Unnamed: 0
int64 0
11.3k
| label
stringclasses 20
values | content
stringlengths 6
66.5k
|
|---|---|---|
9,700 |
talk.politics.guns
|
nra address could someone email me a usnail address for the nra i d like to write them a letter encouraging them to see to it very emphatically that the nd amendment is restored to the form that the founding fathers intended people like howard metzenbaum seem very intent on diluting the nd amendment to the point where it is no effort for the governmentski to do what they did in waco after all from what i know of the federalist papers it is this kind of tyranny the nd amendment was supposed to be designed to protect against honestly m tanks against the civilian population attack helicopters we need the right to keep and bear anti tank weapons actually if they intend to mass armour against the weakly armed at that civilian population we need the right to field tactical nukes government tyranny who would have ever thought it would happen here i wonder who se house they ll run tanks through next because the gov suspects child abuse maybe yours maybe mine and what is an illegal weapon which they have yet to show us if the nd amendment is designed to do what i believe it is and the gov uses tanks against you government self serving naaaah not here time was when the u s used armour attack helicopters against small countries now we re down to using them against to what amounts to a busload and a half of civilians first they came for the jews but i did not stop them because i was not a jew then they came for the catholics but i did not stop them because i was not a catholic then they came for the lutherans but there was now no one left to stop them rev martin niemoller probably didn t get it verbatim but you get the idea if the nra reads this then never mind about the address god save us james s barker portland state university barker cs pdx edu
|
9,701 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re batf fbi murders almost everyone in waco today in article c t g il news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes in article r rad rl transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com c d tavares writes in article c s ds j news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes the original question was about who started the fire and whether the madmen were inside or outside the compound to which i replied on the possible sanity level of those inside and outside was that your argument well you didn t make it very well you started from the questionable premise that the fire was necessarily an act of insanity rather than an act of negligence or an accident recall one survivor claims that the fire started when a tank knocked over a kerosene lamp kind of makes arguments regarding relative sanity somewhat moot no according to an australian documentary made in the year before the stand off began koresh and his followers all believed he was christ koresh had sex with children and women married to other men in the compound these were the perfect children resulting from the great seed of his magnified horn ex members describe him in ways not dissimilar to the way jim jones has been described point noted have you submitted your faith and sex life for batf clearance better hurry i believe the deadline was april i paid my taxes there was no reference to sex or religion on the form nice evasive maneuver mr chekov but they re still on our tail let me ask it more plainly which of the above complaints about david koresh s religious or sexual proclivities justified an armed raid by the bureau of alcohol tobacco and firearms two of the nine who escaped the compound said the fire was deliberately set by cult members so when they talk to the news reporters directly and relate the same details will you believe them believe them i won t even recognize them and neither will anyone else who doesn t know them personally do you believe they would put impostors before the national tv cameras it s not entirely far fetched nobody outside the compound would know everybody inside the compound don t forget the batf admits having agents inside the compound in any case at this point we are getting conflicting reports from the survivors best wait til more light is shed upon them of course this is no good if you believe in eternal darkness i m simply being the devil s advocate there s reasonable doubt by the boatload standing in the way of anybody totally swallowing the official government story on waco cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
|
9,702 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re batf fbi murders almost everyone in waco today roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes mikey ccwf cc utexas edu strider writes according to an australian documentary made in the year before the stand off began koresh and his followers all believed he was christ koresh had sex with children and women married to other men in the compound these were the perfect children resulting from the great seed of his magnified horn ex members describe him in ways not dissimilar to the way jim jones has been described i don t know how accurate the documentary was however koresh was never convicted of any crimes against children nor was the batf after him for child abuse their purview in this case is strictly in firearms violations so this information is irrelevant to the discussion fbi agents have to pass rigorous psychological examinations and background checks plus those in charge will undoubtedly have to explain their decisions in great detail to congress why would the fbi want to fulfill koresh s own prophecy those in charge will undoubtedly have to explain something but whether their answers even remotely resembles the truth we may never know and who is left alive to care whether the prophecy is fulfilled it only holds meaning for the nine who survived correction the fbi said that two of the cult members said this so far no one else has been able to talk to them so when they talk to the news reporters directly and relate the same details will you believe them if they confirm the story i probably will definitely not until then however mike ruff this above all to thine own s t r i d e r mikey ccwf cc utexas edu self be true polonius those who would sacrifice essential liberties for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety b franklin
|
9,703 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re guns gone good riddance from article apr gnv ifas ufl edu by jrm gnv ifas ufl edu you are loosing there is no question about it of those who vote your cause is considered an abomination no matter how hard you try public opinion is set against the rkba only irrational fools such as yourself are set against rkba there are plenty of people who support it this is the end by the finish of the clinton administration your rkba will be null and void tough titty the government will be overthrown long before that happens a huge millitia composed of all available men and women who care about their country will defeat the forces of the evil klintonistas the people will prevail oh so you think armed citizens alone can t overthrow the government consider this do you think all law enforcement officials and members of the armed forces will turn against the people that they are entrusted to serve not hardly you can count on a lot of people in the army marines air force navy national guard police officers and so on joining in the cause to defend the liberties and freedoms of american citizens count on it the government will not be able to disarm everyone without starting a civil war you had better discover ways to make do without firearms the number of cases of firearms abuses has ruined your cause there is nothing you can do about it those who live by the sword shall die by it the press is against you the public the voting public is against you the flow of history is against you this is it surrender your arms soon enough officers will be around to collect wrong again people will just hide their guns so these officers more like jack booted stormtroopers will not be able to find them them resistance is useless they will overwhelm you one at a time your neighbors will not help you they will consider you more if an immediate threat than the abstract criminal they will unless they are idiots they will realize that if they don t then they will be next including you believe me if what you describe happens they will be coming for more than guns disarming citizens would require that everyone s cherished freedoms and liberties be suspended temporarily more likely they d never be restored unless the people do something about it too fucking bad you have gone the way of the kkk violent solutions are passe avoid situations which encourage criminals then you will be as safe as possible such as it is scott kennedy brewer and patriot before david koresh is a cheap thug who interprets the bible through the barrel of a gun atf spokesman after the atf is a cheap thug who interprets the constitution through the barrel of a gun me
|
9,704 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re nd amendment dead good from article apr gnv ifas ufl edu by jrm gnv ifas ufl edu yea there are millions of cases where yoy say that firearms deter criminals alas this is not provable i think that that there are actually few cases where this is so it certainly is provable around a million americans every year defend themselves with firearms in many of these cases the defender doesn t even have to fire a shot the mere presence of a gun is oftentimes all the deterrent that is needed i don t like violence anymore than anyone else does but taking away the right of americans to keep and bear arms is not the solution to the violent crime problem in this country if honest law abiding citizens are unable to get firearms then they will be preyed on even more by criminals who will be able to acquire guns through illegal channels expect to start seeing the crime syndicates who smuggle drugs into this country start smuggling guns believe me this will happen there is plenty of economic incentive for gangsters to illegaly import guns into this country if guns should be banned by the klintonistas the bulk of firarems are used against unworthy and unnesessary opponents those who posessa a cool jakcet you want those who would argue with you about a parking space those who would take your woman in short trivial and worthless causes statistics por favor too much of this has ruined you cause there is no recovery in the near future federal martials will come for your arms no one will help you you are more dangerous to their thinking than the criminal this is your own fault see my previous post that ought to set you straight the nd amendment is dead accept this find another way people have the right to keep and bear arms no matter what the constitution says that means that even if the nd amendment is repealed the people that s all american citizens fyi will still have the right to keep and bear arms scott kennedy brewer and patriot before david koresh is a cheap thug who interprets the bible through the barrel of a gun atf spokesman after the atf is a cheap thug who interprets the constitution through the barrel of a gun me
|
9,705 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re batf fbi murders almost everyone in waco today in article c spov lre news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes in article r qsrinnc clem handheld com jmd cube handheld com jim de arras writes in article c s ds j news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes i agree that they deserved a trial they had more than days to come out and get their trial they chose to keep the children with them and to stay inside they chose to stay inside even after they were tear gassed i do not find these actions rational even noriega was smart enough to give up and go for the trial he deserved mr roby you are a government sucking heartless bastard unworthy of comment but apparently true my opinion only of course humans died yesterday humans who would not have died if the fbi had not taken the actions they did that is the undeniable truth i cried for them nor would they have died if they had come out with their hands empty that is undeniable truth no it is not it is possible the fbi planned for this to happen and the gunfire heard was the fbi keeping the folks inside i m not proposing this as the way it went down but just to point out that it s not undeniable that if they walked out yesterday they would be alive today my heart bleeds just as much as yours for the children who were never released given days of ample opportunities to do so my heart also bleeds for people so blinded by religious devotion to not have the common sense to leave the compound when tanks came up and started dropping in tear gas early in the morning my heart bleeds for no one you are the bleeding heart and i m sure beyond any possible doubt that you do not feel for those people as i do you can not say the heartless things you have said if you did you seem to say they got what they deserved i do not think this however if they did set the fire which started in more than one place and spread very quickly then they got what they wanted and put into motion themselves they got what they wanted what kind of creature are you that you can believe this i see the batf is going to be investigated by the justice dept and likely by arlen spectre and congress this is good they have bungled the affair from the start we agree on this now lets have your god the fbi investigated too jim jmd handheld com i m always rethinking that there s never been a day when i haven t rethought that but i can t do that by myself bill clinton april if i were an american as i am an englishman while a foreign troop was landed in my country i never would lay down my arms never never never william pitt earl of chatham nov jim jmd handheld com i m always rethinking that there s never been a day when i haven t rethought that but i can t do that by myself bill clinton april if i were an american as i am an englishman while a foreign troop was landed in my country i never would lay down my arms never never never william pitt earl of chatham nov
|
9,706 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re boston gun buy back mpetro brtph bnr ca myron petro p writes ron miller wrote when you ask the question of the authorities or sponsors of buyback programs whether they will check for stolen weapons and they answer no it s total amnesty good point about registration schemes being used only for harassment deleted i would also like to point out that this is receiving stolen property and is no different than a pawn shop owner doing the same thing myron petro nra uspsa dvc y all the opinions included in this post are my sole responsibility and are protected by the first amendment and guarnteed by the second amendment an interesting idea consider at any locality where a buy back program is being instituted get a list of guns they received and compare serial numbers with a list of stolen guns and sue the people responsible for the program if those guns were destroyed criminal charges can also be made receiving stolen property destruction of private property etc
|
9,707 |
talk.politics.guns
|
is it really apples to apples lawful vs unlawful use of guns i have been convinced of the right of americans to an effective self defense but something strikes me as odd among the pro rkba arguments presented here the numbers comparing hundreds of thousands indeed even a million of instances of law abiding citizens deterring criminal activity seem valid to me likewise the number of gun caused homicides each year about year however it is surprising that the evil antigun empire darth vader breathing sound effect here never tries to compare all legitimate gun defenses vs all gun crimes instead it s always all legitimate gun defenses which includes cases in which the criminals are shot but not killed and cases in which the criminal is not here vs just criminal gun homicides which only includes case sin which the victim died why is this of course it wouldn t be unreasonable to say that in each crime already measured involving guns the consequnces are already known and it is safe to assume that a gun based bank robbery last week will not suddenly turn into a gun basd robbery homicide whereas in the legitimate gun defenses one may assume that all those criminals who were deterred would have committed more crime or more serious crimes had they not been deterred case kim kim husc harvard edu
|
9,708 |
talk.politics.guns
|
my gun is like my ame mark wilson responding to c d tavares mw so the laws exist and the penalties are as you say but nobody is ever mw prosecuted under these laws they are traded away for easy pleas mw having such gun laws on the books is still better than nothing mw what would the da have traded away in order to get the guilty plea if the mw gun law had not been in effect our liberty right don t even think about enforcing the law and imposing the prescribed penalty let s hose the citizens instead olx madness takes its toll please have exact change ye olde bailey bbs v bis v bis houston texas yob sccsi com home of alt cosuard
|
9,709 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re my gun is like my american express card in article u uicvm uic edu jason kratz u uicvm uic edu writes in article apr csd newshost stanford edu andy sail stanford edu andy freeman says i have been at a shooting range where gang members were practicing shooting how do we know that they were gang members and not undercover cops or even law abiding menacing minorities btw why the sneer quotes we know because the area that the gun shop shooting range is in is right on the border of the west side of chicago that is a gang infested area there are many many bad things going on in that area also i have several friends that live very close to that area who have had problems with some of these folks by the way where did i say that they were minorities that was what i got from your phrasing too well then were they the ones you saw black you don t deny seem to deny it either do you think that only minorities have gangs not so as far as the quotes are concerned it was totally obvious that they weren t just practicing for marksmanship i don t know about you but i have never seen anyone else practice marksmanship by taking their gun out of their coat as fast as possible and start shooting that is the recommended way to practice with a ccw too aim alone is no good for defense if you can t get the gun rapidly if you would have been there andy it would ve been obvious to you too what outside of prejudice would have made it obvious of course it might not have been who knows all i do know is that i was there i live here and i know that they were gang bangers when you live here long enough it becomes pretty easy to spot them via gang colors gang signs etc yes prejudice is more subtle in the north isn t it one last thing my sister is a social worker she makes it her point to find these things out gang signs colors etc because it is in her best interest to do so she is nice enough to let me know these things so i can watch out for myself as i live right on the border of the west side of the city enough said more than enough i understand you completely jason jim jmd handheld com i m always rethinking that there s never been a day when i haven t rethought that but i can t do that by myself bill clinton april if i were an american as i am an englishman while a foreign troop was landed in my country i never would lay down my arms never never never william pitt earl of chatham nov
|
9,710 |
talk.politics.guns
|
luser awesley wrote that was the entire point to you what exactly did i claim i ve heard eye witness descriptions of tanks using their main guns to respond to sniper fire quite effectively i wasn t wrong i ve heard those descriptions if you re paying attention i ve mentioned that i saw the tanks with my own eyes but the main gun firing was an account i heard that helps people judge whether or not to kick in the to use your words bullshit filters stating that i claimed this is a falsehood later in the same post another part of my memories was that while most damaged building were burnt some were in rubble based on what i remember i was and am inclined to believe an old sarge or two fine now you are stating that you believe their claims or that you are inclined to see below for a stronger statement of your beliefs those claims are still ludicrous however previously awesley had written you can also read of the troops using grenade launchers prompting me to write to fire fragmentary grenades i doubt that as well to fire concussion grenades perhaps to fire tear gas certainly but you would be perfectly willing to let us believe they fired frags wouldn t you since it makes your other claim seem more plausible to which awesley replied john again strawman techniques do you feel you re losing it so you have to stretch what i said and knock that down what i read said nothing about what they fired and so i put nothing in there if you need some help let me know and i l take your side of this for a while you re not scoring here you re boring here but why did you mention grenade launchers at all because it supports the notion that the tanks shelled buildings and it supports that notion because it conjures images of troops launching fragmentary grenades but that too is ludicrous i wrote if tanks had fired their main guns in detroit people would have been screaming about it for the past two and half decades i would know about it awesley relied glad to know you re such an expert nice to hear some an authority i especially appreciate your basis of knowledge if it had happened you would have know it since you are such an authority you probably know that people did scream about an alleged massive cover up in the number of people killed in the detroit riot some claimed dead others said the offical number is but the concise columbia encyclopedia says it was several i ve also heard some things about that but i won t dare repeat them you d assert that i claimed they were truth yes if it happened i would have heard about it everybody would have army tanks don t fire their cannons in american cities in the s without it becoming common knowledge without minority leaders seizing on it and condemning it over and over again without civil libertarians saying this has gone far enough so yes my never hearing of it was the basis for my disbelieving the claim now i have more reasons to disbelieve it not one poster has written to say yes i lived in detroit at that time and everybody knew that the tanks had fired shells this is the usenet if it had happened somebody here would remember it furthermore your own research failed to come up with any support for the claim the claim is extraordinary and it has no supporting evidence extraordinary or not unless you count the brags of a couple of guardsmen shooting the shit i do not i wrote unless you also claim that the national guard managed to cover it up awesley wrote taking the tour after the riots it was pretty easy to tell the difference between army and guard troops or so i recall from years ago and i seem to recall it was the army running the tanks so it would have been an army cover up quibble fine it was an army cover up six years in the reserves has taught me the difference also but do you think that in two and half decades not one guilt ridden participant has come forward and said yes i shelled americans or i gave the orders to fire the cannons or i helped cover it up i wrote if your mind is open enough to believe that well good for you i prefer to live in reality and here in reality i find it hard to believe that those tanks even had any shells much less fired them awesley replied given the level in destruction in detroit i m quite willing to believe that they did fire their guns good then we can drop the junk about you not claiming that they did your belief fails a basic reality check why isn t it known awesley concludes now then we ve bored the shit out of anyone whose bothered to read this far and all you ve managed to say is that you don t believe the account i cited actually now we have established that i don t believe what you believe as well as why i don t believe it and if it s boring then i yield the last word to you if you want it you may say anything you like with impunity i am dropping the subject john l scott
|
9,711 |
talk.politics.guns
|
apology was luser i was shocked to see that the subject of my last rely to awesley was luser that was certainly not my intention i meant to leave the subject line unchanged i believe that the nntp server i use at columbia must have put in that subject line in protest over problems with my header that was rather rude of them but beggars can t be choosers i suppose in any case i didn t do it and i apologize to awesley for the apparent insult john l scott
|
9,712 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re gritz jbs liberty lobby larouche christic insitute libertarian in article u uicvm uic edu u uicvm uic edu writes note that bo gritz was on the populist party ticket with david duke for veep in until he found out that duke was leading he ticket when he withdrew his candidacy so gritz gave up his chance to be vice president of the us just to aviod supporting duke i d hardly call that giving up his chance to be vice president of the us the chance of the populist party ticket winning is essentially nil still it does imply that he doesn t want to be associated with duke robert
|
9,713 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re is it really apples to apples lawful vs unlawful use of guns in article apr husc harvard edu kim scws harvard edu john kim writes i have been convinced of the right of americans to an effective self defense but something strikes me as odd among the pro rkba arguments presented here the numbers comparing hundreds of thousands indeed even a million of instances of law abiding citizens deterring criminal activity seem valid to me likewise the number of gun caused homicides each year about year however it is surprising that the evil antigun empire darth vader breathing sound effect here never tries to compare all legitimate gun defenses vs all gun crimes instead it s always all legitimate gun defenses which includes cases in which the criminals are shot but not killed and cases in which the criminal is not here vs just criminal gun homicides which only includes case sin which the victim died why is this of course it wouldn t be unreasonable to say that in each crime already measured involving guns the consequnces are already known and it is safe to assume that a gun based bank robbery last week will not suddenly turn into a gun basd robbery homicide whereas in the legitimate gun defenses one may assume that all those criminals who were deterred would have committed more crime or more serious crimes had they not been deterred i think its an attempt to show lives saved v lives lost all other gun related crimes don t result in lives lost on the other hand its impossible to know how many of the successful self defenses prevented lives from being lost in other words the lives lost is pretty clear its the homicide and non negligent manslaughter number while the lives saved is some percentage of the successful self defenses clearly that percentage doesn t have to be real high to show that lives saved lives lost as a semi related point check out kleck s point blank i believe it goes into some related areas it also is well written and informative case kim kim husc harvard edu michael phelps external mjp vnet ibm com internal mjp bwa kgn ibm com mjp at kgnvmy and last but not least a disclaimer these opinions are mine
|
9,714 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re insane gun toting wackos unite fcrary ucsu colorado edu frank crary university of colorado boulder i don t know about animal attacks but there are murders each year and under die in the manner you suggest if only of the murders were killings by wacko s you would be wrong worse there are also rapes and aggravated assaults each year these numbers make violent attacks and preventing them thousands of times more significant than the accidents you are worried about these stats are invalid we re talking backcountry these stats for rapes assaults deaths do not represent the backcountry singularly the great majority represent urban incidents you should have pointed this out rob
|
9,715 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re some more about gun control in article apr mtu edu cescript mtu edu charles scripter writes this mention of a well regulated militia is what confuses me according to the federalist paper s a well regulated militia has a well defined structure and follows nationally uniform regulations perhaps you should actually read the federalist papers perhaps you should reread federal which deals exclusively with the well regulated malitia here is what is says about its character to oblige the great body of the yeomanry and of the other classes of the citizens to be under arms for the purpose of going through military exercises and evolutions as often as might be necessary to acquire the degree of perfection which would entitle them to the character of a well regulated militia it also talks about the well regulated militia having a nationally uniform in structure and disipline i will note you did quote the end of this particular paragraph which states little more can reasonably be aimed at with respect to the people at large than to have them properly armed and equipped and in order to see that this be not neglected it will be necessary to assemble them once or twice in the course of a year but do you knew how much organization is required to training a large group of poeple twice a year just to try to get the same people every year provide a basic training to new people so they can be integrated into the force and find a suitable location it requires a continually standing committee of organizers since a well regulate militia is nationally uniform in structure and disipline and meet once or twice a year to train how can you claim a well regulated militia is not well organized but i will concide a well organized militia is not necessarily a well regulated militia several people have stated that the well organized militia is what is defined under usc which states the militia of the united states consists of all able bodied males at least years of age and except as provided in section of title under years of age who are or who have made a declaration of intention to become citizens of the united states and of female citizents of the united states who are commissioned officers of the national guard this deos define the militia but were is the adjective well regulated usc does not define a well regualed militia in any way shape or form it only defines who can become part of a well regulated militia the federalist papers clearly define the well regualed militia as a proper subset of the militia in the same paragraph quoted above it talk above disciplining all the militia of the united states so they fit the character of a well regulated militia this is what the paragraph states about the associated costs it would form an annual deduction from the productive labor of the country to an amount which calculating upon the present numbers of the people would not fall far short of the whole expense of the civil establishments of all the states to attempt a thing which would abridge the mass of labor and industry to so considerable an extent would be unwise and the experiment if made could not succeed because it would not long be endured another quote provide by charles scripter is james madison federalist paper regarding the general welfare clause nothing is more natural nor common than first to use a general phrase and then to explain and qualify it by a recital of particulars so the phrase the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed must either qualify or explain the phrase a well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state the definition of explain as stated in the american hertitage dictionary of the enlish language the new college edition is to make plain or comprehensible remove obscruity from elucidate it was the economists who undertook to explain this puzzle to define explicate expound he explained his plan to offer reasons for or a cause of an answer for justify explain an error the second phrase clearly does not explain the first therefore the second phrase must qualify the first the definition given for qualify is to describe by enumerating the characteristics or qualities of characterize to make competent or suitable for office position or task to give legal power to make legally capable to modify limit or restrict as giving exceptions to make less harsh or severe moderate grammar to modify the meaning of a word or phrase since the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed does not describe modify or make less harsh anything and it has nothing to do with grammar or some sort of position or task by process of elimination it must fall into definition and since deals with legal power the same thing the constitution does it must be the correct definition in this case therefore the right of the people to keep and bear arms gives legal power to the well regualated militia and this legal power shall not be infringed i thank you very much mr scripter you have provided me with more evidence that the second amendment only concerns itseft with the people s right to form well regulate militia and says very little about the right of an untrained person to keep and bear a caliber machine gun and since i totally untrained in the use of any firearm something i personly have meant to correct by going to a nra gun safety course and joining a gun club cannot legally buy such a machine gun i conclude the courts and democraticly elected congress agree with me so now we know which category mr rutledge is in he means to destroy our liberties and rights i mean to destory our liberties and rights is that why a participate in the discussion of exactly what our libertues and rights are i force my version of our liberties and rights by begining statements of what our liberties and rights with all that the second amendment clearly states to me using expressions such as states to me clearly mean i intend to force my views on others i don t think so so in effort not to force my views and not to destory our liberties and rights i state that nothing i have written or will write in the matter of liberties and rights is the final word for i am only one person among many and the final word on liberties and rights cleary and irrevocably belongs to the many if only it were a modern document with a john lawrence rutledge smart index and hyper links stretching all research assistant through the world data net it was terribly frustrating to flip back and forth between interactive media group the pages and crude flat illustrations that computer science department never even moved nor were there animated umass lowell arrows or zoom ins it completely lacked a university ave for sound lowell ma most baffling of all was the problem of new words in normal text you d only have to touch an unfamiliar word and the definition jrutledg cs ulowell edu would pop up just below from david brin s earth
|
9,716 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re handgun restrictions to bbs billand tsoft net subject re handgun restrictions newsgroups talk politics guns in reply to ow b w w tsoft net organization cray research inc cc bcc in article ow b w w tsoft net you write i would like to know what restrictions there are on purchasing handguns ie waiting periods background check etc in the states of nevada and oregon thanks bill bill anderson bbs billand tsoft net in oregon your must get a background check ie fingerprints full slap day waiting period that is unless you have a ccw then all requirments have been meet ernie smith ernie oregon cray com
|
9,717 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re armed citizen april in article apr lds loral com kendall lds loral com colin kendall writes in article apr dazixco ingr com crphilli hound dazixca ingr com writes the armed citizen mere presence of a firearm without a shot being fired prevents crime in many instances as shown by news reports sent to the armed citizen perhaps so but note that of the accounts cited there was only one in which no shot was fired of the other twelve five described cases in which the assailant was wounded by a shot and six described cases in which the assailant was killed by a shot and had not these citizens accepted the moral responsibility to protect their own lives there could well have been at least innocent victims lying dead and several criminals still out walking the streets perpetrating their crimes on others ron phillips crphilli hound dazixca ingr com senior customer engineer intergraph electronics east evelyn avenue voice mountain view ca fax
|
9,718 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re some more about gun control in article qicep obf transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com c d tavares writes in article apr beaver cs washington edu graham cs washington edu stephen graham writes in article qhpcn b transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com c d tavares writes as far as john q public with a gun the supreme court has already ruled in cases such as us v miller u s and us v verdugo urquidez s ct that that is exactly what the amendment protects this interpretation can be found as far back as the dred scott case in it s worth noting that us vs miller sustained miller s conviction of possession of an illegal firearm noting that a sawed off shotgun was not a proper militia weapon no they noted that no one had claimed that it was a proper militia weapon despite having been used in at least two wars this was true since neither miller nor his lawyer appeared before the court did they or did they not sustain miller s conviction i don t have the text of the case handy yes shotguns had been used in wwi the spanish american war and the us civil war that was not in question the possession of a sawed off shotgun was i e a weapon altered to improve concealibility therefore us vs miller supports limited government regulation of firearms don t go arguing down this road unless you are willing to abide by the consequences that you find at the end of it mainly that the law abiding common man has a right to own any weapon that has a militia purpose from handguns to sawed off shotguns and fully automatic weapons that in fact is what this decision says you are free to produce evidence that i m not willing to abide with all the implications of this just because i don t whole heartedly endorse the nra position does not mean that i oppose the rkba this attitude is what makes the nra unpopular stephen graham graham cs washington edu uw beaver june graham
|
9,719 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re luser actually now we have established that i don t believe what you believe as well as why i don t believe it and if it s boring then i yield the last word to you if you want it you may say anything you like with impunity i am dropping the subject john l scott how very kind of you
|
9,720 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re guns in backcountry no thanks in article qkcok s i usenet ins cwru edu ci cleveland freenet edu john k gever writes does anybody reading this group have an actual honest to god experience with violent crime in the backcountry to tell about it was around in the shenandoah valley near woodstock virginia me my wife a friend his wife and his kids were hiking in a totally desolate mountain area all of a sudden large rocks began raining down on us looking up we saw at least punks gleefully letting loose rocks from what was an obvious stash they were a couple hundred feet above us meanwhile the women and kids were screaming and running for cover and the punks were shrieking with laughter me and my friend yelled for them to knock it off they responded that we should get f ed me and my friend drew our pistols and fired a couple of times into the trees above their heads they ran with no more pound rocks coming at our heads we proceeded on our journey sorry but me and my friend saw no need to let it evolve to a more violent level than we were already experiencing i guess we should have tried harder to understand and cope with the anger that society had instilled in them and was driving them to do such things guess that s a cross i ll have to bear brad
|
9,721 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re gun talk legislative update for states viking iastate edu dan sorenson writes lvc cbnews cb att com larry cipriani writes iowa all firearm related bills are dead senate file dealing with off duty police officers carrying concealed remains viable the power of the word processor and a stamp at work the fact that around here the state rep generally lives no more than nine miles from any constituent doesn t hurt either dan sorenson dod z dan exnet iastate edu viking iastate edu isu only censors what i read not what i say don t blame them usenet post to exotic distant machines meet exciting unusual people and flame them does anyone know the particulars on the senate file does this bill allow or deny off duty police from carrying concealed from what information that i have iowa has a discretionary permit policy on ccw if s allows police off duty to carry concealed then i would be inclined to oppose it i don t believe off duty police officers should have any more rights than civilians if law or policy prevents law abiding citizens from being armed for self defense then why should off duty police officer be treated any differently
|
9,722 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re carrying arms in article apr spdc ti com dwhite epcot spdc ti com dan white writes however haven t we already lost our right to bear arms it seems that in most states like texas a citizen may own a gun and carry while at his home or business but a citizen is severely restricted from bearing outside these areas here in texas you cannot carry in your car except when traveling which is usually defined as traveling across a county line how did this come about are there any court rulings on the legality of restricting the carrying of a weapon outside the home in texas it is legal to carry handguns while traveling and also to and from sporting activities chapter of the texas state penal code does not restrict long guns therefore it is legal to carry and transport long guns any place in texas regards clay
|
9,723 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re batf fbi murders almost everyone in waco today jmd cube handheld com jim de arras writes an edu er not towing the party line thank you jim you re welcome actually i m probably something of an outcast because i ve committed the ultimate college student heresy i m not a liberal this is not liberal bashing mike this above all to thine own s t r i d e r mikey ccwf cc utexas edu self be true polonius those who would sacrifice essential liberties for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety b franklin
|
9,724 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re atf burns dividian ranch update ah yes i see a few liberal weenies have come out of the woodwork to defend the burning of the children probably drooled all over themselves while watching the tv coverage probably had a few like that in nazi germany as well oh yeah atf fbi now claims according the the media that there are a few survivors the number seems to vary minute by minute
|
9,725 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re who s next mormons and jews as a minor point of interest earlier news reports claim to have been quoting the governor of texas when her holiness referred to the dividians as mormons and called for their expulsion from tx any texans have details
|
9,726 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors steiner jupiter cse utoledo edu jason think steiner writes ever hear of electric ovens or microwaves very popular electric stoves outside metro areas especially oh i see electricity is a natural right our wonderful government would never cut off the power to the people they were besieging are you really this dumb or just acting like it for the sake of argument jason no they didn t have electrical power but no i don t find the idea of davidians calmly cooking lunch with gas masks on as the fbi knocks the buildings down very credible either it s not like this whole discussion is relevant it started when some one made the wholly unsubstantiated allegation that the wood stove ig nited napalm the fbi shot into the buildings i m not a groveling apoligist for the feds far from it but wild ac cusations like this are ridiculous and obfuscate legitimate criticism of their conduct in this whole affair tom gift tomgift uxa cso uiuc edu
|
9,727 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re atf burns dividian ranch update nut case panics realizes he s made a complete fool of himself in front of thousands of netters backs away from earlier rash statements god have mercy on him
|
9,728 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re ax the atf a few comments on the atf s botched handling of this case dan s and another one hasn t enyone heard of a leader s recon this is when the leader of the assult goes and looks at the objective to see if anything has changed that would affect the mission even the freshman cadets here in rotcland know about them mostly because they know it as the part where they lie on the cold ground for an hour or so but they ve heard about it maybe the atf should have hired out to the local rotc guys andrew diederich diederic spot colorado edu these opinions are only mine on alternate tuesdays
|
9,729 |
talk.politics.guns
|
impeach clinton reno fact both janet reno and bill clinton have admitted responsibility even grief over the deaths in waco fact regardless of who started the fire there are more than enough things on tape to make a civil rights case against these two cruel and unusual punishment dying tortured rabbits on tape come to mind fact it is a federal felony to infringe civil rights under color of law where death is involved this offense carries a penalty of life in prison fact impeachment is allowable for high crimes and misdemeanors anything that s a federal felony should qualify conclusion we have no choice if we are an honest people but to impeach mr clinton and remove reno from office glenn r stone glenns eas gatech edu wearer of asbestos underoos
|
9,730 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors cdt sw stratus com c d tavares writes mfrhein wpi wpi edu michael frederick rhein writes as someone else has pointed out why would the stove be in use on a warm day in texas do you eat all your food cold thank you for pointing out the obvious to people who so clearly missed it i can t stand it when people s first reaction is to defend the aggressor mr tavares you have a unique and thoughtful way of getting to the heart of the matter and i thank you for putting it to good use mike ruff this above all to thine own s t r i d e r mikey ccwf cc utexas edu self be true polonius those who would sacrifice essential liberties for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety b franklin
|
9,731 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors irvine uxh cso uiuc edu brent irvine writes glenns eas gatech edu writes hey gang it s not about duck hunting or about dark alleys it s about black clad helmeted and booted troops storming houses and violating civil rights under color of law are you ready to defend your constitution its also about crazy fatigue clad survivalist types blasting the snot out of people who accidentally stray onto his land in the name of self defense well the count is now at least dead by government action how many have been killed in the last year in the manner you described what no facts oh how silly of me i forgot you don t like guns so you don t need no stinkin facts don t get too self righteous mr gun toter don t get too smug mr gun hater mike ruff this above all to thine own s t r i d e r mikey ccwf cc utexas edu self be true polonius those who would sacrifice essential liberties for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety b franklin
|
9,732 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re who s next mormons and jews in article aej d cmuvm bitnet aej d cmuvm bitnet writes as a minor point of interest earlier news reports claim to have been quoting the governor of texas when her holiness referred to the dividians as mormons and called for their expulsion from tx any texans have details the davidians are a year old splinter from the seventh day adventists if that s the information you were looking for cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
|
9,733 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article c tbwr xi news cso uiuc edu tomgift uxa cso uiuc edu tom gift writes no they didn t have electrical power but no i don t find the idea of davidians calmly cooking lunch with gas masks on as the fbi knocks the buildings down very credible either i don t know how quickly you can get a woodstove to heat up from a cold start but mine takes about three hours it s not like this whole discussion is relevant it started when some one made the wholly unsubstantiated allegation that the wood stove ig nited napalm the fbi shot into the buildings mox nix the bd s were prepared to provide their own heat and light and were doing so for weeks while the power was out that means the compound contained containers of flammable liquids or gases that could be busted by a tank intrusion plus ignition sources which no one can tell for sure were all off at the time i m not a groveling apoligist for the feds far from it but wild ac cusations like this are ridiculous and obfuscate legitimate criticism of their conduct in this whole affair on the contrary we are proposing alternate scenarios the people who are coming to wild conclusions are the feds who are absolutely positive how the fire started even though none of them were in a position to see it either and the stories they hear from their prisoners changes hourly cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
|
9,734 |
talk.politics.guns
|
wi and il firearms law questions a couple of questions for you firearms law experts out there question according to the nra ila state firearms lawbook in wisconsin it is unlawful for any person except a peace officer to go armed with a concealed and dangerous weapon there is no statutory provision for obtaining a lixense or permit to carry a concealed weapon jury instructions indicate that to go armed one must have a firearm on one s person or within his immediate control and available for use does this mean that open carry is allowed if so just how open does it have to be would an in the pants holster be considered concealing what if one had their jacket on and it partially covered the weapon also is there any way to be allowed to carry concealed or is it just not allowed period question as i understand it in evanston il they have a ordinance banning handguns is there any way to get around this provision what would the penalty if you were found out be what if you used said handgun in a defensive shooting in your apartment there how would the city law apply to your impending trial for the shooting also what is il state law concerning short barreled weapons short barreled shotgun is what i would be interested in if a handgun were not available either that or a shortened mm carbine ie colt marlin one more thing what is the chance of getting a ccw permit in il without being rich or famous or related to the mayor please send replies via e mail as things seem to be piling up around t p g a little faster than i can handle thanks again steve syck syck miller cs uwm edu
|
9,735 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors irvine uxh cso uiuc edu brent irvine writes cdt sw stratus com c d tavares writes mfrhein wpi wpi edu michael frederick rhein writes as someone else has pointed out why would the stove be in use on a warm day in texas do you eat all your food cold ever hear of electric ovens or microwaves very popular electric stoves outside metro areas especially hey einstein ever tried to use an electric stove or microwave without electricity it s been shut off for weeks now courtesy of your local fbi assault squad now are you going to put your foot in your mouth or shall i get a crowbar and assist you mike ruff this above all to thine own s t r i d e r mikey ccwf cc utexas edu self be true polonius those who would sacrifice essential liberties for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety b franklin
|
9,736 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re guns gone good riddance cdt sw stratus com c d tavares writes jrm gnv ifas ufl edu writes surrender your arms soon enough officers will be around to collect them resistance is useless don t tell me you re the borg warner right haaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahahahahaha hee hee chuckle this was absolutely fabulous i nearly fell out of my chair laughing wonderful mr tavares my hat is off to you again mike ruff this above all to thine own s t r i d e r mikey ccwf cc utexas edu self be true polonius those who would sacrifice essential liberties for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety b franklin
|
9,737 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re batf fbi murders almost everyone in waco today in article c t ic dc news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes please tell me what you think would have happened had the people come out with their hands up several weeks ago now will you answer my question up top a suggestion cameras panning over planted automatic weapons followed by a show trial and medals all around for the valiant forces of lawn order cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
|
9,738 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article apr batman bmd trw com auerbach batman bmd trw com writes women stand up for your right to be just as stupid as men our new attorney general seems determined to do so in the past few days she has said she hopes the king beating will not reduce public confidince in law enforcement the tactics of using tear gas and driving tanks through walls in waco were intended to further a peacefull solution to the crisis those same tactics were intended to prevent a mass suicide but she never expected the sect to react by killing themselves it s comforting to know at least that she wasn t clinton s first choice frank crary cu boulder
|
9,739 |
talk.politics.guns
|
raid justification was blast them next time in article r chu h pandora sdsu edu chiu io nosc mil francis chiu writes initial assault on the compound more like a wooden farm house if it burned to the ground like it did for what regardless of who started caused the fire none of this would have happened if the atf can honestly justify their initial assault and handled it properly i just got through listening to the o clock news on channel here in dallas they trotted out a list of justifications produced by the atf after months of investigation for their raid i couldn t believe the junk on this list for example the bds were accused of stockpiling a bunch of mm and ammunition that can be used in m and m assault rifles imagine that they had ammunition they also had aluminum dust yeah it s a component of thermite but so far i haven t heard that it s illegal to take a grinder to the aluminum lawn furniture the only thing on the list that could conceivably have been illegal was an m grenade launcher anybody know about this months of investigation for this people died die welt ist alles was zerfall ist peter cash apologies to ludwig wittgenstein cash convex com
|
9,740 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re atf burns dividian ranch update in article aej d cmuvm bitnet aej d cmuvm bitnet writes ah yes i see a few liberal weenies have come out of the woodwork to defend the burning of the children probably drooled all over themselves while watching the tv coverage probably had a few like that in nazi germany as well oh yeah atf fbi now claims according the the media that there are a few survivors the number seems to vary minute by minute
|
9,741 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors just to shed some light on the fire it was widely reported ap etc that there were several witnesses to bd folks starting the fires it has also been reported that the fires broke out in several places at once which rules out a bradley knocking over a lamp etc as the cause what i would like to see is some serious discussion of this incident i believe the moves made were right and proper but i still have some problems with some of the tactics after watching the abc special on it tonight as well as cnn and nightline i question some of the atf and fbi actions could it have been possible to have taken koresh outside the compound at some time before the feb th raid could a further wait have resulted in a different outcome were fbi actions blaring loudspeakers etc the right course of action and a few other questions like i said i believe the actions taken in general were proper but i still have some reservations one other point i m no fan of janet reno but i do like the way she had the balls to go ahead and take full responsibility seems like the waffle boy had problems figuring out just where he stood on the issue
|
9,742 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re some more about gun control first i would like to say how much i appreciate having so literate and erudite an individual as mr rutledge with whom to discuss this topic frankly most anti rkba posters refuse even to approach the topic of the original understanding of the bill of rights as detailed in the writings of the era this is most refreshing second i must apologize for leaving the discussion for several days my brigade s quarterly drill was this weekend and i needed to attend to several matters pertaining to the state militia some people seem to feel that the concept of the militia is an anachro nism that is out of place in the th century i m not sure the swiss would agree and i think perhaps a discussion of how the militia both organized and unorganized fits into the defense plans of my state mississippi please do not assume that this describes something peculiar to one southern state for instance the commonwealth of massachusetts has a well organized militia which members report maintains stocks of both riot guns and machine guns the laws of other states will vary but are probably similar title of mississippi code defines our militia as all able bodied citizens of the state between the ages of seventeen and sixty two years the militia is divided into classes the national guard the mississippi state guard and the unorganized militia the national guard is a strange sort of fish from a constitutional perspective it tries to be both state militia and federal reserve the discussion of this para constitutional arrangement is quite interesting in itself but somewhat beyond the scope of this discussion suffice it that at this date the national guard has ceased to have any constitutional standing as anything but a federal reserve force mississippi and most other states maintains a purely state organized militia in mississippi this is called the state guard in other states it may be called something else the state guard exists as a cadre or training corps made up of mostly experienced officers and senior ncos who serve as volunteers without compensation we drill on a monthly basis at the company and battalion level brigade once a quarter and have an annual drill of the whole organization our state authorized cadre strength is this is a skeleton of an organization without any flesh the muscle and sinew when needed will come from the unorganized militia in time of invasion insurrection or calamity the governor can order the activation of the state guard when this takes place a call will first be made for volunteers to fill the organization out to either its contingency strength of or full strength of in the event that a sufficient number of people fail to volunteer the law provides detailed instructions for the conducting of a draft of the unorganized militia the size of the state guard is not specified by law but rather by executive order at one time the organized militia of mississippi consisted of regiments needless to say the state does not have armories brimming with weapons with which to equip such a force the historical precedent for arming such a force is by use of mostly the private arms of the militiamen it is my hope that demonstrates that state militias are far from being the long dead anachronisms that some may wish to claim no i simple stated that the people have a right to join a well organized militia and i have also stated that a militia that meets once or twice a year is clearly well organized and this state of readiness that i have claimed the people have a right to is the same state of readiness expected of the militia as stated by hamilton regarding hamilton if you take hamilton s opinion as being the sole representative of the opinions of the founding fathers you will have chosen a highly skewed sample set hamilton was on the extreme federalist end of the political spectrum others such as coxe and henry can be chosen to represent the other end many contemporaries felt that the idea of having a standing army of any sort or even a select militia or train bands were contrary to the egalitarian nature of the govern ment they were striving to perfect the compromise reached was to provide for a small army which had to be refinanced every two years and iron clad protection for the militia which was to remain ever terrible and irresistible these protections included state control not federal limitation of federal utilization of the militia i e execute laws suppress insurrections and repel invasions and the right to keep and bear arms to prevent what the british had tried to do at lexington these limitations eventually proved so onerous to the federal govern ment that they were skirted by the creation of the national guard the national guard was created for one very simple reason the constitutional militia was had proved too unreliable for fighting wars of imperial expansion e g spanish american war the constitution provided that the militia could only be employed by the federal government in very limited purposes as far back as the war of militia units had refused to leave united states territory to attack the enemy further there was no constitutional authorization for any conscription of anyone into the federal military and militiamen were particularly protected in all wars until ww i every american who left the country under arms was a volunteer when the national guard acts of required that each new member also enlist as a reservest in the army existing soldiers were grandfathered at least one of these grandfathered individuals refused to go to france in and his refusal was upheld by the federal courts mr rutledge has stated that the second amendment applies only to members of a well organized militia however the pre constitutional history of the american militia shows relatively few periods when the militia came close to meeting either messrs rutledge or hamilton s definition of well organized in the period of peace between the french indian war and the revolution many companies simply stopped drilling and had to be reconstituted just prior to the revolution perhaps mr rutledge would care to argue that those of my ancestors who answered the lexington alarm had forfeited their rights because their units didn t drill for a few years in the s i would not be so bold again i wish to repeat the national guard for all its merits is not the militia described by the constitution nor by mr hamilton nor by mr henry nor by mr coxe the fact that the federal government and many states are delinquent in their attentions to and organizing of their constitutional militias diminishes neither their responsibilities nor the rights of the militia as detailed in the constitution misunderstanding of the nature and purpose of the militia is but one error that has crept into modern readings of the constitution the constitution prohibits states from keeping troops or ships of war in time of peace i have heard some insist this prevents states from maintaining a militia but this comes about because people today do not understand the meanings of the words in their th century usage today we call any large vessel a ship but in the th century the word described a particular kind of vessel a ship is a large vessel with three or more masts each carrying square rigged sails a brig has two masts in the contemporary usage the states were prohibited only from keeping the largest warships of the day those capable of global operations today s equivalent might be a prohibition on the states keeping nuclear missiles troops at this time meant a full time professional military organization any study of contemporaneous writings will bear this out in at least one respect i am in agreement with mr rutledge being personally involved in the maintenance and advancement of the militia as a viable means of defense for a modern society i am frequently both bemused and saddened when friends and associates wax poetic on their place in the unorganized militia and become strangely silent or scarce when invited to attend a drill of their state s militia donald r newcomb university of southern mississippi dnewcomb whale st usm edu this is the way we tax and spend tax dnewcomb falcon st usm edu and spend we re democrats in office
|
9,743 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re riddle me this in article apr jupiter sun csd unb ca j jupiter sun csd unb ca fuller m writes that the gas was not harmful as the sensitive caring janet reno described it is it as far as i know tear gas especially in large concentrations is very dangerous even toxic for small children this makes the fbi s supposedconcern for the safety of the children seem rather hypocritical frank crary cu boulder
|
9,744 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re batf fbi murders almost everyone in waco today in article r g inneah clem handheld com jmd cube handheld com jim de arras writes in article c sou lnb news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes in article apr guinness idbsu edu betz gozer idbsu edu andrew betz writes in article c rynw iz news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes and i suppose the fbi also prevented them from coming out with their hands up while national tv cameras watch watch from where two miles away far enough away that whatever really happenned must be explained through the vengeful filter of a humiliated agency that said quote enough is enough please tell me what you think would have happened had the people come out with their hands up several weeks ago it didn t happen and who is responsible for it not happening certainly not the children koresh was calling the shots he was talking with his lawyer and the fbi since others were released safely there is no sane reason for keeping the children inside the compound scenario that is simplest and most plausible i do not generally believe in conspiracy theories that involve complicated and unlikely scenarios the fbi sent letters to martin luther king s wife insinuating that mlk was having an affair again please tell us exactly how much you trust our supposedly benevolent government more than someone who would not release children from the compound obviously you are an authority worshiper not at all are you a koresh worshiper i e more than david koresh vernon howell jesus christ i saw lengthy excerpts from an australian documentary made in that clearly showed that this was a cult give me a camera and time with you and i can present excerpts that show you to be a cult leader guarenteed thanks for my laugh of the day definitely a very silly supposition you should at least view the whole documentary before you claim it as a source i would if i could the news show that showed the lengthy excerpts also had interviews with the filmmaker who made the documentary who basically confirmed what was shown in the excerpts from the time he spent at the compound in i am not pleased with the batf handling of the affair i think they bungled it badly from the start but i don t think they are responsible for the fire which started in two different places two places eh you saw this or did the wonderful fbi tell you this i saw one place i believe that this was reported by local radio reporters on site a fire started in a three story tower at the same time as the two story window shown on the tv coverage the batf is by no means devoid of fault in the handling of this affair but to suggest that they may have intentionally started the fire is ludicrous i suspect that there were plenty of camerapeople willing to risk small arms fire to get some good footage these people were told to get the hell out of camera range why couldn t answer this one eh this is the most important question of all it is the root cause of all the other suspicion i thought about mentioning how reagan and the military treated the press in grenada and how that set the precedent but decided it wasn t worthy of discussion if the news reporter got shot you can bet his family would sue the government for letting him into the danger area the root cause of suspicion in my mind is why people wouldn t flee a building that had numerous exits during the minutes time it took to burn down or why didn t they flee hours earlier when the tear gas was first introduced i can find no rational explanation for their behavior
|
9,745 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re the cold war who really won in article apr linus mitre org glover tafs mitre org graham k glover writes if one reasons that the united states of america at one time represented and protected freedom individual liberty and personal responsibility and i do in fact think that this is true and that totalitarianism absolute government control and tyranny represents freedom s opposite which it does did the usa really win the cold war of course not the usa s only hope is for yelsen how ever you spell it to fail the referendum and have the hard liners take over again standard disclaimers always apply graham k glover unmutual jmd handheld com i m always rethinking that there s never been a day when i haven t rethought that but i can t do that by myself bill clinton april if i were an american as i am an englishman while a foreign troop was landed in my country i never would lay down my arms never never never william pitt earl of chatham nov
|
9,746 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re riddle me this in article r lp inn mojo eng umd edu chuck eng umd edu chuck harris wa uqv writes if so why was cs often employed against tunnels in vietnam cs tear gas was used in vietnam because it makes you wretch so hard that your stomach comes out thru your throat well not quite that bad but you can t really do much to defend yourself while you are blowing cookies i think the is bz gas not cs or cn bz gas exposure results in projectile vomiting loss of essentially all muscle control inability to concentrate or think rationally and fatal reactions in a significant fraction of the population for that reason its use is limited to military applications frank crary cu boulder
|
9,747 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re batf fbi murders almost everyone in waco today in article r vqinneb clem handheld com jmd cube handheld com jim de arras writes in article c spov lre news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes in article r qsrinnc clem handheld com jmd cube handheld com jim de arras writes in article c s ds j news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes i agree that they deserved a trial they had more than days to come out and get their trial they chose to keep the children with them and to stay inside they chose to stay inside even after they were tear gassed i do not find these actions rational even noriega was smart enough to give up and go for the trial he deserved mr roby you are a government sucking heartless bastard unworthy of comment but apparently true my opinion only of course so your opinion is truth i see humans died yesterday humans who would not have died if the fbi had not taken the actions they did that is the undeniable truth i cried for them nor would they have died if they had come out with their hands empty that is undeniable truth no it is not it is possible the fbi planned for this to happen and the gunfire heard was the fbi keeping the folks inside i m not proposing this as the way it went down but just to point out that it s not undeniable that if they walked out yesterday they would be alive today you can believe that if you wish it is undeniable however that people have left the compound unharmed and alive earier in the standoff and since their leader was preaching that they would have an apocalypse you can not say undeniably that there wouldn t have been a mass suicide if the fbi had simply stayed outside and waited another days my heart bleeds just as much as yours for the children who were never released given days of ample opportunities to do so my heart also bleeds for people so blinded by religious devotion to not have the common sense to leave the compound when tanks came up and started dropping in tear gas early in the morning my heart bleeds for no one you are the bleeding heart and i m sure beyond any possible doubt that you do not feel for those people as i do you can not say the heartless things you have said if you did i am the heartless bleeding heart you are not making sense you seem to have no concern that someone would keep children inside this compound when they had days to let them out that sounds pretty heartless to me i just heard on the news that some of the survivors regret they hadn t stayed in the inferno to prove their loyalty to koresh this makes me sad and sick you seem to say they got what they deserved i do not think this however if they did set the fire which started in more than one place and spread very quickly then they got what they wanted and put into motion themselves they got what they wanted what kind of creature are you that you can believe this have you ever heard of jonestown the sad thing is the people inside the compound were the authority worshipers and their only authority was koresh howell if these people were able to think for themselves there would likely be a lot more survivors today koresh preached a fiery apocalypse as early as last year i see the batf is going to be investigated by the justice dept and likely by arlen spectre and congress this is good they have bungled the affair from the start we agree on this now lets have your god the fbi investigated too by all means the fbi should be investigated too btw i thought the second ammendment was god jim jmd handheld com
|
9,748 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in c tenu f ns nodak edu green plains nodak edu bill green writes just to shed some light on the fire it was widely reported ap etc that there were several witnesses to bd folks starting the fires it has also been reported that the fires broke out in several places at once which rules out a bradley knocking over a lamp etc as the cause consider this the bds had more than one lamp the tanks made more than one hole in the building did anyone else notice on the video that it appeared that wherever there was smoke coming out of the building there was a tank nearby the fact that it appears that fires started in several places does not rule out anything also where are these several witnesses the way i heard it from the fbi spokesman on cnn the witnesses were all people driving the tanks one other point i m no fan of janet reno but i do like the way she had the balls to go ahead and take full responsibility seems like the waffle boy had problems figuring out just where he stood on the issue too bad nothing will happen to her or him the fbi and the media have done their job well dwayne jacques fontenot
|
9,749 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re some more about gun control in article apr mtu edu cescript mtu edu charles scripter writes you didn t even get the capitalization correct try reading usca on the constitution or get any other correct version of the constitution this is really stupid nitpicking capitalization rules in the late th century were quite different from today and what was posted matches current capitalization rules we also don t make s look like f and other such things done in the late seventeen hundreds in the original constitution militia arms etc were capitalized simply because they were nouns this is also done currently in german there is no special significance to these words simply because they are capitalized the capitalization denotes no special emphasis pete zakel phz cadence com or uunet cadence phz aries mar apr you are the pioneer type and hold most people in contempt you are quick tempered impatient and scornful of advice you are not very nice
|
9,750 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re batf fbi murders almost everyone in waco today in c rynw iz news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes and i suppose the fbi also prevented them from coming out with their hands up while national tv cameras watch would you have come out if you knew the only national tv cameras were well over a mile away and yet the agents with the guns were only a few yards away they had contact with a lawyer so i am inclined to believe they had an idea of what their situation actually was this also leads to the conspiracy theory that the lawyer had the batf pinned on rights violations if the bd s acted as witnesses hence the arson i doubt that one too but it is still quite clear that leaving a safe place to surrender is a rather stupid thing to do until that place is no longer safe do you disbelieve everything the fbi says as a matter of course given how they ve allowed no other views to be heard i ll reserve judgement until the trial but so far as the fbi is concerned their statements carry the same amount of weight as photons at rest the batf is by no means devoid of fault in the handling of this affair but to suggest that they may have intentionally started the fire is ludicrous ludicrous yes possible yes plausible get the jury if the fire were set by accident or by people outside the compound i would have expected far more cult members to flee the compound or at least come out shooting that s what gets me too it is likely the cult members were holed up in an enforced place inside the building with a decent arson attempt i suspect many of them could have been trapped in addition the introduction of cs gas for several hours would have rendered many of them immobile if not unconscious when their masks quit all the props are there but proving what scene was played is difficult the only certainty is that the fbi and batf have few witnesses against them dan sorenson dod z dan exnet iastate edu viking iastate edu isu only censors what i read not what i say don t blame them usenet post to exotic distant machines meet exciting unusual people and flame them
|
9,751 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re proper gun control what is proper gun cont in article c jgz j ssd intel com hays ssd intel com kirk hays writes i d like to point out that i was in error terminator began posting only six months before he purchased his first firearm according to private email from him i can t produce an archived posting of his earlier than january and he purchased his first firearm in march i guess it only seemed like years kirk hays nra life seventh generation i first read and consulted rec guns in the summer of i just purchased my first firearm in early march of this year not for lack of desire for a firearm you understand i could have purchased a rifle or shotgun but didn t want one case kim
|
9,752 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re cop kills teenager acns colostate edu holland cs colostate edu douglas craig holland writes suspended police officer arrested in revenge triple homicide providence r i ap a police officer afraid he would be fired for allegedly assaulting a teen ager walked into an auto body shop wher the youth worked said you re going to die and fatally shot him and two others police said a fourth youth was wounded a fifth escaped injury by hiding under a car suspended police officer robert sabetta of cranston was arrested at gunpoint over three hours after the shooting at wilson s auto enterprises in foster a rural town of about people in northwest rhode island doug holland i think i have updated info on this my understandingis that former officer cranston approached a teenager who was being questioned by another officer officer cranston struck teenager a in the head with a heavy police flashlight causing a significant though not life threatening there is no evidence that teenager a was doing anything threatening at the time teenager a was released on bail recognizance and filed a formal complaint against officer cranston the police chief suspended cranston pending an investigation into the use of excessive force the above is pretty clear but what seems to have happened is this the chief requested cranston s gun but cranston refused to turn it over until the chief went the cranston s home to get it sources said cranston had always wanted to be a cop and was very afraid of loosing his job because of the complaint against him a few days afterward cranston allegedly walked into wilson s garage where teenager a and friends were known to hang out and work on cars as a hobby cranston fatally shot teenager a as well as teenagers b and c teenager d was shot once in the shoulder chest teenager e was working under the car and was not noticed by officer cranston teenager d went to a home and summoned police who went to wilson s garage and found the corpses and one unscathed survivor a few days after his arrest officer cranston attemped to commit suicide in his cell case kim
|
9,753 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re we knew it would happen in talk politics guns jagst pitt edu josh a grossman writes well josh i agree with you to some respect less your spelling errors the gov mnt always must win even if they kill every man women and child by god they must win at all costs this happens over and over and over in this country lets make excuses get the worthless press to cover up everything let the officials take the heat for top management stupidity etc etc i am sick with greif for the entire well being of this nation and the constitution in claims to protect later josh later morty
|
9,754 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re boston gun buy back re more on gun buybacks the denver buy back trading guns for denver nuggets tickets was pretty much a bust very few guns were turned in the news tried to hype it but when the best they could do was including a loaded well you get the picture a side note the news also reported that the guns would be checked for whether or not they were stolen stolen guns will be returned to their owners they say does this have anything to do with the rally on the capital steps yesterday in support of the rkba even the rally made the pm news on channels ron miller
|
9,755 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re waco they did it masada re flaming wreckage i wrote my congressmen strongly worded letters demanding they dissolve the batf perhaps anger and grief can help spur a letter writing campaign ron miller
|
9,756 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re batf fbi murders almost everyone in waco today in article r ld bp transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com c d tavares writes in article c t g il news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes in article r rad rl transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com c d tavares writes in article c s ds j news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes the original question was about who started the fire and whether the madmen were inside or outside the compound to which i replied on the possible sanity level of those inside and outside was that your argument well you didn t make it very well you started from the questionable premise that the fire was necessarily an act of insanity rather than an act of negligence or an accident recall one survivor claims that the fire started when a tank knocked over a kerosene lamp kind of makes arguments regarding relative sanity somewhat moot no and another survivor claims he heard someone shouting the fire s started odd terminology that s what one says when you know a fire is planned not when one occurs by accident we will have to wait and see what the evidence shows assuming one is willing to believe any evidence offered by the distrustful ones according to an australian documentary made in the year before the stand off began koresh and his followers all believed he was christ koresh had sex with children and women married to other men in the compound these were the perfect children resulting from the great seed of his magnified horn ex members describe him in ways not dissimilar to the way jim jones has been described point noted have you submitted your faith and sex life for batf clearance better hurry i believe the deadline was april i paid my taxes there was no reference to sex or religion on the form the comments above and below were meant to address who might be unstable enough to keep children in a building with tear gas or start a fire nice evasive maneuver mr chekov but they re still on our tail let me ask it more plainly which of the above complaints about david koresh s religious or sexual proclivities justified an armed raid by the bureau of alcohol tobacco and firearms neither again i was merely addressing the sanity level of the players i agree that the batf handled the affair badly from day one btw i heard on the news today that the affadavit behind the no knock warrant was unsealed today grenade launcher was the only thing on the list that i found unusual two of the nine who escaped the compound said the fire was deliberately set by cult members so when they talk to the news reporters directly and relate the same details will you believe them believe them i won t even recognize them and neither will anyone else who doesn t know them personally do you believe they would put impostors before the national tv cameras it s not entirely far fetched nobody outside the compound would know everybody inside the compound don t forget the batf admits having agents inside the compound in any case ambitious news reporters could use the documentary filmed by an australian in on the compound grounds to help identify survivors i for one will check their stories for consistency with what i learned in a long news story about that documentary at this point we are getting conflicting reports from the survivors best wait til more light is shed upon them of course this is no good if you believe in eternal darkness i m simply being the devil s advocate there s reasonable doubt by the boatload standing in the way of anybody totally swallowing the official government story on waco certainly there is some room for doubt i certainly reserve the right to change my opinions when new evidence warrants such a change if i were conspiratorially minded however i would never be able to change my mind because any evidence i disliked would have to be a lie fabricated by the distrustful ones
|
9,757 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article r j l t transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com c d tavares writes in article apr mcs kent edu mhamilto nimitz mcs kent edu the lawnmowerman writes oh then i guess that shooting those kind of babies is all right you sick bastard cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet why thanks for your reply to my post by the way i never never ever said that it was right to shoot those kind of babies however it was the branch davidian people in there that insisted on staying there with their savior yeah right budy boy because he had brain washed them into believing that what ever he says is the truth even if means that they are to give up their lives for his cause therefore it is davids fault and not the atf s who gave them to days to get out this was days to many for me and for many of the rest of the u s i am however sad to hear of the death of any child unlike the sick bastard i supposedly am matthew r hamilton mhamilto mcs kent edu a k a cs physics major h ksuvxb kent edu the lawnmowerman kent state university h ksuvxb kent edu look here for future advice quotes sayings jibberish philosohy
|
9,758 |
talk.politics.guns
|
waco clinton press conference part here is a press release from the white house president clinton s remarks on waco with q a to national desk contact white house office of the press secretary washington april following are remarks by president clinton in a question and answer session with the press p m edt the president on february the th four federal agents were killed in the line of duty trying to enforce the law against the branch davidian compound which had illegally stockpiled weaponry and ammunition and placed innocent children at risk because the batf operation had failed to meet its objective a day standoff ensued the federal bureau of investigation then made every reasonable effort to bring this perilous situation to an end without bloodshed and further loss of life the bureau s efforts were ultimately unavailing because the individual with whom they were dealing david koresh was dangerous irrational and probably insane he engaged in numerous activities which violated both federal law and common standards of decency he was moreover responsible for the deaths and injuries which occurred during the action against the compound in february given his inclination towards violence and in an effort to protect his young hostages no provocative actions were taken for more than seven weeks by federal agents against the compound this weekend i was briefed by attorney general reno on an operation prepared by the fbi designed to increase pressure on koresh and persuade those in the compound to surrender peacefully the plan included a decision to withhold the use of ammunition even in the face of fire and instead to use tear gas that would not cause permanent harm to health but would it was hoped force the people in the compound to come outside and to surrender i was informed of the plan to end the siege i discussed it with attorney general reno i asked the questions i thought it was appropriate for me to ask i then told her to do what she thought was right and i take full responsibility for the implementation of the decision yesterday s action ended in a horrible human tragedy mr koresh s response to the demands for his surrender by federal agents was to destroy himself and murder the children who were his captives as well as all the other people who were there who did not survive he killed those he controlled and he bears ultimate responsibility for the carnage that ensued now we must review the past with an eye towards the future i have directed the united stated departments of justice and treasury to undertake a vigorous and thorough investigation to uncover what happened and why and whether anything could have been dne differently i have told the departments to involve independent professional law enforcement officials in the investigation i expect to receive analysis and answers in whatever time is required to complete the review finally i have directed the departments to cooperate fully with all congressional inquiries so that we can continue to be fully accountable to the american people i want to express my appreciation to the attorney general to the justice department and to the federal agents on the front lines who did the best job they could under deeply difficult circumstances again i want to say as i did yesterday i am very sorry for the loss of life which occurred at the beginning and at the end of this tragedy in waco i hope very much that others who will be tempted to join cults and to become involved with people like david koresh will be deterred by the horrible scenes they have seen over the last seven weeks and i hope very much that the difficult situations which federal agents confronted there and which they will be doubtless required to confront in other contexts in the future will be somewhat better handled and better understood because of what has been learned now q mr president can you first of all tell us why after days you decided q mr president can you describe for us what it is that janet reno outlined to you in your minute phone conversation with the president i can t hear you both if one will go first and then the other q sorry can you describe what janet reno q mr president the president i ll answer both your questions but i can t do it at once q can you describe what she told you on sunday about the nature of the operation and how much detail you knew about it the president yes i was told by the attorney general that the fbi strongly felt that the time had come to take another step in trying to dislodge the people in the compound and she described generally what the operation would be that they wanted to go in and use tear gas which had been tested not to cause permanent damage to adults or to children but which would make it very difficult for people to stay inside the building and it was hoped that the tear gas would permit them to come outside i was further told that under no circumstances would our people fire any shots at them even if fired upon they were going to shoot the tear gas from armored vehicles which would protect them and there would be no exchange of fire in fact as you know an awful lot of shots were fired by the cult members at the federal officials there were no shots coming back from the government side i asked a number of questions the first question i asked is why now we have waited seven weeks why now the reasons i was given were the following number one that there was a limit to how long the federal authorities could maintain with their limited resources the quality and intensity of coverage by experts there they might be needed in other parts of the country number two that the people who had reviewed this had never seen a case quite like this one before and they were convinced that no progress had been made recently and no progress was going to be made through the normal means of getting koresh and the other cult members to come out number three that the danger of their doing something to themselves or to others was likely to increase not decrease with the passage of time and number four that they had reason to believe that the children who were still inside the compound were being abused significantly as well as being forced to live in unsanitary and unsafe conditions so for those reasons they wanted to move at that time the second question i asked the attorney general is whether they had given consideration to all of the things that could go wrong and evaluated them against what might happen that was good she said that the fbi personnel on the scene and those working with them were convinced that the chances of bad things happening would only increase with the passage of time the third question i asked was has the military been consulted as soon as the initial tragedy came to light in waco that s the first thing i asked to be done because it was obvious that this was not a typical law enforcement situation military people were then brought in helped to analyze the situation and some of the problems that were presented by it and so i asked if the military had been consulted the attorney general said that they had and that they were in basic agreement that there was only one minor tactical difference of opinion between the fbi and the military something that both sides thought was not of overwhelming significance having asked those questions and gotten those answers i said that if she thought it was the right thing to do that she should proceed and that i would support it and i stand by that today q mr president the president wait go ahead q can you address the widespread perception reported widely television radio and newspapers that you were trying somehow to distance yourself from this disaster the president no i m bewildered by it the only reason i made no public statement yesterday let me say the only reason i made no public statement yesterday is that i had nothing to add to what was being said and i literally did not know until rather late in the day whether anybody was still alive other than those who had been actually seen and taken to the hospital or taken into custody it was purely and simply a question of waiting for events to unfold there was i have i can t account for why people speculated one way or the other but i talked to the attorney general on the day before the action took place i talked to her yesterday i called her again late last night after she appeared on the larry king show and i talked to her again this morning a president it is not possible for a president to distance himself from things that happen when the federal government is in control i will say this however i was frankly surprised would be a mild word to say that anyone that would suggest that the attorney general should resign because some religious fanatics murdered themselves applause i regret what happened but it is not possible in this life to control the behavior of others in every circumstance these people killed four federal officials in the line of duty they were heavily armed they fired on federal officials yesterday repeatedly and they were never fired back on we did everything we could to avoid the loss of life they made the decision to immolate themselves and i regret it terribly and i feel awful about the children but in the end the last comment i had from janet reno is when and i talked to her on sunday i said now i want you to tell me once more why you believe not why they believe why you believe we should move now rather than wait some more and she said it s because of the children they have evidence that those children are still being abused and that they re in increasingly unsafe conditions and that they don t think it will get any easier with time with the passage of time i have to take their word for that so that is where i think things stand q can we assume then that you don t think this was mishandled in view of the outcome that you didn t run out of patience and if you had it to do over again would you really decide that way the president no well i think what you can assume is just exactly what i announced today this is a the fbi has done a lot of things right for this country over a long period of time this is the same fbi that found the people that bombed the world trade center in lickety split record time we want an inquiry to analyze the steps along the way is there something else we should have known is there some other question they should have asked is there some other question i should have asked can i say for sure that no one that we could have done nothing else to make the outcome come different i don t know that that s why i want the inquiry and that s why i would like to make sure that we have some independent law enforcement people not political people but totally non political outside experts who can bring to bear the best evidence we have there is unfortunately a rise in this sort of fanaticism all across the world and we may have to confront it again and i want to know whether there is anything we can do particularly when there are children involved but i do think it is important to recognize that the wrong doers in this case were the people who killed others and then killed themselves q mr president were there any other options presented to you for resolving this situation at any point from february th until yesterday the president well yes i got regular reports all along the way there were lots of other options pursued if you go back you all covered it very well the fbi you did a very good job of it i mean the fbi and the other authorities there pursued any number of other options all along the way and a lot of them early on seemed to be working some of the children got out some of the other people left there was a at one point there seemed to be some lines of communication opening up between koresh and the authorities and then he would say things and not do them and things just began to spin downward whether there were other in terms of what happened yesterday the conversation i had with the attorney general did not involve other options except whether we should take more time with the present strategy we were pursuing because they said they wanted to do this because they thought this was the best way to get people out of the compound quickly before they could kill themselves that s what they thought q did the government know that the children did not have gas masks q congressional hearings once the situation are you in agreement with that the president that s up to the congress they can do whatever they want but i think it s very important that the treasury and justice departments launch this investigation and bring in some outside experts and as i said in my statement if any congressional committees want to look into it we will fully cooperate there is nothing to hide here this was probably the most well covered operation of its kind in the history of the country more more
|
9,759 |
talk.politics.guns
|
waco clinton press conference part here is a press release from the white house president clinton s remarks on waco with q a to national desk contact white house office of the press secretary washington april u s newswire following are remarks by president clinton in a question and answer session with the press part of go ahead sarah q there are two questions i want to ask you the first is i think that they knew very well that the children did not have gas masks while the adults did so the children had no chance because this gas was very she said it was not lethal but it was very dangerous to the children and they could not have survived without gas masks and on february th let s go back didn t those people have a right to practice their religion the president they were not just practicing their religion they were the treasury department believed that they had violated federal laws any number of them q what federal laws the president let me go back and answer i can t answer the question about the gas masks except to tell you that the whole purpose of using the tear gas was that it had been tested they were convinced that it wouldn t kill either a child or an adult but it would force anybody that breathed it to run outside and one of the things that i ve heard i don t want to get into the details of this because i don t know but one of the things that they were speculating about today was that the wind was blowing so fast that the windows might have been opened and some of the gas might have escaped and that may be why it didn t have the desired effect they also knew sarah that there was an underground compound a bus buried underground where the children could be sent and they were i think they were hoping very much that if the children were not released immediately outside that the humane thing would be done and that the children would be sent someplace where they could be protected in terms of the gas masks themselves i learned yesterday i did not ask this fact question before that the gas was supposed to stay active in the compound longer than the gas masks themselves were to work so that it was thought that even if they all had gas masks that eventually the gas would force them out in a nonviolent nonshooting circumstance ms myers last question q mr president why are you still saying that q could you tell us whether or not you ever asked janet reno about the possibility of a mass suicide and when you learned about the actual fire and explosion what went through your mind during those horrendous moments the president what i asked janet reno is if they had considered all the worse things that could happen and she said and of course the whole issue of suicide had been raised in the public he had that had been debated anyway and she said that the people who were most knowledgeable about these kinds of issues concluded that there was no greater risk of that now than there would be tomorrow or the next day or the day after that or at anytime in the future that was the judgment they made whether they were right or wrong of course we will never know what happened when i saw the fire when i saw the building burning i was sick i felt terrible and my immediate concern was whether the children had gotten out and whether they were escaping or whether they were inside trying to burn themselves up that s the first thing i wanted to know thank you q mr president why are you still saying it was a janet reno decision isn t it in the end your decision the president well what i m saying is that i didn t have a four or five hour detailed briefing from the fbi i didn t go over every strategic part of it it is a decision for which i take responsibility i m the president of the united states and i signed off on the general decision and giving her the authority to make the last call when i talked to her on sunday some time had elapsed she might have made a decision to change her mind i said if you decide to go forward with this tomorrow i will support you and i do support her she is not ultimately responsible to the american people i am but i think she has conducted her duties in an appropriate fashion and she has dealt with this situation i think as well as she could have thank you applause
|
9,760 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re fbi director s statement on waco standoff feustel netcom com david feustel writes we have no evidence that batf fbi would not have started shooting when and if people had started coming out of the burning building oh how about the press if the batf fbi were going to shoot people leaving a burning building don t you think they would get rid of the press first tim smith
|
9,761 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re militia incredibly long in article c n vy ej ulowell ulowell edu jrutledg cs ulowell edu john lawrence rutledge writes in article qna m nq transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com c d tavares writes in article c l n ll ulowell ulowell edu jrutledg cs ulowell edu john lawrence rutledge writes but do you knew how much organization is required to training a large group of poeple twice a year just to try to get the same people every year provide a basic training to new people so they can be integrated into the force and find a suitable location it requires a continually standing committee of organizers again my response is so what is mr rutledge arguing that since the local and federal governments have abandoned their charter to support such activity and passed laws prohibiting private organizations from doing so that they have eliminated the basis for the rkba on the contrary to anyone who understands the game they have strengthened it no i originally argued that the second amendment was a little bit and an anachronism these prohibiting laws are examples why the are an anachronism after all laws in made by representatives of the people these representatives of the people have already decided that the second amendment does not apply or is too broad in some cases since these representatives feel an unconditional interpretation is not wanted then it is probable that they majority of the people feel the same way if this is so it is an example of the people using their power of government if this is not how the people feel the people should stand up and state their wishes wrong neglecting that the government and media have bullshitted the people almost nonstop on this issue constitutional limitations are there to prevent a tyrrany of the majority for example a majority could vote that given ethnics have no rights are not people etc and it would fly using the logic above when government feels the constitution is not right for the times there is a procedure called an amendment to the constitution this is deliberately difficult and cumbersome to prevent abuse of those who decide to ignore the people or impose unjust policies of a majority on a minority a lynch mob is a majority remember outvoting the hangee what the government is doing are violations end runs around the limitations on the government probably because they know that the people would be very hard to convince that a good intention is behind tampering with the bill of rights government propeganda on guns has been very strong and persistant but not that strong and it just shows how gullible the people have become to i am from the government and am here to help you sort of line we have been lied to fed half truths rigged stats while the government knows their control laws have no effect on crime they want a government monopoly on force pure and simple do you really want the government to be able to override constitutional limitations by a simple vote of a bunch of elitists congresscritters i sure don t the founding fathers sure as hell didn t either mox nix mr rutledge you are the only one here claiming that the rkba is dependent on the existence of a top flight well regulated militia why this is a false assumption has already been posted a number of times no i simple stated that the people have a right to join a well organized militia and i have also stated that a militia that meets once or twice a year is clearly well organized and this state of readiness that i have claimed the people have a right to is the same state of readiness expected of the militia as stated by hamilton you better read the senate subcommitte on the constitution regarding the second amendment and a linguist s analisys of the second itself in the meanwhile show us some stuff to back up your assertions and yes i have the above mentioned documents and more online pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc pat myrto seattle wa if all else fails try uunet pilchuck rwing pat wisdom only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and i am not sure about the former albert einstien
|
9,762 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re batf fbi murders almost everyone in waco today in article r vo geraldo cc utexas edu mikey ccwf cc utexas edu strider writes roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes mikey ccwf cc utexas edu strider writes according to an australian documentary made in the year before the stand off began koresh and his followers all believed he was christ koresh had sex with children and women married to other men in the compound these were the perfect children resulting from the great seed of his magnified horn ex members describe him in ways not dissimilar to the way jim jones has been described i don t know how accurate the documentary was the documentary interviewed koresh and current and ex members the documentary disucussed koresh s christ status inside the cult cult brain washing techniques and unusual sex practices the leader gets any he wants and tells others when they can or can t i will let others decide if using religious authority to have sex with a minor is technically child abuse or not however koresh was never convicted of any crimes against children nor was the batf after him for child abuse their purview in this case is strictly in firearms violations all true so this information is irrelevant to the discussion well if a fire was deliberately set by members of the cult then the history and background of the cult is very relevant the history and backgournd of the jones cult was very important in understanding what happened at jonestown not taking into account the history and background of koresh s cult may also help explain why the fbi and batf so badly predicted the reponses they would get from inside the compund nearly every step of the way in this badly handled affair fbi agents have to pass rigorous psychological examinations and background checks plus those in charge will undoubtedly have to explain their decisions in great detail to congress why would the fbi want to fulfill koresh s own prophecy those in charge will undoubtedly have to explain something but whether their answers even remotely resembles the truth we may never know and who is left alive to care whether the prophecy is fulfilled it only holds meaning for the nine who survived it is likely that there will be at least two investigations jd and congress at this point correction the fbi said that two of the cult members said this so far no one else has been able to talk to them so when they talk to the news reporters directly and relate the same details will you believe them if they confirm the story i probably will definitely not until then however interesting and conflicting details are starting to come out i have reverted back to wait mode to find out whether the fire was intentional or accidental and how it started and why it spread so fast mike ruff
|
9,763 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re impeach clinton reno on apr gmt glenn r stone gs prism gatech edu wrote fact it is a federal felony to infringe civil rights under color of law where death is involved this offense carries a penalty of life in prison title and or seem to apply is conspiracy two or more persons against rights of citizens is deprivation of rights under color of law both call for up to life in prison if death occurs reno bentsen and clinton are probably all principals to the crime as they are responsible for authorized actions on the part of their subordinates conclusion we have no choice if we are an honest people but to impeach mr clinton and remove reno from office you forgot one detail they should be turned over to the texas authorities for trial as the crime was committed there article section charles scripter cescript phy mtu edu dept of physics michigan tech houghton mi when all government in little as in great things shall be drawn to washington as the centre of all power it will render powerless the checks provided of one government on another and will become as venal and oppressive as the government from which we separated thomas jefferson
|
9,764 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re we knew it would happen god forgive me for being an american who pays taxes to a government that commits atrocities like the waco massacre of dave feustel n myi feustel netcom com i m beginning to look forward to reaching the allocation of taxes to pay for the interest on the national debt at that point the federal government will be will go out of business for lack of funds
|
9,765 |
talk.politics.guns
|
batf acronym haven t seen this one on here yet so here it goes b arely a dequate t otally f ed i don t know about adequate but it fits the acronym andrew diederich diederic spot colorado edu these opinions are only mine on alternate tuesdays
|
9,766 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re rewording the second amendment ideas dfo vttoulu tko vtt fi foxvog douglas writes you believe that individuals should have the right to own weapons of mass destruction i find it hard to believe that you would support a neighbor s right to keep nuclear weapons biological weapons and nerve gas on his her property that really depends upon where you draw the line while defining these weapons and also on if you intend the law to be reflective of modern practice five months or five centuries down the road i ll give you a little hint see that manure pile in the farmer s field down the road in the usa that is a weapon of mass destruction biological in nature because if it gets washed into an open well it will contaminate the aquifers that supply thousands of cities with drinking water so where do you draw the line in the usa the epa has ruled that a pile of scrap iron is illegal care to draw a thinner line this time dan sorenson dod z dan exnet iastate edu viking iastate edu isu only censors what i read not what i say don t blame them usenet post to exotic distant machines meet exciting unusual people and flame them
|
9,767 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re raid justification was blast them next time on wed apr gmt peter cash cash convex com wrote i just got through listening to the o clock news on channel here in dallas they trotted out a list of justifications produced by the atf after months of investigation for their raid cnn just claimed he bought semi automatic assault rifles and they say koresh wasn t god like he managed to buy or build a collection of fully automatic semi automatic rifles quite a feat i would say they re still making charges of sexual abuse and such or course nobody seems to have noticed that the treasury department has nothing to do with sex crimes or maybe the feds have recently instituted a tax on sex crimes yeah that s why the batf was there looking for unregistered guns this is my weapon this is my gun this is for fighting this is for i couldn t believe the junk on this list for example the bds were accused of stockpiling a bunch of mm and ammunition that can be used in m and m assault rifles imagine that they had ammunition i also heard that they re claiming to be cautious because of koresh s heated ammunition stockpile i seem to recall that smokeless powder tends to decompose at even moderate temperatures i would be rather surprised after a fire of that nature if any of his stockpile is unexploded or unburned they also had aluminum dust yeah it s a component of thermite but so far i haven t heard that it s illegal to take a grinder to the aluminum lawn furniture i seem to recall that aluminum powder is a common component of fireworks the folks on rec pyro could probably tell you the only thing on the list that could conceivably have been illegal was an m grenade launcher anybody know about this i think anything is legal if you have the proper license if he had a curios and relics permit i believe he could legally own handgrenades to go with his launcher charles scripter cescript phy mtu edu dept of physics michigan tech houghton mi when all government in little as in great things shall be drawn to washington as the centre of all power it will render powerless the checks provided of one government on another and will become as venal and oppressive as the government from which we separated thomas jefferson
|
9,768 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re the cold war who really won if one reasons that the united states of america at one time represented and protected freedom individual liberty and personal responsibility and i do in fact think that this is true and that totalitarianism absolute government control and tyranny represents freedom s opposite which it does did the usa really win the cold war standard disclaimers always apply graham k glover the cold war has not ended the only thing that has happened is that the two sides have exchanged roles the usa has a higher imprisonment rate per population than any country in europe by a factor of or so in california it is over per population the prison population in california is now over a quadrupling since most of these inmates were convicted under the drug prohibition laws police now confiscate property without trial under a good faith probable cause standard in the name of depriving the horrible ghastly drug dealers of their ill gotten gains conduct an opinion poll and a majority will answer yes if you ask them whether civil liberties and due process should be diluted in order to send our young people the message that we are serious about winning the war on drugs i don t know whether anyone has measured such a figure among gun owners but i would expect the same result they certainly seem to vote that way according to jack herer s book the emperor wears no clothes over twelve million years of prison time have been served under the marijuana prohibition laws by people who were minding their own business and causing no harm to others and less harm to themselves than users of tobacco with confirmed kills year under the war on drugs campaign of zero tolerance due process protections have eroded and mandatory sentences of ten years without parole have proliferated by and large gun owners have voted for the politicians who favor such measures and now all the precedents not only legal but political my fellow americans we must send our young people the message that we are serious about winning the war on murder are going to be applied to the oncoming wave of gun prohibition laws gun owners are about to get a taste of the medicine they voted for believing it would be used only on those with different tastes in recreational drugs what goes around comes around alan t furman don t blame me i voted libertarian atfurman cup portal com for more information
|
9,769 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re my gun is like my american express card in article apr csd newshost stanford edu andy sail stanford edu andy freeman says in article u uicvm uic edu jason kratz u uicvm uic edu the point that i forgot to bring up here and this has nothing to do with g bein a gang member or not is that it is illegal to carry a concealed weapon in s thi area or in the state of illinois for that matter right it nas nothing to do with whther or not the person is was a gang member but that s what kratz inferred wrong there are people who can legally carry concealed in il and there are circumstances under which many people can carry concealed is accuracy really too much to expect andy no it s not if you would have read my other post i was accurate here s what i said material from another post the other point that i would like to make because i know it s true looked this one up in the illinois this is for you andy statutes before is that it is illegal to carry a concealed weapon in illinois also for you andy and then i went on to say there is no such thing as a ccw for us ordinary folk here end of quoted material of course i forgot to mention who us ordinary folk are so just for andy i m going to go to the library tomorrow and photocopy the part of the illinois statutes with this information and post it ordinary citizens can not get a license to carry a concealed weapon there are very few people who can i even asked my lawyer friend about this and he told me that only certain people can get licenses for concealed carry he couldn t remember which people but he knew for sure that regular citizens couldn t get that type of license he told me to go check at the library for the statutes which i did i ll post that info tomorrow night until then jason
|
9,770 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re the right to keep and bear arms was re who s next mikey ccwf cc utexas edu strider writes st pip cc brandeis edu writes just because someting was good once does not mean it will be forever yes gone are the days when you can leave your house unlocked at night well it couldn t last forever for the record it wasn t until i came to college excluding the times i went to omaha or council bluffs for something that i ever removed the keys from the ignition of my car come to think of it it was only after i moved to ames ia pop k that i ever took to locking my doors at night i ve discovered that k year isn t worth living in fear all day i might just move back to the farm this weekend is veishea you know when isu students riot for no apparent reason this year we ve the farm aid concert to add to the festivities anybody bet me there s another riot remember iowa law has three guys talking loud defined as a riot stay tuned for an on the scene report this weekend dan sorenson dod z dan exnet iastate edu viking iastate edu isu only censors what i read not what i say don t blame them usenet post to exotic distant machines meet exciting unusual people and flame them
|
9,771 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re my gun is like my american express card in article qvff inn p clem handheld com jmd cube handheld com jim de arras says in article u uicvm uic edu jason kratz it is kind of funny though how you were the only one who picked up the part about my sister being a social worker and keeping me up to date on the gang thing everyone else seemed to just skim by that part jason i guess that just means everyone else was mistaken jim jmd handheld com actually not jim i just said that everyone else seemed to have skimmed by that part and not mentioned it you can get whatever meaning you want from it jason
|
9,772 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re blast them next time oldham ces cwru edu daniel oldham writes what happened in waco is not the fault of the batf if they would of had the proper equipment and personal then they could of captured the compound on the initial assault and none of this would of happened seal team six should have handled it delta force the batf had more than enough equipment and men they did not have good intel but they did have poor planning they fucked up even in just the most basic military sense they fucked up excuses do not justify body counts the batf needs more people better weapons and more armored transports when they meet hostile fire they should be able to use more force instead of retreating to a stand off if you are going to do a job then do it right the batf is there to protect us and they must have the proper equipment and people to do the job and your excuses fall upon deaf ears when the same batf has shown shitty leadership despite more people better weapons and exclusive use of armor against their targets batf is nothing more than a private army of the government do the agents swear an oath as i did to uphold the constitution you know that document that stipulates the highest law of the land if they do they should be up for charges in a court of law remember the law that s the whole reason for any of this with the wod and the increased crime in the streets the batf is needed more now then ever if they blast away a few good fokes then that is the price we all have to pay for law and order in this country look at all the good people that died in wars to protect this great country of ours yeah i ve been related to many of them this is flame bait right i m not paying your price mind if i sight in my guns on your body think of it as the price you have to pay that we may all live without fear of my making a stray shot it s fine and dandy to revel in the other guy being the target and your supposed safety in the military we called this chicken shit leadership from the rear the war on drugs despite being a catchy term for nothing more than a continuation of policy since before this century seems to have gotten you convinced that my rights aren t worth your good vibes mind if i cut your net access as well as access to any and all forms of expression see you make me nervous what with you being able to influence so many i m sure you can see how this is the price we have to pay for freedom and liberty in this country as well as a fair and unbiased judiciary with the arms build up in waco they needed to hit that compound with mega fire power they could of gone in there blasting and killed a few women and kids but it would of been better then letting them all burn to death days later mind if we include you in the body count i m sure we could all file it under civic improvement and your life wouldn t have been sacrificed in vain if you like you can will your estate to defecit reduction too now when you learn how the law protects or doesn t protect everybody equally and how our collective boot may one day be on your collective throat perhaps at that time you will mature enough to realize just what you re talking about and how serious this is next time include a smiley while i hesitate to think that you could have meant this seriously it deserved a small flame anyway dan sorenson dod z dan exnet iastate edu viking iastate edu isu only censors what i read not what i say don t blame them usenet post to exotic distant machines meet exciting unusual people and flame them
|
9,773 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re text of white house announcement and q as on clipper chip encryption though i agree this is not the place to discuss guns i note in passing that a number of gun apologists seem to have ignored the words well regulated in their distorted interpretations of the second amendment david david sternlight great care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of our information errors and omissions excepted
|
9,774 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re rewording the second amendment ideas in article r eu t transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com c d tavares writes in article apr ousrvr oulu fi dfo vttoulu tko vtt fi foxvog douglas writes in article qv v j transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com c d tavares writes in article c n gi f f ulowell ulowell edu jrutledg cs ulowell edu john lawrence rutledge writes the massive destructive power of many modern weapons makes the cost of an accidental or crimial usage of these weapons to great the weapons of mass destruction need to be in the control of the government only individual access would result in the needless deaths of millions this makes the right of the people to keep and bear many modern weapons non existant thanks for stating where you re coming from needless to say i disagree on every count you believe that individuals should have the right to own weapons of mass destruction i find it hard to believe that you would support a neighbor s right to keep nuclear weapons biological weapons and nerve gas on his her property if we cannot even agree on keeping weapons of mass destruction out of the hands of individuals can there be any hope for us i don t sign any blank checks of course the term must be rigidly defined in any bill when doug foxvog says weapons of mass destruction he means cbw and nukes when sarah brady says weapons of mass destruction she means street sweeper shotguns and semi automatic sks rifles i doubt she uses this term for that you are using a quote allegedly from her can you back it up when john lawrence rutledge says weapons of mass destruction and then immediately follows it with the us has thousands of people killed each year by handguns this number can easily be reduced by putting reasonable restrictions on them what does rutledge mean by the term i read the article as presenting first an argument about weapons of mass destruction as commonly understood and then switching to other topics the first point evidently was to show that not all weapons should be allowed and then the later analysis was given this understanding to consider another class cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet doug foxvog douglas foxvog vtt fi
|
9,775 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re rewording the second amendment ideas in article viking ponderous cc iastate edu viking iastate edu dan sorenson writes dfo vttoulu tko vtt fi foxvog douglas writes you believe that individuals should have the right to own weapons of mass destruction i find it hard to believe that you would support a neighbor s right to keep nuclear weapons biological weapons and nerve gas on his her property that really depends upon where you draw the line while defining these weapons this means you would support a ban if it were narrow enough good and also on if you intend the law to be reflective of modern practice five months or five centuries down the road i would hope so let s define a nuclear weapon as an explosive weapon whose majority of energy comes from fission and or fusion of atomic nuclei let s define a biological weapon as live organisms or viruses in such state quantity and with such a vector that they could cause death or serious disease further defined to a significant number of people if released in a city similarly populated area resevoir or cropland nerve gas and mustard gas are well defined other poisonous gasses should be individually banned only if it can be shown that there is no use not related to weaponry licenses should be available for research purposes on such chemicals i am not a lawyer but these ideas could certainly be a basis for definitions i ll give you a little hint see that manure pile in the farmer s field down the road in the usa that is a weapon of mass destruction nope it is not considered a weapon biological in nature because if it gets washed into an open well it will contaminate the aquifers that supply thousands of cities with drinking water so where do you draw the line in the usa the epa has ruled that a pile of scrap iron is illegal care to draw a thinner line this time it is not defined as a weapon of mass destruction many things are banned for other reasons dan sorenson dod z dan exnet iastate edu viking iastate edu isu only censors what i read not what i say don t blame them doug foxvog douglas foxvog vtt fi
|
9,776 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re will cs burn or explode rcanders nyx cs du edu mr nice guy writes the fbi released large amounts of cs tear gas into the compound in waco cs tear gas is a fine power is cs inflammable grain dust suspended in air can form an explosive mixture will cs suspended in air form an explosive mix could large quantities of cs have fueled the rapid spread of fire in the compound no chance if that cs ignited at all it would have been quite similar to a grain bin explosion explosion i note the entire compound would have been leveled not merely burned as there was no explosion there was no cs ignition causing the fire note at five miles a decent grain elevator explosion will knock you on your butt and your ears will ring for days i speak from experience here dan sorenson dod z dan exnet iastate edu viking iastate edu isu only censors what i read not what i say don t blame them usenet post to exotic distant machines meet exciting unusual people and flame them
|
9,777 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re change of name how we survived ww we mailed postings about things we didn t know any thing about to only the wrong places i m not trying to censor this or any newsgroup i m just trying to give some hints about other newsgroups doesn t this belong to alt conspiracy note my posting was in reply to those about fbi torching the plasce after filling it with napalm and arrested people dissapering we all know what a quisling is right obviously we don t vidkun quisling is known to be a traitor in norway not a censor if i have betrayed my country norway bescause i implied that som of you jumped to conclusions sound a little paranoid then i think there is a lot of quislings in norway about waco it looks to me as the batf and fbi can t handle situations like this the way it went reminds me of stun bomb beeing dropped on a house in la from a helicopter whole block went up in flames died it doesn t have to be a conspiracy maybe they just screwed up this is not a signature it s merely a computergenerated text to waste bandwith and to bring down the evil internet thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio no
|
9,778 |
talk.politics.guns
|
american horror file call for help today s atrocity in waco has finally impelled me to start working on something i ve been thinking about for some time over the last few years i have heard of one case after another of government running completely amok unfortunately most people are oblivious of the government s crimes and still think of it as their protector so i intend to put together what i call the american horror file a compilation of cases where the american government has run roughshod over the rights of its citizens over the last few years focusing especially on deaths and injuries resulting from no knock warrants and financial ruin to innocents resulting from civil forfeiture laws but including any other cases for which i can find decent documentation i hope to make people blood boiling artery bursting red hot enraged at their government the end result will probably be a book in electronic form ascii text and postscript files detailing the government s crimes of recent years this book will be distributed at cost and i will encourage people to post copies to bbs s send copies on disk to friends and print out copies and give them to neighbors this is a call for your help any information that you can send me on how government is running amok will be greatly appreciated i would prefer information that is well documented with sources given about specific instances of governmental abuses i also welcome anyone who wants to join me in collecting and researching information for this project kevin s van horn is your religion batf approved vanhorn bert cs byu edu
|
9,779 |
talk.politics.guns
|
news says batf indictment warrant unsealed something about how koresh had threatened to cause local problems with all these wepaons he had and was alleged to have someone else will post more details soon i m sure other news sniper injures outside mca buildling in l a man arrested suspect was disgruntled employee of universal studios which is a division of m c a question what will californians do with all those guns after the reginald denny trial case kim kim husc harvard edu
|
9,780 |
talk.politics.guns
|
batf s prime directive bully them bludgeon them bury them dave feustel n myi feustel netcom com i m beginning to look forward to reaching the allocation of taxes to pay for the interest on the national debt at that point the federal government will be will go out of business for lack of funds
|
9,781 |
talk.politics.guns
|
janet reno and responsibility i see no difference between janet reno s claim of responsibility for the waco massacre and the ira s claims of responsibility for various acts of terrorism against british citizens dave feustel n myi feustel netcom com i m beginning to look forward to reaching the allocation of taxes to pay for the interest on the national debt at that point the federal government will be will go out of business for lack of funds
|
9,782 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re my gun is like my american express card i don t remember the figures exactly but there were about deaths in texas in that was caused by guns this is more than those beeing killed in car accidents yes there could be that low sentences or high poverty could influence the figures but they re still pretty high right i also believe texas has some of the most liberal gun laws in usa i should not suffer because of others we all agree on this one but we also live in a sociaty and therefor we ll have to give up some of our freedom note the do you have an insurance then you ll have to pay because of what others do do you buy anything you are paying for those who return goods steal or even those who gets a bonus do you live with other people then you can t do ererything you d want burping farting playing music loud what the hell is he trying to say when you live in a society usa are stilll counted as one you have to saccrifice the question is how much one state don t remember which texas tried to impose a rule that you could only buy one gun each month think you all know what happened i respect the right to defend yourself but that right should not inflict on other people it seems like you all realize that you have a problem in america the only problem is that you won t take the car away from the drunk driver you hope to cure him first hope life comfirms to the standard of winnie the poh this is not a signature it s merely a computergenerated text to waste bandwith and to bring down the evil internet thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio no
|
9,783 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re clinton wants national id card aka ussr style internal passport in article apr hsh com paul hsh com paul havemann says in article c kse px cs cmu edu tsmith cs cmu edu tom smith writes in article apr ucsu colorado edu u fcrary ucsu colorado ed frank crary writes in article c jif i n boi hp com slack boi hp com david slack writes the idea of the card is bull in and of its self but i m curious to know do they plan on making it a requirement to always have it on you or is it only going to be required to be presented when trying to ge medical aid this at least has already been determined the blue cross medical coverage for all federal employees is a good model for a future national system to get emergency medical care anyone so insured must always carry their blue cross card before entering a hospital you must notify blue cross or they will refuse to pay your bills in an emergency where you must be treated before notifying them you must inform them within hours or if you are unable to do so for medical reasons the hospital must failing to do so within hours means they will not cover the hospitalization in you need your card to notify them and without the card the hospital certainly wouldn t know they had to therefore you are required to carry the card at all times or do without emergency medical coverage which works fine until you end up in the hospital because you were hit on the head and your wallet with your insurance card is stolen this happened to me and it took six months to sort the mess out these sorts of plans sound nice at first but in the end they just create a lot of paperwork and bureaucracy to deal with all the checking and filing they involve tom the non hacker whoa have a care what you say tom the obvious answer to that problem is to tatoo your national i d number on you say your forearm so you can never leave home without it hell it worked once before and that brings us back to my original sarcasm laden post where s the outcry from the liberal sector over the national id card my god if some conservative had proposed this plus clinton s national police proposal the liberals would be shrieking sieg heil and police state you self styled liberals ought to be ashamed of yourselves hypocrites i don t know what you watch but i saw a spokesman for the aclu voice opposition to this idea on nbc the very first night
|
9,784 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re waco clinton press conference part i predict that the outcome of the study of what went wrong with the federal assault in waco will result in future assaults of that type being conducted as full scale military operations with explicit shoot to kill directives dave feustel n myi feustel netcom com i m beginning to look forward to reaching the allocation of taxes to pay for the interest on the national debt at that point the federal government will be will go out of business for lack of funds
|
9,785 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re cost benefit analysis was fbi director s statement has anyone noticed or commented on the fact that so many of those who were willing nay demanding that we wait forever for mr hussein and iraq that we use tremendously costly sanctions to avoid a loss of life are now at the fore front of those clammoring that we should have smashed those religious radicals and we were wasting money allowing this stand off to go on how the worm turns when the sect changes
|
9,786 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re blast them next time oldham ces cwru edu daniel oldham babbles what happened in waco is not the fault of the batf if they would of had the proper equipment and personal then they could of captured the compound on the initial assault and none of this would of happened if they d gone to the door and knocked on it to serve the warrant like the sheriff had done other times they wouldn t have needed to have an initial assault but then herr klinton and attorney gen l reno wouldn t have been able to have told such heroic stories about how they protected the rest of us from a group of people who kept to themselves miles out in the prairie the batf needs more people better weapons and more armored transports when they meet hostile fire they should be able to use more force instead of retreating to a stand off if you are going to do a job then do it right the batf is there to protect us and they must have the proper equipment and people to do the job the batf needs to be disbanded this out of control group of rambo wannabees is a danger to the republic with the wod and the increased crime in the streets the batf is needed more now then ever if they blast away a few good fokes then that is the price we all have to pay for law and order in this country well i figure you re going to get flamed pretty badly by everybody else for this incredibly stupid statement so i ll just let it pass for now case western reserve huh do the feds know about that big stockpile of automatic weapons and crack you have in your house are you the same daniel oldham that lives on orchard drive just so they get the address right that is look at all the good people that died in wars to protect this great country of ours well it used to be a great country now i m not so sure i knew a few of those good people who died in wars i was in viet nam i can assure you none of us fought to protect the right of the government to attack its own citizens with military force without provocation hint serving a search warrant is not sufficient provocation to stage a military style assault on a religious group at least not here in the us maybe in iraq or syria with the arms build up in waco they needed to hit that compound with mega fire power they could of gone in there blasting and killed a few women and kids but it would of been better then letting them all burn to death days later this is a joke right or are they really letting fools like you into cwru now too bad used to be a good school how d you get in anyway did your old man buy a new wing for the library
|
9,787 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re the dayton gun buy back re boston gun buy back in article c uchu ffn cbnews cb att com lvc cbnews cb att com larry cipriani writes according to wnci fm radio this morning dayton ohio is operating a gun buy back they are giving for every functional gun turned in they ran out of money in one day and are now passing out vouchers of some sort they are looking for more funds to keep operating another media event brought to you by hci is there something similar pro gun people can do for example pay to anyone who lawfully protects their life with a firearm sounds a bit tacky but hey whatever works ack what a public relations nightmare just begging happen gun lobby pays vigilanties nra to shell out dough to gunfighters david veal univ of tenn div of cont education info services group pa utkvm utk edu i still remember the way you laughed the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft i m beginning to think you don t love me anymore weird al
|
9,788 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article c sv hjy news cso uiuc edu irvine uxh cso uiuc edu brent irvine writes do you eat all your food cold ever hear of electric ovens or microwaves very popular electric stoves outside metro areas especially the dividians didn t have that option after the fbi cut off their electricity flag burners don t bother me as much as seeing the american flag on tanks assaulting the church of americans who had never bothered anyone
|
9,789 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re don t knock the glock was re my gun is like my am ex card in article apr mksol dseg ti com pyron skndiv dseg ti com seriously there is no difference in the safeties betweena glock and any da revolver intellectually think of the glock as a very high cap revolver ignoring stove pipes misfeeds and all the other bonus exercises that autoloaders give you that is on a da revolver you get another try on a misfire on a pistol where the trigger does not cock the hammer like a jennings or an astra m or a glock a misfire requires the slide be cycled to get the gun to function rather than a high capacity revolver think of a glock as an astra m with no manual safety and a heavier trigger pull jim del vecchio
|
9,790 |
talk.politics.guns
|
latest on texas hb ccw i called the texas bill tracking people again today regarding hb concealed carry well it was supposed to come up for a vote this past wednesday but the bill got sent back to the public safety committee the psc gave it a favorable rating again and the bill must now be scheduled for debate by the calendars committee again daryl biberdorf n gjm d biberdorf tamu edu sola gratia sola fide sola scriptura
|
9,791 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re some more about gun control in article apr beaver cs washington edu graham cs washington edu stephen graham writes in article qicep obf transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com c d tavares writes in article apr beaver cs washington edu graham cs washington edu stephen graham writes re is john q public with a gun protected it s worth noting that us vs miller sustained miller s conviction of possession of an illegal firearm noting that a sawed off shotgun was not a proper militia weapon no they noted that no one had claimed that it was a proper militia weapon despite having been used in at least two wars this was true since neither miller nor his lawyer appeared before the court did they or did they not sustain miller s conviction i don t have the text of the case handy miller was convicted of owning a sawed off shotgun and not paying the nfa tax snatches of the court s decision the second amendment was intended to assure the continuation and render possible the effectiveness of such a force the militia it must be interpreted and applied with that end in view the militia includes all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense however regarding sawed off shotguns certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment or that its use could contribute to the common defense judicial notice is the term of art here it meant that no such evidence had been formally presented this is different from claiming that they had ruled that it wasn t yes shotguns had been used in wwi the spanish american war and the us civil war that was not in question the possession of a sawed off shotgun was i e a weapon altered to improve concealibility i m not talking about plain shotguns in war i m talking about short barrelled sawed off shotguns in war compare revolutionary war blunderbusses luparas in the spanish american war and trench cleaners in ww i they were also put to good use by us soldiers in ww ii not to mention being invaluable to tunnel rats in vietnam but of course miller took place in therefore us vs miller supports limited government regulation of firearms don t go arguing down this road unless you are willing to abide by the consequences that you find at the end of it mainly that the law abiding common man has a right to own any weapon that has a militia purpose from handguns to sawed off shotguns and fully automatic weapons that in fact is what this decision says you are free to produce evidence that i m not willing to abide with all the implications of this here is my quandary you seem to be arguing that certain types of guns fall outside the scope of the second this isn t a useful argument unless you believe that some significant gun or class of gun belongs in that class i think we both agree that zip guns probably aren t protected maybe we also both agree that all the weapons that random state governments have been banning or trying to ban because they have no sporting purpose and no provate citizen would ever need these guns do fall under the protection of the second so given that damn near any gun of any practical utility is or has at some time been used by the military even if only for marksmanship training purposes i need to understand why you are intent on pressing this point arguing that that something is not protected by the second just because i don t whole heartedly endorse the nra position does not mean that i oppose the rkba this attitude is what makes the nra unpopular often what makes someone unpopular is what other people say about him how much did any of us fear or abhor the branch davidians six months ago how many of us feared or abhorred saddam hussein five years ago cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
|
9,792 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re gritz jbs liberty lobby larouche christic insitute libertarian in article c l bc c x cs cmu edu rubinoff cs cmu edu robert rubinoff writes in article u uicvm uic edu u uicvm uic edu writes note that bo gritz was on the populist party ticket with david duke for veep in until he found out that duke was leading he ticket when he withdrew his candidacy that s a revisionist account of what happened gritz was well aware of duke s presence on the ticket given that gritz is not at all shy about associating and promoting other white supremacists such as the christian identity movement or willis carto whatever reasons gritz had to leave the ticket had nothing to do with duke s presence so gritz gave up his chance to be vice president of the us just to aviod supporting duke i d hardly call that giving up his chance to be vice president of the us the chance of the populist party ticket winning is essentially nil still it does imply that he doesn t want to be associated with duke i believe chip berlet has a populist party newsletter from the time with a photo of gritz happily shaking hands with duke ted frank thf kimbark uchicago edu i m sorry the card says moops the u of c law school standard disclaimers
|
9,793 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re some more about gun control in article apr mtu edu cescript mtu edu charles scripter writes in article c bu m k ulowell ulowell edu jrutledg cs ulowell edu john lawrence rutledge wrote in article q tpinnpcn gap caltech edu arc cco caltech edu aaron ray clements writes the second amendment is a guarantee of the right to bear arms clearly and unequivocally without infringement unfortunately the second amendment is not as clear as you state if last part of it is taken along it follows what you have said the problem i have is with the first part of the single sentence which makes up the amendment the second amendment is a well regulated militia being necessary to the security militia of a free state the right of the people to keep and bear state arms shall not be infringed arms you didn t even get the capitalization correct try reading usca on the constitution or get any other correct version of the constitution this mention of a well regulated militia is what confuses me according to the federalist paper s a well regulated militia has a well defined structure and follows nationally uniform regulations perhaps you should actually read the federalist papers james madison federalist paper besides the advantage of being armed which the americans possess over the people of almost every other nation the existence of subordinate governments to which the people are attached and by which the militia officers are appointed forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of europe which are carried as far as the public resources will bear the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms james madison i annals of congress june the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed a well regulated militia composed of the body of the people trained to arms is the best and most natural defense of a free country alexander hamilton federalist paper on the organization of the militia little more can reasonably be aimed at with respect to the people at large than to have them properly armed and equipped and in order to see that this be not neglected it will be necessary to assemble them once or twice in the course of a year alexander hamilton federalist paper speaking of standing armies if circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens little if at all inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms who stand ready to defend their own rights and those of their fellow citizens but surely hamilton and madison didn t mean the people when they said people right that s why the amendment refers to the right of the militia your average year old male does not fall into the definition you re right the militia consists of all able bodied males and probably females under current interpretation therefore most members of the militia the one the every gun advocate refers to are not members of a well organized militia and therefore are not directly the amendment does nor refer to well organized it says well regulated i have some targets you may examine if you wish to check how well regulated i am mentioned in the amendment if this amendment wanted to allow every member of the militia to keep and bear arms why did it specificly mention a well organized militia in the same sentence as the right to keep and bear arms correct that s why the right is reserved to the people and that was to insure the people could form a well regulated militia not a well organized militia it could be argued that the first part of the sentence is separate from the last part if so why was it include in the same atomic unit of written what do atomic units have to do with this argument any moron can set h bar c instead of a separate sentence oh i see what your question is why don t you read the federalist papers james madison federalist paper regarding the general welfare clause nothing is more natural nor common than first to use a general phrase and then to explain and qualify it by a recital of particulars but what does madison know about the grammatical style of the nd he only wrote it the amendment also implies that the right to arms has to due with the security of a free state the federalist paper s mention of a well regulated militia gives many examples of how this militia protects the security of a free state all these examples are actions of a very organized force not some john q public with a gun that s obviously because you ve never actually read the federalist papers all that the second amendment clearly states to me is that the people s right to form well regulated militias shall not be infringed that is people have the right to join a well organized militia this well organized militia will of course provide training in how to use arms and in basic military tactics these training members of the militia can keep and bear the arms can t read huh show me where the document says well organized militia lastly reading through the federalist paper s on well organized militia it is very clear that many of the reasons for these militias one reason stated is the protection from a standing army these days the standing army could easily defeat a group consisting of every year old male and female not in the armied forces that is exactly why every person should be allowed to own any weapon currently in use in the armed forces another reason stated for well organized militias is to reduced the need for a standing army well the us armied forces have been a standing army for more than half the history of the us but the major reason is to protect against that very same army it seems to me the whole reason for the second amendment to give the people protection from the us government by guaranteeing that the people can over through the government if necessary is a little bit of an anachronism is this day and age maybe its time to re think how this should be done and amend the constitution appropriately abraham lincoln first inaugural address march this country with its institutions belongs to the people who inhabit it whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it or their revolutionary right to dismember it or overthrow it rep elbridge gerry of massachusetts spoken during floor debate over the second amendment i annals of congress at august what sir is the use of a militia it is to prevent the establishment of a standing army the bane of liberty whenever governments mean to invade the rights and liberties of the people they always attempt to destroy the militia in order to raise an army upon their ruins so now we know which category mr rutledge is in he means to destroy our liberties and rights charles scripter cescript phy mtu edu dept of physics michigan tech houghton mi when all government in little as in great things shall be drawn to washington as the centre of all power it will render powerless the checks provided of one government on another and will become as venal and oppressive as the government from which we separated thomas jefferson in article q tpinnpcn gap caltech edu arc cco caltech edu aaron ray clements writes the second amendment is a guarantee of the right to bear arms clearly and unequivocally without infringement unfortunately the second amendment is not as clear as you state if last part of it is taken along it follows what you have said the problem i have is with the first part of the single sentence which makes up the amendment the second amendment is a well regulated militia being necessary to the security militia of a free state the right of the people to keep and bear state arms shall not be infringed arms you didn t even get the capitalization correct try reading usca on the constitution or get any other correct version of the constitution there are several ways in which one can choose to intrepret any constitutational issue a original intent b subjectively intrepreted accordiong to political whims of the day if we use original intent as the basis for intrepreting the constitution it is clear that the founding fathers intended that the individual citizen be allowed to bear arms similar to those used by soldiers of the day for references i cite federalist papers the embarassing second ammendment yale law review prof stanford levinson sorry i don t have the date handy prof levinson sought to prove that the nd ammendment did not convey an individual right but concluded that it did hence the embarassing in his title report of the subcomittee on the consititution united states sendate th congress second session february u s vs verguido urguidez supreme court case in recent years although this case did not pertain to firearms justice rhenquist notes that the term the people is a term of art conveying individual rights and specifically cited several used nd ammentment included in his opinion title u s code this states that all males between the ages of not part of the organized militia and all female officers of the national guard are part of the unorganized militia feel free to cite any scholarly and historical references you have to support your position i could go on a greater length with my personal proof by assertion however such a technique would carry no more or less weight that your dubious proofs by assertion
|
9,794 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re gritz jbs liberty lobby larouche christic insitute libertarian in article c l bc c x cs cmu edu rubinoff cs cmu edu robert rubinoff writes in article u uicvm uic edu u uicvm uic edu writes note that bo gritz was on the populist party ticket with david duke for veep in until he found out that duke was leading he ticket when he withdrew his candidacy so gritz gave up his chance to be vice president of the us just to aviod supporting duke i d hardly call that giving up his chance to be vice president of the us the chance of the populist party ticket winning is essentially nil still it does imply that he doesn t want to be associated with duke robert exactly after all he was in the same party probably just didn t want the bad press that being directly associated with duke would bring conversely is his disdain for david duke supposed to make us ideolize him i mean a stand against neo nazism whoa now that s progressive come on i certainly know that i would refuse and openly denounce my vice presidency if it meant putting him in control stephen white live simply that others may simply live mohandas k gandhi
|
9,795 |
talk.politics.guns
|
need info on and suicide for refutation the following is quoted from the tail end of a rather condescending article about paxton quigley that appeared in us snooze and world lies sorry i think it was in the wall street journal and was repeated in the colorado people s daily a student newspaper at the university of colorado at boulder a study of residential gunsot deaths in king county wash found that a gun in the home was times more likely to be used to kill its owner spouse a friend or child than to kill an intruder studies by the western psychiatric institute in pittsburgh found that the mere presence of a gun in the home sharply incresases the likelihood a family member will commit suicide even in the absence of psychiatric illness i have seen these numbers quoted before and i have seen very specific refutation of them quoted as well if someone will be so kind as to email the relevant information i will write a letter to the editor of the co daily which might get published and send a copy to usn wr as well thanx dan dod loki acca nmsu edu liberty or death taylordf ucsu colorado edu send me something even you can t read
|
9,796 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re gritz jbs liberty lobby larouche christic insitute libertarian from arf genesis mcs com jack schmidling subject re gritz jbs liberty lobby larouche christic insitute libertarian date apr i can t speak for the organizations you cited but everywhere you look in our society and government one can see the relentless movement toward one world government the fact that the media demeans such charished values as patriotism nationalism and protectionism are some of the clues our porous border both people and trade are an indiciation that we have already lost a great deal of sovergnty and i m sure that people who were big fans of fuedalism pissed and moaned about the emergence of the modern nation state imagine the king allowing serfs their freedom if they could live in the city for a year times change technology changes viable forms of social organization change while concerns about preserving western notions of civil liberties in the face of cultures with very different values is a valid one it s a waste of effort to try to turn back the tide it s much smarter to focus on trying to make sure that the emerging forms of social organization are acceptable than it iss to lament the passing of the old forms
|
9,797 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re some more about gun control in article c l n ll ulowell ulowell edu jrutledg cs ulowell edu john lawrence rutledge writes so the phrase the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed must either qualify or explain the phrase a well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state stuff deleted since the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed does not describe modify or make less harsh anything and it has nothing to do with grammar or some sort of position or task by process of elimination it must fall into definition and since deals with legal power the same thing the constitution does it must be the correct definition in this case therefore the right of the people to keep and bear arms gives legal power to the well regualated militia and this legal power shall not be infringed ah clarification by obfuscation actually the words a well regulated milita being necessary to the security of a free state is a present participle used as an adjective to modify militia which is followed by the main clause of the sentence the subject being the right the verb shall it asserts that the right to keep and bear arms is essential for maintaining a milita the sentence doesn t restrict the right or state or imply possession of the right by anyone or anything other than the people all it does is make a positive statement regarding a right of the people the people as in you and me as in the first fourth ninth tenth as well as the second amendment the existence of this right is assumed it is not granted by the amendment there is no stated or implied condition relating the right to bear arms to the necessity of a well regulated militia to the security of a free state in other words the entire sentence says that the right to keep and bear arms is unconditional so in effort not to force my views and not to destory our liberties and rights i state that nothing i have written or will write in the matter of liberties and rights is the final word for i am only one person among many and the final word on liberties and rights cleary and irrevocably belongs to the many the final word on liberties and rights should not belong to the many that is why we have a constitution otherwise a tyrrany of the majority can ensue from popular opinion a concept which you should be familiar with from the federalist papers al standard disclaimer
|
9,798 |
talk.politics.guns
|
re the slaughter followups to talk politics guns rl russell lawrence kr karl rominger kr i support the right of any citizen with out a criminal history to own and use firearms regardless of race gender and religion rl thanks for admitting that you yourself adhere to an illogical dogma well folks in t p guns want to show how russell s illogical dogma is wrong gary strand opinions stated herein are mine alone and are strandwg ncar ucar edu not representative of ncar ucar or the nsf
|
9,799 |
talk.politics.guns
|
randy weaver trial day this was posted to the firearms politics mailing list hi folks wednesday marked day the beginning of the trial opening statements were given by both the prosecution and the defense each side presenting its version of what happenned last august the prosecution argued that weaver and his family moved to idaho in anticipating a battle with the evil federal government the prosecution alleges that weaver sold federal agents sawed off shotguns and later failed to appear for trial despite repeated good faith efforts to get weaver to surrender peacefully weaver refused the shootout erupted when weaver discovered agents on a surveillance mission and began firing according to the prosecution three people were taking an offensive action against an fbi helicopter when an fbi sniper killed vicki weaver the defense argued that weaver and his family moved to northern idaho in to practice their religion in peace they wanted simply to be left alone weaver was induced by federal agents to sell the short barrelled shotgun and did not as the prosecution alleged want to become a regular supplier the defense also argued that the federal government sought to arrest weaver when he wouldn t become an informant it is not specified explicitly but i assume that this is a reference to the white separatist angle of the story we ll know more as things develop the failure to appear in court happenned because weaver was given an incorrect court date and then indicted before that date the shootout occurred when federal agent arthur roderick killed weaver s dog that was in proximity to weaver s son samuel weaver then fired in self defense in the ensuing battle federal agent william degan was killed when his gun was later found there were cases nearby and the gun was on semi automatic however agents were near the body for an extended period of time and could have played with the select fire this will have to be more fully explained finally the defense claims that vicki weaver was only going to look at the body not recover of her son when she was cut down by an fbi sniper prosecution quote weaver wanted that confrontation and he made that confrontation asst u s attorney kim lindquist defense quote the evidence in this case is going to show that this is a case where randy weaver and kevin harris are charged with crimes they didn t commit in order to cover crimes that the government did commit gerry spence nice soundbite notes the idaho statesman claims that weaver supporters heeded a call from spence not to repeat yesterday s protests outside the courthouse however the local nbc affiliate again had footage on the news with supporters including tim again tim claimed he was a skinhead who were ordinary working class people he also claimed he was for white pride not white power outside the courthouse the television crew had an impromptu interview with bo gritz who charged that the neo nazi protestors are exactly what the government wants to smear randy weaver in an affiliated article carried in the idaho statesman about a dozen lawyers were among the or so people packed into the courthouse these lawyers were present to watch gerry spence in action and to perhaps learn something from him some tidbits spence flatly told the jurors that he and his son kent were volunteering their time to represent weaver because they believed in him spence during his minute opening statement repeatedly walked behind weaver and placed his hands on the defendants shoulders weaver broke down and cried during the recounting of his wife s death and spence compared the sawed off shotgun to driving mph when the limit was another good one today thursday april th the prosecution was scheduled to begin presenting evidence drew ron phillips crphilli hound dazixca ingr com senior customer engineer intergraph electronics east evelyn avenue voice mountain view ca fax
|
Subsets and Splits
No community queries yet
The top public SQL queries from the community will appear here once available.