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re israel s expansion in article apr das harvard edu adam endor uucp adam shostack writes in article apr vm mcgill ca b ha b ha musicb mcgill ca writes is israel s occupation of southern lebanon temporary israel has repeatedly stated that it will leave lebanon when the lebanese government can provide guarantees that israel will not be attacked from lebanese soil and when the syrians leave not acceptable syria and lebanon have a right to determine if they wish to return to the situation prior to the french invasion where they were both part of the same mandate territory read colony israel has no right to determine what happens in lebanon invading another country because you consider them a threat is precisely the way that almost all wars of aggression have started is israel s occupation of the west bank gaza and golan temporary the three are very different issues israel has stated repeatedly that it will not give up the whole golan but may be willing to give part of it to syria as part of a peace agreement again territorial expansion by force israel has already annexed areas taken over in the war these areas are not occupied but disputed since there is no legitamate governing body citizenship was given to those residents in annexed areas who wanted citizenship the un defines them as occupied they are recognised as such by every nation on earth excluding one small caribean island israel should keep control of parts of the west bank imho the parts that should be kept are the westernmost mountain ridge which contain few arab towns and many suburbs as well as overlooking the city of tel aviv the eastern mountain ridge should be abandonded this is where most of the arabs live and it is less militarily relevant israel should also maintain a presence in the jordan valley so the adam thinks that peace is possible with continued occupation and a continued military presence that is a completely unsustainable situation because the usa is bankrupt and simply cannot afford to finance the israeli ecconomy any more there is no money for such an occupation if so for those of you who support it why were so many settlers moved into the territories if it is not temporary let s hear it there are a number of reasons for people to move they were not moved but chose to move into disputed areas note that since these moves were made by free willed human beings not settlers i will address two aspects of your question why the government would allow or encourage them to move and second why they did move they were moved in as part of a deliberate policy to prevent the return of the occupied territories machiavelli described the reasoning in the prince the clear intention was to create a constituency which the likud beleived could not be deprived of the land stolen from the indigenous population the pretexts under which the settlers aquired land was through the redefinition of much land used in common as public land the assertion that the village common on which the village depends for food belongs to an invader simply because no individual has title is clearly an excuse when the land is used to build a condominium for aliens brought in to occupy the land for a foreign power there is a clear breach of the geneva convention which stipulates that land use in occupied territories must not be changed no amount of self justifying on the part of likud and hard linner appologists will change the fact that the majority of world governments and all of those that actually have any power have condemned this practice the government had a number of reasons for encouraging people to move across the green line they included security and politics the first reason was security a large jewish presense makes it difficult for terrorists to infiltrate a jewish settlements also act as fortresses in times of war theyu also are a liability we are talking about civilian encampments that would last no more than hours against tanks a second reason was political creating settlements brought the arabs to the negotiation table had the creation of new towns and cities gone on another several years there would be no place left in israel where there was an arab majority there would have been no land left that could be called arab don t fool yourself it was the gulf war that brought the israelis to the negotiating table once their us backers had a secure base in the gulf they insrtructed shamir to negotiate or else if the creation of settlements had gone on any longer the usa would have cut the money supply the fact that there are a hundered thousands jews in place changes the face of any peace settlement and restricts what land can be given away not at all they can chose to live in an arab state or return to israel some of the communites created were religious they built their neighborhoods in areas where there were jews until the riots of the s and s there are communities like this in hebron gaza and all over there are also communities built near religious sites the existence of a comunity does not give the right for another country to annexe territory not in bosnia not in the west bank the point is there are many reasons people moved over the green line and many reasons the government wanted them to whatever status is negotiated for disputed territories it will not be an all or nothing deal new boundaries will be drawn up by negotiation not be the results of a war unless the new boundaries drawn up are those of there will be no peace araffat has precious little authority to agree to anything else the real issue is not the land treaty but the trade treaty since the palestinians will remain heavily dependent on israel indefinitely it is this that will be the guarantor of peace another factor will be the return of lands confiscated by the israeli state within israel and the dismantling of the shadow structures which allow discrimination against non jews within what is nominaly a secular state the irony is that in return for a guarantee that the palestinian state has a non descrimination law in order to protect the remaining settlers the israeli state is going to be forced inot the same position this will mean outlawing of discrimination such as that which prevents arabs from buying or using much of the land phill hallam baker
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about this center for policy research i have read numerous posts over a period of several months by this anti israel fanatic hiding in the shadow of the respectable sounding name of the center for policy research obviously it is no research center of any kind unless researching published documents to find material to use against israel makes it so labeling a propaganda mill a research center is not surprising in itself that is simply part of the propaganda process i was curious if anyone knew who this anti israel fanatic hiding behind his phoney research center name is is he an arab is he some typical anti semite hiding behind a veneer of anti zionism is he some jew who perhaps lived in israel and just couldn t make it there and is now taking his failure out on israel let s shed some light on this clown once and for all it will help put his nonsense in the proper perspective and the readers of this group who are more interested in fact than in anti israel hyperbola can ignore this junk
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news you may have missed apr news you may have missed apr not because you were too busy but because israelists in the us media spiked it those intrepid israeli soldiers israeli soldiers have sexually taunted arab women in the occupied gaza strip during the three week long closure that has sealed palestinians off from the jewish state palestinian sources said on sunday the incidents occurred in the town of khan younis and involved soldiers of the golani brigade who have been at the centre of house to house raids for palestinian activists during the closure which was imposed on the strip and occupied west bank five days ago girls at the al khansaa secondary said a group of naked soldiers taunted them yelling come and kiss me when the girls fled the soldiers threw empty bottles at them on saturday a group of soldiers opened their shirts and pulled down their pants when they saw girls from al khansaa walking home from school parents are considering keeping their daughters home from the all girls school the same day soldiers harassed two passing schoolgirls after a youth escaped from them at a boys secondary school deputy principal srur abu jamea said they shouted abusive language at the girls backed them against a wall and put their arms around them when teacher hamdan abu hajras intervened the soldiers kicked him and beat him with the butts of their rifles on tuesday troops stopped a car driven by abdel azzim qdieh a practising moslem and demanded he kiss his female passenger qdieh refused the soldiers hit him and the year old passenger kissed him to stop the beating on friday soldiers entered the home of zamno abu ealyan blindfolded him and his wife put a music tape on a recorder and demanded they dance as the elderly couple danced the soldiers slipped away the coupled continued dancing until their grandson came in and asked what was happening the army said it was checking the reports israeli troops bar christians from jerusalem israeli troops prevented christian arabs from entering jerusalem on thursday to celebrate the traditional mass of the last supper two arab priests from the greek orthodox church led some worshippers in prayer at a checkpoint separating the occupied west bank from jerusalem after soldiers told them only people with army issued permits could enter right now our brothers are celebrating mass in the church of the holy sepulchre and we were hoping to be able to join them in prayer said father george makhlouf of the ramallah parish israel sealed off the occupied lands two weeks ago after a spate of palestinian attacks against jews the closure cut off arabs in the west bank and gaza strip from jerusalem their economic spiritual and cultural centre father nicola akel said christians did not want to suffer the humiliation of requesting permits to reach holy sites makhlouf said the closure was discriminatory allowing jews free movement to take part in recent passover celebrations while restricting christian celebrations yesterday we saw the jews celebrate passover without any interruption but we cannot reach our holiest sites he said an israeli officer interrupted makhlouf s speech demanding to see his identity card before ordering the crowd to leave if you are as revolted at this as i am drop israel s best friend email and let him know what you think compuserve com via compuserve clintonpz aol com via america online clinton hq campaign org via mci mail tell em arf sent ya if you are tired of learning about american foreign policy from what is effectively israeli controlled media i highly recommend checking out the washington report a free sample copy is available by calling the american education trust at tell em arf sent you js
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re investment in yehuda and shomron in article horenc lduz se netcom com horen netcom com jonathan b horen writes while i applaud investing of money in yehuda shomron v chevel azza in order to create jobs for their residents i find it deplorable that this has never been an active policy of any israeli administration since with regard to their jewish residents past governments found funds to subsidize cheap read affordable housing and the requisite infrastructure but where was the investment for creating industry which would have generated income and jobs the investment was there in the form of huge tax breaks and employer benfits you are overlooking the difference that these could have made to any company part of the problem was that few industries were interested in political settling as much as profit after years yehuda and shomron remain barren bereft of even middle sized industries and the jewish settlements are sterile bedroom communities havens for in the main israelis both secular and religious who work in tel aviv or jerusalem but cannot afford to live in either city or their surrounding suburbs true which leads to the obvious question should any investment have been made there at the taxpayer s expense obviously the answer was and still is a resounding no shai guday stealth bombers os software engineer thinking machines corp the winged ninjas of the skies cambridge ma
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re israel s expansion in article apr vm mcgill ca b ha b ha musicb mcgill ca writes just a couple of questions for the pro israeli lobby out there is israel s occupation of southern lebanon temporary for mr stein i am working on a proof for you that israel is diverting water to the jordan river away from lebanese territory yes it is as has been evidenced by the previous two stages of withdrawal from the area and by the reductions in troops currently the troops are kept at a level consistent with light and armored patrols no permanent installations have been built in the area nor are any planned as to the prodigal water question you can continue to waste your time looking for non existent proof or you can accept the testimony of people here some lebanese who have acknowledged that they know of no evidence for these allegations is israel s occupation of the west bank gaza and golan temporary if so for those of you who support it why were so many settlers moved into the territories if it is not temporary let s hear it it depends which of those territories you refer to in general settlers were moved into the territories because at the time in the context of the situations it seemed the logical move this is not to say that views don t change or that mistakes are not made currently i would say that the only disputed territory that does not appear to be temporary is that of eastern and northern jerusalem steve shai guday stealth bombers os software engineer thinking machines corp the winged ninjas of the skies cambridge ma
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re israel s expansion because the usa is bankrupt and simply cannot afford to finance the israeli ecconomy any more there is no money for such an occupation don t fool yourself it was the gulf war that brought the israelis to the negotiating table once their us backers had a secure base in the gulf they insrtructed shamir to negotiate or else phill hallam baker oh why do you expose your ignorance the us has been running on debt for the past four generations and has still financed what it pleases and after the gulf war israel could do whatever it wanted after not decimating iraq after the scud attacks it was encouraged but by no means forced to negotiate mr baker to address all of your points would be impossible but in a nutshell it is hypocritical for you to attack israel s presence in lebanon without attacking syria syrian occupation has been hostile and amounts to annexation israel s is clearly defensive if it were not defensive you would see all of lebanon occupied and governed by israel but that is not what israel wants pete
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re from israeli press madness before getting excited and implying that i am posting fabrications i would suggest the readers to consult the newspaper in question tahnks elias
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unconventional peace proposal from center for policy research cpr subject unconventional peace proposal a unconventional proposal for peace in the middle east by elias davidsson the following proposal is based on the following assumptions fundamental human rights such as the right to life to education to establish a family and have children to human dignity the right to free movement to free expression etc are more important to human existence that the rights of states in the event of a conflict between basic human rights and rights of collectivities basic human rights should prevail between the collectivities defining themselves as jewish israeli and palestinian arab however labelled an unresolved conflict exists this conflict has caused great sufferings for millions of people it moreover poisons relations between communities peoples and nations each year the united states expends billions of dollars in economic and military aid to the conflicting parties attempts to solve the israeli arab conflict by traditional political means have failed as long as the conflict is perceived as that between two distinct ethnical religious communities peoples which claim the land there is no just nor peaceful solution possible love between human beings can be capitalized for the sake of peace and justice when people love they share having stated my assumptions i will now state my proposal a fund should be established which would disburse grants for each child born to a couple where one partner is israeli jew and the other palestinian arab to be entitled for a grant a couple will have to prove that one of the partners possesses or is entitled to israeli citizenship under the law of return and the other partner although born in areas under current isreali control is not entitled to such citizenship under the law of return for the first child the grant will amount to for the second the third child for each child for each subsequent child the grant will amount to for each child the fund would be financed by a variety of sources which have shown interest in promoting a peaceful solution to the israeli arab conflict including the u s government jewish and christian organizations in the u s and a great number of governments and international organizations the emergence of a considerable number of mixed marriages in israel palestine all of whom would have relatives on both sides of the divide would make the conflict lose its ethnical and unsoluble core and strengthen the emergence of a truly civil society the existence of a strong mixed stock of people would also help the integration of israeli society into the middle east in a graceful manner objections to this proposal will certainly be voiced i will attempt to identify some of these the idea of providing financial incentives to selected forms of partnership and marriage is not conventional however it is based on the concept of affirmative action which is recognized as a legitimate form of public policy to reverse the perverse effects of segregation and discrimination international law clearly permits affirmative action when it is aimed at reducing racial discrimination and segregation it may be objected that the israeli palestinian conflict is not primarily a religious or ethnical conflict but that it is a conflict between a colonialist settler society and an indigenous colonized society that can only regain its freedom by armed struggle this objection is based on the assumption that the enemy is not zionism as ideology and practice but israeli jewish society and its members which will have to be defeated this objection has no merit because it does not fulfill the first two assumptions concerning the primacy of fundamental human rights over collective rights see above fundamentalist jews would certainly object to the use of financial incentives to encourage mixed marriages from their point of view the continued existence of a specific jewish people overrides any other consideration be it human love peace of human rights the president of the world jewish congress edgar bronfman reflected this view a few years ago in an interview he gave to der spiegel a german magazine he called the increasing assimilation of jews in the world a calamity comparable in its effects only with the holocaust this objection has no merit either because it does not fulfill the first two assumptions see above it may objected that only a few people in israel palestine would request such grants and that it would thus not serve its purpose to this objection one might respond that although it is not possible to determine with certainty the effect of such a proposal the existence of such a fund would help mixed couples to resist the pressure of their respective societies and encourage young couples to reject fundamentalist and racist attitudes it may objected that such a fund would need great sums to bring about substantial demographic changes this objection has merits however it must be remembered that huge sums more than billion are expended each year by the united states government and by u s organizations to maintain an elusive peace in the middle east through armaments a mere fraction of these sums would suffice to launch the above proposal and create a more favorable climate towards the existence of mixed marriages in israel palestine thus encouraging the emergence of a non segregated society in that worn torn land i would be thankful for critical comments to the above proposal as well for any dissemination of this proposal for meaningful discussion and enrichment elias davidsson post box reykjavik iceland
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serdar you are such a loser system fourd com phone cute quote being a computer means never having to say you re sorry
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serdar hey serdar what are you retarded system fourd com phone cute quote being a computer means never having to say you re sorry
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serdar what an anal retentive you are wimp system fourd com phone cute quote being a computer means never having to say you re sorry
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re binyamin netanyahu on cnn tonight i have not seen but i guess would not liked it to me he represents the worst of both american and israeli politics but this is a matter of taste as for the famous confession it is currently believed at least by some people that all this adultry affair was just invented by him in order to impress the likkud voters and poor jealous hamazah and appear as a real man oded maler lgi imag bat d b p x grenoble france phone fax e mail maler imag fr
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re armenia says it could shoot down turkish planes in article apr ee rochester edu terziogl ee rochester edu esin terzioglu writes in article apr urartu sdpa org dbd urartu sdpa org david davidian writes armenia says it could shoot down turkish planes ermenistan kasiniyor let me translate for everyone else before the public traslation service gets into it armenia is getting itchy esin let me clearify mr turkish armenia is not getting itchy she is simply letting the world know that she will no longer sit there quiet and let turks get away with their famous tricks armenians do remember of the turkish invasion of the greek island of cypress while the world simply watched
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get a life hey serdar what nationality are you anyway you are the supreme geek of geekdom of the usenet you are laeding a totally useless and futile life on your computer mr wimpy you are the epitamy of a coward i can predict that you will spend the rest of your useless wastefull and pitifull life on the usenet what a wasted life system fourd com phone cute quote being a computer means never having to say you re sorry
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accounts of anti armenian human right violatins in azerbaijan accounts of anti armenian human right violatins in azerbaijan prelude to current events in nagorno karabakh there were about six burned people in there and the small corpse of a burned child it was gruesome i suffered a tremendous shock there were about ten people there but the doctor on duty said that because of the numbers they were being taken to baku there was a woman s corpse there too she had been well there was part of a body there a hacked off part of a woman s body it was something terrible deposition of roman aleksandrovich gambarian born senior engineer sumgait automotive transport production association resident at building b apartment microdistrict no sumgait azerbaijan what happened in sumgait was a great tragedy an awful tragedy for us the armenian people and for all of mankind a genocide of armenians took place during peacetime and it was a great tragedy for me personally because i lost my father in those days he was still young born in on that day february we were at home of course we had heard that there was unrest in town my younger brother aleksandr had told us about it but we didn t think we thought that everything would happen outdoors that they wouldn t go into people s apartments about five o clock we saw a large crowd near the kosmos movie theater in our microdistrict we were sitting at home watching television we go out on the balcony and see the crowd pour into mir street this is right near downtown next to the airline ticket office our house is right nearby that day there was a group of policeman with shields there they threw rocks at those policemen then they moved off in the direction of our building they burned a motorcycle in our courtyard and started shouting for armenians to come out of the building we switched off the light as it turns out their signal was just the opposite to turn on the light that meant that it was an azerbaijani home we of course didn t know and thought that if they saw lights on they would come to our apartment suddenly there s pounding on the door we go to the door all four of us there were four of us in the apartment father mother my younger brother aleksandr and i he was born in my father was a veteran of world war ii and had fought in china and in the soviet far east he was a pilot we went to the door and they started pounding on it harder breaking it down with axes we start to talk to them in azerbaijani what s going on what s happened they say armenians get out of here we don t open the door we say if we have to leave we ll leave we ll leave tomorrow they say no leave now get out of here armenian dogs get out of here by now they ve broken the door both on the lock and the hinge sides we hold them off as best we can my father and i on one side and my mother and brother on the other we had prepared ourselves we had several hammers and an axe in the apartment and grabbed what we could find to defend ourselves they broke in the door and when the door gave way we held it for another half hour no neighbors no police and no one from the city government came to our aid the whole time we held the door they started to smash the door on the lock side first with an axe and then with a crowbar when the door gave way they tore it off its hinges sasha hit one of them with the axe the axe flew out of his hands they also had axes crowbars pipes and special rods made from armature shafts one of them hit my father in the head the pressure from the mob was immense when we retreated into the room one of them hit my mother too in the left part of her face my brother sasha and i fought back of course sasha is quite strong and hot tempered he was the judo champion of sumgait we had hammers in our hands and we injured several of the bandits in the heads and in the eyes all that went on but they the injured ones fell back and others came to take their places there were many of them the door fell down at an angle the mob tried to remove the door so as to go into the second room and to continue to finish us off father brought skewers and gave them to sasha and me we flew at them when we saw father bleeding his face was covered with blood he had been wounded in the head and his whole face was bloody we just threw ourselves on them when we saw that we threw ourselves at the mob and drove back the ones in the hall drove them down to the third floor we came out on the landing but a group of the bandits remained in one of the rooms they were smashing all the furniture in there having closed the door behind them we started tearing the door off to chase away the remaining ones or finish them then a man an imposing man of about an azerbaijani came in when he was coming in father fell down and mother flew to him and started to cry out i jumped out onto the balcony and started calling an ambulance but then the mob started throwing stones through the windows of our veranda and kitchen we live on the fourth floor and no one came i went into the room it seemed to me that this man was the leader of the group he was respectably dressed in a hat and a trench coat with a fur collar and he addressed my mother in azerbaijani what s with you woman why are you shouting what happened why are you shouting like that she says what do you mean what happened you killed somebody my father was a musician he played the clarinet he played at many weddings armenian and azerbaijani he played for many years everyone knew him mother says the person who you killed played at thousands of azerbaijani weddings he brought so much joy to people and you killed that person he says you don t need to shout stop shouting and when they heard the voice of this man the to people who were in the other room opened the door and started running out we chased after them but they ran away that man left too as we were later told downstairs one of them told the others i don t know if it was from fright or what told them that we had firearms even though we only fought with hammers and an axe we raced to father and started to massage his heart but it was already too late we asked the neighbors to call an ambulance the ambulance never came although we waited for it all evening and all through the night somewhere around midnight about policemen came they informed us they were from khachmas they said we heard that a group was here at your place you have our condolences they told us not to touch anything and left father lay in the room so we stayed home each of us took a hammer and a knife we sat at home well we say if they descend on us again we ll defend ourselves somewhere around one o clock in the morning two people came from the sumgait procuracy investigators they say leave everything just how it is we re coming back here soon and will bring an expert who will record and photograph everything then people came from the republic procuracy too but no one helped us take father away the morning came and the neighbors arrived we wanted to take father away somehow we called the procuracy and the police a couple of times but no one came we called an ambulance and nobody came then one of the neighbors said that the bandits were coming to our place again and we should hide we secured the door somehow or other we left father in the room and went up to the neighbor s the excesses began again in the morning the bandits came in several vehicles zil panel trucks and threw themselves out of the vehicles like a landing force near the center of town our building was located right there a crowd formed then they started fighting with the soldiers then in buildings and that s next to the airline ticket office they started breaking into armenian apartments destroying property and stealing the armenians weren t at home they had managed to flee and hide somewhere and again they poured in the direction of our building they were shouting that there were some armenians left on the fourth floor meaning us they re up there still up there let s go kill them they broke up all the furniture remaining in the two rooms threw it outside and burned it in large fires we were hiding one floor up something heavy fell sasha threw himself toward the door shouting that it was probably father they had thrown father were defiling the corpse probably throwing it in the fire going to burn it i heard it and the sound was kind of hollow and i said no that s from some of the furniture mother and i pounced on sasha and stopped him somehow and calmed him down the mob left somewhere around eight o clock they smashed open the door and went into the apartment of the neighbors across from us they were also armenians they had left for another city the father of the neighbor who was concealing us came and said are you crazy why are you hiding armenians don t you now they re checking all the apartments they could kill you and them and to us come on leave this apartment we went down to the third floor to some other neighbors at first the man didn t want to let us in but then one of his sons asked him and he relented we stayed there until eleven o clock at night we heard the sound of motors the neighbors said that it was armored personnel carriers we went downstairs there was a light on in the room where we left father in the other rooms as we found out later all the chandeliers had been torn down they left only one bulb the bulb was burning which probably was a signal they had agreed on because there was a light burning in every apartment in our microdistrict where there had been a pogrom with the help of the soldiers we made it to the city party committee and were saved our salvation my mother s my brother s and mine was purely accidental because as we later found out from the neighbors someone in the crowd shouted that we had firearms up there well we fought but we were only able to save mother we couldn t save father we inflicted many injuries on the bandits some of them serious but others came to take their places we were also wounded there was blood and we were scratched all over we got our share it was a miracle we survived we were saved by a miracle and the troops and if troops hadn t come to sumgait the slaughter would have been even greater probably all the armenians would have been victims of the genocide through an acquaintance at the city party committee i was able to contact the leadership of the military unit that was brought into the city and at their orders we were assigned special people to accompany us experts we went to pick up father s corpse we took it to the morgue this was about two o clock in the morning it was already march it was raining very hard and it was quite cold and we were wearing only our suits when my brother and i carried father into the morgue we saw the burned and disfigured corpses there were about six burned people in there and the small corpse of a burned child it was gruesome i suffered a tremendous shock there were about ten people there but the doctor on duty said that because of the numbers they were being taken to baku there was a woman s corpse there too she had been well there was part of a body there a hacked off part of a woman s body it was something terrible the morgue was guarded by the landing force the child that had been killed was only ten or twelve years old it was impossible to tell if it was a boy or a girl because the corpse was burned there was a man there too several men you couldn t tell anything because their faces were disfigured they were in such awful condition now two and a half months have passed every day i recall with horror what happened in the city of sumgait every day my father and the death of my father and how we fought and the people s sorrow and especially the morgue i still want to say that years have passed since soviet power was established and up to the very last minute we could not conceive of what happened in sumgait it will go down in history i m particularly surprised that the mob wasn t even afraid of the troops they even fought the soldiers many soldiers were wounded the mob threw fuel mixtures onto the armored personnel carriers setting them on fire they weren t afraid they were so sure of their impunity that they attacked our troops i saw the clashes on february near the airline ticket office right across from our building and that mob was fighting with the soldiers the inhabitants of some of the buildings also azerbaijanis threw rocks at the soldiers from windows balconies even cinder blocks and glass tanks they weren t afraid of them i say they were sure of their impunity when we were at the neighbors and when they were robbing homes near the airline ticket office i called the police at number and said that they were robbing armenian apartments and burning homes and they told me that they knew that they were being burned during those days no one from the police department came to anyone s aid no one came to help us either to our home even though perhaps they could have come and saved us as we later found out the mob was given free vodka and drugs near the bus station rocks were distributed in all parts of town to be thrown and used in fighting so i think all of it was arranged in advance they even knew in which buildings and apartments the armenians lived on which floors they had lists the bandits you can tell that the operation was planned in advance thanks of course to our troops to the country s leadership and to the leadership of the ministry of defense for helping us thanks to the russian people because the majority of the troops were russians and the troops suffered losses too i want to express this gratitude in the name of my family and in the name of all armenians and in the name of all sumgait armenians for coming in time and averting terrible things worse would have happened if that mob had not been stopped on time at present an investigation is being conducted on the part of the ussr procuracy i want to say that those bandits should receive the severest possible punishment because if they don t the tragedy the genocide could happen again everyone should see that the most severe punishment is meted out for such deeds very many bandits and hardened hooligans took part in the unrest in the mass disturbances the mobs were huge at present not all of them have been caught very few of them have been i think judging by the newspaper reports there were around people near our building alone that s how many people took part in the pogrom of our building all in all they should all receive the most severe punishment so that others see that retribution awaits those who perform such acts may yerevan reference the sumgait tragedy pogroms against armenians in soviet azerbaijan volume i eyewitness accounts edited by samuel shahmuradian forward by yelena bonner published by aristide d caratzas ny pages david davidian dbd urartu sdpa org how do we explain turkish troops on s d p a center for regional studies the armenian border when we can t p o box even explain cambridge ma turkish mp march
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re unconventional peace proposal in article igc apc org center for policy research cpr igc apc org writes from center for policy research cpr subject unconventional peace proposal a unconventional proposal for peace in the middle east by elias davidsson this could be accomplished by other criteria one must remember that children often bring stress into households as an alternative one could consider financial incentives for every sexual act performed by two partners of different ethnic backgrounds the plan could be entitled peace income sexual security or piss for short every time an israeli gets screwed by a palestinian or visa versa they would be eligible for income in keeping with the spirit of the times condoms would be a tax deductible expense this policy does not discriminate on a gender basis nor would it apply to domestic animals of either nationality joint palestinan israeli teams would be obligated to ensure that all acts were voluntary and promptly rewarded the teams of palestinian israel morals patrols or pimps would receive a percentage of the financial income in order to encourage their participation and add to their incentive in locating suitable candidates i would be thankful for critical comments to the above proposal as well for any dissemination of this proposal for meaningful shouldn t that be insemination elias davidsson post box reykjavik iceland shai guday stealth bombers os software engineer thinking machines corp the winged ninjas of the skies cambridge ma
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re news you will miss apr arf genesis mcs com jack schmidling writes yigal et al sue adl why do you title this news you will miss there have been at least three front page stories on it in the l a times i wouldn t exactly call that a media cover up js samuel mossad special agent id media spiking mind control division los angeles offices pratice safe signature prevent dangerous signature virii guildenstern our names shouted in a certain dawn a message a summons there must have been a moment at the beginning where we could have said no but somehow we missed it
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re was go hezbollah in article apr src honeywell com amehdi src honeywell com hossien amehdi writes the way i see it israelis and arabs have not been able to achieve peace after almost years of fighting because of the following two major reasons arab governments are not really representative of their people currently most of their leaders are stupid and or not independent and or dictators true but maybe not the worst possible see algeria israeli government is arrogant and none comprising this was true and i may add the adjective stupid until the intifada since then no serious israeli leader including shamir really thinks the the occupied territories worth the trouble the only question became the question of price and other quantitative detail the best thing the palestinians can do for themselves these days is to stop the intifada and try to live as normally as possible i know it s hard under occupation otherwise people might think that five years of stone throwing as justified as it may be has caused the palestinians an irreversible damage that prevents them from running a normal state when the time comes currently it serves no purpose and it s just a waste of human life and economic resources oded maler lgi imag bat d b p x grenoble france phone fax e mail maler imag fr
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re news you may have missed apr in article qu op genesis mcs com arf genesis mcs com jack schmidling writes news you may have missed apr not because you were too busy but because israelists in the us media spiked it those intrepid israeli soldiers israeli soldiers have sexually taunted arab women in the occupied gaza strip during the three week long closure that has sealed palestinians off from the jewish state palestinian sources said on sunday the incidents occurred in the town of khan younis and involved soldiers of the golani brigade who have been at the centre of house to house raids for palestinian activists during the closure which was imposed on the strip and occupied west bank five days ago girls at the al khansaa secondary said a group of naked soldiers taunted them yelling come and kiss me when the girls fled the soldiers threw empty bottles at them on saturday a group of soldiers opened their shirts and pulled down their pants when they saw girls from al khansaa walking home from school parents are considering keeping their daughters home from the all girls school the same day soldiers harassed two passing schoolgirls after a youth escaped from them at a boys secondary school deputy principal srur abu jamea said they shouted abusive language at the girls backed them against a wall and put their arms around them when teacher hamdan abu hajras intervened the soldiers kicked him and beat him with the butts of their rifles on tuesday troops stopped a car driven by abdel azzim qdieh a practising moslem and demanded he kiss his female passenger qdieh refused the soldiers hit him and the year old passenger kissed him to stop the beating on friday soldiers entered the home of zamno abu ealyan blindfolded him and his wife put a music tape on a recorder and demanded they dance as the elderly couple danced the soldiers slipped away the coupled continued dancing until their grandson came in and asked what was happening the army said it was checking the reports israeli troops bar christians from jerusalem israeli troops prevented christian arabs from entering jerusalem on thursday to celebrate the traditional mass of the last supper two arab priests from the greek orthodox church led some worshippers in prayer at a checkpoint separating the occupied west bank from jerusalem after soldiers told them only people with army issued permits could enter right now our brothers are celebrating mass in the church of the holy sepulchre and we were hoping to be able to join them in prayer said father george makhlouf of the ramallah parish israel sealed off the occupied lands two weeks ago after a spate of palestinian attacks against jews the closure cut off arabs in the west bank and gaza strip from jerusalem their economic spiritual and cultural centre father nicola akel said christians did not want to suffer the humiliation of requesting permits to reach holy sites makhlouf said the closure was discriminatory allowing jews free movement to take part in recent passover celebrations while restricting christian celebrations yesterday we saw the jews celebrate passover without any interruption but we cannot reach our holiest sites he said an israeli officer interrupted makhlouf s speech demanding to see his identity card before ordering the crowd to leave if you are as revolted at this as i am drop israel s best friend email and let him know what you think compuserve com via compuserve clintonpz aol com via america online clinton hq campaign org via mci mail tell em arf sent ya if you are tired of learning about american foreign policy from what is effectively israeli controlled media i highly recommend checking out the washington report a free sample copy is available by calling the american education trust at tell em arf sent you js i took your advice and ordered a copy of the washinton report i heartily recommend it to all pro israel types for the following reasons it is an excellent absorber of excrement i use it to line the bottom of my parakeet s cage a negative side effect is that my bird now has a somewhat warped view of the mideast it makes a great april fool s joke i e give it to someone who knows nothing about the middle east and then say april fools anyway i plan to call them up every month just to keep getting those free sample magazines you know how cheap we jews are btw when you call them tell em barf sent you just kidding ben
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re was go hezbollah in apr ncsu edu hernlem chess ncsu edu brad hernlem wrote in article bce news service uci edu tclock orion oac uci edu tim clock writes in article apr yuma acns colostate edu bh lance colostate edu writes it is not a terrorist camp as you and the israelis like to view the villages they are small communities with kids playing soccer in the streets women preparing lunch men playing cards etc some young men usually aged between to years are members of the lebanese resistance even the inhabitants of the village do not know who these are they are secretive about it but most people often suspect who they are and what they are up to these young men are supported financially by iran most of the time they sneak arms and ammunitions into the occupied zone where they set up booby traps for israeli patrols every time an israeli soldier is killed or injured by these traps israel retalliates by indiscriminately bombing villages of their own choosing often killing only innocent civilians this a tried and true method utilized by guerilla and terrorists groups to conduct operations in the midst of the local populace thus forcing the opposing state to possible harm innocent civilians in their search or in order to avoid the deaths of civilians abandon the search certainly the people who use the population for cover are also to blaim for dragging the innocent civilians into harm s way are you suggesting that when guerillas use the population for cover israel should totally back down so the easiest way to get away with attacking another is to use an innocent as a shield and hope that the other respects innocent lives tell me tim what are these guerillas doing wrong assuming that they are using civilians for cover are they not killing soldiers in their country if the buffer zone is to prevent attacks on israel is it not working why is it further neccessary for israeli guns to pound lebanese villages why not just kill those who try to infiltrate the buffer zone you see there is more to the shelling of the villages it is called retaliation getting back getting even it doesn t make sense to shell the villages the least it shows is a reckless disregard by the israeli government for the lives of civilians please clarify your standards for rules of engagement as i understand it israelis are at all times and under all circumstances fair targets their opponents are legitimate targets only when mirandized or some such i m sure that this makes perfect sense if you grant a priori that israelis are the black hats and that therefore killing them is automatically a good thing go hezbollah the corollary is that the hezbollah are the white hats and that whatever they do is a good thing and the israelis only prove themselves to be bad guys by attacking them this sounds suspiciously like a hockey fan i know who cheers when one of the players on his team uses his stick to permanently rearrange an opponent s face and curses the ref for penalizing his side of course when it s different when the roles are reversed d c sessions speaking for myself note new network address dcs witsend tnet com author and everything else of tmail dos mail news shell
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why does us consider yigal arens to be a dangerous to humanity in article arens apr grl isi edu arens isi edu yigal arens writes los angeles times tuesday april p a the problem if transffering us government files about yigal arens and some other similar persons does or does not violate a federal or a local american law seemed to belong to some local american law forum not to this forum the readers of this forum seemed to be more interested in the contents of those files so it will be nice if yigal will tell us why do american authorities consider yigal arens to be dangerous why does the adl have an interest in that person if one does trust either the us government or the adl what an additional information should he send them gideon ehrlich
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re public service translation no i see that our retarded translator david is still writing things that don t make sense hey david i can see where you are may be one day we will have the chance to talk deeply about that freedom of speach of yours and you now killing or torture these things are only easy ways out i have different plans for you and all empty headeds like you lets get serious dave don t ever write bad things about turkish people or especially cyprus if i hear a word from you again that i consider to be a curse to my people i will retalliate muccccukkk timucin kaan timucin georgia institute of technology atlanta georgia uucp decvax hplabs ncar purdue rutgers gatech prism gt a internet gt a prism gatech edu
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argic i have one word for you loser system fourd com phone cute quote being a computer means never having to say you re sorry
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re investment in yehuda and shomron in article igc apc org cpr igc apc org center for policy research writes those who wish to learn something about the perversion of judaism should consult the masterly work by yehoshua harkabi who was many years the head of israeli intelligence and an opponent of the plo his your suggestion to learn something about the perversion of judaism from someone you claim has experience in israeli intelligence and the plo is like a suggestion to learn something about the conspiracy of sesame street from someone with experience in fashion design and pizza making latest book was published in english and includes a very detailed analysis of judeo nazism judeo nazism cpr you re in a league with barf shmidling himself you can take that as a compliment if you see it that way jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president
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re investment in yehuda and shomron in article apr das harvard edu adam endor uucp adam shostack writes i think house jews a reference to a person of jewish ancestry who issues statements for a company or organization that condemn judaism is perfectly sufficeint i believe that cpr is himself such a house jew jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president
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re armenia says it could shoot down turkish planes in article apr kpc com henrik quayle kpc com writes in article apr ee rochester edu terziogl ee rochester edu esin terzioglu writes cancellum let me clearify mr turkish armenia is not getting itchy she is simply letting the world know that she will no longer sit there quiet and let turks get away with their famous tricks armenians do remember of the turkish invasion of the greek island of cypress while the world simply watched it is more appropriate to address netters with their names as they appear in their signatures i failed to do so since you did not bother to sign your posting not only because it is the polite thing to do but also to avoid addressing ladies with mr as you have done secondly the island of which the name is more correctly spelled as cyprus has never been greek but rather it has been home to a bi communal society formed of greeks and turks it seems that you know as little about the history and the demography of the island as you know about the essence of turkey s military intervention to it under international agreements be that as it may an analogy between an act of occupation in history and what is going on today on azerbaijani land can only be drawn with the expansionist policy that armenia is now pursuing but i could agree that it is not for us to issue diagnoses to the political conduct of countries and promulgate them in such terminology as itchy bitchy onur yalcin
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re how many israeli soldiers does it take to kill a yr old child in article hm apr dooley cs brown edu hm cs brown edu harry mamaysky writes steel hal gnu ai mit edu nick steel writes q how many occupying israeli soldiers terrorists does it take to kill a year old native child a four two fasten his arms one shoots in the face and one writes up a false report can nick steel provide documentation for this alleged incident probably not he s just singing someone else s opera he s good too perhaps he should get the best supporting singer i can give you a q a account that is well documented just go back and reread some of the articles that appeared after this joke q how many antisemites does it take to come up with another anti israeli provocation on the net a just one he ll fabricate a lie and many more will applaud i would much prefer if mr steel would refrain from this kind of jokes in the future they re not just offensive they also have a very negative effect on the state of things between jews and arabs so thanks for nothing clown mike
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the futility and impotence of greek foreign policy there you go the greeks have been trying for over a year even though mr mitsotakis was threatening the ec that if macedonia was recognized that the honourable papandreou would be back well i guess the europeans pulled the plug eh theis is just one other example about the corruptness and the perversity of greek foreign policy objectives pity to those who have to live under the greek flag with these political decision makers more recognition for macedonia belgium germany and italy joined denmark on april in recognizing the republic of macedonia afp reports each is an ec member state greece which has blocked ec recognition of macedonia noted that such recognition does not facilitate negotiations between athens and skopje now underway in new york duncan perry rfe rl inc the day will come when reuters will write despite lengthy negotiations and numerous attempts to reunite the island the turkish republic of northern cyprus was recognized by your humble servant kubilay
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re was go hezbollah brad hernlem writes well you should have noted that i was cheering an attack on an israeli patrol inside lebanese territory while i was condemning the retaliatory shelling of lebanese villages by israeli and israeli backed forces my team you see was playing fair while the opposing team was rearranging the faces of the spectators in my team s viewing stands so to speak i think that you should try to find more sources of news about what goes on in lebanon and try to see through the propaganda there are no a priori black and white hats but one sure wonders how the idf can bombard villages in retaliation to pin point attacks on its soldiers in lebanon and then call the lebanese terrorists if the attack was justified or not is at least debatable but this is not the issue the issue is that you were cheering death read again your original article you find israeli government responsible for those dead soldiers that s a reasonable debatable point but feel satisfaction from dead bodies is not reasonable by any standards no matter how you try to justify it i may understand your frustration against israeli occupation in s lebanon but no matter what you say i can not understand your satisfaction for dead bodies i have a question for you let s assume a bosnian village inhabited by serbs untill a few years ago and later taken over by bosnian muslims the means are not very peaceful now do you enjoy serbs coming and killing all armed bosnian muslims i would not enjoy but i would not enjoy any dead bodies israelis lebanese or bosnians dorin
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re dir yassin was re no free man propaganda machine freeman with blood greetings from israel in article hm apr yoda cs brown edu hm cs brown edu harry mamaysky writes in article apr thunder mcrcim mcgill edu hasan mcrcim mcgill edu writes check menahem begin dairies published book you ll find accounts of the massacres there including deir yassen though with the numbers of massacred men children and women are greatly minimized there is no known writing directly attributable to menachem begin which admits a massacre at deir yassin thus hasan is wrong as per request of hasan from the revolt by menachem begin dell publishing ny pp apart from the military aspect there is a moral aspect to the story of dir yassin at that village whose name was publicized throughout the world both sides suffered heavy casualties we had four killed and nearly forty wounded the number of casualties was nearly forty percent of the total number of the attackers the arab troops suffered casualties neraly three times as heavy the fighting the word troops is unjustified there has never been any evidence that there were any regular or irregular arab forces in the village apart from the villagers defending themselves according to the haganah observer pa il the irgun lehi forces suffered a lot of casualties because they were incompetent soldiers when they ran into trouble securing the central part of the village a small group of palmach soldiers came and took it without a single casualty begin s failure to even mention the palmach is only one of the major inaccuracies to use a kind word in his account incidentally three times as heavy may be correct as there is serious evidence that the arab loss was closer to lives than to the oft quoted lives however note that begin compares wounded jews to dead arabs he fails to mention the number of wounded arabs guess why was thus very severe yet the hostile propaganda disseminated throughout the world deliberately ignored the fact that the civilian population of dir yassin was actually given a warning by us before the battle began one of our tenders carrying a loud speaker was stationed at the entrance to the village and it exhorted in arabic all women children and aged to leave their houses and to take shelter on the slopes of the hill by giving this humane warning our fighters threw away the element of complete surprise and thus increased their own risk in the ensuing battle as is thoroughly established by many sources the loudspeaker truck got stuck in a ditch too far from the village for it to provide a usueful warning a substantial number of the inhabitants obeyed the warning and they were unhurt a few did not leave their stone houses perhaps because of the confusion the fire of the enemy was murderous to which the number of our casualties bears eloquent testimony our men were compelled to fight for every house to overcome the enemy they used large numbers of hand grenades and the civilians who had disregarded our warnings suffered inevitable casualties the education which we gave our soldiers throughout the years of revolt was based on the observance of the traditional laws of war we never broke them unless the enemy first did so and thus forced us in accordance with the accepted custom of war to apply reprisals i am convinced too that our officers and men wished to avoid a single unnecessary casualty in the dir yassin battle but those who throw stones of denunciation at the conquerors of dir yassin would do well not to don the cloak of hypocrisy in connection with the capture of dir yassin the jewish agency found it necessary to send a letter of apology to abdullah whom mr ben gurion at a moment of great political emotion called the wise ruler who seeks the good of his people and this country the wise ruler whose mercenary forces demolished gush etzion and flung the bodies of its heroic defenders to birds of prey replied with feudal superciliousness he rejected the apology and replied that the jews were all to blame and that he did not believe in the existence of dissidents throughout the arab world and the world at large a wave of lying propaganda was let loose about jewish attrocities the enemy propaganda was designed to besmirch our name in the result it helped us panic overwhelmed the arabs of eretz israel kolonia village which had previously repulsed every attack of the haganah was evacuated overnight and fell without further fighting beit iksa was also evacuated these two places overlooked the main road and their fall together with the capture of kastel by the haganah made it possible to keep open the road to jerusalem in the rest of the country too the arabs began to flee in terror even before they clashed with jewish forces not what happened at dir yassin but what was invented about dir yassin helped to carve the way to our decisive victories on the battlefield the legend of dir yassin helped us in particular in the saving of tiberias and the conquest of haifa it is worth noting how begin disputes the standard myth that the palestinian arabs fled as part of a calculated plan a footnote from the revolt pp to counteract the loss of dir yassin a village of strategic importance arab headquarters at ramallah broadcast a crude atrocity story alleging a massacre by irgun troops of women and children in the village certain jewish officials fearing the irgun men as political rivals seized upon this arab gruel propaganda to smear the irgun an eminent rabbi was induced to reprimand the irgun before he had time to sift the truth out of evil however good came this arab propaganda spread a legend of terror amongst arabs and arab troops who were seized with panic at the mention of irgun soldiers the legend was worth half a dozen battalions to the forces of israel the dir yassin massacre lie is still propagated by jew haters all over the world apparently of israeli historians are jew haters in reference to denunciation of dir yassin by fellow jews i have previously posted quotations by irgun participants that totally destroys begin s whitewash i have no particular desire to post it yet again brendan normally bdm cs anu edu au
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re more on adl spying case in article arens apr grl isi edu arens isi edu yigal arens writes los angeles times tuesday april p a new details of extensive adl spy operation emerge san francisco to the outside world roy bullock was a small time art dealer who operated from his house in the castro district in reality he was an undercover spy who picked through garbage and amassed secret files for the anti defamation league for nearly years the anti defamation league a self described jewish defense and civil rights organization acknowledges it has long collected information on groups that are anti semitic extremist or racist the adl s fact finding division headed by irwinn suall in new york enjoys a reputation for thoroughness and has often shared its information with police agencies and journalists there is something almost comical in the fact that yigal arens is important enough to have the adl and g d knows who else sifting through his garbage which happens to be legal you throw it out it ain t yours any more this brings to mind a few possibilities other than the adl connection it is all in arens mind bullock may have been working for arens friend in the plo arens father or is it brother moshe arens former israeli defense minister was spying on him arens hired bullock to spy on him to get attention in any case who cares robert siegfried computer science dept saint peter s college jersey city nj siegfried r spcvxa spc edu
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re legality of the jewish purchase amir y rosenblatt writes sam zbib writes no one in his right mind would sell his freedom and dignity palestinians are no exception perhaps you heard about anti trust in the business world since we are debating the legality of a commercial transaction we must use the laws governing the guidelines and ethics of such transactions basic anti trust law says that while you can purchase ibm stocks for the purpose of investing you can not acquire a large number of those shares with the intent or controlling ibm you can do so only if you make your intentions clear apriori clearly the jews who purchased properties from palastenians had some designs they were not buying a dwelling or a real estate they were establishing a bridgehead for the european jews the palastenians sold their properties to the jews in the old tradition of arab hospitality being a multi ethnic multi religious society accepting the jews as neighbours was no different just another religion plus they paid fair market value etc they did not know they were victims of an international conspiracy i m not a conspiracy theorist myself but this one is hard to dismiss right now i m just going to address this point when the jewish national fund bought most of its land it didn t buy it from the palestinians themselves because for the most part they were tenant farmers fallahin living on land owned by wealthy arabs in syria and lebanon the jnf offered a premium deal so the owners took advantage of it it s called commerce the owners however made no provisions for those who had worked for them basically shafting them by selling the land right out from under them they are to blame not the jews amir why would you categorize the sale of land as shafting was it because it was sold to jews was it fair to assume that the fallahin would be mistreated by the jews is this the norm of any commerce read shafting between arabs and jews your claim that the lebanese syrian landlords sold palestine if true even partially omits the fact that the mandate treaty put lebanon and syria under french rule while palestine under british obiviously any such landlord would have found himself a foreigner in palestine and would be motivated to sell regardless of the price it is interesting though that you acknowledge that the palestinians were shafted do many israelis or jews share your opinion do you absolve the purchaser from any ethical commitments just because it wasn t written down all told i did not see an answer in your response the question was whether the intent behind the purchase was aimed at controlling the public assets land infra structure etc imho the palestinians have grounds to contest the legality of the purchase say in world court sam my opinions are my own and no one else s
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nazi eugenic theories circulated by cpr unconventianal peace now we have strong evidence of where the cpr really stands unbelievable and disgusting it only proves that we must never forget in article igc apc org cpr igc apc org center for policy research writes from center for policy research cpr subject unconventional peace proposal a unconventional proposal for peace in the middle east not so unconventional eugenic solutions to the jewish problem have been suggested by northern europeans in the past eugenics a science that deals with the improvement as by control of human mating of hereditory qualities of race or breed webster s ninth collegiate dictionary the emergence of a considerable number of mixed marriages in israel palestine all of whom would have relatives on both sides of the divide would make the conflict lose its ethnical and unsoluble core and strengthen the emergence of a truly civil society the existence of a strong mixed stock of people would also help the integration of israeli society into the middle east in a graceful manner this is nothing more than feisal husseini s statement that the zionist entity must be disolved by forcing it to engage the surrounding normal arab society a strong mixed stock integration of israeli society into the middle east in a graceful manner these are the phrases of nazi racial engineering pure and simple as if israeli society has no right to exist per se fundamentalist jews would certainly object to the use of financial incentives to encourage mixed marriages from their point of view the continued existence of a specific jewish people overrides any other consideration be it human love peace of human rights the president of the world jewish congress edgar bronfman reflected this view a few years ago in an interview he gave to der spiegel a german magazine he called the increasing assimilation of jews in the world a calamity comparable in its effects only with the holocaust this objection has no merit either because it does not fulfill the first two assumptions see above the continued existance of a specific jewish people overrides any other consideration be it human love peace of human rights disolve the jewish people and protect human values such as love and peace yes ve have heard this before her himmler notice how the source of the problem seems to be accruing to the jews in this analysis ya der spiegal ist a gut sourcen it may objected that such a fund would need great sums to bring about substantial demographic changes this objection has merits however it must be remembered that huge sums more than billion are expended each year by the united states government and by u s organizations to maintain an elusive peace in the middle east through armaments a mere fraction of these sums would suffice to launch the above proposal and create a more favorable climate towards the existence of mixed marriages in israel palestine thus encouraging the emergence of a non segregated society in that worn torn land nice attempt to mix in a slam against u s aid to israel i would be thankful for critical comments to the above proposal as well for any dissemination of this proposal for meaningful discussion and enrichment elias davidsson post box reykjavik iceland critical comment you can take the nazi flag and holocaust photos off of your bedroom wall elias you ll never succeed chris metcalfe now we ll find out where you fans really stand
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re unconventional peace proposal in article igc apc org cpr igc apc org center for policy research writes from center for policy research cpr a unconventional proposal for peace in the middle east by elias davidsson of all the stupid postings you ve brought here recently it is illuminating that you chose to put your own name on perhaps the stupidest of them the following proposal is based on the following assumptions fundamental human rights such as the right to life to education to establish a family and have children to human dignity the right to free movement to free expression etc are more important to human existence that the rights of states does this mean that you are calling for the dismantling of the arab states in the event of a conflict between basic human rights and rights of collectivities basic human rights should prevail apparently your answer is yes attempts to solve the israeli arab conflict by traditional political means have failed attempts to solve these problem by traditional military means and non traditional terrorist means has also failed but that won t stop them from trying again after all it is a holy war you know as long as the conflict is perceived as that between two distinct ethnical religious communities peoples which claim the land there is no just nor peaceful solution possible no just solution possible how very encouraging having stated my assumptions i will now state my proposal you mean that it gets even funnier a fund should be established which would disburse grants for each child born to a couple where one partner is israeli jew and the other palestinian arab for the first child the grant will amount to for the second the third child for each child for each subsequent child the grant will amount to for each child the fund would be financed by a variety of sources which have shown interest in promoting a peaceful solution to the israeli arab conflict no the fund should be financed by the center for policy research it is a major organization isn t it isn t it the emergence of a considerable number of mixed marriages in israel palestine all of whom would have relatives on both sides of the divide would make the conflict lose its ethnical and unsoluble core and strengthen the emergence of a truly civil society yeah just like marriages among arabs has strengthened their societies the existence of a strong mixed stock of people would also help the integration of israeli society into the middle east in a graceful manner the world could do with a bit less middle eastern grace objections to this proposal will certainly be voiced i will attempt to identify some of these boy you re a one man band listen if you d like to followup on your own postings and debate with yourself just tell us and we ll leave you alone jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president
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re armenia says it could shoot down turkish planes in article c qu h if news iastate edu oyalcin iastate edu onur yalcin writes in article apr kpc com henrik quayle kpc com writes in article apr ee rochester edu terziogl ee rochester edu esin terzioglu writes cancellum henrik let me clearify mr turkish henrik armenia is not getting itchy she is simply letting the world know henrik that she will no longer sit there quiet and let turks get away with henrik their famous tricks armenians do remember of the turkish invasion henrik of the greek island of cypress while the world simply watched onur yalcin it is more appropriate to address netters with their names as onur yalcin they appear in their signatures i failed to do so since you did onur yalcin not bother to sign your posting not only because it is the onur yalcin polite thing to do but also to avoid addressing ladies with onur yalcin mr as you have done fine please accept my opology onur yalcin secondly the island of which the name is more correctly spelled onur yalcin as cyprus has never been greek but rather it has been home to onur yalcin a bi communal society formed of greeks and turks it seems that onur yalcin you know as little about the history and the demography of the onur yalcin island as you know about the essence of turkey s onur yalcin military intervention to it under international agreements bi communal society then why did not greece invade cyprus onur yalcin be that as it may an analogy between an act of occupation in onur yalcin history and what is going on today on azerbaijani land can only onur yalcin be drawn with the expansionist policy that armenia is now pursuing buch of crap and you know it nagarno karabagh has always been part of armenia and it was stalin who gave it to the azeris go back and review the history the armenians in nagarno karabagh are simply defending their rights to keep their homeland and it is the azeris that are invading their teritory onur yalcin but i could agree that it is not for us to issue diagnoses to onur yalcin the political conduct of countries and promulgate them in such onur yalcin terminology as itchy bitchy i was not the one that stated it however i hope that the armenians will force a turkish airplane to land for purposes of searching for arms similar to the one that happened last summer turkey searched an american plane carrying humanitarian aid bound to armenia
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re was go hezbollah in article apr ncsu edu hernlem chess ncsu edu brad hernlem writes i think that you should try to find more sources of news about what goes on in lebanon and try to see through the propaganda thank you brad ali for warning us about the dangers of propaganda it s funny though coming from you there are no a priori black and white hats but one sure wonders how the idf can bombard villages in retaliation to pin point attacks on its soldiers in lebanon and then call the lebanese terrorists who is it that executes these pin point attacks on israelis the guys in the white hats or the ones in the black hats neither you mean that they are just civilians farmers teachers school children well maybe they are terrorists after all and maybe that propaganda was correct too hmm jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president
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re flame and a jewish home in palestine in article c hjbc hc bony bony com jake bony bony com jake livni writes in article apr newshub ariel yorku ca nabil ariel yorku ca nabil gangi writes according to exodus there were jews that marched out of egypt this is only the number of adult males the total number of jewish slaves leaving egypt was much larger the number which could have arrived to the holy lands must have been substantially less ude to the harsh desert and the killings between the jewish tribes on the way nabil typical arabic thinking if we are guilty of something so is everyone else unfortunately for you nabil jewish tribes are not nearly as susceptible to the fratricidal murdering that is still so common among arabs in the middle east there were no killings between the jewish tribes on the way i don t like this comment about typical thinking you could state your interpretation of exodus without it as i read exodus i can see a lot of killing there which is painted by the author of the bible in ideological religious colors the history in the desert can be seen as an ethos of any nomadic people occupying a land that s why i think it is a great book with which descendants arabs turks and mongols can unify as well jake jake livni jake bony bony com ten years from now george bush will american occupied new york have replaced jimmy carter as the my opinions only employer has no opinions standard of a failed president oded maler lgi imag bat d b p x grenoble france phone fax e mail maler imag fr
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re israeli expansion lust in article apr news columbia edu ayr cunixa cc columbia edu amir y rosenblatt writes in article spam maths adelaide edu au jaskew spam maths adelaide edu au joseph askew writes in article apr das harvard edu adam endor uucp adam shostack writes it depends entirely on how you define war the actual fighting largely predates the arab invasions after all deir yassin happened in midapril well before the arab invasion how do you define war do seiges and constant attacks on villiages count as acts of war or is that only when the jews do them i would hope that if you intend to have a reasonable discussion you might wait until i express an opinion before deciding i should be flamed for it as for war i am not sure how i would define it if you just look at attacks on villages then there is no way of deciding when it started would you count the riots in the s and s violence but not war i personally think that war as opposed to civil disturbance or whatever requires organisation planning and some measure of regualr or semi regular forces perhaps the arab liberation army counts i could easily be convinced it was so from what i know they did not have a great deal of planning let alone organisation the haganah and palmach certainly did that is not a cause for criticism it merely reflects the great organisation generally in the zionist camp of course this isn t war since it s only the arabs attacking now you are being silly aren t you in any case the war did not start with the invasion of the arab armies you see we both agree on something and the previous posters were wrong no just like last week when the fatah launched katyusha rockets against northern israel where does uprising end and war begin again i am not sure i doubt you want my opinion anyway but i think war requires organisation as i said before it needs a group to command and plan if fatah lauches rockets from southern lebanon and are you sure you have the right group not the moslems again then that sounds like war to me stone throwing does not joseph askew joseph askew gauche and proud in the autumn stillness see the pleiades jaskew spam maths adelaide edu remote in thorny deserts fell the grief disclaimer sue see if i care north of our tents the sky must end somwhere actually i rather like brenda beyond the pale the river murmurs on
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re was go hezbollah in article y m d witsend uucp d c sessions dcs witsend tnet com writes please clarify your standards for rules of engagement as i understand it israelis are at all times and under all circumstances fair targets their opponents are legitimate targets only when mirandized or some such i m sure that this makes perfect sense if you grant a priori that israelis are the black hats and that therefore killing them is automatically a good thing go hezbollah the corollary is that the hezbollah are the white hats and that whatever they do is a good thing and the israelis only prove themselves to be bad guys by attacking them this sounds suspiciously like a hockey fan i know who cheers when one of the players on his team uses his stick to permanently rearrange an opponent s face and curses the ref for penalizing his side of course when it s different when the roles are reversed d c sessions well you should have noted that i was cheering an attack on an israeli patrol inside lebanese territory while i was condemning the retaliatory shelling of lebanese villages by israeli and israeli backed forces my team you see was playing fair while the opposing team was rearranging the faces of the spectators in my team s viewing stands so to speak i think that you should try to find more sources of news about what goes on in lebanon and try to see through the propaganda there are no a priori black and white hats but one sure wonders how the idf can bombard villages in retaliation to pin point attacks on its soldiers in lebanon and then call the lebanese terrorists brad hernlem hernlem chess ncsu edu
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re armenia says it could shoot down turkish planes henrik henrik quayle kpc com writes the armenians in nagarno karabagh are simply defending their rights to keep their homeland and it is the azeris that are invading their territorium homeland first nagarno karabagh was armenians homeland today fizuli lacin and several villages in azerbadjan are their homeland can t you see the the great armenia dream in this with facist methods like killing raping and bombing villages the last move was the blast of a truck with kurdish refugees trying to escape the from lacin a city that was given to the kurds by the armenians however i hope that the armenians will force a turkish airplane to land for purposes of searching for arms similar to the one that happened last summer turkey searched an american plane carrying humanitarian aid bound to armenia don t speak about things you don t know american cargo planes were heading to armenia when the turkish authorities announced that they were going to search these cargo planes of these planes returned to it s base in germany of these planes were searched in turkey the content of of the other planes not hard to guess is it it was sure not humanitarian aid search turkish planes you don t know what you are talking about turkey s government has announced that it s giving weapons to azerbadjan since armenia started to attack azerbadjan it self not the karabag province so why search a plane for weapons since it s content is announced to be weapons hilmi eren dept of computer and systems sciences stockholm university sweden hilmi er dsv su se
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re israel s expansion ii in article apr news columbia edu pgf cunixb cc columbia edu peter garfiel freeman writes in article apr vm mcgill ca b ha musicb mcgill ca b ha writes so nice of you all to answer some questions and it so nice that most of you feel that it would be in your hearts to give the palestinians some land most of you focus on the fact that israel annexed all this land and it is a kind gesture to give some of it back well i hope that after after a state run by palestinians is established the first decision should be to make jerusalem part of this state by annexing it of course steve steve if the israelis are stupid enough to allow a second palestinian state the first one is jordon then you will probably get your wish and the israelis would get what s coming to them however if the palestinians were to somehow demonstrate that they could govern themselves and live in peace with their jewish neighbors then they would have to give up the idea of jerusalem as a part of their state and you would be disappointed israel has not annexed any of the west bank just jeruselum which will remain part of israel forever yashir koach to this ben
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re ten questions about israel in article igc apc org cpr igc apc org center for policy research writes from center for policy research cpr subject ten questions about israel ten questions to israelis i would be thankful if any of you who live in israel could help to provide accurate answers to the following specific questions these are indeed provocative questions but they are asked time and again by people around me i lived there until july so i think that on the whole my input is relevant is it true that the israeli authorities don t recognize israeli nationality and that id cards which israeli citizens must carry at all times identify people as jews or arabs not as israelis those are two separate questions obviously israeli authorities do recognize israeli nationality for some purposes e g passports consular services etc id cards have a field of nationality which is a subdivision of the above ostensibly this field is provided for sevices provided by the religious departments of the gov t though this is not the general case is it true that the state of israel has no fixed borders and that israeli governments from until today have refused to state where the ultimate borders of the state of israel should be from its onset israel s borders have been shaped and reshaped by both war and peace as such the israeli gov t has always felt that defining its borders is a step that is meaningful only after peace treaties have been conluded with its neighbors there is no plan for ultimate borders is this a game like ultimate frisbee extending into other countries is it true that israeli stocks nuclear weapons if so could you provide any evidence aside from what vaanunu provided no is it true that in israeli prisons there are a number of individuals which were tried in secret and for which their identities the date of their trial and their imprisonment are state secrets if that is true then by virtue of the question s subject it is unanswerable anyone who claims its validity is claiming an oxymoron that having been said i deny the above you go on to ask quite a number of questions that show an obvious bias questions of the sort is it true that you entered your mother s vagina which are based upon some kernel of truth though phrased in a way as to render them repugnant and cast aspersions upon israel incidentally the answer to the above is usually yes unless you were born via a c section shai guday stealth bombers os software engineer thinking machines corp the winged ninjas of the skies cambridge ma
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re was go hezbollah in article apr unocal com stssdxb st unocal com dorin baru writes brad hernlem writes well you should have noted that i was cheering an attack on an israeli patrol inside lebanese territory while i was condemning the retaliatory shelling of lebanese villages by israeli and israeli backed forces my team you see was playing fair while the opposing team was rearranging the faces of the spectators in my team s viewing stands so to speak i think that you should try to find more sources of news about what goes on in lebanon and try to see through the propaganda there are no a priori black and white hats but one sure wonders how the idf can bombard villages in retaliation to pin point attacks on its soldiers in lebanon and then call the lebanese terrorists if the attack was justified or not is at least debatable but this is not the issue the issue is that you were cheering death dorin dorin of all the criticism of my post expressed on t p m this one i accept i regret that aspect of my post it is my hope that the occupation will end and the accompanying loss of life but i believe that stiff resistance can help to achieve that end despite what some have said on t p m i think that there is a point when losses are unacceptable the strategy drove u s troops out of lebanon at least brad hernlem hernlem chess ncsu edu
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re armenia says it could shoot down turkish planes in article apr kth se hilmi er dsv su se hilmi eren writes henrik the armenians in nagarno karabagh are simply defending their henrik rights to keep their homeland and it is the azeris that are henrik invading their homeland he homeland first nagarno karabagh was armenians homeland today he fizuli lacin and several villages in azerbadjan he are their homeland can t you see the he the great armenia dream in this with facist methods like he killing raping and bombing villages the last move was the he blast of a truck with kurdish refugees trying to he escape the from lacin a city that was given to the kurds he by the armenians nagorno karabakh is in azerbaijan not armenia armenians have lived in nagorno karabakh ever since there were armenians armenians used to live in the areas between armenia and nagorno karabakh and this area is being used to invade nagorno karabakh armenians are defending themselves if azeris are dying because of a policy of attacking armenians then something is wrong with this policy if i recall correctly it was stalin who caused all this problem with land in the first place not the armenians henrik however i hope that the armenians will force a turkish airplane henrik to land for purposes of searching for arms similar to the one henrik that happened last summer turkey searched an american plane henrik carrying humanitarian aid bound to armenia he don t speak about things you don t know u s cargo planes he were heading to armenia when the turkish authorities he announced that they were going to search these cargo he planes of these planes returned to it s base in germany he of these planes were searched in turkey the content of he of the other planes not hard to guess is it it was sure not he humanitarian aid what story are you talking about planes from the u s have been sending aid into armenian for two years i would not like to guess about what were in the planes in your story i would like to find out he search turkish planes you don t know what you are talking about he turkey s government has announced that it s giving weapons he to azerbadjan since armenia started to attack azerbadjan he it self not the karabag province so why search a plane for weapons he since it s content is announced to be weapons it s too bad you would want turkey to start a war with armenia
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re armenia says it could shoot down turkish planes in article apr iastate edu oyalcin iastate edu onur yalcin writes in article apr kpc com henrik quayle kpc com writes in article c qu h if news iastate edu oyalcin iastate edu onur yalcin oy henrik oy your ignorance manifests itself in an awkward form of intransigence i m not oy going to spend time to review with you the recent history of cyprus good go back to your references and read it over and over oy if you are really interested i can provide you with a number of references oy on the issue just send me email for that you think i am that stupid to ask you for references not i have many greek friends that i could ask for the info if i needed i have already read many articles and do not need your help boy how generous oy relax you re swinging fists into open air i was agreeing with you oy assuming that would be one of your points that you did not state you may oy not be very much used to it to be agreed with that is but take it more oy easily believe me i am so relaxed henrik however i hope that the armenians will force a turkish airplane henrik to land for purposes of searching for arms similar to the one oy no henrik believe me you don t hope that if armenia is goint to do that then so be it henrik that happened last summer turkey searched an american plane henrik carrying humanitarian aid bound to armenia oy was that after or before one french plane changed its route to avoid oy inspection all i am saying is that the plane that was searched was an american and why turkey did not trust the u s that it was mainly humanitarian aid cargo
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re news briefs from kh farzin apollo ntt jp farzin mokhtarian writes from kayhan havai o dr malekzadeh the minister of health mentioned that the population growth rate in iran at the end of went below i know nothing about statistics but what significance does the relatively small population growth rate have where the sampling period is so small at the end of is it adequete to suggest a trend or is it just noise farzin mokhtarian mack
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remember those names come election time in article christopheru ak pe clarinet com clarinews clarinet com sid balman jr writes washington upi secretary of state warren christopher said tuesday there are better ideas to stop the human slaughter in the balkans than ordering american fighters to bomb the serbs but a frustrated senator told him to do just that we ve not done a damn thing sen joseph biden d del told christopher at a hearing of the senate foreign relations committee preventive diplomacy is not in your capability right now in bosnia herzegovina biden chastised the administration and its republican predecessor for what he characterized as a limp response to the serbian policy of ethnic cleansing of muslims including rape and shelling of civilians the time has come for us and the world to stop bemoaning the fact that all the options are bad ones biden said they are all bad ones and we ought to pick a couple biden also endorsed lifting an international arms embargo against the former yugoslavia so the muslim dominated bosnian government might have a chance to at least defend itself against the serbs christopher said this could give an opening role in the conflict to the radical islamic government of iran o i c biden endorsed bombing serbian heavy weapons around the besieged eastern town of srebrenica there s not a military person who will not tell you that they could today if you gave them the order take out the heavy weaponry around srebrenica biden said if you did nothing else nothing else but that you would have saved hundreds of women and children who are being absolutely massacred right now military action is the only thing that s going to change the equation biden said despite the frustrations and pressure christopher had no enthusiasm for american combat aircraft to strike serb positions in bosnia herzegovina clearly we are at a turning point in the bosnia situation christopher said air strikes are among those steps that are so complex because they tend to interfere with the humanitarian endeavours i think there may be better options humanitarian as in feeding them and let them get raped and killed political conflict clinton vowed during the presidential campaign to then lift the arms embargo and to strike at serbian heavy weapons with u s combat aircraft christopher said airstrikes would likely increase the level of now fighting and cause our allies to draw back or even pull out the humanitarian effort great britain and france have balked at foreign military intervention in bosnia herzegovina for fear that their peacekeeping troops on the ground may suffer serbian retribution why don t they get the hell out of there they ared doing nothing to protect the victims anyway maybe becasue they have a different agenda sen nancy kassebaum r kan seemed to agree with christopher s assessment and stressed the need not to build up bosnian expectations for heavy u s military intervention it s very important that expectations aren t raised high on the part of the beleagured bosnians she said air strikes might have made a difference eight months ago she said but the strategic significance of that step now is questionable like christopher kassebaum said it might jeopardize the humanitarian relief effort now that they made sure the bosnian who were the only real subject of the embargo last year as everybody knows that the serbs had an unlimited supply of arms wre massacred without having a chance to defend themselves now this evil coldhearted snake is saying it is too late to save them so let them die
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re news you will miss apr arf genesis mcs com jack schmidling writes in article qun ainnik aludra usc edu sgoldste aludra usc edu fogbound child writes arf genesis mcs com jack schmidling writes yigal et al sue adl why do you title this news you will miss there have been at least three front page stories on it in the l a times i wouldn t exactly call that a media cover up this may come as a surprise to you but there are a few americans who do not read the la times is this the same monolithic centrally controlled media that you re always talking about do you mean to tell me that the la times is the only major paper to buck the media spiking division s activities the defamation league has done a first class job of damage control in what little is left of the world outside of la assumption when one major newspaper prints three or more articles on the front page regarding subject matter that is not strictly local this is likely to be considered an open story and not a coverup let s hear a roll call here anyone outside of the la area seen articles on this js samuel mossad special agent id media spiking mind control division los angeles offices therefore evidently incompetent pratice safe signature prevent dangerous signature virii guildenstern our names shouted in a certain dawn a message a summons there must have been a moment at the beginning where we could have said no but somehow we missed it
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re syria s expansion in article c qhya gn dscomsa desy de hallam zeus desy de writes in article apr das harvard edu adam endor uucp adam shostack writes in article apr vm mcgill ca b ha b ha musicb mcgill ca writes is israel s occupation of southern lebanon temporary israel has repeatedly stated that it will leave lebanon when the lebanese government can provide guarantees that israel will not be attacked from lebanese soil and when the syrians leave not acceptable syria and lebanon have a right to determine if they wish to return to the situation prior to the french invasion where they were both part of the same mandate territory read colony and lebanon has a right to make this decision without syrian troops controlling the country until syria leaves and free elections take place its is rediculous to claim that the lebanese would even be involved in determining what happens to their country israel has no right to determine what happens in lebanon invading another country because you consider them a threat is precisely the way that almost all wars of aggression have started i expect you will agree that the same holds true for syria having no right to be in lebanon israel has already annexed areas taken over in the war these areas are not occupied but disputed since there is no legitamate governing body citizenship was given to those residents in annexed areas who wanted citizenship the un defines them as occupied they are recognised as such by every nation on earth excluding one small caribean island the un also thought zionism is racism that fails to make it true the first reason was security a large jewish presense makes it difficult for terrorists to infiltrate a jewish settlements also act as fortresses in times of war theyu also are a liability we are talking about civilian encampments that would last no more than hours against tanks they lasted weeks against tanks in and stopped those tanks from advancing they also lasted days in there is little evidence for the claim that they are military liabilities they evidence is there to show that when infiltrations take place over the jordan river the existance of large patrolled kibutzim forces terrorists into a very small area where they are usually picked up in the morning a second reason was political creating settlements brought the arabs to the negotiation table had the creation of new towns and cities gone on another several years there would be no place left in israel where there was an arab majority there would have been no land left that could be called arab don t fool yourself it was the gulf war that brought the israelis to the negotiating table once their us backers had a secure base in the gulf they insrtructed shamir to negotiate or else nonsense israel has been trying to get its neighbors to the negotiating table for years it was the gulf war that brought the arabs to the table not the israelis the point is there are many reasons people moved over the green line and many reasons the government wanted them to whatever status is negotiated for disputed territories it will not be an all or nothing deal new boundaries will be drawn up by negotiation not be the results of a war unless the new boundaries drawn up are those of there will be no peace araffat has precious little authority to agree to anything else nonsense according to arafat israel must be destroyed he has never come clean and denied that this is his plan he always waffles on what he means when the arabs set off their volcano there will only be arabs in this part of the world our people will continue to fuel the torch of the revolution with rivers of blood until the whole of the occupied homeland is liberated yasser arafat ap adam shostack adam das harvard edu if we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors we sure wouldn t waste them on members of congress john perry barlow
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re unconventional peace proposal in article igc apc org center for policy research cpr igc apc org writes the idea of providing financial incentives to selected forms of partnership and marriage is not conventional however it is based on the concept of affirmative action which is recognized as a legitimate form of public policy to reverse the perverse effects of segregation and discrimination other people have already shown this to be a rediculous proposal however i wanted to point out that there are many people who do not think that affirmative action is a either intelligent or productive it is demeaning to those who it supposedly helps and it is discriminatory any proposal based on it is likely bunk as well adam adam shostack adam das harvard edu if we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors we sure wouldn t waste them on members of congress john perry barlow
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who should be spied on in article c sdck n news cso uiuc edu eshneken ux cso uiuc edu edward a shnekendorf writes anwar cs cmu edu anwar mohammed writes in article bimacs bitnet ehrlich bimacs bitnet gideon ehrlich writes the readers of this forum seemed to be more interested in the contents of those files so it will be nice if yigal will tell us why do american authorities consider yigal arens to be dangerous adl authorities seem to view a lot of people as dangerous including the millions of americans of arab ancestry perhaps you can answer the question as to why the adl maintained files and spied on adc members in california and elsewhere friendly rivalry perhaps come on most if not all arabs are sympathetic to the palestinian war against israel that is why the adl monitors arab organizations that is the same reason the us monitored communist organizations and soviet nationals only a few years ago the adc is an organization of arab americans let me see you re saying that most if not all arab americans should be spied on you re also saying that most if not all arab americans should be views as a national security threat to israel and the us as you gratuitously imply in your reference to the wtc bombing in which no arab americans were involved by inference can we assume that you think that anyone of arab lineage anywhere in the world poses a threat to israel and therefore should be spied on perhaps then on the basis of pollard spy case not to mention the rosenbergs etc you think that all jewish americans should be spied on by the adc oh never mind this whole spying case has obviously so convoluted your sense of right or wrong in these matters that i have no wish confuse you further perhaps yigal is a greenpeace member or the naacp or a reporter or a member of any of the dozens of other political organizations ethnic minorities occupations that the adl spied on all of these groups have in the past associated with or been a part of anti israel activity or propoganda the adl is simply monitoring them so that if anything comes up they won t be caught by surprise so the la times reporter who had information about him sold to the south african government was involved in anti israel activity or propaganda are we to infer that the simple act of reporting an event in a newspaper constitutes anti israel activity or propaganda or was it south africa the la times reporter was based in south africa after all gideon ehrlich anwar ed anwar again
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re media horrified at perot investigating bush visser convex com lance visser writes i can t find my source but if you state that you will retract your claim i ll go dig one up at the library fair enough are you serious i m not talking about retracting anything until you have produced something if you were not just talking off the top of your head i would assume that you have some memory of what your source is put up now without conditions yes very serious i claim that i can substantiate my statement that rudman says he doesn t believe perot was investigating him you claim perot was investigating him if you will state that you were in error on this point provided i produce the source i ll go dig it up now give me one reason why i should go to the trouble if you won t agree to this it is simple enough you know but i don t have time to waste if you ll just blow it off with more of the tripe you usually post michael pye email mpye csupomona edu
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re damn ferigner s be taken over in c v w dup apollo hp com nelson p apollo hp com peter nelson writes in article bob cos bob cos com bob blackshaw writes in c ruo r apollo hp com nelson p apollo hp com peter nelson writes norway where you appear to be posting from is just such a place although it has always escaped my understanding just what the appeal to allegedly rational people of such a scheme might be what gives king olav v or whoever it is now my atlas is from the right to any special legal status or title based on a mere accident of birth to begin with it s quite inexpensive compared to here what with our having six former presidents still alive drawing pensions expense accounts and secret service protection maybe so but they were after all president in the corporate world it s sop for retiring senior executives to be given nice pensions etc the point is that they performed a service and this is part of the compensation package the only service royals have to perform for their free ride is being born we might be better off had some of our former presidents done nothing peter ps which is not to say that some of our presidents have not provided a service for the country too dissimilar from what occurs when a bull services a cow for those of you familiar with cattle breeding
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re bill conklin s letter to a j in article apr colorado edu ajteel dendrite cs colorado edu a j teel writes again the main point no human being not yet born can be bound to any contract wrong it s possible to inherit a debt further no third party can be bound to any contract that they are not a party to see above the constitution for the united states is just such a contract no third party can be bound to it further no human who is not specifically mentioned in article and has not taken an oath or made an affirmation to uphold said const can be bound to uphold or obey it the constitution is not a contract it is a statute please mr teel or anyone show me one case where the u s constitution or any state constitution is considered a contract the const is designed to limit the powers of government not to bind the people it is also designed to delineate the powers of the u s government this argument will be presented in great detail in the next post i can t wait daniel reitman how not to write a deed one case involved the construction of a conveyance to grantees jointly as tenants in common with equal rights and interest in said land and to the survivor thereof in fee simple to have and to hold the same unto the said parties hereto equally jointly as tenants in common with equal rights and interest for the period or term of their lives and to the survivor thereof at the death of the other the court held that the survivorship provision indicated an intent to create a joint tenancy germain v delaine ala so d
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re traffic case in article apr colorado edu ajteel dendrite cs colorado edu a j teel writes the mcdonald case was dismissed in the interests of justice on whose authority do you have this and on what grounds was it dismissed daniel reitman how not to write a deed one case involved the construction of a conveyance to grantees jointly as tenants in common with equal rights and interest in said land and to the survivor thereof in fee simple to have and to hold the same unto the said parties hereto equally jointly as tenants in common with equal rights and interest for the period or term of their lives and to the survivor thereof at the death of the other the court held that the survivorship provision indicated an intent to create a joint tenancy germain v delaine ala so d
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re winning tax case in article d t infoserv com jamesdon infoserv com james a donald writes the tax protesters are legally correct but they are put in jail anyway hello what the sloan decision means is that the tax protestors were wrong the weakness of the governments legal position is shown by the fact that when someone protesting tax or gun laws on legal grounds gets a federal jury trial very rare the feds blatantly stack the jury with the same old faces turning up time after time demonstrate please the rules of procedure make this very unlikely however teel should have mentioned that though his advice is legally sound if you follow it you will probably wind up in jail for discussion purposes only which makes it legally unsound if i were representing mr teel i d try a procedural approach if i could find one or recommend he plea bargain he s setting himself up to be in hot water daniel reitman how not to write a deed one case involved the construction of a conveyance to grantees jointly as tenants in common with equal rights and interest in said land and to the survivor thereof in fee simple to have and to hold the same unto the said parties hereto equally jointly as tenants in common with equal rights and interest for the period or term of their lives and to the survivor thereof at the death of the other the court held that the survivorship provision indicated an intent to create a joint tenancy germain v delaine ala so d
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a demo of nonsense talk and what about all the other lies in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes homosexuals have been lying about the number for so long that the politicians are running scared of them of course homosexuals lying should be no surprise how can you lie about something that no one knows for sure i am the first to state that the figure may be too high but it may just be too low depending on what you are talking about keep in mind that there are practicing heterosexuals that are actually gay these people chose to take a road that avoids being harassed and they wanted to fit in with everyone other normal person but let s get off of this irrational behavior of calling everyone a liar you cannot even start to support such claims also the corrupt criminal and lying nature of kinsey s work which provides much of the justification for homosexual rights in the modern era should make people step back for a moment and question the rest of the crap that they have been force fed by the news media this sure sounds definitive how do you label kinsey s work like this from that factually based and scientific journal wsj relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all this is an interesting statement do you realize how many things you do your life that are not based on mutual consent and that it may be required on occasion that all parties may not be mutually consenting this
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re the evidence in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes in article bu edu kane buast bu edu hot young star writes in article cjkc mcwp ox netcom com cjk netcom com writes if homosexuals did keep themselves in the privacy of their own home this wouldn t be a problem however there are various cliques sp that don t they want to present the argument that it is just as moral and right as heterosexuality you know i m offended by newspapers publicly announcing weddings heterosexuals should keep their nutpials out of the public eyes they should be banned from wearing wedding rings from having legal recognition of marriage anything that s public and sexual don t mix the difference of course is that we are right and you are wrong if you are a minority that wants freedom it helps to not be obnoxious about it it does not surprise me that as groups like translation you minorities stay in predesignated areas we the majority are right anything you do is wrong since might makes right and the majority always rules queer nation become increasingly belligerent in their public demonstrations that violence against homosexuals rises anything that reminds the crazies who like to beat up homosexuals of their presence is going to aggravate things oh crime prevention at its best well let s extrapolate this maybe if you didn t display all of your private property then those nasty theifs wouldn t go after it and don t carry any money that way those muggers won t bother you and you still don t realize that either way it is says that homosexuals are very dangerous to children so tell me what s immoral about homosexuality the promiscuity and fetishism that characterizes it the sexual predatory component that glorifies the pursuit of candy ass and hairless cocks in the words of le jojo the typical homosexual oh i did not know that le jojo is a typical homosexual stop making statements about something you know nothing about that is gay people you make your sweeping generalizations with no grounding in reality what i hope is not true that you are a typical heterosexual anyone want to comment on this and if you are typical then i can start extrapolating a lot of interesting conjectures about heterosexuals
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re news you may have missed in article pprtvinnctl aludra usc edu sgoldste aludra usc edu fogbound child writes arf genesis mcs com jack schmidling writes in article apr rapnet sanders lockheed com babb k scott babb writes jack schmidling arf genesis mcs com wrote jac y virginia edu jonathan a cook jac y writes why do you restrict your condemnation of racial strife to israel do the situations in bosnia tibet china etc not merit your comment as far as i am aware we have not sent close to billion dollars to let s not exaggerate i notice you did not offer an alternative number try this one on for size by the year american taxpayers will have given israel one dollar for every star in the milky way galaxy i will let you look up the number
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re winning tax case dreitman oregon uoregon edu daniel r reitman attorney to be writes which makes it legally unsound if i were representing mr teel i d try a procedural approach if i could find one or recommend he plea bargain he s setting himself up to be in hot water indeed reading the cases of people who ve tried the various things mr teel suggests show that defendants fall into two classes those who win on procedural grounds or some grounds not related to their claim and those who lose consider newman v schiff f d th cir which i ve seen cited by tax protestors other than mr teel as a win for mr schiff mr schiff offered on tv to anyone who would call in the show and cite any section of the internal revenue code that says that an individual has to file a return mr newman took him up on it mr newman had seen the show in a rebroadcast the next morning mr schiff claimed that the offer only extended to people who actually say the original broadcast and so there was no offer for mr newman to accept and so no unilateral contract was formed and so mr schiff did not have to pay mr schiff was correct and so won so yes mr schiff won against a claim on the reward however his win had nothing to do with the tax code tim smith
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re california insurance commissioner endorses federal legislation to protect consumers from scam insurance companies rick sjsumcs sjsu edu richard warner writes very simple an insurance commissioner is a bureaucrat a regulator it is his her duties to make rules to enforce laws and to make life difficult for us actuaries michael d adams starowl a i rahul net champaign il southeast al thrush believes in the two party system the masters and the slaves napoleon solo from the man from u n c l e
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re sick and tired was re bill conklin et al s letter in article apr mks com richw mks com rich wales writes why can t you just cite us a case in which joe schmoe a regular employee earning regular wages from a regular company refuses to pay his income tax gets hauled into court is convicted of wilful tax eva sion and then has his conviction overturned by the us supreme court with a landmark majority ruling that income tax is indeed totally voluntary what you say no such case exists hmmm i wonder why not why haven t you unless i ve got my notes mixed up f d comes close to this regular guy blue collar worker at a regular company hauled into court convicted appeals to th circuit makes all the right arguments his brief is cited by mr teel as an example of a winning brief shot down zip by the th circuit appeals to the supreme court and certiorari denied defendant goes to jail oh well tim smith
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re top ten reasons not to aid russians in article c fnh cvo news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes with a tip of the hat to david letterman for making the top ten format so popular top ten reasons that conservatives don t want to aid russia looking around who where don t look at me i want to send aid to russia many other conservatives do as well julie disclaimer all opinions here belong to my cat and no one else
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re who be conservative on this in apr rotag mi org kevin rotag mi org kevin darcy writes congress is not allowed to abrogate the constitutional rights and privileges already enjoyed by persons however unless the abrogation has a rational reason or a compelling interest to it depending on which standard is applied this is relevant because granting a right to one class of persons by definition always impinges on the rights of another class or classes or persons to some degree in the case of abortion establishing rights for the unborn impinges greatly on the rights of pregnant women there has yet to be presented a sufficient justification for such fetal rights not to your satisfaction but the arguments have convinced me and others mob rule isn t any prettier merely because the mob calls itself a government it ain t charity if you are using someone else s money wilson s theory of relativity if you go back far enough we re all related mark wilson atlantaga ncr com
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re rodney king trial civil rights violations double jeopardy in apr husc harvard edu spanagel husc harvard edu david spanagel writes recently it s occured to me that i ve never heard of any person ever being tried in federal court for violating someone s civil rights of course there have been cases before the supreme court in which it was decided that someone s civil rights had been violated e g miranda escobedo etc but institutions were de facto the defendants not individuals am i mistaken have there been similar cases against individuals in the past i know it was used several times in the south to prosecute the murders of blacks after all white juries had cleared the accussed furthermore what are the specific charges against the four lapd officers which civil rights or laws are they accused of violating i believe it is a general charge that is no specific right is mentioned what about double jeopardy has there been any concern that a verdict against koon et al might be overturned upon appeal because they re being tried again for the same actions i thought i heard something on the news about this the ss has previously ruled that since the seperate governments were in essence seperate sovereigns then double jeopardy does not apply if this is true then could defendents also be tried under city and county governments this mornings paper said that the aclu has decided to reinstate its opposition to this kind of thing they had earlier suspended their opposition while they examined the king case there might be hope for the aclu after all mob rule isn t any prettier merely because the mob calls itself a government it ain t charity if you are using someone else s money wilson s theory of relativity if you go back far enough we re all related mark wilson atlantaga ncr com
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re why is tax evasion not considered unpatriotic in apr hemlock cray com rja mahogany cray com ben s dad writes in article c tauw mrz ncratl atlantaga ncr com mwilson ncratl atlantaga ncr com mark wilson writes in article pasrg ife s gov lip s gov loren i petrich writes the title is self explanatory isaac asimov once pointed out that curious fact are you saying that it should be considered unpatriotic if you do not give everything you own to the state are you saying that it should be considered unpatriotic if you do not give your life in battle for the state the pc patrioticly correct certainly think so i thought that kind of system collapsed when the soviet union did no the pentagon is still standing and collecting names for the draft if that s not what you meant at what point does paying more taxes cease being patriotic your money or your life which is more important nice dodge i give it a now to answer your questions i do not believe that there should be a draft the armed services should be voluntary can you say the same about taxes i ve answered your question would you now answer mine mob rule isn t any prettier merely because the mob calls itself a government it ain t charity if you are using someone else s money wilson s theory of relativity if you go back far enough we re all related mark wilson atlantaga ncr com
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re winning tax case do you have a strange definition of winning that you titled this thread winning tax case sloan lost by a unanimous decision that tore his arguments to pieces he went to prison using these arguments see united states v sloan f d th cir aff g f supp the tax protesters are legally correct but they are put in jail anyway the weakness of the governments legal position is shown by the fact that when someone protesting tax or gun laws on legal grounds gets a federal jury trial very rare the feds blatantly stack the jury with the same old faces turning up time after time however teel should have mentioned that though his advice is legally sound if you follow it you will probably wind up in jail james a donald joseph stalin said ideas are more powerful than guns we would not let our enemies have jamesdon infoserv com guns why should we let them have ideas
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re supply side economic policy was re david stockman in article ufk gqu wbke cx v andrew cmu edu ashish andrew cmu edu ashish arora writes excerpts from netnews sci econ apr re supply side economic po by not a boomer desire wrig the deficits declined from reaching a low of of gnp before the tax and spending hike of reversed the trend brett is this true some more details would be appreciated cheers actually not brett himself has actually posted the data previously what declined from to as i remember it was percent increase in deficit growth i e the rate of growth of the deficit nd derivative of total deficit with respect of to time decreased brett apparently has numbed himself into thinking that the deficit declined if you keep spending more than you earn the deficit keeps growing if you keep borrowing at a lesser rate than you borrowed previously the deficit increases you only decrease deficits when your income exceeds spending and you use the difference to pay off debts figgie s book paints the real data pictorially in gory detail each president essentially ran up twice as much total debt in half the time reagan congress was simply awful bush congress was unbelievable as a really rigorous aside to this thread during pledge night the other night on the public channel there was an economist who gave an hour or so presentation his data was predictive and based largely on population data i don t know his name but his arguments were brilliant he confirmed with data what many of us know with common sense the boom of the s has nothing to do with government policy particularly supply side policy since taxes do not cause economic activities people cause economic activity more can be explained by watching population waves roll through the years and create cycles he has made models and predictions for years well into the middle of next century it will be neat to see how accurate he is paul collacchi
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re top ten reasons not to aid russians wasn t it tricky dick who issued stern warnings to bush clinton not to lose russia a la who lost china
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re price controls for medical care was re we re from the govt in article slagle apr sgi msd lmsc lockheed com slagle lmsc lockheed com writes in article apr isc br isc br com steveh thor isc br com steve hendricks writes thanks to kim for following up i was hoping that someone would bring up the issue of cost compensation the problem with the argument is that it fails to explain why kidney dialysis rd services have expanded massively in the last decade after all no one is forcing private providers to offer this service if they are losing money on the treatment which according to information i ve collected from several providers they are not why would they not simply limit their losses by cutting back on services engage in effective rationing of supply rather than expand the coverage to a larger market that must then be compensated by raising prices in other areas perhaps there is a competitive advantage in there after all would not reputable and dedicated physicians prefer to affiliate with an institution that offers dialysis services would they not therefore tend to admit patients in greater numbers to an institution that offered a full range of diagnostic and treatment options undoubtedly in fact it is the fact that hospitals frequently compete for physicians rather than for patients that in part complicates and undermines a simplistic free market analysis of the market for medical care hospitals tend to lose money on all sorts of high tech high price machinery they manage to make it up on other charges once again there is no evidence that this is true in regard to kidney dialysis although price controls have promoted an expansion of services to a much greater volume of patients rd is still a profitable service otherwise one would expect to see evidence of rationing rather than the vast expansion that has occurred remember the notion that you can lose a little on each treatment but make it up in volume is not good economics even in a free market then how do you explain why grocery stores routinely offer an array of products at prices below cost are not grocery stores embedded in a relatively free market can you spell loss leader i knew you could grocery stores do not attempt to make up the loss on an individual product by selling more of it in fact your argument above is that kidney dialysis is a loss leader for other medical treatments where lost revenue can be regained but the evidence does not support this contention rather it appears that price controls have disciplined the market by forcing an expansion of service and development of improved lower cost technology to provide comparable benefits providers continue to profit from rd they simply make less on each treatment than they would have if the price had risen at the rate that uncontrolled treatments have there is no question that had price controls forced the price of rd substantially below its actual cost that some or all of the doomsday predictions of free market advocates would have been seen restriction of service lagging technological development etc likewise it appears that in the va and armed forces medical care systems where providers are government agencies some of these negative impacts may occur rd patients in the va system in spokane for example must travel to seattle miles away for treatment the bottom line however is that this is an example of government intervention of a rather extreme sort that appears to have had beneficial results for both providers and consumers claims that government bureaucracy inevitably leads to undesirable outcomes in the marketplace should take such such cases into account jsh mark steve hendricks domain steveh thor isc br com one thing about data it sure does cut uucp uunet isc br thor steveh the bulls t r hofferbert ma bell
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sick and tired was re bill conklin et al s letter replying to a j teel well the two nifty letters giving concrete proof that the income tax is voluntary and giving specific procedures for stopping withholding et cetera have been out there for a while now humbug those letters don t provide concrete proof of anything at all in the absence of any case law that demonstrates the method will actu ally work for ordinary people in everyday situations specifically show us some case law in which the courts have ruled that income tax is illegal and or that ordinary working types do not have to pay income tax and that they can legally avoid paying income tax with out declaring themselves to be churches or some such silliness this issue is sufficiently important that i think we have a right to expect something squarely on point from the us supreme court in the case of federal tax or a state s supreme court for a state s income tax unless you can do that i for one am unwilling to call your material concrete proof there has been no refutation to date have the nay sayers finally given up as defeated sure would like to hear their reasons for disbelief at this point refutation refutation of what you haven t made a case yet you ve posted plenty of claims but you haven t given us any valid reason to believe that any court in the us will agree with you your claims seem on the surface to deviate so radically from the legal mainstream that i feel the burden of proof is still on you to show that your arguments have any merit whatsoever and the cases you ve cited involve such strange situations that i see no reason to assume that the rulings are applicable to anyone else or that they will ultimately stand on appeal to the supreme court why can t you just cite us a case in which joe schmoe a regular employee earning regular wages from a regular company refuses to pay his income tax gets hauled into court is convicted of wilful tax eva sion and then has his conviction overturned by the us supreme court with a landmark majority ruling that income tax is indeed totally voluntary what you say no such case exists hmmm i wonder why not why haven t you shall i conclude that the point has been received and the opposition has forfeited the field with all due respect you can conclude anything you want i just hope for your own sake that you don t conclude that anyone in a position of authority in the united states or any legitimate or illegitimate polit ical subdivision thereof is going to agree with your conclusions for that matter i confess i m thoroughly confused as to why you would be looking for court rulings in your favor anyway since i thought you told us earlier that every court in the us has been in cahoots with big banking interests since the admiralty jurisdiction coverup thing do you honestly expect us to believe that they d go to all the trouble to subvert the system and yet would still promptly slink back into their burrows in the face of anyone who knew enough to invoke the right combination of magic spells and mystic mumbo jumbo not only that but why do you even care what the us courts say anyway didn t you tell us a while back that you ve disavowed all attempts by us officials to classify you as a th amendment federal citizen when the fbi comes to haul you away for tax evasion why don t you just tell them they re out of their jurisdiction and should go back to washington d c where they belong or maybe we should all just go back to mediaeval common law which you suggested would be better than all these statutes codes and the like if you want to renounce society s legal framework fine we can just declare you an outlaw ok and anyone who sees you driving on the roads with no license plate on your car and no driver s license in your wallet can just take you like a game animal and stew you for their supper with plenty of veggies and a pinch of salt but without prejudice ucc sorry everyone it s getting late and i m sick and tired of all this garbage if i know what s good for me i ll just clam up and stop try ing to refute this nonsense and if anyone falls for it and winds up in jail for tax evasion or what not it ll be on their own head needless to say none of the above represents the opinions of my current employer who in any case is a canadian and doesn t really need to care too much about us tax law i on the other hand am a th amend ment federal citizen with a us passport to prove it and plan to keep on filing form s for the foreseeable future though i will probably not owe any us income tax due to the foreign earned income exclusion and or the foreign tax credit rich wales richw mks com mortice kern systems inc mks king st n waterloo ontario canada n j w
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re california insurance commissioner endorses federal legislation to protect consumers from scam insurance companies in article rlm apr helen surfcty com rlm helen surfcty com robert l mcmillin rants the left likes to dodge the issues of morality and behavior crying that anyone who raises them blames the victim nonetheless as a recent editorial in the los angeles times pointed out the free love advocates of the s have demolished the poor it s one thing to have children out of wedlock if you re say murphy brown or someone like her turning over a six figure salary and quite another if you re sixteen have no skills and no income and how did the free love advocates of the s manage to perform this demolition forced breeding programs or something by accepting and even celebrating single out of wedlock parenthood the s radicals espousing free love set the stage for catastrophe among the poor they must account for this now let me get this straight after a nice long rant about how people need to take personal responsibility for their economic and social lives all of a sudden s radicals such as me i guess are responsible for poor people s lifestyles tell me how that works or do you think that poor people are just too dumb to think for themselves there are many reasons for the disintegration of the family and support systems in general among this nation s poor somehow i don t think murphy brown or janis joplin is at the top of any sane person s list you want to go after my generation s vaunted cultural revolution for a lasting change for the worse try so called relevant or values education hey it seemed like a good idea at the time how were we to know you needed a real education first i mean we took that for granted ken perlow apr germinal an cci gadfly ihspc att com l audace toujours de l audace encore de l audace
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re chrysler bailout in article apr magnus acs ohio state edu mconners magnus acs ohio state edu michael r conners writes plug this one in i m a conservative i hate pee cee s although i have to use one at work and am a proud owner of a next station the real question should the feds bail out steve jobs next a la chrysler so that important manufacturing jobs wouldn t be lost you have just reminded me of an old tom paxton song i m changing my name to chrysler tom paxton oh the price of gold is rising out of sight and the dollar is in sorry shape tonight what the dollar used to get us now won t buy a head of lettus no the economic forecast isn t right but amidst the clouds i spot a shining ray i caneven glimpse a new and better way and i ve devised a plan of action worked it down to the last fraction and i m going into action here today chorus i am changing my name to chrysler i am going down to washington d c i will tell some power broker what they did for iacoca will be perfectly acceptable to me i am changing my name to chrysler i am heading for that great receiving line so when they hand a million grand out i ll be standing with my hand out yes sir i ll get mine when my creditors are screaming for their dough i ll be proud to tell them all where they can go they won y have to scream and holler they ll all be paid to the last dollar where the endless streams of money seam to flow i ll be glad to tell them all what they can do its just a matter of a simple form or two it s not renumeration it s a liberal education ain t you kind of glad that i m in debt to you chorus since the first first amphibians crawled out of the slime we ve been struggling in an unrelenting climb we were hardly up and walking before money started talking and it s sad failure is an awful crime it s been that way for a millennium or two but now it seems there s a different point of view if you re a corporate titanic and your failure is gigantic down in congress there is a safety net for you chorus perhaps steven jobs should take paxton s advice and change his name to chrysler or perhaps set himself up as an s l maybe neil bush could give him a hand akasacou alfred ccs carleton ca no eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn j morrison the opinions expressed above are mine like anyone else would admit to them
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re stop putting down white het males in c fhg mea ocsmd ocs com mark ocsmd ocs com mark wilson writes yuri villanueva elmo cybernet cse fau edu wrote pbray envy reed edu public account writes in article apr galileo cc rochester edu as b uhura cc rochester edu tree of schnopia writes in apr jato jpl nasa gov michael neuron jpl nasa gov michael rivero writes we are told by u s congresswoman barbara jordan that we are biologically incapable of compassion personally i doubt she said anything of the kind but if someone can provide the original quote in context with source for ahem cross checking i would we willing to agree she is full of sh t naturally if no one can provide these bits of data the paraphrase listed must be disregarded and its poster regarded as full of sh t ok so which will it be i followed up without a thought of double checking if i double checked every fact people vomited onto the table here on the net i d never have time to sleep but to pass the buck to the person who originally posted that quote well michael take it away wild applause drewcifer bi andrew d simchik schnopia as b uhura cc rochester edu treewater words weren t made for cowards happy rhodes
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re top ten reasons not to aid russians julie eddie jpl nasa gov julie kangas writes in article c fnh cvo news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes with a tip of the hat to david letterman for making the top ten format so popular top ten reasons that conservatives don t want to aid russia looking around who where don t look at me i want to send aid to russia many other conservatives do as well julie disclaimer all opinions here belong to my cat and no one else yes it was nixon who was most vocal about giving money to russia it makes me proud to be a libertarian it appears both conservatives and liberals prefer to cold war until you win then nurse the enemy back to health for another go around it s like subsidizing the wealthy countries japan germany etc with free defense and then trade warring with them because of the economic competition it s like subsidizing tobacco farmers while paying bureaucrats to pursuade people not to smoke i ask myself what law could we pass to prevent government from doing stupid frivilous things with our money then i think the constitution was supposed to do that could someone please tell me what legitimate constitutional power the federal government is using when it takes money from my paycheck and gives it to needy countries seriously roger collins if we were directed from washington when to sow and when to reap we would soon want bread thomas jefferson
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re reward ajteel dendrite cs colorado edu a j teel writes if you are a united states citizen and a resident of the state then your citizenship is in d c and thus are a th amendment citizen are you a citizen of the state in which you live if you are a resident then you are not so the only people who are citizens of a state are ones who don t live in that state so am i a citizen of other states since i live in california
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re motor voter kaldis romulus rutgers edu theodore a kaldis writes when i entered st grade eisenhower was president and john f kennedy was just a relatively obscure senator from new england so how old do you think i am now and we all hope teddy that you will graduate from the first grade while clinton is president keep trying disclaimer remialcsid
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re why not concentrate on child molesters in article apr armory com rstevew armory com richard steven walz writes in article c ti g c exnet co uk sys exnet co uk xavier gallagher writes in article c obck unix portal com drakon shell portal com harry benjamin gibson writes there is something that bothers me about this whole arguement could someone please calmly explain why homosexuality is such a great sin without giving the standard just because god sez so almost all of judeo thanks for your posting i enjoyed it the reason homosexuality is a sin is because the jews were a struggling group of people trying hard to survive and differentiate between themselves and their oppressors this led to several things worshipping one god all their foes were polytheistic all sex was put in to a moral context all their foes were perverts and spilled their seed liberally it s just as easy to spill seed or spread it thin heterosexualy why then the specific prohibition on homosexuals especially since the answer to everything back then was stoning to death doesn t help population growth much also to just say that their foes were perverts begs the question the key word is spilled if semen was spilled anywhere where there was a chance of procreation it was ok if it was spilt on the ground or in to a man it was a big sin ditto with animals the jews said sex pro creation homosexuals didn t breed there fore they are evil and should be stoned to death all sex was directed towards breeding the jews were few in number and their foes many to survive everything had to go into multiplication like i said stoning to death doesn t help population much it sounds more like a set of prejudices that already existed and were blown into a religion to emphasize the differences of jewish culture and enshrine some pretty stoning non breeding population was fine only the breeders were considered to be worth much jesus judaism original prejudiced bullshit i ll buy the bullshit he was a profound misogynist as well he might have been bitterly gay himself no record of marriage rsw ben gibson xavier richard steven walz rstevew deeptht armory com xavier xavier gallagher play cheap part time dark overlord by s xjg exnet co uk world wide uucp of the universe email feeds e mail advanced dungeons dragons
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re so why does clayton cramer fixate on molesting children in article ripbc cunyvm bitnet ripbc cunyvm bitnet writes from cramer optilink com clayton cramer the homosexuals have gotten a law passed in california that makes it illegal to discriminate against a person in employment based on their sexual orientation and not defined sexual orientation pedophilia is a sexual orientation got him cramer is now claiming that pedophilia is a sexual orientation rather than a chronicly homosexual condition this changes the whole argument in as much that is pedophilia is a sexual orientation all of its own peds cannot be called homosexual peds are peds who may have a preference as to the sex of the child they molest though most do not have a preference but that is a subset of their basic ped nature cramer has as much as admitted that peds and gay men are different orientations all we need now is to get him to admit that the apparent similarities he keeps on about are just optical illusions xavier xavier gallagher play cheap part time dark overlord by s xjg exnet co uk world wide uucp of the universe email feeds e mail advanced dungeons dragons
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re damn furriners be taken over kaldis romulus rutgers edu writes kaldis you are a worm rank balderdash america s reputation abroad has become tarnished because of feckless and pusillanimous cowards who apparently do not have the requisite gonads to stand up for american honor and dignity translation it s them damn liberals again the american way may not be the only way and you may not consider it to be necessarily the best way but by god it s our way and we re going to stick with it if you can t go along with the program then perhaps you should consider moving elsewhere who gave you the authority to create and enforce this rather hazy thing called the american way this is a democracy and we don t need to stick to it or stick up for it unless we so choose remember that ted from civics class in greeley co that is exactly the problem with canadians they don t stand for anything with certitude nice generalization you pipsqueak you mouse if you are sorry to intrude then why do it don t you have the courage of your convictions hell do you even have any convictions to start with what kind of example of manly dignity is this sheesh coming from such a crass example of manly dignity he must feel really hurt jon jac y virginia edu
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re tieing abortion to health reform is clinton nuts in article c z xw ef news cso uiuc edu parker ehsn cen uiuc edu writes i like the way people call it cruel and unusual punishment as if imprisonment isn t cruel too lethal injection pales in comparison and they have a death sentence because they were convicted of a cruel and unusual crime it s not what they did that matters it s what you do and what i do and what we do in response that matters do we lessen ourselves by killing in response to killing it s vengeance that s all it s no deterrent it serves no purpose but to slake somebody s blood lust it would be nice though if we never convicted someone of a crime they didn t commit and it would make the death penalty much more justifiable yeah yeah yeah and sure would be nice if we didn t apply the death penalty disproportionately to minorities i ll revisit my opinion on the death penalty when there are more whites up for it than blacks i e when hell freezes over c j silverio cj sgi com ceej well sf ca us the people causing the trouble were socialists and homosexuals the typical sort of person who opposes us don treshman ex klansman leader of the pro life group rescue america on bbc tv april
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re prolifer or terrorist threat in article c za h ihd wetware com drieux wetware com writes in article pamhpinn d geraldo cc utexas edu taite ccwf cc utexas edu writes i m prepared to instruct individuals in the proper use and handling of firearms as a desert storm vet with six years in the national guard i have a great deal of experience in handling weapons and tactical training ps anyone up for a discussion of counter sniper operations security drills your friend the counter terrorist operation if twit promises to train them in tactics and weapons handlings i doubt any of them will last long enough to become terrorists look for a sudden rise in firearms accidents among the fiends of the fetus though
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re top ten reasons not to aid russians in c fnh cvo news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes top ten reasons that conservatives don t want to aid russia edited now that s funny remembering that good humor always dances uncomfortably close to the truth i can t wait to see the inevitable flames paul barnett mpp os development convex computer corp richardson tx
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re california insurance commissioner endorses federal legislation to protect consumers from scam insurance companies johne vcd hp com john eaton writes nigel allen ndallen r node hub org wrote here is a press release from the california department of insurance california insurance commissioner endorses federal legislation to protect consumers from scam insurance companies i may be a little dense but i would have thought that protecting consumers from scam insurance companies would be the prime objective of something called the cal insurance commission if they aren t accomplishing that now then why do we need them very simple an insurance commissioner is a bureaucrat a regulator it is his her duties to make rules to enforce laws he she cannot make laws if there is no law that covers a specific subject say scam insurance companies a regulator cannot create one so they have to go to a proper legislative body to get such a law enacted for the california insurance commissioner there are two possible legislative bodies the california state legislature and the u s congress we all know how little the california state legislature accomplishes esp along the lines of insurance reform legislation negative movement so garamendi wants the feds to do it because a he has a better chance of getting a federal law through and b since many of the scam companies work across state lines national borders it is better to have a law that reach out into other jurisdictions john eaton hp vcd johne
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re celebrate liberty in article apr dsd es com bob waldrop f n z fidonet org bob waldrop writes what did this have to do with sf and please don t answer that a number of libertarians are sf fans or vice versa i know a number of sf fans who are also baseball fans but i don t plan on posting the red sox schedule jim mann stratus computer jmann vineland pubs stratus com
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clinton s sister shalala last night i heard something about bill clinton s sister being involved in a marijuana bust and the news being suppressed i also heard something about her being an ex con this source is not reliable though it was a collage booklet advertising a local band can anyone on the net verify this or provide more details i m surprised i haven t seen anything about this in this newsgroup also does anyone know what happened to the charges that shalala was a regular pot smoker when she was in college this ghastly accusation was reported on cnn streamline news the day she was nominated then i never heard anything about it again it s almost enough to make me want to start an act up type campaign to invade the privacy of closet smokers if only this type of publicity didn t violate people s rights jake what s so interdisciplinary about studying lower levels of thought process jacob galley gal midway uchicago edu
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re sexual proposition sexual harassment in article pkkidinnsrj senator bedfellow mit edu wdstarr athena mit edu william december starr writes in article mar pmafire inel gov cdm pmafire inel gov dale cook said a real world data point a person has a much stronger legal claim for harrassment sexual or otherwise if they make it clear to the offender that their behaviour is unwanted if the behaviour persists harrassment is much easier to demonstrate due to the fact that the offender knew that the behaviour was unwanted no argument here my original query regarded the question of why the first sexual proposition made by person a to person b would be considered to be sexual harassment by some many people assuming of course that there does not exist a power relationship between a and b such that the proposition carries strong implications of extortion right from word one i can only say that those people are wrong the word harass means to irritate or torment persistently i d hardly consider one time to fall under the definition of persistent additionally there is no basis to assume the behaviour is unwanted unlike an illegal proposition of course i think the original question of offering money for sex is inarguably harrassment because the activity is illegal and could be presumed to be unwanted by the average citizen i have to take issue with this viewpoint given that a prostitution is a victimless crime and b there are literally millions of americans who participate in some sort of victimless activities which the state has defined to be criminal e g prostitution obscenity gambling using certain recreational drugs having non mercenary sex with persons not one s spouse in certain states having unnatural sex with people regardless of marital status or exchange of money in certain states etc i d have to say that the idea that an activity may be presumed to be unwanted by the average citizen merely because it is illegal is the sort of sophistry that only a judge could indulge in with a straight face he said speaking as a law student who s read his share of judicial opinions in which reality was not only denied but in fact actually inverted in order to make the universe conform to the writer s politics i was speaking from a legalistic viewpoint what you say is true but the law in order to make what little sense it manages to make has to make some assumptions assuming that an illegal activity is unwanted by the average citizen i think is reasonable certainly i would need a preponderance of evidence on the side of the propositioner that there was a reasonable belief that the proposition was welcome the number of people who participate in victimless crimes notwithstanding the fact reamins that under the law the activity is illegal to presume that the proposition is welcome simply because a large number of people indulge in it is the type of sophistry only a lawyer could indulge in with a straight face dale cook any town having more churches than bars has a serious social problem edward abbey the opinions are mine only i e they are not my employer s
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re top ten reasons not to aid russians in article c wj y encore com rcollins ns encore com roger collins writes julie eddie jpl nasa gov julie kangas writes in article c fnh cvo news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes with a tip of the hat to david letterman for making the top ten format so popular top ten reasons that conservatives don t want to aid russia looking around who where don t look at me i want to send aid to russia many other conservatives do as well yes it was nixon who was most vocal about giving money to russia it makes me proud to be a libertarian it appears both conservatives and liberals prefer to cold war until you win then nurse the enemy back to health for another go around enemy sounds like that s the viewpoint of the stereotypical rednecked conservative always been commies always will be i suggest you listen very carefully to the stuff yeltsin and his people are saying and compare that with the very anti west slogans coming from his opponents in the russian congress i sure know who i want to back oh btw germany has sure come back as a terrible enemy after wwii hasn t it it s like subsidizing the wealthy countries japan germany etc with free defense and then trade warring with them because of the economic competition it s like subsidizing tobacco farmers while paying bureaucrats to pursuade people not to smoke better to let them degenerate into civil war remember all those nuclear weapons in russia i cannot imagine that they would not be used in a civil war if nationialists take over and even if they prevent a civil war most feel they must take back large parts of land that are in other countries like ukraine i also cannot imagine ukraine giving up land without a fight possibly nuclear how does this affect us well we are on the same planet and if vast tracks of europe are blown away i think we d feel something a massive breakup of a country that spans th the planet is bound to have affects here of course there is also the humanitarian argument that democracies should help other democracies or struggling democracies i ask myself what law could we pass to prevent government from doing stupid frivilous things with our money then i think the constitution was supposed to do that could someone please tell me what legitimate constitutional power the federal government is using when it takes money from my paycheck and gives it to needy countries seriously seriously everyone has different opinions on what is stupid my two causes are aid to russia and a strong space program someone else will champion welfare or education or doing studies of drunken goldfish that is why we have a republic and not a true democracy instead of gridlock on a massive scale we only have gridlock on a congressional scale btw who is to decide stupid this is just like those who want to impose their morals on others just the sort of thing i thought libertarians were against actually my politics are pretty libertarian except on this one issue and this is why it is impossible for me to join the party it seems that libertarians want to withdraw from the rest of the world and let it sink or swim we could do that years ago but not now like it or not we are in the beginnings of a global economy and global decision making julie disclaimer all opinions here belong to my cat and no one else
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re so why does clayton cramer fixate on molesting children in article apr armory com talk politics misc alt sex soc men rstevew armory com richard steven walz writes in article ripbc cunyvm bitnet ripbc cunyvm bitnet writes i think the dialogue would go better if at least some gays showed awareness of a practical issue for example men and women use different toilets hence men who are likely to abuse girls have that avenue closed to them there are many other situations where it is easy to prevent sexual abuse between the two sexes through such measures and social conventions it is harder to prevent it with gays but if those gays who do not abuse children nor want to became aware that this is a practical problem that we can solve with good will on both sides then we can have protection for parents and children at the same time as protection for gays in those ways that are of importance to their pursuit of happiness in their own way just a thought rohit parikh sorry rohit but you are responding to someone well recognized as a flaming nut i e clayton cramer he must have been abused by a man and is living his life in an attempt to vilify all men who like sex with other men something slightly similar to the way his assailant liked it with him he will alter or misrepresent anything he finds to try to prove that there are homosexuals who wish to rape little boys like he was coming out of the woodwork there is no hope for him in all probability he is secretly gay which compounds his neurosis in his own mind by thinking that someone else made him that way i don t personally see how someone like him could walk and chew gum at the same time as mentally crippled and dominated as he is by his fantasies he would have you believe that the figures on the percentage of people who like to do it with the same sex sometime or all the time is way smaller than it is but then he will virtually assert that everyone s queer and they re trying to get him he actually believes despite all evidence that homosexuals do some huge disproportionate amount of child sexual abuse even though he insists that there may be as few as of them in the male population if there were that few of them in the population san francisco would currently be empty because a significant portion of them have sought a tolerant atmosphere in that city and the numbers simply do not work when you add up their home town origins there is nothing to be gained by communicating with clayton cramer he is unable to listen to anyone rsw richard steven walz rstevew deeptht armory com maple street without safe and free abortion women are santa cruz ca organ surrogates to unwanted parasites real men would never accept organ slavery and will protect women sorry but i don t see how the response applies to what was posted unless i am badly mistaken rohit is suggesting that protecting boys from men is different than protecting girls from men there are situations in which boys and girls are apart from members of the opposite sex due to social convention or whatever and thus are safe in at least some sense these same situations don t necessarily protect the children from abuse by members of the same sex if we can understand that it s not such a tremendous leap to suggest that if we all think about it hard someone may come up with a practical solution or even a partial solution to some of the situations in which children are made vulnerable to homosexuals who wish to abuse them by working together with good will on both sides we may be able to start solving problems without restricting anyone s freedoms mr walz on the other hand is using rohit s post as an excuse for personal attacks on mr cramer while mr walz hasn t by a long stretch been the only one to flame mr cramer it is no less childish and it only serves to weaken any other arguments he may make in the future rick roy usenet rick howtek mv com america online qed disclaimer my employer s views are orthogonal to these the early bird got worms
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re why is tax evasion not considered unpatriotic ipser solomon technet sg ed ipser writes there is a deeper reason taxes by their very nature are un american one need only look at the birth and history of the us to see this fact so that s why the newly independent states all had tax systems tim smith
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re why not concentrate on child molesters in article pdxgate uucp a cb rigel cs pdx edu chris bertholf writes mcartwr auvm american edu martina cartwright writes the official and legal term for rape is the crime of forcing a female to submit to sexual intercourse please supply me with some references i was not aware that all states had the word female in the rape statutes i am sure others are surprised as well i know thats how it works in practice nice n fair not but was unaware that it was in the statutes as applying to females only uniformly throughout the u s i agree mostly with chris it is unfortunately imo true that the fbi figures for rape based on the uniform crime report report only female rapes however some states such as illinois are not tabluated because they refuse to comply with this sexist definition the worms crawl in the worms crawl out the worms post to the net from your account
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re why not concentrate on child molesters in article c vrii h exnet co uk s xjg exnet co uk xavier gallagher writes in article optilink com cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes in article c obck unix portal com drakon shell portal com harry benjamin gibson writes they believe that they have a right to force people to hire them rent to them and do business with them regardless of the feelings or beliefs of the other person cramer you are off your target again the law forces no one to obey it at every point any individual may stand up and say this law sucks even you could say this gay men and women have not forced you mean they passed a law that does nothing at all no enforcement mechanisms as usual you are wrong any off this changes in the law have been brought about by democratic processes those same processes are the ones that protect you from certain abuses yeah right i guess the next time a homosexual complains about sodomy laws i can just echo your stupidity about democratic processes and he won t have any basis for complaint i must admit that i never understood why it is referred to as an abomination until i started to read soc motss and started finding evidence that homosexuality is a response to child molestation which is disproportionately done by homosexuals just to make brian kane happy of molestation is done by homosexuals and bisexuals but it is possible that this is because homosexual bisexual molesters have far more victims than heterosexual molesters no it isn t no it isn t no it isn t and it depends on the subset note subset of abuse you look at repeating it three times makes it more correct clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all xavier gallagher play clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
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re why not concentrate on child molesters in article apr kosmos wcc govt nz quirke a kosmos wcc govt nz writes cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes i thought i was clear because homosexuals support laws to force employment of homosexuals against the will of some employers they are attempting to interfere with private acts between mutually consenting adults ok i ll leave others to discuss your use of statistics but i think i m able to discuss liberterian ideas the ideas are good they seek to maximise individual rights by keeping governments out of transactions between consenting adults if an employer wants to discriminate against a group she he should be allowed to to maximise their freedom the discriminatees can go elsewhere unfortunately it doesn t relate to maximising total individual rights within a community if an employer or shopkeeper or whatever can discriminate in this way then the freedom of the discriminatee goes down because people do not live in perfect economic conditions with perfect mobility unlimited numbers of potential employers of their skills unlimited places to buy goods the liberterian argument leads to a decrease in the amount of liberty in the community you mean if a large part of the population supports discrimination against homosexuals they will be injured but if a large part of the population supports such discrimination how did that law get passed tony quirke wellington new zealand quirke a kosmos wcc govt nz clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
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re why not concentrate on child molesters in article pdxgate uucp a cb rigel cs pdx edu chris bertholf writes mcartwr auvm american edu martina cartwright writes the official and legal term for rape is the crime of forcing a female to submit to sexual intercourse please supply me with some references i was not aware that all states had the word female in the rape statutes i am sure others are surprised as well i know thats how it works in practice nice n fair not but was unaware that it was in the statutes as applying to females only uniformly throughout the u s chris there may be some confusion here the uniform crime reports program run by the fbi defines rape as a female victim only crime even though some states have the laws de sexed i suspect that this causes male victims of rape to be left out of the ucr data clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
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re ca s pedophilia laws in article apr hobbes kzoo edu k hobbes kzoo edu jamie r mccarthy writes cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes unfortunately homosexuals don t believe in this concept of freedom they believe that they have a right to force people to hire them rent to them and do business with them regardless of the feelings or beliefs of the other person allow me to point out that clayton is once again unfairly lumping an entire class of people as if they all have one will having completely dived into the abyss of believing that there are no queers in the world who think differently from the child molestation advocating minority on soc motss he doesn t even notice that he s starting a sentence with they believe when the referent of that they is millions of people so few as to be irrelevant if you don t want to be lumped together as a group stop insisting on being treated as a member of a group dreitman oregon uoregon edu daniel r reitman attorney to be writes force people to hire no require people to give them a fair look yes cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes you give them a fair look you decide that you don t want to hire the guy wearing the nambla t shirt he files a lawsuit you lose yes such laws force you to hire homosexuals pedophiles as well sexual orientation is not defined by the anti discrimination law that was passed last year pedophilia isn t a sexual orientation and cramer let me describe how you d have it and see if this is accurate i apply for a job at a computer company they see i m wearing some article of homosexual adornment i dunno maybe a silence death pin or something they turn me down because of that i can t do a darned thing and have to go look somewhere else am i correct in assuming that you wholeheartedly approve of the company s actions or at least that you wholeheartedly support their right to take that action i wholeheartedly support their right to take this action i wouldn t do it myself unless it was something like the nambla t shirt how about a black man applies for a job at a bank the bank decides based on statistics a black person would be more likely to steal money and denies the man the job would you support the bank s right to this freedom if not explain how this differs i support their right to do so just like i support your right to engage in sodomy with consenting adults but i think they are doing something wrong i wouldn t do business with such a bank clayton has repeatedly said that california s statutes classify pedophilia as a sexual orientation and that discriminating on the basis of sexual orientation is illegal if true i m frankly amazed but i don t trust clayton to give me the whole story would someone clarify for me whether this is true what sort of discrimination clayton s talking about jobs housing hate crimes and whether the effect of the law is really that a daycare has to hire an admitted pedophile jamie mccarthy internet k kzoo edu applelink j mccarthy here s the law that was passed and signed by the governor the people of the state of california do enact as follows section the purpose of this act is to codify existing case law as determined in gay law students v pacific telephone and telegraph cal d and soroka v dayton hudson corp cal app d prohibiting discrimination based on sexual orientation sec section is added to the labor code to read a sections and prohibit discrimination or disparate treatment in any of the terms and conditions of employment based on actual or perceived sexual orientation b this section shall not apply to a religious association or corporation not organized for private profit whether incorporated as a religious or public benefit corporation clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
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re why not concentrate on child molesters in article gc g b w w honour welly gen nz radagast honour welly gen nz radagast writes cramer optilink com clayton cramer writes unfortunately homosexuals don t believe in this concept of freedom they believe that they have a right to force people to hire them rent to them and do business with them regardless of the feelings or beliefs of the other person ha ha ha oh clayton you re so good so consistent so predictable yup that s right they these homosexual people want to force you to ignore what s none of your fucking business ie i will explain slowly their sexual orientation should be irrelevant as irrelevant as their gender skin colour religious affiliation attitude to hand gun ownership etc they want to force you to hire the best person for the job rent the accomodation to the person who will look after it do business with whoever will make you money yet when a law was proposed for virginia that extended this philosophy to cigarette smokers so that people who smoked away from the work couldn t be discriminated against by employers the liberal gov wilder vetoed it which shows that liberals don t give a damn about best person for the job it s just a power play clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
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re hilter and homosexuals in article ericsc x k apz netcom com erics netcom com eric smith writes gsmith lauren iwr uni heidelberg de gene w smith writes are you saying that people voted for hitler and he became reich chancellor in good part because he used bully boys to attack communists hitler did not become become reich chancellor because people voted for him i m not sure if you meant to imply that or not but i just thought i d bring that up eric smith hitler became chancellor because people voted for his political party that s not a huge difference in a parliamentary system clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
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re lincoln slavery re top ten tricks you can play on the american voter in article apr isc br isc br com steveh thor isc br com steve hendricks writes in article kmitchelc wa hlz netcom com kmitchel netcom com kenneth c mitchell writes slavery makes economic sense it never makes moral sense when human muscle power is an economically valuable asset agricultural slavery might have lasted right up to the first mechanical cotton reaper but no further reapers are cheaper than slaves and don t have to be fed during the winter this argument makes a several fundamental errors first agricultural slavery was not limited to production of cotton in the american south slave labor was used extensively to grow tobacco sugar and rice all of which remained labor intensive enterprises well into the th century and of course in states like kentucky and virginia not well suited to large scale plantations slave labor was used to make one of the most valuable agricultural products of all more slaves in some ways this treatment of humans beings as breeding livestock is the most horrifying aspect of american slavery second although mechanization of cotton production could be expected to reduce the demands for labor eventually it was only in the s the mechanization of cotton production in the south largely eliminated the labor intensive character of the operation long after the first mechanical cotton reaper was invented this is an interesting question steinbeck s grapes of wrath published in the s uses agricultural mechanization of cotton production in arkansas as the cause of the joad family being evicted from the land how many years were involved in the mechanization of cotton farming when did this first appear ken mitchell the powers not delegated to the united states by the steve hendricks domain steveh thor isc br com clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
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re lincoln slavery was re top ten tricks in article apr isc br isc br com steveh thor isc br com steve hendricks writes in article apr rigel econ uga edu depken rigel econ uga edu craig depken writes in article apr princeton edu glhewitt phoenix princeton edu gary livingston hewitt writes labor is a tough one labor is defined economically as the efforts both mental and physical of humans capital is defined as intermediate goods used to create other goods and services now if a slave is considered an intermediate good then the slave has now been dehumanized and is simply a machine not good for the anti slave i e pro human rights argument so slaves are humans and they produce labor sorry the question of defining slave labor is no tough er than defining the labor of a horse an ox or any other livestock both legally and economically in a slave economy slaves are not humans they are livestock can you provide some evidence that the slave states regarded slaves as not humans they were outside our society and similar phrases that basically meant that they didn t have to recognized as having the same rights as a free person but they were never considered not human to my knowledge like a horse that pulls a plow a slave s labor is the return on the capital required to purchase and feed him the parallel is so obvious i m not sure how you missed it after all its was the liberty to use their property as they saw fit that motivated southern planters to emphasize the importance of states rights if that were the case the slave states would not have passed so many laws that restricted the freedom of slave owners to do as they wished with their property examples laws prohibiting manumission without legislative grant laws prohibiting teaching slaves to read write craig steve hendricks domain steveh thor isc br com clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
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talk.politics.misc
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re lincoln slavery re top ten tricks you can play on the american voter in article apr rigel econ uga edu depken rigel econ uga edu craig depken writes in article mar isc br isc br com steveh thor isc br com steve hendricks writes the argument that slavery was a dying institution was often made by is historians mainly southerners who sought to divert attention from the institution as the central issue of the civil war in fact however the argument is specious at best more recent scholarship from the last years demonstrates rather conclusively that the cotton sugar tobacco economy and its reliance on slavery was increasingly dominant in the south prior to the civil war this is because the south did not receive the massive momentum of capital intensive growth that the northern states did compare the northern agricultural system with the southern and you will see a major difference in the capital to labor intensity capital and labor are one and the same in a slave economy except that capital doesn t reproduce quite as readily as slaves did slavery was a dying institution before the cotton gin yes but not in it is true that cotton suffered from price depression in the s the period used to claim that slavery would not have lasted in the south that is not the argument that i have heard it would not have lasted because the growth in the north would not have been sustained for much longer without spilling over to the southern states i e northern industry would have migrated capital to the southern states and with that would have come immigrant labor to the ports of the south e g charleston savannah mobile new orleans etc this would have put the breaks on the slave market and slavery would have been out moded by the capital intensity of competing agriculturalists those that insisted on keeping slaves because of their cruel hearts and hatred for black people would have been driven out of business simple capital to labor ratio read michael parkin microeconomics nd edition and any other basic economics book this assumes that the slave holder dominance over state governments would not have caused the passage of laws to keep out capital from the north since slave holders were prepared to do almost anything else to destroy free markets in order to maintain slavery i do not doubt that they would have passed laws to cripple any serious competitive threat thomas sowell s market and minorities argues that the maintenance of slavery and the costs it imposed on state and local governments discouraged not only capital formation but also outside capital investment in the southern states craig a depken ii clayton e cramer uunet pyramid optilink cramer my opinions all mine relations between people to be by mutual consent or not at all
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