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re lincoln slavery re top ten tricks you can play on the american voter in article apr princeton edu glhewitt phoenix princeton edu gary livingston hewitt writes in article apr rigel econ uga edu depken rigel econ uga edu craig depken writes to which is concluded the south only wanted free trade no they wanted slavery if free trade was in their economic interests under that regime which it was then free trade they wanted too but gary l hewitt glhewitt phoenix princeton edu of course free trade and slavery don t make much sense together in a phrase anyway perhaps mr depken meant low import tariffs but that is quite a bit less than free trade clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
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re rodney king trial civil rights violations double jeopardy in article c pul cl ncratl atlantaga ncr com mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr com mark wilson writes in apr husc harvard edu spanagel husc harvard edu david spanagel writes furthermore what are the specific charges against the four lapd officers which civil rights or laws are they accused of violating i believe it is a general charge that is no specific right is mentioned i don t think that this is accurate i believe and could be wrong that there is a specific right allegedly to have been violated like the th or due process or whatever what about double jeopardy has there been any concern that a verdict against koon et al might be overturned upon appeal because they re being tried again for the same actions i thought i heard something on the news about this the ss has previously ruled that since the seperate governments were in essence seperate sovereigns then double jeopardy does not apply if this is true then could defendents also be tried under city and county governments this mornings paper said that the aclu has decided to reinstate its opposition to this kind of thing they had earlier suspended their opposition while they examined the king case there might be hope for the aclu after all double jeopardy does not apply but not for the reasons you quote double jeopardy states that a person may not be tried twice on the same charge however the police are not on trial for the crime of excessive force or assault they are now on trial for the different crime of violating mr king s civil rights as for the city and county or state trying you more than once it most likely will not happen this is because cities and states have separate laws governing behaviour for example in some states it is an offence to carry marijuana but not a city offence also i think murder is against federal but not some state laws and my mind was filled with wonder when the evening headlines read richard cory went home last night and put a bullet through his head
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re th century capitalism in article mar jane uh edu mece d jane uh edu chris struble wrote christian struble writes some people are not very good at getting the best deal for their effort and others are unwilling to put forth much effort even in the face of economic incentives there will always be some people who are stupid or lazy relative to the ability or effort of most others the question is what do you do with them there are three options kill those who are not productive as a drain upon society this is the communist all who do not toil shall not eat lenin or fascist approach you re being too generous to the communists i think in practice communism has solved the problem by killing off anybody who is too productive and who therefore raises embarrassing questions about why the rest of the group is a bunch of sluggards the mass butchery of kulaks in the ussr is a good instance of this a poor second best is to have a neighboring capitalist country to which people of politically incorrect skill and ambition flee i often wonder just what castro would have done if the cubans presently in miami would have been forced to remain in cuba would they have revolted and killed him off or been killed best of all is to build a wall locking the citizens of your country in load it up so heavily with attack dogs barbed wire and land mines that most people fleeing over it die and then give everyone the choice of obedience prison or flight this would be a bad science fiction novel if the east germans hadn t actually done it the last person to die crossing the wall as i recall was an unarmed woman who was shot in the back erich honecker was going to go on trial for that but he fled to socialists in chile it s good to be kind to one s intellectual opponents but sometimes it s a sheer waste of time erich schwarz schwarze starbase caltech edu
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re top ten reasons not to aid russians in article c wj y encore com rcollins ns encore com roger collins writes i ask myself what law could we pass to prevent government from doing stupid frivilous things with our money then i think the constitution was supposed to do that could someone please tell me what legitimate constitutional power the federal government is using when it takes money from my paycheck and gives it to needy countries seriously roger collins since you asked article i section article i section article i section article ii section article vi sixteenth amendment with this as a guide try reading it yourself jsh steve hendricks domain steveh thor isc br com one thing about data it sure does cut uucp uunet isc br thor steveh the bulls t r hofferbert ma bell
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re hard times investments was no subject given in article pkvcl nu usenet ins cwru edu an cleveland freenet edu broward horne writes in a previous article riggs descartes etl army mil bill riggs says so much land and in the long run we have a zero sum game going someone somewhere is going to make a killing from nosediving real estate markets the worst thing to do is panic the best thing you can do is to ride out deflation to the end it hurts but you re better off than if you sell short and donate to someone else s inheritance sad paradigm shift is coming chum ride the wave i don t believe in the wave theory there s only so much land oh god is this mike zimmer s replacement my mother in law who grew up in germany doesn t believe in money at all she started out as a real estate developer and now raises horses she keeps telling me that inflation is coming back and to lock in my fixed rate mortgage as low as possible here let me spell it out for you can you spell two trillion dollar bank bailout maybe you d like to invest in some foreign currency which one would you guess to come out on top sigh speculators never learn bill r the only proposals in the senate that i my opinions do not represent have seen fit to mention are particularly those of my employer or praiseworthy or particularly scandalous ones any government agency it seems to me that the historian s foremost bill riggs duty is to ensure that virtue is remembered and to deter evil words and deeds with the fear of posterity s damnation tacitus annals iii
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losers was re stop putting down white het males in article apr galileo cc rochester edu as b uhura cc rochester edu tree of schnopia writes in apr jato jpl nasa gov michael neuron jpl nasa gov michael rivero writes i don t know what you as a white male did i do know what white males as a class have done they ve invented the light bulb the automobile the airplane printing with movable type photography computers the electric guitar anasthesia rocket powered space flight the computer electricity the telephone tv motion pictures penecillin sp telescopes nylon and the x ray machine two glaring errors here first white males don t do anything as a class individual white males invented those things which means nothing to white males as a whole second you neglected to mention charles manson hitler mccarthy jack the ripper ted bundy and a whole slew of individuals who have done horrible evil things if white males can take the credit for our fellow white males boons we must also take the blame for our fellows blights i claim we deserve neither credit nor blame for these things we are told by u s congresswoman barbara jordan that we are biologically incapable of compassion she s full of shit we are told by susan brownmiller that we re all rapists and that s all we are she s full of shit we re told by catherine comins that a false rape charge is actually good for us she s full of shit we are told by the feminist lawyers that we are not to be trusted with children they re full of shit we are told by newsweek magazine that we are poor sports if we complain newsweek is full of shit the point ladies and gents michael is not entirely correct in his theory that because members of our race and gender made great advances the race and gender as a whole deserve more respect than they receive white males do deserve to be treated better than they are being treated but not for that reason and the male bashers he quoted are repugnant hate mongers no better than the chauvinists they despise so no one s right as usual white males need to wake up and realize that they re being unfair yes but everyone else needs to wake up and realize that being unfair right back is disgusting racist and sexist why can t we learn to treat everyone fairly without generalizing what stupidity gene makes this so difficult i d like to buy the world a clue the word that is missing in this whole discourse is not the b word or the h word or even the n or w words it is the l word loser that s right when we boil all the crap out of this argument it is all about winning and losing and nothing else let me explain remember the eighties no excuses nobody who can handle a mail buffer can claim they are too young to remember ronald reagan yet the eighties were about how america learned to win once again then wouldn t you know we won so well that there was nothing left to win no cold war to endure no nuclear holocaust no more worlds to conquer we forgot about outer space long ago the kind of overwhelming no holds barred success that killed alexander the great yes there were a few little problems along the way stock market meltdown here an s l bailout there a few revolts and crazy middle eastern dictators to contend with but as tacitus would tell ya the god augustus never had it so good in the meantime there is guilt for winning maybe a fear that one doesn t deserve one s bounty or success so there is a kinder and gentler type of politician these days bill clinton affirmative action and lots of discourse about people who don t get it for those of us in the winning business this kind of talk is mildly irritating but there is still no suggestion of losing but what do we find now to put it mildy the stereotype of our white male non winner is woody hayes in the rose bowl punching out photojournalists when those california fruits and nuts steal another one with a hail mary pass in the fourth quarter the whole idea behind three yards and a cloud of dust is to wear your opponent down until he collapses in the final period but woody just used his fists uzzies seem to be the weapon of choice these days who is d fens anyway the answer is as plain as the horn rims on your face the guy is michael douglas posing as a loser this is known as controversial casting but that baggy short sleeved white shirt sure does look natural on mike doesn t it gordon gekko will never look the same though woody always dressed that way did we really expect gekko to take it easy and enjoy that kind of wardrobe without putting up a fuss what we are starting to lose sight of is that bashing d fens is the same game as bashing that poor african american slug that clint eastwood used to blow away all the time as that arch wasp male gender george c scott declaimed americans traditionally love to win they love a winner and will not tolerate a loser and so on the political implications are simple if as many socialists and democrats do you consider society a finite pie to a apportioned in some equitable way then you have to worry about who is a winner and who is a loser to tell whose side you are on that could be black women today asian homosexuals tommorrow and yes indeed white men some yet to be determined day when the balance of the pie has finally swung against that minority or you can just blow the whole thing off and say as do most conservatives and all the libertarians and act is if you didn t care who s winning and who s losing in some cases you might say something about make sure the game is fair equality of opportunity not of condition in the latter case you might be able to identify yourself as a neoconservative or a neoliberal depending on how much you want to limit the pot either way you go the way of the winner is no longer the way to be popular at least after you graduate from high school but you ll still be popular at high school reunions but it beats being a nerd as i would imagine michael douglas would now agree and in the long run it is the only way to go even in hollywood which treats losers worse than any other place in america except for new york and washington d c and even in columbus ohio which produced alex keaton but no champion football teams in the eighties and the first quarter of the nineties i d like to see more winners in this society regardless of race gender religious preference and sexual orientation maybe we should even let a few more of them be white men we should definitely let the buckeyes win the rose bowl someday bill r the only proposals in the senate that i my opinions do not represent have seen fit to mention are particularly those of my employer or praiseworthy or particularly scandalous ones any government agency it seems to me that the historian s foremost bill riggs duty is to ensure that virtue is remembered and to deter evil words and deeds with the fear of posterity s damnation tacitus annals iii
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re formal rebuttal to the presumption of jurisdiction in article apr midway uchicago edu thf kimbark uchicago edu ted frank writes you re not breathing clean air provided by government regulations if this doesn t beat all i ever heard the above certainly says a mouthful about the mindset of ted frank and also of statists everywhere the views expressed herein are theodore a kaldis my own only do you seriously kaldis remus rutgers edu believe that a major university rutgers remus rutgers edu kaldis as this would hold such views
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re reward in article apr oregon uoregon edu dreitman oregon uoregon edu daniel r reitman attorney to be writes in article apr colorado edu ajteel dendrite cs colorado edu a j teel writes no the definition of resident is very specific it is the same thing as alien look it up remember that the common usage of the words are not always their legal meaning this i gotta see some authority for from black s law dictionary revised th ed page residence a factual place of abode living in a particular locality reese v reese misc n y s d zimmerman or p d it requires only bodily presence as an inhabitant of a place in re campbell s guardianship minn n w d as domicile and residence are usually in the same place they are frequently used as if they had the same meaning but they are not identical terms for a person may have two places of residence as in the city and country but only one domicile residence means living in a particular locality but domicile means living in that locality with intent to make it a fixed and permanent home residence simply requires bodily presence as an inhabitant in a given place while domicile requires bodily presence in that place and also an intention to make it one s domicile in re riley s will n y s misc residence demands less intimate local ties than domicile but domicile allows absence for indefinite period if intent to return remains immigration act sec u s c a sec e p transatlantica italiana v elting c c a n y f d but see ward v ward w va s e southwestern greyhound lines v craig okl p d holding that residence and domicile are synonymous terms residence has a meaning dependent on context and purpose of statute in re jones pa a d words residence and domicile may have an identical or variable meaning depending on subject matter and context of statute kemp v kemp n y s d misc legal residence see legal resident one who has his residence in a place see residence also a tenant who was obliged to reside on his lord s land and not to depart from the same called also homme levant et couchant and in normandy resseant du fief ronald cole e mail zippy ecst csuchico edu senior software engineer phone optx international the bill of rights void where prohibited by law
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hate crimes laws in article apr news acns nwu edu dmeier casbah acns nwu edu douglas meier writes in article apr isc br isc br com steveh thor isc br com steve hendricks writes in article apr news acns nwu edu dmeier casbah acns nwu edu douglas meier writes if someone beats up a homosexual he should get charged for assault and battery why must we add gay bashing to the list isn t this a sort of double jeopardy or am i just being a fascist again to deter an epidemic of gay bashing that has not been deterred by assault laws so we ought to make beating up a homosexual more illegal than beating up a straight and who s advocating that hate crimes laws are aimed at the motivations of the acts just like premeditated homicide is treated stricter than heat of passion homicide no it is not double jeopardy a single act may lead to multiple charges and multiple crimes i think what you meant to say here was with the current mutation of the us constitution under the current police state someone may be charged multiple times for one act if the victim in question is of the right shade a single act should never merit more than on charge so if i set off a bomb in the world trade center i can only be charged with more than one murder and not the other five deaths and extensive property damage after all the bomb was a single act douglas c meier you can t play electro magnetic golf ted frank however teel should have mentioned that though thf kimbark uchicago edu his advice is legally sound if you follow it the u of c law school you will probably wind up in jail standard disclaimers james donald in misc legal
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e mail does anyone have the e mail address for the white house if so please send it to me thanks a lot
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re formal rebuttal to the presumption of jurisdiction in article apr cae prds cdx mot com dan cae prds cdx mot com dan breslau writes an amazing illustration of disconnection from reality glad to see that you agree that the current government is reticent about admitting the sovereignty of the people speaking from personal experience i have had judges illegally assume jurisdiction even after i demanded that the da prove such jurisdiction on the record and the da stood mute i have also had an appellate court uphold such action and hide behind california rules of court rule the judges of the appellate department shall not be required to write opinions in any cases decided by them but may do so whenever they deem it advisable or in the public interest that is reality i agree ronald cole e mail zippy ecst csuchico edu senior software engineer phone optx international the bill of rights void where prohibited by law
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re new funding plan for the military in article c zi d wetware com drieux wetware com drieux just drieux writes about the armed services ps maybe even privatize the organization or consider out sourcing various aspects of the dod as a part of the current down sizing who knows maybe if we finally allowed to free market to take control we will no longer have a military run by the same folks who are running the post office pps slow down and think before you flame rhetoric is an artform well uh actually i agree jeffrey s medkeff bitnet medkeffjs hiramb po box internet medkeffjs hiramb hiram edu hiram oh pale ebenezer thought it wrong to fight but u s a roaring bill who killed him thought it right
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re trickle down was was dan quayle genius garrett ingres com writes rn medtronic com robert nehls writes jason k schechner jks x holmes acc virginia edu wrote in article pf minnd c srvr engin umich edu jwh citi umich edu writes what decade did you live in unemployment dropped during the s inflation dropped during the s and interest rates dropped during the s this all may be true but we re paying for it now through the nose our current recession and some would argue the world s first off we re not in a recession we ve had a record number of months of straight economic growth even the democrats are admitting that the recession ofcicially ended in march of this months s unemployment rate in california was sure feels like a recession to me maybe we should ask the people who were laid off this january whether or not we re in a recession that was a figure that was reported in the new york times there is no official figure because the bureau of labor statistics stopped government tracking of layoffs eight months ago due to budget cuts the above information was published in harper s index harper s magazine eric smith the day dan quayle is our president is the day erics netcom com shelley winters runs with the bulls in pamplona erics infoserv com dennis miller ci
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re hate crimes laws in article apr midway uchicago edu thf midway uchicago edu writes in article apr news acns nwu edu dmeier casbah acns nwu edu douglas meier writes i think what you meant to say here was with the current mutation of the us constitution under the current police state someone may be charged multiple times for one act if the victim in question is of the right shade a single act should never merit more than on charge so if i set off a bomb in the world trade center i can only be charged with more than one murder and not the other five deaths and extensive property damage after all the bomb was a single act ted frank however teel should have mentioned that though again mr frank has come to the rescue with his cool headed reason how about one charge per victim of course i ll think about it in a few days and find a case where this doesn t apply either what the heck i don t study law i just hate lawyers douglas c meier you can t play electro magnetic golf northwestern university acns according to the rules of centrifugal this university is too commie bumblepuppy huxley brave new world lib pinko to have these views dmeier casbah acns nwu edu
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how many beibg spent at waco by batf hi wonder how much money is being spent at waco by batf are we paying because batf messed up and have made this a prestige issue girish girish kumthekar unix technical support e mail address s ugxk fnma com
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re why is tax evasion not considered unpatriotic in article c vy c t newsserver technet sg ipser solomon technet sg ed ipser writes in article mar pmafire inel gov cdm pmafire inel gov dale cook writes in article pasrg ife s gov lip s gov loren i petrich writes the title is self explanatory isaac asimov once pointed out that curious fact well since tax evasion is illegal one generally would not bother to consider whether it was unpatriotic or not how often does one think of murder as being unpatriotic perhaps a more appropriate question would be why is tax avoidance not considered unpatriotic the answer to this is simple tax avoidance is simply defined as paying the minimum tax you are legally obligated to pay there is a deeper reason taxes by their very nature are un american one need only look at the birth and history of the us to see this fact wasn t the beef with the english over taxation without representation not taxation itself from my admittedly dim recollection of us history most of the problems we americans have had with taxes have been with unfair unjust taxation schemes not with taxes themselves it s pretty hard to run a government without any means of support dale cook any town having more churches than bars has a serious social problem edward abbey the opinions are mine only i e they are not my employer s
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response fucking news reader i don t think this got posted if it did ignore it this time a response to korey begin my response in article plorlinnslt matt ksu ksu edu kkruse matt ksu ksu edu korey j kruse writes lamontg u washington edu writes well i just did a quick medline scan and came up with the following article by tashkin that reviews the literature i d probably start here document an a au tashkin d p in department of medicine university of california school of medicine los angeles ti pulmonary complications of smoked substance abuse rf review article refs why isn t this information in the faq on marijuana if we expect people to think we are telling them the truth about drugs why does this group constantly refute every negative thing about almost all drugs maybe because the claims deserve refute the above abstract lists various possible links to cannabis use unfiltered almost guaranteed and lung problems someone may get overly excited when they see that article but without actually digging up the study and seeing how the studies gathered their data it really doesn t tell you shit i m going to track down that study hopefully tomarrow i never claimed pot was more or less damageing than cigarettes i was just trying to keep ourselves honest if we are going to educate kids and adults and tell them the truth about drugs don t you think a much better approach would be to list the pro s and con s of each type of drug what justifies the truth about drugs research what sort of research correlational data can help establish a theory but it does not prove anything how can you expect someone to make a decision when the pdfa on one hand says that all drugs are absolutely bad bad bad and this newsgroup consistently refuses to admit that drugs like heroin even have negative side effects heroin is a relatively safe drug what makes it unsafe are iv administration and shit like adulterants there are side effects like withdrawal but they effect people differently i ve seen numerous posts claiming heroin has lower addiction rates that cigarettes which might be true but it is very deceiving because heroin is much more harmful drug to be addicted to than cigarettes heroin addicts are far more prone to end up in the gutter and destroy their family and friends than people addicted to just cigarettes stereotypical statement i know people who use heroin and opiates that function just fine in society this group does provide some very good information to people but i am worried that the pro legalization pro decriminalization movement is being hurt when it refuses to admit that any some drugs are very harmful name some of these drugs so we can debate about them more specifically i m all for legalization of most drugs but when someone asks me about relative risks of certain drugs or possible bad side effects i would like to know them and not be given the run around by this group which recently tried to tell me that pot was not harmful in any manner to people s lungs no no no or at least i haven t been arguing this there is not enough data to form a scientific conclusion that doesn t mean that cannabis is benign to users lungs we can form all the theories we want but they are only theories some theories are supported by more evidence than others and that makes them stronger i think it s time y all re examined your positions and try to understand that you cannot fight the pdfa by calling them a bunch of liars the hell i can t they state un justified conclusions as fact as a political strategy to stop drug use in general i somewhat see what you re saying and people like jack herer contribute to this this has been quite a big mind fuck for me recently and i ve pretty came to the conclusion that you can t trust anybody by word of mouth alone my attitude about the general population has decreased significantly gotta run to class marc andersom spot colorado edu kkruse ksuvm bitnet kkruse ksuvm ksu edu kkruse matt ksu edu
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re celebrate liberty this is as bad as the did you know japan bashing of weeks ago after finding this set of postings for the third time i hope no one shows up i don t know why fools insist on posting to every group it just agrevates people rod anderson n nzo the only acceptable substitute boulder co for brains is silence rcanders nyx cs du edu solomon short satellite n nzo on ao
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re public hearings on ballot access vote fraud and other issues hmmm intersting and long message but twice well i don t care for libertarianism but that is a philisophical disagreement not a tactical one reform of existing laws would be an awfully good idea you wouldn t believe some of the outrageous things the guardians of our two party system do to shut out dissent david matthew deane deane binah cc brandeis edu when the words fold open it means the death of doors even casement windows sense the danger amon liner
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re part re looks like clayton must retract in article ppi ginng elroy jpl nasa gov carlos beowulf jpl nasa gov carlos carrion writes does the greatly increased rates of incarceration amongst blacks show that they are dysfunctional or that the majority of them support criminal activity isn t this a matter of demographics doesn t this simply show that since criminal behaviour is common or apt to be common in the insert your favorite correct numbers here year old range and since the percentage of blacks in this range is higher than in other groups then it follows statistically that more blacks in prison is an expected result note that i haven t said anything about blacks being given stiffer or longer sentences than other groups i m sure this has to have an effect on the issue of over representation of blacks in prison blacks have the same crime report rate arrest rate and incarceration rate for violent crimes so i doubt that for violent crimes that there is any inherent bias mechanism present there is a wider discrepancy for all crimes for blacks wrt to categories interestingly enough the discrepancy is the largest in the southern united states where blacks are incarcerated well below the average in the rest of the united states which points to an anti bias against wrt blacks in any case for violent crimes and burglary and drug selling blacks are reported arrested and are present in jails prisons considering that of the population is black are black males and some percentage of that is out of the high low age groups we do have a situation where if i remember my old calculations right of the population commits almost half of the really nasty crimes blacks with similar histories crime to whites get the same sentences except in the south where they receive around less on paper there are actually people that still believe love canal was some kind of environmental disaster weird eh these opinions are mine and you can t have em but i ll rent em cheap
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re top ten reasons hillary and chealsea don t like men in uniform in article c vxvk bxr newsserver technet sg ipser solomon technet sg ed ipser wrote top ten reasons hillary and chealsea don t like men in uniform they keep saluting and stuff its embarassing copyright c edward a ipser jr ed before you ridicule the intelligence of other people learn to spell your typographical errors are indeed embarassing to those of us who read alt politics libertarian for its allegedly superior ideas and writing erich schwarz schwarze starbase caltech edu
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guilty or not guilty comparitive fault law thanks to everyone who sent replies regarding this case a few of them were very informative and helped very much once again thanks t c
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temper tantrums from the s in article apr cbnewsi cb att com gadfly cbnewsi cb att com gadfly writes now let me get this straight after a nice long rant about how people need to take personal responsibility for their economic and social lives all of a sudden s radicals such as me i guess are responsible for poor people s lifestyles tell me how that works or do you think that poor people are just too dumb to think for themselves there are many reasons for the disintegration of the family and support systems in general among this nation s poor somehow i don t think murphy brown or janis joplin is at the top of any sane person s list you want to go after my generation s vaunted cultural revolution for a lasting change for the worse try so called relevant or values education hey it seemed like a good idea at the time how were we to know you needed a real education first i mean we took that for granted the s generation were the most spoiled and irresponsible the depression had create mothers and fathers that were determined that their kids would not want for anything going overboard and creating a nation of brats consider the contrast between two famous events in july of apollo and woodstock which group had large numbers of people that could not feed themselves and reverted to the cultural level of primitives defecation in public etc and which group assembled took care of itself and dispersed with no damage no deaths no large numbers of drug problems there are actually people that still believe love canal was some kind of environmental disaster weird eh these opinions are mine and you can t have em but i ll rent em cheap
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re public hearings on ballot access vote fraud and other issues in article apr dsd es com bob waldrop f n z fidonet org bob waldrop writes announcing announcing announcing announcing public hearings on the compliance by the united states government and the governments of the states of florida louisiana arkansas missouri west virginia north carolina indiana maryland oklahoma nevada wyoming georgia and maine with certain international agreements signed by the united states government in particular the international covenant on civil and political rights signed october and the document of the copenhagen meeting of the conference on the human dimension of the conference on security and cooperation in europe june a democracy project of celebrate liberty the libertarian national convention and political expo sept salt palace convention center marriott hotel salt lake city utah these hearings will investigate charges that the governments referenced above routinely violate the political and democratic rights of political minority parties persons interested in testifying at these hearings or in submitting written or documentary evidence should contact bob waldrop p o box salt lake city ut bob waldrop f n z fidonet org examples of possible information of interest includes evidence and testimony regarding unfair or unequal treatment of political minorities physical assaults on volunteers candidates or members of minority parties arrests of minority party petitioners candidates or members while engaged in political activity structural barriers to organizing third parties and or running for office as anything other than a democrat or republican e g signature totals required for petitions to put new parties and candidates on ballots requirements for third parties that democrats and republicans are not required to meet etc taxpayer subsidies of democratic and republican candidates that are denied or not available to third parties fraudulent or non reporting of minority party vote totals e g stating totals for democratic and republican party candidates as equal to of the vote refusals by state legislatures governors and courts to hear petitions for redress of grievances from third parties and or unfavorable rulings laws discriminating against third parties refusal to allow registration as a member of a third party when registering to vote in states where partisan voter registration is optional or required vote fraud stuffing ballot boxes losing ballots fixing elections threatening candidates ballot printing errors machine voting irregularities dishonest corrupt election officials refusal to register third party voters or allow filing by third party candidates failure to print third party registration options on official voter registration documents intimidation of third party voters and or candidates and or any other criminal acts by local county state or federal election officials exclusion of third party candidates from debate forums sponsored by public schools state colleges and universities and governments including events carried on television and radio stations owned and or subsidized by governments any other information relevant to the topic information is solicited about incidents relating to all non democratic and non republican political parties such as libertarian new alliance socialist workers party natural law party taxpayers populist consumer green american communist etc as well as independent candidates such as john anderson ross perot eugene mccarthy barry commoner etc representatives of the governments referenced above will be invited to respond to any allegations relevant sections of the document of the copenhagen meeting referenced above the participating states recognize that pluralistic democracy and the rule of law are essential for ensuring respect for all human rights and fundamental freedoms they therefore welcome the commitment expressed by all participating states to the ideals of democracy and political pluralism the participating states express their conviction that full respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms and the development of societies based on pluralistic democracy are prerequisites for progress in setting up the lasting order of peace security justice and co operation they therefore reaffirm their commitment to implement fully all provisions of the final act and of the other csce documents relating to the human dimension in order to strengthen respect for and enjoyment of human rights and fundamental freedoms to develop human contacts and to resolve issues of a related humanitarian character the participating states agree on the following they consider that the rule of law does not mean merely a formal legality which assures regularity and consistency in the achievement and enforcement of democratic order but justice based on the recognition and full acceptance of the supreme value of the human personality and guaranteed by institutions providing a framework for its fullest expression they reaffirm that democracy is an inherent element of the rule of law they recognize the importance of pluralism with regard to political organizations they confirm that they will respect each other s right freely to choose and develop in accordance with international human rights standards their political social economic and cultural systems in exercising this right they will ensure that their laws regulations practices and policies conform with their obligations under international law and are brought into harmony with the provisions of the declaration on principles and other csce commitments they solemnly declare that among those elements of justice which are essential to the full expression of the inherent dignity and of the equal and inalienable rights of all human beings are the following a clear separation between the state and political parties in particular political parties will not be merged with the state to ensure that the will of the people serves as the basis of the authority of government the participating states will ensure that votes are counted and reported honestly with the official results made public respect the right of citizens to seek political or public office individually or as representatives of political parties or organizations without discrimination relevant sections of the international covenant of october referenced above the states parties to the present covenant recognizing that the ideal of free human beings enjoying civil and political freedom and freedom from fear and want can only be achieved if conditions are created whereby everyone may enjoy his civil and political rights as well as his economic social and cultural rights considering the obligation of states under the charter of the united nations to promote universal respect for and observance of human rights and freedoms agree upon the following articles article each state party to the present covenant undertakes to respect and to ensure to all individuals within its territory and subject to its jurisdiction the rights recognized in the present covenant without distinction of any kind such as race colour sex language religion political or other opinion national or social origin property birth or other status where not already provided for by existing legislative or other measures each state party to the present covenant undertakes to take the necessary steps in accordance with its constitutional processes and with the provisions of the present covenant to adopt such legislative or other measures as may be necessary to give effect to the rights recognized in the present covenant article the states parties to the present covenant undertake to ensure the equal right of men and women to the enjoyment of all civil and political rights set forth in the present covenant article every citizen shall have the right and the opportunity without any of the distinctions mentioned in article and without unreasonable restrictions a to take part in the conduct of public affairs directly or through freely chosen representatives b to vote and to be elected at genuine periodic elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret ballot guaranteeing the free expression of the will of the electors c to have access on general terms of equality to public service in his country article all persons are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to the equal protection of the law in this respect the law shall prohibit any discrimination and guarantee to all persons equal and effective protection against discrimination on any ground such as race colour sex language religion political or other opinion national or social origin property birth or other status there will be no peace without freedom think globally act locally resist much obey little question authority comments from bob waldrop are the responsibility of bob waldrop for a good time call e mail bob waldrop f n z fidonet org snail mail p o box salt lake city utah united states of america voice phone don t blame me i voted libertarian disclaimer i speak for myself except as noted copyright rich thomson uucp uunet dsd es com rthomson rich thomson internet rthomson dsd es com irc rich pext programmer david matthew deane deane binah cc brandeis edu when the words fold open it means the death of doors even casement windows sense the danger amon liner
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re public hearings on ballot access vote fraud and other issues ack sorry for the repeat posts i thought i was posting to the newsgroup on which this appeared couldn t figure out why it wasn t appearing in my newsgroup stupid of me slap my hands bang my head against the wall sorry bloody public anouncements mumble mumble mumble david matthew deane deane binah cc brandeis edu when the words fold open it means the death of doors even casement windows sense the danger amon liner
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re public hearings on ballot access vote fraud and other issues well the message was interesting and long but twice oh well personally i loathe libertarianism but my disagreement is philisophical not tactical election law reform is a good idea you would not believe what kind of stunts the creatures of the party system are capable of pulling david matthew deane deane binah cc brandeis edu when the words fold open it means the death of doors even casement windows sense the danger amon liner
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re motor voter in article apr romulus rutgers edu kaldis romulus rutgers edu theodore a kaldis wrote when i entered st grade eisenhower was president and john f kennedy was just a relatively obscure senator from new england so how old do you think i am now ask me whether i m surprised that you haven t managed to waddle out of college after all this time lefty lefty apple com c m c d o d
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government mandated energy conservation is unnecessary and wastful study finds government mandated energy conservation is unnecessary and wastful study finds washington dc the energy tax and subsidized energy efficiency measures supported by president clinton and energy secretary hazel o leary are based on faulty assumptions a new study from the cato institute points out according to jerry taylor cato s director of natural resource studies we are not running out of sources of energy the world now has almost times the proven oil reserves it had in and twice the reserves of proven reserves of coal and natural gas have increased just as dramatically when standards of living population densities and industrial structures are controlled for the united states is no less energy efficient than japan and more energy efficient than many of the group of seven nations energy independence provides little protection against domestic oil price shocks because the energy economy is global moreover since the cost of oil represents only about percent of gross national product even large increases in the price of oil would have little impact on the overall u s economy market economies are on average times more energy efficient per of gnp than are centrally planned economies utilities subsidized energy efficiency measurs known as demand side management programs encourage free riders overuse of competing resource inputs an competitive inequities furthermore dsm programs do not reduce demand taylor concludes that government mandated energy conservation imposes unnecessary costs on consumers and wastes not conserves energy that subsidizing energy conservation technologies will stymie not advance gains in energy conservation and that central control over the lifeblood of modern society energy would transfer tremendous power to the state at the expense of the individual energy conservation and efficiency the case against coercion is no in the policy analysis series published by the cato institute an independent public policy research organization in washington dc available from cato institute second street se washington dc the cato institute founded in the cato institute is a public policy research foundation dedicated to broadening the parameters of policy debate to allow consideration of more options that are consistent with the traditional american principles of limited government individual liberty and peace to that end the institute strives to achieve greater involvement of the intelligent concerned lay public in questions of policy and the proper role of government the institute is named for cato s letters libertarian pamphlets that were widely read in the american colonies in the early th century and played a major role in laying the philosophical foundation of the american revolution despite the achievement of the nation s founders today virtually no aspect of life is free from government encroachment a pervasive intolerance for individual rights is shown by government s arbitrary intrusions into private economic transactions and its disregard for civil liberties to counter that trend the cato institute undertakes an extensive publications program that addresses the complete spectrum of policy issues books monographs and shorter studies are commissioned to examine the federal budget social security regulation military spending international trade and myriad other issues major policy conferences are held throughout the year from which papers are published thrice yearly in the cato journal in order to maintain its independence the cato institute accepts no government funding contributions are received from foundations corporations and individuals and other revenue is generated from the sale of publications the institute is a nonprofit tax exempt educational foundation under section c of the internal revenue code the cato institute second street s e washington dc
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secret purpose of falklands war secret purpose of falklands war with in visibility technology dr beter audio letter of digitized by jon volkoff mail address eidetics cerf net audio letter r is a registered trademark of audio books inc a texas corporation which originally produced this tape recording reproduced under open license granted by audio books inc this is the dr beter audio letter r k st nw washington dc hello my friends this is dr beter today is april and this is my audio letter r no it s now been almost one month since war broke out in the south atlantic on the surface it seems that it s only a dispute between argentina and great britain over the barren wind swept falkland islands and south georgia island in reality it s far more than that the so called falklands crisis is just the visible tip of a giant military operation during this month of april fierce naval battles have taken place not only in the south atlantic but also in the south pacific up to now most of the hostilities have been kept under wraps by wartime censorship on all sides but as i say these words the naval war in the southern hemisphere is about to come to the surface beginning today april a total naval and air blockade of the falklands by the royal navy has begun at the same time a counterblockade has been declared by argentina in the same area to be effective a blockade must be imposed over a period of time but the royal navy does not have that much time winter is coming on in the south atlantic and the british supply lines are overextended having come this far her majesty s navy cannot simply drop the blockade and sail away in a few weeks time without drawing blood from argentina as a result the british will be forced to undertake military operations very soon no matter how risky they may be there is also another reason why the royal navy now has no choice but to engage the argentine forces in combat that reason my friends is that the royal navy has already suffered losses in secret combat this month up to this moment there will be no way to explain away the damage which has been sustained by the british fleet only when publicly admitted fighting erupts will the british dare to admit that they have suffered battle losses to obtain that cover story the british have no choice but to sail into combat but in doing so they will be risking even heavier losses on top of those already sustained in short my friends her majesty s navy has sailed into a trap the events now unfolding in the south atlantic carry strange ironic echoes of the past for weeks now we ve been hearing countless commentators referring to the british task force as an armada quote the british of all people ought to be very uneasy with that description the original spanish armada years ago was renowned as a seemingly invincible fighting force but it came to grief in a naval disaster so complete that it changed the course of history and it was none other than the english navy that destroyed the spanish armada the original spanish armada put to sea in during the reign of england s queen elizabeth i the armada was an invasion fleet carrying thousands of crack fighting men to invade england they were met by the daring sea dogs of sir francis drake drake and his small fast ships turned the tables on the spanish armada by changing the rules of battle the english fleet was equipped with new longer range guns and it stayed upwind and out of reach from there the english pounded smashed and shattered the big ships of the mighty armada when it was all over barely half the spanish fleet was left to limp back to port drake s defeat of the spanish armada was a shock to the world it opened the door for england under queen elizabeth i to start its expansion into a truly global empire today years later history seems to have come full circle queen elizabeth ii is witnessing the dismantling of the world empire whose heyday began under queen elizabeth i and now the cultures of england and of spain are once again in confrontation once again a so called armada is preparing for invasion but this time the armada is british not spanish four hundred years ago sir francis drake was the hero of the day today the ghost of francis drake is once again on the scene the south atlantic war zone is at the eastern end of the drake passage around the southern tip of south america the defeat of the spanish armada four centuries ago broke the back of spain s naval supremacy and now the defeat of the new british armada may well break the back of what remains of the once glorious royal navy my three special topics for this audio letter are topic the military secret of south georgia island topic the secret naval war of the southern hemisphere topic the rockefeller fear campaign against nuclear war topic when the falkland islands crisis began early this month it looked at first like a tempest in a teapot for a century and a half since the islands have been controlled by great britain during that entire time british sovereignty over the falklands has been disputed by argentina there have been countless threats by argentina to seize the islands which it calls the malvinas but the threats have always come to nothing in the past and britain has never even gotten very worried about them the islands are four times as distant from argentina as cuba is from the united states and they are not much of a prize after years of occupancy the falklands are home to fewer than british settlers and a lot of sheep in short the remote falkland islands hardly look like something to fight over and yet here we are watching another crisis take place we are watching as war erupts between great britain and argentina the thatcher government is acting as if it has forgotten all about its usual preoccupation with the soviet threat at nato s doorstep instead britain is throwing almost everything it s got at argentina aircraft carriers cruisers destroyers submarines assault ships you name it luxury cruise ships have even been commissioned and turned into troop carriers overnight wave after wave of additional assault troops have been activated and sent to join the fleet even after it sailed ships and submarines have been pulled off station from normal nato duty and sent to reinforce the task force the initial ship force has grown steadily over the past several weeks into an armada numbering over over two thirds of the entire royal navy has already been deployed to the south atlantic off argentina watching all this a lot of people are asking what s this fight really all about the most popular answer suggested in the major media is oil vast deposits of oil are known to exist under the continental shelf between argentina and the falklands but that has been known for nearly years in no way does it explain the timing of the sudden military offensive by argentina this month and oil explains even less about the argentine seizure of south georgia island south georgia island is miles east of the falklands with no known oil deposits anywhere near it and compared to south georgia the falklands are an island paradise south georgia island is covered with rugged mountains treacherous valleys glaciers and semi permanent snow most of it is uninhabitable on top of all that argentina has absolutely no legal or historical claim to south georgia island in that respect it stands in sharp contrast to the falklands in the early s the falklands were occupied for a while by argentine colonists in the british expelled them and took over the island for that and other historical reasons argentina argues that the falklands really belong to argentina not britain but no such argument is possible for south georgia island it has always been controlled by britain never by argentina or spain the argentine seizure of south georgia island looks even more unreasonable from a military point of view argentina s leaders are military men and they think in military terms they were well aware ahead of time that far off south georgia island could not possibly be held for long by seizing it they were setting themselves up to absorb a military defeat as the island was retaken by britain so the question is why did argentina s military junta bother with the seemingly worthless south georgia island at all my friends the answers to all these questions are military not political or economic south georgia island possesses an enormous military secret it s a giant underground installation buried under the mountains at the northwest end of the island the real reason for the so called falkland crisis is this secret installation together with two other similar installations which i will describe shortly the secret military complexes have been in existence for many years they are not new what is new is the accelerated nuclear war timetable of the american bolshevik war planners here in washington for the past two months i ve been reporting the details of this new war plan to you as quickly as i can obtain and verify them the plan calls for nuclear war one to erupt by september of this year it is this fast approaching nuclear war threat that caused the so called falklands crisis to erupt now what is going on now is a coordinated effort to spoil part of the bolshevik grand strategy for the coming nuclear war the mutual enemies of the american bolsheviks here namely the rockefeller cartel and russia s new rulers in the kremlin are behind the present crisis they are trying to ruin phase of the project z war plan which i revealed last month that phase is to be world domination by the american bolsheviks after both russia and the united states have been destroyed in nuclear war one as i mentioned last month the key to this plan is the existence of secret weapons stockpiles in various places around the world the american bolshevik military planners here in america are working with other bolshevik agents in key military positions of other countries to set off war having done that they intend to ride out the nuclear holocaust they have caused safe and cozy in government war bunkers when the warring nations finally lie smoldering and exhausted the bolsheviks will leave the shattered remains of their host countries they will rendezvous at the secret weapons installations and bring their weapons into the open they will confront the world with the only remaining fresh up to date powerful military force on earth and using that military power they will become the undisputed rulers of the world that is they plan to do all this and they plan to pave the way for world domination very soon by setting off nuclear war one in a matter of months the rockefeller cartel and russia s new anti bolshevik rulers are working together in a race against time to try to head off the bolshevik war plan last month i mentioned that the bolsheviks here are benefitting from war preparations which were started by the rockefellers long ago it has only been about three years since the rockefellers were dislodged as the prime movers of the united states government by the bolsheviks since that time the united states government has been a house divided torn by internal power struggles between rival bolshevik and rockefeller factions but before that the united states had been dominated for decades both economically and politically by the four rockefeller brothers in the brothers launched a new long range plan for world domination it was a two prong strategy half visible and half secret which i first described long ago in audio letter no it was a plan for the united states to arm to the teeth in secret while appearing to disarm gradually without repeating all the details the basic idea was grandiose yet simple by deliberately appearing weak the rockefeller controlled united states would maneuver itself into a nuclear war with russia then the secret weapons including superweapons would be unleashed to smash russia and take over the world when they set the grand plan in motion in the rockefeller brothers were looking ahead to a nuclear war by the late s their military analysts concluded very early that the war being planned would have very different effects on the northern and southern hemispheres both superpowers the united states and the soviet union are located well up in the northern hemisphere so are the other full fledged nuclear powers great britain france red china and india by contrast the strategic targets for nuclear war in the southern hemisphere are relatively few and far between in other words it was expected that the coming nuclear war would be essentially a northern hemisphere war in an all out nuclear holocaust it is known that serious radioactive fallout will gradually spread to affect even areas not initially hit by war but there are limits to how far the war clouds can spread it was discovered long ago that there is very little mixing between the air of the northern and southern hemispheres in the northern half of our planet cold air from the north pole works its way southward towards the equator then it works its way back to the north as warm air a mirror image of this process takes up the southern half of the planet northern and southern hemisphere air meet in the equatorial zone but very little of the air changes places the military conclusion my friends is this the coming nuclear war could ruin large areas of the northern hemisphere for generations to come but if the calculations are right the southern hemisphere could escape virtually unaffected by the war this was music to the ears of the four rockefeller brothers a quick look at the globe of the world shows why the rockefeller cartel has dominated latin america ever since world war ii as i discussed in my very first monthly audio letter nelson rockefeller solidified the cartel grip on latin america during the war he accomplished this as so called coordinator of hemispheric defense for then president franklin d roosevelt so that takes care of the south american continent and its natural resources then there is the african continent there too rockefeller control was already in effect over wide areas of black africa especially south of the equator all this was thanks to the efforts of john d rockefeller iii as i detailed in audio letter no looking around the globe the most important remaining land masses from the standpoint of world domination are australia and new zealand thanks to world war ii both were wide open to the rockefellers the rockefeller brothers decided to establish secret military installations in the southern hemisphere for use after the coming war by this means they expected to become the masters of the surviving southern half of planet earth after the northern hemisphere war then as the northern hemisphere gradually recovered from the nuclear holocaust the rockefeller empire would be able to pick up the pieces in this way the third generation rockefeller brothers expected their family dynasty to inherit the earth in order to control the southern hemisphere militarily after the war some means would have to be available to project military power onto any land mass for example revolts against rockefeller domination would require troops not a blast from the beam weapons on the moon the most critical factor for postwar military domination of the world was found to be a navy a minimum of two secret naval fleets would be required one based in the south atlantic the other in the south pacific since the reserve naval fleets were to be kept secret until after the northern hemisphere nuclear war they could not be built in existing shipyards new construction facilities had to be built and they had to be hidden to hide an entire shipyard is no small task they take up a lot of space on top of that it was essential that the ships remain hidden after they were built the best way to achieve that was to combine the shipyard and naval base into one over all secret installation finally the secret naval installation had to be invulnerable to nuclear attack otherwise if its existence were ever discovered prematurely the secret navy might be wiped out the combined requirements for secrecy space and protection against attack were formidable but one day in while all these plans were still in the early stages of development the answer presented itself during a so called banking trip to sweden david rockefeller was given a tour of a unique hidden naval port the port is hollowed out from solid granite cliffs which come right down to the water the entrance to the port is a gigantic hole in the side of the cliff which can be sealed off with enormous steel doors inside this big doorway on the water a huge cavity has been hollowed out to accommodate ships the rockefeller brothers and their military adviser decided that a bigger more secret better protected version of the swedish hidden port was just what they wanted a survey of candidate sites was then initiated the site survey covered coastal areas throughout the southern hemisphere many areas were rejected very quickly because the topography was wrong other areas were rejected because they were too close to the equator still others had to be ruled out because there were too many people living nearby making the desired level of secrecy impossible finally it was essential that the sites chosen for the secret naval installations be totally secure politically at last the sites for the secret naval installations were selected in the south pacific extreme southern new zealand was selected this is what i was alluding to in audio letter no three months ago when i called attention to new zealand s extreme importance in the coming war in order to obtain the necessary space the secret new zealand naval installation had to be divided up into two sites located close together one is at the extreme southwest tip of south island where the mountain range known as the southern alps comes down virtually to the water s edge the other part of the installation is built into the northwest tip of stewart island which is off the tip of south island the stewart island facility is hollowed out within a rise known as mt anglem the new zealand location met all the requirements ever since world war ii the government of new zealand has been tied even closer to the united states than to great britain the location is far from the equator and the installations are buried deep under mountains protected from nuclear attack they are also too deep to be reached by particle beam attacks and the new zealand site is well situated to command the entire south pacific in the south atlantic an even more perfect site was found that site my friends is south georgia island it is located perfectly for naval domination of the entire south atlantic the tall rugged mountains provided a perfect location for the secret installation at the northwest tip of the mile long island it is controlled by great britain whose government like that of new zealand was willing to cooperate and south georgia island was virtually uninhabited except for a whaling station on the northeast coast the whaling station was some miles away from the secret new installation which was being built but britain took no chances in the whaling station was closed down since that time there have been no inhabitants on south georgia island except for a few dozen alleged antarctic scientists construction of the secret naval facilities two in new zealand one on south georgia island began in the early s the techniques were adapted from those used previously to build other large underground facilities such as the norad installation inside cheyenne mountain colorado however these techniques were adapted in radically new ways to achieve construction access directly from the sea instead of overland in this way the sheltering mountain was left undisturbed in appearance both during and after construction the cuts in the mountain side which were necessary to let ships in and out were kept as small as possible and were well camouflaged like the swedish hidden naval port arrangement the entrances to the secret installations can be sealed up when sealed the entrance is virtually impossible to detect unless you know exactly where it is and unlike most large construction projects there are no tailings or piles of leftover rock lying around to attract attention the man made caverns which house the secret naval installations are enormous but all the rock and debris was disposed of at sea once the secret naval facilities were built they had to be outfitted for ship construction and docksite storage the fake disarmament of the united states during the s contributed greatly to this task from to one man played a pivotal role in this elaborate rockefeller scheme he was then secretary of defense robert mcnamara all through the s mcnamara presided over the public paring back of america s visible military power this included the closing down and dismantling of entire shipyards what we were not told was where all that shipyard equipment went afterwards where it went my friends was to the new secret installations which were being outfitted in new zealand and south georgia island the secret naval installations have been used as duplication facilities to reproduce certain ships and submarines designed and built here in the united states as defense secretary caspar weinberger told congress recently it is cheaper to build two ships at a time that is especially true if the second ship is an exact duplicate of the first this has become even more true in recent years through the use of computerized manufacturing techniques the secret naval fleets which have been built at the secret installations are made up of duplicates exact duplicates of certain other ships and submarines they are all nuclear powered nuclear subs nuclear cruisers nuclear destroyers and yes nuclear aircraft carriers three of them a secret twin was built for the u s s nimitz for the u s s eisenhower and for the newly launched u s s carl vincent all have been financed through the gigantic cost overruns so called that we constantly hear about in the defense department and all three carriers have been provided with a full complement of aircraft whose manufacture was financed the same way the ships of the secret american bolshevik naval fleets are all duplicates of other nuclear powered vessels even so the secret naval ships possess one key difference last month i revealed that the so called stealth program has succeeded in developing a kind of electromagnetic invisibility shield this technique makes an object invisible from a distance by distorting light waves in its vicinity a whole new fleet of phantom war planes are now going into crash production that use this principle and my friends all of the secret american bolshevik navy ships have already been outfitted with similar stealth field equipment the stealth principle is actually easier to apply to ships than to airplanes because there is more room for the powerful equipment that generates the field after nuclear war one the secret stealth navy of the american bolsheviks would be light years ahead of any other navy left on earth it would be perfect for the intended role of world domination the rockefellers set it all in motion long ago my friends but three years ago they lost control of the united states military now it s the american bolsheviks who are in control and they are bent on war these secret naval installations have precipitated what is being called the falklands crisis topic in audio letter r no last month i described project z the new bolshevik three phase strategy for nuclear war one an elite group of american bolshevik military planners here are flushing out the plan right now at a secret war room here in washington it s a plan by which the united states will strike the first nuclear blow followed by all out thermonuclear war with russia having set off the holocaust the bolsheviks here and in certain other countries plan to rise it out safe in comfortable war bunkers finally after nuclear war one fizzles out in stalemate they plan to leave behind the ashes of the united states and her allies activating phase of their grand strategy they plan to unveil their secret weapons especially their secret naval fleets with these they plan to conquer and rule what is left of the world the united states as we know it will be dead and gone but in the eyes of the bolsheviks themselves this outcome will constitute victory up to now the nuclear war timetable which i first revealed two months ago is still on track they are still shooting for nuclear war to begin by september of this year time is fast running out the bolsheviks here are sprinting as fast as they can toward war but my friends the bolsheviks are not the only runners in this race they have two deadly enemies both of whom are equally determined to trip up the bolsheviks one enemy of the bolsheviks here is the rockefeller cartel the other enemy is the new anti bolshevik ruling clique in russia and now these two mutual enemies of the bolsheviks are pooling their efforts in certain ways in audio letter no three months ago i reported that a limited new anti bolshevik coalition was in the works between the rockefeller cartel and the russians the january meeting between haig and gromyko in geneva switzerland was a turning point in the formation of this coalition it is now a reality and is responsible for the so called falkland crisis now dominating the headlines it should be emphasized that this new relationship between the rockefeller cartel and russia falls far short of a true alliance they have very major disputes to be settled between them but for the time being they have called a truce between themselves to deal with their mutual deadly enemy the bolsheviks here in america the first priority of the russians and the rockefellers is to slow down the bolshevik preparations for imminent nuclear war if they can do that time is on the side of the rockefeller cartel in certain political movements which i discussed last summer in audio letter no a slow down in the nuclear war timetable will also give more breathing space for additional anti bolshevik actions to be implemented the joint rockefeller russian planners decided by mid february that military action against the bolsheviks was essential very quickly no other type of action had any hope of taking effect fast enough to prevent nuclear war by the end of this summer the exact details of the project z war plan are not known to either the rockefellers or the russians but the general outlines are known to be as i described last month it was decided that military action should be devised that would undermine phase of the bolshevik war plan that is the bolshevik controlled secret naval installations and fleets in the southern hemisphere should be attacked and crippled by working together the rockefeller cartel and the russians were able to devise an attack plan which neither could have carried out alone the rockefeller group who built and originally controlled these bases provided detailed intelligence about the best way to attack them the russians with their enormous military machine provided the muscle to actually carry out the attack it was essential to devise a scheme that would enable both secret fleets in the south atlantic and south pacific to be attacked survival intact of either fleet would leave the bolshevik war plan still workable military analysts concluded very quickly that a direct assault on the new zealand facilities was out of the question there was no combination of commandos frogmen or other military force which could possibly keep an attack secret from the outside world any attack on the new zealand bases would set off the very war which the rockefellers and russians want to prevent but the situation in the south atlantic was a different matter in a way the greatest asset of south georgia island was also its achilles heel the extreme isolation which protected the secrecy of the south georgia base also made a covert military assault feasible the key lay with argentina and her long standing claims to the falkland islands as i mentioned in topic the rockefeller cartel has dominated all of latin america for decades cartel operatives were sent to argentina to work out a deal with the government military junta there the historic dispute over the falkland islands was to be used to provide a ruse a military cover to enable the south georgia base to be attacked the argentine generals were not told everything about the situation by any means but they were told enough to make clear what they were to do as an inducement to cooperate the argentine leaders were promised handsome rewards they were guaranteed that after the shooting was over the falkland islands would remain in argentine hands this guarantee included the promise of covert military assistance as needed against the royal navy and to bolster the troubled argentine economy it was promised that the rockefeller cartel will help develop the immense offshore oil reserves with these combined promises of military glory and financial rewards the argentine military junta agreed to the plan on march argentina carried out act in the joint attack plan a group of argentine scrap metal merchants of all things landed at the abandoned old whaling station on south georgia island supposedly they were there to dismantle the old buildings and cart them off to sell while they were at it they also raised the argentine flag over the work site the british always nervous about south georgia island promptly reacted as expected the british antarctic survey ship endurance put marines ashore they drove off the scrap merchants and tore down the argentine flag the incident provided the desired excuse for the argentine junta to bring the simmering year old falklands dispute to a boil from time to time in the past argentina has claimed that south georgia is part of the falklands because it is administered that way by britain that argument is very flimsy but it now came in very handy it was nothing new to hear this from argentine leaders so there was no hint of what was really afoot during late march argentine military forces started assembling for an assault on the falklands nothing new thought the british high command argentina has carried out threatening maneuvers in the past many times it was believed that they were about to do it again but on april argentine forces did the unexpected after many past false alarms this time they actually invaded and seized the islands all argentine public statements emphasized the long standing historical claims to the falklands themselves but just for good measure the next day a small argentine force also seized far off south georgia island the force was so small that it gave the appearance initially that it was just a side show from argentina s point of view however the small contingent of royal marines were overpowered and bundled off the island along with a group of alleged scientists that was the moment of payoff in the joint rockefeller russian attack plan thanks to the elaborate distraction staged by the argentine forces a special commando team got onto the island undetected based on the detailed rockefeller information about the base the team moved to a location on the mountain directly above the cavernous secret base special high speed drilling equipment was set up by the rockefeller members of the team while the russian members concentrated on military defense by late that evening april the military high command in london finally learned what was really taking place the secret south georgia base was under attack by virtually the only means possible the joint rockefeller russian team were drilling a shaft down through the mountain toward the hollowed out cavern inside it was only a matter of time until their drill would break through the ceiling of the giant hidden naval base once the hole was made the next step was obvious the rockefeller russian team would put a weapon of some kind through the hole the best guess was that it would be a nerve gas the shock waves that went through the highest levels of the british government on the evening of april can hardly be described my friends the thatcher government like the so called reagan administration here in america is bolshevik controlled that s why margaret thatcher always says me too any time the reagan administration says or does anything against russia both governments are party to the secret nuclear war plan in complete betrayal of the people of their respective countries and on the evening of april they suddenly discovered that their precious war plan was in deep deep trouble immediately the thatcher government started assembling a naval armada to sail for the south atlantic haste was the order of the day the drilling on south georgia island was proceeding around the clock the best estimates were that the drilling would break through into the roof of the naval base in about three weeks on or about april if help did not reach south georgia by then the secret installation might be doomed the forces stationed at the installation itself were unable to defend themselves under the circumstances their mighty naval ships were ships in a bottle they did not dare open the bottle to sail out to fight because the russian commandos were armed with tactical and nuclear weapons to open the blast proof entrance doors would be suicide on april just two days after south georgia island was seized some naval ships began moving out of british ports the same day lord carrington was sacked as foreign minister he was forced to resign my friends because he had assisted the rockefeller attack plan by downplaying the argentine attack preparations that same day april new zealand the home of the other secret naval fleet broke diplomatic relations with argentina the two hidden new zealand facilities had been placed on red alert as a precautionary measure all submarines at the twin base were ordered to sea several surface ships were already at sea undergoing sea trials but that still left seven major ships inside the hidden twin naval base including one of the nuclear aircraft carriers i mentioned earlier on that busy day of april argentina s foreign minister costa mendez was at the united nations in new york he was alarmed by the deployment of such a large part of the royal navy costa mendez hurried here to washington to seek reassurances from certain officials he got them for the next two weeks or so the news was filled with stories about the allegedly slow movement of the british fleet while negotiations went on that my friends was only a cover story the royal navy was actually joining up and moving as rapidly as possible toward south georgia island if the task force arrived in time to save the secret base a major battle was likely the official stories about slow movement of the british armada were intended to give a cushion of time for that battle if need be the fleet would have several days to retake south georgia island then it could move on to arrive near the falklands on the announced schedule in this way the crucial importance of south georgia island would be hidden and the big secret preserved it was initially expected that advance elements of the british fleet would reach the vicinity of south georgia island within two weeks that would have been soon enough to attack the joint rockefeller russian commando team and stop the drilling before it was completed but russian cosmospheres and submarines made a shambles of the plan key advance elements of the south georgia attack contingent left ascension island early april two days before it was announced officially shortly after they did so they ran into trouble russian cosmospheres and attack submarines closed in on a single ship which was critical to the planned counterassault on south georgia island the cosmospheres bombarded the bridge and combat information center of the ship with neutron radiation in moments the ship was without any command its communications and radar silenced then a russian sub closed in and quickly finished off this key british ship with torpedoes it broke apart with secondary explosions and sank rapidly so far as is known there were no survivors this unexpected shock in the mid atlantic produced two results both important first it caused a slowdown in the race toward the south atlantic by the british armada the task force had to be regrouped into a configuration better suited for an enroute defense but that cost valuable time public announcements from london about the progress of the fleet reflected this slowdown the timetable for arrival on battle stations near the falklands started stretching out longer and longer all this bought extra time for the joint commando team on south georgia island the drilling continued the other result of the sinking was equally important word was flashed to the south pacific stealth navy to prepare for possible action it was obvious that the russian navy was getting involved in the atlantic which meant that the royal navy could be in big trouble during the dead of night early april the seven stealth ships put to sea from their twin secret bases in southern new zealand they deployed to a secret operational headquarters area in the antipodes islands miles southeast of new zealand their electromagnetic shields were operating to provide protection from attack these shields make it impossible to communicate with the outside world or even to see it as i explained last month but once they arrived at the antipodes the stealth ships hooked up to buoys equipped with shielded communication cables to the island headquarters the antipodes headquarters in turn was in constant touch with the south georgia base by way of a transoceanic cable around the tip of south america the deployment of the available ships of the south pacific stealth fleet was exactly what the joint rockefeller russian planners had hoped for the ships had been flushed out from their essentially invulnerable hiding place in new zealand the british ship s sinking of april was also followed by other events on april the argentine navy started moving out of port the same day alexander haig arrived again in buenos aires supposedly he was there as a diplomat but in reality he was there as a general dealing with generals haig is the top governmental operative of the rockefeller cartel as i have revealed in the past he was making sure that the argentines did not get cold feet and back down at that critical moment four days later april haig left for washington as he boarded his plane haig somberly told reporters time is running out and so it was my friends for the secret south georgia base the very next day april the drill broke through into the hollowed out cavern of the naval base bolshevik military analysts in london had not expected that it could be completed until at least the following weekend the british fleet was still out of range the weapon which the commando team inserted down through the long hole was a small compact russian neutron bomb when it was detonated inside the confines of the huge artificial cave the effects were devastating the intense radiation instantly killed everyone inside the base also the heat and blast effects of the bomb are believed to have damaged all the ships inside sufficiently to badly disable them meanwhile russian cosmospheres and submarines were converging on the stealth ships which were near the antipodes islands awaiting orders from a distance the ships were invisible to the eye due to their protective shields which also protect against beam weapon attack but they were sitting ducks for the tactics which the russians employed floating overhead the cosmospheres located the seven ships using their psychoenergetic range finding equipment known as prf as i have reported in the past there is no method known by which prf can be jammed the cosmospheres radioed the exact locations of the ships to the attack submarines the subs were armed with special non homing non nuclear torpedoes designed to explode on impact more sophisticated torpedoes would have been thrown off course or detonated prematurely by the protective shield of each ship but these simple torpedoes just cruise right through each invisibility field to strike the ship and explode within minutes after the attack began all seven bolshevik stealth ships were on their way to the bottom and with them went their bolshevik commanders and mercenary crews collected from around the world the south pacific action took place just after sunset local time the time here in washington was around p m april that evening secretary of state haig was seen briefly in public with the new british foreign minister francis pym pym was wearing the artificial pseudo smile which diplomats are taught always to display in public but not haig haig was grinning from ear to ear and no wonder the joint rockefeller russian military operation had been a brilliant success the secret bolshevik south atlantic fleet had been virtually wiped out bottled up inside south georgia island and the south pacific fleet while not totally wiped out had been badly crippled by working together the rockefeller cartel and the russians had won the secret naval war of the southern hemisphere topic as i say these words news reports give the impression that war is about to erupt in the south atlantic but the real war in the southern hemisphere is already over what we are watching now is the beginning of its bloody aftermath that aftermath is the battle for the falkland islands they have been promised to argentina as a reward for her role in the secret war at this moment the bolsheviks here in washington are pressing for a public announcement that the united states will side with britain as soon as that takes place military action will heat up fast around the falklands britain has no choice but to fight she has already suffered casualties which cannot be explained without a public battle but by fighting the bolsheviks in britain are running the risk of a humiliating and tragic defeat for the royal navy meanwhile the rockefeller strategists here are now concentrating on a fast building anti nuclear war campaign on all sides now we are hearing about the so called nuclear freeze movement there are documentaries articles publicity of all kinds to sensitize us to the terrors of nuclear war in recent months there have even been referenda popping up on election ballots dealing with the nuclear war issue medical doctors are banding together to warn the public about what would happen if there were a nuclear war we are being told that all this is just popping up spontaneously we are now years into the nuclear age and nothing like this has ever gained so much momentum before yet now we are supposed to believe that millions of americans have spontaneously gotten the same ideas at the same time if you believe that my friends i give up movements like this never and i mean never develop without leadership organization and money and plenty of it what we are watching is the rockefeller public relations machine at work as i ve explained in the past the rockefeller cartel cannot afford to let a nuclear war take place if it does they will lose everything because they are not in a position to control it instead the deadly enemies of the rockefeller cartel the bolsheviks here will win out if there is a war and so the rockefeller faction is now doing everything in its power to prevent a nuclear war the present anti nuclear war orientation of the rockefeller cartel creates certain temporary common interests between them and russia but as russia s new rulers know very well this does not spring from any great moral perspective on the part of the rockefeller group it s purely a matter of practical necessity right now for the rockefellers the russians regard the united states as a house divided and they are exploiting that division by working in careful ways with the rockefellers their first priority is to rid the world of the deadly bolshevik menace of all out even suicidal nuclear war but once that is done they know that there will be a day of reckoning with the rockefeller cartel some day the rockefeller group is working toward a definite objective with their new anti nuclear war propaganda that objective is renewed power and power that moves them closer to their old dream of world government the bolsheviks here have unwittingly provided fertile ground for the powerful new rockefeller antiwar campaign under bolshevik control the so called reagan administration has become so hawkish that it s scaring people the rockefeller antiwar campaign is designed to capitalize on that latent fear as a tool of power these days the smell of war is in the air the falklands crisis is helping to make that more intense the rockefeller propaganda machine is now paving the way for the argument that surrender of sovereignty is the only way to avoid war a new super united nations of sorts is now in the works to fill the bill it will have teeth as presently envisioned the new organization will be based in geneva switzerland the working name though this may be changed is the world nonproliferation council the plan is to bring it into being as the outgrowth of nuclear nonproliferation treaties but its true purpose will be to use fear the fear of war to control us all last minute summary now it s time for my last minute summary in this audio letter i have reported on the reasons behind the so called falkland islands crisis the crisis erupted because of secret bolshevik controlled naval installations in the southern hemisphere these have been attacked by joint action of the rockefeller cartel and the russians in an attempt to slow down the nuclear war timetable the attacks were successful but the results remain to be seen one result though is that the royal navy has now been drawn into a trap britain s waterloo at sea may well be at hand my friends two factions are struggling for control over our united states the rockefeller cartel and the bolsheviks they differ in style but both seek to control us through fear if we are ever to rise above their trickery it must be through the power of our lord jesus christ our only hope as the scripture tells us our lord has not given us the spirit of fear but of power of love and of a sound mind we must learn to wage peace as our lord declared long ago blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called sons of god until next month god willing this is dr beter thank you and may god bless each and every one of you
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re supply sider lightbulb joke lip s gov loren i petrich writes there was once the following joke how many supply siders does it take to screw in a light bulb none they let the free market do it if the free market places an attractive price on the screwing in of a light bulb you can bet your bottom dollar that the light bulb will most certainly get screwed in and most promptly at that too the views expressed herein are theodore a kaldis my own only do you seriously kaldis remus rutgers edu believe that a major university rutgers remus rutgers edu kaldis as this would hold such views
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re how many homosexuals are there too many the views expressed herein are theodore a kaldis my own only do you seriously kaldis remus rutgers edu believe that a major university rutgers remus rutgers edu kaldis as this would hold such views
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re why not concentrate on child molesters in article apr lmpsbbs comm mot com bhv areaplg corp mot com bronis vidugiris says in article pdxgate uucp a cb rigel cs pdx edu chris bertholf writes mcartwr auvm american edu martina cartwright writes the official and legal term for rape is the crime of forcing a female to submit to sexual intercourse please supply me with some references i was not aware that all states had the word female in the rape statutes i am sure others are surprised as well i know thats how it works in practice nice n fair not but was unaware that it was in the statutes as applying to females only uniformly throughout the u s i agree mostly with chris it is unfortunately imo true that the fbi figures for rape based on the uniform crime report report only female rapes however some states such as illinois are not tabluated because they refuse to comply with this sexist definition the worms crawl in the worms crawl out the worms post to the net from your account insofar as several liberal jurisdictions are concerned the essential elements of rape are gender neutral nonetheless i decided to provide a number of references to support my original argument black s law dictionary every law student lawyer s friend defines rape as unlawful sexual intercourse with a female without her consent the unlawful knowledge of a woman by a man forcibly and against her will the model penal code the statute proposed by the national conference of commissioners of uniform state laws or other organization for adoption by state legislatures defines rape as a male who has sexual intercourse with a female not his wife is guilty of rape if he a compels her to submit by force or by threat of imminent death mpc a indeed the following jurisdictions states have statutes similar to the mpc alabama code of ala a arkansas ark stat ann district of columbia d c code georgia o f g a idaho idaho code maryland md ann code art mississippi miss code ann new york check case law n y c l s penal north carolina n c gen stat puerto rico l p r a ta martina
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clinton press availability with russian press the white house office of the press secretary vancouver british columbia for immediate release april press conference by the president with russian press canada place vancouver british columbia p m pdt q i had two questions for both presidents so you could probably answer for boris too laughter the president i ll give you my answer then i ll give you yeltsin s answer laughter q the first is that this is the meeting of the presidents so the money that s being promised is government money and naturally it s going to be distributed through the government but you ve indicated that three quarters are going to be going to businesses so the question is how the russian businesses themselves are going to be consulted if ever what are the priorities because there are several association of russian businessmen existing already so will they be invited to participate in setting up priorities for investment this is the first and second to you we know that polls public polls in america do not show that americans are very enthusiastic about giving this aid like newsweek polls say that about percent don t approve it and new york times published that percent support if it just prevents civil war percent if it fosters democratic reform and only percent if it just personally supports yeltsin how are you going to sort of handle this problem that americans themselves are not very enthusiastic thank you q i have a question i m sorry is there going to be a translation of everything into russian no just the answers just the answers okay the president the answer to the first question is it depends on what kind of aid we re discussing for example the funds that will be set up for financing new businesses will obviously go to those businesses who apply and who seem to be good risks and make the application the privatization fund will be used to support the privatization of existing public enterprises then there are some other general funds in the democracy corps and other things which people in russia will have some influence over the distribution of with regard to your second question let me say that i would think that there would be people in both countries who would not feel too warmly toward simply the american government giving money to the russian government there s opposition to that in russia and in our country throughout our whole history there has been an opposition to foreign aid of all kinds that is this has nothing to do with russia if you look at the whole history of america any kind of aid program has always been unpopular what i have tried to tell the american people is is this is not an aid program this is an investment program that this is an investment in our future we spent trillion trillion on armaments on soldiers and other investments because of the cold war now with a democratic government in russia with the newly independent states the remainder of them working on a democracy and struggling to get their economies going it seems to me very much in our interest to make it possible to do whatever we can for democracy to survive for the economy of russia to grow because of the potential for trade and investment there and for us to continue the effort to reduce nuclear weapons and other elements of hostility on both sides on our side and on the russian side so i don t see this as an aid program this is an investment for the united states this is very much in the interest of the united states the things i announced today the second stage of the program which i hope to put together next week in my view are things that are good for my country and for the taxpayers and workers of my country russia is a very great nation that needs some partnership now some common endeavor with other people who share her goals but it would be a great mistake for anyone to view this as some sort of just a charity or an aid issue that s not what it is it s an investment for america and it s a wonderful investment like all investments there is some risk but there s far less risk with a far greater potential of return than the trillion we spent looking at each other across the barrier of the cold war q mr president first of all thank you very much indeed for coming here and talking to us in the memory of the living correspondents this is the first time an american president is doing this to the russian press corps so it s kind of a very measured breakthrough i have two questions one in your introductory remarks of the other press conference you mentioned in brief that you discussed the start ii and start i issues could you tell us did you reach an agreement with president yeltsin as to what might be done in order to have ukraine join the ratification of start i and the npt regime and my second question is how confident you are that the united states congress would be eager to support you in lifting jackson vanik and other restrictions inherited from the cold war president clinton first we discussed the issue of ukraine with regard to start i and npt and generally with regard to the need to proceed to have the other independent states all be non nuclear but also to have the united states develop strong relationships with them we know that one thing that we could do that would increase i think the willingness of the ukraine to support this direction is to successfully conclude our own negotiations on highly enriched uranium because that would provide not only an important economic opportunity for russia but also for ukraine and it would show some reaching out on our part but we agreed that basically the people who signed off on the lisbon protocol have got to honor what they did and we agreed to continue to press that i myself have spent a good deal of time trying to reassure ukraine s leaders specifically the president and the foreign minister that i want strong ties with ukraine that the united states very much wants a good relationship with ukraine but that in order to do what we need to do together to strengthen the economy of ukraine and to have the united states be fully supportive the commitment to ratify start i and to join the npt regime is critical what was the second question the president with regard to jackson vanik and cocom i would make two points first i have agreed with the republican and democratic leaders in the congress that we will as soon as i return have a list of all the legislative and other restrictions some of them are regulatory in nature imposed on relations between the united states and russia that are legacies of the cold war and we will see whether they re how many of them we could agree to do away with right now at least among the leadership of the congress with regard to jackson vanik i think there will be an openness to change the law if the congress is convinced there are in fact no more refusniks no more people who wish to emigrate who are not being allowed to if the fact is that there is no one there who would have been who the law was designed to affect then i think that the desire to keep the law will be much less with regard to cocom my guess is and it s nothing more than a guess that the leadership of congress and indeed my own advisers might prefer to see some sort of phased movement out of the cocom regime but i think they would be willing to begin it in the fairly near future q mr clinton when i read your speech in annapolis i got the impression that you have a completely different personal and i stress that personal not political approach towards russia compared to the approach of mr bush could you formulate in a few words what is the difference between you as a personality and your approach the difference between your approach to russia and the approach of mr bush and who made you why did you cite akhmatova in the last part of your speech the president let me say first i do not wish to compare myself with president bush or anyone else i can t say what was in his heart about russia i can say that since i was a boy i have been personally fascinated with the history the music and the culture and the literature of russia i have been thrilled by russian music since i was a serious student of music for more than years now i have read major russian novelists and many of your poets and followed your ballet and tried to know as much as i could about your history and i went to the soviet union but it was then the soviet union you may know it was a big issue in the last presidential campaign that i spent the first week of alone in moscow and did not return again until three days before mr yeltsin was elected president but all that time i was away i was following events there very closely and hoping for the day when we could be genuine partners so i have always had a personal feeling about russia i remember for example a lot of you know i like music very much one of the most moving experiences for me as a musician was when leonard bernstein took the new york philharmonic to moscow and played shostakovich s fifth symphony to the russians and he played the last movement more rapidly than anyone had ever played it before because it was technically so difficult that is something i followed very closely when it occurred these are things that have always had a big impact on my life and i had just always hoped that someday if i ever had the chance to i could play a role in seeing our two countries become closer partners applause the press thank you end p m pdt
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clinton public schedule of the president the white house office of the press secretary for immediate release april public schedule of the president tuesday april am est president clinton delivers remarks with egyptian president mubarek the east room the white house open press future schedule of the president april president clinton meets with japanese prime minister miyazawa the white house april president clinton meets with italian president amato the white house
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re losers was re stop putting down white het males in article tecsun tec army mil riggs descartes etl army mil bill riggs writes in article apr galileo cc rochester edu as b uhura cc rochester edu tree of schnopia writes in apr jato jpl nasa gov michael neuron jpl nasa gov michael rivero writes i don t know what you as a white male did i do know what white males as a class have done they ve invented the light bulb the automobile the airplane printing with movable type photography computers the electric guitar anasthesia rocket powered space flight the computer electricity the telephone tv motion pictures penecillin sp telescopes nylon and the x ray machine two glaring errors here first white males don t do anything as a class individual white males invented those things which means nothing to white males as a whole second you neglected to mention charles manson hitler mccarthy jack the ripper ted bundy and a whole slew of individuals who have done horrible evil things if white males can take the credit for our fellow white males boons we must also take the blame for our fellows blights i claim we deserve neither credit nor blame for these things white males need to wake up and realize that they re being unfair yes but everyone else needs to wake up and realize that being unfair right back is disgusting racist and sexist why can t we learn to treat everyone fairly without generalizing what stupidity gene makes this so difficult i d like to buy the world a clue the word that is missing in this whole discourse is not the b word or the h word or even the n or w words it is the l word loser that s right when we boil all the crap out of this argument it is all about winning and losing and nothing else let me explain in the meantime there is guilt for winning maybe a fear that one doesn t deserve one s bounty or success so there is a kinder and gentler type of politician these days bill clinton affirmative action and lots of discourse about people who don t get it for those of us in the winning business this kind of talk is mildly irritating but there is still no suggestion of losing who is d fens anyway the answer is as plain as the horn rims on your face the guy is michael douglas posing as a loser this is known as controversial casting but that baggy short sleeved white shirt sure does look natural on mike doesn t it gordon gekko will never look the same though woody always dressed that way did we really expect gekko to take it easy and enjoy that kind of wardrobe without putting up a fuss what we are starting to lose sight of is that bashing d fens is the same game as bashing that poor african american slug that clint eastwood used to blow away all the time as that arch wasp male gender george c scott declaimed americans traditionally love to win they love a winner and will not tolerate a loser and so on since we are talking in theory and opinion then i ll put in my first a rebuttle personally i love under dogs unlike bandwagon jumpers i abandon teams when they start winning people that cheer for winners just because they are winners are insecure people who are afraid to be associated with something negative the political implications are simple if as many socialists and democrats do you consider society a finite pie to a apportioned in some equitable way then you have to worry about who is a winner and who is a loser to tell whose side you are on that could be black women today asian homosexuals tommorrow and yes indeed white men some yet to be determined day when the balance of the pie has finally swung against that minority on this one point i agree the reason that people bash wasp s is because they have been on top for a long time whoever is on top is going to oppress whoever is below them so that they can stay on top if hannibal had pushed on to rome after his victory at cannae we might all be bashing the blacks for oppressing us peacefull white people for all these centuries i seriously doubt that if the blacks had conquered the world that they would have treated their colonies any better worse than the whites did the white race did some unspeakable things to the other races of the world but they only did what any other conquering race would have done ie khan the real question is should we carry over that blame to the present generation who didn t participate in the crimes would it do any good has it done bosnia any good they are fighting wars that stopped hundreds even thousands of years ago my opinion is if there are inequities now then let s change them but don t blame me for what my ancestors did it wouldn t settle anything anyway either way you go the way of the winner is no longer the way to be popular at least after you graduate from high school but you ll still be popular at high school reunions but it beats being a nerd as i would imagine michael douglas would now agree and in the long run it is the only way to go that s where you are dead wrong you don t join up on a side just because they are winning that makes you spineless winning in high school and after high school is still the best way to be popular but it doesn t make you right all the best causes in history were loosing causes with only a couple exceptions winning only makes a difference to other people not to yourself and what good is the opinions of other people if they only care how you appear ie a winner if you can t beat them fight them every inch of the way bill r at that moment the bottom fell out of authur s mind garrett johnson his eyes turned inside out his feet began to leak out garrett ingres com of the top of his head the room folded flat around him spun around shifted out of existence and left him sliding into his own naval douglas adams
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clinton press briefing by george stephanopoulos the white house office of the press secretary for immediate release april press briefing by george stephanopolous the briefing room a m edt mr stephanopoulos as you know the president is soon to be on his way on amtrack to camden yards he ll be throwing out the first pitch q it s marc the maryland area transit it s not amtrack mr stephanopoulos oh it s not amtrack well he s going from union station you re right excuse me q george what exactly are you prepared to do to break the logjam with senate mr stephanopoulos well as you know there are discussions between senator mitchell and senator dole this morning and i think that the president is going to continue to make the point that he believes that our investment package our jobs package needs to be passed as quickly as possible we need this investment for summer jobs for immunization for highway construction for the important programs that will put people back to work right away this summer and the president continues to believe his program should be passed q will he compromise that s the question mr stephanopoulos well as you know the discussions are going on this morning in the senate betwen senator mitchell and senator dole let s see what they come up with but the president believes his jobs program should go forward q george would the president be willing to accept billion for one year which apparently appears to be the compromise being offered by mr stephanopoulos well i don t know what is being offered by either side the senate discussions are going on right now let s see what happens today q would he go that far no matter what the republicans have offered so far would he go that far billion per year mr stephanopoulos the president believes that his program should be passed at this time clearly we re going to be willing to listen to what the senators might or might not be able to come up with but i m not going to get into figures right now let s see what happens q it s reasonable to assume isn t it from what has happened so far that a compromise is going to be necessary in order to get a vote mr stephanopoulos well the republicans seem more intrested in stopping progress on the president s jobs bill than in doing something to create mr stephanopoulos well the republicans seem more interested in stopping progress on the president s jobs bill than in doing something to create real action real jobs this summer for the american people i think there s no question about that there s been some frustration of legislative activity over the last few days q so you ll need to compromise to get your package through mr stephanopoulos we ll see what happens with the conversations between senator mitchell and senator dole this morning q prepared to compromise mr stephanopoulos the president s prepared to listen to what senator mitchell has to say this morning after his meeting with senator dole q does he feel that he has been defeated in his mr stephanopoulos not in the least in fact he s been very successful so far in the beginning of his term q how mr stephanopoulos he passed his budget in record time in six weeks and it s a budget which reduces the deficit by billion over five years and it s a budget which provides for important investments in our future right now we ve also had strong passage of his jobs program through the house simply because a minority of republicans in the senate choose to perpetuate gridlock and hold up action on the president s jobs program is not a sign that he is not succeeding overall q he can t beat this can he q the fact is they can do that mr stephanopoulos well the republicans can stop action there s no question about that q what are you going to do about it q george what do you know about these alleged notes taken by boris yeltsin during one of the meetings in which it appears that the president told boris yeltsin not to trust the japanese that when they say yes they mean no mr stephanopoulos i think that s a complete misreading of what happened at the meeting the context of the conversation was that president clinton was actually reassuring president yeltsin at the time about his conversations with prime minister miyazawa over the kuril islands and the prime minister s belief that japan would play a constructive role in the g process i mean this was a casual comment about japanese courtesy and etiquette but overall it was in the context of a conversation where he was reassuring president yeltsin that he believed the japanese were serious about their commitment to the g process q are you saying that the president said that when the japanese say yes they mean no mr stephanopoulos that s not i don t know the exact words and there was a much longer discussion about he did say something along the lines that he believes that on this issue prime minister miyazawa intends to really go forward with the g process q have there been any attempts to explain this to the japanese because apparently the japanese press has picked this up and there appears to be mr stephanopoulos i ve seen the reports in the japanese press and it actually does put the situation in context it does talk about the japanese understanding the japanese points of view i don t think it s going to be a problem i believe that there may have been some diplomatic context just to clear things up but i m not positive q george was the specific comment that was made specific to the kuril island situation or was it a general observation on japanese etiquette mr stephanopoulos the discussion was about q the specific comment is what i m asking about that has alleged to have been translated from the russian notes when the japanese say yes they mean no mr stephanopoulos well it was a combination i mean i don t think that s the whole sentence i think that the specific comment was a broad general observation followed up by a specific finish to the sentence where he said in this case he believes that prime minister miyazawa means to keep the commitment q was he saying it facetiously first mr stephanopoulos i think it was just a casual observation q and then you say diplomatic contacts were made to clear it up has the president sent a message mr stephanopoulos no i don t think the president spoke i believe that secretary christopher has made some calls but i m not sure exactly how many q well this obviously is a bigger deal than you re making it out to be if christopher has had to make some calls mr stephanopoulos no no it was just that we got the reports in vancouver and the secretary wanted to make sure that it was understood and make sure there was absolutely no mr stephanopoulos reports in vancouver and the secretary wanted to make sure that it was understood and make sure there is absolutely no misunderstanding and i don t believe there is on q what is our position about the japanese that they may have to say one thing but actualy mean another mr stephanopoulos no the position on the japanese is as the president stated to president yeltsin throughout the two days he said that he had had a good conversation with prime minister miazawa prior to the summit he reiterated the u s position the long standing support for the japanese position on the kuril islands but also reiterated prime minister miazawa s commitment to move forward on the g process and to play a constructive role and i think president yeltsin was very glad to hear that q after listening to secretary christopher on iraq for the last few days i m a little confused what is the u s policy do you want to see saddam hussein overturned mr stephanopoulos it s the same policy that secretary christopher has reiterated and all of the u s officials have reiterated we expect full and complete and unequivocal compliance with all u n resolutions right now we do not have that compliance q throwing it out further that if iraq complies saddam can t stay in office mr stephanopoulos right i think that that s our judgment is that it is not possible for saddam hussein to comply with the resolutions and stay in power but the important point is that we expect compliance by iraq with all u n resolutions and we will continue to demand it q and are you concerned the iran will become the dominant power in the area mr stephanopoulos secretary christopher has also spoken to iran over the last several days and he says we also expect full iranian compliance with all international norms and stopping support of terrorism q that s a very glib statement that he won t stay in power if he complies with u n resolutions on what logic do you base that mr stephanopoulos right now saddam hussein is not complying with the u n resolutions at all he is not respecting the rights of his people as is required by the u n resolution he is not fully complying with all the resolutions regarding inspections he is not fully complying with all the resolutions regarding armaments q well when do you think that if he did comply he would be out of power mr stephanopoulos well right now his power rests on the repression of his people if he stopped doing that it would make it more difficult for him to stay in power q george back on the stimulus package why is it that you and the president accuse the republicans of playing pure politics and perpetuating gridlock why is it that what evidence do you have that they just don t have a genuine idealogical difference with you that s in good faith mr stephanopoulos well the fact that several times in the past the republicans many of the ones who are now leading the fight for the filibuster have supported the very funding they now seek to stop most especially the highway funding q george in regards to that some of the moderate republicans said that the white house erred by not being more open to them during the while the plan was put together that they had one sort of proforma meeting between the white house and the senate republicans and that was it does the administration look back and thinks perhaps it could have done a better job of working with some mr stephanopoulos well i m not sure that it s true that there was only one meeting i mean the president met with the republican leadership on at least two occasions before the introduction of his package he met with the entire senate republican caucus also for lunch and went up there we are continually in contact with as many republicans as we can find who have an interest in the president s package we are interested in what they have to say as well but we believe that this program is important and we re going to continue to fight for it q your all or nothing do it with the democrats alone strategy did you maybe miscalculate the ability to get it through mr stephanopoulos well i mean i think that there is no question that under the senate rules a determined minority can frustrate activity i mean there is just no question about that you only need plus one to keep going plus one to keep going and to stop any action and that s what the republicans are doing q going to rethink the way you attempt to get other things passed as you go through this process for the rest of the summer q work with republicans and try to woo some republicans into your camp mr stephanopoulos i think we re going to continue to look for the support of republicans whenever we can get it on the president s intiatives q but on this one how are you going to do it differently than you did it on this one because on this one you really did stiff the republicans from the beginning and made it clear that it was a democratic majority that would get this through and could get it through and you really didn t need republican votes are you going to take a different tack when you have to go for particular votes when you have to go through mr stephanopoulos i can t see into the future and understand every possible turn in the legislative road clearly the president s going to continue to reach out when he can q you don t have any regrets then about the way you have handled it up to now and you don t plan any changes in your approach in dealing with the republicans in congress based on this experience mr stephanopoulos obviously the president would like his package passed as quickly as possible and he s going to continue to press for that we will continue to reach out to republicans there s not question about that and we ll continue to reason with them and try and find appropriate avenues for cooperation in this case the republicans have chosen to unify around a filibuster around a plan to frustrate action not a plan to move forward q they re being denied any other legislative means of putting their proposals forward mr stephanopoulos i think they re being q any ideas mr stephanopoulos i think their amendments are being defeated i don t know that they re being denied q to present them mr stephanopoulos that s not exactly true i mean they get the votes q that theirs can be passed though by the parliamentary rules under which they re playing mr stephanopoulos unless they get a majority in support all the way around no that s not exactly true q george one more on iraq is the administration backing any of the iraqi opposition grooming any new leadership q backing any of the iraqi leadership mr stephanopoulos oh i again we re pressing for iraqi compliance i don t know if we can get into the business of grooming leadership i believe there have been some contacts at some levels with iraqi opposition groups i don t know about anything recently q jesse jackson who of course is not the president s best friend has however been told that there is to be some kind of town meeting or some kind of involvement by the president pre empted the ball game los angeles will he consider something like that or any other kind of intervention there mr stephanopoulos well as you know the president appointed commerce secretary ron brown about days ago to be a special envoy to california and coordiante cabinet activities around the california economic situation including the situation in los angeles i believe there will also be visits out to los angeles by the education or have been visits by the education secretary mr riley i believe that transportation secretary pena and hud secretary cisneros are also going out and there may be other visits by cabinet officials over the next several days and weeks i wouldn t rule out the possibility of a visit by president clinton to california obviously he is following the situation closely and is concerned about making sure that we make the right long term policy decisions that will help create the kind of economic opportunities which help prevent disturbances but we re going to continue to watch it q george as a follow up reverend jackson is also supposed to be outside the ball park today in baltimore with a group of supporters protesting the lack of minorities in baseball management does the president have a position on that mr stephanopoulos the president has received correspondence from reverend jackson i know that reverend jackson has also spoken with the white house chief of staff mack mclarty he clearly raises serious questions there has been some progress in baseball over the last several years but still not enough but the president intends to continue to go to the ball game q is he going to say anything about it today or see reverend jackson while he s out there mr stephanopoulos i don t know if he is going to see them but as i said the president believes that reverend jackson has raised some serious questions and it s something that as i said even though there has been progress it s clearly not enough q did reverend jackson ask him not to go to the ball game mr stephanopoulos i m not sure about that i believe the characterization the reverend jackson is talking about is an informational pickett i don t know that he asked him not to go to the ball game but he sent a long detailed formal letter outlining his concerns with the situation in major league baseball and the president read it q george the orioles are playing the rangers the managing partner of the rangers is george w bush is he going to be there and is he going to meet with the president mr stephanopoulos i don t know q what is the mubarak schedule mr stephanopoulos i know that president mubarak is coming tomorrow morning for a working meeting they will have a lunch and i believe that he is having dinner tonight with vice president gore q and joint statements tomorrow mr stephanopoulos i believe so yes at the end yes q is there evidence george that the egyptians did warn the u s about a potential terrorist bombing terrorist activities mr stephanopoulos as reported in the new york times i mean i think that president mubarak did say that there has been general conversations with the egyptians as there have been for a long period of time we do have general intelligence sharing i mean but president mubarak was very careful to point out that there was no specific information on this visit that was passed forward the president will continue to investigate the situation but he also reiterates his belief that we cannot tolerate terrorism of any kind q george he did make specific or the egyptians apparently did issue specific warnings about this individual who forgive me this individual who forgive me the name escapes me at the moment and said the egyptians were more or less rebuffed in their attempts to get some kind of action mr stephanopoulos again i don t know if i would agree with your characterization of the mubarak interview he did say that they gave general warnings about the possibility of a network in the united states and upon which we took appropriate action but there was no specific information on this specific operation at all q so the white house doesn t feel that any of the law enforcement agencies whether it be the cia or fbi who would have received this kind of information was lax or derelict in its duty in not pursuing some kind of mr stephanopoulos no not at all q what s next with serbia it got only a passing mention in the news conference yesterday mr stephanopoulos you didn t get to ask your question q yes exactly was there any agreement on concerted action between the two countries and even if there wasn t what does the u s do next mr stephanopoulos i think the u s is clearly going to move forward in the u n today continuing discussions with our allies on a sanctions resolution and we ll continue to look for ways to press the serbians to come to the negotiating table and sign an agreement q george why do you think sanctions is still an option i mean the serbians make it clear that at least the leadership is surviving just fine and they feel like they can wait you out and even the administration officials we had in the other day said there s no evidence that they re going to have an effect any time soon the bosnian serbs have said no to the peace plan when does no mean no and you have to do something different mr stephanopoulos well i mean we are doing something different we re moving forward on further sanctions through the u n and those discussions will continue we re going to continue to try and tighten the noose on serbia and i think that every opportunity we have to do that will have an effect over time q are we looking again at lifting the arms embargo mr stephanopoulos the president has said that this is something that is under consideration q george do you have any more on hugh rodham s condition how he s doing mr stephanopoulos as far as i know nothing s changed q george week after mr mubarak mr stephanopoulos it s a little unclear i think we ll be able to get you more either tonight or tomorrow morning after the mubarak visit q is he going somewhere for easter mr stephanopoulos not that i know of q what more can you tell us about the additional aid to russia that the president plans to ask congress about mr stephanopoulos he s going to be consulting with the congress and with our g partners over the next couple of weeks i know that he spoke last evening with congressman gephardt and their delegation before the the congressional delegation meets with the russians this week and those consultations will continue over the next several weeks q do you expect that package to be of the magnitude of the one announced sunday mr stephanopoulos i m not going to discuss the magnitude q how about the list of cold war restrictions where do you stand on that mr stephanopoulos as the president said yesterday he s going to be looking for that list from the congress this week and reviewing it he believes he s going to try and get it this week and he s going to review the list and we re going to take a hard look at it q but they re making it up i mean it s no white house involvement congress is compiling this list mr stephanopoulos i think he s going to talk to the congressional leaders about compiling the list but i m certain we ll be able to get our own researchers working as well q george isn t lifting the arms embargo more of a probability than a possibility mr stephanopoulos it s something that s under discussion q secretary christopher has said that it s a matter of time and for months before that happens mr stephanopoulos again all i can say is that it s something that the president is reviewing right now we re working with our allies in the u n on a sanctions resolution and we ll continue to review other matters q george can you tell us anything about the schedule this week any travel mr stephanopoulos they just asked about that i don t have anything more beyond tomorrow s visit with mubarak right now q are there consultations george with any jewish american organizations concerning jackson vanick mr stephanopoulos as you know the national conference of soviet jewry has a list of i believe mr stephanopoulos as you know the national conference of soviet jewry has a list of i believe refuseniks we ll certainly take a look at that and continue appropriate discussions thanks
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clinton president s remarks on trip to baltimore the white house office of the press secretary for immediate release april remarks by the president en route to camden yards for orioles opening day game marc train en route to camden yards a m edt q mr president what do you think of jesse jackson s protest today the president i think it s an informational protest i think it s fine the owners put out a statement few days ago which they say was the first step in you know efforts to increase minority ownership and minority increases in management i think we should i m encouraged by don baylor s appointment out in colorado and i think it s time to make a move on that front so i think it s a legitimate issue and i think it s like i said it s an informational picket and not an attempt to get people not to go to the game so i think it s good q do you think they re moving fast enough the president well i think that it was a good first step and i think you ll see some movement now and i think it s an issue that deserves some attention and they re obviously going to give it some and i think that reverend jackson being out there will highlight the issue so i think it s fine q mr president how about the logjam in the senate on the economic stimulus plan do you think they ll be able to break that and get cloture the president i don t know we re working at it i mean it s a classic there was an article in the paper today one of the papers i saw which pretty well summed it up they said you know this is a it s just a political power play in the senate the majority does not rule it s not like the country it s not like the it s not like the house if the minority chooses they can stop majority rule and that s what they re doing there are a lot of republican senators who have told people that they might vote for the stimulus program but there s enormous partisan political pressure not to do it and of course what it means is that in this time when no new jobs are being created even though there seems to be an economic recovery it means that for political purposes they re willing to deny jobs to places like baltimore and dallas and houston and pittsburgh and philadelphia and portland and seattle it s very sad i mean the block grant program was designed to create jobs in a hurry based on local priorities and it s one that the republicans had always championed just about the only democrat champions of the program were people like me who were out there at the grassroots level governors and senators i just think it s real sad that they have chosen to exert the minority muscle in a way that will keep americans out of work i think it s a mistake the press thank you end a m edt
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re still waiting for evidence mr cramer in article mortalc wxln s netcom com mortal netcom com sam lowry writes in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes in article mar rational com kima excalibur rational com kim althoff writes in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes gay men constitute at least of all child molestations whether this is because gay molesters are unusually common or have unusually high numbers of victims sort of misses the point doesn t it it means that whichever is the case homosexual men are remarkably hazardous to children clayton says you are incorrect the most recent survey data i can find shows that of molestation is exclusively homosexuals is bisexual victims are both male and female and the remainder is exclusively heterosexual so what you are saying is that of the child molestations are committed by heterosexuals i cannot see the correlation you cite bisexuals are heterosexuals since when which concludes that by being homosexual you will molest children or that by being homosexual you will have the propensity for molesting children i haven t said that homosexual child molester simply that is more likely if of the molestations are by homosexuals why are you so concerned about creating a relation between the two if you had evidence that of the molestations are committed by homosexuals you might find a relationship ok where is the realtionship you make the one that is shown when nambla marches in gay parades also what is the reason people molest from human sexuality and a psych class or too i have taken the overwhelming voice says that people commit these acts as power trips and to feel in control this has nothing to do with sexual orientation you mean that s m because it s a power trip has nothing to do with sexual orientation mortal netcom com clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
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re a loathesome subject in article c y dd l n panix com roy panix com roy radow writes anyone with any degree of sensitivity or awareness has to be concerned about the horrendous amount of child abuse that exists in this country the critical factor here is whether the sexual activity is forced when a child is forced there is often damage on the other hand consensual relationships are often found to be positive experiences for all concerned roy radow roy panix com rutgers cmcl panix roy north american man boy love association for a packet containing a sample why all the quote marks roy i can see that they might be appropriate where there is a legitimate concern that the words are being distorted by context or that they have been appropriated newspeak style but reading your comments above one might be excused if they assumed that you were claiming that child abuse forced sexual activity and damage caused by this is non existant or greatly overblown positive experiences indeed paul elliott member in good standing of the optilink mafia paul elliott dsc optilink petaluma ca usa uunet pyramid tekbspa optilink elliott or elliott optilink com i used to think i was indecisive but now i m not so sure
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re roe v wade in article c xawp tak watson ibm com margoli watson ibm com larry margolis writes in apr ncsu edu dsh eceyv ncsu edu doug holtsinger writes abortions destructive of the fetus must be permitted even just before birth if they promote what the supreme court calls health yes doug we all know that roe v wade prevents states from prohibiting abortions necessary to preserve the life or health of the woman only very stupid people such as yourself confuse a discussion of mental health related to jane doe who was in a mental institution and attempt to claim that this same argument could be applied to a woman who decided she wanted an abortion because she was having a bad hair day as you well know the facts are that there are about third trimester abortions performed in this country annually and those are only done for serious health reasons larry margolis margoli yktvmv bitnet margoli watson ibm com internet hmmm human gestation period is something like weeks that means third trimester abortions are those done after weeks in consulting a world almanac i see that of abortions in were done at weeks or more that s about abortions in after weeks unless the number of abortions performed has dropped dramatically or a lot of abortions are done between and weeks i think you are wrong by the way roe v wade allowed states to adopt very very broad prohibitions on third trimester abortions but some states such as california declined to do so it was reported that what finally stopped third trimester elective abortions in the bay area wasn t law but that the only hospital doing them ran out of nurses then doctors willing to do them not surprisingly the bay area now chapter was terribly upset about this i remain pro choice but when pro choicers compare abortion in a clinic to a religious ritual in a church you have to start wondering a bit if the pro life criticism of abortion as modern human sacrifice doesn t have a grain of truth to it clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
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re age of consent child molestation from article c zlj bun queernet org by rogerk queernet org roger b a klorese in article optilink com walsh optilink com mark walsh writes nambla s presence in the sf gay pride parade says quite a bit it says that either the parade organizers want to show support for nambla or they themselves have a fundamental misunderstanding of their rights and responsibilities i would really really like to believe the latter but i would need some help to do so there are dozens of examples of the latter nambla is an especially glaring one but hardly the only one perhaps though the exclusion of the gay perotistas in the sf gay pride parade would make me think that they had some clue in this regard dozens of examples i don t know mark walsh walsh optilink uucp uunet optilink walsh amateur radio km xu wx k aol bigcookie aol com uscf l what me worry william m gaines i m gonna crush you andre the giant
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re age of consent child molestation in article c tz cpp panix com roy panix com roy radow writes in optilink com walsh optilink com mark walsh writes it should be noted that nambla has not been present in the other or so gay parades in the nation while i view this as an isolated event i am very troubled by its reccurence i hope i m not going to hate myself for getting involved in this discussion but i felt obliged to keep things factually accurate last year nambla marched in the pride parades in boston new york and san francisco it was not the first time we participated in these parades and it will not be the last i have marched with the nambla contingent in new york every year for more than a decade thank you for correcting the error in my post to the net this information came from a newspaper article that was fuzzy in my mind i can only wonder if there have been similar outcries about nambla s presence in the parades of new york and boston yours in liberation from molestation mark north american micro biological laboratories association for a packet containing a sample bulletin publications list and membership information send postage to note sometimes i do the darndest things while trying to squelch my desire to flame the living daylights out of somebody for their beliefs and or associations especially if they are so genial phil take it away mark walsh walsh optilink uucp uunet optilink walsh amateur radio km xu wx k aol bigcookie aol com uscf l what me worry william m gaines i m gonna crush you andre the giant
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re i thought commercial advertising was not allowed in c sma gk voder nsc com matt galaxy nsc com matt freivald x writes in article in talk politics misc margoli watson ibm com larry margolis writes i would suggest that legal precedent defines a human being i e a person whose rights are protected by the constitution and the law as someone with a functioning brain no if you want to use legal precedent you should take a look at the model penal code on which many states base their criminal code my apologies if i was unclear i was not trying to start a statutory debate since there are many in some cases conflicting statutes on the books i was merely suggesting a paradigm that might make sense for a pro choicer imho and i was pointing out that legal precedent defines a human being as referring only to the born so your suggestion was incorrect if at some point an unborn child is a human being the parents clearly have the same responsibilities toward her as any other parents have toward their children and no parent can be forced to supply bodily resources toward their children even if necessary to save the child s life there is a confusion here between action and inaction a parent does not have to run out in front of a bus to save their child s life either but a parent is required to feed his children there is a confusion here about what bodily resources constitutes blood transfusions and organ donations involve bodily resources your examples do not larry margolis margoli yktvmv bitnet margoli watson ibm com internet
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re how many heterosexuals are there kaldis romulus rutgers edu theodore a kaldis writes too many agreed we need more folks to admit they re bi michael d adams starowl a i rahul net champaign il southeast al thrush believes in the two party system the masters and the slaves napoleon solo from the man from u n c l e
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re top ten reasons not to aid russians julie eddie jpl nasa gov julie kangas writes in article c wj y encore com rcollins ns encore com roger collins writes julie eddie jpl nasa gov julie kangas writes don t look at me i want to send aid to russia many other conservatives do as well yes it was nixon who was most vocal about giving money to russia it makes me proud to be a libertarian it appears both conservatives and liberals prefer to cold war until you win then nurse the enemy back to health for another go around enemy sounds like that s the viewpoint of the stereotypical rednecked conservative always been commies always will be ok i should have said former enemy i was being sarcastic about what interventionists want to do i suggest you listen very carefully to the stuff yeltsin and his people are saying and compare that with the very anti west slogans coming from his opponents in the russian congress i sure know who i want to back could we back him without forcing others to back him at the point of a gun have you considered a non interventionist policy if market reform does happen russia will certainly get private capital at private risk to help their economy they will even have incentive to do so for the same reason if they don t reform then our government will probably consider them enemies anyway and rather spend money to hurt rather than help them then their s the ideological point we want to win russia over to our type of government a type where the rulers can rule without limit over everyone s finances it s like subsidizing the wealthy countries japan germany etc with free defense and then trade warring with them because of the economic competition it s like subsidizing tobacco farmers while paying bureaucrats to pursuade people not to smoke better to let them degenerate into civil war remember all those nuclear weapons in russia i cannot imagine that they would not be used in a civil war if nationialists take over and even if they prevent a civil war most feel they must take back large parts of land that are in other countries like ukraine i also cannot imagine ukraine giving up land without a fight possibly nuclear how does this affect us well we are on the same planet and if vast tracks of europe are blown away i think we d feel something a massive breakup of a country that spans th the planet is bound to have affects here of course there is also the humanitarian argument that democracies should help other democracies or struggling democracies if a billion gift was that important to our well being couldn t it be raised voluntarilly people already give over billion a year to charity i ask myself what law could we pass to prevent government from doing stupid frivilous things with our money then i think the constitution was supposed to do that could someone please tell me what legitimate constitutional power the federal government is using when it takes money from my paycheck and gives it to needy countries seriously seriously everyone has different opinions on what is stupid my two causes are aid to russia and a strong space program someone else will champion welfare or education or doing studies of drunken goldfish that is why we have a republic and not a true democracy instead of gridlock on a massive scale we only have gridlock on a congressional scale it seems instead of gridlock on any scale we have aid to russia expensive space programs national charity that doesn t help the poor and probably studies of drunken goldfish i think limited government is more key than how democratic it is btw who is to decide stupid this is just like those who want to impose their morals on others just the sort of thing i thought libertarians were against that was an opinion and libertarians are very big on free speech actually my politics are pretty libertarian except on this one issue and this is why it is impossible for me to join the party it seems that libertarians want to withdraw from the rest of the world and let it sink or swim if you are pretty libertarian except on this one issue then you should be very libertarian consider it a compromise how much money would your fellow russia aiders have to give to russia if those you oppose weren t using the same government machine to steal money from you and your group for causes you don t support we could do that years ago but not now people have been saying that for hundreds of years like it or not we are in the beginnings of a global economy and global decision making all the more reason to depend on the free market which can more efficiently process information than to depend on rulers for decisions on complex issues julie disclaimer all opinions here belong to my cat and no one else roger collins sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself can he then be trusted with the government of others or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him let history answer this question thomas jefferson first inaugural address
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re why not concentrate on child molesters cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes you mean if a large part of the population supports discrimination against homosexuals they will be injured but if a large part of the population supports such discrimination how did that law get passed an addition to anti discrimination laws which includes homo and bisexuality one would assume it would be because politicians were listening to the people coming up with rational arguments rather than variations on bigotry logic sometimes prevails btw glad to see that you ve admitted sexual attraction to children is a seperate sexual orientation didn t think you had that much honesty tony quirke wellington new zealand quirke a kosmos wcc govt nz usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea massive difficult to redirect awe inspiring entertaining and a source of mind boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it gene spafford
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re top ten comments overheard in the secret service lounge croaker highlite uucp francis a ney writes besides which we don t want clinton assasinated because that would make h a martyr a la jfk it s a much better deal to have him end his term of office in disgrace after watching all his liberal democrat friends on his staff run this nation down t toilet assuming of course that the riots a fortnight from now don t do it for him he d have to go a far ways to run things down as bad as reagan and bush did we didn t have riots but bush got dumped out on his spotty behind we ll see in years pope charles slack in our time s popec unkaphaed jpunix com william c barwell unka phaed s uucp thingy houston tx v bis v bis
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re why not concentrate on child molesters cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes the liberal gov wilder vetoed it which shows that liberals don t give a damn about best person for the job it s just a power play women are only interested in clothes and shopping whites are imperialist colonial fascists blacks are lazy uneducated scum men are rapists homosexuals support child molesting slogans my dear cramer are not an adequate substitute for thought tony quirke wellington new zealand quirke a kosmos wcc govt nz usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea massive difficult to redirect awe inspiring entertaining and a source of mind boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it gene spafford
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re hate crimes laws thf kimbark uchicago edu ted frank writes in article apr news acns nwu edu dmeier casbah acns nwu edu douglas meier writes in article apr isc br isc br com steveh thor isc br com steve hendricks writes in article apr news acns nwu edu dmeier casbah acns nwu edu douglas meier writes if someone beats up a homosexual he should get charged for assault and battery why must we add gay bashing to the list isn t this a sort of double jeopardy or am i just being a fascist again to deter an epidemic of gay bashing that has not been deterred by assault laws so we ought to make beating up a homosexual more illegal than beating up a straight and who s advocating that hate crimes laws are aimed at the motivations of the acts just like premeditated homicide is treated stricter than heat of passion homicide but you still get into trouble for example how often are crimes of violence not hate crimes the question is then who are you hating if its another gang member then its better than if the person you hate is of a differnt color also is it realistic to declare that crimes of hate are worse than crimes of gross negligence like random drive by shootings where they can t be hate crimes because the shooter doesn t know who he is going to hit he just shoots into the crowd no it is not double jeopardy a single act may lead to multiple charges and multiple crimes i think what you meant to say here was with the current mutation of the us constitution under the current police state someone may be charged multiple times for one act if the victim in question is of the right shade a single act should never merit more than on charge so if i set off a bomb in the world trade center i can only be charged with more than one murder and not the other five deaths and extensive property damage after all the bomb was a single act first i heard today that there is a good chance that the u s instead of new york is going after the bombers this means no capital punishment secondly double jepardy does help keep the government from going after you for first one murder then the next etc a sovereign has essentially one chance with a single fact pattern such as the world trade center bombing that is why the bombers will in all probability be tried for all the deaths as well as the property damages as well as conspiracy at once of course as we discovered in the rodney king case there are two sovereigns neither of which can try you twice for the same crime bruce e hayden bhayden csn org
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re tieing abortion to health reform is clinton nuts in article h lnrb zola esd sgi com cj sgi com writes vengeance that s all it s no deterrent it serves no it seems to deter those who are executed from future criminal activity yeah yeah yeah and sure would be nice if we didn t apply the death penalty disproportionately to minorities i ll revisit my opinion on the death penalty when there are more whites up for it than blacks i e when hell freezes over why don t you compare the rates at which blacks and whites commit crimes blacks commit crimes disproportionately so in a perfectly fair penal system blacks would be disproportionately represented note black vs white crime rates is not a racial thing it s probably an economic thing poor people are more likely to commit crimes and blacks are more likely to be poor the way to reduce the proportion of minorities in prison is to increase the wealth of minorities tim smith
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re us government sanctions sacrilege william december starr writes in a typical lawyer baiting fashion as usual all the while ignoring every principle of the aclu good to see your still out there wds surely we ve been around the ring enough by now that you know you can t spin me up with expletives let s see if there s anything left worth responding to cyrus achy breaky heart ad infinitum until either koresh surrenders or the rest of the state of texas is totally depopulated e for effort heard about the folks who live around foghorns and airports erect an inverted cross or a star of david broken asunder out in front of the davidians to provoke them or boom out islamic prayers or worse what temple would you destroy what books would you burn will you kill clergy will you mock the spirit of god before the innocent sure i would why not seems right in character to me creature of the state btw are you still happy with your presidents if you in government have no respect for other s faith and no respect for the lives and well being of those innocent children caught in this hell you ve created why should anyone respect your lipservice of rule of law what does rule of law have to do with respect for anyone s religious faith see the part about the children following the and in the first line above as to a connection your cult is faith in rules no matter who the criminals are or what they ve done and it looks like there are criminals on both sides of the matter their conviction is not worth the abuse you re causing what abuse please be specific sure my concern is the well being of the children if you are willing to ignore the children or heap abuse insult and sacrilege on the children inside the davidian house then god rebuke you best you learn directly from the lord the corruption you re committing in god s good time and way the lord judge you i can not for truth be told i would send you all straight to hell and god would be right in sending me right along with you oh fuck you and the god you rode in on stephen if you can show the legitimacy of god s claim of sovereignty over man please do so otherwise stop ranting and raving about him already william december starr wdstarr athena mit edu interesting that you would respond emotionally in defense of the government maybe there is a beating heart there for the record though the biggest baddest goverment on earth claims the most sovereignty over man best i can tell god allows anyone to go to hell who wants to omnipotency logically determines that allowing and sending mean the same thing mere human concepts of course so come on wds why bother to try some flimsy facade of logic waco proves it s not needed the demonstration that government can walk over it s own rules in the name of justice has been made no problem by me noted and announced for the record just giving the govern ment it s due and getting back to more worthwhile non government concerns j stephen
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clinton background briefing in vancouver the white house office of the press secretary vancouver british columbia background briefing by senior administration officials april canada place vancouver british columbia a m pst folks we re about to start the background briefing on the aid package senior administration official good morning the president president clinton and president yeltsin agreed yesterday on a series of american initiatives to support economic and political reform in russia and it s valued at billion before taking your questions and running through the basic outlines of this package i want to make a few points first this is the maximum that the clinton administration can do with available funds to support russian reform all of the funds have been allocated and appropriated by the congress there is no need for the administration to go back to the congress to fund any of these programs all our fiscal year funds currently are available so in effect all of these programs can begin tomorrow the second point is that this package is designed to support russian reformers all of the initiatives in the package are directed at reformers and for their benefit and all have been worked out with prior consultation with the russian government third the president is determined that we will deliver on these commitments this year the package is designed to maximize our ability to support reform in designing it we wanted to avoid making commitments that we could not meet and we feel very confident that we can meet all of these commitments in front of you fourth i d like to note the special importance of trade and investment i think it s fair to say that russia s capital and technology needs throughout the next decade extend well into the hundreds of billions of dollars no collection of governments can meet those needs only the private sector can do so and so the president and president yeltsin agreed to make trade and investment a major priority in the relationship they also agreed that there would be a new joint commission on energy and space formed headed on the u s side by vice president gore on the russian side by prime minister chernomyrdin and the goal of this effort is to break through the barriers to trade and investment on both sides and to promote a vastly expanded relationship if it would be helpful i d be prepared to run down the first page which is a summary of u s assistance and just give you some general background on what these programs are i ll do it quickly and then i ll be glad to take questions the first group of initiatives are humanitarian food and medical assistance this is part of our effort which has been underway for several years to provide basic humanitarian grant food assistance so that the russian government can assure there s at least a minimal amount of bread on the shelves in the major cities that s million in grant that is from food for progress the grant portion of food for progress we ll also be continuing our grant assistance in medicines and pharmaceutical supplies and that s million the second item is concessional food sales as you know the united states has had a long term grain relationship with russia it s important to us and it s important to russia that we continue that relationship the president has chosen the food for progress program which is a concessional loan program the value over the next seven months is million these are concessional terms the exact terms have not been worked out but i think it s fair to say there will be a grace period on principal of six or seven years and concessional rates thereafter for the life of the deal the third program is a collection of private sector support we think this is one of the most important things we re going to do privatization and the creation of small businesses is the number one priority of the reform government in moscow and so the president has decided to create a russian american enterprise fund capitalized this year at million and the goal of this fund is to make direct loans to small businesses in russia to take equity positions in those businesses the president has also decided to create a privatization fund which would work directly with the russian government in its priority objective of trying to convert state enterprises from a state owned basis to a private basis he has also agreed the president has also agreed to establish a eurasia foundation this would be a private foundation led by prominent americans to fund democratization projects in russia the fourth grouping you see there in the summary page is democratization itself i think it s fair to say that this administration has given a new impetus to the goal of pursuing democratization in russia you see that we have a total of million in programs various programs the detailed tables give an indication of some of the programs that we re launching the president is also calling for the development of a democracy corps which will be an overarching umbrella group to try to incorporate all of the disparate private and public efforts now underway from the united states to support reform in russia the fifth program you see is russian office of resettlement this is a new initiative created and conceptualized by this administration this is a demonstration project what we d like to do is work with the russian military to help resettle russian officers returning from the baltic states and other parts of the former soviet union we want to make sure that we work out the best way to do that whether it s with russian labor and russian materials or using prefab american construction and so we ve decided to fund on a demonstration basis the construction of housing units we ll be working very closely with the russian military on this and i would say that we have a long term commitment to this project the sixth area is energy in the environment they are two issues that the president feels strongly about our initial efforts will be feasibility studies to look into the possibility of enhancing their energy production both oil and gas and equally important trying to cut down on the leakages in the oil and gas pipeline systems which cause so much environmental damage i ve talked a little bit about trade and investment about the new group being created that the vice president will chair on our side secretary ron brown will also be cochairing with deputy prime minister shohkin a business development committee which will work in all other sectors of the economy to break down the many barriers that currently exist and impede trade and investment we are also going to appoint a full time investment ombudsman in the american government to work on this problem full time and the point i d like to make here is trade and investment in the s is every bit as important to draw an analogy as arms reductions was in the s and s and we just thought that in looking at this we needed to make a commitment within our own government to have people work on it senior people on a full time basis because it is terribly important you ll notice that the united states is going to support russia s membership in the gatt russia has had observer status russia has requested our support and in fact requested our advice in becoming a member of the gatt we think that the long term goal of drawing russia into the global economy is paramount a very important goal and that is why we are supporting the membership in the gatt we are also supporting their access to gsp the generalized system of preferences you ll note that ex im has extended million in credit for a caterpillar deal in siberia that opic has extended million in credits and loan guarantees for a conoco oil project i d like to emphasize that we are very close to an agreement between russia and the united states for a billion framework facility through the ex im bank that would finance russian purchases of american oil and gas equipment and services we think this is a very important development we think we ll get there by april th which is the opening day of the tokyo conference the g conference before i take any further questions i d like to defer to my colleague who will review the security assistance objectives with you senior administration official our major unfinished agenda with the russians and with their counterparts in ukraine kazakhstan and belarus is in the area of the safe and secure dismantlement of the nuclear arsenals on their territory under the terms of the start i and start ii agreements recently we completed in moscow three i think very important agreements that devote a significant chunk of nunn lugar funding to three important programs the first is the program of million for the strategic nuclear delivery vehicle dismantlement program that is for submarines for icbm dismantlement and for bomber dismantlement million the second is a million tranche of funding for the construction of a facility to store nuclear materials removed from the warheads as they are dismantled this will essentially contribute to the overall design and the early phases of the construction of that storage facility and finally a million tranche of money to help in the establishment of a monitoring system for the nuclear materials as they are withdrawn from the weapons system so we add that million total to the extant nunn lugar assistance which has been flowing about million for some overall safety improvements for various kinds of equipment and safety measures that we have been working out with the russians over the last couple of years so this is an area where we will be going a lot more work with not only the russians but with the ukrainians kazhaks and belarussians belarus for example has just in the last couple of weeks received up to million in fy funds for safety security and dismantlement programs on belarussian territory and this was in the wake of their ratification of start i an agreement to accede to npt so we are working very hard with all the parties to the lisbon protocols and will continue to work very hard with them and i look upon these three recent agreements with russia as a very important step in that process q the opic funds to is that for the field in kazhakstan and conoco already signed this deal with kazhakstan why do you feel now it is necessary if it s the same one why do you feel it s necessary senior administration official it s not the same deal chevron signed a deal with kazhakstan the tenges oil field this is a new investment project it s a polar lights oil development and renovation project and it s being announced today so it s completely new q can you tell us more about what s involved senior administration official yes conoco like other american oil companies has been searching for ways to do two things one to prospect for new oil in siberia west siberia and two to try to get into the business of renovating oil wells and renovating pipelines both oil and gas in russia the objective here obviously is to take advantage of the natural resources in russia increase energy production which will in turn increase hard currency revenues which is what russia needs so we think this deal is very very good development for russia the russians do as well and it s good for an american company and the american government has played a leading role in pulling this together through the credit facility in opic and through the loan guarantee q so it s to search and also to renovate fields that are already there senior administration official that s right q on that point should other american companies expect to get administration support for such deals or should they now go to the ex im and try to get the money out of the billion senior administration official well as you know ex im is part of the u s government and various parts of the u s government have been pushing including the state department and the white house for this deal to be consummated and we think it will and if we arrive at this agreement by april th there will be billion in financing available for american companies to sell their equipment and sell their services q that should take up all of the rest of the deals and their won t be and their will or there won t be support for opic sort of deals such as this conoco senior administration official there s a tremendous amount of interest on the part of american oil and gas companies to invest in russia we think that the ex im oil and gas facility the billion facility once it is concluded will soak up a lot of that interest but i think the interest may even extend beyond that and if so the government will respond q what s the current year budget costs of that billion agreement should it go forward and is there any current year budget costs senior administration official i ll have to refer you to ex im for that i don t know the details of that q the concessional food sales is there any current year costs to that or is it delayed until the years in which the payments are due senior administration official the concessional food sales are from food for progress which is a usda program usda has the funds we don t need to go back to the congress to expend those funds there will be a hit in the budget i d refer you to usda and omb for the details on that q can you talk about the democracy corps q and the private sector how many folks are going to be involved in that senior administration official why don t i start with the democracy corps first i think the administration felt coming into office that there were literally thousands of organization private organizations in the united states that in one way or another were working at the goal of trying to achieve democratization in russia helping on a farmer to farmer basis and there were literally or u s government agencies that had a variety of programs in this area and so the administration felt the president felt it was important to try to draw all of these initiatives together under one group to give some coherence to the efforts and to give some impetus to the efforts and so this is a presidential initiative it will be headed by ambassador tom simons who will soon take up his duties as the coordinator for u s assistance in the former soviet union and we re very hopeful that we might use this democracy corps not only to draw upon the resources of our own government but the resources of the american private sector and schools and communities across the nation q any kind of commitment yet any kind of word yet on fy and any new money that needs to be appropriated besides the million the president talked about senior administration official the administration is requesting additional funds in fy of million what the president has done this weekend is to consult really intensively yesterday with president yeltsin about additional measures the united states could take in some of these areas to support reform he ll be consulting with the congress when he returns to washington he ll be consulting also with the other ally governments and we ll make a decision at that time q two questions about the billion agricultural money first of all i thought it was the sort of consensus that what russia did not need was more loans for food so why did you decide to do it that way secondly could you explain agriculture has been stopped from making further loans for food because of russia s inability to pay how does this fit into that situation senior administration official as you know the united states for a long time has been a major supplier of grains and food commodities agricultural products to russia i think between and we had extended a little bit of history here about billion in credits credit guarantees through the commodity credit corporation that was the principal vehicle to ensure the sale of american grain products on december of last year the russian government stopped its payments on that program they are now in arrears to us on that program and therefore by law the united states cannot continue that program and so the president working with secretary espy and other officials in the cabinet looked for other ways that we could promote american grain sales and i think we have two ways to do that we ve announced today million in grant food assistance through the food for progress program but we do not have sufficient authority to spend million in grant food and so we looked for a concessional loan program i think everybody agrees that russia that a short term loan program for russia would not make sense now but a long term concessional loan program would and that is what this program is it will provide once the final details are worked out for a six to seven year grace period on payments of principal and then from years seven through which is the life of the deal it will provide for concessional rates of interest generally around three to four percent and so we believe and the russian government believes this is a good deal for them because it will avoid the imperative of early payments and put them into the out years but it will also continue this very important grain relationship which is important for them and it s important for the american farm community q i gather from what you say that this could make it explicit the russians failure to pay the interest on ecc loan does not in any way affect this kind of loan going through is that right senior administration official let me be explicit about that we are prevented under the law to from continuing the commodity credit corporation short term credit program because of russia s arrearages to the united states all of you know about those arrearages they total about i think around million usda can give you an exact figure so having taken that into consideration and wanting to preserve american market share and a long term grain relationship wanting to respond to a specific request from the russian government for major food assistance knowing that we couldn t take it from the grant programs because we don t have sufficient authority there we looked at food for progress which is a program we ve used to great effect in other parts of the world and we consulted with the russian government and arrived at this solution i think the russians are pleased because it provides them with the food but also gives them a little bit of relief on the short term payments q where do those funds actually come from senior administration official they come from the food for progress program which is a program under usda s authority usda has the authority to spend these funds we do not need to go back to the congress for these funds and i want to make that general point again everything in this package the billion package comprises funds that have already been allocated and appropriated by the congress the administration can begin to spend these monies tomorrow and it s very important in our eyes that we expend all the funds this year that we meet these commitments and we are confident we ll be able to do so q how did you arrive at the figure of million does that max out that program or did you actually have a range from to senior administration official there s a reason for it the reason was that the russian government told us that s about the amount of grain that they needed between now and harvest time and so the idea is that we would begin the shipments probably million per month from now until the harvest in the autumn at which time russia won t require the same level of food imports from the west q i would imagine there s going to be some considerable envy and jealousy on the part of some of the other republics because of the size and the scope of this with russia have you given any consideration to advancing negotiations for the same kinds of projects with the ukraine with georgia with some of the other republics senior administration official yes we re very conscience of the fact that we also have an interest in extending american support to the other countries of the former soviet union we have told ourselves and we have planned that in the area of technical assistance the grant technical assistance that you see roughly percent of the funding will go to russia and roughly percent to the other countries in the area of food sales we have been active with ukraine in grant food assistance with georgia and armenia we will continue that and i think it s fair to say that after this summit we will go back and look at all of our programs with the other countries to ensure that they are adequate and they are productive and they re hard hitting q has anything happened at the summit to lead american energy companies and other companies to believe that russia is going to be more user friendly toward them in terms of taxing legalities bureaucracy senior administration official well one of our primary objectives coming into this summit was to highlight not only the economic agenda but also trade and investment and i d like to refer to the point i made at the beginning we re convinced in talking about this problem the problem of how to support russia long term we re convinced that no collection of western governments have the financial resources over the next decade to fuel the continuation of reform that only the private sector can do that we look at our own society and we see tremendous capability in resources in the oil and gas sector it is a very good match with what the russians need now which is financial investment in the existing oil and gas wells and pipeline and new technology and new capital to finance new production that s what the russian government has told us it wants to do and so that s why we have made such a major emphasis on it that s why trade and investment was a prominent issue on the first day of these talks and in fact figured prominently last night in the meeting between president yeltsin and president clinton and we re hoping that together we might send a strong signal to the american business community that we support their efforts to invest in russia that the united states through ex im and opec and the department of commerce will be there to support them q my question is is yeltsin in any position to deliver on making russia a more senior administration official we think he is i would note that president yeltsin s prime minister mr chernomyrdin worked for years in the russian oil and gas sector he will now chair a high level commission with the vice president vice president gore to try to break through the barriers that currently exist to western investment in the oil and gas sector we believe we have a commitment to make that committee an important committee and we re looking forward to the work q what type of mechanism is already in place to administer the private sector portion of the program and will the u s be directly involved in the tail end of distribution of the actual funds or is the money simply turned over to the russian government for distribution at their will senior administration official are you talking about the variety of programs listed here it depends on the program itself in most cases though we are either working through american pbos or american government agencies to ensure that the money obviously is well spent that the money gets to the intended source that s an obligation we have to the congress to ensure the money is well spent and that we can account for the money we have done that in the last couple of months intensively and we will continue to do it for each of these programs but they are all quite different for instance in the area of grant food and medical assistance for grant food it is carried out through usda and usda accounts for the delivery of the food for grant medical assistance we ve been working through project hope which is a private organization for the housing for instance the resettlement of russian officers we ll be working with a group of american pbos on some of the democratization projects we re working directly with russian private individuals and private foundations we re working with journalists in russia on a media project that you may have noticed so we literally have here to different activities under all these rubrics and they re all going to be carried out in slightly different ways some directly with the russian government some with russian citizens q the jackson vanik restrictions that remain and on the cocom restrictions that remain can you tell us what the president has to do on that senior administration official well as george noted yesterday president yeltsin raised these as irritants in the relationship the president has noted that i think it s fair to say we will go back now in our own government when we return to washington and look at both of these questions and we ll get back to the russian government q you were not prepared for these questions when you got here senior administration official we were prepared for these questions we ve looked at them but we re not prepared to make a quick decision this weekend they require let me just explain particularly on jackson vanik they require consultation with the congress they require consultation with the american jewish community and we re very sensitive to those concerns and so we ll want to go back and talk to them before we take any action q is this package designed so that you will not have to go to congress for anything at this point senior administration official as i said at the beginning the advantage of this particular package is that all the funds have been allocated and appropriated by the congress so the administration will not have to go back to the congress to seek any additional authority to fund any of these efforts in effect they can all begin tomorrow and i know that many of the agencies responsible for these projects will begin tomorrow and that s the advantage of this particular initiative q if this as the president says is a long term long haul thing and members of congress are at this moment heading for moscow why aren t you talking about going to congress and suggesting to the president of russia that you are prepared to go to congress for various things senior administration official i think we ve been clear about that the president is discussing this weekend with president yeltsin some additional ideas that we have for american funding of additional projects and ideas that he has we have a major congressional delegation that left last night headed by representative gephardt and we ll want to consult with that delegation and other members of congress before doing anything and we ll also want to consult with our allies so that s where it stands now q we ve been told repeatedly that a number of these items represent different or new ways of spending the money already appropriated could you just tick off which of these items represents reprogramming or at least spending money in ways that it was not previously set to be senior administration official i think that we ve said that these are all projects that either congress had allocated money for through the freedom support act there were some funds that were left over from fy and this administration took office and had some new ideas about how the funds might be expended we didn t use just the freedom support act funds or the fy funds we went into some of the agency allocations ex im opic and usda and tried to look for creative ways to further our programs and example of that is the food for progress concessional loans we had hit a brick wall with another type of funding through usda we could not go forward legally and so we looked for a more creative way to ensure continued american market share and ensure continued grain sales and we think we found it q where for example are you getting the money for this russian officer resettlement senior administration official that s from the freedom support act funds q in other words all of the money is being directly spent in new ways so to speak senior administration official most of the grant projects that you see if you look at the general chart the second chart it s broken down into grant and credits and if you look under grants the technical cooperation projects that total million that is almost all freedom support act funding a little bit of it is leftover funds from fiscal year the nunn lugar funds of course you know about the legislative history of those funds q cooperation senior administration official from fy i don t have the exact figure it was not a considerable figure q could you tell us please has anything happened here this weekend that will break the log jam between ukraine and russia over start for start i and ii as a result of what s happened here senior administration official both presidents president yeltsin and president clinton will be discussing this issue this morning in fact we haven t yet gotten to security and arms control related issues that will be this morning s session i know that president clinton will be very strongly reinforcing that this is a top priority for us we ve been talking to the russians and the ukrainians over the last couple of weeks about ways that we might help to facilitate the discussions between them up to this point this has been a very important negotiation that s been going on essentially between moscow and kiev and we are at the point now of essentially discussing with them if there are ways that we could contribute to this discussion help to move things forward essentially but in terms of what is coming out of this weekend i don t yet know in a couple hours we ll know q just a follow up on the financing here is any of this robbing peter to pay boris since it s all current year appropriations have you taken it from anyplace that s been earmarked and put it into this fund senior administration official there are smoke and mirrors here and i think it s an important point to note we could have given you a page of assistance numbers that included out year funding we re going to make a long term commitment to many of these projects for instance the enterprise funds the privatization effort the housing effort and we ve already talked to the russians about our long term commitment we could have put in really big numbers and this could have been a bigger package but we wanted to make a point this package is fy it s funds that we have and we re going to do what we say we re going to do and the president feels very strongly about that in the past there is a legacy that the western governments the combination of governments put up large budget figures and for any number of reasons we re not able to meet them we re determined and the president is determined to carry out every single program in this package and we ll do it but we do have a longer term commitment and that s part of the discussions on economics this weekend we re looking for russian ideas on what it is we can do to most effectively support reform and we ve told them that we do have a commitment on some of these programs beyond this fiscal year q taken it way from any senior administration official no we haven t okay the question is have we reprogrammed any of these funds so have we taken it from other countries to pay for programs in russia the answer is no we have not done so q in terms of funding there is no available monies left and you simply find a creative way to find money somewhere else doesn t that in fact support the theory senior administration official not at all i don t think it does that s a particular example and the example is grain sales the commodity credit corporation credit guarantee program was short term loans that russia had to pay back within to months you all know about russia s debt problem and russia was unable to meet those commitments so we looked for a way to do two things to meet russia s requirement for grain they re a net grain importer on a massive scale and also meet our objective of making sure that the american farmers have a chance to sell their products to russia and we simply look for another way to finance that and we have legislative authority to do it this program has been successful in other areas we had not tried it before in the former soviet union but we thought we should now q isn t this really the bush clinton aid package for russia since these funds were really first derived by initiatives put forward by president bush senior administration official no i don t think that s a fair characterization a lot of these funds were appropriated by the u s congress is in this administration took office and inherited some obligations that the bush administration had made but we had a long six to seven week review of this program we decided to meet the commitments that had been made by the previous administration but we have gone well beyond them in funding the enterprise fund which was just an idea but the idea had not been filled out with a program there was no number attached to it in grouping together some projects and trying to make them into a coherent whole in the privatization effort i would say is another clinton initiative further we listened to the russian government and listened to the russian military who told us that the resettlement of their officers was important to them for political and economic and social reasons and president clinton has responded to that and we are making a long term commitment that beyond this demonstration project we re going to figure out a way to do much more in trying to settle those officers i would also say that the president has given impetus to all of us in the agencies to think much more broadly about what it is we can do on democratization because there we have some experience and some comparative advantage that lends itself to the russian experience and in calling for the creation of a democracy corps which is another new initiative we re hopeful that we can take the resources of the private sector as well as the american government to achieve that objective so i would not characterize it that way at all and as most of you know i am a career civil servant i was in the last administration i m very familiar with what the last administration did and i would characterize this as a clinton assistance package for russia q there s been a lot of criticism that aid in the past has not gotten to the people is there anything in this outside of the ombudsman that will guarantee that this money will not just disappear because it s being administered by the russian government senior administration official i think that i know that the president and other senior officials of our government are concerned that american money be spent wisely and that it get to the source that it s intended for which it s intended and so we re going to take great care aid and the state department will take great care in making sure that the funds are expended properly and that they re reaching their source i would not that this package is not simply a package of support solely to the russian government some of these projects especially in democratization and exchanges are going to be worked out directly with russian private individuals with businesses the private enterprise support is another example of that senior administration official if i could just add a word on this point with regard to the ssd related programs one area that we ve been looking at very very closely is consideration of actually using russian firms in subcontracting for these kinds of programs they would be working very closely of course with the american firms who would be the prime contractors but this is a fine example i think of a more of a imaginative and flexible approach toward getting some of that funding down to the grassroots level down to the ground in russia but at the same time ensuring that it is spent efficiently and for the purposes for which it was intended q when would the democracy corps start exactly when do you see this happening how would get it off the ground senior administration official well the president is today calling for the creation of a democracy corps i think it s fair to say that we re going to work out its framework over the next couple of weeks ambassador simons takes up his duties on may st but in effect we ve already started because over the last couple of weeks the administration has begun to reach out to people in the private sector who have come to us asking us to help facilitate their activities in russia and we ve said that we will be helpful we ve also tried to kind of coordinate in a much more effective way the activities of our own government we do have or agencies that are active in russia in one way or another we think it makes sense to draw them together and to focus their efforts q excuse me how much of this billion will actually be spent in the united states by american made goods senior administration official i don t have any figures for you now but perhaps we could try to work something up in the next couple of days on that q this figure is larger than the figure that has been in the press did this program grow yesterday as a result of the discussions or have we just been that far off the mark senior administration official no i think unfortunately the press has been a little bit off the mark and i m sorry to say that no this package president clinton put us to work about seven weeks ago on this package and he was briefed intensively on this he contributed a lot of the intellectual leadership in this package he contributed a lot of the ideas in the package and i think it s fair to say that we had this rough package worked out about two weeks ago we have been refining it ever since we spent a couple of days last week going over it with the russian government both the embassy in washington and the government in moscow through our own embassy and so it s been evolving but this particular package has been together for about two weeks q where is yeltsin s input into this then there was so much talk before about the president wanted to get yeltsin s views about specifically what was needed and so forth is that in the out years senior administration official no it s both president yeltsin has on several occasions told us for instance that support for the creation of private businesses is important to him that the resettlement of russian military officers is important and that first and foremost the effort to privatize the state industries is important to them and so what we did was to try to make those the centerpiece of our technical assistance part o the package we listened to him on the privatization effort we have been working with the russian government for months on this trying to work out all the details so the russian government on most of these programs was involved every step of the way but let me get at the other part of your question the president is also using this weekend to talk about a broader set of initiatives that we might undertake and we re looking for his ideas the president has brought his own ideas to the table for instance on energy and the environment and in housing but we re looking for russian ideas not we need to consult with the congress and we need to consult with the other allied governments that are also active q there s essentially nothing that happened in the last day and a half that measurably altered the package that you came in with senior administration official this particular package as i said was worked out and was ready about two weeks ago we have since then consulted with the russian government on the final stages of its development and so this weekend we ve primarily talked about future about what more the united states and other western countries can do to support reform in russia which is our base objective here q i noticed that you that money appropriated to train bankers and businessmen and officers can you tell me what about job training for workers who are displaced by privatization senior administration official you re right we have a program to train russian young russians in banking and financial services in the united states part of the housing initiative it s not just to build housing units it s to retrain russian officers who are retiring into other professions q money for job training for workers whose jobs are disappearing because of privatization senior administration official we have not yet allocated any money for that q why not q of the million is going to build housing units isn t that a lot of money per unit given what the western dollar will buy in the former soviet union senior administration official if you want to do housing the right way it s not just the building the framework of a house you ve got to think about all the utilities you ve got to think about the purchase of land you ve got to think about sewage and gas and electricity and so forth and it s also retraining it s not enough to put retired an officer coming out of riga or tallin or vilnius in a house in western russia we think we have an obligation to try to retrain those officers as well this is responding to a request from the russian government q of the million will go to retrain senior administration official that s right q are you talking about apartment buildings or single senior administration official we re talking about single individual dwellings q you re saying that only families will be served by this senior administration official what i want to i thought i pointed out earlier this is a demonstration project what we didn t want to do given the experience that the germans and the turks and the italians have had in building housing in western russian we did not want to leap into it with a huge amount of money what we want to do is work over the next couple of months and try to figure out with american organizations in the private sector the best way to get this job done i noted that we have a long term commitment to that and so i would expect that we would put a lot more money into this in the future but we want to do it wisely we want to spend the money wisely q what is it about this program that convinces you that it will protect russia s reforms and that russia will be in a position to may back the money they re supposed to pay back especially considering their other debt problem senior administration official well look i think it s important to note that the united states on its own does not have the capability to fuel a continuation of russian reform it s got to be a collective western effort and we re looking to our allies to do more as well but beyond that it s really what the russians do that is going to decide the fate of reform we can simply play a role and we feel we have an obligation to do so which is consistent with our national interests q did the president say that the value of the u s contribution was that it would create security and prosperity for the united states so what is it about this program that does this senior administration official i think you have to go back to the fundamental objective of our policy toward russia and that is we want to do everything we can to support the continuation of reform we are convinced that if reformers stay in power then we ll be able to continue the drawdown of nuclear forces foreign policy cooperation and economic interaction which are the three benefits to the united states from reform in russia so it s not a simple question you can t just say that this program is the answer it s a long term question and we have to make a long term commitment to it q and then on the question of russia s ability to repay what convinces you they ll be able to pay seven to years from now senior administration official well the russian government has made a commitment to repay and what we re hoping is that if reform continues and if they can continue to improve their oil and gas sector and earn additional hard currency revenues that russia will be in a position six or seven years from now to pay back those loans q substantial government to government loan we ve ever gotten into with the russians senior administration official i don t want to answer authoritatively on that i don t go back or years on this but in the last four or five years yes it is because the previous way that we financed grain exports was really to just ensure private bank loans this is a different type of effort q government loans in any other sector that you recall i know it wasn t done in senior administration official i think it s fair to say this is a new and unique effort end a m pdt
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re supply side economic policy was re david stockman in article ufk gqu wbke cx v andrew cmu edu ashish arora ashish andrew cmu edu writes excerpts from netnews sci econ apr re supply side economic po by not a boomer desire wrig the deficits declined from reaching a low of of gnp before the tax and spending hike of reversed the trend brett is this true some more details would be appreciated yes sadly this is true the primary reason and the essence of the details that you are seeking is that the grahm rudman budget controls were working in fact they were working so well that unless the feds did something they were going to have to start cutting pork so bush and the democrats got together in a budget summit and replaced grahm rudman with the now historic grand compromise in which bush consented to raise taxes in exchange for certain caps on spending increases as it turned out the taxes killed the reagan expansion and the caps on spending increases were dispelled by clinton in his first act as president so that he could create his own new plan with more tax increases the result is that clinton now hopes to reduce the deficit to a level above where it was when reagan left office chew on that awhile
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re damn furriners be taken over in article apr romulus rutgers edu kaldis romulus rutgers edu theodore a kaldis writes in article pa pt r access digex com hess access digex com paul hess writes that drag the us down and cause problems at home and abroad rank balderdash america s reputation abroad has become tarnished because of feckless and pusillanimous cowards who apparently do not have the requisite gonads to stand up for american honor and dignity don t be ridiculous kaldis i suggest you give the ugly american concept which i can easily see you demonstrating a good hard second look the american way is not the only way it s not necessarally the best way and it is incredibly arrogant to even think that the american way may not be the only way and you may not consider it to be necessarily the best way but by god it s our way and we re going to stick with it if you can t go along with the program then perhaps you should consider moving elsewhere dear god didn t this die out in the fifties with mccarthy and the blacklists i ve spent quite a bit of time in different provinces of canada and let me tell you it is very refreshing to spend time with people who are not full of arrogant nationalism and empty patriotism that is exactly the problem with canadians they don t stand for anything with certitude didn t your mother ever teach you not to generalize i am a canadian and i stand up for too many things with too much certitude the canadians i know well enough to say this about seem to have a great deal of pride in their provinces and their country but they aren t blinded by flags and ideals like many americans are could this be because they are bereft of ideals uh huh this must explain the world reknowned record low american crime rate i see now it s all becoming so clear to me well i ve said too much yes you have no he hasn t but i was so angered by your words that i felt i had to say something sorry to intrude you pipsqueak you mouse if you are sorry to intrude then why do it don t you have the courage of your convictions hell do you even have any convictions to start with what kind of example of manly dignity is this sheesh remarkable audacity and misguidance what you take for your own courage sir is nothing more than simple loud mouthedness coupled with unrestrained bragging please allow me to introduce myself sympathy i m a man of wealth and taste for the devil i ve been around for long long years the laibach stolen many a man s soul and faith remixes
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re stop putting down white het males from baba tymnet com duane hentrich btw i m a walc white aryan lapsed catholic d baba duane m hentrich baba tymnet com i would like to go on record as objecting to mr hentrich calling himself an aryan the word aryan is of sanskrit origin and occurs first in the hindu scripture the rigveda it seems to have been a tribal term but may have had connotations of good character such connotations are quite explicit in the sayings of the buddha who called his religion the eightfold aryan path the word was borrowed by the german scholar max mueller who used it as a synonym for indo european but then the nazis proceeded to steal it and started pretending that aryan is synonymous with nordic which seems highly unlikely the people who originally called themselves aryas the iranians noprth indians the afghans and possibly the kurds are none of them nordic so the use of the word by westerners though meant with apparent good humor in this case is nontheless inappropriate the only westerners who may have some claim to call themselves aryans by descent are the celts who seem to have wor shipped a god called aryaman who is mentioned in the rigveda if you want to check what i am saying look at mallory s book in search of the indo europeans or just look at the encyclopedia britannica the reason this usage is offensive is that most of ancient indian literature as well as religion is directly or inderectly due to the aryans and for westerners to butt in is really not nice not to mention the horrible things done by germans to jews using a word to which the germans have no clear claim rohit parikh
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re celebrate liberty rich thompson posts some blather about the libertarian party august sept everything you always wanted to know about winning elections but didn t know where to ask what pray tell do the libertarians know about winning elections bob robert w mcgwier n hy ccr p ida org center for communications research interests amateur radio astronomy golf princeton n j asst scoutmaster troop hightstown
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re celebrate liberty narrative narrative narrative c b
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re top ten comments overheard in the secret service lounge in article phgakinn pb apache dtcc edu bob hobbes dtcc edu bob rahe writes in article apr colorado edu ajteel dendrite cs colorado edu a j teel writes ed they are losing their humor please take a break until they get funny again if that is even possible i liked a few of these but that list is not even sarcastic just insulting and definitely not one of your best i look forward to some better lists after a sabatical ajteel dendrite cs colorado edu no they must be working they are getting lots of these complaints that they are not funny keep em coming it they weren t funny or bothering them they d just ignore them if a six year old child does a funny trick and you say well done he will do it again and it may be funny then they may repeat it over and over again bu you still have to pretend its funny even though it isn t any more once they are older than six you expect them to realise that doing the same thing over and over again isn t funny any more basicaly ed fails to be amusing because he is merely crass he does not make jokes that have any political content beyond attempting to ridicule their target calling someone slick willie is not funny even if you put on a red nose while you say it it was a good debating point used on the spur of the moment months ago but now its use merely demonstrates that the user couldn t think of anything original to say in the uk there is a tradition of old retired colnels who bore the dinner guests rigid with their descriptions of old campagns ed is clearly one of this type of people who fails to see when a joke is spent phill hallam baker
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re debating special hate crimes laws was how many homosexuals in article pmrakinnpun senator bedfellow mit edu wdstarr athena mit edu william december starr writes if someone beats up a homosexual he should get charged for assault and battery why must we add gay bashing to the list isn t this a sort of double jeopardy or am i just being a fascist again douglas meier assuming the questions are not rhetorical the answers are to deter an epidemic of gay bashing that has not been deterred by assault laws no it is not double jeopardy a single act may lead to multiple charges and multiple crimes yes let s leave aside the personal insult potential that doug created by asking his last question and just concentrate on the legal political debate last point first yes a single act may lead to multiple independent charges however as a side note i think that the prohibition on double jeopardy mandates that the suspect be tried on all those charges at the same time in the same trial unless of course the government can pull the separate sovereignties crock that they re using on those four lapd cops who arrested rodney king i e trying a person who s already been acquitted in state court on federal charges arising from the same act i think that this is double jeopardy but apparently the courts don t agree with me note that the laws that don t agree with you were passed to protect a class of people who couldn t get justice from the state courts specifically civil rights workers in missisippi in the s the federal protection of individual rights supersedes the non feasance of the state something similar has long been traditional well he s queer so i beat him up for gays you pays your money and you takes your pick me i lean strongly towards the against argument i know that having the law treat everyone as equals regardless of realities will not in and of itself lead to true equality and in fact may lead at times towards greater inequality nonetheless i believe that true equality is at least possible when the laws treat people as being equal while true equality is by definition impossible when the laws themselves mandate unequal treatment of classes of people by the state william december starr wdstarr athena mit edu as anatole france said the law in its impartial majesty forbids the rich as well as the poor from sleeping under bridges equality of law can be construed in any number of ways for example the fact that all property thefts regardless of value are not punished equally is an inequality which protects those who have a lot of money from having it stolen you could easily define equality to regard the property in terms of it s significance for the owner this would a form of equality that would be skewed toward poorer people in fact most anti gay bashing laws are constructed to offer equal protection they make it an offense to damage people based on a motivation of hatred for sexual orientation thus the law in its impartial majesty protects hets as well as gays from being bashed i m sure that s a great relief to douglas meier nick nussbaum nickn eskimo com po seattle wa
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email does anyone have prez clinton s e mail address thanks a lot
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re i thought commercial advertising was not allowed in article c ske ft voder nsc com matt galaxy nsc com matt freivald x writes in article in talk politics misc decay cbnewsj cb att com dean kaflowitz in article c rt t ewp voder nsc com matt galaxy nsc com matt freivald x writes is an unborn child a human being at any point during pregnency in my opinion at all points during the pregnancy it is human you ll have to define what you mean by human being for me to answer the question as put a parallel q is a person of color a human being a you ll have to define what you mean by human being to answer your irrelevant question yes a person of color is human but i still don t know what you mean by human being and you have merely begged the question without responding by trying to inject the notion of race into the discussion you muddy the waters without adding any insight whatever the same parallel question could be is a polydactyl person a human being you still have not answered what you mean by human being please do so i would suggest that legal precedent defines a human being i e a person whose rights are protected by the constitution and the law as someone with a functioning brain could you cite some of those precedents for me or the basis of this definition while the law does allow the removal of extraordinary means of sustaining life in cases of brain death this in itself does not lead to your conclusion of how the law defines a human being however at least you defined human being in a tenuous fashion that is a person whose rights are protected by the constitution and the law for my answer to your question i refer you to roe v wade and subsequent supreme court decisions which define to what extent a fetus is protected by the constitution and the law certain judges have concurred that slavery is not a violation of human rights therefore it is not you won t answer the question and instead drag in irrelevancies if you want a definition of human being that does not depend on the vagaries of law but holds solid whatever the law may rule provide it for me i would suggest that your blind faith would not likely hold up if the shoe were on the other foot the brain life death paradigm is one that i suggest as one consistent with other legal definitions it clearly doesn t matter to you whether an unborn child has any rights or not however so the point is lost on you more irrelevancies as larry margolis pointed out the law has made special exceptions in order to include fetuses but does not follow your version of human being and as he pointed out brain death is not a means of determining who has the rights of the living but rather who has died there is a significant difference what i am wondering now is has your argument so failed you that you feel it necessary to drag out irrelevancies and leave the thread you started you got answers to your questions when you began baiting me if you recall after you had made some ridiculous remarks about adrienne regard and having been corrected changed the subject with your remarks about having a discussion of substance if you really wanted a discussion of substance why then do you disregard logic and substance in order to toss silly accussations e g it really doesn t matter to you if it matters to you then why not define human being and seek some substance you re not going to convince a logical person of the rightness of your position unless you apply some logic and show some meaning to your words if she is then why does the mother have the right to kill her when she is in the womb but not after she has passed through the birth canal because a woman has a right to have any object which threatens her health and is within the confines of her body removed the other side of the argument would give rights to the fetus that would not be granted to an adult human if for example you were occupying the body of another for whatever reason or through whatever means the reason and means being irrelevant that other would be able to remove or have you removed if that removal required your demise i see no reason in law that such a removal could not be effected rather than examining a hypothetical thought experiment let us examine a real though rare situation siamese twins if one siamese twin has the other surgically removed knowing that it will cause death and barring some emergency where they will both die anyway it is murder is it have you any support for this assertion furthermore your analogy is completely inapplicable siamese twins have an equal claim to any body parts they have in common try again what establishes this equal claim beyond your assertion if it is merely a matter of which came first cannot one kill the other since they both have equal claim what if one has more motor control than the other does that establish a superior claim as others point out one is sacrificed for the other depending on which has the better chance at survival again your analogy fails not precedence but possession makes a difference here a woman s womb is indisputably her own also i see you ignore my statement that you would grant rights to a fetus that would not be granted a born human being was that due to its inconvenience you see the right to life is granted to adult humans in the same sense as it should be to the foetus at some point prior to birth are siamese twins ever separated in the womb or is this right you assert for siamese twins which i don t even think is true as stated or valid as an analogy one that exists after birth freivald your entire argument here is a failure interesting way of trying to combine two essentially orthogonal concepts the point is that it is murder for one siamese twin to kill the other regardless of their status of physiological dependence or interdependence is it please cite a precedent and the basis of the ruling it would be difficult for one siamese twin to kill the other inside the womb and even if it were possible i doubt that a case could be made for premeditation or neglegence note the use of the phrase it should be in my post you simply assert things without any support your analogy is not accurate and your assertions are unsupported try this on for size it is not murder for one siamese twin to kill the other in the womb there we now have equal arguments but the idea is illogical for one siamese twin to kill the other in the womb would likely be to kill itself as well the systems are dependent on each other for life i m still struggling to see anything analagous here and failing to do so of course the situation is not a perfect comparison it may well be that one siamese twin deliberately initiates oppression or coersion against the other this is clearly not the case with an unborn child and this last statement from you is a total non sequitur the comparison is far worse than you give it credit for are you going to let this assertion stand on its own also or do you plan on following up with a reasoned argument your argument is from fantasy island your comparison is a total failure as i have demonstrated already and has no basis in reality neither legally nor medically and for you to assert that it is not a perfect comparison because of the impossible that of coercion or oppression is ridiculous as i said you give the analogy too little credit for failure on the one hand you start this by saying you want to take a real rather than a hypothetical situation then you fly off into siamese twins murdering one another in the womb or coercing or oppressing each other in the womb when the reality of the situation you describe in now way matches your version as i said before decisions are made regarding which twin lives and dies in situations where they cannot both survive and furthermore as i have already said there is a difference between an equal claim to organs and a claim that is unequal you seem to be asserting that a fetus has a claim on a woman s womb when the fetus is born what happens to its claim and by what reason do you assert its claim if a parent has the right to choose to not take responsibility for their own child why are there laws and penalties against child abandonment this last question is irrelevant and something of a non sequitur can you establish some relevance or even some sense for it if at some point an unborn child is a human being the parents clearly have the same responsibilities toward her as any other parents have toward their children again what is the relevance you have established no sense of when that point is you ignore the significant difference between a fetus and a born child the dependence of a born child can be transferred to another party while that of a fetus cannot a born child does not live within the body of another human being while a fetus does thereby representing potential and often actual harm to that body as in the case of one of our talk abortion participants who suffers from epilepsy and to whom pregnancy represents a significant health risk or as in the case of a woman i know who chose to continue her pregnancy but spent her entire pregnancy confined to a wheelchair and suffering great pain from constriction of some nerve and your argument is not an argument against abortion generally but at best an argument against abortion at some time during the course of pregnancy again a quest for common ground most of the pro choice people i have spoken to in person none of them pro abortion activists concede that the child has a right to life at some point that supersedes all of the mother s rights except that of her own life as is often the case in emotionally charged issues the activists have a very different outlook from the mainstream you haven t answered the question the situations are not analagous the dependence of a born child is not transferred instantaneously it takes time and effort incidentally it is the pro choice side not me arguing that the government should make it easy for parents to abandon their children to the state again you avoid the question dependence can be transferred and it is not as slow as you seem to think as to the anecdotal evidence of real human tragedy there is ample on both sides i would hate to be in the position of the mother in nyc who has to tell her daughter that she lost her arm in a botched abortion attempt yes and i d hate to have been the one to tell dr gunn s children that he was murdered by a religious pro life fanatic please do try to stay relevant the kindest thing i can say about these responses of yours is that i can see you are trying to say something but the result is a mish mash of negligible value sez you clever comeback i congratulate you on the readiness of your wit in article in talk politics misc decay cbnewsj cb att com dean kaflowitz writes ground covered in another post deleted if at some point an unborn child is a human being the parents clearly have the same responsibilities toward her as any other parents have toward their children and no parent can be forced to supply bodily resources toward their children even if necessary to save the child s life as was this to make it painfully clear you are not obligated to donate a kidney to save your child s life under law again the confusion between action deliberately taking away the life of a child and inaction refusing to run out in front of a bus to save a child what happened to that claim to bodily organs where life is at stake why does this parent now have an indisputable right to his or her kidney when previously the parent did not by your standards what is different about the two situations i see i have to spell this out for you since the meaning was too subtle for you in the one case you do not recognize a difference between a fetus and a born child you ask why a born child cannot be abandoned but a fetus can and in this case you recognize a significant difference between the fetus and born child where the lives of the two are at stake you can t have it both ways action and inaction are irrelevant to the principle but you are wrong about the inaction anyway ask any of the numerous women who post here and have borne children how inactive their pregnancy was to have a healthy live child a woman does more than hang out eat as she chooses plays volleyball like she always did drinks at parties with her friends etc she behaves very differently and the provision of her resources to a fetus may be no more voluntary than the beating of her heart but it is far from inactive dean kaflowitz
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re i thought commercial advertising was not allowed in article c sma gk voder nsc com matt galaxy nsc com matt freivald x writes in article in talk politics misc margoli watson ibm com larry margolis writes i would suggest that legal precedent defines a human being i e a person whose rights are protected by the constitution and the law as someone with a functioning brain no if you want to use legal precedent you should take a look at the model penal code on which many states base their criminal code my apologies if i was unclear i was not trying to start a statutory debate since there are many in some cases conflicting statutes on the books i was merely suggesting a paradigm that might make sense for a pro choicer imho cite one of these conflicting statutes you keep making these assertions but you haven t supported any of them yet i am speaking of statutes that conflict with the definition larry posted why did you delete the code that larry posted also the model penal code made perfect sense to me were you perhaps confused by it also i am still looking for your definition the one you used clearly indicates that a fetus is not a human being this is not likely to please either pro lifers or pro choicers but it is pretty clear from the legal medical concept of brain death brain death is a method of deciding when a known person is legally dead there s no analogous concept of brain birth i have just coined it you may object to the paradigm but it would make our treatment of human life statutorily consistent circular arguments are usually very consistent if a parent has the right to choose to not take responsibility for their own child why are there laws and penalties against child abandonment this last question is irrelevant and something of a non sequitur can you establish some relevance or even some sense for it if at some point an unborn child is a human being the parents clearly have the same responsibilities toward her as any other parents have toward their children and no parent can be forced to supply bodily resources toward their children even if necessary to save the child s life there is a confusion here between action and inaction a parent does not have to run out in front of a bus to save their child s life either but a parent is required to feed his children again your desire for consistency disappears when it does not suit your needs the principle of protecting life is abandoned based on action versus inaction not much of a principle suddenly you recognize that the claim on bodily resources is dependent on circumstances other than this principle of life that s a very conevnient principle you have there matt dean kaflowitz
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re top ten comments overheard in the secret service lounge in article c cli g dscomsa desy de hallam zeus desy de writes in article phgakinn pb apache dtcc edu bob hobbes dtcc edu bob rahe writes in the uk there is a tradition of old retired colnels who bore the dinner guests rigid with their descriptions of old campagns ed is clearly one of this type of people who fails to see when a joke is spent you are hereby authorized not to laugh by special dispensation of her hillariness this offer void where prohibited by law consumer must pay applicable sales tax bob rahe delaware tech comm college aids drugs abortion internet bob hobbes dtcc edu don t liberals just kill you ci genie bob rahe save whales and kill babies
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re hard times investments was no subject given in a previous article riggs descartes etl army mil bill riggs says i don t believe in the wave theory you don t have to it believes in you horses she keeps telling me that inflation is coming back and to lock in my fixed rate mortgage as low as possible well looking at our new government pals i m inclined to agree i don t much believe in our money either maybe you d like to invest in some foreign currency oh ho ho if only you knew yup i m definitely checking out foreign currency thanks to to this newsgroup it sure doesn t take much thinking to realize what direction the u s is headed sigh speculators never learn oh ho ho speculator me no no i m going with a sure thing sure as bust in california real estate
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re top ten responses to ed s top ten lists in a previous article mconners magnus acs ohio state edu michael r conners says in article c zreh c s news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby write s the real question should the feds bail out steve jobs next a la chrysler so that important manufacturing jobs wouldn t be lost no the real question should the feds bail out ibm a la chrysler so that important k manufacturing jobs wouldn t be lost it could be part of the jobs bill
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haiti aids hiv immigrants in case you missed it on the news the first haitians of many that tested positive for hiv and were being held on a base in cuba have been flown to the u s further a u s judge has ruled that they must receive medical treatment or be returned to a place where they could receive same so guess what folks we taxpayers get to pick up the tab just as you might have expected for people who have never contributed a dime to the u s society i think this government has its priorities all screwed up if they want to help haitians how about removing the illegal government how about giving them development aid it does not make sense to waste resources on dying non citizens who will never be productive in either this country or their own it does not make sense when the same resources applied or even just plain given to poor people in haiti could significantly help people in haiti per aids infected non citizen immigrant
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re debating special hate crimes laws in article apr midway uchicago edu thf midway uchicago edu said this sort of separate treatment by the law has no place in an equal society the solution to the fact that some classes are more vulnerable to attack or discrimination is to do what has always been done in response to imbalances in criminal activity and citizen protection to allocate law enforcement resources to more efficiently and effectively deal with the problems not to rewrite the law itself wdstarr so how do you feel about increased penalties for killing a policeman a federal employee or to use both scalia s and stevens s example increased penalties for threatening the president i m assuming that like all good people you oppose the marital exemption for rape so i won t bring that up in order of your questions i oppose it i oppose it i oppose it and huh wha where did that topic come from and what s it got to do with the discussion at hand when i was discussing the concept of different criminal laws for crimes against different classes of people and yes i do consider laws which allow mandate enhanced penalties following conviction based upon the convict s attitudes towards the class membership of the victim to fit into that category the category of classes i had in mind was that of the standard civil rights discussion classes based upon race gender ethnicity religion sexual orientation etc having you ask about classes based upon one s profession rather than one s personal characteristics caught me off guard and i had to think out the question from scratch what i finally decided was that the law should not recognize such classes because to do so would be to formally and officially declare some people to be of more worth than others and that would be anathema to the underlying american concept of equal treatment under the law last year when a federal crime bill was under consideration which would have expanded the federal death penalty to an additional fifty plus crimes including the murder of various federal officers hitherto not protected by that aura of deterrence critics pointed out the absurdity of having laws which made the death penalty available for the murder of a federal postal inspector but not for ther murder of a civilian teacher when the latter arguably provided a much more valueable service and therefore would be the greater loss to society this was an emotionally compelling argument but even the proponents of that viewpoint appeared to tacitly assume that the state should judge some lives as being more valuable than others on the basis of their contribution to society i view that doctrine as being both a personally repugnant and b repugnant to the equal protection clause of the th amendment accordingly i believe that there should be no laws which give any profession based class of people special protection via the mechanism of supplying stronger statutory deterrence of crimes against members of that class not even police officers federal officers or high ranking members of the executive branch of the federal government william december starr wdstarr athena mit edu
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e mail to the hill now that clinton can get e mail i m wondering if congress is also going on line if so does anyone have the address to reach them i m also looking for bill s e mail address please e mail me i am not a regualar reader of this newsgrouop
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re government mandated energy conservation is unnecessary and wastful study finds in article c vzu i r newsserver technet sg ipser solomon technet sg ed ipser writes government mandated energy conservation is unnecessary and wastful study finds while i agree with much of this post one point seems mis directed when standards of living population densities and industrial structures are controlled for the united states is no less energy efficient than japan and more energy efficient than many of the group of seven nations and when controlled for usage of oil gas etc energy efficiency in all countries turns out to be identical to take population density as an example one way to reduce energy used in transportation is surely to concentrate the population in dense urban areas though this might of course have other disadvantages possibly even relating to energy use the fact that japan is forced to do this by the nature of the country while the us is not does not mean that people in the us would be unable to do this if given sufficient motive to conserve energy radford neal
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re damn ferigner s be taken over in article apr vm mcgill ca cz musica mcgill ca cz writes mark anthony young pps many americans have a special legal status based on a mere accident of birth only people born in the us can become president of the us and since parliament could theoretically replace the queen with anyone they want even a ferigner us law is in one dimension more restictive than uk law as regards birth privileges this is not just theoretical note how ferigner william iii was imported from holland to kick out local boy james ii which provided the basis for the denoument of the film which introduced errol flynn to the world love interest was olivia de havilland who went on to appear with flynn in more films exercise for non old movie buffs what film was this exercise for old movie buffs what were the more films the views expressed herein are theodore a kaldis my own only do you seriously kaldis remus rutgers edu believe that a major university rutgers remus rutgers edu kaldis as this would hold such views
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re stop putting down white het males it may be a little late to reply to your tirade and also on an inaapropriate board but along with all of the so called great things the white male has done they have also contributed to society by means of mass genocide the theft of ideas and cultures creating and the perptration of historical lies throughouttime among many other horrible activities but every culture has its upside and its downside it seems to me that the white male must be extremely ignorant to qualify for the following if you re not disregard and western culture are the only things that look to actively classify things as good or bad worthy or unworthy ya dig it can be seen with slavery and the manipulation and destruction of the american indians civilization nothing but selfish acts that benefit one group of people and not even their women get or got respected or regarded as equal ain t that some stuff white men not being specific but in a lot of cases are just wack or have wack conceptions of how the world is to serve their purpose just look at david koresh throughout history i may be shortsighted on this one so excuse my predjudiced ignorance only white men associate themselves withbeing god no other culture is ignorant or arrogant enough to assume such a position and then to manipulate and mislead all those people hmmm i d say look in your history books but since it seems that history has been written to glorify the exploits of white men you d only find lies awww that s enough already from me because this has nothing to do with sex or this board if ya d like to continue this discussion e mail me and we can compare and contrast ideas i like conflict it s educational when the communcation is good my worth i apologize to those who thought this was going to be about sex but i was prompted by a response i found up here dave lewis frisky hands man
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re supply side revenue in article c t j b newsserver technet sg ipser solomon technet sg ed ipser writes the result is that clinton now hopes to reduce the deficit to a level above where it was when reagan left office which considering the amount bush congress added to it would be a not inconsiderable achievement while we re on the subject i also believe that the supply side claim that reducing taxes raised revenue is also false because they typically factor in socsec taxes which were raised a considerable amount at the same time that income taxes were cut if you look at income tax revenue alone it fell after after the cuts began and didn t recover for several years by then record deficits were well entrenched chew on that awhile crunch crunch steve soar
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re formal rebuttal to the presumption of jurisdiction kaldis romulus rutgers edu theodore a kaldis writes in article apr midway uchicago edu thf kimbark uchicago edu ted frank writes you re not breathing clean air provided by government regulations if this doesn t beat all i ever heard the above certainly says a mouthful about the mindset of ted frank and also of statists everywhere yes there s certainly no need to argue with him or address the substance of what he says he s a statist after all probably politically correct too bill
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re supply side economic policy in article pyramid pyramid com pcollac pyrnova mis pyramid com paul collacchi writes in article ufk gqu wbke cx v andrew cmu edu ashish andrew cmu edu ashish arora writes excerpts from netnews sci econ apr re supply side economic po by not a boomer desire wrig the deficits declined from reaching a low of of gnp before the tax and spending hike of reversed the trend brett is this true some more details would be appreciated cheers actually not brett himself has actually posted the data previously what declined from to as i remember it was percent increase in deficit growth i e the rate of growth of the deficit nd derivative of total deficit with respect of to time decreased would you please define nth derivative of debt last time i asked you seem to have disappeared and it s the deficits themselves that came down to of gnp the numbers are posted in the previous posting brett apparently has numbed himself into thinking that the deficit declined cute paul but with no numbers you still look foolish if you keep spending more than you earn the deficit keeps growing paul like many others is confusing the deficit with the debt if you keep borrowing at a lesser rate than you borrowed previously the deficit increases you only decrease deficits when your income exceeds spending and you use the difference to pay off debts not in terms of gnp the one universally accepted measure of deficits at least among rigorous economists arguments were brilliant he confirmed with data what many of us know with common sense the boom of the s has nothing to do with government policy particularly supply side policy since taxes do not cause economic activities people cause economic activity more can be semantics lindsey proves otherwise taxes make people change their economic activities or shall we debate whether it is the gun the bullet or the person who does the killing explained by watching population waves roll through the years and create cycles he has made models and predictions for years well into the middle of next century it will be neat to see how accurate he is or whether this gentleman can win the same praise as lindsey brett there s nothing so passionate as a vested interest disguised as an intellectual conviction sean o casey in the white plague by frank herbert
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re supply side economic policy was re david stockman in article ufk gqu wbke cx v andrew cmu edu ashish arora ashish andrew cmu edu writes excerpts from netnews sci econ apr re supply side economic po by not a boomer desire wrig the deficits declined from reaching a low of of gnp before the tax and spending hike of reversed the trend brett is this true some more details would be appreciated in billions of dollars gnp year gnp receipts outlays deficit debt unempl admin carter carter carter carter reagan reagan reagan reagan reagan reagan reagan reagan bush bush bush source statistical abstract of the us version american almanac version universal almanac version information please almanac version graphically deficits as a of gnp gnp x x x x x x x x x ironically bush could have frozen spending kept his no new taxes pledge and balanced the budget brett there s nothing so passionate as a vested interest disguised as an intellectual conviction sean o casey in the white plague by frank herbert
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re a loathesome subject in ppjruinnhnt elroy jpl nasa gov carlos beowulf jpl nasa gov carlos carrion writes in article c y dd l n panix com roy panix com roy radow writes but this does not imply that all relationships between youth and adults are exploitative and abusive the critical factor here is whether the sexual activity is forced or whether it is an activity that is consensually agreed upon and freely engaged in by the people involved when a child is forced there is often damage on the other hand wholeheartedly agree here consensual relationships are often found to be positive experiences for all concerned why do i find this hard to believe care to convince us carlos why not check out some of the scientific research that has been done in this area and convince yourself research around the world indicates that the issue of coercion is the critical factor for those interested in research on the topic i can suggest li et al england constantine united states and sandfort the netherlands i especially like sandfort s research for he actually quotes what the boys who are involved in the relationships have to say children and sex new findings new perspectives by larry constantine floyd m martinson eds little brown co boston boys on their contacts with men by theo sandfort global academic publishers elmhurst new york perspectives on paedophilia by brian taylor ed batsford academic educational ltd london paedophilia a factual report by frits bernard enclave rotterdam the netherlands sexual experience between men and boys by parker rossman maurice temple smith ltd middlesex great britain children s sexual encounters with adults by c k li d j west t p woodhouse gerald duckworth co london yours in liberation roy roy radow roy panix com rutgers cmcl panix roy north american man boy love association for a packet containing a sample bulletin publications list and membership information send postage to nambla info dept rr po box midtown station nyc ny
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re hard times investments was no subject given in article tecsun tec army mil riggs descartes etl army mil bill riggs writes my mother in law who grew up in germany doesn t believe in money at all she started out as a real estate developer and now raises horses she keeps telling me that inflation is coming back and to lock in my fixed rate mortgage as low as possible if time is really hard can a bank selectively call in some mortgage loans early what if the bank folds can its creditors call in the loans
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urgent ted frank wanted for killing aj teel his account that is many important issues and some not so important ones are discussed here on the net on a daily basis i have just been informed of what i feel is one of the most important things that we could ever discuss the out and out censorship of one of our fellow posters because some people don t like what he says or thinks we have all seen the postings here by aj teel although many of us have not agreed with their content i m sure most of us have been at least somewhat interested in them i for one am greatful to live i thought in a country where people like mr teel are allowed to say what they please if i don t wan t to read it i can just skip on by or unsuscribe but unfortunately some people cannot let others live and let live they feel an overwhelming need to snuff out the little bastards now it seems that mr teel will be with us no more due mainly to our brother and cheif net police ted frank please help aj teel regain net post access and correct this injustice are you on ted s hit list are your thoughts correct is your account safe has your sysadmin been contacted by the thought police i thought the nlg and the aclu supported people with diverse opinions not please read the following forwarded messages from aj teel so that you may understand this vial act for what it is forwarded newsgroups alt activism alt conspiracy talk politics misc misc legal subject officer ted frank thought police badge number nwo summary ted wins the argument by killing his opponent expires distribution organization university of colorado boulder keywords nwo ted frank well well well thanks to eck panix com mark eckenwiler and thf kimbark uchicago edu ted frank my account is to be axed i guess that the information i am presenting is just toooo difficult for them to deal with they only ted and mark have complained to my sysadmin some unknown number of times to get me off the net in his defense mark sent only one message and it was not that bad it has been posted in one of the newsgroups however it was not directed at me as would be common practice and i am very good at responding via netmail while i disagree with ted i would not send mail to his sysadmin to get him axed name calling was not enough jumping on every post i made was not enough ignoring specific points when they were not what the desired picture was not enough simply ignoring me if i am such a kook was not enough even now i do not wish to have him axed but i do wish to express my disgust about this argumentum ad silence your opponent um i would have thought he would have wanted me to stay around just to have someone to yell about and seem sooo wise to himself i think the issue that seems to be is the following an advertisement apparently ted and mark think so i posted an article from around one year ago as it was taken off the net from last year if reposting an article constitutes posting an ad then i am guilty this post did have a name and address and yes a price if one had posted the address and subscription price of newsweek would that be an ad i get nothing from showing this stuff i posted a list of documents showing examples of the kind of proof that was requested by ted frank he then complains to my sysadmin saying that i am advertising and lo and behold poof there goes my account this one had an address in it oh no i guess that means it is an ad if you value the alternative view i have been discussing or value its discussion even if you do not agree with it i ask that you send a note saying as much to me to show to the sysadmin they rarely get ya know that user on your net was real helpful or whatever they only get i don t like what that user is doing because please do not send the note to the sysadmin i need to take it to them in a manner that has at least a chance of getting through in my files here are hundreds of responses from people saying thanks for the info or could you send me such and such or your posts are very interesting keep it up and only a handfull of go aways but i guess the fact that i have decided not to waste my time trying to convince ted is a net offense tm of such magnitude as to warrant a message complaining about me knock knock my name is ted and and this is mark we re from the thought police seems you have some pretty dangerous ideas here and we re here to confiscate them nwo indeed guess i will have to go back to the drawing board and come up with a new plan thanks ted and mike hope you are happy i will be on for a few more days and then that s all folks your comments and support are requested i can no longer post to news i ask what this has accomplished is there some benefit from making alternative views simply vanish not in my book seems the easiest way to win an argument is to make the opposing side shut up images of waco ah but alas and all this when i am in the process of typing in a letter to me from the tax collector saying that a lien was removed due to a letter that i wrote challenging jurisdiction oh well it takes time to come up with the info requested and i was just getting started it should be noted that ted frank has been accused publicly over times of being an nwo supporter and has never made an statements to the contrary further what are ted frank s motivations for getting me axed we all know that some people are getting paid to collect info on people on the net that are of interest to the government and ted sure seems to have a personal interest in debunking me hmmm just who does he work for the university of chicago which he attends is well known as one of the biggest nwo supporters and finally if anyone would be able to help me find a new account here in the boulder denver area i would greatly appreciate it i am in the process of installing linux and so will be able to do uucp or maybe a tc ip connection any help here would be greatly appreciated since i am longer be able to post news and will no longer have email very soon i hope that anyone who wishes to contact me will do so via a j teel sui juris c o usps box boulder colorado u s a postal zone or leave me voice mail at c o selected messages from ted frank via sysadmin follows with explicit reservation of all rights u c c regards a j teel sui juris ajteel dendrite cs colorado edu from barb locutus cs colorado edu mon apr received from locutus cs colorado edu by dendrite cs colorado edu with smtp id aa c ida for ajteel dendrite cs colorado edu mon apr received by locutus cs colorado edu with smtp id aa c ida for ajteel mon apr message id aa locutus cs colorado edu to ted frank thf midway uchicago edu subject re list of documents cc cstmr locutus cs colorado edu csops locutus cs colorado edu ajteel locutus cs colorado edu vaxops locutus cs colorado edu reply to trouble cs colorado edu in reply to your message of mon apr cdt date mon apr from barb locutus cs colorado edu status or please ask to stop advertising his wares on the network thank you editor s note in article apr colorado edu ajteel writes start of document doclist txt lis documents now available bill medina sui juris post office box sunnyvale california u s a postal zone lines deleted resolution thank you he has been warned before we are taking action barbara j dyker department of computer science manager computer operations campus box b ecee barb cs colorado edu university of colorado boulder co from barb locutus cs colorado edu mon apr received from locutus cs colorado edu by dendrite cs colorado edu with smtp id aa c ida for ajteel dendrite cs colorado edu mon apr received by locutus cs colorado edu id aa c ida for ajteel mon apr date mon apr from barbara dyker barb locutus cs colorado edu message id aa locutus cs colorado edu received by next mailer received by next mailer to ajteel locutus cs colorado edu subject your account cc vaxops locutus cs colorado edu usenet locutus cs colorado edu mozer locutus cs colorado edu status or i had already warned you that your inappropriate use of your account here must stop you have used your account here as a soapbox for your political sui juris agenda date tue mar from barb locutus cs colorado edu to ajteel locutus cs colorado edu also if you are reported for any more commercial announcements your account may be disabled editor s note what commercial advertisemnets are we talking about from barb bruno cs colorado edu to a j teel ajteel dendrite cs colorado edu date tue mar mst as long as they aren t causing any problems we typically don t mind we have received two complaints about the content of your messages so far at least one of which i consider valid which already constitutes excessive in my book just don t let it happen again editor s note i wonder who the other post was from from laszlo eclipse cs colorado edu thu mar to ted frank thf midway uchicago edu subject re bouncing cc cstmr eclipse cs colorado edu csops eclipse cs colorado edu reply to trouble cs colorado edu in reply to your message of wed mar cst date thu mar mst from laszlo eclipse cs colorado edu in article mar colorado edu ajteel dendrite cs colorado edu bounced names garry research att com bill kean usc mun ca jad hopper virginia edu kima gator rational com hello all i am having trouble reaching the following keeps bouncing if you sent me mail and haven t gotten a response check here also can anyone tell me why these are bouncing i used the reply in elm which should send it right back right with explicit reservation of all rights u c c regards a j teel sui juris ajteel dendrite cs colorado edu editor s note the reason for posting the header lines from the bounced messages was to show what the problem was and hopefully correct it ted frank it s inexcusable to post lines of bounced mail headers to four newsgroups a simple four line post would have been sufficient resolution lazlo yes i agree but our policy is to not watch everypost someone here makes we generally let the net itself take care of inappropriate postings by flaming the user into shape which i assume this is ment to be we cs operations don t like to get involved in this stuff unless its illegal repetitive posts of gig gifs harassment or something else that offends the community in general my suggestion is that you take it to email and explain what a post for bounces should look like or tell him to rtfm laz editor s note obviously ted had no such intention of doing so ted frank however teel should have mentioned that though thf kimbark uchicago edu his advice is legally sound if you follow it the u of c law school you will probably wind up in jail standard disclaimers james donald in misc legal editor s note from this sig it seems obvious that ted frank has an axe to grind why that particular quote hmmm sure makes me wonder lance w bledsoe lwb im u cs utexas edu ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free
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re news you may have missed arf genesis mcs com jack schmidling writes in article pprtvinnctl aludra usc edu sgoldste aludra usc edu fogbound child writes arf genesis mcs com jack schmidling writes in article apr rapnet sanders lockheed com babb k scott babb writes jack schmidling arf genesis mcs com wrote jac y virginia edu jonathan a cook jac y writes why do you restrict your condemnation of racial strife to israel do the situations in bosnia tibet china etc not merit your comment as far as i am aware we have not sent close to billion dollars to let s not exaggerate i notice you did not offer an alternative number try this one on for size by the year american taxpayers will have given israel one dollar for every star in the milky way galaxy i will let you look up the number ok i admit i have no hard data on this why don t you help me with this if you would compile a commented list of all grants un repaid loans if any and direct aid i d be very interested to see it if you could give me references from for example congressional budget authorization hearings i could look them up here and i d be happy to post a verification of your data otherwise i ll try my hand at this but unfortunately i won t have sufficient time available until the end of this month so the results would be delayed let me know if you re interested in doing this samuel mossad special agent id media spiking and mind control division los angeles offices pratice safe signature prevent dangerous signature virii guildenstern our names shouted in a certain dawn a message a summons there must have been a moment at the beginning where we could have said no but somehow we missed it
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re defense against the detractors in article apr colorado edu ajteel dendrite cs colorado edu a j teel writes in article c tdab a o panix com eck panix com mark eckenwiler writes in apr colorado edu ajteel dendrite cs colorado edu sez i would have thought you would have found better means of refuting or responding to the substantive points and information in the s b the s b needs no refutation by me the patent absurdity of your beloved great book speaks for itself your ignorance is clearly showing itself again mark why don t you read the post and show us all where the silver bulletin is wrong it is an expose of the corruption and fraud in government or do you feel that our wonderful state is just nifty and sweet fine if you think it s an expose of corruption and fraud please prevent a jury question don t just reassert your opening statement for those in the dark i wrote to teel s sysadmin noting that a he wastes bandwidth by posting identical messages long ones to several newsgroups independently instead of cross posting and b he has improperly used his posts to advertise goods for sale a i was requested to post to those groups and they were getting deleted by whom b the goods for sale was a method of showing the source and obtaining further info and the message in question was retrieved in its entirety from the net i simply reposted it from one year ago would there be a complaint if i had posted an article from newsweek then posted the address and subscription price how about the subscription info for the american law review bit of a double standard yeah think so no indication that was what happened until now editing down is always possible readers more careful than a j will note that the complaint appended below expressly disclaims any wish to suppress teel s postings merely because they are infantile irrational and tedious more name calling mark is that your best shot oh i see the reason for your sending that letter had nothing to do with your opinion of my information right clearly your motivations were the best interest of all of those poor users who could not speak for themselves if we weren t talking about attempted censorship sp it would be funny further your perception for want of a better term is not the feedback that i have been getting via email and others the keep it up s outnumber the go away s at least to it would be interesting to hear who the responding parties are i for one have no intention of being a slave you may be so if you like just remember where you heard that on tribute day april i am not a th amendment taxpayer slave ssn holder etc are you for discussion purposes only don t let the irs see this mr teel and by the way the reference to ucc is made in pari materia with my common law rights is the recourse and is the remedy and as has been noted more times than we care to count about as likely to stand up in court as the twenty seven eight by ten color glossy pictures the stockbridge mass police took for use as evidence against arlo guthrie as anyone who knows alice s restaurant is aware he pleaded guilty to littering was fined and told to pick up the garbage daniel reitman how not to write a deed one case involved the construction of a conveyance to grantees jointly as tenants in common with equal rights and interest in said land and to the survivor thereof in fee simple to have and to hold the same unto the said parties hereto equally jointly as tenants in common with equal rights and interest for the period or term of their lives and to the survivor thereof at the death of the other the court held that the survivorship provision indicated an intent to create a joint tenancy germain v delaine ala so d
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re bill conklin et al s letter in article apr midway uchicago edu thf kimbark uchicago edu ted frank writes in article apr colorado edu ajteel dendrite cs colorado edu a j teel writes well the two nifty letters giving concrete proof that the income tax is voluntary and giving specific procedures for stopping withholding et cetera have been out there for a while now there has been no refutation to date have the nay sayers finally given up as defeated sure would like to hear there reasons for disbelief at this point probably because you have yet to respond to the refutation i ve posted teel it s bad enough you post this bs it s even worse that you don t even try to defend it when it gets torn to pieces but then posting that no one s looked at it and gloating when all facts point to the contrary point to a severely deluded mind what i found interesting about conklin s letter is the cases he has won against the irs now assuming that these cases really exist and were one by him anyone checked they may have nothing to do with his major tax claim the irs fought one of his deductions defending your deductions seems puny when you believe that there is no need to file in the first place bernard silver gte laboratories bsilver gte com
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re why not concentrate on child molesters in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes yet when a law was proposed for virginia that extended this philosophy to cigarette smokers so that people who smoked away from the work couldn t be discriminated against by employers the liberal gov wilder vetoed it which shows that liberals don t give a damn about best person for the job it s just a power play of course clayton ignores the fact that employers pay health insurance and insurance for smokers is more expensive than for non smokers greg hennessy university of virginia usps mail astronomy department charlottesville va usa internet gsh w virginia edu uucp uunet virginia gsh w
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re hilter and homosexuals cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes ericsc x k apz netcom com erics netcom com eric smith writes gsmith lauren iwr uni heidelberg de gene w smith writes are you saying that people voted for hitler and he became reich chancellor in good part because he used bully boys to attack communists hitler did not become become reich chancellor because people voted for him i m not sure if you meant to imply that or not but i just thought i d bring that up hitler became chancellor because people voted for his political party that s not a huge difference in a parliamentary system your statement is a common misconception but it just isn t true in the german weimar system the chancellor was not necessarily the leader of the largest reichstag party the chancellor was appointed by the president and generally was the leader of a coalition of parties who could form an effective majority in the reichstag beyond that the implication that hitler rose to the chancellorship because a majority of germans wanted nazi rule is false as well before president hindenburg appointed hitler chancellor in january the german people did not show a particular desire to be led either by hitler or by the nazi party these are the results of the march election for president the closest hitler ever came to direct election hindenburg hitler thaelmann duesterberg in the runoff election in april the results were hindenburg hitler thaelmann so we can see that hitler personally was supported by only about a third of german voters similarly the nazi party never received more than of the vote in reichstag elections that occurred in july in the november election the nazis lost two million votes and seats down from to out of the in the reichstag comparitively the socialists had and the communists the communists had gained seats and the german national party which had supported the previous government had picked up a million of the nazis lost votes to gain seats up to i think the other large party was the catholic center party i don t know how many seats they had but i think they were declining and there were numerous other small parties thus the nazi vote was on the decline at the time hitler was appointed chancellor what brought hitler to power was not the demand of the german people for hitler or the nazis to run things but the inability of the other parties to put their differences behind them in favor of forming an effective government for the country germany did not have an enduring democratic tradition and their parliamentary system lacked effective center parties that favored the interests of the majority of the population instead what they had was a number of small parties who were unable to put aside their own specific objectives in order to combine against the nazis who were out to end the democratic process in fact part of the problem was that some of the other parties with substantial representation like the communists were also out to end the democratic process but with different results in mind and generally didn t mind seeing parliamentary democracy go under germany had already had a non nazi chancellor with a majority coalition for five months while the nazis had been the largest reichstag party and there certainly was no danger of a revolution in favor of the nazis if anything the nazis were starting to get desperate because they had failed to get enough support to make hitler president and their popular vote had begun to decline hitler was not hindenburg s first choice to be chancellor not even his second choice first von papen had been chancellor since june after the november election when the nazis lost seats hindenburg first prevailed on von papen to remain as chancellor but there were intrigues behind his back and support for him was lacking so then hindenburg turned to von schleicher who became chancellor for two months eventually he too was unable to hold together a working coalition of parties to oppose the nazis who refused to participate in any government that was not led by a nazi chancellor some of the nazi leadership particularly gregor strasser who was the man in the party at the time wanted to participate in a coalition government but others knowing the party s support was waning figured that their best hope to gain power lay in undermining the democratic process nevertheless the country was governed for seven months by chancellors who were not nazis even though the nazis were the largest reichstag party the failure of these men to achieve a working coalition was due to the inability of their coalition parties to work together here s how william shirer puts it in the rise and fall of the third reich the cardinal error of the germans who opposed nazism was their failure to unite against it at the crest of their popular strength in july the national socialists had attained but percent of the vote but the percent of the german people who expressed their opposition to hitler were much too divided and shortsighted to combine against a common danger which they must have known would overwhelm them unless they united however temporarily to stamp it out true the german people supported hitler after he became chancellor but that doesn t change the fact that there was not overwhelming support for him before he was in power the german people were not crying out for hitler to take over no matter how bad economic conditions were the leftist parties socialists communists probably had more support in total than the nazis hitler used the fact that others were passively or actively willing to see the government paralyzed as a means to taking it over eric smith erics netcom com erics infoserv com ci
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re economic stimulus or pork in article apr isc br isc br com steveh thor isc br com steve hendricks writes in fact no one has such a list the clinton package as presently proposed includes a variety of recommended spending areas and dollar amounts it does not include a line by line list of every project that would be funded congress may include such line items in the bill when it passes likewise it may prohibit spending for specific projects as amendments to the bill such amendments positive and negative are often pointed to by those who propose a line item veto or enhanced recision power for the president some of the billion package is in the form of block grants to states and localities this is why i asked to be enlightened you are making claims about what is or is not part of this program but if the block grants go to states and cities the mayors list is very relivent i d suggest contacting your local officials reading a newspaper with good coverage of congress washington post ny times or if you re serious about paying attention to these issues get copies of congressional quarterly at your library or have your representative put you on the mailing list for the congressional record it s free but be prepared to invest more time in the effort than it takes to watch the evening news or read your local paper okay scarasm does deserve sacrasm but i already contact my local officals my congress rep senators watch evening news news programs and c span in addition to the cherry picking that went on with the mayors wish list congressional republicans selected wish list projects from a variety of federal agencies based apparently upon how silly the names of the projects sounded i m not even sure if they bothered to correlate a potential expenditure of an agency in clinton s bill with a potential project from the same agency but it is clear that the effort was to make clinton s potential expenditures appear to be linked to projects with absurd names not to be taken seriously any more than equivalent tactics by democrats would have been in the reagan bush era the fact is that primetime tm of abc has had numberous reposts on such waste programs that already exist again if we are truely intrested in eliminating the debt we must remove the deficit and do away with all pork i realize that it is tempting to believe that government is in the hands of clowns who are dishonest at best but such simplistic analysis does little to advance the cause of public education there have been several books written on gov waste network news programs from time to time devote segments to this and there have been bills proposed that significantly reduces expenditures without touching external programs by changing the way congress does business and make it more efficent true blame is easy but also is spending someone else s money clinton ran on a platform that he would not raise taxes on the middle class to pay for these his programs he has proposed a program that is not specific that counts on tax hikes to pay for ken m edwards bell northern research research triangle park nc email cnc a bnr ca ham n zbb all opinions are my own and do not necessarily reflect the views of my employer or co workers family friends congress or president you d better call my dad my mom s pretty busy chelsea clinton
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re top ten comments overheard in the secret service lounge in article apr highlite uucp croaker highlite uucp francis a ney says of who else but president of the united states william jefferson clinton it s a much better deal to have him end his term of office in disgrace after watching all his liberal democrat friends on his staff run this nation down the toilet tsk surely you don t wish for the democrats to destroy our beloved country just so your party can get some trivial political advantage that s rather a petty way to think not that this pettiness doesn t extend all the way to the u s senate i ve noticed while bush was president i kept hoping and praying that he d wise up i couldn t stand the man but i wish he d done a decent job if so we might not be in the mess we are now and that would be a small price to pay for suffering through another term of republican control similarily you should be hoping and praying that clinton does a good job even if you re certain he won t so i propose that we destroy the moon neatly solving that problem your blood pressure just went up mark sachs is mbs psuvm psu edu disclaimer if psu knew i had opinions they d try to charge me for them
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re top ten reasons not to aid russians in article c qr duu encore com rcollins encore com roger collins writes julie eddie jpl nasa gov julie kangas writes i suggest you listen very carefully to the stuff yeltsin and his people are saying and compare that with the very anti west slogans coming from his opponents in the russian congress i sure know who i want to back could we back him without forcing others to back him at the point of a gun if we had backed him strongly early on i doubt there would be the problem there is now many russians became disillusioned with democracy and reforms when they felt rightly imo that the west didn t care yeltsin was virtually promised massive aid once bush got over his gorby mania this probably kept him from dismantling the congress and calling for new elections well the aid didn t come through and we didn t make sure it went to the proper places and now the anti reformers are gaining strength where before they were in hiding have you considered a non interventionist policy if market reform does happen russia will certainly get private capital at private risk to help their economy they will even have incentive to do so for the same reason if they don t reform then our government will probably consider them enemies anyway and rather spend money to hurt rather than help them if they don t reform i don t believe in giving them money however i think this is too important to take a non interventionist approach this is what really bugs me about libertarianism it sounds like it ll all be the same in a hundred years time no need to do anything how does this affect us well we are on the same planet and if vast tracks of europe are blown away i think we d feel something a massive breakup of a country that spans th the planet is bound to have affects here of course there is also the humanitarian argument that democracies should help other democracies or struggling democracies if a billion gift was that important to our well being couldn t it be raised voluntarilly people already give over billion a year to charity despite the wishes of libertarians this society is a far way and getting farther from being libertarian perhaps voluntary gifts would work if we had the proper framework but we do not have it we have to face the problem now not in x years when we have a libertarian dream society right now there are huge stumbling blocks to trade let alone charity there are still limitations to high tech exports nasa can t buy proton launch vehicles from them sure the market may be able to help a great deal but it can t right now there are too many obstacles instead of fighting against the aid you should be fighting to tear down the obstacles the market and charities have to face seriously everyone has different opinions on what is stupid my two causes are aid to russia and a strong space program someone else will champion welfare or education or doing studies of drunken goldfish that is why we have a republic and not a true democracy instead of gridlock on a massive scale we only have gridlock on a congressional scale it seems instead of gridlock on any scale we have aid to russia expensive space programs national charity that doesn t help the poor and probably studies of drunken goldfish i think limited government is more key than how democratic it is well i think limited government is primarily democratic due to it being limited but the main question is how do you transform a state run economy and monolithic government into something that even remotely looks like ours btw sometimes it seems that our government is trying to go the opposite direction it is not going to be painless and not going to be easy we simply cannot wait to help when they have the proper government they ll never get there without the aid it may be too late already btw who is to decide stupid this is just like those who want to impose their morals on others just the sort of thing i thought libertarians were against that was an opinion and libertarians are very big on free speech and i m just excercising mine actually my politics are pretty libertarian except on this one issue and this is why it is impossible for me to join the party it seems that libertarians want to withdraw from the rest of the world and let it sink or swim if you are pretty libertarian except on this one issue then you should be very libertarian consider it a compromise how much money would your fellow russia aiders have to give to russia if those you oppose weren t using the same government machine to steal money from you and your group for causes you don t support as i also said above another problem i have is with transformation a libertarian society is not going to happen painlessly or overnight i have seen nothing about how to take our current government and society and turn it into a minimal government and a responsible self sufficient populace we could do that years ago but not now people have been saying that for hundreds of years they didn t have nuclear weapons years ago nor instantaneous communications nor travel to virtually anyplace on the earth in less than a day like it or not we are in the beginnings of a global economy and global decision making all the more reason to depend on the free market which can more efficiently process information than to depend on rulers for decisions on complex issues yes depend on the rulers of the free market and the businesses rulers do emerge somewhere and they will never represent the opinions of every person on the planet there must be checks and balances checks on the government when it gets out of bounds and checks on industry when it gets out of bounds putting all your hopes on the benevolence of the market is to me just like putting all your hopes on the benevolence of government julie disclaimer all opinions here belong to my cat and no one else
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re ca s pedophilia laws cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes k hobbes kzoo edu jamie r mccarthy writes having completely dived into the abyss of believing that there are no queers in the world who think differently from the child molestation advocating minority on soc motss he doesn t even notice that he s starting a sentence with they believe when the referent of that they is millions of people so few as to be irrelevant if you don t want to be lumped together as a group stop insisting on being treated as a member of a group please point out where i have said i even was a member of that group much less asked to be treated as such much less insisted upon it sexual orientation is not defined by the anti discrimination law that was passed last year pedophilia isn t a sexual orientation wait a minute you ve been claiming for quite a while now that pedophilia according to ca state law is a sexual orientation now your position is that the law doesn t specifically exclude it you know damn well what s going to happen some guy in a nambla t shirt s going to apply at a day care they re going to turn him down he s going to take it to court and the court s going to rule that sexual orientation is defined as homosexuality heterosexuality or bisexuality unless and until that court decides that pedophilia is a sexual orientation you have no business saying so silence death pin or something they turn me down because of that i wholeheartedly support their right to take this action i wouldn t do it myself unless it was something like the nambla t shirt despite the fact that all homosexuals are lying bastards how about a black man applies for a job at a bank the bank decides based on statistics a black person would be more likely to steal money and denies the man the job would you support the bank s right to this freedom i support their right to do so deletia but deletia ah so for example you are opposed to the civil rights act of here s the law that was passed and signed by the governor the people of the state of california do enact as follows section the purpose of this act is to codify existing case law as determined in gay law students v pacific telephone and telegraph cal d and soroka v dayton hudson corp cal app d prohibiting discrimination based on sexual orientation sec section is added to the labor code to read a sections and prohibit discrimination or disparate treatment in any of the terms and conditions of employment based on actual or perceived sexual orientation b this section shall not apply to a religious association or corporation not organized for private profit whether incorporated as a religious or public benefit corporation there s no for purposes of this act the term sexual orientation will be defined as section no definitions anywhere did they run this through the state congress on an accelerated schedule or something jamie mccarthy internet k kzoo edu applelink j mccarthy
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re top ten comments overheard in the secret service lounge in article ez j b w w unkaphaed jpunix com popec unkaphaed jpunix com william c barwell writes croaker highlite uucp francis a ney writes besides which we don t want clinton assasinated because that would make h a martyr a la jfk it s a much better deal to have him end his term of office in disgrace after watching all his liberal democrat friends on his staff run this nation down t toilet assuming of course that the riots a fortnight from now don t do it for him he d have to go a far ways to run things down as bad as reagan and bush did we didn t have riots but bush got dumped out on his spotty behind we ll see in years pope charles slack in our time s you need to stop watching tv and start reading some history jason c austin j c austin larc nasa gov
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re who be conservative on this in article apr mnemosyne cs du edu mcochran nyx cs du edu mark a cochran writes kevin rotag mi org kevin darcy writes in article apr mnemosyne cs du edu mcochran nyx cs du edu mark a cochran writes the sc allows restrictions after viability a term never medically defined any physician who can t make a reasonable stab at determining whether a given fetus is viable or not is not qualified to perform an abortion kebbin shows that he does not know the difference between determining the viability of an individual fetus and providing the universally accepted medical definition s of viability i was not discussing universal definitions in this post mark please refrain from dragging in irrelevancies do you agree with my statement above about physicians being unqualified if they can t determine viability since we know that there are some physicians out there who are qualified to perform abortions then obviously some medical definition of viability is being employed on an case by case basis viability is relatively easy to determine and that s good enough for the law mark so why do you keep whining that viability isn t defined what purpose does your whining serve kevin
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re cbs ny times poll on health care alternatives in article apr isc br isc br com steveh thor isc br com steve hendricks writes thought others on the net might be interested in a selection of findings from the new york times cbs news poll on national health care i ll leave it to doug fierro to enter the entire article if he chooses what follows is a selection of the findings paraphrased without permission any errors are mine not the times the ny times doesn t make mistakes poll results deleted the economic and political ignorance of most americans can be truly scary price controls and government intervention the surest route to disaster it s amazing people never seem to learn from history or common sense price controls do not and cannot work i would have thought our last experiment in the s would have been enough to dampen the belief that price controls can actually work as for government intervention people never seem to get the irony of what the are saying we are told that entitlements are the biggest portion of the budget and they must be controlled we are presented with horror stories of waste and fraud in almost all government agencies we are shown stories about the miserable treatment our veterans get in our government run hospitals we are just now seeing stories about how social security isn t going to cut it in the future as if that should come as any surprise and yet people choose to ignore all of that and believe in the fairy tale of the government coming to the rescue simply amazing james w howe internet jwh citi umich edu university of michigan uucp uunet mailrus citi umich edu jwh ann arbor mi
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re top ten responses to ed s top ten lists roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes the real question should the feds bail out steve jobs next a la chrysler so that important manufacturing jobs wouldn t be lost a la chrysler okay kids to the nearest thousand how many dollars did the government spend to bail out chrysler more than zero you say bzzzzzzzzzt wrong answer don wiggins german irish american success is getting what you want lead scout for the baby boomers happiness is wanting what you get internet wiggins osiris cso uiuc edu brother dave gardner
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re urgent ted frank wanted for killing aj teel if the heading is true mr frank should be ashamed of himself nothing makes me gag more than people who don t respect the rights of others to voice their opinions my idol lenny bruce once commented about that asshole time magazine when they advocated censorship of his material time actually sided with the cops and their arresting of bruce at his shows whereby he routinely would say cocksucker then the cops would rush the stage to arrest him my how the times haven t changed i can t help but think of how lenny would be received in today s politically correct arena heck i even support the right of neo nazis to speak their opinions and march down the streets and before mr frank or anyone else makes any wisecracks about anti semitism i m jewish a longtime member of aipac and the jnf and have contributed over apiece to these fine groups i m a regular contributor to every pro israel group i can find but i still support the right of people like arf to speak up and vomit his propaganda i want to know just who these people are i m basing all this on the assumption that mr frank did indeed write to some sysadmin requesting mr teel to be admonished if this is not the case i hereby retract these nasties directed toward him if not i stand against mr frank and his trashing of the first amendment philip stromer
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re supply side revenue in tekig pen tek com ssoar tekig pen tek com steven e soar writes in article c t j b newsserver technet sg ipser solomon technet sg ed ipser writes the result is that clinton now hopes to reduce the deficit to a level above where it was when reagan left office which considering the amount bush congress added to it would be a not inconsiderable achievement while we re on the subject i also believe that the supply side claim that reducing taxes raised revenue is also false because they typically factor in you need to hop over to talk politics misc wee have been chewing on this gem for awhile the challenge has been made to name a single supply sider who ever said this for the last three weeks the challenge has gone unmet i issue the same challenge to you mob rule isn t any prettier merely because the mob calls itself a government it ain t charity if you are using someone else s money wilson s theory of relativity if you go back far enough we re all related mark wilson atlantaga ncr com
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re i thought commercial advertising was not allowed in c sjg eu voder nsc com matt galaxy nsc com matt freivald x writes in article in talk politics misc bob cos com bob blackshaw writes and ms regard please don t give us the trite you can t legislate morality nonsense again there is little else that is legislated including the moral concept of rights really pure socialism had this belief and fell flat on its ass by attempting to follow such reasoning suppose you pass a law that states that i must love my neighbour regardless of race religion etc how exactly do you plan to enforce such a law better yet how do you plan to measure compliance and even if you overcome those two obstacles how will you ever know if i have become more moral or not you either missed the point or are being somewhat disingenuous i have never heard anyone suggest that you can legislate what people think laws are based on either expediency i e traffic laws or morality i e human rights as far as i can tell and the majority are based on the latter once more around the racetrack see the original statement that it is nonsense to believe that you cannot legislate morality i simply stated that they can pass all the laws they want but not a single one of them will make you or i more moral people they may make us act in a moral manner but our actions are only a reflection of the unwillingness to risk punishment they say nothing about whether we have become more moral or not perhaps the distinction is too fine matt freivald tog i m not a feminist i m for equal rights if you don t believe in abortion don t have one if you don t believe in slavery don t own one if you don t believe in murder don t commit one pro child pro family pro life these are my opinions only and not those of my employer
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re supply side economic policy was re david stockman in article c t j b newsserver technet sg ipser solomon technet sg ed ipser writes details that you are seeking is that the grahm rudman budget controls were working in fact they were working so well that unless the feds did something they were going to have to start cutting pork so bush and the democrats got together in a budget summit and replaced grahm rudman with the now historic grand compromise in which bush yea it turned out that gramm rudman was a sham to fool the voters into accepting the borrow and spend policies of the last years as it turned out the taxes killed the reagan expansion and the caps anyone can expand the economy by chargeing trillion on their credit cards big deal deficit spending only expands the economy in the short term in the long term it shrinks the economy for numerous reasons i would have much preferred that the taxpayers had that trillion instead the result is that clinton now hopes to reduce the deficit to a level above where it was when reagan left office chew on that awhile if reagan had kept his campaign promise to balance the budget by there would have been no need for bush or clinton to raise taxes and all reagan had to do was balance that puny carter deficit chew on that awhile tom kimball openconnect systems lbj freeway suite tk oc com dallas tx
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re temper tantrums from the s in article philc d f g j netcom com phil netcom com phil ronzone writes in article apr cbnewsi cb att com gadfly cbnewsi cb att com gadfly writes now let me get this straight after a nice long rant about how people need to take personal responsibility for their economic and social lives all of a sudden s radicals such as me i guess are responsible for poor people s lifestyles tell me how that works or do you think that poor people are just too dumb to think for themselves there are many reasons for the disintegration of the family and support systems in general among this nation s poor somehow i don t think murphy brown or janis joplin is at the top of any sane person s list you want to go after my generation s vaunted cultural revolution for a lasting change for the worse try so called relevant or values education hey it seemed like a good idea at the time how were we to know you needed a real education first i mean we took that for granted the s generation were the most spoiled and irresponsible the depression had create mothers and fathers that were determined that their kids would not want for anything going overboard and creating a nation of brats consider the contrast between two famous events in july of apollo and woodstock which group had large numbers of people that could not feed themselves and reverted to the cultural level of primitives defecation in public etc and which group assembled took care of itself and dispersed with no damage no deaths no large numbers of drug problems wasn t woodstock also called the biggest parking lot in history they rejected society and went back to nature in their parent s cars jason c austin j c austin larc nasa gov
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re tieing abortion to health reform is clinton nuts in apr ringer cs utsa edu sbooth lonestar utsa edu simon e booth writes in article apr wdl loral com bard cutter ssd loral com writes sbooth lonestar utsa edu simon e booth writes sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes we already kill people death penalty and that costs even more money so you could as well complain about this extremely barbaric way of justice but the death penalty is right and how expensive can an execution be i mean i think rope cyanide for the gas or the rifles and ammunition to arm firing squads are affordable now perhaps lethal injection might be expensive in that case let s return to the more efficient methods employed in the past oh sure the death penalty is fairly inexpensive but the trial and sentencing can run millions strychnine unless you wanna cut costs by skipping the trial and sentencing you murderous little rat bastard why as a matter of fact i was thinking of that as a way to make the system more efficient and the only murderous rat bastards are aboritionists yeah simon s no rat bastard he s the head attack puppy simon tog
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re tieing abortion to health reform is clinton nuts in apr ringer cs utsa edu sbooth lonestar utsa edu simon e booth writes in article bob cos bob cos com bob blackshaw writes in apr wdl loral com bard cutter ssd loral com j h woodyatt writes sbooth lonestar utsa edu simon e booth writes sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes we already kill people death penalty and that costs even more money so you could as well complain about this extremely barbaric way of justice but the death penalty is right and how expensive can an execution be i mean i think rope cyanide for the gas or the rifles and ammunition to arm firing squads are affordable now perhaps lethal injection might be expensive in that case let s return to the more efficient methods employed in the past oh sure the death penalty is fairly inexpensive but the trial and sentencing can run millions that s assuming our attack puppy is willing to grant people trials in his new order and why the hell would i waste my time doing that to a convicted criminal getting a death sentence go directly to hell do not pass go do not collect judge laughing hey puppy you are getting further around the bend every day but i wouldn t miss your adolescent ravings for the world everyone needs a good laugh now and then simon tog
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re how many homosexuals are there in article apr news acns nwu edu dmeier casbah acns nwu edu douglas meier writes in article apr isc br isc br com steveh thor isc br com steve hendricks writes in article apr news acns nwu edu dmeier casbah acns nwu edu douglas meier writes if someone beats up a homosexual he should get charged for assault and battery why must we add gay bashing to the list isn t this a sort of double jeopardy or am i just being a fascist again to deter an epidemic of gay bashing that has not been deterred by assault laws so we ought to make beating up a homosexual more illegal than beating up a straight silly me thinking that the issue was that we are all people to be treated equally thanks for straightening me out wrong if a bunch of faggots from the tenderloin decide to go straight bashing and they selectively target a heterosexual man and beat the bloody fuck out of him they would get charged as well under all the federal laws that exist about violation of civils rights the focus of their intent is his sexual orientation and so the law applies to them as well the national government retains the right to make any laws necessary to sufficiently deter and punish any crime against someone s civil rights until that behavior becomes so well punished that nobody even tries it the fact is that at last count gays were not beating straights for their sexual orientation thus the law is getting applied only to the straights who indulge themselves the federal government or judiciary has the right to enforce the th amendment guarantee of equal protection under law even if it takes possible charges against people who would violate them go read your constitutional law we broke the back of the kkk s harrassment campaign with the same strategy in the early s so many went to jail and for so long that it cut the heart out of the kkk rsw no it is not double jeopardy a single act may lead to multiple charges and multiple crimes i think what you meant to say here was with the current mutation of the us constitution under the current police state someone may be charged multiple times for one act if the victim in question is of the right shade a single act should never merit more than on charge that s almost like if four cops got acquitted from cruel and unusual punishment charges and the country went and tried them again and again until they oh never mind this mutation as you call it protects your little butt too if you happen to be somewhere where you re the wrong shade for somebody else s taste if it can be shown that the motive for the assault on you was racially motivated then the full power of these extra laws that bring more charges and punishments will come against those who harmed you the first use of such laws was well over a hundred years ago and constitutional scholars of all conviction recognize that this right reserved to the federal government is well established and not just some short lived peculiarity too go read some constitutional law for awhile maybe you ll get it rsw douglas c meier dmeier casbah acns nwu edu richard steven walz rstevew deeptht armory com maple street without safe and free abortion women are santa cruz ca organ surrogates to unwanted parasites real men would never accept organ slavery and will protect women
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re how many homosexuals are there in article apr mnemosyne cs du edu mbond nyx cs du edu mimi writes in article apr news acns nwu edu dmeier casbah acns n u edu douglas meier writes in article pkmo inng senator bedfellow mit edu wdstarr athena mit ed william december starr writes and what difference does it make if homosexuals should not be treated as equals with heterosexuals in the eyes of the law then it doesn t matter if they comprise an overwhelming majority of the population and if they should then it doesn t matter if numerically they re only an infinitesimal minority right and if it makes no difference then shoving a false number down my throa shouldn t be a high priority after all why should a minority group ne d to inflate their numbers in order to justify the rights they claim they des rve i e extra privileges they ask for if someone beats up a homosexual he should get charged for assault and battery why must we add gay bashing to the list isn t this a sort of double jeopardy or am i just being a fascist again douglas c meier this space for rent northwestern university acns this university is too commie lib pinko to have these views dmeier casbah acns nwu edu you know i have thought about the issue of if someone beats up a homosexual or a black person etc should the crime be specified as something special shit beating up anybody regardless of race and sexual orientation should be a very serious crime if you pick out those crimes which are committed against the opposite sex different race or a different sexual orientation is this a form of favoring those groups over other groups hmm i mean i think that a crime committed against all people should be treated the same but i know that there are many people out there who are very prejudice against people who are different than they are and perhaps hate crimes laws are the only way to punish the bastards appropriately but why should a person who commits a crime against a wealthy protestant white by a wealthy protestant white be treated on a lower level isn t this discrimination against the wealthy white person hmm any input out there as a black person i here about all sorts of stories where fellow blacks are persecuted and beat up because of their race this really tears me up but a crime against a white by a white should also be treated as a heinous crime please respond i would like to hear what other views are out ther ciao mimi the federal government has used such laws to allow mutliple charges in order to prevent more crimes than would nromally occur just from two people being pissed off at each other the federal government has an interest in the intent of the perpetrators in the pursuit of preventing violations of civil rights it s the way they broke the back of the klan by putting a lot of people away for a very long time for harrassing blacks specifically it is a principle that has been well recognized as constitutionally valid since over years ago it has been used whenever a select group was getting bashed or harrassed more than any other person would just for being part of a minority it is the only way we made the defeat of the south stick after the civil war people who harrassed free blacks when normally they wouldn t find themselves harrassing just anyone walking around were expeditiously tried and jailed for to years until nobody wanted to try it anymore now with the th amendment guarantee of equal protection under the law the law can use multiple crime and severe penalty involving intent as much as is needed to protect even one human that is a hated minority to somebody they can call out the national guard just for them as they did the school girls in alabama during desegregation in the s and the president can nationalize the state militia and turn the guns of the militia that were being used to bar blacks right around to point at the thousands in the crowd with an order to shoot that they would have to obey or face possible death by firing squad under the uniform code of military justice for failing to obey a direct order while under arms and by god they did those southern boys turned right around an fixed bayonets and the governor was left standing and was arrested by the federal marshalls that had brought the order to nationalize the guard and that s why we need such an ability in federal jurisdiction rsw richard steven walz rstevew deeptht armory com maple street without safe and free abortion women are santa cruz ca organ surrogates to unwanted parasites real men would never accept organ slavery and will protect women
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