pnadel/npi_all_transcripts · Datasets at Hugging Face

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45,300	315	QUESTION: Can you remember -- ANSWER: We had to contact parents as well , of course, and tell them about it.
45,301	315	QUESTION: Well, I'm going to come on to the question of contact, Mr Macpherson, in a few minutes . Can you remember -- I'm moving on now from the mid-seventies to the early 1980s, '82, '83, '84. Can you remember how you first became aware of AIDS and the possibility that AIDS could be transmitted through the use of blood products to haemophiliacs . ANSWER: Do you mean who told me?
45,302	315	QUESTION: Yes . ANSWER: Well, it would be Dr Aronstam.
45,303	315	QUESTION: And have you got any -- I know it's a long time ago, Mr Macpherson, but have you got any recollection of what must have been very shocking information , of him telling you about that, and what he said ? ANSWER: Well, of course, we had to discuss it and discuss what we were going to do about it, not just with the boys involved but with the whole school , because it affected the whole school , and we had numerous 27 discussions at governors meetings about it as well. I mean , it was -- it was a pretty massive shock to find that you had this in the school, among a group of pupils. And it was something that really none of us had much idea about. We didn't know about it. I mean , AIDS was something you thought was in Central Africa, and then you heard that the United States was troubled by it. We never expected to have it in our -- under our roof.
45,304	315	QUESTION: So it was , you think , Dr Aronstam who would have first brought it to your attention ? ANSWER: Well , it had to be. I mean , who else could have done it ?
45,305	315	QUESTION: I'll look later with you at some records of governors' meetings from 1985 onwards at which how the school should deal with this is discussed. Again , I know these are a number of years ago, but do you have any sense of how long before that, before '85 , when the governing body started to talk about it, Dr Aronstam alerted you to the situation ? ANSWER: Oh, it -- we would immediately start working on it. There would be no time delay there. I mean , this was too serious. Our policy was never to sweep things under the carpet. We would start working on what to do straight away. There was no question of delay. 28 I mean, it was really quite worrying. This was a very worrying thing. I mean , a lot of staff were terrified that they were going to get it, and of course you had a lot of boy-girl relationships normally you have in any co-ed school . Fathers of daughters at the school were coming to see me. I mean, it was a massive problem .
45,306	315	QUESTION: So if, for example , we see it being discussed by the governing body really I think properly for the first time in 1985, is the right inference to draw from that that you've been alerted to the problem only relatively shortly before that? ANSWER: Yes , I think so .
45,307	315	QUESTION: And so we know , for example, from individual medical records of pupils, and I understand you wouldn't have seen those records, but we know that Dr Aronstam was looking for what he called the " stigmata " of AIDS in pupils, and was carrying out what he called " AIDS-relate d investigations and tests " , in the first half of 1983. Do you recall him telling you about that ? ANSWER: No , I -- I mean , I think if he'd told me that this was something -- that this was something to -- that he was worried about, we would have taken action straight away. We would have started doing something about it. 24 June 2021 9 I'm pretty sure that we didn't hang around when we heard about it. So are you saying that he knew about it for a while and kept quiet about it?
45,308	315	QUESTION: Well, that's one of the matters the Inquiry will have to consider. ANSWER: I can't help you with that .
45,309	315	QUESTION: Can I then just come to the general topic of parental involvement with the -- ANSWER: Of the what?
45,310	315	QUESTION: Parental involvement. ANSWER: Yes.
45,311	315	QUESTION: The involvement of parents with the school . ANSWER: Yes , yes .
45,312	315	QUESTION: I am going to ask you generally and then ask you more specifically about the families of the boys with haemophilia. What, as far as you can recall generally, was the parental involvement on a termly or annual basis with the school? What kind of communication would there be between the school and parents ? ANSWER: Well, I would say virtually the same as any other board ing school , but probably a bit closer in terms of the boarding houses. Parents used to come and talk to the housemasters and the care staff pretty regularly. And I know that the housemasters had a pretty close 30 relationship with a lot of the parents.
45,313	315	QUESTION: We've seen some examples of there being school reports, unsurprisingly, sent home in relation to the pupils, which would deal with the various different academic subjects, and we've seen examples, then, of there being for the haemophilia boys, a small medical report, so and so has had bleeds, had some prophylactic treatment, has had a good term, along those lines , and perhaps a physiotherapy report. Did you have any involvement with the putting together of the medical or physiotherapy reports that went to the pupils ? ANSWER: No .
45,314	315	QUESTION: And would you expect to have seen those reports ? ANSWER: I expect I would see them if I wanted to. If it was a report going out to the parents. But I mean, I didn't have time to read all things like that, unless there was some reason for me to read it .
45,315	315	QUESTION: What was your expectation of how -- of the kind of information that would be given to parents about the treatment of their children, the medical treatment of their children? If there was a medical issue , a medical concern, a requirement for ongoing treatment, would you expect the parents to be told about that? 31 ANSWER: Absolutely, yes.
45,316	315	QUESTION: In relation to the pupils who were not under the care of the Haemophilia Centre, who would be responsible for telling parents about their child's treatment? Was it you or Dr Tomlinson or -- ANSWER: No, it wouldn't be me. I think Pat Tomlinson was pretty good in this respect. She would ring up the parents or arrange to see them , if it was anything serious. And -- but if it was something minor, I mean if -- I think in general, if a pupil went into sick bay with a bad cold or something like that, the nurse would ring the parents and just tell them what was happening so they knew what was happening. I would have said they were kept in touch. But I don't know about the haemophilia side of it, really.
45,317	315	QUESTION: So in relation to the Haemophilia Centre, would it have been the responsibility of Dr Aronstam or the staff at the Centre to keep parents informed about their son's health ? ANSWER: Oh yes , yes .
45,318	315	QUESTION: And as far as you understood, did you think that was happening: that parents were being kept up to date? ANSWER: I don't remember anyone ever complaining, at any time, about it.
45,319	315	QUESTION: The evidence the Inquiry has both heard and read shows 32 very little contact , on what we've seen so far, between the Haemophilia Centre and parents. Does that surprise you ? ANSWER: That surprises me, yes .
45,320	315	QUESTION: In terms of consent to treatment , I'll ask you just to look at a couple of documents, I think, and then I will ask you some questions about it. So I'm going to ask you first of all generally . There's a form at -- it'll come up on the screen, Mr Macpherson. TREL0000165_053. This is a document from 1976, it's addressed to you as headmaster. And then it says: "As the Parent ... of [and we've redacted the name of the pupil, this happens to be a pupil with haemophilia] currently a pupil at Lord Mayor Treloar College : "1. I hereby authorise the School Medical Officer [it would have been the Dr McHardy, Dr Tomlinson role as I understand it ], whenever he deems it appropriate , to discuss with one or more Governors and/or the Headmaster or, in the absence of the Headmaster his deputy or my child's Housemaster information concerning the health of the said pupil ... " 24 June 2021 3 Then it says: " 2. And in the event of an illness to the said pupil I hereby authorise any one Governor or the Headmaster or in the absence of the Headmaster his deputy or my child's Housemaster acting under the advice of the School Medical Officer to sanction such action as the School Medical Officer deems necessary and appropriate in the circumstances including the authorisation of the use of anaesthetics and/or a major surgical operation in the event of an emergency. I give this authority unconditionally and it is understood that should either the use of anaesthetics or major surgery be deemed expedient every reasonable endeavour will be made to obtain my permission before proceeding ; and "3. I hereby authorise one or more of the Governors or the Headmaster or my child's Housemaster or the School Medical Officer to sanction vaccination, re - vaccination, immunisation or inoculation of the pupil when deemed appropriate by the School Medical Officer." As far as you can recall, was this document or this kind of document completed for all children? ANSWER: Sorry, say that again?
45,321	315	QUESTION: Was this document or this type of document completed 34 in relation to all children in the seventies, as far as you can recall? ANSWER: I think so, yes.
45,322	315	QUESTION: And this seems , in part , to be designed to allow the school legally to treat a child in an emergency . ANSWER: Yeah , I mean , at previous schools I'd been at, you've got something similar to this. It's pretty well essential, because if a child has an accident or is seriously ill, requiring urgent treatment, you're not going to hang around while you try to contact the parents, are you? They wouldn't want you to. So I think every -- I remember things like this happening when I was a housemaster in a previous school. I had to sign things. And that's pretty well the norm, I would say .
45,323	315	QUESTION: So we can see this document -- as you say , it caters for you being able to give or the school being able to arrange treatment in an emergency ? ANSWER: Yes .
45,324	315	QUESTION: It's permission in relation to vaccination and inoculation programmes, and it allows there to be discussions about the child's health between members of staff. In terms of the ongoing treatment of pupils with haemophilia , who, un like perhaps some at the school , 35 would have required or would have been likely to have received treatment on an ongoing basis, were there any other forms or documents or discussions about parents giving consent that you were aware of? Or would that be a matter for the Haemophilia Centre to sort out ? ANSWER: Well, that would be a matter for the Haemophilia Centre, yes .
45,325	315	QUESTION: So , again, I'm going to just ask you about a sort of a hypothetical example in relation to the treatment of a pupil with haemophilia. If Dr Aronstam or one of the other clinicians at the Haemophilia Centre was proposing, for example , to give the child a range of different types of factor concentrates, perhaps different from what they'd had previously or in greater volume from what they'd had previously, would you expect Dr Aronstam to have discussed that with the parents? ANSWER: To discuss it with the parents? Um ... I don't know. That's a medical matter, really. I think you would have to talk to a doctor about that one.
45,326	315	QUESTION: So would this be right to understand, then: you'd have regarded that as an issue to be resolved as between the Centre and the parent? ANSWER: That's a medical matter. He wouldn't want me interfering in medical matters and I would not want 36 him interfering in matters regarding discipline. I mean , the two -- we each had our own areas to look after .
45,327	315	QUESTION: Bearing in mind that you and the school were effectively in loco parentis for children whilst they were there during term time, did it ever occur to you to check with Dr Aronstam or with other staff at the Centre that they were keeping parents fully informed of what was happening? ANSWER: I couldn't tell you. I can't remember what happened in that respect. I find it -- if I'd ever had any parent say to me that they didn't know what was going on, or they weren't happy about something, I would certainly have investigated it. I do not remember any incident where that ever happened. Not in the whole time I was there. I never -- I don't remember that ever happening . And I think the -- I feel that if they had a genuine concern, I feel parents would have said -- either to me or to a housemaster or to the nurse, sister, or talking to a physio -- because the parents did talk to them -- I think they would have said.
45,328	315	QUESTION: And when you say the parents did talk to them, how often, typically, would parents physically attend the school? Was there an occasion each term at which 24 June 2021 7 parents were invited to come? ANSWER: Well, they would come -- they would come on occasions to collect their pupils and so on, but I think there was quite a lot of telephoning went on between the nurses and the parents to keep them informed. But I couldn't really answer that one.
45,329	315	QUESTION: Well , do you have a recollection of how common it was? ANSWER: Well, it wasn't uncommon. I mean , if they needed something done , like this, Dr Wassef would come and , as far as I can remember, he would bring the form in and say , "Look, you know " , and explain what was going on, and say, "Could you -- we need a signature ". A nd I was quite happy to sign it because I trusted him .
45,330	315	QUESTION: And again , I'm not asking you about any individual case or expecting you to remember individual cases , Mr Macpherson, but would you -- if you're signing this kind of form, would you assume that there had been an attempt to contact the parents first, and that they were only coming to you because there was -- they'd been unable to get hold of a parent, or were you the first line of person to sign, and they didn't go to the parent? ANSWER: I'm not sure I know the answer to that .
45,331	315	QUESTION: Do you think you would have asked if they'd contacted the parents if there was going to be some form of 39 either local or general anaesthetic ? ANSWER: I don't remember .
45,332	315	QUESTION: Do you ever recall there being any disagreement or difference of approach between the way in which the Haemophilia Centre cared for and interacted with pupils, parents, and the school medical officer and the general nursing staff ? ANSWER: No .
45,333	315	QUESTION: You've told us I think Dr Tomlinson didn't get involved in the treatment of haemophilia. She might, I think, have become involved if she was treating a boy with haemophilia for some other general medical problem; is that right ? ANSWER: Yes .
45,334	315	QUESTION: Were there ever, as far as you can recall, discussions across all the medical staff about the best way to treat any of the pupils with haemophilia? ANSWER: Sorry, are you saying, was Dr Tomlinson ever involved with the treatment of haemophilia? Or discussing treatment of haemophilia?
45,335	315	QUESTION: Yes , was she ever involved , as far as you know, in discussions with the Haemophilia Centre staff about treatment? ANSWER: Well , I mean , she must have been. She would go, every time she was in the -- came to the college, she would 40 be -- the Haemophilia Centre was really in the sick bay, in the health centre, and so -- and it was the same sister who was dealing with both departments. So she couldn't -- I mean , she couldn't have avoided doing that, could she? I don't think -- I mean , that's -- that's -- just had to happen.
45,336	315	QUESTION: Now , there came a point in time when pupils at the school were tested for what we now call HIV, but was then referred to as HTLV-III , and a number of the pupils had positive test results, in other words they'd been infected with HTLV-III, the virus that was known to lead to AIDS. Can you recall what was said to you by Dr Aronstam about that? So not just now -- not the general risk of AIDS, but the actual knowledge that boys at the school had been infected? ANSWER: Well, he told me. I'm not sure what you mean by this.
45,337	315	QUESTION: Just trying to understand what you can recall about any conversations with Dr Aronstam, how and when he told you that boys under your care, the school's care, had been infected with HIV ? ANSWER: Well, he came and told me that this was the situation. I'm not sure what you're getting at .
45,338	315	QUESTION: Well, I'm simply trying to probe what your recollection is, of what he told you. Again, I know 24 June 2021 1 it's a number of years ago. So he told you boys had tested positive, did he ? ANSWER: Yes .
45,339	315	QUESTION: I know in your statement you couldn't say how many boys had tested positive, but at the time would he have told you how many boys? ANSWER: I can't remember.
45,340	315	QUESTION: Do you recall knowing -- ANSWER: He probably would. I mean , I don't see any reason why he wouldn't. But I don't remember .
45,341	315	QUESTION: And do you recall whether you were told which boys had tested positive ? ANSWER: I don't recall but I probably was.
45,342	315	QUESTION: Did you have any involvement, or your staff have any involvement , in the process of telling boys their test results ? ANSWER: No.
45,343	315	QUESTION: So that was the responsibility -- ANSWER: Yes .
45,344	315	QUESTION: -- of Dr Aronstam and his staff ? ANSWER: Yes , yes .
45,345	315	QUESTION: We've heard some evidence that suggests that there were possibly quite significant delays in pupils being told their test results. ANSWER: H mm. 42
45,346	315	QUESTION: Did Dr Aronstam ever discuss with you that process or -- ANSWER: No .
45,347	315	QUESTION: -- why he might delay? ANSWER: No idea.
45,348	315	QUESTION: And then we've heard and read quite a lot of evidence which suggests that many parents were not told by the Haemophilia Centre of their son's infection with HTLV-III. Does that surprise you? ANSWER: That very much surprises me, yes .
45,349	315	QUESTION: What would your expectation have been of what should happen in terms of telling parents ? ANSWER: Well , I would have thought they'd be told immediately.
45,350	315	QUESTION: And did you ever, as far as you can recall, ask Dr Aronstam what -- ANSWER: I don't remember . But , I mean , I would -- I would just assume that he had. I know we had to -- we wrote -- I can remember writing a letter which went out to all the parents pretty soon after this happened, to tell them about the AIDS in the school and explain a bit about it. I think it was written by me and by Pat Tomlinson. It may have been signed by Pat Tomlinson, not by me. I can't remember now. But anyhow, I'm sure we did a general letter to inform them of what was going on , so that they would have 43 some idea of what was happening. And I can't remember what the Haemophilia Centre did individually.
45,351	315	QUESTION: And am I right in understanding that that general letter that you're talking about -- ANSWER: Yeah , that wouldn't mention any names .
45,352	315	QUESTION: Yes, it would have been a letter to all parents, not just parents of haemophilia boys ? ANSWER: No , that went out to every parent of --
45,353	315	QUESTION: Because it was now known -- ANSWER: Yes .
45,354	315	QUESTION: -- that some had been infected and you were trying to provide reassurance to all ? ANSWER: Yes .
45,355	315	QUESTION: What, if anything, can you recall about the support arrangements for boys who were being given this devastating diagnosis? Do you know what was done to provide support to them? ANSWER: Well, I don't know what was done in the medical side but I know that the care staff took this on and the nurses took it on. And I'm sure the physios as well . But I think the care staff would bear the biggest brunt because, you know, that's the sort of thing that , going to bed at night, the boy would be all upset and chat to his house mother about it. Most of our house parents were married women 44 from -- who lived in Alton. And most of them had children of their own. And they saw this as -- they were horrified and they were desperate to help in any way , to -- you know, to listen to them, to talk to them, whatever they could do. I would think that was their biggest -- that was the best place for them to get help. But help on the medical side , I couldn't tell you about.
45,356	315	QUESTION: Your statement -- ANSWER: But the emotional side was probably the worst side of all. And of course we had a lot of trouble with behaviour .
45,357	315	QUESTION: The statement makes reference to there being a counsellor and a consultant psychiatrist ? ANSWER: Yes , we had -- I think we had two counsellors , and we had a psychiatrist who came and visited once a week. And if there was anyone with serious problems, we would refer them to the psychiatrist . But there were -- very , very few went to the psychiatrist. The counsellor saw quite a number of pupils. I think Pat Tomlinson dealt with that. I didn't tend to -- they weren't referred to her by me. That was Pat Tomlinson. I mean , I would have referred one of I wanted to, but I wouldn't know the details. I mean , I'm not -- I was -- I wouldn't be able to know enough 24 June 2021 5 about that.
45,358	315	QUESTION: The arrangement in relation to the consultant psychiatrist, as I understand your statement and your evidence, that wasn't a specific arrangement made in response to the AIDS situation -- ANSWER: No , it wasn't. No. And I don't remember -- I don't remember it being -- no, it wasn't, no . No.
45,359	315	QUESTION: And in terms of the counsellors , again, there were not specific counsellors brought in to counsel the boys -- (overspeaking) -- ANSWER: No , we had counsellors for -- I mean , quite a lot of our pupils had -- were very upset about their condition and so on. And so they got help, professional help, through them. But this was -- you know, this was there, it was already there.
45,360	315	QUESTION: The Inquiry has a statement from one of the housemasters, Mr Scott. We haven't troubled you with it . But he suggests that there was a lack of -- when this happened , when it arose and it was learnt that pupils at the school had been infected with HIV, there was a lack of training to enable the staff to offer psychological support to these pupils. Would you accept that? ANSWER: Well, I -- I mean , how do you train someone to give that sort of help? 46
45,361	315	QUESTION: Do you know whether anyone at the school, Dr Tomlinson, Dr Aronstam, yourself, any of your staff, contacted any external organisations asking for help as to how to assist the boys best? ANSWER: I don't think so, no.
45,362	315	QUESTION: So your recollection is that you learnt about it possibly over a number of meetings ? ANSWER: Oh, we -- yeah , I mean there were dozens of meetings, yes. I'm frozen, actually , in here. It's very cold. I'm losing my voice.
45,363	315	QUESTION: And is it right to understand that , as far as you can recall, you yourself didn't take steps to check that he'd done that because your expectation was -- ANSWER: No, it wasn't my job, was it?
45,364	315	QUESTION: Did you ask Dr Aronstam, as far as you can recall, how this had happened? How it had happened that -- ANSWER: Well, it was explained to me how it had happened. Do you mean the infect ed blood?
45,365	315	QUESTION: Yes . ANSWER: Yes .
45,366	315	QUESTION: And did you challenge him? Did you say, "Was this avoidable, Tony?" Or anything like that ? 50 ANSWER: No . I don't think so. Why would I?
45,367	315	QUESTION: None? ANSWER: No, not really. I didn't know anything about it, really. I just had confidence in the staff, which -- if you're telling me that my confidence was misplaced, then I'm very sorry. And I'm very sad. But at the time, I had utter confidence in this -- that the staff were being honest and doing their best here.
45,368	315	QUESTION: Can I then just look with you at a handful of documents which show some of the governors' meetings in 1985, 1986. We've got a number. I'm not going to go to all of them but I just wanted to ask for your clarification on a couple of matters. So if we go first of all to TREL0000363, please, Soumik. Do you have it? We don't have that . ANSWER: I can probably remember if you tell me what it's about .
45,369	315	QUESTION: I'm simply trying to understand what's being discussed here. And it refers to there being strict precautions to prevent accidental contact with infected blood , presumably from child to child through accidental contact. Do you know what those precautions were? ANSWER: No, I can't remember. I don't remember about this, really. I mean, I think -- I would guess we're talking here about making sure that the pupils realised they had to wash their hands and wash any blood and -- that sort of thing. I don't know.
45,370	315	QUESTION: And then the next is to identify a risk of : "(ii) through intimate sexual contact ..." And that's said that it: "... could be a particular problem at the College because of the presence of girls who know that they have a short expectancy of life , and may therefore be prepared to accept the risk. " Can you recall what, if any, steps were taken to try to reduce the risk of -- through sexual contact , of the infection being transmitted? 55 ANSWER: Well, I mean , this is -- it's a standard problem in any co-ed school, and I had had experience of exactly this in my previous job. It's just the normal -- what you would do normally to -- what you might do with your own daughter, if you had a daughter , to help her , to prevent her from getting pregnant.
45,371	315	QUESTION: Do you know what was done? For example , were all the pupils told of the risk of sexual transmission ? ANSWER: Oh yeah , of course. They all knew that, yes. Yes . But, I mean, this is something your -- the house staff are obviously going to be involved in talking to boys and girls about anyhow and , when you've got a boy-girl relationship in a boarding school, the staff will obviously talk to the boy and the girl and make sure they know what the risks are and make sure that -- try and make sure that they're not going to go and have sex. You can't entirely prevent it, but you do your best to prevent it, and you do your best to talk to them about it and make sure that they know what's going on. I mean , I would have -- I have certainly had housemasters come in and say, "Look what I've found in so and so's locker", some condoms. And, you know, we discussed what you're going to do about it.
45,372	315	QUESTION: And then -- 56 ANSWER: This isn't actually -- this is not really to do with haemophilia. You see, it -- but I mean it obviously becomes -- it becomes a very much more serious situation, more serious matter, because of the additional risk.
45,373	315	QUESTION: And then if we just read the next paragraph, it says: "In general discussion it was agreed that there must be no ostracism of haemophiliacs at the College, and that the Headmaster's policy of keeping everybody concerned as fully informed as possible was producing the required results, in eliminating unnecessary panic and alarm among staff, pupils and parents." Do you recall whether there were problems with ostracism of haemophiliac children? ANSWER: W hen this -- when this arose, when -- when we first heard about it, it caused a great deal of concern among staff and other senior pupils who were able to know about it, and parents, and certainly parents of -- fathers in particular -- of daughters at the school who had a boyfriend who was a haemophiliac. Yeah , it caused a lot of concern. And we actually anticipated that there would be girls withdrawn from the school, and I anticipated that maybe some staff would say, "I don't want to work here anymore ". But I'm glad to say I don't think -- 24 June 2021 7 I don't remember any member of staff leaving and I don't remember any girl actually being withdrawn , because I think we were as open as we could, and we said, you know , " This is the situation. If you want to leave, you've got to leave" . I don't think anyone did. But yes , it was -- of course it was. I mean, what do you expect? It was really worrying.
45,374	315	QUESTION: Then if we just look at the next set of -- or a next set of minutes , it may not be the next set . February 1986 . It's TREL0000365. Sir , we can see this is an extract from the " Minutes of a Meeting of the Governing Body ... 24 February 1986 " . If we go to the second page, there's a discussion about AIDS , but I just want to look at the last paragraph on that page. It says at paragraph ( d ): "During further discussion it was pointed out that the parents of pupils carrying the AIDS antibody are already aware of this fact ..." Now , do you know what the factual basis was for your belief that all the parents of infected boys were aware? ANSWER: Well, I'd been told that they'd been informed . 58
45,375	315	QUESTION: By Dr Aronstam ? ANSWER: I can't remember who it would be. It would presumably be him. It would either be him or Pat Tomlinson . But it would be more likely the Haemophilia Centre would do that, wouldn't it ? I certainly -- that was our understanding.
45,376	315	QUESTION: And then just one further document. It's a couple of years later, a year later. It's TREL0000092_131, please. This is a letter from you , Mr Macpherson , 16 July 1987 , to the Social Services department of -- looks like the London Borough of Croydon. And I'm not asking you anything about any -- the individual child to which this relates. But we'll see in the second paragraph, you say this: "In this College we have a large number of boys suffering from haemophilia and we work on the assumption that every one of them is a carrier of the AIDS virus. We take all the precautions for every haemophiliac based on this assumption. We do not know which of the haemophiliacs are AIDS virus carriers." That would tend to suggest that you yourself didn't know which children were infected. Do you think that's right? ANSWER: I think we worked on the assumption that all the 59 haemophiliacs were at risk here, and that it was easier to assume that it was possible that any one of them had the AIDS virus.
45,377	315	QUESTION: Yes , I understand that . It was more about the last sentence, which would suggest that , from the school's perspectiv e -- ANSWER: Well, I mean --
45,378	315	QUESTION: -- you didn't know ? ANSWER: Well, as far as I can remember, there were very few who didn't have it. It was quite rare. I only know of one haemophiliac who came to the school who actually never ever suffered in any way , and no one knows why he didn't get affected. That was quite rare. I mean , it just so happens sometimes that some people don't get something. He was lucky, I suppose. But I don't -- I mean , I think at the beginning we probably were told the names of them, but after a little while, it was pretty well everyone who had -- every one, every haemophiliac was infected, as far as I can remember. There were very, very few who didn't get infected , so you just assumed they all had it. I don't think we went into the -- it didn't really matter to us. We just assumed that they all had it, because I think most of them had.
45,379	315	QUESTION: Do you -- we can take that down, thank you. 60 Do you recall any occasions when the media came to the school gates because -- ANSWER: No , I -- yes , I read that somewhere. I find that hard to believe, because if we'd heard of that, we would have jolly well soon sent them packing. It may have happened once or twice, but I mean it never came to my attention. Certainly not. And I don't know what the basis is for that story.
45,380	315	QUESTION: And then, if we go to WITN5561003 , and we go to the second page. This is an extract from the school prospectus that you've exhibited to your statement. I think your statement tells us it's the 1989 prospectus. Yes , 1989 to 1990 prospectus . But I just want ed to look at what it says about healthcare and then just ask you a little about that. It says: "The aim of the medical staff at the College is to have an interdisciplinary team of doctors, nurses and therapists all working closely together to assess and treat each child's individual problems so as to achieve as much independence as possible . The medical team works closely with the parents , the teachers and care staff in the houses , and with the hospital consultants involved with each child. "The team is led by the College Medical Officer, Dr Pat Tomlinson ..." 24 June 2021 1 Then there's reference to some of the other staff. Then if we see the next paragraph it says: "When a child is ill, he or she will be admitted to the Medical Centre and looked after by the nursing staff under the direction of Dr Tomlinson. The parents will be informed and if the child needs hospital treatment this will , if possible , be at their home hospital where the child is already known." And then there's some further discussion then about arrangements during the holidays and so on. That's talking about the general medical centre and the work of Dr Tomlinson, but would you have had the same expectation of parental involvement for the Haemophilia Centre? ANSWER: Yes.
45,381	315	QUESTION: And although this is a 1989 to '90 prospectus, would that have been your expectation, really, throughout the whole period of time that you were headmaster ? ANSWER: Yes .
45,382	315	QUESTION: Thank you. Is it right to understand that , in terms of the Haemophilia Centre, perhaps because of its slightly unusual status with the doctors being NHS employees, you left it to the Haemophilia Centre to fulfil that expectation rather than yourself trying to oversee 62 their work ? ANSWER: Well, yes , but in fact even if they had been employed by us, it would have been the same situation. I mean , as far as Pat Tomlinson was concerned, I would never have dreamt of saying to her -- or interfering in anything she was doing . Never ever. Because I'm not a doctor.
45,383	315	QUESTION: And then I was going to ask you the rest of my questions after the break just about the football ban . I am hoping we might now have the document. TREL00000036_053. So this is a letter from Dr Painter -- you're absolutely right, was there for about a year -- to you. This is dated 17 May 1978. Again, it's about a particular child who was found playing football and I'm not asking you about the individual child. But if we could just look at the last paragraph of the letter, it says: "I am afraid it does make our task even more difficult when we find that boys are blatantly disregarding medical advice they are given and in consequence run an increased risk of requiring further transfusions , which, of course, come at great expense to the National Health Service. There is also a worry that our supplies of Factor VIII may not be quite as 63 easy to obtain as in the past and it is even more vital that we do not waste material on boys who cannot be bothered to follow the most basic advice." That might suggest that the question of expenditure and being able to get hold of treatment, products, did play a part at least in the doctors' minds in advocating the football ban. Do you have any recollection of that? ANSWER: Well , he's saying supplies may not be as easy to obtain as in the past. I mean, that's a question of supply and demand. That's something I don't know anything about and , you know -- I don't see anything wrong with this, to be quite honest. We should not be wasting money on -- if we can be sensible and good and husband what we've got . But I mean all he's saying here is that the boys have got to be sensible and they 've got to actually learn to look after themselves in a way that they don't get bleeds. This is obviously in their best interests. And if he's saying that we shouldn't waste -- we should try and not expend money on something that can be avoided, to a certain extent, it's fair enough. I don't think -- I think you're probably reading too much into this, actually , to be quite honest. I think he's -- who is this, Dr Painter? Yeah , I don't think 64 he was trying to ... I don't -- I think what you're implying is not quite right. I don't think that was what was behind it.
45,384	315	QUESTION: We can take that down, thank you. Did Dr Aronstam ever attend the meetings of the governing body to provide updates to them about the work of the Haemophilia Centre? ANSWER: I can't remember.
45,385	315	QUESTION: Do you recall whether the governing body ever sought to exercise any oversight over the work of the Haemophilia Centre? ANSWER: No , I don't think so. I mean , why would they? I don't think they would have any reason to, actually. I can't think of any reason why they would want to. The governors are there to govern. They're not there to run the school. That was my job.
45,386	315	QUESTION: Do you recall representatives of pharmaceutical companies ever attending the school site? ANSWER: No .
45,387	315	QUESTION: And the Inquiry has had some evidence that pharmaceutical companies would leave branded gifts for the pupils, teddy bears and kites ? ANSWER: Leaving what?
45,388	315	QUESTION: Branded gifts, gifts , for example , bearing the name of the pharmaceutical company ? 24 June 2021 5 ANSWER: What sort of gifts?
45,389	315	QUESTION: Kites, teddy bears and the like. Is that anything you had any knowledge of? I think your answer to that is no ? ANSWER: Sorry?
45,390	315	QUESTION: You s hook your head and the transcript can't pick up a shake of the head, so is your answer to that " no " ? ANSWER: Okay -- yes , but we had quite a strong parents committee , who met quite regularly. And they raised money for the school and they organised social things for parents . One of the things they organised was an annual ball, a ball, in the school hall, which had a big attendance , a lot of people came from Alton to it, as well as our own parents. And they had some absolutely incredible prizes there for sort of raffle prizes and I know they all came from gifts from somewhere. So it is possible that what you're talking about went there. But I don't remember anything else, anything directly to individual pupils or anything.
45,391	315	QUESTION: Then can I then ask you about research that was undertaken in relation to pupils with haemophilia. The Inquiry is aware from documents it's seen that there were a number of research projects undertaken involving , for example , Dr Rainsford and Dr Aronstam and Dr Kirk at various points in time. 66 What knowledge did you have of that area of activity? ANSWER: Not very much. Just chatting to them about it occasionally , about , "How are you getting on ?" That sort of thing. But I wouldn't get any details .
45,392	315	QUESTION: So is it right to understand that neither you, as headmaster, nor the governing body or the school as an institution , was asked for its permission or agreement for research to be undertaken? ANSWER: Well, we must have given permission, mustn't we, otherwise they couldn't have done it ?
45,393	315	QUESTION: But you've no recollection of any specifics? ANSWER: No recollection of what?
45,394	315	QUESTION: Of any specific pieces of research or any discussions about permission ? ANSWER: No . I don't remember -- I don't remember anything particularly there. I mean , as far as I can remember, these were -- these were thought to be very worthwhile. What they were doing was thought to be very worthwhile, and to be encouraged. That was our feeling.
45,395	315	QUESTION: Do you know what , if any , parental involvement or parental knowledge of the research there was ? ANSWER: I'm pretty sure the parents knew what was going on, but they probably didn't know much about the details.
45,396	315	QUESTION: When you say you're pretty sure they knew what was 67 going on, is that because your expectation is that the doctors would have told parents or did you yourself tell parents about research activities? ANSWER: I don't think I ever told the parents about it, because I didn't know what it was about. I didn't know what they were doing. I really can't -- I don't think I can answer that one.
45,397	315	QUESTION: Can I just take you back briefly to the hepatitis B or serum hepatitis outbreak that there was in the mid-1970s -- '74, '75. Do you recall being aware at the time that that outbreak was caused by treatment with factor concentrates? ANSWER: Sorry, can you say that again?
45,398	315	QUESTION: Of course. When there was the hepatitis outbreak in 1974 , ' 75 -- ANSWER: Was I aware of what?
45,399	315	QUESTION: Were you aware that the cause of the outbreak was the treatment with the factor concentrates? ANSWER: Yes.

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QUESTION: Can you remember -- ANSWER: We had to contact parents as well , of course, and tell them about it.

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QUESTION: Well, I'm going to come on to the question of contact, Mr Macpherson, in a few minutes . Can you remember -- I'm moving on now from the mid-seventies to the early 1980s, '82, '83, '84. Can you remember how you first became aware of AIDS and the possibility that AIDS could be transmitted through the use of blood products to haemophiliacs . ANSWER: Do you mean who told me?

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QUESTION: Yes . ANSWER: Well, it would be Dr Aronstam.

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QUESTION: And have you got any -- I know it's a long time ago, Mr Macpherson, but have you got any recollection of what must have been very shocking information , of him telling you about that, and what he said ? ANSWER: Well, of course, we had to discuss it and discuss what we were going to do about it, not just with the boys involved but with the whole school , because it affected the whole school , and we had numerous 27 discussions at governors meetings about it as well. I mean , it was -- it was a pretty massive shock to find that you had this in the school, among a group of pupils. And it was something that really none of us had much idea about. We didn't know about it. I mean , AIDS was something you thought was in Central Africa, and then you heard that the United States was troubled by it. We never expected to have it in our -- under our roof.

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QUESTION: So it was , you think , Dr Aronstam who would have first brought it to your attention ? ANSWER: Well , it had to be. I mean , who else could have done it ?

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QUESTION: I'll look later with you at some records of governors' meetings from 1985 onwards at which how the school should deal with this is discussed. Again , I know these are a number of years ago, but do you have any sense of how long before that, before '85 , when the governing body started to talk about it, Dr Aronstam alerted you to the situation ? ANSWER: Oh, it -- we would immediately start working on it. There would be no time delay there. I mean , this was too serious. Our policy was never to sweep things under the carpet. We would start working on what to do straight away. There was no question of delay. 28 I mean, it was really quite worrying. This was a very worrying thing. I mean , a lot of staff were terrified that they were going to get it, and of course you had a lot of boy-girl relationships normally you have in any co-ed school . Fathers of daughters at the school were coming to see me. I mean, it was a massive problem .

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QUESTION: So if, for example , we see it being discussed by the governing body really I think properly for the first time in 1985, is the right inference to draw from that that you've been alerted to the problem only relatively shortly before that? ANSWER: Yes , I think so .

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QUESTION: And so we know , for example, from individual medical records of pupils, and I understand you wouldn't have seen those records, but we know that Dr Aronstam was looking for what he called the " stigmata " of AIDS in pupils, and was carrying out what he called " AIDS-relate d investigations and tests " , in the first half of 1983. Do you recall him telling you about that ? ANSWER: No , I -- I mean , I think if he'd told me that this was something -- that this was something to -- that he was worried about, we would have taken action straight away. We would have started doing something about it. 24 June 2021 9 I'm pretty sure that we didn't hang around when we heard about it. So are you saying that he knew about it for a while and kept quiet about it?

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QUESTION: Well, that's one of the matters the Inquiry will have to consider. ANSWER: I can't help you with that .

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QUESTION: Can I then just come to the general topic of parental involvement with the -- ANSWER: Of the what?

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QUESTION: Parental involvement. ANSWER: Yes.

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QUESTION: The involvement of parents with the school . ANSWER: Yes , yes .

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QUESTION: I am going to ask you generally and then ask you more specifically about the families of the boys with haemophilia. What, as far as you can recall generally, was the parental involvement on a termly or annual basis with the school? What kind of communication would there be between the school and parents ? ANSWER: Well, I would say virtually the same as any other board ing school , but probably a bit closer in terms of the boarding houses. Parents used to come and talk to the housemasters and the care staff pretty regularly. And I know that the housemasters had a pretty close 30 relationship with a lot of the parents.

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QUESTION: We've seen some examples of there being school reports, unsurprisingly, sent home in relation to the pupils, which would deal with the various different academic subjects, and we've seen examples, then, of there being for the haemophilia boys, a small medical report, so and so has had bleeds, had some prophylactic treatment, has had a good term, along those lines , and perhaps a physiotherapy report. Did you have any involvement with the putting together of the medical or physiotherapy reports that went to the pupils ? ANSWER: No .

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QUESTION: And would you expect to have seen those reports ? ANSWER: I expect I would see them if I wanted to. If it was a report going out to the parents. But I mean, I didn't have time to read all things like that, unless there was some reason for me to read it .

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QUESTION: What was your expectation of how -- of the kind of information that would be given to parents about the treatment of their children, the medical treatment of their children? If there was a medical issue , a medical concern, a requirement for ongoing treatment, would you expect the parents to be told about that? 31 ANSWER: Absolutely, yes.

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QUESTION: In relation to the pupils who were not under the care of the Haemophilia Centre, who would be responsible for telling parents about their child's treatment? Was it you or Dr Tomlinson or -- ANSWER: No, it wouldn't be me. I think Pat Tomlinson was pretty good in this respect. She would ring up the parents or arrange to see them , if it was anything serious. And -- but if it was something minor, I mean if -- I think in general, if a pupil went into sick bay with a bad cold or something like that, the nurse would ring the parents and just tell them what was happening so they knew what was happening. I would have said they were kept in touch. But I don't know about the haemophilia side of it, really.

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QUESTION: So in relation to the Haemophilia Centre, would it have been the responsibility of Dr Aronstam or the staff at the Centre to keep parents informed about their son's health ? ANSWER: Oh yes , yes .

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QUESTION: And as far as you understood, did you think that was happening: that parents were being kept up to date? ANSWER: I don't remember anyone ever complaining, at any time, about it.

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QUESTION: The evidence the Inquiry has both heard and read shows 32 very little contact , on what we've seen so far, between the Haemophilia Centre and parents. Does that surprise you ? ANSWER: That surprises me, yes .

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QUESTION: In terms of consent to treatment , I'll ask you just to look at a couple of documents, I think, and then I will ask you some questions about it. So I'm going to ask you first of all generally . There's a form at -- it'll come up on the screen, Mr Macpherson. TREL0000165_053. This is a document from 1976, it's addressed to you as headmaster. And then it says: "As the Parent ... of [and we've redacted the name of the pupil, this happens to be a pupil with haemophilia] currently a pupil at Lord Mayor Treloar College : "1. I hereby authorise the School Medical Officer [it would have been the Dr McHardy, Dr Tomlinson role as I understand it ], whenever he deems it appropriate , to discuss with one or more Governors and/or the Headmaster or, in the absence of the Headmaster his deputy or my child's Housemaster information concerning the health of the said pupil ... " 24 June 2021 3 Then it says: " 2. And in the event of an illness to the said pupil I hereby authorise any one Governor or the Headmaster or in the absence of the Headmaster his deputy or my child's Housemaster acting under the advice of the School Medical Officer to sanction such action as the School Medical Officer deems necessary and appropriate in the circumstances including the authorisation of the use of anaesthetics and/or a major surgical operation in the event of an emergency. I give this authority unconditionally and it is understood that should either the use of anaesthetics or major surgery be deemed expedient every reasonable endeavour will be made to obtain my permission before proceeding ; and "3. I hereby authorise one or more of the Governors or the Headmaster or my child's Housemaster or the School Medical Officer to sanction vaccination, re - vaccination, immunisation or inoculation of the pupil when deemed appropriate by the School Medical Officer." As far as you can recall, was this document or this kind of document completed for all children? ANSWER: Sorry, say that again?

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QUESTION: Was this document or this type of document completed 34 in relation to all children in the seventies, as far as you can recall? ANSWER: I think so, yes.

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QUESTION: And this seems , in part , to be designed to allow the school legally to treat a child in an emergency . ANSWER: Yeah , I mean , at previous schools I'd been at, you've got something similar to this. It's pretty well essential, because if a child has an accident or is seriously ill, requiring urgent treatment, you're not going to hang around while you try to contact the parents, are you? They wouldn't want you to. So I think every -- I remember things like this happening when I was a housemaster in a previous school. I had to sign things. And that's pretty well the norm, I would say .

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QUESTION: So we can see this document -- as you say , it caters for you being able to give or the school being able to arrange treatment in an emergency ? ANSWER: Yes .

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QUESTION: It's permission in relation to vaccination and inoculation programmes, and it allows there to be discussions about the child's health between members of staff. In terms of the ongoing treatment of pupils with haemophilia , who, un like perhaps some at the school , 35 would have required or would have been likely to have received treatment on an ongoing basis, were there any other forms or documents or discussions about parents giving consent that you were aware of? Or would that be a matter for the Haemophilia Centre to sort out ? ANSWER: Well, that would be a matter for the Haemophilia Centre, yes .

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QUESTION: So , again, I'm going to just ask you about a sort of a hypothetical example in relation to the treatment of a pupil with haemophilia. If Dr Aronstam or one of the other clinicians at the Haemophilia Centre was proposing, for example , to give the child a range of different types of factor concentrates, perhaps different from what they'd had previously or in greater volume from what they'd had previously, would you expect Dr Aronstam to have discussed that with the parents? ANSWER: To discuss it with the parents? Um ... I don't know. That's a medical matter, really. I think you would have to talk to a doctor about that one.

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QUESTION: So would this be right to understand, then: you'd have regarded that as an issue to be resolved as between the Centre and the parent? ANSWER: That's a medical matter. He wouldn't want me interfering in medical matters and I would not want 36 him interfering in matters regarding discipline. I mean , the two -- we each had our own areas to look after .

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QUESTION: Bearing in mind that you and the school were effectively in loco parentis for children whilst they were there during term time, did it ever occur to you to check with Dr Aronstam or with other staff at the Centre that they were keeping parents fully informed of what was happening? ANSWER: I couldn't tell you. I can't remember what happened in that respect. I find it -- if I'd ever had any parent say to me that they didn't know what was going on, or they weren't happy about something, I would certainly have investigated it. I do not remember any incident where that ever happened. Not in the whole time I was there. I never -- I don't remember that ever happening . And I think the -- I feel that if they had a genuine concern, I feel parents would have said -- either to me or to a housemaster or to the nurse, sister, or talking to a physio -- because the parents did talk to them -- I think they would have said.

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QUESTION: And when you say the parents did talk to them, how often, typically, would parents physically attend the school? Was there an occasion each term at which 24 June 2021 7 parents were invited to come? ANSWER: Well, they would come -- they would come on occasions to collect their pupils and so on, but I think there was quite a lot of telephoning went on between the nurses and the parents to keep them informed. But I couldn't really answer that one.

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QUESTION: Well , do you have a recollection of how common it was? ANSWER: Well, it wasn't uncommon. I mean , if they needed something done , like this, Dr Wassef would come and , as far as I can remember, he would bring the form in and say , "Look, you know " , and explain what was going on, and say, "Could you -- we need a signature ". A nd I was quite happy to sign it because I trusted him .

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QUESTION: And again , I'm not asking you about any individual case or expecting you to remember individual cases , Mr Macpherson, but would you -- if you're signing this kind of form, would you assume that there had been an attempt to contact the parents first, and that they were only coming to you because there was -- they'd been unable to get hold of a parent, or were you the first line of person to sign, and they didn't go to the parent? ANSWER: I'm not sure I know the answer to that .

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QUESTION: Do you think you would have asked if they'd contacted the parents if there was going to be some form of 39 either local or general anaesthetic ? ANSWER: I don't remember .

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QUESTION: Do you ever recall there being any disagreement or difference of approach between the way in which the Haemophilia Centre cared for and interacted with pupils, parents, and the school medical officer and the general nursing staff ? ANSWER: No .

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QUESTION: You've told us I think Dr Tomlinson didn't get involved in the treatment of haemophilia. She might, I think, have become involved if she was treating a boy with haemophilia for some other general medical problem; is that right ? ANSWER: Yes .

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QUESTION: Were there ever, as far as you can recall, discussions across all the medical staff about the best way to treat any of the pupils with haemophilia? ANSWER: Sorry, are you saying, was Dr Tomlinson ever involved with the treatment of haemophilia? Or discussing treatment of haemophilia?

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QUESTION: Yes , was she ever involved , as far as you know, in discussions with the Haemophilia Centre staff about treatment? ANSWER: Well , I mean , she must have been. She would go, every time she was in the -- came to the college, she would 40 be -- the Haemophilia Centre was really in the sick bay, in the health centre, and so -- and it was the same sister who was dealing with both departments. So she couldn't -- I mean , she couldn't have avoided doing that, could she? I don't think -- I mean , that's -- that's -- just had to happen.

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QUESTION: Now , there came a point in time when pupils at the school were tested for what we now call HIV, but was then referred to as HTLV-III , and a number of the pupils had positive test results, in other words they'd been infected with HTLV-III, the virus that was known to lead to AIDS. Can you recall what was said to you by Dr Aronstam about that? So not just now -- not the general risk of AIDS, but the actual knowledge that boys at the school had been infected? ANSWER: Well, he told me. I'm not sure what you mean by this.

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QUESTION: Just trying to understand what you can recall about any conversations with Dr Aronstam, how and when he told you that boys under your care, the school's care, had been infected with HIV ? ANSWER: Well, he came and told me that this was the situation. I'm not sure what you're getting at .

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QUESTION: Well, I'm simply trying to probe what your recollection is, of what he told you. Again, I know 24 June 2021 1 it's a number of years ago. So he told you boys had tested positive, did he ? ANSWER: Yes .

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QUESTION: I know in your statement you couldn't say how many boys had tested positive, but at the time would he have told you how many boys? ANSWER: I can't remember.

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QUESTION: Do you recall knowing -- ANSWER: He probably would. I mean , I don't see any reason why he wouldn't. But I don't remember .

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QUESTION: And do you recall whether you were told which boys had tested positive ? ANSWER: I don't recall but I probably was.

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QUESTION: Did you have any involvement, or your staff have any involvement , in the process of telling boys their test results ? ANSWER: No.

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QUESTION: So that was the responsibility -- ANSWER: Yes .

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QUESTION: -- of Dr Aronstam and his staff ? ANSWER: Yes , yes .

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QUESTION: We've heard some evidence that suggests that there were possibly quite significant delays in pupils being told their test results. ANSWER: H mm. 42

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QUESTION: Did Dr Aronstam ever discuss with you that process or -- ANSWER: No .

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QUESTION: -- why he might delay? ANSWER: No idea.

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QUESTION: And then we've heard and read quite a lot of evidence which suggests that many parents were not told by the Haemophilia Centre of their son's infection with HTLV-III. Does that surprise you? ANSWER: That very much surprises me, yes .

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QUESTION: What would your expectation have been of what should happen in terms of telling parents ? ANSWER: Well , I would have thought they'd be told immediately.

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QUESTION: And did you ever, as far as you can recall, ask Dr Aronstam what -- ANSWER: I don't remember . But , I mean , I would -- I would just assume that he had. I know we had to -- we wrote -- I can remember writing a letter which went out to all the parents pretty soon after this happened, to tell them about the AIDS in the school and explain a bit about it. I think it was written by me and by Pat Tomlinson. It may have been signed by Pat Tomlinson, not by me. I can't remember now. But anyhow, I'm sure we did a general letter to inform them of what was going on , so that they would have 43 some idea of what was happening. And I can't remember what the Haemophilia Centre did individually.

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QUESTION: And am I right in understanding that that general letter that you're talking about -- ANSWER: Yeah , that wouldn't mention any names .

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QUESTION: Yes, it would have been a letter to all parents, not just parents of haemophilia boys ? ANSWER: No , that went out to every parent of --

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QUESTION: Because it was now known -- ANSWER: Yes .

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QUESTION: -- that some had been infected and you were trying to provide reassurance to all ? ANSWER: Yes .

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QUESTION: What, if anything, can you recall about the support arrangements for boys who were being given this devastating diagnosis? Do you know what was done to provide support to them? ANSWER: Well, I don't know what was done in the medical side but I know that the care staff took this on and the nurses took it on. And I'm sure the physios as well . But I think the care staff would bear the biggest brunt because, you know, that's the sort of thing that , going to bed at night, the boy would be all upset and chat to his house mother about it. Most of our house parents were married women 44 from -- who lived in Alton. And most of them had children of their own. And they saw this as -- they were horrified and they were desperate to help in any way , to -- you know, to listen to them, to talk to them, whatever they could do. I would think that was their biggest -- that was the best place for them to get help. But help on the medical side , I couldn't tell you about.

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QUESTION: Your statement -- ANSWER: But the emotional side was probably the worst side of all. And of course we had a lot of trouble with behaviour .

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QUESTION: The statement makes reference to there being a counsellor and a consultant psychiatrist ? ANSWER: Yes , we had -- I think we had two counsellors , and we had a psychiatrist who came and visited once a week. And if there was anyone with serious problems, we would refer them to the psychiatrist . But there were -- very , very few went to the psychiatrist. The counsellor saw quite a number of pupils. I think Pat Tomlinson dealt with that. I didn't tend to -- they weren't referred to her by me. That was Pat Tomlinson. I mean , I would have referred one of I wanted to, but I wouldn't know the details. I mean , I'm not -- I was -- I wouldn't be able to know enough 24 June 2021 5 about that.

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QUESTION: The arrangement in relation to the consultant psychiatrist, as I understand your statement and your evidence, that wasn't a specific arrangement made in response to the AIDS situation -- ANSWER: No , it wasn't. No. And I don't remember -- I don't remember it being -- no, it wasn't, no . No.

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QUESTION: And in terms of the counsellors , again, there were not specific counsellors brought in to counsel the boys -- (overspeaking) -- ANSWER: No , we had counsellors for -- I mean , quite a lot of our pupils had -- were very upset about their condition and so on. And so they got help, professional help, through them. But this was -- you know, this was there, it was already there.

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QUESTION: The Inquiry has a statement from one of the housemasters, Mr Scott. We haven't troubled you with it . But he suggests that there was a lack of -- when this happened , when it arose and it was learnt that pupils at the school had been infected with HIV, there was a lack of training to enable the staff to offer psychological support to these pupils. Would you accept that? ANSWER: Well, I -- I mean , how do you train someone to give that sort of help? 46

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QUESTION: Do you know whether anyone at the school, Dr Tomlinson, Dr Aronstam, yourself, any of your staff, contacted any external organisations asking for help as to how to assist the boys best? ANSWER: I don't think so, no.

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QUESTION: So your recollection is that you learnt about it possibly over a number of meetings ? ANSWER: Oh, we -- yeah , I mean there were dozens of meetings, yes. I'm frozen, actually , in here. It's very cold. I'm losing my voice.

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QUESTION: And is it right to understand that , as far as you can recall, you yourself didn't take steps to check that he'd done that because your expectation was -- ANSWER: No, it wasn't my job, was it?

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QUESTION: Did you ask Dr Aronstam, as far as you can recall, how this had happened? How it had happened that -- ANSWER: Well, it was explained to me how it had happened. Do you mean the infect ed blood?

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QUESTION: Yes . ANSWER: Yes .

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QUESTION: And did you challenge him? Did you say, "Was this avoidable, Tony?" Or anything like that ? 50 ANSWER: No . I don't think so. Why would I?

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QUESTION: None? ANSWER: No, not really. I didn't know anything about it, really. I just had confidence in the staff, which -- if you're telling me that my confidence was misplaced, then I'm very sorry. And I'm very sad. But at the time, I had utter confidence in this -- that the staff were being honest and doing their best here.

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QUESTION: Can I then just look with you at a handful of documents which show some of the governors' meetings in 1985, 1986. We've got a number. I'm not going to go to all of them but I just wanted to ask for your clarification on a couple of matters. So if we go first of all to TREL0000363, please, Soumik. Do you have it? We don't have that . ANSWER: I can probably remember if you tell me what it's about .

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QUESTION: I'm simply trying to understand what's being discussed here. And it refers to there being strict precautions to prevent accidental contact with infected blood , presumably from child to child through accidental contact. Do you know what those precautions were? ANSWER: No, I can't remember. I don't remember about this, really. I mean, I think -- I would guess we're talking here about making sure that the pupils realised they had to wash their hands and wash any blood and -- that sort of thing. I don't know.

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QUESTION: And then the next is to identify a risk of : "(ii) through intimate sexual contact ..." And that's said that it: "... could be a particular problem at the College because of the presence of girls who know that they have a short expectancy of life , and may therefore be prepared to accept the risk. " Can you recall what, if any, steps were taken to try to reduce the risk of -- through sexual contact , of the infection being transmitted? 55 ANSWER: Well, I mean , this is -- it's a standard problem in any co-ed school, and I had had experience of exactly this in my previous job. It's just the normal -- what you would do normally to -- what you might do with your own daughter, if you had a daughter , to help her , to prevent her from getting pregnant.

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QUESTION: Do you know what was done? For example , were all the pupils told of the risk of sexual transmission ? ANSWER: Oh yeah , of course. They all knew that, yes. Yes . But, I mean, this is something your -- the house staff are obviously going to be involved in talking to boys and girls about anyhow and , when you've got a boy-girl relationship in a boarding school, the staff will obviously talk to the boy and the girl and make sure they know what the risks are and make sure that -- try and make sure that they're not going to go and have sex. You can't entirely prevent it, but you do your best to prevent it, and you do your best to talk to them about it and make sure that they know what's going on. I mean , I would have -- I have certainly had housemasters come in and say, "Look what I've found in so and so's locker", some condoms. And, you know, we discussed what you're going to do about it.

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QUESTION: And then -- 56 ANSWER: This isn't actually -- this is not really to do with haemophilia. You see, it -- but I mean it obviously becomes -- it becomes a very much more serious situation, more serious matter, because of the additional risk.

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QUESTION: And then if we just read the next paragraph, it says: "In general discussion it was agreed that there must be no ostracism of haemophiliacs at the College, and that the Headmaster's policy of keeping everybody concerned as fully informed as possible was producing the required results, in eliminating unnecessary panic and alarm among staff, pupils and parents." Do you recall whether there were problems with ostracism of haemophiliac children? ANSWER: W hen this -- when this arose, when -- when we first heard about it, it caused a great deal of concern among staff and other senior pupils who were able to know about it, and parents, and certainly parents of -- fathers in particular -- of daughters at the school who had a boyfriend who was a haemophiliac. Yeah , it caused a lot of concern. And we actually anticipated that there would be girls withdrawn from the school, and I anticipated that maybe some staff would say, "I don't want to work here anymore ". But I'm glad to say I don't think -- 24 June 2021 7 I don't remember any member of staff leaving and I don't remember any girl actually being withdrawn , because I think we were as open as we could, and we said, you know , " This is the situation. If you want to leave, you've got to leave" . I don't think anyone did. But yes , it was -- of course it was. I mean, what do you expect? It was really worrying.

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QUESTION: Then if we just look at the next set of -- or a next set of minutes , it may not be the next set . February 1986 . It's TREL0000365. Sir , we can see this is an extract from the " Minutes of a Meeting of the Governing Body ... 24 February 1986 " . If we go to the second page, there's a discussion about AIDS , but I just want to look at the last paragraph on that page. It says at paragraph ( d ): "During further discussion it was pointed out that the parents of pupils carrying the AIDS antibody are already aware of this fact ..." Now , do you know what the factual basis was for your belief that all the parents of infected boys were aware? ANSWER: Well, I'd been told that they'd been informed . 58

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QUESTION: By Dr Aronstam ? ANSWER: I can't remember who it would be. It would presumably be him. It would either be him or Pat Tomlinson . But it would be more likely the Haemophilia Centre would do that, wouldn't it ? I certainly -- that was our understanding.

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QUESTION: And then just one further document. It's a couple of years later, a year later. It's TREL0000092_131, please. This is a letter from you , Mr Macpherson , 16 July 1987 , to the Social Services department of -- looks like the London Borough of Croydon. And I'm not asking you anything about any -- the individual child to which this relates. But we'll see in the second paragraph, you say this: "In this College we have a large number of boys suffering from haemophilia and we work on the assumption that every one of them is a carrier of the AIDS virus. We take all the precautions for every haemophiliac based on this assumption. We do not know which of the haemophiliacs are AIDS virus carriers." That would tend to suggest that you yourself didn't know which children were infected. Do you think that's right? ANSWER: I think we worked on the assumption that all the 59 haemophiliacs were at risk here, and that it was easier to assume that it was possible that any one of them had the AIDS virus.

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QUESTION: Yes , I understand that . It was more about the last sentence, which would suggest that , from the school's perspectiv e -- ANSWER: Well, I mean --

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QUESTION: -- you didn't know ? ANSWER: Well, as far as I can remember, there were very few who didn't have it. It was quite rare. I only know of one haemophiliac who came to the school who actually never ever suffered in any way , and no one knows why he didn't get affected. That was quite rare. I mean , it just so happens sometimes that some people don't get something. He was lucky, I suppose. But I don't -- I mean , I think at the beginning we probably were told the names of them, but after a little while, it was pretty well everyone who had -- every one, every haemophiliac was infected, as far as I can remember. There were very, very few who didn't get infected , so you just assumed they all had it. I don't think we went into the -- it didn't really matter to us. We just assumed that they all had it, because I think most of them had.

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QUESTION: Do you -- we can take that down, thank you. 60 Do you recall any occasions when the media came to the school gates because -- ANSWER: No , I -- yes , I read that somewhere. I find that hard to believe, because if we'd heard of that, we would have jolly well soon sent them packing. It may have happened once or twice, but I mean it never came to my attention. Certainly not. And I don't know what the basis is for that story.

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QUESTION: And then, if we go to WITN5561003 , and we go to the second page. This is an extract from the school prospectus that you've exhibited to your statement. I think your statement tells us it's the 1989 prospectus. Yes , 1989 to 1990 prospectus . But I just want ed to look at what it says about healthcare and then just ask you a little about that. It says: "The aim of the medical staff at the College is to have an interdisciplinary team of doctors, nurses and therapists all working closely together to assess and treat each child's individual problems so as to achieve as much independence as possible . The medical team works closely with the parents , the teachers and care staff in the houses , and with the hospital consultants involved with each child. "The team is led by the College Medical Officer, Dr Pat Tomlinson ..." 24 June 2021 1 Then there's reference to some of the other staff. Then if we see the next paragraph it says: "When a child is ill, he or she will be admitted to the Medical Centre and looked after by the nursing staff under the direction of Dr Tomlinson. The parents will be informed and if the child needs hospital treatment this will , if possible , be at their home hospital where the child is already known." And then there's some further discussion then about arrangements during the holidays and so on. That's talking about the general medical centre and the work of Dr Tomlinson, but would you have had the same expectation of parental involvement for the Haemophilia Centre? ANSWER: Yes.

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QUESTION: And although this is a 1989 to '90 prospectus, would that have been your expectation, really, throughout the whole period of time that you were headmaster ? ANSWER: Yes .

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QUESTION: Thank you. Is it right to understand that , in terms of the Haemophilia Centre, perhaps because of its slightly unusual status with the doctors being NHS employees, you left it to the Haemophilia Centre to fulfil that expectation rather than yourself trying to oversee 62 their work ? ANSWER: Well, yes , but in fact even if they had been employed by us, it would have been the same situation. I mean , as far as Pat Tomlinson was concerned, I would never have dreamt of saying to her -- or interfering in anything she was doing . Never ever. Because I'm not a doctor.

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QUESTION: And then I was going to ask you the rest of my questions after the break just about the football ban . I am hoping we might now have the document. TREL00000036_053. So this is a letter from Dr Painter -- you're absolutely right, was there for about a year -- to you. This is dated 17 May 1978. Again, it's about a particular child who was found playing football and I'm not asking you about the individual child. But if we could just look at the last paragraph of the letter, it says: "I am afraid it does make our task even more difficult when we find that boys are blatantly disregarding medical advice they are given and in consequence run an increased risk of requiring further transfusions , which, of course, come at great expense to the National Health Service. There is also a worry that our supplies of Factor VIII may not be quite as 63 easy to obtain as in the past and it is even more vital that we do not waste material on boys who cannot be bothered to follow the most basic advice." That might suggest that the question of expenditure and being able to get hold of treatment, products, did play a part at least in the doctors' minds in advocating the football ban. Do you have any recollection of that? ANSWER: Well , he's saying supplies may not be as easy to obtain as in the past. I mean, that's a question of supply and demand. That's something I don't know anything about and , you know -- I don't see anything wrong with this, to be quite honest. We should not be wasting money on -- if we can be sensible and good and husband what we've got . But I mean all he's saying here is that the boys have got to be sensible and they 've got to actually learn to look after themselves in a way that they don't get bleeds. This is obviously in their best interests. And if he's saying that we shouldn't waste -- we should try and not expend money on something that can be avoided, to a certain extent, it's fair enough. I don't think -- I think you're probably reading too much into this, actually , to be quite honest. I think he's -- who is this, Dr Painter? Yeah , I don't think 64 he was trying to ... I don't -- I think what you're implying is not quite right. I don't think that was what was behind it.

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QUESTION: We can take that down, thank you. Did Dr Aronstam ever attend the meetings of the governing body to provide updates to them about the work of the Haemophilia Centre? ANSWER: I can't remember.

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QUESTION: Do you recall whether the governing body ever sought to exercise any oversight over the work of the Haemophilia Centre? ANSWER: No , I don't think so. I mean , why would they? I don't think they would have any reason to, actually. I can't think of any reason why they would want to. The governors are there to govern. They're not there to run the school. That was my job.

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QUESTION: Do you recall representatives of pharmaceutical companies ever attending the school site? ANSWER: No .

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QUESTION: And the Inquiry has had some evidence that pharmaceutical companies would leave branded gifts for the pupils, teddy bears and kites ? ANSWER: Leaving what?

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QUESTION: Branded gifts, gifts , for example , bearing the name of the pharmaceutical company ? 24 June 2021 5 ANSWER: What sort of gifts?

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QUESTION: Kites, teddy bears and the like. Is that anything you had any knowledge of? I think your answer to that is no ? ANSWER: Sorry?

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QUESTION: You s hook your head and the transcript can't pick up a shake of the head, so is your answer to that " no " ? ANSWER: Okay -- yes , but we had quite a strong parents committee , who met quite regularly. And they raised money for the school and they organised social things for parents . One of the things they organised was an annual ball, a ball, in the school hall, which had a big attendance , a lot of people came from Alton to it, as well as our own parents. And they had some absolutely incredible prizes there for sort of raffle prizes and I know they all came from gifts from somewhere. So it is possible that what you're talking about went there. But I don't remember anything else, anything directly to individual pupils or anything.

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QUESTION: Then can I then ask you about research that was undertaken in relation to pupils with haemophilia. The Inquiry is aware from documents it's seen that there were a number of research projects undertaken involving , for example , Dr Rainsford and Dr Aronstam and Dr Kirk at various points in time. 66 What knowledge did you have of that area of activity? ANSWER: Not very much. Just chatting to them about it occasionally , about , "How are you getting on ?" That sort of thing. But I wouldn't get any details .

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QUESTION: So is it right to understand that neither you, as headmaster, nor the governing body or the school as an institution , was asked for its permission or agreement for research to be undertaken? ANSWER: Well, we must have given permission, mustn't we, otherwise they couldn't have done it ?

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QUESTION: But you've no recollection of any specifics? ANSWER: No recollection of what?

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QUESTION: Of any specific pieces of research or any discussions about permission ? ANSWER: No . I don't remember -- I don't remember anything particularly there. I mean , as far as I can remember, these were -- these were thought to be very worthwhile. What they were doing was thought to be very worthwhile, and to be encouraged. That was our feeling.

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QUESTION: Do you know what , if any , parental involvement or parental knowledge of the research there was ? ANSWER: I'm pretty sure the parents knew what was going on, but they probably didn't know much about the details.

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QUESTION: When you say you're pretty sure they knew what was 67 going on, is that because your expectation is that the doctors would have told parents or did you yourself tell parents about research activities? ANSWER: I don't think I ever told the parents about it, because I didn't know what it was about. I didn't know what they were doing. I really can't -- I don't think I can answer that one.

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QUESTION: Can I just take you back briefly to the hepatitis B or serum hepatitis outbreak that there was in the mid-1970s -- '74, '75. Do you recall being aware at the time that that outbreak was caused by treatment with factor concentrates? ANSWER: Sorry, can you say that again?

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QUESTION: Of course. When there was the hepatitis outbreak in 1974 , ' 75 -- ANSWER: Was I aware of what?

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QUESTION: Were you aware that the cause of the outbreak was the treatment with the factor concentrates? ANSWER: Yes.