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re apollo training in iceland the apollo astronauts also trained at in meteor crater in the flagstaff area arizona there is now a museum with a space shop caution they ease you by compared to a ksc visit it s not worth thorsten nedderhut disclaimer mbp software systems gmbh c o esa esoc fcsd oad stb neither esa nor mbp is responsible darmstadt germany for my postings tnedderh esoc bitnet
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cold gas tanks for sounding rockets does anyone know how to size cold gas roll control thruster tanks for sounding rockets well first you work out how much cold gas you need then make the tanks big enough working out how much cold gas is another problem depending on vehicle configuration flight duration thruster isp which couples into storage pressure which may be a factor in selecting tank wall thickness etc ralph lorenz unit for space sciences university of kent uk
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big amateur rockets i was reading popular science this morning and was surprised by an ad in the back i know that a lot of the ads in the back of ps are fringe science or questionablely legal but this one really grabbed my attention it was from a company name personal missle inc or something like that anyhow the ad stated that they d sell rockets that were up to in length and engines of sizes f to m they also said that some rockets will reach feet now aside from the obvious dangers to any amateur rocketeer using one of these beasts isn t this illegal i can t imagine the faa allowing people to shoot rockets up through the flight levels of passenger planes not to even mention the problem of locating a rocket when it comes down and no i m not going to even think of buying one i m not that crazy paul mine ll do feet and carries pounds of dynamite dokas include std disclaimer define full name paul dokas define email pbd runyon cim cdc com just remember you will die someday
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re shuttle oxygen was budget astronaut henry zoo toronto edu henry spencer writes there is an emergency oxygen system that is capable of maintaining a breathable atmosphere in the cabin for long enough to come down even if there is something like a cm hole in the wall that nobody tries to plug josh hopkins jbh uxa cso uiuc edu replied wow double wow can you land a shuttle with a cm hole in the wall personnally i don t know but i d like to try it sometime programmatically yes we can land an orbiter with a cm hole in the wall provided that the thing which caused cm hole didn t cause a crit failure on some of the internal systems there are a few places where a cm hole would cause a bad day especially if the cm hole went all the way through the orbiter and out the other side as could easily happen with a meteor strike but a hole in the pressure vessel would cause us to immediately de orbit to the next available landing site ken jenks nasa jsc gm space shuttle program office kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov nasa turns dreams into realities and makes science fiction into fact daniel s goldin nasa administrator
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japanese moon landing afraid i can t give any more info on this and hoping someone in greter netland has some details a short story in the newspaper a few days ago made some sort of mention about how the japanese using what sounded like a gravity assist had just managed to crash or crash land a package on the moon the article was very vague and unclear and to make matters worse i didn t clip it does this jog anyone s memory thanks dannyb panix com
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re big amateur rockets in article c ky y mkk raistlin udev cdc com pbd runyon cim cdc com paul dokas writes anyhow the ad stated that they d sell rockets that were up to in length and engines of sizes f to m they also said that some rockets will reach feet now aside from the obvious dangers to any amateur rocketeer using one of these beasts isn t this illegal i can t imagine the faa allowing people to shoot rockets up through the flight levels of passenger planes the situation in this regard has changed considerably in recent years see the discussion of high power rocketry in the rec models rockets frequently asked questions list this is not hardware you can walk in off the street and buy you need proper certification that can be had mostly through tripoli the high power analog of the nar although the nar is cautiously moving to extend the upper boundaries of what it considers proper too you need special faa authorization but provided you aren t doing it under one of the lax runway approaches or something stupid like that it s not especially hard to arrange as with model rocketry this sort of hardware is reasonably safe if handled properly proper handling takes more care and you need a lot more empty air to fly in but it s basically just model rocketry scaled up as with model rocketry the high power people use factory built engines which eliminates the major safety hazard of do it yourself rocketry all work is one man s work henry spencer u of toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
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re a wrench in the works nanderso endor sim es com norman anderson writes jmcocker eos ncsu edu mitch writes effect that one of the ssrbs that was recovered after the recent space shuttle launch was found to have a wrench of some sort rattling around apparently inside the case i heard a similar statement in our local news utah tonight they referred to the tool as the pliers that took a ride into space they also said that a thiokol sp employee had reported missing a tool of some kind during assembly of one srb i assume then that someone at thiokol put on their manager s hat and said that pissing off the customer by delaying shipment of the srb to look inside it was a bad idea regardless of where that tool might have ended up why do i get the feeling that thiokol manager s hats are shaped like cones
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re how many read sci space rborden ugly uvic ca ross borden writes in article f permanet org mark prado p f n z permane one could go on and on and on here but i wonder how many people read sci space and of what power influence are these individuals quick everyone who sees this post a reply that says hey i read sci space then we can count them and find out how many there are this will also help answer that nagging question just what is the maximum bandwidth of the internet anyways as an amateur radio operator vhf metres i like to keep up with what is going up and for that matter what is coming down too in about days i have learned alot about satellites current future and past all the way back to vanguard series and up to astro d observatory space i borrowed a book from the library called weater satellites i think it has a photo of the earth with a tiros type satellite on it i would like to build a model or have a large color poster of one of the tiros satellites i think there are places in the usa that sell them itos is my favorite looking satellite followed by amsat oscar ao ttyl jim jim inqmind bison mb ca the inquiring mind bbs winnipeg manitoba
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re shuttle oxygen was budget astronaut in article apr aio jsc nasa gov kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov writes josh hopkins jbh uxa cso uiuc edu replied double wow can you land a shuttle with a cm hole in the wall personnally i don t know but i d like to try it sometime are you volunteering but a hole in the pressure vessel would cause us to immediately de orbit to the next available landing site will nasa have available landing sites in the russian republic now that they are our friends and comrades software engineering that s like military intelligence isn t it sysmgr cadlab eng umd edu
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sixty two thousand was re how many read sci space reply address mark prado permanet org if anyone knows anyone else who would like to get sci space but doesn t have an internet feed or has a cryptic internet feed i would be willing to feed it to them i have a nice offline message reader editor an automated modem mailer program which will pick up mail bundles quickly and easily and an install exe to set them up painlessly no charge for the sci space feed though you have to dial washington d c this is not a bbs it s a store forward system for mail bundles with minimum connect times i m used to overseas calls this is not an offer for a free feed for any other particular newsgroups speeds of up to v bis are supported vip s might be offered other free services such as internet address and other functionality i get my feed from uunet and run a line hub i ve been hubbing for years i have an extremely reliable hub the software i provide runs under ms dos and os and windows as a dos box other compatible software packages exist for the macintosh and unix any responses should be private and go to mark prado permanet org by the way to all my apologies for the public traffic on my glib question i really didn t expect public replys but thanks to bill higgins for the interesting statistics and the lead origin permannet ftsc internet gateway
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re japanese moon landing in article c kys c r panix com dannyb panix com daniel burstein writes a short story in the newspaper a few days ago made some sort of mention about how the japanese using what sounded like a gravity assist had just managed to crash or crash land a package on the moon their hiten engineering test mission spent a while in a highly eccentric earth orbit doing lunar flybys and then was inserted into lunar orbit using some very tricky gravity assist like maneuvering this meant that it would crash on the moon eventually since there is no such thing as a stable lunar orbit as far as anyone knows and i believe i recall hearing recently that it was about to happen all work is one man s work henry spencer u of toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
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re big amateur rockets in article c ky y mkk raistlin udev cdc com pbd runyon cim cdc com paul dokas writes i was reading popular science this morning and was surprised by an ad in the back i know that a lot of the ads in the back of ps are fringe science or questionablely legal but this one really grabbed my attention it was from a company name personal missle inc or something like that anyhow the ad stated that they d sell rockets that were up to in length and engines of sizes f to m they also said that some rockets will reach feet now aside from the obvious dangers to any amateur rocketeer using one of these beasts isn t this illegal i can t imagine the faa allowing people to shoot rockets up through the flight levels of passenger planes not to even mention the problem of locating a rocket when it comes down and no i m not going to even think of buying one i m not that crazy paul mine ll do feet and carries pounds of dynamite dokas could it be public missile inc in michigan from the description of ad here it sounds like they re talking about high power rocketry an outgrowth of model rocketry this hobby uses non metallic structural compoments and commerically manufactured engines ranging in impulse classification from g to p the hobby has been flourishing from early s and is becoming increasing popular technically this is not consider amateur rocketry any rocket with a liftoff weight greater than pounds or using a total impulse of g or greater requires an faa waiver to launch typically a group of people get an faa waiver for specified period of time ie week weekend etc at a designated site and time and all of the launches are then covered under this blanket waiver there is also a high power safety code which designates more specific rules such as launch field size etc finally in order to purchase any of the larger class b rocket motors you need to certified through either the national association of rocketry or tripoli rocketry association certification procedures require a demonstarted handling and safe flight at a total impulse level for more information watch rec models rockets newsgroup r michael jungclas uucp att ihlpb rjungcla at t bell labs naperville il internet rjungcla ihlpb att com
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re big amateur rockets let s see these aren t in a strict sense amateur rockets that term denotes rockets the engines of which are constructed by the user the rockets you describe are called hpr or high power rockets to distinguish them from smaller model rockets they use factory made ammonium perchlorate composite propellants in phenolic plastic engines with graphite nozzles the engines are classified by impulse a d engine for example can have no more than newton seconds of impulse an f engine can have no more than ns each letter corresponds to a doubling of the maximum impulse so far engines up to size o are available pretty much off the shelf engines of size h and above are shipped as class b explosives and as such are controlled engines of size f and below are shipped as class c explosives and are not as controlled class f engines btw are not hpr engines but model rocket engines class g engines go in and out of legal limbo there is an hpr society the tripoli rocket society i believe which holds events at various sites throughout the year with all legalities faa waiver included taken care of the national association of rocketry is more concerned with engines below h though it is involved in hpr as well these societies certify users of hpr rockets and companies will not sell to uncertified individuals bottom line it s legit i suggest you send for a catalog but forget the dynamite will ya larry c
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space event near los angeles ca apologies if this gets posted twice but i don t think the first one made it for immediate release contact oasis april los angeles ca local national space society chapters sponsor talk by l a advocate of lunar power system as energy source for the world on april the oasis and ventura county chapters of the national space society will sponsor a talk by lunar power system lps co inventor and vice president of the lps coalition dr robert d waldron it will be held at p m at the rockwell science center in thousand oaks ca dr waldron is currently a technical specialist in space materials processing with the space systems division of rockwell international in downey california he is a recognized world authority on lunar materials refinement he has written or coauthored more than articles or reports on nonterrestrial materials processing or utilization along with dr david criswell waldron invented the lunar solar power system concept momentum is building for a coalition of entrepreneurs legal experts and soviet and u s scientists and engineers to build the lunar power system a pollution free energy source with a potential to power the globe for the past three years members of the coalition nearly half from california have rejuvenated the commercial and scientific concept of a solar power system based on the moon the lps concept entails collecting solar energy on the lunar surface and beaming the power to earth as microwaves transmitted through orbiting antennae a mature lps offers an enormous source of clean sustainable power to meet the earth s ever increasing demand using proven basic technology oasis organization for the advancement of space industrialization is the greater los angeles chapter of the national space society which is an international non profit organization that promotes development of the space frontier the ventura county chapter is based in oxnard ca where rockwell science center auditorium camino dos rios thousand oaks ca directions ventura freeway to thousand oaks exit onto lynn road heading north right turn from north left turn from south after about mile turn left on camino dos rios after about mile make first right into rockwell after camino colindo parking at top of hill to the left
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re big amateur rockets actually they are legal i not familiar with the ad you are speaking of but knowing popular science it is probably on the fringe however you may be speaking of public missle inc which is a legitimate company that has been around for a while due to advances in composite fuels engines are now available for model rockets using similar composites to srb fuel roughly times more powerful than black powder motors they are even available in a reloadable form i e aluminum casing end casings o rings the engines range from d all the way to m in common manufacture n and o i ve heard of used at special occasions to be a model rocket however the rocket can t contain any metal structural parts amongst other requirements i ve never heard of a model rocket doing i have heard of foot flights these require faa waivers of course there are a few large national launches ldrs fireballs at which you can see many k sized engine flights actually using a g engine constitutes the area of high power rocketry which is seperate from normal model rocketry purchase of engines like i have been describing require membership in the national association of rocketry the tripoli rocketry assoc or you have to be part of an educational institute or company involved in rocketry amatuer rocketry is another area i m not really familiar with this but it is an area where metal parts are allowed along with liquid fuels and what not i don t know what kind of regulations are involved but i m sure they are numerous high power rocketry is very exciting if you are interested or have more questions there is a newsgroup rec model rockets
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re dc x update in apr iti org aws iti org allen w sherzer writes as for the future there is at least m in next years budget for work on ssrt they sdio have been looking for more funds and do seem to have some however sdio is not i repeat is not going to fund an orbital prototype the best we can hope from them is to keep it alive for another year and fund a suborbital vehicle which might with major modifications just make orbit there is also some money for a set of prototype tanks and projects to answer a few more open questions would the sub orbital version be suitable as is or as will be for use as a reuseable sounding rocket better news comes from the new spacelifter effort the usaf managers of this program are very open to ssto and will have about m next year for studies this would be enough to bring dc y to pdr thank ghod i had thought that spacelifter would definitely be the bastard son of nls and just as a reminder now not all of this money will go to dc but a good case could be made for spending half on dc public support is still critical meet with your congressperson i ll help you do it and get his her support also call your local media and get them to cover the flight tests
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re a wrench in the works from another space forum now where did i leave those pliers when workers at the kennedy space center disassembled the sts solid rocket boosters they were surprised to find a pair of pliers lodged into the outside base of the right hand srb the tool survived the trip from the launch pad up to approximately a foot altitude then down to splashdown and towing back to ksc nasa spokesperson lisa malone told the media it s been a long time since something like this happened we ve lost washers and bolts before but never a tool like this the initial investigation into the incident has shown that a thiokol corp technician noticed and reported his pliers as missing on april nd unfortunately the worker s supervisor did not act on the report and discovery was launched with its extra payload nasa officials were never told of the missing tool before the april th launch date the free flying pliers were supposed to be tethered to the srb technician when the tool was found in an aft section of the booster its inch long rope was still attached the pliers were found in a part of the booster which is not easily visible from the launch pad ron s ed note naaahhh just too easy a spokesperson for the lockheed space operations company said that the shuttle processor will take appropriate action thiokol is a subcontractor to lsoc for work to prepare shuttle hardware for launch karl anderson dev configuration management version control dept k rochester minnesota tie internet karl vnet ibm com prodigy cmmg a to seek to strive to find and not to yield alfred lord tennyson
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re a wrench in the works in article ksr com jfw ksr com john f woods writes nanderso endor sim es com norman anderson writes jmcocker eos ncsu edu mitch writes effect that one of the ssrbs that was recovered after the recent space shuttle launch was found to have a wrench of some sort rattling around apparently inside the case i heard a similar statement in our local news utah tonight they referred to the tool as the pliers that took a ride into space they also said that a thiokol sp employee had reported missing a tool of some kind during assembly of one srb it was a test of the first reusable tool i assume then that someone at thiokol put on their manager s hat and said that pissing off the customer by delaying shipment of the srb to look inside it was a bad idea regardless of where that tool might have ended up why do i get the feeling that thiokol manager s hats are shaped like cones pointy so they can find them or so they will stick into their pants better and be closer to their brains dillon pyron the opinions expressed are those of the ti dseg lewisville vax support sender unless otherwise stated when i m here when i m home texans vote no on robin hood we need pyron skndiv dseg ti com solutions not gestures padi dm
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re japanese moon landing in article c kys c r panix com dannyb panix com daniel burstein writes a short story in the newspaper a few days ago made some sort of mention about how the japanese using what sounded like a gravity assist had just managed to crash or crash land a package on the moon the japanese spacecraft hiten crashed on the moon last weekend for the past three years it has made several lunar flybys and even did some aerobraking experiments with earth s atmosphere it was placed in lunar orbit in february and i guess it finally ran out of fuel and was unable to maintain its orbit around the moon ron baalke baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov jet propulsion lab m s telos the aweto from new zealand pasadena ca is part caterpillar and part vegetable
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washington post article on us russian space cooperation reported yesterday in the washington post kathy sawyer writer the article plays down the russian role in us space gibbons science advisor to clinton sent goldin a letter indicating nasa should not limit redesign options to those compatible with mir orbit the white house thinks expectations for russian cooperation have been raised too high the article reports that some think the spending and schedule limits for space station are so stringent that the redesign is nearly impossible that s why some think goldin has begun looking at russian hardware goldin states nasa will present all options to the administration which will then have decision making power goldin and the white house have totally ruled out using energia to boost the station chuck divine
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re japanese moon landing in article c l xt iqd zoo toronto edu henry zoo toronto edu henry spencer writes in article c kys c r panix com dannyb panix com daniel burstein writes a short story in the newspaper a few days ago made some sort of mention about how the japanese using what sounded like a gravity assist had just managed to crash or crash land a package on the moon their hiten engineering test mission spent a while in a highly eccentric earth orbit doing lunar flybys and then was inserted into lunar orbit using some very tricky gravity assist like maneuvering this meant that it would crash on the moon eventually since there is no such thing as a stable lunar orbit as far as anyone knows and i believe i recall hearing recently that it was about to happen the gravity maneuvering that was used was to exploit fuzzy regions these are described by the inventor as exploiting the second order perturbations in a three body system the probe was launched into this region for the earth moon sun system where the perturbations affected it in such a way as to allow it to go into lunar orbit without large expenditures of fuel to slow down the idea is that natural objects sometimes get captured without expending fuel we ll just find the trajectory that makes it possible the originator of the technique said that nasa wasn t interested but that japan was because their probe was small and couldn t hold a lot of fuel for deceleration this from an issue of science news or the planetary report i believe about months ago raymond l swartz jr rls uihepa hep uiuc edu i read the newspaper today and was amazed that in hours five billion people could accomplish so little
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orion drive in vacuum how background the orion spacedrive was a theoretical concept it would be a drive using thermonuclear explosions to drive a spacecraft the idea was that you d detonate devices with somewhere from one to ten megatons yield behind a pusher plate attached to the main spacecraft the shock wave from the explosions would transfer momentum to the ship now in an atmosphere i can see this the energy of the explosion heats the atmosphere which expands explosively and slams a shock wave into the pusher plate but in a vacuum only two things i can see are going to hit the plate fission fusion products barium krypton helium neutrons evaporated bomb casing and electromagnetic radiation gammas mostly some light heat from irradiated fission products would this work i can t see the em radiation impelling very much momentum especially given the mass of the pusher plate and it seems to me you re going to get more momentum transfer throwing the bombs out the back of the ship than you get from detonating them once they re there i must be missing something would someone enlighten me via email thanks jim jim goltz alternet engineer goltz uunet uu net
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how to read sci space without netnews in article f permanet org mark prado p f n z permanet org mark prado writes if anyone knows anyone else who would like to get sci space but doesn t have an internet feed or has a cryptic internet feed i would be willing to feed it to them kudos to mark for his generous offer but there already exists a large email based forwarding system for sci space posts space digest it mirrors sci space exactly and provides simple two way communication to subscribe send the following message in the body not subject of an email message subscribe space john q public to one of these addresses listserv uga listserv uga cc uga edu listserv finhutc listserv finhuc hut fi space request isu isunet edu you ll receive all the posts in digest form once a day please use a listserv if you can the space request address is handled manually to post messages send your message with a reasonable subject line to space isu isunet edu questions comments to space request isu isunet edu mark maimone phone carnegie mellon computer science email mwm cmu edu
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re japanese moon landing in article c ldod pc news cso uiuc edu rls uihepa hep uiuc edu writes allow it to go into lunar orbit without large expenditures of fuel to slow down the idea is that natural objects sometimes get captured without expending fuel we ll just find the trajectory that makes it possible the originator of the technique said that nasa wasn t interested but that japan was because their probe was small and couldn t hold a lot of fuel for deceleration actually hiten wasn t originally intended to go into lunar orbit at all so it indeed didn t have much fuel on hand the lunar orbit mission was an afterthought after hagoromo a tiny subsatellite deployed by hiten during a lunar flyby had a transmitter failure and its proper insertion into lunar orbit couldn t be positively confirmed it should be noted that the technique does have disadvantages it takes a long time and you end up with a relatively inconvenient lunar orbit if you want something useful like a low circular polar orbit you do have to plan to expend a certain amount of fuel although it is reduced from what you d need for the brute force approach all work is one man s work henry spencer u of toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
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re orion drive in vacuum how in article qn bginn s mimi uu net goltz mimi uu net james p goltz writes would this work i can t see the em radiation impelling very much momentum especially given the mass of the pusher plate and it seems to me you re going to get more momentum transfer throwing the bombs out the back of the ship than you get from detonating them once they re there the orion concept as actually proposed as opposed to the way it has been somewhat misrepresented in some fiction included wrapping a thick layer of reaction mass probably plastic of some sort around each bomb the bomb vaporizes the reaction mass and it s that which transfers momentum to the pusher plate all work is one man s work henry spencer u of toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
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re shuttle oxygen was budget astronaut i thought that under emergency conditions the sts can put down at any good size airport if it could take a c or a then it can take an orbiter you just need a vor tac i don t know if they need ils pat anyone know for sure
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re how many read sci space in article apr sol uvic ca rborden ugly uvic ca ross borden writes in article qjs j access digex net prb access digex com pat writes in the old days their used to be arbitron stats that analyzed the readership and posting volumes by group and user they were available from uunet that s how you check the readership of sci space not some stupid unscientific attempt to flood the newsgroup i have abetter idea why don t we all reply directly to the origanator of this post and tell him we read sci space pat sigh i try to make a little joke i try to inject some humour here and what happens in the immortal words of foghorn leghorn i say that was a joke son i thought that the bit about mcelwaine not to mention the two smileys would indicate to even the most humour impaired that i was joking sigh and will everyone who pat s suggestion thanks bunches pat please stop sending me email i shot a man just to watch him die ross borden i m going to disneyland rborden ra uvic ca now i had put a wink at the end of my suggestion indicating it was intensely sarcastic i can t help it if everyone got all serious ross i never saw your original posting it dropped on the floor somewhere i just saw the trickle down thought it was intensely stupid not knowing anything about the joke mentioned arbitron and left it with an equally stupid joke bill in his ever increasing devotion to thoroughness dug up several arbitron stats i myself think the arbitron stats are severely methodologically impaired but are a good measure of proportion i don t think anyone knows how many people read news anymore pat
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re japanese moon landing there is no such thing as a stable lunar orbit is it right that is new stuff for me so it means that you just can not put a sattellite around around the moon for too long because its orbit will be unstable if so what is the reason is that because the combined gravitacional atraction of the sun moon and earth that does not provide a stable orbit around the moon c o egalon larc nasa gov c o egalon larc nasa gov claudio oliveira egalon
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portuguese launch complex was doppelganger portugese launch complex were wonderful portuguese launch complex gosh polish are for american in the same way as portuguese are for brazilians i am from brazil there is a joke about the portuguese space agency that wanted to send a portuguese astronaut to the surface of the sun if there is such a thing how did they solve all problems of sending a man to the surface of the sun simple their astronauts travelled during the night c o egalon larc nasa gov c o egalon larc nasa gov claudio oliveira egalon
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re space news from feb aw st marshall is investigating a small but odd pressure rise in one srb during the jan endeavour launch it lasted only three seconds and the thrust difference between the two srbs was not enough to cause nozzle gimballing the srb casing shows no abnormalities is this the one that had the wrench pliers found inside after recovery
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quotation lowest bidder can someone please remind me who said a well known quotation he was sitting atop a rocket awaiting liftoff and afterwards in answer to the question what he had been thinking about said approximately half a million components each has to work perfectly each supplied by the lowest bidder attribution and correction of the quote would be much appreciated clive trotman
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moscow aviation institute summer school i have attached a copy of an announcement i picked up during my trip to moscow last week i have several friends at the moscow aviation institute who have asked me to post this announcement i have done some editing but the contents is unchanged from the original announcement for those of you not familiar with the moscow aviation institute it is the leading russian school of higher education dedicated to the training of aircraft and spacecraft designers it specializes in airframe design powerplant design control systems and power systems virtually all of the major former soviet airframe designers tupolev su iluchine migoyan etc were schooled at mai i had the opportunity to tour the two museums that are maintained at mai the aircraft include mig su yak the cockpit of an f among others it was a fascinating and eye opening experience expecially given the fact that the museum was until a year or so ago closed to virtually everyone i also had the opportunity to see some of the experiments being conducted with plasma drive engines for future space craft use if you have any questions about the institute or the program i would be glad to try and answer them the institute and most of it s faculty have e mail addresses however it takes about a day or so for the receiver to get the message they are still a bit antiquated but they are rapidly changing steve emmett semmett gmuvax gmu edu ps please send any questions you have for me via e mail george mason university has about a week delay in news feed delivery moscow international aviation school the aviation school poljot meaning flight is organized by the the moscow aviation institute the prominent russian center of airspace education and the foreign trade firm poljot well known in various parts of the world for their quartz and mechanical wrist watches the course of studies will last only days but during this time you will have the unique opportunity to listen to intensive courses on the main aviation disciplines the history and theory of techniques and design of airplanes to visit and get acquainted with the world known russian aviation firms tu mig yak il and su to meet and have discussions with famous aviation scientists engineers and pilots to visit the most interesting museums of unique aviation techniques which were closed for many years to the public to see the international airspace show which will take place in moscow from august through september to visit famous art museums historical and architectural monuments theatres and concert halls to take part in sport competitions and have a great time with new friends the director of the school is mr oleg samelovich a well known russian scientist professor general designer and the chief of the airplanes design department of the moscow aviation institute mr samelovich is one of the designers of the the su su and su the lectures are given in english using a multi media concept the students are provided with all the necessary text books and literature after the full course of studies are completed the student will receive a special certificate of graduation the cost of studies including hotel meals excursions theatres etc is to apply for admission send your application to moscow marksistskaja foreign trade firm poljot phone fax polex su telex in your application include your full name address date and place of birth in addition include complete passport information as well as a description of your education upon receipt of this information poljot will immediately forward to you an official invitation for obtaining a russian entrance visa as well as details on payment should you require additional information please do not hesitate to contact us signed o samelovich steve emmett semmett gmuvax gmu edu csi physics george mason university
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orion space drive an excellent reference for non technical readers on the orion system is the starflight handbook by eugene mallove and gregory matloff isbn the relevant chapter is nuclear pulse propulsion the book also contains lots of technical references for the more academically inclined enjoy c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c nathan f wallace c c reality is c c e mail wallacen cs colostate edu c c ancient alphaean proverb c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c
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japanese moon landing temporary orbit rls uihepa hep uiuc edu ray swartz oh that guy again writes the gravity maneuvering that was used was to exploit fuzzy regions these are described by the inventor as exploiting the second order perturbations in a three body system the probe was launched into this region for the earth moon sun system where the perturbations affected it in such a way as to allow it to go into lunar orbit without large expenditures of fuel to slow down the idea is that natural objects sometimes get captured without expending fuel we ll just find the trajectory that makes it possible the originator of the technique said that nasa wasn t interested but that japan was because their probe was small and couldn t hold a lot of fuel for deceleration i should probably re post this with another title so that the guys on the other thread would see that this is a practical use of temporary orbits another possible temporary orbit phil fraering seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff pgf srl cacs usl edu like how the ancient mayans had televison repo man
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re japanese moon landing in article qnb tinn ff rave larc nasa gov c o egalon larc nasa gov claudio oliveira egalon writes there is no such thing as a stable lunar orbit is it right that is new stuff for me so it means that you just can not put a sattellite around around the moon for too long because its orbit will be unstable if so what is the reason is that because the combined gravitacional atraction of the sun moon and earth that does not provide a stable orbit around the moon any lunar satellite needs fuel to do regular orbit corrections and when its fuel runs out it will crash within months the orbits of the apollo motherships changed noticeably during lunar missions lasting only a few days it is possible that there are stable orbits here and there the moon s gravitational field is poorly mapped but we know of none perturbations from sun and earth are relatively minor issues at low altitudes the big problem is that the moon s own gravitational field is quite lumpy due to the irregular distribution of mass within the moon all work is one man s work henry spencer u of toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
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two line orbital element set space shuttle the most current orbital elements from the norad two line element sets are carried on the celestial bbs and are updated daily when possible documentation and tracking software are also available on this system as a service to the satellite user community the most current elements for the current shuttle mission are provided below the celestial bbs may be accessed hours day at or bps using data bits stop bit no parity element sets also updated daily shuttle elements and some documentation and software are also available via anonymous ftp from archive afit af mil in the directory pub space sts u a b u b dr ts kelso assistant professor of space operations tkelso afit af mil air force institute of technology
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re guns for space in reference to the limits of acceleration with guns launching solid rockets as payloads thiokol provided me with samples and data on a reinforcement to solid motor grains for high accelerations solid motor propellants usually have a substantial percentage of aluminum in the mix for example the space shuttle srbs are percent aluminum the technique is to use a foamed aluminum structure the structure looks like the inverse of a set of bubbles an i suspect some bubbling process is used to form it in other words if you made a bunch of bubbles in molten aluminum then froze it this is what you get it forms a strong network of effectively aluminum wires in all directions the remaining solid fuel mix is infiltrated into the voids and you get aluminum reinforced solid propellant the foamed aluminum makes up about percent of the total propellant so there is still aluminum particles in the bulk grain the major improvement is the higher resistance to grain cracking which is the principal failure mode for solid propellant dani eder dani eder meridian investment company w h rt box athens al location deg n deg w m alt
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re guns for space okay lets get the record straight on the livermore gas gun the project manager is dr john hunter and he works for the laser group at livermore what you may ask does gas guns have to do with lasers nothing really but the gun is physically located across the road from the free electron laser building and the fel building has a heavily shielded control room thick walls from which the gun firings are controlled so i suspect that the office he works for is an administrative convenience i visited hunter at the beginning of feb and we toured the gun at the time i was working on gas gun r d at boeing where i work but i am now doing other things helping to save the space station the gun uses a methane air mixture which is burned in a chamber about ft long by inch id i e it looks like a pipe the chamber holds a ton piston which is propelled at several hundred m s down the chamber on the other side of the piston is hudrogen gas initially at room temperature andsome tens of atmospheres the piston compresses and heats the hydrogen ahead of it until a stainless steel burst diaphragm ruptures at around psi the barrel of the gun is about feet long and has a inch bore it is mounted at right angles to the chamber i e they intersect this was done so that in the future the barrel could be raised and the gun fired into the air without having to move the larger and heavier chamber the projectile being used in testing is a kg cylinder of lexan plastic in in diameter and about cm long all of the acceleration comes from the expansion of the hydrogen gas from psi downwards until the projectile leaves the barrel the barrel is evacuated and the end is sealed with a sheet of plastic film a little thicker than saran wrap the plastic is blown off by the small amount of residual air trapped in the barrel ahead of the projectile the gun is fired into a bunker filled with sandbags and plastic water jugs in the early testing fragments of the plastic projectile were found at the higher speeds in later testing the projectile vaporizes the testing is into a bunker because the livermore test range is about miles across and the projectile would go km if fired for maximum range the intent is to move the whole gun to vandenberg afb after the testing is complete where they can fire into the pacific ocean and use the tracking radar at vafb to follow the projectiles the design goal of the gun is to throw a kg projectile at km s half of orbital speed so far they have reached km s and the gun is currently down for repairs as on the last test they blew a seal and damaged some of the hardware i think it had to do with the methane air more detonating than burning but i haven t had a chance to talk to hunter directly on this there are people waiting to test scramjet components in this gun by firing then out of the gun into the air at mach km s since the most you can get in wind tunnels is mach this gun cost about million to develop and is basically a proof of concept for a bigger gun capable of firing useful sized payloads into space this would require on the order of kg projectiles which deliver on the order of kg useful payload to orbit dani eder dani eder meridian investment company w h rt box athens al location deg n deg w m alt
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re elevator to the top floor reading from a amoco performance products data sheet their erl resin with t carbon fiber reinforcement has a compressive strength of psi it has a density of lb cu in therefore the theoretical height for a constant section column that can just support itself is million inches or ft or statute miles now a real structure will have horizontal bracing either a truss type or guy wires or both and will be used below the crush strength let us assume that we will operate at of the theoretical strength this gives a working height of miles for a constant section column a constant section column is not the limit on how high you can build something if you allow a tapering of the cross section as you go up for example let us say you have a pound load to support at the top of the tower for simplicity in calculation this requires square inches of column cross sectional area to support the weight the mile of structure below the payload will itself weigh lb so at mile below the payload the total load is now lb a increase the next mile of structure must be thicker in cross section to support the top mile of tower plus the payload each mile of structure must increase in area by the same ratio all the way to the bottom we can see from this that there is no theoretical limit on area although there will be practical limits based on how much composites we can afford to by at lb and how much load you need to support on the ground for which you need a foundation that the bedrock can support let us arbitrarily choose billion as the limit in costruction cost with this we can afford perhaps lb of composites assuming our finished structure costs lb the lb figure is just for materials cost then we have a tower payload mass ratio of at a mass ratio per mile the tower height becomes miles this is clearly above the significant atmosphere a rocket launched from the top of the tower will still have to provide orbital velocity but atmospheric drag and g losses will be almost eliminated g losses are the component of rocket thrust in the vertical direction to counter gravity but which do not contribute to horizontal orbital velocity thus they represent wasted thrust together with drag rockets starting from the ground have a velocity penalty to contend with this analysis is simplified in that it does not consider wind loads these will require more structural support over the first miles of height above that the air pressure drops to a low enough value for it not to be a big factor dani eder dani eder meridian investment company w h rt box athens al location deg n deg w m alt
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end of the space age there is an interesting opinion piece in the business section of today s la times thursday april p d i thought i d post it to stir up some flame wars i mean reasoned debate let me preface it by saying that i largely agree that the space age in the romantic sense of several decades ago is over and that projects like the space station miss the point at this time reading for example what s new the weekly physics update we get here on the net it s clear that the romance of the day lies in the ever more fine grained manipulation of matter by which i include biotechnology condensed matter physics with its spinoffs in computer hardware and elsewhere and the amazing things people are doing with individual atoms these days to a large extent i think the romance some people still have with space is a matter of nostalgia i feel sure that someday we or more precisely our mind children will spread across space unless we wipe ourselves out but i think that manned space exploration is not what is exciting about what we can do now anyway let me quote some of this article but not all space age glory fades from view micheal schrage writer consultant and research associate at mit at america s space age won t have to suffer through the angst of a midlife crisis the reason is that the space age is already dead the technologies no longer define our times and the public has grown weary of the multibillion dollar celestial investments that yield minimal psychic or economic rewards space exploration has mutated from a central focuse of america s science and technology debate into a peripheral issue speace is not a meaningful part of the ongoing industrial competitiveness debate our technology infrastructure discussions or even our defense conversion policy to be sure america should continue to invest in satellite technologies for telecommunications and remote sensing cheap deep space probes would be nice too but the ideal of space as a meaningful driver of scientific and industrial innovation is now dead before the change in administrations it would have been foolish to write an obituary for the space age the bush white house aggressively supported the space program and proposed spending well over billion to build space station freedom alone even as he proposed budget cuts in other science and technology domains office of management and budget director richard darman was an outspoken public champion of big ticket space expenditures the reality that much of the civilian space program from the shuttle to the hubble telescope to the space station was poorly conceived and unimpressively implemented did not seem to matter much political inertia and a nostalgic sense of futurism not a coherent vision or cost effective sensibilities determined multibillion dollar space budgets indeed with few notable exceptions such as voyager the post apollo era is the story of the gold plated porkification of space exploration with programs and promises that delivered less for more and more while the clinton administration has kept on the highly regarded daniel goldin as administrator of the national aeronautics and space administration it seems clear that space exploration is not being positioned as either a symbolic or substantive centerpiece of america s technological prowess the space station budget has rightly been slashed space is virtually ignored when the administration champions its competitiveness agenda i wish this had happened years ago instead of starting to happen now says bruce murray a caltech professor who ran nasa s jet propulsion lab in pasadena we ve put off a lot of things we shouldn t have i would rather see a billion nasa doing well than a billion one filled with white elephants
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re orion drive in vacuum how in article qn bginn s mimi uu net james p goltz goltz mimi uu net writes background the orion spacedrive was a theoretical concept it was more than a theoretical concept it was seriously pursued by freeman dyson et al many years ago i don t know how well known this is but a high explosive orion prototype flew in the atmosphere in san diego back in or i was working at general atomic at the time but i didn t learn about the experiment until almost thirty years later when ted taylor visited us and revealed that it had been done i feel sure that someone must have film of that experiment and i d really like to see it has anyone out there seen it leigh
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help for school i am a newbie to the net and i am trying to get some information for a paper i am working on to get back into college if anyone can send me data on solar coronal holes and recurrant aurora for the past thirty years it would be a big help or if you have information on more esoteric things like telluric current surge bafflers power companies use or other effects sporatic aurora have on the earth s magnetic field i d be eternally gratefull please send anything interesting to me at marty crandall grela van vleck observatory wesleyan university middletown ct or e mail it to me at mcrandall eagle wesleyan edu thank you in advance marty
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re solar sail data in article apr news duc auburn edu snydefj eng auburn edu frank j snyder writes i am looking for any information concerning projects involving solar sails i understand that the jpl did an extensive study on the subject back in the late s but i am having trouble gathering such information are there any groups out there currently involved in such a project frank snyder auburn university snydefj eng auburn edu i know someone had long talks about solar sails early this year and late last year also about solar sailing not sure who captured it if possible i think it was one of the regulars who had most or all the data i think i started the latest round or the late last year round but the topic has been around here off and on for a year or two michael adams nsmca acad alaska edu i m not high just jacked
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russian email contacts does anyone have any russian contacts space or other or contacts in the old ussr su or eastern europe post them here so we all can talk to them and ask questions i think the cost of email is high so we would have to keep the content to specific topics and such basically if we want to save russia and such then we need to make contacts contacts are a form of info so lets get informing michael adams nsmca acad alaska edu i m not high just jacked alive in nome alaska once called russian america
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quotation was re none in article apr otago ac nz bioccnt otago ac nz writes can someone please remind me who said a well known quotation he was sitting atop a rocket awaiting liftoff and afterwards in answer to the question what he had been thinking about said approximately half a million components each has to work perfectly each supplied by the lowest bidder sounds similar to something wally schirra said bruce watson wats scicom alphacdc com bulletin item extract
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re orbital repairstation the difficulties of a high isp otv include long transfer times radiation damage from vanallen belts for both the spacecraft and otv arcjets or xenon thrusters require huge amounts of power so you have to have either nuclear power source messy dangerous and source of radiation damage or big solar arrays sensitive to radiation or heavy that make attitude control and docking a big pain if you go solar you have to replace the arrays every trip with current technology nuclear power sources are strongly restricted by international treaty refueling even for very high isp like xenon is still required and turn out to be a pain you either have to develop autonomous rendezvous or long range teleoperation to do docking or and refueling you still can t do much plane change because the deltav required is so high the air force continues to look at doing things this way though i suppose they are biding their time till the technology becomes available and the problems get solved not impossible in principle but hard to do and marginally cheaper than one shot rockets at least today just a few random thoughts on high isp otv s i designed one once steve collins
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army in space is anybody out there willing to discuss with me careers in the army that deal with space after i graduate i will have a commitment to serve in the army and i would like to spend it in a space related field i saw a post a long time ago about the air force space command which made a fleeting reference to its army counter part any more info on that would be appreciated i m looking for things like do i branch intelligence or signal or other to whom do i voice my interest in space what qualifications are necessary etc etc btw my major is computer science engineering please reply to ktj reef cis ufl edu thanks for any info whether they ever find life there or not i think jupiter should be considered an enemy planet jack handy ktj reef cis ufl edu cirop elm circa ufl edu endeavour circa ufl edu
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re orion drive in vacuum how in article apr sfu ca leigh palmer palmer sfu ca writes in article qn bginn s mimi uu net james p goltz goltz mimi uu net writes background the orion spacedrive was a theoretical concept it was more than a theoretical concept it was seriously pursued by freeman dyson et al many years ago i don t know how well known this is but a high explosive orion prototype flew in the atmosphere in san diego back in or i was working at general atomic at the time but i didn t learn about the experiment until almost thirty years later when ted taylor visited us and revealed that it had been done i feel sure that someone must have film of that experiment and i d really like to see it has anyone out there seen it leigh nope i haven t seen the film but taylor s biography the curve of binding energy contains a short section on orion and this test flight apparently it was quite impressi and got von braun very excited in real life mike williams perpetual grad student e mail mrw e virginia edu it s not just a job it s an indenture if you ever have a world of your own plan ahead don t eat it st tng
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re space debris there is a guy in nasa johnson space center that might answer your question i do not have his name right now but if you follow up i can dig that out for you c o egalon larc nasa gov claudio oliveira egalon
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end of the space age we are not at the end of the space age but only at the end of its beginning that space exploration is no longer a driver for technical innovation or a focus of american cultural attention is certainly debatable however technical developments in other quarters will always be examined for possible applications in the space area and we can look forward to many innovations that might enhance the capabilities and lower the cost of future space operations the dream is alive and well jeff bytof member technical staff institute for remote exploration
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re what if the ussr had reached the moon first this is turning into what s a moonbase good for and i ought not to post when i ve a hundred some odd posts to go but i would think that the real reason to have a moon base is economic since someone with space industry will presumeably have a much larger gnp than they would without space industry eventually they will simply be able to afford more stuff graydon
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space shuttle information wanted hello everyone i was hoping someone could help me out i m writing a program for my astronautics class for assent of the shuttle into a low orbit there are two things i d like to know first how much time elapses between launch and the pitch over second what is the cross sectional area of the shuttle srb s and ext tank thanks for any information post or e mail joel belog nether wpi wpi edu
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re army in space ktj beach cis ufl edu kerry todd johnson writes is anybody out there willing to discuss with me careers in the army that deal with space after i graduate i will have a commitment to serve in the army and i would like to spend it in a space related field i saw a post a long time ago about the air force space command which made a fleeting reference to its army counter part any more info on that would be appreciated i m looking for things like do i branch intelligence or signal or other to whom do i voice my interest in space what qualifications are necessary etc etc btw my major is computer science engineering kerry i m guessing a little at this because it s been a few years since i saw the info but you will probably want to look at air defense artillery as a specialty or possibly signals the kind of thing you re looking for is sdi type assignments but it ll be pretty prosaic stuff things like hard kill atbm missiles some of the cobra rigs that kind of thing hope that gives you some ideas on where to look though charlie prael dante shakala com shakala bbs clanzen radio network sunnyvale ca
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re nasa wraps in article apr iti org aws iti org allen w sherzer writes in article apr judy uh edu wingo cspara decnet fedex msfc nasa gov writes btw universities do the same thing they however have a wrap of to again this is over and above any overhead charge wrong allen the max overhead charge is all of the charge there is no seperately budgeted overhead in any shape size form or fashion a professor at the university of virginia told me their wrap was about the subcontracts i have let out and worked on for other universities are about the same my employer a non profit research institute does the same this is generally reffered to as the fee i don t care who told you this it is not generally true i see every single line item on a contract and i have to sign it there is no such thing as wrap at this university i also asked around here ther is no wrap at marquette university of wisconsin madison utah state weber state or embry riddle u i am not saying that it doees not happen but in every instance that i have been able to track down it does not also the president of our university who was provost at university of west virgina said that it did not happen there either and that this figure must be included in the overhead to be a legitimate charge how do i know i write proposals and have won contracts and i know to the dime what the charges are at uah for example the overhead is sounds like they are adding it to their overhead rate go ask your costing people how much fee they add to a project i did they never heard of it but suggest that like our president did that any percentage number like this is included in the overhead if you have some numbers allen then show them else quit barking i did dennis read the article to repeat an internal estimate done by the reston costing department says freedom can be built for about b a year and operated for b per year if all the money where spent on freedom since we spend about half a billion more per year it looks like roughly of the money is wasted now if you think i m making this up you can confirm it in the anonymous editorial published a few weeks ago in space news no allen you did not you merely repeated allegations made by an employee of the overhead capital of nasa nothing that reston does could not be dont better or cheaper at the other nasa centers where the work is going on kinda funny isn t it that someone who talks about a problem like this is at a place where everything is overhead this dennis is why nasa has so many problems you can t accept that anything is wrong unless you can blame it on congress oh sure you ll say nasa has problems but do you believe it remember the wp overrun you insisted it was all congresses fault when nasa management knew about the overrun for almost a year yet refused to act do you still blame congress for the overrun why did the space news artice point out that it was the congressionally demanded change that caused the problems methinks that you are being selective with the facts again by your own numbers allen at a cost of million per flight the service cost of flying shuttle to ssf is billion for four flights so how did you get your one billion number i have no idea what your trying to say here dennis allen if it takes four flights a year to resupply the station and you have a cost of million a flight then you pay billion a year you stated that your friend at reston said that with the current station they could resupply it for a billion a year if the wrap were gone this merely points out a blatent contridiction in your numbers that understandably you fail to see dennis university of alabama in huntsville sorry gang but i have a deadline for a satellite so someone else is going to have to do allen s math for him for a while i will have little chance to do so
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re army in space there is the army ballistic missile defense organization they were the precursors to sdio and still exist under that umbrella army signal corp s and dca defense comm agency oops disa they just changed names do space work that s the point of all those defense comm sats but don t worry there are lots of jobs that need ditch digging somehow you ll end up there
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re end of the space age oddly enough the smithsonian calls the lindbergh years the golden age of flight i would call it the granite years reflecting the primitive nature of it it was romantic swashbuckling daredevils those daring young men in their flying machines but in reality it sucked death was a highly likely occurence and the environment blew ever see the early navy pressure suits they were modified diving suits you were ready to star in plan from outer space radios and nav aids were a joke and engines ran on castor oil they picked and called aviators men with iron stomachs and it wasn t due to vertigo oddly enough now we are in the golden age of flight i can hop the shuttle to ny for bucks now that s golden mercury gemini and apollo were romantic but let s be honest peeing in bags having plastic bags glued to your butt everytime you needed a bowel movement living for days inside a vw bug romantic but not commercial the dc x points out a most likely new golden age an age where fat cigar smoking business men in loud polyester space suits will fill the skys with strip malls and used space ship lots hhhmmmmm maybe i ll retract that golden age bit maybe it was better in the old days of course then we ll have wally schirra telling his great grand children in my day we walked on the moon every day miles no buses you kids got it soft pat
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a flawed propulsion system space shuttle for an essay i am writing about the space shuttle and a need for a better propulsion system through research i have found that it is rather clumsy i e all the checks tests before launch the safety hazards sitting on a hydrogen bomb etc if you have any beefs about the current space shuttle program re propulsion please send me your ideas thanks a lot terry ford aa freenet carleton ca nepean ontario canada
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re orion drive in vacuum how in article apr sfu ca leigh palmer palmer sfu ca writes a high explosive orion prototype flew in the atmosphere in san diego back in or i feel sure that someone must have film of that experiment and i d really like to see it has anyone out there seen it the national air space museum has both the prototype and the film when i was there some years ago they had the prototype on display and the film continuously repeating all work is one man s work henry spencer u of toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
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re orbital repairstation in article c mtyj q well sf ca us collins well sf ca us steve collins writes the difficulties of a high isp otv include if you go solar you have to replace the arrays every trip with current technology you re assuming that go solar photovoltaic solar dynamic power turbo alternators doesn t have this problem it also has rather less air drag due to its higher efficiency which is a non trivial win for big solar plants at low altitude now you might have to replace the rest of the electronics fairly often unless you invest substantial amounts of mass in shielding nuclear power sources are strongly restricted by international treaty references such treaties have been proposed but as far as i know none of them has ever been negotiated or signed all work is one man s work henry spencer u of toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
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re dc x update henry zoo toronto edu henry spencer writes the first flight will be a low hover that will demonstrate a vertical landing there will be no payload dc x will never carry any kind exactly when will the hover test be done and will any of the tv networks carry it i really want to see that john lussmyer dragon angus mi org mystery spot bbs royal oak mi
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re orion drive in vacuum how in article c ngxq zoo toronto edu henry spencer henry zoo toronto edu writes the national air space museum has both the prototype and the film when i was there some years ago they had the prototype on display and the film continuously repeating great i ll visit the national air and space museum at the end of the month with my wife who was also working at general atomic at the time once again netnews has enriched my life leigh
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re nasa wraps in article apr judy uh edu wingo cspara decnet fedex msfc nasa gov writes i don t care who told you this it is not generally true i see every single line item on a contract and i have to sign it there is no such thing as wrap at this university dennis i have worked on or written proposals worth tens of millions of customers included government including nasa for profit and non profit companies all expected a wrap usually called a fee much of the work involved allocating and costing the work of subcontractors the subcontractors where universities for profits non profits and even some of the nasa centers for the commercialization of space all charged fees as part of the work down the street is one of the nasa commercialization centers they charge a fee now i m sure your a competent engineer dennis but you clearly lack experience in several areas your posts show that you don t understand the importance of integration in large projects you also show a lack of understanding of costing efforts as shown by your belief that it is reasonable to charge incremental costs for everything this isn t a flame jsut a statement your employer does charge a fee you may not see it but you do sounds like they are adding it to their overhead rate go ask your costing people how much fee they add to a project i did they never heard of it but suggest that like our president did that any percentage number like this is included in the overhead well there you are dennis as i said they simply include the fee in their overhead many seoparate the fee since the fee structure can change depending on the customer no allen you did not you merely repeated allegations made by an employee of the overhead capital of nasa integration dennis isn t overhead nothing that reston does could not be dont better or cheaper at the other nasa centers where the work is going on dennis reston has been the only nasa agency working to reduce costs when wp was hemoraging out a billion the centers you love so much where doing their best to cover it up and ignore the problem reston was the only place you would find people actually interested in solving the problems and building a station kinda funny isn t it that someone who talks about a problem like this is at a place where everything is overhead when you have a bit more experience dennis you will realize that integration isn t overhead it is the single most important part of a successful large scale effort why did the space news artice point out that it was the congressionally demanded change that caused the problems methinks that you are being selective with the facts again the story you refer to said that some nasa people blamed it on congress suprise suprise the fact remains that it is the centers you support so much who covered up the overheads and wouldn t address the problems until the press published the story are you saying the reston managers where wrong to get nasa to address the overruns you approve of what the centers did to cover up the overruns if it takes four flights a year to resupply the station and you have a cost of million a flight then you pay billion a year you stated that your friend at reston said that with the current station they could resupply it for a billion a year if the wrap were gone this merely points out a blatent contridiction in your numbers that understandably you fail to see you should know dennis that nasa doesn t include transport costs for resuply that comes from the shuttle budget what they where saying is that operational costs could be cut in half plus transport sorry gang but i have a deadline for a satellite so someone else is going to have to do allen s math for him for a while i will have little chance to do so i do hope you can find the time to tell us just why it was wrong of reston to ask that the problems with wp be addressed allen lady astor sir if you were my husband i would poison your coffee w churchill madam if you were my wife i would drink it days to first flight of dcx
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re clementine mission name mark prado please go just one step further how has the word clementine been associated with mining old pioneer song from the s or so goes as follows in a cavern in a canyon excavating for a mine dwelt a miner forty niner and his daughter clementine chorus oh my darling oh my darling oh my darling clementine you are lost and gone forever oh my darling clementine i ve also had it explained but not confirmed from a reliable data source that clementine is an acronym something like combined lunar elemental mapper experiment on extended non terrestrial intercept near earth personally i think that acronym was made up to fit the name if it really is an acronym wales larrison space technology investor maximus wb
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space clipper launch article to all i thought the net would find this amusing from the march aero vision the newsletter for the employees of mcdonnell douglas aerospace at huntington beach california space clippers launched successfully on monday march at noon quest aerospace education inc launched two dc y space clippers in the mall near the cafeteria the first rocket was launched by dr bill gaubatz director and ssto program manager and the second by air force captain ed spalding who with staff sgt don gisburne represents air force space command which was requested by sdio to assess the dc x for potential military operational use both rocket launches were successful the first floated to the ground between the cafeteria and building and the second landed on the roof of the cafeteria quest s space clipper is the first flying model rocket of the mcdonnell douglas dc x the nd semi scale model of the mcdonnell douglas delta clipper has an estimated maximum altitude of feet the space clippers can be used in educational settings to teach mathematics and science as well as social studies and other applications the space clipper is available either in the space clipper outfit which includes everything needed for three launches or as individual rockets for each both are available through hobby shops or by calling by the way this is not an endorsement to buy the product nor is it an advertisement to buy the product i make no claims about the product this is posted for public information only hey i found it amusing and is merely a repeat of what was included in the mdssc huntington beach newsletter wales larrison space technology investor maximus wb
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lrdpa news many of you at this point have seen a copy of the lunar resources data purchase act by now this bill also known as the back to the moon bill would authorize the u s government to purchase lunar science data from private and non profit vendors selected on the basis of competitive bidding with an aggregate cap on bid awards of million if you have a copy of the bill and can t or don t want to go through all of the legalese contained in all federal legislation don t both you have a free resource to evaluate the bill for you your local congressional office listed in the phone book is staffed by people who can forward a copy of the bill to legal experts simply ask them to do so and to consider supporting the lunar resources data purchase act if you do get feedback negative or positive from your congressional office please forward it to david anderman e yorba linda blvd apt g fullerton ca or via e mail to david anderman ofa fidonet org another resource is your local chapter of the national space society members of the chapter will be happy to work with you to evaluate and support the back to the moon bill for the address and telephone number of the nearest chapter to you please send e mail or check the latest issue of ad astra in a library near you finally if you have requested and not received information about the back to the moon bill please re send your request the database for the bill was recently corrupted and some information was lost the authors of the bill thank you for your patience maximus wb
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re talking to boeing management about ssto type stuff from a shareholder perspective i might suggest giving the management some more mumble time by asking the very leading question in two or three parts what are your long term expectations of space market what projects specifically are they funding by internal funds and at what levels and what competition do you expect in this area this last point is always worth hitting upper management with gently if you want them to think and as hard as you can if you have a good case that there really is competion
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re venus lander for venus conditions i doubt there are good prospects for a self armoring system for venus surface conditions several hundred degrees very high pressure of co possibly sulfuric and nitric acids or oxides but it is a notion to consider for outer planets rs where you might pick up ices under less extream upper atmosphere conditions buying deeper penetration a nice creative idea unlikly but worthy of thinking about
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wanted optical shaft encoders for telescope also posted in misc forsale wanted misc wanted ne wanted ny wanted nj wanted wanted optical shaft encoders quantity single ended incremental needed to encode the movements of a cassegrain telescope the telescope is in the observatory of the univ of mass at boston the project is being managed by mr george tucker a graduate student at umb please call him or email call me if you have one or two of the specified type of encoder of course due to our low funding level we are looking for a price that is sufficiently lower than that given for new encoders george tucker me sugarman cs umb edu univ home standard disclaimer boston massachusetts usa
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re atlas revisited i found it very interesting that atlas depended on pressure to maintain tank geometry leads me to the question have any of the ssto concepts explored pressurized tankage such that the launch configuration would be significantly different from the reentry one i have long been facinated by pnumatic structures as conceived and built by frei otto and others a ballon tank ssto sounds very clever
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re what if the ussr had reached the moon first in article saundrsg qucdn queensu ca graydon saundrsg qucdn queensu ca writes this is turning into what s a moonbase good for and i ought not to post when i ve a hundred some odd posts to go but i would think that the real reason to have a moon base is economic since someone with space industry will presumeably have a much larger gnp than they would without space industry eventually they will simply be able to afford more stuff if i read you right you re saying in essence that with a larger economy nations will have more discretionary funds to waste on a lunar facility that was certainly partially the case with apollo but real lunar colonies will probably require a continuing military scientific or commercial reason for being rather than just a we have the money why not approach it s conceivable that luna will have a military purpose it s possible that luna will have a commercial purpose but it s most likely that luna will only have a scientific purpose for the next several hundred years at least therefore lunar bases should be predicated on funding levels little different from those found for antarctic bases can you put a person base on the moon for million a year even if you use grad students gary gary coffman ke zv you make it gatech wa mei ke zv gary destructive testing systems we break it uunet rsiatl ke zv gary shannon way guaranteed emory kd nc ke zv gary lawrenceville ga
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re army in space last i had heard because of budget and such the air farce is the only space command left the rest missions were generally given to the air farce probably a good reason for me to transfer from the army guard to the air guard i hate walking with a pack on my back and how do you put on your application for a job as a kitchen worker that you have done a lot of kp kitchen police michael adams nsmca acad alaska edu i m not high just jacked
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re shuttle launch question in article apr stdvax abdkw stdvax david ward writes in article c jlwx h cs cmu edu etrat ttacs ttu edu pack rat writes there has been something bothering me while watching nasa select for a while well i should nt say bothering maybe wondering would be better when they are going to launch they say sorry but i forget exactly who is saying what otc to plt i think clear caution warning memory verify no unexpected errors i am wondering what an expected error might be sorry if this is a really dumb question but in pure speculation i would guess cautions based on hazardous pre launch ops would qualify something like caution srbs have just been armed also in pure speculation parity errors in memory or previously known conditions that were waivered yes that is an error but we already knew about it any problem where they decided a backup would handle it any problem in an area that was not criticality that is any problem in a system they decided they could do without i d be curious as to what the real meaning of the quote is tom
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into infinity was re doppelganger was re vulcan in qkn rinnett mojo eng umd edu sysmgr king eng umd edu writes in article apr fnalf fnal gov higgins fnalf fnal gov bill higgins beam jockey writes this was known as journey to the far side of the sun in the united states and as doppelganger in the u k later they went on to do more live action sf series ufo and space the astronomy was lousy but the lifting body spacecraft vtol airliners and mighty portugese launch complex were wonderful to look at exactly some of the space effects remain first rate even today they recycled a lot of models and theme music for ufo some of the concepts even showed up in space later on the andersons tried to shed their reputation as creators of some of the worst pseudo scientific shows in tv history by flying into infinity this was a one off thing done as part of bbc s educational sf series the day after tomorrow the anderson episode dealt with a spaceship capable of reaching the speed of light lightship altares the four man crew eventually journeyed into a black hole and ended up on the far side of the galaxy i think i saw this as a year old back in and liked it very much but then again i was a fan of space so i guess i was easily satisfied in those days does anyone know if into infinity has been released on video i have some space shows on vhs and know that thunderbirds etc also are available in england marcu software engineering that s like military intelligence isn t it sysmgr cadlab eng umd edu
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re space debris there is a guy in nasa johnson space center that might answer your question i do not have his name right now but if you follow up i can dig that out for you keesler loftus potter stansbery kubriek
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orion test film is the film from the putt putt test vehicle which used conventional explosives as a proof of concept test or another one c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c nathan f wallace c c reality is c c e mail wallacen cs colostate edu c c ancient alphaean proverb c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c c
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re japanese moon landing temporary orbit in article pgf srl cacs usl edu pgf srl cacs usl edu phil g fraering writes rls uihepa hep uiuc edu ray swartz oh that guy again writes the gravity maneuvering that was used was to exploit fuzzy regions these are described by the inventor as exploiting the second order perturbations in a three body system the probe was launched into this region for the earth moon sun system where the perturbations affected it in such a way as to allow it to go into lunar orbit without large expenditures of fuel to slow down the idea is that natural objects sometimes get captured without expending fuel we ll just find the trajectory that makes it possible the originator of the technique said that nasa wasn t interested but that japan was because their probe was small and couldn t hold a lot of fuel for deceleration i should probably re post this with another title so that the guys on the other thread would see that this is a practical use of temporary orbits another possible temporary orbit phil fraering seems like every day we find out all sorts of stuff pgf srl cacs usl edu like how the ancient mayans had televison repo man if you are really interested in these orbits and how they are obtained you should try and find the following paper hiroshi yamakawa jun ichiro kawaguchi nobuaki ishii and hiroki matsuo a numerical study of gravitational capture orbit in the earth moon system aas aas aiaa spaceflight mechanics meeting colorado springs colorado the references included in this paper are quite interesting also and include several that are specific to the hiten mission itself steven davis daviss sweetpea jsc nasa gov o o db mcdonnell douglas i don t represent vv space systems company anybody but myself houston division
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re shuttle launch question from article c owcb n p world std com by tombaker world std com tom a baker in article c jlwx h cs cmu edu etrat ttacs ttu edu pack rat writes clear caution warning memory verify no unexpected errors i am wondering what an expected error might be sorry if this is a really dumb question but parity errors in memory or previously known conditions that were waivered yes that is an error but we already knew about it i d be curious as to what the real meaning of the quote is tom my understanding is that the expected errors are basically known bugs in the warning system software things are checked that don t have the right values in yet because they aren t set till after launch and suchlike rather than fix the code and possibly introduce new bugs they just tell the crew ok if you see a warning no before liftoff ignore it jonathan
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re nasp i have before me a pertinent report from the united states general accounting office national aero space plane restructuring future research and development efforts december report number gao nsiad in the back it lists the following related reports nasp key issues facing the program mar gao t nsiad aerospace plane technology r d efforts in japan and australia oct gao nsiad aerospace plane technology r d efforts in europe july gao nsiad aerospace technology technical data and information on foreign test facilities jun gao nsiad fs investment in foreign aerospace vehicle research and technological development efforts aug gao t nsiad nasp a technology development and demonstration program to build the x apr gao nsiad on the inside back cover under ordering information it says the first copy of each gao report is free orders may also be placed by calling dani dani eder meridian investment company w h rt box athens al location deg n deg w m alt
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dspse was why clementine the sdio has contracted with the nrl naval research laboratory to fly the clementine mission btw we call it dspse deep space project science experiment the nrl is building the spacecraft designing the detailed mission and doing the integration and operations with help from jpl goddard prob some folks i have left out don t be mad i am on the tamp trajectory analysis mission planning team and am responsable for the iv v of the traj that goddard csc are designing as for why sdio is doing it some of the reasons are the safety constraints are too tight to try to run the lidar in leo in leo we don t get any new radiation data on the sensors we will get that data on our passages through the van allen sp belts since we are going out there why not piggy back some general science the intercept problem is a lot easied over long distances and long times i am sure there are some things i have forgotten and some i haven t been told but those are the reasons we all talk about jim blackshear jib bonnie jsc nasa gov
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re comet in temporary orbit around jupiter can these questions be answered for a previous instance such as the gehrels that was mentioned in an earlier posting orbital elements of comet vii from dance files p au e i cap omega w epoch thanks for the information i assume p is the semi major axis and e the eccentricity the peri helion and aphelion are then given by p e and p e i e about and au respectively for jupiter they are and au if was after the temporary capture this means that the comet ended up in an orbit that comes no closer than au to jupiter s which i take to be a rough indication of how far from jupiter it could get under jupiter s influence also perihelions of gehrels were april jupiter radii august jupiter radii where jupiter radius km mi au so the figure seems unlikely to actually be anything but a perijove is that the case for the figure as well mark brader softquad inc toronto remember the golgafrinchans utzoo sq msb msb sq com pete granger this article is in the public domain
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re into infinity was re doppelganger was re vulcan in article apr abo fi mlindroos finabo abo fi marcus lindroos inf writes later on the andersons tried to shed their reputation as creators of some of the worst pseudo scientific shows in tv history by flying into infinity this was a one off thing done as part of bbc s educational sf series the day after tomorrow the anderson episode dealt with a spaceship capable of reaching the speed of light lightship altares the four man crew eventually journeyed into a black hole and ended up on the far side of the galaxy i think i saw this as a year old back in and liked it very much but then again i was a fan of space so i guess i was easily satisfied in those days wow i was beginning to think that i had made that up i remember that movie it was about hours long i don t think they ended up anywhere in the known universe i remember they got a message halfway out to proxima centauri that earth transmitted a day after they launched timed to catch up with them at the halfway point i thought it was neat i think i was all of at the time does anyone know if into infinity has been released on video i have some space shows on vhs and know that thunderbirds etc also are available in england space has just come out with episodes released in american stores i will look for the into infinity show i never did know that was the name of it i thought the show was called the day after tomorrow and that was it if you blow fire against the wind take care to not get the smoke in your eyes big growly dragon monster bafta cats ucsc edu shari brooks brooks anarchy arc nasa gov the above opinions are solely my own
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why not give billion to first year long moon residents with the continuin talk about the end of the space age and complaints by government over the large cost why not try something i read about that might just work announce that a reward of billion would go to the first corporation who successfully keeps at least person alive on the moon for a year then you d see some of the inexpensive but not popular technologies begin to be developed there d be a different kind of space race then gene theporch raider net gene wright theporch raider net the macinteresteds of nashville
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navstar positions i ve just read richard langley s latest navstar gps constellation status it states that the latest satellite was placed in orbit plane position c there is already one satellite in that position i know that it s almost ten years since that satellite was launched but it s still in operation so why not use it until it goes off why not instead place the new satellite at b since that position is empty and by this measure have an almost complete gps constellation out of thomas ericsson telecom stockholm sweden thomas enblom just another employee
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buzz aldrin s race into space has anyone heard of or played buzz aldrin s race into space does anyone know when it is expected to be released thanx tom
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diaspar virtual reality network announcement posted to the internet by wmiler nyx cs du edu david the lunar tele operation model one ltm by david h mitchell march introduction in order to increase public interest in space based and lunar operations a real miniature lunar like environment is being constructed on which to test tele operated models these models are remotely controlled by individuals located world wide using their personal computers for edutainment purposes not only does this provide a test bed for simple tele operation and tele presence activities but it also provides for the sharing of information on methods of operating in space including but not limited to layout of a lunar colony tele operating machines for work and play disseminating educational information providing contests and awards for creativity and achievement and provides a new way for students worldwide to participate in twenty first century remote learning methods because of the nature of the ltm project people of all ages interests and skills can contribute scenery and murals models and structures interfacing and electronics software and graphics in operation ltm is an evolving playground and laboratory that can be used by children students and professionals worldwide using a personal computer at home or a terminal at a participating institution a user is able to tele operate real models at the ltm base for experimental or recreational purposes because a real facility exists ample opportunity is provided for media coverage of the construction of the lunar model its operation and new features to be added as suggested by the users themselves this has broad inherent interest for a wide range of groups tele operations and virtual reality research radio control model railroad and ham radio operation astronomy and space planetariums and science centers art and theater bbs and online network users software and game developers manufacturers and retailers of model rockets cars and trains children the child in all of us ltm overall design a room feet by feet contains the base lunar layout the walls are used for murals of distant moon mountains star fields and a view of the earth the floor is the simulated lunar surface a global call for contributions is hereby made for material for the lunar surface and for the design and creation of scale models of lunar colony elements scenery and machine lets the ltm initial design has tele operated machinelets an ssto scale model which will be able to lift off hover and land a bulldozerlet which will be able to move about in a quarry area and a moon train which will traverse most of the simulated lunar surface each machinelet has a small tv camera utilizing a ccd tv chip mounted on it a personal computer digitizes the image including reducing picture content and doing data compression to allow for minimal images to be sent to the operator for control purposes and also return control signals the first machinelet to be set up will be the moon train since model trains with tv cameras built in are almost off the shelf items and control electronics for starting and stopping a train are minimal the user will receive an image once every to seconds depending on the speed of their data link to ltm next an ssto scale model with a ccd tv chip will be suspended from a servo motor operated wire frame mounted on the ceiling allowing for the ssto to be controlled by the operator to take off hover over the entire lunar landscape and land finally some tank models will be modified to be ccd tv chip equipped bulldozerlets the entire initial ltm will allow remote operators worldwide to receive minimal images while actually operating models for landing and takeoff traveling and doing work the entire system is based on commercially available items and parts that can be easily obtained except for the interface electronics which is well within the capability of many advanced ham radio operator and computer hardware software developers by taking a graphically oriented communications program dmodem and adding a tele operations screen and controls the necessary user interface can be provided in under man hours plan of action the diaspar virtual reality network has agreed to sponsor this project by providing a host computer network and internet access to that network diaspar is providing the foot by foot facility for actual construction of the lunar model diaspar has in stock the electronic tanks that can be modified and one ccd tv chip diaspar also agrees to provide rail stock for the lunar train model diaspar will make available the dmodem graphical communications package and modify it for control of the machines lets an initial ground breaking with miniature shovels will be performed for a live photo session and news conference on april the initial models will be put in place a time lapse record will be started for historical purposes it is not expected that this event will be completely serious or solemn the lunar colony will be declared open for additional building operations and experiments a photographer will be present and the photographs taken will be converted to gif images for distribution world wide to major online networks and bbs s a press release will be issued calling for contributions of ideas time talent materials and scale models for the simulated lunar colony a contest for new designs and techniques for working on the moon will then be announced universities will be invited to participate the goal being to find instructors who wish to have class participation in various aspects of the lunar colony model field trips to ltm can be arranged and at that time the results of the class work will be added to the model contributors will then be able to tele operate any contributed machine lets once they return to their campus a monthly ltm newsletter will be issued both electronically online and via conventional means to the media any major new tele operated equipment addition will be marked with an invitation to the television news media having a large real model space colony will be a very attractive photo opportunity for the television community especially since the action will be controlled by people all over the world science fiction writers will be invited to issue challenges to engineering and human factors students at universities to build and operate the tele operated equipment to perform lunar tasks using counter weight and pulley systems gravity may be simulated to some extent to try various traction challenges the long term goal is creating world wide interest education experimentation and remote operation of a lunar colony ltm has the potential of being a long term global edutainment method for space activities and may be the generic example of how to teach and explore in many other subject areas not limited to space edutainment all of this facilitates the kind of spirit which can lead to a generation of people who are ready for the leap to the stars conclusion edutainment is the blending of education and entertainment anyone who has ever enjoyed seeing miniatures will probably see the potential impact of a globally available layout for recreation education and experimentation purposes by creating a tele operated model lunar colony we not only create world wide publicity but also a method of trying new ideas that require real not virtual skills and open a new method for putting people s minds in space moonlighters illuminating the path of knowledge about space and lunar development the following people are already engaged in various parts of this work david rob dash hyson jzer vril wyatt the dark one tiggertoo the mad hatter sir robin jogden come join the discussion any friday night from to midnight pst in diaspar virtual reality network ideas welcome internet telnet to or diaspar com voice bd bd email inquiries to ltm project leader jzer hydra unm edu or directly to jzer on diaspar
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re orion drive in vacuum how leigh palmer palmer sfu ca writes i feel sure that someone must have film of that experiment and i d really like to see it has anyone out there seen it i ve seen a film of it my memory may be faulty but as i remember it the vehicle was slightly over a meter long with a thick baseplate cm in diameter i think the narrative said it was propelled by dynamite sticks there were four detonations within about s the second coming after about m of flight in max altitude seemed to be on the order of m but that is hard to judge urban fredriksson urf icl se
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re comet in temporary orbit around jupiter in article apr sq sq com msb sq sq com mark brader writes can these questions be answered for a previous instance such as the gehrels that was mentioned in an earlier posting orbital elements of comet vii from dance files p au e i cap omega w epoch also perihelions of gehrels were april jupiter radii august jupiter radii where jupiter radius km mi au so the figure seems unlikely to actually be anything but a perijove is that the case for the figure as well sorry perijoves i m not used to talking this language john garland jgarland kean ucs mun ca
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re orbital repairstation in article c hcbo joy zoo toronto edu henry zoo toronto edu henry spencer writes the biggest problem with this is that all orbits are not alike it can actually be more expensive to reach a satellite from another orbit than from the ground but with cheaper fuel from space based sources it will be cheaper to reach more orbits than from the ground also remember that the presence of a repair supply facility adds value to the space around it if you can put your satellite in an orbit where it can be reached by a ready source of supply you can make it cheaper and gain benefit from economies of scale allen lady astor sir if you were my husband i would poison your coffee w churchill madam if you were my wife i would drink it days to first flight of dcx
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re nasa wraps in article apr iti org aws iti org allen w sherzer writes in article apr judy uh edu wingo cspara decnet fedex msfc nasa gov writes i don t care who told you this it is not generally true i see every single line item on a contract and i have to sign it there is no such thing as wrap at this university dennis i have worked on or written proposals worth tens of millions of customers included government including nasa for profit and non profit companies all expected a wrap usually called a fee much of the work involved allocating and costing the work of subcontractors the subcontractors where universities for profits non profits and even some of the nasa centers for the commercialization of space all charged fees as part of the work down the street is one of the nasa commercialization centers they charge a fee you totally forgot the original post that you posted allen in that post you stated that the wrap was on top of and in addition to any overhead geez in this post you finally admit that this is not true now i m sure your a competent engineer dennis but you clearly lack experience in several areas your posts show that you don t understand the importance of integration in large projects you also show a lack of understanding of costing efforts as shown by your belief that it is reasonable to charge incremental costs for everything this isn t a flame jsut a statement come your little ol buns down here and you will find out who is doing what and who is working on integration this is simply an ad hominum attack and you know it your employer does charge a fee you may not see it but you do of course there is a fee it is for administration geez allen any organization has costs but there is a heck of a difference in legitimate costs such as libraries and other things that must be there to support a program and wrap as you originally stated it you stated that wrap was on top of all of the overhead which a couple of sentences down you say is not true which is it allen sounds like they are adding it to their overhead rate go ask your costing people how much fee they add to a project i did they never heard of it but suggest that like our president did that any percentage number like this is included in the overhead well there you are dennis as i said they simply include the fee in their overhead many seoparate the fee since the fee structure can change depending on the customer as you have posted on this subject allen you state that wrap is over and above overhead and is a seperate charge you admit here that this is wrong nasa has a line item budget every year i have seen it allen get some numbers from that detailed nasa budget and dig out the wrap numbers and then howl to high heaven about it until you do that you are barking in the wind no allen you did not you merely repeated allegations made by an employee of the overhead capital of nasa integration dennis isn t overhead nothing that reston does could not be dont better or cheaper at the other nasa centers where the work is going on integration could be done better at the centers apollo integration was done here at msfc and that did not turn out so bad the philosophy of reston is totally wrong allen there you have a bunch of people who are completely removed from the work that they are trying to oversee there is no way that will ever work it has never worked in any large scale project that it was ever tried on could you imagine a reston like set up for apollo dennis reston has been the only nasa agency working to reduce costs when wp was hemoraging out a billion the centers you love so much where doing their best to cover it up and ignore the problem reston was the only place you would find people actually interested in solving the problems and building a station oh you are full of it allen on this one i agree that jsc screwed up big they should be responsible for that screw up and the people that caused it replaced to make a stupid statement like that just shows how deep your bias goes come to msfc for a couple of weeks and you will find out just how wrong you really are maybe not people like you believe exactly what they want to believe no matter what the facts are contrary to it kinda funny isn t it that someone who talks about a problem like this is at a place where everything is overhead when you have a bit more experience dennis you will realize that integration isn t overhead it is the single most important part of a successful large scale effort i agree that integration is the single most important part of a successful large scale effort what i completly disagree with is seperating that integration function from the people that are doing the work it is called leadership allen that is what made apollo work final responsibility for the success of apollo was held by less than people that is leadership and responsibility there is neither when you have any organization set up as reston is you could take the same people and move them to jsc or msfc and they could do a much better job why did it take a year for reston to finally say something about the problem if they were on site and part of the process then the problem would have never gotten out of hand in the first place there is one heck of a lot i do not know allen but one thing i do know is that for a project to be successful you must have leadership i remember all of the turn over at reston that kept ssf program in shambles for years do you it is lack of responsibility and leadership that is the programs problem lack of leadership from the white house congress and at reston nasa is only a symptom of a greater national problem you are so narrowly focused in your efforts that you do not see this why did the space news artice point out that it was the congressionally demanded change that caused the problems methinks that you are being selective with the facts again the story you refer to said that some nasa people blamed it on congress suprise suprise the fact remains that it is the centers you support so much who covered up the overheads and wouldn t address the problems until the press published the story are you saying the reston managers where wrong to get nasa to address the overruns you approve of what the centers did to cover up the overruns no i am saying that if they were located at jsc it never would have happened in the first place if it takes four flights a year to resupply the station and you have a cost of million a flight then you pay billion a year you stated that your friend at reston said that with the current station they could resupply it for a billion a year if the wrap were gone this merely points out a blatent contridiction in your numbers that understandably you fail to see you should know dennis that nasa doesn t include transport costs for resuply that comes from the shuttle budget what they where saying is that operational costs could be cut in half plus transport sorry gang but i have a deadline for a satellite so someone else is going to have to do allen s math for him for a while i will have little chance to do so i do hope you can find the time to tell us just why it was wrong of reston to ask that the problems with wp be addressed i have the time to reitereate one more timet that if the leadership that is at reston was on site at jsc the problem never would have happened totally ignoring the lack of leadership of congress this many headed hydra that has grown up at nasa is the true problem of the agency and to try to change the question to suit you and your bias is only indicative of your position dennis university of alabama in huntsville
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re biosphere ii in q kia gg access digex net pat writes in article almaden ibm com nicho vnet ibm com writes in q ud ji access digex net pat writes why is everyone being so critical of b because it s bogus science promoted as real science it seems to me that it s sorta a large engineering project more then a science project bingo b is not bench science but rather a large scale attempt to re create a series of micro ecologies what s so eveil about this nothing evil at all there s no actual harm in what they re doing only how they represent it sig files are like strings every yo yo s got one greg nicholls nicho vnet ibm com business or nicho olympus demon co uk private
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re biosphere ii in q ku av access digex net pat writes the work is privately funded the data belongs to sbv i don t see either george or fred scoriating ibm research division for not releasing data we publish plenty kiddo you just have to look sig files are like strings every yo yo s got one greg nicholls nicho vnet ibm com business or nicho olympus demon co uk private
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re sixty two thousand was re how many read sci space in article apr fnalf fnal gov higgins fnalf fnal gov bill higgins beam jockey writes reid alas gives us no measure of the power influence of readers sorry mark i think i can largely as a result of efforts by people reading this group writing letters and making phone calls the following has happened nasa reprogrammed funds to keep nasp alive in efforts to kill dc x and the ssrt progam where twice twarted feb and june of last year gouldin kept his job in spite of heavy lobbying against him this may not be what mark was thinking of but it shows that the readers of sci space do have power and influence allen lady astor sir if you were my husband i would poison your coffee w churchill madam if you were my wife i would drink it days to first flight of dcx
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re astronomy program in article galaxy ucr edu datadec ucrengr ucr edu kevin marcus writes are there any public domain or shareware astronomy programs which will map out the sky at any given time and allow you to locate planets nebulae and so forth if so is there any ftp site where i can get one there are several star map programs available your job is to choose that you like try anonymous ftp from ftp funet fi pub astro pc stars pc solar mac amiga atari regards veikko
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re what if the ussr had reached the moon first in article apr ke zv uucp gary ke zv uucp gary coffman writes in article saundrsg qucdn queensu ca graydon saundrsg qucdn queensu ca writes this is turning into what s a moonbase good for and i ought not to post when i ve a hundred some odd posts to go but i would think that the real reason to have a moon base is economic since someone with space industry will presumeably have a much larger gnp than they would without space industry eventually they will simply be able to afford more stuff if i read you right you re saying in essence that with a larger economy nations will have more discretionary funds to waste on a lunar facility that was certainly partially the case with apollo but real lunar colonies will probably require a continuing military scientific or commercial reason for being rather than just a we have the money why not approach ah but the whole point is that money spent on a lunar base is not wasted on the moon it s not like they d be using r bills to fuel their moon dozers the money to fund a lunar base would be spent in the country to which the base belonged it s a way of funding high tech research just like darpa was a good excuse to fund various fields of research under the pretense that it was crucial to the defense of the country or like esprit is a good excuse for the ec to fund research under the pretense that it s good for pan european cooperation now maybe you think that government funded research is a waste of money in fact i m pretty sure you do but it does count as investment spending which does boost the economy and just look at the size of that multiplier nick haines nickh cmu edu
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re shuttle launch question in article apr head cfa harvard edu jcm head cfa harvard edu jonathan mcdowell writes my understanding is that the expected errors are basically known bugs in the warning system software things are checked that don t have the right values in yet because they aren t set till after launch and suchlike rather than fix the code and possibly introduce new bugs they just tell the crew ok if you see a warning no before liftoff ignore it good grief and i thought the shuttle software was known for being well engineered if this is actually the case every member of the programming team should be taken out and shot given that i ve heard the shuttle software rated as level in maturity i strongly doubt that this is the case nick haines nickh cmu edu
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re why not give billion to first year long moon residents gene wright gene theporch raider net wrote announce that a reward of billion would go to the first corporation who successfully keeps at least person alive on the moon for a year then you d see some of the inexpensive but not popular technologies begin to be developed there d be a different kind of space race then i m an advocate of this idea for funding space station work and i throw around the billion figure for that reward i suggest that you increase the lunar reward to about billion this would encourage private industry to invest in space which should be one of nasa s primary goals ken jenks nasa jsc gm space shuttle program office kjenks gothamcity jsc nasa gov better faster cheaper daniel s goldin nasa administrator
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re orion drive in vacuum how in article apr sfu ca leigh palmer palmer sfu ca writes in article c ngxq zoo toronto edu henry spencer henry zoo toronto edu writes the national air space museum has both the prototype and the film when i was there some years ago they had the prototype on display and the film continuously repeating great i ll visit the national air and space museum at the end of the month with my wife who was also working at general atomic at the time once again netnews has enriched my life sorry to put a damper on your plans but i was there three weeks ago and it wasn t there not that i would have known to look for it of course but i combed the space exhibits pretty thoroughly and something like that would have caught my attention instantly this is news this is your peter scott nasa jpl caltech brain on news any questions pjs euclid jpl nasa gov
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vast bandwidth over runs on nasa thread was re nasa wraps in article apr judy uh edu dennis writes about a zillion lines in response to article apr iti org in which allen wrote a zillion lines in response to article apr judy uh edu in which dennis wrote another zillion lines in response to allen hey can it you guys take it to email or talk politics space or alt flame or alt music pop will eat itself the poppies are on patrol or anywhere but this is sci space this thread lost all scientific content many moons ago nick haines nickh cmu edu
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re orion drive in vacuum how in article quh innf elroy jpl nasa gov pjs euclid jpl nasa gov writes the national air space museum has both the prototype and the film when i was there some years ago they had the prototype on display great i ll visit the national air and space museum at the end of the month sorry to put a damper on your plans but i was there three weeks ago and it wasn t there not that i would have known to look for it of course but i combed the space exhibits pretty thoroughly and something like that would have caught my attention instantly it wasn t especially prominent as i recall however quite possibly it s no longer on display nasm like most museums has much more stuff than it can display at once and does rotate the displays occasionally all work is one man s work henry spencer u of toronto zoology kipling henry zoo toronto edu utzoo henry
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conference on manned lunar exploration may crystal city aw st had a brief blurb on a manned lunar exploration confernce may th at crystal city virginia under the auspices of aiaa does anyone know more about this how much to attend anyone want to go pat
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