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re guns gone good riddance in article apr gnv ifas ufl edu jrm gnv ifas ufl edu says ah i love posts like this many people have already replied to this one as i knew they would i m not going to say much as this just seems like baiting to me someone decided to post to see how many people would get mad and reply i am just going to ignore it but i do have one thing to say see below surrender your arms soon enough officers will be around to collect them resistance is useless they will overwhelm you one at a time listen buddy if you re going to quote star trek get the quote right it was resistance is futile get it right the next time jason u uicvm cc uic edu
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re what to do if you shoot somebody in article apr uoft utoledo edu steiner jupiter cse utoledo edu jason think steiner says jason kratz u uicvm uic edu writes say you re in a situation where you have to pull a gun on somebody you give them a chance to get away but they decided to continue in their action anyway and you end up shooting and killing them my question is what do you do should you stay and wait for the cops or should you collect your brass if you re using a semi auto and get out of there provided of course you don t think that you have been seen what kind of laws are on the books regarding this type of situation what would be the most likely thing to happen to you if you stayed and waited and it was a first offense what would happen if you took off but someone saw you and you were caught ghods do you have any idea how much trouble you d get into for taking off like that leaving the scene of an auto accident is bad enough killing someone leaving is times worse who s going to seriously believe it was self defense when you took the time to collect your spent casings but officer i reload well like someone said in a reply to this it really all depends on the area that you live in see david veal s reply to this i have heard exactly the same thing that he said in his reply to fade away if you think that you haven t been seen i heard this from a police officer for the record though he was talking about in tennessee not everywhere even if you could get away with it you re still a fugitive do it nice legal keep your law abiding status send your story into the armed citizen column of american rifleman jason jason u uicvm cc uic edu
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re what to do if you shoot somebody in article veal utkvm utk edu veal utkvm utk edu david veal says in article u uicvm uic edu jason kratz u uicvm uic edu i have heard many opinions on this subject and would like to hear more from the people on the net say you re in a situation where you have to pull a gun on somebody you give them a chance to get away but they decided to continue in their action anyway and you end up shooting and killing them my question is what do you do should you stay and wait for the cops or should you collect your brass if you re using a semi auto and get out of there provided of course you don t think that you have been seen as a data point from tennessee a friend of mine and a police officer essentially recommends that if you can fade away even if you were perfectly justified you re likely in for a great deal of hassle a side note carrying a gun concealed is a misdemeanor this is exactly what i have heard before if you were to fade away and nobody saw you what kind of evidence would they be able to get to catch you this is assuming that you either collected your brass or had a revolver what kind of laws are on the books regarding this type of situation what would be the most likely thing to happen to you if you stayed and waited and it was a first offense what would happen if you took off but someone saw you and you were caught it s one of those by state things pretty much guess it s time to take a trip to the library and look at the illinois statutes again just for the record folks i m just asking this because i m curious i m just trying to find out from people who have read more on stuff like this david veal univ of tenn div of cont education info services group pa utkvm utk edu i still remember the way you laughed the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft i m beginning to think you don t love me anymore weird al jason u uicvm cc uic edu
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re my gun is like my in article apr vax oxford ac uk jaj vax oxford ac uk writes what all you turkey pro pistol and automatic weapons fanatics don t seem to realize is that the rest of us laugh at you you don t make me angry you just make me chuckle i remeber being in bellingham washington and seeing a warning flammage to follow ah that british sense of humor probably got a real gut buster going when the ira blew that kid up a couple of weeks ago huh of course in britain your government has ordered you defenseless so your way of coping with violent criminals is to laugh at victims pick up truck in front of the car that my friend and i were in it had a bumper sticker proclaiming gun control is a firm grip on a now i m sure that that wanker thought he was pretty cool i don t know about a my own preference is for mm what he didn t realize was that we took a photo of the back of his truck and showed it to our friends when we got back to vancouver canada where i m from originally people were guffawing at the basic stupidity of such a sticker and the even greater stupidity of the person who put it there in the first place ah canada where the criminals don t bother with checking to see if the victims are home they just break on in america s a little different you see criminals worry a bit more about getting shot so they more frequently check to see if anyone s home i knew somebody else who went to one of your gun mart superstore places just so he could experience the sight of people putting guns and ammo into shopping carts i didn t believe it myself until i drove by one in vegas last year i ve heard gun world in phoenix arizona is fantastic i m hoping to visit there myself soon now that i live in britain i can see how the rest of the civilized world perceives you gun nut morons the bbc recently referred to the american penchant for pistols automatic weapons etc very appropriately it was called a national eccentricity ah britain again isn t that the place where you re guilty until proven innocent tell me mr jaj vax oxford ac uk didn t britain come begging to us gun nut morons in the early s for guns to defend yourselves against hitler seems as though your supposedly enlightened government had disarmed you aw chaps you can jolly give up your guns if that hitler man starts to threaten we can always hit up the yanks for a few guns they ve got a bloody eccentric habit about those guns you know just hand in your shotgun that s it thank you the only problem is that canada i hear is suffering from your national eccentricity in that easy to purchase weapons are being smuggled cross the border ain t it just amazing how those black markets work damn if those drugs from south america keep coming over our borders too even though we ve banned them guess we might as well legalize them makes you want to send fifty bucks to the libertarian party just thinking about it doesn t it anyway all you gun nut rush limbaugh fans please keep up your diatribes against brady and other evil liberal media plots you re so damn funny you provide endless amounts of entertainment in your arguments and examples of why someone should be allowed to carry a piece keep us all chuckling your close minded ignorance is without parallel i guess that s what happens when you re raised as a subject without rights your type gravitates to those who desire to hold power over you hell i miss those nra ads with gerald mcrainey now that i m over here those were like monty python sketches just chuckle as the cops beat you senseless to get a confession just laugh yourself silly when you find that confession is valid in court hey mate this is justice british style drew betz gozer idbsu edu brought into your terminal from the free state of idaho when you outlaw rights only outlaws will have rights spook fodder fema nsa clinton gore insurrection nsc semtex neptunium terrorist cia mi mi kgb deuterium
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cdn gun laws moderator nice summary keith thanks i talked to the federal dept of justice doj ottawa to try and clarify a bunch of things regarding changes to canadian gun laws i am posting here for informational purposes questions to email followup to t p g it is still technically feasible but almost impossible to get a concealed carry permit in canada this is contrary to what i was told by a police officer it is still legal to use lethal force such as a firearm to protect life also contrary to what the officer told me guns must be stored locked up and unloaded however regarding hi capacity magazines it is still not clear who will be exempt or how this will be managed this is up to each province the general idea is that exempt persons will receive a letter form authorizing them to possess the high capacity magazines apparently the authorization is to specify how many of these prohibited weapons you will be allowed to possess dealers will be allowed to order high capacity mags for those allowed to possess them but will not be allowed to stock them high capacity magazines converted to comply with the new limits will not be considered prohibited weapons amendments to the regulations specify some possible methods to alter the magazines some manufacturers beretta will be marketing reduced capacity magazines god knows how much they ll charge for these this covers most of what we discussed i have typed this from memory do not take it as gospel i am not a lawyer and i refuse to play one on tv keith p de solla p eng ipsc ontario oha nfa sfc ofah keith orion ic cmc ca frontenac rifle and pistol club
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sign of the times article in this morning s houston post negotiators send food to rebellious inmates as humanitarian gesture speaking about the ohio prison riot where they have killed at least one of the hostage guards i know it s not the same group but the mindset appears to be common to those what rule here lately they won t give diddley to the bd s in waco but they treat criminals as deserving of humanitarian gestures this is but another indicator that the criminal caste seems to enjoy more priviliges in today s society than their victims or other law abiding citizens what is it that makes the criminal so precious to the leaders of the system could it be that the criminal is one of the tools the authorities are using to excuse some of the rights negation they are trying to foist upon the law abiding citizen in the name of crime control don t solve the crime problem because then the citizen couldn t be held hostage to our help if the crime problem were solved in favor of the citizen victim at the expense of the criminal none of the crap such as rico and gun banning could be used as excuses to work the agenda of those who would control our every move and thought olx if i have to explain you wouldn t understand ye olde bailey bbs v bis v bis houston texas yob sccsi com home of alt cosuard
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re ban all firearms jrm gnv ifas ufl edu writes firearms tend to fall into this low dollar pound area it would not be economic to smuggle them in all production would have to be local there are not all that many people who have both the skill and motivation to assemble worthwhile firearms from scratch high ranking crime figures could obtain imported uzis and such but the average person and average thug would be lucky to get a zip gun and would pay through the nose for it so why did the australian customs service make a public statement to a parliamentary committee last year that weapons smuggling was a problem which it was not able to control possibly criminals don t have your grasp of economics geoff miller g miller adfa edu au computer centre australian defence force academy
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re nd amendment dead good oh christ here we go again i m actually going to assume that this was a serious posting fool that i am in article apr gnv ifas ufl edu jrm gnv ifas ufl edu writes yea there are millions of cases where yoy say that firearms deter criminals alas this is not provable i think that that there are actually few cases where this is so and i suppose i should just take your word for it did you ever think that many people who use firearms to protect themselves might not admit to it because of the ridiculous laws which exist forbidding concealed carry the bulk of firarems are used against unworthy and unnesessary opponents those who posessa a cool jakcet you want those who would argue with you about a parking space those who would take your woman in short trivial and worthless causes i already own a cool jacket i ride a bicycle to work and park it behind my desk and if my woman decides to go with someone else i d be disappointed but killing her new suitor will probably not endear her to me any more than before frankly i ve never met a woman worth killing for anyway now an ar with a chrome barrel that s worth killing for too much of this has ruined you cause there is no recovery in the near future federal martials will come for your arms no one will help you you are more dangerous to their thinking than the criminal this is your own fault does this pinhead know something the rest of us don t i m not too worried about federal martials coming to get my guns the government can t seem to keep violent criminals in jail since they don t have enough prison space and the legal system is over burdened anyway where are they going to put all the millions of gun owners who won t fork over their weapons maybe you d like to volunteer the services of your humble abode since you obviously feel sooooo strongly about this the nd amendment is dead accept this find another way your argument has been rendered useless accept this find another newsgroup lee gaucher nra my opinions gaucher sam cchem berkeley edu no one else s
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ohio house bill otto beatty s military weapons ban note ohio legislation unlike federal legislation shows the entire law as it would be changed by the legislation these parts are in all capitals the rest i e current law is in regular type as introduced th general asembly regular session h b no represenative beatty a bill to amend sections and and to enact section of the revised code to expand the defintion of dangerous ordnance to include military weapons that do not use bolt action to increase the penalty for a violation of the prohibition against possession of dangerous ordnance to prohibit any person from acquiring a military weapon on or after the act s effective date to require the licensure of military weapons acquired for aproper purpose prior to the act s effective dte to prohibit a person from importing manufacturing or selling a military weapon and to declare an emergency be it enacted by the general assembly of the state of ohio section that sections and be amended and section of the revised code be enacted to read as follows sec as used in section to of the revised code a deadly weapon means any instrument device or thing capable of inflicting death and designed or specially adapted for use as a weapon or possessed carried or used as a weapon b firearm means any deadly weapon capable of expelling or propelling one or more projectiles by the action of an explosive or combustible propellant firarms includes an unloaded firearm and any firearm which is inoperable but which can readily be rendered operable when determining whether a firearm is capable of expelling or propelling one or more projectiles by the action of an explosive or combustible propellant the trier of fact may rely upon circumstancial evidence including but not limited to the representations and actions of the individual exercising control over the firearm c handgun means any firearm designed to be fired while held in one hand d semi automatic firearm means any firearm designed or specially adapted to fire a single cartridge and automatically chamber a suceeding cartridge ready to fire with a single function of the trigger e automatic firearm means any firearm designed or specially adapted to fire a succession of cartridges with a single function of the trigger automatic firearm also means any semi automatic firearm designed or specially adapted to fire more than thirty one cartridges without reloading other than a firearm chambering only caliber short long or long rifle cartridges f sawed off firearm means a shotgun with a barrel less than eighteen inches long or a rifle with a barrel less than sixteen inches long or a shotgun or rifle less than twenty six inches long overall g zip gun means any of the following any firearm of crude and extemporized manufacture any device including without limitation a starter s pistol not designed as a firearm but which is specially adapted for use as a firearm any industrial tool signalling device or safety device not designed as a firearm but which as designed is capable of use as such a firearm when possessed carried or used as a firearm h explosive device means any device designed or specially adapted to cause physical harm to persons or property by means of an explosion and consisting of an explosive substance or agency and a means to detonate it explosive device includes without limitation any bomb any explosive demolition device any blasting cap or detonator containing an explosive charge and any pressure vessel which has been knowingly tampered with or arranged so as to explode i incendiary device means any firebomb and any device designed or specially adapted to cause physical harm to persons or property by means of fire and consisting of an incendiary substance or agency and a means to ignite it j ballistic knife means a knife with a detachable blade that is propelled by a spring operated mechanism k dangerous ordinance means any of the following except as provided in division l of this section any automatic or sawed off firearms zip gun or ballistic knife any explosive device or incendiary device nitroglycerin nitrocellulose nitrostarch petn cyclonite tnt picric acid and other high explosives amatol tritonal tetrytol pentolite pecretol cyclotol and other high explosive compositions plastic explosives dynamite blasting gelatin gelatin dynamite sensitized ammonium nitrate liquid oxygen blasting explosives blasting powder and other blasting agents and any other explosive substance having sufficient brisance or power to be particularly suitable for use as a military explosive or for use in mining quarrying excavating or demolitions any firearm rocket launcher mortar artillery piece grenade mine bomb torpedo or similar weapon designed and manufactured for military purposes and the ammunition for that weapon any firearm muffler or silencer any military weapon any detachable magazine magazine drum belt feed strip or similar device that has a capacity of or that readily can be restored or converted to accept more than fifteen rounds of ammunition any combination of parts that is intended by the owner for use in converting any firearm or other device into a dangerous ordinance l dangerous ordnance does not include any of the following any firearm including a military weapon and the ammunition for that weapon and regardless of its actual age which employs a percussion cap or other obsolete ignition system or which is designed and safe for use only with black powder and any pistol rifle or shotgun designed or suitable for sporting purposes unless the firearm is either of the following a a military weapon as issued or as modified and the ammunition for that weapon b an automatic or sawed off firearm any cannon or other artilery piece which regardless of its actual age is of a type in accepted use prior to has no mechanical hydraulic pneumatic or other system for absorbing recoil and returning the tube into battery without displacing the carriage and is designed and safe for use only with black powder black powder priming quills and percussion caps possessed and lawfully used to fire a cannon of a type defined in division l of this section during displays celebrations organized matches or shoots and target practice and smokeless and black powder primers and percussion caps possed and lawfully used as a propellant or ignition device in small arms or small arms ammunition dangerous ordinance which is inoperable or inert and cannot readily be rendered operable or activated and which is kept as a trophy souvenir curio or museum piece any device which is expressly excepted from the definition of a destructive device pursuant to the gun control act of stat u s c a as amended and regulations issued under that act m military weapon means any of the following any firearm that originally was manufactured for military use or a copy of any such firearm if the firearm is not a bolt action firearm any model of any of the following firearms that is a semi automatic firearm and is a rifle or any model of any copy of any of the following firearms that is a semi automatic firearm and is a rifle a armalite ar b auto ordnance thompson models a and m c avtomat kalashnikov d poly tech ak s e china sports ak bullpup f mitchell ak and m g barrett light fifty model a h baretta ar i bushmaster auto rifle j calico m and m k colt ar l commando arms carbine mark mark and mark m universal carbine enforcer n american arms arm and aky o daewoo max and max p fabrique nationale fn fal fn lar and fn fnc q famas mas r feather at s federal kc and xc t galil ar and arm u goncz high tech carbine v heckler and koch hk hk hk and psg w mandall tac carbine x ruger mini sf folding stock model y sig amt and series z springfield armory sar g bm alpine and m a carbine aa sterling mk and mark bb steyr aug cc uzi carbine and mini carbine dd valmet m s m m and m bullpup carbine ee weaver arms nighthawk ff military m and military m carbine gg springfield armory m a assault hh thompson a with drum magazine ii plainfield commando universe carbine jj cobray m with or without silencer kk spectre auto carbine ll swd cobray mm armi jager ap and ap commando nn armscorp of america israeli fn fal oo clayco sks carbine pp dragunov sniper qq emf ap rr iver johnson pm p paratrooper ss norinco sks tt partisan avenger uu sigarms sg sp and sg sp vv squires bingham m ww wilkinson terry carbine any model of any of the following firearms that is a semi automatic firearm and is a pistol or any model of any copy of any of the following firearms that is a semi automatic firearm and is a pistol a bushmaster auto pistol b calico p auto pistol c ebcin nj iv mp and mp d feather mini at e goncz high tech pistol f holmes mp and mp g intratec tec and scorpion h iver johnson enforcer i ingram mac and mac j mitchell arms spectre auto k scarab skorpion l sterling mk m uzi pistol n universal enforcer o wilkinson linda auto pistol any model of any of the following firearms that is a semi automatic firearm and is a shotgun or any model of any copy of any of the following firearms that is a semi automatic firearm and is a shotgun a franchi spas and law b striker and street sweeper c benelli m super d mossberg bullpup e usas auto shotgun sec a no person shall knowingly acquire have or carry any dangerous ordnance no person shall knowingly use any dangerous ordnance b this section does not apply to any of the following officers agents or employees of this or any other state or the united states members of the armed forces of the united states or the organized militia of this or any other state and law enforcement officers to the extent that any such person is authorized to acquire have carry or use dangerous ordnance and is acting within the scope of his duties importers manufacturers dealers and users of explosives having a license or user permit issued and in effect pursuant to the organized crime control act of stat u s c and any amendments or additions to or reenactments of that act with respect to explosives and explosive devices lawfully acquired possessed carried or used under the laws of this state and applicable federal law importers manufactuers and dealers having a license to deal in destructive devices or their ammunition issued and in effect pursuant to the gun control act of stat u s c and any amendments or additions to or reenactments of that act with respect to dangerous ordnance lawfully acquired possessed carried or used under the laws of this state and applicable federal law persons to whom surplus ordnance has been sold loaned or given by the secretary of the army pursuant to a stat and u s c and any amendments or additions to or reenactments of that act with respect to dangerous ordnance when lawfully possessed and used for the purpose specified in that section owners of dangerous ordnance registered in the national firearms registration and transfer record pursuant to the act of october stat u s c and any amendments or additions to or reenactments of and regulations issued under the act carriers warehousemen and others engaged in the business of transporting or storing goods for hire with respect to dangerous ordnance lawfully transported or stored in the usual course of their business and in compliance with the laws of this state and applicable federal law the holders of a license or temporary permit issued and in effect pursuant to section of the revised code with respect to dangerous ordnance lawfully acquired possessed carried or used for the purposes and in the manner specified in the license or permit c division a of this section does not apply to the acquisition having or carrying of dangerous ordnance that is a military weapon if both of the following apply the person who acquires has or carries the dangerous ordnance in question acquired it before the effective date of this amendment as a collector s item or for a legitimate research scientific educational industrial or other proper purpose no later than the close of business on the seventh day after the effective date of this amendment the person who acquired the dangerous ordnance in question in accordance with division c of this section submitted an application pursuant to section of the revised code for a license to have and carry it and the application has not been denied or a valid license has been issued to the person d divisions a and of this section do not apply to the acquisition having carrying or using of any dangerous ordnance described in division k of section of the revised code that was acquired prior to the effective date of this amendment e whoever violates this section is quilty of unlawful possession of dangerous ordnance a an aggravated felony of the first degree sec a any person who acquired a military weapon before the effective date of this section shall file a written application for a license to have and carry the military weapon with the sheriff of the county or safety director or police chief of the municipal corporation where the applicant resides or has his principal place of business the application shall be filed no later than the close of business on the seventh day after the effective date of this section and shall be accompanied by a filing fee of fifty dollars the person shall file a separate application and pay a separate filing fee for each military weapon that he has or intends to carry the application shall contain all of the following information the name age address occupation and business address of the applicant if the applicant is a natural person or the name address and principal place of business of the applicant if the applicant is a corporation a description of the military weapon for which a license is requested including the serial number and all identification marks a statement of the purpose for which the military weapon was acquired and for which it is to be possessed carried or used any other information that the issuing authority may require in giving effect to this section the oath of the applicant that the information on the application is true b no later than the close of business on the fourteenth day after an application for a license to have and carry a military weapon has been filed under division a of this section the issuing authority shall either approve the application and issue a license to the applicant or deny the application and send a letter of denial by ordinary mail to the applicant after conducting any necessary investigation the issuing authority shall issue a license to an applicant whom it determines satisfies the following criteria a the applicant is twenty one years of age or older if the applicant is a natural person b it appears that the applicant will possess and carry the military weapon as a collector s item or for a legitimate scientific educational industrial or other proper purpose c it appears that the applicant has sufficient competence to have and carry the military weapon and that proper precautions will be taken to ensure the security of the military weapon and the safety of persons and property d the applicant otherswise is not prohibited by law from having or carrying dangerous ordnance a license issued pursuant to division b of this section shall be valid for one year after the date of its issuance the license shall be renewed pursuant to division c of this section c except as provided in division c of this section any person who is issued a license under division b of this section shall renew the license by filing an application for renewal by regular mail with the sheriff of the county or the safety director or police chief of the municipal corporation who was the issuing authority of the license an application for renewal shall be filed annually no later than one year after the date on which the license was issued or last renewed each sheriff and each safety director and peace officer of a municipal corporation shall make available applications for the renewal of a license issued under division b of this section in the application the applicant under oath shall update the information submitted in the previous application for a license or the renewal of a license the application for the renewal of a license shall be accompanied by a fee of five dollars the applicant shall file a seperate application for renewal and pay a seperate renewal fee for each military weapon that he intends to continue to have and carry a person who has changed his residence or principal place of business to a location outside of the jurisdiction of the issuing authority subsequent to the issuance or renewal of a license under this section shall renew his license by filing an application in the manner prescribed by division a of this section with the sheriff of the county or the safety director or police chief of the municipal corporation where he then resides or has his principal place of business when making an application to renew a license after a change in residence or place of business the applicant shall give notice of the change of address by regular mail to the original issuing authority for the license and the state fire marshall on notification forms prescribed by the sheriff safety director or police chief from whom he seeks renewal d a license to have and carry a military weapon shall identify the person to whom it is issued identify the military weapon for which it is issued state the purpose identified in division b b of this section for which the military weapon will be possessed and carried state its expiration date and list all restrictions on the having or carrying of the military weapon as prescribed by the laws of this state and applicable federal law e any person who is issued a license to have and carry a military weapon under this section and who changes his address shall notify the issuing authority of the change of his address no later than ninety days after the change has occurred f the issuing authority shall forward to the state fire marshall a copy of each license issued or renewed under this section the state fire marshall shall keep a permanent file of all licenses issued or renewed under this section g the issuing authority shall cause each application fee of fifty dollars filed under division a of this section to be deposited in the general fund of the county or muncipal corporation served by the issuing authority the issuing authority shall cause two dollars and fifty cents of each renewal fee filed under division c of this section to be deposited in the general fund of the county or municipal corporation served by the issuing authority and shall send two dollars and fifty cents of each renewal fee to the treasurer of state for deposit in the state treasury to the credit of the general revenue fund h whoever violates division a of this section is guilty of failing to apply for the licensure of a military weapon a felony of the fourth degree whoever violates division c of this section is guilty of failing to apply for renewal of a license for a military weapon a misdemeanor of the first degree i a military weapon that is not licensed as required by this section is contraband as defined in section of the revised code and is subject to forfeiture under section of the revised code sec a no person shall do any of the following import manufacture possess for sale sell or furnish to any person any military weapon recklessly sell lend give or furnish any firearm to any person prohibited by section or of the revised code from acquiring or using any firearm or recklessly sell lend give or furnish any dangerous ordnance to any person prohibited by section or of the revised code from acquiring or using any dangerous ordnance possess any firearm or dangerous ordnance with purpose to dispose of it in violation of division a of this section manufacture possess for sale sell or furnish to any person other than a law enforcement agency for authorized use in police work any brass knuckles cestus billy blackjack sandbag switchblade knife springblade knife gravity knife or similar weapon when transferring any dangerous ordnance to another negligently fail to require the transferes to exhibit any identification license or permit showing him to be authorized to acquire dangerous ordnance pursuant to section of the revised code or negligently fail to take a complete record of the transaction and forthwith forward a copy of the record to the sheriff of the county or safety director or police chief of the municipality where the transaction takes place knowingly fail to report to law enforcement authorities forthwith the loss or theft of any firearm or dangerous ordnance in such person s possession or under his control b whoever violates this section is quilty of unlawful transactions in weapons violation of division a of this section is an aggravated felony of the first degree violation of division a or oof this section is a felony of the third degree violation of division a or of this section is a misdemeanor of the second degree violation of division of this section is a midemeanor of the fourth degree section that existing section and of the revised code are hereby repealed section this act is hereby declared to be an emergency measure necessary for the immediate preservation of the public peace health and safety the reason for this necessity is that with immediate action this act will prohibit the continued purchase possession and use of military weapons and as a result will ameliorate a substantial threat of death and injury to the public caused by the misuse of improper use of these weapons therefore this act shall go into immediate effect larry cipriani l v cipriani att com
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re guns gone good riddance in article apr gnv ifas ufl edu jrm gnv ifas ufl edu writes you are loosing there is no question about it you can t spell there is no question about it of those who vote your cause is considered an abomination no matter how hard you try public opinion is set against the rkba we must be reading different public opinion polls i agree that the misguided public would like to see assault weapons banned mainly because they are being lied to by the media about the frequency of their use in violent crime but if public opinion were so dead set against the rkba you can bet that idiots like metzenbaum and schumer would be seeing their foolish bills getting passed through congress a lot easier than they are and as governments go broke and can no longer protect their citizens you can bet that the american people will start to really appreciate the usefulness of firearms contrary to what you might think time is probably on our side not yours this is the end by the finish of the clinton administration your rkba will be null and void tough titty yeah right don t hold your breath my condolences on the discovery of uncomfortable resilience in your mammary glands but this has nothing to do with the issue at hand ridiculous tripe deleted the press is against you the public the voting public is against you the flow of history is against you this is it yeah the liberal press doesn t like us much but you can t really expect coherent thought from them anyway their opinions are based more on a desire to appear politically correct than on facts which are generously provided by the fbi if they d bother to put on their birkenstocks and go to the library to read them most of my friends are anti gun and without exception none of them bases his her opinions on facts they would rather believe despite all evidence to the contrary that disarming law abiding citizens would make the world more civilized when all it really does is make us all sheep they would rather wallow in their pitiful liberal white guilt about how society has driven the criminal to rob rape and murder they support spending millions of public dollars protecting the rights of scum who have already demonstrated that they have no regard for society or its laws they ignore the fact that areas with the strictest gun control nyc dc have the worst crime and areas with little gun control vt nh id have very little crime in comparison but they have to ignore this because otherwise they would need to confront the fact that law abiding citizens who own guns are not the ones that are causing most of the trouble in society oh no we certainly can t accept that but i guess i have faith that when crime starts making significant inroads into their neighborhoods and starts directly hurting them and their families they will probably whistle a different tune they just better hope it isn t too late then surrender your arms soon enough officers will be around to collect them resistance is useless they will overwhelm you one at a time hmmm i wasn t expecting company tonight i might be able to whip up a quick cheese and cracker plate but they should probably bring their own drinks do i have time to vacuum the rug too fucking bad you have gone the way of the kkk violent solutions are passe avoid situations which encourage criminals then you will be as safe as possible such as it is i m glad you ended the posting here your medication seems to have worn off lee gaucher nra my opinions gaucher sam cchem berkeley edu no one else s
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re nd amendment dead good excerpts from netnews talk politics guns apr nd amendment dead good by jrm gnv ifas ufl edu yea there are millions of cases where yoy say that firearms deter criminals alas this is not provable i think that that there are actually few cases where this is so excerpted from a letter i wrote a while ago although less apparent to those who have not researched the facts personal protection is as legitimate a reason as sport for the private citizen to own a gun the most recent research is that of dr gary kleck of the florida state university school of criminology he found that handguns are more often used by victims to defeat crime than by criminals to commit it vs respectively in this study these figures are even more encouraging when you consider the number of crimes that never occur because of the presence of a gun in the hands of a law abiding private citizen in a national institute of justice study of ten state prisons across the country they found that of the felons surveyed had aborted at least one crime because they believed that the intended victim was armed and agreed that most criminals are more worried about meeting an armed victim than they are about running into the police one of the most heinous of crimes is that against the women of this country it has been my recent observation that more women are purchasing handguns for defense in response to the present danger of these assaults this should be taken as encouraging news if the events of orlando florida are any indicator in the late s the female populace was plagued with a series of brutal assaults just the publicity of the record number of women buying guns and obtaining training resulted in an decrease in rape for that area the only city of its size in the country to experience a decrease of crime for that year additionally a us justice department study of attempted rapes showed that overall when rape is attempted the completion rate is but when a woman defends herself with a gun the completion rate drops to g kleck point blank guns and violence in america aldine de gruyter ny jd wright ph rossi armed and considered dangerous a survey of felons and their firearms aldine de gruyter ny unlike cats dogs never scratch you when you wash them they just become very sad and try to figure out what they did wrong dave barry seth eliot dept of material science and engineering carnegie mellon univerity pittsburgh pa arpa eliot cmu edu or se andrew cmu edu bitnet se andrew cmccvb
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definition of nd the debate over the second amendment rages on arguments continue over what a well regulated militia is and what trkba means in practical terms however the only authority in this area is a binding court decision on the matter even a decision in this area is subject to an overturning by a higher court is there anyone who has the facts of a legal precedent preferably a supreme court decision on the specific meaning of the nd amendment
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re cnn for sale in article aej d cmuvm bitnet aej d cmuvm bitnet writes in article uupcb yob sccsi com jim wray yob sccsi com jim wray says bill vojak bv i read in the paper yestarday that ted turner wants to trim down bv his media holdings and is putting cnn up for sale the potential bv bidder time warner of course sigh just what we need maybe now s the time for us the nra goa ccrtkba saf et al to band together and buy cnn as our voice wouldn t that be sumpin broadcast the truth for a change and be able to air a favorable pro gun item or two i would like to see this happen i don t think it will i don t think the average gun owner will take any notice of what is happening until they break down his door but i will go on record publicly to the effect that i will contribute a minimum of to the buy out fund if it can be organized and made viable anybody else want to put their money where their mouth is there ar million gun owners out there if and it s a big and not very realistic if we got hold of cnn the anti gun bullshit would stop right there why won t it happen because nobody will get off their ass and make it happen nuts i will join the ranks here if someone has the ability to actually put this thing together and get enough support i ll also contribute to the effort and jeeze people i m a student with no job yet and i will put up my own hard earned savings if it means we have a shot at getting the truth told on the airwaves count me in mike ruff this above all to thine own s t r i d e r mikey ccwf cc utexas edu self be true polonius those who would sacrifice essential liberties for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety b franklin
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re guns in backcountry no thanks reimer uinpla npl uiuc edu paul e reimer writes there are a lot of automobile accidents but atleast there is some regulation to try to combat this when i got my drivers license i had to take a drivers safety class i have to be licensed to drive my car must be registered i must at least where i live have liability insurance on both myself driving and my car if someone else had an accident with it hmm wouldn t manditory saftey classes registration of both the owner and gun and manditory liability insurance be nice for gun owners as i m sure others will have pointed out to you by now none of the above measures are required for you on your own property you do not have to have a license your car does not have to be registered or inspected and you do not have to have insurance or safety training classes when you own and operate that vehicle on your own premises if you are going to make use of this dubious analogy at least make it accurate and by the way in texas you can drive a car in public with the proper credentials but an ordinary civilian can t carry a gun legally in public to save his her life so i won t even consider registration manadatory safety classes or manadatory liability insurance unless i get a federal law repealing all local state and federal gun control laws which abridge the second amendment and a non discretionary federal weapons carry permit good anywhere in the united states come on you wanted the analogy mike ruff this above all to thine own s t r i d e r mikey ccwf cc utexas edu self be true polonius those who would sacrifice essential liberties for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety b franklin
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re guns gone good riddance jrm gnv ifas ufl edu writes you are loosing loosing well i ll avoid the spelling flames and see if this person can make up for it there is no question about it oh there s lots of question about it people are becoming more aware each day that their rights are being threatened so much so that nra membership is growing at the rate of nearly per day we are slowly gaining our rightful voice despite the biases prejudices and veiled motives of the liberal media and anti gun politicians we will win of those who vote your cause is considered an abomination no matter how hard you try public opinion is set against the rkba what do you base this on some highly skewed poll conducted by nbc news the same group who faked gm pickup explosions just to make news right this is the end by the finish of the clinton administration your rkba will be null and void tough titty it is true that we face even greater obstacles to our rights betrayed by those lying politicians who swear an oath to protect the constitution from all enemies both foreign and domestic but the people will take only so many lies and deceits you had better discover ways to make do without firearms the number of cases of firearms abuses has ruined your cause there is nothing you can do about it those who live by the sword shall die by it then the criminals who live by murder shall die by it honest law abiding citizens need have no fear on that count you however will evidently die by or at least in ignorance and the number of firearms self defenses shall spell out our ultimate victory the press is against you the public the voting public is against you the flow of history is against you this is it the flow of history was against the founding fathers but they managed to successfully form the first real free republic on the face of this planet a republic that has become the model for all others to follow the press is against us for its own selfish motivations and the people will soon realize the depths of deceit being spread by that media and nullify its ill directed power the people are with us surrender your arms soon enough officers will be around to collect them resistance is useless they will overwhelm you one at a time your neighbors will not help you they will consider you more if an immediate threat than the abstract criminal i shall never submit to an illegal unconstitutional police state i will take my own vow to uphold the constitution and i shall defend it and my country against a tyrannical government gone mad should it become necessary too fucking bad you have gone the way of the kkk violent solutions are passe avoid situations which encourage criminals then you will be as safe as possible such as it is i will not be your sacrificial sheep and i shall not bow down to you or anyone else who seeks to control my life being an unarmed target is the surest way of encouraging criminals and believe me i shall avoid it as much as possible then i shall be as safe as possible i will answer with violence only when no other option exists but i shall surely answer mike ruff this above all to thine own s t r i d e r mikey ccwf cc utexas edu self be true polonius those who would sacrifice essential liberties for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety b franklin
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re nd amendment dead good jrm gnv ifas ufl edu writes yea there are millions of cases where yoy say that firearms deter criminals alas this is not provable i think that that there are actually few cases where this is so you think wrong ask the fbi they ve got the proof look it up the bulk of firarems are used against unworthy and unnesessary opponents those who posessa a cool jakcet you want those who would argue with you about a parking space those who would take your woman in short trivial and worthless causes you lie like a snake the vast majority of the million firearms in this country are never used in anger your feelings notwithstanding too much of this has ruined you cause there is no recovery in the near future federal martials will come for your arms no one will help you you are more dangerous to their thinking than the criminal this is your own fault we will overcome the kind of blind pig headed utterly stupid idiocy that you and others spout in a vain attempt to further your own agendas we will make the truth be known despite your best efforts to the contrary the nd amendment is dead accept this find another way the second amendment won t be dead unless it is repealed that won t happen ever accept this find another way to try and control other s lives because we see you for what you are and we are not fooled mike ruff this above all to thine own s t r i d e r mikey ccwf cc utexas edu self be true polonius those who would sacrifice essential liberties for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety b franklin
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re with friends like these l neil smith papresco undergrad math uwaterloo ca paul prescod writes some guns will get through but far fewer and far less people will die because of them do you have any statistical evidence to back you claim that requires another limitation of the citizenry freedom steve podleski phone nasa lewis research center cleveland ohio email pspod hooch lerc nasa gov
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re batf fbi murders almost everyone in waco today in r qk innc m clem handheld com jmd cube handheld com writes in article c rynw iz news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes i balance my gut reaction to question authority together with the independent facts as i see them on video i usually adopt the scenario that is simplest and most plausible i do not generally believe in conspiracy theories that involve complicated and unlikely scenarios then answer the question why was no one else permitted to talk to koresh koresh had a lawyer deguin who he spoke to in person several times during the last few weeks it cannot be denied that if they had left them alone there would have been no fire yesterday this strikes me as a tad ingenous if x had done note done y then z would never have happened i tend to place tha responsibility on the group person actually committing the act not on those whon forced them to do it after all to take an extreme example if the british were not in northern ireland the ira would not be forced to place bombs in shopping centers that said this whole sorry story was a totally unecessary utterly fucked up mess from the get go semper fi jammer jim miller texas a m university and i don t speak for uh which is too bad because they could use the help become one with the student billing system be the student billing system power finds its way to those who take a stand stand up ordinary man rik emmet gil moore mike levine triumph
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letter to the president here s a copy of a letter i m e mailing to the slickster at his address of compuserve com to william j clinton president of the united states of america mr president i am writing to express my utter outrage at the conduct of various government agencies in regards to the tragedy in waco i demand the dismissal or resignation of lloyd bensen secretary of the treasury who bears responsibility for the initial helicopter and grenade attack by the atf against the branch davidians and of janet reno who authorized the final assault on the very day that we were commemorating the warsaw ghetto revolt and i would truly appreciate it if you would make sure something like this never happens again on your watch respectfully yours kenneth d whitehead get involved gang it s your republic let s take it back i will be much more willing to believe the government s side of the waco story after we are allowed to hear from the survivors so far all we ve gotten has been censored by the very people who have the most to cover up and i d really like to know how they got the press who complained so loudly about being kept off the front lines during the gulf war be such obedient lap dogs in waco kind of makes me wonder if this so called freedom of the press isn t highly overrated ken whitehead kdw odin icd ab com
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re insane gun toting wackos unite in article heimdall sdrc com crrob sony sdrc com rob davis writes do you know how many deaths each year are caused by self inflicted gun shot wounds by people wearing thigh holsters no but i have several other breakdowns of accidental shootings i ve never seen one that specifically provides the info that davis insists that he has so i d love to have a cite if you fall for example and land on the handgun or cause a sudden blow the gun will discharge wrong there s one gun design where that can happen and it is supposed to be carried with the hammer over an unloaded chamber cocking the gun turns the cylinder so that a loaded cylinder is under the hammer in other words it can be usefully carried in a safe manner other handgun designs don t have that property if their trigger isn t pulled the hammer can t hit the firing pin the number of people killed in this manner far outweighs the number of deaths caused by animal attacks or wacko attacks combined the breakdowns that i do have include the above category from them i can safely say that if davis is right in all of his claims a large negative number of people are killed by animals because we know that the number of killings by wackos is reasonably large and that the number of accidents due to gun failures which is a superset of the described circumstance is near zero i can find the figures if you don t believe me please do include a cite for those of us who like looking at context make sure that your source excludes other types of accidents and suicides that are misreported gun cleaning accident is police speak for the family needs the insurance money andy
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re proper gun control what is proper gun control in l a the first recorded survivor of a shot to the heart that lady not only killed her attacker but chased him down to do it all four of her shots fired after she had been shot struck the perp atta girl the bullet entered her on a downward angle went through the apex of her heart down through the diaphragm clipped her liver and destroyed her spleen it then exited her back leaving a tennis ball sized hole she died about six times on the operating table but was out of the hospital in days and was back on full duty in eight months she was off duty at the time and not wearing her vest she was on her way home so happened to have her gun no she doesn t think civilians should have the same rights sigh well if police think they are so special that only they are worthy of self defense perhaps we start putting the arm on police maybe we should start demanding that police are only police when on duty that after that they are just like the ordinary disarmed helpless chumps they consider civilians let s prohibit arms carrying by police when off duty or if they make the assertion that well i need to maintain my gun let s make it regulation that they can carry an unloaded firearm home that it s only fair that they be just as helpless as poor schmuck coming home from his computer operator job nra director ex san jose cop leroy pyle states in the latest swat magazine that anti cops better watch out for this schism between rkba folks and the police he asks the rhetorical question of what if what s left of the gun lobby starts demanding the disarmament of the police well i guess anti gun cops who think only they should be armed along with the wealthy and politically connected should be made to realize that screwing can cut in ways they have yet to imagine
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re the pill for deer no hunting in article apr gnv ifas ufl edu jrm gnv ifas ufl edu writes you might have missed the u s news world report excerpt i posted it is fairly consistant with other such polls finding that approximately of households have at least one firearm ok a near majority actually own firearms but i will still claim that the vast majority never needs to use them or even threaten anyone with them to self defense incidents a year doesn t count with you what do they do right or are they just lucky maybe they re just unlucky if a rapist pulls a woman into an alley in boston chances are almost certain that she won t be counted as one of those self defenders because our local constabulary didn t consider it important that she be allowed to arm herself even though the shotgun she owns at home makes her show up in the gun owner column in either case this means the average threat level in this country is rather low ironic words for somebody who lives in florida the average threat level in florida has been reduced by a liberal ccw policy it s well known that your local thugs like to target tourists precisely because they are less likely to be carrying than your natives come on up to boston or nyc or washington dc and see how much diddlysquat the average threat level in the country means to a resident there i think you have weapons on the brain i never said that these alternative means of self protection involved any hardware why are good neighborhoods good it isn t because every person is armed to the teeth it is because of attitude and cooperation in the good neighborhoods the residents make themselves aware of their neighbors and notice when strangers are lurking around good neighborhoods form groups like crime watch to increase this effect and the relative effectiveness of the police when hostiles are arrested the good neighbors step up and say that s the one officer he was robbing mr jones house sometimes this works sometimes it just lands your good neighbors on the dance card for the next wave of drive bys someone here once told a story about la gangs moving into phoenix i ve misplaced the original text but the story started with one resident calling the cops on a gang member sure enough a few nights later there was a drive by performed at the resident s house except that this time unlike in la the entire street came out and returned fire putting an end to the car s occupants the gang packed up and left of course in la or in a place like florida after the hurricane your first problem is to find an officer to step up to and tell anything in short the alternative to firepower is gangs or at least a benificent manifestation of that social cooperative replace lead with flesh the flesh makes a better conversationalist too and you can invite it over for a block party look nobody is arguing this i have a fire extinguisher at home that doesn t mean i can be careless about tossing my burnt matches on the carpet i live carefully monitor the woodstove get my flue cleaned twice a year and test my smoke alarms annually but if despite all this a fire does start it s too late for any of these things except the extinguisher but legality and legitimacy also matter if a government s charter makes a rule which the government then violates it is violated the basis for its existance enforcement of its will becomes a matter solely of force of arms oliver north the man is positively worshiped in many all american conservative quarters he and big ron set up a secret government and did all sorts of severely illegal deeds the kind of stuff you and i would be doing twenty to life for yet he walks free this bs happens all the time in fact it happens so much that no one really cares anymore legitimacy is a non issue legality is a non issue so long as we get t bones and our mtv who gives a rats ass you seem to be agreeing with your opponent you can t trust your government to protect you from abusers and violators white collar blue collar epauletted or tank shirted ultimately no one has the power to enforce your rights but you unless you ve given up that power no i claimed that no one is interested in the statistical aspects of the argument pure emotion like the abortion issue too many people fit that category that is true some of us like to believe that they are uninterested in the facts behind the case for gun ownership because they ve been conditioned to believe that there aren t any you seem content to underestimate the electorate i m willing to try to raise their consciousness argue away you can t win i think we can hci was founded in what in the mid s they ran a one million strong campaign for two years before reaching this goal my understanding is that they reached it by the stratagem of including wide classes of people other than dues paying members i can t speak authoritatively on this maybe somebody else has details then they started running a two million strong campaign for a while but they let it slip into unannounced obscurity when it became clear that they simply were never going to reach that level of membership in just after the commencement of the dodd hearings the starting point of the modern gun control movement the nra had a mere members by barely after the first murmurs of future registration it had about a million today it has over three million members making it the third largest membership organization in the country next to aarp and aaa and its membership is growing faster than at any previous time historical figures from kukla s gun control pp and as you say many of the people in the middle of this debate are bemused by their t bones and mtv that leaves hard core gun owners against hard core gun banners i know a number of ex hci members who have recently become nra members i ve never heard of a single one who has gone the other way yes i think we can and will win this one firearms related mindless mayhem will be related to the availibility of firearms if they become scarce and and expensive a different psychology will take hold i think they would be used far less to settle trivial complaints i think they would be used far less to hammer nails as well but like you i can t give any citation showing that this utilization is currently significant at more than an anecdotal level if you can i m waiting cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
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re clinton wants national id card aka ussr style internal passport in article apr cc usu edu slp k cc usu edu writes btw which parts should be secure criminal records ie convictions are typically considered public information so should that info be secure remember the population includes parents checking prospective childcare worker like i said i m not sure of the details but it seems to me that you could access medical information without giving out a name or any other information medical info without a name body attached is completely useless for treatment the article i mentioned the the earlier post described a debit card type transaction in which neither the store nor the bank knew who was withdrawing the money thus making it as secure as cash for some purposes but far less secure for others parent s checking a babysitter shouldn t need access to the information stored in the card sure they do the prospective sitter may have a nasty habit of molesting kids three or four months into the job the references may not have known him long enough or may not have picked up on this yet remember criminal conviction info is public so if you re going to argue for an id card other people are going to have a strong argument that it disclose public info things i think anything that you choose to keep unknown should be thus making it useless for negative information could have it so that only doctors can access medical information police criminal records etc etc yeah right how are you going to keep doctors from spilling the beans we already know that you can t keep cops from disclosing info but at least that info is typically supposed to be public anyway like i said it s best if you read the article for yourself the article discusses technology not appropriate policy it also fails to deal with what happens if the folks with the secrets blab andy
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re my gun is like my american express card in article qie rinn b cae cad gatech edu vincent cad gatech edu vincent fox writes in u uicvm uic edu jason kratz u uicvm uic edu writes deleted and as far as fully automatic weapons you can be a lot better armed if you want to hit what you aim at what seems to be happening here is the situation getting totally blown out of proportion in my post i was referring to your regular patrolman in a car cruising around the city vs gang members of course the police have access to the things that you mentioned but do they use tanks and such all of the time of course they don t and that s the point i was trying to make every day when i go out to lunch i always see cops coming in the majority that i see are still carrying revolvers not that there is anything wrong with a revolver but if you re a cop that is up against some gang member with a couple of automatics in his coat i mean semi auto handguns you re going to be at a disadvantage even with training i have been at a shooting range where gang gang members were practicing shooting they were actually practicing taking out their guns as quick as possible and shooting at the target and they weren t doing too badly either the university cops here who are are state cops are armed better than the chicago police it seems most state cops are every city and suburban police officer i ve seen around the twin cities in the last two years has carried a semi auto of some type different brands though i haven t seen any glock s with regard to this discussion we are getting dangerously far from the usual rantings of t p g and close to the realm of r g but i d like to put my two cents worth in while there s nothing wrong with a revolver especially a large frame s w in magnum my favorite there are valid advantages to semi autos i suggest reading massad ayoob s i know some people can t stand him and think he s full of bull but i think that in general his material is very valid and useful book the semi auto pistol in police work or something like that he defines a number of ways that semi auto s are different and that different is good the main advantage is not in increased firepower but in more accurate followup shots when you go to single action mode there is also a certain propriatory nature of each gun that takes some familiarity to learn this may have diminished with time as more criminals become familiar with different models of semi autos but it was cited as stopping or at least slowing down criminals who had grabbed a police officers gun define armed better go shoot a revolver and a semi auto like the colt does one fires faster than the other nope aside from which faster rate of fire is usually not desirable sure it makes the other guys duck for cover but just you trying hitting anything with a thompson in hose mode this is why the military is limiting it s m now to round burst fire simple semi auto would be better but the troops like to be able to rock and roll even if it is wasteful of ammo something often in short supply when the enemy is plentiful a revolver is equally capable as a semi auto in the same caliber a revolver also has the advantage that if it misfires you just pull the trigger again a double action revolver almost all of them can be hand cocked first but will fire merely by pulling the trigger yes but this is best done with a two hand hold with a single hand you either pull the gun far off target to cock or must fire double action the da semi auto has the same advantages plus is always sa after the first shot a misfire in a revolver merely means you must pull the trigger again to rotate to the next round i m not sure if this is meant to be different from your first point in a da semi auto you can pull the trigger again to try dropping the hammer on the same round an advantage you don t have in a revolver where the next trigger pull will always go to the next round discussing this point now this is fine with a dud but what about a hangfire situation granted it s very rare but your round will now go off confined in the cylinder with no place to go slingshotting the slide on a misfire takes very little time a revolver can be carried with the th chamber empty and under the hammer for maximum safety but still can be drawn and fired with an easy motion even one handed actually with modern revolver designs incorporating hammer blocks this is not necessary or usually recommended a revolver would have to fall hard enough and at the right angle to actually break the hammer and driver the firing pin into the round to set it off speedloaders for a revolver allow reloads almost as fast as magazines on semi autos can be faster depending on users the best speedloader users especially those using the spring loaded speed loaders are very fast a problem is that ejecting the spent cases is a two handed job where dropping the expended magazine is one handed this means that while you can be inserting a fresh magazine as soon as the old one clears the gun with a speed loader you have to go through more motions that will always take more time you also don t have the advantage of tactical reloads replacing a partial magazine to bring you back to full capacity the partial magazine can still be used if needed later a misfire in a semi auto will require you to clear a jammed shell first time spent which can be fatal and a vital second or so is often lost as you realize hey it s jammed before starting to do anything about clearing it yes the time to recognize the problem is just as important as the time to clear it really though in either a revolver or semi auto the odds of an actual misfire with factory ammo are awfully small you are more likely to get a jam in a semi auto but even these are exceptionally rare with modern quality guns sigs glocks et al most semi autos must have the slide worked to chamber the first round and cock the hammer some police carry their semi autos with the chamber loaded and hammer cocked but a safety engaged i do not consider this safe however you must trade off safety to get the same speed of employment as a revolver there are some double action semi autos out there but the complexity of operation of many of them requires more training all common semi auto s can be carried with a round in their chamber without any safety problems while i put that out as a statement that i believe i should say that this applies to all of the ones i ve looked at for the da semi s it s no different from the revolver situation the guns all have hammer or firing pin blocks they also have a safety because there s no real advantage carrying one of these cocked and locked you have the same safety and speed of employment as a revolver plus the advantage of sa followup shots i m not familiar with sa semi autos except for the a i admit that i was initially skeptical about carrying this cocked and locked but after examining the design trying to defeat the safeties gun unloaded of course and shooting it a lot i see no inherent safety problems with it especially in a thumbreak holster with the strap under the hammer this design also gets you more speed for an accurate first shot than a revolver some police departments switched to glocks and then started quietly switching many officers back to the old revolvers too many were having accidents partly due to the poor training they received not that glocks require rocket scientists but some cops are baffled by something as complex as the timer on a vcr yeah the infamous glock i still can t figure out how it s worse than a revolver for safety if you don t pull the trigger it doesn t go off i imagine that if all your revolver shooting was done double action then you could pull the glock trigger far enough to fire before you realized it in addition if you had developed that nasty habit of keeping your finger on the trigger when holstering your gun and relying on your thumb on the hammer to remind you to take it off before you blew off your foot then you d have problems when the hammer wasn t there anyone who goes anyone saying that the criminals obviously outgun the police don t know nothing about firearms turn off cops and hunter and pay attention i do not seek here to say semi autos are junk merely that assuming they are better for all jobs is stupid a cop with a revolver on his hip and a shotgun in the rack is more than equipped for anything short of a riot i think this is even okay for a riot as long as it s a small one b gun control is hitting what you aim at if you whip out a wonder nine and fire real fast you may find you don t hit anything good controlled fire from a revolver is more likely to get you a hit i own a mm beretta myself but consider it inferior as a carry weapon to something like the ruger security six revolver if i haven t hit what i m aiming at in the first shots something is quite seriously wrong somewheres while i might like having the backup capacity of those extra shots in certain cases overwhelmingly the of shots fired in criminal encounters is less than i have the poor man s beretta taurus and consider it inferior as a carry weapon to the springfield oops mm vs arguments are relegated to r g you are right though if you don t hit what you aim at then the shooter gun combination has failed i don t ascribe failures in the the fire real fast with a wonder nine scenario you mention to the gun this is a shooter failure whether through lack of discipline or lack of training what do crooks overwhelmingly use in crime why the same nice simple revolvers that the police often use well actually some police prefer the much heftier magnum but anyway mm s are becoming more popular with crooks too though the does still lead the list and like i said around here semi auto s seem the rule for the street cop don t know about the state patrol however they may still carry the highway patrolman obplea don t flame me i prefer semi autos for most things but they introduce unneccessary complications to something as nerve wracking as an abrupt encounter with a lone criminal vincent please don t take any of this as a flame just my whoops looks more like worth and much of it is imho but do check ayoob s book if everything had gone as planned everything would have been perfect batf spokesperson on cnn regarding failed raid attempt in tx
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re non lethal alternatives to handguns in article apr yuma acns colostate edu holland cs colostate edu douglas craig holland writes what about guns with non lethal bullets like rubber or plastic bullets would those work very well in stopping an attack ask the brits enough people have been killed by rubber bullets that they now use them under only certain controlled circumstances and they are fired from something that looks like a tear gas launcher there are smaller rubber bullets and pellets for shotguns i understand that they are only intended to be discouragers ie for the snapping but not truly dangerous animal in general they do not seem capable of really stopping someone who wants you or past you they are fired at very low muzzle velocity the ball round is intended for a fps load finally as your mother warned you you can put an eye out with that thing dillon pyron the opinions expressed are those of the ti dseg lewisville vax support sender unless otherwise stated when i m here when i m home texans vote no on robin hood we need pyron skndiv dseg ti com solutions not gestures padi dm
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re high power assault guns high power assault gun why you must be talking about the mm howitzer or did you want to try a incher or one of the german railway guns dillon pyron the opinions expressed are those of the ti dseg lewisville vax support sender unless otherwise stated when i m here when i m home texans vote no on robin hood we need pyron skndiv dseg ti com solutions not gestures padi dm
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don t knock the glock was re my gun is like my am ex card in article u uicvm uic edu jason kratz u uicvm uic edu writes in article qie rinn b cae cad gatech edu vincent cad gatech edu vincent fox says all your points are very well taken and things that i haven t considered as i am not really familiar enough with handguns some police departments switched to glocks and then started quietly switching many officers back to the old revolvers too many were having accidents partly due to the poor training they received not that glocks require rocket scientists but some cops are baffled by something as complex as the timer on a vcr hell a glock is the last thing that should be switched to the only thing that i know about a glock is the lack of a real safety on it sure there is that little thing in the trigger but that isn t too great of a safety ahem hrumph you have encurred the wrath of glock owners we will beat you with our hammers oooops don t have any seriously there is no difference in the safeties betweena glock and any da revolver intellectually think of the glock as a very high cap revolver ignoring stove pipes misfeeds and all the other bonus exercises that autoloaders give you that is every gun has its safe moment and its dangerous moment if you just learn how to handle it it becomes a lot less dangerous to you dillon pyron the opinions expressed are those of the ti dseg lewisville vax support sender unless otherwise stated when i m here when i m home texans vote no on robin hood we need pyron skndiv dseg ti com solutions not gestures padi dm
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re newspapers censoring gun advertisements in article na em mcimail com mcimail com peter nesbitt writes recently while looking around in traders sporting goods store a very well stocked firearms store i discovered a printed document that was being distributed by the good folks who work there traders btw is located in san leandro ca the newspapers have now decided to censor gun ads which is why you no longer see the ads that traders san leandro has run for many years these ads were run for the law abiding honest citizens who own firearms for sporting use or self protection they certainly have the right to do so under the second amendment right to bear arms are you sure about this i m currently looking at a copy of last thursday s sf chronicle and there is the typical one column traders ad on page c in the sports section not only that but there is a part in the middle which rather prominently says wanted we pay cash for assault rifles and pistols granted i haven t seen today s paper yet but i d be surprised if there wasn t a traders ad in it it s probably worth it to write to the chronicle and other papers anyway because all their anti gun editorials are disgusting by the way let me put in a plug for traders i have shopped all over the sf bay area and i have never seen another store with lower prices and their selection is amazing lee gaucher my opinions gaucher sam cchem berkeley edu no one else s
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re proper gun control what is proper gun control was re my gun is like my american express card iftccu talk politics guns hays ssd intel com kirk hays pm apr some of the pro gun posters in this group own no guns the dread terminator aka the rifleman owned no firearms for several years while posting in this group as an example there are others for what it is worth i own no firearms of any sort as long time readers of this group know i am dedicated to the rkba this is not about toys it is about freedom dave barton dlb hudson wash inmet com
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re clinton wants national id card aka ussr style internal passport in article apr csd newshost stanford edu andy sail stanford edu andy freeman writes in article apr cc usu edu slp k cc usu edu writes btw which parts should be secure criminal records ie convictions are typically considered public information so should that info be secure remember the population includes parents checking prospective childcare worker parent s checking a babysitter shouldn t need access to the information stored in the card sure they do the prospective sitter may have a nasty habit of molesting kids three or four months into the job the references may not have known him long enough or may not have picked up on this yet remember criminal conviction info is public so if you re going to argue for an id card other people are going to have a strong argument that it disclose public info as perhaps some insight into how this sort of thing works the local college newspaper had a big crusade to have the u t police release crime stats the school claimed that to do so would violate federal education records privacy laws they swore up and down they weren t interested in student discipline records only for stats so people could make an evaluation of how safe the campus was it was barely a week after crime stats were released before the daily beacon had an editorial calling for student disciplinary stats to be released because they complained certain segments of the campus population were treated administratively rather than turned over to the police and therefore the criminal states weren t accurate what people say they want public today may not be what they say tomorrow david veal univ of tenn div of cont education info services group pa utkvm utk edu i still remember the way you laughed the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft i m beginning to think you don t love me anymore weird al
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re clinton wants national id card aka ussr style internal passport slp k cc usu edu writes i just want to point out that while i am fully in support of privacy it will be possible soon to have a completely secure id card useable in bank transactions medical etc etc there is no such thing as completely secure especially when dealing with high technology it s all a question of cost what cost are you willing to bear to protect your information vs what rewards the bad guys are going to get if they break it the rewards of breaking such a single id system would be high indeed tom swiss tms cs umd edu born to die keep your laws off my brain what s so funny bout peace love and understanding nick lowe this sig contains no animal products and was not tested on animals time is just nature s way of keeping everything from happening at once
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re boston gun buy back in article hpfcso fc hp com ron hpfcso fc hp com ron miller writes from urbin interlan interlan com mark urbin rm just a short thought when you ask the question of the authorities or sponsors of buyback programs whether they will check for stolen weapons and they answer no it s total amnesty please note that the given for each firearm in the boston buy back will not be in cash but money orders how much total amnesty can you get if you leave paper trail behind in the latest case in denver they were giving away tickets to a denver nuggets basketball game how traceable is a money order i don t know haven t used one in years money orders operate pretty much like checks with both parties being supposed to sign them i assume you d have to show the buy back people an id and you d then have a money order made out to that id as far as traceable as a practical matter i don t know it would depend on whether they bother to computerize who the recipient s name is on the money order and bother keying that sort of thing in i d say certainly the police and the buyback people would keep a record of who they gave money orders out to is that even an issue if the weapons aren t checked for being stolen there might be some questions asked i suppose if somebody brought in a number of weapons each time over a series of buy back programs david veal univ of tenn div of cont education info services group pa utkvm utk edu i still remember the way you laughed the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft i m beginning to think you don t love me anymore weird al
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re ban all firearms as quoted from c j im c cbnewsc cb att com by rats cbnewsc cb att com morris the cat firearms tend to fall into this low dollar pound area it would not be economic to smuggle them in all production would have to be local there are not all that many people who have both the skill and motivation to assemble worthwhile firearms from scratch high ranking crime figures could obtain imported uzis and such but the average person and average thug would be lucky to get a zip gun and would pay through the nose for it this is not borne out of reality the old soviet union had a very serious domestic handgun and submachinegun trade guns that were of commercial grade because they were produced in honest to goodness machineshops why would all production have to be local don t we have a road system that is the envy of the world if anybody wanted proof of the nonsense of the you can t build guns claim they need look no farther than the philippines amateur gunsmiths there regularly produce everything from automatics to full auto shotguns now if this guy wants to claim that the philippines is either technologically superior to the us or that their transportation is better than ours all i can say is that he s living in a fantasy world you re like a bunch of over educated new york jewish aclu lawyers fighting to eliminate school prayer from the public schools in arkansas holly silva
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re ban all firearms in article apr gnv ifas ufl edu jrm gnv ifas ufl edu writes if alcohol were again banned today it would be much more difficult to manage a large scale smuggling operation the cops now rank just a narrow notch below the military in communications intelligence gathering and firepower proof by assertion i love it uh please explain why the smugglers do not also rank a notch below or above the military in terms of communications intelligence gathering e g why fight officials when you can bribe them i ll give you a hundred grand to let that semi past and firepower in a similar vein the amount of marijuana smuggled into this country has greatly decreased this is because its value per pound is very low when compared to cocaine or heroin it s simply not worth the risk it s uneconomical now most reefer is domestic there is less pressure on the domestic producer showy raids notwithstanding and thus it is economical of note though domestic reefer is now very strong so a small volume goes a long way you cannot make alcohol stronger than proof not a good dollar pound deal what s the point here you re arguing that the black market works which it does of course firearms tend to fall into this low dollar pound area this is the wrong way to quantify things the smuggler would be concerned about value cubic foot go to a gun show and price out a crate of good quality handguns it would not be economic to smuggle them in all production would have to be local there are not all that many people what s local who have both the skill and motivation to assemble worthwhile firearms from scratch high ranking crime figures could what is a worthwhile firearm hell anything that works go get yourself a copy of the army s improvised munitions manual see how easy it is to make a functional firearm obtain imported uzis and such but the average person and average thug would be lucky to get a zip gun and would pay through the nose for it if paying for inconspicuous parts at the local k mart is through the nose drew betz gozer idbsu edu brought into your terminal from the free state of idaho when you outlaw rights only outlaws will have rights spook fodder fema nsa clinton gore insurrection nsc semtex neptunium terrorist cia mi mi kgb deuterium
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re my gun is like my american express card in article u uicvm uic edu jason kratz u uicvm uic edu writes all your points are very well taken and things that i haven t considered as i am not really familiar enough with handguns that s not all that kratz doesn t know hell a glock is the last thing that should be switched to the only thing that i know about a glock is the lack of a real safety on it sure there is that little thing in the trigger but that isn t too great of a safety now we know that kratz doesn t understand what a safety is supposed to do he also confuses things he can see with things that exist glocks have multiple safeties even though only one is visible from the outside a safety is supposed to keep the gun from going off unless that s what the user wants with glocks one says i want the gun to go off by pulling the trigger if the safeties it has make that work it has a real safety no matter what kratz thinks andy
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re proper gun control what is proper gun control was re my gun is like my american express card in article dlb apr fanny wash inmet com dlb fanny wash inmet com david barton writes for what it is worth i own no firearms of any sort as long time readers of this group know i am dedicated to the rkba a long time reader of t p g i am also a staunch rkba supporter yet i own no firearms this is not about toys it is about freedom amen brother nicholas sylvain sylvain netcom com i am the nra nicholas sylvain sylvain netcom com i am the nra
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re proper gun control what is proper gun control was re my gun is like my american express card in article iftccu ca boeing com bressler iftccu ca boeing com rick bressler writes iftccu talk politics guns hays ssd intel com kirk hays pm apr some of the pro gun posters in this group own no guns the dread terminator aka the rifleman owned no firearms for several years while posting in this group as an example there are others good point kirk he s still around too he s responded by email to a couple of my posts and gosh darn he s gotten down right civil this happed about the time he got his first firearm wonder if there is a relationship here turns out that most people at least the ones who are not criminals to start with act responsibility once given the chance i d like to point out that i was in error terminator began posting only six months before he purchased his first firearm according to private email from him i can t produce an archived posting of his earlier than january and he purchased his first firearm in march i guess it only seemed like years back to your regularly scheduled flame fest kirk hays nra life seventh generation the only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing edmund burke
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re ban all firearms as quoted from apr gnv ifas ufl edu by jrm gnv ifas ufl edu firearms tend to fall into this low dollar pound area it would not be economic to smuggle them in that depends only on the profit of doing so the differences in cost of production will determine local vs smuggle would have to be local there are not all that many people who have both the skill and motivation to assemble worthwhile those of us who have actually made semi autos full autos are easier are getting quite a giggle out of this i d estimate that of the people at my high school couldn t do it i was one of the few who failed shop people who have actually seen me do mechanical work would probably say that is more like it starting with even of the population you can be sure that enough people will be motivated firearms from scratch high ranking crime figures could obtain imported uzis and such but the average person and average thug would be lucky to get a zip gun and would pay through the nose for it how much is through the nose after all we know quite a bit about how much a gun is worth to a criminal so if that is dwarfed by the price demanded by the bad part of that the relevant economic analysis has been made the profit of gun crime is high enough that the price required to push criminals out of the market is high enough that everyone will be motivated that analysis ignored some improvements in the criminal gun market that could make them even cheaper they re not efficiently used now but a loaner set up would drive the value still higher without affecting criminal use andy
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hr a gun law i can live with d congress st session h r to establish the right to obtain firearms for security and to use firearms in defense of self family or home and to provide for the enforcement of such right in the house of representatives march mr bartlett introduced the following bill which was referred to the committee on the judiciary a bill to establish the right to obtain firearms for security and to use firearms in defense of self family or home and to provide for the enforcement of such right be it enacted by the senate and house of representa tives of the united states of america in congress assembled section short title this act may be cited as the citizens self defense act of sec right to obtain firearms for security and to use firearms in defense of self family or home enforcement a establishment of right a person not pro hibited by federal law from receiving a firearm shall have the right to obtain firearms for security and to use fire arms in defense of self family or home b firearm defined as used in subsection a the term firearm means a shotgun as defined in section a of title united states code rifle as defined in section a of such title or handgun as defined in section of public law c enforcement of right in general a person whose right under subsection a is violated in any manner may bring an action in any united states district court against the united states any state or any person for damages injunctive relief and such other relief as the court deems appropriate authority to award a reasonable at torney s fee in an action brought under para graph the court in its discretion may allow the prevailing party other than a state a reasonable attorney s fee as part of the costs d statute of limitations an action may not be brought under subsection c after the year period that begins with the date the violation described therein is discovered end of hr well this sounds good to me the key is section c which will effectively open up the federal court system to all the folks who can t afford to adopt an attorney with whom to fight city hall all of you who ve been saying hey isn t that illegal could just go hire your own attorneys on a pay if you win contingency fee basis and sue the bums what you can do now write your representative and ask them to co sponsor hr write representative roscoe bartlett the sponsor representative roscoe bartlett cannon house office building washington d c to tell him who your own representative is and that you ve asked them to join him as a co sponsor of hr contact gun owners of america gun owners of america forbes place springfield virginia which has committed to lobby on behalf of hr for those of us with a realjob tm find out how to reach representative bartlett s campaign fund i m working on it and toss in a few bucks you can bet your bippy that he s going to be one of the hci targets in the next election which isn t that far away tell your family friends gun club etc enjoy
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re newspapers censoring gun advertisements newspaper ad censorship the newspapers have now decided to censor gun ads which is why you no longer see the ads that traders san leandro has run for many years if you are tired of newspapers who run sex and liquor ads galor yet refuse to run legitimate gun ads please send a letter to the editors indicating your displeasure over their censorship doctrine following is a list of bay area newspapers who censor gun ads perhaps you d like to send them your thoughts on this issue contra costa times san mateo times san francisco chronicle pob pob mission st walnut creek ca san mateo ca san francisco ca san fran independent san fran examiner san jose mercury news evans ave th st ridder park dr san fran ca san fran ca san jose ca i have the april issue of the sf chronicle in my lap page e in the sporting green section has a trader s advert the copy is a bit screwed up it says that the prices offered expire but the ad is there the sf examiner and chronicle run the same set of adverts because they have a joint printing biz agreement and differ only in editorial content i ve seen gun ads recently in the merc which is anti gun editorially albeit not from traders but from its competitors i don t know about the other papers does traders claim that things are changing when why tv journalists lie because it s easier than telling the truth and no one much cares either way let me know if you write to any of these bozos before you do make sure that the bozos are actually doing what you re accusing them of andy
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re guns in backcountry no thanks in article qkcok s i usenet ins cwru edu ci cleveland freenet edu john k gever writes do you rambos who worry so much about rape and murder in the wilderness also carry your guns all the time at home too you should since you re in a hell of a lot more danger there than in the backcountry when does carrying a tool classify someone as a rambo so all the pioneers that came west were rambo s adrienne does anybody reading this group have an actual honest to god experience with violent crime in the backcountry to tell about i can sort of understand the people who want to protect themselves from bears and such although there are what maybe a dozen or two bear attacks on people in north america each year but to worry about being raped by some buck toothed bubba in overalls is just irrational i think we d all be a lot safer if all the videocassettes of deliverance were gathered up and burned would your tune change if you were one of the dozen or two bear attacks believe me when you need a firearm you need a firearm public health experts will tell you that you are far more likely have your gun stolen use it yourself on a family member or have it used on you than you are to use it on an actual criminal please cite your references i ll let others please note followup cite valid references to show you that this is an untruth the rambo warriors we ve heard from here undoubtedly consider themselves exempt from this statistical reality they re much too smart and responsible living in a city where there s a drive by shooting every couple of days and working in a medical center where a day doesn t go by without a shooting victim coming into the er i m just a bit skeptical about the value of gun ownership i go to the backcountry to get away from this environment and i don t want to find other people there who insist on bringing the urban environment along with them boom boxes computers or guns well you might as well go naked forget the matches backpack sleeping bag and all the rest that s is a modern convenience a firearm is just a tool as some people won t carry gaiters some people do firearms should be in the same category it should be a personal choice and your factoid about shooting victims in the er count how many come in due to automobile accidents and automobile crimes maybe we should outlaw cars please post flaming responses to rec guns rabid j gever b ham ala marciano pitargue cisco com
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re hr a gun law i can live with in article apr dg rtp dg com meyers leonardo rtp dg com bill meyers writes a establishment of right a person not pro hibited by federal law from receiving a firearm shall have the right to obtain firearms for security and to use fire arms in defense of self family or home so you have the right unless the federal government says you don t i don t think i like this very much this would be much better if it said everyone except those who have been striped of this right by due process of law or some such thing also i don t care for the federal government stepping on states rights regardless of which state right is being stepped on if the constitution doesn t give the feds some power then they have to just shut up about it the only way the feds should have anything to say is if the constitution prohibits localities from infringing on the rkba in which case this bill should just reiterate that the rkba is guaranteed by the constitution and that the feds will take appropriate action if it is infringed chris bartz chrisb natinst com
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re with friends like these l neil smith look if you can figure out a reliable means of keeping guns away from bad people while not interfering with good people i think we d all be for it the problem is the methods we re using now don t do the trick don t manufacture them don t sell them don t import them some guns will get through but far fewer and far less people will die because of them hunting weapons could be allowed of course as long as they are big and bulky and require reloading after a few shots how many times can you shoot at the same animal anyways one assumes they are moving a better solution if the bad people can t be trusted with guns then lock them or knock them off stop punishing good people
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re my gun is like my american express car in article csd newshost stanford edu andy sail stanford edu andy freeman writes in article u uicvm uic edu jason kratz u uicvm uic edu writes all your points are very well taken and things that i haven t considered as i am not really familiar enough with handguns that s not all that kratz doesn t know hell a glock is the last thing that should be switched to the only thing that i know about a glock is the lack of a real safety on it sure there is that little thing in the trigger but that isn t too great of a safety now we know that kratz doesn t understand what a safety is supposed to do he also confuses things he can see with things that exist glocks have multiple safeties even though only one is visible from the outside a safety is supposed to keep the gun from going off unless that s what the user wants with glocks one says i want the gun to go off by pulling the trigger if the safeties it has make that work it has a real safety no matter what kratz thinks andy i agree very much i have read almost every article written about the glock and imo it is probably the safest auto loader made it has the best safty of all jeff cooper s first rule keep your finger off the trigger until you want to shoot if everyone just observed this there would be fewer accidents david n bixler auburn university standard disclaimers apply
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re non lethal alternatives to handguns in article apr mksol dseg ti com pyron skndiv dseg ti com writes ask the brits enough people have been killed by rubber bullets that they now use them under only certain controlled circumstances and they are fired from something that looks like a tear gas launcher there are smaller rubber bullets and pellets for shotguns i understand that they are only intended to be discouragers ie for the snapping but not truly dangerous animal in general they do not seem capable of really stopping someone who wants you or past you they are fired at very low muzzle velocity the ball round is intended for a fps load finally as your mother warned you you can put an eye out with that thing oh ok just wondering i am not a real expert on weapons i was just wondering if they would do the job doug holland
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constitutionality of u s c o you know i was reading u s c and something just did not make sence and i was wondering if someone could help me out say u s c except as provided in paragraph it shall be unlawful for any person to transfer or possess a machinegun well i got to looking in my law dictionary and i found that a person might also be an artificial entity that is created by government and has no rights under the federal constitution so what i don t understand is how a statute like can be enforced on an individual so someone tell me how my government can tell me what i can or cannot possess just passing a law does not make it law everyone knows that laws are constitional until it goes to court so has it ever gone to court not just your run of the mill ok i had it i am guilty put me in jail has anyone ever claimed that they had a right to possess and was told by the supreme court that they didn t have that right brian sheets truck what truck support engineer o o atlas telecom inc raiders of the lost ark brians atlastele com u
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cop kills teenager ok here s something for all of those people who think cops are always more responsible then the rest of the population i found this article in the rocky mountain collegian colorado state university s newspaper suspended police officer arrested in revenge triple homicide providence r i ap a police officer afraid he would be fired for allegedly assaulting a teen ager walked into an auto body shop wher the youth worked said you re going to die and fatally shot him and two others police said a fourth youth was wounded a fifth escaped injury by hiding under a car the wounded youth ran about two blocks to a house after the shooting at about midnight tuesday and called police he was hospitalized in satisfactory condition wednesday suspended police officer robert sabetta of cranston was arrested at gunpoint over three hours after the shooting at wilson s auto enterprises in foster a rural town of about people in northwest rhode island well this just goes to show that cops are capable of snapping just like everyone else now who was it who said only cops should have guns doug holland
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re my gun is like my american express card in u uicvm uic edu jason kratz u uicvm uic edu writes what seems to be happening here is the situation getting totally blown out of proportion in my post i was referring to your regular patrolman in a car cruising around the city vs gang members of course the police have access to the things that you mentioned but do they use tanks and such all of the time of course they don t and that s the point i was trying to make every day when i go out to lunch i always see cops coming in the majority that i see are still carrying revolvers so look in the trunk some time heck look at the dash that funny thing attached with a quick release is a gun the ones in the trunk are better i don t have numbers for chicago but philadelphia police cars carried multiple automatic weapons and thousands of rounds as standard issue in the s not that there is anything wrong with a revolver but if you re a cop that is up against some gang member with a couple of automatics in his coat i mean semi auto handguns you re going to be at a disadvantage even with training what is the nature of this disadvantage if the cop can shoot rounds will do the job against a single opponent especially since the cop has guaranteed backup if the gang member can shoot the extra rounds don t help the only time this difference can matter is if neither can shoot and cops aren t supposed to be throwing lead around like that btw most cops carry multiple guns you re not supposed to know about the second third and so on i have been at a shooting range where gang members were practicing shooting how do we know that they were gang members and not undercover cops or even law abiding menacing minorities btw why the sneer quotes they were actually practicing taking out their guns as quick as possible and shooting at the target and they weren t doing too badly either then the extra rounds won t make any difference so why is it an issue andy
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re my gun is like my american express card in article apr csd newshost stanford edu andy sail stanford edu andy freeman writes in article u uicvm uic edu jason kratz u uicvm uic edu writes all your points are very well taken and things that i haven t considered as i am not really familiar enough with handguns that s not all that kratz doesn t know k guys guys and gals let s lay off jason here though he stepped in it he has been very good so far about admitting he doesn t know what he s talking about and even more stunning is that he seems anmar mirza chief of tranquility my opinions notiu s ciansakgbfbi emt d base lawrence co in legalize explosives assasinatedea n isy tech somewhere out on the politicians prefer naziplutonium networks tech mirza ranch c mon over unarmed peasants presidentfema
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re the pill for deer no hunting in article qk jm sh transfer stratus com cdt sw stratus com c d tavares writes i know a number of ex hci members who have recently become nra members i ve never heard of a single one who has gone the other way i ve been a member of the nra for several years and recently joined hci i wanted to see what they were up to and paid the minimum to get a membership i also sent the nra another would the founding fathers have approved of encryption so strong that the government could not break it
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handgun restrictions i would like to know what restrictions there are on purchasing handguns ie waiting periods background check etc in the states of nevada and oregon thanks bill bill anderson bbs billand tsoft net
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re don t knock the glock was re my gun is like my am ex card in article apr mksol dseg ti com pyron skndiv dseg ti com dillon pyron says some police departments switched to glocks and then started quietly switching many officers back to the old revolvers too many were having accidents partly due to the poor training they received not that glocks require rocket scientists but some cops are baffled by something as complex as the timer on a vcr hell a glock is the last thing that should be switched to the only thing that i know about a glock is the lack of a real safety on it sure there is that little thing in the trigger but that isn t too great of a safety ahem hrumph you have encurred the wrath of glock owners we will beat you with our hammers oooops don t have any seriously there is no difference in the safeties betweena glock and any da revolver intellectually think of the glock as a very high cap revolver ignoring stove pipes misfeeds and all the other bonus exercises that autoloaders give you that is every gun has its safe moment and its dangerous moment if you just learn how to handle it it becomes a lot less dangerous to you dillon pyron the opinions expressed are those of the ti dseg lewisville vax support sender unless otherwise stated when i m here when i m home texans vote no on robin hood we need pyron skndiv dseg ti com solutions not gestures padi dm all very true i m going on what i have read and heard from friends basically the glock is great but i have heard read that it is a lot harder to learn proper handling because of the type of safety that it has i was looking at a glock s w and the s w a couple of weeks ago and the safties on the guns were very different the saftey on the seemed a lot more safe for lack of a better word than the one on the glock of course this could also be a bad thing if you were to pull the gun on somebody you would spend more time fiddling around turning the safety off personally i like the glocks because they are very light and i think they look really cool guess that s why they use them in so many movies but i wouldn t get one as my first semi auto because of the safety i would prefer more training with a traditional semi auto ala colt but of course that s just my opinion jason
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re my gun is like my american express card i hate long postings but this turned out to be rather lengthy overall crime rate it fell just like that acquiring weapons in norway you can buy almost all kinds of weapons in norway but you must have a permit and a good reason to get the permit if i would like to have a handgun i would have to get an gun licence from the police and to be a member of a gun club the police would check my criminal records for any serious crimes and or records of serious mental diseases now if a got my licence i would have to be an active member of the gun club for months before i could collect my gun it s a little like getting a drivers licence isn t it you have to prove that you can drive before you are allowed to use of guns in crimes in norway some crimes are commited with guns that have been in the owners arms for a long time but these are rather the exeption most criminals accuire guns to use them in crimes and mostly short time befor the crime use of knives it is allowed to cary knifes in public but not in your belt or open you americans think it s ok to have a gun but not to carry it open in public rigth scandinavians are aggressive we northeners are not as hot livered as southeners but when we decide to take action we do ask any historian or millitary with an knowledge of europe or ask any german who served in norway in ww individual vs masses yes the individual is more important than the masses but only to some extent your criminal laws are to protect the individuals who makes the masses what happens when the rigths of some individuals affects the rights of all the others the issue i believe the issue is guns and gun legislation we shouldn t mix weapons and items that can serve as one if i lived in amerika i would probably have a gun to defend myselfe in home but should it have to be like that do you think it s wise to sell guns like candy some states do if you believe it s smart neccacery to have drivers licence why do you think it should be free to buy guns disclaim her i m not a pacifist or anti gun i would defend my home loved ones and country but i don t view guns as neccities or toys i have done army service and have used a variaty of weapons but wouldn t want to have one for self defence or because they feel good this is not a signature it s marly a computergenerated text to waste bandwith and to bring down the evil internet thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio no
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re that silly outdated bill was re koresh and miranda scottj magic dml georgetown edu john l scott writes the issue has never been whether tanks were used in detroit in it has been whether they fired their main guns never this is incorrect either you don t read very well or resort to falsehoods in an attempt to make a point at the risk of boring and belaboring the point my claim was the chain was regarding the tanks last used in detroit in the text follows you did not merely claim that tanks were used you claimed that they fired their main guns to suppress sniper fire and that they were quite effective at this indeed when coffman claimed they were only used as apcs i did say i had been told they did fire their main guns you continue to back away from this claim and defend something else that nobody is disputing well the poster who i responded to did dispute the use of tanks post rude of you to call gary coffman a nobody well it s not the main gun gee that s only the entire point are you now going to admit that you were wrong that was the entire point to you what exactly did i claim i ve heard eye witness descriptions of tanks using their main guns to respond to sniper fire quite effectively i wasn t wrong i ve heard those descriptions if you re paying attention i ve mentioned that i saw the tanks with my own eyes but the main gun firing was an account i heard that helps people judge whether or not to kick in the to use your words bullshit filters stating that i claimed this is a falsehood what was it i claimed as fact here s the entire post we haven t used tanks against the black ghettos since detroit correction i know they used tanks in detroit i saw em it was well covered in the news at that time gordon lightfoot mentions it in his song black day in july since you don t dispute that and claim that nobody else does that means i was right i will never read of tanks firing their main guns in detroit in the riots there is simply no way that such an event could have taken place without it being common knowledge even years later the american military firing shells from tanks in american cities on blacks would have been big news so one would suppose some folks think in happened in awesley goes on you can also read of the troops using grenade launchers to fire fragmentary grenades i doubt that as well to fire concussion grenades perhaps to fire tear gas certainly but you would be perfectly willing to let us believe they fired frags wouldn t you since it makes your other claim seem more plausible john again strawman techniques do you feel you re losing it so you have to stretch what i said and knock that down what i read said nothing about what they fired and so i put nothing in there if you need some help let me know and i l take your side of this for a while you re not scoring here you re boring here if tanks had fired their main guns in detroit people would have been screaming about it for the past two and half decades i would know about it glad to know you re such an expert nice to hear some an authority i especially appreciate your basis of knowledge if it had happened you would have know it since you are such an authority you probably know that people did scream about an alleged massive cover up in the number of people killed in the detroit riot some claimed dead others said the offical number is but the concise columbia encyclopedia says it was several i ve also heard some things about that but i won t dare repeat them you d assert that i claimed they were truth unless you also claim that the national guard managed to cover it up taking the tour after the riots it was pretty easy to tell the difference between army and guard troops or so i recall from years ago and i seem to recall it was the army running the tanks so it would have been an army cover up another part of my memories was that while most damaged building were burnt some were in rubble based on what i remember i was and am inclined to believe an old sarge or two if your mind is open enough to believe that well good for you i prefer to live in reality and here in reality i find it hard to believe that those tanks even had any shells much less fired them given the level in destruction in detroit i m quite willing to believe that they did fire their guns now then we ve bored the shit out of anyone whose bothered to read this far and all you ve managed to say is that you don t believe the account i cited john l scott wes
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re my gun is like my american express card in article apr csd newshost stanford edu andy sail stanford edu andy freeman says in article u uicvm uic edu jason kratz u uicvm uic edu all your points are very well taken and things that i haven t considered as i am not really familiar enough with handguns that s not all that kratz doesn t know hell a glock is the last thing that should be switched to the only thing that i know about a glock is the lack of a real safety on it sure there is that little thing in the trigger but that isn t too great of a safety now we know that kratz doesn t understand what a safety is supposed to do he also confuses things he can see with things that exist glocks have multiple safeties even though only one is visible from the outside excuse me but i do know what i safety is supposed to do it s basic purpose not to let the gun fire until you re ready christ i ve known that since i had my first crosman air gun you don t know me so don t make assumptions about what i know and don t know i do know that the glock has multiple safties from reports looking at them at a gun shop and friends who own one a safety is supposed to keep the gun from going off unless that s what the user wants with glocks one says i want the gun to go off by pulling the trigger if the safeties it has make that work it has a real safety no matter what kratz thinks andy from the things i have read heard glocks are always knocked because of the trigger safety they are supposedly harder to learn to use properly every article that i have read can t be wrong about the damn thing and don t ask me to quote my sources because i don t keep a ton of gun magazines and or rec guns articles laying around boy you can t make a simple statement on here without someone getting right on your ass no wonder why there are so many problems in the world everyone takes everything just a little too seriously by the way i m not going to reply to any of this stuff anymore as someone made the good point that this discussion is getting too close to r g and yes i know that i had something to do with that jason
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re newspapers censoring gun advertisements andy freeman andy sail stanford edu wrote newspaper ad censorship san fran independent san fran examiner san jose mercury news evans ave th st ridder park dr san fran ca san fran ca san jose ca hmmm the sj merc carries targemasters west national shooting club reeds sportshop sportsmens supply and big ads they all sell guns no they don t have any adds like in shotgun news if they won t at least run the current adds i swear i ll cancel my subscription and end to cash to the crpa rob p
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re don t knock the glock was re my gun is like my am ex card in article u uicvm uic edu jason kratz u uicvm uic edu writes all very true i m going on what i have read and heard from friends basically the glock is great but i have heard read that it is a lot harder to learn proper handling because of the type of safety that it has i was looking at a glock s w and the s w a couple of weeks ago and the safties on the guns were very different the saftey on the seemed a lot more safe for lack of a better word than the one on the glock of course this could also be a bad thing if you were to pull the gun on somebody you would spend more time fiddling around turning the safety off personally i like the glocks because they are very light and i think they look really cool guess that s why they use them in so many movies but i wouldn t get one as my first semi auto because of the safety i would prefer more training with a traditional semi auto ala colt but of course that s just my opinion jason at the risk of starting the my gun is better than yours flame war i must disagree there is no secret in handling a glock in fact it is often chosen besides its other merits because it shoots like a revolver does basically it can limit the training time read budget due to the fact there are no external safties other than the trigger hence less training time required smith wesson among other types are chosen due to the fact taht they do have the external safties hammer drop as well as mag drop which if properly used have saved many lives when mr bad snatched the gun from the officer and tried to shoot said officer the gun was on safe and would not fire this point had been made in many articles in various gun magazines if fact one author can t remember who staged a little test where he had a revolver and a s w on safe laying on a table and asked people with little firearms experience to on his signal grab the gun and shoot a target he timed the people using each gun the revolver times were pretty close but some of the times with the s w were in minutes or the person just gave up because they could not figure out the saftey you don t often see colt autos issued due to the light trigger which can be accidentally fired in a stress situation opening the issuing city county etc to lawsuits bad press etc of course any problem can be overcome with enough training but such training is not always available to budget crunched departments i know if i were a cop i would want something like a s w just for the off chance of the gun getting taken away the safety doesn t guarantee that mr bad won t figure it out and shoot me but it could buy enough time to draw a second gun and shoot mr bad before it s too late don t think i am too biassed here just because i have had glocks in my possession at one time because i have had a as well in fact it was my first handgun remember the ultimate safety is you the operator and no safety is going to stop an negligent discharge note i don t say accidental if you break the rules of gun handling as per the part of being light weight and looking cool i agree i wouldn t rule it out as a first purchase just my tax steve syck syck miller cs uwm edu
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re insane gun toting wackos unite anyone who worries about his own gun should not have one if you carry any pistol with a empty chamber and safety the chances of it going off are about zero unless you sit it on top of a lite stove for a couple of minutes or put it in a fire what doesn t kill us makes us stronger spoken by many a t hikers kilo delta four zulu papa uniform kd zpu
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re proper gun control what is proper gun control in article c jatz g cbnewsc cb att com rats cbnewsc cb att com morris the cat writes let s prohibit arms carrying by police when off duty or if they make the assertion that well i need to maintain my gun let s make it regulation that they can carry an unloaded firearm home that it s only fair that they be just as helpless as poor schmuck coming home from his computer operator job nra director ex san jose cop leroy pyle states in the latest swat magazine that anti cops better watch out for this schism between rkba folks and the police he asks the rhetorical question of what if what s left of the gun lobby starts demanding the disarmament of the police well i guess anti gun cops who think only they should be armed along with the wealthy and politically connected should be made to realize that screwing can cut in ways they have yet to imagine we all know this will never happen because the police are under the wings of government they will always be considered more important than citizens government pens pencils and paper are considered more important than citizens i think we have a problem with our government
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re my gun is like my american express card in article cmm thomasp surt ifi uio no thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio no writes overall crime rate it fell just like that two questions when was this and do you have the relevant numbers please note this is not in any way an indication i don t believe you or that you re not correct but when the drop occured is relevant acquiring weapons in norway you can buy almost all kinds of weapons in norway but you must have a permit and a good reason to get the permit if i would like to have a handgun i would have to get an gun licence from the police and to be a member of a gun club the primary objection beyond ones based on the ideal of rkba that it is simply not something the government should do is that it makes guns a play thing and tool of the rich and connected it discriminates against the poor is self defense considered appropriate and if so under what conditions are you allowed for instance to get a gun for protection if you re going to be carrying a very large sum of money on a regular basis or have been threatened the police would check my criminal records for any serious crimes and or records of serious mental diseases this has been suggested in the u s and generally supported among gun owners what many object to is that many if not most proposals contain a sort of gotcha clause which allows an arbitrary denial even if you qualify in every way now if a got my licence i would have to be an active member of the gun club for months before i could collect my gun it s a little like getting a drivers licence isn t it you have to prove that you can drive before you are allowed to at this point it should be pointed out that in general a driver s licence in the u s is for the most part nothing like its european counterpart i understand getting one is far more difficult there than here in the u s it s a joke but my usual objection is that you re discussing two different things for instance in the u s a driver s license is a permit to operate a motor vehicle on a public road it is not necessary to own one or to operate it on private property that is the ability to require driving permits is generally considered to arise from the government s legitimate power to enact reasonable regulations for behavior on public lands a permit to own an automobile for instance which is far closer an analogy would be a much harder thing to get past legally since it wouldn t be based on making regulations on public property but in restricting activity on private property use of guns in crimes in norway some crimes are commited with guns that have been in the owners arms for a long time but these are rather the exeption most criminals accuire guns to use them in crimes and mostly short time befor the crime use of knives it is allowed to cary knifes in public but not in your belt or open you americans think it s ok to have a gun but not to carry it open in public rigth this varies widely one thing i think europeans have a difficult time with is that the u s has fifty unique jurisdictions where the laws from one state to another can be as radically different as from one country in europe to another some places allow open carry of both guns and knives some allow concealed some prohibit both or allow one or the other and it can be either a state or local restriciton individual vs masses yes the individual is more important than the masses but only to some extent your criminal laws are to protect the individuals who makes the masses what happens when the rigths of some individuals affects the rights of all the others the question must be asked is the right of this individual affecting the rights of this other individual what we usually get is that the rights of this group meaning some individuals within this group here defined as people who own guns are adversely affecting the rights of some other group if for instance bob were using his gun to attack steve you d have a point but essentially what we re discussing is that becuase some person who qualifies as a member of the group people who own guns then some third person perhaps in another time zone is told that their being a member of that group is taking away somebody else s rights it s like trying to punish all newspapers for the libel commited by one the issue i believe the issue is guns and gun legislation the issue is crime violence and murder the question is to what extent guns and gun legislation impact those we shouldn t mix weapons and items that can serve as one if i lived in amerika i would probably have a gun to defend myselfe in home but should it have to be like that of course not it would be nice if we didn t have to fear that other people might get it into their twisted little minds to hurt us but currently we don t have that option nor do i expect we will do you think it s wise to sell guns like candy some states do no state does in any case there s a limit to which the state may enforce it s wisdom on me freedom in general is an unwise concept if you pre emptively restrict everything which might be unwise then freedom becomes a meaningless concept if you believe it s smart neccacery to have drivers licence why do you think it should be free to buy guns i ll raise my hand against driver s licenses as currently implemented they re a waste of time and little more than revanue generation for the state and ignored by a startling number of drivers it does not guarantee a level of skill any higher than is necessary to get your car on the road and get yourself or somebody else killed or a knowledge of traffic laws beyond what any ten year old will have picked up riding around in his parents car but as i mentioned they re two different things david veal univ of tenn div of cont education info services group pa utkvm utk edu i still remember the way you laughed the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft i m beginning to think you don t love me anymore weird al
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re hr a gun law i can live with in article apr dg rtp dg com meyers leonardo rtp dg com bill meyers writes a bill to establish the right to obtain firearms for security and to use firearms in defense of self family or home and to provide for the enforcement of such right maybe i m too religious but when i see a bill to establish a right i wince keep in mind what the law giveth the law can taketh away cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
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re constitutionality of u s c o in article apr atlastele com brians atlastele com brian sheets writes you know i was reading u s c and something just did not make sence and i was wondering if someone could help me out say u s c except as provided in paragraph it shall be unlawful for any person to transfer or possess a machinegun well i got to looking in my law dictionary and i found that a person might also be an artificial entity that is created by government and has no rights under the federal constitution so what i don t understand is how a statute like can be enforced on an individual so someone tell me how my government can tell me what i can or cannot possess just passing a law does not make it law sorry but i really can t figure out what you re trying to say above everyone knows that laws are constitional until it goes to court not exactly an unconstitutional act is not law it confers no rights it imposes no duties affords no protection it creates no office it is in legal contemplation as inoperative as though it had never been passed norton vs shelby county us p the general rule is that an unconstitutional statute though having the form and name of law is in reality no law but is wholly void and ineffective for any purpose since unconstitutionality dates from the time of it s enactment and not merely from the date of the decision so branding it no on is bound to obey an uncontitutional law and no courts are bound to enforce it am jur d sec late d sec so has it ever gone to court not just your run of the mill ok i had it i am guilty put me in jail has anyone ever claimed that they had a right to possess and was told by the supreme court that they didn t have that right automatic weapons no the supreme court has never heard such a case cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
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aclu policies aclu official policies policy for example opposes rating systems for motion pictures industry sponsored ratings systems create the potential for constraining the creative process and thus contracting the marketplace of ideas despite the stated goal of providing guidance to parents experience has shown that ratings inevitably have serious chilling effects on freedom of expression in regards to the pledge of allegiance the aclu states in its policy the insertion of the words under god into the pledge of allegiance is a violation of the constitutional principle of separation of church and state policy states that military conscription under any circumstances is a violation of civil liberties and constitutional guarantees the aclu objects to the draft even during wartime because of the anti democratic power it gives government to wage war without support of the people policy states the aclu calls for a broad based inquiry into war crimes within the widest possible definition of war crimes against humanity and crimes against the peace focusing upon the actions of the united states military and other combatants against the people of south vietnam laos cambodia and north vietnam policy states the aclu recognizes that us government reliance upon nuclear weaponry as a dominant element of foreign and domestic policy while propounded as a defense of democracy is in fact a great threat to civil liberties four decades of adherence to this policy has fundamentally altered the nature of our constitutional democratic process and poses a paramount threat to our civil liberties policy objects to roadblocks where drivers are stopped for sobriety tests because they violate fourth amendment principles policy states the following on criminal sentencing the most appropriate correctional approach is reintegrating the offender into the community and the goals of reintegration are furthered much more readily by working with the offender within the community than by incarceration probation should be authorized by the legislature in every case exceptions to the principle are not favored and any exceptions if made should be limited to the most serious of offenses such as murder or treason bill vojak vojak icebucket stortek com nra ila colorado firearms coalition the cbs nightly propaganda with dan rather rather not the cbs nightly propaganda with dan rather rather biased
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upi news release upi washington dc update desk for the past several months the clinton administration has been stymied by mixed signals coming from the economy while most leading indicators has shown an apparent improvement in the economy there has been no corresponding improvement in the area of jobs creation the unemployment figures seem stalled at the mark last month in an effort to understand this problem president clinton appointed a blue ribbon panel to try to resolve the apparent conflicting economic signals this panel was chaired by vice president gore today the panel released their results providing a shocking conclusion it s the guns vice president gore said apparently nra members and other gun nuts are purchasing firearms at in record numbers pulling the economy out of the recession their buying them five times faster than ever before and stockpiling left and right the vice president said however since many domestic firearm and ammunition manufacturers have been experiencing hard times during the past few years including several declarations of bankruptcy by many leading american gun makers they have not rushed to increase hiring to meet the new demand we want to see if this run will continue before hiring more people said the president of colt industries as long as clinton is in office we suspect it will he added in response to this new information president clinton announced a new gun control measure to be introduced into congress this session it s called the ban one a month gun control bill under the terms of this law every make and model of all firearms will be written on individual index cards the cards will all be put in a big hat and the president will draw one card every month sixty days later that gun will be banned from any further manufacture importation or sale in this country except to the politically connected and to members of the national police force the president said this law will benefit america two ways when the gun of the month is announced every thirty days the gun nuts will run out and buy thousands of them boosting the economy even more in addition over the long run we will get all of these icky evil guns off of the street he also announce the appointment of sarah brady to oversee this program citing her honesty and unbiased view on the subject of gun control senators metzenbaum deconcini feinstein and boxer have proposed an amendment to the bill which would add additional index cards containing caliber designations for all know ammunitions their stockpiling stockpiling stockpiling screamed metzenbaum during a press conference at the national headquarters of handgun control inc senators simon metzenbaum and moyenhan also introduced an amendment that would make all guns illegal to possess once the last card has been drawn from the hat senator simon was quoted as saying first we ll fuck em then we ll kick em out of bed in the morning during a press conference he held in the second floor mens restroom of the senate building he of course was referring to the fact that he would allow the people to purchase the guns to help the economy but would require the batf to seize all of the guns in america sometime in the year after all of the cards have been drawn the head of the batf responded by saying we will have to see if this thing in waco is over by then we may be too busy to seize all those guns us house representatives pat schroeder and david skaggs of colorado declared this proposed law as being reasonable gun control which won t affect anybodys constitutional right to own sporting guns end article for the humor impaired bill vojak vojak icebucket stortek com nra ila colorado firearms coalition the cbs nightly propaganda with dan rather rather not the cbs nightly propaganda with dan rather rather biased
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re gritz jbs liberty lobby larouche christic insitute libertarian in article qanj d usenet ins cwru edu cj cleveland freenet edu john w redelfs writes how many are aware that the gun control act of is a verbatim translation of a nazi gun control law passed shortly before the holocaust for those of you who think i m being paranoid in asking these questions pray that you are right unchecked democracies usually end in dictatorship remember germany was a democracy when hitler rose to power can we be absolutely certain nothing like that could happen today i can t speak for the organizations you cited but everywhere you look in our society and government one can see the relentless movement toward one world government the fact that the media demeans such charished values as patriotism nationalism and protectionism are some of the clues the fact that we are sapping the economic strength of americans to prop up a former and possibly future enemy is just another the fact the words like community of nations global village and international business are in vogue are others international corporations are destroying our identy and economy and the propaganda they are playing through the media and government is over powering our ability to resist our porous border both people and trade are an indiciation that we have already lost a great deal of sovergnty the bottome line is that the single most evil aspect of one world government is that you have nowhere to run to and history has proven that would be a disaster beware the liberal and the conservative and the moderate think for yourself
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re my gun is like my american express card in article cmm thomasp surt ifi uio no thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio no writes if i would like to have a handgun i would have to get an gun licence from the police and to be a member of a gun club the police would check my criminal records for any serious crimes and or records of serious mental diseases now if a got my licence i would have to be an active member of the gun club for months before i could collect my gun so like what do you do during those six months to be active my town has a similar requirement and it s rather stupid before you can buy a handgun you have to be an active member of a gun club well how active can you be without a gun chief most gun owners feel a check of criminal records for crimes and mental disorders would be a very good thing if it couldn t be abused by the government but every time this is proposed there is always some trapdoor by which the government can deny your purchase even if you are perfectly qualified to own a gun and we oppose this it s a little like getting a drivers licence isn t it you have to prove that you can drive before you are allowed to since the fatal accident rate for licensed automobile drivers in the us is around times the fatal accident rate of largely unlicensed gun owners i d think twice before using this analogy besides the problem is criminal use of guns not accidents there are about criminal uses of guns in the us every year but only accidents i don t think it s necessary to spend a lot of energy making sure a criminal can shoot a gun before he gets one just like the check most gun owners feel positively about requiring safety courses if they couldn t be abused by the government but they already have one state doesn t hold the courses another doesn t fund them a third holds them only once a year with limited attendence to those with political connections is this fair most criminals accuire guns to use them in crimes and mostly short time befor the crime and how many of them acquire these guns from legal retail outlets how many are borrowed stolen smuggled bought on the black market use of knives it is allowed to cary knifes in public but not in your belt or open you americans think it s ok to have a gun but not to carry it open in public rigth some states allow only open carry some allow only concealed carry some allow both some allow both but require licenses for concealed carry all you can say is if one of these modes has a clear advantage over another in terms of reducing crime or any other public good then state legislators someplace are doing exactly the wrong thing which means that they really don t have any objective reasons for these laws other than their preferences a bad way to govern scandinavians are aggressive we northeners are not as hot livered as southeners but when we decide to take action we do hot livered i love that expression here we say hot headed individual vs masses yes the individual is more important than the masses but only to some extent your criminal laws are to protect the individuals who makes the masses what happens when the rigths of some individuals affects the rights of all the others typically the only criminals who can affect the rights of all the other people are criminals in government offices the rest of our criminals affect the rights of only one or a few people at a time and they do this during the commission of a crime possession of a gun by someone hurts no one else it is when they do something violent with that gun that the crime occurs of course it is a crime for a felon or ex felon to possess a gun but we don t feel it is right to treat common citizens who have lived good lives as if they were just pre felons waiting to commit crimes we shouldn t mix weapons and items that can serve as one i don t understand this sentence if i lived in amerika i would probably have a gun to defend myselfe in home but should it have to be like that life isn t fair i shouldn t need a fire extinguisher either or flood and theft insurance or to lock the doors of my house and car but pining for a better world won t do anything to address what i have to do to live in this one do you think it s wise to sell guns like candy some states do none of ours i m sure if you believe it s smart neccacery to have drivers licence why do you think it should be free to buy guns frankly i m not sure i know what good a driver s license does anyone either the people who drive safely never use it and the people who drive drunk drive without it however a car is a good tool but not one that protects my right to life i rank the right to life somewhere north of the right to travel freely i m not a pacifist or anti gun i would defend my home loved ones and country but i don t view guns as neccities or toys i have done army service and have used a variaty of weapons but wouldn t want to have one for self defence or because they feel good the question is not whether or not you want to own guns personally it s whether or not you think that all people should be forced to do as you do i don t have any problem with someone who says they would never own a gun i do have a problem with someone who says i should be prevented from owning one too cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
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re long gun hearings day in massachusetts april this is a co authored report from two of us who were there gun owners action league our state rifle association started the day with a rally in the secluded courtyard behind the statehouse at it was looking sparse about people until the speaker began whereupon about more people followed the loudspeakers from wherever they had been lost and filled out the area something proud mike yacino of goal spoke one of his best throwaway lines was to remind us that all of us holders of carry permits there had been checked and certified clear of all crimes by the state while the people in the statehouse behind us only had to be certified clean of election fraud to hold their jobs nancy snow and amos hamburger were busy handing out id buttons and sheets describing all the bills to be presented at the hearings and telling people where to find their own representatives and in too many cases who they were mike warned us that the committee was going to suspend its rules and discuss a bill that hadn t made it onto the official list it seems a delegation of students from simon s rock of bard college alma mater of wayne lo who shot up the place with an sks late last year was being bussed in to testify for a bill to ban all sales of firearms or ammo to anyone who is not a state resident the hearings were originally scheduled in the large gardner auditorium at but that had been pre empted by the governor s hearings on the framingham eight women in prison for killing abusive husbands and seeking release so we had until to buttonhole our representatives after which we would be squashed into an inadequate hearing room one of my representatives staffers was somewhat offensively smarmy he said oh it must be gun hearings day again the gun lobby is always so organized every year i got a little pissed and replied i m not from the gun lobby i m from your district at your second reporter arrived in time to notice a demonstration going on in front of the statehouse where the pro gunners weren t randy price from the tv news was there in his mirror reflective shades talking to one of the anti gun types and several simon s rock anti gun close the loophole protestors earlier randy had covered the goal rally the room we had been assigned seated about remember there were about gun owners there plus another students and teachers from bard one of us had already reserved a seat the other never got closer than the atrium outside and there was a crowd behind him a cop took up station at the entrance and prevented the rest of the crowd from coming in soon after the debate started a loudspeaker was set up outside in the hall for the benefit of everyone else everyone who was there inside and outside got to sign up on a sheet saying what their position was on which bills most of us signed up to support goal s position on all bills first because of their time constraints public officials got to testify and first up was the bill that nobody had seen the students had some curfew i guess currently massachusetts law allows a non resident to purchase long guns or ammo from a local dealer provided he complies with the laws of his own state previously the law was similar but applied only to non residents from states adjoining massachusetts the simon s rock folks called the current law a loophole and wanted it closed two of their reps spoke about wayne lo and his sks assault rifle the second one hodgekiss a co sponsor had done his homework so well that he kept confusing montana wayne lo s home state with missouri and became belligerent when about five gun owners in the gallery corrected him after his second muff carr from gloucester claimed that the new bill would put the law back the way it was but he was lying the new bill allows purchases by non residents of adjoining states only if they have licensing in their own state as strong as that in massachusetts since none of them do that s that some of the things these two said were really offensive in some of these other states anyone can buy a gun as long as he s breathing oooooo we have some very very good gun laws in massachusetts if only the other states would adopt the same type of laws we wouldn t be having this situation but they won t naughty naughty next up was boston city councilman albert dapper o neill he was there to testify pro gun but in some ways he was a liability he s reasonably elderly and tends to wander and repeat himself plus he s almost a caricature of a law n order politician he badmouthed the aclu said violent criminals should be executed and that if he were judge he d give arrestees their last rights pun intended on the spot at which many of the gun owners applauded which bothered me he said that all the proposed gun restrictions were a step in the right direction for the criminals he said this four times two of the bills under consideration would allow police to rescind a ccw or fid and confiscate all your guns if someone had filed a restraining order against you note that the filing of a restraining order requires no warrant no hearing no evidence and no conviction just an accusation senator barrett of reading testified in favor of it and patronized the pro gunners there several times by saying i m sure all the gun owners here will agree with me that we have to get these weapons out of the hands of people that our courts have convicted i haven t seen such a disgustingly disingenuous performance since nixon whined that he wasn t a crook barrett also spoke in favor of the bill making the fid card renewable every five years instead of permanent as it is now the stated purpose is to remove fid cards from those who have become ineligible revenue has nothing to do with it yeah right apparently some congressmen think we re stupid enough to swallow the argument that it s preferable to process million renewals every cycle in the vague hope of catching a recent felon than to simply take the goddamn card away from a criminal at conviction time as usual hassle the law abiding instead of the crook the two co chairs of the committee were rep caron and sen jujuga jujuga didn t say much he was a co sponsor of both restraining order bills but caron struck me as a sharp guy that wouldn t let any bad logic or lies on the part of either side to go unchallenged he was a co sponsor of one of the restraining order bills as well one of the younger reps on the committee forgot his name was vociferously pro gun somewhat embarrassingly so his heart was in the right place but his arguments seemed to be confined to every year it s the same damn thing you come in here with this crap it s nice to have a friend on the committee but he could have been more effective at about it was clear that the hall jam couldn t continue someone came out of another meeting hall and yelled at the cop because the loudspeaker was disturbing their meeting so the loudspeaker was disconnected so they found a bigger hall upstairs one of us had to leave to catch his charter bus and so missed the public testimony the other got a seat this time caron began by talking about how he got his fid years ago left the state and then returned without notifying them of his address change he complained that the state record system was not up to date and that his pd back in his city of birth still thought he lived there great quote if you purchase a gun today it will not get into the state computer system until this was also an argument he used against the renewable fid card testimony was heard from several battered women one of whom had been attacked by some guy in his s who had an fid card because he got it when he was or thereabouts they used a lot of emotion and said how they were scared of these men a staffer of attorney general harshbarger testified in favor of this anti gun bill saying how restraining orders were granted last year and how these women needed to be protected caron noted that a restraining order was granted for days and then a hearing was held to determine whether the order would be extended to a year he asked whether she would be satisfied if the fid were revoked at the time of this hearing rather than after the initial issuance of the fid she gave some long rambling circumlocution in response then testimony against the bill was heard mike yacino who looks something like einstein got up and made the point that restraining orders were issued on too little evidence that judges like to issue restraining orders just to let things cool off no matter who they think is right man or woman and that the hearings for restraining orders are lightning sessions with little time to consider facts atty karen mcnutt spoke with him a few times during his testimony other pro gunners got up to testify one said he had had to file a restraining order against a tenant to clear her out and that she countered by filing one against him he noted that this would have allowed the state to confiscate his guns if the new bill became law one of the junior reps noted that this is america and we have to be certain that individual rights are respected senator jujuga reiterated this saying that people who abuse smaller people can go to hell as far as i care but we have to be careful about equating conviction with a restraining order point and match senator another pro gunner got up and testified that he didn t know his citizenship expired every years and that a driver s license was a privilege not a right like the right to keep and bear arms a third got up and said the problem was with the criminal justice system and argued in favor of a death penalty bill and public hangings senator jujuga said he had himself tried to get a death penalty bill passed and joking responded that he too favored public hangings the speaker then responded i ll make you a deal you get me the rope and i ll tie the noose next came public testimony on the simon s rock bill a teacher testified that she had been the teacher of wayne lo and that he wouldn t have been able to shoot people inside a building while he was outside without his evil gun she said that the loophole should be closed to prevent something like this from ever happening again four or five other kids testified in favor of this bill one of spilling tears for the good legislators one of the students actually shot by wayne lo was also there many of them had t shirts on saying as long as one person can buy a gun in anger none of us are safe support gun control the committee was reluctant to grill or correct the kids except for caron who corrected one student who had claimed that anyone could apply for an fid only residents can get fid s he said how much do you want to bet that this kid had no idea he had been conned into testifying for a bill that would cut out of staters completely off yacino and mcnutt spoke again this time noting that the bill as written would affect both ammo and all guns possessed by out of staters karen also noted that hunters in ct nh and vt could be put away for a year if they wandered across the ma boundary somewhere in the woods and got challenged by game wardens yacino underscored the fact that lo could have gotten an fid as a resident student and hell even an ccw as he had no criminal or mental record one junior rep was upset that it would take ma residents longer to buy a gun than out of staters and thought it was elitist another caron said that we need the protection of preventing non residents from buying without an fid because only two other states in the union had fid type cards so complying with all the laws of one s home state was not enough one pro gun speaker replied that this resembled a mother watching her son in a marching band and exclaiming everyone s out of step but johnny all the bard college people were filing out as the pro gun testimony for this bill was made and thus only pro gunners were around when the other bills came under consideration the main bills remaining and goal s position were o h and four others notify police chiefs so they can pull licenses when a holder is convicted strongly supported o h require trigger locks on all handguns sold opposed o h require trigger locks on all loaded firearms strongly opposed o h allow every municipality to enact their own gun laws opposed o h fund bullet proof vests for municipal police supported o s state constitutional amendment for the rkba supported o several on police discretion in the issuance of fid cards opposed o several altering non resident license conditions supported o h ban damn near all guns everywhere in the state guess some of these took only seconds to consider as the remaining pro gunners raised hands in unison either for or against them mike yacino noted that besides the danger in screwing with a trigger lock on a loaded gun that bill would make it illegal for a licensee to carry his concealed handgun unless it were locked caron blew right through h when he saw that we opposed it again he brought up the state s archaic records capability and said this would create hundreds of different licensing systems the session ran late since it was the last scheduled hearing it could not be adjourned until everyone who wanted to had testified it ended at about cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet
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re hr a gun law i can live with cdt sw stratus com c d tavares writes in article apr dg rtp dg com meyers leonardo rtp dg com bill meyers writes a bill to establish the right to obtain firearms for security and to use firearms in defense of self family or home and to provide for the enforcement of such right maybe i m too religious but when i see a bill to establish a right i wince keep in mind what the law giveth the law can taketh away cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet i don t think your objection is beyond the bounds of rationality the right mentioned in the bill is already established under the second amendment the bill should be reworded to reaffirm the second amendment rkba and then establish the procedures for redress through the federal court system the right already exists and is already embodied in our constitution aaron arc cco caltech edu
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re clinton wants national id card aka ussr style internal passport in article c jif i n boi hp com slack boi hp com david slack writes the idea of the card is bull in and of its self but i m curious to know do they plan on making it a requirement to always have it on you or is it only going to be required to be presented when trying to ge medical aid this at least has already been determined the blue cross medical coverage for all federal employees is a good model for a future national system to get emergency medical care anyone so insured must always carry their blue cross card before entering a hospital you must notify blue cross or they will refuse to pay your bills in an emergency where you must be treated before notifying them you must inform them within hours or if you are unable to do so for medical reasons the hospital must failing to do so within hours means they will not cover the hospitalization in you need your card to notify them and without the card the hospital certainly wouldn t know they had to therefore you are required to carry the card at all times or do without emergency medical coverage frank crary cu boulder
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re upi news release cathy smith posting for l neil smith dear bill very very good you made my whole day with this post thanks a lot l neil smith my opinions are of course my own
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re my gun is like my american express card in article apr csd newshost stanford edu andy sail stanford edu andy freeman says i have been at a shooting range where gang members were practicing shooting how do we know that they were gang members and not undercover cops or even law abiding menacing minorities btw why the sneer quotes we know because the area that the gun shop shooting range is in is right on the border of the west side of chicago that is a gang infested area there are many many bad things going on in that area also i have several friends that live very close to that area who have had problems with some of these folks by the way where did i say that they were minorities do you think that only minorities have gangs not so as far as the quotes are concerned it was totally obvious that they weren t just practicing for marksmanship i don t know about you but i have never seen anyone else practice marksmanship by taking their gun out of their coat as fast as possible and start shooting if you would have been there andy it would ve been obvious to you too of course it might not have been who knows all i do know is that i was there i live here and i know that they were gang bangers when you live here long enough it becomes pretty easy to spot them via gang colors gang signs etc one last thing my sister is a social worker she makes it her point to find these things out gang signs colors etc because it is in her best interest to do so she is nice enough to let me know these things so i can watch out for myself as i live right on the border of the west side of the city enough said jason
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re ban all firearms in article qc sa obl pandora sdsu edu chiu io nosc mil francis chiu writes a note on the lighter side i ve noticed most gun banners some of my friends included are the one who make comments that indicate they are more likely to resort to violent so are they really banning guns so they wouldn t end up shooting someone else could be it is also likely that since they feel they are more likely to resort to violence they have a hard time believing that anyone else would react otherwise david olson dlo drutx att com well i did say we ll put it out and we ll put it out when we can but i don t know what we can put out or when we can put it out george stephanopolous
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re the pill for deer no hunting in article apr gnv ifas ufl edu jrm gnv ifas ufl edu writes the vast majority get through life without ever having to own use or display a firearm given society as we now experience it it seems safer to get rid of as many guns as possible considering that the uses include self defense hunting target shooting and collecting i don t buy the notion that the vast majority of people don t own use or display a firearm but let s say your contention is true what s the point of get ting rid of as many guns as possible if they weren t being used anyway david olson dlo drutx att com well i did say we ll put it out and we ll put it out when we can but i don t know what we can put out or when we can put it out george stephanopolous
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re newspapers censoring gun advertisements i don t know what traders is claiming but it appears to me that the oakland tribune has censored gun ads in the past likewise for the san francisco chronicle and i have never seen a gun ad in the san francisco examiner specifically about a year ago on thursdays when traders placed its ads the chron ad would not have any graphics representing any handgun sale though text could list it the trib would run a graphic of a handgun the examiner would not have a traders ad at all over the past year while oakland politicians have made a lot of noise about measures to fight crime the trib stopped taking the traders ad then started publishing it but without any handgun graphic then stopped then started since the trib was sold some months ago it has not had the traders ad during one of these non ad interludes a traders employee told me that the trib had refused to take their ads yes the usual chron thursday ad was there today with graphics representing rifles safes etc as usual joan v
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re insane gun toting wackos unite do you know how many deaths each year are caused by self inflicted gun shot wounds by people wearing thigh holsters there are roughly fatal firearms related accidents each year the large majority involve rifles and shotgun there are under fatal handgun accidents each year i really doubt all of those occur while the pistol is holstered so the number of self inflicted gunshot wounds by people wearing thigh holsters is probably well under per year if you fall for example and land on the handgun or cause a sudden blow the gun will discharge handguns designs have included a hammer block since around or earlier this is a metal part which physically seperates the cartridge and the firing pin even under impact the gun cannot fire the hammer block is connected to the trigger and is pulled out of the way as the trigger is pulled as a result modern pistols can fire only if the trigger is pulled or in some cases if they are cocked by hand and then dropped the number of people killed in this manner far outweighs the number of deaths caused by animal attacks or wacko attacks combined i don t know about animal attacks but there are murders each year and under die in the manner you suggest if only of the murders were killings by wacko s you would be wrong worse there are also rapes and aggravated assaults each year these numbers make violent attacks and preventing them thousands of times more significant than the accidents you are worried about these figures by the way are from the fbi s uniform crime report for i ll stop by a library tomorrow and look at the national crime victimization survey which is more specific about where and when the crimes occured frank crary cu boulder
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deconcini ten years ago and today dennis deconcini in these and similar areas the bureau has violated not only the dictates of common sense but of u s c sec which was intended to prevent secret lawmaking by administrative bodies these practices amply documented in hearings before this sub committee leave little doubt that the bureau has disregarded rights guaranteed by the constitution and laws of the united states it has trampled upon the second amendment by chilling exercise of the right to keep and bear arms by law abiding citizens it has offended the fourth amendment by unreasonably search ing and seizing private property it has ignored the fifth amendment by taking private property without just compensation and by entrapping honest citizens with out regard for their right to due process of law the rebuttal presented to the subcommittee by the bureau was utterly unconvincing richard davis speaking on behalf of the treasury department asserted vaguely that the bureau s priorities were aimed at prosecuting willful violators particularly felons ille gally in possession and at confiscating only guns actually likely to be used in crime he also asserted that the bureau has recently made great strides toward achieving these priorities no documen tation was offered for either of these assertions in hearings before batf s appropriations subcommittee however expert evidence was submitted establishing that approximately percent of batf gun prosecutions were aimed at ordinary citizens who had neither criminal intent nor knowledge but were enticed by agents into unknowning technical violations exerpt from th congress d session committee print t h e r i g h t t o k e e p a n d b e a r a r m s report of the subcommittee on the constitution of the committee on the judiciary united states senate ninety seventh congress second session february printed for the use of the committee on the judiciary u s government printing office o washington letter to constituent april thank you for contacting me regarding the bureau of alcohol tobacco and firearms atf which is the federal law enforcement agency with jurisdiction over firearms violations and regulations it has been my experience as chairman of the appropriations subcommittee on treasury postal service and general government which funds atf that atf is one of the most competent and highly professional law enforcement agencies in the federal government the agents of atf have proven their value again and again in successful legal operations to curb the unlawful possession and use of firearms especially in the area of drug related crimes it enforces the armed career criminal act which calls for mandatory minimum sentences for repeat felons using firearms to carry out an illegal activity the bureau has made itself a key component in preventing gang related violence also both by educating at risk youth to the dangers of gang membership as well a s by depriving known gangs from access to weapons the waco texas case involved the execution of search warrants by atf on the branch davidians for illegal firearms and explosives possession automatics semi automatics and machine guns in addition to bombs and other explosives in virtually every gun case atf is asked to trace weapons through its national firearms tracing center where they keep all dealer and federal firearms license information atf is the federal governments firearms expert and routinely works with state and local police to execute warrants atf working with state and local law enforcement in texas and the u s attorneys office felt it was necessary to execute these warrants in order to legally establish that a crime had been committed and conclude a long and thorough investigation of illegal gun and explosives held by members of the branch davidians in addition atf carefully selected a sunday morning knowing from their source inside that the men would be separated from the women and children and not in the area where it was known that the illegal weapons were stored as you may be aware by now vernon howell a k a david koresh spiritual leader of the branch davidians was tipped of the impending execution of the search warrants unfortunately atf lost the element of surprise and the cult was able to arm themselves and prepare for atfs entry into the compound once a hostage situation presented itself the atf asked the fbi to become involved since the fbi is skilled in hostage negotiations in addition and military tanks were brought in due to the serious nature of the situation and firepower of the branch davidians based on what i have learned about atf s role in the branch davidian raid i believe the agency acted responsibly i am however deeply saddened by the loss of lives of the law enforcement agents who attempted to enter the compound and the civilian members of the cult i fully expect the department of treasury to conduct a thorough evaluation with representatives from law enforcement outside the department to be headed by the assistant secretary for enforcement in addition atf will conduct its own review of the waco operation i look forward to reviewing the findings of the evaluators and hope this situation in waco will be brought to a quick and peaceful conclusion sincerely dennis deconcini chairman subcommittee on treasury postal service and general government april larry cipriani l v cipriani att com
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crimestrike alert for texas fellow texans and members of crime strike in texas crime strike in texas has a loosely knit coalition with most victims rights groups in texas we ask that you write a letter protesting the release of the following murderer this letter should be written to raven kazen victims services board of pardons and paroles p o box capital station austin texas the letter should be written if at all possible on red paper as that was agreed on at one of our first meetings it represents the coalition and all of its parts as well as the heart ache of those left behind and the blood spilled by these criminals the letter should have only one name on it so it can be filed in the folder of that criminal waiting for his next try at parole list of criminals today we have only one parole to protest on october mark steven hughes rendered numerous blows to the head of james allen pompa ten month old james went into a coma and died two days later on july mark steven hughes pled guilty to injury to a child and received a ten year sentence according to texas law mark became eligible for parole on january six months before he was even sentenced would you join us in strongly protesting the release from prison of mark steven hughes who beat a baby to death mark steven hughes beat to death the baby boy of russel pompa reference mark steven hughes tdc mark your envelope protest letter on the front and back a typical letter is indicated on the next page thank you very much irvin wilson volunteer crime strike texas date april raven kazen victims services board of pardons and paroles p o box capital station austin texas i protest the parole of mark steven hughes tdc who murdered james son of russel pompa he should be kept in prison for his full sentence and not be released at any time prior to his full sentence for any reason irvin wilson houston texas larry cipriani l v cipriani att com
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ohio legislative alert h b ohio house of representative tueday april h b no representative beatty to ammend section and and to enact n of the revised code to expand the defintion of dangerous ordinance to include military weapons that do not use bolt action to increase the penalty for a violation of the prohibtion against possesion of dangerous ordinance to prohibit any person from acquiring a military weapon on or after the act seffective date to require the licensure of military weapons acquired for a proper purpose prior to the act s effective date to prohibit a person from importing manufacturing or selling a military weapon and to declare an emergency as of monday april h b had not been assigned to a committee introduced as an emergency measure if this passes there is no chance for a reforendum and would go into effect immediately as opposed to the state requirement of days before a law goes into effect larry cipriani l v cipriani att com
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ohio legislative alert h b ohio house of representative thursday april h b no representatives seese davis batchelder amstutz t johnson van vyven wachtmann white di donato boggs logan to amend section of the revised code to add mourning dove to the game bird list and permit the chief of the division of wildlife in the department of natural resources to regulate the hunting of mourning doves and to make an appropriation this would allow the hunting of mourning doves in ohio and give the sportsman something they have been pushing for larry cipriani l v cipriani att com
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re gritz jbs liberty lobby larouche christic insitute libertarian note that bo gritz was on the populist party ticket with david duke for veep in until he found out that duke was leading he ticket when he withdrew his candidacy so gritz gave up his chance to be vice president of the us just to aviod supporting duke
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re insane gun toting wackos unite in article apr ucsu colorado edu fcrary ucsu colorado edu frank crary writes do you know how many deaths each year are caused by self inflicted gun shot wounds by people wearing thigh holsters there are roughly fatal firearms related accidents each year the large majority involve rifles and shotgun there are under fatal handgun accidents each year i really doubt all of those occur while the pistol is holstered so the number of self inflicted gunshot wounds by people wearing thigh holsters is probably well under per year i m neither a doctor nor a firearms tech expert but it would seem that given the way a holstered gun points accidental injuries inflicted that way would be among the least lethal david veal univ of tenn div of cont education info services group pa utkvm utk edu i still remember the way you laughed the day your pushed me down the elevator shaft i m beginning to think you don t love me anymore weird al
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re some more about gun control in article c bu m k ulowell ulowell edu jrutledg cs ulowell edu john lawrence rutledge wrote in article q tpinnpcn gap caltech edu arc cco caltech edu aaron ray clements writes the second amendment is a guarantee of the right to bear arms clearly and unequivocally without infringement unfortunately the second amendment is not as clear as you state if last part of it is taken along it follows what you have said the problem i have is with the first part of the single sentence which makes up the amendment the second amendment is a well regulated militia being necessary to the security militia of a free state the right of the people to keep and bear state arms shall not be infringed arms you didn t even get the capitalization correct try reading usca on the constitution or get any other correct version of the constitution this mention of a well regulated militia is what confuses me according to the federalist paper s a well regulated militia has a well defined structure and follows nationally uniform regulations perhaps you should actually read the federalist papers james madison federalist paper besides the advantage of being armed which the americans possess over the people of almost every other nation the existence of subordinate governments to which the people are attached and by which the militia officers are appointed forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of europe which are carried as far as the public resources will bear the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms james madison i annals of congress june the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed a well regulated militia composed of the body of the people trained to arms is the best and most natural defense of a free country alexander hamilton federalist paper on the organization of the militia little more can reasonably be aimed at with respect to the people at large than to have them properly armed and equipped and in order to see that this be not neglected it will be necessary to assemble them once or twice in the course of a year alexander hamilton federalist paper speaking of standing armies if circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens little if at all inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms who stand ready to defend their own rights and those of their fellow citizens but surely hamilton and madison didn t mean the people when they said people right that s why the amendment refers to the right of the militia your average year old male does not fall into the definition you re right the militia consists of all able bodied males and probably females under current interpretation therefore most members of the militia the one the every gun advocate refers to are not members of a well organized militia and therefore are not directly the amendment does nor refer to well organized it says well regulated i have some targets you may examine if you wish to check how well regulated i am mentioned in the amendment if this amendment wanted to allow every member of the militia to keep and bear arms why did it specificly mention a well organized militia in the same sentence as the right to keep and bear arms correct that s why the right is reserved to the people and that was to insure the people could form a well regulated militia not a well organized militia it could be argued that the first part of the sentence is separate from the last part if so why was it include in the same atomic unit of written what do atomic units have to do with this argument any moron can set h bar c instead of a separate sentence oh i see what your question is why don t you read the federalist papers james madison federalist paper regarding the general welfare clause nothing is more natural nor common than first to use a general phrase and then to explain and qualify it by a recital of particulars but what does madison know about the grammatical style of the nd he only wrote it the amendment also implies that the right to arms has to due with the security of a free state the federalist paper s mention of a well regulated militia gives many examples of how this militia protects the security of a free state all these examples are actions of a very organized force not some john q public with a gun that s obviously because you ve never actually read the federalist papers all that the second amendment clearly states to me is that the people s right to form well regulated militias shall not be infringed that is people have the right to join a well organized militia this well organized militia will of course provide training in how to use arms and in basic military tactics these training members of the militia can keep and bear the arms can t read huh show me where the document says well organized militia lastly reading through the federalist paper s on well organized militia it is very clear that many of the reasons for these militias one reason stated is the protection from a standing army these days the standing army could easily defeat a group consisting of every year old male and female not in the armied forces that is exactly why every person should be allowed to own any weapon currently in use in the armed forces another reason stated for well organized militias is to reduced the need for a standing army well the us armied forces have been a standing army for more than half the history of the us but the major reason is to protect against that very same army it seems to me the whole reason for the second amendment to give the people protection from the us government by guaranteeing that the people can over through the government if necessary is a little bit of an anachronism is this day and age maybe its time to re think how this should be done and amend the constitution appropriately abraham lincoln first inaugural address march this country with its institutions belongs to the people who inhabit it whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it or their revolutionary right to dismember it or overthrow it rep elbridge gerry of massachusetts spoken during floor debate over the second amendment i annals of congress at august what sir is the use of a militia it is to prevent the establishment of a standing army the bane of liberty whenever governments mean to invade the rights and liberties of the people they always attempt to destroy the militia in order to raise an army upon their ruins so now we know which category mr rutledge is in he means to destroy our liberties and rights charles scripter cescript phy mtu edu dept of physics michigan tech houghton mi when all government in little as in great things shall be drawn to washington as the centre of all power it will render powerless the checks provided of one government on another and will become as venal and oppressive as the government from which we separated thomas jefferson
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re nuclear heavy weapons and the militia long fcrary ucsu colorado edu frank crary writes down to some odd lines we must be making progress on an ironic note where i deleted lines emacs continually gave me the message garbage collecting done think it s trying to tell me something viking iastate edu dan sorenson writes and thank you it s a great change from the same tired old debates you lurkers can join in at any time you know ahhh talk politics guns the kindler gentler newsgroup who would have thought no not exactly the only reason for this sort of restriction is the possible endangerment of others a poorly maintained rifle is dangerous but only to the user since it doesn t endanger others there is no justification for such restrictions i remind you of shrapnel i consider a reasonable space limitation but make no mistake a gun blowing up is a hazard to those nearby say in the next lane at the range my point was at what distance or level of threat we draw the line is it the endangerment of others so we do a restriction or the possibility of being shot hence we draw a mile restriction or a nuke and draw a mile restriction to me they al suffer from the fundamental flaw that they restrict based upon the instrument rather than placing the responsibility for usage squarely upon the shoulders of the user perhaps sen metzenbaum declaring the barrett light fifty an assault rifle has made this more apparent to me since the barrett has only range and acurracy going for it they have determined that their lives are worth the effort to protect their homes and families using nuclear weapons close to home will not accomplish this i disagree on the grounds that a house can be rebuilt much more easily than my family once i have died i assume that word would get to the citizens that such an attack was planned if this is not the case the tactical and strategic implications change quite a bit personally my home is worth say twenty martians intent on taking over the world my family all of them the balancing act here is hard to judge sitting at my desk there is however another problem in any case of civil war the strength of the militias fighting on each side should reflect the popular will if the public is split versus then the minorities militias should be at a disadvantage such a need for popular support would hopefully prevent insurrections unless the people really were behind the rebels but heavy weapons owned by a small fraction of the militia could distort this what if the minority included all the tank and artillery owners that seems to be the case already given that heavy weapons aren t commonly owned by the citizenry with such low numbers obviously due to cost i don t think the superior weapons are going to be of great effect against a numerically superior foe furthermore it is even more doubtful their training includes proper tactical movements that best utilize tanks whereas the commonly rifleman is not so hampered in effectiveness i think it is vital to avoid such a situation where a small minority would have a reasonable chance of gaining political power through violence to prevent this it may be necessary to give control of heavy weapons e g those which only a small number of individuals would own and whose firepower would grossly distort the relation between popular support and military strength to someone other that individual militiamen this is certainly not a good thing but i think it is the lesser of two evils whoever controls these weapons must be a democratic body responsive to the will of the people i had envisioned that the armorer perhaps the officers of a select group and the like would exercise control over the heavier more complex weapons but if joe bob owns an old sherman tank i certainly wouldn t ask him to give it up follow orders from the officers yes since the expense of a tank is so large though chances are it would be jointly purchased and should therefore be jointly maintained and operated here i think we have to be carefull about which state we are talking about certainly one role of the militia is to overthrow a repressive government and it would be completely destructive to that end for that same government to control the militia s arms but the united states have several levels of government each able to act independently but not all likely targets of rebelion as such rebelions against state and local governments are very unlikely i think therefore that the state or possibly local governments could safely be allowed to keep the select militia s heavy weapons the risk of abuse while still something to consider is far less than the similar risk were the federal government in control this i ll agree with to a point the state having control over the heavy weapons should not be justification for the state to have them centrally located keep them spread out such that the ability of the state to lock them up isn t so easy otherwise i would have to assume that state control would rest on the authority of the governor and militia officers that is eaxctly why i think they should be removed the select militia should privide the militia s heavy weapons and highly trained specialists for the reasons i have outlines above i think these heavy weapons tanks artillery aircraft etc are better off being kept by local governments than by a small number of individuals however local governments shouldn t be able to use the select militia without the support to the people ideally the general militia under the direct control of the people and the select militia under the direction of democratic local governments would opperate together but even in the worst case the general militia should be able to functional without the select militia similarly the select militia should be incapable of action without the aid of the general militia i m having a hard time seeing how these heavy weapons fairly few in numbers could not be easily wielded by a few people with government support just as you argued above that the weapons should be divvied up and under democratic control so one side doesn t have all of them i can t see where this situation is alleviated in having the select militia holding all the weapons and the unorganized militia being the infantry i think a better mix is called for but i would argue that the federal army should rely upon the select militia and the unorganized militia for the bulk of its infantry units consider then the effect of removing the national guard s infantry and placing the guard under the control of local governments the government controled select militia could not fight effectively without infantry support provided by the general militia an inherently infantry organization on the other hand the general militia could function although at a disadvantage without the backing of local governments and the select militia we have to assume that there would be those who would side with the government controlled forces and if they ve all the equipment an infantry force x the size would be in trouble i d like to see that heavy stuff say tanks offset by the local troups having a few s and anti tank weapons in their armory these would be much more useful to infantry than the tank would be when cost and training requirements are figured in i suppose i m quibbling over what constitutes heavy equipment but a mechanized infantry unit is what builds dikes in times of flood sets up disaster relief cities and the like i would much rather see these things handled by the local general militias so would i but the resources often aren t available to outfit local units well enough thus we will certainly have to call in others and a mechanized unit carries more stuff faster than anything else perhaps the national guard isn t as close to my conception of the select militia as i thought i was considering them to be the heavy weapons armor arm of the militia not the infantry arm of the regular army perhaps our ideas of heavy weapons are different i think main battle tanks self propelled artillery and mm and up field pieces are heavy stuff m troop carriers ton trucks humvee s old m tanks howitzers are more the stuff of a mechanized infantry actually this is what the guard units in iowa are currently fielding in some units perhaps it is just my innate fear of having the real heavy equipment under state control with little but numbers and light stuff to act as a deterrent allowing main battle tanks to the states should be balanced with anti tank capability in the local ranks similarly local units would need to band together quickly hence small and fast response means mechanized infantry finally the militia is more than just fighting equipment is needed for other responses the federal army i m convinced should have a very minumum of infantry relying on the state and local militias for these functions dan sorenson dod z dan exnet iastate edu viking iastate edu isu only censors what i read not what i say don t blame them usenet post to exotic distant machines meet exciting unusual people and flame them
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re my gun is like my american express card thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio no writes i hate long postings but this turned out to be rather lengthy that s ok you can mail me if you want more discussion acquiring weapons in norway you can buy almost all kinds of weapons in norway but you must have a permit and a good reason to get the permit around here long guns are proof of age and fill out the forms for pistols nation wide check for felonies and three days wait the good reason is the difference and one americans tend to get annoyed over as we see no reason the guy with the badge is any better than us it s a little like getting a drivers licence isn t it you have to prove that you can drive before you are allowed to not when dealing with america i can drive an wheel truck with no permit no license and at age if i m engaged in farming work strange that but there is little to no problem with this again personal rights versus collective security some crimes are commited with guns that have been in the owners arms for a long time but these are rather the exeption most criminals accuire guns to use them in crimes and mostly short time befor the crime strange that the rates would decline since killing somebody is much more frowned upon than merely stealing a gun use of knives it is allowed to cary knifes in public but not in your belt or open you americans think it s ok to have a gun but not to carry it open in public rigth why attract attention i carry my sword openly to and from practice as that is the only legal thing i can do i also attract a lot of attention doing this i d rather be lost in a crowd of one than be the subject of attention while carrying a weapon think of the word intimidation and you can see where intimidation is not the preferable method for the normal citizen scandinavians are aggressive we northeners are not as hot livered as southeners but when we decide to take action we do ask any historian or millitary with an knowledge of europe or ask any german who served in norway in ww aggressive towards whom southerners germans precisely why i think your society is less violent weapons aside yes the individual is more important than the masses but only to some extent your criminal laws are to protect the individuals who makes the masses what happens when the rigths of some individuals affects the rights of all the masses editor barf dan then the masses have the same rights as the individuals because everything comes down to the individual in one instance or another to draw an analogy norway is involved in the eec the usa in involved in nato the eec requires certain changes in your laws nato requires no such changes in usa law these laws affect citizens and hence norway is saying europe is more important than say norwegians having motorcycles that make over bhp in the usa we d likely tell the eec to get stuffed since the eec has no business in our eyes in telling us how much horsepower we can safely ride while i note that our own state governments often play with game with the federal government in essence this is a cultural difference between us if i lived in amerika i would probably have a gun to defend myselfe in home but should it have to be like that it shouldn t since neither of our countries has managed to remove criminals from society in america we feel and remember we have individual states that are larger than your country that if the police cannot protect us then we must do so ourselves the criminals in our country are quite violent hence we prepare for them do you think it s wise to sell guns like candy some states do if you believe it s smart neccacery to have drivers licence why do you think it should be free to buy guns we don t e mail me to find out just how difficult it really is in this country it is easier than in yours but theft is far easier than the troubles we go through to purchase over here i would defend my home loved ones and country but i don t view guns as neccities or toys they are neither they are an option we would never force you to own guns if you lived here we would however fight to keep that option open to you i have done army service and have used a variaty of weapons but wouldn t want to have one for self defence or because they feel good then you show you are a responsible rational user of weapons welcome to our ranks now how do we teach the young people this sort of responsibility cultures seem to have a grave impact here i notice you didn t use my great grandfather s name well he didn t like it much either dan sorenson dod z dan exnet iastate edu viking iastate edu isu only censors what i read not what i say don t blame them usenet post to exotic distant machines meet exciting unusual people and flame them
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re that silly outdated bill was re koresh and miranda in article apr cbnews cb att com lvc cbnews cb att com larry cipriani writes as for the move incident wasn t the mayor of philadelphia at the time black for the first move incident no bomb several members killed in gunfire circa the mayor was the very white frank rizzo for the second bomb included the mayor was wilson goode who is indeed black jim halat
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re a scoop of waco road please cdt sw stratus com c d tavares writes your lite posting for the day from rec humor funny in article s adf looking on ca bellas tti com pete bellas writes there is a new ice cream flavor inspired by the incident at waco it s called mount caramel it s full of nuts but you can t get it out of the carton cdt rocket sw stratus com if you believe that i speak for my company or cdt vos stratus com write today for my special investors packet even though i find this to be funny on the surface the original poster of the joke has tried and convicted the members of the bd to be a bunch of nuts this may be a dangerous thing to do it is my opinion that most educated or well informed people of this country have some distrust of the government this should exist because as a bureaucracy any government given enough time will tend to exist for it self and not for the original purpose it was created for this distrust by the people should keep those in power in line that and a properly functioning press when a sensationalism oriented press portrays a group of people as nuts or crazies a violation of those people s civil rights seem justified since we as american s have the gurantee of rights as enumerated in the constitution to include the nd ammendment the government must appease the public s opinion or risk voted out of existance or if it has become corrupt enough to tamper with domocratic process itself being thrown out by force our government as it stands must appease the public therefore the official press releases portray the bd s as fanatics who are a threat to public safety we must not prejudge people based on one sided information so far the only information that we are being given is comming from the very agency that was embarrased by the bd branch davidians sp it is to their advantage to make the bd s as fanatical and dangerous as possible if they were portrayed as law abiding citizen s then they atf had no justification what so ever of doing what they did so let s keep an open mind jokes like above even though it may be funny may mislead the public from the truth of the matter just as an aside my understanding of u s vs rock island and u s vs dalton leads me to believe that the national firearms act which allows the fed s in this case atf to regulate firearms machine guns has been deemed to be unconstitutional since by two federal district courts at least and since i believe the only reason atf was involved in this case is because of firearms violations it would be interesting to find out whether or not the search warrent was based on the nfa it would be very embarrassing indeed if a search warrent based on a possibly unconstitutional law has resulted in deaths law enforcement the above opinions are mine and mine only i m solely responsible for my opinions and my actions if you must flame then flame away but a well constructed argument will be much more respected young hoon yoon yoony rpi edu north hall n zud hibp ecse rpi edu rensselaer polytechnic institute n zud hl kmt former troy ny
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re clinton wants national id card aka ussr style internal passport in article apr ucsu colorado edu fcrary ucsu colorado edu frank crary writes in article c jif i n boi hp com slack boi hp com david slack writes the idea of the card is bull in and of its self but i m curious to know do they plan on making it a requirement to always have it on you or is it only going to be required to be presented when trying to ge medical aid this at least has already been determined the blue cross medical coverage for all federal employees is a good model for a future national system to get emergency medical care anyone so insured must always carry their blue cross card before entering a hospital you must notify blue cross or they will refuse to pay your bills in an emergency where you must be treated before notifying them you must inform them within hours or if you are unable to do so for medical reasons the hospital must failing to do so within hours means they will not cover the hospitalization in you need your card to notify them and without the card the hospital certainly wouldn t know they had to therefore you are required to carry the card at all times or do without emergency medical coverage frank crary cu boulder which works fine until you end up in the hospital because you were hit on the head and your wallet with your insurance card is stolen this happened to me and it took six months to sort the mess out these sorts of plans sound nice at first but in the end they just create a lot of paperwork and bureaucracy to deal with all the checking and filing they involve tom the non hacker tsmith seismo soar cs cmu edu the return address is set wrong send personal response to the above address
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re guns in backcountry no thanks hmm wouldn t manditory saftey classes registration of both the owner and gun and manditory liability insurance be nice for gun owners the two are not the same as i pointed out above there are significant difference between making rules for use on public property and making rules for ownership the other half of the objection is trust similar things to this have been tried in many local jurisdications across the country and have been abused in far too many cases safety classes which are never sheduled never funded or only one or two is held a year for a limited number of participants registration lists in new york chicago and california have been used for confiscation many gun owners would in theory support these planes although the numbers overwhelmingly show that competence is not the problem that intentional misuse is they ve simply seen it abused and are leery of the next person who comes down the pike with a reasonable suggestion they ve already seen abused gun safety classes sound good in theory but they kind of remind me of the literacy tests used in the bad old days to keep blacks from voting they came with the grandfather clause if your grandfather could vote you could vote sort of like the gun safety laws that only let the political ass kissers have guns doug holland
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re batf fbi revenge pat rwing uucp pat myrto writes well maybe i am overreacting this is probably the best part of your post everything else is shrill speculation tom gift tomgift uxa cso uiuc edu
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re rewording the second amendment ideas you believe that individuals should have the right to own weapons of mass destruction i find it hard to believe that you would support a neighbor s right to keep nuclear weapons biological weapons and nerve gas on his her property there is no law prohibiting having biological weapons or nerve gas on his her property or even walking on government property with such items ipso facto it is now one s right to have such weapons of mass destruction hell the u s patent office has patents on the manufacture of nerve gas that anyone can obtain simply by sending a to the patent office in washington d c p o box these same patents are verboten to english citizens from their own patent office which doesn t surprise me based on the mistrust of the uk government against private ownership of semi automatic rifles if we cannot even agree on keeping weapons of mass destruction out of the hands of individuals can there be any hope for us so you are saying we should have legislation prohibiting owning biological warfare agents or nerve agents will you pass laws against owning chlorine gas or cyanide as well will you pass laws against owning acetylene gas that could have been used against the bradley ifvs had the branch dividians known of their anti combustion engine effects will you pass laws against owning gallon cylinders of propane because they could have been used as flame throwers yes the proverbial road to hell it s always for our own good
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change of name make a new newsgroup called talk politics guns paranoid or talk politics guns they r here to take me away move all postings about waco and burn to guess where stop posting on this newsgroup we are all so glad you re trying to save us from the evil goverment but would you mail this in regular mail to let s say people this is not a signature it s merely a computergenerated text to waste bandwith and to bring down the evil internet thomas parsli thomasp ifi uio no
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re atf burns dividian ranch no survivors in article aej d cmuvm bitnet aej d cmuvm bitnet writes i will be surprised if this post makes it past the censors but here goes monday april edt murder most foul cnn is reporting as i write this that the atf has ignited all the buildings of the branch dividian ranch near waco tx the lies from atf say holes were made in the walls and non lethal tear gas pumped in a few minutes after this started the whole thing went up all buildings are aflame no one has escaped i think it obvious that the atf used armored flame thrower vehicles to pump in unlit napalm then let the wood stove inside ignite it this is murder atf murderers butchers this is genocidal mass slaughter of innocent people including children i have predicted this from the start but god it sickens me to see it happen i had hoped i was wrong i had hoped that there was still some shred of the america i grew up with and loved left alive i was wrong the nazis have won i repeat as of this time there are no survivors god help us all please crosspost don t let them get away with the slaughter of the children w k gorman an american in tears flame on is this guy serious if he would ever really pay attention to the news oops i forgot that the media for the most part loves to jump right on top of a story before all the facts are known as well as to manipulate what we see and thus what we believe any ways one of koresh s devoted followers that did i repeat did survive this genocidal mass slaughter of innocent people besides there are nine survivors in the burn unit of the local hospital and was reported that david was in one of the towers when the shit hit the fan besides a majority of these children were children that he was supposed to have been the father of this then makes them bastard children to a sacraligious zeloit sp also someone should have told david and his followers that if they can t the heat then they should stay out of the kitchen pun intended flame off aaah daniaalson yah wanna fight fight me matthew r hamilton mhamilto mcs kent edu a k a cs physics major h ksuvxb kent edu the lawnmowerman kent state university h ksuvxb kent edu look here for future advice quotes sayings jibberish philosohy
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re ax the atf true congress has said that possesion of an unlicensed automatic weapon is a violation of the law congress did not however say that such possesion was a capital offense or a transgression worth getting four good government agents killed and others wounded even if it were a capital offense the warrant was not even an arrest warrant but a search warrant in other words there was no evidence of illegal arms just enough of a suggestion to get a judge to sign a license to search for illegal evidence question as in the rodney king case will the us doj institute criminal civil rights proceedings against the batf or at least an investigation ok sorry i asked
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re batf fbi revenge am i having a vain hope that an honest investigation will occur on this thing or will it simply be whitewashed under the rug and business as usual will continue to be the order of the day in the new order who will be given the official title of thought police i wonder and if clinton and friends have their way highly likely at this point the new order government will also have all the guns so what if is going to be ten years late i think we are going to discover that we will be paying dearly for putting this fellow in office for decades to come even some die hard supporters are having serious doubts about their savior ahem see the war on drugs as sponsored by the bush and reagan administrations the precedent had well been set for federal agencies to step on more than a few of what people consider rights i won t make excuses for anyone but most of the damage had been done before clinton even entered the race in
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re batf fbi murders almost everyone in waco today in article c rpoj ijv news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes two of the nine who escaped the compound said the fire was deliberately set by cult members correction the fbi says that two of the nine who escaped said the fire was deliberately set by cult members since the press was kept miles away we have absolutely no independent verification of any of the government s claims in this matter kevin s van horn is your religion batf approved vanhorn bert cs byu edu
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re ax the atf a few comments on the atf s botched handling of this case attempting to storm the compound in broad daylight the explanation we were given at least at one point was that they thought the cult members would be at religious services my only comment on this bit of idiocy is that if you re going to operate as a quasi military unit you d better understand basic military tactics one cardinal rule is that only a fool plans an operation where if one assumption is incorrect the operation will fail disastrously we were told that atf got four agents killed because they were outgunned they didn t expect such heavy resistance when questioned about why such an overwhelming military style assault was planned we were told that it was because the cultists were thought to be heavily armed can you say contradictory i knew you could the batf has had a bad reputation for years as a bunch of arrogant hotdoggers i was talking to relatives a couple of weeks ago and referred to them as a bunch of crockett and tubbs wannabes i m more than ever convinced that s right on target an anecdote not related to the waco fiasco is that apparently the batf screwed up some of the evidence in the world trade center bombing there s now an excellent chance some of the forensic evidence gathered by the fbi will not be admissible in court this is not hearsay i was told this by a relative of my wife s who happens to be an fbi agent his opinion of the batf was ummm well let s just say uncomplimentary i have still not been presented with one iota of evidence that the bd s had any of the alleged illegal weaponry which was the reason for the raid in the first place btw we re still hearing this justification ag reno on cnn yesterday made references to this issue without any substantiation she also waved around the he s a child abuser and we heard he was beating the children flag sigh a point re the feds in general their handling of the whole siege reflected a complete lack of understanding of the probable thought processes of the cultists ag reno said they pushed the button because they were afraid a mass suicide was in the offing my only comment on that is that if the cultists were that close to the edge what the hell did she think their reaction would be to an hours long assault on the compound where holes were punched in the walls and cs gas pumped in if i were a bd i d expect the forces of the godless government to assault me at any time in that light whether they torched themselves or drank jim jones kool aid is irrelevant also look at how the siege was conducted bright lights loud rock music cutting off communications and other contact with the outside all measures designed to make the bd s feel more and more isolated and threatened this might have been a great strategy if they were dealing with criminals as it was it looks to me like everything they did fed into koresh s paranoid delusions include std disclaimer h dan s
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re batf fbi murders almost everyone in waco today in article r qsrinnc clem handheld com jim de arras writes mr roby you are a government sucking heartless bastard humans died yesterday humans who would not have died if the fbi had not taken the actions they did that is the undeniable truth the question is for how long even if the fbi had done nothing i guess the bds would have committed suicide but maybe not until hunger and thirst gave them the choice between sucide or surrender the bds was warned in beforehand about the fbi action they had the chance to surrender and get a fair trial no matter who started the fire the bds were responsible for peole dying no one else paal ellingsen borgensvingen tlf paale stud cs uit no kvaloeysletta data dobbelt arbeid til alle
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talk.politics.guns
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re gritz jbs liberty lobby larouche christic insitute libertarian in article apr ccsvax sfasu edu f gautjw ccsvax sfasu edu writes in article kckluge apr krusty eecs umich edu kckluge eecs umich edu karl kluge writes and i m sure that people who were big fans of fuedalism pissed and moaned about the emergence of the modern nation state imagine the king allowing serfs their freedom if they could live in the city for a year times change technology changes viable forms of social organization change while concerns about preserving western notions of civil liberties in the face of cultures with very different values is a valid one it s a waste of effort to try to turn back the tide it s much smarter to focus on trying to make sure that the emerging forms of social organization are your response is yet another sign of the trend towards one world government many people such as yourself who are otherwise probably likeable and intelligent show every sign of having been successfully brainwashed you don t recognize that your inevitable tide is rolling into chaos and in no way represents an advance for civilization some of us do indeed lament the passing of old forms such as the bill of rights which are indeed inalienable rights of man that cannot be changed transferred or surrendered rights of man that far transcend yes napoleon wanted a grand new order hitler wanted a thousand year reich lenin knew that bolshevism would give us the universal new man the new world order is just so much of the same old tired garbage the pathetic part is that so many americans seem put not your trust in princes is the biblical proverb the modern analog is governments at the time of the founding of the us the idea that citizens had rights above those of the government was not that common but was explicit in the writings of the founders to a considerable extent englishmen also had those rights yes times change and technology changes the possibility of a few governments enserfing all of mankind was not possible until quite recently in the feudal system the lord was almost as restricted as the serfs so having the people enserf themselves does not make anything better most feudal lords and even most slaveowners did not mistreat those under them freedom of speech and freedom of religion are under real attack now herman rubin dept of statistics purdue univ west lafayette in phone hrubin snap stat purdue edu internet bitnet purdue pur ee snap stat hrubin uucp
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talk.politics.guns
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re batf fbi murders almost everyone in waco today in article c rpoj ijv news udel edu roby chopin udel edu scott w roby writes well they had over days to come out with their hands up on national tv to get the trial they deserved instead they chose to set fire to their compund hours after the tanks dropped off the tear gas this is about the third person who s parroted the fbi s line about the fires being set six hours after the tear gas was injected suppose you want to explain to us the videotape footage shown on national tv last night in which a tank with the gas injecting tubes is pulling its injection tubes out of the second story of a building as the building begins to belch smoke and then fire do tell joe
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9,599 |
talk.politics.guns
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gun talk state legislative update april as william o douglas noted if a powerful sponsor is lacking individual liberty withers in spite of glowing opinions and resounding constitutional phrases the legislative scorecard outlined below resulted from subcommittee committee and floor action many important victories however come from coordinating with legislators to ensure anti gun anti hunting legislation is either amended favorably rejected or never voted these quiet victories are no less impressive in protecting our fundamental civil liberties guaranteed by the second amendment to the u s constitution arizona sb nra supported legislation concerning minors in criminal possession of firearms passed the house is currently awaiting action by the governor arkansas hb firearms preemption legislation was signed by the governor making this the forty first state to pass preemption preemption had passed twice in previous sessions only to be vetoed by then gov bill clinton hb mandatory storage of firearms amended and then killed in committee colorado sb mandating the storage of firearms with a trigger lock killed in committee sb prohibiting the sale of certain semi auto firearms was killed in committee sb so called colorado handgun violence prevention act including a provision for a day waiting period killed in committee connecticut substitute bill no imposing a tax on all firearms ammunition and archery equipment killed in environment committee florida a bill to require a year license at a cost of to own or possess semi automatic firearms with a second degree felony provision years in prison died in committee along with numerous other anti gun owner bills no anti gun legislation passed in florida this year georgia sb supposed instant check with provision allowing for up to a day waiting period defeated in house public safety committee and sent to interim study committee mandatory storage bill sb was defeated in the senate the same bill passed the upper house in illinois hb prohibiting the sale possession manufacture purchase possession or carrying of certain semi auto firearms was defeated in house judiciary ii subcommittee on firearms hb mandatory storage legislation failed in house judiciary subcommittee on firearms hb repeals foid and makes ftip point of sale check permanent passed out of judiciary committee by a vote presently on the calendar for third reading in the house sb mandatory storage bill defeated in committee sb imposing a handgun excise tax failed in senate committee on revenue s subcommittee on tax increases sb imposing a tax on all persons engaged in the business of selling firearms failed in senate revenue committee s subcommittee on tax increases indiana sb statewide firearms preemption passed in the senate and in the house twelve amendments were introduced on the house floor to sb among these amendments were a ban on certain semi auto firearms mandatory storage trigger lock a ban on saturday night specials similar to maryland bill and handgun rationing one handgun per month all were defeated i read this morning s b was defeated lvc kansas hb providing for a hour waiting period on all firearms was defeated in committee hb presently on the governor s desk hb and sb and all relating to victims rights are expected to be enacted into law maine funding for the department of fish and wildlife budget was restored following severe reductions in the governor s proposed budget ld an anti hunting bill which included reverse posting and yard safety zones killed in committee maryland sb firearms incendiary ammunition died in committee on a vote sb reckless endangerment firearms sale or transfer died in committee on a vote sb gun control assault weapons died in committee on vote sb weapons free school zone was withdrawn sb weapons on school property driver s license suspension was withdrawn sb assault pistols sale purchase or transport died in committee on vote sb assault pistols act of died in committee on a vote sb baltimore city firearms rifles and shotguns died in committee on a vote hb pistol and revolver dealers licenses compliance with zoning laws was withdrawn hb regulated firearms sales and transfer died on the senate floor hb handguns and assault weapons advertising for sale or transfer died in committee hb handguns and assault weapons exhibitors died in committee hb assault pistols act of died in committee on a vote hb gun shows sale trade or transfer of regulated firearms died in committee on a vote hb firearms handguns assault pistols handgun roster board was withdrawn hb rifles and shotguns registration was withdrawn hb pistols and revolvers private sales or transfers required notice died in committee and hb prince georges county weapons free school zone was withdrawn mississippi hb closing a loophole allowing felons to possess firearms passed both houses and signed by the governor the bill codifies into law mechanism for certain felons to have their second amendment liberties reinstated nebraska lb and lb mandatory trigger lock bills killed in committee new hampshire h b providing for reciprocity for concealed carry licenses passed h b increasing the term of a license to carry loaded handguns passed new mexico sb imposing a day waiting period defeated in senate committee and then on floor of the senate hb mandatory storage legislation was killed by a vote of in committee hb legislation safeguarding sportsmen in the field from harassment by animal rights extremists signed into law by the governor on march new york seven day waiting period was defeated in the city of buffalo ban on certain semi autos was defeated in monroe county the tax and fee bills to be imposed on guns and ammo were not included in the budget sb making pistol licenses provides for validity of pistol license throughout the state passed senate currently awaiting action in assembly committee north dakota hb granting victims compensation in certain circumstances was signed into law by the governor on april oregon sb banning firearms on school grounds and in court buildings withdrawn as a result of gun owners opposition rhode island hb mandatory firearms storage legislation defeated in committee by a vote of hb an act prohibiting aliens from owning firearm defeated by unanimous vote in committee hb excepting nra instructors from the firearms safety requirement reported favorably hb exempting persons with an attorney general s permit from the day waiting period reported to the floor by a vote of hb extending the term of a permit to carry from two years to three years reported to the floor unanimously utah hb reforming the state s concealed carry statute passed out of house committee sb creating civil liability for so called negligent storage of a firearm and sb creating the offense of reckless endangerment with a firearm killed on senate floor virginia s b and s b requiring proof of state residence to obtain virginia driver s license passed s b which increases the penalty and imposes a mandatory minimum sentence for straw man purchases of multiple firearms passed s b allowing possession of sawed off rifles and shotguns in compliance with federal law passed s b making it a felony for first offense of carrying a concealed firearm without a license which the nra opposes until law abiding citizens can acquire a concealed carry license for self defense was defeated h b increasing the penalty for use of a firearm in committing a felony was passed h b requiring proof of residence to obtain a driver s license passed h b providing for a referendum on the imposition of a statewide three day waiting period in handgun purchases was defeated washington sb calling for waiting periods and licensing for all semi automatic firearms died in committee west virginia s c r which calls for a study to control transfers of handguns and assault weapons was defeated in the senate wisconsin in a referendum up against all odds the determined efforts of the madison area citizens against crime paid off on april when a nonbinding referendum banning the possession of handguns in madison wisconsin was defeated despite opposition to the ban aired largely by firearms owners at a series of public meetings on the issue the common council voted on february to place the referendum on the ballot allowing only seven weeks of campaigning to reverse public opinion on the controversial issue an october poll conducted by the wisconsin state journal found in support and opposed with expressing no opinion by election day of the more than voters who went to the polls cast ballots in opposition to the proposal while voted to have the madison common council enact such a ban the campaign committee spearheaded by the wisconsin pro gun movement and nra ila relied on neighborhood canvassing direct mail and radio tv advertising to educate voters on the civil liberties implications raised by enforcement of the ban if the referendum was approved despite the surprising defeat it is expected that the madison initiative s chief proponent mayor paul soglin will attempt to have the common council enact an ordinance banning handguns downloaded from gun talk a service of the national rifle association institute for legislative action washington dc larry cipriani l v cipriani att com
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