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ax840p | [Discussion] When is the $2K autopilot coming out? Is it next month (April?) or very soon? | Very confused and I really want to buy auto pilot but it still shows up as like $5 300 (Canadian dollars). The blog post https: www.tesla.com en_CA blog upgrading-autopilot-and-full-self-driving-capability says beginning next month and it s posted March 1 so does that mean April? Do I have to wait for that firmware update that increases the power? When can I buy Auto Pilot? | canucktesladude | 2019-03-04 15:08:30 | 33 | ehrqouf | Should be sooner than next month per Elon [https: twitter.com elonmusk status 1101741213722525697](https: twitter.com elonmusk status 1101741213722525697) | CmonYouKnowMe | 2019-03-04 15:15:32 | 6 | Tesla Autopilot Performance Review |
ax840p | [Discussion] When is the $2K autopilot coming out? Is it next month (April?) or very soon? | Very confused and I really want to buy auto pilot but it still shows up as like $5 300 (Canadian dollars). The blog post https: www.tesla.com en_CA blog upgrading-autopilot-and-full-self-driving-capability says beginning next month and it s posted March 1 so does that mean April? Do I have to wait for that firmware update that increases the power? When can I buy Auto Pilot? | canucktesladude | 2019-03-04 15:08:30 | 33 | ehrqgwv | Same here! I sent a request to my local service center over the weekend. Will report back what they say. | EleventhHero | 2019-03-04 15:12:37 | 5 | Tesla Autopilot Performance Review |
bqd6s1 | [Discussion] Which USB controllers are confirmed to work with all the Tesla games? Wireless preferred. | I bought a wireless one that someone else had sort of recommended it was totally unusable for several games. Link for the crappy one: https: www.amazon.com dp B01KV7B2CG Extra text to satisfy bots. Extra text to satisfy bots. Extra text to satisfy bots. Extra text to satisfy bots. Extra text to satisfy bots. Extra text to satisfy bots. Extra text to satisfy bots. | digitalcascade | 2019-05-19 05:01:30 | 26 | eo3gi95 | Pretty sure only wired controllers work | ferrarienz00 | 2019-05-19 05:05:58 | 8 | Miscellaneous Tesla Topic |
bqd6s1 | [Discussion] Which USB controllers are confirmed to work with all the Tesla games? Wireless preferred. | I bought a wireless one that someone else had sort of recommended it was totally unusable for several games. Link for the crappy one: https: www.amazon.com dp B01KV7B2CG Extra text to satisfy bots. Extra text to satisfy bots. Extra text to satisfy bots. Extra text to satisfy bots. Extra text to satisfy bots. Extra text to satisfy bots. Extra text to satisfy bots. | digitalcascade | 2019-05-19 05:01:30 | 26 | eo3zz4o | Just wait till the xbox game streaming service works on your Tesla car... now that will be mobile gaming! | TrekaTeka | 2019-05-19 11:07:15 | 7 | Miscellaneous Tesla Topic |
7yikun | [Discussion] Which electric motor is the future of electric vehicles? | Hello we are currently working on a project for our higher education entrance qualification. The project is about which type of electric motor is best suited for electric cars considering technical economic and ecological factors. Since I already found valuable information [on Reddit](https: www.reddit.com r teslamotors comments 6strnb model_3_permanent_magnet_vs_sx_induction_motors ) I would like to ask some questions and hear your opinions on this topic. Our research has shown that there are different types of motors and the industry isn t set on one particular type of motor. Tesla for example used an induction motor for the Original Roadster (For the first versions the technology was licensed from AC Propulsion) the Model S and the Model X but switched to a permanent magnet motor (PM) for the Model 3. Most of the other manufacturers like VW Hyundai Citroën Peugeot and Mitsubishi also use synchronous permanent magnet motors. BMW uses a [proprietary motor](https: patents.google.com patent US20120267977A1 en) (permanent magnets + switched reluctance) which is built by AC Propulsion (they claim that on their website but BMW is the patent owner). The technical aspects are quite complex because the load on the motor is very variable depending on driving conditions (urban highway mountains) driving style etc. So determining which is the best motor depends on the type of car and driver. A general rule which we picked up during our research is that a PM is usually used if the vehicle runs at max RPM most of the time and an induction motor is best suited if high peak power is required. One limiting factor for the peak power is the heat the losses in the rotor of an induction motor. Which are difficult to cool. Tesla owns [a patent] ( https: patentimages.storage.googleapis.com 24 c5 10 0c5ea07a6dec24 US7489057.pdf) which would allow cooling the rotor. Is there any evidence that this is actually used in the motors produced by Tesla? From videos showing the [production of the Model S motor](https: www.tesla.com de_DE videos high-efficiency-electric-drive-unit) we could tell that the shaft of the motor is in fact hollow but not if the mentioned cooling system is used. For the other type of motor the BMW Motor [they claim](http: hybridfordonscentrum.se wp-content uploads 2014 05 20140404_BMW.pdf) that it s better than the induction motor and the PM and very efficient over the entire RPM range but there is no third party information to verify this. For the economic and ecological aspects we want to consider not only the parts of the motor but also parts that are affected by the motor performance. For example if an electric car uses a less efficient motor it requires a bigger battery which is expensive and also pollutes the environment. To write about these tradeoffs we would need data about how much of which material is used in different kinds of motors. Then we could research how expensive the raw material is and how many tons of CO2 equivalent greenhouse gases are emitted by their production (for example Neodym for permanent magnets is expensive and its production pollutes the environment much more than copper). This could be compared to the lithium used for larger batteries if the motor is less efficient. But getting data on this or even estimates is quite difficult. Does anybody know if there are any good sources available? I m looking forward to hearing your opinions on this topic. What do you think which motor will be used by Tesla and other car manufacturers in the future? I really appreciate any help. | CytogeneticBoxing | 2018-02-19 00:11:59 | 21 | duhijao | Research for higher education and comes to Reddit. Now I have seen everything. | Rev-777 | 2018-02-19 11:19:46 | 6 | Miscellaneous Tesla Topic |
83npkj | [Discussion] Which happens first: Long Range model s int l shipping or standard battery version production? | And why? | Ter551 | 2018-03-11 16:26:41 | 10 | dvjby07 | Long range. They need the margins on the cars and SR isn t going to have them. You ll probably also see dual motor and performance options before the SR version. | fossilnews | 2018-03-11 18:20:31 | 9 | Miscellaneous Tesla Topic |
83npkj | [Discussion] Which happens first: Long Range model s int l shipping or standard battery version production? | And why? | Ter551 | 2018-03-11 16:26:41 | 10 | dvjceu8 | Tesla will hold off SR until it can make margin. That is when Gigafactory can mass produce battery. Question needs to be asked is when will Gagafactory fully up and runnng? | kapachia | 2018-03-11 18:29:19 | 5 | Miscellaneous Tesla Topic |
8qg9z1 | [Discussion] Which of the stated FSD features will Tesla introduce in August? | Elon Musk has indicated that FSD features are coming as early as August. Here s the list of features offered for $3 000 from the Order a Tesla page: a) The system is designed to be able to conduct short and long distance trips with no action required by the person in the driver s seat. b) For Superchargers that have automatic charge connection enabled you will not even need to plug in your vehicle. c) All you will need to do is get in and tell your car where to go. d) The car will look at your calendar and take you there as the assumed destination or just home if nothing is on the calendar. e) Your Tesla will... figure out the optimal route f) ...navigate urban streets (even without lane markings) g) ...manage complex intersections with traffic lights stop signs and roundabouts h) handle densely packed freeways with cars moving at high speed. i) When you arrive at your destination simply step out at the entrance and your car will enter park seek mode automatically search for a spot and park itself. j) A tap on your phone summons it back to you. Which features or parts of features do you think Tesla will make available to owners later this summer? | Mi75d | 2018-06-12 04:59:42 | 29 | e0iz87j | Basic stuff such as reading traffic lights and stop signs | Blind_at_Sea | 2018-06-12 05:05:54 | 23 | Tesla Autopilot Performance Review |
8qg9z1 | [Discussion] Which of the stated FSD features will Tesla introduce in August? | Elon Musk has indicated that FSD features are coming as early as August. Here s the list of features offered for $3 000 from the Order a Tesla page: a) The system is designed to be able to conduct short and long distance trips with no action required by the person in the driver s seat. b) For Superchargers that have automatic charge connection enabled you will not even need to plug in your vehicle. c) All you will need to do is get in and tell your car where to go. d) The car will look at your calendar and take you there as the assumed destination or just home if nothing is on the calendar. e) Your Tesla will... figure out the optimal route f) ...navigate urban streets (even without lane markings) g) ...manage complex intersections with traffic lights stop signs and roundabouts h) handle densely packed freeways with cars moving at high speed. i) When you arrive at your destination simply step out at the entrance and your car will enter park seek mode automatically search for a spot and park itself. j) A tap on your phone summons it back to you. Which features or parts of features do you think Tesla will make available to owners later this summer? | Mi75d | 2018-06-12 04:59:42 | 29 | e0j70aa | In the shareholder meeting he stated that he was driving on the current prototype software and it was going on-ramp to off-ramp and working quite well. I think this is what will be released. The full on-ramp to off-ramp autopilot. I know that s more EAP than FSD but that s what I think is coming. Question is... Do we need to be hand-on-wheel or will it be Level 4 when on the freeway? Are they able to detect and avoid stationary objects in version 9? | serverguy247 | 2018-06-12 09:05:39 | 9 | Tesla Autopilot Performance Review |
8qg9z1 | [Discussion] Which of the stated FSD features will Tesla introduce in August? | Elon Musk has indicated that FSD features are coming as early as August. Here s the list of features offered for $3 000 from the Order a Tesla page: a) The system is designed to be able to conduct short and long distance trips with no action required by the person in the driver s seat. b) For Superchargers that have automatic charge connection enabled you will not even need to plug in your vehicle. c) All you will need to do is get in and tell your car where to go. d) The car will look at your calendar and take you there as the assumed destination or just home if nothing is on the calendar. e) Your Tesla will... figure out the optimal route f) ...navigate urban streets (even without lane markings) g) ...manage complex intersections with traffic lights stop signs and roundabouts h) handle densely packed freeways with cars moving at high speed. i) When you arrive at your destination simply step out at the entrance and your car will enter park seek mode automatically search for a spot and park itself. j) A tap on your phone summons it back to you. Which features or parts of features do you think Tesla will make available to owners later this summer? | Mi75d | 2018-06-12 04:59:42 | 29 | e0j0t9n | My guess are more “basic” features. We are not going to see level 5 go to bed FSD in August. I would bet a Summon+ and A Park Seek Mode. Perhaps a more advance summon feature. You ll be able to set up exactly where you want to car to park in your garage. Right now it just goes forward and back nothing dynamic you have to actually line it up before activating summon into your garage. During setup the car takes visual cues and measurements maybe even gps coordinates inside your spot in the garage then you confirm. Then put the car anywhere on the driveway activate summon and it should dynamically go to the exact spot you want it to in the garage. That s my hope on the next iteration of summon. Then maybe Park Seek Mode. So park in front of said location and when you exit the car off it goes to find a parking spot. Kind of like at the end of that FSD demo video Tesla put out a couple of years ago. That would be awesome! Hate wasting time looking for parking. | ShinjukuWard | 2018-06-12 05:45:54 | 6 | Tesla Autopilot Performance Review |
ab9ouk | [Discussion] Which of you were the lucky ones to make the December 31 cutoff today? | Today is the last day for the Federal tax incentive of $7 500 in a new Tesla purchase. Which ones were lucky to make the cutoff today and why did you (decide had to) wait until the last day for delivery? Please post stories and pictures! Tesla is the first automaker to cross the cutoff. It s an unprecedented milestone in the BEV industry. By my estimate the Federal government has supported just short of $3 billion in $7 500 incentives for Tesla vehicles. | gotfrank | 2018-12-31 18:21:09 | 22 | ecyuygd | My friend and I both received the same text on Friday from a sales adviser if we were interested in a going over some inventory vehicles with her and that it would also include 3 years of supercharging. We didn t think much of it and asked her to send us a few Xs available. Saturday we both pulled the trigger and took delivery yesterday & #x200B And this all happened from a random text message. & #x200B I traded in a 2016 S. The delivery experience was terrible but that s another story. | Dknn79 | 2018-12-31 20:38:06 | 17 | Miscellaneous Tesla Topic |
ab9ouk | [Discussion] Which of you were the lucky ones to make the December 31 cutoff today? | Today is the last day for the Federal tax incentive of $7 500 in a new Tesla purchase. Which ones were lucky to make the cutoff today and why did you (decide had to) wait until the last day for delivery? Please post stories and pictures! Tesla is the first automaker to cross the cutoff. It s an unprecedented milestone in the BEV industry. By my estimate the Federal government has supported just short of $3 billion in $7 500 incentives for Tesla vehicles. | gotfrank | 2018-12-31 18:21:09 | 22 | ecyon6r | Right now waiting for them to get the car ready. Picking up today my MX but TM3 won t arrive before next week so there s that... | HeigoPaartalu | 2018-12-31 19:21:20 | 12 | Miscellaneous Tesla Topic |
ab9ouk | [Discussion] Which of you were the lucky ones to make the December 31 cutoff today? | Today is the last day for the Federal tax incentive of $7 500 in a new Tesla purchase. Which ones were lucky to make the cutoff today and why did you (decide had to) wait until the last day for delivery? Please post stories and pictures! Tesla is the first automaker to cross the cutoff. It s an unprecedented milestone in the BEV industry. By my estimate the Federal government has supported just short of $3 billion in $7 500 incentives for Tesla vehicles. | gotfrank | 2018-12-31 18:21:09 | 22 | ecyjvq8 | Not everyone makes enough money to get the full tax credit back. I m only getting $3k | ilikethefinerthings | 2018-12-31 18:26:07 | 10 | Miscellaneous Tesla Topic |
ab9ouk | [Discussion] Which of you were the lucky ones to make the December 31 cutoff today? | Today is the last day for the Federal tax incentive of $7 500 in a new Tesla purchase. Which ones were lucky to make the cutoff today and why did you (decide had to) wait until the last day for delivery? Please post stories and pictures! Tesla is the first automaker to cross the cutoff. It s an unprecedented milestone in the BEV industry. By my estimate the Federal government has supported just short of $3 billion in $7 500 incentives for Tesla vehicles. | gotfrank | 2018-12-31 18:21:09 | 22 | ecyxc23 | And if they don t make the cutoff you might be able to convince them to mark it delivered today: https: pbs.twimg.com media DvxLVjiV4AAblaJ.jpg | fossilnews | 2018-12-31 21:07:17 | 7 | Miscellaneous Tesla Topic |
ab9ouk | [Discussion] Which of you were the lucky ones to make the December 31 cutoff today? | Today is the last day for the Federal tax incentive of $7 500 in a new Tesla purchase. Which ones were lucky to make the cutoff today and why did you (decide had to) wait until the last day for delivery? Please post stories and pictures! Tesla is the first automaker to cross the cutoff. It s an unprecedented milestone in the BEV industry. By my estimate the Federal government has supported just short of $3 billion in $7 500 incentives for Tesla vehicles. | gotfrank | 2018-12-31 18:21:09 | 22 | ed0lpkf | 2016 Volt Lease ends end of Feb 2019. Was hoping the standard range would become available by year end but it s apparent it won t. Wife and I had eyes set on either a Hyundai Kona or a Kia Niro EV. Nov 30 was the deadline for guaranteed delivery on the M3 but we were unsure about going with the mid range so we let that deadline pass. We went to the LA auto show to check out the new EV s. Kona was so small and compact that was a no for us. The Kia Niro EV was actually a pretty nice car. We were settling on choosing that as our new car to replace our Volt in February. We still liked the Model 3 but it was basically an extra $10k for it budget wise and we passed the guaranteed December delivery order date deadline of Nov 30. Friend texts me he pulled the trigger on a model 3 first week of December on a demo model in inventory. He gets the LR RWD. Loves it and says I should check what s in inventory. I get really interested. I call a local showroom no cars available in inventory. Then on Dec. 11 Elon tweets order now and if not delivered in time full refund. Talk with the wife we decided to place an order and if it doesn t deliver in time then it was not meant to be. Ordered 12 12 MR RWD White EAP. Got delivery date 12 27. Car delivered to our home. Crazy Tesla pulled it off and delivered two weeks after ordering. We re glad we pulled the trigger. Wife LOVES the car. Said she didn t really like the Kia but was settling for it as a reasonable option. Coincidentally night before delivery our Volt car charger craps out. We take it to the Chevy dealer that evening after taking delivery of the M3. The next day Chevy says portable charger cable is broke no longer functional and it s not covered under warranty. $600+ for a new car charger. We said screw that paid off the one payment remaining and returned our Volt lease to the dealer two days after receiving the Tesla. Everything ended up working out with the Tesla after all. Love this new Model 3. | primetime_7 | 2019-01-01 15:59:00 | 7 | Miscellaneous Tesla Topic |
ab9ouk | [Discussion] Which of you were the lucky ones to make the December 31 cutoff today? | Today is the last day for the Federal tax incentive of $7 500 in a new Tesla purchase. Which ones were lucky to make the cutoff today and why did you (decide had to) wait until the last day for delivery? Please post stories and pictures! Tesla is the first automaker to cross the cutoff. It s an unprecedented milestone in the BEV industry. By my estimate the Federal government has supported just short of $3 billion in $7 500 incentives for Tesla vehicles. | gotfrank | 2018-12-31 18:21:09 | 22 | ecyzz6z | Just picked ours up a couple of hours ago! | saabstory88 | 2018-12-31 21:37:19 | 6 | Miscellaneous Tesla Topic |
8wedkn | [Discussion] White M3 s are especially behind other colors? | Been reading and researching through comments here and at the tesla forums and it seems that Red White are colors that are behind the other colors? Does anyone else notice this? I would consider changing my color to have my delivery moved up...I was on the fence either way. | synoda | 2018-07-05 21:37:11 | 19 | e1uuid0 | I wouldn t put tooooo much stock into data from the forums and Reddit. It s not exactly a perfect sample I don t think. | [deleted] | 2018-07-05 21:49:24 | 5 | Miscellaneous Tesla Topic |
ak3fr7 | [Discussion] Who Has A Mid-Range Model 3 Rear-Wheel Drive? What Do You Think? Automotive | I m on the verge of buying a mid-range Model 3 RWD but that [Engineering Explained](https: youtu.be XzspO4-T7t4) video has freaked me out. Does the car feel sluggish off the line? I had a CVT Audi A4 in the past and that car drove me nuts when the CVT didn t behave. So to the folks that actually own the MR RWD M3 what do you think? Is the acceleration smooth and linear? Does the car feel powerful enough? What kind of efficiency and range are you actually getting? | CharlesP2009 | 2019-01-26 18:22:33 | 22 | ef15f8c | You re obviously going to get a much better performing car at the higher price. Neither are slow or sluggish by any means but it s entirely subjective and you will get nowhere asking someone else about it. You need to test drive. | tp1996 | 2019-01-26 18:29:06 | 12 | Miscellaneous Tesla Topic |
ak3fr7 | [Discussion] Who Has A Mid-Range Model 3 Rear-Wheel Drive? What Do You Think? Automotive | I m on the verge of buying a mid-range Model 3 RWD but that [Engineering Explained](https: youtu.be XzspO4-T7t4) video has freaked me out. Does the car feel sluggish off the line? I had a CVT Audi A4 in the past and that car drove me nuts when the CVT didn t behave. So to the folks that actually own the MR RWD M3 what do you think? Is the acceleration smooth and linear? Does the car feel powerful enough? What kind of efficiency and range are you actually getting? | CharlesP2009 | 2019-01-26 18:22:33 | 22 | ef1dj9r | I have a MR. To answer your questions: No the car doesn t feel sluggish. I ve actually never noticed a “delay” in response when flooring it as described by the EE video. Unless you re splitting hairs you push the pedal and the car goes. Yes acceleration is smooth and linear. Yes it feels powerful. I am able to plant my passengers into the back of their seats and put smiles on their faces. Sometimes I get an occasional squeal. 😂 Maybe louder squeals with the LR? Efficiency is good. Although if you don t have accessible charging at home or work or you live in a cold climate I would recommend the LR. I would also recommend the LR if you are going to be tracking the car or are a red-light-racer and price isn t an issue. BTW make sure you place your order by 2 1 19 to take advantage of the free 6 months (or 9 months if you haven t taken a test drive) supercharging. If you need a ref code let me know. I still have 2 left to give away. 😉 | anoiLex330 | 2019-01-26 19:52:12 | 10 | Miscellaneous Tesla Topic |
ak3fr7 | [Discussion] Who Has A Mid-Range Model 3 Rear-Wheel Drive? What Do You Think? Automotive | I m on the verge of buying a mid-range Model 3 RWD but that [Engineering Explained](https: youtu.be XzspO4-T7t4) video has freaked me out. Does the car feel sluggish off the line? I had a CVT Audi A4 in the past and that car drove me nuts when the CVT didn t behave. So to the folks that actually own the MR RWD M3 what do you think? Is the acceleration smooth and linear? Does the car feel powerful enough? What kind of efficiency and range are you actually getting? | CharlesP2009 | 2019-01-26 18:22:33 | 22 | ef1pj6c | A MR model 3 will feel more responsive than most cars especially something with a CVT. Nothing to worry about there. | Kaelang | 2019-01-26 22:07:28 | 9 | Miscellaneous Tesla Topic |
ak3fr7 | [Discussion] Who Has A Mid-Range Model 3 Rear-Wheel Drive? What Do You Think? Automotive | I m on the verge of buying a mid-range Model 3 RWD but that [Engineering Explained](https: youtu.be XzspO4-T7t4) video has freaked me out. Does the car feel sluggish off the line? I had a CVT Audi A4 in the past and that car drove me nuts when the CVT didn t behave. So to the folks that actually own the MR RWD M3 what do you think? Is the acceleration smooth and linear? Does the car feel powerful enough? What kind of efficiency and range are you actually getting? | CharlesP2009 | 2019-01-26 18:22:33 | 22 | ef1wnnl | I have taken around 60ish friends family coworkers and anyone else who wants to go on a test drive since I got mine in November (I think my record is 7 in one day :) EVERY SINGLE ONE had a similar reaction of holy ***! when I punch it for the first time. I d say 50% or so say the same line of it feels like a roller coaster! It s so awesome. I ve driven both P100D S and X a couple non-P Model S s as well as LR and Performance Model 3 (there s a Tesla center 2 minutes from my work) and it of course doesn t come close to any of the performance ones. It is slightly slower than the LR Model 3. But I m telling you it is PLENTY fast for anyone. Merging is so much fun punching it where it s safe still makes me smile every time and I have absolutely no trouble getting in front of or away from any cars when I need to. Anything faster is only for the fun of it. 3 880 miles so far I m at 297wh m lifetime. I get 250ish with warm weather but as many have discussed the cold affects it a lot. There are a couple easy things to do to get a better range in the cold like pre conditioning your car and scheduling charging to finish right before you are about to leave. I ll get around 350wh m for the first 30 or so miles with limited regen before it s warmed up completely then it ll drop to about 260-270wh m for the remaining highway drive after that. Fun fact - I ve paid $120 in total electricity for almost $4k miles of driving. That s $360 in savings compared to a gas car that gets 25mpg at $3 gallon. Boom. If you can afford the LR of course go for it mainly for the range alone. But if you are like me and can only afford the MR before stretching your budget too thin I PROMISE you will love it! Final thought - I live in PA where the winter is rough. I slipped twice during the first snow so I begrudgingly ordered the $2k winter tires. Even though that hurt the wallet I m so happy I did. It s worlds different for snow. If you can t afford LR DM but live in a winter climate 100% budget for the $2k in winter tires. Don t get off brand get the Tesla ones they won t give you any issues with Regen issues like others have reported and they have foam inside them to keep the noise down. They also come with their own rims and aeros which is awesome to have extra of! Makes switching them easier too! They weigh a crap ton though. DM me with any questions you have I d love to help as much as I can. I ordered the MR the day it was announced so I didn t have anything to go off of so I know the feeling of being a little lost not knowing if I made the right decision or not. Good luck :) | Mikeyp2424 | 2019-01-26 23:21:26 | 9 | Miscellaneous Tesla Topic |
ak3fr7 | [Discussion] Who Has A Mid-Range Model 3 Rear-Wheel Drive? What Do You Think? Automotive | I m on the verge of buying a mid-range Model 3 RWD but that [Engineering Explained](https: youtu.be XzspO4-T7t4) video has freaked me out. Does the car feel sluggish off the line? I had a CVT Audi A4 in the past and that car drove me nuts when the CVT didn t behave. So to the folks that actually own the MR RWD M3 what do you think? Is the acceleration smooth and linear? Does the car feel powerful enough? What kind of efficiency and range are you actually getting? | CharlesP2009 | 2019-01-26 18:22:33 | 22 | ef1fc4z | I own a MR RWD not slugging at all to me honest I ve owned an EVO 8 and the butt dyno feels very similar on paper they are quite similar as well. As for efficiency I ve done extensive data collection on mine and I average between 4.7-5 miles per Kwh. Under spirited driving it will drop down to approximately 3.5 range. Depending on how you charge electricity rates and efficiency you can expect to pay between $0.2-$0.11 per mile if you can t charge for free. To be honest owning an EV is more of a lifestyle change than anything else you can t just fill up with gas per say like you would with an ICE vehicle but should recharge every day or other day depending on your range use drain and recharge don t top it off after each trip. Kinda reminds me of a healthy diet you don t just do it for a season then give it up you make changes to support the behavior because it is better for you and others around you. | ss68and66 | 2019-01-26 20:12:40 | 8 | Miscellaneous Tesla Topic |
ak3fr7 | [Discussion] Who Has A Mid-Range Model 3 Rear-Wheel Drive? What Do You Think? Automotive | I m on the verge of buying a mid-range Model 3 RWD but that [Engineering Explained](https: youtu.be XzspO4-T7t4) video has freaked me out. Does the car feel sluggish off the line? I had a CVT Audi A4 in the past and that car drove me nuts when the CVT didn t behave. So to the folks that actually own the MR RWD M3 what do you think? Is the acceleration smooth and linear? Does the car feel powerful enough? What kind of efficiency and range are you actually getting? | CharlesP2009 | 2019-01-26 18:22:33 | 22 | ef1q6pq | I test drove the LR and ultimately bought a MR. I ve floored it in both of them but I can t really tell the difference. They both feel plenty fast. MR definitely NOT sluggush. It s smooth and linear and very powerful. I average about 230 Wh mile in Southern California weather. You can t go wrong either way but I didn t want to sink all my money into the LR. The MR is plenty enough for me and for most people I think. | kampung_boy | 2019-01-26 22:14:04 | 7 | Miscellaneous Tesla Topic |
ak3fr7 | [Discussion] Who Has A Mid-Range Model 3 Rear-Wheel Drive? What Do You Think? Automotive | I m on the verge of buying a mid-range Model 3 RWD but that [Engineering Explained](https: youtu.be XzspO4-T7t4) video has freaked me out. Does the car feel sluggish off the line? I had a CVT Audi A4 in the past and that car drove me nuts when the CVT didn t behave. So to the folks that actually own the MR RWD M3 what do you think? Is the acceleration smooth and linear? Does the car feel powerful enough? What kind of efficiency and range are you actually getting? | CharlesP2009 | 2019-01-26 18:22:33 | 22 | ef1n1vh | I went from a VW Golf TDI to my MR Model 3. It was night and day change but I m sure it would be similar for a switch to most any electric vehicle. Feels better than the Leaf I test drove though by a wide margin. Driving the TDI to get diesel for the trip to sell it was less than pleasant. Can t compare to the other versions past my test drive experience with the LR RWD in which I didn t notice much of a difference. Acceleration is great and smooth. Yes it does seem to work better at around 20-60 than 0-20 but it s still so fast off the line I m still amazed a month and a half later. Finally got my first full month electrical bill. I drive about 35 miles round trip a day maybe 6 days a week average. My diesel cost at around 3 bucks a gallon was about 85 bucks a month in the autumn. My electricity bill for a full normal winter month wound up about 48 bucks more. Efficiency usually sits somewhere between 230 and 280 wh per mile depending on just how cold it is how I drive and how warm I keep the cabin. Love the car. Might have preferred a LR RWD but I dont mind because the MR battery is plenty big and resulted in less emissions to make. Though the slightly better efficiency of the LR eats into that a tiny bit. | que-bert | 2019-01-26 21:41:56 | 6 | Miscellaneous Tesla Topic |
ak3fr7 | [Discussion] Who Has A Mid-Range Model 3 Rear-Wheel Drive? What Do You Think? Automotive | I m on the verge of buying a mid-range Model 3 RWD but that [Engineering Explained](https: youtu.be XzspO4-T7t4) video has freaked me out. Does the car feel sluggish off the line? I had a CVT Audi A4 in the past and that car drove me nuts when the CVT didn t behave. So to the folks that actually own the MR RWD M3 what do you think? Is the acceleration smooth and linear? Does the car feel powerful enough? What kind of efficiency and range are you actually getting? | CharlesP2009 | 2019-01-26 18:22:33 | 22 | ef1uj71 | I went with the MR RWD because at the time it was $4k cheaper than the LR RWD and I thought it was only a difference of 50 miles (the LR RWD actually has better range than the EPA estimate). I regret not going with the LR RWD. It s still way faster and more responsive than any other car I ve owned (Prius and Corolla). | powercorruption | 2019-01-26 22:58:58 | 6 | Miscellaneous Tesla Topic |
ak3fr7 | [Discussion] Who Has A Mid-Range Model 3 Rear-Wheel Drive? What Do You Think? Automotive | I m on the verge of buying a mid-range Model 3 RWD but that [Engineering Explained](https: youtu.be XzspO4-T7t4) video has freaked me out. Does the car feel sluggish off the line? I had a CVT Audi A4 in the past and that car drove me nuts when the CVT didn t behave. So to the folks that actually own the MR RWD M3 what do you think? Is the acceleration smooth and linear? Does the car feel powerful enough? What kind of efficiency and range are you actually getting? | CharlesP2009 | 2019-01-26 18:22:33 | 22 | ef1krbg | I own a MR and coming from a V6 Accord the MR feels much quicker more responsive and an absolute pleasure to drive. Have done road trips from Philadelphia to DC no range issues at all. | AsherKarate | 2019-01-26 21:15:31 | 5 | Miscellaneous Tesla Topic |
7sgqev | [Discussion] Who is able to configure yet you are holding out due to SR AWD other reason and why? | S owner got the ability to configure the Model 3 last year but I am currently unable to pull the trigger for a multitude of reasons including finalizing a sale of my S waiting to see if AWD will be released soon white interior and how long? Anyone else in the same boat and why are you waiting? Come join me in this first world problem misery! | cnastyu | 2018-01-23 18:59:36 | 23 | dt4nn1x | Previous owner waiting for SR and White Interior. | Massive-Johnson | 2018-01-23 19:40:51 | 11 | Miscellaneous Tesla Topic |
7sgqev | [Discussion] Who is able to configure yet you are holding out due to SR AWD other reason and why? | S owner got the ability to configure the Model 3 last year but I am currently unable to pull the trigger for a multitude of reasons including finalizing a sale of my S waiting to see if AWD will be released soon white interior and how long? Anyone else in the same boat and why are you waiting? Come join me in this first world problem misery! | cnastyu | 2018-01-23 18:59:36 | 23 | dt4lw2h | Black interior is a hard veto for my wife. I really wanted AWD. Not sure we need long range. We have 245 miles range on our 2013 S and don t have any need for more. There was one time where we had an out-and-back where did use the entire range but now there are almost twice as many SC in our state so probably not needed. Airfare is so cheap we rarely do road trips. | AnthropometricRut | 2018-01-23 19:13:58 | 9 | Miscellaneous Tesla Topic |
7sgqev | [Discussion] Who is able to configure yet you are holding out due to SR AWD other reason and why? | S owner got the ability to configure the Model 3 last year but I am currently unable to pull the trigger for a multitude of reasons including finalizing a sale of my S waiting to see if AWD will be released soon white interior and how long? Anyone else in the same boat and why are you waiting? Come join me in this first world problem misery! | cnastyu | 2018-01-23 18:59:36 | 23 | dt4rrx5 | Got the invite a few weeks ago but am waiting for white interior though not indefinitely. I m also very interested to find out the pricing and specs for AWD though am 90% sure I will get RWD and a set of winter wheels+tires. I prefer all-wheel drive but don t absolutely have to have it and I m concerned about inflating the cost further. In general I hoped that Tesla would start communicating more details about the cars once they started shipping to non employees. Definitely disappointed on that front but the car itself looks great. | notsooriginal | 2018-01-23 20:44:54 | 9 | Miscellaneous Tesla Topic |
7sgqev | [Discussion] Who is able to configure yet you are holding out due to SR AWD other reason and why? | S owner got the ability to configure the Model 3 last year but I am currently unable to pull the trigger for a multitude of reasons including finalizing a sale of my S waiting to see if AWD will be released soon white interior and how long? Anyone else in the same boat and why are you waiting? Come join me in this first world problem misery! | cnastyu | 2018-01-23 18:59:36 | 23 | dt4skkb | Right Hand drive (!!) AWD LR white interior. Guess I ll be waiting a long time yet...... | reubenmitchell | 2018-01-23 20:57:07 | 9 | Miscellaneous Tesla Topic |
7sgqev | [Discussion] Who is able to configure yet you are holding out due to SR AWD other reason and why? | S owner got the ability to configure the Model 3 last year but I am currently unable to pull the trigger for a multitude of reasons including finalizing a sale of my S waiting to see if AWD will be released soon white interior and how long? Anyone else in the same boat and why are you waiting? Come join me in this first world problem misery! | cnastyu | 2018-01-23 18:59:36 | 23 | dt4os8o | Other reason: need to test drive. Seems completely insane to buy a car on rumor marketing without any first-hand experience with it. edit: car not care ... derp | m0nk_3y_gw | 2018-01-23 19:58:30 | 7 | Miscellaneous Tesla Topic |
7sgqev | [Discussion] Who is able to configure yet you are holding out due to SR AWD other reason and why? | S owner got the ability to configure the Model 3 last year but I am currently unable to pull the trigger for a multitude of reasons including finalizing a sale of my S waiting to see if AWD will be released soon white interior and how long? Anyone else in the same boat and why are you waiting? Come join me in this first world problem misery! | cnastyu | 2018-01-23 18:59:36 | 23 | dt4nh30 | I got my invite back in November. I m waiting on standard battery. I used to have a 60kWh Model S and that had 208 miles brand new. I don t need the range here in SoCal where we have chargers every 5 feet. Would rather spend the $9K on autopilot and other upgrades. Although I constantly check my Tesla account to see if standard range is available yet. It still says early 2018 . **One interesting note:** despite changing the hold my place option to March 2018 several dozen times if I log out and log back in... it automatically changes back to Feb 2018. I have never ever selected Feb 2018 as my delivery date because I want March so I can put some of my tax return money towards the car. And yet it continues to switch me back to Feb 2018 every single time. This may be a error in their website design... but I m hoping its really Tesla telling me I m one of the first to get Standard Range and its coming in the next month or so. *crosses fingers* | dieabetic | 2018-01-23 19:38:15 | 6 | Miscellaneous Tesla Topic |
7ndckp | [Discussion] Who is going all-electric this year? | Especially with the Model 3 this year who among us will have only pure electric cars this year? Wife and I have been 100% electric for 2 years. Who is joining me? | _ohm_my | 2018-01-01 04:57:15 | 68 | ds0zmkx | I might if Tesla gets to deliver the Model 3 in western europe by the end of the year. | _kempert | 2018-01-01 05:18:21 | 20 | Miscellaneous Tesla Topic |
7ndckp | [Discussion] Who is going all-electric this year? | Especially with the Model 3 this year who among us will have only pure electric cars this year? Wife and I have been 100% electric for 2 years. Who is joining me? | _ohm_my | 2018-01-01 04:57:15 | 68 | ds16cvq | Does an electric bike count? | Appbeza | 2018-01-01 09:54:22 | 12 | Miscellaneous Tesla Topic |
7ndckp | [Discussion] Who is going all-electric this year? | Especially with the Model 3 this year who among us will have only pure electric cars this year? Wife and I have been 100% electric for 2 years. Who is joining me? | _ohm_my | 2018-01-01 04:57:15 | 68 | ds11pll | Technically yes. Selling my ‘99 RAV4 for Model 3 if my wife isn t pregnant with twins (she thinks it is.) If it s twins Model X will be in the future in exchange of just about all the disposable income. I say technically because my wife has the ‘16 Volt and it will be only used in town as it s lease still has 18 months and 15 000 miles left. It will stay in town on electric only because we can t afford to take it down to gas mileage-wise. So yeah fully electric in 2018! | Skate_a_book | 2018-01-01 06:29:37 | 7 | Miscellaneous Tesla Topic |
7ndckp | [Discussion] Who is going all-electric this year? | Especially with the Model 3 this year who among us will have only pure electric cars this year? Wife and I have been 100% electric for 2 years. Who is joining me? | _ohm_my | 2018-01-01 04:57:15 | 68 | ds18e4f | I am since i was born. I live in Switzerland and only use trains. They also run on 90% hydropower and 10% from nuclear. I would love to own a Tesla tough :D | relevant_rhino | 2018-01-01 11:46:43 | 7 | Miscellaneous Tesla Topic |
7ndckp | [Discussion] Who is going all-electric this year? | Especially with the Model 3 this year who among us will have only pure electric cars this year? Wife and I have been 100% electric for 2 years. Who is joining me? | _ohm_my | 2018-01-01 04:57:15 | 68 | ds1ev6g | I vowed to myself to never buy another internal combustion engine two years ago. Now love my electric chainsaw and leaf blower. Can t wait for my first electric car in 2018. Unfortunately it ll be a few more years until we need to get rid of the next car. | King_in-the_North | 2018-01-01 15:58:17 | 5 | Miscellaneous Tesla Topic |
88i2z8 | [Discussion] Why haters are hoping for Tesla to go bankrupt? What can we do to prevent this? | If Tesla goes bankrupt I see the world is going backwards and other automakers will be less eager to push for electrification. Why don t they care about the future of this world? Sure money and profitability is important but few billions losses surely are insignificant compared to a better future which our children and grandchildren will inherit. What can we do to prevent this from happening? | dogetycoon | 2018-03-31 11:36:23 | 36 | dwkqje7 | Some of the haters will make money if Tesla goes bankrupt. The hedge fund manager that kicked of this past week s bankruptcy hysteria has a short position on the stock. Others just like to see something they dislike fail. | jonjiv | 2018-03-31 11:47:21 | 59 | Tesla Dominance in EV Batteries |
88i2z8 | [Discussion] Why haters are hoping for Tesla to go bankrupt? What can we do to prevent this? | If Tesla goes bankrupt I see the world is going backwards and other automakers will be less eager to push for electrification. Why don t they care about the future of this world? Sure money and profitability is important but few billions losses surely are insignificant compared to a better future which our children and grandchildren will inherit. What can we do to prevent this from happening? | dogetycoon | 2018-03-31 11:36:23 | 36 | dwkuw57 | Dont worry about that. They have endless customers dying for their products those type of companies dont go bankrupt. The reason you hear the B word is shorts need to strike fear. Stop being fearful this is a volatile stock that goes through these things. This year the model 3 will be doing so much business come December this will be a distant memory | dwaynereade | 2018-03-31 13:49:35 | 37 | Tesla Dominance in EV Batteries |
88i2z8 | [Discussion] Why haters are hoping for Tesla to go bankrupt? What can we do to prevent this? | If Tesla goes bankrupt I see the world is going backwards and other automakers will be less eager to push for electrification. Why don t they care about the future of this world? Sure money and profitability is important but few billions losses surely are insignificant compared to a better future which our children and grandchildren will inherit. What can we do to prevent this from happening? | dogetycoon | 2018-03-31 11:36:23 | 36 | dwkqqbq | Well the straightest path to bankruptcy for Tesla is not being able to produce enough Model 3s. They need the cash flow. That s why they are producing the most expensive Model 3s first. The ‘Haters group will likely grow if Tesla doesn t fulfill their promises. I mean they re producing a little over 1000 cars a month when they said it would be 5000 by end of 2017. And going back further the Model X was delayed significantly. Every other car manufacturer is beginning production of electric vehicles so I don t see the world going in the wrong direction either. At the very least Tesla needs to get their production line fixed and they might be able to stay afloat. | wremingt | 2018-03-31 11:54:04 | 21 | Tesla Dominance in EV Batteries |
88i2z8 | [Discussion] Why haters are hoping for Tesla to go bankrupt? What can we do to prevent this? | If Tesla goes bankrupt I see the world is going backwards and other automakers will be less eager to push for electrification. Why don t they care about the future of this world? Sure money and profitability is important but few billions losses surely are insignificant compared to a better future which our children and grandchildren will inherit. What can we do to prevent this from happening? | dogetycoon | 2018-03-31 11:36:23 | 36 | dwkyix5 | Jesus. This was painful to read. Firstly the good news. The cat s already out of the bag. EV s are here to stay. At the very least this will be Tesla s legacy. Hooray. Now the bad news. Tesla is in big financial trouble. It s burning cash at an eye-watering rate and the debt markets are no longer an option. The only viable way for Tesla to raise money now is to go to the stock market but this will just cause additional dilution and push the share price down even further. Honestly I have no idea why Tesla didn t do this last year when the share price was north of $350. But I m sure this isn t news to you. Here s the thing though: people have been trying to warn others about this for literally years now but for whatever reason most have chosen to ignore the warnings and have instead embraced the narrative Elon has created and have invested with Tesla. This is a classic case of fundamentalists vs fundamentals . I don t think anyone takes pleasure in seeing Tesla slowly die. I certainly don t. People will lose jobs. It ll hurt. But calling people who point out the many flaws of Tesla s capital structure as haters is childish. > What can we do to prevent this from happening? Stop treating Elon Musk as a god and Tesla as a religion. Hold the company to account. Stop being distracted by ridiculous publicity stunts. Stop buying their shares. Stop forgiving Musk s multiple broken promises. Perhaps if some of Tesla s many fans had done some of this when the company could have been saved then we wouldn t be in this situation. | Lustenberg | 2018-03-31 15:07:54 | 17 | Tesla Dominance in EV Batteries |
88i2z8 | [Discussion] Why haters are hoping for Tesla to go bankrupt? What can we do to prevent this? | If Tesla goes bankrupt I see the world is going backwards and other automakers will be less eager to push for electrification. Why don t they care about the future of this world? Sure money and profitability is important but few billions losses surely are insignificant compared to a better future which our children and grandchildren will inherit. What can we do to prevent this from happening? | dogetycoon | 2018-03-31 11:36:23 | 36 | dwkrwej | You can start by stop using childish terms like haters to describe criticism. It just makes the fan base look ignorant and ridiculous. Why don t they care about the future of this world? Also it s virtue signalling ignorant comments like this that make us look like a bunch global warming anti science fanatics. | putittogetherNOW | 2018-03-31 12:31:05 | 11 | Tesla Dominance in EV Batteries |
88i2z8 | [Discussion] Why haters are hoping for Tesla to go bankrupt? What can we do to prevent this? | If Tesla goes bankrupt I see the world is going backwards and other automakers will be less eager to push for electrification. Why don t they care about the future of this world? Sure money and profitability is important but few billions losses surely are insignificant compared to a better future which our children and grandchildren will inherit. What can we do to prevent this from happening? | dogetycoon | 2018-03-31 11:36:23 | 36 | dwkram9 | Put in reservations for the new roadster! Several under various pseudonyms. | courtlandre | 2018-03-31 12:12:26 | 10 | Tesla Dominance in EV Batteries |
88i2z8 | [Discussion] Why haters are hoping for Tesla to go bankrupt? What can we do to prevent this? | If Tesla goes bankrupt I see the world is going backwards and other automakers will be less eager to push for electrification. Why don t they care about the future of this world? Sure money and profitability is important but few billions losses surely are insignificant compared to a better future which our children and grandchildren will inherit. What can we do to prevent this from happening? | dogetycoon | 2018-03-31 11:36:23 | 36 | dwkqnuf | In terms of what we can do buying Tesla products and shares is all we can do. I think the haters come from multiple motivations .. there is a spectrum of opinion not all critics are haters. It is mainly down to Tesla to derive sufficient income to meet expenses and interest payments.. I m not that negative demand for all Tesla products is strong and will remain strong. The need to get better at producing products to meet that demand | M3FanOZ | 2018-03-31 11:51:39 | 8 | Tesla Dominance in EV Batteries |
88i2z8 | [Discussion] Why haters are hoping for Tesla to go bankrupt? What can we do to prevent this? | If Tesla goes bankrupt I see the world is going backwards and other automakers will be less eager to push for electrification. Why don t they care about the future of this world? Sure money and profitability is important but few billions losses surely are insignificant compared to a better future which our children and grandchildren will inherit. What can we do to prevent this from happening? | dogetycoon | 2018-03-31 11:36:23 | 36 | dwl1l79 | I m not sure there is anything you can do. I mean there are literally hundreds of thousands of people waiting to hand over money to Tesla for a Model 3. They aren t short of customers just cars to sell them. It s all on Tesla themselves to get through the next couple of quarters and ramp Model 3 production. | Ukleafowner | 2018-03-31 16:07:22 | 8 | Tesla Dominance in EV Batteries |
88i2z8 | [Discussion] Why haters are hoping for Tesla to go bankrupt? What can we do to prevent this? | If Tesla goes bankrupt I see the world is going backwards and other automakers will be less eager to push for electrification. Why don t they care about the future of this world? Sure money and profitability is important but few billions losses surely are insignificant compared to a better future which our children and grandchildren will inherit. What can we do to prevent this from happening? | dogetycoon | 2018-03-31 11:36:23 | 36 | dwkqkdo | what we can do to prevent this? buy a model s or x. also if tesla went bankrupt i think either amazon alphabet or apple would at least show an interest in buying tesla. imagine them being allowed to burn more cash in the next few years without having to worry about it. :D | Rahjhh5 | 2018-03-31 11:48:21 | 6 | Tesla Dominance in EV Batteries |
88i2z8 | [Discussion] Why haters are hoping for Tesla to go bankrupt? What can we do to prevent this? | If Tesla goes bankrupt I see the world is going backwards and other automakers will be less eager to push for electrification. Why don t they care about the future of this world? Sure money and profitability is important but few billions losses surely are insignificant compared to a better future which our children and grandchildren will inherit. What can we do to prevent this from happening? | dogetycoon | 2018-03-31 11:36:23 | 36 | dwl1hj8 | What we can do not found here so far: EV infrastructure California got lobbied by Toyota and possibly Honda to spend clean air money for H2 stations. Not enough EV owners wrote in so the lobbyists won. H2 is currently made from natural gas and possibly the last hurrah for fossil fuels. https: cafcp.org blog report-ab-8-attaining-100-hydrogen-refueling-stations Drive your Tesla as a representative. The occasional drag race win is good cutting a person off because It s a Tesla get out of my way is bad. Give neighbors a lift. I ferry kids and adults around all the time. A few are now thinking Tesla are viable for their lifestyle. Keep the faith. Like Apple in the early days Tesla needs evangelists as well as investors. Not everyone realizes Tesla s mission is part of preventing an extinction level event - or cares. That s OK some will listen some will not. | duke_of_alinor | 2018-03-31 16:05:26 | 6 | Tesla Dominance in EV Batteries |
88i2z8 | [Discussion] Why haters are hoping for Tesla to go bankrupt? What can we do to prevent this? | If Tesla goes bankrupt I see the world is going backwards and other automakers will be less eager to push for electrification. Why don t they care about the future of this world? Sure money and profitability is important but few billions losses surely are insignificant compared to a better future which our children and grandchildren will inherit. What can we do to prevent this from happening? | dogetycoon | 2018-03-31 11:36:23 | 36 | dwlc70n | > If Tesla goes bankrupt I see the world is going backwards and other automakers will be less eager to push for electrification. China will lead in EVs. BYD just sold 8000 different EVs in February | NyashaT | 2018-03-31 19:25:50 | 6 | Tesla Dominance in EV Batteries |
88i2z8 | [Discussion] Why haters are hoping for Tesla to go bankrupt? What can we do to prevent this? | If Tesla goes bankrupt I see the world is going backwards and other automakers will be less eager to push for electrification. Why don t they care about the future of this world? Sure money and profitability is important but few billions losses surely are insignificant compared to a better future which our children and grandchildren will inherit. What can we do to prevent this from happening? | dogetycoon | 2018-03-31 11:36:23 | 36 | dwkxls6 | I can t speak for all the “haters” but I m not hoping for them to go bankrupt at all. I just think they will. | CrimsonEnigma | 2018-03-31 14:49:11 | 5 | Tesla Dominance in EV Batteries |
88i2z8 | [Discussion] Why haters are hoping for Tesla to go bankrupt? What can we do to prevent this? | If Tesla goes bankrupt I see the world is going backwards and other automakers will be less eager to push for electrification. Why don t they care about the future of this world? Sure money and profitability is important but few billions losses surely are insignificant compared to a better future which our children and grandchildren will inherit. What can we do to prevent this from happening? | dogetycoon | 2018-03-31 11:36:23 | 36 | dwkxqva | It comes down to Tesla to make reachable goals public and keep the difficult goals for themselves. The backlash is mostly due to consistent failure by the factory to reach frequently revised growth estimates. Tesla is making themselves more vulnerable by regularly slipping on the targets. | JackFrostoo7 | 2018-03-31 14:52:04 | 5 | Tesla Dominance in EV Batteries |
as4bav | [Discussion] Why I think you should not prepay for FSD | People have been asking me in HW3 threads on reddit and on TMC if they should prepay for FSD (to lock-in the current pricing) and separately if they should wait for the newer HW3-equipped cars instead of buying now. So in order to make my answers more visible I am doing this feel free to chime in with your perspective too. So I ll start with a word of caution: Tesla s history of fulfilling retrofit promises is not exactly great (remember they d rather you buy a new car - a lot more profit that way): - (paid!) P90D-> P100D battery upgrade took a lot longer than promised and was filled with frustration: https: teslamotorsclub.com tmc posts 2556184 - Lighted vanity mirrors - did not happen: https: teslamotorsclub.com tmc posts 169977 - AP1 development will continue despite HW2 arrival: did not happen - Your car will meet you at the porch summon - did not happen people that tried to pursue it (on ap1) were told if it s not in the manual it was not promised - For new model 3 owners - also consider the wording in the purchase agreement (not sure if same in CN and EU): h t https: twitter.com scottwolf_arch status 1066314684863795200 > [Prior agreements oral statements negotiations communications or representations about the Vehicle sold under this Agreement are superseded by this Agreement. Terms relating to the purchase not expressly contained herein are not binding](https: www.tesla.com order download-order-agreement?country=US) So don t just blindly trust what the tesla.com says only trust what the purchase agreement lists! AP1 owners never got what they were promised. Also since the promise was to only to retrofit a new computer - if you are on a HW2.0 car - you d be with the old worse Bosch radar and RCCC cameras (= no dashcam) and no redundancy. Retrofitting new radar and ep. the e-fuses is very unlikely - major wiring harness change! And god-forbid there s another sensor suite change meanwhile - that would mean even hw2.5 would be on subpar sensor suite with unknown performance. (I am not saying it s likely but it is possible and it happened before very stealthily remember the first [ hw2.5 is nothingburger statements from Tesla!](https: electrek.co 2017 08 09 tesla-autopilot-2-5-hardware-computer-autonomous-driving ) ) Also remember when you pay cash at time of upgrade (even if price is somewhat more) you will likely get much higher priority vs when you already paid so there s no downside to place you last in line (see model3 reservations for example of how this played out). And the there s not even a timeline when HW3 would actually make any meaningful difference in performance after all current software is not even at the promised EAP level (and it s been 2+ years since EAP was finished and was only undergoing final testing and validation if you believe original announcement. Meanwhile here in the real world we are on 3rd total rewrite of the codebase and cannot even read the speed signs yet) Look at all the people that prepaid FSD back in 2016 - how well did it work for them? And as they say final 10% of work take 95% of time. Also did you know first batch of hw2.5 was stealth-recalled due to overheating problems? Unlikely any retrofits would happen until HW stabilizes - who knows how long it takes and the happy new owners of hw3 cars might be not so happy for quite a while initially (just look at hw2 owners). Also consider crash risks - if you get into an accident chances are the car would be totalled so whatever software-only upgrades you have would be lost (FSD is NOT transferrable between cars). So you see there are lots of risks and the upside is just fixing the price of a potential upgrade who knows when if at all? (what if HW3 will not achieve FSD and HW4 would be needed in another few years? and HW3 is to only achieve full EAP promised stuff (like that smart summon)?) There s also a very real chance the price cannot be retroactively increased for existing owners because of how the current price is advertised. With all of this in mind - I don t recommend you to prepay for FSD. Enjoy what you have now! When the time comes you can evaluate the options in a lot more informed way. Assuming you still have the car and like what you see and so on. I should add that I prepaid for FSD in Jan 2017 and then regretted it. But because Tesla bought back my car as a lemon for the full price in December 2017 I had a rare chance of a do-over and I sure did nto make that mistake again when I bought another one in March 2018. In a similar vein if you REALLY want a Tesla car and can afford it NOW - buy it now and enjoy a known quantity. If you cannot afford it now or if you don t LIKE what s offered now then wait until you can afford it or when something you like is offered and look at everything at that point in time. It s really hard to predict the future after all. I know some people consider the prepayment money as a grant to Tesla to speed up the development - if you truly believe in something like this there are still better ways that better protect you: - You can invest in Tesla stock and if FSD happens - imagine the explosion in the stock price that would follow! And these money are transferrable to your next Tesla should there be a delay in development or something happened to your old car too! - You can also invest the money in some other ways and be diversified (which apparently is very important too according to investment advisors) - If you want it to be a free gift to Elon Tesla - do it as a free gift instead - it allows them to have more cash without incurring the liability on the book so the benefit is again bigger - In the end it s your money of course but do choose wisely I am sure you worked hard to earn them! EDIT - addition from another comment below: since I checked what FSD actually affords you in mytesla page I was a bit shocked. Here s the full description: > Full Self-Driving Capability > All you will need to do is get in and tell your car where to go and your Tesla will figure out the optimal route. Please note that Self-Driving functionality is dependent upon extensive software validation and regulatory approval which may vary widely by jurisdiction. BUY So.. a glorified navigation no actual driving involved? This nicely aligns with Elon s remarks from the last earnings call that we already have FSD on highways implying NoA IS FSD (perhaps with ULC sprinkled in once deemed safe) | greentheonly | 2019-02-19 00:44:14 | 167 | egrowzu | I don t do kickstarters even for Tesla. When they ship the product I ll consider it. | TheKobayashiMoron | 2019-02-19 01:02:04 | 40 | Tesla Autopilot Performance Review |
as4bav | [Discussion] Why I think you should not prepay for FSD | People have been asking me in HW3 threads on reddit and on TMC if they should prepay for FSD (to lock-in the current pricing) and separately if they should wait for the newer HW3-equipped cars instead of buying now. So in order to make my answers more visible I am doing this feel free to chime in with your perspective too. So I ll start with a word of caution: Tesla s history of fulfilling retrofit promises is not exactly great (remember they d rather you buy a new car - a lot more profit that way): - (paid!) P90D-> P100D battery upgrade took a lot longer than promised and was filled with frustration: https: teslamotorsclub.com tmc posts 2556184 - Lighted vanity mirrors - did not happen: https: teslamotorsclub.com tmc posts 169977 - AP1 development will continue despite HW2 arrival: did not happen - Your car will meet you at the porch summon - did not happen people that tried to pursue it (on ap1) were told if it s not in the manual it was not promised - For new model 3 owners - also consider the wording in the purchase agreement (not sure if same in CN and EU): h t https: twitter.com scottwolf_arch status 1066314684863795200 > [Prior agreements oral statements negotiations communications or representations about the Vehicle sold under this Agreement are superseded by this Agreement. Terms relating to the purchase not expressly contained herein are not binding](https: www.tesla.com order download-order-agreement?country=US) So don t just blindly trust what the tesla.com says only trust what the purchase agreement lists! AP1 owners never got what they were promised. Also since the promise was to only to retrofit a new computer - if you are on a HW2.0 car - you d be with the old worse Bosch radar and RCCC cameras (= no dashcam) and no redundancy. Retrofitting new radar and ep. the e-fuses is very unlikely - major wiring harness change! And god-forbid there s another sensor suite change meanwhile - that would mean even hw2.5 would be on subpar sensor suite with unknown performance. (I am not saying it s likely but it is possible and it happened before very stealthily remember the first [ hw2.5 is nothingburger statements from Tesla!](https: electrek.co 2017 08 09 tesla-autopilot-2-5-hardware-computer-autonomous-driving ) ) Also remember when you pay cash at time of upgrade (even if price is somewhat more) you will likely get much higher priority vs when you already paid so there s no downside to place you last in line (see model3 reservations for example of how this played out). And the there s not even a timeline when HW3 would actually make any meaningful difference in performance after all current software is not even at the promised EAP level (and it s been 2+ years since EAP was finished and was only undergoing final testing and validation if you believe original announcement. Meanwhile here in the real world we are on 3rd total rewrite of the codebase and cannot even read the speed signs yet) Look at all the people that prepaid FSD back in 2016 - how well did it work for them? And as they say final 10% of work take 95% of time. Also did you know first batch of hw2.5 was stealth-recalled due to overheating problems? Unlikely any retrofits would happen until HW stabilizes - who knows how long it takes and the happy new owners of hw3 cars might be not so happy for quite a while initially (just look at hw2 owners). Also consider crash risks - if you get into an accident chances are the car would be totalled so whatever software-only upgrades you have would be lost (FSD is NOT transferrable between cars). So you see there are lots of risks and the upside is just fixing the price of a potential upgrade who knows when if at all? (what if HW3 will not achieve FSD and HW4 would be needed in another few years? and HW3 is to only achieve full EAP promised stuff (like that smart summon)?) There s also a very real chance the price cannot be retroactively increased for existing owners because of how the current price is advertised. With all of this in mind - I don t recommend you to prepay for FSD. Enjoy what you have now! When the time comes you can evaluate the options in a lot more informed way. Assuming you still have the car and like what you see and so on. I should add that I prepaid for FSD in Jan 2017 and then regretted it. But because Tesla bought back my car as a lemon for the full price in December 2017 I had a rare chance of a do-over and I sure did nto make that mistake again when I bought another one in March 2018. In a similar vein if you REALLY want a Tesla car and can afford it NOW - buy it now and enjoy a known quantity. If you cannot afford it now or if you don t LIKE what s offered now then wait until you can afford it or when something you like is offered and look at everything at that point in time. It s really hard to predict the future after all. I know some people consider the prepayment money as a grant to Tesla to speed up the development - if you truly believe in something like this there are still better ways that better protect you: - You can invest in Tesla stock and if FSD happens - imagine the explosion in the stock price that would follow! And these money are transferrable to your next Tesla should there be a delay in development or something happened to your old car too! - You can also invest the money in some other ways and be diversified (which apparently is very important too according to investment advisors) - If you want it to be a free gift to Elon Tesla - do it as a free gift instead - it allows them to have more cash without incurring the liability on the book so the benefit is again bigger - In the end it s your money of course but do choose wisely I am sure you worked hard to earn them! EDIT - addition from another comment below: since I checked what FSD actually affords you in mytesla page I was a bit shocked. Here s the full description: > Full Self-Driving Capability > All you will need to do is get in and tell your car where to go and your Tesla will figure out the optimal route. Please note that Self-Driving functionality is dependent upon extensive software validation and regulatory approval which may vary widely by jurisdiction. BUY So.. a glorified navigation no actual driving involved? This nicely aligns with Elon s remarks from the last earnings call that we already have FSD on highways implying NoA IS FSD (perhaps with ULC sprinkled in once deemed safe) | greentheonly | 2019-02-19 00:44:14 | 167 | egrqmd1 | I didn t order FSD and couldn t be happier in my decision to wait. Why? I m 8 months into ownership and have 14k miles on my car. I m 100% sure it will be at least 1-2 more years before Tesla s FSD is both ready and permitted by regulators and then another 2 years *minimum* before the kinks are all worked out. That means I would have between 150k-200k miles on my car by that time and would start getting ready to buy another car. If FSD was a one-time purchase attached to the DRIVER rather than the CAR I would have 100% purchased it but since it s attached to the car it makes no sense to have purchased it in 2017 2018. | HIP2013 | 2019-02-19 01:25:20 | 39 | Tesla Autopilot Performance Review |
as4bav | [Discussion] Why I think you should not prepay for FSD | People have been asking me in HW3 threads on reddit and on TMC if they should prepay for FSD (to lock-in the current pricing) and separately if they should wait for the newer HW3-equipped cars instead of buying now. So in order to make my answers more visible I am doing this feel free to chime in with your perspective too. So I ll start with a word of caution: Tesla s history of fulfilling retrofit promises is not exactly great (remember they d rather you buy a new car - a lot more profit that way): - (paid!) P90D-> P100D battery upgrade took a lot longer than promised and was filled with frustration: https: teslamotorsclub.com tmc posts 2556184 - Lighted vanity mirrors - did not happen: https: teslamotorsclub.com tmc posts 169977 - AP1 development will continue despite HW2 arrival: did not happen - Your car will meet you at the porch summon - did not happen people that tried to pursue it (on ap1) were told if it s not in the manual it was not promised - For new model 3 owners - also consider the wording in the purchase agreement (not sure if same in CN and EU): h t https: twitter.com scottwolf_arch status 1066314684863795200 > [Prior agreements oral statements negotiations communications or representations about the Vehicle sold under this Agreement are superseded by this Agreement. Terms relating to the purchase not expressly contained herein are not binding](https: www.tesla.com order download-order-agreement?country=US) So don t just blindly trust what the tesla.com says only trust what the purchase agreement lists! AP1 owners never got what they were promised. Also since the promise was to only to retrofit a new computer - if you are on a HW2.0 car - you d be with the old worse Bosch radar and RCCC cameras (= no dashcam) and no redundancy. Retrofitting new radar and ep. the e-fuses is very unlikely - major wiring harness change! And god-forbid there s another sensor suite change meanwhile - that would mean even hw2.5 would be on subpar sensor suite with unknown performance. (I am not saying it s likely but it is possible and it happened before very stealthily remember the first [ hw2.5 is nothingburger statements from Tesla!](https: electrek.co 2017 08 09 tesla-autopilot-2-5-hardware-computer-autonomous-driving ) ) Also remember when you pay cash at time of upgrade (even if price is somewhat more) you will likely get much higher priority vs when you already paid so there s no downside to place you last in line (see model3 reservations for example of how this played out). And the there s not even a timeline when HW3 would actually make any meaningful difference in performance after all current software is not even at the promised EAP level (and it s been 2+ years since EAP was finished and was only undergoing final testing and validation if you believe original announcement. Meanwhile here in the real world we are on 3rd total rewrite of the codebase and cannot even read the speed signs yet) Look at all the people that prepaid FSD back in 2016 - how well did it work for them? And as they say final 10% of work take 95% of time. Also did you know first batch of hw2.5 was stealth-recalled due to overheating problems? Unlikely any retrofits would happen until HW stabilizes - who knows how long it takes and the happy new owners of hw3 cars might be not so happy for quite a while initially (just look at hw2 owners). Also consider crash risks - if you get into an accident chances are the car would be totalled so whatever software-only upgrades you have would be lost (FSD is NOT transferrable between cars). So you see there are lots of risks and the upside is just fixing the price of a potential upgrade who knows when if at all? (what if HW3 will not achieve FSD and HW4 would be needed in another few years? and HW3 is to only achieve full EAP promised stuff (like that smart summon)?) There s also a very real chance the price cannot be retroactively increased for existing owners because of how the current price is advertised. With all of this in mind - I don t recommend you to prepay for FSD. Enjoy what you have now! When the time comes you can evaluate the options in a lot more informed way. Assuming you still have the car and like what you see and so on. I should add that I prepaid for FSD in Jan 2017 and then regretted it. But because Tesla bought back my car as a lemon for the full price in December 2017 I had a rare chance of a do-over and I sure did nto make that mistake again when I bought another one in March 2018. In a similar vein if you REALLY want a Tesla car and can afford it NOW - buy it now and enjoy a known quantity. If you cannot afford it now or if you don t LIKE what s offered now then wait until you can afford it or when something you like is offered and look at everything at that point in time. It s really hard to predict the future after all. I know some people consider the prepayment money as a grant to Tesla to speed up the development - if you truly believe in something like this there are still better ways that better protect you: - You can invest in Tesla stock and if FSD happens - imagine the explosion in the stock price that would follow! And these money are transferrable to your next Tesla should there be a delay in development or something happened to your old car too! - You can also invest the money in some other ways and be diversified (which apparently is very important too according to investment advisors) - If you want it to be a free gift to Elon Tesla - do it as a free gift instead - it allows them to have more cash without incurring the liability on the book so the benefit is again bigger - In the end it s your money of course but do choose wisely I am sure you worked hard to earn them! EDIT - addition from another comment below: since I checked what FSD actually affords you in mytesla page I was a bit shocked. Here s the full description: > Full Self-Driving Capability > All you will need to do is get in and tell your car where to go and your Tesla will figure out the optimal route. Please note that Self-Driving functionality is dependent upon extensive software validation and regulatory approval which may vary widely by jurisdiction. BUY So.. a glorified navigation no actual driving involved? This nicely aligns with Elon s remarks from the last earnings call that we already have FSD on highways implying NoA IS FSD (perhaps with ULC sprinkled in once deemed safe) | greentheonly | 2019-02-19 00:44:14 | 167 | egrrbas | You cant even buy FSD so this discussions seems silly. | elysiansaurus | 2019-02-19 01:34:45 | 17 | Tesla Autopilot Performance Review |
as4bav | [Discussion] Why I think you should not prepay for FSD | People have been asking me in HW3 threads on reddit and on TMC if they should prepay for FSD (to lock-in the current pricing) and separately if they should wait for the newer HW3-equipped cars instead of buying now. So in order to make my answers more visible I am doing this feel free to chime in with your perspective too. So I ll start with a word of caution: Tesla s history of fulfilling retrofit promises is not exactly great (remember they d rather you buy a new car - a lot more profit that way): - (paid!) P90D-> P100D battery upgrade took a lot longer than promised and was filled with frustration: https: teslamotorsclub.com tmc posts 2556184 - Lighted vanity mirrors - did not happen: https: teslamotorsclub.com tmc posts 169977 - AP1 development will continue despite HW2 arrival: did not happen - Your car will meet you at the porch summon - did not happen people that tried to pursue it (on ap1) were told if it s not in the manual it was not promised - For new model 3 owners - also consider the wording in the purchase agreement (not sure if same in CN and EU): h t https: twitter.com scottwolf_arch status 1066314684863795200 > [Prior agreements oral statements negotiations communications or representations about the Vehicle sold under this Agreement are superseded by this Agreement. Terms relating to the purchase not expressly contained herein are not binding](https: www.tesla.com order download-order-agreement?country=US) So don t just blindly trust what the tesla.com says only trust what the purchase agreement lists! AP1 owners never got what they were promised. Also since the promise was to only to retrofit a new computer - if you are on a HW2.0 car - you d be with the old worse Bosch radar and RCCC cameras (= no dashcam) and no redundancy. Retrofitting new radar and ep. the e-fuses is very unlikely - major wiring harness change! And god-forbid there s another sensor suite change meanwhile - that would mean even hw2.5 would be on subpar sensor suite with unknown performance. (I am not saying it s likely but it is possible and it happened before very stealthily remember the first [ hw2.5 is nothingburger statements from Tesla!](https: electrek.co 2017 08 09 tesla-autopilot-2-5-hardware-computer-autonomous-driving ) ) Also remember when you pay cash at time of upgrade (even if price is somewhat more) you will likely get much higher priority vs when you already paid so there s no downside to place you last in line (see model3 reservations for example of how this played out). And the there s not even a timeline when HW3 would actually make any meaningful difference in performance after all current software is not even at the promised EAP level (and it s been 2+ years since EAP was finished and was only undergoing final testing and validation if you believe original announcement. Meanwhile here in the real world we are on 3rd total rewrite of the codebase and cannot even read the speed signs yet) Look at all the people that prepaid FSD back in 2016 - how well did it work for them? And as they say final 10% of work take 95% of time. Also did you know first batch of hw2.5 was stealth-recalled due to overheating problems? Unlikely any retrofits would happen until HW stabilizes - who knows how long it takes and the happy new owners of hw3 cars might be not so happy for quite a while initially (just look at hw2 owners). Also consider crash risks - if you get into an accident chances are the car would be totalled so whatever software-only upgrades you have would be lost (FSD is NOT transferrable between cars). So you see there are lots of risks and the upside is just fixing the price of a potential upgrade who knows when if at all? (what if HW3 will not achieve FSD and HW4 would be needed in another few years? and HW3 is to only achieve full EAP promised stuff (like that smart summon)?) There s also a very real chance the price cannot be retroactively increased for existing owners because of how the current price is advertised. With all of this in mind - I don t recommend you to prepay for FSD. Enjoy what you have now! When the time comes you can evaluate the options in a lot more informed way. Assuming you still have the car and like what you see and so on. I should add that I prepaid for FSD in Jan 2017 and then regretted it. But because Tesla bought back my car as a lemon for the full price in December 2017 I had a rare chance of a do-over and I sure did nto make that mistake again when I bought another one in March 2018. In a similar vein if you REALLY want a Tesla car and can afford it NOW - buy it now and enjoy a known quantity. If you cannot afford it now or if you don t LIKE what s offered now then wait until you can afford it or when something you like is offered and look at everything at that point in time. It s really hard to predict the future after all. I know some people consider the prepayment money as a grant to Tesla to speed up the development - if you truly believe in something like this there are still better ways that better protect you: - You can invest in Tesla stock and if FSD happens - imagine the explosion in the stock price that would follow! And these money are transferrable to your next Tesla should there be a delay in development or something happened to your old car too! - You can also invest the money in some other ways and be diversified (which apparently is very important too according to investment advisors) - If you want it to be a free gift to Elon Tesla - do it as a free gift instead - it allows them to have more cash without incurring the liability on the book so the benefit is again bigger - In the end it s your money of course but do choose wisely I am sure you worked hard to earn them! EDIT - addition from another comment below: since I checked what FSD actually affords you in mytesla page I was a bit shocked. Here s the full description: > Full Self-Driving Capability > All you will need to do is get in and tell your car where to go and your Tesla will figure out the optimal route. Please note that Self-Driving functionality is dependent upon extensive software validation and regulatory approval which may vary widely by jurisdiction. BUY So.. a glorified navigation no actual driving involved? This nicely aligns with Elon s remarks from the last earnings call that we already have FSD on highways implying NoA IS FSD (perhaps with ULC sprinkled in once deemed safe) | greentheonly | 2019-02-19 00:44:14 | 167 | egs7d0w | AP1 is still in development. My early MX driving had gotten significant better in the last year. Obviously it will never be FSD but I don t think they broke that promise. | herbys | 2019-02-19 05:27:49 | 17 | Tesla Autopilot Performance Review |
as4bav | [Discussion] Why I think you should not prepay for FSD | People have been asking me in HW3 threads on reddit and on TMC if they should prepay for FSD (to lock-in the current pricing) and separately if they should wait for the newer HW3-equipped cars instead of buying now. So in order to make my answers more visible I am doing this feel free to chime in with your perspective too. So I ll start with a word of caution: Tesla s history of fulfilling retrofit promises is not exactly great (remember they d rather you buy a new car - a lot more profit that way): - (paid!) P90D-> P100D battery upgrade took a lot longer than promised and was filled with frustration: https: teslamotorsclub.com tmc posts 2556184 - Lighted vanity mirrors - did not happen: https: teslamotorsclub.com tmc posts 169977 - AP1 development will continue despite HW2 arrival: did not happen - Your car will meet you at the porch summon - did not happen people that tried to pursue it (on ap1) were told if it s not in the manual it was not promised - For new model 3 owners - also consider the wording in the purchase agreement (not sure if same in CN and EU): h t https: twitter.com scottwolf_arch status 1066314684863795200 > [Prior agreements oral statements negotiations communications or representations about the Vehicle sold under this Agreement are superseded by this Agreement. Terms relating to the purchase not expressly contained herein are not binding](https: www.tesla.com order download-order-agreement?country=US) So don t just blindly trust what the tesla.com says only trust what the purchase agreement lists! AP1 owners never got what they were promised. Also since the promise was to only to retrofit a new computer - if you are on a HW2.0 car - you d be with the old worse Bosch radar and RCCC cameras (= no dashcam) and no redundancy. Retrofitting new radar and ep. the e-fuses is very unlikely - major wiring harness change! And god-forbid there s another sensor suite change meanwhile - that would mean even hw2.5 would be on subpar sensor suite with unknown performance. (I am not saying it s likely but it is possible and it happened before very stealthily remember the first [ hw2.5 is nothingburger statements from Tesla!](https: electrek.co 2017 08 09 tesla-autopilot-2-5-hardware-computer-autonomous-driving ) ) Also remember when you pay cash at time of upgrade (even if price is somewhat more) you will likely get much higher priority vs when you already paid so there s no downside to place you last in line (see model3 reservations for example of how this played out). And the there s not even a timeline when HW3 would actually make any meaningful difference in performance after all current software is not even at the promised EAP level (and it s been 2+ years since EAP was finished and was only undergoing final testing and validation if you believe original announcement. Meanwhile here in the real world we are on 3rd total rewrite of the codebase and cannot even read the speed signs yet) Look at all the people that prepaid FSD back in 2016 - how well did it work for them? And as they say final 10% of work take 95% of time. Also did you know first batch of hw2.5 was stealth-recalled due to overheating problems? Unlikely any retrofits would happen until HW stabilizes - who knows how long it takes and the happy new owners of hw3 cars might be not so happy for quite a while initially (just look at hw2 owners). Also consider crash risks - if you get into an accident chances are the car would be totalled so whatever software-only upgrades you have would be lost (FSD is NOT transferrable between cars). So you see there are lots of risks and the upside is just fixing the price of a potential upgrade who knows when if at all? (what if HW3 will not achieve FSD and HW4 would be needed in another few years? and HW3 is to only achieve full EAP promised stuff (like that smart summon)?) There s also a very real chance the price cannot be retroactively increased for existing owners because of how the current price is advertised. With all of this in mind - I don t recommend you to prepay for FSD. Enjoy what you have now! When the time comes you can evaluate the options in a lot more informed way. Assuming you still have the car and like what you see and so on. I should add that I prepaid for FSD in Jan 2017 and then regretted it. But because Tesla bought back my car as a lemon for the full price in December 2017 I had a rare chance of a do-over and I sure did nto make that mistake again when I bought another one in March 2018. In a similar vein if you REALLY want a Tesla car and can afford it NOW - buy it now and enjoy a known quantity. If you cannot afford it now or if you don t LIKE what s offered now then wait until you can afford it or when something you like is offered and look at everything at that point in time. It s really hard to predict the future after all. I know some people consider the prepayment money as a grant to Tesla to speed up the development - if you truly believe in something like this there are still better ways that better protect you: - You can invest in Tesla stock and if FSD happens - imagine the explosion in the stock price that would follow! And these money are transferrable to your next Tesla should there be a delay in development or something happened to your old car too! - You can also invest the money in some other ways and be diversified (which apparently is very important too according to investment advisors) - If you want it to be a free gift to Elon Tesla - do it as a free gift instead - it allows them to have more cash without incurring the liability on the book so the benefit is again bigger - In the end it s your money of course but do choose wisely I am sure you worked hard to earn them! EDIT - addition from another comment below: since I checked what FSD actually affords you in mytesla page I was a bit shocked. Here s the full description: > Full Self-Driving Capability > All you will need to do is get in and tell your car where to go and your Tesla will figure out the optimal route. Please note that Self-Driving functionality is dependent upon extensive software validation and regulatory approval which may vary widely by jurisdiction. BUY So.. a glorified navigation no actual driving involved? This nicely aligns with Elon s remarks from the last earnings call that we already have FSD on highways implying NoA IS FSD (perhaps with ULC sprinkled in once deemed safe) | greentheonly | 2019-02-19 00:44:14 | 167 | egsj180 | Tesla does not have FSD technology. There is literally no evidence of it. For the record to the laymen self driving is like 95% solved. Self driving isn t hard but self driving assertively in dense traffic under non-ideal conditions is very very hard. For example: Say the self driving vehicle is navigating the narrow downtown roads streets of a metropolis. There are cars parallel parked to either sides of the 2 way road. The vehicle approaches another vehicle up ahead on the road that s stopped. What do? Any human driver would simply drive around the stopped vehicle that s blocking the road. But this and countless other similar problems (and many not so similar) are really difficult to formalize for a self driving system. Tesla hasn t even demonstrated FSD under easy conditions let alone under hard conditions. Cruise Waymo MobilEye and others are miles ahead of Tesla in this tech. Tesla is so hopelessly behind that their best bet is to purchase the tech from someone else instead of re-inventing the wheel and spreading themselves so thin. | stormelc | 2019-02-19 09:56:52 | 16 | Tesla Autopilot Performance Review |
as4bav | [Discussion] Why I think you should not prepay for FSD | People have been asking me in HW3 threads on reddit and on TMC if they should prepay for FSD (to lock-in the current pricing) and separately if they should wait for the newer HW3-equipped cars instead of buying now. So in order to make my answers more visible I am doing this feel free to chime in with your perspective too. So I ll start with a word of caution: Tesla s history of fulfilling retrofit promises is not exactly great (remember they d rather you buy a new car - a lot more profit that way): - (paid!) P90D-> P100D battery upgrade took a lot longer than promised and was filled with frustration: https: teslamotorsclub.com tmc posts 2556184 - Lighted vanity mirrors - did not happen: https: teslamotorsclub.com tmc posts 169977 - AP1 development will continue despite HW2 arrival: did not happen - Your car will meet you at the porch summon - did not happen people that tried to pursue it (on ap1) were told if it s not in the manual it was not promised - For new model 3 owners - also consider the wording in the purchase agreement (not sure if same in CN and EU): h t https: twitter.com scottwolf_arch status 1066314684863795200 > [Prior agreements oral statements negotiations communications or representations about the Vehicle sold under this Agreement are superseded by this Agreement. Terms relating to the purchase not expressly contained herein are not binding](https: www.tesla.com order download-order-agreement?country=US) So don t just blindly trust what the tesla.com says only trust what the purchase agreement lists! AP1 owners never got what they were promised. Also since the promise was to only to retrofit a new computer - if you are on a HW2.0 car - you d be with the old worse Bosch radar and RCCC cameras (= no dashcam) and no redundancy. Retrofitting new radar and ep. the e-fuses is very unlikely - major wiring harness change! And god-forbid there s another sensor suite change meanwhile - that would mean even hw2.5 would be on subpar sensor suite with unknown performance. (I am not saying it s likely but it is possible and it happened before very stealthily remember the first [ hw2.5 is nothingburger statements from Tesla!](https: electrek.co 2017 08 09 tesla-autopilot-2-5-hardware-computer-autonomous-driving ) ) Also remember when you pay cash at time of upgrade (even if price is somewhat more) you will likely get much higher priority vs when you already paid so there s no downside to place you last in line (see model3 reservations for example of how this played out). And the there s not even a timeline when HW3 would actually make any meaningful difference in performance after all current software is not even at the promised EAP level (and it s been 2+ years since EAP was finished and was only undergoing final testing and validation if you believe original announcement. Meanwhile here in the real world we are on 3rd total rewrite of the codebase and cannot even read the speed signs yet) Look at all the people that prepaid FSD back in 2016 - how well did it work for them? And as they say final 10% of work take 95% of time. Also did you know first batch of hw2.5 was stealth-recalled due to overheating problems? Unlikely any retrofits would happen until HW stabilizes - who knows how long it takes and the happy new owners of hw3 cars might be not so happy for quite a while initially (just look at hw2 owners). Also consider crash risks - if you get into an accident chances are the car would be totalled so whatever software-only upgrades you have would be lost (FSD is NOT transferrable between cars). So you see there are lots of risks and the upside is just fixing the price of a potential upgrade who knows when if at all? (what if HW3 will not achieve FSD and HW4 would be needed in another few years? and HW3 is to only achieve full EAP promised stuff (like that smart summon)?) There s also a very real chance the price cannot be retroactively increased for existing owners because of how the current price is advertised. With all of this in mind - I don t recommend you to prepay for FSD. Enjoy what you have now! When the time comes you can evaluate the options in a lot more informed way. Assuming you still have the car and like what you see and so on. I should add that I prepaid for FSD in Jan 2017 and then regretted it. But because Tesla bought back my car as a lemon for the full price in December 2017 I had a rare chance of a do-over and I sure did nto make that mistake again when I bought another one in March 2018. In a similar vein if you REALLY want a Tesla car and can afford it NOW - buy it now and enjoy a known quantity. If you cannot afford it now or if you don t LIKE what s offered now then wait until you can afford it or when something you like is offered and look at everything at that point in time. It s really hard to predict the future after all. I know some people consider the prepayment money as a grant to Tesla to speed up the development - if you truly believe in something like this there are still better ways that better protect you: - You can invest in Tesla stock and if FSD happens - imagine the explosion in the stock price that would follow! And these money are transferrable to your next Tesla should there be a delay in development or something happened to your old car too! - You can also invest the money in some other ways and be diversified (which apparently is very important too according to investment advisors) - If you want it to be a free gift to Elon Tesla - do it as a free gift instead - it allows them to have more cash without incurring the liability on the book so the benefit is again bigger - In the end it s your money of course but do choose wisely I am sure you worked hard to earn them! EDIT - addition from another comment below: since I checked what FSD actually affords you in mytesla page I was a bit shocked. Here s the full description: > Full Self-Driving Capability > All you will need to do is get in and tell your car where to go and your Tesla will figure out the optimal route. Please note that Self-Driving functionality is dependent upon extensive software validation and regulatory approval which may vary widely by jurisdiction. BUY So.. a glorified navigation no actual driving involved? This nicely aligns with Elon s remarks from the last earnings call that we already have FSD on highways implying NoA IS FSD (perhaps with ULC sprinkled in once deemed safe) | greentheonly | 2019-02-19 00:44:14 | 167 | egro42q | You ve nicely summed up what I ve always preached about this matter. Thank you. | PM_ME_UR_DECOLLETAGE | 2019-02-19 00:50:43 | 14 | Tesla Autopilot Performance Review |
as4bav | [Discussion] Why I think you should not prepay for FSD | People have been asking me in HW3 threads on reddit and on TMC if they should prepay for FSD (to lock-in the current pricing) and separately if they should wait for the newer HW3-equipped cars instead of buying now. So in order to make my answers more visible I am doing this feel free to chime in with your perspective too. So I ll start with a word of caution: Tesla s history of fulfilling retrofit promises is not exactly great (remember they d rather you buy a new car - a lot more profit that way): - (paid!) P90D-> P100D battery upgrade took a lot longer than promised and was filled with frustration: https: teslamotorsclub.com tmc posts 2556184 - Lighted vanity mirrors - did not happen: https: teslamotorsclub.com tmc posts 169977 - AP1 development will continue despite HW2 arrival: did not happen - Your car will meet you at the porch summon - did not happen people that tried to pursue it (on ap1) were told if it s not in the manual it was not promised - For new model 3 owners - also consider the wording in the purchase agreement (not sure if same in CN and EU): h t https: twitter.com scottwolf_arch status 1066314684863795200 > [Prior agreements oral statements negotiations communications or representations about the Vehicle sold under this Agreement are superseded by this Agreement. Terms relating to the purchase not expressly contained herein are not binding](https: www.tesla.com order download-order-agreement?country=US) So don t just blindly trust what the tesla.com says only trust what the purchase agreement lists! AP1 owners never got what they were promised. Also since the promise was to only to retrofit a new computer - if you are on a HW2.0 car - you d be with the old worse Bosch radar and RCCC cameras (= no dashcam) and no redundancy. Retrofitting new radar and ep. the e-fuses is very unlikely - major wiring harness change! And god-forbid there s another sensor suite change meanwhile - that would mean even hw2.5 would be on subpar sensor suite with unknown performance. (I am not saying it s likely but it is possible and it happened before very stealthily remember the first [ hw2.5 is nothingburger statements from Tesla!](https: electrek.co 2017 08 09 tesla-autopilot-2-5-hardware-computer-autonomous-driving ) ) Also remember when you pay cash at time of upgrade (even if price is somewhat more) you will likely get much higher priority vs when you already paid so there s no downside to place you last in line (see model3 reservations for example of how this played out). And the there s not even a timeline when HW3 would actually make any meaningful difference in performance after all current software is not even at the promised EAP level (and it s been 2+ years since EAP was finished and was only undergoing final testing and validation if you believe original announcement. Meanwhile here in the real world we are on 3rd total rewrite of the codebase and cannot even read the speed signs yet) Look at all the people that prepaid FSD back in 2016 - how well did it work for them? And as they say final 10% of work take 95% of time. Also did you know first batch of hw2.5 was stealth-recalled due to overheating problems? Unlikely any retrofits would happen until HW stabilizes - who knows how long it takes and the happy new owners of hw3 cars might be not so happy for quite a while initially (just look at hw2 owners). Also consider crash risks - if you get into an accident chances are the car would be totalled so whatever software-only upgrades you have would be lost (FSD is NOT transferrable between cars). So you see there are lots of risks and the upside is just fixing the price of a potential upgrade who knows when if at all? (what if HW3 will not achieve FSD and HW4 would be needed in another few years? and HW3 is to only achieve full EAP promised stuff (like that smart summon)?) There s also a very real chance the price cannot be retroactively increased for existing owners because of how the current price is advertised. With all of this in mind - I don t recommend you to prepay for FSD. Enjoy what you have now! When the time comes you can evaluate the options in a lot more informed way. Assuming you still have the car and like what you see and so on. I should add that I prepaid for FSD in Jan 2017 and then regretted it. But because Tesla bought back my car as a lemon for the full price in December 2017 I had a rare chance of a do-over and I sure did nto make that mistake again when I bought another one in March 2018. In a similar vein if you REALLY want a Tesla car and can afford it NOW - buy it now and enjoy a known quantity. If you cannot afford it now or if you don t LIKE what s offered now then wait until you can afford it or when something you like is offered and look at everything at that point in time. It s really hard to predict the future after all. I know some people consider the prepayment money as a grant to Tesla to speed up the development - if you truly believe in something like this there are still better ways that better protect you: - You can invest in Tesla stock and if FSD happens - imagine the explosion in the stock price that would follow! And these money are transferrable to your next Tesla should there be a delay in development or something happened to your old car too! - You can also invest the money in some other ways and be diversified (which apparently is very important too according to investment advisors) - If you want it to be a free gift to Elon Tesla - do it as a free gift instead - it allows them to have more cash without incurring the liability on the book so the benefit is again bigger - In the end it s your money of course but do choose wisely I am sure you worked hard to earn them! EDIT - addition from another comment below: since I checked what FSD actually affords you in mytesla page I was a bit shocked. Here s the full description: > Full Self-Driving Capability > All you will need to do is get in and tell your car where to go and your Tesla will figure out the optimal route. Please note that Self-Driving functionality is dependent upon extensive software validation and regulatory approval which may vary widely by jurisdiction. BUY So.. a glorified navigation no actual driving involved? This nicely aligns with Elon s remarks from the last earnings call that we already have FSD on highways implying NoA IS FSD (perhaps with ULC sprinkled in once deemed safe) | greentheonly | 2019-02-19 00:44:14 | 167 | egrtyk9 | TL DR I paid $3000 for FSD it will either be FSD or I ll get my money back. Plain and simple. If my car gets totalled then insurance will pay me for the FSD add-on no biggie. By pre-paying I lock in my rate. There s no fear I m going to have old sensors because I have whatever sensors the car comes with when I bought it. This will be the case if I prepay or not. Although by prepaying if there s something necessary then Tesla must retrofit at their expense or refund me the full amount. There s no real loss on my part. | croninsiglos | 2019-02-19 02:10:54 | 12 | Tesla Autopilot Performance Review |
as4bav | [Discussion] Why I think you should not prepay for FSD | People have been asking me in HW3 threads on reddit and on TMC if they should prepay for FSD (to lock-in the current pricing) and separately if they should wait for the newer HW3-equipped cars instead of buying now. So in order to make my answers more visible I am doing this feel free to chime in with your perspective too. So I ll start with a word of caution: Tesla s history of fulfilling retrofit promises is not exactly great (remember they d rather you buy a new car - a lot more profit that way): - (paid!) P90D-> P100D battery upgrade took a lot longer than promised and was filled with frustration: https: teslamotorsclub.com tmc posts 2556184 - Lighted vanity mirrors - did not happen: https: teslamotorsclub.com tmc posts 169977 - AP1 development will continue despite HW2 arrival: did not happen - Your car will meet you at the porch summon - did not happen people that tried to pursue it (on ap1) were told if it s not in the manual it was not promised - For new model 3 owners - also consider the wording in the purchase agreement (not sure if same in CN and EU): h t https: twitter.com scottwolf_arch status 1066314684863795200 > [Prior agreements oral statements negotiations communications or representations about the Vehicle sold under this Agreement are superseded by this Agreement. Terms relating to the purchase not expressly contained herein are not binding](https: www.tesla.com order download-order-agreement?country=US) So don t just blindly trust what the tesla.com says only trust what the purchase agreement lists! AP1 owners never got what they were promised. Also since the promise was to only to retrofit a new computer - if you are on a HW2.0 car - you d be with the old worse Bosch radar and RCCC cameras (= no dashcam) and no redundancy. Retrofitting new radar and ep. the e-fuses is very unlikely - major wiring harness change! And god-forbid there s another sensor suite change meanwhile - that would mean even hw2.5 would be on subpar sensor suite with unknown performance. (I am not saying it s likely but it is possible and it happened before very stealthily remember the first [ hw2.5 is nothingburger statements from Tesla!](https: electrek.co 2017 08 09 tesla-autopilot-2-5-hardware-computer-autonomous-driving ) ) Also remember when you pay cash at time of upgrade (even if price is somewhat more) you will likely get much higher priority vs when you already paid so there s no downside to place you last in line (see model3 reservations for example of how this played out). And the there s not even a timeline when HW3 would actually make any meaningful difference in performance after all current software is not even at the promised EAP level (and it s been 2+ years since EAP was finished and was only undergoing final testing and validation if you believe original announcement. Meanwhile here in the real world we are on 3rd total rewrite of the codebase and cannot even read the speed signs yet) Look at all the people that prepaid FSD back in 2016 - how well did it work for them? And as they say final 10% of work take 95% of time. Also did you know first batch of hw2.5 was stealth-recalled due to overheating problems? Unlikely any retrofits would happen until HW stabilizes - who knows how long it takes and the happy new owners of hw3 cars might be not so happy for quite a while initially (just look at hw2 owners). Also consider crash risks - if you get into an accident chances are the car would be totalled so whatever software-only upgrades you have would be lost (FSD is NOT transferrable between cars). So you see there are lots of risks and the upside is just fixing the price of a potential upgrade who knows when if at all? (what if HW3 will not achieve FSD and HW4 would be needed in another few years? and HW3 is to only achieve full EAP promised stuff (like that smart summon)?) There s also a very real chance the price cannot be retroactively increased for existing owners because of how the current price is advertised. With all of this in mind - I don t recommend you to prepay for FSD. Enjoy what you have now! When the time comes you can evaluate the options in a lot more informed way. Assuming you still have the car and like what you see and so on. I should add that I prepaid for FSD in Jan 2017 and then regretted it. But because Tesla bought back my car as a lemon for the full price in December 2017 I had a rare chance of a do-over and I sure did nto make that mistake again when I bought another one in March 2018. In a similar vein if you REALLY want a Tesla car and can afford it NOW - buy it now and enjoy a known quantity. If you cannot afford it now or if you don t LIKE what s offered now then wait until you can afford it or when something you like is offered and look at everything at that point in time. It s really hard to predict the future after all. I know some people consider the prepayment money as a grant to Tesla to speed up the development - if you truly believe in something like this there are still better ways that better protect you: - You can invest in Tesla stock and if FSD happens - imagine the explosion in the stock price that would follow! And these money are transferrable to your next Tesla should there be a delay in development or something happened to your old car too! - You can also invest the money in some other ways and be diversified (which apparently is very important too according to investment advisors) - If you want it to be a free gift to Elon Tesla - do it as a free gift instead - it allows them to have more cash without incurring the liability on the book so the benefit is again bigger - In the end it s your money of course but do choose wisely I am sure you worked hard to earn them! EDIT - addition from another comment below: since I checked what FSD actually affords you in mytesla page I was a bit shocked. Here s the full description: > Full Self-Driving Capability > All you will need to do is get in and tell your car where to go and your Tesla will figure out the optimal route. Please note that Self-Driving functionality is dependent upon extensive software validation and regulatory approval which may vary widely by jurisdiction. BUY So.. a glorified navigation no actual driving involved? This nicely aligns with Elon s remarks from the last earnings call that we already have FSD on highways implying NoA IS FSD (perhaps with ULC sprinkled in once deemed safe) | greentheonly | 2019-02-19 00:44:14 | 167 | egsnoek | Let me start off by saying I really like my TM3. However I did not buy FSD simply because I am not convinced a solution relying on cameras would suffice. Giving the dancing cars around me at stop lights and phantom cars behind me in the rain I see no reason to change my assessment. I am not sold on LIDAR either it is more of a crutch. That out of the way what I point out to everyone is this. Tesla cannot even deliver the voice commands they promised. They cannot seem to ever flush out features they give us. Oh sure they love to brag about adding a feature or two to our car but it ends up being a shallow version of what other cars have. A Toyota EnTune system you can find this in a COROLLA has so many more voice commands than our Tesla does its embarrassing. That same system will let them fully control via blue tooth the music on their phones selecting play lists tracks artist and more. You can even seen with the display. Oh you can voice control that too. Plus in many states it is illegal to use your phone except by hands free and if I want to change what music is playing I will need to use my phone Out energy meter what a total joke. My 2017 Volt provided me more information and separated out HVAC and driving. It also could show the impact of temperature. The Kia Hyundai pair have far better energy monitoring and the new Audi trumps that. Instead of giving us useful features we got a fucking fart joke and fireplace. Seriously Tesla makes a great car but the drop the ball so often they are quickly rendering themselves back to Junior Varsity. | FourteenFour | 2019-02-19 12:00:07 | 12 | Tesla Autopilot Performance Review |
as4bav | [Discussion] Why I think you should not prepay for FSD | People have been asking me in HW3 threads on reddit and on TMC if they should prepay for FSD (to lock-in the current pricing) and separately if they should wait for the newer HW3-equipped cars instead of buying now. So in order to make my answers more visible I am doing this feel free to chime in with your perspective too. So I ll start with a word of caution: Tesla s history of fulfilling retrofit promises is not exactly great (remember they d rather you buy a new car - a lot more profit that way): - (paid!) P90D-> P100D battery upgrade took a lot longer than promised and was filled with frustration: https: teslamotorsclub.com tmc posts 2556184 - Lighted vanity mirrors - did not happen: https: teslamotorsclub.com tmc posts 169977 - AP1 development will continue despite HW2 arrival: did not happen - Your car will meet you at the porch summon - did not happen people that tried to pursue it (on ap1) were told if it s not in the manual it was not promised - For new model 3 owners - also consider the wording in the purchase agreement (not sure if same in CN and EU): h t https: twitter.com scottwolf_arch status 1066314684863795200 > [Prior agreements oral statements negotiations communications or representations about the Vehicle sold under this Agreement are superseded by this Agreement. Terms relating to the purchase not expressly contained herein are not binding](https: www.tesla.com order download-order-agreement?country=US) So don t just blindly trust what the tesla.com says only trust what the purchase agreement lists! AP1 owners never got what they were promised. Also since the promise was to only to retrofit a new computer - if you are on a HW2.0 car - you d be with the old worse Bosch radar and RCCC cameras (= no dashcam) and no redundancy. Retrofitting new radar and ep. the e-fuses is very unlikely - major wiring harness change! And god-forbid there s another sensor suite change meanwhile - that would mean even hw2.5 would be on subpar sensor suite with unknown performance. (I am not saying it s likely but it is possible and it happened before very stealthily remember the first [ hw2.5 is nothingburger statements from Tesla!](https: electrek.co 2017 08 09 tesla-autopilot-2-5-hardware-computer-autonomous-driving ) ) Also remember when you pay cash at time of upgrade (even if price is somewhat more) you will likely get much higher priority vs when you already paid so there s no downside to place you last in line (see model3 reservations for example of how this played out). And the there s not even a timeline when HW3 would actually make any meaningful difference in performance after all current software is not even at the promised EAP level (and it s been 2+ years since EAP was finished and was only undergoing final testing and validation if you believe original announcement. Meanwhile here in the real world we are on 3rd total rewrite of the codebase and cannot even read the speed signs yet) Look at all the people that prepaid FSD back in 2016 - how well did it work for them? And as they say final 10% of work take 95% of time. Also did you know first batch of hw2.5 was stealth-recalled due to overheating problems? Unlikely any retrofits would happen until HW stabilizes - who knows how long it takes and the happy new owners of hw3 cars might be not so happy for quite a while initially (just look at hw2 owners). Also consider crash risks - if you get into an accident chances are the car would be totalled so whatever software-only upgrades you have would be lost (FSD is NOT transferrable between cars). So you see there are lots of risks and the upside is just fixing the price of a potential upgrade who knows when if at all? (what if HW3 will not achieve FSD and HW4 would be needed in another few years? and HW3 is to only achieve full EAP promised stuff (like that smart summon)?) There s also a very real chance the price cannot be retroactively increased for existing owners because of how the current price is advertised. With all of this in mind - I don t recommend you to prepay for FSD. Enjoy what you have now! When the time comes you can evaluate the options in a lot more informed way. Assuming you still have the car and like what you see and so on. I should add that I prepaid for FSD in Jan 2017 and then regretted it. But because Tesla bought back my car as a lemon for the full price in December 2017 I had a rare chance of a do-over and I sure did nto make that mistake again when I bought another one in March 2018. In a similar vein if you REALLY want a Tesla car and can afford it NOW - buy it now and enjoy a known quantity. If you cannot afford it now or if you don t LIKE what s offered now then wait until you can afford it or when something you like is offered and look at everything at that point in time. It s really hard to predict the future after all. I know some people consider the prepayment money as a grant to Tesla to speed up the development - if you truly believe in something like this there are still better ways that better protect you: - You can invest in Tesla stock and if FSD happens - imagine the explosion in the stock price that would follow! And these money are transferrable to your next Tesla should there be a delay in development or something happened to your old car too! - You can also invest the money in some other ways and be diversified (which apparently is very important too according to investment advisors) - If you want it to be a free gift to Elon Tesla - do it as a free gift instead - it allows them to have more cash without incurring the liability on the book so the benefit is again bigger - In the end it s your money of course but do choose wisely I am sure you worked hard to earn them! EDIT - addition from another comment below: since I checked what FSD actually affords you in mytesla page I was a bit shocked. Here s the full description: > Full Self-Driving Capability > All you will need to do is get in and tell your car where to go and your Tesla will figure out the optimal route. Please note that Self-Driving functionality is dependent upon extensive software validation and regulatory approval which may vary widely by jurisdiction. BUY So.. a glorified navigation no actual driving involved? This nicely aligns with Elon s remarks from the last earnings call that we already have FSD on highways implying NoA IS FSD (perhaps with ULC sprinkled in once deemed safe) | greentheonly | 2019-02-19 00:44:14 | 167 | egrvst2 | I consider myself a Tesla fan but recently incident with FSD price had me ticked off. I took delivery of my new Model S back in October 2017. At this time FSD was priced at $4000 AFTER delivery. A few months later Tesla raised this price to $5000. Tesla said this price increase will only effect new owners (from this raised date) and that it was a bug previous owner will see this bug fixed and price drop back to 4K. A month ago I saw the bug is still there so I told Tesla to fix it. I got an email from Tesla rep saying: “If you buy FSD now it will be $4000. After this week it will permanently stays at $5000.” So here I thought FU Tesla. Is this how you treat your customers? Maybe I got a shit rep. Just want to vent. | waterox23 | 2019-02-19 02:35:46 | 11 | Tesla Autopilot Performance Review |
as4bav | [Discussion] Why I think you should not prepay for FSD | People have been asking me in HW3 threads on reddit and on TMC if they should prepay for FSD (to lock-in the current pricing) and separately if they should wait for the newer HW3-equipped cars instead of buying now. So in order to make my answers more visible I am doing this feel free to chime in with your perspective too. So I ll start with a word of caution: Tesla s history of fulfilling retrofit promises is not exactly great (remember they d rather you buy a new car - a lot more profit that way): - (paid!) P90D-> P100D battery upgrade took a lot longer than promised and was filled with frustration: https: teslamotorsclub.com tmc posts 2556184 - Lighted vanity mirrors - did not happen: https: teslamotorsclub.com tmc posts 169977 - AP1 development will continue despite HW2 arrival: did not happen - Your car will meet you at the porch summon - did not happen people that tried to pursue it (on ap1) were told if it s not in the manual it was not promised - For new model 3 owners - also consider the wording in the purchase agreement (not sure if same in CN and EU): h t https: twitter.com scottwolf_arch status 1066314684863795200 > [Prior agreements oral statements negotiations communications or representations about the Vehicle sold under this Agreement are superseded by this Agreement. Terms relating to the purchase not expressly contained herein are not binding](https: www.tesla.com order download-order-agreement?country=US) So don t just blindly trust what the tesla.com says only trust what the purchase agreement lists! AP1 owners never got what they were promised. Also since the promise was to only to retrofit a new computer - if you are on a HW2.0 car - you d be with the old worse Bosch radar and RCCC cameras (= no dashcam) and no redundancy. Retrofitting new radar and ep. the e-fuses is very unlikely - major wiring harness change! And god-forbid there s another sensor suite change meanwhile - that would mean even hw2.5 would be on subpar sensor suite with unknown performance. (I am not saying it s likely but it is possible and it happened before very stealthily remember the first [ hw2.5 is nothingburger statements from Tesla!](https: electrek.co 2017 08 09 tesla-autopilot-2-5-hardware-computer-autonomous-driving ) ) Also remember when you pay cash at time of upgrade (even if price is somewhat more) you will likely get much higher priority vs when you already paid so there s no downside to place you last in line (see model3 reservations for example of how this played out). And the there s not even a timeline when HW3 would actually make any meaningful difference in performance after all current software is not even at the promised EAP level (and it s been 2+ years since EAP was finished and was only undergoing final testing and validation if you believe original announcement. Meanwhile here in the real world we are on 3rd total rewrite of the codebase and cannot even read the speed signs yet) Look at all the people that prepaid FSD back in 2016 - how well did it work for them? And as they say final 10% of work take 95% of time. Also did you know first batch of hw2.5 was stealth-recalled due to overheating problems? Unlikely any retrofits would happen until HW stabilizes - who knows how long it takes and the happy new owners of hw3 cars might be not so happy for quite a while initially (just look at hw2 owners). Also consider crash risks - if you get into an accident chances are the car would be totalled so whatever software-only upgrades you have would be lost (FSD is NOT transferrable between cars). So you see there are lots of risks and the upside is just fixing the price of a potential upgrade who knows when if at all? (what if HW3 will not achieve FSD and HW4 would be needed in another few years? and HW3 is to only achieve full EAP promised stuff (like that smart summon)?) There s also a very real chance the price cannot be retroactively increased for existing owners because of how the current price is advertised. With all of this in mind - I don t recommend you to prepay for FSD. Enjoy what you have now! When the time comes you can evaluate the options in a lot more informed way. Assuming you still have the car and like what you see and so on. I should add that I prepaid for FSD in Jan 2017 and then regretted it. But because Tesla bought back my car as a lemon for the full price in December 2017 I had a rare chance of a do-over and I sure did nto make that mistake again when I bought another one in March 2018. In a similar vein if you REALLY want a Tesla car and can afford it NOW - buy it now and enjoy a known quantity. If you cannot afford it now or if you don t LIKE what s offered now then wait until you can afford it or when something you like is offered and look at everything at that point in time. It s really hard to predict the future after all. I know some people consider the prepayment money as a grant to Tesla to speed up the development - if you truly believe in something like this there are still better ways that better protect you: - You can invest in Tesla stock and if FSD happens - imagine the explosion in the stock price that would follow! And these money are transferrable to your next Tesla should there be a delay in development or something happened to your old car too! - You can also invest the money in some other ways and be diversified (which apparently is very important too according to investment advisors) - If you want it to be a free gift to Elon Tesla - do it as a free gift instead - it allows them to have more cash without incurring the liability on the book so the benefit is again bigger - In the end it s your money of course but do choose wisely I am sure you worked hard to earn them! EDIT - addition from another comment below: since I checked what FSD actually affords you in mytesla page I was a bit shocked. Here s the full description: > Full Self-Driving Capability > All you will need to do is get in and tell your car where to go and your Tesla will figure out the optimal route. Please note that Self-Driving functionality is dependent upon extensive software validation and regulatory approval which may vary widely by jurisdiction. BUY So.. a glorified navigation no actual driving involved? This nicely aligns with Elon s remarks from the last earnings call that we already have FSD on highways implying NoA IS FSD (perhaps with ULC sprinkled in once deemed safe) | greentheonly | 2019-02-19 00:44:14 | 167 | egrrwq4 | Can I offer a different way to think about this? If FSD cost $1 we d all buy it. If FSD cost $1M none of us would buy it. So the operative question isn t should you buy FSD *now*? It s *At what price* should you buy FSD now? The best way to make this decision is to weigh all of the factors and ask yourself what the highest number is where on a risk-adjusted basis you feel you re getting more than you are paying. If FSD for your vehicle costs less than that number buy it! If it costs more don t. Here are a few considerations I d add to u greentheonly s list: * If purchasing FSD is inevitable for you then you have much more upside risk than downside risk in buying it now. The FSD price can only drop by as much as you pay today but it can go up without limit. * Depending on where you live you may be able to mitigate the risk of totaling your car by listing your FSD purchase as an aftermarket modification with your insurance. * The unfulfilled promises of AP1 is a good cautionary example but keep in mind that the blowup with MobilEye was a perfect storm for Tesla and an externality that it could not fully control. I believe AP1 would still be supported today if Tesla were able to target the MobilEye SoC. * If you buy FSD today and then Tesla discovers that hardware upgrades are necessary Tesla will have three options: a refund a free hardware upgrade or an offer for you that s so good that you choose it over a refund. If you don t buy FSD Tesla owes you nothing. | freerobby | 2019-02-19 01:42:49 | 9 | Tesla Autopilot Performance Review |
as4bav | [Discussion] Why I think you should not prepay for FSD | People have been asking me in HW3 threads on reddit and on TMC if they should prepay for FSD (to lock-in the current pricing) and separately if they should wait for the newer HW3-equipped cars instead of buying now. So in order to make my answers more visible I am doing this feel free to chime in with your perspective too. So I ll start with a word of caution: Tesla s history of fulfilling retrofit promises is not exactly great (remember they d rather you buy a new car - a lot more profit that way): - (paid!) P90D-> P100D battery upgrade took a lot longer than promised and was filled with frustration: https: teslamotorsclub.com tmc posts 2556184 - Lighted vanity mirrors - did not happen: https: teslamotorsclub.com tmc posts 169977 - AP1 development will continue despite HW2 arrival: did not happen - Your car will meet you at the porch summon - did not happen people that tried to pursue it (on ap1) were told if it s not in the manual it was not promised - For new model 3 owners - also consider the wording in the purchase agreement (not sure if same in CN and EU): h t https: twitter.com scottwolf_arch status 1066314684863795200 > [Prior agreements oral statements negotiations communications or representations about the Vehicle sold under this Agreement are superseded by this Agreement. Terms relating to the purchase not expressly contained herein are not binding](https: www.tesla.com order download-order-agreement?country=US) So don t just blindly trust what the tesla.com says only trust what the purchase agreement lists! AP1 owners never got what they were promised. Also since the promise was to only to retrofit a new computer - if you are on a HW2.0 car - you d be with the old worse Bosch radar and RCCC cameras (= no dashcam) and no redundancy. Retrofitting new radar and ep. the e-fuses is very unlikely - major wiring harness change! And god-forbid there s another sensor suite change meanwhile - that would mean even hw2.5 would be on subpar sensor suite with unknown performance. (I am not saying it s likely but it is possible and it happened before very stealthily remember the first [ hw2.5 is nothingburger statements from Tesla!](https: electrek.co 2017 08 09 tesla-autopilot-2-5-hardware-computer-autonomous-driving ) ) Also remember when you pay cash at time of upgrade (even if price is somewhat more) you will likely get much higher priority vs when you already paid so there s no downside to place you last in line (see model3 reservations for example of how this played out). And the there s not even a timeline when HW3 would actually make any meaningful difference in performance after all current software is not even at the promised EAP level (and it s been 2+ years since EAP was finished and was only undergoing final testing and validation if you believe original announcement. Meanwhile here in the real world we are on 3rd total rewrite of the codebase and cannot even read the speed signs yet) Look at all the people that prepaid FSD back in 2016 - how well did it work for them? And as they say final 10% of work take 95% of time. Also did you know first batch of hw2.5 was stealth-recalled due to overheating problems? Unlikely any retrofits would happen until HW stabilizes - who knows how long it takes and the happy new owners of hw3 cars might be not so happy for quite a while initially (just look at hw2 owners). Also consider crash risks - if you get into an accident chances are the car would be totalled so whatever software-only upgrades you have would be lost (FSD is NOT transferrable between cars). So you see there are lots of risks and the upside is just fixing the price of a potential upgrade who knows when if at all? (what if HW3 will not achieve FSD and HW4 would be needed in another few years? and HW3 is to only achieve full EAP promised stuff (like that smart summon)?) There s also a very real chance the price cannot be retroactively increased for existing owners because of how the current price is advertised. With all of this in mind - I don t recommend you to prepay for FSD. Enjoy what you have now! When the time comes you can evaluate the options in a lot more informed way. Assuming you still have the car and like what you see and so on. I should add that I prepaid for FSD in Jan 2017 and then regretted it. But because Tesla bought back my car as a lemon for the full price in December 2017 I had a rare chance of a do-over and I sure did nto make that mistake again when I bought another one in March 2018. In a similar vein if you REALLY want a Tesla car and can afford it NOW - buy it now and enjoy a known quantity. If you cannot afford it now or if you don t LIKE what s offered now then wait until you can afford it or when something you like is offered and look at everything at that point in time. It s really hard to predict the future after all. I know some people consider the prepayment money as a grant to Tesla to speed up the development - if you truly believe in something like this there are still better ways that better protect you: - You can invest in Tesla stock and if FSD happens - imagine the explosion in the stock price that would follow! And these money are transferrable to your next Tesla should there be a delay in development or something happened to your old car too! - You can also invest the money in some other ways and be diversified (which apparently is very important too according to investment advisors) - If you want it to be a free gift to Elon Tesla - do it as a free gift instead - it allows them to have more cash without incurring the liability on the book so the benefit is again bigger - In the end it s your money of course but do choose wisely I am sure you worked hard to earn them! EDIT - addition from another comment below: since I checked what FSD actually affords you in mytesla page I was a bit shocked. Here s the full description: > Full Self-Driving Capability > All you will need to do is get in and tell your car where to go and your Tesla will figure out the optimal route. Please note that Self-Driving functionality is dependent upon extensive software validation and regulatory approval which may vary widely by jurisdiction. BUY So.. a glorified navigation no actual driving involved? This nicely aligns with Elon s remarks from the last earnings call that we already have FSD on highways implying NoA IS FSD (perhaps with ULC sprinkled in once deemed safe) | greentheonly | 2019-02-19 00:44:14 | 167 | egs1as2 | Here s some counter arguments to why you should buy FSD upfront: 1) Upgrades to FSD will likely be included. Yes you may or may not be at the front of the line but at least it s included. 2) price of FSD is not guaranteed. As they closer and closer to FSD I wouldn t be surprised if it is a $10k upgrade in the future maybe more. Having FSD is like having your own chauffeur. One that can even potentially go out and Uber make money for you. At $3k currently it is basically theft. 3) let s assume the worst and that FSD as described (or as people imagine) will *never* come to fruition. But the chances that partial FSD of happening is very likely. Partial FSD where like AP today you can keep your hands off but eyes on road. If that can be accomplished from point A to point B that alone is worth $3k. Imagine it making turns navigating in cities (all of which requires eyes on road) all on its own. The chances that Tesla can t even accomplish this is very slim. 4) worry-free upgrades. For $3k you ll never have to worry if the next upgrade will be the first “FSD” upgrade that you won t ever get until you buy. FSD will likely be a slow rollout rather than an overnight on off. It could be something as simple as adding a stop sign recognition. Are you going to pay $5k+ for a stop sign feature? Probably not. So the next upgrade will allow it to turn left and right. Are you going to pay $5k so the car can turn right? Probably not. Then the next upgrade brings the feature that allows the car to park itself in a parking lot. Is that feature alone worth $5k+? Again probably not. So now every single update you have to decide if that minor upgrade (compounded) is worth a huge money sink. And throughout this entire time you *still* don t know if FSD will arrive as you watch others enjoy these new features. If you pre-buy FSD you will forever get the maximum possible features your hardware allows no questions asked. This peace of mind alone seems worth it to me. | Lancaster61 | 2019-02-19 03:51:32 | 9 | Tesla Autopilot Performance Review |
as4bav | [Discussion] Why I think you should not prepay for FSD | People have been asking me in HW3 threads on reddit and on TMC if they should prepay for FSD (to lock-in the current pricing) and separately if they should wait for the newer HW3-equipped cars instead of buying now. So in order to make my answers more visible I am doing this feel free to chime in with your perspective too. So I ll start with a word of caution: Tesla s history of fulfilling retrofit promises is not exactly great (remember they d rather you buy a new car - a lot more profit that way): - (paid!) P90D-> P100D battery upgrade took a lot longer than promised and was filled with frustration: https: teslamotorsclub.com tmc posts 2556184 - Lighted vanity mirrors - did not happen: https: teslamotorsclub.com tmc posts 169977 - AP1 development will continue despite HW2 arrival: did not happen - Your car will meet you at the porch summon - did not happen people that tried to pursue it (on ap1) were told if it s not in the manual it was not promised - For new model 3 owners - also consider the wording in the purchase agreement (not sure if same in CN and EU): h t https: twitter.com scottwolf_arch status 1066314684863795200 > [Prior agreements oral statements negotiations communications or representations about the Vehicle sold under this Agreement are superseded by this Agreement. Terms relating to the purchase not expressly contained herein are not binding](https: www.tesla.com order download-order-agreement?country=US) So don t just blindly trust what the tesla.com says only trust what the purchase agreement lists! AP1 owners never got what they were promised. Also since the promise was to only to retrofit a new computer - if you are on a HW2.0 car - you d be with the old worse Bosch radar and RCCC cameras (= no dashcam) and no redundancy. Retrofitting new radar and ep. the e-fuses is very unlikely - major wiring harness change! And god-forbid there s another sensor suite change meanwhile - that would mean even hw2.5 would be on subpar sensor suite with unknown performance. (I am not saying it s likely but it is possible and it happened before very stealthily remember the first [ hw2.5 is nothingburger statements from Tesla!](https: electrek.co 2017 08 09 tesla-autopilot-2-5-hardware-computer-autonomous-driving ) ) Also remember when you pay cash at time of upgrade (even if price is somewhat more) you will likely get much higher priority vs when you already paid so there s no downside to place you last in line (see model3 reservations for example of how this played out). And the there s not even a timeline when HW3 would actually make any meaningful difference in performance after all current software is not even at the promised EAP level (and it s been 2+ years since EAP was finished and was only undergoing final testing and validation if you believe original announcement. Meanwhile here in the real world we are on 3rd total rewrite of the codebase and cannot even read the speed signs yet) Look at all the people that prepaid FSD back in 2016 - how well did it work for them? And as they say final 10% of work take 95% of time. Also did you know first batch of hw2.5 was stealth-recalled due to overheating problems? Unlikely any retrofits would happen until HW stabilizes - who knows how long it takes and the happy new owners of hw3 cars might be not so happy for quite a while initially (just look at hw2 owners). Also consider crash risks - if you get into an accident chances are the car would be totalled so whatever software-only upgrades you have would be lost (FSD is NOT transferrable between cars). So you see there are lots of risks and the upside is just fixing the price of a potential upgrade who knows when if at all? (what if HW3 will not achieve FSD and HW4 would be needed in another few years? and HW3 is to only achieve full EAP promised stuff (like that smart summon)?) There s also a very real chance the price cannot be retroactively increased for existing owners because of how the current price is advertised. With all of this in mind - I don t recommend you to prepay for FSD. Enjoy what you have now! When the time comes you can evaluate the options in a lot more informed way. Assuming you still have the car and like what you see and so on. I should add that I prepaid for FSD in Jan 2017 and then regretted it. But because Tesla bought back my car as a lemon for the full price in December 2017 I had a rare chance of a do-over and I sure did nto make that mistake again when I bought another one in March 2018. In a similar vein if you REALLY want a Tesla car and can afford it NOW - buy it now and enjoy a known quantity. If you cannot afford it now or if you don t LIKE what s offered now then wait until you can afford it or when something you like is offered and look at everything at that point in time. It s really hard to predict the future after all. I know some people consider the prepayment money as a grant to Tesla to speed up the development - if you truly believe in something like this there are still better ways that better protect you: - You can invest in Tesla stock and if FSD happens - imagine the explosion in the stock price that would follow! And these money are transferrable to your next Tesla should there be a delay in development or something happened to your old car too! - You can also invest the money in some other ways and be diversified (which apparently is very important too according to investment advisors) - If you want it to be a free gift to Elon Tesla - do it as a free gift instead - it allows them to have more cash without incurring the liability on the book so the benefit is again bigger - In the end it s your money of course but do choose wisely I am sure you worked hard to earn them! EDIT - addition from another comment below: since I checked what FSD actually affords you in mytesla page I was a bit shocked. Here s the full description: > Full Self-Driving Capability > All you will need to do is get in and tell your car where to go and your Tesla will figure out the optimal route. Please note that Self-Driving functionality is dependent upon extensive software validation and regulatory approval which may vary widely by jurisdiction. BUY So.. a glorified navigation no actual driving involved? This nicely aligns with Elon s remarks from the last earnings call that we already have FSD on highways implying NoA IS FSD (perhaps with ULC sprinkled in once deemed safe) | greentheonly | 2019-02-19 00:44:14 | 167 | egrpjf9 | Of course buying tesla stock doesn t really help them. You are not buying directly from Tesla. Yes a lot of buyers would raise prices but your little contribution is not nothing. Every buyer has a seller. | JFreader | 2019-02-19 01:10:31 | 7 | Tesla Autopilot Performance Review |
as4bav | [Discussion] Why I think you should not prepay for FSD | People have been asking me in HW3 threads on reddit and on TMC if they should prepay for FSD (to lock-in the current pricing) and separately if they should wait for the newer HW3-equipped cars instead of buying now. So in order to make my answers more visible I am doing this feel free to chime in with your perspective too. So I ll start with a word of caution: Tesla s history of fulfilling retrofit promises is not exactly great (remember they d rather you buy a new car - a lot more profit that way): - (paid!) P90D-> P100D battery upgrade took a lot longer than promised and was filled with frustration: https: teslamotorsclub.com tmc posts 2556184 - Lighted vanity mirrors - did not happen: https: teslamotorsclub.com tmc posts 169977 - AP1 development will continue despite HW2 arrival: did not happen - Your car will meet you at the porch summon - did not happen people that tried to pursue it (on ap1) were told if it s not in the manual it was not promised - For new model 3 owners - also consider the wording in the purchase agreement (not sure if same in CN and EU): h t https: twitter.com scottwolf_arch status 1066314684863795200 > [Prior agreements oral statements negotiations communications or representations about the Vehicle sold under this Agreement are superseded by this Agreement. Terms relating to the purchase not expressly contained herein are not binding](https: www.tesla.com order download-order-agreement?country=US) So don t just blindly trust what the tesla.com says only trust what the purchase agreement lists! AP1 owners never got what they were promised. Also since the promise was to only to retrofit a new computer - if you are on a HW2.0 car - you d be with the old worse Bosch radar and RCCC cameras (= no dashcam) and no redundancy. Retrofitting new radar and ep. the e-fuses is very unlikely - major wiring harness change! And god-forbid there s another sensor suite change meanwhile - that would mean even hw2.5 would be on subpar sensor suite with unknown performance. (I am not saying it s likely but it is possible and it happened before very stealthily remember the first [ hw2.5 is nothingburger statements from Tesla!](https: electrek.co 2017 08 09 tesla-autopilot-2-5-hardware-computer-autonomous-driving ) ) Also remember when you pay cash at time of upgrade (even if price is somewhat more) you will likely get much higher priority vs when you already paid so there s no downside to place you last in line (see model3 reservations for example of how this played out). And the there s not even a timeline when HW3 would actually make any meaningful difference in performance after all current software is not even at the promised EAP level (and it s been 2+ years since EAP was finished and was only undergoing final testing and validation if you believe original announcement. Meanwhile here in the real world we are on 3rd total rewrite of the codebase and cannot even read the speed signs yet) Look at all the people that prepaid FSD back in 2016 - how well did it work for them? And as they say final 10% of work take 95% of time. Also did you know first batch of hw2.5 was stealth-recalled due to overheating problems? Unlikely any retrofits would happen until HW stabilizes - who knows how long it takes and the happy new owners of hw3 cars might be not so happy for quite a while initially (just look at hw2 owners). Also consider crash risks - if you get into an accident chances are the car would be totalled so whatever software-only upgrades you have would be lost (FSD is NOT transferrable between cars). So you see there are lots of risks and the upside is just fixing the price of a potential upgrade who knows when if at all? (what if HW3 will not achieve FSD and HW4 would be needed in another few years? and HW3 is to only achieve full EAP promised stuff (like that smart summon)?) There s also a very real chance the price cannot be retroactively increased for existing owners because of how the current price is advertised. With all of this in mind - I don t recommend you to prepay for FSD. Enjoy what you have now! When the time comes you can evaluate the options in a lot more informed way. Assuming you still have the car and like what you see and so on. I should add that I prepaid for FSD in Jan 2017 and then regretted it. But because Tesla bought back my car as a lemon for the full price in December 2017 I had a rare chance of a do-over and I sure did nto make that mistake again when I bought another one in March 2018. In a similar vein if you REALLY want a Tesla car and can afford it NOW - buy it now and enjoy a known quantity. If you cannot afford it now or if you don t LIKE what s offered now then wait until you can afford it or when something you like is offered and look at everything at that point in time. It s really hard to predict the future after all. I know some people consider the prepayment money as a grant to Tesla to speed up the development - if you truly believe in something like this there are still better ways that better protect you: - You can invest in Tesla stock and if FSD happens - imagine the explosion in the stock price that would follow! And these money are transferrable to your next Tesla should there be a delay in development or something happened to your old car too! - You can also invest the money in some other ways and be diversified (which apparently is very important too according to investment advisors) - If you want it to be a free gift to Elon Tesla - do it as a free gift instead - it allows them to have more cash without incurring the liability on the book so the benefit is again bigger - In the end it s your money of course but do choose wisely I am sure you worked hard to earn them! EDIT - addition from another comment below: since I checked what FSD actually affords you in mytesla page I was a bit shocked. Here s the full description: > Full Self-Driving Capability > All you will need to do is get in and tell your car where to go and your Tesla will figure out the optimal route. Please note that Self-Driving functionality is dependent upon extensive software validation and regulatory approval which may vary widely by jurisdiction. BUY So.. a glorified navigation no actual driving involved? This nicely aligns with Elon s remarks from the last earnings call that we already have FSD on highways implying NoA IS FSD (perhaps with ULC sprinkled in once deemed safe) | greentheonly | 2019-02-19 00:44:14 | 167 | egrvcc4 | I know people who prepaid for it for their *leased* Model S two and half years ago because they believed Elon s timeline and now feeling very bitter toward Tesla as their leases are about to expire in 6 months. Let s be honest the whole thing was a smoke and mirror charade for Tesla to raise money in a kickstarter fashion and now their cash flow situation has been drastically improved they took the option away because the benefits no longer overshadows the legal risks and backlash. FSD as in what Tesla promised in that video 2 and half years ago (coast to coast no human intervention) is at least 3 years away for them and that s being incredibly optimistic. | cookingboy | 2019-02-19 02:29:40 | 7 | Tesla Autopilot Performance Review |
as4bav | [Discussion] Why I think you should not prepay for FSD | People have been asking me in HW3 threads on reddit and on TMC if they should prepay for FSD (to lock-in the current pricing) and separately if they should wait for the newer HW3-equipped cars instead of buying now. So in order to make my answers more visible I am doing this feel free to chime in with your perspective too. So I ll start with a word of caution: Tesla s history of fulfilling retrofit promises is not exactly great (remember they d rather you buy a new car - a lot more profit that way): - (paid!) P90D-> P100D battery upgrade took a lot longer than promised and was filled with frustration: https: teslamotorsclub.com tmc posts 2556184 - Lighted vanity mirrors - did not happen: https: teslamotorsclub.com tmc posts 169977 - AP1 development will continue despite HW2 arrival: did not happen - Your car will meet you at the porch summon - did not happen people that tried to pursue it (on ap1) were told if it s not in the manual it was not promised - For new model 3 owners - also consider the wording in the purchase agreement (not sure if same in CN and EU): h t https: twitter.com scottwolf_arch status 1066314684863795200 > [Prior agreements oral statements negotiations communications or representations about the Vehicle sold under this Agreement are superseded by this Agreement. Terms relating to the purchase not expressly contained herein are not binding](https: www.tesla.com order download-order-agreement?country=US) So don t just blindly trust what the tesla.com says only trust what the purchase agreement lists! AP1 owners never got what they were promised. Also since the promise was to only to retrofit a new computer - if you are on a HW2.0 car - you d be with the old worse Bosch radar and RCCC cameras (= no dashcam) and no redundancy. Retrofitting new radar and ep. the e-fuses is very unlikely - major wiring harness change! And god-forbid there s another sensor suite change meanwhile - that would mean even hw2.5 would be on subpar sensor suite with unknown performance. (I am not saying it s likely but it is possible and it happened before very stealthily remember the first [ hw2.5 is nothingburger statements from Tesla!](https: electrek.co 2017 08 09 tesla-autopilot-2-5-hardware-computer-autonomous-driving ) ) Also remember when you pay cash at time of upgrade (even if price is somewhat more) you will likely get much higher priority vs when you already paid so there s no downside to place you last in line (see model3 reservations for example of how this played out). And the there s not even a timeline when HW3 would actually make any meaningful difference in performance after all current software is not even at the promised EAP level (and it s been 2+ years since EAP was finished and was only undergoing final testing and validation if you believe original announcement. Meanwhile here in the real world we are on 3rd total rewrite of the codebase and cannot even read the speed signs yet) Look at all the people that prepaid FSD back in 2016 - how well did it work for them? And as they say final 10% of work take 95% of time. Also did you know first batch of hw2.5 was stealth-recalled due to overheating problems? Unlikely any retrofits would happen until HW stabilizes - who knows how long it takes and the happy new owners of hw3 cars might be not so happy for quite a while initially (just look at hw2 owners). Also consider crash risks - if you get into an accident chances are the car would be totalled so whatever software-only upgrades you have would be lost (FSD is NOT transferrable between cars). So you see there are lots of risks and the upside is just fixing the price of a potential upgrade who knows when if at all? (what if HW3 will not achieve FSD and HW4 would be needed in another few years? and HW3 is to only achieve full EAP promised stuff (like that smart summon)?) There s also a very real chance the price cannot be retroactively increased for existing owners because of how the current price is advertised. With all of this in mind - I don t recommend you to prepay for FSD. Enjoy what you have now! When the time comes you can evaluate the options in a lot more informed way. Assuming you still have the car and like what you see and so on. I should add that I prepaid for FSD in Jan 2017 and then regretted it. But because Tesla bought back my car as a lemon for the full price in December 2017 I had a rare chance of a do-over and I sure did nto make that mistake again when I bought another one in March 2018. In a similar vein if you REALLY want a Tesla car and can afford it NOW - buy it now and enjoy a known quantity. If you cannot afford it now or if you don t LIKE what s offered now then wait until you can afford it or when something you like is offered and look at everything at that point in time. It s really hard to predict the future after all. I know some people consider the prepayment money as a grant to Tesla to speed up the development - if you truly believe in something like this there are still better ways that better protect you: - You can invest in Tesla stock and if FSD happens - imagine the explosion in the stock price that would follow! And these money are transferrable to your next Tesla should there be a delay in development or something happened to your old car too! - You can also invest the money in some other ways and be diversified (which apparently is very important too according to investment advisors) - If you want it to be a free gift to Elon Tesla - do it as a free gift instead - it allows them to have more cash without incurring the liability on the book so the benefit is again bigger - In the end it s your money of course but do choose wisely I am sure you worked hard to earn them! EDIT - addition from another comment below: since I checked what FSD actually affords you in mytesla page I was a bit shocked. Here s the full description: > Full Self-Driving Capability > All you will need to do is get in and tell your car where to go and your Tesla will figure out the optimal route. Please note that Self-Driving functionality is dependent upon extensive software validation and regulatory approval which may vary widely by jurisdiction. BUY So.. a glorified navigation no actual driving involved? This nicely aligns with Elon s remarks from the last earnings call that we already have FSD on highways implying NoA IS FSD (perhaps with ULC sprinkled in once deemed safe) | greentheonly | 2019-02-19 00:44:14 | 167 | egrnw2g | I personally agree with you on that. I m the type of person that would rather see what the product can do prior to buying it. $3000 $5000 is a lot of money for a product that hasn t even released yet and we have no idea when it will be available. I ve seen people burned way too many times due to pre-ordering... | ABigFalconRocket | 2019-02-19 00:47:33 | 5 | Tesla Autopilot Performance Review |
8t4fm6 | [Discussion] Why aren t Tesla vehicles in the Top 10 of the American-Made Index? | [https: www.cars.com articles carscom-2018-american-made-index-whats-the-most-american-car-1420700348632 ](https: www.cars.com articles carscom-2018-american-made-index-whats-the-most-american-car-1420700348632 ) [https: www.cars.com articles carscom-2018-american-made-index-which-cars-are-built-in-america-for-2018-1420700348293 ](https: www.cars.com articles carscom-2018-american-made-index-which-cars-are-built-in-america-for-2018-1420700348293 ) They did make the long list of American-made cars but I m confused why they aren t in the top 10? I feel like I ve seen other rankings with Tesla vehicles topping the list or very close to the top. > U.S. assembly is a critical component of AMI eligibility but that factor alone doesn t guarantee a seat at the table. Now in the second year of its overhauled methodology the AMI considers five major factors to zero in on the economic impact of a given model: assembly location domestic-parts content as determined by the American Automobile Labeling Act engine sourcing transmission sourcing and factory jobs provided by each automaker s U.S. plants. I guess Tesla probably just doesn t employ enough people in the US. Any other ideas? | jonnygozy | 2018-06-22 20:13:43 | 17 | e14qx78 | I think Tesla S and X have a lot of German Mercedes parts and Japanese batteries. The Model 3 may change things! | Louboody | 2018-06-22 21:21:07 | 6 | Miscellaneous Tesla Topic |
8t4fm6 | [Discussion] Why aren t Tesla vehicles in the Top 10 of the American-Made Index? | [https: www.cars.com articles carscom-2018-american-made-index-whats-the-most-american-car-1420700348632 ](https: www.cars.com articles carscom-2018-american-made-index-whats-the-most-american-car-1420700348632 ) [https: www.cars.com articles carscom-2018-american-made-index-which-cars-are-built-in-america-for-2018-1420700348293 ](https: www.cars.com articles carscom-2018-american-made-index-which-cars-are-built-in-america-for-2018-1420700348293 ) They did make the long list of American-made cars but I m confused why they aren t in the top 10? I feel like I ve seen other rankings with Tesla vehicles topping the list or very close to the top. > U.S. assembly is a critical component of AMI eligibility but that factor alone doesn t guarantee a seat at the table. Now in the second year of its overhauled methodology the AMI considers five major factors to zero in on the economic impact of a given model: assembly location domestic-parts content as determined by the American Automobile Labeling Act engine sourcing transmission sourcing and factory jobs provided by each automaker s U.S. plants. I guess Tesla probably just doesn t employ enough people in the US. Any other ideas? | jonnygozy | 2018-06-22 20:13:43 | 17 | e14t9un | I think Tesla doesn t play the game by filling out the surveys. | _ohm_my | 2018-06-22 22:00:13 | 5 | Miscellaneous Tesla Topic |
8uaheh | [Discussion] Why do news outlets (both pro-Tesla and otherwise) keep reporting that Tesla opened invites to ALL reservation holders? | Reserved November 2016 waiting for my invite to configure. I think I m going to break my phone if I keep hitting refresh on my inbox... | amdizack | 2018-06-27 15:22:58 | 42 | e1dutgu | I m still a bit confused on this. In the coming days they will open up orders based on when they placed their reservation? To me this sounds like what they ve already been doing - they ve opened up orders and started with owners but then opened them up for line-waiters and then 1st-day online reservations.. so this would be an extension of that. That is unless they simply open up ALL reservations together and then manage your delivery based on when your reservation was made. For example if you reserved 4 1 16 and order RWD LR your order would come in the next few weeks but if you reserved yesterday and configured RWD LR you d be put way down the line for that. I can see them trying this though for a few reasons. One is that its more free funding - $2500 additional from each order even if that order won t be built until next year. The other is that the base model is still not available... by opening up orders to everyone they will be tempted to just spring for LR AWD or P because it is available NOW rather than waiting until December. | thepolan | 2018-06-27 15:56:53 | 13 | Tesla Delivery Woes |
8uaheh | [Discussion] Why do news outlets (both pro-Tesla and otherwise) keep reporting that Tesla opened invites to ALL reservation holders? | Reserved November 2016 waiting for my invite to configure. I think I m going to break my phone if I keep hitting refresh on my inbox... | amdizack | 2018-06-27 15:22:58 | 42 | e1dtosa | If this is true it is going to rock my world and shatter my bank account. I am ready Elon. Let s make me poor one Tesla at a time. :). | sziehr | 2018-06-27 15:43:07 | 6 | Tesla Delivery Woes |
8uaheh | [Discussion] Why do news outlets (both pro-Tesla and otherwise) keep reporting that Tesla opened invites to ALL reservation holders? | Reserved November 2016 waiting for my invite to configure. I think I m going to break my phone if I keep hitting refresh on my inbox... | amdizack | 2018-06-27 15:22:58 | 42 | e1e252f | Pretty upsetting. Some people who reserved after me already have their cars and I still haven t been able to configure (4 1 at 6:30 AM EST)...Come on man. | Mathias8337 | 2018-06-27 17:30:56 | 5 | Tesla Delivery Woes |
athebc | [Discussion] Why does cruise control perform so poorly in stop & go traffic | Something that has irked me since day one of owning my Tesla is the performance at red lights or stop & go traffic. The car does fine most the time at stopping within a reasonable distance to the car in front of me (it still seems to far but that may just be my personal preference since where I drive drivers are agressive) but when traffic starts moving again the car takes forever to start to move and accelerate. There seems to be a built in delay to start moving. What this does is just cause more traffic since the cars behind me will be delayed in starting to move and so on and so forth. To overcome this I usually accelerate the car myself to avoid backing up traffic but you would think a smart car would be able to accelerate with a quicker reaction than a human. Edit: see video for explanation https: youtu.be BhXBb97wieQ | whyamihereonreddit | 2019-02-22 13:08:31 | 59 | eh13r6c | Tesla could help fight traffic waves by updating their Autopilot to help with this. The more Teslas on the road could actually reduce the amount of traffic in the long run. https: www.youtube.com watch?v=iHzzSao6ypE | Keatonofthedrake | 2019-02-22 14:16:42 | 37 | Tesla Autopilot Performance Review |
athebc | [Discussion] Why does cruise control perform so poorly in stop & go traffic | Something that has irked me since day one of owning my Tesla is the performance at red lights or stop & go traffic. The car does fine most the time at stopping within a reasonable distance to the car in front of me (it still seems to far but that may just be my personal preference since where I drive drivers are agressive) but when traffic starts moving again the car takes forever to start to move and accelerate. There seems to be a built in delay to start moving. What this does is just cause more traffic since the cars behind me will be delayed in starting to move and so on and so forth. To overcome this I usually accelerate the car myself to avoid backing up traffic but you would think a smart car would be able to accelerate with a quicker reaction than a human. Edit: see video for explanation https: youtu.be BhXBb97wieQ | whyamihereonreddit | 2019-02-22 13:08:31 | 59 | eh148dj | I agree with you. The car should react and move earlier. It happens to me a few times that the car didn t move at all from a complete stop so I have to push the accelerator pedal. | zzzzoooo | 2019-02-22 14:23:30 | 21 | Tesla Autopilot Performance Review |
athebc | [Discussion] Why does cruise control perform so poorly in stop & go traffic | Something that has irked me since day one of owning my Tesla is the performance at red lights or stop & go traffic. The car does fine most the time at stopping within a reasonable distance to the car in front of me (it still seems to far but that may just be my personal preference since where I drive drivers are agressive) but when traffic starts moving again the car takes forever to start to move and accelerate. There seems to be a built in delay to start moving. What this does is just cause more traffic since the cars behind me will be delayed in starting to move and so on and so forth. To overcome this I usually accelerate the car myself to avoid backing up traffic but you would think a smart car would be able to accelerate with a quicker reaction than a human. Edit: see video for explanation https: youtu.be BhXBb97wieQ | whyamihereonreddit | 2019-02-22 13:08:31 | 59 | eh11jhk | Do you have the distance set to 1? That is better than the higher distances. Also you can press the accelerator manually to get it going sooner then let off and it will take over | Gray_Tiger | 2019-02-22 13:44:15 | 10 | Tesla Autopilot Performance Review |
athebc | [Discussion] Why does cruise control perform so poorly in stop & go traffic | Something that has irked me since day one of owning my Tesla is the performance at red lights or stop & go traffic. The car does fine most the time at stopping within a reasonable distance to the car in front of me (it still seems to far but that may just be my personal preference since where I drive drivers are agressive) but when traffic starts moving again the car takes forever to start to move and accelerate. There seems to be a built in delay to start moving. What this does is just cause more traffic since the cars behind me will be delayed in starting to move and so on and so forth. To overcome this I usually accelerate the car myself to avoid backing up traffic but you would think a smart car would be able to accelerate with a quicker reaction than a human. Edit: see video for explanation https: youtu.be BhXBb97wieQ | whyamihereonreddit | 2019-02-22 13:08:31 | 59 | eh1uro5 | *thank you* I constantly see people praising EAP on this sub because of its performance in heavy traffic but this exact issue is truly maddening. In the couple of times I got to experience EAP I decided that the stop-and-go behavior was one of the main things that needed to improve before I bought. | dubsteponmycat | 2019-02-22 19:35:59 | 9 | Tesla Autopilot Performance Review |
athebc | [Discussion] Why does cruise control perform so poorly in stop & go traffic | Something that has irked me since day one of owning my Tesla is the performance at red lights or stop & go traffic. The car does fine most the time at stopping within a reasonable distance to the car in front of me (it still seems to far but that may just be my personal preference since where I drive drivers are agressive) but when traffic starts moving again the car takes forever to start to move and accelerate. There seems to be a built in delay to start moving. What this does is just cause more traffic since the cars behind me will be delayed in starting to move and so on and so forth. To overcome this I usually accelerate the car myself to avoid backing up traffic but you would think a smart car would be able to accelerate with a quicker reaction than a human. Edit: see video for explanation https: youtu.be BhXBb97wieQ | whyamihereonreddit | 2019-02-22 13:08:31 | 59 | eh1c1ix | Agree it should accelerate at the speed of the car in front... keep the safe distance but don t fall behind (within reason). | Eldanon | 2019-02-22 16:02:04 | 5 | Tesla Autopilot Performance Review |
athebc | [Discussion] Why does cruise control perform so poorly in stop & go traffic | Something that has irked me since day one of owning my Tesla is the performance at red lights or stop & go traffic. The car does fine most the time at stopping within a reasonable distance to the car in front of me (it still seems to far but that may just be my personal preference since where I drive drivers are agressive) but when traffic starts moving again the car takes forever to start to move and accelerate. There seems to be a built in delay to start moving. What this does is just cause more traffic since the cars behind me will be delayed in starting to move and so on and so forth. To overcome this I usually accelerate the car myself to avoid backing up traffic but you would think a smart car would be able to accelerate with a quicker reaction than a human. Edit: see video for explanation https: youtu.be BhXBb97wieQ | whyamihereonreddit | 2019-02-22 13:08:31 | 59 | eh1f5qu | Rarely these days but in the past it was not unusual for TACC to lose your lead car if it s a garbage truck or box truck or another weird looking vehicle and just attempt to accelerate into it. That could be why the takeoff from stop is so slow. | chillaban | 2019-02-22 16:39:11 | 5 | Tesla Autopilot Performance Review |
athebc | [Discussion] Why does cruise control perform so poorly in stop & go traffic | Something that has irked me since day one of owning my Tesla is the performance at red lights or stop & go traffic. The car does fine most the time at stopping within a reasonable distance to the car in front of me (it still seems to far but that may just be my personal preference since where I drive drivers are agressive) but when traffic starts moving again the car takes forever to start to move and accelerate. There seems to be a built in delay to start moving. What this does is just cause more traffic since the cars behind me will be delayed in starting to move and so on and so forth. To overcome this I usually accelerate the car myself to avoid backing up traffic but you would think a smart car would be able to accelerate with a quicker reaction than a human. Edit: see video for explanation https: youtu.be BhXBb97wieQ | whyamihereonreddit | 2019-02-22 13:08:31 | 59 | eh1fyh9 | Has anyone had the problem where your car starts tracking the car in the lane next to you instead of In-front? When you check the lines on the screen it shows that car partly in Your lane however that car is really still in its own lane. The car then Slams on the brakes. So annoying and not sure how to fix it. | vulartweets | 2019-02-22 16:48:19 | 5 | Tesla Autopilot Performance Review |
b7wj72 | [Discussion] Why does the Model 3 not have rear cross traffic alert? | Based on the videos of enhanced summon that I ve seen the Model 3 is capable of backing out of a parking spot on its own. So clearly it has the ability to monitor cross traffic yet we don t have this as a feature. Does anyone know why? | SHULK | 2019-04-01 03:05:39 | 19 | ejuo7j1 | I believe it is a Patented system like blind spot monitoring which is why many vehicle have with the exact same function. Tesla doesn t do that stuff unfortunately. It s my favorite safety vehicle on my wife s Chevy. As you back out of a parking space it shots radar way down the left and right and shows you an arrow if someone is coming. | dinozero | 2019-04-01 03:19:09 | 7 | Miscellaneous Tesla Topic |
8eaqa3 | [Discussion] Why does the model 3 s tire rotation cost so much?? and are you paying the amount I was quoted? $185? | This is an insane price for a tire rotation. What am I missing? My local Toyota charges $22... | Nakazawaku | 2018-04-23 11:27:18 | 53 | dxtoqxy | My car doesn t come for a few weeks but I asked Costco if they would be able to do it. They said they have an instruction sheet that prints out for each car model to tell them how to raise it so I m hoping they work out. I don t have the price on hand but I m sure it s close to the $22 Toyota charged you. Costco will rotate tires they did not sell as long as you are a member. | kkal82 | 2018-04-23 11:54:13 | 29 | Tire and Wheel Maintenance |
8eaqa3 | [Discussion] Why does the model 3 s tire rotation cost so much?? and are you paying the amount I was quoted? $185? | This is an insane price for a tire rotation. What am I missing? My local Toyota charges $22... | Nakazawaku | 2018-04-23 11:27:18 | 53 | dxtp4af | Everything at Tesla is too expensive. A wheel alignment was $210 for my S | navinsiri | 2018-04-23 12:04:15 | 21 | Tire and Wheel Maintenance |
8eaqa3 | [Discussion] Why does the model 3 s tire rotation cost so much?? and are you paying the amount I was quoted? $185? | This is an insane price for a tire rotation. What am I missing? My local Toyota charges $22... | Nakazawaku | 2018-04-23 11:27:18 | 53 | dxtp5ch | Discount tire rotated our original tires on our Model S for no charge. We have bought many tires from them for other cars though. | Bluechip506 | 2018-04-23 12:05:00 | 18 | Tire and Wheel Maintenance |
8eaqa3 | [Discussion] Why does the model 3 s tire rotation cost so much?? and are you paying the amount I was quoted? $185? | This is an insane price for a tire rotation. What am I missing? My local Toyota charges $22... | Nakazawaku | 2018-04-23 11:27:18 | 53 | dxtohm0 | From Tesla? And that was the only thing you had done? That s ridiculous. That s why I m getting an extra tire so I can rotate in a fifth tire with Tesla s weird jack point. | feurie | 2018-04-23 11:47:02 | 16 | Tire and Wheel Maintenance |
8eaqa3 | [Discussion] Why does the model 3 s tire rotation cost so much?? and are you paying the amount I was quoted? $185? | This is an insane price for a tire rotation. What am I missing? My local Toyota charges $22... | Nakazawaku | 2018-04-23 11:27:18 | 53 | dxtqs64 | Yeah just go somewhere else. There s nothing special about a Tesla tire rotation. Any tire shop can do it | nalyd8991 | 2018-04-23 12:45:19 | 13 | Tire and Wheel Maintenance |
8eaqa3 | [Discussion] Why does the model 3 s tire rotation cost so much?? and are you paying the amount I was quoted? $185? | This is an insane price for a tire rotation. What am I missing? My local Toyota charges $22... | Nakazawaku | 2018-04-23 11:27:18 | 53 | dxtxb11 | Because they don t want to do it. Tesla doesn t want to be in the tire business. Who goes to dealers for tire rotation? | _ohm_my | 2018-04-23 14:47:39 | 12 | Tire and Wheel Maintenance |
8eaqa3 | [Discussion] Why does the model 3 s tire rotation cost so much?? and are you paying the amount I was quoted? $185? | This is an insane price for a tire rotation. What am I missing? My local Toyota charges $22... | Nakazawaku | 2018-04-23 11:27:18 | 53 | dxtuxll | Generally speaking Tesla s not great at tire stuff. For a very long time they couldn t even patch a tire due to company policy. They don t offer road-hazard warranty with a tire purchase and their pricing for things like rotations is high. My advice is to find a tire shop **with a road force balancer** that you can reasonably trust. Road force balancing is somewhat common on luxury cars but can be done on any car to really really dial-in the balancing and get an optimal ride. At this stage every car in my household gets RFB when the tires get rotated. It s costs $2 per tire and is absolutely worth it. | majesticjg | 2018-04-23 14:07:22 | 9 | Tire and Wheel Maintenance |
8eaqa3 | [Discussion] Why does the model 3 s tire rotation cost so much?? and are you paying the amount I was quoted? $185? | This is an insane price for a tire rotation. What am I missing? My local Toyota charges $22... | Nakazawaku | 2018-04-23 11:27:18 | 53 | dxtvml3 | Is it hard to jack the model 3 on your own? | Hiddencamper | 2018-04-23 14:19:34 | 9 | Tire and Wheel Maintenance |
8eaqa3 | [Discussion] Why does the model 3 s tire rotation cost so much?? and are you paying the amount I was quoted? $185? | This is an insane price for a tire rotation. What am I missing? My local Toyota charges $22... | Nakazawaku | 2018-04-23 11:27:18 | 53 | dxtri8g | Talk to your local Tesla Owner s Club and find out where they go. I asked a S owner near me what he did. He said he goes to a local tire shop paid $60 to be included in their program for people that purchased new tires and now he gets free tire rotations. I plan on doing the same thing when I get my Model 3 (Jun-Aug). | pwm2008 | 2018-04-23 13:01:16 | 6 | Tire and Wheel Maintenance |
8eaqa3 | [Discussion] Why does the model 3 s tire rotation cost so much?? and are you paying the amount I was quoted? $185? | This is an insane price for a tire rotation. What am I missing? My local Toyota charges $22... | Nakazawaku | 2018-04-23 11:27:18 | 53 | dxttydy | The answer to any why does X cost this much? question is the same. Because people are willing to pay for it. You might not be and that s perfectly understandable. Hell I wouldn t pay that much for a rotation. But consider that thousands of others can t be bothered so their willingness to shell out money for a simple service sets the price for the rest of us. Tesla would rather occupy their shop s time with higher value work than cater to a lower margin service. | sjogerst | 2018-04-23 13:49:53 | 5 | Tire and Wheel Maintenance |
8eaqa3 | [Discussion] Why does the model 3 s tire rotation cost so much?? and are you paying the amount I was quoted? $185? | This is an insane price for a tire rotation. What am I missing? My local Toyota charges $22... | Nakazawaku | 2018-04-23 11:27:18 | 53 | dxtvhf6 | I do my own on my S... the jack points are there just direct the person who is rotating your tire | Iwantatesla | 2018-04-23 14:17:05 | 5 | Tire and Wheel Maintenance |
ascuhq | [Discussion] Why doesn t Tesla use a heat pump to heat the car? | Teslas lose a lot of range in the winter when batteries supply cabin heat by simple electrical resistance. I heat my home with a heat pump because it is vastly more economical than resistance heat. Teslas have air conditioning so I don t understand why they would not use a heat pump to heat the car. Heat pumps can be much more efficient even below freezing. Tesla has a lot of smart engineering so there must be a readon. I just haven t heard a good explanation. | olddoc1 | 2019-02-19 17:24:38 | 14 | egtc71f | Complexity. There are already a lot of coolant lines and setting up the AC to be bidirectional would ve added significantly more. Though I do hope they manage it someday. Right now it s definitely “summertime oriented” with everything optimized for pulling heat *out* of the battery & cabin. One thing I ve been wondering about: how much heat does the battery lose passively out the bottom plate? Would there be a way to rig up some sort of insulation to sling under the car for winter driving and would that help much? | rabbitwonker | 2019-02-19 17:31:48 | 10 | Miscellaneous Tesla Topic |
ascuhq | [Discussion] Why doesn t Tesla use a heat pump to heat the car? | Teslas lose a lot of range in the winter when batteries supply cabin heat by simple electrical resistance. I heat my home with a heat pump because it is vastly more economical than resistance heat. Teslas have air conditioning so I don t understand why they would not use a heat pump to heat the car. Heat pumps can be much more efficient even below freezing. Tesla has a lot of smart engineering so there must be a readon. I just haven t heard a good explanation. | olddoc1 | 2019-02-19 17:24:38 | 14 | egtedbq | Not an expert but I thought heat pumps don t work in extreme cold. | altimas | 2019-02-19 17:55:08 | 10 | Miscellaneous Tesla Topic |
ascuhq | [Discussion] Why doesn t Tesla use a heat pump to heat the car? | Teslas lose a lot of range in the winter when batteries supply cabin heat by simple electrical resistance. I heat my home with a heat pump because it is vastly more economical than resistance heat. Teslas have air conditioning so I don t understand why they would not use a heat pump to heat the car. Heat pumps can be much more efficient even below freezing. Tesla has a lot of smart engineering so there must be a readon. I just haven t heard a good explanation. | olddoc1 | 2019-02-19 17:24:38 | 14 | egtbvw0 | https: www.tesla.com blog blowing-hot-and-cold | BraveRock | 2019-02-19 17:28:28 | 7 | Miscellaneous Tesla Topic |
ascuhq | [Discussion] Why doesn t Tesla use a heat pump to heat the car? | Teslas lose a lot of range in the winter when batteries supply cabin heat by simple electrical resistance. I heat my home with a heat pump because it is vastly more economical than resistance heat. Teslas have air conditioning so I don t understand why they would not use a heat pump to heat the car. Heat pumps can be much more efficient even below freezing. Tesla has a lot of smart engineering so there must be a readon. I just haven t heard a good explanation. | olddoc1 | 2019-02-19 17:24:38 | 14 | eguccrx | I ve always wondered why they don t use a reversible heat pump in the first place-- it already has a heat pump in it it s just set to only run in the air conditioning direction. A reversing valve would let it do double duty. You would leave the heating strips just like how home heat pumps have a backup resistive heat source for when it s too cold for the pump to work effectively. Fast heat to warm up when cold efficient heat when driving. Just need that reversing valve. Normal automotive applications don t bother with a reversible heat pump because there s something in the neighborhood of a hundred thousand watts of waste heat to work with from the ICE for cabin heating. I m sure Tesla had a reason but I don t know what it might be. While we re making HVAC comfort wishlists... can I get some cooled seats please? | raygundan | 2019-02-20 00:24:56 | 6 | Miscellaneous Tesla Topic |
aoyah9 | [Discussion] Why so much hate towards EV owners? | I ve been a fan of EVs for some time and up until 10 days ago drove a Tundra. I ve been on this sub for a while and have seen people “ICEing” superchargers and keying peoples EVs. Additionally after some pick up truck driving relatives learned of my Tesla purchase a few days ago they started making passive aggressive ranting posts on FB about EV driving young people and telling them that they can t drive their gas cars anymore because “Al Gore told them not to”. Keep in mind I am 36 and don t care what they drive at all. Nor have I made any statements to suggest so. Hell! I had a convo with one of them 2 days ago about how much I love 4Runners. The real question that I have is “what is the threat of an EV to them?” . I truly don t get it. Why would someone block a charger or key your Tesla? If anything there s less cars at the gas pump for them to wait on. I m not particularly left or right leaning. I am certainly not a tree hugger. I ve always loved great cars and Tesla is what I want right now. But I would never shit talk someone for driving any vehicle gas or other. I ve also noticed some weird shit with people driving the newer generation of muscle cars. These people would never “flex” on my truck or even the Audi I used to drive. But everyday since getting a Tesla some Charger challenger corvette or mustang overtakes me at 30 over the speed limit to prove a point. What the point is.... no idea. Keep in mind that I m driving the more “American Made” car of the all of them. That s all. Just a rant. Not angry about any of it but thoroughly confused. What s the lamest reaction that you ve received from an ICE owner? | Sam_Dean_Thumbs_Up | 2019-02-09 23:44:47 | 83 | eg4iymn | Remember how you thought about Prius owners (before Tesla was even a thing)? It was kinda a joke where a certain type of person (mostly in California) drove a Prius to show how concerned they were about the environment. You could even see the meme in some movies where the location was set in liberal California and the street was lined with Priuses(?). Tesla made EV driving cool IMHO the cars look great and they are FAST. Others focus on the cost and think Elon is a nut so there is that... Over time Teslas will become more mainstream and viewed as less of a cult choice and more of a practical option to paying for gas. In the meantime here is a cute video you might enjoy https: youtu.be d7m6ivDvWNI | hmspain | 2019-02-10 00:50:06 | 35 | Miscellaneous Tesla Topic |
aoyah9 | [Discussion] Why so much hate towards EV owners? | I ve been a fan of EVs for some time and up until 10 days ago drove a Tundra. I ve been on this sub for a while and have seen people “ICEing” superchargers and keying peoples EVs. Additionally after some pick up truck driving relatives learned of my Tesla purchase a few days ago they started making passive aggressive ranting posts on FB about EV driving young people and telling them that they can t drive their gas cars anymore because “Al Gore told them not to”. Keep in mind I am 36 and don t care what they drive at all. Nor have I made any statements to suggest so. Hell! I had a convo with one of them 2 days ago about how much I love 4Runners. The real question that I have is “what is the threat of an EV to them?” . I truly don t get it. Why would someone block a charger or key your Tesla? If anything there s less cars at the gas pump for them to wait on. I m not particularly left or right leaning. I am certainly not a tree hugger. I ve always loved great cars and Tesla is what I want right now. But I would never shit talk someone for driving any vehicle gas or other. I ve also noticed some weird shit with people driving the newer generation of muscle cars. These people would never “flex” on my truck or even the Audi I used to drive. But everyday since getting a Tesla some Charger challenger corvette or mustang overtakes me at 30 over the speed limit to prove a point. What the point is.... no idea. Keep in mind that I m driving the more “American Made” car of the all of them. That s all. Just a rant. Not angry about any of it but thoroughly confused. What s the lamest reaction that you ve received from an ICE owner? | Sam_Dean_Thumbs_Up | 2019-02-09 23:44:47 | 83 | eg4k0j0 | These are the same mouth breathers who beat people up in Jr High for listening to different music than they did. Some people never grow up. Sad. | caesartheday007 | 2019-02-10 01:05:20 | 31 | Miscellaneous Tesla Topic |
aoyah9 | [Discussion] Why so much hate towards EV owners? | I ve been a fan of EVs for some time and up until 10 days ago drove a Tundra. I ve been on this sub for a while and have seen people “ICEing” superchargers and keying peoples EVs. Additionally after some pick up truck driving relatives learned of my Tesla purchase a few days ago they started making passive aggressive ranting posts on FB about EV driving young people and telling them that they can t drive their gas cars anymore because “Al Gore told them not to”. Keep in mind I am 36 and don t care what they drive at all. Nor have I made any statements to suggest so. Hell! I had a convo with one of them 2 days ago about how much I love 4Runners. The real question that I have is “what is the threat of an EV to them?” . I truly don t get it. Why would someone block a charger or key your Tesla? If anything there s less cars at the gas pump for them to wait on. I m not particularly left or right leaning. I am certainly not a tree hugger. I ve always loved great cars and Tesla is what I want right now. But I would never shit talk someone for driving any vehicle gas or other. I ve also noticed some weird shit with people driving the newer generation of muscle cars. These people would never “flex” on my truck or even the Audi I used to drive. But everyday since getting a Tesla some Charger challenger corvette or mustang overtakes me at 30 over the speed limit to prove a point. What the point is.... no idea. Keep in mind that I m driving the more “American Made” car of the all of them. That s all. Just a rant. Not angry about any of it but thoroughly confused. What s the lamest reaction that you ve received from an ICE owner? | Sam_Dean_Thumbs_Up | 2019-02-09 23:44:47 | 83 | eg4veal | I ll be honest I have no idea where the hate comes from I drive diesel trucks typically F250s and I dream of the day I can own a Tesla. To be opposed to EVs is just arrogance and I can t stand it. | tortuga-de-fuego | 2019-02-10 03:50:36 | 25 | Miscellaneous Tesla Topic |
aoyah9 | [Discussion] Why so much hate towards EV owners? | I ve been a fan of EVs for some time and up until 10 days ago drove a Tundra. I ve been on this sub for a while and have seen people “ICEing” superchargers and keying peoples EVs. Additionally after some pick up truck driving relatives learned of my Tesla purchase a few days ago they started making passive aggressive ranting posts on FB about EV driving young people and telling them that they can t drive their gas cars anymore because “Al Gore told them not to”. Keep in mind I am 36 and don t care what they drive at all. Nor have I made any statements to suggest so. Hell! I had a convo with one of them 2 days ago about how much I love 4Runners. The real question that I have is “what is the threat of an EV to them?” . I truly don t get it. Why would someone block a charger or key your Tesla? If anything there s less cars at the gas pump for them to wait on. I m not particularly left or right leaning. I am certainly not a tree hugger. I ve always loved great cars and Tesla is what I want right now. But I would never shit talk someone for driving any vehicle gas or other. I ve also noticed some weird shit with people driving the newer generation of muscle cars. These people would never “flex” on my truck or even the Audi I used to drive. But everyday since getting a Tesla some Charger challenger corvette or mustang overtakes me at 30 over the speed limit to prove a point. What the point is.... no idea. Keep in mind that I m driving the more “American Made” car of the all of them. That s all. Just a rant. Not angry about any of it but thoroughly confused. What s the lamest reaction that you ve received from an ICE owner? | Sam_Dean_Thumbs_Up | 2019-02-09 23:44:47 | 83 | eg4hmxt | haters gonna hate hate hate | ss68and66 | 2019-02-10 00:31:32 | 13 | Miscellaneous Tesla Topic |
aoyah9 | [Discussion] Why so much hate towards EV owners? | I ve been a fan of EVs for some time and up until 10 days ago drove a Tundra. I ve been on this sub for a while and have seen people “ICEing” superchargers and keying peoples EVs. Additionally after some pick up truck driving relatives learned of my Tesla purchase a few days ago they started making passive aggressive ranting posts on FB about EV driving young people and telling them that they can t drive their gas cars anymore because “Al Gore told them not to”. Keep in mind I am 36 and don t care what they drive at all. Nor have I made any statements to suggest so. Hell! I had a convo with one of them 2 days ago about how much I love 4Runners. The real question that I have is “what is the threat of an EV to them?” . I truly don t get it. Why would someone block a charger or key your Tesla? If anything there s less cars at the gas pump for them to wait on. I m not particularly left or right leaning. I am certainly not a tree hugger. I ve always loved great cars and Tesla is what I want right now. But I would never shit talk someone for driving any vehicle gas or other. I ve also noticed some weird shit with people driving the newer generation of muscle cars. These people would never “flex” on my truck or even the Audi I used to drive. But everyday since getting a Tesla some Charger challenger corvette or mustang overtakes me at 30 over the speed limit to prove a point. What the point is.... no idea. Keep in mind that I m driving the more “American Made” car of the all of them. That s all. Just a rant. Not angry about any of it but thoroughly confused. What s the lamest reaction that you ve received from an ICE owner? | Sam_Dean_Thumbs_Up | 2019-02-09 23:44:47 | 83 | eg4j7sc | People like to join teams and also like to poke those not in their team. | racergr | 2019-02-10 00:53:40 | 13 | Miscellaneous Tesla Topic |
aoyah9 | [Discussion] Why so much hate towards EV owners? | I ve been a fan of EVs for some time and up until 10 days ago drove a Tundra. I ve been on this sub for a while and have seen people “ICEing” superchargers and keying peoples EVs. Additionally after some pick up truck driving relatives learned of my Tesla purchase a few days ago they started making passive aggressive ranting posts on FB about EV driving young people and telling them that they can t drive their gas cars anymore because “Al Gore told them not to”. Keep in mind I am 36 and don t care what they drive at all. Nor have I made any statements to suggest so. Hell! I had a convo with one of them 2 days ago about how much I love 4Runners. The real question that I have is “what is the threat of an EV to them?” . I truly don t get it. Why would someone block a charger or key your Tesla? If anything there s less cars at the gas pump for them to wait on. I m not particularly left or right leaning. I am certainly not a tree hugger. I ve always loved great cars and Tesla is what I want right now. But I would never shit talk someone for driving any vehicle gas or other. I ve also noticed some weird shit with people driving the newer generation of muscle cars. These people would never “flex” on my truck or even the Audi I used to drive. But everyday since getting a Tesla some Charger challenger corvette or mustang overtakes me at 30 over the speed limit to prove a point. What the point is.... no idea. Keep in mind that I m driving the more “American Made” car of the all of them. That s all. Just a rant. Not angry about any of it but thoroughly confused. What s the lamest reaction that you ve received from an ICE owner? | Sam_Dean_Thumbs_Up | 2019-02-09 23:44:47 | 83 | eg4m070 | These BEV-haters who are vandalizing Superchargers and keying Tesla vehicles are 21-st century Luddites the irrational hyper-emotional frightened emotional decendents of the early 19th century mobs that smashed the power looms in the new British textile mills. These mills had harnessed new sources of energy (water power in the form of water wheels and the new-fangled steam engines) to run the newly-invented automated looms than manufactured cotton and silk textiles--one of the largest and most important components of the British economy at that time. These new mills were endangering the centuries old cottage industry that produced these textiles by hand in small shops using the method of hand-powered looms that date back thousands of years. Today we have battery electric vehicles (a new source of power for transportation) that threatens the incumbent 120-year-old ICE industry with its huge number of workers just as the steam-driven power looms threated the old fashioned putting-out method using hand looms in small shops 200 years ago. Fear is the driving force behind present day Luddite vandalism as it was then--fear of losing jobs fear of the progress that leads to disruption in old established industries fear of the effort needed to retrain to stay employed. The Luddite vandalism in 19th century England was a relatively short-lived social problem that fizzled out after 10-15 years and was mostly confined to a small regions in the Midlands of England. My guess is that this modern day version will peter out just as quickly. | flshr19 | 2019-02-10 01:34:08 | 10 | Miscellaneous Tesla Topic |
aoyah9 | [Discussion] Why so much hate towards EV owners? | I ve been a fan of EVs for some time and up until 10 days ago drove a Tundra. I ve been on this sub for a while and have seen people “ICEing” superchargers and keying peoples EVs. Additionally after some pick up truck driving relatives learned of my Tesla purchase a few days ago they started making passive aggressive ranting posts on FB about EV driving young people and telling them that they can t drive their gas cars anymore because “Al Gore told them not to”. Keep in mind I am 36 and don t care what they drive at all. Nor have I made any statements to suggest so. Hell! I had a convo with one of them 2 days ago about how much I love 4Runners. The real question that I have is “what is the threat of an EV to them?” . I truly don t get it. Why would someone block a charger or key your Tesla? If anything there s less cars at the gas pump for them to wait on. I m not particularly left or right leaning. I am certainly not a tree hugger. I ve always loved great cars and Tesla is what I want right now. But I would never shit talk someone for driving any vehicle gas or other. I ve also noticed some weird shit with people driving the newer generation of muscle cars. These people would never “flex” on my truck or even the Audi I used to drive. But everyday since getting a Tesla some Charger challenger corvette or mustang overtakes me at 30 over the speed limit to prove a point. What the point is.... no idea. Keep in mind that I m driving the more “American Made” car of the all of them. That s all. Just a rant. Not angry about any of it but thoroughly confused. What s the lamest reaction that you ve received from an ICE owner? | Sam_Dean_Thumbs_Up | 2019-02-09 23:44:47 | 83 | eg4le7x | Multiple things feed into this. Some that I haven t seen mentioned yet are: * Effects of European news articles about proposals to ban new ICE sales * Effects of the feeling that the government is gonna take my _____ . Fill in the blank with gun incandescent light bulb ICE truck freedom to pollute ability to break new trails in national parks etc. In short individualism to the point that nothing else matters even if personal actions infringe on the rights of others. | colddata | 2019-02-10 01:25:13 | 9 | Miscellaneous Tesla Topic |
aoyah9 | [Discussion] Why so much hate towards EV owners? | I ve been a fan of EVs for some time and up until 10 days ago drove a Tundra. I ve been on this sub for a while and have seen people “ICEing” superchargers and keying peoples EVs. Additionally after some pick up truck driving relatives learned of my Tesla purchase a few days ago they started making passive aggressive ranting posts on FB about EV driving young people and telling them that they can t drive their gas cars anymore because “Al Gore told them not to”. Keep in mind I am 36 and don t care what they drive at all. Nor have I made any statements to suggest so. Hell! I had a convo with one of them 2 days ago about how much I love 4Runners. The real question that I have is “what is the threat of an EV to them?” . I truly don t get it. Why would someone block a charger or key your Tesla? If anything there s less cars at the gas pump for them to wait on. I m not particularly left or right leaning. I am certainly not a tree hugger. I ve always loved great cars and Tesla is what I want right now. But I would never shit talk someone for driving any vehicle gas or other. I ve also noticed some weird shit with people driving the newer generation of muscle cars. These people would never “flex” on my truck or even the Audi I used to drive. But everyday since getting a Tesla some Charger challenger corvette or mustang overtakes me at 30 over the speed limit to prove a point. What the point is.... no idea. Keep in mind that I m driving the more “American Made” car of the all of them. That s all. Just a rant. Not angry about any of it but thoroughly confused. What s the lamest reaction that you ve received from an ICE owner? | Sam_Dean_Thumbs_Up | 2019-02-09 23:44:47 | 83 | eg4nzfu | Half this country is brainwashed by fossil fuel puppets. | teslacometrue | 2019-02-10 02:02:58 | 9 | Miscellaneous Tesla Topic |
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