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re estimating wiretap costs benefits in article rlglendec t en netcom com rlglende netcom com robert lewis glendenning writes first what the fuck is nasa doing wasting my tax dollars doing policy papers on stuff far outside of their purvew mission i don t think they re paying for it do us a favor resign rather than right this paper for nasa go do useful work for the society useful i find his estimate of the annual value to law enforcement of million quite useful if rough e g wiretaps may be preferentially used on otherwise hard to catch criminals resulting in an underestimate this comes to twenty cents a head over the u s population i would find some rigorous numbers on this quite useful it would make for nice slogans your privacy is worth or whatever it turns out to be lew glendenning rlglende netcom com pgp key by finger or e mail eli ebrandt jarthur claremont edu
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re once tapped your code is no good any more in article c so hxv demon co uk graham toal gtoal gtoal com writes i am completely baffled by why dorothy denning has chosen to throw away her academic respectability like this she hasn t dorothy denning has spent many years earning the professional respect of her colleagues and something won in this manner is not easily lost her support of the clipper no matter how unpopular that position may be serves far more to enhance the clipper s respectability than to diminish her own jeff makey department of tautological pleonasms and superfluous redundancies department disclaimer all opinions are strictly those of the author domain makey visicom com uucp nosc visicom makey
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will feds troll for mutilated law enforcement blocks from denning the skipjack encryption algorithm f an bit family key that is common to all chips n a bit serial number u an bit secret key that unlocks all messages encrypted with the chip e m k the encrypted message stream and e e k u n f a law enforcement block where the session key is k and is transmitted encrypted in the unit key u which along with the serial number n is encrypted in the family key f presumably the protocol can be recovered if by nothing else differential analysis postulate if you will a chip or logic sitting between the clipper chip and its communications channel the function of this spoof chip is twofold transmit channel the spoof chip xors the bit encrypted serial number with a secondary keying variable this renders the serial number unrecoverable with just the family key receive channel the spoof chip xors the incoming encrypted serial number with a secondary keying variable assuming integrity of the law enforcement block is necessary for local operation checksums sequence control etc this has the net result of hiding the serial number it is probable theere is a known plaintext pattern used as a filler in the block containing n bits as used in generating u u u correctness of the law enforcement block can be determined with only the family key f whereas no one has proposed federal agencies be denied f and because they could recover it themselves the correctness of the serial number can be tested by examining the pad bits of n in e n f the one could selectively alter the law enforcement block as above but the mutilation could be detected a better approach would be to mutilate the entire law enforcement block if it were done with a group encryption scheme such as des or presumably skipjack the chances the law enforcement block can be recovered are lessened what do you want to bet the transmission protocol can be recognized and the serial numbers decrypted in a target search when digital transmission becomes widely available would there be a requirement that clipper protocol transmissions be refused when containing mutilated law enforcement blocks one way to avoid notice would be to spoof protocol information of the block containing m as well as spoofing the law enforcement block the goal is to use a secure communications scheme without redress to detection or key k interception contained encrypted within the law enforcement block the data stream is returned to its original state for use by the clipper chip or system if required for proper operation it is somewhat improbable that the entire protocol will be contained within the clipper chip yet likely that sequence of events will be tested for requiring a valid law enforcement block to be received before accepting and decrypting e m k the spoof chip could be implemented anywhere in the protocols including on the resulting serial data stream existing clipper products could be subborned after all they are high security encryption systems right super encipherment encryption could allow the chip to be used without redress to detection of the use of the chip or disclosure of the serial number security must be adequate to deny the serial number which should not be recoverable by other means one can see the use of cut outs for procurring clipper phones or once the number of units is high enough stealing them it would be a mistake on the part of authority but nice from a point of privacy if the serial number n were not associated with a particular clipper chip or lot of chips through the manufacturing and distribution process hopefully the list of known missing or stolen clipper serial numbers n encrypted with f and the protocols are not sufficient plaintext to attact the super encrypted clipper stream this could be further made difficult by altering the temporal and or spatial relationship of the clipper stream to that of the super encrypted stream detection of an encrypted stream could tip off the use of the aforementioned scheme if you could capture valid law enforcement blocks not your own and use them in a codebook sustitution with your own where they point to a valid law enforcement block stored in a library utilizing a session key matching the remainder of the transmission you could simply out and out lie yet deliver to monitoring and or hostile forces a seemingly valid law enforcement block these captured law enforcement blocks would be used as authenticators such as in a manually keyed encryption system fending this off would require escalation in examining the protocols and blocks in the transmission the m code stream might be independently attacked based on knowledge of clipper chip protocols as revealed plaintext this could be invalidated by changing the temporal and or spatial relationship of the clipper m stream and the actual transmitted stream under the control of a secure key generator synchronized between endpoints the useful life time of captured law enforcement blocks might be limited based on hostile forces using them as targets following transmission interception you would need a large number of them but hey there s supposed to be millions of these things right adding time stamps to the encrypted law enforcement block is probably impractical who wants an encryption chip with a real time clock the entire idea of the law enforcement block can be invalidated
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re will feds troll for mutilated law enforcement blocks the m code stream might be independently attacked based on knowledge of clipper chip protocols as revealed plaintext this could be invalidated by changing the temporal and or spatial relationship of the clipper m stream and the actual transmitted stream under the control of a secure key generator synchronized between endpoints the useful life time of captured law enforcement blocks might be limited based on hostile forces using them as targets following transmission interception you would need a large number of them but hey there s supposed to be millions of these things right adding time stamps to the encrypted law enforcement block is probably impractical who wants an encryption chip with a real time clock the entire idea of the law enforcement block can be invalidated i just had the thought that you could capture your own law enforcement blocks for session keys k that you will not use in actual transmissions as the session key authenticators the proviso that you don t mind your own serial number being discovered d denning just sent out further information of a new version of the clipper chip if a hash function were to be embedded in a clipper m transmission block reflecting the law enforcement block it better not fall on bit block boundaries if it were a recognizeable datum you could lie with it too i like the randomizer inclusion in the myk i remember reading that intel had an approved random noise source on silicon hence the ability to put it inside you ever think that mykotronx sounds like one of those made up names of companies used as fronts for intelligence organizations
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political point of attack clipper infrastructure my earlier argument that clipper will encourage state and local cops to commit criminal acts is largely moot now that we ve learned that the fbi will perform the actual tap it will encourage the fbi to commit even more criminal acts but that s not the point here but this gives another avenue of attack on the clipper proposal when the eff aclu cpsr foia requests are made they should ask for details on the bureaucratic and equipment infrastructure that is proposed or even already budgeted for the fbi to service tapping requests for now and the projected future from these figures estimate the number of clipper tap requests the fbi is expecting publish this figure compare it on a per capita basis with the amount of tapping now known or suspected also estimate how expensive it would be for the fbi to install more clipper tapping stations and how rapidly they could be built and installed ie get the plus or minus epsilon for the near future might be a mite disturbing for j q public to know these things and despite all the technical details btw thanks to those who ve been providing them we still don t know how the tapping requests will be transmitted and authenticated though it isn t too hard to guess a good scheme how the results will be securely transmitted fed ex the audio tapes how privacy will be re established when an investigation is complete dwight tuinstra best tuinstra sandman ece clarkson edu tolerable tuinstrd craft camp clarkson edu homo sapiens planetary cancer news at six
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re clipper will corrupt cops was wh proposal from police point of view in article apr news clarkson edu tuinstra signal ece clarkson edu soe dwight tuinstra writes the clear implication is that there are legal authorizations other than a court order just how leaky are these i don t have the wiretap statute handy but here s what the law says on pen registers this is all from title of the u s code note how vague s a b is i haven t had a chance to check out u s c yet usc s pen registers as of s general prohibition on pen register and trap and trace device use exception a in general except as provided in this section no person may install or use a pen register or a trap and trace device without first obtaining a court order under section of this title or under the foreign intelligence surveillance act of u s c et seq s emergency pen register and trap and trace device installation a notwithstanding any other provision of this chapter any investigative or law enforcement officer specially designated by the attorney general the deputy attorney general the associate attorney general any assistant attorney general any acting assistant attorney general or any deputy assistant attorney general or by the principal prosecuting attorney of any state or subdivision thereof acting pursuant to a statute of that state who reasonably determines that an emergency situation exists that involves a immediate danger of death or serious bodily injury to any person or b conspiratorial activities characteristic of organized crime that requires the installation and use of a pen register or a trap and trace device before an order authorizing such installation and use can with due diligence be obtained and there are grounds upon which an order could be entered under this chapter to authorize such installation and use may have installed and use a pen register or trap and trace device if within forty eight hours after the installation has occurred or begins to occur an order approving the installation or use is issued in accordance with section of this title b in the absence of an authorizing order such use shall immediately terminate when the information sought is obtained when the application for the order is denied or when forty eight hours have lapsed since the installation of the pen register or trap and trace device whichever is earlier c the knowing installation or use by any investigative or law enforcement officer of a pen register or trap and trace device pursuant to subsection a without application for the authorizing order within forty eight hours of the installation shall constitute a violation of this chapter
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re clipper considered harmful in article r us oeh agate berkeley edu shirriff sprite berkeley edu ken shirriff writes imagine archiving all pay phone conversations so if someone turns out to be a drug dealer you can listen to all their past drug deals and archive calls to from suspected mafia members potential terrorists radicals etc imagine the convenience for the police of being able to get a warrant now and listening to all the calls the world trade center bombers made in the past year since archiving would be such a powerful tool and so easy to do why wouldn t it happen apart from the storage and search requirements because the evidence is inadmissible wiretaps require a warrant and as soon as one such case comes to light all previous cases are likely to be discovered and thrown out there was an article in the ny times a few months ago about how many convictions in the state might be invalidated because they relied on pen registers and the court of appeals ruled that pen registers were equivalent to wiretaps and hence required warrants under new york law
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re i have seen the lobby and it is us i agree that notifying your elected officials of your feelings on this and any other for that matter issue is the way to go and by the way the phone s on the list posted the other day were all in washington d c for most of you your elected officials will also maintain a local office in your area code when i manage my elected officials i use their local office s exclusively and my fax modem and windows print capture software are my tool of choice they see my words as i have stated them rather than a summary as they would if i called in voice and left a comment with the office staff edward a bertsch eab msc edu minnesota supercomputer center inc operations user services washington avenue south work minneapolis minnesota voice mail disclaimer my opinions not msci s
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re freely distributable public key cryptography c code where thus said ee jks brunel ac uk jonathan k saville d wigglesworth smhanaes gpu utcc utoronto ca wrote do you know of any freely distributable c or c code for public key cryptography such as rsa i ve tried various archie searches to no avail have you heard of pgp i assume from your post that you have not pgp is a freeware rsa encryption program which includes digital signatures and comprehensive key management facilities most sites also keep the source code a growing number of people are using this excellent software to encrypt to a very high standard their email and data get it before clinton outlaws it two of the many sites are rsa com pub pgp soda berkeley edu pub cypherpunks pgp pgp is not available on the archive site rsa com if it were it would be highly amusing since rsa com actually public key partners but it s the same entity is the organization holding the patents which they claim are violated if you actually make use or sell pgp i believe those patents also apply in canada but i m not a patent lawyer or anything there is no such thing as freely redistributable code for rsa which can be used in north america without legal entanglements you may wish to consider rsaref however which is available from the ftp site rsa com in rsaref but probably doesn t meet your definition of freely redistributable it s readily available in source in c and does rsa md etc and comes with a license allowing noncommercial use like any other strong crypto software it s not exportable legally it can be modified with permission from rsadsi which a number of people have received in the past for reasons that aren t entirely clear to me rsa says that only u s people should take rsaref from its server although there aren t itar issues regarding canada the ripem distribution site ripem msu edu has rsaref in its distribution and is ok for canadians marc vanheyningen mvanheyn cs indiana edu mime ripem accepted barney the dinosaur is simply rush limbaugh in a dinosaur suit lost boy
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some questions was revised summary here is a revised version of my summary that corrects some errors and provides some additional information and explanation thank you very much after reading the text some distinct questions arised to me which i guess will also be asked by other people perhaps would it be interesting to find an answer to these questions the clipper chip a technical summary n a bit serial number this length is subject to change shorter or longer once the session key k is established the clipper chip is used to encrypt the conversation or message stream m digitized voice the telephone security device feeds k and m into the chip to produce two values e m k the encrypted message stream and e e k u n f a law enforcement field which are transmitted over the telephone line the law enforcement field thus contains the session key k encrypted under the unit key u concatenated with the serial number n all encrypted under the family key f the law enforcement field is decrypted by law enforcement after an authorized wiretap has been installed first question when will the lawenforcmentfield be transmitted and how does the remote clipper chip handle it is it transmitted periodically in the stream of encrypted blocks or just at the beginning does the phone at the other side discard those packets via a protocol whatsoever or tries it to turn them into voice output which would not be disturbing at the beginning of a session a trusted agent from each of the two key escrow agencies enters the vault agent enters a secret random bit value s into the laptop and agent enters a secret random bit value s these random values serve as seeds to generate unit keys for a sequence of serial numbers thus the unit keys are a function of secret random bits where each agent knows only second question why why is such a strange procedure used and not a real rng this turns those s s in a kind of bottleneck for system security when law enforcement has been authorized to tap an encrypted line they will first take the warrant to the service provider in order to get access to the communications line let us assume that the tap is in place and that they have determined that the line is encrypted with the clipper chip the law enforcement field is first decrypted with the family key f giving e k u n documentation certifying that a tap has been authorized for the party associated with serial number n is then sent e g via secure fax to each of the key escrow agents who return e g also via secure fax u and u u and u are xored together to produce the unit key u and e k u is decrypted to get the session key k finally the message stream is decrypted all this will be accomplished through a special black box decoder so no technical provision will be taken to place a timeout on these warrants this would be a unique possibility to realize such a technical restriction by letting the escrow agencies perform the decoding of the session key just take modem lines instead of secure fax is this such a bad idea a successor to the clipper chip called capstone by the government and myk by mykotronx has already been developed it will include the skipjack algorithm the digital signature standard dss the secure hash algorithm sha a method of key exchange a fast exponentiator and a randomizer a prototoype will be available for testing on april and the chips are expected to be ready for delivery in june or july wow how does the randomizer work are the sha and key exchange secret or publicly known key exchange is dh i guess it seems that those who are opposed to this chip shall have a tough time your government realy means to act friendly greetings germano caronni instruments register only through things they re designed to register space still contains infinite unknowns pgp key id germano caronni caronni nessie cs id ethz ch fd ccf f da ea c dd f
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re screw the people crypto is for hard core hackers spooks only in article r l inn gq senator bedfellow mit edu jfc athena mit edu john f carr writes in most cases information you come by properly is yours to use as you wish but there are certainly exceptions if you write a paper which includes sufficiently detailed information on how to build a nuclear weapon it is classified as i understand the law nuclear weapons design is automatically classified even if you do the work yourself i believe you are then not allowed to read your own paper hate to mess up your point but it is incredibly easy to learn how to make a nuclear weapon the hard part is getting the radioactives to put in it have you ever read tom clancy s the sum of all fears it describes in great detail how a palestinian terrorist group constructed a nuclear bomb using stolen actually found plutonium with some help from an east german nuclear physicist for some non fiction read tom clancy s article five minutes till midnight it shows how a terrorist group could construct a nuke using neptunium a low grade radioactive waste product dumped in toxic waste sites and forgotten about he also claims information on constructing a nuke is easily found in any large library sounds kind of scary doesn t it a less serious example if you tell drivers about a speed trap they are about to run into you can be fined even though you might argue that you broke no law when you discovered the location of the policeman the charge is interfering with a police officer which is quite similar what you would be doing by reverse engineering the clipper chip don t tell me that you think this violates the constitution find some court cases which have struck down such laws many people would not be comforted by the fact that the government violated their rights when it imprisoned them don t know whether you could get busted for warning of a speedtrap doug holland doug holland anyone who tries to take away my freedom holland cs colostate edu of speech will have to pry it from my pgp key available by e mail cold dead lips
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re would clipper make a good cover for other encryption method in article strnlghtc t t j b netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes chances are the government has thought of this and just anyone won t be permitted access to enough of the internals to make a fake clipper chip chances are that the government has classified some details of the internals at a very high level and manufacturers are required to observe security safeguards and clearances corresponding to that level assume in this case the usual canard adversary of narcotraficantes they probably have more cash than the kgb did and they re probably more generous at handing it out it will be easier than ever to find or cultivate walkers and pollards for the keys and it will be easy enough to find someone to reverse engineer the chip unless the tamper proofing is damned clever and effective brad yearwood brad optilink com uunet pyramid optilink brad petaluma ca
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re off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine in article apr ulysses att com smb research att com steven bellovin writes and key size is one of the things that can be verified externally gee say they feed the bit key through snefru and take the first bits of the result then use those bits as the real key how do you figure out that each key is one of equal keys you can try a birthday attack but if the key can be changed only once a second then you will need several lifetimes to get reliable statistics somehow i don t think you could catch the nsa at this sort of skulduggery dan
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re the secret source of that announcement andrew molitor amolitor nmsu edu wrote monitor my phonecalls monitor usenet they may collect the data but making sense of it is another matter on sci crypt i m a graduate cs major with strong math background and experienced programmer taking a cryptology course keyword for alleged nsa filters on sci skeptic i m an ex physics major who s a new age flake talking about silly things like how a person s expectations colors what he sees on talk religion newage i m a physics geek who enjoys squashing interesting idea with wasp science although i do write occasional posts showing a minimal knowledge of zen mythology etc i could go on but i m sure you see my point i m a single person but i react differently on different groups admittedly in part because i m a contrarian you always shouts but on the other hand on top of that i loath certainty and have taken public positions in the past for no reason other than to challenge conventional wisdom i wish them luck in figuring out who i am based on that information they can probably figure out i m liberal with a technical degree but humanistic interests from a common thread throughout my posts but that describes a fair portion of the users of internet bear giles bear cs colorado edu fsl noaa gov
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re an open letter to mr clinton in article strnlghtc m cv hx netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes here s a simple way to convert the clipper proposal to an unexceptionable one make it voluntary that is you get high quality secure nsa classified technology if you agree to escrow your key otherwise you are on your own that s the disturbing part use of other products is voluntary for now and the press releases talk about the white house s unwillingness to decide that citizens have a right to good commercial crypto gear and about how commercial alternatives will be permitted as long as they provide key escrow services that s a clear implication that they re considering banning alternatives additionally use of real alternatives isn t totally legal you re not allowed to export really good crypto equipment except to the government s friends e g the australian government you can only export even bad crypto equipment with their permission and the regulators who control the cellular telephone companies make sure there are only two competitors so joe s garage cellular can t start offering a secure service pray for peace bill bill stewart wcs anchor att com at t bell labs m holmdel nj no i m from new jersey i only work in cyberspace white house commect line fax
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re clipper considered harmful in article r us oeh agate berkeley edu shirriff sprite berkeley edu ken shirriff writes in article optilink com brad optilink com brad yearwood writes finally because there is essentially no possibility of intercepting in realtime the scrutable content of communications between stolen instruments there will exist strong motivation to record and archive all communications in the network for ex post facto scrutiny once some criminal act is discovered and the instruments involved have been identified all is a very big number the at t long distance network has around t trunks mbit sec which is on the order of bits sec that doesn t even count the amount of traffic in the local phone companies or our long distance competitors it s about exabytes tapes second which is pretty large even for the nsa on the other hand i can easily see them recording the traffic for interesting people such as dissidents suspected criminals foreign telephone calls and anybody noticed using encryption as ken shiriff speculates recording encrypted traffic will probably be judged not to be an invasion of privacy pretty soon pray for peace bill bill stewart wcs anchor att com at t bell labs m holmdel nj no i m from new jersey i only work in cyberspace white house commect line fax
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sorry folks read this in article apr ucsu colorado edu andersom spot colorado edu marc anderson writes the date i have for this is note clinton s statements about encryption in the rd paragraph i guess this statement doesen t contradict what you said though cut here washington upi the war on drugs is about to get a fresh start president clinton told delegates to the national federation of police commisioners convention in washington in the first speech on the drug issue since his innaugural clinton said that his planned escalation of the drug war would make everything so far seem so half hearted that for all practical i just found out from my source that this article was a joke heh heh it seemed pretty damn convincing to me from the start i just didn t notice the smiley at the end of the article and there were a few other hints which i should of caught anyway i guess this joke did turn out to resemble clinton s true feelings at least to some extent sorry about that marc andersom spot colorado edu
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re clipper and ranting libertarians just a little nitpicking wasn t it the government that required a standard railway gauge didn t that improve things please don t misunderstand i m utter suspicious of this clipper chip why hold the design top secret was this a work around the law that says that any discoveries made by people working for the government is public domain e g nih class library etc des has its designs published all over the place and it is considered fairly strong although could be stronger ants
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fear uncertainty doubt i suspect that the decisive element in the political battle will be the fud fear uncertainty doubt factor if the people who would be end users of the cripple chip hear of the whole debate only vaguely the government says it s solid other people in the field say it s swiss cheese the balance of doubt could shift against the feds any attempt to limit other forms of encryption could then be presented as the government covering its own butt by protecting its poor product from superior competition comments
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re how large are commercial keys in apr ee eng ohio state edu butzerd maumee eng ohio state edu dane c butzer writes what are the typical sizes for keys for commercial secret key algorithms i know des is bits tripple des is bits and idea is bits is there anything made in the us that has bit keys anything anywhere that has larger keys i ve heard that rc can be scaled to arbitrarily large keys but is this actually implemented anywhere my mdc cipher which uses any one way hash function as a cfb mode stream cipher the current implementation uses md uses a key of up to bits that is you can use a bit key if you want and copy it over the entire bit range or you can use the entire bits runtime is independant of key size the system runs slightly slower than md itself i presume rc and rc use a similar system or possibly they just hash an arbitrary length key down to n bits maybe using something like md peter
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re sorry folks read this in article apr ucsu colorado edu andersom spot colorado edu marc anderson writes i just found out from my source that this article was a joke heh heh it seemed pretty damn convincing to me from the start i just didn t notice the smiley at the end of the article and there were a few other hints which i should of caught people took this article seriously i mean i know it s the net and all but the prankster didn t even have clinton s sound bites right rita rouvalis rita village com
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re once tapped your code is no good any more in apr ucsu colorado edu andersom spot colorado edu marc anderson writes the date i have for this is note clinton s statements about encryption in the rd paragraph i guess this statement doesen t contradict what you said though cut here washington upi the war on drugs is about to get a fresh start president clinton told delegates to the national federation of police commisioners convention in washington in the first speech on the drug issue since his innaugural clinton said that his planned escalation of the drug war would make everything so far seem so half hearted that for all practical purposes this war is only beginning now he repeatedly emphasized his view that regardless of what has been tried or who has tried it or how long they ve been trying it this is day one to me the audience at the convention whose theme is how do we spell fiscal relief f o r f e i t u r e interrupted clinton frequently with applause clinton s program presented in the speech follows the outline given in his campaign position papers a cabinet level drug czar and boot camps for first time youthful offenders he did however cover in more detail his plans for improved enforcement methods this year s crime bill will have teeth not bare gums clinton said in particular his administration will place strict controls on data formats and protocols and require the registration of so called cryptographic keys in the hope of denying drug dealers the ability to communicate in secret clinton said the approach could be used for crackdowns on other forms of underground economic activity such as the deficit causing tax evaders who live in luxury at the expense of our grandchildren clinton expressed optimism that the drug war can be won because even though not everyone voted for bill clinton last november everyone did vote for a candidate who shares my sense of urgency about fighting the drug menace the advocates of legalization the advocates of surrender may be very good at making noise clinton said but when the american people cast their ballots it only proved what i knew all along that the advocates of surrender are nothing more than a microscopic fringe just doing a quick reality check here is this for real or did someone invent it to provoke a reaction from people it sounds more like the sort of thing you d have heard suitably rephrased from the leader of a certain german political party in the s peter
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re estimating wiretap costs benefits i am most embarassed that my irrate intemperate post is still circulating i have been chided by experts for my behavior i now agree with all of them although some were no more restrained in their speech than i was i have apologized to robin hanson lew lew glendenning rlglende netcom com perspective is worth iq points niels bohr or somebody like that
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re do we need the clipper for cheap security gtoal gtoal com graham toal writes can someone tell me if hardware compression is or is not needed to run digital speech down k i think it is i ve heard it s not lets say bit samples would raw data at the corresponding sampling rate be usable if not how fancy does the compression need to be it s all easy with a dsp the olivetti quaderno for example great kg subnotebook palmtop pc sorry for the plug folks but olivetti don t seem to be doing a good job marketing it themselves includes sound digitisation hardware they provide vocoders for their dsp which produce varous bit rates there s one which gives pretty acceptable voice quality at kbit sec just right for a v bis modem their dsp can play and record at the same time too so you wouldn t need to play two way radio you can also download code to the dsp subunit though you d need a software development kit for the dsp in question dunno which it is if you wanted to produce your own vocoder for say v speeds paul paul ducklin duck nuustak csir co za csir computer virus lab box pretoria s africa
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re facinating facts bit serial number possibly fixed s and s in article pmetzger apr snark shearson com pmetzger snark shearson com perry e metzger writes hmmm we must assume that generating the unit key u from the serial number n rather than generating it from a randomly selected u and u is an intentional way of assuring a fail safe for the government u is completedly determined given s s and n if s and s do not change even if they remain secret i wonder if they can somehow be back derived given enough unit key serial number pairs maybe such pairs suffice to reconstruct s and s by such a back door in the encryption algorithm perhaps it would be possible for the manufacturer to get the keys of all chips that were programmed in one session this would not btw enable anybody else to retrieve the keys in the same way because they ll never get a bunch of n u pairs with identical s and s note that these have to be constant for the whole batch by the very nature of the procedure i e they have to be typed in manually by the random number supplying agents and i was wondering why they ll always do chips in one session since the procedure described by ms denning imposes high costs on the production of every chip at least three persons for one hour each plus the cost of a laptop finally blown to pieces in a spectacular hollywood like bonfire add travelling expenses drinks and lighting divide the sum by there won t be a larger demand not from the private sector anyway and let me mention one other thought that certainly has occurred to all the notoriously paranoid people in this group before who is going to verify that no interested party will perform tempest attacks on the vault where there s so much smoke and mirrors there can t be a nice honest fire but something really worth hiding detlef lannert dc ek e mail tsos rz uni duesseldorf de pgp key via server or finger lannert clio rz uni duesseldorf de i am psmith oh you re smith are you with a preliminary p which however is not sounded p g wodehouse
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sci.crypt
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re off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine in article apr silverton berkeley edu djb silverton berkeley edu d j bernstein writes in article apr ulysses att com smb research att com steven bellovin writes and key size is one of the things that can be verified externally gee say they feed the bit key through snefru and take the first bits of the result then use those bits as the real key how do you figure out that each key is one of equal keys you can try a birthday attack but if the key can be changed only once a second then you will need several lifetimes to get reliable statistics you re right and i retract the suggestion still i wonder that there are only bits of key information should in principle be detectable maybe some variant of the tests rivest et al did to demonstrate that des was probably not a group it should make an interesting paper a black box analysis of a cryptosystem
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6,926 |
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re tempest in article apr infodev cam ac uk rja cl cam ac uk ross anderson writes res colnet cmhnet org rob stampfli writes wouldn t a a second monitor of similar type scrolling gibberish and adjacent to the one being used provide reasonable resistance to tempest attacks we ve got a tempest receiver in the lab here and there s no difficulty in picking up individual monitors their engineering tolerances are slack enough that they tend to radiate on different frequencies even where they overlap you can discriminate because they have different line synch frequencies you can lock in on one and average the others out the signals are weird in any case with varying polarisations and all sorts of interactions with the building just moving a folded dipole around is also highly effective as a randomised means of switching from one monitor to another hell just set up a spark jammer or some other very electrically noisy device or build an active farrady cage around the room with a noise signal piped into it while these measures will not totally mask the emissions of your equipment they will provide sufficient interference to make remote monitoring a chancy proposition at best there is of course the consideration that these measures may and almost cretainly will cause a certain amount of interference in your own systems it s a matter of balancing security versus convenience btw i m an ex air force telecommunications systems control supervisor and telecommunications cryptographic equipment technician remember waco who will the government decide to murder next maybe you opinions are mine i don t care if you blame the university or the state
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6,927 |
sci.crypt
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des init vector as additional key the recent discussion in this news group suggests that a key search attack against des is quite feasible now but normally des is applied in cbc or cfb mode where one chooses a random init vector of bytes questions makes it sense to handle the init vector as an additional key then we have a bit key if yes is anything known about the security of this key scheme can we break it faster than by exhaustive search through the bit key space klaus pommerening institut fuer medizinische statistik und dokumentation der johannes gutenberg universitaet obere zahlbacher strasse w mainz germany
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6,928 |
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re once tapped your code is no good any more in article apr cs aukuni ac nz pgut cs aukuni ac nz peter gutmann writes article deleted just doing a quick reality check here is this for real or did someone invent it to provoke a reaction from people it sounds more like the sort of thing you d have heard suitably rephrased from the leader of a certain german political party in the s it sounds like a joke but then the war on drugs has always been a joke join the pythagorean reform church repent of your evil irrational numbers and bean eating ways accept into your heart call the pythagorean reform church bbs at
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6,929 |
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re text of white house announcement and q as on clipper chip encryption in article yuma acns colostate edu holland cs colostate edu douglas craig holland writes in article apr afterlife ncsc mil rlward afterlife ncsc mil robert ward writes in article bontchev fbihh bontchev fbihh informatik uni hamburg de writes and since the us constitutions guarantees the right to every american to bear arms why is not every american entitled as a matter of have you read the applicable part of the constitution and interpreted it in context if not please do so before posting this misinterpretation again it refers to the right of the people to organize a militia not for individuals to carry handguns grenades and assault rifles read the constitution yourself the second amendment says the right to bear arms shall not be infringed so a well regulated militia may be more easily formed i have an interpretation of the second that shows there are no qualifications to the right to keep and bear arms if you want i can e mail it to you by the way gun talk belongs in talk politics guns doug holland mr ward before you start blathering about your skill interpreting the constitution it might be helpful to learn to read after a review with a high school english teacher emphasizing participial phrases you might start with the second amendment and follow it up with th congress nd session committee print the right to keep and bear arms of the subcomittee on the constitution of the committee on the judiciary united states senate th congress second session february gpo no o this authoritative heavily researched and annotated document clearly turns your interpretation into specious claptrap which is a polite way of saying utter bullshit in spite of your false assertion to the contrary the second amendment does protect the right of the individual citizen in his capacity as an individual to keep and bear arms and mr holland imho blatantly and harmfully false information asserted as fact and globally distributed deserves globally distributed rebuttal in the forum in which it is posted and besides this site doesn t carry t p g harryb phred data io com phred harryb data io com no free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms the strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is as a last resort to protect themselves against tyranny in government thomas jefferson
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sci.crypt
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re the secret source of that announcement in article gradyc unp d netcom com grady netcom com ef writes andrew molitor amolitor nmsu edu wrote monitor my phonecalls monitor usenet provide only cryptosystems they can easily crack etc etc this is not to say that they don t they might but you don t know that they do and you have no evidence that they do for almost all values of you it follows therefore that for most values of you your claims about the nsa border on paranoia andrew or maybe the germans should have been a little more paranoid about their engima with respect to turing and the british how about the cracking of the zimmerman telegram would a little more paranoia have helped the germans here maybe the nsa should have been a little more paranoid about emma woikin or joseph sidney petersen jr or maybe you want to talk about macmillan publishers cooperation with the cia and nsa to suppress yardley s japanese diplomatic secrets or even kahn s the codebreakers paranoia right the most popular cipher systems in captured soviet spies was the one time pad even with the necessity of keeping incriminating evidence about is known to be the only proven unbreakable system soviet paranoia right and what do you think the nsa does with its wullenwebers and huge rhombics pointed embassy row and their sites near satellite uplink and downlink sites duh grady netcom com ef e ad d d c f fc ac f d f e f one case of slovenian paranoia once upon a time a tried to walk over the famous marathon field not far away from athens i could not do that mostly becouse the field is now a huge antenna farm probably a greek comint installation would you agree borut b lavrencic d sc x c si a mail p ac o ijs s lavrencic j stefan institute internet borut b lavrencic ijs si university of ljubljana phone si ljubljana slovenia pgp public key available on request dolgo smois kalis ovraz nikei njihk ocnoo dkril ivseb ipika
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6,931 |
sci.crypt
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re do we need the clipper for cheap security quoting pmetzger snark shearson com perry e metzger in article apr shearson com whats the difference between a v bis modem and a v bis modem how fast do the fastest modems go how far can voice be compressed i ve seen various assertions about this but anyone with the straightforward bits per second figures will be my friend forever o paul crowley pdc dcs ed ac uk trust me i know what i m doing x fold a fish for jesus
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6,932 |
sci.crypt
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re hard drive security for fbi targets if i forgot doesn t have as much credibility as you d like consider this alternative somewhere on the hard disk duplicated a few times keep a bit random number when the bit digest of your passphrase is computed it is xorred with the random number before being used as the key for your hard disk writing random junk over the random numbers makes the hard disk unreadable by anyone now if you were merely to claim that you have written random junk over the xor key no one would be able to tell whether or not you were telling the truth this is a perjury and b vunerable to rubber hose cryptography but otherwise effective o paul crowley pdc dcs ed ac uk trust me i know what i m doing x fold a fish for jesus
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6,933 |
sci.crypt
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alt security pgp begin pgp signed message hi all does anyone know of a unix utility allowing encrypted telnet sessions using public key i d like something so that nobody can snoop my password or session text while i m logging in remotely over the network thanks g please report unsigned hence unauthorised messages purportedly from me sent after gtf cus cam ac uk
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6,934 |
sci.crypt
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re bit keyseach machine jebright magnus acs ohio state edu james r ebright writes regarding nsa monitoring of us military code traffic btw folks nsa wasn t being given the keys and the walker spy case shows for some of the systems the kgb didn t need them either on the contrary the walker spy case is one where the kgb was given keys as i recall allen j baum apple computer baum apple com abaum armltd co uk
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6,935 |
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re an open letter to mr clinton ld lance colostate edu l detweiler writes i m quite astonished shocked and appalled at this serious frontal assault on emerging american freedoms the clinton administration nor any other government agency has any legitimate role whatsoever in regulating cryptography to do so is tantamount to regulating acceptable speech and is blatantly unconstitutional perhaps we should rename this year in honor of such an illustrious proposal let the crappy chip live in infamy and the adminstration receive great shame and discredit for this bizarre misadventure imho encryption is also protected under the second amendment of the constitution of the united states i am outraged that my tax money is being used to develop technology to restrict my freedoms far beyond reasonable measures the u s government will have my full uncooperation and disobedience on any serious threat to my liberties such as this and i call on everyone with an interest in a sensible government to resist and defy this proposal the administration does not seem to understand that they are merely a subservient instrument to implement the will of the public and hence anyone involved in this proposal in this respect is wholly negligent and remiss in performing their lawful duty i am not surprised that this administration is doing this i could have told you so cryptography is neutral technology if everybody has strong cryptography including policemen bureacrats businessmen housewives thugs and hoodlums we have a sustainable equilibrium anything less is an unworkable anti egaltarian arrangement intrinsically antithetical to american freedoms and guaranteed to collapse under its own weight of inherent impracticality we don t need to compromise on issues of freedom privacy has always been something that has the effect of restricting out ability to prosecute criminals we are supposed to have the presumption of innocence i have the right to pull the curtains over my windows and close my door and the police may not come in if i perform a crim in my home they will have to find out by means other than simply looking encryption is to my data as the window curtains are to my home simple enough for too long our government has demonstrated itself to be increasingly hostile and a serious obstacle to economic vitality and protecting americans and yet the people vote for these people because they come out a lie to them about promising to fix things the administration has to be committed to leaving private industries alone esp on this issue the government has no legitimate role in regulating the content of communications law enforcement agencies must be prepared to forfeit their surveillance bludgeon they are soon and inevitably to be disarmed of it you mean they might have to go back to actually working to do their job oh heavens no such laws can be constitutionally sound and this is equivalent to a veiled threat which i don t appreciate this kind of extortion tends to agitate me and others into radicalism i will trade threats for threats and violation for violation perhaps the first amendment definitely the second and fifth if the administration did say this it would find itself impeached for reckless and outrageous disregard of essential established entrenched and explicit constitutional privacy guarantees the administration would have no legal standing whatsoever such an action would be egregiously illegal and criminal and wholly untolerated and disregarded by vast segments of the population unfortunately the vast segments of the population are misinformed they just haven t appended sr to the name of out country yet this is an outright dingaling denning lie the two aims of privacy and surveillance are intrinsically and fundamentally incompatible and you have to work for the nsa to think otherwise americans are about to discover ways through the use of technology to preserve their inalienable but forgotten freedoms that have slowly been eroded away by an increasingly distant and unresponsive and unrepresentative government i seriously doubt that the nsa thinks that privacy and surveillance are compatible i doubt of any smart person in any other agency thinks so either the problem is that they simply hold privacy to be of no value at all phil howard pdh netcom com ka wgn spell protection a right wing conservative capitalists are out to separate you from your money left wing liberal do gooders are out to separate you from everything else
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6,936 |
sci.crypt
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overreacting was re once tapped your code is no good any more in this giant bally ho over this clipper chip i noticed a rather disturbing trend in some of the e mail and posts i ve tossing back and forth somebody asked me what was wrong about overreacting in cases such as this the reason is very simple how many people do you want to die in a riot in a new civil war everybody is jumping up and down and screaming about it and i m worried that people are going to reach for their hammers and rifles before their pens and paper can people work within the system before trying to break it examine your history books and find out how many armed revolutions led to democratic or democratic style governments i think you ll only find one in over five thousand years of written history that s not very good odds somebody once said something like armed violence is meant only to be used in response to an armed attack it is not meant to be used in agression this is the difference between self defence and murder let s try to avoid killing things eh there s enough blood shed in the world without adding a couple of riots civil wars etc i m probably overreacting but what i ve read scared me a lot i don t want my children growing up in a war zone jerry han crc doc div of behavioural research jhan debra dgbt doc ca these are my opinions and my opinions only a proud and frozen member of the mighty warriors band memories of those i ve left behind still ringing in my ears genesis
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6,937 |
sci.crypt
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re tempest res colnet cmhnet org rob stampfli writes wouldn t a a second monitor of similar type scrolling gibberish and adjacent to the one being used provide reasonable resistance to tempest attacks we ve got a tempest receiver in the lab here and there s no difficulty in picking up individual monitors their engineering tolerances are slack enough that they tend to radiate on different frequencies even where they overlap you can discriminate because they have different line synch frequencies you can lock in on one and average the others out the signals are weird in any case with varying polarisations and all sorts of interactions with the building just moving a folded dipole around is also highly effective as a randomised means of switching from one monitor to another ross
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6,938 |
sci.crypt
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re new reason for clipper alg m secrecy in article apr news clarkson edu tuinstra signal ece clarkson edu soe dwight tuinstra writes first note that the experts will only look at details and of just the algorithm in addition respected experts from outside the government will be offered access to the confidential details of the algorithm to assess its capabilities and publicly report their findings why not the chip design well here s the possiblity in addition to encryption the chip pre processes voice signals to make them easier to analyze transcribe electronically the chip once widespread might effectively be part of a massively parallel computer for voice grepping the us phone network or the criminal wrong thinking patrons thereof first of all the chip doesn t do that it runs at megabits second which is far beyond what you need for voice it s obviously intended for data as well and on high speed lines at that second what advantage is there to doing the processing in the phone i don t care how fancy that chip is it s not as fancy as the roomful of analyzers at fort meade running the program they ll have years from now they can t update every clipper chip that s out there third if they did do this preprocessing in the chip it would probably have a serious effect on recognizability of the voice patterns if nothing else that would hurt the acceptability of the product the v bis modems are just barely fast enough to do a good job on properly massaged voice as is add any more to the mix and you re completely out of the ballpark
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6,939 |
sci.crypt
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s s second question why why is such a strange procedure used and not a real rng this turns those s s in a kind of bottleneck for system security the only theory that makes any sense is that s and s are either the same for all chips or vary among very few possibilities so that anyone trying to break the encryption by brute force need only plow through the possible serial numbers about one billion multiplied by the number of different s s combinations
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6,940 |
sci.crypt
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can des code be shipped to canada someone in canada asked me to send him some public domain des file encryption code i have is it legal for me to send it thanx eschew obfuscation rob defriesse mail rj ri cadre com cadre technologies inc phone richmond st fax providence ri i don t speak for my employer
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6,941 |
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re clipper considered harmful from shirriff sprite berkeley edu ken shirriff message id r us oeh agate berkeley edu it seems likely to me that that a large subset of encrypted communications would be archived to tape so they could be read if sometime in the future probable cause arises and a warrant is obtained i think it is unlikely that data like this could be used in court currently leas can install wiretaps on large numbers of phones record calls without listening to them and then post facto obtain warrants and listen to calls after probable cause is established but this strategy wouldn t get the stuff admitted in court at least not in the near term in other words near as i can tell the thing that makes such evidence inadmissable is the interception without a warrant not the attempt to interpret what was intercepted without a warrant i d be surprised that archiving data without consent would be interpreted as anything but analogous to a wiretap by the courts note that that doesn t mean i think it won t be done if technically feasible just as i m sure many wiretaps are done now without warrants just to fish for avenues to investigate so in the future start surveilance start archiving data trump up some probable cause decrypt post facto after the warrant is in hand and the investigation gets a boost from data that sadly won t ever be presented to a jury while i m posting for an interesting cautionary tale projecting this archiving scenario to extremes read lacey and his friends a collection of sf stories by david drake the us starts down the slippery slope by archiving everyghing but don t worry folks it s stored in a secure repository where nobody but leas with warrants can get to it and by the way we ll be installing cameras on all major streets hey this is nothing new we already have cameras in banks and teller machines don t we and then we ll pass laws requiring cameras covering all public places then in some private places then we ll make it a crime ever to be out of range of a camera except in legally licensed privacy cubicles only alone and with a thorough body search before and after but see there s still a right to privacy we haven t curtailed any rights not really and just think how much easier it d be to solve crimes in such a situation just obtain a warrant put on a vr helmet and take a walk down memory lane and hey nobody ll be tracking you or me no need to be self conscious after all if you re not doing anything illegal funny though while speeding and the radar detector industry became pretty much a thing of the past somehow all this didn t elminate all crime in the story and somehow politicians got exemptions on grounds of national security and rich corporations got exemptions for their execs on grounds of industrial espionage and the preservation of competition and not everybody was exactly happy with the system i can t imagine why wayne throop throopw sheol concert net throop aurgate concert net
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6,942 |
sci.crypt
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idea vectors i am testing idea block cipher implementations for correctness and needs some golden test vectors i ve looked through the postscript idea chapter but the single example gives me zero degrees of freedom i ll contact the inventor if necessary but since we are not paying him money for use of his invention i d like to offload this from him anybody got vectors no disease vectors please grady netcom com ef e ad d d c f fc ac f d f e f
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6,943 |
sci.crypt
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re the secret source of that announcement in article c uxgv dv panix com habs panix com harry shapiro writes in r om c m slab mtholyoke edu jbotz mtholyoke edu jurgen botz writes even more interesting the smtp server at csrc ncsl nist gov no longer recognizes the expn and vrfy commands telnet csrc ncsl nist gov smtp trying connected to csrc ncsl nist gov escape character is first org sendmail nist ready at tue apr edt expn clipper command unrecognized seems like sombody didn t like your snooping around marc then it is a good thing we already have this the csspub mailing list csspab mail gw ncsl nist gov and address on rest of names deleted sigh my version of rn asked me whether i really want to send this posting you may as well know that all this stuff about the secret source of the clipper announcement is because of a silly mistake i am the administrator of csrc ncsl nist gov alias first org it s a system set up to help out the needs of first a forum of incident response and security teams which includes a number of world wide incident response teams such as cert cc and other places in europe as to the vrfy and expn commands they are normally disabled since early on we didn t want crackers to find out the names of incident response folks on our mailing lists we had a disk crash several months ago which required completely rebuilding the o s files same old story our backups weren t especially helpful as you can guess i didn t remember to re disable vrfy and expn until i saw people on the net trying to find out who was behind clipper csrc when i saw people s names posted here i felt it was time to clear things up so expn and vrfy on csrc have always been disabled in the past for reasons having nothing to do with clipper i posted the white house announcements at the request of policy folks here because csrc also provides usenet service i posted them from an account called clipper i also created an alias called clipper that contains the addresses of members of the nist computer security privacy and advisory board set up under law of the computer security act of and addresses of other individuals not affiliated with nist but involved in cryptography security and privacy i believe that these individuals were included on this list because nist felt it important to get them the clipper information first hand the clipper alias is there for the benefit of those named above it is not a source for information it was set up solely to monitor any initial traffic individuals on the list have requested that they continue to get traffic that is not already duplicated on usenet while you can rightfully say we were a bit disorganized in handling this i would ask that people stop speculating about any hidden agendas or motives of the individuals on the clipper alias i ve already apologized to them for what s happened disabling expn and vrfy is an increasingly common practice albeit unfriendly to some and any effect of disabling it again was unintentional john wack
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sci.crypt
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re do we need the clipper for cheap security in article aa pizzabox demon co uk gtoal gtoal com graham toal writes gtoal gtoal com graham toal writes in the uk it s impossible to get approval to attach any crypto device to the phone network anything that plugs in to our bt phone sockets must be approved for some reason crypto devices just never are whats the difference between a v bis modem and a v bis modem i m not being entirely silly here what i m pointing out is that the modems that they have already approved for data transmission will work just fine to transmit scrambled vocoded voice absolutely i just meant that no secure dedicated crypto device has ever been given approval guerrilla underground devices should be well possible with today s high speed modems not that i can think of many v bis modems that are approved either mind you just the overpriced couriers can someone tell me if hardware compression is or is not needed to run digital speech down k i think it is i ve heard it s not lets say bit samples would raw data at the corresponding sampling rate be usable if not how fancy does the compression need to be reasonably fancy standard voice circuits run at kbps inter exchange in the us therefore you need to achieve to get standard voice quality if you re willing to give up some quality you need only this is still acceptable from a speech standpoint it will be a little less faithful to the original but certainly intelligable that s all you really need for this application karl denninger karl genesis mcs com you can never please everyone except data line by bankrupting yourself live internet in chicago an mcsnet first
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6,945 |
sci.crypt
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re new encryption in article apr wam umd edu psionic wam umd edu haywood j blowme writes as promised i spoke today with the company mentioned in a washington times article about the clipper chip announcement the name of the company is secure communications technology information will be given at the end of this message on how to contact them his belief is that at t was made known of the clipper well before the rest of the industry this is for several reasons several of which are this is a very good point at t obviously knew and participated in the development of the clipper chip this amounts to unfair business practice and gives at t an early monopoly on the market hopefully a non existant market other companies that compete with at t in the cellular market motorola nec etc have grounds to file a complaint over this right now the company is afraid that the new clipper chip will put them out of business this is a very real possibility so they really need help in stopping the clipper chip from becoming a standard if you want to contact them they can be reached at secure communications technology georgia ave suite silver spring md it would seem that the one fact that the government has overlooked in this whole fiasco is the economic standpoint as others have mentioned the most difficulty the clipper chip faces is an economic one let s face it the average consumer doesn t care or know that the clipper is a bad idea if there is a perceived need for cellular encryption then the companies will provide one most likely a standard will emerge but if the clipper is too expensive and a chip is way too much then they will develope their own or buy a cheaper one i give sct my full support and hope the clipper chip goes the way of the beta video tape format also hope they get sued over re using the name clipper cyberspace david t croley mcc exp sys lab a place not real no stone no steel croley mcc com ut austin texas a ghost unseen the world between
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6,946 |
sci.crypt
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looking for crypto paper looking for postscript or tex version of a paper called public key cryptography written by james nechvatal security technology group national computer systems laboratory national institute of standards and technology gaithersburg md december the version i obtained is plain text and all symbolic character formatting has been lost gregb tosgcla den mmc com
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6,947 |
sci.crypt
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re overreacting was re once tapped your code is no good any more somebody asked me what was wrong about overreacting in cases such as this the reason is very simple how many people do you want to die in a riot in a new civil war not me which is precisely why the government must be cut off at the knees when it pulls stunts like this lest the situation worsen to the point where extreme measures are required
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6,948 |
sci.crypt
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public awareness wasre text of white house announcement and q as on clipper chip encryption in article rwing uucp pat rwing uucp pat myrto writes i think this is no accident it comes from the same philosophy that the government rules controls the people not the people controlling the government that the unconnected citizens are not sophisticated enough to know what is best for them so the government must tell the people what they need or do not need we know best and the idea that that a commoner can defend himself against government eavesdropping or unlawful attack is totally unacceptable to people with this outlook combine this all with pushing for national identity cards with smart chips to encode anything they please internal passport under the guise of streamlining the state people s health care system and with you can be certain more jewels yet to come and one sees an extremely ominous trend so what if will be ten years late it still is turning out to be an amazingly accurate prophecy unless a lot of people wake up and in a hurry one should always have every red warning light and bell and danger flag come up when the government seeks to set itself apart in regard to rights etc from the unconnected unprivileged citizen or should we now be saying subject instead why shouldn t the average person have a good secure system of data security not dependent on nebulous safeguards for maintaining that security why shouldn t the average person be able to defend himself from an agency gone rogue i am sure the feds could break into any data they really wanted to but it would take some work and using the same logic one should not be allowed to have a good safe unless a duplicate of the key s or combination are submitted for safekeeping by the government i don t really see a difference philosophically encrypted data sure won t evaporate not with such high tech tools as a tape recorder the average amerikan today seems to think that the government should be able to eavesdrop on everyone else opinion polls show that most people belive the bill of rights to grant too much freedom to people when it is not identified as such btw if anyone knows of a cite for that i d love to have it not only does this mean that these people are willing to give up everyone else s rights they don t even know what the bill of rights actually says how can we show the average person not the average usenet reader that people are actually entitiled to these rights so many people don t care if the government is taking more and more control of us all a little at a time if there was some sort of awareness of what the government is trying to do by a majority of the us population just think about what could be accomplished but there are so many that trust unthinkingly in whatever the media and government tell them
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ideas on clipper i have an idea as to why the encryption algorithm needs to be keep secret and some things that i think it implies of course these could all be wrong from the clipper chip a technical summary dorothy denning revised april the clipper chip contains a classified single key bit block encryption algorithm called skipjack the algorithm uses bit keys compared with for the des and has rounds of scrambling compared with for the des it supports all des modes of operation the algorithm takes clock ticks and in electronic codebook ecb mode runs at mbits per second each chip includes the following components the skipjack encryption algorithm f an bit family key that is common to all chips n a bit serial number this length is subject to change u an bit secret key that unlocks all messages encrypted with the chip encrypting with the chip to see how the chip is used imagine that it is embedded in the at t telephone security device as it will be suppose i call someone and we both have such a device after pushing a button to start a secure conversation my security device will negotiate an bit session key k with the device at the other end this key negotiation takes place without the clipper chip in general any method of key exchange can be used such as the diffie hellman public key distribution method once the session key k is established the clipper chip is used to encrypt the conversation or message stream m digitized voice the telephone security device feeds k and m into the chip to produce two values e m k the encrypted message stream and e e k u n f a law enforcement field which are transmitted over the telephone line the law enforcement field thus contains the session key k encrypted under the unit key u concatenated with the serial number n all encrypted under the family key f the law enforcement field is decrypted by law enforcement after an authorized wiretap has been installed suppose i knew how the algorithm worked and knew the n for my chip but did not know f then by cryptanalysis i might be able to determine f from if law enforcement field e e k u n f not knowing n would might make this much harder now suppose that i know f either legitimately or not if i know k either because i am involved in the conversation or i know u for a party in the conversation i may now be able to determine u for the other party if i know f i can also defeat the law enforcement field since i could make my own with a different k then the one i am using knowing f also allows traffic analysis to be performed so i might not know what you are saying but i could know who you are saying it too now i admit that someone trying to compute u will not have lots of messages to work from but since we have no way of knowing that the key generation method does not deliberately generate weak keys or for that matter that the published method is in fact used perhaps the u s will be chosen from know weak keys for the system obviously the compromise of f would be a disaster both to law enforcement for whom this whole thing is designed and for the people who believe that it is giving them security f is but one number and i sure that alot of people more then know what it is and if some panel of experts is going to check it over for flaws then many more will know f forget grinding chips bribery and blackmail work just fine so am i wrong or are these problems jon
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re once tapped your code is no good any more in article r t mc access digex net steve b access digex com steve brinich writes i wonder if she landed such a fat fee from cooperation with the nsa in the design and propoganda stages that she doesn t care any more which is to say is the nsa totally perfidious or does it at least have the redeeming virtue of taking care of its own g of course they take care of their own very well until the person has outlived his her undefined usefulness then elimination becomes a consideration pat rwing uucp without prejudice ucc pat myrto seattle wa if all else fails try uunet pilchuck rwing pat wisdom only two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity and i am not sure about the former albert einstien
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6,951 |
sci.crypt
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re off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine was re corporate acceptance of the wiretap chip in article strnlghtc wcmo fx netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes at the company i worked for previously i received a file that was des encryped and the person that had sent it went on vaction rather than wait two weeks i set up a straight frontal attack with one key at a time it only took two days to crack the file no i don t have any faith in des taking this at face value though it seems quite dissonant with much else that has been published here about brute force des cracking unless russell was lucky with respect to the key i d be very interested in whether the program russell used is available key search is very practical in many real situations since people use such stupid keys on the average password crackers know this well depending on his answer this could be an appalling development calling into question both des and rsa des not really in fact public key based communication systems very often pick keys automatically which are much better than passwords or pass phrases if any bright programmer with a little idle machine time can crack a single des message in a couple of days assuming no tricks that are message specific if a person picked the password or pass phrase then the key search is pretty straightforward in running english text the average content of a single word is about bits in pass phrases this may increase to bits or so searching bit spaces is semi practical even in software and searching bit spaces isn t outrageous to imagine with hardware assists of moderate size
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re organized lobbying for cryptography in article c uprt gmq dcs ed ac uk pdc dcs ed ac uk paul crowley writes perhaps these encryption only types would defend the digitized porn if it was posted encrypted these issues are not as seperable as you maintain in fact since effective encryption makes censorship impossible they are almost the same issue and they certainly fall into the brief of the eff it also falls within the purview of the aclu but that doesn t mean the aclu or the eff would be the most effective instrument to win the hearts and minds in favor of access to cryptography it s precisely slogans like cryptography makes censorship impossible which stand to torpedo any attempt to generate a broad consensus in favor of encryption it is not true and in the context of a public debate it would be a dangerous red herring advocates of strong crypto had better prepare themselves to answer such charges in pragmatic terms that laypeople and politicians can sympathize with the usual mumblings about constitutional amendments are not enough tal kubo math harvard edu
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re the secret source of that announcement in article gradyc uamw bng netcom com grady netcom com ef writes maybe we should start a newsgroup for the distribution of encrypted posts intended of members of affinity groups with a shared private key for example at the coming up cypherpunks meeting a private key corresponding to that particular meeting could be passed out by a moderator minutes followup comments to other participants and so on could be posted to the alt encrypted group for the use of the people who attended communiques intended by the group for non attendees could of course just be signed using the private key but otherwises not encrypted i like it pgp would be useful i guess although i don t have a working version for vms yet grady netcom com ef e ad d d c f fc ac f d f e f david l cathey inet davidc montagar com montagar software concepts uucp montagar davidc p o box plano tx fone
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re once tapped your code is no good any more in article apr celestial com bill celestial com bill campbell writes in strnlghtc p zp zm netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes in article apr yuma acns colostate edu holland cs colostate edu douglas craig holland writes note that measures to protect yourself from tempest surveillance are still classified as far as i know i think this to be inaccurate one can buy tempest equipment commercially even macs sure you can buy a tempest approved mac if you have enough money i haven t had any reason to look at this type of pricing for about years but a tempest rating in would raise the price of a radio shack model iii to something around or just dig a deep enough hole in the ground feet should do it redsonja olias linet org rs self possession is of the law alien we control the laws of nature how come when it s human it s an joel and you still dress that way abortion but when it s a chicken mst k gamera vs guiron it s an omelet george carlin
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let s build software cryptophones for over the internet well after a lot of trawling through archives i found the post i reproduce in full below is it time to get together to develop a tcp ip standard for crypto voice that we could then layer on point to point slip as the free standard for crypto voice like pgp is for mail ps note the date of this post appropriate huh from jpcampb afterlife ncsc mil thu jul from jpcampb afterlife ncsc mil joe campbell newsgroups comp compression research subject re sound compression algorithms date jul gmt organization the great beyond in article jun sequent com lff sequent com lou fernandez writes the techniques for production systems revolve around code excited linear prediction celp algorithms which capture ms or so of speech and attempt to match the speech with a combination of signals from a codebook choosing the combination which minimizes the error in case you d like to experiment with celp you can obtain a software implementation of the bps fed std celp coder for free the u s dod s federal standard based bps code excited linear prediction voice coder version celp fortran and c simulation source codes are now available for worldwide distribution at no charge on dos diskettes but configured to compile on sun sparc stations from bob fenichel national communications system washington d c fax in addition to the source codes example input and processed speech files are included along with a technical information bulletin to assist in implementation of fs celp an anonymous ftp site is being considered for future releases copies of the actual standard federal standard telecommunications analog to digital conversion of radio voice by bit second code excited linear prediction celp are available for each from gsa rm th d st sw washington d c the following articles describe the federal standard kbps celp coder it s unnecessary to read more than one campbell joseph p jr thomas e tremain and vanoy c welch the federal standard bps celp voice coder digital signal processing academic press vol no p campbell joseph p jr thomas e tremain and vanoy c welch the dod kbps standard proposed federal standard in advances in speech coding ed atal cuperman and gersho kluwer academic publishers chapter p campbell joseph p jr thomas e tremain and vanoy c welch the proposed federal standard bps voice coder celp speech technology magazine april may p for u s fed std bps celp realtime dsp code and information about products using this code contact john dellamorte dsp software engineering middlesex tpk suite bedford ma fax dspse bedford channel com dsp software engineering s code can run on a dsp research s tiger board a pc board with a tms c x and analog interface suited to development work or on intellibit s ae tms c based by card dsp research intellibit e duane ave p o box sunnyvale ca mclean va fax fax joe campbell n jbc jpcampb afterlife ncsc mil compuserve com my opinions are mine happiness reality expectations click clack
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re fighting the clipper initiative in article he pb rhyolite wpd sgi com vjs rhyolite wpd sgi com vernon schryver writes in article strnlghtc toc kiu netcom com strnlght netcom com david sternlight writes even the department of agriculture has successfully kept crop forecasts from leaking prematurely sheesh remember the big scandal a year or two or ago about exactly such leaks my choice for the escow house would be the smithsonian and someplace on the west coast my biggest concern isn t that the escrow house could be compromised it will be but the fact it has been compromised will be kept secret the keys could be kept under glass with hour c span coverage if you thought your key had been stolen just turn on the cable and wait until the roving camera reachs the musuem case with your key or if you think the c span satellite has been compromised take a tour of the smithsonian yourself and view the seal on your key sean donelan data research associates inc st louis mo domain sean sdg dra com voice work
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re let s build software cryptophones for over the internet i forwarded an old posting about celp speech compression in case you d like to experiment with celp you can obtain a software implementation of the bps fed std celp coder for free the u s dod s federal standard based bps code excited linear prediction voice coder version celp fortran and c simulation source codes are now available for worldwide distribution at no charge on dos diskettes but configured to compile on sun sparc stations from i ve since been told that the source of this is on cygnus com in pub celp speech tar z i m not in a position to any sun tcp ip gurus out there who think they can marry this with netfone by the end of the week seriously i think someone with real net access and two sparcs could have this running by the end of the week then we ask the pgp guys to add a bytestream crypto filter two weeks at the most damn i wish i had my sparc back i m stuck on a mhz sx share and enjoy g ps you ll have to use archie to find netfone i have a copy but no note of where it s from author in the docs is kelvin autodesk com and he appears to be located in france
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re do we need the clipper for cheap security from caronni nessie cs id ethz ch germano caronni in article aa pizzabox demon co uk gtoal gtoal com graham toal writes can someone tell me if hardware compression is or is not needed to run digital speech down k i think it is i ve heard it s not lets say bit samples would raw data at the corresponding sampling rate be usable if not how fancy does the compression need to be as far as i know isdn call it swissnet here and it s being plugged in it s bit hz gives you one channel of kbit sec i guess you should not go below a sampling rate of hz if you want to have same quality as on an analog line anybody knows compression algorithms factors for voice i ve posted some info on celp coding on sci crypt looks like you can squeeze speech into bps if you have a fast enough computer like a sparcstation or a newton with the acorn risc machine in it this drops the bandwidth to so low a figure that it s feasible to run speech over tcp ip running on top of slip down a v bis modem not only will this let us run point to point encrypted speech it ll let us run speech internationally over the internet if no one stops us by getting very heavy about regulations the thought of this if the administration realised would probably scare them shitless now of course the trick is to develop and define a standard protocol for internet speech damn fast allowing anyone who feels brave to inplement custom handheld hardware as well as us hacking it on our workstations shouldn t be too difficult the celp stuff is standardised we use tcp ip streams and a protocol allowing silences to be used to catch up on any net lag and also to avoid sending any data during silences ie it s not wise to be synchronised real time on each end because any net delays would add up to big voice lags as for me i m going to press ahead on trying this stuff as soon as i get my sparc back from being loaned out and buy the necessary microphone it ll save me a fortune in calling my friend in texas every night whether encrypted or not you know surely someone is working on this who it s so obvious why doesn t it exist already i ve only seen netphone for suns and it didn t do the celp compression so was restricted to ether connections g
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re would clipper make a good cover for other encryption method from brad optilink com brad yearwood assume in this case the usual canard adversary of narcotraficantes they probably have more cash than the kgb did and they re probably more generous at handing it out it will be easier than ever to find or cultivate walkers and pollards for the keys and it will be easy enough to find someone to reverse engineer the chip unless the tamper proofing is damned clever and effective if the administration really believes big time drug dealers are the threat personally i thought it was the cia and the air force that did all the real drug shipping then they ought to take this seriously unlike the kgb drug dealers can make a most convincing argument for cooperation help us and we ll be nice and give you some money don t help us and we ll start cutting off your favourite body parts after all it was probably an argument like that that persuaded jack ruby to shoot oswald in full view of the police life in jail probably seems much more preferable to most people than several weeks of something nasty followed by no life at all g
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sci.crypt
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re off the shelf cheap des keyseach machine was re corporate acceptance of the wiretap chip at the company i worked for previously i received a file that was des encryped and the person that had sent it went on vaction rather than wait two weeks i set up a straight frontal attack with one key at a time it only took two days to crack the file no i don t have any faith in des a g fun three questions what hardware did you use when you found the key was there anything about it that was special that meant you had been lucky to find it early like the first bits all being or did you mean a dictionary attack rather than a binary key attack g
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re pgp ideas for ibm systems i ve been thinking about how difficult it would be to make pgp available in some form on ebcdic machines don t encourage them let ebcdic machines die an honorable death g
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re is key escrow enough the points raised about checking what is actually in the chip as opposed to what is allegedly programmed therein raise yet another trust issue even if we assume that these trusted agents are really entering a wide range of s and s seeds rather than using the same one all the time to reduce the key search space to bits i assume they are not doing so by picking up an iron filing and poking it into the circuitry at carefully selected points to encode data they would presumably be punching numbers into a computer which for all they know could program the chips in a manner completely independent of the s and s values they are feeding into the system s and s are clearly the backdoor we should assume they are all compromised if they re not compromisable why the hell not use a hardware true random number source there isn t a random number source anywhere in this proposal the whole thing is deterministic from the day the serial number is stamped on the chip nope it can t be trusted this is all about two levels of access the possibly honest key escrow that police forces have to use and ostensibly the fbi and the back door that lets the nsa decode everything on the fly and maybe some back handers to the fbi when they want a warrantless tab in exchange for favours g
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sci.crypt
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re do we need the clipper for cheap security there are chips which perform the voice compression expansion they can t be expensive because they exist in many phones connected to pbxs or on the pbx line cards as well as in a lot of equipment which compresses voice grade circuits to save the cost of long distance leased t s or satellite circuits i can t remember the generic term for these chips my impression is that this was a big deal years ago but circuits have gotten so cheap that it isn t done much now codecs they have to get about compression on bit samples to squeeze them down v bis i played around with the lossless shorten program last night but it only managed i ve got some specimen celp code but it s not obvious that it runs in real time i think it s just proof of concept code and i have some mucking about with file formats to do before i can put my own sample through it looks like the current option is to use a voice mail modem with built in dsp chip to do this in hardware that means two modems for a system putting the cost at upwards ouch maybe soon we ll be able to do it in software on high powered games consoles isn t the do an acorn risc machine inside that cpu runs like shit off a shovel and will be nicely mass market too g
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sci.crypt
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re clipper considered harmful from pmetzger snark shearson com perry e metzger you obviously haven t read the information about the system the chips put out serial number infomation into the cypher stream to allow themselves to be identified the system does not rely on registering people as owning particular phone units and probably as a back door to allow re generation of the secret key have we determined yet that s and s don t ever change g
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sci.crypt
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re clipper considered harmful does dorothy denning read this group if not is someone on the group forwarding questions like these to her or martin hellman or anyone else who s seen more details about the chip of course she does it s just she s been toasted so often for being an nsa patsy that she s keeping her head down you can always mail her directly as denning guvax acc georgetown edu denning cs cosc georgetown edu or denning cs georgetown edu g
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re help with tracking device in article fba e ff aesop rutgers edu mcdonald aesop rutgers edu writes there are a variety of water proof housings i could use but the real meat of the problem is the electronics hence this posting what kind of transmission would be reliable underwater in murky or even night time conditions i m not sure if sound is feasible given the distortion under water obviously direction would have to be accurate but range could be relatively short i imagine or hundred yards would be more than enough jim mcdonald refer to patents by james harris rogers he details methods of underground and underwater wireless communications for a review refer to electrical experimenter march and june rogers methods were used extensively during the world war and was unclassified after the war supposedly the government rethought this soon after and rogers was convieniently forgotten the bottom line is that all antennas that are grounded send half of their signal thru the ground the half that travels thru space is quickly dissapated by the square of the distance but that which travels thru the ground does not disapate at all furthermore the published data showed that when noise drowned out regular reception the underground antennas would recieve virtually noise free if you find this hard to believe then refer to the work of the man who invented wireless tesla tesla confirmed that rogers methods were correct while hertzian wave theory was completely abberant et tesla was years ahead of his time perhaps now his time comes
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sci.electronics
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new england ham electronic fleamarket dates april update new england area major flea market dates p of all events are ham radio electronic related except contact source april upper saddle river nj crrc sell jack w ehd d april southington ct sara hs n gcv f april nashua nh ne antique rc res ctr church ray april cambridge ma flea at mit nick f buy a sellers sp a in adv for season pass rd sunday each month april thru october april webster ma ecara pt breeze rest tables gary f april agawam ma hcra southwick rec ctr a bob w zgp f april dayton oh adm sell evenings f may yonkers ny lincoln hs otto wb slq a may rochester nh hoss traders fg ex off rt noon fri wa ivb sase may n smithfield ri rifmrs vfw main st a rick k kyi may cambridge ma flea at mit nick f may pittsfield ma taconic hs sell buy cliff w sjv may rochester ny arrl ny conv monroe fg harold k hc f june s burlington vt mitch wb jsj june newington ct hs flea les ka krp june bangor me pine st arc hermon es am roger june cambridge ma flea at mit nick f july nashua nh ne antique rc res ctr church ray july union me fairground am state conv skeet ka lpw last update de w gsl p of additions corrections via internet w gsl athena mit edu us mail w gsl pob mit br cambridge ma sase for updated copy as issued contact source july cambridge ma flea at mit nick f rd sunday each month april thru october july manchester nh nhara hi a ne dc ts no tg wb hbb f aug white planes ny wecafest sarah n eyx d aug wellseley ma wars bars babson college barry wn n t aug st albans me snow mobile club hitch k hhc aug cambridge ma flea at mit nick f aug fall river ma bcra tom wa lbk t sept windsor me fairground am skeet ka lpw sept gaithersburg md far mg cty fg a tg nancy drahim j sept s dartmouth ma se mass ara a dan n hcv sept cambridge ma flea at mit nick f sept sandy hook ct candlewood ara harold kb us a sept greenbush me wcsn barc wcsn xmtr ed cockburn sept framingham ma hs barry wn n f sept yonkers ny metro arc otto wb slq a oct rochester nh hoss traders fg ex off rt noon fri k rqg oct cambridge ma flea at mit nick f nov plymouth ma mayflower rc mem hall sell jim nm f nov branford ct scara intrm sch brad wa tas t last update de w gsl p of source f flyer j john roberts list a arrl list wr nv cq qst mags t tentative early info d w dl new info this month this list has been compiled from many sources while we believe the info to be accurate the author can not be responsible for changes or errors check with the sponsoring organizations for more details this list will be posted monthly to usenet if additions have been made mailed copies are sent when additions are made additions corrections via internet w gsl athena mit edu us mail w gsl pob mit br cambridge ma sase for updated copy as issued
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6,968 |
sci.electronics
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re electronic tesla coils in article mar wuecl wustl edu dp cec wustl edu david prutchi writes in article c cntg jv spk hp com long spk hp com jerry long writes fred w culpepper fculpepp norfolk vak ed edu wrote a couple of years ago i put together a tesla circuit which was published in an electronics magazine and could have been the circuit which is referred to here this one used a flyback transformer from a tv onto which you wound your own primary windings it also used power transistors in a to years ago i built a volt tesla and the thing was very spectacular but besides scaring amazing friends depending on their knowledge of science and generating strong emi i never found anything useful that could be done with it is there any real world application for tesla coils today david prutchi first of all realize that tesla invented ac power generators motors transformers conductors etc technically all transformers are tesla coils in general though when someone refers to a tesla coil they mean an air core resonant transformer the tv flyback version tesla coil see the encyclopedia of electronic circuits v for diagram has not an air core it is of a class of circuit called oscillating shuttle circuit osc generally osc s are highly efficient but this version uses transistors and resistors which are very lossy devices typically tesla used active reactances instead of passive resistors so that he could achieve efficiencies of and better the usual application of an air core resonant transformer or of an osc is to produce strong emi for wireless broadcasts how well do you think your computer screen would work if we removed the hf hv tesla flyback coil from it if we were to remove from our homes and industries all tesla coils our lights would go dark our cars would sputter and die our radios would go silent our industries would grind to a halt and we would have to go back to using coal for heat gas for lamps horses for transportation steam for power and telegraph for communication is that real world enough for you get the message we would not have the convieniences we have today if not for tesla give credit where credit is due if it had been up to edison we d still be in the th century flame me at your own peril i m very good at putting edison down et tesla was years ahead of his time perhaps now his time comes
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sci.electronics
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re radar jammers and stealth cars eric h taylor writes if you are determined to go faster get an airplane they dont have speed limits just don t make a habit of buzzing your local airport at knots knots if you re flying a jet
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sci.electronics
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wanted protel easytrax for the mac the title says it all contact me via email if you would can help me out mike harpe university of louisville p s i know it is discontinued i want someone who would like to sell an old copy michael harpe programmer analyst information technology ormsby bldg harpe hermes louisville edu university of louisville louisville ky he s not a man he s a remorseless eating machine the simpsons
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sci.electronics
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re what is zero db sehari iastate edu babak sehari writes similarly people usually use db for dbm another common mistake is spelling db instead of db as you did in your article see the b is for bell company the mother of at t and should be capitalized thus a decibell deci l tenth of bell is a fractional part of the original bell for example southwestern bell is a decibell and the measure of current amp is actually named after both the amp company and the amphenol company both companies revolutionized electronics by simulatenously realizing that the performance of connectors and sockets were affected by the amount of current running through the wires the ohmite company was the first to characterize resistances by numbers thus our use of the ohms alexander graham bell actually is where bell came from actually bel refers with highest regards babak sehari joseph chiu josephc cco caltech edu os you gotta get this thing msc caltech pasadena ca os the operating system of tomorrow today
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6,972 |
sci.electronics
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site for projects does anyone out there know of any ftp sites which deal with electronics projects plans etc any response appreciated jb jason blakey blakey ug cs dal ca
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sci.electronics
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access bus was i c bus from mx andy macrae corp sun com apr to srgxnbs cc subj re i c bus and long haul serial also axlo return path andy macrae corp sun com received from sun com by grv grace cri nz mx v c with smtp tue apr received from corp sun com lemay corp sun com by sun com smi id aa mon apr pdt received from grendal corp sun com by corp sun com elliemay corpmail inbound id aa mon apr pdt received by grendal corp sun com smi id aa mon apr pdt date mon apr pdt from andy macrae corp sun com andrew macrae message id aa grendal corp sun com to srgxnbs grace cri nz subject re i c bus and long haul serial also axlo cc andy macrae corp sun com content length in article pii innk t zephyr grace cri nz you write whats required to get onto the access bus the nice thing about the i c is that most i o requires one pin dil chip ie its cheap and easy anyone can design a bus trouble is most buses require a host of interface chips and often on board intelligence bruce for the latest information on access bus call the access bus industry group at also sun will be hosting the next meeting of the group on april th here in mountain view for some reason i am not able to post to any newsgroups today so please feel free to pass this information on yourself as you see fit andrew macrae
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sci.electronics
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re jacob s ladder g m alpha ru ac za brad meier writes hi i m looking for a circuit that is called a jacob s ladder this little box is usually seen in sci fi movies it consists of two curves of wire protruding into the air with little blue sparks starting at their base where the two wires are closer to each other moving up the wires to the top and ending in a small crackling noise could anyone supply me with the schematic for the innards of this box thanks in advance mike please reply by email to g k alpha ru ac za the knightorc g m hippo ru ac za when it s over i ll go home until then i stay me i d like any accumulated information on this as well please thanks baden de bari o o baden sys bison ca baden inqmind bison ca
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sci.electronics
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wanted dram controller for use with mc hc for an upcoming project i want to use megs of dram configured as two meg banks of bit data i was wondering if anyone out there knows of a dram controller which will handle refreshing the data it s ok if the controller doesn t handle bank switching that part is easy the only controllers i know of are the ones out of the national semiconductor dram management handbook edition eg dp i would like to know if another manufacturer produces one which may be easier to implement in my circuit btw if anyone is wanting to hook up dram to a microcontroller dallas semiconductor makes a neat chip the ds serial dram nonvolatizer chip it uses the spi i c bus and refreshes controls up to mx of dram memory it can use an external battery to refresh the dram when the power is off price is from dallas quan i wish i could use this chip but its maximum spi clock rate is mhz too slow for me thanks in advance wayne schellekens schellew wu wl aecl ca wayne schellekens ve wts internet schellew wu wl aecl ca aecl research ax ve wts ve kv wpg mb can whiteshell laboratories twisted pair x
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sci.electronics
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re hv diodes in article pohuq sq grouper mkt csd harris com wdh grouper mkt csd harris com w david higgins writes i believe the only thing that needs correction mr vanderbyl is your attitude nope mr myers has found the bad mistake and posted a correction thank god acting the child won t gain you any favors or make a who s acting positive impression with anybody ghod knows you ve make an impression on me just not a positive one oh no i haven t impressed mr higgins
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sci.electronics
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an external timer i was wondering if anyone knows of a chip that that is similar to the internal timer on the intel c i want a timer that has a maxcount a and b and the output should the same as intel s timer i called intel and they told me that they don t make such a chip any suggestions are welcome thanks in advance rajan ranga e mail rajan cco caltech edu
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sci.electronics
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re re using old databooks in article apr hemlock cray com kilian cray com alan kilian writes jeh cmkrnl com this is almost exactly the reason i keep only the latest databook around too many times last years books turn into three years ago and the data in them doesn t match the current production parts tanstaafl alan kilian but if you are in the habit of trying to repair old and obsolete machines the old data books are a goldmine of information you can not get anywhere else if you are trying to find a modern replacement for an obsolete part the original specs really come in handy design out of the new books but save the old ones or donate them to a ham if anybody in phoenix disagrees i ll drive over and help them get rid of all their old data books john data books and growing
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sci.electronics
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homebuilt pal epld programer anyone know a reasonable circuit for programming pals i am interested in programming a wide range of eplds but would be happy with something that could handle a v or thereabouts thanks in advance tim timd fenian dell com rev tim deagan official obnoxious poster no one but me is responsible for anything i write believe in or preach it is difficult to free fools from chains they revere voltaire
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sci.electronics
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a d board bus speed probl c hi c i have a dx mhz computer to use with an a d board c for data acquisition on an at bus i m having problems c the at bus runs at mhz correct so there should c be no bus speed conflict but i read somewhere that the c new dx mhz cpu runs on a mhz bus is that for c the local bus or the at bus also if so then i have a problem c c when i run on non turbo mode the speed goes to mhz and the c a d doesn t work please mail your views thanks c vincent c cyl musica mcgill ca c the standard at bus isa runs at mhz not mhz but some non stnadard isa buses do have higher clock rates but be careful since some boards don t work with faster than standard rates for instance my has adjustable at bus speeds and my pas audio card chokes when i do ad data acquisition with a bus speed faster than mhz the fact that non turbo mode speed a d doesn t work is weird you may have a motherboard with a hardware bug mhz bus on the dx does refer to the local bus fyi the at bus operates asynchronously and is linked to the local bus via a bus interface which is one function that your chipset rdd winqwk b unregistered evaluation copy kmail d w net hq hal k ann arbor mi us or hal bbs qwk to usenet gateway four v bis dial ins free usenet mail and newsgroups pcboard am uupcb kmail call or member of eff asp asad mb disk serving ann arbor since
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sci.electronics
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re pc parallel i o r jd all pc parallel ports that are compatable with the ibm standard r jd including the original ibm adaptor are bi directional not all parallel ports are bi directional without modification my experience with the standard old zenith parallel port in their original s proves that they had the input direction disactiviated by tieing them r w select line of the circuit to vcc to make it bi which i did i had to modify it by scraping off the trace and solder a jump to the proper location i thought that this was just lazy on the part of zenith they were not zenith bull group at that time rdd winqwk b unregistered evaluation copy kmail d w net hq hal k ann arbor mi us or hal bbs qwk to usenet gateway four v bis dial ins free usenet mail and newsgroups pcboard am uupcb kmail call or member of eff asp asad mb disk serving ann arbor since
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sci.electronics
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re telephone on hook off hok ok circuit these circuits abound in most electronic project books if you re more inclined to buy something try radio shack i think they still have a device that is designed to disconnect an answering machine when an extension line is lifted it has led indicators also kyler
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6,983 |
sci.electronics
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re police radar just how does it work in article afge wb dvu juts ccc amdahl com dws p ps cd amdahl com david sharpe writes there are a few more details to radar and some rumors that are not true a common one is that two beams are sent one reading the car speed and one the ground speed if this were true then calabration would be murder hope this helps flame on gee then i guess the extra horn that s mounted in the floor of some sdpd cars firing at the ground at a shallow angle is just for show huh for calibration they simply turn off one horn or the other jamie hanrahan kernel mode systems san diego ca internet jeh cmkrnl com uucp uunet cmkrnl jeh cis
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6,984 |
sci.electronics
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re log stereo high quality pot hi fi in article apr eng cam ac uk cmh eng cam ac uk c m hicks writes cobust seagoon ee sun ac za cobus theunissen writes hi there i am looking for a high quality log stereo k pot for an audio preamplifier the design specifies alps rkga k ax but i cannot find it anywhere any suggestions the best pots around imho are made by penny giles in the uk their basic model has a solid brass case and conductive plastic elements matched to db across the whole rotation the downside is that they cost upwards of quid each the p g pots are very good the alps ones are usually carried by the same folks who run the audio amateur magazine i ll also recommend the noble potentiometers if you don t mind weird metric sizes on everything scott
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sci.electronics
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re police radar just how does it work in article pqb ainn vg hp col col hp com cab col hp com chris best writes the manual also got into the cosine effect wherein the motorist always gets the benefit of the doubt effectively depending on relative directions of the radar gun and target car the reading will always be the same as or lower than the actual speed of the car never higher and always remember that the cop doesn t even need radar to ticket you his her word as a skilled observer is enough the father of a friend of mine is a police officer in west virginia not only is his word as a skilled observer good in court but his skill as an observer has been tested to be more accurate than the radar gun in some cases no foolin he can guess a car s speed to within mph just by watching it blow by whether he s standing still or moving too yes i realize that calibrated guns are more accurate than this but his ability is not that uncommon among people who watch moving things for a living i have heard so what good is a radar detector except to give you a split second warning that the guy who just cut you off to pass the guy ahead and to your left is about to panic stop from on a crowded freeway mark s underwood ee student university of kentucky lab assistant boyd hall microlab a tiny little division of uk library microlabs e mail msunde mik uky edu
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6,986 |
sci.electronics
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re help with ultra long timing thanks for the resposes as they were all good ideas and i am looking at using a couple of the ideas i recieved in the mail today the spec sheets on the mil spec version of exar s xr timer counter chip it is stable down to c and sucks very little power they show an application for a ultra long time delay up to several years depending on the rc time constant in this application they have two of them cascaded together the reset and trigger pins of both chips are tied together and the timebase of the second chip is disabled in this configuration the output is high when the system is reset when triggered the output goes low and stays that way for a total of x the timing cycle of the first chip the total timing cycle of the two chips can be programmed from to x r x c to x r x c in steps by selecting any combination of the counter outputs to the timer output the beauty of it is the timebase chip would only have to have a uf timing cap and a k resistor for seconds per timing cycle so i can get a maximum of seconds between timing cycles x or about days of course that s much more than i need days but the counter allows for binary steps that can be selected for the output for the pellet puker after the first days and it trips it would reset its self for the next day timing cycle and so forth power is still a problem though a few ideas that you suggested was to bury the electronics in a hole dug in the snow as an insulator and put the pellet puker up on a tower above the estimated snow fall with a solar panel on it to keep a charge on a lithium battery pack i like that idea this thing has to work for at least six weeks for three samples and the gas valves are volts to spit the pellets out onto the snow anyway i ordered the xr s to see what i can do with them should be interesting as long as i m not the one that has to go digging up the pellets in the middle of antartica freezing my buns off thanks again everyone wes
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6,987 |
sci.electronics
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re pc based layout program frank hielscher hielsche aragorn csee lehigh edu wrote the pads zip files contain subdirectories and have to be unzipped via pkunzip d then an xcopy s to three floppies creates the disks needed to do the install i m still not sure how this is supposed to work since the zip files took up about mb so it must be a tight squeeze on those floppies however i managed to install pads and i m pretty impressed i created a couple of schematics without problem but whenever i try to create a pcb layout from one of my circuits rather than the demos it doesn t work i m wondering if maybe a file isn t where it should be can anyone who has a printed manual comment on whether the registration fee is worth paying chris chris hand lecturer internet mail cph dmu ac uk dept of computing science voice x de montfort university the gateway fax fidonet leicester uk le bh linux free unix for ibm pcs
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6,988 |
sci.electronics
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re principle of the breathalyzer in nz apparently things like aftershave are also giving positive readings
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6,989 |
sci.electronics
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re hc blues no can find in article pat fegmania wustl edu pat fegmania patrick niemeyer writes i too had trouble finding hc s when i looked for them a while back i d be interesting in hearing if anyone knows about their availability now the newest jdr microdevices catalog has at least one variant of the hc rainer m malzbender fyzzicks cu boulder
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6,990 |
sci.electronics
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re oscilloscope triggering in article apr dxcern cern ch jeroen dxcern cern ch jeroen belleman writes in article c vs g ux murdoch acc virginia edu dgj y kelvin seas virginia edu david glen jacobowitz writes is it just me or does anybody else out there not like digital scopes my school has david jacobowitz dgj y virginia edu oh no you re not the only one analogue scopes give you or me at least a fair idea of what s going on in a circuit digital scopes seem to have a habit of inventing a sizable part of it e g even when there are only a few samples per period our hp a displays a continuous waveform complete with non existing overshoots i ve waded through lots of manual pages and menus but i haven t found yet how to turn this off it doesn t show which points have actually been measured as opposed to those which have been interpolated either perhaps you re using the wrong brand sorry all hp fans but i have a hard time being convinced that their scopes match the rest of their excellent gear one of the principal functions i look for when considering a dso is whether you can turn interpolation off the other important feature is to disable repetitive waveform acquisition i e being able to lock the instrument into real time capture mode secondly i don t like menus i want to see all common functions with their own button you ll have guessed i love analogue tek scopes i d choose a knob with printed legend over an on screen display with up down buttons right away the single knob of most digital instruments never seems to be connected to the right function at the right moment i agree with you here the only consolation is that manufacturers are beginning to pay attention to ergonomics when designing the menus however to be fair it seems that first time scope users our students seem to adjust to menus easier than navigating around the twenty or more knobs required of a real scope last but not least you never know if the waveform displayed is old or recent noisy or just incoherently modulated heck you don t even know if it really looks the way it s displayed digital scopes only show you a tiny fraction of what s going on most of the time the re busy computing things this is one area that newer dsos are addressing i recently evaluated the latest box from tek their tds which seems to be a worthy alternative to a standard mhz analogue cro this instrument has a mhz ms s spec meaning that it is always in real time capture mode the pricing also matches equivalent analogue scopes in the range the downer is that the instrument uses menus again but at least they appear to be logically laid out there are only three situations for which i would prefer a digital scope looking at what happened before the trigger looking at rare events and acquiring the data to have my computer play with it let s hope scope manufacturers are listening best regards jeroen belleman jeroen dxcern cern ch one more thing about the new simpler front panels these instruments tend to use digital rotary encoders as knobs now this is a vast improvement over the old oak switch the single most common cause of failure in our scopes other than students blowing up inputs is mechanical wear on these switches i look at the new panels as a great step toward increasing the longevity of the instruments johnh electronics department school of mpce macquarie university sydney australia email johnh mpce mq edu au ph fax
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6,991 |
sci.electronics
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compressor problem i have a stereo compressor limiter by audio logic model mt the gates work but the compressor seems to be gone on one channel and very weak on the other i ll probably need an ocsilloscope to trace it down no pun intended but if any one with experience with this type of equipment could point me in a certain direction as to where the circuit is most likely to fail i d sure appreciate it robert c stephens rob dexter psych umn edu human factors research lab university of minnesota
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6,992 |
sci.electronics
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pioneer laser player i m trying to figure out how to operate a pioneer laserdisc ld that i bought at a surplus store it is reputedly from some kind of computerised viewing and or ordering system there is what may be an hpib connector on the back when i power it up the front panel power light comes on but no activity and the door doesn t open anyone have any experience with this unit or any ideas on how to obtain documentation
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6,993 |
sci.electronics
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re help with ultra long timing in article apr kuhub cc ukans edu wellison kuhub cc ukans edu writes i have a project that was drooped in my lap that is somewhat a pain to design what i am looking for is a stable ultra long solid state timer what they want to do is to place this thing on the antartic ice shelf and measure the amount of snow fall over a period of six weeks every two weeks they want to trip a selonoid to discharge different colored pellets by gas pressure out across the snow then by digging down into the snow the snow fall amount can be measured as they come to the different color pellets the problem is trying to build a timer that would stand the cold degrees and a power source that wouldn t drain i have looked at the xr timers and the standard ne dual timers but thier temp specs won t go that low also two weeks equates to seconds per firing which means one big timing cap i have found farad yes farad caps that have a working voltage of volts and are small in size but again the time of discharge at or lower degrees isn t linear i was thinking of using several timers chained together to fire the selonid at the end of the timing period but that blasted cold and the drain on a battery over six weeks is the pain one possibility would be to use solar panels but this is during the six month twilight anyone have any good ideas thanks in advance wes firstly i would never consider trying to make a one shot timer your f cap will have been designed as a ram battery substitute rather than for use in applications where you wish to drain the cap with a constant current their performance in some respects is more akin to batteries than to a normal cap the other point is that big electro s are usually rated with tolerances so calculating exactly what capacitance you have particularly when considering the cold you should be looking at designing a micropower oscillator and divider chain that rolls over from zero to maximum count or vice versa once every seconds if you were to use something like a hz clock you would need a divider chain of to give an error of less than one percent in the firing times over the six week period of course you could trim the hz oscillator to give you exact time but the likelyhood of the oscillator remaining exactly constant at is low anyway i would suspect that there would be far more battrey drain in firing the solenoid than there would be in the timer circuit caveat i m not experienced in low temperature electronics so i can t guarantee that this or any other approach is the best for inhospitable conditions johnh electronics department school of mpce macquarie university sydney australia email johnh mpce mq edu au ph fax
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6,994 |
sci.electronics
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re protection of serial rs lines martin john gregory mgregory flash pax tpa com au wrote i ve started to look at some devices doing serial data transmission over fairly decent distances in fairly noisy environments and have seen a variety of schemes for protecting the rs transceivers and the rest of the circuit from transients on the serial lines i m left wondering what is the best way of doing this how necessary is it stuff deleted what is the wisdom on this out there ta martin from what i know protection is necessary esp if you plan to route the cables into an unknown environment out of your control things like accidental shorts between the signal lines and power cables or even lightning strikes are very likely and i don t think you like to see the sight of your computer going up in smoke even ethernet cards are protected i ve looked at the one in my pc and the connector is protected by a gas discharge tube but if you plan to use the serial cables for internal routings i e in controlled environments it should be reasonably safe not to have them suggestion look in the rs data book they have several rs transceivers that have overvoltage protection among them include the lt lt and max and max the maxims are suppose to be electrically isolated ones but still need opto isolators to work don t ask me why i ve never used them before another alternative is an rs surge protector two are listed in the rs catalogue if you need additional info i e stock nos just e mail me soh kam yung engp nusunix nus sg
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sci.electronics
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re protection of serial rs lines laird stable ecn purdue edu kyler laird writes there is at least one optically isolated rs transceiver chip i don t remember where i saw it rs components they exist in australia and the uk don t know about the us have little chips called isolated max and they give you isolated rs from a single v supply external components are caps optoisolators a diode and an isloting transformer they go up to k baud john west for the humour impaired insert a after every third word
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6,996 |
sci.electronics
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need sources for hv capacitors recently my video monitor went dead no picture some low distorted sound i didn t hear the tell tale cracking that indicated hv at work nor are the filaments at the far end of the tube glowing orange just nothing on examining the power board i noticed the largest capacitor with a very bad bulge at the top naturally i want to replace it but i can t find any sources the electrolytic capacitor is mf at wv it has radial leads and is roughly inches long wide the dimensions are important since the whole board fits in a metal cage leaving little room living in the los angeles area i ve been to numerous stores dow radio all electronics itc elect sandy s yale elect with empty hands can anyone suggest sources for high voltage capacitors mail order is fine although i d rather check out a store to compare the can i m going to try a video electronics store hopefully they ll have hv caps by the way the monitor is a atari sc goldstar circuitry masushita tube anyone else had problems thanks in advance rich k email rkim opus calstatela edu
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6,997 |
sci.electronics
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re help with ultra long timing in article c wi g a athena cs uga edu mcovingt aisun ai uga edu michael covington writes don t use big capacitors they are unreliable for timing due to leakage instead use a quartz crystal and divide its frequency by times or something like that mhz divided by cycle per weeks approximately i wouldn t expect any components other than batteries or electrolytic capacitors to fail at c or f for that matter either the battery is going to be your big problem also of course your circuit shouldn t depend on exact values of resistors which a crystal controlled timer won t wouldn t a crystal be affected by cold my gut feeling is that as a mechanically resonating device extreme cold is likely to affect the compliance terminology of the quartz and hence its resonant frequency michael a covington internet mcovingt ai uga edu artificial intelligence programs phone the university of georgia fax athens georgia u s a amateur radio n tmi johnh electronics department school of mpce macquarie university sydney australia email johnh mpce mq edu au ph fax
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6,998 |
sci.electronics
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re hc blues no can find in article pat fegmania wustl edu pat fegmania patrick niemeyer writes ree zach fit edu keith ledig writes was told by other people that it just takes a long time i heard rumors that the hc is very hard to get these days and is being replaced by the series the sales person is trying to push the can someone please tell me what is going on with these microcontrollers i can t seem to get a straight answer i too had trouble finding hc s when i looked for them a while back i d be interesting in hearing if anyone knows about their availability now thanks pat the hc is an eprom version of the hc raw hc parts have factory set rom images and as such are useless to the hobbyist hc parts have eeprom allowing for electrical erasure and reprogramming some motorola parts such as the hc k have eprom making them user programmable but come with options of either windowed or sealed the more expensive windowed packages allow multiple use the plastic dip varieties are one time programmable since there is no way of exposing the eprom array to light johnh electronics department school of mpce macquarie university sydney australia email johnh mpce mq edu au ph fax
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6,999 |
sci.electronics
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v to v and v at a the subject line says it all i m working on a project that will use a car battery i need to pull off v and possibly v at a i have several ideas but i d prefer to benefit from all you brilliant people conquest is easy control is not tom glinos u of toronto statistics star trek tos tg utstat toronto edu usl forgot this simple history lesson
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