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elmlang
general
I think in this philosophy that even bug fixes fall into this bucket — sometimes the way to fix a bug is not a point fix but a larger rearchitecting.
2019-01-30T19:47:34.597100
Dede
elmlang
general
I personally think the debugger should be the showcase of the language and architecture, time-travelling debugging (especially with the pure guarentees that TEA provides) is what sold me on elm originally.
2019-01-30T19:48:51.598200
Jenice
elmlang
general
I feel like the time traveling is more "cool" than actually "useful" though
2019-01-30T19:49:24.598900
Nana
elmlang
general
I work a lot with websockets and I find it real useful
2019-01-30T19:49:50.599500
Jenice
elmlang
general
yeah I suppose in that case, or when making games, it could be pretty useful
2019-01-30T19:50:46.602000
Nana
elmlang
general
but regardless, I just think the communication levels could be improved, today I heard for the first time that the bug which hampered a lot of peoples development experience a lot was being worked on, which I appreciate.
2019-01-30T19:51:00.602300
Jenice
elmlang
general
i actually agree with that sentiment which is why i was hoping to work on the debugger a lot more. the thing about it though is that the status quo debugger doesn't really accomplish that goal and it would be a long term project to do that. so in our calculus that doesn't justify treating the --debug flag bug as an emergency release
2019-01-30T19:51:18.603000
Lashawnda
elmlang
general
> today I heard for the first time that the bug which hampered a lot of peoples development experience a lot was being worked on this is just gonna happen to some folks from time to time. we actually communicate about this more frequently than some of us would personally care to, it's just that there are multiple forums, and they all have folds for content to fall behind, and we inevitably repeat stuff
2019-01-30T19:53:34.604300
Lashawnda
elmlang
general
this is not the first public conversation that i've had about the --debug flag, and it's definitely not first time i've responded to the suggestion of doing a bugfix release for something
2019-01-30T19:56:28.606500
Lashawnda
elmlang
general
Again I'm sorry I just don't subscribe to that, why not just remove the debug flag for now?
2019-01-30T19:57:20.606600
Jenice
elmlang
general
I honestly think you should just remove the --debug flag for now
2019-01-30T19:57:32.607000
Jenice
elmlang
general
that seems a bit extreme :face_with_raised_eyebrow:
2019-01-30T19:58:05.607800
Nana
elmlang
general
It just feels like a really bad experience to have as a newcomer
2019-01-30T19:58:40.609000
Jenice
elmlang
general
but that also requires doing a bug fix release, which we have to implement, and then build and test on all the platforms, and then update all of the installers, and then write and distribute announcements
2019-01-30T19:58:50.609500
Lashawnda
elmlang
general
maybe a bit extreme :see_no_evil:
2019-01-30T19:58:55.609800
Jenice
elmlang
general
it's like multiple days of stuff for several people at minimum
2019-01-30T19:59:08.610100
Lashawnda
elmlang
general
I guess its a choice between the work or the people who hit the bug
2019-01-30T20:00:15.611400
Jenice
elmlang
general
I don't know enough about how the team structure work to comment really
2019-01-30T20:00:40.612200
Jenice
elmlang
general
just to turn off a thing that people don't use very much in the first place and could proceed without, and then totally reverse some amount of time later when the bigger picture change is done
2019-01-30T20:01:37.613000
Lashawnda
elmlang
general
Alright
2019-01-30T20:02:23.613200
Jenice
elmlang
general
I appreciate the chat anyway, it has helped clear things up a bit
2019-01-30T20:02:49.613700
Jenice
elmlang
general
I have got to go bed now really
2019-01-30T20:03:06.614200
Jenice
elmlang
general
I hope you see mainly my comments come from a love for the community and language
2019-01-30T20:03:21.614600
Jenice
elmlang
general
oh definitely, this was a good conversation!
2019-01-30T20:03:36.615000
Lashawnda
elmlang
general
cheers
2019-01-30T20:03:53.615200
Jenice
elmlang
general
good night!
2019-01-30T20:04:16.615700
Lashawnda
elmlang
general
I’m not the architect of the idea. But I think the notion is that even minor releases like that detract from the impact of the story of the major release.
2019-01-30T20:26:45.617000
Dede
elmlang
general
The Elm guide is the best place to start
2019-01-30T20:32:24.617300
Earlean
elmlang
general
<https://guide.elm-lang.org/>
2019-01-30T20:32:47.617500
Earlean
elmlang
general
<https://github.com/rtfeldman/elm-spa-example> is one good example of a large Elm app.
2019-01-30T20:33:59.617700
Earlean
elmlang
general
<https://github.com/elm/package.elm-lang.org> is another good example that does some things differently
2019-01-30T20:34:51.617900
Earlean
elmlang
general
Hi, jessta! Thanks. I read the guide a couple of years ago, and this is a great idea
2019-01-30T20:38:41.618100
Alison
elmlang
general
I'll deffinitely check out those two projects. Thank you
2019-01-30T20:39:21.618300
Alison
elmlang
general
anyone with tips on how to create ios8601 date strings with timezone offset?
2019-01-31T04:55:12.619400
Selene
elmlang
general
You can fork <https://github.com/rtfeldman/elm-iso8601-date-strings/blob/1.1.2/src/Iso8601.elm#L405-L427>
2019-01-31T04:58:31.619700
Earlean
elmlang
general
what about a warning in the console about using `--debug` that links to one of the github issues/discourse posts?
2019-01-31T06:32:05.621200
Tyisha
elmlang
general
is there really no easy way to get the timezone offset with elm/time?
2019-01-31T07:04:09.621700
Selene
elmlang
general
Zone is an opaque type, so i cant access its values
2019-01-31T07:07:12.622000
Selene
elmlang
general
all i can use is `getZoneName` which gives me the zone name not the offset
2019-01-31T07:07:44.622400
Selene
elmlang
general
I guess a convoluted way to get there would be to use `toHour` and `toMinute` with both `utc` and the current time zone. :slightly_smiling_face:
2019-01-31T07:21:23.623600
Bert
elmlang
general
That seems like a reasonable way to do it since the offset is specific time dependent
2019-01-31T07:31:23.624200
Earlean
elmlang
general
thx for the hint, i will try that
2019-01-31T07:42:41.624600
Selene
elmlang
general
If you have a time, you can use <https://package.elm-lang.org/packages/justinmimbs/time-extra/latest/Time-Extra#toOffset> to calculate the offset for a given timezone at a certain point in time
2019-01-31T07:44:25.625400
Huong
elmlang
general
Which probably does what <@Bert> suggested under the hood :smile:
2019-01-31T07:44:49.625800
Huong
elmlang
general
this is exactly what i need. :raised_hands:
2019-01-31T07:48:04.626400
Selene
elmlang
general
if you compile in debug mode , does elm use Html.keyed for optimization or is that disabled?
2019-01-31T07:52:00.626900
Olevia
elmlang
general
<@Olevia> `--debug` doesn't change the way your app works, it just enabled the debugger
2019-01-31T07:54:09.628800
Earlean
elmlang
general
uh sorry i meant DEV mode
2019-01-31T07:54:51.629600
Olevia
elmlang
general
the one where you get the message in the console saying so
2019-01-31T07:55:00.630200
Olevia
elmlang
general
You shouldn't see any difference between compiling with `--optimize` and without it.
2019-01-31T07:55:11.630700
Earlean
elmlang
general
Are you seeing something different?
2019-01-31T07:56:56.632900
Earlean
elmlang
general
Just figuring out our options, we have a pretty substantial grid and it feels sluggish
2019-01-31T07:57:25.633900
Olevia
elmlang
general
And I'm using elm-ui so im pretty sure ever el is keyed by default
2019-01-31T07:57:51.634900
Olevia
elmlang
general
so i was wondering if it wasnt enabled or something
2019-01-31T07:58:05.635300
Olevia
elmlang
general
or rather, every el in col and row is keyed
2019-01-31T07:58:11.635800
Olevia
elmlang
general
`Html.keyed` is mainly there to optimise when you have a list of items, and items might get inserted or removed or moved around
2019-01-31T08:00:13.638100
Shenita
elmlang
general
so if you insert an item at the top of a list, elm knows not to just modify the existing node at the top of the list, but instead to create a brand new node for that first item and then to reuse the existing node for the second item
2019-01-31T08:01:27.639300
Shenita
elmlang
general
if that makes sense?
2019-01-31T08:01:34.639500
Shenita
elmlang
general
so making every node keyed is generally not ideal, only when you have dynamic lists of things
2019-01-31T08:02:26.640600
Shenita
elmlang
general
nah i get it, i just thought they did it on every element by default
2019-01-31T08:04:34.643000
Olevia
elmlang
general
but looking at the docs i can see they have that in a seperate module
2019-01-31T08:04:43.643400
Olevia
elmlang
general
ah right fair
2019-01-31T08:04:46.643700
Shenita
elmlang
general
so im gonna go and key some stuff and hope it boosts performance
2019-01-31T08:04:52.643900
Olevia
elmlang
general
:+1:
2019-01-31T08:05:02.644200
Shenita
elmlang
general
good luck :slightly_smiling_face:
2019-01-31T08:05:06.644400
Shenita
elmlang
general
Hey everybody ; I've had that crazy notion of adding `Traversal`s and maybe `Fold`s to `Monocle` for quite some time already, but even though I have a rough idea of what they are and why I'd use them, I'm a bit uncertain on how to implement them "the right way" and can't seem to find any decent beginner-friendly explanation on the web. So here I am reaching out for someone(s) with either knowledge about them or ideas on how to implement them to have a chat and help me straighten the way somehow.
2019-01-31T08:37:19.645500
Antonette
elmlang
general
``` (modBy 180 60) ```
2019-01-31T09:22:58.646000
Selene
elmlang
general
this should by `0` right? :thinking_face:
2019-01-31T09:23:04.646200
Selene
elmlang
general
You're calculating 60 modulo 180 there
2019-01-31T09:24:35.647000
Bert
elmlang
general
oh :flushed:
2019-01-31T09:25:10.647700
Selene
elmlang
general
It's sort of "pipeline optimized" I guess
2019-01-31T09:25:13.647900
Bert
elmlang
general
yeah i see
2019-01-31T09:25:25.648500
Selene
elmlang
general
``` 180 |&gt; modBy 60 ```
2019-01-31T09:25:33.648800
Bert
elmlang
general
:github:
2019-01-31T09:25:36.649000
Selene
elmlang
general
Can you infix or do you have to pipe if you wanted to write it like that?
2019-01-31T09:26:25.649700
Danika
elmlang
general
No there's no infix syntax in Elm anymore. It used to work that way.
2019-01-31T09:30:45.650300
Bert
elmlang
general
Ah cool
2019-01-31T09:38:09.650600
Danika
elmlang
general
I personally dislike infixing functions `like this` anyway
2019-01-31T09:38:22.651000
Danika
elmlang
general
oh yeah ofc slack will turn the backticks into code.. :')
2019-01-31T09:38:31.651300
Danika
elmlang
general
we know what you mean :smile:
2019-01-31T09:39:53.651600
Florencia
elmlang
general
for optics there exists <https://github.com/evancz/focus> if you havent seen it already
2019-01-31T09:43:18.651700
Mirian
elmlang
general
Nope, I hadn't :slightly_smiling_face: thank you, I'll look into it.
2019-01-31T09:44:11.652000
Antonette
elmlang
general
Just looked. It's just another `Lens` implementation, but less complete than `Monocle` (<https://package.elm-lang.org/packages/arturopala/elm-monocle/latest>) to which I contributed and want to contribute by adding `Traversal`s.
2019-01-31T09:47:00.652200
Antonette
elmlang
general
yeah sorry I just realized what you mean in your question
2019-01-31T09:47:42.652400
Mirian
elmlang
general
It's ok, I do this too once in a while :wink:
2019-01-31T09:48:02.652600
Antonette
elmlang
general
^^
2019-01-31T09:48:48.652900
Danika
elmlang
general
maybe Edward Kmett talks will help you with this
2019-01-31T09:49:10.653100
Mirian
elmlang
general
I remember he goes in quite a detail about optics
2019-01-31T09:49:25.653400
Mirian
elmlang
general
and how they work
2019-01-31T09:49:29.653700
Mirian
elmlang
general
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cefnmjtAolY>
2019-01-31T09:50:09.654600
Mirian
elmlang
general
not sure how beginner friendly it is though as I am not an expert on this :smile:
2019-01-31T09:50:52.654800
Mirian
elmlang
general
Thanks :slightly_smiling_face: I'll see if it clicks for me.
2019-01-31T09:50:54.655000
Antonette
elmlang
general
I've noticed that there are so many ports threads on discourse and not a single browser API suggestion (well, there's the media API one from <@Cammy>, but that's a very recent one).
2019-01-31T09:51:40.655500
Dayna
elmlang
general
Would having a tc39-like proposal system for Elm work? I think it would be helpful to standardize the process
2019-01-31T09:53:33.657900
Dayna
elmlang
general
In fairness, this is my fifth attempt in a year at that api. It’s an extreme uphill battle to perfect and get it accepted. I honestly don’t know if I would subject myself to it again. There have been others, too, canvas is the one I remember most vividly.
2019-01-31T09:53:54.658200
Cammy
elmlang
general
That doesn't sound... great.
2019-01-31T09:54:25.658500
Dayna
elmlang
general
The BDFL proposal system is we get what we’re given :joy:
2019-01-31T09:55:35.660400
Agustin
elmlang
general
:joy:
2019-01-31T09:57:08.662400
Danika
elmlang
general
It’s tough. For one thing my timing was bad. My first proposal was a few weeks before the announcement of the no native policy. And I had no idea what the process would look like...and I’m not sure anyone else did either. I honestly think the discussion of ports will always remain (people who are learning want to push boundaries), but grow much smaller in volume as the platform expands. But I am frustrated at the lack of progress. All of the work is falling on Evan’s shoulders, and he’s doing an incredible job, but he’s just one man. I think it’s a situational challenge that needs to be figured out. I’m trying to do my part, and media api is my domain. But it’s been really hard.
2019-01-31T09:58:14.664000
Cammy
elmlang
general
Thanks for taking your time to respond.
2019-01-31T10:14:01.664600
Dayna