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Global Dominance: Olympic Winnings vs GDP - hartleybrody
http://hart.ly/olympics-data/
======
poundy
These facts stand out about the Olympics:
\- Phelps has won more Olympic medals in his career than India in all Olympics
\- Jamaica won 2 medals at women's 100m a few minutes go. Bolt still has to
go. Why Jamaica?
\- The United States has heavily relied on its dominance in swimming, racking
up 23 of its 37 medals in the pool.
\- Kazakhstan has 5 medals, all gold! Four in weightlifting. Population is
barely 16 million
Will be interested to find more
~~~
hartleybrody
There are certainly lots of ways to slice and dice the data. Download my
research data and add to it!
------
nhaehnle
The author provides raw data (kudos!), but if you're just interested in a
quick overview on the ranking in the current olympics vs. population and GDP,
you can take a look here:
<http://www.billmitchell.org/sport/medal_tally_2012.html>
| {
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Get Off My Stoop: The Media's Race to Wrong - davepell
http://tweetagewasteland.com/2012/12/get-off-my-stoop/
======
stackcollision
I completely agree with this. "We'll check the facts later" is not how
journalism should be done. Modern 'journalists' are just sensationalists.
| {
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Ask HN: Subtle web accessibility shakedown or cunning SEO? - philiphodgen
I received a friendly email from an "Accessibility Intern" at http://www.accessibleunited.org, complaining that one of my blog posts linked to Wikipedia, which (the intern claimed) is not accessible to disabled people.<p>The email suggested that I instead link to a different website that has a page on the same topic.<p>The site -- accessibilityunited.org -- was registered on GoDaddy in mid-June, 2017. It's new. As you might guess, WHOIS information is opaque.<p>My paranoid mind :-) sees two possible reasons for the email I received:<p>* A subtle way to generate backlinks for the site that the Accessibility Intern recommended. Maybe an SEO firm is hiding behind the facade of a do-good organization that they created for this purpose. (This happens in politics all the time).<p>* A subtle way to set me up for an ADA lawsuit, claiming my website is not accessible to the disabled. Unfortunately I have seen bottom-feeding law firms (I do not judge, and I am not bitter that they are besmirching the reputation of a profession of which I am a member) make a killing this way.<p>Web searches revealed nothing about accessibilityunited.org except that it appears to live on shared hosting at Hurricane Electric.<p>So. Has anyone else seen these emails? Does anyone else have insight into what might be happening here?
======
ohashi
I had someone get a very similar email trying to get someone to change a link
from me to a competitor. It sounds almost identical with a different domain.
They linked to some accessibility checker. The problem, the site they tried to
convince didn't pass this checker either. But the person who emailed wasn't
concerned about that, they just wanted a link to me changed to my competitor
(who was obviously their client).
If it's the same pattern, it's just a malicious negative SEO campaign. I'm
planning on writing about it soon.
------
brudgers
Maybe someone is just pointing out that your website is inaccessible.
For what it is worth, the Americans with Disabilities Act does not attract
"bottom feeding law firms." It provides no monetary damages. It provides no
attorney's fees. It only provides injunctive relief (and mediation). In other
words all of the costs under ADA are borne by the plaintiff except for what
the defendant chooses to spend on their defense. Thus lawsuits under the
Americans with Disabilities Act are rare.
The lawsuits about which one reads outrageous reports are inevitably filed
under state law and typically California's statute which does provide for
attorney fees and damages. A few other states have similar laws, but in most
of the country ADA compliance is spotty...and on the web it is pretty much the
exception.
If it really matters, hire an attorney familiar with the case. If it sorta'
matters read the law yourself. If it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter.
~~~
philiphodgen
Thanks for the reply. I am California-based so the outrageous reports I hear
are caused by California law. Hence, I am at risk from Lawyers of Ill Repute.
Actions Will Be Taken.
While it would be nice to assume this is a Good Samaritan pointing out a
problem with a page I link to, my suspicion is otherwise. A Good Samaritan
would not hide behind a cloak of invisibility.
Anyway. This post is now accessible to search engines and hopefully will help
the next person who gets a cryptic email from a bland facade.
~~~
Mz
_While it would be nice to assume this is a Good Samaritan pointing out a
problem with a page I link to, my suspicion is otherwise. A Good Samaritan
would not hide behind a cloak of invisibility._
Former naïve Good Samaritan here who has learned to be a lot more circumspect.
I have Baggage on this topic. I have deleted a multiple paragraph rant about
all my Baggage. (You are welcome.)
Good Samaritans who have been burned enough learn to pack a cloak of
invisibility for survival purposes.
That doesn't prove they aren't nefarious actors, but their cloak of
invisibility is also not evidence of nefariousness. It might just be evidence
that they have been around the block a time or two and have gotten a clue
about a few things.
~~~
philiphodgen
Thank you for this insight.
------
LarryMade2
Sounds suspect to me, very vague, looks like it's looking for referrals to
sign people up for some service.
official stuff would be from ada.gov, or some more popular, well documented
site, not some one-off.
The wording could be some propaganda site, heh, with phrases like:
\- We identify highly accessible websites with vital information. \- We reach
out to webmasters to notify them of an opportunity. \- We offer free resources
to webmasters who want to go accessible. \- Most importantly, we do all our
work with love. We Care.
ADA and accessibility sites actually provide much of the free info without
having to contact anyone...
| {
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Google Could 'Rig the 2016 Election,' Researchers Claim - prostoalex
http://fortune.com/2015/08/23/research-google-rig-election/
======
tonypace
Stop giving them ideas.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
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‘Dutch sandwich’ grows as Google shifts €8.8bn (~$12bn) to Bermuda - yapcguy
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/89acc832-31cc-11e3-a16d-00144feab7de.html
======
dpcx
Sadly, the article is rather difficult to read, as the interstitial ad
redirects you back here when you click the "X".
Come from
[https://www.google.com/#q=http:%2F%2Fwww.ft.com%2Fcms%2Fs%2F...](https://www.google.com/#q=http:%2F%2Fwww.ft.com%2Fcms%2Fs%2F0%2F89acc832-31cc-11e3-a16d-00144feab7de.html&safe=off),
and it works fine.
| {
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Ask HN: A VC firm wants to meet. should they pay for the flight? - jayzee
They seem to be reluctant/ignore that qs in email thread a couple of times. What's the standard? I thought that I give up my time and they give up their money was the general way things worked.<p>Or are they not interested and just wasting our time?
======
bdclimber14
Lot's of VC firms do fish for information.
I don't have much experience, but I would say "We're very busy right now and
as a bootstrapped startup, all available funds are funneled into improving our
product and delighting customers. Airfare isn't an affordable option right
now, but I would love to meet the next time you are in the area."
If they really are interested, they will offer to pay for the tickets right
there. If they aren't serious, then they probably won't.
------
andrewstuart
Are you sure you know if it is them, or if it is you that wants to meet?
If someone called me and said "I love your company I'd like to meet", I'd say
"well you can come into my office Friday if you like". If they said "we're too
busy to come to you" then I'd say "I'm pretty busy too, let me know when
you're in town next and we'll meet."
The fact that they have said "let's meet" and you have rushed to buy a ticket
to go to them probably means you want to meet them more than they want to meet
you, therefore they will not pay for the flight.
~~~
jayzee
I have not bought the ticket yet.
But I am not talking abt my specific case. What is standard/typical? I thought
that they should pay and the fact that they have not brought it up would imply
to me that they are not that interested and they are just fishing.
But may be I am reading too much into it and vc's don't pay. Which is why I
want to know what is typical.
Thoughts folks?
~~~
andrewstuart
I'd ask them what they want to meet about. Why have they contacted you? Do
they have specific questions? What would they like to cover in the meeting?
Can it be covered over the phone?
Who initiated the contact? If they contacted you then you have the "hand" and
can ask all these questions. If you have been chasing them down asking for a
meeting then probably you have to do as they ask.
------
damienbasile
Take another approach - set up other meetings with other VCs in the same city
around the same time to justify the trip. Taking a trip on your own dime for
one VC firm isn't as cost effective with your time, unless you're in the later
stages of talks and even then if it's going well then they will fly you out
with their money. My initial thoughts are to either do that or search close to
home. If they're really interested they'll make it happen at all costs.
It's a HUGE red flag that they're reluctant or ignore the questions in the
email thread a couple of times. If it's not a policy of theirs to pay to fly
out a prospect then that's fine, but say it up front. I personally wouldn't
want to have anyone invest in my company that hems and haws around a pointed
question.
------
ra
_Or are they not interested and just wasting our time?_
You can expect to have to meet lots of investors, many of them several times
over before you actually manage to secure any funding. The ones you meet that
don't work out aren't wasting your time any more than you are wasting theirs.
If they've agreed to meet you then it's probably because they see potential,
either now or at some point in the future. To reduce the signal/noise ratio be
sure not to overstate the progress you have already made as a company.
The value of honesty in self-representation can not be over stated.
------
petervandijck
I don't think that's done. It's not good for them (they would have to pay
heaps of tickets) or you (you show weakness).
------
pclark
Erm, the VC should _come to you_.
------
gojomo
Everything's negotiable, but also everything's a signal.
If springing for your airfare was the key to making a investment they really
wanted, they could do it easily (even if they've never done it before). But
also, asking for the airfare makes you seem a bit desperate for what (to a
healthy business that just needed expansion capital) would be a trivial
expense.
I like the "why don't you come visit us" response, especially if the travel
distances make it a potential morning-out, evening-back trip for the VC who's
interested in your business. It expresses interest but not too much, openness
but also confidence.
If you do take the time and expense yourself – and presumably this is to visit
the valley – then be sure to _meet many investors on the same trip_. See all
the Venture Hacks stuff on setting up a time-compressed market for your
fundraising... though you could also view your initial visit as just a
testing-the-water/getting-feedback exercise, figuring you'll return with a
more focused fundraising agenda later.
| {
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Why Android Tablets Will Dominate - martythemaniak
http://martin.drashkov.com/2011/03/why-android-tablets-will-dominate.html
======
dillon
If you look at iPhone and Android phones, the same may be true for tablets,
but look how long it took and how much money companies spent on Android
products to get this outcome.
| {
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Make Love, Not Flamewars - swah
http://bitquabit.com/post/make-love-not-flamewars/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+bitquabit+%28bitquabit%29
======
ivanbernat
It's because we [developers] are highly opinionated people and [most of us]
love to be "right". Some people have a hard time understanding other people
might not think the same - and in cases when they don't know how to express
their feelings - you get name calling.
~~~
hello_moto
General truth right there sir.
Maybe there is a correlation between developers and math? Since I'm guessing
many developers might have a CS background that involves a lot of Math,
Statistics, Physics, and of course Programming. These subjects require people
to answer things correctly hence subconsciously create a habit of being
"right".
~~~
zbyszek
You are probably right, and it's odd because if I've learnt anything from my
time in science research, it's that science isn't like your school homework or
undergraduate exams where there is a right answer. I find the notion that
there is some absolute Truth which science expounds not to be useful. A useful
thing is to be less wrong and to have a good handle for all the ways in which
one might be through assumptions, approximations, systematic uncertainties and
so on. The wider relevance of all this is the recognition that technical
decisions involve some sort of trade-off and are not necessarily the end of
the story. In science it's a healthy thing to have different approaches or
formalisms because it gives some confidence in the results if they agree. I
don't know if that has any wider relevance.
------
dkarl
_I have a solution.
Instead of talking about why you are better than the other guy, let’s focus
purely on why your system of choice rocks. That’s it._
Nice diagnosis; useless solution. Tool quality is relative. Fast, easy, safe,
these are relative terms. Take me back to 1995, and CVS would be my best
friend. Repositories rarely get corrupted, and when they do, they're easy to
fix! For 1995 values of "rarely" and "easy", at least. Standards are different
now because better competitors have emerged.
------
Joakal
I like to think that promoting what you currently use gains more traction for
what you use in terms of; community, documentation, features, demand, etc.
Applies to all languages and software.
But yeah, the immaturity with using fallacies (especially ad hominem) to argue
puts me off and it doesn't help with the general community votes for it.
Some links for those who wish to know how to debate like an intellectual:
<http://www.fallacyfiles.org/taxonomy.html>
<http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Logical_fallacy>
------
krosaen
relevant: how to disagree:
""" After he has said, "I understand but I disagree," he can make the
following remarks to the author: (1) "You are uninformed"; (2) "You Are
misinformed"; (3) "You are illogical - your reasoning is not cogent"; (4)
"Your analysis is incomplete." """
[http://books.google.com/books?id=Z5PpkQadm5EC&lpg=PA154&...](http://books.google.com/books?id=Z5PpkQadm5EC&lpg=PA154&vq=disagree&pg=PA156#v=onepage&q=i%20understand%20but%20i%20disagree&f=false)
With this in mind, I think saying "I love mercurial" without at least
referencing git, the more popular DCVS, will be less convincing since anyone
can say, "Your analysis is incomplete - haven't you tried the most popular
DCVS?"
~~~
mmatants
I agree: the issue with "I love X" as a pure statement is that it has nothing
to do with why we argue on the Internet.
Debating a topic is supposed to enrich us on that subject. I have changed my
opinion on things before, based on Slashdot comments (this was way back), and
now based on HN comments.
Of course, there is also the need to portray ourselves as clever. That's the
real driver for flamewars: sophistry.
But saying "I love X" does nothing for either cause. People interested in
rational decision-making are not engaged; trolls are not discouraged; and
newbies are not educated on how to argue better.
(edit: fixed a run-on sentence)
------
sitkack
I am utterly offended, DOS is awesome. Esp for embedded devices where the OS
and the application are the same thing. Less complexity leads to more
stability.
Flame wars are the most virulent when the enemy is extremely close to your
position but doesn't take it. Emacs and VIM, essentially the same. Mercurial
and GIT, again, the same. If the differences are too far apart the whole
argument becomes, meh.
meh.
~~~
gecko
Fair enough, so let me remind anyone who wants a very thin OS for embedded x86
applications that FreeDOS (<http://www.freedos.org/>) is a great DOS for the
purpose.
~~~
sitkack
Although I haven't used it, there is a version of Python for DOS,
<http://www.caddit.net/pythond/downloads.php> but Lua might be a better
choice.
------
sebastianconcpt
Relevant, focus on the positive outcome instead of a stupid futile private
little war that only distracts people from doing great work with whichever
freaking tool they needed to use in order to achieve it.
------
thyrsus
Apparently there are many good arguments for Mercurial, and many bad arguments
for mercurial. The author says:
"These questions matter. And they’ve been answered, very eloquently, many
times."
I've used CVS, svn, bzr, and git - I'm still a newbie on those last two and
therefore persuadable - so where do I read these Hg answers? Seriously, I'm
not doubting that they exist, but I'm getting the impression that google
results will be polluted, and I'm not sure even the most beatific tweet stream
is going to pull me in; but I will peruse the tweet recommended
<http://hginit.com/>
Seriously, where are the issues carefully explained and addressed?
------
krosaen
Well, saying "I love mercurial" without some mention of why you aren't using
git, which is more popular, will seem like an incomplete argument. Not using
what most others are using has drawbacks, so some justification is needed. But
it is true that spending too much time promoting something in terms of its
competition can weaken the argument. A tough road for the underdog; try
explaining why you are excited about android tablets without mentioning the
ipad 2 :)
FWIW I love hg and android.
~~~
hvs
_Not using what most others are using has drawbacks, so some justification is
needed._
This is only true in the open source world and then only in one corner of it.
Subversion is still, by far, the most used version control system in the
enterprise.
And why should someone have to argue why they _aren't_ using git? If he loves
Mercurial, great! He doesn't have to explain why he doesn't use _every other_
version control system in existence.
~~~
krosaen
Good question. I think git is so relevant to the mercurial argument since it
is distributed, so if you are saying why you love mercurial, at least
acknowledging git will strengthen your argument, as it is the most popular
DCVS. Without that mention, readers might falsely think you are uninformed and
haven't heard of or tried git.
------
Confusion
That won't make a lick of difference. Any statement of the form 'X is great,
because ...' or 'I like X, because ...' will be interpreted by a bunch of
people as 'He means Y, which I love, is not great and is lesser than X.
Otherwise, he would be using Y. He must obviously think it sucks, which shows
what an idiot he is'. And the stage is set.
People can't help themselves. They want to defend their choices, even when
their choices aren't under scrutiny. They will follow up with a fallacy or two
and they start arguing from positions that are so ludicrous that even with the
best initial intentions you forget to point out the fallacies they must
obviously have committed to arrive at their starting point and just start
refuting them. That way, they suck you in.
Only if there are sufficiently many people in a community resistant to this
kind of trolling, pointing it out to each other and refraining from feeding
the trolls, only then can sensible discussion come about. But it's hard not to
get sucked in. It reminds me of David Foster Wallace's speech about being
aware of the water that you are in: it's hard work and requires an amount of
self-awareness that can be exhausting.
~~~
raganwald
_That won't make a lick of difference. Any statement of the form 'X is great,
because ...' or 'I like X, because ...' will be interpreted by a bunch of
people as 'He means Y, which I love, is not great and is lesser than X.
Otherwise, he would be using Y. He must obviously think it sucks, which shows
what an idiot he is'. And the stage is set._
Nobody forces you to pander to these people's neuroses. _You are not the troll
whisperer_. This over here is my favourite interview question. That over there
is my favourite line of Ruby code. This is my favourite book. I wrote blog
posts about all of these subjects and attracted exactly the responses you
describe. But I was happiest when I ignored the people who had an agenda of
arguing about their favourite interview question or their favoruite line of
code or their favourite book.
Nobody compels you to play their game. So don't.
~~~
Troll_Whisperer
By choosing a favorite, you cannot help but choose an infinitude of not-
favorites. With a high-traffic blog such as yours, it's near certain that some
people will believe you've shown yourself to be an idiot by missing a superior
choice. Neuroses may be at work in some cases, but it's arrogant to assume
that all who disagree with you are neurotic.
~~~
raganwald
Choosing to believe something about what I believe based on my expressing my
like for something is not neurotic. ASking me to explain myself or seeking
further information about my choices is certainly not neurotic. Choosing to
believe I'm an idiot because you like something else and because I didn't
attempt to intellectually bludgeon you into agreeing with me is _____, but
it's not neurotic.
But someone getting so invested in what they think that a stranger believes,
such that they have to start a flame war? And expecting that I have some sort
of obligation to their egocentricity such that I _must_ respond to their
questions?
Well, I'm not a psychologist, so the odds are strongly against this being
clinically neurotic. But it isn't for me, and I don't feel a compulsion to
play along.
p.s. Again, this isn't about people's right to believe what they want to
believe. I'm ok with people believing I'm an idiot. They may be right! But
what I'm talking about is whether I have to respond. I don't. I also don't
have to worry about it when I write such that I try to deflect criticism or
protect my reputation.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
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Google: We're Going into the Solar Mirror Business - limist
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2352748,00.asp
======
RiderOfGiraffes
See also: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=820097>
| {
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Confirmed: Delicious Founder Joshua Schachter Joins Google - pclark
http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/01/12/confirmed-delicious-founder-joshua-schachter-joins-google/
======
ojbyrne
Congrats to Joshua. One of the more amazing things early on at digg was how
open and willing he was to share advice and knowledge with what must have
looked like a competitor.
------
vaksel
If I were in his shoes, I'd do another startup. Why would you become a
corporate bitch again, after you tasted the freedom of doing your own thing?
~~~
joshu
Not every place is bad or treats their employees badly.
It is an interesting opportunity, so I'm trying it on for size.
~~~
fiaz
Congratulations Joshua!
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
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Goserv – A lightweight toolkit for web applications in Go - gotsml
http://goserv.it
======
tomohawk
Looks nice, but like net/http does not offer a way to stop the service
gracefully.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Telegram: You Can Build Your Own Powerful Communications Channel on Telegram - MoradSTR
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/how-you-can-build-your-own-powerful-communications-channel-stern/
======
MoradSTR
How I use Telegram channel (broadcast communication) to promote the local tech
industry, have delegation meet local experts, connect people and create a real
impact.
I voluntarily launched and now manage this channel with the Israeli Ministry
of Foreign Affairs.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
The most important scientific problems have yet to be solved (1897) - anarbadalov
https://thereader.mitpress.mit.edu/the-most-important-scientific-problems-have-yet-to-be-solved/
======
raymondrussell
Ramón Y Cajal was a contrarian when this was written, but he had great timing.
In the late 19th century, it was fairly popular to believe that all the laws
of physics had already been established—remaining progress would come from
improvements in experimental methods. There's a famous "physics is over" quote
misattributed to Lord Kelvin (actually said by Michelson, the guy who measured
the speed of light).
A few years after this was written, Planck proposed energy quanta. And in
1905, Einstein published his four Annus Mirabilis papers, introducing the
photoelectric effect (applying quantum), special relativity, and the mass-
energy relationship.
~~~
jhbadger
As typical with contrarians, Ramón y Cajal said some things that held up well
and others that didn't. In the same book "Advice for a Young Investigator"
that this excerpt is from he also gave his view of theorists: "Basically a
theorist is a lazy person masquerading as a diligent one because it is easier
to fashion a theory than to discover a phenomenon"!
~~~
cryptonector
How is that wrong? Clearly anyone who says that is being somewhat facetious /
comedic.
~~~
jonny_eh
> Basically a theorist is a lazy person masquerading as a diligent one
Tell that to Einstein.
~~~
behringer
Didn't we recently confirm gravitational waves by checking out a couple
interacting black holes, originally theorized by Einstein 100 years ago? I
think even Einstein would agree that it was much harder to discover it than to
theorize it.
~~~
bobajeff
There have also been serious doubts over that discovery:
[https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg24032022-600-exclusiv...](https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg24032022-600-exclusive-
grave-doubts-over-ligos-discovery-of-gravitational-waves/amp/)
~~~
nabnob
So their method for finding the signal was to calculate the signal, then
subtract it from the data and see if the residual noise looks like noise...how
is that good science? It seems like it would be too easy to make your data fit
the theory.
------
sadmann1
I do wonder if every generation picks slightly higher hanging fruits in
science will there come a time when a single human lifetime won't be enough to
digest even the most specialised domain of science in order to build upon it
~~~
6gvONxR4sf7o
Right now, science has an emphasis on causal discovery. Showing that X is a
mechanism by which Y happens. That includes finding the different X's for a Y
and finding evidence for the relationship between a given X and Y. Once you
know _how_ a thing works, that doesn't necessarily make it easy to work with
it. For example in quantum mechanics, a common phrase is "shut up and
calculate" because the mental models are all messy.
But as we all know (especially those of us who have refactored many systems),
every once in a while you find a new way of looking at a thing that makes it
all much simpler. A geometric way to look at an algebraic thing, or vice
versa. Or a unifying structure to combine disparate pieces. Or just a "wow
that was dumb" undoing of unnecessary complexity. It makes further progress
easier.
I could imagine that, as the boundaries of science get more complex, there
will be more scientists working on making the rest of it less complex.
Meanwhile, maybe we get smarter and live longer. The calculations involved
with many areas of modern science have already outpaced what we can do by
hand, but we invented computers, so I can take the mean of a zillion numbers
without much effort and spend my time elsewhere.
And in med school, apparently they say "half of what we teach you will be
false, but we don't know which half." As science progresses, you don't just
add, you prune too.
~~~
bordercases
> Meanwhile, maybe we get smarter and live longer. The calculations involved
> with many areas of modern science have already outpaced what we can do by
> hand, but we invented computers, so I can take the mean of a zillion numbers
> without much effort and spend my time elsewhere.
With software being as slow as it is despite massive speedups, and even
_despite_ despite massive speedups, we really are still not good enough at
using our computers to their fullest capacity which still means getting
insights into complexity before crunching the numbers.
~~~
PaulDavisThe1st
Computation is not slow.
Operating systems might be slow. Applications might be slow. SaaS might be
slow.
But computation is not slow, and if you care about speed, you do computation
in a context where the aforementioned issues are not issues.
~~~
bordercases
Negate the operating environments that calculations are made in and the
operating environments are not an issue, alright.
There definitely is a lot of bloat in the software world, but even large
bioninformatics organizations have their own data-pipeline management teams to
keep these issues in spec.
------
lordnacho
Well written. One thing that I keep thinking is that even if you know the law,
there's still a lot of applications where its use is unobvious.
For instance, you might be satisfied you know how a pendulum works. Now put
another pendulum on it.
Or you think you understand gravity, because you got taught the inverse square
law. And you then get Kepler's laws. But then with three bodies, things get
really hairy.
Or you understand statics and materials. But how do we shove that into finite
elements? Not an obvious thing, and required some real investigation.
There's also completely new ways of seeing things. Who would come up with
information theory? Doesn't seem like something that would obviously be found,
despite not really requiring any physical experiment.
And then there's things like algorithm research that turn out to be really big
once there's a bit of computational power on the horizon. (Probably people
think about the algo before they can try it on a machine.)
------
breck
Impressive how timeless this is.
I would say the great problem of science right now is integrating all of the
knowledge there is.
It's time scientists stopped publishing dumb weakly connected PDFs, and start
switching to a GitHub like pull request model.
We could build a single strongly typed peer-reviewed repo of all of the
world's scientific information, complete with definitions, experiment
protocols and data, and make it universally downloadable and usable by all.
~~~
hyperbovine
Ah yes, the old everything-is-broken-and-software-engineering-has-all-the-
answers trope.
~~~
ibeckermayer
Who claimed software engineering has all the answers? OP is proposing a tool
that could be used to help integrate scientific knowledge better than the
disintegrated system of PDF’s that exists, what’s wrong with that?
------
luhn
(1897)
An excerpt from _Advice for a Young Investigator_.
[https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/437689.Advice_for_a_Youn...](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/437689.Advice_for_a_Young_Investigator)
------
scottlocklin
One of the great Spanish thinkers, criminally underrated in Anglo countries.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santiago_Ram%C3%B3n_y_Cajal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santiago_Ram%C3%B3n_y_Cajal)
~~~
enriquto
I'd rather say he's criminally underrated in Spain.
It is definitely easier to hear casually about Ramon y Cajal in "anglo
countries" than in Spain. For example, I have spent my childhood in the
spanish state, and I first heard about Ramon y Cajal during the first
conference that I attended, in Switzerland, from a lovely presentation by an
English professor.
One of the dramatically few spanish first-rate scientists, and he's not a
household name. Very, very sad state of affairs.
~~~
yiyus
I do not know what you are talking about. We study Ramón y Cajal in school,
the most important grants in Spain are named after him, there is a Ramon y
Cajal square or street in every city... Even the most ignorant Spaniard knows
him and will tell you that he is our most respected scientist from all time.
Science, in general, is criminally underrated in Spain, but Ramón y Cajal is
literally the household name.
------
commandlinefan
Well I definitely didn't expect to see this at the end:
_Santiago Ramón y Cajal (1852 – 1934)_
But I believe he's probably still right in 2020.
------
anarbadalov
Just a quick note to the moderators: thanks for adding (1897) to the title and
clearing up the confusion that i caused! i assumed Ramon y Cajal was more of a
household name.
------
AmericanChopper
> It is nevertheless true that if we arrived on the scene too late for certain
> problems, we were also born too early to help solve others.
I think this could be used to describe almost any point in history though. The
greatest discoveries in science have always required massive breakthroughs in
thinking, that typically defy conventional intuition. Perhaps there are some
rare moments in time following a major discovery where the fruitful areas of
inquiry seem obvious. But “I don’t even know where to start looking for the
next major scientific discovery” or “this hypothesis might be wrong and we
could potentially spend the rest of time investigating it” seems to be the
default state of trying to make major breakthroughs in science.
------
grabbalacious
What a contrast with Albert A. Michelson, speaking in 1894:
> _most of the grand underlying principles have been firmly established and
> that further advances are to be sought chiefly in the rigorous application
> of these principles to all the phenomena which come under our notice. It is
> here that the science of measurement shows its importance — where
> quantitative work is more to be desired than qualitative work. An eminent
> physicist remarked that the future truths of physical science are to be
> looked for in the sixth place of decimals_.
------
yters
Most of reality is inexplicable according to modern science. So, there are
probably vast quantities of discoveries to still be made.
------
tom-thistime
The author of this essay died in 1934.
~~~
Animats
Right. _" Who, a few short years ago, would have suspected that light and heat
still held scientific secrets in reserve? Nevertheless, we now have argon in
the atmosphere, the x-rays of Roentgen, and the radium of the Curies, all of
which illustrate the inadequacy of our former methods, and the prematurity of
our former syntheses."_ That had to be from the early 20th century.
The problems today are either in areas where complexity is the limiting
factor, like biology, or beyond current experimental reach, like string theory
and dark matter. The complexity problem can probably be overcome with computer
assistance. Experimental reach is harder.
------
webdva
Very inspiring rhetoric. Should encourage any curious soul that seeks to
expand the knowledge base.
------
rygh
May be it's yet to be discovered
------
bingeworthy
Agreed. Thanks, dude.
------
nxpnsv
Well, if they were solved, then they would not be regarded as problems...
------
LastZactionHero
This is a great rebuttal to about 90% of HN comments.
------
deith
Ramón and Cajal, two great thinkers.
~~~
gfiorav
If this was a joke, it's a pretty good one
~~~
deith
It's probably one of the most widely known jokes in Spain.
------
mtnGoat
Why come up with new ideas and solve hard problems when you can just be the
User for X and become a unicorn based no nothing but smoke, mirrors and clever
accounting like WeWork?
~~~
dang
" _Eschew flamebait. Don 't introduce flamewar topics unless you have
something genuinely new to say. Avoid unrelated controversies and generic
tangents._"
[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)
~~~
mtnGoat
strange how this is selectively enforced around here. :x
~~~
dang
It always feels that the mods are against you. The other side feels the same
way.
[https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...](https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=by%3Adang%20%22always%20feels%22&sort=byDate&type=comment)
It's true that moderation isn't consistent, but that's not because it's
selective in the way you imply. Rather, it's because we can't come close to
reading everything, and can't moderate what we don't see. If you notice a post
that breaks the site guidelines and hasn't been moderated, the likeliest
explanation is that we haven't seen it yet.
[https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...](https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=by%3Adang%20likeliest&sort=byDate&type=comment)
------
carapace
ORT (Only Read Title) but uh...
WTF is gravity? Why is gravitational mass and intertial mass identical (in all
known situations)?
Do we orbit the Sun or the image of the Sun? In other words, what's the
_speed_ of gravity?
_Can we control gravity?_
\- - - -
What is subjectivity?
Why is "it" always _now?_
"You" and "now" are synonyms, why?
\- - - -
WTF is up w/ the structure and dynamics of the Solar System? ( 97.77° axial
tilt!? Go home Uranus you're drunk!)
\- - - -
QM and Relativity, chocolate and peanut butter?
Or the Universe is messing with us and actually _is_ describable by multiple
_irreconcilable_ models?
~~~
earenndil
> WTF is gravity?
That's metaphysics, not science.
> Do we orbit the Sun or the image of the Sun? In other words, what's the
> speed of gravity?
The image. Speed of gravity is the same as the speed of light.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Why learning Haskell/Python makes you a worse programmer - fogus
http://lukeplant.me.uk/blog/posts/why-learning-haskell-python-makes-you-a-worse-programmer/
======
chris_j
Since RiderOfGiraffes is not around any more, I'll point out that this has
been on HN a couple of times before, with some interesting discussion:
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1883663>
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=407796>
I'm still sympathetic to the author's plight because my experiences have been
similar. After learning Python and Haskell (and Clojure) and then returning to
Java, I find myself missing features like first class functions and list
comprehensions and so on. It's hard coming to terms with the fact that you're
back in Blub and having to cram your thinking back into that box. It isn't so
much becoming a _worse_ programmer as becoming a more _frustrated_ programmer.
------
joshfinnie
Very linkbaity title. First sentence gets to the real point of the article:
>>I've found, contrary to what you sometimes read,
that learning Python and Haskell has not improved
my programming using other languages.
This is more about his personal experience than any hard facts about Haskell
or Python making the general population a worse programmer.
~~~
bioinformatics
And the second
>I find I think in Python, and even in Haskell to some extent, even though I
have used Haskell very little.
demotivates you to read the rest.
------
wcoenen
This is a post from 2006. The example problem with C# no longer exists; it can
currently be written much like the author desired:
string.Join("\n", mylist.Select(x => x.Description).Where(description =>
description != ""));
------
alimbada
This post is 5 years old... C# is now at version 4 and has a boatload of
functional features.
------
JCB_K
If I understand this well, the writer is just being extremely sarcastic, and
is looking for a job where he can write in something else than C#.
~~~
stonemetal
Also note that it is from 2006. My first thought at his attempt to
functionally program in C# was "Were is the LINQ?" but the article is older
than that.
He may be being sarcastic but in so far as Haskell idioms don't work in
imperative languages he is right, especially as it applies to the large
framework languages. The whole standard library (and as he calls out the
ASP.net framework) expects a certain kind of mentality that isn't FP centric.
The amount of FPisms that you can bring to an ASP.net app are few and far
between. On a low level, C# (at least at that time) had very poor FP support.
On the High level design side ASP.net dictates part of your design and does it
in a somewhat FP hostile way.
------
zwieback
Oh no, do we have to listen to a new generation of frustrated developers
rehashing the tired old arguments made by frustrated Lispers?
~~~
raganwald
"Those who do not learn from history, are doomed to repeat it."--
misappropriated from George Santayana.
Without a solitary shred of evidence to support my conjecture, I claim that
the problem is that programmers are given a smattering of information about
how to use some tools, but are not taught about the progression of tools over
time. The history of programming languages is a history of attempts to solve
various problems and a history of various design trade-offs.
Deprived of this basic grounding, young programmers are constantly
rediscovering the good and the bad, and the Internet gives us a constant
stream of their revelatory essays, all of which can be summarized as "Babies
vs. Bathwater: Fight!"
------
TheSOB88
Ignorance is bliss.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Association of Type 2 Diabetes with Titanium Dioxide Crystals in the Pancreas - mmastrac
https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.chemrestox.8b00047
======
felixbraun
Since non-diabetics accumulate close to zero Titanium Dioxide and it is
ubiquitous in our 'modern' environment, it seems more likely that diabetics
have for some reason difficulties clearing these crystals?
~~~
amvalo
My first thought -- diabetes affects kidney function. The question is whether
the same is found in type I diabetics.
~~~
larkost
Type I diabetes is an inability of the pancreas to produce insulin. In typical
type II diabetes it is not a problem of production, but rather the uptake of
the insulin is inhibited. Basically the body becomes resistant to the insulin
signal.
~~~
amvalo
My point was that high blood sugar damages the kidneys, so if TiO2 in kidneys
is an effect rather than cause of diabetes, we would see it in both type I and
type II.
------
LinuxBender
I can't find the article, but wasn't there also a doctor that was recently
curing people (permanently) of type 2 by essentially having them fast for a
dangerously long time and thus purging all the fat from their pancreas?
The theory they were proving out was that the fat built up in the pancreas was
tricking their body into seeing the wrong amounts of insulin.
[ edit ] Adding link for Dr. Fung's research [1] as mentioned in a reply by
SteveCoast
[1] - [https://idmprogram.com/fatty-
pancreas-t2d-9/](https://idmprogram.com/fatty-pancreas-t2d-9/)
~~~
SteveCoast
Dr Fung has been doing this for a long time, and it's not dangerous at all. My
longest fast was for 14 days just water, though I wasn't diabetic.
Fung has lots of articles on Medium and /r/fasting is a great resource. Fung
and also Taubes books are great and point out he maddening simplicity, that
diabetes is high insulin is high sugar intake and that we treat it with...
higher insulin. It's insanity, and because we can't see the wood for the trees
we have smart people go study things like how much titanium you have in your
body rather than solving the actual problem of carb intake.
~~~
LinuxBender
Thanks for jogging my memory. The only reason I mention dangerous is that
fasting can in fact be very dangerous depending on a persons physiology and
preexisting conditions. That said, it is much less dangerous than having T2D.
So the benefits may outweigh the risks in this case.
~~~
RobertRoberts
Everything has a risk though, not even an exaggeration, actions or inactions.
The problem with disucssing fasting is that it's not widely supported in
modern western health, so there's little discussion or common knowledge about
how to recognize problems during fasting.
What is great about problems during fasting though, generally speaking, to
solve them is as easy as breaking the fast.
There are fasting clinics where doctors monitor the urine output from patients
to determine if their body is expelling too many toxins at one time, and help
control the fast.
~~~
LinuxBender
I completely agree and having your blood and stool checked by a doctor or a
lab is certainly a good mitigating control, especially for people that have
preexisting issues such as; but not limited to, kidney or liver diseases.
------
vfc1
It looks it's a common ingredient for candy:
[http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/scienceandfood/2016/04/12/...](http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/scienceandfood/2016/04/12/titanium-
dioxide-in-food/#.Wyt6ZlOFN60) \- "Titanium dioxide nanoparticles (TiO2) are
widely used as a food additive and are consumed by millions of consumers on a
daily basis, as manufacturers incorporate it into their food products. "
~~~
andai
Worse, it's in most toothpaste.
> Titanium dioxide found to cause pre-cancerous growths in 40% of mice
[https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/toothpaste-
additi...](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/toothpaste-
additive-e171-titanium-dioxide-food-products-cancer-cause-
scientists-a7541956.html)
~~~
theothermkn
> It is unclear whether the product might have a similar effect in people, and
> the scientists said their findings “cannot be extrapolated to humans”.
Cinnamon caused some kind of liver dysfunction (cancer, IIRC) in mice. I turns
out that mice lacked a metabolic pathway for processing a byproduct of the
breakdown of Cinnamon, a pathway that humans possess. Mouse models aren't
perfect, so it's probably premature to use the value-laden word "worse" in
relation to TiO2 in toothpaste.
~~~
man2525
Ceylon or Cassia cinnamon?
~~~
VLM
He's talking about cassia, and the specific substance is coumarin which has a
fairly high fatal dosage for humans. Note that cinnamaldehyde tastes really
good and has nothing to do with coumarin if the chemical processing is done
correctly.
Anyway in rodents at very low doses their liver converts it to some nasty
epoxide which slowly gives rodents liver cancer; not an issue for primates who
an only die from acute liver toxicity.
This was a "thing" generations ago, leading to endless old wives tale type
advice about cinnamon "repelling and killing mice" which actually doesn't work
because its too bitter if dusted around in pure form.
If you're bored its interesting to research cinnamon-flavored liquors, the
more "natural and organic", at least if it uses cassia for flavor, the higher
the poisonous coumarin content and in contrast the more processed refined pure
cinnamaldehyde is essentially non-poisonous (lethal dose for a human would be
about half a liter of the concentrated oil, extrapolating from animal studies,
figure a percent or two of total body mass). From memory the LD50 of common
table salt is about 10% lower than the LD50 of cinnamaldehyde, of course in a
cinnamon flavored liquor the ethanol would kill a consumer long before the
cinnamaldehyde would be an issue.
------
Geee
It's relevant that France just set a ban for Titanium Dioxide in food
products: [https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/05/18/france-
ban-e171-...](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/05/18/france-
ban-e171-additive-found-sweets-pastries-may-pose-cancer/)
------
dvh
Sample size: 8
~~~
victor106
The authors acknowledge this.
From the conclusion:-
“Being a pilot study, it requires sufficient expansion of sample sizes for
statistical analysis as well as blinded studies.”
~~~
ams6110
Yeah, it's probably worthy of further research, but (nonprofessional opinion)
my view is that obesity trends are much more likely the driver for increases
in type II diabetes.
~~~
taeric
This is ignoring that there could be a feedback link between them. If there is
a chemical imbalance that could lead to type 2, it probably does so by
tricking the body to consume more. Such that the two problems could easily be
linked.
------
pknopf
A friend tested me a while back and my bloog sugar was over 400.
I changed my life habbits completely.
I just got back from the doctor and my A1Cs are now 4.8!
I'm so excited!
~~~
harigov
What sort of changes? I was under the impression that you know when your blood
sugar levels are so high. Did you lose any weight?
~~~
gebeeson
I've never been able to tell when my blood sugar was high or normal just by
how I feel alone.
~~~
terminalcommand
To a certain level you might not feel if your blood sugar is high or normal.
But after 250 mg/dl, especially at 400 mg/dl you'll feel it. The most obvious
symptom is fatigue and thirst, no matter how much you sleep you will feel
exhausted all the time. You will want to drink a lot of water, you will
urinate frequently. Your eyes will start to hurt. After being high for some
time, your vision might get blurry, your eyes dry, you'll start vomiting.
Also you could smell your urine, if it stinks like ammonia, your blood sugar
levels are high.
If your blood sugar levels are normal you feel healthy.
I've been a T1 since I was 10 and this is my experience. The real problem is
not noticing highs but noticing lows. Because low blood sugar is much more
threatening than highs for the short term.
------
rhacker
I might be remembering things wrong, but doesn't a lot of chewing gum have
Titanium Dioxide as its whitening agent for teeth?
~~~
FrozenVoid
Titanium Dioxide is used practically everywhere. Its the "white coloring" in
paint, food,skincare, medicine,plastics,paper, coatings,inks,etc.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanium_dioxide](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanium_dioxide)
~~~
ratacat
It's also widely used in milk, to cover up the blue color of milk from
industrial milk production facilities where thousands of animals are locked up
in big metal sheds with poor quality food.
Strangely, they don't have to list the titanium dioxide in the ingredients.
~~~
refurb
Milk is naturally blue. It’s the fat emulsion that covers it up. That’s why
skim milk has a blue tinge.
~~~
delian66
Milk is in fact white. Source: grew up on a farm.
~~~
_red
Actually, raw milk has an ivory / yellow tint (depending how much grass the
cows have eaten vs hay). Grain and soy feeding tends to produce white milk
however.
Holding up a glass of grass fed cow milk to store bought milk really shows the
difference. The store bought milk suddenly looks bleached white, like liquid
paper.
------
kwhitefoot
> it constitutes the dominant light-scattering, that is, “white” component of
> indoor wall paints, drinks, foods, toothpastes, medications, cosmetics,
> paper, and plastics.
I understand why TiO2 is used in paint and even in cosmetics but why should it
be in anything that is eaten or in medicines? None of that needs to be shining
white.
------
RobertRoberts
Just saw this, may be relevant:
[https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/20/diabetes-defeated-by-diet-
ne...](https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/20/diabetes-defeated-by-diet-new-fresh-
food-prescriptions-beat-drugs.html)
------
Animats
They should try testing NASA employees. NASA loves titanium dioxide white
paint.
~~~
londons_explore
Isn't nearly all paint mostly titanium dioxide?
~~~
fredley
Any opaque, non-black (or very dark) paint, yes. You can add other pigments to
paint, but if you want that paint to be opaque rather than translucent, you
need to add titanium dioxide (or something that'll have the same effect).
~~~
ams6110
Right -- previously lead carbonate was used, until the problems with that were
understood.
------
Aloha
this would only account for one form of Type II diabetes.
It doesnt account for insulin resistance or the other issues found with it -
many people who are type II have normal insulin levels
~~~
jazoom
I'm a doctor and would say I'm quite familiar with T2DM, but I'm confused
about what you're saying.
~~~
super_mario
I think the OP is trying to argue that if TiO2 causes T2DM (by modulating
production of insulin in the beta cells), it does not account for peripheral
insulin resistance that is also present in T2DM.
So, it could be that T2DM patients simply don't clear TiO2 from their pancreas
as well as non T2DM patients (perhaps impaired kidney function).
On another hand TiO2 is a "magnet" for other heavy metals. Researches are
proposing using it in water filters to filter out other heavy metals because
it attracts them so much. Consequently, having it accumulate in your tissue
can't be good for long term health.
------
jey
Cool early stage work, but why is it noteworthy enough to be here? Has it even
been replicated?
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Cold calling for my startup and how I learned to embrace the challenge - golmansax
https://hackernoon.com/cold-calling-for-my-startup-and-how-i-learned-to-embrace-the-challenge-31f16728de48
======
plinkplonk
I hate _getting_ cold calls. So I avoid doing it to other people.
Yes that makes me less of a salesman. So be it.
Tangent: In India you can report unsolicited sales calls to a central
(government) authority, where you can sign up to get on a "Do Not Disturb"
list, and get any sales caller who ignores this fined, and eventually get his
number disconnected etc.
The system isn't perfect, and there are some impressive hacks to bypass it,
but the situation now is _much_ better than before these regulations existed.
Where one used to get multiple spammers a day, now weeks and months can go by
before getting one (who I promptly report). My number must be on some shared
"cranky idiot who hates cold callers" list, I almost never get these calls
now.
A minister was interrupted in parliament while presenting the annual national
budget (iirc) by someone who wanted to sell him a credit card(!), which led to
this regulation.
And it is a godsend. Cold callers should all burn in hellfire (imo)
~~~
sremani
Are you an entrepreneur? Have you built a business? When things are done to
extreme sure.. the slimy salesman or the spammy robo-calls are a nuisance.
Take a list of the world's 400 billionaires and ask them who has NOT Cold-
Called?
My guess is its less than 10. Or to put it another may, most successful people
Cold-called, their "heros" or experts in their field or successful people in
town etc.
So I disagree the way you put cold-calling.
If you want to start a business, I strongly suggest you to change you attitude
towards Sales. Unfortunately, Engineers have this unjustified hate towards
Sales, not every sales pitch or call is unethical or pushy.
~~~
Nullabillity
Yes, all cold calling is horrible and unethical. Whether or not it works is
besides the point.
~~~
gnicholas
This is an interesting perspective. I agree that some types of cold-calling
are terrible, like if you sell credit cards and just randomly call anyone who
might want a credit card. This is untargeted, and if everyone who sold
general-purpose goods did it, we'd all be inundated.
In the B2B context, things seem a little different, especially for startups
who have products that are not known. If you work in a particular field and
someone calls you to tell you about their new product that is relevant to your
company and your specific role, that seems much less terrible than the
untargeted calling described above. And in some cases, you may actually be
glad that you were called. I don't think it's fair to say that "all cold
calling is horrible and unethical", since it can be done in very targeted
ways. And small startups in particular (who are here on HN) often try to cold-
call in as targeted a way as possible—because when you're spending CEO time on
the phone, you're very sensitive to wasting anyone's time.
At the end of the day, it comes down to balancing the benefits to people who
are glad you called and the detriment to people whose time you wasted. If
you're not targeted, you're likely a net negative to society. If you're very
targeted (as many small startups are), there's a much greater chance you're a
net positive.
------
EtDybNuvCu
If you cold-call me, I will spend the first few minutes feeding you false
information. I will deliberately drag out the process, and at about 12min into
the call, I will confess that I've been faking everything. At this point, I
will attempt to tilt you so that you lose your temper and start cursing at me.
On a really good day, you'll be so angry that your manager will have to come
onto the call. I will feed them a few minutes of fake information, then
attempt to tilt them as well. On the best days, you and your manager will sit
around a reverse phone book and dox me, looking to find ways to intimidate or
control me while I laugh and attempt to keep you on the line. My record is
52min, lasting over multiple phone calls, ending in a dramatic reading of a
maths paper over the phone to a speakerphone consisting of three levels of
management.
I want your business to fail if you cold-call.
~~~
goatherders
Lol. You do realize that you are wasting your time, not mine?
My business succeeds BECAUSE of cold calls. So your drop in the ocean matters
not.
~~~
michael_h
How many cold calls can you make per day?
What if they're 52 minutes long?
------
gnicholas
One useful tip I got from a friend in sales: open the call with an offer to
set up a call at a more convenient time. It seems strange to immediately ask
for another call, but it is really helpful in showing that you're
friendly/flexible, and you recognize that the person you're calling is busy.
About 30% of the time, the person was happy to chat in the moment (they had
chosen to answer a call from an unknown number, after all). And the rest of
the time, you benefit from setting up a time that is more convenient for them.
Some of the time you end up never having the later call—but it seems this
happens where there wasn't a great fit to begin with, so it actually saves you
time talking to an unlikely lead.
~~~
ftio
This is a great technique.
1\. Ask if they have 30 seconds to chat.
2\. If they say no, ask for another time that works better. People are polite,
so many will not say no. Schedule this time immediately and have them confirm
on the calendar right away.
3\. If they say yes, immediately start asking them empathetic questions that
demonstrate knowledge of their problems, followed by, "Does any of this
resonate with you?"
~~~
michael_h
Being honest, what I would do: schedule a time for the call back and make sure
to not pick up the phone at that time.
------
overcast
Cold calls like will likely get forwarded to our internal extension that
relays to "Lenny". The longest we've had someone on the line talking to the
bot is currently at 8:37 on the leaderboard. :D
~~~
goatherders
I don't understand this. Say you're not interested and move on. Being a dick
to someone trying to earn a living says a lot about your character. And I
promise, the sales rep doesn't care. Their job is dials and talk time. Your
bot is helping them reach their daily quota.
~~~
908087
Cold calling people you have no previous relationship with is a dick move.
Lenny just helps some people return the favor.
419 scammers are "just trying to earn a living" too.
~~~
goatherders
I call people I don't know all the time because I have something valuable to
offer and want to share that with them. It's no different than any form of
advertising....its just more direct. Put another way, if I could call you
today and offer you a service or product that solved a big problem you have
for a fair renumeration you would be thankful.
~~~
908087
Other forms of advertising don't make my office phone ring while I'm in the
middle of something, or make my home phone ring while I'm eating dinner to
ambush me. Cold calling makes e-mail spammers look polite by comparison.
Also, despite the fact that I despise and block everything the internet ad
industry throws at me, that industry arguably provides something in return for
the trouble of putting up with their bullshit. Cold calling provides me with
absolutely nothing beyond a rude interruption of my day at best.
I don't care what you're offering, because I subconsciously tag anything
associated with cold calling as a scam and file it in the same mental folder
as that "free cruise" I "won".
------
goatherders
Cold calling is wildly effective. It just takes making more than 2 calls a
week. I tell my team "get 100 on the phone without selling something and I'll
give you $100" been doing that for years and have never paid a rep the $100.
~~~
MatthewRJones
Eh... I'm not sure about "wildly effective." A few years ago I started a
business and cold called for several hours each day for the first four months.
I didn't make a single sale, and I'm told I have an excellent phone presence.
What succeeded for me was SEO, direct mail, and email campaigns. I still had
to do sales pitches, but I was working off warm leads from people that
actually wanted to hear from me.
I'm not saying cold calling doesn't work. I'm saying it's an inefficient use
of time. Yes, some people will buy, but there are far more efficient ways of
reaching potential clients.
~~~
goatherders
It wasn't wildly effective for you, over four months, for your product/service
to the specific people you called at the price you offered. A valid data point
for sure, but far from empirical.
~~~
ecdavis
No true cold caller.
------
whataretensors
Cold calling is not for me. I hate even answering email or inbound
communication.
One thing I've realized working on my own is that you can do anything you
want. You don't have to do the thing you hate the most to make progress. It
will feel draining, feel like more work, and be less productive than focusing
on where you are strong.
~~~
WalterGR
You've made a living being self-employed and by doing exactly what you want to
do?
Is that it?
How do you accomplish that without communicating with others?
~~~
whataretensors
Yes. I find projects that do not require much human communication. Some is
fine.
You always have to do things you don't like when building a business. I'm just
saying don't make something you don't like part of your scaling strategy.
------
908087
Cold calling me is a guaranteed way to prevent yourself from ever getting my
business, and I know I'm not alone in that. My subconscious automatically tags
companies that cold call as scams.
~~~
52-6F-62
I have to say I fall into this bucket.
Most of the cold calls I get are, in fact, scams— so to save myself agony and
time-out-of-life, that's the category it goes into for me.
\--
Two shorts:
Number one:
I regularly get rotating numbers calling from scam credit collection agencies
(second-tier, purchased bad loans allegedly). I regularly now get called for
somebody who isn't me, and they're always threatening. Though my favourite was
receiving a threatening call once about 'urgent business matters' that
pertained to me owing a significant amount of money in outstanding debt to the
company I currently work for, and hold accounts with. Ridiculous. That's the
camp cold calls fall under for me.
Number two, and so much more infuriating:
a major telecom company held a sales campaign in the lobby of my _apartment
building_. For a week! Every day when I arrived home I would be confronted by
two or three sales people to try and convince me to change internet providers.
And god they were persistent. Even worse, two of the four elevators were down
so most of the people in the building were sitting ducks who couldn't very
well escape. Couldn't even deal with the doorman to pick up a package without
one sidling up to try and sell to me while I was in a conversation.
Just thinking about it grinds me. If I need something, I will look to buy it.
If I recognize inefficiency in my day or workflow or whatever—I will pursue a
solution. If I am unhappy with how much I'm paying for internet or some other
service, I will try to find something better.
What I don't want is to be confronted and put on the spot when I'm not
actively seeking to do business.
------
lefstathiou
Cold calling is an extremely effective strategy for us. Most important lesson
I learned building our SDR program is that nobody natively likes cold calling
so to do it well, it needs to be their only job.
When I had account managers that had to do their own cold calling they greatly
underperformed. When I had someone whose only job was to cold call and book
demos which were then closed by account managers one person was getting more
meetings than all my account managers combined.
Some people don’t like getting cold calls, I personally don’t mind and the
number of people that don’t mind statistically out number the ones who do. We
have tons of data to support this. I highly recommend evaluating this as a
strategy in any B2B customer acquisition program.
~~~
alexbeloi
> the number of people that don’t mind (cold calls) statistically out number
> the ones who do. We have tons of data to support this. I highly recommend
> evaluating this as a strategy in any B2B customer acquisition program.
I don't doubt it's a good strategy, but I doubt most people actually "don't
mind". What kind of data do you have to support your claim?
If you replace "don't mind" with "tolerate", I would find it more believable.
------
maxxxxx
Cold calling can be extremely effective if you can make yourself do it. Some
years ago I did that for a few weeks to promote a piece of software I wrote
and I made a ton of interesting connections. Not just for my product but there
are a lot of small business owners who are very willing to discuss business in
general and you can gain a lot of business ideas that way. It can be very
exhausting though if you don't enjoy talking a lot or take rejection
personally.
------
rpedela
Are there any good resources on who to call and where to get phone numbers?
Obviously it should be potential customers, but should it be the CTO of the
company if it is tech product for example? And how do you get their phone
number?
~~~
goatherders
Yes. But you don't need them. You need Google, LinkedIn, a spreadsheet and
time. Calling the main line of 99% of companies will get you to the person you
are looking for. The other 1% are multibillion dollar companies that aren't
going to buy from you.
~~~
istorical
Actually, multibillion dollar companies make the best customers, because they
won't balk at a $400,000 contract, they'll expect it.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Sept 11 conspirator Moussaoui says Saudi royals backed al Qaeda - sjcsjc
http://af.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idAFKBN0L81T020150204?pageNumber=2&virtualBrandChannel=0
======
randomname2
In related news, prince Al-Waleed bin Talal just sold his stake in Fox News.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
When did “&” stop being taught alongside the alphabet? - mceachen
https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/53546/when-did-stop-being-taught-alongside-the-alphabet
======
ampersands
Uh, it never was? I didn't learn what the ampersand was until middle school.
I knew how to interpret the symbol ( _because relatives and teachers corrected
me when I mistakenly read it as a capital letter "A" when looking at
newspapers, as early as kindergarten, while trying to demonstrate my ability
to read_), but I was taught to avoid using it as part of handwriting. I knew
what to call it, and that it means "and" but was encouraged to use the plus
sign (+) if I needed to use punctuation for such purposes, although even that
was frowned upon, as improper and informal.
During middle school, we were taught to type using computers, and so learned
some of the more common symbols. While typing, shorthand was tolerated with
greater sympathy, since printed or typed writing was clearly legible, and not
subject to the harsher criticisms of penmanship, where abstract symbols might
look like childish scribbles.
I didn't develop my ability to write an ampersand by hand until high school,
when I was forced to take notes in class, and use of shorthand was acceptable,
as long as I could read my own note taking, and recite a reasonable summary of
classroom lectures if called upon. My notes never actually lived up to that
criteria but at least I could write an ampersand.
~~~
c3534l
Did you read the question? Unless you're well over 100 years old your personal
experience is irrelevant.
------
melan13
More importantly as not discussed, the '&' character also derives also from
the french word 'et' which refers to 'and' in English. Something we can call a
Norman influence.
~~~
grzm
The ampersand goes back farther than that. It comes from the Latin _et_
(unsurprisingly also meaning _and_ ) and dates to the first century AD.
~~~
NikkiA
Hence why you sometimes see 'et al' rendered as '& al' (although it doesn't
look right at all with the crappy ampersand in the font firefox is using here)
~~~
aap_
&c. is my favourite :)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Friendly Floatees - Tomte
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendly_Floatees
======
hackartist
Not only is this super interesting but it is also an example of something
negative becoming useful with the application of some creativity. A spill of
toys or nike sneakers would normally not be something to celebrate of course,
but in this case it revealed information about ocean currents and deepened our
understanding. Normally we see this type of effect in medical cases where
someone has suffered an accident or has a genetic defect which, while terrible
for that person, can still be used to learn something with is either hard or
unethical to reproduce in experimentation. For me the Floatees are a reminder
that we should work to avoid medical, ecological, societal, etc. disasters but
once they have happened there is a silver lining of learning we can gain with
the right mindset.
~~~
piyh
Also see
[https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/nuclear-bombs-
made...](https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/nuclear-bombs-made-it-
possible-to-carbon-date-human-tissue-20074710/)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blindsight](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blindsight)
Blindsight is an amazing phenomenon with its implications for intelligence
without consciousness and a great book by the same name.
~~~
anotherhuman0
_> One monkey in particular, Helen, [...] was a macaque monkey that had been
decorticated; specifically, her primary visual cortex (V1) was completely
removed, blinding her._
Wow, go humans. But I guess this is nothing in comparison with what the
commercial farming industry gets up to :(
~~~
taneq
Yeah, if that got a squick reaction then don't go looking up too much animal-
based research. We do all sorts of ugly things to animals in the name of
science. :/ But we learn all sorts of interesting and useful things from it,
so... it's one of those trolley problem things.
------
abalone
Oh cool, I have a 1997 edition of the first children's book inspired by this (
_Ducky_ , written by Eve Bunting). Wikipedia didn't know about it so I just
updated the page, giving her the due credit as the first author to publish on
this. Thanks, HN!
------
scrumbledober
reminds me of the beaches where you can find lego pirate accessories.
[https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-28367198](https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-28367198)
------
notmyname
You can play with simulations based on this data at
[http://adrift.org.au](http://adrift.org.au)
------
kevingrahl
Shouldn’t something like this be relatively simple to do with some kind of
system with mobile connectivity & GPS housed in some kind of floatable shell?
It wouldn’t have to be powered on for the whole journey (to preserve power) as
long as it pings back it’s location from time to time.
And since it’s location is known it should be possible to recover every unit
so as not to pollute the oceans with them.
Shouldn’t cost more than $200 per unit, I’d even tend to say that it’s doable
for around $100.
This would have the benefit that you can plot the exact course each unit has
taken (in real time). And for where there’s no mobile connectivity just save
the location locally and push it once connection is regained.
~~~
Cogito
"Relatively simple" is probably relative.
As others note keeping the electronics alive is going to be hard enough, but
the "ping back" is probably the hardest bit.
There is no such thing as mobile connectivity in the middle of the ocean,
because there are no cell towers, so your only bet is to use satellite
hookups.
Satellite connectivity for things like this is pretty good today, with
providers like Iridium providing low bandwidth ping services like their
Iridium Short Burst Data Service.
You would use something like the Iridium 9603[0] which idles at 34mA and uses
0.8W to send a message.
That is to say it's all definitely doable, but probably not that simple and
much much easier to do today then even 10 years ago.
[0]
[https://www.iridium.com/products/iridium-9603-3/](https://www.iridium.com/products/iridium-9603-3/)
~~~
joncrane
I would think that one hybrid option would be for the balls to enter into a
low-power mode when out of cell signal range and simply store their
coordinates once ever five minutes. Then when it washes upon the virtual
shore, it connects and uploads its track.
~~~
Cogito
What percentage of the coast lines around the world are covered by cell
towers, I wonder?
It would be an improvement over having to find them manually, but if you've
gone to the effort to engineer an electronics package capable of connecting to
a cell tower after years at sea you can probably get it to ping a satellite
regularly "for free".
------
gapeslape
This seems like a nice example of chaotic system
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory)).
~~~
romwell
Any kind of atmospheric studies (or studies of currents) would indeed be an
archetypal example of a chaotic system -- although much simpler dynamical
systems would exhibit chaotic behaviors.
------
albertzeyer
Also related:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16530506](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16530506)
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9970336](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9970336)
------
acjohnson55
Wow, I've been 10 Rubber Ducks to my daughter for weeks and had no idea it was
inspired by a real event.
------
sethbannon
What I would give to see their journey graphically represented!
~~~
mygo
I can make it happen. What would you give?
------
village-idiot
Polluting, for science!
~~~
romwell
I know you jest, but it's not like the scientists pushed the container
overboard.
So - using disasters to discover new things, for science!
My favorite example of that is still the discovery of radiotrophic fungi[1] in
Chernobyl.
It's just so _cool_ to find out about species that feed on radiation. Too bad
it takes a local-nuclear-apocalypse level of disaster for that to have
happened.
[1][https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiotrophic_fungus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiotrophic_fungus)
~~~
PhasmaFelis
When all planes were grounded after 9/11, scientists collected some really
interesting data on how airplane contrails effect the weather. (It's more than
you'd expect.) [https://globalnews.ca/news/2934513/empty-skies-
after-911-set...](https://globalnews.ca/news/2934513/empty-skies-
after-911-set-the-stage-for-an-unlikely-climate-change-experiment/)
~~~
phyller
Huh. "9/11 proves that global warming caused by vapor trails" sounds
absolutely nutty, but apparently is rather accurate.
~~~
romwell
This is offtopic, but can you _please_ post that article with this title to
/r/nottheonion? "Contrails" instead of "vapor trails" might make it even
better, but it's damn near perfect as is.
~~~
PhasmaFelis
That's actually a good idea.
Edit: Sadly they only allow recent news.
~~~
leereeves
Also, they only allow the original headlines.
------
person_of_color
Cant they use this data to find MH370?
~~~
jwfxpr
These data are about low-altitude wind and surface ocean currents. Models
based on those things are part of the toolkit being used as a matter of course
in such searches, but unless MH370 spent months floating at the surface of the
ocean, these models can't find it _per se_ , though they can offer indirect
hints.
Models of surface wind and currents were used to both predict, and trace back
the possible origins of flotsam and debris from the crash that washed
ashore[0][1] around the rim of the Indian Ocean in the following months and
years.
As a side note, the Friendly Floatees event occurred in the Pacific, with
drift around the Pacific, Arctic, and far north Atlantic oceans. MH370 was
lost over the Indian Ocean.
[0]
[https://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/08/world/australia/malaysia-...](https://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/08/world/australia/malaysia-
airlines-mh370-debris-mauritius.html)
[1] Part of my sources include personal knowledge, as I lived in Canberra and
knew employees at the Australian Transport Safety Bureau during the early
months of the search.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Show HN: New mind mapping tool for learners - havlenao
http://brainio.com
======
jnurmine
Interesting!
May I ask what, if any, features do you plan to add that supercede those of
Freeplane?
As background: whenever I need to grok a larger concept or chomp through a
large collection of material, I fire up Freeplane. (It's a fork of Freemind, a
desktop application written in Java, it's under GPL and runs fully locally,
see freeplane.org)
You already mentioned a Markdown to map input path. That is a good idea, since
often things (at least for me) begin with a small list.
Collaboration was another thing you mentioned. Does that mandate uploading the
maps to your cloud backend or can it be self-hosted? I ask because for some
people it is not an option to use "other people's computers", as the domain
being mapped can be of sensitive nature (under NDAs, or other things).
~~~
havlenao
We are working on following features right now that are gonna be included in
all plans: 1) Split view 2) Public ling sharing, embedded code 3) Kindle
highlights sync (syncing the highlighted parts of yout books directly to the
app) 4) AI for recommending online content (courses, books etc.) Free plan is
just limited by number of documents and storage because we need to cover the
server costs for cloud solution.
Right now the solution is cloud based (but with SAML SSO and access
provisioning for enterprises). It could be self-hosted it there is a demand
for that.
~~~
soulofmischief
As another daily Freeplane user, anything not self-hosted and behind a
firewall is a no-go for me. Sensitive or not, having someone over your
shoulder kills the creative juices. None of the things you mentioned except
for split view sounds like an improvement over Freeplane which is an open-
source serverless app and great for the power-user.
Perhaps a useful feature for someone like me would be the an online app where
I could import a mind map from another program and then choose from a variety
of presentation options, and be provided code for an interactive embedded mind
map in a blog or website. That would be enticing to people who aren't ready to
dump all the features they are used to, and that crowd is much more likely to
jump on to something like this than the average person.
~~~
havlenao
We believe that online collaboration is very important when building our
knowledge. When dealing with complex topics you need inputs from other people.
That’s the reason behind cloud solution that is not offered by freeplane.
------
rajesh-s
@OP pretty interesting work. Does it support markdown -> mindmap? i.e. Convert
indented text to horizontal tree something like
[this]([https://github.com/dundalek/markmap](https://github.com/dundalek/markmap))
~~~
havlenao
Yes. Based on mark down we visualise the mind map. So if you use headers,
bullet points etc. then it's converted and structured into mind map hierarchy.
------
havlenao
Here is 20 promo codes for 2-years Pro plan for free: W6F2C5 LFUUEK PD1R93
KQOH43 VH0C7G A3TLB3 5PD6UB QZ3FPH 02MT53 AFEZSZ Y9R2PA 2412RQ 39FEIO G39GWH
CZEMCX VRHNJN 8VNGLT CDJHT0 TGLB1P 7NGB9K
~~~
romseb
All gone unfortunately, but thanks for sharing.
~~~
havlenao
If anyone wants promo code, please contact us at [email protected]. We will be
glad to share it with you as the app is still in beta and we need feedback
from early adopters.
------
brainioapp
Download our desktop app or check out the cloud version. Desktop:
[https://brainio.com/#/download](https://brainio.com/#/download) Cloud:
[https://app.brainio.com](https://app.brainio.com) Mobile app (iOS, Android)
is coming later. At first I need to verify, that the solution is working for
users.
------
menacestudio
I like the simplicity but it's too buggy for me at the moment (at least the
web version using mobile). It also keeps giving an invalid state which
requires a hard refresh. It then jumbles the words and characters after a
refresh which is super annoying.
~~~
havlenao
Yeah, we recommend to use desktop app. The mobile version is still buggy right
now as it's in beta and we focused mainly on desktop version as the main
device. Nevertheless we will fix that soon.
------
mvind
Nice idea! If you dont mind sharing what technology stack have you used to
develop this?
~~~
havlenao
The core is: electron, nestjs, sharedb, mongodb, angular, codemirror, aws and
docker.
------
drumandbass
I can't believe it! I wanted this for me and my software development team for
so long! These are the mind maps Tony Buzan talked about in theory but this is
a really practical way to apply them. Thanks.
~~~
havlenao
We would love to hear your feedback ;)
------
notelonmusk
Good stuff. An in-browser demo would be neat and may drive more adoption.
~~~
havlenao
Thanks
------
kfk
Since we are on this topic, any good libraries to create diagrams? I have lots
of python functions which one day would love to make available into an visual
programming tool diagram type.
~~~
noobiemcfoob
Graphviz and pygraphviz
------
havlenao
FYI - the Free plan is limited to 10 notes/mind maps. However you can increase
that quota by inviting new users - 3 documents per invitation.
------
to-too-two
Why use this over Trello or a Google doc? Feel like I'd be paying for some
pretty markdown text.
~~~
havlenao
Because we help you to organize and store your knowledge. The brain works
better visually then verbally and that’s the reason we are combining the world
of notes and mind maps together.
------
rickdeveloper
The lack of an iPhone app is killing it for me.
~~~
havlenao
We are aware of that. Nevertheless we need to make sure that the solution is
working for users. Mobile app is in our road map for sure. So far you can use
the cloud version (app.brainio.com) even on your mobile (Chrome, Safari,
Firefox).
------
tomerbd
Are you going to have a desktop downloaded app with one time payment no
subscription with unlimited features?
~~~
havlenao
It’s not in our road map right now but if there is a demand for that we can
add that. We are mainly focused on subscription based model as we provide
cloud solution (so there are server and computing costs we need to cover).
However if you do not need the app for some time you can cancel the
subscription (we will return your money for the rest of the mont/year) and you
can still access your files. Only thing is that you can edit just the number
of documents that you have in free plan (10 by default but you can increase
the quota by inviting people - 3 documents per invitation), other documents
are read only and you can’t edit them until you start the subscription or
increase your free quota of documents.
------
coolvision
Concept is nice. Name is too tacky, just can't take it seriously.
~~~
ondrejv1
Thanks for the feedback
~~~
carrozo
I think it’s catchy/sticky and relevant to the value prop. Surprised it hasn’t
been used already either tbh. Tool looks great too!
~~~
havlenao
Thanks
------
havlenao
FYI - at support.brainio.com you can request new features :)
------
zyconator
Looks promising.
~~~
havlenao
Thanks.
------
gildainova
Great idea. Definitely will try that.
~~~
havlenao
Thanks.
------
havlenao
Any feedback?
~~~
stevesimmons
The examples on the homescreen simply aren't compelling.
Mindmaps get little traction imo because this first experience is usually
dreadful: Simple examples (like you show) are just as well represented by a
bulleted list. And complex examples need a really slick and intuitive UI,
otherwise they are too painful to create.
My take on it is Markdown in a private Github repo provides 90% of the
benefits and a lot of other features, with none of the worry about being
locked in to a new company whose product is immature and doesn't have an
established track record.
Finally, your posting those 20 free keys to the pro plan just reinforces in my
mind the notion that the price-features balance isn't attractive.
~~~
ondrejv1
Thanks for the feedback. The idea here is to let user take notes in mark down,
then with one click convert it to mind map to make a structure to the text.
After that collaborate with others (colleagues, friends, family...) in real
time in note or mind map mode.
~~~
Hoasi
> The idea here is to let user take notes in mark down, then with one click
> convert it to mind map to make a structure to the text.
An interesting idea, although a bit counter-intuitive: in principle, a mind
map helps you to visualize ideas better, in a way that lets you restructure
them, etc. This visual outlining process is a tool, not the end goal. You'd
expect to start with a rough diagram of idea nodes, not with a list. That
said, starting with text could be useful in some cases.
~~~
havlenao
Yeah, I agree. And the app works both way. You can start to create note or
mind-map and then switch between both modes.
------
sidcool
What's your tech stack?
~~~
havlenao
For collaboration we use a modified version of sharedb
([https://github.com/share/sharedb](https://github.com/share/sharedb)). Its
using the operational transformation algorithm
([https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operational_transformation](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operational_transformation)).
We will be publishing an article about tech stack at out blog within few days
:)
~~~
havlenao
The core is: electron, nestjs, sharedb, mongodb, angular, codemirror, aws and
docker.
------
ykevinator
Cool idea. Looks slick.
~~~
ondrejv1
Thanks
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Social From the Ground Up - Mystalic
http://developers.facebook.com/blog/post/405
======
ph0rque
Interesting... so if, say, the diaspora guys want to apply to YC, will that
create a conflict of interest?
~~~
Mystalic
Zuckerberg himself donated to Diaspora, so I don't think he'd care.
You're not going to see a startup get accepted that is essentially a
competitor to Facebook -- it's too late for that. Even if it were, this
partnership would give them the chance to know about the startup and acquire
it long before it becomes a threat.
~~~
smokinn
_You're not going to see a startup get accepted that is essentially a
competitor to Facebook -- it's too late for that._
Really? In the recent video of Scoble interviewing pg pg mentioned that yc
funded a privacy-oriented social network company that failed.
So I don't think a facebook competitor is out of the realm of yc funding.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: My Netflix got hacked – I found out who sold my credentials. What now? - dutchbrit
So, my Netflix account got hacked. Some of the profiles in my account were removed so I lost quite a bit of information on where I was with certain series. Anyway, with a bit of 'research' I managed to track down who sold my login information (Name & address). What's the best thing to do with this information?<p>Ps. I live in The Netherlands. Person who sold my credentails lives in The Netherlands too.
======
scrumper
I apologize if this is a stupid suggestion, but have you tried the Dutch
police? Very probably they have a cybercrime division, and (perhaps less
probably) your thief may be part of a wider ring, or a prolific offender who's
currently under investigation.
Other than losing your place in your various series, have you suffered any
other loss or harm as a result of your account breach?
~~~
dutchbrit
Definitely not a stupid suggestion - I haven't contacted the police yet, no. I
was stuck between contacting this person directly to give him a good scare
(maybe he'd reconsider what he's doing) or contacting the police, or passing
on the info directly to Netflix.
~~~
teh_klev
If it was me I'd contact both the police and Netflix. Let them give this
person a good scare. Doing that yourself might have unintended consequences
such as acts of violence against you or your property.
~~~
hoopism
I am not sure Netflix would give a crap...
They'd want you to change your password to prevent it... but you're supplying
them with a random name and address... pretty sure they aren't interested
taking it on faith that that person is responsible and then attempting any
intervention.
I would also be fearful of living in any city where Netflix theft is handled
with any serious police resources.
------
hoopism
Hacking a netflix account just seems odd... to what end?
And if you do get credentials, why are you then deleting accounts? Locking the
person out is no use... they'll just cancel. Presumably you don't have 8 bucks
a month to have your own... so you're better off not making any changes and
just enjoying.
So confused.
~~~
patio11
_Hacking a netflix account just seems odd... to what end?_
They're sold to people at a discount relative to Netflix's standard pricing --
e.g. $20 (or BTC equivalent) for 1 year of service. The customers don't always
understand that they're paying a thief/fence for stolen goods.
~~~
jordsmi
Not even that.. You can buy netflix logins for $2 a piece
~~~
hoopism
Looked into this because I have never heard of it.
Based on some forums it appears that often stolen credit cards are used to buy
redeemable codes. Those codes are then sold for far less... Basically washing
the stolen CCs.
Hacking individual accounts seems much more difficult / less rewarding
financially.
~~~
jordsmi
People sell accounts that are from phishers and botnets. Which is mostly less
work than using stolen CCs
You can buy the accounts for $2 or you can pay $20 for unlimited accounts.
They sell programs that you click a button and it just gives you another
hacked account from their database.
------
mind_heist
dutchbrit - Just before things blow up ; it might be useful to recollect what
other services use the same username / password ( and fix them all as well ).
Mails / Banking / Wealth Management ( like personal capital , wealth front ,
Mint etc ) and Money Transfer ( Western Union etc) , online shopping accounts
that have saved information of your credit card - And Change the password for
all of those too.
If you are a programmer - make sure no one logged into any of your AWS ( or
any such public cloud accounts) and generated another pair of keys. You might
not realize anything now , but the attack might come when you totally dont
expect it. They might spin up instances and have a few 1000 $ swiped on your
card. ( Amazon will still charge you in these scenarios )
~~~
dutchbrit
Thanks - it was a password I stopped using a while ago and never used for
anything important - only billable thing it was linked to was Netflix.
------
logn
I disagree with every commenter here. At most, notify Netflix. Why make a
mountain out of a mole hill? You lost some viewing history and having your
personal account invaded is quite unsettling. But it's just a movie watching
service. Nothing was stolen and no one was hurt.
This reminds me of a joke in a Simpson's episode, "I thumb through your
magazines"
[https://www.tumblr.com/search/i%20thumb%20through%20your%20m...](https://www.tumblr.com/search/i%20thumb%20through%20your%20magazines)
------
pbhjpbhj
The "research" was completely legal, right. Not involving accessing or using
computers you didn't have explicit access to access? If not then you'll
probably be considered as guilty as the cracker you were chasing if
Netherlands has something akin to the UK Computer Misuse Act.
I'd hold off contacting the EC3 if I were you.
~~~
dutchbrit
My research was perfectly legal, yes. I have passed on the information to
Netflix.
------
gnu8
Go to his house and punch him in his goddamn face.
------
mind_heist
You mentioned that they got rid of a lot of profile information ( for all we
know, that person might simply be interested in having you Memento'ed ) (ie)
Just delete all you stuff ( mails , foursquare checkins , instagram pics ,
facebook posts , last.fm scrobbles , open table reservations , evernote saved
articles , pocket saved articles ).
This is not just a loss of your netflix password . It probably leaked a ton of
information about you , your password pattern ! I bet you have the same
password for atleast a few more services. You have to protect them .
~~~
dutchbrit
I have 5 profiles on netflix - only the 2 last ones were changed - not sure if
they were renamed or if they were deleted and2 new ones were added - my own
profile was left alone.
------
jpetersonmn
Reset your password an move on. What's the point of pursuing this?
~~~
mind_heist
I think , he is now a potential subject for a larger "identity theft" \-
depending on how meticulous he has been with respect to passwords for other
services.
The password could have probably been used for Dropbox , Evernote , and even
mail(work and personal) - now making him completely vulnerable to a slew of
attacks !
This is not as simple as changing password for netflix and walking away.
~~~
jpetersonmn
If you use the same passwords for all online accounts in 2015, you should
probably have the keys to the interweb taken away.
------
relaunched
It's not going to be very satisfying, but report it to
[http://www.fbi.gov/report-threats-and-crime](http://www.fbi.gov/report-
threats-and-crime)
If there are a series of incidents connected to the same event/person, it may
get prioritized. You can also reach out to your local FBI field office
[http://www.fbi.gov/contact-us/field](http://www.fbi.gov/contact-us/field)
It sucks, but it's a juice worth the squeeze problem.
~~~
kstrauser
I don't think the FBI will do much in the Netherlands.
~~~
jacquesm
The FBI have a permanent liaison with the dutch cybercrime division. Nice guy
and quite competent.
~~~
pbhjpbhj
... and he handles Netflix account fraud?
------
henpa
For those that don't understand why someone would hack a netflix account,
search "netflix" at fiverr.com and you'd get an idea why!
[https://www.fiverr.com/search/gigs?utf8=%E2%9C%93&search_in=...](https://www.fiverr.com/search/gigs?utf8=%E2%9C%93&search_in=everywhere&query=netflix&page=1&layout=auto)
~~~
Moter8
That search... shows up nothing?
~~~
malfist
I found NoScript was interfering with it. You've got to let their site and
their site's CDN through.
------
jackmaney
Have you contacted his ISP? It probably won't result in anything more than a
sternly worded letter, but you could get lucky and get him dropped from his
ISP (and maybe effectively cut off from home internet service unless he moves?
Dunno if most ISPs in the Netherlands are effectively local monopolies like
they are in the US).
------
inovica
Could this be an isolated case and is this someone you know? Sorry to ask but
could it be someone with a grudge? How did you find out who sold it etc - I
think a bit more information would be useful
~~~
dutchbrit
I don't know him and there are 1000+ accounts affected. I notified Netflix - I
even have all the other credentials. I passed them all emails + passwords and
told them to email all the affected customers. This was 5 hours ago, and I'm
yet to receive an email. I will email these people myself within 48 hours if
Netflix hasn't done so themselves.
~~~
inovica
I'd wait before emailing everyone. You've done the right thing approaching
Netflix. Much like banks, I'm sure they will not want the publicity so
hopefully they will work with you and the affected accounts. I'm hoping that
the passwords are not in plain text though?
~~~
dutchbrit
These passwords are in plaintext.
------
thissideup
How did they get your account information?
~~~
dutchbrit
I really don't know. The only thing I know is that my email account connected
to my Netflix was not compromised. There was a big list (1000+ accounts) that
was for sale - I have this list in my possession and have passed it on to
Netflix. Waiting for them to notify customers but yet to receive an email
(notified Netflix 5 hours ago).
~~~
janesvilleseo
I wonder if my account is in that list. I got my account taken over by a
hacker close to a year ago. I had to call and get it reset. The only way I
knew for sure it was hacked was because the devices they listed contained 1
that I did not own.
I have been a 'victim' a few times ever since the LinkedIn and Adobe brecaches
awhile ago. It even happened as early as 2 weeks back. It's becuause I'm a
fool and use the same password multiple times. Now, I don't going forward.
~~~
dutchbrit
Email me - [email protected] and I will check for you.
~~~
Mandatum
Might be a better idea suggesting users search for their email address, rather
than contacting you personally.. I'm able to find the site with yours..
The information has been indexed as of 5 days ago. Credited to
"@LulZSecSecurity"
------
gouggoug
Contacting the police might be your best move here.
Out of curiosity, how did you track him/her down?
~~~
dutchbrit
By Googling his username (and I'm 100% sure I have the correct person) :)
------
skynetv2
maybe
[http://www.justice.gov/criminal/cybercrime/reporting.html](http://www.justice.gov/criminal/cybercrime/reporting.html)
and also your local police department.
~~~
dutchbrit
Sorry, I should of mentioned, I live in The Netherlands - the person that sold
my credentials does too.
~~~
dragonwriter
Well, I'm sure there are law enforcement offices that address cybercrime in
the Netherlands -- though _Netflix_ is in the US, and that might be sufficient
nexus for the US government to investigate, even if they might end up turning
over the information they gather to local authorities where the perpetrators
are for prosecution.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
IPhone 5s and iPhone 5c vs. iPhone 5 - sriharis
http://thenextweb.com/apple/2013/09/10/iphone-5s-and-iphone-5c-vs-iphone-5-what-has-apple-changed
======
coin
-1 for disabling pinchzoom on iOS devices. Ironic that it's an article comparing iOS devices.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
MarsBoard A20 SBC – The Swiss Army Knife Of SBC's - peter_d_sherman
http://www.marsboard.com/new_marsboard_a20_feature.html
======
peter_d_sherman
VGA connector MIC input (No welding Microphones) Audio Headphone Output Audio
LineIN RTL8188EU WIFI Modules USB-OTG Port Power Indicator LED USB to UART,
CP2102 WIFI Antenna USB Debug port EXT connector IR Receiver - not soldered
Ext Port - Camera CIF port USB 2.0 Host IC - FE1.1S Power button Power Supply
- 5V/2A RJ45 10/100M Ethernet 2 x USB 2.0 Host port CR1220 RTC Battery Holder
2 x USB 2.0 Host port HDMI A Type socket mrcro SD card (TF card)socket SATA
socket TV In TV Out VOL + Key, VOL - Key, ESE & Uboot Key, (from left to
right) LCD RGB Interface LCD LVDS Interface - not soldered 1GB DDR3 SDRAM &
2GB DDR3 SDRAM TX indicator LED use for debug Power Management Unit - AXP209
8GB Nand Flash & eMMC FLASH Power Indicator LED Allwinner A20 ARM Cortex A7
Dual-Core @ 1Ghz + Mali-400 GPU 10/100M Ethernet PHY - LAN8710A J1, expansion
50x2 pin 1.27MM J3, expansion 20x2 pin 1.27MM J2, expansion 50x2 pin 1.27MM ==
Swiss Army Knife
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Deis Announces High Availability Backed by Ceph - kelseyhightower
http://deis.io/deis-0-13-0-ha-data-store
======
bketelsen
The thing that's nice about Deis is that they seem to be using lots of best-
in-breed solutions to build their platform rather than falling into NIH hell.
Nice.
~~~
gabrtv
There's lots of smart teams working on these problems. We believe working with
them is better for our users and for the community as a whole. :)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: Are people working at Amazon happy? - apexkid
I have talked to many Amazon employees in India and they all generally give their reasons to work at Amazon which are good learning opportunity or competitive salary but none said that they feel truly belonged or passionate about the company. What do people around the globe think ?
======
WheelsAtLarge
You make your own happiness. Happiness is a state of mind. Simple example,
talk to a boxer, who loves boxing, about what it feels to be in the zone while
getting hit or hitting someone in a match and she will tell you that she is as
happy as she can be. Most of us think of that as the definition of hell. If
you expect someone else to care more than you then you're in trouble. No one,
not a company, not a boss, not a friend cares about you as much as you do.
Amazon is doing its best to be number one. That's the goal. Everything else is
just a byproduct of that goal. Do you think they care about your happiness
above that? The answer is no. The only one I know is happy is Jeff Bezos.
Everyone else is a question mark.
------
QuinnyPig
Amazon employs ~350K people. You're going to see a huge variance based upon
individuals, temperament, department, etc.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
How To Imagine the Tenth Dimension - kwamenum86
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6626464599825291409#docid=4490129704776663304
======
roundsquare
I really hate this video. It makes things more complicated than needed.
You can't "visualize" the fourth dimension (or I haven't met anyone who
could... and the kind of math/physics where this comes up was a common topic
for me for a while).
However, you can understand it pretty easily. Its really just another
coordinate. You can do algebra with it. If I say someone is at (3, 2, 5, 6)
and moves (1, 2, 3, 4) they are now at (4, 4, 8, 10)...
Want a 5th dimension? Add another comma/number.
People who "visualize" the higher dimensions actually visualize 2 or 3
dimensions and know how to generalize (from practice/experience/theorems).
~~~
bad_user
I think the question that most often comes up is how many dimensions are we
living in? And, are all of them equal?
Sure, on paper you can have as many dimensions as you like, just add
coordinates, but that won't help us come up with the grand unified theory, or
find other new laws of our universe, which might have pretty useful practical
applications.
Unfortunately we are limited in seeing beyond our primary senses.
~~~
roundsquare
Its a fair point... sadly I don't know the answer in any great details. What
little I know says there are 26 dimensions and they are not all equal. 3 of
space, 1 of time, and 22... others...
Actually, I wonder, when people usually ask this question, are they just using
the word dimension as a buzz word or do they know what it means?
------
Synthetase
I hate to be a spoil sort but the guy that made this doesn't know what he's
talking about. He' a musician, not a physicist or mathematician. His
proposition fails past the fourth dimension.
------
ErrantX
This is what a physicist friend sent to me a while ago:
"there is really little point in trying to graphically represent anything
beyond spacetime. Possibly 3D space with a time vector is useful (i.e. an
object representing 3D space moving along a vector) because it is still
helpful to explain the concepts. Beyond that just stick with the numbers or
you risk confusing yourself on what is being talked about"
------
herdrick
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1385736>
~~~
herdrick
And: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1385745>
~~~
cianestro
I have to disagree. Just because "results where in 5-space and up you can see
and exist in all time simultaneously" appears to be "wacky" doesn't mean it's
not possible. It's simply not part of your definition or interpretation of
your current existence, which makes the 4th dimension seem out of place.
~~~
henrikschroder
Again, there's a huge difference between 4D space and 3D spacetime. Both are
4-dimensional mathematical spaces, but the visualization is completely
different.
"Time is the fourth dimension" is the single most damaging sentence for your
understanding of time and space.
To have an n-dimensional spacetime where time is not the nth dimension makes
no sense.
~~~
bad_user
> _"Time is the fourth dimension" is the single most damaging sentence for
> your understanding of time and space._
The video didn't expand on the person living in a 2D space example ... if such
of thing would be possible, he would be able to explain the presence of a
third dimension using time (going so far as to consider time as being the
third dimension).
~~~
henrikschroder
_he would be able to explain the presence of a third dimension using time_
NO! Absolutely not! 2D spacetime does not look like 3D space at all!
In 3D space, I can take a 2D angle bracket, flip it in the third dimension,
and get its mirror image. This will seem like magic to 2D creatures. In 2D
spacetime, I can do no such thing. No matter how long I wait (i.e. move in the
third time dimension), the angle bracket won't transform into its mirror
image.
In 4D space, I can take a 3D right-hand glove, flip it in the fourth
dimension, and get a left-hand glove. This will seem like magic to 3D
creatures. In 3D spacetime I can do no such thing. No matter how long I wait,
a right-hand glove will never transform into a left-hand glove.
Do you understand?
Do you see how adding time to n-dimensional space does absolutely _nothing_ to
explain n+1 space?
~~~
rbanffy
That's because dimensions are not ordered. There is no first dimension, or
second, or third. For a flatlander, time is what he perceives as a third
dimension. Depth may be a fourth dimension. If you wanted to do the same trick
to you, you would have to flip yourself in a non-time higher dimensional
space. I think any dimensional space would do.
But it's early in the morning and I haven't had breakfast. Talk to you when my
brain joins me.
To perceive time as a dimension is useful because it helps you realize you
actually perceive four dimensions the same way a flatlander perceives three.
~~~
henrikschroder
_To perceive time as a dimension is useful_
If you want to do space-time calculations, yes.
_because it helps you realize you actually perceive four dimensions the same
way a flatlander perceives three_
Absolutely not. We perceive time as time and space as space. The concept of
spacetime does not help us understand or visualize higher dimensional spaces
at all. It only confuses the issue, which is exactly the original complaint
against the video this whole discussion is about.
Edit: One more example: Can you visualize the difference between a 3D cube
moving in time, and a 4D cube moving in the 4th dimension? If you project the
4D cube down to 3D, it will look like a double cube that twists itself inside
and out, but the 3D cube moving in time will just look like a 3D cube.
Spacetime _does not help you_ understanding 4D space.
------
cianestro
I'm glad my 4th-dimensional-former-undulating-self-blob observed this point on
the 3rd dimensional plane.
Obligatory link: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1385543>
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Jitsi Meet Security and Privacy - buovjaga
https://jitsi.org/news/security/
======
tptacek
Short answer: like Zoom, multiparty Jitsi meetings are encrypted point-to-
point, not end-to-end, and Jitsi can monitor and record your multiparty
meetings.
~~~
klaustopher
... unless you self-host the server. What you can do with jitsi, but not with
zoom.
~~~
moooo99
Then its still not end-to-end encrypted. The difference is that the only point
where its no encrypted is under your control as well. So you're right that
your meetings cannot be recorded if you host your own instance.
Unlike Zoom, Jitsi never claimed that their system was e2e encrypted which is
a huge difference if you ask me. Apparently its a technical limitation of
WebRTC, so I'd assume no webbrowser based solution can be e2e encrypted as of
now. Which is ashame since the browser compatability makes meetings with
people outside your company (or with less tech savy family members) so much
easier.
edit: misunderstoot your point
~~~
klaustopher
Thanks for the clarification!
As your edit already states, not the point I was trying to make, but still,
good to clear this up.
There was interesting discussion yesterday by the devs of mediasoup, why it is
not in webRTC yet:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22761816](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22761816)
------
twic
Are there any cryptographic and/or network designs which allow end-to-end
encryption of a group video chat without full meshing?
~~~
folmar
The point is not the crypto, but what WebRTC supports. As of now it does not.
See [https://webrtchacks.com/you-dont-have-end-to-end-
encryption-...](https://webrtchacks.com/you-dont-have-end-to-end-
encryption-e2ee/) for reference
~~~
detaro
Of course WebRTC is only a requirement if you want to be browser-based. And
even then, some solutions use WebRTC data channels for video instead (e.g.
Zoom's web version). They could do it, although you'd of course still be
trusting the server to serve you the right thing.
------
Clamydo
Wouldn't IP multicast (if it were routed by ISPs) be a perfect fit for a
scalable p2p video conference solution? Crypto wise, I guess, a room key could
be negotiated.
------
gfodor
If you are using webrtc in the browser e2e is not possible. Which is why it’s
critical you have the ability to self host such solutions.
~~~
qeternity
What are you talking about? Webrtc has mandatory encryption. The only issue is
using a simulcast middleware server. If you’re doing mesh p2p then it’s e2e.
~~~
gfodor
Obviously - I was referring to when you have a SFU, such as Jitsi and
comparable to zoom.
The concept of e2e encryption doesn’t even make sense in p2p, the fact that
direct communication between two peers is “end to end encrypted” is self
evident. It’s only when there is a central server that talking about e2e as a
concept is relevant.
~~~
qeternity
No? TURN servers relay webrtc traffic and it’s still e2e encrypted
------
m3kw9
Basically same situation technically as Zoom, without the PR fiasco
~~~
m1sta_
Except with Jitsi, the server that can potentially see the traffic is under
your own control.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
You are not our product (Apple) - plg
http://www.macrumors.com/2014/09/15/tim-cook-on-privacy/
======
orionblastar
I seem to recall a story about a man who got arrested because she asked Siri
how to hide a dead body.
[http://www.businessinsider.com/murder-suspect-asks-siri-
wher...](http://www.businessinsider.com/murder-suspect-asks-siri-where-to-
hide-dead-body-2014-8)
Somehow the Police were notified that this man asked Siri how to hide a dead
body. I'd say that Apple does collect some sort of data on the user. The gives
it to the police in case of crimes.
NSA Backdoors?
[https://prism-break.org/en/categories/os-x/](https://prism-
break.org/en/categories/os-x/) Apple, Google, and Microsoft are allegedly a
part of PRISM. Their proprietary operating systems cannot be trusted to
safeguard your personal information from the NSA. We have two free
alternatives: GNU/Linux and BSD.
[https://prism-break.org/en/categories/ios/](https://prism-
break.org/en/categories/ios/) iOS and WP are proprietary operating systems
whose source code are not available for auditing by third parties. You should
entrust neither your communications nor your data to a black box device.
That is open for debate.
~~~
DerekL
That Business Insider post about the Pedro Bravo case is false. It was widely
reported that Bravo asked Siri "I need to hide a dead body". But actually, he
just had a screen shot of Siri. It was in the cache of the Facebook app on his
iPhone.
Here's the story that BI refers to: [http://www.independent.co.uk/life-
style/gadgets-and-tech/flo...](http://www.independent.co.uk/life-
style/gadgets-and-tech/florida-man-accused-of-killing-his-roommate-asked-siri-
where-to-hide-the-body-9665437.html) The Independent eventually corrected
their story, but Business Inside didn't bother to.
Here's some other stories:
Media mistake goes viral: Pedro Bravo did not use Siri to search for spots to
hide a body
[http://www.gainesville.com/article/20140813/ARTICLES/1408197...](http://www.gainesville.com/article/20140813/ARTICLES/140819792?tc=ar)
No, Pedro Bravo Didn’t Ask Siri Where to Stash His Roommate’s Body
[http://www.wuft.org/news/2014/08/13/no-pedro-bravo-didnt-
ask...](http://www.wuft.org/news/2014/08/13/no-pedro-bravo-didnt-ask-siri-
where-to-stash-his-roomates-body/)
Murder accused DIDN'T ask Siri 'how to hide my roommate'
[http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/08/14/siri_how_can_i_dispo...](http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/08/14/siri_how_can_i_dispose_of_a_corpse/)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Regarding Reuters’s report that Apple dropped plan for encrypting iCloud backups - coloneltcb
https://daringfireball.net/2020/01/reuters_report_on_apple_dropping_plan_for_encrypted_icloud_backups
======
manicdee
For the non-US folks like me, iCloud was a non-option from the start due to
data sovereignty. I am already skating on thin ice by sharing calendars
between devices using iCloud.
The way Apple can best address the privacy issue while still providing easy
backups is to build the iCloud backup functionality into macOS or Apple TV,
with facilities to provide rsync-style backups of encrypted volumes to generic
online storage services, of which Apple can be one provider.
I want something like Western Digital’s “My Cloud” devices, but supporting
Time Machine as first class citizen (eg using rsync) not via mounting a disk
image.
~~~
pfranz
In general, I think Apple's former ideology was "the computer was the hub"
back when the iPod was popular. At least 10-15 years ago that's transitioned
towards "the cloud is the hub" (I can imagine a bunch of reasons). The old
behavior has stuck around, but not really added to and I wouldn't be surprised
if it was soon dropped. I think the discontinuation of "Time Capsule" is an
example of this.
As another example, you can do backups via iTunes. Generally this was done
when you plugged in your device. They did add syncing over wifi, but it's
never been very rock solid and afaik you can't automate it since your never
plugging in your device. Every time local backups get brought up people say,
"but not everyone has a computer" which reenforces the focus on cloud backups.
~~~
manicdee
> Every time local backups get brought up people say, "but not everyone has a
> computer" which reenforces the focus on cloud backups.
Which is why I would like to see the focus on migrating this functionality to
their non-“computer” devices. Or add a separate device specifically to add
this feature.
Also the iTunes/Finder backup only works locally, can’t be used when I buy a
new device to configure it while in the shop.
~~~
pfranz
> Which is why I would like to see the focus on migrating this functionality
> to their non-“computer” devices. Or add a separate device specifically to
> add this feature.
I think that attempt was the AirPort Time Capsule (2008-2018). I'm sure it
would have added standalone iPhone backup and other functionality if there was
a strong audience.
> Also the iTunes/Finder backup only works locally, can’t be used when I buy a
> new device to configure it while in the shop.
Apple has had various "p2p" solutions. For awhile it was a physical device
that would effectively do a backup & restore to a new device. More recently
there's a wireless way to transition your phone that you can do yourself.
------
parliament32
>Surely there are hundreds, maybe thousands, of people every day who need to
access their iCloud backups who do not remember their password. The fact that
Apple can help them is a benefit to those users.
Wait, so how does this work right now? "Hey I promise I'm so-and-so, here's a
totally-not-doctored scan of my passport, can you go ahead and send me
_literally every conversation, photo, calendar event, note and file I 've
downloaded_ since I've been in the Apple ecosystem? Thanks"
That's terrifying.
------
musicale
If this bad publicity doesn't get Apple to offer encryption for iCloud
backups, I don't know what will.
~~~
MaysonL
They used to offer it, but found that more people were hurt by loss of
passwords (i.e. fail-secure backups) than were hurt by hacking. People who
lose all their family photos because they forgot their password get very angry
and sad, and it happens more often than you might think. I believe they
switched back in 2015 or so.
~~~
McAtNite
I don’t buy that defense. They could set it up to function exactly like local
encryption on your Mac.
When encrypting the drive it has you set your passcode. Then it tells you in
plain English that you can let them store a decryption key for you in case you
forget the passcode or you can store the decryption key yourself and risk
losing access to your files if you lose it.
It’s simple, easy to understand, and allows the user to decide what sort of
security they are comfortable with.
~~~
bradknowles
When I first enabled iTunes cloud backups years ago, it did exactly that —
gave me the choice of letting them securely store a copy of my cloud
encryption key, just in case.
I didn’t take that option, but the option was there.
------
chmaynard
> For at least the last decade, Apple has offered truly secure encrypted local
> backups of iOS devices, using iTunes on a Mac or PC.
I don't see a citation for this claim. How do we know if this is correct?
Trust but verify.
> ... for most iPhone and iPad users it’s irrelevant, because they never
> connect their devices to a Mac or PC, and the overwhelming majority of them
> surely have no idea that the feature even exists.
That's precisely why Reuters didn't mention iCloud in its headline. For almost
all iOS device owners, backup means iCloud backup.
~~~
codys
iTunes/local backup works over WiFi without connecting the iOS device via usb.
------
banku_brougham
The author’s hypothesis of how the FBI discussion happened is naive, seeming
almost like a straw man. Here’s what happened — Apple and FBI have been locked
in combat for years over this issue. Surely they’ve been served with National
Security letters, and had the full weight of the government pressing on them.
Apple was forced to compromise, and iCloud is pretty much everything.
~~~
machello13
I think you mistook his point. He's not arguing that Apple didn't acquiesce to
the FBI, he's just pointing out how ridiculous the idea is that Apple reached
out to the FBI to discuss future product plans (which is what Reuters says
happened).
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Solved: The Ciphers in Book III of Trithemius's Steganographia (1998) [pdf] - benbreen
http://profs.sci.univr.it/~giaco/download/Watermarking-Obfuscation/Trithemius.pdf
======
icanhackit
_This I did that to men of learning and men deeply engaged in the study of
magic, it might, by the Grace of God, be in some degree intelligible, while on
the other hand, to the thick-skinned turnip-eaters (imperitis Rapophagis) it
might for all time remain a hidden secret, and be to their dull intellects a
sealed book forever._
I initially thought _imperitis Rapophagis_ was simply a knock to the
uneducated commoners. Then I read that the turnip is used as an emblem
(charge) in the shield (escutcheon) of various coat of arms of prominent
Austrian families. One particular family would be the Keutschach family, of
whom Leonhard von Keutschach was Prince-Archbishop of Salzburg during Johannes
Trithemius time. It's a stretch, but I wonder if Trithemius was merely being
nationalistic rather than discriminatory?
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Zoom allowed a sign-up without verifying their email - aloknnikhil
https://twitter.com/kentonvarda/status/1261386443940868096
======
Wowfunhappy
Just trying to wear my skeptic hat here—how do we know this actually happened?
The user didn't even provide a screenshot—not that a screenshot would
necessarily be meaningful either.
Are there any other reports of this happening?
~~~
kentonv
The user is me. Yes, it happened. In fact, it happens all the damned time.
Lots and lots of web services don't bother verifying e-mail addresses because
they figure they'll lose conversions. I complain on Twitter every time this
happens to me, because it pisses me off -- read the thread for links to some
other examples.
The goal of my complaining is not to pile on Zoom but rather to raise
awareness that e-mail verification is not a thing that you can just skip. It's
important and -- in my humble opinion -- every service should strictly verify
all e-mails before letting users use their account in any way.
I don't know why I'd make this up. Why would I rant about a problem that
didn't actually happen?
I also don't know why this was posted on HN. This is just some guy ranting on
Twitter, not news.
~~~
aloknnikhil
I posted this here solely to raise awareness. Definitely not to shame Zoom.
------
seesawtron
There are tons of companies (apps) that let you do this. It is the tradeoff
between "bothering" your customers with verification process of going to their
emails and clicking another link vs. letting them use your app right away. It
only hurts customers when they sign up using emails that they don't own
(unless they make a typo) so why would the company care for what happens to
their accounts.
~~~
kentonv
Yes, that's the thought process.
Unfortunately, the reality is that people sign up for things with accidentally
or intentionally wrong e-mail addresses all the time. And it doesn't just harm
those people, but also the people who have e-mail addresses that, for whatever
reason, are commonly used in error (that's me). In this case, I cannot use
Zoom under my real e-mail address because someone erroneously claimed that
address and Zoom won't let me disassociate it with that organization.
This is NOT a security vulnerability, it's just an annoying design flaw.
~~~
seesawtron
Since you have access to your own email, can't you access the account of
people who used your email and delete it? Something like the guy in the post
could potentially do since he was able to get the complete access.
~~~
kentonv
I am the guy in the post. :)
I had control of the account, but Zoom wouldn't let me disassociate it with
the organization it was stuck in (some school in Chile). I'm not gotta use my
Zoom account if it's in some random org controlled by people I don't know.
It looks like either Zoom or the school has now removed me from the org,
probably after I e-mailed both of them, though neither has actually replied to
me...
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Apple countersues Nokia for patent infringement - optiplex
http://www.edibleapple.com/apple-countersues-nokia-for-patent-infringement/
======
yumraj
It looks like Apple's patent's are primarily UI/software related, which in the
worst case are relatively easy to workaround.
Nokia's patent's on the other hand are related to wireless technology which
are not easily workaround-able, so IMO if this goes towards settlement Nokia
has a much stronger hand.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Five reasons why Ruby made sense for our highly concurrent app (SuperIMAP) - RKlophaus
https://github.com/rustyio/super-imap#why-ruby
======
BuckRogers
Great post, very interesting. I am not a seasoned engineer like the OP but I
do like my Python and without having to learn the hard way, I have the same
conclusions laid out here. It's easy to get excited (I'm very interested in
Erlang myself), but there's a lot of practical matters.
I was left wondering, it was noted that 3 servers are used and another
language may only utilize 1. If Python was used, you could use PyPy and
possibly keep a "commodity language" like Ruby but get to keep it possibly
with the performance boost. I use PyPy for everything.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Should I leave my current position? - developer786
I am sure most of you will understand my reason to remain anonymous in this post, with that said:
I have been offered the following posts, and am deliberating on their acceptance, your help would be very much appreciated.<p>Firstly, whoami: https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=developer786<p>I am not a born coder, I know that, therefore,for he second post, I will be working very very hard.<p>Post 1 - Windows/Linux Administrator / DevOP - Large Private Healthcare company with good financial backing / profitable. - Job Security: Medium/High - Environment: Working with a team of 30 2nd and 3rd line support - No Stock options or shares - Salary: $63K - The role: Little development experience, lots of Linux Admin Experience, training in any sysadmin courses provided once every 2 years.<p>Post 2 - Developer(bash/php/ruby/python) / Linux Administrator - Private Telecommunications company with private shareholder backing / breaking even. - Job Security: Low/Medium - Environment: Working From Home - Stock options - Salary: $84K - The role: Developing bespoke applications in the above languages for a range of customer requirements. Developing and extending Linux based applications.<p>Your help, If I don't get to thank you later, is very much appreciated.
======
Spoom
You're asking a startup board if you should take a bigcorp job or (what sounds
like) a startup job, and the startup job is even more lucrative.
I would jump at the startup job (and, having essentially been where you are
now, perhaps with more dev experience, I did and absolutely don't regret it).
One potential advantage I can see in the bigcorp job is health insurance. If
the startup is giving you health insurance, go for it. You can learn as you
go; that's what they're betting on if they've already sent you the offer.
The other one is working with a team. Working from home every day isn't for
everyone.
You say in your profile that object-oriented PHP confuses you; how so? It is
common in the PHP world to have to check the docs on a fairly regular basis...
you get used to it. That is one of the legitimate complaints about the
language, the syntax is not very standardized between the built-in functions.
Also, I don't think coders are "born". (Most) coders learn their craft over
many years.
------
dome82
I think that you know what you want for your future.
Maybe, try to understand what you really love doing, where do you see yourself
in five years from now and most important, what makes you happy. You have to
enjoy your job. That's what I would think if i was in your situation.
Anyway, good luck with your future! :)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Blocking the rideshares - r4um
http://rachelbythebay.com/w/2018/07/31/growth/
======
djrobstep
> My friends, you don't have to put up with this.
Actively making the world's attention spans, media and politics worse is one
thing. But making me walk five minutes across a carpark to work? That's a
bridge too far folks.
~~~
sgift
One thing affects other people, the other affects themselves. And why should
anyone care about others?
p.s.: /s
------
sadamznintern
Unless something changed OP is an FB engineer.
>My friends, you don't have to put up with this. You are in high demand. It is
possible to "go back in time". Go seek your fortune on the open market. It's
worth it.
....
This might be the most bizarre sentence I’ve read all week. The privilege
required to say this is absolutely astounding. I was at the campus in question
a few months ago and did not get an offer. Am I just excluded from these
conversations? Besides, it’s not like OP is including my current employer,
which is orders of magnitude bigger in employee counts and significantly more
frugal.
I’m just at kind of a loss right now.
~~~
firasd
Seems at least from social media discussion that people are less inclined to
seek their fortune on the 'open market' nowadays, since Google, Facebook,
Amazon, Microsoft are paying so much, and startup equity has become even more
of a gamble than usual given that companies are taking 10 years to IPO.
------
jbob2000
I flagged this because it's short and missing a lot of context. I'm sure
there's something meaningful to be said about rideshare companies (I'm not
even sure that's the main subject here), but I really have no idea what the
author is going for.
------
practice9
> a certain company
Which one?
~~~
modeless
It is Facebook. They've had congestion problems for a while now and she worked
there until recently. Really annoying when writers do this kind of tiptoeing
around a name. It's disrespectful to readers and accomplishes nothing.
~~~
sadamznintern
Yeah, I agree. For such petty first world complaints especially - idk how long
OPs tenure was but considering stock appreciation and how quickly they can get
promoted she was probably pulling down $350k+ yearly and that’s being
conservative. Like OP could buy a house - at my company I won’t be able to
afford one for decades.
------
jimbo999
g'luck devops ppl
~~~
xref
is she a devops person?
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: What's a simple app/software that made a lot of money? - kkt262
What are some apps or software that made decent money (6-figures+), but aren't hard to make at all?<p>Think something that a programmer could make in a weekend or two.<p>Does anything come to mind?
======
csallen
Check out my site [https://IndieHackers.com](https://IndieHackers.com) and
sort by highest revenue. The "simplest" apps on there (from a technical
perspective) making the most money are probably Semantria ($150k/mo),
ConferenceBadge.com ($45k/mo), Nomad List ($33k/mo), Storemapper ($21k/mo),
and FormCraft ($13.4k/mo).
Of course, if the app is simple to build and makes a ton of money, that
invariably means that the other components (marketing, sales, distribution,
etc) are tougher to crack.
~~~
kkt262
This is an awesome looking site, but I doubt those apps were that simple to
create. I could be wrong. I kind of meant like a "flashlight" app or something
similar like that.
~~~
csallen
Ah, yeah there's nothing like that on the site doing six figures. A lot of
these products did start off as small MVPs that could be built in a weekend or
two, however. They just got more complex over time, especially as they scaled
to handle additional customers. I suppose that's not a concern with a
flashlight app :)
Can I ask what your goal is? Are you looking to hire a developer for cheap and
then do the marketing yourself?
------
sundarurfriend
How about Whatsapp? A plain old chat application, with some bells and whistles
like attaching map locations and contacts, but more importantly removing the
usual barriers of "Invite your friend to talk to them!", ended up worth 18
billion dollars (and counting).
~~~
Lordarminius
Whatsapp was not simple.
Angry Birds?
~~~
kkt262
I'm pretty sure Angry Birds took a long time to make.
~~~
Lordarminius
Flappy bird I meant to say
------
pshamraiz
I am not sure! That the programmer could make the app with no problems. I mean
that If it could be then it should be available for every county. And also for
every currency as well. And The money can also be transfered in Bank accounts
only.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Man hacks Tesla firmware, finds new model, has car remotely downgraded - antman
http://arstechnica.com/cars/2016/03/man-hacks-tesla-firmware-finds-new-model-has-car-remotely-downgraded/
======
zyxley
"They punished him by remotely downgrading his firmware" is a frankly absurd
claim... and incorrect, too.
The guy's own post [1] said it was "pending" (e.g. downloaded and ready for an
automatic update), not installed. Given that someone else in the same thread
notes that the update when installed on their car didn't actually fix the
important charging bug it was supposed to, it's much more likely that it was
"somebody in engineering decided to cancel a bad update" than his paranoid
claims.
[1]:
[http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/63905-Tesla-s-...](http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/63905-Tesla-
s-response-to-me-leaking-info-about-the-P100D)
~~~
maratd
> The guy's own post [1] said it was "pending" (e.g. downloaded and ready for
> an automatic update), not installed.
This is correct. It was an attempted downgrade. He stopped it.
> it's much more likely that it was "somebody in engineering decided to cancel
> a bad update" than his paranoid claims.
This is unlikely. He wasn't being downgraded to the version prior to the
current one. He was being downgraded to a much older version that did not
contain any of the secret info. And nobody else was experiencing the
downgrade. If there is a critical flaw that requires a rollback, you do it for
everyone and it's big news. He also made it clear that he found a ton of other
stuff and was not disclosing that (yet).
It looks like somebody at Tesla pushed code to production that shouldn't have
been pushed since it isn't relevant to any production vehicles. Once the leak
happened, there was a bit of a panic and to stop anymore leaks, they tried to
downgrade ... which was silly, because if you know how to root the car, you
probably know how to make a backup and stop remote access.
------
Apocryphon
So a rogue corporate exec ordered an unauthorized op against a ronin hacker
who Robin Hood'ed the underhood of his electric car.
We are living in cyberpunk times.
~~~
stcredzero
_So a rogue corporate exec ordered an unauthorized op against a ronin hacker
who Robin Hood 'ed the underhood of his electric car.
We are living in cyberpunk times._
I remember when cyberpunk was fresh and new, before it was a codified
collection of cliches. Mind you, this was also a time when an author could
write, "His buyer for the three megabytes of hot RAM in the Hitachi wasn't
taking calls," and think this sounded futuristic and criminally lucrative.
~~~
aaroninsf
That reminds me, I was as a public service going to make an auto-updating epub
of Neuromancer which simply incremented the units as needed to sound duly
impressive.
"His buyer for the three petabytes of hot RAM..." etc...
~~~
emmelaich
Better off making something up. Flebibytes or something. Gibson should've done
that in the original.
~~~
kordless
Flebibytes? That's a crazy amount.
~~~
aaroninsf
On the street, sure.
In academe anything under ten mangabytes is noise these days tho and I imagine
the dark economy is two factors beyond anything we have access to. :/
------
SocksCanClose
Great article, and the best is Musk's response. Just one more example of how,
ala Allison and Zeilkow's "Essence of Decision," so much of what happens in
industrial organizations ("industrial" in the philosophical sense -- meaning
organizations with hierarchies, divisions, etc.) is motivated not by the
overall interest of the organization (cf. Musk's response), but rather of the
more parochial needs of the individual managers. Which is to say someone
within the Tesla organization, fearful of an error they made, sought to
retaliate against the guy -- even though the retaliation was unauthorized, and
even counterproductive. An amazing use case for how Twitter, when optimally
utilized as a total free-speech zone, can really help move the world forward,
as things like this enable information to percolate directly to the top
without winding its way through the "mittelebureaucracy."
~~~
Theodores
What would you do if your latest commits went live and they indeed did have
new things in there, e.g. attribute values?
You might just roll the whole thing back a release, in the first instance to
'update' the hacker to a 'safe' version. If there were a need to roll everyone
back then some type of patched new version would need to be released, or, if
speed really mattered, just remote downgrade everyone to something safe. The
major version numbers might not be the safe releases, the last release from a
previous major version might be safer. Hence back to v.12.x.y for him. No
malice be involved, just prudent reaction.
~~~
maratd
> No malice be involved, just prudent reaction.
It's not malice, it's panic and it's _profoundly_ stupid.
Only those with root access to the car can access the secret info.
There are a handful of people out there who rooted their cars. They are
individuals of extraordinary technical ability.
You think they don't know how to make a backup? Or how to stop remote access?
That's exactly what happened. He blocked them and then deleted the pending
downgrade.
~~~
21
Let's assume there is a problem caused be the rooting and as a result the
Tesla spins out of control and kills a bystander.
Would you agree that this extraordinary technical ability individual should be
criminally liable in this case?
~~~
maratd
> Would you agree that this extraordinary technical ability individual should
> be criminally liable in this case?
No. There's no mens rea. He should be liable for damages in civil court.
~~~
21
By this logic killing someone while driving drunk is also not criminal since
there is no mens rea.
~~~
maratd
There is such a thing as criminal negligence.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_negligence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_negligence)
In your case, the person was being reckless. I don't think gaining access to
hardware you own can be considered reckless, regardless of the _unlikely_
circumstances that may result. Your death-by-rooting example is entirely
hypothetical and has _never_ happened.
~~~
vectorjohn
Absolutely it could be considered reckless. You think some guy messing with
his car's firmware understands it well enough to be as safe as the
manufacturer? If an accident caused by manufacturer firmware can make the
manufacturer liable for an accident, then someone tampering with it obviously
can make them liable.
It has never happened? Who cares, what does that matter?
~~~
maratd
I never said the hacker shouldn't be liable. I said he shouldn't be
_criminally_ liable.
By your logic, if the manufacturer puts out software that is responsible for a
death, would you throw the software developer who wrote in jail? That's silly.
All this stuff is limited to civil liability.
~~~
rbanffy
It really depends on what the developer did. If the developer knowingly
removed all tests that weren't passing because the car, sometimes, did not
recognize old ladies crossing the street, then this person should go to jail.
This is evidently negligence.
------
fosco
I do not understand "Good Hacking is a gift" remark.
I would love if Tesla's were open for hacking but a previous article [0]
pointed out that there appears to be a strong stance [1] against this.
Disclosure:I am a huge fan of the Tesla brand, just cautiously optimistic.
[0]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11233898](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11233898)
[1]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11234465](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11234465)
~~~
maratd
Elon Musk != Tesla
Or at the very least, Elon Musk is the voice of Tesla, but there are many
other people who work there. You judge a company by their actions, not their
words. I'm a huge fan of what they're doing, but not necessarily how they're
doing it.
The cars are absolutely awesome.
Unfortunately, they only provide service manuals in Massachusetts (where they
are required to by law) and charge $100 per day to view them. Do not sell
parts to the public. Ports in the car (obd/ethernet/etc.) are disabled by
default. API is undocumented/proprietary. No access to OS. No access to
diagnostic information.
Very similar to how Apple does things.
~~~
nivla
> Elon Musk != Tesla
He is the CEO, he is responsible for the actions of his employees that are
work related. Under the same guise, he shouldn't receive praises for anything
everyone else under him does either.
------
johansch
[http://mashable.com/2016/02/03/tesla-refuses-rude-
customer/](http://mashable.com/2016/02/03/tesla-refuses-rude-customer/)
------
grav
How did someone manage to find the image from the SHA hash?
~~~
evmar
I just made a lucky guess from the keywords in the article:
$ echo -n 'P100D' | sha256sum
5fc38436ec295b0049f186651ebba5fd55e8d7b81eb61cbd00d3f1bf18dd9c81
~~~
mikeash
It's so short that you can also just brute force it. Using hashcat in "try all
short alphanumeric+symbols strings in increasing length" mode on this hash
produces the resulting string in about ten seconds on my computer.
I imagine it was just guessed, though. Any Tesla fan thinking of "cool new
upgrade to the car, currently secret" would put a P100D model near the top of
the list of things to try.
~~~
ChristianBundy
Yep. There are plenty of sites that have already brute-forced hashes for
arbitrary n-length alphanumeric strings.
[https://md5hashing.net/hash/sha256/5fc38436ec295b0049f186651...](https://md5hashing.net/hash/sha256/5fc38436ec295b0049f186651ebba5fd55e8d7b81eb61cbd00d3f1bf18dd9c81)
------
sabujp
Do you own your car? Just the metal, but not the software that's required to
actually make it do anything useful.
------
Overtonwindow
"Root the car" man what an amazing time we live in.
------
PhasmaFelis
I don't see any evidence that this guy's car was targeted specifically. From
the info in the article, a much more likely scenario is that they accidentally
pushed an update with private data to all cars, realized their mistake after
the tweet was posted, then rolled back the update on all cars, so they could
fix it before rolling it out again. That's exactly what you'd expect them to
do and not sinister in the least.
I haven't read the 48-page forum discussion linked in the article, so there
may be more info there, but at the very least the article writer hasn't
adequately backed up his claims.
~~~
PhasmaFelis
I seriously have no idea why this is getting downvoted. Anyone?
~~~
jessaustin
In TFA it quotes Musk himself confirming OP's claims. Why would Musk do that
if they weren't true?
~~~
PhasmaFelis
He doesn't say that, though. "Wasn't done at my request" means that _if_ it
was done, he didn't order it; it neither confirms nor denies that it actually
happened. Musk is being cagey; it's possible that he didn't yet know exactly
what had occurred or who had ordered it.
Again, maybe there's something in that 48-page thread that proves me wrong.
I'm fine with that. But it makes no sense to swallow the article's simplified
interpretation without first doing the homework.
------
marincounty
$100 a day to view basic service manuals? I will Never buy a Tesla; even if
one day I can afford one.
I can't believe you wealthy boys are putting up with this.
Do you guys really want to be sitting on the side of a road clueless over your
toy? I don't expect you boys to pull out the DVOM, and Snap-on tools, but a
little knowledge of why it broke down?
Isn't it kinda the American way to at least know what the underlying problem
is? Or, have we been conditioned into being good obedient victims?
Personally, I feel emasculated if I need to ring a ding ding AAA? Especially,
if the problem is minor. Will never know if we aren't able to read up on the
toy?
~~~
ocdtrekkie
If you can afford a Tesla, you can probably buy a new one before the warranty
wears out. And you probably/definitely have roadside service.
~~~
Vraxx
Not a very good argument considering they're coming out with cheaper models.
Not to mention, just because someone bought something doesn't mean they can
afford it by a wide margin, it's sad but true. I think the poster you respond
to has some points on why it isn't optimal for the end user, but they
certainly could have phrased it a bit better.
~~~
ocdtrekkie
I'm not saying I endorse this position. (I'm amazed I got downvoted as if I
did.) I'm just saying this is why people have put up with it: Almost nobody
realizes it, because people who buy Teslas generally aren't servicing their
own cars, and most of them are still under warranty and they'll probably
upgrade before that date arrives.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
The Great Double Standard - drm237
http://www.microsoft-watch.com/content/operating_systems/the_great_double_standard.html
======
pg
You don't need a double standard to account for the difference in stock
prices. In what market where they compete is Apple not growing at Microsoft's
expense?
~~~
drm237
The only thing that Microsoft does much better than apple in my opinion is the
home theater segment. Media Center is actually a great system, especially
compared to the crap dvr you get with comcast or fios. The Apple TV doesn't
compare. It would have been a great opportunity for Apple to dominate in a
segment where most agree Microsoft stands out but they didn't take advantage
of it.
Other than that, I completely agree that overall, apple has a better user
experience than MS.
~~~
Andys
On the other hand, for a student or young couple in a small apartment, a 20"
or 24" iMac is all they really need for their entertainment needs, it handles
that situation really well.
------
mrtron
Microsoft's primary product is unacceptably poor. Apple is innovative.
Hence your 'double standard'.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
The Goa Project (India's SXSW) Opens Call for Proposals - playhard
http://funnel.thegoaproject.com/
======
kshatrea
I am using Firefox on Ubuntu, and when I disable Noscript for this site, it
keeps crashing my browser. Viewing it with scripts disabled. Other than that,
site looks good.
------
senthilnayagam
my submission in fringe category
[http://funnel.thegoaproject.com/fringe/7-discover-
internet-o...](http://funnel.thegoaproject.com/fringe/7-discover-internet-of-
things)
------
suyash
Where is the link for proposal submission?
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
In a society obsessed with success, how do we come to terms with failure? - plg
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/michelle-kaeser-failure-is-golden-too/article37828663/
======
lcc
As another washed-up former athlete (one of my old teammates will be playing
in PyeongChang any day now), what resonated most with me was how the author
grappled with her self-identity after quitting. It is easy to define yourself
when you have a concrete goal and can pour all your time, energy, heart and
soul into it. And it is devastating when you lose it.
It's even harder to redefine yourself when you used to be _good_ at whatever
it was you lost, because you know just how much time and effort it took to get
there. It can seem impossible to achieve the same level of mastery of anything
else.
It's been almost 5 years since I quit and, while I've picked up new hobbies
that I enjoy, I still haven't found anything that inspires the passion I used
to have for my sport.
~~~
mjfl
I spent a good 10 years of my life in a legitimate attempt to become an NFL
player. If you saw me, you would have said it was a long shot - of course it
was - but I didn't let any of this get to me and I worked extremely hard to
get to that goal. But I failed. I started for 3 years on my D3 college
football team but at the end of my senior season I was still laughably far
from NFL caliber. When I put my pads away for the last time it was
devastatingly clear that I had completely wasted on average 20-30 hours every
week for the past 10 years of my life, hours I could have spent making friends
and/or becoming a normal person.
You know what I did? I moved on, fast. And that is the solution to failure -
move on quickly. And I did move on, and have found success after.
~~~
sage76
I consider you lucky, you had a big goal and you went all out to try and get
there. There has to be some satisfaction in having put it all out on the line.
Most people live fairly mundane lives, directionless and sans ambition.
I wish I had that kind of singular focus on something when I was 10.
Considering where I was born, I had little opportunity to pursue
sports/music/whatever at a young age, my society pushes kids to become
bookworms. I feel I greatly missed out.
> hours I could have spent making friends and/or becoming a normal person.
It's overrated, and you can have normality when you're old.
~~~
gkya
"Normality" is really very overrated indeed. I learnt rather late that one had
to come to terms with his particularities and that "normal" was not that good
of a thing to be; realisations before which I was suffering in agony because I
wasn't "normal". Conforming to the society without compromising oneself is
okay, trying to fix defects one's own personality is okay, but all these are
possible without becoming "normal", which implies mediocrity, ordinariness.
------
Intrepidy
Achilles willingly left Greece, knowing he would die in Troy, so that he could
be known as the greatest warrior in history. Alexander the Great supposedly
broke down and cried when he felt he had nobody left to overcome. Julius
Caesar in turn, after subduing all of Gaul, wept at the feet of Alexander's
statue some 200 years later, lamenting that at the age of 38, he had
accomplished nothing compared to Alexander. And there are plenty of such
examples in non-Western societies where the losers didn't just get a silver
medal; but were killed. This story is as old as humanity itself and just as
ubiquitous. I think the fashionable, progressive approach to blaming society
is wrong in this case. Seeking greatness over peaceful mediocrity may simply
be a character 'flaw' in mankind. As such, failure has become one of our
signature moves.
~~~
Spooky23
People like this are usually driven by something missing within. Alexander
understood this when he met Diogenes, and went to conquer the earth rather
than deal with that.
There’s a reason pride is a sin in the Christian tradition. There’s a lesson
to be reflect upon in the story of Alexander and Caesar... Ceasar’s conquest
of Gaul was complete and epic. He slaughtered and enslaved a statistically
significant proportion of the human race. He became rich beyond comprehension
and built a legacy admired millennia later. Yet he died stabbed in the back by
his friend, still unsatisfied.
~~~
nairboon
What exactly was Alexander missing?
~~~
nostrademons
Peace.
------
petra
>> Because who I'd be was just another ordinary, mediocre 12-year old girl. I
rubbed at the calluses on my hands, sat in front of the TV and felt terrified
that I'd never again be good at something. Nothing is scarier than that.
To some extent, this is common in th west. But why is this so important to not
be ordinary ? Why isn't it good enough to be good at something at your friends
group, family, etc ?
~~~
VLM
Ordinary is no longer economically survivable.
~~~
verylittlemeat
It comes down to economic expectations.
I live below the poverty line in the United States and my life is great. My
health insurance is 100% free and probably the best in the world. I get
financial aid from different government sources that give me a comfortable
simple life.
The people who feel they need to own cars or houses and have children struggle
to meet their personal expectations. Their struggle and wealth subsidies my
lifestyle.
I don't consider wealthy people my enemy or "rich fools." Instead I see them
as people who psychologically for one reason or another have certain
expectations about what life is supposed to be. They wouldn't want my life for
free and I wouldn't want their life at a cost. Does my lifestyle carry a
social stigma? Of course. But do I really care what someone else thinks when
I'm basically allowed to live in a first world country for free? Not even a
little bit.
To me this is as fair as you can probably get in an economic system.
~~~
dominotw
what about traveling and seeing the world.
~~~
verylittlemeat
Do you value you that? Then live your life in accordance with achieving that
goal. There are lots of ways to see the world, from being a vagrant to a CEO
who travels business class to the finest hotels.
I don't value travel enough to change my lifestyle so I wont work toward that
end but if you do then you should. I say this with zero judgment or passive
aggressive intention.
------
sethammons
TL;DR is the author spent years and years of dedicated effort as a gymnast and
quit and did not make it to the Olympics. Describes herself as a failure as a
gymnast instead of having failed (noun vs verb). And ends the piece with the
suggestion that maybe we should all just settle with the knowledge that we
will not achieve our dreams.
Wow. Granted I read it quickly and maybe missed something. I take a different
view. While the goal/dream is admirable, it is the journey that counts. I've
been successful in areas, failures in some more, and somewhere in between on
others. I've learned and I've grown in each. I've learned more in my failures
than in my successes and they helped shape me into who I am. I feel that if
you make the best choice you can given the information you have, you've
nothing to regret. Strive to be better. Be grateful for what you have. Learn
from mistakes. Sometime you'll lose so hard that it is earth shattering. The
goal is to be able to pick up the pieces, and keep moving. The most important
step you can take is not the first, but the next.
~~~
ataturk
First world problems!
I competed in two different Olympic sports and although I attended the Junior
Olympics for one of the (big whoop, right?) and didn't place, I never once
thought I was a loser--you just look at the competition and how a mere few
seconds determines the winner versus going home with nothing. People have peak
days, others are just a tiny bit off. What I realized is that greatness has a
component of luck to it. I figured I was lucky to be able to compete there at
all. There are letdowns for sure, but you're not competing with others as much
as you are competing with yourself.
ETA--Having attended the Olympic Training Center around age 16, I can't tell
you how depressing it was to see 20 and 30-something athletes living in the
dorms there, striving for their moment of glory while everyone else was out
having fun, working, starting families, etc. I look back at that as the moment
I made a very conscious choice to focus on having a career. Olympic sports
aren't pro sports, you aren't getting endorsement deals unless you're in one
of the "popular" sports like swimming or downhill skiing.
~~~
astura
>I can't tell you how depressing it was to see 20 and 30-something athletes
living in the dorms there, striving for their moment of glory while everyone
else was out having fun, working, starting families, etc.
It might be depressing to YOU because it's not what you'd like for yourself
but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's depressing for the people living
it, after all, it's what they have chosen. Not everyone is exactly like you
and wants the same things in life. I see people living their lives in all
sorts of ways I would consider absolutely awful and depressing, but I don't
project my values and goals on them.
------
flyinglizard
“For most of us, our dreams exceed our limitations, and our ambitions lie far
beyond our capabilities“
Not from my experience, no. Most people I know - the vast majority - don’t
even try chasing the dreams they have. They are not failing because they’re
not even in the game. Most of them do not have ambitions beyond those one
degree apart from biological sustenance; they just are.
~~~
mcguire
I could tell you a story about someone who had dreams and goals and plans.
And then he discovered that the world is not a kind place; it puts down
immovable barriers against those plans. He has a friend who says, "anything
good that happened was because I beat my head against a stone wall until I
succeeded;" not this guy---anything good that happens seems basically pure
luck, head banging or no head banging.
He discovered that those goals he did work for and achieve suddenly tasted
like sand. And then one day he realized that the reason he would never achieve
any of those great dreams was because the will to work for them had been
beaten out.
Yeah, I could tell you a story. But I won't.
~~~
ahussain
Are there any writers who dive into this a subject area?
------
keenmaster
There are so many domains where you can achieve success or mastery so I just
don’t buy the central message here. I think most people can be very successful
in multiple domains, it’s just a matter of finding them and working hard
enough. Gymnastics is an unfortunate thing to fail at since it’s a big
commitment. Maybe that’s why the author was rendered cynical/defeated.
~~~
cryptica
Pick any given field these days and you'll immediately be competing with
millions of other talented people. Some of them have been doing it since they
were children.
There aren't many careers that you can change into and succeed. It's very rare
nowadays and it's getter rarer because capital is becoming increasingly
concentrated and knowledge is becoming increasingly specialised. The playing
field is global now. Even if you want to do something as mundane as open a
local retail outlet, now you have to compete with giants like Amazon who use
profits from their monopolies in other industries to bleed you dry.
The most important financial decision you can make in life is having the right
parents. Second is marrying the right person.
What you call cynicism is actually realism. You're the optimist. The fact that
you have this world view suggests that either you were born into a well-off
family or you got very lucky at some point in your life.
In the same way that one wrong move can kill you in a second, it only takes a
single stroke of luck to set you on a lifelong winning streak...
Unfortunately, bad luck is the norm for most people.
While it's true that the harder you work, the luckier you get, when your luck
starts in the negatives, it can take a lifetime just to bring it to 0.
------
ajeet_dhaliwal
What society isn’t obsessed with success? No one wants to fail in hunting,
farming, business or anything else.
~~~
dvanduzer
Some societies seem to focus more on individual success than community
survival.
I want to live in a society that is obsessed with creating a future where
every member can thrive. Canada seems to be working a little harder at this
than the United States, but both countries still have frontier culture heavily
baked in.
~~~
ajeet_dhaliwal
I want to live in a society where individual success is the obsession above
all else. Society and community is made up of individuals after all.
~~~
saeranv
This seems a bit simplistic, or I'm not understanding your comment. It is
trivial to prove that you have to sometimes deprioritize an individual's
success in order to ensure group success.
For example, it is beneficial to tax rich individuals to ensure the community
has access to a social security safety net. Technically this penalizes a rich
individual's success, however it is a critical factor in the success of the
group.
------
nimbius
ive always based success on quality of life. For example, I once took the RHCE
and failed by just four points. Looking at the cost of the exam at around
$400, I decided to forego a retake as a hundred dollars per point seemed
silly. What did it mean to me, and my definition of success, to be able to
regurgitate old Apache ACL's on command? Not much, seeing as Nginx is of a
higher priority to me.
In the end I relegated the experience to that of a rat race. Being told you've
failed the RHCE hurts but in no way does it mean you should settle with never
achieving your dreams. Sometimes you've got to understand who sets the terms
and definitions, and make adjustments as necessary. Letting others decide the
objectives of success is tacitly hoping their outcomes and objectives for that
often very personal success are as altruistic and self serving as yours. At
some point, everything from Body Spray to luxury sedans set this bar in a
predatory manner. Theres no reason to think the Olympics and private
corporations in general wont at some point do this as well.
~~~
ghaff
In some cases, the certifications associated with some score on a test do
matter. It's one thing to pursue a certification, whether some IT certificate
or passing the bar, for the learning experience and personal satisfaction. In
those cases, it may well indeed make sense to conclude that you came close
enough and move onto the next thing.
But if you've spent 3 years in law school and really want to become a lawyer,
it may well make sense to study harder and try to pass the bar the next time--
especially if you didn't fail by much. (Don't actually know how much feedback
if you get if you fail.)
------
klum
From the article, you get the clear impression that she had a complicated
relationship with the sport: she was passionate about it, but afraid of it as
well.
I can't help but wonder if she would have gotten closer to her goals if she
had been able to see things in a less scary light -- by being taught and
supported in a more positive way, or something like that. I guess it's down to
who you are as a person, but attitudes can be developed in different ways.
I wonder if there is a distinction between top performers and mere mortals
here -- that the top performers manage to find the love for what they are
doing even under intense pressure? And, in that case, which way the causality
goes...
------
everdev
Competition is designed to have roles succeed, not people. In business or
sport, we want the best to succeed. In that sense competition is a success as
long as it's fair. The people or businesses in the competition are essentially
replaceable.
~~~
mathgeek
> In business or sport, we want the best to succeed.
This is inaccurate, or at least overly generalized. In both business and
sport, many want those who contribute to the health of the field to succeed.
Competition is good and drives innovation, whether that's technology or how to
hit a baseball consistently.
------
currymj
i thought the best part of the article was towards the end, where she talks
about all the different ways that gymnasts have of redefining success.
i think it may be healthy to avoid doing that. like, don't say "well, my
company failed, but the important thing is I tried unlike all those losers
stuck in 9-5 jobs". or "i didn't get a tenure-track job but really, this job
in industry is great and the important thing is my transferable research
skills".
you still failed, and it's much more dignified to live with it.
------
vladmk
this is a very fluffy peace. First what is success? In what measure? Second
"How do we come to terms with failure?" What failure? Whose failure? Everyone
has their own, failure isn't a problem that haunts everyone, failure is
however someone defines it. My failure isn't your failure.
------
wu-ikkyu
By not idolizing/worshipping arbitrary measures of success (money, popularity)
in the first place
------
totalZero
I don't ever want to come to terms with failure. I just want to turn away from
it and be so busy that I don't have time to sort it out. Acceptance of failure
feels like a form of surrender.
------
paulsutter
Competition is for losers
"Always prioritize the substance of what you're doing. Don't get caught up in
the status, the prestige games. They're endlessly dazzling, and they're always
endlessly disappointing” -Peter Thiel
~~~
dvtv75
Didn't he just use his status and prestige to buy his way into New Zealand
citizenship? (This is a rhetorical question, the answer is "It would seem
so.")
~~~
seem_2211
While Thiel definitely charmed his way into a NZ Citizenship (amazing piece
here by the way: [http://www.nzherald.co.nz/indepth/national/how-peter-
thiel-g...](http://www.nzherald.co.nz/indepth/national/how-peter-thiel-got-
new-zealand-citizenship/)), I always read his comment more as advice to avoid
the traditional Management Consulting / Finance / Law career paths that a lot
of Ivy League / Stanford / elite school students end up taking, where they
work 70+ hours every week, generally competing for a 5% chance to become a
partner 15 years down the track. The payoff isn't great. But the prestige of
working at McKinsey / Goldman / Cravath is.
------
fullshark
Interesting title but this is just an excuse for a long form autobiographical
blogpost.
------
shams93
You look at the statistics and basically you're largely already born wealthy
or you are in poverty especially in California. If you look at social mobility
in California it's almost as bad as medieval Europe. The system that enabled
hard work to be rewarded is gone. The creative professions that used to be a
vehicle for persona wealth are gone. We are living in an era of corporate
feudalism where you're either born on top or born to fail but the only
question that is relevant today is "who's your daddy?"
~~~
magic_beans
This comment is completely irrelevant to the article.
~~~
Applejinx
On the contrary, it's got a great deal to do with success and failure, and
defines the only reason why such an article is important.
If we can't disrupt success… 'move fast and break' success… we're very close
to societal collapse.
I turned a ten-year software business into a Patreon that gives away free
software and is beginning to make it open source, and I feel I'm doing some
tangible things to disrupt 'success'. Our sense of value has to be founded on
different ground.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
The White Working Class Will Come for Silicon Valley Next - CaliforniaKarl
https://stanfordreview.org/silicon-valley-and-the-white-working-class-3b3252043946
======
chmaynard
> The Stanford Review, Stanford’s Independent Newspaper
This article is not really news, it's a speculative opinion piece and should
be labeled as such. Unfortunately, we see this kind of "soft news" article
every day in leading newspapers such as the NYT, so smaller publications like
Stanford Review think it must be considered journalism and do the same thing.
------
jdhopeunique
It seems like these articles about AI taking away jobs is just a distraction
from the real wage depression caused by temporary work visas, illegal
immigration, and workers being classified as contractors. Perhaps Silicon
Valley elites wish to signal they have other options for labor as a sort of
threat to combat increased scrutiny of their labor practices. Perhaps the
message is: "Don't take away our cheap labor or we will release the AI
overlords."
------
Alex3917
Suicide rates are going to spike even more after self-driving cars become
common. Not only because a lot more Americans will be unemployed, but also a
lot of people whose deaths are currently ruled as car accidents are going to
instead be forced to commit suicide in ways that have less plausible
deniability.
~~~
shams93
That's true but you will reach a breaking point, like what happened in 1992 in
the la riots, but this time the working class will spontaneously loot and burn
the entire country. The LA Riots hit so fast and hard and spontaneously there
was no way for the powers to be to prepare. After a couple of weeks the troops
came in and started using machine guns on local people, that shut it down. My
prediction is that Trump will drop a nuclear weapon on one or more major US
cities to put down a rebellion. No one else has his level of mental
instability, not even Bush would do that but I would be not at all suprised to
see Trump drop a nuclear weapon on a major US city.
------
openmarmot
this article might have been good without the race-baiting. hard to understand
what "white" has to do with having a job.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
FCC “consumer advisory” panel includes ALEC, big foe of municipal broadband - grawprog
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2019/04/fcc-consumer-advisory-panel-includes-alec-big-foe-of-municipal-broadband/
======
username223
For those who are unfamiliar with it, ALEC[1] writes far-right and corporate-
friendly laws, then tries to get state lawmakers to pass them. It's more or
less a lobbying tentacle of Koch Industries.
[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Legislative_Exchange_...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Legislative_Exchange_Council)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Honouring computing’s 1843 visionary, Lady Ada Lovelace - cleverjake
http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2012/12/honouring-computings-1843-visionary.html
======
bazzargh
The Lovelace & Babbage comic is fun:
<http://sydneypadua.com/2dgoggles/lovelace-the-origin-2/>
(that's the one Sydney Padua did for Lovelace Day, but there's lots more on
the site). The cartoons are in a steampunk comedy style, but backed with
copious footnotes and links to the source documents about the details and
characters.
------
exDM69
Calling Ada Lovelace's program to compute Bernoulli numbers "the first
published algorithm" is slightly odd choice of wording, since mathematical
algorithms have existed long before there were machines to mechanically
compute them.
Euclid's algorithm for computing greatest common divisors of integers, from
his work Elements circa 300 B.C. is sometimes called the oldest surviving(?)
algorithm in writing.
Nevertheless, very exciting article about a very special visionary.
------
shmerl
_> So much of world history leaves out or minimizes the contributions of
women, and so “of course” most of us had no idea who she was._
This sounds amazing. I thought she's really well known amongst the techie
crowd.
~~~
davedx
We were taught about her and Babbage in our History of Computing module at
university, but outside of university I haven't heard much about her to be
fair.
University educations are still good for some things! It's good to know your
roots :)
~~~
cafard
Well, but what have you heard of Babbage outside of university?
------
1123581321
I was delighted to learn that Byron was her father! What an interesting
family.
I was also surprised by the framing of this. Of course history is not studied
by many people now, but how many who would know of Babbage would not know of
Lovelace? She is very famous.
~~~
jff
Personally, I've always seen more coverage of Lovelace than of Babbage--she's
thoroughly celebrated, at least at my university, along with Grace Hopper and
our own local famous female engineer (for whom the college of engineering is
named). There is no Babbage Day or anything of the sort, he's just this guy
that didn't quite build a computer.
------
Surio
Related discussion. Happened a while back here on HN:
Marie Curie day: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4658763>
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Entropy law linked to intelligence - morphics
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-22261742
======
ColinWright
In case you're wondering why you're not getting much discussion here, the same
story, although from a different source, was submitted three days ago:
<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5579047>
There is substantial discussion there.
There are others, but they have little or no discussion, so I haven't linked
them.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Nodestream: Templating for Realtime Apps in Node.js - rafaelc
http://thechangelog.com/post/1194098336/nodestream-realtime-apps-made-easy-with-templating
======
smoody
Applause to the LearnBoost team for making a great number of node.js open
source contributions.
------
buddydvd
This reminds me of Quora.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Do a startup or travel around the world? - paraschopra
http://paraschopra.com/blog/entrepreneurship/do-a-startup-or-travel-around-the-world.htm
======
jasonkester
Why did you put an "or" into a question about two things that go together so
nicely?
I'd highly recommend starting your own software company. And I'd highly
recommend traveling around the world. I've been doing both for the better part
of 10 years. At the same time.
So my advice is to do a quick search & replace on your question. Switch "or"
for "and", turn it into a statement, then go do it.
~~~
paraschopra
Would love to hear your point of view on this. Have you documented your
experiences anywhere? Blog post or HN comment?
Also, do you think having such a lifestyle can have be called as truly
financially independent?
~~~
jasonkester
A quick spin back through my blog reveals that I've been shamefully lax on
writing about the actual mechanics of running a software company from the
road. I'll need to do something about that.
In the meantime, here's a quick overview of what I've been up to since I
started working from the road:
[http://www.expatsoftware.com/articles/2006/12/getting-it-
dow...](http://www.expatsoftware.com/articles/2006/12/getting-it-down-on-
paper.html)
From a financial perspective, it's completely counterintuitive that traveling
is actually a lot cheaper than staying at home. But if you think about it a
minute, it starts to make sense. Imagine you cut your rent and car payment
down to zero (by ditching both car and apartment), as well as all the little
bills that went along with them. Now replace that with the comparatively small
expense of staying in $5/night accommodation, and otherwise living on about
$20/day.
When I was planning my first long trip, taking the $2,000/month "keep life in
the US alive" line-item out of the spreadsheet extended my $10k budget from 2
months to 10 months. Bill a day per month, and yes, you're pretty much set for
life. Of course, you're only set for life if you don't plan on coming home, so
it's probably best to leave a bit in reserve for when you do.
~~~
hbt
I'm guessing those rates only apply for south-east asia and south america and
maybe some rural locations in Europe or eastern europe.
Out of curiosity, are you writing software or managing programmers remotely? I
tried traveling and working as a consultant but dual screens and comfy chairs
don't do well in a suitcase.
~~~
jasonkester
Given the option of a 22 inch monitor in a cube or a 12" thinkpad on a sandy
beach, it's amazing how quickly you can get used to coding with small fonts.
South America is more realistically $25/day all in. SE Asia, as mentioned is
about $20. Indonesia is more like $10. Africa is free.
~~~
kiddo
Can you elaborate on Africa being free?
~~~
jasonkester
Free enough that you don't need to think about it as an expense. I think I
bottomed out at $0.70 per night for a room in Malawi. Double that if you want
to splurge on something nicer.
------
micaelwidell
All you people suggesting "do both" - do you really know what you are talking
about? We may have different definitions of what a startup is.
If by startup, you mean a one man website that is some kind of low-maintenance
subscription service, then yeah sure, go travel the world.
But if you define startup as I do, as a venture-backed, aggressively growing
company employing people, then how the hell are you going to travel the world
while managing that? Please tell me if you have a way, because I would be
genuinely interested :)
~~~
swombat
I entirely agree. You can sustain a travelling lifestyle with web work,
whether a niche, "muse" product or freelancing work, but that's not a startup.
A startup requires a lot of "personal, on site" touch.
I put my thoughts together here too: [http://swombat.com/2010/12/27/startup-
vs-travelling-lifestyl...](http://swombat.com/2010/12/27/startup-vs-
travelling-lifestyle)
~~~
paraschopra
Hey, great blog post! Little nitpick: can you edit my name as 'Paras Chopra'?
I know my name is not exactly as easy as John Smith :)
~~~
swombat
Oops! Will fix as soon as I'm in front of my computer (on my iPhone now). I
hate it when people misspell my name... But to be fair, I did try to find your
full name and couldn't find it on your blog or on twitter, so I had to make a
guess :-)
~~~
HeyLaughingBoy
How can you misspell Smooth Wombat :-) I always wondered: is that a Bloom
County reference?
~~~
swombat
Nope... don't know what Bloom County is. It's just the last iteration that I
got to when I decided that my previous nick wasn't up to scratch...
~~~
HeyLaughingBoy
FYI: It is/was a newspaper comic strip. The relevant quote was "SMET: the
sound of a wet rag hitting a smooth weasel!"
------
simonw
We launched our startup <http://lanyrd.com/> while travelling around the world
- we got ill in Casablanca, Morocco during Ramadan, so we hired an apartment
for three weeks and launched the first version of the site. We've continued to
work on it while travelling around Egypt and South Africa.
Now that the site's starting to take off we're planning on staying in the same
place for a few months (still outside of our home country), but so far we've
found balancing the two less difficult than we had expected.
------
gommm
I think the problem is that it's a question of definition... A lot of people
here who say that it's possible to travel, define a startup as a smaller
"lifestyle" business... If you find a good niche it can bring good money while
taking less hours. See for example patio11 for an example of someone in that
camp, as a result of his experience and way of thinking he wrote
<http://www.kalzumeus.com/2009/10/04/work-smarter-not-harder/>
Now paraschopra's definition of a startup is closer to the traditional VC
backed, big payoff definition. He hopes to make it big, become a leader in the
field of A/B testing and get FU money...
None of those two ways of thinking are bad. It's essentially a question of
risk and reward... The first can lead to financial independence with a nice
recurring revenue (for example letsfreckle.com or one of my customer who earns
20 000$/month profit with his website while delegating all the work) and is
usually less riskier and less stressful.
The second type of company is more of a high risk high reward scenario where
if you get bought or IPO, you get enough FU money to truly have financial
independence...
So, it depends on where you stand on the risk/work reward scale... I don't
want to look back in a few years and feel that I've wasted my life trying to
earn it. So, while I do work long hours, I take breaks, I go on holidays and I
travel and use Wifi connections to do any urgent work that comes up. I don't
expect my business to be the next google, facebook or flickr but if it's
profitable and allow me to support a comfortable lifetime while eventually not
taking too much of my time I'll be happy..
------
elblanco
Travel, then startup. I'm kinda doing it backwards at the moment, but I did a
fair amount of traveling before going to work at this place and it was some of
the most valuable life experience I've ever had.
I think that if I can sum it up in a thought it's this: there is a remarkable
difference between reading and thinking and reasoning about a subject, and
actually experiencing it. Even if I don't use many of the facts I learned
while traveling (i.e. the odds and ends of the Knights of St. John's defense
of Rhodes against the Turks and their subsequent move to Malta), I learned
that it's one thing to read about the layered defense of Rhodes, and another
to actually walk among it.
In other words, I can read and reason all I want about the situation of my
customers, and their problems and solutions to those problems, but until I
actually get about working with them, in their space, on their problem set,
with their data, and within their constraints, I'll never really _get_ their
issues and thus never really provide a 1-1 solution for those issues.
It might seem like a simple concept, one I thought I understood before I set
about traveling far and wide, but I really _grokked_ it much better after
seeing the world and trying to understand.
(oh, and the never ending different national interpretations of historic world
events I find endlessly fascinating and very perspective setting -- very
helpful when understanding how to think like your customers)
------
senko
_You have to work extremely hard (think 100+ hours per week) for several
years_
<http://www.kalzumeus.com/2009/10/04/work-smarter-not-harder/>
~~~
paraschopra
Interestingly I'm mentioned in that blog post :)
But I still don't agree with that premise..
------
shin_lao
>Startup requires a lot of sacrifices from you. You have to work extremely
hard (think 100+ hours per week) for several years.
100 + hours of work per week?!
What kind of startup is this? That's 14 hours / day!
~~~
joshfraser
yep, sounds about right.
~~~
shin_lao
You need to hire people. If you can't afford to hire people, then you don't
have a business.
------
drKarl
I'd say travel now, and do a startup later. You need a kind of focus if you do
a startup that you just can't achieve when travelling.
~~~
bobds
Why not?
~~~
drKarl
Some posts here talk about living in a foreign country for some time while
doing a startup. That is different from travelling around the world. It's not
the same spending 2 or three months in the same place than spending just 1 or
2 days in a place and then continue travelling. In the latter assumption, I
don't see it viable.
~~~
bobds
Why do you have to spend only a couple days at each location?
My rule of thumb is I need to stay about a month at each location, so that I
don't feel rushed and it's worth the time to setup a temporary base.
A week-long vacation, trying to cram everything in the shortest amount of
time, is not real "traveling" for me.
------
prateekdayal
Why can't you work and travel? Many cities in the world have good wifi, cafes
and cheap hotels and its possible to work and travel at the same time.
In fact, it can be quite refreshing to meet different kinds of people (not
just more startup people). I did this for three months this year (lived in
Saigon) and I look forward to doing more of this in the coming years
~~~
jasonkester
I think I see a big false assumption in a lot of comments on this thread. That
being, that good wifi only exists in cities.
That's probably true in the US, and to a lesser extent Europe, but in places
like Southeast Asia, Central & South America, etc., the internet is
_everywhere_. As in, pick the most remote beach you can find, and so long as
there is a little grass hut to sell you beer, there will also be an internet
cafe.
The cool part is that the more off the beaten track you go, the cheaper things
get. Look in the jungle behind that beer-selling, wifi-having, hammock-laden
beach bar and you'l find rows of little bungalows that you can rent for $200
per _month_.
Bootstrap your startup on a beach like that and suddenly "ramen profitable"
becomes "paradise profitable", and you'll discover that you can live there
indefinitely on just a few dozen new paid accounts per month. Or, if you
prefer, do one day's worth of billable work per month to keep you living like
a king.
Don't forget to send us a postcard.
~~~
mdp
I'm typing this from my iPhone in a bar in Siem Reap, Cambodia, so forgive my
brevity and spelling.
Wifi might be prevalent in most places but quality and reliability will always
be am issue. I've found it to be ubiquitous is SE Asia, however I've had days
where slowness could cause even SSH to bog down to a few characters a minute.
Bigger issue, do you mean travel or live in a foreign country? Because yes,
you can very easily find a cheap country with good internet, but traveling
itself can be a full time job when you're only spending a week at a time in
one place.
If it were me, I'd just travel, and do the startup later.
~~~
toumhi
Hey, I'm thinking about stopping by in Siem Reap when I set off to southeast
asia (and start working on my project) in a few months. Do you have some tips
about good places to stop by in southeast asia?(by that i mean, interesting
places that are also work-friendly) Can I reach you somewhere (no contact on
your HN profile)?
------
jasonlbaptiste
Seriously, it can easily become an "and" statement right there. In the past 2
months, I've been in almost every major US city and that's without a huge
sales/marketing push. If you build the culture and company right you can
literally go anywhere for a good purpose:
a) telecommuting employees
b) visiting customers
c) potential recruiting
d) valuable conferences
Startups are a crazy crazy adventure.
------
elvirs
I would say if your startup is not in one of the current 'hot' spaces like
private shopping, group buying, etc. and can wait then definitely travel
around the world, but travel with a entrepreneur perspective, dont just spend
your money on the beaches drinking expensive cocktails :) travel the
countries, watch their economy, local business models. I thinks most of the
travel destinations are current emerging economies. Think about how technology
can facilitate the developments in those markets. Face the realities. Talk to
people from the industry your startup is aiming at in those countries. Note
everything, think about if your idea is applicable in those markets. How will
you expand if you decide to go global. Think big. After travel I think you
will have a more solid and healthier business idea with global perspective.
------
sashthebash
In a couple of weeks I will launch <http://storageroomapp.com> and a little
later move to Buenos Aires for a couple of months and work from there.
This of course has disadvantages, I cannot speak to local customers in person,
but on the other hand living is much cheaper and more interesting than at the
current place I call home.
I wouldn't want to manage a startup while traveling from place to place, but I
think it should be no problem to just work from somewhere else and do weekend
trips. This is exciting enough for me and I think I can get to know the world
better with a couple of short term stays than traveling non-stop.
If I feel I need to go home to make progress, I go home, otherwise I will
continue to live in different places all around the world.
------
rdl
I've done some startups in interesting places (Anguilla, Sealand, Iraq), and
decided to take 6 months to travel around the world diving before going full
time on my new startup (in Palo Alto). I figure once I have employees,
customers, etc., it will be several years before I can go on a stress-free
vacation.
While it's possible to travel and do certain kinds of "lifestyle" startup, I
think traveling around the world, or even extensive personal trips, are
incompatible with a high-intensity venture funded startup. It's just not fair
to the other team members who depend on you, your investors, etc. I can see
taking 4 weeks a year off (spread out a bit) as long as you stay reachable,
but that's about the limit.
------
maxklein
Traveling around the world solo while running a business is not going to work
out. If you travel in a group, it's possible.
~~~
dmix
Can you expand on why this is so?
~~~
maxklein
You will be lonely, and making new friends takes a lot of time away from your
work, and you'll not know where to get cheap stuff or where to go and all
that. If you just go to one place, it's doable, but travelling around the
world alone and trying to bootstrap something sounds near impossible.
------
setori88
do both, learn the needs of the people, find an interesting problem to solve,
then find an interesting city where you can teach English and earn a steady
income to finance your project.
------
joshfraser
I started to comment before deciding to turn it into a blog post instead:
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2042452>
------
jkaljundi
Whatever you do, enjoy every minute and day of doing it. Don't make it feel
like a sacrifice, waiting for that magical future to happen. Worst thing you
could do is run a startup and feel bad about it or that you are missing out on
something. Happiness is in the here, in the now.
------
charlesju
I swear someone really famous wrote a book on this...
~~~
chadp
haha. . does it start with a 4 by any chance ;)
------
Guatejon
I don't really see the point of doing a start up to fund some vague future
travel. If you want to travel go travel.
------
robterrell
If you have to ask, travel.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
The Rebirth of the Electric Car - kkim
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/20/technology/circuits/20pogue-email.html?em&ex=1190692800&en=c4572a9473ca5e29&ei=5087%0A
======
ivankirigin
Electric cars have ALWAYS been about the batteries. Good motors and
lightweight frames have been around for decades.
You need to have a charge time of less than a few hours and you need to be
able to travel more than 200 miles for more people to buy it.
Check out ZAP cars for some good options <http://www.zapworld.com/>
~~~
dcurtis
I think the goal of the electric car should not be how fast it charges or how
far it goes, but rather... when will the car be able to drive indefinitely off
the power of the sun coming through the frame of the car?
That should be the seventy-year goal for electric car design. This is a good
start though. But where does the electricity that charges the battery come
from?
~~~
ivankirigin
Solar is not the most efficient means of producing electricity, so why should
that be the goal? The cost in energy of manufacturing today's cells means the
cells need to generate electricity for 20 years before they return their
energy investment.
~~~
dcurtis
You're forgetting that by using solar power, you're not using fossil fuels
anymore. You save an extremely large amount of environmental damage even
though the process of producing solar cells might not be very efficient today.
------
andreyf
1 karma to whoever figures out what PR firm is behind this :)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Page Weight Matters (2012) - shubhamjain
http://blog.chriszacharias.com/page-weight-matters
======
nostrademons
When I joined Google in 2009, we were on the tail-end of a latency
optimization kick that Larry had started in 2007. At the time, we had a budget
of 20K gzipped for the entire search results page. I remember working on the
visual redesign of 2010, where we had increased the page weight from 16K to
19K and there was much handwringing at the higher levels about how we were
going to blow our _entire_ latency budget on one change.
We did some crazy stuff to squeeze everything in. We would literally count
bytes on every change - one engineer wrote a tool that would run against your
changelist demo server and output the difference in gzipped size of it. We
used 'for(var i=0,e;e=arr[i++];) { ... }' as our default foreach loop because
it was one character shorter than explicitly incrementing the loop counter.
All HTML tags that could be left unterminated were, and all attributes that
could be unquoted were. CSS classnames were manually named with 1-3 character
abbreviations, with a dictionary elsewhere, to save on bytesize. I ran an
experiment to see if we could use JQuery on the SRP (everything was done in
raw vanilla JS), and the results were that it _doubled_ the byte size and
latency of the SRP, so that was a complete non-starter. At one point I had to
do a CSS transition on an element that didn't exist in the HTML, because it
was too heavy and so we had to pull it over via AJAX, so I had to do all sorts
of crazy contortions to predict the height and position of revealed elements
before the code for them actually existed on the client.
A lot of these convolutions should've been done by compiler, and indeed, a lot
were moved to one when we got an HTML-aware templating language. But it gave
me a real appreciation for how to write tight, efficient code under
constraints - real engineering, not just slapping libraries together.
Alas, when I left the SRP was about 350K, which is atrocious. It looks like
it's since been whittled down under 100K, but I still sometimes yearn for the
era when Google loaded instantaneously.
~~~
kuschku
Remember, [http://google.com/custom](http://google.com/custom) still loads
instantly ;)
~~~
chinathrow
Yeah and no TLS handshakes need to be performed either.
~~~
ksrm
Why don't they provide an HTTPS version of this? It's a bit of a shame.
------
dpweb
If you have an engineering mind and care about such things - you care about
complexity. Even if you don't - user experience matters to everyone.
Have you ever seen something completely insane and everyone around doesn't
seem to recognize how awful it really is. That is the web of today. 60-80
requests? 1MB+ single pages?
Your functionality, I don't care if its Facebook - does not need that much. It
is not necessary. When broadband came on the scene, everyone started to ignore
it, just like GBs of memory made people forget about conservation.
The fact that there isn't a daily drumbeat about how bloated, how needlessly
complex, how ridicuous most of the world's web appliactions of today really
are - baffles me.
~~~
jkaptur
Honestly, I think "a daily drumbeat about how bloated, how needlessly complex,
how ridiculous most of the world's web applications really are" pretty much
describes every HN conversation on any article with even a remote connection
to web technologies.
~~~
kragen
What would be super awesome would be a daily drumbeat about how to slim down
and simplify applications, with working, open-sourced code.
Here, I'll beat a drum a little. Maybe it will inspire somebody.
I just wrote this tiny text-rendering engine, mostly yesterday at lunch. On
one core of my laptop, it seems able to render 60 megabytes per second of text
into pixels in a small proportional pixel font, with greedy-algorithm word
wrap. That means it should be able to render all the comments on this Hacker
News comment page in 500 microseconds. (I haven't yet written box-model layout
for it yet, but I think that will take less time to run, just because there
are so many fewer layout boxes than there are pixel slices of glyphs.)
[http://canonical.org/~kragen/sw/dev3/propfont.c](http://canonical.org/~kragen/sw/dev3/propfont.c)
The executable, including the font, is a bit under 6 kilobytes, or 3 kilobytes
gzipped.
~~~
titzer
Impressive!
~~~
kragen
Thank you, but I don't think it's impressive! It's still nearly an order of
magnitude slower than memcpy(). But if we want simpler systems, I think doing
experiments like this is a big part of how to get there.
------
jonahx
This is a fascinating example of Simpson's Paradox:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simpson%27s_paradox](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simpson%27s_paradox)
It also reminds me of the phenomenon, in customer service, whereby an increase
in complaints can sometimes indicate success -- it means the product has gone
from bad enough to be unnoticeable to good enough to be engaged with.
~~~
jfoutz
In WW1, helmets were introduced to protect soldiers. Surprisingly the
frequency of head wounds went way up. It took a little while to realize
soldiers were "just" being wounded, rather than outright killed if they had no
helmet.
~~~
BostonEnginerd
There's a similar story about putting armor on planes during WWII -
[http://www.johndcook.com/blog/2008/01/21/selection-bias-
and-...](http://www.johndcook.com/blog/2008/01/21/selection-bias-and-bombers/)
------
lnanek2
Pretty funny story considering YouTube is back to unusable on slow
connections. They used to buffer the full video, so you could load up a page,
let it sit until the video buffers, then watch it eventually, maybe after
reading your social news sites. Nowadays the buffering feature has been
removed and you'll just come back, hit play, get a second or two of video,
then it has nothing again for a long time.
Feels bad for the engineer who spent all that time reducing the size and
finding out it made YouTube much more usable across the globe. Amusingly,
disabling buffering was probably some penny wise pound foolish way to save
bandwidth.
~~~
flippant
It's for the average user with a decent connection that skips parts of a
video. This is tedious, but if you want to buffer a YouTube video try youtube-
dl[0] or using VLC.
[0][https://rg3.github.io/youtube-dl/](https://rg3.github.io/youtube-dl/)
------
beatpanda
I went to work for a company that makes a travel product used by people in
almost every country in the world, after trying to use it in southeastern
Europe. I told them their page weight was killing the experience, and wanted
to join the front end team to fix it.
After 6 months of banging my head against a wall, I realized the reason we
weren't fixing page weight was because our product managers _didn 't care_
about the experience of users in poorer countries, because they didn't have
any money to spend anyway. Even though we had lots of users in those
countries, and even though we made a big show of how you could use this app to
travel anywhere in the world.
If there's a lesson there, its that as long as cold economic calculations
drive product decisions, this stuff isn't going to get any better.
------
Splines
If you're on Windows you can use the Network Emulator for Windows Toolkit
(NEWT):
[http://blogs.technet.com/b/juanand/archive/2010/03/05/standa...](http://blogs.technet.com/b/juanand/archive/2010/03/05/standalone-
network-emulator-tool.aspx)
I've used it to emulate what it's like on a high-latency or high-loss network.
Relatively easy tool to use.
~~~
latortuga
Chrome also has this feature if you switch to device mode (Ctrl+Shift+M).
------
motoboi
Coming from a low bandwidth, high latency part of the world, I can't confirm
this enough.
Today, I have 2 mbit and can use Netflix or Youtube just fine, but mere 4
years ago, I had 600k and, boy, that was hard. Hard as in loading youtube URL
and go for a coffee.
UPDATE:
In case Duolingo developers are listening, please test your site on high
latency and very low bandwidth scenarios. I just love your site, but lessons
behave too strangely when internet is bad here.
~~~
malka
> Hard as in loading youtube URL and go for a coffee.
You can't even to that now. Youtube videos buffer about 1m30 of videos and
stops after that :(
~~~
voltagex_
I understand that Google is doing this to save an immense amount of wasted
bandwidth. These days if I need to wait for something to load, I use youtube-
dl.
------
teach
Comments from the last time this was posted:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4957992](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4957992)
~~~
tedunangst
Wow. The verge was the poster child for most bloated site even three years
ago, long before the recent ruckus.
~~~
mattmanser
What was the recent ruckus?
~~~
tedunangst
[http://blog.lmorchard.com/2015/07/22/the-verge-web-
sucks/](http://blog.lmorchard.com/2015/07/22/the-verge-web-sucks/)
------
SandB0x
It is insane. One of my favourites is the "about.me" site, which is meant to
be a simple online business card. Picking a random page from
[https://about.me/people/featured](https://about.me/people/featured), you get
a page weighing over 3MB!
[http://tools.pingdom.com/fpt/#!/F4VDN/https://about.me/penta...](http://tools.pingdom.com/fpt/#!/F4VDN/https://about.me/pentatonicfunk)
------
mbrock
Everyone's sometimes on spotty WiFi or foreign expensive 3G. I'm more inclined
to trust fast-loading sites and apps.
I wonder what would happen if for example iOS decided to visually indicate
page weight, kind of like how you can see which apps use the most energy.
~~~
peterjmag
I think that's a great idea. Make it more visible, and then you get normal
people to care about it and put pressure on content owners, developers, etc.
Like Google did with their "mobile-friendly" tag; I could yell at my managers
all day about how we need to improve our site's mobile experience to no avail,
but Google steps in and threatens lower rankings and suddenly it becomes top
priority.
Perhaps the simplest solution is for Google to start penalizing heavy pages,
but as far as I know, page weight isn't part of their mobile-friendly
criteria.
------
gketuma
As a web dev I always have this in mind but the challenge is convincing your
client who wants a video background. Maybe we need a media query that detects
internet speed.
~~~
scrollaway
Even then, it's fairly easy to load the video asynchronously and as part of
the last assets, make its intro blend in to a single-color background, voila,
problem "solved".
I find video backgrounds ridiculous most of the time (though they can be done
really well), but that's not the real problem here - the real problem is
including 200-800kb javascript code that does nothing but track your user, and
often enough doesn't do it for _you_! (Hi Facebook!)
The real problem is using massive js frameworks for the sake of adding dynamic
functionality to your site that, often enough, isn't actually worth it.
The real problem is that very often, these "features" are only as necessary as
the marketing team says they are... the people who have the ability to ask
"why?" and the ability to understand "why not" don't have the voice (or
guts...) to do so.
~~~
pswilson14
"Massive" JS frameworks aren't the issue, not by themselves. AngularJS, for
instance, is only 39.5kb. Bloat sneaks into web applications in other ways,
but merely bringing in a framework isn't enough to add a noticeable load on a
web page.
~~~
kuschku
I’ve seen sites loading Angular, React, jQuery(+jQuery UI) and some custom
frameworks. Different parts of the site rendering in different frameworks.
------
misterbwong
Isn't this phenomenon getting worse now that responsive design is in vogue?
We've collectively decided to shoehorn a website designed for the connectivity
and speed of a desktop browser into a lower powered device with slower/spotty
connectivity.
Genuinely curious: Why is this better than a mobile-friendly site designed
specifically with the constraints of a mobile device in mind?
~~~
jonahx
Simple answer: Writing a responsive site is much faster and easier to maintain
than creating two versions of the same site. And it wouldn't it be just two,
you also have to support tablets, various desktop sizes, and various mobile
sizes. Custom versions for each one isn't feasible.
Also, if you care about page and weight and optimization, your site will be
light everywhere, and the criticism of shoehorning a big bloated desktop site
into a phone won't apply. This is not that difficult to achieve.
------
paulirish
More than page weight, this article demonstrates that _averages are dangerous_
, especially for performance metrics. All key metrics should be plotted in
50/90/95/99 percentiles, and for latency-sensitive ones, geographic breakouts
can often reveal a serious delta from the mean.
------
bsimpson
Thought certainly an interesting anecdote, I don't understand how a video
streaming site like YouTube would be useful in a market where a 100K download
takes 2+ minutes. You'd have to open a page, walk away for an hour, and hope
everything was OK when you got back.
~~~
IkmoIkmo
Well think about it. Imagine you had no alternative to getting any video on
the internet? After all, if not youtube, anything else was probably slower at
the time. Obviously you wouldn't simply lose the desire to watch relevant
videos, it'd be dimmed quite significantly sure but you'd still want to watch
a video every now and then. Whether it's a music video, or a chess match or a
farming lecture, there's just a ridiculous amount of content available. I have
plenty of videos I'd want to watch even if I'd have to wait hours. (take
torrenting for example, or pre-youtube & pre-streaming file sharing, video and
music on p2p networks were incredibly slow yet incredibly popular).
But if you couldn't even load the pages to browse through the videos, that'd
pretty significantly reduce your watching even further.
Liken it perhaps to a library where you could only get 1 book per week. Well
that's not much, but at least you can get 1 book. But if you go to the library
you have to wait in line for an hour, and after examining one book section of
10 books, you have to wait 5 minutes to examine the next one. Choosing the
weekly book would become such a chore you'd probably not even bother to go
anymore. But if you'd suddenly be able to examine the entire library with only
1 minute of total waiting, many more would be much more inclined to do so,
even if they could still only borrow 1 book per week.
Beyond that in my experience, lots of requests in a slow connection often
fails before completing fully. I don't know why exactly, I've never been a
network engineer. While streaming in a slow connection eventually gets there.
So it's entirely possible that even browsing normal pages was failing entirely
before for some people, even though (if they ever did load the page and choose
a video), the video download worked fine albeit at a very slow pace.
~~~
CDRdude
> you'd still want to watch a video every now and then
My favorite example of this is YouTube repair tutorials. If I need to get
something done, these can be irreplaceable. If I had a slow connection, but my
car was up on the jack stand, I'd just have to wait.
------
andrewstuart2
Page weight may matter, but I think amortized page weight matters most. It's
like the marshmallow experiment for the web. If you can make one request at
10x the size, but it's only made 1/100th as often (presumably spans multiple
pages) then as long as people come back enough to justify that initial extra
cost, you've effectively decreased to 1/10th again.
That's why I think AJAX, web manifest [1], indexedDB, localStorage, etc. need
to be leveraged much more. Imagine most of your app loading without making a
single request, except for the latest front page JSON, or the latest . You
have a bunch already in indexedDB so you just ask the server "hey, what's new
after ID X or timestamp T?"
So your two minutes just became a couple milliseconds (or whatever your disk
latency happens to be), and the data loads shortly thereafter, assuming
there's not much new data to send back. And if you don't need any new
resources, you only had to make a single request.
[1] [https://github.com/w3c/manifest](https://github.com/w3c/manifest)
~~~
nostrademons
The _initial_ page load matters a lot. That's the one where the user is
deciding whether he'll be coming back to your site. The unfortunate thing
about many caching technologies is that they speed up subsequent page loads,
but do nothing for the initial one. You still need to pay attention to clean-
cache load times. Indeed, it can often be worth it to pay a cost on total page
load time to get first-paint time down - that's the time at which the first
visual representation of the webpage appears, even if it's just the header,
layout, and a bunch of boxes.
------
jjzieve
For some reason this whole problem reminds me of early game developers dealing
with small amounts of RAM. Which clearly isn't a problem today. So would it be
fair to say we should focus on increasing bandwidth to most of the world. I'm
not saying page weight doesn't matter, but if you're just trying to get
something off the ground maybe you shouldn't worry about it so much. I mean,
why worry about users with poor bandwidth, if you don't even have users? If
you already have a growing user base, then by all means refactor, reduce the
footprint. But if you don't, code the damn bloated thing first.
~~~
PavlovsCat
Sure, most games these days are probably more CPU/GPU bound, but then again
people usually don't have more than one game running at a time, while caching
the assets of thousands more.
Also, isn't adding bloat "more work"? And just like in real life, I think
losing bloat is often harder than gaining it. Why not worry about carousels or
endless scrolling or video background when even just _one_ person misses that
stuff? Where are all the highly successful websites that started to reduce
bloat after they got off the ground? It's not a rhetorical question or
sarcasm, I am interested, but I honestly can't think of even one example, it
doesn't really mesh with my own (admittedly rather pedestrian) experience. A
site starts with a blank design doc, and empty file and a white screen, and
adding something and later removing it isn't easier than simply not adding it
in the first place.
------
nicolethenerd
Nice to see this again - I've told this story to many of my web dev students.
:-)
------
cr4zy
I highly recommend turning on page throttling in the Chrome Dev Tools
sometime. You'll be amazed at even how slow even 4G seems.
------
hyperion2010
Heh, I've been using flask tempting to make some html forms for exploring
large datasets. Turns out when you have 6000 terms that show up in 6 different
UI elements putting those in as raw html results in a 13mb file that
compresses down to 520kb. Pretty awful use case for forms. I'm pretty
prejudiced against JavaScript, but having seen this I now deeply appreciate
being able to send something other than raw html.
------
secondwtq
" I learned a valuable lesson about the state of the Internet throughout the
rest of the world. Many of us are fortunate to live in high bandwidth regions,
but there are still large portions of the world that do not. "
lol, I'm in China and all what you're discussing just does not exists here.
What you'll get is just a "Connection Reset", no matter how compact the page
is.
------
foxbarrington
If it takes two minutes to load a 100kb page, does it take twenty minutes to
watch a 1MB video? Over three hours to watch a 10MB video?
~~~
gwern
Probably not. Downloading the video is going to depend more on throughput than
on latency. The initial connection & page load, as it hits all the domains and
resources, is going to be much slower because it relies more on latency and
roundtrips.
~~~
Brakenshire
The article says that the page would have taken 20 minutes to load under
previous circumstances.
------
csense
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
I remember visiting microprose.com with my 14.4k modem in the mid-90s and
being mad that they used so many images I had to wait for about 5-10 minutes
or so. I couldn't effectively read it at home and usually ended up reading it
at the library.
------
userbinator
This is a bit tangential, but how did we get from "size" to "weight"? It seems
a bit of an odd phrasing to me. With the exception of ESL mistakes, I don't
know of anyone or any software which refers to "file weight", for example.
~~~
plonh
Because the weight is hidden behind the visible page content, which had a
different size. Page weight is the sum of the sizes of the resources used to
build the page.
------
ninjakeyboard
If it took two minutes to load the framing page, how would they be able to
stream the video?
------
pneumaio
It's not surprising large numbers of internet users in emerging markets
skipped the web entirely. Delivering product via SMS and chat starts to make a
lot of sense in context.
------
drikerf
Great point and very important in times when bundling howmany? js dependencies
for client apps.
------
chadwittman
Fantastic
~~~
imperialdrive
Ditto - Loved reading this. I work on similar projects but it's a tough battle
to win against marketing these days.
------
sirtastic
WOW! Faster load times and lighter code makes for a better user experience?
(mindblown)
~~~
jp555
whoosh! You missed the whole point.
~~~
sirtastic
That you can't always look at a single metric as a basis for success? This is
rudimentary analytics here. Is there a single person who believes making
client side code heavy is the way to go? Do people really think user
experience should take a back seat to cool stuff on a site like YouTube?
~~~
tedunangst
Try "what makes a site merely inconvenient for some can render it completely
unusable for others, and so one should not overlook minor issues because they
don't seem worth fixing."
~~~
sirtastic
Excuse me. I didn't realize this wasn't obvious.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: Why aren't you using a public cloud? - pythonovice
I'm curious to learn reasons why your company is not use a public cloud platform such as AWS, Azure, GCP, etc.?
======
joefourier
Dedicated hosting is much better bang for your buck, especially for bandwidth.
If you do something like video streaming and have relatively predictable
loads, I've found that you have to pay at least an order of magnitude more
with public cloud compared to dedicated servers on OVH or Datapacket. Maxing
out a 2gbps server on Datapacket would cost you just $320/month for 648 TB of
outgoing bandwidth monthly, versus at least $6,480 just for the bandwidth on
Amazon S3.
For venture-backed startups with an emphasis on growth or large scale
enterprises, the convenience of the cloud may outweigh the cost premium. But
for small to medium size organizations where server load doesn't fluctuate on
a day-to-day basis, I haven't yet been convinced that the cloud offers a good
enough value proposition.
~~~
ChicagoDave
Even if you're running everything else serverless and have no compute time at
all?
I know a VOD training service runs serverless with videos on S3 and they're
very successful.
~~~
vidarh
Bandwidth on S3 costs something like 50x what I'm usually paying for bandwidth
(Hetzner etc.) or 5x what you'll get from smaller cloud providers.
You can be successful on AWS, but you're leaving money on the table, and for
relatively commodity services it's just a question of time before a competitor
realise they can do the same with much better margins and lower prices
elsewhere.
If your hosting is a small portion of your costs, that might not matter, so I
have certainly run services on AWS too, and do in my current job as well, but
it's a very expensive convenience. I've yet to come across any systems I know
the internals off that couldn't cut hosting costs by moving off public cloud
services.
~~~
mseebach
The "commodity" distinction feel very significant here. Parent mentioned
training videos, so probably very much not commodity. If you're selling
something at $10/unit, it doesn't matter if your bandwidth costs are ¢0.05 or
¢2.5/unit. You're technically leaving money on the table, yes, but probably
not enough to justify the added infrastructure complexity.
~~~
vidarh
> but probably not enough to justify the added infrastructure complexity.
If you want to avoid infrastructure complexity, I'd go for dedicated hosting
most of the time. Most of my past clients have ended up paying for more hours
on operations for AWS setups than for dedicated. AWS and similar tends to
force a lot of ceremony, some of which is good, but a lot of which is
unnecessary on dedicated setups or on premises setups.
But yes, if your costs per unit are that low, I've typically told clients it
largely depends on what they're most comfortable with. Some then pick AWS and
it's a perfectly good choice.
What I'm seeing though, is that a lot of people pick AWS without first pricing
out the options, and then later end up with expensive migrations to get off
it.
~~~
mseebach
Yes, of course. "Added complexity" was meant in the context of already having
decided that the AWS ecosystem is valuable (parent mentioned running
serverless, so presumably that is the case).
------
ajdecon
I’ve worked in a few different settings on large-scale scientific computing.
For those applications:
\- Not cost-efficient at large scale. When you expect and plan to run
thousands of nodes at near 100% CPU and memory usage for years at a time,
running a machine room can still be less expensive.
\- Specialized hardware not available in public clouds, e.g., very low latency
networks configured in an optimal topology.
\- Lack of control over hardware upgrade schedule. E.g., a cloud probably
won’t give you those shiny new GPUs as early as you can shove them in your own
servers.
The balance is shifting in many of these areas, and there’s plenty of
scientific computing that can use a public cloud now. But I still wouldn’t use
it for problems that are both highly CPU-intensive and require low latency
networks, especially if I have long-term workloads.
~~~
ktpsns
(Mostly academic) high performance computing (HPC) has clearly different needs
from what typical cloud computing services can provide. The setup and
operation costs of a medium size (~1k nodes, ~25k cores) university computing
centre in Europe costs at the order of 1MEur per year, not even speaking about
the large national centers with with 10-100k nodes and 100k to 1M cores. At
these level of computing it is quite sensible to do it in-house, especially if
the engineering challenges are welcome scientific research topics on their own
(such as energy efficient HPC, research on distributed file systems or job
queueing systems, usage of accelerator cards).
By the way, at one point, in science, there is already such a kind of
computing cloud: We call it
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grid_computing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grid_computing)
------
johnklos
There's a trend for people to give up all of their information without the
slightest regards for privacy or possible abuse. People do this with Facebook
by allowing Facebook to, quite literally, track them throughout pretty much
all aspects of life - communications, personal habits, photos, location,
purchasing, et cetera.
On the business side, there's this trend to stick everything in to "the cloud"
and just trust it's OK because everyone else is doing it.
It seems it's too much effort for people to imagine all the ways this could go
wrong. Some of us, though, actually think and care and don't simply believe
everything we're told.
What happens when we find out the true extent that our information is being
used against us? For a majority of us, it'll be too late because chasing fads
and trends and doing what everyone else is doing is too appealing, somehow.
For those of us who are too paranoid to just hand over data, you can't even
say we're wrong any more - just look at what Edward Snowden taught us about
the extent to which our own government has been flagrantly disregarding the
law. Keep in mind that's barely scratching the surface.
------
CyanLite2
Cloud migration specialist here. Biggest thing I see is the culture. Large
shops will be 80% infrastructure and 20% developers. Infrastructure folks
almost always will be fired after a successful cloud migration. Middle
Managers want to keep a large staff and budget to justify themselves. CIOs
often come up through the infrastructure career path and don’t trust firewalls
if they aren’t made by Cisco or SANs that they can’t touch. (“So you’re
telling me that their homemade switches are better than Cisco?”) I even had a
CIO of a Fortune 1000 ask me what brand of fiber optic cables are in use in
AWS. Overall it’s mostly shops putting their head in the sand hoping they can
go another 2-3 Years in their cushy “Director of Infrastructure” jobs.
Most of my success comes not from selling to IT but the CFO or Board. Once
they realize they can eliminate a dozen or so SAN Storage or networking
engineers then the cloud doesn’t seem so expensive after all.
~~~
toomuchtodo
Conversely, I’ve seen executives fired out the door when the public cloud
costs were much higher than on prem costs, and the savings didn’t materialize
(either the execs had drank the cloud koolaid, or the business changed
direction).
Edit: There is no silver bullet. Model your needs, make sure your model is
accurate. You might still be wrong if your model doesn’t match reality due to
unanticipated deviations.
------
djhaskin987
Do you Uber to work everyday? I don't. I use it occasionally but most of the
time I drive my car to work.
Cloud is best for handling spike workloads, not day to day.
~~~
vidarh
This is the key. And worth pointing out that the moment you're set up to use
cloud services for spikes, the cost of using dedicated services for your base
load _drops_ :
You can afford to let the servers handling your base load get much closer to
capacity when you know you can scale up near instantly instead of having to
provision new servers.
This is the biggest reason for me to run services that are prepared to run on
public clouds, though it's very rare I've ever needed to make use of it - the
kind of spikes that are severe enough and long lasting enough to be worth
provisioning cloud instances for tends to be very rare for most people.
------
virmundi
Cost. Linode is cheaper than AWS if you are willing to do your own ops. Lack
of vendor lock in. Yes, AWS provides load balancing. When you look at their
offerings they hook you by offering thing their way. You can use AWS messaging
or run Rabbit. Many people start to adopt AWS since they are deployed there
rather than thinking about doing things on their own.
~~~
softwaredoug
+1 to vendor lock-in. Being an AWS shop can start feeling like being a Windows
shop in the 90s... it can creep up on you. You _mostly_ have an open source
app and slowly start acruing bits of AWS only functionality. A bit of SQS
here... S3 here... Lambda there.
Before you know it your giant app is stuck on proprietary infra and core
business functionality involves paying a significant tax to keep things
operational.
I’m a big fan of hosted open source for this reason. But those hosts too have
incentives to sell you proprietary “value add” functionality.
------
notamy
Price. It's SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper for me to run high bandwidth/CPU
applications on dedicated hardware from ex. OVH. I end up only spending a few
hundred a month on hosting vs. thousands or tens of thousands. Tools like
Rancher / Saltstack / etc. work just fine for me without being in The
Cloud(tm) too, so nothing is pushing me to switch.
------
CM30
If you're running a small project, it's more expensive than traditional
hosting.
Also, don't particularly trust the likes of Amazon, Google or Microsoft, and
don't want to give them any more power.
------
thdxr
Dedicated servers are now as easy to manage as cloud vms because good
dashboards + management tooling have become cloud agnostic. I use Kubernetes +
Rancher to manage a cluster of dedicated servers and it's a fraction of the
cost as a public cloud.
~~~
gorbypark
What dedicated host do you use?
------
toomuchtodo
Regulatory compliance, risk management, security controls, business
continuity/SLAs, and cost.
Financial services industry.
~~~
closeparen
Those seem like problems the public cloud providers would be highly motivated
to solve. Why haven’t they?
~~~
anothergoogler
Business continuity: Providing a good SLA isn't in the AWS business model,
which allows for widespread, lengthy outages. They have a so-so SLA and if
they miss you get AWS credits, big whoop. They make their money on people who
are insensitive to high cost, middling performance and reliability. Not sure
about the other providers. At a certain point it's cheaper and easier to do it
yourself than to support a hybrid cloud approach that can survive those
events. Financial services businesses can afford the higher quality.
~~~
closeparen
Sure, but is there some structural reason AWS can’t have an offering tailored
to requirements like yours, or have they simply not bothered to start one yet?
~~~
YawningAngel
It's expensive to do and most customers don't care, or even know.
------
vortico
Ignoring cost, security, etc, the biggest issue with a cloud platform is that
if you need a feature (custom networking arrangement, custom hardware, custom
kernel, custom software) and the provider haven't implemented it yet, you're
dead in the water. Dedicated, colocated, and virtual private servers are
harder to set up, but being able to treat them as normal computers saves you
in the long run.
------
ChicagoDave
I suspect there's still a lot of FUD regarding public cloud as well as on-prem
admins and engineers actively pushing back for fear of losing their jobs.
(I've seen this in action)
There certainly are legitimate reasons not to move to public cloud, but it
shouldn't be an emotional one.
Measure cost (including manpower), SLA's, performance, governance, and
compliance. After that it should be simple to stay on-prem, go hybrid, or move
full force into public cloud.
I think a more complex problem is that many companies have legacy web
applications that probably should be rebuilt cloud-native/serverless. Doing a
lift and shift can be cost-effective, but decomposing these applications and
rebuilding them in serverless would probably provide significant savings.
~~~
gaius
_as on-prem admins and engineers actively pushing back for fear of losing
their jobs._
The funny thing is: those jobs already went years ago outsourced to “smart
hands” in the DC. You still need people to plan and operate all this stuff.
SAs who make the jump willingly have nothing to fear from cloud.
~~~
Spooky23
A lot of the folks in these roles have gotten lazy in legacy jobs. Lots of
enterprise ops organizations are doing stuff with 10 people that could be done
with 3.
------
houstoncorridor
I worked in IT for a large energy company as a developer. The market cap of
said company is in the tens of billions.
We did use Office 365 because those people had our CIOs ear and gave various
discounts to lock us into the MSFT stack, but in-house development was all
deployed to our own hardware. Other platforms we ran as part of IT (databases,
ERP, analytics) also all were inhouse.
The number one reason were not running all we could on AWS or Azure could be
broken down as follows
1) we didn't have the technical knowledge to make the transition 2) the people
who were interested in this at all were the younger kids out of college 3) the
company is run by older white males who don't trust the younger kids (FTE) and
certainly don't trust the IT contractors 4) there was massive resistance to
change, even when our industry is bleeding because of low energy prices and
little to no profitability 5) Fundamental misunderstanding or lack of
understanding of how to secure out data in the cloud 6) business people saw IT
as a barrier to innovation 7) IT was very risk averse and with business people
not trusting them, it only reinforced their inability to progress
As for [5], we had numerous conversations with MSFT and AWS about trying to
run their cloud on premise. We were convinced that we can protect our data
better (even though it's not our company's vote competency) than companies
like AWS, who are literally in this exact business.
Yeah for all that and other reasons, I left.
------
mand1575
Old culture and security concerns being in finance. Though that's breaking
down. Once you adopt a product built on the cloud (SaaS offering), the first
level of integration is nightmare from the corporate datacenter. Once it takes
the toll, thats when you begin to see the mindset change.
It's been 2 years of grind and umpteen number of powerpoint but I see a sea
change and hopefully soon....
------
r1ch
Far too expensive vs dedicated servers for our infrastructure. Bandwidth alone
would cost more than all our servers combined.
------
api
We use OVH and Hetzner dedicated (2X providers, 5X data centers for
redundancy). Our application is CPU bound and it's approximately 10X cheaper
than AWS/MS/Google and 3-5X cheaper than Vultr and Digital Ocean. If you need
a lot of CPU bare metal is vastly more cost effective. It's also a bit faster.
Bare metal is only a little more work to set up if you're using orchestration
and provisioning tools. We use Chef and Consul/Nomad.
IMHO Amazon and the other big cloud providers are _not_ a good deal if you
only need compute, storage, and bandwidth and if you have any in-house IT
expertise. They only make sense if you're taking full advantage of all their
managed services e.g. S3, Redshift, managed SQL, lambda, etc. If you only need
raw compute and bandwidth the smaller providers (DO, Vultr) and bare metal
(OVH, Hetzner) are _far_ better deals.
~~~
anothergoogler
Are you managing the OVH and Hetzner hosts (provisioning) by hand, using
general-purpose tools (Terraform etc.), or tools you've built custom against
the providers' APIs?
------
Arbinv
Cloud is a utility and therefore needs to be used like a utility. What this
means is you need to turn things off when they are not being used. Something
like 50% of workloads in public cloud have 'the potential' to be turned off as
they are non-production. The public cloud providers provided the easy button
to spin things up but turning things off is more tricky. This is why we built
www.parkmycloud.com Others have rolled their own scripts to achieve the same
goal or use other methods to achieve the same goal albeit not as good as our
solution ;)). Based on our analysis if you use Reserved Instances for Prod and
schedule Non-Prod to be turned off when not being used, you will get a better
overall ROI than on prem.
------
glup
Academic lab in computational cognitive science / computational linguistics:
we haven’t transitioned fully because of storage costs. ~$10 tb/month even for
infrequent s3 storage is way too much when we have lots of 10+ tb datasets.
Otherwise it’s great to be able to scale compute (scale the number of
machines/ cores / GPUs as necessary) and to maintain different images for
different projects (NVIDIA driver, cudnn, TensorFlow version). Open to
solutions for the storage problem!
~~~
uruk
Azure Blob Storage can be way cheaper than that.
[https://azure.microsoft.com/en-
us/services/storage/blobs/](https://azure.microsoft.com/en-
us/services/storage/blobs/)
~~~
toomuchtodo
Storing on your own hardware will always be cheaper (Backblaze has a great
blog post on explaining why they built out their own data storage nodes at
rented colo space because of this).
[https://www.backblaze.com/blog/petabytes-on-a-budget-how-
to-...](https://www.backblaze.com/blog/petabytes-on-a-budget-how-to-build-
cheap-cloud-storage/)
[https://www.backblaze.com/blog/wp-
content/uploads/2009/08/co...](https://www.backblaze.com/blog/wp-
content/uploads/2009/08/cost-of-a-petabyte-chart.jpg) (Cost of a Petabyte by
service vs DIY)
~~~
scarface74
If the one Backblaze data center gets hit by a meteor, all your data is toast.
I use BackBlaze for backups, I wouldn't trust them for primary storage.
~~~
toomuchtodo
Same with every other cloud provider. They don't provide georedundancy unless
you design for it and pay for extra copies of your data to be stored.
~~~
scarface74
You don't have to "design for it". The default storage class for S3 is your
data is automstically copied across three data centers. You have to explicitly
specify "reduced redundancy". Yes you pay for it, but you don't have to do
anything special.
~~~
toomuchtodo
Not three data centers. Different zones in the same geographic datacenter.
Significant difference.
~~~
scarface74
I purposefully didn't use Amazon's wording because it would be confusing to
someone who doesn't know about AWS.
An "availability zone" is an isolated data center. A "region" is a group of
availability zones that are geographically isolated but somewhat close to each
other.
For instance, three availability zones (data centers) that are within 100
miles (making up a distance) would make up a region.
~~~
toomuchtodo
All of AWS' "zones" are very close to each other based on measured network
latency between zone resources.
~~~
scarface74
They are not in "the same geographic data center".
Amazon says:
[https://docs.aws.amazon.com/AWSEC2/latest/UserGuide/using-
re...](https://docs.aws.amazon.com/AWSEC2/latest/UserGuide/using-regions-
availability-zones.html)
"Each region is completely independent. Each Availability Zone is isolated,
but the Availability Zones in a region are connected through low-latency
links".
Backblaze hosts everything in one non redundant data center.
------
swebs
Not a company, but I've found Nextcloud to be a better alternative to Dropbox,
Google Drive, etc for personal use. I don't think Google even got around to
putting out a Linux client. The straw that broke the camel's back with Dropbox
was when I accidentally unzipped the MNIST dataset in a watched folder and the
Dropbox sync client completely shit the bed. I couldn't even fix it through
the web interface since their site is such a mess.
------
watwut
The expectation is that the system will run many years, so there is more long-
term trust and control or own infrastructure. The same institution is still
maintaining some old systems.
Some of smaller cheaper systems do run in cloud, but nothing more important or
big yet. It takes time to gain trust.
------
jimaek
Too expensive
------
alireza94
At least for us there is a simple reason: We live in Iran and every major
public cloud company would immediately blocks any Iranian account, without
previous notice.
------
runjake
Everyone here is afraid of hosting PII/HIPAA/etc data in the cloud on "someone
else's" servers.
It's a very uphill battle.
------
patrickg_zill
I've been saved a few times over the years by being able to "put hands" on the
physical hard drives containing the data.
Example: a RAID1 setup, 2 drives. The drives used were literally made one
after the other: the serial numbers were sequential. When 1 drive failed, the
other drive failed too, at very nearly the same time.
Take drive out, mirror using ddrescue (took a long time) with retry, there was
32kb of data lost out of 400+GB and we never even really discovered what it
was - we figure it was either a corrupt image or a part of the installed OS
that was not used (such as a man page or text document).
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Where can we find a cofounder for a promising & growing product? - razasaeed
We are a growing software consulting company and to fulfill our own hiring needs , we built a very simple & easy to use(inspired by 37signals) applicant tracking system called Simplicant for small to medium sized companies (especially startups). Over last 2 years, without any marketing or sales staff, it has been growing slowly. We get a lot of customer interest (and at times from VC's too) and those who start using it totally love our product. We think the product is a great utility for its target customers.<p>However, since we are not based in US (our target market), it's very hard for us to take this product to the next level without on ground market & sales team/personnel that can help aggressively market this to potential customers. We want to partner with a passionate entrepreneur who would be willing to join as a co-founder of this product and lead the marketing/sales effort in the US while we provide strong engineering/product development.<p>What's your feedback on this approach ? What's the best possible way to advertising this opening ? How should we evaluate people who show interest in this proposition ? Thanks for the help.
http://www.simplicant.com
======
hotmind
posting here is a good place. Have you tried <http://www.partnerup.com> and
Cofounder.com?
~~~
razasaeed
Not yet, thanks for the links, will do it.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Bing search results showing up in Google - ZeroMinx
http://jacquesmattheij.com/Bing+search+results+showing+up+in+Google
======
jedsmith
With respect to the author, the conclusion here is very flawed.
If you search for Bing in Google, you get Bing all over page 1. If you search
for Google in Bing, you get Google all over page 1. That's not the result of
Google capturing click stream data from Google Chrome and copying Bing's
results, nor is it the result of Microsoft capturing click stream data from
IE8 and copying Google's results. That's just the nature of indexing.
As for robots.txt disallowing those URLs, there is _no_ standard for
robots.txt behavior. I have observed some user agents treat it as case
insensitive, and others treat it as case sensitive.
Honestly, this isn't even in the same ballpark as the Google accusations made
earlier this week, and it smacks of just _looking_ for things to accuse Google
of in response to the "Binggate" (ugh, I typed it) drama. Can't we go back to
more productive things?
~~~
unp3rs0n
I don't understand why everyone is using the term "copying the results". I
think what Bing did was very smart, they incorporated user clickstream data.
One could accuse this method of walking a thin line morally, but I suspect
that Google's accusation wouldn't have stood any water as a lawsuit.
~~~
luigi
Because by incorporating clickstream data from Google, they're effectively
copying Google search results. Bing should blacklist Google from its
clickstream data.
~~~
unp3rs0n
Let's say tomorrow DDG is the search engine with the largest market share.
Then Bing would be getting all the clickstream data from DDG. I hope you do
realize that this "algorithm" is not Google specific. Its just a novel ranking
technique that incorporates a human user feedback loop and is a pretty well
known technique in the information retrieval field.
~~~
moultano
It would be equally unethical to be copying DDG's results in this fashion.
~~~
nostrademons
Highly ironic, though, as DDG uses Yahoo as a backend, which uses Bing, which
uses Google, which would use...DDG? I think there's a cycle in that list
somewhere...
------
Matt_Cutts
The two major issues in this article were:
\- Google can see and return links to pages without crawling them. I made a
video and a blog post about this a while ago:
<http://www.mattcutts.com/blog/robots-txt-remove-url/>
\- URL paths are case sensitive. Bing blocks /search in its robots.txt but not
/Search. That's how the /Search urls got crawled.
In a later edit, the author suggests "It would be fairly trivial for bots to
test if the server is IIS (if the server identifies itself as such of course)
or to try to retrieve Robots.txt and robots.txt, if those come up as equal
then the sever can be assumed to be case insensitive."
The issue of case sensitivity in robots.txt is a long, very nuanced topic.
Here's just one example to get you started: at least back in 2007 when we were
talking about this amongst ourselves at Google, the web server for
developer.apple.com was case-insensitive, but their robots.txt had lines like
this:
Disallow: /documentation/quicktime/
Disallow: /documentation/Quicktime/
Disallow: /documentation/QUICKTIME/
Disallow: /documentation/macosx/
Why would they do that? Apparently because Apple wanted the canonical link to
be /documentation/QuickTime . Back then, at least 21M robots.txt files on the
web had mixed-case paths. If Google started interpreting robots.txt files from
servers that claimed to be IIS differently... well, I'll leave it as an
exercise to the reader to come up with some of the unexpected bugs and
behavior that could result.
I know it's really tempting to write a headline like "Bing search results
showing up in Google," but I wish the author had done more research instead of
going for a gotcha. Any SEO worth his/her salt could have explained what was
going on here.
~~~
mc32
>"...but I wish the author had done more research instead of going for a
gotcha."
That's a bit of irony right there, isn't it?
\--wow, Matt, I guess it cuts both ways, eh?
~~~
Matt_Cutts
Anything in particular you're talking about? I've said a lot of stuff online
over the last 10 years. :)
~~~
Natsu
I don't know, but I would assume that they're one of the people who don't
think that what Bing did is a big deal. If I understand the arguments
properly, most either believe that the clickstream data belongs to the user
(who gave it away), or they believe that you haven't actually proven that
they're singling out Google in their clickstream data.
Anyhow, I've already posted in this story how anyone who wants to could go do
their own experiment (it appears that Bing's data isn't too hard to fake, that
goes double for anyone who can reverse engineer the toolbar). Similarly, I'm
not convinced that Bing doing this is going to ruin search any time soon,
mostly because I can see spammers/blackhat SEO types renting botnets to feed
Bing all the bogus clickstream data they want.
It appears to be a simple http request with some time zones, link text, and an
identifier or two that can be harvested from actual toolbars. If they don't
bother to spam them, it's because they believe that Bing is irrelevant. And
when I say "irrelevant" I mean "even less relevant than a low-traffic wiki for
a free game that's currently under a massive assault from spambots."
Which, incidentally, might be one good reason for your team to look more at
keeping wiki-spam out of your index. Some spam results from that wiki (in
spite of having rel=no-follow) were seen in Google's index and stayed there
until the admins caught on and cleaned things up.
------
floatingatoll
Dear Microsoft, case-sensitivity is important. [1]
m.bing.com/robots.txt says "/search", not "/Search". All of the crawled [2]
urls are "/Search" or "/~/search".
Also,
wap.bing.com/robots.txt explicitly "Allow:"s several search pages, which are
indexed by google.
[1] EDIT: Case insensitivity is often important. Above comment notes that some
robots are case-insensitive. I suspect Google is not, based on the results.
[2] EDIT: I said indexed, a reply corrects to crawled. Good point, thanks.
~~~
amalcon
Naturally, Bing is hosted on a Windows server, which inherits the Windows
filesystem eccentricities. Case insensitivity is among those. Because "search"
has six letters, that would mean that the robots.txt would need to have 64
entries to completely exclude this directory. That's not even including the
tilde thing or any other paths to that directory. And that's for one
directory.
Lame? Yes. Google's fault? Not in the slightest. But it brings up an
interesting question: if MS clickstream gathering included an opt-out
mechanism that happened to be impractical for Google, would that change the
ethics of any of this? Say, by having the Bing toolbar identify itself in
user-agent so that Google could block it if they wanted?
I wouldn't think that would materially change the situation. If Google really
wanted to, they could probably "block" this now by encrypting their existing
URL redirects, thus hiding the URL from the Bing toolbar entirely, at least
until the user is out of the Google system.
~~~
xilun0
What is the value of processing robots.txt in a case-sensitive way? If urls
are to have different status when considering case change, the the site
structure is just broken. Plus considering robots.txt in case-sensitive way
has already result in lots of errors, this one included, and will result in
even more in the future. Plus HTTP is not mandated to use case-sensitive URL
(though it's recommended). I can't think of any argument of why robots.txt
should be processed in a case-sensitive way (i mean for a good reason --
obviously search engine have a very "good" incentive to handle it that way:
the possibility to cheat and index more than they should, with an excuse when
they are caught), on the other hand i can think of many for case-insensitive
processing...
~~~
moultano
Webmaster's shoot themselves in the foot _a lot_. "My site isn't showing up in
google" is a frequent complaint on webmaster help forums, and typically the
problem is robots.txt or meta noindex. From that standpoint, since most sites
do want to be indexed, it makes sense to follow the standard as strictly as
possible. It should be hard to remove your site by accident, which case
insensitivity would make somewhat easier. Google states explicitly in their
robots.txt policies that it is handled in a case-sensitive way.
------
jsnell
> never mind that Bing only used its toolbar as a url discovery device
That is obviously untrue, and shows that the author does not understand the
issue even superficially. The Google experiment showed that Bing was
associating urls to search terms for no reason other than that Google had done
so. You know, like making a search for mbzrxpgjys return rim.com, a URL which
we can safely assume Bing was already quite aware of.
~~~
ajays
_the author does not understand the issue even superficially._
That, in a nutshell, is it. I don't know why we're spending so much time on
this post, as the author has no idea about how search engines work, and what
is robots.txt . If he had just looked at Bing's robots.txt and the URLs in
Google's results, he would have seen that each and every one of them passed
robots.txt . Since he site-restricted the search to ".bing.com", naturally you
_will_ get only Bing results!
------
ashleyw
Aren't /search and /Search considered two different directories when it comes
to robots.txt?
~~~
jfr
Yes. RFC 3986, sections 6.2.2.2 and 6.2.3.
~~~
nostrademons
I think you got the wrong RFC number:
<http://tools.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3938.txt>
No mention of robots.txt, nor a section 6.
~~~
jfr
Sorry, the correct number was 3986.
RFC 3986 - Uniform Resource Identifier (URI): Generic Syntax
------
haberman
Never underestimate the ability of a human being to rationalize.
If I was in the Microsoft camp, I'm sure I would also be grasping at straws to
explain why it's totally fine for Bing to use Google's search results. It's
human nature to rationalize.
The bottom line is that Bing's index contains associations that it could never
have figured out if Google hadn't figured them out first. How many there are,
we cannot know. There's no way around the fact that Bing is piggybacking on
the work of Google's search engineers.
Is it "good for the customer?" In the short term, it's good for the customer
if they can buy $1 bootlegged DVDs. In the long term, it's bad for the
consumer if the money goes to bootleggers instead of the people who are doing
the actual work.
Think I'm exaggerating the effect of just "1 out of 1000 signals?" This
argument would be extremely easy to refute. Stop using Google's results. If it
really isn't that significant, then why should it be a problem to stop using
it? Just turn it off and let everyone observe that the quality is 99.9% as
good as it used to be, and avoid any accusation of copying.
By refusing to turn it off, Microsoft makes it clear that it _is_ an important
part of their index, and that they have no qualms about having an important
part of their index ripped off wholesale from their biggest competitor. Maybe
it's a smart business move. But if that's the case, spare us the outrage about
being called "copyists."
~~~
jfager
The thing that bothers me about all this drama is that the actual offense
Google wants everyone to be so worked up about is that Bing doesn't filter
Google from its clickstream data.
Bing wrote code that works across the whole web. The whole web includes
Google. As a result, Bing gets some info from Google. But they didn't get that
info because they _copied_ Google, they got it because they didn't filter
Google out - or, said another way, because they _ignored_ Google as someone
they needed to special case for clickstream analysis.
I don't work in search, but the idea that you're supposed to special-case your
competitors when writing general-purpose tools sounds an awful lot like a
unilaterally recognized gentleman's agreement. If it's not illegal, and it
doesn't hurt end users, why shouldn't it be considered fair game?
I also think it's odd that throughout this whole thing, nobody has really
noticed that the only possible way Google could have spotted this issue is if
they're keeping very close tabs on Bing's search results. It's another
arbitrary line that Google seems to have unilaterally drawn: it's clearly fine
to monitor your competitors results closely, which presumably is going to have
an effect on your own results; it's only out of bounds when that effect is
directly measurable.
~~~
nostrademons
I thought part of the point is that whatever Bing is doing _doesn't_ work
across the whole web. They need to associate the URL with a query, and most
websites don't have queries. It's not just that Bing has recorded a click on
Miley Cyrus's webpage; it's that they've done that _and_ associated it with
the query [kecgxjpgqoe].
~~~
jfager
People have made that point, but I don't understand it. 'kecgx...' shows up as
a parameter in the url of the Google query. Tons of sites include relevant
information in parameterized urls; why is it unexpected that Bing would use
that information across the whole web? Other people have said that implies
that Bing has to have special Google url-parsing code, but that's not true at
all - query parameters in urls are standardized. You would have to have
special code to understand the specific semantics of Google's query urls, but
there's no reason to think Bing needs or wants parameter semantics, they could
easily just be interested in making probabilistic associations.
~~~
nostrademons
"You would have to have special code to understand the specific semantics of
Google's query urls"
That's why people say that it's special-cased. There's no web standard that
says the 'q' parameter means that the page is a search engine and the
parameter is the query. That was something AltaVista did a long time back
(possibly for byte-saving reasons, or possibly because they were lazy) and
Google et al copied. Many other search engines use a different system, eg. DDG
puts it in the request path, InfoSeek used qt=, Excite used search=.
~~~
jfager
Why do you think Bing cares or has to know that "q=" means a Google query
term? My point is that they don't have to have any semantic information about
parameter keys to be able to derive probabilistic associations between
parameter values and clicks.
If you consistently see pages with 'foo' as a parameter value to _any_
parameter key, and clicks on those pages consistently go to site bar, it's
completely reasonable to start associating foo with bar, regardless of what
the parameter keys are.
~~~
Natsu
> Why do you think Bing cares or has to know that "q=" means a Google query
> term?
If that's true, then they should also be associating the sites linked with all
the other weird parameter values in a search query, which would spam them to
heck. Here are all the params from a search I just did on google:
q=test&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls={moz:distributionID}:{moz:locale}:{moz:official}&client=firefox
They'd start making a lot of strange associations between random sites and
"utf-8" if that were true, because that parameter shows up in just about every
Google search done in English.
It's also a perfectly normal thing for programmers to search for, so they'd
clutter up their index with millions of sites that had nothing whatsoever to
do with utf-8.
So to make any real use out of that, they had to understand what the
parameters in there actually mean, rather than associating ALL of them with
whatever site was next in the clickstream.
Though I grant you, that does not disprove the alternate hypothesis that they
were dumb and polluted their index with loads of irrelevant crap.
And I admit that I found weak support for that hypothesis by trying to see if
utf-8 was linked to rim.com (one of the tests sites, if memory serves):
[http://www.bing.com/search?q=utf-8+rim&go=&form=QBRE](http://www.bing.com/search?q=utf-8+rim&go=&form=QBRE)
Those results appear to be crap, though I'm not sure that any sensible results
exist that they _could_ return.
~~~
jfager
_If that's true, then they should also be associating the sites linked with
all the other weird parameter values in a search query_
If it's a parameter value people will ever actually use Bing to search for
('utf-8'), there's probably plenty of other signal to help them figure out
which results to return. If it's not ('kecgxjpgqoe'), we already know they
sometimes return crap, thanks to Google's little experiment.
_They'd start making a lot of strange associations between random sites and
"utf-8" if that were true, because that parameter shows up in just about every
Google search done in English._
If it shows up as a parameter for every search, why do you think Bing's
algorithm would decide it was a good indicator for a particular url?
P(foo.com|utf-8) wouldn't be any different from P(bar.com|utf-8), making
'utf-8' basically worthless as a discriminator. I'm pretty sure the folks at
Bing understand the concept of conditional probability.
_It's also a perfectly normal thing for programmers to search for, so they'd
clutter up their index with millions of sites that had nothing whatsoever to
do with utf-8_
I see no justification for the idea that url parameters are somehow a more
difficult challenge in this regard than the mass of crap that is content on
the web, which we know they crawl and index at a massive scale.
~~~
Natsu
It would only show up as a parameter "relevant" to whatever sites were next in
the clickstream. Remember, not every page transition is Google -> other site.
They'd also be gobbling up tons of random things from forums and whatnot
(which should appear on long tail searches, if we knew where to look), most of
which spam the heck out of you with random parameters, forum names, and
whatnot.
> I see no justification for the idea that url parameters are somehow a more
> difficult challenge in this regard than the mass of crap that is content on
> the web, which we know they crawl and index at a massive scale.
Which is why I see no reason to assume that they don't understand or attempt
to understand the actual meaning of parameters passed to one of the biggest
sites on the internet.
~~~
jfager
You said 'utf-8' shows up as a parameter in almost every English Google
search, and suggested that this would cause weird associations between 'utf-8'
and random pages.
I pointed out that there's no reason to expect this to be true, because Bing
engineers are likely smart enough to realize that if the probability of
clicking on to foo.com is not significantly different than the probability of
clicking on to bar.com given the presence of the 'utf-8' parameter, then
'utf-8' is a pretty poor discriminator between foo.com and bar.com, and
probably shouldn't be used to determine search results.
It doesn't matter that not every page transition is Google -> another site.
You still wouldn't need to special-case Google to determine an association
with a parameter is useful or useless - the same code could build that model
for any site with params.
_They'd also be gobbling up tons of random things from forums and whatnot
(which should appear on long tail searches, if we knew where to look), most of
which spam the heck out of you with random parameters, forum names, and
whatnot._
How do you know that they don't? Google pointed out some longtail results that
look bad, and you yourself pointed some out in a previous comment.
_Which is why I see no reason to assume that they don't understand or attempt
to understand the actual meaning of parameters passed to one of the biggest
sites on the internet._
You're misunderstanding what I'm saying. I don't assume that they don't; I'm
just saying there's no evidence that they do, and that assertions of
wrongdoing based on the belief that they do are just irresponsible
speculation. I have no knowledge of what Bing actually does, but neither do
the vast majority of the people on the internet who are talking about this,
many of whom assume the worst based on a mistaken notion of what's technically
necessary to see the results that Google demonstrated.
~~~
Natsu
> the presence of the 'utf-8' parameter, then 'utf-8' is a pretty poor
> discriminator between foo.com and bar.com, and probably shouldn't be used to
> determine search results.
And yet, it will link random text to websites even if they appear only in
Google's URLs. I realize you're talking about discrimination (as in, "what's
the better result for utf-8?"), but if the code is generic, it ought to be
generic in this respect as well. After all, it linked up random nonsense to
random sites given nothing more than Google's say-so, even though there's
plenty of information out there about, say, rim.com that would tend to
indicate that nobody except Google thinks that random text is relevant to an
otherwise well-known site.
> How do you know that they don't? Google pointed out some longtail results
> that look bad, and you yourself pointed some out in a previous comment.
Indeed, I do not know. I know that it would be dumb to link those things to
random sites, but you are correct that I do not know if they're doing things
that dumb.
> I don't assume that they don't; I'm just saying there's no evidence that
> they do, and that assertions of wrongdoing based on the belief that they do
> are just irresponsible speculation.
Well, for one, I'm not really asserting "wrongdoing" here. That is, I don't
particularly think that it's wrong of them to do things this way. My interest
is mainly technical, so I'm more interested in figuring out exactly what
they're doing rather than blaming them for it. As such, I'm going for the most
likely explanations I can find, rather than worrying about whether it's been
proven to such an extent that they can be blamed for it (as I'm not really
going to blame them anyhow).
You may have seen where I pointed out that I don't think it will "ruin search"
in the end because they should expect a crapflood from spammers now that it's
clear that they use clickstream data to rank sites. After all, there's a large
spam attack right now on a tiny wiki for a game I play. I have to think Bing
is more of a target than that. I can't prove that, true, I'm just playing the
odds here.
------
mukyu
We need to get over this partisan "gotcha journalism". No one really benefits
from everyone making low content blog posts with any random accusations that
make their side 'right' (which just happens to be ad hominem anyways).
------
moultano
This looks like microsoft is assuming robots.txt is case insensitive?
~~~
ajays
It is. Only domain names are case-insensitive.
This document explains how Google handles robots.txt :
[http://code.google.com/web/controlcrawlindex/docs/robots_txt...](http://code.google.com/web/controlcrawlindex/docs/robots_txt.html)
~~~
Natsu
Are we reading the same file? Under where it describes matching paths (so
replace /fish and /Fish with /search and /Search if you like):
==Example path matches==
[path] /fish
Matches: /fish /fish.html /fish/salmon.html /fishheads /fishheads/yummy.html
/fish.php?id=anything
Does not match: /Fish.asp /catfish /?id=fish
Comments: Note the case-sensitive matching.
------
illdave
If you look at <http://wap.bing.com/robots.txt>, the URLs that Google is
returning are actually all set to 'allow', not disallow.
It also looks like m.bing.com/robots.txt blocks /search while their actual
URLs are /Search - I guess Googlebot treats robots.txt as case-sensitive.
------
aristidb
robots.txt applies to the source of the links, not the target.
So if, say, <http://www.paulgraham.com/> links to <http://m.bing.com/search>,
then <http://m.bing.com/robots.txt> does not apply to that.
EDIT: If you think this is wrong, please explain it instead of just downvoting
me, because I think it is pretty unfair that I lose karma for explaining my
interpretation.
~~~
benologist
Why would someone with no authority over your site linking to your site
override your robots.txt?
Edit: I didn't downvote you, but I think you're wrong because it makes no
sense - if I link to your site that shouldn't give search engines a free pass
to ignore your wishes and do whatever they want with your content.
~~~
aristidb
I understand a robots.txt "Disallow: /foo" to mean that it must not crawl that
page, i.e. look at the links _inside_ that page.
~~~
benologist
I've always interpreted it to mean they're explicitly not allowed to touch it
- no exceptions (unless you actually specified exceptions for them which you
can see on the 3rd last example at <http://www.robotstxt.org/robotstxt.html>).
~~~
moultano
One counter intuitive thing. They are allowed to link to it in search results
(using links that point to it to rank it for insance) but can't use the
content of the page.
------
dminor
Google has likely indexed links to Bing found on _other pages_ , rather than
on Bing itself. That doesn't mean it followed the links (and it wouldn't, if
excluded by robots.txt).
------
Herring
> _never mind that Bing only used its toolbar as a url discovery device, not
> to 'copy search results'_
Yeah, they just happened to discover high quality urls on google. What are the
chances?
~~~
ajays
URL discovery is one thing; ranking that discovered URL at number 1 without
any other signals is another. I don't think anyone cares that much about how
Bing does URL discovery (unless, of course, the URL is supposed to be private
and exchanged via email). Given that they have a new URL, what made them rank
it #1?
------
pmb
robots.txt disallows (or did until recently) only "/search". The results shown
have "/Search" in the url. Bing screwed up.
------
mwg66
Bit different.
------
yaix
Shouldn't the headline be "Bing explicitly allowing some results pages to
showing up in other search engines".
The wap.bing.com/robots.txt blocks all /search/ and then explicitly allows a
few. What ever the reason is for that.
Very weak article, IMHO.
------
maeon3
Microsoft is way out of line. Google figures out what content is good by
crawling every page and doing the leg work, and Bing copies Google data and
displays what google displays.
Google proved it with the bing sting. there is absolutly NO reason why bing
should have linked to those documents, other than that they copied off of
Google's exam paper.
When students do this, it is called plagiarizing. The smoke getting thrown by
MS is just to distract and divert while they scramble to hide what they did.
~~~
benologist
They proved that Microsoft uses clickstream data to rank websites, and in 7%
of manufactured cases that's _all_ the data they have?
I think this is exactly as petty and silly as last week's news, and now _they_
get to spend a week explaining how this occurred and that they _do_ obey
robots.txt.
~~~
moultano
Everyone else in this thread has already explained that microsoft is not
properly using robots.txt by having case insensitive urls, hence why these
urls were indexed.
~~~
benologist
The Bing context might suck for you guys, but this is your problem - case
insensitivity is _every_ Windows server, not just the Bing website.
Why would anyone hosted on Windows have to specify every possible spelling
variation to keep search engines out of a folder or file?
Here's another example:
<http://www.ifma.org/robots.txt>
These guys are disallowing /pv/
[http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8...](http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=site:ifma.org/pv/)
You guys are indexing /PV/
~~~
andrewcooke
Maybe I'm misunderstanding your argument, but I think you're confusing the
Windows file system with the URLs that a web service provides.
~~~
benologist
The problem exists when that web service is _on_ Windows - ASP.NET, Cold
Fusion, static html sites, probably a negligible percent of PHP sites etc -
/pv is /PV is /pV is /Pv
------
shareme
robot.txt excludes /search not /Search..big difference as 99.99% of return
results are ../Search*
MS mistake on robot.txt file not Google's
------
jamesjyu
I agree with the author here. I think that Google will come away from this
looking combative and childish.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
I'm looking for a coder to help me get a non profit up and running. - will_phipps
It'd be really cool if you could drop me a note if you'd like to help out.
======
saiko-chriskun
You really have to give some more information at to what you're trying to
build. I don't see how this is supposed to interest anybody.
------
kichuku88
Hi. Could you please let me know the requirements so that I will know whether
I will be able to help you
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
How I built my first mobile app with Trigger.io - legierski
http://blog.self.li/post/26068453853/first-mobile-app-trigger-io-weightconverter
======
marknutter
I'm evaluating Trigger.io currently for a new project. I've used phonegap on a
couple large projects before, as well. For me, Trigger's best value
proposition isn't the ease of development. For the average hacker the few
extra steps you need to take to use Phonegap/Cordova aren't overly complicated
and in the end you have a better idea of how everything fits together. If
Trigger.io's main selling point is going to be "easier to use than phonegap" I
think they may fall flat.
Where real value can be provided, however, is in providing turn-key modules
that allow developers to drop in native controls to supplement their web
applications. The biggest issue with hybrid mobile application development
today is embedded webview performance, especially on older devices. Using a
framework like Sencha works wonderfully for newer devices (it feels positively
native on my iPhone 4s), but because they have to rely on javascript to fix
elements and scroll certain sections on older devices, it ends up delivering a
sub-par experience for those users (on older androids the scrolling
performance is atrocious).
Trigger.io is currently offering API calls that allow you to drop in a tab bar
and a navigation bar which are native components. These are the two elements
in a mobile app that are most likely to require fixed positioning, so this
frees the webview up to simply serve a normal web page with natural, native
scrolling on all devices. This is essentially what Facebook is doing with
their current app - fixed native navigation elements and scrolling UIWebViews.
However, as we all know, Facebook's results have been less than satisfactory.
They admit that this hybrid approach helped their developers iterate faster
and be more productive, but instead of sticking with that strategy and
figuring out clever ways to make it perform better, they've capitulated and
are going full native.
If Trigger.io was able to solve that problem and make a hybrid HTML5/native
app perform as well as any other native app, they would really have something
there. My advice would be to figure out how to get UIWebViews to load faster
and cache better, how to allow customization of native UI elements so that
designers can deliver a unique, beautiful interface that scales across
multiple platforms, and continue to provide best-in-class hooks into the
native functionality on the leading platforms, such as dead-simple push
notification integration. Focus less on competing with phonegap and more on
solving the hybrid app problem.
~~~
subpixel
"Where real value can be provided, however, is in providing turn-key modules
that allow developers to drop in native controls to supplement their web
applications."
I'm curious - how is that different from the way other frameworks allow plug-
ins? As I understand it (perhaps not fully) plug-ins let you drop in chunks of
native code where desired.
~~~
marknutter
It's no different than phonegap/cordova plugins other than the fact that you
get support on them. With phonegap/cordova however, you're on your own and
from my experience the plugins out there are poorly maintained and are rarely
available for all three major platforms. If Trigger.io or a similar company
can provide supported, proven, bullet-proof plugins that work across all three
major mobile platforms, they truly have something there.
------
Xion
Looks like the author has partially succumbed to Hello World Fallacy. His
first extremely simple experiment (I'm reluctant to call it 'app') was
successful and he is extrapolating this in slightly too optimistic direction.
~~~
justinsb
I think this blog post is a great starting point and exactly what a platform
evaluation should be: an "app" that combines HTML Boilerplate, Zepto.js &
Twitter Bootstrap to build something that includes some useful user
interaction. And it's open source on github. I find a minimal starting like
that _more_ useful than something with lots of additional functionality that I
then have to remove for my use case.
Because it's standard HTML with common frameworks, I then have my pick of
docs/examples/tutorials/mailing lists on using those frameworks to build
something bigger, rather than being stuck with e.g. only Android resources.
I think that's what the author is basing his positive evaluation on; he's got
to the point where the Trigger.io technology has disappeared into the
background and is just "magic". He recognizes the pros & cons (e.g. needing to
be online to deploy), and is excited to use Trigger.io.
------
amirnathoo
Thanks for the write-up and your recommendation Peter :D
We're working on supporting more and more native features, such as the ones
you describe. And you'll see from our blog that we're getting features out
reasonably fast at the moment.
You can send a text message using our SMS module right now though:
<http://docs.trigger.io/en/v1.3/modules/sms.html>
~~~
amirnathoo
By the way, if you email us at [email protected] we'd love to send you a
t-shirt! :)
~~~
legierski
i was thinking about sending sms without user's interaction rather than
prompting user to send a predefined sms.
BTW email sent :)
------
papsosouid
What is the deal with all these "I made an app using trigger.io" blog posts
that seem to have been paid for by trigger.io? I don't think I've seen a
mention of trigger.io yet that doesn't grossly misrepresent phonegap as being
some difficult, arcane, "only greybeards can use it" monstrosity.
>I decided to go with Trigger.io to achieve my goal, as I wanted to spare
myself endless hours spent on configuring environment (as opposed to
PhoneGap/Appcelerator)
Huh? Have you tried phonegap? How does "click next on a couple of installers
and extract a single zip file" take hours of configuration?
>Trigger.io provides you with a pleasant environment, where you don’t have to
touch command line at all! It works as an app within your browser, from
localhost. I do understand that a lot of folks may prefer “hacker-style” black
terminal over Trigger’s clean and minimalistic web app, but for me clicking a
button that i can see instead of typing a command is a much better experience,
especially at the beginning.
I can't figure out what on earth he is trying to compare it to here. What
html/js mobile app framework involves typing commands in "hacker style black
terminals"? With phonegap you just click "run as android application" (or
whatever you want to run it as).
This is how hard it actually is to setup phonegap:
[http://docs.phonegap.com/en/1.8.1/guide_getting-
started_andr...](http://docs.phonegap.com/en/1.8.1/guide_getting-
started_android_index.md.html#Getting%20Started%20with%20Android)
~~~
justinsb
The first step you've linked there for PhoneGap Android is to install Eclipse.
The first step for PhoneGap iOS is to install XCode (=> OS X). The first step
for PhoneGap Windows Mobile is to install Visual Studio Express (=> Windows).
Regardless of whether you choose to point-and-click or use the command line,
Trigger's web-based approach seems to have a huge advantage over all that
installation/configuration. Heroku for cross-platform apps, as it were; of
course you can assemble everything yourself, but it's a lot more work to get
to the "it's easy now" stage which this blog gets to very quickly using
Trigger.
It does seem Trigger are sending out T-shirts (see below) - it doesn't count
as paid in my book, but then maybe the T-shirts are _really_ nice :-)
~~~
papsosouid
>The first step you've linked there for PhoneGap Android is to install Eclipse
Uh huh? You've never used an IDE before? And that makes you think clicking
next in an installer is hours of configuration?
>Trigger's web-based approach seems to have a huge advantage over all that
installation/configuration
See, this is exactly what I mean. You are welcome to say "I prefer editing my
code in a web browser", and I will certainly believe that (although I'll
obviously assume you are insane). But trying to characterize the alternative
of "using an editor" (which everyone already does for every other kind of
development) as some arduous task is absurd.
>but it's a lot more work to get to the "it's easy now" stage which this blog
gets to very quickly using Trigger.
No, it isn't. That's precisely the point. I just did it yesterday, that's why
I know. It took 5 minutes to have a nicely documented example app up and
running ready for me to edit it. I typed 0 commands. Deliberately
misrepresenting software X is a bad way to sell people on software Y. It just
makes you seem dishonest, and then your opinion isn't trusted.
~~~
amirnathoo
Just wanted to point out that Trigger.io doesn't require you to code in a web
browser as this comment implies. We don't provide any kind of IDE, web or
otherwise.
We do provide a cloud build service so you don't compile the apps locally. You
interact with that via command-line tools or our UI toolkit.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
The China Cultural Clash - hype7
https://stratechery.com/2019/the-china-cultural-clash/
======
ilamont
_Attempts by China to leverage market access into self-censorship by U.S.
companies should also be treated as trade violations that are subject to
retaliation._
Thank you, Ben, for this honest appraisal which involves sticking out your
neck and perhaps even harming your ability to travel to China or expand your
business.
Regarding this comment about Apple:
_And then there is Apple: the company is deeply exposed to China both in
terms of sales and especially when it comes to manufacturing. The reality is
that, particularly when it comes to the latter, Apple doesn’t have anywhere
else to go._
That may be true of manufacturing now, but will it be true 5 years from now?
Surely Cook et al saw the writing on the wall years ago when it articulated
some of its core values around privacy. Conflict is inevitable, and the risk
associated with having all your manufacturing eggs in one basket is too great.
We saw the announcement of Apple's manufacturing initiative in Texas, and
there are other locations for electronics sourcing and assembly throughout
Asia. How much of Apple's supply chain could be relocated elsewhere?
~~~
seanmcdirmid
Note that Cook became CEO because of his logistics and operations work in
China, so there is a lot of legacy to go on.
Apple assembles iPhones in Brazil and I believe India now, but these are
mostly for high tariff reasons. Much of what goes into an iPhone isn’t made in
china (and what is made in China can easily be made elsewhere), but they are
mostly made in east Asia, so having assembly done somewhere in the region.
Apple could always go to Taiwan (labor is more expensive, but they could maybe
rely on automation more) or Vietnam. However, whatever they would do would
cost them, a cost they could pay if needed but probably not one they want to
pay right now.
~~~
onlyrealcuzzo
But they don't own any factories, right? Wouldn't it destroy Foxconn and only
defer revenue a bit for Apple?
Maybe a few people who just gotta have the newest, latest, and greatest gadget
will switch to a Flagship android because they can't wait for the new iPhone.
But most people are pretty loyal / trapped into their mobile ecosystem.
I doubt it would materially affect Apple's market share or their revenue long-
term. Isn't the entire manufacturing cost of an iPhone $9? Even if it doubled,
their profit on iPhones would only drop by like 5%...
I think their latest pricing experiments have shown that there really is a
limit to how much people will pay for a new iPhone, and they've found it, so I
don't think they could pass the price onto the consumer. But it's only $10 on
a $900 phone...
~~~
zjaffee
The manufacturing cost of an iphone is closer to 400 dollars, the cost of
manufacturing doubling would be a huge hit to apple.
~~~
seanmcdirmid
That is way above its assembly costs, you must be including components also
right?
------
nostromo
It's frustrating to see people say that we shouldn't fight Chinese economic
imperialism, mercantilism, and protectionism because we should support free
trade.
Free trade is a two way street. If a trading partner is engaging in unfair
practices then it's reasonable to support sanctions and tariffs and other
means to get them to stop, even if you're a free trade supporter.
In fact this is the whole premise of the WTO, which supports free trade. If
you don't engage in free trade, you get slapped with tariffs.
~~~
Merrill
Free trade works so long as you are the economic hegemon. After the Napoleonic
Wars, Britain was the strongest economic power and championed free trade until
the 1870s. Then German and French manufacturing, US and Argentinian
agriculture competed favorably with British manufacturers and landowners and
free trade was not so popular in the run up to WW I.
Similarly, after WW II, the US was dominant and free trade served us well.
However, as other nations develop their competitive advantages, free trade is
not so popular in the US.
~~~
gurumeditations
If that were true, the US would treat Europe as even bigger an enemy than
China.
~~~
boomboomsubban
The US has used groups like NATO and the G7 to ensure that no European power
would challenge US hegemony.
~~~
sangnoir
The UK has long[1] been seen as the America's cat's paw/poodle in the EU[2] -
which is why some in the EU are of the idea that Brexit's silver lining is the
end of British obstructionism.
1\. [https://www.independent.co.uk/news/is-the-prime-minister-
a-p...](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/is-the-prime-minister-a-partner-or-
a-poodle-1193543.html)
2\. [https://www.economist.com/bagehots-
notebook/2010/07/23/brita...](https://www.economist.com/bagehots-
notebook/2010/07/23/britain-americas-trojan-poodle-in-europe)
------
baby
I have an interesting take on this, from knowing a bit about Chinese culture
(lived there) and for having friends and coworkers who are Chinese.
Culture in China is about unity. If you look at Chinese history, and if you
watch Chinese movies, this is a recurrent theme. Unification through blood and
war. This is the goal and China will get stronger and more stable over time.
At what cost? Tiananmen, xinjiang, hk, the gfw, and so on... people know about
it but are willing to ignore them for the greater goal.
Why this shocks us so much, as non-mainlander, is that our Overton window is
much further left (the window of what is considered “normal” or “accepted”
public discourse). We have lived through slavery, camps, revolutions for human
rights. So there’s definitely a human asymmetry here, which makes it harder
for any of us to find common ground.
I don’t think there are much solutions here, and I think that in time Chinese
people will learn the same lessons we have learned.
I also think most of their distrust in western media is not because they
necessarily disagree with it, but because it doesn’t promote their greater
goal. And eventhough they know weibo, wechat, et al. Are heavily censored they
continue to obtain their news from there, never ending the cycle.
~~~
throwawy4trueth
The solution is quite simple: mind your own business. Let time and history to
tell. China never send army or CIA to overthrow other countries. If the other
side don't want to do the business that's fine. Westerner like to spread their
values, often with force.
~~~
plandis
“Mind your own business” the Chinese say while simultaneously getting upset
when an individual in their individual capacity says something on an American
website banned in China. Is irony not a thing in China?
~~~
throwawy4trueth
That's not valid argument. The ban is a response to an individual not minding
his business but China business. If the indificual say something about
himself, your are right. Can you get it?
~~~
swsieber
But the Chinese government only gets upset if some says something they don't
like. If they say something positive, there's no issue. And when they get
upset, they lash out.
Tyrant, bully, abusive - there are many terms for that sort of relationship.
Is it any wonder that someone is upset about it, and advocating that the U.S.
gets out of it?
~~~
jimclegg
Now we knows what this feels like...
We had a lot of sanction happy presidents and the American population barely
bat an eye-lid as millions died from the fallout.
Only thing lost in this case is money, so far.
------
justinzollars
Having recently traveled to China, returning home made me very thankful to
live in a Western Democracy. Many of my day to day problems are overstated,
and I think our appreciation for liberty is under appreciated.
~~~
munchbunny
_I think our appreciation for liberty is under appreciated._
Having grown up as a Chinese immigrant, I think this is true in ways that I
wish the more fervent Americans could appreciate.
By that I mean I wish Americans respected the more general principle of
enfranchisement more, but these days in practice that's just a straight up
criticism of the GOP and anyone who votes for them, due to their
gerrymandering and voter suppression practices.
------
scrumper
> The internet is an amoral force that reduces friction, not an inevitable
> force for good.
This is well said and something everyone in tech should remember. Unintended
consequence is a law with teeth.
~~~
nnq
Why would you care about "good", a relative notion that means different things
to different people, over _reduction of friction_ , a clearly beneficial thing
that accelerates technical and scientific progress?
If we could only "dissolve" all those parts of society and culture that are
mostly pure friction, and spin the wheels 100x faster to the future...
~~~
scrumper
So... I can't say "good" but you can say "beneficial."
Reduction of friction is not clearly beneficial! That's exactly the point.
Superficially it appears to be, but it absolutely isn't the case. Reducing
friction lets things happen faster. Both good things and bad things. And since
the meaning of 'good' depends on where you sit, you can't claim that it's
purely beneficial.
------
Merrill
Since diversity is a strength, it would seem that the ideal situation globally
is to have a diversity of economic, political and legal systems. If instead,
these systems around the globe tend towards similarity and strong coupling,
the result is likely to be fragility and instability. By having weakly coupled
diverse systems with well defined interfaces, the overall global system
becomes more robust and disturbances in one part are less likely to propagate
to the rest of the globe. Current tensions seem to be due to too tight
coupling and poorly defined protocols and interfaces.
~~~
drcode
You think totalitarian regimes like China and North Korea are OK, because
"diversity"?
~~~
Merrill
North Korea is totalitarian, and it will hopefully change to something
acceptable.
I think of the current regime in China as more an authoritarian single party
regime. We have tolerated or been allied with authoritarian single party
regimes in earlier decades such as Taiwan under the KMT, Japan under the early
LDP, and South Korea under Rhee.
China places a higher priority on enforcing social harmony than the US, but
China has a history where there have been multiple periods of severe social
disturbance causing 10s of millions of deaths, such as the Taiping Rebellion.
In actual practice most people have quite a lot of freedom on most subjects
most of the time since, "Heaven is high, and the Emperor is far away."
~~~
foogoloo
The Chinese Communist Party places a high priority on social harmony because
that’s what benefits them. Having freedom as long as no one notices you isn’t
freedom.
~~~
Merrill
In the US there is a faction that is extremely strong on "privacy rights".
This seem motivated by the idea that you are free to do as you please so long
as you can prevent others from knowing about it, rather than depending on
having strong rights to do as you please whether others know or not.
Strong privacy is the "security by obscurity" solution to being free.
~~~
drcode
So you're arguing China has strong privacy rights? How do "privacy rights"
matter if you don't have the freedom to have privacy?
~~~
m-p-3
Freedom is subjective to one's past experiences.
------
4gotunameagain
> There’s one rather glaring hole in this story of immediate outrage from
> Chinese fans over Morey’s tweet:
> Twitter is banned in China.
I didn't even realize until now. They are simply censoring (mainly)American
social media posts. On the internet.
~~~
godelski
Wikipedia is also banned. Most social media is banned. Though these sites are
generally allowed in HK. Many people also do use VPNs, but that's a different
topic.
~~~
ktln2
Not now - Chinese is turning Wikipedia into a censorship weapon. What you can
see on Wikipedia (in Chinese) are largely edited by Chinese government.
[1]
[https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-49921173](https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-49921173)
~~~
godelski
Let me clarify: Wikipedia is banned in Mainland China (what Westerners mean
when they say "China"). It is allowed in Hong Kong and Taiwan - which are
outside the great firewall. That doesn't mean they aren't censoring and
editing the Chinese language Wikipedia. They definitely are. Also consider
that many people from China (read: mainland China) are coming to the US and
the west for school. They tend to read the Chinese language versions of Wiki,
not the English ones.
------
curiousgal
Adobe recently blocked all Venzuelans because of an executive order.
Foreign companies are sanctionned by the US for dealing with Iranian entities
even if their countries have no issue with Iran. (Huawei's executive was even
arrested in Canada on behalf of the US for that).
My point is, why should we hold companies accountable for enforcing a certain
national policy when A, companies have always done awful things in the name of
their owners/shareholders and B, the US itself uses companies as a proxy for
its policies?
~~~
stebann
You forget the part where now all South-American economies are in crisis
thanks to US forcing pet leaders to replace "corrupt" ones. Now 50 % of
population in Argentina is poor (counting homeless too) thanks to US Foreign
Policy, but for them is OK to maintain the 10 % becoming nastily rich while
others pay the price.
~~~
aianus
Argentina is poor because they elect populist leaders who spend more money on
social programs than they collect in taxes and eventually default. Same as
Greece. It is entirely self-inflicted.
~~~
stebann
Not entirely self-inflicted. A) Argentina "populist" leaders didn't have to go
to the IMF and they provided a good climate for small to large enterprises
with the obvious limitations that country's market has. When the current
administration (conservative, neo-liberal) got in, Argentina didn't have debts
but was negotiating with foreigner speculators who took advantage during last
crisis at the end of 90's. So the current administration (those administration
you guys love) worsened all the conditions for enterprises and made impossible
to invest in any industry. They also let financial and venture capital to take
the country's destiny in their hands. Four years ago, defaulting was
unthinkable. USA Foreign Policy has much to do with it when they disturbed the
local political process. B) Social programs benefits a small part of
population, and they really need it. Actually, the actual administration is
spending even more than before on social programs, and they're not the
"elected populist leaders" you refer. While we can discuss if the incentives
are effective for producing a labor force (I think they fail miserably), we
can't discuss the basic rights of people to have something to eat until better
economic conditions are met. C) Taxes are the weakest part of the system, but
alone didn't hamper Argentina's capabilities to made business locally and
internationally. And you forget that their nature are not different from any
other places taxes in the world. US provided political and ideological support
for this complete mess and you should feel ashamed before talking about other
countries.
------
juanjmanfredi
I'm curious as to what happens if the NBA does in fact get banned from China.
I've always wondered whether, as the Chinese economy grows and living
standards rise, individuals would ever feel more entitled to individual
rights. Of course maybe this is just a western bias.
If the NBA was blocked, would passionate Chinese NBA fans (of which there are
many) fall in line? Or not?
~~~
knzhou
I'm always bemused to have to say this, but: nobody likes censorship because
they enjoy "falling in line". People everywhere support censorship exactly to
the degree that they agree with the censors.
You probably didn't shed a tear when Alex Jones was deplatformed, because he's
a scoundrel, and if this really did escalate to a full block of the NBA (which
seems unlikely), by that point many Chinese citizens would probably think the
same of the NBA.
~~~
LocalH
This. _So much_ this.
Deplatforming is deplatforming. If one supported the deplatforming of Alex
Jones, and doesn't also support China on this, then they are a _hypocrite_
engaging in severe cognitive dissonance.
Freedom of speech is not some "loophole" that allows people to say nasty
things. It's a _bulwark_ against authoritarianism. The ones who forget that
need to study world history when it comes to freedom of speech and expression.
~~~
juanjmanfredi
Twitter, Facebook, and any other entity that deplatformed Alex Jones are
private companies and can deplatform whoever they want. In fact that is part
of their freedom of speech. This is different from government-enforced
silencing of speech, which is what is happening in China right now.
I feel no cognitive dissonance, but maybe you can explain more why I should.
~~~
mizzack
If you want to see that sort of cognitive dissonance/hypocrisy on display,
just go a few threads over and state:
> "Blizzard Entertainment is a private company and can deplatform whoever they
> want".
~~~
papreclip
They might not word it this way, but I think what people really mean is "X is
a private company and can deplatform whoever they want with the approval of
their users".
I haven't seen anyone saying Blizzard's actions should be illegal. The common
response seems to be "boycott", which Alex Jones' supporters were free to do
as well
------
smackay
It is rather interesting to see Stratechery talk about values when normally
the articles are about markets and capital. I don't how the latter, since they
are inherently amoral, can accommodate values either. As a result the argument
seemed a little forced. Surely if China is an important market for western
companies then the rules of that market apply. It is only to be expected that
in a global market there must a corresponding globalisation of the rules and
norms. Free speech might not be on that list.
I do have to take issue that this is a cultural problem. I don't regard the
Communist Party of China to be guardian of culture in China. The country did
rather well for thousands of years before it's existence and will no doubt do
well for thousands more after it's demise.
~~~
stebann
That is exactly what I try to point out, but "freedom" cowboys don't care
about other perspectives about Freedom. And they actually don't understand it
and then they forget every atrocity their country has committed and is
committing right now, including trying to overthrow legitimate governments and
destabilize other countries economies to gain competitive advantage. Moral and
Ethics, I don't see them anywhere.
~~~
kapuasuite
I like how you threw in the whataboutism at the end, as if the West has no
moral right to criticize China because of the long list of atrocities they’ve
committed. Well played.
Here’s the deal - China is a totalitarian state bent on reclaiming what they
see as their rightful place in the world. They will stomp on anyone they have
to, friend or enemy, real or imagined, foreign or domestic, to make that
happen.
At the same time, the rest of the world, including the West and its allies,
have the ability to force China to abide by international norms and the right
to defend themselves from China’s aggression.
You may think it hypocritical, but from where I’m sitting the US and its
allies have the moral high ground in this instance and no amount of bleating
about everyone’s historical crimes is going to distract everyone from the
realities of China’s ongoing atrocities against its own people, it’s Nine Dash
Line, it’s blatant political and economic attacks on the free world and its
disrespect for and undermining of centuries of international laws and norms.
------
samcheng
> _And then there is Apple: the company is deeply exposed to China both in
> terms of sales and especially when it comes to manufacturing. The reality is
> that, particularly when it comes to the latter, Apple doesn’t have anywhere
> else to go._
For what it's worth, I know of multiple Chinese companies that are themselves
moving manufacturing overseas, primarily to South East Asia. I'm not convinced
that the multinationals have nowhere else to go.
~~~
adventured
> I'm not convinced that the multinationals have nowhere else to go.
Samsung is making most of their phones outside of China. It's clear you can
push most multinational manufacturing back out of China. There are several
dozen countries to redistribute that manufacturing to. I've probably read 50
or 60 articles in the past year that touch on the varied types of companies
moving out of China, from bicycles to bathroom fixtures to clothing to tires.
The far bigger Apple issue, is that they don't want to lose the consumer side
of the Chinese market. It's trivial for the Chinese authorities to snap their
fingers and make Apple persona non grata in China. It wouldn't even take very
long, a short duration of total disruption would be enough to wipe out Apple's
market share. They'd never get it back, there are plenty of good domestic
alternatives.
For a company the size of Apple, losing half their position in China could
mean losing half a trillion dollars in revenue over the next ~20 years. Beyond
the hardware, China's extremely large consumer market is no doubt perceived to
be very important for Apple's services shift over time.
------
richardzyx
> Kunlun Tech had acquired Grindr without undergoing CFIUS review. TikTok
> similarly acquired Musical.ly without oversight and relaunched it as TikTok
> for the Western market; it is worth at least considering the possibility of
> a review given TikTok’s apparent willingness to censor content for Western
> audiences according to Chinese government wishes.
Musical.ly was a Shanghai-based company targeting the western market, once
considered as a case study for similar types of companies.
------
knzhou
The Chinese get pissed off at political statements Americans find innocuous.
Europeans are angry over the dominance of American tech companies which they
are unable to control. Americans are panicked at the very idea of anybody non-
Western being associated with any technology they use, as we saw with FaceApp
and 5G.
This was all inevitable, and it's going to lead to siloed-off, separate
internets for every region in the world. I always find it amusing and a bit
sad when people condemn the Great Firewall, and then immediately turn around
and demand their country get one too. Neutrality is impossible; no platform
can please everybody.
~~~
mlyle
I don't think people want a Great Firewall. I just don't want economic power
being concentrated by foreign states to suppress political speech here.
~~~
knzhou
This is exactly my point. You, an American citizen, call it "economic power
being concentrated by foreign states". But Chinese citizens call it "ordinary
people boycotting offensive speech". It's the NFL kneeling protests and
boycotts again, except divided by country rather than by red/blue within the
US. It's annoying to have people you don't know come in and tell you your
speech is offensive, and if you want that to stop, then you want siloed
national internets.
~~~
guelo
Nobody, including Chinese citizens thinks this is "ordinary people boycotting
offensive speech", this is government action.
~~~
knzhou
How do you know? I see literally zero direct evidence for this in the linked
post -- only that _some_ people in China responded. Not everybody in China is
working for the government.
When analogous statements are found offensive in the US, US citizens, US tech
companies, and the US media can act with astonishing speed and coordination to
stamp them out. That doesn't mean that the US government is directing all of
it.
~~~
ookblah
The Chinese consulate in Houston put out a statement condemning the tweet.
You have a track record of China using the heavy hand to dictate the messaging
of corporations and individual citizens.
No coordinated message in China goes through without the explicit or implicit
consent of the government, even if it starts "from the people". It's not hard
to make the connection here.
~~~
knzhou
> The Chinese consulate in Houston put out a statement condemning the tweet.
Okay, perhaps. But that could also be them jumping on a popular bandwagon.
I'm just raising this doubt because I've seen, many times on sites like this,
enormous panics over supposed Chinese government actions, which actually boil
down to totally innocuous actions from individuals. The most common cognitive
bias when the West discusses the East is to think of it as a giant collective
-- not being able to "tell them apart".
~~~
viscanti
> Okay, perhaps. But that could also be them jumping on a popular bandwagon.
How could there be a bandwagon when twitter is banned in China (so no one
could have ever seen the tweet), and immediately after the tween all Chinese
social media blocked any posts related to the Houston Rockets? There was zero
way for anyone in China to even know it was a thing or to be angry.
~~~
diego
Lots of people in China (more than you'd imagine) use VPNs. If you want to
verify this is true, ask anyone who's used Tinder in China.
------
UIZealot
It helps to know _a little bit_ about what's been going on in Hong Kong,
before you all line up and take your daily dump on China.
It all started a few months ago when someone committed a crime in Taiwan and
fled to Hong Kong. To prevent HK from becoming a safe haven for criminals, the
Chief Executive of HK proposed a new law to facilitate extradition of these
crime suspects from HK to various jurisdictions in the region, including
Taiwan and mainland China.
The proposed law even explicitly stated that it's not applicably to crimes
political in nature. But some HK people were nevertheless concerned that it
might be abused by China to target political dissidents in HK.
So they have taken to the streets to protest that law. As a result, the law
was quickly suspended before it had a chance to pass, and a few weeks ago the
HK Chief Executive officially announced the withdrawal of the law.
However, despite the concession from the HK government, the protesters pressed
on, demanding four more concessions from the government, chief among them
universal suffrage, or the direct election of the HK Chief Executive, who up
to this point have been nominated from a narrow pool of Beijing-approved
candidates, then voted on by a committee.
It's not entirely clear that China even had anything to do with the proposal
of the law which started this ordeal. But the protesters have been shrewd to
paint a picture, to great effect, of big bad China stomping on the poor
helpless people of HK.
What I cannot stress enough, is the rampant _violence and destruction_ from
these protesters, which has done this great city, and many innocent citizens,
unimaginable harm. Feel free to support their _peaceful_ protests, but please
don't simply pile on and encourage these violence and destruction.
(EDIT: If anything I said is untrue, please correct me. Use the truth to argue
your side, don't be a coward and hide behind your downvote.)
~~~
throwaway_bad
This is unintentionally the clearest demonstration of the clash of cultural
values in the whole thread.
Between harmony and human rights, it's absolutely clear to a westerner which
one is more important.
From your tone, it is also absolutely clear which one you would choose.
> If anything I said is untrue, please correct me
It's possible to only say true things and still be biased. This is probably
the most common way of spinning a story for "fake news". Some major events I
would definitely include are:
\- The 2015 Causeway bay disappearances which justified the fear of
extradition:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causeway_Bay_Books_disappearan...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causeway_Bay_Books_disappearances)
\- Carrie Lam doesn't actually have autonomy and needs confirmation from
beijing:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOft2Y6mH_g](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOft2Y6mH_g)
\- Escalation of force, hiring triads to attack citizens, blinding journalist
with rubber bullets, shooting live ammo at students in the chest, etc etc.
There are a lot more I can add but halfway through I realize the details don't
really matter. The difference in cultural values will make the interpretation
of these events irreconcilable anyway.
To an individualist, the only fact that matters is that at least 2 million in
a city of 8 million want the right to their own destiny. To a collectivist,
the only fact that matters is that the government is building a more
harmonious society so the ends justify any means.
~~~
UIZealot
> Between harmony and human rights, it's absolutely clear to a westerner which
> one is more important.
What have been the human rights violations from the government, aside from
responses to protester violence?
Labeling yourself "human rights" does not automatically make you right.
> It's possible to only say true things and still be biased. This is probably
> the most common way of spinning a story for "fake news".
Certainly. And you are immune to biases and spinning "fake news" ... how?
> Escalation of force, hiring triads to attack citizens, blinding journalist
> with rubber bullets, shooting live ammo at students in the chest,
"triads"? "fake news" much?
What else from this list is anything but a response to protester violence? Or
do you think the policy should just stand still and take the beating?
> To an individualist,
Keep throwing labels around all you want, it doesn't make you right.
Your freedom to shine your laser light ends where another person's eyes begin.
~~~
throwaway_bad
I am not immune to fake news. I think that's why I appreciated your original
response so much. I wanted to see how others are interpreting the same events.
Human rights violation by china are well documented. You can look them up
yourself assuming you have access to an uncensored internet. I cited
disappearing people as the example that I thought was most relevant for the
extradition bill.
The triad attacks are definitely real (we are in the age of smartphones after
all): [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-
china-49071502](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-49071502)
I don't think you realize how much the difference in cultural values is making
it hard for us to communicate here. Westerners consider what you call
"violence and destruction" to be a fair price to pay to have rights
guaranteed. Fighting is necessarily ugly but shining laser in eyes is
laughably tamed compared to the lengths democratic societies have historically
gone to protect their freedoms.
I do understand that some people just want to go on with their daily lives and
ignore the atrocities going on in the background as long as it doesn't happen
to them. I am not even arguing that's necessarily wrong either, just very
different from western thought.
~~~
UIZealot
Likewise, I appreciate your honesty and candor.
> Human rights violation by china are well documented.
That may have been the case. But we are talking about human rights violations
by the Hong Kong government here, and I don't think you have a case here.
> The triad attacks are definitely real
We can certainly demand an independent investigation into this once the
violence and destruction stops.
> Westerners consider what you call "violence and destruction" to be a fair
> price to pay to have rights guaranteed.
I believe the bill was quickly suspended after initial _peaceful_ protests.
There's no reason to believe the bill wouldn't be withdrawn if peaceful
protests persisted. That's why I believe the violence has been unnecessary and
may have even been harmful to the cause.
FWIW, I oppose the bill and support the peaceful protests against the bill.
> shining laser in eyes is laughably tamed
Have you tried that on yourself? Maybe you'll have more empathy for the policy
if you had. It looks deceptively benign but is in fact incredibly aggressive.
> I do understand that some people just want to go on with their daily lives
> ... just very different from western thought.
I doubt it's very different in the west.
~~~
mercutio2
A few points:
A) It’s very difficult to distinguish false-flag violence from hooligans
B) Once violence starts, it’s hard to stop it, but that doesn’t mean that the
government should automatically get its way because a small minority of
hooligans/false flag operatives got involved
C) Protesting for universal suffrage from an uncontrolled slate of candidates
seems eminently reasonable from a western perspective; what do you think is
bad about this?
------
skmurphy
I supported Clinton's invitation of China into a more liberal trade
arrangement,but it has not worked out as anyone in the US had hoped.
Thompson's conclusion is an important insight: "Money, like tech, is amoral.
If we insist it matters most our own morals will inevitably disappear."
------
chromaton
How can we get Tim Cook to make a statement regarding democracy in Hong Kong?
Either he refuses, which would be supporting the brutal crackdowns, or he
forces China to act as they did like in the NBA case.
~~~
tanilama
Cook is a friend of Trump, just saying.
~~~
ceejayoz
Don't confuse "Cook is a friend of Trump" and "Cook is trying to stay out of
Trump's crosshairs".
He's donated to both sides of the aisle, including a fundraiser for Hillary
Clinton last election: [https://fortune.com/2016/08/24/apple-tim-cook-
fundraiser-cli...](https://fortune.com/2016/08/24/apple-tim-cook-fundraiser-
clinton/)
------
the_details_guy
It appears that the third screenshot doesn't use the characters 火箭, but some
other word?
~~~
ETHisso2017
火影，or naruto, so not surprising he's not seeing the rockets. Not sure if BT
will edit the article or not
~~~
monkbent
Screw up by me but point holds. Fixing.
~~~
theNJR
A wild monkbent appears!
------
check-in
> China took the first shots, and they took them a long time ago. For over a
> decade U.S. services companies have been unilaterally shut out of the China
> market, even as Chinese alternatives had full reign, running on servers
> built with U.S. components
But, the U.S. companies like this equation - don't they? It helps them
generate more profit to their shareholders and give them access to that scale
of manufacturing. This led to the growth of the US economy. Now, you have a
new player in the game who doesn't like to play by the old player's rules and
the old player doesn't like it.
~~~
Barrin92
Yes, and importantly the new players rules are only the old players rules of
the past. The 'American System' of economic development is essentially what's
playing out on the Chinese side now.
The US of course doesn't need to like it, but it seems a tad silly to expect
that a country that is very much still developing to act like a free-trading
developed nation.
------
zarro
I see lots of Anti-China sentiment. I would be very careful here into not
falling into their deliberate trap of making "The West" China's "Enemy".
China in its current totalitarian form needs an "Enemy" to survive, without
it, it has to deal with difficult internal questions which will force it to
adapt and change - and this what scares them.
Totalitarian governments rely on distraction and misdirection of the populace
in order to survive. Without it to use as ammunition to unify the people
against a commonly perceived "enemy", the very nature of its limiting rule
forces the populace to start questions to try and improve their own condition.
Questions like "freedom" and "censorship". Totalitarian governments are not
equipped to satisfy difficult questions like this and will either adapt or
crumble.
Thus the best way "oppose a government that is the sworn enemy of values you
regard as precious" is to allow it to face its internal discord without giving
it the "enemy" it so desperately needs as ammunition to use against you.
EDIT: There are many comments that I think are misguided attacking this
concept, here is rebuttal to them:
Proposition: If China wants to make the west an enemy, it will do so with or
without us by the total control it has over its populace.
Rebuttal: So the best counter plan is to help them in doing so?
Proposition: So the solution is don't speak out about real issues because you
don't want to piss off Chinese citizens and make them think you are the enemy?
Rebuttal: Obviously not, but rhetoric implying war or xenophobia is hardly the
answer either.
Proposition:Most totalitarian governments fail on the battlefield. Think of
Genghis Khan, Napoleon, the empires that fell during WW1, or the Axis powers
in WW2.
Rebuttal: Just because totalitarian regimes have fallen on the battlefield
before, does not mean they will do so in the future. Not only is this
proposition utterly foolish and dangerous but its not even remotely true in
the nuclear age.
Proposition: Even if you watch or read the heavily controlled Chinese media,
it's never about fighting anyone or pointing the finger at anyone.
Rebuttal: This is almost categorically untrue and uninformed. In fact, in
times of political tension anti-west and anti-Japanese sentiment in the
government controlled media is used almost without fail. No protests are
allowed, but anti-west and anti-japanese protests are manufactured by the
state.
Proposition:Should we allow economic coercion and suppression of political
speech in the US by a state power? Can we not speak out in favor of those
protesting in Hong Kong that were promised 50 years of "one country, two
systems"?
Rebuttal: Of course NOT! But we should act on the defensive, and prudently,
with our own best interests in mind.
Proposition:This theory has proved wrong. China has been welcomed into the WTO
over the last 20-30 years and it has not reformed. It is now extending it's
economic superpower into political and cultural power. It's not about making
an enemy, it's about limiting this unwanted influence.
Rebuttal: To say the theory has proved wrong is premature, China took
advantage of one sided trade agreements that created a competitive advantage
for itself, subsidized by us. Limitations of its political and cultural power
should be in the form of leveling out this competitive economic playing field,
and not escalation into xenophobia or coercion.
~~~
nostrademons
I upvoted you for a thought-provoking perspective, but I think you're wrong
historically. Most totalitarian governments fail on the battlefield, or they
fail when the charismatic leader dies and his heirs are not so charismatic.
Think of Genghis Khan, Napoleon, the empires that fell during WW1, the Axis
powers in WW2, Libya post-Gaddafi, or Saddam Hussein. Totalitarianism seems to
be an effective way to rapidly modernize a population to take advantage of
already-discovered technological advances, and then to mobilize the population
for war. It fails heavily at actually _waging_ war, where the life-or-death
competition between powers leads to a rapidly shifting reality that
totalitarian governments cannot keep up with, because totalitarianism requires
a near-total distortion of reality in order to keep the ruling clique in
power. Additionally, liberal democracies often have a deeper bench of talent
and technological developments waiting in the wings; totalitarianism requires
the extermination of these institutions as potential threats to the regime,
but liberal democracy cultivates these institutions in times of peace and then
can draw on them in times of war. Witness how quickly the allies deployed
radar, sonar, codebreaking, convoy systems, fire control computers, mass
production, strategic bombing, and nuclear weapons during WW2: almost all of
these inventions existed within Nazi Germany (some of them were discovered
there), but their widespread development was blocked by Hitler's disfavor or
inattention, and so they never got the resources they needed.
I suspect you're thinking specifically of the Soviet Union and Warsaw Pact
nations during the 90s. There's a conflating factor there though: _communism_
breaks up under internal pressures without an external enemy. (This is a
pattern also replicated within many Latin American countries, as well as
within smaller-scale communes within the United States.) Communism is one form
of totalitarianism, but it's not the only one, and it's not the one currently
practiced by China (which switched over to state capitalism in the 70s).
~~~
bigpumpkin
Genghis Khan was neither a totalitarian leader nor did he fail on
battlefields.
~~~
nostrademons
> or they fail when the charismatic leader dies and his heirs are not so
> charismatic.
As for totalitarianism - it's complicated, since totalitarianism in pre-modern
societies looked very different. He would generally allow people in captured
territories some degree of self-rule, as long as they sent the requisite taxes
to support his war machine and didn't threaten his rule. But that's not all
that different from the status of ordinary people in China: pay the requisite
taxes and don't threaten the ruling party and you have a fair amount of
latitude to go about your business unhindered. It's also very different from
the degree of freedoms we're used to in the U.S, where threatening the ruling
party is practically a national sport.
------
ETHisso2017
火箭, unlike the "Lakers", is a common Chinese word (rockets). Expecting it to
dominate the trending hashtag on a Chinese social media site is a stretch.
~~~
yorwba
Even worse, the search term in the image is "火影" (Naruto, EDIT: the series,
not the character; the Chinese name of the series refers to
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Naruto_characters#Hoka...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Naruto_characters#Hokage)
).
No wonder they're getting results completely unrelated to basketball.
~~~
monkbent
This was a mistake, since fixed, but even then there are no basketball
references
~~~
yorwba
Yeah, now it's "Rocket Girls 101"
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_Girls_101](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_Girls_101)
Probably censorship, but including "篮球" in the query would make it a lot more
obvious whether the Houston Rockets are suppressed intentionally or not.
------
icsllaf
>The truth is that the U.S. China relationship has been extremely one-sided
for a very long time now: China buys the hardware it needs, and keeps all of
the software opportunities for itself — and, of course, pursues software
opportunities abroad.
The US started off the game with a lot more technology, knowledge, and power
than the Chinese. I'm kind of iffy that developing nations should open their
markets entirely to the largest multinational corporations especially if that
means steamrolling the local companies. A lot of Chinese companies would not
have been able to start if they instantly got out marketed by large American
ones.
------
madiathomas
Anti-China propaganda machinery is in full force today. So many anti-China
propaganda articles in a technical news site. This isn't what I was expecting
when I joined Hacker News. I was expecting to see Hacker news, not this
rubbish that has littered the front page today. I am even ready to be removed
from this site today. I am not even Chinese. I have never visited China but I
am able to see anti-China bullshit that is happening on this site.
~~~
Aaronstotle
How is this anti China propaganda? These are legitimate complaints that
haven't been properly addressed nor called out for years.
~~~
madiathomas
One-sided complaints? When we point out millions of people which were murdered
by US, we are downvoted and suppressed because we are a minority on this US-
dominated website. I am seriously fed-up with the bullshit spread on this
site. You can remove some of us and continue to discuss rubbish pro-US drivel.
If there is a way to report users, please do me a favour by reporting my
account. I want to get out of this rubbish website today.
~~~
takamh
I feel the same way that the quality of discussion here has declined
significantly and even as an American I'm tired of politicizing everything in
a pro-US light. Do you have any recommendations for alternative sources of
tech news?
------
tiredwired
World superpowers and associated people should not take tweets so seriously.
People read too much meaning and emotion into throwaway comments.
~~~
Loughla
That just waves away the fact that Twitter and other places like it on the
internet are THE platforms for conversation and statements. It's seemingly a
statement that assumes internet based communication is secondary to real-life
communication. And that's just not the case in 2019.
~~~
confusedhnguy2
> ... for conversation and statements.
Statements, yes. Conversations, no. It's just a bunch of echo chambers, when
people occasionally come out of their favorite chamber they simply yell at
each other with their ears covered.
------
tareqak
One could argue that this moment in history being a moment to pause and
reflect. If corporations and their officers are forced to confront the
question "What is more important: money or values?" and start picking values,
then maybe other values like privacy and human rights will get picked along
with freedom of speech as part of movement to protect values.
------
oska
Just on the NBA angle: It seems quite bizarre to me that a very large country
like China follows a sports league in another country. I personally would
welcome the Chinese following their own sports leagues more. Yes, they are
often of a lesser standard currently but that will change as local support
builds.
------
acqq
From the about of the site:
> Stratechery is written by me, Ben Thompson. I am based in Taipei, Taiwan,
> and am fully supported by my work at Stratechery.
I think it's important to know the perspective of the author, being situated
in Taiwan:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan,_China](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan,_China)
"the People's Republic of China (PRC) ― which is widely recognized by the
international community as the legitimate representative of "China" ― does not
currently exercise jurisdiction over areas controlled by the Republic of China
(ROC)."
------
RocketSyntax
For a long time, they've taken a protectionist and appropriation approach to
all forms of business, not just software.
------
shalmanese
One thing you learn from spending time studying China is that the Chinese
state has an asymmetric advantage in much better understanding the US than the
US understands China and being very good at deliberately structuring their
systems and policies in a way that consistently exploits the weaknesses in how
Western liberal democracies are organized.
I think the much bigger story here is how China's state capitalism is being
used to probe structural weaknesses in Western free market capitalism. Under
free market capitalism, the private sector and the state are fundamentally
opposed. The government's proper role is to act as a guardian of the _system_
and establish the rules of play so that the "free market" can flourish and the
role of companies are to compete to the maximum extent inside the constraints
of regulation. State capitalism comes from a totally different set of first
principles, under state capitalism, the private sector is a collaborator with
the state and the work in concert to further the goals of the nation.
Companies are allowed to compete when it would be beneficial to the state that
they compete and forced to co-operate when it's beneficial to the state that
they co-operate. Both systems start from a very different set of first
principles and they each have their own pros and cons but China knows how to
exploit the cons of free market capitalism much better than the US knows how
to exploit the cons of state capitalism.
One structural weakness of free market capitalism is that it has intrinsic
difficulty dealing with co-ordination problems arising from prisoner's dilemma
situations. Take the recent "Taiwan, China" airline thing. China announces
that all airline websites must list the destination as "Taiwan, China" or risk
losing rights to access the Chinese air market. Now, this risk is a total
paper tiger, any sober minded analysis could demonstrate that China would be
hurt way more than losing flight volume than they would gain from words on a
webpage. If all US airlines stood up in unison and said they opposed the
change, China would rapidly back down, the whole "hurt feelings" stuff is just
window dressing for political negotiation. However, if all but one airline
caved, that airline would get all of China's flight volume, China would not be
meaningfully hurt but every other company would be damaged.
The problem is, there's no effective mechanism under free market capitalism to
do that. The "right" mechanism would be for the government to simply pass a
law saying all US airlines must not refer to Taiwan as Taiwan, China and China
would have immediately backed down. The problem is
a) The US is utterly incapable of passing legislation these days.
b) Even if it were capable, this would be something considered a massive
overreach by the state and would be dragged into lawsuits for years.
c) Absent legislation, such co-operation would be arguably even illegal as it
would run afoul of anti-trust as cartel like behavior.
So, as China predicted, you had airlines folding one by one over an utterly
trivial issue because the fundamental bedrock assumptions of free market
capitalism do not allow them to do otherwise.
The difference with the Houston Rockets case is that the NBA does exist as a
mechanism for there to be a unifying voice of the league. China initially
played this the same way it always does, by performing a surgical culling of
the Rockets specifically, they were expecting the rest of the league to be
cowed and force the Rockets to back down. What they didn't realize was that
professional sports in the US are run as a socialist collective and sports
leagues are one of the only areas of American life which are explicitly
sanctioned to run as a cartel. Thus, the NBA has the freedom to say fuck you
to China in a way that movie studios and airlines cannot because they realize
China needs the NBA more than the NBA needs China.
~~~
Loughla
>they realize China needs the NBA more than the NBA needs China.
I was with you right up until this point. How is that?
~~~
shalmanese
The NBA is enormously popular in China and an NBA blackout would be
catastrophically unpopular. Furthermore, it would be unpopular with precisely
the most damaging kind of people, the ones who are largely apolitical but just
want politics to not interfere with their daily enjoyments.
There's a common misconception in the West that because China is an
authoritarian state, it doesn't need to care about happiness of its citizens
which couldn't be further from the truth. The CCP's legitimacy derives from
the consent of the governed and the Chinese people know that.
~~~
wensi
I'd argue that the damages will only happen one way as people in China will
seek other ways to watch the NBA (which people have already been very
accustomed to anyways), but NBA will lose all sources of revenue from China.
------
mark_l_watson
I also have mostly been a supporter, at least in spirit, of China. I enjoyed
traveling there and I respect their tech abilities.
My support has changed, and I can’t help but think that this is about the ego
of Chinese leadership, since it seems like they are making some poor
decisions. Perhaps even stupid decisions.
I also wonder what the effect of President Trump has had in the poor decision
making process of Chinese leadership since Trump also makes a lot of bad
decisions and has lowered the bar on skill in diplomacy.
This is a sad situation since I really hope for lots of trade, travel between
countries, and respect for other countrys’ rights to their own culture and
autonomy.
~~~
supertiger
>I can’t help but think that this is about the ego of Chinese leadership
It is and isn't. I grew up in China and I think the Chinese government is
overacting to this NBA statement. If the Chinese fans decide to boycott NBA
that's their choice and rights, but the government should not ban NBA in
China.
At the same time, I am frustrated to see so much misconception and lack of
empathy in the discussions here. The territorial integrity of China has a very
important place in the minds of many Chinese citizens if not all given the
recent 100 years of Chinese history. HK is globally recognized as part of
China but yet we have seen all western media's efforts to spread anti-HK
police sentiment and turn a blind eye on the violent activities carried out by
so-called protestors.
I've lived in the US for over a decade. Before coming here, I had no idea how
sensitive racial comments are. Over time I learned about the history and never
made a racial joke in public or private occasions. It's not the best analogy,
but I want to point out that Morey's HK tweet is out of line and doesn't
deserve NBA's endorsement.
~~~
PavlovsCat
Simply not reporting on it as solution for police brutality, delegitimizing
the protestors, right after complaining about lack of empathy.
We'll be probably seeing more of that rather than less:
[http://arnogruen.net/the_need_to_punish_--
_article_by_arno_g...](http://arnogruen.net/the_need_to_punish_--
_article_by_arno_gruen.pdf)
~~~
supertiger
I am definitely not saying there absolutely is no police brutality, especially
when there are so many violent protestors. If HK police have the same protocol
as US police, many extreme violent protestors would have already faced a much
more serious consequence.
And I am certain there ARE lots of efforts to delegitimize the protestors.
However, it's also true that the vast majority of US media choose to not
report on the unimaginable violence activities carried out by many protestors
on daily basis.
A few friends of mine in HK (not trying to generalize it but a valid argument)
feel frustrated that they are the ones to suffer all the short and long term
consequences while the "friends of HK" western media would be more than ok to
watch HK burn in the fight for the true democracy that's so important and HK
never had under both UK or China's governence.
~~~
PavlovsCat
> especially when there are so many violent protestors
You're just doubling down on it. The protests were completely peaceful for
months, and even then police already were displaying wanton brutality. To
blame this on the victims is expected as it is invalid.
> If HK police have the same protocol as US police, many extreme violent
> protestors would have already faced a much more serious consequence.
For what, for singing?
[https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/ddmk54/police_cap...](https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/ddmk54/police_captured_dropping_a_rubbish_bin_from/)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/d1b4kg/hong_kong_...](https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/d1b4kg/hong_kong_police_throws_tear_gas_grenade_at/)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/dccy0s/hong_kong_...](https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/dccy0s/hong_kong_police_forcefully_pushes_bystander_over/)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/ddllcl/statement_...](https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/ddllcl/statement_from_a_teacher_regarding_the_incident/)
Just a bunch, there's hundreds more. And yes, I'm also are of violent excesses
of protesters, these do not ever justify what the cops are doing. And even
with all the issues US police has, this isn't even remotely in the same ball
park.
> while the "friends of HK" western media would be more than ok to watch HK
> burn
You're right now excusing police brutality, you don't get to point fingers
like that. Nobody wants to see HK burn, I want to government to react with
something OTHER than violence to what are perfectly reasonable demands, and I
want the supporters of said violence to stop with the sophistry, while
pretending they're the ones _against_ violence*, against HK being a depraved
place where the elderly and children get brutalized just because other people
have no backbone.
------
tpmx
This article frames this as the US vs China, but it's really been the "Western
world" vs China.
And the western world has been incredibly naive and uncoordinated when it
comes to dealing with China. We've all accepted the incredibly one-sided deal,
in some kind of idealistic hope that the Chinese would latch on to "western"
values of democracy etc just by trading with us.
Edit: World -> Western world.
~~~
mfer
The world vs China? The US, Canada, the EU, and Australia make up less than
20% of the worlds population. India, the many countries of Africa and South
and Central America are places I've not heard from on this. And, there is a
large population there.
Is it the world vs China or the parts of the world we typically listen to vs
China?
~~~
guelo
China is applying economic pressure across the world to get its way. If they
pull this shit on the US imagine what they can get away with with smaller
poorer countries.
~~~
mfer
Large businesses often have rules around single sourcing of anything. They
don't want that single source to cause them problems if something happens to
it. For example, even if they buy 90% of their servers from HPE they may still
get 10% from Dell to have multiple suppliers.
It would be wise for many organizations to take that idea and apply it to
countries of origin for their things. That way instability in a region doesn't
threaten things back home.
This doesn't help things like the NBA whose revenue model is based on bodies
and eyeballs. But, it can help some industries break control... as long as
they have goals other than to gain all the money.
------
ur-whale
Can hacker news be read from within China?
~~~
yorwba
Not since ≈66 days ago:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20599249](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20599249)
------
asdf333
really amazing piece of writing. bravo. well written.
------
AFascistWorld
This is just inevitable, if it's not NBA, it could be any big company who gets
caught in it, execs can pretend it will be all good and surely do wish this
day comes as late as possible so they can make the most of it.
This is like many things in the current world, vicious cycles, the more
unsympathetic ordinary Chinese perceive outside China, the more they will
embrace the CCP and strongmen, the more powerful the party will be.
And solution seems don't exist. Xi said "You don't eat the meal then break the
wok", So there's only one question:
Who's next?
~~~
mcphage
> So there's only one question:
> Who's next?
Well, Blizzard, already. So more like, who's after that :-)
------
impatientduck
How much would it cost the US to source all of its products in countries other
than China? I imagine it would be expensive, but possible over something like
a 5 year span.
------
avocado4
I'm addition to trade and human rights-related issues we should also be
talking about the Great Firewall as a protectionist tool. China blocks &
throttles European / Western digital services but we allow their tech to be
sold here. That's not fair. WTO rules should be updated to address digital
censorship.
~~~
moltensodium
The WTO/World Bank is an arm of the US State Department.
The rules serve to further US diplomatic and corporate interests, not openness
or trade.
~~~
freeone3000
Okay, so then we should DEFINITELY use it here, to promote US values over
Chinese ones.
~~~
moltensodium
Ok. Just want to make sure we're all on the same page, this is about
nationalism and competition, not freedom or trade. Pretending like we're
opening the world up for everyone to become magical free millionaires just
makes us seem naive and dishonest.
------
barnesto
"Second, sometimes different cultures simply have fundamentally different
values."
Communism is not a culture. This isn't a
------
colorincorrect
counterpoint: anglo-sphere internet is very hostile towards right-winged
content, with the exception of a few special purpose "containment"-websites
and social media personalities. but these people are also pretty much ignored.
this is defacto censorship, or more accurately, a publication ban.
~~~
Loughla
counter-counterpoint: much right-winged content is associated with hate speech
and violence. Further, many users of websites such as this are young and tend
to skew more left of center, and therefore will gravitate toward that content
anyway.
~~~
chillacy
Something to think about:
> “We are strongly dissatisfied and we oppose Silver’s claim to support
> Morey’s right of free expression. We believe that any speech that challenges
> national sovereignty and social stability is not within the scope of freedom
> of speech,” CCTV said in its statement in Chinese, which was translated by
> CNBC.
Hate speech is off the table in the US because historically it's been used to
stoke ethnic tension in a diverse society, people get hurt and die, and breaks
social cohesion.
Is it fair to say that criticizing the government is off the table in China
because historically revolutions have caused so much death and destruction,
and breaks social cohesion?
~~~
xfs
You have a good analogy in that China has different systems of political
correctness. But it's not just fear of the consequences as to why criticizing
the government offends China.
First, criticism, or rather, speech welds actual power in China and can effect
real change in the power structure, unlike that in the West where freedom of
speech is like freedom of wild animals - free, but powerless. And second, the
CCP is actually totalitarian in the reverse sense that it is the total
responsibility of the CCP to run every aspect of the country, listen to all
the people, and solve all grievances and problems, because if they don't, they
lose legitimacy and heads will roll, starting from the highest place then
millions. This is coming from both politically Leninist vanguardism and
culturally the notion of the Mandate of Heaven.
Now we can argue this form of government lacks checks and balances and likely
produces extreme outcomes, but it can also be argued that it is truly held
accountable to the people to deliver what the people want in contrast to the
west where the government is merely responsible to the strongest lobbies.
------
ausjke
it's either China, or the ROW(rest of world) these days. the co-existence is
getting harder these days.
time to break up, on all fronts.
------
peter_retief
It is time to stand up for the people of Hong Kong without apology Stop
apologising to this brutal regime you cowards!
------
reilly3000
I think Western memory about the Opium Wars is a lot weaker than China's. They
have a moral defense against any accusation of economic imperialism. Indeed,
communism would have never taken hold if the British hadn't done such
devastating harm.
~~~
jcranmer
What you're arguing is that, since China was previously a victim, China is
incapable of being imperial. That's no comfort to countries which are staring
down a gauntlet of Western imperialism being replaced with Chinese
imperialism.
~~~
ben_jones
An enemy (eastern imperialism) of your enemy (western imperialism) is your
friend. China was a victim in the Opium wars and then again to Japan in the
1930s and 1940s. This is all important context that needs to be considered.
To be clear I don't support China or Eastern imperialism in (significantly)
Africa, the ME, or the US. But if you want to fight it you have to be
informed, history repeats itself.
~~~
reilly3000
Also to be clear I don't support China's activities or posture around the
world. I think they are building an empire, and its execution and culture are
antithetical to western values. I'm just saying that the West cannot claim a
moral high ground in how we've treated China, and in the US, Chinese
immigrants.
~~~
ben_jones
Oh I absolutely agree, there is also a rich irony in the United States
condemning financial imperialism when we literally wrote the entire playbook
for it in the 20th century.
------
TurkishPoptart
>TikTok, the popular Chinese-owned social network, instructs its moderators to
censor videos that mention Tiananmen Square, Tibetan independence, or the
banned religious group Falun Gong, according to leaked documents detailing the
site’s moderation guidelines. The documents, revealed by the Guardian for the
first time, lay out how ByteDance, the Beijing-headquartered technology
company that owns TikTok, is advancing Chinese foreign policy aims abroad
through the app.
>The revelations come amid rising suspicion that discussion of the Hong Kong
protests on TikTok is being censored for political reasons: a Washington Post
report earlier this month noted that a search on the site for the city-state
revealed “barely a hint of unrest in sight”.
Welp, Communism runs the world, if you didn't know...
~~~
dang
Maybe so, but please don't post unsubstantive comments here.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Joyent Smart Platform, open-source server-side JavaScript web framework. - Raphael
http://discuss.joyent.com/viewtopic.php?id=25544
======
mtw
previously know as reasonably smart platform.
imho, they need to showcase a "wow" demo app, in the same way django featured
ljworld or rails had the web app done in 5 minutes
------
jotto
does anyone understand what this platform does? is it a cloud computing api?
~~~
defrex
It's a platform-as-service deal. Like Google App Engine but with JavaScript
rather then Python.
------
TweedHeads
I have a dream that someday JS will be the only language on the server and the
client.
I hope Google implements Server JS in AppEngine next to Python and Java to
give it the push it needs to completely take over the world.
No, I haven't tested any server JS flavor yet, I hope they are as easy as the
client version.
<b><% i=2; print ['sucks','dunno','roolz'][i]; %></b>
lovely!
~~~
olegp
Given that Rhino runs on top of the JVM, ServerJS is already available on
AppEngine. Take a look here:
[http://dev.helma.org/ng/Running+Rhino+and+Helma+NG+on+Google...](http://dev.helma.org/ng/Running+Rhino+and+Helma+NG+on+Google+App+Engine/)
------
Vivekpuri
Server side js is so 90s style idea. Extremely slow. Although I haven't tried
joyents product....
~~~
voodootikigod
To be completely honest, Server Side JS or ServerJS has been growing a huge
following of interested parties doing some amazing things with JavaScript
(Narwhal <http://narwhaljs.org/> , ServerJS
<https://wiki.mozilla.org/ServerJS> , NodeJS <http://tinyclouds.org/node/> ).
The sheer fact that you openly admit that you haven't even tried the product
screams "troll" and the whole "extremely slow" without any base or founding is
completely ridiculous. Maybe you should take a look at the product and
movement before flaming it.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
C# vs C++: The mythical "twice as efficient" application - skrebbel
http://www.neowin.net/forum/index.php?automodule=blog&blogid=460&showentry=3973
======
matthewinrw
It's obvious the author doesn't work with market data. Those "mythical"
applications are all running wall street. You won't find a single matching
engine written in C# these days.
The short answer is that SRAM is faster than DRAM, and you can be a lot
stingier with memory in C++ and hence fit more into the fast type of RAM.
Stack-based allocation is not by any means an "advanced" technique, and is the
absolute fastest form of memory management, full stop. It can deallocate an
arbitrary number of objects in a single assembly instruction. Good C++ makes
extensive use of the stack for this reason.
Stack allocated objects are densely packed into the L1 cache, making them
faster than objects from an allocator which might spray them over the address
space in suboptimal scenarios.
This absolute control over how memory is being used, (_when_ done well) is the
difference between "gee that's pretty fast" and "wow".
------
facorreia
One of Sutter's argument is that C++ is more cost-efficient in a data center
due to lower energy costs. Yet, I haven't heard of many SaaS applications
developed in C++. The Rails-style "just throw more servers at it" way is still
very popular (which Sutter mentions as optimizing for programmer
productivity).
I suppose for startups the answer is to eschew premature optimization (for
cost) and get the MVP done as quickly as possible (optimizing for programmer
productivity). And, if and when demand requires, invest enough to optimize the
bottlenecks.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Show HN: Cowyo: jot notes and lists – with encryption and self-destruction - qrv3w
https://github.com/schollz/cowyo
======
qrv3w
I made this. I'd love feedback about this project.
This was inspired by [http://notepad.cc](http://notepad.cc) and
[http://shrib.com](http://shrib.com), but with features that I've always
wanted in a notepad system (encryption / page locking / math support /
practical lists). Its written in Golang and designed to be simple and light
weight so it runs off a Raspberry Pi server.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
The page you requested has not yet been optimized for a mobile device - wslh
http://m.ibm.com/http/www-03.ibm.com/security/services/endpoint-data-protection/
======
LoSboccacc
funny thing is if you click continue and shrink the page behind, the text is
actually responsive :D
~~~
wslh
It seems like the web design team includes a lawyer.
~~~
LoSboccacc
at IBM? half the company probably is.
[http://dev.hasenj.org/post/3272592502/ibm-and-its-
minions](http://dev.hasenj.org/post/3272592502/ibm-and-its-minions)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Internal Versus External BLOBs in SQLite - raphaelj
https://www.sqlite.org/intern-v-extern-blob.html
======
mattbillenstein
How old is this benchmark? HDD or SSD (I think the former given the 2011
reference.
A filesystem is the canonical means for storing files - just use it - it's
incredibly handy to have regular tools at your disposal for managing those
files outside of the database. The only case I can think where maybe files in
the db makes sense is if you have millions of really tiny files (100-200
bytes).
Having files in the db maybe avoids an extra seek - but in any real system
high throughput system, you're probably leaning towards SSDs where you get
many more seeks/s than you do on a spinny disk.
If your application needs something more like a distributed filesystem, there
are better things (gluster, moosefs, even nfs, etc).
~~~
gilgoomesh
> A filesystem is the canonical means for storing files - just use it
Sure but what about the many use cases where you're not really storing files
but metadata or other generated data?
A simple example might be photo libraries. The photos themselves are files but
are the 5kB small and 50kB medium thumbnails generated from the photos worth
storing as files? Or should they be stored as blobs in the database along with
their other metadata?
It's good to know where the cutoff should be.
~~~
mattbillenstein
Metadata makes sense in the db - it's structured non-binary data.
But I think the binary thumbnails and so forth should almost always be files
on the filesystem.
------
xpaulbettsx
Caution that on Windows (and even OS X to some extent), this graph will be
__very __different - NTFS perf for accessing a lot of small files is very slow
compared to Linux.
------
Spooky23
I've always pushed back at storing blob data in databases in most cases --
probably 80-90% of the time depending on the job.
Why? Databases are all about storing data in a structure defined by the
relationships between the records. In most cases with files, the relevant data
is the metadata or other structured data, not the file.
If you do the math, it's rarely cost effective to store unstructured data in a
structured database. Databases are always harder to scale.
On the file side, there are dozens of ways to effectively deliver files that
are cheaper, more scalable and simpler for many use cases.
~~~
electrum
Databases also have advantages: transactions, durable logging, replication,
integrated backups, etc.
Tom Kyte has some insightful points in this thread:
[https://asktom.oracle.com/pls/asktom/f?p=100:11:0::::P11_QUE...](https://asktom.oracle.com/pls/asktom/f?p=100:11:0::::P11_QUESTION_ID:1011065100346196442)
"Do I want you to keep MY medical stuff in a directory, unsecured, unmanaged,
not backed up like the database is - we have no idea if recovery is possible,
who accessed it last? Who has access to it."
"if this data is valuable to your business, if this data is necessary for your
business, if the loss of this data would damage your ability to do business -
it has no business NOT being in the database."
~~~
xorcist
Relatational databases has their advantages compared with hierarchical
filesystems of blobs, but that comment is really completely beside the point.
File systems are simpler and backups and replication are really much more
straightforward. As anyone who did disaster recovery of Oracle databases can
attest to, there are a lot of details to get wrong.
It boils down to what data you want to store and what your access patterns
look like.
~~~
Spooky23
Great point -- Oracle has a solid capability that is easy to operationally
screw up. Database recovery is usually a real shitshow.
When you go to other platforms, you need solid process AND deep exterior in
whether the database can do what you want. Can MySQL handle the same recovery
scenarios that Oracle can? With which storage engines?
------
bch
I've ran into situations where this is pertinent information to know w/ a
music pet-project. I ended up jamming all my .mp3s into the DB though, because
not only is it storage and access in this case, but the collection (in a DB)
is in a defacto archive; all I do is copy the (admittedly large) DB where I
need it, and I've got my data and metadata. If I were doing it again, I'd
rethink this design, which isn't to say I'd abandon it, but I'd reconsider it;
it's unclear whether the all-in-one solution is worth the bulk, though it
might still be.
~~~
bane
I'd always be concerned of some minor level of corruption to the big file,
something that would only ruin a song or two, could render your entire dB
useless.
~~~
icefox
So the natural question is why don't "file systems" (aka big database) become
useless with some minor level or corruption?
~~~
hobs
I was about to comment that a database will only be corrupt if it is corrupted
in the same way a file system would be corrupted, or its not a great database
file format.
I work with SQL Server and while database corruption can/does happen, I often
can get away with a row level restore from a backup, no problem.
I still dont like storing big ass files in a database though, I dont love the
additional level of abstraction when you generally dont need to have a high
transactional/relational system.
~~~
emn13
I think you've got that backwards: if you have a database for _something_ , is
it worth the additional levels of abstraction to _also_ store some data in
files?
If your data is fairly small, and perf not the biggest issue (which is pretty
common), you might as well go for the simplest solution, which is going to be
purely DB or purely FS, not some mixture of the two.
~~~
hobs
Agreed, the overhead of maintaining two solutions can be a huge burden
(especially when troubleshooting something going wrong via the synthesis of
two solutions), but I definitely called out "big ass files" because the
difference between some text data and some smaller blob is almost nothing in
terms of performance.
------
herf
You could compare with an append-only-file (with offline compaction), in which
case saving tons of "file open" operations would actually be a big win,
especially if you ever use a network file system. In some cases, a "simple"
log+index can beat both schemes.
Also, I've stored lots & lots of photos in a filesystem, and backup is very
hard. Backing up big files is just a lot easier.
~~~
pjc50
How is backing up lots of small files harder than a small number of big files?
With which software?
~~~
herf
Using rsync and 20M files is a good enough example: \- to check the date of
each file on UNIX you must run "stat" once per file (unless you have an
external log that says what to skip) so that's very slow. \- to backup a big
file is "\--append-verify" or something like this and one streaming read per
file.
------
PythonicAlpha
I think, that is a rather complicated question. You should also take into
account how accessing other data is affected by large blobs that reside in the
same database. For example: you have a table with large data blobs and other
tables with conventional relational data. The blobs will take a lot of the
cache size away from the other data. Also by increasing the database size, you
will have potential longer access times, at least when you use spinning hard
drives.
So, several things to think about (make cache bigger, how much grows the
overall db size) that can change the database behavior.
Of course those numbers can give some directions, but since only the blob data
was taken into account, it can not give full information.
I personally would most of the time prefer smaller db sizes, at least, on edge
cases. Relational databases are great for structured data -- unstructured data
is not their specialty.
~~~
cefstat
About 9 years ago I had a small site where both page content and some large
PDF files were stored in the same SQLite database. Nothing extravagant: about
20 pages and 10 PDF files, each PDF file averaging 2-3 MBs. The website was
extremely and consistently slow: it would take several seconds to load any
page. I eventually figured out that the problem was the binary blobs. After
moving the PDF files from the database to the filesystem the load times went
below 0.1s.
Since then I have not put large binary blobs in a database but I wonder if I
would get reasonable performance by putting them in a _separate_ database
instead of mixing them with other small-size rows.
~~~
emn13
That's weird, and should not have happened. I've done similar things with
sqlite databases many times that size, and though the FS might have been even
faster, sqlite was still more than fast enough (as in, sub-10ms responses the
norm).
I suspect there's some way in which your access pattern or usage was
suboptimal. Perhaps you had big reads with small writes in a transaction, or
your network streamed directly from db leaving connections open a long time,
or... something, because there's no way this should have taken so long.
------
geku
Wondering how MySQL and Postgres perform. Does anybody have links to such
benchmarks?
------
btrask
SQLite supports a single writer at a time, so writing large amounts of data
limits your write throughput. A file system can cache data for several files
concurrently and fsync them independently when you're done.
I believe SQLite also has to write the data twice, using the WAL. Maybe there
is an optimization to avoid that though.
~~~
tines
> I believe SQLite also has to write the data twice, using the WAL. Maybe
> there is an optimization to avoid that though.
If I understand correctly, it writes the data twice if you're _not_ using WAL.
With WAL, it only writes the data once [1].
[1]: The "Performance Considerations" section of
[https://www.sqlite.org/wal.html](https://www.sqlite.org/wal.html)
~~~
seppo0010
The data is written twice when using WAL. From the same link you pasted:
> The original content is preserved in the database file and the changes are
> appended into a separate WAL file.
The difference is whether the journal keeps the new data (WAL) or the old data
(not WAL). If you are writing big chunks of data, WAL will probably be more
I/O intensive.
Taking a wild guess I'll say that if you are adding data to the database, and
not using WAL, the data will only be written once since the journal won't keep
a reference to old data if no pages is being overwritten.
~~~
tines
Ah, I see the difference now, thanks.
------
microcolonel
HTTP headers are telling me that this was last modified on 2014-12-18, I
really hope they didn't JUST get around to testing ubuntu 11.04.
------
Sami_Lehtinen
Another great question is, if there's any reason to use smaller than 4096 byte
pages with current operating and file systems?
------
Sami_Lehtinen
Isn't file system just a hierarchical key value storage? Think about it.
------
Animats
Note that the performance difference rarely exceeds 2:1 either way. So this
isn't a performance issue, unless you're using SQLite for something bigger
than SQLite is for.
~~~
delinka
I don't think I'd define "rarely" as "nearly 25% of cases." Seems it happens
with enough frequency to at least be aware.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Revisiting the spectacular failure that was the Bill Gates deposition - CrankyBear
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/09/revisiting-the-spectacular-failure-that-was-the-bill-gates-deposition/
======
icelancer
This was written by someone who has no idea what a deposition is about, or is
intentionally misrepresenting it. The USG's depositions were PR stunts, filmed
on purpose to make Gates look bad.
If you've ever been deposed (and I have), then you know that Gates' approach
was close to optimal when dealing with lawyers.
Bill's biggest mistake was having a terrible attitude and bad posture when
answering questions. He made it too personal. Otherwise, the strict answers
were mostly ideal and are often used as tutorials by attorneys to show those
two things:
1) How not to have the posture/tone/etc in your voice when answering
questions, but...
2) ...that this is an adversarial discussion and you should seek extreme
clarity every single time.
~~~
angrais
Could you please expand on WHY posture/tone/etc are important? W
~~~
gilrain
Could you explain how it is possible not to understand that posture, tone, etc
are important?
~~~
angrais
I am aware that posture, tone etc are important factors in communication. My
question above asked WHY they are important in this context. Specifically, why
the OP thinks they are important given they have been in such a scenario.
------
twoodfin
Having followed these events closely at the time, the Gates/Boies deposition
videos are fascinating in their entirety; I’m overdue for a rewatch.
Despite having been a mild OS/2 and Java partisan, I agree with the general
consensus in this thread that Gates gets a bad rap for surely following his
expensive lawyers’ advice on how to respond during a deposition. Boies’
strategy was to assume that as a competitive CEO and logically-minded
programmer, Gates would indeed follow that advice to an extreme that could be
made to look evasive and sinister. It’s not an accident that they spend so
much time arguing over definitions of industry terms or what some Microsoft VP
means by “ours”. Boies at any time could have accepted Gates’ understanding
and moved on, but instead keeps calmly needling on subtle distinctions to rile
him up.
EDIT: Yikes, now rewatching and I forgot that the first half hour of the
deposition is Boies reading Gates carefully selected definitions out of the
1997 Microsoft Computer Dictionary and asking him if he accepts them as
written. The idea that it was _Gates_ who wanted to litigate terminology is
nuts.
------
Gunax
I don't agree with the article at all.
I think it's equating two very different anti-trust cases. Apple maintains
control of what its users can install on their own devices--Microsoft never
did that.
Just offering a free software should not be considered anti-trust. For one,
browsers have been unfairly singled out. Why not ban MS Paint or notepad too?
How about solitaire?
Now if Microsoft had restricted users from installing another browser in
Windows, _then_ I would agree it's anti-competitive. And this is much more
akin to what Apple is doing.
The author wants to paint MS as hypocritical, but aside from being accused of
anti-competitive practices, there are no similarities.
And second, I despise how one's deposition attitude plays so much into the
media's narrative. It doesn't matter if Gates was kind or rude, agreeable or
flippant, sloppy or well-dressed. The only that that matters are legal facts.
~~~
AnthonyMouse
> For one, browsers have been unfairly singled out. Why not ban MS Paint or
> notepad too? How about solitaire?
There was a reason it was browsers.
At the time there was rather a lot of software written against the Win32 API
and nothing else. It was a moat. You needed that software, so you needed
Windows. The web threatened to bridge the moat -- if people write web
applications for Netscape, and Netscape runs on not only Windows but Mac and
Solaris and everything else, no more moat.
So the strategy with Internet Explorer was to make it the dominant browser on
Windows (which was 90% of desktops), and then add all kinds of IE-specific
features and get web developers to use them, so their web pages only worked in
IE. Then the user gets a dependency on a web page with an Active X control
that runs on Wintel but not Mac/PowerPC or Solaris/SPARC, so they have to use
Windows. And they have to use IE, which enables _more_ web developers to
target IE instead of open standards.
The problem wasn't that it was free. The problem was that it was free _and_
non-standard _and_ the non-standard bits were tied to Windows.
~~~
listenallyall
That's a pretty poor argument for govt intervention. Why? Because all of that
Windows-only stuff existed, and the market ultimately rejected it. ActiveX
controls? Yeah I remember those. Same with Java applets, Flash, Silverlight.
The government didn't need to get involved in getting rid of any of these.
~~~
sk5t
At the time, both Java and standards-compliant browsers posed major threats to
Microsoft, and Microsoft did a pretty good job of messing up both. Only in
distant hindsight do ActiveX and MSFT's hobbled 1.1 JVM seem inconsequential.
~~~
listenallyall
Neither Java nor "standards-based browsers" are things the govt has any role
or authority to protect. The govt (via anti-trust law) breaks up established
monopolies, and very rarely.
In fact, if Microsoft was indeed threatened by a programming language, or by a
couple of nerdy academics (not even a company), that would greatly weaken the
govt's case that they were a dominant monopoly.
~~~
sk5t
Kind of a strawman argument by dint of hyper-narrow focus, isn't it? Sure,
there are no laws granting the government authority or duty to nurture Java or
browsers; however, what Microsoft did more generally was to squash potential
competition by leveraging their _extremely_ entrenched OS monopoly.
Java is (or was) much more than a programming language. Rather it was viewed
as something more like an operating system. Write once run everywhere, etc. By
comparison I don't imagine Microsoft worried much about Pascal or Delphi.
Further, it seems... difficult to argue that a company that crushes nascent
threats can't be a monopoly.
~~~
listenallyall
> hyper-narrow focus
Lol -- you chose to focus on those 2 specific items, not me.
> squash potential competition
Virtually every single feature of Microsoft desktop OS'es could potentially be
provided by an alternative provider. Many were and still are -- disk
defragmentation, disk compression, anti-virus, firewall, web server, ftp
client, image editing, database drivers, etc etc. People used to pay money for
3rd party utilities to expand beyond DOS's 640kb RAM limit... should Windows
be prevented from handling memory management in order to not suppress
competition? Seems like the most basic function of an OS. Early on, you
couldn't print a spreadsheet in landscape mode without a 3rd-party utility...
should the government disallow Windows from enabling landscape printing? Does
Putty have an anti-competitive claim now that ssh is included in recent
versions of Windows 10? How about accessibility features... should disabled
individuals be denied use of standard Windows releases because the inclusion
of a screen reader, magnification, etc would be anti-competitive with
commercial alternatives?
> crushes nascent threats
Microsoft "crushed" neither Java nor web standards, both of which are doing
fine and outlasted Internet Explorer, the focus of the government's case. Most
of the problems Java does have, starting with poor stewardship, are entirely
Sun/Oracle's own making.
------
jasoneckert
The 2019 documentary "Inside Bill's Brain"
([https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCv29JKmHNY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCv29JKmHNY))
definitely focused a part on how Bill still hates talking about this
deposition.
He makes it very clear in that documentary how much he regrets that he wore
his disdain for the antitrust suit on his sleeve, as it played directly into
the prosecutor's hands.
~~~
quelsolaar
I was so disappointed with that documentary. 3 hours, with\ bill, and no real
questions about the antitrust stuff, or about Microsoft stance on Linux and
open source, His relationship with Apple and Steve jobs, His relationship with
Paul Allen and Steve Balmer, the birth of X-Box, the war against Lotus123, and
Word Perfect, the original deal with IBM, and the failed tablets, WinFS,
Microsoft Bob, and loads of other things that would be interesting to get his
take on.
~~~
bananamerica
That was really not the focus of the doc. As the title implies, they wanted to
take a peek in the interesting ideas going on in his mind right now.
~~~
quelsolaar
I was hoping we we would find more "Inside bill's brain", then just toilets.
~~~
aaron695
Toilets are a fucking big problem.
Toilets are one of the reason why we left a past of disease and death from
sewage contamination.
Yet open defecation is a problem in so much of the world.
So this is exactly what I wanted to see how he deals with. A hard problem that
is so vital. How does his brain tackle that. Especially how it's unlikely a
computer problem
But they did totally miss the mark on talking about it, it was what I wanted
exactly to see and was disappointed it was so disappointing.
Maybe we couldn't tackle it. But I have seen other specials where he had made
a unique start on the problem.
~~~
quelsolaar
If I got to spend days interviewing Bill, I would love to here about his
projects to build toilets, and eradicate decises, but I would find the time to
ask other questions too.
My feeling was that the documentarian got to make the documentary on the
condition of not asking the hard questions about Bills past.
------
DavidSJ
Q: Okay. Let me ask you to look at Trial Exhibit 560. This is a message from you to Mr. Ballmer and Mr. Chase with a copy to Mr. Maritz and some other people also given copies dated August 15, 1997 at 4:07 p.m. on the subject of IBM and Netscape; correct?
A: Uh-huh
Q: BY MR. BOIES: And you type in here Importance: High."
A: No.
Q: No?
A: No, I didn't type that.
Q: Who typed in "High"?
A: A computer.
Q: A computer. Why did the computer type in "High"?
A: It's an attribute of the e-mail.
Q: And who set the attribute of the e-mail?
A: Usually the sender sends that attribute.
Q: Who is the sender here, Mr. Gates?
A: In this case it appears I'm the sender.
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-
srv/business/longterm/micr...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-
srv/business/longterm/microsoft/documents/gatespart8a.htm)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRelVFm7iJE&t=38m07s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRelVFm7iJE&t=38m07s)
~~~
ImprobableTruth
Eh, I think I can understand where he's coming from. There's a difference
between choosing "high" from a drop down and manually typing out "Importance:
High". The former is kinda throwaway, while the latter is more serious. He's
definitely super awkward about it though.
~~~
DavidSJ
Sure, but he's clearly being evasive. He could simply have said: "I didn't
type it; I marked it as high importance."
~~~
_-___________-_
Yep, he could have been less evasive, and then they'd have a recording of him
saying "I marked it as high importance."
Being evasive like this is only a problem in depositions to the extent that it
gives the media fuel to make the general public hate you. It's pretty much the
optimal strategy in terms of the deposition itself.
~~~
DavidSJ
Not if it makes the judge hate you, too.
------
chance_state
The entire thing is on YouTube. Part one starts here:
[https://youtu.be/m_2m1qdqieE](https://youtu.be/m_2m1qdqieE)
Worth a watch imo.
~~~
bawolff
Thanks for linking. That was interesting.
I only watched the first little bit, but I could understand how this could
play badly for PR, but i'm pretty sympathetic to gates here. Seems like they
want to use layman simplified definitions of tech concepts, then catch him up
on technical nitty gritty.
~~~
Gunax
Clearly Gates sees where this is going: first ask him to agree to the
definition, then reveal that the definition doesn't include 'viewing HTML' (or
'editing text files', or 'creating images' etc.).
Of course we all know that dictionary definitions are meant to introduce
someone unfamiliar to the topic, and not to enumerate every possible function.
Using that logic I could say that 'cars don't have air-conditioning' since the
definition of an automobile is "A self-propelled passenger vehicle that
usually has four wheels and an internal-combustion engine".
------
Sebb767
> [...] Microsoft was now comfortable supporting the Davids of the tech
> industry.
This is a 29 year old company with a four-digit number of employees worth 17.3
Billion USD. Fortnite alone seems to have been a quite solid share of the App
Store's gaming revenue. This is not a "David".
Sure, Apple, Google and Microsoft are worth one to two orders of magnitude
more. But this is like seeing a small person fighting a bigger person from the
perspective of an ant.
~~~
8note
Wasn't David a king?
Goliath would have only been up to like double David's size anyways, so orders
of magnitude sounds bigger than the David/Goliath difference.
~~~
swiley
I think at the point he defeated Goliath David was still just a shepherd.
There may have been a prophecy he would become king but I don't think he had
even been anointed.
------
Erlich_Bachman
While there might or might not be questionable or illegal things that Bill
Gates did, by himself or as the MS corporation at that time, the over-fixation
of the article on how he is talking to the attorney in the deposition seems
misguided and amateurish.
Boies: What non-Microsoft browsers were you concerned about in January of 1996?
Gates: I don’t know what you mean “concerned.”
Boies: What is it about the word “concerned” that you don’t understand?
Gates: I’m not sure what you mean by it.
Boies: Is—
Gates: Is there a document where I use that term?
Boies: Is the term “concerned” a term that you’re familiar with in the English language?
Gates: Yes.
Boies: Does it have a meaning that you’re familiar with?
Gates: Yes.
Isn't this how you are supposed to talk to lawyers? They make it their
business to routinely try to force you into their own prepared lines of
questioning and try to use your own words against you and make you appear to
say things that you didn't really mean. This is their job.
If you are on the other side of this, it is your job to prevent this use of
language and make sure that they don't manage to implicate yourself in any
way, by nonchalant use of words. Being vigilant about your use of specific
words in specific contents, and about querying what exactly they are trying to
say by each question seems like a good default approach to the problem of not
giving your opponent attorney more ammunition than they should fairly have. I
imagine Mr. Gates was used to mistreatment by lawyers and simply speaks their
language at that point.
~~~
pwned1
If you haven’t been deposed this will look weird. But depositions are about
“gotcha” moments, so your job as the person being deposed is to play the game
and only answer questions with minimal information and force the attorney
asking questions to really work for it. It’s about being purely logical. If
they ask you what two plus two is, respond vaguely and ask for clarification.
“Are you asking about numbers? Or objects? What does plus mean in the context
of this question.” Etc.
~~~
reaperducer
To the public, it looks like another "It depends on what the meaning of the
word ‘is’ is."
The general public hates lawyers. But it hates weasels even more. And CEOs
acting like weasels even more than that. That's why congressional hearings are
sometimes delightful to watch. It feeds our hatred of CEO "others."
There are plenty of CEOs who can talk to lawyers, even in a public forum, and
do it well. Splitting hairs never looks good. It makes you look guilty.
~~~
meowface
Gates wasn't splitting hairs there, though. "Concerned about" could mean
"concerned about as potential competitors we need to pay attention to",
"concerned about as potential competitors who might gain more market share
than us", "concerned about as potential competitors we might need to stifle",
"concerned about as a potential danger to our browser monopoly", "concerned
about as potential competitors who might develop features users want which we
should also look into developing", etc.
Any company offering a product could be said to have executives who are
concerned about competing products. It could range from malicious, anti-
competitive behavior to simply wanting to provide a good experience.
That's why Gates wanted the lawyer to use less charged, ambiguous language. I
personally believe he was engaging in unethical anti-competitive behavior, but
you're going to have to nail him on it fair and square, rather than playing
word tricks with him.
>The general public hates lawyers. But it hates weasels even more. And CEOs
acting like weasels even more than that.
The lawyer was the one employing weasel words, there, by definition [1].
"Paying attention to" or "aware of" would be a much more fair and clear
phrase.
>Splitting hairs never looks good. It makes you look guilty.
Yes, and the lawyer was probably aware of that and deliberately exploiting the
ability to create such a perception. Either you fall into the trap and later
are pointed to as sounding guilty, or you demand rigor and sound guilty in the
moment. It's a double bind.
[1] Oxford definition of "weasel words": "words or statements that are
intentionally ambiguous or misleading."
~~~
reaperducer
You can act like a weasel and not employ weasel words. They're two different
concepts. Nobody stated that Mr. Gates was using weasel words.
~~~
function_seven
On the contrary, he's making sure that Boies isn't going to weasel meaning
into his responses. Demanding that questions be more precisely-worded than
they are.
------
1vuio0pswjnm7
This is probably why Zuckerberg will never testify in a federal court. Like
Gates, he has "never groveled for a job or sufffered many of the indignities
most of us suffer on a regular basis."
------
adventured
> No longer the Goliath it once was—in large part because of the ascendance of
> companies like Google, Facebook, and Apple made possible by a settlement
> Microsoft signed
Hahaha, haha, ha. I'll just stop you right there, Dan Goodin.
Microsoft is several times the goliath they were at their Windows monopoly /
anti-trust days peak.
If you had to pick the company that will be the most profitable tech company
five years from now, who would you pick? Apple? Facebook? Google? Amazon?
It's Microsoft. They'll be the most profitable company on earth five years
from now.
Operating income the last four quarters:
Microsoft: $53 billion
Apple is at $67 billion and barely growing. Their operating income has
increased by a mere 11-12% in the last four years. Microsoft's operating
income increased by about 140% over that time.
Google? They're going to soon have half the operating income of Microsoft. In
terms of profit centers they've entirely failed to branch out from search
advertising; that dog has largely seen its day, their growth potential in
search advertising is rapidly heading toward zero (and Google is soon going to
lose all of China for Android; it's a 100% guarantee they will move off of
Android as soon as possible, nothing will stop that outcome now). Google as a
corporation is a zombie, it walks around headless, directionless, with the
least talented management team among major tech companies. Larry and Sergey
are entirely responsible for that mess.
Amazon has 1/3 the operating income of Microsoft and will never catch up; and
AWS will eventually be spun off anyway. Facebook's growth rate is going to
continue to trend downward. Facebook applied the brakes to their thin
operating model several years ago, and has gone on a massive cost expansion
since. Under the former thin model, Facebook had a distant shot at catching
Microsoft in profit, now they don't.
The anti-trust agreement Microsoft signed is part of the reason for that
massive boom in prosperity. In pushing for anti-trust action, Silicon Valley
did Microsoft a huge favor. It forced Microsoft to be aggressive about looking
for other ways to make money that weren't locked to their Windows monopoly
position. If that hadn't happened, the odds were drastically higher than
Microsoft would have rotted away over time, stuck permanently on Windows and
following its erosion of prominence. In the future, Microsoft will make as
much money just off of Azure Linux-based services as they do Windows in total.
Also, conveniently, Microsoft is the only tech giant not being pursued for
anti-trust right now. They have a wide open field to expand into. Karma is a
bitch, Silicon Valley; you helped create something in Redmond that is far more
powerful than Microsoft circa 1998, and while it grows unencumbered, your tech
giants are all going to be tied down by the government, with every move and
acquisition closely scrutinized.
~~~
nodamage
> The anti-trust agreement Microsoft signed is part of the reason for that
> massive boom in prosperity.
This history doesn't sound right to me. Microsoft languished for a decade
after that agreement, completely missing out on the mobile revolution in the
process. Their resurgence seems to have mostly occurred in the past 5-6 years
(since Nadella took over), so it seems kind of odd to credit an anti-trust
agreement signed 15 years prior.
~~~
nickfromseattle
Balmer launched Office 365 and Azure, which are two of their biggest product
lines today.
------
noizejoy
And sometimes I wonder, if that PR problem from so long ago eventually gave
birth to current conspiracy theories linked to Bill Gates.
Or maybe I’ve read too much Douglas Adams...
~~~
person_of_color
Zuckerberg and Gates think you can go from cutthroat business executive to
kindly old sweater-wearing grandpa in twenty years. Average folk are smarter
than the intelligentsia often give them credit for.
~~~
colejohnson66
Do people not realize how long _20 years_ is?
------
stakkur
Bill Gates was the prototype for the amoral shitshow that is Mark Zuckerberg.
Cory Doctorow has a great thread on Twitter today about this very topic:
[https://twitter.com/doctorow/status/1304811968398729218](https://twitter.com/doctorow/status/1304811968398729218)
~~~
voxl
That twitter thread reeks of bias, I couldn't finish or take it seriously at
all. If you want to convince me of something don't go around painting people
as evil capitalist masterminds...
~~~
tingol
Do you have counter arguments to what was said in the thread or are you just
projecting your own bias? It is pretty well known what kind of shitty things
MS did to get where it is, if someone sprinkles insults on top of it on
twitter does not make it less true.
~~~
bawolff
"Shattered" the law is pretty questionable. MS (Feel like i should write M$
for /. nostalgia) had some underhanded bussiness tactics, no doubt (some of
which probably werent even illegal, just scummy), but im not sure shattered
the law is a reasonable description. That's something i would reserve more for
organized crime. Microsoft never extorted people, planted listening devices,
hired hitman, etc. The rabbit hole of crime goes down very far, microsoft did
not stoop anywhere near that far.
~~~
dencodev
The difference is that the mafia has never managed to extort and murder and
then be told they did nothing wrong by law enforcement. The mafia also never
attempted to make the law say they did nothing wrong (outside of small scale
bribery or threats). "Shattered" is more appropriate here because Microsoft
did (and does) try to get favorable legal treatment that extends outsides the
bounds of what the law intended on a national level with far reaching
implications of what others can also get away with.
------
dontbeabill
Gates claims now (and then) the Government will stifle innovation, yet when
innovation came in the form of Java, the first thing Gates did (as proven by
evidence) was to seek a way to destroy it. (because he was a man-child annoyed
because he didn’t invent it, and couldn’t find a way to compete honestly). So
he did what big bully’s do, he crushed Sun and got all his big boy friends to
help.
What a inspiration.
~~~
dependenttypes
Java was never a form of innovation.
~~~
bawolff
Java was very innovative at the time, with byte code and JIT, a more clear OO
design relative to C++, embeddable safetly sandboxed web apps, memory safety
in a "professional" language, cross platform binaries (in a non scripting
language) etc.
The mid 90's was a long time ago. What was exciting then is not exciting now.
~~~
dependenttypes
Everything that you mentioned was already available at the time in other
languages. This is not innovation.
~~~
bawolff
But to what extent was it available in a polished package?
For example, everything in rust was available in other languages, i would
still say it was innovative because it brought all that together into a
polished package that made the right tradeoffs for mainstream usage.
~~~
dependenttypes
> But to what extent was it available in a polished package?
To a large extent. Both Smalltalk and Erlang were mature at that point in
time.
> everything in rust was available in other languages
I am not doubting you but are you aware of any other language with affine
types? I am not.
------
Hickfang
Watching the video is even more revealing. Future historians will be amazed as
to how a border-line aspergers case got away with engineering a virtual
monopoly on computing.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_2m1qdqieE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_2m1qdqieE)
Groklaw has some interesting Microsoft Files:
[http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=2009122612211929](http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=2009122612211929)
~~~
american_aurora
I do not know if I would describe it as "border-line aspergers," but there
were several obvious things that his prep team/PR should have addressed (e.g.,
hair, suit, posture, lack of explicit cues for listening to question vs.
thinking about response).
I always find it infinitely surprising that these billion-dollar companies
with all their prestige are constantly making simple but serious mistakes in
every field of activity they are present in.
~~~
echelon
Who should they hire or what should they cultivate to do better?
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Why we are not afraid of Microsoft - shankarganesh
http://blog.freshdesk.com/why-we-are-not-afraid-of-microsoft/
======
nemesisj
Is there any otherwise-vanilla SaaS out there that generates more controversy
than Freshdesk (at least among the HN readership)?
Already on this article (8 comments posted as I write this) we have a FUD
comment saying their post is "smug" and their customers should be worried, and
then another talking about how you need to "be careful" about criticising the
company because their employees victimised the commenter by "down voting them
in groups".
Add to this the backdrop of ridiculous comments by Zendesk founder calling
them a ripoff, and just the general FUD espoused by almost everyone whenever
an Indian tech company is in the picture, and it's a bit sad.
We don't use Freshdesk, although we're considering moving from Zendesk to them
due to some missing features, and I'm not Indian, but I really do think it's
interesting how this company is just constantly and vaguely looked down upon
by people who should know better.
FD seem to be scrappy, they're growing quickly, their product looks good, they
give discounts to startups, and they just happen to be based in India - what's
not to like?
~~~
mcphilip
I read HN daily and this is my first encounter with Freshdesk.
>FD seem to be scrappy, they're growing quickly, their product looks good,
they give discounts to startups, and they just happen to be based in India -
what's not to like?
Regardless of the quality of their offering, I'm personally turned off by the
David vs. Goliath click bait being my introduction to the company. Maybe
that's unfair, but so it goes.
~~~
unreal37
I found it to be a great response. A competitor gets acquired, a news article
says your company will be put out of business by it, and voila! An opportunity
to rise above it.
And yes, when was the last time Microsoft put somebody out of business?
------
dictum
Microsoft didn't have to acquire anything to compete with most SaaS
businesses:
They have Excel.
Small businesses have tighter budgets, but often the owner is the person doing
certain tasks that in a big corporation would be given to interns. Because
they do the work themselves, they're more open to try new software to improve
their workflow. They're willing to pay $50 every month to be able to do
something in a more efficient or enjoyable way, even though they could pay
$500 (a fictional figure) once and buy Office or some established software to
manage some aspect of their business, but feel miserable doing it.
However, many small business owners, after researching the competition, decide
to do as the big guys are doing, and go with bloated, clunky software in hopes
of eventually becoming big too.
That's why, it seems to me, it's relatively easy to run a simple SaaS with
200-500k yearly revenue, but hard to scale it to millions.
* * *
The target audience for this post is probably Freshdesk customers, not me. If
I were a Freshdesk customer, I'd me more confident if the reasons listed were
a better customer support, better user experience, being likely to stay in
business for longer... instead, they went with "the competition is crappy and
slow to act".
~~~
girishm
"If I were a Freshdesk customer, I'd me more confident if the reasons listed
were a better customer support, better user experience, being likely to stay
in business for longer..."
Fair points, but our existing customers already know about our user experience
and customer support. And if I am going to talk about that, it is not going to
be very credible anyway as I am biased :) But a quick review of our Google
apps marketplace review will tell you that's exactly what our customers love
about us.
------
mattmanser
Dynamics CRM requires consultants to install, servers to run, etc. etc.
It's bizarre anyone would say something so colossally stupid and be so
ignorant of reality to say an add-on to an expensive and complicated CRM
system will put standalone offerings out of business unless they were a
Dynamics consultant.
Oh, Gene Marks _is_ a Dynamics consultant.
No news here, no news in the original article, it's all just advertising.
~~~
vtbassmatt
Consultants - probably. Servers - nope, not for about 6 years, since CRM
Online shipped in January 2008.
[http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=252780](http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=252780)
Your bottom-line takeaway is spot-on.
------
goldenkey
In the face of certain despair, it's humorous that Freshdesk pulls off the
"I'm so smug, come join us" pitch. If I was a Freshdesk customer, I'd be a
little worried about the political pow-wow being played. It's quite clear that
Freshdesk is looking to get acquired by Microsoft. One of the prerequisites is
to smacktack the ol' Microsoft 'legacy' and then whistle dixie.
~~~
slowdown
Also, watchout when you bad mouth them on HN, they use shady tactics to
downvote comments written against them (I was a victim once; their employees
downvoted me in groups). I don't trust this company nor their employees at all
- In fact, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that this blog post was
posted by one of their employees and the blog post is just a glorified landing
page.
"We're not scared of Microsoft, so signup right now"
~~~
pedalpete
What makes you so sure you were downvoted by freshdesk employees and not just
HNers who thought your comment was ineffective at portraying a useful point?
note: I am not nor have ever been a freshdesk employee
------
CmonDev
First sign of being not afraid is creating "I am not afraid" blog posts.
~~~
blumkvist
/s
------
gafads
The hubris in this post is on par with the classic tales of the Greek gods.
Microsoft may not sink Freshdesk, but Freshdesk may sink Freshdesk.
------
Edmond
Unless the blog post has been updated before I read it I find it difficult to
understand the hostility being expressed towards FreshDesk.
Someone wrote them off as being good as dead because a competitor was acquired
by MS, they wrote a rebuttal, what is wrong with that?
------
awicklander
I have to say, this HN thread is super confusing to me. There are plenty of
good points in this article, none of which come off as smug to me.
The fact of the matter is that the helpdesk software market is huge, and the
notion that there isn't enough room for multiple companies to succeed in it is
just wrong headed.
Very rarely, but especially with niche software, is there ever only one
winner. Usually there's lots of room for many companies to succeed.
As a happy Freshdesk customer I pretty much agree with everything written in
this post, and think they'll be just fine.
------
dasil003
It's not smugness, it's sensationalism, and it's a valid PR tactic. I think
the old saying "there's no such thing as bad publicity" applies in spades
here. Look at the controversy in this thread: some people think it's bad, some
think it's good, but the number of people with Freshdesk on the brain has
jumped by an order of magnitude—if half of them are turned off it's still a
net win.
------
brentm
Slightly off topic but what is better about Zendesk?
I've been using Freshdesk for a few years and originally chose it because the
price was so much less. To me the major benefits of Zendesk appear to be a
better mobile experience and a json api (vs Freshdesk's XML). Out of those 2
thing the XML api has been the more annoying to deal with.
It looks Zendesk may have dropped their prices a little and may be worth
reconsidering.
~~~
girishm
Freshdesk has had both XML and JSON APIs from day 1. Maybe it was not so
obvious as the documentation was done for XML and it was probably assumed that
since it is exactly similar for json it was not required. Thanks for the
feedback. We will fix the docs.
~~~
xtracto
Hey, a bit late to the thread but I wanted to ask a question about your
service (I couldn't find a "send private message" button in HN):
My company is evaluating several Helpdesk systems (both SaaS and Open Source).
FreshDesk is one of those we have in mind. However I would like to know how
possible is it to "tweak" Freshdesk to meet our needs.
For example, being able to add HTML elements (forms) or "dashboards" made by
us would be a plus. Also, how "mature" are your APIs? (i.e. what % of the
functionality can be accessed via API?).
Basically, we need to use a HelpDesk/Ticketing/CRM system, but must tailor it
to our business need which is more on the financial side of things (we are
looking to make the HelpDesk system our one-stop-panel for managing).
is there anyone @ your company I can contact to discuss this more in private?
Thanks a lot!
~~~
saurabh_p
Hi,
Thanks for your interest in Freshdesk. If you can email me:
[email protected], I will be glad to get on a call, understand your
requirements and take the discussion further.
Best Regards, Saurabh Prabhuzantye
------
radmuzom
Such kind of blog posts are best written a year or two, where you have
evidence that Microsoft will not be able to kill your business. In fact, I
hope it happens and wish you all the best that your business grows and
thrives.
Otherwise, no one really cares whether you are afraid of Microsoft or not.
------
jagermo
I'm always wondering why journalists "kill" everything. There is room for more
than one player - in nearly every market.
------
wudf
I see now why the moderation on hn prefers titles that match the original
article.
------
mehwoot
So brave of them.
------
tosseraccount
Nobody is anymore.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Concurrent Pascal-S - elvis70
http://pascal.hansotten.com/niklaus-wirth/pascal-s/pascal-s-copascal/
======
peter_d_sherman
>"Moti Ben-Ari has built on Pascal-S in his Principles of Concurrent
Programming, resulting in Concurrent Pascal-S.
Compared to Wirth’s version of Pascal-S, case statement, records and reals are
swiped from this edition of Pascal-S. M. Ben-Ari modified Wirth’s original
compiler/interpreter in 1980 to include some basic features that were able to
simulate concurrent programming.
First, a cobegin s1; …; sn coend block structure was added, allowing
concurrent execution of the statements s1 … sn, which were required to be
global procedure calls. These cobegin … coend blocks could not be nested
within one another."
------
082349872349872
See also Per Brinch Hansen's concurrent pascals.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Since Devs change jobs every few years now: 401k or Roth? - piratebroadcast
my work is trying to get me to join their program but who knows how long Ill be there. Im old enough that its time do do <i>something</i> but not sure whats the best for the developer lifestyle.
======
Jtsummers
401ks can be rolled over to IRAs. They can also (often? always?) be rolled
over to another 401k when you change jobs.
If you get matching, contribute _at least_ that much to your 401k. Then max
out your IRA (greater freedom in investing). Then work on maxing out your
401k.
Many people point to the tax-free nature of these. Traditional 401k and
Traditional IRA means you don't pay taxes now, but are taxed on the
distributions in retirement (treated as income, not capital gains). Roth
versions of both mean you pay taxes now on the contributions, but not in
retirement on the distributions.
The (to me) much greater benefit of all four options is _tax free growth_. My
Roth IRA is a standard brokerage account. Let's go through a scenario, two
ways: invest in a standard brokerage, invest in any kind of 401k or IRA.
If you invest $10k in a standard brokerage, wait some time, and sell at $15k
for a profit of $5k, you owe taxes (income if less than a year, capital gains
if more than a year). Let's assume capital gains (15%), you only have $14,250
to reinvest ($750 paid in taxes). Every time you sell you lose a bit of your
profit.
If you invest that same $10k in an IRA or 401k, make the same profit in the
same time and sell (in the 401k you don't sell, but rather move to a different
fund, concept is the same), you owe no taxes at that point. You have the full
$15k to reinvest.
Losing 15% (or more if it's a short term investment) of all earnings seriously
eats away at your retirement savings if the money is in a standard brokerage.
Similarly, you lose some percentage of all dividends earned in a standard
brokerage. So your 1-4% dividend yield is really more like .75-3% after taxes.
All things being equal, your money will grow faster in a 401k or IRA. If the
intention is to leave the money alone (not spend it, but probably tweak
investments) until age 60 or higher, invest in these accounts.
~~~
scarface74
_They can also (often? always?) be rolled over to another 401k when you change
jobs_
I can think of no good reason to ever roll a 401K to another employer instead
of rolling it over to a usually much lower cost IRA.
~~~
SaberTail
I can think of one common situation for typical HN readers. If you make too
much money to contribute to a Roth IRA, and your workplace offers a 401k
(which means traditional IRA contributions will not be deductible), then you
can still put money into a Roth IRA by contributing after-tax dollars to a
traditional IRA and doing a backdoor Roth conversion[1].
The problem is that when you do one, you pay taxes pro rata on any pre-tax
funds in your IRA. If your 401k is pre-tax dollars (most are), then if you
convert a 401k to an IRA, you will start having to pay taxes every time you
try to do a backdoor Roth.
[1][http://www.rothira.com/what-is-a-backdoor-roth-
ira](http://www.rothira.com/what-is-a-backdoor-roth-ira)
------
codegeek
It's a no-brainer really. Start the 401K asap. It will only help you. Roth is
good as an additional option but regular 401K has lot of benefits including
higher contribution amounts, employer matching benefit (if any) and why pay a
higher tax now than when you will retire since your tax rate will most likely
be lower in retirement. By contributing to a 401K, you reduce your taxable
income for the year as well as an added benefit.
Max out the 401K first before you think of anything else. Who cares if you
change jobs frequently. You can always do a roll over into an IRA with
providers such as Fidelity or Vanguard for free.
~~~
Someone1234
This is great advice.
Just want to tack on for the OP (or anyone else): Look at the fees. The fees
will destroy your retirement. Both the individual fund fees and the account
management fees.
For example on my 401K provider they have funds with fees ranging from 0.19%
(index fund) up to 0.58% (fully managed fund). You'd think that the fully
managed funds outperform the index funds which makes the fees worthwhile, but
actually the reverse is true (that the index funds have outperformed the
managed funds historically).
If you don't manually select which funds to invest in they put a lot of your
money into the more expensive funds.
~~~
codegeek
Yep another great point. There was another thread about funds question
yesterday and I said the same thing. Almost all "managed" funds offered in
retirement plans don't even beat S&P 500. So you are probably better off
putting most of the contribution in an index fund and just enjoy the "meager"
S&P 500 returns. The expense ratio etc. are so much lower for these index
funds.
------
ksherlock
With a 401k, you can contribute up to 18,000 and your employer might match
some amount. That number reduces your current taxable incoming (you pay tax
when you withdraw). It really don't matter how long you're there or how often
you switch jobs because it's your money and you can move it around when you
change jobs.
With a Roth IRA, you can contribute up to $5,500 (depending on your income --
it phases out from $118,000 -- 133,000). You might be too rich to make use of
it. You're taxed on that money now but not when you withdraw.
Indecisive? do both.
You still have another month to contribute to your 2016 Roth IRA, so if you
have the money available, you should do that. (And if you don't have available
money, you should probably just stick to a 401k since it's automatically
withdrawn from your paycheck).
~~~
kspaans
Yup, the employer-matched contributions are free money! You should absolutely
take as much of those as you can. You'll always have access to the 401k
account even if you leave the company. It doesn't matter a whole lot if your
investments are spread across a bunch of different 401k providers/accounts.
~~~
kasey_junk
You should almost always roll your 401k into an ira soon after leaving your
employer.
If your employer goes out of business it can be difficult (read involves the
dept of labor) to get access to your money.
------
slg
Your priority should be to contribute to your 401k up to the max company
match, Roth/IRA up to federal limit (the choice between the two depends on age
and income), then finally 401k up the the limit you are comfortable.
The reasoning for this order is that any company match is free money that you
are leaving the table if you don't contribute. However, many 401ks have
limited investment options, restrict you to a particular bank, and involve
added paperwork when moving jobs. That is why Roth/IRAs come next. However,
those have fairly low limits at $5,500 per year. Therefore if you are planning
to save more you should take advantage of the tax breaks of a 401k before
investing retirement savings in a traditional brokerage account.
------
jrs235
Is a Roth 401k an option through your employer? With a Roth 401k you pay post-
tax so you won't reduce you're taxable income but it will grow and be tax free
when you pull it in retirement. It also allows you to contribute up to $17,500
per year, $12,000 more than a regular Roth IRA.
Edit:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roth_401(k)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roth_401\(k\))
Edit 2: With my employer, I can elect my contributions to go into a Roth 401k
instead of the regular 401k. They still do a company match, however their
funds I believe have to go into the 401k plan and they need to do some extra
math to determine the correct match amount due to how taxes affect the
amounts.
Edit 3: Because most HNer's have high incomes, it might make more sense to
contribute to a regular 401k and reduce your taxable income today. If you plan
on saving lots of money and remaining in the same or going up in tax bracket
in the future then Roth 401k might make more sense. The question is, do you
think, generally, taxes and tax brackets will go up, down, or stay the same
and how much money do you plan or hope to withdraw from your accounts in
retirement?
Edit 4: I split my and my employer contributions about 50/50 between regular
401k and Roth 401k.
------
praneshp
I like this flowchart [0] I got from r/personalfinance. That subreddit is a
little different from my taste but this is useful. If you are a typical older
Silicon Valley dev (sorry for presuming any part of that), you might not be
eligible for a Roth (without some extra work), so be careful. If you didn't
contribute to an IRA in 2016, you can still do so.
And like the others said, if you have an employer match, definitely max that
part out.
[0] [https://i.imgur.com/1rPEkGQ.png](https://i.imgur.com/1rPEkGQ.png)
~~~
mdeeks
Is there an automated version of this somewhere? I'd love to be able to plug
in my numbers (age, income, expenses, etc) and have recommendations pop out.
------
garethsprice
[https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/29031758/If%20You%20Can....](https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/29031758/If%20You%20Can.pdf)
<\- this is a good read on the basics. A target date or low cost index fund
with automatic deductions is a good "fire and forget" strategy. Once you
leave, you can roll it over into your own 401k.
Echoing other comments - at a bare minimum max out your employer match, it's
free money!
~~~
cpete
Yes, thanks for sharing. "If You Can: How Millennials Can Get Rich Slowly" is
a great primer. The author also provides the names of several other books to
read and the order in which to read them. I've learned a lot following his
plan.
------
rajathagasthya
Some great answers here. As a financial noob and only 2 years into his career,
I have a question about Roth vs Traditional for software engineers. Why would
you choose traditional IRA when you expect software engineer salaries to
mostly go up while you advance in your career? I understand Roth IRA has
limited contribution, but what is a good alternative? I see a lot of articles
about this topic on the internet, but I don't see specific advice for folks in
the tech industry.
~~~
Jtsummers
It can be beneficial early on for the tax advantage to increase your net
income for the year, but you'll probably want the Roth later. Also, look into
the Saver's Credit. If your AGI (adjusted gross income) is low enough (easier
if married), you get a percentage of your retirement savings back as a tax
_credit_. Traditional IRA and 401(k) accounts reduce your AGI and make hitting
this mark easier, and increase the tax credit you'll receive.
I did some back-of-the-envelope calculations yesterday. As a single adult
(non-dependent), if you were to max a Traditional IRA, Traditional 401(k), you
could make up to around $70-75k in gross income, and still be able to qualify
for the Saver's Credit. Your AGI after contributions, standard deduction,
personal exemption, and deductions for things like medical insurance premiums,
could reduce your total income to $37k or lower. You'd then get 10% of your
contributions, up to $2000, back as a credit. At ~$37k AGI, your tax burden is
approximately $5k, with the credit, it's approximately $3k (numbers crunched
on excel on another computer, these are estimates from memory).
If you're married the max AGI to qualify for 2017 is $62k. Looking at my tax
forms from early on in my mid career, I definitely could've swung that if I'd
been married and sometimes did (but wasn't married so no credit), and at the
start of my career I could have hit that $37k AGI by making additional
retirement contributions, had I known about it.
~~~
rajathagasthya
Thank you! Learnt a lot from your other comment too. :)
------
mywittyname
Setup the 401k. When you leave, go to Vanguard, set up an account with them
and have your 401k rolled over into your Vanguard account.
From here on out, every time you change jobs, request a 401k rollover into
your Vanguard IRA. This way, you'll only ever have two retirement accounts to
deal with, rather than one for each job.
~~~
jrs235
>This way, you'll only ever have two retirement accounts to deal with, rather
than one for each job.
And due to how most accounts have a flat [annual] fee, you'll likely pay less
in fees.
------
berberous
The comments here are all good, but nothing about this question is specific to
developers. For those who have personal finance questions, I would highly
recommend the Boggleheads wiki and forum:
[https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Main_Page](https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Main_Page)
[https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/index.php](https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/index.php)
It's filled with the type of thoughtful, over-analytical people that I think
the readership of Hacker News would appreciate.
------
galdosdi
Switching jobs has NOTHING to do with this. (IANAL so maybe there's strange
cases I'm unaware of but...) You can always rollover to a new account, so when
you quit your job, you take your savings with you and can move them into an
account with any broker anywhere.
Start immediately! At the very least, max out the "match" as that is free
money. Look into all the details and conditions of the program.
Your instincts to get this figured out ASAP now are spot on.
~~~
rakmial
This is only half true. 401k matching typically takes time to vest, and you
don't have the same amount of personal control over a 401k. Also, particularly
in tech, if you move from a larger company with 401k to a small company with
no benefits plan in place, you're not going to be able to roll the 401k stuff
into your IRA. Obviously it won't just disappear, but you'll have just leave
it in your previous employer's care.
~~~
galdosdi
I almost mentioned vesting, but decided to summarize as
> Look into all the details and conditions of the program.
Either way, you're not _losing_ money, even if there's a delay in getting the
match.
And IANAL and don't feel like looking it up but IIRC from last time I did it,
I thought it was near universal, or legally required even, to be allowed to
rollover any 401k into an IRA once you are no longer employed. Do you have a
source or personal details on that? This is a major point.
The important thing is nobody with access to a 401k should delay looking into
it by more than a pay period, as they are likely throwing away free money
every pay period that goes by and they don't even look into the details.
------
HeyLaughingBoy
One benefit I haven't seen mentioned is that you can often borrow against a
401k and I don't believe that's as common (impossible?) with an IRA. The
benefit of borrowing against your 401k is that the interest goes back into
your account. The downside is that you have a maximum of five years to repay
it, and of course you're repaying it with after-tax dollars. Unlike a
withdrawal, it's penalty-free.
~~~
rakmial
Roth IRAs can be borrowed against for qualified expenses, like buying a home
or paying for sudden, large medical expenses. There are a bunch of other,
rarer cases too.
------
heavymark
Definitely 401k especially if they offer any sort of matching. Roth's are a
good additional option, especially if you just starting out in a low tax break
and expect to eventually be in a higher tax bracket as you advance through
your career. Roths however have a relatively low limit so many of us cannot
use them once we reach a certainly income level in the 100ks.
------
gsuppy
Not to completely hijack this thread, but is it expected for devs to change
jobs often? Are you a washed out has-been if you've stayed at your current
firm for more than a couple years??
~~~
scarface74
In my experience - most of the time - yes.
I have found the arc of a job to be:
1\. I accept an offer I like based on the environment, the pay, and the
ability to learn new things.
2\. During the first year or two, I'm learning new things about the company,
the industry, the software they are using, and a technology that I've been
wanting to learn.
3\. Usually as I'm learning my market value is out of sync with the menial
raises I'm getting, the company doesn't see a need to keep up to date and the
technology becomes out of date, so the world is leaving me behind.
4\. I start looking at job opportunities, see what I need to learn to be
competitive and start preparing for my next job. This is ususlly a 3-6 month
process.
5\. I start calling recruiters and move to my next job, making significant
more and start over at step 1 until you are at the top of your pay for your
market without having to be promoted above what you like doing.
This usual happens within 2-3 years. I might stick around for 3 just to get
completed vested.
------
compsciphd
So first things. Just like there are traditional and Roth IRAs. there are
traditional and roth 401ks. Same standards apply, traditional 401ks are pre-
tax and you pay income tax on withdrawals, roth 401ks are post tax and you
wont pay tax on withdrawals.
Traditional 401ks can easily be rolled over into traditional 401k (but you
most likely wont want to do this, as I'll get to later) and Roth 401k's can
easily be rolled over into Roth IRAs (no harm in this unless the 401k
custodian has some really good funds available to you).
An important thing to understand about a traditional vs roth calculation is
that when you put money into a traditional 401k/IRA you save at your marginal
rate (vs putting the same money into a Roth). i.e. if your federal rate is 28%
and your state rate is around 10% (say you live in NYC or CA), you save 38%.
In retirement, while you would be paying taxes on the withdrawal, the taxes
will be spread through every bracket, not just your highest hence its very
likely that its going to be less than 38% in total taxes even if tax rates go
up in the future. Further, you can have a significant level of control over
your future taxes as can move to a state that has no taxes in retirement, a
flexibility that you might not have during employment.
If you're single and make over 133K you are ineligible for the Roth in a
normal manner. There's a good chance as a software engineer you'll reach this
level at some point. This is where the "back door" roth contribution comes in
and why I would reccomend not rolling over a traditional 401k into an IRA
There is no income limit on contributing to a traditional IRA (though there
are limits to the "pre-tax benefit", but that and there's no income limit to
convert a traditional IRA into a Roth, you just have to pay taxes on what you
haven't paid taxes on already (i.e. either the pre-tax benefit you got or the
growth since you put it in). This is a free way for those with higher incomes
to gain the benefits of roth contributions (especially as those who are
ineligible to contribute to a Roth are already paying taxes on their
traditional contribution. But this also goes to why you probably don't want to
convert your traditional 401k into a traditional IRA at a later date. It will
prevent you from benefiting from this backdoor contribution mechanism.
So with this said, for me, my 401K is traditional and my main IRA is roth. I
keep one traditional IRA opened to do the backdoor, but as soon as the
contribution clears it is immediately converted into my roth.
This is a lot to take in and its good that you are thinking about these things
today.
------
cornellouis
First thing I want to say is that it's very easy for technical people to frame
this as a technical issue rather than an emotional issue. The evidence is
overwhelming that wealth building is an emotional issue. So if you're not
paying attention to that side of the equation, all this tax stuff really
doesn't matter. I'll get back to this later and explain the four account types
now.
Employer: Traditional 401k (pre tax), Roth 401k (after tax)
Personal: Traditional IRA (pre tax), Roth IRA (after tax)
These are tax designations, not investment types.
Roth means after tax dollars (more money up front). Traditional is pre tax
dollars (you get pay more later). Both _grow_ tax free, but with the
traditional withdrawals count as income so they are taxed according to that
tax year.
401k has a contribution limit is $18k / year. IRA has a contribution limit of
$5500 / year.
$23.5k / year total right now for somebody under 55.
If you make enough / spend little enough that you can put the maximum dollars
under the shelter, my suggestion is to go Roth 401k and Roth IRA or backdoor
IRA. Over a 30 year period, the additional dollars under Roth will make up for
most tax percentage differences, so it's a decent bet. Roth is the best way to
max dollars under the tax shelter, and the tax shelter is hugely profitable.
Also, if you go Roth, your retirement balance will be the real balance, not
some fake number that is still subject to unknown future taxation.
If you can't max the dollars, then it doesn't matter as much if you pick Roth
or Traditional. Yes, you have to make a call about what tax rates will be now
vs. in the future, but how much money you put into the account and if you stay
steady with low cost investments will matter more. So I wouldn't focus on the
tax issue. I'd focus on how you earn enough / spend less to be able to max
both contributions so that the tax issue matters less than the opportunity
cost of having investments outside the tax shelter.
If your employer doesn't offer a retirement plan, you can usually write off a
traditional IRA contribution on your taxes. However, I'd recommend you do a
Roth IRA instead or avoid this writeoff so that you can do the back door roth
mentioned in the next paragraph.
If you make too much for a Roth IRA, you can do a back door roth ira.
Get a tax guy for this. It can get complicated the IRS is a headache. It's
worth it to pay for a tax guy.
Do this by funding a traditional IRA then converting it to a roth IRA. The
conversion has no income limit - that's why this is legally possible. This
gets more complicated if you have traditional IRA money, because they don't
let you pick which dollars you're converting. The cleanest way is to convert
all of the money at once, but you will have a big tax bill if you do this, so
you need the cash saved up OUTSIDE the account. If you pay the taxes with
money from the account, there's no point doing it. When you convert it, it's
counted as income -- you have to pay the taxes at your current tax rate, and
that may bump you into a higher tax bracket, so you might not want to convert
it all at once to avoid those higher taxes. If you know you're going to live
in a lower tax state soon, it is probably wise to wait until you fall under
the tax laws of that state to do the conversion... but remember ,this is most
valuable while you're young, so when I say wait, I mean 2 years, not 20. It
can be a hairy calculation. The taxes you pay are, in effect, shoving more
money under the tax free growth umbrella.
Most 401ks offer mediocre to bad investment options. This sucks, but
contribute anyway b/c the tax shelter is fabulous, and later you'll roll the
money over into an IRA where you can pick good stuff. I suggest go an indexing
route like Betterment.
Allright, so those are the tax mechanics. But they don't matter if you don't
actually save the money, and saving the money is highly dependent on your
emotions and habits.
\- Do you have habits that are coping mechanism connected to spending? \- Are
you surrounded by people in BMWs who make you feel poor? \- Do you regularly
read about investing and spend time planning your investing? \- Do you have a
plan for career advancement? \- Do you have mentors for career advancement? \-
Do you keep a monthly budget and check your spending against your plans? \- Do
you know your retirement date?
I'm asking all these things because they are more important than the
(theoretical) mechanics of the money. Engineers love to believe a spreadsheet
showing how their 30 year 4% mortgage is hedged well against their predicted
8% portfolio to make them an extra $150k over 30 years, but the truth is that
Americans suck at saving and generally don't save, so the hedge never happens
and the spreadsheet was a waste of time. Also, maintaining the mortgage can
put enough pressure on someone that they keep the paycheck instead of starting
a business, so he earned a fraction of what he would have if he'd tried a
startup. The decision to lower financial risk to start a company has a hard-
to-calculate gain. We tend to avoid it and instead focus on things we can
calculate.
If you spend some time reading about personal finance and psych, you can learn
how to be a happier person while spending less, and this will matter more for
your retirement than 401k vs. IRA and Traditional vs Roth.
I recommend you invest some time and money in some good books / audio books.
They will pay themselves back 1000X, literally.
1\. Dave Ramsey's Total Money Makeover 2\. The Millionaire Nextdoor (and the
Millionaire Mind sometime later) 3\. The Little Book of Common Sense Investing
4\. [http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/](http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/) 5\.
[http://earlyretirementextreme.com/](http://earlyretirementextreme.com/) 6\.
Predictably Irrational 7\. The Power of Habit
Of course, tax sheltered retirement accounts aren't the only option planning
for the future. But they are a decent insurance plan. As you read more about
personal finance, you'll see some of the other options for your savings
(education, business), and you'll have to make a call about how you want to
spread your risk. good luck.
------
crispytx
Just contribute however much the company is willing to match.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Why Apple Doesn't Trust Developers - redial
http://statictext.tumblr.com/post/3676219047/trust
======
stcredzero
I have karma to burn, so here it goes with another hard truth:
There is a big, undeniable, compelling reason for Apple to distrust us iOS
developers: as a whole we're incompetent bumblers. I'm talking about security.
The number of iOS developers who do things like transmit the UDID (Universal
Device ID) in plaintext, or who "encrypt" their communications by doing things
like zipping it (no encryption, or the same key for every client) then
"securely authenticate" it with CRC32 is just jaw-dropping. In terms of doing
things with just a competent level of security, large numbers of us are
screwing the pooch in ways that severely contaminate the pool for the rest of
us.
Of course, this points to the ultimate incompetent bumbler in this regard:
Apple. Apple should've built a better security library -- one which makes it
harder to use security in an incompetent way. (Forces you to do security
right, or the API doesn't work at all.) For heaven's sakes, they require you
to muck with 3 objects just to shift a date from one month to the same day-
number the next month. Some better support in security might benefit the iOS
developer community just a bit more than the ability for our apps to work
smoothly in both Julian and Gregorian calendars.
I plan on making my living through iOS in the next year, but Google seems to
be way ahead of Apple with regards to security.
------
trotsky
_But I also think there is more to it than that. Apple needed to provide those
services in order to highlight the devices they were selling, because specs
alone don’t sell. [...] And you can’t trust third party developers to do it
for you._
It all sounds pretty reasonable until you remember that the 30% tax is more or
less aimed directly at removing Amazon ebooks from the platform, and that the
kindle app was available well before iBooks.
~~~
hello_moto
What if certain companies made a pact of increasing their services/goods cost
by some percentage (let's say 15%-30%) and call it "the iPhone tax".
Make a beautiful logo out of it, constantly reminding people that the price
increase is due to Apple.
... and at the same time offer a clue that they can get the same
services/goods cheaper on another platform (say... Android).
Would that help to drive users to understand how bad Apple is and hopefully
start a public uproar?
Perception right?
~~~
trotsky
Apple's service agreement actually demands price matching, which means a
content provider must provide their best price available through the app. It
is probably possible to charge more for an "iOS edition", but Amazon
specifically has a standard publisher contract that requires them to charge
the same price on all platforms.
~~~
alxp
Which is a sensible clause for Apple, so that Amazon can't go and say "all
books bought on the Kindle device are 50% off what you pay when you buy the
book on the Kindle for iPad app" to drive device sales.
~~~
trotsky
You have it a bit backwards, the kindle is there to drive ebook sales, not the
reverse. Apple only added the clause when they added the mandatory in app
sales with the 30% tax - if amazon had any intention of doing something like
that you'd presumably already have seen that behavior on the iphone or pc or
osx or android.
------
greattypo
I think "Trust" is used in a weird context here.. "Why Apple Doesn't Rely on
Developers" might be a more accurate title.
He's saying that Apple doesn't sit around waiting for developers to create
compelling apps for their products, not that developers are "untrustworthy."
To me those have different connotations.
~~~
neutronicus
I think "trust" is actually the perfect word.
Apple seems determined to avoid depending on Photoshop and Final Cut Pro to
sell hardware, to the point of curbing software offerings that _might_ become
_the reason_ to own an Apple device.
They don't simply believe that "you can't count on third-party software to
sell your device." They believe "if you let third-party software sell your
device, you have made a deal with the devil that you will regret."
------
MoreMoschops
"The iPod started the digital revolution"
I suppose next you'll be telling me Apple invented the helicopter, and next
week will be increasing the chocolate ration.
~~~
recoiledsnake
And according to Gruber, the iOS ecosystem is the biggest and most important
thing in the history of the industry.
It as if, when it comes to Apple, some people completely lose their
perspective.
~~~
rbarooah
Right because in 10 years time when we're all using Android tablets that will
be because the Xoom and the Galaxy Tab started it all.
------
thurn
Not trusting developers is kind of a problematic approach when your platform's
key strategic asset is a vast library of third party applications. Apple's own
iOS software is great, but the playing field for Android and Windows Phone 7
seems a lot more level without developers on Apple's side.
~~~
forensic
>Not trusting developers is kind of a problematic approach when your
platform's key strategic asset is a vast library of third party applications.
I still don't think that's true. The key strategic asset is the unbeatable
user experience and the core functionality - web browsing, movie watching,
book reading, maps, stuff that comes built in.
A very large number of iPad users have never downloaded an app. Same for
iPhone users. They find the core functionality to be sufficient for their
needs. And they would be unhappy with ANY Android device because the user
experience is sub par.
~~~
cubicle67
_A very large number of iPad users have never downloaded an app. Same for
iPhone users._
er, I'm going to need some sort of citation on that as it's pretty much the
exact opposite of what I've seen
~~~
dwynings
9% of iPad users haven't downloaded an app.
[http://blog.nielsen.com/nielsenwire/online_mobile/connected-...](http://blog.nielsen.com/nielsenwire/online_mobile/connected-
devices-does-the-ipad-change-everything)
~~~
trotsky
Seems possible a fair amount of that 9% simply aren't using it.
------
DjDarkman
The article exaggerates a lot. Denying users to have a browser other than
Safari does not make iOS a better platform. Safari(and other similar apps) is
not the best there is, the there ever was and the best there ever will be.
Someone may create a way better browser then Safari at any time.
There is something we call competition in a free market. Example: when only IE
was relevant, Microsoft couldn't care less about making IE better, but when
things started to heat up, Microsoft took up the challenge and made IE a lot
better.
Apple shipping a default browser and whatnot is good, but not letting
developers compete with them is terrible.
Here is an example when Apple was forced to relax it's restrictions:
<http://my.opera.com/community/countup/>
------
benatkin
This is a new blog. I think it must be a play on <http://statichtml.com/>
which got on HN a day or two ago.
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2289610>
------
kkowalczyk
The article provides no evidence to support the conclusion that it's about
Job's or Apple's trust of developers. It just recounts some history and then
jumps to disjointed conclusion.
In fact, it has nothing to do with trust. I can predict with 100% certainty
that developers will flock to popular platforms and mostly stay away from
failed platforms.
In the platform business Jobs had failures (NeXT, Macintosh classic) and
successes (Apple II, iPhone, iPad). His successful platforms had no problems
attracting developers, his failed platforms less so.
The trust relation actually goes in the other direction: it's important that
the developers trust the platform maker.
Platform providers have a symbiotic relation with their developers which
creates a positive feedback loop: successful platform attracts developers
which make useful programs which makes the platform even more successful etc.
At the same time platform providers invariably compete with developers on
their platform. Nintendo competes with other game companies writing games for
their consoles, Microsoft competes with some companies writing software for
Windows and Apple competes with other companies writing software for Mac or
iOS.
To me the core of the issue is: how fair is the game. Platform provider will
always have technical and marketing advantage over independent developers.
Nintendo programmers probably know the hardware the best and Nintendo can
cross-promote their games with their console. At the same time we know it's
not enough to win: there are games that, at a given time, sell better than
Nintendo's games. Microsoft Money couldn't beat Quicken and the Windows
software market is so huge that Microsoft is not even playing in most
categories.
Apple did set up the game to be unfair and they are fully taking advantage of
that to maximize profit.
As such, they've broken my trust and trust of many developers.
First, unlike Android or Microsoft, they set themselves up as a final arbiter
of what kind of software is even allowed to run on iOS. When Microsoft was
competing with Netscape, they actually had to write a better browser for
Windows. Due to Apple rules (no interpreters allowed => no JavaScript allowed)
you can't even write a competing browser for iOS which is why there's no
FireFox for iOS or Chrome for iOS.
When they didn't like Google Voice app, they just banned from iOS (despite it
not even violating any official rules). It allegedly took government (FCC)
investigation to get it enabled.
But that wasn't enough: the new in-app payment rules target companies that
have much bigger and comprehensive businesses that just writing iOS apps.
Apple wants to interject themselves between any service that offers some kind
of paid service and users using iOS devices and collect chunk of the revenue
despite the fact that for many such businesses 30% is economically impossible.
Those are major violations of developer's trust on the part of Apple. I for
one will not write a single line of iOS code as long as there is a viable
alternative like Android.
Breaking developers' trust isn't enough to break the platform. If the platform
is successful enough, most developers will just swallow the bitter pill.
However, if there's one thing that doesn't change it's this: things change.
Apple is on top of the world right now but Android is gaining momentum.
Apple's greed is a dangerous game: if the Android momentum continues, it'll be
much easier for developers to walk away from Apple's platform into a welcoming
embrace of Google.
~~~
cletus
> The article provides no evidence to support the conclusion...
+1
I also agree that success of the platform was the driving factor in attracting
developers. In fact I think some pundits put way too much weight in the
argument about attracting developers. If people use it, they will come.
> they set themselves up as a final arbiter of what kind of software is even
> allowed to run on iOS
Personally I think this policy is part of the successful formula. The ugly
truth is this is the right decision fr most people. Building trust in the
platform by the users is FAR more important than the philosophical objections
by a few developers and users.
As for competing browsers it's a little more complicated than that:
[http://www.zdnet.com/blog/hardware/will-firefox-mobile-
ever-...](http://www.zdnet.com/blog/hardware/will-firefox-mobile-ever-be-
released-for-ios-devices-no-blame-apple/10770)
I'm not sure than stance is still correct either.
Technically Google Voice wasn't banned either. It was just held in limbo with
no decision. The end result is basically the same however.
I for one am waiting to see what happens with the Kindle. I think it's now so
influential that Apple would be idiots to kick it off. If they don't it'll
lead to confusion about their policy. If they do it'll be the first
competitive advantage Android tablets will have (IMHO).
Lastly when it comes to App Store rejection, in spite of Apple's nebulous
rules it really is a case of "you'll know it when you see it" 99% of the time
(if not more).
There seems to be a trend for some people to create apps that were never going
to get rejected, submit them, get rejected and then immediately come to places
like this to complain about how they've been victimized, which of course gets
a certain level of support from the Apple haters irrespective of the merits.
It's almost like the blog post complaining about rejection is written before
the app is submitted.
------
zdw
Well, if you need examples, look at Android, which has frequent malware
scares:
[http://www.androidpolice.com/2011/03/01/the-mother-of-all-
an...](http://www.androidpolice.com/2011/03/01/the-mother-of-all-android-
malware-has-arrived-stolen-apps-released-to-the-market-that-root-your-phone-
steal-your-data-and-open-backdoor/)
(not a slam on Android, but just the natural progression - if you allow
anything, someone, somewhere will abuse the privilege)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Asshole Driven Development - sidcool
http://scottberkun.com/2007/asshole-driven-development/
======
staticfish
There seems to have been an influx of these sort of posts on HN recently.
To be honest, engineers are just people. A wide sample of folks from different
backgrounds, cultures, ethnicities, educational-backgrounds, etc etc.
This wildcard lumping of people into various categories has got to stop. It's
ridiculous to say the least, and really does the profession harm when you
separate the engineer from the _individual_ in question.
People are different.
~~~
xd
I find it interesting that; "He worked at Microsoft from 1994 to 2003, mostly
on Internet Explorer 1.0 to 5.0 (not 6)" ...
~~~
rachelbythebay
That sure makes it sound like IE6 was a pariah project. It's the sort of thing
that makes people go out of their way to say "I had no part in the making of
that monster".
Hmm. More Bozo Loop material.
~~~
jackfoxy
_Pariah project_? People forget IE6 <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IE6> was
released in 2000 freaking one, for Christ's sake. It was state of the art for
years. Sure it started becoming a pain in the ass to developers years later,
but it's only a pariah project with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight and years
of continued engineering development.
~~~
brazzy
Yeah, but it became SUCH a pain in the ass later on that it's entirely
understandable that people would later on not want to be associated with it.
------
wglb
The article missed CADT: <http://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html>
~~~
greenyoda
That's a great article, thanks!
"...and the new maintainer can't be bothered to check whether his new version
has actually solved any of the known problems that existed in the previous
version"
It's even worse than that:
\- The new version might have new bugs that the old version didn't have.
\- The new version might not have all the features you've come to depend on in
the old version.
\- The new version might have APIs or syntax that are not compatible with the
old version.
~~~
JoeAltmaier
I like to say "Rewrote it? So now its bigger, slower and more expensive!"
------
FuzzyDunlop
There should be a name for these types of articles: Pigeonhole Driven
Discussion.
------
realrocker
Where is Know-it-All Driven Development? Oh wait.
------
alexwolfe
You just need to find another job. Those don't sound like forms of
development, just unprofessional people making bad decisions. Good luck.
------
Shenglong
CYAE has been a dominant force in government for years now.
------
level09
We implement ADD, CDD, CYAE extensively in our company ..
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
When Women Stopped Coding (2014) - bootload
http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/10/21/357629765/when-women-stopped-coding
======
dang
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8489788](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8489788)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
My brother passed away at the age of 23 because of a design choice - jbenz
https://the-pastry-box-project.net/kevin-miller/2014-february-24
======
lutusp
> he knew that gaming carried with it a risk; but that risk was _exasperated_
> [sic] by someone wanting a strobe effect here or a flashing explosion there.
No, not exasperated, but extended or increased.
~~~
timdiggerm
exacerbated, perhaps?
~~~
lutusp
That's the word I was searching for. :)
------
dcaunt
Perhaps an interesting discussion is whether games should provide options to
disable features that might be dangerous.
~~~
erid
Absolutely, giving users an option to reduce effects or at least bright
blinking lights would be a good idea. In the context of games I guess they
don't think of blind or even color blind people, but taking into account
epileptics may save some lives.
~~~
agersant
More and more games feature color blind modes. I know some of the most played
games of the moment have it: League of Legends, Battlefield 4, Call of Duty:
Ghosts.
~~~
erid
That's good to know, I went ahead to mention color blind out of an assumption
though (even though I know even some web sites have them in mind), I haven't
read anything about an option for epileptics, I wonder how that would work
because making a game safe for epileptics is not only more work but if for
some reason someone dies playing your game then you would be to blame, maybe
that's because it's not done by big companies?
~~~
dcaunt
I think they would still include standard disclaimers, just add the options
and leave the risk with the gamer.
~~~
mmastrac
I think there's something to be said for personal responsibility here. Games
are known to have bright flashing lights. If you are epileptic, don't play
games unless they are specifically designed to be epilepsy-safe (or have
someone nearby to help).
------
ExxKA
A misleading headline if there ever was one.
How has this tragic death got anything to do with how to design websites for
ppl with visual disabilities?
~~~
nobodysfool
Yeah, he kind of glosses over the most important personal issue here.
[http://trace.wisc.edu/peat/](http://trace.wisc.edu/peat/)
That's a tool you can use which can analyze whether your website could
potentially induce epilepsy. If it could, you can either redesign or simply
display a warning.
However I found it interesting that there are some people who induce it on
themselves by simply waving their fingers in front of their eyes... I don't
think a game would have been to blame for someone's death.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Human hands evolved so we could punch each other - baha_man
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn23018-human-hands-evolved-so-we-could-punch-each-other.html
======
ColinWright
Disputed: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4947241>
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Microsoft Surface available for pre-order - tarekayna
http://www.microsoft.com/surface/en-US
======
TopTrix
The price is little too high. At first place, you have lost the selling punch.
What other justification you have about the price and why I should go for it
if I already have everything set up on Android and web?
~~~
mandeepj
First of all no comparison. It have USB 3 and mini display port (pro version).
It is a nice combo of mobility and ease like iPad + power like a laptop. It is
a full blown mobile machine. Ipad, android are just content consuming devices.
You can't do much on them besides just absorbing content. I am glad MS
understood the missing features from ipad and came with this beautiful
product.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Dell XPS 13 Developer Edition - Synroc
http://www.dell.com/us/business/p/xps-13-linux/pd
======
dang
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9332097](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9332097)
------
MichaelGG
Why oh why does it have a buttonless clickpad? I've got a ThinkPad T440p and
it's terrible. I despise every minute of working on it and have to bring a
mouse around. Is this just copying Apple for looks?
I'm dying to buy a laptop that's as good as my X201 (and keeps 12" format,
though thickness doesn't matter much), but with modern specs. I'm probably
gonna break down and get an X250, which is limited to 8GB of RAM for no good
reason, but I've heard newer processors can handle IM's 16GB SODIMM, so that
particular problem might be solved. The X250 is the first gen ThinkPad after
Lenovo partially realized they had destroyed the ThinkPad line and started,
albeit slightly, listening to customers again.
Any other suggestions? I've tried using a macbook, and the screen is great,
but the keyboard, clickpad, and hot metal are very uncomfortable.
I'd spend hundreds on a conversion kit to drop new guts into an X201. (And to
mod it with mechanical switches... I'd spend a lot.) It seems you can't spend
as much on a ThinkPad these days. My X201 was over $2000 without WWAN, but the
X250 tops out around $1600.
~~~
avtar
I bought a used X230, upgraded to 16GB of RAM, added an SSD, and it's been an
awesome machine so far. But you're right, the X250 will offer a better
display. At least Lenovo seems to have eased up on the hardware blacklist
where this model and the T450 are concerned
[http://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comments/31rnsv/t450_and_x2...](http://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comments/31rnsv/t450_and_x250_no_longer_have_whitelists/)
Also, here's a link related to the 16GB SO-DIMM modules that you mentioned
[https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/X-Series-ThinkPad-
Laptops/16GB-...](https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/X-Series-ThinkPad-Laptops/16GB-
SO-DIMMs-work-in-X250/m-p/2035646)
~~~
FelixP
I have the same setup, as well as a 15" retina MBP. Each one is optimized for
different use cases, but it's amusing that a machine that ran me ~$400 is
better for a lot of things than my $2500+ top of the line Apple.
Biggest drawback of the X230 is the AWFUL trackpad and the low res screen.
Highly recommend getting the extended battery.
------
userbinator
It seems almost every manufacturer is trying to make their laptops look like
Macbooks, but what I'd really like to see is some Thinkpad clones.
~~~
Kurtz79
How exactly this resemble a Macbook in any way ?
It is not unibody, it is not aluminum, the screen is basically without bezel.
This is the first non-Apple ultrabook that is genuinely interesting to me,
design wise.
~~~
userbinator
From the link:
_Machined aluminum construction means the XPS 13 is precision-cut from a
single block of aluminum for a sturdy, durable chassis._
The keyboard picture there...
[http://i.dell.com/sites/imagecontent/products/PublishingImag...](http://i.dell.com/sites/imagecontent/products/PublishingImages/xps-13-linux/images/laptop-
xps-13-love-pdp-dev-design-4.jpg)
...also looks very similar to that of the old plastic-bodied black Macbook:
[http://old.javconcepts.com/modules/blog/media/4/keyboard.jpg](http://old.javconcepts.com/modules/blog/media/4/keyboard.jpg)
~~~
Kurtz79
I stand corrected.
It still does not look anything like a (recent) Macbook, imho.
------
_halgari
Sadly I can't get too interested in a machine like this. What I want in a work
machine is the following:
1) 16GB RAM (or more) 2) High density display 3) SSD drive 4) Quad core or
better CPU 5) Small and thin 6) Discrete NVIDIA GPU (not the Intel integrated
crap)
Apple's MBP is the only machine I know of that fits this bill. I'm becoming
less and less a fan of OSX, but you can't argue against the hardware. Can
anyone point me to a non-Apple machine that does these things?
EDIT:
Thanks for the pointers! I'll look into the Dell and Lenovo machines mentioned
here. It's been a year or so since I've looked for machines comparable to my
older MBP, so it's cool to see some new options.
~~~
Someone1234
Only Apple's top end machines ship with a Nvidia card now and in my experience
those same machines have quite serious overheating problems.
Thinkpad's T series fits some of your bill but I doubt the screen is high
density enough.
PS - I must be the only person on earth who thinks the user experience with
1080p is better than super-high resolution. Currently most operating systems
(Windows, Linux, and OS X to a degree) suck at high DPI so your fonts and UI
elements shrink as the resolution increases.
~~~
skynetv2
i have had one since 2010, never had heat issues
~~~
Someone1234
Apple has "thinned" the MBP line several times since then. I had a 2014 Nvidia
model and it over-heated like crazy, in particular in Windows.
~~~
skynetv2
ok fair. my colleague has 2014 rmbp 15 with nvidia and he plays games on it
too, all in os x though. never had any issues with heating.
maybe its windows compatibility issue
------
timtadh
I know some are disappointed by the lack of ram in the XPS 13. If you need a
beefer laptop there is another Dell "Project Sputnik" (aka Ubuntu) laptop the
Precision M3800. [http://www.dell.com/learn/us/en/555/campaigns/xps-linux-
lapt...](http://www.dell.com/learn/us/en/555/campaigns/xps-linux-
laptop?c=us&l=en&s=biz)
It is more comparable to a Mac Book Pro and can be configured with 16 GB of
memory as well as the hi res display.
------
TYPE_FASTER
I've been using the previous gen XPS 13 and my 2009 MacBook Pro for the past
eight months. My experience with the XPS 13, and Dell in general, has been
disappointing.
If I had to make the decision again, I'd definitely get the M3800 instead of
the XPS 13.
1\. Google about trackpad configuration (palm detection, etc.) on the XPS 13
Dev Edition, it seems to be a combination of the hardware and Linux driver
support. Maybe it's fixed in this new rev, I'm not sure.
2\. There are known issues with audio popping and crackling when you plug the
XPS 13 Dev Edition into speakers.
3\. When you're sitting in a quiet environment, like a home office at night,
you can hear electrical noise coming from the laptop. It's a known issue,
maybe it's resolved in this new generation.
4\. One of our XPS 13s was DOA. It happens. It took _eight weeks_ to get a
replacement, starting from the first time I contacted support. Once I was
connected to somebody in USA on-shore support, they were very helpful, and
told me much of that turnaround time is based on their suppliers.
~~~
MichaelGG
Is the electrical noise a high pitched whine? Coil whine? Every Intel laptop
I've used has it. It's supposedly due to power saving going on and off. At
least on my ThinkPad, disabling power saving (ie running the CPU at full power
all the time) made it go away. I think I may have developed tinnitus from it.
It's unbelievably unprofessional.
'Course, disabling CPU power saving modes kill battery, but my T440p never got
much life to begin with (I get maybe 70 minutes max now, down from around 2
hours. But I'm running VMware for everything, so perhaps that hurts.)
~~~
TheLoneWolfling
My laptop (a Toshiba Satellite) has an annoying level of coil whine. If it's
from power saving, it's GPU power-saving state related, not CPU. It's not
noticeably affected by turning off CPU power saving modes, at the very least.
It's most noticeable when scrolling image-heavy webpages, or with pretty much
anything that ends up with framerates in audio frequencies. Older versions of
Dwarf Fortress on the menu screen, for instance.
------
Splendor
This looks like the perfect laptop for me at this moment. I just worry that a
ceiling of 8GB of RAM means it won't be the perfect laptop for me next year.
And I'd like my laptop to last me 2-3 years.
~~~
SuperKlaus
Second that, 8GB of RAM is a bit meager.
~~~
djhworld
Google Chrome takes up at least 2.5GB on my Mac, 8GB is a complete joke
~~~
ulfw
Time to get rid of Chrome then.
~~~
dijit
the alternative is firefox, and that's just as bad.
the issue isn't necessarily chrome, chromes only crime is correctly jailing
tabs.
the issue is in certain sites adding an absolute metric tonne of javascript
and javascript libraries.
my previous workplace had over 10MB of javascript on the home page alone, new
devs reduced it to 1.5MB or so, but that's _still insane_.
and a 1.5MB download isn't 1.5MB in memory, it's much more. we need to tone
down the "richness' of our sites.. your users aren't _only_ using _your_ site!
------
cdnsteve
It runs Ubuntu and costs about the same of a ChromeBook Pixel here a few weeks
back.
([https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9185526](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9185526)).
Seems to be limited to 8 gigs ram, Pixel gives you 16 but has less HD space.
No USB Type-C either...
How does the keyboard compare to a MBP? Love that keyboard.
Do they also include free Ubuntu stickers to cover up the Windows logo on the
keyboard? :)
Would love to hear from real devs using this.
~~~
sandGorgon
get them from here - [http://www.unixstickers.com/stickers/linux-keyboard-
stickers](http://www.unixstickers.com/stickers/linux-keyboard-stickers)
~~~
cdnsteve
wow these exist, amazing!
~~~
sandGorgon
you should join us over at the Thinkpad gang... you know, with coreboot and
laptops that can actually go to the moon ;)
------
untog
My Macbook Pro isn't even a year old yet, so I won't be replacing it any time
soon. But hardware like this is finally competitive with Apple - I'd be taking
a close look if I was in the market.
The fact that OS X has gotten worse and worse with every version makes me
switching next time even more likely.
------
cookrn
This was posted yesterday as well:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9332097](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9332097)
------
josteink
To ask those complaining about 8gb not being enough... Please name one thing
that won't allow you to do which is crucial in your day to day workflow.
I'm not saying i don't believe you, I'm just genuinely curious.
Edit: Looking at this thread, I have to say there has to be a cause and effect
here somewhere. You have a million web-developers saying they need more than
8GB to use Chrome to surf web-pages and web-apps.
I'm pretty sure web-apps sucking that amount of resources was caused by giving
web-devs machines with 8GBs+ of RAM to begin with. Giving them more, wont fix
the problem. It will only make it worse.
As for a developer-anecdote: Almost all bugs post-shipping bugs I've
experienced and had to fix, more than 50% has only been reproducable on low-
resource constrained environments.
By super-specing your dev-environment, you _are_ shipping bugs you cannot
detect. You just don't know it.
~~~
PopsiclePete
Run an OS X VM in order to illicitly develop iOS apps. Run a Windows 8 VM to
work on legit Windows apps. Run both VM's at the same time.
Anything under 16 GB is unacceptable to me.
Developer edition? Nope, not really. I need Linux, Windows _and_ OS X. So my
only option remains, as ever, a macbook pro with 16GB RAM.
~~~
akfanta
Why would you need both of them running at the same time though? Also, unless
you are on Linux, you probably don't need both of these two VMs. Lastly, I
don't quite understand why any serious developer would want to run their dev
environment in a VM to begin with.
~~~
mootothemax
_Lastly, I don 't quite understand why any serious developer would want to run
their dev environment in a VM to begin with._
I'm really surprised to hear this; I spent enough years working on a local dev
environment to know the pain. Heck, I've seen the bugs that come from it as
well.
Now that Docker's around, and you can run a production-equivalent environment
on your local machine, I'd _never_ go back to the bad old days.
------
GrinningFool
8GB max RAM kind of rules it out for any heavy duty development.
~~~
flurdy
:( 8GB rules out me.Fitting inside that with constant swap file writes will
kill the SSD quickly.
16GB is fine for now but it wont be long beofer I need to look for 32GB.
Multiple VMs, Docker clusters with several memory heavy JVM apps (Scala), too
many browser tabs, etc. just don't play nice with 8GB anymore.
A nearly $2K laptop aimed at developers with 8GB is a bit of a joke to be
honest. Shame, as otherwise it seems like such a nice piece of kit.
~~~
draven
Honest question: why run all that stuff locally? It looks like you're looking
for a portable server.
I'm working on a Macbook Pro w/ 16Gb of ram but I'm not doing anything I
couldn't do on a machine with 8 or even 4 Gb of ram (replacing Intellij w/
Emacs, as I'm planning to do anyway.)
~~~
flurdy
True, a personal development server(s) may offload my needs but remote servers
don't work well when offline a lot, or intermittently offline on my long
commute by train. Not having the full stack locally is usually very
frustrating.
Whilst I also use clients and my own aws or gke servers etc, but that is more
for staging integration testing not during development.
Oh yes I forgot the memory hog of IntelliJ, especially with Scalaz, and if
multiple projects/windows openend at once... Currently using 9GB on my mbp,
used mostly by chrome, intellij and sqlserver in a vm and without any sbt,
tomcat or docker containers running.
Sure this memory hog is down to my chosen tech stack and tools, and how I
choose to use them. But I already use multiple vagrant dev boxes and will spin
up more and more docker containers for minute tasks so I can't see my memory
needs go down.
------
endlessvoid94
Devil's advocate time!
What's to keep Dell from heavily customizing and releasing / packaging a
version of Ubuntu in the same vein that apple customized, released, packaged
nextstep as OS X? The only thing I can think of would be "talent at the
company". And I know next to nothing about the internals of dell, let alone
what they've done since being repurchased and privatized.
Kind of a fun thought, even if it's a little far fetched.
~~~
SwellJoe
Dell is historically monumentally incompetent at software. Michael Dell's own
book discusses the epic failure of a large software project they embarked on
many years ago now.
That's not to say Dell has to remain incompetent at software...with a will to
do so, and enough money and competent management (which Dell does seem to
have), they could theoretically build a top-notch software engineering
organization.
~~~
endlessvoid94
Are you referring to "Direct from Dell"? (I haven't read, but want to add
whatever book you're talking about to my reading list).
~~~
SwellJoe
Yeah, that's the one. It's been at least a decade since I read it. I didn't
find it all that good, honestly. I wouldn't push it to the top of your reading
list, anyway. It might be more of a "skim it" title.
------
dijit
the lack of a native ethernet port rules it out for any operations work that
requires working on the datacenter floor.
actually this is a frustrating trend, native ethernet adapters are 0 cost to
CPU instructions, I know you can use thunderbolt (and I've not looked at the
spec in detail) but USB ethernet controllers use the CPU when plugged in- and
I'm not a large fan of that honestly.
what happened to the very small, fold out ethernet ports? like the one on the
old XPS 15 (or:
[http://www.pcstats.com/articleimages/201304/sam540U3C_edge2....](http://www.pcstats.com/articleimages/201304/sam540U3C_edge2.jpg))
Maybe I'm too much of a power user for a 13" but for me this feels like a step
back from netbooks from a functionality and mobility standpoint, and not far
enough a leap forward for performance to justify stepping "up" from a Thinkpad
X201. (which I have loaded with an SSD and 8G ram)
but, I agree that my use-case is significantly different from most peoples.
I'm still left recalling a time where manufacturers were reluctant to stop
shipping with 56k modems- but seem to have dropped Rj45 pretty quick.
~~~
mattbeckman
Unless you need to use a crossover cable, why not just add a wireless hub to
your DC LAN? We have one at our DC, but it's only ~3 cabs worth of equipment,
so YMMV.
~~~
dijit
PCI requirement (and good security in general): never run any radio equipment
inside your datacenter.
------
jraedisch
Having a lot of ram is nice, but every time I read that people need at least
8gb for development, I ask myself what it is that they are running. I am
running chrome, sublime, docker, hbase, redis, memcached, mongodb and probably
some more stuff and I hardly swap with 4gb, or maybe I just do not realize it
because of my ssd. Am I missing some ultra useful, memory annihilating dev
tool?
~~~
kbenson
I think the usual response is virtual hosts. On Mac, run windows or linux, on
Windows, run linux, etc.
~~~
simonebrunozzi
What do you use for that? What would be the best solution in 2015?
------
daddykotex
That is the kinds of machine I was looking for when I bought my MBP. I was
asking for a few things :
16GB of RAM An SSD drive An FHD display
Unfortunately, most of the products available with these features were either
similarly priced as the MBP but with clumsy trackpads reputation.
------
meritt
I'm continually shocked at the lack of options when it comes to having 16GB of
memory in a <15" laptop. As far as I know, the only options are:
MBP Chromebook Pixel System76 Galago
Anything else that even exists?
~~~
shillx
Sager NP7339 13" and Sager NP2740 14" can both be configured with 16GB. I
believe Sager is a Clevo reseller like System76.
------
l-vincent-l
The main problem for me is that you won't be able to use a docking station
with this laptop since the DL-3000 Series Chips aren't supported...
------
spot
does ubuntu really handle HiDPI? i have a 4K screen at home and it is a
disaster.
~~~
PopsiclePete
Ubuntu itself may handle it, but lots of applications look terrible. Chrome is
one of them, last time I checked. Firefox had certain scaling issues as well.
Sadly, Apple is still the only game in town when it comes to automatic and
correct resolution scaling.
~~~
spot
well the kernel has no trouble :)
i would consider the file explorer nautilus to be part of ubuntu and it's
broken too.
------
techaddict009
How much is the battery backup of it?
------
brettbl
soooo, they give you Ubunutu instead and call it the "developer" edition?
~~~
brettbl
they used to just give you ubuntu as an option in the business class computers
to save a couple bucks
------
therebase
A dell notebook? Never again.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: What makes a good job description? - unsane1
Doing some research for my next project. What I am looking for are opinions from both sides of the desk. Please feel free to add things not listed, to rank things, and to just comment freely.<p>If you are looking for a job, what do you find to be the most important part of a job description?<p>If you are a hiring manager, what do you find to be the key elements of what you are trying to communicate to a prospective employee? And what do you find to be the most effective way of triggering a good response?<p>Some things that seem to go in most postings
Specific skills needed
Location
Salary
Company personality
Environment
Benefits
Posted by recruiter or actual company
Etc...<p>Thanks!
======
ecaroth
This article on HN this morning (and the comments on HN and the post itself)
gives a lot of great indirect insight into this topic:
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3404437>
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Better to Be Born Rich Than Talented - wslh
https://ritholtz.com/2018/10/born-rich-or-talented/
======
wsc981
Doesn't surprise me. I believe the same is true in Europe [0], perhaps most of
the world. The following might sound weird, but I hope I can make my daughter
rich and she will get children that will inherit her wealth. Now I am just a
simple freelance developer, but I earn a decent income and live in a low-cost
country (Thailand), so I figure I might be able to make my daughter (1.5 years
now) a millionaire, which would be a great start for her. And perhaps her
future children as well.
\---
[0]: [https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-08-23/how-to-
st...](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-08-23/how-to-stay-rich-in-
europe-inherit-money-for-700-years)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
GothamGal on Drugs, Drinking and Kids - testinghn
http://www.gothamgal.com/gotham_gal/2011/08/drugs-drinking-and-kids.html
======
mc32
Drinking patterns are different in Southern Europe as contrasted with Northern
Europe. Hence the chugging (binge drinking) in Sweden, England, Germany vs.
the more leisurely wine and pastis in Italy, France, Portugal, etc. Not to say
So. Euros don't engage in binge drinking --but on average less so. so even in
Europe it's not the same --not to mention Russia.
------
petervandijck
Letting your kids try some beer/wine at home from when they're 12-14 years old
makes total sense for me, or let them have a regular beer from when they're
14-16 at home. Then again, I'm European.
The whole American "you can't drink until you're 21" thing? ..., I mean, I
don't even know what to say. Does _anyone_ think that's healthy?
~~~
Vitaly
It is especially ridiculous when you consider that 18 yo considered old enough
to die for them in wars, but not old enough to relax with friends over a beer.
Or old enough to have sex, merry and rise kids. Damn, just think of a young
family with kids that parents considered not old enough to buy a bottle of
wine to celebrate anything, like child birth ;)
------
mc32
Drinking patterns are different in Southern Europe as contrasted with Northern
Europe. Hence the chugging (binge drinking) in Sweden, England, Germany vs.
the more leisurely wine and pastis in Italy, France, Portugal, etc. Not to say
So. Euros don't engage in binge drinking --but on average less so. so even in
Europe it's not the same --not to mention Russia.
------
HamMan_0
I stopped reading at "drugs is illegal"
~~~
shin_lao
AFAIK this is true.
~~~
mc32
I think they're pointing to poor editing.
~~~
shin_lao
My bad. I agree the article is badly written.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
People You May Know - getp
http://blog.facebook.com/blog.php?post=15610312130
======
foobar2k
The problem with this system for me is, facebook is suggesting people who I
have previously removed from my friends list, so by clicking on the X I remove
them from the suggestion list, but facebook may imply this means their
recommendation was not accurate.
It seems there are many different groups of users on facebook, some people
"collect" friends and others add only current, relevant friends.
~~~
nertzy
I'd be surprised if they use the X for anything other than simple hiding.
This was a feature I was pretty interested in about two years ago. I spent
some time trying to use the pre-Application-Platform API to build it out
myself, but there were too many limitations on the FQL querying API.
At the (relatively small) Facebook developer party at SXSW in 2007 I talked
with one of the Facebook employees about wanting this feature, and he said
they had it working internally, but that they faced similar problems with the
user experience; for instance, they would get all of the people they know well
but hate.
I imagine that they held back from releasing it until they came up with the
"X" dismissal feature so that users wouldn't have to be continually annoyed by
their enemies.
------
Tichy
Cool - soon you can be friends without even knowing it.
------
wensing
Another feature that attempts to be smart, but how often does it succeed?
Perhaps this is off-topic, but does anyone else feel like Facebook's apex is
in the past? I mean this in the same way that PG has declared MSFT dead. Not
that Facebook is dead, but are they in their prime? They at least do not seem
to be aging gracefully.
------
markbao
Somewhat accurate, but thankfully not as creepily accurate as LinkedIn's.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
The French conspiracy theory to end all conspiracy theories - pessimizer
http://www.theguardian.com/media-network/2016/apr/22/french-conspiracy-theory-thomas-huchon-antoine-robin-conspi-hunter
======
dudul
Right. And 10 years ago, this movie would have been about this ridiculous
conspiracy theory asserting that the NSA was listening every phone call,
collecting data on everybody and forcing companies to install backdoors in
their systems :)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Photo capture, manipulation, and upload in iOS6 Safari - skattyadz
http://port3000.co.uk/taking-ios6s-one-step-further-client-side-ima
======
jasonkostempski
Started making a site this week that uses these features. Select or take a
pic, touch it and move around to pick a color out of it, click the color bar
to get a solid color image of that color, download it, set it as wallpaper,
BAM! your background matches your outfit, case, car, new lamp, room where you
dock your phone, anything. <http://www.solidbg.com/beta/>
It's hosted on a AWS S3 instance, no server side code. I love how much power a
simple static html/js/css site can have these days and it's getting better
every day.
I also ran into the exact same issues, rotation and squashing. I did a small
work around for the squashing, not in a great way but it's in the js file.
~~~
skattyadz
Interesting, I'll have a look at your workaround. It's truly awesome the
things you can do with static files right now - no need to worry about a
server staying up, having enough space, etc, etc.
I think the main use for this is going to be uploading images at a reasonable
resolution. On mobile, you rarely want to upload the full 8 megapixels from
the camera. The fact that you can scale it down client side is awesome!
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: Are People Overlooking the Dangers of Browser Extensions? - CM30
Because as strange as it sounds, the generous permissions they often ask for and the fact they can modify all the pages you're viewing mean that they'd theoretically be a great vector for man in the middle attacks, and bring back the exact problems https supposedly solved.<p>They also seem like a great way to manipulate audiences with 'fake news' or 'misinformation'. Imagine a fake version of adblock that replaced news site content with propaganda or what not. That could be far worse than anything any 'Russian trolls' ever could do, and could even let an adversary manipulate a group into thinking the world is against them (since their posts about such content would appear as gibberish to everything else, and get them banned from social media sites).<p>Just feels like there are a ton of sneaky things that could be done here, and that the way Google and co are handling these things could be extremely dangerous in the long run.
======
MiddleEndian
With both Chrome and Firefox preventing users from running unsigned extensions
at all, even with a configurable option, we are being too paranoid about
extensions in my opinion, handing our decisions over to centralized
organizations.
If I lost the ability to filter out shit on the web, whether it be ads, the
junk YouTube displays over videos, or just things that I find visually
unpleasant, I'd probably stop browsing most sites. User control is more
important than anything, in my opinion.
~~~
jordanthoms
You can still load any old unsigned JS in Chrome by going to
chrome://extensions, tuning on developer mode and choosing 'Load Unpacked'
~~~
MiddleEndian
In Firefox I could also enable a developer profile but it's still a pain and
not equivalent to just a setting.
------
olliej
People who care about security* are acutely aware of the potential damage an
extension can cause, that’s why browsers have been increasingly locking down
what extensions can do, and locking down installation mechanisms.
All browsers have invested significant effort in technical controls designed
to prevent malicious apps from installing extensions automatically.
That said do end users misjudge the safety of extensions? Maybe: I would guess
that people who would not download and run random binaries could be convinced
to install an extension - essentially the user is judging an extension as
being safer than a regular download. But that assessment is not wrong: an
extension runs in a much more tightly constrained environment, is
theoretically at least marginally more vetted than a random download, etc
* not talking about end users who care about security, but rather the engineers ensuring that a platform is secure and robust.
------
cypherg
It's def something that the security folk in sv are looking at. see:
[https://github.com/facebook/osquery/blob/master/packs/unwant...](https://github.com/facebook/osquery/blob/master/packs/unwanted-
chrome-extensions.conf) Problem is that it's currently only reactive.
------
elwell
This happened recently with a fake version of MetaMask stealing crypto.
------
cecja
There is a pet peeve I have with firefox on the regard of extension security.
While chrome disables all extensions in private browsing in firefox they are
all enabled. So most people use private browsing for critical sites like
banking if there is a rogue extensions you are completely exposed from
firefox. Even if you disable the extensions in private there are active again
the next time you start it. I filled a bug months ago not a single response.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Modern C [pdf] - adamnemecek
http://icube-icps.unistra.fr/img_auth.php/d/db/ModernC.pdf
======
jws
I might have to make a _What has changed in C since 1980_ page for old
programmers. I've tried to stay current, but I learned something from this
book already:
size_t strlen(char const string[static 1]);
int main(int argc, char* argv[argc+1]);
This allegedly helps prevent null pointers from being passed in, and
presumably tells the analyzers and optimizers some things they should know.
It's worth a look at C11 as well, some of what you might have used gcc or
clang attributes for has climbed into the language, such as _Noreturn,
_Alignas, _Alignof and their friend aligned_alloc().
Addendum: Well, you can pass in pointers that go to fewer elements, but you
can't pass in an actual naked null.
~~~
przemoc
I didn't know about use of static keyword in array parameter declaration, but
I dare to say that a lot of senior C programmers are unaware of this C99
feature.
It's nice to be able to specify function's expectations on that level, yet it
looks that only clang (tested with 3.5.0) takes use of it, while gcc (tested
with 4.9.1) seems oblivious to it. Be it NULL or shorter string literal than
expected, gcc with -Wall -Wextra -pedantic -std=c99 spits nothing. Both
mistakes are detected by clang.
Sadly even clang doesn't warn us when fun(int len, char str[static len+1]) is
called like fun(5, "test").
But I'm not sure that I agree with the rule 2.11.7.1 Don't use NULL. In any
sane C environment NULL is defined as follows (unless __cplusplus is already
defined, because then it's defined as 0 or 0L)
#define NULL ((void*)0)
and IMHO there is nothing wrong with that.
Distinguishing kind of 0 we're dealing with (even if it's not strongly guarded
by compiler) is often important for readability and eases maintenance of the
code (0 vs '\0' vs NULL). While comparing pointer with NULL (writing p == NULL
or p != NULL instead of simply !p or p) may seem superfluous (yet I have
nothing against programmers doing so), calling function with pointer
parameters providing 0 argument instead of NULL seems less clear to me.
> if you really want to emphasize that the value is a pointer use the magic
> token sequence (void *)0 directly.
I don't buy it.
~~~
hawski
One of musl libc guys wrote quite convincing article about NULL:
[http://ewontfix.com/11/](http://ewontfix.com/11/)
There was also discussion on musl mailing list (I don't know is this best link
to it):
[http://www.openwall.com/lists/musl/2013/01/09/1](http://www.openwall.com/lists/musl/2013/01/09/1)
~~~
przemoc
The topic was modern C and in modern C environment NULL is defined as
(void *)0
There is no point in writing longer form and it's still clearer and safer than
0 alone.
C++ is another story with its
void* hate
built-in. In this land you rather write
(type*)0
or
(type*)NULL
(or
static_cast<type*>(0)
for extra purists), but as you're denoting pointer type already in this
notation, there is not much gain in using NULL instead of 0 (well, beside
grepability).
In many cases you can be done with 0 alone in C++, that's true, and in such
cases NULL at least poses some intention, but if you're not careful enough,
you may end up putting NULL alone (without pointer-to-type cast) in some
variadic function and things start to blow up all of a sudden (that is if your
NULL integer width isn't the same as pointer width). That's why having a habit
of writing
(type*)0
is a good thing in this land.
Regarding musl check also:
[http://git.musl-
libc.org/cgit/musl/commit/include/stddef.h?i...](http://git.musl-
libc.org/cgit/musl/commit/include/stddef.h?id=c8a9c221)
In short, musl's stddef.h has following lines:
#ifdef __cplusplus
#define NULL 0L
#else
#define NULL ((void*)0)
#endif
NULL defined as 0L for C++ is nice workaround, but it works only for LP64
platforms.
In the same vein for Windows C++ x64 environment you need NULL to be 0LL, as
it is LLP64 platform.
------
titanomachy
Please have a native English speaker edit this book before distributing it.
It'd be a shame to have such substantial work dismissed due to awkward use of
language.
~~~
Kliment
I've just emailed the author offering to proof/edit. I used to do copy editing
in a past life.
Update: He wrote back and agreed.
~~~
swah
I love the internet when this happens. Thank you!
------
bjackman
Couple of things:
\- Pages 156 to 164 are missing (I tried to skip straight to the "Ambition"
section but couldn't find it).
\- The first sentence, "It has been a long time since the programming language
C is around" sounds wrong to a native English speaker. Say "The C programming
language has been around for a long time" or "It has been a long time since
the C programming language appeared". "Since" in English generally refers to
things that happened in perfect tenses (as opposed to e.g. "depuis" in French
that has an imperfect tone).
Hope these are helpful. Book sounds great.
~~~
jeffreyrogers
Only the first 3 sections have been written, so the other stuff is coming
later.
------
rifung
This looks awesome, I haven't had the need to become more proficient at C
since having learned (the basics of ) it as my first language, but this gives
me some motivation to learn more about it.
I also really like that the book can be read by people of varying levels of
experience, with sections devoted to different groups.
------
pornel
I really like C99. I've been trying to write C like that and the only problem
is that there are some users who _really_ like their MSVC from 1998 that
doesn't support half of that book.
~~~
kayamon
You mean their MSVC from 2012. They only just added support for C99 with the
latest release.
~~~
pjmlp
Because C is legacy on Windows. No need for C when there is C++, which also
allows for safer systems programming.
The C99 subset that was added was what is required by C++11/C++14 standards
and some key customers.
There are no plans for full ANSI C compliance, as discussed here
[http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Visual-Studio/Connect-
event-...](http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Visual-Studio/Connect-
event-2014/029)
[http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Visual-Studio/Connect-
event-...](http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Visual-Studio/Connect-
event-2014/311)
------
okasaki
Using unsigned ints everywhere seems like bad advice. Years may always be non-
negative, but year1 - year2 won't be half the time.
And if it's modern C, why not use the typedefs from stdint.h?
~~~
TazeTSchnitzel
If your result can be negative, use a signed integer. But in many cases you
shouldn't: unsigned integers have well-defined behaviour, you should take
advantage of that.
Also, while it's true that modern C has the stdint.h typedefs, the old types
are still good. All of the standard library, and many libraries you use, use
the old types, so this makes interaction with them more practical.
Furthermore, it'd probably best to use sizes suited to your platform. A long
will be 32-bit on a 32-bit system and 64-bit on a 64-bit system. You only need
long long in some cases. You can't avoid the traditional C types for things
like strings, either.
Really, stdint.h only matters if you're reading binary data or performance is
ultra-important, IMO.
~~~
acqq
> A long will be 32-bit on a 32-bit system and 64-bit on a 64-bit system.
Not on Windows. Long is there always 32 bits.
~~~
TazeTSchnitzel
Ah, yes, I should've noted that.
------
cyber1
"Rule A C and C++ are different, don’t mix them and don’t mix them up." :D
------
benwaffle
there is also 21st Century C:
[http://shop.oreilly.com/product/0636920025108.do](http://shop.oreilly.com/product/0636920025108.do)
half of it is about tools (valgrind, make, autoconf) and it also talks about
libraries (sqlite, gsl, etc...) of course there are some chapters about the
language itself
~~~
Scramblejams
How did you like that book? I was thinking about buying it, but a number of
the reviews I read dampened my enthusiasm.
FWIW tptacek likes _C Interfaces and Implementations_ by Hanson, wonder how
that compares.
~~~
emmanueloga_
> I was thinking about buying it, but a number of the reviews I read dampened
> my enthusiasm.
A bit meta:
Looking for a book in a particular subject, I picked one because of a number
of the reviews I read, but actually reading the book dampened my enthusiasm.
I don't know about this particular book, but if the subject is worth it it is
probably also worth your time to check it out yourself :-).
------
swah
I enjoyed "Learn C the hard way" by Zed Shaw, but [http://hentenaar.com/dont-
learn-c-the-wrong-way](http://hentenaar.com/dont-learn-c-the-wrong-way) kinda
opened my eyes for some issues, and Zed seems to aggree
([https://twitter.com/zedshaw/status/562535244713058304](https://twitter.com/zedshaw/status/562535244713058304))
that the material needs a rewrite.
------
feld
I can't seem to copy/paste the code examples without it messing up the
formatting. Can this be resolved?
------
bubbleRefuge
Is this a draft ? Section on Reetrancy seems to be missing ?
~~~
adamnemecek
It is a draft.
------
ExpiredLink
The book doesn't render properly in FF (but in Adobe Reader).
------
Redoubts
I hate to be that guy, but I find the formatting very off putting --
especially with respect to the internal links. Compare to
[https://github.com/sarabander/sicp-pdf](https://github.com/sarabander/sicp-
pdf) , which I find visually pleasant.
~~~
mjn
The internal links framed by a colored box are the default rendering of the
LaTeX hyperref package. I also don't like them, but they seem to be pretty
common, e.g. most arXiv papers do that. You can turn it off by passing the
'hidelinks' parameter when loading the package.
------
quelsolaar
The book claims that integer numbers wrap around. Thats not strictly true.
According to the C spec the overflow behavior is undefined, how ever on all
hardware known to man it wraps around. Why does it matter? Because some
compilers may assume no wrap around ever happens and use this to optimize.
~~~
smackmybishop
It only claims that for unsigned integers, which is true. It also correctly
says that signed overflow is undefined.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
US Senate blocks attempt to stop FBI accessing browsing history without warrant - primroot
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/fbi-browsing-history-government-senate-patriot-act-amendment-a9514941.html
======
tomohawk
By 1 vote. Where was Bernie?
~~~
mydongle
Social distancing
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Why do people discount the importance of a formal education in computer science? - pius
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=313700
======
scott_s
The field is very young. If you want to build bridges, you major in Civil
Engineering. You have to learn a lot of physics along the way, but make no
mistake: the point of your education is to prepare you to build things.
Computer Science is a mish-mash of many things, and only part of that is how
to build software. Sure, just about anything outside of pure CS theory
requires programming, but producing the working program is not the end in
itself. A big problem is that we really _don't know how to build good
software_. This does not mean good software does not exist. It means that we
don't have reliable methodology to produce good software. In contrast, we have
reliable methodologies to build good bridges.
The ACM studied this with the IEEE in 2000, and came to this conclusion
([http://www.cs.wm.edu/~coppit/csci690-spring2004/papers/selep...](http://www.cs.wm.edu/~coppit/csci690-spring2004/papers/selep_main.pdf)):
"Following a study by a blue ribbon panel of prominent software engineers, the
ACM Council decided in May 1999 that it could not support licensing of
software engineers. ACM's position is that our state of knowledge and practice
in software engineering is too immature to warrant licensing."
I think it's important to differentiate between Computer Science and Software
Engineering. That is, the difference between someone whose goal is
contributing to the base of knowledge in their field, and someone whose goal
is a stable, working system. There is, of course, overlap, but I think the
distinction is still there.
I think that in the future, there will be separate CS and SE degrees. Much of
what they learn will be the same, but the focus will be different. A CS
education will prepare you to be a researcher; a SE education will prepare you
to build software. (I know SE degrees exist, but most schools only have a CS
program.) I don't think this split will happen until SE is mature enough to be
licensed.
What does this have to do with your question?
We don't have reliable methodologies to build good software, and the only
formal education people receive that involves building software isn't
necessarily focused on actually building software. This is a nice way of
saying "we don't know what we're doing." If even the best people in the field
don't know what we're doing, then you can learn that on your own.
Personally, I still think a CS degree is the best preparation right now to be
a professional SE. You will probably be exposed to more things than you would
find on your own. But I also recognize that there are probably many
professional developers without degrees who are better at what they do than
people with degrees.
Also note that if you actually want to do research, then you _need_ to get a
degree.
~~~
tjpick
You are right about distinguishing between CS & SE. At least here in New
Zealand there is a distinction between the two. I have a BE (software eng),
which is internationally accredited, rather than a BSc (CS). The SE degree
involves general engineering courses, and has a reasonable focus on
reliabiliy, quality, safety etc. A degree like this makes you eligible for the
professional engineering body IPENZ.
There is a mismatch between the education and what employers seem to look for.
You see jobs titled "software engineer" that really only want an html/js coder
or someone to set up a wiki, requesting CS degrees or equivalent experience.
Jobs that really do demand rigourous software practices will hire anything
they can get, but again mainly looking for CS degrees.
> Personally, I still think a CS degree is the best preparation right now to
> be a professional SE. I have to disagree. The best prep for a professional
> SE career is a professional SE degree, and then joining a professional body.
> Sure you can get a CS degree and become a programmer, that's fine. But you
> aren't really a professional engineer are you?
I'd say that there are reliable methodologies to build software but a lot of
times these are not executed in any meaningful fashion. For the price people
are willing to pay, and the time they will wait, quality software is not what
they want. They may say they want quality, but they don't really. They really
want something delivered yesterday, for free or cheap, that works most of the
time and does most of the things they want. And this is what cowboys (uh... I
mean "software engineers") deliver.
I don't really like the bridges analogy. The complexity and environment are
too different for it to be meaningful when compared to software. Thing is,
bridges have a well defined function, the banks don't move, the load is
generally known (vehicles, people, etc) and so a stable structure can be
delivered. And besides, plenty of bridges collapse. If there is an earthquake,
or they are overloaded, or they get old, they topple.
~~~
scott_s
My comment about a CS degree being the best preparation for a SE career was
assuming a SE degree is not an option. At most colleges and universities in
the US - as far as I know - it's not.
------
ajmoir
Because time and time again people with a formal education in computer science
have turned out to be useless in the commercial arena.
Let's face facts most programming is not rocket science and could easily be
automated. The reason it has not been automated is that programmers by and
large are Luddites. They can admire new gadgets but not seismic changes in
their work environment.
Anybody who has had the where with all to study for a BSc/MSc/PhD then most
work in a commercial setting is going to be far far beneath their intellectual
capabilities.
In short Compu Sci is best for a research role and commercial dev experience
is best for producing a product. The two are widely different beasts.
Personally, I have BSc in CompuSci and work in the commercial sector. I think
both Academia and Commercial use of computers is abysmal. The last big step
forward was in the 1960s for Academia and 1980s for business. Since then it's
all been downhill.
I have recent compu sci grads who cannot design a simple 8 bit cpu, what's an
ALU. This is just plain wrong. I also have witnessed commercial developers who
don't know how to treat clients. In both cases why are these people even
bothering to work in computing?
Most devs still think inheritance is more important than interface. Just how
far forward can we move with these fools slowing us down.
I think what it will take to move forward is a company saying if we do IT
better we can rule the market. Then finding some devs and ops with long
experience and fresh ideas.
When a billion dollar company shows it can run it's IT with 20 people then we
have progressed. Not when some dweeb says he has a new programming language
that goes to 11.
~~~
swombat
_When a billion dollar company shows it can run it's IT with 20 people then we
have progressed. Not when some dweeb says he has a new programming language
that goes to 11._
Well, billion dollar seems a little excessive. Let's say $100m.
In which case, 37signals is, imho, the closest thing today.
~~~
nostrademons
Craigslist.
~~~
swombat
Ah yes, true, they're even closer.
------
axod
There are a lot of other vocations where formal training isn't always an
asset.
How many rock/pop stars formally trained to be a musician? Did hendrix do a
Phd in the guitar?
I think the same is true in hacking. The best way to become good is through
practice, and self learning. Not necessarily from learning other peoples
opinions, or current fads.
~~~
gaius
It's about barriers to entry. Anyone can buy their own guitar and learn to
play. Anyone can buy their own computer and learn to program. But few if any
amateur zoologists can afford a zoo, or amateur physicists a Hadron Collider.
You need, in those fields, to get the approval of other people before you can
practice. The formal education just gets you to the point where you can be
taken seriously, but without anyone having to commit substantial resources to
you upfront.
------
wheels
Because most people who studied computer science aren't employed as computer
scientists. If someone refers to themselves as a computer scientist, I expect
that they've either had formal (or rigorous informal) education in CS. If they
refer to themselves as a programmer, I assume they know how to program. If
someone says that they work at a zoo I don't assume they studied zoology. I do
if they call themselves a zoologist.
------
yters
Cuz they think programming is computer science?
~~~
andreyf
Alan Kay uses an interesting analogy to explain the distinction between
"Computer Science" and "Software Engineering":
_UCLA has one computer science department, but 25 full departments of biology
(not counting medical school stuff). Why? Biologists are smarter then we are.
When things are bogging down, the best thing to do is to go create a new
department._ ([http://www.windley.com/cgi-
bin/printthis.pl?url=http://www.w...](http://www.windley.com/cgi-
bin/printthis.pl?url=http://www.windley.com/archives/2006/02/alan_kay_is_com.shtml))
I think the pharmacy:"software engineering"::biology:"computer science"
metaphor is pretty insightful. So to answer your question - people discount a
formal education in CS because it isn't necessary to write good code, just
like pharmacists don't need the formal education that research biologists go
through.
~~~
yters
A lot of disciplines are organized into strata, where once you are on a
particular stratum in terms of what you know, you can get a lot done without
learning new things. The truly new ideas tend to occur in corner cases or
logical extremes, and generally people discount such things as being too
focused on insignificant details. However, these corner cases often lead to
new strata. I suspect corner cases define the history of ideas.
So, when working on practical problems, since they are the general case, it is
hard to see the value of special, stratifying issues.
------
olefoo
1\. academic study of computer science is an indicator of interest not ability
2\. Computer Science programs vary widely in what they teach and at what
level, ranging from 'All you need is Java' vocational programs to 'You might
as well double major in Math' theory of computing. Two people with BSCS
degrees from the same institution may have vastly different levels of ability
and accomplishment.
3\. There exists a spectrum from EECS majors who can write any program and
build the computer to run it, down to BACS who can code a form in VB if
someone sets up their IDE for them.
4\. Because the demand for competent programmers is so strong, smart people
who trained in many fields find employment as programmers and often do better
than those trained.
5\. If I have to explain version control to someone who graduated from college
with a degree in computer science; I discount that person's ability, and my
estimate of the program they graduated from.
------
auston
I would never claim to be a computer scientist or even a computer programmer.
I am a web developer, I work with scripting languages to develop basic web
applications. I do not develop complex algorithms or even know the difference
between threads and processes (anyone want to enlighten really quick?).
</incomplete_thought>
~~~
aaronblohowiak
<http://www.cafeaulait.org/course/week11/02.html>
------
raganwald
Good question. I work with a team where a degree in CS "or equivalent
experience" is considered a requirement. The other day someone asked me what
Kernel#returning does in RubyOnRails. "It's the K Combinator" I replied.
Do you think they instantly knew what I meant? And would it have helped if
they had?
~~~
scott_s
To be fair, I have two Computer Science degrees, I'm close to my third, and I
had to look it up. Most people I work with right now (who have CS PhDs) would
probably need to look it up since they do mostly systems and high performance
work.
~~~
raganwald
I'm not suggesting anyone ought to know it off the top of their head. The only
reason I remembered it is because I am a big fan of Raymond Smullyan's "To
Mock a Mockingbird," the best introduction to Combinatoral Logic ever written:
[http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0192801422?ie=UTF8&tag=...](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0192801422?ie=UTF8&tag=raganwald001-20)
As a result, I remember it as the Kestrel which he introduces in the same
chapter as the Mockingbird, Identity Bird, and Lark.
But actually, I really don't expect anyone to remember it. My point was a
little sarcastic, I was trying to point out that programming is at least as
much about stuff you use regularly or read currently as it is about stuff you
learned a few years ago.
If you don't use whatever you were taught, you will lose it. And if you learn
it another way--I'm sure there are people who use #returning without knowing
anything about combinbatoral logic--it might be just as good. Not knowing what
a K combinator does is not particularly harmful to being an amazing software
developer.
I am not denigrating a degree in computer science. I think it is an amazingly
excellent way to start a career (be that working for others or yourself) in
software development. But, OTOH, after a person has been working for a while,
I think it carries less weight than what they have done with themselves since
graduating.
If a really good degree leads to a really good first job, which leads to a
better seond job, and so forth, I am all for the really good degree that
started the process.
------
run4yourlives
I don't think it's a cut and dry matter.
Formal CS education matters in many cases, but is clearly not a distinguishing
factor in many others. It all depends on what it is you're evaluating.
Let's be blunt, 95% of Web 2.0 startup stuff is purely programming. These are
practical problems that require practical solutions. Although a CS degree is
probably a plus, experience and a few working examples of work are more than
likely bigger pluses.
But that's a very specific subset. If you're doing advanced and technically
challenging work like say, trying to beat google, the foundation that you gain
by having a formal CS degree starts to matter a little more.
I don't think anyone discounts anything, but there are different levels of
application depending on the situation.
------
mrjbq7
There is a psychological effect called "Choice-supportive bias" which I find
sometimes explains the positions that people take when describing CS degrees.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choice-supportive_bias>
------
lemonysnicket
I think it should be noted that pius is an MIT alum (in EE & CS) so is
obviously biased here.
------
honne
We should not discount formal education. Reason:
[http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/transcriptions/EWD06xx/EW...](http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/transcriptions/EWD06xx/EWD690.html)
------
callmeed
I dropped out of a top-ranked (undergrad) cs program my senior year (to work
on my startup, natch). This was in '99/'00, and a lot of my classmates who
graduated took .com jobs in the valley. A lot of them ended of getting laid
off, so I don't regret leaving.
I would say some of what I learned in school has been helpful at my startup
(OOP, testing/qa, and team stuff). But probably more of what I do day-to-day
comes from independent learning, trial and error, and experience.
------
zandorg
I took Software Development because it had an AI minor. I didn't take Formal
Systems, because of my AI, which made things easier. I also learned Scheme in
the CS lesson, which led me to Lisp.
But now, I'm sure I use skills learned from the course, even if I didn't get a
job out of it.
This University was BCS accredited, which means a lot in the UK. Unrelated,
but I met the at-the-time President of the BCS at a conference in 2003.
~~~
gaius
_which means a lot in the UK_
Really? In 12 years experience I've yet to encounter any situation in which
the BCS was even slightly relevant. Everyone who actually needs/cares about
CEng status goes to the IEEE instead.
------
nazgulnarsil
in line with what axod mentions: as a young field, software engineering is
still pretty meritocratic. That is, the only standard a software engineer is
held up to is if his code gets the job done. All fields start off this way,
but over time formal institutions grow up around them. Eventually, just as
there is an American Psychological Association, I expect there to be an
American Software Association. When this happens it tends to create new ways
in which you can be successful in the field. Just as not all (or even most) of
the members of the American Psychological Association are good practicing
psychologists.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Making Sense of Misery: The Dialect Notebooks of a Teenage Breton Farm Servant - benbreen
https://manyheadedmonster.wordpress.com/2015/08/10/making-sense-of-misery-the-dialect-notebooks-of-a-teenage-breton-farm-servant/
======
jnbiche
Regarding the Gallo word "ennuyail", which the writer describes as being often
translated as "boredom", I'm surprised he doesn't reach for the French cognate
"ennuis", which is often translated as "troubles". Indeed, the word "troubles"
seems to fit Virginie Desgranges' situation very well, and is probably what
she had in mind when she used that term in her native Gallo.
~~~
fapjacks
Interesting. I had thought the same thing.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Online Map Leads Archaeologist to Maya Discovery - pseudolus
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/08/science/archaeology-lidar-maya.html
======
lightedman
This is almost the same way I hunt minerals, excepting I use LANDSAT and ASTER
data overlaid with MRDS records, USGS geological units, Public Land Survey
System, magnetic anomalies and gravity anomalies.
Last weekend I found a major agate deposit, very gorgeous white agate mixed
with amethyst.
I'm the maintainer of the Google Earth LANDSAT and ASTER data access.
Unofficially, the actual maintainer no longer works with the USGS so I've
taken it upon myself to keep the dataset available and up to date.
------
devb
If you're interested in lidar data for the United States, the USGS has a great
tool online:
[https://apps.nationalmap.gov/3depdem/](https://apps.nationalmap.gov/3depdem/)
I've used it to map old quarries and other sites in my area.
New Hampshire has an ongoing project to map stone walls using lidar:
[http://www.granit.unh.edu/resourcelibrary/specialtopics/ston...](http://www.granit.unh.edu/resourcelibrary/specialtopics/stonewalls/)
~~~
hanoz
Here's a map I made for the UK, well, England and Wales...
[https://houseprices.io/lab/lidar/map](https://houseprices.io/lab/lidar/map)
~~~
ghostbrainalpha
How is that being used in the functioning of your website?
Or was it just a fun thing you were playing around with on a hidden page?
~~~
hanoz
The latter really. It's a side project within a side project.
~~~
bainsfather
Hanoz - can you give some info on the coverage of the lidar data?
From viewing your map, it seems ~ 70% of England is covered at 1m resolution.
Is the other 30% covered by different resolutions or are there some areas not
covered at all? Any idea what the Environment Agency's thinking is? (e.g. some
areas hit by 2015 Boxing Day floods are not covered at 1m).
(I'm maybe interested in using their data, depending on what the coverage is).
Thanks.
------
pbhjpbhj
There's an open-data win here.
Also a technology win in that sites that have had digs still revealed new
archaeology with lidar mapping (aeroplane and drone).
Presumably we have enough tech now that the Dr who found the 27 new sites can
train an ML algorithm to recognise sites and buildings (and do metrological
analysis automatically?)? Is there a generalised image analysis system for
aerial imagery that catalogues buildings/roads/ruins/foliage/etc.?
~~~
maxerickson
Training data is an issue. Microsoft released some datasets of buildings in
North America (125 million footprints). Later, they decided to use the same
technology to generate building footprints in Uganda and Tanzania:
[https://blogs.bing.com/maps/2019-09/microsoft-
releases-18M-b...](https://blogs.bing.com/maps/2019-09/microsoft-
releases-18M-building-footprints-in-uganda-and-tanzania-to-enable-ai-assisted-
mapping)
They needed different training data to cope with the different landscapes.
Facebook has faced similar challenges trying to use ML to generate road
centerlines for OpenStreetMap.
------
lelima
Maya mia!
------
bristleworm
Here's the text without paywall:
[https://web.archive.org/web/20191009015429/https://www.nytim...](https://web.archive.org/web/20191009015429/https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/08/science/archaeology-
lidar-maya.html)
~~~
joshspankit
Didn’t work for me. Caveat: I’m already at the limit.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
DHS Launches Smart City Sensor Pilot in St. Louis – Nextgov - rbanffy
https://www.nextgov.com/emerging-tech/2019/08/dhs-launches-smart-city-sensor-pilot-st-louis/159517/
======
andrerm
“I’m sensitive to it,” >Speicher said. “I don’t know the scale or scope at
this point in time but I don’t see it as being fundamentally different than
our other experiments in the sense of ensuring that we can evaluate the tech
without any exposure or concerns with privacy-related data.”
He is "sensitive" to privacy but he doesn't even know the scale or the scope.
In the big data (data harvesting) era privacy is never priority. Always comes
in second or third place
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Apple betrays the iPhone's business hopes - trezor
http://tech.yahoo.com/news/infoworld/20090915/tc_infoworld/91723
======
jasongullickson
_"But how does anyone know Snow Leopard won 't have a similar breakdown in the
future, if not for encryption then for something else?"_
Given that the limitation (the ability to handle on-device encryption) only
affects pre-3GS phones I would guess that it's a performance thing and
therefore not an issue on the desktop.
This article is very hard to follow in that the author will reverse position
each paragraph, in one condemning Apple for releasing something that is not
secure and in the next complaining when non-secure functionality is
eliminated.
The Palm Pre is mentioned as an alternative but no evidence is given to
indicate the same problem doesn't exist on that platform as well, and it would
be interesting to know if other remote-exchange-access devices (webmail,
blackberry, etc.) provide client or device-side encryption of local files.
~~~
pyre
> _This article is very hard to follow in that the author will reverse
> position each paragraph, in one condemning Apple for releasing something
> that is not secure and in the next complaining when non-secure functionality
> is eliminated._
He's saying that Apple betrayed trust by implementing secure feature
insecurely (while claiming that it was working correctly) and when they
decided to actually do something about it, they just quietly pulled out the
rug from under their users. There was no Apple announcement or apology. Just a
checklist item burying deep in a list of changes in an OS update. That's why
he says 'double betrayal.'
~~~
jasongullickson
Did Apple explicitly claim that they were encrypting the stored files?
~~~
tvon
It sounds like the iPhone was telling the Exchange servers on the protocol
level that it supported encryption. That's what I'm getting from this article
anyway.
~~~
jasongullickson
I fear we're both working from second (or third)-hand information here and
it's time to do some homework to find out the truth, but let me add this one
thought.
This may sound like a stretch, and Apple themselves have decided that it's not
sufficient, but while the files themselves my not be encrypted the filesystem
of the iPhone itself is protected from all but deliberate (and possibly
illegal) fiddling by third-parties. In this way it's not completely dishonest
for the iPhone's exchange client to report to the Exchange server that the
local files are secured.
Like I said it's a stretch, but perhaps the original implementation wasn't
pure malice/ignorance on Apple's part.
------
numair
This is actually a pretty major credibility issue within the enterprise space,
and one that Apple should move to address quickly. (Not that I think they'll
do that, since they are busy selling videogames...)
~~~
culturestate
In all honesty, everyone in corporate IT knew damn well that iPhones did not
support hardware encryption until the 3GS. Why do you think Schiller made such
a big deal out of it during the keynote ("The #1 request from business users
has been hardware encryption..." or something like that)?
This is yet one more in a string of under-researched, hysterical articles from
InfoWorld that are making that magazine the tech equivalent of US! Weekly.
~~~
kwantam
You're not disagreeing with what the article said. The article claimed
(rightly or not, I cannot comment) that the iPhone software claimed to the
Exchange server that it did support encryption, then just didn't encrypt
anything.
I don't believe for a second that "everyone in corporate IT" knew this and yet
allowed their users to connect with iPhones and endanger the security of the
network.
Again, I don't know that the article's claims are accurate, but your comment
clearly does not clash with the aforementioned claims.
~~~
DrJokepu
As a Microsoft fanboy it's hard for me to acknowledge this, but I think there
is a bit of a problem here on Exchange side's as well. If I unerstand
correctly, it asks the device if it supports on-device encryption of data and
then trusts that the device claims the truth. I think the problem with this
approach is that the security of the network is no longer in the hands of the
network's administrators, even though they might have the reason to believe so
since they have set up Exchange to enforce on-device encryption even though it
can't possibly enforce that in all cases and as the iPhone example shown it,
this is not just a theoretical problem.
~~~
dkarl
It prevents honest mistakes. Here, somebody wasn't honest. I wonder what will
happen to the guy at Apple who made the decision to set the "Yes, we're
encrypted!" bit. (Probably he'll be forced to fire whoever he issued the order
to. Poor guy!)
~~~
Kaizyn
Why? Apple will just fix the bug or have their sales reps say they're sorry
and fix the bug. End of story.
------
jsz0
"How many businesses will revisit their iPhone support now that they know
Apple shipped and promoted a product as fit for business only to later find
that the device had a major security flaw? "
Probably not many. Many products, including ones never patched without a paid
upgrade, have had known security flaws. Including products like Windows,
Exchange and Office. Hasn't stopped their acceptance as industry standard
tools has it? In terms of how it effects the iPhone enterprise user base we
should consider a couple facts:
iPhone OS 3.0 was released at the same time as the iPhone 3GS hardware (June
19th 2009)
iPhone OS 2.x did not support Exchange.
So I think you can make a reasonable case that before June 19th 2009 very few
of these encryption-required companies were buying iPhones since they simply
didn't support Exchange. Post June 19th 2009 how many companies were buying
non-GS models? We could further sub-divide this based on the discovery of the
encryption loop hole which you would hope any of these encryption-required
companies were aware of. So by my crude calculations I think there is probably
a month period where companies may have been buying non-GS iPhones with an
expectation of pure encryption-required support.
~~~
trezor
_iPhone OS 2.x did not support Exchange. So I think you can make a reasonable
case that before June 19th 2009 very few of these encryption-required
companies were buying iPhones since they simply didn't support Exchange._
This is factually incorrect. I've been using the Exchange integration on the
iPhone since fall 2008.
Granted, as this article shows, Apple has been reporting false information to
Exchange, but the Exchange support has been there.
------
mildweed
Not to mention the tethering loophole is gone in 3.1 too.
~~~
eelco
Still works fine here.
------
skwiddor
echo 'here''s your problem'' | {
apple
exchange
}
hmm
------
pmorici
Why does Microsoft even include a client encryption check at all shouldn't it
be up to the businesses buying these end user devices to check how the data is
being stored?
This is like the don't "copy bit" for DRM if you don't follow it it doesn't
matter. Apple never said their device supported on device encryption that I
heard so why are all of these businesses suddenly surprised.?
~~~
StrawberryFrog
_Apple never said their device supported on device encryption_
Actually, their software made exactly that claim, and falsely, if I read the
article correctly.
~~~
pmorici
Maybe it's a trickery of language. Apple said they "supported Exchange" so you
could read your email. There was never any claim they supported encryption on
the client. Maybe a lot of businesses _assumed_ they did.
~~~
rdrimmie
If the article is accurate, then the device itself claimed that it supported
on-device encryption when it communicated with Exchange.
I don't know about the marketing materials, but for the past year, the
software itself has made the claim.
~~~
pmorici
Well yeah, but does that really _mean_ anything? The PalmPre 'claims' to be an
iPod so it can work with iTunes. Is anyone saying Palm is engaging in false
marketing because of that?
~~~
StrawberryFrog
_Is anyone saying Palm is engaging in false marketing because of that_
Why bring marketing into it?
_Well yeah, but does that really mean anything?_
All that phrase says to me is "you're technically right, but I'm going to
adjust my value system until it doesn't matter to me"
e.g:
Person 1: You said you'd love me forever!
Person 2: Well yeah, but does that really mean anything?
~~~
pmorici
Because the author of the article implies that Apple lied in it's marketing of
the iPhone because it didn't actually support encryption. There are two issues
here that the article mixes.
1) What Apple says the phone supported via product literature, aka marketing.
2) What the iPhone software does to implement exchange support.
Misrepresenting #1 is a crime that the FTC or some government body could fine
them for. #2 on the other hand companies do all of the time to make their
devices work with proprietary software. This article is implying a marketing
lie while describing what is a software compatibility hack or perhaps an
honest bug. Either way saying "I simply can't count on Apple to do the right
thing." is way melodramatic.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
CryptDB - Encrypted MySQL - pelle
http://css.csail.mit.edu/cryptdb/
======
pelle
Many of the techniques can be done at application level. A great example of
this that most of us already use in the database is the hashed password.
Wayner's translucent databases book is one of those classic DB works that
should be on every dev's bookshelf.
I'm not affiliated with Peter Wayner at all but I've added a separate story to
get the word out about his work:
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3373947>
But to see what is really unique about CryptDB see this paper:
[http://people.csail.mit.edu/nickolai/papers/raluca-
cryptdb.p...](http://people.csail.mit.edu/nickolai/papers/raluca-cryptdb.pdf)
We already have a way of checking equality and indexing data safely using
digests.
They have come up with similar techniques for ordering encrypted data,
performing calculations on encrypted data and doing full text search on
encrypted data.
These are all quite amazingly useful to me even though there are definite
drawbacks. Eg. an encrypted value that you want to provide calculations on is
stored in a 2048 field. But there are definitely great applications for it
where it would be worth it.
I am still trying to understand what benefit their DET and JOIN constructs
have over just using say a sha256 digest. But I have only skimmed the paper so
far.
It would be interesting to see if this can be setup on an ec2 instance
proxying towards an RDS instance. I don't from the outset see why not.
~~~
RobAtticus
The DET construct (and this might apply to the JOIN as well, I don't remember)
is most useful with symmetric key encryption since then you can use in inside
one of their "onions". You couldn't peel off the DET layer to get more
functionality if it was stored as a digest, since those are only one-way.
------
digitalsushi
30 degrees off-topic, but sqlite was extended to support encryption.
<http://sqlcipher.net/>
It has been a fascinating evolution personally to write software that creeps
on the border of sqlite not being quite enough. (Which probably speaks to the
design, but still, it seems like a rite of passage).
------
mike-cardwell
The link is a bit light on information, so I cloned the repo and pasted the
README file from it here:
<https://pastee.org/323xe>
Basically, from the looks of it, it seems to run as a proxy inbetween your
client software and the MySQL database.
~~~
alexchamberlain
There are 3 publications listed... not that I read them...
~~~
mike-cardwell
Yes. Three detailed papers in PDF format. The front page needs a summary of
what it actually is though, and the README file provides that information
quickly and efficiently, whilst the website doesn't.
------
conformal
i guess it's useful to keep this data from a db admin, but whoever admins the
server that encrypts the data must have access to the encryption key(s).
it does further restrict who can access data which is good and it seems to
come at a serious cost in complexity. if your db admin is bleeding company
data i think your problems are just beginning...
~~~
RobAtticus
Actually, your first statement is not true. They also present a multi-user
mode, where the keys are generated by a user's password when they login. The
keys only remain active while the user is logged in, so if somebody gets a
hold of your proxy only those users data is vulnerable. Although, I will
admit, the paper seems to assume an attacker only gets a small attack window
(I believe) and hasn't just installed something that monitors the proxy
indefinitely.
~~~
Canada
The point you raise about attackers monitoring the proxy for a long time is
important.
My understanding is that CryptDB offers no protection from attackers who sit
between the proxy and the web server. Obviously the web server (or other
client) must deal with plaintext, otherwise application software would require
changes. The authors of CryptDB assert in no uncertain terms that this is a
drop in solution that requires zero application changes, therefore the proxy
must do all the work.
The idea is to run the proxy on a different machine than the database, thus
allowing the maintenance of the database server's hardware, OS, and RDBMS
software to be outsourced without providing access to your data. No amount of
monitoring of traffic between the proxy and the RDBMS should matter.
The weakest part of this system is that is appears to store the data in the
database with different types of encryption that allow for various operations
to be performed on the cipher text. I think that anyone who controls the
database system can obtain some of the weaker cipher texts of the data and
possibly break them.
I really can't be sure until I test it out... I'm kinda disappointed that it
doesn't come with quick instructions to get it going on postgres.
------
ihaveyourbuns
Nice try MIT, but I don't really see this useful in the real world. Typically
data that needs to be encrypted must be accessed by system processes to make
any application useful. For example you want to encrypt the contact email, but
you want to send automatic alerts to that email or a system needs to do an
automatic credit card payment. Those are hard to do when you need the users
password to decrypt the data.
~~~
sirclueless
You're thinking at the wrong level. The password that encrypts a user's credit
card data is almost certainly not the password a customer logs in with. It's
some highly controlled password that only some privileged authentication
server knows.
The goal is to reduce the attack surface, and prevent incidental discovery of
data. For example, I could set up a server that manages high security
passwords and only grant access to a select few trusted people. I have to
carefully audit how that server gets used, and who can use it, but I can let
any old DBA mess around with all my encrypted data. I can throw it on any old
server, I could outsource it to some cloud hosting company, it doesn't matter.
That's a huge win in some industries. The only thing I need to trust now are
the servers with credentials and the CryptDB software itself, I don't need to
care about the data itself.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Dell's new XPS 13 has a stunning edge-to-edge display - sz4kerto
http://www.theverge.com/2015/1/6/7501385/dell-xps-13-2015-edition-announced-at-ces-2015
======
davidw
I wonder if we'll see a new Linux version based on this, akin to this one?
[http://www.dell.com/us/business/p/xps-13-linux/pd](http://www.dell.com/us/business/p/xps-13-linux/pd)
I have that and love it. Better battery life would be awesome, though.
~~~
peatmoss
Was just wondering the same thing. I would love to leave my current 2 device
setup (iPad for reading journal articles, which I do a lot; MacBook Air 11 for
everything else). The screen on the MBA isn't good enough for long reading
sessions and the iPad doesn't do enough to take over as a computer or even
remote access terminal.
A 13" QHD machine with tiny bezel seems quite nice if it supports Linux out of
the box...
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: What should I do with the domain linuxtablet.com - chovy
I picked it up recently and want to build some sort of news site for the linux tablet devices.
======
readme
301 redirect to [https://www.microsoft.com/en-
us/surface](https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface)
~~~
chovy
I may be old fashioned, but as someone who went through the dotcom crash I
will never buy Microsoft.
------
rs23296008n1
1\. Article with list of linux tablet devices.
2\. collection of notes around each device for installing. What works / what
doesn't.
3\. ...profit?
~~~
chovy
Yeah, that's sort of what I'm thinking. I guess I need a good review site for
linux tablets.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Google from the Command Line - madisonmay
https://github.com/madisonmay/Scripting/blob/master/google
======
docon
This seems very cool. I'm a bit new to this though and have no clue how to go
about installing it. If that could be clarified I'm sure I'd love the feature.
~~~
madisonmay
Sure thing! Sorry I didn't notice your message earlier. It's nothing more than
a python script, so if you're on linux and you have google-chrome installed
you're good to go (python is installed by default). All you need to do to
install it is add the script to a folder in your system path. '/usr/bin' is a
common choice. Then restart any terminal windows you already had open, and
you're ready to use the script.
Windows isn't currently supported, but if you're a windows user and have an
interest in using the script I'd be glad to whip up a windows version.
Usage: $ google search terms (no quotes necessary)
Examples:
Search google maps for New York City
$ google -maps New York City
Search google images for cats
$ google -images cats
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Does Apple's use of famous stars in ads show weakness? - miles
http://news.cnet.com/8301-17852_3-57450066-71/does-apples-use-of-famous-stars-in-ads-show-weakness/?part=rss&subj=news&tag=readMore
======
valuegram
Of course it doesn't show weakness. It MAY show that there are some internal
cultural changes going on at Apple, but I'm not even convinced of that. Let us
not forget the "Think Different" campaign from the late 90s, which featured
famous people from Frank Sinatra to Pablo Picasso.
------
k-mcgrady
No. They've used celebrities in ads before and they even released a 'U2' iPod.
They were just trying something different.
------
bpaluzzi
How soon we forget... <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQmK1CnwOUI>
------
jere
I'm trying to imagine a demographic that exclaims: "I love that John Malkovich
guy. Wait, what's this... sear-ee?"
------
xam
No. -Betteridge
~~~
protomyth
They did it for the iPod, why not its replacement.
I swear I am going to write a rumor / stupid article bot for Apple news and
make a fortune on link bait. If you see the "by protomyth" then you know I
actually did it.
~~~
madrona
Apple rumor Markov chains. Oh, that would be hilarious.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
The Real Silicon Valley - jfornear
http://jfornear.co/the-real-silicon-valley/
======
cabinguy
Bah Humbug (please excuse me, it's just a seasonal expression). While I can
feel your pain, this story has nothing to do with SV - it's the story of an
entrepreneur. The same story exists in every state in the U.S. and every major
city (and most small ones) in the world. Entrepreneurship is very hard.
I'm 41 y/o and bootstrapped my first internet company at 24. I owned a nice
home, a beautiful vacation (lake) home, a big office building, 2 Mercedes Benz
(wife's SUV, my car) & an awesome FICO score before I was 29. It all went away
(except for my primary home) by the time I was 35.
As entrepreneurs we believe that the charts will always go up and to the right
(we can't help it) - but they don't.
This year, after TEN (10) F'ING YEARS of working on what everyone in SV would
label a little "life style business," we hit $1M+ in revenue. I am confident
we will hit $2M+ next year and $100M eventually. Our company is debt free and
my co-founder (and best friend since kindergarten) own 100% of the company.
My point: It's not easy. We have been working very, very hard for TEN (10)
F'ING YEARS on this thing. I lost almost everything along the way...but I
never, ever stopped believing in what we were building. When you hear those
billionaires claim that "perseverance" is the key to success - listen to them,
they are telling you the truth.
~~~
jseliger
>I owned a nice home, a beautiful vacation (lake) home, a big office building,
2 Mercedes Benz (wife's SUV, my car) [. . .] It all went away (except for my
primary home) by the time I was 35.
One lesson here might be to not buy the fancy, expensive stuff and the
lifestyle that goes with it. I bet things would've been a lot smoother with
fewer gee-gaws and more cash in the bank.
~~~
sliverstorm
Yes, ideally you should earn as much money as possible, and spend as little as
possible. Money only does you any good when you don't spend it.
~~~
arethuza
Though, if you never do _anything_ with your money then it's pretty pointless.
~~~
sliverstorm
That's what I was attempting to sarcastically point out :)
~~~
arethuza
Sorry, I'm British so I have to turn my sarcasm detector off to read HN!
------
nodesocket
Jesse,
I completely feel your pain. I moved up to San Francisco the previous June
with the grand vision of building out my team, raising a round of investment
and building my PaaS for hosting node.js apps (NodeSocket) to something really
special. I left a cushy director level job in San Diego and left a core group
of good friends as well. I simply packed up everything in my car and made the
drive up. The first couple of months I stayed on friends couches and did
AirBnB, essentially living out of my suitcase, and hacking all day and night.
The trough of sorrow is deep, with extreme peaks and valleys. One day I was
talking with Sequoia Capital and first tier angel investors flying high and
optimistic, the next day, they are all passing, and I realized that I have
burned through my entire savings.
The thing about startups is they are born easy, but die a very long and drawn-
out death. I recently just came to terms, and announced that NodeSocket is
shutting down (<http://blog.nodesocket.com/shutting-down>) to pursue a new
opportunity Commando.io (<http://commando.io>).
Keep with it, take some time off from startups and entrepreneurship. Doing a
startup is the hardest thing most people will ever do.
~~~
VexXtreme
Why move to San Francisco? One of the benefits of living in this day and age
is that you can start a business from pretty much anywhere in the world. Sure,
it is presumably easier to acquire VC, talent and deal with general logistics
if you're located in the valley but still... It's pretty obvious that leaving
your job, friends, moving to a different city and living off your savings is a
high risk move vs staying where you are and working from there. Not knocking
you or anything (I don't know your entire story), I'm just saying.
If I were to start a company now, I'd probably stay right where I am and keep
my job until I saw a level of success with my new project.
~~~
untog
I think he answered the question- he was looking for funding. You can do a
great many things remotely these days, but investors want face to face
meetings, so you have to go to tech hubs to get them.
~~~
fudged71
Seems like a flight would be more appropriate than moving and losing your
friends.
------
SeoxyS
If you're buying into the Silicon Valley hype, and then get disappointed,
you're doing it wrong. Silicon Valley is not a place that's amazing a first,
and then awful once you fail. It's simply a place that happens to have the
highest concentration and best resources for building tech companies.
Ultimately, though, surviving Silicon Valley comes down to one simple rule:
don't build stupid shit. Work on a _business_ , get revenues from the start,
and don't fall into the trap of trying to build an Instagram.
Frankly, most of the stuff everybody here is working on is idiotic. The
business models & grand vision plans people come up are ridiculous. With a
little more care for building things that are actually useful and that people
will pay for, we'd have much less "blew my life savings trying to make a
social network for pets and am now homeless and girlfriend-less" stories.
~~~
agorabinary
I could not agree more. I wonder how much of the SV environment is created
from the trickle down investments of legitimately good ideas --- that is, a
Facebook spawning thousands of millionaires, some of which happen to invest in
their brother's friend's silly idea not out of any rational analysis, but from
just being young and stupid and lucky enough to grab up a few early FB shares.
Furthermore, consider the difference in building a startup and building a
typical brick and mortar business. Think of how simple the thought was to
create a social network where users choose friends to create a distinct social
circle. Or Drew Houston allegedly conceiving of Dropbox by repeatedly
forgetting his USB drive in college. Very many SV startups build themselves
off of some eureka moment that, being based on the internet, requires minimal
investment, effort, connections, and reputation to establish early stage.
Then, as long as it is a good idea, investment and employees flood in. Compare
this to the enormous barriers of entry extant in a traditional brick and
mortar with the bank loans and industry connections and disparate business
resources, and combined with a barely-out-of-college aged potential CEO with
or without good ideas. You get two entirely different standards of
discrimination. It almost seems sometimes like SV considers bad ideas as a
normal state of affairs, as a "learning experience" to future brilliance. Fail
to succeed? Most successful startup founders hit it right on their debut---
why? Because they have a mentality of, "Should I do this?", and not merely,
"Can I do this?".
I'm not saying low barriers to entry are necessarily a bad thing. It just
seems like either there are one, a lot of fools with grand visions or two,
ulterior-minded entrepreneurs looking to pad their resume or impress their
friends with some social networking rip-off that only cost them $10k to build.
Bustling, metropolitan environments often offer that billion dollar jackpot or
Hollywood walk of fame, but require in turn a more demanding degree of
discrimination to tell that shiny metal from mere fool's gold.
------
noname123
Why be depressed? If you are young and a programmer making 100K at 25, party
with your hipster friends and sock away 40K in savings every year. You'll end
up with 200K by 30, not a cool billion dollar but with 6% muni-bonds, you
suddenly have tax-free interest income of equivalent of $1.2 million at
regular 1% CD rate.
Work on interesting projects that you want to work on. Do some traveling. Go
back to grad school for fun. Learn a new language, sport or talk to girls. Go
to your favorite startup or software company website and click on the mugshot
of the guy who's in 40's in blue dres-shirt, is that who you want to be when
you want to be?
If no, don't get on the VC rat-race; it's just as soul-crushing as the
investment banker's rat-race except less lucrative.
~~~
fearless
Everyone knows startups are not the optimal economically rational way to make
money. But to an entrepreneur, living off 6% muni bond interest is profoundly
uninteresting, and dare I say soul crushing.
Repeat after me: If you think it's only about the money, you're missing the
point.
And even if it is all about the money, most 25 year olds would jump at a 1%
chance to make $10 million over a $100% chance to make $200K. Not
mathematically rational, but if everyone was rational there would be no
outliers.
~~~
noname123
Better way to make money is to take out a personal loan for 100K, same
opportunity cost of two years of programmer-salary on startups. Buy out of the
money options on small-cap pharmacuetical facing FDA decisions, you have the
ability to also make $10 million overnight with 30% success. Go for insider-
tips to max out on your success.
~~~
arbuge
Wouldn't the insider tips be illegal insider trading?
~~~
Alex3917
IANAL, but I don't think it would in this case. Insider trading generally
applies to using private information held by the company. But in this case
what you're looking for is information from the CRO or FDA.
------
jenoneal
Hey Jesse, great post though I'm sorry to hear about your startup. If you need
a place to crash, I have a spare room for friends who are starting companies,
folding companies or just passing through the Valley. Feel free to get in
touch anytime.
In the meantime, thought you might like this quote from a piece Michael
Arrington wrote a while back:
"Some of the richest people I know aren’t really entrepreneurs. They worked at
HP and then moved to Netscape when it got hot. They made a fortune and then
jumped to Google and made another fortune. And now they’re jumping to
Facebook.
They may be very good engineers, or sales people, or marketing, or execs. But
they ain’t entrepreneurs. They’re just resume gardening and they’re really no
different from everyone else.
I don’t care if you’re a billionaire. If you haven’t started a company, really
gambled your resume and your money and maybe even your marriage to just go
crazy and try something on your own, you’re no pirate and you aren’t in the
club."
<http://techcrunch.com/2010/10/31/are-you-a-pirate/>
~~~
neilk
You hear that, loser marriage-having people?
~~~
zainny
The title of the article should really be "Are you a Broken Human Being?"
------
oscargrouch
I quit my TI job, lost my beautiful fiancee, lost my friends and came back to
live with my parents, and all of this after thirty.. Im pretty sociable guy..
and had a very rich and good social life before all this..
Im living in Brazil, without access to this garden of VC funds you guys have
in the Valley..
But i live in front of a beautiful beach, where i go out everyday to run, and
let some stress behind me..
Im still here.. working.. penyless.. and you know what keep me moving?
is not the money i can make.. (i dont even know if this dream im pursuing will
make me any rich).. but the simple fact to be able to live working on my
dream.. have the possibility to not only change my life, but also the life of
many others for better.. make me go everyday.. believe, work hard..
i dont know if i will succed.. but i know that the most important thing in
life is to try.. to make diference.. to make this place better.. im sure
theres no payment better than this..
You see, the right amount of money that we all really need, is enough to give
us freedom to do what we thing we should..
So i think you need to get another sort of payment, while you are (dollar)
broke.. you must be payed by your own dreams.. this may look stupid.. but when
we are in the edge of our lifes, because we believe in something.. we have the
ultimate freedom.. a freedom that not only can change our lifes.. but make a
wave of new unthinkable possibilities become reality
Im sure that when all this im passing now has gone.. i will remember this time
with joy..
Try to imagine your future you, talking with your present you.. the future you
are happy? what he got to tell you..
Im here man, im a warrior and i wont give up...
If you think you have made a mistake then, go on .. and maybe latter you will
try again something else.. and succed tremendously.. but deep inside we all
know if we are in the right path.. Your heart will tell you this everyday..
and if thats is the case.. go on man! the world are made by the hands of the
ones who didnt give up. The ones who dare to dream..
Life for game changers are hard.. and they only succed because they are
harder.
Its a wonderful time for you to discover your real you, and what you capable
of.. you will probably surprise yourself.. No better payment than this :)
Good luck in your path!
~~~
braco_alva
This is exactly how I feel, Im in Guatemala, where we don't have much access
to VC funds either.
A year has passed since we started, and we still don't have a steady income,
but it is worth it, totally worth it, when I realize that I am doing exactly
what I want to do, even if the odds are against me, I know I have to keep
trying.
~~~
oscargrouch
I think whatever we do, we should avoid the trap of being payed to be
unhappy.. we pass the most part of our living time sleeping and almost all the
rest working (with little to something else, family, fun, rest..)
We should have fun in what we work, in what we do.. trying to be excited just
for the profit of it, wont do..
things like; "I Will work for 3 to 5 years on this thing and then sell
it(because i cant stand working on it) and buy a boat, put some chicks on it
with champagne and travel the world with my fortune" wont make anybody stood
still in harsh times.
faith is the engine of soul and in the end you are what you believe. by
corrupting and selling what you believe, you will become void, empty, bitter..
It starts from there, money or success is a consequence
------
jacoblyles
And nobody will ever advise you that the large cost and huge risk might not be
worth it because then they would have to admit the same thing to themselves.
Have you ever met anybody that works on the weekend, even when the startup
doesn't need them to, just because they don't know what else to do?
There are incredibly amazing things happening in Silicon Valley. And also lots
of people burning their lives away for little reason or return. Keep your eyes
open to both sides of the ledger is the best advice I can give. Be sure that
what you are doing is something you truly love, and not just something you
want to love or want to portray that you love for the benefit of others. And
it's okay to give up and/or take a break.
~~~
eric-hu
> Be sure that what you are doing is something you truly love, and not just
> something you want to love or want to portray that you love for the benefit
> of others.
Can you expand on this? How do you ever know? Whether I love what I do has
been one of my existential questions for the last decade, and why I didn't
immediately follow through with my CS degree out of college.
I feel like I can never know whether I'm doing something I "truly" love...but
I'd like to be wrong
~~~
jacoblyles
It's fine to do something that you don't "love". But you better damn well love
it if you're going to sacrifice your financial, emotional, and physical health
for it like the typical Silicon Valley founder.
------
tarr11
It'd be great if the author wrote about something _specific_. This article
contains little detail about anything that actually happened.
~~~
Wilduck
Agreed. I read this:
> What Hacker News doesn't prepare you for, however, is when a competitor gets
> acquired for a billion dollars, work-life imbalance, and getting dumped by
> your World of Warcraft girlfriend.
and was pretty interested. It sounds like the start of two pretty interesting
stories. Instead of actually telling these stories, however, the post
descended into platitudes. I'm beginning to feel that I should be flagging
posts that are as meatless as this one.
~~~
zacharyz
From his site it sounds like he was a designer working on picplz and app.net.
My guess is the competitor he was talking about was instagram.
~~~
fudged71
To me, Instagram (a competitor) being bought by Facebook is a huge
opportunity. Just look at all the people "leaving Instagram" right now due to
predictable changes in their TOS.
------
zaidf
_The real Silicon Valley will never be televised._
I feel this way as well but I am curious as to why. My reasoning is that the
incentives for entrepreneurs to swap dirty laundry for publicity isn't a
worthwhile exchange for most entrepreneurs. I hear about how startups are
extremely boring but I think people overestimate how much "fun" other
professions are and how television works. It doesn't matter if 90% of a start-
up is writing code like a robot; what matters is the other 10% and I think we
have plenty of true, crazy stories to go around if founders had much of an
incentive to play them out on air. I sure don't. I don't want my B2B customers
nor investors to judge me _only_ from the 10% dramatic part of my life.
------
spdy
Sometimes Silicon Valley looks from the outside like Las Vegas but for
programmers. Make a billion dollars with an idea you have no clue about how to
monetize in the first place.
------
timjahn
If this is what the "real Silicon Valley" is like, this explains why I've
never had the burning desire to move there and build a company there instead
of Chicago.
That and the realization that there's more to life.
------
phatbyte
I advice everyone on HN to view this video:
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nif01WZ9aI>
Maybe this won't change anything, but there's more in life than just getting
funded with millions of dollars. I feel pretty bad for people who get
depressed or worse because they didin't made it in SV...that's so superficial
about life and things in general. Do we all really need millions of dollars
and IPO to be happy and be considered "successful" ? What does that even mean
?
Do what you love, that's my advice. My girlfriend is a nurse and when people
are in their dead bed, she said that the thing most people regret is not doing
what they loved, spend time with their families, going on trip around the
world. And that hospital is used mostly by high class people, with lots of
money.
~~~
martinced
My only regret on my dead bed is going to be to have make the world progress
faster than I could have.
I've writing technical books helping to share knowledge and that's the one
thing I feel the most proud about. I won't regret having brought my
contribution to sharing knowledge.
I love my family, but I also _love_ my work. I love R&D. I love trying to
create something that shall help people. I'll never ever have any regret about
moving to California (not there anymore) and worked there like crazy for
someone else's startup.
Then "success" has never been measured only by money: there are very succesful
non-profit organization out there. But people are typically working hard to
make them work too.
It's not about "making an IPO" or "getting rich". It's about "making a
difference".
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists
in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on
the unreasonable man."
~~~
phatbyte
I got nothing against people who pursue that, I speak against myself on my
first post. I also want to create something that makes a difference, I want to
generate value and create something meaningful for other. But I would never
replace my dream with all the other things I love in life. In the end the
balance will always be negative for me.
With this said, It doesn't mean I aim low on things I want to achieve, I just
thing balance is the correct path to have in life.
------
pvdm
Narcissism (Delusions of grandeur) is a psychological affliction, not a drug.
------
svachalek
Don't ever gamble more than you can afford to lose. That applies to a lot more
than just money.
------
acchow
> Technically I am now homeless and unemployed.
But if you can code, you could be in a 100k job with a 10k signing by Monday.
That's hardly "homeless".
~~~
yen223
Where are these 100k jobs that people keep talking about? Because there is no
such thing where I come from.
~~~
intellegacy
Silicon valley, Boston, and NYC are paying $100k for senior level developers.
Of course Malaysia and S.E.Asia and the rest of the world has a lower level of
salary (except perhaps Singapore).
------
mahyarm
I get the impression from your post that balls to wall burnout effort isn't
the key to success, so why do you do it that way?
------
seanlinehan
Entrepreneurship truly is a roller coaster. You constantly swing from ecstasy
to depression, sometimes on a day by day basis. The underlying truth is that
over time this cycle does not cease; it will continue in full force. However,
over time things get better. I may be an optimist, but I believe that in the
long run things always get better. One of my professors showed my class a
graph that described this effect, which I have recreated. [1] In the long run,
an entrepreneur's lows can be better than the rest of the world's highs. That
is the future we seek.
[1] <http://i48.tinypic.com/20hxbbt.jpg>
------
amirhirsch
author appears to be an expert in start-up vernacular.
------
hnriot
Real life is seldom like a tv show. I don't think this should be news to
anyone. I bet physicians don't like Grey's Anatomy either.
While I'm sorry things didn't work out for you, I don't see this as anything
to do with this area. Your story is one that is playing out all over America
in this economy.
------
peripetylabs
I read countless horror stories before launching my own startup, without
hesitation. If your goal is to do what you love, and hopefully earn a living
from it, you have my sympathy; if your goal is to get rich quick, well, that's
always been a fool's game.
------
shmerl
Sorry for off-topic but why specifically Silicon Valley? While it has many
historical technological centers and is often hyped, it's not the only
possible place to open a technological startup.
------
spitfire
So is there anywhere people outside the US could watch this silicon valley
show? I'm curious but can't find a source that doesn't block those outside the
US.
------
pla3rhat3r
The race to the "American Dream" is not a one lane road. Keep pushing. Someday
your tenacity and passion will be rewarded.
------
suyash
You need to update the photo before you speak about SV..SV !== San Francisco
------
michaelochurch
I really wish there was a way to: (a) have the autonomy and interesting work
of a startup tech founder (while a full-time technologist, not a manager) but
(b) without the extreme income variance. If your job requires you to take
personal loans, there's something wrong. I also think there are a lot of
people who have the talent but not the ability to afford the risk.
The extreme income variance is a bug, not a feature, in my opinion. I'd be
willing to sell all upside past $100 million (which would have median value of
zero, but reasonable expectancy given the autonomy I'd have) in exchange for
downside insurance, because I can't possibly imagine why I'd even want $10
billion.
~~~
dxbydt
you are looking for a rose without the thorns:) you'd be better off with a
lily ( ie. straight job at big-co/small-co, no income variance )
~~~
SatvikBeri
There's plenty of in-between. The key concept is career capital.
Career capital is basically how much a company values you. You can more or
less trade career capital for things like money, promotions, freedom, etc.
Different companies will let you trade career capital for different things.
Small startups generally grant more autonomy and less cash. Investment banks
will let you get plenty of cash, but all the career capital in the world won't
buy you autonomy.
The mistake most people make is that they don't consciously invest their
career capital. They take raises and promotions when they should really be
negotiating for more freedom and interesting projects.
If you want to love your work, figure out
1\. How to become extremely valuable and earn lots of career capital,
2\. What you want to spend it on. There is usually a constraint in your life-
feeling that you don't have enough freedom, enough cash, etc. Spend your
career capital on your biggest constraints.
~~~
michaelochurch
This is excellent advice. The question is: what should people do to acquire
career capital fast? Work hard at their assigned stuff, or invest in self-
directed labor?
I think there's something to be said for the zigzag strategy. Take finance
jobs to improve comp, and more typical tech jobs to improve autonomy and
technical knowledge. No tech company will match a $250,000 hedge fund salary,
but most will compensate "out of kind" with a higher title and more authority.
Then you do something awesome at your tech job and become qualified for a
better finance job.
The other advantage of zigzagging is that you can overstate how politically
successful you are, because you're moving into a context where people don't
know how to evaluate your signals. If you claim you were at level X in finance
when you were actually X - 2, other finance people will be able to tell based
on what you actually did and how much you know about the industry. If you
zigzag a bit, you have more control over your story. But I think there must be
limits to the efficacy of zigzagging, because lateral movement without
progress becomes damaging after a while.
~~~
SatvikBeri
_What should people do to acquire career capital fast? Work hard at their
assigned stuff, or invest in self-directed labor?_
Cal Newport wrote a book on this[1]. The short answer is "acquire rare and
valuable skills."
If you have a track record of applying NLP to massive data sets today, that
makes you extremely valuable. Combine two or more valuable, but not
necessarily complementary, skills and it makes you a unicorn.
You'll almost never acquire rare & valuable skills by doing your assigned
work. That's because entry level employees do commodity work. You might
acquire valuable skills that way, but not rare ones.
My preferred method: survey the land. Try to figure out what skills are one
notch above where you are today. Come up with a side project that's beneficial
to your employer and would teach you those skills. Depending on the level of
autonomy you have, you might be able to get that project approved as part of
your official work. A few iterations of this should put you in a position to
get a promotion or a better job.
The danger in doing something purely on the side, and not as part of the
company, is that you don't have concrete results you can show at your next
job. You might have mastered Hadoop/NLP/Machine Learning on your own, but all
things being equal I'd hire the guy who used NLP to earn his company millions
of dollars.
By the way, one of the easiest ways to get a rare and valuable skill is to aim
to be 80th percentile at two things, as opposed to 95th percentile at one
thing. My current aspiration is a strong understanding of user
interaction/psychology + a strong understanding of Machine Learning. The
combination of the two will put me in a very unique position when designing
analytic software, even if I'm not the best at either individual skill.
[1]: [http://www.amazon.com/Good-They-Cant-Ignore-
ebook/dp/B0076DD...](http://www.amazon.com/Good-They-Cant-Ignore-
ebook/dp/B0076DDBJ6/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1355927128&sr=8-2&keywords=so+good+they+can%27t+ignore+you)
~~~
michaelochurch
Good answer, for sure. The one thing that is dangerous is that it's hard to
know, when you're going off and learning "esoteric" skills, if those will be
winning horses or dead ends. A lot of people would rather max out on
enterprise Java (which has a well-studied, if commoditized, market) than take
a risk on a specialty that might be "hot" today but dead tomorrow.
The AI winter is one of the worst things to have happened to software, and the
decline of funding and even respectability of basic research has set
technology itself back 25 years, and there's a scary lesson in it, which is
that interesting, cutting-edge work can suddenly enter a funding drought.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: CSS The Right Way? - stevewilhelm
To piggy back on the recent post, 'Javascript: The Right Way?' [1], I ask the same question regarding CSS.<p>I find it very difficult to learn to do well. Any suggestions on how to go about doing so. Books, tutorials, great examples in Github, frameworks recommendations welcome.<p>[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7074307
======
pablovidal85
The best tip I can give anybody about mastering a language is "read other's
code", pick some good project or author in github (use the search engine
there) and read every line, try to understand the "character" of the language,
how is constructed and organized, instead of the looking too much at the
tokens (identifiers, statements, etc).
------
codez
Well seeing as there is those other sites, how about we just make our own??
I can put together a page and we decide which things are important to know in
CSS from opinion then when people want to disagree or contribute they can??
For example, important things IMO would be float when getting elements side by
side, and how to correctly use position.
But what else?
How to do animations is a good one I think too.
EDIT: So I created a repo for this here [https://github.com/jh3y/css-the-
right-way](https://github.com/jh3y/css-the-right-way)
EDIT: Asked for help here.
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7079505](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7079505)
------
27182818284
I'd like to know more too. I constantly feel like I am just blundering my way
through CSS until it works or I get the CSS framework of the day to work for
me. I'm at the level where I use LESS to compile to CSS, and I still feel like
I'm just like a day 0 amateur
------
chrisjlee84
[http://smacss.com/](http://smacss.com/)
------
breathesalt
I highly recommend this book: [http://www.amazon.com/Pro-CSS-HTML-Design-
Patterns/dp/159059...](http://www.amazon.com/Pro-CSS-HTML-Design-
Patterns/dp/1590598040)
------
isleyaardvark
Look up OOCSS and/or SMACSS. Twitter Bootstrap is an example of SMACSS
principles at work.
------
mattwritescode
Read others code and practise. Lots of practise.
------
franklaemmer
offtopic but: [http://www.phptherightway.com/](http://www.phptherightway.com/)
~~~
deadfall
offtopic but:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7074307](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7074307)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Amazon's internal numbers on Prime Video - edf13
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-amazon-com-ratings-exclusive/exclusive-amazons-internal-numbers-on-prime-video-revealed-idUKKCN1GR0GC
======
reaperducer
The headline makes it sound like a huge number, but when you break it down,
it's minuscule compared to traditional broadcast.
The most recent Academy Awards show was the lowest rated in a decade, and it
got 26 million people in what's called "live plus same day" which includes for
people watching on their DVR's shortly after.
That's 26 million people in just a few hours for one show in one country.
Amazon's five million came from 19 shows, "airing" across an entire year, in
however many countries have Amazon Video.
If you were to break it down by same-day viewership, Amazon's ratings are
lower than a local news show in a very small market.
I'm not criticizing Amazon, at all. I'm a paying subscriber and think it,
Netflix, and similar services are a better vision of the future than what the
broadcast and cable nets have put together. But it's way too early to tout the
death of the broadcast industry, as so many like to do.
Also, The Grand Tour is awesome.
~~~
onion2k
A better comparison is Top Gear, the BBC show that was essentially the same as
The Grand Tour. At it's absolute peak Top Gear drew live audiences of ~8
million people. When the BBC cancelled it (after Clarkson hit a producer) it
was getting audiences of ~5 million. I'm sure you could double that number
including on-demand and foreign audiences. It was a popular show.
To me these numbers show that Amazon have managed to compete _reasonably_
favourably with the BBC, which is famous for being really good at making TV
shows, within 5 years of starting to make their own content, they've built a
platform that people are willing to use to watch that content, _and_ they've
developed a model that audiences are willing to pay for. That's _huge_.
~~~
reaperducer
I think the comparison would be more accurate if we had numbers for BBC's live
viewers and those who streamed it for the rest of the year, since the Amazon
view count includes people streaming weeks and months after the program
debuted.
------
ams6110
I have Amazon Prime but rarely watch anything in the video service. I find the
UI to be horribly clunky, slow, and difficult to use. Maybe because my primary
TV device is an old Wii console, but Netflix manages to provide a much better
experience on the same device.
~~~
jschwartzi
At least it doesn't auto-play trailers like Netflix does on my PS4. I spend
very little time in their app as a result of that.
~~~
hanklazard
My GF's smart TV auto-plays next episodes, even cuts movie credits off after
just a few seconds to try to bait us into the next thing. Maybe its just me,
but I generally like to see the credits, hear the end music, etc. Rather than
actually escorting us into the next video, this UI "feature" just compels us
to shut the whole system down out of annoyance.
~~~
cpeterso
You can disable "Play next episode automatically" in your account settings on
Netflix's website:
[https://www.netflix.com/HdToggle](https://www.netflix.com/HdToggle)
The Netflix app on my smart TV honors that setting. Unfortunately, this
setting does not stop Netflix from auto-playing the video when you first
select it.
------
heartbreak
> One big winner was the motoring series “The Grand Tour,” which stars the
> former presenters of BBC’s “Top Gear.” The show had more than 1.5 million
> first streams from Prime members worldwide, at a cost of $49 per subscriber
> in its first season.
BBC handed Amazon a win on a silver platter. They didn't need a writer, they
didn't need a producer, they just bought the ones that BBC threw out. How did
Netflix miss on Andy Wilman and Jeremy Clarkson?
~~~
landonxjames
I saw rumors a few days ago that The Grand Tour has already been canceled
after the already ordered season 3. Really hope it isn't true because it is
one of the biggest draws of Prime Video for me.
~~~
ceejayoz
That rumor's coming from the Daily Mail, so I'd take it with an ocean's worth
of salt until some sort of corroboration comes out elsewhere.
------
rorykoehler
I have both Prime and netflix. I can never find anything worth watching on
prime. Netflix on the other hand is an ever replenishing repository of quality
shows.
~~~
_coveredInBees
I'm a bit surprised by that comment. I actually find Prime to have pretty good
content and typically better movies than Netflix (who's movie library has been
shrinking pretty drastically over the years).
If you haven't already watched it, I'd highly recommend Season 1 and 2 of "The
Expanse" on Prime. There are a lot of pretty great shows on there as long as
you don't rely on DC/Marvel shows for all your entertainment. Other shows that
are reasonably acclaimed are:
\- The Man in the High Castle
\- Avatar: The Last Airbender
\- The Nightmanager
\- Mr. Robot
\- Boardwalk Empire
\- Downton Abbey
\- Sneaky Pete
\- Orphan Black
\- Dr. Who
\- Veep
\- The Good Wife
\- Transparent
\- Hannibal
\- Deadwood
\- Curb your Enthusiasm
\- The Wire
\- Six Feet Under
\- The Sopranos
~~~
rorykoehler
I watched the Expanse on Netflix. It's not really that good but I had
downloaded it and was stuck on a plane.
Of the others the only two I hadn't watched a long time ago (e.g. Sopranos)
that I would consider really good are Mr. Robot & Boardwalk Empire, both of
which I had already watched elsewhere. What I like about Netflix is their
originals are top notch.
------
THE_PUN_STOPS
This is off topic, but why in the everloving eff are auto playing videos still
standard on news sites in 2018?
~~~
ams6110
If you're in Firefox, go to the _about:config_ URL and set
_media.autoplay.enabled_ to false.
------
physcab
Amazon Prime LTV is on the order of thousands of dollars per member. If they
can convert new customers to Prime for ~$100 that is pretty cheap. Of course,
media is a hit driven business, so they would have to blend the cost of all
the shows that don't do as well as their headliners.
I personally don't like Prime shows other than Man in the High Castle. And
they are increasingly pushing down other New Releases so you only see Prime
shows above the fold on TV devices (Roku etc). But I understand they are
playing the long game here and quality will probably improve. I used to
dislike most of Netflix original shows, but now theres a steady lineup that I
could watch regularly every week.
~~~
ghaff
Both Netflix and Amazon seem to have come to the decision that, lots and lots
of viewer data notwithstanding, predicting hits is really hard. (In all
fairness, Amazon and Netflix are probably also content with niche content far
more than traditional broadcast does.) So as they've established streaming
original video, they seem to have gone more for throwing lots of things
against the wall than going only for relatively surefire hits.
------
reiichiroh
Is Amazon Prime Music woefully small in the US as it seems to be in Canada? I
tried it out and its "today's top hits" contains LAST YEAR's music (Ed
Sheeran's "Shape of You" \+ "Thunder" by Imagine Dragons and John Legends "All
of You")
~~~
dangrossman
A lot of songs on the Billboard Hot 100 (most aired and streamed songs in the
past week) are over 6 months old, including "Thunder" at #19 and "Perfect" at
#2. "Today's top hits" is not "today's newest songs".
~~~
ghaff
It's small compared to paid subscription offerings (or ad-supported free tiers
of something like Spotify). Which means it basically works fine as background
music but isn't great if you want to listen to specific things, especially
current music.
------
kodablah
The headline on HN here of "Amazon.com Inc's top television shows drew more
than 5M people worldwide" is misleading and makes you think of ratings. What
it should say is "Amazon.com Inc's top television shows drew more than 5M to
sign up for Prime". The difference is important.
~~~
sctb
Thanks, we've reverted the submission title to that of the article.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: Automatic Bitcoin portfolio tracking app? - dchuk
Unless my google-fu is severely out of whack, I can't find any apps/web app that can:<p>1) Connect to my Coinbase account
2) Track my holdings and purchases (which are scheduled weekly)
3) Tell me how much overall I've made or lost<p>Does this app exist? I don't want to record transactions manually. I'm playing with Bitcoin, but because I buy weekly and the price is still changing constantly, it's difficult to actually track how much overall my net profit/loss is.
======
pilingual
Don't know if one exists, but I'm planning to launch one next week.
~~~
dchuk
Killer, anywhere I can keep an eye out for it?
~~~
pilingual
@WealtheeApp
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
The Tough Life of a Games Tester - AndreyKarpov
http://www.ign.com/articles/2012/03/29/the-tough-life-of-a-games-tester
======
nickbarone
Do you remember EA Spouse? Although it looks defunct now, the spouse, Erin
Hoffman, went on to found GameWatch[.org], which aimed to address these
issues. AFAIK, they at least curbed the worst offenses, like those that led to
the scandal, but...
If you could get enough studios to realize the important of a good QA
department, there'd at least be a niche to form a company dedicated to it,
where skilled QA could get what they deserve.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: Should startups do PR? - abarrera
I'm conducting a survey for my startup, Press42.com to see how startups interact with the press/bloggers. I would love to get the input from the HN community: http://press42.com/survey
======
nickh
See these useful posts by Daniel Tenner:
<http://swombat.com/2011/1/24/how-to-PR-firms-startups>
<http://swombat.com/2011/2/4/attention-seeking-for-startups>
------
espadagroup
A technique that I think works very well for startups is to find an api in the
area of your startup and slice and dice the data into some nice infographpic.
Serve it up to smaller blogs that love the free information. You're just
giving them what they want and building an initial relationship, if they don't
actually post your data it's fine, but they'll always be happy you sent it to
them.
Then just do it again, slicing from a different angle and present it to the
blogs again. Once you have data posted somewhere, it's time to move on to
guest posts. Use the data that was posted to ask a different blog if for your
next data slice you can exclusively present the data as a guest post. They'll
love this, though you'll need to write the article first before they actually
agree.
Rinse and repeat the system farther up the blog, local news, online news
entity, radio, TV totem pole.
~~~
abarrera
Very true! A lot of bloggers tell me it's a matter of telling a story, let it
be about data or something else :)
------
keke_ta
See. This Q&A is useful to you. [http://www.quora.com/Is-the-press-release-
really-dead?q=pres...](http://www.quora.com/Is-the-press-release-really-
dead?q=press+release+dead)
------
nickh
@VSerge, I think question #3 is meant to be interpreted as "Are you doing
either of the following?".
------
VSerge
check your Q 3, seems like the answer shouldn't be a yes/no
~~~
abarrera
You're definitely right, I just updated it.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
100 Days of Meditation - duncancarroll
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1umv8MDX3ahdybOV0iis31t34Nw0weoAOnMJ8Fqogy5o/edit
======
kozikow
If you don't have access to meditation center book "Mindfulness in plain
english" seems like not newagey introduction to the subject. It describes
Vipassana. It's almost like Zazen, but slightly different. In my understanding
Zazen is Mahayana buddhism version of Vipassana, which comes from Theravada
buddhism, but I am just a begginer so I can be horribly wrong.
I started meditating recently after reading MIPE. I'll try to find a teacher
as soon as I can. What got hooked me up was some research that it improves
cognitive performance:
[http://www.gwern.net/docs/dnb/2010-zeidan.pdf](http://www.gwern.net/docs/dnb/2010-zeidan.pdf)
. There's some evidence that long term meditation changes structure of the
brain and improves mood and attention outside of meditation practice:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_activity_and_meditation#C...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_activity_and_meditation#Changes_in_brain_due_to_prolonged_practice_of_meditation)
. This post seems like good encouragement as well:
[http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/38947/is-
prac...](http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/38947/is-practicing-
meditation-a-good-or-bad-thing-for-programmers) .
One thing which I notice the most is increased ability to deal with
distractions and staying focused on boring subjects . It is essentially what
one practices during meditation. Dealing with distractions is very important
skill for programmer: [http://blog.ninlabs.com/2013/01/programmer-
interrupted/](http://blog.ninlabs.com/2013/01/programmer-interrupted/) .
What's more it's kind of skill, that is hard to develop without active
practice. I can't think of better way of developing it than meditation.
~~~
greenyoda
"Mindfulness in Plain English" is available on-line here:
[http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma4/mpe.html](http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma4/mpe.html)
(Scroll down for the on-line version.)
------
loceng
Good stuff. Sitting still for 60-90 minutes has the purpose of eliminating the
distractions from paying attention to your body. This practice also has the
benefit of hopefully allowing the ego to settle some, and perhaps even
allowing the baseline level that the ego is engaged to be less - or start
towards that path anyhow. As you said, stress still maintains the same - it
actually will feel potentially even more vivid, though that is likely counter-
acted with the ability to process things easier. Learning other things, and
doing deeper guided meditations and breath work, like yoga nidra - is a good
way to lessen that. Physical movement, asanas - or yoga as a whole, meditation
being a part of yoga - is a good way to help physically-caused stress and
baseline stress reduce; There's a biofeedback mechanism: tight muscles tells
your mind you're stressed, you being stressed tells your muscles to be tight.
"Nice" little loop there.
~~~
duncancarroll
Thanks--I will try out Yoga; other people have also told me that it has a
similar effect.
~~~
funkjunky
my thoughts as a yoga practitioner: Yoga is, first and foremost, a meditative
practice. What separates it from sitting meditation is that the "hack" it
employs not only combines breath awareness, but an ACTIVE breath/body/mind
awareness. By moving through asanas, still using the breath as the "guide",
one's awareness becomes on breath, on muscle, on bone, on gravity, balance,
and all the subtleties of the mind and body's reactions. For example, one
begins to "feel" what it is like for the subconscious to instinctively tighten
muscles under slight distress, and learn how to gain increasing control over
these subconscious processes as one's awareness becomes ever more focused and
relaxed. Another example is one learns to feel "losing their breath" when they
have lost attention to it and their body, and are stressing themselves out.
An interesting TED talk describes the seat of awareness as a primitive network
of neurons in the brainstem and body, the network that gives one a sense of "I
am" and experiences the rest of the neurological processes.
[http://movies.netflix.com/WiMovie/70236306?strkid=1954165956...](http://movies.netflix.com/WiMovie/70236306?strkid=1954165956_0_0&trkid=222336&movieid=70236306)
If true, meditation and yoga can be thought of as techniques that
progressively still the later evolved "higher" thought processes, and turns
one's awareness back into the experiential parts of the mind. Yoga is simply a
very active and tactile meditation hack, that provides strong stimulation
responses through the nerve network that one is training to become more
actively connected.
------
Su-Shee
For those interested in the science/medical side of things:
* "Zen and the Brain" (written by a meditation practising neurologist)
* "The Buddha Brain" (about the neurological/physiological background of a couple of buddhist principles)
------
tehwalrus
In keeping with others who are mentioning / linking to books about non-new-age
meditation, try the book by the Psychologists in the mindfulness movement:
[http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mindfulness-practical-guide-
finding-...](http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mindfulness-practical-guide-finding-
frantic/dp/074995308X) (Mindfulness: A practical guide to finding peace in a
frantic world, Prof Mark Williams and Dr Danny Penman)
It's a great book that leads you through the first 8 weeks of meditating, and
contains meditation aid audio clips for various scenarios. The most useful
I've found is the 3 minute "breathing space" meditation, particularly for that
noisy bus - you need good noise excluding ear buds though.
If you don't like the speaking audio, and/or you've practiced enough not to
need the prompts, you should check out Simply Noise:
[http://simplynoise.com/](http://simplynoise.com/) << they also have apps for
phones.
I've found it equally helpful for rendering words unintelligible, which makes
mindful awareness much easier.
------
summerdown2
It certainly seems like you got a lot out of meditation. My own practice is
similar (20 mins most days for a few years and 130 days consecutively now),
but I think in a different Zen tradition.
I've found in practice that I have most success when I treated emotional highs
and lows as irrelevant. The books I've read all suggest that the point is to
focus on ordinary life, not search for ever deeper trance states, and my
experience has been that trance states are transient while ordinary life goes
on always. Taking my meditation in that direction has tended to make it
gentler, lower-impact, but longer-lasting. At least it feels that way.
If you ever meditate differently, it would be interesting to see you contrast
any new effects with the ones you've already experienced.
I found your essay fascinating, by the way, particularly your precision in
analysis. It's what I might call first-person science :)
------
ph4
I've been meditating 45 minutes per day for 4 years now, happy to answer any
questions.
~~~
crassT
2 questions if you don't mind.
Firstly, why do you think it's worth it and do you notice a substantial
difference in your life when you stop for whatever reason?
Secondly every time I read something like this, or talk to people that
meditate, it seems extremely unscientific and filled with subjective analysis.
Can you point me to something that would convince me that it has real world
benefits, past that of taking a nap, or stopping for 45 minutes to think about
your day/life.
~~~
funkjunky
try doing your own experiment and just do it, I'm pretty sure you can find 20
minutes a day to set aside for it. The first thing that you will notice is
that it is TOUGH, but after several weeks you'll start to gain moments of
clarity and eventually it will "click" and you'll get it. Or it wont, and you
can just move on
~~~
crassT
Actually since this thread I've been doing 30-45 minutes a day as an
experiment. I have done meditation before alone and with a group, but never to
this extent. While it's far too early to comment on how it's going without
bias, I can say I have noticed several personal improvements that I believe I
can attribute to the meditation. These mostly stem from applying mindfulness
to my everyday life, which seems to be different to your experiences, but then
again it has only been 2 weeks.
So far I find it more than worth the time investment, and at this point the 45
minutes flys by.
------
nrs26
Thank you for putting this together and sharing it. I've been flirting with
the idea of meditating more seriously for the last few years, and I always
find myself making excuses not to continue with it. A 50 or 100 day challenge
seems like a manageable experiment, and a better way of deciding if it's
worthwhile to continue.
I have a question. Could you explain "The Deep" in a little bit more detail?
What happens to your body and your mind? What is going through your head?
~~~
duncancarroll
Thanks; feel free to join the group and start posting.
The Deep is sort of a 2nd plateau, the first being basically just an awareness
of your mind being (very) noticeably stiller, ie "Hey, my thoughts have
stopped--cool." The 1st plateau would occur usually at the 30 minute mark.
The Deep would occur a bit after that, usually at the 45-60 minute mark,
occasionally sooner, and it is like the 1st plateau, only much more so--almost
like if you were actually scuba diving and you had gone deep enough into the
water that you could just barely see the light of the sun above you. The first
plateau is characterized by stillness, but The Deep is a profound stillness,
stillness to the 2nd power. It struck me, because I realized I had never
experienced a stillness like this before in my life.
Body and mind are secondary and not thought of--in fact nothing whatsoever is
going through my head, except the awareness of the stillness and calm.
Breathing is barely perceptible, heartbeat not felt. It is a significantly
refreshing experience.
------
enkephalin
when i see the words 'challenge' and 'meditation' being used in the same
sentence, an alarm goes of in my head. i'm too tired to go into details right
now, but if you're interested in where i'm coming from, or in meditation in
general, i highly recommend giving this book a read:
[http://www.amazon.com/Meditation-Without-Gurus-Clark-
Strand/...](http://www.amazon.com/Meditation-Without-Gurus-Clark-
Strand/dp/1893361934)
the first review sums things up nicely:
_Clark Strand cuts right to the heart of meditation, without dogma, gurus,
religion, beliefs, or any of the other gunk that gets in the way of sincere
and honest practice. In a beautiful style reminiscent of Thich Nhat Hanh,
Strand has created the ideal meditation companion and guide. While Strand is
probably among the few teachers who would never invite a following, he most
certainly deserves one. If you read no other book on meditation, read this
one. If you have other books on meditation, put them on the back shelf and
read this one. If you have never meditated before and want a book to teach you
how, read this one. This is the only meditation guide you will ever need. It
is superb!_
~~~
duncancarroll
I know what you mean. I probably should have called it a "personal challenge."
------
scrrr
I was in SE-Asia and went to a few temples to meditate. One time I reached
that deep state very quickly. I suppose it had to do with the sound of falling
water nearby.. If you ever go to a Buddhist country I suggest you visit a
course. It's quite cool. There was one teacher that has shown us how to
meditate while walking. It was surprisingly good and I didn't walk into any
walls or pillars while doing it.. ;)
~~~
duncancarroll
It's interesting that the environment you're in could have an effect on how
long it takes to get to The Deep; I believe it.
Meditating while walking sounds interesting but it also seems like it could be
quite hard to control heart rate. Of course, maybe that's not as big of an
issue as I make it out to be. In any case I'll have to try it sometime. Do you
have a link to any further source of information about it?
~~~
vidarh
Why would you want to control heart rate?
If you are so out of shape that the walking causes you discomfort, then walk
slower. Same if you feel your heart rate is too quick to allow you to stay
calm.
Other than than that, there's no reason to worry about heart rate.
~~~
duncancarroll
Only because it seemed to be closely tied to entering The Deep. But of course,
it's possible that reduced heartrate is an effect rather than a cause of the
meditative state, so I'll certainly try it out.
------
duncancarroll
Also, for anyone who's interested, we'll be doing a second "100-day challenge"
over in /r/meditation beginning January 1:
[http://www.reddit.com/r/Meditation/comments/1swxn2/the_secon...](http://www.reddit.com/r/Meditation/comments/1swxn2/the_second_annual_rmeditation_100day_meditation/)
------
holyjaw
Very interesting read. I practiced meditation for a couple of months, but only
for 15-30 minutes a day. I haven't researched too much, but the idea of "The
Deep" as you describe makes the challenge seem worthy. Side question: how did
your wife feel about you taking on a lengthy challenge that forced celibacy?
~~~
duncancarroll
Thank you. Getting to The Deep made a big difference, but it took around 30
days before I got there.
My wife was remarkably cool about it, but of course, if you read the end of
the article, you can see that I didn't quite make it all the way. =) What she
didn't like so much, was that between 6-7pm I was not available to help out
with making dinner.
~~~
vidarh
"The Deep" sounds to me like the first or second Jhana from your description.
But note that there are also a number of blissfull states that are generally
seen as you being "sidetracked". If your goal is the bliss, then that is of
course fine. If your goal is continuing to deeper meditation states, it is not
a given that focusing on re-entering that state is a good idea.
As for your "forehead catching fire" that sounds like it could be related to
concept of the acquired sign or counter sign (basically "images", though they
need not be visual, that come to signal certain mental states), though for it
to persist outside of meditation sounds odd.
~~~
duncancarroll
The bliss seemed like a side-effect; it was nice but I wasn't trying to elicit
it as much as it was generated by the calm.
Yeah, the forehead-flame was/is really bizarre. I did some Google searches for
it and didn't find much of anything that didn't seem like pseudo-science (look
up "Ajna chakra" and you'll see what I mean...)
It's always hard to convey to people that it was very different from a mental
image / thought / feeling in that it actually feels tactile, in the same way
that if you had a rock in your shoe, you wouldn't confuse it for anything else
--I just don't know what this "rock" is made of; it could certainly be a
creation of my mind, but it doesn't present itself that way. It's easy to
ignore, so I ignore it.
~~~
Estragon
In certain forms of Theravadin practice, the bliss is the "engine" which
motivates the concentration on the target object. Fostering the bliss does
tend to make it much easier to settle down, particularly when the mind is
disturbed.
[http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/painhe...](http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/painhelp.html)
------
jds375
Interesting read. Based on the author's findings, I'm not sure if I could
justify it. I feel like there's probably something better I could do,
especially if the effects of meditation aren't as noticeable outside of your
meditation period as the author suggests. Still worth a shot at some point I
guess.
~~~
michaelochurch
_I feel like there 's probably something better I could do, especially if the
effects of meditation aren't as noticeable outside of your meditation period
as the author suggests._
Not to diminish the OP's accomplishment, but he only meditated for 100 days.
Even if you're as disciplined as he was, you're only scratching the surface at
3 months. If you want the perennial peace of a monk or a master, that takes
years. But it's about the process and the work as much as the result.
Most of us have decades of conditioning in a high-stress, competitive society
(and, if you believe in karma, possibly eons of difficult karma). We're also
evolved to survive in a much harsher environment than the one we're in now.
You're not going to undo all of that in 3 months, but you can make a
surprising amount of progress.
~~~
krsunny
To me, meditation seems like an entirely self serving activity. As an analogy
(and probably not a very good one) what if electrons began to meditate 60
minutes per day? They lose their charge and basically do nothing? Or what if
birds and bees began to meditate? I think the result of all that would be
pretty obvious.
~~~
michaelochurch
Your first error is assuming that meditation is "doing nothing". Meditation is
an attempt to get past the shallow chatter of mostly negative thoughts that
drains us, and closer to the deeper nature of mind.
Perhaps the electron, which fulfills its physical contract perfectly, is
already in a state of pure meditation. Who knows?
As for whether animals meditate and what would happen if they did, I have no
idea.
------
abhayv
Meditation is best learned with a good teacher. I highly recommend Bhante
Vimalaramsi at [http://www.dhammasukha.net/](http://www.dhammasukha.net/) I
recently did a 5 day retreat and it was life changing. He makes meditation
practical, fun and rewarding.
------
ollieglass
Interesting read, thanks. I'm curious about meditation not helping with
everyday stress, outside of your "force field" time. Do you have any thoughts
on why there wasn't a halo effect?
~~~
duncancarroll
It's hard to say--I definitely expected there to be more of an after-effect,
so it was a little disappointing to realize that that wasn't going to happen.
I think a lot of it has to do with the setting in which I live and work--big
cities simply have a lot of stressors in them: noise, crowds, cars, etc., that
are all triggers for me. At the time I was also managing a group of co-
workers, and the responsibilities that came with it also were stressful.
I think I would have been able to persist the state longer if I lived in a
suburb where I could avoid those things more readily.
------
duncancarroll
(Pardon the fact that it's a Google Doc; I haven't had time to write it into
HTML yet and the Export function is not quite cutting it.)
~~~
jwrobes
I've been practicing meditation for a long time off and on. I've gone months
with sitting every day. I've had stretches where I sat an hour a day. I've
participated in mediation retreats. One new concept that I'm trying to put in
place relates directly to the point about how just sitting every day doesn't
change the stress level at work. It's the idea of trying to break away the
practice of awareness from the cushion and spread it out during the day. It's
really simple, but I've found it very difficult to practice. It's 5 "moments"
a day you remember to "meditate." Basically this moments should lass from 15
seconds to a minute, and you just try and gain awareness of whatever is
present in that moment.
To me this could promise some powerful benefits, beyond just sitting every
day. But thus far, I've found it very hard to do this 5 times a day. Anyone
ever try this?
~~~
michaelochurch
_To me this could promise some powerful benefits, beyond just sitting every
day. But thus far, I 've found it very hard to do this 5 times a day. Anyone
ever try this?_
This sounds really interesting.
Something I'd like to strive for is more purity in experiences. What I mean is
that when I go swimming, I shouldn't be thinking about work. When I'm at work,
I shouldn't be thinking about my next swim.
I'm far from qualified to opine on this topic, but it seems to me that the
"most meditative" practice is to do whatever you're doing well, with intent,
and free of pollution from other influences, i.e. "when I sleep, I sleep; when
I eat, I eat".
The Deep (to me) is a lot like being in a coding flow, or that blissed-out
feeling you get an hour or two into a long bike ride or a swim.
~~~
jwrobes
Now to bounce off this. I think that there may actually be a difference
between what this practice can do for you and the experience of being in the
flow. However, I think they are closely related. My idea of what it means to
be the flow, you are, in a sense, not acting from your conscious "I" mind, but
just kind of acting without acting. This is the whole Taoist Wu-Wei concept.
But really, you are coming from the space from which thought arises, rather
than the thought itself.
So when you are in the flow with coding, swim, or bike ride, you are in the
midst of an action that granted you access to this state. But you did not
actually consciously enter this directly state by choice.
But the I think the trap can be that you can only access this when you are
doing things that lead to being in the flow. What about being able to enter
this state when you are really upset about something or when things are going
badly, or when you are bored, or when you are doing something compulsively.
The practice I believe is trying to access this state at random times of the
day, and especially in those times when you are not engaged in an activity
that lends itself to this awareness, but actually engaged in activities that
do the opposite (such as being annoyed at someone).
The idea is that you are building this muscle that allows you to access the
"flow" more and more and eventually maybe realize that in some way can always
access the space from which thought arises, because that space must always
exist.
But again, this is theory. Practice is hard. I'll take a moment now.
The concept for this came from this ebook. I've only skimmed it.
[http://www.greatfreedom.org/Gallery/ShortMoments.pdf](http://www.greatfreedom.org/Gallery/ShortMoments.pdf)
~~~
funkjunky
I believe the flow state is essentially an active meditation. One accesses it
by stilling the blah blah thought mind and ego enough to allow the
subconscious to freely flow into action. There are plenty of ways to do this,
in fact I've found boring repetition is great for it (I play piano). Above all
else though, meditation is probably the best practice, since that trains one
to be still enough to allow deeper parts of the mind to "flow" freer whilst
maintaining enough focus that one isn't derailed by every possible distraction
that could arise. And I also agree with you on the "muscle" training
throughout the day. This state is always available, and the trick to being a
baddass at life is to be able to find it NO MATTER WHAT else is going on. The
only way to train that is to do in distracting situations. This is why I like
yoga, because there's a bunch of other crap going on that I have to "overcome"
with focus and stillness of mind. Only then will the asana make sense and I'll
access that state, and that same training makes me better at it for rest of my
daily activities. Kind like how doing math also makes you good a solving
problems in general, or reading/writing literature makes you more emotionally
intelligent.
------
jamgraham
Thanks for the inspiration Duncan! - I've added this to my goals for 2014!
~~~
duncancarroll
Hey, thanks James! Maybe an Om-themed Top Coat is in order? =D
------
mobitar
Why did you stop meditating from April through December of 2013?
~~~
duncancarroll
I probably got a sit or two per month in after that, so I didn't stop
completely, but I slowed down mainly because I got a new job that I liked and
so I let myself get completely sucked into it and ended up working later
hours.
I also wanted to continue to be social and that meant going out and having a
beer every once in a while. Those two things really crowded out the 6-7pm time
slot that I had for sitting.
I wish it were easier for me to sit in the morning, but alas. I'm hoping to
restart the practice with the 2nd Annual /r/meditation sit this coming
January.
~~~
manmal
Have you considered using a daylight lamp in the morning (with about 10k lux)?
Looking into it should stop melatonin production and give you nice caffeine-
free mental kickstart. I use mine for 10-20 minutes every morning and I think
it has helped me staying off the caffeine (it even seems to increase my blood
pressure which is quite low without caffeine).
~~~
duncancarroll
Oh, I'd never heard of that--that sounds really intriguing, I'll definitely
give it a try. Thanks for the reccommendation!
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
ASCII video using a websocket and a pre tag - nym
http://www.nonblocking.io/2011/01/streaming-ascii-art-demo-on.html
======
dmotz
Nice proof of concept. I like to see the stretching of node's capabilities.
On a slightly related note, you can play with a similar effect in VLC by
setting the output module in the video preferences to "Color ASCII" and
restarting it.
See also: <http://earthlingsoft.net/ASCII%20Projektor/>
~~~
burgerbrain
Alternatively, by using either the libcaca or aalib mplayer drivers.
------
nitrogen
I'd love to combine this concept with my (shameless plug) ASCII art Kinect
demos:
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2106077>
Looks like it's time to learn Javascript.
------
Semiapies
I get a message that my browser (Chrome) appears to support all necessary
features, but nothing happens.
------
nitrogen
To view on Firefox 4, go to about:config and set network.websocket.override-
security-block to true.
------
zekel
Video example doesn't look SFW.
~~~
cakeface
Yeah, what is that?
edit: I think its a boxing match. Guess thats ok :)
------
trotsky
The final word in the format wars.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Of Hamsters and Foxes: How a Failed Startup Can Be a Real Success Anyway - mirozoo
https://medium.com/@mirozoo/of-hamsters-and-foxes-how-a-failed-startup-can-be-a-real-success-anyway-a333a17ee0e#.2pbubiljn
======
jwingy
I don't understand the value of this over simply building a mini ITX system
for cheaper and equal/greater performance? The only advantage this has is
being able stay portable with the external GPU but $500 just for a dock is
insane.
~~~
mirozoo
Seems that you have commented the wrong link...
------
itaifrenkel
Very interesting read. Could you please elaborate on the startup/VC/software
scene in Germany (Berlin?). It sounds like you didn't have experienced friends
that would have help you change your mind earlier (intervention)
~~~
mirozoo
Good point, Itai! We'd contacted about 50 VC companies in Germany prior and
during our development of teamspir.it. Unfortunately, the response rate was
almost zero and we only had one meeting with a wannabe VC.
You're right: We neither had the right connections nor an adequate track
record at that time.
I must admit that as a VC guy, I wouldn't had been interested to invest in
teamspir.it back then, too. As described in the essay, USP, concept and target
group really were not clear enough.
------
alexandrerond
Somehow I expected an article about a start up doing something with cute
animals...
~~~
mirozoo
Maybe then it would have been successful! ;-)
------
digitalshankar
I felt this log startup like using facebook but only for companies or personal
work.
~~~
mirozoo
Yes, in the broadest sense, it had some basic features in common with FB. If
we would compare it to similar tools available today, it should have become a
mix of jell.com, 15five.com, idonethis.com and Slack. (But we'd also planned
some unique features before we ran out of cash.)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Where does the Ubuntu Linux desktop go from here? - rbanffy
http://www.zdnet.com/article/where-does-the-ubuntu-linux-desktop-go-from-here/#ftag=RSSbaffb68
======
AndyMcConachie
We bought a ZaReason Linux laptop for my wife last year and it has really
reset my expectations for what I can expect of a Linux desktop. It works
mostly. But things break somewhat regularly and it needs a happy reboot at
least once every two days. In short, by 2017 standards it's a buggy piece of
shit. For the average computer user who does not want a Mac, I would recommend
Windows over Ubuntu at this point. It's more stable and less buggy.
In terms of quality I would put it about 10-15 years behind Mac OSX or
Windows. I almost never have to reboot my Mac because something broke, and
when I use modern Windows machines I also seldom have to reboot them.
So my message to Canonical is to make something that doesn't suck. My wife
doesn't care what window manager is chosen, just pick one and stick with it
until it works. And test the crap out of it. test, test, test... Find bugs and
fix them. Your geeky Linux user doesn't care about little annoying bugs, but
less technical users really do.
~~~
AdmiralAsshat
Sorry to hear about your wife's bad experience.
Never heard of the company, but based on the specs of laptops being offered
from the website, I'd hazard a guess that the discrete GPU is probably the
source of many of your woes. Linux has always been a second-class citizen for
video cards, particularly since NVIDIA's binary blobs fly in the face of the
FOSS spirit.
If she doesn't do intense graphical editing or gaming, an integrated GPU from
Intel would probably run much better on Linux.
FWIW (and I hate countering anecdotal evidence with more anecdotal evidence),
I've got a Dell XPS 13 running Fedora and it will run days/weeks without a
problem. I reboot it maybe once a month in order to apply the latest kernel,
and that's about it.
~~~
ramy_d
It baffles me that your recommendation is to get off Nvidia hardware +
restricted drivers and use an Intel integrated GPU. Have you had such bad time
with Nvidia hardware and their drivers?
~~~
AdmiralAsshat
Personally? No. But as stated, my primary laptop has an integrated GPU. Intel
drivers tend to have support in the kernel so everything just works out-of-
the-box. It's one of the reasons I tore the Broadcomm wifi card that came with
the XPS13 and replaced it with an Intel 7265.
I am not sure whether the parent was using the nouveau drivers or the NVIDIA
blobs. It's besides the point either way: GPU's on Linux are notoriously
finicky, no matter your stack.
The recommendation to go with an integrated GPU is strictly pragmatic. I
personally am a tinkerer and am willing to live with a little bit of pain as
far as functionality or configuration for ideological reasons if it means
supporting a FOSS distribution. But I can't make that same assumption for the
parent's wife, and if she wants something that "just works" because she's
unwilling to tolerate that level of pain, then an integrated GPU might be the
way to go.
~~~
ramy_d
I don't understand how that's your go-to suggestion. It just makes a lot of
assumptions, it's anecdotal, and I'm just surprised there's this kind of
armchair tech support on HN. And then others go on the forum and read it.
Everybody on the below thread is having a tertiary argument thinking I have
something to say about GPUs and their drivers. I could not care less.
------
systems
kde is really very good, maybe because i am used to it, i dont see what it is
missing, but i think even if it is missing something, it is probably minor
as Linus Torvalds said in a video on youtube, what linux on the desktop need
is to come preinstalled by the major pc vendor ... ubuntu need more deals with
big vendors that is all
~~~
terrestrial
KDE and Gnome are both really good nowadays, but Ubuntu is a buggy piece of
shit. I've helped friends install it a couple of times recent years, and seen
various desktop program crashes _every time_. It wasn't like this back in the
Gnome2 days.
What we really need is Red Hat to start selling Fedora computers. And KDE Neon
to ship laptops based on Debian stable. And obviously at least one big
retailer to have them in a physical store, so we tell our friends where to go.
~~~
rantanplan
A Fedora "leap" release, same as with OpenSUSE Leap, with a 3 year support
cycle would be the ultimate system for me.
I've been using Fedora for the last 7-8 years, but I have to upgrade every
13-14 months or so. And CentOS is not suited for a modern
development/workstation environment.
~~~
lima
I like it. Fedora upgrades are mostly painless and 3 year support cycles means
more outdated software.
~~~
rantanplan
Yes I like it too, but think farther ahead.
Why is Ubuntu the defacto supported Linux distro? Why is,quite often, steam so
difficult to install, while it's a breeze to install on Ubuntu?
You can't expect people to consider you as a legitimate target if you're
constantly moving :(
------
cs702
While Linux developers and users endlessly argued about, and worked on,
different UI environments, display server stacks, etc., Android's UI became
the world's most used computer interface environment (around 1.5 billion
devices, at last count):
[http://expandedramblings.com/index.php/android-
statistics/](http://expandedramblings.com/index.php/android-statistics/)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_syste...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems)
Market relevance aside, I view Ubuntu's return to Gnome as a Good Thing. It
means there will be more work towards common goals by Canonical and Red Hat.
------
secfirstmd
Just give a Linux desktop which is a smooth as macOS.
~~~
Asooka
Oh god please no. I would really prefer that we stop the experimentation and
just go back to implementing the standard desktop. Linux got its success by
being a Unix clone, down to copying the syscall numbers. We should mimic that
on desktop by just copying Windows, rather than chasing unproven weird ideas.
OSX succeeds not because it's quirky, but because it is backed by a company
with massive resources. And even OSX is much closer to Windows than Gnome is.
Please stop innovation for innovation's sake and just make Windows 98 again.
~~~
criddell
> OSX succeeds not because it's quirky, but because it is backed by a company
> with massive resources.
If deep pockets was all it took to make an OS succeed, Windows Phone wouldn't
be dead.
On the desktop, OSX, Windows, and most Linux variants are all good enough.
What matters is application support. For my job, 50% of the applications I use
run on Linux, 75% run on OSX (natively), and 100% work on Windows. Can you
guess which OS I use at work?
Thanks to Valve, Linux has a real shot at picking up some steam in the gaming
space. Without Adobe and Microsoft, it probably won't go anywhere on corporate
or consumer desktops.
~~~
zamalek
> 100% work on Windows
Make that 110% if you include Visual Studio. The degree of polish that Visual
Studio has just isn't available anywhere else. At some point early this year I
was considering Linux+VSCode. VS2017, with F5-to-Docker debug, launched and
everything else looks like a giant pain in the ass once again. The Azure
integration is anticompetitive but, wow, is it also so much better than the
alternative.
XCode is a hilarious joke that Apple is playing on developers.
Linux IDEs, while much better than XCode, would have been competitive in 2003
(unless you use Java/IntelliJ exclusively).
It's no wonder that Windows is the only platform where developers shy away
from text editors - it's the only platform where the alternatives to text
editors don't absolutely suck. It's really not that text editors are better
than IDEs - an good IDE and a good text editor are complementary, not
competitive.
Where I'm going with this is that a good IDE begets a quality application.
That 100% doesn't arise from the ether. Alongside your game argument comes
another indicator of this: Windows has a very mature graphical debugger[1]
(having been growing it since DX9) where, so far as I have read, both
competing operating systems lack this functionality _entirely._
Balmer might have looked like a fool with his "developers, developers,
developers" dance. The thing is that he was completely correct - instead of
mocking his monkey dancing, Apple and Linux should have been paying attention
to the people that he was praising.
If Ubuntu want to compete in this space the developer experience must be
fixed.
[1]: [https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-
us/library/hh315751.aspx](https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-
us/library/hh315751.aspx)
~~~
reitanqild
_The degree of polish that Visual Studio has just isn 't available anywhere
else. _
I like Windows more than before but people saying VS is fantastic are starting
to annoy me.
My VS _crashed_ 3 times today (!). This comes on top of almost not having any
refactoring support unless you buy ReSharper.
I was really excited to get to try .Net three months ago.
Now I'm really looking forward to go back to Java and Netbeans (even if I will
miss some things.)
_It 's no wonder that Windows is the only platform where developers shy away
from text editors_
This developer love Netbeans on KDE.
~~~
zamalek
ReSharper? I typically run lightweight in terms of extensions and I've heard
woes from others that don't.
~~~
reitanqild
But without ReSharper, Visual Studio (at least the community edition) can't
refactor almost anything.
------
wowtip
While I like Ubuntu going back to Gnome for desktop, it is unfortunate this
lessens the chance of running Linux on mobile phones anytime soon.
~~~
criddell
Linux already is running on the majority of mobile phones. :)
That said, the UI has never been what's holding back Ubuntu on the phone.
~~~
dorfsmay
What was the issue?
Lack of apps? Marketing?
~~~
reitanqild
My guess is the biggest issue is almost every phone is locked down.
------
syntaxing
Does anyone here use Budgie as their main DE? I've been following Ubuntu
Budgie since the official flavor was announced last year. I played with the
unofficial version a bit in a VM and it worked relatively well. I would love
to hear some insight on it's performance and stability.
------
godmodus
More stability, add gaming support.
I moved to fedora because Ubuntu tends to break and guzzle resources.
------
type0
How I wish that Canonical would have chosen MATE instead, Wimpy is already
working for them.
~~~
lima
MATE is a dead end if you want a modern, Wayland-based desktop.
~~~
CrankyBear
Not true. Wayland's on MATE's Roadmap. [http://wiki.mate-
desktop.org/roadmap](http://wiki.mate-desktop.org/roadmap)
~~~
majewsky
Well, from what it says there, it sounds like "yeah, we will have to do that
sometime".
------
reneberlin
Do not talk about - make my desktop experience last forever by upstreaming
unity in a fork. This will be my reality for years :)
I will be agnostic - won't change a lil thing even if the distro changes the
wm. watch the progress. i will keep unity .. forgive me. i even would backport
- if it doens't happen.
------
douche
I miss Gnome 2 Ubuntu.
~~~
ploggingdev
You can use the Mate Desktop Environment [1], it's pretty close to Gnome 2.
[1] [https://mate-desktop.org/](https://mate-desktop.org/)
~~~
douche
That is what I use these days, although I've switched to Mint instead of
Ubuntu.
~~~
everybodyknows
How are you liking Mint so far? Comparison with Cinnamon?
| {
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