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re about this center for policy resea it seems to me that many readers of this conference are interested who is behind the center for polict research i will oblige my name is elias davidsson icelandic citizen born in palestine my mother was thrown from germany because she belonged to the undesirables at that times this group was defined as jews she was forced to go to palestine due to many cynical factors i have meanwhile settled in iceland years ago and met many people who were thrown out from my homeland palestine because of the same reason they belonged to the indesirables these people include my neighbors in jerusalem with the children of whom i played as child their crime theyare not jews my conscience does not accept such injustice period my work for justice is done in the name of my principled opposition to racism and racial discrimination those who protest against such practices in arab countries have my support as long as their protest is based on a principled position but not as a tactic to deflect criticism from israel the struggle against discrimination and racism is universal the center for policy research is a name i gave to those activities undertaken under my guidance in different domains and which command the support of many volunteers in iceland it is however not a formal institution and works with minimal funds professionally i am music teacher and composer i have published several pieces and my piano music is taught widely in europe i would hope that discussion about israel palestine be conducted in a more civilized manner calling names is not helpful elias davidsson iceland
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re nazi eugenic theories circulated by in my postings i have made a proposal for comments and discussion those who don t want to discuss its merits and drawbacks are not forced to do so however i would make anybody who incites others to harm me or harass in a personal manner legally responsible for their deeds i cannot accept and will not accept threats to my personal integrity and i urge anybody who opposes terror to refrain from direct or indriect threats ps my proposal has nothing to do with nazi eugenics it has to do with the search for peace which would enable justice i don t consider that justice is done when non jews who fled or were expelled in are not permitted to return to their homeland this can at best be called pragmatism a nice word for legitimizing the rule of the strong it can never be called justice and peace without justice will never be peace it is my conviction that the situation in which a state through the law attempts to discourage mixed marriages as israel does is not normal such a state resembles more nazi germany and south africa than western democracies such as the united states in which jews are free to marry whom they wish and do so in the thousands my proposal may have drawbacks but it is meant to force anybody to anything just to compensate for a certain time mixed couples for the hardships tehy endure in a society which disapproves of intermarriage when the day will come and israel will become a truly civil and decmoractic society in which the state is not concerned with the religious or ethnic affiliation of its constituency such a fund would not be needed any more i don t mind if jews wish to marry jews and keep their traditions why not but this is not the affairs of a state western democracy clearly separates these domains and i am certain that most american jews enjoy this fact and would not love to live in a state termed christian state and to have their green cards stamped with a mark jew i would ask those who are genuinely interested in an exchange of views and personal experiencces to refrain from emotional infantile outbursts which might leed readers to infer that jews who respect judaism are uncivilized such behaviour is not good for judaism elias
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a moment of silence april th is approaching and armenians around the world are getting ready to remember the massacres of their family members by the turkish government between and at least million armenians perished during that period and it is important to note that those who deny that this event ever took place either supported the policy of to exterminate the armenians or as we have painfully witnessed in azerbaijan would like to see it happen again thank you for taking the time to read this post helgge
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armenian slaughter of defenseless muslim children and pregnant women in article apr kpc com henrik quayle kpc com writes bm gimme a break capital letters or not the above is pure nonsense bm it seems to me that short sighted armenians are escalating the hostilities again armenians in karabakh are simply defending themselves what do the winding down of winter puts you in a heavy arromdian mood i ll see if i can get our dear mehmetcik to write you a letter giving you and your criminal handlers at the asala sdpa arf terrorism and revisionism triangle some military pointers like how to shoot armed adult males instead of small muslim children and pregnant women source the times march massacre uncovered by anatol lieven more than sixty bodies including those of women and children have been spotted on hillsides in nagorno karabakh confirming claims that armenian troops massacred azeri refugees hundreds are missing scattered amid the withered grass and bushes along a small valley and across the hillside beyond are the bodies of last wednesday s massacre by armenian forces of azerbaijani refugees from that hill can be seen both the armenian controlled town of askeran and the outskirts of the azerbaijani military headquarters of agdam those who died very nearly made it to the safety of their own lines we landed at this spot by helicopter yesterday afternoon as the last troops of the commonwealth of independent states began pulling out they left unhindered by the warring factions as general boris gromov who oversaw the soviet withdrawal from afghanistan flew to stepanakert to ease their departure a local truce was enforced to allow the azerbaijaines to collect their dead and any refugees still hiding in the hills and forest all the same two attack helicopters circled continuously the nearby armenian positions in all bodies could be counted at the scene at least another have been taken into agdam over the past five days these figures do not include civilians reported killed when the armenians stormed the azerbaijani town of khodjaly on tuesday night the figures also do not include other as yet undiscovered bodies zahid jabarov a survivor of the massacre said he saw up to people shot down at the point we visited and refugees who came by different routes have also told of being shot at repeatedly and of leaving a trail of bodies along their path around the bodies we saw were scattered possessions clothing and personnel documents the bodies themselves have been preserved by the bitter cold which killed others as they hid in the hills and forest after the massacre all are the bodies of ordinary people dressed in the poor ugly clothing of workers of the we saw only one policeman and two apparent national volunteers were wearing uniform all the rest were civilians including eight women and three small children two groups apparently families had fallen together the children cradled in the women s arms several of them including one small girl had terrible head injuries only her face was left survivors have told how they saw armenians shooting them point blank as they lay on the ground serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
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traditional and historical armenian barbarism was re watch out in article apr elroy uh edu st elroy uh edu fazia begum rizvi writes seems to me that a lot of good muslims would care about those terms especially those affected by the ideology and actions that such terms decscribe the bosnians suffering from such bigotry comes to mind they get it from people who call them dirty descendants of turks from people who hate their religion and from those who don t think they are really muslims at all since they are white the suffering that they are let us not forget about the genocide of the azeri people in karabag and x soviet armenia by the armenians between and armenians committed unheard of crimes resorted to all conceivable methods of despotism organized massacres poured petrol over babies and burned them raped women and girls in front of their parents who were bound hand and foot took girls from their mothers and fathers and appropriated personal property and real estate and today they put azeris in the most unbearable conditions any other nation had ever known in history aref sadikov sat quietly in the shade of a cafe bar on the caspian sea esplanade of baku and showed a line of stitches in his trousers torn by an armenian bullet as he fled the town of hojali just over three months ago writes hugh pope i m still wearing the same clothes i don t have any others the year old carpenter said beginning his account of the hojali disaster i was wounded in five places but i am lucky to be alive mr sadikov and his wife were short of food without electricity for more than a month and cut off from helicopter flights for days they sensed the armenian noose was tightening around the to people left in the straggling azeri town on the edge of karabakh at about pm a bombardment started such as we had never heard before eight or nine kinds of weapons artillery heavy machine guns the lot mr sadikov said soon neighbours were pouring down the street from the direction of the attack some huddled in shelters but others started fleeing the town down a hill through a stream and through the snow into a forest on the other side to escape the townspeople had to reach the azeri town of agdam about miles away they thought they were going to make it until at about dawn they reached a bottleneck between the two armenian villages of nakhchivanik and saderak none of my group was hurt up to then then we were spotted by a car on the road and the armenian outposts started opening fire mr sadikov said azeri militiamen fighting their way out of hojali rushed forward to force open a corridor for the civilians but their efforts were mostly in vain mr sadikov said only people from his group of made it through including his wife and militiaman son seven of his immediate relations died including his year old elder brother i only had time to reach down and cover his face with his hat he said pulling his own big flat turkish cap over his eyes we have never got any of the bodies back the first groups were lucky to have the benefit of covering fire one hero of the evacuation alif hajief was shot dead as he struggled to change a magazine while covering the third group s crossing mr sadikov said another hero elman memmedov the mayor of hojali said he and several others spent the whole day of february in the bushy hillside surrounded by dead bodies as they tried to keep three armenian armoured personnel carriers at bay as the survivors staggered the last mile into agdam there was little comfort in a town from which most of the population was soon to flee the night after we reached the town there was a big armenian rocket attack some people just kept going mr sadikov said i had to get to the hospital for treatment i was in a bad way they even found a bullet in my sock victims of war an azeri woman mourns her son killed in the hojali massacre in february left nurses struggle in primitive conditions centre to save a wounded man in a makeshift operating theatre set up in a train carriage grief stricken relatives in the town of agdam right weep over the coffin of another of the massacre victims calculating the final death toll has been complicated because muslims bury their dead within hours photographs liu heung ap frederique lengaigne reuter the independent london serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
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armenians serving in the wehrmacht and the ss in article amazon cs duke edu wiener duke cs duke edu eduard wiener writes i can see how little taste you actually have in the cheap shot you took at me when i did nothing more than translate kozovski s insulting reference to milan pavlovic c mon you still haven t corrected yourself wieneramus in april hitler was preparing for the invasion of the caucasus a number of nazi armenian leaders began submitting plans to german officials in spring and summer one of them was souren begzadian paikhar son of a former ambassador of the armenian republic in baku paikhar wrote a letter to hitler asking for german support to his armenian national socialist movement hossank and suggesting the creation of an armenian ss formation in order to educate the youth of liberated armenia according to the spirit of the nazi ideas he wanted to unite the armenians of the already occupied territories of the ussr in his movement and with them conquer historic turkish homeland paikhar was confined to serving the nazis in goebbels propaganda ministry as a speaker for armenian and french language radio broadcastings the armenian language broadcastings were produced by yet another nazi armenian viguen chanth patrick von zur muhlen muehlen p enno meyer a j berkian zwischen rhein und arax jahre deutsch armenische beziehungen heinz holzberg verlag oldenburg pp and the establishment of armenian units in the german army was favored by general dro the butcher he played an important role in the establishment of the armenian legions without assuming any official position his views were represented by his men in the respective organs an interesting meeting took place between dro and reichsfuehrer ss heinrich himmler toward the end of dro discussed matters of collaboration with himmler and after a long conversation asked if he could visit pow camp close to berlin himmler provided dro with his private car a minor problem was that some of the soviet nationals were not aryans but subhumans according to the official nazi philosophy as such they were subject to german racism however armenians were the least threatened and indeed most privileged in august armenians had been recognized as aryans by the bureau of racial investigation in the ministry for domestic affairs meyer berkian ibid pp need i go on serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
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keeping the silent memory of million muslim people alive source men are like that by leonard ramsden hartill the bobbs merrill company indianapolis pages memoirs of an armenian officer who participated in the genocide of million muslim people p their muslim villages were destroyed and they themselves were slain or driven out of the country p we armenians did not spare the tartars if persisted in the slaughtering of prisoners the looting and the rape and massacre of the helpless become commonplace actions expected and accepted as a matter of course i have been on the scenes of massacres where the dead lay on the ground in numbers like the fallen leaves in a forest they had been as helpless and as defenseless as sheep they had not died as soldiers die in the heat of battle fired with ardor and courage with weapons in their hands and exchanging blow for blow they had died as the helpless must with their hearts and brains bursting with horror worse than death itself serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
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the religious persecution cultural oppression and economical in article apr news uiowa edu mau herky cs uiowa edu mau napoleon writes you may not be afraid of anything but you act as if you are i always like your kind of odds the greek governments must be held to account for the sub human conditions of the turkish minority living in the western thrace under the brutal greek domination the religious persecution cultural oppression and economical ex communication applied to the turkish population in that area are the dimensions of the human rights abuse widespread in greece greece s housing policies worry western thrace turks newly built houses belonging to members of the minority community in dedeagac province had he said been destroyed by evros province public works department on dec sungar added that they had received harsh treatment by the security forces during the demolition this is not the first demolition in dedeagac province more than houses were destroyed there between and members of that minority community were made homeless he continued greece government rail roads two turkish ethnic deputies while world human rights organizations scream greeks persistently work on removing the parliamentary immunity of dr sadik ahmet and mr ahmet faikoglu in his page confession salman demirok a former chief of pkk operations in hakkari confessed that high level relations between pkk greece and greek cypriot administration existed according to demirok greek cypriot administration not only gives shelter to pkk guerillas but also supplies them with food and weapons at the temporary camps set up in its territory demirok disclosed that pkk has three safe houses in south cyprus used by terrorists such as ferhat in the camps he added terrorists were trained to use various weapons including rpg s and anti aircraft guns which had been purchased directly from the greek government greek cypriot government has gone to the extent of issuing special identification cards to pkk members so that they can travel from one region to another without being confronted by legal obstacles demirok s account was confirmed by another pkk defector fatih tan who gave himself over to police in hakkari after spending four years with pkk tan explained that the terrorists went through a training in camps in south cyprus sometimes for a period of weeks or more torture in greece hidden reality case kostas andreadis and dimitris voglis andreadis head was covered with a hood and he was tortured by falanga beating on the soles of the feet electric shocks and was threatened with being thrown out of the window an official medical report clearly documented this torture case horst bosniatzki a west german citizen at midnight he was taken to the beach chains were put to his feet and he was threatened to be thrown to the sea he was dragged along the beach for about a km while being punched on the head and kidneys back on the police station he was beaten on the finger tips with a thin stick until one of the fingertips split open case torture of dimitris voglis case brothers vangelis and christos arabatzis vasilis papadopoulos and kostas kiriazis case torture of eight students at thessaloniki police headquarters source the british broadcasting corporation summary of world broadcasting july part a the middle east me a abu nidal s advisers reportedly training pkk asala militants in cyprus nicosia ankara tel aviv the israeli secret service mossad is reported to have acquired significant information in connection with the camps set up in the troodos mountains in cyprus for the training of militants of the pkk and asala armenian secret army for the liberation of armenia according to sources close to mossad about kurdish greek cypriot and armenian militants are undergoing training in the troodos mountains in southern cyprus the same sources stated that abu nidal s special advisers are giving military training to the pkk and asala militants in the camps they added that the militants leave southern cyprus for libya lebanon syria greece and iran after completing their training mossad has established that due to the clashes which were taking place among the terrorist groups based in syria the pkk and asala organisations moved to the greek cypriot part of cyprus where they would be more comfortable they also transferred a number of their camps in northern syria to the troodos mountains mossad revealed that the armenian national movement which is known as the mna has opened liaison offices in nicosia athens and tripoli in order to meet the needs of the camps the offices are used to provide material support for the armenian camps meanwhile the leader of the popular front for the liberation of palestine george habash is reported to have ordered his men not to participate in the operations carried out by the pkk asala which he described as extreme racist extreme nationalist and fascist reliable sources have said that habash believed that the recent operations carried out by the pkk militants show that organisation to be a band of irregulars engaged in extreme nationalist operations they added that he instructed his militants to sever their links with the pkk and avoid clashing with it it has been established that george habash expelled asala militants from his camp after asala s connections with drug trafficking were exposed source alan cowell u s greece in dispute on terror the new york times june p special to the new york times athens june a dispute developed today between athens and washington over united states intelligence reports saying that athens for several months conducted negotiations with the terrorist known as abu nidal they said the contacts were verified in what were termed hard intelligence reports abu nidal leads the palestinian splinter group al fatah revolutionary council implicated in the airport bombings at rome and vienna that contributed to the reagan administration s decision to bomb tripoli libya last year in washington state department officials said that when administration officials learned about the contacts the state department drafted a strongly worded demarche the officials also expressed unhappiness with greece s dealings with asala the armenian liberation army which has carried out terrorist acts against turks serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
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re rejoinder questions to israelis from bc cleveland freenet edu mark ira kaufman newsgroups talk politics mideast subject re rejoinder questions to israelis date apr gmt organization case western reserve university cleveland ohio usa although i realize that principle is not one of your strongest points i would still like to know why do do not ask any question of this sort about the arab countries if you want to continue this think tank charade of yours your fixation on israel must stop you might have to start asking the same sort of questions of arab countries as well you realize it would not work as the arab countries treatment of jews over the last several decades is so bad that your fixation on israel would begin to look like the biased attack that it is everyone in this group recognizes that your stupid center for policy research is nothing more than a fancy name for some bigot who hates israel why don t you try being honest about your hatred of israel i have heard that your family once lived in israel but the members of your family could not cut the competition there is this true about your family is this true about you is this actually not about israel but is really a personal vendetta why are you not the least bit objective about israel do you think that the name of your phony baloney center hides your bias in the least get a clue mr davidsson haven t you realized yet that when you post such stupidity in this group you are going to incur answers from people who are armed with the truth haven t you realized that a piece of selective data here and a piece there does not make up a truth haven t you realized that you are in over your head the people who read this group are not as stupid as you would hope or need them to be this is not the place for such pseudo analysis you will be continually ripped to shreds until you start to show some regard for objectivity or you can continue to show what an anti israel zealot you are trying to disguise your bias behind a pompous name like the center for policy research you ought to know that you are a laughing stock your center is considered a joke and until you either go away or make at least some attempt to be objective you will have a place of honor among the clowns bigots and idiots of usenet i couldn t have said it better mark mike
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re american jewish congress open letter to clinton in article c wb i o blaze cs jhu edu arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu ken arromdee writes in article apr vxcrna cern ch casper vxcrna cern ch casper davi ppe writes i said the fixation on bosnia is due to it being in a european country rather than the third world ken says intervention in somalia is a counter example i am a staunch republican btw the irony of arguing against military intervention with arguments based on vietnam has not escaped me i was opposed to us intervention in somalia for the same reasons although clearly it was not nearly as risky based on the same reasons you mean you were opposed to us intervention in somalia because since somalia is a european country instead of the third world the desire to help somalia is racist i don t think this same reason applies to somalia at all no you have completely misunderstood i was opposed to intervention in somalia for the same reason i am opposed to intervention in bosnia there is no security interest of the united states there which justifies risking the lives of american servicemen and there are too many crises in the world for us to take on all of them in the case of bosnia the risks are obviously much greater and there are other countries in a much better position and with far better reasons to take action than the us the whole point is that somalia is a third world country and we were more willing to send troops there than to bosnia exactly the opposite of what the fixation on european countries theory would predict similarly the desire to help muslims being fought by christians is also exactly the opposite of what that theory predicts you continue to misunderstand i did not say the reason why people want to intervene is because of racist you seem to be overly fond of using this word btw i said the phenomenon was race related which is not the same as racist perhaps this distinction is too subtle for you to grasp motives i said the attention and outrage at the entire yugoslavian situation was a result of it being closer to home happening to people we can identify with and relentlessly harped on by the media i never said anything about which side would be preferred which has a lot more to do with the presentation of the conflict than any psychological factors i think there is no doubt that despite the fact we intervened in somalia the level of attention devoted to there was considerably less than what is devoted to bosnia if the newspapers and tv news i see are any guide dave
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more on center for anti irsael rhetoric dear mr davidsson you claim that your purpose is to fight racism but you don t seem to have any interest in injustice except that which may have been committed by israel the treatment of jews in arab nations an injustice of staggerring proportions is an injustice that you do not seem to care the least bit about why not
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re no humanity in bosnia in apr julian uwo ca mrizvi gfx engga uwo ca mr mubashir rizvi writes it is very encouraging that a number of people took so interest in my posting i recieved a couple of letters too some has debated the statement that events in bosnia are unprecedented in the history of the modern world those who contest this statement present the figures of the world war ii however we must keep in mind that it was a world war and no country had the power to stop it today is the matter not of the power but of the will it seems to be that what we lack is the will the idea of the u s or any other nation taking action i e military intervention in bosnia has not been well thought out by those who advocate such action after the belligerants are subdued it would require an occupation force for one or two generations if you will stop and think about it you will realize that these people have never forgotten a single slight or injury they have imbibed hatred with their mother s milk if we stop the fighting seize and destroy all weapons they will simply go back to killing each other with clubs and the price for this futility will be the lives of the young men and women we send there to die a price i am unwilling to even consider second point of difference which makes it different from the holocast sp is that at that time international community didnot have enough muscle to prevent the unfortunate event there is no valid comparison to the holocaust all of the jewish people that i have known as friends were not brought up to hate to be wary of others most certainly but not to hate and except for the warsaw uprising they were unarmed and even in warsaw badly out gunned it is very easy to speak of muscle when they are someone else s muscles suppose we do this thing what will you tell the parents wives children lovers of those we are sending to die that they gave their lives in some noble cause noble cause separating some mad dogs who will turn on them well i will offer you some muscle suppose we tell them that they have one week this will give foreign nationals time to leave to cease their bloodshed at the end of that week bring in the tomahawk firing ships and destroy belgrade as they destroyed the bosnian cities perhaps when some of their cities are reduced to rubble they will have a sudden attack of brains send in missiles by all means but do not send in troops today inspite of all the might the international community is not just standing neutral but has placed an arms embargo which by all means lift the embargo is to the obvious disadvantage of the weeker side and therefore to the advantage of the bully hence indirecltly and possibly unintentionally mankind has sided with the killers and this i think is unprecedented in the history of the modern world which killers do you honestly believe they are all on one side m rizvi reb
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re was go hezbollah in article apr ncsu edu hernlem chess ncsu edu brad hernlem writes in article bce news service uci edu tclock orion oac uci edu tim clock writes are you suggesting that when guerillas use the population for cover israel should totally back down so the easiest way to get away with attacking another is to use an innocent as a shield and hope that the other respects innocent lives tell me tim what are these guerillas doing wrong assuming that they are using civilians for cover are they not killing soldiers in their country if the buffer zone is to prevent attacks on israel is it not working why is it further neccessary for israeli guns to pound lebanese villages why not just kill those who try to infiltrate the buffer zone you see there is more to the shelling of the villages it is called retaliation getting back getting even it doesn t make sense to shell the villages the least it shows is a reckless disregard by the israeli government for the lives of civilians if you recall a subject was raised some weeks ago that touched upon this when someone claimed that guerillas were manifestations of popular sentiment the topic arose when does a civilian stop becoming a civilian if he houses and shelters guerillas of his own free will aiding them has he violated his civilian status what so the whole bit about attacks on israel from neighboring arab states can start all over again while i also hope for this to happen it will only occur when arab states show that they are prepared to take on the responsibility and the duty to stop guerilla attacks on israel from their soil they have to prove it or provide some guaratees there is no way israel is going to accept their word not with their past attitude of tolerance towards anti israel guerillas in residence if israel is not willing to accept the word of others then imho it has no business wasting others time coming to the peace talks but don t you see that the same statement can be made both ways if lebanon was interested in peace then it should accept the word of israel that the attacks were the cause for war and disarming the hizbollah will remove the cause for its continued occupancy afterall israel has already staged two parts of the withdrawal from areas it occupied in lebanon during slg tim you are ignoring the fact that the palestinians in lebanon have been disarmed hezbollah remains the only independent militia hezbollah does not attack israel except at a few times such as when the idf burned up sheikh mosavi his wife and young son of course if israel would withdraw from lebanon and stop assassinating people and shelling villages they wouldn t make the lebanese so mad as to do that furthermore with hezbollah subsequently disarmed it would not be possible that is not exactly true the hizbollah and their affiliated groups have made several attempts to infiltrate the border of israel it has not without the support and active involvement of syria lebanon would not have been able to accomplish all that has occurred once syria leaves who is to say that lebanon will be able to retain control if syria stays thay may be even more dangerous for israel tim when is the last time that you recall any trouble on the syrian border not lately eh israel knows very well that the syrians are able to restrain all who would use territory under their control to attack israel while lebanon would be better off with syria and israel out of its borders the presence of syrian troops in lebanon has meant a sharp decrease in attacks on israeli territory not on israeli troops in lebanon however please note the distinction in the past two years true but the syrians did allow until at least guerillas to operate in the areas that were under their control provided that those guerillas were attacking israeli lines the problem is that syria is also not as stable a partner for long term peace as others in the area might be shai guday stealth bombers os software engineer thinking machines corp the winged ninjas of the skies cambridge ma
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re basil opinions re water on the brain in article apr ncsu edu hernlem chess ncsu edu brad hernlem writes btw does the litani river not flow west and not south i think that its waters stay entirely within lebanese territory and so what hasan says about the jordan river makes no sense in any case the hasbani river on the other hand flows into the jordan if i am not mistaken the litani river flows in a west southwestern direction and indeed does not run through the buffer zone the hasbani does flow into the jordan but contrary to what our imaginative poster might write there has been no increase in the inflow from this river that is not proportional to climatic changes in rainfall brad hernlem hernlem chess ncsu edu shai guday stealth bombers os software engineer thinking machines corp the winged ninjas of the skies cambridge ma
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re turkey cyprus bosnia serbia greece armenia azeris in article apr cs yale edu karage scus ctstateu edu angelos karageorgiou greek and macedon the only combination writes ok my aykut what about the busload of greek turists that was torched and all the the people in the buis died happened oh about years ago in instanbul what about the greeks in the islands of imbros and tenedos they are not allowed to have churches any more instead momama turkey has turned the church into a warehouse i got a picture too what about the pontian greeks of trapezounta and sampsounta what you now call trabzon and sampson they spoke a thousand year alod language are there any left that still speek or were they islamicised before we start another flamefest and before you start quoting argic all over again or was it somebody else please think i know it is a hard thing to do for somebody not equipped but try nevertheless if turks in greece were so badly mistreated how come they elected two m not one but two representatives in the greek government how come they have free absolutely free hospitalization and education do the turks in turkey have so much if they do then you have every right to shout untill then you can also move to greece and enjoy those privileges but i forget for you do study in a foreign university some poor shod is tiling the earth with his own sweat btw is aziz nessin still writing poetry i d like to read some of his new stuff also who was the guy that wrote on the mountains of tayros please respond kindly to the last two questions i am interested in finding more books from these two people yeian kai eytyxeian the opinions expressed above are nobody else s but angelos karageorgiou mine mine miiinne miiinneeee aaaarrgghhhh live long prosper no carrier any and all mail sent to me can and will be used in any manner whatsoever i may repost or publicise parts of messages or whole messages if you disagree please exercise your freedom of speech and don t send me anything dear mr karageorgiou i would like to clarify several misunderstandings in your posting first the bus incident which i believe was in canakkale three years ago was done by a mentally ill person who killed himself afterwards the pontus greeks were ex changedwith turks in greece in i have to logout now since my greek friend yiorgos here wants to use the computer well i ll be back asta la vista baby
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re public service translation no who the hell is this guy david davidian i think he talks too much yo david you would better shut the f up o k i don t like your attitute you are full of lies and shit didn t you hear the saying don t mess with a turc see ya in hell timucin kaan timucin georgia institute of technology atlanta georgia uucp decvax hplabs ncar purdue rutgers gatech prism gt a internet gt a prism gatech edu
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re how many israeli soldiers does it take to kill a yr old child in article apr bernina ethz ch nadeem p igp ethz ch nadeem malik writes actually if can remember correctly was it not reported and even on camera some time during the israeli invasion of lebanon or when the itifada began that cnn caught regular uniformed israeli soldiers breaking the arms of some arab youngsters in a very professional and brutal manner someone please give full details if they can remember so was it on cnn or not this is one of the few occassions on which such a scene has been transmitted to the west and in the usa it caused uproar and was one of the factors that has significantly changed the preception of the israeli army s role in the mid east so there is proof for you what proof you said above was it not reported and someone please give full details if they can remember hear say is not proof it is obvious that is a systematic policy of the israelis which must be occurring on a massive scale behind the scenes yes like the or more palestinians brutally murdered by their brothers nadeem naftaly stramer intergraph electronics internet nstramer dazixco ingr com lookout road suite a voice fax boulder co quality is everybody s job and it s everybody s job to watch all that they can
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re was go hezbollah in article apr das harvard edu adam endor uucp adam shostack writes tell me do these young men also attack syrian troops in the south lebanon area only israeli and sla and lebanese troops are present syrian troops are deployed north of the awali river between the awali river and the security zone only lebanese troops are stationed with the blood of its soldiers if israel is interested in peace than it should withdraw from our land there must be a guarantee of peace before this happens it seems that many of these lebanese youth are unable to restrain themselves from violence and unable to to realize that their actions prolong israels stay in south lebanon that is your opinion and the opinion of the israeli government i agree peace guarantees would be better for all but i am addressing the problem as it stands now hopefully a comprehensive peace settlement will be concluded soon and will include security guarantees for both sides my proposal was aimed at decreasing the casualties in the interim period in my opinion if israel withdraws unilaterally it would still be better off than staying the israeli gov t obviously agrees with you and is not willing to do such a move i hope to be be able to change your opinion and theirs that s why i post to tpm if the lebanese army was able to maintain the peace then israel would not have to be there until it is israel prefers that its soldiers die rather than its children as i explained i contend that if israel does withdraw unilaterally i believe no attacks would ensue against northern israel i also explained why i believe that to be the case my suggestion is aimed at reducing the level of tension and casualties on all sides it is unfortunate that israel does not agree with my opinion if israel really wants to save some israeli lives it would withdraw unilaterally from the so called security zone before the conclusion of the peace talks such a move would save israeli lives advance peace efforts give israel a great moral lift better israel s public image abroad and give it an edge in the peace negociations since israel can rightly claim that it is genuinely interested in peace and has already offered some important concessions israel should withdraw from lebanon when a peace treaty is signed not a day before withdraw because of casualties would tell the lebanese people that all they need to do to push israel around is kill a few soldiers its not gonna happen that is too bad along with such a withdrawal israel could demand that hizbollah be disarmed by the lebanese government and warn that it will not accept any attacks against its northern cities and that if such a shelling occurs than it will consider re taking the buffer zone and will hold the lebanese and syrian government responsible for it why should israel not demand this while holding the buffer zone it seems to me that the better bargaining position is while holding your neighbors land because israel is not occupying the security zone free of charge it is paying the price for that once israel withdraws it may have lost a bargaining chip at the negociating table but it would save some soldiers lives that is my contention if lebanon were willing to agree to those conditions israel would quite probably have left already unfortunately it doesn t seem that the lebanese can disarm the hizbolah and maintain the peace that is completely untrue hizbollah is now a minor force in lebanese politics the real heavy weights are syria s allies the gov t is supported by syria the lebanese army is over troops and unified like never before hizbollah can have no moral justification in attacking israel proper especially after israeli withdrawal that would draw the ire of the lebanese the syrian and the israeli gov ts if israel does withdraw and such an act hizbolllah attacking israel would be akin to political and moral suicide basil adam adam shostack adam das harvard edu if we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors we sure wouldn t waste them on members of congress john perry barlow
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re clinton s views on jerusalem bf pyuxe cc bellcore com feigenbaum benjamin writes i recently read that during bill clinton s campaign he stated that if elected he would immediately recognize jerusalem as israel s capital according to the article mr clinton reaffirmed this after winning the presidency however during recent talks with president mubarak secretary of state christopher stated that the status of jerusalem will be a final matter of discussion between the parties now i don t want to start a big discussion over the status of jerusalem all i want to know is if anyone can authenticate mr clinton s statements with dates places etc from a recent interview in middle east insight magazine clinton said that he supports moving the us embassy to jerusalem but would not do so at this time because it would interrupt the peace talks msilverm nyx cs du edu go cubs one likes to believe in the freedom of baseball geddy lee
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re what you should know about the serbian greek connection in apr freenet carleton ca aa freenet carleton ca suat kiniklioglu writes first of all i have to reiterate that your terminology in describing the events of are extremely misleading cyprus is not occupied by turkish forces it was invited by turkish cypriots and intervened oh i see i didn t realize this i think that perhaps you should print flyers on this topic and your reasons for thinking the way you do you should then distribute them amongst the world s population you see i don t think there are many people who are aware of this fact thank you for telling us the truth btw i would start by sending your flyers to each of the un officials also after you have distributed your flyers you might consider hiding you see i think that once more people read what you think they will have to lock you up in a mental institute and don t think they will ever let you out it is a strange strange world you live in i feel sorry for you neophytos iacovou university of minnesota email iacovou cs umn edu computer science department rutgers umn cs iacovou
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re basil opinions re water on the brain in article qmdtlinnkrc early bird think com shaig think com shai guday writes in article apr thunder mcrcim mcgill edu hasan mcrcim mcgill edu writes in article apr nysernet org astein nysernet org alan stein writes i guess hasan finally revealed the source of his claim that israel diverted water from lebanon his imagination alan h stein astein israel nysernet org mr water head i never said that israel diverted lebanese rivers in fact i said that israel went into southern lebanon to make sure that no water is being used on the lebanese side so that all water would run into jordan river where there israel will use it head of course posting some hard evidence or facts is much more difficult you have not bothered to substantiate this in any way basil do you know of any evidence that would support this i agree with shai there are many references to israeli plans on the litani river but i have yet to find hard evidence i had mentioned before that there is a report commissioned by the un to study the litani river it is still in draft form the israeli gov t also commissioned a study on the river that was done by dr ben wolfe the litani starts in the bekaa valley in lebanon flows southward then west across south lebanon and discharges into the mediterranean near the city of tyre there are other rivers such as the hasbani and the wazzani that start in lebanese territory than join the jordan river the most mentioned plan was one that would divert water from the litani into these then the water would flow naturally into the lac de houle but there is no evidence of any diversion structure which would need to be at least km long the area is mountainous inaccessible and occupied by israel so i have not seen any independent reports of the existence of any diversion structure there another often mentioned diversion is through deep wells it is also rumored that israe has m wells tapping into deep aquifers and drawing water on the israeli side of the border if such wells are indeed under use they would be costly to operate high energy costs and the lebanese and israeli gov t should agree on the distribution of water from shared aquifers as part of an overall peace plan and the bilateral negociations on regional issues the fact that we have been at war all this time has led to the current state of affairs where withdrawals from such aquifers is completely unregulated basil hasan shai guday stealth bombers os software engineer thinking machines corp the winged ninjas of the skies cambridge ma
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re was go hezbollah in article bce news service uci edu tclock orion oac uci edu tim clock writes in article apr yuma acns colostate edu bh lance colostate edu writes your view of this entire matter is far too serenely one sided and selectively naive oooh now that hurts i will not suffer you through more naive and one sided views of mine please skip my articles in the future oh wise tim and have a good day basil
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re was go hezbollah in article shaig apr composer think com shaig composer think com shai guday writes snip imagine it is not a terrorist camp as you and the israelis like to view the villages they are small communities with kids playing soccer in the streets women preparing lunch men playing cards etc i would not argue that all or even most of the villages are terrorist camps there are however some which come very close to serving that purpose and that is not to say that other did not function in that way prior to the invasion the village i described was actually the closest i could come to describing mine i agree there may be other villages where the civilian population has deserted because it is too close to israeli lines and thus gets bombed more often in such villages often the only remaining inhabitants are guerillas and some elderly who have nowhere else to go but for the most part the typical south lebanon village is more like mine one where civilians and guerillas live together they are often inhabiting the same house many families are large some have members of the families involved in hizollah most others are not that is what is so hard of south lebanon israel is not fighting an army with well drawn battle lines but a guerilla tyoe resistance which by definition and necessity blends with the local populace not because they are evil cowards that use women and children as shields but because that is the only way one can fight a more powerful better equipped occupying army some of the villages and yours might well be among them are as you describe not all are there are a large number of groups in the area backed by various organizations with a wide range of purposes hizbollah and amal were two of the larger ones and may still be hizbollah and amal are now the main two militias though hizbollah people tend to be more committed to resistrance operation and better motivated by religious conviction as to retaliation while mistakes may be made that is still a far cry from indiscriminate bombing which would have produced major casualties it may be a mixture of what we both say sometimes israel chooses its targets carefully at other times it just sends its pilots on sorties aimed at a town in general since it only knows that the attackers came from that specific village but has no further intelligence on several occasions israel retalliated against civilian refugee camps even in north lebanon just to show that it will not sit idly after its soldiers have been attacked most of the time it directs the sla to do the dirty work and indiscriminately shell some lebanese villages on the other side i have experienced this shelling myself on several occasions this is why the sla militia is sometimes even more despised than israeli troops well here we disagree i think that israel would willingly withdraw if the lebanese gov t was able to field a reliable force in the area to police it and prevent further attacks i hope you are right on israeli willingness to withdraw but i still contend that withdrawal would be the better course for israel s security since it would reduce its military losses and i claim that the lebanese and syrian gov ts would be able to prevent any further attacks on northern israel there seems to be very little incentive for the syrian and lebanese goovernment to allow hizbollah to bomb israel proper under such circumstances and now the lebanese government has proven that it is capable of controlling and disarming all militias as they did in all other parts of lebanon no the syrian gov t is more than happy to have israel sink into another lebanese morass i could elaborate if necessary hmm here we disagree on what serves syria interests better i think syria wants to have lebanon all to itself it would be willing to guarantee northern israel s security in return for israeli withdrawal i don t think syria wants israel to be involved in its protectorate of lebanon syria is sitting at the negotiating table because it has come to accept that and wants to get a political resolution a renewal of hostilities along the lebanese front could put the whole me peace negotiations back in question i agree only in the case of the isareli soldiers their killing cannot be qualified as murder no matter what you say no but it is regretable as is the whole situation i agree that the loss of any human life is deplorable and regrettable shai guday stealth bombers os software engineer thinking machines corp the winged ninjas of the skies cambridge ma basil
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suicide bomber attack in the territories attention israel line recipients friday april two arabs killed and eight idf soldiers wounded in west bank car bomb explosion israel defense forces radio galei zahal reports today that a car bomb explosion in the west bank today killed two palestinians and wounded eight idf soldiers the blast is believed to be the work of a suicide bomber radio reports said a car packed with butane gas exploded between two parked buses one belonging to the idf and the other civilian both busses went up in flames the blast killed an arab man who worked at a nearby snack bar in the mehola settlement an israel radio report stated that the other man who was killed may have been the one who set off the bomb according to officials at the haemek hospital in afula the eight idf soldiers injured in the blast suffered light to moderate injuries danny keren
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investment in yehuda and shomron in today s israeline posting at the end an afterthought i read more money allocated to building infrastructure in territories to create jobs for palestinians kol yisrael reports that public works geared at building infrastructure costing million new israeli shekels about million dollars will begin sunday in the territories this was announced last night by prime minister yitzhak rabin and finance minister avraham shohat in an effort to create more jobs for palestinian residents of the territories this infusion of money will bring allocations given to developing infrastructure in the territories this year to million nis up from last year s figure of million nis while i applaud investing of money in yehuda shomron v chevel azza in order to create jobs for their residents i find it deplorable that this has never been an active policy of any israeli administration since with regard to their jewish residents past governments found funds to subsidize cheap read affordable housing and the requisite infrastructure but where was the investment for creating industry which would have generated income and jobs after years yehuda and shomron remain barren bereft of even middle sized industries and the jewish settlements are sterile bedroom communities havens for in the main israelis both secular and religious who work in tel aviv or jerusalem but cannot afford to live in either city or their surrounding suburbs there s an old saying bli giboosh ayn kivoosh just living there wasn t enough we had to really settle it but instead we settled for potemkin villages and now we are paying the price and doing for others what we should have done for ourselves yonatan b horen jews who do not base their advocacy of jewish positions and interests on judaism are essentially racists the only horen netcom com morally defensible grounds for the preservation of jews as a separate people rest on their religious identity as jews
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re no free man propaganda machine freeman with blood greetings from israel in article qev innnk early bird think com shaig think com shai guday writes in article apr thunder mcrcim mcgill edu hasan mcrcim mcgill edu writes as for israelis menahim begal begin and yitzhak shakh shamir were leaders cute real cute now can you please stop being childish and get on with the issues of many of these gangs that massacred palestineans and became the heros of israel and its prime ministers oh sorry i forgot ben gurion too i hope he is enjoying his coffin now if israelis donot support which i doubt the oppression and killing from s now you probably mean the mass murders of jews in the west bank between hasan shai guday naftaly naftaly stramer intergraph electronics internet nstramer dazixco ingr com lookout road suite a voice fax boulder co quality is everybody s job and it s everybody s job to watch all that they can
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car bomb in the west bank from israeline two arabs killed and eight idf soldiers wounded in west bank car bomb explosion israel defense forces radio galei zahal reports today that a car bomb explosion in the west bank today killed two palestinians and wounded eight idf soldiers the blast is believed to be the work of a suicide bomber radio reports said a car packed with butane gas exploded between two parked buses one belonging to the idf and the other civilian both busses went up in flames the blast killed an arab man who worked at a nearby snack bar in the mehola settlement an israel radio report stated that the other man who was killed may have been the one who set off the bomb according to officials at the haemek hospital in afula the eight idf soldiers injured in the blast suffered light to moderate injuries the arab that was killed was a probably from the mossad so it is not count as a murder naftaly naftaly stramer intergraph electronics internet nstramer dazixco ingr com lookout road suite a voice fax boulder co quality is everybody s job and it s everybody s job to watch all that they can
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re was go hezbollah in article apr yuma acns colostate edu bh longs lance colostate edu basil hamdan writes in article shaig apr composer think com shaig composer think com shai guday writes that is what is so hard of south lebanon israel is not fighting an army with well drawn battle lines but a guerilla tyoe resistance which by definition and necessity blends with the local populace not because they are evil cowards that use women and children as shields but because that is the only way one can fight a more powerful better equipped occupying army while that is currently true from their perspective it is also worthwhile to note that in such cases the populace often does suffer from attempts to control the guerillas furthermore there were cases in the past of palestinian gun emplacements being situated within villages the argument that can be made for small arms fire can not be made for field pieces hizbollah and amal are now the main two militias though hizbollah people tend to be more committed to resistrance operation and better motivated by religious conviction as i recall amal was primarily nationalistically lebanon for the lebanese motivated i think that the difference between them was also a matter of funding and support one question does come to mind however given that you claim the hizbollah to be more committed etc and that their stated position is no peace talks no peace talks n no peace talks n no israel if we assume that lebanon and syria are sincere in their desire for peace why hasn t the hizbollah been disarmed i hope you are right on israeli willingness to withdraw but i still contend that withdrawal would be the better course for israel s security since it would reduce its military losses and i claim that the lebanese and syrian gov ts would be able to prevent any further attacks on northern israel bearing in mind the above and that military losses are more palatable than civilian ones i am sure you can understand why israel is slow to act in that manner no the syrian gov t is more than happy to have israel sink into another lebanese morass i could elaborate if necessary hmm here we disagree on what serves syria interests better i think syria wants to have lebanon all to itself it would be willing to guarantee northern israel s security in return for israeli withdrawal i don t think syria wants israel to be involved in its protectorate of lebanon syria is sitting at the negotiating table because it has come to accept that and wants to get a political resolution a renewal of hostilities along the lebanese front could put the whole me peace negotiations back in question i agree that syria wants lebanon to be part of its greater syria i don t necessarily see that the syrians would be unhappy to see israel up to its neck in another lebanese morass afterwhich syria could continue on its merry schedule when israeli public opinion would lead to a second pullout i agree that the loss of any human life is deplorable and regrettable sigh why can t some gov ts negotiate as easily as some people shai guday stealth bombers os software engineer thinking machines corp the winged ninjas of the skies cambridge ma
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accounts of anti armenian human rights violations in azerbaijan accounts of anti armenian human right violations in azerbaijan prelude to current events in nagorno karabakh i said that on february when those people were streaming down our street they were shouting long live turkey and glory to turkey and during the trial i said to that ismailov what does that mean glory to turkey i still don t understand what turkey has to do with this we live in the soviet union that turkey told you to or is going to help you kill armenians i still don t understand why glory to turkey i asked that question twice and got no answer no one answered me deposition of emma setrakovna sargisian born cook sumgait emergency hospital resident at building apartment block sumgait azerbaijan to this day i can t understand why my husband an older man was killed what was he killed for he hadn t hurt anyone hadn t said any word he oughtn t have why did they kill him i want to find out from here from there from the government why my husband was killed on the th when i returned from work it was a saturday my son was at home he doesn t work i went straight to the kitchen and he called me mamma is there a soccer game there were shouts from lenin street that s where we lived i say i don t know igor i haven t turned on the tv he looked again and said mamma what s going on in the courtyard i look and see so many people it s awful marching marching there are hundreds thousands you can t even tell how many there are they re shouting down with the armenians kill the armenians tear the armenians to pieces my god why is that happening what for i had known nothing at that point we lived together well in friendship and suddenly something like this it was completely unexpected and they were shouting long live turkey and they had flags and they were shouting there was a man walking in front well dressed he s around or in a gray raincoat he is walking and saying something i can t make it out through the vent window he is walking and saying something and the children behind him are shouting tear the armenians to pieces and down with the armenians they shout it again and then shout hurrah the people streamed without end they were walking in groups and in the groups i saw that there were women too i say my god there are women there too and my son says those aren t women mamma those are bad women well we didn t look a long time they were walking and shouting and i was afraid i simply couldn t sit still i went out onto the balcony and my azerbaijani neighbor is on the other balcony and i say khalida what s going on what happened she says emma i don t know i don t know i don t know what happened well she was quite frightened too they had these white sticks each second or third one had a white rod they re waving the rods above their heads as they walk and the one who s out front like a leader he has a white stick too well maybe it was an armature shaft but what i saw was white i don t know my husband got home or minutes later he comes home and i say oh dear i m frightened they re going to kill us i bet and he says what are you afraid of they re just children i say everything that happens comes from children there had been and year kids from the technical and vocational school don t fear he said it s nothing nothing all that bad he didn t eat he just lay on the sofa and just then on television they broadcast that two azerbaijanis had been killed in karabakh near askeran when i heard that i couldn t settle down at all i kept walking here and there and i said they re going to kill us the azerbaijanis are going to kill us and he says don t be afraid then we heard from the central square there are women shouting near near the stage well they re shouting different things and you couldn t hear every well i say you speak azerbaijani well listen to what they re saying he says close the window and go to bed there s nothing happening there he listened a bit and then closed the window and went to bed and told us come on go to sleep it s nothing sleep what did he mean sleep my son and i stood at the window until two in the morning watching well he s sick and all of this was affecting him i say igor you go to bed i m going to go to bed in a minute too he went and i sat at the window until three and then went to bed things had calmed down slightly the th sunday was my day off my husband got up and said come on emma get up i say today s my day off let me rest he says aren t you going to make me some tea well i felt startled and got up and said where are you going he says i m going out i have to i say can you really go outside on a day like today don t go out for god s sake you never listen to me i know and you re not going to listen to me now but at least don t take the car out of the garage go without the car and he says come on close the door and then on the staircase he muttered something i couldn t make it out he probably said coward or something i closed the door and he left and i started cleaning picking things up around the house everything seemed quiet until one o clock in the after noon but at the bus station my neighbor told me cars were burning i said khalida was it our car she says no no emma don t be afraid they were government cars and zhigulis our car is a gaz volga and i waited it was four o clock five o clock and when he wasn t home at seven i said oh they ve killed shagen tires are burning in town there s black smoke in town and i m afraid i m standing on the balcony and i m all my whole body is shaking my god they ve probably killed him so basically i waited like that until ten o clock and he still hadn t come home and i m afraid to go out at ten o clock i look out across from our building is a building with a bookstore and from upstairs from the second floor everything is being thrown outside i m looking out of one window and igor is looking out of the other and i don t want him to see this and he as it turns out doesn t want me to see it we wanted to hide it from one another i joined him mamma he says look what they re doing over there they were burning everything and there were police standing there or of them maybe twenty policemen standing on the side and the crowd is on the other side and two or three people are throwing everything down from the balcony and one of the ones on the balcony is shouting what are you standing there for burn it when they threw the television wow it was like a bomb our neighbor on the third floor came out on her balcony and shouted why are you doing that why are you burning those things those people saved with such difficulty to buy those things for their home why are you burning them and from the courtyard they yell at her go inside go inside instead why don t you tell us if they are any of them in your building or not they meant armenians but they didn t say armenians they said of them she says no no no none then she ran downstairs to our place and says emma emma you have to leave i say they ve killed shagen anyway what do we have to live for it won t be living for me without shagen let them kill us too she insists saying emma get out of here go to khalida s and give me the key when they come i ll say that it s my daughter s apartment that they re off visiting someone i gave her the key and went to the neighbor s but i couldn t endure it i say igor you stay here i m going to go downstairs and see maybe papa s papa s there meanwhile they were killing the two brothers alik and valery albert and valery avanesians see the accounts of rima avanesian and alvina baluian in the courtyard there is a crowd near the building they re shouting howling and i didn t think that they were killing at the time alik and valery lived in the corner house across from ours when i went out into the courtyard i saw an azerbaijani our neighbor a young man about years old i say madar uncle shagen s gone let s go see maybe he s dead in the garage or near the garage let s at least bring the corpse into the house he shouts aunt emma where do you think you re going go back into the house i ll look for him i say something will happen to you too because of me no madar i m coming too well he wouldn t let me go all the same he says you stay here with us i m go look he went and looked and came back and said aunt emma there s no one there the garage is closed madar went off again and then returned and said aunt emma they re already killed alik and valery s there wheezing madar wanted to go up to him but those scoundrels said don t go near him or we ll put you next to him he got scared he s young and came back and said i m going to go call maybe an ambulance will come at least to take alik maybe he ll live they grew up together in our courtyard they knew each other well they had always been on good terms he went to call but not a single telephone worked they had all been shut off he called and called and called and called nothing i went upstairs to the neighbor s igor says two police cars drove up over there their headlights are on but they re not touching them they are still lying where they were they re still lying there we watched out the window until four o clock and then went downstairs to our apartment i didn t take my clothes off i lay on the couch so as not to go to bed and at six o clock in the morning i got up and said igor you stay here at home don t go out don t go anywhere i m going to look i have to find papa dead or alive let me go i ve got the keys from work at six o clock i went to the emergency hospital the head doctor and another doctor opened the door to the morgue i run up to them and say doctor is shagen there he says what do you mean why should shagen be here i wanted to go in but he wouldn t let me there were only four people in there they said well they must have been awful because they didn t let me in they said shagen s not here he s alive somewhere he ll come back it s already seven o clock in the morning i look and there is a panel truck with three policemen some of our people from the hospital were there with them i say sara baji sister sara term of endearment go look they ve probably brought shagen i said it shouted it and she went and came back and says no emma he has tan shoes on it s a younger person now shagen just happened to have tan shoes light tan they were already old when they said it like that i guessed immediately i went and said doctor they ve brought shagen in dead he says why are you carrying on like that dead dead he s alive but then he went all the same and when he came back the look on his face was i could tell immediately that he was dead they knew one another well shagen had worked for him a long time i say doctor is it shagen he says no emma it s not he it s somebody else entirely i say doctor why are you deceiving me i ll find out all the same anyway if not today then tomorrow and he said i screamed right there in the office he says emma go go calm down a little another one of our colleagues said that the doctor had said it was shagen but in hideous condition they tried to calm me down saying it wasn t shagen a few minutes later another colleague comes in and says oh poor emma when she said it like that there was no hope left that day was awful they were endlessly bringing in dead and injured people at night someone took me home i said igor papa s been killed on the morning of the st i left igor at home again and went to the hospital i had to bury him somehow do something i look and see that the hospital is surrounded by soldiers they are wearing dark clothes hey citizen where are you going i say i work here and from inside someone shouts yes yes that s our cook let her in i went right to the head doctor s office and there is a person from the city health department there he used to work with us at the hospital he says emma shagen s been taken to baku in the night they took the wounded and the dead all of them to baku i say doctor how will i bury him he says we re taking care of all that don t you worry we ll do everything we ll tell you about it where did you spend the night i say i was at home he says what do you mean you were at home you were at home alone i say no igor was there too he says you can t stay home we re getting an ambulance right now wait just one second the head doctor is coming we re arranging an ambulance right now you put on a lab coat and take one for igor you go and bring igor here like a patient and you ll stay here and we ll se later what to do next his last name is kagramanov the head doctor s name is izyat jamalogli sadukhov the ambulance arrived and i went home and got igor they admitted him as a patient they gave us a private room an isolation room we stayed in the hospital until the th some police car came and they said emma let s go and the women our colleagues then they saw the police car became anxious and said where are you taking her i say they re going to kill me too and the investigator says why are you saying that we re going to make a positive identification we went to baku and they took me into the morgue i still can t remember what hospital it was the investigator says let s go we need to be certain maybe it s not shagen and when i saw the caskets lying on top of one another i went out of my mind i say i can t look no the investigator says are there any identifying marks i say let me see the clothes or the shoes or even a sock i ll recognize them he says isn t they re anything on his body i say he has seven gold teeth and his finger he only has half of one of his fingers shagen was a carpenter he had been injured at work they brought one of the sleeves of the shirt and sweater he was wearing they brought them and they were all burned when i saw them i shouted oh they burned him i shouted i don t know i fell down or maybe i sat down i don t remember and that investigator says well fine fine since we ve identified that these are his clothes and since his teeth since he has seven gold teeth on the th they told me emma it s time to bury shagen now i cried how how can i bury shagen when i have only one son and he s sick i should inform his relatives he has three sisters i can t do it by myself they say ok you know the situation how will they get here from karabagh how will they get here from yerevan there s no transportation it s impossible he was killed on february and i buried him on march we buried him in sumgait they asked me where do you want to bury him i said i want to bury him in karabagh where we were born let me bury him in karabagh i m shouting and the head of the burial office i guess says do you know what it means take him to karabagh it means arson i say what do you mean arson don t they know what s going on in karabagh the whole world knows that they killed them and i want to take him to karabagh i don t have anyone anymore i begged i pleaded i grieved i even got down on my knees he says let s bury him here now and in three months in six months a year if it calms down i ll help you move him to karabagh our trial was the first in sumgait it was concluded on may at the investigation the murderer tale ismailov told how it all happened but then at the trial he tried to wriggle he tried to soften his crime then they brought a videotape recorder i guess and played it and said ismailov look is that you he says yes well look here you re describing everything as it was on the scene of the crime right he says yes and now you re telling it differently he says well maybe i forgot like that the witnesses and that criminal creep himself said that when the car was going along mir street there was a crowd of about people shagen had a volga gaz the people surrounded his car and all of them were involved one of them was this ismailov guy this tale they it s unclear who started pulling shagen out of the car well one says from the left side of the car another says from the right side they pulled off his sports jacket he had a jacket on well they ask him what s your nationality he says armenian well they say from the crowd they shouted if he s an armenian kill him kill him they started beating him they broke seven of his ribs and his heart i don t know they did something there too it s too awful to tell about anyway they say this tale guy he had an armature shaft he says i picked it up it was lying near a bush that s where i got it he said he picked it up but the witnesses say that he had already had it he said i hit him twice he said once or twice on the head with that rod and he said that when he started to beat him shagen was sitting on the ground and when he hit him he fell over he said i left right nearby they were burning things or something in an apartment killing someone he says and i came back to look is that shagen alive or not i said you wanted to finish him right and if he was still alive you came back to hit him again he went back and looked and he was already dead after that that bastard tale said after that i went home i said you you little snake i said are you a thief and a murderer shagen had had money in his jacket and a watch on his wrist they were taken he says he didn t take them when they overturned and burned the car that tale was no longer there it was other people who did that who it was who turned over the car and who burned it that hasn t been clarified as yet i told the investigator how can you have the trial when you don t know who burned the car he said something but i didn t get what he was saying but i said you still haven t straightened everything out i think that s unjust when they burned the car he was lying next to it and the fire spread to him in the death certificate it says that he had third degree burns over percent of his body and i ask again why was he killed my husband was a carpenter he was a good craftsman he knew how to do everything he even fixed his own car with his own hands we have three children three sons only igor was with me at the time the older one was in pyatigorsk and the younger one is serving in the army and now they re fatherless i couldn t sit all the way through it when the procurator read up to years deprivation of freedom i just i went out of my mind i didn t know what to do with myself i said how can that be you i said you are saying that it was intentional murder and the sentence is years deprivation of freedom i screamed i had my mind i said let me at that creep with my bare hands i ll a relative restrained me and there were all those military people there i lest i said this isn t a soviet trial this is unjust that s what i shouted l said it and left i said that on february when those people were streaming down our street they were shouting long live turkey and glory to turkey and during the trial i said to that ismailov what does that mean glory to turkey i still don t understand what turkey has to do with this we live in the soviet union that turkey told you to or is going to help you kill armenians i still don t understand why glory to turkey i asked that question twice and got no answer no one answered me may yerevan reference the sumgait tragedy pogroms against armenians in soviet azerbaijan volume i eyewitness accounts edited by samuel shahmuradian forward by yelena bonner published by aristide d caratzas ny pages david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org how do we explain turkish troops on s d p a center for regional studies the armenian border when we can t p o box even explain cambridge ma turkish mp march
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re deir yassin in article apr cs rit edu bdm cs rit edu brendan d mckay writes i have previously posted quotations by irgun participants that totally destroys begin s whitewash i have no particular desire to post it yet again brendan normally bdm cs anu edu au you apparently think you are some sort of one man judge and jury who can declare total victory and then sit back and enjoy the applause but you ve picked the wrong topic if you think a few rigged quotations can sustain the legend and lie of the deir yassin massacre you have a lot to learn when it comes to historical methodology at the most basic level you should know that there is a big difference between weighing evidence fairly and merely finding quotations that support your preset opinions if you have studied the history of israel at all you must know that many of the sources of your quotations have an axe to grind and therefore you must be very careful about whom you quote for example meir pa il whom you cite was indeed a general a scholar and a war hero but that doesn t mean everything that comes out of his mouth is gold in fact and here your lack of experience shows pa il is such a fanatic embittered leftist that much of his anti israel blathering forget about anti irgun blathering would be considered something like treason in non israel contexts but of course you don t consider this at all when you find a juicy quotation that you can use to attack israel benny morris of hashomer hatzair represents himself as a scholar when he rehashes the old attacks on the irgun don t be fooled it s just the old zionist ideological catfight surfacing as an attack on the then likud government if you will look closely at the section on deir yassin in his book on the war of independence you will see his indictment to be pure hot air and this is the best he can do after decades of digging for any sort of damning evidence unfortunately for him because his book parades itself as scholarly he is forced to put footnotes so you can clearly see that his deir yassin account is based on nothing the deir yassin massacre never took place as the propagandists tell it any more than the sabra and shatila massacres do you get the feeling people like to blame the jews for massacres even if they have to make them up it must sound spicy even some jews like to do it for reasons of their own please don t confuse any of you deir yassin massacre stuff with facts or scholarship you should stick to begin s version unless you find something serious to contradict it vic
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re israeli terrorism tsiel writes if indeed israeli soldiers killed a hamas mujahid with an anti tank missile then i m almost sure that the terrorist zionists would not have been able to cut up a body which was probably desintegrated by the missile maybe the missile didn t hit directly such that his body gets desintegrated of course destroying houses to kill someone is not a surgical operation or is it cl cleveland freenet edu h a m z a foo i e most foo
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re israeli terrorism m z magil writes it surprises me that this story has not yet made it to the front pages of the major newspapers which love to make the state of israel look as evil as humanly possible such a story would be eaten up by some of the papers over here so please explain to me why i have never seen nor heard of it before believe me i m not expecting a reply because we both know where the story came from your dreams i would like to remind my jewish colleague mzm that much of the stories of the holocaust including the ones in the u s holocaust memorial museum were not eaten up by some of the papers we just have to wait to build muesums for it cl cleveland freenet edu h a m z a foo i e most foo
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re turkey cyprus bosnia serbia greece armenia azeris in article apr usage csd unsw oz au hydra maths unsw edu au writes i ve heard many turks say this and it surpises me that they don t read about it remember the treaty of sevres as a consequence of being in the axis powers in wwi the turks under international law were supposed to look after their minorities ie greeks armenians kurds i must say turk kurd relations are improving slightly with time and not pose a threat to turkey s neighbours the turks blatantly rejected this treaty the germans grudgingly accepted versailles which was a million times worse for the health and pride of the german people the greeks who had an army there were there with british and french backing to enforce sevres in possibly the first example of appeasement the young turk government managed screwed the treaty of laussane out of the weak allies this was after the greek forces were were destroyed at smyrna when this occurred incidently french warships were in the harbour and many greeks trying escape swam to the french warships and climbed aboard only to get their arms cut off by the french as they clawed they re way up the sides of the ships libertae egalitae fraternatae it seems to me that you are the one who is supposed to do some reading i think that our major difference in opinion is on the legitimacy of sevres first thattreaty was signed by the ottoman empire therefore legally it does not bind the republic of turkey the new independence movement which by the way is not the same as the young turks naturally rejected it out of hand to say that we should accept because the germans did theirs is absurd we saw what the cosequences of such harsh treaties were in hitler second the sevres treaty was even worse than versailles it divided the ottoman empire in to several influence zones had the capital occupied the economy under allied control the army di minished to nothing but a police force in short a country in name only i d wonder if you would like to live under such conditions and for the record i donot feel sorry for the soldiers killed in izmir harbour before evacuating the city the greek forces burned it down so it serves them right as for being fooled by allied promises that too is your fault you did not come to anatolia just to enforce sevres but to take part in the plunder as well k burak ucer
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re lezgians astir in azerbaijan and daghestan hello shit face david i see that you are still around i dont want to see your shitty writings posted here man i told you you are getting itchy as your fucking country hey and dont give me that freedom of speach bullshit once more because your freedom has ended when you started writing things about my people and try to translate this ebenin donu butti kafa david bye anacim hade timucin kaan timucin georgia institute of technology atlanta georgia uucp decvax hplabs ncar purdue rutgers gatech prism gt a internet gt a prism gatech edu
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re deir yassin are you trying to say that there were no massacres in deir yassin or in sabra and shatila if so then let me tell you some good jokes there is not and was not any such thing like jewish killing in wwii palestinians just did what davidians did for fourty years and more in fact no one was killed in any war at any time or any place people die that is all no one gets killed maybe also vietamiese didn t die in vietnam war killed by american napalm they were just pyromaniacs and that s all maybe jews just liked gas chambers and no one forced them to get in there they may be thought it was like snifing cocaine no what do you think of this isn t it stupid to say so well it is as stupid as what you said next time you want to lie do it intelligently sincerely yours hassan
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brendan mckay clarifies the nazi racial theory only brendan mckay or maybe arf would come to the rescue of nazi racial theory is it distressing brendan the point is that any eugenic solution to the jewish problem as elias has proposed smacks of pure nazism the fact that elias proposal cast the entire problem as one of the abnormal presence of israeli society in the middle east and that he buried a slam against u s aid to israel in the midst of his even handed solution of the jewish question made it obvious what he had in mind disolving the jewish polity that is a nazi doctrine rectification of the abnormal presence of the jewish people within a larger body politic whether your solution involves gas monetary incentives to the poor jews to marry out or as feisal husseini has said disolve the zionist entity by forcing it to engage the normal surrounding arab culture you are engaged in a nazi project just as obvious is your statement i will not comment on the value or lack of value of elias s proposal still striking the glancing blow right brendan you could easily see where he was going but you will not comment so you are complicitous what is your fascination with nazi racial theory anyway chris metcalfe someone else in article apr cs rit edu bdm cs rit edu brendan d mckay writes a unconventional proposal for peace in the middle east by elias davidsson the emergence of a considerable number of mixed marriages in israel palestine all of whom would have relatives on both sides of the divide would make the conflict lose its ethnical and unsoluble core and strengthen the emergence of a truly civil society the existence of a strong mixed stock of people would also help the integration of israeli society into the sounds just like a racial theory that hitler outlined in mein kampf someone else said something similar i will not comment on the value or lack of value of elias s proposal i just want to say that it is very distressing that at least two people here are profoundly ignorant of nazi racial doctrine they were not like elias s idea they were more like the opposite nazis believed in racial purity not racial assimilation an instructive example is the nazi attitude to gypsies according to nazi theoreticians gypsies were an aryan race they were persecuted and in huge numbers murdered because most european gypies were considered not pure gypsies but mongrels formed from the pure gypsy race and other undesirable races this was the key difference between the theoretical approach to jews and gypsies by the way it is also true that towards the end of wwii even the purist gypsies were hunted down as the theory was forgotten brendan email bdm cs anu edu au
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re legality of the jewish purchase while one may question the motives of the arabs who sold land to jews often while publicly criticizing the sale of land to jews it was the jews and not the arabs who were taken advantage of as the prices the jews paid for barren land was many times the price fertile land was being sold for in the united states at the same time alan h stein astein israel nysernet org
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re anti zionism is racism b ha b ha musicb mcgill ca writes in re syria s expansion the author writes that the un thought zionism was racism and that they were wrong they were correct the first time zionism is racism and thankfully the mcgill daily the student newspaper at mcgill was proud enough to print an article saying so if you want a copy send me mail steve just felt it was important to add four letters that steve left out of his subject header alan h stein astein israel nysernet org
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re turkey cyprus bosnia serbia greece armenia azeris in article finaid auvm american edu finaid auvm american edu writes message id apr news uiowa edu mr napoleon responds there were a couple millions of greeks living in asia minor until someone had to protect them if not us who is that so or you were taking advantage of weakness of ottoman empire to grab some land as soon as you got green lights from allied forces you occupied izmir and other cities in western turkey you killed and raped millions people without any reason of course you paid the price mustafa kemal ataturk made you swim in aegean sea but not far enough your aggressions thru turkey at anytime in the past did not get you any reward and shall not get you anywhere don t swallow propaganda as truth sir british promised to venizelos greek pm that mainly greek populated areas of the ottomans will be given to greece if he will agree to drag greece in the side of the british during the wwi because the greek king was progerman the british succeeded by bombarding athens killing quite a few forcing abdication of the king division of greece into two separate states north south and finally laying the ground for the most disasterous division between greeks for our century so don t feel bitter that the allies gave any green light because they liked us anyway the british succeed to establish venizelos war starts at a second front against the germans in the south while they were fighting the war in the east against the russians and finally the wwii came in an end after that the british and french forgot immediately their promises as usually even though publicly they say that they support the greek cause practically they not only do nothing but instead using some usual reasoning and other crap rhetoric as a pretext they gradually backup kemal who had given now to the british water and bread that he will dissolve the superethnic ottoman and contract it into a small ethnic state the main drive behind this british switch was the plan to keep a muslim state in the region as buffer against a russian expansion into warm water facilities the greek empire being an orthodox christian state was too prone to become russian client out of this intrigue the current state of affairs was established on our lands while venizelos and kemal were promoted as true giants by the british since they worked to realize their goals in the region under the same plan currently greece and turkey are recipients of big military funds from the us both they are functioning as anti russian buffers while simultaneously both remain good clients of state dept because otherwise the use of terror of changing the balance of power in the aegean will be used under the same exact rational you should see the cyprus problem gr ps i don t make any anti whatever rhetoric this is the situation in our region and needs to be said the previously mentioned powers are not anything special they are fucntioning the same way which anyone else functions all throughout history so i don t selectively single them out just they are relevant to our current afairs
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armenia says it could shoot down turkish planes armenia says it could shoot down turkish planes by david ljunggren moscow april reuter armenia accused turkey on friday of flying weapons x and troops across armenian airspace to azerbaijan and strongly hinted it might try to shoot the planes down local journalists in yerevan said separately itar tass news agency said armenian forces had halted their latest offensive which has swallowed up one tenth of azerbaijan and sent tensions in the transcaucasian region soaring the journalists in the armenian capital quoted armen duliyan head of the armenian defence ministry press centre as saying ankara had been sending planes up to times a day to azerbaijan with arms and troops it looks as though the armenian leadership will have to warn turkey about the impermissibility of such actions the journalists quoted duliyan as saying if such steps are pursued in the future we will have recourse to appropriate measures we have all the necessary means including modern anti aircraft units turkey which shares a border with armenia has supported azerbaijan in the conflict over the mainly armenian populated nagorno karabakh region in which more than people have been killed since fighting erupted in the turkish foreign ministry said on friday it had so far sent one plane to azerbaijan containing humanitarian aid a turkish foreign ministry spokesman on thursday would not comment directly on a report by hurriyet newspaper that a first consignment of rockets rocket launchers ammunition and light weapons had arrived in azerbaijan from turkey duliyan said turkey had been sending up to trucks a day carrying troops and arms to the bordering azeri autonomous territory of nakhichevan from where they were flown across armenian airspace to the azeri capital baku all the responsibility for possible consequences will be borne by the country which is affording military assistance over our airspace he said armenia denies any formal role in the conflict saying that the troops involved in the fighting are from the enclave itself tass said the karabakh forces decided on friday to suspend their offensive along the entire armenian azerbaijani front the karabakh authorities are reportedly ready to give independent inspectors a chance to see for themselves on the spot that the enclave s leadership is striving to achieve a ceasefire the agency said armenian president levon ter petrosyan called for a two stage ceasefire in karabakh when he arrived in the belarus capital minsk on friday for a summit of commonwealth leaders the first stage of the settlement should involve a ceasefire and securing the protection of the karabakh population tass quoted him as saying at least ceasefires have been brokered in the conflict but all have collapsed the second stage should involve discussing and finding a solution to the legal issues that is a clarification of the status of nagorno karabakh he said the republic declared full independence last year but the move has not been recognised by any other country armenia insists that a separate karabakh delegation should take part in future peace talks something azerbaijan rejects local news agencies in baku said on friday that interior minister iskender gamidov a fiery nationalist and hardliner in the territorial dispute with armenia had resigned turan news agency said he quit on thursday and had cleared his office khabar servis agency said he would be replaced by the military commandant of baku police major general abdullah allakhverdiyev there was no official confirmation david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org how do we explain turkish troops on s d p a center for regional studies the armenian border when we can t p o box even explain cambridge ma turkish mp march
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armenia says it could shoot down turkish planes dear friends i am a graduate student in education at the university of tennessee as part of the requirements for a research class in music education i designed a questionnaire to colect data for my research project the study intends to determine which techniques if any have been used to teach music for the deaf if you have any experience in music education for the deaf and would like to help me with this project your help would be very much appreciated if you also want to exchange some ideas about the subject matter feel yourself welcome i have been working in this area for a while in brazil by the way i am brazilian and also in us and i am very pleased with the results i hope that this inquiry will not cause too many inconveniences thank you for or time and consideration questionnaire teaching music for deaf children name address e mail employing institution years of experience grade level s educational background bachelor masters doctorate professional field special educ music educ other if you checked other please indicate your major some school systems require music to be taught to deaf children other school systems have not thought of the possibility to teach music for children with hearing limitations the following questionnaire was designed to find out how teachers face the issue of teaching or not teaching music for the deaf also a part of this study is to determine teachers attitudes towards music programs for deaf children directions read the following questions and circle the number that best describes your attitude towards music for deaf children left column and circle the appropriate yes no or not applicable whether you do the task right column sd strongly disagree y yes dis disagree n no neu neutral n a not applicable ag agree sa strongly agree sd dis neu ag sa competencies y n n a deaf children can be educated in y n n a music deaf children should have regular y n n a music classes a special music teacher must posses y n n a an appropriate training in a variety of communication methods to use with deaf children in preparing the lessons the teacher y n n a must keep in mind that deaf children may present special needs in order to participate in musical activities deaf and normal hearing children y n n a should have music classes together of a succesful music experience y n n a by a deaf child depends upon the teacher s creativity and commitment with the subject matter deaf children can learn to appreciate y n n a music but they will never be a musician or a performer deaf children are not able to y n n a discriminate and recognize sounds deaf children can not distinguish y n n a among loud and soft sounds deaf children can never match the y n n a music in their head to a note on a musical instrument the most appropriate material to y n n a start music classes for the deaf would be the folk songs said he would be replaced by the military commandant of baku police major general abdullah allakhverdiyev there was no official confirmation david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org how do we explain turkish troops on s d p a center for regional studies the armenian border when we can t p o box even explain cambridge ma turkish mp march
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the republic of turkey sold tones of armenian bones in yarn of cargo of human bones copyright by the new york times company special cable to the new york times paris dec marseilles is excited by a weird story of the arrival in that port of a ship flying the british flag and named zan carrying a mysterious cargo of tons of human bones consigned to manufacturers there the bones are said to have been loaded at mudania on the sea of marmora and to be the remains of the victims of massacres in asia minor in view of the rumors circulating it is expected that an inquiry will be instigated reference new york times december page column bottom on the th commemorative anniversary of the turkish genocide of the armenians we remember those whose only crime was to be armenian in the shadow of an emerging turkish proto fascist state in their names we demand justice in april the turkish government began a systematically executed de population of the eastern anatolian homeland of the armenians through a genocidal extermination this genocide was to insure that turks exclusively ruled over the geographic area today called the republic of turkey the result million murdered billion dollars of armenian property stolen and plundered this genocide ended nearly years of armenian civilization on those lands today the turkish government continues to scrape clean any vestige of a prior armenian existence on those lands today s turkish governmental policy is to re write the history of the era to manufacture distortion and generate excuses for their genocide of the armenian people in the face of refutation ad nauseam the turkish historical society and cronies shamelessly continue to deny that any such genocide occurred this policy merely demonstrates that in the modern era genocide is an effective state policy when it remains un redressed and un punished a crime unpunished is a crime encouraged adolf hitler took this cue less than years after the successful genocide of the armenians turkey claims there was no systematic deportation of armenians yet armenians were removed from every city town and village in the whole of turkey armenians who resisted deportation and massacre are referred to as rebels turkey claims there was no genocide of the armenians yet turkish population figures today show zero armenians in eastern turkey the armenian homeland turkey claims armenians were always a small minority yet turkey claims armenians were a threat in a final insult to the victims the republic of turkey sold the bones of approximately murdered armenians for profit to europe today the turkish government is enjoying the fruits of that genocide the success of this genocide is hangs over the heads of turkey s kurdish population the armenians demand recognition reparation return of armenian land and property lost as a result of this genocide armenians demand justice ermeniler adalet istiyor david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org armenia has not learned a lesson in s d p a center for regional studies anatolia and has forgotten the p o box punishment inflicted on it cambridge ma late turkish president turgut ozal
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re armenia says it could shoot down turkish planes henrik the student of regional killings alias davidian not the davidian religios sect writes greater armenia would stretch from karabakh to the black sea to the mediterranean so if you use the term greater armenia use it with care finally you said what you dream about mediterranean that was new the area will be greater after some years like your holocaust numbers it has always been up to the azeris to end their announced winning of karabakh by removing the armenians when the president of azerbaijan elchibey came to power last year he announced he would be be swimming in lake sevan in armeniaxn by july is t july in usa now here in sweden it s april and still cold or have you changed your calendar well he was wrong if elchibey is going to shell the armenians of karabakh from aghdam his people will pay the price if elchibey is going to shell karabakh from fizuli his people will pay the price if elchibey thinks he can get away with bombing armenia from the hills of kelbajar his people will pay the price nothing of the mentioned is true but let say it s true shall the azeri women and children going to pay the price with being raped killed and tortured by the armenians have you hearded something called geneva convention you facist ohhh i forgot this is how armenians fight nobody has forgot you killings rapings and torture against the kurds and turks once upon a time and anyway this kurd refugee story as have other stories are simple fabrications sourced in baku modified in ankara other examples of this are armenia has no border with iran and the ridiculous story of the intercepting of armenian military conversations as appeared in the new york times supposedly translated by somebody unknown from armenian into azeri turkish submitted by an unnamed special correspondent to the ny times from baku real accurate ohhhh so swedish redcross workers do lie they too what ever you say regional killer if you don t like the person then shoot him that s your policy l he search turkish planes you don t know what you are talking about he since it s content is announced to be weapons i i well big mouth ozal said military weapons are being provided to azerbaijan i from turkey yet demirel and others say no no wonder you are so confused i i i confused i you facist when you delete text don t change it i wrote i i search turkish planes you don t know what you are talking about i turkey s government has announced that it s giving weapons i to azerbadjan since armenia started to attack azerbadjan it self not the karabag province so why search a plane for weapons since it s content is announced to be weapons if there is one that s confused then that s you we have the right and we do to give weapons to the azeris since armenians started the fight in azerbadjan you are correct all turkish planes should be simply shot down nice slow moving air transports shoot down with what armenian bread and butter or the arms and personel of the russian army hilmi eren stockholm university
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re zionism is racism in article apr vm mcgill ca b ha b ha musicb mcgill ca writes in re syria s expansion the author writes that the un thought zionism was racism and that they were wrong they were correct the first time zionism is racism and thankfully the mcgill daily the student newspaper at mcgill was proud enough to print an article saying so if you want a copy send me mail steve was the article about zionism or about something else the majority of people i heard emitting this ignorant statement do not really know what zionism is they have just associated it with what they think they know about the political situation in the middle east so steve lets here what is zionism michael
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re news briefs from kh mack posted i know nothing about statistics but what significance does the relatively small population growth rate have where the sampling period is so small at the end of this is not small a per cent annual population growth rate implies a doubling in approx years can you imagine that most people seem not able to and that is why so many deny that this problem exists for me most especially in the industrialised countries low growth rates but large environmental impact iran s high growth rate threatens things like accelerated desertification due to intensive agriculture deforestation and water table drop similar to what is going on in california this year s rain won t save you in stanford this is probably more to blame than the current government s incompetence for dropping living standards in iran gruss dr bruce scott the deadliest bullshit is max planck institut fuer plasmaphysik odorless and transparent bds at spl n aug ipp garching mpg de w gibson
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accounts of anti armenian human right violations in azerbaijan accounts of anti armenian human right violations in azerbaijan prelude to current events in nagorno karabakh right we should slaughter the armenians and there s no need to be afraid all of moscow is behind us i even heard that all moscow is behind us well i watched and listened in and realized that this was no joke deposition of yuri vagarshakovich musaelian born line electrician sumgait streetcar and trolleybus administration resident at building apartment block narimanov street sumgait azerbaijan i spent almost all of february doing overhaul the th was a short day at work we worked until eleven or eleven thirty and left for home i decided to go for a short walk i went to primorsky park i walked past the eternal flame and saw a group of about to people standing there when i had walked another to yards i heard the screech of automobile brakes behind me i turned my head toward the sound it was a light blue gaz volga i see that the people who were standing there have gone over to the car a man and a woman get out the man is expensively dressed in a suit and the woman has a raincoat on she doesn t have anything on her head and her hair is let down sightly reddish hair a heavy set woman they re to years old they get something out of the trunk the people start to help them i become curious just what are they pulling out of there when i got up close i heard them turn something on i didn t see what it was but it was probably a tape recorder they put it on the ground near the eternal flame honoring the baku commissars and formed a tight circle around it i ask what s going on someone tells me come listen well they were azerbaijanis i had asked in azerbaijani i hear appeals brother muslims our time has come and something else along that line i didn t understand what it was all about i walked around the group trying to get a look at the owner of the tape recorder but the circle drew in tighter new people started coming from various directions five here seven there and the comments started right we should slaughter the armenians and there s no need to be afraid all of moscow is behind us i even heard that all moscow is behind us well i watched and listened in and realized that this was no joke i quietly left and went home now before that at work i had heard that something was going on in karabagh that there were demonstrations there well people were saying all kinds of things but i didn t have any idea what was really going on my wife and son were at home but my daughter was at my aunt s house in baku i didn t say anything to my wife we sat and drank tea sometime around two o clock right behind our house suddenly there is noise whistling and shouting i looked out the window and saw a crowd the crowd is moving slowly like they show on tv when blacks in south africa are striking or having a demonstration and move slowly my wife asks what s going on out there i say i don t know i put on some outdoor clothes and went out to find out what it was all about in the crowd people are shouting down with the armenians and death to the armenians i waited for the entire crowd to pass at first they went down narimanov street on the side with the sk club and the city party committee then they turned and went against the traffic it s one way there down the street of the baku commissars toward the streetcar line i went home and told my wife there was a demonstration going on in fact i thought that we were having the same kind of demonstrations that they had had in yerevan and in karabagh aside from the things they were shouting i was surprised that there were only young people in the crowd and they were minors under draft age my wife and son wanted to go upstairs to visit a friend but i was kind of uneasy and said no let s stay at home instead an hour went by or maybe an hour and a half well i wasn t keeping track of the time i can t say exactly how long it was i look and see another crowd on narimanov but now on the side with the microdistricts the bazaar and the rossiya movie theater i put outside clothes on and went out again there s noise an uproar outside and the crowd has grown there are more people and whereas the first time there were individual shouts this time they are more focused more aggressive no i think something s wrong here this isn t any demonstration they would run stop then walk quickly and make sharp dashes and then run again i was walking along the sidewalk and they were in the street i followed them i was thinking i d just watch and see who knew where this was leading we came out on lenin square at the square the sk club is on one side and the city party committee is on the other i went toward the square and heard noise and shouting as though the whole town had turned out there was some sort of a rally going on i go closer and hear exclamations appeals i heard both anti armenian and anti soviet appeals we don t need perestroika we want to go on living like we have been now what did they mean by living like we have been the azerbaijanis work like everyone else but too many people live at the expense of the government and at the expense of others speculation theft and cheating go on all the time and not just in azerbaijan everywhere in all the republics but i ve never seen it anywhere else like i have in azerbaijan now at this rally someone says that they should go around to the armenians apartments and drive them out beat them and drive them out true i didn t hear them say kill them over the microphone i only heard beat them and drive them out i stayed at the square a few minutes longer first one then another are going up onto the stage and no one tries to stop the crowd off to the side of the crowd there were small groups of three or four people and i think they were mvd ministry of internal affairs or state security kgb there were also uniformed policemen there but i didn t see any of them try to pacify the crowd new people kept coming up onto the stage well i had finally decided that this could end badly this was no demonstration and i had to protect my family i left the square to return home and suddenly noticed a truck it was next to the city party committee on narimanov street it stood next to the tai lor s shop there a low truck and it had low wooden panels i see that some thing is being unloaded crates of some sort i decided to go look because after all those appeals i was apprehensive and thought there might be weapons in there they pulled the crates out onto the square not toward the city party committee but toward the sk club and when i went right up to them i saw that they were cases of vodka there were two people handing down the cases from the bed of the truck and on the ground there were many people to they were handing them down from the truck and each case was carried off by two people two people one case of vodka and there was a man standing right next to the truck and he was handing out roundish black lumps maybe about the size of a fist maybe a little bigger or smaller it was anasha when i passed next to that person he stood with his side to me there was about a yard and a half between us and two people were standing near him he has a package in his hand and he s pulling out anasha and handing it out i have never smoked it myself once i tried it for fun but i ve seen a lot of people smoke it i ve seen it many times and i know what it is i strolled around and no one asked me who i was or what i was doing there before i got to the glass bazaar i heard more howling more warlike shouting i turned around and saw them running well i ll just keep on going like i am i thought when they caught up with me i saw that they were carrying flags and i recognized the person who was carrying the flag on my side of the street he s a young guy or years old he was carrying a red flag which had ermeni oryum written on it in azerbaijani that means death to armenians that guy used to live off the same courtyard as us i don t really know what his name is but i know his father very well his father s name is rafik he used to be a cook and then became head chef he used to have a dark blue zhiguli van then he sold it and now he has a white zhiguli his family as i said lived on the same courtyard as we did our building was on narimanov street and theirs was on the street of the baku commissars their apartment was in the far entryway on the fifth floor the door on the left now rafik s little brother lives there and he rafik i heard got a new apartment either in the forth or eighth microdistrict in a word his son was carrying a flag that said death to armenians i was surprised because before this i had gotten the impression that all of this nonsense was being done not by people from sumgait but by azerbaijanis from agdam and kafan well anyway i went home my wife was upset i told her it s ok it ll pass they re young kids they ve just gotten all whooped up naturally i didn t want her to get overly upset after a while a new surge of crowd went by and this time they were breaking glass i could hear it breaking but i couldn t see where well i think here we go the machine s in motion they weren t handing out that vodka and anasha for nothing i didn t see people drinking and smoking on the spot but they certainly hadn t unloaded the vodka and hashish to put in a store window so the thought flashed through my head that the machine was running no one would stop them now they weren t even trying although i ll say it again the police were there i saw them and it s not just that the police weren t breaking them up they were joking with them they were having a good time true at the time i couldn t even imagine that under our government our much vaunted leadership and i m not afraid to say these words so many people died so many women were abused and how many abominations there were i couldn t imagine that under our much vaunted authorities and if i were to be specific i would say under the much touted authorities in our city of sumgait i couldn t imagine that such things could take place when they started breaking glass i told my wife and son let s go upstairs we went to our neighbors the grigorians on the fourth floor and in the evening when those crowds started going past again i went outside once more i stopped at the corner a place called that right next to the bazaar i look and see a crowd on the run and there a few yards from the entrance to the bazaar are three respectable looking men of around say years old the crowd was running and one of the three waved with his arm and pointed toward the bazaar and then the whole crowd as though it were one person wheeled and raced toward the bazaar and not a soul went past those three as though it were off limits well everything got all churned up there was more noise and the glass was flying again we spent the night at the neighbors my apartment was on the first floor there was really no way to defend yourself there in the morning i went out to buy bread and to see what was happening in town on the way i saw someone hunched up still i never found out who it was or what happened to him there were to people standing near him i got the bread and on my way back they had gathered around the person who was lying there hunched up sort of enclosing him because of the way they were standing you couldn t even see him that was on the morning of february everyone knows the rest may yerevan reference the sumgait tragedy pogroms against armenians in soviet azerbaijan volume i eyewitness accounts edited by samuel shahmuradian forward by yelena bonner published by aristide d caratzas ny pages david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org how do we explain turkish troops on s d p a center for regional studies the armenian border when we can t p o box even explain cambridge ma turkish mp march
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u s wants iran to end terrorism links washington upi a senior state department official on tuesday ruled out any softening of u s attitudes toward iraq but said relations with iran s islamic regime could improve substantially if that government disassociates itself from international terrorism despite the name calling and the harsh rhetoric from across the gulf despite all this we do not take a position of permanent hostility towards the islamic republic of iran david mack deputy assistant secretary for near eastern affairs said the primary u s objection is iran s international behaviour which includes extending support of violence to disrupt the arab israeli peace process and its rapid build up of dangerous weapons mack said iran could contribute to regional stability and peace but first it is to end the behaviour which threatens this area mack spoke at the u s gcc business conference aimed at promoting gulf american trade he said the middle east will be an item very high on the agenda of the u s administration the importance of the gulf is underlined by secretary of state warren christoper s visit last year to saudi arabia and kuwait before anywhere else in the world mack said he added that the u s has no long term plan to station troops in the gulf mack also insisted that the clinton administration will continue to pressure iraq to comply with all the u n security resolutions as long as iraq is ruled by saddam hussein we do not expect compliance mack told delegates copyright by upi newsbytes
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final solution for gaza from center for policy research cpr subject final solution for gaza final solution for the gaza ghetto while israeli jews fete the uprising of the warsaw ghetto they repress by violent means the uprising of the gaza ghetto and attempt to starve the gazans the gaza strip this tiny area of land with the highest population density in the world has been cut off from the world for weeks the israeli occupier has decided to punish the whole population of gaza some people by denying them the right to leave the strip and seek work in israel while polish non jews risked their lives to save jews from the ghetto no israeli jew is known to have risked his life to help the gazan resistance the only help given to gazans by israeli jews only dozens of people is humanitarian assistance the right of the gazan population to resist occupation is recognized in international law and by any person with a sense of justice a population denied basic human rights is entitled to rise up against its tormentors as is known the israeli regime is considering gazans unworthy of israeli citizenship and equal rights in israel although they are considered worthy to do the dirty work in israeli hotels shops and fields many gazans are born in towns and villages located in israel they may not live there for these areas are reserved for the master race the nazi regime accorded to the residents of the warsaw ghetto the right to self administration they selected jews to pacify the occupied population and preventing any form of resistance some jewish collaborators were killed israel also wishes to rule over gaza through arab collaborators as israel denies gazans the only two options which are compatible with basic human rights and international law that of becoming israeli citizens with full rights or respecting their right for self determination it must be concluded that the israeli jewish society does not consider gazans full human beings this attitude is consistent with the attitude of the nazis towards jews the current policies by the israeli government of cutting off gaza are consistent with the wish publicly expressed by prime mininister yitzhak rabin that gaza sink into the sea one is led to ask oneself whether israeli leaders entertain still more sinister goals towards the gazans whether they have some final solution up their sleeve i urge all those who have slight human compassion to do whatever they can to help the gazans regain their full human civil and political rights to which they are entitled as human beings elias davidsson iceland from elias ismennt is fri apr received from isgate is by igc apc org revision id aa fri apr pdt received from rvik ismennt is by isgate is c isnet fri apr gmt received by rvik ismennt is isnet fri apr gmt from elias ismennt is elias davidsson message id aa rvik ismennt is subject no subject file transmission to cpr igc org date fri apr gmt x charset ascii x char esc status ro final solution for the gaza ghetto while israeli jews fete the uprising of the warsaw ghetto they repress by violent means the uprising of the gaza ghetto and attempt to starve the gazans the gaza strip this tiny area of land with the highest population density in the world has been cut off from the world for weeks the israeli occupier has decided to punish the whole population of gaza some people by denying them the right to leave the strip and seek work in israel while polish non jews risked their lives to save jews from the ghetto no israeli jew is known to have risked his life to help the gazan resistance the only help given to gazans by israeli jews only dozens of people is humanitarian assistance the right of the gazan population to resist occupation is recognized in international law and by any person with a sense of justice a population denied basic human rights is entitled to rise up against its tormentors as is known the israeli regime is considering gazans unworthy of israeli citizenship and equal rights in israel although they are considered worthy to do the dirty work in israeli hotels shops and fields many gazans are born in towns and villages located in israel they may not live there for these areas are reserved for the master race the nazi regime accorded to the residents of the warsaw ghetto the right to self administration they selected jews to pacify the occupied population and preventing any form of resistance some jewish collaborators were killed israel also wishes to rule over gaza through arab collaborators as israel denies gazans the only two options which are compatible with basic human rights and international law that of becoming israeli citizens with full rights or respecting their right for self determination it must be concluded that the israeli jewish society does not consider gazans full human beings this attitude is consistent with the attitude of the nazis towards jews the current policies by the israeli government of cutting off gaza are consistent with the wish publicly expressed by prime mininister yitzhak rabin that gaza sink into the sea one is led to ask oneself whether israeli leaders entertain still more sinister goals towards the gazans whether they have some final solution up their sleeve i urge all those who have slight human compassion to do whatever they can to help the gazans regain their full human civil and political rights to which they are entitled as human beings elias davidsson iceland
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symbiotics zionism antisemitism from center for policy research cpr subject symbiotics zionism antisemitism zionism and the holocaust by haim bresheeth the first point to note regarding the appropriation of the history of the holocaust by zionist propaganda is that zionism without anti semitism is impossible zionism agrees with the basic tenet of anti semitism namely that jews cannot live with non jews the history and roots of the holocaust go back a long way while the industru of death and destruction did not operate before its roots were firmly placed in the th century jewish aspirations for emancipation emerged out of the national struggles in europe when the hopes for liberation through bourgeois democratic change were dashed other alternatives for improving the lot of the jews of europe achieved prominence the socialist bund a mass movement with enormous following had to contend with opposition from a new and small almost insignificant opponent the political zionists in outline these two offered diametrically opposed options for jews in europe while the bund was suggesting joining forces with the rest of europe s workers the zionists were proposing a new programme aimed at ridding europe of its jews by setting up some form of a jewish state historically nothing is inevitable all depends on the balance of forces involved in the struggle history can be seen as an option tree every time a certain option is chosen other routes become barred because of that choice movement backwards to the point before that choice was made is impossible while zionism as an option was taken by many young jews it remained a minority position until the first days of the rd reich the zionist federation of germany zvfd an organisation representing a tiny minority of german jews was selected by the nazis as the body to represent the jews of the reich its was the only flag of an interantional organisation allowed to fly in berlin and this was the only international organisation allowed to operate during this period from a marginal position the leaders of the zionist federation were propelled to a prominence and centrality that surprised even them all of a sudden they attained political power power based not on representation but from being selected as the choice of the nazi regime for dealing with the the jewish problem their position in negotiating with the nazis agreements that affected the lives of many tens of thousands of the jews in germany transformed them from a utopian marginal organisation in germany and some other countries in europe into a real option to be considered by german jews the best example of this was the transfer agreement of immediately after the nazi takeover in jews all over the world supported or were organising a world wide boycott of german goods this campaign hurt the nazi regime and the german authorities searched frantically for a way disabling the boycott it was clear that if jews and jewish organisations were to pull out the campaign would collapse this problem was solved by the zvfd a letter sent to the nazi party as early as june outlined the degree of agreement that existed between the two organisations on the question of race nation and the nature of the jewish problem and it offered to collaborate with the new regime the realisation of zionism could only be hurt by resentment of jews abroad against the german development boycott propaganda such as is currently being carried out against germany in many ways is in essence unzionist because zionism wants not to do battle but to convince and build in their eagerness to gain credence and the backing of the new regime the zionist organisation managed to undermine the boycott the main public act was the signature of the transfer agreement with the nazi authorities during the zionist congress of in essence the agreement was designed to get germany s jews out of the country and into mandate palestine it provided a possibility for jews to take a sizeable part of their property out of the country through a transfer of german goods to palestine this right was denied to jews leaving to any other destination the zionist organisation was the acting agent through its financial organisations this agreement operated on a number of fronts helping jews to leave the country breaking the ring of the boycott exporting german goods in large quantities to palestine and last but not least enabling the regime to be seen as humane and reasonable even towards its avowed enemies the jews after all they argued the jews do not belong in europe and now the jews come and agree with them after news of the agreement broke the boycott was doomed if the zionist organization found it possible and necessary to deal with the nazis and import their goods who could argue for a boycott this was not the first time that the interests of both movements were presented to the german public as complementary baron von mildenstein the first head of the jewish department of the ss later followed by eichmann was invited to travel to palestine this he did in early in the company of a zionist leader kurt tuchler having spent six months in palestine he wrote a series of favourable articles in der sturmer describing the new jew of zionism a jew nazis could accept and understand this little known episode established quite clearly the relationship during the early days of nazism between the new regime and the zvfd a relationship that was echoed later in a number of key instances even after the nature of the final solution became clear in many cases this meant a silencing of reports about the horrors of the exterminations a book concentrating on this aspect of the zionist reaction to the holocaust is post ugandan zionism in the crucible of the holocaust by s b beth zvi in the case of the kastner episode around which jim allen s play perdition is based even the normal excuse of lack of knowledge of the real nature of events does not exist it occured near the end of the war the ussr had advanced almost up to germany italy and the african bases had been lost the nazis were on the run with a number of key countries such as rumania leaving the axis a second front was a matter of months away as the western allies prepared their forces in the midst of all this we find eichmann the master bureaucrat of industrial murder setting up his hz in occupied budapest after the german takeover of the country in april his first act was to have a conference with the jewish leadership and to appoint zionist federation members headed by kastner as the agent and clearing house for all jews and their relationship with the ss and the nazr authorities why they did this is not difficult to see as opposed to poland where its three and a half million jews lived in ghettoes and were visibly different from the rest of the polish population the hungarian jews were an integrated part of the community the middle class was mainly jewish the jews were mainly middle class they enjoyed freedom of travel served in the hungarian fascist army in fronline units as officers and soldiers their names were hungarian how was eichmann to find them if they were to be exterminated the task was not easy there were a million jews in hungary most of them resident the rest being refugees from other countries many had heard about the fate of jews elsewhere and were unlikely to believe any statements by nazi officials like elsewhere the only people who had the information and the ear of the frightened jewish population were the judenrat in this case the judenrat comprsied mainly the zionist federation members without their help the ss with officers and less than men plus a few hundred hungarian police could not have collected and controlled a million jews when they did not even know their whereabouts kastner and the others were left under no illusions eichmann told joel brand one of the members of kastner s committee that he intended to send all hungary s jews to auschwitz before he even started the expulsions he told them clearly that all these jews will die a day unless certain conditions were met the committee faced a simple choice to tell the jews of hungary about their fate with neutral rumania where many could escape being in most cases a few hours away or to collaborate with the nazis by assisting in the concentration process what would not have been believed when coming from the ss sounded quite plausible when coming from the mouths of the zionist leadership thus it is that most of the hungarian jews went quietly to their death assured by their leadership that they were to be sent to work camps to be sure there are thirty pieces of silver in this narrative of destruction the trains of prominents which eichmann promised to kastner a promise he kept to the last detail for eichmann it was a bargain allowing jews to survive as the price paid for the silent collaboration over the death of almost a million jews there was no way in which the jews of hungary could even be located not to say murdered without the full collaboration of kastner and his few friends no doubt the ss would hunt a few jews here and there but the scale of the operation would have been miniscule compared to the half million who died in auschwitz it is important to realise that kastner was not an aberration like say rumkovsky in lodz kastner acted as a result of his strongly held zionist convictions his actions were a logical outcome of earlier positions this is instanced when he exposed to the gestapo the existence of a british cell of saboteurs palgi and senesh and persuaded them to give themselves up so as not to disrupt his operations at no point during his trial or elsewhere did kastner deny that he knew exactly what was to happen to those jews to conclude the role played by zionists in this period was connected to another role they could and should have played that of alarming the whole world to what was happening in europe they had the information but politically it was contrary to their priorities the priorities were and still are quite simple all that furthers the zionist enterprise in palestine is followed whatever the price the lives of individuals jews and non jews are secondary if this process requires dealing with fascists nazis and other assorted dictatorial regimes across the world so be it
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hebrew labor racist connotations from center for policy research cpr subject hebrew labor racist connotations avoda ivrit hebrew labor hebrew labor is a concept which has served the zionist movement for a long time it has a double barreled message the new jew must learn to do physical labor i e working the land the land in this country must pass into jewish hands i e to the same new jew who has learned to work it both aspects of the two pronged concept of hebrew labor have racist connotations on the one hand the diaspora jew s lack of training in physical labor is a myth shared by zionists and antisemites on the other hand its meaning in practice has been the displacement of the arab farmer from the source of his livelihood the occupation and the cheap palestinian labor which streamed from the occupied territories to the factories orchards and hot houses of israel relegated the myth of hebrew labor to the history books and nostalgic memories of the zionist movement it has blossomed forth anew however as the government s answer to problems caused by the closure of the territories today too this concept has two functions to give a progressive look to the closing of the palestinian population or in the words of environment minister yossi sarid i have no tears for those who get rich off of cheap labor to furnish an answer to the unemployed israeli who complains of being obliged to work for wages that are lower than the unemployment insurance he receives the israeli government is considering plans to import labor from the far east to replace native people palestinians who work in their own country thus creating conflicting interests between two ethnical communities and ruling over them
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more on adl spying case los angeles times tuesday april p a new details of extensive adl spy operation emerge inquiry transcripts reveal nearly years of espionage by a man who infiltrated political groups by richard c paddock times staff writer san francisco to the outside world roy bullock was a small time art dealer who operated from his house in the castro district in reality he was an undercover spy who picked through garbage and amassed secret files for the anti defamation league for nearly years his code name at the prominent jewish organization was cal and he was so successful at infiltrating political groups that he was once chosen to head an arab american delegation that visited rep nancy pelosi d san francisco in her washington d c office for a time cal tapped into the phone message system of the white aryan resistance to learn of hate crimes from police sources he obtained privileged personal information on at least people and he met surreptitiously with agents of the south african government to trade his knowledge for crisp new bills these are among the secrets that bullock and david gurvitz a former los angeles based operative divulged in extensive interviews with police and the fbi in a growing scandal over the nation wide intelligence network operated by the anti defamation league officials of the anti defamation league while denying any improper activity have said they will cooperate with the investigation they have refused to discuss bullock and gurvitz transcripts of the interviews among nearly pages of documents released by san francisco prosecutors last week offer new details of the private spy operation that authorities allege crossed the line into illegal territory at times the intelligence activities took on a cloak and dagger air with laundered payments shredded documents hotel rendezvous with foreign agents and code names like ironsides and flipper on one occasion gurvitz recounts he received a tip that a pro palestinian activist was about to board a plane bound for haifa israel although the anti defamation league publicly denies any ties to israel gurvitz phoned an israeli consular official to warn him shortly afterward another official called gurvitz back and debriefed him the court papers also added to the mystery of tom gerard a former cia agent and san francisco police officer accused of providing confidential material from police files to the anti defamation league gerard fled to the philippines last fall after he was interviewed by the fbi but left behind a briefcase in his police locker its contents included passports driver s licenses and identification cards in different names identification cards in his own name for four american embassies in central america and a collection of blank birth certificates army discharge papers and official stationery from various agencies also in the briefcase were extensive information on death squads a black hood apparently for use in interrogations and photos of blindfolded and chained men investigators suspect that gerard and other police sources gave the adl confidential driver s license or vehicle registration information on a vast number of people including as many as members of one target group the arab american anti discrimination committee each case of obtaining such data from a law enforcement officer would constitute a felony san francisco police inspector ron roth noted in an affidavit for a search warrant the anti defamation league a self described jewish defense and civil rights organization acknowledges it has long collected information on groups that are anti semitic extremist or racist the adl s fact finding division headed by irwinn suall in new york enjoys a reputation for thoroughness and has often shared its information with police agencies and journalists however evidence seized from bullock s computer shows he kept files on at least groups of all political stripes including the american civil liberties union earth island institute the united farm workers jews for jesus mother jones magazine the center for investigative reporting the bo gritz for president committee the asian law caucus and the aids activist group act up the computer files also included information on several members of congress including pelosi house armed services committee chairman ron dellums d berkeley and former republican rep pete mccloskey from the bay area in their statements bullock and gurvitz said the anti defamation league has collected information on political activists in the los angeles area for more than years they said they worked closely with three los angeles county sheriff s deputies who specialized in intelligence work a los angeles police department anti terrorism expert and a san diego county sheriff s department intelligence officer a spokesman for the los angeles sheriff s department said he knew nothing of any contact between the deputies and the adl the los angeles police department which earlier refused to cooperate with the investigation and the san diego sheriff s department declined comment bullock is one of the most intriguing characters in the spy drama although he is not jewish he began working undercover as a volunteer for the adl and the fbi in indiana in after reading a book about a man who infiltrated the communist party bullock moved to los angeles in and was given a paid position by the adl as an intelligence operative he told authorities in the mid s he moved to san francisco and continued his spy operations up and down the west coast to keep his identity secret his salary has always been funneled through beverly hills attorney bruce i hochman who has never missed a payment in more than years bullock said i was an investigator for the adl i investigated any and all anti democratic movements bullock said officially i m only a contract worker with bruce hochman that way the league would not be officially connected with me bullock said he became a master at infiltrating groups from communists to arab american to gay radicals to skinheads usually using his own name but once adopting the alias elmer fink i m one of a kind he told police in recent years however his adl affiliation has increasingly become known and at one point he was confronted by a skinhead armed with a shotgun who threatened to kill him in the mid s he helped san francisco police solve a bombing at a synagogue by combing through the trash of extremist cory phelps and matching handwriting with samples on a threatening letter obtained by police in part because of this investigation he became close friends with gerard who at the time was working in the san francisco police intelligence division bullock frequently searched through the garbage of target groups an fbi report noted how he investigated one palestinian group bullock would write reports based on what he found in the trash and would share the reports with gerard bullock also gave the trash to gerard for gerard to examine gerard would later return the trash to bullock from a wide range of sources bullock compiled files on individuals and more than political groups gerard whose files contained many identical entries kept files on people in bullock and gerard began selling some of their vast wealth of information to the south african government bullock tells of meetings secretly with south african agents at san francisco hotels and receiving envelopes filled with thousands of dollars in new bills bullock insists the information he sold consisted of data he culled only from public sources once he rewrote an innocuous item published by san francisco chronicle columnist herb caen about south african bishop desmond tutu and the wife of prominent attorney melvin belli and submitted it as his own work bullock said it was gerard who sold official police intelligence bullock said he split about from the south african government evenly with gerard telling him at one point i may be gay but i m a straight arrow in his interviews with the police and fbi bullock talked freely about engaging in certain activities that prosecutors say would appear to violate the law for example bullock admitted to receiving driver s license records and criminal histories from gerard on about people a fraction of the confidential police data found in his computer and he said gerard gave him complete san francisco police department intelligence files on various nazi groups that were supposed to be destroyed under department policy bullock said he also received a confidential fbi report on the nation of islam that he later shredded at the anti defamation league s san francisco office bullock seemed proud of his operation eavesdrop in which he used a paid informant code named scumbag to help tap into a white aryan resistance phone message network listening to the messages left by members of the right wing group for a short time it was wonderful he told police in los angeles adl operative gurvitz was hired about four years ago as a fact finder to keep intelligence files and occasionally go undercover to the meetings of target groups among other things he told san francisco authorities the los angeles adl office kept a record of any arab american who had anti israel leanings or who wrote a letter to a newspaper expressing such sentiment gurvitz was recently forced to resign after an incident in which he attempted to misuse the adl intelligence network to seek revenge on a rival who got a job gurvitz wanted at the simon wiesenthal center for holocaust studies gurvitz got confidential police data on the rival and threatened to expose him as a jewish spy to a right wing hate group gurvitz has since begun cooperating with police and the fbi in the probe providing considerable information about the adl operation unlike bullock he has been assured he is not a subject of the investigation gurvitz declined through his father in los angeles to be interviewed by the times bullock s attorney said his client would not comment yigal arens usc isi tv made me do it arens isi edu
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kol israel broacasts does anyone have a schedule of kol israel broadcasts in different languages that could be posted or e mailed to me your assistance would be greatly appreciated gf
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re zionism is racism in apr ifi uio no michaelp ifi uio no michael schalom preminger wrote in article apr vm mcgill ca b ha b ha musicb mcgill ca writes in re syria s expansion the author writes that the un thought zionism was racism and that they were wrong they were correct the first time zionism is racism and thankfully the mcgill daily the student newspaper at mcgill was proud enough to print an article saying so if you want a copy send me mail was the article about zionism or about something else the majority of people i heard emitting this ignorant statement do not really know what zionism is they have just associated it with what they think they know about the political situation in the middle east so steve lets here what is zionism assuming that you mean hear you weren t listening he just told you zionism is racism this is a tautological statement d c sessions speaking for myself note new network address dcs witsend tnet com author and everything else of tmail dos mail news shell
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re armenia says it could shoot down turkish planes in article apr kpc com henrik quayle kpc com writes in article apr iastate edu oyalcin iastate edu onur yalcin writes oy deleted oy oy if you are really interested i can provide you with a number of references oy on the issue just send me email for that you think i am that stupid to ask you for references not i have many greek friends that i could ask for the info if i needed i have already read many articles and do not need your help boy how generous there is a very narrow margin of stupidity between accepting my references and those of the greeks and you just said you d rather do the latter that s fine with me i was sincere in my offer but this saves me the effort it doesn t take a half brained man to go to any library and check out a bunch of sources of decent objectivity just ask a good friend for help stay on these roads onur yalcin onur yalcin oyalcin iastate edu un punto in piu
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re nazi eugenic theories circulated by in article igc apc org center for policy research cpr igc apc org writes ps my proposal has nothing to do with nazi eugenics it has to do with the search for peace which would enable justice i don t consider that justice is done when non jews who fled or were expelled in are not permitted to return to their homeland how about jews who were expelled from their homelands in iraq syria jordan algeria etc don t they deserve justice too this can at best be called pragmatism a nice word for legitimizing the rule of the strong it can never be called justice why is your criticism always directed against israel but never against the arab states even when they are so much more guilty of the accusations you make is it because you now call yourself a palestinean and peace without justice will never be peace this is why the land for peace formula is so foolish land for land or peace for peace seems much more just except that it would cost the arabs something and so is not under consideration let s not forget that about half of israel s population are refugees from arab countries somehow their land now being occupied by arab states and their homes now being lived in by arab people are not included in any negotiations is this your prescription for peace it is my conviction that the situation in which a state through the law attempts to discourage mixed marriages as israel does is not normal such a state resembles more nazi germany and south africa than western democracies such as the united states in which jews are free to marry whom they wish and do so in the thousands again you ve somehow managed to overlook the fact that the arab states are much more restrictive on these points in fact the officially judenrein policies of almost all of the arab states makes them resemble nazi germany chillingly closely american jews enjoy this fact and would not love to live in a state termed christian state and to have their green cards stamped with a mark jew there are many states in which christians can live happily many which have official religions and christian majorities and christian based laws there are some dozen arab and islamic states there is only one jewish state do you have a problem with this is this one jewish state too many there are others who might agree with you you know i would ask those who are genuinely interested in an exchange of views and personal experiencces to refrain from emotional infantile outbursts which might leed readers to infer that jews who respect judaism are uncivilized such behaviour is not good for judaism have you just arrived on tpm recently again the supporters of the arab and islamic camps are frequently and massively guilty of emotional infantile outbursts which have weakened their positions dramatically somehow your criticisms are very one sided and simple minded p s how s the fund coming along jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president
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re ten questions about israel in article arens apr grl isi edu arens isi edu yigal arens writes at issue was not a trial behind closed doors but arrest trial and imprisonment in complete secrecy this was appraently attempted in the case of vanunu and failed it has happened before and there is reason to believe it still goes on the lengthy article you quote doesn t imply this it only states that it is somehow possible not that it is in any way likely this is akin to an article saying that it is possible that the usaf has several captured ufos without supporting the liklihood of such an assertion read this from ma ariv february possibly publication ban by baruch me iri all those involved in this matter politely refused my request one way or another look the subject is too delicate if i comment on it i will be implicitly admitting that it is true if i mention a specific case even hint at it i might be guilty of making public something which may legally not be published in other words they were telling a pesky reporter to keep guessing israel maintains this same attitude about nuclear weapons it may or may not have the us maintains the same attitude about the presence of nuclear weapons on specific naval craft by refusing to acknowledge the existence of such weapons on specific ships us warships have i believe become unwelcome in new zealand which has declared itself a nuclear free zone the state of israel has never officially admitted that for many years there have been in its prisons israeli citizens who were sentenced to long prison terms without either the fact of their arrest or the crimes of which they were accused ever being made public more precisely a court ordered publication ban was placed on the fact of their arrest and later on their imprisonment the usaf has never officially admitted to having any ufos either in israel of citizens are imprisoned without us the citizens of this country knowing anything about it not knowing anything about the fact that one person or another were tried and thrown in prison for security offenses in complete secrecy this is stated as a fact without supporting evidence it would ve been more convincing if your reporter had come up with just one name of someone who is sitting in jail lost to the world as he suggests maybe elvis or jfk somebody let s put it this way if israel has put people away without publicizing their arrests or the legal proceedings against them how has their disappearance been explained people have relatives friends and colleagues you know israel is not known as a place where people are made to vanish would you care to give us a list of people whose whereabouts are unknown people who are presumed to be imprisoned this whole conspiracy story isn t something that we ve come to associate with yigal arens before perhaps from now on we should jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president
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re the republic of turkey sold tones of armenian bones in dbd urartu sdpa org david davidian writes on the th commemorative anniversary of the turkish genocide of the armenians we remember those whose only crime was to be armenian in the shadow of an emerging turkish proto fascist state in their names we demand justice in april the turkish government began a systematically executed de population of the eastern anatolian homeland of the armenians through a genocidal extermination this genocide was to insure that turks exclusively ruled over the geographic area today called the republic of turkey the result million murdered billion dollars of armenian property stolen and plundered this genocide ended nearly years of armenian civilization on those lands today the turkish government continues to scrape clean any vestige of a prior armenian existence on those lands today s turkish governmental policy is to re write the history of the era to manufacture distortion and generate excuses for their genocide of the armenian people in the face of refutation ad nauseam the turkish historical society and cronies shamelessly continue to deny that any such genocide occurred this policy merely demonstrates that in the modern era genocide is an effective state policy when it remains un redressed and un punished a crime unpunished is a crime encouraged adolf hitler took this cue less than years after the successful genocide of the armenians armenians demand justice ermeniler adalet istiyor david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org armenia has not learned a lesson in s d p a center for regional studies anatolia and has forgotten the p o box punishment inflicted on it cambridge ma late turkish president turgut ozal to which i say hear hear motion seconded hovig hovig heghinian university of illinois at urbana champaign department of computer science
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re israel s expansion ii i understand how israel captured the teritory and feels that it is its right to annex it i can t fully understand why it has to deal with palestinians much the same way jews were treated before the holocaust the final solution by hitler what i totally don t get is why the u s has to subsidize the existance of such a thorough abuser of human rights just wondering
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re israeli terrorism well i m not sure about the story nad it did seem biased what i disagree with is your statement that the u s media is out to ruin israels reputation that is rediculous the u s media is the most pro israeli media in the world having lived in europe i realize that incidences such as the one described in the letter have occured the u s media as a whole seem to try to ignore them the u s is subsidizing israels existance and the europeans are not at least not to the same degree so i think that might be a reason they report more clearly on the atrocities what is a shame is that in austria daily reports of the inhuman acts commited by israeli soldiers and the blessing received from the government makes some of the holocaust guilt go away after all look how the jews are treating other races when they got power it is unfortunate
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re armenia says it could shoot down turkish planes armenia says it could shoot down turkish planes armenia does not have pot to piss in it let alone shooting down modern war planes
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re kh news i wrote from kayhan havai o dr namaki deputy minister of health stated that infant mortality under one year old in iran went down from per thousand before the revolution to per thousand at the end of last month o dr namaki also stated that before the revolution only f children received vaccinations to protect them from various deseases but this figure reached at the end of something funny happens to the percent sign in paragraph above the vaccination rate went from percent to percent farzin
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pbs frontline iran and the bomb i would like to share with netters a few points i picked up from the pbs frontline program regarding iran s nuclear activities aired on tuesday april for the sake of brevity i ll present them in some separate points as many other western programs this program was laid on a bed of misinformation throughout the program to maximize the effect of the program on the viewer some of the misinformations were as follows it was alleged that late imam khomeini objected to shah s technological advancements as anti islamic but now things have changed and the proof of change is that some iranian merchants are now selling personal computers these are the most ridiculous lies one can make about the objectives of the islamic revolution in toppling the shah and state of the technology in iran after revolution iran was equally accused of using chemical weapons against iraqi aggressors while there has never been any proof in this regard and nobody has seen iraqi soldiers or civilians injured by iranian chemical weapons in contrary to what the whole world has seen about iranian soldiers and civilians injured by iraqi chemical weapons while the number of martyrs during the sacred defense against iraqi aggression has been officially announced to be about and even most radical counter revolutionary groups claim that iran and iraq had a total of one million dead this program claims that iran alone has one million dead left from the war the translation of iranian officials talks are not true for example when iranian head of atomic energy says that it hurts me to see that iran is the subject of these unfriendly propaganda the translator says it hurts to see that iran is doing unfriendly research almost all alleged devices or material bought or planned to be bought by iranians were of countless dual usage while the program tries to undermine their non military uses without any reference to iran s big population and its inevitable need to other sources of energy in near future and its current deficit in electrical power the whole program is trying to show the sharif university of technology as a nuclear research center while even the cameramen of the program know well that in a country like iran without a so tightly closed society no one can make a nuclear bomb in a university taking in account the scientific advancement of sharif u in engineering fields and its potential role in improvement of iran s industries and eventually the lives of people it is obvious that they are persuading other countries to prevent them from further helping this university or other ones in scientific and industrial efforts a key point in program s justifications is trying to disvalidate as much as possible all efforts done by iaea in their numerous visits from iran s different sites they say we are not sure if the places visited by iaea are the real ones or not or we can not rely on iaea s reports and observation because they failed to see iraq s nuclear activities before as if they didn t know that iraq was trying to build nuclear weapons as an extremely personal opinion the most disgusting aspect of the program was the arrogance of the member of us senate foreign affairs william triplet in his way of talking as if he was the god talking from the absolute knowledge i hope all iranians be aware of the gradual buildup against their country in western media and i hope iranian authorities continue to their wise and calculated approach with regard to international affairs and peaceful coexistence with friendly nations mohammad international atomic energy agency
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re deir yassin in article r f ge morrow stanford edu as vxf forsythe stanford edu vic filler writes in article apr cs rit edu bdm cs rit edu brendan d mckay writes i have previously posted quotations by irgun participants that totally destroys begin s whitewash i have no particular desire to post it yet again brendan normally bdm cs anu edu au you apparently think you are some sort of one man judge and jury who so what are you can declare total victory and then sit back and enjoy the applause but you ve picked the wrong topic if you think a few rigged quotations can sustain the legend and lie of the deir yassin massacre i don t think that you are just making noise you have a lot to learn when it comes to historical methodology that s true i try to learn from people who know more than me not from useless farts at the most basic level you should know that there is a big difference between weighing evidence fairly and merely finding quotations that support your preset opinions of course i have said that more times in this group than anyone else i d think if you have studied the history of israel at all you must know that many of the sources of your quotations have an axe to grind and therefore you must be very careful about whom you quote for quite true that s why i am so careful in selecting quotes example meir pa il whom you cite was indeed a general a scholar and a war hero but that doesn t mean everything that comes out of his mouth is gold in fact and here your lack of experience shows pa il is such a fanatic embittered leftist that much of his oh bullshit fanatic my bum prove your blah or cork it anti israel blathering forget about anti irgun blathering would be considered something like treason in non israel contexts but of course you don t consider this at all when you find a juicy quotation that you can use to attack israel how would you know what i consider read my mind benny morris of hashomer hatzair represents himself as a scholar when he rehashes the old attacks on the irgun don t be fooled it s just the old zionist ideological catfight surfacing as an attack on the then likud government if you will look closely at the section on deir yassin in his book on the war of independence you will see his indictment to be pure hot air and this is the best he can do after decades of digging for any sort of damning evidence unfortunately for him because his book parades itself as scholarly he is forced to put footnotes so you can clearly see that his deir yassin account is based on nothing i looked very closely at a large number of sources you have no idea what you are talking about the deir yassin massacre never took place as the propagandists tell it any more than the sabra and shatila massacres do you get that s true about the accounts of both irgun and arab propagandists like begin for example the feeling people like to blame the jews for massacres even if no i never got that feeling i got rather opposite feelings about people like you though they have to make them up it must sound spicy even some jews like to do it for reasons of their own honesty perhaps you would explain the testimony from members of the irgun to be found in their own handwriting in the irgun archives in tel aviv that the wounded arabs were killed that a group of prisoners was massacred that lehi proposed exterminating everybody at the pre raid meeting exactly what reasons can you propose that this testimony should be rejected in favour of begin s please don t confuse any of you deir yassin massacre stuff with facts or scholarship you should stick to begin s version unless you find something serious to contradict it this is very funny you carried on about unsupported evidence propagandists axes to grind and you end up telling us to stick to the account of the leader of the alleged killers you are obviously a hopeless case as everyone can plainly see vic brendan
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re israeli terrorism ab z virginia edu andi beyer writes well i m not sure about the story nad it did seem biased what i disagree with is your statement that the u s media is out to ruin israels reputation that is rediculous the u s media is the most pro israeli media in the world having lived in europe i realize that incidences such as the one described in the letter have occured the u s media as a whole seem to try to ignore them the u s is subsidizing israels existance and the europeans are not at least not to the same degree so i think that might be a reason they report more clearly on the atrocities what is a shame is that in austria daily reports of the inhuman acts commited by israeli soldiers and the blessing received from the government makes some of the holocaust guilt go away after all look how the jews are treating other races when they got power it is unfortunate well said mr beyer cl cleveland freenet edu h a m z a foo i e most foo
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re remember those names come election time in article c u qi mz apollo hp com nelson p apollo hp com peter nelson writes btw with bosnia s large moslem population why have nations like turkey saudi arabia syria egypt and others with either money or strong military forces not spoken out more forcibly or offered to help out bosnia obviously you really don t know they have spoken out cf sec y of state christopher s recent trip to the me they have provided millions in aid and they have participated in the airlifts to sarajevo they would supply military aid if the un would lift the embargo on arms sales the turkish ambassador has ocassionally said a thing or two but that s all i see no great enthusism from any of those places to get their hands dirty why does the us always get stuck with this stuff see above kuwait has directly participated in the airlift of food to sarajevo besides there s no case that can be made for us military involvement there that doesn t apply equally well to say liberia angola or it appears with the khmer rouge s new campaign cambodia non whites don t count hmm some might say kuwaitis are non white ooops i forgot kuwaitis are oil rich loaded with petro dollars etc so they don t count peter
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re remember those names come election time i said in article c u qi mz apollo hp com nelson p apollo hp com peter nelson writes besides there s no case that can be made for us military involvement there that doesn t apply equally well to say liberia angola or it appears with the khmer rouge s new campaign cambodia non whites don t count hmm some might say kuwaitis are non white ooops i forgot kuwaitis are oil rich loaded with petro dollars etc so they don t count and let s not forget somalia which is about as far from white as it gets that s two in a row care to try for more
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re final solution for gaza in article igc apc org center for policy research cpr igc apc org writes from center for policy research cpr subject final solution for gaza while israeli jews fete the uprising of the warsaw ghetto fete since this word both formally and commonly refers to positive joyous events your misuse of it here is rather unsettling they repress by violent means the uprising of the gaza ghetto and attempt to starve the gazans i certainly abhor those israeli policies and attitudes that are abusive towards the palestinians gazans given that however there is no comparison between the reality of the warsaw ghetto and in gaza the right of the gazan population to resist occupation is recognized in international law and by any person with a sense of justice just as international law recognizes the right of the occupying entity to maintain order especially in the face of elements that are consciously attempting to disrupt the civil structure ironically international law recognizes each of these focusses that of the occupied and the occupier even though they are inherently in conflict as israel denies gazans the only two options which are compatible with basic human rights and international law that of becoming israeli citizens with full rights or respecting their right for self determination it must be concluded that the israeli jewish society does not consider gazans full human beings israel certainly cannot and should not continue its present policies towards gazan residents there is however a third alternative the creation and implementation of a jewish dhimmi system with gazans palestinians as benignly protected citizens would you find that as acceptable in that form as you do with regard to islam s policies towards its minorities whether they have some final solution up their sleeve it is a race then between israel s anti palestinian gazan final solution and the arab world s anti israel jewish final solution do you favor one neither i urge all those who have slight human compassion to do whatever they can to help the gazans regain their full human civil and political rights to which they are entitled as human beings since there is justifiable worry by various parties that israel and arab palestinian final solution intentions exist isn t it important that both israeli and palestinian gazan rights be secured elias davidsson iceland tim clock ph d graduate student uci tel department of politics and society fax university of california irvine home tel irvine ca
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re legality of the jewish purchase in article apr bnr ca zbib bnr ca writes amir y rosenblatt writes sam zbib writes no one in his right mind would sell his freedom and dignity palestinians are no exception perhaps you heard about anti trust in the business world since we are debating the legality of a commercial transaction we must use the laws governing the guidelines and ethics of such transactions basic anti trust law says that while you can purchase ibm stocks for the purpose of investing you can not acquire a large number of those shares with the intent or controlling ibm you can do so only if you make your intentions clear apriori clearly the jews who purchased properties from palastenians had some designs they were not buying a dwelling or a real estate they were establishing a bridgehead for the european jews the palastenians sold their properties to the jews in the old tradition of arab hospitality being a multi ethnic multi religious society accepting the jews as neighbours was no different just another religion plus they paid fair market value etc they did not know they were victims of an international conspiracy i m not a conspiracy theorist myself but this one is hard to dismiss right now i m just going to address this point when the jewish national fund bought most of its land it didn t buy it from the palestinians themselves because for the most part they were tenant farmers fallahin living on land owned by wealthy arabs in syria and lebanon the jnf offered a premium deal so the owners took advantage of it it s called commerce the owners however made no provisions for those who had worked for them basically shafting them by selling the land right out from under them they are to blame not the jews amir why would you categorize the sale of land as shafting was it because it was sold to jews was it fair to assume that the fallahin would be mistreated by the jews is this the norm of any commerce read shafting between arabs and jews it was shafting on the part of the arab land owners for doing it without notifying their tenant farmers and for not being responsible enough to make provisions for them but rather just leaving them to their fate your claim that the lebanese syrian landlords sold palestine if true even partially omits the fact that the mandate treaty put lebanon and syria under french rule while palestine under british obiviously any such landlord would have found himself a foreigner in palestine and would be motivated to sell regardless of the price the point is that the land was sold legally often at prices above its actual value it was legal and good business for the sellers though it left the palestinians who worked the land in a poor situation it is interesting though that you acknowledge that the palestinians were shafted do many israelis or jews share your opinion do you absolve the purchaser from any ethical commitments just because it wasn t written down i don t know if others share this opinion it is mine and i m sure there are some who agree and some who don t the way i see it the fallahin were caught in circumstances beyond their control in that since they didn t own the land they didn t have a say of course now for the sake of the greater arab unity the arabs are angry that the land was sold to the jews an act that is illegal in jordan but when it happened it was just business all told i did not see an answer in your response the question was whether the intent behind the purchase was aimed at controlling the public assets land infra structure etc imho the palestinians have grounds to contest the legality of the purchase say in world court sam my opinions are my own and no one else s the purpose of buying the land was to provide space and jobs for jewish immigrants in any case no matter what the purpose the sales were legal so i really don t see any grounds for contesting them amir
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re the u s holocaust memorial museum a costly dgannon techbook techbook com dan gannon writes gannon why don t you tell the readers of these newsgroups how you hail nazism on your bbs and post long articles claiming non whites are inferior the u s holocaust memorial museum a costly and dangerous mistake the museum is entirely funded by private donations but don t expect this fact to deter maynard btw gannon s ideological fathers also had a passion for constructing museums and collections some of which served to educate the public about the racial supremacy of the aryans one such collection was that of skeletons and there was no lack of these around letter from ss standartenfuehrer sievers to ss obersturmbannfuehrer dr brandt november trial of the major war criminals p dear comarade brandt as you know the reichsfuehrer ss has directed that ss hauptsturmfuehrer prof dr hirt be supplied with everything needed for his research work for certain anthropological researches i already reported to the reichsfuehrer ss on them skeletons of prisoners or rather jews are required which are to be supplied by the kl auschwitz however the good doctor needed some more items to complete his research testimony of magnus wochner ss guard at the natzweiler concentration camp the natzweiler trial edited by anthony m webb p i recall particularly one mass execution when about prisoners men and women all jews were killed by gassing this took place as far as i can remember in spring in this case the corpses were sent to professor hirt of the department of anatomy in strasbourg danny keren
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re why does us consider yigal arens to be a dangerous to humanity in article bimacs bitnet ehrlich bimacs bitnet gideon ehrlich writes in article arens apr grl isi edu arens isi edu yigal arens writes los angeles times tuesday april p a the problem if transffering us government files about yigal arens and some other similar persons does or does not violate a federal or a local american law seemed to belong to some local american law forum not to this forum the readers of this forum seemed to be more interested in the contents of those files so it will be nice if yigal will tell us why do american authorities consider yigal arens to be dangerous i m not aware that the us government considers me dangerous in any case that has nothing to do with the current case the claim against the adl is that it illegally obtained and disseminated information that was gathered by state and or federal agencies in the course of their standard interaction with citizens such as myself by that i refer to things such as address and phone number vehicle registration and license information photographs etc why does the adl have an interest in that person you should ask the adl if you want an authoritative answer my guess is that they collected information on anyone who did or might engage in political criticism of israel i further believe that they did this as agents of the israeli government or at least in agreement with them at least some of the information collected by the adl was passed on to israeli officials in some cases it was used to influence or attempt to influence people s access to jobs or public forums these matters will be brought out as the court case unfolds since california law entitles people to compensation if such actions can be proven as my previous posting shows california law entitles people to compensation even in the absence of any specific consequences just for the further dissemination of certain types of private information about them yigal arens usc isi tv made me do it arens isi edu
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re ten questions about israel in article apr vms huji ac il backon vms huji ac il writes in article igc apc org cpr igc apc org center for policy research writes is it true that in israeli prisons there are a number of individuals which were tried in secret and for which their identities the date of their trial and their imprisonment are state secrets apart from mordechai vanunu who had a trial behind closed doors there was one other espionage case the nutty professor at the nes ziona biological institute who was a k g b mole who was tried in camera i wouldn t exactly call it a state secret the trial was simply tried behind closed doors i hate to disappoint you but the united states has tried a number of espionage cases in camera at issue was not a trial behind closed doors but arrest trial and imprisonment in complete secrecy this was appraently attempted in the case of vanunu and failed it has happened before and there is reason to believe it still goes on read this from ma ariv february possibly publication ban the state of israel has never officially admitted that for many years there have been in its prisons israeli citizens who were sentenced to long prison terms without either the fact of their arrest or the crimes of which they were accused ever being made public by baruch me iri all those involved in this matter politely refused my request one way or another look the subject is too delicate if i comment on it i will be implicitly admitting that it is true if i mention a specific case even hint at it i might be guilty of making public something which may legally not be published the state of israel has never officially admitted that for many years there have been in its prisons israeli citizens who were sentenced to long prison terms without either the fact of their arrest or the crimes of which they were accused ever being made public more precisely a court ordered publication ban was placed on the fact of their arrest and later on their imprisonment in israel of citizens are imprisoned without us the citizens of this country knowing anything about it not knowing anything about the fact that one person or another were tried and thrown in prison for security offenses in complete secrecy in the distant past for example during the days of the lavon ya affair we heard about the third man being in prison but many years have passed since then and what existed then can today no longer be found even in south american countries or in the former communist countries but it appears that this is still possible in israel of the chair of the knesset committee on law the constitution and justice mk david zucker sent a letter on this subject early this week to the prime minister the minister of justice and the cabinet legal advisor ma ariv has obtained the content of the letter during the past several years a number of israeli citizens have been imprisoned for various periods for security offenses in some of these cases a legal publication ban was imposed not only on the specifics of the crimes for which the prisoners were convicted but even on the mere fact of their imprisonment in those cases after being legally convicted the prisoners spend their term in prison without public awareness either of the imprisonment or of the prisoner asserts mk zucker on the other hand zucker agrees in his letter that there is absolutely no question that it is possible and in some cases it is imperative that a publication ban be imposed on the specifics of security offenses and the course of trials but even in such cases the court must weigh carefully and deliberately the circumstances under which a trial will not be held in public however one must ask whether the imposition of a publication ban on the mere fact of a person s arrest and on the name of a person sentenced to prison is justified and appropriate in the state of israel the principle of public trial and the right of the public to know are not consistent with the disappearance of a person from public sight and his descent into the abyss of prison zucker thus decided to turn to the prime minister the minister of justice and the cabinet legal advisor and request that they consider the question the state of israel is strong enough to withstand the cost incurred by abiding by the principle of public punishment the state of israel cannot be allowed to have prisoners whose detention and its cause is kept secret wrote zucker the legal counsel of the civil rights union attorney mordechai shiffman said that we as the civil rights union do not know of any cases of security prisoners citizens of israel who are imprisoned and whose imprisonment cannot be made public this is a situation which if it actually exists is definitely unhealthy just like censorship is an unhealthy matter the union is aware says shiffman of cases where notification of a suspect s arrest to family members and lawyers is withheld i am speaking only of several days i know also of cases where a detainee was not allowed to meet with an attorney sometimes for the whole first month of arrest that is done because of the great secrecy the suspect himself his family his lawyer or even a journalist can challenge the publication ban in court but there are cases where the family members themselves are not interested in publicity the journalist knows nothing of the arrest and so almost everyone is happy attorney yossi arnon an official of the bar claims that given the laws as they exist in israel today a situation where the arrest of a person for security offenses is kept secret is definitely possible nothing is easier the court orders a publication ban and that s that someone who has committed security offenses can spend long years in prison without us knowing anything about it do you find this situation acceptable attorney arnon definitely not we live in a democratic country and such a state of affairs is impermissible i am well aware that publication can be damaging from the standpoint of security but total non publication silence is unacceptable consider the trial of mordechai vanunu at least in his case we know that he was charged with aggravated espionage and sentenced to years in prison the trial was held behind closed doors nobody knew the details except for those who were authorized to it is somehow possible to understand though not to accept the reasons but as i have noted we at least are aware of his imprisonment why is the matter actually that serious can t we trust the discretion of the court attorney arnon the judges have no choice but to trust the presentations made to them the judges do not have the tools to investigate this gives the government enormous power power which they can misuse and what if there really is a security issue attorney arnon i am a man of the legal system not a security expert democracy stands in opposition to security i believe it is possible to publicize the matter of the arrest and the charges without entering into detail we have already seen how the laws concerning publication bans can be misused in the case of the rachel heller murder a suspect in the murder was held for many months without the matter being made public attorney shiffman on the other hand believes that state security can be a legitimate reason for prohibiting publication of a suspect s arrest or of a convicted criminal s imprisonment a healthy situation definitely not but i am aware of the fact that mere publication may be harmful to state security a different opinion is expressed by attorney uri shtendal former advisor for arab affairs to prime ministers levi eshkol and golda meir clearly we are speaking of isolated special cases such situations contrast with the principle that a judicial proceeding must be held in public no doubt this contradicts the principle of freedom of expression definitely also to the principle of individual freedom which is also harmed by the prohibition of publication nevertheless adds shtendal the legislator allowed for the possibility of such a ban to accommodate special cases where the damage possible as a consequence of publication is greater than that which may follow from an abridgment of the principles i ve mentioned the authority to decide such matters of publication does not rest with the prime minister or the security services but with the court which we may rest assured will authorize a publication ban only if it has been convinced of its need beyond a shadow of a doubt nevertheless attorney shtendal agrees as a rule clearly such a phenomenon is undesirable such an extreme step must be taken only in the most extreme circumstances yigal arens usc isi tv made me do it arens isi edu
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re unconventional peace proposal in article igc apc org center for policy research cpr igc apc org writes from center for policy research cpr subject unconventional peace proposal a unconventional proposal for peace in the middle east by elias davidsson having stated my assumptions i will now state my proposal a fund should be established which would disburse grants for each child born to a couple where one partner is israeli jew and the other palestinian arab the emergence of a considerable number of mixed marriages in israel palestine all of whom would have relatives on both sides of the divide would make the conflict lose its ethnical and unsoluble core and strengthen the emergence of a truly civil society the existence of a strong mixed stock of people would also help the integration of israeli society into the sounds just like a racial theory that hitler outlined in mein kampf elias davidsson post box reykjavik iceland disclaimer opinions expressed are mine not my employer s
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re bb confessions in article apr thunder mcrcim mcgill edu ahmeda mcrcim mcgill edu ahmed abu abed writes but the irony is that the jewish population has no problem in electing a leader who has confessed to having an extra marrital affair this is a first aa the american people didn t have any problem with it too clinton actually i think that it does not make any difference as long as they have the qualifications to become leaders btw in my political view i hope and should be the arab hope too that binyamin netanyahu will not be ellected as prime minister of israel naftaly naftaly stramer intergraph electronics internet nstramer dazixco ingr com lookout road suite a voice fax boulder co quality is everybody s job and it s everybody s job to watch all that they can
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re public service translation no in article hydra gatech edu gt a prism gatech edu gt a gt a kaan timucin wrote kaan who the hell is this guy david davidian i think he talks too much i am your alter ego kaan yo david you would better shut the f up o k no its not ok what are you going to do come and get me kaan i don t like your attitute you are full of lies and shit in the united states we refer to it as freedom of speech if you don t like what i write either prove me wrong shut up or simply fade away kaan didn t you hear the saying don t mess with a turc no why do you ask what are you going to do are you going to submit me to bodily harm are you going to kill me are you going to torture me kaan see ya in hell wrong again kaan timucin all i did was to translate a few lines from turkish into english if it was so embarrassing in turkish it shouldn t have been written in the first place don t kill the messenger david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org how do we explain turkish troops on s d p a center for regional studies the armenian border when we can t p o box even explain cambridge ma turkish mp march
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hamas methods of murder if anyone gets the new york times the edit page has a transcript of a vhs from hams describing their methods of torture and execution i will post it later on
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legality of the jewish purchase was re israeli expansion lust adam shostack writes sam zbib writes i m surprised that you don t consider the acquisition of land by the jews from arabs for the purpose of establishing an exclusive state as a hostile action leading to war it was for the purpose of establishing a state not an exclusive state if the state was to be exclusive it would not have arab citizens could you please tell me what was the ethnic composition of israel right after it was formed and no i do not consider the purchase of land a hostile action when someone wants to buy land and someone else is willing to sell it at a mutually agreeable price then that is commerce it is not a hostile action leading to war no one in his right mind would sell his freedom and dignity palestinians are no exception perhaps you heard about anti trust in the business world since we are debating the legality of a commercial transaction we must use the laws governing the guidelines and ethics of such transactions basic anti trust law says that while you can purchase ibm stocks for the purpose of investing you can not acquire a large number of those shares with the intent or controlling ibm you can do so only if you make your intentions clear apriori clearly the jews who purchased properties from palastenians had some designs they were not buying a dwelling or a real estate they were establishing a bridgehead for the european jews the palastenians sold their properties to the jews in the old tradition of arab hospitality being a multi ethnic multi religious society accepting the jews as neighbours was no different just another religion plus they paid fair market value etc they did not know they were victims of an international conspiracy i m not a conspiracy theorist myself but this one is hard to dismiss as to whether the jews wanted to live in peace maybe however they wanted and still want an exclusively jewish state where jews are in control and jews are the masters of the land living in peace is meaningless unless it means living with someone else as equal for a native arab this does not leave many options oh you mean like both jews and arabs being citizens the arabs who stayed are now citizens with as much right to choose who they vote for as the jews again adam the devil is in the details i don t want to get on a tangent here but its the same reasonning that says its ok to return deportes and leave the rest because is a nice number that you can devide by and besides it has an integer square root those palestinians who stayed actually stayed despite of what happened and their number was somewhat tolerated as a defenseless and ineffective minority if i were wrong you d have israel recall all the palestinian refugees we re talking millions after all they are civilians huh the people who left did so voluntarily there is no reason for israel to let them in do you actually believe this my experience tells me that every palestinian i knew still keeps the key to his home in palestine besides they often refer to their exodus as an escape from hell so to speak i know none that agrees with you did you sample their opinions i know you don t care just being rethorical israel gave citizenship to the remaining arabs because it had to maintain a democratic facade to keep the western aid flowing israel got no western aid in nor in or it still granted citizenship to those arabs who remained and how is granting citizenship a facade don t get me wrong i beleive that israel is democratic within the constraints of one dominant ethnic group jews israel probably had a few options after ethnic cleansing serbian style and deserve the wrath of the international community or make the best out of a no win condition show the world how good israel is towards the bad arabs personaly i ve never heard anything about the arab community in isreal except that they re there so yes they re there but as a community with history and roots its dead tell me something sam what makes land arab how shall i explain its a contract between the man and the land control isn t it the ottomans ruled years and then left with barely a trace the concept of land identity is somewhat foreign to the mobile and pragmatic west it is partly the concept of le sol natal native soil i know that jews had previous history in the region but none in recent memory i m talking everyday life not archeology try again you tell me what its isn t but you fail to establish what it is also jews did have history in israel for over a thousand years there were lots of jews slaughtered by crusaders in israel there was a thriving community in gaza city from roughly jews were a majority in jerusalem from or so onwards does that make the land jewish i stand corrected i meant that the jewish culture was not predominant in palestine in recent history i have no problem with jerusalem having a jewish character if it were predominantly jewish so there what to make of the rest palestine adam shostack adam das harvard edu sam zbib bell northern research bitnet internet zbib bnr ca voice fax surface mail stop p o box station c ottawa canada k y h my opinions are my own and no one else s
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armenian admission to the crime of turkish genocide source men are like that by leonard ramsden hartill the bobbs merrill company indianapolis pages memoirs of an armenian officer who participated in the genocide of million muslim people p first paragraph the tartar section of the town no longer existed except as a pile of ruins it had been destroyed and its inhabitants slaughtered the same fate befell the tartar section of khankandi p third paragraph the city was a scene of confusion and terror during the early days of the war when the russian troops invaded turkey large numbers of the turkish population abandoned their homes and fled before the russian advance p first paragraph the tartar villages were in ruins serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
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armenian slaughter of more than kurdish people in source hassan arfa the kurds london pp when the russian armies invaded turkey after the sarikamish disaster of their columns were preceded by battalions of irregular armenian volunteers both from the caucasus and from turkey one of these was commanded by a certain andranik a blood thirsty adventurer these armenian volunteers committed all kinds of excesses more than six hundred thousand kurds being killed between and in the eastern vilayets of turkey serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
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their eyes gouged out by fascist armenians armenian barbarism atrocity reports horrify azerbaijan azeri officials who returned from the seen to this town about nine miles away brought back three dead children the backs of their heads blown off women and children had been scalped said assad faradzev an aide to karabagh s azeri governor azeri television showed pictures of one truckload of bodies brought to the azeri town of agdam some with their faces apparently scratched with knives or their eyes gouged out brian killen reuters the washington times killings rife in nagorno karabagh moldova journalists in the area reported seeing dozens of corpses including some of the civilians and azerbaijani officials said armenians began shooting at them when they sought to recover the bodies fred hiatt the washington post serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
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the armenians were fascist historical armenian fascism the armenians were deeply anti semitic as well in the may edition of hairenik weekly the vice mayor of bucharest rumania is quoted as saying the armenians helped us not to become the slaves of the jewish elements in our country in another edition an author named captain george haig writes and the type of jew who is imported to palestine is not anything to be proud about their loose morals and other vices were unknown to the arabs prior to balfour declaration on top of all communist activities were the cause of most of the arab criticism as uzun exposed the armenians were fascist before pearl harbor the dashnak daily hairenik not to be confused with the tzeghagrons hairenik weekly expressed pro nazi sentiments and came adolf hitler after herculean struggles he spoke to the racial heart strings of the german opened the fountain of his national genius strock down the spirit of defeatism at no period since the world war had berlin conducted so realistic well organized and planned policy as now since hitler s assumption to power and whatever others may think concerning hitlerism and fascism as a system of government it is proved that they have revitalized and regenerated the two states germany and italy captain george haig the case of palestine in hairenik weekly friday september hairenik official organ of the dashnaktsuitune sept quoted in john roy carlson the armenian displaced persons see endnote p serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
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re was go hezbollah in article apr ncsu edu hernlem chess ncsu edu brad hernlem writes in article bce news service uci edu tclock orion oac uci edu tim clock writes are you suggesting that when guerillas use the population for cover israel should totally back down so the easiest way to get away with attacking another is to use an innocent as a shield and hope that the other respects innocent lives tell me tim what are these guerillas doing wrong assuming that they are using civilians for cover assuming also come on brad if we are going to get anywhere in this or any discussion it doesn t help to bring up elements i never addressed nor commented on in any way i made no comment on who is right or who is wrong only that civilians are being used as cover and that having been placed in between the israelis and the guerillas they will be injured as both parties continue their fight the purpose of an army s use of military uniforms is to set its members apart from the civilians so that civilians will not be thought of by the other side as combatants so what do you think is the meaning behind the intention and the effect when an army purposely does not were uniforms but goes out of its way to look like civilians they are judging that the benefit they will receive from this cover is more important that the harm that will come to civilians this is a comment on the israeli experience and is saying that the guerillas do have some responsibility in putting civilians in the middle of this fight by putting on uniforms and living apart from civilians barracks etc the guerillas would significantly lower the risk to civilians but if the guerillas do this aren t they putting themselves at greater risk absolutely they ask themselves why set ourselves apart by wearing uniforms when there is a ready made cover for us civilians that makes sense from their point of view but when this cover is used the guerillas should accept some of the responsibility for subsequent harm to civilians if the buffer zone is to prevent attacks on israel is it not working why is it further neccessary for israeli guns to pound lebanese villages why not just kill those who try to infiltrate the buffer zone you see there is more to the shelling of the villages it is called retaliation getting back getting even it doesn t make sense to shell the villages the least it shows is a reckless disregard by the israeli government for the lives of civilians i agree with you here i have always thought that israel s bombing sortees and bombing policy is stupid thoughtless inhumane and ineffective but there is no reason that israel should passive wait until attackers chose to act there is every reason to believe that taking the fight to the enemy will do more to stop attacks as i said previously israel spent several decades sitting passively on its side of a border and only acting to stop these attacks after the attackers had entered israeli territory it didn t work very well the host arab state did little nothing to try and stop these attacks from its side of the border with israel so the number of attacks were considerably higher as was their physical and psychological impact on the civilians caught in their path what so the whole bit about attacks on israel from neighboring arab states can start all over again while i also hope for this to happen it will only occur when arab states show that they are prepared to take on the responsibility and the duty to stop guerilla attacks on israel from their soil they have to prove it or provide some guaratees there is no way israel is going to accept their word not with their past attitude of tolerance towards anti israel guerillas in residence if israel is not willing to accept the word of others then imho it has no business wasting others time coming to the peace talks this is just another selectively applied statement the reason for this drawn out impasse between ababs palestinians and israelis is that neither side is willing to accept the word of the other by your criteria everyone should stay away from the negotiations that is precisely why the palestinians in their recent pisga proposal for the interim period after negotiations and leading up to full autonomy are demanding conditions that essentially define autonomy already they do not trust that israel will follow through the entire process and allow palestinians to reach full autonomy do you understand and accept this viewpoint by the palestinians if you do then why should israel s view of arabs palestinians be any different why should they trust the arab palestinians words since they don t they are very reluctant to give up tangible assets land control of areas in exchange for words for this reason they are also concerned about the sorts of guarantees they will have that the arabs will follow through on their part of any agreement reached but don t you see that the same statement can be made both ways if lebanon was interested in peace then it should accept the word of israel that the attacks were the cause for war and disarming the hizbollah will remove the cause for its continued occupancy absolutely so are the arabs palestinians asking first for the israelis word in relation to any agreement no what is being demanded first is land when the issue is land and one party finally gets hold of this land what the other party does is totally irrelevent if i now have possession of this land your words have absolutely no power whether israel chooses to keeps its word does not get the land back afterall israel has already staged two parts of the withdrawal from areas it occupied in lebanon during slg tim you are ignoring the fact that the palestinians in lebanon have been disarmed hezbollah remains the only independent militia hezbollah does not attack israel except at a few times such as when the idf burned up sheikh mosavi his wife and young son while the major armaments those allowing people to wage civil wars have been removed the weapons needed to cross border attacks still remain to some extent rocket attacks still continue and commando raids only require a few easily concealed weapons and a refined disregard for human life yours of that of others such attacks also continue of course if israel would withdraw from lebanon and stop assassinating people and shelling villages they wouldn t make the lebanese so mad as to do that bat guano the situation you call for existed in the s and attacks were commonplace furthermore with hezbollah subsequently disarmed it would not be possible there is no way these groups can be effectively disarmed unless the state is as authoritarian is syria s the only other way is for lebanon to take it upon itself to constantly patrol the entire border with israel essentially mirroring israel s border secirity on its side it has to prove to isreal that it is this committed to protecting israel from attack from lebanese territory once syria leaves who is to say that lebanon will be able to retain control if syria stays thay may be even more dangerous for israel tim when is the last time that you recall any trouble on the syrian border not lately eh that s what i said ok but doesn t that mean that syria has to take over lebanon i don t think israel or lebanon would like that what both sides need is to receive something tangible the arabs palestinians are looking for land and demanding that they receive it prior to giving anything to israel israel has two problems if it gives up real land it is exposing itself to a changed geostrategic situation and that change doesn t help israel s position and when it gives up this land it needs to receive something in return to compensate for the increased risks tim
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re was go hezbollah in article apr yuma acns colostate edu bh lance colostate edu writes in article bce news service uci edu tclock orion oac uci edu tim clock writes in article apr yuma acns colostate edu bh lance colostate edu writes your view of this entire matter is far too serenely one sided and selectively naive oooh now that hurts i will not suffer you through more naive and one sided views of mine please skip my articles in the future oh wise tim and have a good day basil what is the point in throwing out one sided viewpoints which means ignoring that the other side s perspective and experience has any legitimacy while assuming that your side possesses no faults and bears no responbility for any of the negative impacts of a particular event isn t the former onesided isn t the latter naive if you feel that my opinion is wrong then please tell me how strategic withdrawal under the cover of a snide remark seems to be the favored tactic on this net but doesn t accomplish anything
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the hamas way of death the hamas way of death following is a transcript of a recruitment and training videotape made last summer by the qassam battalions the military arm of hamas an islamic palestinian group hamas figures significantly in the middle east equation in december israel deported more than palestinians to lebanon in response to hamas s kidnapping and execution of an israeli soldier a longer version appears in the may issue of harper s magazine which obtained and translated the tape my name is yasir hammad al hassan ali i live in nuseirat a refugee camp in the gaza strip i was born in i finished high school then attended gaza polytechnic later i went to work for islamic university in gaza as a clerk i m married and i have two daughters the qassam battalions are the only group in palestine explicitly dedicated to jihad holy war our primary concern is palestinians who collaborate with the enemy many young men and women have fallen prey to the cunning traps laid by the israeli security services since our enemies are trying to obliterate our nation cooperation with them is clearly a terrible crime our most important objective must be to put an end to the plague of collaboration to do so we abduct collaborators intimidate and interrogate them in order to uncover other collaborators and expose the methods that the enemy uses to lure palestinians into collaboration in the first place in addition to that naturally we confront the problem of collaborators by executing them we don t execute every collaborator after all about percent of them are innocent victims tricked or black mailed into their misdeeds the decision whether to execute a collaborator is based on the seriousness of his crimes if like many collaborators he has been recruited as an agent of the israeli border guard then it is imperative that he be executed at once he s as dangerous as an israeli soldier so we treat him like an israeli soldier there s another group of collaborators who perform an even more loathsome role the ones who help the enemy trap young men and women in blackmail schemes that force them to become collaborators i regard the isqat the process by which a palestinians is blackmailed into collaboration of single person as greater crime than the killing of a demonstrator if someone is guilty of causing repeated cases of isqat than it is our religious duty to execute him a third group of collaborators is responsible for the distribution of narcotics they work on direct orders from the security services to distribute drugs as widely as possible their victims become addicted and soon find it unbearable to quit and impossible to afford more they collaborate in order to get the drugs they crave the dealers must also be executed in the battalions we have developed a very careful method of uncovering collaborators we can t afford to abduct an innocent person because once we seize a person his reputation is tarnished forever we will abduct and interrogate a collaborator only after evidence of his guilt has been established never before if after interrogation the collaborator is found guilty beyond any doubt then he is executed in many cases we don t have to make our evidence against collaborators public because everyone knows that they re guilty but when the public isn t aware that a certain individual is a collaborator and we accuse him people are bound to ask for evidence many people will proclaim his innocence so there must be irrefutable proof before he is executed this proof is usually obtained in the form of a confession at first every collaborator denies his crimes so we start off by showing the collaborator the testimony against him we tell him that he still has a chance to serve his people even in the last moment of his life by confessing and giving us the information we need we say that we know his repentance in sincere and that he has been a victim that kind of talk is convincing most of them confess after that others hold out in those cases we apply pressure both psychological and physical then the holdouts confess as well only one collaborator has ever been executed without an interrogation in that case the collaborator had been seen working for the border guard since before the intifada and he himself confessed his involvement to a friend who disclosed the information to us in addition three members of his network of collaborators told us that he had caused their isqat with this much evidence there was no need to interrogate him but we are very careful to avoid wrongful executions in every case our principal is the same the accused should be interrogated until he himself confesses his crimes a few weeks ago we sat down and complied a list of collaborators to decide whether there were any who could be executed without interrogation an although we had hundreds of names still because of our fear of god and of hell we could not mark any of these men except for the one i just mentioned for execution when we execute a collaborator in public we use a gun but after we abduct and interrogate a collaborator we can t shoot him to do so might give away our locations that s why collaborators are strangled sometimes we ask the collaborator what do you think how should we execute you one collaborator told us strangle me he hated the sight of blood naftaly stramer intergraph electronics internet nstramer dazixco ingr com lookout road suite a voice fax boulder co quality is everybody s job and it s everybody s job to watch all that they can
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from israeli press madness from center for policy research cpr subject from israeli press madness written pm apr by cpr igc apc org in igc mideast forum from israeli press madness from the israeli press paper zman tel aviv tel aviv s time friday local tel aviv s paper affiliated with maariv date february journalist guy ehrlich subject interview with soldiers who served in the duvdevan cherry units which disguise themselves as arabs and operate within the occupied territories excerpts from the article a lot has been written about the units who disguise themselves as arabs things good and bad some of the falsehoods but the most important problem of those units has been hardly dealt with it is that everyone who serves in the cherry after a time goes in one way or another insane a man who said this who will here be called danny his full name is known to the editors served in the cherry after his discharge from the army he works as delivery boy his pal who will here be called dudu was also serving in the cherry and is now about to depart for a round the world tour they both look no different from average israeli youngsters freshly discharged from conscript service but in their souls one can notice something completely different it was not easy for them to come out with disclosures about what happened to them and they think that to most of their fellows from the cherry it woundn t be easy either yet after they began to talk it was nearly impossible to make them stop talking the following article will contain all the horror stories recounted with an appalling openness a short time ago i was in command of a veteran team in which some of the fellows applied for release from the cherry we called such soldiers h i hit by the intifada under my command was a soldier who talked to himself non stop which is a common phenomenon in the cherry i sent him to a psychiatrist but why i should talk about others when i myself feel quite insane on fridays when i come home my parents know i cannot be talked to until i go to the beach surf a little calm down and return the keys of my father s car must be ready for in advance so that i can go there i they dare talk to me before or whenever i don t want them to talk to me i just grab a chair and smash it instantly i know it is my nerve smashing chairs all the time and then running away from home to the car and to the beach only there i become normal another friday i was eating a lunch prepared by my mother it was an omelette of sorts she took the risk of sitting next to me and talking to me i then told my mother about an event which was still fresh in my mind i told her how i shot an arab and how exactly his wound looked like when i went to inspect it she began to laugh hysterically i wanted her to cry and she dared laugh straight in my face instead so i told her how my pal had made a mincemeat of the two arabs who were preparing the molotov cocktails he shot them down hitting them beautifully exactly as they deserved one bullet had set a molotov cocktail on fire with the effect that the arab was burning all over just beautifully i was delighted to see it my pal fired three bullets two at the arab with the molotov cocktail and the third at his chum it hit him straight in his ass we both felt that we d pulled off something next i told my mother how another pal of mine split open the guts in the belly of another arab and how all of us ran toward that spot to take a look i reached the spot first and then that arab blood gushing forth from his body spits at me i yelled shut up and he dared talk back to me in hebrew so i just laughed straight in his face i am usually laughing when i stare at something convulsing right before my eyes then i told him all right wait a moment i left him in order to take a look at another wounded arab i asked a soldier if that arab could be saved if the bleeding from his artery could be stopped with the help of a stone of something else like that i keep telling all this to my mother with details and she keeps laughing straight into my face this infuriated me i got very angry because i felt i was becoming mad so i stopped eating seized the plate with he omelette and some trimmings still on and at once threw it over her head only then she stopped laughing at first she didn t know what to say but i must tell you of a still other madness which falls upon us frequently i went with a friend to practice shooting on a field a gull appeared right in the middle of the field my friend shot it at once then we noticed four deer standing high up on the hill above us my friend at once aimed at one of them and shot it we enjoyed the sight of it falling down the rock we shot down two deer more and went to take a look when we climbed the rocks we saw a young deer badly wounded by our bullet but still trying to such some milk from its already dead mother we carefully inspected two paths covered by blood and chunks of torn flesh of the two deer we had hit we were just delighted by that sight we had hit em so good then we decided to kill the young deer too so as spare it further suffering i approached took out my revolver and shot him in the head several times from a very short distance when you shoot straight at the head you actually see the bullets sinking in but my fifth bullet made its brains fall outside onto the ground with the effect of splattering lots of blood straight on us this made us feel cured of the spurt of our madness standing there soaked with blood we felt we were like beasts of prey we couldn t explain what had happened to us we were almost in tears while walking down from that hill and we felt the whole day very badly we always go back to places we carried out assignments in this is why we can see them when you see a guy you disabled may be for the rest of his life you feel you got power you feel godlike of sorts both danny and dudu contemplate at least at this moment studying the acting dudu is not willing to work in any security linked occupation danny feels the exact opposite why shouldn t i take advantage of the skills i have mastered so well why shouldn t i earn for each chopped head i would deliver while being a mercenary in south africa this kind of job suits me perfectly i have no human emotions any more if i get a reasonable salary i will have no problem to board a plane to bosnia in order to fight there transl by israel shahak
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from israeli press nazi methods from center for policy research cpr subject from israeli press nazi methods written pm apr by cpr igc apc org in igc mideast forum from israeli press nazi methods from the israeli press newspaper ha aretz date february author gideon levi subject nazi methods in gaza title in the neighborhood of hope among the rubble excerpts mahmoud jowara r stared at me long and sadly i worked my entire life in order to built that house and this is what is left only tv could transmit the full sadness of his face you say that we teach our children to hate you but what do you expect to happen to a child who sees this and once again he wraps himself in a lengthy silence his face crumbling into weeping mahmoud stood in the field of rubble that was once his home the term dispossession has an absolute meaning here nothing is left of what he accumulated during his entire life only the rubble of a house and shreds of belongings once again khan yunis once again demolished homes last thursday there was a search for wanted people here once again the idf forces employed the new method fired and bombed and shot missiles and placed explosives already three times during the past weeks i have gone out to see the destruction and each time i was more horrifying scenes this time they hit the largest number of houses according to the idf estimate ten of them completely demolished but not only that the method has also become more brutal three weeks ago in tufah neighborhood in gaza the residents were still told to remove their valuables from their homes this time the army skipped that part three weeks ago the handcuffed men inhabitants of the demolished homes were supplied with some water and one apple during the hours they had to stand this time there was only water three weeks ago they were even allowed to go out to the toilet this time the soldier just gold them piss and shit in your pants and thus last thursday some men stood for about hours their hands bound behind their backs their eyes blindfolded without food with wet pants on their legs and a terrible feeling of humiliation in their hearts listening to the sounds of the explosions destroying their homes one after the other dr juma a fuad said al rubi the brother from saudi arabia emerges from among the ruins ten days ago he arrived for a family visit mainly in order to celebrate the housewarming with his father and brothers on thursday he was handcuffed like everyone else for hours and later went with everyone to view the destrucion he tried to explain that he was a visitor and that he is a physician but only got a shove like all the rest he also urinated in his pants while standing with his hands bound and his eyes blindfolded for the entire day juma a al rubi studied medicine at cairo university and for ten years he has been treating wealthy saudis in medina his wife and four children remained there now his documents have been lost and he does not know how he will return to them there is no humanity stated the physician from saudi arabia
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from israeli press torture from center for policy research cpr subject from israeli press torture written pm apr by cpr igc apc org in igc mideast forum from israeli press torture from the israeli press newspaper ma ariv date december author avi raz subject torture title of article moderate physical pressure several times in the course of the long hours in the interrogation room in tulkarm prison during which he says he was humiliated beaten and tortured omar daoud jaber heard his interrogator a shabak agent captain louis chatting on the phone with his wife at those moments omar said i felt that he was like a humanbeing but right after he finished talking he would be beat me and say you listened to the conversation and enjoyed yourself and i understood that he was not really a human being in late october after days in detention at tulkarm prison omar jaber was released without charges among the jews as among the arabs there are good people and bad people he said after his release but there in tulkarm in the interrogations rooms you cannot find even one person about whom you can say that he is a human being although he left the detention installation in tulkarm bruised and humiliated i sat at home for ten days my hands shook from nerves one may consider omar jaber lucky he got out not so healthy but entire and even ultimately returned to normal functioning at the small solar heater plant he owns in contrast hassan bader al zbeidi for example was released seven weeks ago from detention in tulkarm after days in the shabak wing cut off from his surroundings he doesn t speak or react mustafa barakat aged only who was arrested in early august and was brought to the tulkarm detention installation left it one day later dead we have recently received an especially large number of testimonies concerning cruel tortures employed at the tulkarm detention installation by shabak interrogators noted dr niv gordon director of the association of israel and palestinian physicians for human rights the right to complain against the shabak does not excite anan saber makhlouf a year old student in fact he was extremely fearful about describing the manner in which he was interrogated in tulkarm prison in case the publication in the paper would return him to detention and lead to renewed mistreatment follow description of tortures omar a tall bearded man was silent i do not want to talk about it he finally said quietly some time later embarrased and ashamed he spoke sometimes he beats you and beats you until you ll kiss his hand and not only his hand even the hands of another interrogator and another whom he calls into the room and the last interrogator says now you are kissing my hand and later if i want you will kiss my ass these things take place in an israeli army detention installation located within the military government compound in tulkarm west bank but the shabak interrogation wing is a separate kingdom in early march the idf allowed representatives of b tselem the israeli information center for human rights in the territories to visit tulkarm prison but denied them access to the interrogation wing the interrogation wing is shabak property being solely under shabak responsibility all interrogations are performed by it said lieutnant sharon sho an the commander of the installation according to the internal report written by b tselem member yuval ginbar following the visit major david pe er governing commander of the prison system in the central command was quoted in the report there is an ethical problem here no one can enter the interrogation wing transl by i shahak
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re turkish government agents on usenet i don t know anything about this particular case but other governments have been known to follow events on the usenet for example after tienanmien square in beijing the chinese government began monitoring cyberspace as the former director of peacenet i am aware of many incidents of local state national and international authorities monitoring usenet and other conferences such as those on the institute for global communications but what s the big deal you shouldn t advocate illegal acts in this medium in any case if you are concerned about being monitored you should use encyrption software available in igc s micro conference i know for a fact that human rights activists in the balkan mideast area use encryption software to send out their reports to international organizations such message can be decoded however by large computers consuming much cpu time which probably the turkish government doesn t have access to howard frederick university of california irvine department of politics and society
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from israeli press short notes from center for policy research cpr subject from israeli press short notes written pm apr by cpr igc apc org in igc mideast forum from israeli press short notes from the israeli press hadashot march the israeli police department announced on the evening of friday march that it is calling upon jewish israeli citizens with gun permits to carry them at all times so as to contribute to their security and that of their surroundings ha aretz march yehoshua matza likud chair of the knesset interior committee stated that he intends to demand that the police department make it clear to the public that anyone who wounds or kills non jewish terrorists will not be put on trial ha aretz march today a private security firm and units from the idf southern command will begin installation of four magnetic gates in the gaza strip as an additional stage in the upgrading of security measures in the strip the gates will aid in the searching of non jewish gaza residents as they leave for work in israel they can be used to reveal the presence of knives axes weapons and other sharp objects in addition to the gates which will be operated by a private civilian company large quantities of magnetic card reading devices are being brought to the inspection points to facilitate the reading of the magnetic cards these non jewish workers must carry
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re was go hezbollah in article apr yuma acns colostate edu bh lance colostate edu writes most of the people in my village are regular inhabitants that go about their daily business some work in the fields some own small shops others are older men that go to the coffe shop and drink coffee is that so hard to imagine quickly followed by some young men usually aged between to years are members of the lebanese resistance even the inhabitants of the village do not know who these are they are secretive about it but most people often suspect who they are and what they are up to this is the standard method for claiming non combatant status even for the commanders of combat these young men are supported financially by iran most of the time they sneak arms and ammunitions into the occupied zone where they set up booby traps for israeli patrols every time an israeli soldier is killed or injured by these traps israel retalliates by indiscriminately bombing villages of their own choosing often killing only innocent civilians innocent civilians like the ones who set up the booby traps or engaged in shoot outs with soldiers or attack them with grenades or axes we are now accustomed to israeli tactics and we figure that this is and the rest of the world is getting used to arab tactics of claiming innocence for even the most guilty of the vile murderers among them keep it up long enough and it will backfire but good jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president
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re basil opinions re water on the brain in article qmr qinn af early bird think com shaig think com shai guday writes the litani river flows in a west southwestern direction and indeed does not run through the buffer zone the hasbani does flow into the jordan but contrary to what our imaginative poster might write there has been no increase in the inflow from this river that is not proportional to climatic changes in rainfall what did you have to go and bring that up for now they re going to say that israel is stealing the rain too jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president
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re israeli expansion lust in article apr bnr ca zbib bnr ca writes jake livni writes sam zbib writes all deleted sam zbib s posting is so confused and nonsensical as not to warrant a reasoned response we re getting used to this too jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president
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re israel s expansion ii the comparison of the palestinian situation with the holocaust is insulting and completely false any person making such a rude and false comparison is either ignorant of the holocaust or also ignorant of the situation in the mideast or is an anti semite to compare a complicated political situation with the genocide of jews is racist in and of itself
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re israeli terrorism as someone who reads israeli newpapaers every day i can state with absolute certainty that anybody who relies on western media to get a picture of what is happening in israel is not getting an accurate picture there is tremendous bias in those stories that do get reported and the stories that never get mentioned create a completely false picture of the mideast
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re israeli terrorism how many of you readers know anything about jews living in the arab countries how many of you know if jews still live in these countries how many of you know what the circumstances of arabic jews leaving their homelands were just curious
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re final solution for gaza center for policy research writes subject final solution for gaza final solution for the gaza ghetto while israeli jews fete the uprising of the warsaw ghetto they repress by violent means the uprising of the gaza ghetto and attempt to starve the gazans your comparison with the warsaw ghetto uprising is insulting and racist beyond belief the attempts to quiet any violence in the gaza strip are just that the efforts to quell murder and mayhem in the gaza strip were the resluts of violence and came after the violence it was not an arbitrary racial move like the nazi treatment of jews jews had not committed acts of violence and murder as have the residents of gaza i find your eagerness to ignore the acts of murder nothing more than anti israel bigotry the gaza strip this tiny area of land with the highest population density in the world has been cut off from the world for weeks the israeli occupier has decided to punish the whole population of gaza some people by denying them the right to leave the strip and seek work in israel it is not punishment but protection from repeated attacks by residents of gaza you self servingly omit any references to why israel has had to take action apparaently the deaths of innocent israeli civilians do not enter into your equation a racist ommission on your part while polish non jews risked their lives to save jews from the ghetto no israeli jew is known to have risked his life to help the gazan resistance the only help given to gazans by israeli jews only dozens of people is humanitarian assistance the right of the gazan population to resist occupation is recognized in international law and by any person with a sense of justice a population denied basic human rights is entitled to rise up against its tormentors the right of israel to protect its citizens from murderers is also recognized by international law israeli civilians have been getting stabbed to death on a daily basis if this wave of murder does not matter to you then your posturing for the basic human rights you claim matter so much to you is nothing but an anti israel charade as is known the israeli regime is considering gazans unworthy of israeli citizenship and equal rights in israel although they are considered worthy to do the dirty work in israeli hotels shops and fields do you know of residents of gaza who have applied for israeli citizenship and were denied i have heard of no such denials taking place can you document this or is this more of your stupid and innacurate propaganda the truth is that if gazan residents applied for citizenship hamas would murder them as collaborators many gazans are born in towns and villages located in israel they may not live there for these areas are reserved for the master race how dare you use such a disgusting phrase how very easy you attack a people when you omit facts which fly in the face of your pure racism perhaps you are judging a people to be the racists that you are do you believe that all jews must have the same bigoted makeup as you here s another little fly in your ointment about the master race for you to avoid two months ago a plane with bosnian muslims left bosnia to seek asylum in the middle east four arab nations refused to grant them asylum then when israli arabs agreed to take the responsibility for them they were allowed into israel yes israel but when the plane landed the israeli arabs who had previously agreed to take care of them refused to be involved with the rescue project because they felt that it would make israel look good it was more important to avoid any good pr for israel than to take care of fellow muslims israel moved them to a kibbutz where they are safe and secure the truth is that time after time the islamic world has turned its back on muslims in need more than israel has even in the case of the deportees lebanon was willing to let their so called arab brothers freeze to death rather than give them sanctuary in lebanon nearly twice as many palestinians have been murdered by other palestinians than in confrontations with israel hundreds of thousands of palestinians had been deported from kuwait just because they were palestinian the truth is that your phoney concern for the welfare of the palestinians is nothing but an excuse to attack israel you are part of the ignorant effort to confine all concern for the welfare of the palestinians to attacking israel but the truth is there are greater reasons than israel for the plight of the palestinians to disregard jordan or kuwait or saudi arabia or any of the other oil rich nations who do nothing for these people is to use the plight of these poor people as a vehicle for your hatred of jews or your hatred of israel anti semitism and anti zionism is not the same as pro palestinian and anyone who insists that it is the same really does not give two hoots for their welfare the nazi regime accorded to the residents of the warsaw ghetto the right to self administration they selected jews to pacify the occupied population and preventing any form of resistance some jewish collaborators were killed israel also wishes to rule over gaza through arab collaborators your pathetic analogy is so absent of relevant fact that your racism cannot be disguised jews had never declared war on a polish people jews had never attacked poles with knives or had used the ghetto as a staging ground for attacks to take something like the warsaw ghetto the creation of which you do not even bother to discuss and the uprising that followed is to degrade the dead and to show that intelligent debate on a difficult situation is beyond your intellectual purview you clearly have never even read a single word of the covenant of the islamic resistance movement here is arguably the single most anti semitic genocidal document since mein kampf yet it is totally disregarded in your rantings your racism is most evident in your eagerness to avoid such documentation if it were considered you might actually have to deal with mideast problems in a balanced manner rather than in an anti semitic manner as israel denies gazans the only two options which are compatible with basic human rights and international law that of becoming israeli citizens with full rights or respecting their right for self determination it must be concluded that the israeli jewish society does not consider gazans full human beings and just how was gaza obtained do you forget that israel is not in the habit of grabbing land for the hell of it but had taken gaza in a war that it did not start did you know land israel captures in wars wars which other nations have always started aren t the same as israel and they are subject to a completely different set of international laws since you do continuously refer to international law would you please say what specific international laws israel is violating this attitude is consistent with the attitude of the nazis towards jews i can cite reasons why it is not the current policies by the israeli government of cutting off gaza are consistent with the wish publicly expressed by prime mininister yitzhak rabin that gaza sink into the sea where is this quote i have never heard rabin assert that he wished such a thing since you are in general a liar you ll have to provide the entire quote with source or this effort will be regarded as just another one of your fabrications one is led to ask oneself whether israeli leaders entertain still more sinister goals towards the gazans whether they have some final solution up their sleeve only you are led to ask such a loaded racist intellectually dishonest question you inability to come to terms with what you are has turned you into a racist of the highest order i urge all those who have slight human compassion to do whatever they can to help the gazans regain their full human civil and political rights to which they are entitled as human beings why do you not feel the same compassion for the jews of iran or iraq or yemen or saudi arabia or syria do you have an inkling of what they have endured over the past decades or what about the plight of the palestinians in kuwait or what about the treatment of the bosnian muslims do you think the residents of gaza are being subjected to what all the muslims in bosnia are enduring why are you indifferent to the death and suffering of people why do you not care that these folk are being exterminated why do you not care that only israel has given any of these people safe haven could it be due to the fact that it is not israel who is doing the killing the people in gaza are not being exterminated they aren t being killed they aren t being raped they aren t being starved they aren t being driven from their lands they are not kept from receiving food or other supplies but the bosnians are and the only country which has provided some sanctuary to the bosnian muslims is the same nation that you have devoted your life to attacking in the guise of compassion your rantings are so unfettered by the burden of intellectual honesty that you ought to take a deep breath and ask yourself what your real motives are do not flatter yourself into the belief that truth or compassion are what drives you in your case it is clear that hate beats out love every time maybe you are burdened with some kind of guilt for having been born a jew it is obvious that your hatred of your own judaism is being dumped on all other jews why else would you suggest a racist idea like breeding jews out of existence maybe these fits of anti semitism are a result of being cut off from your own people for an extended period whatever the case may be it is clear that you are not what you have labored so hard to appear to be when you realize that you can t care for other people while you hate yourself you might actually begin to do some good but for now you are a fruad
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hamza salah the humanist cl cleveland freenet edu hamaza h salah writes well said mr beyer he he the great humanist speaks one has to read mr salah s posters in which he decribes jews as sons of pigs and monkeys keeps promising the final battle between muslims and jews in which the stons and the trees will cry for the muslims to come and kill the jews hiding behind them makes jokes about jews dying from heart attacks etc to realize his objective stance on the matters involved danny keren
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re hamza salah the humanist mr salah why are you such a homicidal racist do you feel this same hatred towards christans or is it only jews are you from a family of racists did you learn this racism in your home or are you a self made bigot how does one become such a racist i wonder what you think your racism will accomplish are you under the impression that your racism will help bring peace in the mid east i would like to know your thoughts on this
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re israeli terrorism in a previous article ai yfn ysu edu ishaq s azzam says in a previous article bc cleveland freenet edu mark ira kaufman says how many of you readers know anything about jews living in the arab countries how many of you know if jews still live in these countries how many of you know what the circumstances of arabic jews leaving their homelands were just curious i thought there are no jews live in arab countries didn t hey move all to palestine only the happy jews did not move would you tell me which arab country is prohipiting the jews from migrating to palestine the last arab country was syria but not all of them migrated due to the jewish state economical and securital dilemma cl cleveland freenet edu h a m z a foo i e most foo
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talk.politics.mideast
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re deir yassin in article martinb brise ere umontreal ca aurag ere umontreal ca aurag hassan writes are you trying to say that there were no massacres in deir yassin or in sabra and shatila if so then let me tell you some good jokes there is not and was not any such thing like jewish killing in wwii palestinians just did what davidians did for fourty years and more in fact no one was killed in any war at any time or any place people die that is all no one gets killed maybe also vietamiese didn t die in vietnam war killed by american napalm they were just pyromaniacs and that s all maybe jews just liked gas chambers and no one forced them to get in there they may be thought it was like snifing cocaine no what do you think of this isn t it stupid to say so well it is as stupid as what you said next time you want to lie do it intelligently sincerely yours hassan arab civilians did die at dir yassin but there was no massacre first of all the village housed many armed troops secondly the irgun and stern fighters had absolutely no intentions of killing civilians the village was attacked only for its military significance in fact a warning was given to the occupants of the village to leave before the attack was to begin by all rational standards dir yassin was not a massacre the killing was unintentional the village housed arab snipers and arab troops thus it was attacked for its military significance it was not attacked with intentions of killing any civilians to even compare dir yassin in which some or so arabs died to the holocaust is absurd the irgun did not want to kill any civilians the village had almost inhabitants most of whom survived harry
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talk.politics.mideast
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dir yassin from myths and facts by leonard j davis near east research inc pp unlike the plo s almost exclusive focus on civilian targets the troups from the irgun and stern group that struck at deir yassin on april targeted the village for its military importance deir yassin was on the road to jerusalem which the arabs had blockaded and it housed iraqi troups and palestinian irregulars snipers based in deir yassin were a constant threat to jewish citizens in jerusalem arab civilians were killed at deir yassin but that attack does not conform to the propaganda picture that the arabs have tried to paint the number of arabs killed was generally reported to be about in however eric silver of the guardian britain interviewed a survivor mophammed sammour who testified that out of a population of were killed about three days after the massacre sammour explained representatives of each of the five clans in deir yassin met at the moslem offices in jerusalem and made a list of the people who had not been found alive we went through the names nothing has happend since to make me think this figure was wrong unlike the plo s deliberate attacks on civilians the killing of civilians at deir yassin was not premeditated the attackers left open an escape corridor from the village and more than residents left unharmed after the remaining arabs feigned surrender and then fired on the jewish troops some of the attackers killed arab soldiers and civilians indiscriminately independent observers told the guardian that among the bodies they found arab men disguised as women
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