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Working from home - ingve
http://mattgemmell.com/working-from-home/
======
cstross
Just to note that I've been working from home for nearly 14 years now, and I
have _always_ broken _almost all_ of these rules. Except the one about loving
what I do. Because I do love it: if I didn't, I'd get a different job.
I don't have a set routine. I don't avoid the sofa. If I want a mid-afternoon
nap, I have one. If I don't get up until noon, that's fine. I monitor my
outputs, not my inputs -- which is why you'll sometimes find me working at 5am
on a Sunday morning, or over a public holiday, and why you'll sometimes find
me shopping or in the pub during office hours. (Not to mention the gym: I try
to schedule my exercise for times when everyone with an office job is at their
desk.)
Outputs. As long as the work gets done, you're good to go. And apart from
that, make sure you still have a social life.
Drawbacks: it's easy to vanish down the rabbit hole: working in an office is
an oft-unacknowledged social experience, and even though your co-workers may
not be people who'd hang out with otherwise, human contact is important.
~~~
_dark_matter_
Just a question, are you married/have kids? I feel like that can be an
important part of the schedule question. With a family, you can't work all
those extra hours; or at least it would be much more difficult. These rules
would help enforce a normal running of the household. Any thoughts from other
at-home workers with families?
~~~
TY
Having kids (especially small ones) makes all the difference: I can't use my
wonderful home office any more because of the all noise in the house: my kids,
friends of my kids visiting, dog barking at all of them and etc.
Walking around with earplugs/headphones all day is too painful and not an
option, so now if I really want to get anything done I leave the house.
~~~
ufmace
I'm curious, how do you mean painful? I work in an office cube farm, and it's
often noisy/chatty enough that I find it hard to concentrate without
headphones or something. But I find most earbuds and cheap headphones
uncomfortable to wear for more than half an hour or so, so I bought a big set
of over-the-ear Bluetooth headphones that are great to wear all day long.
Might be worth a try if that's your problem.
~~~
marquis
There is more attention given to the sounds of your family than your work
colleagues. It's a completely different kind of distraction. And it's a little
bit heartbreaking every time to say to a kid that you are busy right now.
~~~
__abc
That last part. It's why I can't work at home. It's INCREDIBLY difficult for
me to ignore my children when in close proximity.
------
skizm
I slack off way more when I am in the office because I view it as killing time
till I leave. I browse reddit, hacker news, techmeme, sometimes I even just
pull up an eBook and read.
When I'm at home I will sit in front of my computer for less time and it will
appear that I am slacking off a lot more if someone were watching me, but my
time in front of the computer is way more productive because I don't have to
pretend to be busy for 8 hours but rather just have to do 4 really productive
hours of work.
I rarely work from home though, so I'm sure my work habits might be different
if I were working from home for an extended period of time.
edit: while it may not seem like it, I feel like I need these breaks in the
office to "slack". I can't stay focused for 8 hours every day, but I do have
to be in the office for 8 hours straight so... that's what the company gets.
~~~
weavie
The key to this was mentioned early in the article. You have to really like
your work for it to work.
~~~
skizm
Ah, yes. Key point. While I don't dislike my work now, it isn't exactly
exciting either.
------
jnbiche
These are all great points. However, he doesn't mention something I have dealt
with after a decade of freelancing: isolation.
I was always an extrovert before I started freelancing, and enjoyed meeting
people and going to events/parties. Unfortunately, after a decade of working
alone from my home office, I've slowly become an introvert, and am decidedly
uncomfortable in social situations. I'm attempting to change this by forcing
myself to go to various meetups, but it's hard.
Working from home has been a great benefit, and has helped my wife and I raise
our children in the manner we had hoped. But I've definitely paid a price for
10 years of freelancing from home, by myself.
I'd recommend scheduling frequent social events on your calendar from the very
start.
~~~
graeme
A good antidote to this is to live in a neighborhood where people are nothing
but a short walk away.
Obviously, this isn't feasible for everyone. But if I'm feeling isolated, I
have about 10 cafes that are a 5 minute walk away, and crowded streets where I
can see human faces. Really helps to relieve isolation.
~~~
akgerber
Note that if you're working remotely anyway, there are many cities in the US
where walkable neighborhoods with lovely cafes are nowhere near as overpriced
as in NYC/coastal CA/etc.
Pittsburgh and Milwaukee are two where I've lived; Chicago is quite affordable
for a major metropolis with 24/7 rail service; there are also many lovely
college towns out there.
------
akassover
I've been working from home for 10 years now and love it. It's not for
everybody, though. To add to the points from the article, here are a few
things I've learned over the years:
\- Your office chair is the most important piece of equipment in your office.
You're in contact with it most of the day. Buy a good one and it will last you
for years. Buy a bad one and it will give you back problems for years.
\- If you can, join a CrossFit (or similar) gym. Not only will you get in
great shape, they become a social outlet and because they're time boxed,
you're in and out in an hour.
\- Whether you like it or not, your spouse/significant other's days off become
your days off so plan accordingly.
\- Enjoy the flexibility of working from home. While you don't want to plunk
down and watch TV when you should be working, you can do things like meet a
plumber at your house without taking time off.
\- Build in a hard stop at the end of your day so you don't blur lines between
the workday and personal time. For me, I have a rule that I never work while
the kids are home and awake. My wife texts me when they're leaving daycare and
that gives me about 15 minutes to save what I'm working on and shift from work
mode to home mode.
We're moving from Seattle to the Tokyo suburbs next month. The time zone shift
+ foreign country are going to add a new layer of complexity to working from
home. At least I get to bring my chair.
------
neals
What I never read in these things, but what is not a small aspect, is office
politics.
I've only, a few months ago, realized how much time I used to spend
manipulating my managers, bosses and coworkers' behavior. And how much time
they used to spend manipulating mine. It's such an exhausting time consuming
thing that is now gone entirely.
Every now and then I join a meeting at the office of a client and right away
you feel the tugging, pulling and pushing taking place. A laugh to encourage
behavior, a verbal stab to discourage it.
Such a waste.
------
occam65
I'm not sure how often this actually gets mentioned, but a huge problem is
dealing with your spouse. "Oh, you're at home? Can you run these errands for
me, and also clean, vacuum, and take the leftovers to my parent's place for
me?"
It's extremely difficult getting your spouse to respect the "working" part of
working from home.
~~~
Htsthbjig
"It's extremely difficult getting your spouse to respect the "working" part of
working from home."
No, I used to believe so, but it is actually very easy. You tell her you are
working and no you can't, and you actually mean it, you have to be really
convinced inside.
My advice is that you look yourself in the mirror, you are probably projecting
insecurity in your body language.
You don't need to get angry, quite the contrary , you need to control the
situation in a calm assertive way.
Women are like dogs, they feel insecurity(they are much better at body
language than men) y and try to get advantage of it in a subconcious way,
watch "Dog Whisperer" to understand what I mean. The worst thing is that they
disrespect those that are easy to control.
We are animals after all, and our inner chimpanzee is controlling most of what
we do, the different is that we use reason to justify what our chimpanzee
wanted afterwards.
~~~
h2s
> Women are like dogs
Fuck off.
------
mariocesar
I have a comfortable workspace and all I need to work. The problem from
Working Home is when you are stressed and have a heavy workload, you will do
more than 8 hours, you will shower at 12pm, you will lunch at 4pm, breakfast
at noon, and if you can't interact with someone you can easily get depressed
or more stressed out.
When I worked in an office, when the clock hit the 6pm there was nothing I can
do to keep working, it was not possible, I miss that mindset despite I hate
the idea to come back working in an office again.
That is my problem, working from home is great but is an awful experience when
you are stressed.
------
markbnj
I've been working from home for about ten years now, and I agree with the
author's points. I will also note something the younger readers here might not
be thinking about yet: kids and pets. If you think your XBox is a distraction,
you have an education coming on the what a real distraction is.
~~~
mbrameld
I can't speak about kids but having a dog is a big part of what makes working
from home work for me. She forces me to take regular breaks to go for a walk.
Without her I would likely work for much longer stretches and get much less
exercise.
~~~
markbnj
Yes, well kids are a whole 'nother level, of course. I have two dogs, and
while I pretty much owe my life to them and their, umm, dogged instance on
long walks every night, I would probably weight them a net negative in terms
of workday productivity.
~~~
mcguire
Oh, come on. There's really nothing like being on a phone conference with the
rest of your team and a couple of important customers and having a dog run
through your office with a squeaky toy and the other dog in hot pursuit.
"Squeaksqueaksqueaksqueaksqueaksqueaksqueak...."
"Uh, excuse me. No, I'm ok. I feel better now."
~~~
markbnj
Or having them go into full-throttle alert mode because a leaf blew through
the yard.
------
gdonelli
My routine is similar, but includes taking a 35min nap everyday. I found that
napping has improved my wellbeing and productivity by a factor of 2.
~~~
buttsex
This has worked for me too. I take a 45 min nap everyday after lunch. It helps
split the day up into two parts where I am fully refreshed for both. Some of
my friends find it odd that a grown man takes a nap during the day but it
works great for me.
~~~
gdonelli
Couldn't agree more
------
kovrik
I'd like to work from home. I have no problems with discipline, distractions
etc.
The problem is: I don't know what to do. Making webapps in PHP, creating web
design, drawing, writing - I can imagine doing these things at home.
But I am a Java developer. Who would hire a freelancer to write a server-side
code?
How to start?
~~~
graeme
One way to get an idea of the landscape would be to browse Java projects on
Elance and Odesk. Not necessarily hire yourself there, but just get a sense of
what people are contracting for.
Then maybe contact some business that use the kind of code you make, and ask
if you can chat over coffee about whether and how they use contractors.
Doing those two things will give you some idea of the landscape. I'm sure
there are contractors doing what you do – there are in almost all fields.
~~~
bentcorner
I'm in the same boat. I currently work for a bigco and am frankly tired of it.
I have no idea where to start. How do freelancers bootstrap?
~~~
graeme
* Save as much money as you possible can, and lower your expenses
* Start looking for a client or two on the side
* Think about what skills you can productize (e.g. an e-book guide to some sub speciality you're good at, in a niche who use that speciality to make money, and for which no good guide exists)
~~~
bentcorner
I'm interested in this second point. In your previous post you mention "Then
maybe contact some business that use the kind of code you make, and ask if you
can chat over coffee about whether and how they use contractors.". Sorry for
being... naive about this, but I frankly don't know how this is done. Would
you mind if I ask you a few more questions over email?
~~~
graeme
Sure. My email's in my profile.
The gist is that people love to talk, and will rarely turn down a sincere
request to give information. As I'm doing right now.
My brother got a job this way, and build a professional network at the same
time. And almost everything I started in business came from a (well-targeted)
cold email or phone call.
------
handzhiev
Working from home for 11 years. Never followed strict routine like this. I
work when I have work to do (which is all the time) and usually stop after
dinner, and I take rest when I feel tired. Often having long lunch with beer /
wine and sometimes have rest after it. Sometimes working in the midnight.
I don't need predefined time for exercise - our homestead keeps me busy with
physical work like gardening and woodworking all the time. We live in a hilly
rural area with no car, so going to buy groceries is a good exercise as well.
All due respect to the author but routine like this scream "boring to death"
for me. I can't imagine committing to such way of living unless I had no other
choice. Like cstross said above, the output / result of your work is far more
important. YMMV.
------
hnnewguy
Some great tips, as someone who has dealt with the issues of at-home work.
Some nitpicks:
> _It’s not possible to spend too much money on a chair and desk that prevent
> repetitive strain injury._
If that photo is of the author's office, I _think_ I recognize that chair as a
very inexpensive, mass market chair.
> _As I mentioned, I have an exercise bike in my office that I can use whilst
> working on my MacBook Air_
Exercise is about energy output. If you can type emails while you workout, you
are likely not working hard enough, and would probably be better served,
efficiency-wise, by working harder for a shorter period of time.
------
mbillie1
I've been working from home for a few months now, and have found articles like
these very valuable and adjusting to the lifestyle change (previously I was a
traveling consultant living in a hotel ~5 nights a week, so it's a major
change for me). Setting up an office and using that space for work and work
only has been very helpful. The email/distraction stuff never really bit me,
but maybe I've always been a bit distracted.
Having my spouse adjust has been a challenge. Being asked to feed the cat etc.
while 12 frames deep debugging is very frustrating.
I was initially concerned about discipline, but found rather that I now end up
overworking - it's deceptively easy to work 10 or 11 hours a day when at home,
as you tend to micro-scrutinize the time you spend not actually typing code.
If I'm at the office and I spend 15 minutes chatting with a coworker, I don't
feel guilty about those 15 minutes. If I'm at home and I read Facebook for 5
minutes I probably work another half an hour. Something I need to get better
on, at any rate.
I love reading these submissions though, as they have already given me enough
good ideas to make working from home work for me. I'm curious to see, as more
and more people start adopting this lifestyle, what other tricks and
strategies will emerge. (For me, a pre-dawn winter hike and a bit of skiing at
first light is worth whatever other lifestyle changes I have to make to adopt
to working from home!)
------
potomak
My personal advice, as a freelancer who worked from home for almost two years,
is to use a time boxing technique such as the pomodoro technique (this is the
reason why I also built [http://tomato.es](http://tomato.es) time tracker) or
just find a nice coworking near your place (this is the reasong why I founded
[http://memecoworking.com](http://memecoworking.com)).
~~~
gdubs
I stuck to pomodoro years ago while working for myself, and found it to be
incredibly effective. One caveat: it doesn't work very well for more free form
aspects of projects, the creative phase, etc.
I no longer follow it, but the rhythm is somewhat ingrained, and I take
regular breaks for context switching, etc. biggest difference is that I allow
for longer stretches of productivity while being more conscious of passing the
burnout point.
------
hagbardgroup
This is a wonderful article that reflects my experience of around ~5
noncontinuous years of working from home.
I'm also finding that it helps to vary what work that you do rather than
attempting to crunch out just one kind of work endlessly (spend x hours on
sales, spend y hours on the project, spend z hours on marketing, spend xx
hours learning new skill, spend yy on email/news/social media).
I have also tried co-working and hated it because it's like an open plan
office except with strangers. Coffee shops are even worse, although they can
be OK for a context switch with white noise playing on headphones. I think the
best compromise is probably either a small office outbuilding on your own
property or an affordable office nearby.
Another key: wake up super early in the morning every day. Becoming a morning
person has made a big difference for me. Wouldn't be able to do it without
eating melatonin, but it gets the job done.
------
Htsthbjig
More than 10 years working from home.
I really enjoy it. My advice is: find someone-partner with someone else that
loves to do and is good at what you hate, and vive versa.
If you find yourself procrastinating in some area of your work, you need to do
this. Is usually means finding the opposite personality of you.
E.g I love creative work but hate so much constant work doing the same thing
over and over. Solution: There is people out there that loves to do the same
thing over and over but hates getting out of their comfort zone.
So this way I explore a new problem, I digest it, plan it with detail, then I
give this to the other person to complete the job. She loves it, because
something impossible becomes very easy to do once I told her all the steps.
You can't do anything alone, you need a team. Study personality types, then go
hunting for help.
------
binaryapparatus
I have great respect for Matt but I am very cautious about accepting articles
like this as they are.
Main problem is what do we count as work? High quality output or do we count
research phases too?
In my experience, working at home and honestly measuring productive time can
surprise menu. While I can pull more than four hours of productive work (daily
total), it is _very_ unusual to see more than four. Comparing with other
professionals, when I could ask them (and I have asked menu), shows similar
results. At least on realms I could check, four hours per day seems like magic
boundary.
Is this unusual? Do others manage to pull six, eight or more quality work
hours? Looking at Matt schedule it seems he should be publishing several books
by now?
------
lliamander
I think the main part of what it comes down to is that people are generally
their own worst boss. Which makes sense, because when we are employees who
work in the same office as our boss, we have become accustomed to delegating
the management of our time, priorities, etc. to them. For me, the "7 Habits of
Highly Effective People" has been a primary source for better self-management.
While I don't currently work from home (often), I want to get to the point
where I can be independent: whether that means working from home, being self-
employed, or just having my employer trust me enough to let choose my own
work.
------
badman_ting
I've been doing it for about four years now, and highly prefer it. I agree
with everything that's here, I've made most of these discoveries myself.
However, while I do have a dedicated office, I found it more comfortable to
work in the living room because there's more light and a better view.
But yes, do act like a professional. I guess if you can actually do a full
day's work in a bathrobe then good for you, but I find the daily routine
provides valuable structure to the day. I also Skype with my coworkers at
least once a day so if I look like hell all the time that would probably not
look great.
------
return0
I guess many folks here work from home too. It's actually hard not having many
people to talk to about your experience, but we are not social pariahs;
freelancing is becoming more common.
A musical instrument is a great addition to the office, but i would go to a
gym instead of exercising at home, it's a good excuse to get out of the house
regularly. Ditto for walking, or getting a bike.
I wonder if there are forums where home-workers hang out to talk about their
days and experiences.
------
rehack
Excellent piece. I have been working from home roughly for the past 4 years.
Have worked on my own product alongside working on client projects.
I am not very disciplined by nature. If I am able to put in 4-5 hours of
concentrated code in a day, then I am extremely satisfied.
Below are some highlights of my experience.
Exercise replaces commute:
In Indian metros these days, commute to work is a curse. And people suffer
from it. On an average (anecdotal) people commute 1.5 hours a day. I am really
really thankful, I don't have to do that. Rather I use that time for exercise,
alternating between Cardio and Strength exercises on adjacent days.
Routine:
Wake up at 7:30. Go for exercise at 8:30. Breakfast at 10/10:30. Start work by
11/11:30 AM. But once I start work (which includes communication, sysadmin
work, tax etc. work and of course coding), I am at it till roughly around 6 or
7 PM.
Distractions:
Social media is a modern day curse. And people who are able to conquer it,
will rule the world. I have had my weak phases. But I have mastered it to a
reasonable extent.
A simple rule 'No Facebook till 5 PM' has served me very well. I may check
twitter some times during the day, but unless there is some true breaking
news, or I am in my weak-easy-to-get-distracted phase, I am not much affected
by it. One reason could be I post less on twitter. So have less post posting
anxiety of counting RTs and reactions to it :-)
And BTW the rule for FB applies to HN as well. But somehow HN is far less
addictive (and not at all in that bad way) than FB. Typically my evenings are
for HN. And of course, I am so thankful I have it. As it offsets the effects
of not being in the know of the tech Industry, because of not going to a place
to work.
Family:
I don't have a very strict rules. So my family keeps on walking in all the
time. Particulatly its summer now and kids have vacations. I don't mind it, if
I am doing some communication kind of work, or (ironically) if I am too deep
into my code. The way, I interact with family, does not put any pressure on
me, when compared to say communicating very formally. So I could be answering
them, while I am in the deepest recesses inside my mind, solving a coding
problem.
On the other hand, If I am frustrated, by failed efforts of not being able to
concentrate hard enough then that's another matter. Then I am quite irritable,
and I share that with my family as well, and ask them not to disturb me.
I am very thankful to my wife here. Who has almost mastered the art of
communicating with me during work with minimal impact :-)
Advantages:
Advantages are many. Main thing is that, your time is yours. You love the
freedom. And would never want to trade it with commute-to-work if possible.
All the ones which the Matt's essay mentions apply, e.g. afternoon show
movies, kids can walk in with their codecademy.com doubts (that's one of their
summer tasks BTW :-)), easily able to attend to a need by a family person
(e.g. medical need, which happened last month).
Also the main thing i.e. work, also gets done very well. And if you can focus,
you will be very very productive. As I said above, I am very satisfied if I
have had a day of 4-5 hours of coding.
Disadvantages:
Self doubt - Occasionally I have doubts, if I am missing on something by not
_going_ to work. Especially was a bit concerned about my business
communication skills suffering because of it. Written word over emails is
fine. But was worried about the verbal discussions part. This was true for the
initial year of working from home.
But now with the passage of time, I am more assured. I do have once in a few
months face to face meeting with my co-founder. Also there are other business
face to face meetings, with an approximate average of once a month.
I do socialize with people in the park, where I go for my runs. And I
discovered some of them, also work in the same mode.
So if you can manage to be productive and are able to _work_ , the
disadvantages are not many. Even philosophically speaking, why should the
information age workers work in the same way as that of industrial age
workers?
Edit: Format. HN text area input does not deal with new-lines in an intuitive
way - some times you have to give two.
~~~
donniezazen
How is work-from-home scenario in India? Are there Indian companies that make
you do interesting work and allow you to work from home? Or do you work for
western companies? Or is it more like freelancing? If yes, how is freelancing
working for you in India.
~~~
rehack
If I look at some of the people I know and my own experience, can say that
consulting folks get a better deal, when working for Western companies. Also
it works out better, from a work from home perspective. As local companies,
even if pay as well, have the the mindset of asking you to work from their
facilities.
But local Startups typically are more flexible, with sites like HasGeek[1]
showcasing some of the more suitable jobs from a work-from-home/free lancing
perspective.
Now to answer the question of interesting work. That depends of course. One
tends to pick up consulting work on some overall factors like rate etc. In my
case consulting work was mainly to support my product. (Thankfully now product
is in a shape, that it can support itself. So past few months I've had the
luxury of working on my own stuff). And so the work I do, thankfully, looks
very interesting to me.
Thanks for asking.
[1] [https://hasjob.co/](https://hasjob.co/)
edit: minor
~~~
donniezazen
If someone were looking into freelancer/indie-developer/consulting work in
India, where do you think one might find such culture in India. Where do these
folks hang out online?
~~~
rehack
I have noticed some good postings on that hasgeek link I gave in the above
comment.
Also I think, HN itself draws a lot of India based programmers.
At college level you also have things like topcoder.com and hackerrank.com
------
skkbits
While working for my previous employer I always ended up working more hours
when I worked from home. I just don't know why ? In office, I at least get up
for lunch, coffee but when worked from home I developed habit of working while
having lunch and not putting away laptop. I guess it requires a lot of
discipline to work from home and manage yourself as if its actual office.
------
sync
Author mentions SelfControl [1], which is great, but a bit rough.
I'd recommend Focus [2] instead -- much nicer experience, and I believe it's
made by a fellow HNer.
[1] [http://selfcontrolapp.com/](http://selfcontrolapp.com/) [2]
[http://heyfocus.com/](http://heyfocus.com/)
~~~
taylorlapeyre
I don't think it needs to be anything that complicated.
[https://github.com/taylorlapeyre/gsd](https://github.com/taylorlapeyre/gsd)
------
fideloper
I both work from home and keep (almost) the same guitar next to my desk. ^5
Distractions are everywhere, but overall more work gets done over the open-
office environment I was coming from. I don't really have too much ADD during
work hours anyway, I can focus in. Probably not for everyone, but definitely
is for me.
------
lucb1e
> I [...] find my Twitter app mysteriously appearing in front of me, having
> been launched by my treacherous hands during a moment of thought
This is pure gold. I was beginning to think I had a pretty serious
concentration problem, but it seems it's actually more normal. Good to know.
------
jmzbond
I think commute time is another important consideration here. For me, the
commute some days can be 3 hours round trip. Which means that by working from
home, I can afford distractions, and being a little less disciplined, and
still being overall much more productive!
------
mattdanger
I've been a full time dev from home for 6 years. I leave the house and go to
the gym or meet with friends for a few hours every day. If I don't, I get stir
crazy.
------
ciganoyer
i work better after i shower. so, showering is important.
~~~
mcguire
Food can substitute for sleep. A shower can substitute for sleep. But food
cannot substitute for a shower.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Random thoughts on a PGP based social network - zemanel
http://zemanel.eu/random-thoughts-on-a-pgp-based-social-network
======
RiderOfGiraffes
FWIW - Doesn't load for me on either of the platforms I have easy access to
right now.
~~~
zemanel
direct link: [http://www.slideshare.net/MyCatStoleMyPPT/pgp-based-
social-n...](http://www.slideshare.net/MyCatStoleMyPPT/pgp-based-social-
network)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
The HPV Vaccine Doesn’t Deserve Its Reputation. Get It for Your Kids - bitcuration
http://vitals.lifehacker.com/the-hpv-vaccine-doesn-t-deserve-its-reputation-get-it-1748529758
======
DrScump
This is a really sloppy article with a number of factual errors:
1) there is not "a vaccine", there are SEVERAL, each with different spans of
effect.
2) "a vaccine with no serious safety issues, that _prevents cancer_." Um no,
not nearly that simple. Not all such cancers are caused by HPV. What _would_
be true to say, assuming perfect efficacy, would be "a vaccine with no known
safety issues (true enough: since it's a genetic vaccine, unlike an influenza
vaccine) that prevents cancer _caused by an HPV strain that is targeted by the
vaccine_ IF the full course and schedule of treatment is followed."
3) "Human Papillomaviruses cause several cancers, including the cervical
cancer that kills 4,000 women each year." Actually, cervical cancer can occur
absent any HPV infection.
4) "Most people get the HPV virus" is wrong. Most _American women_ show
exposure. Not the same thing.
---
The problem with HPV vaccines is not in the science, it's in the _marketing._
If you were a parent who followed the "expert" instructions from the
beginning, here is what happens:
1) You have your child get Cervarix. Then get it again a few months later.
Then again a few months later. OK, great, now that all that money is spent,
she is protected, right? Um, not exactly. She is protected from Types 16 and
18 (assuming perfect efficacy).
2) Gardasil comes out. It protects against _four_ strains -- the course of
treatment you've already paid for and executed over 6 months is already
obsolete. Now, you do _another_ course of 3 injections over _another_ 6 months
to add protection from Types 6 and 11. Now, a year, 6 shots, and thousands
later, she is protected from 4 types.
3) Gardasil 9 comes out. It protects against _nine_ strains -- the courses of
treatment you've already paid for and executed over 6 months are _again_
already obsolete. Now, you do _another_ course of 3 injections over _another_
6 months to add protection from Types 31, 33, 45, 52, and 58. Now, a year and
a half, 9 shots, and _more_ thousands later, she is protected from 9 types.
But there are _13 types_ that we _know of_ that cause cervical cancer alone;
other subtypes could end up causing cervical or other cancers as well. So you
_know_ she is unprotected from at least four more cancer-causing subtypes...
and, no doubt, you will be a sucker who buys another course of treatment
later.
This is Planned Obsolescence that makes 20th-century Detroit look like
amateurs. GlaxoSmithKline and Merck thank you for your gullibility and
generosity.
Anyway, ditch this article. The FDA has a better info page here:
[http://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/causes-
prevention/risk/in...](http://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/causes-
prevention/risk/infectious-agents/hpv-vaccine-fact-sheet#q5)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
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RMS: A GNU manual, like a course in history, is not meant to be a “safe space” - rhabarba
https://sourceware.org/ml/libc-alpha/2018-05/msg00017.html
======
eesmith
We all have and want "safe spaces".
I'm pretty sure that Stallman wants an FSF conference to be a safe space where
he doesn't have to hear people talking about "Linux" instead of "GNU/Linux",
or praising software hoarders.
Instead, "safe space" is all too often used to mean "I want to do something
and won't let you stop me by saying it shouldn't be done here."
------
rekado
I think it would be good to stop considering the opinions of RMS as worthy of
discussion as long as they don't pertain to matters of free software. (I say
this as a GNU maintainer.)
Unfortunately, GNU has a number of people who like to argue, and who like to
argue fervently about and against simple and little measures to bring GNU a
tiny step closer to a more welcoming environment for other people.
------
erric
Related YC thread here:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17015644](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17015644)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Amazon's growth is a systemic risk to Seattle - crabasa
http://www.geekwire.com/2015/commentary-amazons-unprecedented-growth-is-too-risky-for-seattle/
======
ethanbond
Interesting, and I think Seattle is at least vaguely aware of this. It's worth
noting that in recent years tons of other companies have been setting up shop
in the area.
I know Facebook's second largest office is here, Palantir just opened an
office, and it seems every week or so I hear of another SV company opening a
satellite. That's not to say this isn't a real problem, but Amazon's success
(and how frickin' awesome Seattle is) is attracting other people to cushion
the blow.
An important note here is that the revenue sources and the markets for these
are very diverse. The 5-10 notable companies with notable presence have
probably 5-10 mostly discrete markets driving their growth.
Silicon Valley, on the other hand, has hundreds of companies but 90%+ are
entirely dependent on ads (or the ad bubble, depending on which side of that
fence you're on).
Any thoughts on how this plays into the risk calculus?
~~~
stephengillie
Amazon has 24,000 workers in Seattle and is building office space for 70,000
more. Why?
* Are they relocating 70,000 workers from other areas?
What areas? Why would they relocate these workers?
* Are they adding 70,000 new jobs?
It's possible that Amazon is planning to expand. I have no idea.
* Are they building office space without intending on using it?
Amazon would have to have a very good reason for doing this. Maybe they plan
on starting up a lot of business units and doing a lot of churn-y startup-y
things? Maybe they plan on renting it out? Maybe they're just sinking money
into Real Estate to retain their no-profit image?
------
lothlorien
This brings up an interesting question: how should city planners make
decisions about long term infrastructure if their populations are unstable?
Will the trend of working for many companies for shorter periods of time, and
therefore perhaps moving more often, make certain city populations less stable
than others?
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Vaccinating the World's Top Predators May Be the Only Way to Save Them - DiabloD3
http://motherboard.vice.com/read/vaccinating-the-worlds-top-predators-may-be-the-only-way-to-save-them
======
ars
They should do it.
Almost every extinction I've read about was caused at the end by an infection
of some kind (fungus, parasite, virus, etc). Sure there might have been other
factors that weakened the animal or plant, but the nail in the coffin seemed
to always be an infection.
Hunting and other animal predators can massively reduce the numbers, but
extinct to zero almost always seemed to me to be an infection at end. Without
that they seem to hold on at low numbers, but not gone.
~~~
asciimo
That may have been true before human beings conquered the Earth. Here are
sixty more recent extinctions:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Species_made_extinct_b...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Species_made_extinct_by_human_activities)
~~~
enupten
Brace yourself for the HN downvotes!
------
pvaldes
The video can have another hidden meaning (apart that the constatation that
humans are inherently stupid). This ill tiger is acting like a poisoned
predator. The fact is that top predators are being systematically erradicated
in a lot of places and to blame a virus as main cause is as convenient as
naive.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYN0z52x4pw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYN0z52x4pw)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLaLUyH4-vo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLaLUyH4-vo)
9 of each 10 wild lions living in Africa 60 years ago were exterminated in
just one human generation. Our generation. We will not save them only with
vaccines.
------
sswaner
Maybe NOT vaccinating any of us real top predators may be the best way to save
the rest of the predators.
------
joshuapants
Could vaccinating these animals effect evolution in some way? Species have to
die out for new species to come to the forefront; is it right for us to try
and change that? My impulse is to say, "Yes, vaccinate them and hopefully
eradicate this virus," but there is always that second thought.
~~~
SapphireSun
What do you think is the downside? Affecting evolution is kind of the point
(we don't want them to go extinct).
~~~
joshuapants
What would be the downside of having dinosaurs around? What would be the
downside of me being a Homo habilis and carving this message into the side of
a large rock?
Whenever humans meddle with the environment there are drastic unintended
consequences. I get it, they're charismatic animals and that's probably why
I'm being downvoted, but I don't think this is a particularly unreasonable
dissenting opinion.
~~~
Mz
_What would be the downside of having dinosaurs around?_
Dinosaurs couldn't possibly still be around. They existed in an era with a
much more dense atmosphere and a much higher concentration of oxygen (30% vs
16%, iirc). The type of lung they had and the size of body they had -- they
would suffocate here in our current atmosphere. It would be like a really bad
case of altitude sickness.
I think that's a very different scenario from what this article talks about,
where humans have basically created this virus by domesticating dogs and
having a fairly homogenous population of domesticated animals globally and now
there are several billion humans...etc....and it is killing wild animals that
shouldn't be all getting exposed to the same illness.
I really think this is a very different thing from natural extinction of
dinosaurs.
------
ForHackernews
Wait, but what if the lions get autism?
~~~
Raphmedia
A tiger with down syndrome made the news a while back.
[http://www.pbh2.com/wtf/meet-kenny-an-inbred-white-
tiger/](http://www.pbh2.com/wtf/meet-kenny-an-inbred-white-tiger/)
~~~
freshyill
Except that Down syndrome isn't the result of inbreeding. Down syndrome is a
very specific genetic disorder.
That's a dumbed-down explanation from a third-rate viral site, which exists
solely to generate clicks from Facebook, and not an actual medical or
scientific description of the tiger's condition.
------
Mz
I am kind of moderately anti-vax, but reading the article makes me feel this
is worth a shot because of this:
_Previous attempts to control the spread of CDV into wild populations focused
on stopping the virus at the presumed source—domestic dogs. Unfortunately,
research now shows that top predators are probably contracting CDV from
smaller wild animals that act as intermediaries. The simplest solution,
then—ensuring that humans vaccinate their pets—may no longer be an effective
option._
Edit: So admitting to being moderately anit-vax is adequate reason for being
downvoted to hell, even though it was given as a qualifier to strengthen my
statement that this plan to vaccinate big cats sounds like it has merit.
Wow.
~~~
mc32
I'm curious what is the basis for being anti-vax? Is there science behind that
notion? To me it appears irrational, but I'm up for an alternative take out of
curiosity.
Sometimes I wonder why people with this conviction dont just move to locations
of low vaccination. I hear places in SE Asia, some parts of Africa have low
vaccination rates, more out of poverty than conviction, but low rates non the
less
~~~
Mz
I have a deadly, incurable medical condition for which an annual flu vax is
routinely prescribed. I was diagnosed late in life, just before I turned 36.
Doctors told me bluntly "People like you don't get well. Symptom management is
the name of the game." But it is genetic, so I was born with it, so I felt
strongly that now that we knew why I was always sickly, we should be able to
do a better job of dealing with my health than the years before that when I
knew something wasn't right but did not know what and doctors acted like I was
a hypochondriac.
In part due to happenstance, in part because doctors were not really doing
much for me, I sort of fell into a lot of alternative med stuff. I began
getting gradually healthier, even though I had spent a year at death's door.
All of the people who were actually helping me get stronger while doctors
wrote me off for dead were very strongly anti-vax.
The first two or three years following my diagnosis, when I was prescribed the
flu shot, my doctor said 'Sign here and roll up your sleeve." and gave it to
me right then and there. Then one year my check-up was a few weeks before the
vaccine was available, so he wrote me a prescription. By then, I was already
seeing a lot of gains from the "crazy" alternative med stuff I was doing. It
was easy enough to just not get that prescription filled. I haven't had
another vaccine since then.
Fourteen years ago, I nearly died and spent 3.5 years in bed. Now, I walk four
or more hours a day and I am gradually getting my life back.
I am not on some campaign to convince people that vaccines are bad. I don't
have strong feelings one way or the other. For complex reasons, I happen to be
in a position where I can reasonably comfortably fence-sit on this issue and
not develop a strong opinion. But, as things stand now, I don't plan to get
any more flu shots. I think I am better off using other tactics to protect my
health.
~~~
danudey
Flu vaccines aren't about protecting your health, they're about protecting
everyone's health. By not vaccinating, you're contributing to the elimination
of herd immunity[1], ensuring that people who _cannot_ vaccinate for whatever
reasons (too young, compromised immune system, egg allergy, etc) are at a
significantly higher risk of contracting the disease and putting their lives
at risk.
Unfortunately, this isn't one of those situations where you can fence-sit,
because fence-sitting means you don't get vaccinated, which undermines public
health and allows for the accelerated spread of diseases that can cripple or
kill other people.
[1]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity)
~~~
hga
Partly disagree in this case.
So few people take the flu vaccine that there's no possibility of establishing
general herd immunity, even if the experts guess right every flu season (this
year they didn't for the Northern Hemisphere, or at least the US). On the
smaller scale it's wise, e.g. now that I'm living with my 81 year old father,
partly to help take care of him, that's an additional reason I take the
vaccine.
~~~
Retric
Targeted herd immunity works even at low levels. (Ex: staff at nursing homes.)
The benifit it simply exponential (Assuming the vaccine is not 100% effective
but transmission chances are low.)
------
enupten
Very sad, and yet, sadder still is that we don't see ourselves for the locusts
we've come to be.
~~~
civilian
So, have you got a solution?
~~~
enupten
I don't, really; the obvious one of using unregulated power, bring in far too
much chaos, and hence useless.
I'm actually surprised that this view is so unpopular here...
~~~
civilian
I dunno, your statement is kind of anti-growth. Calling humans locusts, at
least to me, brings the image of some greeny who would advocate genocide for
the sake of the planet.
~~~
enupten
Sorry, I guess I should fully weigh the connotations of the words I use.
I certainly am not Anti-Growth; but I do believe that per-capita Growth can be
accomodated with a decrease in the nominal economy. I think, as yet, the only
known, surefire way of doing this is by improving education (esp. that of
Women) and the economy.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
The planets of our solar system viewed in the Moon's orbit - ukdm
http://www.geek.com/articles/geek-cetera/the-planets-of-our-solar-system-viewed-in-the-moons-orbit-2012084/
======
derefr
Oh, I interpreted this headline slightly differently--I was expecting to see a
set of epicycle-orbit-diagrams given the Moon as the center of the Solar
system.
~~~
dddddannyyyyy
For diagrams with Earth as the center, see:
<http://www.dynamicdiagrams.com/work/orrery/>
Launch the Flash simulation, click on Tychonian, and trace a planet. Venus is
unexpected.
------
Steuard
This is neat to see, though I'll admit I was hoping to see broader views of
what the sky would look like if, say, Jupiter or Saturn were that close to us.
If you're interested in a direct size comparison like this, I've recently made
a poster for our campus planetarium that shows all the planets at once. It's
CC licensed, so you're welcome to print your own copy:
<http://www.slimy.com/~steuard/teaching/solarsystem/>
------
kitsune_
I've recently bought my first telescope, a 6" reflector. I'm glad I bought it
instead of a new iPad or Retina MacBook.
I fear that with the current urbanization trends, in the near future most
people will never live to see a dark night sky.
Considering that astronomy played a huge role in early human history and
civilization, I think we're losing a huge part of the human experience.
~~~
ChuckMcM
Wayne Rosing has [1] a company that put telescopes out into places with good
viewing conditions, a camera sensor, and an internet connection. Scheduling
time on his 'mini' telescopes was pretty easy at one time.
[1]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Las_Cumbres_Observatory_Global_...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Las_Cumbres_Observatory_Global_Telescope_Network)
------
Kilimanjaro
Extend your arm with a quarter between your thumb and index. That's the moon.
Now take a coaster in your hand. That's our earth as seen from the moon.
------
leeoniya
also of interest
[http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cc/Star-
size...](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cc/Star-sizes.jpg)
[http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/46/Planet-
st...](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/46/Planet-star-
sizes-01.jpg)
------
netcan
It would be pretty cool to be a moon orbiting Jupiter
~~~
pavel_lishin
Has anyone done the math on what would happen if we were? Would the heat
coming from Jupiter be enough to keep Earth warm enough for life?
~~~
harold
Jupiter's radiation belts make for a very inhospitable place.
[http://www.astrobio.net/exclusive/3010/hiding-from-
jupiters-...](http://www.astrobio.net/exclusive/3010/hiding-from-jupiters-
radiation)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
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Modern-day 'Yellow Peril' of Google's Chinese links is just the same old racism - saligne
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jul/17/google-peter-thiel-yellow-peril-racism-tech
======
nutcracker46
More fascist propaganda from the far right extremists in power in the USA. The
situation has nothing to do with treason nor goes much beyond racist demands
to "go back to Asia where you belong."
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Say Hello to Cortana, Microsoft’s Siri Equivalent - btimil
http://www.gamerevolution.com/news/say-hello-to-cortana-microsofts-siri-equivalent-24441
======
parfe
I hope Microsoft decides to target Google Now instead of Siri. Google Now
provides so much more depth than a voice interface; Siri offers so little in
comparison. Siri works well as a voice activated personal assistant (that I
rarely see people use).
Based on search history, emails, and location Google Now provides information
before you need to search for it. It happens to have a voice activated
interface available. I'd really like to see Microsoft do more than creating a
voice activated app for setting alarms and searching yelp with Cortana. The
screenshot looks promising and the author probably made the Siri connection
himself so I feel hopeful.
~~~
delinquentme
I hope they do exactly the opposite. Weve got these behemoths literally
pecking at one another over * THE SAME PRODUCT * ... why? They've got massive
research expenses... and this is how they invest their money. _facepalm_
~~~
neotek
Because competition drives innovation. We wouldn't have Chrome today if nobody
had bothered competing against IE. We wouldn't have Google if nobody thought
they could do better than Altavista.
------
bitwize
What's next, GLaDOS on our Steamboxes?
"GLaDOS?"
"I hate you."
"Bring up _Team Fortress 2_ "
"Wouldn't you prefer a nice game of chess? Or how about 'Pass the Hot Deadly
Neurotoxin'?"
------
anonymfus
_> The Verge reports that _
So, The Verge's article was submitted to HN too and got 4 points:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7335717](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7335717)
~~~
ethana
Submitted at noon. _Everyone_ left for lunch.
------
Uhhrrr
Possible branding problem: Cortana the Halo character goes insane after seven
years.
~~~
abshack
Forced obsolescence -- Microsoft learned from Windows XP.
------
madsushi
I can see it now.
"OK, Cortana, show me how to get to Mars."
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCCk1atehQc](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCCk1atehQc)
------
MadManE
A bit of a side-note, but calling something an "equivalent" in this kind of
circumstance is a bit of a misnomer, I think. "Competitor", sure. But
"equivalent" implies some sort of interchangeability to me.
~~~
timdiggerm
What do you mean by "interchangeability"? Do they not want Cortana do all the
things Siri does?
~~~
tomkarlo
They want it to, but unless it does today, it's not an "equivalent" yet. It's
splitting hairs but the choice of that word implies they're equal in a way
that "Microsoft's answer to Siri" or "alternative to Siri" does not. It's an
implicit assessment of its relative capability.
------
TrainedMonkey
Nice Halo reference! Microsoft already has Kinect, so they are not starting
from scratch in terms of voice recognition/processing.
~~~
mikestew
> so they are not starting from scratch in terms of voice
> recognition/processing.
If my Kinect experience is any indicator, Microsoft may not be starting from
scratch, but it has a long way to go. Kinect voice recognition works well
enough to trick me into thinking that it's actually going to work this time,
and fails often enough that I feel like an idiot when I finally give up and
pick up a controller. I think I'm just going to unplug the damned thing, as it
serves no other real purpose for me.
~~~
Joeri
So, about the same as siri then.
------
Strilanc
Unintentional humor when they say
> will "take the form of a _circular animated_ icon instead of a female
> character." Aw, shucks!
> Here's a look at the program, courtesy of the aforementioned outlet.
Because I have noscript, what's "there" is nothing but firefox's _circular
animated_ progress ring.
------
classicsnoot
I think the idea of trapping human traits inside a mobile device will
eventually be a dead end. The interface with the device should be based on the
inherent nature of the device, utilizing its size, shape, and hardware for
sensory and spatial character and user dictated software for personality and
habits.
In this concept, you decide whether or not the device even talks. With
vibration, LED pulse, audio, and video at your disposal, who knows what kind
of interface works best? We seem to desperately want a 7 of 11 or whatever
from Star Trek. Personally, i like the way that computers and devices interact
with me, especially when it is on their terms. I know it is developed and
implemented by humans, but devices acquire character over time.
~~~
krapp
Part of the reason for mimicking human traits (particularly, in attempting to
read and emulate emotional cues) is to generate empathy for a device[1].
Consumers who form emotional attachments to and _converse_ with their devices,
so that at a subconscious level, they're seen as other _people_ and not mere
things, are more likely to remain loyal to that brand, and to trust the
content (or advertisements) that comes through it.
It will be driven less by "Star Trek" idealism and more by subtle attempts at
applied social engineering. Effects like the mirrors they've developed in
Tokyo which tweak your reflection to make you look happier[2] because happier
people shop more.
[1][http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2014/01/20/should_ai...](http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2014/01/20/should_ai_makers_be_legally_responsible_for_emotionally_manipulating_customers.html)
[2][http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2013/08/07/incendiary_r...](http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2013/08/07/incendiary_reflection_mirrors_make_you_look_happier_than_you_are_so_you.html)
~~~
classicsnoot
I understand the empathy factor, but i believe it is misguided. The devices
are not human; they never will be. Human, as a construct, is something that
has developed over a long time based on physical constraints and chance.
Applying the same logic, by choice, to devices is the point i am trying to
discuss towards.
I think a device that purrs when you plug it in, makes a sharp whine when you
drop it, and uses its vibrations to communicate subtle emotional reflections
[buzzing for a little longer when you pick it up after down time, getting
excited in the morning and over clocking just a touch,etc] will generate
empathy and attachment to devices. The smart phone is uniquely capable of
transmitting a number of emotional reflections through a number of ways. The
voice element is so basic; an automated slave that you constrain to human
speech patterns. I think looking at the device as a creature then building
interactions from there.
------
basicallydan
Last time one of the big tech companies made a sci-fi reference for a new
product it was a failure :( remember Google Wave?
One of these days, someone will build our dream Sci-Fi future. At any rate,
Cortana is a good name.
~~~
dnautics
perhaps i'm geek-culture-ally handicapped here, but what did Wave reference?
~~~
latortuga
I believe it was a reference to the fictional communication system in Joss
Whedon's short-lived TV show, Firefly.
~~~
eieio
Oh wow, I made a comment the other day about how Wave always made me think of
Firefly. I had no idea that it was true.
In retrospect it makes complete sense.
------
rayiner
What's the offline story? Because its lame that I've got a 2.2 GHz quad core
in my phone but Google Now can't recognize simple voice commands without going
over the internet.
~~~
vetinari
Why don't you download the offline dictionary then? (Settings, Language and
Input, Voice Search, Offline speech recognition)
~~~
rayiner
I do have it. Still gives me errors like "can't connect to Google Now" when I
do stuff like send a text message using voice.
------
misnome
I know that circle thing is supposed to look like an eye, but I instantly see
it as... something else. Slightly unfortunate.
~~~
TheCoreh
I think that's just an unfortunate screenshot. It 's an animated spinning
circle, so it wont look like that in motion, just for a single frame.
------
rtfeldman
I wonder if Microsoft will ever again release a product that's meaningfully
_ahead_ of the curve, such that we see headlines about Apple and Google
putting out a "me too" product to catch up with MS.
------
jrockway
Speech recognition is not easy. It's pretty cool to see three large companies
spending research money to make our computers understand human language.
------
btbuildem
MS has a significant background in voice recognition, I expect they would
deliver a technically proficient product in that aspect.
------
caycep
The next version will be called Durandal...
~~~
astrange
One Durandal in a planetary network is bad enough. Having a clone on each
device? We'd all be dead in days.
(See you starside.)
------
robodale
I do like the name.
------
theChips69
Nerds
~~~
radley
Chicken
------
Nux
Cortana, Siri ... Who comes up with these names? Thank fsck for Watson.
~~~
radley
Cortana came from the mega-popular XBox game Halo. She was the AI who guided
the player around.
The name Siri is Norwegian, meaning "beautiful woman who leads you to
victory", and comes from the intended name for the original developer's first
child. - (Wikipedia)
~~~
tesseract
It's hard to imagine that the name Siri wasn't also an intentional reference
to the name of the company that originally developed and named it, SRI.
------
higherpurpose
Cortana sounds like a mouthful. Imagine saying "Cortana" everytime you want to
tell it something. And I imagine it would be even more embarassing to do it in
public than it is for saying "Siri".
~~~
nivla
Cortana is in reference to the AI of popular game Halo so its less awkward to
those who know the reference. Had Cortana come before Siri, saying Siri would
now have sounded silly. Most uncommon names sounds silly in the beginning but
it blends in as time passes.
Also from what I have read, you don't need to start a sentence with Cortana to
get its attention.
~~~
LukeShu
> Had Cortana come before Siri, saying Siri would now
> have sounded silly.
Well, "Siri" was already a name. Before Halo, "Cortana" wasn't.
~~~
Apocryphon
Cortana was a legendary sword.
~~~
kissickas
Just read up on that... the sword was called "Curtana."
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curtana](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curtana)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
The difference between the US and Europe - jseliger
http://meganmcardle.theatlantic.com/archives/2010/01/the_difference_between_the_us.php
======
josmala
Actually the things he pointed out where, A) London is really expensive city
to live, by European standards. B) Europeans do make different lifestyle
decisions.
B1) Its more energy efficient to dry things by hanging them to dry instead of
having a drier, so it saves nature. B2) Thinking about having lots of cable
channels is just a waste of money. When people spend their free time on
Internet. Or in sport activities. B3) I consider west European buildings as
crappy as what I've seen in TV from America. [I'm Scandinavian we have perfect
buildings, small but well insulated.] There are some basic things about saving
the world by not spending too much energy on cooling in the summer or heating
in the winter. And no size isn't everything. In some places LAND is so
expensive and building code requirements are such that you just cannot build
American style mac mansions here, and if you would build them the quality
requirements would make it multimillion dollar building. B4) the minimal
support that government gives for people who are jobless and already dropped
out of unemployment is enough for people to eat meat everyday. B5) Lunch issue
is two fold. In america do you pay 15USD per hour for mcDonalds worker? If not
its probably the reason why professionals don't buy as much service here its
just that some of the things that are really low wage in usa are not that that
low wage here, due to labor unions and government regulations. I have brought
in lunch at work just to save TIME, not save money. Damn stairs and slow
elevator...
Now the other way around. I hope you enjoy your 15USD per month 3.6Mb/s ,max
average 3GB per day mobile phone Internet ;)
------
arethuza
This is all based on London - which is exceptional both in terms of what is
considered a normal commute there and the cost of living there. Locals who are
based in London get paid a lot more than the rest of us who choose to live in
nicer parts of the UK.
My own view is that London is great to visit but I would never want to have a
job based there unless I was getting FU money, and even then I'd only do it
for a year or two.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Simple Facial Recognition Search Engine Can Track You Down Across the Internet - aspenmayer
https://onezero.medium.com/this-simple-facial-recognition-search-engine-can-track-you-down-across-the-internet-518c7129e454
======
aspenmayer
Product is PimEyes
[https://pimeyes.com/en/](https://pimeyes.com/en/)
Original title was too long. It was:
This Simple Facial Recognition Search Engine Can Track You Down Across the
Internet
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Vayable Guides Travelers Off the Beaten Path - timr
http://www.theatlantic.com/sponsored/goldman-sachs-progress/archive/2012/11/vayable-guides-travelers-off-the-beaten-path/265495/
======
waitwhat
_Vayable launched with 70 guides in April 2011 [...] Since then, the company's
been growing at a rate of 30 percent each week._
30% growth every week for 18 months would mean total growth by nearly a factor
of a trillion. This doesn't seem likely.
~~~
anateus
I think it's more likely that Vayable just "grew at the same rate", where
"rate" should really be "amount".
30% of 70 is 21 and April 2011 is about 86 weeks ago. 21*86 = 1806, so a rough
projection of 1876 guides. The vayable website promises "2000+ tours", which
with roughly that amount of guides with that projection actually makes sense
:)
------
tgrass
I'm driving down to Mexico City through Guadalajara in late December - just
signed up with Vayable and am thrilled to find a couple tours I hope to take
on the trip.
Thanks for the link.
[http://www.vayable.com/experiences/135-guachimontones-
tequil...](http://www.vayable.com/experiences/135-guachimontones-tequila)
~~~
jamievayable
Awesome, thanks for the support and let us know what you think!
~~~
tgrass
Will do.
------
ajju
My wife and I found some awesome tours/guides in Puerto Rico on Vayable when
we were there. Couldn't actually do a tour because it was literally last
moment, but I plan to check Vayable before each vacation now when I book my
hotel and flights!
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Docker user? Haven't patched Dirty COW yet? Got bad news for you - nwrk
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/11/01/docker_user_havent_patched_dirty_cow_yet_bad_news/
======
gtjay
As I've discused before, seccomp can block ptrace and thus this VDSO-based
attack (and currently does by default in some distros). Shameless self-link to
that post:
[https://medium.com/@gtrevorjay/consider-containers-a-case-
st...](https://medium.com/@gtrevorjay/consider-containers-a-case-study-of-
cve-2016-5195-2752efe4183b)
Containers are not a security panacea. However, it is equally erroneous to say
they don't add layers to defense-in-depth.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Apple Using iCloud to Lock in Users - acak
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-10-12/apple-using-icloud-to-lock-in-users-after-online-misfires-tech.html
======
warmfuzzykitten
Yes and no. What they're actually doing is reducing friction. People have more
than one information device but they have only one set of data that belongs to
them. Up to now, each device needed to be synched with every other device in
order to make the user's world consistent. But many Apple users have all three
of Mac, iPhone and iPad, each of which serves a different context. Apple's
success created the problem, and iCloud is the solution. The fact that non-
Apple devices don't share in the iCloud world may be perceived by outsiders as
vendor lockin. For insiders, it's a solution.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
How to Create a Firefox Plugin (hacker-friendly javascript framework) - trevelyan
http://blog.popupchinese.com/?p=19
======
catch23
firefox plugins aren't really all that hard to begin with. i'm not sure if
you're gaining much with this framework
~~~
nick007
firefox plugins are actually pretty tough to get started with if you are new
to them, even for the adept hacker. there's just not that much in the way of
introductory documentation out there. and sure all plugins are open source,
but it isn't that fun to try and reverse engineer someone's plugin just to
figure out how things work.
i really like the looks of this! thanks for posting.
~~~
xtho
Not to forget that some of the tutorials and examples floating through the
Internet are outdated.
------
daleharvey
just glancing over the instructions it already seemed harder to get working
than jetpack(<https://jetpack.mozillalabs.com/>) and they seem to have the
same goals
~~~
joepestro
Jetpack is an additional extension install for users.
This framework looks like it builds native extensions without an extension
needing to be preinstalled - at least until jetpack is shipped with ff.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Symfony 4 Released - SnaKeZ
https://symfony.com/4
======
SnaKeZ
Here the post:
[https://symfony.com/blog/hello-symfony-4](https://symfony.com/blog/hello-
symfony-4)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Love Is Like Cocaine (2016) - dnetesn
http://nautil.us/issue/33/attraction/love-is-like-cocaine
======
gaspoweredcat
great article. due to various mental health issues i dont really have the full
range of emotion that others do so "love" is something thats out of my sphere
of experience however i have experimented with drugs and this actually helped
me understand why people get so hung up on relationships
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Accessing the Accelerometer and Gyroscope in JavaScript - seminatore
http://blogs.adobe.com/cantrell/archives/2012/03/accessing-the-accelerometer-and-gyroscope-in-javascript.html
======
untog
Does anyone know if it is possible to get meaningful movement measurements
from the combination of these two? i.e. get an initial fix via GPS, then
measure movement from that point?
I'm imagining that it isn't (because no-one has done it yet) but would love to
be surprised.
------
tocomment
Can you guys paste the javascripts I need to do this? I couldn't find it in
the video. Will this work in the iPhone?
------
tocomment
Does this work on iPad or iPhone?
------
growt
doesn't work for me on android 2.3.x on an LG P990.
~~~
VMG
_Now that you can access motion sensors in both Google Chrome and mobile
browsers, I decided to demo a couple of sample application which hook into the
accelerometer and gyroscope: [video]
Note that the compass application only works on devices with gyroscopes (no
laptops that I know if), and requires iOS 5 or newer._
Sounds like chrome + iOS5 are required
edit: I take that back, it works (albeit ridiculously slow) on my galaxy s
with ICS stock browser
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
I failed a Twitter interview - mostelato
http://qandwhat.apps.runkite.com/i-failed-a-twitter-interview/
======
acchow
This question involves an "a-ha" moment (for the linear-time solution) and was
thus banned from interviews at Google last year.
Don't use questions involving eureka moments. They reveal nothing about the
candidate.
Edit: It should be noted that this question was used for a long time at
Google, Microsoft, and many other places. It's a terrible question.
~~~
asveikau
Is there a definition of ah-ha moment? Seems like what strikes one person as
an "ah-ha" insight might be a baseline assumption of another person's thought
process.
~~~
raverbashing
It means (I think) that the trough between the "good answer" and the "bad
answer" is too big. So basically either you know it or not and can't "grow"
toward a solution easily
I hate this kind of problems.
------
DigitalSea
No offence to Twitter, but this is a seriously bad way of hiring developers.
What are you trying to recruit mathematics scholars as developers? When will
companies like Twitter learn not all great developers are math geniuses? I
didn't even get a college education to get where I am, I failed maths in
school as well, but I can code, so what does that mean? I think it means
nothing in the greater scheme of things. By the sounds of it the author got a
better position in the end, I'd rather be working at Amazon who are solving
much better problems than Twitter ever will likely solve anyway.
If a company (no matter how great they were) tried asking me these kinds of
questions, I would immediately stop the interview and thank them for the
opportunity.
~~~
onion2k
"this is a seriously bad way of hiring developers"
We can't reasonably assume that Twitter uses this sort of question in _all_
their developer interviews. We don't have enough data for that. Perhaps this
guy was going for a role where solving problems quickly and under pressure was
a key requirement. If that were the case, this is pretty much a perfect
interview question.
~~~
smsm42
I have hard time imagining what position, at least if we're talking about
software engineering, would require solving abstract toy problems in a
timeframe of less than an hour without a chance to ever go back and improve
your solution. I'd say it's "did you see this problem before" kind of
question. Which means Twitter probably lost a capable and smart hire because
he couldn't quickly give a perfect answer to useless puzzle (unless of course
he was hired to repair the roof in Twitter's office and solving this puzzle is
required for Twitter to survive the rainy season). Hardly a "perfect" way.
~~~
etler
Twitter interview puzzle creator?
~~~
smsm42
You can take months to create puzzles, there's no pressure here.
------
johnchristopher
Google cache:
[http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?client=ubuntu&c...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&q=cache%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fqandwhat.apps.runkite.com%2Fi-
failed-a-twitter-interview%2F&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8)
It's off-line for me and asking something about installing a server.
~~~
jeffdm
Hi creator of runkite.com here -
We currently host development environments so seeing this on the front page
was a bit crazy. We just couldn't handle the load.
Sorry about that - working on making it better.
------
huhtenberg
> _The next day I showed this question to my TA, who 's a PhD student in
> theoretical computer science. After 40 minutes he was also stuck with
> nothing._
That just doesn't speak well of this particular PhD. The one-pass solution is
rather obvious. I hate puzzle-based interviews with passion, but this is
actually a very reasonable question and it does help to tell apart people with
"theoretical" computer science skills from those with a bit more practical
experience.
~~~
JanezStupar
While I do not think that the problem is hard in a sense that if you came to
me and wanted it solved for you I couldn't do it. I do think that it is a
horrible interview question.
I fail to see why one would ask this kind of question and what one would take
away from the answer.
How does being able to solve problem like this help make Jack Dorsey richer
and more respected? How does it help Twitter users have a better experience?
How does it help the interviewer assess whether this dude on the other side
will make his life more bearable by not shitting all over the carpet?
I think it is mostly a form of geek bullying and intellectual mastrubation for
its own sake. I have a message for the people running companies where these
kinds of hiring practices are taking place. You have some insane geeks on the
loose and you should catch them and lock them into the darkest dungeon as they
__will__ ruin your company.
~~~
huhtenberg
It's a _test_ question, duh. You struggle with it - you clearly lack field
experience. It doesn't make you an idiot, it doesn't disqualify you as a
programmer, it merely tests whether you have a particular basic skill or not.
------
djhworld
I had two phone screenings with Amazon recently and they decided not to
continue with my application.
It was depressing to me and I felt down for quite a bit, mainly because on the
second phone screening I just couldn't do the coding task asked. My mind went
blank and I probably sounded like a 5 year old struggling through the simplest
of questions.
It's my own fault though, I just got more and more stressed over the preceding
weeks reading algorithms textbooks and "CareerCup" tests I think I just burned
out.
I totally understand that top companies like Amazon and Google can afford to
be ruthless and choosy in their interview process, after all, they're top
companies for a reason, but I guess it just wasn't for me
~~~
undershirt
I applied to a couple jobs in the bay area and didn't do well. I had about the
same reaction you did.
The result was that I started working really hard on side projects to see if I
was really capable of working up there. That was the beginning of last year,
and that pattern of work hasn't stopped. I've learned and built a lot.
About phone interviews though, I've been requesting Google Hangout interviews
in place of them. And I've been a lot more comfortable I think because of the
face-to-face interaction. Something to think about.
------
pjan
I really don't get these coding interviews.
I can't imagine a construction engineering company asking their applicants to
do a construction calculation in an interview, and in this case, bad design
can actually kill people (as opposed to a bug at twitter).
What else does it bring apart from some amusement to the interviewer?
------
noelwelsh
Twitter failed you with that interview. Unless the job actually does involve
performing computational parlour tricks.
~~~
brent_noorda
Agreed. Instead of "I Failed a Twitter Interview" you could have just as well
called this "Twitter Failed an Interview with Me."
There's no telling why Twitter didn't make the job offer, but it's probably
not because you didn't get the optimal solution to this one particular
problem. More likely, Justin just didn't feel that chemistry that made him
fall in love with you. Had he felt that immediate bond, he would have
unconsciously overlooked any number of sub-optimal answers.
Maybe he didn't like the way you pronounced "max'm'm". More likely, and I'll
put money on this, he was in the middle of doing something he thought was
important when he was pulled out of it at the last minute to do an interview
that some idiot forgot to remind him about, and for a position he doesn't
think really needs to be filled, and in any case doing this stupid interview
pales in comparison to the task he just got pulled out of, and so he was
already in a funk, at which point it wouldn't matter how you answered because
Justin was just plain in a rotten mood.
------
softbuilder
It's not you, it's them. A rather brilliant acquaintance of mine did the whole
fly-to-SF song and dance with them and didn't make the cut either. (He got
snagged by a wonderful startup soon after though.)
What is important to understand here is that these processes are highly
variable and there is an element of luck involved. It's just the nature of a
human-driven process and a complicated organization.
------
antirez
I did not read the final solution but this was a little stimulating quiz, so
this is my Ruby solution:
[https://gist.github.com/antirez/7231559](https://gist.github.com/antirez/7231559)
~~~
antirez
ehm, no it is not so simple :-) I'll try better after lunch!
~~~
pearkes
Thank you for posting this and demonstrating how absolutely pointless these
questions are for finding qualified candidates.
For those of you who didn't notice, antirez[1] makes a data storage system
called "Redis"[2]
[1]: [https://twitter.com/antirez](https://twitter.com/antirez)
[2]: [http://redis.io/](http://redis.io/)
~~~
antirez
;-) I'm back, and I hopefully fixed it in the gist, adding a second pass
(still O(N) but more complex implementation). Probably there are simpler ways,
and indeed now I'm going to read the solution proposed in the blog post.
Edit: now that I read the solution, what I found is indeed the two passes
solution and not the optimal one with the two pointers going in opposite
directions.
------
jjacobson
So glad Twitter is continuing the tradition of useless interview questions.
------
susi22
FYI this algorithm is called the "Water filling algorithm" and is used
extensively in Communications to optimize the allocation power for channels.
You can get a solution with simple Lagrangian method (which I believe is the
linear solution).
[http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/~dtse/Chapters_PDF/Fundamentals...](http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/~dtse/Chapters_PDF/Fundamentals_Wireless_Communication_chapter5.pdf)
(pages 183 - 185)
------
curiousDog
Did they actually call you back with a rejection? Sorry if I missed that in
the article. Anyway, at the end of the day, what matters is that you solved it
on your own :)
~~~
mostelato
Yeah, I received a rejection letter the next day. Solving it on my own
definitely made me feel better though!
------
JavascriptMan
This pseudo-code seems to be with only one pass no ? Can someone find a
counter-example ?
overall_max=0
index_of_overall_max=0
Second_max=0
index_of_second_max=0
Array_of_cumulated_Sum=0
Total=0
for i from left to right
if Height(i)>overall_max
//Water Area between new max and old max
Total+=overall_max*(i-index_of_overall_max+1)-(Array_of_cumulated_Sum(i)-Array_of_cumulated_Sum(index_of_overall_max))
overall_max=Height(i);
index_of_overall_max=i;
Second_max=0;
index_second_max=i+1;
else
if Height(i)>Second_max
//All the parts on second max is only to not miss the kept water at the end between the overall_max and another local max
Second_max=Height(i);
index_second_max=i
end
end if
Array_of_cumulated_Sum(i)=Array_of_cumulated_Sum(i-1)+Height(i)
end for
//At the end : water area between second max and overall max
Total += Second_max*(index_of_second_max-index_of_overall_max+1)-(Array_of_cumulated_Sum(index_of_second_max)-Array_of_cumulated_Sum(index_of_overall_max))
return Total
------
seg
Cheer up, kid. That Justin probably didn't even know what you were talking
about. Calculus is not for everybody. :-j
------
tiagobraw
Once I failed at a google interview... I got 2 answers right but I couldn't
answer a third math related question (because the time was over).
The recruiter asked me what was the maximum number of edges on a graph without
cycles.
When I was on my way home (in a bus) I had this "a-ha" moment.
Well, they lost a great computer scientist in their team! :P
------
granttimmerman
I have my phone interview with Twitter next week.
I remember last year I got a similar question from both Twitter and Fb. It's
really just a buckshot. Sometimes you'll get a problem that comes easy and
sometimes you'll be sitting there dumbstruck.
Best of luck with your future interviews.
------
etler
I think this is a terrible way to conduct a phone interview. I think about
code visually, and this is a very visual question, so thinking about this
entirely in my head is way harder than writing it down. I'd be worried that
having a computer in front of me would give the wrong impression, if typing
sounds are heard on the phone, and I wouldn't want to discount a potential
great developer just because they were too nervous to ask if it were ok to
grab a pen and paper. With all the ways we can communicate now, it seems
archaic to ask someone to think through and explain their code over the phone.
~~~
bpicolo
They generally have you code on a shared pad like collabedit. It's not over
the phone for that part.
------
iliaznk
I wonder if Jack Dorsey could solve rhat right.
------
dhruvarora
Wait. I fail to understand why this counts as a reason for rejection. You
attempted a solution, which the interviewer backed up (I assume if you were
heading in a completely incorrect direction, he would have told you that), you
showed quick thinking (connecting local maximas to the problem) as well as
coding competence and basic testing knowledge.
Is this not what Twitter desires through its interviews?Because time and again
I have heard that companies look and focus on people's thought processes more
than their exact results.
PS: I'm a college student so I'm really keen to know how important being 100%
accurate is.
------
isb
Algorithmic interview questions should ideally have multiple solutions of
varying complexity. The "brute force" solution should be obvious to anyone
competent enough. If they are able to code it up with reasonable clarity and
test cases, that is a good start (think of it as the fizzbuzz level). Good
candidates should be able to get to the "ideal/aha" solution with some hints.
In fact, that process reveals a lot about the candidate. If the candidate
doesn't "get" to the ideal solution on their own, it shouldn't be held against
them IMO.
------
muxxa
For a single pass from left to right, I think you need to maintain a counter
for each y-value:
[http://codepad.org/W16O9vUB](http://codepad.org/W16O9vUB)
I actually think this is a good interview question, as playing devils'
advocate and coming up with testcases that will break your initial code is a
key programming skill, rather than assuming it is done and moving along.
------
isb
In interviews and in general, it usually is a good idea to get a correct yet
inefficient solution and then try to optimize it. This usually yields better
insights in my experience. Here is a quadratic solution:
[https://gist.github.com/isbo/7239007](https://gist.github.com/isbo/7239007)
------
pencilcheck
I have coded up one pass solution in ruby, check it out!
[https://gist.github.com/pencilcheck/7252934](https://gist.github.com/pencilcheck/7252934)
A lot of solutions here doesn’t seem to take account of multiple puddles, my
solution does take that into account.
------
twiceaday
Here is a novel solution.
make stack
water = 0
for n in columns
while stack not empty and n > stack top
water += min(stack bottom, n) - stack top
pop stack
stack push n
------
bartkappenburg
This is a really nice and elegant solution:
[https://gist.github.com/orukusaki/bb189d9f69ad09e2cd5a](https://gist.github.com/orukusaki/bb189d9f69ad09e2cd5a)
------
paugay
Here is my solution in PHP:
[https://gist.github.com/paugay/7262417](https://gist.github.com/paugay/7262417)
------
Joister
Here's my attempt, in java.
[https://gist.github.com/Joist/7229807](https://gist.github.com/Joist/7229807)
------
xentronium
How will this solution work for cases like [1,2,1], when there will be no
water held?
~~~
Joister
His final solution will return 0.
------
igor47
you could solve this with a simple state machine; there's no reason to resort
to parlour tricks...
[https://gist.github.com/igor47/7228586](https://gist.github.com/igor47/7228586)
~~~
huhalu
try this test case ([5,1,0,1],1)
~~~
igor47
thanks! i updated the gist
([https://gist.github.com/igor47/7228586/revisions](https://gist.github.com/igor47/7228586/revisions)),
but the solution is not nearly as simple as before.
~~~
lelf
Fails for [3,0,1,0,2]
------
huangc10
imo, interesting and fun question. Difficult to solve on the spot but not bad
when you dive into it with a cup of coffee. Always just keep it simple.
------
stefan_kendall
This is an extremely common ACM question. This would heavily bias toward
anyone who has competed in the ACM, which is probably the worst metric for
hiring ever.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
A malicious module on npm - gburnett
https://blog.liftsecurity.io/2015/01/27/a-malicious-module-on-npm
======
bizzbuzz
now you've made me all paranoid, I hope you're happy
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Rebrand America - caiobegotti
http://mgmtdesign.com/flags/
======
core-questions
Most of these are absolutely terrible, or are political commentary in image
form. None of them look like something people would want to wave to represent
themselves and their nation.
As a non-American, absolutely none of these convey any sense of Americanism to
them at all.
Typical of modern art: all of it looks like it could have been created in MS
Paint in ten seconds by a high-school student.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
How Uber, valued at billions, was sent packing by a startup in Singapore - kschua
https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/cnainsider/uber-grab-singapore-ride-hailing-southeast-asia-private-hire-10630396
======
akhatri_aus
So it had nothing to do with Softbant, who also has a stake in Grab, asking
Uber to leave. The title implies Grab kicked their ass and its far from what
really happened.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
First free file transfer service for files up to 20GB - hshojaee
https://www.transferbigfiles.com
Now you can send files that are up to 20GB in size through any modern browser without flash or any other plugins. It's free.
======
hshojaee
For those interested to know more about this...we rebuilt TransferBigFiles.com
from scratch, wrote a new multi-threaded chunked uploader (which accomplishes
10x upload speed improvements - should be the fastest you have ever seen on
the net) and simplified the site tremendously with a new user interface. We
also updated our storage to be a hybrid solution that uses both our own
servers as well as Amazon S3.
The new site has been up for just over 1 day and we are seeing that the
typical user is now transferring 5x as much data than they used to. :-)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ron Rivest: Keys Under Doormats – Mandating Insecurity [video] - mzl
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqacHM6Wm0Q
======
Intermernet
This talk is (as expected) a very level headed summary of why exceptional
access in encryption is a _very bad idea_.
The only point I think it's worth adding to those in the talk (which may be
covered in the original paper) is one of temporal trust. That is, even if you
manage to convince yourself that there could be a way to safely solve the
technical problems of setting up exceptional access in the current world, and
you decide that all LE agencies that get access are currently trustworthy, and
you believe that other issues such as LE agency corruption and spying are
currently minimal to non-existent, There is no way to ensure that this "ideal"
(and somewhat naive) world will continue into the future.
I think any person or government that tries to argue that exceptional access
is a good idea either hasn't considered historical precedent, hasn't thought
the situation through to it's logical conclusion, or is being deliberately
disingenuous.
~~~
diskcat
b-but terrorists and pedophiles
~~~
a_imho
lovejoy's game: when you invoke lovejoy's law, you lost the argument
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
The trouble with Linux: it's just not sexy - theandym
http://www.techradar.com/news/software/operating-systems/the-trouble-with-linux-it-s-just-not-sexy-679859
======
retube
I'm not sure Windows is especially sexy either, altho Apple clearly is.
Linux will struggle for years to come in the corporate desktop market: as the
article suggests, the of cost of change is just too high. Secondly, Office has
not yet been matched by OO or similar. OO simply does not cut it for
enterprise. As much as I hate M$ and love Linux, if I'm doing heavy duty
spreadsheet work it has to be Excel.
In the personal desktop market Linux stands a better chance, but not much
more. It suffers from a lack of marketing. E.g. Apple wins hands-down with a
technically inferior product because it looks nice and they spend a bomb
sexing it up. And of course Windows is so ubiquitous Linux gets only a
fraction of the shelf space.
------
allenp
I'd say JoliCloud is probably the nicest linux I've seen:
<http://www.jolicloud.com/product/features>
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Twitter discussion – Docker threatening legal action over naming - avitzurel
https://twitter.com/kelseyhightower/status/775657952430596096?lang=en
======
wmf
Many trademark holders have a policy that you can't use their name as the
_prefix_ of the name of something else. So e.g. JavaCache would not be allowed
but Cache4Java would be. This reserves the prefix for official products which
in theory reduces potential consumer confusion which in theory is the purpose
of trademarks.
And a name like docker-marklogic is double doomed because both parts are
trademarks so you probably can't say marklogic-docker either.
------
winteriscoming
The title is misleading, IMO. Looking at the image of the mail conversation,
it looks like the author of the repo initiated a mail with docker legal team
asking if it's OK to use those names to which the docker team politely replied
it isn't allowed and also explained why. The author of the repo then goes on
twitter and curses them. Don't see docker doing anything wrong here.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: How do you handle billing by the day? - rquantz
Several prominent members of the HN community advocate billing <i>at least</i> by the day for freelancers/consultants. This is extremely appealing to me, and I've begun discussing changing to this billing structure with some of my existing clients.<p>That being said, I'm still not totally sure how this works. I believe I recall tpacek saying that any client who has any problems or bats an eye at this type of arrangement is pathological and should be avoided. I will acknowledge this is the case, but some of my apparently pathological clients have questions that I don't have really good answers for yet:<p><pre><code> Will you charge me for a day if I have a ten minute phone call/question for you?
What about 1 hour?
How will you handle emergencies if you're scheduled to work for someone else that day?
etc...
</code></pre>
It seems that when a client pays by the day they have a reasonable expectation that you can guarantee that they have your complete attention for the entire day. Earlier this week I actually had my first "by the day" billing engagement on a new project for an existing client. They were scheduled for Monday, and on Monday morning I sat down at my desk to start work for them, only to find a frantic email from a client whose webserver had apparently been hacked. I spent the morning cleaning up that mess, and it was close to noon by the time I got to start working on my supposedly only task for the day. Should I have charged my emergency client for a day's work (assuming I had negotiated that with them, which I hadn't yet) and then charge the client I had scheduled that day for a day's work as well? Or should I have called it a day when I had finished the cleanup, and told the originally scheduled client I would work on their stuff when I had another day free -- in this case, probably not until the new year?<p>Billing by the day sounds great, but there are a lot of edge cases that I'm not sure how to handle yet. Most of my clients at this point are pretty reasonable to work with, but they are small businesses with non-unlimited budgets.
======
1123581321
Good question. I'm new at it as well. My policy, which I am admittedly
experimenting with, is to count a 4+ hour day as one day. I also add up
partials and count them as a day when they hit four hours. So:
Monday: 2 hours.
Tuesday: 15 minutes.
Wednesday: 9 hours.
Thursday: 5 hours.
Friday: 3 hours.
adds up to three days plus 1.25 hours accruing. It still has issues like:
should this be explained to a client because it's confusing? What do I do
about accruals that never reach four? Does it encourage me to work close to
four hours per day, which is not the point of it?
Another method I've thought of, which I read on some company's blog, is to
assign people to ongoing projects who bill daily, and to also have a sweeper
who bills hourly on questions, emergencies and miscellany. I'm not sure if
clients would accept such a person's hourly exceeding the daily rate without
setting that expectation upfront.
It's hard to fit because the daily method is best for a developer who works to
a spec, turns the site over to someone else when done, and always leaves gaps
between projects to avoid any overlap due to deployment issues and other
problems like that.
And meanwhile, some freelancers I know are saying that weekly is all the
rage...
~~~
dylanhassinger
the 4+hour model is awesome. thanks for sharing
------
ishbits
Maybe not all types of contracting work for per day billing.
For me I think it works as I'm paid to deliver a functioning product prototype
that then goes to QA. Getting pulled into something urgent that required
immediate attention is rare, very rare. So I can pretty easily predict how
many hours I can devote a month out.
But in your case, do you have to declare which days you allocate to a
customer? I suppose if its sysadmin type stuff you may have a queue that the
customer expects you to get to on or by a certain day.
------
dylanhassinger
I have a friend who bills by the day, because it gives _more_ flexibility and
not less. His explanation: sometimes you have days where you only put in 2
hours, other times you have days where you put in 12. He chops a project up
into how many "days" he thinks it will take and runs with it.
Really the "days" becomes an arbitrary unit of measurement at that point,
which is really what "hours" are too but it's hard to sell that to clients
sometimes.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Plant your own tree in California - lasharela
Hi guys,
In case if someone wants to help California, we launched a website: https://treespond.com<p>In few clicks, you can plant your own trees in California's National Forests Damaged by wildfire.<p>Any Comments, Questions, Recomendations are appritiated.
======
greenyoda
Is the company for-profit or not-for-profit? If not-for-profit, are the
contributions tax-deductible? What percentage of the payment is actually the
cost of planting the tree and how much is administrative overhead?
I couldn't find the information to any of these questions on either
Treespond's web site or on their parent company Treepex's site, but they seem
like the most basic questions to ask about a company that is taking people's
money for some social good.
Also: Don't forests re-grow naturally after a fire? Do they really need to be
replanted by people? How much faster does a forest re-grow if people plant
tiny little trees there?
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Arc: Build Apache Spark Jobs Without Code - seddonm1
https://github.com/tripl-ai/arc-starter
======
aissar
What a clever framework and clever bunch of people behind this. Take it for a
spin and find out for yourself just how great this is.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Understanding Python decorators - spoon16
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/739654/understanding-python-decorators
======
mkramlich
this is RTFM material and i wish i could downvote it
~~~
weaksauce
I don't think that it is quite RTFM material. I looked at the documentation on
decorators in the python manual(actually there was only passing mention in the
manual it was fleshed out in the pep3129) and it is fairly lacking. Sure it
describes how the decorators operate in a syntactical sense it does not
provide the motivation for them or the examples that this stack overflow
question answers.
~~~
mkramlich
Understood. YMMV. However, I have a couple books on Python, plus the official
docs, plus Google, plus the REPL shell, and between those I found more than
ample information on how they work and what they're useful for.
I hope we don't reach a point here on HN where the home page is filled with
questions like, "How do 'for' loops work in C?" because that would make my K&R
C book cry, among other things. :)
~~~
weaksauce
I think decorators are a bit different than for loops but I get your gist :)
I think this article is fine for HN for a few reasons:
1\. Not all python programmers know about decorators and they might not be
sufficiently motivated to search them out.
2\. Decorators do not have obvious utility after reading python's manual.
3\. HN commentary is usually more interesting than the article and the
submitter might have wanted to spark some debate on the utility of them.
4\. This answer is a good example of a well written(mostly, there were some
grammatical errors but overall good) through explanation that was succinct
without being too succinct and leaving out important details.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
SearchYC is back up - ivank
http://searchyc.com/?
======
tokenadult
It has very current results too, as I just verified by test. P.S. I'm curious
why the parent post, which just opened this thread, is now dead.
~~~
ivank
It was probably [dead] because it wasn't up for everyone, due to slow DNS
propagation. It was unkilled a few hours later.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Researchers Find that Parasitic Flies are Turning Bees Into Zombies - rosser
http://inhabitat.com/researchers-find-that-parasitic-flies-are-turning-bees-into-zombies/
======
olb1ue
There are all kinds of theories on how a Zombie apocalypse could actually
happen. From parasites to neuro-toxins. The most far out there I've read about
is Neurogenesis. A condition where stem cells re-grow brain tissue. Probable?
No Possible? Apparently
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Exploring Euclideon's Unlimited Detail Engine - timknauf
http://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2011/11/22/exploring-unlimited-detail.aspx
======
dmbaggett
The article sensationally positions this as some incredible breakthrough that
the "old guard" of gaming is trying to suppress. More likely, the code works,
but has limitations -- the same limitations that led old guard luminaries like
Carmack to defer the idea for another few years.
As others have pointed out, voxel-based games have been around for a long
time; a recent example is the whimsical "3D Dot Game Hero" for PS3, in which
they use the low-res nature of the voxel world as a fun design element.
Voxel-based approaches have huge advantages ("infinite" detail, background
details that are deformable at the pixel level, simpler simulation of
particle-based phenomena like flowing water, etc.) but they'll only win once
computing power reaches an important crossover point. That point is where
rendering an organic world a voxel at a time looks better than rendering
zillions of polygons to approximate an organic world. Furthermore, much of the
effort that's gone into visually simulating real-world phenomena (read the
last 30 years of Siggraph conference proceedings) will mostly have to be
reapplied to voxel rendering. Simply put: lighting, caustics, organic elements
like human faces and hair, etc. will have to be "figured out all over again"
for the new era of voxel engines. It will therefore likely take a while for
voxel approaches to produce results that look as good, even once the crossover
point of level of detail is reached.
I don't mean to take anything away from the hard and impressive coding work
this team has done, but if they had more academic background, they'd know that
much of what they've "pioneered" has been studied in tremendous detail for two
decades. Hanan Samet's treatise on the subject tells you absolutely everything
you need to know, and more: ([http://www.amazon.com/Foundations-
Multidimensional-Structure...](http://www.amazon.com/Foundations-
Multidimensional-Structures-Kaufmann-
Computer/dp/0123694469/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1322140227&sr=8-1)) and even
goes into detail about the application of these spatial data structures to
other areas like machine learning. Ultimately, Samet's book is all about the
"curse of dimensionality" and how (and how much) data structures can help
address it.
In the late 90s at Naughty Dog, I used Samet's ideas (octrees in particular)
for collision detection in the Crash Bandicoot games. In those games, the
world was visually rendered with polygons, but physically modeled -- for
collision detection purposes, at least -- with an octree. The nice thing about
octrees is that they are very simple to work with and self-calibrate their
resolution dynamically, making them very space-efficient. Intuitively, a big
region of empty air tends to be represented by a handful of huge cubes, while
the individual fronds of a fern get coated with dozens or hundreds of tiny
cubes, because there's more surface detail to account for in the latter
example.
I think the crossover point I mentioned earlier will come when GPUs become
general-purpose enough to allow massively parallel voxel rendering
implementations. That's what surprised me most about this article: they crow
that it's a CPU-only technology... why? GPUs excel at tasks involving vast
amounts of relatively simple parallel computation.
Prior to the crossover point, we'll see a bunch of cool games that use voxel
rendering primarily for gameplay reasons. These games will look chunky
compared to their polygonal peers, but will offer unique experiences.
Minecraft is a good example. (I'm assuming it's voxel-based, but don't really
know.)
~~~
Terretta
In the Comanche series, "voxels" were a selling point on the box.
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ku-
ICQvQJGI&sns=em](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ku-ICQvQJGI&sns=em)
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comanche_series>
No story I've seen on this engine seems to mention that series.
~~~
lloeki
The problem with NovaLogic's VoxelSpace engine (used in Delta Force, Comanche
and Armored Fist series) is that it's using a height map, and to speed up
rendering, "locks" the Z axis to simplify a bunch of formulas to render voxels
comprising the terrain much faster. Comanche 1 and 2 used sprites so that
wasn't as noticeable, but Comanche 3 introduced polygon-based models, where
the third axis speedup produces uneven deformation when looking up or down
(you can see it in the video). You can see the same problem in OutCast. The
choice of an engine with such limitations for a tank an helicopter and a
ground soldier game is interesting, and you can notice how most of the
gameplay in those games involves long range action along the horizontal plane.
Notice how NovaLogic jet fighters games do not use VoxelSpace but a polygon-
based terrain engine.
Today voxel-based renderers must allow correctly projected 6-DOF orientation
of the viewport, and not just render terrain but arbitrary objects, and
integrate together with various lightning and shader effects to stand any
chance outside the neo-retro or abstract category.
------
babebridou
What I don't like with "Unlimited Details" is that Dell refuses to say what
the engine can't do yet. We know it's a work in progress. We (the internet)
are excited about it because it's an experiment that's on scale with what we
could expect from that branch of 3D graphics technology. Trillions of atoms,
whatever. Show us what's still in progress because the internet is skeptical
about this, this and this.
Hacking reflexion by duplicating the scene is a good way to start, because no
one can say whether it's a good or a bad solution to a non-trivial problem -
it gets the job done for now - but can you have multiple coexisting versions
of the world? like a vertical mirror, a horizontal body of water and an
underwater section?
To Dell: just stop handwaving the questions already, we get it that you
ignored the state of the art and built your own thing, just tell us what it
can't do yet, show us your current progress and you'll be met with much less
skepticism, and even help, even if you keep your trade secrets, at least show
us your specs! You won't be struck down by lightning if you talk - no one ever
died from reinventing/copying the wheel and making it so good that the wheel
can fly.
~~~
Torn
> Dell refuses to say what the engine can't do yet.
I'll go out on a limb here, and suggest it can't do real-time animation,
texturing, lighting, shadows, collisions, etc. All the maps / screenshots
shown seem to be static, procedurally generated and not artist-created.
Dell keeps throwing around this 'Unlimited Detail' marketing phrase which is
very offputting. Until it's seen in action in an _actual game_ it can be
nothing but snake oil.
~~~
babebridou
I agree with you 100% - my comment was mostly wishful thinking, a description
of how Dell could make me change my mind.
This kind of marketing is one I can't quite understand. I mean, what is he
after? Buzz? Funding? What's his endgame? Why & how is he paying people to
work on it? Is his marketing strategy to troll the profession & the audience,
and he really has something big up his sleeve?
Why is he using the Vaporware approach?
~~~
twoodfin
Generate enough press to keep funding going, particularly from the Australian
government? They already got one such grant, I believe. Are more possible if
they can put together enough clippings?
------
wladimir
See also the gigavoxel research by an ex-colleague of mine:
<http://maverick.inria.fr/Members/Cyril.Crassin/> . This looks very similar,
and is probably an extension of it...
------
Derbasti
As soon as I see animated objects moving about in a dynamically lit world, I
will start to believe that Euclideon is on to something.
Maybe there could be some middle ground like in the old voxel days, where you
would have a static (unlimited detail) background world and some traditional,
polygon-based actors in the foreground. Looking at any modern game, just about
everything on the screen is constantly moving, so color me sceptical even on
that idea.
Also, I would like to know how they do lighting. It looks like they might use
precomputed highlights and shadows. Needless to say that this would not be of
much use for dynamic lighting.
~~~
dmbaggett
This may not be as big an issue as you think. We had the same issue in in the
Crash Bandicoot games: the background was rendered a completely different way
than the foreground (animating) elements. We made it work by approximating
where the foreground elements should "sort in" to the background polygon
layers. Where the heuristics were wrong, we tuned it manually, by pushing a
foreground element forward or backward in the scene until it looked right.
Remember: you can hack stuff in games until it looks right. It doesn't
actually have to work perfectly from a theoretical standpoint; it just has to
work practically without too much additional tuning labor.
~~~
Derbasti
That still does not solve the issue that current games have a lot of moving
assets and really not that much static geometry. Trees, shrubs and grass move
in the wind, water flows, walls crumble when hit by bullets, that kind of
thing. Everything is animated.
~~~
dmbaggett
It seems to me that voxel worlds could make this problem easier, not harder:
you can deform the world algorithmically, voxel by voxel, rather than using
polygonal approximations. Imagine an acid blob eating an outdoor environment
in a fantasy game: in a voxel world, this is like a fancy seed fill. In a
polygonal world, this is much harder to simulate.
I'm not saying voxel worlds solve every such problem; just that there are
likely to be as many things that are easier w.r.t. animating elements as there
are things that will be harder.
[Edit: maybe I'm not explaining this well, but I guess what I'm saying is that
I don't see any reason why _any_ voxels in a voxel world have to be static.
The data structures don't force that; in contrast, in a voxel world with a
clever data spatial structure, every single voxel can be a dynamic,
particulate object, subject to computing power. As I argue above, though, this
is not practical until computing power improves enough. Perhaps this is your
fundamental point, in which case we're in violent agreement.]
------
nodata
Previous discussion:
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2837948>
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2840543>
------
rkalla
I am surprisd by the lack of interest in the search algorithm Dell proposes he
designed and is using.
Searching such a large problem space for 1 to 2 million results 25x a second
is amazingly impressive... This is what i am most curious about at the
moment... Also how he is storing the full voxel point data for any given world
that needs to be searchd in real time. Replicated data or not (i.e. similar to
GIF color data deduplication) you still have location data for every voxel
position or offsets or something that still results in a hellacious amount of
data that needs to be searched efficiently.
Havent seen details from Dell or others on either of these aspects that I feel
are cornerstones to the engine.
~~~
buff-a
Its hierarchical data, most nodes of which are empty at the highest level, or
100% solid, terminating the search. Its basically a specific optimization of
raytracing as far as I can tell.
------
tobiasu
Hmm, what's so amazing about it? It's a voxel graphic engine, of course it's
going to have great detail and no polygons (duh). That's not new. Commanche
had this in 1992...
I'm not at all an expert in this area, can someone who is explain what the
downsides of voxel graphics are? There must be some serious problems with it,
because the technology is well known.
Is there something new that makes this particular engine stand out above the
previous engines?
~~~
Fargren
I _think_ the big deal is that it's supposed to convert poligon based graphics
to voxels in real time. Which I doubt it can actually do, but if it can, it
would be kind of cool.
~~~
stefs
the polygon to voxel conversion is just so artists can use existing tools like
3dmax or maya, which work on polygon models. think of the trees in their demo,
the models have to come from somewhere. so realtime conversion is not needed.
as far as i can tell their voxel tech is just for non-moving objects like the
landscape, buildings, etc. animated and moving actors are still rendered as
polygons and blended into the scene (according to the article, this already
works to a certain degree, but they weren't able to give a live demo, just a
video).
------
darklajid
Is something like "GPUs used to be fighting one another for more power,
memory, and so forth, but now they have their languages like _Kuda_" (Page 6)
just a random typo or a reason to believe that someone didn't do his homework
before typing this down?
I'd love to see this released, but the article was far too positive and the
tone read too much like marketing to me. Some careful, not too aggressive
words at the introduction and blessing after blessing afterwards, sprinkled
with the seemingly unbiased author's impression and description of a very nice
and professional guy. Mhhhh...
Edit: Just saw that user 'Causification' already said something similar,
albeit with a good amount of more emotion. Still, I'm going to keep this here
as a personal impression of someone that has no clue about graphic engines in
general, i.e. my layman's reaction after reading the article.
~~~
robinhouston
Those of us who don’t keep showdead turned on can’t see what Causification has
said, because he/she is hellbanned. I was quite confused by your comment, till
I guessed what had happened and turned on showdead to check.
------
femto
What do people make of the patent history? Eight lapsed applications and one
withdrawn over a 15 year period. Is that unusual?
[http://pericles.ipaustralia.gov.au/ols/auspat/quickSearch.do...](http://pericles.ipaustralia.gov.au/ols/auspat/quickSearch.do?queryString=bruce+dell&resultsPerPage=)
------
sjm
I'd really like to know how much memory is being used per unique model. Until
we see more than a couple different models being re-used everywhere, I'm going
to stay skeptical. Also his reasoning for the lack of variety of '3 weeks
before Gamescom' sounds a bit BS to me, as this video has been around for much
longer than Euclideon's last media-spree:
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSvptZCJGyI>. You would think they would have
created at least one demo with a larger variety of objects by this point.
I'm also very suspicious of all this recent positive coverage of Euclideon.
There was a pretty suspect feature on Euclideon on an Australian game review
show called Good Game a couple weeks back, talking with this same guy, and not
really making much mention of the skepticism involved (or at all if I remember
correctly), and as far as I know no outspoken skeptics have been able to get
their hands on it. The clip from Good Game can be seen here:
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_ndZ8ETbqU>
------
Tloewald
The fact they are financially backed by the Australian Government (which has
an approximately 0% track record as a VC) seals their doom. If they were in
the US they'd have to figure out a way to produce something commercial or at
least potentially commercial, now they can burn through $2M while fading into
irrelevance (if not there already).
------
forbes
The awesome Aussie show 'Good Game' did a story on Unlimited Detail recently:
[http://www.abc.net.au/tv/goodgame/video/default.htm?src=/tv/...](http://www.abc.net.au/tv/goodgame/video/default.htm?src=/tv/goodgame/video/xml/20111108_2030.xml&item=05)
------
tluyben2
After reading all the comments it seems there are people who are playing with
this kind of technology. Is there any open source code which can be studied?
------
argimenes
If this software is a hoax -- and fair enough, it sounds too good to be true
-- can someone explain how they were able to fake it in the live demo? I
understand that this is supposed to be impossible, cranks often claim the
establishment is 'suppressing' them, etc., etc., but if this snake oil
peddling, then HOW did they do it? The demo LOOKS real.
------
meric
There's supposed to be 42 trillion "voxels" in that demo.
If each "voxel" took only a single bit to store, this works out to require [42
trillion / (1024 * 1024 * 1024 * 8) = 4 889.44352] gigabytes of memory.
How do you store that while you calculate the screen pixels? Modern PCs only
have 4 or 8 gigabytes of RAM!
~~~
jpadvo
This is addressed in the article: they used many replicated objects. They
stored one rock, then rendered it a gajillion times. They claim they were able
to do this by applying something like a search algorithm to the objects being
rendered.
That's the magic of it -- they are able to create worlds with insane amounts
of detail, but in an intelligent way that means they don't need an insane
amount of computational power to render it.
------
singular
Whether or not a voxel engine is the right way go, or even whether it does
what it claims to do, I think Dell should be commended for actually going out
and trying to do the thing - it's an amazing achievement to actually get
somewhere with it.
------
baby
way to write a lot about it without really talking about it... tl;dr anyone?
~~~
stefs
tl;dr: i'm sceptical, this might be snake oil,
omgthisisthegreatestthingeverandwillrevolutionizeeverything!
honestly, the article is not of the highest quality.
------
ldar15
"... he was forced to solve the riddles himself, rather than plucking the
accepted solution from a textbook ..."
The thing is, the textbooks also have all the things that didn't work or don't
work well. Even some educated graphics programmers often fail to understand
that representing 3D objects is just a data representation and transformation
problem. Sure, a hard one, but there's nothing magic about it. Representing
the data as a bag of "atoms" instead of polygons just isn't a breakthrough.
The problem is still spacial search. The problem is still a simulation of
optical physics. Graphics is just an optimization problem now. Attend an IEEE
conference and maybe 5% of papers will be new theory, the rest will be about
effective optimization techniques.
When someone comes to you and says "I have this awesome idea because I didn't
read anybody else's ideas", just walk away.
------
mkramlich
Voxel engines are "new" in the same sense that social networks are "new" from
the POV of someone who remembers using modem-based BBSes and Unix Usenet
groups back in the 80's. Meaning: mostly old, maybe new in some small subtle
corner aspect of it, or some twist. But not really new.
------
Cyph0n
Interesting article. Judging by Dell's (the CEO) calm attitude towards
"haters", I personally believe that he truly has something revolutionary to
offer.
Only time will tell though.
~~~
nestlequ1k
I think Dell makes money the same way other scammers make money, produce as
much hype as possible with half truths, and by the time people figure out what
is real, you'll have already cashed in.
I guarantee he is optimizing his entire company for fancy demos. He'll sucker
some idiot big company into buying his technology, then we'll never ever see
it in a product.
These things are predictable as clockwork.
~~~
gizmo
Most likely. They already got a $2million innovation grant from the
government. Now they're working on better shadows and fancier worlds... mere
demo stuff.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
How much should you pay developers? - brianwillis
http://blog.stackoverflow.com/2011/07/how-much-should-you-pay-developers/
======
hammerdr
Experience = Full Time Work Experience.
That's the only measure that they accept (and this is a _formula_ dammit! We
cannot go against that!).
This seems to me to be a complete lack of understanding about what makes a
good programmer (Assumption: We pay people according to merit.). I have a
friend who was in another industry for several years. She taught herself Ruby
and Rails and became very, very good at doing so. It was all done as a
personal project. She never was fully employed as a "Full Time Developer"
until last year. At the point of her being hired last year, she could write
web applications better than most seasoned programmers.
Yes, yes. Anecdote does not make data. But they are proposing that they have
come up with The Algorithm with How to Pay Programmers. If that was true, then
they could handle this situation. Instead, they would have to come up with a
'special exception' for this particular person and compensate them correctly.
If you get down to every little hole I could poke in this algorithm, you'd
find out that almost everyone has a special circumstance and that throwing
them into an inhuman algorithmic compensation experiment is Wrong(tm).
Instead, you need people that can understand the nuances of Jim, Joe and
Sally's situation and can do their best to serve their interests as well as
the company's interests.
I'm not saying that the status quo is great, but this 'perfect solution' is
anything but.
~~~
beseku
I think you're showing a fundamental misunderstanding of what working within a
team means. Full time experience interacting with other people and with
stakeholders of the product you are creating is something you're friend won't
have, regardless of how amazing she is with RoR.
Being a developer is as much about being able to write code as being able to
identify the best solutions to problems within the particular domain. This
ability can only come through working as a developer and dealing with these
situations first hand.
Put another way, I've been called very rude names by very famous musicians and
being able to deal with that and continue working with these people was a
massive learning experience to me.
~~~
robryan
Then you weigh in favour of those that aren't very good developers but are
good at navigating office politics.
~~~
uniclaude
There is a real difference between being able to work in a team, and "being
good at navigating office politics".
When you want some software shipped, you don't only need good programmers, you
need good programmers that can work together, and fulltime experience helps
with this. That said, I do not think fulltime employment is the only way to
get this subset of abilities.
------
tednaleid
Title is kind of linkbait. The article talks about how to pay equitably and
transparently compared to co-workers, but doesn't actually say how _much_ you
should pay. No real dollar numbers are discussed other than a range that "top-
notch" C# developers are paid $30k to $200k (and with bonuses and other
compensation, I think the top end is actually low on this).
~~~
artmageddon
$200k is low? I just got a new job paying near $100k and thought I was hitting
the high end of the scale...(C# dev, 6 years full-time exp after university in
NYC). I'm fairly satisfied with the pay but I'm happy to know there's still
room for growth :)
~~~
tednaleid
I'm not saying $200k is a low salary, just that the top end is higher than
$200k.
You're not anywhere near the top end of the scale, but it's a relatively
normally distributed curve and you're probably starting to move down the
downslope of the right side of it :).
------
bcRIPster
Damn! I better start brushing up on my modem whistling skills! I used to
whistle Hayes 300bps and AppleCat 1200bps handshakes in order to lock open
lines when speed dialing. If you timed it right you could 99% of the time
secure the dialup line with the real modem when the remote modem cycled the
line connection.
~~~
andrewstuart
Yes but can you whistle up a GIF file? If you can whistle a GIF image of
yourself into a modem then I name you King Of The Universe.
~~~
Uchikoma
I only can whistle JPGs
------
littleidea
tl;dr
"We have a system for evaluating devs, and pay people more for living in NY."
The article has a bunch of words, but doesn't actually say anything about how
much you should pay developers. Not sure why there are upvotes.
~~~
jquery
Maybe the linkbait title?
------
Joakal
Is a top notch C# salary $30,000 in some parts of the world?
Well, frankly after reading it I still have no idea how much pay it is for
someone that's all B or all AAA+++. Do they use the checklist or an algorithm?
What is SE's starting salary at least?
------
e1ven
What's the algorithm? You list the factors you use to decide, but I'm confused
as to how those combine. How much do you weight Modem Whistling Skills versus
Blog Posts versus years of experience?
------
andrewstuart
Anyone who has dedicated enough time to master the lost art of modem whistling
should be able to name their own salary.
------
troels
Interesting comment by Tim:
_Every employees salaries are completely public. In addition to this,
employees set their own salary. This has been shown to have three effects: 1\.
People tend to actually value themselves lower than they might otherwise
outside. 2\. General happiness is higher. 3\. People who are earning too much
feel guilty, and either work harder or don’t raise their salaries. They’re
also expected to perform at that level. If someone sets their salary 5k higher
than the guy next to them who churns out the same amount of code but has 1/3rd
the defects (and that were the only difference), then questions would be
asked._
\--- [http://blog.stackoverflow.com/2011/07/how-much-should-you-
pa...](http://blog.stackoverflow.com/2011/07/how-much-should-you-pay-
developers/#comment-59962)
Does anybody have some references for this?
------
biot
This is like GM's vision of how much you should pay for a Saturn vehicle:
everyone ends up paying the same amount for the same model and options. That's
a good, fair system if the amount is competetive but I wonder if others
adopting this salary model don't end up like Saturn's pricing -- the biggest
beneficiary of menu pricing is the company.
~~~
lemming
I don't think that's true. What I think is most important about this is that
it tries, at least, to be transparent and fair. In my current company I've
been exposed for the first time to how salaries are chosen, and in many cases
it's almost totally arbitrary, or worse. It's certainly based far less than I
would like (and far less than I expected) on the person's ability to do their
job. The biggest beneficiary of a system as proposed by the OP are people who
are good at their jobs (not friends of the boss, better negotiators, prettier,
etc).
------
Uchikoma
I thought the salary matrix on the old joel on software was more insightful -
it showed how the different factors summed up.
------
JacobIrwin
San Francisco, USA (from home and office-based work; split)
We are looking for a lead developer that has 3-5 years of experience creating
mobile/tablet applications for the following three platforms: Android
(mobile), iOS (iPhone), and iOS (iPad). Knowledge of recently upgraded
“versioning” requirements is essential to this position. Coding/programming
experience on Android (tablet) and Blackberry is a plus (but not required).
This position will be compensated for generously and the chosen candidate will
have the opportunity to lead a team of developers as we continue to scale;
this is a salary plus residual-commission paying position. We have a global
footprint in the market of custom app development and accordingly the position
may grow to encompass development of mobile & tablet apps for customers on
several continents.
<http://www.thecreativeappco.com/>
For consideration, please send three (or more) examples (preferably names of
apps already published in the marketplace; apps available for us to download
and preview), a resume (or school/work history), and any other relevant
anecdotes to:
[email protected]
~~~
JacobIrwin
^^ this is the advertisement we posted recently. Our salary range is
40-65k/year to start plus a 5-10k retainer/sign-on. Plus residuals.. plus
equipment... ladada...
------
robryan
This all sounds good in theory, I wonder though it someone who is pretty key
to what they are doing had an offer from a competitor they would stick rigidly
to what they say here or would be willing to make exceptions.
~~~
lemming
Right, it would require a lot of discipline in that case - I was wondering how
strictly they stick to it, too. The problem is, if they've intentionally
defined a totally rigid system (for good reasons, IMO) then even a slight
deviation from that undermines the whole thing.
------
atomicdog
>Creates public artifacts
>Blog posts, open source tools, books
So if I worked at SO and I didn't have a blog, hence presumably scoring a 'F',
they'd be having a "stern talk with me"?
~~~
middus
I guess they mean that you engage in the SE communities (e.g. SO, Superuser
etc.) or contribute posts to their blogs.
~~~
daemin
Well considering at StackExchange their main focus is the StackExchange set of
sites, community building Q&A. If you didn't participate then you wouldn't be
eating your own dog food and hence would not be as good a developer on the
project. Having developers actively work in the community also helps keep them
more focused on what they are building, and it means there are more people
actually building the ecosystems.
Having your own blogs, podcasts, and other public artefacts also helps since
it would help build an audience and get the word out to more people about the
SE sites. Also don't forget that SE is a startup with VC backing, therefore if
the developers don't help in spreading the word the company could fold.
------
tomjen3
Enough that they are happy to work for you.
And not the way frog creek does. You architec should be paid less than the
programmers since they contribute the value, no programmer should have to be
promoted to a role of writing less code.
Oh and I had side jobs in college. Yes, they count as years of experience,
since that is a bullshit measure.
~~~
currywurst
more code != more value. Lots of people can crank out thousands of lines per
week, but someone should be responsible for the system to make sense as a
cohesive whole - and that is usually the job of a software architect ( pretty
unglamourous, I should add ;) ).
------
latch
The new default Word theme got lame fast.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: Anyone use Windows Server? - breck
I'm getting a virtual dedicated box to launch a new product on(currently I maintain 6 linux servers). For fun, I was thinking of trying Windows Server. The box will primarily be used for hosting webapps(php & python, mysql db) and processing incoming email.<p>I have a few years of experience managing linux boxes and there's no particular problems that I have, but sometimes I wonder if I'm missing out on anything by not using Windows. For instance, I went through a stage where I was intent on using only Gnumeric and OpenOffice, then finally decided to give Office 2007 a shot and was angry at myself because it is so vastly superior.<p>Am I missing out by not giving Windows Server a shot?
======
oldgregg
Yes, you're missing out on a world of pain. I came from a windows server
background. Even though I consider myself a *nix novice, I would rather stab
myself in the ear with a pencil then go back to windows.
------
Shorel
Windows Server has been painless for me. We use MSSQL Server which is a good
database, much better than your MySQL.
We use PHP, ASP and ASP.NET in no particular order. I prefer PHP and use PHP.
It works flawlessly in IIS.
Also, the subversion server is very easy to manage (tortoiseSVN to create
repositories, etc).
However, for email, Linux is much better. Email hosting in Windows sucks. MS
wants you to buy Exchange.
This is my experience with a dedicated Windows box. Shared hosting in a
Windows machine is the world of pain other posts describe.
------
prakash
I know some people that run dns services so that they don't have to deal with
bind....
------
gaius
If your app involves a database, you might want to give LINQ a go.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Gameduino: an Arduino game adapter - potomak
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2084212109/gameduino-an-arduino-game-adapter
======
potomak
Want to share with you hackers my birthday present. Can't wait to hack it!
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Why Aren't Schools Grouping Kids By Intelligence Level? - mcnabj
As we look at ways to improve and update educational systems, does it still make sense to have kids grouped by age rather than by their level of intelligence? Should less intelligent kids have to be overshadowed by geniuses? Should Geniuses have to wait for dullards who may never catch up? I can't remember all the times I would see the really smart kids in my class play card games while the rest of the class was learning stuff these kids had already mastered. In professional life the better workers get to advance past go, why shouldn't the really smart kids be in the same class that goes as fast as their minds can?
======
lutusp
> As we look at ways to improve and update educational systems, does it still
> make sense to have kids grouped by age rather than by their level of
> intelligence?
You need to learn how democracies work, and learn the political implications
that accompany ranking people by intelligence.
First, intelligence is a very poor social measure -- it's an unreliable gauge,
it has been abused countless times for political ends, and it's not well
understood. Read "The Mismeasure of Man" by Stephen Jay Gould to find out why.
Second, even if IQ testing were reliable, it would still be politically
unacceptable to rank people by IQ -- I mean, more than we already do.
Certainly not in public schools -- can you think of why?
People with different IQs pay the same tax rate -- intelligent people aren't
taxed at a different rate. And public schools are run on tax revenues. Given
that, would it seem fair to tax everyone at the same rate, but then spend more
school tax dollars on intelligent kids than average ones?
The final reason is because a democracy like this one tries to honor the
principle of equal opportunity. Equal opportunity means the same treatment for
everyone, regardless of personal differences including IQ.
How people turn out depends on their differences. But how they are treated in
school _cannot_ pay attention to those differences without abandoning
democratic principles.
So, little or no attention paid to IQ, in the early grades, in public school.
In college, especially privately funded ones, different story. And in adult
employment, completely different -- there the rules are different.
We're all unequal, in a bunch of ways including IQ. But in school we should be
assured equality of opportunity.
~~~
brianchu
Students in public schools are routinely ranked by intelligence. There's the
entire concept of "class rank," in which students are in fact put in ranks by
their GPA (a proxy for intelligence) and from which a valedictorian is chosen.
Then there are standardized tests, which are fairly analogous to IQ tests.
I think it's a rather serious overreach/stretch to link this to the broader
workings of democracy.
~~~
throwaway344
The difference from GPA/Standardized Tests is pretty clear. As those metrics
are used _inside_ the age group, competing exclusively with people born within
a year or so of them.
------
japhyr
There is a model of education called "competency-based education", or
"competency education". The core idea is to let students move on to new
material when they have mastered the current material, not when they have put
a certain amount of time into a class.
This model does not focus on intelligence. It sets out learning targets for
every student, and then lets students make progress at their own pace.
Ideal high school version: A student enters high school, and there is no
notion of 9th-10th-11th-12th grades. As a new student, you are given a list of
all possible things you could learn. With a teacher, you map out everything
you will need to learn, to become a well-rounded person and to prepare you for
what you want to do after high school. When you complete this map of learning
targets, you are finished with high school. Finish in two years, fine. Finish
in six years, fine.
There are many practical issues to sort out in this model, but it is being
done. When it is done well, it addresses many issues in education that arise
from schools being these places where people are "stuck" for four years at a
time.
Sources, for anyone really interested in this:
"Making Mastery Work" is a study of a number of schools that have been
implementing competency education. It looks at the commonalities in the
different schools' approaches to competency education, and how they differ.
[http://www.competencyworks.org/resources/making-mastery-
work...](http://www.competencyworks.org/resources/making-mastery-work/)
The CompetencyWorks site in general is a great resource for anyone interested
in this model of education.
[http://www.competencyworks.org/](http://www.competencyworks.org/)
------
gjmulhol
No teacher is willing to tell a parent that their child is a dullard unless
the kid is completely off the bottom of the scale. Parents will try to bully
teachers into bumping their child into a higher class. Unfortunately, as with
so many things, school placement is more about people management than
execution toward quantitative metrics.
The other, more complicated issues are around resource allocation. In an ideal
world, the children that are not in the high-achieving group are given extra
support. Realistically, these groups would probably be neglected as failures.
This creates a cycle of poor performance which could impact a child for the
rest of his or her life. A good corrollary to this is the idea of high- and
low-performing schools. The idea of bussing kids from a low performing school
to a high performing one to mix up the classes might not make sense at the
outset. If only someone would give better resources to the low-performing
school, maybe they could turn it around. Those schools become neglected and
mired in teaching techniques designed for high-performing schools, and nothing
gets solved.
It is a truly complex set of issues.
------
EnderMB
You're assuming that a school is capable of separating the smart kids from the
dullards. The big flaw in your idea is that you're labeling kids who really
don't know what they want to do yet, or aren't really happy with their
surroundings. A kid that struggles in school isn't necessarily struggling
because they can't do the work.
I really didn't like school. I only got on with a handful of kids, I was
awkward, I was anxious, and most of my teachers would have put me in the
"dullard" category. However, I did enough to get myself into college, and then
ended up at university, and even landing a Masters place at a top 10
university in the UK. If I compare myself to some of the smarter kids I knew
when I was at school, I probably did better academically and financially.
HN is always so focused on how education is flawed, and how a university
education isn't really needed, yet I'm willing to bet that very few people on
here have any experience on the other side of education. My girlfriend is a
teacher, and I can safely say that teaching kids isn't even remotely as easy
as it seems.
------
recroad
This is how it used to work (and maybe even still does) in parts of the
subcontintent, (e.g., India, Pakistan). There are divisions for each grade -
e.g., there's 8A, 8B, 8C, and that's how the kids - by "intelligence". If
you're in a B class and do well, you might move into the A class for the next
higher grade next year, and so on. It could work the other way too.
It's a horrible system where everyone in a B or C automatically feels
inferior, and so do their parents/family. Sure, you can change the name to be
something more acceptable than A, B and C, but it's going to be tough to get
away from the underlying concept that one kid is better than the other.
I support that education should suit the person's interest and strengths, but
"grouping kids by intelligence level" is highly subjective no matter what
purpose-specific metric is used.
------
tempthrowaway
Schools attempt this sort of thing all the time, but on a small scale. When I
was in school I suffered through an incredible array of tactics. I was held
back in kindergarten... moved to the "gifted" school afterwards... then
officially diagnosed with dyslexia around the 4th grade. Through middle school
I was still in the gifted program, but I refused to work almost across the
board. This lead to my placement in classes for students with disabilities,
where I effectively became a second teacher in the room. These moves took
place constantly, each placement clearly not being the right fit. The impact
that it did have was humiliating. The gifted program saved my life, I really
cannot imagine how screwed up the average "normal" students experience is, but
being singled out and placed among students that could barely function was
deeply painful for me.
Its taken me a very long time to undo these lessons. To learn that my ability
was not confined to their definitions has taken years of success and self
determination. I really cannot imagine just how many students are truly beaten
by this, how many creative and intelligent minds are directed towards self
doubt and self loathing. I do feel that being placed into the gifted program
saved me from the public school experience, but I also know that the
collateral damage is very real.
------
thejteam
In a school setting, intelligence has two components: one is what you already
know and the other is how fast you learn it. A proper intelligence based
grouping has to account for both. If you have an algebra class with a 13 year
old and an 18 year old the 13 obviously learns much faster and will blow away
the 18 year old. Likewise, it makes no sense to put two fast learners in the
same class if one is learning calculus and the other algebra. Interestingly
enough, if you do it right it generally reduces to age groups further divided
by learning speed.
Making it more difficult... at younger ages 5-7 there is very little
correlation between what you know and how fast you learn. My wife observed
this as a kindergarten teacher. And making it even more difficult... sometimes
something "clicks" and learning speed increases. Or you hit a brick wall and
it decreases. The number of groupings increases rapidly and ultimately it
becomes easier to lump everybody together and hope for the best.
I'm not saying this is a good system. Just the most practical given the way
schools are currently set up. A better way is a model where teachers act as
rotating tutors giving students 1-1 help as they need it to move on to the
next level.
------
anywherenotes
In high-school I went to - Edward R Murrow, in Brooklyn, back in 90's, we had
non-regents classes for really poor students (I took bio non-regents), regular
classes for regular students, and there were AP courses for smarter students.
It was possible to take AP Calculus (smart) and non-regents Biology (not
smart) and regular English (average).
My daughter is in 3'rd grade. There are only 7 students in her class, and they
get individually assigned different homework, based on their abilities.
Back in Russia, I finished 5 grades, and we had a "smart" class, and a few
regular classes for each grade.
So basically I already see separation by IQ or similar in classrooms.
Putting kids with different age groups will create issues. Although it could
be that an eight year old is just as mathematically advanced as a ten year
old, the ten year old is very likely to be a lot more advanced socially. Could
probably manipulate 8 year old into whatever - I'm just talking about
embarrassing them, nothing horrible. The social discrepancies are probably
going to create more issues, than solving the "I'm too smart for my age group"
issue.
------
rholdy
Lets assume that a school can properly separate kids based on intelligence,
(which they can't) and that separating kids based on intelligence is a good
idea (which it isn't). You will still run into a couple problems if you wanted
to try something like this:
1) Kids that don't make it into the "Smart" class will think they are stupid.
That is probably one of the worst things you can do to a kid.
2) Having their Kids in the "Smart" class will be much more important to the
parents of borderline kids than anyone else. If a school is politically
pressured into putting a kid into the "Smart" class that doesn't belong (and
this will happen all the time), and that kid struggles to keep up, he's going
to feel like he's stupid (see #1).
3) Kids look for any opportunity they can to bully each other. Doing something
like this would make it really easy for them to identify which kids to bully
because you're defining two different social classes for them. Whichever is
larger will bully the other.
PS. Don't call kids dullards.
------
ArbitraryLimits
Because the purpose of school isn't to teach technical skills, it's to
indoctrinate the next generation. Dumb kids have to buy into the prevailing
cultural mythos also just as much as smart kids do, or society will crumble.
It so happens that part of the cultural mythos in America today is that
schools _aren't_ supposed to indoctrinate anyone, but that's beside the point.
------
kec
Grouping kids by perceived intelligence could actually be a net harm in the
socialization aspect of school. Public schools are currently a more or less
heterogenous mix of everyone in the community. Splitting by perceived
intelligence would homogenize groups of kids, probably along economic lines
(college educated parents likely to be more involved in their kids education,
more able to afford tutoring and such than blue collar or poverty level
parents)
You're also assuming that grouping "smart" and "dumb" kids together harms both
parties. In my experience the opposite is often true. Being forced to help
someone understand a difficult concept often leads to new insight and deeper
understanding. Similarly the kids who have trouble understanding a concept
have access to the quicker students for help whereas in a homogenized class
the only help would be the instructor, who has to divide their attention among
all students.
------
runjake
I have a bunch of thoughts on this subject, but I'll just say that
intelligence is not an indicator of performance, motivation, and thus,
success. So an intelligence group model of education makes little sense to me.
This scientifically-studied disparity is briefly discussed in Duhigg's book,
The Power of Habit. An excellent read.
------
david927
Grouping children by age is silly, of course, but maybe it's preferable to
grouping "by level of intelligence". Why? First, you need to teach to the
level _per activity_. A child that excels at reading may be slower at math,
one that is good at math might be poor in art. And each child will have a
different response to different teaching methods.
What we're looking for is individualized learning, where possible.
For example, I think it's crazy for teachers to lecture, when the best
lecturers for any field can be found on-line. Why listen to someone drone on
about the Battle of Hastings when you can have a professor who is passionate
about _exactly that_ doing the talking? Children should have the ability to
explore topics and listen to lectures individually, moving at their own speed,
and then come together to do group activities in class.
~~~
caw
> First, you need to teach to the level per activity.
This can be accomplished.
Imagine you have a set of similar students by age, say Kindergarten - 2nd
grade. Imagine that you have 4 classrooms and 4 teachers, each with a
particular subject (math, science, reading/writing, geography/history). Each
teacher teaches the same subject at multiple levels. Then you just send the
student to the skill appropriate class.
If you were to take classes above your age determined grade, it'd basically be
like skipping a grade. If you're at your age level for learning, there's no
difference. But for everyone in between they get a mix of more advanced
learning where they need it.
I may or may not have had first hand experience with this model
------
nyan_sandwich
There are a number of obstacles between where we are and a world where
intelligence is taken as seriously as it should be.
See most other comments around here though; the reason IQ is not used more
often is that intelligence denialism is rampant. One reason is that as some
comments demonstrate, egalitarianism and democratic principles are
incompatible with IQ realism. It's pretty clear that intelligence segregation
is going to turn out in practice to be racial segregation, so it's simply not
going to happen in a society that has defined itself against such practice.
------
stevoo
Well, although schools might not say they do, some actually do. I know a
teacher of a private school and there school has different classes marked from
with letters A, B, C, D The stronger students go into the higher letters and
the weaker to the lower one.
This helps improve both the strong and the weak. But i believe that the same
should be done in all schools. It might be harder to actually implement is
state schools, as the delinquents will all be grouped in one class, thereby
completely killing the class performance and any chance of the other students
in that class in improving
------
jangel
While I'm not against your proposal per se, the way you call the low-achieving
kids "dullards who may never catch up" is a red flag that you don't really
understand what puts these kids there in the first place.
This grouping may benefit the geniuses, but the system isn't really holding
back the geniuses. They succeed despite the system, not because of it, whereas
the system is failing those lagging behind. Implementing this plan on an
American school system without addressing the laggards would just be shuffling
around the furniture.
------
jaachan
In the Netherlands, we do group by intelligence, got a whole group of systems
for kids age 12 and up. Seems to work well.
Still grouped by age too, though you can move up or down a class if that suits
you. Grouping by age doesn't always work, as age is a big factor in what kind
of people you feel comfortable around.
------
bstx
They do that to some degree in Germany, which has a 3-tier secondary education
system ought to group students based on their (perceived) academic aptitude.
It has however been accused for being biased toward social status.
------
throwwit
We live in a society people! Dullards and Dunning Kruger Dullards alike.
------
psteve710
Singapore is already doing that looong time
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Attackers Demand $2.5M After Coordinated Ransomware Attacks on Texas Government - mojoraja
https://cyware.com/news/attackers-demand-25-million-ransom-after-coordinated-ransomware-attacks-on-texas-government-entities-79af8a80/
======
zelon88
All of those managed service providers do the same thing. 4 full time
employees and an outside sales guy just answer phones and regurgitate what
they read on CNET while outsourced Indian contractors manage all their systems
with minimal security, minimal oversight, and like 2 passwords between all of
their clients.
Any "automation" they claim to have behind their "help desk" suite is
literally 14 Indians working odd hours to install Windows Updates via RDP.
I had one of these places chide me for not having a WISP (Written Information
Security Program) a couple years ago. When I found evidence that their
outsourced Indian labor was accessing export controlled data I asked them to
provide me a copy of their WISP. Guess who didn't have one either.
------
bertil
Would it be inappropriate to see the irony in having the State of Beto
O’Rourke, a former hacker from the infamous Cult of the Dead Cow, victim of
hacks?
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
WebGL Water (2011) - joubert
http://madebyevan.com/webgl-water/
======
SXX
Anyone who want to check one of the best WebGL demos should try this:
[http://codeflow.org/webgl/craftscape/](http://codeflow.org/webgl/craftscape/)
~~~
FraKtus
Nice!
------
mkilling
Are there any more modern real-time water effects out there/being researched?
This basic effect has been around for a while now.
~~~
SXX
As far as I aware best available for real-time is NVIDIA FleX:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfonMfP__Ks](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfonMfP__Ks)
In open source field there is Mantaflow that available in Blender, but it's of
course not solution for real-time.
------
polpo
Cool tech demos like this one can have unforeseen uses: On an episode of the
podcast Reply All [1], a "trip sitter" would use this site to help calm people
down who were on bad trips, and it was pretty effective.
[1] [https://gimletmedia.com/episode/44-shine-on-you-crazy-
goldma...](https://gimletmedia.com/episode/44-shine-on-you-crazy-goldman/)
------
tehsauce
His webgl pathtracer is very cool also! [http://madebyevan.com/webgl-path-
tracing/](http://madebyevan.com/webgl-path-tracing/)
~~~
worldsayshi
Wow that's really close to "perfect" real time performance.
------
cryodesign
First time I saw this it was awesome - still is - real-time water effects in
the browser.
Didn't know Evan is co-founder of figma.com - maybe that's why the app feels
quite snappy in the browser.
~~~
dfield
Yep, Evan is my cofounder! We started talking about building collaborative
creative tools using WebGL shortly after he built this demo in an afternoon
during summer 2011.
Shameless plug: if anyone is interested in working with us on Figma, we're
hiring.
[https://www.figma.com/careers#jobs](https://www.figma.com/careers#jobs)
------
asadlionpk
This was amazing when I first saw it. More so because I was working on an SPH
implementation:
[http://jsexperiments.herokuapp.com/sph/](http://jsexperiments.herokuapp.com/sph/)
source: [https://github.com/asadm/SPHjs](https://github.com/asadm/SPHjs)
------
hyperpallium
Why aren't there floating-point textures on mobile GPUs? (To me) it seems a
pretty straightforward addition, and many more GPGPU tasks become easier.
Sure, you can en/decode yourself, but faster in silicon.
Sure, there's openCL, but it's more fiddly, gives worse performance, and no-
one uses it.
~~~
mechanical_berk
ES3 requires floating-point texture support, so any mobile GPU which supports
that will support floating-point textures. The extension may not be exposed in
ES2 of course.
Note that:
\- 32-bit float texture filtering is not required to be supported, as it may
cost significant area.
\- Floating-point framebuffer support is not required, due to patent issues...
:S
~~~
DiThi
Do you have more info on the patent issue?
~~~
mechanical_berk
See
[https://www.khronos.org/registry/OpenGL/extensions/EXT/EXT_c...](https://www.khronos.org/registry/OpenGL/extensions/EXT/EXT_color_buffer_float.txt)
and
[http://www.google.co.uk/patents/US6650327](http://www.google.co.uk/patents/US6650327)
~~~
hyperpallium
Not to turn this into a debate on patents, but even the patent itself seems to
admit it's an obvious and anticipated improvement made possible by cheaper
silicon:
> In an effort to gain the advantages conferred by operating on a floating
> point basis, some prior art systems have attempted to perform floating point
> through software emulation
> But as advances in semiconductor and computer technology enable greater
> processing power and faster speeds; as prices drop;...it has been
> __discovered__ by the present inventors that it is now practical to
> implement some portions or even the entire rasterization process by hardware
> in a floating point format. [emphasis added]
> Hence, due to the improvements in processor speed and other improvements
> that make it practical to operate on large amounts of data, it is now
> possible and cost beneficial to utilize the valuable information that can be
> provided by the frame buffer.
It's a good idea, but obvious - everyone was waiting for this inevitable
improvement. Their idea of floating-point-all-the-things is also good, but
just a matter of engineering. They don't disclose their exact engineering,
anyway; but just patent the general idea.
> Thus, there is a need for a graphical display system which predominately
> uses floating point throughout the entire geometry, rasterization, and frame
> buffering processes. The present invention provides one such display system.
I'm surprised it was granted, and I don't think it would upheld in court - but
it doesn't need to, it's just another plank in the patent portfolio.
------
rasz
Judging by how it runs on the desktop(4 year old gpu) and YT clip it was
developed on anemic laptop and never speed tested, reminds me of Wing
Commander or Test Drive 3. Learn from the past and dont link main loop speed
to framefate.
~~~
jlg23
I think for a demo that is perfectly fine since you get an immediate
performance indicator.
I remember that the initial fbdev-on-linux folks showcased their drivers with
well known animations[1] at 4-digit frame rates and never had to answer
performance questions again.
[1] IIRC something like glxgears and some 3d-tubes screensaver - might have
that wrong though, that was about 17 years ago.
~~~
lloeki
Indeed, and with surprising results. I remember running this on a laptop
(HD4000 or something) some years ago on which it ran like crap, and it took a
dedicated Radeon card (6870 IIRC) to have it smooth. Today it runs what
appears to be a solid vsync'd 60fps on my iPhone 6s.
------
acomjean
hint: you can click on the water
------
fulafel
This is from 2011 or so.
~~~
diimdeep
Mind blown when first saw this somewhere in 2011
------
tomxor
SPH is better and i've seen some webgl ones out there.
------
ge96
Just wanted to point out not working on Chromebook
Uncaught Error: This demo requires the OES_texture_float extension
I've seen this before though on Reddit, pretty cool how well it works on
Mobile.
Also I realize OP may not be related to the post/created it and I should file
a bug or whatever, I'm just posting it here.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Animatable: One property, two values, endless possiblities - Dekku
http://leaverou.github.io/animatable/
======
jwarren
I highly recommend front-end developers keep up to date with Lea Verou's blog
and talks. She's a great ambassador for standards-based development and
maintains a great sense of whimsy.
I really recommend her recent talk on border-radius, for example:
[http://vimeo.com/67567648](http://vimeo.com/67567648)
~~~
da02
Thanks for the recommendation and video link.
I had no idea who Verou was. I'm so behind.
------
augustl
The demo works in Firefox, not just Chrome. What is this, some kind of
standard that works across many different implementations? ;)
Too often do demos for showing off the web work well only in Chrome. This one
works fine in Fireox, the animations are very smooth. I'm on a very basic Arch
Linux setup I installed a couple of days ago, with no configs in any way other
than installing the correct driver for my on-chip Intel GPU. So if it works
for me, it should work for most people.
~~~
icesoldier
Even better, most of the demos work fine in IE10! It's like everyone is
converging on some kind of central specification on how web pages can
animate...
------
RyanZAG
This is actually a really good learning tool for showing people what different
html/css properties do by visually showing the ranges and effects they give.
------
edwinvdgraaf
Source can be found on:
[https://github.com/leaverou/animatable/](https://github.com/leaverou/animatable/)
------
rjbwork
This is really cool! I'm in my first job where I'm having to touch some front
end things, and this is definitely going to come in handy in learning how
various style elements work and interact with one another. Who knows, maybe
I'll end up using this library in some stuff!
------
sequoia
#19 shows an interesting bug (I believe a bug) in outline styles: the z-index
of the outline is above all previous elements but below all elements that
follow (chrome). I hope this is fixed cuz I'd like to use outline.
Another awesome demo from Lea Verou!!
------
carrollgt91
All of the border-width examples act somewhat strangely on Chrome and Firefox
both.
Otherwise, this is great. I love these demos as they really give you an
intuitive sense of how CSS works.
------
innguest
Why is everyone fawning over something we all here could easily make in Flash?
This problem was solved 10 years ago, people. Let it be a reminder that we've
regressed.
~~~
usingpond
I refuse to believe you earnestly do not understand why people have ditched
Flash for most animation on the web today.
------
usingpond
Is this a script that does something, or just a demo for what most frontend
developers already do on a daily basis?
------
chuckd1356
#35 gives me a seizure if my mouse isn't perfectly still while hovering.
------
ars
#15 is broken - sort of. It works, but breaks the page layout.
~~~
keerthiko
Not for me in Chrome.
~~~
sp332
Even in Chrome, 22 pushes 24 right off the end of the line which means
everything after that randomly jumps around.
------
AmitRele
works excellent in Chrome
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
The Evil Within the Comparison Functions - AndreyKarpov
https://www.viva64.com/en/b/0509/
======
Animats
Oh, I thought this was going to be about floating point comparisons.
The IEEE floating point people thought this through, and a NaN is generated
when there's no meaningful numeric value for a result. But they were just
doing the floating point unit, which, at the time, wasn't even part of the
main CPU. This led to a problem.
In IEEE floating point, the possible results of comparing two values are
"greater", "less", "equal", and "none of the above". Any comparison involving
a Not a Number is a "none of the above".
When "a > b" has no meaning, the hardware returns False. If a or b is a NaN,
"a > b", "a < b", and "a == b" are all false. Most programmers don't expect
that.
Booleans and branching don't handle this. There's no "not a boolean" value. A
few languages throw an exception on if statements where the condition is
undefined, but that's seldom hooked to floating point.
If you compute with non-signalling NaNs, don't compare the results until
you've checked with "isnan()" that it's meaningful to do so.
~~~
Thiez
Rust has the `PartialOrd` trait, which allows you to compare two things, and
it returns an `Option<Ordering>`. When two things don't have an ordering, you
can return `Option::None`. There is also `Ord`, which extends `PartialOrd`,
and can be implemented for things that have a total ordering. Naturally, the
floating point numbers (`f32` and `f64`) only implement `PartialOrd`. It's
quite nice :)
~~~
kbenson
I too was going to mention this. As a non-Rust programmer that's been
following it very closely for a long time now, it's interesting to see the
pain points of Rust pop up. It could just be my view and confirmation bias,
but almost invariably when programmers express frustration with something
harder to do in Rust, it's because they were making incorrect assumptions
previously.
For example, I was previously exposed to the floating point comparison problem
referenced by Animats through someone complaining about comparison and sorting
(IIRC) steps required in Rust to work on floats. The "Woah, you're attempting
an operation on a type that doesn't hold for the invariants this operation
requires, please add ornamentation to make sure it's what you mean" compile
time error is something I appreciate, because I would much rather fix it
initially than accidentally run into it in production at runtime and have to
shoehorn a fix in later. I've had enough of that for a lifetime.
~~~
sgift
> I too was going to mention this. As a non-Rust programmer that's been
> following it very closely for a long time now, it's interesting to see the
> pain points of Rust pop up. It could just be my view and confirmation bias,
> but almost invariably when programmers express frustration with something
> harder to do in Rust, it's because they were making incorrect assumptions
> previously.
I'd say it's a 50:50(1) split between "the compiler is not advanced enough to
understand that this is okay" and "it's okay ... really ... it's ... oh.
you're right. Damn, never thought about that before"
Small edit: (1)Numbers are subject to further analysis.
------
ot
Another common class of bugs in C++ is comparison functions that don't respect
the strict weak ordering axioms [1]. I've seen a lot of implementations in
which cmp(x, x) is true.
This causes undefined behavior in STL algorithms, for example std::sort can
easily go out of bounds.
A good rule of thumb to remember the axioms is that the comparator should
behave like <, not <=.
[1]
[http://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/concept/LessThanComparable](http://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/concept/LessThanComparable)
~~~
HumanDrivenDev
Are there type systems where these axioms can be encoded? Dependent typing,
perhaps.
~~~
aweinstock
As an exercise in learning Coq, I've implemented a proof-carrying version of
the partial-ordering relation: [https://github.com/aweinstock314/coq-
stuff/blob/a1831f9e1e95...](https://github.com/aweinstock314/coq-
stuff/blob/a1831f9e1e957c0038996a5a65fcb4391967660a/poset_lattice.v#L3-L24)
There's four different types there: POSET, POSET_PROOFS, Pord, and POSET'.
\- POSET only has an underlying type t and a function "leq" that takes two
elements of type t and returns a bool (but doesn't enforce semantics of that
bool).
\- POSET_PROOFS embeds a POSET, and carries three proofs (reflexivity,
antisymmetry, and transitivity) certifying that the underlying "leq" function
is actually the less-than-or-equal function of a partial ordering.
\- Pord is a result type with 4 values meant to denote the exhaustive
possiblities of "strictly less"/"equal"/"strictly greater"/"uncomparable".
\- POSET' has a type t', a function "pcomp" that takes two elements of type t'
and returns a Pord, and a proof for transitivity in the "strictly less" case.
POSET' has fewer fields to instantiate, but POSET_PROOFS allows writing proofs
that are closer to traditional math.
Fortunately, the fact that it's possible to write conversions between
POSET_PROOFS and POSET' (done in the code as "from" and "to" in the
POSET_ISOMORPHIMS module right below) indicate that they have the same
properties.
------
geocar
We need a function "clamp" which pins a value to within two others.
clamp(a,b,c)
One way of writing this is:
clamp(x,min,max) { return x < min ? min : x > max ? max : x; }
and this is a fine way to do it, but sometimes people forget the order of the
arguments, so they feel the need to invent an IDE to help them remember.
Another way is writing:
clamp(min,x,max) { return x < min ? min : x > max ? max : x; }
which has the advantage of "visually" putting the unknown between two values.
That can help people remember which argument goes where.
Yet another way is:
clamp(min,max,x) { return x < min ? min : x > max ? max : x; }
That one is popular amongst ML, Haskell, F# etc, programmers because they have
partial application. They write something like:
let clampVolume = clamp 0 11
and pat themselves on the back because now they have a function for clamping
volumes.
Another reason this one is popular is because the last expression is likely to
be the biggest expression. That might pay dividends on keeping bugs out.
Something I'd like people to consider is simply taking the middle value.
function clamp(a,b,c) { return [].slice.call(arguments,0).sort()[1] }
function clamp($a,$b,$c){ $x=func_get_args();sort($x);return $x[1]; }
clamp(A,B,C) -> lists:nth(2, lists:sort([A,B,C])).
sub clamp { @_ = sort @_; $_[1] }
clamp:{*x@&1=<x:(x;y;z)};
clamp:{asc[(x;y;z)]1}
This supports any crazy rationale you might have for a particular order, and
it is resistant to a lot of bugs you're likely to make since the code isn't
particularly repetitive no matter what language you use. Oh and it doesn't
have any comparison operators either.
The only real downside is that it's slow.
Oh well.
Before we go and fix the compilers to recognise these contortions as a "clamp"
function and optimise for it, maybe it's still worth meditating on next time
you have a bunch of conditions in your code.
~~~
dyarosla
Some languages let you spell out the arguments upon calling a function.
clamp(x:3, min:1, max:5)
Oh look! No mental strain required to think about what the function does nor
what the order should be to minimize mistakes; it’s clear as day!
I wish more languages adopted the option to do this.
~~~
dyarosla
Moreover, you could also allow for something like passing a structure of
parameters.
clamp({min:2, max:5, x:3})
^parameters can be rearranged as you see fit
There! Now the programmer can decide what’s the way they want to call the
function that makes the most sense to them.
~~~
dvlsg
If you use named arguments, can't you typically rearrange the order?
Don't get me wrong, I use destructured arguments in js and it works fine, but
I thought named arguments in other languages solve that particular issue as
well.
------
razzimatazz
This is why I introduced the "Copy & Paste Error Scorecard" to my (small)
team. Everybody manages to give away points from time to time. More serious
points could be scored for mistakes getting as far as Git, but the best points
are the ones it takes about 4-5 minutes of going "huh?" to spot. Its nice to
remember that copy-and-paste tooling is a privilege, not a programmers' right.
And while I'm here, My favorite technique for reducing these mistakes - is
using "highlight occurrences" in the IDE, with a nice bright color ; click the
cursor on a variable or method call, all matching uses jump out at you. This
gives a great visual pattern when working in copy-pasted code blocks.
------
Izkata
This reminds me of a running joke we had in highschool: When you learn
Calculus, you forget Algebra.
Because the vast majority of our mistakes involved adding or subtracting
wrong, something "simple" that we didn't expend much thought on.
------
montrose
"In most cases programmers make an error in the last line of similar text
blocks."
I've noticed something similar in prose. When there's a sentence in a
paragraph that should be cut, it's disproportionately often the last one. I've
seen this in my own writing and in other people's. Interestingly, it's
particularly noticeable in the writing of Wodehouse; these bad final sentences
are one reason his later stuff is not quite as good.
~~~
pavel_lishin
Taking this heuristic to its ultimate conclusion, one should trim writing
until nothing remains.
(I should have followed that heuristic in this comment.)
~~~
OtterCoder
Trim until the idea to be conveyed disappears. Then ctrl-z once.
------
jcrites
Totally agree with the concerns of the article. When you have to write a class
of comparison functions like this in many types, it's arguably a violation of
the Don't Repeat Yourself (DRY) principle to implement comparison with unique,
bespoke code in each type. Scenarios like this beg for a library or type
system to make things easier.
In Java's case, a better solution is Guava's ComparisonChain:
public int compareTo(Foo that) {
return ComparisonChain.start()
.compare(this.aString, that.aString)
.compare(this.anInt, that.anInt)
.compare(this.anEnum, that.anEnum, Ordering.natural().nullsLast())
.result();
}
There are similar utility methods for computing the object hashCode() and
toString() and so on. See:
[https://github.com/google/guava/wiki/CommonObjectUtilitiesEx...](https://github.com/google/guava/wiki/CommonObjectUtilitiesExplained)
There's still an opportunity to make mistakes like typos here, but due to the
visual consistency it's less likely. Actual logic errors in the comparison are
also less likely.
A more powerful language than Java could potentially automate the _entire_
implementation of methods like these (rather than just some of it), by
reflecting over the set of fields in a class. Apache Lombok's annotations can
kind of do this for a number of common boilerplate methods, though it looks
like not yet for compareTo():
[https://projectlombok.org/features/Data](https://projectlombok.org/features/Data)
C# properties are an example of an improvement over Java, for example, but C#
class implementors are still responsible for dealing with implementing
Equals(), GetHashCode(), and ToString() just like Java, as far as I know.
I would be interested to hear if there are any current programming languages
that handle this use-case particularly well. Any Haskell, F#, or Scala folks
out there who can comment?
~~~
tpxl
Java 8 also has `Comparator::comparing` and `Comparator::thenComparing`, so
your code example above would be
Comparator.comparing(Foo::getA).
thenComparing(Foo::getB).
thenComparign(Foo::getC);
This makes much more sense than your example I think, since it will use the
same getter on both methods, completely eliminating this class of errors.
------
chopin
Could it be that at least some of the errors are due to autocomplete in the
IDE? This came to my mind at the very first example given and I have been
guilty of this by pressing "return" at the first option offered by the IDE
instead of scrolling down to the correct one first. This feature of an IDE (as
much as I like it) makes it even easier to think already about the next task.
------
shady-lady
I love these PVS-Studio write ups.
------
CapacitorSet
I can understand the business reasons behind it, but it would be much better
if these checks were implemented directly in mainstream compilers for the
benefit of everyone.
~~~
brianberns
Most (all?) functional programming languages implement structural equality
automatically. Referential equality only makes sense when records can be
mutated. Immutability eliminates whole categories of errors.
~~~
gizmo686
Haskell does not quite implement it automatically, but does support auto-
generating it. Assuming all of of a type's component types support structural
equality, a new type can support it by adding "deriving (Eq)" to the type
declaration.
Ocaml has both structural and referential equality tests automatically.
Unfortunately (for C-style programmers), structural equality uses "=", while
referential equality uses "==".
From the Ocaml doc:
>On mutable types such as references, arrays, byte sequences, records with
mutable fields and objects with mutable instance variables, e1 == e2 is true
if and only if physical modification of e1 also affects e2. On non-mutable
types, the behavior of ( == ) is implementation-dependent; however, it is
guaranteed that e1 == e2 implies compare e1 e2 = 0.
~~~
wyager
> Ocaml has both structural and referential equality tests automatically.
Yep, and Ocaml equality is a giant pain. As for ==, referential equality is
almost never what you want, so it’s (IMO) unwise to expose it except as an
unsafe primitive. As for =, OCaml’s “polymorphic”/“structural” equality is
usually wrong for any non-trivial data structure, so all the comparison-based
standard library are functorized over comparison anyway. Use of polymorphic
‘=‘ is basically banned in the codebase I work on.
Haskell’s Eq/Ord typeclasses are _vastly_ easier to use and harder to mess up.
I think this particular use case is a more or less unambiguous win for
typeclasses.
------
pyrocolada
You are making some covert buffer-overflow-vulnerability-crafters very sad
now... their easy subterfuge is revealed :-o
------
berdario
I find it interesting that a few of the patterns showed here can (should) be
prevented by the compiler
Pattern: A < B, B > A
Can be prevented by using a compare/compareTo function. Even better if the
data type returned by it is not an Int, but rather an enumeration/sum of
LessThan | Equal | GreatherThan (which is pretty common in ML-family
languages).
Such a data type will automatically give you warnings if you forget one of the
comparison cases (or if you mistakenly go over the same case multiple times)
Pattern: a Member of the Class is Compared with itself
All of the examples are about writing a definition of compare/compareTo for
the specific class.
This can be prevented by having the compiler automatically generating the
implementation, as in Haskell:
[https://www.haskell.org/onlinereport/derived.html](https://www.haskell.org/onlinereport/derived.html)
Pattern: Incorrect Check of Null References
This is handled by the usual Maybe/Optional types
Pattern: Incorrect Loops
This is quite interesting, I think it's fine to have a `,` operator that
ignores the result on the left. What is not fine is to have such an operator
for a side-effects-free context. Or, put another way, C-style `for` loops are
too clever for their own good. If a for loop syntax is:
for( initialization; test; mutation)
obviously you want to have some sort of side effect for `initialization` and
`mutation`. But most often you don't want/can do without side effects for the
`test`, and disallowing `,` in tests would prevent these issues.
Similarly, for while loops, even if it's a common idiom/shortcut to have
`++value` or `--value` in the test expression, it's not without shortcomings.
Ultimately, a for-each loop, (or better, a map) is less error-prone. That
would also prevent the other issues listed under the same pattern (in which an
unsigned int had been used for a decreasing counter).
Pattern: Sloppy Copying of the Code
The Compiler::RefCntCmp example ought to be prevented by factoring out more
the code into reusable functions.
MySql's rr_cmp unfortunately is an example of, even when your tool has safer
way to do things, you might miss out, in the (often misguided?) attempt to
optimize it further.
Just like your code might not use the appropriate data types, and thus be
unable to rely on safety guarantees provided by the compiler. Plenty of
projects don't use static analyzers, and thus miss out on all the checks
mentioned in the article.
I'd avoid writing new projects in C family languages, but given that there's
plenty of code written in those languages already out there, I'm glad that
tools like the one described in the article exist.
------
SFjulie1
Oh I thought it was about JS insanity.
Well known caveats : don't use == but ===.
What about cmp implicit operator in js?
Well, it relies on == :)
same with lt/gt
"0" === 0 false "0" < 0 false
"0" <= 0 true "0" > 0 false
WTFOMGBBQ?!!!!
The implicit type conversion mess is all over the place in JS. Changing == to
=== is by far not sufficient.
"<==", "==>", "truecmp" would be required to correct a tad the mess still.
More correct solution would be to burn JS to the ashes at my opinion, with
emacs, modern hardware, devops and startups
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
The Mystery of the Havana Syndrome - dbuxton
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/11/19/the-mystery-of-the-havana-syndrome
======
LeifCarrotson
> The name is a pseudonym, which she requested in order to protect her
> privacy.) Her life in Havana was fascinating but orderly. She lived with her
> husband and their twelve-year-old twins
This is the problem with "anonymizing" a person by just changing their name,
or exchanging a name in a database with a number.
There's a pretty high probability that the number of FSI agents in Havana with
12-year-old twins is precisely one. We already know she works in the embassy
in Havana, which means she's one of a couple hundred people, she's female,
which cuts that number in half, she has twins, which cuts that number by about
100.
~~~
throwawaymath
Yeah, that's interesting.
We start with approximately 33 bits needed to uniquely identify her. She lives
in Havana, which immediately slices 11 bits from our search space (the
population of Havana is around 2.13 million, or ~2^21). She's female, so we
can roughly cut our population in half again; now we're only at 20 bits.
She worked in the Havana embassy in 2017 and was one of the people impacted by
the strange health issues. There were about 24 people impacted (insofar as I
can quickly find online), which means she must be one of these 24 people.
Assuming all of the other 23 are also female, now there are only 4 bits
remaining (24 = 2^4.58).
Finally, she has twin 12 year old children. We'll have to make a few fuzzy
assumptions here, but given 1) a birth rate of ~1.5 per female per year, 2) a
world female population of ~3,232,000,000 in 2005, and 3) a chance of having
twins at about 3.33%, she is most likely in a set of about 159,984,000. This
is only about 27 bits, which means we get a little over a 5 bit reduction by
placing her in this set. That gives us the last 4 bits we need.
This is all assuming that the information given in this article is correct and
the foregoing estimates are comparable to the real world statistics. This is a
little fuzzy because I'm not sure if she's actually Cuban or American (and
therefore where she was in 2005, or which estimates to use for calculating
twin and birth rate statistics).
~~~
richardbdrowley
She doesn't live in Havana anymore.
~~~
throwawaymath
Well actually between having worked in the embassy and having twins in 2005,
there are still theoretically enough bits to uniquely identify her. Knowing
where she lives just bolsters the selection a bit.
------
molticrystal
They said it wasn't likely a toxin, or at least there were no toxins that
screening picked up on. But could some other fungus/mold or other pathogen
infect the people there or could they accumulate a toxin that wasn't screened
for? Just how clean did they get and keep that place at?
------
ashleyn
Is it just me or does it seem this would be trivial to detect with tangible
proof? One or several software-defined radios can be set up to listen to the
full breadth of the radio spectrum. If an incident like this is ever reported
again, correlate the waterfall view with the time of the incident, and see if
there were any increases in activity in that period. I currently believe this
was a mass hysteria.
~~~
seventytwo
It's not trivial. Beams could be narrow and could only be on for short periods
of time. Combine that with all kinds of noise, stray signals, and other false
positives, and you'd still be searching for a needle in a haystack. It's not
clear what frequency to even look for...
------
empath75
I would be stunned to discover that this is anything other than a case of mass
hysteria.
Psychosomatic symptoms are still symptoms and stress and anxiety can cause
physical changes to the body and brain and long lasting effects.
~~~
tim333
Dunno though. From the article:
>But their skepticism vanished when they saw the patients. “There was not one
individual on the team who was not convinced that this was a real thing,”
Smith said.
and from another article:
([https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/08/180829115456.h...](https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/08/180829115456.htm))
>"We have seen this before when the Soviets irradiated the U.S. Embassy in
Moscow in the days of the Cold War," he said.
So the Soviets / Russians have form and the symptoms fit. There was also a van
seen which could have had the gear:
>...looked outside her home after hearing the disturbing sounds and seen a van
speeding away. ([https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/01/science/sonic-attack-
cuba...](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/01/science/sonic-attack-cuba-
microwave.html))
------
warent
I'm an American going to Havana tomorrow until Friday. Here's to hoping my
head doesn't get long-range microwaved...?
~~~
dgut
As an American, Cuba is probably the safest place you can visit in LA.
~~~
gnulinux
What about Costa Rica, Uruguay, Chile..? I think Cuba is pretty safe but it's
not the only safe country in LA.
------
owenmarshall
So the first “victims” were CIA officers, and the CIA the first to start
pushing to close the embassy and return to the status quo developed and
favored by the CIA for decades.
No evidence exists to suggest anything actually happened to the victims, and
what limited scientific evidence does exist is being criticized.
And all of this just happened to directly support the official hard line
position taken by the new US government.
What a remarkable set of coincidences!
~~~
wizzard
Did you read the article? If you did then you’re being purposely misleading
about what you read. The article was about the many non-CIA officers affected.
There is plenty of evidence of brain injury, just no evidence of how it
happened or what agent(s) caused it. And how about the coincidence that the
hard line position of the new US government lines up perfectly with the
desires of hard line Cubans, Russia, and China. You insinuate that the new
administration is the only group of people in the world interested in
scuttling normalization.
~~~
owenmarshall
> There is plenty of evidence of brain injury
>> In fact, aside from the victims’ accounts, there was no conclusive evidence
that anyone in Cuba was attacked at all.
>> an investigation carried out by Canada and Cuba has thus far found no
evidence of attacks.
>> After the study was published, JAMA received letters from other
specialists, arguing that the study was flawed, especially in neglecting
psychological explanations.
>> "After a year and a half, the most powerful nation on earth hasn’t been
able to present one single piece of evidence"
>> But he acknowledged that more data were needed to convince skeptics that
the syndrome was real. He said his team was awaiting “potential tangible
evidence” from a new neuroimaging study involving the victims.
> You insinuate that the new administration is the only group of people in the
> world interested in scuttling normalization
Sure, plenty of other parties interested in stopping the normalization of
relationships exist. But their state intelligence agents aren't the ones
claiming injury from a mysterious attack that no one seems to be able to prove
happened.
> The article was about the many non-CIA officers affected.
Psychosomatic illnesses are a real thing. They can cause real and serious
impact to people's health.
A psychosomatic illness arising after the stress of living and working in a
country that has been "the enemy" for six decades, after being told that you
will be under "constant surveillance by Cuban intelligence", after their
intelligence agents make it clear to you that you're under surveillance? After
three agents of your state intelligence suddenly come down with a mysterious,
unexplainable illness? Seems entirely plausible to me.
~~~
richardbdrowley
And what about the people who suffered this without any prior warning?
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Google Buzz data to be copied to Google Drive for shutdown - tekacs
Dear Buzz user,<p>In October 2011 we announced that [Google Buzz was shutting down]. On or after 17 July 2013, Google will take the last step in the shut-down and will save a copy of your Buzz posts to your [Google Drive], a service for storing files online. Google will store two (2) types of files to your Google Drive and the newly-created files will not count against your storage limits.<p>1. The first type of file will be private, only accessible to you, containing a snapshot of the Google Buzz public and private posts that you authored.<p>2. The second type of file will contain a copy of only your Google Buzz public posts. By default it will be viewable by anyone with the link and may appear in search results and on your [Google Profile] (if you've linked to your Buzz posts). Note, any existing links to your Google Buzz content will redirect users to this file.<p>3. Any comments that you made on other users' posts will only be saved to those users' files and not to yours. Once the change described in this email is final, only that user will be able to change the sharing settings of those files. This means that if you have commented on another author's private post, that author could choose to make that post and its comments public. If you would like to avoid that possibility, [delete] all your Buzz content now.<p>4. The new Google Drive files will only contain comments from users who previously enabled Google Buzz, and the files will not contain comments that were deleted prior to moving the data to your Google Drive.<p>Once the files have been created, they will be treated the same as any other Drive file. They are yours to do with as you please. This includes downloading them, updating who can access them or deleting them.<p>Before these files are created, you can [view the Google Buzz posts that you have authored here]. If you do not want any of your Buzz posts or comments to be saved to Google Drive files, you can immediately [delete] your Google Buzz account and data.
======
tekacs
This struck me as a surprisingly mature way of shutting down such a service -
certainly more palatable than expecting all users to export...
Pasting the original e-mail here seemed the best way to avoid the subtle
'interpretations' of content in blogospam. :/
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Show HN: Short Lessons from 21 Long Books - durmonski
https://durmonski.com/21-lessons-from-21-books/
======
m10i
This is a wonderful idea! But I can't help but wonder... is this legal? Seems
like a litigation nightmare.
~~~
durmonski
I believe this type of work falls under the Fair use doctrine, where you can
use a limited copyrighted material without having to first acquire permission
from the copyright holder.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: Are you planning to move HN to IPv6? - lookforipv6
Are you planning to move HN to IPv6?<p>It would be great to see in IPv6 the content of this site.
======
wmf
What's the benefit?
I would expect pg to adopt IPv6 right after he replaces his table-based markup
with CSS.
~~~
lookforipv6
honestly not many, but:
they have to do it sooner or later, the sooner the better.
it would be an example to other people here deploying their websites (may be
this is to late to little but some people really would follow their example)
because it is the right think to do.
because contrary to css vs tables, ipv6 is not backward compatible with ipv4.
and because i could add their website to my experiment, but that it is more in
my benefit than in theirs =).
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Datos IO 2.0: Cloud Mobility and Cloud Data Protection for the Multi-Cloud Era - thakurtarun
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/datos-io-unveils-latest-application-130000533.html
======
mrbee
This is great solution!
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Carl Sagan and Ann Druyan on Science Friday in 1992 - carlosgg
http://www.sciencefriday.com/segments/two-cosmic-explorers-investigate-the-world-within-us/
======
carlosgg
There's a Federation of American Scientists?! Sounds like Star Trek! :-)
[https://fas.org/](https://fas.org/)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Effective Testing with RSpec 3, Getting Real: Integration Specs - the-red-button
http://blog.travisspangle.com/effective-testing-with-rspec-3-getting-real-integration-specs/
======
the-red-button
Completed Part 2, building an application top-down testing! Excited to get
some use out of the bisect flag and learning more uses for meta-tags.
Appreciate any feedback.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Tell HN: Triplebyte reverses, emails apology - trianx
This just landed in my inbox. The discussion on hackernews (<a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23279837" rel="nofollow">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23279837</a>) surely helped Triplebyte understand that it was a mistake to create public profiles of their users by default:<p>Email by Triplebyte CEO, Ammon:
---<p>Hi xxxxx,<p>There’s no other way to put this--I screwed up badly. On Friday evening, I sent an email to you about a new feature called public Triplebyte profiles. We failed to think through the effects of this feature on our community, and made the profiles default public with an option to opt out. Many of you were rightfully angry. I am truly sorry. As CEO, this is my fault. I made this decision. Effective immediately, we are canceling this feature.<p>You came to us with the goal of landing a great software engineering job. As part of that, you entrusted us with your personal, sensitive information, including both the fact that you are job searching as well as the results of your assessments with us. Launching a profile feature that would automatically make any of that data public betrayed that trust.<p>Rather than safeguarding the fact that you are or were job searching, we threatened exposure. Current employers might retaliate if they saw that you were job searching. You did not expect that any personal information you’d given us, in the context of a private, secure job search, would be used publicly without your explicit consent. I sincerely apologize. It was my failure.<p>So, what happened? How did I screw this up? I’ve been asking myself this question a bunch over the past 48 hours. I can point to two factors (which by no means excuse the decision). The first was that the profiles as spec’d were an evolution of a feature we already had (Triplebyte Certificates--these are not default public). I failed to see the significance of “default public” in my head. The second factor was the speed we were trying to move at to respond to the COVID recession. We’re a hiring company and hiring is in crisis. The floor has fallen out on parts of our business, and other parts are under unprecedented growth. We've been in a state of churn as we quickly try various things to adapt. But I let myself get caught in this rush and did not look critically enough at the features we were shipping. Inexcusably, I ignored our users’ very real privacy concerns. This was a breach of trust not only in the decision, but in my actual thought process. The circumstances don’t excuse this. The privacy violation should have been obvious to me from the beginning, and the fact that I did not see this coming was a major failure on my part.<p>Our mission at Triplebyte has always been to build a background-blind hiring process. I graduated at the height of the financial crisis as most companies were doing layoffs (similar to what many recent-grads are experiencing today). My LinkedIn profile and resume had nothing on them other than the name of a school few people had heard of. I applied to over 100 jobs the summer after I graduated, and I remember just never hearing back. I know that a lot of people are going through the same thing right now. I finally got my first job at a company that had a coding challenge rather than a resume screen. They cared about what I could do, not what was on my resume. This was a foundational insight for me. It's still the case today, though, that companies rely primarily on resume screens that don’t pick up what most candidates can actually do--making the hiring problem much worse than it needs to be. This is the problem we're trying to fix.<p>We believed that we could do so by building a better Linkedin profile that was focused on your skills, rather than where you went to school, where you worked, or who you knew. I still believe there's a need for something like this. But to release it as a default public feature was not just a major mistake, it was a betrayal. I'm ashamed and I'm sorry.<p>Triplebyte can’t function without the trust of the engineering community. Last Friday I lost a big chunk of that trust. We’re now going to try to earn it back. I’m not sure that’s fully possible, but we have to try. What I will do now is slow down, take a step back, and learn the lessons I need to avoid repeating this.<p>I understand that cancelling this feature does not undo the harm. It’s only one necessary step. Please let me know any other concerns or questions that I can answer (replies to this email go to me). I am sorry to all of you for letting you down.<p>Sincerely,<p>-Ammon
======
dang
All: this thread has more than one page of comments. If you click the More
link at the bottom you'll get to the others. I post this reminder because
confusion appeared
([https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23306062](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23306062)).
We hope to go back to single-page threads as soon as some performance
improvements are ready. Previous explanations are at
[https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...](https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20paginat&sort=byDate&type=comment).
------
photonios
I am not an active Triplebyte user, but I have an account and followed the
thread(s).
This e-mail (which I also got) seems like a heartfelt apology. They fucked up,
realized it and turned the ship around. They listened and that's what counts
for me. They listened to the negative feedback and responded to it.
Some comments around here are extremely negative of the whole situation. More
negative than I think they deserve. They could've pushed through and ignored
all the feedback they got. They didn't, and that's enough for to show the
company and its CEO isn't utterly rotten.
@ammon Thanks for listening and participating in the discussions on HN. You
made a mistake, but the fact that you responded is enough for me to put my
trust in Triplebyte in the future if the need arises.
~~~
mosselman
> This e-mail (which I also got) seems like a heartfelt apology.
Even if it is heartfelt, I'd argue that if no alarm bells went off internally
when they were discussing this feature, they are not the group of people to
entrust with information such as this.
~~~
akerl_
Given the prevalence of comments like this, I wonder why any company would
ever bother offering an apology or retraction.
As soon as a company does something that a chunk of people on the internet
don’t agree with, there’s really no way out. They’re going to get bad press
regardless of whether they retract, whether they apologize, and whether they
say they’re taking actions to avoid the sequence that led to the action in
question.
But alongside that, for every time the internet mob has risen up over a
company’s action, very few companies seem to have experienced major long term
effects. I bet everybody knows a few people who have quit Facebook/GitHub, or
who rage about Oracle business practices or MongoDB stability, but these
companies still manage to keep trucking along.
In light of this, I’m mostly surprised that Triplebyte bothered apologizing;
it seems unlikely to do them any good, and it’s unclear to me whether
continuing course would have actually done as much harm to their bottom line
as the prior Hackernews thread appeared to indicate.
~~~
mrmr1993
The current position is "sorry for breaking your trust, please trust us". It's
hard to find it compelling.
> Given the prevalence of comments like this, I wonder why any company would
> ever bother offering an apology or retraction.
To project my own opinion onto others: these comments are warranted because an
apology has no actual value. The fact remains that Triplebytes can still do
this if they wish to, and they are constrained only by what they can manage to
slip past their users.
There's a stark asymmetry in the digital space, where service providers are
protected by the legal language in their TOS or EULA, but the users have to
trust that the service provider will not act outside their interests, and with
no recourse. By contrast, in a normal contract negotiation, there will be an
opportunity for both sides to ammend the contract to better serve their
interests.
If Triplebytes wanted to show that they will not attempt to do this again,
they could break this asymmetry and constrain themselves in their user
contract, accepting all resulting liability or specifying concrete penalties
if they do persue this route in the future. An apology is just a meaningless
PR exercise.
~~~
Aeolun
> The current position is "sorry for breaking your trust, please trust us".
> It's hard to find it compelling.
Why is this a hard thing to do? It’s literally what everyone who ever messes
something up is asking you to do.
Just because someone once committed a broken build, doesn’t mean I’ll never
again trust them with access.
It’s argubly more like “sorry for being a moron, but I hear you. Please give
us another chance”?
~~~
didibus
Break the build, okay we give you a second chance, delete the database and all
backups when you were hired as the DBA? You're probably going to be looking
for another job.
~~~
didibus
Lol did this actually happen to more people then I'd assume? Anyone got a
good: IAMA dba that deleted all our data?
~~~
erikbye
Ask Gitlab.
------
lmeyerov
Good lesson for other founders here. Early on nobody knows you, but as soon as
they do, you'll need to have chosen if you're on the trust-and-brand-building
marathon or not. By default, if you do nothing, you're building up to an
explosion like this that can take years to recover from.
How did the CEO, the board, the sales team, the marketing team, customer
support team, and the engineering team all fail to notice and act on a gross
privacy breach? How will that change?
It's good the CEO is starting to take responsibility, but an apology letter is
roughly, apology, acknowledgement, explanation, and plan to fix / prevent
repeat. I see a lot of "I...", but no post-mortem on how the internal culture
they've built encouraged breach of trust & privacy in favor of growth numbers,
and if/how that'll change top-to-bottom. For now, it remains, "I'm sorry you
caught me and made me feel like the bad person I don't think of myself as."
Once you think of systems and culture, and start tracing through the dark
patterns around the launch and the scope of the initiative, things get
uncomfortable. Hiring, on-boarding, feature planning, feature reviews,
personal responsibility, feature ownership, management prioritization, trust &
safety oversight... .
~~~
wolfgang42
Ammon says a postmortem is in the works:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23304127](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23304127)
~~~
lmeyerov
Yes, I was responding to the apology. This should have been part of it, and is
part of the lesson to founders. If you are in position of responsibility,
mistakes are inevitable, and so is having to correctly apologize. (I learned
the hard way.)
This incident is about a self-inflicted customer data breach. As it surprised
the CEO, it suggests a full-company culture & governance issue, and is hard to
be reactive about. Even when things are going well, customer responsibility &
data protection should be a constant and non-obvious responsibility _for
everyone_ as soon as anything like marketing, sales, engineering, hiring,
delegation, etc. gets interesting. A _lot_ of people are involved in a major
move like this and the governance structures that inform them. Think their VCs
/ VPs / managers / etc either signing off... or not caring.
And again, I'm writing this more as a warning for other founders. Building a
culture is a constant marathon, and it's way harder to fix one. (For the CEO:
I'd consult with a few folks knowledgeable about communicating apologies ASAP,
esp. before any further unvetted public comms, and for longer-term, get
regular external advisors + directly responsible internal leaders for fixing
culture + security, and rethink why multiple internal leaders failed in both.
But that's super generic.)
------
JoeCortopassi
One of two things happened:
1\. Triplebyte attempted a big move against LinkedIn, tried to ease the blow
to users by dumping on a Friday before memorial day weekend
2\. Triplebyte, the company built around helping people find jobs, truthfully
didn't understand that people might have concerns about their current
companies knowing they are job-hunting
It's pretty obvious it's #1, and that opt-out rather than opt-in was the only
way it would gain the critical mass needed. The outcry hit critical mass and
now they need to walk it back, until they have a different strategy for re-
segmenting LinkedIn's market
~~~
ammon
I'd say it was both. I wanted to move against LinkedIn profiles, I thought
that opt-out was the way to get critical mass, and I screwed up and did not
realize how large a privacy violation this was.
~~~
krn
> I thought that opt-out was the way to get critical mass
But what about following every dark pattern in the book to prevent people from
actually opting out[1][2]? There was not even an option to opt-out
indefinitely.
It seemed like an extremely carefully engineered effort to trick the users.
How can something like this be considered "unintentional"?
[1]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23280040](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23280040)
[2]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23283237](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23283237)
~~~
skinkestek
Regarding [2] This is extremely bad, like Google+ forced-real-name-policies
bad..!
(For those who wonder: that and the Buzz incident made lots of people hate or
at least distrust Google.)
Why why why do companies do this?
During the last 6 months I've stopped logging into Stack Overflow. It is a
nice resource but for me it is read only for now because they messed up so
hard - and refused to come up with a real apology.
Same goes for Quora: they betrayed us hard by trying to tell everyone what we
were looking at. (Edit: next sentence added later:) Now imagine you've been
reading up about health issues and realize it is suddenly on your profile.
Still now, many years later I shun them as they haven't as far as I see come
clean.
In some cases, if it get caught early enough, just saying: "we messed up,
sorry, here's what we will do:" can be enough.
In other cases - where there are layers of bad patterns, lies and contempt for
users and volunteers I actively want to punish them until they start behaving.
Quora (broadcasting sensitive information), Google (trying to kill the web,
insulting me with insanely misplaced ads for years, trying to kill Firefox),
Stack Overflow all goes on my list of companies that I actively work against,
but I guess only until I see real change ;-)
~~~
AlexCoventry
I think I missed the SO news. What happened there?
~~~
skinkestek
They kicked a mod (Monica) who dared to ask questions about the implementation
of their new policy regarding gender words.
IIRC Monica asked if would be OK if she (or someone else?) wrote in a way that
sidestepped the whole issue, for example by writing about "the user" instead
of "he and/or she".
Again IIRC they leaked information to newspapers, misrepresented the case and
issued one or more non-apologies before trying to pretend nothing had
happened.
~~~
AgentME
Is it really surprising that a moderator, who is meant to be enforcing the
rules, protesting a "respect trans people's pronouns" rule with "what if I
just stop using pronouns" didn't go well for them? StackOverflow should pick
moderators that respect the spirit of the rules they're going to be enforcing.
~~~
__blockcipher__
You should read more about the situation. I think your take is quite naive,
frankly.
And why it became okay to compel someone to use a certain pronoun as opposed
to compelling them to _not misgender_ is absolute lunacy. Monica wanted to
write her sentences in a way that did not require pronouns period, and they
decided that was not okay. Not to mention all the mud-dragging and character
assassination they pulled.
I’m on mobile so won’t dig up the link but go find what Monica wrote on it
~~~
judge2020
This is the best high-level overview:
[https://meta.stackexchange.com/a/334417/302954](https://meta.stackexchange.com/a/334417/302954)
------
minimaxir
One question that wasn’t addressed in the response: if the CEO did not realize
that implementing the feature would be bad for users, then why did the company
announce the feature as an email footnote at 5PM Friday before a holiday
weekend, which is when bad news typically drops?
~~~
ammon
The Friday announcement was a result of us pushing to get the profile toggle
feature out that the email linked to, and shipping late. Not something I'm
proud of (either from an eng management perspective, or, more importantly,
from a not violating the trust of our users perspective). It was a rushed
schedule. In hindsight I see that the timing of the Friday announcement is
ALSO a problem.
~~~
camjohnson26
Unfortunately the most vocal people are the only ones you’re hearing. I got
the email and didn’t really care. My angel.co and LinkedIn are already public,
why not Triplebyte too, especially if it raises my market value.
Haters gonna hate and I wouldn’t take it too seriously.
~~~
GordonS
> My angel.co and LinkedIn are already public, why not Triplebyte too
Because you opted in to creating those profiles and the information they
contain, and made them public. You _opted in_.
~~~
camjohnson26
It was wrong not to make it opt in but not deserving of the level of hate
they’re getting for the decision. The big tech companies do things every day
that are much more damaging to your privacy and they don’t send you an email
telling you. LinkedIn’s spam marketing in the early days was downright
scandalous.
I’ve always found Triplebyte open and insightful and their response shows
they’re receptive to feedback, which is a rare thing these days. People should
be respecting that instead of crucifying one of the only companies that
actually listens to them. No company is perfect all the time.
~~~
GordonS
I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one then, as I firmly
believe they are deserving of the negativity.
The CEO's whole attitude towards privacy shows how they treat privacy, and no,
I'm not going to "respect" that.
------
trfhuhg
Nothing to see here. Ammon has tried a bold move to chase big money, used a
few common tricks (release on Friday night, opt-out and other dark patterns),
it didn't pan out and now he's doing damage control. When the dust settles,
he'll give this idea another try.
This is all from a corporate playbook, but it seems Ammon hasn't read the
entire book. There's a chapter there that tells how to systematically
manufacture situations where all the blame flows downwards while all the
rewards flow upwards, so when a bold move like this pans out, credit for it
would go to the top, and if it fails, blame goes to the bottom. Basically, he
should've created a clueless VP of business relations or something of that
sort, manufacture the situation where the only way that VP can get a fat bonus
is by implementing this shady move (the idea should be delivered via another
channel to have plausible deniability later) and watch the action from his
armchair. And when it's failed, blame that VP for too much eagerness and fire
him with a golden parachute.
~~~
gkoberger
I don't know Ammon, but I don't think he's chasing "big money".
The best founders I know, when they make mistakes like this, aren't doing it
for the money. They're doing it because they are trying to create the world
they want to see exist, and that blinds them a bit. In this case, I genuinely
believe Triplebyte just wanted to have a bigger impact on the hiring world,
and try to fix it for engineers. Did they fuck up badly? Oh yeah. But I don't
think it was for "money".
Triplebyte has 33 employees. They don't have VPs getting "fat bonuses". They
don't have "golden parachutes". Look at their about page
([https://triplebyte.com/about](https://triplebyte.com/about)), it's all
engineers and designers and CSMs. They're just a group of people doing their
best to try to fix something we all hate (technical interviewing/hiring).
~~~
stevens32
I interviewed with Ammon when the founders were running interviews themselves,
and after a not-great interview he still stuck around with a junior to just
talk tech for a good while. He left a really positive impression on me.
I see them as mission driven, this was a bad step but I trust that they're
still focused on trying to fix a broken hiring system.
------
ganstyles
I was one of the most vocal critics in the original thread, justifiably. I
lost a little sleep over how it could potentially affect me at my current job.
I feel bad for the company because I think the original decision meant the
would lose a lot of trust in the community for what is otherwise a great
service. Indeed, I had a wonderful experience interviewing with startups after
having passed the TB interview process. However I also feel bad because I feel
like it may indicate that the company is perhaps doing poorly financially.
However, I will say that I am very happy with this apology. It's direct, takes
responsibility, and gives clear action on what they're going to do. Classic
good apology. I am happy with it and it goes a long way to earning my trust
back. Thanks, Ammon.
------
alexpetralia
This is a very good apology.
Yes, it is possible that this is merely the perfunctory apology TripleByte's
users were undoubtedly due. It is possible it is entirely inauthentic, a mere
artifice for damage control from a reputationally maimed business.
But it is also possible that, like all people, the CEO seriously screwed up.
There were some bad premises, some bad motives, some bad confirmation bias at
play here.
That being said, we ought not to judge people by who they were, but who they
are capable of being. Is Ammon capable of rehabilitating?
I think the HN community should rightly accept this apology with great
skepticism. They should scrutinize TripleByte's every move. They should
wonder: has he rehabilitated? It will certainly take time.
~~~
woofie11
I'm not sure it matters. TripleByte is asking for super-sensitive information.
10 years down the line, Ammon won't be CEO anymore.
No matter how much of a jerk Ammon is, I'm willing to trust-and-verify, so
long as they get the and-verify part right.
No matter how great a guy Ammon is, I'm not willing to trust without the and-
verify part. He might get fired tomorrow, and Steve Ballmer or Carly Fiorina
might get brought in. It might go under, and get sold to Oath. There's a ton
of possibilities.
He sounds honest enough in his apology, and on a personal level, I'm all for
redemption and rehabilitation. It was also a one-time mistake. But I'm not
dealing with a person. I'm dealing with an organization.
Zero of the organizations who got my data in the nineties are the same
organizations today.
~~~
EGreg
The apology definitely sounds honest, but why are we putting all our data in
one place and then trusting someone to make the "right decisions" regarding
it?
I believe society should stop centralizing its data, votes, money, etc. in the
hands of a few. This decade we can work to change that.
_No matter how great a guy Ammon is, I 'm not willing to trust without the
and-verify part. He might get fired tomorrow, and Steve Ballmer or Carly
Fiorina might get brought in. It might go under, and get sold to Oath. There's
a ton of possibilities._
Exactly. But when I say this, people often respond to me "no, this is the
perfect example of a company that should be centralized" followed by
justifications and downvotes. Decentralization is still as uncomfortable as
the civil rights movement in the 50s, for many people.
~~~
woofie11
I like decentralized in some places, and centralized in others. I think
decentralized can and should replace Facebook, LinkedIn, blogs, and similar.
On the other hand, there are a lot of places where centralized, with proper
checks-and-balances, allows for a larger degree of scientific research and
transparency. Medical and education come to mind.
~~~
EGreg
How about this dichotomy:
1\. Infrastructure should be more decentralized and let nameless providers
_compete_
2\. Information should be available to everyone and let nameless authors
_collaborate_
1 produces a market of prices and competition, while 2 produces a
collaborative edifice of knowledge and well architected software.
~~~
woofie11
I'd actually like infrastructure to be at home. When I was in college, my
"infrastructure" consisted of a PC running Linux in my dorm room, a good bit
slower than a Raspberry Pi. It was fine for managing my documents, email, etc.
I'd like information to either be under my control, or managed as a public
good by a non-profit or government agency with appropriate checks-and-balances
and transparency.
~~~
EGreg
That’s great
A hosting company can be local Or you could host your files on your computer.
If you host a social network where others also contribute content then you ARE
the local hosting company and now you’re responsible for their data
That should all be a choice.
~~~
woofie11
Back in the early '00s, I designed a social network architecture which was
fully decentralized. The only people whose information I'd have would be my
friends', and vice-versa. I never built it, mind you, it was all a thought
experiment. But I still think that sort of thing ought to be how it works.
------
maddyboo
First off, I want to say that as a past Triplebyte user who was concerned
about my privacy after hearing the original news, I appreciate your decision
to cancel the feature, and I appreciate your apology.
In the end, I don't think this was an enormous mistake as there was no harm
done to your customers.
Still, you can't erase the information you've indirectly put into the world
about yourself and your company. Your near-actions have shed a bit of light on
your priorities, and customer privacy was apparently not at the forefront of
that list. The unfortunate truth is that this begs the question of whether
other decisions have or will be made which similarly disregard customer
privacy.
I'm very glad that you realized the err of your ways in this instance, and I
hope you continue to demonstrate your dedication to protecting your users'
privacy in the time to come.
------
headgasket
I just deleted my account. I was unaware that I even had one. I clicked on a
little puzzle that popped in my FB feed back when I was still using.(FB)
This quiz was super easy, and I got pulled into doing an interview, just for
fun, and a programming test in a language I had not used in 5 years. I did not
do too well, but I did not care, it was for fun!
Well I did not expect that bad score to be recorded and become public!
This economy built around private/public information quiproquo has to be
reigned in. I feel for the founder. But I still think there's something going
on we need to stop before we get to the Stasi.
~~~
wendyshu
Did you need to submit a government ID and all that?
~~~
headgasket
I googled delete triplebyte account, I had to reset a password I did not know
I had, then a few clicks, no dark patterns, really. It did take a few hours
but I just got an email saying the account delete process is complete. Not
sure how deleted it is, but hey I guess it's like everything that finds it's
way on the internets... It's as deleted as enforceable.
Let's keep hacking a free internet, for fun, emancipation and progress. (all
endeavours that can be for profit) Cheers
------
tersers
Yeah, no. I already deleted my account and I'm not going back. I realise the
type of candidate they cater towards would find jobs at companies I wouldn't
really want to work at anyway. I'm ashamed that younger me fell for this in
the first place.
~~~
dllthomas
I'm curious what type of company you're looking for that you'd expect to be
underrepresented.
~~~
tersers
Basing your worth around a quiz only further enables whiteboard and leetcode
style interviews. I've never seen why these interviews are useful or an
indicator of anything beyond someone's ability to sit at home for hours on end
doing the same things over and over. A company I would want to work for would
be doing something for sustainability/climate change or another social good
and would focus more on behaviour and critical thinking skills.
~~~
dllthomas
> sustainability/climate change or another social good
Ah, yeah, if you get too narrow in your targeting, it probably makes more
sense to focus on networking than any sort of recruiter.
That said, I saw quite a range when I went through Triplebyte a bit more than
a year ago.
I wound up at a company making 3D printers, which has (temporarily) semi-
pivoted to make lots and lots of (clinically validated) NP swabs for COVID
testing. So social good can show up in a lot of places :)
------
rsweeney21
I honestly believe that the public profile fiasco was caused by pressure from
his investors/board.
VC money makes you do stupid things. Your next round of funding is your number
one priority, customers are second. I've been there (raised $17M for my last
startup).
I run a company[1] that is a competitor to Triplebyte. Yes, hiring has slowed,
and we will miss all our sales targets this year by miles, but we will be just
fine because we are bootstrapped and profitable. So we'll only double our
revenue instead of triple. For a VC backed startup that could kill you. But
we'll just hire a bit slower and have a huge party at the end of the year.
When you are venture backed, you watch your bank account balance decrease
every week. Having a "burn rate" is awful. It messes with you.
With a bootstrapped company you watch your bank account balance _increase_
every week. It's a great feeling.
So many venture backed startups are being really hurt by the current
environment. I really hope that it makes more people reconsider raising money.
1: www.facetdev.com
------
phreack
One of the first things they could do is stop with the dark patterns. The
original thread had many people mentioning that deleting an account was a
ridiculous process, with a 30-day delay once you managed to start it.
~~~
ammon
Yeah... we made this better yesterday (removed the delay and the request for
ID). It was totally a dark pattern. We built the initial deletion process
right after GDPR passed. We were thinking about it mostly from a legal
perspective then, and had not reviewed it since.
~~~
GordonS
But this makes no sense. Why would you legally need someone's ID to delete
their account, but not to create it?
~~~
aaanotherhnfolk
GDPR devalued PII-stores, and companies tried really hard to only let the
value drop on the European portion of their data. Requiring ID is a way to
discourage and even deny deletion requests in other countries.
These constraints are walked back almost immediately in practice, once
companies learn that requiring a human touch for a deletion flow is not worth
the hassle.
I think "legal" here meant what's the bare minimum to respect the letter of
GDPR law, while not actually implementing a useful delete flow.
------
minimaxir
> I failed to see the significance of “default public” in my head.
Hmm? This just raises more questions about Triplebyte's product development
process than answers, especially since privacy is a _core product feature_.
~~~
trianx
I am still trying, and achieving, to give them the benefit of the doubt. They
understood and took it back.
But I am scratching my head how they could honestly miss the importance of
what they were planning to do.. I guess a combination of stress, pressure and
usual disregard of privacy by big players clouded their judgement.
~~~
runawaybottle
They didn’t miss anything, they just weren’t able to get away with it.
~~~
xeromal
They could get away with but just charging forward despite the backlash.
To me, that puts them at least in the middle
Malicious
Meh<\---
Respectful
~~~
runawaybottle
Amoral if I had to suggest a word, but business and amoral is basically
redundant.
------
dccoolgai
I bet _most_ of their users aren't reading HN regularly and probably just
skimmed past the email (I did). HN provided a nice little teapot for this
tempest to play out in, from a larger strategic picture. As mad as it probably
made them when that first user put the comment up the other day, that may have
just saved their business from complete annihilation. If I were Ammon, I would
find that person and send them some kind of nice gift.
~~~
dccoolgai
Perhaps more distressing to me, I got these emails but I _know_ I never
actually signed up to the site: I just took the little quiz. I _know_ I didn't
sign up because I recall being irritated that I had to sign up to see the
results of the quiz - and I was afraid of something happening _just like
this_. I was watching this because I was fairly certain - based on whatever
they published about me - that I was going to take some kind of legal action.
So in a way, this person saved them from _me_.
~~~
Mandatum
Currently located in the EU and contacted my lawyer. Told them as such. I
think they realised they fucked up from a legal standpoint more than anything
else.
------
nabilhat
This is an excellent example of effective apology!
1\. Accept responsibility
2\. Acknowledge the harm done
3\. Describe your understanding of how the mistake was made
4\. Describe your understanding of the wronged party's expectations and their
significance
5\. Close with an unreserved expression of sincere regret
6\. Listen
One person can't accept full responsibility, however. Effective leadership
requires accountability, and the only way Triplebyte is going to recover their
user's trust is to overhaul that accountability in the open. I suspect the
company's future will depend on whether the members of leadership and
ownership who certainly put pressure behind this response can adopt the
message and back it up with structural commitment and transparency.
------
Throwaway42123
What a crock of $#(& the backtrack is.
The answer is they are so incompetent they did not realize that publicly
exposing job seekers could threaten their employment... an company who's soul
vertical is to deal with employment... Is triple-byte that incompetent I
honestly doubt it.
No what happened was what all companies that get to greedy do, try to expand
to fast and do dirty tricks like email a marketing email on a Friday before a
holiday weekend in hope most people wont notice it to get a good "kick off"
for your profiles. Got to have big numbers for the board/VC's right? At the
cost of those who trusted you with their data and private job search.
No the only incompetence here was they did not account for HN and other
engineering communities spreading the word and need to backtrack to not have
it hurt their core business. Anyone would be a fool to trust Triplebyte again.
------
MattGaiser
Why not just make it opt-in?
Lots of people would have done it right away and others would do it as they
started to want new opportunities and/or got laid off.
Candidates who didn’t opt in probably wouldn’t be open to being contacted out
of the blue anyway in a public manner.
They burned a lot of goodwill for nothing.
~~~
ammon
Yeah... that's a much better idea. I can tell you what was going through my
head on Friday (I'm not at all trying to defend this now). Basically, it was
that for a credential to carry weight with recruiters, it needs scale. There's
a bootstrapping problem. But that's not an excuse for violating people's
privacy. Opt-in would have been a far better idea.
~~~
weaksauce
In the future it’s worth noting that it’s a terrible idea to take something
away from someone when you promised them something else. This is privacy in
this case. On others it’s offering something for free and then charging for
it.
Even if you wanted to make this an opt out feature the _only_ sensible way to
go about it is grandfathering in the old accounts into an opt in feature. Just
like many companies grandfather in free customers while they charge new ones.
This is the foundation of trust.
~~~
everybodyknows
> take something away
Quite true. T-Mobile is now forever to me the weasels that silently broke free
Google Visual Voicemail in order to force me into their own, judging by the
reviews quite crappy, paid app.
------
polote
People need to be less naive, how many companies in the world care more about
their users than their business ? none ?
Triplebyte reverting their decision is a business choice, they have probably
estimated that their brand will be less impacted if they excuse themselves
than if they continue. Everything is a business decision
Is it bad ? I don't think so, this is just business. We give our data to
companies and they do whatever they want with it, because the legal system is
not strong enough on that.
------
RcouF1uZ4gsC
The apology is very nice, and I am glad that they are not pushing ahead with
this feature. However, actions are what matter.
One thing that was brought up in the comments was that if you wanted to cancel
your TripleByte account, you had to email the company. This is a dark pattern.
If TripleByte really wants to show they changed they need to immediately
implement a “Delete my account” button that after requiring you to retype in
your password for confirmation, immediately deletes your account. Immediately.
No waiting period. No having to email anyone.
Implementing that feature in their next sprint would go a long ways toward
showing that they are genuinely contrite.
~~~
jacquesm
And certainly not having to provide 'government issued ID' to the company for
the privilege of having your account deleted, especially since none was
required for account creation.
------
conjecTech
I've had the good fortune of knowing the TripleByte team personally. I'm not
at all surprised to see this being handled in such a sincere and agreeable
way.
Ammon is a sincere and truth-seeking individual. He's willing to be convinced
that his opinion is wrong, a character trait we don't do enough to praise and
which I've found to be exceedingly rare these days. Situations like this
highlight exactly why I've trusted them with my data in the past and will
continue to recommend TripleByte to friends in the future.
------
grensley
Good on them to admit they were wrong and changing course. I wish there was
less "oh, but they only did it because of the outrage" and "oh, they'll just
sneak it back in later".
They messed up, they sought to rectify it. Good job.
~~~
colejohnson66
I’m sure it wasn’t helped by the CEO coming in and defending the decision. But
he’s taken the blame and apologized himself, and he’s here talking about what
went wrong and what he was thinking. It’s not gonna convince everyone, but to
me, that’s an apology.
------
xiphias2
I already changed all my data on my profile (including email), so I won’t be
getting the apology email.
It’s not just failure of ,,effects’’. I’m an EU citizen and it was a clear
intent of GDPR violation.
~~~
rebotfc
Wow, they had European users? They are fucked.
This is about a serious and willful GDPR contravention as you can get. I hope
they have good lawyers because they are gonna be hauled over the coals by
multiple countries' data commissioners.
Wow just wow.
~~~
erik_seaberg
If Triplebyte has no staff or assets in an EU jurisdiction, what could they
do?
~~~
xiphias2
Setting up a country based IP filter is trivial if they don't want to serve EU
and California.
~~~
erik_seaberg
They could filter traffic, but they might have some profiles for users who
later moved to the EU.
But I'm asking whether GDPR authorities have any recourse to take against a US
corporation that has not expanded into the EU.
~~~
xiphias2
[https://gdpr.eu/companies-outside-of-europe/](https://gdpr.eu/companies-
outside-of-europe/)
If Triplebyte doesn't even do IP filtering for signups, they are servicing EU
citizens. Actually I told them that I don't have US VISA, so the ,,local golf
course we site'' case doesn't apply.
------
ivanfon
If anyone is looking to delete their account: [https://triplebyte.com/privacy-
center](https://triplebyte.com/privacy-center)
------
ratherbefuddled
Well written apology but despite that I'd still be very concerned that a
company entrusted with so much sensitive personal data can get this so wildly
wrong and then also get the initial responses to the very predictable negative
reaction so wrong.
Did nobody in the room speak up? Is this a culture problem too?
To have a chance at winning back trust these guys need to make deleting
accounts instantly their next feature and make confidentiality the first
priority in everything they do - and that means doing it not just marketing
it.
They probably also need to hire someone to tell the CEO "No!" the next time if
nobody else is prepared to. It seems likely there will be a next time if this
one didn't set off alarm bells.
------
jacquesm
Nice apology, that's a lot better than in the original thread. Now there
remains an awful lot of dark patterns around the whole cancellation process,
as well as a bunch of others besides. If Triplebyte wants to clean this up for
real then they should starting now be 100% clean and tackle that as well (and
have a good review on the use of further dark patterns in other parts of the
site). Otherwise it feels as if the only reason they changed course on this
one thing is because it got too much attention, the real proof will be in how
they run the company as whole rather than just this 'feature'\+ retraction.
+insofar as involuntary sensitive data disclosure can ever be labelled a
feature.
------
sys_64738
Did this company decide to do this blindly or did they try canvasing a
response from a target set of users about what they planned to do? Surely if
they did canvas feedback for their plan then an overwhelming No would have
prevented this unmitigated disaster.
~~~
ammon
We did user research, but not about the opt-out release, just about the
features of the profile. This was part of the major screw-up.
~~~
vikramkr
Any chance of a post-mortem write up on how exactly things went wrong?
Including some discussion on how data's going to be protected moving forward?
Now that everyone knows this is a type of privacy violation that could occur,
it's going to stay back of mind (a "why should we trust you with this sort of
data now?" sort of deal). Potentially losing a job or having career plans
stunted because a website added a new feature is a lot of power to trust a
website with.
~~~
ammon
We're working on a post-mortem internally right now. The thing I want to do
externally is make a more clear/binding commitment to user privacy. The idea
is still a bit inchoate, but I want to do something that makes this not just
about trusting us.
~~~
lasky
“I want to do something that makes this not just about trusting us.”.
Is that because deep down inside you know the public would be foolish to trust
your company in its current form?
------
cbanek
Didn't get the apology email which may mean that they actually deleted my
account as asked with no further nonsense or asking for identification. Which
is honestly good on them. With this reversal, in the future, if I'm looking
for a job, I _may_ look at Triplebyte again, but I'm certainly not giving them
any info before then. Good luck, Triplebyte.
Edit: Nevermind, I just got the email. Still no response to my request to
delete my account.
~~~
wolfgang42
Ammon says they’ve gotten 2k deletion requests since the announcement
([https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23304097](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23304097)).
They probably never automated the feature (why would they? before this they
were probably getting a couple a week) so I imagine it may take a while for
them to work through the queue.
------
extriplebyte123
Just went through Triplebyte right as Ammon laid off my talent manager
(strangely right before most COVID layoffs) and a lot of their staff. I wrote
Ammon and he wrote back saying "layoffs are hard! blah blah blah." I
previously had written Ammon about a Triplebyte-facilitated on-site where the
company refused to offer me an accommodation due to an arm injury I had and
one of the interviewers told me they move so fast that they couldn't hire
somebody with such an injury (WTF? it's going to heal!). Ammon replied "hiring
is hard!! blah blah blah" and now that company is a favorite of theirs-- the
company even has their own channel on Triplebyte's slack community.
I then deleted my Triplebyte account, but they continue to spam me and try to
get me to engage on their blogging spinoffs. I would never again trust Ammon
with my personal information.
Triplebyte has built a pretty remarkable, data-driven evaluation system; the
Talent Managers were also really helpful to me. But Ammon is really _really_
over his head when it comes to managing people and balancing ethics with
financial headwinds. The product deserves a much better leader.
------
quickthrower2
What you need to do is to imagine you are designing a hammer, not a honey
trap.
With a hammer, you are creating a tool that you will sell to people that they
can use (or not) freely and they are in control of it. Design the handle so it
doesn't splinter and the head so it doesn't fall off. Make a great product.
The mind set is user-first. Or "Don't fuck the user"
With the honey trap you are trying to attract pests and trick them to coming
in thinking they'll get something special but really they just get stuck. The
users are the victims of the trap and you are the trap owner. You are more
interested in how to attract and leverage users than how to serve them. The
mind set is, how do we leverage the user to make our business more valuable,
or "How do we fuck the user?"
Step 1: Sniff out all dark patterns and eliminate them. For example 1 month
time limits on preference opt-outs e.g. "I am not interested in looking for a
job". WTF?. It should be no time limit on that, and no follow up "are you
sure" emails. Be a resource, not another 'shady recruiter'. My hammer doesn't
yell at me that I haven done any DIY jobs lately.
------
jorblumesea
Just makes you wonder what else is going on there from a product standpoint.
How many similar "good ideas" have they launched? Selling data? Employers
access to your profile?
Hiring _is_ their business and such a complete misunderstanding of the system
and subsequent tone deaf responses (up until today) really make you question
the entire thing. Or their grasp of hiring in general. Even with the best
intentions, does make you worry.
------
dgreensp
One way to avoid making mistakes like this would be to run your big ideas by a
handful of average users of your product. Take the information that will be in
the eventual announcement, show it to 10 users, and ask for their feedback.
Better yet, have a panel of trusted users that advise you.
The reality is, pretty much anyone could have told you this was a bad idea,
and that should suggest a process that involves asking someone, and listening
to the answer. It's a certainty that people within Triplebyte knew this was a
bad idea, and may have even said so. I'm sorry to say that most CEOs I've
worked under don't really believe anything that didn't come from a business
book or their own brain. Anything else is just one poor idiot's opinion. There
are many truths known by the team at large, discussed over lunch and around
the water cooler on a daily basis, that the CEO has heard before, but just
isn't interested in taking seriously.
------
lasky
“oops we forgot to NOT do the plainly shady wrong thing and make your private
data public, for our benefit - thank you SO much for reminding me. Shady shit
will never happen again. I promise. ;)”
------
alasdair_
THIS is how you write an apology letter.
Kudos to @ammon
I deleted my Triplebyte account over this issue. While I’m still somewhat
wary, I would now consider using Triplebyte again after this apology. Thanks
for posting it!
------
victoriadobbs
I’m a non-technical lurker of Hacker News - a community builder who comes here
for credible, thought-provoking news with intelligent comments. First time
commenter.
My biggest takeaway from the reaction to this letter is that people seemingly
would have rather had this CEO’s sincere and heartfelt words filtered through
a PR agency, who would have mangled the genuine sentiments to create sterile
and thoroughly-filtered corporate bullshit. People would rather be spoon fed
crap from a campaign team than listen to the earnest, well-intentioned, real
voice of the person who wrote them. What kind of a world are you creating when
you reward an honest, but imperfect, apology with derision and judgement?
I have no stakes in this game. I’ve never used TripleByte’s services to seek
employment. I don’t know how to code. But I believe in merit-based hiring, and
I would not be so eager to burn to the ground this company that I think is
performing a valuable service (to individuals, but also in shifting trends of
hiring practices as a whole) over an oversight that they owned up to after a
night’s sleep to reprocess.
The world I want to live in is one in which people are hired based on their
capabilities, and where people are willing to extend trust and forgiveness to
people when they are being honest and owning up to their oversights. The flaws
in this letter that commenters are tearing apart make it clear to me that this
CEO is a rare example of someone not lying through the teeth of a campaign
team. I value that much more than the facade of perfection.
------
kemonocode
All they needed to do was to make the feature opt-in. That's it. Encourage it
all you want, advertise all of its supposed benefits, but just make it opt-in.
Still, probably too little, too late for most people (myself included) who
just saw their trust permanently breached by a brash move and get told by a
CEO that you'll love it, honest! All you just need is to understand it! If you
don't like it then it's your fault because you don't understand! And this
doesn't even begin to address all the dark patterns they've caked in their UX.
------
ravenide
For what it's worth, if they'd just made the feature opt-in, I actually think
it's a great feature. I'd love a Triplebyte page that I can link to instead of
a resume (that's what I originally imagined when I read the email).
I'm a huge fan of Triplebyte, they got me two great jobs I never would've
gotten otherwise (I didn't go to college, my resume usually gets automatically
tossed). Their mission to fix credentialism succeeded with me. Hope this
setback doesn't deter them from building more great things.
------
zitterbewegung
Five years ago I tried out Triplebyte was a HN reader and I tried it out. I
got to the point where they would contact me but instead the rules and
criteria changed so that I wasn't eligible. I then forgot about the site.
A year or two after I think I tried Triplebyte again but then my account was
in some weird state. After complaining on an HN thread about Triplebyte my
account was restored. I didn't take the site really seriously at all.
While browsing reddit I used to see constant Triplebyte ads. I think I saw
them dry up at this point and that seems to conform to current economic
conditions.
Now fast forward to this year and I deleted my account after this public
profile idea was announced on a Friday. the whole point about having public
profiles is probably a way for Triplebyte to get seen by more people and get
some kind of network effect going on since they are in dire straights.
The response that Triplebyte has done is quite admirable in that they aren't
launching the feature. Launching on a Friday when people also think that you
are trying to bury the story or people won't notice is something to regard.
The thing I don't see anything really different between these new startups
attempting to disrupt existing staffing companies. My current job which I am
very happy about I got from a staffing agency after going through hundreds of
recruiters contacting me.
------
toodles1628
The true part is that the business is in crisis and they were trying to move
quickly to save it.
I don't believe that he did not know the impact of the default public option -
that is not credible. It certainly sounds better in an apology than "I knew it
was bad but decided to try it anyway." The privacy problem is obvious to
anyone thinking about it for 10 seconds, and the fact that he would try shows
a lack of respect for his users.
------
freshbagels
Can anyone explain why they'd be a LinkedIn data partner yet did this to
compete with LinkedIn?
Go to their site and paste this in your console:
window._linkedin_data_partner_id
~~~
wilde
It might be attribution for any LinkedIn ads they're running?
------
tcbasche
Imagine being on the dev team and hearing this. I'd probably quit. Good grief
...
Having said that, it's weird that no-one raised this as dodgy while working on
it.
~~~
gliese1337
What, just because a feature got cancelled?
Heck, that's every single day at my last job. North of 50% of the code I ever
worked on because a C-O insisted it was top priority got thrown in the trash.
C-O screwed up, feature won't o to production, hurry up and work on this other
thing instead? Oh, I guess it's Tuesday. Paychecks keep coming, I keep
workin'....
~~~
tcbasche
Seems like it was an entire platform rather than just a feature. I don't know
how you do it! I've worked somewhere like that too and I found it so
demoralising.
Reminds me of the study where people built things out of Lego, and watched on
as someone disassembled them and handed them back to be rebuilt, finding this
to be deeply unsatisfying. (well duh)
~~~
gliese1337
I separate my identity from my job, and my "work product" from my personal
projects. If I get paid to make something for somebody else, it belongs to the
person or organization who paid for it, and they can do what they want with it
--including burning it down and throwing it away. I already have their money;
what they do with their property is none of my business. As long as I know
that I did a good job on what was asked of me, that's all that matters--I can
be satisfied with my work.
Now, if they tried to tell me what to do with my own personal projects, we'd
have problems!
------
hitekker
IIRC, TripleBye had a vision to be the recruiting division of all tech giants.
Big-name companies would centralize their most important recurring, expensive,
risky process into a third party to save some money and time. Even when that
third party just so happened to be working for all of their direct
competitors.
At the time, I thought that vision was a mirage; a recruiting agency grasping
for VC dollars.
Now, it looks they're trying to find a new vision.
~~~
runawaybottle
Well those companies exist right? Accenture, Cognizant, EPAM, etc.
If anything, I’d say Triplebyte hopes to be what those consulting companies
are but to startups.
Now, if it turns out startups just have crappy budgets, then you have to lower
the barrier to entry into the platform to accommodate those budgets.
Similarly, if you indoctrinate enough of new grads/bootcampers to feel like
they need the Triplebyte cert (feeling left out that everyone is in Triplebyte
and you’re not? Welcome to the psychological game, behold the public profile
and badges), you can then also indoctrinate startups into thinking that’s the
standard that they need to be looking for too.
Anyway, devs with enough experience should be out of this game mostly, this
will affect the entry level tier of developers going forward. You might be
stuck in the damn Triplebyte loop.
------
sngz
great apology, but doesn't justify the incompetence and initial
justifications.
You're telling me that no one on your team has brought up the issue throughout
the whole process? That leaves three possibilities.
1\. someone brought it up but you ignored it and pushed through anyways 2\.
Nobody brought it up due to incompetence 3\. Both happened just 2 happened
late in the process.
Why would anyone trust their data with leadership that incompetent?
------
lianmunoz
This sounds like the best response they could have given under the
circumstances, and it's not like they can undo the announcement or the initial
response. I deleted my account, and I'd be hesitant to have anything to do
with them in the future, but I'm open to having my mind changed if the company
winds up placing a higher value on business ethics as a result of this whole
thing.
------
marcus_holmes
Too late. I deleted my account today.
Though of course it apparently takes 30 days to process an account deletion.
Why? Do you guys need to recruit a DBA?
~~~
kevsim
30 days is the maximum time allowed under GDPR. Quite typical to tell people
it might take up to 30 days (though it practice I've found it rarely does).
------
rplnt
I have no idea what this is, but I'm a huge fan. The reign of Linkedin as de-
facto standard has to end. It's unacceptable recruiters expect me to have a
profile on some proprietary website. Luckily not everyone is a moron and it's
not a blocker in getting a job, but I still hate people asking me about it.
------
swang
i tried out triplebyte when they were first coming out and i had a negative
experience with them. okay fine whatever. on to the next.
then all this hubbub came out. i was annoyed because i had ignored the email
like most people until they saw the hackernews post. so i went to their site,
spent way too long finding the opt-out flag and was about to close the window
when i saw that my "profile" that i never agreed to said i had zero years of
programming experience.
i'm actually very upset about this. a company who most people think is
"legitimate" is telling potential companies who are looking me up that i have
zero experience. they could have cost me a job in the future all because i
didn't agree to play their game and fill out their profile.
so no thanks. i've already been put down twice by them.. no real need for a
third time now is there?
------
thaumaturgy
I haven't received the email yet. Are they canceling the feature altogether,
or just making it opt-in by default?
I liked the idea of the feature quite a lot. I'd love to be able to publish
select Triplebyte info. It just needs to be something I can choose to do,
rather than chosen for me.
------
wbronitsky
Wow, this reads as incredibly disingenuous considering the glaring dark
patterns they were using to try and sell your private data and make more
money. I cannot reconcile this apology with the underhanded tactics the CEO
was using to promote this now cancelled feature.
------
lisading
I received the email today, then went to check my triplebyte profile. On
visibility settings, I saw the default public visibility is still ON. Probably
they are cancelling this feature anyway, but still showing showing ON in
public visibility seems like another messed up!
~~~
ammon
PR to pull the visibility toggle from prod is under review. Much of the eng
team is out for the long weekend, and we may not merge until tomorrow.
However, the public profiles themselves are not in production and we are
canceling the feature.
------
adnanh
I'm re-reading the threads, and I can't stop wondering if this whole mess
could have been avoided by simply posting a "Ask HN: As a TripleByte user,
would you mind having a default public profile..." question here on HN?
Anyway, I still believe that asking your target audience for an opinion is a
better way than trying to think instead of them. Steve Jobs might have gotten
away with that, but we are not Steve Jobs, or Apple for that matter... Not
trying to say that Steve didn't listen to the audience though, I bet he did,
but he had some strong opinions on how something should be.
~~~
ammon
I want to do a bunch more of this in the future.
~~~
adnanh
(thumbsup)
------
ponker
I don’t think this guy can recover trust from here. It’s not just the feature
and the email, it’s his indignant and dismissive tone in the comments here
afterwards:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23280137](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23280137)
This comment is the hallmark of a company that doesn’t feel like it needs to
answer to users or criticism. They can reverse a decision and send out a
tearjerker of a _mea culpa_ but people do not change their nature over a
weekend, and I am just not going to trust the man who wrote the comment I
linked above.
------
TheSpiceIsLife
This is why we need strong data protection legislation, and a regulator with
teeth.
No service should be allowed to unilaterally decide what happens to our data,
and gross changes to service agreements need to be vetted.
------
hysan
I'm for a competitor to LinkedIn, but I never got an answer to what the play
was after opening up profiles. I support TripleByte's mission, yet I don't
believe that you have critical mass in both job seekers nor in sway to
convince companies/recruiters to change their process.
What was/is TripleByte's plan to _" push the industry to look beyond
traditional credentials"_? [1]
[1]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23280341](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23280341)
~~~
decafninja
The Triplebyte process sounds difficult enough that, paraphrasing one user
experience I read: "someone who would pass the Triplebyte interview/process is
likely someone who probably wouldn't have needed to use Triplebyte in the
first place".
From what I understand, Triplebyte is supposed to help candidates that might
be "good", but not getting any traction from applying to jobs (either by
themselves or contacting a recruiter). And to skip the phone screen.
However, from personal experience, as a candidate with a less-than-awesome
profile and resume, I still get contacted by top tech company recruiters. And
frankly, most phone screens are not terribly difficult. So I am confused what
the value proposition of Triplebyte is.
~~~
hysan
For me, I come from a mixed career background which even one manager told me
was a red flag to them during the interview process. Triplebyte’s value prop,
to me, is in helping my resume get looked at at all. This is great because
I’ve generally done very well in phone screens when I can actually get them.
However, my comment stems from the experience that bias only gets removed from
screening phase. Once you’re onsite, you can still tell which interviewers
look down at your resume and suddenly you’re back to square one. Only this
time in a high pressure situation where the interviewer has full reign to try
and find flaws in you.
As for recruiters, I get contacted a lot but I have yet to meet a recruiter
who was willing to work with me to communicate to hiring managers why my
resume looks the way it does. All of them just want to drop off your resume
and put in no effort in helping you which is no different from cold applying.
------
voz_
This is how people grow. By fucking up, taking some heat, doing a little
introspection, and correcting their mistakes.
> Nor in the critic let the man be lost
> Good-nature and good sense must ever join;
> To err is human, to forgive, divine.
------
synaesthesisx
It seems to me that this is some sort of last-ditch effort. The fact that this
was even considered in the first place shows a massive misalignment between
Triplebyte and the type of users it is intended for. Engineering types are
less likely to use LinkedIn/Social Media in general, and having a total
disregard for privacy is something that generally does not fly well for us.
I’m glad the decision was reevaluated, however there needs to be more work
done to re-gain the trust of the community.
------
nirav
Personal thoughts for ammon, hoping @dang hides me, please hide me @dang.
Ammon,
You single handedly destroyed something you created but I can relate and feel
what you might be going through ATM.
It will suck and it will leave you with scars that'll be hard to come off and
stick for the foreseeable future.
Eventually, You'll come out of "it realizing this decision and reversal of an
easy growth idea with hard execution and be subjected to it on target
vocalists on HN"
You'll do better, never stop because of internet shit.
\- Be Good
(Random individual, doesn't matter)
------
heavyset_go
Almost got away with it, too, if it wasn't for those meddling kids and their
inability to accept that a small violation of their privacy would have a big
impact on my bottom line.
------
chegra
I am happy that he reverse his position. I think once they keep providing
value to their user in mind that they should be in good stead. Even if this
idea falls apart, and users see that they genuinely tried to provide value,
users would not mind taking a chance on them the next time.
Right now they are in a hole, but I think providing value will definitely dig
them out of that hole.
I think the first act of good faith can be removing dark patterns, allowing
users to unsubscribe easily from your service.
------
top-flight
I didn't get the apology email. I immediately ask they delete my account which
never got a response either when I got the public profile email.
I asked them to delete my account a couple years ago as well and they never
did then either.
I will never, ever trust this company or use their product. There are other
options out there just as good and not sketchy.
PS I like how the email went out on a Friday night too, even more sketch to
try and limit # of people who opt out.
~~~
jrib
I haven't received the apology e-mail either. The only action I took though
was to rummage around the profile preferences to find the setting to turn off
public profiles.
I wonder if they're sending the e-mails out in waves or if they're only
sending them to users who still have the feature enabled?
------
gcheong
I’m curious to know from anyone who has hired through triplebyte - has the
quality of candidates been consistently better in terms of success at the
company post-hire than it has through your previous recruiting efforts? Also,
for a candidate that comes to you through triplebyte do you consider them
vetted and are just interviewing for cultural fit at that point or do you
still put them through your own hiring process?
------
vyhd
Hopefully this proves to be an illustrative lesson: the best apologies are
_almost_ as good as not doing something that requires an apology at all.
------
raymondgh
Until we make crap like this illegal, companies will always be incentivized to
abuse our rights -- even at the cost of their leaders' credibility.
------
yalogin
I don’t know what value triplebyte provides in a sea of similar sites. I am
sure this was an attempt to do some vertical integration and build
differentiation from their competitors. It backfired. I can see why did the
public by default thing as that way they can force themselves as a LinkedIn
clone. It backfired and they retreated a little bit. They will be back
------
momokoko
I’d be very curious how many account deletion requests happened.
This is interesting in that it’s the new GDPR / CPPA era where users were
legally protected to request the complete deletion of their data. Something
that Triplebyte would have had no obligation to do in the past. Are we seeing
a change in that violating user privacy can have a meaningful negative impact
on a company?
Interesting developments
~~~
ammon
We've seen about 2k account deletions since Friday.
~~~
sah2ed
~2k account deletions in just 3 days is a lot. Would be nice to get a ballpark
on the total number of accounts?
------
heurist
I saw the initial note and didn't think about it much. Figured a public
profile was fine for me. For what it's worth, I found good work through
Triplebyte at a time when I really needed it and other sources were not
panning out. Even if I felt affected I would be inclined to give them a pass
on this as long as I could opt out easily.
------
stanfordkid
This is why we need data breach laws -- to which dictated Terms of service's
must abide. You can't write in a TOS "we have the right to kill you"... it
should be the same way with data -- any changes to the scope of how and to
whom data is accessible must be approved.
------
rammy1234
An action will not be upright unless the intention behind it is upright, for
the action depends on it." Seneca
------
ferzul
that's the kind of response from a ceo i want to see. normally, i would just
expect “We did something that was unpopular. please buy our other product.
also, the word apologize occurs somwhere here but it does not carry any of its
significance” but this ammon person actually explained what he did and why
------
brooklyn_ashey
Um, so you... failed to check a pretty glaring "edge case" is what you are
saying? You maybe failed to optimize the solution, is what you are saying? Ok.
Fortunately, this glitch— although certainly catastrophic— is a weakness in
analysis and execution that can be practiced over time.
------
fullstackchris
I understand the anger by some users, but why punish those (like myself) who
were quite interested in having a public Triplebyte profile?
I think they should go the middle road: make it opt-in. If you do nothing,
nothing changes, but if you want a public profile, you can get one!
------
bmy78
While this does seem like a heartfelt apology from the CEO, this incident is a
reminder of how much of our privacy we willingly hand over to companies and
how much power they wield over us. It is immensely disturbing.
I will not be using Triplebyte’s services.
------
jzer0cool
Regarding the previous post: "WTH TripleByte". Regarding this post, "Thank
you".
------
christiansakai
Tangentially related topic, but I never found success with Triplebyte, 2 times
I tried them. I found that their companies' selection is too small compared to
competitors.
Also I heard from a company that used them that they are expensive.
Not to mention cringy ads on Reddit.
------
skinkestek
I feel sorry for them and Ammon in particular and I think this can be turned
around but that mail and that feature seems like only the icing on the cake
from what I can see.
It seems to me there's a whole cultural problem going on.
------
gigatexal
In terms of corporate apologies this is amazing. Kudos to them and the CEO.
------
foota
Funny enough, the email announcing this went to my spam filter on Gmail.
------
thedumpap
I sent an email to them a couple of days ago, requesting my account to be
permanently deleted since I did not want my information to become public. Glad
to see it got reversed :)
------
milin
Url to delete your profile, if unfortunately you have one.
[https://triplebyte.com/privacy-center](https://triplebyte.com/privacy-center)
------
nirav
Why are people using this crap instead of portfolios and filtering crap jobs?
You don't want to be working for these types; you can own and operate as a
business.
------
thedumpap
I sent an email a couple of days ago for them to delete my account permanently
- because I did not want my info to become public. Glad to see it got changed
------
fullstackchris
Not fending for triplebyte at all here, but what do you all have in your
Triplebyte account that isn't on the web somewhere already anyway?
------
nunez
The public profile feature was not a great decision, but Ammon revoking it in
two days and sending an apology to everyone is extremely respectable.
------
Aardwolf
> As CEO, this is my fault. I made this decision. Effective immediately, we
> are canceling this feature.
I'd love to know the dynamics behind such decision
~~~
lasky
dynamics:
“oh shit, the public is now aware of how broken my moral compass is.
let’s continue to frame this internally as a “PR” problem rather than address
the difficult reality: a light being shined on our apathy toward our users and
our willingness to ruthlessly sell people out until we get minted”
------
ryan-allen
It's good they sorted this out, their product seems like a great idea, and I
was not aware of their service prior to this incident.
Good on ya Ammon!
------
jmount
This sword was always hanging above the heads of Triplebyte users. The mistake
was causing the users to look up.
------
covid1984
Hold up, a company that secretly recorded interviews without consent found
other ways to violate user privacy?
------
blockchainman
So is triple byte safe to use after this ? Or should I just use another
service?
------
wendyshu
Should have known there'd be outrage and never done it in the first place.
------
rajacombinator
Scummy move, scummy response. If you truly thought this feature was something
valuable for your users, you wouldn’t just cancel it entirely, and you
wouldn’t have dumped it on a Friday night. But it’s cool, most businesses are
scummy. Foolish for us to expect otherwise from you.
------
sepisoad
it's ok, they are admitting the mess they made and it is ok
------
callamdelaney
Not sure how you could get this so, so wrong.
------
rolph
please dont call this sort of thing a feature
------
antonvs
> Triplebyte can’t function
Looking forward to that.
------
29athrowaway
I don't think I will sign up for Triblebyte anytime soon.
Having a middle-man in the interview process can result in depressed wages.
~~~
colejohnson66
They’re not a middle man though. They just let you skip to the final
interview. Passing or failing that is up to you. Also, the only advocating
they do is saying: “John/Jane Doe knows this much: ...”
~~~
xenihn
Have you actually used Triplebyte? You're required to provide an expected
salary range as part of your listing. And yes, you can technically provide an
open-ended band (e.g. $0 - $999,999) -- can you guess what happens if you do
that, and why Triplebyte advises not doing this, even though you have the
option to do so?
~~~
colejohnson66
Yes I have used TripleByte. I haven’t gotten any job offers (probable due to
interviewing in February right before COVID-19 went big). So I’m aware of how
their system works.
And I stand behind my claim that they’re not a middle man. A middle man
advocates for you, and sometimes even handles all the back and forth. A
recruiter is a middle man. A hiring agency isn’t.
~~~
xenihn
>A middle man advocates for you
Triplebyte is doing this by making you pass their assessment prior to listing
you. Your presence on their platform is them selling you up.
Even if they do nothing but provide an introduction between you and a third
party, and have no involvement whatsoever after that (aside from taking some
sort of cut), they are still a middle man, because the connection was made
through them, and they vetted your skills and qualifications.
It's not like LinkedIn, where you can just auth with a phone number and then
put whatever you want on your profile. Triplebyte, as a company, is personally
vouching for you by allowing you to appear on their platform.
>sometimes even handles all the back and forth
So you're saying some middle men handle all the back and forth, but not all.
So is this a factor for whether they qualify as middle men or not? If so, why
not just say they all do? If not, why mention it?
Hired.com is very similar to Triplebyte, and I don't see how you can argue
that they are not a middle man.
------
aditya_1723
it seems like heartfelt apology
------
mot0rola
wtf, had a bad experience interviewing with them.
------
sabujp
are they in europe?
------
sabujp
are they in euro?
------
JamesGTP
its not good one
------
trianx
... (continuation of Triplebyte email)
Rather than safeguarding the fact that you are or were job searching, we
threatened exposure. Current employers might retaliate if they saw that you
were job searching. You did not expect that any personal information you’d
given us, in the context of a private, secure job search, would be used
publicly without your explicit consent. I sincerely apologize. It was my
failure.
So, what happened? How did I screw this up? I’ve been asking myself this
question a bunch over the past 48 hours. I can point to two factors (which by
no means excuse the decision). The first was that the profiles as spec’d were
an evolution of a feature we already had (Triplebyte Certificates--these are
not default public). I failed to see the significance of “default public” in
my head. The second factor was the speed we were trying to move at to respond
to the COVID recession. We’re a hiring company and hiring is in crisis. The
floor has fallen out on parts of our business, and other parts are under
unprecedented growth. We've been in a state of churn as we quickly try various
things to adapt. But I let myself get caught in this rush and did not look
critically enough at the features we were shipping. Inexcusably, I ignored our
users’ very real privacy concerns. This was a breach of trust not only in the
decision, but in my actual thought process. The circumstances don’t excuse
this. The privacy violation should have been obvious to me from the beginning,
and the fact that I did not see this coming was a major failure on my part.
Our mission at Triplebyte has always been to build a background-blind hiring
process. I graduated at the height of the financial crisis as most companies
were doing layoffs (similar to what many recent-grads are experiencing today).
My LinkedIn profile and resume had nothing on them other than the name of a
school few people had heard of. I applied to over 100 jobs the summer after I
graduated, and I remember just never hearing back. I know that a lot of people
are going through the same thing right now. I finally got my first job at a
company that had a coding challenge rather than a resume screen. They cared
about what I could do, not what was on my resume. This was a foundational
insight for me. It's still the case today, though, that companies rely
primarily on resume screens that don’t pick up what most candidates can
actually do--making the hiring problem much worse than it needs to be. This is
the problem we're trying to fix.
We believed that we could do so by building a better Linkedin profile that was
focused on your skills, rather than where you went to school, where you
worked, or who you knew. I still believe there's a need for something like
this. But to release it as a default public feature was not just a major
mistake, it was a betrayal. I'm ashamed and I'm sorry.
Triplebyte can’t function without the trust of the engineering community. Last
Friday I lost a big chunk of that trust. We’re now going to try to earn it
back. I’m not sure that’s fully possible, but we have to try. What I will do
now is slow down, take a step back, and learn the lessons I need to avoid
repeating this.
I understand that cancelling this feature does not undo the harm. It’s only
one necessary step. Please let me know any other concerns or questions that I
can answer (replies to this email go to me). I am sorry to all of you for
letting you down.
Sincerely,
-Ammon
~~~
dang
I'm going to inline this text into the top post so that everyone can read it.
(Edit: that's done, and I deleted "continued in comments" \- normally I'd ask
for permission first, but in this case it seemed better not to wait.)
You probably split the post up this way because the software told you the text
was too long. Tip for the future: you can get around that by clicking 'edit'
and adding the rest later. Don't tell anybody :)
~~~
wolfgang42
Would you mind also doing that thing where the comment is collapsed by
default? I spent way too long trying to figure out what was different about
this text compared to the email or the top post before I skipped down and saw
your explanaion.
~~~
dang
Ok, done.
~~~
wolfgang42
Thanks!
------
lisper
How did you manage to submit this? I tried to submit it myself about the same
time you did but got an error that the text could not be more than 2000
characters. How did you get past this limit?
~~~
dang
They originally put a prefix in the root text and the rest here:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23303045](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23303045).
I inlined it. You can get around the limit by using 'edit' after a post is up.
~~~
lisper
Heh, that'll teach me to try to follow the rules. All that karma, gone! Gone,
I tell you!!!!
;-)
------
loveJesus
Luke 17:4 and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you
seven times, saying, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.”
~~~
dang
Single-purpose accounts aren't allowed on HN, and the religious material is
off topic, so I'm afraid we've banned this account. Nothing against Jesus.
[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)
------
Mandatum
It takes more than one person to design, approve and implement this feature.
Ammon is trying to take the heat for a decision made by multiple people.
Right now, Triplebyte on a resume doesn't tell me anything very positive.
Why hasn't their VP of Growth or the Product Manager of Growth said anything
on the subject?
People should be held to account. Working for a startup, it's easy to figure
out who's to blame for these terrible ideas.
~~~
dang
Sorry, but it's not ok to look up people based on their employer and drag them
into a thread like that. That's a trope of the online callout/shaming culture,
and we don't want HN to go that route.
[https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...](https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20shaming%20culture&sort=byDate&type=comment)
~~~
Mandatum
Sorry Dang, I did check the guidelines on this. If I remove the names and only
kept the titles, would that be acceptable for HN?
~~~
dang
I'm really not sure. If the spirit is still to shame them or demand that they
account for themselves, maybe not. If it's to make a more general point about
organizations, maybe. If you had just included the titles and not the names or
the links, I wouldn't have replied, so I guess the line is thereabouts.
It's true that the guidelines don't spell everything out, partly because that
would be impossible, partly because beyond a certain length no one would read
them, and partly because if they were written in a more legalistic or
formalistic way, people would take them as sort of a bitmask, everything in
the inverse of which must be ok. That's definitely not how things work here.
We want a spirit of the law, not a letter of the law kind of place. I guess
I've been saying this for a long time:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7606756](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7606756).
~~~
Mandatum
That's fair. Can the names in my post be redacted? It still shows up in DDG. I
tried to edit it earlier after your response, but I left it too late.
~~~
dang
I've reopened your comment for editing so you can modify it.
Edit: just to close the loop on this, the way you modified your comment does
actually seem fine to me, so this was a nice test case of probing where the
line actually should be. Thanks!
------
EGreg
Oh boy. Where do I begin?
_Rather than safeguarding the fact that you are or were job searching, we
threatened exposure. Current employers might retaliate if they saw that you
were job searching. You did not expect that any personal information you’d
given us, in the context of a private, secure job search, would be used
publicly without your explicit consent. I sincerely apologize. It was my
failure._
How about we stop giving our data to third parties just so we can use their
software.
"The Cloud" is a corporate euphemism for "extreme centralization of data in
our servers".
And "Software as a Service" is even worse, because it basically says you are
RENTING the software, and trusting them to do "the right thing", including and
especially with your data.
This is insane. It's 2020. Why are we doing this? One reason: we don't have a
good open source alternative that can be hosted on many different places. Such
an alternative should actually be end-to-end encrypted, and the hosting should
be just redundant dumb boxes earning cryptocurrency for storing something.
_So, what happened? How did I screw this up? I’ve been asking myself this
question a bunch over the past 48 hours._
What happened was the same thing that happened 17 years ago when Mark Z
laughed about the "dumb f$cks* who "trusted him" with their passwords. To
quote the excellent V for Vendetta speech:
_How did this happen? Who 's to blame? Well certainly there are those more
responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be
told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. I
know why you did it. I know you were afraid. Who wouldn't be? War, terror,
disease. There were a myriad of problems which conspired to corrupt your
reason and rob you of your common sense. Fear got the best of you, and in your
panic you turned to the now high chancellor, Adam Sutler. He promised you
order, he promised you peace, and all he demanded in return was your silent,
obedient consent._
Look, I'm biased. I have put my money where my mouth is and am building this
reality ([https://qbix.com/platform](https://qbix.com/platform) and
[https://intercoin.org](https://intercoin.org)). I have historically been
downvoted for even mentioning that I am doing tangible things to solve this
and give away the software. But I persist in doing so because it's better to
actually _build the alternative_ than talk about it endlessly. The Impossible
Burger will do more for veganism than decades of talk ever could.
If you want to join this effort, email greg at the domain qbix.com . But
whether you choose to support Mastodon, Matrix, IPFS, Dat, MaidSAFE or
whatever, realize that we need to move towards a future where infrastructure
is decoupled from power over your data. Your data should be encrypted and only
enough shared for indexing. It should be provable with verified claims and
zero-knowledge proofs, but only with your consent.
~~~
gbear605
TripleByte is literally the perfect example of a company that should be
centralized. They work because they have a reputation that companies can
trust. Trying to make it decentralized takes away any value that TripleByte
provides.
~~~
zebnyc
Given that interviewing is a skill unto itself which needs to be practiced,
what happens to candidates who need to take a few interviews before they start
hitting their stride. For me, I can see that using Triplebyte once the
candidate is "warmed up" makes sense.
If TripleByte was the only game in town then a new candidate would fail their
test and then it is game over. No more job search.
~~~
wolfgang42
I agree with your concerns about a monopoly, but just wanted to respond to
your point about needing to “warm up”: Triplebyte gives you a free practice
interview that doesn’t count (unless you ace it), and also lets you retry in a
few months if you fail the actual interview.
------
atemerev
Now, this is a good apology, compared to some other pieces of the genre I have
seen in my life. Looks believable.
------
weareconvo
Now apologize for spamming my inbox without an unsubscribe link.
------
Invictus0
Not a good look from all the pro-privacy folks here to redouble your criticism
after you got what you wanted. Assuming good faith is part of the HN
guidelines, so let's give Ammon benefit of the doubt here as well.
~~~
trianx
I agree - it's as good an apology as it gets. Let's honour this and react more
positively than had Triplebyte send a non-apology apology.
------
sockr8s
Why are you under such tremendous pressure? It is this a desperate move of a
company finally going out of business or a result of an extreme pressure from
the vc side?
Who has accessed the data already? Not only directly but indirectly as well?
Have you received any compensation or settled any transactions by exposing the
data?
~~~
colejohnson66
They didn’t expose any data. The feature wasn’t live yet.
~~~
sockr8s
"The new profiles will be launching publicly in 1 week" It means a preview was
already available in a limited way.
~~~
colejohnson66
No it doesn’t. It means they finished a feature and were making it live in a
week. Nowhere in that statement implies that there’s a limited beta.
~~~
sockr8s
Nowhere it implies there isn't.
~~~
colejohnson66
You’re moving the goal posts and asking me to prove a negative. Absent any
evidence that there was a limited beta, we can’t assume there was one.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
How we get high availability with Elasticsearch and Ruby on Rails - konklone
https://18f.gsa.gov/2016/04/08/how-we-get-high-availability-with-elasticsearch-and-ruby-on-rails/
======
shockzzz
I have no idea why the phrase "high availability" is in this post.
~~~
mburns
>We call these extensions "high availability" because this approach means that
re-indexing a production system can happen much faster, reducing downtime for
our users.
Agree with their use of the term or not, they give you their reasoning at the
end of the article.
~~~
shockzzz
That's crazy misleading. This is just a post saying, "hey, this is a way to
sync data faster." Awesome! Much kudos.
But stale data isn't "downtime." This is tech marketing at like, MongoDB
level.
~~~
ma2rten
Except it's not marketing from the vendor in question. This is a page by the
US government.
------
serguzest
"27 reports per second" what?
I use bulk api with .net Nest client.
I can easily put 1000 documents per second (which also include 3-10 nested
documents) with 4core i5 machine. Serialization is the cheapest operation in
my case. I would blame ruby in your workflow.
~~~
xentronium
Seriously depends on the structure of the documents and your analyzer setup. I
agree that it should be in hundreds recs per sec though.
------
acehyzer
Elasticsearch is awesome. It may be a good idea to use the bulk API that is
built into elasticsearch, use some joins in your SQL query, and index more
than just one record at a time. In the implementation I have, I batched my
query to 50,000 records at a time that then index into elasticsearch. For the
2.7 million records I indexed this week, it took a total of 54 queries to the
database (50,000 records returned at a time). Just one more idea to streamline
your indexing without slamming your DB quite so hard.
~~~
brndn
I started using elasticsearch recently and I was wondering, does the indexing
happen in real time during the index request? How do you know how long the
indexing process takes?
~~~
chrisatumd
There's an index.refresh_interval setting. It defaults to 1s, so by default
your data will be available for querying within one second after being
indexed.
~~~
nemo44x
In general, yes. But keep in mind that the Elasticsearch JVM GC could fire up
right after the document is indexed and possibly run for a few seconds if
there is a lot of memory pressure. When the GC is done Elasticsearch will
continue to process queries but it may be the indexed data hasn't been
refreshed yet. So, a query run "1 second" after the index operation may not in
fact return the document. However, this would be a very rare case.
------
sqlcook
I've indexed ~ 1 million docs a second, but with proper routing, can probably
even 5x that. Total cluster size was 50 terabytes, at the end.
~~~
true_religion
How many machines did you have on the cluster?
~~~
sqlcook
100 data nodes
basically if you want fast ingress, keep shards small, once they get past
~5-10gb , ingress significantly slows down. Also this was on ES 1.5 , have not
tested latest 2.0+ builds
~~~
sandGorgon
I assume you are also replicating your nodes...how does replication impact
ingress? What happens when nodes exceed 10 GB? Do you split them?
~~~
sqlcook
if you want the fastest ingress, disable replica until your ingress is done,
its faster to create replica at the end of ETL for that given index. Also, you
want to disable auto allocation as well, this will disable shard movement
during ingress, re-enable it afterwards.
on a 100 node cluster i had roughly 500GB on each node. this was not a single
index, multiple indexes, with roughly 8 shards per index per node. Shard count
is pretty important to get correct.
I did not manually control document routing (it was hard based on the type of
data i was ingressing), so it was set to auto and during the load i observed
hotspots in the cluster (you have to look at BULK thread/queue length), some
nodes were getting burst of docs while others were idle, roughly 40-50% of the
nodes in the cluster were under utilized, and maybe 5-10% had hot spots from
time to time.
Also, depending what you use to push data in, (I used ES hadoop plugin) , you
have to account for shard segment merges, which literally pause ingress for a
brief moment and merge segments in a given shard. You have to set retry to -1
(infinite) and retry delay to something like a second or two, otherwise you
will end up with dropped documents.
~~~
sandGorgon
this is brilliant ! if you had your ES and hadoop config somewhere it would be
awesome
------
IndianAstronaut
Is this sort of parallelism also doable with Solr as well?
~~~
brightball
I don't see why it wouldn't be. The main differentiator between Solr and
Elastic Search is that ES handles constant incoming data more consistently, so
it's a much better fit for realtime scenarios.
Just batch loading the data one time shouldn't create much of a problem for
Solr either.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
I Fooled the World into Thinking I Was a Successful EDM DJ–For an Art Project - kposehn
http://thump.vice.com/en_us/article/i-fooled-the-world-into-thinking-i-was-a-successful-edm-djfor-an-art-project?utm_source=thumpfbus
======
MOARDONGZPLZ
I'm reminded of a Key and Peele "How to Rob a Bank" skit:
Now I know this plan is foolproof. Check this out. First of all, you and me
start working at the bank. Doesn't matter the position, okay, just so long as
we get in there, all right? Then we just go there every day, do the work, gain
their trust until we get them in the palm of our hand. All right. So how we
get the money? That's the beauty of it, bro. They deposit the money into our
bank accounts, week after week, month after month. They're not even gonna know
they're being robbed. And then 20 or 30 years later, we walk out the front
door like nothing even happened.
------
rblatz
I read about this woman previously (may have been the same article) but I
think this comment on reddit really summed up my feelings on it.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ActLikeYouBelong/comments/4cb4yw/fooled_the_world_into_thinking_she_was_an_edm/d1h7aml/
_The fools! For they could not begin to grasp the sheer magnitude of my plan!
I toiled, sweat soaking my brow and streaming down my back as I mastered their
craft. I studied long, perfecting their techniques, learning their tongue,
adopting their ways until I could pass among them - pass as one of them! Those
cruel hours! Those long, arduous days and weeks! Those agonizing months as I
trained, developing my art unto new heights until I was finally prepared to
reveal the Machiavellian intrigue behind my scheme!... ...For as I played to
the multitudinous crowd, bending them to my every whim with each note, raising
them to ecstatic delight with each crescendo - entertaining them! - little did
any of them know that while they had been having fun I had been loathing this
the entire time!!! Muahahahahaaa!_
~~~
existencebox
As someone who DJ'd on a whim for a few years to pay some bills in college, I
think that takes away from the thrust of it.
In other fields we expect the luminaries of a craft to have achieved that
level with some significant effort/insight/accomplishments, and I don't know
about you, but 6 months is NOT enough time to truly master a craft. (I say as
someone who has spent multiple decades spent in multiple instruments, physical
crafts and otherwise, and still find myself a joke next to real experts, and
would not attempt to pass myself off as such)
I would say the "luck factor" plays more a role in djing than it does in many
other fields (most performance fields are similar in this way), which would be
fine if it were acknowleged, but there does seem to be some deifying of the
DJs, and many who I interacted with seemed to, as we put it in tech, drink the
koolaid a bit too much. Like the author I got tons of praise for my sets when
I would occasionally have thrown together whatever bullshit I had been
listening to the day of in an hour before I went onstage, and I felt like a
bit of a sham for that; I would certainly not try to pull similar shit in my
professional career and I think that's quite telling.
I take the article as a request to "See through the smoke and mirrors" and as
a shitty DJ I'd definitely echo that sentiment. There are some amazing
producers out there who get little to no credit, because they haven't gotten
critical mass necessary to start passing themselves off as DJ-famous despite
putting a huge amount of effort into making some damn good music. I'd be the
first to nod to a "Well life isn't fair" statement, but thus the article, and
my emphasizing that it's for us to see each performer for what it is and not
lessen the accomplishments of either group for the other; but to me that
requires being able to distinguish what each performer is and is not.
~~~
kristofferR
I find it really weird that the unique openness, positivity and lack of
pretentiousness among EDM fans/dancers is being perceived as something
negative. I instead find it hugely refreshing - EDM is all about going with
the blissful flow and feeling/sharing in positive emotions with the people
around you. As long as the music contributes to a great vibe it's fantastic
music as far as I'm concerned, I don't care one bit about if you spent an hour
or a year creating the song.
I spend way too much of my regular life being analytical (heh..) and thinking
instead of enjoying, and I really don't understand why it's so popular among
music fans to always look for the flaws in everything instead of finding the
beauty. I understand that as a someone who has seen through the smoke and
mirrors it may be tempting to clear the smoke.
But I came because of the smoke machine, and when I look back I'll remember
the warm feeling of empathy, fun and joy seemingly flowing through the hazy
air - not about how much time or effort the DJ spent on the tunes. That
doesn't make me stupid or ignorant, I'd argue it makes me the opposite.
[https://newrepublic.com/article/118854/edm-and-hippies-
how-r...](https://newrepublic.com/article/118854/edm-and-hippies-how-ravers-
became-new-flower-children)
~~~
Uhhrrr
Musicians and more sophisticated listeners see simple music as boring and
vapid, not blissful. Liking it doesn't make you stupid, but it may well mean
you're ignorant. I would bet the likes of Tiesto will be much less interesting
to you in a few years' time.
~~~
ThrustVectoring
Uhh, it varies, really. There's music that's simple because the musicians
don't know how to be make interesting music, and then there's music that's
simple because that's the musically correct thing to do and the musicians have
the confidence to be like "no, we're not playing all the notes and doing all
the things right now".
There's layers of sophistication. Sometimes becoming a better musician means
learning to put more into a song, and sometimes it means less.
A good example of this: Ahmad Jamal, Surrey With The Fringe On Top,
particularly the section 50 seconds in -
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tM7PDwzY9LA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tM7PDwzY9LA)
More mainstream is the drumming in "Seven Nation Army" by the White Stripes.
~~~
Uhhrrr
That section goes for 10 seconds. I guess if Tiesto only ever played for 10
seconds that would be cool.
~~~
Uhhrrr
One other thing: Jahmal is playing against the time signature in that section,
which would be anathema to someone who just wants to make sounds to move
bodies by.
------
etjossem
_" Everything I did was real. I managed every transition without a sync button
and I lived each performance. But still I constantly felt I was cheating my
audience and the scene by presenting a pure fiction."_
This was the part that struck me; the imposter syndrome, even after achieving
commercial success. If you become a sought-after EDM DJ (or software
developer) it's not because you were able to fool the world. It's because
you've taught yourself how to give your customer what they need. The people
consuming what you make already know you're a professional - and you're the
last one to realize it.
Congrats to the author and her mentors for figuring out what it takes to build
a popular act.
------
egypturnash
This feels a hell of a lot like an updated version of the KLF's "How To Have A
Number One The Easy Way", except written by someone who decides to get off the
ride before it gets to the end. [http://freshonthenet.co.uk/the-manual-by-the-
klf/](http://freshonthenet.co.uk/the-manual-by-the-klf/)
I sure did roll my eyes and make wanking gestures during the opening
paragraphs. No, people _aren 't_ at a club to sit back and sip weak tea slowly
whilst listening to the intricacies of a beautifully difficult piece of music.
They are here to _dance_. And as the DJ, your job is to _give them beats to
dance to_ and _keep the party going_. Any number of these people may be
listening to and loving that difficult, cerebral music at home, but _you can
't dance to that shit_ and they are in this place to _move their asses_.
~~~
nfbush
There is dance music that is original and tasteful you know? The article
instead shows quite well how the mainstream edm scene is mindlessly homologous
and that for this scene in particular the hype of big dj's is meaningless. In
other dance music scenes DJ's are revered for combining their large
collections of music, knowledge of track selection, and understanding a crowd
to create an individual experience each time. Sure if you have brainwashed
yourself to enjoy the tired formulaic mainstream edm drivel you'd love a
cliché mainstream edm DJ, however for people who love dance music it can be
insufferable.
[edit] spelling
~~~
blub
Insufferable indeed. Goodness, how will those lovers of dance music survive
the onslaught of formulaic EDM drivel one has to wonder.
I was expecting lovers of dance music to... love dance music. Not dictate
what's right and what's wrong while passively agressively suggesting that
mainstream listeners are ignorant.
I've seen this attitude many times from smaller groups which see themselves
above the masses. They need a justification for the fact that their tastes are
not popular and that becomes often "the masses are stupid, only we understand
the true nature of _whatever_ ".
~~~
nfbush
I don't give a fuck about what people listen to, nor do i claim certain music
is right or wrong. If you could actually read i was talking about DJing, as a
lover of the internet do you love all the Child porn flowing through it? fuck
off you cuck
------
exolymph
So... basically become a DJ? This person didn't fool the world, since they
were actually doing everything that goes into being a DJ. They just happened
to have an insufferable attitude about it behind the scenes.
~~~
kemayo
They seem to have an opinion that a DJ shouldn't just be someone who picks a
set of popular/danceable songs and puts on a bit of a performance while
playing them to a crowd of dancing people. Which... okay, I guess?
They also started with insider connections, which is probably the biggest
thing that let them overcome needing "luck" to take off.
------
s889j
An attractive woman, who was familiar with the club scene, after learning the
basics of EDM was able to get well paying gigs as a DJ.
The lesson here is that a mildly competent attractive woman can easily get
jobs in entertainment/marketing.
------
forgottenpass
Welcome to everything marketed for mass appeal, ever. Mainstream audiences
don't exhibit refined tastes, and the product is more facade than substance.
In music this has been an open secret of for decades.
To me, it sounds like the author just has a chip on their shoulder about EDM
in specific. That goes insufficiently unexplored, but the reason is probably
best described as "salty."
Yet, the article is dressed it up VICE-magazine's carefully managed branding
and is designed to look like an authentic entity exposing something
meaningful. All flash, no substance. Irony, thy name is VICE.
------
radarsat1
> Their attitude betrays the avant-garde origins of the music they play.
What does this mean? (Honest question.)
> we were suddenly being booked and questioned our "realness."
well...
> Tobias has used his know-how to make an online platform called ...
Oh I see the article is an ad. Just like her whole career.
You know you live in postmodern times when someone can write an "honest"
article about how their career is phony in order to sell a product. Just, wow.
------
radley
She may have seen it as an "OMG art project" but Tobias surly saw it as "How
to Make a Popstar 101".
She also happened to ride the wave of "we need more female DJs" (Jan 2014):
[http://thump.vice.com/en_au/article/the-reason-there-
arent-m...](http://thump.vice.com/en_au/article/the-reason-there-arent-more-
female-djs)
The hook for promoters was that it was a twofer - two female DJs on the flyer
for the price of one.
What she doesn't get is that everyone doing EDM thinks it's a joke too. Nobody
takes it seriously (except getting best time slots).
I guess what I'm stuck on is, what was the "art" in the project? Being a DJ or
fooling everyone? Seems like it could be a case of imposter syndrome, but I'll
bet it's simply clickbait.
------
fred_is_fred
This piece takes itself way too seriously. EDM is supposed to be fun. It's
supposed to be done with friends. It's not artesnal "my band has less
commercial success than yours" bullshit.
~~~
smitherfield
_> It's not artesnal "my band has less commercial success than yours"
bullshit._
Depends on the subgenre.
------
pmoriarty
I have a question for DJs:
Why do so many DJs play the same songs over and over and over again from night
to night?
I've been to so many clubs that very rarely play new music, and very often
stick to the same playlist night after night.
It's so incredibly boring to hear the same songs over and over and over again,
and saps my will to go out at all, because I know I'm rarely going to hear
anything new. There's only so many times I can get up the energy to dance to
even a great song that I've heard ten thousand times in the last 20 years.
I know this varies from DJ to DJ and scene to scene, and some do play new
music, but I've just seen this happen way too often, and wonder how people can
even stomach working as a DJ if they're not interested enough to find and play
new music, and restrict themselves to playing the same stuff over and over
again.
It really bores the hell out of a lot of club goers too, and I'm convinced its
contributed to the death of some scenes.
Also, why do some clubs have the same fucking DJs for literally decades? Why
can't they let some fresh blood in?
~~~
SwellJoe
I started an audiovisual services company a few years ago, and so I've worked
as a DJ off-and-on for a few years (mostly for fun, as it doesn't pay as well
as software). The reality is that DJs play what people want to hear. The
average club-goer goes out once or twice a week; while the DJ may be playing
the same shit over and over, the people in the club at that moment probably
haven't heard that track that week, and if it's a "banger" they probably will
be happy to hear it.
Clubs are not venues for new music, on the whole. Taking in truly new music is
challenging in a way that most people out to get drunk/high and dance their
ass off just don't want.
I have a list of tracks that I _know_ will start a dance floor, every DJ worth
anything does. They aren't effective because they're new or innovative, but
because they connect with a large percentage of people. The party starters are
hits from when the audience was in college or high school; you just have to
look at your crowd, and pick the right year, play some songs from their era,
and the crowd will be happy.
I think the best DJs will expand the horizons of their crowd a little bit, by
playing something interesting and new for the people in the crowd. But, as
much as I might like to do a set of all my favorites, I know I can't play
Kraftwerk and Dead Prez and The Big Boys in the same set...I can probably get
away with _one_ such obscure track (and, I'm often surprised to find somebody
in the crowd recognizes it, or asks who it is because they really like it and
hadn't heard it before). You've gotta empty the dance floor every now and then
to keep the bar ringing, anyway, so you can do it with the weird tracks.
So...if you want to be paid to DJ in almost any environment, you have to play
the music the audience wants to hear. Hell, you can effectively be a jukebox
playing nothing but requests (which are _always_ hits) and people will be
happy; but, if you ignore all requests, the crowd won't be happy (though clubs
are less prone to requests than private parties, in my experience). If you
achieve a huge level of success, maybe then you can play a majority of your
own tracks...but, even the biggest names who are also "producers" are mostly
just playing the hits and waving their hands around while visuals and
pyrotechnics go off around them.
~~~
pmoriarty
_" I have a list of tracks that I know will start a dance floor, every DJ
worth anything does. They aren't effective because they're new or innovative,
but because they connect with a large percentage of people."_
The thing is, after a while, you can get a sense of what kinds of music is
danceable and catchy, and know that there's a high chance you'll fill the
dance floor with it, even (or especially) if it's new.
About popular oldies: each of these was new once, and some DJ had to take a
risk to play it for the first time somewhere before it was popular. I'll be
showing my age here, but I've seen on multiple occasions cases where a new
danceable, catchy song will come out, and would have been perfect for a club,
but it doesn't actually get played in clubs for a decade or two. Then I'll
finally hear it played in a club, and by then it's already stale, and has lost
a lot of the energy and excitement it would have had were it played when it
was fresh.
Also, even if a DJ lacked confidence in their own ability to pick danceable
new music, and felt that they had to stick to the tried and true oldies: there
are so many great oldies out there! Why should they stick to the same exact 10
oldies every night when there are hundreds if not thousands of them to pick
from?
Then, in my experience, most DJs don't stick to just the popular club hits.
They play obscure music all the time. Even music that is virtualy undanceable,
and clears the dance floor as soon as they play it. So they're taking risks,
and sometimes even paying for it by the audience clearly not liking what they
played. But they play those very same obscure songs night after night. It's
obvious that no one's requesting these songs, and the DJs don't give a shit
that people don't like them, but they play them anyway. So catering to what
the audience likes is not an excuse in that case.. and that happens all the
time. All the time.
So my questions are:
1 - If DJs are brave enough to play obscure songs, why do they have to be the
same obscure songs all the time?
2 - If they feel the need to play old hits a lot, why play the same old hits
over and over again?
~~~
SwellJoe
Both are valid points. And, I make fun of DJs who play the same set over and
over, night after night. I don't understand why any DJ would subject
themselves to that kind of tedium; but let's be honest: the majority of DJs
are not musicians, and their interest in music is not deep or wide. And, being
repetitive is not a negative in the mainstream DJ market.
Regardless of my preference for variety, the people hiring DJs generally don't
care about that metric. My favorite DJs in the market where I've worked were
playing really obscure stuff for their whole set...but weren't making a lot of
money doing it. But, it was clear that they _loved_ the genres and artists
they were playing.
------
xutopia
I don't think people realize the parallels between this and startup life.
Lots of people who have succeeded in the startup world attribute it to one
thing or another they did but a lot of it is just damn pure luck.
This woman faked her way through... if she had wanted she could have continued
down that road and be a bona fide DJ and none would be wiser.
~~~
exolymph
> This woman faked her way through...
She didn't, though. The only thing she faked was her attitude about what she
was doing.
~~~
charlesdm
How is that faking? That's just putting up with something to get the result
you want.
------
citizen23
The author appears confused as to what being a DJ actually involves. This
confusion is understandable considering she seems to believe that the
electronic music scene begins and ends with the Big Room EDM of Netsky/Flume.
Whilst this may be the commercial face of EDM, for many fans it is no more
representative of the EDM genre than chart Hip-Hop is of the Hip-Hop genre.
The very idea that refined DJs would want "the platform occupied by cake-
throwing pyrotechnic-firing entertainers" betrays her claim of understanding
the scene.
Anyone can play some popular tracks and mix into the EDM scene for a while but
that's not going to get you on the Resident Advisor Top 100. Serious DJ's (I'm
talking the likes of Ricardo Villalobos or Nicolas Jaar) have a religious like
commitment to the art and performing sets is only a fraction of what they do.
------
mslev
I don't see this as an "art project" as much as a fun experiment. This just
shows that good producers and promoters, and having an "in" can often get you
on the same level as legitimately talented musicians.
~~~
happy-go-lucky
That's what happens almost everywhere, but the bitter truth is they usually
don't last long.
------
stcredzero
Isn't the path to becoming a successful EDM DJ, essentially to fool the world
into thinking that you are one?
------
J-dawg
Interestingly something like this was done 15 years ago for a UK channel 4
documentary.
[https://www.theguardian.com/theobserver/2001/apr/22/features...](https://www.theguardian.com/theobserver/2001/apr/22/features.review127)
------
mmagin
Darn, was hoping it was Paris Hilton.
------
bsder
Welcome to music. Tits and ass has _ALWAYS_ trumped talent.
------
Theodores
Back in the day I used to put on a few events and have a say as to who played
what records and when. We did invite DJs that played known crowd pleasers even
if I (and my housemate) were snobbish about what they played. There were two
reasons for this, we wished for an inclusive crowd and sometimes a few crowd
favourites help with getting people on the dancefloor. We also wished to
attract the following of the crowd-pleasing DJ. As the night progressed we
could steer the mood into the musical journey we wanted with decent slots for
the DJs we really did want to hear. There were times when we had to rescue the
decks (due to emptying dance floor) but generally we were hands-off and
certainly were not going to dent the egos of our DJs, we would be just playing
a 'special request for a birthday girl' or something.
My problem with people that played crowd pleasers was that there was an aspect
of them being 'poseurs'. Rather than having a confident idea of what a set
should be and putting together something amazing for that night and that
crowd, it was almost as if the poseur-DJs were second-guessing things and
overly concerned with BPM values, all very mechanical, if skilled. They also
were not challenging the audience or creating new music for them. Nonetheless
at least they tried, at least they were there in front of a crowd for their
mistakes to be heard by all, at least they invested in vinyl (as it was then)
and they were able to keep our inclusive crowd happy (if not challenged).
Our scene was 50-50 as far as gender but when it came to organisational nounce
and DJing it was mostly male. I do not think that we created an impenetrable
male-only clique, plenty of ladies around, just not hitting the decks or
having money at stake.
The poseurs did earn acceptance over time in some cases, we gave them the
space to get some confidence or whatever it was that was lacking and they
earned their place on the scene.
How would I have felt if this 'art project' had infiltrated itself into our
events? Probably pretty rotten but times really have changed. Back in the day
you could not have 30000 tunez on an mp3 player and have the computer mix
things for you. You had to take a choice 150 or so 12" records, all of which
had to be bought when they came out as limited pressings with white labels and
what not. So to have enough in the bag to cover all eventualities during an
hour or so of a DJ slot one would have to have £1000 of vinyl with you, fresh
vinyl with sensible back catalog. This was a convenient barrier to entry and
probably would have been too high a bar for 'art projects' like this.
You can take the piss out of any medium and any art form and call it an 'art
project'. You could even go along to a Trump rally and chant the usual chants
and call it an 'art project'. You could wear a football shirt and go to
football matches for the first time, posing as a fan and calling it an 'art
project'. You could fool people int thinking your graffiti was a 'banksy' and
call it an 'art project'.
Beyond the blog post, where are the fruits of this 'art project'? What is
being truly created? I don't see any creation of note, just cynicism and
assumptions, fakery and nothing really proven.
------
Justin_K
This piece could be interchanged with any music genre. Rap / Hip Hop, Rock,
Country... it would all read the same. There's plenty of examples across the
board.
~~~
davidw
Seems like it's something of a continuum, though.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otM22QcIHYw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otM22QcIHYw)
\- a group of untrained people could not put that together and play it live in
6 months. No way, no how.
Maybe with a bit of training and a lot of auto-tune, someone with a decent
voice could be a 'pop star', but even that... probably more than 6 months.
There's a ton of music that's got years and years of practice behind it.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
LendUp: Playing with people's lives - Bootvis
http://ftalphaville.ft.com/2016/09/28/2176153/lendup-playing-with-peoples-lives/
======
kchoudhu
I am sure we will be seeing numerous comments in this thread braying for the
CEO of this criminally negligent financial firm to be thrown in jail.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
The shockwave-less supersonic body - floater
http://linux.osdn.org.ua/pub/mirrors/ftp.flightgear.org/docs/www.4p8.com/eric.brasseur/swlbi.html
======
RiderOfGiraffes
> The plates around the body are thin and do
> virtualy not generate shock waves by their own.
Well, that's just nonsense. Thin or otherwise, anything travelling
supersonically will generate shock-waves.
> This shape too does virtually not generate shock
> waves in the outside world.
Yet more nonsense.
This, in short, is drivel.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Cloud-based monitoring for scripts, jobs, apps and batches - bdavid_tex
http://www.pushmon.com/cms/
======
bdavid_tex
Hi. We're releasing a free, cloud-based monitoring solution for scripts,
scheduled jobs and batches. PushMon is unique since existing hosted monitoring
solutions check public facing services. It instead waits for URL "pings" and
if the URL is not called on schedule, an alert will be sent. Say you have a
database backup script that runs every 5 AM in the morning. If the backup
script runs successfully, let it call the PushMon URL. If the URL doesn't get
called because cron doesn't run properly or if the script fails, an alert will
be sent by 6 AM. We're wondering what you guys think. Feedback much
appreciated. Thanks!
~~~
bdavid_tex
You can use the invite code "HackerNews_tp".
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Memristor cell scaled down to 10nm - mrb
http://semiaccurate.com/2011/12/08/imec-scales-rram-to-10nm/
======
Symmetry
We already had MRAM which was non-volatile and was as fast as DRAM, but had
horrible density. Now it looks like we have a workable device that can be both
main memory and storage.
However, modern operating systems are all written with the assumption that
your storage and memory are different things. Will these innovations see us
going to the sort of system Multics tried to pioneer, with memory and storage
unified in one filesytem?
------
Leynos
What is the common estimate as to how long it will be before we start seeing
SSDs using these?
~~~
treo
HP has announced something for 2013: [http://www.eetimes.com/electronics-
news/4229171/HP-Hynix-to-...](http://www.eetimes.com/electronics-
news/4229171/HP-Hynix-to-launch-memristor-memory-2013)
~~~
Symmetry
_HP is still accumulating endurance cycle data at 10^12 cycles and the
retention times are measured in years, he said._ For all the people worried
about the Semiaccurate article talking about only a billion read/write cycles,
this shows that endurance is a very tuneable parameter, just like it is with
flash memory. With flash you have some cells that are only good for 5K writes,
and you have some that are good for 1M writes. With RRAM it looks like the
numbers will be much higher.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
The Trojan Horse wasn't a horse - alanfranzoni
http://www.academia.edu/26945391/F._Tiboni_2016_The_Dourateos_Hippos_from_allegory_to_Archaeology._A_Phoenician_Ship_to_break_the_Wall_in_Archeologia_Maritima_Mediterranea_13.2016_pp._91-104
======
alanfranzoni
TL;DR
The ancient greek word "Hippos" \- which, undoubtedly, means "horse" \- was
used to call a type of phoenician ship as well, and the whole story works fine
with a 'ship' transaltion. The 'horse' translation was a mistake by some early
translator that wasn't corrected and sparked the myth.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: What are the best resources to learn shell scripting? - b2hack
What are the best resources, courses, tutorial to learn shell script.
======
moonboots
A good intro is a talk given by Ryan Tomayko called the Shell Hater's
Handbook[1]. His POSIX Shell and Utilities is also a great reference[2]. For a
more comprehensive guide, I recommend the dash man pages[3]. Dash is shell,
the good parts.
[1] <http://shellhaters.heroku.com/> [2] <http://shellhaters.heroku.com/posix>
[3] <http://linux.die.net/man/1/dash>
~~~
b2hack
This is very good. In any case I want a tutorial if possible. Something with
exercises.
------
olefoo
Get the book Unix Power Tools
<http://shop.oreilly.com/product/9780596003302.do>
Keep it on your desk; read and apply a tool whenever you have a minute.
------
sk2code
According to me this is the best place to start
<http://tldp.org/LDP/abs/html/>
~~~
carloc
Absolutely. ABS is the single most awesomenest place to learn shell scripting
(with bash, but why bother with something else?).
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Twitter's GIF hack - kwntm
http://blog.embed.ly/post/89265229166/what-twitter-isnt-telling-you-about-gifs
======
ars
This is not true:
"A GIF is literally a sequence of independent images squeezed into the same
file. An mp4 video can take advantage of all kinds of fancy compression
techniques like keyframes and forward-predictive frames."
That's not why the mp4 is smaller. A GIF is not [just] independent images, you
can have each frame reuse pixels from previous frames.
The mp4 is smaller because lossy jpeg compression is used on each frame, while
the gif stores each frames losslessly.
This has implications from the predictive frames as well - the jpeg is lossy,
so two almost similar parts of the images can be considered "the same", while
the gif is not, so they must be identical in order to compress that way, and
the realities of video noise makes that unlikely.
~~~
anon4
Not quite true yourself :).
GIFs store deltas, true, but they are still raster images.
H.264 on the other hand contains specific techniques for compressing
sequential frames, including things like recording only pixel motion for some
frames. You can see it in those "corrupt movies" gifs (which on twitter would
be mp4s... talk about irony) where you take a clip and remove some keyframes
from it - then transformations are applied on the wrong blocks and you get
really weird things like someone's head splitting open and stuff flowing into
each other.
Additionally keyframes in movies are usually compressed with even more loss
than standard jpegs. In most cases only the Y channel is recorded at full
resolution and the two colour channels - U and V - are recorded at half.
There is also motion-jpeg which really is literally a sequence of jpeg images.
~~~
mikeash
Just a nitpick, JPEG always encodes the color channels at half resolution.
It's amazing how difficult it is to notice this, though.
~~~
brigade
No, there are 4:4:4 and 4:2:2 modes in JPEG.
H.264 also defines such modes, but no consumer hardware decoders support them
so they aren't commonly used.
~~~
mikeash
My mistake, I must have been going off what's common versus what's allowed.
Thanks for pointing it out.
~~~
dunham
Apple's jpeg animation hack used 4:4:4 so the blocks wouldn't interfere with
each other. It's a neat hack, worth reading about if you haven't seen it yet:
[https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1GWTMLjqQsQS45FWwqNG...](https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1GWTMLjqQsQS45FWwqNG9ztQTdGF48hQYpjQHR_d1WsI)
~~~
mikeash
Holy moly. What a hack.
------
Rudism
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the whole reason gifs started
proliferating on the net because people wanted to share short video loops, but
didn't want to embed flash or video which may not load or play correctly in a
user's browser? And now we are championing the conversion of those gifs back
into video? Seems like a strange round-about way of doing things.
I forsee a future where all video clips on the net have been converted back
and forth between gif and video so often that they all slowly merge into a
single amorphous blob of greyish-brown pixels. Actually, now that I think
about it, that would almost certainly be an improvement over the current
situation.
~~~
blt
I don't think gifs' recent surge in popularity has anything to do with
technical issues like browser compatibility. They became popular because of
artistic/aesthetic value and web culture. These features all differentiate
gifs from _2010-mainstream_ forms of embedded video like Youtube:
- starts playing automatically
- loops seamlessly
- never has sound
- no logos or buttons like "share" and "embed"
- no scrubber bar on the bottom
- repeated instances of the same gif play back in lockstep
- no frame around it
- pixel-perfect control
All these features make it possible to create art that wouldn't work with
embedded video. (Defining art broadly; captioned movie clips are included.) In
the past few years, some creative people started making really good gifs that
took advantage of these features. Then the trend spread through web culture.
The next generation made gifs because "making gifs is what clever artistic
people do on the internet".
It's always been easy to create a looped animation format that combines the
feature list above with a better compression scheme. Now that gifs are so
popular, someone recognized the need and made one.
IMO, the 256-color dithering was more of a necessary evil for most gif
creators, although some took advantage of it. It looks nostalgic on 90s
Gourard-shaded untextured computer graphics. But for movie clips, etc, I think
many will be glad to get rid of it. I bet we'll see a sect of gif creators who
think mp4s are not authentic while most people won't care.
Your last comment reminds me of Alvin Lucier's "I Am Sitting In A Room"
(wiki/youtube). Someone repeats that idea with every lossy medium we invent.
I've seen jpeg and vhs examples but I can't find the links right now.
~~~
freyr
I think your list of features is spot on, but I don't think their mainstream
popularity had much to do with artistic expression. I'd include one other big
feature:
- They are dead simple to save (or link to) and drop into your own page/blog/comment.
and claim that GIFs are just really easy to share and view. They've offered a
better experience both for post and viewing a short soundless clip than could
be provided by an embedded Youtube player.
~~~
mbesto
How about the fact that there is _zero_ advertising. IMO this is the number
one piece of friction for videos (mainly YT) and the users don't want them for
especially quick moments (a la Vine).
~~~
michaelmior
There's nothing really stopping people hosting GIFs from putting in
advertising. Although it's true that I haven't seen examples of this
happening.
------
kudu
This article makes it sound like Twitter invented a whole new optimization,
when they really just recycled a concept already in use by gfycat
([http://www.gfycat.com/](http://www.gfycat.com/)) and MediaCrush
([https://mediacru.sh/](https://mediacru.sh/)).
~~~
Sir_Cmpwn
The latter being open source (I made it):
[https://github.com/MediaCrush/MediaCrush](https://github.com/MediaCrush/MediaCrush)
------
Permit
I'm curious if anyone is noticed the flickering Loading icon when the .mp4
version loops? It only shows up for 50 ms, but seems kind of annoying. Or
maybe it's just my machine?
Here's a cap: [http://imgur.com/2R84ImD](http://imgur.com/2R84ImD)
~~~
Drakim
Yeah, I see it too. Very annoying.
~~~
mhurron
Also annoying to have to allow javascript to see what is supposed to be an
image.
------
stonogo
This is on a fully-patched RHEL6 workstation:
[http://i.imgur.com/NleqJTD.png](http://i.imgur.com/NleqJTD.png)
Another example of "use bleeding-edge tech or go fuck yourself" from the
modern web.
~~~
fixermark
Support for mp4 isn't bleeding-edge tech on other operating systems /
distributions, unfortunately. It's a couple of years old in terms of being
supported by Chrome; it's supported in Firefox as of last August.
At this point, desktop configurations that can't play mp4s are at risk of
being considered "broken."
~~~
callahad
Is it really that difficult to supply a free format like WebM in addition to
patent-encumbered H.264? If you only supply H.264, you're cutting out Firefox
on OS X, Chromium, and Opera.
~~~
garblegarble
It does mean you need to transcode and store twice as many files, which can be
a serious pain if you've got a number of different bitrate H.264 assets. It
can be a big pain if your software assumes there'll only be a single media
file. Not insurmountable but painful for small operations (and for large
operations, where there may be a back-catalogue to worry about)
I'm with you in spirit, but in practice I think we can all understand why
people often just go for H.264
~~~
kibibu
This is a new feature launched by one of the biggest web brands there is, so
presumably theres no back catalogue.
------
Sir_Cmpwn
I made a site that drove this innovation, MediaCrush. It's open source.
[https://github.com/MediaCrush/MediaCrush](https://github.com/MediaCrush/MediaCrush)
if you want to try to do this yourself, our code is a good reference.
[https://mediacru.sh](https://mediacru.sh)
~~~
sillysaurus3
Why did Gfycat win? I've always wondered.
~~~
mkishi
I'd bet on UI and marketing.
The player is very unobtrusive and minimalist, and simple things like
pronounceable random names probably appeal to the user.
Also, features that are well-known to heavy reddit users (such as easily
resizeable videos) only helped with the word-of-mouth.
------
billmalarky
"Videos allow Twitter to leverage the browser. This means play, pause, and
seek, but also cool things like slow-motion. Think your GIF is funny now? Wait
til you see it in slow motion."
Gifs have built in slow motion, it's called waiting for the 10mb file to
download frame by frame upon initial play-through.
------
protopete
Unfortunately the MP4 looks worse than the GIF, due to chroma compression in
the YUV 420 colorspace. While each pixels luminance value is kept, the color
information for a 4-pixel square is stored as a single CrCb pair, which is
really obvious when you look at how the orange hat has artifacts against the
blue background. Increasing the bitrate won't solve this either, since it's a
limitation of the colorspace.
~~~
ferongr
Or alternatively browsers could use non-terrible chroma upsampling algorithms.
[http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/79805](http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/79805)
~~~
Kayou
Thank you! I was gonna post the exact same thing. Nice website, though.
I encoded the gif in 420 (subsampling), 422 and 444, having a nice quality
with 444 with VLC, I embed the three different videos in a web page and when
playing in my browser, they are all as bad as the twitter video! I thought
that Firefox was using a standard library to play MP4?
~~~
ferongr
Firefox uses the Windows-bundled decoder on Windows Vista or later. Chroma
upsampling happens after decoding so it's the renderer's responsibility
(Firefox, Chrome, VLC, madVR etc).
Depending on the webpage you uploaded them, the videos could be re-encoded (or
VLC's options could be no-ops and the artifacts hidden when played back in VLC
due to better chroma upsampling) hence the problem.
~~~
Kayou
Okay, thanks for the explanation on the chroma upsampling! I use Linux but it
should work all the same.
When I said that I embedded the videos in a web page, I wrote a small page
from scratch to display them in my browser, locally, without any server. So no
re-encoding. I think that VLC just has a better chroma upsampling.
------
rudog
We've been doing that at my company on our mobile applications for a few years
now. There is no reason to be shoving 5-10mb GIFs down a users throat on a
mobile device. Not only does are MP4s smaller (file size), frames per second
will be constant on all browsers, unlike GIF (although most browsers are
supporting up to 50fps these days). Although outdated, you can read more about
that here. [http://nullsleep.tumblr.com/post/16524517190/animated-gif-
mi...](http://nullsleep.tumblr.com/post/16524517190/animated-gif-minimum-
frame-delay-browser-compatibility)
I wrote a simple js lib for detecting the duration of a GIF for each browser.
It was a fun weekend project.
[https://github.com/rfrench/gify](https://github.com/rfrench/gify)
If webp gains more adoption, it's another alternative now that it supports
animation.
------
bluedino
Haven't things like gfyCat been doing HTML5 video from GIF's for a while?
~~~
discreditable
In a way they're doing it better. Twitter only seems to support MP4 whereas
gfycat et al will deliver WEBM or MP4 based on the user's browser.
~~~
skrowl
Agreed. MP4 doesn't work on Firefox (out of the box).
~~~
pyre
You should probably qualify that somehow, because MP4 works for me on Firefox
(on OSX 10.9).
~~~
preek
It does not work for me, too. FF30, OSX 10.9.3.
[https://www.evernote.com/shard/s19/sh/e81e070a-4e2e-4367-9eb...](https://www.evernote.com/shard/s19/sh/e81e070a-4e2e-4367-9eb1-83a7f6fe151f/42755f0246227bd75eb5e1099f857348/deep/0/About-
This-Mac-and-Embedly-Blog,-What-Twitter-Isn't-Telling-You-About-GIFs---
Vimperator.png)
~~~
pyre
OSX 10.9.2 + FF30 here:
[http://i.imgur.com/uTlQkg7.jpg](http://i.imgur.com/uTlQkg7.jpg)
~~~
DCKing
Right click the video. It's probably Flash. Plays using Flash in Firefox on my
machine.
OS X is the last platform where Firefox doesn't support H.264. They're working
on it, but it doesn't seem to be landing soon.
------
TazeTSchnitzel
Much like what [http://gfycat.com/](http://gfycat.com/) do, then?
Interesting also that 4chan recently added looping, muted WebM videos for
similar reasons.
------
gdulli
Is there a flash blocker solution that removes all traces of the page element
rather than leave an ugly placeholder? It's going to be annoying to see this
on Twitter from now on.
------
eph_unit
So, what is an easy way to convert gifs to mp4? How did they do this. I run a
small gif-sharing site and should probably do this.
~~~
GHFigs
I had a convoluted method using gifsicle to extract the frames and then encode
as a stream of frames, but then sometime in the past year or so ffmpeg
improved native gif support. This is what I use (the options are both for
compatibility):
ffmpeg -i foo.gif -pix_fmt yuv420p -vf crop=floor (in_w/2)*2:floor(in_h/2)*2 foo.mp4
Works for WebM just by changing the extension, too.
------
brickmort
I think now would be a good time to introduce HTML5 videos to the feed, or
gfycats. At least on certain browsers.
------
jstalin
It's annoying to an oldtimer, like me, that _animated_ gifs have now simply
become _gifs_.
------
ahassan
This is why 4chan supports WebM videos now in addition to the traditional
gifs.
------
supercoder
Can I skip the GIF and have Twitter just play an MP4 I upload ?
------
pyrocat
The twitter "GIF" is a black box. gg
------
cbr
Another option (for supporting browsers) is to use animated webp:
[https://developers.google.com/speed/webp/faq#why_should_i_us...](https://developers.google.com/speed/webp/faq#why_should_i_use_animated_webp)
------
shmerl
GIFs indeed are bad for video (quality, size, no control, no sound, etc.) but
in order for that to be really true, the site must allow embedding videos
using the video tag (i.e. videos which people upload in proper video formats).
Does Twitter allow it?
------
lawl
So. Who was first. 4chan or twitter?
How long has twitter been doing this? Just out of curiousity.
(Yes I know 4chan doesn't convert but there was some talk that 4chan might be
a major player in pushing webm forward. Is it even webm or x264? On mobile.
Can't check right now.)
~~~
underwater
gfycat.com and others have been doing this for a while.
------
megablast
This is what I see on the page:
[http://i.imgur.com/wFjEY8t.jpg](http://i.imgur.com/wFjEY8t.jpg)
I can understand why twitter is saving money on hosting these new "gifs"
------
cosmeen
This is what Gfycat [http://gfycat.com/](http://gfycat.com/) is been doing
since last year but as a service.
------
RRRA
The saddest part is that you can't add a zip to that gif and use twitter as a
sharing platform.
cat x.zip >> y.gif and upload would have been nice ;)
~~~
shawnz
Combined with twitter's link shortening, you could use this instead:
[https://code.google.com/p/furl/](https://code.google.com/p/furl/)
------
user24
Great, and we've lost the ability to save them to your computer, and to share
them outside of twitter's ecosystem.
------
malkia
I would think it's to avoid any traces of steganography... naaah I'm just
kidding....
------
johnnymonster
Does anyone know what they are doing for the conversion? Any services out
there do this?
------
goblin89
For me the main lesson here is that I should be more attentive and
investigate. I remember noticing some un _gif_ fy vibe about animated clips on
Twitter, but quickly dismissing the observation. Perhaps if my timeline
contained a lot of GIFs I'd dig deeper, but it doesn't help feeling shallow.
------
webXL
This is an automated fix. Animated GIFs are the hack!
------
zobzu
its like many other sites do it and its much better that way
------
tomphoolery
attn: reddit, please do this
------
neotoy
Hopefully this will contribute to the extinction of gifs.
------
raverbashing
I had noticed that. Because of flashblock.
Yeah, a 20+ years file format doesn't do compression between frames, who would
have thought...
~~~
ars
Except that it does do that, the article is wrong.
As I wrote in a different comment the actual reason is lossy jpeg compression,
not intra frame compression.
~~~
raverbashing
Aah you're right.
Yeah, for pictures jpeg is much better (and smaller) than gif.
Not to mention in several gifs they really reduce the quality to have a
smaller file size
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Why I Was Fired by Google - dpflan
https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-i-was-fired-by-google-1502481290
======
Upvoter33
I personally find the whole "Goolag" thing ridiculous. I've had relatives
(great grandparents/uncles/aunts) in the USSR who were removed from their
homes in the middle of the night by the government. One was even shot/killed.
Getting fired from your high-paying job to go off and get another high-paying
job, after you spent numerous hours writing some controversial BS about
women/hiring instead of, you know, doing your actual job, is not anywhere
close to the type of persecution people have faced in the past - so let's
please not pretend it is.
~~~
ardit33
Alright, let me chime in:
For people that were less political danger, they usually were fired for
"Political Incorrectness" and "Agitation and Propaganda", sent to re-education
classes, and only given shitty job opportunities from now then. It was a
convenient way to keep the less dangerous masses at bay.
If "being conservative" becomes a "fireable" offense in most large tech
valleys, then we are in a path to similar stances.
Now, here where I disagree with the memo in general (it didn't seem
constructive), I disagree with the way google handled the whole situation
overall.
Anyway, this whole episode (if you are not a feminist you are the enemy stance
and the black list that managers at google have) starts smelling more of a
McCarthyism
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism)
For people that just want to do their job and don't want to get involved in
these discussions you almost are forced to do something, otherwise you are an
evil/enemy/suppressor/whatever else. That bothers me, as I lived under
communism and have lived the results of blind ideology.
~~~
frgtpsswrdlame
Why are we drawing the connection that he was fired for being a conservative?
Tons and tons of people in the valley are their own special breed of techno-
libertarian and they seem to be totally secure in their jobs. He was fired for
being political at work. Don't be political at work. No one wants someone
walking around their workplace talking about the evils of abortion. No one
wants your coworker to ask if you'll sign an ACLU petition on trans rights
while you're microwaving your pasta. No one wants to sit down at their email
and see something like _FW: My Thoughts on Women and the Workplace_ with
Damore's pdf attached.
~~~
kbenson
> He was fired for being political at work. Don't be political at work.
Well, more specifically, I think he was fired for being political in a way
that caught outside attention and caused bad PR. Plenty of people are
political at work, whether they be work politics or otherwise. This is a "You
made the company have to weigh in on something that is _way_ over your pay
grade, and that's not something we're going to take a chance happening again
with you." Executives and boards don't like when they have to stop what
they're doing and put out a PR fire started by a low rank employee, whether
that employee expected that outcome or not. That the firing of the employee
causing problems at the executive level coincides with a way to combat the PR
just makes the decision all that much easier.
~~~
ivoras
Whoa, there - doesn't the fact that a low ranking employee, to use the phrase,
can cause a global scale shitstorm, mean that just maybe, there are actually
problems which were swept under the rug for too long?
~~~
kbenson
Not necessarily. All that person has to do is tap into a controversial topic
that divides people and involves the company.
E.g. "Big pharma researcher says our system is killing people." If it wasn't
already done and old news, if it happened to get traction we'd have the same
situation. And let's not kid ourselves, he's probably not the first there to
state this or even the first to share his views. He is the first that had it
turn into big news because it went viral, but content isn't the only factor in
something going viral.
------
basseq
His take still seems a little tone deaf and defensive (e.g., repeated use of
"echo chamber"). But he hits the nail on the head of why Google fired him:
... they really couldn't do otherwise.
No matter what you think about the memo, Google had absolutely no option but
to fire Mr. Damore once this blew up into a firestorm (internally and
externally).
~~~
toomuchtodo
They could've had a spine and supported intelligent discourse. Seems like a
leadership problem.
"At Google, just as we strive for a diverse workforce, we also encourage the
free flow of ideas and along with that, support the vigorous discussion around
those ideas. We don't comment on specific HR issues." (EDIT: Minor grammar
edits for my faux PR statement)
And that would've been the end of it, had they had the fortitude to ignore the
witch hunt.
~~~
saidajigumi
Except, as has been pretty well documented elsewhere, it was _not_ intelligent
discourse. Whatever productive content may have been present, it was
overwhelmed by the senseless repetition of long-debunked stereotypical
nonsense.
Endlessly, emphatically parroting what is ultimately discriminatory nonsense
is an aggressive action against others, not "just an opinion". E.g. [1], and
numerous other examples. My favorite, which I'm having trouble digging up the
citation for, is a recent-ish study that compared test performance of various
minority/gender groups based on social anxiety measures (e.g. "girls aren't
good at math")... and found that it was literally possible to turn this
difference on and off like a switch based on triggering vs disarming these
anxieties as part of the test setup. This literally flies the in face of the
schoolyard "sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt
me" mantra so ingrained in US culture. It turns out, we have increasingly good
scientific evidence that humans just don't work that way.
Let's be clear about that: being a toxic jerk to {insert out-group here}
actively harms those people, and can directly harm their performance
orthogonally to their actual potential capabilities. "Yeah, I'm meritocratic
in footraces, but only when I can stick thorns in my competitors' shoes."
[1] [https://psychcentral.com/news/2010/03/19/negative-effects-
of...](https://psychcentral.com/news/2010/03/19/negative-effects-of-
sexism/12252.html)
~~~
submersiveblue
> it was overwhelmed by the senseless repetition of long-debunked
> stereotypical nonsense.
This is why what Damore did is important and why having the discussion is
important. People like you either mistakenly believe this or are being
deliberately manipulative and misleading by claiming the science is settled.
In fact, the science is not settled, and if anything it is leaning in Damore's
favor. That you and people like you want to believe one thing very much is not
a substitute for the actual truth to the rest of us, and never will be.
~~~
frgtpsswrdlame
>if anything it is leaning in Damore's favor.
This isn't true.
~~~
submersiveblue
Sure it is, and a number of scientists in the relevant fields have spoken up
and said so. Here's a start for you:
[https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/no-the-google-
manife...](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/no-the-google-manifesto-
isnt-sexist-or-anti-diversity-its-science/article35903359/)
~~~
BinaryIdiot
You know, every single person on the internet that I've seen argue that the
science is solid in the Google memo point to this article in The Globe and
Mail. It's bizarre.
I've tried to toe the line and not get into the argument as much as I can
because, as evidenced by the previous HN thread [1], it's just two sides
yelling past each. Some are citing scientific papers stating _they_ are
correct (which a single paper does not make), others are arguing based on
remembering other scientific papers and virtually no one seems to be an expert
but are all commenting as such.
What I would like to point out is the article in question isn't very well
sourced. It points to "four - academic studies" [2] [3] [4] [5] but none of
those are actual studies; they're all replies to a single study (Sex beyond
the genitalia: The human brain mosaic [6]) and none include a methodology to
how they came to their reply conclusion as the full text barely contains
anything additional to the extract. Now I'm not _writing them off_ as wrong
but those are being misrepresented as studies without having the proper
information a study or research paper would require. Unless it's available
elsewhere? It's unclear at least to me and appears, again to me, as very
misleading.
Ultimately there is _a boat load_ of research out there. Some of it is going
to support the Google memo writing. Some of it will not. Some of it can be
used to represent _both_ sides of the argument. I think a better article,
should one exist, should be used to defect your viewpoint should you side with
the Google memo. Much of science requires a consensus and rock solid testing
methodologies and I'm just not seeing that sourced in the article.
Again, I am not an expert but this is my impression from this article. Feel
free to make any corrections to my statement :)
[1]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14952787](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14952787)
[2]
[http://www.pnas.org/content/113/14/E1968.extract](http://www.pnas.org/content/113/14/E1968.extract)
[3]
[http://www.pnas.org/content/113/14/E1971.extract](http://www.pnas.org/content/113/14/E1971.extract)
[4]
[http://www.pnas.org/content/113/14/E1966.extract](http://www.pnas.org/content/113/14/E1966.extract)
[5]
[http://www.pnas.org/content/113/14/E1965.full.pdf](http://www.pnas.org/content/113/14/E1965.full.pdf)
[6]
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4687544/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4687544/)
~~~
Spivak
That article is circulated because it showed up here and, unlike a lot of the
blogspam, the author has the credentials to have an informed opinion about the
current research. Here's another one, but from a Psychologist rather than a
neurologist.
[https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/08/07/contra-grant-on-
exagge...](https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/08/07/contra-grant-on-exaggerated-
differences/)
~~~
BinaryIdiot
> the author has the credentials to have an informed opinion about the current
> research
If you say so. I'm not an expert but as I wrote in my comment it appears
either terribly sourced or the author equates replies to research as full
blown studies.
> Here's another one, but from a Psychologist rather than a neurologist.
This one, as far as I can tell, mostly ignores much of the critical feedback
that I've seen so far. Again, I'm not an expert but I'm surprised it doesn't
call this out explicitly and in greater detail if the critics are wrong. Like,
it has some small references to it but not a lot of direct discussion around
it.
Not that all of the critical articles are better in terms of sources, etc I
just haven't seen any of the articles in support of the memo be very well
sourced or respond to much of the criticism directly.
------
marcell
I think the key new information is this:
> When I first circulated the document about a month ago to our diversity
> groups and individuals at Google, there was no outcry or charge of misogyny.
> I engaged in reasoned discussion with some of my peers on these issues, but
> mostly I was ignored.
Apparently he published the memo about a month ago, and was only fired when it
went viral externally.
~~~
dcole2929
The document seems to have moved in several stages. Distributed first
narrowly, before eventually going viral to the entire company, and then
spreading outward from there to the tech community as a whole before the media
eventually picked up on it. It's hard to gauge what the internal opinion was
on the issue without knowing how long it had actually been in circulation
widely within Google. It's completely possible that it took management that
long to catch wind of it.
------
wonderwonder
His presentation and the way he is representing himself appears to have hit an
interesting cultural middle ground. He clearly has the alt right supporting
him, but he also has scientists and professors from prestigious and relatively
liberal colleges publicly supporting the science of his argument. Even
commentators on NPR and the Times are supporting him and blaming google.
He does not come across as vengeful, just disappointed, appearing to have just
genuinely wanted to have a conversation about what he say as flaw/injustice in
the way Google approached hiring.
He is well spoken for the most part and decent looking, that in itself will
give this story legs and the media will want to have him on.
Google really made a mistake in their approach to this. I believe that if they
had just spoken to him and heard him out in the beginning after he submitted
his memo to their diversity department this never would have happened. As
another poster said, they could even have just paid him off and have had him
sign an NDA to go away.
This is a monumental failure of PR on Googles part.
~~~
dguaraglia
A monumental failure of PR would've been Google getting sued for gender
discrimination if this guy was ever put in charge of a mixed-gender team and
someone in the team thought they were being put at a disadvantage.
This guy clearly wanted to stir controversy, that's why the memo kept doing
the rounds (he says he submitted it to several diversity groups inside of
google himself.) I doubt he would've put up with having a "sensible
discussion" with Google HR and let it go.
~~~
throwaway12124
Google could easily have blacklisted him from any future management positions.
This would have been essentially cost-free to them.
~~~
unityByFreedom
And employee evaluations? Everyone takes part in those.
~~~
throwaway12124
Sure. Again, costs nothing.
~~~
unityByFreedom
Hmm, I have a different understanding of "costs nothing" and what is "easy" in
this context.
It would've been a lot of work for HR to deal with this internally.
As it is, it is also a lot of work for them to deal with anyway.
In the long run, it's anyone's guess. Companies set and enforce their values
how they please.
------
nyxtom
Alternative title: why I will probably never get a job in a number of
companies by stringing along political controversy.
In all seriousness, he knew the climate; made a prediction about that climate
and chose to prove it correct - even string it along after being fired. It is
almost a tragic irony that despite his biology background, he failed (or
perhaps intended to be fired) to see the evolutionary case for collective
altruistic punishment. In a data oriented climate like Google, there are other
approaches that could of been taken to address the individualism-
collectivism/relational scales by actually conducting and collection data from
employees.
The principle prediction boils down to: it is likely that I will be fired for
saying these things, here is some conclusions I came across, watch as the
community proves me correct.
Based on this approach and his appearance in alt-right videos/blogs, I can
only conclude he wanted to instigate chaos rather than have a data driven
discourse by conducting surveys and opinions from collegues. As such, it is
not unlike calling your friend up and prefacing an insult by saying: you are
likely to be hostile from what I am about to say. That's not being fired for
group think, that's being fired for instigating chaos.
If he had done alternative approachs, it is likely things may of been better
received given that a number of people within and out of the community appear
to have some lines of reasoning to agree with. Heck, even Sundar saw merit in
discussing some points.
~~~
dfps
Why should he have to?
~~~
nyxtom
He doesn't, but he made a prediction and was proved correct and thus was fired
as a result of the nature and dynamics of altruistic punishment. I claim that
his observations and claims about the diversity policy were merely a footnote
in a much more pointed argument. That is to say, the diversity policy was not
really what he intended to gain from this controversy but rather make it a
point to focus on politics, which is toxic enough in this society. We don't
need another talking head (left or right)
~~~
dfps
I didn't get that impression from reading it. There seemed a "political" (if
you want to call it that, but really it was more just what a person thinks is
right vs wrong and voicing that to try to convince people of it - ie
altruistic) part of it - his motivation had a color of mild/repressed outrage,
which showed up, but it was fairly broad and illustrated with lots of
points/considerations about the diversity controversy. I don't think a person
can downplay the 'politics' part just because its 'toxic' in society, because
that is the whole point, impetus, and the only reason readers will pay
attention to a thing.
Second, do you have some jumping off point for learning about 'collective
altruistic punishment'? After seeing you use that term I want to learn more
about it, but Google search doesn't show results that relate to the type of
situation we're talking about here (blind punishment of a wellmeaning member
who actually doesn't do anything wrong other than put the majority in a
position they don't want to be in and possibly confront their own
'wrongthinking' or 'wrongdoing'). I really want to learn more about the
concept if you have a link or some?
~~~
nyxtom
Some research will attribute group cooperation as a fundamental necessity in
human progress (given that it is almost impossible that we got anywhere
without specialization of tasks and an inherit need to cooperate between
groups). Other research points to egalitarian motives that deal with equality
between people. For instance, high earners at the expense of the lower
earners. Perhaps the egalitarian motives have to due with concentration of
power over others. That typically access to survival becomes increasingly
limited as power is concentrated. These attributes are different than the
evolutionary concern of competitiveness and a will to survive; but certainly
there is evidence of both being the case.
I should note that there is no way that biology will simply distinguish
between a well-meaning deflector and one who is antagonizing a group (such
that there is another way to explain it).
There is a lot of history of great thinkers who challenged conventional
thinking and were persecuted to the fullest extent of the time. I claim that
the way most groups justify moral perception and punishment inequalities can
be attributed to this evolutionary concept. From justification of slavery
(indeed even the repercussions of standing up against slavery was met with
changes in laws, and increase deterrents). What is particularly telling is the
impact of having this content go widespread in modern society on the internet
in the form of social media. It truly brings all of the subgroups that
participate online in this discussion to be motivated (from an evolutionary
standpoint) to make their case heard in an effort to persuade the group or
general direction of behavior between people (whether in small social
communities like HN or larger in Twitter, or between small teams...etc).
[https://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v415/n6868/abs/415137a...](https://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v415/n6868/abs/415137a.html?foxtrotcallback=true)
[https://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v433/n7021/full/nature...](https://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v433/n7021/full/nature03256.html)
The base of the argument is that it doesn't really matter if it's well-
intended or not; whether the content of the article is factual or deliberately
bias or filled with hateful rhetoric. The only thing that matters is
collective moral perception and the emergent properties of social structures
(from the smallest group to the largest society). This is evident in fact by
how a smaller group of people were not as hostile towards the author but the
large viral group was. This merits the idea that approach to varying groups
dynamics is an important factor to consider when challenging the norm.
Thought provoking indeed!
Notes: __ Muhammad ibn Zakariyā Rāzī or Rhazes was a medical pioneer from
Baghdad who lived between 860 and 932 AD. He was responsible for introducing
western teachings, rational thought and the works of Hippocrates and Galen to
the Arabic world. One of his books, Continens Liber, was a compendium of
everything known about medicine. The book made him famous, but offended a
Muslim priest who ordered the doctor to be beaten over the head with his own
manuscript, which caused him to go blind, preventing him from future practice.
__ Servetus was a Spanish physician credited with discovering pulmonary
circulation. He wrote a book, which outlined his discovery along with his
ideas about reforming Christianity – it was deemed to be heretical. He escaped
from Spain and the Catholic Inquisition but came up against the Protestant
Inquisition in Switzerland, who held him in equal disregard. Under orders from
John Calvin, Servetus was arrested, tortured and burned at the stake on the
shores of Lake Geneva - copies of his book were accompanied for good measure.
The Italian astronomer and physicist Galileo Galilei was trialled and
convicted in 1633 for publishing his evidence that supported the Copernican
theory that the Earth revolves around the Sun. His research was instantly
criticized by the Catholic Church for going against the established scripture
that places Earth and not the Sun at the center of the universe. Galileo was
found "vehemently suspect of heresy" for his heliocentric views and was
required to "abjure, curse and detest" his opinions. He was sentenced to house
arrest, where he remained for the rest of his life and his offending texts
were banned.
~~~
dfps
Thanks for the explanation, links and references. I found a few free ones (one
is
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3590188/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3590188/))
since I don't have a subscription for Nature.
I'm still not sure where to draw the line between Google, its managers, larger
society, and general ethics, in this case, or how to distinguish 'collective
altruistic punishment' from 'selfish punishment to forcefully protect
interests against challenges'.
One thing I'll note is that the case at hand would be the same if it weren't
collective, but was only one (probably relatively powerful) person trying to
protect themselves from a challenge. A second thing: that the article was a
different object when it was widely circulated (not just the same object
treated by a large group versus an earlier smaller group).
------
gavanwoolery
Somewhere between 30-40 (rough estimate) percent of the people I know support
Damore. Hardly a majority, but also an indicator that these are not the ideas
of a lone heretic. I am not as concerned with the fact that Google fired an
employee for having an opinion, but more concerned with the fact that they
only fire people with opinions that do not match those of the majority. Even
if Damore's opinion's were wrong (which, according to several scientists, they
are not), it should be ok to pose a theory without subjecting yourself to a
potential witch hunt.
~~~
dclowd9901
> which, according to several scientists, they are not
Good thing that's enough for a quorum. /s
There is absolutely no evidence that there is a biological imperative that
prevents women from being as effective as men at software development. None.
Zero. Zilch. Just about every disparity you can imagine can be categorically
dismissed by upbringing and cultural side effects.
It doesn't even pass the sniff test: do you really think there's something
inherent to the Y chromosome that allows better rote analysis?
~~~
alexandercrohde
I'd just like to share, for those who didn't study psychology and don't know
of the sex differences (ON AVERAGE) between men and women, it IS a
scientifically established phenomenon, even at a few months of age (i.e. pre-
culture).
Here's a really fun example:
[http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanbody/sex/add_user.shtml](http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanbody/sex/add_user.shtml)
[requires flash though]
Now I'm not going to say anything about engineering or anything like that. All
I believe is that you can't rewrite science to align with your politics.
Science has no political leaning.
~~~
dclowd9901
Appreciate the addition to the conversation, but since it doesn't say anything
about efficacy in engineering, I'm afraid it's just noise.
~~~
renaudg
The memo didn't claim anything about _efficacy_ in engineering, period.
It claimed some contribution of biology to career _preference_ on average,
which is absolutely supported by research :
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3166361/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3166361/)
"We explored the contribution of sex hormones to career-related interests, in
particular studying whether prenatal androgens affect interests through
psychological orientation to Things versus People. We examined this question
in individuals with congenital adrenal hyperplasia (CAH), who have atypical
exposure to androgens early in development, and their unaffected siblings
(total N = 125 aged 9 to 26 years). Females with CAH had more interest in
Things versus People than did unaffected females, and variations among females
with CAH reflected variations in their degree of androgen exposure. _Results
provide strong support for hormonal influences on interest in occupations
characterized by working with Things versus People._ "
~~~
dguaraglia
Don't you think that, considering trying to get women into STEM fields is a
pretty recent effort, jumping to the conclusion that "it must be because of
biological reasons" that they are not interested and then we "shouldn't be
doing anything"?
Would you have held the same opinion, had I said "well, there might be
biological evidence that African-Americans are not interested in going through
higher education, so we should not worry about trying to help poor black kids
go through university" 40 years ago?
------
ejlangev
> "When I first circulated the document about a month ago to our diversity
> groups and individuals at Google, there was no outcry or charge of
> misogyny."
Kind of meaningless though, could be he only sent it to people who agreed with
him or who were men.
"Goolag" shirt is pretty on the nose, I guess true hardship in Silicon Valley
is losing your well paid tech job for... another well paid tech job?
It's funny that he refuses to admit any fault in what he said even in a
limited way when ideological rigidity and refusing to entertain other people's
ideas in good faith is exactly what he's complaining about in others. Doesn't
seem like this experience has resulted in him rethinking much of anything.
Suppose it's true that whatever you accuse the other side of is exactly what
you actually do.
~~~
leifaffles
What should he apologize for?
"I'm sorry for telling the truth."?
~~~
ejlangev
He doesn't have a monopoly on truth, that sort of presupposes that he was
completely right and handled the situation perfectly. Perhaps he'll feel
differently when the dust settles as another commenter suggested.
~~~
leifaffles
Again, what should he apologize for?
You seem to really want him to repent for something. What is it?
~~~
notacoward
How about for the things in his memo that were _not_ truth? Sure, there's a
bit of truth in it. There's much more that's debatable at best, and some
that's pretty clearly false. How about for the totally off-topic nastiness
toward the left, and diversity advocates, and others? Even in a memo about the
driest of technical minutiae, comments like "honest discussion is being
silenced" and "X tends to deny science" (with not even an attempt at proof on
either point) would be worthy of censure. The memo was clearly written in a
style more likely to escalate conflict than to create any positive outcome, so
the reaction when Damore or one of his cronies leaked it beyond its supposed
original distribution was entirely predictable. If you do something that
simple diligence and common sense say would lead to a massive productivity-
destroying flame war, you have something to apologize for.
~~~
fche
> "honest discussion is being silenced"
I'm pretty sure that being fired - having pitchfork crowds go after you and
people who agree - is close enough to being silenced.
~~~
notacoward
The memo was written before that, and one extreme case does not prove a
general trend. If one person is ejected from a concert or rally or trial for
being disruptive, does that prove there's a general conspiracy against people
with the same beliefs?
------
danso
Archive [http://archive.is/nc8Ij](http://archive.is/nc8Ij)
------
peripitea
"In my document, I committed heresy against the Google creed by stating that
not all disparities between men and women that we see in the world are the
result of discriminatory treatment."
If _that_ is why Mr. Damore thinks he's being lambasted, he really doesn't get
it.
~~~
kinkrtyavimoodh
Not sure what you mean, because plenty of people lambasting him ARE indeed
lambasting him over the suggestion that it's incorrect to insist that anything
short of a 50-50 gender ratio at Google is because of discrimination against
women.
Of course they are not lambasting him in those words (that would be
charitable). They are saying ridiculous nonsense like "Google employee claims
women are inferior than men" or "Google employee claims women are not suited
to be software engineers".
~~~
dguaraglia
> Of course they are not lambasting him in those words (that would be
> charitable). They are saying ridiculous nonsense like "Google employee
> claims women are inferior than men" or "Google employee claims women are not
> suited to be software engineers"
Things he wraps around in cozy wording, but essentially suggests to be true.
If not, what's the point of him complaining about outreach efforts? It's not
like right now we are in a scenario where, say, 45% of the engineering
workforce at Google is female, and Google is trying to force a 50/50 split.
It's _not even close_. Right now the number is 20%, are you telling me it's
settled science that should be the ratio? Because if you have hard numbers
proving that's the case, then by all means, Google is wasting money in
outreach efforts. You should tell them right now.
------
mtanski
> When the whole episode finally became a giant media controversy
This is a bit self referential.
But seriously who cares. People get fired daily, many of them get fired
unjustly... and you know what we don't write tons and tons of articles about
them.
At first I felt a bit bad for the guy... socially awkward guy who jumps to
some misguided conclusions based on quoted research. Ideally, he would get
some kind of training maybe an explanation from a sociology researcher how he
incorrectly jumped to conclusions.
But this woe is me shtick, reaching out to the alt-right publications, then
continuing on to do an op-ed on the WSJ. I no longer feel bad for him; he got
what he deserved.
~~~
gizmo686
He didn't make this a national controversy. But since it is a national
controversy, and he is at the center of it, why shouldn't he make the most of
this opportunity?
~~~
rhizome
That depends on what you mean by "most."
------
KaiserPro
So the problem is this:
there are parts of his "manifesto" that are actually quite interesting, about
the nature of diversity, its key importance for the health of a company. The
supplemental implication that diversity should be able to be justified by its
own terms, and not held on a pedestal, guarded by armed militia.
the problem is that he half-arsed the bit about biological differences.
Firstly he didn't bother to find decent primary sources (I suspect because
they didn't backup his initial point.) There are other assertions that are
iffy, but they will be utterly forgotten, as they are not as simple as "he
said women are Inferior"
The problem for google is this:
o If they fire the author, they create a martyr
o If they keep him on, he would have been de-anonymised
o If they didn't fire him after being found out, they would have been accused of harbouring a malfeasant misogynist.
Basically its your standard loose loose situation for a company.
All of which masks the main point of this whole cerfuffle. what is the nature
of diversity
I think Diversity is good. I want people from all walks of life in my company.
However I also want Equality of access and treatment.
Hiring someone because they conform to a (non work skill based) target is
discriminatory. discrimination is the enemy of diversity, be it positive or
negative discrimination.
~~~
nyxtom
> Hiring someone because they conform to a (non work skill based) target is
> discriminatory. discrimination is the enemy of diversity, be it positive or
> negative discrimination.
Not sure about this one, companies hire based on whether or not they feel like
people will be a cultural fit _all the time_ (in the positive and negative
sense). Is it discriminating to avoid hiring someone whom you perhaps could
expect will not keep pace with what is required of their job? Or use company
hours to stir up political controversy? I realize that some of this is a
straw-man argument given the overlap of the discussion, but cultural fits are
something companies do whether it is direct or indirect bias. Stirring up
controversy is almost by definition the antithesis of a productive work
environment; this is evident by all the time now wasted in the totality of
Silicon Valley at this point. Is it a bad idea to stir the pot? Absolutely
not, but these are definitely causal effects of it (good or bad). That being
said, there is probably some evolutionary utility in generating such
polarities as I would expect a social group to address the point of
controversy where they vehemently disagree.
~~~
KaiserPro
_this_ is the debate we should have been having.
Your observation is 100% correct, and the hardest part to overcome. How does
one change practices, without imposing, or lowering standards, or deliberately
introducing social 'sand' around which pearls must be built to maintain
productivity.
Hiring for cultural fit is not intrinsically antithetical to diversity. Most
cultural qualities that I've seen are based around universal human qualities.
But you are correct that they can be an impediment. Especially as cultural fit
is by its very nature difficult to define.
We must also tackle training, because we can't magic up highly skilled people
out of nowhere.
------
notliketherest
Let's hope this doesn't get flagged and buried like the "Google CEO should be
fired" link. This is clearly relevant to a large percentage of Hackernews
readers and bears discussion. There irony of stories related to this getting
flagged and hidden is rich.
~~~
alexandercrohde
I know nothing about the "CEO should be fired" link (nor does it sound like
something I'd want to read).
But I can wholeheartedly agree that this is one of the deepest, most emotional
divides I've seen in an otherwise fairly united community. I think it's been
continually swept under the rug for years because companies don't want it
associated with their name (remember the whole dongle-joke github thing?), nor
should they really.
~~~
peoplewindow
There was an op-ed in the New York Times saying Pichai should be fired. The
discussion was flagged off the front page.
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14990494](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14990494)
------
naturalgradient
What I find very dysfunctional is that rarely anything ever happens to the
ones doing the shaming.
They are most toxic to an organisation's culture in the long run.
It is a failure of management that people fuelling the outrage cycles via
public shaming, virtue signalling and grandstanding feel empowered to exercise
mob justice.
~~~
rhizome
Are you saying that the entire concept of shame should be disregarded? On the
other hand, might he be _guilty_ of something? Of creating a hostile
workplace, of destroying his own credibility with regard to performance
reviews and interviewing, or at least, at Google, supporting his reasoning
with bad science? Even outside of his employment environment, there's
something to be said about his skills _as a scientist_ as they are illustrated
by the essay, about whether he was a false positive that slipped through
GOOG's hiring filters.
~~~
pooh_smear
> about whether he was a false positive that slipped through GOOG's hiring
> filters.
IIRC he mentioned in an interview that he got the highest performance rating
and a promotion last cycle.
There is a middle ground to shaming. People can overshame and instances of
overshaming have been very toxic. For example, calling for violence or for a
coworker to be fired. These instances are never punished.
~~~
jcranberry
He was also on the Google search team, which we all know is full of scrubs and
duds.
------
minimaxir
Although many of the submissions to HN about the Google Memo have been
redundant, this _is_ new information.
~~~
storrgie
It feels like it was a relatively 'quiet' scuffle when it comes to Hn
discussion. I hope this post gets discussed without being buried.
~~~
tajen
Previous posts have been censored: They would appear in the most active list
[https://news.ycombinator.com/active](https://news.ycombinator.com/active) and
never be seen on the homepage.
~~~
dang
You can use the word 'censor' if you like but it's the normal action of user
flags, software, and moderation and it works much the same way regardless of
the story. This tends not to be so visible during turbulent periods, but what
can you do.
'Google memo' stories have been on HN's front page. Many more have been
flagged off it. That is understandable because they didn't contain significant
new information. Quantity isn't the criterion here. Hot-topic discussions tend
to all be the same, and the substantiveness quotient declines steeply under
repetition.
Many of the flagged stories have still been vigorously discussed (i.e.
hundreds of comments each), so I wouldn't use the word 'censor' for those. The
site goal isn't to hide them, it's to preserve the variety and substantiveness
of the front page, which I believe is why most people come here.
~~~
peoplewindow
This thread has disappeared from the front page, but it doesn't say it's been
flagged. What's up with that?
~~~
dang
It's there now; there's a certain amount of fluctuation as upvotes and flags
come in.
The [flagged] annotation only appears when flags exceed upvotes by a certain
threshold. Story rank is affected by flags before that.
~~~
peoplewindow
Thanks for the explanation.
------
brian-armstrong
There's a lot of hypocrisy around this individual. If he were a woman facing
termination for speaking out about something, then people would be referring
to this media tour as "attention whoring." Instead this is being given the
context of somehow speaking out against some kind of oppression.
No matter where you stand on the issue, he disseminated a company wide memo
criticizing the company-wide hiring practices in a preachy way that didnt
leave room for the company to answer back. In what company would that not be
labeled insubordination?
~~~
adamiscool8
From my reading it actually left a ton of room for an equally well-measured
rebuttal, which I have yet to see.
~~~
milcron
[https://medium.com/@adljksbvkj/heres-your-point-by-point-
ref...](https://medium.com/@adljksbvkj/heres-your-point-by-point-refutation-
of-the-google-memo-b7201d0cca04)
~~~
zbobet2012
Oh lord that's note even close to a good rebuttal. Mostly because it starts
off with a list of "sexist" assumptions, some of which don't even tangentially
relate to the memo.
What the article says:
> Sexist assumption 6: Gender bias is not a real issue. Anyone who thinks so
> is blinded by political bias.
What the memo says:
> Of course, men and women experience bias, tech, and the workplace
> differently and we should be cognizant of this, but it’s far from the whole
> story.
Literally, can anyone argue against the guy without misrepresenting and
demonizing his argument? I don't even agree with him and find this stuff head-
ache inducing.
~~~
milcron
Also from the memo:
> We have extensive government and Google programs, fields of study, and legal
> and social norms to protect women, but when a man complains about a gender
> issue issue [sic] affecting men, he’s labelled as a misogynist and
> whiner[10].
"Gender issue issue", as in complaining that gender issues are taken too
seriously?
Damore kept saying he acknowledges that sexism exists, but none of his
suggestions actually address it. It's as though he paid just it enough lip
service to scrape by. The thrust of his argument is that the gender gap can be
entirely explained by personal choices or innate qualities.
I agree the rebuttal gets off to a rocky start because the assumptions seem
hyperbolic. It gets better by the end, as each one is explained.
~~~
zbobet2012
> "When a man complains about a gender issue issue [sic] affecting men"
>
> In no way is that referring to "complaining that gender issues are taken too seriously?"
Read the link cited with that sentence and you might understand it better.
That also is a complete misreading of that sentence.
It is saying that _gender issues which affect men are not taken seriously and
are discarded_. To quote the associated sources TL;DR
Both genders have issues
Also:
> The thrust of his argument is that the gender gap can be entirely explained by personal choices or innate qualities.
Let me emphasize the TL;DR from the memo for you, since you have seemed to
miss it.
Differences in distributions of traits between men and women ***may in part explain*** why we don't have 50% representation of women in tech and leadership.
Honest question, why is it so _hard_ to accept that his position might be
nuanced?
~~~
milcron
> Read the link cited with that sentence and you might understand it
better. It is saying that gender issues which affect men are not taken
seriously and are discarded.
I wonder what gender issue Damore found himself facing. Homelessness? Murder?
And when he raised those issues he was labeled a misogynist? That doesn't seem
to fit.
It's hard to accept that there is nuance in the memo, because it's only found
in broad sentences like this one:
> Differences in distributions of traits between men and women may in part
explain why we don't have 50% representation of women in tech and
leadership.
There's nothing wrong with this sentence. The trouble is that he never
concretely addresses reasons for the gender gap other than innate traits.
There is some nuance in his memo, but there isn't _enough._
What about all these documented biases? Surely these are affecting womens'
careers too:
* Men get better assignments. [https://hbr.org/2013/09/women-in-the-workplace-a-research-ro...](https://hbr.org/2013/09/women-in-the-workplace-a-research-roundup)
* People assume mothers to be inherently less competent and less committed than fathers. [https://hbr.org/2013/09/women-in-the-workplace-a-research-ro...](https://hbr.org/2013/09/women-in-the-workplace-a-research-roundup)
* Women negotiate as often as men, but face pushback when they do. [https://womenintheworkplace.com/](https://womenintheworkplace.com/)
* Women get less access to senior leaders. [https://womenintheworkplace.com/](https://womenintheworkplace.com/)
* Women ask for feedback as often as men, but are less likely to receive it. [https://womenintheworkplace.com/](https://womenintheworkplace.com/)
* Women get less useful feedback than men. [https://hbr.org/2016/04/research-vague-feedback-is-holding-w...](https://hbr.org/2016/04/research-vague-feedback-is-holding-women-back)
* Women get criticized more than men. [http://fortune.com/2014/08/26/performance-review-gender-bias...](http://fortune.com/2014/08/26/performance-review-gender-bias/)
* Women are more frequently characterized as “too agressive”. [https://www.wsj.com/articles/gender-bias-at-work-turns-up-in...](https://www.wsj.com/articles/gender-bias-at-work-turns-up-in-feedback-1443600759)
* Women leaders face higher standards and lower rewards than men leaders. [http://www.catalyst.org/knowledge/double-bind](http://www.catalyst.org/knowledge/double-bind)
* Women leaders are perceived as competent or liked, but rarely both. [http://www.catalyst.org/knowledge/double-bind](http://www.catalyst.org/knowledge/double-bind)
* Women’s code is accepted more often than men’s, but only if gender is hidden. [http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-35559439](http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-35559439)
Sure, he says that innate traits are only part of the cause. But the rest of
his essay implies they are the primary cause.
~~~
zbobet2012
I felt like responding this bit seperately:
> I wonder what gender issue Damore found himself facing.
Homelessness? Murder? And when he raised those issues he
was labeled a misogynist? That doesn't seem to fit.
because its bluntly, quiet tone def. In many ways much more tone def than the
memo. "Dalmore could not have possibly had a negative experience that had to
do with male gender issues".
Being a "nerd" he _almost assuredly_ deals with and has delt with male gender
issues such as "lacking masculinity" his entire life.
Playing a game of "my problems worse than yours". Or "your problems are
trivial" is not a great way to win over an audience wouldn't you agree?
~~~
milcron
You're right, I was missing this. I followed his hyperlink[0] and immediately
started reading section 10.1, but he probably meant section 10.3. In that case
I'll have to retract what I said. Thanks for putting me straight.
[0] [https://becauseits2015.wordpress.com/2016/08/06/a-non-
femini...](https://becauseits2015.wordpress.com/2016/08/06/a-non-feminist-
faq/#addressing)
------
notacoward
Predictably dishonest.
> I suggested that at least some of the male-female disparity in tech could be
> attributed to biological differences
...and then said whole lot more. Sundar Pichai did not specify _which_ parts
of the memo were considered to have violated the code of conduct. Without
that, it's disingenuous for Damore or anyone else to _assume_ it was the one
part they want everyone to focus on (because the rest are weaker).
> I committed heresy against the Google creed by stating that not all
> disparities between men and women that we see in the world are the result of
> discriminatory treatment.
OK, James, who was claiming _all_? Show us where that claim was made. Or is
that just a strawman?
> Upper management tried to placate this surge of outrage by shaming me and
> misrepresenting my document
Who _among Google 's upper management_ misrepresented the document? Where,
when, and how? Or is that just a Trumpian persecution complex?
~~~
dguaraglia
Prepare for the downvotes. Nobody points out holes in Damore's arguments and
survives the rage of the poor downtrodden males of HN.
~~~
Chris2048
Do you believe your own comments on the matter are "pointing out the holes"? I
think "misrepresenting" and "spreading vitriol" is more accurate.
------
anindha
If the memo was against the code of conduct, why did they wait one month to
take action?
A better response from HR would have been to tell him: "this may violate our
code of conduct - could you please take it down for the moment while we
discuss amongst HR".
This could have turned into a reasonable internal discussion than a media
circus.
~~~
tajen
I don't think he leaked the memo himself, did he? He showed it to coworkers, I
don't think he expected viral sharing.
~~~
anindha
He didn't leak the memo but it was shared publicly within Google.
------
t_fatus
It's nice to finally hear the other side of the story. It has been a public
execution for now, and I think, even if the way he formulates it might be
better, that he has got a very good point: more and more the debate is cut
short on some subjects, and some people rather keep their opinions to
themselves by fear of being ashamed by the 'empire of the Good'. Not that I
agree or not with their ideas, but it makes me sad to see self-limitation of
free speech.
------
frgtpsswrdlame
I think this is the problem:
_Google is a particularly intense echo chamber because it is in the middle of
Silicon Valley and is so life-encompassing as a place to work. With free food,
internal meme boards and weekly companywide meetings, Google becomes a huge
part of its employees’ lives. Some even live on campus. For many, including
myself, working at Google is a major part of their identity, almost like a
cult with its own leaders and saints, all believed to righteously uphold the
sacred motto of “Don’t be evil.”_
Google may ingratiate itself into all these parts of your life but really it
only wants one thing: your work. Damore fell into the illusion that Google
really was a way of life, that they ever really cared about a political
debate. They don't. It's just a company. Keep your political opinions out of
the workplace.
~~~
alexandercrohde
I think the inconsistency I see, is that those who wrote letters of complaint
about him did so out of a political agenda. I see this argument being used
unilaterally. You could just as easily say to those offended "Don't read
things you are offended by. Shame on you for reading political stuff at work,
keep it out of here."
[Seeing the tone of this thread I expect to lose a lot of karma for this, but
it's just imaginary internet points]
~~~
frgtpsswrdlame
>I think the inconsistency I see, is that those who wrote letters of complaint
about him did so out of a political agenda.
You mean those outside of the company like on twitter and stuff? Sure I agree,
but they're not bringing it up at their workplace. The people working at
google who have complained I think is actually reasonable. Damore brought this
issue into the workplace. When somebody brings an issue like that in, your
solution is that everybody should ignore it? It has to be addressed at that
point. Really I'd say if you go to your job and you bring outside political
issues into your workplace you're creating a messy problem because you're
piercing the work-veil so to speak.
~~~
alexandercrohde
Does it have to be addressed?
It went largely ignored for months. I suspect the reason this went viral was
the offended parties recirculated it amongst themselves.
If the explosion is the problem, consider the gunpowder, as well as the spark.
~~~
frgtpsswrdlame
>Does it have to be addressed?
Yes.
>It went largely ignored for months. I suspect the reason this went viral was
the offended parties recirculated it amongst themselves.
But we don't know how widely circulated it was during those months, in fact we
don't really know anything about it's release. It seems to me that it was
circulated among what was probably a small group who agreed with damore (a
boys club if you will :P) and then broke out of that group, other people
started reading it and all hell broke loose. The fact that no one discovered
it for months doesn't really change anything about the memo or its contents.
>If the explosion is the problem, consider the gunpowder, as well as the
spark.
I do consider both. Damore wrote the memo (gunpowder) then released it at his
workplace (the spark.)
~~~
alexandercrohde
Or maybe there is a large community of very angry people who identify as
victims (gunpowder) and this particular piece was the spark.
Maybe it's just a matter of time until this same group gets offended by
another controversial political opinion held/shared by a coworker.
~~~
frgtpsswrdlame
Or maybe there is a large community of very angry people who identify as
victims (gunpowder) and this particular firing was the spark.
It's not a useful distinction. By the same argument all the people upset about
his firing should stop reading the news about it and get on with their day.
All these valley programmers who lean right politically do seem quite eager to
play the victim after all, really they're out looking for something to set
them off like Damore's firing aren't they? They obviously have a political
agenda don't they? They're recirculating news about damore's firing amongst
themselves aren't they?
It's inane, the problem has a defined source: Damore bringing his political
opinion into the workplace.
~~~
alexandercrohde
If your facts aligned with my experience, that'd be fine.
But let me tell you a story. Once at an SF unicorn a girl said in a public
slack channel "I'd feel unsafe as a woman if my manager ever said Trump isn't
a sexist." She was most certainly _not_ fired.
So it's not been my experience that politics in the workplace is the root of
the issue, because I seem to see it being really enforced unidirectionally
(mind you I'm on the left myself). Hell, I've worked at two places where the
CEO very clearly had a strong, personal negative reaction to Trump.
The issue I think I see is the weaponizing of PC to penalize non-left opinions
as "offensive/inappropriate" which I think undermines the pursuit of truth (a
value I hold higher than any political affiliation)
As a thought-experiment, suppose somebody had posted a writing exactly like
what Dalmore posted in tone, but had the _exact opposite view_. Do you think
they would have been fired for bringing up politics at work? Let's be honest
with ourselves here.
[Note these two issues keep getting conflated. It may be that sexism exists,
as well as asymmetrical regulations on how political speech is punished at
work. ]
------
Jun8
This piece is a huge missed opportunity for Damore. He could have used this
chance to reach a wide audience and explain his arguments; instead he goes for
a sensationalist tone (and image with the Goolag shirt).
~~~
Chris2048
a sensationalist tone _does_ reach a wider audience. If nuance attracted
eyeballs, none of this would be happening.
~~~
brailsafe
I really hate how right you are.
~~~
Chris2048
_alt_ -right? :-)
------
alexandercrohde
How does one vouch for this?
I don't think this article deserves to be flagged. I'm also unclear if whoever
flagged it was trying to flag the article itself or the discussion it created.
~~~
detaro
You can only vouch for things that have been killed by flags (are _[dead]_ )
~~~
alexandercrohde
Oh. Does the flag penalize it in the rankings?
~~~
detaro
Yes, flags have quite strong impact on ranking.
~~~
alexandercrohde
So there's no way I can "vouch" for it to not be buried somewhere off the
front page? That's too bad.
I understand the intent of the algorithm, but personally I feel these are some
of the great conversations of our age being held by some very smart people and
it seems like the discussions keep disappearing once they get good.
------
alexandercrohde
Can anybody please talk about the actual science here?
As far as wikipedia is concerned, yes there are biological mental differences
between men and women. I see a lot of "This is so disgusting I won't even
respond to it," which is a cop-out.
But here's wikipedia:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_humans#Psyc...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_humans#Psychology)
~~~
lancewiggs
Wikipedia is not a scientific source, nor is it (at all) an unbiased source.
~~~
alexandercrohde
All due respect, wikipedia cites only published scientific articles. You're of
course free to edit it if you think it has an anti-left bias...
------
egonschiele
So far most of the discussion has been around a. whether the facts in the memo
were accurate and b. whether google was right to fire him.
Can we talk about whether putting out a memo like this is a good idea? What is
the benefit of putting out a memo like this? Clearly James saw a problem and
is trying to fix it.
Sexism does exist, even today, even in Silicon Valley. Why put out a paper
saying that biological differences between men and women result in fewer women
in tech? Women are already the underdogs in this fight. Even if it's true,
what is being improved by him pointing this out?
It kind of feels like if someone was to put out a paper saying "The Koch
brothers pays millions of dollars in taxes but my neighbor doesn't. That's not
fair!" Why defend the side that already has too much power?
------
AcerbicZero
Another reasonable, fairly noninflammatory piece of writing from Mr. Damore.
I'm sure this will be read carefully by his critics, so they can provide a
rational, articulate rebuttal.
------
dcole2929
I think a lot of people struggle with the idea that how you say something
matters as much if not more than what you say. And Damore definitely seems to
suffer from that. He's focused on the fact that his document was to his mind
well reasoned and factually supported (it has citations I guess), while
ignoring the problem, that it was also incredibly tone deaf and to an
uncharitable reader offensive. Assuming you take no issue with the evidence he
cites, his reasoning is at best flawed, he ignores a lot of easily cited
counter evidence, and worst of all uses a lot of strongly coded language. I'm
fully willing to believe his intentions were as he stated but the fact is his
memo doesn't present well unless you're already inclined to believe his
argument.
Also generally speaking, upsetting a large number of people you work with is a
good way to get fired. Sound arguments or not. People have been fired for
repeatedly microwaving smelly food in the kitchen, and other comparably minor
offenses. Releasing a document which criticizes the companies hiring practices
and can be validly interpreted to call into question the credentials of many
of your coworkers is a no brainer pink slip.
------
unityByFreedom
When has it ever been socially acceptable to demand that another individual
discuss everything that you want? I would never go up to my friend and say, I
want to talk about coconuts! If you don't want to talk about coconuts, then
you're not really open and tolerant! You are intolerant of my affection for
coconuts! Meanwhile, I'm willing to talk about coconut milk, but you require
that the conversation include discussion of the shell.
Nobody would ever do that.
Damore stubbornly ignores Pichai's willingness to discuss some of what he
wrote more deeply. Damore pretends that Google isn't willing to discuss _any_
of the issues he raised, which isn't true. And, he really has no standing to
demand his political beliefs be discussed at work. If people don't want to
discuss them, including his managers, and they feel he's being a distraction,
then he's out.
------
dvfjsdhgfv
> I engaged in reasoned discussion with some of my peers on these issues, but
> mostly I was ignored.
So as long as the memo was internal, nobody cared. It looks like he was fired
because the memo went viral, not because he wrote and submitted it to the
diversity groups (which happened a month ago).
------
foobar_femme
Brilliant. At last Michael O. Church is not Google's silliest hire.
If only they had not fired this doofus and turned him into an alt-right
martyr. They could just have assigned his silly ass to Special Projects and
let him ride out the attendant humiliation.
------
losteverything
It doesnt sound like he regretted what he wrote or wished he had a "do over"
~~~
Chris2048
Why would he?
~~~
s_kilk
Because his piece is filled with logical errors, makes a big noise about
reason and logic while citing evopsych nonsense which isn't regarded as actual
science?
I mean, beyond any discussion of his ideology, the memo is laughable trash.
~~~
kevinsundar
I have read the memo the entire way through. Can you explain these logical
errors that it is filled with?
~~~
dguaraglia
OK, I'll bite.
The whole argument is weak simply based on his relative dismissal of societal
factors because, he argues, there's proven biological differences. So, he just
concludes that "meh, we shouldn't try to change the status quo, because that'd
be discrimination."
He built the straw-man ("politics based discrimination"), he gave it a name
("left-wing ideals") and then proceeds to beat it. The problem is the straw-
man has little merit: there's no known quantifier of how much 'lack of
interest' in the field is caused by societal factors, and how much might be
caused by biological factors. Without that, isn't it a bit premature to
conclude that it is discrimination _against men_ to have outreach programs for
females?
The point that bothers me the most about this memo is that Damore is
intelligent enough to know exactly what kind of reaction he would elicit. I'm
not buying for a minute his claim that he just wanted "a healthy discussion."
You don't put everything in terms of "left and right" and then say "and the
left is repressive and authoritarian, and what's more, wants to discriminate
against people like me" and then get to pretend you are not biased.
~~~
Chris2048
_you 'll_ bite?! _you_ are the one being asked to back up _your_ assertions.
You think you don't need to? It's your reasoning people would be incredulous
to swallow..
~~~
dguaraglia
Huh? The fact that the majority of people dismissed this memo, and is actually
a small amount of the usual suspects getting "offended" about Damore getting
fired, tells me that people are more "incredulous" about _his_ argument.
The funny bit about "my assertions" as you call them, is that actually the
only "assertion" I make is: this is not settled science; trying to build an
argument around it is as useless as us trying to decide policy by speculating
on whether Bitcoin will destroy fiat money or not. It's people like Damore
(and you, apparently) who are trying to make this a "settled matter".
Please, back _your_ assertions. Please tell me in concrete numbers what
percentage of women are not interested in STEM because of biological factors?
I mean, if it's settled science, you surely know the answer, right?
~~~
Chris2048
> The fact that the majority
Where are these "facts"? I was talking about the credulity of _your_ comments,
not the memo. But in fact I'll admit I made an error here - I misread, you
aren't OP.
> trying to build an argument around it is as useless
He tried to begin a discussion. His memo was based mostly on feedback he'd
received in doing so. Please quote Damore (or me) otherwise; I can't find
reference to "settled matter" you put in quotation marks.
~~~
dguaraglia
> Please quote Damore (or me) otherwise; I can't find reference to "settled
> matter" you put in quotation marks.
Let me break it down for you, because it seems like the inference chain is
escaping you:
\- The moment he starts suggesting "things we can do to fix this", it's clear
that there's a problem. I mean, why suggest fixes if nothing's broken?
(Engineering 101)
\- What's the problem? Apparently, trying to reach a 50/50 gender parity is
discriminatory. But wait a minute, that's about the split in population, so
how can that be discriminatory?
\- There has to be something that Damore knows that we don't know that
explains why 50/50 is wrong. Turns out, Damore has _solid evidence_ that women
are not willing to participate in engineering at the same rate as men are.
Never mind that only 70 years ago women couldn't even participate in the
workforce, or that all the way until double-income families became necessary
they were _actively discouraged_ to participate in the workforce. Never mind
that only about 30 years ago the US started programs to encourage women to
participate in STEM careers. I mean, all those things wouldn't explain the
disparity, so there has to be _something else_.
\- Well, of course! It's the genes! I mean, we know (from his memo) that women
are just not interested in "things" but "people" (conclusion derived by a
study that has been debunked and even the author couldn't replicate) and that
they "get more anxious". You know girls, they freak out and stuff! Of course
that'd explain why they feel anxious in a job where they are literally
surrounded by males. Nothing to do with things like "beer thirty" being the
norm, but rather it's _their genes_. D'oh!
So that's the crux of it: Damore admits that there's social issues, but rather
than addressing them and seeing if the disparity fixes itself, he'd rather
call the efforts "discrimination" without any proof that actually they are
affecting males. He could've made a solid argument (and one that wouldn't have
gotten him fired) if he had asked, honestly, whether creating different queues
for minority candidates isn't in itself a form of discrimination. Laying out
his theory about women being "different" is where he went against Google's
Code of Conduct. That kind of shit is better left for r/theredpill, not your
work environment where you have to interact with women.
I hate reminding you, but this kind of "biological arguments" were made about
black people until very recently. Going back to your "metaphor" about
segregation: Damore is not Rosa Parks, he's the driver trying to tell us that
"why should we let black people sit at the front of the bus, when they seem
pretty happy in the backseats."
~~~
Chris2048
If you've read the memo, then you don't understand it if this is your
conclusion.
> Turns out, Damore has solid evidence that women are not willing to
> participate in engineering
You've also tried to badger me with "demands" for whatever level of certainty
you decide. Please quote the memo section that you are referring to when you
say "Turns out".
> Never mind that..
If you think you have a better case for explaining the disparity, then do as I
suggested, and create a memo of your own. Are you claiming that the memo
_must_ be a fraud, because your own opinion isn't represented in it? Maybe if
you researched the matter you'd be surprised that your arguments aren't as
strong as you thought.
> a study that has been debunked
But don't bother to link to the study, the line/page in the memo, or any
aspect of its debunking?
You flip out over the Rosa Parks metaphor, but have no problem with saying:
> this kind of "biological arguments" were made about black people
Hmmm
~~~
dguaraglia
> Please quote the memo section that you are referring to when you say "Turns
> out".
That was obviously tongue-in-cheek. Damore doesn't have any solid evidence,
just an "intuition" (read: bias) based on some articles he's read. At least
he's honest enough to admit he's not infallible. You, on the other hand...
> Maybe if you researched the matter you'd be surprised that your arguments
> aren't as strong as you thought.
Please, correct my wrong assumptions. You seem to be well informed in the
subject, seeing as you are telling me I'm wrong. So far, you've been incapable
of answering the simplest of questions: what is the number of women who are
not interested in engineering because of biological causes?
> But don't bother to link to the study, the line/page in the memo, or any
> aspect of its debunking?
This is the study:
[https://www.researchgate.net/publication/222673203_Sex_Diffe...](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/222673203_Sex_Differences_in_Human_Neonatal_Social_Perception)
Here's some critique on methodology:
[http://www.thetutorking.com/2014/08/criticisms-of-
connellan-...](http://www.thetutorking.com/2014/08/criticisms-of-connellan-
baron-cohen.html). Google for more, it's not that hard.
As an aside, notice that the split in the study doesn't correlate with the
80/20% gender divide at Google. So even if the study was correct, Damore's
point would _still_ be bullshit.
> You flip out over the Rosa Parks metaphor, but have no problem with saying
Awe, look at you! Trying to do the old alt-right "by pointing out someone
else's racism you are the real racist" switcharoo! It would be cute, except
for the unfortunate events in Charlottesville that reminds us that racism is
alive and doing great in the US.
Yes, I do flip at people trying to use dubious "biological" causes to explain
away clear societal issues. You, my friend, are one of them.
~~~
Chris2048
> You, on the other hand...
Ad-hom?
> Please, correct my wrong assumptions
I've asked you to quote the memo, or provide citations. How can I correct your
assumptions, if I don't know how you came to those conclusions? Do you want me
to guess the ways you _might_ have come to those conclusions, or which parts
of the memo you might have misread? I'm not going to speculate if you aren't
going to substantiate your assertions.
> You seem to be well informed in the subject
The subject in this case is "What the google memo says", we've yet to advance
from there. Given the tone of your posts, I'm not inclined to enter into a
general discussion on the topic. But you've misrepresented Damore's memo, And
I think this should be corrected.
> This is the study..
Which paragraph of the memo cites the study? And where did you source your
version of the memo?
> Google for more, it's not that hard.
No, it's _your_ burden. And Google is not research.
> what is the number of women
I think I made myself clear. I'm not answering your questions until you
rescind or substantiate your assertions. And this question isn't one you want
answering, you are just asking it to imply it's relevant to the content of the
memo, which it isn't.
> switcharoo
Problem is "pointing out someone else's racism" requires "someone else's
racism". You flipped out because you don't want to conflate Damore's situation
with Parks', but you'll happily conflate it with that of racists of the same
era. You asked "what has [the memo] got in common with Jim Crow" in disgust,
but now you're equating google engineer writing a cited memo about gender
differences, to exactly that.
> racism is .. doing great in the US
So far as the events in Charlottesville are representative of the entire
country - which they aren't.
> You, my friend, are one of them.
In your opinion. And you opinion is informed by a severe lack of
comprehension, in both the contents of the memo, and my own posts. So long as
you are not arguing in good faith, I doubt this will change.
~~~
dguaraglia
Wow man, you managed to write a whole reply, line by line, without stating a
single thing about what you agree with in the memo. Not surprised.
------
graycat
Lesson 1: Don't talk about sex, politics, or religion.
Source: Very, very old stuff, I got from Mom. I wish I'd always followed it.
Lesson 2: Don't tell them ANYTHING!
Source: From an astoundingly, intensely socially cautious person, my mother in
law. Some of the most intense brain activity I ever saw was by her anywhere in
public. So, e.g., the woman I married found E. Goffman, _The Presentation of
Self in Everyday Life_ easy reading and obvious! In part the mother's
intensity came from some delicate, highly stressful circumstances of her
mother in the Great Depression where in their small community just a single
wrong word could wipe out the finances of the family, literally.
Lesson 3: "... keep to two subjects: the weather and everybody's health."
Source: _My Fair Lady,_ advice to Professor Higgins who was socially crude!
Lesson 4: He who always calls a spade a spade is fit only to use one.
Source: Common from some parts of the English upper class.
I was very slow to follow this advice. So, I had to learn the hard way, pay
"full tuition", from experience -- "Experience is the great teacher, and some
will learn from no other."
So, Professor Higgins had to learn these lessons the hard way. Much of the
theme of the movie _Patton_ was that Patton also had to learn the hard way.
IMHO, basically the advice is good. I've been astounded at how eager some
people, how many people, are eager to attack strongly against any violation of
those lessons. My current working guess is, TOO MANY people are just wildly
oversensitive to even small violations of those lessons. So, the simple
solution is, when in doubt, which means nearly all the time, follow the
lessons.
Yes, there is a downside: As in E. Fromm, _The Art of Loving,_ four of the
keys to intimacy (between the ears if not between the legs) are knowledge,
caring, respect, and responsiveness. Here, for "knowledge" he meant, roughly
from memory, "giving knowledge of one's self to the other."
So, the lessons above conflict with this part of Fromm's version of intimacy.
So, if have a really good relationship with your spouse and work at a place
where some wound up clique is running the place and has their war paint on and
are on the war path, then express your true feelings -- blow your stack, blow
off steam -- in private, at home, with your spouse.
For more examples, apparently in WWII, both the German army and the Japanese
navy were very intense organizations. Victorious? No. Intense? Yes!
So, can remember the movie _Tora, Tora, Tora_ where in the WWII Japanese navy
apparently a subordinate needed an explicit "you may speak freely" to say
much. And in the TV series _Winds of War_ apparently a German officer was
encouraged to voice whatever concerns he had until the superior issued a
direct order at which time the subordinate would stop the concerns and just
say "Immediately".
Once around DC I was in a part-time job working myself and my wife through our
Ph.D. degrees. At one point the US Navy had a request: Evaluate the
survivability of the US SSBN (missile firing submarines) fleet under a special
scenario of global nuclear war limited to sea. They wanted the results in two
weeks. Gads. Well, I found a continuous time, discrete state space Markov
process and delivered something in two weeks, and apparently they liked it.
Then a few days later, some guy I'd never seen before was in the offices. He
wandered back to my office and started making small talk. He did this for 1-2
hours a day, for about 2 weeks. Gee, it was no longer small talk! He got the
conversation going to current political topics of US national security and
defense. I answered like a well informed voting citizen with some reasonably
solid, not very unusual, opinions. Dumb de dumb dumb, dumb. Looking back it
was a high end security interview for some high position, and I missed out on
it. Should have followed Mom's advice: Don't talk about politics. Certainly
don't talk about national security politics in an office doing classified work
for the US Navy.
Another related lesson: Limit all communications with co-workers to objective
aspects of the work, and do not permit more than trivial instances of small
talk. Such small talk can be the seeds of destructive office gossip,
deliberate efforts to distract from the work, etc. Sure, the small talk should
avoid sex, politics, and religion, but should avoid essentially everything
else, too. So, limit small talk to, say, very short, obvious, trivial,
innocuous remarks on the weather -- of course, NEVER mention "global warming"
or "climate change"!
~~~
zbobet2012
This is his biggest mistake. Even if your managers are calling for you to do
so, don't break any of these rules.
And if you do, do it with careful preparedness about setting and context. Do
not publish it. Oh and be prepared to be fired anyways.
------
nunez
I just read the memo: [http://archive.is/5wD9x](http://archive.is/5wD9x)
I _really_ don't think he should have been fired over this.
~~~
dguaraglia
Let me guess: you are not a woman, or friends with women working in the field?
~~~
nunez
The former is correct; the latter is not.
------
wyclif
Apparently many HN users still don't understand how flagging is supposed to
work. This is a first-person account from the subject of the controversy, so
it shouldn't have been flagged. Flagging is for spam and off-topic posts. The
echo chamber, attacks on heretics, and attempts to enforce groupthink are
strong on HN, which should not surprise anyone given how woven it is into SV
culture.
------
systems
does anyone really believe that google handling of diversity, will have any
impact on its future
is it easy to copy google, to build a competitor can google competitors really
beat it, by handling diversity differently
lets be realistic .. unless google breaks the law somehow in its handling of
diversity .. anything they do is subjective ad of little impact on its future
~~~
wmil
> lets be realistic .. unless google breaks the law somehow in its handling of
> diversity .. anything they do is subjective ad of little impact on its
> future
Ad-words provides most of Google's revenue. As long at ad-words stays on top
the rest of the company can be dedicated to summoning Cthulhu without
endangering it's future.
------
rsp1984
Non-paywalled version go through here:
[https://twitter.com/fired4truth](https://twitter.com/fired4truth)
~~~
mrisoli
Thanks for the link, but how cringe-worthy is this Twitter? I find memes to be
very discrediting to one's claim and the Goolag bus stop felt like trying to
meme out a serious issue.
------
mychael
South Park predicted this
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXF8MIG_HQI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXF8MIG_HQI)
------
jsky_goog
This was briefly on the frontpage but now I can't find it listed on HN. Did
this violate some kind of rules?
------
devdad
A tinfoil hat would go great with that t-shirt.
------
ariofrio
How to read this through the WSJ paywall:
1\. Go to [http://drudgereport.com/](http://drudgereport.com/)
2\. Open your browser's inspector (usually F12)
3\. Modify a link to point to [https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-i-was-fired-
by-google-15024...](https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-i-was-fired-by-
google-1502481290)
4\. Click on the link
5\. Voilà!
~~~
vernie
Visiting the Drudge Report is too high a price to pay.
------
dfps
What will happen next though?
------
dfps
Can someone post this. It's paywalled
~~~
tartuffe78
prepend it with facebook.com/l.php?u= followed by the url and you should be
able to see it
------
vgprice
He is wearing a shirt that says "goolag" from Google's logo. I love it. One of
the better corporate slave names.
Edit: This is more memeish if anything. Google is obviously not comparable to
a gulag, its just the closest negative pun.
~~~
akhilcacharya
Seems a bit much to me. When the Soviets put undesirables and political
prisoners into gulags they didn't give them fabulous salaries and incredible
perks.
~~~
m00x
I think the intent is for it to be over the top. Poking fun at something with
excessive force with a catchy name works really well for branding. Works right
in the meme culture.
------
dguaraglia
> That's your opinion. You've not made the case the memo has "no merit"
I just replied to your other comment clarifying why the memo is weak at best,
and a stupid violation of the code of conduct at worst.
> No you aren't, you don't have a case.
Oh, yes I do. Males working in Silicon Valley complaining about their precious
feelings have 0 of my sympathy. I'm a male and work in tech. You don't see me
or any of my friends whining about "discrimination" because more women are
coming into the field. It's beyond ridiculous. Only people who are not very
sure about their skills would be complaining about that.
> quote it specificly.
Refer to my other comments. Essentially he tries to pass the biological
argument as the One True Argument, completely ignoring that while the social
arguments are still there the biological argument is unquantifiable and
building a case around is bullshit.
> There are citations in the original memo
The citations don't quantify, they just quote. Nobody, ever, has put a number
to the percentage of women that don't go into engineering for "lack of
interest" derived from biological factors. It's literally unquantifiable.
> Just because you have none? Read the memo, that's a start.
I read the fucking memo. It reads exactly like the kind of shit I'd expect
from a "disenfranchised" alt-righter. I'm surprised he didn't publish it on
Breitbart.
> For me to read the memo to you?
No, for you to give me a number. What percentage of women are not interested
in engineering _because of genes_. C'mon, can't be that hard!?
~~~
Chris2048
>> you don't have a case
> You don't see me or any of my friends whining
ok, datapoint #1 - you and your friends. Have anything better? You think
that's a case made?
>> quote it specificly.
> Refer to my other comments
The ones where you also don't quote anything specifically?
> No, for you to give me a number.
Show me the part of the memo that requires it? _you_ are the one that
suggested the memo said things that it didn't.
~~~
dguaraglia
> Show me the part of the memo that requires it? you are the one that
> suggested the memo said things that it didn't.
What, _exactly_ does the memo say in your opinion? Because so far I hear you
complain about all kinds of things it allegedly doesn't say, but I haven't
heard you explain what it _does_ say. I understand that's the semantic game
most alt-righters love to play, but c'mon, if you want me to take you
seriously at least _argue_ something instead of just saying "no, didn't say
so."
~~~
Chris2048
Oh I see, I'm an "alt-righter" now? Presumably part of the down-voting brigade
from Breitbart you assumed to exist.
Sorry, but I'm not doing your work for you. You made false claims, burden on
you is to back them up, or otherwise rescind your claims. I've asked you to
quote, or cite the memo, and you haven't - now you want me to instead?
~~~
dguaraglia
The burden is on you to prove I've made false claims. Again, you keep saying I
said something wrong and yet never point out _what_. The moment I ask you to
point out what, you just scurry away saying "I'm not gonna do your work".
Seems to me like you don't have a point to make.
~~~
Chris2048
> The burden is on you to prove I've made false claim
Holy-shit. Ok, I'm calling you out as a troll. Enough is enough.
~~~
dang
You've posted something like a hundred comments in a row engaging in flamewar
and ideological battle on this site, after agreeing not to do that when I took
the rate limit off your account. What do you think we should do when people
promise to follow the rules and then don't?
I realize these threads have been wretched trainwrecks but it looks like
you've done as much as anyone to make them so. I'm putting the rate limit back
on your account, and if you continue to abuse HN by either (a) using it
primarily for political and ideological battle (b) stooping to incivility and
tedious tit-for-tats, we will ban you.
~~~
Chris2048
> after agreeing not to do that
What defines a "battle" or "flamewar"? There are no rules that clarify this. A
tit-for-tat would be if I were as uncivil, but I gave a _lot_ of good faith
before opting out.
------
pooh_smear
Things look like they are turning around. Mainstream media wouldn't normally
publish the "evil" side's story unaltered, although WSJ has always been
respectable.
~~~
dguaraglia
Please. The WSJ is owned by Murdoch, owner of Fox News, who brings you some
brilliant totally not biased authors like Suzanne Venker who teaches women
they are going to be way happier if they just give in and become doormats for
their husbands.
------
nilved
nm
~~~
atarian
He was publicly given job offers from Wikileaks and Gab:
[https://twitter.com/JulianAssange/status/894834730461483008](https://twitter.com/JulianAssange/status/894834730461483008)
[https://twitter.com/getongab/status/893975352804028417](https://twitter.com/getongab/status/893975352804028417)
~~~
cycrutchfield
LOL, birds of a feather flock together
------
dghughes
When I was a kid we used to take aptitude tests to figure out what we were
good at. Isn't aptitude essentially what Mr. Damore was debating?
------
wybiral
Yeah but it seems like Google was just a bad cultural fit for him anyway. He
should have applied at Uber or something.
Edit: Too soon?
------
ue_
>My firing neatly confirms that point. How did Google, the company that hires
the smartest people in the world, become so ideologically driven and
intolerant of scientific debate and reasoned argument?
This statement leaves me divided. One could soundly argue that Google isn't
the place for "scientific debate and reasoned argument" on that topic, and
there is such thing as appropriate and inappropriate topics, and correct and
incorrect channels to discuss those topics in.
To say that Google is simply "intolerant of scientific debate" misses the
point. I'm sure Google has research divisions in which scientific debate
occurs. The point is that they're not debating whether women are more
predisposed to front-end development or not.
There's a time and a place; I'm not sure what made Mr. Damore think it was
either the time or the place for his "scientific debate" (which, I may be
wrong, didn't actually invite debate, it was more of a rant) such that now he
has sound basis to say that the issue _doesn 't_ lie with his choice of words
in the document, how he approached the matter, where he published and if it
was in good faith or not, and it _does_ lie with Google simply being
"intolerant of scientific debate".
I wouldn't stand up in a high school (or any level of schooling) biology
classroom, read from a list of even science-based points about gender or race,
which genders or races are fit for certain tasks etc. with or without
citations, and complain my conservative views are being silenced. Why?
_Beacuse it 's not appropriate for the time and the place._
~~~
danarmak
> which, I may be wrong, didn't actually invite debate, it was more of a rant
You are wrong. Why do people persist in commenting about a document they
appear not to have read?
The memo can be found at
[https://diversitymemo.com/](https://diversitymemo.com/) .
~~~
ue_
I have read it, though I can't find where he calls for scientific debate (or
any kind of debate) rather than reeling off a list of points with more
Wikipedia links and popsci articles than someone with research skills should
know not to put in. I just realised how comical the little table of "left
biases" and "right biases" is, even if he does try to hedge out the unfounded
categorisations with "it's not 100% accurate".
------
jahaja
I have no idea why people are giving this guy the benefit of the doubt in
absurdum. Apparently if he quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, he is a cat.
I mean heck, among the first thing the guy did is to give interviews to
dubious people (with slanted views matching the docs generalizations) and
printing up a damn "Goolag" t-shirt?
So even now with the benefit of hindsight people seem still convinced that
this was more or less a scientific doc with no ideological bias. The ability
to read between the lines seems to blinded by vague links to academic papers.
------
monodeldiablo
Required reading for this discussion: [https://medium.com/@adljksbvkj/heres-
your-point-by-point-ref...](https://medium.com/@adljksbvkj/heres-your-point-
by-point-refutation-of-the-google-memo-b7201d0cca04)
And, for those still outraged by his dismissal: Damore made a subset of his
co-workers feel uncomfortable. That's all the reason any at-will employer
needs in order to pull the trigger. End of.
There are constructive ways to discuss diversity in the workplace and
potential ways to improve it. His memo (and the WSJ "open letter") is a great
example of how not to conduct this conversation.
~~~
zbobet2012
Oh lord that's note even close to a good rebuttal. Mostly because it starts
off with a list of "sexist" assumptions, some of which don't even tangentially
relate to the memo, or are directly contradicted.
What the article says:
> Sexist assumption 6: Gender bias is not a real issue. Anyone who thinks so
> is blinded by political bias.
What the memo says:
> Of course, men and women experience bias, tech, and the workplace
> differently and we should be cognizant of this, but it’s far from the whole
> story.
Literally, can anyone argue against the guy without misrepresenting and
demonizing his argument? I don't even agree with him and find this stuff head-
ache inducing.
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Deciding among a hacker's best friend: pens - jseliger
http://jseliger.wordpress.com/2009/04/05/product-review-pens
======
pasbesoin
I used to have a Koh-I-Noor brass barrel Rapidomatic 0.5 mm mechanical pencil
that was the best thing I'd ever written with. Foolishly, I took it to a
training class one time and lost it. I've never been able to google or eBay a
replacement. (There is still a Rapidomatic line, but it is plastic barreled,
without the stability and heft that made the brass barreled model so
exceptional.
The closest I've found is the Rotring 600 line, which was still carried by
Levenger. Also metal, and with a decently decisive action, but neither as
precise nor as well weighted as the Koh-I-Noor. Checking now, it appears
Levenger no longer offers it.
The Koh-I-Noor loss has been a bitter blow. The weight of the brass provided
just enough pressure to allow the pencil lead to glide very smoothly over
paper with minimal downward pressure. And the weight was just enough to dampen
slight tremors without making writing an effort -- in fact, it was less effort
as I didn't have to work as hard to suppress the tremors and minor motions or
stutters against an uneven paper surface.
As for the "hacking" aspect: Pencil/pen and paper is still one to the best
interfaces I've found for prototyping and for freestyle association. In
addition to its freeform nature, I find writing is enough slower than typing
that it causes me, in slowing down, to really think things through. I may
generate less raw output, but it tends to be of higher quality. That extra bit
of delay often allows my mind to go further on a point and to gain insight I
otherwise might not achieve.
There is also something kinesthetic about pencil/pen and paper that resonates
with my personality. Working in the medium itself begins to generate a
positive feedback loop.
------
christofd
I like the Pilot G2 XF very much. The normal Pilot G2 is a little thick. For
Fountain Pens I really like the aluminum Rotring pens (German). They're a bit
heavy, but they feel like a real tool. Ah damn, Rotring doesn't make em
anymore... Well, Lamy fountain pens are really good and cheap (also German):
<http://www.lamyusa.com/safari.html>
The Pilot Disposable Fountain Pen is hilarious: [http://www.pilotpen-
store.com/product_detail.asp?T1=PIL+SV4B...](http://www.pilotpen-
store.com/product_detail.asp?T1=PIL+SV4B%2DBLU&).
------
joe_bleau
My Koh-I-Noor was a 0.5mm Rapidomatic 5635, white plastic barrel. Great
pencil, until the barrel broke. I replaced it was a Rotring (probably the 600,
although I'm not exactly sure), sold by Levenger under their name. (The clip
is stamped Rotring, though). It's very nice, solid brass, and easily as good
as my (plastic) Koh-I-Noor.
I've had a few other very nice pencils. Less technical is the Pentel Kerry
(<http://www.jetpens.com/index.php/cPath/45_356>) --everyone should own one.
The Ohto Tasche (<http://www.jetpens.com/index.php/cPath/45_131>) is almost as
nice.
The Pentel Graphgear 1000 (<http://www.jetpens.com/index.php/cPath/340_118>)
is good drafting pencil, but not quite as 'dense' as the Rotring. It has a
decent retractable sleeve, which might give it just a bit more wiggle. I also
have a Ohto Promecha 1000
(<http://www.jetpens.com/index.php/cPath/340_154_659>) and Super Promecha 1500
(<http://www.jetpens.com/index.php/cPath/340_154_663>), but to me they seem to
be more about trickery than solid quality. The SP1500 has about four
adjustments, so it's got quite the geek factor going for it. Pick one up if
you're into mechanical pencils.
I love the _very_ fine line gel pens that are now available from
<http://www.jetpens.com> and <http://www.jstationery.com>. The Pentel Slicci
(<http://www.jetpens.com/index.php/cPath/239_342>) is my fave, but check out
the Pentel Hybrid Technica (<http://www.jetpens.com/index.php/cPath/239_241>),
the Uni-ball Signo DX (<http://www.jetpens.com/index.php/cPath/239_286>), Uni-
ball Signo Bit (<http://www.jetpens.com/index.php/cPath/239_61>), and the
Pilot Hi-Tech C (<http://www.jetpens.com/index.php/cPath/239_284>).
As you can tell, I'm a little bit obsessive about writing instruments too.
------
tait
I enjoy the Pentel Graph Gear 1000 - pretty heavy for the $20 price and the
extended drafting-style tip retracts when the clip is opened.
<https://www.pentelstore.com/index.php?grp=760>.
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NYC Tech Boom: Not Just Mini Silicon Valley East - julien421
http://m.cnbc.com//id/100553792
======
bsg75
Not the first time I have read about this, but I am always curious about the
costs. NYC has some significant tax burdens, and property is difficult to find
and costs are high, correct? Does the professional population density offset
these costs?
_Disclaimer: I love NY_
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"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
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A Theory of Neural Computation with Clifford Algebras (2005) [pdf] - adamnemecek
https://www.informatik.uni-kiel.de/inf/Sommer/doc/Dissertationen/Sven_Buchholz/diss.pdf
======
MrQuincle
I'm not really aware about this application of Clifford algebra. I'll
summarize it as the algebra that operated on sets of scalars, vectors,
matrices, and up, so we can use both addition and multiplication between
Clifford objects. Just my recollection.
\+ I would assume then that keeping track of Clifford objects per neuron is
not biological plausible.
\+ I would then also assume that geometric manipulations are handled
differently than through Clifford algebra.
Just saying because biology is mentioned in a few places in the thesis as
motivation.
------
e19293001
Additional information for Clifford Algebra can be found here:
[https://slehar.wordpress.com/2014/03/18/clifford-algebra-
a-v...](https://slehar.wordpress.com/2014/03/18/clifford-algebra-a-visual-
introduction/)
~~~
tw1010
Oh that article again. It starts out great but I just get so worried about his
well-being when I read the epilogue.
~~~
rjeli
Rationalist thinking has taught us to scoff at anything greater than examining
physical reality by scientific method - greatest tragedy of the Enlightenment
~~~
tw1010
You are right. I should be more open to other perspectives outside the
paradigm I was taught. That's the only way to go against the historical
pattern discussed in the Structure of Scientific Revolutions. Thank you.
------
clwk
As I recall, the most interesting feature of these networks is that they do
better when learning geometric features in the presence of noise. Without the
added geometric structure baked into the network, the real neural nets overfit
and 'learn the noise' to a much greater extent.
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Webauthn – W3C's passwordless login specification - soulmerge
https://webauthn.io/
======
timClicks
"Attestation type"? Why create something intended for general use and hinder
its adoption by using words like that?
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Microbes Likely Abundant Hundreds of Meters Below Sea Floor - tellarin
http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2013/03/microbes-likely-abundant-hundred.html
======
tellarin
Very interesting findings. There is still so much we don't know about the
oceans...
But I guess this kind of news can be a show stopper for the recent rise in
interest for exploring extraction of minerals from the sea floor.
I'm kind of torn between being glad that sea floor wildlife may not be
destroyed after all; and sad for the boom in underwater tech that may never
happen. :-/
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Advice on obtaining an L1B visa - benlvink
I'm currently working at an Amsterdam based YC company with offices in the United States. Does anyone have advice on obtaining a L1B visa. I currently have experience in marketing and my role will be marketing and event manager.
======
djsumdog
Do you want to continue working with your company? If they have offices based
in the US, they should have people who can help you get the right work
permits.
If you want to shift to another workplace later, it's typically easier to
apply for different visa types when you're already legally working in that
country. It's also more likely other companies will sponsor you if you're
already there.
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Superconductivity theory comes a step closer - bookofjoe
https://physicsworld.com/a/superconductivity-theory-takes-a-step-closer/
======
bookofjoe
>Exact theory for superconductivity in a doped Mott insulator
[https://www.nature.com/articles/s41567-020-0988-4.epdf?shari...](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41567-020-0988-4.epdf?sharing_token=mIL4CBPX1NCveKUPNCgMCdRgN0jAjWel9jnR3ZoTv0OEOQRjLGYePEy0VCoNzOd2u2PoxQR7IO6ZhEPTCUweqaRMFMiAGylHODvcMByTy4UN9lDavpn7WdUzpmoAYEhEO9cwab6c0UrTgka7uGT9sk0tlFgm54lkggEdE4Z_ZVtcaRS6sW5WNM-
zeHGNH815W2HerjgGVwnl9g-peWEx5YFr9YkB7s6IJdtoRlnA97OMoR2efzrUsCK0Bxkkui_CoEoCpT6bA0bDFRJfQVKGGAcgqg23MC5iL3_BLRUxHus%3D&tracking_referrer=physicsworld.com)
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Polyglot stacks, alternative databases and performance fails - rebzees
Polyglot programming is the focus of this issue of the digital magazine JAXenter. From Shutterstock’s gradual evolution from one to many languages, an intro to polyglot IDE Komodo from ActiveState, plus intros to HBase and RethinkDB (both big salary-earners according the recent Dice.com survey), as well as JavaFX and Vaadin web applications. Also: valuable lessons about how to avoid performance failures on websites.
http://jaxenter.com/jax-magazine/issues/jax-magazine-may-2015-polyglots-do-it-better
======
rebzees
[http://jaxenter.com/jax-magazine/issues/jax-magazine-
may-201...](http://jaxenter.com/jax-magazine/issues/jax-magazine-
may-2015-polyglots-do-it-better)
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Making Playgrounds a Little More Dangerous - Reedx
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/10/well/family/adventure-playgrounds-junk-playgrounds.html
======
devchix
A recent episode of 99% Invisible: Play Mountain looked at how the playground
got to be safe and boring.
"A two-year-old boy named Frank Nelson was climbing a 12-foot-tall slide in a
Chicago park when he slipped through a railing and hit his head so hard that
it caused permanent brain damage. The park system of Chicago was sued and had
to pay out millions of dollars to Nelson’s family.
At that time, in the late 70s, there were no laws, or real industry standards
when it came to the safety of playground equipment. Frank Nelson’s fall was
one of a number of lawsuits that led the Consumer Product Safety Commission to
publish the Handbook for Public Playground Safety in 1981. Then another
standards organization, the ASTM, published its own guidelines. Pretty soon
these rulebooks were in the hands of insurance companies and parks departments
and school boards across the United States. To this day, almost all
playgrounds have to be approved by a certified playground safety inspector.
And safety inspectors look for places where kids could fall, or get pinched,
poked, or trapped. As you might imagine, all of these rules and regulations
make the job of playground designers a lot harder. This is the reason why the
playgrounds that you see everywhere all look more or less the same. A majority
of playgrounds are “post and deck” systems with standard swings, slides, and
monkey bars in one piece of equipment."
[https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/play-
mountain/](https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/play-mountain/)
~~~
magicalhippo
A friend of mine designs playgrounds for kids, and is very good at it (his
designs win 90+% of the competitive bids he enters).
He's also worked hard to put in place a playground safety inspector
certification system over here.
One of his core ideas is that there are two types of safety: subjective safety
and objective safety.
For example, kids quickly learn that falling from a height is painful, and
experiences such as that teaches them how to evaluate their own safety when
say climbing. This is the subjective safety.
However they're usually not going to be able to correctly evaluate the safety
of climbing a playhouse where they might get their head stuck between two
planks because the opening between the planks were just right for their heads
to fit, but not their bodies. Or that the hood drawstring in their jacket can
get stuck in small wedges and openings, especially dangerous near slides. Such
issues go under the objective safety.
Now, his point is that you can make playgrounds which are _objectively_ very
safe, without making them any less exciting. Part of the excitement comes from
allowing the kids to explore their _subjective_ safety boundaries, but a lot
comes from the design itself.
He often works with one of the major suppliers of playground equipment on
their new designs, but a large part of his secret sauce is how he places that
equipment on the playground. Many playground designers (which at least here
are mostly landscape architects) seem to just put one piece there and another
over there, without giving much thought to facilitating the flow of
spontaneous play from one piece of equipment to the next.
Anyway, he could explain this a lot better than me. I just help him out with
some presentations and such every now and then.
~~~
solipsism
I like the dichotomy, but for me the names "subjective safety" and "objective
safety" make no sense.
"Obvious dangers" vs "non-obvious dangers" seems like much clearer language,
even if it's the case that there's a way to squint to make the terminology you
used make sense. Kids will naturally explore the boundaries around obvious
dangers.
~~~
Swizec
I think subjective/objective makes more sense than obvious and not. Subjective
danger is things that feel dangerous but aren’t. Objective danger is things
that don’t feel dangerous but are.
For example: a rollercoaster is subjectively dangerous but objectively safe.
That’s its whole design objective, feeling dangerous while being totally safe.
~~~
solipsism
_Subjective danger is things that feel dangerous but aren’t._
That's not what the word "subjective" means. Language is malleable and all
that, but "subjective" doesn't mean "feels like but isn't". Not even close.
_Objective danger is things that don’t feel dangerous but are._
And wow, that's really not what "objective" means.
~~~
luhn
Subjective (adj)
1) Dependent on or taking place in a person's mind rather than the external
world.
2) Based on a given person's experience, understanding, and feelings; personal
or individual.
#1 is exactly “feels dangerous but isn’t”. #2 also works because it fits into
magicalhippo’s narrative about kids falling and adjusting their safety
boundaries.
I won’t bother about “objective danger” because you didn’t either.
------
fatnoah
The only anecdote I can share about this comes from the time my family was
touring a local day camp. On the tour, they showed us everything: archery,
fishing, swimming, ropes, and everything else you could think of. At one
point, we came to a massive, 10 foot high pile of dirt. The kids immediately
ran for the dirt pile and the parents' reactions were a 50/50 mix of "Awesome"
or "What are you building here?" I knew this was the camp for my kid when they
explained, the pile of dirt was just that. A big pile of dirt for the kids to
play in. It complemented the big pile of rocks that they also had.
~~~
twic
Me and a mate used to go out into the local woods, find little streams, and
dam them.
~~~
learc83
That was by far my favorite childhood activity. I must have built dozens of
dams on various creeks over the years.
~~~
cmrx64
I only fell through the ice once going over our makeshift bridge/dam... great
times indeed :)
------
gumby
An example from the '00s: We sent our kid to a German school in Menlo Park. He
immediately loved it on the first visit because the under-5s' playground was
full of old wood with splinters and dangerous tools (hammers, saws etc) and
the little kids could cause all sorts of ruckus, like building dams and
flooding them.
But the reality of a foreign-language school is that you need more than just
"nationals" (people who speak German at home or have one German-speaking
spouse in a couple) to make the finances work. And quite a few American
parents were and are interested because of the quality of education. But once
their kids were enrolled, many of them wanted more safety, more discipline, a
less casual attitude to kids getting naked, and academic work assigned to
preschoolers which is not part of the German pedagogy.
All of which made me wonder "why did you choose this school? And if you chose
it for its results, why challenge the process that _gets_ those results?" But
indeed, by the early 201Xs, the playground had been neutralized into the same
old anodyne sterility of the public parks.
(Amazingly, Silicon Valley has _two_ German schools within a few miles of each
other; one is subsidized by the government, the other is not so you get to
pick your ideology. But it does split the customer base).
~~~
eadmund
Heh, you get the same phenomenon with folks who move from a state because the
economic and/or legal conditions are no longer conducive to their desired
lifestyle — and then start voting for the sorts of politicians who put in
place economic and/or legal policies which are not conducive to their desired
lifestyle.
~~~
gumby
Good example! Also people who move to the bucolic countryside and then
complain about the pig farm next door.
We have this in Palo Alto: people move to the Cal Ave district and then
complain about the noise from the dive bar Antonio's that's been there for
decades. Fortunately the city has so far ignored these complaints.
------
radiorental
I have a zipline in my back yard, when I first put it up it was roughly 80'
long, my kids were 4 & 6 and I would manage them because (a) be a parent and
(b) they were careless/clueless AF.
I extended the zipline to 200' this spring, it goes over about 50' of water.
They're 6 & 8 now, they hook themselves up and do all the safety checks I
showed them once. Literally once.
They also have full access to my workshop, they respect it and ask before
cutting off their fingers.
I think we underestimate the young mind's respect for responsibility when we
give it to them. Conversely, if you protect your child from everything, they
do not develop the skills that ask inherent questions such as 'how can this
thing I'm about to do grow wrong? What is my plan if it does go south?'
~~~
matwood
I hated it at the time, but while growing up my dad made me help him with a
lot of his side jobs. These jobs often involved power tools like various kinds
of saws, chain saws, log splitters, etc... There was also minor electrical,
plumbing, and engine work often involved. My dad would point out what to do
and how not to get hurt. Obviously he would do anything beyond my ability or
strength, but I learned a lot just being part of the overall process.
Fast forward many years and I'm thankful for the learning that came out of
those times.
------
lucb1e
I was a stupid kid that fell from a high slide. My parents apparently made a
sizable donation after I landed with no harm other than a scare because of the
special tiles laid under it. Rather than paying for lawsuits, I'm happy to be
able to tell a story to the contrary of many in this thread, with a happy
ending and money going to the playground. My parents are great and I hope to
live up to this one day.
------
speeder
My second worst accident as a kid, was on a "safe" playground, when my finger
got stuck on a hinge of a swing.
My most daring stunts, were on "safe" playgrounds too, for example trying to
make swings do a 360 (yes, I tried that, never succeeded).
Both times what was going on my mind is that I wanted to do something fun, and
the equipment looked like it would work for what I wanted... Ended once even
accidentally disassembling a swing (it had a "hook" shaped hinge and I swung
it too far and it detached).
But the most fun I ever had... was playing on an uncle storage closet full of
boxes and old stuff, climbing on trees, learning to cook, making my own sword
when I was 16, and so on.
"Safe" looking stuff make people (even adults) do unsafe things (see the other
article about road speeds, mentioning how wider lanes make people speed more
and crash more often).
~~~
Tsagadai
A 360 on a children's swing can definitely be done. I've done it as a child
and as an adult. It usually needs to have a much longer rope/chain on it to
get the momentum up.
~~~
Doxin
Wouldn't you be limited to going 180 degrees? any more than that and you'll
start falling straight down on the backswing instead of swinging.
~~~
glaurung_
You're definitely right. I wonder if he's thinking of jumping off of the swing
and doing a 360 in the air.
Apparently it can be done if your swing has rigid bars in stead of ropes:
[https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6KvBn7QvzaI](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6KvBn7QvzaI)
------
tr33house
I loved this from one of the article's comments by Deb:
"The coup de grace, though, came the day I went to pick a student up from the
playground and as the child was running to greet me, the preschool teacher
sang out ‘Remember the new rule, Kai! No running on the playground!’
No. Running. On. The. Playground."
~~~
asciirobot
This is a real thing. Playground monitors are often little Hitlers. My old co-
worker and his wife have been dealing with this with their son. Playground
monitor woman makes them line up against the wall, has outlawed running, no
shouting or loud sounds, the list goes on. By all accounts, she's an extremely
bitter unpleasant human being and all round miserable wretch so she just takes
it out on the kids, robbing them of what little free play time they have.
Luckily my ex co-worker's wife is a bit of a trouble maker and has taught her
son to organize. He successfully organized a bunch of kids to protest the
unfair rules and draft their own set of rules they thought was reasonable.
Last I heard, they succeeded. Unfortunately that worked with a Napoleon
complex is still around but she's been somewhat neutralized.
------
alexhutcheson
There is good evidence that the rubber "safety" matting that's common on new
playgrounds causes significantly more long-bone injuries (broken arms and
legs) than previous surfaces like wood chips. Kids test the limits and play up
to the point of pain, so they'll leap off structures onto rubber matting in a
way that they wouldn't do onto wood chips or pea gravel. In the name of
"safety", we're using surfaces that prevent scrapes and road rash, but have
higher risk of more significant injuries when you account for the change in
kid behavior.
~~~
skavi
Why not use rubber mulch then? Lots of playgrounds already use it, and it
offers the cushioning of wood chips and the "softness" of rubber matting.
~~~
PetahNZ
I think he means wood chips hurt, so kids don't jump off things from so high,
so its less likely to break bones.
~~~
alexhutcheson
My understanding (not an expert) is that it's a combination of less high
jumps/falls because "wood chips hurt", and reduced long bone injuries for the
jumps/falls that due occur due to differences in the way the material responds
to the impact. Wood chips slide and absorb some of the kinetic energy, while
rubber matting (and probably rubber chips?) stay in place and rebound the
energy back.
~~~
robocat
As a kid there was gravel under the monkey bars. Not sure if it taught you not
to fall (I did fall, a lot!), but it definitely hurt when you did!
------
mherdeg
I was watching some kids in our local playground climb pretty high in some of
our local trees and wondering whether this a good idea, and came across this
writeup on risky play: [https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/freedom-
learn/201404...](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/freedom-
learn/201404/risky-play-why-children-love-it-and-need-it)
Modern parents who keep up to date on the parenting zeitgeist will have been
exposed to the complementary idea to risky play that instead of saying "Be
careful!" to a kid, you can instead ask "Do you feel safe?", helping emphasize
what it is that you actually care about and helping your kid develop their gut
feeling for what is/isn't a good idea. (See one writeup of this at
[https://rhythmsofplay.com/get-outside-connect-climb-a-
tree/](https://rhythmsofplay.com/get-outside-connect-climb-a-tree/) but a Web
search for ["do you feel safe" "be careful"] will find lots of people saying
essentially the same thing).
I wonder what the zeitgeist will say in 10 or 20 years - given what everyone
is thinking now, where will they be in a little while when we've had a chance
to reflect on what we've tried and how it's gone?.
~~~
fjsolwmv
Kids feel safe when they don't know what the dangers are. My kid would feel
safe sticking his hand in a pan of boiling oil
~~~
9nGQluzmnq3M
Once, but they won't do it again.
I wouldn't recommend starting with a pan of boiling oil, but my five-year-old
loves helping to make pancakes, and it took exactly one glancing touch for him
to learn that the edge of the frying pan is hot.
~~~
ahoka
These are the small dangers we rob our children of.
------
achenatx
My kids (11,6, 3) are so lame they are scared to play outside by themselves. I
bought 100 acres with a creek so we would have a place to hike, camp, explore,
build forts, shoot guns etc.
My kids have been so coddled, they cant even play in the yard for long before
they want to come in. Over the last year they are getting better, but when
they have friends over, many of them wont even go into the forest and will
only stay close to the house.
~~~
s3krit
if you don't mind me asking, when you say your kids 'have been so coddled',
well... by whom?
~~~
achenatx
our fault for living in a sterile suburb. All yards were fenced off so they
got used to playing in a cul de sac close to the house.
One of the reasons we moved was to give them more direct access to nature.
------
lb1lf
This, this, a thousand times this.
Life is about evaluating risk. You need to learn it at some point. A
playground is as good a place as any.
By all means, make them safe enough that kids won't get maimed or killed - but
keeping kids from ever falling far enough to feel any real pain is probably
counter- productive in the long term.
Sigh. My eldest kid's kindergarten advertised themselves as an outdoor
experience thingy, then proceeded to cut down every tree on their premises as
kids climbed them (the horrors!) and occasionally fell down (Aaaieee!) - so
better make the playground look like any generic McPlayground.
~~~
quakenul
> By all means, make them safe enough that kids won't get maimed or killed -
> but keeping kids from ever falling far enough to feel any real pain is
> probably counter- productive in the long term.
There is no room between "overprotection" and "freedom", that guarantees
safety from harm. Serious accidents have to be accepted before they even
happen.
A scary prospect for many parents, I am sure.
~~~
ip26
I'm not giving my seven year old the freedom to operate a chainsaw. I don't
think that counts as "overprotection", and I think it confers considerable
margin of safety from harm by chainsaw.
~~~
quakenul
> I don't think that counts as "overprotection"
Rest assured, I don't think anyone else does either.
------
badcede
"Grown-ups have taken all the fun out of being a kid just to save a few
thousand lives."
[https://scrapsfromtheloft.com/2017/04/06/george-carlin-
you-a...](https://scrapsfromtheloft.com/2017/04/06/george-carlin-you-are-all-
diseased-transcript/)
~~~
eridius
Tell that to the kids who died playing in unsafe conditions.
One can certainly argue that we've gone too far in the direction of removing
all risk of injury. But saving lives? _Absolutely_ the right thing to do! One
preventable death is one death too many.
The goal here should be "controlled risk". Not no risk at all, but controlled
risk in well-understood conditions to ensure that kids can still experiment
and have fun without risking death or permanent injury. This article mentions
kids having access to hammers and nails and planks to build stuff. That's
controlled risk; they could hurt themselves, but they're not going to kill
themselves (at least, not by accident). But you wouldn't give them a nail gun.
~~~
tomatotomato37
>One preventable death is one too many
The problem is right here, what is the society acceptable definition of
preventable? Keeping all children in hermetic bubbles would prevent all child
deaths due to disease, but weaken their immune system so much that the minute
they come out they would get sick and die as an adult. In effect all these
safety efforts are creating mental hermetic bubbles that fucks their future
mental state when they finally achieve independence.
~~~
ausbah
>Keeping all children in hermetic bubbles
To me that's kind of a facious slippery slope argument. Of course it isn't
worth it to completely lock down a person's life in the name "safety" or
"their own good", but when you can take measures that guarantee a greater
degree of safety with only a thin, marginal reduction in freedom, "living", or
whatever you wish to call it (if any reducation at all) - of course it is
worth it.
To me this would be something like restricting people's right to drive on
public roads when we have a fully autonomious network of vehicles (however
long that will take). Sure people are a bit more restricted in their freedom
to man a vehicle, but on the other hand you could (and this is what I am
wagering) completely eliminate the ~95% of vehicle accidents and deaths caused
by humans.
------
bongo662
I was lucky growing up in Kentucky, behind my parents house was roughly 20
acres of woods that couldnt be developed due to flooding. Was a great place to
play at all ages growing up - playing cowboys and indians, paintball, setting
up a ‘bmx’ course. We got hurt a lot of course falling out of trees breaking
arms and legs or landing in rocks and needing stitches. But it was a ton of
fun!
------
megous
Well, why not. It's a lot of fun to be playing with, climbing over and
exploring garbage like what is shown on the photos.
I'd just not kid myself. It will come with more injuries, hopefully not
debilitating.
I got several unpleasant injuries by playing freely with anything available. I
threw a metal rod through my feet. Jumped on a 4" nail while running, securing
my shoe to my feet, quite well, cut half my thumb off with my favorite knife.
:) All these things and more I can see kids be able to achieve in such an
environment.
I suspect that had my parents have to do more than just drive me to the
emergency, they'd be more involved in ensuring I don't do these things again.
I wonder if free public healthcare like in many EU countries vs whatever is in
the US has an effect on what parents let their children do.
------
lemoncucumber
I grew up going to the city of Berkeley's Adventure Playground
([https://www.cityofberkeley.info/adventureplayground/](https://www.cityofberkeley.info/adventureplayground/)),
which has been around since 1979.
It was one of most memorable and fun places I remember going as a kid. I did
once end up with a nail in my arm (which I still have a scar from), but even
after that happened my parents let me keep going back.
~~~
shereadsthenews
That place is hilarious. One time when I was there some kids were trying to
cut through a piano with a back saw, which makes an unbelievable noise.
------
United857
Same can be said for a lot of other things/activities many of us enjoyed
during childhood.
E.g. I remember playing with real chemistry sets with chemicals that could be
potentially harmful if ingested, alcohol burners, glass tubing we had to
flame-polish ourselves. Those are long gone; just replaced with "safe" but
incredibly dumbed-down kits that are little more than dyes/food-coloring.
~~~
burfog
Thankfully you can still get stuff at the hardware store. The plumbing supply
section has copper sulfate, sodium hydroxide, and sulfuric acid. The pool
supply section has 10 molar hydrochloric acid. The garden section has sulfur.
The paint section has xylene, acetone, and methanol.
For example, you can purify garden sulfur by recrystallizing it with xylene.
This is plenty dangerous, since xylene is almost like gasoline (a bit less
volatile) and you'll be heating it up nearly to boiling. The aromatic ring
structure is required; most other solvents produce deadly hydrogen sulfide
gas.
------
emptybits
Something from a similar set of values:
"Why I’m Sending My Child to Forest School and not Kindergarten"
[https://www.cbc.ca/parents/learning/view/why-im-sending-
my-c...](https://www.cbc.ca/parents/learning/view/why-im-sending-my-child-to-
forest-school-and-not-kindergarten)
~~~
shereadsthenews
Unfortunately in California "forest school" and other play schools attract
mainly anti-vaxxers and other weirdos. It might be a good idea, but the self-
selecting clientele are a problem.
------
dawnerd
This is essentially how I grew up. Was free to use just about any tool I
wanted. We dug holes, built tree houses ourselves, you name it. At one point
we even built two different sheds, just us kids without any adult really
helping.
I don't recall if any of us even got hurt doing this.
I also think cities moving towards higher density with little to no yards for
full homes isn't helping.
~~~
matwood
I got hurt plenty as a kid with quite a few scars to show for it. None of the
injuries were life changing though. Some of the dumbest things we did would
probably trigger a SWAT team today. Bottle rocket fights (do they even sell
bottle rockets anymore?). BB gun fights. They always lasted until that one kid
would pump his up more than once. We also lived on a river and started taking
the John boat out around 12 or 13.
------
bitwize
When I was a kid, my elementary school had an elaborate playground. The
standard swings, slides, and monkey bars -- with sand underneath for a soft
landing -- were supplemented with numerous structures built out of old tires,
including tire geodesic domes to serve as spaceships or houses and a tower
built out of giant tractor tires packed with sand and a wooden spire in the
middle to serve as a watchtower, ship's mast, or Decepticon base. Central to
this tire wonderland was TireTown, a huge two-story fortification with many
rooms, tire bridges to two smaller tire outposts and poles to slide down for a
quick escape.
But of course, this is southern Connecticut, where people have their lawyers
on speed dial. TireTown and its accoutrements were a lawsuit waiting to
happen. When I surveyed my old school on Google Maps a few years ago, they
were all gone, replaced with a much smaller standard playground.
~~~
takk309
That reminds me of my elementary play ground. We had lots of wood structures
and wood chips to "soften" a fall. Those wood chips were brutal when they
would freeze together in the winter!
------
eweise
If you like unsafe playgrounds check out this place in Berkeley
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adventure_Playground_(Berkeley...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adventure_Playground_\(Berkeley\))
Almost stepped on nails a few times. Only took my kids once. Felt a little too
unsafe.
------
petschge
How many extra lives are lost to obesity because children never learn how fun
it is to move outdoors? Everything is so safe and non-fun. Of course the
deaths 3 decades down the line are not attributed to overly safe playgrounds
and overprotective parents and nobody gets sued. So there is no need to fix
this...
~~~
dragonwriter
> How many extra lives are lost to obesity because children never learn how
> fun it is to move outdoors? Everything is so safe an non-fun.
I've yet to find a kid that doesn't find a flat field of grass outdoors to be
fun, so if there's a problem here, it's parents keeping kids indoors, not
playground safety being too good.
~~~
fjsolwmv
Hills are known to promote mentally stimulating play.
------
djsumdog
In high school I remember walked through the primary school and noticing both
jungle gyms were gone. Another friend said the big metal jungle gym at his
elementary school were gone too. Only the overhead monkey bars remained.
I suspect kids probably go hurt on these (they are solid metal bars that go up
pretty high after all). I've seen them return to playgrounds, but today
they're all made of rope and above softer material like sand or recycled
tiers.
Sure kids are safer today, but that element of danger is gone. I recently
though about that when I read "The Coddling of the American Mind," where the
authors talk about how kids are 'anti-fragile' and how trying to make them
safe actually keeps them from learning how to deal with tough situations in
life. I think they mention these types of playgrounds in the book.
~~~
Fwirt
I think some of this falls into the category of obvious risk versus hidden
risk. When I was a kid, I was playing in the park with some other kids who
were dropping through the bars of a dome-shaped jungle gym. I tried to follow,
dropped through, and found myself hanging by my head, which had gotten wedged
in the bars. I dangled there writhing around until my dad lifted me out about
10 seconds later. I had giant welts on the front and back of my head, and tore
all the connective tissue in my forehead, I could wrinkle it up like a Klingon
for years afterward. I think that particular jungle gym was removed after
that.
------
dllthomas
Can we get the spinny-thing-of-death back?
~~~
Something1234
The Merry Go Round?
~~~
dllthomas
Not the Merry Go Round.
[https://playgroundology.wordpress.com/2018/06/29/whats-
in-a-...](https://playgroundology.wordpress.com/2018/06/29/whats-in-a-name-or-
the-spinny-thing-of-death)
A glorious, if occasional, feature of my childhood. We did refer to it that
way, I think organically (perhaps just looking back and not at the time - I
can't recall). I found the article about it by googling the phrase!
I'm not sure how I'd feel about my own child on it, to be honest. I'm more
bummed that he isn't allowed to climb any of the disused locomotive engines
that are still present (but now fenced off) at a number of playgrounds.
------
stickfigure
Along these lines, Bay Area folks might be interested in _Camp Tipsy_ , the
crazy campout run by Chicken John where people build boats from junk and try
(not) to sink them. Lots of opportunity for kids to get in (the right amount
of) trouble.
It's coming up in a few weeks: [http://camptipsy.com/](http://camptipsy.com/)
(I'm not involved, just a frequent attendee - it's fun)
------
tempguy9999
I can't find it, but a few years ago one of the leading members of RoSPA (The
Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents,
<[https://www.rospa.com>](https://www.rospa.com>)) came onto BBC radio 4 and
argued their job wasn't to prevent all accidents, that some were unavoidable
and society shouldn't try for perfect safety.
It was a pleasure to hear.
------
throw7
I lived near and went to Action Park in New Jersey a couple of times. I was
too young to ride the water speedboats and motor go-karts though... bah! Those
were the days.
The issue is one of scaling risk as the knowledge and responsibility of the
child increases. It's not surprising we have sued things down to the
lowest/safest common denominator.
~~~
alexhutcheson
For those who aren't familiar with Action Park, the story is incredible.
This 14-minute video has some of the highlights:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKDx_piZvsg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKDx_piZvsg)
This oral history is pretty fascinating too:
[http://mentalfloss.com/article/536412/action-park-water-
park...](http://mentalfloss.com/article/536412/action-park-water-park-oral-
history)
------
stuart78
I'm all for these, but I do find it somewhat ironic that we've 'productized'
the junk yard, making it just safe enough for us to be comfortable with our
kids roaming 'free'. If it is a step towards liberation of youth I'll take it,
but it is still a half measure.
------
nkzednan
In a similar vein, a big park/playground recently opened in Tulsa, Oklahoma.
They had some inspiration from playgrounds outside the US.
[https://stateimpact.npr.org/oklahoma/2018/12/06/the-
surprisi...](https://stateimpact.npr.org/oklahoma/2018/12/06/the-surprising-
design-of-a-new-tulsa-park-where-children-learn-by-escaping-adults-and-facing-
obstacles/) \- mentions how some parts were designed to make it easy for kids
to go to certain places but hard for parents to follow.
[https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/10/arts/design/tulsa-park-
ga...](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/10/arts/design/tulsa-park-gathering-
place.html)
------
standinator
In my primary school we had some poles in the shape of a right triangle (with
one of the legs being formed by the ground) with different slopes, all of
which were 5-6 metres tall. The slope of the steepest one was nearly 80
degrees. The ground was tiny pebbles/gravel which made small falls somewhat
less of an issue. They served no purpose other than being climbed, it was
built to explore one's boundaries and to be brave. Most of us were scared to
climb them but some who were really good climbers had no problems and got
instant street cred by doing that.
------
newnewpdro
As a kid we would visit some elderly relatives who lived in a much older
neighborhood than our home's new suburban sprawl.
The park there had slides made of steel which towered above the area homes. It
was awesome and made those relatives my favorite to visit until the town
modernized the park and got rid of all the remotely risky stuff in the
process.
But shortly after that I discovered skateboards and stairs, and the joys of
evading the local community college police. Maybe it's OK that the parks are
neutered, we can still find risk if we want it.
------
twothamendment
One "dangerous" playground. Neptune Park, Saratoga Springs, UT. You have to
see a picture of the pyramid.
[https://www.google.com/search?q=neptune+park+utah#imagekey=!...](https://www.google.com/search?q=neptune+park+utah#imagekey=!1e10!2sAF1QipP4R2nlltRK0xuaDEB-r68BS0UKaTgeQNsZvfzO&lkt=LocalPoiPhotos&trex=m_t:lcl_akp,rc_f:nav,rc_ludocids:4568581851318178043,rc_q:Neptune%2520Park,ru_q:Neptune%2520Park&viewerState=lb)
------
arx1422
My kids love that playground. Sure you hold your breath when you see them from
afar (no parents allowed in) messing around with a sharp saw, but it's worth
it. A great space.
------
eitally
For anyone in the bay area, I found a playground with adult sized monkey bars
a few weeks ago. You know, the old school steel pipe structures from the good
old days.... Some kind soul even place-marked it on Google Maps. I present,
the Kennedy Middle School (Cupertino) Monkey Bars:
[https://www.google.com/maps/place/KMS+Monkey+Bars,+Cupertino...](https://www.google.com/maps/place/KMS+Monkey+Bars,+Cupertino,+CA+95014)
------
jeffrallen
My yard is an adventure playground. My kids' favorite toys are things they dig
out of the dump each Saturday morning (and which I sneak back into the dump
the next weekend).
------
aidos
I’m going to a festival next weekend where they have a building area for the
kids. They give them wood, nails hammers and saws and set them free. It’s just
awesome.
~~~
trophycase
Do you have a link or a name? I'm interested in hearing more.
~~~
aidos
Elderflower fields in Sussex (England). There’s not a whole lot of info at the
below link, but it’s one of the great many things going on - which is
basically kids stomping around in the woods having a lovely time.
[https://www.elderflowerfields.co.uk/2019/woodland-
tribe/](https://www.elderflowerfields.co.uk/2019/woodland-tribe/)
Edit: better link of the people that organise it
[https://www.woodlandtribe.org/](https://www.woodlandtribe.org/)
------
kissgyorgy
This came to my mind about this:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seWHLTt3oNQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seWHLTt3oNQ)
First, I was surprised, then I read the comments.
~~~
Lowkeyloki
What do the comments say? Only one is in English and that's the only language
I can read.
------
dillonmckay
So, I remember in preschool, we were allowed to play with hammers, nails, and
pieces of scrap-wood.
I tried to build a miniature wrestling ring with four nails, some rubber-
bands, and a square piece of wood. I hit my thumb alot.
------
winrid
I love it!
This is basically the environment I grew up in for a good portion of my life
(and I'm so happy for it).
------
bryanrasmussen
Ok I'm in Denmark, so also in the EU - can it really be that in our socialist
paradise playgrounds are more dangerous and less boring than in the US?
I can't remember the playgrounds from the US very well anymore but thinking
about it yeah most places I went to were pretty cookie cutter, but I'm also
old so I think the boring part is maybe not directly correlated with safety.
Here is a company that makes playgrounds in Denmark
[http://monstrum.dk/en/](http://monstrum.dk/en/) I have several of them in my
area. I just wonder if there is really less of a focus on safety in Denmark of
all places. And if so, why?
on edit: fixed typo
------
iamtheworstdev
why do all of the photos look fake?
------
umvi
You're right - anything that provokes fear or outrage gets instant attention.
Everything else doesn't.
North Korea imprisoning a single idiot American who crossed the border =
national dialogue because it's outrageous
School shooting where 3 people die = national dialogue on gun control because
it's outrageous.
DUI accident that kills a family of 5 = small blurb in local news because it's
not outrageous (even if it should be).
Thousands of people dying from obesity-related health issues = crickets
because it is not outrageous.
~~~
seanmcdirmid
> School shooting where 3 people die = national dialogue on gun control
> because it's outrageous.
I'm sorry, what country is this? The one I live in its just "thoughts and
prayers" when that happens.
~~~
bargl
I do not understand the attack on "thoughts and prayers." There are plenty of
people sending "thoughts and prayers" who also support gun control. I get that
it calls out the hypocrisy of Christians who don't support gun control, but it
also seems like an overly broad attack.
What does someone who both believes gun control is necessary and wants to send
"thoughts and prayers" do? I think the idea of gun control is a target at a
solution while thoughts and prayers are meant to console the individual.
Anyway, it's just something I found super annoying. I had someone who I know
lost a loved one (not due to guns) and I struggled with what to say. It's a
simple thing, but I realized I didn't know how to attempt to console someone
anymore.
~~~
TimTheTinker
> hypocrisy of Christians who don't support gun control
I don't see how the two equate to hypocrisy. A friend of mine (a Christian) is
strongly opposed to gun control. He has a concealed carry license and carries
everywhere, because he wants to have the means to protect himself and his
loved ones from an active shooter, if necessary. He cites "if guns are
outlawed, only outlaws will have guns," and feels personally affronted by gun
control legislation.
That, and he prays regularly for others. I for one would not accuse him of
hypocrisy on that basis.
~~~
free652
If there are no guns then outlaws wouldn't have them.
~~~
coding123
That's not what he said. If guns were OUTLAWED, not if there were no guns.
------
ausbah
I am frankly appalled how some people in this thread appear so nonchalant
about willing to accept the deaths of children in the name of letting a
majority of kids "have the right kind of fun".
~~~
leetrout
I don’t get that vibe. I’m not sure of your age or if you’re a parent but
there’s some recent writing in “Coddling of the American Mind” where they
speak about making the road for the child instead of the child for the road
and how that’s influenced adolescents today and their lack of maturity in
college and beyond.
It’s terrifying to think about something happening to my daughter but I know
if I don’t give her the opportunity to learn about responsibility and safety
on her own I’m not doing my job as a father. Having a playground or similar
option (hiking trails, rustic camping, etc) to explore this is a plus and IMO
part of what we need in society and less safetyism.
~~~
djsumdog
That's exactly the book I thought of when I saw this article. I think he
mentions this type of playground in the book.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Why walking makes you a better worker - pseudolus
http://www.bbc.com/capital/story/20190304-why-walking-makes-you-a-better-worker
======
crooked-v
Begin the countdown to businesses installing treadmills at every desk.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: ZFS on FreeBSD vs. expensive NAS for 100 TB backup over NFS? - reacharavindh
Fellow HNers!
I have a chance to upgrade our backup server that is an aging NetApp Filer costing us big money.
Is it a good idea to setup FreeBSD-ZFS on Directly attached JBODs and use it over NFS?<p>Or are there any practical reasons I should look into enterprise NAS vendors(NetApp, EmC etc al)?<p>I imagine the server and disks I'd buy would come with support, and I can replace them as needed. It's usecase is stupidly simple:
4 NFS mount points to a single host that rsyncs our primary storage every night.
One backup admin user and nothing fancy.<p>Any experiences, suggestions before I step into building this thing?
======
zwerdlds
Programmer's opinion here: I'm not a sysadmin, just like to do light HomeLab
style hobby work at home.
I can't provide a counterpoint for why you might consider a proprietary NAS,
but I can tell you that I'm 90% sold on FreeNAS. I've built two servers
running them from commodity hardware and never once had a problem with it.
I use rsync to backup to my older NAS no functioning specifically for that
purpose. It's a ReadyNAS x86. I moved away from that because I wanted more
functionality and redundancy.
I've had 2 drive failures on 5-disk setup. Live rebuild in degraded status
worked as well as it should have. I also use the SSD caching feature which
sped things up a bit for frequently used files.
My only qualm about the product is that whole versioning fiasco. I actually
almost got bit by it while building a server for my parents, but the install
wouldn't take so we used the older version. But by the grace of luck we didn't
use the bad version.
I use separate hardware for my service host which talks over NAS. I just use
the FreeNAS boxen for storage. Learned that lesson!
~~~
reacharavindh
Thanks for the comment. I'm a sysadmin albeit only recently changed into this
role. FreeNAS was my first choice when I thought about building this solution,
however, instinctively, it feels over engineered for my needs. Sure, if I want
a NAS with GUI, Jails and running VMs etc, I'll run to FreeNAS. But, I'd like
a minimal core (FreeBSD + ZFS + NFS + rsync) which lowers the failure surface.
I will write a few scripts to keep an eye on the health of the server, and
that'll be it.
Good to know that your NAS survived a 2/5 disk failure.
~~~
DKnoll
While I would personally prefer FreeNAS (or just to roll my own), remember
that you're supposed to be planning for the next person in your position.
Sometimes a commercial appliance really is the best way to go. If you do roll
your own or set up FreeNAS you need to build lots of docs and make sure
they're stored somewhere the next guy will find them.
Ultimately it depends on the company, it's just a compromise I have had to
make before so I thought it worth mentioning.
~~~
reacharavindh
Good point. I'm thinking of this custom solution only because of the
simplicity of this requirement(NFS backup). I'm planning to prepare a thorough
documentation of what I did to build this solution and how to maintain it.
------
nailer
There's a storage startup that posts their hardware designs openly on here. I
forget the name though.
Edit: [https://www.backblaze.com/blog/open-source-data-storage-
serv...](https://www.backblaze.com/blog/open-source-data-storage-server/) Cost
is $0.036/GB
Alas it's ext4. You could do XFS if you want something in the mainline Linux
kernel with a long history, btrfs or ZFS-on-Linux if you're happy with one or
the other, or just run ZFS/BSD as you mention if you've got BSD skills.
Edit: I know it's not the done thing on HN to complain about downvotes, but
why on earth would anyone downvote an entirely informational post?
~~~
bradknowles
With respect, Backblaze can’t be used as a NFS server replacement.
It’s fine if you want to use them for storing backups with their proprietary
protocol, or use S3-style bucket storage on their B3 service, but that is
totally not the same thing.
~~~
nailer
It's principally a hardware design. You can use it with whatever software you
like.
~~~
bradknowles
Take a close look at that hardware design — it is very much intended to be
used exclusively for the purpose it was designed for, with their proprietary
HTTP application on top. They are tightly coupled — it is very hard to
separate the hardware design from the software that would be running on it.
If you were to design a more generally useful storage server, it would look a
lot more like the FreeNAS or TrueNAS boxes than it would the Backblaze boxes.
------
olavgg
The biggest reason going for an enterprise vendor is support! As long you pay
them big money you will get something that just works without worries. If
something should go wrong, they will be on your door ASAP and fix the problem
for you. Very convenient.
If you have expertise and is willing to do self support, creating your own DAS
may be fine. Just keep in mind though, that things can go really wrong at the
worst time when you are busy with something important.
A lot of businesses do bad resource management and don't do proper planning.
This can hurt you.
Because we think most major storage vendors are way too expensive for us, and
we don't have resources for self support, we have landed on using Aws S3 and
Aws Glacier.
At home I've been running a FreeBSD ZFS system for 8 years. Oh boy I have had
many issues over the years because of bad hardware, cheap SATA cables,
consumer grade SATA controllers, consumer grade network cards, consumer grade
hot swap bays, consumer grade motherboards. But now I use only enterprise
stuff, except from the hard drives, which has been very stable for the last
two years.
~~~
reacharavindh
True. This is the reason why our primary storage is an Isilon cluster
supported by EMC. This is something we can't afford to have downtime with.
The NAS I was asking about is a passive backup server. If something goes wrong
and ZFS asks me nicely to do do a clean boot or a scrub, we'll be perfectly
okay. Even if it is down for a few days, we can catch up from snapshots on the
primary storage.
Good point about going for enterprise grade hardware instead of putting
together cheap parts. Duly noted. I will buy a decent server with good support
and lots of ECC memory.
------
sandreas
I recommend taking a look on borg backup
([https://borgbackup.readthedocs.io/](https://borgbackup.readthedocs.io/)) or
restic ([https://github.com/restic/restic](https://github.com/restic/restic))
instead of rsync... and use snapshots for zfs.
~~~
reacharavindh
I use BorgBackup for backing up my personal website (in the order of a few
MBs) to learn. But, my use case in this quest is to build a long-term backup
solution that we can rely on. (10 years+). My concern is Borgbackup being
updated so frequently and being actively developed to add more features. What
is the chance that I can read a backup that I make today 10 years from now? I
do NOT want to maintain a directory full of borgbackup binaries of different
versions just to be able to access older backups. Same goes with running
unupdated version of Borgbackup for 10 years.. Hence my interest to keep
things stupidly simple with NFS --> ZFS server.
~~~
sandreas
Well, that is understandable... but i think, that rsync has major drawbacks:
No history - overwriting means destroying (e.g. ransomware) || No
deduplication - restic transfers blockwise and only once || No encryption -
access to backup means access to all data || No error protection - how to
verify backup success?
In my opinion a good backup should contain a verified restore strategy :-)
You should also consider sending and receiving snapshots, when using zfs
([https://docs.oracle.com/cd/E18752_01/html/819-5461/gbchx.htm...](https://docs.oracle.com/cd/E18752_01/html/819-5461/gbchx.html)).
Zfs also supports deduplication, but FreeNAS devs do not recommend using it
unless you have a massive amount of RAM and you know what you are doing.
------
sandreas
Well, if not FreeBSD, you could take a look at OmniOS
([https://omnios.omniti.com/](https://omnios.omniti.com/)). There also is a
project with a web based administration for this os called napp-it, that could
be used as is or, in your case as "minimal installation reference guide"
([http://www.napp-it.org/index_en.html](http://www.napp-it.org/index_en.html))
~~~
reacharavindh
Looks very interesting. However, I'm not familiar with Illumos/OmniOS to begin
with. Even though ZFS is still ZFS, I'd be concerned about dealing with
operation of an OS that I'm not familiar with. I've played with FreeBSD for a
few years, and I know its community help is great along with the wealth of
StackOverflow responses. I'd try OmniOS for a smaller scale private project to
learn it.
------
phil21
This is a perfect use case for ZFS. We run a number of ZoL (ZFS on Linux)
filers in various backup/archival roles, and the cost savings and flexibility
are great. These range in size from about 100TB to 1.6PB.
Since you are a single dev with limited experience with this, hopefully I can
think of a few common gotchyas.
1) Many disagree here, but I do not think ZFS is ready to run as primary
storage for say backing a vmware cluster. We've tried in the past, and there
are far too many "reboot the server" style bugs when you get into heavy load.
Many have been fixed, but simple things like certain types of drive failures
ZFS on FreeBSD still can have issues. We've even experienced this on
IllumOS/Nexenta as well. Data integrity will let you sleep at night, but don't
expect 100% availability comparable to a Netapp or the like. This is why we
use ZFS in a backups/archival role only, where 100% availability is not
required.
2) Understand your I/O needs and how that will impact your choice of mirrored
vdevs over raidz(2) vdevs. You will likely not get the space efficiency you
are mentally calculating either, which is something to keep in mind. I'd take
a look at the raidz efficiency calculations[0] and keep in mind you should
never fill a zpool beyond 90% capacity or so.
3) Shouldn't need to be said - but run ECC memory. RAM is cheap, buy a lot.
4) For rsync based backups (assuming backing up actual user directories and
such) you will have potential for a lot of small file writes. I do suggest a
small SLOG (write cache) ssd for these cases, as random writes against a raidz
vdev consisting of spinning rust can be rather slow. I don't see a reason for
any l2arc (read cache) here.
5) You're doing a one-off. Do not go exotic on the hardware. I recommend a
standard 1U server with the LSI HBA of your choice, connected to an
appropriately sized SAS JBOD enclosure. We've had good luck with both HGST
4U/60 drive units, and Supermicro 4U/45 drive units depending on the density
we need and if top-load is a good choice for a particular facility. I suggest
avoiding top-load as your first deployment, assuming you are not space
constrained. There are plenty of VARs out there who can give you a pre-
packaged deal.
6) Due to the way ZFS stripes over vdevs, it's better to build out capacity
up-front vs. add later if performance is a concern. This is likely much less
of an issue for your use-case but is important for planning. For example if
you know you will need an additional 100TB in 12mo, buy it all at once and add
it to the pool day one. Don't trickle in new vdevs 8 spindles at a time.
7) This is probably the largest pain point for ZFS right now - you will have
to build tooling to properly monitor and administer it. This isn't hard, but
is something to very easily forget or have break and not notice if you're a
single man "ops" team as your second responsibility. Remember to monitor zpool
space usage and to alert early to add capacity. Stuff like a hot spares while
getting better I wouldn't trust to automatically Just Work(tm) yet, so ensure
you have robust drive/pool health monitoring.
8) Snapshots! Remember to use them, they are magic. znapzend is a decent tool
for getting schedules going.
9) Sounds like you won't need it now, but zfs send/receive combined with
snapshots are one of those life changing technologies like Tivo I don't think
I could live without these days.
Overall ZFS is great, if you enjoy a little hacking this should be a fun
project for you.
Edit: links, woops.
[0]
[https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pdu_X2tR4ztF6_HLtJ-D...](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pdu_X2tR4ztF6_HLtJ-
Dc4ZcwUdt6fkCjpnXxAEFlyA/edit#gid=804965548)
------
twunde
I'm just going to put this out there since we're discussing ZFS. There's an
open ZFS conference in Norwalk CT in April: [https://www.eventbrite.com/e/zfs-
user-conference-2018-ticket...](https://www.eventbrite.com/e/zfs-user-
conference-2018-tickets-38008213590)
------
myrandomcomment
ixsystems.com
Makers of FreeNAS/TrueNAS. Good team. Great support.
------
touchofevil
I was thinking of using FreeBSD for a large filer as well, but then I learned
that you can run ZFS on Ubuntu, which should have better driver support than
FreeBSD (at least I would think so). So you may want to consider Ubuntu with
ZFS instead. [https://www.howtogeek.com/272220/how-to-install-and-use-
zfs-...](https://www.howtogeek.com/272220/how-to-install-and-use-zfs-on-
ubuntu-and-why-youd-want-to/)
~~~
rleigh
"Better" is a little subjective. Linux has more drivers, true. But you only
need one driver, for the HBA you use, and is the quality of that one driver
better? I bought an LSI HBA specifically because the FreeBSD driver for it is
known to be good (and it also works well with Linux).
Drivers aside, ZFS on Linux is rather more rough around the edges than on
FreeBSD. Having used both, I'd place more trust in ZFS on FreeBSD. While I've
not had dataloss on either platform, I have seen odd glitches on Linux which
required rebooting to resolve, like zpool getting stuck in D state after some
pool operation, and it failing to mount filesystems after rebooting until I
manually reset the mountpoints for little reason I could see, and excessive
memory usage which has frozen the machine on a few occasions when under heavy
load. It's also rather more featureful on FreeBSD; the Linux implementation
has a number of annoying restrictions and missing functionality which aren't
essential for the basics, but make it much more pleasant to use. Like not
requiring root, priv delegation, NFSv4 ACLs, NFS export, ARC integration into
the kernel memory management.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: I'm a chronic procrastinator – how do I break it? - procastatron
For as long as I can remember I have been a super procrastinator. However, I'm also pretty smart which helps me fake it so that no one else notices. I think part of my problem might be that I grew up with an entitlement complex as I was valedictorian, near perfect SATs etc. and I never did shit in high school.<p>Now that I'm in the real world it's starting to really gnaw at me. I make $130k as a 21 year old and I probably put in 3 hours of real work a day. I'm a good enough programmer that I can bullshit my way through most stuff and at this point I think people are starting to realize that I'm a bit slower than I could be. I still push out a lot of code, but I secretly spend 7-8 hours a day doing bullshit at work (reading online, games, etc). I know that I've been given a gift and that I'm a fucking idiot for wasting it, but I've just become a chronic procrastinator and it sucks.<p>I could be changing the world but instead I'm putting in the bare minimum and no matter what trick or method I try I can't seem to beat it. I've never had a strong willpower to begin with and now it seems to be getting worse (looking back I wish I played more sports).<p>Any advice on how you taught yourself to focus on tasks, build willpower, and get shit done would be helpful. Although, I wonder if I really fucked my brain/habits up so much that I'll never reach my full capacity. I've been like this for the past 6-7 years and it doesn't seem to be going away anytime soon. My dad is also very similar in that he's smart enough to bullshit through life but he only works at 10-20% of his full capacity and he never completes anything.<p>Help!?
======
nsxwolf
If you believe the stats on worker productivity that get tossed around here, 3
hours a day of solid work isn't terrible.
I have one piece of advice - one technique that I got from a cognitive
behavioral therapist that helped me. It's pretty simple:
Pick a task you don't feel like doing. Set a timer. 10 or 15 minutes. Work on
the task. Do not worry about the end result, or getting to a "good stopping
point" or anything. When the timer stops, stop working on the task. Play
another game or watch another YouTube video or something. When you feel like
it, set the timer again and repeat.
The trick is that if you aren't worried about finishing the task you want to
do, you can do the work without that feeling of discomfort and dread that
makes you want to stop and distract yourself with something else.
The first time I did this technique, it was actually with dirty dishes and not
work. I used to let them pile up because I just couldn't deal with it. I set a
timer for 5 minutes and washed the dishes. It was a carefree experience. I
walked away at the end, but then something funny happened - I soon wanted to
go back for another 5 minutes. Pretty soon I finished the whole load of dishes
and it wasn't unpleasant at all.
~~~
procastatron
I did try FocusBooster for a while and now I'm trying Pomodoros. I think my
problem is that I try to go hardcore with it at first and work for a solid 10
hours. Then I burn out from it and don't work for the whole rest of the week.I
like the idea of going back to video games or whatever on a more short term
basis.
~~~
yaddayadda
There was a famous marshmallow experiment out of Stanfard looking at self-
control. It's been followed with many other related studies. One recently had
two groups of students do a mental task (if my memory serves, one group had to
add or memorize 2-digit numbers, the other group had to add or memorize
7-digit numbers). As the students left the cognitive activity area, they were
offered a snack and could choose between fresh fruit or chocolate. The
students with the easier cognitive task more often than not chose the fresh
fruit, while the students with the harder cognitive task tended toward the
chocolate. Again, if memory serves, it was a pretty strong correlation.
The points being, (a) at any given moment we have a limited amount of self-
control, and (b) that limited amount of self-control extends beyond any single
given task or situation.
We can increase our overall self-control (e.g., focusing for five minutes can
be increased to focusing for five hours), but not significantly in a short
period of time (e.g., it might take years to increase a persons ability to
focus from a five minute period to a five hour period.
~~~
san86
you are probably talking about this:
[http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405274870347870457461...](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703478704574612052322122442.html?mod=article-
outset-box)
------
mduerksen
> it's starting to really gnaw at me
Good.
One concrete suggestion:
Develop the following habit. Whenever you are confronted with an unpleasant
task X, there is a moment where your mind starts searching for other, more
pleasant things to do. This is the moment where you have to implant the habit
of asking - not yourself, but an imaginary judge:
"If I defer task X, will it become easier later?".
For some tasks, this may be true (e.g. taking out the trash is easier when
you're heading outside for work anyway). For most, it's not. Use this question
as an arbiter and follow its verdict.
And when you completed an annoying task, rejoice in the feeling of relief and
accomplishment (maybe not the task itself was hard, but overcoming the
unpleasantry was), and remind yourself of this feeling the next time. Rinse
and repeat.
One more abstract suggestion:
You have probably heard it a thousand times from your teachers, parents etc. -
"You could accomplish so MUCH, if just you would STRIVE for it..." You believe
it yourself, talking about your "full capacity".
But it's not true. Or at least it's the wrong perspective, allowing for
wishful thinking.
The current state you are in - that _is_ your full capacity. More you do not
know, because more you have never tried. Or, more drastically: More you do not
have, because more you have never proved.
Maybe that's even the reason you are not improving your chore-handling
abilities after all (if you allow me this unfounded speculation): You are
afraid of hitting your limit (a.k.a. failing) to soon, realizing that you're
not that capable after all.
Luckily, there is no such thing as a fixed, inate _capacity_. Your capacity
will definitely improve when you start taking yourself seriously and stop
generously sparing yourself the chores. Prove it to yourself what you really
_can_ do.
It always risky to advise a person you never met, so take this with a grain of
salt. Hopefully it's useful to you.
~~~
skrebbel
> > it's starting to really gnaw at me
> Good.
I'm not sure whether that is good at all. Of course, we're all different, but
what worked for me was quite the opposite of this: I learned to accept myself
the way I am.
Like you, I've grown up being the smartest of the class. Other people had to
sweat and I could just sit it all through. A result was decent grades and a
complete lack of discipline.
If I'd be me, but with more discipline, I'd probably be doing my work better
and faster. Maybe I'd be more successful, by some measure of "success". But
that's not me. That's somebody else. In fact, that somebody else doesn't
exist. With my "lack of discipline" come other traits that most super-
structured people don't have. Creativity comes to mind. I'm also very well
informed because I look around on the net a lot for stuff that interests me,
such as open source libraries. My colleagues are often amazed that I know
these things - all they know is what they learned in that .NET 4.5 class half
a year ago. I'm sure you recognize this, becausr you wrote something along
similar lines in a comment further down this thread.
This is you. People are willing to pay you a big salary for something that you
only effectively work on around 3 hours a day. That's _nice_. There's nothing
wrong with that. Other people work harder than you, maybe you work smarter
than some.
There's a chance that there's someone out there who's just a smart as you,
just as creative, and _also_ very disciplined. I doubt it, but that's
possible. Accept that. You were the smartest guy in your class, but you're not
the best-performing person in the world. That's fine. Nobody's perfect, and
neither are you.
Once you accept this, once you embrace your lack of discipline, you can let it
work for you. Yeah, yeah, some days maybe you didn't work on that thing you
said you were going to work on during the morning stand up, but you might've
very well done something much more valuable.
It's very difficult to grow if you're completely unhappy with where you are
now. Try to be happy about what you got (difficult, I know), and _then_
continue. It'll be easier.
~~~
mduerksen
Your work-life is only one area where self-discipline comes into play. If you
are content with just earning enough money for living, that's fine. I agree
with you on that.
But a lack of self-discipline might hurt you in areas which are much more
serious.
If you keep avoiding hard talks with your spouse, eventually you will have a
problem.
If you do projects or activities with friends and always shy away from the
unpleasant or dirty work, you're not being a friend they can trust to really
go the extra mile with them. You will lose good friends over this. I
personally have grieved a good friend over this.
If you never put any planning and execution effort into your family
activities, there won't be any.
If you always keep away from doing mundane things like dentist visits, grocery
shopping, regular house cleaning, your kids will suffer for your laziness.
And, maybe the worst: If your kids happen to _not_ be overly gifted easy-
achievers, and you do not teach your kids that most goods things have to
worked hard for, then you have denied them a lesson their future life will
depend on.
~~~
Millennium
There is another thing to consider: if he's putting so little time at work
actually doing work, odds are his employers will not be so keen on continuing
to pay him that much money. "Just being who he is" is not an excuse they will
accept, nor, really, should they.
That's the ruthlessly-pragmatic reason to not "accept this side of who he is":
nobody else is going to, especially not the people who pay him.
~~~
danenania
It depends. A gifted and creative programmer may be able to accomplish in 3
hours what takes an average programmer 10, or by coming up with a creative
approach to a problem, may be able to accomplish in 3 hours what an average
programmer simply cannot do at all.
So while a manager may dislike that they perceive someone to be slacking off,
it doesn't necessarily mean the person isn't providing a lot of value to the
company. Value produced and hours worked are fairly loosely correlated for
knowledge workers.
If you were running a startup, would you rather have 12 focused hours per day
from a mediocre programmer or 2 from Linus Torvalds?
~~~
procastatron
But at the same time, it seems unless there's a physiological difference in
people like me, we should be able to condition ourselves into working more.
What I'm doing with my extra time is not productive by any measure and
although it makes me really good at producing random facts at dinner
parties....I can't see much else gained by the time I waste.
~~~
skrebbel
>we should be able to condition ourselves into workin more.
Very disciplined people might be able to. You can't discipline yourself into
being more disciplined. Accept that first.
~~~
Millennium
Except that it is, in fact, possible to instill discipline in a person. Armies
the world over do it by the hundreds.
------
tehwalrus
Willpower is a muscle, which uses the same resource as brain tasks
(programming, arguing)[1] - let's call it "cognitive energy".
1) don't waste cognitive energy on silly tasks (games, arguing in comment
threads, etc.)
2) practice exercising willpower - it's a muscle, you can train it to be
better. Start by forcing yourself to complete a routine every morning (the
trick with habit forming is to not give up after you miss a day.) examples of
habits to form below.
3) look into mindfullness meditation[2] - this can help you identify
distracting thoughts as they arrive and practice ignoring them.
Meditating is a good habit to form as practice, and it will also help you get
better at habits. You could also exercise on a schedule (and record when you
do, including how heavy you lifted/how fast you were running). Eventually,
with a stronger willpower-muscle, you'll be able to choose the fruit salad
over the cake, even when you've just spent your 7.5 hours a day coding.
I've not found pomodoro to work for me as an easily-distracted person, it's
better when you're prioritising work tasks (e.g. 25 code vs 5 email) and even
then, 25 mins is too short for good programming "flow".
This is a hard problem, everyone has trouble with it. Good luck!
[1] [http://seriouspony.com/blog/2013/7/24/your-app-makes-me-
fat](http://seriouspony.com/blog/2013/7/24/your-app-makes-me-fat) (HN
discussion:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6124462](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6124462)
)
[2] [http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mindfulness-practical-guide-
finding-...](http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mindfulness-practical-guide-finding-
frantic/dp/074995308X) (US edition: [http://www.amazon.com/Mindfulness-
practical-guide-finding-fr...](http://www.amazon.com/Mindfulness-practical-
guide-finding-frantic/dp/074995308X) )
~~~
ideonexus
Just want to second the mindfulness meditation suggestion. On it's face, it
sounds like new age nonsense, but it's really a mental discipline where you
practice keeping your attention in the present. Not thinking about anything is
very difficult to do:
[http://ideonexus.com/2012/08/27/the-science-of-
mindfulness-m...](http://ideonexus.com/2012/08/27/the-science-of-mindfulness-
meditation-and-practice-for-the-rational-skeptic/)
I also recommend adopting an exercise routine in the morning. I find myself
much more productive and focuse during the day if I've gone for a 5k run first
thing when I wake up.
Also, consider installing parental monitoring software on your computer. I use
the Nanny for Google Chrome plugin to block access to news and other time-
wasting sites during the day or limit myself to 10-20 minutes of such sites a
day. It's easy to get around (I turned it off to post this comment), but it
serves as a reminder to stay focused:
[https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/nanny-for-
google-c...](https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/nanny-for-google-
chrome-t/cljcgchbnolheggdgaeclffeagnnmhno?hl=en)
Good luck, and don't beat yourself up over this. Perpetual distraction is
something I think we are all wrestling with.
~~~
jmagoon
Third for meditation practice. On a subtle level, the mind when distracted is
attempting to be somewhere else, and training in coming back to exactly where
it is now is a good way to work with your habitual behaviors
(procrastination).
Meditation changed everything about my life -- similar to the OP I also slid
by on smarts and not hard work, but started practicing meditation in college
due to general anxiety and went from a B- to A+ student--I didn't even work
longer, but just had more focus and mental stability on the task that I was
performing at hand, which ultimately allowed me to get more done.
Plus, once you're in the habit of applying some type of discipline that's not
about the end result (e.g. I always gave up on projects because I wanted them
to be amazing right off the bat) it becomes much, much easier to be willing to
put in non-grandiose, day by day drive necessary to accomplish /real/ things.
Put another way, when you pay attention to the details, suddenly that
overwhelming urge toward "greatness" or "brilliance" fades away, and you can
actually get things finished.
Agreed, don't beat yourself up about this. It's a very human problem, and even
recognition of your current circumstances is far and away above what many
people ever accomplish.
------
artagnon
I'll give you a no BS version.
Don't delude yourself into thinking that you're "talented" or "gifted". You're
a product of your history: if you spent a significant portion of your life
playing DOTA, you're a DOTA-head. In your case, you seem to have spent it
trying to get people to view you in favorable light. It's as simple as that.
You're missing the big picture: if you spend 3 hours writing code, and 8 hours
playing games, which activity do you enjoy more? Why is that? If you pick up
saw and find that you're absolutely terrible at sawing wood and cut yourself
multiple times, would you enjoy that activity? OTOH, if you go out and play
football (or something you've been practising for years), and manage to score
many goals for your team leading to victory, would you enjoy the activity?
Your discontentment arises from a simple mismatch between what you want to do
and what you are actually doing. You apparently wanted the $130k job with 3
hours of boring work, and to get by in life (or did some alien drop you into
this world while you were unconscious?). What is this sudden crisis about not
"changing the world"?
I have nothing to say of any significance, and the only "answers" I have are
tautologies. Maybe you can try attending some inspirational talks, reading
self-help books? No, I don't mean that with any condescension whatsoever;
figure out where you want to invest your time and invest it there.
~~~
mozboz
Absolutely agree with this. You're exhibiting the behaviour of someone in a
deep conflict because you're not doing what you really want to do, but
cultural and societal norms are forcing you to play out this role, and you're
getting enough rewards from it (monetary and psychological) to keep you in
this stasis of inaction.
There is no quick solution, as you can see from your father who has probably
battled with the same thing all his life too and millions of people who do
jobs they don't like.
You will not beat it because this situation is deeply and invisibly ingrained
in today's society, and you have none of the skills required to make the deep
psychological changes required.
If you want to give yourself a chance, you need to take drastic action. There
are two real choices:
1) Stay inside the system: Therapy. Understand yourself, understand the real
social and psychological landscape in which you're living and learn how to
make real changes.
2) Get outside the system: Drop out, reinvent yourself from the ground up.
Make a break, go meditate in India for a year, find out what it is you really
want and give yourself the space to do it.
~~~
procastatron
I think I've had this with everything though. Even things I really enjoy I
find myself procrastinating about
~~~
mozboz
There is no such thing as procrastination or avoidance.
To 'avoid' something you need to have something to avoid and a motivation to
avoid it, avoidance does not exist in and of itself.
My message still applies to whatever these new 'things you really enjoy' are.
If you are procrastinating over them, you are avoiding _something_ because of
_a reason_, and you'll need to do very hard work to find out what's going on
and the real context in which it's happening (option 1), or drop out, clean
the slate, and let yourself reinvent you (option 2).
------
fusiongyro
Your work seems to think that they're getting more than $130K of value for the
$130K they pay you. Why does it matter if it takes you 3 hours to do that and
not 8? Of course your employer would like you to believe you're defrauding
them because they'd rather get $260K of value out of you instead of, say,
$150K, but if you're not fired over it, the arrangement is working for them.
Every employer in this country would like their employees to feel as guilty as
you do, but you're not pulling a lever to make sprockets. The relationship
between your time and your value to the company is not directly proportional
to pressing keys in your editor. Our field is swamped with bad programmers
that spend all day making codebases worse. Some days when I'm not productive,
I have to remind myself that at least nothing got worse. The guy I replaced,
most days when he did any work at all, things got worse as a result. So if I
fail to accomplish anything, it's still better than an accomplishment from
someone who shouldn't have been doing this job but inexplicably was (and got
away with it for a year before being fired for reasons unrelated to
performance!).
By the way, 8 + 3 = 11 hours of work a day. Is it possible you're simply
burned out? I know you're 21 and probably don't feel like it can happen, but
it can.
~~~
procastatron
I usually am at the office for 80+ hours a week. It could be burn out, but
even when I reduce down to 40 hours I basically cut everything I accomplish in
half. Somehow my brain realizes what I'm doing and I procrastinate just as
much.
I have realized some other effects from burnout, but I think this
procrastination issue is something different entirely
~~~
fusiongyro
I'm surprised by that, but obviously you know you better than I do. Burnout
takes a long time to recover from.
If you get nothing else from my remarks, at least consider the possibility
that the real problem isn't procrastination, it's that you're too hard on
yourself.
~~~
procastatron
I don't agree with that. I have programmers that come in and do a solid days
work every single day. It might not be the best code, but I see them working
on it all day long.
It sucks because even though I'm accomplishing as much work as they are, I can
only do it for a few hours a day. I'm envious of their focus and ability to
actually get shit done. If it wasn't for them, I probably would be fired.
Although....even then, everyone else at this company loves me so much that I
don't think they could fire me.
~~~
fusiongyro
You're envious because you imagine that you could exceed them by a factor of
three if you could focus like they do, but there's no real reason to believe
that. Your peers with focus weren't like you, they didn't have a
procrastination "problem" to conquer.
The real world is not logic-driven. You admit you wouldn't be fired because of
your personality. Well, guess what: that's what keeps a lot of people
employed. All you're getting for your high expectations of yourself is
unnecessary pain.
Nobody complains about their coworkers being procrastinators. They complain
about their coworkers not getting shit done. You're getting shit done, so they
have nothing to complain about. Even better, they actually like you!
Your only real problem is that you aren't happy. There's no reason to assume
being productive will make you happy, apart from freedom from the guilt. This
should be liberating, because there are lots more solutions to the guilt
problem than procrastination, and they're a lot less like snake oil.
------
netcan
Me too.
Paraphrasing pg, going in to work and wasting 90% of your time is like getting
uncontrollably drunk at lunch. It's very bad habit/behavior/addiction. So
first of all, take it seriously.
Here's some things that work/have worked for me, in no particular order. They
all interact and work best in bunches. None have cured me. All have helped.
1\. meditation - many meditation practices develop your ability to prevent
your mind from wandering. Letting your mind wander is a big part of
procrastination. It also helps with patience which is also important.
2\. Recognize the impulse and address it - This is very complimentary to
meditation. You sit down to do a task, then your mind looks for some sort of
procrastination (reading, games). Recognize that feeling and feel it. Don't
fight it, just experience it for a few seconds. Then place your hands flat on
your desk. Your feet flat on the ground. Straighten your back. Breath deep 5
times. The impulse should pass. Tweak this as you like as long as you
recognize the impulse, experience it & have a little ritual (sitting straight,
breathing, etc.)
_This sounds like hippy dippy bullshit said out loud, but it doesn 't feel
half as lame when you do it. It is very effective._
3\. Collaboration - If two people are at a computer, procrastination does not
go on for hours. More generally, try to seek out work less procrastination-
inducing.
4\. Do work in small batches - Take 5 minute breaks every hour. etc. This
increases the feedback to you that you are procrastinating.
5\. Talk about it.
6\. Accountability mechanisms - Your ability to hide is an enabler. Try timed
screenshots sent to a friend. Twice daily 2 minute confessional phone call to
a friend. Mirror your screen someplace it can be seen by everyone. Coaching
sessions. Lots of options. Quirky is ok.
7\. Drugs - ADD medication (eg ritalin) can help.
8\. Sleep - Less Sleep = More Procrastination. Maybe you need more sleep.
Maybe you need 10 hours. everyone is different. Try getting 10 hours for one
week and see if it helps.
~~~
Oculus
+1 For being able to admit the 'hippy dippy bullshit'. Sometimes that stuff
works best, even thought we hate to say so.
~~~
netcan
Strange how embarrassed I feel writing it down. Even weirder is that I feel
like recommending ADD medication legitimizes me recommending meditation and
breathing rituals. I actually find them complimentary.
~~~
vmarsy
Don't ADD medication looks like an easy way of not improving your willpower ?
You let an external mechanism do the work for you.
I think the author is in the right way :
>it's starting to really gnaw at me
tehwalrus's advices are really good, except for the 1st one.
> 1) don't waste cognitive energy on silly tasks (games, arguing in comment
> threads, etc.)
You should not focus on that, but on all the other points : Go do some sports
(Because you didn't do it in the past doesn't mean you're doomed not to do
some now) And when you do it, time yourself and push it a little bit more each
time (lifting stronger weights, running a bit faster, etc.). You don't need
some instructor to yell at you to do that, just by strongly thinking of the
idea of improving yourself (mentally and physically) will yield to incredible
results.
At the end, the " don't waste cognitive energy on silly tasks (games, arguing
in comment threads, etc.)" will happen without you paying attention to it :
You must not force yourself from not playing games, you just mustn't feel the
need to.
At work it's a bit different, if you feel you're still doing nothing, it would
really help you to remove distractions from you, as said in some blogs : block
websites that makes you unproductive from your work computer. When you feel
you need a break, just look at them on your tablet, if possible, by changing
of physical location, that will make you realize when you're not working, and
so you will say to yourself : "ok, time to get back to work".
If you stay at your computer desk all day it's harder to have this "time to
get back to work" kicking.
------
zwegner
> I know that I've been given a gift and that I'm a fucking idiot for wasting
> it, but I've just become a chronic procrastinator and it sucks.
As someone in a rather similar position (my life has been fucked up in so many
ways from procrastination), one tip I can give you is to get rid of this
mindset.
I feel horrible whenever I waste lots of time, looking back on how I spent my
day, thinking "what the hell is wrong with me?" But the thing is, that
attitude feeds much of the procrastination. I am an odd mix of being a total
perfectionist, and really lazy, so it turns out that whenever I'm faced with a
task that I don't really want to do, I'm quite adept at rationalizing ways to
avoid doing the task. I think about possible roadblocks, or pretty much
anything that would keep me from attaining my sought-ought perfection, and
knowing that I'll have the same strong negative reaction later on that I
always do, I just won't do it.
If you beat yourself up over procrastination, you're just subconsciously
teaching yourself to not even think about whether you're procrastinating or
not. Whenever you try and shift from unproductive tasks to work, it's much
easier to just stay with the short-term dopamine kick of reading the internet
or whatever, rather than dealing with harder decisions about what you need to
do in the long term to be happy. Yes, this is backwards. Your subconscious is
not very rational...
So, from my point of view, just do everything you can to recondition yourself
to not hate working, and to not hate procrastination either. Just try to feel
the bit of fulfillment you can get from writing code or whatever, basically
just getting your shit done. Have patience with yourself, infinite patience,
and know that it takes lots of work to get where you want to be, but it's
worth it. You're the only one that can do this.
BTW, if you're like me, a perfectionist to the core, consider that this comes
from a deep-seated insecurity, a part of your brain that tells you that you'll
never be good enough. At least, that's the way it is for me, and it's been
that way since my childhood, as far back as I can remember. On this front, I'd
just try to evaluate your emotional well-being in the most balanced and
unattached way possible. Get help if you feel like it. As others have
mentioned, meditation can be amazingly helpful here, and exercise too.
Unfortunately, they're both quite prone to being procrastinated on.
Good luck...
------
panic
_Although, I wonder if I really fucked my brain /habits up so much that I'll
never reach my full capacity._
There's no such thing as your "full capacity". What you're doing right now,
that _is_ your full capacity. Either accept that you're at your limit or
actually do something to prove you're not.
~~~
panic
It also helps me to look at this image:
[http://i.imgur.com/39U4k.png](http://i.imgur.com/39U4k.png). Each box is one
month of your life. There really aren't that many of them.
~~~
ks
Interesting image. I just made a quick tool for generating it here:
[http://lifeboxes.neocities.org/](http://lifeboxes.neocities.org/)
~~~
JHof
I've been learning to code lately and worked up something like this not too
long ago -
[http://mementomori.neocities.org/](http://mementomori.neocities.org/). Kind
of buggy and unfinished, but it works. Mine uses weeks rather than months.
------
dreeves
My startup is all about solving this problem!
[http://beeminder.com](http://beeminder.com)
It's specifically for lifehacking data nerds (so probably most people here on
HN) and the idea is to combine a quantified self tool with a commitment
contract. Specifically, you pledge (actual money) that you'll keep all your
datapoints on a "yellow brick road" to your goal and if you don't, we charge
you.
We integrate with various gadgets and apps like RescueTime and Trello and
GitHub (also fitness things like Fitbit but I guess this thread is more about
productivity-related motivation) so, for example, you can force yourself to
waste less time on Facebook or commit to GitHub more often, or enforce a
steady rate of moving Trello cards to the Done pile.
[repeated from a very similar Ask HN thread the other day:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6121572](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6121572)
]
~~~
crawfordcomeaux
Find some ADHD test users and then tell me how well you're solving this
problem. Your system seems like something I'd have to develop new habits to
use, which is an indication that you miss the point, like every other system
I've seen targeting people with ADHD.
~~~
dreeves
If you set up an automatic data source (as opposed to replying to the email
bot with datapoints, which for many things is not so bad either -- you're
already in the habit of checking your email) then I don't think you have to
develop new habits to use Beeminder. For what it's worth, we've been praised
on ADHD fora and know of users with ADHD who swear by Beeminder.
Note that we're not targeting people with ADHD specifically but akrasia in
general.
~~~
crawfordcomeaux
I applaud what you're doing, by the way. I didn't mean to attack or offend & I
apologize for my tone earlier.
Based on what I've read in the past few months of my research, it seems as
though there's a subset of people with ADHD who don't have much success with
standard approaches. I don't have more information about that group, but I do
think I may belong to it. The theory I've developed about myself is that I
have a set of negative habits that reinforce each other and essentially make
up a sort of support system for themselves. An example would be habits that
contribute to disorganization also contribute to those related to poor time
management and vice-versa. I suspect that without a "proper" support system,
these habits can be overcome, but with only marginal success and only over a
long period of time. I'm building my own system to augment my support system;
it's meant to operate as a sort of digital nanny that I'm not able to ignore.
I'd love to talk to some of your ADHD users if you're willing/able to put me
in touch with them. I'm not trying to convince them to use what I'm building
(especially since it'll be a long while before it's available for others), but
just looking to understand their situations further and discover how Beeminder
has helped them. My email address is [email protected] if you'd like
to discuss further.
~~~
dreeves
Oh, wow, yes, "digital nanny" sounds very intriguing. Pinging you now! (And
thanks for kind words!)
------
TheZenPsycho
I don't like this thread. It implies that if you aren't a slavish worker, with
impervious metal discipline, you are /worthless/.
It's really hard binary thinking, which I guess is what I expect from here.
You guys are implying that _I_ am worthless. Completely worthless. That the OP
is worthless. And so, what now? Shall we all just jump off a cliff then?
I don't think so.
maybe there is more to life than being the hardest worker. Maybe it is okay to
have an internal mental life that is rich and varied.
AND MAYBE FRETTING ABOUT NOT GETTING STUFF DONE IS JUST GOING TO MAKE YOUR
PROCRASTINATION THINGS WORSE.
That's the trick. It's the mental chinese finger trap. You have to really
truly accept who you are and what you limits are, what you can accomplish, and
stop worrying so much about it. It is only once you have done this that you
can let yourself get things done. It is only once you can accept that it is
_okay_ to not get things done, that you stop fearing the failure, and getting
started doesn't feel like such a chore.
Failure is okay.
It is okay for other people to think you are worthless.
Just don't pay attention to it, stay in the now, put one foot in front of the
other, trudge on and on and on, you'll find your pace, you'll find how to keep
going, you'll get through the mental blocks. and you may never be as "good" as
/those other people/. And that's okay.
~~~
danso
You're projecting. The OP does not merely desire to work harder at his job,
but at better using his gifts to help change the world and better himself in
non-professional ways. I agree he's too young to be fretting about this like a
mid-life crisis...but nothing wrong with desiring to move faster while young.
It takes some foresight to realize that it's easier to change bad habits (and
learn new good ones) at a young age rather than pushing it off for later.
~~~
procastatron
This is my biggest fear. Having the same problems now at 40. I look at my dad
and as much as I swore I'd never let myself have his same work ethic (push
hard, than go at 1/4 pace for 90% of the time).
Reality is that I'm worse than I've ever seen him right now. I can go for a
few days without doing a single git commit. I have a team under me that makes
it look to my superiors as if shit is getting done. And when I need to I can
pound out really really good code and save the day.
Yeah...I need a therapist or something
~~~
TheZenPsycho
A therapist can be a great help. There's lots of other things that can help.
You'll get a lot of advice in this thread. Just to throw this out there, in
case nobody has mentioned it, I cannot emphasise enough the importance of
sleep for mental health, anxiety, and procrastination. You can do a lot of
stuff, and mostly it will be ineffective unless you have the solid 8 hours
every day as your foundation.
~~~
procastatron
Have more sex is easier said than done...
Also, I'm definitely going to get a therapist after this. Looked around and
found some area ones. I'll make an appointment "later" :)
~~~
TheZenPsycho
you make 130k, you have a whole team working under you, and you are 21 years
old, and you have trouble getting laid.
That's it, this guy is a troll.
~~~
rdouble
_you make 130k, you have a whole team working under you, and you are 21 years
old, and you have trouble getting laid._
That is the description of the entire SF tech industry.
~~~
TheZenPsycho
except for the people who work under him and make less money. Those don't
count as real people though.
~~~
rdouble
I didn't read him mention people working under him.
------
reactor
Are you sure you are a procrastinator? Chances are you are NOT.
I was also a _long_ time procrastinator (at least I believed) till I came
across this article [http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/28/opinion/sunday/why-
smokers...](http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/28/opinion/sunday/why-smokers-
still-smoke.html?_r=0) which is changing me (its only a week now)
As I said, you might not be a procrastinator, you may very well be a victim of
seeking short time pleasure at the cost of long term benefits.
Your impulse to read online, game for whatever time _wasting_ activity might
be giving you the short term kick/relief and keep doing them will cause the
task (which you think you OUGHT to do) to postpone later (or better, you are
not finding time to do them).
Read the article and think it through and reflect.
If you realize the actual problem, it is easy to break.
I'm doing it now. Its getting better, I can vouch.
Thanks A friend.
~~~
dreeves
What that article describes is exactly the philosophy behind Beeminder. Now
I'm dying to know what made you conclude that you _don 't_ have that problem
(known most generally as Akrasia, btw) and what lifehackery you're now using.
------
neurostimulant
I recommend "The Now Habit" book. I particularly like the "unschedule" trick.
Instead of scheduling works and ending up procrastinating, schedule for fun
activities instead and fill the unscheduled time with work. I'm not sure about
you, but I have flex working hours (I'm a freelancer) so I can get this trick
work for me.
[http://www.amazon.com/The-Now-Habit-Procrastination-
ebook/dp...](http://www.amazon.com/The-Now-Habit-Procrastination-
ebook/dp/B001QNVP7M)
~~~
praptak
+1. Software engineering trained me to go for root causes rather than
symptoms. As "get your shit together" books go, this one goes the deepest
towards the roots of procrastination. Actually it is time for me to re-read
it, I spend too much time on HN :-)
------
kstenerud
I had the same problem. The standard school program was easy enough to just
coast through, as were my first few jobs. At one point I was working on Monday
and goofing off the rest of the week.
What changed it? Probably some of it was age. Your outlook on life and what's
important changes as you get older. I spent a fair bit of time talking to
people 10, 20, 30, and 40 years older than me, and while I usually didn't
agree with them, I did remember their words. After 10 years I was rather
shocked at how my outlook had changed. Now it's coming up to 20 and I've
definitely changed yet again. How do you achieve the wisdom of age without
actually having to spend years aging? Beats me! But I sure learned to
appreciate it regardless.
Another thing that happened is I started taking on harder and harder things.
It didn't matter what, so long as it was difficult enough that it would take
me years to master. Boxing, welding, classical guitar, open source projects,
running a business. I just kept adding things on until I didn't have enough
time to even breathe. Then I somehow managed to find the time to get all these
things done. And then I piled on more, until I finally reached the point where
I literally did not have enough hours in the day to get everything done. Then
I dropped some stuff until I felt comfortable again.
Now I no longer have time for video games or TV (except for the odd time when
I'm taking a sanity break, which is maybe once a week for a couple of hours).
I have shit to do and a daily routine that gets it done. I had to organize my
life because I had too much stuff to do! Now I deliberately carve out time to
be with friends or do something crazy. Otherwise I'm busy at work, practicing
one of my hobbies, or I'm at home on a Sunday, deliberately doing nothing all
day because I've scheduled a "do nothing" day.
So my advice to tackle procrastination would be: Fill your life with so much
stuff that you can't afford to procrastinate (It's even better to get into a
few things you can't get out of easily). You'll figure out how to organize
yourself. Then you back off a bit to get some balance back into your life.
~~~
procastatron
I think your mindset might be a bit different than mine. Or at least my
current one. I have a ton of really challenging, awesome stuff to do. I just
have been conditioned to hate "work". I feel insanely good when I'm
procrastinating but get hit with an awful few hours later.
Whenever I put a shit ton on my plate, I do 0 of it. I know I should be able
to get it all done but the thought of "work" prevents me. I consume a shit ton
of information when I'm not working and as a result I'm actually really good
at given other people ideas. I gave my cousin an idea and drew up a business
plan that now nets him a very lucrative income on the side. I helped grow a
brand from 1k to 100k followers just by giving them social media advice and
some hacks I learned from observing Ryan Holiday and Tim Ferriss.
I'm great at giving others a push start and I've been told I'm a good
motivator. I just have low self confidence in some areas and suck at finishing
anything
~~~
read
You might be procrastinating for the right reason: that you are currently
working on things that are not that important.
If you were free to do anything in the world, what would that be?
------
hncomment
You're now afraid you're not as great as you've always thought (and they've
always told you).
By procrastinating, you avoid an honest reckoning of your talents and testing
of your limits. You can hold onto the idea of a certain kind of perfection, in
yourself and your potential work product, a little longer... and then scramble
to do something half-assed at the last minute.
If others then accept your results, you get the thrill of almost-failing but
can still entertain the idea you're so great you don't need to put in
sustained, honest effort. The essential-you still has the power to get away
with things that others can't! (You were probably very good at deceiving your
parents and other authority figures as a child.)
If your results are crappy, well, they're crappy only because of the
procrastination. The "real you" still has boundless potential and "could be
changing the world", it's 'just' the procrastination that's a problem. You're
already punishing yourself about that with your internal narrative, and
perhaps you even secretly hope others will finally give you negative
attention, too -- both for the thrill of actual-failure and the hope of a
confrontation that might force improvement.
You do have some awareness of the cycle you're in, and have tried a number of
things... but not with consistent follow-through or sustained improvement.
As a single 21-year-old making $130K, you could afford elective psychotherapy.
It'd help with rooting out the reasons you enjoy procrastination, and with the
follow-through on changing habits. (Much of the advice here is good... but
will you have a sustained relationship with the suggesters that helps evaluate
progress over months/years? For a price, a therapist can provide that.)
You might also eventually want a more competitive and intimate work
environment, someplace where you can't "bullshit your way through most stuff",
because others would notice and/or real project failure would follow, rather
than just continual muddling-through. (This doesn't necessarily mean over-the-
shoulder monitoring or no entertaining diversions... but high-enough demands
and close-enough collaboration that clock-killing shirking can't survive.)
Good luck, and be happy you're not this guy:
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pbjypn9JtKE](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pbjypn9JtKE)
------
brnstz
Don't worry about changing the world. If through your best efforts + chance,
you happen to change the world, that is great. But if you go through life
believing you are without value unless you do something grand, you've got a
99.99999% chance of disappointment.
You're 21. Want to play more sports? Play them. You haven't even reached your
physical peak. What, did you want to be a quarterback in the Super Bowl and
it's not worth playing sports unless you are? Welcome back to 99.99999%
disappointment.
You think that your procrastination and intelligence are unrelated. You think
you're horrible on the inside, but you "get away with it" because you're
smart. This is nonsense. You are bored. Maybe you didn't do the shit that was
assigned to you in high school, but the SATs are not a genetics test. You
learned it somewhere.
Don't feel guilty about the money you make. Don't think that you're a hamster
on a wheel and you're worth nothing unless you're going at 100% speed. If your
job doesn't give you enough work to interest you, be proactive and find some
inefficiencies that need fixing. Fix them. Don't wait for someone to tell you
to do it. After you fix it, tell everyone. If there isn't anything to fix, get
a new job. And... to go against the grain of HN, consider a large company, one
that has endless problems and technical debt. If you aren't happy in your own
skin, working on a startup to change the world is probably not the best thing.
Also, seriously consider going to a therapist to discuss your issues. I hear
that you can afford it. You're basically asking the internet to be your
therapist. And the internet is not qualified (on average).
------
agf
What you're describing sounds like a highly intelligent person with ADHD-PI,
aka ADD.
There are lots of techniques out there that can help, and medication can
sometimes be effective. Do some research online and talk to your doctor. There
are also people who specialize in helping / coaching people with ADD and
similar memory / attention deficits.
~~~
procastatron
I don't know if I'm highly intelligent. I'd like to think so but I also feel
like I'm really good at cheating the system. I can learn the basics of stuff
really fast and then bullshit through while I slowly pick up more advanced
things.
I've tried adderall but it almost became a game to see if I could beat it. I
would procrastinate even more than normal. Sometimes just stating at a wall
for hours at a time
~~~
jacques_chester
There are other drugs.
I was diagnosed with ADHD a few weeks ago. So far I've trialled ritalin and
dexedrine.
Ritalin works very well if I have a clear task.
Dexedrine made me tired, confused and aggressive.
The point is: different drugs work differently for different people. Trial
different ones. There are even drugs that have non-stimulant modes of action
now.
------
eatitraw
The "Feeling Good: The New Mood Therapy" book by David Burns is really good.
Here is the link: [http://amzn.com/B009UW5X4C](http://amzn.com/B009UW5X4C)
Chances are that you're depressed, OP. And even if you're not, the book is
related anyway: there is a chapter specifically on practical methods to beat
procrastination. I personally get mixed results: sometimes these methods work,
sometimes they don't -- though mostly because I fail to apply them
consistenly. I recommend this book because other(not related to
procrastination) cognitive techniques described in this book works great for
me.
10 days ago I invented my own personal method to beat procrastination(this
book influenced me btw). I am aware of the following things about myself:
\- Motivation comes after action: I don't particularly feel doing
something(hence procrastination), but once I start, it gets more enjoyable
after a short time
\- I like score-keeping in games(as many other people - no wonder game
designers employ scores!)
\- I am motivated if there is a reward.
So here is my method. I give myself one score point if either I stop
procrastinating(and proceed to do something meaningful) or if I feel an urge
to start procrastinating during some activity. I use a simple app on my
smartphone to keep total score(which is 113 as of now). I've set up the
following reward for myself: each 10 points = 1 visit to a restaurant(I enjoy
dining at restaurants but usually I am too lazy to go to one).
I've used this method only for everyday stuff like washing dishes, cleaning up
my apartment(which was complete mess), doing laundry, etc. Sometimes I award
myself 5 points washing particularly nasty dish, and sometimes I get only 2
points doing 30 minutes of cleanup. I was really surprised to see that my
invention works, and now I hope to use it for my job(like OP I am not fully
productive at it, there is room for improvement).
~~~
procastatron
I feel like I could have written this a few months ago. I tried something
similar but then fell right back in my normal routine.
Not saying it won't work for you. I've just become very doubtful of all the
"self help" methods as it's rare that I find long term evidence that it has
changed people's lives permanently. I read on average, 1-2 self help books
every week, I think they've helped me with certain areas of my life but
overall it hasn't fixed the root problem.
~~~
eatitraw
> I tried something similar but then fell right back in my normal routine.
Yeah, happens to me all the time. :(
> 1-2 self help books every week
Give "Feeling Good" a try then, I don't read as much books as you do, but I
think "FG" is a cut above the other books I've read. With the exception of
"When panic attacks(also by D. Burns). While it was only somewhat useful for
procrastination, I found this book extremely useful for other problems. The
main thing about this book is cognitive techniques, if you apply them(AND read
the book) then you gain 10x more value than by just reading the book.
And if you do find the book useful, you may find CBT therapist(which was
already suggested in this discussion). A friend of mine did so recently, and
she is much better now(though she was clinically depressed).
------
kybernetyk
What works for me: Watch other people work.
I tend to get motivated by those crappy History/Discovery shows (especially
the horrible Gold Rush Alaska). Binge watching that show helped me to get
through a project that got too big and too boring.
------
greenyoda
You didn't mention whether you find the work you're doing to be interesting or
boring. When I'm working on something boring or unpleasant I also tend to
procrastinate, but when I'm working on an interesting problem (sometimes even
tracking down an obscure bug qualifies as interesting), I get absorbed in what
I'm doing and don't get easily distracted.
If you find your work boring, have you considered looking for a job that's
more in line with your interests?
------
dylanhassinger
1\. DOWNSIZE. drastically reduce your commitments / todo list. Procrastination
is your subconscious brain's way of saying that it is freaking out with what's
on its plate.
2\. INTENTION. with the stuff that's left over, take a time out and truly
commit to it. Do meditation, quiet your brain, and make an honest decision
about what you're committing to.
3\. IMPLEMENTATION. now plan HOW you will get these committments done.
Visualize yourself actually doing the steps to complete it.
Putting all these together, check out this podcast where Pat Flynn shares his
technique of "small batches to completion":
[http://www.smartpassiveincome.com/most-powerful-
productivity...](http://www.smartpassiveincome.com/most-powerful-productivity-
tip/)
Also: Adderall / Modafinal / Cyclobenzaprine / Exercise can help quiet the
mind and bring focus :)
~~~
procastatron
I think too much shit is probably part of my problem. I say yes to everything
all the time and as a result I'm involved with literally every part of this
startup. I've definitely made myself a Godin lynchpin but people are starting
to lose faith in this silly wunderkinds ability to execute.
Meditation is a good idea. I tried getting into it, ended up reading up on
some weird sex meditation shit and went down the rabbit hole on that one. I
really think clearing my brain several times in the day would help me.
It's funny I've seen this list a hundred times but listed out here for some
reason it seems to make more sense.
Addy - hate how it kills my creativity and I try to beat it and convince
myself it doesn't work Modafinol - my favorite drug but I tend to stay up for
a long time and just procrastinate more. Would definitely be super helpful if
I can beat procrastination first CycloBenz - haven't tried, will order
I have found paracetam to be super helpful but it only works for a week or two
before khans to cycle off it. I was on it about 2.5 weeks ago and did in 4
days what I normally have been doing in a month.
I should start to exercise more...
~~~
com2kid
> I have found paracetam to be super helpful but it only works for a week or
> two before khans to cycle off it. I was on it about 2.5 weeks ago and did in
> 4 days what I normally have been doing in a month.
Try one of the many other racetams. Also noopept, closely related, helps a lot
of people.
For me, ALCAR and Stabilized R-ALA (R Alpha Lipic Acid) help a ton with focus.
If you drink caffeine take l-theanine along with it, it dramatically boosts
the effectiveness of caffeine and gives me a good 4+ hours of straight focus.
------
jhuckestein
I often struggled with this as well. When you go through life with practically
no effort and somehow achieve many things that are hard for others, it's easy
to feel guilty. Especially because most of our parent's generation lived their
lives diligently working 8 hours a day, advancing their career, eventually
settling down etc and that seems to be the expectation for us as well. I'd
just not worry about it and live your life the way you think works best.
One thing that helped me was to stop thinking "How can I get myself to work 8
hours a day?" and start thinking "What fun, useful things can I do with the 8
hours a day I'm not working.?" The only reason I read the internet and played
flash games all day was because I was supposed to be at my computer, working.
Overall that's a pretty low-fun and low-reward activity, though. If you accept
that you won't work more than 3 hours anyway, you can do much more
engaging/fun/interesting things with the rest of the time.
You mention that you wish you'd done more sports. Great, start doing sports.
With your income, you can easily get a gym trainer or trainer in any sport
you'd like to learn. Set yourself the goal to complete a mini triathlon next
year, join a recreational volleyball league or anything else you like. You can
also learn how to cook really well, enroll in a language school (for human
languages), volunteer to teach kids how to code, etc. Those are all things
that you'll probably enjoy and that I'm much less likely to procrastinate.
Learn how to play an instrument or sing (again, you can afford a teacher to
get off the ground) or pick up a hobby closer to your work like electrical
engineering. The possibilities are endless once you accept that you're not
"supposed to" work all day; unless you want to, and that day will come.
You can even take it one step further and just up and leave. Spend a few years
traveling every corner of the world and earn your keep with a day or two of
contracting each month. I know nobody who's done that who'd consider it a
waste of time in any sense of the word.
Hope this helps and best of luck. Don't be so hard on yourself.
------
Debugreality
Here is something I wrote on this previously -
Once upon a time I thought I was lazy. I'd sit in front of my computer at work
with the intention of working but something inside me just wouldn't let me. It
would make me feel so guilty and bad but no matter how hard I willed myself to
work I just couldn't make it happen. This didn't happen all the time,
sometimes I'd get caught up in my job and not have any problems. But it
happened often enough that it was a constant weight on my shoulders.
It turned out to be more a lack of encouragement and work ethic from my
childhood. It was a defense mechanism, it was a way of rebelling and trying to
get attention. Unfortunately it didn't fit into my adult life at all!
Many of us have old defence mechanisms and some of the most destructive ones
block our drive and inner motivation.
Maybe we got spoiled as a kid, never having to do any work for ourselves so
never learning the satisfaction of a job well done. We associate work with
something lower people do, maids, gardeners etc. But doing daily tasks can be
one of the most rewarding parts of the day.
Since I can't seem to find any good links related to this I'll go into some
more details on what worked for me.
Basically whenever I come across a block from something I learnt as a child I
use visualisation to relive what I would have preferred to learn. We can all
do this, go somewhere comfortable where you can relax and won't be disturbed
as this might bring up some strong emotions.
Now imagine back to the time when your defence behaviour was forming, when you
are little. Spend some time getting this idea clear in your mind. Feel little
again. Now imagine another you as you are today with your current
understanding of things meeting that younger you. Now what advise would you
tell your younger self, imagine your younger self views you like a big brother
or sister. Let the conversation flow naturally. Repeat until you can feel your
unconscious attitudes begin to shift.
The reason this technique really helps us is because behaviours we learned as
children arn't based on logic so simply understanding why you should be doing
something better doesn't get to that unconscious belief. The unconscious needs
to feel that emotional caring guidance to re-learn it's behaviours. Guidance
from someone you trust implicitly. By doing this visualisation we are becoming
our own parent in a way and that lets us re-learn these early lessons.
~~~
yoshgoodman
Thank you for this! Brought some perspective on why I have an intrinsic push
to want to fail.
------
ronyeh
Break tasks down into tiny chunks that are sooo easy that you don't need to
procrastinate to do them.
Then do them little bits at a time, and reward yourself for doing them.
See:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomodoro_Technique](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomodoro_Technique)
Lots of people procrastinate. I do too. Don't feel so bad about it. :-)
Or, find a new hobby (like playing guitar) and then procrastinate on that.
Spend time reading up on music, music theory, equipment... instead of reading
reddit. Maybe you'll learn something new with your time wasting?
~~~
procastatron
That's actually what I do most of the time. I got really god at Spanish
because I was procrastinating and to fight it I switched the language on every
"fun" site I was using to discourage me.
------
Hoffenheimer
I just finished reading Daily Rituals. It's a book about the work habits of
famous writers, composers, artists, architects, and the like. One thing that
caught my attention was how a lot of people we think of as great/prolific only
worked 3 hours a day or for 3 hours at a stretch with a long break in between
sessions. That number was very prominent throughout -- I don't remember the
exact figure, but it was quite a lot of people. Off the top -- Sartre, Ingmar
Bergman, Strauss, Mozart, Trollope, Thomas Mann, Carl Jung.
Trollope stands out for he had this to say, "All those I think who have lived
as literary men, -- working daily as literary labourers, -- will agree with me
that three hours a day will produce as much as a man ought to write. But then,
he should so have trained himself that he shall be able to work continuously
during those three hours."
That number might just be a biological limit. You might be working at full
capacity already and your brain "procrastinates" in order to recharge. It's
very difficult to tell when the brain is tired since you can't feel it, but
wanting to do other things -- specifically things that take less mental energy
like reading blogs/forums and playing games -- seems like a good signal of
fatigue.
One thing you can try though is to split up your day into different blocks and
focus on recharging in the time between those gaps. Say, do 3 hours in the
morning and 3 hours in the late afternoon and just completely relax and do
whatever the hell you want in the meantime.
------
logn
Log off all this crap on the internet now and get back to work. Stop reading
this thread and start asking someone to review the crap code you're writing.
And fill your vast amount of freetime at work actually doing something to
improve your company. They pay your bills so you can click keys and press
buttons. So stop pressing the wrong keys and start typing something productive
not posts like these. Also, stop reading all this stuff and start making
something.
~~~
nisa
Just stop beeing depressed. Just stop beeing sucidal. Just stop taking drugs.
Just stop drinking alcohol.
Would be great if the world would work this way.
~~~
logn
I know. My comment above is harsh and simplistic. But, I know it's exactly
what I would have wanted to hear, were I OP.
Also, I struggle with all the same issues and I know people I manage do too.
One actual thing that's helped is that we run semi-automated time tracking
software. I don't have a preferred tracking software yet, but something like
this looks good: [http://www.taskcoach.org](http://www.taskcoach.org) ...
There's nothing like stepping on the scale and seeing you're overweight to
know inspire you to lose weight. In the same sense, there's nothing like
finishing a hard 10 hour day with time tracking software and realize you've
only worked/billed 5 hours. It very quickly becomes a great positive
reinforcement. Pretty soon for me after using time tracking, when I take 10
hours for work, I get in about 8 or 9, which is pretty good.
Further, in my own life, becoming a freelancer and independent contractor is
the single choice I can point to that has drastically boosted my happiness and
productivity, which I think are tightly coupled for workers. I do better
working on my own schedule with no pressure to show up at certain times. And I
work from home. Remember that even though there's a time to buckle down and do
your best in your current situation, there's also a time to acknowledge that
you're not happy and to change your life, by say, taking a different job you
think you'll do better at. My $.02 obviously. But I hope that helps.
------
michaelfeathers
If you need to build up willpower to do things, you should be doing different
things. Find what you _want_ to do. You still may have a problem with
procrastination, but at least you'll be getting things done in a realm that
matters to you at a deep level.
The thing about "I could be changing the world" is more complex. That is one
hell of a monkey to put on your back. What are your hobbies? What do you
really enjoy doing? Yeah, maybe for where you are in life (young adult?) you
have that urge to change the world but channel it through a passion. Don't
even think about anything that furthers a goal, just pure enjoyment.
As a kid, the architect Frank Gehry played with blocks and he went back to
that _play_ when he found his work. When physicist Richard Feynman was burned
out, he stopped doing all physics until he saw a plate spinning in the air and
started to compute spin just for fun with no sense of a goal. It reconnected
him.
It seems like you are in a prime place to explore that base level of play
given your security in work. Do it and maybe you'll end up with what you want
to do. Then you can move away from the chores or put them into perspective.
------
beambot
Just channel the procrastination into something you like. I highly recommend
reading the Structured Procrastination essay:
[http://www.structuredprocrastination.com/](http://www.structuredprocrastination.com/)
------
gsharma
You should checkout this book -
[http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/95708.The_Now_Habit](http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/95708.The_Now_Habit)
~~~
Joeboy
I bought a copy, but haven't yet got around to reading it. True story.
------
adventured
I've personally found a variation of Marc Andreessen's index card concept very
useful. (couldn't find it on his blog any longer, so here's an archive.org
link)
[http://web.archive.org/web/20091019051014/http://pmarca-
arch...](http://web.archive.org/web/20091019051014/http://pmarca-
archive.posterous.com/the-pmarca-guide-to-personal-productivity)
I typically write down one simple goal each day for whatever project I'm
working on. Something that is easy to knock out, but meaningful. Day after day
of tearing up index cards of simple goals, and sooner than later you've
accomplished a lot while not worrying so much about drowning in the grand
scheme of things (I typically get overwhelmed / overloaded by having too many
things that need to get done).
------
Ensorceled
I use the following:
RescueTime + Beeminder: to track what I'm _actually_ doing so I can't trick
myself into thinking I'm more productive than I am. I have it set to 30 hours
a week of productive work. People think I'm a god damned freak of nature and
worth every penny they pay me if I average 30 productive hours.
I use the Pomodoro technique to stay focused. Once I get into the grove it's
kind of silly, I'll find I've been programming for about two hours and haven't
restarted the Pomodoro. But it IS a great way to cut short procrastination.
"I'll read HN after this 25 minute stretch..."
Depending on what I'm doing I have to have Twit.tv or music playing in the
background or I get bored and my mind starts wandering.
Make sure you dev environment is _fast_. Cognitive drift is your enemy.
------
chrisduesing
Out yourself. Show your boss this thread, ask for their help. Something is
likely to change one way or another. You will either end up being monitored
more closely, or fired. Either way you will have removed the giant cushion
that being fast and having no direct supervision provides.
------
MarkCancellieri
Long-term behavior-change is extremely difficult, but the strategy that I have
been experimenting with recently and having success with is context-sensitive
rules (commonly called "implementation intentions" by behavioral researchers).
The form of these rules is "if-then," although I often phrase them in a way
such that the "if-then" is implied.
For example, like you, I was procrastinating far too much at work. This was
driven mainly by two problems: 1) I'm somewhat addicted to the Internet, and
2) there are many things with my job that I'm either bored with or just
uncomfortable doing. The result was that I would procrastinate by going on the
Internet.
I finally decided to make a rule: "No non-work-related Internet at work." Or
in the "if-then" format: "If I am at work, then I will not use the Internet
for non-work purposes."
This rule has worked for me. It forced me to confront the discomfort that I
was having with the task at hand. I also try to focus on completing only one
particularly challenging or distasteful task that I have been procrastinating
on per day, and I try to do it first thing in the morning. The positive
feeling that it generates is amazing.
I have adopted other rules as well, such as to lose fat. I have a rule to only
eat during an 8-hour feeding window from 12PM to 8PM (intermittent fasting).
While I am at work, I also only eat a huge mixed salad (with grilled chicken,
hard-boiled eggs, and tuna salad) every single day. I don't allow myself to
use the vending machine or to eat goodies that people bring in or eat pizza on
Fridays (pizza day). When I'm not at work, I'm a little more flexible.
I try not to design rules that expect me to be perfect all day every day. My
rules are designed in a way that help me to be perfect only during specific
contexts.
I think the reason that setting rules for ourselves is so often successful is
because it eliminates the need to make decisions. Every time you allow
yourself to make a decision, you give yourself the opportunity to make a _bad_
decision, which you _will_ do at times of low willpower, which pretty much
everyone goes through (willpower is an exhaustible resource).
So my recommendation is to try to design some context-sensitive rules (i.e.
rules that you will follow at certain times or certain places) and adapt them
as necessary so that they work for you. Remind of yourself that your rules
will make your life better and that you are free to change them if you find
that they don't serve you, or else your brain might rebel at the perception of
the pain of discipline.
If your rules take a lot of willpower, they will eventually fail guaranteed.
------
mantisimo
Have a look at a book called "Getting results the agile way". It's a simple
process which you could probably glean from reading the introduction.
Essential you choose 3 things each day that are important for you to solve, 3
things each week, 3 things each month.. You can see where this is going...Or
as a quick (great way) to boost to your productivity have a look at the
'pomodoro technique' There is also another great book called "Getting Things
Done" but that takes much more effort and takes a somewhat anal approach to
managing every conceivable thing if your life.
------
trustfundbaby
You need to work with people waaay better than you, the embarrassment of
seeing them do so much more than you will either force you to keep up or
you'll realize you're not as smart as you thought you were. win-win.
------
robotic424
You don't need help. You will hear a lot of advice, but none of it addresses
your problem.
The issue is, above all else, you haven't found something that lights a fire
in your gut. Something that forces you into action through sheer hunger and
excitement.
Ignore all the tips that help you ignore your inner feelings to achieve what
you don;t really care for.
It too me until 30 to find that which lit a fire inside me, until then I
worked and 'tried' to motivate and push through procrastination.
What can you do? Experience life. Try different things, when you find the what
i'm talking about it will be as clear as day.
------
Gnarl
Dear procastatron (love that name!:),
There are some excellent suggestions below and I admit I haven't read them
all, so sorry for repeats. Here's my experience from combating the same
problem:
You can talk to your conscious mind all you want. Won't help. Your
subconscious mind will reign supreme. Always. So you need to re-program the
subconscious. Eliminate the emotional drivers behind your procrastination. See
2). below for one such method. Think of it as an unfair message bus. Without
cheating, it takes a lot of work to pass messages from the conscious mind down
to the subconscious mind but messages from the subconscious are effortlessly
running your conscious life - and mostly, you don't even realize.
So what to do? 1). calm your minds (both of them) through meditation. Sit for
12 minutes a day in a comfy, non-disturbed place, and focus on your breathing.
When a thought pops up, simply acknowledge it and return to focusing on
breathing. Resist the urge to pursue those trains of thought. This will
strengthen your ability to focus.
2). get familiar with EFT (Emotional Freedom Therapy). Its easy to do and as
an offshoot from acupuncture/acupressure, it involves finger-tapping on
specific acupuncture points on the face and torso. Many people dismiss EFT as
silly pseudoscience but it does prove to be remarkably effective at
eliminating undesired behavior by acting on the deep subconscious circuits.
Its free so why not try it.
~~~
porker
+100 for EFT. I don't care that there isn't a rational explanation for how it
works; I tried it with a "let's prove this wont' work" attitude and had to
accept it was effective for me.
Over the years I've tried psychotherapy, counselling (of the discussion
variety) and EFT combined with counselling. The latter has been by far the
most effective at bringing change. Those around me see the difference.
~~~
Gnarl
Hi Porker, Glad EFT works for you. There is some research being done into the
mechanisms of EFT. One big clue is that collagen fibers in skin and bone are
piezoelectric. So when you "tap" on a acupuncture point or puncture the skin
around it with a needle, an electric charge is created. It is also well
established that there is less electrical resistance between acupuncture
points on the skin than other. Those acupuncture points form daisy chains that
connect with every organ in the body. First time I saw an acupuncture meridian
chart I thought "this is an electrical diagram!". If you want to go deeper
down the rabbit hole I recommend, for starters, the book "The Body Electric"
by Dr. Robert O' Becker. It's a classic on the subject.
------
vijucat
> Any advice on how you taught yourself to focus on tasks, build willpower,
Generally, all your accomplishments are probably being rewarded by societal
"strokes" : "Well done, what a great SAT score!", "Wow, you work at
Facebook?!", etc;
You're not procrastinating; you're simply not that interested in what you've
been sold : work hard, get good grades, make good money, and you'll be happy,
they said.
"Building willpower" is the most common counterproductive approach to this
problem : it's just more of the same, more of beating your natural self to
death with artificial goals and corresponding achievements that don't please
you. It works for a while; you put on The Bourne soundtrack or The Dark Knight
rises soundtrack, get to the gym (or to your startup's office) and pump out
the most awesome set ever. But many things you achieve with sheer willpower
often have the opposite effect, and your soul develops further resistance to
the activity imposed on it.
It's confusing because there are people who are very similar to you, your
peers, your friends, who are actually happy doing the conventional thing :
working hard, burning the midnight oil, working at Goldman Sachs or Google (or
even in the same office at you), actually completing things...You wonder,
"What gives?".
If you're with me this far, I'll continue with the solution to this quandary
in the reply; if not, I'd rather get off the soapbox earlier and get back to
my work.
------
msutherl
I try not to recommend pop-psych books, but The Power of Habit taught me some
useful tricks:
[http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1400069289/ref=as_li_ss_tl?...](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1400069289/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=1400069289&linkCode=as2&tag=morgasuthe-20).
The upshot is that you can't stop this part of yourself. You can only redirect
it. You have a rich set of impulse-reward cycles triggered by the thought of
beginning something difficult. You can't help responding to the triggers, but
you can change the routines and the rewards.
In other words, you can't win by fighting. Don't swim against the current. Use
your existing bad habits as a frame for new better ones.
Somebody else mentioned that you might be bored. Perhaps you are unchallenged.
You could be lacking perspective and proper role models. I would encourage you
to take yourself out of the startup scene (which is largely vapid nonsense)
and try something more viscerally challenging, intellectually engaging, or
just out of the ordinary. Find a research job, work in the theater, go to sea,
volunteer in the third world, backpack around the world, teach classes to your
friends or kids, pick up a craft like glassblowing or carpentry, build a
house, WWOOF, etc.
Did you go to college? If so, what was your degree?
(Shoot me an email if you want to chat – I'm a few years older, but was in a
similar position not too long ago – skiptracer at gmail.)
~~~
msutherl
A professor of mine used to tell me something helpful. It took some time to
accept, but he would say: "nobody cares what you have to say until you're 35".
At this age, and through your 20's, what you're doing is just warming up. You
have quite some time until you're in your prime. So take your time. Enjoy your
dwindling youth, learn, grow, and prepare.
------
shubhamjain
The one thing that helped me in this is a great Chrome plugin, Stayfocusd [1].
Uninstall any other browser and block your access to those sites. Combining
this with blocking even the "chrome://extensions" page, you have a perfect
tool to avoid procrastination.
[1]:
[https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/stayfocusd/laankej...](https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/stayfocusd/laankejkbhbdhmipfmgcngdelahlfoji?hl=en)
~~~
procastatron
I have to access HN on my phone because I've blocked this domain, reddit, and
about 20 others in my /etc/hosts in attempt to stay focused. Instead I just
find more obscure shit to get distracted with until I realize it's a
distraction and ban it
------
egbert
I did this recently and it helped me somewhat: I created a little tool in
which I enter what I'm currently doing, the time I started it and at what time
I think I'll finish. Another script I wrote checks every minute if I'm doing
something at that very moment. If not then it turns my desktop background a
solid red. So its keeps bugging me (especially with the OSX translucent menu
bar). I enter a new activity or expand the old one, my desktop background
turns to a nice grey and I continue my work. Rinse repeat.
This for me was step one.
Another thing thats supposed to be good for you is exercise. So I recently
started doing what this guy does:
[http://youtu.be/ok6VLDFerMw?t=4m54s](http://youtu.be/ok6VLDFerMw?t=4m54s) I
can do this in my living room so the hurdle of going to a gym or something
isn't there. And there isn't a large group of pro's here to see I still suck
at it. I've been doing almost every day for the last two weeks and I'm already
getting stronger.
Hope this helps!
Programming is a challenge for me (and I presume for you). Try to see life as
such a challenge. You can hack at it. You can improve on it. You probably try
to be better in programming than the people around you. Try to be better in
life than the people around you, thats a real challenge!
------
masnick
I recommend listening to [http://5by5.tv/b2w](http://5by5.tv/b2w). Merlin Mann
has really good advice about being productive and about life in general. My
description isn't doing it justice, but I promise it's worthwhile.
(Start with with the first few episodes to get a sense of what the show is
about -- don't start with the current episodes because there's a lot of inside
baseball that won't make sense or be interesting.)
------
luanfernandes
I'm reading HN while I should be working. I'm 22 but I'm unemployed :( I quit
Design School (one of the best in my country) because I really hate how
universities work over here, even though it was free [1]. I learn really quick
most tasks but the way people are teaching here is slow and really
"opressive": you MUST attend to almost all classes otherwise you will
automatically fail, you MUST learn stuff you won't even use EVER [2] and so
on. Even though I think that, I'm still attached to learn with a mentor - not
a TEACHER - because I think it's the only way I can learn real world shit. I
really hope I can find something that pleases me now that my parents are kinda
suffering a economic crisis.
1 - Federal or State Universes here in Brazil are free and most of them are
called the best in the country, even though almost ALL lack something like
good rooms and research equipment. 2 - There was a subject (I guess it's the
right word) we had to study called Technical Drawing. It was like AutoCAD with
hands: we had to use different sizes of pencils to draw houses, yes houses. I
talked to people that was almost in the end of the course and they said "I've
NEVER used this in my projects".
------
X4
@procrastron Mind & Body are equally important. DO SPORT Regulary! 3-4 Times a
Week at the same days every week. Your discipline will come over you and
attack your laziness.
I say that out of personal experience, so if you use only your mind to do your
work, it will shut-off pretty fast to go into standby, because you trained
that mind-muscle to be efficient (3h/day@work). After doing your sports, your
mind will have to adapt and that will decrease your concentration in the first
week, but raise it dramatically in the coming weeks.
Hey it could be your workload too (idk you), in that case, ask for more ;)
hahaha :)
Hook up with a stranger, a friend, or go alone and try to find pals you can do
your sport regularly with as a motivation.
Just NOW you procrastinate AGAIN ;) Why don't you ask your family, Gf, or go
to a Psychologist or Ergo-Theraphy or something, instead of asking the
Internet. You know it's not very likely that we can help you, only you can
help yourself.
I'm not perfect myself and focus on everything, but the thing I need to do. My
habit is to solve things generally and that leads me from A-Z and back to A,
then after having everything done, I start with the job I actually have to
do.. sucks
------
6d0debc071
Perhaps not the healthiest advice if you don't have any addictions already
but: One of the things I do is to blackmail myself with my addictions/vices
when I want to do something that I don't really _want_ to do. Have the reward
present on my desk and just DON'T touch it until whatever I want is done.
If you break it down to pair short bursts of intense rewards, preferably
something with a chemical component, for the completion of small short-term
objective, (I think my shortest is about three minutes; reward for finding
bugs in horrible code,) that approach seems to work reasonably well. (At
least, provided your initial urge to start the action is sufficient.) You only
have to deny yourself the reward for a short while.
I find I can increase the initial urge to do the activity by writing stuff
down to do at the start of the day. I find it has more of an impact if I write
it down at the very start of the day rather than planning stuff out weeks in
advance.
It can also work with time-limited goals. Like I'm going to spend X minutes
doing Y before a reward.
This approach does not seem to work well if using media and activities to
reward yourself rather than some physical pay-off.
------
lazyeye
Dont under-estimate the importance of your social environment. As much as
possible try to get yourself in a place surrounded by peers who do get stuff
done.
------
hello_newman
This is just my two cents, take it with a grain of salt as I am simply a
humble observer peering into your life, with the little information you have
given me.
I dont think you are lazy; I think you are afraid to fail.
Thus far in your life, you've had it easy. SAT's, Valedictorian, probably
started programming when you were 12. You have seen your peers struggle to no
end with this stuff, yet you've always been able to skate by, and still be
better than most. At 21, to be making 130k a year is god damn impressive, not
so much for the "money", but for what the money represents; knowledge and your
skill level of your chosen craft.
The problem is, again from my perspective observing from the outside, you
don't start something because you are afraid you are going to fail. You are
afraid, that for once in your life where things have always just come
naturally to you, that you will try something new and just fail miserably at
it.
I don't think this is a matter of laziness; I think that you just think it is
laziness, so you casually write it off as such without really examining the
root of your problem.
I could be wrong, but I have seen this before. My sister sounds a lot like
you; the oldest child (already the family favorite from that fact alone),
perfect grades her whole life, captain of the cheerleading team (I shit you
not), Valedictorian, great SAT's, accepted into some art school. She is very
smart, makes 40k a year as a copywriter for some mucky-muck agency in LA. She
talked to my mom about starting her own (my mom's suggestion) and her response
was (surprise, surprise!) she doesn't want to be a failure because she knows
most businesses fail.
Then, on the other hand, you have me. I am the only boy in my family (3
sisters), ADD, suffered from bad grades while being surround by 3 straight-A
sisters, arrested at 17 for making a drug deal (long story), in some ways, the
"black sheep" of my family.
I started an eBay business in high school, which made some money. Started a
business in college selling hempseed oil skin care products, flipped
inventory, invested the money into a side project/start up. Outsourced the
development. Got interest from Nordstrom's, Whole Foods, Landry's, and Black
Angus Corporate (I think a PE firm owns them) etc. Realized I loved this so
much, told them I had to put it on hold, dropped out of school, and enrolled
in General Assembly WDI in Santa Monica (was accepted into Dev Bootcamp, my
mom got cancer, stayed closer to home, long story) and will resume operations
once I can build the site from scratch myself. It's a B2B site .
What I am trying to say, is don't be like my sister. Your "perfectionist
complex" seems to be the problem. I have failed, been called every name under
the sun from my own family, and everything else in between, yet I keep going.
Failing is not that big of a deal; in our industry it is a badge of honor if
done correctly. Don't be that guy, who in 20 years, regrets the things he has
not done, instead of the things you have done.
My advice for this; fail. Fail hard. Go out and pop your "success cherry", and
get the fuck out of your comfort zone. Stay humble, stay hungry, keep hacking
and go change the fucking world man. Stop feeling sorry for yourself and just
go do it. I mean really....what do you have to lose?
~~~
jh3
> I dont think you are lazy; I think you are afraid to fail. Your
> "perfectionist complex" seems to be the problem.
Just wanted to highlight these two sentences. I think this is his problem,
too, because I think it is also my problem.
------
Samuel_Michon
I’m a super procrastinator too. I’m also not good at estimating how long a
task will take me. On top of that, I feel apprehensive contacting or
responding to clients once I know I won’t make the deadline, entering radio
silence instead. Needless to say, that’s not good for business and causes both
parties a fair deal of distress.
Some things I’m doing to conquer my shortcomings:
I outline the entire project and try to estimate how long it will take. I then
schedule the work on hours I try to keep myself to (4-5 hours a day). Once
working on the project, I log my working hours and what I do with them. Once
the project is done, I review my outline and time sheets to see how close I
was to my estimates, and where I went wrong (usually I was distracted or
needed to learn new tech to get the work done). I use OmniPlan on iPad to do
all of this[1].
I usually work on several projects at once. I’ve found out that I really can't
focus on more than three at a time, so I’m learning to say ‘no’ to new
projects or schedule them far in the future. In truth, I still have ten
projects right now, but half of them are longer term.
Starting my day by reviewing the projects in OmniPlan and seeing what needs
attention most helps me get started on them. I also have a desktop picture
with the Yogi Bhajan quote “When the time is on you, start and the pressure
will be off.”. When I read it and fully realize it, that motivates me to get
started. And lastly, I use a GTD trick when working on a project that seems
too big or boring: I pick the smallest, most fun part of a project, and tell
myself that I’ll take a break after that. Once I’ve finished it, I’m usually
motivated enough to keep working.
[1] [http://www.omnigroup.com/products/omniplan-
ipad/](http://www.omnigroup.com/products/omniplan-ipad/)
------
vladmk
Firstly, realization in itself is trans-formative. The fact that you did this
is progress already. Very few people in fact I'd argue really no one in life
reaches their true physical, mental, spiritual etc potential so we are all
procrastinators to one extent or another you are just at that extreme.
You never stated what your goals are. What are they? Try to make them
inevitable. This guy talks about that and also has interesting thoughts about
video-game procrastination:
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kyhXttVakk](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kyhXttVakk)
Remember you're not looking for motivation you're looking for discipline. This
is also something I get confused a lot and halts my daily progress down as
well. Coincidentally this guy talks about that as well...not trying to over-
promote, but I found these two videos useful all his other stuff is meh:
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_FFIFhG6to](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_FFIFhG6to)
Best of luck
------
spuz
There are lots of suggestions here about using timers or "just do it" or
thinking about the pain/reward of doing a task you don't feel like doing. But
for me none of these things worked.
If you are like me, the problem was I had no reason to improve myself. I had
no motivation to improve my life beyond its basic needs. You have an easy life
- you have money, time and good health (just an assumption) but clearly there
is still something wrong. Something gnawed at you enough today to make you
write this post. Something is telling you that your life could be so much
better.
I recommend reading the book _Getting Past OK_ by Richard Brodie (a fellow
programmer). For me the helpful points in the book were:
\- It is possible to drastically improve your life, to find meaning and
happiness (I was pretty skeptical of this point in general before picking the
book up)
\- You need to accept who you are now (skrebbel commented on this already)
\- The beliefs, opinions and feelings you have about things (e.g. doing "work"
is a chore) are the product of your experience up to this point. This means
they can be changed. If you identify a belief that is holding you back, you
can change it to fit your goals.
\- Procrastination is just one of your problems and is actually quite easy to
fix once you figured out why you want to fix it. There is a section of the
book devoted to breaking out of the procrastination habit.
\- If you want to be successful you have to be committed. This might sound
hard and constraining but once you figure out "ok this is want I really want",
it's just the opposite.
I am still nowhere near where I should be. I don't think that book has all the
answers. But I think it is a great start - you can even read it while
procrastinating from work if you like :)
Good luck!
------
ja27
Sounds very familiar. You've trained your whole life for working slightly hard
for short periods of time and getting enough done to keep up. The only way
I've seen to fight that is to do things that can't be mastered quickly: chess,
playing music, sports, etc.
There are also certain lines of work that would work better. You're probably
never going to fit into a software developer role if you're expected to spend
1-3 week sprints delivering chunks of functioning code. You would probably
excel at a top-tier customer support role where you dug into hard problems and
diagnosed other people's code.
One thing that's helped me is to keep a very visual record of progress and
become a widget-cranking machine. Break everything into discrete tasks that
are either done or not done and put them on PostIts or index cards and plaster
them all over the wall where you can see them. Mark up the completed ones and
keep them around and visible.
Another thing that helps me a lot is to get away from electronics. When I have
a document I need to review, I print it and go somewhere without my laptop or
even my phone. I'll also pull out a Moleskine or even some printer paper and
go somewhere electronic-free to try to dump all of the things I'm thinking
about. Sometimes I'll even write out a bit of a journal entry just to clear
the junk from my head.
You could listen to Merlin Mann's podcasts and read his writings, but he's got
the same problem with no real solution. Some of his talks with David Allen
(Getting Things Done) and his 'To Have Done' talk helped me a bit:
[http://www.43folders.com/2005/10/16/43f-podcast-the-to-
have-...](http://www.43folders.com/2005/10/16/43f-podcast-the-to-have-done-
list)
You could find a way to move into working for yourself and build product, not
service, business. Then nobody except you will notice or care if you work 3
days a month.
------
helen842000
To me, this is all about motivation.
You know your mental capacity/ability easily exceeds and achieves what is
asked of it, so in order to stop yourself over delivering you have created
self imposed limits to prevent wasting your creative resources. Applying the
'minimum effective dose' to your work load is efficient but makes you a poor
team player.
You then use time pressure & the guilt of not having done much work as
motivation and a daily indicator of when it's time to really apply yourself &
sprint to your deadline.
You're obviously deeply motivated by the sense of reward in experiencing the
'phew, just made it' scenario and this is far more attractive than pacing
yourself and then asking for more work.
I don't actually think you're procrastinating - just waiting to be motivated &
challenged and then filling in that extra time with (poor quality) mental
stimulation.
By working in this sprint fashion you're actually ensuring you can cope with
deadlines, stress & pressure - important skills you learned in your academic
life.
Ways to resolve this involve using this motivation to your advantage (be
careful not to burn yourself out)
Explain to your manager you feel you could be more productive & ask for a
milestone approach to your work.
Surround yourself with ambitious people that you respect (even in online
circles) they will provide a peer group that might trigger your
competitiveness
Work on projects in your spare time in a sprint fashion e.g one
night/week/month only or Startup Weekends
Decide on a work based project of your own creation to keep you productive
even when you're not working on your core tasks.
You've ticked off the achievements that society sets out for us, now you have
to continue the list & decide on your own new aims.
------
michalu
One thing that worked for me was to give up illusions about the quick fix. You
won't kill procrastination tomorrow or anytime in the future, you can only
develop habits that will be harder to break after some time. I like to see
myself as an abstinent - it can come back anytime and therefore I stick to my
routines and avoid any situations leading to procrastination. It's a life long
process in my eyes and only consistence leads to change.
What helped me was to develop a morning routine - I started with making my
bed. Every day. I know myself - if I leave out one day I will leave out second
day too and eventually fail. After a while I added cold shower, 2 glasses of
water, workout, 5 min meditation and a healthy breakfast - to cut it short I
have been working out every morning for last 6 months, not missing a single
day.
I created an excel sheet where I track if I miss the routine or not, the time
I spend working and the time I spend studying something. I have it done for 9
weeks all on one paper - it works better that having a daily to do list
because you can see your progress and how you've been doing so far, unlike
with daily to-do where you can quickly forget you wasted last monday. ( I have
it printed out - and I put it on a visible place. It works better, because
once I turn on the notebook I get distracted about wanting to check my email
and what to do next. I keep this stuff strictly offline )
After 9 weeks I sum it up and take a week off. Over the last year my net
working hours have increased 500% and so has my income.
Another thing that helped was to change environment, clean up stuff, email,
desktop the room, throw things out. I have put a K9 on my pc blocking porn,
youtube, facebook, quora and every medium where I can read something about
politics. I threw out the password and blocked even the email provider I have
my backup email on. Sounds ridiculous right. Well I feel liberated, I just
don't have to fight with the temptation anymore and it saves a lot of energy.
And most importantly I actually do what I love doing every day. My life is
much better since then. It also forced me to spend my time more meaningfully.
Also note that I tried many things before and most have failed. This is what
eventually worked for me as an individual ( yes my procrastination was that
bad, I had to get that radical ) I remember feeling so hopeless I actually
thought I won't change ever in my life, that I am doomed to be lazy. Well
anyway I still have to remind myself I am a step from falling back and I still
work on the improvement.
------
mathattack
For better or worse, I force myself into daily To Do lists. Procrastination
hits when you're talented but underemployed. The To Do lists force me to work
on bigger things too, and reminds me that there's an internal consequence (if
not external) from being lazy. Over the long haul, dumber people will catch
and pass you by if you keep up the habits. Or even if not, you won't achieve
the greatness of which you are capable.
Two caveats: 1 - It's never to late to start learning, or get better habits.
Mine dramatically improved several years out of school. 2 - You can't be 100%
on 100% of the time. Many great thinkers can still only get 4 hours per day of
deep thought. It's ok to catch up on administrative crap in the other hours.
------
razzaj
No amount of willpower, or medical procedures (except maybe for lobotomy) will
render tasks "you" find boring harder to postpone.
The key element, in my opinion, is to cognitively transform tasks into
achievements. the latter are far more appealing to smart(er) people.
adding to that the premise : No matter how smart you are you wont be able to
bullshit your way out of PAYING salaries at the end of the month.
My advice: Start your own company doing what do now, just as a service
instead, and i bet the paradigm shift alone is enough to "motivate you". That
said, this will not "cure" you from procrastination. It will just drive you to
overcome it as your brain starts to link "tasks" to actual milestones which
pave the way to achievements.
------
forgottenpaswrd
Surround yourself of people better than you and find challenges in your job.
What I read from your message is "I am a genius, I am gifted, I don't need to
work because I am so smart, work is so easy".
Bullshit. If you are so gifted:
could you find the cure to a cancer saying, I don't know understanding DNA
code?
Could you help developing nuclear fusion?
Could you really improve the social condition of the people around you?
Have you done anything meaningful with your life. My neighbor being stupid had
help in her life more people than probably what you will.
Choose one big challenge, bigger than yourself and next time you want to read
online(nothing bad if about it it is meaningful) or want to play games on your
job work a little in your challenge.
Don't try to make more of your boring job, change it if necessary.
~~~
procastatron
At the end of the day, you're comment here has more truth to it than anything
else in this thread.
And it's one of the reasons I indulge in self-loathing more than I should
------
clbrook
I haven't read through all the other comments and I have offered this advice
before, so forgive me if it sounds repetitive.
The book that helped me the most was 'Mindset' by Carol Dweck. It is a quick
read and gives multiple settings for describing fixed mindset vs growth
mindset. It sounds like you are mainly in the fixed mindset and perhaps
reading this book could jump start you into finding ways to incorporate the
growth mindset.
[http://www.amazon.com/Mindset-The-New-Psychology-
Success/dp/...](http://www.amazon.com/Mindset-The-New-Psychology-
Success/dp/0345472322/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1375445973&sr=8-1&keywords=mindset+dweck)
------
d0m
It's hard, I've read most comments in this discussion thread and most of them
aren't coming from procrastinators. But if I may say the only trick that
worked for me... get started. That's the hardest part. But once you get
started, even thought 99% of it suck, you'll find a part of the task that you
want to continue and push yourself to it. And every time you feel like
quitting the task, push yourself to do 1 more minute.. just one. And you'll
find yourself addicted to a small part of that task that you find interesting.
Whatever it is, dishes, work, making calls, paying credit cards.. just get
started for 30 secs. The rest will fall into place.
------
christianlo
I work as a manager and I'd say that I would consider your problem not being
"yours" but your manager's problem.
As your manager, I would have you work more closely with some dedicated but
inspirational and funny person. Have you in on discussions and make research
on topics shapes the decision making of what we are working on. I would simply
make sure you had at least three different type of work (programming,
researching, preparing for a presentation etc) and see what you gravitated
towards and then keep a solid ratio between the different things.
So, I guess that I am suggesting that you should tell your manager about this
problem and have her helping you with it.
------
lasonrisa
I strongly recommend these books. They have been very helpful. If you were to
read just one, read the first.
"Procrastination: Why You Do It, What to Do About It Now"
[http://www.amazon.com/Procrastination-Why-You-What-
About/dp/...](http://www.amazon.com/Procrastination-Why-You-What-
About/dp/0738211702)
"The Now Habit: A Strategic Program for Overcoming Procrastination and
Enjoying Guilt-Free Play" [http://www.amazon.com/The-Now-Habit-Overcoming-
Procrastinati...](http://www.amazon.com/The-Now-Habit-Overcoming-
Procrastination/dp/1585425524)
------
rayiner
Adderall is an amazing drug for people like you. Also, try getting a job in a
field, say programming for banks, or management consulting, where you can't
procrastinate.
As for procrastinating life stuff: outsource everything. Get a maid, etc.
------
codeoclock
I'm in a similar position, but I find that the major factor that affects my
procrastination is my emotional investment in the product I'm making. At work,
I don't really care about the application I'm building - largely because the
quality of the existing codebase makes me depressed. However, when I get home
and work on my own side projects, I code like there's no tomorrow, and have no
problem with focus. I haven't had the opportunity to test my theory yet, but I
think one way of tackling procrastination is to make sure you're in a job that
you really care about.
~~~
codeoclock
Also, and perhaps more importantly, make sure you have the opportunity to grow
as a developer at whatever job you're in. If a job doesn't provide learning
opportunities pretty regularly, I feel as if I'm wasting my time and don't
care about the product, and as a result spend a lot more time on HN while I'm
at work. I'm at work right now :P
------
musicalentropy
The next time you feel like wanting to procrastinate, have a look for that :
[http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Overcoming_Procrastination](http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Overcoming_Procrastination)
------
foobarbazqux
Well, you're following in your dad's footsteps. Procrastination is a kind of
passive aggression, and it sounds like you're mad at your dad for being a bad
role model. It also sounds like you feel guilty about not using your talents
fully. Psychotherapy can be very good for these kinds of things if you find
someone you like and trust. It will help you to separate psychologically from
your parents, which is never a bad thing. You don't have to wait for a severe
crisis before you go and talk to someone, and at your income level you can
easily afford it.
------
easy_rider
Can't help you with this, but wow I could have written this myself buddy. I
started freelancing, and feeling how tough it is now. I find myself playing
catch-up all the time, and binge working, and making excuses to clients, which
sucks, and do not define as how I see myself as a person. I'm pretty ADD as
well. As a side-note I found L-theanine+caffeine (or just tea) helps me in
relaxing and focusing for longer periods. I didn't drink any today I just
realized, and boy i'm all over the place with the regular 22 random tabs open.
------
ColinHayhurst
Don't be so hard on yourself: You're probably a type C:
[http://www.paulgraham.com/procrastination.html](http://www.paulgraham.com/procrastination.html)
------
hfz
I am a lot like you, and I've tried so many things. Tips, tricks, to-do lists,
whatever.
The one thing that sticks with me is to first truly understand the value of
time. It sounds cheesy but time really is the most valuable resource in the
world, and procrastinating is about the worst way to squander it.
Also, even after coming at that conclusion, it's still a struggle, every day.
There is not a day when you can magically be not lazy. It will still be there
forever, but you can choose to fight it. It's a daily struggle, but absolutely
worth it, though.
------
mattm
I can relate to this. You sound like you just learn things incredibly fast so
you can get by doing much less than other people. Why not just accept it?
You're the type of person who is more like a sprinter than a marathoner
intellectually. You don't see Usian Bolt trying to run marathons.
Of course, the bad part is that the working system forces everyone into the
same bucket. You're probably only going to find happiness by getting outside
of that system and building your own business where you can set your own work
schedule.
------
egypturnash
If you didn't have to worry about money, how close is what work pays you to do
to what you actually would be doing? I find it's a lot easier to get work done
on something I'm excited about, and a lot easier to keep working on something
once the initial excitement is gone if it's something I give a damn about.
You say you could be changing the world. Is there a way you actually would
LIKE to be changing the world? What can you do to actually work towards this
change, in your day job or in your off hours?
------
binarymax
Edit your hosts file to point all your procrast sites to 127.0.0.1
------
bastijn
I kind of have the same. You ask for help but from experience I can tell that
most tips you have to do yourself wont break the habit.
For me, there is/was just one solution. Ina one-on-one I told my boss (who was
already very happy with me btw) that this was only about 40-50% of me. I just
asked for more responsibility, more work, and make sure I can no longer
bullshit around. Added benefit, this received me sone awards, and very
positive salary talks :).
------
xyproto
Life is not like a continuous road. Life has chapters. Even if you
procrastinate now, you can be in a completely different situation for the next
chapter. The trick is to try to make the good chapters last and keep making
changes until bad chapters turn good. Also, try "going with the life flow"
while keeping a healthy respect for situations you know have the potential to
go wrong.
------
henningb
What works best for me: Work closely with super-motivated people who inspire
you. Procrastination goes down to zero. Interestingly, the effect lasts even
after your project with these people is finished.
Also, read [http://www.jamesaltucher.com/2012/04/5-great-things-about-
pr...](http://www.jamesaltucher.com/2012/04/5-great-things-about-
procrastination/)
------
keviv
I just realized, I have a similar problem. I've bookmarked the thread and
reading every comment on it. Thanks for asking the questions :)
------
Tomis02
I always find myself procrastinating when I think the work I have to do will
get me bored out of my mind, so I don't even try.There's loads of little
things that could stop you from doing some actual work, but I think the main
problem is that you are not really excited by what you are supposed to do. If
you fix that I reckon you will be in an entirely new world.
------
devalhubert
This helped me hugely - procrastination is a symptom of an over-achiever who
is afraid to fail, because they rarely have.
Start from halfway down on 'The Real Causes of Procrastination'.
Welcome to the club: [http://www.raptitude.com/2011/05/procrastination-is-not-
lazi...](http://www.raptitude.com/2011/05/procrastination-is-not-laziness/)
~~~
procastatron
Read this a while ago. It's a great article
------
jeandlr
Find something you're passionate about in which you'll put all your energy and
talent! Start you own venture. And when it starts being difficult or boring,
remember you can't fake it then, because it will drive you to either success
or failure.
And find damn good mentors ASAP. I assume you don't have any valuable ones
otherwise you wont be asking HN.
~~~
procastatron
Truth. I find myself doing a lot more mentoring than menteeing. I haven't
found very many older smarter people in my community. That said, I'm way
behind a lot of you guys on HN in terms of knowledge. I wish more of you super
smart programmer guys lived in my immediate community
------
gcheong
This is a very short book written by a professor who researches
procrastination. If you are interested in what the latest research has to say
about procrastination and strategies to overcome it, it is well worth the
read: [http://amzn.com/1453528598](http://amzn.com/1453528598)
------
gprasanth
I remember awhile back here on hn, a guy did an experiment: hire somebody on
craigslist to watch him while he works. That's all. It turned out to be pretty
productive.
It's even more awesome if you can get someone who understands your work.
<programmer></programmer>
So find & _pair_ with a programmer you are compatible with.
~~~
procastatron
Unfortunately, this usually results in a slower pace than I can stand. The
guys on my team are all young too 19-26, and frankly I'm more knowledgeable
than most of them. I really have had some good pair programming sessions but
usually it's just me teaching best practices the whole time which can get
pretty draining. I also think I don't like it because I can't go off and get
that procrastinator dopamine rush
------
Houshalter
Well I can not speak from experience enough to help since my own
procrastination problems are quite bad. But this
([http://lesswrong.com/lw/1sm/akrasia_tactics_review/](http://lesswrong.com/lw/1sm/akrasia_tactics_review/))
might help.
------
dminor14
Create a menu of tasks. Dedicate yourself to making progress on at least one
of them at any given time. If you like doing any of them choose then one you
feel least adverse to. It doesn't matter how many tasks are in your menu, or
which one you choose, just "no empty time".
~~~
barnaby001
Lame. See response on add.
------
agilebyte
Working more hours != making use of your _gift_
This is your 100% capacity. You may be _able_ to work for more hours, but a
combination of your life situation (age, salary etc) causes you not to.
Once/if you are fired, that will teach ya.
If you don't like how this sounds then grab that feeling and challenge
yourself.
------
stevewillows
Want to start a project with me? It's not a huge project, but something to
accomplish.
~~~
procastatron
Maybe. But I fear taking more on will only be more detrimental
~~~
stevewillows
Shoot me an email if you're up to it.
------
Jdfmiller
I'm sorry but if you're on $130k at the age of 21, I really don't think you
should worry about procrastination. If I was on anything near $130K at my age,
I'd walk around with a grin on my face 24/7.
Go to the beach and enjoy your life.
------
jpswade
One thing that worked for me in the past.
Get a post-it note and write 3 things you want to achieve today.
Then work on those 3 things until they are done.
If you find yourself procrastinating, just look at the post-it note to remind
you what you're meant to be doing and restore your focus.
------
ahussain
Keep an "Interruptions Log". Have a piece of paper next to you, and every time
you are are doing something that's not directly related to coding, write down
the start time, end time, and activity you're doing.
It worked like magic for me!
------
jbrooksuk
When I find myself procrastinating I ask myself "how much could I achieve if I
just do it now?" usually that works for a couple of of hours, I break for 5
minutes and then ask myself the same question before starting work again.
------
mugenx86
“Find something more important than you are and dedicate your life to it.”
-Dan Dennett
------
tlarkworthy
I heard that efficient people don't let work build up and I tried it. If you
get a task you can do immediately and not put into a queue, do it now! That
advice has saved me tons of time, and stopped me drowning in work.
------
k__
For me, it helped to work in different places.
When I'm on my home-desktop I won't get shit done, but when I'm at work, or at
a different room with my laptop, everything works out fine.
------
klahnako_cell
don't worry! as long as your job is not negatively impacted, you are good to
continue on your path of procrastination. yes, you could do more with less
procrastination, but there will be more waste: Procrastination serves a useful
purpose, by allowing you to get the most information before taking action.
you are young, so have fun, find a life partner. one day you will find a
project or purpose that will give you pasision that turns you into the eager
beaver you're dreaming to be now.
~~~
procastatron
This might be related. I have horrible approach anxiety when it comes to
girls. When I'm in a convo, I usually do pretty well and multiple people have
told me I'm good with girls. Once again it feels like I'm cheating the system,
I use a few PUA tricks once in a while but in reality I've never gone on a
date which would surprise most people I know
------
danenania
My suggestion is to shift as soon as you can into freelancing and consulting,
find interesting projects, work when you feel like working, and stop feeling
guilty.
~~~
procastatron
I ran a freelancing company for about 2 years. I did a really shitty job
managing clients and would often just ignore their calls. In fact, I'd feel
better right away when I ignored them completely. It would just bite my ass in
the long run.
I ended up being fairly successful from it as even though I was horrible at
communication, I worked on an hourly basis instead of milestones and was able
to at least deliver something substantial to the client.
~~~
danenania
You could try to team up with someone who doesn't mind dealing with clients so
that you can focus on what you like.
I don't know if you're anything like me, but for me it's all about finding
motivation. I'm not good at sitting down when I don't feel like working and
slogging through 10 hours to further someone else's goals and I don't wish to
be good at that. When I've been in those situations I end up spending my time
in a way similar to what you describe. But give me ownership of an interesting
project and the freedom to work on it according to my own schedule, and I'll
happily put in highly productive 50+ hour weeks with no trouble at all. These
qualities make me a somewhat crappy employee but a great consultant (and I'd
like to think good potential as a founder).
------
lazyeye
Tales of Mere Existence - Procrastination
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4P785j15Tzk](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4P785j15Tzk)
------
kuyan
My technique: if it takes less than two minutes, just do it, then and there.
This is most effective when you split big tasks into smaller tasks.
Two minutes here and there really add up.
------
skue
The fact that this has been going on for years, and that you feel the
procrastination is holding you back from your full potential does sound like
it could be ADHD, as others have mentioned. Also, ADHD tends to run in
families. So if your dad is the same way...
Most people associate ADHD with kids who struggle in school. But highly
intelligent people can have it too. It still holds them back from reaching
their potential, it's just that their potential is much greater.
Here are some things to ask yourself:
* Do you also procrastinate non-work things such as buying gifts, paying bills, calling people back?
* What is your home like: Do you have a lot of half-finished projects, "piles", or chores that never get finished?
* Are you always running late because you are busy doing other things, or underestimate what you need to do to get out the door and get to your destination?
* Do people tell you that you frequently interrupt others when they are talking?
* Would you describe yourself as a risk taker and more prone to high adrenaline activities? How the friends you keep?
* Are you only able to focus with the help of caffeine, guarana (eg, Vitamin Water Energy), or other energy drinks?
* Do you use nicotine to relax or be more focused? (If so, please stop and see a doctor.)
* Do you use alcohol, not to get drunk or for the drink itself, but as a way to unwind or slow down at the end of the day?
This is a good book: [http://www.amazon.com/Driven-Distraction-Revised-
Recognizing...](http://www.amazon.com/Driven-Distraction-Revised-Recognizing-
Attention/dp/0307743152), which reminds me of another question:
* Do you buy/start a lot of books, but rarely seem to finish them?
Read enough of the book to see if this resonates with you. If it does, the
next step would be to talk to (a) your doctor if you have one, or (b) find a
psychiatrist in your area who specializes in ADHD. The book can help you find
resources.
_Edit: Just to be clear, this list is NOT meant to be diagnostic. Although I
happen to have an MD, I am NOT a practicing physician no one should assume
they have ADHD based on any list like this. I would only say that if many of
these things hold overwhelmingly true for the OP, then it might be worth
learning more about ADHD and finding a professional to begin a conversation.
Yes, ADHD and meds sparks a lot of cynicism in some people. However, one
reason I recommended that book is that the authors present a balanced approach
to meds. One of the authors has ADHD, but doesn't find that meds make much of
a difference for him (they reportedly are ineffective for 25% of adults with
ADHD). But they have helped many of his patients and his own son._
~~~
jmagoon
Is it odd that this sounds like normal human behavior to me?
~~~
TheZenPsycho
Nope. Pathologising the normal range of human behavior is a popular activity
of neurotic western privileged people. Or whatever the mental illness that's
trending at the moment.
~~~
skue
Before I went to med school, I was similarly skeptical about the med/pharma
industry. But like the global warming debate, once you understand the science,
you begin to realize how facile the conspiracy theories are.
Here's the science behind ADHD: Functional MRI allows us to image actual brain
activity. And there are clear differences between the brains of those
diagnosed with ADHD and those diagnosed without (and yes, they do these
studies blind, so researchers can't be biased).
And more recently they have found that stimulants such as methylphenidate (aka
Ritalin) and others actually reverse these changes. Here is a recent study,
plus a metareview (which compared several such studies):
[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23247506](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23247506)
[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23660970](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23660970)
Of course, we could still have an interesting philosophical discussion about
what we label a medical condition and what are variations of normal that
nevertheless have a biological basis. Clearly, ADHD is not on par with
debilitating psychiatric conditions such as schizophrenia or a bipolar manic
episode.
But ADHD can cause functional impairment in school, jobs, and personal
relationships; it can lead to decreased happiness and satisfaction in life
(and not only for the person affected, but also their families, partners, and
colleagues); there are clear neurophysiological differences underlying it; and
we have treatments that can make an important difference. So why not use them?
And as for the big drug companies? Most of the ADHD drugs are generic these
days, so they don't profit.
~~~
PaulFreund
I think the truth lies in between. The conspiracy theories are not completely
off regarding that about half of the authors of the ADD/ADHD sections of the
DSM-IV were paid by pharma companies [1].
That does not change the fact that ADHD is a dysfunction of the brain where
the regulation of Dopamin and/or Serotonin does not meet the requirements of
the environment.
I think it rather tells us something about the diagnosis which isn't handled
very carefully in many cases, especially for children. A proper long term
validation of symptoms and evaluation of treatment methods should be a
starting point, not a standardized set of questions and a recipe at the end of
the session. Behavioral therapy can sometimes be as effective as drug use but
it is not even considered most of the time.
Without extended knowledge of the topic the public almost has to think that
ADHD is a fraud. It's nothing one can see as a broken leg and the media only
reports about Fraud and instant subscriptions to children that might not even
have ADHD. Sometimes even MD's claim it's not a real disease because of these
reasons. It's not their field and what they hear about it only makes them
suspicious. There is so much misinformation about the topic it's just sad.
[1]
[http://www.naturalnews.com/019404_psychiatry_psychiatric_dru...](http://www.naturalnews.com/019404_psychiatry_psychiatric_drugs.html)
( sorry couldn't find a better english source )
------
edw519
_For as long as I can remember I have been a super procrastinator._
You have misdiagnosed yourself, which is why you've had so much difficulty
finding a solution. You're trying to solve the wrong problem...
You are not a procrastinator. You are a fish out of water. You are not where
you belong, working on what you should be working on. You consciously don't
realize this, but deep down inside, you really do; that's why you're fighting
yourself. That also pretty much explains all of your behavior.
_However, I 'm also pretty smart which helps me fake it so that no one else
notices._
So what. Join the crowd
_I think part of my problem might be that I grew up with an entitlement
complex as I was valedictorian, near perfect SATs etc. and I never did shit in
high school._
It's about time that you stop diagnosing and analyzing yourself and start
seeking what you love and where you belong.
_Now that I 'm in the real world it's starting to really gnaw at me._
Funny how that works. Welcome.
_I make $130k as a 21 year old_
Forget about that. Some of the worst personal decisions ever made were over-
influenced by money. Don't fall into that trap. The next thing you know,
you'll be 55 years old, with what others would call a good life, and you'll be
wondering where the time went and why you didn't live the life your really
wanted. I know know tons of people just like that, who spent so much time
chasing nickels, they never really lived their intended life. Don't end up
like them.
_and I probably put in 3 hours of real work a day._
Then you're probably in the wrong job.
_I 'm a good enough programmer that I can bullshit my way through most stuff_
How sad. Find a better path.
_at this point I think people are starting to realize that I 'm a bit slower
than I could be_
The lack of congruence in your life will manifest itself in many ways. This is
just one.
_I still push out a lot of code, but I secretly spend 7-8 hours a day doing
bullshit at work (reading online, games, etc)._
Another signal that you're in the wrong place. It's not you, it's your
situation.
_I know that I 've been given a gift and that I'm a fucking idiot for wasting
it_
Knowing there's a problem is good.
_but I 've just become a chronic procrastinator and it sucks._
Misidentifying the problem is not good.
_I could be changing the world_
You are changing the world. Just not in the way you imagined. Your post here
is probably helping many others. And that's just one thing.
We all change the world in our own small way. Learn to accept that's OK.
_I 'm putting in the bare minimum and no matter what trick or method I try I
can't seem to beat it._
Because you're addressing the wrong problem. See above.
_I 've never had a strong willpower to begin with and now it seems to be
getting worse_
Willpower's got nothing to do with it. (Example: How much willpower does it
take to not beat your children?) Just to the right thing. That doesn't take
willpower, just identifying the right thing and then doing it.
_Any advice on how you taught yourself to focus on tasks, build willpower,
and get shit done would be helpful._
Yea. Stop fighting "it" and find what you'd love to do. Then start doing it.
You'll be amazed that you ever even posted this here.
_I wonder if I really fucked my brain /habits up so much that I'll never
reach my full capacity._
No. Unless you did lots of drugs or fell off you bike or something like that.
_I 've been like this for the past 6-7 years and it doesn't seem to be going
away anytime soon._
Doesn't matter...
2 people are going from New York to San Francisco. One has gone directly from
New York to Chicago. The other has made stops in Florida, Texas, Virgina, and
Oklahoma on his way to Chicago. How do their plans differ now that they are
both in Chicago and need to get to San Francisco? They don't. The past doesn't
matter. Only the present and the future. This applies to you too. Forget about
the past 6-7 years and find your path.
_My dad is also very similar in that he 's smart enough to bullshit through
life but he only works at 10-20% of his full capacity and he never completes
anything._
One at a time please.
_Help!?_
I hope I have. If not, or you need clarification, contact me via the email in
my profile.
~~~
Leepic
I agree with most of what you said but what bothers me is that maybe we are
the ones who are wrong. Why? Because the entire premise of your argument is
boiled down to a stereotype the start-up culture tries to force down
everyone's throat: that if you cannot fight through the boring "stuff" you
don't love what you're doing and therefore you're not fit for that job because
that "stuff" shouldn't be boring, to begin with.
People should be allowed to like things besides their work. Not everyone in
life needs to have a "passion" or "love" and it's perfectly fine if you never
find your passion and it's also absolutely normal to have days when your mind
just wanders to beaches and clubs and a tropical island or whatever.
I know that OP's case is very different but every time I see THAT statement -
that if you can't do your job endless hours with a smile on your face then
you're unfit and in the wrong career - makes me wanna punch a pony.
Get over that myth already.
------
yason
The complement of procrastination is wild passion. One who's capable of
procrastinating with one sort of things is exactly the type of guy who's
capable of getting _some other things_ done if only he does things that call
him on a deeper level.
It seems that among the great scores in school you haven't bumped into
anything would have ignited that passion in you. That is OK because schools
are pretty much designed to kill all passion, and you're so young anyway.
There are a lot of people who can't get things done because they aren't smart
enough: it's always better to be a procrastinator in comparison.
Procrastination is your way to reject activities that _don 't mean enough_ to
you.
Nobody procrastinates splitting and carrying wood if the heating of his house
depends on it. Your behaviour is effectively saying that reading Hacker News
is more meaningful to you than your work. That is a good hint: find work that
you would rather do whenever you find yourself procrastinating at your current
work.
Another hint: you're suffering because you'd _like to care about_ your work.
THat's passion speaking already.
You would like to do lots and lots of good work: you just can't get to it
where you're working now. There are a lot of people who would kill for such a
talent and go happily abuse the smarts you have so that they could only work
for three hours and then go play Patience for the rest of the day.
Also consider that three hours of real work per day is pretty average for the
hours of a regular workday.
Other people fake it, too, and work on looking busy, even subconsciously. Yet
you can find people at the kitchen all day long, drinking coffee. Or browsing
Facebook at their computers. It's all a subtle game where everybody knows that
nobody really does productive work all the time but everybody also knows that
they're not to admit it, even to each others.
Note that this behaviour is _not intentional_ : it's simply that people aren't
generally wired to do creative things for hours in a row, day after day. What
people can bear, for example, is 8-hour shifts on the assembly line five days
a week numbing your mind, and then consider what _even that does_ to them! Not
to mention creative mental work that you can't force like you can force your
muscles! I've talked about this with many people and the consensus seems to be
that roughly four hours of real work per day means a good day and you're
likely to just work the rest of the day wrestling with your guilt because you
think you could do more.
Thus, consider the fact what you do during the three hours is that what is
important. Not the things you could've achieved, according your imagination,
in the other five hours.
Further, if you're working more than eight hours a day, it's no wonder you're
super frustrated and trying to get out by procrastinating. You say you do
"bullshit" for 7-8 hours and 3 hours of real work, that adds up to 10-11 hours
a day. That's a lot of precious time spent for something you could've just
done in three hours with much less stress!
Finally, go Watch Office Space. Again. While it's supposed to be mostly funny
it just happens that the movie hits the chord on so many levels that it's
nearly creeping in its truthfulness.
------
crawfordcomeaux
I can absolutely relate. We're in the same boat and this is my personal cry
for help, but more on that further down.
I'm 30 and still where you are, except without money. I've only skimmed the
comments, but I agree with those who say you may have ADD or ADHD-PI. For
adults with ADHD (speaking as one who's done a bit of research on it over the
past few months), medication is almost never enough. Adult ADHD is complicated
further by coping mechanisms (ie. good & bad habits) that have been developed
in response to the condition. Habits exist in our brains as reinforced neural
pathways, so changing them is essentially like trying to rewire your brain. To
my knowledge, there is no pill in existence that will do that.
Side note about why I think you may have ADHD (which is simply ADD + multiple
hyperactivity traits) based on what I've skimmed in the comments:
procrastination (duh), highly intelligent, overcommiter, ability to hyperfocus
(which is why you can slam out code, but also why you went down the "rabbit
hole" away from meditation), info addict.
Also, for what it's worth, I take Vyvanse 60mg in the morning & Adderall XR
20mg around 2PM. Vyvanse is awesome if it works for you.
Anyway, I don't know what the solution is, though there have been good
suggestions throughout the comments. Also, I highly recommend the book "ADD-
Friendly Ways to Organize Your Life." Even if you don't have ADD, it has a lot
of useful suggestions for approaching several of your issues.
I do have an idea that I'm currently trying to test, though, which brings me
to my cry for help...
I'm building a system for myself to help change multiple bad habits at once,
but I work much better when collaborating with a group & have nobody to work
with. I'm attempting to break the conventional wisdom that you should baby-
step your way through multiple habits. The CW exists because habit change
costs willpower (ie. results in "ego depletion") and trying to change multiple
habits saps your daily reserve of willpower too quickly. The system I'm coding
is intended to mitigate this by removing the option of going through with an
existing habit. Without the ability to perform a habit, there's essentially no
willpower spent.
The plan is to combine several different apps & APIs to: \- detect when I'm
getting distracted (via RescueTime, primarily) and restrict my computer usage
(though I'm thinking it may make more sense to restrict by default & invert
the restrictions as a means for enforcing break times) \- detect when I'm on
the computer/phone when I should be doing something else (via Google Calendar)
and lock my out of both (via Prey & Find My iPhone) \- detect when events
occur that I want to attach habits to, such as decluttering one room when I
arrive at home (via Find My iPhone) \- ping my support group when I need it
(just an idea...still needs fleshing out) \- confirm task completion through
different means (eg. check to see if a document exists if a writing task is
needed, follow up on phone/email tasks, compare original image of clean
kitchen with latest photo of clean kitchen when I'm supposed to wash dishes,
or just confirm with others in the support system that the task has been
completed)
Currently, I'm building the system out using Huginn
([http://github.com/cantino/huginn](http://github.com/cantino/huginn)), but
would either like to optimize the system so that it can scale for other users
or build something similar in node.js. In the meantime, I'm developing Huginn
agents for the needed APIs (and the API wrappers where necessary). But this is
slow going and I have no means of generating income. Getting a full-time job
means I have to spend my day attempting to keep from getting distracted, so I
wind up without the mental energy to do anything else after work while still
not being productive enough at work to hold a job. Since my parents refuse to
accept this as the situation (despite 15 years of this pattern), I no longer
have their financial support to continue working on this. I essentially have a
month to find menial funding to build this out as a service for others, at
which point I'll either need to give up pursuing my dream of creating a
startup to join the rat race or join the military in the hopes that such a
structured environment will correct things.
Is this a project anyone would be willing to help me develop?
~~~
nisa
Just my take it on it as a 29 year old with no money and a bag of
procrastination issues and some traits that look like ADD (I've once got
diagnosed for general anxiety disorder, no ADD, but never did a test for it):
Technical solutions, like the one you explained never worked for me.
I'd second some other commenters here that accepting oneself is the first
step. And learning to look objectivly on yourself and accept that you fuck
things up from time to time. Don't say that's why I'm lazy or that is because
of X. Just note that you are doing something you know it is bad. And try to
accept that. It's easier to deal with it.
Things that helped me (that you could try before going down the military
route):
Heavy exercise (running 10km a day, martial arts training 2-3x a week). This
is probably related to fear - without that level of exercise I'm feeling
unable to even start with other habit forming activities. As others noted it's
tough to keep sticking to it.
Meditation/Relaxation: Medition is pretty hard for me. But doing relaxation
techniques like progressive muscle relaxation or even yoga and then vipassana
makes a difference for me. Never works without the heavy exercise for me
through.
As far as I remember when I was able to implement these 2 habits for a longer
period of time everything else worked quite well or at least I was able to
work on the issues. E.g. facing long worn in fears, structering your day.
Learning to plan. Actually long term planning.
If the level of stress or fear rises, everything breaks apart for me through.
It's been a pattern for some years now.
Also: Get some real friends, not people that talk only about their great ideas
for apps with you but that are honest to themselves and also struggle with
life. I'm always feeling that a lot of my issues are superficial when I'm
around other people that are working on their problems. It keeps you grounded
and gives you motivation. Maybe.
Actually I don't have a solution. But if you want to feel better about
yourself exercise and meditation worked for me.
~~~
crawfordcomeaux
I'm not feeling down on myself. I've done the exercise/meditation thing and,
to some extent, still meditate. I've been through the jazz standards of
overcoming these issues. I accept myself wholly, but also recognize that I'm
not the only person in the world for who these solutions aren't the (complete)
answer...as you said, when the level of stress/fear rises, things still fall
apart for you.
Technical solutions haven't worked for me in the past, either, but they
weren't developed for me. How did they fail for you?
------
anoncoward1975
Successful programmer (let's just say I ride a bay-area shuttle bus to work)
with the same problem here, but feel like I'm on the path to solving it.
The answer for me came (well, started: I'm working on it) through finally
going to see a therapist and working through a bunch of other stuff.
Eventually, I got to the point where the next thing bothering me was my work.
It was a relief to talk with someone who took my anxiety about it seriously:
even my wife mostly just hit me with that "oh, you're just hard on yourself-
I'm sure you're doing a great job".
I'm sure working through it for you will be different, but here's some of the
things that were helpful for me...
\- think/feel through what exactly is going on at the moment you start
avoiding work: what are you feeling? What is going on? (There's probably
something fairly logical going on, even if its solving a problem from 20 years
ago) \- maybe you had a more adversarial outlook growing up, towards
authority, school, imposed rules, some other kind of bullshit: perhaps you've
reached a point where you've outgrown the need for that \- do you think of
things in the classic Puritan-inherited good vs bad, reward vs punishment? Do
you feel guilty? My therapist often sounds fairly zen, which initially felt
vacuous, but I think I'm starting to get it: you can just be at work, in the
moment, and start working on something instead of procrastinating, and not
have it be a big struggle of willpower. \- In a similar vein, I think I grew
up thinking of myself as likely to do the wrong thing: I'll make myself eat my
vegetables, but left alone, I'd probably opt for sugar. I'll do what I'm
supposed to in school, and be the smart kid, but really, I can't trust myself
because if I drop my guard ill probably just go back to slacking. Perhaps it's
time to explore the idea of doing things out of a positive desire for mastery,
the challenge of contending with bigger problems, growth, rather than trying
to marshal your feared negative attributes into positive outcomes through
trickery, deadlines, etc. You can trust yourself more than you think.
My, that was long and navel-gazing... But I hope it helps. Hacker news is full
of "self-flagellate yourself into beating procrastination" rhetoric, and I
found that approach unhelpful, exhausting, and depressing.
One last word: take your dissatisfaction seriously: I know you are successful
and smart, but it bothered you at least enough to post here. It's going to
take hard work to rewire engrained habits and responses, but at least one
anonymous coward here is cheering for you, and has compassion for you :-)
~~~
anoncoward1975
Ugh - insert linebreaks at dashes in that mega-paragraph. Edit on ipad seems
borked.
------
bradezone
"I make $130k as a 21 year old"
Waaaaaa, poor you.
------
Misiek
Try [http://www.reddit.com/r/nofap](http://www.reddit.com/r/nofap)
~~~
procastatron
Wtf
~~~
Misiek
in your case "fap" means doing bullshit like playing games or reading news. If
you want to stop doing bullshit you should train your willpower. "No fap" is
not only about fapping but about our weaknesses.
~~~
xentronium
It's harmful for health.
------
doctorstupid
_I 'm really smart, do no work, and earn lots of money. Please help me._
How can anyone not take you for a braggart?
~~~
procastatron
I used my salary as a way of getting people more hooked into this thread. If I
was sitting on my couch all day doing nothing, I think I would have gotten
less replies.
By showing that I'm actually out there working on this and that I truly want
to do better, I believed I could generate more of a discussion from people
that have been in similar positions and want to help me.
------
tradotto
Looking back?!? You're only 21. Go find a sport league in your area, take up
skiing or rock climbing.
~~~
procastatron
Yes but look at how many great people accomplished things before they were 30.
I'm nowhere near that! Look at Ryan Holiday, he was the director of marketing
at American Apparel at fucking 20.
------
restlessmedia
Do something you enjoy? If you enjoy doing something, you won't try and find
ways to avoid doing it.
------
d4m0
Willpower is like a muscle. Work on it. Build it.
But then I'm here reading Hacker News too so......
------
ilconsigliere
Try working out (lift) first thing in the morning
~~~
procastatron
I did this for a week, it worked quite well.
However, I'm definitely not a morning person
------
nlx
Stop going to hacker news until after 5pm
~~~
apierre
Very good point, I just spent 20 minutes reading all the comments, checking
links, etc
Now, I can fill a pixel in one of my remaining boxes :-)
------
pr0filer__
A lot of swear words and superlatives.
------
grauniad
Block hackernews. Block reddit.
------
mkesper
Just do it.
Sounds easier than it is, though.
~~~
stefanve
Get another job, with smart people equally smart or smarter then you. Work for
a company that makes a product you can relate to. And work at a place the
works as a team and follow the work hard and play hard way of thinking. The
best place would be an agile environment where there is pair programming,
stand ups and a real we do it together feel is , a place where you can learn
from your co-workers and they can learn from you. The thing is is that you are
not challenged so move to a place that challenge you. You are doing stuff that
is to easy for you so you get bored.
------
throwaway973096
I won't tell you how to break your habit, but I'll tell you to do whatever you
can to break it. I'm glad that you asked for help, because it's really
important. Because I know what's ten years later. I feel like you described
exactly me when I was your age. Every. Single. Word.
Then it only gets worse. From 3 hours of real work a day to 3 days of real
work a week, then to 1 week of real work a month. This single week is of
course much more intensive and you work long hours then - either because
something you're working on really excited you and you're having fun or
because you've stretched so much all the deadlines and patience of other
people that you know you simply have to. These on/off periods are not healthy
neither to your self-feeling nor your finances nor the product or the team
you're working with.
Fast forward ten years and I'm totally broke with overdue debts high over my
head. I haven't slept well in five years and I feel like shit both physically
and mentally. I know I need some help and I don't want you to end up in this
place as well.
I still can be super productive and build great things, but the catch is I am
able to do this only when I do things that excite me (what isn't that hard as
I still have great passion for technology). Which is not always feasible at my
current job, so the end result is that I'm having super productive month or
two and then totally unproductive two-four months. My employer is not happy
with that, but they learnt to accept this as I still can be very exceptional
when I'm in my flow. The catch is I'm paid by the result so I don't earn well
in my non-productive periods.
Part of the problem probably is that they often make me to work on totally
boring stuff that should be done by totally different people and which could
be done by people with 20% of my skills and 20% of my rates. This includes
non-development and non-product related stuff, virtually everything: dev,
bizdev, product, marketing, sales, management or simple administrative tasks -
I can be good in everything I have vast experience in various areas and they
use/abuse that. I sometimes think that they do that on purpose to don't spend
too much on me and build my guilt up, as they know that throwing me into all
that variety of tasks (which highly varies by area/contexts, complexity and
required skill level) basically kills my motivation and ability to do stuff. I
know that I need to break away from this toxic relationship. Well, that is
still pending.
Anyway. I'm glad that you see your problem as a problem. I didn't see it that
way and when I started, it was already too late. Please consider this as a
warning on how you can screw up your life if you go down this path, as this
path only goes down and down. Don't waste your gifts and your life.
Find something that excites you and is so much fun that you simply want to
work on it. This will be different for different people. It may be a startup
with super exciting product or it may be a freelancing career because it might
turn out that you get bored easily and cannot enjoy a single project for long.
If you feel you're burned out, just throw it away while you can. Make a break.
Travel the world. Try a totally different career. Or simply change the job. I
am just throwing guesses here and these are just things I think might work,
but I haven't tried them (I'm in a hard position to try because of the
overwhelming debts which I need to service, so I cannot switch to anything
less paid).
Read every single post in this thread and try things that you think might work
for you. But do something about it. I keep my fingers crossed.
------
aaronbrethorst
Peace Corps.
------
zeidrich
In my experience procrastination is a behavior caused by the reinforcement of
perceived failure.
In many cases, it's the desire to stop procrastinating that you are "failing"
at, and that is discouraging. Failing to stop procrastinating makes the idea
of stopping procrastinating more trepidatious. You can overcome this with
willpower but that becomes exhausting. The fact that it is exhausting makes
more negative associations with the idea of not procrastinating and reinforces
the difficulty. Essentially, it's not that you're lazy, or that you're afraid
of the individual tasks that you have to do, it's that there's a sort of
mental hurdle that needs to be overcome to do "something" that you want to do.
I have overcome this by slowly introducing very simple routines into my life.
Routines that are all but impossible to fail.
The first was to not worry about any commitments on Saturdays, but to relax
and take a nap. After weeks of that, I was just generally having a better time
on Sundays.
I made a resolution to get coffee at a local coffee shop on Sunday Morning,
with my wife if possible, otherwise by myself.
I made a list of chores to do at home, very simple ones, and loaded it into
wsplit (a tool generally used for timing speedruns in video games). The list
is: \- Put on Music \- Clean Desk \- Empty Dishwasher \- Fill Dishwasher \-
Brush and Floss Teeth \- Clean Table \- Clean Counter \- Clean Cat Litter \-
Vacuum Living Room The tool is restrictive, it doesn't let you go back, it
only lets you progress to the next task. It also times you. I did this every
day.
I pick up flowers from a local flower shop on Mondays to put on the table.
I invite my brother over for dinner on Thursday.
I've made a list similar to the above for work.
This all might seem stupid to an outsider. And it's not at all like I was
living like a slob prior to this, but these are really juts exercises. The
fact that these are decisions that I've made in advance means that there's no
thought that needs to go into carrying them out. I don't worry about
procrastinating when I'm doing my list of chores. I go home, I start the
timer, the list tells me what I need to do, and I start doing it. My house is
always in a state of cleanliness even if surprise guests come over, and the
time it takes to complete the task shortens every day. Eventually, the task
actually becomes a source of stress relief. I know it will take me 15-30
minutes, and my house will be presentable. I know I have something for
breakfast in the morning on Sunday. I know regardless of my week that I'll be
able to recover on Saturday. I never have to make plans for Thursday. I run a
work routine twice daily, and I know that all of my e-mail will be read and my
tasks and reporting will be captured.
There are two caveats though. The first is that I have decided I won't feel
guilty for the things that I'm doing. I'm not working now, I'm posting on HN.
But I've completed my routine for the morning, so I know my status, and I have
nothing looming that I need to do. I had some pressing things and I attended
to them already because I was alerted to them when I was first doing that
routine. Procrastination only happens for me when I'm trying (but kind of
failing) to ignore the consequences of inaction, also it's exacerbated by the
feeling of an unknown multitude of tasks hanging over me. My work routine is
simple, always makes me feel more in control, but also makes me aware of what
is actually really important, and what actually has to have immediate action
taken. Because it's simple and makes me feel better, it's easy to accomplish.
Because it alerts me to those things, it makes me address them before
procrastinating.
The second is that I have decided that while these things are tasks that I do
in the evening, or on a Monday, or after lunch. They are not tasks that I
_need_ to do every evening, every Monday, or every day after lunch. The
completion of these tasks feels good, they are easy to complete, and I know
when I can do them. However, this is not a routine that needs to be
maintained. If I miss a day, or a week, or three weeks, I haven't failed
anything, I don't need to "start again" and I can always go out on Sunday and
get my coffee and sandwich.
Ultimately the result is not to use my willpower to overcome procrastination.
My goal is to reduce the need to use willpower to do most tasks, to make many
tasks that remove stress a matter of routine rather than will. This way I
conserve willpower for the leftover tasks that I don't have a routine for.
Because I have saved that willpower, it's more likely that those tasks will
succeed, and since I don't count the occasional non-productive moment as a
failure, I've stopped feeling so much that I procrastinate.
I'm sometimes unproductive, but when I am, I'm aware of the consequences and
it feels like a decision. When I decide to approach a task, I don't have that
guilty, hidden, procrastinating barrier to overcome. And not having to "beat"
procrastination gives me that much more willpower to initiate tasks.
This has been a slow process for me, over the course of a year. But the impact
on my mood and my feeling of agency has been indescribable. While before I
thought I was lazy, I just realized that I was really just exhausting myself -
straining against myself.
What I'm trying to do now is to mentally separate the resolution to do a task
from the initiation of the task. Instead of thinking "If I decide to do this,
I have to work" it's more like "This is something I need to do for this
rational reason." and then "I will start the task that I decided to do."
avoiding any consideration of what it might feel like. That's more
challenging, but it's slowly working, and I'm starting to feel good doing
"Things that I resolved to do" as opposed to "communicating with an irate
client" or "fixing the issue that has been broken for so long I'm embarrassed
that it's still not fixed". It just gets abstracted into a "Starting a task"
meme, and generally when I start a task, and proceed to the next step, it
ultimately gets completed. And fixing that embarrassing issue finally feels
great. Resolving the issue with the client feels good. And if more issues come
up, I don't worry about them, I put them on the list, when I get to my routine
I evaluate them, and then I begin them.
------
thirsday
I feel compelled to strongly disagree with all the people who are saying
"You're not a procrastinator, you're just not doing what you love." Don't
believe them.
To start with, they seem to be assuming that there can only be one cause for
this type of behavior... that you're secretly profoundly disinterested in
whatever you're doing, and that pursuing something else would fix everything.
I know that this is wrong from personal experience.
Since I graduated from high school (8 years now) I've been a professional
musician -- I've toured nationwide playing for other people, I've worked as a
studio musician, I've recorded and produced albums, both my own and other
peoples'. I've basically lived the dream job of anybody who has ever been the
least bit interested in music... the money sucks, but overall what more could
you want as far as spending your time?
I procrastinated heavily through all of it, whenever I was faced with doing
something hard (like finishing a song that didn't come easily to me, finishing
production work on a friend's album [that turned out to be a fiasco], or
actually sitting down and practicing my instrument [I basically never did]).
Most of my time I spent sitting with my laptop on my lap, browsing the
internet and reading tech blogs -- not doing things that would help me be a
better rock star.
I'm now a programmer, and in many ways it's a better fit for my skillset. The
challenges are interesting, and the money is a hell of a lot better (most
people who say you shouldn't be motivated by money haven't had a significant
lack of money to compare it to). I still struggle with procrastination. When
I'm faced with doing something hard, I... guess what... browse news and tech
blogs on the internet.
So what I love doing, and what I should actually be doing with my life is...
sitting in my underwear reading articles on the internet and occasionally
watching Hulu/Netflix? Because if I'm not "happy" being a programmer
(exercising my mind and making lots of money) and I'm not "happy" being a
fucking rock star (performing in front of people, expressing creativity, and
having comparative freedom with my time)... what the hell else is there? I'm
pretty sure there's no other secret profession out there that offers a
radically different experience -- these two jobs are pretty much on opposite
ends of the spectrum in many ways, and I've enjoyed them both... and I've
struggled with procrastination and sheer laziness at both of them.
My point with all of this is just to contradict the people who seem to imply
that if you just find the right particular thing to be doing you won't
struggle with this any longer, and that you are mis-diagnosing yourself. From
my own experience, I would say that is absolutely incorrect. ...Now you may
find areas where you may struggle with it less... I got the most excited about
working on my own band and doing my own tunes when I was a musician, but I
couldn't make a viable income doing just that. Providing for my family is also
important to me.
You and I have the same problem -- you're not misdiagnosing yourself. The good
news is that it seems like there's tons of useful info in this thread. Work on
the laziness / procrastination issues -- I'll work on them too. Hell, we can
even work on them together. Once you feel like you've made some progress or at
least understand the issue better... if you feel like you really would like to
do something other than programming, THEN make a change. As somebody who has
been a literal rock star, I feel compelled to mention that programming has a
lot of things going for it.
Comment back if you'd like to tackle any of the procrastination stuff
together.
------
rnl
Travel
------
barnaby001
how is this even being asked in 2013? this is why god invented adderall. stop
fucking around.
~~~
procastatron
When I take addy I just find myself trying to procrastinate even more. Except
then it's concentrated procrastination
------
akldjlafkjalfk
tl;dr;
------
beachstartup
> I make $130k as a 21 year old and I probably put in 3 hours of real work a
> day.
do you really think your subconscious is capable of changing when this is the
scenario it is presented with?
you say you're "pretty smart", i would say "you're just smart enough to get
away with it."
start a company. force yourself into uncomfortable situations.
~~~
greenyoda
I'm not sure that "start a company" would be good advice until he can figure
out what the causes of his lack of motivation are. Working entirely on his own
without the structure and goals of an organized workplace around him could
lead to even more procrastination.
~~~
beachstartup
yeah, it could. the business could also fail for 500 other reasons.
if he thinks he's so smart, he should try it. i dare him.
------
dschiptsov
Writing more pulp fiction could help.)
There is also a page worth reading:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disord...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder)
------
mythriel
I am in the same situation as you and I understand you better than anyone.
Someone who is not in that situation doesn't understand and they will try to
give you advice like make a list of tasks, use pomodoro or other
technique...none of them work...email me if you found a solution...i was
really thinking of going to Bali and train my discipline and brain with those
monks there and have a better life.
------
vacri
At my last work, the engineers who worked a 40-hour weeks explicitly chopped
up their work according to '20 quality hours' \- the idea is that you do 20
quality hours of work per week, the remainder of the time being taken up with
minutae, or cerebral refreshment, or urgent this or that. 3 hours/day is not
far off this number.
------
venomsnake
I got a great answer but I will write it later :)
For me the only thing that helps is intensive physical training - I am
productive when I am out of my comfort zone and being deadly tired and
miserable manages to do it. After training session I am almost in the flow
already.
------
michaelochurch
_I think part of my problem might be that I grew up with an entitlement
complex as I was valedictorian, near perfect SATs etc. and I never did shit in
high school._
Forget about that. Who you were at 17 means nothing. If you're 40 years old
and still have to mention that you went to an Ivy League school, that's not a
good thing.
It doesn't matter. No one knows who you are. The good news is that you don't
have to fear embarrassment. When you're "the smart kid" you can't afford to
look stupid. Now, you can. The world is built by ex-smart-kids who weren't
afraid to look stupid.
_I make $130k as a 21 year old and I probably put in 3 hours of real work a
day._
Also irrelevant. I think it might be part of your problem. Forget
precociousness and all that golden child bullshit, because any job that pays a
21-year-old (excluding overt nepotism/connections) that much money is going to
be stressful as fuck (and, as I'll explain, I think cumulative stress is part
of your problem). I think you might want to be moving away from the high-
stress jobs. If you actually want achievements that you can be proud of, you
won't get them in the high-stress professional gigs; you're better off
downshifting to the middling level where you're still surrounded by smart
people but no one's gunning to be a millionaire in 5 years.
_I think people are starting to realize that I 'm a bit slower than I could
be._
"People" are just as insecure as you are. They're mostly focused on their own
survival and advancement-- not sizing you up. They probably don't think about
you at all. If you stay out of their way, their evaluations (except for
management) of you don't matter at all. People won't fuck with you just
because you're working below your potential; almost _everyone_ is working
below capacity. As long as it doesn't mess up their shit, no one will fuck
with you.
What you have is _impostor syndrome_ , meaning that you think you're worse
than you actually are. The dirty secret of adult life is people are just
making it up as they go along. You're not the only one who feels "fake", and
the people who seem to have their shit together are just as shaky as you are.
_I secretly spend 7-8 hours a day doing bullshit at work (reading online,
games, etc)._
Not uncommon. Don't feel guilty. Don't try to stop per se, so much as you
should be _replacing_ less useful activities with better ones. If you say,
"I'm not going to [X]" you're setting yourself up for temptation. Better to
find things that interest you more. Maybe you could learn new technical skills
on the job. (Do your building-- that is, things where you need to own the IP--
on your own time and resources though.)
Your work environment is probably partly at fault, too. You probably spend so
much time on bullshit because you can't get in the zone with all the
distractions and interruptions and petty social anxieties that rule the day.
You've probably noticed that people who actually want to get things done at
work either (a) show up early, (b) stay late, or (c) spend a substantial
amount of time outside of the office. Very little gets done in core working
hours in the typical office, because most people are at 100% CPU on reputation
management bullshit.
Here's something you probably haven't been told about the adult world. The
reason most people hate going to work isn't the work itself. It's all the
pointless social anxiety generated by cramped offices, interruptions, the
constant need to modulate social status to precisely half a notch below one's
manager, et al. People enjoy work itself; it's a deep-seated psychological
need to feel useful and productive. It's _being at work_ that gets them down,
because full-time social climbing isn't natural or appealing to most people.
The best way to become happier at work, perhaps surprisingly, is to work
harder. That's not a platitude, though; it's hard advice to follow because
you'll actually need something that motivates you to work hard.
_I know that I 've been given a gift and that I'm a fucking idiot for wasting
it, but I've just become a chronic procrastinator and it sucks._
A very large number of people feel this way. One of the problems with Work in
most jobs is that it conditions people to associate productive activity with
subordination.
You're not a fuckup, but you've been poisoned with bad conditioning. It's not
about "willpower" as some immutable trait of a person. It's about the fact
that we're animals that respond strongly to our environment, rewards, and
punishments. (See: Stanford Prison Experiment.) There's no point in feeling
shame about this; it's just how our bodies and brains work.
_I could be changing the world but instead I 'm putting in the bare minimum_
You're not ready to "change the world". You have to improve yourself first. I
won't lie; it takes time.
Spin up a side project. Or replace your at-work videogaming with Coursera. Or
take more responsibility at work. Try to move to another team. Just do
_something_ where there will be meaningful feedback from the world. What's the
worst that can happen? If you get fired, it's still better to lose a job while
on an upswing than when comfortable (the shock of getting fired while
comfortable takes months to recover from; but if you get fired while you're
actively working hard, it's much easier to bounce back).
_Any advice on how you taught yourself to focus on tasks, build willpower,
and get shit done would be helpful._
Just try to make each day better than the last. Install RescueTime. Don't
expect miracles. Just work toward incremental improvements. Again, each day
better than the last.
_Although, I wonder if I really fucked my brain /habits up so much that I'll
never reach my full capacity._
Unlikely. You can build new habits in a couple of months, and unless you were
using a lot of drugs, you'll be fine.
Most likely, what has addled your brain is low-level but chronic social stress
from the workplace. That shit sucks, but the good news is that it only takes
about a month to recover (once you get to a better work environment). Practice
meditation to build up your resolve (and don't expect results quickly; the
contemplative path is a lifelong one).
By the way, "full capacity" is unattainable. You need down time. You need to
spend _some_ of your time playing video games and watching TV. Just focus on
quality. I generally allow time for one high-quality TV show (e.g. Breaking
Bad) but I sure as hell am not going to let myself spend 4 hours per day
watching it.
_My dad is also very similar in that he 's smart enough to bullshit through
life but he only works at 10-20% of his full capacity and he never completes
anything._
Don't worry about your parents. Just focus on yourself. One of the most
important subtasks of recovering your emotional health is to stop dwelling on
details irrelevant to the task at hand. Observe, but never stew. Your father
can take care of his own life; you need to focus on yours.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Developers, beware. Facebook really is the new Microsoft - nickb
http://valleywag.com/tech/facebook/developers-beware-facebook-really-is-the-new-microsoft-283941.php
======
paulgb
I don't see what the problem is. If I recall correctly, the videos application
was developed in-house before the platform was ever released to third-party
developers. Because videos and other applications started building their own
walls, facebook opened the wall for platform users. This is a good thing for
developers, not a bad thing.
The statement that "Facebook engineers will detect it, copy the functionality,
and render your app pointless" is a pretty wild claim to make without backing
it up with evidence.
~~~
aston
The complaint is not about Video, but about enhancements to the Wall made
recently which were clearly based on 3rd party apps. I think that's evidence
enough to make the statement. I just saw a Techcrunch write-up of Superwall
the other day. I'm sure they're less than happy about being encroached upon.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Barter Exchanges - Startup Idea - mhb
http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2011/03/unemployment-recessions-and-barter-a-test.html
======
yummyfajitas
Interesting idea, but it presumes that our current recession is caused by
insufficient liquidity.
Most of the evidence suggests that the liquidity-induced portion of our
recession is over (AD/production/etc have recovered). Our high unemployment
appears to be caused mainly by the fact that many workers produce little of
value and it is hard for such workers to find jobs.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
The first pictures of blood from a 10,000 year old Siberian woolly mammoth - phowat
http://siberiantimes.com/science/casestudy/news/exclusive-the-first-pictures-of-blood-from-a-10000-year-old-siberian-woolly-mammoth/
======
endtwist
The most interesting part of that article is the non-chalant last line: "Once
the [wooly mammoth's] tissues have been treated to a nuclear transfer process,
the eggs will be implanted into the womb of a live elephant for a 22-month
pregnancy."
Cloning wooly mammoths! Now that is cool.
~~~
uvdiv
The line before that is even more interesting:
_Stem cell scientist Hwang Woo-suk's private bioengineering laboratory
confirmed he is poised to make a bid to return the extinct Siberian mammoth to
the planet._
Hwang Woo-suk is an extremely famous scientific _fraud_.
[http://www.time.com/time/covers/asia/0,16641,20060109,00.htm...](http://www.time.com/time/covers/asia/0,16641,20060109,00.html)
<http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/27/world/asia/27clone.html>
<http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2006/11/28-01.html>
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hwang_Woo-suk>
_SEOUL, South Korea — Hwang Woo-suk, a disgraced cloning expert from South
Korea who had claimed major breakthroughs in stem-cell research, was convicted
Monday of falsifying his papers and embezzling government research funds. A
judge sentenced him to a suspended two-year prison term, saying Dr. Hwang had
shown remorse and had not taken research money for personal use._
_Dr. Hwang was once hailed as a national hero in the South. His school, Seoul
National University, disowned him in 2005, saying that he had fabricated the
papers he had published to global acclaim._
~~~
ChuckMcM
One wonders though, his research was shown to be fraudulent but is his skill
fraudulent? I mean guy the might be an excellent cell biologist that tried to
short cut his way to fame and got caught, or he might be a complete fraud and
not even be a passable biologist. Trying to find stuff about the man is
difficult through all the articles about his downfall.
~~~
uvdiv
_or he might be a complete fraud and not even be a passable biologist_
He's genuinely one of the top researchers in the field (see: cloned dog).
~~~
ignostic
The first cloned dog, in fact.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snuppy>
------
loupeabody
I'm a little but confused by the nature of how further
research/experimentation will proceed. Namely why the _rights_ to clone were
_sold_ after the discovery.
Presumably, given how radical this discovery is, the opportunity to clone an
extinct species would be given to the most capable scientific institution on
the planet, not for the highest bidder... Maybe the South Koreans qualify as
the most capable, I don't really know. Or perhaps my vision of the
international science community is just naive.
~~~
bionsuba
They were sold because that body belonged to someone (or some group) due to it
being on their property. One cannot just go on somebody's property and take
whatever they find and give it to anyone else in the name of "scientific
discovery".
~~~
loupeabody
No, I get that, sorry if I didn't make my understanding clear. I had just
previously assumed that discoveries of this magnitude are treated with a
degree of import that supersedes commercial interest. I don't find it
unethical or anything like that. As you say, it's their property.
After reading this [0], found from an above comment, it's clear that cloning
endeavors are generally private initiatives. In my mind, this discovery was
similar to unearthing ruins or something, but nothing's sacred [1].
[0] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrenean_ibex#Cloning_project> [1]
[http://www.peruthisweek.com/news-3743-peru-heavy-
machinery-d...](http://www.peruthisweek.com/news-3743-peru-heavy-machinery-
destroys-nazca-lines/)
------
coldcode
How many clones of different DNA would you need to produce a viable herd?
Otherwise wooly mammoth coats and steaks will be really expensive.
~~~
lettergram
They should be able to simply basically guess and check with the DNA, making
small manipulations and seeing if it is enough to produce a viable herd.
Also inbreeding might work itself to produce a viable herd.
~~~
Scriptor
It's much more difficult than that. The biggest issue is finding where exactly
to make the changes. Even then, we don't necessarily know what the phenotype,
the eventual outcome, of making a change will be.
There are two versions of each gene (because there are two of each
chromosome), what often happens is that even if one version of the gene is
defective, the other version is enough to compensate.
Now, say you have two individuals, each one has one working and one defective
version of a gene. If you cross those individuals 25% of the offspring will
have two copies of the "good" version, 50% will have one good and one
defective copy, and 25% will be unlucky and have two versions of the defective
version. This is just regular Mendelian genetics so you might have heard all
this before. However, it sets up why crossing two clones can be risky.
So, in the above example 75% of offspring will be fine. Sounds pretty good,
right? But that's only when considering one gene. A mammoth likely has tens of
thousands of genes. This particular one can be carrying any number of
defective versions of each of those genes. Crossing it with an exact genetic
copy would mean that the risk of having an offspring with a genetic defect is
that much higher.
However, it might not be all that bad. Entire viable populations have likely
descended from something like a pregnant female floating on a raft to a new
island. If they can extract blood from even one other mammoth, that might be
just enough to create healthy enough offspring. The main barrier is the
gestation time and generation time. Two fertile rats stranded on an island
with plenty of food can reproduce fast enough to quickly create a good
population that might be able to overcome low genetic diversity through sheer
numbers. Trying to raise enough mammoths will be much more expensive and much
more time-consuming.
~~~
BoppreH
Isn't the lack of an opposite gender DNA a problem?
------
davidw
Wow, that would be so cool - imaging going to the zoo to see one, something
people 20 years ago had absolutely no hope of doing.
~~~
kolinko
well, there was this guy who made a movie on the subject...
~~~
Symmetry
Thankfully, unlike with dinosaurs we know that humans are quite capable of
hunting mammoths to extinction if we want to.
~~~
jff
I have absolutely no doubt that humans could effectively eliminate a wild
dinosaur population in short order. Think of the trophy mounts!
~~~
encoderer
Hear, Hear. If there's one thing we humans are good at, it's genocide and
slaughter.
~~~
jff
Well, you don't rise to the top of the food chain unless you're able to kill
every other animal out there.
Hail to the king, baby.
------
uptown
Anybody know if the DNA structure of species that are approaching extinction
being preserved for possible regeneration at some point in the future?
~~~
rocky1138
I'm not certain, but they're probably stored in that facility in northern
Norway, Svalbard: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svalbard_Global_Seed_Vault>
------
marcosscriven
I'm not sure if this is fair, but it strikes me as somewhat slapdash to take a
sample right there in the field. Also, while there is red liquid, what's the
chances it contains actual viable DNA, rather than what amount to DNA
fragments and a bit of haemoglobin?
~~~
mapt
With modern sequencing, are a large quantity of 'DNA fragments' sufficient for
full nuclear genome replication?
edit: Make that two questions: one for 'full nuclear genome replication' and
one for 'full nuclear genome sequencing'.
~~~
mapt
So how about for replication?
Have we developed the tech to go from mammal -> digital genome sequence ->
physical replicated chromosome -> egg implanted with chromosome ->
developmentally normal mammal -> fertile offspring, yet, or is that somewhere
in the future?
~~~
jamesjporter
No. That chain ends at the second step "digital genome sequence". In
principle, we could synthesize a bunch of DNA strands corresponding to the
genomic sequences and ligate them all together (although it would be absurdly
expensive and laborious), but this would not constitute a chromosome.
Eukaryotic chromosomes are organized in the nucleus by a huge variety of
scaffolding and modifying factors (histones, etc.) into structures called
chromatin. Recapturing this from sequence data is impossible, even in
principle; the information is just not there. Indeed, understanding nuclear
organization at a bunch of different leves is one of the big challenges of
modern genetic research.
------
lettergram
The chances of finding a strand of DNA for replication in that is next to
none...
But i'll keep my fingers crossed
------
wam
Audio of Stewart Brand's recent Long Now Foundation talk about reviving
extinct species:
[http://longnow.org/seminars/02013/may/21/reviving-extinct-
sp...](http://longnow.org/seminars/02013/may/21/reviving-extinct-species/)
------
circa
when does Jurassic Park: Woolly Mammoth 3D come out now?
~~~
andalf
What if the electricity goes out in the park?!
~~~
stephengillie
That's why we put it on an island.
~~~
waldrews
Elephants can swim. Like, really well.
~~~
jonahx
They use their trunks as snorkels
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
LA Speed Check, Becoming a Crew - slowhand09
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lg73GKm7GgI
======
ColinWright
The video is put together nicely, but for those of you who prefer the written
word:
[https://www.thesr71blackbird.com/Aircraft/Stories/sr-71-blac...](https://www.thesr71blackbird.com/Aircraft/Stories/sr-71-blackbird-
speed-check-story)
As told by:
Major Brian Shul, USAF Retired
~~~
slowhand09
Thanks for posting this. This is one of many stories in the book "Sled
Driver", by Brian Shul. BTW, Hardcover prices have dropped, really. 11 Used
from $345.55 1 New from $999.00 from Amazon
------
slowhand09
A nice diversion, just in case you haven't heard the story... Or because it
never gets old. From Sled Driver.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Assume You're Wrong - adamb0mb1
http://verbadam.com/assume-youre-wrong
======
Jemaclus
This is great advice. Just today I had a similar issue. I wrote some code a
long time ago, and a new coworker who started about a month ago comes up to me
and proposes an alternate solution. He asked why we didn't do it this way
instead of the way we were doing it now. In his mind, his solution made
perfect sense.
I knew I was right, and I knew my solution was the best solution, because I'd
spent months thinking of all the possible ways to solve the problem, and this
was the best of them all.
But the point is that he asked, and the point is that I had to revisit that
decision. I considered what he said, and I explained my rationale for going
with my solution. By the time I was done, he was nodding along and saying
"Yeah, that makes perfect sense."
I think it's okay to be right and to know you're right, but if someone
questions you, or if a test fails, or if conversions go down, you should be
willing to stop and re-examine your assumptions, and if necessary, explain
them again.
I'm very glad my coworker brought his ideas to me, because it validates that
my solution was, in fact, correct. And if my solution hadn't been the best
choice, he would have brought a better solution. So in the end, it's a win-
win...
Assuming you're wrong at first blush is almost always the right move. It lets
you consider alternate solutions, and hopefully rebuild your defense of your
current solution. If it still holds up, you're good. If not, your new
assumption is right (that you're wrong).
I think I have a headache now.
I also have a similar rule, but from a slightly different perspective. I
credit it as one of the reasons for me being as successful at my company as I
am.
When someone comes to me and says there is a problem with the app, I assume
it's my fault. I assume it's a code problem. I rule out any responsibility on
my part (or that of my team) before I go back to the complainer and ask them
for more information. I never, ever, ever say "it works for me."
Remember: people don't complain about things that work. Even if it's their
fault, even if they screwed something up, even if it's not your code that's
broken, something isn't working for __them __. If it 's not working for _them_
, then it's up to you to figure out why. It may be that your instructions were
unclear, or maybe it's a client-side issue (like an ad-blocker) that you can't
reproduce. Or maybe your customer really is a moron.
But before I ever go back to someone and tell them I'm good, I make sure all
my ducks are in a row. The last thing I want is to belittle someone else's
problem because I think I'm awesome.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Lessons learned: writing really long fiction - wellokthen
http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2019/03/lessons-learned-writing-really.html
======
jonathanstrange
I'm writing German science fiction novels as a hobby that are around 700-800
norm pages each and learned the hard way that at least in the German
publishing market there are virtually no program places for science fiction,
very few agencies accept manuscripts in that genre at all, and publishers
rarely accept novels larger than 400 norm pages from a first-time writer.
I'm currently sitting on 8 manuscripts - two of them are actually 1400 norm
pages each. I'm writing on my ninth novel now and will one day give away all
of them for free. The problem is that correcting and finalizing them into book
form (e.g. typsetting in LaTeX) takes too much of my spare time.
I'm just writing this as a friendly advise. At least for smaller markets like
the German one, do not ever expect to be able to make any substantial amounts
of money from your writing hobby. The trend is against it, and it's much
cheaper and less risky for publishers to get a successful US writer translated
than to accept a new local one. People are also reading way more English
originals than they used to. Besides, agencies are looking for urban fiction,
"novels for young women", gift books, etc. (Before you ask, agencies have
attested me that the quality of my writing is fine, but what they say and what
they think are two things and this may also play a major role.)
Of course, it's still my favourite hobby. Once you start you cannot stop. I
don't think that any particular lessons can be learned, because everybody
writes in a different way and under different circumstances. The bottomline is
that it's not hard to write a lot. ;)
~~~
restalis
Here's a market strategy: write off-shots of your long novels as teasers. Make
them tasty (as their primary reason is to give the readers a taste for the
main piece), make them as close in style as possible to the main work,
although you may focus on different aspects in each of them, and lastly - make
them convergent (towards something that "happens" to be missing). Let's say
shorter stories around some independent characters which at some point get in
contact with one main work character somewhere at the end of the novel. Make
that interaction stand out and the main work character larger than life in
some way. The shorter novels should be easier to push onto market, maybe even
independently, and should provide the necessary ground for rolling out the
main work. Heck, that should be THE publishers' advice for first-time writers
out there.
~~~
Cthulhu_
I'm not a writer, but I don't get why first-time writers - as in, first time
they're trying to get their works published, not that they've only now tried
to write a book - try to do too much as their first project.
I think they should really force themselves to start with short stories first;
focus on finishing a story. That avoids a sunk cost, avoids people beating
themselves up for what they believe is their life's work getting rejected by
publishers (for e.g. being too long), etc.
Same with software development; it's easy to write big chunks of code, it's
hard to get that to production.
~~~
kbenson
I've always heard that writing a good short story is actually quite a bit
harder than a novel, since you have to be fairly ruthless about what you
include and leave out to have enough room for the essential components. A
novel's plot can meander for a while, and it still might be good or okay. A
short story's plot that meanders either isn't short anymore or doesn't go
anywhere in the space it has.
------
dalbasal
I'm slightly surprised that non-sequential series (eg Pratchett's discworld)
are not more common. The 3rd book in a sequential series can't become the most
read one, but it can in a nonsequential one. It also lessens pressure to make
all the books thematically build up to a single literary work with a climactic
payoff to all earlier plots. When things do add up, and chekhov's proverbial
gun finally goes off in a nonsequential sequal, it's an easter egg.
If the second book in your trilogy sucked, it sinks the 3rd.
That doesn't mean I don't like reading series, but they do seem stressful for
the author.
~~~
NeedMoreTea
Same, as one badly constructed book (or season of a TV series) can ruin the
whole lot if they're all sequential.
It's become so much of a trope that it's become a pet hate. I actively avoid
buying any that is "first of..." now, no matter how famous you are. The few
times I break this rule, I generally regret it. Most trilogies are just a
book, heavily padded. So I simply won't buy unless all are written, and well
reviewed. Then, do I buy all or none.
There are _just a tiny few_ that deserve it. Archer's Clifton Chronicles,
Follett's Century Trilogy, Stross' own Merchant Princes (1-6 anyway, skip the
new ones) were all marvellous and fully deserved a series. Yet most are
unworthy. Song of Ice and Fire - great idea, so much padding and so little
direction. Good book, awful series. I forget where I gave up. Cornwell's The
Saxon Stories was mostly great, but I preferred the battle by battle
progression of Sharpe without having to achieve perfect continuity or care
much what order I read them.
Much prefer the random peeks into a universe approach of Sharpe, Discworld, or
Follett with the Kingsbridge series where there's hundreds of years between
the books. Or Adam's HHGTTG leaping all over the galaxy with continuity that
can leave Marvin in a car park for a millennium. Even Charles Stross reads far
better if simply ignoring Laundry Files as series. Lots of unconnected
episodes and forget the underlying destination or continuity. It's the only
way I can carry on when there's been two books that _really_ didn't work.
Well, more one book and one ending that failed hard.
Atrocity Archives and the other Bob books were some of the most entertaining,
delightfully observed comedy fiction I've read. Nightmare Stacks didn't really
join up, but was a rollicking good tale, and some interesting new characters.
Labyrinth Index on the other hand, was disjointed and unfinishable (The only
book from Charles, one of my favourite authors, I can't finish). It should
have been a book of Alex, Bob or Cassie. Anyone but Mhari, who might have
worked here if given a red shirt to die spectacularly in chapter 2. She's not
even anything like the Mhari as created in previous books.
The only way I can react to that is simply ignore as series, tuning out
continuity, or stop buying.
~~~
gwbas1c
I loved the Star Wars prequels...
That being said, I very rarely get into series unless I'm familiar with the
author / director.
I've just gotten tired of slogging through to the end when a book / movie / TV
show series should have ended a long time ago.
------
mindcrime
I'm actually starting to kinda dislike long series in sci-fi and fantasy,
because the time commitment to finish them is just so high. I still have one
more book to read in the _Wheel of Time_ series, and after that I'm really
reluctant to start another long fantasy series anytime soon. But it seems like
every fantasy novel I pick up off the shelf says "Book x of the $FOO
series..." Uuuggh. I'd like to plead with fantasy and sci-fi authors to write
more standalone novels that are very explicitly meant to _not_ be part of a
series.
~~~
jerf
I don't think it's the authors doing it. It's the publishers. cstross alludes
to that in his post as well.
It occurs to me that a modern publishing deal for a new author isn't entirely
unlike the VC deals we talk about here on HN. Yeah, the publishers might sign
you for 2 books in a trilogy, but you just promised to be a unicorn in the
process. The startup world is probably more friendly to serial entrepreneurs
than the publishing world is to those authors, though; I haven't seen many
discussions of this but I bet you basically get one chance at that deal before
they move on to the next author.
~~~
mindcrime
_It 's the publishers._
That's a fair point, and I should have phrased it that way in my post. Too
late to edit now, but I agree, it's not all on the authors.
------
V-2
_> Burnout is a very real thing in most creative industries, and if you work
for a duration of years to decades on a single project you will experience
periods of deep existential nausea and dread at the mere thought of even
looking at the thing you just spent the last five years of your life on._
It immediately reminded me of this great (and short) sketch by The Onion :)
[https://youtu.be/qXD9HnrNrvk](https://youtu.be/qXD9HnrNrvk)
------
deanalevitt
Oddly enough, I believe there are a number of lessons that crossover between
tech and writing. Having written a novel, and built companies, they both
require similar skills in terms of planning, patience, MVP (first draft),
rushing to market, incremental improvement, shipping regularly etc.
~~~
buf
Can you talk about rushing to market in terms of writing a book? Wouldn't a
well defined marketing campaign serve better?
~~~
SolaceQuantum
IME it is important to actually complete a work in order to begin the editing,
beta-reading, etc. process. Very rarely will one come across a writer who does
not need to spend significant amounts of time polishing their piece- often
more time to polish than the writing time. It is often more efficient to
minimize time writing and maximise time editing. Marketing in fiction is often
in the form of novel-swaps, blog-reviews, and book signings- in other words
you need at least one piece published or in-the-publishing-process in order to
hype your work.
------
QuamStiver
I will note that basic Buddhism and the Gnosticism appear to agree.
The first noble truth of Buddhism can either be rendered as "suffering is
inevitable," or "life is unsatisfactory." In my limited understanding of
Gnosticism, The other three truths are that suffering is caused by a
misunderstanding of our essential nature, that liberation from this suffering
is possible, and that there's a path anyone can follow to attain this
liberation.
In Gnosticism (per Wikipedia) that all matter is evil, and the non-material,
spirit-realm is good. There is an unknowable God, who gave rise to many lesser
spirit beings called Aeons. The creator of the (material) universe is not the
supreme god, but an inferior spirit (the Demiurge). Gnosticism does not deal
with "sin," only ignorance. To achieve salvation, one needs gnosis
(knowledge).
Look kinda similar, do they not? While there's no evidence that Buddhist
thought directly created Gnosticism, Buddhism had been around for a few
centuries by the time Gnostic Christianity appeared, and even though there
weren't many Buddhists in the Roman empire, there were Buddhists in
Afghanistan by around the time of Alexander, and some of the monks were known
to be Greek. I'd also point out that Mani (creator of Manichaeism) cited both
Jesus and Buddha as inspirations. Anyway, long story short, these ideas were
percolating throughout the civilized world in later classical times, so I'm
not surprised that some Christians tried to incorporate them in their
practices. Same thing happens today, for instance with the "Jubus" (Jewish
Buddhists).
~~~
scroot
There is a pretty good book by Karen Armstrong called "The Great
Transformation" that looks at why all of this seemed to happen around the same
time across different cultures and religions.
------
ilamont
I really enjoyed reading this. I like Stross' nonfiction work and wasn't aware
that he wrote sci-fi, which I will now have to check out.
A couple things to add, as a writer and publisher:
* There are all kinds of tools to help writers get going. I have twice used NaNoWriMo ([https://www.nanowrimo.org](https://www.nanowrimo.org)) to force myself to get fiction and nonfiction ideas from outline to rough draft. I also found the writing program Scrivener ([https://www.literatureandlatte.com/scrivener/overview](https://www.literatureandlatte.com/scrivener/overview)) to be very good for organizing fiction chapters, characters, spinoff short stories, etc.
* Short science fiction is unsurprisingly far easier to write but difficult to find a market for. The remaining publications and anthologies are swamped with quality submissions, and no one goes to Amazon to buy short stories. Some people publish to Wattpad or their own blogs, but there's a chicken/egg problem to contend with and Wattpad requires constant effort to curate an audience.
* The Kindle store, especially Kindle Unlimited, has tons of scifi series, many from new authors. Unfortunately, I've found some of them to be lacking in depth and character development. I'm not sure if that's because they aren't properly edited, or they are "writing to market," i.e. giving people what they want (lots of series with keywords stuffed into the title, like "hard science fiction" or "space opera"). This is a matter of personal taste; I see that many of the same series have hundreds or even thousands of positive reviews which seem sincere.
~~~
dghf
> I like Stross' nonfiction work and wasn't aware that he wrote sci-fi
I'm the reverse: I only know his sci-fi, and wasn't aware he wrote nonfiction.
What would you recommend?
~~~
arethuza
According to the bibliography on wikipedia the only non-fiction I can see is
"The Web Architect's Handbook" \- from 1996
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Stross_bibliography#No...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Stross_bibliography#Non-
fiction)
------
montenegrohugo
Quoting:
> In some cases the decline is much steeper—30-40% from episode to episode: I
> speak from experience. This isn't just theoretical: it's why there won't be
> a third book in the series beginning with "Saturn's Children" and "Neptune's
> Brood": they sold okay in the USA, but then I changed US publisher—and the
> British sales took a 40% dive between book 1 and book 2, so I couldn't fall
> back on the UK market.
>
> A series where the sales figures of book n are the same as book n-1, n-2 ..
> 1 are flat is worth persisting with, because it's bucking the market trend
> and not stagnating. And a series where the sales figures actually grow from
> book to book is a prize beyond compare.
I don't quite agree with this. Of course there will be a falloff between
entries in a series, but that does not mean that writing an additional book is
a wasted effort. The potential sales of n+1 book get added to all the books
coming before n, with corresponding % loss of readership between books. So,
one should also add the increase in sales in all the books coming before the
new release.
~~~
mannykannot
I am not sure I follow you here - are you saying that when a book is added to
a series, it tends to generate new readers for its predecessors? I would guess
that, unless the new book significantly enhances the awareness or prestige of
the series, it would have little effect on the sales of earlier episodes.
Otherwise, regardless of how good it is in its own right, I doubt it is likely
to attract readers who have not already read its predecessors.
~~~
sethammons
It might be of little effect, but I specifically target series. A set of nine
will beat out a pair for me. I'm hooked on Brandon Sanderson partly due to the
interlinking between his different series.
~~~
montenegrohugo
Exactly. Especially in SF and Fantasy, series present a much more attractive
target. You know the author has put in some love & effort into the books, and
you know that the effort YOU put into learning the world and your emotional
investment into the characters won't be wasted.
You might of course still drop it after the 2nd or 3rd (or even during the
1st) book due to various reasons (you didn't like it, found something better,
were busy, family emergency etc..), but the nth+1 book still influenced in
that first sale.
~~~
TheOtherHobbes
Paper book retail has complicated shelving and buying rules which make it a
winner's game.
A tiny percentage of the most popular writers gets reprints, new editions, and
shelf space. For new writers, the process is more like a sales audition.
And it's a very short audition. If a new title doesn't show serious sales
momentum within a few weeks, most copies will be returned, and the odds of a
follow-up title from that author go down rapidly.
Virtually all of the n-ologies you see in the bigger stores are already best
sellers, and the publishers and the store buyers have both said "Give us more
of the same" because previous sales were strong enough.
Some markets - like romance, and sometimes fantasy - have more complicated
rules. Store buyers typically buy a consignment from a publisher, and authors
can sometimes find themselves sneaking into a consignment without being
anyone's first choice.
------
petey283
As an avid sci-fi reader this is providing so many answers to my recurring
frustrations whenever books series don't get a sequel. I don't think I truly
understood that there were important business and human capital constraints.
------
e12e
Aww, the perils of letting the market steer compensation for authors. I really
enjoyed Neptune's Brood - sorry to se the series cut short by such
trivialities as sales numbers.
Completely understandable, obviously.
Very interesting article, thank you for sharing.
------
vectorEQ
really interesting to me. i don't write, but it shares a lot of commonalities
if i read this with other large / long term projects one can do (which i think
a lot of IT people / programmers can relate to). thanks for sharing this
interesting piece!
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Quit Your Job for a Better One? Not If You Live in Idaho - dmode
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/14/business/economy/boise-idaho-noncompete-law.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=second-column-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news
======
Boothroid
Non-compete agreements are one step away from slavery in my opinion - a person
should be free to sell their labour to whomever they choose.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
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VS Ramachandran on Your Mind - vinutheraj
http://www.ted.com/talks/vilayanur_ramachandran_on_your_mind.html
======
prat
Great guy. Gotta get his book "Phantoms in the Brain: Probing the Mysteries of
the Human Mind"
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Tesla Plans to Acquire Maxwell Technologies in Deal Valued at $218M - Elof
http://fortune.com/2019/02/04/tesla-maxwell-technologies/
======
Elof
I’m hopeful that this means Tesla will Open Source Maxwell’s patients -
[https://patents.justia.com/assignee/maxwell-technologies-
inc](https://patents.justia.com/assignee/maxwell-technologies-inc)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Time 100: Moot, by Rick Astley (Not Online Poll) - frisco
http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1894410_1893837_1894180,00.html
======
SwellJoe
Rick Astley is so much cooler than Chuck Norris, it's not even funny.
~~~
buugs
Usually you can find some humor in chuck norris jokes the first time you hear
them I never liked the rickrolling phase of the internet.
~~~
SwellJoe
I'm not speaking of the jokes. I'm speaking of the difference in the way they
used their renewed fame. Norris used it for evil, Astley for lulz. Astley is
much cooler than Norris.
References:
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjYv2YW6azE>
[http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=525...](http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=52567)
Chuck Norris is a tool.
~~~
mahmud
No kidding. I read that second link and the man thinks that jokes about him
are literal statements.
~~~
mynameishere
Yeah, that's why he puts scare quotes around "facts" and calls them "harmless
fun".
~~~
Zev
And proceeded to pick at various quotes involving evolution, tears and a few
other topics to push religion onto people.
In comparison, Astley discussed how ridiculous fashion was back then.
------
frisco
I don't know if it's new or not, but having the icons write about each other
is definitely very cool. Bill Gates on Jeff Bezos, Gordon Brown on Barack
Obama, even Rick Astley on moot -- it's different and really interesting.
------
shizcakes
I find it impressive after Time totally drops the ball on being able to
protect their web voting app, that they are still in touch enough to have
Astley write about moot.
I enjoyed the article but I more enjoyed the notion of someone at Time having
the 'last laugh'.
~~~
DougBTX
Well... moot _is_ influential enough to win the Time 100 poll... It isn't as
if political or social influence is always above board either.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
On Anger, Disgust, and Love: Interview with Martha Nussbaum - Hooke
http://emotionresearcher.com/on-anger-disgust-love/
======
yestoallthat
> I argue that political love needs to be particularistic in this way, but
> that care must always be taken to harness that particular love to good moral
> principles and keep people moving back and forth. Good political rhetoric
> does this instinctively, and I study many cases. Think of Martin Luther
> King, Jr.’s “I have a dream” speech. If Rawls had written it as an abstract
> structure of principle, the civil rights movement would never have
> succeeded. It was the soaring particular poetry, the rhythm of the language,
> its ability to capture Biblical images of love and justice, that made hearts
> leap out of their narrow breasts and soar toward something beautiful. Good
> thinkers have to do this each in their own context.
What? Never would have happened? So Malcolm X was totally lying when he
described [
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kf7fujM4ag](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kf7fujM4ag)
] how it was bubbling at every street corner, while King and others squabbled
about money, and that it was for _fear_ of people walking on Washington and
shutting it down that suddenly it was channeled into some kumbaya style thing?
I'm not a huge fan of his, maybe I find him racist, I don't know, but I can't
deny the principledness and energy, and I find his version of events way more
realistic than "an impassioned speech making people realize they didn't want
to be treated like shit anymore".
But actually, I quoted the above because it reminded me of a thinker who might
disagree:
> _What frightened me in your essay was the gospel of love which you begin to
> preach at the end. In politics, love is a stranger, and when it intrudes
> upon it nothing is being achieved except hypocrisy. All the characteristics
> you stress in the Negro people: their beauty, their capacity for joy, their
> warmth, and their humanity, are well-known characteristics of all oppressed
> people. They grow out of suffering and they are the proudest possession of
> all pariahs. Unfortunately, they have never survived the hour of liberation
> by even five minutes. Hatred and love belong together, and they are both
> destructive; you can afford them only in the private and, as a people, only
> so long as you are not free._
\-- Hannah Arendt, Letter to James Baldwin, November 21, 1962
------
hyperliner
"I think that Democrats are sometimes guilty of playing on fear and anger too,
for example a resentful desire to smash elites without any realistic
constructive analysis. I think that Sanders is admirable in many ways, but by
inviting people to feel anger and in a sense fear of elites, and then offering
them only hopelessly unworkable programs, he encouraged emotional
irresponsibility."
------
myegorov
I could never understand how anyone can find Nussbaum's writings as remotely
interesting. "For those who like that sort of thing, that's the sort of thing
they like."
~~~
throwaway123561
> "In terms of writing for newspapers or doing press interviews, the best
> in my experience are India, Italy, Germany, and Belgium"
The only reason she has such a media presence in India is because she is
white. The stupidity of American academics on all matters Indian is almost too
astonishing to believe - that goes for her pal Amartya Sen as well. Anyone who
has any understanding of this cult (yes I use that word after due
consideration) hates them with passion.
~~~
Baeocystin
Out of curiosity- any English sources of writing about India you would
recommend?
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Publix cake ordering UI's obscenity filter rejects mom's 'summa cum laude' cake - bmpafa
https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/nation/2018/05/22/grocery-store-censors-cake-with-request-for-summa-cum-laude/npFzLAzg2b7w54247o3MIO/story.html
======
metalliqaz
> Jacob was ‘‘absolutely humiliated,’’ Koscinski said.
Oh please.
> the Charleston, S.C., student graduated from his Christian-based homeschool
> program with a 4.89 grade point average
OK, now it makes sense.
~~~
zck
I imagine he was embarrassed, but not because of what was on the cake.
> Cara Koscinski said she then had to explain why the grocery store censored
> ‘‘cum’’ from Jacob’s cake to her 70-year-old mother while Jacob’s friends
> laughed uncontrollably.
------
towndrunk
I didn't read the article but could you not just call Publix and order the
cake over the phone?
------
amhokies
Yeah, a profanity filter sure is a sophisticated algorithm.
------
jiveturkey
this is what passes for newsworthy? on HN even?
~~~
bmpafa
I'm not sure what 'newsworthy' means these days, but I thought it was suitable
HN because the point if failure was the user input validations on the website.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
No Intelligent Aliens Detected in Gliese 581 - phreeza
http://news.discovery.com/space/no-intelligent-aliens-in-gleise-581-are-home-120602.html
======
tzs
I now think there might be a decent chance we really are alone, after reading
this interesting timeline of the far future:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_far_future>
We've only got one sample to generalize from, so let's take a look at this
history of life on Earth. Complex single cell life is about 2 billion years
old. Multicellular life is about a billion years old. Complex animals are
about half a billion years old.
In about 600 million years (assuming no intelligence intervenes) decreasing
CO2 levels will make C3 photosynthesis impossible. Almost all plants will then
die. That will be bad news for most animal life, too.
By 800 million years from now, C4 photosynthesis will no longer be possible,
and all plants go, followed by free oxygen, and we lose all multicellular
life.
If that's typical for planets that can bear life, there isn't a big window for
intelligence to develop. From complex animals to the end of multicellular life
is only about 1.3 billion years.
In that time, you'll have a few super volcanoes and asteroid impacts and
irradiations from nearby supernovas and several trips of your solar system
around its galactic orbit (each of which can have a period of exposure to the
galactic bow shock, which some scientists think causes dangerous levels of
cosmic rays)--plenty of opportunities for a major extinction event to shake
things up. Note that humans barely made it--the Toba super volcano around 70k
years ago is though to have reduced humanity to between 1k and 10k breeding
pairs.
It seems quite possible that we got lucky, and developed intelligence much
faster than would by typical, and that a species on a more normal pace to
intelligence simply doesn't have time to evolve it before their planet becomes
incapable of supporting multicellular life.
Of course, it is also possible that we were slow, and that elsewhere the first
complex animals to evolve go on to develop intelligence, in which case the
galaxy could easily be full of intelligent life.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Who is Anna-Senpai, the Mirai Worm Author? - chopin
https://krebsonsecurity.com/2017/01/who-is-anna-senpai-the-mirai-worm-author
======
ploggingdev
Previous discussion :
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13428824](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13428824)
Mods, the current url points to somewhere in the middle (contains a #).
Consider editing the url to point to [https://krebsonsecurity.com/2017/01/who-
is-anna-senpai-the-m...](https://krebsonsecurity.com/2017/01/who-is-anna-
senpai-the-mirai-worm-author/)
The article makes for a fascinating read (could form the basis of a Social
Network style movie), and also brings up the topic of IoT security. IoT
devices in usage are only going to increase in number, so if the manufacturers
don't get their act together, multi TBps DDoS capable botnets operated by
teenagers will become the new normal.
Links worth mentioning:
AnnaSenpai 5 days ago on reddit (story adds up) :
[https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/5nqq3c/serious_p...](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/5nqq3c/serious_people_whove_written_malicious_code/dce7rh9/)
Chat between AnnaSenpai and a victim: [https://krebsonsecurity.com/wp-
content/uploads/2017/01/annas...](https://krebsonsecurity.com/wp-
content/uploads/2017/01/annasenpaichat.txt)
~~~
SomeStupidPoint
I often feel that crimes "committed by teenagers" are a distraction from the
real criminals.
Let's look at drugs, for instance: a lot of teenagers are used as street
dealers and runners, because they're new to an organization, easily
replaceable, and shield key people from liability.
As a youngster online, I found a lot of tools that contained backdoors or
takeover methods, and my suspicion always was that older, professional hackers
were dangling toys out there so we'd do a lot of their dirty work setting up
botnets and providing cover noise so they could hide behind our actions in a
similar manner.
~~~
SCHiM
It's an old trick. In the cybercriminal world there's a service called
'crypting'. It's used to delay or remove detection of malware samples by anti-
virus products. It's easy to build one with the right technical skills.
It's one of four things that you need for a succesfull campaign really:
A viable piece of malware (nowadays probably ransomware, in the past it was banking malware)
Infrastructure (servers for updates and command and control)
A speading method (spamruns, phishing, exploits etc.)
A way for retaining infections (keeping your malware of the radar, updating the binary)
The problem for many newbies in the cybercrime world is that the good crypters
(any crypter at all really) cost money. A newbie can't program anything
themselves, and don't want to spend money. So they go for one of the 'free'
crypters. Obviously the malware obfuscated with one of the free crypters will
contain a little 'extra'.
This is a beneficial scheme for all the parties involved, the inexperienced
newbies have access to tools to obfuscate their third-rate malware, the more
experienced members benefit from some extra spreading of their own malware for
free and with minimal ties to themselves.
Perhaps this will become less viable for criminals in the future because
ransomware does not play well with any other infection on the system. As
opposed to adding some banking malware to a newbies RAT.
All the other free tools are probably full of 'extras' too, with the rare
exception of a free tool released purely for reputation gains and vouches.
------
fennecfoxen
Because the article doesn't mention it all, and because it's interesting to
ponder what fictional dystopian futures are sufficiently of interest to virus
authors and the like that they use names from those works:
"In a dystopian future, the Japanese government is cracking down on any
perceived immoral activity from using risqué language to distributing lewd
materials in the country, to the point where all citizens are forced to wear
high-tech devices called Peace Makers (PM) at all times that analyse every
spoken word and hand motions for any action that could break the law. A new
high school student named Tanukichi Okuma enters the country's leading elite
"public morals school" to reunite with his crush and student council
President, _Anna Nishikinomiya_.
... After being accidentally kissed by Tanukichi, she develops an obsessive
love for him but due to lack of knowledge on "immoral" subjects she ends up
expressing her love in extreme tendencies. These include pursuing him
relentlessly and attempting to rape him, endangering Kosuri and Ayame when she
sees them with Tanukichi, and becoming far more harsh and strict on her
surveillance, believing that by doing "justice" and "good things" she will be
loved by him."
–
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shimoneta](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shimoneta)
And that's Anna-senpai, the fictional character.
~~~
astrange
Shimoneta and B-Gata H-Kei are just teen sex comedies. RIP Miyu Matsuki.
"Gate" (not the same thing) is an extreme Japanese right-wing military
fetish[1] about how rebuilding your self-defense force into an army and
invading fantasy kingdoms would be really cool.
[1] "extreme Japanese right-wing" = "American centrist" as far as guns go
~~~
metaphorm
I don't know how extreme right-wing Gate is. only in the sense that it
portrays JDF sympathetically, and possibly raises a constitutional issue about
just how "expeditionary" the JDF is allowed to be. In the Gate storyline it
emphasizes really heavily how the heroic virtue of individuals creates
positive outcomes. It's an overly simplistic and romantic view of human nature
and political realities, but it's really just intended to be some shonen fun.
When I think of extreme Japanese right-wing I think more like Yukio Mishima
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yukio_Mishima](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yukio_Mishima)
ultra-nationalist and imperial restorationist who led a failed coup attempt.
------
Apocryphon
Based on this article, are a majority of DDOS-prevention firms really just
hacker outfits who are launching attacks on rival firms?
~~~
ocdtrekkie
Hasn't it always generally been kinda known or suggested that a lot of black
hat hackers actually have information security jobs somewhere? If you have a
talent that is well-paid for, it's pretty likely you're going to want a real
job where people pay you to do it.
~~~
Apocryphon
I didn't realize that there were DDOS protection "firms" that had less than
ten people, operating as security companies. I had assumed that most companies
would simply hire Cloudflare or FireEye. Much easier to act as a gang when
your firm only has a few people who are all in on it.
------
throw2016
Let alone the US the security services of nearly any state can take care of
this. But no, they want to access and use these services and have plausible
deniability and so let them exist and extort others.
I don't think anyone imagines the NSA, the russian or chinese security
services do not have the ability to put a stop to this, at least those parts
that are in their control.
~~~
putsteadywere
"...at least those parts that are in their control." And there's the rub! In
the article, the author notes that Ukrainian command-and-control is used in
the attacks on these western services... and if they were attacking Ukrainian
services, they wouldn't locate their command-and-control there.
You've identified an obvious solution and presumed that no-one is pursuing it,
in dereliction of the facts.
------
Dolores12
If i were anna-senpai, i would put my own anti-ddos servers down to avoid
suspicion. hence here is a question:
have any of ProtTraf servers been hit by Mirai botnet?
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
TI removes access to assembly programs on the TI-83 Premium CE - dTal
https://www.ticalc.org/archives/news/articles/14/149/149342.html
======
nullc
I'm really happy with the very well build swissmicros DM42 calculator:
[https://www.swissmicros.com/dm42.php](https://www.swissmicros.com/dm42.php)
It is inspired by the venerable HP42 and an e-ink like display that persists
when powered off, an arm cpu running at 24MHz when powered by a cr2032 (or
80MHz when on USB power). Both the display and the key action are a big
advantages over using a calculator app on a phone.
The software is entirely free software.
They will have a new model coming out in the next year or so which is on the
same hardware platform (but a different model because the key layout is
different) with an even more powerful software stack.
Unfortunately dedicated calculators are a seriously niche market, except for
education. And education results in weird user hostile features as well as
being extremely overpriced. (DM42 is also not super inexpensive, but at least
there its because its extremely well built and made in very small quantities).
A lot of really awesome things could be done but without a bigger market it's
hard to justify the development costs and manufacturing NREs.
~~~
neilpanchal
Thanks for the kind words. Regarding the build quality - we strongly believe
in buy-it-for-life philosophy, and the chassis is designed with repairability
in mind [1]. Battery life is also one of the top concerns for us and we don't
want our users to take the calculator out of the drawer after a long period
only to find that the battery is dead. We've had suggestions to add a color
screen or OLED display, but that would eat into the battery budget by a few
orders of magnitude.
We are also launching DM41X[2], about 100 units have been sent out for beta
testing and should be in production later this year.
We appreciate feedback and would love to hear from you: neil[@]swissmicros.com
[1] Teardown:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ong91Ji3iDk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ong91Ji3iDk)
[2] DM41X:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrU4sGWt45M](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrU4sGWt45M)
~~~
pengaru
> Teardown:
> [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ong91Ji3iDk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ong91Ji3iDk)
That video doesn't strike me as particularly flattering.
I'm no calculator aficionado, but just watching it already had me experiencing
pangs of buyer's remorse and no money had even left my pocket.
Echoes of the clamshell sharp zaurus; a well built piece of hardware with very
poor software support relegating it to dust collector status.
~~~
onli
The reviewer is very enthusiastic about the calculator and loves that thing.
How can a teardown be more positive and flattering?
~~~
pengaru
Their enthusiasm more or less ends where the hardware ends and the software
starts.
Some demonstrated flaws from memory:
\- Inexplicable help file error right out of the hole
\- No way to actually display values using the exceptional precision because
of the software
\- Basically no included graphing capabilities despite having a pixel-
addressable e-ink display the buyer is no doubt paying extra for
\- Weird font rendering bug and seemingly pointless font scaling
\- No modal alphabetic keyboard entry when attempting to do some rudimentary
programming
~~~
neilpanchal
Just to shed some thoughts around not adding features - keep in mind that DM42
is a "homage" to the original HP42. If we go ahead and make major changes to
the UI (besides what we have already made to take advantage of the screen), it
is no longer a true to the aforementioned spirit. Graphing capabilities were
rudimentary on HP42S and you need a printer to plot. Similarly, DM42 has an IR
sensor and complete backwards compatibility with HP42S printer.
There is a deliberate attempt to _not_ add features, and to keep DM42
compatible with HP42S "interface". We've received strong feedback from our
users to not make major changes to the HP42S spec. One can just use HP42S
manual and everything should just work. It is the same with the key layout.
If you want to add features or mess around with the firmware, it is open
source. There is also an SDK that you can use to write your own firmware if
you wish.
Furthermore, there are some exciting projects to build a new RPN platform all
together - WP43 is one.
That said, all feedback is welcome and appreciated. Thank you.
~~~
pengaru
That's fair, like I said I'm no calculator aficionado and have zero prior
experience with the HP42. So I'm coming at it cold and those choices are
coming through as defects and an inability to make good use of the hardware
being purchased.
------
Ansil849
Wow, this is incredibly sad news.
One of my fondest memories with the TI was a chemistry instructor saying that
we were completely free to use any programs we wanted on examinations -- as
long as we coded the programs ourselves. This inspired me to create a fairly
comprehensive TI chemistry formula program, and my mates did likewise. It was
really a forward-thinking move that contrasted strongly with just a blanket
ban, as instead it fostered creativity. It is sad to me that future
generations will not be able to experience this.
~~~
Scaevolus
This isn't a ban on TI-BASIC, which is what most students use when programming
formulae and other helper programs.
~~~
hamandcheese
It’s common for exam proctors to require you clear all programs from your
calculator. I think the reason for banning native programs is that it was
trivial to spoof the memory clearing in a way that was difficult to detect.
~~~
avhon1
You can actually spoof the "RESET RAM" menu in TI-Basic, but only dedicated
students would do it.
~~~
Mattwmaster58
Was this because you would have to plot it line/pixel-by-line/pixel?
~~~
avhon1
Something like that. You'd have to plot all of the text in all the right
places, and also script the menu, delay, and keyboard response.
~~~
thanksforfish
Are exam proctors really auditing this to that level? I've been out of school
for a while, but I think I only remember the honor system being used.
~~~
avhon1
My calculator was never checked before standardized tests, but some math
teachers checked before giving class tests.
~~~
thanksforfish
Theres some interesting incentives for teachers administering standardized
tests to ignore cheating. Students who do well reflects well on the teacher
and the school. I wonder how schools report cheating to standardized test
administrators and what the rules are for scoring a cheater.
------
013a
I remember, in maybe 9th grade, after learning Newton's Method in a pre-calc
course, writing a TI-83 program to do N iterations of Newton's Method for me.
I showed it to my math teacher. He wasn't much of a nerd, and this was the
early 2000s so technology wasn't quite as prolific as it is today; he was
blown away.
Come exam time, we were allowed to use our calculators. I asked if I should
clear mine out given I had a program which could "cheat" (I was a teachers
pet). He said something to me (privately) along the lines of, "don't worry
about it. the way I see it, you've already proven to me you know the content."
Ironically, today I could probably piece together a TI83 assembly program from
memory, but I couldn't even tell you what Newton's Method does, let alone how
to do it. Not sure what lesson to glean from that.
I remember eating lunch one day, maybe a year or so later, in his classroom
with some friends, and he was browsing around the internet trying to find a
job I'd like in math. Looking back, I find it funny that he was landing on
things like "actuarial science" and "accounting" instead of the obvious. I
think that was his way of trying to make up for the piss-poor guidance
counseling in my school of 80 people in the middle of nowhere. I ended up
wasting a semester in Computer Engineering doing CAD and coding MatLab before
a professor took me aside and basically said "you're finishing these matlab
assignments faster than my grad students would. Are you sure you don't
actually want to do Computer Science?"
It sucks to see this. The accessibility of coding today has never been better,
so I'm not going to pretend like this is a doomsday thing for helping kids get
into the field, but it did have power in its ubiquity. Teaching computer
science in high schools isn't a tenth as effective as students coding up a
program to make their math classes easier, or modding CounterStrike after
hours, or "hacking" the school computer labs to play Halo with their friends.
Technology, and the ability to shape it to help us, should be ubiquitous. It
shouldn't be thrown out the window just so one teacher can more easily proctor
a hundred tests instead of twenty.
~~~
gameswithgo
newtons method is mathematically informed binary search
~~~
MereInterest
Close, and a good intuition for well-behaved problems. Unfortunately, Newton's
method only remembers the location of the current point, rather than of two
points surrounding the target value. This can result in some pathological
cases where Newton's method fails to converge, or gets into an infinite loop.
------
wgetch
This is unfortunate, assembly programs were the strongest aspect of the TI
homebrew community. Some really great games and applications were made
possible by native binaries on the older TI calculators. A couple of details I
found in another article[1]:
\- The new OS prevents the calculators from being downgraded
\- The OS prevents running Asm/C programs, only Basic (and on some editions
Python) programs are allowed
\- Applications can still be installed if signed by approved TI vendors
Sounds like the TI homebrew community is about to get splintered. You'll have
the jailbreakers fighting for code execution, but this could easily end up a
small underground operation mirroring other jailbreak efforts. It could become
too much of a hassle to get asm programs back (custom OS?), if so most people
will accept the limitations and move on. At least there's still Basic and
Python, if nothing else.
[1] [https://www.cemetech.net/news/2020/5/949/_/ti-removes-
asmc-p...](https://www.cemetech.net/news/2020/5/949/_/ti-removes-asmc-
programming-from-ti-83-premium-ce)
~~~
saagarjha
This is basically just a repeat of how other platforms locked down code
execution on their devices. Hopefully TI is incompetent enough to make
jailbreaking trivial, but it opens up a cat-and-mouse game…
~~~
kick
TI is fairly competent overall. That said, maybe the bottom 10% get sent to
the calculator division, given that it's barely moved since 1980...
~~~
dsjimi
Less than 5% of their revenue is calculators, and much less than 5% of their
R&D or engineering budgets. It's an incredibly small part of their business.
~~~
epanchin
5% of revenue requiring much less than 5% of engineering time sounds like an
awesome part of a business. Hardly small, either.
~~~
goatinaboat
It serves the purpose of exposing future engineers to the TI brand during a
formative period too
------
stuntkite
TI's strangle hold on the education market is stupid. Anyone that's looking
for an affordable ($99)and modern calculator, check out the Numworks. It's
fantastic. It does all the normal things a calculator should do and comes with
a Python interpreter out of the box. Check out their simulator[0]. Also the
hardware and software are open source[1].
[0] [https://www.numworks.com/simulator/](https://www.numworks.com/simulator/)
[1] [https://github.com/numworks](https://github.com/numworks)
~~~
pests
Is it accepted on tests?
~~~
Allezxandre
I don't know for other countries, but as for France, it's compliant with the
exam-mode that all calculators must comply to for national exams.
So I can't say for your specific case, but if you're a teacher, at least this
feature exists and you can use it with your students.
By the way, even the iPhone has some apps compliant with this feature, where
you're basically locked into the App. If you do manage to leave the App (i.e.
by force restarting your phone), you void the exam start timestamp that the
App saved
------
EvanAnderson
Removing an advertised feature of a product in a firmware update? That reminds
me of OtherOS[1] and Sony.
[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OtherOS](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OtherOS)
~~~
DaiPlusPlus
Is that legal?
~~~
kube-system
Sony paid out on a class-action lawsuit over it.
~~~
musicale
In spite of having a launch model PS3 I wasn't able to claim my $9 of PSN
credit or whatever; iirc you had to prove you had installed linux before a
firmware update vaporized it.
------
joshstrange
ticalc.... I spent so many hours on their forums in high school. It's one of
the first online communities I was super-active in. I did a TON of TI-BASIC
programming and it's how I got my start programming. There are even 1-2 of my
old BASIC programs on ticalc that I uploaded over a decade ago.
I never got into assembly much because it required a a computer and I could
code and run BASIC on the calculator itself. I remember a few ASM programs you
could drop on your calculator and then call them from your BASIC programs. So
certain things that could be done faster in ASM were all put together in a
"library" that you could use to speed up your BASIC programs (most were visual
in nature, clear screen, draw sprite, etc). I still have my TI84+ SE from high
school, I really love that calculator.
~~~
avhon1
You can actually enter ASM code on the calculator, but it is very limited, and
non-trivial programs are extremely tedious to enter.
[http://tibasicdev.wikidot.com/asm-command](http://tibasicdev.wikidot.com/asm-
command)
~~~
joshstrange
Interesting, I remember the "ASM(" command to run those helper libraries but
yeah, the issues around trying to write ASM on the calculator would have been
a non-starter for me (both back them and now lol):
> Using AsmPrgm is the only built-in way to create assembly programs on the
> calculator, and it's not very convenient. To use it, after AsmPrgm itself,
> you must type in the hexadecimal values (using the numbers 0-9, and the
> letters A-F) of every byte of the assembly program. Even for assembly
> programmers, this is a complicated process: unless you've memorized the
> hexadecimal value of every assembly command (which is about as easy as
> memorizing the hexadecimal value of every TI-Basic token) you have to look
> every command up in a table.
~~~
monocasa
Even more than that, computing the branch offsets by hand is tedious and error
prone. You remember the important opcodes pretty quickly, but recomputing the
branches every time you modify the program is a huge pain.
~~~
a1369209993
Usually you'd pad the program with NOPs during development to keep each basic
block X-byte-aligned. Still a pain, but less of one.
------
simias
I got into programming almost 20 years ago by coding on my TI-89, first in
BASIC and later in ASM and C. Sad to see this platform closing down more,
although on the other hand I'm also surprised to see that these devices are
still relevant given how overpriced and under-powered they are by today's
standards.
~~~
jgalt212
It's been hard to make an underpowered calculator for 30+ years. What
computationally intensive tasks does one even try to attempt on a calculator?
I do remember IRR calcs on an HP-12C taking a few seconds, or so. And that
machine is not cheap either.
That being said, who's running IRR on a pocket calculator?
~~~
saagarjha
> What computationally intensive tasks does one even try to attempt on a
> calculator?
Back in high school I regularly hit integrations that took minutes to do on my
TI-89.
~~~
jgalt212
must have been some pretty big integrals, these examples in exact form seem to
be close to instant.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoDkeg166xU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoDkeg166xU)
maybe not the TI-89 which ran 68K processor.
~~~
saagarjha
Those are all fairly simple, I'm talking much bigger stuff. (I actually had a
Titanium, but it also has a 68k.)
------
saagarjha
This is really sad and a huge about face from the TI-83 Plus, which let you
program in assembly _on the calculator itself_ (fun fact: I wrote a CTF
challenge based around this, [https://github.com/saagarjha/ictf-
carprey](https://github.com/saagarjha/ictf-carprey)). I’m not looking forward
to the next generation of students being stuck with TI-BASIC unless they
“jailbreak” their calculators…
------
tehwebguy
Oh wow, ticalc.org still has the same header and color scheme as it did in
2001 (or 2002?), I used to check this site constantly in high school to
download new games (including a mind-blowing Link's Awakening port demo which
sadly never was finished)
Check it out, those menu buttons at the top use javascript to simulate CSS
`:hover` because at the time IE6 didn't support it for non-link elements!
<th onmouseover="mOvr(this);" onmouseout="mOut(this);" onclick="mClk(this);" style="cursor: default; background-color: rgb(255, 238, 204);">
------
transitivebs
I released dozens of TI-basic and TIGCC apps back in the day and this is a
very, very sad turn of events.
The biggest advantage TI has for attracting new developers is that their
platform is ubiquitous for high schoolers. This is really amazing for adoption
and it's how I got started with programming back in the day.
I hope this trend doesn't continue.
[https://www.ticalc.org/archives/files/authors/78/7869.html](https://www.ticalc.org/archives/files/authors/78/7869.html)
------
jrockway
I assume they did this because of pressure from standardized test
administrators. That other article from today about universities phasing out
standardized tests is bad news for TI, because nobody would choose their
calculators on technological merits. With standardized tests gone, there is no
reason to pay $200 for 1 cent microcontroller and a 3 cent screen. Now kids
can learn mathematics with something like Mathematica; rich graphics, smart
algebraic expansion/simplification, etc.
(Like many others, I have fond memories of programming my TI-80, TI-83, and
TI-89... but I also got to use Mathematica at school and kind of wondered why
these calculators existed then. I got so much out of animating and exploring
everything. Waiting 10 seconds for a TI-80 to graph a parabola was just not as
exciting after using that.)
------
sevenf0ur
Does anyone know what might be the Youtube video that the article suggests
kicked off this change?
------
gxqoz
As someone who widely appreciated being able to have a calculator out in some
classes to play Assembly games in classes this is sad news. That said, I can't
recall using an Assembly program for any legitimate use. Are there real apps
out there a student would use that are written in Assembly?
By the way, my favorite TI-83 Assembly game was Uncle Worm, a fun variant on
snake that lets you move in all directions. I even made a Windows port.
[https://www.ticalc.org/archives/files/fileinfo/96/9683.html](https://www.ticalc.org/archives/files/fileinfo/96/9683.html)
~~~
swiley
In college I wrote a quick program to plot 3D curves and surfaces, a lot of my
classmates used it. I would have written it in assembly if it were possible to
put an assembler on the calculator easily because basic was almost too slow.
------
analognoise
Hey everyone, since we're on the topic -
Is there an open source computer algebra system designed to run on one of
these microcontroller-level devices that might serve as a replacement for the
math capabilities?
Something at least as good as DERIVE, and doesn't resort to Python - something
barest of metal?
Because I've always wanted to make a calculator...
~~~
nsajko
I do not know much about it, but I remember Giac being hacked onto the
Numworks Epsilon software. Maybe check out Numworks, too, I am going to make a
comment now about it here, too.
[https://www-fourier.ujf-grenoble.fr/~parisse/giac.html](https://www-
fourier.ujf-grenoble.fr/~parisse/giac.html)
Seemingly relevant thread found by a quick Web search: [https://xcas.univ-
grenoble-alpes.fr/forum/viewtopic.php?t=69...](https://xcas.univ-grenoble-
alpes.fr/forum/viewtopic.php?t=694)
~~~
analognoise
Thank you. This is exactly what I was looking for!
------
tyingq
Interesting that a vendor is securing access to Z80 assembler in 2020.
~~~
simias
Unless things have changed since my high school years it's a Motorola 68k CPU,
not a Z80.
~~~
wtallis
I think it's 68k for the TI-89 and up, and Z80 for the lower models.
~~~
saagarjha
The eZ80, I believe, which is backwards compatible but clicked higher and with
24-bit arithmetic.
------
stevebmark
This sucks :( having a little mini battery powered computer with insane
capabilities like running a separate operating system was a great entry into
tech for many of us
------
qubex
I’d like to take the opportunity to recommend the HP Prime G2 (for those of
you who, like myself, appreciate the flexibility of a reasonably-powered CAS)
and the NumWorks (which, when loaded with the Omega fork of the open-source
Epsilon firmware) provides excellent functionality in very minimalist package
and even supports CAS (through the easy installation of khiCAS).
~~~
boricj
I'm a contributor to Epsilon and Omega. It's too early to guess how much of a
backlash this will generate, but calculator forums are extremely pissed right
now. TI completely destroyed any goodwill they had remaining at this point.
I'm not sure how this will unfold, but they've pissed off a fair number of
smart people that know their calculators inside and out. I expect jailbreaks,
boycotts and people switching to other platforms fairly quickly.
~~~
qubex
I find the NumWorks to be a lovely little calculator but Omega really needs to
provide some serious symbolic ( _i.e._ ‘CAS’) functionality. It’s all fair and
square that the official Epsilon firmware doesn’t feature CAS to appease the
examination boards, but it’s a feature that is pretty key for a more
sophisticated crowd. No algebraic computation? No symbolic differentiation and
integration?! That’s really quite disappointing.
~~~
boricj
There is support for giac as an external app, the port is named KhiCAS. Flash
a firmware with external app support (Omega typically) and then use
[https://zardam.github.io/nw-external-apps/](https://zardam.github.io/nw-
external-apps/) to transfer apps. Right now the current external app system is
a glorified proof-of-concept when compared to the TI/Casio ecosystem, but it
does work.
One cannot distribute epsilon with giac integrated since their licenses are
incompatible (GPL3 vs CC-BY-NC-SA), hence the external app workaround.
NumWorks could negotiate a commercial license, but there has been no sign of
this so far.
------
mycall
In the world of Matlab, python, Octave and Wolfram Alpha, why bother with the
TI-83 still?
~~~
scottLobster
Because schools aren't about to let students use phones/laptops during exams,
and not every student has readily available access to the internet.
Also on occasion I need to do some simple plotting/multi-step math and my old
high school TI-83 in the desk drawer is simply more convenient than firing up
a Mathematics suite and looking up the arcane commands to get it to show what
I actually want.
But for professional use, yeah there are better tools.
~~~
chongli
That's silly. None of my (I'm a math major) university calculus courses (calc
1, calc 2, calc 3, differential equations) allowed calculators on quizzes or
exams. Graphing calculators are a zombie technology kept alive by completely
bogus, artificial means.
There's no reason to use a calculator on a properly-designed calculus exam. We
were doing everything from Taylor series to triple integrals without them.
Teaching kids to rely on a calculator from a young age severely limits their
ability to develop the basic arithmetic "muscle memory" (for lack of a better
term) needed to manipulate equations quickly in more advanced math classes.
It's a real shame.
~~~
drdaeman
But what's the value of this arithmetic muscle memory, in a world of
ubiquitous computing?
As long as you don't treat this computing as magic that _somehow_ solves your
math problems (hah, true I was guilty of that when I was a school kid), but is
fully aware about how it does it (the algorithm) and just let the machine do
the boring bits.
~~~
jeffbee
Are you joking? Number sense is hugely useful in daily life. What if I have a
recipe for three servings but five dinner guests? If I just passed milepost
472 and I average 55 miles per hour, how long will it take me to reach Mexico?
How many bottled liters of water can I fit in this box? How much is the 1.35%
annual property tax on a million-dollar house, per month? You really want to
whip out your laptop for all that?
~~~
dTal
>How much is the 1.35% annual property tax on a million-dollar house, per
month? You really want to whip out your laptop for all that?
I'll bite. In what scenario would it be useful to do this calculation in my
head?
~~~
jeffbee
You're trying to figure out if you can afford that house based on your monthly
pay?
------
physicsguy
I find it incredible that these calculators are even allowed in exams. In the
UK, for University, we were allowed at most a Casio fx series scientific
calculator, nothing more sophisticated. At A-Level (pre-college) you were
allowed very basic graphical calculators but I knew of nobody that bought one
and they were seen as being pointless.
------
lxe
That is a sad news. What a trip down memory lane though... I remember since I
discovered that TI-83 is much more powerful than simply running BASIC
programs, I've been spending most of my free time on TICALC. I remember
installing a gameboy emulator that used some neat tricks to make TI-83's
monochrome display render 4-shade greyscale. I think there was a Doom port.
There's been a way to load and play rudimentary music through the IO port.
TICALC was/is a treasure. I wrote and published a simple sprite and asm editor
which since has been deleted. I had a z80 opcode table pretty much memorized
so I can try writing small native programs in hex directly on the calculator.
I think it helped me pave my life path for the next 20 years.
------
markus92
Weren't these devices utterly broken because the private RSA key was actually
refactored? Or is this a different type.
There's some wonderful software for these calculators out there. Even a
functional Gameboy emulator exists, used it to play Pokemon during math
classes back in the days!
~~~
codys
The TI-84 Premium/Plus CE uses a larger RSA key that has not been factored.
~~~
imglorp
Well that sounds like a challenge. Got it handy?
~~~
colejohnson66
It’d be nice if the bitcoin community put their brute forcing power towards
something meaningful like brute force factoring of RSA keys. Sadly, that
doesn’t make money.
~~~
imglorp
It's be real nice if PoW was protein folding, or SETI matches, or anything
else that benefitted humanity instead of random speculators.
~~~
npongratz
It can be! Hasn't worked so well in practice, however:
[https://foldingcoin.net/](https://foldingcoin.net/)
Not much going on there... seems the last on-chain transaction happened about
a month ago:
[https://xchain.io/asset/FLDC](https://xchain.io/asset/FLDC)
------
birdyrooster
> the new, upcoming chapters of a still ongoing story :)
I love this spirit. Glad to see it will continue with or without TIs blessing.
I have been using ticalc.org since I was a teenager and calculator enthusiasm
is and was a great way for kids to get interested in software engineering.
------
frob
I don't see this being a huge hurdle to programs to help with problem solving.
Back in the aughts, I would regularly write programs to solve basic kinematic
equations in basic and distribute them to my fellow classmates under the
blessing of the instructor. I got to reinforce my mental models of kinematics
and I removed some hurdles for my fellow students who were good at problem
solving and rearranging variables but weaker at math. Ultimately, I learned so
much from that class.
------
Causality1
TI calculators are a racket. They begged, bribed, and threatened their way
into being the standard for educators and used that monopoly position to avoid
competition and innovation. It's why a TI-84, a device with a $15
manufacturing cost, costs the student $130.
[https://youtu.be/zoGl8-Wc-L0](https://youtu.be/zoGl8-Wc-L0)
------
javert
Does anybody know of a powerful calculator model (e.g. multi-line display like
a graphing calculator) that has the ability to display commas out of the box?
For example, if the result is 1,998,241 it should display that way---not
1992241.
I don't usually need powers of ten notation.
I don't mind adjusting settings, but I don't want to have to download stuff to
make it do this.
------
hedora
I wonder how hard it would be to build a software-compatible TI calculator
clone.
They haven’t exactly innovated in this space in the last quarter century, but
it was a nice product back in the day. The bill of materials for a modern
version of these couldn’t be more than a few dollars.
I wish copyright terms were shorter.
------
mekael
It’s strange to read comments about people “cheating” using graphing
calculators, as I can’t remember a single time where one would have helped me
in a single class. That might be because I majored in maths and everything at
that level is abstract ?
------
nsxwolf
My friend and I started a little "demoscene" on our TI-85s in high school,
trying to outdo each other with little graphics demos... this is sad.
------
data_ders
RIP. My first program was a Pythagorean formula solver. I probably spent more
time playing games and programming on my TI83 than actually doing math
------
andrewstuart
Anyone know of any other devices using the eZ80 that can be purchased now and
are available (i.e. not retired)?
------
frellus
No issues, so long as you can still amuse your friends by typing: 6006135
~~~
saagarjha
googies?
------
blitmap
This is the only reason to buy these calculators.
------
throwaheyy
What next, a TI App Store?
~~~
jeegsy
I think you might be right!
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Improving advertising on the web - robin_reala
https://blog.chromium.org/2017/06/improving-advertising-on-web.html?m=1
======
dang
Comments moved to
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14465546](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14465546).
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Bad Elk V. United States - shawndumas
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bad_Elk_v._United_States
======
shawndumas
"Most states have, either by statute or by case law, removed the unlawful
arrest defense for resisting arrest"
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Air-powered LEGO V8 engine running at 1440 rpm (vid) - TriinT
http://www.nicjasno.com/node/1019
======
ynniv
The complete drivetrain with automatic transmission is much more impressive: [
[http://www.lpepower.com/content/heavy-duty-automatic-
transmi...](http://www.lpepower.com/content/heavy-duty-automatic-
transmission-10) ]
~~~
furyg3
All I can say is: wow.
I know you can do a lot with legos, but this is pretty amazing. My inner child
is psyched about this.
------
RyanMcGreal
I'm such a nerd. I read the title and thought, _How did someone manage to run
Google Chrome's Javascript engine with Lego?_
~~~
laut
Hehe, the Chrome V8 javascript engine is from Denmark just like LEGO.
------
DanHulton
Christ, you can BUY that kit:
<http://www.lpepower.com/content/pushrod-v8-engine>
This is an awful thing for me to know - I'm low on cash and have a TERRIBLE
sense of what is appropriate to spend it on.
------
apgwoz
I'd love to see that engine thrown in to a scale LEGO car and see how it
actually performs when it's pushing something along. Seems like it would do a
great job, and the end result of a scale car would be awesome.
~~~
fsniper
Seems like they've tried it with a lego car.
<http://www.lpepower.com/content/power-without-control>
~~~
apgwoz
Ahh, you're right. I didn't spend enough time looking. Thanks!
------
mattmaroon
It sounds like the Mazda 323 I drove when I was 16.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Why we have to boycott RSA - techinsidr
http://blog.erratasec.com/2014/01/why-we-have-to-boycott-rsa.html
======
ics
> I mention this because people on Twitter are taking the stance that instead
> of boycotting RSA that we should attend their conference, to represent our
> views, to engage people in the conversation, to be "ambassadors of liberty".
> This is nonsense. It doesn't matter how many people you convince that what
> the RSA did is wrong if that doesn't change their behavior. If everyone
> agrees with you, but nobody boycotts RSA's products/services, then it sends
> the clear message to other corporations that there is no consequence to bad
> behavior. It sends the message to other corporations that if caught, all
> that happens is a lot of talk and no action. And since the motto is that
> "all PR is good PR", companies see this as a good thing.
_DO BOTH_. This is the real world. People have to compromise to send a
unified message. Don't refuse to help one group who shares your goals because
they have a different idea of how to achieve it. If you are in a position
where you can boycott _and_ voice your opinion to their faces, do it. Maybe
you're right and they don't give a shit about what you say. Who cares? Let the
other people there know, and let them know that there are more of you out
there.
~~~
gpcz
It would take too much secret coordination, but the coolest thing would be if
all the world's encryption experts/academics colluded to talk at RSA's
conference with seemingly-plausible topics, but then have everyone just
deliver a speech on RSA's actions before leaving the podium. Then again,
getting in would require writing legitimate papers that RSA could still
publish in their proceedings to make the conference look successful.
------
oroup
I'd go further. I think there needs to be a class action suit brought by
customers who purchased a security solution and got snake oil. I'm sure the
RSA license limits liability but I think there's a case to be made that this
isn't just negligence but willful criminal acts and the limitations should be
set aside. The case itself would probably be pretty damaging ("Tell us, what
did you think the $10m was buying?"). I think RSA would go pretty far to avoid
a trial.
~~~
us0r
[https://www.eff.org/files/filenode/20111229_9C_Hepting_Opini...](https://www.eff.org/files/filenode/20111229_9C_Hepting_Opinion.pdf)
"II. The 2008 Amendments to the FISA
While the underlying actions were pending in district court, and partially in
response to these suits, Congress enacted the FISA Amendments Act of 2008,
Pub. L. No. 110-261, 122 Stat. 2435, codified at 50 U.S.C. § 1885a. Among the
amendments is § 802, an immunity provision and related procedures that are
triggered if the United States Attorney General certifies to one or more of
five conditions. In such case, no civil action may be maintained “against any
person for providing assistance to an element of the intelligence community.”
§ 802(a)."
This to me says such an action would not even get off the ground let alone
them having to answer the "what did you think the $10m was buying" question.
~~~
rhizome
You should also paste the five conditions for completeness:
1\. any assistance by that person was provided pursuant to an order of the
court established under section 103(a) directing such assistance;
2\. any assistance by that person was provided pursuant to a certification in
writing under section 2511(2)(a)(ii)(B) or 2709(b) of title 18, United States
Code;
3\. any assistance by that person was provided pursuant to a directive under
section 102(a)(4), 105B(e), as added by section 2 of the Protect America Act
of 2007 (Public Law 110–55), or 702(h) directing such assistance;
4\. in the case of a covered civil action, the assistance alleged to have been
provided by the electronic communication service provider was—
A) in connection with an intelligence activity involving communications that
was—
i) authorized by the President during the period beginning on September 11,
2001, and ending on January 17, 2007; and
ii) designed to detect or prevent a terrorist attack, or activities in
preparation for a terrorist attack, against the United States; and
B) the subject of a written request or directive, or a series of written
requests or directives, from the Attorney General or the head of an element of
the intelligence community (or the deputy of such person) to the electronic
communication service provider indicating that the activity was—
i) authorized by the President; and
ii) determined to be lawful; or
5\. the person did not provide the alleged assistance.
------
fintler
RSA is a subsidiary of EMC. This means that a boycott of Greenplum, Pivotal,
VMWare, Isilon, Mozy, and MANY others would probably be included.
I just don't see an effective boycott of this scale happening -- especially
when most of their customers just care about the product cost and benefit.
Also, it can probably be argued that trying to secure your systems against a
targeted intrusion from the NSA using technical means is pointless and a waste
of money (throwing money at the EFF might be more effective).
Having said that, is there an good alternative to SecureID? The only thing
that seems to come close is CRYPTOCard, but it looks like they have closer
ties with the NSA than RSA does. A yubikey also looks nice, but I don't like
how it needs to be plugged in as a keyboard -- a device that is kept
physically separated from the login machine would be ideal. OTP apps on a
multi-purpose device (mobile phone) also isn't something I consider to be
secure.
~~~
MacsHeadroom
>is there an good alternative to SecureID?
Twitter, Tumblr, Facebook, MIT, Stanford, Sony, Arbor Networks, 37 Signals,
Twilio, (and many more) all use Duo Security as an alternative to RSA
SecureID. [https://www.duosecurity.com/success-
stories](https://www.duosecurity.com/success-stories)
Duo 2FA is easily the most secure[1], easiest to use[2], and most developer
friendly multi-factor solution[3].
[1]
[https://www.duosecurity.com/security](https://www.duosecurity.com/security)
[2] [https://www.duosecurity.com/product](https://www.duosecurity.com/product)
[3a] Almost all of Duo is open source.
[https://github.com/duosecurity](https://github.com/duosecurity)
[3b] Duo's c development libraries and SSH/PAM packages are available in the
official repos for major distributions like Debian/Ubuntu, REHL/CentOS/Fedora,
SUSE/SLES, etc.
[http://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=duo+security&sear...](http://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=duo+security&searchon=all&suite=testing§ion=all)
[3c] Duo's REST APIs kick ass:
[https://www.duosecurity.com/api](https://www.duosecurity.com/api)
~~~
droopybuns
The only downside to Duo is Jon Oberheide's previous collaborations w/ Charlie
Miller, ex-nsa'er & advocate of the "no more free bugs" movement.
Minor nitpick, but if we're shaming companies in the security community, I
think it's worth calling out some of the security celebrities whose stances
contribute to the privacy destroying activities of the NSA. He and people like
the gruqg are enablers of the government's destruction of our privacy.
I agree with you though. Duo is one of the best alternatives out there. Jon's
collaborations w/ Miller were years ago. Perhaps I'm being a bit to grudgy.
------
kerkeslager
Branding this as a boycott implies that this is an expression of protest, that
this is a moral issue. I agree that it is, but a lot of people don't. The
morality of the NSA, and of cooperating with the NSA, is a matter of national
debate.
However, it is not a matter of debate that the RSA backdoor of BSAFE was and
is not open merely to the NSA. It is an objective fact that anyone can take
advantage of a backdoor like this. As such, even if you think that the NSA is
right, even if you think that cooperating with the NSA is correct, this is not
the way to do it.
It might make business sense to do business with a security company that
cooperates with the NSA. It does not make business sense to do business with a
security company which is proven to produce vulnerable software.
Whether or not it's an ethical problem is subjective. The fact that it's a
business problem is objective.
This comment misses the mark:
> Also, it can probably be argued that trying to secure your systems against a
> targeted intrusion from the NSA using technical means is pointless and a
> waste of money
The BSAFE backdoor does not simply make companies vulnerable to targeted
intrusion from the NSA. It makes _every_ technology which uses Dual EC_DRBG
vulnerable to _any_ hacker who knows how to use the vulnerability. This is a
pseudorandom number generator, which means that it affects almost every
primitive cryptographic operation.
A company which would introduce such a vulnerability for the NSA may or may
not be an ethical company, but it certainly is not a company qualified to
provide security.
EDIT: It looks like I messed up my understanding of the way in which
Dual_EC_DRBG was broken. See the responses to my post for details.
~~~
sdevlin
> However, it is not a matter of debate that the RSA backdoor of BSAFE was and
> is not open merely to the NSA. It is an objective fact that anyone can take
> advantage of a backdoor like this.
This is not accurate. You need to know the private key for the generator, and
this is not publicly known.
~~~
SwellJoe
But, how many people have access to said private key? Will it ever be leaked,
as some pieces of sensitive data have been? You can't trust keys that aren't
yours to control, because while we can probably safely assume that NSA has
better security than you or I or the companies we work for, it also has much
higher capability attackers than most of us ever see in our lifetimes. The
value of this particular private key is probably the highest of any known
single private key in existence.
And, what about further down the road? 10 years, maybe 20, when this new type
of key is predictably breakable with large enough resources? A 1024 bit RSA
key is breakable for about $10 million _today_ , according to a study that was
linked to in a previous discussion about the state of quantum competing a
couple days ago.
There are too many ways this one key could end up compromising potentially
millions of locks.
~~~
bigiain
" … because while we can probably safely assume that NSA has better security
than you or I … "
This is the same NSA that has no idea what or how many documents Snowden
exfiltrated as a contractor sysadmin?
Would you bet your company's confidential data (and possibly future existence)
on the assertion that Snowden didn't have access to that private key? Or that
other less politically motivated NSA contractors didn't have access to that
private key, and which they could have sold for profit instead of publicly
whisteblowing for ethical reasons?
~~~
SwellJoe
I've seen no evidence that the key has been compromised, nor evidence that any
important NSA keys have _ever_ been compromised. I must assume they have
different practices for their keys than for their data gathering practices.
While I've never seen it spelled out this way, I've always been under the
assumption that the reason the NSA had so many outside contractors doing
particularly dirty work was perhaps because they knew it was illegal and
unconstitutional, and wanted it to happen outside the agency itself. But, I
may be misinterpreting. It may have simply been a cost-cutting measure in
which they failed to account for the lower level of loyalty to the state and
higher level of loyalty to the constitution and individual rights than they
were accustomed to from "company men".
~~~
bigiain
In this post Snowden era, any time I hear the phrase "I must assume … ", I
automatically have to wonder just how well founded that assumption is any
more.
You're _probably_ right.
A year ago I would have said you were "probably right" if you told me the NSA
wasn't recording metadata for almost every phone call, email, and website
visit.
~~~
SwellJoe
I don't disagree with you, really.
I think we both agree that any company that is willing to compromise its users
to _any_ entity, for money or otherwise, is not a company that should be
entrusted with security. I will never deploy an RSA product, and will
encourage my customers to choose other options (we support 2FA in our
products, as of a couple of months ago, so we have the ability to determine
what potentially millions of users choose, though realistically only a few
hundred of our users have enabled 2FA, thus far; we don't support RSA).
So, yeah, it's _also_ possible that the NSA's super secret input data they
used for this RNG will be revealed or will be compromised by some powerful
attacker (China, for instance, who would have very high incentive to
compromise a large percentage of major corporations in the US in one fell
swoop).
------
salient
Do we have a customer list of RSA? We should at least try warning them about
it. Many of them probably aren't even aware of this. What banks use RSA's
products?
~~~
tptacek
Conservatively: all of them.
~~~
dvanduzer
I'm far more concerned about the overlap between the name of the organization
and the name of the algorithm.
The political debate over "working inside the system" is certainly important
to have. But the organization that makes those hardware tokens used all over
the place could vanish, and it would be a minor systems integration
inconvenience.
The reputation hit to a fundamental algorithm is going to be confusing
programmers for a long time. I don't even know how to start measuring the cost
of that.
~~~
rainsford
I think the solution to that problem should be that if a programmer doesn't
understand the difference between RSA the company and RSA the algorithm or the
difference between a random number generator and an asymmetric algorithm, for
God's sake don't let them anywhere near any crypto code.
Of course that probably won't happen since programmers who don't know what
they're doing implementing crypto seems to be as popular as ever.
~~~
dvanduzer
Ahh, yes I wasn't clear enough. There are two distinct issues here. I observed
more than one reaction to the original news, where a tech journalist type was
clearly experiencing "reasonably informed confusion" about RSA.
And then, the degree of "knowing what you're doing" is important too, because
I'm pretty sure I have a better background in algebra than some professional
cryptographers, but human blind spots can get pretty subtle.
The difference between a PRNG and an asymmetric cipher is _easy_ to
understand. The _cognitive load_ of associating RSA the company with RSA the
algorithm (and ECDRBG the PRNG with ECC the PKI for that matter) is difficult
to overcome even when you're aware of the potential bias.
------
us0r
"In some cases the companies had no choice (Verizon)"
This is how wrong so many people are. Verizon's CEO has flat out said "they
are our largest customer" (i.e - go fuck yourself).
------
sneak
From the article:
"Sadly, I haven't spoken at RSA in many years. Had I been accepted to talk
this year, I'd certainly be canceling it."
~~~
sophacles
What does this have to do with the core part of the article: that people
should boycott the RSA for helping the NSA so willingly in surveilance?
------
eliteraspberrie
A boycott is symbolic, and that is important. But I doubt it will be effective
in changing their corporate priorities. RSA makes its money from government
contracts, or from other government contractors, not from privacy-minded
individuals like us.
Instead, I propose that it be unlawful for companies which have been
thoroughly hacked to bid on government cybersecurity contracts, at least for
some period of time. After the SecurID hack, RSA should have been blacklisted
for, say, a year. BSAFE should not be anywhere near a government or defence
network.
PS: The analogy to Vichy France isn't great. It was not a matter of French
technocrats collaborating just to save their jobs; it was real counter-
revolutionaries fighting to bring down the Third Republic from within.
------
cpt1138
Via this logic, shouldn't we boycott Yahoo, Google, and Facebook too?
~~~
tptacek
Why would you boycott companies that spent millions of dollars fighting NSA
because of an allegation that another company took millions of dollars to hep
NSA?
~~~
cpt1138
Well these companies are giving information to the NSA one way or another. Its
a slippery slope argument, but anyone that doesn't refuse to give up the
information e.g. Lavabit is complicit in aiding the NSA. Whether they get paid
for it or not seems irrelevant.
~~~
notacryptwizard
I think that a reasonable person would consider {Apple, Google, Lavabit, ...}
receiving a National Security Letter coercion, and therefore not "complicit".
"Complicit" would be Verizon or AT&T, who to this day still sell phone call
metadata to the NSA.
------
jmspring
I initially read this as boycotting RSA products like BSAFE, rather than the
conference.
Aside from their secure ID products, do people use many RSA products?
------
murphysbooks
What About EMC?
Should they bear any of the burden or only the subsidiary?
What about those companies that use RSA products and services?
These are just questions.
Not advocacy.
------
puppetmaster3
+1.
411 - [http://rsaconference.com](http://rsaconference.com)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Show HN: “Who's Hiring” Trends - austinhutch
http://austinhutchison.com/hntrends/
======
austinhutch
I built a tool that analyzes the frequency of strings in the monthly "Who's
Hiring" posts over the past 12 months. It works with one word or two word
strings.
Here's a blog post with more explanation and a few interesting trends:
[http://blog.austinhutchison.com/2014/07/23/hacker-news-
whos-...](http://blog.austinhutchison.com/2014/07/23/hacker-news-whos-hiring-
trends/)
And the Github repo:
[https://github.com/austinhutchison/hntrends](https://github.com/austinhutchison/hntrends)
------
dk8996
It would be cool to do this for not only the "whos hiring" posts but for every
post on HN going back a 5 years to see the trend of what people are talking
about.. Just a thought.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: How to securely purchase a project? - bukka
I am looking into purchasing a website/project. How can I assure that I do not get scammed or tricked, which method should I use to perform the transaction.
======
iancarroll
Put the money into [http://escrow.com](http://escrow.com) Get the files
Release the money
------
wusatiuk
there are several escrow services out there which are not meant especially for
web projects but you could use them.
it depends on the country of buyer / seller, the amount we are talking about
and so on... there are several ways of buying something securely.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Quantum effects in relatively large systems - JumpCrisscross
http://nautil.us/issue/29/scaling/how-big-can-schr246dingers-kittens-get
======
biswaroop
Superfluidity is briefly mentioned in the article, but it's a quantum effect
that's visible in very large systems.
A system exhibits zero viscosity when its particles condense into a single
quantum mechanical state. Superconductivity is an instance of this, where
electrons pair up and flow without resistance.
Buckets of liquid helium show superfluidity. [1]
Labs cool blobs of alkali gas to superfluidity. [2]
Entire cores of neutron stars are superfluid. [3]
There's even a theory of quantum gravity where physical vacuum is a
superfluid. [4]
[1]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Z6UJbwxBZI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Z6UJbwxBZI)
[2]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RpLOKqTcSk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RpLOKqTcSk)
[3] [http://arxiv.org/abs/1012.0045](http://arxiv.org/abs/1012.0045)
[4]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superfluid_vacuum_theory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superfluid_vacuum_theory)
~~~
jessriedel
This isn't really more "macroscopically quantum" than spectroscopy or the
stability of matter. (Neither of those would be possible in a normal classical
universe either.) You're just noticing indirect quantum effects on large
scales, but there is no macroscopic coherence.
On the other hand, the interferometery experiments like MAQRO discussed in the
article do actually exhibit long-range coherence of large amounts of matter.
~~~
biswaroop
Although liquid helium is kind of a partial BEC, isn't a BEC one of the best
examples of a coherent state? Except for certain quantum phase liquids,
superfluid systems often exhibit long-range phase coherence.
I'd actually be curious to know the quantum discord of a superfluid Fermi gas.
~~~
jessriedel
No, the spatial coherence of a BEC isn't larger than the ground state
wavefunction.
------
amelius
Perhaps also interesting: [1]
[1]
[http://www.ted.com/talks/aaron_o_connell_making_sense_of_a_v...](http://www.ted.com/talks/aaron_o_connell_making_sense_of_a_visible_quantum_object)
------
RobertoG
Why is Everett (many worlds) interpretation so unpopular?
Frequently is not even mentioned, as it was not so plausible, or so
implausible, as Copenhagen.
~~~
twoodfin
The most common objection I've heard is that physicists are strongly biased
towards 'conservative' laws. And for good reason: Assuming that physical
quantities are conserved and then looking for apparent violations of that
assumption has been an extremely fruitful theoretical and empirical
enterprise.
"Many worlds" suggests the opposite: That physical quantities such as mass are
forever increasing, albeit in a way we can't experimentally detect.
~~~
repsilat
> That physical quantities such as mass are forever increasing
I think that's a little uncharitable. In classical terms you could say that
each "universe" is associated with some weight or probability, and those
probabilities always sum to one.
I guess you could say that the "number" of things increases (provided that
number is countable and finite, I guess, which seems a bit silly), but the
probability-weighted mass of things going on stays the same.
Of course, it isn't terribly useful to talk about all of the inaccessible
universes taking up the majority of the probability, so we condition on our
observations (i.e., we do a Bayesian update, or "collapse the wavefunction".)
Then if we talk about "our universe" having probability 1 given our
observations, and surmise that people in another parallel, inacessible
universe would also say that theirs has probability 1, we might say "Aha!
There is now a total of 2, where once there was a total of 1!" It should be
clear how this is an error, though.
------
hyperion2010
> The interference patterns can be washed out by decoherence: They vanish as
> the researchers admit gas into the apparatus, increasing the interactions of
> the molecules with their environment.
I know that this has been know for a long time, but it is nice to see a clear
experiment that shows that decoherence has nothing to do with 'measurement' or
'looking' like most stories about quantum phenomenon try to imply. Nice to see
this particular abuse of the anthropic principle laid to rest.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Police to Seattle’s techies, streamers: Sign up for our anti-swatting service - tonyztan
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/10/police-to-seattles-techies-streamers-sign-up-for-our-anti-swatting-service/
======
Reelin
So... why don't we fix the problem at its source by trying to better assess
the reliability of a lone phone call before barging in guns blazing as though
it was a war zone?
Before: "We got a single phone call guys, this is bulletproof. No need to
actually assess the situation or anything, no one would ever lie to us - we're
the authorities after all."
Now: "Not in the database - looks like we're good to shoot on sight!"
Obviously I exaggerate, and hopefully things don't usually proceed the way
they did in Kansas ([https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/24/us/gamers-swatting-
charge...](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/24/us/gamers-swatting-
charges.html)). But I really have to wonder about the reasoning here. In all
seriousness, which of the below is a more frequent occurrence?
* A hostage (or similar) situation deserving of this sort of response, but with no externally visible indications - just a single phone call.
* "Prank" calls of this sort.
I don't actually know the answer, but I strongly suspect the latter by a very
large margin.
~~~
a_t48
This has to be balanced by the need for fast responses when there is an actual
real emergency. Heads will roll if the authorities come slowly or not at all
for a real hostage situation.
~~~
vosper
I don't think the best outcomes for hostage situations are quick responses by
heavily armed assault teams? I'm pretty sure the playbook is something like
surrounding and controlling the area, establishing communications, and trying
to work out a peaceful outcome. Whilst planning for an alternative option.
~~~
mrhappyunhappy
I am pretty sure thing are the way they are for a good reason that you and I
have no insight to. Otherwise they wouldn’t be this way. Cops are not stupid
and neither are the people running those teams. I doubt it gives them any
pleasure responding to potentially deadly situations and putting their own
lives at risk. Cops have families too. Perhaps we need to ask someone who
knows better instead of speculating.
~~~
samontar
Turns out some times the authorities are morons, dude. Once upon a time we
dumped radioactive material off the coast of SF and shot holes in the barrels
to make them sink. I’m sure there was someone running around saying “there’s
probably a good reason”. That dude would have been wrong.
~~~
mrhappyunhappy
I wouldn’t disagree with your first statement but HN tends to skew to a bunch
of I’m a know it all attitudes. I’m just saying, things are not always as
simple as they appear and while you can have an opinion on the matter does not
make you authority on the subject. I forget the term for this concept but the
news is always wrong depending on who is reading it.
~~~
iamnothere
You're referring to the Gell-Mann amnesia effect.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gell-
Mann_amnesia_effect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gell-Mann_amnesia_effect)
------
scarface74
Can I use it for - My Family is Black in a mostly White neighborhood, if a
neighbor calls the police about “suspicious” people entering my house, it’s
probably just my family.
~~~
rsj_hn
I am sorry to hear that. Is your neighborhood wealthy? I'm in SF, and there
are some neighborhoods (Pacific Heights) where your risk of getting the cops
called at you is pretty high just by walking around at night if one of the
nosy neighbors doesn't recognize you. I assume being black would increase
those odds.
I was almost swatted once -- there was a knock on my door "Police! Open up!"
and when I came to the door the police said they heard reports of gunshots
from my apartment. What?? I let them in, they looked around -- I think it was
an ex-gf but I can't prove it. They started asking me if I just moved in (I
had a few months before). I tried to ask them who reported it, but they
wouldn't say. I'm just glad they didn't bust down the door guns blazing.
It's a scary world out there.
~~~
jedberg
> I'm in SF, and there are some neighborhoods (Pacific Heights) where your
> risk of getting the cops called at you is pretty high just by walking around
> at night if one of the nosy neighbors doesn't recognize you. I assume being
> black would increase those odds.
If you really want to see blatant racism, sign up for nextdoor.com. My
Cupertino neighbors are constantly posting about a "suspicious person", and
when you press them as to why the person is suspicious, it always boils down
to, "because they're black". Usually they don't outright say it, they just
imply it, but sometimes they do say it outright.
~~~
shady-lady
[not american] i've always wondered about that. is it they feel uncomfortable
because the person is wearing something normally associated with
gangbanger/dodgy person.
would it happen if the person was dressed like whatever the stereotypical
white person business casual attire is for the area?
i just can't see somebody being uncomfortable __just__ on color of skin. there
surely has to be something else which triggers it.
person acting sketchy (maybe because they feel out of place rather than being
up to dodgy activity?
~~~
rsj_hn
I think dress is one factor. Age, height, are they in a group, and if so, what
do the other members of the group look like -- they all have an effect. But, I
don't think you can deny that race is a factor also, independent of all the
other factors. I don't think that's ever gonna change, either.
I don't believe people outside the U.S. are immune from considering race as a
factor in judging whether someone is a threat or out for mischief. The world
is filled with race wars and racial conflict and tension. For a German, say,
it might not be a black person, but it could be a gypsy or arab that elevates
their sense of risk.
------
partiallypro
How about police just not use SWAT teams so much? It's ridiculous that you can
get someone "swatted" with mere heresay; but SWAT teams have swelled in number
and are now being used for far more than what they were originally intended.
SWAT teams raiding the wrong homes, shooting family dogs, killing innocent
people, etc...are all a symptom of a larger problem, as is this. You shouldn't
have to sign up for anything to not get attacked by a SWAT team, how
absolutely absurd. A list does not solve the deeper issue.
~~~
gingerbread-man
Former cop here: I think the biggest misconception about SWAT teams is that
what makes them different is that they carry rifles instead of handguns. (In
fact, in most departments every officer carries a rifle in his/her patrol
car.)
A SWAT team is a group of officers who train as a team for high-risk
situations like drug warrants and, yes, hostage situations. By contrast, most
other officers are trained to respond solo or in pairs, and often don't spend
nearly as much time practicing things like room clearance. If the police are
going to break down your door, you want the best-trained most experienced
officers doing it. The SWAT guys are calmer, more professional, and less
likely to pull the trigger when startled.
~~~
arminiusreturns
You are both wrong and missing the point, which is; they shouldn't be breaking
down doors in the first place based off the shoddy info given, full fucking
stop.
See the professionalism of this Arizona SWAT for an example
[https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=l4LzwZV6hFQ](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=l4LzwZV6hFQ)
I'm a former Marine who was trained in advanced CQB/CQC and have crosstrained
all kinds of LEAs/LEOs and SWAT tends to be the very worst trained,
undisciplined bunch of wannabe's this side of the equator. It actually became
a joke in the shoot house how many former POGs who never saw combat and were
naively gung-ho gear-queers made up the majority of the SWATs coming through.
We had more trigger discipline in a fucking combat zone than these guys.
tldr; quit your bullshit
~~~
hef19898
Could be an inherent risk of militarizing a police force. You have the gear to
look the like, and gear wants to be used. Add people attracted more by the
gear and not the task at hand to superiors wanting to use the gear and it can
get ugly.
When your only tool is hammer eyery problem tunrs into a nail, right?
EDIT: When German police was on alert two years ago after some incidents they
did send 20-something guys with SMGs to guard and patrol in trains. Usually I
choose a car they already passed for my communte, somehow I didn't have a lot
of confidence in how they would react if there really was a situation that
warrented police. Normally in Germany police is all about deescalation, but
they don't carry automatic most of the time neither.
------
artellectual
How is this different from paying the mafia protection money? This is what
mafias do they extort businesses for money to not be bothered by them and
other gang members.
------
bpanon
The "Please don't shoot" list
------
hyperrail
Some more discussion, including sign-up instructions at the end:
[https://www.geekwire.com/2018/seattle-police-try-new-
tactic-...](https://www.geekwire.com/2018/seattle-police-try-new-tactic-give-
game-streamers-others-defense-swatting-pranks/)
~~~
samontar
Inb4 someone registers before actually shooting a family. Doesn’t look like
any proof is required.
------
King-Aaron
Sooooo can you set up a meth lab, then add yourself to the list?
~~~
user111233
It literally says in the article that they will not ignore calls to locations
on the list and they will only keep the information in mind when responding.
~~~
King-Aaron
Aware of that, however I don't see how it can work in any situation to be
honest.
A ) I have an illegal thing in my house, but I register for "please dont shoot
me etc". Party B calls the police, door is still likely to be kicked in.
B ) I don't have an illegal thing in my house, I register for "please dont
shoot me etc". Party B calls the police, door is still likely to be kicked in.
And at what point does it become meaningless if the majority of residential
addresses are on the list?
------
Tyrannosaur
What a racket. There is a problem with people spoofing voip phone calls
calling in hoaxes and the best they can come up with to fix it is "oh pay for
this protection service and we will send a normal police response instead of a
murderous one."
WHAT?? Why not "oh this phone call has weird information and is untrackable.
That's weird and abnormal, almost like this is a hoax. Let's go check assuming
it is a hoax."
------
United857
One idea might be to have some way to register a 'code word' with the
police/911 dispatch for a given address/phone in advance. If the code word is
spoken, that gives extra signal that it's a genuine threat.
In practice, not sure if the IT of most departments is sophisticated enough,
but in theory that might help.
~~~
meritt
People are extremely unlikely to remember a code word they setup years ago and
now must recall during a high-stress emergency.
------
BslSJDIz1gqWxXq
Streamers like Ice Poseidon and Sam Pepper could benefit from such a service,
though unfortunately they aren't based in Seattle.
------
SrslyJosh
Feels like a trap.
------
newsDerp
Holy shit. We're fucking doomed.
The SWAT team just can't promise that it won't treat every phone call like a
life and death situation.
Gee. Maybe the SWAT team should only barge in after regular cops are confirmed
to have made contact with a genuine emergency, that has been validated and
confirmed as unresolvable by other means?
What if the SWAT team just didn't react to phone calls?
What if other criteria were required to be met, before dumping a pile of
battering rams and automatic weapons and snipers and helicopters onto a
problem?
Maybe just expose regular police to emergency calls first? Maybe it's not Die
Hard? Maybe Hans Gruber isn't taking hostages? Imagine that.
------
edoceo
I'm moving back to Oakland
~~~
edoceo
Downvoted? Because SPD scares me more than OPD?
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
How Fast is the National Broadband Network? Broadband in Australia. - brotchie
http://howfastisthenbn.com.au/
======
jfoster
This is getting quite a lot of media attention in AU today.
[http://www.smh.com.au/it-pro/government-it/nbn-speed-test-
we...](http://www.smh.com.au/it-pro/government-it/nbn-speed-test-website-
draws-quick-fire-20130508-2j7cw.html)
~~~
prawn
Sadly with a predictable line of "All this means is faster pirating of Game of
Thrones" in the comments. So shortsighted.
------
ghuntley
Bravo, seriously. Bravo!
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Cars All but Banned on One of Manhattan’s Busiest Streets - ramzyo
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/03/nyregion/car-ban-14th-street-manhattan.html
======
mrpopo
> “I think it’s extreme and there should be a compromise. Everybody pays taxes
> — not just the people in the buses.”
I would make the opposite argument actually. Car drivers pay the same amount
of taxes despite taking up more space on the road, causing more accidents etc.
It's an unfair subsidy loophole that is finally getting plugged.
~~~
zaroth
Cars pay for the space they occupy through fuel, excise, and sales taxes.
Buses, on the other hand, are a loss-leading and highly subsidized form of
transport.
~~~
rumanator
> Cars pay for the space they occupy through fuel, excise, and sales taxes.
Your statement is absurd. You're arguing that something should have the right
to occupy the public space and deprive others from using it just because the
owner bought it and spends money on fuel.
~~~
furyofantares
The quoted text is meant to be read as “fuel taxes, excise taxes, and sales
taxes.”
------
dajohnson89
just walked across 14th today for lunch, it was beautiful. the only traffic is
buses, and maybe the odd truck. there are cops posted -- because the street is
so empty, it's tempting to jaywalk without looking for an oncoming bus.
as another commenter said, the drivers brought this onto themselves. i think
the impact of uber driving around waiting for a ride, + booked ubers double
parked waiting for the charge to arrive, adds significantly to congestion.
without getting into the uber/taxi debate, you could just see (and hear the
honking) how difficult it was for the buses to get through even during normal
traffic.
another quiet change that happened nearby, is the closure of union square w
between 14th & 17th. theres an extremely high amount of pedestrian traffic,
and near the edges of the square there's intersections that would get pretty
dicey. now it's much, much better. to be fair, ny drivers are decent, but
there's just too much volume (and pedestrians looking down at their
smartphones). i'm sure people got hit on an almost daily basis. ironically,
i'm more afraid of bicyclists hitting me than cars. they simply do whatever
they want.
but still, i firmly believe these changes are a huge positive overall.
~~~
cblum
> ironically, i'm more afraid of bicyclists hitting me than cars. they simply
> do whatever they want.
I’m in Seattle, not NYC, but this is an almost daily nuisance for me, both as
a driver and as a pedestrian. Cyclists in general seem to have an attitude
like rules and laws don’t apply to them. I see them blowing red lights,
disobeying all-way stops, and nearly running over people all the time.
~~~
adrianN
I think this is the case because in the US only extreme cyclists dare use the
road at all. When cycling becomes sufficiently safe that normal people do it,
the median cyclist becomes much friendlier to other people on the road.
~~~
tvphan
I think that's just wishful thinking. I'm from Melbourne where cycling is
pretty common (although not as hectic as in Holland). The cyclists here are
still pretty rude.
~~~
alisonatwork
There's a difference between rude and illegal. I think the original commenter
was speaking more about illegal behavior leading to accidents.
In my experience in cities where cycling is built into the architecture of the
city, most do tend to follow the road rules. However, a pedestrian might still
find it rude if a cyclist were to pass close enough to brush shoulders, or a
driver might find it rude for a cyclist to lane split.
From my perspective that kind of "rudeness" is just part city life, though,
it's not really something exclusive to cyclists.
~~~
cblum
Yeah, I was referring to outright illegal behavior. I really dislike the
"rules don't apply to me" attitude - seems so entitled.
On the rudeness aspect though, I do find cyclists in general pretty rude. I've
even seen cyclists that seem to outright seek confrontation by putting
themselves in situations that are unfavorable to them. For example, the other
day I observed a challenging traffic situation and a driver had to stop mid
turn at a corner. A cyclist was coming and saw the whole thing happen, but
they still positioned themselves such that a "hook" accident could occur once
things started moving again. As soon as the car started moving to complete
their turn, the cyclist also moved forward and started arguing with the
driver. It looked pretty clearly premeditated.
------
otterley
I'm actually thrilled about this idea, and I hope it spreads to other cities.
The key to effective mass transit is not the type of equipment (train vs. bus)
or the surface (rails vs. asphalt). It is the right-of-way, plain and simple.
All other things being equal, a transport that has right-of-way, unimpeded by
cross traffic, will be faster than a transport that has to deal with stop
lights, cross traffic, etc.
That being said, mass transit can be extremely expensive if you take too many
pains to construct the right of way off the surface. Digging is expensive and
dangerous. Building elevated platforms is also more expensive, and often
unsightly.
Now let's compare the means of traction: rails provide only fixed paths.
They're relatively time-consuming to fix if they break. And if there's an
equipment breakdown, if there aren't redundant paths with effective switching,
it can cause a head-of-line blocking problem (comparable to a message queue).
Meanwhile, tires are cheap and safe, while steering can easily avoid obstacles
and other dangers. And repairing asphalt streets is relatively inexpensive.
So: we have good road technology. We have wide-enough arterial roads, many of
which are already redundant. We have good-enough signaling technology now to
create a virtual right-of-way (by setting lights to red before the vehicle
crosses). Buses are pretty reliable these days, and far cheaper to manufacture
than train cars. They can also be outfitted to be quite nice inside.
So, to me, dedicated bus thoroughfares using existing streets are a no-
brainer. They win on cost, they win on effectiveness, and they win on time-to-
market.
I can totally see 1 out of every 4 streets being used in major cities as
dedicated bus thoroughfares as a viable alternative to building super-
expensive and relatively unreliable transit alternatives. I've often said I'd
love to see it happen in San Francisco. (The 1-in-4 idea being an
approximation for most people to walk to their ultimate destination in a
reasonable amount of time, but it's obviously adjustable according to block
size, geography, etc.)
(Footnote: for those who maintain residences on the impacted streets, there
should be various accessibility exceptions.)
~~~
zaroth
> _I can totally see 1 out of every 4 streets being used in major cities as
> dedicated bus thoroughfares as a viable alternative to building super-
> expensive and relatively unreliable transit alternatives._
Of course that would itself be incredibly expensive. Roughly 1/4 the cost of
all the roads in a city is a tremendously large amount of asphalt to maintain
exclusively for buses.
The local businesses will also really enjoy being derelicted.
~~~
otterley
I’m operating under the assumption that the roads in question are already
built and that the ongoing cost to maintain them is identical or less than the
ongoing cost to maintain them if they were open to all traffic. In other
words, no worse than the status quo.
~~~
zaroth
That doesn’t actually change the cost of the policy.
Repurposing an asset you spent $X to build is the same as spending $X on a new
asset for that purpose, minus any depreciation you took up till that point.
To your point, if road costs continue to be the status quo, then 1/4 of what
you spent on roads should now be covered by bus fares. That would make the
buses impossibly expensive.
I’m sure that people who like riding public transit buses would love this
policy, because your taking an already highly subsidized (loss leading) form
of transportation and making it an order of magnitude more subsidized by
giving them free private roads to ride on.
~~~
otterley
Perhaps you have a different understanding of what “expensive” means than the
generally accepted definition. Expensive generally refers to the outlay (the
expense), not the income, or the net income, or any other financial metric.
> repurposing an asset you spent $X to build is the same as spending $X on a
> new asset for that purpose
Does GAAP agree with your claim?
~~~
zaroth
Yes, GAAP accounting considers the payment for building the road as purchasing
an asset. Cash account goes down, road assets go up.
The depreciation _expense_ for using the road accrues to whoever/whatever it
is being used for.
If you allocate roads exclusively for buses, buses need to cover the cost of
maintaining the road.
Today buses can’t even cover the cost of running the buses.
~~~
otterley
> Yes, GAAP accounting considers the payment for building the road as
> purchasing an asset. Cash account goes down, road assets go up.
True.
> The depreciation expense for using the road accrues to whoever/whatever it
> is being used for.
False. Depreciation happens no matter what. The accountants don't care how
it's used. The taxing entity may care if you want to obtain a deduction for
the depreciating asset as a cost basis, but that's not an accounting question.
> If you allocate roads exclusively for buses, buses need to cover the cost of
> maintaining the road.
No they don't. Ideally, maybe; but that's a political question, not an
accounting question.
------
mnm1
They should extend the sidewalks so there's only two bus lanes and build some
protected bike lanes there. Make this permanent. Drivers will figure out a
way. I hope more cities do more of this. Cities can change. Just look at
Amsterdam now compared to the seventies. I have always and still do drive
around everywhere due to where I live, but this is the only way to change
things. Just do it. Hopefully the judges throw out the frivolous lawsuits that
prevent changes for the better like this.
------
voidwtf
I feel like the drivers did it to themselves. New York tried dedicated bus
lanes and the drivers continued to use the dedicated bus lane any time police
presence wasn’t obvious.
~~~
fitzroy
Agreed. I've started taking the M15 SBS in the last month and it would be
great except the driver has to honk and weave around vehicles stopped in the
bus lane on almost every block.
~~~
ckdarby
Could have been solved, first time $50 fine, and second time license revoked
for a month.
People will learn quickly
~~~
gambiting
UK has automatic bus lanes cameras in a lot of places and a database of
licence plates used by buses - if your car is not on the list you get an
automatic ticket. Also works pretty well.
~~~
mcpherrinm
NYC is getting these too, so hopefully that helps:
> The MTA announced that it will ramp up its fines for bus lane blockers
> captured through its new automated bus-mounted camera system. Motorists who
> defy the new rules after a 60-day warning period will be hit with a $50 fine
> that will increase with every offense up to $250. That will begin with the
> M15 SBS on October 7, with the M14 and B44 due to be equipped with the
> automated cameras by the end of November.
[https://ny.curbed.com/2019/10/2/20895121/14th-street-dot-
mta...](https://ny.curbed.com/2019/10/2/20895121/14th-street-dot-mta-busway-
launches-this-week)
------
antpls
Once in a while, the Champs-Elysées in Paris are closed to cars on Sunday.
When there were the yellow-vest protests, a large part of central Paris was
closed to cars on Saturday too.
It was pleasant to walk in the streets that time, the city looked more human,
with less noise, less honk, less stress. However, some cyclists and escooter
drivers are a bit uneducated, many of them don't respect stops or signs, they
don't slow down, and would pass at 2 cm from you at 20km/h like you do not
exist
Other than that, I'm 100% for banning cars and petrol-based motorcycles from
big capital cities around the world.
------
asauce
Honestly, I am a big fan of this. I lived in Calgary this summer, and downtown
they have a dedicated street for the train, busses, and emergency vehicles. No
regular vehicles are allowed to drive down this street.
It's genius. The train lines are above ground so the lines were cheaper to
manufacturer, Emergency vehicles can get across downtown very quickly, and
busses also don't have to deal with congestion.
------
ckdarby
All speculation, but isn't this how traffic management should always be done?
Shouldn't traffic be modeled and leave stats to just simply determine what
roads should be cars only, trucks, buses, etc?
~~~
jacques_chester
Simulating road traffic is a fertile academic and applied field. But that is
by far the easiest part. It's much harder to change the rules because then
humans are involved.
------
iron0013
This is a great idea, and would make sense in many other American cities.
------
dade_
Good luck New York with Andy Byford! I was never impressed with the man and
was happy to see him leave Toronto.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Good Practices for Writing Rust Libraries - jaxondu
https://pascalhertleif.de/artikel/good-practices-for-writing-rust-libraries/
======
jerf
This isn't really specific to Rust, but, while I wouldn't necessarily do all
this stuff while working through a tutorial on Rust, the start of a brand new
language is a great time to learn how to set up this sort of stuff on your
code from the very beginning. By definition, you must not have a lot of pre-
existing Rust code. :)
Many of these sorts of things are hell to retrofit on to existing code, but if
you integrate them into your workflow early, just shy of free over time to use
all along. It's "just shy of free" because the tools themselves train you over
time so that you get to the point where you start with conforming code, and
the tools are just cleaning up occasional slips rather than requiring you to
rewrite everything. So, you actually still net out less effort than trying to
retrofit later by making fewer mistakes overall in the first place.
I really can't recommend this enough when you're greenfielding something. It's
so cheap to start out doing the right thing and so very, very hard to fix it
later....
(Obviously, you need to tweak a few things during prototype/exploration, like
requirements for docs, but a lot of this stuff is still useful right away.)
------
steveklabnik
A lot of the stuff that interests me is how much this focuses on making things
automatic. Use compiler plugins to automatically check your code, use rustfmt
to automatically reformat your code, use highfive to automatically greet new
contributors, use homu to automatically ensure good CI, use Travis to
automatically upload docs, etc.
I like things that are automatic. That way, I don't forget about them.
~~~
Stratoscope
rustfmt makes me sad. So do the official Rust and Servo style guides.
The whitespace style they mandate ("column align all the things!") is wildly
impractical.
I used to use this exact same style myself, many years ago, but gave it up
when I saw how many problems it caused. I'll never go back to this kind of
column-aligned formatting.
Here's an example from the rustfmt source code:
let mut rewrites = try_opt!(subexpr_list.iter()
.rev()
.map(|e| {
rewrite_chain_expr(e,
total_span,
context,
max_width,
indent)
})
.collect::<Option<Vec<_>>>());
Here's how I would format that code instead:
let mut rewrites = try_opt!(
subexpr_list
.iter()
.rev()
.map( |e| {
rewrite_chain_expr( e, total_span, context, max_width, indent )
})
.collect::<Option<Vec<_>>>()
);
Or, perhaps if the variable names in the rewrite_chain_expr() call were a
little longer, like this:
let mut rewrites = try_opt!(
subexpr_list
.iter()
.rev()
.map( |e| {
rewrite_chain_expr(
e,
total_span,
context,
max_width,
indent
)
})
.collect::<Option<Vec<_>>>()
);
Either way, the difference is that I use indentation everywhere that the
rustfmt style uses column alignment.
This kind of indentation-based style has numerous advantages over a column-
aligned style. I wrote about this at some length previously, so rather than
repeat the details, here are my previous comments for anyone who is curious
about the rationale for this indentation style:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10206860](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10206860)
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9469713](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9469713)
Anyway, it isn't the rustfmt style itself that makes me sad.
It's the presumption behind these kind of rigid code reformatters. The bottom
line seems to be this collection of notions:
1\. Consistent code formatting and whitespace style is vitally important. So
important that an automated tool is required to insure that there are no
variations in formatting.
2\. The exact details of how code is formatted don't matter much. Any
formatting style is about as good as any other, as long it is 100% consistent
within a project (or language, or whatever). A professional programmer should
just find out what the standard is and follow it.
3\. There is nothing new to be learned in formatting style. The way we've
always done it is good enough, and as good as any other. (See #2.) If you have
new and different ideas about whitespace, they are unhelpful and unwelcome.
Stop bikeshedding!
And that is what makes me sad.
~~~
steveklabnik
The exact style hasn't been settled yet. We'll be going through RFCs, as
usual, for at least the major points. Rustfmt is a start to this, not the
final word.
(I would also format like #2, personally. I think Rustfmt might even have a
setting to do it this way?)
~~~
Stratoscope
Oh! In that case I have probably misjudged Rustfmt. My apologies. I was also
overdramatizing with the "makes me sad" bit. :-)
I'm not an active Rust user, so probably won't be involved in the RFC process,
but I'm glad to hear about it.
OTOH, even for a language I do actively use, I'm a bit reluctant to get
involved in a formatting standards process. So many people seem to approach
code formatting from a point of view of "This is how we've always done it,
this is consistent with other previous standards, so this is how it should
be." And then whoever gets the most agreement wins.
I don't often see discussions based on whether there may be actual engineering
advantages to one formatting style vs. another. For example, I put spaces
inside the parentheses in my function calls and expressions. Many see that as
an arbitrary stylistic choice - and object vehemently to it! - but it actually
ties in very closely to the column alignment vs. indentation choice in the
examples above.
I talked about that in some detail in one of the comments I linked above, so
won't belabor it further here. :-)
Maybe that's my beef with coding standards: they tend to take each style
decision as an independent, fairly arbitrary choice, instead of listing the
goals we're looking for and seeing how different style choices may work
together to achieve them.
~~~
tatterdemalion
I don't think there's very much empirical evidence about the engineering
advantages of different code style standards. Fortunately, Rust's approach
will always be to establish a reasonable compromise and allow you to deviate
for your projects (this is why rustfmt is designed to be configurable).
------
merb
What Rust and Go still misses is still the good IDE. On the C/C++ side you
could even use Eclipse and IntelliJ or Visual Studio. And still if you don't
like an IDE you could use an editor, however on rust / golang you are forced
to the editor, which could be aweful if the project is grown / big, at least
for me. Good practices are helping, however the best editorconfig could help
you if your codepage grown too big and you don't remeber the function of a
specific struct/class/whatever.
~~~
thristian
Have you tried writing Rust and Go in a plain text editor and had problems, or
are you a happy user of an IDE for another language and waiting for one to be
available before you try them out?
Some languages (the prime example being Java) are designed to have simple
syntax so that large-scale manipulations can be automated, and as a result you
really do need an IDE to work with them: few humans have the patience to find
all 59 places in a code-base where some function is called or overridden and
add a new parameter.
On the other hand, some languages allow humans the complexity to define their
own abstractions, like C++ templates or Scheme macros or Python's reflection
and metaprogramming. This extra layer of complexity makes it much harder to
write a good IDE, but it also makes an IDE much less necessary: instead of
editing all those 59 uses individually, if they were generated by a template
or a macro or reflection you can just edit the definition of that thing and
get the same result.
I'm guessing Go is in the minimalist-syntax-and-heavy-IDE crowd, although the
Go community seems to prefer to write their heavy automation as standalone
tools (see: go fmt, go fix). Rust has a fairly impressive macro system, so I
would have expected it to be a complex-syntax-and-text-editors language but
the Rust authors seem very keen to have some kind of IDE support. Whether they
believe Rust actually needs it, or if they just want to check off a commonly-
requested feature, I don't know.
~~~
merb
> Have you tried writing Rust and Go in a plain text editor and had problems,
> or are you a happy user of an IDE for another language and waiting for one
> to be available before you try them out?
I tried both out, but I'm a Scala / Python User mainly and I loved the IDE's I
have. Currently especially Autocompletion and my Shortcuts, like search
Classes, Types, etc helped me on being productive. Also jump to definition is
a feature I often use.
Yes I could even use java without an IDE or Scala however it's not as
comfortable and I feel that when I'm programming on an editor I spent a few
hours a week tweaking it. While on a IDE i just replace 'some' shortcuts.
Still I think even GO needs a better IDE, since the projects with a few lines
are gone and even if you don't write as many lines as in java you still
getting a pretty big codebase when you write something useful.
Putting everything in his own library won't help / it will make the problem
even scarier since you now need to remember a bigger import path.
Rust is similar and still I love it despite the crates/modules system, since I
think it has some rough spots. However they improve the docs regulary which
makes things more clear, still it's hard while coming from python/scala/java
to have a rust like import path.
------
cpeterso
It would be nice if the Rust documentation had a centralized list of std and
core traits. For example, I see a summary of the std crate's exported types,
modules, and macros but no traits. Such a list would be useful for library
developers who want to maximize their library's potential for reuse by
implementing all relevant core and std traits.
[https://doc.rust-lang.org/nightly/std/index.html](https://doc.rust-
lang.org/nightly/std/index.html)
~~~
tatterdemalion
Hopefully this will help:
The traits defined in std are listed in the modules that they are defined in,
just like all the other kinds of types (structs and enums) defined in std.
The top level modules of std are themselves linked from the main index of std,
of course, and you navigate through them to find the types you care about. The
primitive types have links on the main index of std because they otherwise
wouldn't appear in the API documentation (since they are primitive and thus
aren't defined in any module), but most types are not (e.g. HashSet<T> isn't
linked from the main index). The macros have links on the main index of std
because they aren't imported using the module system.
What you're probably refering to though are the traits re-exported by the std
prelude, which are automatically imported into every Rust module. The prelude
is described on this page (linked to from the std main index):
[https://doc.rust-lang.org/nightly/std/prelude/](https://doc.rust-
lang.org/nightly/std/prelude/)
The prelude mostly imports traits, but it also imports a few other kinds of
items as well: some types (like Option<T> and String) and at least one
function (drop()).
But what traits your type should implement is not really connected with what
traits are imported in the prelude.
------
jzwinck
What about good practice for the actual writing of Rust library code? I know
C++ and there we have advice such as not reordering virtual methods, not using
STL types in public APIs, not reusing enum values, exception safety, RAII,
etc. What about in Rust? What are some guidelines for writing libraries which
will give their users maximum convenience and safety? Is there a stable ABI,
and if so what do library implementers need to know about it? How about
writing C APIs in Rust?
~~~
kibwen
> not reordering virtual methods, not using STL types in
> public APIs, not reusing enum values
There's no reason to worry about any of these in Rust. The design of the
language is intended to minimize and discourage footguns in general.
> exception safety
Exception safety is only a concern from within `unsafe` blocks. If you're
using `unsafe` blocks at all, 1) really try not to, 2) if you still must use
them, read The Rustonomicon first (here's the specific chapter on exception
safety: [https://doc.rust-lang.org/nightly/nomicon/exception-
safety.h...](https://doc.rust-lang.org/nightly/nomicon/exception-safety.html)
).
> What are some guidelines for writing libraries which
> will give their users maximum convenience and safety?
Not many guidelines spring to mind. The first is still "don't use `unsafe`
blocks if you can help it" (the OP gets into this by mentioning the lint that
denies unsafe code in your program, which gives your users an easy way to
determine your policy on avoiding unsafe code). The second is "don't panic in
library code, use the Result type instead".
> Is there a stable ABI
Nope! Far-future work.
> How about writing C APIs in Rust?
Now _this_ is something that could use real documentation and advice like
you're requesting. Nothing authoritative springs to mind, but here's a recent
experience report on the process to get people started:
[http://www.joshmatthews.net/blog/2015/10/creating-a-c-api-
fo...](http://www.joshmatthews.net/blog/2015/10/creating-a-c-api-for-a-rust-
library/)
------
Keats
Anyone knows when the compiler plugins will be stable?
~~~
mook
Related, at what point will "use a stable build, not a nightly" be a good
practice for libraries? Actually, do people mainly use nightlies or releases
for development? (Of libraries and apps, not the toolchain itself, obviously.)
~~~
Manishearth
It already is a good practice.
Most people seem to use stable.
I work on tools so I prefer nightlies (but I use multirust so it's easy to
switch). And Servo (which I also work on) uses its own snapshots.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
What Will Replace PDF? - chrisstpierre
PDF-like documents are a very common need. However, PDF as a format is not the best. Documents are not reliably consistent across platforms/readers, and have vulnerabilities. It really seems like something that should be replaced, but isn’t. What will replace it?
======
NonEUCitizen
Actually, PDF _is_ the best there is -- it may not be perfect, but nothing
else is as "reliably consistent across platforms" as PDF. Your assumption that
it "should be replaced" is not widely shared.
Microsoft tried to promote its very good, open, and well-documented XPS
format, but it didn't take hold.
------
PhilWright
Anything you replace it with will, over time, suffer the same problems. If it
becomes popular then it will have vulnerabilities. As technology and its uses
change, it will need updating to match and so become versioned and have legacy
features and complications in implementation. That is just what happens to all
formats. Many people just use PDF as a simple way and showing documents and
printing them out on standard office printers.
------
PaulHoule
Microsoft's XPS format is one of the few direct competitors. Then there was
Yann LeCunn's DjVu format which takes the radically different approach of only
being a format for encoding documents as images (as opposed to text and
vectors)
It's much easier to call out PDF for what you hate about it than to make
something that covers the same use cases better.
------
tannhaeuser
What about HTML+SVG? Where HTML is merely and atypically used to bundle
multiple embedded SVGs, and the SVGs are already prerendered as SVG doen't
support refloating and paging? Though do we really a new print-oriented, non-
responsive format?
------
gshdg
One advantage PDF has over many of the alternatives being suggested here is
that it’s not read-only. I have yet to see a fillable form in an ePub doc for
instance.
------
dredmorbius
ePub seems a posible contender, thouh many individual pubs are _horribly_
formatted.
PDF remains highly usful, particularly in its fixed pagination. Though small
devices fare poorly. Tablets are about perfect, form-factor wise.
Another option is publish-to-endpoint, on demand, allowing selection of, say,
PDF, HTML, or other preferred format.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
NoSQL East 2009 day 2: Pig/Twitter, Cascading, Neo4j, Redis, Sherpa/Yahoo - uggedal
http://journal.uggedal.com/nosql-east-2009---summary-of-day-2
======
antirez
There is some problem with the numbers for Redis:
"Can do 19,600 gets and 13,900 sets a second on a MacBook Pro"
In my macbook (not PRO) Redis performs like this:
% ./redis-benchmark -q
SET: 34705.88 requests per second
GET: 31055.90 requests per second
INCR: 28739.25 requests per second
LPUSH: 35013.98 requests per second
LPOP: 30496.95 requests per second
^C
But redis _sucks_ on Mac OS X compared to how it performs on Linux. The same
macbook running Linux reaches almost 100k query/sec. An entry level server
running Linux is in the 150k/sec zone.
Sorry but I spent some time in order to make Redis so fast, so to see numbers
an order of magnitude less does not make me happy ;)
About the replication: Redis supports master-slave replication with very very
fast first synchronization. The replication is non-blocking, this means that
if you attach N slaves to the master it continues to reply to clients without
troubles when synching with the slaves.
If the link between master and slaves goes down the two will resynchronize
again automatically. It's possible to use a replica in order to enhance data
durability.
Replication can be controlled at runtime. For instance if you want an instance
to become a replica of another instance all you need to do is something like
this:
echo -e "slaveof 1.2.3.4 6379\r\n" | nc 1.1.1.1 6379
Final note about the snapshotting persistence mode, in Redis edge on git there
is already support for append-only journal, that makes Redis an option even
when data is very important.
~~~
lucifer
The benchmark is a C program. Do any of the clients come close to matching the
benchmark?
~~~
antirez
Yes, it's just about parallelization.
If you meter the performance, even of a C client, in a busy loop, you are
really measuring the round time trip, because it's a request-reply protocol,
and most clients block until the reply is not ready.
Even using a Ruby / Python / ... client, if you run N of this clients, you'll
see that Redis can handle this number of queries every second.
~~~
lucifer
I understand that. I was gently hinting that the conf. presenter probably was
using a (single) client given his audience.
As an aside, from the end user's point of view (assuming the typical end user
is a web 2.0 app), the _throughput_ isn't the only consideration. Even with N
clients having 100k/s _throughput_ , request latency is likely going to be N*
the 1/tps. ~ 0.1 ms is probably the sort of request latency the end user is
going to be looking at, and not .03 ms (taking your mac numbers as baseline).
Bump up the number of clients and that latency is gonna get higher, even while
throughput gets better.
This has nothing to do with redis (which is great). Just something to keep in
mind when looking at this sort of performance measures.
~~~
antirez
I agree with you that requests/second is not the only or more sensible
parameter to meter performances, this is because redis-benchmark reports
latency percentile too. I just suppressed the output in the example, but it
looks like this:
====== SET ======
10008 requests completed in 0.39 seconds
50 parallel clients
3 bytes payload
keep alive: 1
1.03% <= 0 milliseconds
38.83% <= 1 milliseconds
73.12% <= 2 milliseconds
95.34% <= 3 milliseconds
97.93% <= 4 milliseconds
99.50% <= 5 milliseconds
99.75% <= 7 milliseconds
99.84% <= 8 milliseconds
99.93% <= 9 milliseconds
99.94% <= 10 milliseconds
100.00% <= 11 milliseconds
25401.02 requests per second
As you can see under this load most clients are served in 4 milliseconds or
less, including both the transmission of the request and the reception of the
full reply.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Bitcoin breaks $3K to reach new all-time high - janober
https://techcrunch.com/2017/08/04/bitcoin-3000
======
mmaunder
That was quite a stair step up around 8pm PDT. Anyone know what happened?
[http://imgur.com/a/W6m6n](http://imgur.com/a/W6m6n)
~~~
xiphias
In the last week there was a fear of the Bitcoin Cash fork splitting the
community. The fork failed so spectacularly that the biggest problem for
Bitcoin / Bitcoin Cash holders was how to dump Bitcoin Cash when all reputable
exchanges are afraid of implementing Bitcoin Cash. Now it's clear for most
people that Bitcoin Cash failed.
Also Segregated Witness will lock in on Aug. 8 with a very high probability,
and activate at the end of August.
~~~
oskarth
> The fork failed so spectacularly
Really? How do you quantify this? Most people who are pro big blocks felt it
went well (r/btc) and it'll take a while to make it profitable for miners to
mine it. Many people who are against big blocks thought it'd immediately dive
to $1, which is 1/200 of where it is currently at. It also seems like many
pro-Blockstream people would dump Bitcoin Cash regardless, just because they
don't believe in the rationale for it (r/bitcoin threads about how to sell
Bitcoin Cash w/o analysis).
You could argue about market liquidity etc, but 4B market cap is hardly a
failure. This doesn't mean it is a success. It is more accurate to call it
_undecided_ for the time being. To call it a failure is definitely premature
and uncharitable, though.
~~~
xorcist
> people who are pro big blocks [...] > people who are against big blocks
Please don't play up this narrative unnecessarily. It's an easy narrative, but
it's also wrong and misses important things about governance and identity. It
makes it sound like the Segregated Witness proposal, which won supermajority
support on the development list, does not increase block size (which it does,
just in a backwards compatible way).
It has been known for quite some time that apart from a bug in the software,
that could destroy value in an instant, the biggest challenge will be managing
an open source project in the face of competing interests. It's the first time
the IETF governance model meets fintech, and if Bitcoin continues to grow it
will make the patent drama round rtcweb look like child's play.
> pro-Blockstream people
This is also simplifying beyond what's reasonable. Bitcoin is an open source
project. There is a mailing list. You can join it.
It's not always roses and civilized technical discussion, but every argument
can be heard out and there are enough people lurking the sidelines to act as a
guard against abuses of power.
The Blockstream narrative plays down the contributions of Lau, Lopp, Lombrozo
and dozens of others which do a lot of the development and release management
of the software.
~~~
makomk
Using the Blockstream narrative to dismiss contradictory ideas is basically
how r/btc maintains their belief it's a success. It's been very entertaining
watching them seize on every big block as proof the "small-blockers" are wrong
that nodes couldn't keep up even though the overall transaction rate is
actually a small fraction of Bitcoin's right now and arguing that the price
going up was a sign that everyone claiming they'd dump their BCH was lying
back when no exchanges were accepting deposits.
Also, as you point out big block isn't really the defining characteristic of
the Bitcoin Cash fork since in principle Bitcoin is having a block size
increase in the near future too. The bigger difference is ripping out the
SegWit fix for transaction malleability, with the stated intention of making
Lightning Network off-chain payments which require malleability to be fixed
not work. In an interesting attack of irony, the ViaBTC exchange (one of its
main proponents) just has to stop withdrawals because transaction malleability
was breaking them:
[https://twitter.com/ViaBTC/status/893744282087047168](https://twitter.com/ViaBTC/status/893744282087047168)
~~~
xorcist
> The bigger difference is ripping out the SegWit fix for transaction
> malleability,
Sure, and as ironic as it may be that BCH deposits was malleability attacked
earlier today, I still don't think it is a good idea to focus on the technical
features of these forks. Who is behind the fork is more interesting than what
is in the fork.
This is not a conflict among developers, with a few notable exceptions. This
is a governance conflict. That is why the conflict is not very visible in the
developer community, but rather outside in social media.
The open source project is a multi stakeholder model which can be very foreign
to people who consider themselves influential. In many ways it looks more like
academia than a corporation. Everyone would like the developers on their
payroll, but no one wants to pay for it. Pretty much like academia, I suppose.
------
perpetualcrayon
Not saying the alternative (fiat) is a substantially better alternative, but
this is what happens when markets aren't regulated.
My prediction: There are going to be a lot of naive poor folks who are going
to become poorer, maybe even dirt poor, and some very savvy wealthy people who
are going to be even more wealthy when this is all said and done.
~~~
divenorth
The more that I think about banks the more I realize they are no longer
relevant. Why do I need to pay a "bank" to keep my money that is simply stored
as a digital record? Seems absurd once you stop and think about it.
~~~
vkou
The primary purpose of banks in our society is not storing money, but lending
it out.
~~~
divenorth
Of course. But then why am I paying bank fees for a checking account? And
savings accounts don't even pay enough interest to cover inflation.
~~~
EduardoBautista
Have you bothered to read the requirements for waving the bank fees? And if
you are concerned with beating inflation, you are supposed to look into, at
the very least, bonds or something similar.
Savings accounts are more suited for money you will need at any moment.
~~~
divenorth
Of course I have. I need to keep $3000+ in my checking account. Either way I'm
paying for the account either by lending them the $3000 or by a $15 a month
fee. Either way I lose out especially since I don't think I'm getting any
value from my bank. I'm planning on switching banks.
I have some money in other investments but I just think banks are a rip off.
------
wfunction
Can someone explain how old Bitcoin works post-fork? Can you sell the same old
Bitcoin twice now? Is this already priced in somehow and still going up?
~~~
JoshTriplett
Bitcoin works the same as it always did. However, anyone who had N Bitcoin on
a particular time on August 1 also has N "Bitcoin Cash" using the same private
keys, and can go spend that separately on the forked blockchain, without in
any way affecting their existing Bitcoin. Both have their own price and
market, and they don't interconvert beyond that one-time thing except by
selling/buying/trading between them.
~~~
wfunction
Thanks! Isn't this something a currency should fundamentally prevent? I don't
know of any real-world currency that can be used twice.
~~~
AgentME
Bitcoin Cash is a separate project and currency from Bitcoin. You can't pay
someone who is expecting Bitcoin by sending Bitcoin Cash to them or vice-
versa.
Bitcoin's code is open source and the balances of all addresses are public, so
anyone could create a fork (a new separate currency based on it, optionally
starting with the same balances).
~~~
wfunction
Right, but presumably a reasonably large merchant would find that they need to
accept both though, right? And now you would have more purchasing power with
them which feels a bit weird, since the old Bitcoin and the new Bitcoin would
not have the same purchasing power...
~~~
dongcarl
Right now, the exchanges have only just allowed Bitcoin Cash deposits. I'm not
aware of any merchant that accepts Bitcoin Cash. I believe that because of the
massive price difference (purchasing power) between Bitcoin and Bitcoin Cash,
merchants would have to accept them just like merchants accept different
currencies in Hong Kong (RMB, HKD, USD).
~~~
mirimir
You can just convert your BCH to BTC.
~~~
dongcarl
True! But that alone usually isn't enough for merchants to want to accept a
cryptocurrency. (e.g. very few merchants accept ETH or LTC).
~~~
mirimir
Sure. But my point is that there's no need for merchants to support BCH. Or to
keep supporting BTC. As long as it's easy to exchange one for the other. As it
is with ShapeShift.
------
paulpauper
Been long bitcoin since 2013. I felt like I was late but it has been awesome
.glad I ignored the headlines about bubbles . the news is useless. for every
bubble they call correctly, the get 10-20 of them wrong. Bitcoin is like
General Electric..its not going anywhere. Against all odds it succeeded and
surpassed everyone's expectations.
~~~
xupybd
It will crash, its only a matter of time. It's also to be seen if it'll crash
to a value lower than it currently is. Even if bitcoin becomes a major
currency there will be overshoot in its value.
~~~
oskarth
This type of prediction comments always strikes me as nonsense and containing
zero actual information. If you believe this, either post fundamental analysis
that argues your case and have the hope of providing some valuable insight, or
- even better - put your money where your mouth is.
The same thing happened when people claimed to be 99.999% sure Trump would
never be president, but of course they never actually bet any money on it.
One could argue the grandparent doesn't argue their point either, but they
definitely seem to put their money where their mouth is. All these people who
are so against crypto and like to sit at the sidelines moaning about a bubble,
why don't you either short it or bet against it? A la
[http://blog.samaltman.com/bubble-talk](http://blog.samaltman.com/bubble-talk)
~~~
pg314
You can be right that it will crash and still lose your shirt if you short it,
if you are wrong about the timing. As Keynes said: “the market can stay
irrational longer than you can stay solvent.”
There is an inherent asymmetry between going long and short. If you're going
long, your losses are capped at what you put in, and your gains are unlimited.
The opposite is true if you are going short: your losses are unlimited, but
your gains are limited.
~~~
SeoxyS
You don't have to sell short, you can buy puts which give you far greater (not
unlimited) upside than your capped downside.
~~~
pg314
True, but then your timing is even more crucial. You can be right about a
coming crash, but if it happens after your put option expires, it won't do you
any good...
------
gaetanrickter
A rising tide lifts all boats and I can imagine this breakout boosting the
entire cryptocurrency market. Just wait until we enter a bear market, we'll
start seeing just about every cryptocurrency spike in value.
~~~
runeks
Perhaps if you measure in USD. Measured in BTC, Bitcoin Cash has been nothing
but falling for the past couple of days:
[https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/bitcoin-
cash/#BTC](https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/bitcoin-cash/#BTC)
~~~
pmorici
Bitcoin Cash is only a few days old. It is going to take some time for the
market to find it's true price. That will take more and more exchanges
supporting it so that markets function more smoothly. In the meant time it
would be expected that there are wild price fluctuations and differences in
price globally.
------
mrkgnao
This link posted a couple days back may be of interest:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14891968](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14891968)
------
nikolay
Yeah, but look at the trading volumes - at least an order of magnitude lower
than 2 years ago!
~~~
sygma
24h volume 2 years ago was around 22 million USD [0] Trading volume in the
last 24 hours is 1.6 billion
[0]
[https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/bitcoin/#charts](https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/bitcoin/#charts)
~~~
foepys
OP meant the Bitcoin trade volume, not the US-Dollar volume. The BTC trading
volume is extremely low currently. [0]
0:
[https://data.bitcoinity.org/markets/volume/2y?r=week&t=a](https://data.bitcoinity.org/markets/volume/2y?r=week&t=a)
~~~
kobeya
He said "the trading volumes." Could have been either, but BTC trading volume
is even more meaningless than USD trading volume. An inflation-adjusted
aggregate volume is probably the best metric, which is closer to the USD trade
volume than BTC.
------
vedoza
now bitcoin price $3,173
[https://www.exchangeratesdata.com/convert/BTC/USD/](https://www.exchangeratesdata.com/convert/BTC/USD/)
------
discombobulate
Programmable money makes coders powerful.
For some reason, a large fraction of HN hates crypto. They seem to like
getting fucked up the ass by everyone. Groveling to VCs for funding. Looked
down on my MBA-types.
Coders/hackers should be embracing what's happening. Finally, merit > dick
sucking.
~~~
tasuki
What merit?
~~~
discombobulate
Investment. Tokens sales are going to fund projects without gatekeepers.
Personal brand is going to become more important.
You're on an investment website -- for startups.
------
jjlane
buying all that afghani heroin 10 years ago really fucked me out of being a
millionaire
------
jeremynixon
Legendary. Huge thanks to all of the engineers behind segwit.
~~~
erentz
But segwit isn't active yet is it? Is it likely to go ahead?
~~~
dongcarl
I usually check the status here: [https://www.xbt.eu](https://www.xbt.eu)
Since 100% of the blocks mined during this period has been SegWit, I would say
it's very likely that it gets activated!
~~~
runeks
It’s not a matter of probability. Miners decide what to do, and right now a
majority of them will ignore non-SegWit blocks. Doesn’t mean they can’t change
their minds, though.
------
lightedman
It had to reach an all-time high, otherwise there's no way there's going to
possibly be any money to back Bitcoin Cash, since I'm pretty sure the people
that forked it have no real assets to back up this currency otherwise.
~~~
kgwgk
I'm not sure if this is a joke, but certainly I hope so.
~~~
lightedman
Where'd the sudden money come from to back Bitcoin cash? Who put in the
initial currency valuation? Did you watch the quick and near-parity change in
price between Coin and Cash, only for Cash to suddenly double and then drop
right back toparity with BC, then the jump to over 3,000 on Coin to nearly-
mirror the needed missing reserve to back Cash?
It's pretty simple - follow the money. The pattern is BEYOND evident.
------
tryingagainbro
So it's 2009-2010 and someone has $6000 laying around. Hears about Bitcoin and
buys 100,000 shares at 6 cents each. Wakes up in 2017 and miraculously all is
there, in the old computer. $6000 to $300,000,000 in 7 years.
Have we ever seen such appreciation in an investment /speculation?
Oh, it will crash, as soon as a 'better' cryptocurrency comes in. It has value
for as long as people buy it.
~~~
0x0
I'm curious - if you actually had $300m worth of bitcoin and started selling
it, would you be able to actually sell everything off for that price before
the price started dropping like crazy? Would whatever exchange you're using
even be able to wire $300m USD to your bank account after the sale just like
that?
~~~
ErrantX
Well you'd have 100,000 BTC which is handily also approximately the daily
trading volume looking across all the exchanges (at a cursory glance; I
expected it to be higher). So it would take more than a day but not a
significantly long time to shift them.
------
generalseven
I'm a board member and founder of
[https://www.bitcoinwednesday.com/](https://www.bitcoinwednesday.com/)
What happened on 1 August and with the prices immediately after suggests how
the conflict over the blocksize has been widely misreported.
Bitcoin was not ripping itself into two in a civil war, but innovating new
forms of governance and token distribution for new projects.
We now have a technically proven, and from the looks of it, established new
method of token distribution that is arguably far superior to crowd sales and
ICOs.
If you don't like the BCH or Bitcoin implementation, there are already
hundreds of other cryptocurrytencies, but you can also fork your own from the
biggest, original (and arguably most widely distributed).
BCH now has a "market cap" of about $3.7 billion dollars, probably a world
record for a startup (open source project) that was literally released to the
world a few days ago.
If you own bitcoins before the fork, you should now own equal amounts on both
sides of the coin, and (hopefully) soon will be able to buy or sell either
token, depending on your preference.
Bitcoin itself has a $52 billion dollar market cap right now post fork not
only because it survived the challenge and may soon implement Segwit, but
because it will be one of the best chains from which to fork new projects.
There is no need to take sides from this perspective. Just sell the token you
don't like and use the gain to buy more that you do like. OTOH, it's perfectly
fine to like and hold both just like it was once okay to use more than one web
site.
[post edited: BCash to the more neutral BCH ]
~~~
antocv
BCash is a fork ZCash.
For running a bitdoinwednesday you seem to be misinformed about what bitcoin
is.
~~~
generalseven
Indeed I stepped right into the next "civil war" by using "BCash" instead of
its symbol, BCH.
Chill out, please. I don't want to see it fail at all.
Read my original remark more closely. This is good for the whole industry. We
are holding both.
| {
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