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800 | 7 | QUESTION:
Without your knowledge. Do you know what has happe ned
to that charge now?
ANSWER:
I believe that the charges have been dropped, for w ant
of a better phrase. Yes, I think there were nine
registrants altogether, and I believe now they have
been removed.
|
801 | 7 | QUESTION:
You have said in your statement that you were at so me
stage a trustee of the MacFarlane Trust.
ANSWER:
Yes.
|
802 | 7 | QUESTION:
What can you tell us about the trust from that
perspective?
ANSWER:
Not very good things. It seemed that they always
wanted to bring people down to a level, not raise t hem
up to a level. There's very little empathy with HI V
or AIDS-related conditions, what people were going
through. It was just not fit for purpose.
There were two of us that were infected
haemophiliacs and worked as trustees. There was
definitely a trustee board within a trustee board, and
we weren't part of that. Some of the decisions tha t 6
were made, although they were supposed to be
throughout the board, we were never consulted. Thi s
happened without us.
Some of the -- I sat on the NSSC, which was the
grant-making, and I use that term loosely. I will
bring one example up, which proves the mentality. At
that time you had to send pictures in if you wanted
things like your windows replacing for damp or
whatever. A lad had sent in a picture of a bay win dow
which was completely rotten. Photograph got passed
around. Open and shut case. Windows are rotten.
A particular individual pointed out, "Well, he can
afford a PlayStation and a packet of cigarettes, ca n't
he?"
Now, a lot of individuals when they were
diagnosed, especially young individuals, never left
the house. They lived on a computer. They lived, you
know, a different life. So it just proved there wa s
no understanding there whatsoever, at all, and I do n't
believe he got the grant, so ... But that's just on e
example.
|
803 | 7 | QUESTION:
You have given, I think, two examples in your
statement of the decisions of the EIBSS; not decisi ons
personally in relation to any application by you, b ut
that you, through your campaigning or Birchgrove Gr oup 7
activities, have had some knowledge of. One was ab out
a member of your group, the Birchgrove Group, who was
taken ill on holiday.
ANSWER:
Oh, yes.
|
804 | 7 | QUESTION:
What do you recall about that, without mentioning a ny
names?
ANSWER:
No. He will mention his own name. Yes. He was ta ken
ill on holiday and there was a shortfall in holiday
insurance, and they basically refused to pay. It w as
£100-odd, something like that. They refused to pay
because it was HIV related. Again, it is all sorte d
now, that HIV thing. It's all gone away.
The other was a funeral grant. If you have got
hep C, you can get a funeral grant, but HIV is nowh ere
on the list and people are still dying of HIV-relat ed
conditions.
|
805 | 7 | QUESTION:
There's a passage in or a couple of passages in you r
witness statement I am just going to read out, with
your agreement, where you try and describe what the
effect overall has been on your life, of the events
you have described. You say this:
"From that brief time in 1985, my life both
physically and mentally have never been the same. How
can it be? I can only speak from my perspective as
a man of 20, just married, with my whole life ahead of 8
me, with my new wife, who wanted to grow old, to
become a parent, a grandparent, and then to find ou t
in that way that it wasn't to be. From that day on ,
nobody can ever be the same. I, we, carried on, no t
telling anybody for fear of what may happen. We wo uld
see 'AIDS scum' on the news, on the TV and sprayed on
walls and think, 'Luckily nobody knows about us', b ut
we were still afraid of coming home and finding tha t
written on our house or car as many others did."
You say this:
"This isn't over. The mental and physical anguish
goes on. The gallows humour of who will be the las t
one of us standing hides what we all fear and have
feared for many years. Our lives ripped apart by
this, and even further infections in following year s,
and yet we are okay according to medical sources."
Then you say this:
"Those of us alive who are walking and breathing
can hold conversations about normal daily things, b ut
the viruses are always lurking in the background.
Nobody who hasn't been in our position could ever
understand, and that isn't meant as a sympathy
statement. It's a fact."
Those are the questions I have for you, but before
I ask you what else you would like to add, I am jus t
9
going to ask Mr Snowden if there's anything else
he would like me to ask. No.
What else would you like to say?
ANSWER:
Just a couple of sort of angry, bitter points that
I usually bring up.
I think our community has been let down
historically by the Haemophilia Society, who pushed
Factor VIII at a time when haemophiliacs were dying in
America. They carried on and carried on pushing th e
fact that we should use Factor VIII more and more a nd
more.
After that time, they vanished from the community.
There was token gestures, but they didn't want
anything to do with the HIV community. It disgusts
me. It really does.
When I worked on the Birchgrove, the individual
that ran the society at the time used to pay us as
Birchgrove to cover any HIV-related stories so the
haemophilia magazine didn't have to cover it. That 's
what -- they didn't want to frighten off the newly
diagnosed haemophiliac children, et cetera, et cete ra,
and also with the ties with the pharmaceutical
companies.
That's one thing I really hope that this Inquiry
brings out, the in-depth links with the society.0
Also, the mattress(?) which we have spoken about.
Again, I think all the trusts warrant their own
Inquiry. Again, the thing we touched on is I do
believe that haemophilia, whether it is infected,
co-infected, whatever, people need more education
through the hospitals about haemophilia. They have n't
a clue, and in an emergency situation, haemophilia
will kill you in a short amount of time. This
knowledge seems to have vanished over the last ten
years.
So I think, yes, I think that's about all I have
got to rant on about really.
|
806 | 8 | QUESTION:
And you have described your former husband in this
way:
"He lived a very normal life. You wouldn't have
known he was a severe haemophiliac. He lived life to
the extreme and then an extra 10%, to the annoyance of
his parents."
ANSWER:
Yes.
|
807 | 8 | QUESTION:
You bought a property together at a very young age.
ANSWER:
Yes.
|
808 | 8 | QUESTION:
And you married at a very young age --
ANSWER:
Yes.
|
809 | 8 | QUESTION:
-- in 1984, when you were just 18.
ANSWER:
Yes.
|
810 | 8 | QUESTION:
We have already heard from him about the glandular
fever that he had in 1984, early 1984. Can you rec all
anything about that?
ANSWER:
Yes. At the time I was living with his parents,
because we'd bought the house and it was just going
through and I had to find a job in that area, so we
moved in with his parents so I could work and find
a job. I mean, it was pretty different times then.
You know, we had 100% mortgage. We realistically h ad
no idea what we were doing. We just knew what we
wanted to do. I knew that I wanted to move forward
with my life. I wanted, you know, to, dare I say i t,
have more than my parents. My father always said - -
sorry.
|
811 | 8 | QUESTION:
It is all right. Take your time.
ANSWER:
Blimey. I have got no chance if I'm crying already ,
have I?
My father always said that we were cannon fodder,
you know. As working class people, that's what we
were. Well, I didn't want to be cannon fodder. So
I met [redacted]. We both were very focused on doi ng
the best we could, achieving the best we could. Ye s,
we had aspirations, but they weren't mad aspiration s;
they were just aspirations of being the very best w e
could.
The ironic thing is we both thought Maggie
Thatcher was amazing and, in fact, she was killing us.
So, you know, she said, "You can be anything you wa nt
to be, it is just up to you". We said, "We can be
anything we want to be, it is up to us", and that's
the decision that we made. That's who we were. I' d
just like to lie that down because, you know,
everything that came afterwards totally destroyed
that.
|
812 | 8 | QUESTION:
And that's how you had started your married life at
this very young age.
ANSWER:
Yes.
|
813 | 8 | QUESTION:
With buying a home and with aspirations to do the v ery
best for yourselves that you could.
ANSWER:
Yes.
|
814 | 8 | QUESTION:
We have already heard about [redacted] being taken ill
in the early part of --
ANSWER:
I'm sorry, you asked me about glandular fever.
|
815 | 8 | QUESTION:
No, that's all right.
ANSWER:
I completely went off on a tangent.
|
816 | 8 | QUESTION:
Don't worry, I had forgotten I asked the question.
ANSWER:
So we were living with his parents and he got reall y
ill, but [redacted] was the type of person that did n't
really get ill, and even though he had bleeds and h e
had issues with haemophilia, it was never an issue.
We used to -- I mean, like he said, we had scooters .
We had Lambrettas and we used to travel around the
written by Dr Franklin to your GP, Dr Jones, about the
risk of transmission of HIV to mother and to foetus .
You didn't see that letter at the time, but you hav e
made this observation about it in your witness
statement. You have said that:
"That effectively confirms the terrifying position
that we were in. We didn't know if he was going to
test positive, but we were being told that the risk of
our baby having HIV, if he was positive, was
sufficient to justify an abortion."
|
817 | 8 | QUESTION:
You have told us how very young you were at the tim e.
We have got a photo that shows that very clearly.
Could we put up the photo, please? It is only goin g
to be shown in this room. We can see there a pictu re
on the screen of the two of you at this time, littl e
more than children.
ANSWER:
Yes.
|
818 | 8 | QUESTION:
You did have a termination in August of 1985.
ANSWER:
Yes.
|
819 | 8 | QUESTION:
That [redacted] was HIV positive was subsequently
confirmed. You were tested and at that point in ti me
the test came back negative.
ANSWER:
Correct.
|
820 | 8 | QUESTION:
In the years that followed the diagnosis in 1985, y ou 0
have described them in your statement as being
incredibly difficult years.
ANSWER:
Yes.
|
821 | 8 | QUESTION:
You thought your husband was going to die.
ANSWER:
Yes, but he never did. So basically our life just
carried on the same, and all that happened is it
became more and more difficult for [redacted] to ac t
rationally. I am sorry, because, you know, he
obviously is in the room. It was difficult, you kn ow.
I was working four jobs. I didn't drive. So I use d
to ring him at night to come and pick me up and he was
so pissed that he couldn't. So I'd either walk or I'd
drive -- sorry -- or I'd get somebody to give me
a lift or I'd bus.
So I used to do split shifts. So I used to get up
in the morning, walk to the bus stop, catch two bus es,
walk to work, finish my shift, catch two buses, go
home, catch two buses, walk. Okay? So this was my
life. All it was was a drudgery to try and keep us
together as a couple and try and maintain some sort of
normality.
Well, I don't -- when I look back at those times,
I don't actually know how we got through them. And
people talk about their experiences with HIV and, y ou
know, how they had support of their family, they ha d 1
support of people around them. Some did; some didn 't,
you know. We had nothing, you know, and to this da y,
to this day, you know, for every bit that we have,
a new chair and everything else at the Haemophilia
Society, you know, I swear to God that Haemophilia
Society, regardless of whether we were on their
membership, they should have come and knocked our d oor
and said, "Can we help you? How can we help you?
What can we do?" But no, they didn't. No, they
didn't. Nobody cared, and you couldn't talk about it.
So in the drudgery and keeping the bills going and
[redacted] not working and [redacted] drinking,
I don't know where I fitted in with that, because a ll
I did was act like that was my husband and there wa s
no restriction at all, because he was my husband an d
what else could I take away? I am sorry if that
sounds right, wrong or indifferent, but that's how it
was.
|
822 | 8 | QUESTION:
In 1989 you found out that you were pregnant again.
ANSWER:
Yes.
|
823 | 8 | QUESTION:
You discovered that I think quite late.
ANSWER:
Yes.
|
824 | 8 | QUESTION:
And you went to see your GP.
ANSWER:
Yes.
|
825 | 8 | QUESTION:
What can you recall your GP saying to you?2
ANSWER:
I don't -- if I'm honest, I don't -- I think, if
I look back on it now and if I'm perfectly truthful
with you, probably since that day, which is, what,
30 years ago, 20 years ago -- no, 30 years ago, my two
pregnancies have been one, because I can't actually
cope mentally with one, let alone two. Okay? So
I don't know what I said to that GP. I don't know the
conversations that we had. I just know that if I'm
not working and I've got a child and we are in this
situation, truthfully, is that a good environment, bad
environment, you know? I'm just scared and I don't
know what to do, and I'm still scared, because I ma de
that decision. The worst part about that decision is
that 30 years later I'm having to justify that
decision and I don't know that I can. Sorry.
|
826 | 8 | QUESTION:
Would you like a break?
ANSWER:
I'm so sorry.
|
827 | 8 | QUESTION:
There's no need to apologise at all. Would you lik e
a break?
ANSWER:
No. I'm okay.
|
828 | 8 | QUESTION:
There's some water beside you.
ANSWER:
I'm not sure I can hold it, but yes, thank you.
|
829 | 8 | QUESTION:
You have said in your statement -- and I will read
a sentence from your statement, if I may -- about t his
time:
3
"I was a frightened young woman who went to my GP
for help and I was made to feel like I had no other
option than to terminate my pregnancy. I can no
longer even comprehend what was said to me to make me
agree with what they wanted."
ANSWER:
No. I don't -- so we talk about, you know, having to
recall what we went through and, you know, the more
conversations that people have, the more this isn't
virus-led at all, you know. I don't care.
Virus-wise, I don't care about animosity. I don't
care. All I care about is decisions that people ha d
to make that are just beyond comprehension.
You know, every person in this room has got
a story. Every person has got an individual story.
People have lost people. People have grown up with out
their dads. Even grandchildren are involved in thi s.
It is just so wrong. It is just so wrong that we a re
having to recall this stuff, and not only has it
destroyed us then, but it is destroying us again an d
again and again. I hope this is an end to that, yo u
know, because I don't want to wake up every morning
and class myself as a murderer, because that is wha t
I do.
Now, the worst part about being in this room is
actually thinking that I am going to be judged, and4
that is so difficult, and that actually is a situat ion
that I've been put into that is absolutely no fault of
my own, you know. I cared for my husband. I loved my
husband. You know, how much do you take away? You
know, we are in a situation where we were at an age
where, if we had had kids then, we would have done.
We missed out on the sperm washing. We were too ol d
for that.
Now, if I look back and think about the fact I am
not a grandchild -- sorry -- grandmother, you know,
I am bitter, and I am really sorry for everybody th at
I have hurt in that bitterness, but I cannot keep
justifying and keeping our story told, because ever y
time it gets told, it kills me a little bit more. And
I don't want to die anymore, you know. I want to
live. That's what I want, and that's all I want fr om
this Inquiry.
I am sorry. I have gone off on a tangent again.
|
830 | 8 | QUESTION:
You haven't at all.
You have in your statement described what happened
on the day of the termination.
ANSWER:
Yes.
|
831 | 8 | QUESTION:
And I have heard you talk about that before.
ANSWER:
Yes.
|
832 | 8 | QUESTION:
It is entirely a matter for your decision as to 5
whether you want to say anything about that now,
whether you would like me to read that passage from
your statement, or whether you would rather we did not
talk about it further.
ANSWER:
I think that you have to talk about it, because tha t
is what happened. You know, we are in 1989. We ar e
in a situation where celebrities are dying, you kno w.
This is not underground anymore. This is massive, you
know, and even I don't talk about [redacted] being
a haemophiliac. We don't talk about [redacted] bei ng
a haemophiliac, even to people we have known for
years, you know. We just do not talk about it.
When I went in, I was put in a room on my own , and
there were not only biohazard stickers everywhere b ut
everybody -- you know, when you get people coming b ack
from Ebola, that's all I can liken it to, and you s aw
them being wheeled across with all their stuff in.
That's the situation that I was in.
I was treated by the nurses like I was a murderer,
like what I was doing was completely and utterly
wrong. I wasn't allowed to leave the room. I had to
use the commode. [Redacted] was asked to leave. H e
couldn't be there, couldn't be by my side. Nobody
spoke to me during the whole time that I was there.
They were just rude. And at the end of it, when th e 6
doctor came in to see me the day afterwards -- beca use
you have to remember that I had to give birth to th at
child, you know. I don't -- and when you have to
completely shut that out in your mind, because on
Monday you have got to go back to work and keep the
house over your head, it becomes something rather - -
an out of body experience, you know. It didn't hap pen
to me. It wasn't me. I didn't do that. But I did .
And then at the end, you know, when I am being chec ked
out, whatever it is, the doctor said to me, "Women
like you should be sterilised". What do I say to
that, you know? But that's what she said on her
parting shot.
|
833 | 8 | QUESTION:
You said in your statement you went home. The two of
you never discussed it again, and then you have no
idea how you made it through the weekend, and on
Monday you had to go back to work as if nothing had
happened.
ANSWER:
Yes.
|
834 | 8 | QUESTION:
You were offered at that time no counselling and no
support.
ANSWER:
No. I wouldn't even know what that was, if I am
honest. What is that? You know, at the time I was n't
aware -- I know it sounds ridiculous -- that
counselling even existed. What is that? I don't
7
know. I didn't know at the time.
|
835 | 8 | QUESTION:
You have said in your statement that the fact that you
had two terminations as a result of the Contaminate d
Blood Scandal is something you struggle to live wit h
on a daily basis. You don't know how you made thos e
decisions and you have been unable to forgive
yourself.
ANSWER:
I can't. How can I, you know? How can I? And how
can you move forward, because time and time and tim e
again, when you think that you can settle, that you
can get on, it comes back. It comes back and we ar e
here again talking about it.
Realistically, did I want to come in and give this
statement? No, not a cat in hell's chance. I don' t
want to be here. Do I want to put my life on the l ine
and what people think of me? No, I absolutely do n ot.
Because I hate me. So why would I want to give oth er
people that benefit? I wouldn't, but I have to.
I have to. Who knows how many Positive Women died?
I am not even sure there are any figures. We cared
and we loved our husband, and for that, some of us
became infected and some of us died. So please
recognise us, because we are here.
|
836 | 8 | QUESTION:
We will come back to your reference to Positive Wom en
and some of the complaining work you have done in 8
a little while.
ANSWER:
Yes, yes.
|
837 | 8 | QUESTION:
Following 1989, you and [redacted] increasingly liv ed
separate lives. You have described how you were
working multiple jobs. You felt isolated in a priv ate
world in which you had no-one else to talk to, and you
have said in your statement that seeing each other was
a constant reminder.
ANSWER:
Yes. So realistically I guess that 1989 was my
turning point of intelligence, for want of a better
word, and I thought about me for once, you know. I n
all that time I thought about me and the need to
protect me, you know, and then I guess that is wher e
the disconnect began, because how can you love
someone, marry someone and take away that intense l ove
that you have without destroying it, without
destroying the marriage? You can't. They can't ex ist
side by side. They don't. They can't, you know. Not
for us, because we were passionate people. We were
believers. But the belief was going and the passio n
was going too.
So I lived a separate life, you know. I didn't
tell people about [redacted]. People didn't even k now
I was married. I took my ring off, you know.
I completely and utterly blocked myself off from it , 9
and I used to go home and look after [redacted].
I used to go to the hospital. He wouldn't go to th e
hospital. He wouldn't have medication. He wouldn' t
eat properly. You know, all this stuff just mounts
and mounts and mounts and mounts, and you become so
oppressed by this as a person, taking away what we
have already been through, because by this point I am
like, "Right, that's it now", because I have to be
strong. I have to forget that, because that's gone ,
that's done. Okay? Then you become strong.
So your compassion is gone, because all you've got
is fear, hate, regret, resentment, and that builds and
builds and builds and builds, and you build a barri er,
and the barrier you build is so strong, it is so
forceful, because it is not only protecting people
around you, because you might hurt them seriously w ith
either your words or your actions, but it's protecti ng
me. It is protecting my soul, because if I lose a bit
of it more, I am not sure what I am going to do, an d
each time this happens, that little bit of soul goe s,
you know.
People talk about suicide and they post their
statuses up and they post -- I have thought about i t
loads. I have thought about it loads. I am too sh it
scared to do it, but I have thought about it. I ju st 0
think if I just had the strength to do that, these
voices in my head might -- might -- just for
one minute stop destroying my soul. But I pick mys elf
up and I say, "No, that's fine, we will carry on", and
that's what I do every time.
So I guess it's a coping strategy, you know, that
I made. I paid all the bills, you know. I mean, w e
were in such debt, it was incredible, you know.
I picked up things from the MFT that I had sent for .
Incoming, £500. Outgoings, £730. What? You know,
how was I even existing? I have no idea.
|
838 | 8 | QUESTION:
In 1997 the two of you separated, 1997/1998, and yo u
went to stay with your mum.
ANSWER:
Yes.
|
839 | 8 | QUESTION:
You became over the following months very ill and y ou
lost an awful lot of weight.
ANSWER:
Yes. So in -- see, I don't know when I left, wheth er
it was 1997 or 1998, to be honest.
|
840 | 8 | QUESTION:
Don't worry.
ANSWER:
I think it was 1998. So I went to live with mum, G od
bless her, and on the New Year's Day 1998 I was
violently sick. I had walked home from a friend's.
She always had a New Year's Day party and I was jus t
violently sick. Nothing else, no other symptoms, j ust
this sick. I just got progressively worse. So I w as
1
going into work and I just was going for different
tests. So I had all sorts of tests. I had endoscop y,
every test going. I couldn't keep food down.
I got to such a point that I hadn't eaten or drunk
for three days. A friend of mine took me to hospit al
and they took me in straightaway. I was 5.5 stone by
then. I am not a big girl anyway, you know, so
I didn't -- it was quick for me to lose the weight.
But I was dying, basically.
They discovered oesophageal candida in my throat
and the doctor said to me, "You have either got can cer
or you've got AIDS". Of course I've got AIDS,
because, you know, that's history. Not my history,
because I believed I didn't, because at the beginni ng
I would have said -- I don't know whether I became
complacent that I was okay. I don't know. But
I never, ever thought that I was HIV positive.
|
841 | 8 | QUESTION:
And you had been tested in 1985 --
ANSWER:
Yes.
|
842 | 8 | QUESTION:
-- and in 1989.
ANSWER:
Yes.
|
843 | 8 | QUESTION:
Those tests were negative.
ANSWER:
Yes.
|
844 | 8 | QUESTION:
But when you were tested again in 1999, the test ca me
back positive.2
ANSWER:
Yes.
|
845 | 8 | QUESTION:
And you were told, your statement says, that you ha d
probably been infected by then for a number of year s.
ANSWER:
They say -- I mean, obviously it is very hard to sa y
with HIV. So you can't categorically say, "This is
when I was infected". But it could be to my mind t hat
when I was tested in 1989 there was, you know, a fa lse
positive or whatever. But honestly I don't know.
I think it's got to be there, but I don't know.
|
846 | 8 | QUESTION:
You say in your statement that you had been advised by
the MacFarlane Trust not to keep going for tests --
ANSWER:
Yes.
|
847 | 8 | QUESTION:
-- because that might impact upon your ability to g et
a mortgage or insurance.
ANSWER:
Yes, yes. I mean, you've got to remember at that t ime
we couldn't have any insurance because of [redacted ].
We couldn't have any cover on our mortgage. So eve ry
time he'd lose a job, we'd get no cover, we'd get n o
support, and then we'd get another loan to cover th at
bit, you know, and it built up and it built up.
I could not put myself into a position of losing my
grip the same way as [redacted] had, because who el se
is there then? We are going to lose everything. S o
that was my decision to make. And to be honest wit h
you, I do think that I was complacent, that I thoug ht 3
I was okay.
|
848 | 8 | QUESTION:
Over the years that followed you have suffered from
a number of opportunistic infections --
ANSWER:
Yes.
|
849 | 8 | QUESTION:
-- through having HIV, and the treatment process fo r
you has been far from straightforward. We have got
a letter that shows some of the problems you have h ad
with the different medication regimes.
ANSWER:
Yes.
|
850 | 8 | QUESTION:
Henry, it is 1388004, please: it says this. It is
a letter dated September 2019 from Dr Roberts:
"To whom it may concern."
It explains you have:
"... had a complex antiretroviral history, having
been initially on a combination of Combivir with
Efavirenz from July 1999 to June 2005. She started to
develop lipodystrophy which was a well-recognised
complication of AZT component of Combivir and
therefore switched to Truvada in June 2005."
Pausing there, I think you have had to have
reconstructive surgery because of the lipodystrophy .
ANSWER:
Yes.
|
851 | 8 | QUESTION:
"In March 2009 it became clear that she was develop ing
classical side effects to Efavirenz with memory and
sleep disturbance and made a further switch to Truv ada 4
with Atazanavir/Ritonavir."
ANSWER:
The Efavirenz or however we say it -- because I hav e
no idea what tablets I am even on now, they are
yellow -- that was probably one of the most
destructive drugs, because you got psychotic issues ,
real psychotic issues. I think we have heard from
a few people that were on different drugs over the
years and they have made decisions about things. No w,
that might be the HIV or it might be AIDS or it mig ht
be the drugs.
So, you know, a lot of these drugs had side
effects and had debilitating issues on your life wh ile
you were taking them, but you didn't really know th at
they were doing it. Did that make sense?
|
852 | 8 | QUESTION:
It does.
ANSWER:
So, you know, it is only when you talk to other peo ple
and you think, "I am on that drug and that does do
that for me", because you just accept that is
a process within your infection, so ...
|
853 | 8 | QUESTION:
Then we can see that the letter records as recently as
2018:
"In 2018 we observed a deterioration in her renal
function, and as data concerning the use of TDF
tenofovir became clearer that this agent can be
associated with reasonable tubular disorders, added to
5
which we undertook a bone density scan on
9th April 2018 which showed a minimal density in th e
lumbar spine and both hips ..."
It goes on to record that those are recognised
complications of the drug regime. It then refers to
a switch to TAF and Genvoya in February 2018 with
an improvement in your renal function, but then aga in
it reports recent complications in May of this year ,
weight gain, troublesome central distribution of fa t
deposition, an increasingly recognised complication of
intergrase inhibitors which are contained within th e
Genvoya combination started in 2018.
So yet again very recently your drug regime has
changed last month to Symtuza. It says you are ver y
pleased with the current combination therapy and ha ve
ongoing virological suppression. That has been
ongoing for about a month.
ANSWER:
Yes. The thing is with each drug and each differen t
side effect -- so I am a big believer in looking af ter
yourself and looking the best you can and being the
best you can. Whatever happens to us, that has nev er
been taken away. I look after myself. I eat well and
exercise. I do look out for myself. This is even
destroying that. I can't run anymore. I find it
difficult to walk because of my hips, because they are 6
in pain. You know, it stops every single thing you do
every step of the way, you know, and it is so
frustrating, because you don't want it to, but it
does.
So I don't know what effects this has had on my
renal area. I don't actually know what that means.
Actually, I don't really want to know, you know. I t
is just something else to worry about, you know.
I had an opportunistic infection in a very vile pla ce
that now means that from a -- I am sorry if this is --
from a toilet point of view it makes my life
difficult, you know.
But you can't see that, and the DLA or whatever it
is, they don't care. They don't want to know. You
are just -- that's just happened to you because it is
okay, because you can have a tablet a day, you know .
And if I hear anybody say that to me, my God, I mig ht
just deck them, because come and sit in my shoes.
Come and sit in all our shoes.
I am not taking anything away from anybody else
and I never would and I never have, but they want t o
take it away from me, you know, and I will fight yo u
every step of the way for you to understand what we
have been through, not just psychologically, not ju st
physically, but our whole life, you know. 35 years . 7
35 years of trouble, stress, unhappiness. Enough n ow.
|
854 | 8 | QUESTION:
You have related in your statement that you have
suffered from cognitive difficulties in relation to
concentration and memory.
ANSWER:
Very difficult when you are an accountant, you know .
When [redacted] and I were going through really,
really rough times, I decided that I was going to t ake
myself back into education. So in 1996 I signed up
for -- I don't even know -- HNC -- I don't know if
they even do them anymore -- in business management
and economics. Now, this is a girl that failed
elementary maths and basically, you know -- but wha t
I have done is I have run a house and I know how to
rob Peter to pay Paul. So really that's just
mathematics, isn't it? Because you just balance
things out.
So during the time that was going on with
[redacted] I spent two nights a week at college,
because it was respite, and it kept my mind active.
I didn't think about stuff, I just was busy with
learning. Everything was a thirst to learn.
So I finished my HNC, which I passed with
distinction, and I started my foundation degree.
I started my foundation degree in 1998, and quite
clearly I was sick then. So even though I'd got 8
admitted into hospital in the August when, you know ,
we are in recess, in September I am back in college
doing my foundation degree. So that is where I am,
you know.
I have lost my way a bit, haven't I?
So during all that time I always kept active with
my education. So I went from the foundation degree
and I did a Bachelor's degree in business and
economics, which I again passed. I started my
Master's, but it was just too much. Enough now,
council girl, you have reached your limit of your
education.
So, you know, for me there's always been
a distraction. I went on then to do my English and
maths GCSEs just to prove I could. I did sign
language. I kept busy with different things and
I always wanted to aspire to be -- I don't know wha t
that aspiration was. At one time it was a teacher,
another time it was nutrition, but I just wanted
a focus, and that's where I was.
The more time has gone on, the more difficult it
is to concentrate. I am not just talking about goi ng
upstairs, forgetting the fact -- what you have walk ed
up for. I am 53. That happens. It is just -- you
know, I am here now in a situation that I feel so
9
passionately about and I believe so much about, so
I can tell you that as soon as I am in a situation
where I am not comfortable and I am learning and I am
educating myself, it is not so simple anymore. Tha t's
the difference.
So if you are going to sit and read something that
you know nothing about, you have got no knowledge
about and it goes in and, you know, you can absorb
that -- you have to take into account I am getting
older as well -- you can absorb that -- you can't.
You can't. I can't even tell you what it is. I ha ve
a conversation with [redacted]. By the end of the
conversation neither of us know what either of us i s
talking about.
At the end of the day, we were in a marriage like
that, because realistically I was infected and neit her
of us were on drugs, you know, and the whole thing
just became this great big, huge monster that we ha d
got no control over that you take distraction tacti cs
about. [Redacted]'s distraction tactics were
scooters. He didn't care how much anything cost
because the money was there. Until it wasn't there .
Then we had to find it. Then I had to make sure he
was okay, that we didn't know.
So you have got to understand that protection 0
aspect of loving someone so much that it doesn't
matter what the situation is. If anyone in this ro om
married somebody and something happened to that
person, they'd do everything, because they love the m,
you know, but this has been allowed to take that lo ve
away. It's been allowed to take my compassion away .
I don't want to do that anymore. So ...
|
855 | 8 | QUESTION:
You have told us how there was an absence of help a nd
support in the early years. Very recently, this ye ar,
you have been receiving trauma therapy --
ANSWER:
Yes.
|
856 | 8 | QUESTION:
-- from a clinical psychologist.
ANSWER:
Yes.
|
857 | 8 | QUESTION:
You say in your statement over the years you have
tried some forms of earlier therapies.
ANSWER:
Quite generic. You know, you could go through the
National Health Service before, because there was some
kind of help for mental health. I mean, there is
nothing now. You can try generic therapists. But, to
be honest, they never really get to it, because it is
packed so tightly away that you don't want to bring it
out. Unless you bring it out, you can't address it ,
you know.
This lady has tried a technique on me, because she
diagnosed me with post-traumatic stress, which we h ad 1
a laugh about last night, because it is not really
post, is it, because it is still going on.
Post-traumatic stress syndrome. She has been amazi ng,
because although I haven't been able to hold it
together that much here today, I don't want to be
angry and bitter anymore. I just want it to stop. So
in order to do that I need to find therapy that wil l
do that, you know.
So she's been really good, and I have to say, you
know, through everything with EIBSS -- and I know
everybody has problems and everybody has issues, an d
I am not saying that they're any good because none of
us want a support system. We all talk about benefi ts
and passporting -- I have never had a benefit in my
life apart from DLA when I was first diagnosed with
HIV, or AIDS, should I say. I don't want to be on a
benefit system. I'm sure nobody in here wants to b e
on a benefit system. We want to be able to live ou r
life, you know, and be afforded that opportunity to do
so.
I have lost track again. I am sorry. What did
you ask me?
|
858 | 8 | QUESTION:
Not at all. You were talking about the counselling .
That has been funded through the EIBSS.
ANSWER:
So I had to obviously jump through a large amount o f 2
hoops in order to get this, but I believe that I ne ed
to heal and I'm passionate enough that I can put th is
together to get this healing, because it is the rig ht
time for me. It might not be the right time for
everybody else, but I feel it is the right time for
me, and EIBSS, although they are a pain in the arse ,
compared to the MFT, my God, they are kittens.
So I guess we are all hardened to that aggressive,
matter of fact, throwaway of us, because we've put up
with it for so long, but, you know, we are human an d
we do want to be treated that way. So no support
system, no matter what support system they put in
place, will ever recognise that because it is just
a support system. That is not what we want and not
what we deserve.
|
859 | 8 | QUESTION:
You heard the evidence that [redacted] gave about t he
American litigation.
ANSWER:
Yes.
|
860 | 8 | QUESTION:
I think you too went to the States for the purposes of
that litigation.
ANSWER:
Yes.
|
861 | 8 | QUESTION:
And you have a recollection of the questions that y ou
were asked.
ANSWER:
Yes. Well, first and foremost, when I went in to g ive
my evidence, I was told not to look like a woman.
3
Does that make sense? As in sexual, as in as a woman ,
as in, you know, that you would prefer to dress, th at
you would -- does that make sense?
|
862 | 8 | QUESTION:
Yes.
ANSWER:
So I had to change my dress. That was the very fir st
thing, because I had a shift dress on, and at the t ime
I was very, very slim, so I guess -- you know. Tha t
was number 1.
So you go into a room and I think there were five
attorneys there, and they were so aggressive you wo uld
not believe. So I am here as -- I don't know how o ld
I was at the time. So it would be 15 -- I was
probably early 30s. So I was a little bit more sav vy
by then, a little bit more. So I went into a room
with these five solicitors and basically you were m ade
to feel like a prostitute, a drug user, and when th ey
talked about my terminations, they basically just m ade
me feel the way I feel in this room today, you know .
So I guess that kind of sticks with you, and we
went through all that, for what? Another
disappointment, another cast-off, you know. You ke ep
going through this stuff to be cast aside again.
Do you know how hard it is to walk into that room
and sit in front of five people who are
cross-examining you? It is horrendous, absolutely 4
horrendous. Not only did they cross-examine you, t hey
were so aggressive that I thought to myself, "Who a m
I doing this for? Because this is not for me", you
know. But I just think, "I am just going to do it" .
|
863 | 8 | QUESTION:
Can I ask you a little bit about the MacFarlane Tru st.
One of the observations you've made in your stateme nt
about the recent dissolution of the MacFarlane Trus t
was the transfer of its funds to the Terrence Higgi ns
Trust.
ANSWER:
Yes.
|
864 | 8 | QUESTION:
And the point you have made in your statement was t hat
that was undertaken with no consultation with the
community.
ANSWER:
No. So I didn't find out about the THT until it wa s
all done. I don't think any of us found out about the
THT until it was all done. I don't have a problem
with THT, but THT, really they are about a homosexu al
environment, you know, not -- and everybody needs
support in a different way. We all need support in
a different way.
So your first aspect of that is: why would
somebody do that, because what is our association w ith
that, you know? It is difficult enough that we are in
MFT when you have got male, female -- you know, you
have already got a division of men, you have differ ent 5
aspects of it, you have already got a bit of a melt ing
pot, and then you have introduced another bit of
a melting pot. So I don't know why they did that, you
know. It was another way of the MFT saying, "You m ean
nothing. We are not going to consult you. We are
just going to do whatever it is we are going to do" .
The complete arrogance of these people is beyond
reproach.
So I think all of us -- I say all of us -- a few
of us who obviously knew about that contacted THT. So
you have got a massive organisation here, THT, whic h
gets a lot of publicity, which has got processes
an procedures in place that have been in place for
years and years and years, and they have got this
little -- it is not even a lot of money, you know.
They have got this tiny little fund.
So we get somebody allocated to us initially that
we talk to. You know, obviously people had real
worries, you know. There were loans that they didn 't
know what was happening to these loans. People had
been held back for 30-odd years, not being able to
move, not being able to live their lives because of
a decision they made when they were on the floor. So
this has been transferred to somebody else, who has no
face, that's part of an organisation that is in pla ce 6
for years. It is like going into a door and saying ,
you know, "We are here".
So we get allocated this guy and have some
communication with him and you go through the whole
rigmarole of what your problems are. All of a sudd en,
this guy disappears, not to be heard of again. You
contact THT and they say, you know, "We are just
recruiting for somebody". So they went through
a process of recruiting somebody and now they have
recruited somebody. So you have a communication wit h
this recruited person, who initially was lovely, yo u
know. I have to say he helped me set up my
counselling, you know, he started the ball rolling, he
helped me with things. They helped with the loans.
They have dispensed with the loans, which is fabulo us.
But where is this person today? Nowhere to be seen .
He was on Twitter supporting us. He is not on Twit ter
anymore. Disappeared.
So yet again, it is not even a lot, but it is our
identity for what was given to us, for what has
happened to us, has just been dumped somewhere that we
have no communication with, that doesn't support us ,
that doesn't speak for us. Yet another trust that has
got money that has been given to support us that is n't
doing anything else -- anything but.
7
So we have had the MFT, who shit on us for years.
We get put in another support system, with has got its
own problems, a different community of people. Ple ase
don't -- I am not taking anything away from anybody .
Every single one of us is a different case. Every
single one of us is an individual. Every single on e
of us has had a different experience. You cannot l ump
this into a big thing, because all it becomes is
a melting pot of aggression.
So that's purposeful. Of course that's
purposeful, because they want us to fight. They wa nt
us to say "I am better than you. What's happened t o
me is more important than you". It's not. Everyth ing
has happened to everybody and that individual case
needs to be looked at and, you know, addressed. Th at
is my real thing. I hope that happens.
So you've got 35 years of nobody speaking to you,
nowhere you can go, no-one that supports you, and y ou
are still trying to get your voice heard.
|
865 | 8 | QUESTION:
You have had numerous dealings with the MacFarlane
Trust over the years.
ANSWER:
Yes.
|
866 | 8 | QUESTION:
And because you were infected as a result of your
relationship with your husband --
ANSWER:
Yes. 8
|
867 | 8 | QUESTION:
-- you are what the MacFarlane Trust termed
"an infected intimate".
ANSWER:
Yes.
|
868 | 8 | QUESTION:
That's a phrase which you have described in
communications to the MacFarlane Trust as insulting
and dated, and you asked over a number of years for
that term to be abandoned.
ANSWER:
Yes. Since 2005.
|
869 | 8 | QUESTION:
You believe that women infected in the way that you
were infected have been overlooked or disadvantaged by
the trusts and schemes.
ANSWER:
Yes. I mean, I don't -- again, you know, I am not
putting us above anybody. I just want us to be loo ked
at as an equal thing, to be recognised of who we we re.
We looked after our husbands. Some people looked
after their husbands and they didn't become infecte d,
you know, and they lost their husbands, and they ar e
recognised. We supported our husbands. Some of us
lost our husbands, some of us didn't, but we became
infected. That's not recognised.
I have had somebody say within my vicinity that
people like us are only infected because our husban ds
didn't love us. Now, I can't get my head round tha t,
but it comes in my psyche all the time and it makes me
so angry, but that is people's perception, and it's 9
not, because you had to be there. They did love us
and we loved them, and you had to be there to
understand that protection, and unless you were, do n't
say anything.
|
870 | 8 | QUESTION:
You've sought to raise your concerns about the
differential treatment of this category the MFT ter med
"infected intimates" over the years with the
MacFarlane Trust, Department of Health, EIBSS and
others.
ANSWER:
Yes. Haemophilia Society. The term doesn't -- the y
have taken some of the deed -- I mean, I don't even
know what this deed was or what was in it or what w e
signed -- I have no idea. They have taken some par ts
of this deed to EIBSS and they have taken away some
parts of this deed. So they pick and choose what t hey
want. So we have an antiquated system on EIBSS of
ridiculous stages of payment depending on whether y ou
were a child, depending on whether you were married ,
depending on whether you had children. Ridiculous,
you know. That should be gone. It should be sorte d
out, rectified, and everything with the other -- as
far as hepatitis stage 2 is concerned, you get 20,0 00
at stage 1, you get 50,000 at stage 2. You are not
judged on whether you have children or no children, or
like us, you are an infected intimate, where you ar e 0
down here. You are even below.
So "infected intimate" is not known in the
hepatitis world. It doesn't exist. So if somebody
had hepatitis through their partner, they are treat ed
as a registrant the same as everybody else, but we are
not.
|
871 | 8 | QUESTION:
It is the fact that this category was treated under
the MacFarlane scheme differently, receiving less
money than those directly affected, and then the
differential under EIBSS between the categories of
those infected --
ANSWER:
That's correct.
|
872 | 8 | QUESTION:
-- through one route or falling into different
categories compared to those who can just go throug h
the stage 1 and stage 2 process --
ANSWER:
Yes, that's correct.
|
873 | 8 | QUESTION:
-- have been the concerns you raised.
ANSWER:
Yes, and that's not just for me. That is for lads who
were young at the time who were given different to
somebody who was married with children. Well, thos e
lads now, some of them are married with children. So
why is that difference still there?
So they have taken that antiquated bit of the deed
and they have applied it in EIBSS, but as far as HI V
is concerned, you can't get any grant for health
1
purposes, you can't get any funeral plan, because
apparently nobody is dying of AIDS anymore. Well,
they might not be dying of AIDS anymore, but they a re
probably dying of everything else that they have go t
over the last 30 years.
So wake up and smell the roses. We might not be
dying, but you must accept that every time somethin g
is brought in, we are -- it is like we are thrown
away. It is like what we have lived through, what we
have had to put up with, is just dispelled, because ,
"Well, you had AIDS, but you haven't got AIDS
anymore". No, I might not have AIDS and there migh t
be advancements in drugs, but you have seen the
letter. Those drugs could come with an added issue of
my health, and an added issue on my day-to-day life
and way I want to live my life. Let's recognise th is,
please.
|
874 | 8 | QUESTION:
Those, as I understand it, are the principal issues
that you as part of I think the campaign organisati on
Positive Women, have sought to raise over the years
with these various organisations?
ANSWER:
Yes. Well, myself and another lady, we are very
different in our personalities. We are very differ ent
in who we are. But we have a common goal in the fa ct
that it is not about gender. It is about recogniti on 2
of who we are, you know. I am not a women's liber.
I am not into all that stuff. But, you know, at th e
end of the day, we should be recognised for who we are
and we shouldn't be fighting, and these lads, you
know, some of these lads have had no life. They ha ve
had no girlfriends, you know. And I just think thi s
recognition just isn't there, because of the fact o f
HIV. Nobody wants to talk about HIV. I am sorry.
Even the Haemophilia Society still don't want to ta lk
about HIV. You know, I have spoken to Liz and I ha ve
spoken to Jeff, both of whom say the right words, y ou
know, but they don't do anything. Nothing changes.
And we are here again because nobody wants to talk
about HIV, because it's been talked about. We have
been sorted. We have had loads of money over the
years. Have we?
You know, there's this belief about who we are.
You know, there's belief about who I am. Do you kn ow,
I am passionate about what we have been through. I a m
not discompassionate to other people who have been
through other things. I do recognise that. I just
want people to recognise what we have been through
too. That's all.
|
875 | 8 | QUESTION:
Those are the questions I have for you. Before I a sk
you if you have anything you want to add, I am just 3
going to ask Mr Snowden if there's any further
questions he has. No.
Is there anything further you want to say?
ANSWER:
I just want to say to everyone in this room, I know we
have all been infected, I know we have all had crap py
lives. You know, I think that I have been -- I hav e
probably been guilty of lashing out and, you know,
appearing to be discompassionate, but that's becaus e
that's what has been shown to me, you know. You ac t
as you find. From today, you know, enough, because my
PTSD counselling is bringing my compassion forward.
That's where I want to be. I don't want to be ther e
anymore. So I am just going to be there. Thanks f or
listening, everyone.
|
876 | 9 | QUESTION:
Matt, you suffer from a condition known as
haemophilia B; is that right?
ANSWER:
Correct, yes.
|
877 | 9 | QUESTION:
Can you tell us what that is?
ANSWER:
It's a bleeding disorder where my blood doesn't c lot
properly.
|
878 | 9 | QUESTION:
It involves a deficiency of a different factor pr oduct
from haemophilia ANSWER:
Your deficiency is Factor IX?
|
879 | 9 | QUESTION:
It is a condition, I think, that used to be known as
Christmas disease?
ANSWER:
Yes, correct.
|
880 | 9 | QUESTION:
And it's, in your case, it's severe?
ANSWER:
Correct, yes.
|
881 | 9 | QUESTION:
That means you have a very tiny percentage, indee d of
the clotting Factor IX in your blood?
ANSWER:
Correct.
|
882 | 9 | QUESTION:
Now when approximately was the haemophilia B
diagnosed?
ANSWER:
When I was around a year old. I fell out the cot , put
my two teeth through my front lip.
|
883 | 9 | QUESTION:
Your parents took you to hospital?
ANSWER:
Yes.
|
884 | 9 | QUESTION:
That's went it was diagnosed?
ANSWER:
After about three or four days of testing, but ye ah.
|
885 | 9 | QUESTION:
As I understand it there was no previous family
history of haemophilia?
ANSWER:
No, no.
|
886 | 9 | QUESTION:
You were referred, and you were a very young chil d at
this time, but you were referred to the Oxford
Haemophilia Centre under the care of Dr Rizza and
Dr Matthews?
ANSWER:
Correct, yes.
|
887 | 9 | QUESTION:
For many years your parents regularly took you to the
Oxford Haemophilia Centre for check ups and for
treatment?
ANSWER:
It was pretty much on a weekly basis for the firs t
three or four years of my life and then ongoing
check-ups every three to six months.
|
888 | 9 | QUESTION:
Now, you started to be treated with a factor prod uct
and, as I understand it from your statement, you'd be
treated when you had a bleed but also there came
a point in time fairly quickly when you were given
treatment prophylactically on a regular basis?
ANSWER:
Correct.
|
889 | 9 | QUESTION:
What is your understanding from your records or f rom
your conversations with your Mum and Dad about how
that came about?
ANSWER:
Discussion with Dr Rizza, Dr Matthews to prevent
bleeding to have prophylaxis to stop you from becom ing
poorly in later life or have joint issues.
|
890 | 9 | QUESTION:
We can see from the handful of records that you h ave
been able to obtain from the Oxford Haemophilia
Centre, if we have up on screen please, Paul, 10570 03.
This is a letter from August 1986, so a little
while further on. If we pick it up in the first
paragraph, it refers to you going on holiday to Fra nce
with your family:
"He is on home treatment with NHS Factor IX
concentrate given prophylactically in a dose of
approximately 600 units once a week."
My understanding from your statement, Matt is
that when it started it was about 20 units a week b ut
obviously at some point it seems to have increased?
ANSWER:
Yes, it did increase, yes.
|
891 | 9 | QUESTION:
That treatment was often given to you at home. W as it
administered by your parents?
ANSWER:
Yes, my Mum used to do it. My Dad was awful. He used
to miss the vein.
|
892 | 9 | QUESTION:
What is your understanding based upon the
conversations you have had with your Mum and Dad ab out
this I know many times over the years, what is your
understanding of what your parents were told of the
Oxford Haemophilia Centre when they were asked to g ive
their consent to you receiving these factors
treatments?
ANSWER:
My parents made it clear to me from a very young age
that they were told that, obviously, with any
medication there's always a risk but they were told
that this product was ground-breaking, it was clean
and it was as good as good can be.
You have this to prevent having issues in later
life such as arthritis and what not, but they were
told categorically, "As far as we're concerned, the re
is no risk".
|
893 | 9 | QUESTION:
There was some discussion at some point early on about
something to do with the risk of hepatitis but they
were given a particular assurance by Dr Rizza about
the nature of that risk and how severe it would be.
Can you recall from what your parents had told
you what was said to them?
ANSWER:
This was about when I was eight or nine there was
a risk of non-A non-B but it was just it was nothin g
to worry about, it was nothing more than a cold,
pretty much like hepatitis A, but nothing to worry
about. It's just like a bad cold. You'll get over it
and carry on.
|
894 | 9 | QUESTION:
Now, you don't know, obviously you were very youn g at
the time, exactly what products or what time period
led to you being infected?
ANSWER:
No.
|
895 | 9 | QUESTION:
But if we just look at the records. Can we have
1057004, please, Paul.
These are records that you've obtained from the
Oxford Haemophilia Centre; is that right?
ANSWER:
Correct.
|
896 | 9 | QUESTION:
We can see here time periods from 1981 and we don 't
need to look any further than this period, I think,
that we've got on the screen now, 1981 through to
1983. We can see in the box type of material, you
were being given something called 9D and then I won 't
ask you to look at all the detail of it, Matt, but
a point in time comes in about 1986 you start to be
given something called 9A and then later on again t he
product name changes?
ANSWER:
Yes, correct.
|
897 | 9 | QUESTION:
You have said in your statement that you think yo u
were probably exposed to contaminated concentrates at
some point between 1981 and 1984. What's the basis
for you thinking that that's the likely time-frame in
which you were exposed?
ANSWER:
Because the treatment improved from 1985/1986 but I'm
not -- I don't know, I don't know. It can't be pro ved
either way the exact date but I believe because of the
heat treatment that came out in '86 that it was
probably before that, so '84/85.
|
898 | 9 | QUESTION:
You have also set out very clearly in your statem ent
your view that you may have been what's been referr ed
to in some material as a PUP, a previously untreate d
patient?
ANSWER:
Yes.
|
899 | 9 | QUESTION:
What's the basis for that belief, Matt?
ANSWER:
I was very, very young. If my parents were told the
risk then they wouldn't have given me the factor
that's caused so much damage, that there was no nee d
for me to have factor. My parents weren't told abo ut
the risks of it but, yeah, I've seen records which
show that various people in the profession knew the
risk from 1979. They knew the risks were there, th ey
were live, but I was still given this product.
My parents would never have given me if they
knew the risks involved and my parents weren't told
that I had it until many years later, so yeah.
|
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