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accounts of anti armenian human right violations in azerbaijan accounts of anti armenian human right violations in azerbaijan prelude to current events in nagorno karabakh i asked what s going on he says what s the matter can t you see they ve overturned a car and they re killing armenians deposition of zaven armenakovich badasian born employed sumgait bulk yarn plant resident at building apartment microdistrict no sumgait azerbaijan on february my wife and i went to baku to go shopping and returned to sumgait at around five in the evening we ran into one of my relatives at the bus station and got to talking a lot of people had gathered not far away near the store well at first we didn t know what was happening and then a fellow i know comes up to me an azerbaijani guy and says what are you standing here for go home immediately i asked what s going on he says what s the matter can t you see they ve overturned a car and they re killing armenians he helped me catch a cab and we got home safely we sat at home for two days during that time a gang of bandits came into our courtyard but the neighbors wouldn t let them in the building there were about of them they had sticks and pieces of armatures in their hands they were shouting something but you couldn t understand it it wasn t one voice or two all of them were shouting in a chorus they turned toward building they went up to the third floor and we see that they re breaking glass and throwing things out the window after a while they come out the entryway one has a pair of jeans in his hands another has a tape recorder and a third a guitar they went on toward the auto parts store we had to save ourselves after midnight on march we went to hide at school no which is in microdistrict there were two other armenian families there with us there were of us altogether out of all of them i had only known ernest before he had moved to sumgait from kirovabad the azerbaijani guard at the school let us in at first he didn t want to but there was nowhere else for us to go we had to plead with him and talk him into it we were told that on that day the st there would be an attack on our microdistrict we went upstairs to a classroom on the second floor on the city radio station they announced three telephone numbers that could be used to summon assistance or communicate anything important i called one of them and the first secretary of the sumgait city party committee answered i asked him for assistance i say we re in school no we need to be evacuated well he says got it wait there i m sending out help now i know his voice the first secretary had been to our plant i had spoken with him personally when i called he said muslimzade here about two hours after the call we heard shouts near the school we looked out the window and about to people were outside saying armenians come out we re here to get you they have clubs axes and armature shafts in their hands the guard sat there with us and asked where should i go i say if your life is of any value to you you ll go down there and say that the armenians were here and that they left that s what he did he went down there and said the armenians were here he said i let them out the back door they went that way and pointed with his hand and with shouts and noise the mob set off in the direction he had pointed so the assistance we had been promised did come they sent us help all right instead of sending real soldiers he had sent his own i am positive that muslimzade did that no one had seen us entering the school no one knew that we were there in any case we stayed at the school until seven in the morning and no soldiers of any sort came to our aid in the morning we went to my relative s in microdistrict and the soldiers took us to the sk club from there the club was jammed with people and there were lots of people ahead of us there was no space available one small boy about three months old died right in my arms there wasn t a single doctor nothing the boy was uninjured there were no wounds or bruises on him he was just very ill they gave him mouth to mouth resuscitation they did everything they could under the circumstances but were unable to save him and his mother and father a young armenian couple were right there on the floor i searched for a spot for us in the sk we have a small child of our own i wanted to find a room or something to put my family in i went up to the third floor there were a lot of soldiers up there bandaged with canes limping with their heads broken open they were a terrible sight young guys all of them there were a lot of bandaged armenians too everyone had been beaten everyone was crying wailing and calling for help i think that the city party committee ignored us completely true there was a snack bar a sausage was kopeks or kopeks a package of cookies that cost kopeks was being sold for a bottled soft drink cost a ruble but there was no way to get the things any cheaper i met my old uncle aram mikhailovich there he saw me and tears welled up in his eyes my whole life he had told me that we were friendly peoples that we worked together he always had azerbaijanis over at his house and now he saw me and there was nothing he could say he just cried you can understand his feelings of course april yerevan reference the sumgait tragedy pogroms against armenians in soviet azerbaijan volume i eyewitness accounts edited by samuel shahmuradian forward by yelena bonner published by aristide d caratzas ny pages david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org armenia has not learned a lesson in s d p a center for regional studies anatolia and has forgotten the p o box punishment inflicted on it cambridge ma late turkish president turgut ozal
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re turkey cyprus bosnia serbia greece armenia azeris in article finaid auvm american edu finaid auvm american edu writes look mr atakan i have repeated it in the past and i shall repeat it once more that when it comes to how greeks are treating the turks in greece you and your copatriots should simply shut up because what you are hearing is simply a form of propaganda from your ethnic fellows who studied at the greek universities without paying any money for tuition food and helth insurance and any high school graduate can put down some simple math and compare the grouth of the turkish community in greece with the destruction of the greek minority in turkey aykut atalay atakan panos tamamidis mr tamamidis before repling your claims i suggest you be kind to individuals who are trying to make some points abouts human rights discriminations and unequal treatment of turkish minority in greece i want the world know how bad you treat these people you will deny anything i say but it does not make any difrence because i will write things that i saw with my eyes you prove yourself prejudice by saying free insurance school etc do you greeks only give these things to turkish minority or everybody has rights to get them your words even discriminate these people you think that you are giving big favor to these people by giving these thing that in reality they get nothing if you do not know unhuman practices that are being conducted by the government of the greece i suggest that you investigate to see the facts then we can discuss about the most basic human rights like fredom of religion if you did not see with your eyes freedom of religion you must ne at least blind fredom of press of turkish weeks ago i read the interview of a turkish journalist in a greek magazine he said nothing about being forbiden to have turkish press in greece minority ethnic cleansing of all turks in greece give as a brake you call athnic cleansing of apopulation when it doubles freedom of right to have property without government intervention what do you mean by that anyway in greece as in every country if you want some property you inform the goverment fredom of right to vote to choose your community leaders well well well when turkish in area of komotini elect out of represenatives of this area to greek parliament if not freedom what is it out of maybe there are only turks living there how greek government encourages people to destroy religious places houses farms schools for turkish minority then forcing them to go to turkey without anything with them i cannot deny that actions of fanatics from both sides were reported a minority of greek idiots indeed attack religious places which were protected by the greek police photographs of greek policemen preventing turks from this non brain minority were all over greek press before i conclude my writing let me point out how greeks are treated in turkey we do not consider them greek minority instead we consider a part of our society there is no difference among people in turkey we do not state that greek minority go to turkish universities get free insurance food and health insurance because these are basic human needs and they are a part of turkish community all big businesses belong to greeks in turkey and we are proud to have them unlike the greece which tries to destroy turkish minority we encourage all minorities in turkey to be a part of turkish society oh no please do give as a brake minorities in turkish treated like that your own countrymen die in the prisons every day bacause of their political beliefs an this is reported by turks and you want us to believe tha turkey is the paradise of human rights business of greeks i turkey yes years ago you seem to be intelligent so before presenting turkey as the paradise of human rights just invastigate this matter a bit more aykut atalay atakan
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the israeli press andy beyer has claimed that the israeli press is a bit biased but the fact is that there are events shaping the politics of the mideast that people who do not read the israeli press simply know nothing about many of these events are not even mentioned here i read the israeli press to learn of important events about which you know nothing because of your total reliance on western media for your information on israel since i read both american media and israeli media i can say with absolute certainty that anybody who reliesx exclusively on the american press for knowledge about israel does not have a true picture of what is going on as to the claim that israeli papers are biased of course they are some may lean to the right or the left just like the media here in america but they still report events about which people here know nothing i choose to form my opinions about israel and the mideast based on more knowledge than does an average american who relies exclusively on an american media which does not report on events in the mideast with any consistency or accuracy
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israel does not kill reporters anas omran has claimed that the israelis used to arrest and sometime to kill some of these neutral reporters the assertion by anas omran is of course a total fabrication if there is an once of truth iin it i m sure anas omran can document such a sad and despicable event otherwise we may assume that it is another piece of anti israel bullshit posted by someone whose family does not know how to teach their children to tell the truth if omran would care to retract this error i would be glad to retract the accusation that he is a liar if he can document such a claim i would again be glad to apologize for calling him a liar failing to do either of these would certainly show what a liar he is
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re rejoinder questions to israelis in article igc apc org center for policy research cpr igc apc org writes from center for policy research cpr subject rejoinder questions to israelis dear josh i appreciate the fact that you sought to answer my questions having said that i am not totally happy with your answers you did not fully answer my question whether israeli id cards identify the holders as jews or arabs you imply that u s citizens must identify themselves by race is that true or are just trying to mislead the reader i think he is trying to mislead people in cases where race information is sought it is completely voluntary the census possibly excepted anwar
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re israeli terrorism anas omran writes in his earlier posting a high rank israeli officer was killed during a clash whith a hamas and then his fantasy begins mujahid the terrorist israelis chased and killed a young mujahid using anti tank missiles the terrorist zionists cut the mujahid s body into small pieces to the extend that his body was not recognized at leat ten houses were destroyed by these atni tank missiles anas omran this clearly is a fantastic story anas i am very curious as to who or what your sources are for this grossly exaggerated account if not blatant lie it surprises me that this story has not yet made it to the front pages of the major newspapers which love to make the state of israel look as evil as humanly possible such a story would be eaten up by some of the papers over here so please explain to me why i have never seen nor heard of it before believe me i m not expecting a reply because we both know where the story came from your dreams michael zion magil ibm canada laboratory
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re israeli terrorism in article rd eo a usenet ins cwru edu cy cleveland freenet edu anas omran writes there are many neutral human rights organizations which always report on the situation in the o t but as most people used to see on tv the israelis do not allow them to go deep there in the o t the israelis used to arrest and sometimes to kill some of these neutral reporters so this is another kind of terrorism committed by the jews in palestine they do not allow fair and neutral coverage of the situation in palestine please list the names of some of those neutral reporters that were killed in the o t it is also interesting to note that at the outbreak of the intifada palestinian parties quickly began orchestrating their demonstrations for the benefit of the media having spoken to a danish reporter who covered the initfada i know of at least one case where he found out that a mass demonstration on the outskirts of gaza was setup for himself and his colleagues when i asked whether the footage shot was sent he replied affirmatively after all it did happen when this became the case the idf began closing sensitive trouble spots to reporters anas omran shai guday stealth bombers os software engineer thinking machines corp the winged ninja of the skies cambridge ma
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re seventh century a d armenian math problems in article r qn innd n flop engr orst edu koc rize ece orst edu cetin kaya koc writes problem my father told me the following story during the famous wars between the armenians and the persians prince zaurak kamsarakan performed extraordinary heroic deeds three times in a single month he attacked the persian troops the first time he struck down half of the persian army the second time pursuing the persians he slaughtered one fourth of the soldiers the third time he destroyed one eleventh of the persian army the persians who were still alive numbering two hundred eighty fled to nakhichevan and so from this remainder find how many persian soldiers there were before the massacre answer a a i thought the implication was that the prince destroyed one fourth of the remaining persian troops on the second round and then of those remaining on the third round this would mean answer a a
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re israel does not kill reporters anas omran has claimed that the israelis used to arrest and sometime to kill some of these neutral reporters the assertion by anas omran is of course a total fabrication if there is an once of truth iin it i m sure anas omran can document such a sad and despicable event otherwise we may assume that it is another piece of anti israel bullshit posted by someone whose family does not know how to teach their children to tell the truth if omran would care to retract this error i would be glad to retract the accusation that he is a liar if he can document such a claim i would again be glad to apologize for calling him a liar failing to do either of these would certainly show what a liar he is why retract your accusation that he s a liar if omran retracts his verbal diarrohea doesn t that only prove the liar he really is a retraction would be pointless giving this guy the opportunity to save face after uttering such bullshit would just encourage him to do it again i must say that your style is very impressive mark keep it up mike mi ke mik emik emi k opinions expressed above m i k e m i k e m are my own and not that m i k e mikem i kem i k of big blue m i k e m ike m ike mike
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re unconventional peace proposal in article c un y jn apollo hp com goykhman apollo hp com red herring writes in article igc apc org center for policy research cpr igc apc org writes from center for policy research cpr subject unconventional peace proposal a unconventional proposal for peace in the middle east by elias davidsson having stated my assumptions i will now state my proposal a fund should be established which would disburse grants for each child born to a couple where one partner is israeli jew and the other palestinian arab the emergence of a considerable number of mixed marriages in israel palestine all of whom would have relatives on both sides of the divide would make the conflict lose its ethnical and unsoluble core and strengthen the emergence of a truly civil society the existence of a strong mixed stock of people would also help the integration of israeli society into the sounds just like a racial theory that hitler outlined in mein kampf someone else said something similar i will not comment on the value or lack of value of elias s proposal i just want to say that it is very distressing that at least two people here are profoundly ignorant of nazi racial doctrine they were not like elias s idea they were more like the opposite nazis believed in racial purity not racial assimilation an instructive example is the nazi attitude to gypsies according to nazi theoreticians gypsies were an aryan race they were persecuted and in huge numbers murdered because most european gypies were considered not pure gypsies but mongrels formed from the pure gypsy race and other undesirable races this was the key difference between the theoretical approach to jews and gypsies by the way it is also true that towards the end of wwii even the purist gypsies were hunted down as the theory was forgotten brendan email bdm cs anu edu au
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ozal died it was announced on npr am edt that turkish president ozal died of a heart attack in ankara david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org how do we explain turkish troops on s d p a center for regional studies the armenian border when we can t p o box even explain cambridge ma turkish mp march
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re the israeli press bc cleveland freenet edu mark ira kaufman writes for your information on israel since i read both american media and israeli media i can say with absolute certainty that anybody who reliesx exclusively on the american press for knowledge about israel does not have a true picture of what is going on of course you never read arab media i read arab israeli jer post and this network is more than enough and western american french and british reports and i can say that if we give israel and arabs on the bias scale of course you can switch the polarities israeli newspapers will get either a or american leading newspapers and tv news range from to yes there are some that are more israelis than israelis the montreal suburban a local free newspaper probably is closer to kahane s views than some israeli right wing newspapers british range from neutral to french that iknow of of course range from afro french magazines to arab official media range from to egyptian to in sa why no because they do not want to overdo it and stir people against israel and therefore against them since they are doing nothing as to the claim that israeli papers are biased of course they are some may lean to the right or the left just like the media here in america but they still report events about which people here know nothing i choose to form my opinions about israel and the mideast based on more knowledge than does an average american who relies exclusively on an american media which does not report on events in the mideast with any consistency or accuracy the average bias of what you read would be probably around while that of the average american would be the same if they do not read or read the new york times and similar news makers and if they read some other relatively less biased newspapers so you are not better off
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re israel s expansion ii ab z virginia edu andi beyer writes waldo cybernet cse fau edu writes ab z virginia edu andi beyer writes first of all i never said the holocaust i said before the holocaust i m not ignorant of the holocaust and know more about nazi germany than most people maybe including you uh oh the first sign of an argument without merit the stating of one s qualifications in an area if you know something about nazi germany show it if you don t shut up simple as that i don t think the suffering of some jews during wwii justifies the crimes commited by the israeli government any attempt to call civil liberterians like myself anti semetic is not appreciated all jews suffered during wwii not just our beloved who perished or were tortured we all suffered second the name calling was directed against you not civil libertarians in general your name dropping of a fancy sounding political term is yet another attempt to cite qualifications in order to obfuscate your glaring unpreparedness for this argument go back to the minors junior all humans suffered emotionally some jews and many others suffered physically it is sad that people like you are so blinded by emotions that they can t see the facts thanks for calling me names it only assures me of what kind of ignorant people i am dealing with i included your letter since i thought it demonstrated my point more than anything i could write when you re willing to actually support something you say with fact or argument rather than covering up your own inadequacies with feigned offense let me know otherwise back to your own league son
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re clinton s views on jerusalem in article apr porthos cc bellcore com bf pyuxe cc bellcore com feigenbaum benjamin writes i recently read that during bill clinton s campaign he stated that if elected he would immediately recognize jerusalem as israel s capital according to the article mr clinton reaffirmed this after winning the presidency however during recent talks with president mubarak secretary of state christopher stated that the status of jerusalem will be a final matter of discussion between the parties now i don t want to start a big discussion over the status of jerusalem all i want to know is if anyone can authenticate mr clinton s statements with dates places etc this would be one of the results of u s backed peace process hamid thank you ben
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re the hamas way of death nstramer supergas dazixco ingr com naftaly stramer writes the hamas way of death following is a transcript of a recruitment and training videotape made last summer by the qassam battalions the military as opposed to israel s many ways of death using bombers and artillery against lebanese towns and villages using fire arms and lethal variants of tear gas and rubber coated bullets against stone throwers using tanks and anti tank missiles against homes after a minute evacuation warning using shin bit s reasonable physical pressure in interrogation and more not counting of course past practices such as the bombardment of beirut in the bombing of the egyptian school of bahr el bakar and the abu za bal factory in the downing of the libyan airliner full of egyptian passengers near the same time overseeing the maronite massacre in sabra and shatilla that is of course besides numerous massacres by irgun and other gangs during the british mandate period ironically the same op ed page in the nyt times from which the naftaly copied this article was running another article next to it by a m rosenthall blaming bosnian muslims for their own genocide by effectively saying that it is stupid to seek independence if independence will bring your people slaughter but what else would one expect from mr rosenthall who never wasted a chance to bash arabs or muslims alaa zeineldine
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re was go hezbollah in article bcf a news service uci edu tclock orion oac uci edu tim clock writes in article apr ncsu edu hernlem chess ncsu edu brad hernlem writes in article bce news service uci edu tclock orion oac uci edu tim clock writes are you suggesting that when guerillas use the population for cover israel should totally back down so the easiest way to get away with attacking another is to use an innocent as a shield and hope that the other respects innocent lives tell me tim what are these guerillas doing wrong assuming that they are using civilians for cover assuming also come on brad if we are going to get anywhere in this or any discussion it doesn t help to bring up elements i never addressed nor commented on in any way i made no comment on who is right or who is wrong only that civilians are being used as cover and that having been placed in between the israelis and the guerillas they will be injured as both parties continue their fight pardon me tim but i do not see how it can be possible for the idf to fail to detect the presence of those responsible for planting the bomb which killed the three idf troops and then later know the exact number and whereabouts of all of them several villages were shelled how could the idf possibly have known that there were guerrillas in each of the targetted villages you see it was an arbitrary act of retaliation if the buffer zone is to prevent attacks on israel is it not working why is it further neccessary for israeli guns to pound lebanese villages why not just kill those who try to infiltrate the buffer zone you see there is more to the shelling of the villages it is called retaliation getting back getting even it doesn t make sense to shell the villages the least it shows is a reckless disregard by the israeli government for the lives of civilians i agree with you here i have always thought that israel s bombing sortees and bombing policy is stupid thoughtless inhumane and ineffective but there is no reason that israel should passive wait until attackers chose to act there is every reason to believe that taking the fight to the enemy will do more to stop attacks as i said previously israel spent several decades sitting passively on its side of a border and only acting to stop these attacks after the attackers had entered israeli territory it didn t work very well the host arab state did little nothing to try and stop these attacks from its side of the border with israel so the number of attacks were considerably higher as was their physical and psychological impact on the civilians caught in their path the problem tim is that the original reason for the invasion was palestinian attacks on israel not lebanese attacks what so the whole bit about attacks on israel from neighboring arab states can start all over again while i also hope for this to happen it will only occur when arab states show that they are prepared to take on the responsibility and the duty to stop guerilla attacks on israel from their soil they have to prove it or provide some guaratees there is no way israel is going to accept their word not with their past attitude of tolerance towards anti israel guerillas in residence if israel is not willing to accept the word of others then imho it has no business wasting others time coming to the peace talks this is just another selectively applied statement the reason for this drawn out impasse between ababs palestinians and israelis is that neither side is willing to accept the word of the other by your criteria everyone should stay away from the negotiations that is precisely why the palestinians in their recent pisga proposal for the interim period after negotiations and leading up to full autonomy are demanding conditions that essentially define autonomy already they do not trust that israel will follow through the entire process and allow palestinians to reach full autonomy do you understand and accept this viewpoint by the palestinians if you do then why should israel s view of arabs palestinians be any different why should they trust the arab palestinians words since they don t they are very reluctant to give up tangible assets land control of areas in exchange for words for this reason they are also concerned about the sorts of guarantees they will have that the arabs will follow through on their part of any agreement reached first i believe that my statement applies to both sides having said that i think it is neccessary to separate what is legitimately negotiable and what is not for example no country has the right to abuse one s human rights deciding whether there will be one or two states in palestine is a legitimate question while de facto one state exists israel must treat all within its domain equitably tim you are ignoring the fact that the palestinians in lebanon have been disarmed hezbollah remains the only independent militia hezbollah does not attack israel except at a few times such as when the idf burned up sheikh mosavi his wife and young son while the major armaments those allowing people to wage civil wars have been removed the weapons needed to cross border attacks still remain to some extent rocket attacks still continue and commando raids only require a few easily concealed weapons and a refined disregard for human life yours of that of others such attacks also continue yes i am afraid that what you say is true but that still does not justify occupying your neighbor s land israel must resolve its disputes with the native palestinians if it wants peace from such attacks of course if israel would withdraw from lebanon and stop assassinating people and shelling villages they wouldn t make the lebanese so mad as to do that bat guano the situation you call for existed in the s and attacks were commonplace not true lebanese were not attacking israel in the s with a strong lebanese government free from syrian and israeli interference i believe that the border could be adequately patrolled the palestinian heavy weapons have been siezed in past years and i do not see as significant a threat as once existed please tim don t fall into the trap of treating lebanese and palestinians as all part of the same group there are too many who think all arabs or all muslims are the same too many times i have seen people support the bombing of palestinian camps in retaliation for an idf death at the hands of the lebanese resistance or the shelling of lebanese villages in retaliation for a palestinian attack tim
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re the hamas way of death in article apr nntpd lkg dec com alaa peewee unx dec com alaa zeineldine writes nstramer supergas dazixco ingr com naftaly stramer writes the hamas way of death following is a transcript of a recruitment and training videotape made last summer by the qassam battalions the military alaa zeineldine while you brought up the separate question of israel s unjustified policies and practices i am still unclear about your reaction to the practices and polocies reflected in the article above tim
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re the u s holocaust memorial museum a costly and dangerous mistake arf genesis mcs com jack schmidling writes in article c ut s xa bony bony com jake bony bony com jake livni writes through private contributions on federal land your hate mongering article is devoid of current and historical fact intellectual content and social value down the toilet it goes and we all know what an unbiased source the nyt is when it comes to things concerning israel neither the times nor the trained seals who have responded thus far seem to recognize the statement that these private funds were all tax exmpt in otherwords american taxpayers put up at least of the money and finalyy how does federal land mitigate the offensiveness of this alien monument dedicated to perpetuating pitty and the continual flow of tax money to a foreign entity that federal land and tax money could have been used to commerate americans or better yet to house homeless americans the donations are tax deductible like any donations to a non profit organization i ve donated money to a group restoring streetcars and it was tax deductible why don t you contribute to a group helping the homeless if you so concerned
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re final solution in palestine o k its my turn driving the jews into the sea i am sick and tired of this driving the jews into the sea sentance attributed to islamic movements and the plo it simply can t be proven as part of their plan may i suggest you chech out the palestinian national covenant it may not use the exact words as quoted above but i m sure many will agree that the same message is being issued later on when i get back home i will try to find the precise section s but you can do the research for now i hope i also realize that yasser arafat renounced the covenant to the western media only but he has yet to inform the pnc officially and enequivocally of his exact intentions on this issue therefore as far as we are concerned the covenant still stands as the bible so to speak of the mainstream palestinian national movement pro israeli activists repeat it like parrots without checking its authenticity since it was coined by bnai brith as a staunch pro israel activist i can confidently say that bnai brith has not influenced my opinions on the arab israeli conflict as i mentioned above just a little research on the subject will lead anyone to reach a similar conclusion on the palestinian national movement the plo in most cases bb does not properly speak for me nor many of the people around me who share my views what hamas and islamic jihad believe in as far as i can get from the arab media is an islamic state that protects the rights of all its inhabitants under koranic law this would be a reversal of the situation in which the jews in palestine took control of the land and its mostly muslim inhabitants what situation a negative situation i presume is this the same situation when the jordanian occupiers of east jerusalem would not allow the jews to go worship at the holiest site in judiasm was this an example of qu ranic law being exercised if not i have another suggested reading for you get into the soc culture arabic newsgroup where the posters have been debating the topic jews in the qu ran and may i remind you the people doing the debating appear to be devout muslims with some knowledge of the qu ran you will find that jews aren t really viewed positively by the qu ran to put it lightly so how do you think jews or any other non islamic religion will be treated by an islamic state governed by the words of the qu ran i think the situation in jerusalem will return at best what do you think however whoever committed crimes against humanity torture blowing up their homes murders must be treated and tried as a war criminal the political thought of these movements shows that a freedom of choice will be given to the jews in living under the new law or leaving to the destintion of their choice all i have to say to that is once again see s c a jews in the qu ran and think again freedom of choice is definitely not an option in qu ranic law especially for non muslims and all women remember the gulf war i m sure you saw the reports about how women had few rights in saudi arabia an islamic state as for the plo i am at a loss to explain what is going inside arafat s mind probably nothing aside from how to break the news to his palestinian brethren that the covenant is null and void without getting assassinated himself although their political thinking seems far fetched with israel acting as a true super power in the region the islamic movements are using the same weapon the jews used to establish their state religion in conclusion ahmed you should go to the library and find the palestinian national covenant and read it very carefully by the way redpath library does have it in stock because that is exactly where i found it when i was doing my research so enjoy the reading and i hope we will be hearing back from you soon mike mi ke mik emik emi k opinions expressed above m i k e m i k e m are my own and not that m i k e mikem i kem i k of big blue m i k e m ike m ike mike ibm corp toronto canada
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re desertification of the negev in article apr cs brown edu dzk cs brown edu danny keren writes this is nonsense i lived in the negev for many years and i can say for sure that no beduins were moved or harmed in any way on the contrary their standard of living has climbed sharply many of them now live in rather nice permanent houses and own cars there are quite a few beduin students in the ben gurion university there are good friendly relations between them and the rest of the population all the beduins i met would be rather surprised to read mr davidson s poster i have to say danny keren it is nonsense danny if you can refute it with proof if you are citing your experience then you should have been there in the s the article is comparing the condition then with that now otherwise it is you who is trying to change the facts ahmed
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re freedom in u s a in article apr virginia edu ab z virginia edu andi beyer writes jaa cunixa cc columbia edu writes dear mr beyer it is never wise to confuse freedom of speech with freedom of racism and violent deragatory it is unfortunate that many fail to understand this crucial distinction in fact if a speach was not offensive to some its protection under freedom of speach laws would be useless it is speach that some find questionable that must be protected be it religiously blasphemous or inherently racist it is only through civilized discourse and not scare tactics that one can enlighten those that one perceives to be ignorant that is the idea behind freedom of expression what you find offensive might be perceived as truth by some and what they might find offensive might be your belief it is only through free exchange of ideas and insults as the case seems to be with this channel that one can change another s erring ways that is why jefferson said that here we are not afraid to tolerate error so long as reason is left to combat it those who forward offensive posts to the sysadmin aren t curtailing anyones freedom of speech the neo nazi movement has a right to make speeches say anything they want they do not have a right to have these speeches published by the n y times that depends on the times analysis of the economic and to somewhat extent newsworthy value of those speeches likewise to the sysadmin of this fellows system if he feels his resources are being used in a manner that is not in his best interests or are perhaps embarassing to his organization he will act just as the new york times does not to be a conduit for these ideas the poster is after all free loading off of someone else s pocket book when he posts he who controls the purse strings has the right to make the decision how he wants those funds spent or not spent noone is going to put the poster in jail unless he bombs a local building as a symbol of his hatred freedom of speech in no way equates to accessibility to conduits of information the market of ideas has its own natural selection process that weeds out the ga ga from the credible ideas that are of importance seth rosenthal disclaimer all opinions are my own not my employers
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re the u s holocaust memorial museum a costly and dangerous mistake in article r pb nkk genesis mcs com arf genesis mcs com jack schmidling writes neither the times nor the trained seals who have responded thus far seem to recognize the statement that these private funds were all tax exmpt in otherwords american taxpayers put up at least of the money dammit how did arfarf s latest excretion escape my kill file oh he changed sites again sigh ok i assume no other person on this planet will ever use the login name of arf arf ak j mike van pelt mvp netcom com local prohibitions cannot block advances in military and commercial technology democratic movements for local restraint can only restrain the world s democracies not the world as a whole k eric drexler
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re israeli terrorism anas the anus anas omran writes in his earlier posting anas a high rank israeli officer was killed during a clash whith a hamas anas mujahid the terrorist israelis chased and killed a young mujahid anas using anti tank missiles the terrorist zionists cut the mujahid s anas body into small pieces to the extend that his body was not recognized anas at leat ten houses were destroyed by these atni tank missiles if indeed israeli soldiers killed a hamas mujahid with an anti tank missile then i m almost sure that the terrorist zionists would not have been able to cut up a body which was probably desintegrated by the missile stop polluting the net with you fantasies tsiel tsiel ohayon jcpl co jp if you do not receive this e mail please let me employer may not have same know as soon as possible if possible opinions if any two percent of zero is almost nothing
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re to be exact million muslims were exterminated by the armenians ac in zuma uucp sera zuma uucp serdar argic pl linden positive eng sun com peter van der linden pl so did the turks kill the armenians ac so did the jews kill the germans ac you even make armenians laugh ac an appropriate analogy with the jewish holocaust might be the ac systematic extermination of the entire muslim population of ac the independent republic of armenia which consisted of at ac least percent of the population of that republic the ac memoirs of an armenian army officer who participated in and ac eye witnessed these atrocities was published in the u s in ac with the title men are like that other references abound typical mutlu pvdl asks if x happened the response is that y happened even if we grant that the armenians did do what cosar accuses them of doing this has no bearing on whether the turks did what they are accused of while i can understand how an ai could be this stupid i can t understand how a human could be such a moron as to either let such an ai run amok or to compose such pointless messages himself i do not expect any followup to this article from argic to do anything to alleviate my puzzlement but maybe i ll see a new line from his list of insults warren nysernet org
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re turkey cyprus bosnia serbia greece armenia azeris in article apr iastate edu tankut iastate edu sabri t atan writes in article apr news uiowa edu mau herky cs uiowa edu mau napoleon writes from article apr iastate edu by tankut iastate edu sabri t atan well panos mr tamamidis the way you put it it is only the turks who bear the responsibility of the things happening today that is hard to believe for somebody trying to be objective when it comes to conflicts like our countries having you cannot blame one side only there always are bad guys on both sides what were you doing on anatolia after the ww anyway do you think it was your right to be there i ve heard many turks say this and it surpises me that they don t read about it remember the treaty of sevres as a consequence of being in the axis powers in wwi the turks under international law were supposed to look after their minorities ie greeks armenians kurds i must say turk kurd relations are improving slightly with time and not pose a threat to turkey s neighbours the turks blatantly rejected this treaty the germans grudgingly accepted versailles which was a million times worse for the health and pride of the german people the greeks who had an army there were there with british and french backing to enforce sevres in possibly the first example of appeasement the young turk government managed screwed the treaty of laussane out of the weak allies this was after the greek forces were were destroyed at smyrna when this occurred incidently french warships were in the harbour and many greeks trying escape swam to the french warships and climbed aboard only to get their arms cut off by the french as they clawed they re way up the sides of the ships libertae egalitae fraternatae there were a couple millions of greeks living in asia minor until someone had to protect them if not us who i am not saying that conflicts started with that it is only not one side being the aggressive and the ither always suffering it is sad that we both still are not trying to compromise i remember the action of the turkish government by removing the visa requirement for greeks to come to turkey i thought it was a positive attempt to make the relations better compromise on what the invasion of cyprus the involment of turkey in greek politics the refusal of turkey to accept miles of territorial waters as stated by international law the properties of the greeks of konstantinople the ownership of the islands in the greek lake sorry aegean there are some things on which there can not be a compromise the greeks i mentioned who wouldn t talk to me are educated people they have never met me but they know i am bad person because i am from turkey politics is not my business and it is not the business of most of the turks when it comes to individuals why the hatred any person who supports the policies of the turkish goverment directly or indirecly is a bad person it is not your nationality that makes you bad it is your support of the actions of your goverment that make you bad people do not hate you because of who you are but because of what you are you are a supporter of the policies of the turkish goverment and as a such you must pay the price so that makes me think that there is some kind of brainwashing going on in greece after all why would an educated person treat every person from a nation the same way can you tell me about your history books and things you learn about greek turkish encounters during your schooling take it easy tankut atan tankut iastate edu achtung baby you do not need brainwashing to turn people against the turks just talk to greeks arabs slavs kurds and all other people who had the luck to be under turkish occupation they will talk to you about murders rapes distruction you do not learn about turks from history books you learn about them from people who experienced first hand turkish friendliness napoleon well napoleon it is your kind of people who are preventing peace on the world first of all you didn t answer the question i asked at the end of my posting and then you told me some bullshit throughout your posting which had no positive point about the issue filled with hatred and filled with emotions why am i doing this forget it i don t think you are worth it to discuss the issue tankut atan tankut iastate edu achtung baby
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re conventional proposales israel palestinians the fact that israel is already discussing with some palestinians what the composition of the armed palestinian police force in the territories will be during the transition phase indicates some real solid concessions and liberal thinking on the part of the israeli side chris metcalfe
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a moment of silence for the perpetrators of the turkish genocide in article sdcc ucsd edu ma saj sdcc ucsd edu system operator writes april th is approaching and armenians around the world are getting ready to remember the massacres of their family members celebrating in joy the cold blooded genocide of million muslim people by your criminal grandparents between and did you think that you could cover up the genocide perpetrated by your fascist grandparents against my grandparents in you ve never heard of april rd in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul it is in our power to tear away the veil of illusion that some of us create for ourselves it certainly is possible to severe the artificial life support system of an imagined ethnic purity that some of us falsely trust as the only structure that can support their heart beats in this alien land sahak melkonian preserving the armenian purity during the first world war and the ensuing years the armenian dictatorship through a premeditated and systematic genocide tried to complete its centuries old policy of annihilation against the turks and kurds by savagely murdering million muslims and deporting the rest from their year homeland the attempt at genocide is justly regarded as the first instance of genocide in the th century acted upon an entire people this event is incontrovertibly proven by historians government and international political leaders such as u s ambassador mark bristol william langer ambassador layard james barton stanford shaw arthur chester john dewey robert dunn papazian nalbandian ohanus appressian jorge blanco villalta general nikolayef general bolkovitinof general prjevalski general odiselidze meguerditche kazimir motayef twerdokhlebof general hamelin rawlinson avetis aharonian dr stephan eshnanie varandian general bronsart arfa dr hamlin boghos nubar sarkis atamian katchaznouni rachel bortnick halide edip mccarthy w b allen paul muratoff and many others j c hurewitz professor of government emeritus former director of the middle east institute columbia university bernard lewis cleveland e dodge professor of near eastern history princeton university halil inalcik university professor of ottoman history member of the american academy of arts sciences university of chicago peter golden professor of history rutgers university newark stanford shaw professor of history university of california at los angeles thomas naff professor of history director middle east research institute university of pennsylvania ronald jennings associate professor of history asian studies university of illinois howard reed professor of history university of connecticut dankwart rustow distinguished university professor of political science city university graduate school new york john woods associate professor of middle eastern history university of chicago john masson smith jr professor of history university of california at berkeley alan fisher professor of history michigan state university avigdor levy professor of history brandeis university andreas g e bodrogligetti professor of history university of california at los angeles kathleen burrill associate professor of turkish studies columbia university roderic davison professor of history george washington university walter denny professor of history university of massachusetts caesar farah professor of history university of minnesota tom goodrich professor of history indiana university of pennsylvania tibor halasi kun professor emeritus of turkish studies columbia university justin mccarthy professor of history university of louisville jon mandaville professor of history portland state university oregon robert olson professor of history university of kentucky madeline zilfi professor of history university of maryland james stewart robinson professor of turkish studies university of michigan so the list goes on and on and on serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
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ajerk you a good case for rights to abortion system fourd com phone cute quote being a computer means never having to say you re sorry
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argic can you aswer me one question how did you get to be so retarded system fourd com phone cute quote being a computer means never having to say you re sorry
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as armenians celebrating the genocide of million muslim people in article sdcc ucsd edu ma saj sdcc ucsd edu system operator writes or as we have painfully witnessed in azerbaijan would like to see it happen again is this the joke of the month your fascist grandparents exterminated million muslim people between and your nazi parents fully participated in the extermination of the european jewry during wwii your criminal cousins have been slaughtering muslim women children and elderly people in fascist x soviet armenia and karabag for the last four years the entire population of x soviet armenia now as a result of the genocide of million muslim people are armenians for nearly one thousand years the turkish and kurdish people lived on their homeland the last one hundred under the oppressive soviet and armenian occupation the persecutions culminated in the armenian government planned and carried out a genocide against its muslim subjects million turks and kurds were murdered and the remainder driven out of their homeland after one thousand years turkish and kurdish lands were empty of turks and kurds the survivors found a safe heaven in turkiye today x soviet armenian government rejects the right of turks and kurds to return to their muslim lands occupied by x soviet armenia today x soviet armenian government covers up the genocide perpetrated by its predecessors and is therefore an accessory to this crime against humanity x soviet armenian government must pay for their crime of genocide against the muslims by admitting to the crime and making reparations to the turks and kurds turks and kurds demand the right to return to their lands to determine their own future as a nation in their own homeland during the th anniversary we come once again reiterate the unity of the muslim people the timelessness of the turkish and kurdish demands and the desire to pursue the struggle for that restitution a struggle that unites all turks and kurds today we appeal to all turkish and kurdish people in the united states and canada to participate en masse in the commemorative events be they cultural political or religious serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
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as today marks the th anniversary of the turkish genocide in article sdcc ucsd edu ma saj sdcc ucsd edu system operator writes or as we have painfully witnessed in azerbaijan would like to see it happen again is this the joke of the month your fascist grandparents exterminated million muslim people between and your nazi parents fully participated in the extermination of the european jewry during wwii your criminal cousins have been slaughtering muslim women children and elderly people in fascist x soviet armenia and karabag for the last four years the entire population of x soviet armenia now as a result of the genocide of million muslim people are armenians for nearly one thousand years the turkish and kurdish people lived on their homeland the last one hundred under the oppressive soviet and armenian occupation the persecutions culminated in the armenian government planned and carried out a genocide against its muslim subjects million turks and kurds were murdered and the remainder driven out of their homeland after one thousand years turkish and kurdish lands were empty of turks and kurds the survivors found a safe heaven in turkiye today x soviet armenian government rejects the right of turks and kurds to return to their muslim lands occupied by x soviet armenia today x soviet armenian government covers up the genocide perpetrated by its predecessors and is therefore an accessory to this crime against humanity x soviet armenian government must pay for their crime of genocide against the muslims by admitting to the crime and making reparations to the turks and kurds turks and kurds demand the right to return to their lands to determine their own future as a nation in their own homeland during the th anniversary we come once again reiterate the unity of the muslim people the timelessness of the turkish and kurdish demands and the desire to pursue the struggle for that restitution a struggle that unites all turks and kurds today we appeal to all turkish and kurdish people in the united states and canada to participate en masse in the commemorative events be they cultural political or religious serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
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armenians were also partners in nazi practices in article c vbnv cj blaze cs jhu edu arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu ken arromdee writes this implies both sides are equal true it may sometimes be difficult or still living in an alternate universe numerous articles in major newspapers london times and periodicals newsweek during the war had suggested the existence of a significant collaboration between armenians and the nazis arthur derounian deserves credit for being the first person to deal with this issue extensively derounian s motives were twofold his deeply held democratic convictions gave him a sense of duty and he felt obliged to shed light on this yet another dark chapter of armenian history concurrently derounian embarked on what one would call crisis control or face saving in order to forestall any potential attacks on the larger armenian community in the united states he marginalized collaboration as deplorable but insignificant john roy carlson real name arthur derounian the plotters e p dutton company inc new york p source mitteilungsblatt berlin december nr and yet another historical fact a fact that for years has been deliberately forgotten concealed and wiped from memory the fact of armenian nazi collaboration a magazine called mitteilungsblatt der deutsch armenischen gesselschaft is the clearest and most definite proof of this collaboration the magazine was first published in berlin in during nazi rule of germany and continued publication until the end of even the name of the magazine which implies a declaration of armenian nazi cooperation is attention getting this magazine every issue of which proves the collaboration is historically important as documentary evidence it is a heap of writing that should be an admonition to world opinion and to all mankind in nazi germany armenians were considered to be an aryan race and certain political economic and social rights were thus granted to them they occupied positions in public service and were partners in nazi practices the whole world of course knows what awaited those who were not considered aryan and what befell them now wait there is more source from sardarapat to sevres and lausanne by avetis aharonian the armenian review vol no autumn sep pp p second paragraph your three chiefs dro hamazasp and kulkhandanian are the ringleaders of the bands which have destroyed tartar villages and have staged massacres in zangezour surmali etchmiadzin and zangibasar this is intolerable look and here he pointed to a file of official documents on the table look at this here in december are the reports of the last few months concerning ruined tartar villages which my representative wardrop has sent me the official tartar communique speaks of the destruction of villages p fifth paragraph yes of course i repeat until this massacre of the tartars is stopped and the three chiefs are not removed from your military leadership i hardly think we can supply you arms and ammunition it is the armed bands led by dro hamazasp and kulkhandanian who during the past months have raided and destroyed many tartar villages in the regions of surmali etchmiadzin zangezour and zangibasar there are official charges of massacres serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
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this year the turkish nation is mourning and praying again for referring to notes from the personal diary of russian general l odishe liyetze on the turkish front he wrote on the nights march alone armenian butchers bayoneted and axed to death muslims in areas surrounding erzincan these barbars threw their victims into pits most likely dug according to their sinister plans to extinguish muslims in groups of my adjutant counted and unearthed such pits this is an act against our world of civilization on march lieut colonel griyaznof wrote from an official russian account of the turkish genocide roads leading to villages were littered with bayoneted torsos dismembered joints and carved out organs of muslim peasants alas mainly of women and children source doc dr azmi suslu russian view on the atrocities committed by the armenians against the turks ankara universitesi ankara pp document no archive no cabin no drawer no file no section no contents no acting commander of erzurum and deveboynu regions and commander of the second erzurum artillery regiment prisoner of war lieutenant colonel toverdodleyov the things i have heard and seen during the two months until the liberation of erzurum by the turks have surpassed all the allegations concerning the vicious degenerate characteristic of the armenians during the russian occupation of erzurum no armenian was permitted to approach the city and its environs while the commander of the first army corps general kaltiyin remained in power troops including armenian enlisted men were not sent to the area when the security measures were lifted the armenians began to attack erzurum and its surroundings following the attacks came the plundering of the houses in the city and the villages and the murder of the owners of these houses plundering was widely committed by the soldiers this plunder was mainly committed by armenian soldiers who had remained in the rear during the war one day while passing through the streets on horseback a group of soldiers including an armenian soldier began to drag two old men of seventy years in a certain direction the roads were covered with mud and these people were dragging the two helpless turks through the mud and dirt it was understood later that all these were nothing but tricks and traps the turks who joined the gendarmarie soon changed their minds and withdrew the reason was that most of the turks who were on night patrol did not return and no one knew what had happened to them the turks who had been sent outside the city for labour began to disappear also finally the court martial which had been established for the trials of murderers and plunderers began to liquidate itself for fear that they themselves would be punished the incidents of murder and rape which had decreased began to occur more frequently sometime in january and february a leading turkish citizen haci bekir efendi from erzurum was killed one night at his home the commander in chief odiselidge gave orders to find murderers within three days the commander in chief has bitterly reminded the armenian intellectuals that disobedience among the armenian enlisted men had reached its highest point that they had insulted and robbed the people and half of the turks sent outside the city had not returned we learnt the details this incident from the commander in chief odishelidge they were as follows the killings were organized by the doctors and the employers and the act of killing was committed solely by the armenian renegades more than eight hundred unarmed and defenceless turks have been killed in erzincan large holes were dug and the defenceless turks were slaughtered like animals next to the holes later the murdered turks were thrown into the holes the armenian who stood near the hole would say when the hole was filled with the corpses seventy dead bodies well this hole can take ten more thus ten more turks would be cut into pieces thrown into the hole and when the hole was full it would be covered over with soil the armenians responsible for the act of murdering would frequently fill a house with eighty turks and cut their heads off one by one following the erzincan massacre the armenians began to withdraw towards erzurum the armenian renegades among those who withdrew to erzurum from erzincan raided the moslem villages on the road and destroyed the entire population together with the villages during the transportation of the cannons ammunition and the carriages that were outside the war area certain people were hired among the kurdish population to conduct the horse carriages while the travellers were passing through erzurum the armenians took advantage of the time when the russian soldiers were in their dwellings and began to kill the kurds they had hired when the russian soldiers heard the cries of the dying kurds they attempted to help them however the armenians threatened the russian soldiers by vowing that they would have the same fate if they intervened and thus prevented them from acting all these terrifying acts of slaughter were committed with hatred and loathing lieutenant medivani from the russian army described an incident that he witnessed in erzurum as follows an armenian had shot a kurd the kurd fell down but did not die the armenian attempted to force the stick in his hand into the mouth of the dying kurd however since the kurd had firmly closed his jaws in his agony the armenian failed in his attempt having seen this the armenian ripped open the abdomen of the kurd disembowelled him and finally killed him by stamping him with the iron heel of his boot odishelidge himself told us that all the turks who could not escape from the village of ilica were killed their heads had been cut off by axes he also told us that he had seen thousands of murdered children lieutenant colonel gryaznov who passed through the village of ilica three weeks after the massacre told us the following there were thousands of dead bodies hacked to pieces on the roads every armenian who happened to pass through these roads cursed and spat on the corpses in the courtyard of a mosque which was about x meter square dead bodies were piled to a height of centimeters among these corpses were men and women of every age children and old people the women s bodies had obvious marks of rape the genitals of many girls were filled with gun powder a few educated armenian girls who worked as telephone operators for the armenian troops were called by lieutenant colonel gryaznov to the courtyard of the mosque and he bitterly told them to be proud of what the armenians had done to the lieutenant colonel s disgusted amazement the armenian girls started to laugh and giggle instead of being horrified the lieutenant colonel had severely reprimanded those girls for their indecent behaviour when he told the girls that the armenians including women were generally more licentious than even the wildest animals and that their indecent and shameful laughter was the most obvious evidence of their inhumanity and barbarity before a scene that appalled even veteran soldiers the armenian girls finally remembered their sense of shame and claimed they had laughed because they were nervous an armenian contractor at the alaca communication zone command narrated the following incident which took place on february the armenians had nailed a turkish women to the wall they had cut out the women s heart and placed the heart on top of her head the great massacre in erzurum began on february the enlisted men of the artillery division caught and stripped people then they took these people into the bath to satisfy their lusts people among this group were able to save their lives as the result of my decisive attempts the others the armenians claimed were released when they learnt that i understood what was going on among those who organized this treacherous act was the envoy to the armenian officers karagodaviev today some turks were murdered on the streets on february some armenians have shot more than ten innocent moslems the russian soldiers who attempted to save these people were threatened with death meanwhile i imprisoned an armenian for murdering an innocent turk when an armenian officer told an armenian murderer that he would be hanged for his crime the killer shouted furiously how dare you hang an armenian for killing a turk in erzurum the armenians burned down the turkish market on february i heard that the entire population of tepekoy village situated within the artillery area had been totally annihilated on the same day when antranik entered erzurum i reported the massacre to him and asked him to track down the perpetrators of this horrible act however no result was achieved in the villages whose inhabitants had been massacred there was a natural silence on the night of february the armenians deceived the russians perpetrated a massacre and escaped for fear of the turkish soldiers later it was understood that this massacre had been based upon a method organized and planned in a circular the population had been herded in a certain place and then killed one by one the number of murders committed on that night reached three thousand it was the armenians who bragged to about the details of the massacre the armenians fighting against the turkish soldiers were so few in number and so cowardly that they could not even withstand the turkish soldiers who consisted of only five hundred people and two cannons for one night and ran away the leading armenians of the community could have prevented this massacre however the armenian intellectuals had shared the same ideas with the renegades in this massacre just as in all the others the lower classes within the armenian community have always obeyed the orders of the leading armenian figures and commanders i do not like to give the impression that all armenian intellectuals were accessories to these murders no for there were people who opposed the armenians for such actions since they understood that it would yield no result however such people were only a minority furthermore such people were considered as traitors to the armenian cause some have seemingly opposed the armenian murders but have supported the massacres secretly some on the other hand preferred to remain silent there were certain others who when accused by the russians of infamy would say the following you are russians you can never understand the armenian cause the armenians had a conscience they would commit massacres and then would flee in fear of the turkish soldiers serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
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re israeli terrorism in article rd eo a usenet ins cwru edu cy cleveland freenet edu anas omran writes in a previous article tclock orion oac uci edu tim clock says in article apr virginia edu ab z virginia edu andi beyer writes since one is also unlikely to get the truth from either arab or palestinian news outlets where do we go to understand to learn is one form of propoganda more reliable than another there are many neutral human rights organizations which always report on the situation in the o t a neutral organization would report on the situation in israel where the elderly and children are the victims of stabbings by hamas activists a neutral organization might also report that israeli arabs have full civil rights the israelis used to arrest and sometimes to kill some of these neutral reporters care to name names or is this yet another unsubstantiated slander so this is another kind of terrorism committed by the jews in palestine they do not allow fair and neutral coverage of the situation in palestine terrorism as you would know if you had a spine that allowed you to stand up is random attacks on civilians terorism includes such things as shooting a cripple and thowing him off the side of a boat because he happens to be jewish not allowing people to go where they are likely to be stabbed and killed like a certain lawyer killed last week is not terorism adam adam shostack adam das harvard edu if we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors we sure wouldn t waste them on members of congress john perry barlow
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re legality of the jewish purchase in article apr news columbia edu ayr cunixa cc columbia edu amir y rosenblatt writes in article apr bnr ca zbib bnr ca writes it was shafting on the part of the arab land owners for doing it without notifying their tenant farmers and for not being responsible enough to make provisions for them but rather just leaving them to their fate if a landlord sells an apartment building vacant to another landlord and fails to notify his tenants they just might find themselves out on the street all of a sudden the seller may be a scoundrel and a crook but this doesn t make the buyer a thief as israelis are so often called here on tpm it is interesting though that you acknowledge that the palestinians were shafted do many israelis or jews share your opinion do you absolve the purchaser from any ethical commitments just because it wasn t written down i don t know if others share this opinion it is mine and i m sure there are some who agree and some who don t the way i see it the fallahin were caught in circumstances beyond their control in that since they didn t own the land they didn t have a say of course now for the sake of the greater arab unity the arabs are angry that the land was sold to the jews an act that is illegal in jordan but when it happened it was just business the arabs that lived along the coast in western palestine later to be called israel were shafted by their brother arabs just as they ve been shafted for decades since then by their arab bretheren somehow though the arab call has continued to blame israel not only for the syrian landowner sell out in western palestine israel but even for the occupation of eastern palestine jordan by the hashemites this is just more of refusing to take blame for one s own actions infra structure etc imho the palestinians have grounds to contest the legality of the purchase say in world court if your job was eliminated in a corporate takeover you could probably go to court too you d probably lose though jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president
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re about this center for policy resea in article igc apc org center for policy research cpr igc apc org writes it seems to me that many readers of this conference are interested who is behind the center for polict research i will oblige trumpets please my name is elias davidsson icelandic citizen born in palestine my mother was thrown from germany because she belonged to the undesirables at that times this group was defined as jews she was forced to go to palestine due to many cynical factors forced to go to palestine how dreadful unlike other undesirables jews she wasn t forced to go into a gas chamber forced under a bulldozer thrown into a river forced into a medical experiment like a rat forced to march until she dropped dead burned to nothingness in a crematorium your mother was forced to go to palestine you have our deepest sympathies i have meanwhile settled in iceland years ago we are pleased to hear of your escape at least you won t have to suffer the same fate that your mother did and met many people who were thrown out from my homeland palestine your homeland palestine because of the same reason they belonged to the indesirables should we assume that you are refering here to jews who were kicked out of their homes in jerusalem during the jordanian occupation of east jerusalem these are the same people who are now being called thieves for re claiming houses that they once owned and lived in and never sold to anyone these people include my neighbors in jerusalem with the children of whom i played as child their crime theyare not jews i have never heard of not being a jew as a crime certainly in israel there is no such crime in some times and places being a jew is a crime but not being a jew my conscience does not accept such injustice period our brains do not accept your logic yet either my work for justice is done in the name of my principled opposition to racism and racial discrimination those who protest against such practices in arab countries have my support as long as their protest is based on a principled position but not as a tactic to deflect criticism from israel the way you ve written this you seem to accept criticism in the arab world unless it deflects criticism from israel in which case we have to presume you no longer support criticism of the arab world the struggle against discrimination and racism is universal look who s taling about discrimination now the center for policy research is a name i gave to those activities undertaken under my guidance in different domains and which command the support of many volunteers in iceland it is however not a formal institution and works with minimal funds be careful you are starting to sound like barfling professionally i am music teacher and composer i have published several pieces and my piano music is taught widely in europe i would hope that discussion about israel palestine be conducted in a more civilized manner calling names is not helpful good don t call yourself arf or the center for policy research either jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president
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re the u s holocaust memorial museum a costly and dangerous mistake in article c wpad k specialix com jim specialix com jim maurer writes arf genesis mcs com jack schmidling writes recognize the statement that these private funds were all tax exmpt in the donations are tax deductible like any donations to a non profit organization i ve donated money to a group restoring streetcars and it was tax deductible why don t you contribute to a group helping the homeless if you so concerned i do did contribute to the arf mortgage fund but when interest rates plumetted i just paid it off the problem is i couldn t convince congress to move my home to a nicer location on federal land btw even though the building is alleged to be funded by tax exempt private funds the maintainence and operating costs will be borne by taxpayers forever would anyone like to guess how much that will come to and tell us why this point is never mentioned js
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re seventh century a d armenian math problems a delightful message interesting and so kindly written thanks prof m kramer boston university
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re israeli terrorism in article bdad news service uci edu tclock orion oac uci edu tim clock writes in article amoss apr shuldig cs huji ac il amoss shuldig cs huji ac il amos shapira writes cy cleveland freenet edu anas omran writes eh could you please give me details about an event where a neutral observer was killed by purpose by an israeli soldier actually i m still trying to understand the self justifying rationale behind the recent murder of ian feinberg in gaza hate to be simple minded about this tim but i think its really very simple he was a dirty jew and the only good jew in some peoples mind is a dead jew thats what years of propaganda that fails to discriminate between jew and zionist will do thats what years of statements like the ones i ve appended will do to someones mind they make people sick they drag down political discourse to the point where killing your opponent is an honorable way to resolve a dispute what else can come of such demagogery peace adam arafat on political pluralism any palestinian leader who suggests ending the intifada exposes himself to the bullets of his own people and endangers his life the plo will know how to deal with him arafat kuwaiti news agency arafat on the massacre at tienamin square on behalf of the arab palestinian people their leadership and myself i take this opportunity to express extreme gratification that you were able to restore normal order after the recent incidents in people s china arafat in telegram sent to the head of the chinese communist party yassir arafat humanitarian open fire on the new jewish immigrants be they from the soviet union ethiopia or anywhere else it would be a disgrace if we did not lift a finger while herds of immigrants settle our territory i want you to shoot it makes no difference if they live in jaffa or jericho i give you explicit orders to open fire do everything to stop the flow of immigration yassir arafat al muharar lebanese weekly april yassir arafat on genocide when the arabs set off their volcano there will only be arabs in this part of the world our people will continue to fuel the torch of the revolution with rivers of blood until the whole of the occupied homeland is liberated yasser arafat ap adam shostack adam das harvard edu if we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors we sure wouldn t waste them on members of congress john perry barlow
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letter to president members of congress newspapers tv stations today marks the th anniversary of the armenian genocide of million turks and kurds in eastern anatolia and x soviet armenia the following letter which represents a small portion of the full text along with more than pages of historical documents scholarly sources eyewitness accounts and photographs was sent to president bill clinton members of congress editors program directors and columnists of major newspapers journals and radio tv stations for the th anniversary of the armenian genocide of million muslim people on april of every year the people of turkiye remember their dead they grieve for lost family and the lost homes of their grandfathers this year the turkish nation is mourning and praying again for her fallen heroes who gave their lives generously and with altruism so that the future generations may live on that anointed soil of the turkish land happily and prosperously letter during the years of world war i the x soviet armenian government has planned and perpetrated the genocide of the muslim people which not only took the lives of million muslim people but was also the method used to empty the turkish homeland of its inhabitants to this day turkish historic lands remain occupied by the x soviet armenia in order to cover up the fact of its usurpation of the historic turkish homeland which is the crux of turkish political demands fascist x soviet armenia continues its anti turkish policy in the following ways x soviet armenia denies the historical fact of the turkish genocide in order to shift international public opinion away from its political responsibility x soviet armenia employing asala sdpa arf terrorism and revisionism triangle attempts to call into question the veracity of the turkish genocide x soviet armenia has also implemented state sponsored terrorism through the asala sdpa arf terrorism and revisionism triangle in an attempt to silence the turkish people s vehement demands and protests using all its human financial and governmental resources x soviet armenia and its tools in the united states attempt to silence through terrorism bribery and other subversive methods non turkish supporters of the turkish cause be they political governmental and humanitarian using all the aforementioned methods the x soviet armenian government is attempting to neutralize the international diplomatic community from making the turkish case a contemporary issue yet despite the efforts of the x soviet armenian government and its terrorist and revisionist organizations in the last decades thanks to the struggle of those whose closest ones have been systematically exterminated by the armenians the international wall of silence on this issue has begun to collapse and consequently a number of governments and organizations have become supportive of the recognition of the turkish genocide with the full knowledge that the struggle for the turkish territorial demands are still in their initial stages the turkish and kurdish people will unflaggingly continue in this sacred struggle therefore the victims of the turkish genocide demand that the x soviet armenian government as the heirs of the armenian dictatorship recognize the turkish genocide that x soviet armenia return the historic homeland to the turkish and kurdish people that the x soviet armenian government make material reparations for their heinous and unspeakable crime to the victims of the turkish genocide that all world governments and especially the united states officially recognize the turkish genocide and turkish territorial rights and refuse to succumb to all armenian political pressure that the u s government free itself from the friendly position it has adopted towards its unreliable ally x soviet armenia and officially recognize the historical fact of the turkish genocide as well as be supportive of the pursuit of turkish territorial demands that the x soviet republics officially recognize the historical fact of the turkish genocide and include the cold blooded extermination of million muslim people in their history books the awareness of the turkish people of the necessity of solidarity in the efforts to pursue the turkish cause is seen by the victims of the first genocide of the th century as a positive step furthermore a new generation has risen equipped with a deep sense of commitment politically mature and conscious who determinedly pursue the turkish cause through all necessary means ranging from the political and diplomatic to the armed struggle therefore the victims of the turkish genocide call upon all muslims in the united states and canada to participate vigorously in the political cultural and religious activities of the th anniversary of the armenian genocide of million muslim people serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
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freeman watch your language asshole proline cosmo pro angmar internet cosmo pro angmar alfalfa com uucp uunet bu edu alphalpha pro angmar cosmo
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re final solution for gaza in article igc apc org center for policy research cpr igc apc org writes the gaza strip this tiny area of land with the highest population density in the world has been cut off from the world for weeks the israeli occupier has decided to punish the whole population of gaza some people by denying them the right to leave the strip and seek work in israel anyone who can repeate this choice piece of tripe without checking his her sources does not deserve to be believed the gaza strip does not possess the highest population density in the world in fact it isn t even close just one example will serve to illustrate the folly of this statement the city of hong kong has nearly ten times the population of the gaza strip in a roughly comparable land area the centers of numerous cities also possess comparable if not far higher population densities examples include manhattan island ny city sao paolo ciudad de mexico bombay need i go on the rest of mr davidsson s message is no closer to the truth than this oft repeated statement is how sad to see a model of decorum and tranquillity become like any other sport a battleground for rival ideologies to slug it out with glee tim rice chess eric s perlman perlman qso colorado edu center for astrophysics and space astronomy university of colorado boulder
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re israel s expansion ii organization aiken computation lab harvard university keywords in article pp a auvm american edu paul h pimentel pp a auvm american edu writes what gives isreal the right to keep jeruseleum it is the home of the muslim a s well as jewish religion among others israel has a right to keep jerusalem for many reasons they include the fact that the majority of the citizens are israeli the fact that israel maintains religious freedom for all people and the historical connection of judaism to jerusalem when jerusalem was devided by a jordanian invasion in the cease fire agreement included the right of individuals to visit religious shrines this cease fire agreement was violated by jordan who did not allow jews to visit holy sites under their control the jordanians also bulldozed every synagoge in the city they turned a jewish cemetary into a hotel and used the gravestones in their latrines israel has allowed individuals of all religions into jerusalem protected holy sites and demonstrated its fitness to control the city also i should point out that islam is not centered in jerusalem but has holy sites there the home of islam is mecca where all muslims should make a pilgramage the hajj unlike israeli jerusalem jews and christians are not allowed in saudi mecca adam adam shostack adam das harvard edu if we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors we sure wouldn t waste them on members of congress john perry barlow
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re israel s expansion ii in article apr vm mcgill ca b ha b ha musicb mcgill ca writes in article apr donau et tudelft nl avi duteinh et tudelft nl avi cohen stuart writes from article pp a auvm american edu by paul h pimentel pp a auvm american edu there is one big difference between israel and the arabs christians in this respect israel allows freedom of religion avi for your information islam permits freedom of religion there is no compulsion in religion does judaism permit freedom of religion i e are non jews recognized in judaism just wondering in islam there is no compulsion just a tax on dhimini in judaism non jews are allowed to do as they wish and there is no effort made to convert them adam shostack adam das harvard edu if we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors we sure wouldn t waste them on members of congress john perry barlow
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re seventh century a d armenian math problems in article r qn innd n flop engr orst edu koc rize ece orst edu cetin kaya koc responded to article apr urartu sdpa org dbd urartu sdpa org david davidian who wrote dd problem dd dd my father told me the following story during the famous wars between the dd armenians and the persians prince zaurak kamsarakan performed dd extraordinary heroic deeds three times in a single month he attacked the dd persian troops the first time he struck down half of the persian army dd the second time pursuing the persians he slaughtered one fourth of the dd soldiers the third time he destroyed one eleventh of the persian army dd the persians who were still alive numbering two hundred eighty fled to dd nakhichevan and so from this remainder find how many persian soldiers dd there were before the massacre koc answer a a good for you you win the prize a free trip to karabakh as an azeri soldier now calculate the odds of you coming back after trying to de populate the area of armenians koc corollary armenians strike slaughter destroy and massacre after koc all they are not as innocent as the asala network claims fact i didn t notice any mention of turks in shirak van or trebizon in this seventh century story fact these places were filled with armenians as of fact by the end of after the turkish genocide of the armenians there were no armenians left in shirak van or trebizon only turks and kurds in fact there were no pontus greeks left alive in trebizon either conclusion numbers don t lie in either case david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org how do we explain turkish troops on s d p a center for regional studies the armenian border when we can t p o box even explain cambridge ma turkish mp march
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re final solution for gaza in article igc apc org center for policy research cpr igc apc org writes other people have commented on most of this swill i figured i d add a few comments of my own the gaza strip this tiny area of land with the highest population density in the world has been cut off from the world for weeks hong kong and cairo both have higher population densities the israeli occupier has decided to punish the whole population of gaza some people by denying them the right to leave the strip and seek work in israel there is no fundamental right to work in another country and the closing of the strip is not a punishment it is a security measure to stop people from stabbing israelis the only help given to gazans by israeli jews only dozens of people is humanitarian assistance dozens minus one since one of them was stabbed to death a few days ago adam adam shostack adam das harvard edu if we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors we sure wouldn t waste them on members of congress john perry barlow
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re final solution in palestine in article apr thunder mcrcim mcgill edu ahmeda mcrcim mcgill edu ahmed abu abed writes in article hm apr angell cs brown edu hm cs brown edu harry mamaysky writes in article igc apc org center for policy research cpr igc apc org writes final solution for the gaza ghetto while israeli jews fete the uprising of the warsaw ghetto they repress by violent means the uprising of the gaza ghetto and attempt to starve the gazans the jews in the warsaw ghetto were fighting to keep themselves and their families from being sent to nazi gas chambers groups like hamas and the islamic jihad fight with the expressed purpose of driving all jews into the sea perhaps we should persuade jewish people to help these wnderful freedom fighters attain this ultimate goal maybe the freedom fighters will choose to spare the co operative jews is that what you are counting on elias the pity of murderers you say your mother was jewish how ashamed she must be of her son i am sorry mrs davidsson harry o k its my turn driving the jews into the sea i am sick and tired of this driving the jews into the sea sentance attributed to islamic movements and the plo it simply can t be proven as part of their plan this has been discussed before by several people on this net the statement is attributable either to hajj amin al husseini former grand mufti of jerusalem and the leader of the palestinian death squads during the war or to one of his chief henchmen it was not coined by b nai b rith or for that matter any jewish organization how sad to see a model of decorum and tranquillity become like any other sport a battleground for rival ideologies to slug it out with glee tim rice chess eric s perlman perlman qso colorado edu center for astrophysics and space astronomy university of colorado boulder
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re symbiotics idiots antisemitism in article igc apc org center for policy research cpr igc apc org writes from center for policy research cpr zionism and the holocaust by haim bresheeth the first point to note regarding the appropriation of the history of the holocaust by zionist propaganda is that zionism without anti semitism is impossible zionism agrees with the basic tenet of anti semitism namely that jews cannot live with non jews wrong zionism acknowledges the fact that anti semites exist and prevent jews from living in peace that does not mean we agree that jews are all greedy that jews kill christian children commited deicide or anything else we acknowledge that there are morons out there who do believe these things adam adam shostack adam das harvard edu if we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors we sure wouldn t waste them on members of congress john perry barlow
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re go hizbollah ii in article apr utxvms cc utexas edu ifaz utxvms cc utexas edu noam tractinsky writes paraphrasing a bit with every rocket that the hizbollah fires on the galilee they justify israel s holding to the security zone noam i only want to say that i agree with noam on this point and i hope that all sides stop targeting civilians basil
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happy birthday israel israel happy th birthday
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re final solution for gaza in article apr colorado edu perlman qso colorado edu eric s perlman writes in article igc apc org center for policy research cpr igc apc org writes the gaza strip this tiny area of land with the highest population density in the world has been cut off from the world for weeks the israeli occupier has decided to punish the whole population of gaza some people by denying them the right to leave the strip and seek work in israel anyone who can repeate this choice piece of tripe without checking his her sources does not deserve to be believed the gaza strip does not possess the highest population density in the world in fact it isn t even close just one example will serve to illustrate the folly of this statement the city of hong kong has nearly ten times the population of the gaza strip in a roughly comparable land area the centers of numerous cities also possess comparable if not far higher population densities examples include manhattan island ny city sao paolo ciudad de mexico bombay need i go on the rest of mr davidsson s message is no closer to the truth than this oft repeated statement is elias initial statement certain is hot air but it seems to be almost standard procedure around here to first throw out an absurb overstated image in order to add extra meaning to the posting s real point however his second statement is quite real the essential sealing off of gaza residents from the possibility of making a living has happened certainly the israeli had a legitimate worry behind the action they took but isn t that action a little draconian tim clock ph d graduate student uci tel department of politics and society fax university of california irvine home tel irvine ca
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re final solution in palestine in article apr thunder mcrcim mcgill edu ahmeda mcrcim mcgill edu ahmed abu abed writes in article hm apr angell cs brown edu hm cs brown edu harry mamaysky writes in article igc apc org center for policy research cpr igc apc org writes final solution for the gaza ghetto while israeli jews fete the uprising of the warsaw ghetto they repress by violent means the uprising of the gaza ghetto and attempt to starve the gazans the jews in the warsaw ghetto were fighting to keep themselves and their families from being sent to nazi gas chambers groups like hamas and the islamic jihad fight with the expressed purpose of driving all jews into the sea perhaps we should persuade jewish people to help these wnderful freedom fighters attain this ultimate goal maybe the freedom fighters will choose to spare the co operative jews is that what you are counting on elias the pity of murderers you say your mother was jewish how ashamed she must be of her son i am sorry mrs davidsson harry o k its my turn driving the jews into the sea i am sick and tired of this driving the jews into the sea sentance attributed to islamic movements and the plo it simply can t be proven as part of their plan pro israeli activists repeat it like parrots without checking its authenticity since it was coined by bnai brith what hamas and islamic jihad believe in as far as i can get from the arab media is an islamic state that protects the rights of all its inhabitants under koranic law this would be a reversal of the situation in which the jews in palestine took control of the land and its mostly muslim inhabitants however whoever committed crimes against humanity torture blowing up their homes murders must be treated and tried as a war criminal the political thought of these movements shows that a freedom of choice will be given to the jews in living under the new law or leaving to the destintion of their choice as for the plo i am at a loss to explain what is going inside arafat s mind although their political thinking seems far fetched with israel acting as a true super power in the region the islamic movements are using the same weapon the jews used to establish their state religion ahmed forget the syntax ahmed and focus on the semnatics the fact is that the plo does not recognize israel s right to exist this is perfectly obvious from the plo covenant cairo the covenant calls for the destruction of the zionist entity as far as i know the israel destruction clauses still exist in the document which specifies the purpose for the existence of the plo if you would like i can post the relevant caluses now the hamas ideal is far more radical it seems i know it has been posted here several times and while i do not have a copy of it i am sure that someone does and he or she of course would be more than happy to repost it regardless of phrasing groups like hamas and the hezbollah and even the newly moderate and politically correct plo have at the very heart of their ideologies the need for the destrcution of israel it just seems to me that mr davidsson s suggestion that jews support people envolved in these organizations is not a particularly appealing one to many jews harry
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re go hizbollah ii in article apr yuma acns colostate edu bh lance colostate edu writes in article apr utxvms cc utexas edu ifaz utxvms cc utexas edu noam tractinsky writes paraphrasing a bit with every rocket that the hizbollah fires on the galilee they justify israel s holding to the security zone noam i only want to say that i agree with noam on this point and i hope that all sides stop targeting civilians basil absolutely i m sure that civilians on both sides would be pleased if the fighters military guerilla whatever would just take their argument elsewhere find an unpopulated area somewhere and slug it out at that point we will all breath a sigh of relief and cheer for our side in the struggle tim clock ph d graduate student uci tel department of politics and society fax university of california irvine home tel irvine ca
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sea what sea we said rivers in article apr thunder mcrcim mcgill edu ahmeda mcrcim mcgill edu ahmed abu abed writes i am sick and tired of this driving the jews into the sea sentance attributed to islamic movements and the plo it simply can t be proven as part of their plan ok i ll admit it i can t find a quote with my meager online resources but i did find this little gem when the arabs set off their volcano there will only be arabs in this part of the world our people will continue to fuel the torch of the revolution with rivers of blood until the whole of the occupied homeland is liberated yasser arafat ap so ahmed is right there was nothing about driving jews into the sea just a bit of ethnic cleansing and a river of blood is this an improvement adam adam shostack adam das harvard edu if we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors we sure wouldn t waste them on members of congress john perry barlow
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re the israeli press in article benali alcor benali alcor concordia ca ilyess b bdira writes of course you never read arab media i don t though when i was in israel i did make a point of listening to jtv news as well as monte carlo radio in the united states i generally read the nyt and occasionally a mainstream israeli newpaper i read arab israeli jer post and this network is more than enough and western american french and british reports and i can say that if we give israel and arabs on the bias scale of course you can switch the polarities israeli newspapers will get either a or american leading newspapers and tv news range from to yes there are some that are more israelis than israelis the montreal suburban a local free newspaper probably is closer to kahane s views than some israeli right wing newspapers british range from neutral to french that iknow of of course range from afro french magazines to arab official media range from to egyptian to in sa why no because they do not want to overdo it and stir people against israel and therefore against them since they are doing nothing what you may not be taking into account is that the jp is no longer representative of the mainstream in israel it was purchased a few years ago and in the battle for control most of the liberal and left wing reporters walked out the new owner stated in the past more than once that the jp s task should be geared towards explaining and promoting israel s position more than attacking the gov t likud at the time the paper that i would recommend reading being middle stream and factual is ha aretz or at least this was the case two years ago the average bias of what you read would be probably around while that of the average american would be the same if they do not read or read the new york times and similar news makers and if they read some other relatively less biased newspapers and what about the nat l enquirer but seriously if one were to read some of the leftist newspapers one could arrive at other conclusions the information you received was highly selective and extrapolating from it is a bad move shai guday stealth bombers os software engineer thinking machines corp the winged ninja of the skies cambridge ma
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re happy birthday israel in article c r f s news cso uiuc edu eshneken ux cso uiuc edu edward a shnekendorf writes israel happy th birthday may you and your neighbors know peace even before you see
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re seventh century a d armenian math problems koc rize ece orst edu cetin kaya koc writes problem my father told me the following story during the famous wars between the armenians and the persians prince zaurak kamsarakan performed extraordinary heroic deeds three times in a single month he attacked the persian troops the first time he struck down half of the persian army the second time pursuing the persians he slaughtered one fourth of the soldiers the third time he destroyed one eleventh of the persian army the persians who were still alive numbering two hundred eighty fled to nakhichevan and so from this remainder find how many persian soldiers there were before the massacre answer a a corollary armenians strike slaughter destroy and massacre after all they are not as innocent as the asala network claims hmm turks sure know how to keep track of deaths but they seem to lose count around million hovig
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re to be exact million muslims were exterminated by the armenians ac in zuma uucp sera zuma uucp serdar argic pl linden positive eng sun com peter van der linden pl so did the turks kill the armenians ac so did the jews kill the germans ac you even make armenians laugh ac an appropriate analogy with the jewish holocaust might be the ac systematic extermination of the entire muslim population of ac the independent republic of armenia which consisted of at ac least percent of the population of that republic the ac memoirs of an armenian army officer who participated in and ac eye witnessed these atrocities was published in the u s in ac with the title men are like that other references abound typical mutlu pvdl asks if x happened the response is that y happened even if we grant that the armenians did do what cosar accuses them of doing this has no bearing on whether the turks did what they are accused of while i can understand how an ai could be this stupid i can t understand how a human could be such a moron as to either let such an ai run amok or to compose such pointless messages himself i do not expect any followup to this article from argic to do anything to alleviate my puzzlement but maybe i ll see a new line from his list of insults this article is supplied without longbox and uses recycled words characters and ideas warren nysernet org
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re final solution in palestine in article hm apr barney cs brown edu hm cs brown edu harry mamaysky writes in article apr thunder mcrcim mcgill edu ahmeda mcrcim mcgill edu ahmed abu abed writes driving the jews into the sea i am sick and tired of this driving the jews into the sea sentance attributed to islamic movements and the plo it simply can t be proven as part of their plan proven maybe not but it can certainly be verified beyond a reasonable doubt this statement and statements like it are a matter of public record before the six day war i think nasser and some other arab leaders were broadcasting these statements on arab radio you might want to check out some old newspapers ahmed what hamas and islamic jihad believe in as far as i can get from the arab media is an islamic state that protects the rights of all its inhabitants under koranic law i think if you take a look at the hamas covenant written in you might get a different impression i have the convenant in the original arabic with a translation that i ve verified with arabic speakers the document is rife with calls to kill jews and spread islam and so forth adam schwartz
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re rejoinder questions to israelis in a previous article cpr igc apc org center for policy research says today finally if israel wants peace why can t it declare what it considers its legitimate and secure borders which might be a base for negotiations having all the above facts in mind one cannot blame arab countries to fear israeli expansionism as a number of wars have proved oh yeah israel was really ready to expand its borders on the holiest day of the year yom kippur when the arabs attacked in oh wait you chose to omit that war perhaps because it supports the exact opposite to the point you are trying to make i don t think that it s because it was the war that hit israel the hardest also in it was egypt not israel who kicked out the un force in it was the arabs who refused to accept the existance of israel based on the borders set by the united nations in egypt closed off the red sea to israeli shipping a clear antagonistic act and in the attack was a response to years of constant shelling by terrorist organizations from the golan heights children were being murdered all the time by terrorists and israel finally retaliated nowhere do i see a war that israel started so that the borders could be expanded steve internet aa freenet carleton ca fidonet mossad qube ocunix on ca my opinions are not associated with anything including my head
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re rejoinder questions to israelis in a previous article cpr igc apc org center for policy research says your answer to the question concerning rights to return conflicts with what i was told namely that hundreds of thousands of non jews who left for some reason or other the area under israel control during the war of were prevented from returning for the sole reason they were not jews jews who also left for example to europe to avoid the clashes were allowed to return how can you justify such discrimination if this is true is the mere fact of a person leaving area of combat to seek refuge somewhere else a reason for stripping him of his right to live in his homeland you are conveniently ommitting the fact that the arab governments told the arab citizens of israel to leave israel join with the arab armies so that after what they felt like an assured victory occured these arabs could return to their former homes reclaim them as well as anything else they wanted that belonged to jews when the arabs lost israel was left with a bunch of people who has just tried to kill them who now wanted back into the country as citizens what would you have done let them in so they could kill jews israel sees those arabs who stayed as citizens because they were loyal to israel during the war and didn t leave of course some arabs could have left to avoid the fighting but distinguishing between the two is impossible therefore a decision was made based on secuturity of the country you maintain that there are some israeli arabs living in israeli kibbutzim i wonder how many and where there is very little evidence available about that as much as i know many arabs are working for kibbutzim even for many years but are not accepted as members could it be that kibbutzim do not want arabs no kibbutz that i have ever visited has any employees unless they had to hire some people for the restaurants hotels etc if there weren t enough people on the kibbutz to do them in such cases they are paid properly if a kibbutz turns away an arab i have never seen or heard of this but it reflects only on the membership comittee of that kibbutz not the whole kibbutz movement to keep it what way i am certain that if only religious communities in the u s would be asked they would gladly abolish civil marriage so that people would depend upon rabbis and priests to officiate marriages but israel has always been ruled by a secular majority your answer is not satisfactory this just shows how ignorant you are of israeli politics although the major parties in israel aren t religious however not totally secular due to the format of the government coalition the religious parties have always had a lot of pull since they were needed to form a majority coalition in fact from what i heard the present government is the least influenced by the religious parties in the existance of israel israel cannot be called a secular state for instace haifa is the only city in the country except for maybe some arab cities where buses run on the jewish sabbath there are many other examples of religion in israel marriages in israel are not contolled by the state but by rabbis and priests obviously your disbelief of this fact sheds some light of your ignorance of the country you claim to know so much about steve internet aa freenet carleton ca fidonet mossad qube ocunix on ca my opinions are not associated with anything including my head
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rejoinder questions to israelis from center for policy research cpr subject rejoinder questions to israelis to shaig think com subject ten questions to israelis dear shai your answers to my questions are unsatisfactory in the answer to my first question concerning the nonexistence of israeli nationality your answer conflicts with information i have received from other quarters according to which there are two distinct categories of classifying israelis citizenship ezrahut and nationality le um the former is used on passports etc and the later for daily identification in israeli society i am told that people in israel have to carry their id cards at all times and present them at many public places almost every day these id cards make clear who the holder is a jew or an arab you maintain that this mainly because of religious services provided but do you really believe that this is the reason could you provide evidence that this is the case and that it serves no other purpose in the answer to my second questions concerning the fact that israel has no fixed borders you state that israel s borders were shaped and reshaped by both war and peace according to what i read the first zionists in the beginning of the century had plans for the jewish state to extend into what is lebanon and into transjordan jordan i also read that it was the express wish of ben gurion to not declare israel s borders when israel was established as this might restrict israel s opportunities for later expansion israel often claims it right of existence on the fact that jews lived there years ago or that god promised the land to them but according to biblical sources the area god promised would extend all the way to iraq and what were the borders in biblical times which israel considers proper to use today finally if israel wants peace why can t it declare what it considers its legitimate and secure borders which might be a base for negotiations having all the above facts in mind one cannot blame arab countries to fear israeli expansionism as a number of wars have proved your answer to my third question is typical of a stalinist public official i don t think your answer is honest you refer me to vanunu s revelations about israel s nuclear arsenal without evaluating the truthfullness of his revelations now if he said the truth then why should he been punished and if he lied why should he be punished i would appreciate more honesty somebody provided an answer to the fourth question concerning hidden prisoners in israeli prisons he posted an article from ma ariv documenting such cases it seems that such prisoners do exist in israel what do you think about that you imply that my questions show bias and are formulated in such a way to cast aspersions upon israel such terms have often been used by the soviet union against dissidents they call the soviet union into disrepute if my questions are not disturbing they would not call forth such hysterical answers my questions are clearly provocative but they are meant to seek facts i would be very happy if you could convince me that what i am told about israel were just fabrications but alas you have failed to do so i suspect that you fear the truth and an open and honest discussion this is a sign of weakness not of strength i hope you will muster the courage to seek the full truth
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re rejoinder questions to israelis from center for policy research cpr subject rejoinder questions to israelis dear josh i appreciate the fact that you sought to answer my questions having said that i am not totally happy with your answers you did not fully answer my question whether israeli id cards identify the holders as jews or arabs you imply that u s citizens must identify themselves by race is that true or are just trying to mislead the reader do you know of any democratic country where people are asked to reveal their ethnical or religious identity to any public official who so requests the answer to the second question is evasive there are all kinds of maps issued they are not equivalent to state policy you did not respond to my question your answer to the third question israeli nuclear arsenal is interesting you say that israeli probably stocks nuclear weapons what evidence have you for maintaining that my fourth question was answered by someone else who posted a ma ariv article documenting such cases i did not ask about cases like vanunu everybody knew he was tried and imprisoned but about those about whom nobody even knows that they have been tried and imprisoned thanks for clarifying the question concerning the legal status of the inhabitants of the occupied territories from it i understand that there are two sets of laws in these ares one for the occupier civil law and one for the occupied military law the law allows israeli arabs to settle in hebron it seems if so why doesn t it allow hebron arabs to settle in israel your answer to the question concerning rights to return conflicts with what i was told namely that hundreds of thousands of non jews who left for some reason or other the area under israel control during the war of were prevented from returning for the sole reason they were not jews jews who also left for example to europe to avoid the clashes were allowed to return how can you justify such discrimination if this is true is the mere fact of a person leaving area of combat to seek refuge somewhere else a reason for stripping him of his right to live in his homeland somebody answered my question regarding y rabin signing an order for ethnical cleansing in according to that information y rabin signed the order for the expulsion of all inhabitants of lydda and ramleh about people these expulsions were helped by massacres of civilians and other atrocities which remind bosnia i was referred to a book by israeli journalist benny goodman called the origin of the palestinian refugee problem published by cambridge university press is this book available in your library you maintain that there are some israeli arabs living in israeli kibbutzim i wonder how many and where there is very little evidence available about that as much as i know many arabs are working for kibbutzim even for many years but are not accepted as members could it be that kibbutzim do not want arabs my question about the lack of civil marriage in israel was whether it is true that the israeli legislator intended to discourage intermarriage you did not address this question but evaded it by saying that the entire religious establishment wants to keep it what way i am certain that if only religious communities in the u s would be asked they would gladly abolish civil marriage so that people would depend upon rabbis and priests to officiate marriages but israel has always been ruled by a secular majority your answer is not satisfactory i would be glad to have some more input from you after these comments elias
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re israel s expansion ii waldo cybernet cse fau edu writes ab z virginia edu andi beyer writes waldo cybernet cse fau edu writes ab z virginia edu andi beyer writes first of all i never said the holocaust i said before the holocaust i m not ignorant of the holocaust and know more about nazi germany than most people maybe including you uh oh the first sign of an argument without merit the stating of one s qualifications in an area if you know something about nazi germany show it if you don t shut up simple as that i don t think the suffering of some jews during wwii justifies the crimes commited by the israeli government any attempt to call civil liberterians like myself anti semetic is not appreciated all jews suffered during wwii not just our beloved who perished or were tortured we all suffered second the name calling was directed against you not civil libertarians in general your name dropping of a fancy sounding political term is yet another attempt to cite qualifications in order to obfuscate your glaring unpreparedness for this argument go back to the minors junior all humans suffered emotionally some jews and many others suffered physically it is sad that people like you are so blinded by emotions that they can t see the facts thanks for calling me names it only assures me of what kind of ignorant people i am dealing with i included your letter since i thought it demonstrated my point more than anything i could write when you re willing to actually support something you say with fact or argument rather than covering up your own inadequacies with feigned offense let me know otherwise back to your own league son i have never seen such immaturity among semitophiles this andi beyer character shows no signs of anti semitism yet because he deviates from the norm of accepted opinion you attack him why did not anyone venture to answer andi s question in an intelligent and unoffending manner the only ones guilty here of not backing up there viewpoints with fact are the israelophiles now will we please start having some intelligent conversation you all are an insult to you race assuming you are also semitic now i have a comment concerning israeli terrorism during the s and s the hirgun and other branch off militant groups did fight the british do get them out of palestine yet i fail to see how this israeli form of terrorism was better than the terrorism practiced now by the arabs these jewish terrorist groups killed innocent british soldiers but not only thta also killed many jews who were in favor of a compromise with the palestinians in addition they massacred an entire palestinian village in contributing to the exodus of the frightened palestinians who feared their very lives i mention this not because i m anti semitic i m part jewish but because this self righteousness on the part of the israelites pisses me off so i m not as critical of the palestinians because they were indeed screwed over by the jews it s a damn shame that the palestinians had to pay for german and european anti semitism pissed off at immature closeminded self righteous semites
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re israeli terrorism eshneken ux cso uiuc edu writes ab z virginia edu andi beyer writes i think the israeli press might be a tad bit biased in reporting the events i doubt the propaganda machine of goering reported accurately on what was happening in germany it is interesting that you are basing the truth on israeli propaganda if you consider israeli reporting of events in israel to be propoganda then consider the washington post s handling of american events to be propoganda too what makes the israeli press inherently biased in your opinion i wouldn t compare it to nazi propoganda either unless you want to provide some evidence of israeli inaccuracies or parallels to nazism i suggest you keep your mouth shut i m sick and tired of all you anti semites comparing israel to the nazis and yes in my opinion if you compare israel to the nazis you are an anti semite because you know damn well it isn t true and you are just trying to discredit israel ed you know ed you re right andi shouldn t be comparing israel to the nazis the israelis are much worse than the nazis ever were anyway the nazis did a lot of good for germany and they would have succeeded if it weren t for the damn jews the holocaust never happened anyway ample evidence given by george schafer at harvard dept of history and even by randolph higgins at nyu have shown that the holocaust was just a semitic conspiracy created to obtain sympathy to piush for the creation of israel
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re israeli terrorism in a previous article adam endor uucp adam shostack says in article bdad news service uci edu tclock orion oac uci edu tim clock writes in article amoss apr shuldig cs huji ac il amoss shuldig cs huji ac il amos shapira writes cy cleveland freenet edu anas omran writes eh could you please give me details about an event where a neutral observer was killed by purpose by an israeli soldier there are many cases but i do not remeber names the isralis shot and killed a un observer in gaza in the first half of intifada i believe that most of the world has seen pictures of israeli soldiers who were breaking the cameras of the reporters kicking reporters out confiscating cassettes and showing reporters militery orders preventing them from going to hot areas to pick pictures and make reports
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re rejoinder questions to israelis although i realize that principle is not one of your strongest points i would still like to know why do do not ask any question of this sort about the arab countries if you want to continue this think tank charade of yours your fixation on israel must stop you might have to start asking the same sort of questions of arab countries as well you realize it would not work as the arab countries treatment of jews over the last several decades is so bad that your fixation on israel would begin to look like the biased attack that it is everyone in this group recognizes that your stupid center for policy research is nothing more than a fancy name for some bigot who hates israel why don t you try being honest about your hatred of israel i have heard that your family once lived in israel but the members of your family could not cut the competition there is this true about your family is this true about you is this actually not about israel but is really a personal vendetta why are you not the least bit objective about israel do you think that the name of your phony baloney center hides your bias in the least get a clue mr davidsson haven t you realized yet that when you post such stupidity in this group you are going to incur answers from people who are armed with the truth haven t you realized that a piece of selective data here and a piece there does not make up a truth haven t you realized that you are in over your head the people who read this group are not as stupid as you would hope or need them to be this is not the place for such pseudo analysis you will be continually ripped to shreds until you start to show some regard for objectivity or you can continue to show what an anti israel zealot you are trying to disguise your bias behind a pompous name like the center for policy research you ought to know that you are a laughing stock your center is considered a joke and until you either go away or make at least some attempt to be objective you will have a place of honor among the clowns bigots and idiots of usenet
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re israeli terrorism backon vms huji ac il writes in article rd eo a usenet ins cwru edu cy cleveland freenet edu ana anas of course the yahud needed blood for the matza after all passover was last month josh were you in such a hurry we celebrated pesach this month but only with xtian blood muslim blood hasn t been declared kosher le pesach by our hechscher not yet manfredo tichauer m email tichauer valpso hanse de opitzstrasse voice hamburg germany fax
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re israeli terrorism just kidding
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re final solution for gaza in article bdc news service uci edu tclock orion oac uci edu tim clock writes certainly the israeli had a legitimate worry behind the action they took but isn t that action a little draconian what alternative would you suggest be taken to safeguard the lives of israeli citizens adam adam shostack adam das harvard edu if we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors we sure wouldn t waste them on members of congress john perry barlow
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re israel s expansion ii ab z virginia edu andi beyer writes i m not ignorant of the holocaust and know more about nazi germany than most people maybe including you you really belong to the of ignorants in usa who don t know what the holocaust shoa should be the real word was first you write in message id apr virginia edu date sat apr gmt i think the israeli press might be a tad bit biased in reporting the events i doubt the propaganda machine of goering and later as somebody informed you about your gross mistake you write in message id apr virginia edu date sun apr gmt first let me correct myself in that it was goerbels and not goering airforce who ran the nazi propaganda machine instead of joseph goebbels and you dare to say that you know more about nazi germany than most people maybe including us i m sure you learned the history of nazi germany and austria from your family what i resent is ignorant statements that call people names when they disagree with your position opposing the atrocities commited by the israeli governement hardly qualifies as anti semitism if you think name calling is a valid form of argument in intellectual circles you need to get out more often trying to make comparisons between israels politics and nazi german austrian politics shows only your degree of ignorance high intellect low humanity none and antisemitism average i respect anybody who dissagrees with me as long as he respects me and discusses in a civilized manner i would never say that anybody that critizises israel and or its politics is an antisemite except he uses antisemitic vocabulary terminology demagogy israel is not a perfect country and its politicians also commits errors even some of them are corrupt like politicians in any other country but they carry a huge burden to care for the safety of all its citizens and that is really not an easy task in a country that is surrounded by enemies who only expect that israel commits the one big error and wipe the country and its jewish citizens plus the so called collaborators arabs that wanted to live in peace with their jewish neighbours of the map as i said israel is not a perfect country but it is the only democracy in the whole middle east and the only country in the world where jews from everywhere can have a refuge in case of persecutions in the countries they are living our long history has taught us that we cannot rely on non jewish nations and its governments as soon as there are more or les big social economical political problems in any country the first ones that pay for the broken glasses are the jews and later the other minorities of the country i don t think the suffering of some jews during wwii justifies the crimes commited by the israeli government any attempt to call civil liberterians like myself anti semetic is not appreciated this is really outrageous murdered jews besides the thousands who survived the shoa in some way or another and the rest of the living ones mourning for all of them i don t know what you call a civil libertarian never heard about them but i know only one thing if all of them think like you do it then civil libertarians is a new denomination for antisemites may other civil libertarians come to word to this group so that we can learn if a beyer and me are right that civil libertarians are antisemites or that i m wrong and he is missusing that word btw i couldn t care less for what andi beyer appreciates manfredo tichauer m email tichauer valpso hanse de opitzstrasse voice hamburg germany fax
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re the u s holocaust memorial museum a costly and dangerous mistake in article smith apr minerva harvard edu smith minerva harvard edu steven smith writes dgannon techbook techbook com dan gannon writes the u s holocaust memorial museum a costly and dangerous mistake by theodore j o keefe holocaust revisionism theodore j o keefe is an editor with the institute for historical review educated at harvard university according to the harvard alumni directory mr o keefe failed to graduate you may decide for yourselves if he was indeed educated anywhere steven smith is any education a prerequisite for employment at ihr is it true that ihr really stands for institution of hysterical reviews curious minds would like to know hap omnia extares
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re rejoinder questions to israelis in article igc apc org center for policy research cpr igc apc org writes from center for policy research cpr subject rejoinder questions to israelis to shaig think com subject ten questions to israelis dear shai in the answer to my first question concerning the nonexistence of israeli nationality your answer conflicts with information i have received from other quarters according to which there are two distinct categories of classifying israelis citizenship ezrahut and nationality le um the former is used on passports etc and the later for daily identification in israeli society i am told that people in israel have to carry their id cards at all times and present them at many public places almost every day these id cards make clear who the holder is a jew or an arab you maintain that this mainly because of religious services provided but do you really believe that this is the reason could you provide evidence that this is the case and that it serves no other purpose a number of points you are making assumptions about the manner in which the cards are used true by law all residents citizens and tourists must carry a form of identification with them for citizens the standard id is the id card the purpose this serves on a daily basis wherein they are presented at public places is for the purpose of identifying the bearer this takes place in banks cashing checks post offices registered mail and such etc quite frankly it was rare that i ever had to present my id card for such activities more than once per week there is no law or requirement that forces people to wave their id cards in public furthermore none of the services i outlined discriminate against the bearer in any manner by having access to this information the only case that i can think of in which the le um field might be taken into account is during interaction with the police based upon the scenario in general though arab citizens are clearly recognizable as are non arabs your argument therefore becomes moot unless you can provide an example of how this field is being used to discriminate against them officially in the answer to my second questions concerning the fact that israel has no fixed borders you state that israel s borders were shaped and reshaped by both war and peace according to what i read the first zionists in the beginning of the century had plans for the jewish state to extend into what is lebanon and into transjordan jordan i also read that it was the express wish of ben gurion to not declare israel s borders when israel was established as this might restrict israel s opportunities for later expansion israel often claims it right of existence on the fact that jews lived there years ago or that god promised the land to them but according to biblical sources the area god promised would extend all the way to iraq and what were the borders in biblical times which israel considers proper to use today finally if israel wants peace why can t it declare what it considers its legitimate and secure borders which might be a base for negotiations having all the above facts in mind one cannot blame arab countries to fear israeli expansionism as a number of wars have proved i take issue with your assertions i think that arab countries do know that they have nothing to fear from israeli expansionism militarily israel is not capable of holding onto large tracts of land under occupation to a hostile armed and insurgent population for a sustained period of time as is the intifada is heavily taxing the israeli economy proof of this can be seen in the israeli withdrawal from lebanon israeli troops pulled back from the awali and later from the litani in order to control the minimal strip needed to keep towns out of range of katyusha missile fire public opinion in israel has turned towards settling the intifada via territorial concessions the israel public is sufferring from battle fatigue of sorts and the gov t is aware of it with regards to borders let me state the following i may not agree with the manner in which negotiations are being held however the crux of the matter is that everyone either makes or refrains from stating a starting position the arab parties have called for total withdrawal and a return to pre borders if israel were to state large borders the negotiations might never get under way if israel were to state smaller borders then the arab countries might try and force even smaller borders during the negotiations i think that leaving the matter to be settled by negotiations and peace treaties is infinitely more realistic and sensible your answer to my third question is typical of a stalinist public official i don t think your answer is honest you refer me to vanunu s revelations about israel s nuclear arsenal without evaluating the truthfullness of his revelations now if he said the truth then why should he been punished and if he lied why should he be punished i would appreciate more honesty your statement is typical of the simple minded naivety of a center for policy research whether or not all of vanunu s revelations were true has no bearing on the fact that some were for disclosing state secrets after having signed contracts and forms with the understanding that said secrets are not to be made public one should be punished as to which were and which weren t i am under no moral obligation to disclose that quite the reverse in fact he was taken to court tried and found guilty you may take issue with a number of things but clearly you have no understanding of the concept of secrets of state something which every democratic govt has somebody provided an answer to the fourth question concerning hidden prisoners in israeli prisons he posted an article from ma ariv documenting such cases it seems that such prisoners do exist in israel what do you think about that i noticed that he was documenting the fact that such prisoners could exist more than he documented the fact that they do exist the clu noted which you evidently did not pay attention to that they know of no such reports or cases i am sorry to tell you but in a country of mill as tightly knit as israel even if the matter of the arrest was not made public within a relatively short time frame most people would know about it my own feelings are that the matter of the arrest should be made public unless a court order is issued allowing a delay of x hours this would be granted only if a judge could be convinced that an announcement would cause irreparable harm to the ongoing investigation you imply that my questions show bias and are formulated in such a way to cast aspersions upon israel such terms have often been used by the soviet union against dissidents they call the soviet union into disrepute if my questions are not disturbing they would not call forth such hysterical answers my questions are clearly provocative but they are meant to seek facts i would be very happy if you could convince me that what i am told about israel were just fabrications but alas you have failed to do so i suspect that you fear the truth and an open and honest discussion this is a sign of weakness not of strength well i am sorry to say that your questions are slanted such questions are often termed tabloid journalism and are not disturbing because they avoid any attempt at objectivity such questions were often used during the mccarthy era as a basis for the witch hunts that took place then to use your own example these questions might have been lifted from the format used by stalinist prosecutors that were looking for small bits of evidence that they could distort and portray as a larger and dirtier picture my answers were not any more hysterical than the questions themselves the problem is not that the q s were provocative it was that they were selective in their fact seeking you fall into the same category of those who seek yes no answers when the real answer is of sorts i suspect that as long as the answers to these questions is not an unequivocal no you would remain unsatified and choose to interprete them as you see fit a sign of strength is the ability to look you remind me of those mistaken environmentalists who once advocated culling wolves because of the cruelty to deer only to find that they had broken the food chain and wreaked havoc upon the very environment they sought to protect the color blindness you exhibit is a true sign of weakness i hope you will muster the courage to seek the full truth ditto shai guday stealth bombers os software engineer thinking machines corp the winged ninja of the skies cambridge ma
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the wholesale extermination of the muslim population by the armenians in article c yjii e b blaze cs jhu edu arromdee jyusenkyou cs jhu edu ken arromdee writes but some of this is verifiable information for instance the person who knows about the buggy product may be able to tell you how to reproduce the bug on your own but still fears retribution if it were to be known that he was the one who told the public how to do so typical arromdian of the asala sdpa arf terrorism and revisionism triangle well does it change the fact that during the period of to the armenian government ordered incited assisted and participated in the genocide of million muslim people because of race religion and national origin armenians did slaughter the entire muslim population of van armenians did slaughter of muslim population of bitlis armenians did slaughter of muslim population of erzurum armenians did slaughter of muslim population of diyarbakir armenians did slaughter of muslim population of mamuretulaziz armenians did slaughter of muslim population of sivas armenians did slaughter the entire muslim population of the x soviet armenia mccarthy j muslims and minorities the population of ottoman anatolia and the end of the empire new york university press new york pp karpat k ottoman population the university of wisconsin press hovannisian r g armenia on the road to independence university of california press berkeley and los angeles pp shaw s j on armenian collaboration with invading russian armies in history of the ottoman empire and modern turkey volume ii reform revolution republic the rise of modern turkey london cambridge university press pp gochnak armenian newspaper published in the united states may source adventures in the near east by a rawlinson jonathan cape bedford square london first published pages memoirs of a british officer who witnessed the armenian genocide of million muslim people p first paragraph in those moslem villages in the plain below which had been searched for arms by the armenians everything had been taken under the cloak of such search and not only had many moslems been killed but horrible tortures had been inflicted in the endeavour to obtain information as to where valuables had been hidden of which the armenians were aware of the existence although they had been unable to find them p first paragraph the arrival of this british brigade was followed by the announcement that kars province had been allotted by the supreme council of the allies to the armenians and that announcement having been made the british troops were then completely withdrawn and armenian occupation commenced hence all the trouble for the armenians at once commenced the wholesale robbery and persecution of the muslem population on the pretext that it was necessary forcibly to deprive them of their arms in the portion of the province which lies in the plains they were able to carry out their purpose and the manner in which this was done will be referred to in due course serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
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re minority abuses in greece in article c b g m panix com mpoly panix com michael s polymenakos writes well zumabot claims just the opposite that greeks are not allowing turks to exit the country now explain this the number of turks in thrace has steadily risen from in to while the greeks of dr goebels thought that a lie repeated enough times could finally be believed i have been observing that poly has been practicing goebels rule quite loyally poly s audience is mostly made of greeks who are not allowed to listen to turkish news however in today s informed world greek propagandists can only fool themselves for instance those who lived in will remember the tv news they watched and the newspapers they read and the younger generation can read the american newspapers of july and august to find out what really happened there are in turkiye the greek hospital the greek girls lycee alumni association the principo islands greek benevolent society the greek medical foundation the principo greek orphanage foundation the yovakimion greek girls lycee foundation and the fener greek men s lycee foundation as for greece the longstanding use of the adjective turkish in titles and on signboards is prohibited the greek courts have ordered the closure of the turkish teachers association the komotini turkish youth association and the ksanti turkish association on grounds that there are no turks in western thrace such community associations had been active until but they were first told to remove the word turkish on their buildings and on their official papers and then eventually close down this is also the final verdict november of the greek high court in the city of komotini a former greek parliamentarian of turkish parentage was sentenced recently to months of imprisonment with no right to appeal just for saying outloud that he was of turkish descent this duly elected ethnic turkish official was also deprived of his political rights for a period of three years each one of these barbaric acts seems to be none other than a vehicle used by the greek governments to cover up their inferiority complex they display vis a vis the people of turkiye the agreement on the exchange of minorities uses the term turks which demonstrates what is actually meant by the previous reference to muslims the fact that the greek governments also mention the existence of a few thousand non turkish muslims does not change the essential reality that there lives in western thrace a much bigger turkish minority the pomaks are also a muslim people whom all the three nations bulgarians turks and greeks consider as part of themselves do you know how the muslim turkish minority was organized according to the agreements poor poly it also proves that the turkish people are trapped in greece and the greek people are free to settle anywhere in the world the greek authorities deny even the existence of a turkish minority they pursue the same denial in connection with the macedonians of greece talk about oppression in addition in the democratic greek parliament passed law no virtually taking over the administration of the vakiflar and other charitable trusts they have ceased to be self supporting religious and cultural entities talk about fascism the greek governments are attempting to appoint the muftus irrespective of the will of the turkish minority as state official although the orthodox church has full authority in similar matters in greece the muslim turkish minority will have no say in electing its religious leaders talk about democracy the government of greece has recently destroyed an islamic convention in komotini such destruction which reflects an attitude against the muslim turkish cultural heritage is a violation of the lausanne convention as well as the so called greek constitution which is supposed to guarantee the protection of historical monuments the government of greece on the other hand is building new churches in remote villages as a complementary step toward hellenizing the region and you pondered sidiropoulos the president of the macedonian human rights committee became the latest victim of a tactic long used by the greeks to silence critics of policies of forced assimilation of the macedonian minority a forestry official by occupation sidiropoulos has been sent to internal exile on the island of kefalonia hundreds of kilometers away from his native florina his employer the florina city council asked him to depart in hours the greek authorities are trying to punish him for his involvement in copenhagen he returned to florina by his own choice and remains without a job helsinki watch a well known human rights group had been investigating the plight of the turkish minority in greece in august their findings were published in a report titled destroying ethnic identity turks of greece the report confirmed gross violations of the human rights of the turkish minority by the greek authorities it says for instance the greek government recently destroyed an islamic convent in komotini such destruction which reflects an attitude against the muslim turkish cultural heritage is a violation of the lausanne convention the turkish cemeteries in the village of vafeika and in pinarlik were attacked and tombstones were broken the cemetery in karotas was razed by bulldozers shall i go on why not the people of turkiye are not going to take human rights lessons from the greek government the discussion of human rights violations in greece does not stop at the greek frontier in several following articles i shall dwell on and expose the greek treatment of turks in western thrace and the aegean macedonians it has been reported that the greek cypriot administration has an intense desire for arms and that greece has made plans to supply it with the tanks and armored vehicles it has to destroy in accordance with the agreement reached on conventional arms reductions in europe meanwhile greek and greek cypriot officials are reported to have planned to take ostentatious measures aimed at camouflaging the transfer of these tanks and armored vehicles to southern cyprus a process that will conflict with the spirit of the agreement on conventional arms reduction in europe an acceptable method may certainly be found when there is a will but we know of various kinds of violent behaviors ranging from physical attacks to the burning of buildings the rugs at the amfia village mosque were dragged out to the front of the building and burnt there shots were fired on the mosque in the village of aryana now wait there is more greek atrocities in the vilayet of smyrna may to july inedited documents and evidence of english and french officers published by the permanent bureau of the turkish congress at lausanne lausanne imprimerie petter giesser held caroline pages the train going from denizli to smyrna was stopped at ephesus and the turkish travellers men and women who were in it ordered to descend and there in the open street under the eyes of their husbands fathers and brothers the women without distinction of age were violated and then all the travellers were massacred amongst the latter the lieutenant salih effendi a native of tripoli and a captain whose name is not known and to whom the hellenic authorities had given safe conduct were killed with specially atrocious tortures before the battle the wife of the lawyer enver bey coming from her garden was maltreated by greek soldiers she was even stript of her garments and her servant assie was violated the two tax gatherers mustapha and ali effendi were killed in the following manner their arms were bound behind their backs with wire and their heads were battered and burst open with blows from the butt end of a gun during the firing of the town eleven children six little girls and five boys fleeing from the flames were stopped by greek soldiers in the ramazan pacha quarter and thrown into a burning jewish house near bridge where they were burnt alive this fact is confirmed on oath by the retired commandant hussein hussni effendi who saw it the clock maker ahmed effendi and his son sadi were arrested and dragged out of their shop the son had his eyes put out and was then killed in the court of the greek church but ahmed effendi has been no more heard of at the market during the fire two unknown people were wounded by bayonets then bound together thrown into the fire and burnt alive the greeks killed also many jews these are the names of some moussa malki shoemaker killed bohor levy tailor killed bohor israel cobbler killed isaac calvo shoemaker killed david aroguete killed moussa lerosse killed gioia katan killed meryem malki killed soultan gharib killed isaac sabah wounded moche fahmi wounded david sabah wounded moise bensignor killed sarah bendi killed jacob jaffe wounded aslan halegna wounded serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
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nazi armenians were of service to germans in arab countries as well in article apr colorado edu perlman qso colorado edu eric s perlman writes this has been discussed before by several people on this net the statement is attributable either to hajj amin al husseini former grand mufti of jerusalem and the leader of the palestinian death squads during the war or to one of his chief henchmen let us not forget the nazi armenians nazi armenians were of service to germans in arab countries as well as uzun put it one well known case which received a lot of media coverage involved two nazi armenian agents which were dropped over syria by italian war planes the mission of the agents was to mingle among the armenian population in syria and to acquire relevant information for the german wehrmacht on the allied forces in the area nazi armenians also helped german propaganda efforts in arab countries designed to promote pro nazi sentiments among the french and british ruled arab populations beirut had traditionally been strong hold of the nazi armenians and until very recently it was the center of international armenian terrorism in russia general dro the butcher the architect of the turkish genocide in wwi was working closely with the german secret service he entered the war zone with his own men and acquired important intelligence about the soviets his experience with the turkish genocide in x soviet armenia made him an invaluable source for the germans meyer berkian ibid p meyer berkian ibid p patrick von zur muehlen ibid p serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
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million muslims perished of butchery at the hands of armenians in article apr husc harvard edu verbit brauer harvard edu mikhail s verbitsky writes actually jarmo is a permanent resident of my killfile anyone care to speculate on this i ll let the rest of the net judge this on its own merits between and million turks perished of butchery at the hands of armenians the genocide involved not only the killing of innocents but their forcible deportation from the russian armenia they were persecuted banished and slaughtered while much of ottoman army was engaged in world war i the genocide treaty defines genocide as acting with a specific intent to destroy in whole or in substantial part a national ethnic racial or religious group history shows that the x soviet armenian government intended to eradicate the muslim population million turks and kurds were exterminated by the armenians international diplomats in ottoman empire at the time including u s ambassador bristol denounced the x soviet armenian government s policy as a massacre of the kurds turks and tartars the blood thirsty leaders of the x soviet armenian government at the time personally involved in the extermination of the muslims the turkish genocide museums in turkiye honor those who died during the turkish massacres perpetrated by the armenians the eyewitness accounts and the historical documents established beyond any doubt that the massacres against the muslim people during the war were planned and premeditated the aim of the policy was clearly the extermination of all turks in x soviet armenian territories the muslims of van bitlis mus erzurum and erzincan districts and their wives and children have been taken to the mountains and killed the massacres in trabzon tercan yozgat and adana were organized and perpetrated by the blood thirsty leaders of the x soviet armenian government the principal organizers of the slaughter of innocent muslims were dro antranik armen garo hamarosp daro pastirmadjian keri karakin haig pajise liantz and silikian source bristol papers general correspondence container bristol to bradley letter of september i have it from absolute first hand information that the armenians in the caucasus attacked tartar turkish villages that are utterly defenseless and bombarded these villages with artillery and they murder the inhabitants pillage the village and often burn the village sources the ottoman state the ministry of war islam ahalinin ducar olduklari mezalim hakkinda vesaike mustenid malumat istanbul the french version documents relatifs aux atrocites commises par les armeniens sur la population musulmane istanbul in the latin script h k turkozu ed osmanli ve sovyet belgeleriyle ermeni mezalimi ankara in addition z basar ed ermenilerden gorduklerimiz ankara and edited by the same author ermeniler hakkinda makaleler derlemeler ankara askeri tarih belgeleri vol december document numbered askeri tarih belgeleri vol december document numbered those who were capable of fighting were taken away at the very beginning with the excuse of forced labor in road construction they were taken in the direction of sarikamis and annihilated when the russian army withdrew a part of the remaining people was destroyed in armenian massacres and cruelties they were thrown into wells they were locked in houses and burned down they were killed with bayonets and swords in places selected as butchering spots their bellies were torn open their lungs were pulled out and girls and women were hanged by their hair after being subjected to every conceivable abominable act a very small part of the people who were spared these abominations far worse than the cruelty of the inquisition resembled living dead and were suffering from temporary insanity because of the dire poverty they had lived in and because of the frightful experiences they had been subjected to including women and children such persons discovered so far do not exceed one thousand five hundred in erzincan and thirty thousand in erzurum all the fields in erzincan and erzurum are untilled everything that the people had has been taken away from them and we found them in a destitute situation at the present time the people are subsisting on some food they obtained impelled by starvation from russian storages left behind after their occupation of this area serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
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the justice for the victims of the armenian barbarism and fascism in article licre ludwig edu au theo licre ludwig edu au writes first of all it is called istanbul let me even spell it for you i s t a n b u l secondly the turks are also asking for their money for their destroyed and confiscated properties in greece and former yugoslavia bosnia and serbia classic it is called the justice we also demand that the x soviet armenian government admit its responsibility for the turkish and kurdish genocide render reparations to the muslim people and return the land to its rightful owners the recognition of the genocide has become an issue which cannot be delayed further and it is imperative that artificial obstacles created for political manipulations be removed now if we re talking about rent and vandalism let s make it fair then greece pays back it s dues and turkey pays for years rent and destruction of classical architecture deal democracy in action are you the truelove or falselove of arromdian of the asala sdpa arf terrorism and revisionism triangle if turks had behaved like christians to use force to convert to islam the nations which they brought under their power to which no one could have opposed today there would be no eastern problem but turks did not do so they obeyed the word of the koran to permit everybody to worship in their own way centuries before frederick the great pronounced his famous dictum thus in an age when the christian europe itself shed christian blood and when people in europe enjoyed inflicting inhuman tortures upon those whose beliefs differed from theirs the ottoman empire became the sole country where the inquisition did not exist where deaths at the stake were unheard of and where accusations of witchcraft were not made and the barbarian turkey was the only country where the jews persecuted and chased away everywhere by the christians could find asylum these facts demonstrate that muslim countries provided spiritually far better living conditions than christian countries the turks who are a conquering nation did not turkify the nations that came under their rule instead they respected their religions and traditions it was a stroke of luck for romania to live under turkish rule instead of russian or austrian rule because otherwise there would not have been a romanian nation today popescu ciocanel turks rule over people under their administration only externally without interfering with their internal structures on account of this the autonomy of minorities in turkey is better and more complete than any in the most advanced european countries human beings hate each other on account of religious differences this flaw is older than islam and christianity but there has never been any examples of this adjuration in turkey because turks never oppress anybody on account of his religion if enmity on the basis of religion had been such a case of simple contempt among us too or if it did not keep translating itself into action many nations in our europe would probably have considered themselves happy a de mortraye turkey never became a scene for religious terror or for the cruelty of the inquisition on the contrary it served as an asylum for the unfortunate victims of christian fanaticism if you look into history you will see that in the fifteenth century thousands of jews who were expelled from spain and portugal found such a good asylum in turkey that their descendants have been living there very calmly all through these approximately three hundred years and are only forced to defend themselves in some countries against the cruelty of christians especially that of the orthodoxes no jew is able to appear in public during easter celebrations in athens even today in turkey however if the israelites are insulted by the greek and armenian communities local courts immediately take them under their protection in that vast and calm country of the sultan all religions and nations are living together peacefully although the mosque is superior to the church and the synagogue it does not replace them because of this the catholic sect is more free in istanbul and smyrna compared with paris and lyon in addition to the fact that no law in turkey prohibits the open air ceremonies of this sect neither does any law imprison its cross in the church while the dead are being taken to the graves a long line of priests bear processional candles and chant catholic hymns when all the priests in all the churches in the galata and beyoglu districts go into the streets and form clerical processions during the eucharist celebrations chanting hymns and bearing their crosses and religious banners a detachment of soldiers escorts them which forces even the turks to stand in respect around the group of priests a ubicini ah djevat yabancilara gore eski turkler rd ed istanbul pp ibid p ibid pp ibid pp serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
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and azeri survivors were killed by a shot to the back of the head armenian atrocities moscow ap azerbaijani forces on saturday retook three villages seized by armenians and discovered bodies of executed civilians azerbaijani reports said the azerbaijani fighters found bodies of civilians including those of a child and two elderly women who were shot point blank and survivors were killed by a shot to the back of the head said a ministry statement carried by the azerbaijani azerinform and turan news agencies and the itar tass news service everywhere armenian occupants were they left tens of corpses of civilians shot to death point blank and mutilated the serdar argic we closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as ways of escape for the turks and then proceeded in the work of extermination ohanus appressian in soviet armenia today there no longer exists a single turkish soul sahak melkonian
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re israeli terrorism in article rhnb pp usenet ins cwru edu cy cleveland freenet edu anas omran writes in a previous article adam endor uucp adam shostack says in article bdad news service uci edu tclock orion oac uci edu tim clock writes in article amoss apr shuldig cs huji ac il amoss shuldig cs huji ac il amos shapira writes cy cleveland freenet edu anas omran writes eh could you please give me details about an event where a neutral observer was killed by purpose by an israeli soldier there are many cases but i do not remeber names the isralis shot and killed a un observer in gaza in the first half of intifada not exactly the same but reminiscent of the assassination of count bernadotte who was the un negotiator during the israeli war of independence he was killed by the israelis seems he was being too successful in negotiating a cease fire which would have worked territorially against the nascent israel compared to continued war jim eggertj atc ll mit edu jim eggert
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re israeli terrorism in article apr virginia edu ab z virginia edu andi beyer writes what is a shame is that in austria daily reports of the inhuman acts commited by israeli soldiers it wasn t all that long ago that the acts of israeli soldiers were described as superhuman now they are inhuman did the israelis change so radically so quickly or have reporting attitudes changed and the blessing received from the government makes some of the holocaust guilt go away after all look how the jews are treating other races when they got power when the jews were powerless they did what they could to help others which was obviously quite limited later liberated american jews were on the forefront of the civil rights movement the jewish government of israel rescued jews ranging in skin color from white russian to brown yemenite to black ethiopian please andi tell us how the jews are treating other races when they got power it is unfortunate your ignorance and bias are indeed unfortunate jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president
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re israeli terrorism in article rambk cee usenet ins cwru edu cl cleveland freenet edu hamaza h salah writes ab z virginia edu andi beyer writes andi s posting deleted hamaza s only comment is well said mr beyer andi when you get the full fledged support of hamaza salah you know you re on the wrong track jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president
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re israel s expansion ii in article apr virginia edu ab z virginia edu andi beyer writes waldo cybernet cse fau edu writes all jews suffered during wwii not just our beloved who perished or were tortured we all suffered all humans suffered emotionally some jews and many others suffered physically i m just waiting for andi to tell us that african americans should start paying compensation to white americans who suffered from being slave owners jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president
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re h r violations by israel arab st in article igc apc org center for policy research cpr igc apc org writes i am born in palestine now israel i have family there the lack of peace and utter injustice in my home country has affected me all my life bullshit you ve been in iceland for the past years you told us so yourself it had something to do with not wanting to suffer the fate of your mother who has lived with jews for a long time or somesuch sounded awful i am concerned by palestine israel because i want peace to come to it peace and justice are you as concerned about peace and justice in palestine jordan israeli trights and palestinian rights are not symmetrical the first party has a state and the other has none the first is an occupier and the second the occupied let s say that israel grants the plo everything they ever asked for that israel goes back to the borders what will the palestinean arabs in tel aviv call themselves the palestineans in west jerusalem in haifa will they still claim to be occupied or do you suggest that israel expell or kill off any remaining arabs much as the arabs did to their jews indeed there is much which is not symmetrical about the conflict in the m e and most of this lack of symmetry does not favor israel elias davidsson iceland jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president
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re rejoinder questions to israelis in article igc apc org center for policy research cpr igc apc org writes from center for policy research cpr subject rejoinder questions to israelis to shaig think com subject ten questions to israelis dear shai your answers to my questions are unsatisfactory so why don t ypu sue him naftaly stramer intergraph electronics internet nstramer dazixco ingr com lookout road suite a voice fax boulder co quality is everybody s job and it s everybody s job to watch all that they can
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accounts of anti armenian human right violations in azerbaijan a accounts of anti armenian human right violations in azerbaijan part a prelude to current events in nagorno karabakh part a of oh yes i just remembered while they were raping me they repeated quite frequently let the armenian women have babies for us muslim babies let them bear azerbaijanis for the struggle against the armenians then they said those muslims can carry on our holy cause heroes they repeated it very often deposition of lyudmila grigorevna m born teacher sumgait secondary school no secretary of the komsomol organization at school no member of the sumgait city komsomol committee office resident at building b apartment microdistrict no sumgait azerbaijan note the events in kafan used as a pretext to attack armenians in azerbaijan are false as verified by independent international human rights organizations dd i m thinking about the price the sumgait armenians paid to be living in armenia now we paid for it in human casualties and crippled fates the price was too great now after the sumgait tragedy we the victims divide our lives into before and after we talk like that that was before the war like the people who went through world war ii and considered it a whole epoch a fate no matter how many years go by no matter how long we live it will never be forgotten on the contrary some of the moments become even sharper in our rage in our sorrow we saw everything differently but now they say that you can see more with distance and we can see those inhuman events with more clarity now we more acutely perceive our losses and everything that happened nineteen eighty eight was a leap year everyone fears a leap year and wants it to pass as quickly as possible yet we never thought that that leap year would be such a black one for every sumgait armenian those who lost someone and those who didn t that second to last day of winter was ordinary for our family although you could already smell danger in the air but we didn t think that the danger was near and possible so we didn t take any steps to save ourselves at least as my parents say at least we should have done something to save the children my parents themselves are not that old and years but then they thought that they had already lived enough and did everything they could to save us in our apartment the tragedy started on february around five in the afternoon i call it a tragedy and i repeat it was a tragedy even though all our family survived when i recall how they broke down our door my skin crawls even now among armenians among people who wish me only well i feel like it s all starting over again i remember how that mob broke into our apartment my parents were standing in the hall my father had an axe in his hands and had immediately locked both of the doors our door was rarely locked since friends and neighbors often dropped by we re known as a hospitable family and we just never really thought about whether the people who were coming to see us were azerbaijanis jews or russians we had friends of many nationalities even a turkmen woman my parents were in the hall my father with an axe i remember him telling my mother run to the kitchen for a knife but mother was detached pale as though she had decided to sell her life a bit dearer to be honest i never expected it of her she s afraid of getting shot and afraid of the dark a girlfriend was at the house that day a russian girl lyuda and mamma said no matter what happens no matter what they do to us you re not to come out of the bedroom we re going to tell them that we re alone in the apartment we went into the bedroom there were four of us marina and the russian girl crawled under the bed and we covered them up with a rug boxes of dishes and karina and i are standing there and looking at one another the idea that perhaps we were seeing each other for the last time flashed somewhere inside me i m an emotional person and i express my emotions immediately i wanted to embrace her and kiss her as though it were the last second and maybe karina was thinking the same thing but she s quite reserved we didn t have time to say anything to each other because we immediately heard mamma raise a shout there was so much noise from the tramping of feet from the shouting and from excited voices i couldn t figure what was going on out there because the door to the bedroom was only open a crack but when mamma shouted the second time karina ran out of the bedroom i ran after her i had wanted to hold her back but when she opened the door and ran out into the hall they saw us immediately the only thing i managed to do was close the door behind me at least so as to save marina and her friend the mob was shouting all of their eyes were shining all red like from insomnia at first about people burst in but later i was standing with my back to the door and couldn t see they came into the hall into the kitchen and dragged my father into the other room he didn t utter a word he just raised the axe to hit them but mamma snatched the axe from behind and said tell them not to touch the children tell them they can do as they want with us but not to harm the children she said this to father in armenian there were azerbaijanis from armenia among the mob who broke in they understood armenian perfectly the local azerbaijanis don t know armenian they don t need to speak it and one of them responded in armenian you and your children both we re going to do the same thing to you and your children that you armenians did in kafan they killed our women our girls our mothers they cut their breasts off and burned our houses and so on and so forth and we came to do the same thing to you this whole time some of them are destroying the house and the others are shouting at us they were mostly young people under at first there weren t any older people among them and all of their faces were unfamiliar sumgait is a small town all the same and we know a lot of people by their faces especially me i m a teacher so they dragged my father into the other room they twisted his arms and took him in there no they didn t take him in there they dragged him in there because he was already unable to walk they closed the door to that room all but a crack we couldn t see what was happening to father what they were doing to him then a young man about years old started to tear off mamma s sarafan and mamma shouted at him in azerbaijani i m old enough to be your mother what are you doing he struck her now he s being held mamma identified him i hope he s convicted then they went after karina who s been talking to them like a komsomol leader as though she were trying to lead them down a different path as they say to influence their consciousness she told them that what they were doing was wrong that they mustn t do it she said come on let s straighten this out without emotions what do you want who are you why did you come here what did we ever do to you someone tried to explain who they were and why they had come into our home but then the ones in the back more of them kept coming and coming said what are you talking to them for you should kill them we came here to kill them they pushed karina struck her and she fell down they beat her but she didn t cry out even when they tore her clothes off she kept repeating what did we do to you what did we do to you and even later when she came to she said mamma what did we do to them why did they do that to us that group was prepared i know this because i noticed that some of them only broke up furniture and others only dealt with us i remember that when they were beating me when they were tearing my clothes off i felt neither pain nor shame because my entire attention was riveted to karina all i could do was watch how much they beat her and how painful it was for her and what they did to her that s why i felt no pain later when they carried karina off they beat her savagely it s really amazing that she not only lived but didn t lose her mind she is very beautiful and they did everything they could to destroy her beauty mostly they beat her face with their fists kicking her using anything they could find mamma karina and i were all in one room and again i didn t feel any pain just didn t feel any no matter how much they beat me no matter what they did then one of those creeps said that there wasn t enough room in the apartment they broke up the beds and the desk and moved everything into the corners so there would be more room then someone suggested let s take her outside those beasts were in heaven they did what they would do every day if they weren t afraid of the authorities those were their true colors at the time i thought that in fact they would always behave that way if they weren t afraid of what would happen to them when they carried karina out and beat mamma her face was completely covered with blood that s when i started to feel the pain i blacked out several times from the pain but each moment that i had my eyes open it was as though i were recording it all on film i think i m a kind person by nature but i m vengeful especially if someone is mean to me and i don t deserve it i hold a grudge a long time if someone intentionally causes me pain and every time i would come to and see one of those animals on top of me i d remember them and i ll remember them for the rest of my life even though people tell me forget you have to forget you have to go on living at some point i remember that they stood me up and told me something and despite the fact that i hurt all over i had been beaten terribly i found the strength in myself to interfere with their tortures i realized that i had to do something resist them or just let them kill me to bring my suffering to an end i pushed one of them away he was a real horse i remember now that he s being held too as though they were all waiting for it they seized me and took me out onto the balcony i had long hair and it was stuck all over me one of the veranda shutters to the balcony was open and i realized that they planned to throw me out the window because they had already picked me up with their hands i was up in the air as though for the last time i took a really deep breath and closed my eyes and somehow braced myself inside i suddenly became cold as though my heart had sunk into my feet and suddenly i felt myself flying i couldn t figure out if i was really flying or if i just imagined it when i came to i thought now i m going to smash on the ground and when it didn t happen i opened my eyes and realized that i was still lying on the floor and since i didn t scream didn t beg them at all they became all the more wild like wolves they started to trample me with their feet shoes with heels on them and iron horseshoes like they had spe cially put them on then i lost consciousness i came to a couple of times and waited for death summoned it beseeched it some people ask for good health life happiness but at that moment i didn t need any of those things i was sure that none of us would survive and i had even forgotten about marina and if none of us was alive it wasn t worth living there was a moment when the pain was especially great i withstood inhuman pain and realized that they were going to torment me for a long time to come because i had showed myself to be so tenacious i started to strangle myself and when i started to wheeze they realized that with my death i was going to put an end to their pleasures and they pulled my hands from my throat the person who injured and insulted me most painfully i remember him very well because he was the oldest in the group he looked around i know that he has four children and that he considers himself an ideal father and person one who would never do such a thing something came over him then you see even during the investigation he almost called me daughter he apologized although of course he knew that i d never forgive him something like that i can never forgive i have never injured anyone with my behavior with my words or with my deeds i have always put myself in the other person s shoes but then in a matter of hours they trampled me entirely i shall never forget it i wanted to do myself in then because i had nothing to lose because no one could protect me my father who tried to do something against that hoard of beasts by himself could do nothing and wouldn t be able to do anything i knew that i was even sure that he was no longer alive and ira melkumian my acquaintance i knew her and had been to see her family a couple of times her brother tried to save her and couldn t so he tried to kill her his very own sister he threw an axe at her to kill her and put an end to her suffering when they stripped her clothes off and carried her into the other room her brother knew what awaited her i don t know which one it was edik or igor both of them were in the room from which the axe was thrown but the axe hit one of the people carrying her and so they killed her and made her death even more excruciating maybe the most excruciating of all the deaths of those days in sumgait i heard about it all from the neighbor from the melkumians landing his name is makhaddin he knows my family a little he came to see how we had gotten settled in the new apartment in baku how we were feeling and if we needed anything he s a good person he said you should praise god that you all survived but what i saw with my own eyes i a man who has seen so many people die who has lived a whole life i he says nearly lost my mind that day i had never seen the likes of it and think i never shall again the door to his apartment was open and he saw everything one of the brothers threw the axe because they had already taken the father and mother out of the apartment igor edik and ira remained he saw ira naked being carried into the other room in the hands of six or seven people he told us about it and said he would never forget it he heard the brothers shouting something inarticulate from pain rage and the fact that they were powerless to do anything but all the same they tried to do something the guy who got hit with the axe lived i i after i had been unsuccessful at killing myself i saw them taking marina and lyuda out of the bedroom i was in such a state that i couldn t even remember my sister s name i wanted to cry marina out to her but could not i looked at her and knew that it was a familiar dear face but couldn t for the life of me remember what her name was and who she was and thus i saved her because when they were taking her out she as it turns out had told them that she had just been visiting and that she and lyuda were both there by chance that they weren t armenians lyuda s a russian you can tell right away and marina speaks azerbaijani wonderfully and she told them that she was an azerbaijani and i almost gave her away and doomed her i m glad that at least marina came out of this all in good physical health although her spirit was murdered at some point i came to and saw igor igor agayev my acquaintance in that mob he lives in the neighboring building for some reason i remembered his name maybe i sensed my defense in him i called out to him in russian igor help but he turned away and went into the bedroom just then they were taking marina and lyuda out of the bedroom igor said he knew marina and lyuda that marina in fact was azerbaijani and he took both of them to the neighbors and the idea stole through me that maybe igor had led them to our apartment something like that but if he was my friend he was supposed to save me then they were striking me very hard we have an indian vase a metal one they were hitting me on the back with it and i blacked out they took me out onto the balcony a second time to throw me out the window they were already sure that i was dead because i didn t react at all to the new blows someone said she s already dead let s throw her out when they carried me out onto the balcony for the second time when i was about to die the second time i heard someone say in azerbaijani don t kill her i know her she s a teacher i can still hear that voice ringing in my ears but i can t remember whose voice it was it wasn t igor because he speaks azerbaijani with an accent his mother is russian and they speak russian at home he speaks azerbaijani worse than our marina does i remember when they carried me in and threw me on the bed he came up to me that person and i having opened my eyes saw and recognized that person but immediately passed out cold i had been beaten so much that i didn t have the strength to remember him i only remember that this person was older and he had a high position unfortunately i can t remember anything more what should i say about igor he didn t treat me badly i had heard a lot about him that he wasn t that good a person that he sometimes drank too much once he boasted to me that he had served in afghanistan he knew that women usually like bravery in a man especially if a man was in afghanistan if he was wounded then it s about eighty percent sure that he will be treated very sympathetically with respect later i found out that he had served in ufa and was injured but that s not in afghanistan of course i found that all out later among the people who were in our apartment my karina also saw the secretary of the party organization i don t know his last name his first name is najaf he is an armenian born azerbaijani but later karina wasn t so sure she was no longer a hundred percent sure that it was he she saw and she didn t want to endanger him she said he was there and a little while later maybe they beat me so much that i am confusing him with someone else no it seems like it was he i am sure it was he because when he came to see us the first time he said one thing and the next time he said something entirely different the investigators haven t summoned him yet he came to see us in the khimik boarding house where we were living at the time he brought groceries and flowers this was right before march th he almost started crying he was so upset to see our condition i don t know if he was putting us on or not but later after we had told the investigator and they summoned him to the procuracy he said that he had been in baku he wasn t in sumgait the fact that he changed his testimony leads me to believe that karina is right that in fact it was he who was in our apartment i don t know how the investigators are now treating him at one point i wondered and asked and was told that he had an alibi and was not in our apartment couldn t he have gone to baku and arranged an alibi i m not ruling out that possibility ill now return to our apartment mamma had come to you could say that she bought them off with the gold father gave her when they were married her wedding band and her watch were gold she bought her own and her husband s lives with them she gave the gold to a year old boy vadim vorobyev a russian boy he speaks azerbaijani perfectly he s an orphan who was raised by his grandfather and who lives in sumgait on nizami street he goes to a special school one for mentally handicapped children but i ll say this i m a teacher all the same and in a matter of minutes i can form an opinion that boy is not at all mentally handicapped he s healthy he can think just fine and analyze too policemen should be so lucky and he s cunning too after that he went home and tore all of the pictures out of his photo album he beat mamma and demanded gold saying lady if you give us all the gold and money in your apartment we ll let you live and mamma told them where the gold was he brought in the bag and opened it shook out the contents and everyone who was in the apartment jumped on it started knocking each other over and taking the gold from one another i m surprised they didn t kill one another right then mamma was still in control of herself she had been beaten up her face was black and blue from the blows and her eyes were filled with blood and she ran into the other room father was lying there tied up with a gag in his mouth and a pillow over his face there was a broken table on top of the pil low mamma grabbed father and he couldn t walk like me he was half dead halfway into the other world he couldn t comprehend anything couldn t see and was covered with black and blue mamma pulled the gag out of his mouth it was some sort of cloth i think it was a slipcover from an armchair the bandits were still in our apartment even in the room mamma pulled father out of led him out of carried him out of we had two armchairs in that room a small magazine table a couch a television and a screen three people were standing next to that screen and into their shirts their pants everywhere imaginable they were shoving shot glasses and cups from the coffee service mamma saw them out of the corner of her eye she said i was afraid to turn around i just seized father and started pulling him but at the threshold i couldn t hold him up he fell down and i picked him up again and dragged him down the stairs to the neighbors mamma remembered one of the criminals the one who had watched her with his face half turned toward her out of one eye she says i realized that my death would come from that person i looked him in the eyes and he recoiled from fear and went stealing later they caught that scoundrel meanwhile mamma grabbed father and left i was alone igor had taken marina away mamma and father were gone karina was already outside i didn t know what they were doing to her i was left all alone and at that moment i became someone else do you understand even though i knew that neither mother and father in the other room nor marina and lyuda under the bed could save me all the same i somehow managed to hold out i went on fighting them i bit someone i remember and i scratched another but when i was left alone i realized what kind of people they were the ones i had observed the ones who beat karina what kind of people they were the ones who beat me that it was all unnecessary that i was about to die and that all of that would die with me at some point i took heart when i saw the young man from the next building i didn t know his name but we would greet one another when we met we knew that we were from the same microdistrict when i saw him i said neighbor is that you in so doing i placed myself in great danger he realized that if i lived i would remember him that s when he grabbed the axe the axe that had been taken from my father i automatically fell to my knees and raised my hands to take the blow of the axe although at the time it would have been better if he had struck me in the head with the axe and put me out of my misery when he started getting ready to wind back for the blow someone came into the room the newcomer had such an impact on everyone that my neighbor s axe froze in the air everyone stood at attention for this guy like soldiers in the presence of a general everyone waited for his word continue the atrocities or not he said enough let s go to the third entryway in the third entryway they killed uncle shurik aleksandr gambarian this confirms once again that they had prepared in advance almost all of them left with him as they went picking up pillows blankets whatever they needed whatever they found all the way up to worn out slippers and one boot someone else had already taken the other four people remained in the room soldiers who didn t obey their general they had to have come recently because other faces had flashed in front of me over those to hours but i had never seen those three one of them kuliyev i identified him later a native of the sisian district of armenia an azerbaijani had moved to azerbaijan a year before he told me in armenian sister don t be afraid i ll drive those three azerbaijanis out of here that s just what he said those azerbaijanis as though he himself were not azerbaijani but some other nationality he said with such hatred i ll drive them out of here now and you put your clothes on and find a hammer and nails and nail the door shut because they ll be coming back from apartment that s when i found out that they had gone to apartment before that the person in the eskimo dogskin coat the one who came in and whom they listened to the general said that they were going to the third entryway kuliyev helped me get some clothes on because l couldn t do it by myself marina s old fur coat was lying on the floor he threw it over my shoulders i was racked with shivers and he asked where he could find nails and a hammer he wanted to give them to me so that when he left i could nail the door shut but the door was lying on the floor in the hall i went out onto the balcony there were broken windows and flowers and dirt from flowerpots were scattered on the floor it was impossible to find anything he told me well fine i won t leave you here would any of the neighbors let you in they ll be back they won t calm down they know you re alive he told me all this in armenian then he returned to the others and said what are you waiting for leave they said ah you just want to chase us out of here and do it with her yourself no we want to do it to he urged them on but gently not coarsely because he was alone against them although they were still just boys not old enough to be drafted he led them out of the room and went down to the third floor with them himself and said leave what s the mat ter aren t you men go fight with the men what do you want of her and he came back upstairs they wanted to come up after him and he realized that he couldn t hold them off forever then he asked me where he could hide me i told him at the neighbors on the fourth floor apartment we were on really good terms with them we knocked on the door and he explained in azerbaijani the neighbor woman opened the door and immediately said i m an azerbaijani he said i know let her sit at your place a while don t open the door to anyone no one knows about this i won t tell anyone let her stay at your place she says fine have her come in i went in she cried a bit and gave me some stockings i had gone entirely numb and was racked with nervous shudders i burst into tears even though i was wearing marina s old fur coat it s a short one a half length i was cold all the same i asked do you know where my family is what happened to them she says no i don t know anything i m afraid to go out of the apartment now they re so wild that they don t look to see who s azerbaijani and who s armenian kuliyev left ten minutes later my neighbor says you know lyuda i don t want to lose my life because of you or my son and his wife go stay with someone else during the butchery in our apartment one of the scum a sadist took my earring in his mouth i had pearl earrings on and ripped it out tearing the earlobe the other earring was still there when i m nervous i fix my hair constantly and then when i touched my ear i noticed that i had one earring on i took it out and gave it to her she took the earring but she led me out of the apartment i went out and didn t know where to go i heard someone going upstairs i don t know who it was but assumed it was them with tremendous difficulty i end up to our apartment i wanted to die in my own home i go into the apartment and hear that they are coming up to our place to the fifth floor i had to do something i went into the bedroom where marina and lyuda had hidden and saw that the bed was overturned instead of hiding i squatted near some broken christmas ornaments found an unbroken one and started sobbing then they came in someone said that there were still some things to take i think that someone pushed me under the bed i lay on the floor and there were broken ornaments on it under my head and legs i got all cut up but i lay there without moving my heart was beating so hard it seemed the whole town could hear it there were no lights on maybe that s what saved me they were burning matches and toward the end they brought in a candle they started picking out the clothes that could still be worn they took father s sport jacket and a bedspread the end of which was under my head they pulled on the one end and it felt like they were pulling my hair out i almost cried out and again i realized i wasn t getting out of there alive and i started to strangle myself again i took my throat in one hand and pressed the other on my mouth so as not to wheeze so that i would die and they would only find me afterward they were throwing the burned matches under the bed and i got burned but i withstood it something inside of me held on someone s hand was protecting me to the end i knew that i was going to die but i didn t know how i knew that if i survived i would walk out of that apartment but if i found out that one of my family had died i would die for sure because i had never been so close to death and couldn t imagine how you could go on living without your mother or father or without your sister marina i thought was still alive she went to lyuda s place or someone is hiding her i tried to think that igor wouldn t let them be killed he served in afghanistan he should protect her while i was strangling myself i said my good byes to everyone and then i thought how could marina survive alone if they killed all of us how would she live all by herself there were six people in the room they talked among themselves and smoked one talked about his daughter saying that there was no children s footwear in our apartment that he could take for his daughter another said that he liked the apartment recently we had done a really good job fixing everything up and that he would live there after everything was all over they started to argue a third one says how come you get it i have four children and there are three rooms here that s just what i need all these years i ve been living in god awful places another one says neither of you gets it we ll set fire to it and leave then someone said that azerbaijanis live right next door the fire could move over to their place and they to my good fortune didn t set fire to the apartment and left oh yes i just remembered while they were raping me they repeated quite frequently let the armenian women have babies for us muslim babies let them bear azerbaijanis for the struggle against the armenians then they said those muslims can carry on our holy cause heroes they repeated it very often reference for the sumgait tragedy pogroms against armenians in soviet azerbaijan volume i eyewitness accounts edited by samuel shahmuradian forward by yelena bonner published by aristide d caratzas ny pages david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org how do we explain turkish troops on s d p a center for regional studies the armenian border when we can t p o box even explain cambridge ma turkish mp march
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accounts of anti armenian human right violations in azerbaijan b accounts of anti armenian human right violations in azerbaijan part b prelude to current events in nagorno karabakh part b of oh yes i just remembered while they were raping me they repeated quite frequently let the armenian women have babies for us muslim babies let them bear azerbaijanis for the struggle against the armenians then they said those muslims can carry on our holy cause heroes they repeated it very often continued from part a the six of them left they left and i had an attack i realized that the dan ger was past and stopped controlling myself i relaxed for a moment and the physical pain immediately made itself felt my heart and kidneys hurt i had an awful kidney attack i rolled back and forth on top of those christmas ornaments howling and howling i didn t know where i was or how long this went on when we figured out the time later it turned out that i howled and was in pain for around an hour then all my strength was gone and i burst into tears i started feeling sorry for myself and so on and so forth then someone came into the room i think i hear someone calling my name i want to respond and restrain myself i think that i m hallucinating i am silent and then it continues it seems that first a man s voice is calling me then a woman s later i found out that mamma had sent our neighbor the one whose apartment she was hiding in uncle sabir kasumov to our place telling him i know that they ve killed lyuda go there and at least bring her corpse to me so they don t violate her corpse he went and returned empty handed but mamma thought he just didn t want to carry the corpse into his apartment she sent him another time and then sent his wife and they were walking through the rooms looking for me but i didn t answer their calls there was no light they had smashed the chandeliers and lamps they started the pogrom in our apartment around five o clock and at i went down to the kasumovs i went down the stairs myself i walked out of the apartment how long can you wait for your own death how long can you be cowardly afraid come what will i walked out and started knocking on the doors one after the next no one not on the fifth floor not on the fourth opened the door on the third floor on the landing of the stairway uncle sabir s son started to shout aunt roza don t cry lyuda s alive he knocked on his own door and out came aunt tanya igor and after them mamma aunt tanya uncle sabir s wife is an urdmurt all of us were in their apartment i didn t see karina but she was in their home too lying delirious she had a fever marina was there too and my father and mother all of my family had gathered there at the door i lost consciousness igor and aunt tanya carried me into the apartment later i found out what they had done to our karina mamma said lyuda karina s in really serious condition she s probably dying if she recognizes you don t cry don t tell her that her face looks so awful it was as though her whole face was paralyzed you know everything was pushed over to one side her eye was all swollen and everything flowed together her lips her cheeks it was as though they had dragged her right side around the whole microdistrict that s how disfigured her face was i said fine mamma was afraid to go into the room because she went in and hugged karina and started to cry i went in as soon as i saw her my legs gave way i fell down near the bed hugged her legs and started kissing them and crying she opened the eye that was intact looked at me and said who is it but i could barely talk my whole face was so badly beaten i didn t say but rather muttered something tender something incomprehensible but tender my karochka my karina my little golden one she understood me then igor brought me some water i drank it down and moistened karina s lips she started to groan she was saying something to me but i couldn t understand it then i made out it hurts i hurt all over her hair was glued down with blood i stroked her forehead her head she had grit on her forehead and on her lips she was groaning again and i don t know how to help her she calls me over with her hand come closer i go to her she s saying something to me but i can t understand her igor brings her a pencil and paper and says write it down she shakes her head as if to say no i can t write i can t understand what she s saying she wanted to tell me something but she couldn t i say karina just lie there a little while then maybe you ll feel better and you can tell me then and then she says maybe it ll be too late and i completely just broke down i couldn t control myself then i moistened my hand in the water and wiped her forehead and eye i dipped a handkerchief into the water and squeezed a little water onto her lips she says lyuda we re not saved yet we have to go somewhere else out of this damned house they want to kill us i know they ll find us here too we need to call urshan she repeated this to me for almost a whole hour until i understood her every word i ask what s his number urshan feyruzovich that s the head of the administration where she works we have to call him but i didn t know his home number i say karina what s his number she says i can t remember i say who knows his number who can i call she says i don t know anything leave me alone i went out of the room igor stayed to watch over her and sat there he was crying too i say mamma karina says that we have to call urshan how can we call him who knows his telephone number i tell marina think think who can we call to find out she started calling several people didn t answer she called a girlfriend her girlfriend called another girlfriend and found out the number and called us back the boss s wife answered and said he was at the dacha my voice keeps cracking i can t talk normally she says lyuda don t panic get a hold of yourself go out to those hooligans and tell them that they just can t do that she still didn t know what was really going on i said it s easy for you to say that you don t understand what s happening they are killing people here i don t think there is a single armenian left in the building they ve cut them all up i m even surprised that we managed to save ourselves she says well ok if it s that serious and all the same she s thinking that my emotions are all churned up and that i m fearing for my life that in fact it s not all that bad ok fine fine she says if you re afraid ok as soon as urshan comes back i ll send him over we called again because they had just started robbing the apartment directly under aunt tanya s on the second floor asya dallakian s apartment she wasn t home she was staying with her daughter in karabagh they destroyed everything there we realized that they still might come back we kept on trying to get through to aunt tanya urshan s wife is named tanya too and finally we get through she says yes he s come home he s leaving for your place now he came of course he didn t know what was happening either because he brought two of his daughters with him he came over in his jeep with his two daughters like he was going on an outing he came and saw what shape we were in and what was going on in town and got frightened he has grown up daughters they re almost my age the three of us carried out karina tossed a coat on her and a warm scarf and went down to his car he took karina and me to the maternity home no first they took us to the po ice precinct they had stretchers ready as soon as we got out of the car they put karina and me on stretchers and said that we were in serious condition and that we mustn t move we might have fractures from the stretcher i saw about soldiers sitting and lying on the first floor bandaged on the concrete floor groaning this was around eleven o clock at night we had left the house somewhere around when i saw those soldiers i realized that a war was going on soldiers enemies everything just like a war they carried me into some office on the stretcher the emergency medical people from baku were there the medical attendant there was an older armenian urshan told him what they had done to karina because she s so proud she would never have told and this aging armenian his name was uncle arkady i think because someone said arkady get an injection ready he started to fill a syringe and turned around so as to give karina a shot but when he looked at her face he became ill and he was an old man in his sixties his hair was all grey and his moustache too he hugged karina and started to cry what have they done to you he was speaking armenian what have they done to you karina didn t say anything mamma came in then and she started to cry too the man tried to calm her i ll give you a shot mamma tells him i don t need any shot where is the government just what are they doing look what they ve done to my children they re killing people and you re just sitting here some teacups were standing on the table in there you re sitting here drinking tea look what they ve done to my daughters look what they ve turned them into they gave her something to drink some heart medicine i think they gave karina an injection and the doctor said that she had to be taken to the maternity home immediately papa and urshan i think even though papa was in bad shape helped carry karina out when they put her on the stretcher none of the medics got near her i don t know maybe there weren t any orderlies then they came to me what s the matter with you their tone was so official that i wrapped myself tighter in the half length coat i had a blanket on too an orange one aunt tanya s i said i m fine uncle arkady came over and was soothing me and then told the doctor you leave let a woman examine her a woman came an azerbaijani i believe and said what s wrong with you i was wearing my sister lyuda s nightshirt the sister who at this time was in yerevan when she was nursing her infant she had cut out a big hole in it so that it would be easier to breast feed the baby i tore the night shirt some more and showed her i took it off my shoulders and turned my back to her there was a huge wound about the size of a hand on my back from the indian vase she said something to them and they gave me two shots she said that it should be dressed with something but that they d do that in the hospital they put me on a stretcher too they started looking for people to carry me i raised up my head a little and wanted to sit up and this woman i don t know if she was a doctor or a nurse said lie still you mustn t move when i was lying back down i saw two policemen leading a man his profile seemed very familiar to me i shouted stop one of the policemen turned and says what do you want i say bring him to me i want to look at him they brought him over and i said that person was just in our apartment and he just raped me and my sister i recognize him note it down they said fine but didn t write it down and led him on i don t know where they were taking him then they put my stretcher near where the injured and beaten soldiers were sitting they went to look for the ambulance driver so he would bring the car up closer one of the soldiers started talking to me sister i don t remember the conversation exactly but he asked me were we lived and what they did to us i asked him where are you from he said that he was from ufa apparently they were the first that were brought in the ufa police later i learned that they suffered most of all he says ok you re armenians they didn t get along with you but i m a russian he says what are they trying to kill me for oh i remembered something else when i went out onto the balcony with kuliyev for a hammer and nails i looked out the window and saw two azerbaijanis beating a soldier near the kindergarten he was pressed against the fence and he covered his head with his arms they were beating him with his own club the way he cried mamma made my skin crawl i don t know what they did to him if he s still alive or not and something else before he attack on our house we saw sheets clothes and some dishes flying from the third or fourth floor of the neighboring building but i didn t think it was azerbaijanis attacking armenians i thought that something was on fire or they were throwing something they didn t need out or someone was fighting with someone it was only later when they were burning a passenger car in the yard when the neighbors said that they were doing that to the armenians that i realized that this was serious that it was anti armenian they took karina and me to the sumgait maternity home mamma went to them too and said i ve been beaten too help me but they just ignored her my father went to them and said in a guilty voice as though it was his fault that he d been beaten and says my ribs hurt so much those creeps have probably broken my ribs please look at them the doctor says that s not my job urshan said fine i ll take you to my place and if we need a doctor i ll find you one i ll bring one and have him look at you and he drove them to his apartment marina and i stayed there they examined us i was more struck by what the doctor said than by what those azerbaijanis in our apartment did to us i wasn t surprised when they beat us they wanted to beat us but i was very surprised that in a soviet medical facility a woman who had taken the hippocratic oath could talk to victims like that by happy or unhappy coincidence we were seen by the doctor that had delivered our karina and she having examined karina said no problem you got off pretty good not like they did in kafan when you armenians were killing and raping our women karina was in such terrible condition that she couldn t say anything she would certainly have had something to say then they examined me the same story they put us in a separate ward no shots no medicinal powders no drugs absolutely none they didn t even give us tea all the women there soon found out that in ward such and such were armenians who had been raped and they started coming and peering through the keyhole the way people look at zoo animals karina didn t see this she was lying there and i kept her from seeing it they put ira b in our ward she had also been raped true she didn t have any serious bodily injuries but when she told me what had happened at their place i felt worse for them than i did for us because when they raped ira her daughter was in the room she was under the bed on which it happened and ira was holding her daughter s hand the one who was hiding under the bed when they were beating ira or taking her earrings off gold when she involuntarily let go of her daughter s hand her daughter took her hand again her daughter is in the fourth grade she s years old i felt really awful when i heard that ira asked them not to harm her daughter she said do what you want with me just leave my daughter alone well they did what they wanted they threatened to kill her daughter if she got in their way now i would be surprised if the criminals had behaved any other way that night it was simply bartholomew s night i say they did what they would love to do every day steal kill rape many are surprised that those animals didn t harm the children the beasts explained it like this this would be repeated in to years and those children would be grown and then as they put it we ll come take the pleasure out of their lives those children this was about the girls that would be young women in years they were thinking about their tomorrow because they were sure that there would be no trial and no investigation just as there was no trial or investigation in and that those girls could be of some use in years this i heard from the investigators one of the victims testified to it that s how they described their own natures that they would still be bloodthirsty in to years and in years they themselves said that and this too everyone is surprised that they didn t harm our marina many people say that they either were drunk or had smoked too much i don t know why their eyes were red maybe because they hadn t slept the night before maybe for some other reason i don t know but they hadn t been smoking and they weren t drunk i m positive because someone who has smoked will stop at nothing he has the urge to do and they spoke in a cultured fashion with marina little sister don t be afraid we won t harm you don t look over there where i was you might be frightened you re a muslim a muslim woman shouldn t see such things so they were really quite sober so we came out of that story alive each every day we have lived since it all happened bears the mark of that day it wasn t even a day of those several hours father still can t look us in the eyes he still feels guilty for what happened to karina mother and me because of his nerves he s started talk ing to himself i ve heard him argue with himself several times when he thought no one is listening listen he ll say what could i do what could i do alone how could i protect them i don t know where to find the words it s not that i m happy but i am glad that he didn t see it all happen that s the only thing they spared us or maybe it happened by chance of course he knows it all but there s no way you could imagine every last detail of what happened and there were so many conversations karina and i spoke together in private and we talked with mamma too but father was never present at those conversations we spare him that if you can say that and when the investigator comes to the house we don t speak with father present on february the next clay karina and i were discharged from the hospital first they released me but since martial law had been declared in the city the soldiers took me to the police precinct in an armored personnel carrier there were many people there armenian victims i met the tovmasian family there from them i learned that rafik and their uncle grant had died they were sure that both had died they were talking to me and raya rafik s wife and grant s daughter and her mother were both crying then they took us all out of the office on the first floor into the yard there s a little one room house outside there a recreation and reading area they took us in there the women were afraid to go because they thought that they were shooing us out of the police precinct because it had become so dangerous that even the people working at the precinct wanted to hide the women were shouting they explained to them we want to hide you better because it s possible there will be an attack on the police precinct we went into the little house there were no chairs or tables in there we had children with us and they were hungry we even had infants who needed to have their diapers changed no one had anything with them it was just awful they kept us there for hours from the window of the one room house you could see that there were azerbaijanis standing on the fences around the police precinct as though they were spying on us the police precinct is surrounded by a wall like a fence and it s electrified but if they were standing on the wall it means the electricity was shut off this brought great psychological pressure to bear on us particularly on those who hadn t just walked out of their apartments but who hadn t slept for hours or or those who had suffered physically and spiritually the ones who had lost family members for us it was another ordeal we were especially frightened when all the precinct employees suddenly disappeared we couldn t see a single person not in the courtyard and not in the windows we thought that they must have already been hiding under the building that they must have some secret room down there people were panicking they started throwing themselves at one another that s the way it is on a sinking ship we heard those people mainly young people whistling and whopping on the walls we felt that the end was approaching i was completely terrified i had left karina in the hospital and didn t know where my parents were i was sort of calm about my parents i was thinking only about karina if heaven forbid they should attack the hospital they would immediately tell them that there was an armenian in there and something terrible would happen to karina again and she wouldn t be able to take it then soldiers with dogs appeared when they saw the dogs some of the people climbed down off the fence then they brought in about another soldiers they all had machine guns in readiness their fingers on the triggers we calmed down a little they brought us chairs and brought the children some little cots and showed us where we could wash our hands and took the children to the toilet but we all sat there hungry but to be honest it would never have occurred to any of us that we hadn t eaten for two days and that people do eat then closer to nightfall they brought a group of detained criminals they were being watched by soldiers with guard dogs one of the men came back from the courtyard and told us about it raya tovmasian it was like a different woman had been substituted earlier she had been crying wailing and calling out oh rafik but when she heard about this such a rage came over her she jumped up she had a coat on and she started to roll up her sleeves like she was getting ready to beat someone and suddenly there were soldiers and dogs and lots of people she ran over to them the bandits were standing there with their hands above their heads facing the wall she went up to one of them and grabbed him by the collar and started to shake and thrash him then on to a second and a third everyone was rooted to the spot not one of the soldiers moved no one went up to help or made her stop her from doing it and the bandits fell down and covered their heads with their hands muttering something she came back and sat down and something akin to a smile appeared on her face she became so quiet no tears no cries then that round was over and she went back to beat them again she was walking and cursing terribly take that and that they killed my husband the bastards the creeps and so on then she came back again and sat down she probably did this the whole night through well it wasn t really night no one slept she went five or six times and beat them and returned and she told the women what are you sitting there for they killed your husbands and children they raped and you re just sitting there you re sitting and talking as though nothing had happened aren t you armenians she appealed to everyone but no one got up i was just numb i didn t have the strength to beat anyone i could barely hold myself up all the more so since i had been standing for so many hours i was released at eleven o clock in the morning and it was already after ten at night because there weren t enough chairs really it was the elderly and women with children who sat i was on my feet the whole time there was nothing to breathe the door was closed and the men were smoking the situation was deplorable at eleven o clock at night policemen came for us local policemen azerbaijanis they said get up they ve brought mattresses you can wash up and put the children to bed now the women didn t want to leave this place either the place had become like home it was safe there were soldiers with dogs if anyone went outside the soldiers would say oh it s our little family and things like that the soldiers felt this love and probably for the first time in their lives perceived themselves as defenders everyone spoke from the heart cried and hugged them and they with their loaded machine guns in their hands said grandmother you mustn t approach me i m on guard our people would say oh that s all right they hugged them one woman even kissed one of the machine guns this was all terribly moving for me and the small children kept wanting to pet the dogs they took us up to the second floor and said you can undress and sleep in here don t be afraid the precinct is on guard and it s quiet in the city this was the th when the killing was going on in block a and in other places then we were told that all the armenians were being gathered at the sk club and at the city party committee they took us there on the way i asked them to stop at the maternity home i wanted to take karina with me i didn t know what was happening there they told me don t worry the maternity home is full of soldiers more than mothers to be so you can rest assured i say well i won t rest assured regardless because the staff in there is capable of anything when i arrived at the city party committee it turned out that karina had already been brought there they had seen fit to release her from the hospi tal deciding that she felt fine and was no longer in need of any care once we were in the city party committee we gave free reign to our tears we met acquaintances but everyone was somehow divided into two groups those who hadn t been injured who were clothed who had brought a pot of food with them and so on and those like me like raya who were wearing whatever had come their way there were even people who were all made up dolled up like they had come from a wedding there were people without shoes naked people hungry people those who were crying and those who had lost someone and of course the stories and the talk were flying oh i heard that they killed him what do you mean they killed him he stayed at work do you know what s happening at this and such a plant talk like that and then i met aleksandr mikhailovich gukasian the teacher i know him very well and respect him highly i ve known him for a long time they had a small room well really it was more like a study room we spent a whole night talking in that study once on march we heard that bagirov first secretary of the communist party of azerbaijan ssr had arrived everyone ran to see bagirov what news he had brought with him and how this was all being viewed from outside he arrived and everyone went up to him to talk to him and ask him things everyone was in a tremendous rage but he was protected by soldiers and he went up to the second floor and didn t deign to speak with the people apparently he had more important things to do several hours passed gukasian called me and says lyudochka find another two or three we re going to make up lists they asked for them upstairs lists of the dead those whose whereabouts are unknown and lists of people who had pogroms of their apartments and of those whose cars were burned i had about people in my list when they called me and said lyuda your mamma has arrived she s looking for you she doesn t believe that you are alive and well and that you re here i gave the lists to someone and asked them to continue what i was doing and went off the list was imprecise of course it included grant adamian raya tovmasian s father who was alive but at the time they thought him dead there was engels grigorian s father and aunt cherkez and maria the list also included the name of my girlfriend and neighbor zhanna agabekian one of the guys said that he had been told that they chopped her head off in the courtyard in front of the kosmos movie theater we put her on the list too and cried but later it turned out that that was just a rumor that in fact an hour earlier she had somehow left sumgait for the marina and from there had set sail for krasnovodsk where thank god she was alive and well i should also say that in addition to those who died that list contained people who were rumored missing or who were so badly wounded that they were given up for dead all the lists were taken to bagirov i don t remember how many dead were contained in the list but it s a fact that when gukasian came in a couple of minutes later he was cursing and was terribly irate i asked what s going on he said lyuda can you imagine what animals what scoundrels they are they say that they lost the list of the dead piotr demichev member of the politburo of the central committee of the communist party of the ussr has just arrived and we were supposed to submit the list to him so that he d see the scope of the slaughter of the tragedy whether it was one or fifty they told him that the list had disappeared and they should ask everyone who hadn t left for the khimik boarding house all over again there were people on our second list i think that the number was the one that got into the press and onto television and the radio because that s the list that demichev got i remember exactly that there were people on the list i had even told aleksandr mikhailovich that that was only a half of those that were on the first list he said lyuda please try to remember at least one more but i couldn t remember anyone else but there were more than dead of that i am certain the government and the procuracy don t count the people who died of fright like sick people and old people whose lives are threatened by any shock they weren t registered as victims of the sumgait tragedy and then there may be people we didn t know so many people left sumgait between march and most of them left for smaller towns in russia and especially to the northern caucasus to stavropol and the krasnodarsk territory we don t have any information on them i know that there are people who set out for parts around moscow in the periodical krestyanka woman farmer there was a call for people who know how to milk cows and for mechanics and drivers and i know a whole group of people went to help out also clearly not on our list are those people who died entering the city who were burned in their cars no one knows about them except the azerbaijanis who are hardly likely to say anything about it and there s more a great many of the people who were raped were not included in the list drawn up at the procuracy i know of three instances for sure and i of course don t know them all i m thinking of three women whose parents chose not to publicize what had happened that is they didn t take the matter to court they simply left but in so doing they didn t cease being victims one of them is the first cousin of my classmate kocharian she lived in microdistrict no on the fifth floor i can t tell you the building number and i don t know her name then comes the neighbor of one of my relatives she lived in microdistrict near the gift shop i don t know her name she lives on the same landing as the sumgait procurator they beat her father he was holding the door while his daughter hid but he couldn t hold the door forever and when she climbed over the balcony to the neighbors they seized her by her braid like the azerbaijanis were saying it was a very cultured mob because they didn t kill anyone they only raped them and left and the third one i don t remember who the third one was anymore they transferred us on march karina still wasn t herself yes we lived for days in the sk in the cultural facility and at the khimik they lived there and i lived at the city party committee because i couldn t stay with karina it was too difficult for me but i was at peace she had survived i could already walk but really it was honest words that held me up thanks to the social work i did there i managed to persevere aleksandr mikhailovich said if it weren t for the work i would go insane he and i put ourselves in gear and took everything upon ourselves someone had an infant and needed diapers and free food and we went to get them the first days we bought everything although we should have received it for free they were supposed to have been dispensed free of charge and they sold it to us then when we found out it was free we went to krayev at the time fortunately you could still drop by to see him like a neighbor all the more so since everything was still clearly visible on our faces krayev sent a captain down and he resolved the issue on march they sent two investigators to see us andrei shirokov and vladimir fedorovich bibishev the way it worked out in our family they had considered only karina and me victims maybe because she and i wound up in the hospital mother and father are considered witnesses but not victims shirokov was involved with karina s case and bibishev with mine after i told him everything he and i planned to sit down with the identikit and record everyone i could remember while everything was still fresh in my mind we didn t work with the identikit until the very last day because the conditions weren t there the investigative group worked slowly and did poor quality work solely because the situation wasn t conducive to working there weren t enough automobiles especially during the time when there was a curfew and there were no typewriters for typing transcripts and no still or video cameras i think that this was done on purpose we re not so poor that we can t supply our investigators with all that stuff it was done especially to draw out the investigation all the more so since the local authorities saw that the armenians were leaving at the speed of light never to return to sumgait and the armenians had a lot to say i came to an agreement with bibishev i told him myself don t you worry if it takes us a month or two months i ll be here i m not afraid i looked death in the eyes five times in those two days i ll help you conduct the investigation he and i worked together a great deal and i used this to shelter karina i gave them so much to do that for a while they didn t have the time to get to her so that she would at least have a week or two to get back to being her self she was having difficulty breathing so we looked for a doctor to take x rays she couldn t eat or drink for nine days she was nauseous i didn t eat and drank virtually nothing for five days then on the fifth day when we were in baku already the investigator told me how long can you go on like this well fine so you don t want to eat you don t love yourself you re not taking care of yourself but you gave your word that you would see this investigation through we need you then i started eating because in fact i was exhausted it wasn t enough that i kept seeing those faces in our apart ment in my mind every day i went to the investigative solitary confinement cells and prisons i don t know we were just everywhere probably in every prison in the city of baku and in all the solitary confinement cells of sumgait at that time they had even turned the drunk tank into solitary confinement thus far i have identified of the people who were in our apartment mamma identified three and karina two the total is marina didn t identify anyone she remembers the faces of two or three but they weren t among the photographs of those detained i told of the neighbor i recognized the one who went after the axe he still hasn t been detained he s still on the loose he s gone and it s not clear if he will be found or not i don t know his first or last name i know which building he lived in and i know his sisters faces but he s not in the city the investigators informed me that even if the investigation is closed and even if the trial is over they will continue looking for him the people i identified are largely blue collar workers from various plants without education and of the very lowest level in every respect mostly their ages range from to years there was one who was only one of them was a student he was attending the azerbaijan petroleum and chemical institute in sumgait his mother kept trying to bribe the investiga tor once thinking that i was an employee and not a victim she said in front of me i ll set you up a restaurant worth rubles and give you in cash simply for keeping him out of armenia that is to keep him from landing in a prison on armenian soil they re all terribly afraid of that because if the investigator is talking with a criminal and the criminal doesn t confess even though we identified him they tell him in order to apply psychological pressure they say fine don t confess just keep silent when you re in an armenian prison when they find out who you are they ll take care of you in short order that somehow gets to them many give in and start to talk the investigators and i were in our apartment and videotaped the entire pogrom of our apartment as an investigative experiment it was only then that i saw the way they had left our apartment even without knowing who was in our apartment you could guess they stole for example all the money and all the valuables but didn t take a single book they tore them up burned them poured water on them and hacked them with axes only the materials from the th congress of the communist party of the soviet union and james fenimore cooper s last of the mohigans oh yes lunch was ready we were boiling a chicken and there were lemons for tea on the table after they had been in our apartment both the chicken and the lemons were gone that s enough to tell you what kind of people were in our apartment people who don t even know anything about books they didn t take a single book but they did take worn clothing food and even the cheapest of the cheap worn out slippers of those whom i identified four were kafan azerbaijanis living in sumgait basically the group that went seeking revenge let s use their word for it was joined by people seeking easy gain and thrill seekers i talked with one of them he had gray eyes and somehow against the back drop of all that black i remembered him specifically because of his of his eyes besides taking part in the pogrom of our apartment he was also involved in the murder of tamara mekhtiyeva from building she was an older armenian who had recently arrived from georgia she lived alone and did not have anyone in sumgait i don t know why she had a last name like that maybe she was married to an azerbaijani i had laid eyes on this woman only once or twice and know nothing about her i do know that they murdered her in her apartment with an axe murdering her wasn t enough for them they hacked her into pieces and threw them into the tub with water i remember another guy really well too he was also rather fair skinned you know all the people who were in our apartment were darker than dark both their hair and their skin and in contrast with them in addition to the grey eyed one i remember this one fellow the one l took to be a lezgin i identified him as it turned out he was eduard robertovich grigorian born in the city of sumgait and he had been convicted twice one of our own how did i remember him the name rita was tattooed on his left or right hand i kept thinking is that rita or puma which it would be if you read the word as latin characters instead of cyrillic because the cyrillic t was the one that looks like a latin m when they led him in he sat with his hands behind his back this was at the confrontation he swore on every holy book tried to put in an armenian word here and there to try and spark my compassion and told me that i was making a mistake and called me dear sister he said you re wrong how could i an armenian raise my hand against my own an armenian and so on he spoke so convincingly that even the investigator asked me lyuda are you sure it was he i told him i ll tell you one more identifying mark if i m wrong i shall apologize and say i was mistaken the name rita is tattooed on his left or right hand he went rigid and became pale they told him put your hands on the table he put his hands on the table with the palms up i said now turn your hands over but he didn t turn his hands over now this infuriated me if he had from the very start acknowledged his guilt and said that he hadn t wanted to do it that they forced him or something else i would have treated him somewhat differently but he insolently stuck to his story no i did not do anything it wasn t me when they turned his hands over the name rita was in fact tattooed on his hand his face distorted and he whispered something wicked i immediately flew into a rage there was an ashtray on the table a really heavy one made out of granite or something very large and it had ashes and butts in it catching myself quite by surprise i hurled that ashtray at him but he ducked and the ashtray hit the wall and ashes and butts rained down on his head and back and he smiled when he smiled it provoked me further i don t know how but i jumped over the table between us and started either pounding him or strangling him i no longer remember which when i jumped i caught the microphone cord the investigator was there tolya i no longer recall his last name and he says lyudochka it s a japanese microphone please and shut off all the equipment on the spot it was all being video taped they took him away i stayed and they talked to me a little to calm me down because we needed to go on working i only remember tolya telling me you re some actress what a performance i said tolya honestly beforehand they would always tell me lyuda more emotion you speak as calmly as if nothing had happened to you i say i don t have any more strength or emotion all my emotions are behind me now i no longer have the strength i don t have the strength to do anything and he says lyuda how were you able to do that and when i returned to normal drinking tea and watching the tape i said can i really have jumped over that table i never jumped that high in gym class so you could say the gang that took over our apartment was international of the we identified there was an armenian a russian vadim vorobyev who beat mamma and azerbaijanis at the second meeting with grigorian when he had completely confessed his guilt he told of how on february the azerbaijanis had come knocking among them were guys if you can call them guys he knew from prison they said tomorrow we re going after the armenians meet us at the bus station at three o clock he said no i m not coming they told him if you don t come we ll kill you he said alright i ll come and he went they also went to visit my classmate from our microdistrict kamo pogosian he had also been in prison i think that together they had either stolen a motorcycle or dismantled one to get some parts they needed they called him out of his apartment and told him the same thing tomorrow we re going to get the armenians be there he said no they pulled a knife on him he said i m not going all the same and in the courtyard on the th they stabbed him several times in the stomach he was taken to the hospital i know he was in the hospital in baku in the republic hospital if we had known about that we would have had some idea of what was to come on the th i ll return to grigorian what he did in our apartment i remember that he beat me along with all the rest he spoke azerbaijani extremely well but he was very fair skinned maybe that led me to think that they had it out for him too but later it was proved that he took part in the beating and burning of shagen sargisian i don t know if he participated in the rapes in our apartment i didn t see i don t remember but the people who were in our apartment who didn t yet know that he was an armenian said that he did i don t know if he confessed or not and i myself don t recall because i blacked out very often but i think that he didn t participate in the rape of karina because he was in the apartment the whole time when they carried her into the courtyard he remained in the apartment at one point i was talking with an acquaintance about edik grigorian from her i learned that his wife was a dressmaker his mother is russian he doesn t have a father and that he s been convicted twice well this will be his third and i hope last sentence he beat his wife she was eternally coming to work with bruises his wife was an armenian by the name of rita the others who were detained well they re little beasts you really can t call them beasts they re just little beasts they were robots carrying out someone else s will because at the investigation they all said i don t understand how i could have done that i was out of my head but we know that they were won around to it and prepared for it that s why they did it in the name of allah in the name of the koran in the name of propagating islam that s holy to them that s why they did everything they were commanded to do because i saw they didn t have minds of their own i m not talking about their level of cultural sophistication or any higher values no education they work have a slew of children without the means to raise them properly they crowd them in like at the temporary housing and apparently they were promised that if they slaughtered the armenians they would receive apartments so off they went many of them explained their participation saying they promised us apartments among them was one who genuinely repented i am sure that he repented from the heart and that he just despised himself after the incident he worked at a children s home an azerbaijani he has two children and his wife works at the children s home too everything that they acquired everything that they have they earned by their own labor and wasn t inherited from parents or grandparents and he said i didn t need anything i just don t know how i ended up in that it was like some hand was guiding me i had no will of my own i had no strength no masculine dignity nothing and the whole time i kept repeating now you imagine that someone did the same to your young wife right before your own eyes he sat there and just wailed but that leader in the eskimo dogskin coat was not detained he performed a marvelous disappearing act but i think that they ll get onto him they just have to work a little because that vadim that boy according to his grandfather is in touch with the young person who taught him what to do how to cover his tracks he was constantly exchanging jackets with other boys he knew and those he didn t either and other things as well and changed himself like a chameleon so they wouldn t get onto him but he was detained that one in the eskimo dogskin coat was at the gambarians after aleksandr gambarian was murdered he came in and said let s go enough you ve spilled enough blood here maybe karina doesn t know this but the reason they didn t finish her off was that they were hoping to take her home with them i heard this from aunt tanya and her sons the kasumovs who were in the courtyard near the entryway they liked her very much and they had decided to take her to home with them when karina came to at one point she doesn t remember this yet this the neighbors old me and she saw that there was no one around her she started crawling to the entryway they saw that she was still alive and came back they were already at the third entryway on their way to the gambarians they came back and started beating her to finish her if she had not come to she would have sustained lesser bodily injuries they would have beat her less an older woman from our building aunt nazan an azerbaijani all but lay on top of karina crying and pleading that they leave her alone but they flung her off the woman s grown sons were right nearby they picked her up in their hands and led her home she howled and cried out loudly and swore god is on earth he sees everything and he won t forgive this there was another woman too aunt fatima a sick aging woman from the first floor she s already retired mountain dwellers and azerbaijanis too have a custom if men are fighting they throw a scarf under their feet to stop them but they trampled her scarf and sent her home to trample a scarf is tantamount to trampling a woman s honor now that the investigation is going on now that a lot is behind us and we have gotten back to being ourselves a little i think about how could these events that are now called the sumgait tragedy happen how did they come about how did it start could it have been avoided well it s clear that without a signal without permission from the top leadership it would not have happened all the same i m not afraid to say this the azerbaijanis let other worthy people take no offense the better representatives of their nations let them take no offense but the azerbaijanis in their majority are a people who are kept in line only by fear of the law fear of retribution for what they have done and when the law said that they could do all that like unleashed dogs who were afraid they wouldn t have time to do everything they threw themselves from one thing to the next so as to be able to get more done to snatch a bit more the smell of the danger was already in the air on february you could tell that something was going to happen and everyone who had figured it out took steps to avoid running into those gangs many left for their dachas got plane tickets for the other end of the country just got as far away as their legs would carry them february was a saturday i was teaching my third class the director came into my classroom and said that i should let the children out that there had been a call from the city party committee asking that all teachers gather for a meeting at lenin square well i excused the children and there were few teachers left at school altogether three women the director and six or seven men the rest had already gone home we got to lenin square and there were a great many people there this was around five thirty or six in the evening no later they were saying all kinds of rubbish up on the podium and the crowd below was supporting them stormily roaring they spoke over the microphone about what had happened in kafan a few days earlier and that the driver of a bus going to some district had recently thrown a small azerbaijani child off the bus the speaker affirmed that he was an eyewitness that he had seen it himself the crowd started to rage death to the armenians they must be killed then a woman went up on stage i didn t see the woman because people were clinging to the podium like flies i could only hear her the woman introduced herself as coming from kafan and said that the armenians cut her daughters breasts off and called sons avenge my daughters that was enough a portion of the people on the square took off running in the direction of the factories toward the beginning of lenin street we stood there about an hour then the director of school spoke he gave a very nationalist speech he said brother muslims kill the armenians this he repeated every other sentence when he said this the crowd supported him stormily whistling and shouting karabagh he said karabagh has been our territory my whole life long karabagh is my soul how can you tear out my heart as though an azerbaijani would die without karabagh it s our territory the armenians will never see it the armenians must be eliminated from time immemorial muslims have cleansed the land of infidel armenians from time immemorial that s the way nature created it that every to years the azerbaijanis should cleanse the land of filth by filth he meant armenians i heard this before that i hadn t been listening to the speeches closely many people spoke and i stood with my back to the podium talking shop with the other teachers and somehow it all went right by it didn t penetrate that in fact something serious was taking place then when one of our teachers said listen to what he s saying listen to what idiocy he s spouting we listened that was the speech of that director before that we listened to the woman s speech right then in our group there were nine of us the mood changed and the subject of conversation and all school matters were forgotten our director of studies for whom i had great respect he s an azerbaijani before that i had considered him an upstanding and worthy person if there was a need to obtain leave we had asked him he seemed like a good person so he tells me lyuda you know that besides you there are no armenians on the square if they find out that you re an armenian they ll tear you to pieces should i tell them you re an armenian should i tell them you re an armenian when he said it the first time i pretended not to hear it and then he asked me a second time i turned to the director khudurova and said that it was already after eight i was expected at home and i should be leaving she answered no they said that women should stay here until ten o clock and men until twelve stay here there was a young teacher with us her children were in kindergarten and her husband worked shifts she asked to leave i left my children at the kindergarten the director excused her when she let her go i turned around said good bye and left with the young teacher the azerbaijani i didn t see them after that when we were walking the buses weren t running and a crowd from the rally ran nearby us they had apparently gotten all fired up it must have become too much for them and they wanted to seek vengeance immediately so they rushed off i wasn t afraid this time because i was sure that the other teacher wouldn t say that i was an armenian to make it short we reached home then karina told of how they had been at the movies and what had happened there i started telling of my experience and again my parents didn t understand that we were in danger we watched television as usual and didn t even imagine that tomorrow would be our last day that s how it all was at the city party committee i met an acquaintance we went to school together zhanna i don t remember her last name she lives above the housewares store on narimanov street she was there with her father for some reason she doesn t have a mother the two of them were at home alone while her father held the door she jumped from the third floor and she was lucky that the ground was wet and that there wasn t anyone behind the building when she went out on the balcony there was no one there they were all standing near the entryway that building was also a lucky one in that there were no murders there she jumped she jumped and didn t feel any pain in the heat of the moment a few days later i found out that she couldn t stand up she had been injured somehow that s how people in sumgait saved their lives their honor and their children any way they could where it was possible the armenians fought back my father s first cousin armen m lives in block they found out by phone from one of the victims what was going on in town the armenians in that building all called one another immediately and all of them armed themselves with axes knives even with muskets and went up to the roof they took their infants with them and their old women who had been in bed for god knows how many months they got them right out of their beds and took everyone upstairs they hooked electricity up to the trap door to the roof and waited ready to fight then they took the daughter of the school board director hostage she s an azerbaijani who lived in their building they called the school board director and told her that if she didn t help them the armenians on the roof to escape alive and unharmed she d never see her daughter again i m sure of course that armenians would never lay a hand on a woman it was just the only thing that could have saved them at the time she called the police the armenians made a deal with the local police to go into town two armored personnel carriers and soldiers were summoned they surrounded the entryway and led everyone down from the roof and off to the side from the armored personnel carriers was a crowd that was on its way to the building at that very moment into block that s how they defended themselves i heard that our neighbors roman and sasha gambarian resisted they re big strong guys their father was killed and i heard that the brothers put up a strong defense and lost their father but were able to save their mother one of the neighbors told me that after it happened when they were looking for the criminals on march to and detaining everyone they suspected people hid people in our entryway maybe people who were injured or perhaps dead the neighbors themselves were afraid to go there and when they went with the soldiers into our basement they are supposed to have found azerbaijani corpses i don t know how many even if they had been wounded and put down there after two days they would have died from loss of blood or infection that basement was filled with water i heard this from the neighbors and later when i was talking with the investigators the subject came up and they confirmed it i know too that for several hours the basement was used to store objects stolen from our apartment and our neighbor carried out our carpet along with the rest he stole it for himself posing as one of the criminals everyone was taking his own share and the neighbor took his too and carried it home and when we came back when everything seemed to have calmed down he returned it saying that it was the only thing of ours he had managed to save raya s husband and father defended themselves the trdatovs defended themselves and so did other armenian families to be sure there were azerbaijani victims although we ll never hear anything about them for some reason our government doesn t want to say that the armenians were not just victims but that they defended the honor of their sisters and mothers too in the tv show pozitsiya viewpoint a military man an officer said that the armenians did virtually nothing to defend themselves but that s not important the truth will come out regardless so that s the price we paid those three days for three days our courage our bravery and our humanity was tested it was those three days and not the years and dozens of years we had lived before them that showed what we ve become what we grew up to be those three days showed who was who on that i will conclude my narrative on the sumgait tragedy it should be said that it s not over yet the trials are still ahead of us and the punishments received by those who so violated us who wanted to make us into nonhumans will depend on our position and on the work of the investigators the procuracy and literally of every person who lent his hand to the investiga tion that s the price we paid to live in armenia to not fear going out on the street at night to not be afraid to say we re armenians and to not fear speaking our native tongue october yerevan reference for the sumgait tragedy pogroms against armenians in soviet azerbaijan volume i eyewitness accounts edited by samuel shahmuradian forward by yelena bonner published by aristide d caratzas ny pages david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org how do we explain turkish troops on s d p a center for regional studies the armenian border when we can t p o box even explain cambridge ma turkish mp march
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re final solution for gaza dear folks i am still awaiting for some sensible answer and comment it is a fact that the inhabitants of gaza are not entitled to a normal civlized life they habe been kept under occupation by israel since without civil and political rights it is a fact that gazans live in their own country palestine gaza is not a foriegn country nor is telaviv jaffa askalon beersheba foreign country for gazans all these places are occupied as far as palestinians are concerned and as far as common sense has it it is a fact that zionists deny gazans equal rights as israeli citizens and the right to determine by themsevles their government when zionists will begin to consider gazans as human beings who deserve the same rights as themselves there will be hope for peace not before somebody mentioned that gaza is foreign country and therefore israel is entitled to close its borders to gaza in this case gaza should be entitled to reciprocate and deny israeli civilians and military personnel to enter the area as the relation is not symmetrical but that of a master and slave the label foreign country is inaccurate and misleading to close off people in the strip deny them means of subsistence and means of defending themselves is a collective punishment and a crime it is neither justifiable nor legal it just reflects the abyss to which israeli society has degraded i would like to ask any of those who heap foul langauge on me to explain why israel denies gazans who were born and brought up in jaffa to return and live there would they be allowed to if they converted to judaism is their right to live in their former town depdendent upon their religion or ethnic origin please give an honest answer elias
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re desertification of the negev danhy as you think bedouin will be surprised by the posted article i would be happy to have some feedback from bedouin readers if you will i cannot judge the accuracy of the article but assumes that it is no fabrication any critical review would be helpful elias
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what a hate filled newsgroup is this group for real i honestly can t believe that most of you expect you or your concerns to be taken remotely seriously if you behave this way in a forum for discussion doesn t it ever occur to those of you who write letters like the majority of those in this group that you re being mind bogglingly hypocritical
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re israel s expansion ii in article apr donau et tudelft nl avi duteinh et tudelft nl avi cohen stuart writes from article pp a auvm american edu by paul h pimentel pp a auvm american edu what gives isreal the right to keep jeruseleum it is the home of the muslim a s well as jewish religion among others heck nobody ever mentions what yitza k shamir did forty or fifty years ago which is terrorize westerners much in the way abdul nidal does today seems isrealis are nowhere above arabs so theref ore they have a right to jerusaleum as much as isreal does there is one big difference between israel and the arabs christians in this respect israel allows freedom of religion avi avi for your information islam permits freedom of religion there is no compulsion in religion does judaism permit freedom of religion i e are non jews recognized in judaism just wondering steve
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re pbs frontline iran and the bomb in article c lihi ccu umanitoba ca ebrahim ee umanitoba ca mohamad ebrahimi writes i would like to share with netters a few points i picked up from the pbs frontline program regarding iran s nuclear activities aired on tuesday april for the sake of brevity i ll present them in some separate points already say it the other week on cbc snoozeworld as many other western programs this program was laid on a bed of misinformation throughout the program to maximize the effect of the program on the viewer some of the misinformations were as follows yeah i thought bonanza was full of lies about the west while the number of martyrs during the sacred defense against iraqi aggression has been officially announced to be about and even most radical counter revolutionary groups claim that iran and iraq had a total of one million dead this program claims that iran alone has one million dead left from the war the translation of iranian officials talks are not true for example when iranian head of atomic energy says that it hurts me to see that iran is the subject of these unfriendly propaganda the translator says it hurts to see that iran is doing unfriendly research almost all alleged devices or material bought or planned to be bought by iranians were of countless dual usage while the program tries to undermine their non military uses without any reference to iran s big population and its inevitable need to other sources of energy in near future and its current deficit in electrical power why the hell would such an oil rich and hydroelectric potential to be exploited spend billions on a nuclear energy programme the whole program is trying to show the sharif university of technology as a nuclear research center while even the cameramen of the program know well that in a country like iran without a so tightly closed society no one can make a nuclear bomb in a university taking in account the scientific advancement of sharif u in engineering fields and its potential role in improvement of iran s industries and eventually the lives of people it is obvious that they are persuading other countries to prevent them from further helping this university or other ones in scientific and industrial efforts a key point in program s justifications is trying to disvalidate as much as possible all efforts done by iaea in their numerous visits from iran s different sites they say we are not sure if the places visited by iaea are the real ones or not or we can not rely on iaea s reports and observation because they failed to see iraq s nuclear activities before as if they didn t know that iraq was trying to build nuclear weapons yeah and we have every reason in the world to trust the iranian regime after all they ve been so forward with us in the past as an extremely personal opinion the most disgusting aspect of the program was the arrogance of the member of us senate foreign affairs william triplet in his way of talking as if he was the god talking from the absolute knowledge maybe he is god i hope all iranians be aware of the gradual buildup against their country in western media and i hope iranian authorities continue to their wise and calculated approach with regard to international affairs and peaceful coexistence with friendly nations hahahahahahaahah mohammad international atomic energy agency
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pbs frontline documentary memory of the camps yesterday i watched an outstanding documentary on pbs prepared for frontline by the documentary consortia it is called memory of the camps and shows some un censored pictures taken immediately after the liberation of bergen belsen and other death camps i recommend it to everybody check with your pbs station for re broadcast it is a must see documentary in the seatle vancouver area ksts will re broadcast the documentary on monday am you can also order a copy from pbs video the cost is danny
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re deir yassin in article apr cs rit edu bdm cs rit edu brendan d mckay writes in article r f ge morrow stanford edu as vxf forsythe stanford edu vic filler writes you have a lot to learn when it comes to historical methodology that s true i try to learn from people who know more than me not from useless farts and anyone who doesn t agree with you is by your own definitions a useless fart just like any text that disputes your own findings is always described as flawed or biased in other words you trumpet the things you like and dismiss those that might embarass you we ve seen you play these games here for a long time one thing is for sure when it comes to useless farts you sure know what you re talking about jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president
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re final solution for gaza in article igc apc org cpr igc apc org center for policy research writes the gaza strip this tiny area of land with the highest population density in the world has been cut off from the world for weeks another cpr non fact the israeli occupier has decided to punish the whole population of gaza some people by denying them the right to leave the strip and seek work in israel actually they are free to leave and seek work in egypt except that the egyptians don t want them either and who are you going to blame if when gazans establish their own state of gaza palestine while polish non jews risked their lives to save jews from the ghetto no israeli jew is known to have risked his life to help the gazan resistance the only help given to gazans by israeli jews only dozens of people is humanitarian assistance actually one such jew who did risk his life to help gazan arabs was hacked to death by palestinean murderers just last week it seems that the risk has been primarily from the arabs in need of help this is also true for telephone repairmen traders who seek to buy agricultural products from gazans israeli soldiers who get involved in fighting between feuding palestinean groups that are as determined to destroy each other as they are to destroy outsiders the right of the gazan population to resist occupation is recognized in international law and by any person with a sense of justice a population denied basic human rights is entitled to rise up against its tormentors i just wanna see you try this here in the usa you know what s going to happen as is known the israeli regime is considering gazans unworthy of israeli citizenship and equal rights in israel although they are considered worthy to do the dirty work in israeli hotels shops and fields many gazans are born in towns and villages located in israel they may not live there for these areas are reserved for the master race okay that s enough i m not going to read this posting of yours any further elias davidsson iceland jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president
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re symbiotics zionism antisemitism in article igc apc org cpr igc apc org center for policy research writes the first point to note regarding the appropriation of the history of the holocaust by zionist propaganda is that zionism without anti semitism is impossible zionism agrees with the basic tenet of anti semitism namely that jews cannot live with non jews that s why the zionists decided that zion must be gentile rein what they didn t you mean to tell me that the early zionists actually granted citizenship in the jewish state to christian and muslim people too it seems elias that your first point to note is wrong so the rest of your posting isn t worth much either ta ta jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president
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re gaza and separation from israel in article igc apc org center for policy research cpr igc apc org writes the israeli left s inability to cope with the challenges it is presented with by reality becomes obvious at those moments when the reality does not line up with the expectations of the left we were able to see this clearly during the gulf war because of the palestinian s popular solidarity with iraq yossi sarid currently minister of the environment made his infamous statement you look for me i e i am not making any more efforts to speak with you from yossi sarid s point of view palestinian reality during the gulf war was not the lengthy curfew or the danger of hunger it brought with it but whether or not the palestinians accepted what was acceptable to the party similarly meretz mk deddi tzuker recently faced with criticism from residents of the west bank town of beit sahour over his government s and his party s lack of action for human rights and peace responded by asking those present at the discussion whether they would rather have a likud government from the leftists perspective this is the best government because it is their government regardless of what it does these members of the israeli left have already decided how the future of the occupied territories will look and they want to dictate to the palestinians how to get there when someone starts criticizing the leftists for not being leftist enough we get a pretty clear idea of what they believe to be normal i hope that your not still calling yourself fair and unbiased elias jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president
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re bb confessions in article apr thunder mcrcim mcgill edu ahmeda mcrcim mcgill edu ahmed abu abed writes in article c hu q cg news cso uiuc edu eshneken ux cso uiuc edu edward a shnekendorf writes cl cleveland freenet edu hamaza h salah writes in a previous article friedenb sapphire egr msu edu gedaliah friedenberg says for all those interested i would like to inform all that binyamin netanyahu leader of the israeli likud party will be interviewed on cnn tonight on larry king live didn t this guy go crying on the zionist tv confessing that he committed adultary and was cheating on his wife a typical jew leader huh yes he is actually the typical muslim arab leader hides the fact that he commited adultery by choosing a camel over his husband or a small male child whichever is more readily availible cl cleveland freenet edu h a m z a ed but the irony is that the jewish population has no problem in electing a leader who has confessed to having an extra marrital affair this is a first aa what else do you expect israel is trying to portray itself as the great democracy one requirement is to have a leader who previously had an extra marital affair e g bill clinton it helps if your wife says it s ok steve
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re more on adl spying case i don t think yigal and his friends have had as much fun for years if ever as they re getting over this adl business the publicity is likely to generate some speaker s fees too mark
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re israel s expansion in apr nysernet org astein nysernet org alan stein writes the golan heights is a serious security problem and israel obviously will have to keep part of it and give up part of it one should remember that the golan heights had been part of the area that was to be in britain s palestine mandate slated to become part of the jewish state until britain traded it to france for other considerations in other words it is an historical accident that it was ever part of syria the palestine mandate had no borders before the borders were negotiated and drawn the most the golan may have been is on the list of what territories britian would have liked to see in the palestine mandate until the mandates came into existance there were no defined boundaries between any of the various territories in the region if you have a source for any of these claims then please present it
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