes basil is a person that i would gladly call a friend he is however not me nor am i lebanese as some seem to suspect this is the only realistic solution it is time for israel to realize that the concept of a buffer zone aimed at protecting its northern cities has failed in fact it has caused much more israeli deaths than the occasional shelling of northern israel would have resulted in perhaps you are aware that to most communities of people there is the feeling that it is better that many of us die fighting against those who attack us than for few to die while we silently accept our fate if however you call on israel to see the sense of suffering fewer casualties i suggest you apply the same to palestinian arab and islamic groups tim you are ignoring the fact that the palestinians in lebanon have been disarmed hezbollah remains the only independent militia hezbollah does not attack israel except at a few times such as when the idf burned up sheikh mosavi his wife and young son of course if israel would withdraw from lebanon and stop assassinating people and shelling villages they wouldn t make the lebanese so mad as to do that furthermore with hezbollah subsequently disarmed it would not be possible and now the lebanese government has proven that it is capable of controlling and disarming all militias as they did in all other parts of lebanon basil it has not without the support and active involvement of syria lebanon would not have been able to accomplish all that has occurred once syria leaves who is to say that lebanon will be able to retain control if syria stays thay may be even more dangerous for israel tim when is the last time that you recall any trouble on the syrian border not lately eh israel knows very well that the syrians are able to restrain all who would use territory under their control to attack israel while lebanon would be better off with syria and israel out of its borders the presence of syrian troops in lebanon has meant a sharp decrease in attacks on israeli territory not on israeli troops in lebanon however please note the distinction in the past two years tim your view of this entire matter is far too serenely one sided and selectively naive i disagree basil has always seemed to me to be a cool headed person slow to anger certainly more so than i what is most important is that he is an actual witness to things from the other end of the israeli guns if only the israeli government would remember what it was like when the roles were reversed perhaps they would moderate their retaliation brad hernlem hernlem chess ncsu edu
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re turkey cyprus bosnia serbia greece armenia azeris in article apr news uiowa edu mau herky cs uiowa edu mau napoleon writes from article apr iastate edu by tankut iastate edu sabri t atan well panos mr tamamidis the way you put it it is only the turks who bear the responsibility of the things happening today that is hard to believe for somebody trying to be objective when it comes to conflicts like our countries having you cannot blame one side only there always are bad guys on both sides what were you doing on anatolia after the ww anyway do you think it was your right to be there there were a couple millions of greeks living in asia minor until someone had to protect them if not us who i am not saying that conflicts started with that it is only not one side being the aggressive and the ither always suffering it is sad that we both still are not trying to compromise i remember the action of the turkish government by removing the visa requirement for greeks to come to turkey i thought it was a positive attempt to make the relations better compromise on what the invasion of cyprus the involment of turkey in greek politics the refusal of turkey to accept miles of territorial waters as stated by international law the properties of the greeks of konstantinople the ownership of the islands in the greek lake sorry aegean there are some things on which there can not be a compromise the greeks i mentioned who wouldn t talk to me are educated people they have never met me but they know i am bad person because i am from turkey politics is not my business and it is not the business of most of the turks when it comes to individuals why the hatred any person who supports the policies of the turkish goverment directly or indirecly is a bad person it is not your nationality that makes you bad it is your support of the actions of your goverment that make you bad people do not hate you because of who you are but because of what you are you are a supporter of the policies of the turkish goverment and as a such you must pay the price so that makes me think that there is some kind of brainwashing going on in greece after all why would an educated person treat every person from a nation the same way can you tell me about your history books and things you learn about greek turkish encounters during your schooling take it easy tankut atan tankut iastate edu achtung baby you do not need brainwashing to turn people against the turks just talk to greeks arabs slavs kurds and all other people who had the luck to be under turkish occupation they will talk to you about murders rapes distruction you do not learn about turks from history books you learn about them from people who experienced first hand turkish friendliness napoleon well napoleon it is your kind of people who are preventing peace on the world first of all you didn t answer the question i asked at the end of my posting and then you told me some bullshit throughout your posting which had no positive point about the issue filled with hatred and filled with emotions why am i doing this forget it i don t think you are worth it to discuss the issue tankut atan tankut iastate edu achtung baby
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re clintons views on jerusalem it seems that president clinton can recognize jerusalem as israels capitol while still keeping his diplomatic rear door open by stating that the parties concerned should decide the city s final status even as i endorse clintons vie w of course it is definitely a matter to be decided upon by israel and other participating neighboring contries i see no real conflict in stating both views nor expect any better from politicians david shalhevet dshal vmd cso uiuc edu university of illinois dept anim sci pabl w gregory dr urbana il
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re was go hezbollah in article bradski apr retina bu edu bradski retina bu edu gary bradski writes on apr gmt amehdi src honeywell com hossien amehdi said i was merley pointing out that the other side is also suffering like i said i m not an arab but if i was say a lebanese you bet i would defende my homeland against any invader by any means the syrians iranian agents or just israeli invaders gary bradski i net bradski park bu edu reverberate cognitive and neural systems boston university v v cummington st boston ma y i don t even agree with some of my opinions or die i did say any invader didn t i what do you want from me perhaps a neural net design with all countries involved in lebanon as its nodes you are in cognitive and neural systems if that s the case i would put different weights for each country in my net
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re basil opinions re water on the brain in article qmdtlinnkrc early bird think com shaig think com shai guday writes in article apr thunder mcrcim mcgill edu hasan mcrcim mcgill edu writes in article apr nysernet org astein nysernet org alan stein writes i guess hasan finally revealed the source of his claim that israel diverted water from lebanon his imagination alan h stein astein israel nysernet org mr water head i never said that israel diverted lebanese rivers in fact i said that israel went into southern lebanon to make sure that no water is being used on the lebanese side so that all water would run into jordan river where there israel will use it head of course posting some hard evidence or facts is much more difficult you have not bothered to substantiate this in any way basil do you know of any evidence that would support this i can just imagine a news report from ancient times if hasan had been writing it newsflash cairo ap ancient press israel today denied egypt acces to the red sea in a typical display of israelite agressiveness the leader of the israelite slave revolt former prince moses parted the red sea the action is estimated to have caused irreparable damage to the environment egyptian authorities have said that thousands of fisherman have been denied their livelihood by the parted waters pharaoh s brave charioteers were successful in their glorious attempt to cause the waters of the red sea to return to their normal state unfortunately they suffered heavy casualties while doing so hehehe btw does the litani river not flow west and not south i think that its waters stay entirely within lebanese territory and so what hasan says about the jordan river makes no sense in any case the hasbani river on the other hand flows into the jordan if i am not mistaken brad hernlem hernlem chess ncsu edu
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re news you will miss apr sorry arf you dog that news was suppressed because the israeli national volleyball team repeatedly spiked it let this be a lesson to others not to invoke the wrath of sports nuts brits lead the way in this regard with casualties in the last years anyway yigal would never sue his life is presumably so pristine that its most intimate details could be revealed without harm to anyone might even be good instruction for some people i can think of me i would sue i hate the way sports dominates the media anyway the last adl agents watching me die of boredom before filing their reports i ve damaged their atlanta operation something fierce
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re clintons views on jerusalem in article bb abd dshal vmd cso uiuc edu dshal vmd cso uiuc edu writes it seems that president clinton can recognize jerusalem as israels capitol while still keeping his diplomatic rear door open by stating that the parties concerned should decide the city s final status even as i endorse clintons vie w of course it is definitely a matter to be decided upon by israel and other participating neighboring contries i see no real conflict in stating both views nor expect any better from politicians david shalhevet dshal vmd cso uiuc edu university of illinois dept anim sci pabl w gregory dr urbana il i was trying to avoid a discussion of the whether clintons views should be endorsed or not all i was trying to find out was whether the newspaper article was correct in making these statements about the president by obtaining some information about when and where he made these statements thank you ben
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zionism is racism in re syria s expansion the author writes that the un thought zionism was racism and that they were wrong they were correct the first time zionism is racism and thankfully the mcgill daily the student newspaper at mcgill was proud enough to print an article saying so if you want a copy send me mail steve
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re turkey cyprus bosnia serbia greece armenia azeris in article apr news uiowa edu mau herky cs uiowa edu mau napoleon writes instabul was called konstantinoupolis from ad until about the s that s about years there many people alive today who were born in a city called konstantinoupolis i know it doesn t make sense but since when is napoleon about sense anyway further striking bigoted and racist attitude of certain greeks still exists in our day most greeks insist even today that the year old capital of the ottoman empire should be called not by its rightful name of istanbul but by its half a millennium old moniker cons whatever everyone knows that new york city was once called new amsterdam but dutch people do not persist on calling it that today the name of stalingrad too is long gone replaced by volgagrad china s peking traded its name for beiging long ago ciudad trujillo of the dominican republic is now santa domingo zimbabve s old colonial capital salisburry became harrare these changes have all been accepted officially by everyone in the world but greeks are still determined on calling the turkish istanbul by the name of cons how can one explain this total intransigence what makes greeks so different from other mortals year old questionable democracy why don t they seem to reconcile with the fact for instance that istanbul changed hands years ago in ad and that this predates the discovery of the new world by years the declaration of u s independence in will come years later shouldn t then half a millennium be considered enough time for cons to be called a turkish city where is the logic in the greek reasoning if there is any how long can one sit on the laurels of an ancient civilization ancient greece does not exist any more than any other civilizations that existed on the soil of anatolia these undereducated wieneramus live with an illusion it is the same mentality which allows them to rationalize that cyprus is a greek island no history book shows that it ever was it belonged to the ottoman turks lock stock and barrel for a period of well over years in fact prior to the turks acquisition of it following bloody naval battles with the venetians in ad the island of cyprus belonged invariably to several nations the assyrians the sumerians the phoenicians the egyptians the ottoman turks of course in that order owned it as their territory but it has never been the possession of the government of greece not even for one day in the history of the world moreover cyprus is located miles from the greek mainland but only miles from turkiye s southern coastline saddam hussein claims that kuwait was once iraqi territory and the greek cypriot government and the terrorist greek governments think that cyprus also was once part of the greek hegemony those arromdians involved in this grandiose hallucination should wake up from their sweet daydreams and confront reality again wishful thinking is unproductive only facts count as for selanik those jews who survived these assaults in southeastern europe fled particularly to salonica whose jewish population increased substantially as a result from in to in more than half the total population though even there increased persecution by local greeks led many jews to flee elsewhere in the ottoman empire particularly to the great port of izmir despite all the pressure from ottomans and foreign jews alike the ritual murders and other assaults by christians on jews went on and on greek efforts to decimate the jewish population of salonica culminated in and following greek conquest of salonica during the first balkan war when many of its jews were either killed or terrorized into leaving though greece was obligated by the post world war i treaties to allow jews and other minorities to use their own languages in education and to practice their religions without hindrance a law was issued in which forbad all inhabitants from working on sunday stimulating a new jewish exodus as it was intended to do between and there was a series of anti semitic riots in salonica with the cambel quarter where most of the remaining jews lived being burned to the ground this was followed by regulations requiring the use of greek and prohibiting hebrew and judea spanish in the jewish schools a start was made also on expropriating the land of the principal jewish cemetery in salonica for use by the new university in order to derive the jews out by killing and driving out large numbers of jews the greeks left a substantial greek majority in the city for the first time and starting salonica jewry on the way to its final decimation by the nazis during the occupation of greece starting in salonica and izmir of course were not the only places of refuge for jewish refugees entering the empire during its last century of existence istanbul edirne and other parts of rumelia and anatolia received thousands more nor were jews the only refugees received and helped by the government of the sultan thousands of muslims accompanied them in flight from similar persecutions wherever balkan christian states gained independence or expanded the russian conquest of the crimea and the caucasus starting in the late eighteenth century and particularly during and after the crimean war combined with the same independence movements in southeastern europe that had caused so much suffering and flight among its jews caused thousands of helpless ill and poverty stricken muslim refugees to accompany them into the ever shrinking boundaries of the ottoman empire with the istanbul government struggling mightly but vainly to house and feed them as best it could from to as many as crimean tatars circassians and other muslims from north and east of the black sea had entered anatolia alone as many as more came during the next twenty years while refugees entered in as a result of the ottoman wars with russia and the balkan states with an equal number gaining refuge in the european portions of the empire robert mantran la structure sociale de la communaute juive de salonqiue a la fin du dix neuvieme siecle rh no nehama vii joseph nehama salonica to aiu paris no may aiu archives i c and no january aiu archives i c describing daily battles between jewish and greek children in the streets of salonica benghiat director of ecole moise allatini salonica to aiu paris no december aiu archives i c describing greek attacks on jews boycotts of jewish shops and manufacturers and greek press campaigns leading to blood libel attacks cohen ecole secondaire moise allatini salonica to aiu paris no december aiu archives i c describes a week of terror that followed the greek army occupation of salonica in with the soldiers pillaging the jewish quarters and destroying jewish synagogues accompanied by what he described as an explosion of hatred by local greek population against local jews and muslims mizrahi president of the aiu at salonica reported to the aiu paris no july aiu archives i c that it was not only the irregulars comitadjis that massacred pillaged and burned the army soldiers the chief of police and the high civil officials also took an active part in the horrors moise tovi salonica to aiu paris no august aiu archives i c describes the greek pillage of the jewish quarter during the night of august aiu alliance israelite universelle paris serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
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to be exact million muslims were exterminated by the armenians in article lt p inn ql appserv eng sun com linden positive eng sun com peter van der linden writes so did the turks kill the armenians so did the jews kill the germans you even make armenians laugh an appropriate analogy with the jewish holocaust might be the systematic extermination of the entire muslim population of the independent republic of armenia which consisted of at least percent of the population of that republic the memoirs of an armenian army officer who participated in and eye witnessed these atrocities was published in the u s in with the title men are like that other references abound rachel a bortnick the jewish times june or was it the armenians who massacred the turks yes to be exact armenians slaughtered million muslim people between and source mccarthy j muslims and minorities the population of ottoman anatolia and the end of the empire new york university press new york pp source hovannisian richard g armenia on the road to independence university of california press berkeley and los angeles p source hovannisian richard g armenia on the road to independence university of california press berkeley and los angeles p the addition of the kars and batum oblasts to the empire increased the area of transcaucasia to over square miles the estimated population of the entire region in was of whom percent were armenian percent georgian and percent moslem of the latter group were tatars paradoxically barely one third of transcaucasia s armenians lived in the erevan guberniia where the christians constituted a majority in only three of the seven uezds erevan uezd the administrative center of the province had only armenians as compared to moslems by the time of the russian census of however the armenians had established a scant majority percent in the guberniia it had risen by to percent or of the inhabitants this impressive change in the province s ethnic character notwithstanding there was on the eve of the creation of the armenian republic a solid block of tartars who continued to dominate the southern districts from the outskirts of ereven to the border of persia see also map historic armenia and map administrative subdivisions of transcaucasia in percent turk we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the tartars and then proceeded in the work of extermination our troops surrounded village after village little resistance was offered our artillery knocked the huts into heaps of stone and dust and when the villages became untenable and inhabitants fled from them into fields bullets and bayonets completed the work some of the tartars escaped of course they found refuge in the mountains or succeeded in crossing the border into turkey the rest were killed and so it is that the whole length of the borderland of russian armenia from nakhitchevan to akhalkalaki from the hot plains of ararat to the cold mountain plateau of the north were dotted with mute mournful ruins of tartar villages they are quiet now those villages except for howling of wolves and jackals that visit them to paw over the scattered bones of the dead ohanus appressian men are like that p some of the references from eminent authors in the field of middle eastern history and eyewitnesses of the armenian genocide of million muslims the armenian revolutionary movement by louise nalbandian university of california press berkeley los angeles diplomacy of imperialism by william i lenger professor of history harward university boston alfred a knopt new york turkey in europe by sir charles elliot edward arnold london the chatnam house version and other middle eastern studies by elie kedouri praeger publishers new york washington the rising crescent by ernest jackh farrar reinhart inc new york toronto spiritual and political evolutions in islam by felix valyi mogan paul trench truebner co london the struggle for power in moslem asia by e alexander powell the century co new york london struggle for transcaucasia by feruz kazemzadeh yale university press new haven conn history of the ottoman empire and modern turkey volumes by stanford j shaw cambridge university press cambridge new york melbourne the western question in greece and turkey by arnold j toynbee constable co ltd london bombay sydney the caliph s last heritage by sir mark sykes macmillan co london men are like that by leonard a hartill bobbs co indianapolis adventures in the near east by a rawlinson dodd meade co world alive a personal story by robert dunn crown publishers inc new york from sardarapat to serves and lousanne by avetis aharonian the armenian review magazine volume fall through spring armenia on the road to independence by richard g hovanessian university of california press berkeley california the rebirth of turkey by clair price thomas seltzer new york caucasian battlefields by w b allen paul muratoff cambridge partition of turkey by harry n howard h fertig new york the king crane commission by harry n howard beirut united states policy and partition of turkey by laurence evans john hopkins university press baltimore british documents related to turkish war of independence by gothard jaeschke neside kerem demir bir sehid anasina tarihin soyledikleri turkiye nin ermeni meselesi hulbe basim ve yayin t a s ankara ingilizce birinci baski the armenian question in turkey veysel eroglu ermeni mezalimi sebil yayinevi istanbul a alper gazigiray osmanlilardan gunumuze kadar vesikalarla ermeni teroru nun kaynaklari gozen kitabevi istanbul dr kirzioglu m fahrettin kars ili ve cevresinde ermeni mezalimi kardes matbaasi ankara t c basbakanlik osmanli arsivi babiali istanbul a yildiz esas evraki b yildiz perakende c irade defterleri d cemaat i gayr i muslime defterleri e meclisi vukela mazbatalari f dahiliye nezareti kalem i mahsus dosyalari g dahiliye nezareti sifre defterleri h babiali evrak odasi siyasi kartonlar i babiali evrak odasi muhimme kartonlari t c disisleri bakanligi hazine i evrak defterdarlik a harb i umumi b muteferrik kartonlar british archives a parliamentary papers hansard commons lords b foreign office confidential print various collections c foreign office turkey correspondence annual reports d foreign office e foreign office political intelligence general correspondence f foreign office ryan papers g foreign office curzon papers h foreign office the eastern conference lausanne files india office records and library blackfriars road london a l political and security five boxes turkey treaty of peace b l p s near east turkey and greece lausanne conference c l p s d l p s french archives archives du ministere des affaires entrangeres quai d orsay paris a documents diplomatiques affaires armeniens collections b guerre turquie legion d orient c levant armenie official publications published documents diplomatic correspondence agreements minutes and others a turkey the ottoman empire and the republic of turkey akarli e ed belgelerle tanzimat istanbul gn kur atase askeri tarih belgeleri dergisi v xxxi dec askeri tarih belgeleri dergisi v xxxii dec hocaoglu m ed ittihad i anasir i osmaniye heyeti nizamnamesi istanbul meray s l trans ed lozan baris konferansi tutanaklar belgeler ankara vols meray s l o olcay ed osmanli imparatorlugu nun cokus belgeleri mondros birakismasi sevr andlasmasi ilgili belgeler ankara osmanli devleti dahiliye nezareti aspirations et agissements revolutionnaires des comites armeniens avant et apres la proclamation de la constitution ottomane istanbul ermeni komitelerinin amal ve hareket i ihtilaliyesi ilan i mesrutiyetten evvel ve sonra istanbul idare i umumiye ve vilayet kanunu istanbul muharrerat i umumiye mecmuasi v i istanbul muharrerat i umumiye mecmuasi v ii istanbul muharrerat i umumiye mecmuasi v iii istanbul muharrerat i umumiye mecmuasi v iv istanbul osmanli devleti hariciye nezareti imtiyazat i ecnebiyye nin lagvindan dolayi memurine teblig olunacak talimatname istanbul osmanli devleti harbiye nezareti islam ahalinin ducar olduklari mezalim hakkinda vesaike mustenid malumat istanbul iv ordu aliye divan i harbi orfisinde tedkik olunan mesele yi siyasiye hakkinda izahat istanbul turkozu h k ed osmanli ve sovyet belgeleriyle ermeni mezalimi ankara turkiye buyuk millet meclisi gizli celse zabitlari ankara vols russia adamof e e ed sovyet devlet arsivi belgeleriyle anadolu nun taksimi plani tran h rahmi ed h mutlucag istanbul altinay a r iki komite iki kital istanbul kafkas yollarinda hatiralar ve tahassusler istanbul turkiye de katolik propagandasi turk tarihi encumeni mecmuasi v xiv sept asaf muammer harb ve mesulleri istanbul akboy c birinci dunya harbinde turk harbi v i osmanli imparatorlugu nun siyasi ve askeri hazirliklari ve harbe girisi gn kur ankara akgun s general harbord un anadolu gezisi ve ermeni meselesi ne dair raporu kurtulus savasi baslangicinda istanbul akin i turk devrim tarihi istanbul aksin s jon turkler ve ittihad ve terakki istanbul basar z ed ermenilerden gorduklerimiz ankara ermeniler hakkinda makaleler derlemeler ankara belen f birinci dunya harbinde turk harbi ankara deliorman a turklere karsi ermeni komitecileri istanbul ege n n ed prens sabahaddin hayati ve ilmi mudafaalari istanbul ercikan a ermenilerin bizans ve osmanli imparatorluklarindaki rolleri ankara gurun k ermeni sorunu yahut bir sorun nasil yaratilir turk tarihinde ermeniler sempozyumu izmir hocaoglu m arsiv vesikalariyla tarihte ermeni mezalimi ve ermeniler istanbul karal e s osmanli tarihi v v th ed v vi nd ed v vii nd ed v viii nd ed ankara kurat y t osmanli imparatorlugu nun paylasilmasi ankara orel s s yuca ermenilerce talat pasa ya atfedilen telgraflarin icyuzu ankara also in english translation ahmad f the young turks the committee of union and progress in turkish politics oxford serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
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now the genocide of the azeri turks of x soviet armenia and karabag in article apr kpc com henrik quayle kpc com writes at last i hope that the u s insists that turkey stay out of the karabakh crisis so that the repeat of the cyprus invasion will never occur again do you have a terminal cold karabag is turkish and will remain turkish here we are almost at the end of the th century and a whole community the azeri turks of x soviet armenia and karabag is facing forced assimilation torture and murder on one hand and forced exodus expulsion and genocide on the other all because of their ethnic and religious background and one should ask herself is the world community really so powerless where are all those human rights advocates where are all the decent people are we going to let this human tragedy go on and do nothing about it the number of azeris murdered by the terrorist armenian army and its savage gangs is increasing on the one hand they wish to distort the truth and on the other they beg mercy from turkiye the age melbourne by helen womack agdam azerbaijan thursday the exact number of victims is still unclear but there can be little doubt that azeri civilians were massacred by armenian fighters in the snowy mountains of nagorno karabakh last week refugees from the enclave town of khojaly sheltering in the azeri border town of agdam give largely consistent accounts of how their enemies attacked their homes on the night of february chased those who fled and shot them in the surrounding forests yesterday i saw freshly dug graves in one cemetery in addition to four mutilated corpses we were shown in the mosque when we arrived in agdam late on tuesday i also saw women and children with bullet wounds in a makeshift hospital in a string of railway carriages khojaly an azeri settlement in the enclave mostly populated by armenians had a population of about mr rashid mamedov commander of police in agdam said only about escaped to his town so where are the rest some might have taken prisoner he said or fled many bodies were still lying in the mountains because the azeris were short of helicopters to retrieve them he believed more than had perished some of cold in temperatures as low as minus degrees one refugee rami nasiru described how khojaly residents at first thought the attack was no more than the routine shooting to which they had become accustomed in four years of conflict but when they saw the armenians with a convoy of armored personnel carriers they realised they could not hope to defend themselves with machineguns and grenades and fled into the forests in the small hours the massacre started mr nasiru who believes his wife and two children were taken prisoner repeated what many other refugees have said that troops of the former soviet army helped the armenians to attack khojaly it is not my opinion i saw it with my own eyes serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
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armenians will not get away with the genocide of azeri people in article apr kpc com henrik quayle kpc com writes da armenia is involved in fighting with azarbaijan it is armenian da soldiers from mainland armenia that are shelling towns in azarbaijan well this is your opinion are you related to arromdian of asala sdpa arf terrorism and revisionism triangle if you feel that you can simply act as a fascist armenian governmental crony in this forum you will be sadly mistaken and duly embarrassed this is not a lecture to another historical revisionist and a genocide apologist but a fact this time fascist x soviet armenian government will not get away with the genocide of azeri men women and children not a chance the sunday times march morgues fill as azeris head for all out war thomas goltz the first to report the massacre by armenian soldiers in the worst violence since the breakup of the soviet union reports from agdam khojaly used to be a barren town with empty shops and treeless dirt roads yet it was still home to thousands of people who in happier times tended fields and flocks of geese last week it was wiped off the map as sickening reports trickled in to the azerbaijani border town of agdam and the bodies piled up in the morgues there was little doubt that khojaly and the stark foothills and gullies around it had been the site of the most terrible massacre since the soviet union broke apart i was the last westerner to visit khojaly that was in january and people were predicting their fate with grim resignation zumrut ezoya a mother of four on board the helicopter that ferried us into the town called her community sitting ducks ready to get shot she and her family were among the victims of the massacre on february the armenians have taken all the outlying villages one by one and the government does nothing balakisi sakikov a father of five said next they will drive us out or kill us all said dilbar his wife the couple their three sons and three daughters were killed in the assault as were many other people i had spoken to it was close to the armenian lines we knew we would have to cross there was a road and the first units of the column ran across then all hell broke loose bullets were raining down from all sides we had just entered their trap the azeri defenders picked off one by one survivors say that armenian forces then began a pitiless slaughter firing at anything moved in the gullies a video taken by an azeri cameraman wailing and crying as he filmed body after body showed a grizzly trail of death leading towards higher forested ground where the villagers had sought refuge from the armenians the armenians just shot and shot and shot said omar veyselov lying in hospital in agdam with sharapnel wounds i saw my wife and daughter fall right by me people wandered through the hospital corridors looking for news of the loved ones some vented their fury on foreigners where is my daughter where is my son wailed a mother raped butchered lost azerbaijan has said as many as refugees were killed as they tried to flee the armenians have denied this saying the civilians were caught in crossfire source the times march corpses litter hills in karabakh anatol lieven comes under fire while flying with azerbaijani forces to investigate the alleged mass killings of refugees by armenian troops as we swooped low over the snow covered hills of nagorno karabagh we saw the scattered corpses apparently the refugees had been shot down as they ran an azerbaijani film of the places we flew over shown to journalists afterwards showed dozens of corpses lying in various parts of the hills the azerbaijanis claim that as many as have died in a mass killing of azerbaijanis fleeing from the town of khodjaly seized by armenians last week a further are believed to be wounded frozen to death or missing seven of us squatted in the cabin of an azerbaijani m attack helicopter as we flew to investigate the claims of the mass killings suddenly there was a thump against the underside of the aircraft a red flash of tracer ripped past the starboard wing and the helicopter rocked sharply we swung round and there was a deafening burst of fire from the cannon under our wing as the helicopter crew returned fire we had been fired on from an armenian anti aircraft post we swung round again tipped to starboard and appeared to dive straight down into a valley the brown earth swooped around our heads the helicopter swung round again and followed the contours of the ground our cannon fired repeated blasts later it emerged that a civilian helicopter that we had been escorting had landed successfully at nakhichevanik in the east of the disputed enclave of nagorno karabakh to pick up some of the dead we had in fact been attacked both by ground fire and by an armenian helicopter i had seen the armenian helicopter intermittently through the window its cannons firing but had thought mistakenly that it was on our side our group of western journalists had embarked on a search and rescue flight that had become a combat mission our flight consisted of the civilian passenger helicopter and two m soviet attack helicopters in the azerbaijani service nicknamed flying crocodiles for their armour our party was in the second crocodile the civilian helicopter s job was to land in the mountains and pick up bodies at sites of the mass killings the attack helicopters were there to give covering fire if necessary the operation showed a striking sign of the disintegration of the soviet armed forces because our pilot was a russian officer an azerbaijani official told us that there were now five former soviet military helicopters and their pilots fighting for azerbaijan they have signed contracts to fly for us he said the helicopter we engaged in combat was most probably flown by a brother officer of our russian pilot but fighting for the armenians we had taken off just before pm on saturday from agdam airfield an heated for the armenian controlled mountains of karabakh a sheer white wall in the distance the civilian helicopter picked up four corpses and it was during this and a previous mission that an azerbaijani cameraman filmed the several the several dozen bodies on the hillsides we then took off again in a hurry and speed back towards azerbaijani lines azerbaijani gunners on the last hill before the plain and safety gazed up at us as we passed back at the airfield in agdam we took a look the bodies the civilian helicopter had picked up two old men a small girl were covered with blood their limbs contorted by the cold and rigor mortis they had been shot what did our russian pilot think of the tragedy our close shave and the war in nagorno karabakh he gave us cheerful grin politely declined to answer ques tions and marched off to his dinner serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
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on the eve of th anniversary commemoration of the turkish holocaust in article apr kpc com henrik quayle kpc com writes oy henrik oy your ignorance manifests itself in an awkward form of intransigence i m not oy going to spend time to review with you the recent history of cyprus good go back to your references and read it over and over i wish the fascist x soviet armenian government would do that well if you prefer to imagine that the american european jewish and armenian scholars were trying to mislead arromdians be my guest source stanford j shaw on armenian collaboration with invading russian armies in history of the ottoman empire and modern turkey volume ii reform revolution republic the rise of modern turkey london cambridge university press pp in april dashnaks from russian armenia organized a revolt in the city of van whose armenians comprised percent of the population closest to an armenian majority of any city in the empire leaving erivan on april armenian volunteers reached van on may and organized and carried out a general slaughter of the local muslim population during the next two days while the small ottoman garrison had to retreat to the southern side of the lake source world alive a personal story by robert dunn crown publishers inc new york memoirs of an american officer who witnessed the armenian genocide of million muslim people p seventh paragraph and p first paragraph the most are inside houses come you and look no dammit my stomach isn t one is a turkish officer in uniform him you must see we were under those trees by the mosque in an open space i don t believe you i said but followed to a nail studded door the man pushed it ajar then spurred away leaving me to check on the corpse i thought i should this charge was so constant so gritted my teeth and went inside the place was cool but reeked of sodden ashes and was dark at first for its stone walls had only window slits rags strewed the mud floor around an iron tripod over embers that vented their smoke through roof beams black with soot all looked bare and empty but in an inner room flies buzzed as the door swung shut behind me i saw they came from a man s body lying face up naked but for its grimy turban he was about fifty years old by what was left of his face a rifle butt had bashed an eye the one left slanted as with tartars rather than with turks any uniform once on him was gone so i d no proof which he was and quickly went out gagging at the mess of his slashed genitals p first paragraph how many people lived there oh about eight hundred he yawned did you see any turk officers no sir i was in at dawn all were tartar civilians in mufti the lieutenant dozed off then i but in the small hours a voice woke me dro s he stood in the starlight bawling out an officer anyone keelhauled so long and furiously i d never heard then abruptly dro broke into laughter quick and simple as child s both were a cover for his sense of guilt i thought or hoped for somehow despite my boast of irreligion christian massacring infidels was more horrible than the reverse would have been from daybreak on armenian villagers poured in from miles around the women plundered happily chattering like ravens as they picked over the carcass of djul they hauled out every hovel s chattels the last scrap of food or cloth and staggered away packing pots saddlebags looms even spinning wheels thank you for a lot dro i said to him back in camp but now i must leave we shook hands the captain said a bientot mon camarade and for hours the old molokan scout and i plodded north across parching plains like lot s wife i looked back once to see smoke bathing all doubtless in a sack of other moslem villages up to the line of snow that was iran p at morning tea dro and his officers spread out a map of this whole high region called the karabakh deep in tactics they spoke russian but i got their contempt for allied neutral zones and their distrust of promises made by tribal chiefs a campaign shaped more raids on moslem villages p it will be three hours to take dro told me we d close in on three sides the men on foot will not shoot but use only the bayonets merrimanov said jabbing a rifle in dumbshow that is for morale dro put in we must keep the moslems in terror soldiers or civilians i asked there is no difference said dro all are armed in uniform or not but the women and children will fly with the others as best they may p the ridges circled a wide expanse its floors still hundreds of feet down the fog held solid as cotton flock djul lies under that said dro pointing our men also attack from the other sides then whee ee his whistle lined up all at the rock edge bayonets clicked upon carbines over plunged archo his black haunches rippling then followed the staff the horde nose to tail bellies taking the spur armenia in action seemed more like a pageant than war even though i heard our utica brass roar as i watched from the height it took ages for djul to show clear a tsing of machine gun fire took over from the thumping batteries cattle lowed dogs barked invisible while i ate a hunk of cheese and drank from a snow puddle mist at last folded upward as men shouted at first heard faintly the came a shrill wailing now among the cloud streaks rose darker wisps smoke red glimmered about house walls of stone or wattle into dry weeds on roofs a mosque stood in clump of trees thick and green through crooked alleys on fire horsemen were galloping after figures both mounted and on foot tartarski shouted the gunner by me others pantomimed them in escape over the rocks while one twisted a bronze shell nose loaded and yanked breech cord firing again and again shots wasted i thought when by afternoon i looked in vain for fallen branch or body but these shots and the white bursts of shrapnel in the gullies drowned the women s cries at length all shooting petered out i got on my horse and rode down toward djul it burned still but little flame showed now the way was steep and tough through dense scrub finally on flatter ground i came out suddenly through alders on smoldering houses across trampled wheat my brothers in arms were leading off animals several calves and a lamb p fourth paragraph corpses came next the first a pretty child with straight black hair large eyes she looked about twelve years old she lay in some stubble where meal lay scattered from the sack she d been toting the bayonet had gone through her back i judged for blood around was scant between the breasts one clot too small for a bullet wound crusted her homespun dress the next was a boy of ten or less in rawhide jacket and knee pants he lay face down in the path by several huts one arm reached out to the pewter bowl he d carried now upset upon its dough steel had jabbed just below his neck into the spine there were grownups too i saw as i led the sorrel around djul was empty of the living till i looked up to see beside me dro s german speaking colonel he said all tartars who had not escaped were dead p more stories of armenian murdering turks when the czarist troops fled north my hosts told me of their duty here to keep tabs on brigands turkish troop shifts hidden arms spies christian red or tartar coming in from transcaucasus then they spoke of the hell that would break loose if versailles were to put as threatened the six armenian vilayets of turkey under the control of erevan an armenia without armenians turks under christian rule his lips smacked in irony under the droopy red moustache that s bloodshed just smyrna over again on a bigger scale source u s library of congress bristol papers general correspondence container while the dashnaks were in power they did everything in the world to keep the pot boiling by attacking kurds turks and tartars by committing outrages against the moslems by massacring the moslems and robbing and destroying their homes during the last two years the armenians in russian caucasus have shown no ability to govern themselves and especially no ability to govern or handle other races under their power source k gurun the armenian file london nicosia istanbul many muslim villages have been destroyed by the soldiers of armenian troops armed with cannons and machine guns before the eyes of our troops and the people according to documented information muslim villages have been destroyed young muslim women have been taken to kars and gumru hundreds of women and children who were able to flee their villages were beaten and killed in the mountains source w e d allen and paul muratoff caucasian battlefields cambridge university press p as the armenians found support among the reds who regarded the tartars as a counter revolutionary elements the fighting soon became a massacre of the tartar population source general bronsart wrote as follows in an article in the july issue of the newspaper deutsche allgemeine zeitung since all the moslems capable of bearing arms were in the turkish army it was easy to organize a terrible massacre by the armenians against defenseless people because the armenians were not only attacking the sides and rear of the eastern army paralyzed at the front by the russians but were attacking the moslem folk in the region as well source quoted by general hamelin in a letter to the high commissioner february in the official history les armees francaises au levant vol p they armenians burned and destroyed many turkish villages as punitive measures in their advance and practically all turkish villages in their retreat from marash source john dewey the turkish tragedy the new republic volume november pp that they armenians boasted of having raised an army of one hundred and fifty thousand men to fight a civil war and that they burned at least a hundred turkish villages and exterminated their population need i go on serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
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talk.politics.mideast
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re armenia says it could shoot down turkish planes in article apr kpc com henrik quayle kpc com writes in article apr sol ctr columbia edu deniz mandolin ctr columbia edu deniz akkus writes well this is your opinion of course it is turkish azeris can bark all they want since the above is untrue however i am sure you guys would have never brought up armenia s involvement if karabakhi armenians had had heavy losses and this is your opinion it is not any more valid due to repeated capital letters and words such as untrue never etc read what the new york times that is publishing anti armenian articles nop i have my resources look everyone knows how aggressive turks azeris have been in the past armenians are not gona sit around and watch fire works by azeris taught by turks so armenians are justified in aggression since supposedly turks have been aggressive in the past i don t follow your logic da i don t wish to get into the cyprus discussion turkey had the right to not a chance you can not convince me based on your reasons that your government did the right thing to invade cyprus i have said that i don t wish to get into cyprus discussion and did not give any reasons for turkey s involvement i also am not trying to convince you of anything seeing no reason to waste any time da lastly why is there not a soc culture armenia i vote yes for it da after all it is now free well i am not in the position to agree or disadree with you i am serious let s get soc culture armenia started and have some peace of mind deniz akkus
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10,093 |
talk.politics.mideast
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re zionism is racism in article apr vm mcgill ca b ha b ha musicb mcgill ca writes in re syria s expansion the author writes that the un thought zionism was racism and that they were wrong they were correct the first time zionism is racism and thankfully the mcgill daily the student newspaper at mcgill was proud enough to print an article saying so if you want a copy send me mail steve i know this paper well and see it for the exercise in selective morality and judgement it is until such time as it recognizes that any religiously based government is racist exclusionary and simply built on a philosophy of separate but equal second class treatment of minorities it will continue to be known for its bias if jewish nationalism is racism so is islam anywhere where people are allotted different rights according to race religion or culture is racist
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10,094 |
talk.politics.mideast
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jewish committee on the middle east jcome i flipped on my local cable access channel a channel where any community member can broadcast whatever they want for about per half hour and saw a documentary i use this term loosely on the conflict in the west bank it was apparently made with a hand held camcorder the quality was terrible and the camera was really jumpy the documentary sic told the tales of all of the children who died in the war against the jews as martyrs it was a regular sob story one victimized youth was recounting on how all he really wants to do is to get an education and that the big bad jews won t let him go to high school he admittedly spent years in prison age to for murdering a jewish woman but claims that it was for the cause i have seen this kind of garbage before i have a lot of sympathy for the palestinian cause as do many jews but i think that even many arabs would be ashamed to call this a documentary the most suprising part is that the only credits shown at the end was an address for the makers of the film named jewish comm on the middle east anybody heard of them they make peace now look like right wingers gedaliah friedenberg department of mechanical engineering department of metallurgy mechanics and materials science michigan state university
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10,095 |
talk.politics.mideast
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re zionism is racism in article apr vm mcgill ca b ha b ha musicb mcgill ca writes in re syria s expansion the author writes that the un thought zionism was racism and that they were wrong they were correct the first time zionism is racism and thankfully the mcgill daily the student newspaper at mcgill was proud enough to print an article saying so if you want a copy send me mail if you want info claiming that blacks were brought to earth trillion years ago by aliens from the plante shabazz i can send you literature from the nation of islam farrakhan s group who believe this if you want info claiming that the holocaust never happened i can send you info from ihr institute for historical review david irving s group or just read dan gannon s posts on alt revisionism i just wanted to put steve s post in with the company that it deserves steve gedaliah friedenberg department of mechanical engineering department of metallurgy mechanics and materials science michigan state university
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10,096 |
talk.politics.mideast
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re ten questions about israel cpr igc apc org center for policy research writes is it true that israeli stocks nuclear weapons if so could you provide any evidence yes israel has nuclear weapons however their use so far has been restricted to killing deer by lsd addicted cherrie soldiers they are locked in the cellar of the garinei afula factory and since the gingi lost the key no one can use them anymore even if the gingi finds the key the chief rabbis have a time lock on the bombs that does not allow them to be activated on the sabbath and during weeks which follow victories of the betar jerusalem soccer team a quick glance at the national league score table will reveal the strategic importance of this fact danny keren
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10,097 |
talk.politics.mideast
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re ten questions about israel cpr igc apc org center for policy research writes from center for policy research cpr subject ten questions about israel i would be thankful if any of you who live in israel could help to provide accurate answers to the following specific questions these are indeed provocative questions but they are asked time and again by people around me questions omitted elias davidsson iceland email elias ismennt is funny you should mention it but i ve heard these questions time and again also why just the other day a couple neo nazis by ucla were passing out literature like this cheers steve steven berson ucla computer science department steven cs ucla edu los angeles ca
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10,098 |
talk.politics.mideast
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accounts of anti armenian human right violations in azerbaijan accounts of anti armenian human right violations in azerbaijan prelude to current events in nagorno karabakh on the way the driver says in fact there aren t any armenians left they burned them all beat them all and stabbed them deposition of vanya bagratovich bazian born foreman baku spetsmontazh administration umsmr resident at building apartment block sumgait azerbaijan during the first days of the events the th and the th of february i was away on a business trip on the th i had got my crew done the paper work and left for the zhdanov district that s in azerbaijan near the nagorno karabagh region after the th rumors started to the effect that in karabagh specifically in stepanakert an uprising had taken place they said uprising in azerbaijani but i don t think it was really an uprising just a demonstration after that the unrest started several armenians living in the zhdanov district were injured how were they injured they were beaten even women it was said that they were at the demonstrations but they live here and went from here to karabagh to demonstrate after that i felt uneasy there were some conversations about armenians among the local population the armenians had done this the armenians had done that right there at the site i was attacked a couple of times by kids well true the guys from my crew wouldn t let them come at me with cables and knives after that i felt really bad i didn t know where to go i up and called home and my children tell me there s unrest everywhere be careful well i had a project going on i told the second secretary of the district party committee what had been going on and said i wanted to take my crew off the site they wouldn t allow it they said nothing s going to happen to you we ve entrusted the matter to the police we ve warned everyone in the district nothing will happen to you well in fact they did especially detail us a policeman to look after me he knows all the local people and would protect me if something happened this man didn t leave me alone for five minutes he was at work the whole time and afterward he spent the night with us too i sense some disquiet and call home my wife also tells me the situation is very tense be careful we finished the job at the site and i left for sumgait first thing on the morning of the th when we left the guys warned me they told me that i shouldn t tell anyone on the way that i was an armenian i took someone else s business travel documents in the name of zardali and hid my own i hid it and my passport in my socks we set out for baku our guys were on the bus they sat behind and i sat up front in baku they had come to me and said that they had to collect all of our travel documents just in case as it turns out they knew what was happening in sumgait i arrive at the bus station and there they tell me that the city of sumgait is closed there is no way to get there that the city is closed off and the buses aren t running buses normally leave baku for sumgait almost every two minutes and suddenly no buses well we tried to get there via private drivers one man an azerbaijani said let s go find some other way to get there they found a light transport vehicle and arranged for the driver to take us to sumgait he took us there but the others had said i wouldn t go if you gave me a thousand rubles why because they re burning the city and killing the armenians there isn t an armenian left well i got hold of myself so i could still stand up so we squared it away the four of us got in the car and we set off for sumgait on the way the driver says in fact there aren t any armenians left they burned them all beat them all and stabbed them well i was silent the whole way odd miles i was silent the driver asks me how old are you old man he wants to know if i m being that quiet not saying anything maybe it means i m an armenian how old are you he asks me i say i m i m too but i call you old man i say it depends on god each person s life in this world is different i look much older than my years that s why he called me old man well after that he was silent too we re approaching the city i look and see tanks all around and a cordon before we get to the kavkaz store the driver starts to wave his hand well he was waving his hand we all start waving our hands i m sitting there with them i start waving my hand too i realized that this was a sign that meant there were no armenians with us i look at the city there is a crowd of people walking down the middle of the street you know and there s no traffic well probably i was scared they stopped our car people were standing on the sidewalks they have armature shafts and stones and they stopped us along the way the driver tells us how they know who s an armenian and who s not the armenians usually for example i m an armenian but i speak their language very well well armenians usually pronounce the azeri word for nut or little nut as pundukh but fundukh is actually correct the pronunciations are different anyone who says pundukh even if they re not armenian they immediately take out and start to slash another one says there was a car there with five people inside it he says they started hitting the side of it with an axe and lit it on fire and they didn t let the people out he says they wouldn t let them get out of the car i only saw the car but the driver says that he saw everything well he often drives from baku to sumgait and back when they stop us we all get out of the car i look and there s a short guy his eyes are gleaming he has an armature shaft in one hand and a stone in the other and asks the guys what nationality they are one by one we re azerbaijani they tell him no armenians here he did come up to me when we were pulling our things out and says maybe you re an armenian old man but in azerbaijani i say you should be ashamed of yourself and he left turned and left that was all that happened what was i to do i had to the city was on fire but i had to steal my children out of my own home they stopped us at the entrance to mir street that s where the kavkaz store and three large story buildings are that s the beginning of down town i saw that burned automobile there completely burned only metal remained i couldn t figure out if it was a zhiguli or a zaporozhets later i was told it was a zhiguli and the people in there were completely incinerated nothing remained of them not even any traces that driver had told me about it and i saw the car myself the car was there the skeleton a metallic carcass about to yards from the kavkaz store i see a military transport an armored personnel carrier the hatches are closed and people are throwing armature shafts and pieces of iron at it the crowd is and i hear shots not automatic fire it s true but pistol shots several shots there were azerbaijanis crowded around that personnel carrier someone in the crowd was shooting apparently they either wanted to kill the soldiers or get a machine gun or something at that point there was only one armored personnel carrier and all the tanks were outside the city cordoning off sumgait i walked on i see two azerbaijanis going home from the plant i can tell by their gait that they re not bandits they re just people walking home i joined them so in case something happened in case someone came up to us and asked questions either of us would be in a position to answer you see but i avoided the large groups because i m a local and might be quickly recognized i tried to keep at a distance and walked where there were fewer people well so i walked into microdistrict which is across from our block i can t get into our block but i walked where there were fewer people so as to get around well there i see a tall guy and to people are walking behind him and he s shouting into a megaphone comrades the armenian azerbaijani war has begun the police have megaphones like that so they re talking and walking around the second microdistrict i see that they re coming my way and turn off behind a building i noticed that they walked around the outside buildings and inside the microdistricts there were about or people standing on every corner and at the middles of the buildings and at the edges what they were doing i can t say because i couldn t get up close to them i was afraid but the most important thing was to get away from there to get home and at least find out if my children were alive or not april yerevan reference the sumgait tragedy pogroms against armenians in soviet azerbaijan volume i eyewitness accounts edited by samuel shahmuradian forward by yelena bonner published by aristide d caratzas ny pages david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org how do we explain turkish troops on s d p a center for regional studies the armenian border when we can t p o box even explain cambridge ma turkish mp march
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10,099 |
talk.politics.mideast
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re armenia says it could shoot down turkish planes henrik and hilmi writes henrik the armenians in nagarno karabagh are simply defending their henrik rights to keep their homeland and it is the azeris that are henrik invading their homeland he homeland first nagarno karabagh was armenians homeland today he fizuli lacin and several villages in azerbadjan he are their homeland can t you see the he the great armenia dream in this with facist methods like he killing raping and bombing villages the last move was the he blast of a truck with kurdish refugees trying to he escape the from lacin a city that was given to the kurds he by the armenians nagorno karabakh is in azerbaijan not armenia armenians have lived in nagorno karabakh ever since there were armenians armenians used to live in the areas between armenia and nagorno karabakh and this area is being used to invade nagorno karabakh armenians are defending themselves if azeris are dying because of a policy of attacking armenians then something is wrong with this policy attacking who is attacking who even the country you live in usa have condemned armenia for it s attacking and you start to say that the attackers are the azeris armenians have lived in nagorno karabakh ever since there were armenians azeris have lived in nagorno karabakh ever since there were azeris don t come with nonsence there is no reason to attack a people just because a man called gorbatjov and co gave the freedom to the people in this area if i recall correctly it was stalin who caused all this problem with land in the first place not the armenians it s easy for people like you to blame history the were a lot of indians living in usa there is no reason for these indians to attack the american people and say it was the fault of the government of germany and great britain because they made people come to our place armenians lived in harmony with the azeris until gorbatjov and co gave freedom to the people in karabag then the armenians started to kill rape and torture the azeris not only in karabag but also noe in azerbadjan henrik however i hope that the armenians will force a turkish airplane henrik to land for purposes of searching for arms similar to the one henrik that happened last summer turkey searched an american plane henrik carrying humanitarian aid bound to armenia he don t speak about things you don t know u s cargo planes he were heading to armenia when the turkish authorities he announced that they were going to search these cargo he planes of these planes returned to it s base in germany he of these planes were searched in turkey the content of he of the other planes not hard to guess is it it was sure not he humanitarian aid what story are you talking about planes from the u s have been sending aid into armenian for two years i would not like to guess about what were in the planes in your story i would like to find out he search turkish planes you don t know what you are talking about he turkey s government has announced that it s giving weapons he to azerbadjan since armenia started to attack azerbadjan he it self not the karabag province so why search a plane for weapons he since it s content is announced to be weapons it s too bad you would want turkey to start a war with armenia that s what i don t want you couldn t imagine the result of a war so france greece and usa wants to start fighting with azerbadjan they give a lot more weapons to the armenians without saying it that s no secret any more i must say that these armenian government is very shortsighted do they think that they shall move from it s neigbours when the war is over the neighbour around will be there and armenia must live in harmony with these if they don t want a stone age country for that s what s will happen armenia if the wars continues look the president of turkey turgut ozal died and petrosyan the armenian presindent is now in turkey for the funeral is it because he liked him sure not because armenia needs it s neighbours and must live with these but armenia can t stop this war with continued ordertaking from states like france and usa with other words if you love your people you must think twice and i wonder shoot down turkish planes with what ohhh i forgot the armenians can t find food but there are a lot of arms from the mentioned countries hilmi eren stockholm university sweden
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