Is that an ongoing problem with Democrats? Do you think that's also the case with President Obama?

Listen, the last thing I'm ever going to do is criticize the president. I think we should work very hard to make this president a good president, even if you would prefer somebody else. The time to prefer somebody else is two years from now, not while he's president. We need him to be good, for our country, for our kids. But I think that it is too easy to let your political guys set your agenda; you'll never do anything if you have your political guys that close. It is too easy to look at the polls and lead from the back. I have always said what I believed, even when it's not popular, and the results are that today if you did a poll in New York City, after the mosque, after nine years in office, we'd have a 65 percent approval rating. I think the ways to be popular are to say what you believe.

Watching you up close at a couple of political functions, I don't think I've ever seen a major politician less worried about whether people liked him, whether they're reacting well to him.

No, but I care as much as anybody else. You know, if you don't want people to like you, you should see a shrink. The first day I ever campaigned was on South Beach in Staten Island. And this nice little old lady with white hair comes up to me and she said, "Oh, I'm glad you're running. You're a breath of fresh air. I'm going to vote for you. All my friends are going to vote for you. Anybody that wants to run against you is going to drop out right away." And I'm thinking, "Shit, this is easy. First day and I'm elected." Then she looks up at me adoringly and says, "And I'm so glad you're pro-life." And I remember for a billionth of a second in my mind: What do you say? Do you lie? You want someone's vote. She's got all her friends; she's influenced the whole city already the first day! I don't wanna piss her off. But I said, "Well, I'm so sorry, I happen to be very much pro-choice. I'm not in favor of abortion, but I do think it's totally up to the woman's right to choose." And I will bet you anything that I got that woman's vote.

Consistency is paramount?

It's the old saying: You dance with the one that brung ya. The president, I think, needs some better advisers. He campaigns "I'm gonna do A," and then he doesn't do it. Now he's pissed off the supporters and the opponents. You go for it.

Do you have any ideas for better advisers?

No. I don't know. David Alrod, when I've talked to him, he seems very smart, and Rahm Emanuel, who I've known forever, he is very smart. [But] you know, if you're going to stand up for the mosque Friday night, you don't walk away from it Saturday morning.

Who has been the past New York mayor you admire most or are most interested in, or who had to deal with problems that are most similar to yours?

I have a friend, David Rockefeller; he's 95 years old. My father, if he were alive, he wouldn't find my success fascinating. He would have found fascinating the fact that I can tell you David Rockefeller is a friend on a first-name basis. That would have been something. But David's first job was as secretary to a mayor. And the mayor was Fiorello La Guardia, and his job was to walk around and write down everything that La Guardia said. And La Guardia said, you know, "There's no Republican or Democratic way to pick up the garbage." La Guardia did what he thought was right; he was not afraid of anybody. That is, I'm sure he was afraid of people, but he never let it show. And he was willing to tackle the big things. He had a good feel for people. He wanted to help the less fortunate, but he understood you needed a tax base. And I think, you know, he's as good an example as any. And we're the same height, I think.

**Is there a big, transformative idea you could imagine getting behind, for the city and/or the country, or is the job of the mayor just the daily grind, getting it done? **

Collect the garbage, educate the kids, and keep it safe. That's why mayors never go on, incidentally, to higher office—I prefer to call it "other office," I don't think it's higher. The mayor's job is not to cave in, and just as we've resisted those wages and benefit increases for city workers that we can't afford, we've also resisted tax cuts that businesses and conservative ideologues may want but that we can't afford.

So you're not running for "other office," including president?

I've said many times, I have no intention of running for president or any other office.

_Kevin Baker is a novelist and historian whose most recent book is _America: The Story of Us.