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If you think O2 headers are bad, check this out. - richardburton http://www.kiteandcode.com/post/16459436941/if-you-think-o2-headers-are-bad-check-this-out ====== darklajid So the complaint is that no one tells the world about the insecurity of text messages. And the blame is laid on a network provider. This is wrong. First of all I think it's a bad idea to jump on the (valid!) privacy complaint against O2 in the UK with this unrelated thing. Second, as many pointed out already: This is not a problem of any carrier. So your peers are surprised if you send a text message from their mum's number? Sure, understandable and maybe that needs to be fixed. But your carrier is not responsible for that in my world, just as yahoo/google etc. cannot protect you from most spoofs in the mail world. And - gasp! - you can do similar things with a call (ever noticed that Skype offers to call 'from your number'?). If the article wouldn't hijack a real issue _and_ wouldn't blame the wrong target, then I think there's a valid point somewhere in there: We, the technical crowd, should find a way to educate people around us about inherent trust issues. But that should be a constructive project, not mud slinging. ~~~ jka Google and others can and do try to protect users from spoofing - in my opinion, every communication service provider should try to prevent their users from being misled by impersonators. I'm not sure educating all users about the spoofability or otherwise of all existing communication systems is the way forward as a tech community - there's more we can do in terms of bolstering existing security and trying to validate/flag existing messages. I've never enabled the ability to 'call from my number' for any services, so I would expect that others would be unable to spoof mine. ~~~ darklajid Google tries - but cannot. Ultimately it can only do the same dance that it does with spam. Learn, improve, tweak - and never succeed. I think a general project to explain encryption/signing would be awesome. I'd _love_ to send mails to my bank, to the government etc. and have them be legally binding. I'm sure it could help against quite some amount of spam as well, if you understand that an address isn't to be trusted by default. I .. don't get that last part. How do you think is the process of being able to authorize a 'from' number? Technically gazillion of services could probably do it. It's inherently simple if you are well-connected. Skype certainly doesn't need to ask you first and have a kind of exchange with you and your carrier that 'unlocks' their ability to use your number in an outgoing call. It's a policy that protects them from abuse (i.e. they care, because of legal implications and because of possible business impact if they'd abuse it). [1] They don't need to get your ok though, if they don't want to. 1: This is based on a limited experience in my past, where I had (legal) access to an asterisk server with a nice trunk connection to a mobile carrier in DE. I certainly don't have extensive telecom knowledge, but got a glimpse at least. ~~~ richardburton Google tries - that is a good thing! The networks do not. Check this tweet from the mobile network 3: <https://twitter.com/threeuksupport/status/162101700595957760> ------ mootothemax This is not the fault of any one network; it's a fact of life when it comes to SMS. You can have all kinds of fun, whether it's messages that appear to be from you, your friend, or 11 characters of your choice, an SMS that will only display without being stored, or even a voicemail notification. There's a nice guide to the format here: <http://www.dreamfabric.com/sms/> ~~~ richardburton Agreed. But they do not care at all. That is my complaint. ~~~ bad_user To fix it, you'd have to reinvent the protocol. That's like reinventing email. Well good luck with that ;) ~~~ richardburton My lack of knowledge on this subject is evident here I am afraid. Is there not a way the networks could, like Google, try and detect spam or spoof messages? ~~~ bad_user Yes it can with reasonable accuracy, but it's a whack-a-mole game, because there is no standard, many attempts have been gamed successfully by spammers, not all email servers are configured to use the latest "practices" (since this gets expensive) and not all email clients are configured to use the latest practices because that would trigger many false positives. I just did an experiment. Using my local Postfix email server with the default settings, I just sent an email from [email protected] to my GMail account. It arrived in my Inbox just fine. And I'm sure that if I sent this to dozens of people, then GMail would have flagged it, but it chose not to. ------ alexchamberlain As the tweet pointed out, this has been possible for years. You can also send emails from whoever you want. ~~~ richardburton I know. But that does not mean the networks should not try to stop it. ~~~ viraptor Stop it how exactly? It's the same thing as with phone calls. Unless we migrate to some technology which involves signed, verifiable sources, there's nothing they can do about things like that. Once your telco approves that you can send out any number as source, you can send out any number as your source - they're the highest authority atm. Everything that happens between telcos on the wire is trusted since telcos trust each other. There are valid use cases for that too of course - setting your presented id as the number of your company's reception, having a single number for incoming connections (or a group) but using multiple lines for calling out, etc. You can probably ensure the account sending the traffic is closed since it's likely to break multiple local laws, but on the receiving side, there's nothing left to do. ~~~ jka I would have expected that the networks cross-reference the device an SMS was sent from (IMEI?) with the sender phone number claimed in the message. I don't think that's unreasonable, but Richard seems to have found that this basic check isn't being performed here. Are you so keen to see a system remain with this insecurity just because you have a fundamental belief that perfect security isn't possible? Most if not all security is a case of shades of gray, and there's clearly a lot that could be improved here by the network. ~~~ viraptor Why do you assume that SMS messages come only from phones having an IMEI? Not only IMEI can be changed at will and is not connected to the phone number, you can send messages from a service which has legitimate reason to send the message as you. That's possible by design. It's not that I believe that perfect security isn't possible. I believe that this issue cannot be fixed in any reasonable way without redoing most of how the current system works. I did some telephony-related work and I don't see any way this kind of limitation can be put on top of our current networks (both regarding sms and phone number spoofing). ~~~ jka I'd imagine that most users only send SMS messages from their phones, not third party services. If the default was that users _couldn't_ send from other services/devices, then that majority of users wouldn't be vulnerable to the spoofing, and those who opt-in to allow third-party sending would at least be aware somewhat of the implications. Unless I misunderstand the underlying technology? ~~~ viraptor Companies would have to create a central authority saying what source numbers are allowed to be used in what way. Everyone would have to check this database before sending the message from their direct customer. Everyone would have to keep it up to date. Procedures for handing over control and allowing third- party modifications would have to be created. And when I say everyone, I mean every single provider in the world, not just ones in your country - there's nothing preventing people from Germany from sending "from number" +1..... And there's still an issue of how to authorise the third parties. If some bank says multiple sources can use its number for sending messages, how do you identify them? Still - it would take only a single provider ignoring this to break the whole scheme. It's a bit similar to spam really. ------ casca This is just silly. Anyone who has industry experience knows that it's trivially possible to spoof SMS phone numbers. Just like with email, it's possible to make the system more secure but given the margins associated with SMS, not likely. For a clear example, imagine that I'm roaming in Zimbabwe with my UK cellphone. I send an SMS through the Zimbabwe carrier. It (eventually) arrives to the UK recipient network, ready to be delivered. That network could do some form of verification, but as they only get the final billing tally a few days or weeks later from the Zimbabwe ISP, they don't have enough information to do so. It would not make any sense for the carriers to do SMS verification. And given that emails are far easier to get people to click on links to phishing and malware sites, spoofing SMSs has limited value. Also, did you know that I could phone you and claim to be someone else? ~~~ richardburton _Anyone who has industry experience knows that it's trivially possible to spoof SMS phone numbers._ Exactly. My point is that the general public do not know. That is bad. What do you think? ~~~ corin_ It simply isn't possible to prevent this, and your blog post just skates over that and blames the networks. All they could do is raise awareness, which realistically won't do a whole lot. ------ adhipg The SMS service that I use to send messages has an option to send an SMS 'from' any number I choose and it works nicely. I can send messages 'from' anyone I want - and we actually use this feature to facilitate a user to easily get replies to her messages sent directly to her phone. ~~~ richardburton What service are you running? ~~~ adhipg <http://www.fastsms.co.uk/> ~~~ richardburton You should police your service better. Not impressed. ~~~ adhipg I don't run that service. I actually just use their API and do my best to ensure that you can't spoof someone's number (you verify your phone number with me before I can send an SMS as you). ~~~ richardburton I asked for your service that you were running that needed to do what you do. Thanks for the down-votes. ~~~ adhipg hehe, I just wanted to clarify my stand there. About downvotes - well, I don't even have the ability to downvote (atleast all I can see is just an upvote triangle) - so, not me! ------ richardburton Just so you know, this is what Orange had to say about the site <http://www.hoaxmail.co.uk>: Hi Richard Although I can understand why you may be concerned over the potential misuse of the below site, this is a third-party service which is independent of Orange and we would have no control over its existence. If you have received an offensive or questionable message from this service, you can report this to them for investigation via <http://www.hoaxmail.co.uk/help/faq.php?ref=H13> . I hope this helps! Darren Orange Helpers ------ brador With this technique, replies go to the correct sender number sent not the spoofer, right? ~~~ richardburton Correct. But that can often make the pranks even better. Especially if you send simultaneously from two people to one-another. ------ ukgent2 Sorry but this is a null issue, I have Text message APIs that allow me to specify the sender ID. I understand your app is sexy in that it works off the phone but anyone with a few pounds can do this. Text message spoofing is easy, CLI spoofing is the "cool" thing todo, and if you can spoof the Passert ID then you are gold ------ zokier There is lots of people saying that filtering SMS would be impractical for carriers. Could you explain why that is? Wouldn't it be relatively trivial to check if the number in the SMS header matches the number of the SIM card sending the message? ------ richardburton To be clear, I am well-aware this is not a new issue. However, in the context of the Leveson enquiry into phone "hacking" and O2's recent blunder, I think it is a great time to revisit this issue.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
PEP 518 Accepted: Specifying Build System Requirements for Python Projects - stonesixone https://hg.python.org/peps/file/tip/pep-0518.txt ====== stonesixone tl;dr Specifies a pyproject.toml file so alternatives to setup.py can be used.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Ask HN: What are some of the best documentaries you've seen? - spoondocz ====== evo_9 Wild Wild Country on Netflix is outstanding: [https://www.netflix.com/title/80145240/](https://www.netflix.com/title/80145240/) I'm also a big fan of BBC Horizon's episodes, they cover a wide range of topics and generally are quite excellent and well researched. [https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006mgxf](https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006mgxf) ~~~ ccostes Wild Wild Country completely blew my mind. It didn't happen that long ago, seems like it would have been major national news on a number of occasions, and yet I had never heard anything about it before watching the doc. ~~~ evo_9 Totally agree. Also, can you imagine the response by both the local armed residence + local law enforcement would be today if a group of foreigners took over a town and armed themselves? Total Bloodbath. ------ iaresee Grizzly Man: [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0427312/](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0427312/) \-- the folly of humans when it comes to interacting with wild animals well illustrated The Fog of War: [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0317910/](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0317910/) \-- whoa. Just: whoa. The Thin Blue Line: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thin_Blue_Line_(1988_film)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thin_Blue_Line_$1988_film$) \-- when a conviction goes wrong. I guess I really like Errol Morris and Herzog? Probably. ~~~ smacktoward Morris is brilliant. His 1999 doc _Mr. Death: The Rise and Fall of Fred A. Leuchter, Jr._ ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr._Death:_The_Rise_and_Fall_o...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr._Death:_The_Rise_and_Fall_of_Fred_A._Leuchter,_Jr.)) sticks with me to this day. ------ anonu The BBC's Planet Earth series is fantastic. Reminds me of Shakespeare: "There are more things in heaven and earth then are dreamt of your in philosophy"... Makes you really appreciate the beauty on this planet. Also - a bit of a curveball answer: I really like Documentary Now! (on Netflix). They are parodies of really well known documentaries. So I ended up watching the parody and then looking for the source material on which it was based. I realized that my wife (art major) knew almost all the original documentaries and I knew almost none (engineer...) EDIT: Wikipedia has the mapping of parody->original : [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Documentary_Now](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Documentary_Now)! ------ platz Restrepo is a 2010 American documentary film about the Afghanistan war. The 2nd Platoon is depicted defending the outpost (OP) named after a platoon medic who was killed earlier in the campaign. The huge success of this film and what separates it from the hundreds of other war pictures is that Junger puts us right in the middle of the action without any political agenda. He simply decides to film these groups of soldiers who have been deployed to one of the most dangerous locations in Afghanistan and lets us experience their day to day lives without making any pro or anti war comments. We are allowed to see a small glimpse of what the American soldiers have to go through and how they live amongst the villagers. In a way Junger allows the soldiers being filmed to tell their own story. We experience what they are going through in this dangerous war zone and how they interact with the local people. The cinematography is actually quite astonishing and I really felt like I was there with the soldiers. The movie isn`t pro or anti war; it simply places the camera in the middle of the action and lets us experience what is going on. No one`s opinion about War is going to change: those who favor Americans involvement in Afghanistan will still do so after watching this documentary and those who don`t will still feel the same because the directors don't try to manipulate us into thinking the way they do. There aren`t any personal opinions about politics or war; it's all about experiencing what these soldiers have to go through every day whether or not they actually understand what they are fighting for. It is only 90 minutes long so it is really worth your time. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restrepo_(film)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restrepo_$film$) ~~~ Balgair The sister film is _Armadillo_ (2010) [0] which follows a group of Danish soldiers from pre-deployment shenanigans, to the FOB in Afghanistan, IED attacks, possible war crimes (found to be baseless), and then the return home. To me, the most striking scenes were the ones where the Danish and UK soldiers would play FPS games, don very high tech gear, bounce about in armour, etc. and then contrast that to the rusty, bent rifles and leftovers from the soviets, the sandals, the dust, the mud, of the afghan fighters. The war has never been close in any way and the Junger quote comes screaming into your head: “Each Javelin round costs $80,000, and the idea that it's fired by a guy who doesn't make that in a year at a guy who doesn't make that in a lifetime is somehow so outrageous it almost makes the war seem winnable.” [0] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armadillo_(2010_film)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armadillo_$2010_film$) ~~~ x220 >“Each Javelin round costs $80,000, and the idea that it's fired by a guy who doesn't make that in a year at a guy who doesn't make that in a lifetime is somehow so outrageous it almost makes the war seem winnable.” Do you know how useful a Javelin is? I think it's worth that much if it will save the life of the soldier firing it. I'd sure pay that much for it if I had the money and I thought it would save my life, or the lives of my comrades. ~~~ Balgair I should have been more clear. The quote comes from Sebastian Junger, one of two filmers of _Restrepo_ , the comment I was replying to. My take on his quote was that he was explaining that the cost differentials are insane and a general waste of money for both sides; that the war is not worth fighting in a very real sense of blood and treasure, not that lives are not worth saving. [https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/275699-each-javelin- round-c...](https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/275699-each-javelin-round- costs-80-000-and-the-idea-that-it-s) ------ Splendor The Act of Killing - [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2375605/](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2375605/) _" A documentary which challenges former Indonesian death-squad leaders to reenact their mass-killings in whichever cinematic genres they wish, including classic Hollywood crime scenarios and lavish musical numbers."_ ~~~ fetus8 Mr. Oppenheimer is one of the most interesting film makers I've had the chance to meet and hear in talks at Q&As. I strongly recommend his two films, and if you can ever find your way to see "Titicut Follies", do it. I saw it at Telluride with an intro by Oppenheimer and was blown away. "Titicut Follies" is a documentary by Frederick Wiseman about a mental institution in Massachusetts, in the 1960's. It's a haunting film about the way the patients are treated, it's quite extreme and sad but fully worth a view. You've never seen anything like it, and probably can't imagine how truly horrifying it is. ------ smacktoward Lots of good ones already mentioned, but here's a few nobody's brought up yet: Orson Welles' _F for Fake_ : [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0072962/](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0072962/) Robert X. Cringely's _Triumph of the Nerds_ : [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triumph_of_the_Nerds](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triumph_of_the_Nerds) The Maysles Brothers' _Gimme Shelter_ : [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0065780/](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0065780/) Randy Olson's _Flock of Dodos_ : [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0800334/](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0800334/) Les Blank's _Burden of Dreams_ : [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0083702/](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0083702/) Steve James' _Hoop Dreams_ : [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0110057/](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0110057/) Chris Hegedus and D.A. Pennebaker's _The War Room_ : [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0108515/](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0108515/) ------ anfractuosity I really loved 'Jiro Dreams of Sushi', showing how much care and effort he puts into making it: [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1772925/](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1772925/) ~~~ aaronbrethorst I suggest following up with _Chef 's Table_ on Netflix, which is a documentary series in a very similar vein from David Gelb, the creator of _Jiro_. ~~~ kerbalspacepro People seem to think that _Jiro_ is good because it is about food. It's not. It is good because it's about _Jiro_. Chef's Table might get the people who salivate over a upward pan over a pan, but it doesn't have the same secret sauce in my opinion. ~~~ wslh Let's see then Chef Table S01E03 about the Argentinian Chef Francis Mallmann [1]. [1] [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Mallmann](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Mallmann) ------ nsfmc Adam Curtis' short "Oh Dearism" ([https://thoughtmaybe.com/oh- dearism/](https://thoughtmaybe.com/oh-dearism/)) 12 minute mini-documentary is a good ramp up to his longer movies and is a critique of the failings of television news media in the late 20th century. My favorite of his is "Bitter Lake" ([https://thoughtmaybe.com/bitter- lake/](https://thoughtmaybe.com/bitter-lake/)), a haunting "how did we get here" view of the middle east. His 3 part miniseries "All Watched Over By Machines of Loving Grace" ([https://thoughtmaybe.com/all-watched-over-by- machines-of-lov...](https://thoughtmaybe.com/all-watched-over-by-machines-of- loving-grace/)) is a pretty good examination of 1970s silicon valley ruh-roh cybernetics culture and how it collided with the rest of the world vis-a-vis objectivism, finance, etc. Somebody in this thread mentioned Wiseman's titicut follies, a lesser known but equally fascinating documentary of his is called The Store ([http://www.zipporah.com/films/19](http://www.zipporah.com/films/19)) and just follows and examines the goings on at the Nieman-Marcus flagship in Dallas during holiday season of 1983. Another favorite documentary that's more like watching a really good lecture is Thom Andersen's Los Angeles Plays Itself ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles_Plays_Itself](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles_Plays_Itself) ). it's a survey and exploration of the history of Los Angeles and its relationship and portrayal in hollywood and pop culture in general. ~~~ antisthenes Oh boy. How can you mention Adam Curtis without mentioning 'The Century of the Self' series? ~~~ nsfmc ok, i love that series, but i am not sure i would necessarily recommend it as a starting point (plus i felt like i had maxed out on recs) but i strongly endorse it as a great series! ------ bartcobain Hypernormalisation from Adam Curtis. I have been looking for another documentary as visual appealing, as evolving as this one but haven't found any other documentary. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fny99f8amM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fny99f8amM) Do you know another documentary as good as this one? ~~~ nexensis If you like Hypernormalisation you should definitely look into his other documentaries, especially Century of the Self. It explores the rise of advertising in the 20th century, revealing how it emerged from propaganda during the wars and deeply wove itself into social norms. It might be the most powerful documentary that I've seen, because I watched it as an advertising undergrad and it unnerved me enough to move away from the field. For example, it wasn't socially acceptable for women to smoke until the 20's, when the American Tobacco Company paid a group of suffragettes to prominently light up cigarettes whilst on public display during the Easter Day Parade. They positioned smoking as a display of independence for women, piggybacking the feminist movement and calling cigarettes "Torches of Freedom". There are several examples like this in the documentary, along with interviews from their creators. It's shocking how easily public opinion can be swayed, and the techniques are far more powerful now through the Internet and social media. If I could ask every human to watch a documentary, it would be this one followed by Hypernormalisation. You can watch most of Curtis' work for free at [https://thoughtmaybe.com/by/adam-curtis/](https://thoughtmaybe.com/by/adam- curtis/) ------ newman8r I wouldn't call it the best documentary, but I think people here will like it, it's a 4 part documentary: "A Video History of Japan's Electronic Industry" I. Birth of the transformer: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihkRwArnc1k](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihkRwArnc1k) II. Circuits in stone: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGRNXmWng3M](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGRNXmWng3M) III. Calculator wars: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ansXGewduN4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ansXGewduN4) IV. Tech Giant: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G40YwOg0_B8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G40YwOg0_B8) ------ hprotagonist _Into Great Silence_ , a very intimate portrayal of life in a monastery in southern France. " The idea for the film was proposed to the monks in 1984, but the Carthusians said they wanted time to think about it. They responded to Gröning 16 years later to say they were willing to permit him to shoot the movie if he was still interested. " [https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/into_great_silence/](https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/into_great_silence/) ------ wes-k Surprised no one mentioned this one yet: > The King of Kong: A Fistful of Quarters is a 2007 American documentary film > about competitive gaming directed by Seth Gordon. It follows Steve Wiebe in > his attempts to take the high score record for the 1981 arcade game Donkey > Kong from the previous holder, Billy Mitchell. \- Wikipedia ------ rm_-rf_slash Carl Sagan’s _Cosmos_ , first and foremost. Much of Adam Curtis’ work is fantastic. _Hypernormalization_ and _The Trap_ were as fascinating as they were frightening. If I had the authority, I would mandate every child see _A Century of the Self_ in school, and then again in college. James Burke’s _Connections_ was also excellent. Kind of like a link between Carl Sagan and Adam Curtis. I personally loved the History Channel’s _Engineering an Empire_ , not least because of the hilariously hyper-American host, Peter Weller (best known as RoboCop). ~~~ webmaven James Burke's "The Day the Universe Changed" is likewise excellent. ------ fetus8 I'm surprised no one has mentioned HBO's 'Going Clear', which dives deep into what's happening in the Church of Scientology. Granted, the topic is probably not the most surprising, but it covers a wide range of issues and scary on-goings within the group. Maybe I'm just young, but I didn't know the full extent of what they do and how they do it. 'Going Clear' does a fantastic job of informing the viewer while giving a voice to those who've escaped and are now dealing with the backlash. ~~~ Ricardus Jesus Camp is another one if you want to be frightened by cultists and religion. ------ gmiller123456 Fundamentals of Small Arms Weapons. It's a documentary by the US Army showing how firearms work starting with just a barrel and a bullet and progressing in design all the way up to selectable fully automatic. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJzXG7MYX1c](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJzXG7MYX1c) ------ pommed The Century of the Self: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJ3RzGoQC4s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJ3RzGoQC4s) The Mystery of the Gnome Homes: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLoBWpiOczQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLoBWpiOczQ) The Jinx: The Life and Deaths of Robert Durst: [https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2xz5fs](https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2xz5fs) ~~~ lofo Another great Adam Curtis : [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HyperNormalisation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HyperNormalisation) ~~~ bartcobain Do you know any other documentary as good as this one? Any suggestion? ~~~ c0nducktr Sticking with Adam Curtis, I greatly enjoyed The Power of Nightmares. ------ samfriedman Paris is Burning: a classic that explores the "ball culture" of New York in the 80s, and the impact it had on the city's gay, transgender, black and Latino communities. It's great for how it follows the various characters as they prepare for balls, while explaining the subculture and its slang/practices along the way. Very entertaining and historically important too. In the same vein, does anyone have any other recommendations for docs that dive deep into a subculture? ~~~ z303 Demoscene - The Art of the Algorithms [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3840830](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3840830) ~~~ culot Back in 1995 warez demos were one of the things that most drove my interest in programming. Tangent: 'BBS: The Documentary'. Great film, I only wish it were about 4 hours longer -- it seems much too brief. ------ drakonka I loved Icarus; it was just amazing how more and more off track the filmmaker's original plan went as he got entangled with this Russian doctor and found himself documenting a much more interesting story than the one he originally set out to do. ~~~ hackandtrip Agree, but to be honest it seems to me really weird that such type of evolvement etc wouldn't be pre-discussed. Also, about that amazing documentary: -I find it annoying that the involvement of other nations isn't dragged in more, leaving it all on Russia making it a little political oriented. -Its interesting how little is the dosage of testosterone taken by that guy, and that other molecules are not used + I don't really remember if they discussed about a PCT (you cant just take test and hope that your natural levels will re-establish again, it's like flipping a coin, specially considering how little research there is on those molecules). ------ gvajravelu Not a true documentary (since it was released as a TV series in episodes), but I'd say The Long Way Round. It documents the real life journey by Ewan McGregor and Charlie Boorman as they attempt to road trip from London to New York on motorcycles (except for a plane from eastern Russia to Alaska). They come across a number of different cultures and outdoor adventures along the way. It's very entertaining and an interesting look into different countries of the world. I'm rarely hooked to TV shows, but this one got me. ~~~ dugditches Along the same lines. Without as much production/support behind them. Sibirsky Extreme Trail( To map an offroad trail route all the way from the edge of the European Union, across Eurasia to the Pacific Ocean at Magadan) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_ZC2WPnkfc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_ZC2WPnkfc) Races to Places(Rider traveling the world while competing in some Rallies) Fairly laid back fellow, and 9 seasons so far. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utXZKuo8iws](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utXZKuo8iws) ~~~ oddsockmachine Also c90adventures - a very low budget but hilarious series of long distance rides. ------ ratfaced-guy The World at War [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World_at_War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World_at_War) It's a BBC series that chronicles the second world war. It was made in the 1970s and features interviews with the people who were actually there. I really recommend everybody watch it at least once in their life. I think you can find it on YouTube. ~~~ everybodyknows "The Sorrow and the Pity" \-- interviews with former French irregulars of WWII. French Resistance veteran: "You had to be a little bit crazy to join the Resistance." French SS volunteer: "We were raised on stories of the Spanish Civil War: priests being murdered, nuns raped." ------ briga I would recommend Kevin Kelly's website truefilms.com for a great list of documentaries on a large variety of topics. No matter what your interests are you're sure to find something interesting on here. Werner Herzog has produced a number of fascinating documentaries that are just as good as his fictional films in my opinion. Wings of Hope, Encounters at the End of the World, Cave of Forgotten Dreams, Grizzly Man--he has an enormous talent for drawing profound, almost mythical ideas out of the subjects he captures. He's not for everyone, certainly, but his films have a unique vision you don't often see in documentaries. ------ mikeabraham Only because no one has mentioned it yet, "When We Were Kings". About The Rumble in the Jungle. We forget that, at the time, people were worried that Foreman, the hardest hitter who ever lived, might _kill_ Ali in the ring. The savvy of Ali's "rope a dope" strategy, combined with the way he got in Foreman's head, whispering in his ear in the clinches, was genius. IMO, you can't watch this film and not agree -- GOAT. ~~~ Jaepa If anyone wants to watch the the match in full it can be found here [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55AasOJZzDE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55AasOJZzDE) ------ gota "The Isle of Flowers". It's heart wrenching and it's only 13 minutes: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQcdXh9v0pA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQcdXh9v0pA) I could give you a summary but watching it with no context makes it as powerful as it was intended to be. The 'videoclip' editing has been somewhat overdone, but this was done in 1989 so please give it a break and stick to it. The doc itself was very famous in its time, but has since somewhat faded from public memory. Kinda like Marjoe and others, come to think about it ~~~ bradnickel Wow, thanks for sharing that. It is powerful. ------ dustinmoorenet The Vietnam War: A film by Ken Burns & Lynn Novick I watch it on Netflix. It is an even handed look of the war from both sides. It was so good. Be prepared to get angry and to cry. ~~~ tokyoHacker I second this. Amazing documentary. Icing on the cake are the songs (from Bob Dylan and other legends) that overlay the outstanding narration. ------ oddsockmachine Samsara - [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samsara_(2011_film)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samsara_$2011_film$) A non-narrative film, with stunning visuals. I feel it shows some of the best and worst of humanity, but in a non-pushy or judgemental way. It just leaves you to make your own conclusions. ~~~ brandoncordell I watched Samsara while on LSD it was a very beautiful experience. Some of the scenes really hurt me deeply. I couldn't help but cry. Also check out Ron Fricke's Baraka ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baraka_(film)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baraka_$film$)). It's just as beautiful in my opinion. ------ rayvy Netflix: "The Farthest: Voyager in Space" (2017) - "This documentary chronicles NASA's 1977 launch of twin space probes, sent to capture images of remote planets and bear messages from Earth." [https://www.netflix.com/title/80204377](https://www.netflix.com/title/80204377) ------ japhyr Road - The story of Joey Dunlop, and the motorcycling family he came from: [https://www.netflix.com/title/80079364](https://www.netflix.com/title/80079364) Meru - Conrad Anker, Jimmy Chin, and Renan Ozturk climb the Shark's Fin on Mount Meru in India: [https://www.netflix.com/title/80039641](https://www.netflix.com/title/80039641) Valley Uprising - A history of climbing in Yosemite: [https://www.netflix.com/title/80084836](https://www.netflix.com/title/80084836) Touching the Void - The story of Joe Simpson's accident and harrowing survival in his climb with Simon Yates on Siula Grande in the Andes. I'm not sure the best way to view this. ~~~ Dowwie The part in Touching the Void where the the man begins to hallucinate that happy, irritating song ought to have a scientific explanation for it. I often have a song play in my mind when I hike, but doubt that my experience is even close to what he experienced. ------ wmat Some of my favourite nerdy documentaries: BBS: The Documentary [https://youtu.be/nO5vjmDFZaI](https://youtu.be/nO5vjmDFZaI) The KGB, the Computer, and Me [https://youtu.be/EcKxaq1FTac](https://youtu.be/EcKxaq1FTac) 8 Bit Generation: The Commodore Wars [https://youtu.be/Jq_t-v0bDZ8](https://youtu.be/Jq_t-v0bDZ8) ~~~ Dowwie BBS :). It brought back nice memories. ------ ilamont I love, love, love music documentaries. The great ones have a great story to tell. I also believe that the ones about bands have some lessons for people starting businesses and dealing with cofounder friction, creative dynamics, licensing, etc. Many of them also deal with the impact of technology on recording, performing, and marketing. Recommended: "Anvil! The Story of Anvil" ([https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1157605/](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1157605/)) "What Happened, Miss Simone?" ([https://www.netflix.com/title/70308063](https://www.netflix.com/title/70308063)) "Soundbreaking: Stories from the cutting edge of recorded music" (PBS documentary on history of sound recording) ([http://www.pbs.org/soundbreaking/home/](http://www.pbs.org/soundbreaking/home/)) "Sound City" (about legendary recording studio in LA, narrated by Dave Grohl) ([https://www.netflix.com/za/title/70265771](https://www.netflix.com/za/title/70265771)) "Last Days Here" (About the singer of early doom metal band Pentagram) ([https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1723126/](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1723126/)) "As The Palaces Burn" (Lamb Of God's singer tried in Czech Republic for an incident at a concert) ([https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nB6k-Ev_H7c](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nB6k-Ev_H7c)) People love to hate on "Some Kind of Monster" because they don't like the album St. Anger but I really believe that it caught Metallica at a vulnerable and revealing time in their history. ([https://www.netflix.com/title/80174429](https://www.netflix.com/title/80174429)) ~~~ durkie A few more great musical documentaries: Searching for Sugarman: [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2125608](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2125608) Don't Think I've Forgotten: [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2634200](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2634200) ------ todd8 _Crumb_. Its about the iconic counter-cultural cartoonist Robert Crumb (creator of the 1960s/1970s underground comics _Fritz the Cat_ , _Keep on Trucking_ , etc.). The Wikipedia entry for it[1] says (along with other accolades): "Crumb was met with wide acclaim from critics, earning a 95% rating on Rotten Tomatoes. Gene Siskel rated Crumb as the best film of the year...Roger Ebert gave the film four (of four) stars, writing that 'Crumb is a film that gives new meaning to the notion of art as therapy.'" [1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crumb_(film)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crumb_$film$) ------ ranuamar Andrew Marr's History of the World [https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLQupjl7KjR5vqzfweATuw...](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLQupjl7KjR5vqzfweATuwQLgytRPE6wnd) [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2441214/](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2441214/) "Andrew Marr's History of the World is a 2012 BBC documentary television series presented by Andrew Marr that covers 70,000 years of world history from the beginning of human civilisation, as African nomadic peoples spread out around the world and settled down to become the first farmers, up to the twentieth century." ------ mendelsd "Manufacturing Consent: Noam Chomsky and the Media" [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0104810/](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0104810/) ------ qcoh I really like Alone in the Wilderness, which is about Dick Proenneke building his log cabinby hand and living a solitary life in Alaska. ~~~ minimaster I was so happy to see somebody else mention this great movie. I just love the tranquility and watching him build all those things. ------ cbanek Hearts of Darkness: A Filmmaker's Apocalypse It's all about the making of Apocalypse Now. It's really great, I'd say it's almost as good as Apocalypse Now the movie itself. The mental state of the characters and what it took to make this movie blew my mind. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hearts_of_Darkness:_A_Filmmake...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hearts_of_Darkness:_A_Filmmaker%27s_Apocalypse) ------ lofo Titicut Follies: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titicut_Follies](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titicut_Follies) The Emperor's Naked Army Marches On: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor%27s_Naked_Army_Mar...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor%27s_Naked_Army_Marches_On) Grizzly Man: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grizzly_Man](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grizzly_Man) Burden of Dreams: [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0083702/](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0083702/) Boatman: [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0106445/](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0106445/) For wild-life I'll pick any Cousteau or BBC documentary \---Below are French movies (but worth trying to find in English)--- Depardon's Profils Paysans trilogy : [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0284409/](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0284409/) L'Inde fantôme : [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0063914/](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0063914/) ------ mitchbob The Corporation [http://thecorporation.com/](http://thecorporation.com/) ------ AceyMan "The Cove", (2009) about the secret practice of commercial Cetacea (dolphins, mainly) hunting in Japan (a Metascore value == 84, fwiw). And +1 for "Grizzly Man." ~~~ phakding I bought the DVD after it was released, but could never bring myself to watch it. The few clips I watched were extremely disturbing for me. ------ jimnotgym My favourite is probably _This is Spinal Tap_. It really captured the creative power of a rock band on tour. ~~~ mikeabraham That made me laugh out loud. Well done. ------ vortex_ape Bigger Stronger Faster* "... is a 2008 documentary film directed by Christopher Bell, about the use of anabolic steroids as performance-enhancing drugs in the United States and how this practice relates to the American Dream." \-- Wikipedia ------ motogpjimbo Lots of good suggestions here already, so a few lesser-known ones I've enjoyed: Typeface - follows the volunteers at the Hamilton Wood Type museum. [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1207998/?ref_=nv_sr_1](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1207998/?ref_=nv_sr_1) / [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typeface_(film)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typeface_$film$) Dogtown and the Z Boys. On the birth of professional skateboarding. [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0275309/?ref_=nv_sr_2](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0275309/?ref_=nv_sr_2) / [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogtown_and_Z- Boys](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogtown_and_Z-Boys) Riding Giants. From the director of Dogtown. This one focuses on the development of big wave surfing. [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0389326/?ref_=nv_sr_1](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0389326/?ref_=nv_sr_1) / [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riding_Giants](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riding_Giants) Pumping Iron. Follows Arnold Schwarzenegger and Lou Ferrigno as they attempt to win the 1975 Mr Olympia competition. [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0076578/?ref_=nv_sr_1](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0076578/?ref_=nv_sr_1) / [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumping_Iron](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumping_Iron) ------ ajonnav 'Chasing Ice'! It's about a photographer (James Balog) who set up cameras in parts of Greenland, Iceland and Alaska to take time lapses of glaciers over the course of a couple of years. The images (and the difference that a couple of years makes) is astounding -- it truly is the most stunning visualization of global warming/climate change that I have ever seen. And it's on Netflix. ------ mongol There is a category of documentaries I never see mentioned in these lists. It is the kind which often is shown in Sweden under the name "Dokument utifrån" and is about foreign affair events that are current or about a year or few years old. These productions are, I guess, often from the BBC but also french, dutch, german etc productions that I assume are made by television companies associated with the EBU (European Broadcasting Union) They often include interviews with people who "were there when it happened", such as ministers, diplomats, military brass etc. Do people get what I am trying to describe? I kind of fail to do so, I feel... Edit: I just checked what is up next in this series. It is this italian documentary about events in Egypt, "Our man in Cairo" [http://www.gaea.it/video.asp?id=9143](http://www.gaea.it/video.asp?id=9143) Quite illustrative to what I mean. I haven't seen this one but it seems interesting ------ genjipress 'Shoah', by Claude Lanzmann, who passed away earlier this year after a career of excellent documentary filmmaking. Review by Roger Ebert when it was first released: [https://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/great-movie- shoah-1985](https://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/great-movie-shoah-1985) ------ lalos Searching for Sugar Man, do not watch the trailer or read on it. It will spoil the documentary! If you like music, 60s, justice, Bob Dylan and feel good story its a must watch. ~~~ crtasm Read about it after though, they told a story that doesn't really match reality. ~~~ lalos I've seen those criticisms but you have to remember this is before the Internet and before cross communication with other countries, etc. It's a stretch, do those critics expect them to be investigating something and spending hard earned money visiting all countries around the world to verify some random fact of an artist? The documentary is based on the personal experience of some fans in South Africa and people that give that criticism don't seem to understand the context. Plus, the film (as its title is named) is about THEIR search for sugar man not about the life of the guy itself or all the facts around his life. ~~~ crtasm Fair points, also I see this on Wikipedia > South Africans were unaware of his Australian success due to the harsh > censorship enacted by the apartheid regime coupled with international > sanctions that made any communication with the outside world on the subject > of banned artists virtually impossible. ------ neuron_ Cizenfour is hands-down my favorite movie of all time. It’s cinematically beautiful and the inside perspective on the Snowden leaks is tantalizing. I can’t receomend it enough. ------ sorenn111 Food, Inc. It may come across as propaganda for organic food, but I found the insight into industrial style farming and the major consolidation of food providers fascinating. Made me much more appreciative of places that try to buy locally and well-treated (relatively well) animals. ------ asplake How Buildings Learn, based on (and in some ways better than) the Stewart Brand book. Definite takeaways for software architecture, and includes appearances by Christopher Alexander, a key instigator of the patterns movement. Produced by the BBC in the 90's, now on Youtube - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvEqfg2sIH0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvEqfg2sIH0) Turns out that many architects of the built environment are just as prone as those of the software kind to not caring about the usability and maintainability of their systems, let alone how how they will evolve over extended periods of time. ------ Zardoz84 On early 90's, there was, on Spain,collection of documentals about astronomy. They were pretty good! Even as a little kid I understand everything, and the documentals were pretty straightforward explain everything. I would say that are at the same level that Sagan's Cosmos. I'm trying to get the original source, but I only managed to discover that could be a translation of "A galactic odyssey" of NHK-TV, or reused some stuff from it. I ripped some of my old VHS to YouTube : [https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL32C7C4EF477AB37D](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL32C7C4EF477AB37D) ------ charlie_hoxie I am a documentary filmmaker and the one title I am surprised not to have seen here is American Movie. [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0181288/](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0181288/) True documentary classic- incredible characters, editing, treatment. Just an overall gem. And if you dig that, check out Home Movie, a follow up from Chris Smith & excellent example of the vignette approach to a feature doc [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0275408/](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0275408/) ------ laurex I used to distribute docs and produce them for a living. It's awesome that docs are in the spotlight again, but it's pretty remarkable how limited the selection can be on streaming services, in terms of critically acclaimed work. If there's a hole in the marketplace, this might be it. Some of my favorites: Hoop Dreams Jesus Camp Salesman Lost in la Mancha Stranded Anvil: the Story of Anvil When We Were Kings Sherman's March F is for Fake The Thin Blue Line Sans Soleil Don't Look Back Up the Yangtze I Am Not Your Negro ------ hjuutilainen Grizzly Man still gives me goose bumps: [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0427312/](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0427312/) ------ Ricardus Wow. I'm a bog Doc fan. I'll list a few of my favs: Touch the Sound. For me this was life changing. The story of a deaf percussionist. [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0424509/](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0424509/) Man on Wire. Also life changing. [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1155592/?ref_=nv_sr_1](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1155592/?ref_=nv_sr_1) Winnebago Man. Fascinating!You've probably seen his vids on youtube. [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1396557/?ref_=nv_sr_1](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1396557/?ref_=nv_sr_1) Anvil: The Story of Anvil. I worked in the music scene in the 80s and heard of these guys, and always wondered what happened. This film answers that question. [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1157605/?ref_=fn_al_tt_4](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1157605/?ref_=fn_al_tt_4) My Architect. A sons journey learning about his dad, through his dad's architecture. [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0373175/](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0373175/) ------ dustinmr Touching the Void. Based on a book by Joe Simpson Amazing story and perspective. ~~~ raffael-vogler I like those documentaries because they bring my ordinary personal worries and fears back into perspective. Very inspiring. ------ bfdm I was surprised that nobody had yet suggest Ken Burns' The Dust Bowl. While not particularly exciting, to be honest, I found it incredibly moving and educational. The origins and extent of the plight and its ramifications across the whole country are nothing short of country-defining. That the solutions to come out of at are so far removed from where we are today and how the US seeks to solve similar wide-spread economic challenges is deeply saddening. ~~~ Dowwie This documentary compelled me to study more about this calamity ------ richev If you have any interest in the Apollo missions... In the Shadow of the Moon [0] The film follows the manned missions to the Moon made by the United States in the late 1960s and early 1970s. The documentary reviews both the footage and media available to the public at the time of the missions, as well as NASA films and materials which had not been opened in over 30 years. For All Mankind [1] A 1989 documentary film drawn from original footage of NASA's Apollo program which successfully landed the first humans on the Moon from 1969 to 1972. Moon Machines [2] The miniseries features interviews with around 70 of the 400,000 engineers who worked on the Apollo program during the 1960s and early 70s. These are variously available on DVD and YouTube. [0] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_the_Shadow_of_the_Moon_(fil...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_the_Shadow_of_the_Moon_$film$) [1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/For_All_Mankind](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/For_All_Mankind) [2] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon_Machines](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon_Machines) ------ contingencies The entire genre of 'non-narrative documentary' film [https://www.imdb.com/list/ls073014744/](https://www.imdb.com/list/ls073014744/) notably _Manufactured Landscapes_ @ [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufactured_Landscapes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufactured_Landscapes) Many BBC documentary series. Personal favourites include _History of India_ and _Islamic History of Europe_. The extremely unique (probably never to be repeated in spirit) and zeitgeist- defining _Julian Assange Show_ @ [https://www.rt.com/tags/the-julian-assange- show/](https://www.rt.com/tags/the-julian-assange-show/) and _Citizenfour_. A post-facto interview based documentary whose name I forget, perhaps _Real War_ , about Russian military human rights abuses in the Caucasus, which was extremely shocking. Many SBS _Dateline_ reports. ------ jspash "Big River Man" \- [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0956101/](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0956101/) It follows Martin Strel a Slovenian long distance swimmer as he attempts to swim the 3000+ miles of the Amazon and chronicles his struggles with the sheer effort of the swim, his personal life and alcoholism. You don't need to have an interest in swimming or sport at all. It's just a really well-made documentary with many layers. "Valley Uprising" \- [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3784160/](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3784160/) Rock climbing in Yosemite. The story begins innocently enough but as it proceeds through history of the climbs, it becomes more and more astonishing. Well worth a watch! Again, you don't need to be interesting in climbing at all. A good story is a good story. ------ ArtWomb Good recent selection is Steve Aoki's _I 'll Sleep When I'm Dead_. There is something inspiring about an inside look in real time at someone playing at the absolute peak of their game and the backstory of how hard they had to struggle to get there ;) _Active Measures_ is also pretty much required watched for the current conversation. ------ blotter_paper Indecline Volume 1: It's Worse Than You Think [https://youtu.be/imbA7eExNhE](https://youtu.be/imbA7eExNhE) (^^^ Totally NSFW!) This is a ridiculous film, made by the guy who put out Bum Fights volumes 1 and 2 (but not 3 -- he sold the rights and another guy put out volume 3 using some of Ryan McPherson's old footage as well as new footage where the new film makers literally assaulted unsuspecting homeless people while dressed like Steve Irwin). In Bum Fights, McPherson paid homeless people to fight each other and do dangerous stunts. This isn't the case with Indecline. Indecline shows the film makers vandalizing property (think graffiti), and it shows other people doing stupid shit (a guy breaking into cars, a guy stabbing another guy through the chest, etc.), but the film makers don't seem to be paying other people to endanger themselves this time around, just filming it. This is a horribly depressing film. Expect to see a lot of human misery. Expect to question the motivations of the film makers. Expect to question the half-expressed political opinions of the film makers. Since this film was made they've put out some other, shorter, less cringey, more banky pieces. Probably most well known is The Emperor Has No Balls (they made news for leaving these statues in some major cities without prior announcement): [https://youtu.be/f7TeTzOgkMs](https://youtu.be/f7TeTzOgkMs) I prefer this large scale graffiti they did on a US military weapons testing site: [https://youtu.be/HJWFHoyW-3g](https://youtu.be/HJWFHoyW-3g) McPherson also made the news for shipping human body parts (including an adult heart and an infant head) to the US from Thailand. He said he bought them at a local market, and was sending them to a friend "as a prank." They were later traced back to a hospital. ------ wahern The Kid Stays in the Picture: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Kid_Stays_in_the_Picture](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Kid_Stays_in_the_Picture) It's an autobiographical film about somebody you probably don't know or would ever care to know. It primarily uses collage (e.g. photographs, press clippings) for the visuals, narrated by the subject. What's most memorable is just how darn _good_ the film is. It's like your uncle presenting an Oscar-worthy slideshow in his basement. It felt like a masterpiece of film making. No film has ever left such an impression on me. I deeply appreciated and was in awe of its artistic merit. But I haven't seen it since its original release. Maybe it really only works on the big screen or similar environment. ------ r0rbit Haven't seen a mention of Louis Theroux yet, but he is easily my most favorite documentary maker. His style of straight forward questioning of difficult or taboo topics creates a very authentic impression of people. Definitely check him out. The one about pedophilia in particular was very gripping. edit: language ------ ConcernedCoder Maybe not a documentary, but I can watch "How it's made" like people binge- watch netflix shows... ------ forapurpose Chronicle of a Summer (Chronique d'un été): On one hand, a simple documentary where they conduct Studs Terkel-like interviews with working-class people in Paris in 1960, asking a simple question: _Are you happy?_ As do all the best documentarians, they magically bring out the most profound, innermost thoughts of their subjects. On the other, a documentary about documentaries and their realism - interspersed are questions of how real and honest what we see is, and near the end the subjects watch the finished product together and discuss how real and honest they were in front of the camera. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronique_d'un_été](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronique_d'un_été) Considered an innovative milestone in documentary film-making. ------ KentGeek Lots of great documentaries already mentioned, but one of my favorites "Tim's Vermeer" hasn't been yet. [https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/tims_vermeer_2014](https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/tims_vermeer_2014) ------ xaranke A Map for Saturday, definitely opened my eyes to spending a gap year traveling the world. Maybe some day. Link: [https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00R07DF6C/ref=cm_sw_su_dp](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00R07DF6C/ref=cm_sw_su_dp) ------ blang A movie about the wine industry and fraud, Sour Grapes: [https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/sour_grapes_2016/](https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/sour_grapes_2016/) If you want to do long dives anything by Ken Burns, baseball is a classic: [http://www.pbs.org/kenburns/baseball/](http://www.pbs.org/kenburns/baseball/) A documentary about Napster directed by not Keanu of Bill and Ted's Excellent adventure, Downloaded: [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2033981/](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2033981/) ------ dgudkov Icarus (2017). Won an Oscar, has 93% rating on Rotten Tomatoes. Not just the story of how state-sponsored doping and corruption kill Olympic games and major sport competitions, but the emotional and sometimes artsy way the movie is made is very impressive. ------ gotrythis Earth From Space (2012) [https://m.imdb.com/title/tt2149708/?ref=m_nv_sr_1](https://m.imdb.com/title/tt2149708/?ref=m_nv_sr_1) This documents Earth by combining imagery and data from many different satellites, to model the Earth in a way never before seen before. It shows how different systems of the Earth interact with each other that is absolutely mind-blowing. For example, you see how a stirring of dust in the desert creates a daily migration of minerals into the Amazon rainforest which allows the rainforest to survive and thrive. It shows daily, and weekly, and Millennial long cycles that power the planet and really changes how you see the Earth. And it's gorgeous. ------ piccogabriele I really liked "I'll sleep when i'm dead", the Steve Aoki documentary : [https://www.netflix.com/title/80118930](https://www.netflix.com/title/80118930) ------ godelmachine Lo and Behold, Reveries of the Connected World [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lo_and_Behold,_Reveries_of_the...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lo_and_Behold,_Reveries_of_the_Connected_World) ------ phlillip Hoop Dreams ([https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoop_Dreams](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoop_Dreams)) - 1994. This is a long basketball documentary following two youngsters from the housing projects of Chicago. I was lucky enough to visit Chicago for a week with work just a couple of months after seeing this; it led me to learning so much more about the struggles of people living in the housing projects of Cabrini Green, Robert Taylor Homes etc. Whether you're a fan of basketball or not, this is an eye opener into much wider issues. ------ levimaes Sean Carroll's "Great Courses" production on the "Higgs Boson, and Beyond" [1] offers like 5 hours of what you'll likely gradually find to be a very accessible, informative and entertaining audio/aural chronology of the Higgs boson's conception; through its planning, and on through the LHC experiment, and finally past its discovery, into the current state of affairs regarding field theory. 1\. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUv1OJ2PE0s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUv1OJ2PE0s) ------ dccoolgai "Tickled" will absolutely blow your mind. It feels like you have a front-row seat to a real scandal in a way that no other documentary I've ever seen does. All the "Dirty Money" episodes are pretty good, but the best one by far IMHO is the one about the racecar driver / payday loan scam empire. Just amazing. "Plastic China" is really tough to watch (and may be even more deeply uncomfortable for people who pat themselves on the back for recycling) but I think it's one of the most important revelations in documentary filmmaking in the past 5 years or so. ~~~ smacktoward _> It feels like you have a front-row seat to a real scandal_ I haven't seen it yet myself, but lots of people whose opinions I respect have told me that _Weiner_ ([https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5278596/](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5278596/)) is good for this as well. ~~~ redhale As is "Icarus" (PEDs in cycling) ------ kazinator [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enron:_The_Smartest_Guys_in_th...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enron:_The_Smartest_Guys_in_the_Room) ------ bahador Why We Fight (2005) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_We_Fight_(2005_film)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_We_Fight_$2005_film$) ------ adventured Nobody else has mentioned this, so I will: When We Left Earth: The NASA Missions [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1233514/](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1233514/) Pretty great, with high quality historical footage as well. I think you can buy the HD streaming version on Amazon for $10 (258 minutes long, broken into six segments). Silicon Valley (by PBS) is another: [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2547530/](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2547530/) ------ tmsh I just tweeted about this coincidentally. [https://www.amazon.com/11-Filmmakers-Commemorative-Tony- Bena...](https://www.amazon.com/11-Filmmakers-Commemorative-Tony- Benatatos/dp/B005LSX90O) is good watching multiple times. Definitely anything Steve James has done too - currently America to Me ([https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7768836/](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7768836/)). ------ gspyrou Jodorowsky's Dune (2013) [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1935156/](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1935156/) ------ gadders Buck - [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1753549/](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1753549/) \- Story of the actual real life horse whisperer. Chicken People -[https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4819510/](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4819510/) \- follows three people for a year as they show their chickens at chicken fancier shows. Pretty gentle and just a nice film. ------ turbojerry A few that have not been mentioned yet- We Are Legion - The Story of the Hacktivists (about Anonymous) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zwDhoXpk90](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zwDhoXpk90) The Commodore Story [https://thecommodorestory.com/](https://thecommodorestory.com/) From Bedrooms to Billions [http://www.frombedroomstobillions.com/](http://www.frombedroomstobillions.com/) ------ tashmahalic "The Magic Pill" ([https://www.netflix.com/title/80238655](https://www.netflix.com/title/80238655)) defied my preconceptions, along with [https://youtu.be/1rz-8H_i1wA](https://youtu.be/1rz-8H_i1wA). They're about low-carb, keto diets and how decades of "low fat" conventional wisdom was based on bad science, industry pressure, etc. ------ arethuza One that had a huge impact on me as a kid was "QED - A Guide to Armageddon" \- which is a very factual analysis of the effects of a nuclear weapon on a modern city. It's available on YouTube. The director went on to make _Threads_. Also - "Behind the Lines" about the training done by the Arctic and Mountain Warfare Cadre of the Royal Marines: [https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00j9v8j](https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00j9v8j) ------ fyrstenberg I found this one very interesting: "How Big Oil Conquered The World" "From farm to pharmaceutical, diesel truck to dinner plate, pipeline to plastic product, it is impossible to think of an area of our modern-day lives that is not affected by the oil industry. [...]" [https://www.corbettreport.com/episode-310-rise-of-the- oiliga...](https://www.corbettreport.com/episode-310-rise-of-the-oiligarchs/) ------ TimMeade Muscle Shoals. About all the music recorded in muscle shoals Alabama. From Percy Sledge and Areatha to the Rolling Stones and many many more. ------ dsfyu404ed Waco: The Rules of Engagement It is a 1997 Documentary covering the 1993 FBI siege of the Branch Davidian compound in Waco, Texas that ended with the death of almost all of the men, women and children in the compound. Waco is considered by many to be the second part in a sad trilogy that starts in Naples, ID and ends in Oklahoma City, OK. I'd be interested in knowing of good documentaries that cover the other parts. ------ wj There was a documentary on the City of God DVD that was better than the film (and I thought it was an amazing film). A few from Netflix that I could find that I rated: Endless Summer Death in Gaza The Filth and the Fury Jiro Dreams of Sushi Baseball March of the Penguins The Art of the Steal Born Into Brothels The Aristocrats God Grew Tired of Us The Fog of War The Lost Wave The Last Waltz Festival Express ~~~ Dowwie Forgot about March of the Penguins! Everything about that documentary was great, especially Freeman as narrator. ------ neuron_ The Overnighters fundamentally shifted how I think about selflessness, greed, apathy, and NIMBYism. I think about it on a near-daily basis. ~~~ raffael-vogler I was very much impressed by this documentary on many different levels. The time I watched it fell right into the time when lots of refugees seeked shelter in Germany and when Trump agitated about Mexican migrants. Because this film is also about xenophobia - but fascinatingly the targets of this sentiment aren't Arabs or Mexicans but Americans! That shows how detached society even within one country became detached from itself. ------ edw519 Gettysburg by Ken Burns. The best thing I've ever seen on TV. [https://www.pbs.org/kenburns/civil-war/](https://www.pbs.org/kenburns/civil- war/) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Civil_War_(miniseries)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Civil_War_$miniseries$) ------ geoffw8 Quincy - just out on Netflix about Quincy Jones. What a fascinating life he's had. Watched it with a smile on my face the whole time. ~~~ genjipress Also worth seeing is another doco made about him years earlier, 'Listen Up: The Lives Of Quincy Jones.' ------ 6Az4Mj4D Particle Fever about the CERN [http://particlefever.com/](http://particlefever.com/) Alpha go 2017 ------ Already__Taken Absolute zero was really interesting, Found some 720p ones but the audio is super quiet Pt 1 [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCDsXU15USI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCDsXU15USI) Pt 2 [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxKFeQF6_zc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxKFeQF6_zc) ------ everybodyknows Cartel Land. Spoiler: Includes serendipitously captured footage of a local thug's takedown by vigilantes. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4126304/reviews Shows how Mexican drug lords aren't so much entrepreneurs, as rather players within a bigger system. This came as a much-belated epiphany to me. ------ raguilera Art & Copy. A great look into what goes into great advertising. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBksrtEXGCw&t=](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBksrtEXGCw&t=) Best quote? "Advertising is poison gas. It should bring tears to your eyes, unhinge your nervous system and knock you out." ------ Dowwie So many Ken Burns documentaries come to mind but I think the National Parks one is my favorite. The Vietnam War, his latest work, was excellent too. "Lo and Behold" by Herzog depressed the hell out of me. It gives me the impression that society is being torn apart by the independence that technology enables. Farenheit 9/11. Michal Pollan's Cooked series. ------ SeanBoocock One I haven't seen recommended yet is "Stories We Tell". A bit unique and definitely one to see without reading too much on it. As for others that people have already mentioned, I'd second the nods to "Touching the Void", "Encounters at the End of the World", and "The Act of Killing". ------ matdehaast I am a documentary nut! Lots of amazing ones mentioned but one that I have to point out that has not been mentioned is "Winters on Fire". Really does a great job of documenting the lead up to Ukrainians finally having enough of Russia's puppet Prime Minster. Warning! Not for the faint of heart. ------ Insanity For something bite-sized I enjoy the netflix "Explained" series. And maybe "Dark Tourism" still fits this genre? ------ mmmrtl Samsara is utter beauty [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samsara_(2011_film)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samsara_$2011_film$) No (spoken) narrative, so I can't tell you what you're meant to learn, but it gave me a big overview effect of the world. ------ sxg Somm and The Imposter. Somm delves into the lives of a few guys as they study for their sommelier exam. You get to see how intense this niche of the world is. I won’t spoil anything about The Imposter, but definitely check out a trailer. It’s about a boy that goes missing and is found much later. ~~~ vbo I thought Somm was over the top, even cringeworthy at times. Somm 2 was actually enjoyable and I'm looking forward to their third film. ------ ivank Riding Solo to the Top of the World (2006) [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0903013/](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0903013/) The Atomic Cafe (1982) [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0083590/](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0083590/) At Sea (2007) [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1829648/](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1829648/) The Vietnam War (2017) [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1877514/](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1877514/) Lessons of Darkness (1992) [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0104706/](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0104706/) Tim's Vermeer (2013) [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3089388/](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3089388/) Weiner (2016) [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5278596/](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5278596/) Jodorowsky's Dune (2013) [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1935156/](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1935156/) Los Angeles Plays Itself (2003) [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0379357/](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0379357/) The Art of Japanese Life (2017) [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7002974/](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7002974/) The Great Happiness Space: Tale of an Osaka Love Thief (2006) [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0493420/](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0493420/) The Triumph of the Nerds: The Rise of Accidental Empires (1996) [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0115398/](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0115398/) The Jinx: The Life and Deaths of Robert Durst (2015) [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4299972/](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4299972/) ------ miomio38 Dancing with the devil. Violence in Rio's favelas [https://m.imdb.com/title/tt1379064/plotsummary?ref_=m_tt_ov_...](https://m.imdb.com/title/tt1379064/plotsummary?ref_=m_tt_ov_pl) ------ voxadam Enron: The Smartest Guys in the Room ------ badideaprojects McConkey Trailer: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiFo- osFHwQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiFo-osFHwQ) Brilliant documentary about the life of Shane McConkey and his progression from skiing, BASE jumping and ski wingsuiting. ------ lucas_membrane "Crime + Punishment" is a very strong one. It includes hidden camera and hidden microphone documentation of what goes on inside the New York City police and justice system and documents how hard it is to make anything better nowadays. ------ Simulacra Our Daily Bread was really fascinating for its unflinching look at food production. 101 Rent Boys about prostitutes on the Sunset strip. Unknown Knowns was amazing. also two old documentaries from Frontline on credit cards: “ The secret history of the credit card“ and “the card game“ ------ iancmceachern Baraka. No narrative, no traditional story, just stunning images from around the world. [https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0103767](https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0103767) ------ andy-wu Netflix’ Icarus had me on the edge of my seat. Details the Russian doping scandal. ------ iamben Just For Kicks. It's probably 10+ years old now, but a fascinating and super, super well put together doc on sneakers and the culture around it. Entertaining even if you're not sold on the subject matter. ------ gakos Style Wars "The Original Hip-hop Documentary" [http://www.stylewars.com/site/](http://www.stylewars.com/site/) Amazing, gritty portrait of NYC in the 80s. ------ lolive Just saw Finding Vivial Maier, which gives details about the everyday life of the most underrated photographer ever. This shows a mix of both complex personality and pure talent. This was a very interesting show! ------ EngineerBetter The Secret Life Of Waves. It made me think differently about life, the universe and the nature of complex systems. I also found The Brain with David Eagleman a series that gave me revelations about all sorts of things. ~~~ kranner You’d probably enjoy David Eagleman’s book Incognito and also maybe his quirky book of short stories Sum. ~~~ EngineerBetter Thanks! ------ billfruit Asif Kapadia's 'Senna'. 'India's Daughter' by Leslee Udwin for an interesting record of modern India. Generally I do think, documentaries work better when they avoid talking heads. ------ chwolfe Spellbound: [https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0334405/?ref=m_nv_sr_3](https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0334405/?ref=m_nv_sr_3) ------ manish_gill A few I've seen recently: 1\. Vietnam series by Ken Burns 2\. Icarus 3\. Barca Dreams ------ jonbaer Afghanistan The Great Game: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6a7bP49ehKQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6a7bP49ehKQ) ------ ken BBC's Planet Earth. ~~~ petepete The entire Life series too. Every part is fantastic. ------ d0m Apocalypse: Documentary on 1st and 2nd world war. I thought it was great because it used original videos. There are 5 episodes for 1st world and I think 5 for 2nd world war. ------ ChristianBundy Earthlings. It goes into detail about how non-human animals are used to create animal products, and what our alternatives are. My only note is that the narration is hit or miss in some parts. ------ sjh Last Train Home: [https://m.imdb.com/title/tt1512201/](https://m.imdb.com/title/tt1512201/) ------ jotjotzzz The Venus Project: Future by Design The Corporation Inside Job HBO's documentary on Warren Buffet Who Killed The Electric Car? ------ yread I liked "One Strange Rock" by Darren Arronofsky. It's a couple of astronauts talking (mostly) about space and life and physics. It has crazy beautiful visuals ------ nunoarruda [https://topdocumentaryfilms.com/top-100/](https://topdocumentaryfilms.com/top-100/) ------ trippypig ‘Pulling John’. If your first inclination is to say, “A documentary about arm wrestling In shall not watch!”, check yourself at the Netflix login. It's really compelling. ------ tetek "The architect and the painter" "How the dutch got their cycle paths" "Helmut by June" ------ mayamatrix No one's mentioned _"Exit Through The Gift Shop"_; the documentary about Banksy?? ------ pknerd Power of nightmare by Adam Curtis. ------ bootsz Happy People (2010). Focuses on isolated communities living in remote areas of Siberia and their way of life. Also: Chef's Table Wild Wild Country Tickled Jiro Dreams of Sushi ~~~ wingerlang Tickled and the short follow up were both amazing. ------ den1k stewart brand how buildings learn - free on youtube: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvEqfg2sIH0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvEqfg2sIH0) (uploaded by the man himself) ------ brokenmachine In addition to lots of the ones mentioned here, I enjoyed OJ: Made in America. ------ chaddattilio “13th” kind of a history of about the 13th Amendment and mass incarceration. ------ guiomie Recently, I really like "The Untold History of the United States". ------ drcongo Dear Zachary had me balling my eyes out alone at midnight. ------ paulie_a Something ventured and silicon valley are two great ones. ------ gozzoo The Untold History of the United States by Oliver Stone ------ mosalarynolife Hated: GG Allin and the Murder Junkies It's on Youtube somewhere... ------ classicsnoot Empire of Dust Cave of Forgotten Dreams Zero Days Beslan Wild, Wild Country 10 Days in Gaza World War Two in Colour The Horn documentaryheaven.com has a lot of dross and a few nuggets ------ dominotw I watched some ' extraordinary lives' documentaries with modern day video footage 1\. Stalin's Daughter : [https://www.amazon.com/Stalins-Daughter-Svetlana- Alliluyeva/...](https://www.amazon.com/Stalins-Daughter-Svetlana- Alliluyeva/dp/B078GVQ6ZF/) 2\. Last emperor of China Puyi: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KnlcJk2w4E](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KnlcJk2w4E) Crazy ups and downs. ------ joelaaronseely Try these: On the rise of Al Qaeda: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_of_Nightmares](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_of_Nightmares) Exploration of lives of John Maynard Keynes, Friedrich Hayek, and Karl Marx [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masters_of_Money](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masters_of_Money) ------ HiroshiSan Quincy, what an incredible man. ------ smokecrack 1\. The Look of Silence 2\. Let the Fire Burn 3\. Koyaanisqatsi 4\. Samsara 5\. Baraka 6\. Vernon, Florida 7\. Art and Craft 8\. Black Panthers 9\. F for Fake 10\. Du Côté de la côte ------ ArchTypical Exit through the gift shop ------ daedalus2027 What a bleep do we know ------ gamapuna planet earth (both the parts) for me ------ daedalus2027 Zeitgeist ------ rainhacker 1\. Fire in the blood: It's about "battle between pharmaceutical companies and the global public health community over access to lower-cost AIDS drugs for Africa" [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_in_the_Blood_(2013_film)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_in_the_Blood_$2013_film$) 2\. Capitalism a Love Story: Questions unrestrained capitalism in the backdrop of 2008 financial crisis ------ _uze0 Here's my list of 10/10 documentaries: Biopics and Portraits: \- Kung Fu Elliot ([https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3228302/?ref_=rt_li_tt](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3228302/?ref_=rt_li_tt)) \- Listen to Me Marlon ([https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4145178/?ref_=rt_li_tt](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4145178/?ref_=rt_li_tt)) \- Man on Wire ([https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1155592/?ref_=rt_li_tt](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1155592/?ref_=rt_li_tt)) \- My Winnipeg ([https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1093842/?ref_=rt_li_tt](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1093842/?ref_=rt_li_tt)) \- A Gray State ([https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6794380/?ref_=rt_li_tt](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6794380/?ref_=rt_li_tt)) \- Happy People: A Year in the Taiga ([https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1683876/?ref_=rt_li_tt](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1683876/?ref_=rt_li_tt)) \- Valley Uprising ([https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3784160/?ref_=rt_li_tt](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3784160/?ref_=rt_li_tt)) \- You've Been Trumped ([https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1943873/?ref_=rt_li_tt](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1943873/?ref_=rt_li_tt)) Environmental: \- Cowspiracy: The Sustainability Secret ([https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3302820/?ref_=rt_li_tt](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3302820/?ref_=rt_li_tt)) \- The Cove ([https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1313104/?ref_=rt_li_tt](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1313104/?ref_=rt_li_tt)) \- Chasing Coral ([https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6333054/?ref_=rt_li_tt](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6333054/?ref_=rt_li_tt)) \- Virunga ([https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3455224/?ref_=rt_li_tt](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3455224/?ref_=rt_li_tt)) Crime: \- Cartel Land ([https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4126304/?ref_=rt_li_tt](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4126304/?ref_=rt_li_tt)) \- The Act of Killing ([https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2375605/?ref_=rt_li_tt](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2375605/?ref_=rt_li_tt)) \- The Culture High ([https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1778338/?ref_=rt_li_tt](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1778338/?ref_=rt_li_tt)) \- The Jinx: The Life and Deaths of Robert Durst ([https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4299972/?ref_=rt_li_tt](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4299972/?ref_=rt_li_tt)) \- West of Memphis ([https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2130321/?ref_=rt_li_tt](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2130321/?ref_=rt_li_tt)) \- How to Make Money Selling Drugs ([https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1276962/?ref_=rt_li_tt](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1276962/?ref_=rt_li_tt)) \- The Fear of 13 ([https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5083702/?ref_=rt_li_tt](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5083702/?ref_=rt_li_tt)) \- Brother's Keeper ([https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0103888/?ref_=rt_li_tt](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0103888/?ref_=rt_li_tt)) \- Auschwitz: The Nazis and the 'Final Solution' ([https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0446610/?ref_=rt_li_tt](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0446610/?ref_=rt_li_tt)) Reflecting on Life and Death: \- Given ([https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4890452/?ref_=rt_li_tt](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4890452/?ref_=rt_li_tt)) \- Extremis ([https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5538078/?ref_=rt_li_tt](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5538078/?ref_=rt_li_tt)) \- Touching the Void ([https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0379557/?ref_=rt_li_tt](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0379557/?ref_=rt_li_tt)) \- Attention: A Life in Extremes ([https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2846628/?ref_=rt_li_tt](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2846628/?ref_=rt_li_tt)) Society: \- Israel vs Israel ([https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1753960/?ref_=rt_li_tt](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1753960/?ref_=rt_li_tt)) \- Inside Job ([https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1645089/?ref_=rt_li_tt](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1645089/?ref_=rt_li_tt)) \- The Overnighters ([https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3263996/?ref_=rt_li_tt](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3263996/?ref_=rt_li_tt)) ------ datavirtue Forks over Knives. Details the findings of an extensive string of studies on the consumption of animal protien. What is not covered in this particular documentary was how the US government was about to change thier food recommendations in 1977 but was stopped by agricultural power brokers invested in meat production. Uphill battle ever since but we can see exploding diabetes, heart disease, and cancer--all demonstrated as controllable I the studies talked about in this documentary. Changed my life.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Apple’s iOS 6 Maps app already showing signs of improvements - barredo http://www.bgr.com/2012/10/05/apple-maps-fix-ios-6-improvements-begin/ ====== fjorder Google (and others) probably have enough patents to give Apple some real headaches here, but I sincerely hope their response is to innovate quicker in order to stay ahead instead. That being said, it's going to take time as well as money for Apple to even marginally close the gap. Google has a tremendous lead when it comes to data. e.g. Just having a place on your map arguably isn't enough when Google probably has a dozen user reviews just for your local neighborhood dry- cleaner! No doubt that's why Apple initially tried to ram their maps down all iOS users' throats.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Ask HN: Please review my idea and holding page - jonp I'm looking to launch http://www.birthdaysudoku.com/ in a couple of weeks.<p>I've learned a lot from this community and I'd be very grateful for comments on my holding page, and any other thoughts you may have.<p>I'm also hoping that posting this will force me into launching this month. ====== edparcell Hi Jon, Interesting idea. Seems like it'd be a good novelty gift for my family to get me for example. I guess you are already thinking this way, but it seems fairly natural to offer a birthday card, and maybe a range of other geek products around this. On the product itself, it might be good to do alphabetical sudokus also - for 16x16 sudokus this could lead to some interesting message possibilities perhaps? Also, are there any other puzzles that lend themselves to this sort of customization - wordsearch perhaps? I guess those are the two ways I'd consider expanding on an appealing starting idea. Good luck, and let us know when you launch. Best, Ed. ~~~ jonp Thanks Ed. Yes, I'd started looking at eg Cafe Press for a way to produce physical goods like cards, mugs, mouse mats etc. I hadn't thought of letters or the 16x16 versions. Also I guess if I do word- search and other puzzles then there's potentially enough to print a custom book(let) of puzzles. Thanks again for the feedback. ------ SHOwnsYou Interesting idea, the first thing that jumped out at me was that you might want to consider making a page that US users redirect to. In your sample, you have the date listed as 31-7-1965. This is not how Americans display dates. Americans use 7-31-1965. I generalized only saying American's use 7-31-1965. That may be a standard date convention for all of non-Europe, but I have no idea. Don't want the important message to get lost in any confusion. ~~~ jonp Thanks for your comment. I'm allowing for different date formats (dd-mm-yyyy, mm-dd-yyyy, yyyy-mm-dd) when making the puzzles. But it hadn't occurred to me that seeing a non- American date on the home page could be off-putting to Americans. I guess I could try to recognize where people are from and show a location- specific example. Or maybe it's best to pick an ambiguous date ie one that works under both conventions. eg 12-5-1965 should do it. Thanks again. ~~~ jonp Now updated to 12-5-1965. ------ jonp Clickable link: <http://www.birthdaysudoku.com/>	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Are you tired of being google's guinea pig? - yaacovtp ====== yaacovtp First it was the links for different search types bouncing all other the page. Then there was the automatic customized searches. What if I wanted to see what the general public sees? Now I'm getting news links 4 or 5 results down the search page. I don't care how if their algorithms are better the anyone else's. Functionally, it's broken for me. What's your favorite non google powered search engine? ~~~ rksprst Right now its yahoo for me. Switched 2 days ago (from google) after getting fed up with the way google handles privacy and how it seems also its new products just want more and more information about me. Pretty soon google would want to map my DNA as well. ~~~ bls You switched from Google to Yahoo for privacy reasons? Yahoo! has already demonstrated their total lack of ethics regarding privacy by helping the Chinese jail thought criminals. Whereas, Google has designed all its systems and its business models to ensure that it does not need to cooperate with horrible regimes. Also, Yahoo! happily shared its users' information with the U.S. government upon request (when not even legally obligated to do so), whereas Google went to court to fight for its users' privacy. ~~~ rksprst I'm a lot less worried about having my information given away to the government than I am of a company trying to create a database of all the data in the world. Which is what google seems to want to do. Yes, yahoo has given away information before (in China). But I'd still rather switch to a company that does not want to collect every single piece of data about me (be it my email, rss feeds, search history, or even the files on my computer - google desktop search). ~~~ MobileDigit You're fine with information being given to thieves and murderers but not to a company that wants to improve your experience so you'll voluntarily give it more money?	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Ask HN: If a Bitcoin crash was to occur, what would it entail? - bhouston ====== SirLJ "Only when the tide goes out do you discover who's been swimming naked" \- Warren Buffett Also don't forget our IRS friends, every time you sell a crypto coin to cash out or buy another, you owe Uncle Sam a big junk of your profits - for a holdings less than a year, more likely equal to your income tax bracket and if you think you are anonymous, think again and consider how likely your exchange is to turn all their records to the US government... ~~~ thiagooffm this is applied to the 1 year period from my understanding, if bitcoin went down 50% based on the value you had invested in the beginning of the year, you pay nothing of taxes, because you had no profit. and you only pay taxes if you sell it. i frequently trade in the stock market and that's how it works there though. ~~~ SirLJ Exactly, if you held it for one year or less, it is a considered a short-term gain and is taxed as ordinary income. Depending on your tax bracket for 2017, that could range from a tax rate of 10 percent to 39.6 percent. [https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/30/bitcoin-investors-beware- the...](https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/30/bitcoin-investors-beware-the-irs- wants-its-cut-and-you-may-not-know-it.html) ------ debacle The difference in Bitcoin is that it is relatively insulated from other securities. A bitcoin crash would have little to no impact on anything but other coins, and even then the impact would likely be minimal for more stable coins. ~~~ dabockster And, if Bitcoin did crash for good, another coin would probably take its place. ------ sharemywin it crashes all the time. [https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-11-16/bitcoin-h...](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-11-16/bitcoin- hits-record-as-monday-s-29-plunge-fades-to-memory) ~~~ muzani it crashes all the time [https://99bitcoins.com/bitcoinobituaries/](https://99bitcoins.com/bitcoinobituaries/) ------ paulpauper same as any other crash: a lot of people would lose unrealized gains and some would have unrealized losses. the use of leverage could exacerbate the fall	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Ask HN: Is as Password Necessary? - KingOfCoders I thought about a new website and wondered if a password is necessary or I can just send you a code if you want to log in? If I have a standard password forgotten feature where an email is send with a code then does having a password in the first place add any more security?<p>For those who want more security I could add FIDO2. ====== mtmail We used to do that with a classifieds website. Not a code, but a link to click for authentication. To be honest many users didn't understand the concept. Emails can be 1-2 minutes or sometimes more delayed. Users asked where they can reset their password. By being different we added confusion. I worked, 1000s of users signed up (free service), but we spend more time than we think justified on support emails. ~~~ KingOfCoders Thanks, very good points.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Fear of Spiders Can Develop Before Birth - mariorz http://www.livescience.com/animals/fear-of-spiders-100218.html ====== hopeless This is the previous study that was cited in the article: <http://phobias.about.com/od/research/a/snakeandspidpho.htm> (I'm sure I read it in the dead-tree version on the New Scientist but can't find it now). What's interesting is that the children simply paid more attention to spider/snake-like shapes rather than actually fear them. This seems to have been the case with both of my children who have been fascinated by spiders from an early age and will spot them from across the room. I encourage the curiosity and discourage the fear (we're in Ireland after all). For some reason, I think it's more plausible that we have a genetic predisposition to pay attention to spiders/snakes rather than the emotional fear response. Perhaps that distinction isn't present in crickets? ------ bpd1069 This is awesome stuff, esp. in regards to epigenetics. wiki: "In biology, and specifically genetics, epigenetics is the study of inherited changes in phenotype (appearance) or gene expression caused by mechanisms other than changes in the underlying DNA sequence, hence the name epi- (Greek: επί- over, above) -genetics. These changes may remain through cell divisions for the remainder of the cell's life and may also last for multiple generations. However, there is no change in the underlying DNA sequence of the organism;[1] instead, non-genetic factors cause the organism's genes to behave (or "express themselves") differently.[2]" <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics> A further round of study would be exposure to a spider of female crickets and male crickets before pregnancy, and another would be to see if there are any lasting changes passed in successive generations. ------ nervechannel a). They didn't link to the study. Or if they did, not anywhere I could see. Inexcusable in 'science' journalism! b). Any control group on the babies to see if it's actually fear of spiders they learnt, or just fear? ~~~ mfukar Any control group on the babies to see if it's actually fear of spiders they learnt, or just fear? What would comprise the control group? Psychopath baby crickets? ~~~ streety I'm not sure what the cricket equivalent would be but in a mouse model open space and bright space anxiety tests would be a reasonable approach to understanding whether the anxiety is general or specific to spiders. ~~~ nervechannel Exactly. Something else scary that doesn't resemble a spider. ------ yhvh When your mother has spiders in her womb you have a right to be scared.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Why C# is not a good choice for web development? - afshinmeh http://afshinm.name/why-c-sharp-is-not-a-good-choice-for-web-development ====== Tomte "But replacing the new dll file will change other class and methods signature and logic, too." Only if you don't make a real bugfix release, but throw the bugfix together with whatever you happen to have on your development machine. Oh, and your "but in Python I can change a single file" leads to the exact problem, if you have continued development on that file. That's all so incredibly stupid and irresponsible that I'd be inclined to say that OP's company doesn't have a problem with C#, but with its total lack of competence and responsibility in general. What's frightening me even more is the number of "kudos" to that medium post. ~~~ sdlitwiller I agree, the number of kudos is alarming. Having worked with compiled and scripted languages I can say with confidence that there are pros and cons with each approach. Sometimes its easier to copy a single dll as opposed to a bunch of .js files, among other reasons. Either way you will want a clearly defined api that hides its implementation from whatever is consuming it. ------ prodigal_erik Deployment should involve upgrading the .rpm or .deb on your production servers, or failing over to new instances which already have them. To try and decide _which_ deployed files need to be replaced is very likely to leave you not actually knowing exactly which code you are running. Deployment process is never a good reason for choosing a language. Deployment can (must!) be automated and reproducible. Language choice is about hiring, development speed, rate of mistakes, and hardware cost for sufficient capacity. ------ dlanouette This article is full of FUD, and shows a very naive understanding of how to maintain and deploy software. The "problems" he talks about are caused by so many other problems he has (no version control, not knowing what's in production, making breaking changes as part of a small bug fix, not testing changes, etc, etc). And, his proposed fix - use a scripting language - would break too if he made a backwards-incompatible change. ------ mdpm I am simply frightened by this. Dependency freezing is a tenet of reproducible builds, reproducible builds a principle of engineering for any sort of reliability. This varies not a whit between interpreted or compiled languages. To extrapolate that to a massive generalisation like 'not good for web' is Not Even Wrong.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Sergey Brin's blog (?) - Mistone http://too.blogspot.com/ ====== rms >I now have the opportunity to adjust my life to reduce those odds (e.g. there is evidence that exercise may be protective against Parkinson's). You don't need a genetic test to know that excercise is incredibly healthy. ~~~ bootload _"... You don't need a genetic test to know that excercise is incredibly healthy. ..."_ But if you charge "X" dollars to screen people for say Alzheimer's, something they may get 20 years before symptoms arise? The current population is say 25M worldwide expected to rise to 81M by 2040 ~ <http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/2364899.htm> Though there are tests currently being trialled to test for beta amyloids in blood. ------ mixmax It appears to be the real deal: <http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-10045958-93.html> ------ bootload _"... My mother had always been haunted by Parkinson's because her aunt had suffered from it ..."_ A cheaper way to hunt for hereditary disease is to check your family tree for cause of death or symptoms. The only problem is if the disease has some sort of stigma attached it may be hidden. ------ brandonkm Can't wait for the cool personal life bits about the new plane him and larry brought, or the trip to outer space him and his buddies are about to go on, or how no one will ever make an algorithm better than the google search one. ------ andreyf I'm not sure how to avoid sounding insensitive, but it seems like an ad for his wife's company... ~~~ Mistone which is under investigation from the the CA Dept of Health, cant find the link but read it a few months ago. ~~~ russ We have been officially licensed by CA for maybe 3-4 weeks now. [http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/20/business/20gene.html?_r=2&...](http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/20/business/20gene.html?_r=2&ref=business&oref=slogin&oref=slogin) A lot changes in a few months ;-) ------ awt I hope he changes the color scheme. ~~~ ivank It just went from dark blue to cyan. ------ iigs Compare and contrast this to Steve Jobs + Apple's handling of Steve's cancer scare a few years ago. Fascinating. ~~~ dpapathanasiou Well, fakesergeybrin.com has already been registered, so that comparison is interesting in more ways than one. ------ byrneseyeview Had too.blogspot.com been unclaimed for that long? ~~~ hhm Or they simply claimed it somehow: being that Google owns Blogspot it shouldn't be very difficult to do that. ------ jmatt If you could have any blogspot name that you wanted... what would you choose? _While Google is a play on googol, too is a play on the much smaller number - two._ I'm not sure I would choose too - soooo many other choices. It's memorable and short which is about all you can ask from a name. I wonder if he is going to acquire the related domains (too.??? etc). I guess now-a-days that isn't required. But if you are a multi-billionare and starting your own blog... why not? ------ jamesjyu It's refreshing to see a totally off the cuff and candid looking blog from such an important figure. Doesn't seem to have the multiple layers of PR and Marketing here. ------ jobeirne This is gonna be the best Dan Lyons site ever. ------ agentbleu there is some evidence to suggest parkinson's is caused by bacteria: [http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2001/12/1...](http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2001/12/12/minocycline.aspx) ~~~ agentbleu better link <http://hubpages.com/hub/Antibiotics-for-Parkinsons> ------ _bn I wonder who will be the first to comment. ~~~ woodsier I commented, but it needs to be signed off by Sergey. ------ SarahToton Et tu, Sergey? Note: All one needs to succeed in life is a blogspot page named after an adverb. Other possibilities include: "indeed," "nonetheless," "meanwhile," and "obnoxiously."	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Orson Welles’ ‘Voodoo’ Macbeth - mr_golyadkin https://dangerousminds.net/comments/orson_welles_voodoo_macbeth_on_film ====== lisper I had the opportunity to attend a real voodoo ceremony in Togo (West Africa) a few years ago. It was a very interesting experience, and very hard to describe. You can find videos of them on Youtube. It consisted of a mixture of dancing, which at times got extremely energetic almost to the point of violence (blood was spilled), and weird magic tricks. For example, at one point the shaman buried a bag of broken glass in the ground which later was dug up again and had turned into a bag full of coins. It went on for a very long time. Despite the fact that there were was a substantial audience of Western tourists watching, it didn't feel like a performance. The participants were not focused on the audience at all. On a number of occasions, some of the dancers nearly collided with some audience members. If you ever get an opportunity to see an authentic non-touristified voodoo ceremony, I recommend it. I've never seen anything remotely like it before or since.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Play Button: a wearable, uneditable album - mrspeaker http://www.playbutton.co/ ====== egypturnash This is so close to being awesome. I threw this link to a musician friend of mine when it showed up on Metafilter a while back, and we felt like it was so ALMOST there. We felt like it wants to be cheaper, and wants to have a USB port so you can put the album you just paid $20 for into all your other devices. (Or a one- time use code to download it.) Then you can stick it on your backpack like any other button, maybe loan it to a friend you want to expose to the act. Either that or load them with a copy of the concert you just saw. $20 for an item only available at the merch table for a single tour isn't very different from t-shirts; having a physical record of the whole show would be pretty cool. But as something sold over the Internet for $20+shipping? It's cool but that's like twice the cost of a normal album. The form factor just feels like it wants to be an impulse buy, with impulse pricing. (And on the other hand... I just paid $3 for a digital download of the new Glitch Mob EP. But I could have spent up to $55 on it to acquire a poster, a T-shirt, and a vinyl copy along with my download. I could see a Deluxe Package that included a Playbutton. As a cool bauble for the True Fans with a really good cashflow, it's not so bad.) (There is a good chance that they're also so damn expensive because they're made in limited quantities, possibly by the same people who run the site. I drew a Tarot deck a couple years ago; you can get it now for $20 because I found a publisher who got it printed in China, but when I was making the things myself I charged $150 for them.) ------ ForrestN This will only work if they can cultivate collectors, either for their products specifically, or from the artists they work with. Because they take up so much space, they have to be something you'd want to show off. In other words, because they are obviously functionally deficient, there has to be some other mechanism to make them desirable. Obviously I can listen to an album all the way through on a small iPod, or better yet on the phone I'm already carrying. They could also achieve this via exclusivity: get small acts to release a new album only via this format for the first week, so people have to experience the album in order before it's on iTunes and everyone just buys the popular song. ~~~ ignifero Also it has to be un-rippable, which i don't think is even possible. ~~~ ForrestN I don't think so, the point wouldn't be to completely lock it down or something. The music would probably get on the internet, which is fine (to me, at least). But for most consumers who choose to buy music, they would have to choose between buying the "collectors edition" or waiting a week to get it on iTunes. ------ RodgerTheGreat Immediately reminded me of '1-bit Symphony': <http://www.1bitsymphony.com/> ~~~ eru Which seems much more awesome. ------ helipad Would be superb for: \- Museums \- Galleries \- Silent discos \- Selling on trains \- Sharing \- Free samples \- DJ mixes \- Children's stories ------ joss82 A low price would be crucial for the play button to really take off and become something bigger, badder than an interesting artistic experiment. $5 for a fully autonomous album anyone? ~~~ tdrgabi It's an interesting experiment. But aren't we already spoiled with mp3 players that can play gigs of music? Having to carry tens of "badges" and swap them every time you want to change the album will become a nuisance, when the novelty wears out. ~~~ antihero I think there's something to be said for rebelling against efficiency. ------ athst Seems like Urban Outfitters would be an obvious retailer to go approach with something like this. But I agree with others that the price is a little too high - I imagine that you'd want to collect these like some people collect vinyl, but since it's more of a novelty, something like $10 would be perfect. ------ ghotli Well I just think that website design is great ------ rgbrgb I really like this idea and it looks like they're getting cool artists. My problem with this is that it creates unnecessary trash but I suppose the same can be said for any band shwag. Anyone saying that this is too expensive to sell should see those books that Mt Eerie was selling for like 200$. I think they're probably sold out. Anyway, my point is that with a captive audience, something a bit more expensive and off the wall like this could work. Bands sell tshirts and vinyl for 20$ all the time. 8$ extra for something completely novel? Sure. ------ antihero I really like this idea, but $25? Ouch. Out of my price range. I think having a bunch of these clipped to your jacket would also be a nifty way to show off your music taste, too. ------ ZeroGravitas What does the power supply look like? I would have thought a standard micro- usb power input would make these better for distributing to others. ------ mootothemax I think this could be _huge_ after concerts, especially if combined with a recording of the performance the fans have just listened to. ~~~ jgroome My thoughts exactly. I can't see this being a big hit with retail music. The main use in my mind would be as PR tools, either sending promotional badges to journalists etc or as novelty items containing already released music to be sold at events. It's hard to think how else people would be willing to put down $15-$25 for something so unnecessary. Recording live concerts for release after the show, however, is something I've been interested in a long time. Given that track skipping isn't possible on a Play Button, you wouldn't have to slice the recording into tracks before release. I'd even be so bold as to say you could get these out on sale within half an hour of the concert finishing. For bigger concerts these would make a great souvenir and a decent source of income for artists. ------ exDM69 I hope that the music industry does not think that this is a cure for their problems with digital distribution. Having a separate optical medium for each album of music is wasteful enough (compared to storing the content digitally in your hard drive), but having a ROM chip, a DA converter, a headphone amplifier and a battery per album is insane waste of resources. ------ jellicle Cute. I think the main market is for promotional items - freebies, giveaways. Have to bring the price down as low as possible for that to take off. A regular button costs maybe 10-25 cents. ~~~ tmcw Why? What they're selling is not just the novelty, but the scarcity of an object. Treating these like talking greeting cards is like treating art as paper and ink. ~~~ jellicle It is novel. So novel, perhaps, that people won't be willing to pay a lot of money for it. Coin cell batteries won't last long playing albums, and are expensive to replace. The value proposition just isn't there for the end-user except for very limited novelty purposes. However, it might be there for people who essentially want to advertise their real product (perhaps a CD release, perhaps something else). Sell these at cost or give them away to promote your event or new album? I can see that. Oh, I see one of the news articles says rechargeable lithium battery. That's good for short-term usability, bad for cost. And it puts an absolute limit on the life of the item at about three years, when all lithium batteries die permanently and it won't be replaceable. "Hey kids, look what I found in the attic! This cool album from the 'teens, it's built right into a button! Let's see.... oh, darn, the battery is permanently dead and can't be replaced." {tosses into the trash} ~~~ jhuckestein The battery is rechargeable through the headphone jack. Quite ingenious actually. ------ DuqE Not read all comments, but a spelling mistake is obvious on the details images, that explains the button. It says it will turn on and of respectively. This should be off. That is all. Good product all the same. ------ rnernento I don't know that I see the point. Sure, buttons are cool but why not just carry buttons and the iphone/smartphone that already has all your music anyways... ------ matmann2001 Play Button: a despicable, unusable website ------ alexsherrick Damn these are pretty awesome... only problem is The Pains of Being Pure at Heart costs $24. A little much! ------ tcarnell That is a BRILLIANT IDEA! Such a great way to swap/share music with people too. I hope it takes off. ~~~ tcarnell It would be really great if the buttons had two headphone jacks for sharing with somebody... ~~~ noahlt "You’re much better off to take one of your earbuds out and put it in her ear. Then you’re connected with about two feet of headphone cable." \- Steve Jobs ([http://37signals.com/svn/posts/52-steve-jobs-just-put-it- in-...](http://37signals.com/svn/posts/52-steve-jobs-just-put-it-in-her-ear)) ------ dplakon really love this idea.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Our unpredictable and overburdened schedules are taking a toll on society - robtherobber https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/11/why-dont-i-see-you-anymore/598336/ ====== majos Can somebody reconcile this with statistics about TV watching, which suggest that people watch about 3-5 hours of TV/Netflix per _day_ [1]? A possible argument is that, as the article describes, time off is so unpredictable that scheduling time with other people is much harder than just turning on the TV. But if most people have hours of free time every day, it seems hard to believe that schedules don’t line up at least several times per month. Are these entertainment consumption statistics skewed by superusers who do nothing else or something? [1] [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Television_consumption](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Television_consumption) ~~~ fossuser I think TV, YouTube, or even Podcasts can trigger a similar mechanism to socialization, but without any of the risk that comes from interacting with real people. Speculating I'd guess that the low lift and reduced anxiety means more people get stuck in it as a local maximum even if they'd be happier otherwise. ~~~ K0SM0S I think you're looking in the right direction. Speaking from anecdotal experience with online communities, when idling or toying at home during their free time, people actually engage socially with friends through chats, networks, games — pick your entertainment drug. They're everything but alone, and it's genuinely real if limited cognitively compared to a real physical interaction. If you add voice chat to that, at the end of the day you really feel like you spent X hours with friend(s), there's just no other way to put it except for the physical location. It's almost a given to me that with appropriate videoconf wall-sized (real- world size) screens in all living rooms, we'd just "invite" friends this way most of the time unless the physical interaction was necessary. Less maintenance, less friction to just spend a cool quality hour. The 'effort' required to move out of your house is getting increasingly higher, your 'local maximum' would essentially converge to an actual maximum in a perfect virtual reality (of which the "80%" / good enough might be just around the next decade). ~~~ fossuser I haven't read it, but I think your example is closely related to the plot in The Machine Stops, which was pretty prescient. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Machine_Stops](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Machine_Stops) ~~~ darkerside It's amazing how old this story is. It feels so relevant even today ------ bonniemuffin I'd like to offer up the concept of the casual home-based "brunch" as the most effective way to spend quality time with your way-too-busy friends. This version of "brunch" happens at someone's house, from, say, noon to 5pm on a weekend day, and people do bring food, but it's a drop-in affair and not a sit-down meal, and showing up without food is also fine. The timeslot works for people with or without kids. Friends with gig economy or service industry jobs might have a shift that overlaps it, but a Lyft driver might be able to take a break and drop in, or a restaurant server might get a gap between the lunch and dinner shifts to come by. Hosting is easy because you've already set low expectations for providing food or entertainment; you're just providing some chairs with a roof over them. Do other people do this? Among my social circle, we have "brunch" probably once a month or so, attended by 15-20 people at various of our houses, and it strikes me as a useful social institution that everyone should have. ~~~ nikanj In Vancouver, somehow "brunch" has morphed to a massive obligation. Everyone should bring a dish, all the dishes are high effort, and people secretly hope to skip the whole thing so they don't have to get up at 7am to cook. Same with dinners parties too, and the only alternative seems to be placing the whole burden of cooking on the host. Whatever happened to just making a giant stew and someone bringing a few loaves of bread? ~~~ mrec There seems to be an obvious opportunity for upscale takeout food delivery here. Much easier to split a bill than cooking chores. ~~~ leetcrew isn't this called "catering"? I know some wealthy people who will often have catered food delivered (or prepared on premises) if they're having more than a couple people over and don't feel like cooking. this is also what my office does when they give us free lunch. I think the economics work out in a way where the per-head cost is pretty bad for 10-20 people, but reasonable for ~100 or more. ~~~ mrec I thought catering involved things like waiters or at least servers. Seems excessive for a dinner party. ~~~ leetcrew I think there are different tiers of service that are all called catering. when we get "catered" lunch at our office, they usually just put out a buffet of prepared food and we line up and take what we want. the catering staff will replace trays of food when they're empty and occasionally take your plate if you're finished eating, but that's about it. no idea what it costs per head. no matter how you slice it, having other people prepare good food (ie, not pizza and wings) for you is relatively expensive. if you expect the food to come to you, it either has to be limited to dishes that travel well and don't suffer from sitting over heat for an hour, or you have to pay even more for people to cook it on location. ------ legitster I don't like the explanation that everyone "back in the day" had the same schedule. Service jobs still existed back then. Upper middle class (white) people worked 9-5. Women stayed home. The example used was literally the Beaver family. Even my other 9-5 friends office coworkers are not making time for their friends. Something bigger is definitely at play. ~~~ non-entity > Even my other 9-5 friends office coworkers are not making time for their > friends. Personally, I haven't had any friends since graduating HS and I dont have the time to make new ones. For one, I'm pretty transient, moving every few years to take a new job as thats the only way to get a significant pay increase (I might finally settle down when and if I find a job I can enjoy somewhat) ~~~ SomaticPirate It's interesting to hear that "not having time to make friends" is associated with career growth. All the high achievers I have met specifically carve out time for networking and the best networking usually depends on having an actual personal connection with someone. Even in tech, I have found most of my jobs by invitation which has eased the stress of the interviewing and having to get a foot in the door. Are you finding the opposite to be true? ~~~ non-entity Not really, I suppose my definition of "friend" just must be stricter as I don't consider most people I end up networking with the really be friends. More of acquaintances ------ ghostcluster If you look at the actual data, average hours worked has gone _down_ steadily in the US over the past 200 years: > 1830 69.1 hours per week > 1880 60.7 > 1929 50.6 > 1988 42.4 > As the twentieth century ended there was nothing resembling a shorter hours > “movement.” The length of the workweek continues to fall for most groups — > but at a glacial pace. Some Americans complain about a lack of free time but > the vast majority seem content with an average workweek of roughly forty > hours — channeling almost all of their growing wages into higher incomes > rather than increased leisure time. [https://eh.net/encyclopedia/hours-of-work-in-u-s- history/](https://eh.net/encyclopedia/hours-of-work-in-u-s-history/) In my own estimation, spending time with friends may be less emphasized in the current era due to the increased role of social media and the personal atomization it unintentionally prmootes. ~~~ nickthemagicman Yeah but for what quality of life? Wages haven't increased while inflation has gone up. So just fundamentally this means that the amount of work to maintain the same standard of living has increased. So this statement/study is missing one or more variables. ~~~ akavi > wages haven't increased while inflation has gone up ...That's not true, at all? Adjusted for inflation, wages have _at worst_ been flat for _certain_ sectors. The vast majority of people have seen _inflation adjused_ wage increases. ~~~ dpc_pw The official inflation numbers are useless. Cost of goods is flat, sure (after you include the hedonistic adjustment gimmick), but cost of other's people time has skyrocketed (daycare, teachers, doctors, waiter, plubmer etc.) ------ sharadov Moved to the Bay Area from LA couple years back. The Bay area seems like everyone is perpetually overworked and stressed. I take my kids for soccer/basketball lessons, and standing on the sidelines, hope to chat up with parents, but they are glued to their phones or horror of horrors ( some have their laptops open and coding!). LA was so much more chill, just easier to chat up with people, invite people over spontaneously and make friends. ~~~ wutbrodo For another anecdotal data point, I grew up in LA, moved here as a teen, and have spent my career here with regular visits back to LA, and haven't found that to be the case. Leisure is so much _easier_ in San Francisco that it's hard to avoid it... Every resident is a maximum ten minute walk away from a park, there are constant awesome free events, and your life isn't fully governed by the dictates of constant traffic between any two points in the city. I've spent my time in the city itself but I've had plenty of exposure to different parts of the Bay and, controlling for the fact that it's less dense, much of the same applies. The sheer success of the metro economy relative to LA over the last ten years means that there are a lot of people who moved here with dollar signs in their eyes, and I don't doubt that that's shifted the culture a bit, but it's very easy to avoid IME. Our data points do differ in that it sounds like you're primarily around families and I'm around single people or young couples. Perhaps what you're describing is true for that subset of the population. ~~~ faanghacker Maybe he was in bay area but not SF itself. A common ambiguity when talking about the area ~~~ wutbrodo Right, I alluded to that in my comment, though it wasn't the focus. ------ cryoshon >Perlow describes how she developed a solution to white-collar peonage at Boston Consulting Group. She called her strategy “PTO”: predictable time off. It didn’t seem like a big deal. Teams would pull together to arrange one weeknight off per member per week. what a nightmare to read. i wish i could say i have never worked with any company so apocalyptically dysfunctional as to need a policy like this. after 5PM on a weekday and for 100% of the weekend, the default expectation should be that 100% of teammates are not working and are unreachable, even if there is an "emergency". yes, even if it means you or the team is blocked from doing something because you need their input. yes, even if it is "just one tiny question". yes, that means that clients will get mad sometimes. the team doesn't need to be pulling together to ensure that one person's time off on a weeknight is not interrupted. the team needs to be pulling together to tell management that work stops at 5, every night. then, they need to follow their own rule and be unreachable by 5:01 PM, as a group. this is a problem of labor against management, and the solution is for labor to organize aggressively and set ground rules rather than being picked to pieces by their own sense of industriousness and their desire to please authority by working longer than required. ~~~ dkersten Completely agree. After a few years as a startup founder (ie: in super high stress environment), I now no longer work anywhere where time outside of contractual work hours are not 100% mine, I don't do "on call" anymore and won't work anywhere that contractually asks me to work longer than normal for my country hours or on weekends. This means that I leave/stop as soon as the day ends and am not reachable for work stuff. Yes, I will make the occasional exception when it really is an emergency, but in return I expect that the company makes occasional exceptions for me when I need some flexibility. Its been much less stressful. ~~~ johnsimer I'm about to make this transition I'm kind of worried that my skills will atrophy because I'll be working less, but I almost dont care at this point, because I'll finally have a social life ~~~ watwut You will atrophy when you never learn new things. Time off does not prevent you to learn. ~~~ dkersten Yes, it can even give you more opportunities that you otherwise would have missed. ------ jjpwojwpwf Articles like these make me very pessimistic for the future. Not because the article is incorrect, but because the fact this has become such a widespread issue is like a bad joke. If you told me in the 90's that people's work schedules would become so unpredictable that families would start dissolving, I would have called you dramatic. But now, it's happening to basically everyone I know, and only in the last few years have I broken free from that myself. Every clever scheduling algorithm or trick that people try applying to "fix" this situation feels like a band-aid solution. It begs the question, WHY are so many people taking jobs that they know will destroy their relationships with their family and friends? That immediately takes the subject to the unpleasant conversation of "rent", which has shot up dramatically all over the world in the last few decades. I'm honestly no longer convinced that the systems we have for property acquisition nowadays are actually any better than homesteading. We pay taxes so the government can defend property claims; except 90% of people don't own much at all, so we are basically paying for rich people's security guards. ~~~ macawfish Rentier capitalism results in artificial scarcity. With rentier schemes and behavior dominating aspects of life so fundamental as housing and health care, conditions of artificial scarcity have stretched their tendrils into the fabric of our wellbeing: into our mental, spiritual, social health, into our very sense of having the time to freely work in pursuit of healthy lives. And the most difficult thing of all is that this is all a wicked pyramid scheme, one that is hard to break without seeming violence against people we care about. We are dependent. ~~~ ip26 What artificial scarcity do you have in mind, bearing in mind that there is a true scarcity (or at least fixed supply) of land close to desirable places to live? ~~~ CalRobert Try buying a house in the sunset and turning it in to flats. ~~~ macawfish Try buying a house and selling it for a similar or lower price without walking away in debt. ------ matwood People just have more competing for their time. Endless streaming, phone usage, video games, etc... not only compete with each other, but also with things like hanging out with friends. It used to be that there really wasn't much to do so for better or worse you hung out with people who were close to you geographically. Now, it's much easier to eschew people who are physically close to you, but may not share your exact ideals, for people who you genuinely want to interact with. I'm not sure if this is universally a bad or good thing. It's just different than before. ~~~ CapricornNoble >>>I'm not sure if this is universally a bad or good thing. One of the side-effects of hanging out with physically-proximate but non- optimized-personality people is that you learn to compromise. You learn to build productive relationships despite differences in temperament and interests. I think that is largely lost in the digital age. It's part of why we see such uncompromising partisanship in political movements. People are so accustomed to interacting with exactly the sort of opinions/viewpoints they want to experience online that they don't know how to handle anything contrarian when they are in meat-space. ~~~ matwood This is a great point I hadn't considered. Interacting with people you do not agree with not only causes one to learn to compromise, but also softens extreme viewpoints. ------ CalRobert This would be an argument in favour of the oft-maligned rules about opening hours in the UK, France, etc. (it can be a challenge to buy DIY goods in France on a Sunday, for instance). If you have the same time off as people without a 9-5 M-F job it might be easier to befriend a few of them and aid interclass social cohesion. ~~~ MrMorden If it's a good thing to ban retail from opening on Sunday, it's also a good thing to do the same to restaurants, transit, and everything excepting emergency services. The UK only restricts retail over 280 m^2, and only in England and Wales—a Scot-lead UK government blocked deregulation in 2006, and more recently Scots did it again. France is no different; its closing laws also apply only to retail, plus they exempt tourist areas. Germany's exempt train stations. Israel comes closest (at least for Jewish employees), but still allows more than the minimum necessary employment on Saturday; and assuming Benny Gantz forms a government in two weeks the faction who want to impose their religion on everyone else will lose more control. ------ michaelbrooks And this doesn't just affect America, but I think it affects every country. I never see my friends any more and very rarely see my family. It's a really sad state of affairs, but I'm just working to make a living so I can hopefully one day own a house and go travelling with my wife. ~~~ ghego1 Be aware that if you live for tomorrow and that tomorrow never comes, you might end up regretting not having lived for today :-) ~~~ haskellandchill yea and if you live for today you could be in the street tomorrow ~~~ kibwen Though sadly there are a fair number of folks who both live for tomorrow and also fear ending up in the street tomorrow. ------ olah_1 Most people I know would say that they don't "have friends". It's humorous, but I take that at face value. Because it's certainly my experience as well. ------ SmellyGeekBoy I see my friends almost every night at the gym. We meet up down the pub and have nights out more than once per month too. Often we'll converge on someone's house for a barbecue or just to drink wine and chat shit. We all work at least full time and some of us run businesses (myself included). I honestly can't relate to this. I'm 35, for what it's worth. ------ ptah productivity increases were meant to help us earn more by working less. what went wrong ~~~ pochamago It's not like you can't work fewer hours and have all the things greater productivity offered. But it's also created even more things you can get by continuing to work more, and most people do not feel satisfied living without them ~~~ lm28469 I'd work 30% of what I do now if I could. The truth is that no one will ever employ you at 30%. ~~~ leetcrew first of all this is an incredibly white-collar centric claim. shift work pays by the hour for however many hours you work (and possibly overtime), and most of these jobs don't expect you to work full-time. in fact, they might prefer that you don't. you're probably not gonna get an aeron chair and a mechanical switch keyboard though. even in software, there are people working less than full-time. there was a thread about this just the other day. ~~~ lm28469 > first of all this is an incredibly white-collar centric claim Well yeah obviously I wouldn't be able to live working @30% doing food delivery or cleaning bathrooms... > there are people working less than full-time. There are some for sure but so far I haven't found a company accepting my requests. It's probably highly dependent on the country/industry. ------ pastor_elm This article misses a fundamental point. Historically, people have liked to socialize by drinking, smoking, gambling, gossiping, gaming in some way, etc. But those activities have become too risqué for the modern professional class. Socializing has to be inclusive and bland and you have to put in a ton of effort. ~~~ CapricornNoble >>>But those activities have become too risqué for the modern professional class. Socializing has to be inclusive and bland and you have to put in a ton of effort. How much of that is due to demographic changes in the _Western_ professional class? Asia still knows how to mix business with pleasure. [https://theaseanpost.com/article/deal-making-asias-escort- ba...](https://theaseanpost.com/article/deal-making-asias-escort-bars- thriving) [https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2019/01/23/national/social...](https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2019/01/23/national/social- issues/metoo-dealmaking-escort-bars-thrives-corporate-east-asia-including- japan/) [https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB121268021240548769](https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB121268021240548769) ------ derision I see my friends all the time. We are very busy, but we make time. If you care, you can make time. ~~~ war1025 A thing we've found very helpful is if something ends up working out well time / place-wise, just suggest doing the same thing again next week. It's like building any new habit. You have to be very intentional about it to start with, then it becomes easy. ------ bettyx1138 i work a predictable 40 hours a week schedule but it's corporate, conformist malaise that's killing me. ------ rayiner > Experiments like this one have given social engineering a bad name. What a remarkable understatement. ------ BadassFractal On that note, any hobbies / pastimes that you're passionate about that actually lead to more time with friends and new serendipitous connections? ------ rmah LOL, this is just called getting older. As you get older, it gets harder to make new friends, harder to see your existing friends. I suspect it's always been this way. ~~~ ghaff My first suspicion upon reading this was that some writer or editor observed that they weren't getting together with friends as much as they used to and spun a story with some plausible theories and anecdotes out of it. The real answer may be as simple as they got a bit older, people they know got busy with partners, family, kids, etc. and tend not to be available on random nights and weekends. I'm willing to believe that there are meta-trends which have caused shifts in how and how much people socialize in addition to this but I'd need to be convinced. ~~~ luckydata No, I come from a country where having friends is not strange at any age. The US are weird and can't put my finger on it but I never felt so detached. I will definitely leave when I'm done working, I hate the lifestyle here, it's so hollow and boring. ~~~ solean The US is a big place. You would have a different experience in Georgia than you would in SF. ~~~ luckydata I lived in California and Michigan. In most of the ways that matter it's not that different. ------ joewrong give them a call ------ Reschi I had a good childhood and decent teenage years with very few but really good and precious friends, those memories will forever stay as a warm bonfire in my heart at which i can rest during whatever coldness i might face in reality. In my view as a Zoomer, barely seeing the people you treasure anymore is just a part of being an adult, you have to go out there and face the world with everything you got and sometimes you meet good people on your road with which you can share a moment with before you have to head out again. That's just life. TLDR: man up ~~~ sudosteph The world is worthless. "Everything you got" is usually not enough. Good people are hard to come by. Treasure those precious friends of yours. They're actual people who care about you. They will have your back when memories can't. And sometimes you'll have to inconvenience yourself to have their backs too. _That_ is life. Or at least a life that is worth living.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
The Power of Mechanical Turk - mittermayr http://mittermayr.tumblr.com/post/12783989865/the-power-of-mturk ====== antonioe This is actually in violation with Mturks TOS. You cannot ask for personally identifiable information. They could ban your Amazon account. ~~~ mittermayr really? oh man, those TOS are killing me. let me check that... thanks for telling me! ~~~ pavel_lishin You could ask people to remove personally identifiable information (names, phones, etc.) and inform them that if they'd like to upload their full resume, they're welcome to at the full site. ~~~ mittermayr yeah, that sounds like a much better approach even. thanks man!	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Books and Music That Make You Dumb - iamwil http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2009/02/27/books-and-music-that-make-you-dumb/?mod=yhoofront ====== tptacek Hello, selection bias! There are books that make you dumber than not having reported reading any books at all? How about, there are books and music that correlate with being underprivileged, and being the likely product of a crappy school system? ~~~ tlb Presumably, most of the effect is due to socioeconomic correlation and I'm sure Virgil understands that. It's interesting how big the correlation is. I might have expected only a few percent WRT music. I want to see the correlation between Ayn Rand books and number of friends. ~~~ Radix I agree. This quote from him makes it explicit. “Of course there is the whole correlation is not causation thing, but, I mean, duh,” ~~~ mynameishere The "but" seems to imply that he nonetheless thinks that intelligence is effecting taste. I don't know. I've been shocked by some relatively intelligent people with atrocious taste in things, but it wouldn't be a shocker if the idiots really did like "Lil Wayne" because they're idiots. I mean, jesus fucking christ: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owwSHg1fivM> ~~~ scott_s I read it in the opposite way: it's so obvious that this is just a correlation and not causation that he feels silly explicitly stating it. ------ carterschonwald The website seems to be down, are there any mirrors available? The article title seems to be linkbait, the interviewer explicitly mentions that correlation isn't causation ~~~ chris11 Mirrors Music:[http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_j0_WBUT8_cw/R89cubH01_I/AAAAAAAAAD...](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_j0_WBUT8_cw/R89cubH01_I/AAAAAAAAADg/uS2GmyCaH-o/s1600-h/musicthatmakesyoudumb) Books:[http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_j0_WBUT8_cw/R89cgrH01-I/AAAAAAAAAD...](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_j0_WBUT8_cw/R89cgrH01-I/AAAAAAAAADY/_aUS3tqara8/s1600-h/booksthatmakeyoudumb)	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
How a Boeing Sales Flop Became the World's Hottest Secondhand Jetliner - jwegan http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-09-04/how-boeing-sales-flop-became-world-s-hottest-secondhand-jetliner ====== sandworm101 The 717 is also one of the few large jets readily converted for gravel runways, giving it a long future in northern operations. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravelkit](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravelkit) ~~~ Turing_Machine The upside is that the engines are up higher, making them less prone to ingest gravel. The downside (for northern operations) is that they're perfectly positioned to ingest ice coming off the wings. I think there was at least one MD-80 crash caused by that. ~~~ iso8859-1 [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavian_Airlines_Flight_7...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavian_Airlines_Flight_751) ------ kunai The 717 is actually not an original Boeing or McDonnell Douglas design; it's a refinement of a very old DC-9 airframe from the 60s massively upgraded with modern avionics and modern systems. The DC-9s (and later, the MD-80/90s) were very well-engineered aircraft, and the fact that their core airframe designs are still in operation some five decades later is a testament to how sound Douglas' original engineering and design methodology was. ~~~ redthrowaway You'd have to think though that a frame built long before CAD and long before you could stress test member components digitally would be much heavier for the same strength (or weaker for the same weight) than a modern airframe which could be min-maxed to high hell before a single sheet of aluminum was stamped. ~~~ meatysnapper The Mig-25 was mostly build from steel. Steel! Good engineering can be done without the aid of a computer. ~~~ jandrese It was also built with the philosophy that it doesn't really matter what you build the aircraft from as long as the engine is big enough. Of course this hurt its fuel efficiency, but in some ways this was a good thing. The mission it was designed for (intercepting supersonic bombers) doesn't require the plane to loiter and the short range meant it would be difficult to defect with. ~~~ speeder Is a steel plane harder to shoot down than an aluminum plane? Or it makes no difference because the fuselage has to be thin? ~~~ meatysnapper They would have built it from titanium but at titanium welding hadn't been figured out too well then. The Alfa sub hulls were done with plutonium rods if I remember right! ~~~ mjevans As I /really/ don't want to search those terms in order to confirm it... I'm just going to point out that it seems like meatysnapper is saying: Alfa sub hulls were done (, welded using,) plutonium (welding) rods; according to their memory. Not, as another reply speculates, made out of plutonium rods (which sounds silly from all sorts of perspectives). ------ russell Back when I flew regularly the MD-80 and derivatives where my favorite planes to fly because of 5 across rows with wider seats than the 6 abreast 737 which is like flying in a cattle car. My least favorite for long haul trips was the 777. Twelve hours where the seat armrest would go up only part way was too much. It made it very difficult to take advantage of adjacent vacant seats or just cuddle with my wife. ~~~ thrownaway2424 Man, I HATE the MD-80 and the 717 and every other plane with body-mounted engines. There's always a beat frequency between the two engines and that's ok for the first couple hours but eventually it drives me crazy. Would be nice if they could somehow lock the engine speed perfectly. ~~~ sshanky This is also something I remember well. I thought they had some way of locking them to the same speed. ------ guard-of-terra No wonder turkmenian airlines failed to respond. Those are the sort of guys who have a form screenshot in place of ticket reservation form. An image. ~~~ jen729w One of the few two-star airlines in the world! [http://www.airlinequality.com/ratings/2-star-airline- ratings...](http://www.airlinequality.com/ratings/2-star-airline-ratings/) The only one-star is, unsurprisingly, North Korea's airline. ~~~ hga Well, it's got plenty of company, including First World ... Ryanair, about which I've heard little good, except of course the price (no at fault accidents, but they're cutting it fine with fuel). ~~~ jen729w I'll let you know on Monday - I'm flying with them for the first time, BRS- DUB. I live in Australia and people like to complain about the low-cost airlines there but, really, until you've travelled on Europe's low-cost carriers you haven't seen anything. ~~~ hga So how was the experience? ------ afterburner "global demand has outstripped supply since Delta started assembling a large and growing fleet in 2012, taking advantage of favorable rental terms and a drop in jet-kerosene prices that makes older planes attractive. “They’re kind of the market-maker,” said Robert Agnew, president and chief executive officer of aviation consultant Morten Beyer & Agnew Inc. “If Delta weren’t there, the airplane might be struggling.”" That's the core of the story. It could have been some other model instead. It'd be interesting to know what the circumstances were behind Delta picking the 717. ~~~ raverbashing It might have been a different model, but it is not obvious which one would it be That one segment has some contenders: fokker 100, MD80 (big with AA), even older 737 models in that seat range But I guess Delta made that model work for them ~~~ ubernostrum AA is in the process of retiring its MD-80s. Between their fleet of 737s, the A320-family craft they got in the US Airways merger, and the A319s and A321s they have on order, the Mad Dog's days are (thankfully) numbered. ------ biggio "The only one that’s sitting idle and not earmarked for another carrier is a Turkmenistan Airlines plane in temporary storage" I don't get it. Why would you park an airplane idle? ~~~ smackfu It might make sense for a small airline to order a spare plane, just in case it's needed at some point. Especially if that plane model matches their flight profile really well, but also had a small production run so it would be difficult to lease a replacement. And if Boing really wants to get sales of the plane to make it look like a success, there might be a sweet price for that extra plane. And since plane age is measured in takeoff/landing cycles, a plane that is sitting in storage isn't really aging. ~~~ phillc73 Aeroplane age is generally measured in total hours flown. Turbine engine life is measure in a combination of cycles and operating hours. A piston engine aeroplane has nothing measured in takeoff/landing cycles, although it is good practice to record this information on the Maintenance Release. ~~~ engi_nerd There's no one measure for aircraft age. Flight hours, takeoff/landing cycles, and pressurization cycles are all measures that tell you different things. The program I work on tracks flight hours, engine operating hours, and takeoffs/landings. ~~~ hga Many of us might remember the miraculous Aloha Airlines Flight 243, a 737 bought new by the airline in 1969, which in 1988 after 35,496 flight hours, but over 89,680 takeoff and landing cycles, lost 1/3 of its top fuselage and one flight attendant (it did a lot of short flights between the islands see [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aloha_Airlines_Flight_243](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aloha_Airlines_Flight_243)). Per the Conclusion of the Wikipedia article: _Under current FAA regulations for the Boeing 737 (line number 291 and prior) established in the 2010s, this airframe would have had to be permanently withdrawn from service after 34,000 flight cycles or 34,000 hours, whichever came first (for production number 292 and higher, it was increased to 75,000 flight cycles and 100,000 hours). The nearly 90,000 flight cycles exceeded the design limit of the 737-100 /200 under either construction model._ ~~~ engi_nerd Yes, this was the example in my mind, thank you for posting about it. Flight hours weren't informative enough in the case of this aircraft because it spent its time making short hops involving lots of pressurization cycles. ------ hackuser > ... and a drop in jet-kerosene prices that makes older planes attractive Based on that one comment, said in passing, the cost of jet fuel has dropped enough that airlines now are looking for less-efficient designs. That seems dangerous. Is airline fuel subsidized like automotive fuel is? At least, I doubt the airlines pay for the massive externality of climate change. ~~~ hollerith I know gasoline is extremely cheap in some Middle-Eastern countries, but is gasoline subsidized in the U.S.? ~~~ hackuser > is gasoline subsidized in the U.S.? That's a good question. My understanding always has been that it is, especially in many indirect ways. For example, tax breaks and other government benefits for the oil and gas industry, as well as for the automotive industry. But I can't cite any off the top of my head. One way it's indirectly subsidized, at extremely high cost, is the use of the U.S. military to protect industry assets, especially in the Mideast where we maintain a large, active military presence. As just part of the cost, the Iraq war cost the U.S. over $1 trillion. I very much doubt we would have been involved if there wasn't so much oil in and around Iraq. On the other hand, every import or export business relies on the peace, stability, and secure sea lanes provided by the U.S.'s foreign operations (military and diplomatic).	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Must Every Kids' Movie Reinforce the Cult of Self-Esteem? - juandopazo http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2013/08/you-can-do-em-anything-em-must-every-kids-movie-reinforce-the-cult-of-self-esteem/278596/ ====== Millennium Actually, pretty much, yes. That's the thing about irrational models: if it's not constantly reinforced, people start to question it, and then it all falls apart. The modern notion of self-esteem is no different.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Uber Sued By Taxi And Livery Companies In Chicago For Consumer Fraud And More - kunle http://techcrunch.com/2012/10/05/uber-sued-by-taxi-and-livery-companies-in-chicago-for-consumer-fraud-and-more/ ====== noonespecial Gandhi springs to mind. I think this is the part that comes right before "then you win". ~~~ gruseom Uh oh. Afraid that quote is a hobbyhorse of mine. There's no evidence Gandhi said it; it is commonly traced back to a garment workers' activist in 1914: _First they ignore you. Then they ridicule you. And then they attack you and want to burn you. And then they build monuments to you. And that, is what is going to happen to the Amalgamated Clothing Workers of America._ [1] But the general idea goes back at least to 1868, in a lecture by one J. Marion Sims, "the father of American gynecology" [2]: _For it is ever so with any great truth. It must first be opposed, then ridiculed, after a while accepted, and then comes the time to prove that it was not new, and that the credit of it belongs to some one else._ [3] The latter formulation is more commonly misattributed to Schopenhauer [4]. Lots of people have looked at this, so I'm surprised someone managed to trace the quote back so much further. It would be fun to know who figured that out. [1] [http://books.google.ca/books?id=QrcpAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA53&...](http://books.google.ca/books?id=QrcpAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA53&lpg=PA53&dq=%22And,+my+friends,+in+this+story+you+have+a+history+of+this+entire+movement.+First+they+ignore+you.+Then+they+ridicule+you.+And+then+they+attack+you+and+want+to+burn+you.+And+then+they+build+monuments+to+you.+And+that,+is+what+is+going+to+happen+to+the+Amalgamated+Clothing+Workers+of+America.%22&source=bl&ots=NgSL47nTqJ&sig=10Jjk0RyGjrVoHYvboTQkuxnpXA&hl=en&ei=SpTJTdfkLeSM0QHr4NDaBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=%22And%2C%20my%20friends%2C%20in%20this%20story%20you%20have%20a%20history%20of%20this%20entire%20movement.%20First%20they%20ignore%20you.%20Then%20they%20ridicule%20you.%20And%20then%20they%20attack%20you%20and%20want%20to%20burn%20you.%20And%20then%20they%20build%20monuments%20to%20you.%20And%20that%2C%20is%20what%20is%20going%20to%20happen%20to%20the%20Amalgamated%20Clothing%20Workers%20of%20America.%22&f=false) [2] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Marion_Sims> [3] [http://books.google.com.au/books?id=cHQCAAAAYAAJ&lpg=PA2...](http://books.google.com.au/books?id=cHQCAAAAYAAJ&lpg=PA290&ots=yQH4mPCS7e&dq=%22For%20it%20is%20ever%20so%20with%20any%20great%20truth%22&pg=PA290#v=onepage&q=%22For%20it%20is%20ever%20so%20with%20any%20great%20truth%22&f=false) [4] <http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Arthur_Schopenhauer#Disputed> ~~~ noonespecial Yep. It begs questions that you could care less about. Learn to let go. ~~~ gruseom Hmm. Perhaps what I should learn is to be less Canadian and not lead with an apology. ~~~ noonespecial No, no. Don't get me wrong. I wasn't trying to be needlessly combative. Misuse of "begs the question" and "could(n't) care less" used to be similar hobby horses of mine. Once something reaches a critical mass, however, it becomes futile trying to set it right. You might want to avoid discovering too much about Confucius and/or Yogi Berra for your own sanity. <http://xkcd.com/386/> ------ kunle You know you're doing something truly disruptive when your competitors have to invoke or change the law to defeat you.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Saudi Arabia Allows Women to Travel Without a Male Guardian's Permission - Alyan https://time.com/5642228/saudi-arabia-ends-guardianship-system/ ====== Konnstann It's always funny for me to see articles like this, the last one I remember was about women being able to drive. What does Saudi Arabia have that prevents the world from interfering in its politics? Don't say oil, if it was just that the US would have been in there long ago. ~~~ Alyan Why is that even a good idea at all? First most of these laws are a result of the culture here and if a vote were to happen are likely to remain or at least be controversial. Even the silly driving ban which have no religious basis is/was controversial even amongst women. Enforcing non popular laws from a foreign entity is a good recipe for disaster and may increase resistance to these laws and start wars or other bad stuff. Heck I think most Saudi citizens, even the liberal ones, would not want such actions. In addition, I think they are also too many countries which doesn’t match US ideals, will US start WW3? For example there are many islamic countries with differing laws but I would guess most don’t match US ideals. ~~~ d2mw The western world has sad tendency to believe its ideals are the only ideals, so you're unlikely to attract much productive comment. Fanaticism is found everywhere, it's just common for some cultures to give it another name when convenient ~~~ Retra It's not that simple to equate the two. Modern western ideals are _modern_ western ideals. If living under an authoritarian monarchy were just another way of living, there wouldn't have been a history of revolt against it in the west, because western civilization is no stranger to this kind of society. Western societies have _tried_ autocracy many times. How many times has Saudi Arabia tried liberal democracy? ------ D-Coder To quote a comment from other places, "Welcome to the 19th Century." ------ lioeters Time has one of those data-collection consent forms that are seemingly impossible to opt out of, before being able to read the article. I refuse to fall for that dark pattern. Here's a better link: [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/aug/01/saudi- women-ca...](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/aug/01/saudi-women-can- now-travel-without-a-male-guardian-reports-say) "Women in Saudi Arabia will no longer need the permission of a male guardian to travel.." "Still in place, however, are rules that require male consent for a woman to leave prison, exit a domestic abuse shelter or marry. Women, unlike men, still cannot pass on citizenship to their children and cannot provide consent for their children to marry." ~~~ Alyan I would like to add, quoting from times: “Other changes issued in the decrees allow women to register a marriage, divorce or child’s birth and to be issued official family documents” IANAL but I am a Saudi citizen and it seems male consent to leave prison and abuse shelter may be included in these changes. I have seen Saudi citizens speculate about both possibilities so it is not clear yet. Only one of the four major Islamic Sunni madhhaps allow females to marry without consent. Saudi Arabia follows a different madhhap. So if I were to speculate I don’t think it will happen soon because it may risk a revolt as I believe most citizens are religious or at least conservative. However, I also did not expect the current changes to happen this soon for the same reasons so I may be wrong. ~~~ lioeters Thank you, that's really interesting to hear a first-person perspective about the cultural changes. > [Allowing] females to marry without consent..may risk a revolt.. Wow, I didn't realize how strongly people (I guess in this case mainly men) felt about this issue. I'm all for women's rights and liberation, but I see that it must be done in a sensitive manner, as it relates to fundamental values of religion, gender roles, and I suppose power dynamics in society. ~~~ grumpydba > I'm all for women's rights and liberation, but I see that it must be done in > a sensitive manner. These laws are ruthless and insensitive towards women though... ~~~ magduf Yeah, but women need to consider the desires of men who want to keep them oppressed. /s Replace the word "women" with "black people abducted from Africa" and change the time period to the 15-1800s in the US/Europe. "I'm all for the liberation of enslaved black people, but it needs to be done slowly, in a sensitive manner..." It's amazing how, when you get a religion involved that says oppression is good and right, that you can justify stuff like slavery and oppression. ~~~ lioeters I get what you mean, especially when compared with historical examples of fighting for civil rights. The anger from the oppressed, those demanding their rights, is justified. And it does sound absurd to ask anyone to be sensitive to their oppressors' feelings and reaction. I guess by "sensitive", I meant changing the system together, rather than against each other. But in retrospect, that may be a naive and unrealistic expectation. If Saudi Arabia continues to improve civil rights for women and there's a "gender riot", angry men on the streets calling for return to "traditional values".. Well, so be it, that might be the price of progress? ~~~ TheCoelacanth Yes, if someone wants to riot because they're no longer allowed to oppress someone else then fuck them. ~~~ magduf I agree, but the problem is when 1) those people have large enough numbers to be politically powerful, and even worse 2) when those people have convinced those people they've oppressed that they _should_ be oppressed, so those victims join them in upholding the oppression. When #2 happens in sufficient numbers, I'm not really sure what the answer is, except to lead by example. ------ devoply Bonesaw has done it again! ~~~ dang Please don't do this here.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Web scraping without coding - mychaelangelo https://automatio.co/ ====== kinderjaje Thanks for sharing it @mychaelangelo	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
SSL Labs in 2016 and Beyond - mostafah https://blog.qualys.com/ssllabs/2016/05/16/ssl-labs-in-2016-and-beyond ====== nailer We love you Ivan! 'Bulletproof SSL and TLS' joins 'The Illustrated Network' and the 'Unix and Linux System Administration Handbook' as the 'if you're going to read one book' book for its topic. Which is a massive achievement. Random question from another HN thread: did a 4096 bit RSA used to be required to get A+? ~~~ ivanr Thanks! (No, 4096-bit RSA has never been required for A+.) ~~~ blfr It used to be for 4x100 though. ~~~ ivanr It might still be, but the per-category scores are no longer shown. (You can infer the values from the chart.) There's also a per-report score that is not shown any more either. That's because those scores are not really important; only the letter grade is. The grading criteria should be tweaked (it's on the todo list still) not to favour "too much" security because that affects site performance. It's not easy having one grading approach for all sites. ------ dijit SSL labs is brilliant and I've thought about 'why do qualys do this, what are they trying to sell.' I mean. You can't do anything meaningful with the data that you couldn't have done with automated scanning. It has definitely made me remember the brand in a fond way, service above profit is something I respect a lot and if they had something I need I would consider them above cheaper competitors. ~~~ ivanr Having been on the inside, everyone at Qualys simply loved SSL Labs in the same way everyone else did. There's never been an agenda for it, only "it's good for security so we'll keep supporting it". There's a funny story about how SSL Labs ended up at Qualys, by the way. After accepting the job (to do something else not related to SSL/TLS), I showed SSL Labs to the CEO, Phillipe Courtot. He loved it and wanted it. I offered it to him purely because I thought it would be too big for a hobby project; I didn't want a serious distraction from my day job :) ~~~ yuhong Trivia: Even SSL Labs was limited to TLS 1.0 and 1024-bit DHE in the early days, because they themselves used JSSE. ~~~ antod If it was JSSE, from memory it was probably only 768bit DHE. I think that only changed with Java 8. ~~~ yuhong Yes, but I am talking about client not server. ------ jvehent Ivan Ristic has done a remarkable service to the Internet with SSLLabs and ModSecurity, and he has done so with a fantastically positive attitude all throughout. Thank you Ivan, I'll be curious to see what you come up with next ;) ------ nodesocket Kudos Ivan. I use SSL Labs regularly, and it's been a very important tool in my ops tool chain. Best of luck in the future. ------ jlgaddis Thanks for SSL Labs, Ivan, and best of luck to you in your new endeavor/role! ------ tmd83 Haven't even thought about what Qualys does or why they are doing this for free, just went to the site anytime I needed to verify SSL configuration status. Such a fabulous service without asking for anything in return. Such a tremendous contribution in raising the awareness and enabling people to make their configurations more sure. ------ aw3c2 Aaaah, there is no link to [https://www.qualys.com/](https://www.qualys.com/) or [https://www.ssllabs.com/](https://www.ssllabs.com/) anywhere on this blog! ~~~ ivanr You're right, sorry! I've added a couple of links now. I spent a lot of time thinking about what I was going to write that I forgot to think about anything else :) ------ paulirwin This post made me realize the human effort behind all of these tools that I use and love like SSL Labs but I take for granted. Thank you for your work and to all the other free tool authors that go unrecognized. ------ calvins I'm also a happy user of SSL Labs and reader of Bulletproof SSL and TLS. One very cool thing about the book is that if you purchase the hard copy (I got it from Amazon, for example), they'll email you epub, PDF, and web versions for free. The web version is perfect for reference at work. And the book gets updates too ([http://blog.ivanristic.com/2015/08/bulletproof- maintenance.h...](http://blog.ivanristic.com/2015/08/bulletproof- maintenance.html)). Thanks Ivan! ------ djhworld I went on a training course given by Ivan last year, it definitely improved my understanding of HTTPS/SSL, great effort all round. ------ rsajan Thank you Ivan. Over the last many years - when it came to SSL/TLS and web security questions - so often I found a solution in one of your blog posts or forum comments. I can't wait to read your book. All the best.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Ask HN: "Issue Tracker” for Governments? - dv35z Has any government (country, state, city, etc) implemented an issue tracker, in order to promote visibility into what the government is working, prioritizing, making progress towards, etc?<p>This relates to the problem statement of "I, as a citizen, find it difficult to keep track of all the important issues. Instead, I default to thinking about the most recent issues, or the ones most publicized in the news media. "<p>I'd imagine the federal government-level tracker would deal with large-scale macro issues, link to public feedback (e.g votes, complaints, importance over time), show legislation (along with proposal/implementation status), estimated duration/budget/resources required, prioritization (along with rationale), etc.<p>On small / local scale, as a simple example: Imagine that you see a pothole in a nearby street. As a citizen, you could submit an issue "Pothole @ 56th/2nd ave" (along with consolidation of similar issues), and the city could be able to transparently acknowledge the issue, delegate to the right group, and provide visibility into the urgency and timeline of the fix, etc.<p>It would be interesting if a government leader deliberately held themselves accountable by taking stock of the "issues" present at the beginning of their administration, and then regularly providing a summarized report of progress they've made (how many issues closed out, and what impact that had), where they are blocked ("we don't have money for that!"), and soliciting input from the public to help prioritize certain initiatives.<p>Note: I am specifically NOT talking about "law as code", GitHub for legislation. ====== troydavis I'd also value this, either as described or even simply public access to resident-reported issues (that the resident didn't mark as private). Seattle uses a one-way issue reporting system without public access or input, and often without followup to the requestor. There's also an app for opening tickets: [https://www.seattle.gov/customer-service-bureau/find-it- fix-...](https://www.seattle.gov/customer-service-bureau/find-it-fix-it- mobile-app) The backend is hosted by Motorola Solutions ([https://www.motorolasolutions.com/](https://www.motorolasolutions.com/)). To obtain ticket information, one person submitted a public disclosure request: [https://twitter.com/Andres4Seattle/status/111678932579285811...](https://twitter.com/Andres4Seattle/status/1116789325792858112). In the process, he learned that it "is proprietary and for reasons that I never got answered the Motorola backend can't make the data public." ------ mtmail [https://www.fixmystreet.com/](https://www.fixmystreet.com/) helps with the potholes in the UK. Opensource as [https://fixmystreet.org/](https://fixmystreet.org/)	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Gmail and Drive - a new way to send files - neya http://gmailblog.blogspot.com/2012/11/gmail-and-drive-new-way-to-send-files.html ====== guelo Totally off topic but blogspot is just awful. Why does everything have to be a complicated buggy JavaScript app? There's nothing wrong with serving up good ol HTML pages, especially for simple text and images content like a blog. ~~~ chimeracoder I despise this new trend, and it kills me that Google seems to be embracing it more and more. Google Groups is the worst offender for me - it completely breaks my browser's keybindings for going backwards, so every time I'm, eg. searching Googling a bug and open a mailing list archive to find an answer to a bug, I inevitably end up collapsing the thread each and every time, when what I really want is just to go back to the search results. I don't want every Google website to have its own tiling window manager within the page - that's what my OS is for! Of course, they have no intention of fixing this, it seems. Disabling Javascript just yields an error message - 'Please turn on Javascript to view this page'. ~~~ anigbrowl I totally agree. Not only does it disrupt bindings and make pages slow to load, but at least once a day Chrome now freezes when I do a Google search - the results page loads, but I can't click on anything and if I scroll down the bottom of the page hasn't been rendered at all. Nothing for it but to reboot Chrome 3 times (it dies silently the first two). I still love Google overall (so yay on mailing big files and yay on Gmail generally), but the endless feature creep is a weakness, not a strength. ------ munin > Have you ever tried to attach a file to an email only to find out it's too > large to send? Yeah! Some jerk who runs my MTA set the size of acceptable attachments really low! I wonder who did that... $ host -t mx mydomain.com mydomain.com mail is handled by 0 aspmx.l.google.com. Oh... I see. ~~~ notatoad Attachment size limits aren't there just to fuck with you. Sending large files around between web clients is okay, but if you send a large file to an outlook user they're going to have to sit there waiting for it to download before the rest of their email comes in. And then it's going to make their PST file exceed the maximum PST file size, which in a poorly managed system (i.e. most personal computers) is going to cause data loss. Also, my parents used to use an ISP-provided email address, and it would silently drop any messages that included a file that exceeded their maximum attachment size. So any time i tried to send them photos, they'd never get the email. Limiting attachments to a fairly small size is just being a good citizen of the email network. ~~~ munin Oh sure. However, it also puts a lot of load / strain on servers that Google doesn't want to run (SMTP, IMAP, etc). The way the post is written makes it sound like Google has figured out how to tame some natural force to allow us to have big e-mail attachments, while all along the limit was set by Google itself. I really don't think that Google cares about Outlook users (why should they). Somewhat unrelated, I think that Google is beginning to try and pressure people to stop using SMTP and IMAP. I've long used Mail.app, mutt, or Thunderbird to use mail hosted by Google, almost entirely because the GMail client doesn't support any kind of message encryption or authentication. Recently, I have been receiving a lot of "quota exceeded" messages during routine interactions with the IMAP servers. I suspect that Google is in the process of gradually lowering the allowed quotas for IMAP usage in an attempt to get people to use the web UI, Android, or cros ... ~~~ hurstdog I'm not sure why you're getting those quota errors, but I can assure you that we're not trying to pressure people to stop using SMTP and IMAP. If you post on the forums, some user support folks should be able to help you out and escalate to engineering if they find you're hitting a bug. Sorry for the issues you're seeing. ------ danbarker I've been paying for Google Drive for several months because I really, really want it to work, but it's actually kinda useless as it causes constant instability and 120%+ CPU load on my 2012 Macbook Pro. This means that I frequently close the application down, so it's not actually covering me and if I lost my computer, the most recent files probably wouldn't be covered. There's been an open issue about this in the support forums for months and there's no news on when they're going to fix it... ~~~ Lewisham I switched to Arq with Glacier as my "House Burns Down" backup, as I already backup to a Time Machine external drive at home. I'm very happy with it, but of course, I've never tried to get the data back yet. ~~~ chimeracoder > I'm very happy with it, but of course, I've never tried to get the data back > yet. Not to be that guy, but... if you don't have a tested restoration plan for a backup, you don't have a backup! Nothing's worse than losing all your data with no backup... except for losing all your data and going to restore from your backup, only to find that all your data there is gone as well! ~~~ Lewisham Agreed. When Arq finishes its backup, I'll do a verification. I appreciate you being "that guy" :) ------ stephenhuey This is long overdue. I've been inserting links to Google Docs (the old name for Drive files) into emails forever, but plenty of people I know don't realize how easily they can do that and give up if a large file cannot be attached to an email. I'm also surprised by how many Gmail-using friends of mine don't even know there's some hefty free file storage a click away even though the link to it has been at the top of their Gmail for years. ------ tedmiston A welcome feature, but we can't ignore the paradigm shift's tiny repercussion: once the sender deletes the file, the receiver will no longer be able to access it (assuming they've lost, deleted, or not yet downloaded their own copy). Lately I've used shared Dropbox folder links for larger attachments, but the same problem seems to persist with any hosted solution. A solution that pleases both the sender having control over their files and the receiver having long-term access is tough to imagine. ~~~ nilved > A solution that pleases both the sender having control over their files and > the receiver having long-term access is tough to imagine. It's that paradoxical? Having control of the file means being able to revoke access to it. If the viewer has long-term access, the owner doesn't have control. ~~~ tedmiston I agree with your statement. I should be more precise: the gap will appear in the layman's approach. For example, A: "Hey remember that file you sent me a while ago? I can't access it anymore." B: "Oh, I deleted it." A: "But I thought it was an attachment?" B: "Well..." ------ simonsarris This is lovely. Very welcome. Sending and sharing files are two of those things that are just now sluggishly rolling over to discover that it's a new millennium. Dropbox and Drive are making great strides lately and I'm really thankful for it. Using Dropbox to have the same "folder" across three computers is the first time synced sharing ever felt intuitive enough for my (71 year old) father to regularly use, and now he can use this to reliably send larger files to people without any worry of fouling up permissions (that would otherwise be difficult for him to understand). ------ revelation So can we use that to send binaries to people? Because gmail will absolutely not allow you do that. They will go as far as inspecting archives to look for binaries and ban you from sending them. ~~~ whyleyc You can get around this by renaming the file to have some arbitrary image extension. Not ideal, but works. ~~~ kamjam Or zip it up with something like 7zip, encrypt it with a password and tell it to encrypt the filenames as well so Google can't peek inside :) ------ benaiah So, in other words, Gmail just added a feature that Hotmail/Outlook.com have had for years. _golf clapping_ ~~~ cenit yes. Exactly... But, you know, now it's done by Google... Anyway, I'm surprised that no-one except you cited skydrive and the fact that they just copied a feature so old for many users... ------ csmatt It's about time! I use Google's cloud-based services for as much as I can, but it's still not seamless and is annoying when I have to open a new window to access a service run by the same company providing the one in the page I'm on. Next step: Please allow me to easily save PDF's and other documents directly to Drive from a URL. I shouldn't have to download a file to my device and then upload it to drive. ~~~ telcodud If you use cloudprint (link: <http://www.google.com/cloudprint>), you can already save PDFs or any other URL directly to Google Drive. I use this all the time to save online confirmations, receipts, etc. ------ kissickas > Now with Drive, you can insert files up to 10GB Hmm, how much space do I have in there now? 0% of 5 GB used... Now it makes sense. ~~~ dannyr You can pay and get more space. ~~~ kissickas Sorry for the late reply... that is what I was implying. They are offering this to sell more storage space. ------ jdbevan Is no-one else worried about these TOS applying to their email attachments? you give Google (and those we work with) a worldwide license to use, host, store, reproduce, modify, create derivative works (such as those resulting from translations, adaptations or other changes we make so that your content works better with our Services), communicate, publish, publicly perform, publicly display and distribute such content. The rights you grant in this license are for the limited purpose of operating, promoting, and improving our Services, and to develop new ones. This license continues even if you stop using our Services (for example, for a business listing you have added to Google Maps). EDIT: I guess it's a moot point if you're already using Gmail. ------ paulirish I've been dogfooding the "Gmail will double-check that your recipients all have access to any files you’re sending" feature for a month now and it's FANTASTIC. If you use Google Docs a lot, this saves so much permission pingpong. ~~~ brettkw Honestly Gmail's new features never cease to amaze me. Their new compose box is a good example. Initially it was terrible for me as I frequently send from other email addresses but within a week they had removed a click or two and now it's perfect. ~~~ dmd I'm very impressed with how fast that other-email-address UI issue was fixed. ------ ivanb Is this minuscule feature worth the front page? ------ yason This is how email could work too. The sender would host it (by himself or in cloud) and the recipients go fetch it when they want to read it. Updates and comment threads all collect into the same place. No spam either since nobody would be pushing tens of megabytes of messages to your inbox. ~~~ Sidnicious It’s cool in a lot of ways, but there are two big disadvantages over traditional attachments: \- The recipient doesn’t get a static copy of the file to keep alongside the email. \- The sender’s responsible for keeping the file available until the recipient has seen/saved it. ~~~ eagsalazar2 those are both advantages in plenty of situations. Just depends on what you want in a given situation. ------ kamakazizuru this is awesome! it might also just tip the scales from dropbox over to drive. I cant believe something so obviously powerful took so long! I do hope that it will allow me to share files with non-gmail users as well! ------ goronbjorn There is a really good third-party Chrome extension that effectively does this already and also works with Box and Dropbox: <https://attachments.me/> ~~~ gregd I LOVE attachments.me! I have it set up to automatically store attachments from certain folks to a dropbox folder. I only wish it worked with MailPlane... ------ fudged71 Question: so with this, I can send an attachment and change the file before the recipient opens it? Will they see if it has been modified? Will I see when they have accessed it? ~~~ crb This is an automated way to do what was previously "copy and paste a Google Docs link into an e-mail". Yes, you can change the file. If it's in native Google format (e.g. a Google Doc, not an uploaded/stored Word .doc file) you have a revision history. You can see when people join/leave the document while it's open (without timestamps), but you can't bring that up later. ------ mitko plug: my friend built a chrome extension that does a superset of that - it is called Cloudy and integrates with filepicker.io which lets you choose files from multiple cloud storages: [https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/cloudy/fcfnjfpcmno...](https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/cloudy/fcfnjfpcmnoabmbhponbioedjceaddaa) disclaimer: I work for a Google competitor ------ kexek Would be perfect if they add this Google Drive attachments functionality to Sparrow. Someday. ------ agumonkey I wonder if this will cause storage optimisations on their data centers. ------ WayneDB I never liked the idea of hosting my own files on someone else's server (Dropbox) or sending them through a middle-man. That's why i just run my own "cloud" on my own premises. If I want to give someone access to a file, I just throw it on my Synology DiskStation and the receiver can get at it via FTP or HTTP client. ~~~ zacharycohn That's not a "cloud," that's just a server. There's an important difference, and people need to stop using them interchangeably. ~~~ radarsat1 What is the difference? ~~~ Achshar I believe cloud by definition means third party, but something like the host wont know what it is storing, just who accesses it. So in OP's case if his computer is shutdown, the server wont be able to serve the file, but if it is on "cloud" there is a lot less chance of downtime and greater latency as "cloud" can have multiple data centers around the globe to server same file. ~~~ eccoli I believe it's worse than that. Since as long as I remember and probably even before that, when explaining networking to executives, marketing and other technically challenged people, we use drawings. In these drawings the part representing the internet is for some reason drawn as a cloud, probably to convey that some magic we don't want to get into the deatils happens there. Now you've got it, the cloud, a.k.a. the internet symbol for ignorant people. ------ facorreia Seems very useful. I bet I'll be using that a lot. ------ stephengillie Sorry for being pessimistic, but any speculation on the vulnerabilities this connection opens? ~~~ ceejayoz No more than the years-old sharing features in Google Docs/Drive, I'd imagine.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Any cellphone can be traced by its digital fingerprint - antr http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn23973-any-cellphone-can-be-traced-by-its-digital-fingerprint.html#.UfpzeGRgblN ====== taylorbuley > Their research, funded by the EU and the German government, was performed on > 2G phones. But "defects are present in every radio device, so it should also > be possible to do this with 3G and 4G phones," Hasse says Stuck researching on 2G handsets? Let's get this guy some more grant money, please. ------ abritishguy Being able to tell the difference between 13 different handsets and being able to 'trace any cellphone' are two very different things. Pick 13 random people from the planet and you can tell the difference between them if you know their birthday (just day and month) that doesn't mean you can trace anyone if that's the only information you know. Good research, dumb article. ------ Oculus If my understanding is correct, they're using the tiny variations in phones' signals to identify them. Could such evidence be used in court? Couldn't they just argue that it was merely a coincidence that the signal fingerprint is the same, since it's just based on randomness in the phone? ~~~ ape4 I suppose real fingerprint differences (on your fingers) are tiny variations that are merely a coincidence. ------ Swannie I assume, as it is unstated, that this requires quite accurate information about the radio signals of the device - probably at a level only accessible at the radio of the mast. It's possible that these irregularities are encoded in the raw bit stream from the base station (e.g. to the Radio Network Controller), but they'd be lost here... So to put this in place, you'd probably need to add some additional hardware/processing capacity into the RNC or the base station (though, that's not too far fetched, seeing as most existing base stations are now over- spec'ed on space and power). ------ mafribe Related is work by T. Kohno, A. Broido, and K. Claffy [2] where, too, small deviations in device hardware is exploited for device identification, in this case clock skew. [1] [http://homes.cs.washington.edu/~yoshi/papers/PDF](http://homes.cs.washington.edu/~yoshi/papers/PDF) ~~~ weland This is very interesting. It makes me wonder how it could be countered. If I understood the points of the article correctly (but, to my shame, I haven't read it very thoroughly -- I'm posting this more under the excitement of the moment), one could get _some_ basic success by inserting small, random jitter into the timestamp it sticks on the packets. However, this isn't exactly stellar because, if the attacker can collect enough data, averaging out the random jitter to isolate a constant (or constantly-changing, which is a good approximation for most hardware clocks over the period of time we're considering) skew. So perhaps a better option would be to add a _biased_ jitter that gets changed at some more or less random, but short enough interval? ------ pakitan Article also mentions about identifying the camera by analyzing the produced image: _From underlying imperfections in the lens, which are detectable in the image, the source camera can be identified_ Is this really possible or he was just giving an example to explain how the phone tracking method works? ~~~ jevinskie Perhaps. It is certainly possible to identify the camera model (and possibly the individual camera) using noise and demosaicing artifacts! [http://isis.poly.edu/memon/pdf/2008_classification.pdf](http://isis.poly.edu/memon/pdf/2008_classification.pdf) ------ dmix Police tracked down the Boston Bombers SUV they stole almost immediately by using the drivers cell phone. I'm curious why is this never used in property theft retrieval for phones and only for cases police deem necessary? ~~~ Zikes IIRC, police don't have a direct line to that sort of information. They have to submit requests to the cell carriers, which are rate-limited and capped such that the police have to be very discerning about which cases they would like to use the resource for. ------ rdl I always wondered how well you could fingerprint individual wifi devices. I.e. how effective is changing your MAC and various IP and above stuff. ------ ryanmcbride Would this work with a burnerphone? [https://www.burnerphone.us/](https://www.burnerphone.us/) ~~~ groby_b Excellent. I can order a "burner phone" with a credit card. And have it shipped to me. And the selling point is "because the NSA records everything", followed by a starry-eyed "don't worry, we'll delete your info after we processed your order". I think some people need to take paranoia lessons there :) ------ FedRegister Why wouldn't it just be easier to track IMEI values? That doesn't change when you change the SIM card. ~~~ noselasd Because (first sentence in article): "Tech-savvy criminals try to evade being tracked by changing their cellphone's built-in ID code and by regularly dumping SIM cards." ~~~ gbl08ma I own a phone powered by a Mediatek SoC, where the IMEI is easily changed on the "engineer mode" \- and from what I remember, you don't even need to have root rights to do it, only access to a hidden Android activity. Not entirely related but I also have worked with WiFi equipment (including that phone) that allows for changing the MAC address, which is something more common I think. ------ coin This was done during the late 90's to combat cellphone cloning ------ ivanca Yeah! And then you just go and interrogate the theft that stole the cellphone... in Haiti.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Ask HN: How to announce/launch a GitHub project? - wdstash I’m getting ready to introduce a new open source project with its codebase on GitHub. Is there a GitHub specific “announcement” site for devs to learn about new projects? How did you get gain recognition/stars on your projects? ====== mikece From watching HN, it seems one valid approach is to start your repo on GitHub (or GitLab -- seems to be more trendy this week), write up a good readme.md page and maybe a functional pre-alpha set of code, then post it to HN as a "Show HN" or "Announcing WASM Parrot: the Perl to WebAssembly compiler" or whatever the title/purpose of the project is. Lather, rinse, repeat on Reddit. Actually, the "how to announce a project" would make for a great topic in an expanded FAQ.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Facebook’s new ads will track which stores you visit - bruceb http://www.recode.net/2016/6/14/11926124/facebook-ads-track-store-visits-retail-sales ====== King-Aaron I once worked for a company that was producing a (cutting-edge at the time) system to sniff MAC addresses of mobile phones in a building etc, and create heat maps of physical traffic. Combined with their other product, which was a crm-type of thing that also handled web analytics and so forth, it allowed us to see if a client's online marketing actually turned into real conversions. It was quite interesting, if a little bit on the legally-grey edge of things. I don't know how far it's progressed in the several years since I was there, but the product is called Blix: [https://www.getblix.com/](https://www.getblix.com/)	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Funding Django is not an act of charity, it's an investment - intellectronica https://www.djangoproject.com/weblog/2016/feb/04/funding-testimonial-divio/ ====== dkyc I think this comment by patio11 is very relevant here: _" We don't donate to OSS software which we use, because we're legally not allowed to. I routinely send key projects, particularly smaller projects, a request to quote me a commercial license of their project, with the explanation that I would accept a quote of $1,000 and that the commercial license can be their existing OSS license plus an invoice. My books suggest we've spent $3k on this in 2015. My bookkeeper, accountant, and the IRS/NTA are united on this issue: they don't care whether a software license is OSS or not. A $1k invoice is a $1k invoice; as a software company, I have virtually carte blanche to expense any software I think is reasonably required, and I think our OSS is reasonably required. I would do this more often if OSS projects made it easier for me to do so. Getting me to pay $1,000 for software is easy; committing me to doing lots of admin work over the course of a week is less easy. Take a look at what e.g. [http://sidekiq.org/](http://sidekiq.org/) , which is an OSS project with a commercial model, does. Two clicks gets me to a credit card form. If I actually used Sidekiq, Mike would have had my credit card on file the day that form went up."_ ([https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10863939](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10863939)) ~~~ JoeAltmaier Legally not allowed? You can donate to anybody you please I would think. Anyway I'm all for using software you pay for, because it has a higher probability of being around next year. One person donating a responsible amount is not going to guarantee that. Its a start I guess. ~~~ masklinn > Legally not allowed? You can donate to anybody you please I would think. The point patio11 makes here is that as a company things are not so easy: > Both countries are very lenient with regards to necessary business expenses > (必須経費 over here). Neither particularly likes arbitrary money moving out of > the company; that smacks of unreported income. ("unreported income" here means money paid to an employee but not reported as income). With a proper invoice and line item, all the boxes are checked and a random audit won't fall on the company like a ton of bricks. Even if the system handles company donations, that tends to be more complex both internally and externally than a "software license" line item, and thus to have way more overhead and to be way more likely to be refused. ~~~ JoeAltmaier Oh, corporate rules. Sure. So "its legally difficult if I'm to keep my tax write-off" would be a better statement? Because it could be a personal donation. ~~~ Mtinie > Because it could be a personal donation. Not if it came out of the company's coffers. But yes, if you change the premise of the original comment, sure, you can easily make a personal donation to an OSS project. ~~~ JoeAltmaier I thought the original comment was about _contributing_ as in, doing work for. But I see the interpretation of "giving money" now, thanks! ~~~ masklinn The original comment was about _donating_ not _contributing_ , and the whole thread is in the context of corporate donations since that's the subject of TFA. ------ travjones >> "...a solid, stable, secure and powerful web application framework..." I think this quote sums up Django very well. I would guess that a large chunk of externally facing and internally facing web apps use django (e.g., apps at Mozilla [0]). Anyone have a link to numbers? It would be neat to quantify the prevalence of frameworks on the net. Someone must have done this already. [0]: [https://www.djangoproject.com/weblog/2015/dec/11/django- awar...](https://www.djangoproject.com/weblog/2015/dec/11/django-awarded-moss- grant/) ~~~ Everhusk 669 stacks on stackshare [http://stackshare.io/django](http://stackshare.io/django) and for comparison: 2.2k rails [http://stackshare.io/rails](http://stackshare.io/rails) 2.34k node.js [http://stackshare.io/nodejs](http://stackshare.io/nodejs) ~~~ travjones Thanks for the data. I guess rails and node are "hotter," but I'm still not convinced because it appears that stackshare relies on self report (which we all know is pretty fallible). Further, selection bias could be at play in these data. For example, individuals more likely to report their stack on stackshare might be the same individuals more likely to use rails or node. Still, at least we've got some numbers. ~~~ cholantesh Well, .NET is under 600, and Meteor is over 1k, which I find dubious. ------ miiiiiike It's like chipping in $10 for a bag of artisinal coconut chips on Kiskstarter, but instead of getting a bag chips you get a mature web framework. And maybe artisinal coconut chips.. I don't know, I've never been to DjangoCon. ~~~ tedmiston Obligatory mention of how Tom Christie successfully funded the latest version of Django Rest Framework from a Kickstarter campaign. While my donation was modest, I participated because I use it regularly, and KS made it easy to give. [https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/tomchristie/django- rest...](https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/tomchristie/django-rest- framework-3/description) ~~~ jsmeaton I think donating by way of kickstarter is fine, but it attracts the same people that regular donations attract. Developers themselves, rather than the companies that are profiting from the use of free software. That's really the gap that needs to be filled. ------ iyn An indirect way to support Django is to use products and/or services of its sponsors: [https://www.djangoproject.com/foundation/corporate- members/](https://www.djangoproject.com/foundation/corporate-members/) ~~~ mooreds Don't forget to mention you are doing so is in part because of their support of Django. ------ brianwawok Kind of unrelated to the topic.. but I recently checked out Django for the first time ever recently (I know, 5 years late) - and was impressed. It has a lot of the things I like in web development with mostly sane defaults (most insane thing found so far: Closing database connection after each request, really?). Edit - Yes I know you can change config to keep connection open, but as a default for prod mode it seemed rather weird ;) Still fighting the internal battle that I know I like better compile time checking (ala Scala), but having changes happen so fast in dev is pretty freakin nice... ~~~ Scarblac I'm not sure if this is in fact what you're saying, but the closing the database connection each time is only the default (historical reasons), changing it is a matter of changing one setting: [https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/1.9/ref/databases/#connect...](https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/1.9/ref/databases/#connection- management) ~~~ bluetech This is still a similar problem for the memcached cache backend (which django recommends): [https://code.djangoproject.com/ticket/11331](https://code.djangoproject.com/ticket/11331) ~~~ brianwawok Oh interesting. I did not mess with memcached, just django + gunicorn + nginx... was pretty nice performance for simple webappy stuff. ------ collinmanderson It's amazing what the Django Software Foundation was able to accomplish with the recent fundraising. It has greatly increased the project's reliability and stability. Let's keep it up. :) ------ DanieleProcida If you rely on Django or another open-source project, can you afford not to help fund it? ------ mixonic I've been pondering corporate roles in modern OSS projects for a few months, especially those in projects that have no single owner. Supporting developers or community members of an OSS project your company uses through employee time or financial means is less of an investment, and more of a hedge. You've picked up a product off the shelf, however that product has a future direction decided by a number of people in a community. A company that chooses not (through inaction or action) to participate in the project is relying on the existing powers-that be, and their existing influences, to make decisions that will benefit the company. This is a risk. A company that chooses to participate cannot _control_ a decentralized project, but they can absolutely influence the software and community by choosing what projects to fund, what kind of roles to hire for, what projects to sponsor, and what to publicly talk about. This influence nudges the community in directions beneficial to the company, and ensures the project doesn't head in a different direction. For example in the last year the Ember.js community has seen an influx of larger companies hiring positions that include OSS time for employees. Large companies sponsoring OSS work is becoming more common. This means the parts of Ember that benefit large company needs (lots of devices, big dev teams) are getting more focus. The transition is exciting and fascinating to observe. Support OSS projects important to your company, or accept the risk that comes with allowing foundational parts of your business to be managed by others (without your needs in mind). ------ stefanfoulis Developing software means you're standing on the shoulders of the opensource giants. Let's feed them from time to time :-) ------ kmfrk Wagtail is one of the most interesting Django projects at the moment ([https://wagtail.io](https://wagtail.io)). A great attempt to make CMSes as useable as humanly possible, which can't be said for WordPress, Drupal, and the usual fare. ~~~ sergiotapia Wordpress exploded in popularity largely in part because it's easy to use. ~~~ acdha I wish the OP had used less sweeping terminology – WordPress is definitely easy to install but keeping it running, customizing it, and staying secure are all areas where reasonable people can have different opinions. It'd be nice if people didn't slag off other projects but instead mentioned what they'd found better/worse about the one they're recommending. ------ danjoc I can't help but wonder if Django wouldn't do better with a multi-licensing strategy like MongoDB uses. Asking for donations typically doesn't work out so well. I see a lot of underfunded open source projects. The whole internet seems to run on them. OpenSSL was one prominent example. I don't think it is coincidence that they are almost always BSD type licenses. To me BSD licensing just seems like the starving artist living on the good will of a few wealthy donors. Donors who frequently end up steering the project. Multi-licensing seems like a healthier approach. ~~~ jsmeaton You're right, and the Django Software Foundation (along with projects like BeeWare) are actively trying to work out how to solve these problems. DSF has hired a part time "director of advancement", Adrienne Lowe, to try to get money back into Django. [https://www.djangoproject.com/weblog/2015/nov/23/introducing...](https://www.djangoproject.com/weblog/2015/nov/23/introducing- dsfs-director-advancement/) ------ pankajdoharey I dont see the point, Rails already solves the problems that Dj-ango is trying to solve again. Rails/ruby combo already solves the problem in a very elegant way. There is no need for another half baked solution that tries to solve the same problem. ~~~ DanieleProcida Django's been around for a pretty long time. Projects like Django and Rails need each other. If there were just one dominant web application framework, it would stagnate. ------ tedmiston Food for thought - As a prospective employee, I'd more likely want to work at a company whose name I saw on the corporate sponsors page (of Django, or whatever framework they use). ------ cbertschy I approve this message :-) ------ booop Can we see the Django Software Foundation's latest Form 990? ~~~ ubernostrum Information on how to do that here: [https://www.djangoproject.com/foundation/records/](https://www.djangoproject.com/foundation/records/) ------ mrfusion I'd like to see something like celery built in. But easier to use and doesn't need a separate db. Is it possinlble to fund that like south was? ~~~ fleetfox Isn't celery plug and play nowadays? If you need a something simpler take a look at django-rq. I don't think a serious job queue is possbile with RDBMS as backend. ~~~ mrfusion What's so special about a job queue that it can't use an rdbms? I never understood that. ~~~ rajivm One reason: Most RDBMS's aren't designed for "waiting for newly queued items". You literally have to have each worker poll at some time interval for new items: `SELECT * FROM jobs WHERE status = 'new'`, transactionally claim the job, and if a worker dies, un-claim it. It's not that it's not possible to use an RDBMS and work around these problems, but generally, it won't lead to the most scalable and robust solution for the problem. Message brokers / AMQP are better designed for this problem set. If you have a small site, with a low volume queue, your RDBMS might be just fine though. ~~~ houzi This is not the case if you're using Postgres, which will signal/notify listening clients, instead of having the clients poll for changes.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Finance sites erroneously show Amazon, Apple, other stocks crashing - doener http://www.marketwatch.com/story/finance-sites-erroneously-show-amazon-apple-other-stocks-crashing-2017-07-03 ====== nopzor This story isn't emphasizing an important point: the stock price of many tech companies - amazon, google, Microsoft - were pegged to exactly $123.46 for multiple hours. This is likely 123.456 rounded to 2 decimals. To me this smells like a software testing bug or hack, rather than "stocks crashing" ~~~ dhbanes I saw it pegged at 123.47 ~~~ beejiu Stocks have two prices. I guess this would be reflected in test data. ~~~ hkmurakami Bid/ask? ------ bbgm As some have suggested, Nasdaq is confirming that this was test data that got propagated to third party aggregators. [https://mobile.twitter.com/Nasdaq/status/882054148413325313](https://mobile.twitter.com/Nasdaq/status/882054148413325313) [http://www.nasdaqtrader.com/TraderNews.aspx?id=utp2017-05](http://www.nasdaqtrader.com/TraderNews.aspx?id=utp2017-05) ~~~ cm2187 Using production systems to run tests... What could go wrong? ~~~ humanrebar It's actually considered best practice in various categories of technology to run tests on the production systems. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Built-in_self- test](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Built-in_self-test) ~~~ noir_lord When done intentionally. I've seen lots of tests 'escape' their environment for a bunch of reasons (tests got sent to production with a deploy, human was on the wrong machine and ran a manual test command etc etc). It's almost impossible not to screw up at some point, I try to focus on minimising the small mistakes (airline pilots have commented that it's not the first problem that kills you it's the second one). ~~~ ethbro That's why artificially differentiated steps are critical. If the "deploy to test" procedure looks exactly like the "deploy to prod" procedure, except with different servers, then you're asking for human error. Ensure the test deploy procedure will _always_ fail if run against prod targets when half-asleep. Whether it's something like requiring a different config setting or a reload or an account switch. Anything that breaks the process-as-usual. ------ trothamel One nice thing about SEC-regulated markets - unlike the various cryptocurrency markets - is that it's possible for trades to be rolled back if they are "clearly erroneous". That isn't perfect - if the data is only a little off, it might not be possible to get a trade rolled back - but it tends to limit how much havoc is called. [https://www.sec.gov/news/press/2009/2009-215.htm](https://www.sec.gov/news/press/2009/2009-215.htm) (My understanding is that trades can also be rolled back in the case of security breaches, at least at the exchange and broker levels.) ~~~ bendbro Why can't majority participants in a crypto currency agree to roll back? ~~~ valarauca1 The majority of participants do not in a crypto-currency. Only the majority of the hashing power. ~~~ jstanley If a majority of participants rejected blocks that were on a chain that did not rollback the erroneous transaction, then the hash power would be forced to follow. I believe the term for who decides is the "economic majority". ------ hbcondo714 > The problem may have originated with data services providing Google and > Yahoo their financial information I'm sure Google and Yahoo pay a small fortune for this data so I'm wondering if they are aware of the situation and holding these data services companies accountable or not.I'm also sure these data companies sell their data beyond information sites to investment firms & others that make buy/sell decisions based on this data. Yahoo does disclose[1] that they get some data 'direct from exchange' though. [1] [https://help.yahoo.com/kb/finance-for- desktop/SLN2310.html?i...](https://help.yahoo.com/kb/finance-for- desktop/SLN2310.html?impressions=true) ~~~ OskarS I'm fairly certain they're aware of the problem :) And yes, I bet this is going to lead to some interesting meetings between them and the data providers. ------ cbanek I've actually seen a number of times where Google Finance has a daily low that was never reached or a high that wasn't shown on the graph (sometimes many percentage points away). It's also notoriously bad when there's a gap up or down, and will sometimes cut out various parts of the graph. But still, seems to be one of the better ones out there, as I still use it. Just don't treat it as authority. Another interesting example of questionable data is the premarket CNN feed at ([http://money.cnn.com/data/premarket/](http://money.cnn.com/data/premarket/)). I have sometimes seen a stock trading premarket down 99%, which almost always looks like an off by some factor of ten of the price. ~~~ pishpash Google Finance does not even have a working price plotter, that's pretty awful in a basic way. ~~~ vpribish and their financial news is flooded to uselessness with bot-written "stories" from sites like "The <placename> [register\|tribune\|bulletin\|news\|alert]". The service is pretty garbage now. ------ vpribish This was a market half-day: exercising some code-paths that haven't been used since the day after thanksgiving '16\. I do find it surprising that google and yahoo are both affected, as they used to have very different patterns of stock data errors (yahoo was much higher quality). ------ grondilu Sometimes I wonder if it would make sense to place long-term buy orders at a ridiculously low bids. Just in case. ~~~ comboy On Bitcoin exchanges, sure. But here I think there's too much liquidity and automated trading. ~~~ MichaelDickens I believe the recent Ethereum flash crash demonstrated that this strategy wouldn't work for cryptocurrency either. Ethereum price dropped to $0.10, but it rebounded in about 5 seconds because trading algorithms put in lots of bids at the really cheap price. ~~~ j_s It did work, but not for many. [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14611653](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14611653) [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14690908](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14690908) ------ rnprince This could be the beginning of a thriller movie. A nefarious hacker group demonstrates a powerful zero-day for a dangerous client by creating national panic over stock prices. ------ thomnific This is silly. Blame the third-party providers on this one, for using exchange prices during a holiday when the exchanges are closed ... ------ doener "Will Briganti, a spokesman for Nasdaq, was unable to immediately comment on the situation." [https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2017-07-04/nasda...](https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2017-07-04/nasdaq- stocks-show-exaggerated-movements-in-after-hours-trading) ------ traviscj One of my grad school classmates spent some time in finance and always used to say something like "your best results are really just bad input data". This has proved a worthy maxim many times over. ------ honestoHeminway What if a multi-government coalation broke out of the lobbyism hypnotization and would split up amazon. Could such a drop be realistic? ------ gchokov Black Monday - fake news edition. ------ ams6110 And we trust that software can drive our cars for us? ~~~ Flammy Stock tracking websites don't need to be perfect, just need to be better than the humans they replaced. Faster, free, and less errors doesn't mean they must be error free. Self driving cars just need to be better than humans, and given the number of teens and senior citizens on the road... ~~~ ams6110 As someone contemplating the purchase of one, a self-driving car needs to be better than _me_. That's a higher bar than better than _average_ even if it's not objectively correct. ~~~ stale2002 Do you ever use a taxi? Because if you do, you are putting your life into the hands of someone who could be a much worse driver than you. Instead of putting your life in the hands of a terrible taxi driver, would you put it in the hands of software that is on average better than a taxi driver? You are in a taxi, so you don't get to choose to drive it yourself. ~~~ goodplay Not gp, but I would personally expect a taxi driver to be better than me seeing the amount of time the diver spends on the road. The driver wouldn't be profitable otherwise. That said, I also mirror gp in that any self-driving car must be at least better than myself for me to trust it. I imagine that's a sentiment shared by many people. ~~~ yellow_postit I agree this is the natural bar, but don't know how to reconcile it with the average person believing they are a better driver than average ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_superiority](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_superiority)) ------ kwelstr Wow, that's crazy! What algorithm did this, or maybe it's some scheme manipulation for profit? You can never be sure when something like this happens, flash stock crashes have a history that's muddy at best. :/ ~~~ Xorlev It's just a data feed error. The markets have not actually moved.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Do women ever conflate war and business? - Stronico An open question - There was recently a post about "Burning boats" comparing ancient wars to modern business. The author is male.<p>My question - do women ever use military metaphors in to explain business matters? I can't recall a single time. ====== msredmond Yes, actually. I'm a woman, I used to write long business articles for magazines, and I'd often use a war motif for those articles (common thing to use a motif -- offers art choices and/or keeps the writer entertained). War just gives you lots of great word choices ("bombarded" "invades" etc.)that seemed to go well in business articles, esp when you're looking at one company vs. another or a new one breaking into the market. It's kinda like how you often see "capitulate" somewhere in an article about France (even if not related) -- it just works together ;-) ~~~ Stronico Interesting. Did you ever compare business tactics to actual military campaigns and strategy? ~~~ msredmond No. Unfortunately, I don't know enough about actual campaigns/strategy to do so. Not that I don't find the topic interesting, but I just never did enough background reading to pull something like that off (unless the Flashman books count ;-), and when you're on deadline, you don't have the time to do detailed research on off-topics. Woulda been cool though -- maybe if women do less reading of that topic, those types of detailed analogies would be used less, but I do think everyone loves a good, violent analogy whenever possible	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Don’t Call Yourself a Developer If You Don’t Code - ZnZirconium https://mariopeshev.com/dont-call-yourself-a-developer-if-you-dont-code/ ====== cr3ative Call yourself whatever you want. There's no need to gatekeep a title which means so little in the first place. ~~~ apetresc Totally agreed. I regularly introduce myself as a doctor to new acquaintances, since I occasionally visit the pharmacy to fill some prescriptions. It totally pisses me off when they insist on asking me what medical school I went to, and elitist crap like that! ~~~ klmadfejno "licensed medical professional" != "developer" ~~~ mrweasel What if you develop software for medical equipment? As developers we’re lucky enough to be able to find industries where our education/certications doesn’t matter. On the other hand, some niches which could use an actual licensed training program. You could in theory teach yourself enough about the medical field to know more than a doctor, still the doctor has a piece of paper saying that someone checked his or her qualifications. Even a CS degree doesn’t tell you anything about a persons abilities to write software. ~~~ reaperducer _What if you develop software for medical equipment?_ Then you're a programmer, not a doctor. _still the doctor has a piece of paper saying that some checked his or her qualifications_ Yes. That's how we keep the frauds and whackjobs from killing people. "Gatekeeping" is a dirty word on HN, but it also has its usefulness. We don't let just anyone drive a car, even if they really really really think they know how. You have to have a license. ------ bdcravens Perhaps, but this argument could be extended. Many "developers" do little more than glue together bits of framework boilerplate. ~~~ just-juan-post Yep - code monkeys gluing APIs and data flows together. Feel free to gatekeep about what a "real" developer is but in the end you all just make someone else's APIs talk to each other. Oh and grind Leetcode for interviews. ------ throwaway0a5e Semi related but in the opposite direction: I know a PE who worked for a local trash disposal service* many years in the past. He always put something like "waste disposal and processing engineer" on his resume and mads it sound like he was dancing around the fact that he was a garbage truck driver. His clients would always ask about it as if he was a truck driver since it looked like an oddball in the context of his resume and he loved saying "Well no, I actually designed the facilities." *Turns out low margin industries employ a surprising number of PEs so they can rubber stamp all their facilities projects in-house without getting bent over by whatever PE firm(s) is buddy-buddy with the municipality(s) they're operating in ~~~ danpalmer What's a "PE"? ~~~ jasonpeacock Professional Engineer, e.g. Civil, Structural, Mechanical, Traffic, etc. They are licensed by the state they do business in, and are required to pass exams and take continuing education credits. ~~~ danpalmer Great thanks, never heard the term before so I'm guessing it's a US term. This is what I understand a Chartered Engineer as in the UK, but that would normally be abbreviated to CEng. ------ bee_rider The title looks like gatekeeping and they probably did that intentionally, to get anger-readers, but they're actually describing a specific issue: WordPress users/admins that are calling themselves developers. The problem is that they keep interviewing these folks for developer positions. That seems like a reasonable complaint, at least from an outsider point of view. Although arguably either some better filtering should happen at an earlier stage in the process... or the author is that filtering. ------ HumblyTossed Just titles. They don't mean anything in this industry. Stop feeling so hurt about it. I don't even know what my title _is_ at work. I'm sure there's an entry in a db someplace, but so what? If anyone calls me anything it's usually an SME. If I'm talking to someone new I usually just say I work with computers and leave it at that. ------ oaiey Well, developing a solution can include zero coding. And there it is fair to call it developing (as in continuously enhancing something... Consider there are land developers long before software. I think the author just had a very specific problem. SAP surely has a similar problem when searching core developers and tons of SAP consultants show up. ------ sushshshsh "Only call yourself a developer if you are creating complex data structures and algorithms" ~~~ HumblyTossed Define complex. ------ duxup A while back I saw someone who bestowed upon them self the term 'full stack' onto their HR related title. That admittedly hurt a little to read. But in the end they're just silly word and job titles and etc are already in a very murky place as far as relevance goes. ~~~ jabroni_salad 'full stack' seems to have devolved to mean 'generalist' in some circles. ~~~ duxup I always thought it was that, kinda from the start ;) You can only know so much in depth. ------ hossbeast And if you do code, call yourself a programmer ------ jbob2000 At my company, we have Technical Service Analysts and Developers. The distinction is that a developer has power to modify the application they manage, whereas a TSA only has the power to _use_ the application they manage. Both can write code, though it tends to be that the developers write code and TSAs don't. For example, I have a TSA that manages our API gateway. They can't modify that application by updating it's codebase, but have the power to deploy stuff and write config scripts for it. As a developer, I manage a front end application, so I have the power to change the code for this application, but I don't have the power to deploy it and I don't really use it. So I really think being a developer or not is based around what you have power over as an individual. ------ dqv Different (and niche) industries use words to describe what they do. Sometimes those words collide in meaning when applied to different specialties. I've worked in an industry where people use the word "programming" to describe using a GUI to configure software. No code is written. It's just data entry. The word has changed meaning in that industry and it's not really my place to tell everyone they're wrong. I just need to be more descriptive when I talk about what I do. Don't call yourself a developer unless you renovate or build properties. ------ cblconfederate stop telling me to stop calling myself a Senior Comment Developer, besides I am a well known upvote hacker. ------ smlckz I have read more code than I have written. What is a suitable title for me? ------ TrackerFF I've been paid to create software in LabVIEW. Checkmate, I guess? ------ anm89 Who cares? ~~~ commandlinefan People who are trying to hire developers, for one. ------ efficax literally who cares	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
What does shutting down of Djangy mean to python developers? - zengr I was recently trying to get my hands wet with Paython and django. Djangy (https://www.djangy.com/) was the first choice as an alternative to Heroku for Rails.<p>But since djangy is shutting down, does that mean there is less traction for python, django web dev in the market?<p>I am not trying to start a flame war against Python + django vs Ruby + Rails.<p>Looking for some advice as a newbie in both the fields, what should I start learning next? ====== phreeza There are plenty of alternatives to Djangy, <http://djangozoom.com/> just to name one. They even mentioned some other alternatives in their final newsletter: <http://blog.djangy.com/2011/02/27/final-djangy-newsletter/>	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Why Do Google Maps’s City Labels Seem So Readable? - ugh http://www.41latitude.com/post/2072504768/google-maps-label-readability ====== zmmmmm It's really interesting that Google seems to be at times able to pull off wonderful UI design bordering on genius (Chrome, Google Maps) and at other times just barely able to be at par (most of Android with select exceptions). I guess this just reflects different teams within Google, but it's a shame they can't apply their best UI talent across all their products (and particularly, the products that most need it, like Android). ~~~ boucher Google does an above average, and often good job, at actual usability challenges. But they are pretty universally bad at making things that people would consider beautiful. Chrome gets usability issues right. Things like their tab closing behavior, the almost total lack of dialogues, one click bookmarking, etc. are all really great. But Chrome is not a beautiful app. Its toolbar icons are fairly childish, its tabs just a bit off. I'd say that trend holds through most of their products. ~~~ zmmmmm > But Chrome is not a beautiful app I guess it's totally subjective and therefore fairly meaningless, but I think Chrome is the most visually appealing of any browser right now. This is partly, I guess, because its primary virtue is minimalism, but the parts that are there are beautiful, I think. ~~~ drivebyacct2 Couldn't agree more. The tabs and buttons fit perfectly into my operating system (<http://i.imgur.com/DO5SQ.png> reusing this image from a few threads back). I don't even use the "Use GTK+ Theme" option (though I do use system titlebar because it looks hot). ~~~ allenp What OS and theme/toolbar/etc is this? It looks great. ~~~ drivebyacct2 This is stock Ubuntu 10.10 Ambiance theme: Unstable Docky from PPA (The stable version is basically identical). Docky is pure butter. It is a few features down from AWN but it's MUCH more consistent (had problems with clicks registering in AWN in weird places) and is gorgeous. It really takes advantage of the SVG icons from Faenza. * ppa:docky-core/ppa The toolbar at the top is standard gnome-panel with Cardapio replacing the standard GNOME Main Menu. Cardapio is easily my favorite main menu of any OS. I have the ability to change the identifier for it, search the menu, see everything grouped nicely, AND resize the menu itself. Awesome stuff. * ppa:cardapio-team/unstable * screenshot of Cardapio: <http://i.min.us/i9sRs.png> I'm using Faenza icons: * <http://tiheum.deviantart.com/art/Faenza-Icons-173323228> * ppa:tiheum/equinox Note, there is a conflict caused by Faenza's author overwriting PNGs in /usr/share/dockmanager which is used by the Docky DEB. I used DPKG and --force-overwrite to get them to install properly. A bit of a pain when there are updates, but really it's only one command and it's well worth it. (The only other thing I could add is, I use dockbarx when I remote in because it doesn't require compositing where Docky does. When I do that, my setup looks like this: <http://i.min.us/iErSa.png>) ~~~ mgedmin The deb conflict could be solved rather neatly by using dpkg diversions: [http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ap-pkg- diversions.ht...](http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ap-pkg- diversions.html) ------ lionhearted I'm amazed that a post about such a potentially dry subject - UI/typeface on maps - is the most fascinating thing I've read today. Extraordinary well done by the author. ~~~ zazi I have to agree with your comment. The more I read the more I was drawn into the article. He had a previous post that was on HN a while ago that I found pretty well written too - <http://www.41latitude.com/post/557224600/map- comparison> ------ adambyrtek The author had to put a considerable effort into preparing the post, and got to some interesting conclusions. I can wholeheartedly upvote such a well researched article. The animated images really show the difference and his alternative variants of Yahoo and Bing demonstrate the point. ~~~ gregable I came here to say the same thing. Modifying the maps from bing/yahoo to simulate the effects that google provided must have taken forever. Even doing something like adding an extra pixel or two of white background to 90ish cities would take me hours. Very well polished article. ~~~ blahedo Not to detract from the work he did (it's still not easy, and it's good work), but a lot of that could be programmatic---select all pixels that are near- black to extract the text, copy them to a separate layer, enlarge selection by 1.5 pixels, flood fill white, and then paste the original text on top of that. A certain amount of massaging is necessary, but it probably wouldn't be "hours" just for that. Also, apparently Google has an API that lets you extract specific layers, e.g. just the text (he mentions using this in the article). Makes sense in retrospect, but it's cool to know anyway. ~~~ chc Even if that isn't practical, you could just magc wand all the text in Photoshop and put a stroke around it. It would probably take 15-30 mins. ------ bryanlarsen A common complaint is that Google is engineer-driven rather than design driven. Some very impressive counter-evidence in the article -- lots of nice design hacks. ~~~ iaskwhy I was thinking more along the lines of exception to the rule. I honestly have some trouble finding another product by Google which has this attention to detail (design-wise), maybe Chrome... ~~~ redthrowaway Chrome on OSX is fantastic, my only beef being that some options are in unintuitive places. For example, 'Extensions' is under 'Window'. _Why?_ There's a perfectly good crescent wrench just sitting by its lonesome self over there there in the corner. I've found Chrome to be the only browser that broke away from the traditional browser format, and pulled it off beautifully. By contrast, FF 3.6 on OSX is hideous. ~~~ ianferrel You can get to Extensions via the crescent wrench, too. It's Wrench->Tools->Extensions. Not at all obvious, but it's there. ~~~ redthrowaway Well now I feel like an idiot. I'm going to bullshit and say it wasn't always like that, because it took me forever to find when I first got my mbp. ------ blahedo When I saw this I could have sworn I had read it before, but in fact what I was remembering were earlier posts by the same guy (also comparing Google, Bing, and Yahoo maps); if you liked this post you might like them too: <http://www.41latitude.com/post/557224600/map-comparison> <http://www.41latitude.com/post/1130407638/map-comparison-2> ------ curtis The blank space around major cities is the most surprising idea to me. ~~~ bdr This might be implemented with the same feature as the lack of clusters: a label suppresses other labels around it, with bigger cities suppressing more. Would be easy to do with a greedy algorithm. ~~~ scott_s It's not the implementation that surprises me - once I know it's the right thing to do, I can easily figure out a method how. What's surprising is the insight that it is the right thing to do. ~~~ bruceboughton I think the parent was suggesting the intuition may have come from applying the other more obvious algorithm. ------ jcampbell1 The author forgot to mention that Google renders the text, then places it on the image. Bing and Yahoo positions then renders, which leads to bad font aliasing. Better to explain with a picture: <http://imgur.com/sy06x> Notice how the google's 'i' is perfect. No grey hinting. ------ cmurphycode This article made me realize that Google's engineering/metrics based approach is more suited to some tasks than others. There are far too many possible views of the map to "design" by hand, but the algorithmic tricks that Google is so good at can handle it no problem. Even if a traditional usability expert could design a map of a given location at a given zoom level better (e.g., <http://www.kickmap.com/>), they couldn't pull it off at Google Maps scale. Very good article, and the visual aides helped a lot. ------ peter_l_downs Am I the only one who thought the Bing maps were more "readable" than the Google maps? I do agree that the Yahoo maps were by far the worst, but to me the Bing maps were better designed (other than the color scheme) than the Google maps. Maybe it's just me? ~~~ willchang I agree. Until someone runs subjects on a bunch of use scenarios, it's hard to say which is better, and I happen to prefer Bing. Conjecturally speaking, one- pixel outlines come at a cost -- if you don't need them, as when the map colors are low-contrast, you can actually have somewhat bigger text. ~~~ ugh My hypothesis is that people with poor eyesight or cheap monitors might have problems with Bing. The low contrast is very beautiful, especially if you have a great screen, but maybe not optimal in all situations. I would love to see that tested. ------ mike463 Google has better thought out color contrast too. The other ones are either too monochromatic, or the map details overwhelm the labels (think 90's web page color contrast) ------ kadavy This brings me back to the days of working at a planning & architecture firm where I edited Illustrator maps with 500,000 objects in them. The thick white outlines do a good job of ensuring that the letterforms aren't impeded by other design elements. The cleared-away areas around cities are a good use of "white space" to increase the hierarchical dominance of major metropolitan areas. There are some nice detailed observations here. Bookmarked. ------ buro9 What surprises me most about this is that this is a solved problem. Labels on maps, proximity to their data point, shades to represents importance, placing of labels to ensure clarity... all of this has long been solved in the area of automated report generation, and specifically things like bubble charts. All that I see when I look at a Google Maps is all of the solutions to the problem of producing legible and clear reports applied to a map. All that I see when I look at Bing and Yahoo mapping are solutions that have only looked at the domain of mapping and haven't considered whether other domains have solved these problems. I don't see "tricks" by Google, I just see a set of solutions from one area being applied to the same essential problems in another area. ------ roryokane I found the animated GIFs annoying in that they changed too fast. It was hard to look at the important points of the map shown quickly enough before the image automatically changed to the other version. For instance, I wanted to try viewing Bing’s map on its own and test how long it took to for me find a certain label on it, but the map always switched to Google’s version too quickly. I would prefer that the different versions of maps would be different images that I could open in tabs and switch between at my leisure. ------ pragetruif It's interesting that Bing actually brought in an outside team (Stamen Design) to design (version 2 of?) their maps: <http://content.stamen.com/i_like_bing_maps_and_I_cannot_lie> ------ davidcann I agree that Goole Maps look the best, but I think this more so highlights the ineptitude of the other mapping sites. Using contrasting text borders over complex patterns and decent spacing are common design principles that the other sites should adopt. ------ cma I don't think the shading effect is really intentional; it is just an artifact of all labels being anti-aliased. A small font will be lighter than a large font in order to indicate/approximate a smaller stroke-width. ------ newyorker I've gotten so addicted to Google Maps, its very hard for me to use a Garmin or Nuvi GPS. I appreciate the clean UI of Google Maps, hope they make standalone GPS device (will save battery drain from your phone). ~~~ aisi Garmin makes Nuvi. Try looking at some of the competition; TomTom are good for maps with just the right amount of visual complexity, and clean UIs. ------ terra_t Halos around your text are quite important if you're trying to draw titles on television, particularly the old NTSC television. You see them all the time in video games too. ------ adg Anyone else wonder how the author made the white outlines on the Yahoo Maps text? Seems super tedious to do this by hand. ------ kondro Probably the most highly used piece of software to come out of Australia. Just in front of Samba and Rsync :-) ------ Garbage Yesterday I heard someone saying "Google is not a designer's company. Its _just_ engineer's company". ------ w1ntermute Any chance of a screenshot (guessing copypasta won't work because there are images)? The site is down. ------ mkramlich great article. several of the qualities he pointed out were already obvious to me. but while not officially a "designer" i've been creating software/graphical/print interfaces for almost 30 years in one form or another. i do notice tricks with fonts and entity positioning. ------ jasonfried Anyone know the actual people involved in these map design decisions at Google? ~~~ replytojasonf I can make some introductions, but why do you want to know? ------ stuaxo Arg, that term "pop" ------ drivebyacct2 Is it wrong of me to scoff? It's pretty obvious from the screenshots that the text density and outlines are the most important and easily noticed factors.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
40billion.com: Get funded by friends, family & fools - thenextweb http://thenextweb.org/2008/08/02/40billioncom-get-funded-by-friends-family-fools/ The 3 F’s stand for friends, family and of course: fools. The FFF fund is often overlooked as a viable option for getting funding. There are some drawbacks to getting money from these groups of people and one of them is getting everybody organized. ====== noodle awesome, this was an idea i was considering doing since it was missing in the space. i hope this is well done, as it could mean good things.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Ask HN: Am I Technical enough to be the Technical Co-founder? - Blackstone4 I am looking for on advice on how technical does a technical co-founder have to be.<p>Is my background enough?<p>My experience:<p>- MEng Engineering Maths (learnt MATLAB, Java, C, Prolog and Haskell as well as Linux)<p>- Software engineer >2years (Java, SQL, Linux)<p>- Quantitative analyst ~2.5 years (VBA and Excel)<p>- Investment professional ~4 years (Excel)<p>In my spare time I've been learning React.js, node/javascript and GraphQL. I've been building an MVP with Graph.cool as the backend. I'm also okay in python.<p>So am I Technical enough to be a Technical Co-founder? I have a potential non-technical co-founder lined up to start the business with. ====== byoung2 Kinda depends on what you're building...for a todo list app, definitely, for an autonomous robot that performs brain surgery, maybe not. ~~~ Blackstone4 Fair point - it would be a data intensive investor portal which also serves up PDFs. My goal further down the line is to have advanced analytics but the initial services would be fairly rudimentary and I feel like I could build it..... it just might take longer ------ sharemywin Are you technical enough to build the MVP then I don't see the problem? ~~~ Blackstone4 Yeah I think I could build an okay MVP. It wont be shiny but it'll work ------ Blackstone4 Any constructive advice would be more than welcome	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
BrainfuckJS – Hide JavaScript behind <\|> characters - develix https://github.com/felixmaier/BrainfuckJS ====== hk__2 The name is confusing, one would assume it’s a Brainfuck interpreter in JS but it’s not. ------ osconfused fun! wrote something similar a few years ago.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Navigenics Launches Whole-Genome Scan (competing with 23andme and deCODEme) - rms http://www.thinkgene.com/navigenics-launches-whole-genome-scan/ ====== rms A Sequoia backed startup versus a Google backed startup versus a large Icelandic publicly traded unprofitable research institution. It will be interesting how this one plays out. ~~~ motoko Capitalism versus Nepotism versus Socialism Also, John Doerr is on Navigenics board: [http://www.navigenics.com/about/bio/JDoerrBio/nav/BoardDirec...](http://www.navigenics.com/about/bio/JDoerrBio/nav/BoardDirectors/)	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Excelsior JET 16 cancelled and Excelsior moving away from JVM development - pjmlp https://www.excelsiorjet.com/ ====== tannhaeuser Oops, didn't see this one coming. Anyone having insights to share? ~~~ kasperni GraalVM? Have a hard time seeing how they can compete long term with a free (community edition) AOT compiler from Oracle. ~~~ ksec Would it be more accurate to say SubstrateVM? Or is it now called GraalVM Native Image? Anyway this is sad as it brings back lots of memory. In the old days it was only Excelsior and GCJ that were capable of doing AOT Java. It was when Computer were slow, memory were scarce, and JVM is no where near good enough for Desktop Apps. ( Although I think that is still the case today ) Anyway I wish them Good luck. Edit: I wonder why they didn't open source it? ~~~ kasperni > Would it be more accurate to say SubstrateVM? Or is it now called GraalVM > Native Image? So GraalVM is the umbrella project. The part that can compile > ahead-of-time is called the "GraalVM Native Image Generator" > Edit: I wonder why they didn't open source it? I think open sourcing a > complex 20 year old proprietary software product is non-trivial. But yeah I'm sad to see them leave as well. ~~~ bmm6o (The way you formatted this, your answers get lost in the quoted questions)	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Flickr says all Creative Commons photos are exempt from picture limits - Tomte https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/8/18256478/flickr-creative-commons-photos-free-1000-picture-limit-exempt ====== vinniejames It would have been nice if the Flickr data dump kept correct timestamps on your photos. I've now got 5,000 all dated March 2019 :/ ~~~ NKCSS Not sure if it respects it, but maybe encode them in EXIF and update based on the EXIF data again after downloading? ------ stevenwoo FYI, to answer the question in the first paragraph of the article I just did a test upload and it worked on my free account, I have 40,000 photos on Flickr and chose not to continue my Pro account, but I think 99% of my photos had a Creative Commons license. ------ maltelandwehr Do people who care about not-having picture limits still use flickr? ~~~ ghaff Yes. They pay for "Pro" accounts. ------ ghaff It seems to me that the Creative Commons exemption that SmugMug put in place significantly blunted the criticism that they were removing a large quantity of photographs from the digital commons. Personally, I might have preferred that they excluded non-commercial and non- modify variants but, as a practical matter, those probably needed to be included. TBH, I'm not sure why most people who don't want to pay wouldn't just license their photos CC--what percentage of Flickr users are going to sell photos to any meaningful degree--but maybe increasing CC licensing is part of the intent. ~~~ rickyc091 As a hobbyist, I ended up deleting all my photos and closing my account. Had they made this announcement earlier, I would have been happy to put everything as CC. From their cameras popularity graph ([https://www.flickr.com/cameras](https://www.flickr.com/cameras)), I think the popularity of Flickr has died off with Instagram and all the various social networks. The most popular camera phone on there is iPhone 6 (2014). For point and shoots, it's the first generation RX100 (2012). ~~~ zimpenfish > I think the popularity of Flickr has died off with Instagram For me it was because uploading a photo to Instagram was a trivial process (launch app, pick photo, type words, done) in an app that felt nice - Flickr's iOS app was awful. That combined with Flickr's incessant need to dick around with the UI/UX and break things lost me pretty quickly. This year I won't be renewing my Pro. ------ fmli Great. Too bad Verizon pre-paid still caps my data plan. Now, if all Flickr network traffic (ads, content, images, resources) were to be exempt from impacting Verizon pre-paid data plan bandwidth allowances, that might _almost_ be something.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Should BP Nuke its Leaking Well? - duncanj http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=bp-nuke-oil-well ====== ErrantX An ex BP oil engineer (who I know) used the following words when I asked him about it: _dear god no, it would be horrific_ His opinion is that the geology in the region would not take a massive explosion well and the most likely result (he admits it _could_ plug/slow the well) would be a large number of cracks/channels deep underground that would seep up through the sea floor and be pretty much unstoppable. ~~~ bradleyland The problem with questions like this is that you need knowledge from a variety of areas in order to offer a well informed answer. I mean, how much can a BP oil engineer know about exploding a nuclear bomb underground? I'd imagine that there are only a handful of scientists around the globe who have worked directly with exploding nuclear devices, and even fewer who have studied the effects such explosions on underwater geology. There are entire fields of study dedicated to the effects of explosions on geology, but they deal with relatively small explosions, and the results simply don't scale to things like 30 kiloton nuclear detonations. For me, this is what makes the answer a "no". We simply do not know what the results will be. There aren't enough trustworthy experts. As much as relations have improved with Russia, I don't think we can trust their advice in this situation. From a policy perspective, they have a history of putting results before safety. ~~~ ErrantX I am told that there has been occasions when explosions are used to either break or cap wells - not this deep (as you say). But the point is that there is experience in such an activity; and those people seem to be pretty much saying the same as yourself (we don't have the experience) ------ jimfl _"I don't know what BP is waiting for, they are wasting their time."_ I don't think it is really up to BP whether or not to set off a nuclear bomb in the Gulf of Mexico, even if they happened to have one in their repertoire. ~~~ brown9-2 And after their mismanagement of this crisis, thank God corporations aren't allowed to possess nuclear weapons. ~~~ amock Do you really believe that governments are more responsible than corporations? What do governments manage better than corporations? When something does go wrong at least corporations can be held responsible while governments can claim sovereign immunity, like the Mexican oil company did with <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ixtoc_I_oil_spill> . ~~~ jbooth When talking about _nuclear fucking weapons_??? Are you serious? ------ jacquesm The short answer: no. The slightly longer answer: no, they can't, only the US government could do that and nobody is going to sign off on the risks associated with possible side effects of doing this. <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peaceful_nuclear_explosions> What could possibly go wrong ? ------ jbooth No, but I'm strongly in favor of a plan to nuke the moon. That thing's been looking at me the wrong way for years now. ~~~ code_duck I've long had that pegged as the ultimate terrorist act. Wait, wasn't that the plot of Superman 2 or something? ~~~ jbooth I think a James Bond villain tried to draw his name on the moon. ~~~ warfangle I know Chairface did in an episode of The Tick... he only managed to write "CHA" though. ------ stuaxo [comic store guy] Worst. Idea. Ever. [/comic store guy] ------ kmfrk > __Prof Ershaghi says: __"A nuclear blast would not fuse the pipe under the > cooling effect of water but rather would create a crater and would make it > impossible to control the flow." <http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/us_and_canada/10268979.stm>. ------ locopati [http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dk-matai/gulf-of-mexico- danger...](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dk-matai/gulf-of-mexico-danger- of_b_619095.html) That this is even a remote possibility suggests that, no, big explosions should not be used. 1 in 10^9 is still too risky. ------ alanh tl;dr: Some cigar-smoking fat cat with a history in the nuclear industry, as well as assuredly well-read bloggers, consider the nuke the ultimate solution to a very thorny problem. ------ bl4k BP are so incompetent that they can not even control a robot without hitting something, nor place a cap over the leak, nor even accurately estimate how much oil is leaking. Giving them a nuclear weapon is not a good idea. ~~~ PostOnce Probably harder than it sounds. Analogy: Look at that stupid NBA guy. All he has to do is throw the ball in the hoop. How hard can that be? Jeez, how incompetent. :P ~~~ mkramlich It's more like BP has 100's of world-class NBA basketball players at their disposal, and billions of dollars of cash to pay for equipment and basketball training, and yet not one of their basketball players has been able to make this basket. wiff. wiff. this will certainly work. wiff. optimistic this will work. wiff. it's under control. wiff. i just want my life back. wiff. :) ~~~ PostOnce Ha. Good point. However, I read a comment somewhere whose author mused that BP probably invests heavily in the discovery & extraction department, and very little in cleanup. May or may not be true, sounds plausible. ------ sliverstorm Why am I not surprised a Russian is proposing a nuclear solution? I swear, Russia and nuclear goes together like peanut butter and jelly. ~~~ PostOnce That's a fairly one-dimensional view of Russia. ------ winternett I think its amazing how with all the Ivy League Scientists that have been thrown at this leak, none have managed to effect a brilliant solution to this problem that can actually work. Maybe we need to rethink exactly what qualifies someone as smart in this world. They had Bill Nye, James, Cameron, and even Kevin Costner there. LOL. Despite the enormous pool of intelligence that now collects BP checks for failing to "solve" this problem, only the most basic juvenile and idiotic suggestions emerge, like Nuking the drill site. Wow. Megafailure.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Lost My Doggie - Service Helps Find Lost Pets - srveit http://www.lostmydoggie.com/ ====== srveit I got a call from this service on behalf of one of my neighbors who lost his dog. I went to look at the service and though that this was a great idea. It appears to be a fully automated service that combines a request form, a GEO database, a telephone number database, and an automatic calling service. I think this is a great example of startup that a one or two person team could build by combining several existing web services to satisfy an existing need. ------ YCW10 This service seems in line with Magic Jack and WebKinz. Software designed for lower tech experiences people who value utility, but not a pure pixel based experience. This class of startup is really interesting. From what I've read MagicJack could do $100MM in revenue and WebKinz is a cash factory throwing off $750MM per year. Both utilize software, but it isn't the lead aspect of the service. These companies really fly under the radar relative to the other hot startups of the day. ReadWriteWeb covers them to some degree, but it is an area that deserves a LOT more coverage. ------ angusdavis This is a great example of a business where the revenue opportunity when sold as an insurance policy may be much higher than when sold as a per- incident/per-claim service. Reposition as lost pet insurance, with differing rates based on type of pet, age of pet, whether or not pet has a homeagain RFID implant, etc. Perhaps also offer a standard response or a premium response, where the standard includes robocalls, craigslist posting, notification to local pet shelters/SPCA/dog catcher; premium level includes posting 'lost dog' flyers in local area using craigslist-recruited 'street teams.' Sell it through vets, a PetCo partnership, dogster.com, etc. $29/year or something affordable like that. Get a special tag and everything "this pet protected by Pet Guardian" or whatever. See also AAA, TowBoat/US, Lifelock for insurance programs that target unlikely bad things like broken down car, grounded boat, or stolen identity. "Do you care enough about your doggie to protect him with Pet Guardian?" Market size is big: 60% of American households own pets. If just 0.50% of these pet-owning households bought lost pet insurance @ $29/year, that's an $8mm/yr business. If you got 3% of the market, it's $50 mm/yr. ~~~ hughprime I don't think many people want to buy insurance whose maximum possible payout comes down to a couple of hundred bucks. People generally only insure against risks which they can't afford. ~~~ patio11 Except for health insurance, where people insure against the risk that they're going to go to the doctor for a routine annual checkup this year. (Other people have said it better than me: its like submitting a claim against your car insurance to pay for an oil change.) ------ frou A custom mouse cursor on a website! Haven't seen that in a while. ------ snewe What about the new law about robo-calling? Will they be affected by that? ~~~ nopassrecover Well something perhaps relevant from the FAQ: LostMyDoggie.com, LLC is classified and registered as an exempt organization by the DNC, thus we can phone your neighbors who are on the Do Not Call List. ------ wheels Looks like an amazing opportunity for spammers to hammer a specific neighborhood ... or for teens to crank call the whole neighborhood. ~~~ nopassrecover The cost would prohibit teenagers. How effective would: "Your neighbour "Buy lots of Acme products" has lost their dog." be? ~~~ wheels Once I had a job in high school I can say that a fair bit of my friends' collective budget was directed into the prank fund. $125 to spread unscrupulous rumors regarding our school principal to 750 homes would not have deterred us. ------ Tichy I've been wondering, couldn't missing pets be tracked with dogs? Like they could find them via their smell? ~~~ there search and rescue dogs (and bomb/drug sniffing dogs) have to have a lot of training, and i'm sure they are quite pricey to hire out. also, since a lost pet is probably roaming around quite a bit vs. a missing person that is lying in a ditch, they are probably quite hard for another dog to track reliably.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Beating Interpolation Search & Binary Search - DrJosiah http://dr-josiah.blogspot.com/2010/06/beating-interpolation-search-binary.html ====== 16s Try boost::unordered_set. You'll average O(1) time. We just converted an app that was using binary_search on a sorted std::vector to boost::unordered_set and the time difference was dramatic, especially on larger containers, but slightly slower on small ones: 1 string: binary_search (28 seconds) unordered_set (36 seconds) 1,000,000 strings: binary_search (127 seconds) unordered_set (60 seconds) ~~~ DrJosiah boost::unordered_set is an in-memory hash table, not unlike std::hash_set (which may save you some download/link time). Note that the blog post discusses your options when your data is too large to fit in memory. Most hash tables operate under the assumption (based on good hashing and probing algorithms) that hashed key collisions are somewhat common. If one were to apply hashing to this problem (data on disk), the data file would necessarily grow (hash tables rely on empty space to reduce the probability of collisions), and would still require at least 1 disk seek+read, but likely more depending on the characteristics of the particular hashing algorithm used. Actually, since the original problem specified uses md5s as the key, arguably the best hash probe sequence and chaining would be something similar to interpolation search; which the index still beats. ------ kragen This is more or less the approach used by Lucene and a few toy search engines I've written over the years, including, most recently, dumbfts. ------ z92 tl;dr: use B-Tree indexes. ~~~ DrJosiah I mention that in the post, get specific with the characteristics of the particular B+Tree that we just constructed, and even link off to the relevant Wikipedia entry. :) ~~~ z92 Then the tldr is right. Not sure why the down votes though.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Micro-tweet – The Twitter Client that Fits in a Tweet (Python) - coderdude http://w-shadow.com/blog/2010/08/10/micro-tweet/ ====== eddiegroves Reminds me of: [http://stackoverflow.com/questions/284797/hello-world-in- les...](http://stackoverflow.com/questions/284797/hello-world-in-less- than-20-bytes/284898#284898) ------ dtran I'm fairly sure at least the posting tweets part of this won't work anymore since basic auth was turned off a few months ago. It looks like this was posted not too long before basic auth was turned off though. ~~~ pepijndevos So, who will write the first OAuth Twitter client in 140 chars? ~~~ th0ma5 well, you wouldn't really, or it would be the same code as presented here without the login information. oauth credentials are pulled from constants, a security file, or the environment, so it is just a different paradigm, but the code is actually just a little simpler, it is devoid of most login logic other than passing the keys. ------ tptacek "import twitter"? ~~~ coderdude From the article: "And yes, I’m aware that using a pre-existing library to interface with the Twitter API might be considered “cheating”, but it would be downright impossible to fit the script into the size constraints without it. The API endpoint URLs alone would probably be long enough to push the script over the limit." Edit: Before this turns into a gauntlet[1], I'm simply quoting the article so that people don't think the author is oblivious to this fact. [1] [http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?o2=&o0=1&...](http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?o2=&o0=1&o7=&o5=&o1=1&o6=&o4=&o3=&s=gauntlet&i=3&h=0000#c) ~~~ jpiet And that is exactly why this doesn't make sense at all... it's just not possible to code it with these few lines. ------ alanh Reminds me of Tweet MVC, a PHP model-view-controller framework a former co- worker created for fun. Each component (like “model”) is 140 or fewer characters. It definitely doesn’t follow many best practices ;) <https://github.com/tweetmvc/tweetmvc-core> (But hey, `import twitter as t`? Abstract things enough and any super-simple program can be 140 characters) ------ est How to draw an owl[1] like a master 1\. declare some consts and vars 2\. import owl; print owl.new() [1]: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1952712> ------ ElbertF My best attempt (jQuery): $.getJSON('http://api.twitter.com/1/statuses/user_timeline.json?screen_name=ElbertF&callback=?',function(json){alert(json[0].text)}) The long API URL alone makes it pretty much impossible to make something useful, this "client" simply gets the latest tweet and can't post updates. Not much of a client, I know. ------ OwlHuntr Brilliant! I tweeted it as soon as I read it.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Join the open source uBiome GitHub repository for microbiome data and tools - accarmichael http://www.ubiomeblog.com/invitation-to-join-the-ubiome-github-repository/ ====== ahmetbb Been watching this story rise since the beginning. No comments left, nobody pays attention, even the title is out of place (what is joinong a repo anyway??). I think there's some magic behind the points this is getting on HN. :-) ------ bonobo3000 Has anyone here derived actionable insight from their microbiome data? I sampled my gut and sure I can see its pretty far off from the average (e.g 51% Bacteroidetes compared to 22.5% average) but err so what? Google brought up a few studies related to microbiomes but there doesn't seem to be any real answer on what a "good" microbiome is, or how deviations from normal are linked to other diseases, how much is dependent on diet (a lot i would think). ~~~ tridint To begin with, the reproducibility of your sample is in question - [https://mrheisenbug.wordpress.com/2014/04/24/dear- american-g...](https://mrheisenbug.wordpress.com/2014/04/24/dear-american-gut- ubiome-you-have-some-explaining-to-do/) The resolution from uBiome data is also 16s, and (likely) too low to yield good information. There is no definition of a good microbiome. The research is still in its infancy. Attempting to 'improve' your microbiome would likely be a mistake. The upside is that you may have contributed by paying uBiome. ------ chaosfox I don't think github (or even git) is ideal for raw data storage. [https://help.github.com/articles/conditions-for-large- files/](https://help.github.com/articles/conditions-for-large-files/) ~~~ emdagon Actually, the repo isn't intended to store data whatsoever. It's for publishing tools (scripts mostly) anybody can use to peek into their own data (provided by uBiome). ------ r3bl I really don't see the relevance of this blog post. What's so important about this story to be shared here? ------ br0_grammar if they wanted to make microbiome data available they could just share some	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Ruining the diversity of JavaScript community with a coding style guide - zdne https://github.com/airbnb/javascript/issues/102 ====== aaronbrethorst My only fear is that people will abuse a single style guide to no end and code will become generic and timeless. Wait, what? This is a _bad_ thing? ~~~ mikko-apo Code style shouldn't change the value of code in any way. If it does something went horribly wrong :) For me code's value comes from what the code does and how elegant the overall implementation is. Code's value definitely doesn't come from formatting or "style". ~~~ Jare Code is not only written and executed, it is also read and modified. Bad, broken or inconsistent style can harm readability, and thus maintainability, which detracts from the value of a codebase. It's often easy to fix compared to bad design or architecture, but it does have a cost. ~~~ mikko-apo Yes definitely, you're right. What I mean is that bad design or bad architecture can take months to fix while most editors can fix formatting automatically with a few clicks. At the same time I prefer my own projects to have very clear and consistent style. I think the original poster (and the topic here) is using way too strong words for such an irrelevant issue. It's airbnb's project, they get have their own opinion. Their style guide won't ruin the Javascript community. Also, the original poster seems to be on a mission of his own. He forked the project @ github, did a few modifications and changed the documentation in a way that conflicts with the original MIT license. Poisonous attacks like that are what destroy communities. [https://github.com/JacksonGariety/javascript/commit/e06e9a46...](https://github.com/JacksonGariety/javascript/commit/e06e9a46b102a3cf83216ff9eb6bcaf76de09c72) ------ stevecooperorg Reminds me of Richard P Gabriel's essay on _Habitability_ (PDF, Page 9, [http://dreamsongs.net/Files/PatternsOfSoftware.pdf](http://dreamsongs.net/Files/PatternsOfSoftware.pdf)) "Habitability is the characteristic of source code that enables programmers, coders, bug-ﬁxers, and people coming to the code later in its life to understand its construction and intentions and to change it comfortably and conﬁdently. Either there is more to habitability than clarity or the two characteristics are diﬀerent. Let me talk a little bit more about habitability before I tackle what the difference may be. "Habitability makes a place livable, like home. And this is what we want in software - that developers feel at home, can place their hands on any item without having to think deeply about where it is. It’s something like clarity, but clarity is too hard to come by." ------ scottdw2 Sigh. Not about the original article, but about the top comment in the original article. It presumes that Picaso, Bansky, and Monet can't paint like each other. Probably not true if you actually have Picaso, Bansky and Monet. In any case, style guides are for hacks, not artists. ~~~ gingerlime I would actually take the "blue period" example as Picaso's own styleguide. By forcing constraints on himself (like a much reduce palette), he got much more creativity out. _" When Picasso purged color from his work, he did so to emphasize the formal autonomy of the picture plane and focus on problems of form."_ [1] Styleguides don't hinder creativity. They help it shine. It simply a set of constraints that help guide you through the creative process. Same as convention-over-configuration. Yes, you are forced to put certain files in a certain folders, but that just saves you time, it does nothing to stop you from being creative. [1][http://galleristny.com/2012/10/from-brush-and-palette-to- pri...](http://galleristny.com/2012/10/from-brush-and-palette-to-printer-and- cartridge-picasso-black-and-white-at-the-guggenheim-wade-guyton-os-at-the- whitney/) ~~~ scottdw2 I won't argue that constraints can lead to innovation. All art exists in some medium. Constraints are therefore inherit. Here's a simple question: what spurred Picaso's decision to paint in Blue? Was it adherence to a protocol describing blue as the answer to his expressive woes, or was it his own internal experimentation with the color blue? Did Picaso paint in blue because he felt like Blue, or because someone said "any work 'submitted' to this gallery must be blue"? ------ yeukhon I am not sure if I want to be harsh and ask why would anyone object to a coding style. If you were coding for your own project, do you not have a specific preference on how the code is written? I think I do. ------ rjknight A code base is a living document, and it changes as it grows and responds to new requirements, or is patched or refactored to fix old bugs. The git log is a history of everything that happened to that code base over its lifetime to date. If that log is full of people committing small style changes because they don't agree with the last guy's position on semi-colons or the use of array literals or how many characters to indent by, then I'd argue that it's actually a less _meaningful_ work. If you're looking for beauty, elegance and meaning in the code, you'll find it in the clear expression of intent that you get when the changes are about function rather than form. Where's the beauty in a "Fixed indenting" commit? What does it tell you other than that someone ran their editor's auto-indenting routine? Adherence to a common style keeps such noise to a minimum, leaving you with a commit history that's full of meaningful changes rather than meaningless thrashing over whether to indent four characters or two, or whether the { goes on the same line as the if (...). ~~~ threeseed Coding styles can often be enforced through automated means before checkin. And even if they can't it is trivial to flatten commits to make style changes disappear. The point of style guides are to leverage best practices and ensure anyone can easily read, understand and modify your code. ------ adamnemecek Wow, he's such a unique snowflake. ------ ahoge Yes, a style guide "ruins" diversity. That's the whole point. ------ mratzloff By contrast, if every language had a correct style and came with a formatting tool for automated enforcement, it would free developers to focus exclusively on things that matter. ------ JacksonGariety Issue author here. I've thought about this quite a bit today and decided style-guides are a necessity, and permissible as long as they are living documents. GitHub's open-source philosophy makes this easy, so I've forked airbnb/javascript to my own variation and strongly encourage others to do the same. JacksonGariety/javascript: [https://github.com/jacksonGariety/javascript](https://github.com/jacksonGariety/javascript) ------ wirrbel Picasso actually knew how to paint "properly" before inventing cubism. We have a weird misconception of "Genius" in our culture, where we think that "Genius" are somehow born with natural talent and skill, while in fact, a lot of them just had a lot of training which enabled them to be Geniuses. ~~~ Jare Picasso said "Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working." ------ ghostdiver I don't think that using single quotes will ruin the diversity. This code style guide is all about some minor stuff, which is rather meaningless. After all this kind of things does not instant make code base good or bad. ~~~ james-skemp On the other hand, a good style guide should also include best practices (this one seems to do that for a number of items) which might not instantly make the code good, but can at least have a positive impact. I always prefer double quotes for strings in JS though. At least for variables, not selectors; seems much more common to have a single quote within a string than a double. ------ iterative Everyone formats their code wrong except for me.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Millions of Women Will Make Fortnite a Billion-Dollar Game - petethomas https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-05-29/millions-of-women-will-make-fortnite-a-billion-dollar-game ====== 282883392 This is a poor article. Props to Fortnite for having a higher percentage of female players, but the article doesn't provide any legit justification for it. An inside source providing vague information doesn't really help the legitimacy of the article. The game isn't as much aimed as females as gender neutral. Without spending money there is a random chance that you play each match as a boy or girl, and the idea that "when you play as a girl character, guys will help you” is complete bs. More important to the games success (and it's higher percentage of women playing) is a lower barrier to entry than other more hardcore games such as PUBG or Battlefield. The game was designed to be easy to get in to, and is available on almost all platforms. This more than anything has led to it's smashing success, not "women characters" ~~~ cfadvan The sad truth is that for all that it seems to be popular here, Bloomberg is a rag and it almost always shows. They start with an agenda and work lazily backwards from that. Fortnite is f2p, and massively popular, and a lot of women play games. Therefore, a lot of women play Fortnite, but that doesn’t support their foregone conclusions or let them shit out an article. Welcome to Bloomberg. ~~~ nerdponx Eh. I don't buy the "women play games" argument. Why weren't they able to write this article about Dota 2? ~~~ tmpz22 They probably could've mentioned exactly that if they took into account South Korea, where gaming is much more engrained in the culture and shows less of a gender divide - but then they would have to do research and gather domain knowledge... ------ kbar13 > Fortnite is also subtly different from existing shooter games, in ways that > may specifically appeal to women more than other titles do. It’s relatively > easy for first-time players, and it looks more cartoonish and less gory than > its rivals. ehhhhhhhhhhh people who weren't really into gaming in the past are all up in fortnite now, male or female. ~~~ hood_syntax The only difference between this and Overwatch going by those criteria is that OW is not as easy for first time players. You've hit it on the head, the key difference is that somehow Fortnite crossed the boundary to mainstream. ~~~ tudelo I wouldn't even say the game is easy... The aiming system rewards good players heavily and the building system requires a lot more actions for a battle than something like pubg. I personally stay away from it because the instant building aspect is too hard and annoying to be fun. I have a feeling the bigger motivation is that its f2p. ~~~ tialaramex The Battle Royale format is _fun_ even if you aren't technically very good. I've written about this before but it does seem to escape even some people who play _why_ this is fun. Normally in shooters the best players dominate the game session you're in. Unless you're one of them, your experience is frustrating because mostly they're either killing you, if they're an opponent, or killing the people you were trying to kill, if the dominating player is your ally. But in Battle Royale modes every game you're in will involve you dying only at most once. For the dominant player they often don't die at all, a game lasts say 20 minutes and they might kill a dozen or more other players out of a hundred, then they're victorious. Hooray - they might do that two or even three times in a row. Amazing way to spend an hour. But somebody like me - who isn't very good - doesn't last twenty minutes. They might win one or two fights, hide, get some cool stuff, but soon they're outmatched and... they die and can immediately start a different game. So for them an hour is maybe 15-20 games, each of them exciting and different, maybe they killed a few people, and the deaths, whilst not _fun_ per se, are over very quickly and you're straight into a different game. In terms of why it would attract women. Everybody else being an anonymous enemy plus the "one death and you're gone" dissolves a lot of nasty abusive social stuff. Global chat would be pointless, you can't spawn camp people, you can't even tell if you see the same person twice usually because players don't have name tags. ~~~ swerveonem The large map when compared to a CS or OW map provides a large variety of environments in which to battle. How many times can you run Dust_2 before you are bored, battle royale you just land in a different part of the map. ------ josefresco But why? From the article it seems the difference was the marketing imagery, inclusion of female avatars, less gore/more cartoon violence, and mobile play. This seems like educated guessing, anyone have better insight? ~~~ ksec I have no idea, PUBG Mobile also had lots more female playing and I asked a few times all they said was "It is very exciting!", the game is basically the same as CS, Battlefield or all other similar shooting game. My guess is that, Mobile has a much lower barrier of entry, no more "computers" installing and set up, spec to play, complex keyboard input etc. It is simple to understand, point and shoot. It takes little time, 15 to 30 min a game. No grinding like WoW. As a matter of fact there are also lots of female playing LoL as well. But I think PUBG Mobile and Fortnite is on another level. And these female players, are a lot more willing to spend on in game clothings! I have a few female friends who never play much mobile games, and couldn't understand why man spend a fortune in a game loot. But the first time they pay PUBG Mobile they decide to buy a nice hat and skirt...... And they asked did we spend all our money on clothing in games... ( Um.. no ) Another point worth pointing out is E-Sport / Gaming has level the playing field of male and female. No longer do genetics and muscle define what can or could not be done. ( Actually they properly still do but much less so then in real world ) And they are actually quite good at aiming and Snipers. ~~~ Someone1234 I'm male, but as someone with a family game developers really under-estimated how important it is to have a game you can jump into for 30 minutes or less at a time. When you have a family, particularly a young one, you have time but not contiguous time. Meaning a 15-30 minute game is possible, a 1-2 hour game is simply not (except perhaps on weekends). Fortnite, Overwatch, and many mobile games do very well at this. AAA games often fail due to the level of grinding just to be on par (e.g. Battlefield, COD) and for single player games it is a mixed bag, some like Far Cry and Breath of the Wild have gameplay elements (like freeing outposts) that lend themselves to short burst of gameplay with a small reward. Millennials are now in our thirties. We have families and kids, we game. There's a market for this. ~~~ ksec This a million times. I asked for this like for nearly a decade. And it seems wired no game studio quite understand this. Oh, and another thing that was lost in the 20 years we grown up as millennials. Games are suppose to be FUN. Fun Fun, something we enjoy, not for wasting our time. Nowadays most games are graphics showcase, poor game play, little story line, and mostly for hardcore gamers. Zelda is fun, may be more so then before, but it is now an even rarer breed. ------ matt_s It would have been great if they took the time to interview a few female players of Fortnite for the article. It would have provided some perspective into what pulls them into the game. Is it celebrities that play? character skins? social elements like emotes? The casual-ness of the game I think pulls in a wider spectrum of people. Casual meaning you don't need to understand RPG elements, deep story or history, achievements to move ahead, etc. You just download and play and everyone is on a level playing field. ------ GuB-42 It there any backing behind the "findings" of that articles. Ok, they say that the proportion of women playing Fortnite is higher that usual for the genre, which is nice. However, the rest of the article talks about player avatars. If it matched the player base, then Dead or Alive would be played almost exclusively by women... Also look at Overwatch, the most iconic characters like Tracer, Widowmaker and D.Va are female, Tracer is even a lesbian. But still, it doesn't seem to have a lot of influence on the player base. ~~~ omfgwhat Do you play Overwatch? Anecdotes follow from someone that's gamed for 25+ years (I'd love to see data). On PC at least, the amount of female players is astounding. Most (not all) play Mercy, which seems to be a mix of she's easy to play for new gamers, plus she's female. Followed by DVA. ~~~ tmpz22 I've noticed the same thing but Overwatch is NOT a good game for casual or novice gamers because a large percentage of games involve someone getting upset in team chat, blaming others, huge amounts of negativity, and the occasional troll spewing racial slurs. ------ FrozenVoid More indepth article from Kotaku [https://kotaku.com/fortnite-mobile-is- becoming-a-battle-of-t...](https://kotaku.com/fortnite-mobile-is-becoming-a- battle-of-the-sexes-1824109975) ------ FussyZeus > In an industry known for high levels of testosterone, Fortnite has become > the hottest game going partly because of its appeal to an unlikely cohort: > women. It's worth noting that women have always enjoyed video games, that the hyper- testosterone driven marketing was an invention to get young boys interested in games after the huge video game crash. Ever since then appealing to young males has been the default because no big players wanted to rock the boat and mess with a good thing, and as a formerly young male, I was catered to hard and frankly it's gotten old. I'd love to see some new blood in the industry, and especially to stop feeling cringey when I watch game reveal shows featuring faux-masculinity, booth babes, and the rest of the pandering nonsense. Fortnite is obviously a very casual game. Not saying that's good or bad, that's up to your taste, but it having mass market appeal is not an accident, that's what it was _designed_ for. The fact that people find it so shocking how wide it's appeal is when it was basically _designed to be widely appealing_ is somewhat disconcerting. ~~~ zrobotics How is it still possible that so much of game's marketing budgets are still almost exclusively aimed at male players? For example, Fallout 4 has the creative building, storytelling, and (much more so in New Vegas, but even in 4) it is to your advantage to play a female character due to perks. And yet I don't see any marketing stills with a female PC in the first page of Google image search. This is anecdotal, but I have two female friends who both continue to play skyrim, but never tried any of the fallout games. The saddest part is the very vocal outcries any time a studio tries to appeal to women. Sure, pandering is bad, but there's a wide difference between pandering and what epic games is doing. Plus, a bonus is that inclusive marketing also seems to attract more 'non-gamers' in general,leading to their current throne of cash. ~~~ ravenstine Have you had the same thought about why purses, hand bags, dresses, and floral scents are exclusively marketed to women? ~~~ FussyZeus Purses, Hand bags: Because women's clothing is atrocious with regard to pockets of usable size. Dresses: Because women traditionally wear dresses, however, you do find Kilts on the man-centered end of the spectrum. Floral scents: I love floral scents and find most scented products intended for male consumption to be ludicrous, insulting to my intelligence, and obvious marketing pandering put up around the same Axe-scented products. Also if you buy tactical bath wipes, you're pathetic until the end of time. There's nothing un-manly about wanting to be freaking CLEAN and smell nice. ~~~ ravenstine No, that's not why men don't wear women's clothing. Those are complains women have about their own clothing(and they're right!). Men don't go walking around with hand bags and purses in general, in fact I'd guess 99% of the time. Messenger bags don't count. Yes, there are kilts, but the vast, vast majority of men would never wear kilts casually. I should rephrase that by "without exception", I mean the "vast majority of the time". There's a reason that products marketed specifically towards men feature dull/drab colors and tend not to have floral scents. I don't blame you for how you feel about the products you prefer to use; I happen to buy products from Lush, which have flowery scents that are nose-numbing. Still, I don't think that the vast majority of men would use such products. Then again, if the color of the product was army green and came in bullet casings... maybe. ------ bovermyer What strikes me as weird is that I liked the Fortnite that came before Fortnite - that is, the co-op survival mode, not the battle arena mode. When people talk about "Fortnite," they almost always mean the latter. I'd be curious to see how the battle arena demographics compare to the co-op demographics. ------ taurath There’s been a good 20+ years of marketing games only to males - if it’s finally turning so that there’s not a huge social pressure for any popular game to be a “guys only” thing, especially in gradeschool then this is a momentous occasion. ~~~ jerf There's already substantial markets for games marketed to women, played mostly by women, oftimes made by women. If you are not aware of them... well... perhaps you are simply not in the target market and have never received that marketing. It's true that they aren't the AAA games, but... I think the AAA marketplace is substantially skewed by a vicious cycle in which AAA games are expensive to make, because AAA have to be expensive to make, or big companies that make AAA games wouldn't be able to defend their turf against the indies, so AAA games are expensive to make. I wouldn't use the over-used term "bubble" per se, but I think AAA games is a very distorted market right now and I'm not sure said distortion can support too much broad sociological analysis. ~~~ taurath There are plenty, and I’m very aware of them having worked in the industry - I’m mostly pointing to AAA “Core” gamers (+ esports related gamers) which has been male-dominated for mostly historical reasons at this point. An example would be something like Rocket League - there’s only 1 pro that’s a woman, but there’s no reason the game couldn’t appeal. The core gaming segment is ever so slowly getting dragged to not being a boys only zone. ------ xenihn Starsiege: Tribes had both male and female avatars before it was cool. I miss it so much. The successors are all dead player-wise. ------ myroon5 I think the game being free attracts a lot more casual gamers, myself included ------ cuddlypsycho What is the problem with making games that appeal to a niche? I'd often find games that try to appeal to everybody end up pissing everyone off in the end. ------ to_bpr Will make it a billion dollar game? Is it not a fad, likely to die out like any other? ~~~ Reedx Popular multiplayer games like this can have very strong staying power, especially if they become eSports. It's not a minor diversion like Flappy Bird. It'll probably last a long time yet. Though anything could happen - a number of Battle Royale games have come and gone. But they've tended to live on shaky ground and make player hostile decisions, whereas Epic has a very solid engine/platform and they make better decisions.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Dilbert on Startups - sanj http://www.dilbert.com/fast ====== sundeep meh.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Spotify U.S. Launch Could Be Days Away - digiwizard http://www.macobserver.com/tmo/article/spotify_u.s._launch_could_be_days_away/ ====== kleiba _Spotify’s streaming music service is popular in Europe [...]_ To be more precise: in _some_ European countries. It is, e.g., not available in France, Germany, Italy, Switzerland, Austria, Belgium,... to name a few! It's pretty sweet that the service will be available in the US, but I bet the rest of Europe wouldn't mind either.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Maryland company files with FDA drug that cures AIDS - myrandomcomment https://www.nbc4i.com/news/local-news/medical-company-believes-they-have-the-cure-for-hiv-aids/ ====== janvidar Thanks, I feel both valued and safe now. The site says: "Our European visitors are important to us. This site is currently unavailable to visitors from the European Economic Area while we work to ensure your data is protected in accordance with applicable EU laws." ~~~ akie Yeah, it's very disingenuous, what they actually should say is "You can't use our services your government asked us to be considerate about your personal data, and you are not important enough to make that happen" ~~~ big_chungus Not exactly. It's an American company not trying to go to market in the EU; why would it invest in legal compliance with European regs? Even were the company to not store any data, there are lots of compliance steps which companies must take to _prove_ they are operating within the law. In these circumstances, it doesn't make sense to work on European compliance. ~~~ oliwarner You've missed the point. If they've no interest in going "to market" in the EU, why lie about European visitors being valued? What you've said isn't inaccurate, it's just not relevant to the message that Europeans are shown. ------ Someone1234 The posted title elevates the claims over the original article: > Medical company believes they have the cure for HIV/AIDS HK title (at time of posting): > Maryland company files with FDA drug that cures AIDS Ignoring the fact that the post title erroneously removed "HIV" it also made it misleading with the "cure" claim. Even the company themselves claim less than the title: > we think our project may be able to do that. So, yes, exciting drug trial. But let's hold off on proclaiming this has "cured" HIV/Aids until we're there. ~~~ exikyut The title is indeed editorialization. ------ entee They are submitting an IND, which is great but they still have Phase 1, 2 and 3 to go. It's also a cell therapy so if it works, it's likely to be quite expensive to receive. That said, if it works, it's a wonderful breakthrough that will hopefully spur others. ------ eli Pretty irresponsible way to frame this story, which is about a drug that has never touched a human patient. Lots of HIV/AIDS drugs or even “cures” have made it much farther than this. ------ WilTimSon I'd be very happy if it turned out to be true but, for now, there are no real details (at least in the article) and there's quite a ways to go before it reaches approval. Best to see how this unfolds before jumping the gun with celebrations. ------ andrewstuart Title should be "cures HIV/aids". "Cures aids" is not the same thing by a long shot. ------ wintorez I hope the same method could be applied to cure other viral diseases as well. ------ MrEldritch Here's a response to this article: [https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2019/11/11/to...](https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2019/11/11/tone- it-down) It's a bit disingenuous to be talking about a "cure" before you've tried something in a single human being. ------ buboard hopefully there will be a lot more similar filings , because this is not even in phase 1 ------ jamisteven Headline is highly misleading. ------ jinushaun Assuming this is a real cure for HIV, I’m curious what this will do to the HIV/AIDS charity industry. Would we still have “run for the cure”? Will red ribbons still mean AIDS? ~~~ eli Google the history of the March of Dimes ~~~ Ensorceled That's a great example! They switched to supporting polio victims and then, eventually, became a general disabled persons support charity.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Racial Diversity In Tech By The Numbers - stephen_greet https://www.beamjobs.com/diversity/racial-diversity-in-tech ====== rcatcher It seems at the same time white employees are under-represented in tech overall (see Racial distribution of tech employees relative to US population). ------ curiousgal As a PoC, who the f cares. Fix the root of the issue. Anyone can point at the fruits and say they're bad but that doesn't fix anything. ~~~ stephen_greet Ya, I agree it doesn't fix anything. I think that the first step in addressing the issue is to have companies be more open with this data so you can actually track if things are changing for the better. That's my goal with this article. ~~~ nathanaldensr I think defining "for the better" is the contention, not the existence or visibility of the data. There are people who say that a workforce must be exactly proportionate to the racial makeup of the population. There are people that say no, we need more minorities to be hired to make up for injustice. There are people that say no, it should be purely meritocratic. Resolving this tension is key IMO. ~~~ stephen_greet That's a fair point. Personally I've been convinced by research that diversity improves business and financial performance. Value of diversity in leadership: [https://www.mckinsey.com/business- functions/organization/our...](https://www.mckinsey.com/business- functions/organization/our-insights/is-there-a-payoff-from-top-team- diversity#) Another article: [https://hbr.org/2018/07/the-other-diversity- dividend](https://hbr.org/2018/07/the-other-diversity-dividend) ------ somethoughts It's interesting - mentally I break up "Tech" companies into many subdivisions. I think the Tech-Tech portion of a "Tech"company (i.e. SW engineers, chip designers) is probably decently good at being a meritocracy. If you have a decent track record of being able to code/implement/ship features that are on-spec with few defects, on time, with a decent attitude, its a gross generalization but some company out there will probably hire you - particularly if you have a solid GitHub profile and recs. And if you don't feel the urge to grow career wise outside of Tech-Tech then you'll be fine although your pay/leadership opportunities will probably reach a ceiling. But a "Tech" company also consists of Tech-Sales, Tech-Finance, Tech-Law, Tech-Marketing, Tech-VC, Tech-Management, Tech-Product Management, Tech- Management. All of these other subdivisions that make up the rest of a "Tech" company are actually much more like their counterparts in non-"Tech" companies with all their much more plentiful issues of bias, discrimination and harassment. Perhaps this is because a lot of the work is even less measurable on binary terms and therefore graded based on subjective reviews by existing leadership who as humans that have biases. They are also outward facing where you have to deal with existing biases of society. ~~~ xsmasher >I think the Tech-Tech portion of a "Tech"company (i.e. SW engineers, chip designers) is probably decently good at being a meritocracy. I don't think that's true at all. Engineers are not some sect of logical beings that don't have human emotions and foibles. I think they're just as likely to be discriminatory as anyone else. ------ JMTQp8lwXL Part of the issue is lack of entry-level positions. When everybody is hiring seniors, you're competing with the same existing pool of talent. You need to grow the talent pool. ------ randyrand Comparing to US population is a bit disingenuous when good tech jobs are not available in most of the country. ------ naveen99 Good, now run the numbers for the world... us is a melting pot for the world after all and projects power and currency all over the world. May as well project social justice for all as well. ------ sreekotay This is a great but how does everyone put half the worlds population under "Asian"??! Lol. ~~~ bzb3 Well... It's a race right? ;) Personally I think racial divisions are stupid. Cultural divisions are much more exact and useful ~~~ apta Chinese, Nepalese, Indians, Turkics, Armenians, Arabians, Jews, Iranians etc. are all "Asians". ------ 25mph Tech leadership really means the middle management, i.e. folks hired to manage the line workers. Wait until they find out about the race of most capital owners!	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Ask HN: How do you close your side projects? - andrewgrossi I have worked on various side projects involving design, development, music, etc. over time and generally kept the remnants living on somewhere (DropBox folders, word docs, random repositories). I like to have reference for nostalgia or to reflect on the lessons learned before my next pursuit. Recently, I have been considering creating a blog or documenting the key parts like screenshots along with a write up recap in an Archive folder somewhere and then purging the content such as code, mockups, assets, etc. I would partially like to write a post-mortem about a side startup but the rest are not as valued.<p>I was just curious if you have any personal examples or practices for closing out your cancelled or completed projects (Archive - Purge - Blog Post - Open Source - viking send-off)? ====== Cyphase > and then purging the content such as code, mockups, assets, etc. Why? I would never destroy anything I'd created like that. Unless you're doing it for some sort of closure, the way people throw things into the ocean in books and movies, I don't see the benefit. On the con side, you never know when you might start it back up, or just have some use for it. More than once I've gone back to a project I hadn't touched in years and either used it again (e.g. a "one-off" utility script), or just copied pieces of it to use in something current. I think open sourcing something you're done with (that wasn't already open source) is a great idea in general. ~~~ adtac Although bear in mind that open sourcing it might require you to spend some time on the project answering to bug reports and stuff. You might not even intend to add any new features, but if someone else comes in with a new PR, you'll probably (atleast I will) be inclined to review it out of courtesy. Do this for enough projects and you'll be spending a considerable chunk of your time on the weekends on this. However you might, of course, choose to ignore everything: bug reports, new PRs, users asking for help, everything. ~~~ mikekchar I wouldn't worry about it. I have _tons_ of free software projects that nobody has ever asked about :-) My one project that had a significant number of users (a Japanese language drill program) I recommended that people move to Anki. I occasionally get people asking about various things, but it is never more than I can handle in an adhoc way. I suspect most other people will be the same. Wildly successful side projects are the exception, not the norm. ------ MaulingMonkey My original method was to just move my project to I:\home\projects\dead. After accumulating a few hundred of these, I started going back and reviewing what I'd accumulated - a short one-line description, and a screenshots folder, following a naming convention under a ".projnfo" folder (description.txt, visibility.txt, screenshots\\*.png, etc.), with a quick program to accumulate these into a single HTML page overview. My latest iteration of this actually adds shortcut links to launch VS, git shells, etc. and dynamically updates, but ditched the screenshots (for now): [http://i.imgur.com/gbj1Cr5.png](http://i.imgur.com/gbj1Cr5.png) . I keep telling myself I'll eventually spin off a public version of that page, but so far I haven't. But a common goal: Make it absolutely trivial/low friction to give something a quick summary. Most recently, I'm now also trying to embrace the idea of "always be shipped (tm)" as a means of combating my tendency to get hung up on perfectionism - in the most extreme form, this means a public github project and an empty initial commit is my first push, the second commit maybe adds something that's actually usable, and the third commit is a .nuspec so I can package it and reuse it at a whim (completely ignoring the question of if it's even worth reusing.) This also encourages me to pick up an old project against instead of rewriting a whole "new and improved" version - easier to just fix the old one than go through all the effort of .nuspec s and new github projects etc etc etc... and in this state, "closing" a project is a simple matter of no longer committing to it. No cleanup necessary before making it public - it already was public! I still have some projects that I never make public, or only make a github page public for though. ~~~ sigi45 Cool, always had a smiliar idea, just didn't do it yet. ------ nfriedly I usually push things to GitHub. When I replace my laptop every 3-5 years, I'll download the things I want to work on and leave the rest. I also try to always put up a paragraph or two and maybe a screenshot on nfriedly.com/portfolio. My projects are rarely "done", but "good enough to include in my portfolio" is a major milestone that often coincides with when I stop working on it so much. ------ amenghra For code: create a readme (for your future self) that documents the state of things and dump the whole folder/project on github. Often times, you'll have a hard time running old stuff you wrote (finding the same versions of the compiler/libraries/tools/etc.) so try to vendor your dependencies if that's an option. Even if you can't run your code down there road, having the source file can be a fun read or useful. For non-code stuff: convert to a plain file, PDF or screenshot and file it away in your Dropbox/Google drive/whatever. ------ chvid It takes work to prevent things not just die due to oblivion and inactivity. I had a bunch of Java applet computer games that ran for more than a decade but eventually were killed by applets becoming obsolete. I ended doing the following: 1\. Putting all code on github. 2\. Making a series of youtube videos of the gameplay. 3\. Writing a blog post. Obviously this was a lot of work; but so was creating the games. It felt good doing the "archive" of them even though no one else cares. I suppose it is a bit organising a box of old photos; makes you think about what you have been doing. ~~~ chvid And also: Publish it. Eventhough no-one will use it; this forces you (at least that's how I work) to make things look decent. Make sure you code actually compiles and it is complete. ------ everdev Keep all the code, mockups, assets, etc. Running a web dev/design shop for 6 years, many clients have come back even years later asking for a specific file, or a small variation in an old asset. I kept the code on GitHub and the assets on Google Drive. If you want to delete things, send the client the .zip archive first so the ball is in their court when they need something from the past. I didn't put too much value in post mortems or recaps. ------ cyberferret I am a digital hoarder... I have folders on my hard drive with stuff I created 25 years ago still on there... AND backed up on multiple cloud locations too! ------ Falkon1313 I don't. Mine just lapse into torpor, sometimes indefinitely, but more often I end up cycling back when my interests cycle back around to whatever they were about. They seem to be roughly seasonal. So if I look at created/modified dates on one of my old unfinished projects I'll see something like: file_a 2014-05-04 file_b 2015-04-17 file_c 2016-03-23 Clearly that's something that my mind gets interested in around springtime (for no consciously apparent reason). I wrote it in one language in 2014, redesigned it in 2015, and rewrote it in a different language last year. Who knows what I'll do with it this year or next? I don't purge because I know I'm likely to want to take it up again, or at least pluck part of it out to use in something new. ------ xena I personally have a repo full of old code and move projects there once I'm done with them: [https://github.com/Xe/code](https://github.com/Xe/code) ~~~ stewbrew Why'd you want to do that? You loose your history etc. ~~~ ozim I don't understand that fixation on "history", it was helpful couple of times to find who did change and if there is ticketing system with attached ticket then I get some context. But bunch of diffs does not matter and for side project that I am doing on my own what I care for is current state not that I changed name of class and then changed it again two days later. Maybe I am missing something? ------ rythie Do film directors delete their old films? Musicians delete their old music? Photographers delete their old photos? Why would you delete your old code? ------ Mz When I was a homeschooling parent, it occurred to me that kids in public school were "done" when the school year ended, even if they had not read every page of every textbook issued to them. Up until then, we had been struggling with this sense of failure or something for not finishing all textbooks or whatever. After that, I began deciding on certain metrics for "done" and then coming up with small rituals to give us all closure. When they were no longer below grade level, I had them pack up the phonics program they hated so I could mail it to their cousin. That way they knew they were "done" and could be happy with it. You can do whatever floats your boat here. You are probably the best judge of which pieces have residual value worth preserving in some manner and which things are just basically leeching your time, energy, mental space and hard drive space (or whatever). ------ stewbrew I like the idea of creating a memorial blog post. I don't understand though why you mention "open source" as a method. Although some people do this, I don't think github etc. should become graveyards of abandoned projects. Open source should rather be a method of developing a project. (When you're done with it put a note at the top of your README.) WRT to (digital) archiving etc., I'd like to take a slightly different take on that topic: Every project is of limited interest. Sooner or later your interest will wane. Let's organize projects (or rather their digital artifacts) in a way that incorporates this fact. E.g. put all files related to project X, you created this year, into "Projects/2017/X" and create a symlink to that folder in "Projects/now", where you keep your references to projects that you're working on now. No need to archive anything later on. Just remove the symlink. ~~~ TAForObvReasons > I don't think github etc. should become graveyards of abandoned projects. > Open source should rather be a method of developing a project. Ending a project by releasing it as open source is a reasonable form of "closure" for the developer. For future viewers, a reasonably well-documented- but-abandoned project still offers insights for future developers to draw from. ------ Walkman I don't understand why should you delete any piece of your work. Disk is so cheap you can keep it forewer. ------ tracker1 Depends on the situation, but generally some fairly bad ideas... "node.js left-pad" and "Mark Pilgrim 410" ------ penagwin I zip it up (makes it easy to manage, especially with node.js) and throw it onto my backup server (With mirroring to B2). ------ szatkus I still keep my high school project online. It's not a lot of effort. [https://www.szatkus.pl/oki/](https://www.szatkus.pl/oki/) [https://github.com/szatkus/oki](https://github.com/szatkus/oki) ------ strin I put code, data and other files on trusted cloud services like Dropbox or Google Drive. I also make a copy on a external hard drive in case any of these cloud services go down one day. A README.md is the essential index to organize the files. ------ dyeje When I finish a side project I check it off my to do list and then put it on my public portfolio. The process is very gratifying. ------ pieterhg I keep the landing page up but show an alert that the project is discontinued. ------ exception_e Archive folder works. Disc space is cheap and plentiful!	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
RIP Pipenv: Tried Too Hard. Do what you need with pip-tools - laktak https://medium.com/telnyx-engineering/rip-pipenv-tried-too-hard-do-what-you-need-with-pip-tools-d500edc161d4 ====== foo101 I really thought that pipenv was an anti-pattern. How hard it is to run "python3 -m venv venv; source venv/bin/activate; pip3 install -r requirements.txt" that one needs to create a whole new tool just to combine these three simple commands together? If it is so hard to just use three commands, just put those three commands in a script or Makefile and move on. I know pip has its own flaws with not-so-great package and dependency management. But does that warrant a whole new tool? Or does that warrant fixing the existing tool?	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Ask HN: Best place for tech blog? - mminer There's no lack of options for a general purpose blog — Medium and Ghost and WordPress all seem great — but it's unclear what the best choice for a tech-focused one is. In particular, I'd like to include code snippets with syntax colouring and embed D3 visualizations. An enjoyable reading experience is the primary concern; ease of authoring less so.<p>Is a static site (say, using GitHub Pages) the best choice? The built-in discovery and sharing features of Medium are attractive, but I'm unsure if a blog about niche programming topics will benefit from them. Any options beyond the mainstream blogging platforms that I should consider? ====== dsacco I run [http://breakingbits.net](http://breakingbits.net), my security consulting blog, on WPEngine. I highly recommend it. Wordpress gets a very bad rap with security but as long as you generally disable comments, are paranoid about plugins and themes, and update as soon as possible, you're about as safe as any other platform. It also gives a very nice platform for customization and development, which unfortunately a lot of blogging platforms don't support. I can quickly sftp or ssh for whatever I need, and setting up Bigfoot.js footnotes was a breeze (among other code snippets). I recommend WPEngine because, while they are a bit pricey, they have generally excellent customer support and take away a lot of the mental overhead of running Wordpress. I first started using them after a glowing recommendation from Patrick McKenzie (patio11). They're also great for managing backups, security updates and plugin safety. The only caveat I can name is that if you want SSL for your blog, you'll need to jump to their second plan or higher. A bit off-topic, but good advice for this is to just generally not stress about it too much. You're not shipping blog posts, and while you'll get consulting leads or job offers from it, it's secondary to your main work. Maximize on content delivery. Find something you're comfortable with and stick with it. ------ matt_s Ease of authoring could affect your posting frequency and dedication to the blog. I recently was in the same dilemma when looking to start a technical blog and looked at Jekyll, Octopress and Ghost. I avoided WordPress because I don't need plugins or pain of setup, etc. and I wanted to host the blog myself. I used Octopress before and was seriously considering it. The problem I had with Octopress (and by relation Jekyll) was the effort to create or edit posts. I had Octopress files locally and would publish via sftp to my server. It just felt clunky and became a barrier. I chose Ghost for my blog and the authoring process is awesome compared to Octopress. Ghost uses Markdown and has a live preview. I can create posts anywhere via authoring on a tablet. Since I'm hosting it myself I feel like I can put other things on my server if I need to (like D3.js, etc.) Now I'm no expert on blogging but I do like using Ghost over the past month or so. If your blog has good content that people find value in, as long as it doesn't have a horrible design then what it looks like won't matter much. ------ rcarmo This is a highly unscientific sampling, but most deep-tech blogs I follow seem to be on gh-pages these days. Medium, less so - I get mostly essays from those. Jekyll gives you a lot of bang for the buck (including making static assets relatively easy to deploy) and Github provides syntax highlighting in their hosted service. The drawbacks (as far as I'm concerned) are that Jekyll is overly temperamental, and that even "modern" site generators like Hugo ([http://gohugo.io](http://gohugo.io)) require switching off too many defaults or tweaking many knobs. Besides, even if you _now_ feel ease of editing is less important, a couple of years down the line it will be paramount. I've long felt the need for something "better" myself, and run my site off a Dropbox-synced folder using a custom engine (which I'm currently re-writing - see demo site at [http://sushy.no-bolso.com](http://sushy.no-bolso.com)). But I'm OK with reinventing my bit of the wheel (it's been nearly 13 years now, so I know what I want from a CMS). ~~~ mminer Regarding editing (and I think you make a good point that ease of editing _is_ important), I often find myself frustrated with WYSIWYG editors that make such a mess of the markup that you end up modifying the raw code anyway. Ghost and GitHub Pages look like they take the right approach by making Markdown the default and not attempting to hide it behind a GUI. ------ akbar501 I switched to Hugo (gohugo.io). It was easy to learn, I use git for revision control, and I have complete control over formatting (including code blocks). I plan to host it starting this week on S3 which involves me scripting the deploy process (which shouldn't be hard given everything is on the command line). The extremely fast builds in Hugo are nice. I have one monitor with my editor and watch my site update instantly in the other. ------ wallflower If you use medium or any other site without your own custom domain, you lose a potential audience. Especially if you have something interesting to say. How many people do you think will click through to the link at the bottom of your medium post? ~~~ mminer I was afraid that the opposite would happen, that hosting on a custom domain gives up traffic that a network like Medium provides. But then, I'm not actually sure how much traffic this is, or if it's only helpful for authors that write about mainstream topics. ~~~ wallflower Let me clarify. If your post gets popular on medium, you may get lots of views. Views that won't necessarily translate back to traffic on your own linked custom domain and accumulating SEO credibility organically. Views from viewers who might never care about the source (you) and just care about the content fix of the day. By publishing on medium, you are in many ways an unpaid freelance writer. Yes, they offer a potentially far-reaching platform. However, it is a walled garden. The equivalent of people flipping channels looking for something interesting to read or repost in social media to burnish a certain image v. people who want to subscribe to what you write and link others to your content. The Internet is about niches. Take the time to slowly build your own niche v. being one of 500 channels on Medium. Imagine if patio11 had started posting on medium (if it existed back then). ~~~ mminer Right, I see what you're saying, its magazine-style collections prevent you from building a dedicated following of your own. Very good point. ------ webmaven Consider a tool like [http://prose.io](http://prose.io) ~~~ mminer Thanks for the link, Prose looks like it might be the perfect bridge between ease of editing and the control and flexibility that GitHub Pages provides. I'll give it a try.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
China’s Technology Sector Takes on Silicon Valley - koolhead17 https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-10/china-s-technology-sector-takes-on-silicon-valley ====== ryanmercer There's going to be a lot of stuff coming out of China in the next decade, they have soooooo many people to draw on as far as talent pool and nearly 1.4 billion potential customers for any given product.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
How the movie studios caused Netflix’s problems - jfruh http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/07/15/how-the-movie-studios-caused-netflixs-problems/ ====== protomyth I still think Netflix is one of those transitional businesses not unlike Red Box. It will probably survive to be the place for indies and second tier studios, but I believe that Disney, WB, or Fox have the amount of content needed to create their own On-Demand internet service. ~~~ jerf At which point they'll be bitten by a low-grade network effect; the value of a streaming service to me goes up as its content goes up. I'm much less likely to use the Disney streaming service, the WB streaming service, and the Fox streaming service (and the HBO and Showtime and Discovery and...), than I am to join one that has them all... and the studios are smoking crack if they think I'm going to _subscribe_ to all of them, or even just manage user accounts for all of them. This needs to be _easier_ than what we have now, not harder, and we're sure not going to pay more for less (in absolute dollar terms, anyhow). Not to mention each of the studio streaming services will suck compared to the one created by a company living and dying on the streaming itself. Oh, and I haven't even mentioned DRM. The studios have demonstrated a certain inability to judge the DRM tradeoffs when left to their own devices. Maybe the studios could get away with running their own download-of-not-DRMed-files, but if they've also got to create their own DRM and make it work on all the rapidly-multiplying number of streaming devices out there, it'll be even worse. TVs that can receive ABC but not CBS... hooray for the 21st century! They may try... I don't deny they may try. But it won't go well. ~~~ jfruh I agree that "a TV that gets ABC but not CBS" sounds ludicrous. But look at it another way. Isn't one of the longtime geek rallying cries about cable "I just want to pay for the channels I want, not the whole bundle?" Plus, with the gradual move to an on-demand model for entertainment, it strikes me that "channels" as we know them (where something specific is on at any given time and you don't control that) will become meaningless. Why shouldn't we be buying content direct from the creators (or from the company that funded its creation, more accurately) rather than worry about what "channel" it's on? It seems weird to think about paying Disney directly for Disney content but that's only because we're used to paying for channels. Maybe in the future we'll have choices to buy either unlimited streaming or individual shows from the companies that make them -- and your monthly bill, taking inflation into account, will probably be roughly what you'd pay for cable today. (What, you didn't think things would get cheaper, did you?) ~~~ revorad _Why shouldn't we be buying content direct from the creators (or from the company that funded its creation, more accurately) rather than worry about what "channel" it's on? It seems weird to think about paying Disney directly for Disney content but that's only because we're used to paying for channels._ I prefer buying hand blenders from Amazon, instead of from Braun, because when it comes to the online shopping experience, price, delivery and customer service, Braun will not come near Amazon's quality in a hundred years. As content creation is further accelerated, aggregators will have a more and more important role. The internet is creating more specialisation in commerce overall, not reducing it. ~~~ jerf "I prefer buying hand blenders from Amazon, instead of from Braun, because when it comes to the online shopping experience, price, delivery and customer service, Braun will not come near Amazon's quality in a hundred years." That is exactly what I was trying to get at, only your explanation actually successfully conveys the idea. Thanks. ------ mkramlich On a related note: I have an idea/vision for a next generation movie theatre, but I decided to put it on the backburner for a while, perhaps forever, due in part to all the legal & bureaucratic obstacles related to the MPAA and studio/theatre system. But there are so many obvious ways to make theatres better than what we have today. ~~~ sliverstorm I dunno, I kind of like movie theaters as they are. You'd really have to wow me to sell me on "next-generation movie theaters" ~~~ nitrogen How about being able to get a group of people together to watch a new movie of your choosing on demand, in relatively small private rooms, on equipment far better than you could afford? ~~~ sliverstorm How will you address the large jump in showing costs brought about by "small private rooms"? I don't want to pay $500 for a movie ticket. ~~~ nitrogen Via digital projection on smaller screens, with movies stored on a very large high-speed NAS. If, and it's an insanely huge if that I have no intention of actually trying to address, Hollywood studios would be open to a licensing model that preserves their per-ticket revenue, it should earn them the same amount of money, and save theaters the expense of showing a movie to an empty auditorium with a power-hungry high-brightness bulb. Hence, ticket prices should be roughly the same. You could further appeal to discerning consumers and directors by building in an automated calibration system that adjusts for changes in the projector bulb and matches specifications before every showing. Note: I'm not the top-level poster. ------ xbryanx Can anyone back up his claim that Netflix is paying the studios based on subscribers? This seems really unlikely. Surely they are tracking watches and paying a fee based on that. I am pretty sure this is how streaming music services work. ~~~ sp332 I don't think that's true in this case. It looks like Netflix negotiated a very low, flat license fee, with the condition that not too many people were going to have access to the videos. Once the number went above a certain point, a new kind of contract had to be drawn up to track the number of viewers and pay more.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Super 8 Languages for Making Movies - LeifAndersen http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=3110274 ====== LeifAndersen This is a language for video editing. The language can be found at: [http://lang.video](http://lang.video)	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Apply HN: reinvent ownership - sharemywin I feel like one of the biggest problem with society is the "ownership class." One solution to ownership concentration is "Basic Income" I'm proposing something else. What if the more you used something the more you owned. We have stop gap solution like stock in companies, time shares,rent to own, mortgages, even squatters rights, which provide legal options for fractional ownership. But, these are awkward solutions because our laws and society is setup for the full ownership. What if you create a registry of "rent to own" items, property, etc. that the more you use the more you own. Which allows you to collect income from. Rent a movie then pass it along to some else a little income stream. Rent house to house to house create little income streams that eventually maybe offset your rent. You could still own things you just can't rent them out without losing some ownership. A block chain or something similar could implement the registry. Is it a company or a non profit? Not sure. Could it completely change the fabric of society, hopefully for the better, yes. If your looking for moonshot let's reinvent the concept of ownership. ====== Kinnard What would a prototype or a demo for this look like? ------ bestattack I'm confused about your actual vision. You need to start with a small concrete idea to build at first (the things listed in your "stop gap" section are good examples). I'm a huge fan of m-kopa solar, which is along this axis. Check that out too. ------ Kinnard Very interesting and outside the box!!!! ------ sharemywin Also, once something is contributed to the registry it's like open source it stays there. You can fully own it eventually, you just can't ever rent it out again without using the "rent to own registry"	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Ask YC: How long will you see IPhone hype? - khurrams Hi We are an IPhone application service company that also submitted business model for YC. We see, a lot of hype around IPhone applications currently, and i wanted to inquire how long will we see the IPhone hype. Any clues ? ====== noodle 6 months to a year. that will probably be long enough for the industry to properly catch up, as well as long enough for the shine to fade, turning the special and new into the standard and expected. ~~~ mechanical_fish The iPod product line turns seven years old tomorrow. Its share of unit sales is 70%. Its share of dollars in the MP3 player segment is 84%. The industry doesn't appear to have "caught up" yet. Mac OS X turned seven in March, although perhaps it didn't really start taking over the world until 10.2 or 10.3, in the 2002-2003 timeframe. The "shine" has not faded. Market share is growing. Microsoft tried to "catch up" in the shininess battle with Vista, but they swung and missed. The Linux desktop has a core audience but is conspicuously lacking in "shine" and has so far posed little threat to the Mac's market. So my best guess is that the iPhone platform has at least five years of life in it, maybe more. Maybe much more -- based on what we've seen with Apple's other products, iPhone has a very good chance of being a _dominant_ platform in its niche for five years or more. It even has a finite chance of becoming the basis of a Microsoft-like multi-decade monopoly. You can, of course, argue that the _hype_ around the phone will never last that long, just as the hype around Macs and iPods is now over: The "special and new" has become the "standard and expected". That sounds about right. But there's a lot of money to be made in being the dominant vendor of a boring industry standard. Just ask Microsoft. ~~~ noodle i was purely referring to the hype, not to the platform itself. i'm sure the platform itself will be around for quite a while. ------ jcapote It's already dying down as far as I can tell...	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
This is what every modern Cease & Desist should look like - megamark16 https://github.com/saberma/shopqi/pull/409 ====== edwardog Disclaimer: I am a Shopify employee. Backstory: Shopify.com was recently ripped off as Shopqi.com – the job was pretty impressive! They copied our brochure, wiki, theme store, and from the look of their Rails app, a good chunk of our domain models too. Nice to see the Chinese version of Active Merchant as well. The author of the ripoff posted the source on <http://github.com> as open source: <https://github.com/saberma/shopqi> Tobi, Shopify CEO, decided to make a pull request in response. ~~~ olalonde Disclaimer: Shopqi's author is an acquaintance. Imitation is the highest form of flattery. Seriously though, the backend can't possibly infringe on your intellectual property right? ------ marssaxman Can you explain what is going on here? With no backstory, the page you've linked is completely incomprehensible. ~~~ xal TLDR: Chinese clone Shopify and put it on Github. CEO writes pull request to delete the entire project instead of a Cease & Desist. ~~~ marssaxman Thanks. ------ brandoncordell I'm thinking that shopqi developer's blog really isn't sponsored by EngineYard or RailsKits either. <http://saberma.me/>	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Ex-SolarCity employees: We were fired after reporting millions in fake sales - fabian2k https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/07/3-ex-solarcity-employees-claim-company-oversaw-bogus-sales-to-inflate-valuation ====== foxyv My partner worked for various solar companies (But not Solar City) as a canvasser hoping to get some sales experience. As a result we got to see first hand how corrupt and underhanded their sales departments could be. Canvassers were exploited mercilessly and commissions never appeared as new requirements were added to the payouts. Paychecks bounced periodically. Canvassers would be told to go door to door in areas where solicitation was illegal even though the company knew it was illegal and risked getting their employees arrested. Managers would hire friends and use fake leads to make them look good. I kind of hoped that Solar City would be an exception but I'm not surprised. It seems like the entire solar industry is focused more on extracting government subsidies than on creating long term revenue streams. I don't think management is very confident of the long term prospects of residential solar. Especially considering pushback from utility companies. ~~~ linuxftw > It seems like the entire solar industry is focused more on extracting > government subsidies than on creating long term revenue streams. Some might argue this is the exact nature of government subsidies. People are always going to make choices in their economic self-interest. Either solar needs to be the most cost effective solution for their energy needs, or the government needs to artificially inflate the cost of other energy (or reduce any subsidies to other energy to make solar more competitive). Every time a hurricane knocks out a town's electric grid and federal funds are used to repair it, that's a subsidy. When government authority to exercise eminent domain acquires easements or land to erect power distribution, that's a subsidy. Not to mention utilities being absolved from responsibility for the pollution they create. ~~~ krageon I don't think you've sufficiently proven the argument which the rest of your statements hinge on: "People are always going to make choices in their economic self-interest". It's an attractive (if somewhat cynical) point, but it's no more reasonable than any other generalisation. Not very. ~~~ jtx22 Its patently obvious. No sane individual will systematically go against their economy self interest. ~~~ maneesh You may wish to look into behavioral economics [1], a system of psychology + decision making that looks deeply at how individuals often do go against their economic (and other) self-interests. [1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavioral_economics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavioral_economics) ------ mikro2nd A trend that's been growing for quite a (long!) while now is exemplified by this article: " _Tesla did not respond to Ars’ request for comment on Sunday._ " Who in their right minds realistically expects _any_ organisation to respond to some random journalistic enquiry _on a Sunday_? The other major variant of this shyster tactic is along the lines of, "Company X failed to respond _immediately_ when asked for comment." No company is able to respond _immediately_ , particularly not on an issue that's likely contentious. Any response would need to be run by their PR and legal people at the very least. It's a cheap and nasty way to make companies look/feel uncaring about the issue being reported, but imho it does nothing but reflect poorly on the reporter and publication using these smelly tactics, and leaves me wondering what other agendas they may have running. ~~~ princekolt > Who in their right minds realistically expects any organisation to respond > to some random journalistic enquiry on a Sunday? Jeez. Considering the story was posted today, what this probably means is that they requested commentary _on_ Sunday, waited for the entirety of Monday, and didn't hear back until today, when they decided to post it. ~~~ Marsymars In my experience, legit journalistic sources are also open to delaying a story to include commentary if the commentary source asks for some reasonable additional time to respond. ~~~ theyinwhy Psht, delaying a story is so 2010. ------ shafyy "This tactic allegedly resulted, this person said, in tens of hundreds of millions of dollars in phantom revenue." SolarCity had revenues of ~$480M in 2016 [0]. "Tens of hundreds of millions" would mean billions of dollars of phantom revenue. Even if that fake revenue would be distributed over a couple of years, it would have been a significant proportion of SolarCity's revenue. Just seems unrealistic that the SEC or any other agency didn't realize that. Or what do they mean by "Tens of hundreds of millions?". Did they mean to write "Tens OR hundreds of millions?". Even then the same logic applies. [0] [https://www.statista.com/statistics/505770/revenue-of- solarc...](https://www.statista.com/statistics/505770/revenue-of-solarcity- corp-breakdown/) ~~~ adamson That construction is so weird that I'm going to assume it was a typo and that they meant "tens or hundreds" ~~~ shafyy Ok. So it could be either $40M or $400M - that's a huge range. Let's assume something in the middle, like $200m. Does it seem credible to you guys that nobody except the three plaintiffs noticed that SolarCity faked half of their 2016 revenue? ~~~ mistercow Well first off, I don’t see a time range here. This could easily be stretched over multiple years. Secondly, if someone says “tens or hundreds of millions”, I assume that they’re giving a rough estimate based on incomplete information. If I’m evaluating the credibility of such an estimate, then I’ll consider the most conservative end of the range, which in this case is $20M. If we suppose that that was spread over three years, then we’re talking about 1-2% of total revenue. That doesn’t sound so implausible, right? Finally, SolarCity’s 2016 revenue was $730M, not $400M. ~~~ shafyy That does sound plausible and also not newsworthy :-) ------ Sgt_Apone _This tactic allegedly resulted, this person said, in tens or hundreds of millions of dollars in phantom revenue. He added that more than a dozen people reported the practice to the relevant human resources representatives, and CEO Elon Musk himself, who never replied._ So employees were pumping up projected sales figures for (at least) personal benefit in the form of bonuses. What happens when these figures don't materialize? ~~~ a2tech Nothing. Its a pretty common problem in sales. Lots of sales people are constantly moving jobs and pushing their numbers up. ~~~ sk5t Who are these poor souls paying out bonuses and commissions on unrealized revenue? ~~~ Declanomous Commission typically isn't paid out until the company is paid in my experience. Bonuses are different, but some companies I work for actually tracked how many orders were actually fully paid for vs. how many were entered into the system. A concerning number of salespeople would basically sign people up if anything the customer said could be construed as being interested, and their numbers would look great until you looked at the number of sales that fell through. I never has the most sales in a single month when I worked sales, but I regularly had the highest realized revenue because every single person I signed up actually wanted what they were purchasing. ~~~ jdo20bbx This was all over the cell phone industry when I worked networks side. This was pre-iPhone era, just to give an idea how long ago. I traveled around metro areas measuring signal quality, simple upgrades or maintenance, often stopping at nearby retail outlets rather than laptop in the truck. I’d get to know the store staff and they’d talk freely around me about “fake” signups to juice numbers. The trick was sign em up at end of month, cancel them before a bill got sent. That way the store appeared to hit their monthly target. They’d often do fleet style signups; construction company would come in legit looking for 10 lines, the store would sign up 20 phones for construction company. Then return half before the 14-day no questions asked period. This was going on all the time, across multiple stores, as far as I could tell. The details would change, from construction to startup or new business needing phone in a hurry. ~~~ jstarfish Heh, the same game gets played in retail commissions. Didn't hit numbers for the month? Buy a bunch of your own product, wait a few days until the next cycle starts, then return it all. ------ jsight I think Solar City didn't have a great reputation when they were independent, and I think those problems linger. In Tesla's defense, they have trimmed back sales considerably and it seems like they are moving to a retail model in the future. I think that has the potential to be a lot more sustainable and less ripe for abuse. At least, I hope so. ~~~ vkou Keep in mind that the only reason for why non-utility deployment of solar makes economic sense was due to extremely generous subsidies, and net meter billing. Which are not going to stick around forever. ------ rconti We just had solar installed (yesterday, actually!) I worked with 3 companies; a local large-ish San Jose company, a much smaller local company, and SunRun (national). Ultimately most of the quotes and sizing came back near identical; the very local company had a really nice guy come out and pitch pretty convincingly and ultimately tell me "even if you don't go with us, don't use SunRun, please.." and showed me some negative Yelp reviews and stuff. Well, I was leaning towards that guy because I liked the idea of using a local company, but after a fair bit of digging I started finding some suspicious stuff.. I had contacted one company, but he presented a business card from another contracting company, and so on. Ultimately there were 3 company names, it was hard to find reviews, the address looked more like a freight forwarding company.. and when you start digging into contractor licenses the guy's associated with companies in SoCal that had been apparently sued out of existence. I think the problem is, there's such a gold rush in solar, that everyone is just jumping in. The margins must be good, and demand is high. I don't actually think the guy was an outright scammer, I just think there are a lot of third rate contractors trying to set themselves up as solar experts and just over-promising and under-delivering. Thankfully, this helped me end up with the larger, reputable local company that seems to have the size and professionalism that comes with it, while still helping me feel like I'm able to support a local company, with real local _employees_ , everything under one roof. But you have to look. ------ rossdavidh So, I have no idea what the truth is, but didn't Solar City get bought out by Tesla? In that case, it would seem like it would have been better to clear the books with an audit of past sales, so as to make the price Tesla would have to pay for Solar City, something easier for Tesla to pay. But, I am not a finance person. ~~~ slivym The Tesla purchase of Solar City cannot be thought of like a normal purchase- because of Musk's role. Solar City had all sorts of problems before the purchase - it lost >20% of its workforce in 2016 and cut the salaries of it's founders to $1. There was also some really questionable self-dealing like SpaceX buying SolarCity bonds. It makes perfect sense for Musk as a person to use Tesla to support Solarcity - one of his enterprises supporting another. But that's not how public companies work, you can't force Tesla shareholders to overpay SolarCity shareholders for a buyout simply because Musk personally wants to see SolarCity succeed.But when you view it in that context is makes perfect sense to see why Musk didn't try very hard to drive a hard bargain purchasing SC. ------ mathattack Although this is just hearsay, this is something the company will need to react to. High commission sales orgs frequently create bad incentives. It’s hard to work around this, because the most aggressive tend to thrive in this kind of world, until they cross the line. But if you give up commissions, you will lose the highest producing salespeople to your competitors. ------ freebs Sounds like they should try to reduce the cost of the shingles and power wall, might be easier to sell :P ------ jerf Kinda hope these accusations are mostly true in a way, since Ars doesn't seem to show any compunction about naming names filed in a lawsuit. Would suck for the named persons if it turns out to be entirely false. I miss when journalists at least pretended to have standards. ~~~ shafyy It does seem like the involved persons' names are public, no? ~~~ godzillabrennus Yes but few bother to read lawsuits. Most read news coverage of lawsuits. ~~~ Sgt_Apone So, while it's public information, they shouldn't report the names because most people won't read it? I'm not sure I follow. ~~~ FeepingCreature The binary categories of "public" and "nonpublic" are just approximations for exposure. ------ cletus Ok, I can write out the script for this knowing only the headline. \- Elon defenders will jump in and claim it's all lies \- Elon haters will chime in with "j'accuse!" I honestly don't know the truth about this (few would) but let me point some things: 1\. I would find it strange if sales people were paid bonuses (let alone commissions) on non-real sales. 2\. Even if bonuses were paid when no money was paid by the customer, this would eventually get reconciled and at some point pretty quickly that salesperson would get flagged. 3\. Knowing that "tens or [sic] hundreds of millions of dollars" was in nonexistent sales would make an officer of the company guilty of any number of securities infractions. Not that this isn't possible of course but the severity of this has to be weighed against the benefits to make it more or less likely that it occurred given the potential outcomes. 4\. Was SolarCity a public (note: "public" != "publicly listed") company? If so, there are financial reporting issues too. As well as any obligations to shareholders or financiers. 5\. SolarCity was no stranger to lawsuits or government investigations [1]. 6\. The buyout by Tesla is, on paper, suspect. One way to describe it is: one of Elon's companies (Tesla) bought (arguably "bailed out") a second of Elon's companies (SolarCity) that owed a lot of money it would arguably default on to a third of Elon's companies (SpaceX). Not much happened here remotely resembling at arm's length. 7\. People who get fired, rightly or wrong, have their own motivations for speaking out and rarely is it ever to say "yeah, I screwed up" but that's the case at least some of the time. Not that I'm saying it is here (again, no knowledge of the specifics) but just bear that in mind. 8\. Ex-employees might be suing (or considering suing) their ex-employer for any number of reasons which may or may not be valid. I suspect if they had good counsel they'd say nothing. If they had bad or no counsel they'd speak about this publicly. So which is it? Who knows. Anyway, just take a deep breath and fight your natural (and irrational) instincts to either pile on or defend Elon because none of us really know what happened (yet?). [1]: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SolarCity#Litigation_and_inves...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SolarCity#Litigation_and_investigations) ~~~ SmellyGeekBoy This behaviour is happening in sales departments in companies all over the world. The only reason it's of any interest here is because SolarCity has Musk's name associated with it. ------ shashanoid [deleted] ~~~ shafyy Pic or it didn't happen. ~~~ shafyy Ah come on, a little but of humor. ------ neo4sure Does anyone know who owns arstechnica? I have noticed a pattern of negative reporting directed towards anything associated with Elon Musk. ~~~ s73v3r_ Because he's done a lot of negative things lately. ------ exabrial Wow I'm surprised to see Ars hey in on the Tesla bashing... Interesting ------ _zachs Seems like nothing more than mud-slinging from disgruntled, fired employees. If SolarCity would have had "...tens of hundreds of millions of dollars in phantom revenue that would put them at over a billion in revenue, which I'll leave to you to look up how inaccurate that statement is. ~~~ PhasmaFelis The line is "tens _or_ hundreds of millions of dollars." It didn't occur to you that that might be a misprint? Nobody says "tens of hundreds." ------ mkirklions Why are we blaming the employees when these kind of things come from high pressure management. Everyone is aware the Elon works his employees to death at Tesla, SpaceX, and apparently SolarCity. I feel like these tech companies are great for consumers and shareholders, but employees are worked like dogs to keep the profit flowing. ~~~ matthewmacleod That's a shite excuse. "Just following orders" etc. ~~~ jessaustin If your neighbor was one of the salespeople, then sure go ahead and slag her for it. If you're a prosecutor with jurisdiction and you think there's a case, jump on it. Since most of us don't personally know any of the people involved, there's not much point in selecting these nobodies for our two minutes of hate. The character we're going to have to deal with again is the dude at the top, so naturally he's the one whose behavior we'd like to affect. ------ megamindbrian2 Solar City commits fraud to make Elon's stock look good. Nice. Side note: just watched Back 2 the Future again and saw what 2015 is supposed to look like. I didn't see anything about putting explosive batteries and flammable material next to every house.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
What Happens If Health-Care Workers Stop Showing Up? - jseliger https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/03/were-failing-doctors/608662 ====== jseliger I know a lot of doctors and some other healthcare workers. This question isn't getting enough play in the media, particularly because many hospitals aren't doing enough to protect workers. I know a resident whose program director ordered her to keep working even though she has COVID-19 symptoms, including dry cough and loss of taste, but she can't get tested for COVID-19, so she's continuing to work because she's afraid of what will happen if she doesn't. Other doctors are bringing their own personal protection equipment (PPE) into work and horror stories about hospital administrators ordering them to remove unapproved PPE are being spread through Facebook groups. And that's separate from simple incompetence, like not getting tents set up, not separating respiratory distress patients from other patients, and so on. Healthcare workers are not only putting themselves at risk, but also their families and patients.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
A jet that can fly Paris to Tokyo in 2.5 hours - bakbak http://ca.news.yahoo.com/eads-rocketplane-could-fly-paris-tokyo-2-5-110815553.html ====== gallerytungsten "To land, the pilot cuts the engines and glides down to Earth before reigniting the regular engines before landing." What happens if the engines don't restart as planned? An interesting idea, but it seems to have a high risk factor. Overall, it reminds me of the "semi-ballistic" transports described in Robert Heinlein's book "Friday." ------ imjk "...rocket plane it hopes will be able to fly from Paris to Tokyo in 2.5 hours by around 2050" ಠ_ಠ	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Are ants capable of self recognition? (2015) [pdf] - sjeohp http://www.journalofscience.net/File_Folder/521-532(jos).pdf ====== hprotagonist I am reminded of Feynman's musings on rat mazes. Are they quite sure they're measuring what they believe they're measuring? > For example, there have been many experiments running rats through all kinds > of mazes, and so on—with little clear result. But in 1937 a man named Young > did a very interesting one. He had a long corridor with doors all along one > side where the rats came in, and doors along the other side where the food > was. He wanted to see if he could train the rats to go in at the third door > down from wherever he started them off. No. The rats went immediately to the > door where the food had been the time before. The question was, how did the rats know, because the corridor was so beautifully built and so uniform, that this was the same door as before? Obviously there was something about the door that was different from the other doors. So he painted the doors very carefully, arranging the textures on the faces of the doors exactly the same. Still the rats could tell. Then he thought maybe the rats were smelling the food, so he used chemicals to change the smell after each run. Still the rats could tell. Then he realized the rats might be able to tell by seeing the lights and the arrangement in the laboratory like any commonsense person. So he covered the corridor, and, still the rats could tell. He finally found that they could tell by the way the floor sounded when they ran over it. And he could only fix that by putting his corridor in sand. So he covered one after another of all possible clues and finally was able to fool the rats so that they had to learn to go in the third door. If he relaxed any of his conditions, the rats could tell. Now, from a scientific standpoint, that is an A‑Number‑l experiment. That is the experiment that makes rat‑running experiments sensible, because it uncovers the clues that the rat is really using—not what you think it’s using. And that is the experiment that tells exactly what conditions you have to use in order to be careful and control everything in an experiment with rat‑running. ~~~ sjeohp Methodology is important but given that (assuming the results are valid): \- Ants ignore other ants behind clear glass but inspect their own reflections. \- An ant with a blue dot on its head when shown its reflection will rub at the dot. \- An ant with a brown/invisible dot on its head will ignore it. \- An ant with a blue dot on the _back_ of its head where it can't be seen in the mirror will ignore it. At a certain point Occam's razor comes into play, doesn't it? ~~~ hprotagonist As moyix points out below, Occam's razor could well also point to "the investigators are deluding themselves". ~~~ sjeohp Not really since that's not an explanation of the results. The simplest explanation of the results is that ants have some degree of self-awareness. ------ moyix Peter Watts (author of Blindsight) had a great post about this study: [http://www.rifters.com/crawl/?p=6822](http://www.rifters.com/crawl/?p=6822) ------ macawfish My girlfriend is gonna flip out when I send her this... she _loves_ ants. ------ cronjobber It seems doable, e.g. have a few neurons observe that the "other" ant's movements seem to obey our own motor neuron's commands. The consequence wouldn't be that ants are conscious, it would be to question why "self recognition" was made out to be such a big deal. ~~~ sjeohp Self recognition is considered a big deal because very few animals that we know of are capable of it: most apes, some monkeys, dolphins, elephants, magpies, etc. Notice they also happen to be among the most sapient animals. In this case self-recognition == self-awareness. The ants had a stored representation of themselves in memory that didn't include a blue dot on the head. When met with their reflection they were able to deduce that: a) they were looking at themselves b) the blue dot was not a part of them and so should be removable Whether it's possible to be unconsciously self-aware is an interesting question. ------ ajuc One comment on [http://www.rifters.com/crawl/?p=6822](http://www.rifters.com/crawl/?p=6822) had interesting point - ants have a fungal infection that grows on their heads and forces them to climb and die. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ophiocordyceps_unilateralis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ophiocordyceps_unilateralis) Maybe that's why they have the hardware to recognize themselves in reflections (water droplets are pretty reflective on their scale, right?) and to groom if anything is on their heads? ~~~ sjeohp By the time cordyceps fruits the ant has already climbed and died. There would be nothing to see before then. ~~~ pavement That does not preclude an evolutionary pathway from indirectly forming around incidental hazards. Consider a disease that kills everything incapable of resisting it. The survivors are incidentally immune to the disease, regardless of the reason they possess the trait, and only because everything else was destroyed, and so now their descendents fill the vacuum the disease created. It also means that the subsequent generations get to carry forward any odd traits that their ancestors displayed, whether they make sense or not, simply because there's room for baggage to slip through. So, it would not be unreasonable to consider that the intelligence is incidental to a hypothetic disease immunity, rather than an essential survival characteristic. The reproducing survivors just happened to carry both traits, but only needed one. I don't think it fits this parasitic ant fungus scenario, because the fungus is not an invasive extinction level pandemic species of fungus, rampaging so violently throughout ant populations that it creates a bottleneck that eclipses substantial portions of ant species. The fungus is limited to small regions, compare to the full range of ant activity, worldwide. But, it's not unreasonable to consider ideas that don't intuitively correlate to the observed result, at least in terms of biological evolution. ------ pygy_ That's an interesting result, but actually, most animals are capable of self- recognition, not visual, but olfactive. It is something that we dismiss because we humans are handicapped, nose-wise. ~~~ sjeohp That is interesting. How do they test that? ~~~ miceeatnicerice Isn't it implied in being territorial? ~~~ sjeohp I would draw a distinction between that kind of olfactory/territorial self- recognition and the kind suggested by this test which actually implies some kind of mental representation of the self. ------ mrstone Since Beall's list is nowhere to be found, is this even a reputable journal? I can't find any information and the website looks very amateurish. ~~~ sjeohp I agree about the journal but these are the authors: [https://scholar.google.ca/scholar?start=0&q=%22Marie- Claire+...](https://scholar.google.ca/scholar?start=0&q=%22Marie- Claire+Cammaerts%22+OR+%22Roger+Cammaerts%22&hl=en&as_sdt=0,5) ------ visarga Ants have 250,000 neurons. They have some capacity. ------ ionflux great... I must have killed like a thousand of them the past 2 weeks, they're coming in my apartment through the floor... ~~~ lutusp Remember about ants that they're not individuals as we understand the term. They're more like a hive mind. Like the Borg. It's the same with bees. ~~~ ionflux is there a suggestion hidden underneath that sentence? ~~~ lutusp No, only a reply to the OP's assumption that those facing the mirror test were individuals. ------ lutusp First, until this study has been replicated by a different laboratory, one completely removed from the original lab, I invoke Betteridge's Law[1]: "Any headline that ends in a question mark can be answered by the word _no_." Second, dogs are notorious for failing the mirror test, along with many monkey species, and these species have plenty more brain calls than ants (although brain size may bear only a superficial relationship to the outcome of this test). Extraordinary results require extraordinary evidence. 1\. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headline...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headlines) ~~~ sjeohp > these species have plenty more brain calls than ants Much less complex societies though, for what it's worth. ~~~ Baeocystin I wouldn't say that. Much less _regimented_ social behavior, perhaps. But ants have a lot of behaviors that clearly demonstrate their algorithmic nature. [http://io9.gizmodo.com/5895435/how-to-create-an-ant- spiral-o...](http://io9.gizmodo.com/5895435/how-to-create-an-ant-spiral-of- death) For one of the more dramatic examples.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Gaze Upon Jupiter’s Enormity in This Amazing Fly-By Video - lnguyen https://www.wired.com/2017/06/juno-jupiter-video/ ====== basicplus2 Pity about the audio track, Bach would be better	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Owning a Chromebook - abiosoft https://medium.com/@abiosoft/owning-a-chromebook-6a364c87d830 ====== iwre0 galliumos.org better than crouton IMO by the way, tired to avoid space bar to destroy developer mode and linux os, I stay with Chrome OS with lot of SSH to develop in servers, not in local.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
I Trained a Deep Q Network Built in TensorFlow to Play Atari Pong - superfx https://www.reddit.com/r/MachineLearning/comments/3y16pa/i_trained_a_deep_q_network_built_in_tensorflow_to/ ====== smhx This is simply a transpile / reproduction of the original Torch version from Deepmind, but in TensorFlow. It doesn't really do anything new or different compared to the paper by [Mnih et. al.]([http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v518/n7540/full/nature1...](http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v518/n7540/full/nature14236.html)) . ~~~ tostitos1979 Replicating a previous result is still a worthwhile endeavor. Frankly, I don't think the adjective "simply" applies here. This isn't a script kiddie running a binary they found on the web. P.S. I'm a professional scientist and I think the world would be better if people replicated results more often, and even showcased negative results. ~~~ smhx I didn't mean it in a condescending way. I was stating that this is not algorithmically new, and is a reproduction of the paper. From the README of the repository, it is not obvious that this is a reproduction. The information is fairly hidden, and the DQN paper is given as a reference. A casual glance might suggest that there is research innovation there. Here are other reproductions just FYI: Original Torch version from DeepMind: [github mirror] [https://github.com/kuz/DeepMind-Atari-Deep-Q- Learner](https://github.com/kuz/DeepMind-Atari-Deep-Q-Learner) Caffe: [https://github.com/muupan/dqn-in-the- caffe](https://github.com/muupan/dqn-in-the-caffe) Theano: [https://github.com/spragunr/deep_q_rl](https://github.com/spragunr/deep_q_rl) Neon: [https://github.com/DoctorTeeth/dqn](https://github.com/DoctorTeeth/dqn) ------ nullc Would be interesting to see if it could be regularized to make it a bit less twitchy. (E.g. by giving a fitness bonus to no action / and-or penalizing many changes of direction within some time window.) ------ minimaxir Github page: [https://github.com/asrivat1/DeepLearningVideoGames](https://github.com/asrivat1/DeepLearningVideoGames)	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Google: "We're Not Doing a Good Job with Structured Data" - Anon84 http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/google_were_not_doing_a_good_job_with_structured_data.php ====== zandorg Brewster Kahle (Archive.org) made a small fortune by selling WAIS (Wide Area Information Server), which made each machine a search engine, and used a protocol to request from all engines. Developed in the 80s. Unfortunately, the Web has gone down this road of having centralised search engines which somehow know their way through a maze. It would be better to contact several sites in turn (NYT, FT, Archive, etc) and pull information. If you have to pay, you go through the credit card paywall. Then you don't have to worry about NYT's dark kilobytes. Why aren't we using it? I guess that's what happens when you sell something like that to AOL. ;-) I should also point out that Google could have a stream for the NYT, where the NYT feeds all its stories to Google on creation, and Google doesn't enable cache for the stuff people pay for. But for all I know, that's already being done. But service-push-to-server is better than Google's pull-service-to-server. ~~~ Anon84 _which made each machine a search engine, and used a protocol to request from all engines. Developed in the 80s._ Peer-to-peer search is alive and well, though: <http://sixearch.org/> ------ uberc It's a useful reminder of how distinctly unsolved the search problem is. Google has taken stabs at this area from different directions with Google Base and Product Search, but there's still a whole world of information "out there" which is inaccessible or not usefully organized. ------ leoc The long-delayed epiphany. Google's weakness with structured data and its weakness in cultivating third- party developers are mutually reinforcing and seem to have arisen from the same hubris. In other words, bring back the search API already! ~~~ litewulf (What do you mean by bringing back the search API? Isn't <http://code.google.com/apis/ajaxsearch/> what you want?) ~~~ wildwood From that page: "The Google AJAX Search API lets you put Google Search in your web pages with JavaScript." I've never understood why they call that an API. It's not. It's a web 2.0 widget. Google used to have a SOAP-based API for natural search results, and it was sweet. I miss those days... ~~~ leoc It seems the AJAX Search API now lets you get a machine-readable list of search results in a relatively straightforward fashion; I'm not sure that was true back when the SOAP API was canned. <http://code.google.com/apis/ajaxsearch/documentation/#fonje> But the terms and conditions still seem to prevent you from using structured data to do anything useful to the search results. <http://code.google.com/apis/ajaxsearch/terms.html> (see especially the start of 1.3) ------ th0ma5 if only there was a machine-readable semantic-based web everyone could use ;p ~~~ jdrock Actually, we're creating a way for developers to access the web really easily for the purposes of different kinds of analysis, including building semantic frameworks. The idea is that we give you really cheap, really fast access to millions of pages, and you use our platform to analyze Internet content how you want. $2 per 1 million pages crawled, $0.03 per CPU-hour used for any computing you want to do. Not yet at beta, but you can check our site: <http://www.80legs.com>. ~~~ ntoshev Looks cool. How would it compare to Amazon/Alexa search service? In theory they allow you to build your own search engine, but in practice you can't really amend their ranking formula and don't get access to the raw inverted index (with tf-idf statistics and such). Yahoo BOSS is in the same league. Your service would be cheaper, though. ~~~ jdrock Yes, in theory you could do something similar with AWS. However, you'd have to put in the work to handle all the complexities of parallel-computing and web crawling. We do that for you. And yes, our service is cheaper. We'd love to see developers using our platform to build some very interesting indexes based on innovative concepts. ------ zandorg Maybe Mechanical Turk could help with bulletin boards, etc.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Ask HN: Searching for Functions via Type Signatures - theSage I just came across an old paper discussing searching for functions via type signatures. How prevalent is this kind of search perhaps in code search systems? Does anyone else know more about this kind of work?<p><pre><code> - https://github.com/theSage21/sigsearch - https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~wing/publications/ZaremskiWing93.pdf</code></pre> ====== EvilTerran There's Hoogle, for Haskell: [https://hoogle.haskell.org/](https://hoogle.haskell.org/) I don't know if it implements any techniques from that paper, but it does let you search for definitions by type signature. Of note, it also does a pretty good job of finding results with different-but-compatible types, which is very valuable in a Haskell context given all the polymorphism.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Apple likes our name and so do we - JacobAldridge https://www.healthkit.com/blog ====== _frog There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding here about what Apple's HealthKit is. HealthKit is simply the name for the API framework Apple is making available to developers, following in the naming conventions of UIKit, WebKit, SpriteKit and so on. HealthKit is not, however, a name that consumers will ever actually come across in using their device. Apple's own app on top of HealthKit is simply called "Health", and I highly doubt the string "HealthKit" appears anywhere in that app's UI. ~~~ 001sky This is a good qualification, but not all "products" need be consumer-facing products. That's just a play on words for "retail" sales vs business or professional sales. Its a seperate point to say its a 'feature' not a product and thus is not actually sold to anyone (and thus distinct). ~~~ _frog And regardless, there's unlikely to be overlap between the markets for these two products. HealthKit.com is somewhat hard to navigate, but the impression I get is that their product is aimed at medical practitioners. I doubt they overlap with the mobile developer demographic to any significant extent. Though I'm curious to hear from someone with more legal knowledge than me: would the fact that there's very little chance of collision between these names protect either party from legal repercussions? ~~~ sergiosgc What about the effect of search engines on brand value? Whereas, before, the existing HealthKit was probably the top result, after an invasion of Apple HealthKit development sites they may be kicked to the third page hellban. Naturally, this same reasoning can be used to challenge the use of the same trademark in a different domain, something clearly accepted by law. ------ miles Regarding the trademark issue: _if the other company does use its name as a brand as well as a trade name, it may have trademark rights in its name, even if they have never applied to register it._ [1] It was certainly well known by Apple that healthkit.com was already registered and in use by a company already working on a very similar product. As for copyright, it does not apply to names: _What is not protected by copyright? ... Names, Titles, Short Phrases, or Expressions_ [2] Finally, Apple seems to think it's easier asking for forgiveness than permission when it comes to naming products [3] [1] [http://www.quora.com/Trademarks/If-someone-has-a-company- nam...](http://www.quora.com/Trademarks/If-someone-has-a-company-name-but-has- not-trademarked-it-can-I-trademark-it-and-sue-them-b-c-of-the-name-even- though-they-used-it-first) [2] [http://www.legalzoom.com/intellectual-property- rights/copyri...](http://www.legalzoom.com/intellectual-property- rights/copyrights/5-things-you-cant-copyright) [3] [http://www.itnews.com.au/News/71042,cisco-expects-deal- with-...](http://www.itnews.com.au/News/71042,cisco-expects-deal-with-apple- on-iphone-trademark.aspx) ~~~ kennywinker It doesn't change anything you've said, but it's worth noting that Apple has backed down on something like this when pressed: [http://appleinsider.com/articles/05/02/18/apple_to_rename_re...](http://appleinsider.com/articles/05/02/18/apple_to_rename_rendezvous_technology_bonjour) ------ owenwil It looks like this company doesn't own any trademarks or copyright on the HealthKit name, but Apple does. Not sure how they can be upset if they haven't even tried to protect their brand. They filed the trademarks some months ago: [http://www.macrumors.com/2014/05/30/healthbook-healthkit- tra...](http://www.macrumors.com/2014/05/30/healthbook-healthkit-trademarks/) ~~~ shakethemonkey They own a common-law trademark, which is perfectly defensible. Apple is in the wrong here. ~~~ astrodust In what country, Australia? I don't think Apple is too concerned. If HealthKit had filed for trademarks internationally then they'd have a leg to stand on. Instead they're left moaning about how Apple has named some technology, not a packaged product per-se, with a name similar to their company. Apple's legal team was no doubt aware of HealthKit, had done some analysis, and decided that there was no real issue. HealthKit can do their thing in Australia. ------ re From [http://blog.daemonl.com/2014/06/healthkit-apple-stole-our- bu...](http://blog.daemonl.com/2014/06/healthkit-apple-stole-our-business- name.html) > But not only HealthKit, The whole 'Kit naming scheme Apple's been using the "kit" naming convention for a _much_ longer time (AppKit, IOKit, WebKit)--I think it originates in NeXTSTEP, if not earlier. ~~~ daemonl Fair point about the series, but apple own i* and *Kit. Anything else? ~~~ daemonl Oh, and rectangles and apples. ~~~ spacemanmatt Swiss clocks. Noooo, wait, they lost-or-settled that one because it would look too bad for them to play hardball (as usual) over a public icon that well known. ------ vicbrooker Aussie law student here. IANAL. I haven't studied IP in a year or so but I'm not convinced that the startup has a huge claim to the name HealthKit at all. I've looked at both US and local law in the past so I'll try and explain in case it helps any founders reading this. "HealthKit", in the context of both healthkit.com and the dev kit describes the intend purpose of the IP. The startup seems to produce a software "kit" for health practitioners and the Apple version is obviously a dev kit that deals with the new health app. Any trademark that describes intended purpose is called a 'descriptive mark' (lawyers are an imaginative bunch) and are generally really hard to protect. You need to show evidence of market use, and for lack of a better word, traction. Apple actually seem to have the stronger argument here: MapKit, GameKit, UIKit etc. have been used for ages and are recognised in the software community as being associated with Apple. This would be categorised as a software trademark and I'm not sure that the startup can establish a strong argument that they've a) established their brand in the software market and that b) they should be able to exclude Apple to prevent confusion. This is consistent with both Aus and US law to my knowledge, and successfully establishing themselves in the Australian market, or filing a trademark here won't bind the US anyway. Bottom line, the more generic and descriptive your name (in context), the harder it will be to successfully defend it. Owning a .com doesn't count for much, if anything (even trying to register a generic descriptive word + .com - mattress.com was registered unsuccessfully IIRC). You need to get eyeballs on it and sell stuff to win this with a common law/equitable trademark. Considering I hadn't heard of HealthKit.com until this happened they might struggle with this. If you're a founder and you want to protect your name, pick a name that is something arbitrary or suggestive. Healthkit.com's claims would be much stronger if it was named Potato or Voozle and Apple used the same name for a dev kit. It makes it far harder to communicate your product quickly but thats the tradeoff. Names that invoke your product through onomatopoeia, like 'Twitter' strike a good balance between effective communication and defensibility. They're bloody hard to come up with though. Hopefully, HealthKit.com use this as an opportunity to get their message out to their target audience, they're getting an audience on hacker news but its doctors they should be going for. As an aside, it's interesting to see how much of the media is confusing the HealthKit dev kit with the Health app. Helps with the story I guess. ------ bruceboughton HealthKit is just the name of the API, like WebKit, UIKit, etc. I doubt it will be the name of the public facing product. ~~~ tjogin Correct, the app is called Health. ------ andyhmltn (Off topic) Jesus christ. The hijacked they scroll event and replace it with buttons ~~~ grahamel Oh my, that's awful. Especially with two different down arrows. On the about us page there isn't any buttons at all, so you can't read all the text. ~~~ spacemanmatt "Why yes, disabling the default UI controls seems like a brilliant plan." ------ credo Many iOS frameworks are named with a "Kit" suffix (UIKit, MapKit, StoreKit, EventKit etc.) There is nothing odd in some new iOS frameworks following a similar convention. If anything, I think Apple's new framework is going to generate a lot of marketing/PR value for the company. I think they realize this :) ~~~ shard972 Lets have a look at how depressed the owner of the company must feel right now: [http://www.news.com.au/finance/small-business/apple- swallows...](http://www.news.com.au/finance/small-business/apple-swallows- aussie-startup-companys-name-healthkit-and-their-worldembracing-idea/story- fn9evb64-1226943793182) Yep, looks devastated. ~~~ stedaniels Because news.com.au sent a photographer round to take the photo straight away. Or because news companies never use stock or press photography. ------ damian2000 I think they're preempting a problem that doesn't exist. There's many APIs that don't own the .com of the same name, but it never causes much of a problem... angular.com cocoa.com node.com flask.com bootstrap.com backbone.com etc. ~~~ Blahah The domains you've listed are all common words, so claiming exclusive use of them would not be reasonable. HealthKit is not a common word, so it seems more reasonable for an entity to expect exclusive use of it as a trademark. ~~~ curiouscats I don't think you can expect to slap two common words together and prevent anyone from using those words in any way everywhere. If you make up some new word Exxon etc. then maybe. For slapping two common words together there have to be sensible limits on everyone else being prohibited. If you own things like onetwo.com great that may well be a reason for someone else to be dissuaded from naming a consumer product that because they want an easy to remember domain. Thinking all uses of HealthKit are bad seems more to me like Facebook thinking anyone using "book" prefaced by something else is doing wrong - which I think is silly. I would be amazed if there are not many previous uses of health kit - just removing the space hardly seems an amazing transformation to me. ------ dsymonds Meh, I can't see anyone honestly getting confused between the two. Apple's HealthKit ([http://www.apple.com/ios/ios8/health/](http://www.apple.com/ios/ios8/health/)) is for developers to work with, and this other HealthKit ([https://www.healthkit.com/about-us](https://www.healthkit.com/about-us)) is for patients and medical practitioners. ~~~ geocar People are already getting confused about it. ------ piokoch Funny but... Some time ago Apple was after Polish grocery store [1] since they have an apple in their logo (not even closely similar to Apple's logo) and use domain name a.pl... I think that hilarity of above mentioned action still remains unbeaten, however, as I see, Apple is trying very, very hard. [1] [http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2409669,00.asp](http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2409669,00.asp) ~~~ davidgerard They did this in Australia too - sued Woolworth's Supermarket for having a logo that looked like a W made from apple skin. [http://www.theage.com.au/business/apple-bites-over- woolworth...](http://www.theage.com.au/business/apple-bites-over-woolworths- logo-20091005-ghzr.html) I wondered at the time when Apple would sue actual apples. [http://newstechnica.com/2009/10/05/apple-inc-sues-apples- for...](http://newstechnica.com/2009/10/05/apple-inc-sues-apples-for- trademark-violation/) ------ tommoor Apple missed a perfectly good opportunity to call it "MedKit" if you ask me ~~~ philmcc "Health" feels positive to me. "Med" feels ameliorative. Stay Healthy vs Stay Medicined... ~~~ msane Parent is making a game / DOOM pun. ~~~ Blahah Medkits go at least as far back as Wolfenstein (1981). ~~~ msane Ahah yes. ------ staunch _Change your apps name. Not that big of a deal. Steve Sent from my iPhone_ ------ tomdotom Apple will have certainly Googled your domain. Without been specific to Apple, it's a common practice of large multinational companies to perform international searches for registered and unregistered trademarks as well as any common usage of the marks they are interested in using. If any potential registrations, or strong claims on the mark, are found in the same field of business a specialist will probably be contracted to perform a more in depth investigation. I would be surprised if Apple had not taken the time to assess your claims on the HealthKit mark. I can only guess that they did and decided that there was either: a) no conflict between your businesses and hence use of the mark - in which case you should be happy, yet careful not infringe on Apple's usage (keep your eye out for a trademark registration very soon). b) they don't think you have any strong rights on the mark and chose to use it. It may be fun to ask around the office and see if anybody remembers been contacted with out of the ordinary questions regarding the length of your company's operations and asking questions about the HealthKit domain/name in general. ------ dctoedt Something like this happened with the Macintosh trademark as well -- Apple had to buy the right to the name from McIntosh Laboratory, which made high-end audio gear. [1] [1] [http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/mac/30-years-mac-how- macintos...](http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/mac/30-years-mac-how-macintosh- got-its-name-24578/) ------ Frozenlock I'm a little confused by the domain names and trademarks relations. If I use a trademark, say Ziglou, can I expect to have a right to every domain names with Ziglou? Ziglou.com, Ziglou.net, Ziglou.org, Ziglou.some-new-top-level-name... Can I expect to also have right to a top domain? Ziglou.ziglou? Inversely, can one expect to have an established trademark just because of a domain name? In this case, HealthKit? ~~~ samastur No, you shouldn't expect that. When you register a trademark, you do it for a specific region (country, EU...) and for a particular purpose (industry). In principle you could try to trademark a name everywhere in the world for every purpose imaginable, but it would be very very hard since any owner of an existing trademark can object if they think there is a chance of your name causing confusion with theirs and the resolution process can take time and be ultimately unsuccessful for you. So nobody actually does that. Strength of a trademark really lies in both a) being registered and b) being actively used (first by you, but also by others). I think it is more useful to think of a domain as a digital equivalent of a sign hanged above the shop entrance. I think it affords you roughly the same level of protection. IANAL, but I have registered a trademark years ago and had at that time spent some effort in getting acquainted with laws. They may have changed since. ------ vincentbarr Given the usability of said company's website, Apple would be doing web users a favor acquiring that domain. ------ mcmillion I have to click a button to scroll the text on your site. ------ CmonDev In the world of cyber-squatting and start-up-coming-soon pages, the one that gets more famous first wins. ------ jfranche How did the whole Apple Records v Apple thing work out... ------ mrfancypants They never registered the business name. The folks in charge at the (non- Apple) Healthkit should learn how to do business before having a whinge. Move along, nothing to see here. ~~~ mrfancypants downvote without contributing to discussion? smooth. ------ blueskin_ And now just wait for these guys to be patent trolled into oblivion :( ------ sspiff Unrelated to the topic, but the scrolling mechanism on that site is terrible. I can't use my wheel, arrow keys or page down/up. I have to use the arrow images in the bottom left corner to scroll the page content. ~~~ vidyesh Also no permalink to the blog post is a horrible path. The old published content is already lost in the void. ------ dang Related: [http://www.news.com.au/finance/small-business/apple- swallows...](http://www.news.com.au/finance/small-business/apple-swallows- aussie-startup-companys-name-healthkit-and-their-worldembracing-idea/story- fn9evb64-1226943793182) and [http://blog.daemonl.com/2014/06/healthkit-apple- stole-our-bu...](http://blog.daemonl.com/2014/06/healthkit-apple-stole-our- business-name.html). ------ pling Like Apple's lawyers would give you a choice anyway and they know it. Bend over peons, we now own your trademark.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
More CSS - mehulkar http://morecss.org/ ====== Produce We've been using the beta version in a medium-scale e-commerce system and could not be happier! Since the declarations are so simple to write, we've managed to reduce our front-end design costs by over 75% by hiring people who are not capable of abstract reasoning. As you are all probably aware, abstract reasoning only develops after age four. Children under four also happen to be a major liability for families in developing nations. We have effectively killed two birds with one stone by putting unproductive toddlers to work. They pay for their own diapers, we get cheap frontend developers - everybody wins! ------ chrisacky Yeah it's an April fools. The copyright date at the bottom specifically mentions April 1st. The domain was also just registered on the 21st. Created On:21-Mar-2012 23:51:11 UTC And the code doesn't actually exist. Look at their "fake" 500 error page: <http://morecss.org/more.js> `We have been receiving a large volume of requests since April 1st 2012.` ------ Ohadr British spelling in css. At last! ~~~ mehulkar that's probably part of the joke ~~~ anthonyb As is the thousand pixel footer ------ lightblade I thought this was real..until !unimportant ~~~ adgar It was the words-not-numbers that did it for me. ~~~ lifeformed I liked the helpful compiler error. ------ zsherman Gotta be a joke. ------ mehulkar on first thought I thought I was the stupid one and this was actually cool. On second thought, I realized it was April 1st. But on 3rd thought... ------ babyboy808 of course it's a joke. Why write more code than we have to :) It's the oppisite of less.js ------ est Page lags when scrolling. Win7 Chrome V17 ------ DiabloD3 Wait, what? </slashdot>	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Venture's New Grail - Mistone http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2009/0216/046_print.html ====== jwesley Very interesting article. I think this is where the VC business is heading. Startups will either bootstrap or take very little capital and then receive larger investments when they have matured to profitability.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Train Philosophers with Pearl and Kahneman, not Plato and Kant - pizu http://lesswrong.com/lw/frp/train_philosophers_with_pearl_and_kahneman_not/ ====== stiff I guess this might be stunning to some people, but even as early as before 1980 there existed people who did great science, and in some cases even great philosophy, and, oh horror, they did not always knew the Bayes theorem, decision theory or too much neuroaesthetics and they were not even very rational in their private lifes. Instead, they became completely immersed in their narrow, precisely-defined field of inquiry and had the completely irrational drive that is neccessary to persist the years of labour it often takes to repeatedly subject ones beliefs to the trials of experiment and revise them times and times again. This kind of insight is not possible if you study game theory on one day, and mathematical logic on the other, and this is even without touching on the huge amount of often conflicting assumptions that underly each of those distinct fields and the ignorance of which often leads people like philosophers to nonsense conclusions. ------ 1337biz This sounds a lot like another Scientism dispute, i.e. if all questions of human life can be empirically answered or that there are things beyond testability. It is an exhausting discussion, that goes way deeper than a few snaky comments on contemporary philosophy papers. There is actually a quite good summary on Wikipedia on the conflict: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientism> ~~~ mej10 It sounds to me more like "Let's stop funding some parts of philosophy that aren't really tied to reality, when there are real philosophical problems with practical consequences that we need people working on". * Edit: Made my interpretation a little less inflammatory. ~~~ unalone The web site's not loading for me, so unfortunately I can't read the article yet, but your summary sounds worryingly wrongminded to me. Philosophy should not necessarily be a practical endeavor – it concerns itself with being, life, and existence on their most abstract and difficult levels. There is a place for functional philosophy, and plenty of places where modern scientific discoveries can aid a line of philosophical inquiry, but suggesting we scrap Plato and Kant for "practical" thinkers is a dangerous way of thinking. I don't want to comment more until the article loads for me, but there's a place for practical consequence and it's elsewhere. ~~~ jopt Why? Is this how philosophy is or how it ought to be? ~~~ unalone It's how philosophy _began_ and it's how philosophy is _in its purest state_ , which is much different from saying it's the _only_ way for philosophy to be. Generally, I think philosophy is like mathematics in that while its purest application is very obscure and very hard to understand without a whole lot of effort, that pure application results in practical breaththroughs on almost every level of "practical" research. I wish that pure philosophy was taught to _more_ people, just as I wish that we taught kids more than the boring "practical" math that convinces them math sucks and patterns are boring. It's a pursuit that benefits nearly everybody who learns from it: reshapes our mind, teaches us new ways to observe the world. And if we had scientists, psychologists, programmers, and politicians learning philosophy, then there'd be less pressure on the actual philosophers to start studying something practical. For me that's the change that should be made: not more practical philosophy, but more philosophical practice. ~~~ edanm So this is a great place for me to be educated: what practical applications has philosophy yielded? Btw, I've read your comments on this thread, and it seems like you're very knowledgeable about the field of philosophy, but not particularly knowledgeable about LessWrong. I'm only slightly knowledgeable about philosophy, but I highly recommend you read more of LessWrong - it's an amazing resource of knowledge and of philosophical discussions (albeit with a more practical-minded bent most of the time). Lukeprog, the author of the above post, is a very respected member of that community as far as I know, and I honestly think you are underestimating him. ~~~ memla To take one example, philosophers have been more than instrumental in the development of logic, especially [informal logic](<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Informal_logic#History>). Don't want to get into a discussion on whether logic is itself a branch of philosophy. ------ lutusp > We have experimental psychology now. Yes -- apparently a big improvement over philosophy, until you take a closer look: [http://news.sciencemag.org/scienceinsider/2012/11/final- repo...](http://news.sciencemag.org/scienceinsider/2012/11/final-report- stapel-affair-point.html) A quote: "The blame goes far beyond Diederik Stapel and the three Dutch universities where he worked as a social psychologist. In their exhaustive final report about the fraud affair that rocked social psychology last year, three investigative panels today collectively find fault with the field itself. They paint an image of a "sloppy" research culture in which some scientists don't understand the essentials of statistics, journal-selected article reviewers encourage researchers to leave unwelcome data out of their papers, and even the most prestigious journals print results that are obviously too good to be true." ------ ajb Notably absent from this guy's syllabus is anything concerning ethics, morality, values, or right and wrong. In all the fields he cites - even, to a large extent, psychology - values are exogenous. ~~~ lutusp > Notably absent from this guy's syllabus is anything concerning ethics, > morality, values, or right and wrong. That's because all morality is relative, one of the few things philosophy got right. The universe is morally neutral, which means that, to the degree that we fully grasp reality, to the same degree we discover that morality is a human invention, malleable across time and place. Not to discount notions of morality, only to say that nature doesn't care what our thoughts are on the subject. ~~~ beala > That's because all morality is relative, one of the few things philosophy > got right. As far as I know, there is no consensus in the philosophical community that relativism is right. In fact, my impression is that there's a stigma against relativism, as it's hard to come up with a satisfactory relativistic theory. For example, if relativism is true, it might be the case that we can't judge other societies or other times, but certainly slavery and female genital mutilation are wrong, and objectively so. I'm also not sure what to make of "nature not caring." Nature also doesn't "care" about math or science, because nature isn't a thinking thing that can care. ~~~ im3w1l >because nature isn't a thinking thing that can care. This isn't commonly accepted even now. Many people think that good things happen to good people because nature/god cares. ~~~ lutusp > Many people think that good things happen to good people because nature/god > cares. Any realistic, objective sampling of human experience instantly falsifies this claim. The correlation coefficient between "good" behavior and "good" outcomes (and the reverse) is precisely zero. To many people, the single most annoying thing about science is that it quickly demolishes such romantic notions, using logic and objective statistical sampling. ------ zackmorris Philosophy and I parted ways in college when it became apparent that my own opinion meant less than someone else's. I look at philosophy as it's taught now like an introductory art class, where you learn how to draw lines and circles and shade things. Once you have a certain repertoire, focussing purely on technique becomes a waste of time, sort of the antithesis of art. Modern philosophy is touching things up in photoshop and calling it art. I wish that philosophy was more about existentialism. Exploring what all of this really means and how it fits into your life. I've already diminished my argument by focussing on one narrow segment of philosophy. Then again, if philosophy is so fragile that any talk of improving it is met with hostility, maybe it's not all it's cracked up to be. And "modern" sciences like mathematics and probability don't have much to do with philosophy in my book. ~~~ cthaley Yes, this is quite an interesting feature of philosophy, and I would say, an interesting feature of the world: that some opinions are more valuable than others. Nietzsche's argument against the existence of God has become a common argument against any and all truth. Zarathustra tells his disciples: "If there were gods, how could I stand not to be a god! Therefore there are no gods." Therefore do not study philosophy. ------ unalone The argument is absurd. Claiming that universities are "poisoning minds" by teaching Aristotle and Descartes _in 101 Intro to Philosophy courses_ is just silly. Those same universities teach modern philosophy courses that deal with the intersection of science and philosophy – judging by my one or two philosophy friends, philosophers are much more interested in the practical discoveries of psychology, math, and science than practitioners in those fields are interested in the most challenging branches of philosophy, which is a damn shame. The reason Aristotle and Descartes are taught, the reason the roots of philosophical study are so important, is that philosophy at its highest is the process of _directing inquiry at that which is not yet examined_. Plato's _Laws_ and Aristotle's _Poetics_ mark some of the earliest attempts made by man to reason about the world simply through observation and lengthy reasoning. Descartes' work is even more breathtaking, in a sense, in that Descartes took the process of philosophers before him and developed a formalized explanation of how that process worked, then insisted that we could not fully understand the universe unless we applied this process to slowly revealing it. It was the birth of modern science, and it followed a profound philosophical insight. Philosophy is a conversation that goes back thousands of years. Modern philosophy is so fascinating that of course there's a temptation to skip right to it – in my personal studies, I bounce back and forth between contemporary writers and writers from other centuries and millennia, letting the former refine my understanding of the latter and the latter provide context for the former. But the process of philosophy's development is important to teach, not to mention a somewhat exhilarating story when told properly. Those contemporary articles the author scorns are proof that you can take two or three sentences from anything and make it sound much worse than it is. Yes, some of those subjects have been debated for years and years – that's a feature, not a bug. Philosophy's purpose is to search not for an answer to the surface questions (and when you're doing it right, _everything_ becomes a surface question) but to dive deeper into questions of what lies beneath those questions, what assumptions we make when we use certain words or claim certain beliefs. We'll stop asking those questions when culture shifts enough that those questions cease making sense to ask – and if they do, it will be in large part because philosophy has helped reveal some unseen truths that led to a reorientation of society. Look, Hacker News loves this stuff because people here are largely surface- oriented people. We love practical results, we love making things that directly affect a population's lives. LessWrong is best known for its connection to Eliezer Yudkowsky, a bright guy who's interested in putting an end to forms of death. This article's written by somebody who works for a Singularity institution. Those are what a lot of us think of when we think of philosophy – attempting to answer questions as old as mankind by devising a technical "solution" to them. Like plugging leaks and whatnot. You have to understand that this isn't philosophy's sole purpose – in fact, this is a shallower purpose than philosophy's real one, which is to constantly search for deeper underlying truth. Philosophers should be aware of scientific developments, especially psychological ones, but only inasmuch as those developments completely invalidate a part of their studies, which isn't frequent. Philosophers aren't writing for the everyman; they're writing to continue a certain lofty ivory-tower discussion that slowly trickles down, through conceptual artists and writers and thinkers, to more practical-minded makers, down slowly towards people with more "mass-market" appeal, until what started as a very high-minded concept has shifted our way of thinking entirely. Now, is that the _only_ place philosophers should exist? No! The more philosophers, the more philosophy-oriented practitioners in whatever field, the better. But the solution is not for philosophy to become more scientific, it's for _science_ to turn more _philosophical_. Insist that scientists and programmers and psychologists study philosophy. Teach philosophy to business majors. Remind students that inquiry lies at the heart of all understanding, all breakthroughs, and that therefore it's useful for nearly anything you'll undertake in your life. But don't critique philosophy for its approach. That sort of pure inquiry is still necessary, it's more difficult than ever – the geniuses of the 20th century are far more frustrating than the geniuses of ancient Greece and Europe – and it's under attack from many fronts, ranging from the blatantly anti-intellectual to the more subtly-so like this one. The architect Christopher Alexander, who I greatly admire and whose work combines philosophical inquiry with practical reasoning with a fantastic mathematical rigor, makes the argument that what we typically think of as "practical" will never be enough to fully understand the nature of how the universe is organized. We can figure it out part by tiny part, but that's insufficient for thought or practice on any significant scale. He's a critic of our reliance on physics and constructing physical scientific models, not because they aren't the most cutting-edge way we know to study the universe – they are! no question about it! – but because they have their blind spots, just as every practice of inquiry throughout history has had its blind spots. For him, there is a practical intersection between math and philosophy, science and spirituality, that could be said to favor each side in a different way. But to emphasize one over any other simply because we value its "results" more would be just as disastrous as to favor the other instead. Each type of study is good at a very particular thing, and we should let it be good at that thing without insisting that it bow its head to the demands of the others. The result of his thinking, incidentally, is that he comes out criticizing modern philosophy as well, but for much sounder and more incisive reasons than lukeprog does in this article. ~~~ dean While I agree that philosophy has the ability to ask good questions, unfortunately it does not seem to be able to answer those questions in any meaningful way. Science also has the ability to ask good questions, but it knows how to answer them in a meaningful way (at least good science does). By meaningful, I mean provably true. Philosophy is very happy to take untested opinion as true. Which is provably dangerous. I get the sense from reading your post that you think of Philosophers as Philospher-Kings, who sit at the top of humanity and think about important things and their ideas eventually trickle down to the Plebeians at the bottom. And once everyone agrees with the Philosophers, there will no longer be a need for Philosophy. Give me Science any day. ~~~ unalone I think that kings ought to be philosophers, metaphorically speaking: I trust politicians who prove they have at least some understanding of philosophical inquiry much more than I trust the ones who are skeptical. But philosophers themselves shouldn't be kings: hell, how would you pick the one to rule over the rest of them? The best philosophers are frequently the most controversial: the controversy surrounds them because of how challenging and provocative their thoughts are. Here's the thing with "provably true" that I find worrisome: the process of proving something as rigorously as scientific research demands it is so slow, so painstaking, that if we relied entirely on science to inform our knowledge, we'd lose out on literal millennia of human experience. Now, there are some things for which scientific rigor is _absolutely necessary_ : don't get me wrong, I think science is one of the best things ever. But it's not enough. It's a tool in an arsenal which employs many different techniques to get at knowledge, and as far as techniques go, it's a highly specialized one. Philosophy is a much, much broader technique; in fact, it specializes in finding ways to look at even broader questions in exquisite detail. That makes it a very impractical tool if you're trying to, say, build a space ship. But it makes it a far more useful tool if you're trying to understand things as complex and abstract and subtle as, say, questions of how we acquire knowledge, or what it means to think. "Meaning" is something which science deals with very practically, and as a result its meaning will usually go only as deep as is needed to achieve a practical result. Once science begins worrying about satisfying deeper curiosities, well, it's no longer practical and your argument is moot. You think philosophy is provably dangerous. Well, I think that science left unchecked is dangerous as well – it's such a powerful method of inquiry that it can convince you it's the only sort of inquiry that has any meaning whatsoever, which is a seductive promise (it's so simple! it could explain _everything_!) but not a true one. There have been certain controversies involving very bright scientific minds saying some very stupid things, and then attempting to "prove" that there's a scientific justification for what they're saying. It's especially frustrating because these scientific thinkers, who are so humble and questioning when examining the universe from their lens, are incapable of the same humility when offered any other perspective on their thoughts – even well-reasoned and meaningful ones. But I wouldn't argue that because of this, we ought to cut funding to science, or insist that science change its techniques. No: science should do what it's good at, period. But so should philosophy. And so should mathematics, or theology, or history, or whichever other method of inquiry might yield useful and important breakthroughs. The dangerous part of science is its claim that it ought to dominate other fields of study, which practically speaking I find no different from the claim made by fundamentalist Christians that their religion should dominate all fields of study. There's a similar belief that their worldview is _so_ right, _so_ all-pervasive, that no other argument could possibly suffice to dethrone it. ~~~ jasonwatkinspdx _"Here's the thing with "provably true" that I find worrisome: the process of proving something as rigorously as scientific research demands it is so slow, so painstaking, that if we relied entirely on science to inform our knowledge, we'd lose out on literal millennia of human experience."_ _"Philosophy is a much, much broader technique; in fact, it specializes in finding ways to look at even broader questions in exquisite detail. That makes it a very impractical tool if you're trying to, say, build a space ship. But it makes it a far more useful tool if you're trying to understand things as complex and abstract and subtle as, say, questions of how we acquire knowledge, or what it means to think."_ To be blunt: you need to read Pearl (and Kahneman), because it is clear you are not familiar with the ideas you are arguing against. ------ sharkbot I see a lot of criticism that lukeprog is "shallow" or "surface-oriented" on the topic of philosophy. While I don't believe he has formal training, the guy had a long-running blog and podcast covering a number of philosophical topics, including interviews with professional philosophers: <http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=1911> I think lukeprog has done much to provide himself with an unbiased philosophical education. ------ ElCongelador So the author argues for some kind of long in the tooth peculiar positivism? Had he studied just some 20th century philosophy and its problems (from positivism to analytic philosophy to post-analytic), he wouldn't make such tiresome arguments. ~~~ KarmaKaiser The thing I find odd is that I've followed Luke for some years and he's remarkably well read on these topics and assuredly know of the complications with this stance. I find his Scientific Narrative argument (Science has solved other problems, why should X be the last to fall?) problematic but he seems to lean heavily on it. ------ nachteilig Tying philosophy to usefulness in STEM disciplines is a terrible idea. Reading Kant doesn't "too much respect for failed philosophical methods"--if you read him properly it helps teach solid thinking that might even lead you to reject some of what he says. ------ br1anberg this is worse than that ayn rand post a while back ~~~ dbaupp In what way? (Genuine question.) ------ gadders The modern mis-use of the term philosopher is annoying. A philosopher isn't a philosophy professor. A philosopher is someone who lives by and espouses there own belief system. ------ cthaley Poor Plato, it seems the only sin of which he is accused, and for which he is pilloried, is that of having lived a long time ago. But for all of the comments, I can find no arguments against any thesis in Plato. And this is noteworthy. Not just because it indicates that Plato is here just a straw man and that few (if any) of his assailants here have read him, and so of course, have no grounds to criticize. But more importantly, because, Plato does not have some set of theses which even could be toppled or made irrelevant. Plato does not work like that. Philosophy does not (usually) work like that. Plato does not promulgate, he investigates. He is still taught not so much because his answers are still relevant, but because his questions are. The original article implicitly acknowledges this point when the author guesses that philosophers trained in "modern" disciplines might "get farther" than Plato on the big questions—to which one might reply: and how shall they know the big questions? Someone here pointed out that this wholesale dismissal of philosophy is a category mistake (a welcome reference to Aristotle), and I agree. If you will forgive my speaking too broadly, the difficulty many non-philosophers seem to have with philosophy is simply that they do not know what it is—and more importantly, that they have never done it. I do not fault them for this (and I'll readily admit that our academies are very much at fault here, as the professionalization of philosophy has done no favors for philosophers or non- philosophers) but one ought to have, if not enough humility, at least enough love for truth to motivate silence, study, or wonder in the face of the unknown—not slander. Philosophy (and especially Plato's philosophy) is not the sort of thing for which one uses a textbook. If you recall the Phaedrus (and if you don't recall the Phaedrus, you probably should not be commenting on philosophy) you'll remember that Plato has an argument against books. He worries that books will codify doxa in such a way as to stifle inquiry—a worry that was clearly warranted, as evidenced by this thread. Thus he preferred dialogues to dissertations, and precisely because the individual appropriation of knowledge, and the harmonizing of the person with reality, is what really counts—not knowing (or believing) a bunch of stuff. It is important to remember that Plato, even when making myths, is imminently and always practical. Those who advocate that contemporary science is better equipped than philosophy to answer the big questions, because science "examines reality, etc." fail to recognize that "reality" itself is big question. In my own experience, I have often found it amusing how quickly some "scientists" dismiss philosophy, while I've met very few philosophers who would do the same for science. It is fine if one wants to ignore philosophy, but it is hubris to dismiss it simply because it does not do what one wants it to do. ------ guard-of-terra Why "train" philosophers? When I imagine a "trained philosopher" I see a person who uses a lot of smart- sounding quotes but cannot choose between the right saying and the wrong saying. It's all the same to him, a material that he absorbed and now outputs. Challenge philosophers. Confront them. Let them take on each other. ~~~ jacques_chester So, you _imagine_ what a philosopher does, and then tell this imaginary philosopher what to do? Doesn't that strike you as awful presumptuous? ~~~ EliRivers Well, we have to imagine philosopher; the philosopher Form can only be known to us through our experiences with "philosophers" we encounter, from which we can build an idea of the true Form philosopher :p ~~~ jacques_chester Except this fellow hasn't even left the cave, he's yelling at the shadow of a shadow of a philosopher. ------ marcuskaz it's spelled "perl" ~~~ elehack Umm, no, it isn't. He's talking about Judea Pearl, the developer of Bayesian networks: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judea_Pearl> ~~~ marcuskaz it was a joke. why so serious?	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Mondo – A “Full Stack” Mobile-First Bank - tomblomfield https://getmondo.co.uk/blog ====== teh_klev The small-print: "We aren’t a bank yet, but we are applying to the Prudential Regulation Authority (PRA) and Financial Conduct Authority (FCA) for authorisation to become one" Edit: But a serious question though about your announcement. Do I really care that you are a "Full Stack" whatever bank? I'm kind of wearied by the use of "Full Stack This", "Full Stack That", this usage just makes me roll my eyes even more. If this is a way to hit up interest from techies like myself, at least explain what's in your "Stack" and how you're using said technology to differentiate yourself from say Lloyds, RBS, Barclays, First Direct etc. ~~~ jhuckestein Mondo CTO here. Good question, thanks. It's "full stack" in the banking industry sense, not the "full stack web developer" sense. Most challenger banks don't pursue a banking license and have to work with an existing licensed bank. This means they are constrained by their processes and legacy technology (think cobol on mainframes). We don't have those problems because we own the full "stack", from the user interface and the connectivity to the payment schemes all the way down to holding the actual funds with the central bank. ~~~ pjc50 Long ago in the late 90s I was an intern in a financial software company. I was told a number of tales and legends, including that one of the major British clearing banks still operated internally in pounds,shillings&pence behind a conversion layer. I wonder how true that was. ~~~ jln It's true, though no-one seems willing to name the offending bank in print. Example: [http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/5d1b0346-2af8-11dd-a7fc-000077b076...](http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/5d1b0346-2af8-11dd-a7fc-000077b07658.html) ------ m_t As I see the CTO and CEO are here, I'll add my questions to the list. 1) As you'll be based in the UK, do you have any plans with account in €? 2) Will you offer competitive (read aggressively competitive) transfer rates in €/£ with other European bank? 3) Will you have a coop state of mind (I'm thinking of The Co-Operative Bank in the UK, or Le Crédit Coopératif in France)? Thank you for your time. ~~~ tomblomfield Good questions, but probably not a level of detail that we can talk about right now. If you register for updates at getmondo.co.uk, we'll certainly keep you posted. ~~~ m_t I will, thanks for replying. ------ laugh_them_to I see the cto is in this thread. In what ways are you different than a bank like Simple? ~~~ jhuckestein Good question. I recently spend a few hours re-reading Simple's old blog and it was eerie how similar their vision, ideas and energy were! The main difference is that Simple didn't have a banking license and didn't write the core banking system themselves. They had to work with a legacy bank (Bankcorp) and were constrained by their policies and technology. It sounds like this was rather frustrating. We are building the entire bank, including the core banking system and the regulatory approval. This is what we mean by "full stack". A good example of something we can do better because of this is the signup process. You will be able to sign up from your app and use your new account within a few minutes. From a product perspective the biggest difference is that they weren't mobile first. But that would have been a bold move five years ago :) ------ charliefg A query - would having a smart phone be necessary in order to use the service? I understand that it says it lives on the smartphone but would the service still be accessible via the browser? ~~~ tomblomfield Most of the functionality will only be available via a smartphone, at least initially. ~~~ mattschmulen ok you have may attention ... \- Will you provide a native SDK (Android, iOS) ? \- Lets talk about international banking ... Specifically any current plans to be licensed in Panama? ~~~ tomblomfield Initially we'll offer a RESTful API, but we'll certainly consider native SDKs if there's a need. ------ pjc50 a) What _is_ this stack, and what's its approach to security? b) Do I get a proper API? That would be amazing. (It would also be a security nightmare, I'm sure) ~~~ tomblomfield a) We'll be releasing more details over the next few months, but it's basically Go + a mix of relational & distributed databases. The real difference is that we're not just reskinning an existing bank. Security is obviously paramount - but it's much easier to build secure software on 21st century tech than to try to secure systems from 1970s. b) Yes. ------ ptype Much needed, but a momentous task (regulatory wise). Good luck guys (I mean it)!	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Ask HN: Most Useful Undergraduate CS Courses - javanix Through fortuitous scheduling and some transfer luck, I've managed to take care of all of my course requirements before the end of my fourth year (both gen-ed and CS-specific). This means that I have almost a full semester of credits that I need to take yet (to satisfy the total-credits requirement), with no restrictions on what classes they need to be, other than that they must be applicable towards a Letters and Sciences bachelor's degree (not very restrictive at all).<p>I'm curious as to which (if any) undergraduate CS courses you found most <i>functionally</i> useful (ie, they made you a better programmer in some way) in your programming careers. ====== nostrademons The big three IMNSHO are OS Design, Compiler Design, and Computer Graphics, in that order of precedence. OS Design teaches you about trade-offs. In many academic CS courses, the answers are cut-and-dried: here's how you write a binary search, here's how you implement a hashtable, etc. In OS design, every decision has a cost, because you have to balance time spent in the kernel vs. memory cost vs. speed of user programs, and the user programs will often have wildly different usage patterns. Should you copy-on-write pages? Which scheduling algorithm should you use? There are no right answers to these questions, but there're options, there are costs, there're benefits, and these depend a lot on how your OS gets used. Much like real software. It'll also help you understand how to write performant programs, eg. if you know that the OS uses spare memory to cache file buffers but will page out memory (at the cost of millions of CPU cycles) if physical RAM is exceeded, you might look differently on rolling your own caching layer for file contents. I'm talking to you, Squid folks. ;-) Compiler design is essential if you want to learn how to write code that writes code, which is essential if you don't want your job to be outsourced. It teaches you about complex data structures and how they're transformed into other complex data structures, which is useful for a lot more than just general-purpose programming languages. Chances are, you'll end up writing a "little language" - even if it's just the configuration system for a large product - at some point in your career, and you're stuck with a bunch of ad- hoc hacks if you've never taken compilers. Computer graphics I included partially because it's cool and partially because it's one of the most mathematical courses you can take in college. You learn about fast matrix transformations, computational geometry, derivatives, and how to implement abstract mathematical operations on a computer. This ends up being useful in a lot of high-paying subfields (eg. finance, search, data- mining, operations research) and a few relatively low-paying ones (eg. computer games). Honorable mentions: AI, theory of computation, concurrency, crypto. These will probably not be directly useful in your job (except concurrency, but you can pick up a lot of the important ideas of that on your own), but they're very cool and nifty to know. ~~~ sidmitra I found Digital Image Processing to be the most fun and educational and the assignments were a major reason. The visual output acts as a pretty good motivator. The same probably goes for Computer Graphics. I was never so thrilled looking that the output of a Prolog interpreter that i made. But maybe that's just me. ------ throw_away if you happen to be at cal, the single most functionally useful class I took there was hilfinger's programming for blood: <http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/Courses/Data/701.html> the premise of this class was to build a better team for the ACM programming contest, but I learned a ton about the actual mechanics of programming, rather than just the theory--- similar to the ideas vs. execution meme that floats around here. I think what made it so different from the rest of my courses were a) we spent lots of time reading code and looking at different solutions to the same problem and b) the competitive nature of the class. ------ BrentRitterbeck Do they offer some kind of numerical analysis class cross-listed with the mathematics department? This is a class I wish I would have picked up. I now have to teach myself numerical analysis, and there is so much material to choose from that I don't know what the correct sequence of learning things should be. My methodology is diving into GSL and picking things apart until I come to something I don't understand. Then I go and research that. Then I start picking more apart. I'm sure a lot of my headaches could be prevented if I were learning things in a "proper" order. ------ scott_s I endorse everything nostrademons said, but I'd like to add some comparative programming languages course - which often is complementary to a compilers course. My comparative course was my first exposure to functional and logic programming - it was, in fact, the first time that I was forced to consider the entire concept of a "programming paradigm." It transformed the way I think about programming. ------ embeddedradical Discrete Mathematics courses ~~~ emontero1 I couldn't agree more. Discrete Mathematics is one of those areas I wish I'd explored further during my undergrad years. Logic, set theory, operations research, and information theory will all prove to be fundamentally important in your later years, irrespective of your ultimate concentration. ------ javanix Thanks for the info guys. I should probably add that our school doesn't offer any sort of work-study credit in CS, so that's the reason I'm sticking around campus for the last semester (well, that and no desire to kill myself for my last "real semester" just to get out a semester early). ~~~ scott_s Just read in your profile that you're at Wisconsin. Madison, I assume? I took a look at the schedule for next year, and it looks like the compilers course is a combo compilers and programming languages - which is excellent. I highly recommend it. Looking at that list, I also strongly recommend introduction to computer architecture. Having a solid grasp of what's actually going on in a processor will make you a better programmer. Between architecture, programming languages/compilers and operating systems, you will have all of the concepts necessary to understand the semantics of the programs you write, what kind of code will actually be generated from those semantics, and a basic understanding of the entire system stack from your program, to the operating system, down to the processor. Madison is an excellent school, take advantage of your time there. ------ mikebo Databases! It's where theory and data structures meet in practice. ------ dandelany I really enjoyed taking AI and a Natural Language Processing class my senior year. ------ sarvesh If you can find a course that teaches finite automata and formal languages you should definitely take that in addition to those already mentioned.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
First bug of 2011: iOS alarms not going off? - Bud http://www.macnn.com/articles/10/12/31/reports.of.alarm.issues.continue.to.plague.ios.4/ ====== ihodes This cost me a couple hours of work this morning, and put me in a generally bad mood. I need to wake up and be alert (driving 12 hours in inclement weather) at 5 tomorrow, and sleeping in a few hours messes that up royally. These are the kind of bugs that screw with people's trust, along with messed up calendars and call-dropping. This is _not_ okay, and should not have happened. ~~~ runjake But it does happen. More complexity == likely more bugs. ------ bretpiatt "The workaround for this new bug is to set all standalone alarms to recurring after midnight. Tests done by 9to5Mac indicate that the bug will correct itself on January 3rd, but until then readers are advised not to solely rely on alarms set on devices using iOS 4.x." What, "..the bug will correct itself.."? Color me confused but how do you end up with a "self healing 48 hour bug"? Anyone able to provide some clarity? ~~~ aston The Zune had a similar self-healing bug at the end of 2008. There was a fencepost error that resolved itself once the internal calendar code no longer thought it was the 366th day of the year. So, basically, a one day bug. [http://www.zuneboards.com/forums/zune-news/38143-cause- zune-...](http://www.zuneboards.com/forums/zune-news/38143-cause- zune-30-leapyear-problem-isolated.html) Obviously this isn't the same bug, but it's fun to see the broken code and speculate about similar sorts logic errors that could lead to this working like normal in a couple days. ------ jonknee It's really surprising to me that there is another alarm bug. This isn't exactly a tricky subject and should be easy testable. ~~~ xenophanes If date and timezone related code seems simple/easy to you then you're using libraries! It's messy and easy to mess up! ~~~ jonknee And Apple isn't using libraries? Also, the time/date has been correct, just the alarm app failing to activate on time. ------ chrisolsen It doesn't seem like it is just iOS. I noticed an issue in my conky display this morning. You should be able to see the bug on a *nix box with: > date '+%m-%d-%G' # shows up as 01-01-2010 where as the following works fine. >date '+%m-%d-%y' # 01-01-2011 I guess it's not really a bug since %G is the year of ISO week number, but it would be easy for something like this to go unnoticed until the invalid date pops up. ------ beej71 Android: We are all ready to win, just as we are born knowing only life. It is defeat that you must learn to prepare for. iPhone: I don't waste my time with it. When it comes, I won't even notice. Android: Oh? How so? iPhone: I'll be too busy lookin' goood. ------ kmfrk Has anything like this happened on Android? I'm an iPhone user, but there are some really facepalm-stupid bugs on iOS that takes away from the platform's image as something polished and perfected. ~~~ nodata Yep. Android 2.0 (I think) has a bug where alarms will be delayed while the phone's cpu is in sleep mode. This can mean they go off up to an hour late.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
LiveJournal stripping users' affiliate links - daleharvey http://vichan.livejournal.com/392527.html ====== swombat Stripping affiliate links from freely hosted blogs = dubious, but just about defensible Stripping affiliate links from freely hosted blogs AND replacing them with your own links = unacceptably sleazy Stripping affiliate links from paid blogs and replacing them with your own links = outright offensive? Extra serving of fail? What's next? Inserting porn ads into people's blogs? ~~~ barrkel It's even worse - not only is it stripping links, it's often actually _breaking_ them. The www.glutenfreebay.com example actually should redirect to glutenfreebay.blogspot.com, but instead it's heading to ebay.com. ~~~ zaatar It's actually any domain with the word "bay" that redirects to ebay.com: <http://www.crittersbythebay.com> for example. ~~~ djcapelis Uhm, you're aware that link has "ebay.com" as the last 8 characters of the domain, right? ~~~ mbreese What does that have to do with it? If I put to a link to "ifreakinghateebay.com" would it be okay if they rediected it to ebay? No, of course not. ~~~ djcapelis Oh, it's clearly broken, it's just the comment I was replying to asserted that anything with the word bay in it triggers the breakage. This seems to be unlikely. The fact that the behavior was broken and links unrelated to ebay were being redirected to ebay was already well established by that point in the thread. Understanding which links are affected by this issue and the scope of the problem might be relevant. In fact, one might go ahead and leap to the conclusion based on our revised understanding (that it does in-fact likely need ebay.com in the url to trigger) that this error is being caused by an unfortunately constructed regular expression or overaggressive pattern match and one might even learn something. But far be it from me to assume that such a far fetched conjecture has anything to do with it. ~~~ dandelany !!"eBay.com".match(/ebay.com/i); //true !!"CrittersByTheBay.com".match(/ebay.com/i); //true !!"ThePirateBay.com".match(/ebay.com/i); //true ------ mixmax It's interesting to note that the sites that are most successful in the long run are the ones that take the higher ground and employ some basic ethics and decency - and actually live by it. This is a perfect example of a sleazy practice that, while it might make them some petty cash in the short run, will end up costing more in bad press and fleeing customers than the gained revenue. ------ mumrah I will always remember LiveJournal as the reason for Memcache being invented. It's funny how you can be nostalgic about a key-value system... ------ Willie_Dynamite They've disabled it. [http://www.livejournal.com/support/see_request.bml?id=106017...](http://www.livejournal.com/support/see_request.bml?id=1060179) ~~~ bbatsell They've _claimed_ to disable it, but it's still active. (Just click the "glutenfreebay" link in the OP.) ~~~ Willie_Dynamite I did before I posted the link, and I didn't get redirected to eBay. ~~~ pyre That link is currently still redirecting me to ebay.com. ~~~ Willie_Dynamite I don't have a lj account and I'm not ebayed. Both Chrome and FF steadfastly refuses to steal my click. ~~~ pyre Could have been a caching issue. The link is no longer broken for me. ------ jonknee <http://drivingrevenue.com/> was the firm running the redirector... Looks shady as hell. ~~~ ramchip _Driving Revenue is full service affiliate marketing solution comprised of online marketers, developers and analysts. Our mission is to equip site owners with a variety of powerful and innovative tools designed to maximize their online ventures. We use cutting-edge solutions that provide a compressive and customized approach to your Internet environment. In short: we help you monetize your existing traffic._ Well, it sounds like they leverage core skillsets and world-class team synergy to provide clients worldwide with robust, scalable, modern turnkey implementations of flexible, personalized, cutting-edge Internet-enabled e-business application product suite e-solution architectures that accelerate response to customer and real-world market demands and reliably adapt to evolving technology needs, seamlessly and efficiently integrating and synchronizing with their existing legacy infrastructure, enhancing the e-readiness capabilities of their e-commerce production environments across the enterprise while giving them a critical competitive advantage and taking them to the next level. Joke aside I do seriously wonder how they came up with the "compressive and customized approach to your Internet environment"... ~~~ ktsmith Someone seriously misspelled comprehensive and when they ran it through spell check it came out with compressive. ------ invisible It may very well be malicious, but it really sounds like someone made a boneheaded mistake. It was not suppose to "strip" affiliate links. I believe that - I really do. The intended purpose was to add affiliate links to links that do not have affiliate codes attached. I would totally do that if I ran LiveJournal and it makes perfect sense. ------ dotBen Ok serious question... What do people feel about url shorteners doing this? Also, what about free twitter clients - as a mechanism for monetization? ~~~ pyre If you read the whole thing (links and all) you'll find this nugget of a comment: Ooh, wait, I can do one better: I'm telling Amazon. (Anybody with me? A plurality of e-mail speaks louder than one.) This is in strict violation of the Operation Agreement for the Associate program, which forbids attempts to hide links, links being processed through redirects, failure to disclose use of the Affiliate program, and tampering with other Affiliate links without disclosure. I'm sure there are plenty of similar clauses in the affliate programs from other e-commerce sites (and if there aren't it's an oversight for sure). Assuming that you're asking about stripping affilate ids and replacing them with your own, then that's a shady, shady business and I wouldn't touch any VC with a ten-foot pole that would fund you that idea. How would you even propose to grow such a business seeing as you're in clear violation of the terms of the programs you would be relying on for revenue? It would be like proposing a startup where you hire ex-cons to mug people nightly in parks nationwide for a cut of their 'earnings.' Would you really think that such an idea had any thought put towards the future of the business? If you're talking about pattern-matching URLs and redirecting to the wrong site (e.g. DownByTheBay.com -> eBay.com), then that kind of breaks the idea of a URL shortener. The shortened URL is supposed to take you to the location of the full URL. ~~~ jrockway What is Amazon going to do about a Russian company? ~~~ mbrubeck Cancel their affiliate account and refuse to pay any earnings from their referrals? ~~~ jrockway Ah, I didn't know they were redirecting anyone to Amazon. I thought the blogger's referral codes were being removed from links. ~~~ mbrubeck Yeah, they were removing bloggers' referral codes from Amazon links and substituting their own. ------ mseebach This has the taste of a troll, but I mean it as a sincere question: Why are people still on LiveJournal? I get that they more-or-less invented the blog as we know it, but what do they bring to table today? Doesn't pretty much any other free blog service offer a superior experience? ~~~ allenbrunson livejournal really isn't in the same category as blogs. it's got a much greater community aspect. you have a friends list, and you can make entries that only people on your friends list can see. lj has threaded comments that actually work, which is untrue of most of the rest of the blogosphere. there are standalone lj communities, which blogging platforms don't have. and so on. ------ jasonwilk Blackhat Tactics FTW!!!!	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Bombax: OS X Web Development Platform - bensummers http://www.bombaxtic.com/bombax/ ====== Padraig Bizarre! I guess it could be tempting for long time Cocoa developers who don't already know Rails or PHP? Though if they're building a basic website, rudimentary PHP would be less hassle, and if they're building a web app and want familiar territory, Cappuccino would be a better choice. The trend in web apps is to do more of the work client side through Javascript (see GWT, SproutCore and Cappuccino) so a new server side framework seems a bit late to the party. Performance as a result of compiled code seems to be the only real selling point, and in my experience, server-side code performance is not a widespread problem... I don't begrudge someone hacking together something new for the fun of it, but this comes across as a real company trying to make a profit. Who's going to actually use this? ~~~ allertonm +1 I have a lot of time for Objective-C and Cocoa for desktop and mobile development. I'd go so far as to say it's a huge factor in the success of the Mac and iPhone platforms. It's pretty unique in supporting AOT, compiled-to- native executables while offering dynamic language and runtime features. However the reasons it works so well for those purposes (low memory footprint, fast application startup time) don't seem very relevant for server development - and the downsides (#1 being the ability of coding mistakes to corrupt memory and/or abort the process) become huge liabilities for a server. So my guess is that this framework is going to come out on the wrong side of any cost/benefit analysis. ------ blasdel Everyone's correctly assuming that using this for hosting a public service on the internet would be an awful idea. But if you have a desktop Mac or iPhone app that needs a localhosted web interface or HTTP API, this approach could easily be way better than dealing with a second language runtime. ~~~ boucher Probably true. There's one or two other tiny embedded Objective-C web server designed for that purpose out there. We've got just such an app, but we're running our backend process in JavaScript. ------ tptacek Web apps in Objective C --- the second-least safe programming language on the market. Oh please, oh please, build your next huge application in this. College tuition for my kids is freaking me out. ~~~ s-phi-nl Why is Objective-C so unsafe? From what little I know about it, I see no reason why it should be less safe than, say, Smalltalk. If Objective-C is the second-least safe language, what is the least safe language? ~~~ tptacek Smalltalk is garbage-collected. ObjC deals in raw memory addresses. It's actually _less_ secure than C, as I see it. ~~~ allertonm This doesn't affect your point, since ObjC does still deal in raw memory addresses, but it has supported garbage-collection since Objective-C 2.0 (i.e since Leopard/10.5) ~~~ tptacek Yeah, I need a better term for high-level-language than "garbage collected" (I do some Cocoa dev in my spare time, and I do like being able to ignore reference counting. Oh! Reference counting! Another security weakness with Cocoa.) ------ Maro The guy on the picture is using a PC! ~~~ telemachos Stock photos strike again... ------ docmach If they wanted an Objective-C web framework it seems like they would have been better off improving GNUstep Web. From looking at the site I don't see what makes this special other than using Cocoa. It might have some compelling features that GNUstep Web doesn't, but they don't make it easy to find out what they are. ~~~ Zev Running on Mac OS X with the newer, shinier ObjC 2.0 runtime is greatly preferred to running on GNUstep. Not to mention GCD or Core Data (GNUstep Core Data is primitive in comparison. Not to mention, you know, basically a dead project). Of course, I'm more likely to just use Ruby or Cappuccino if I need to make something more complicated than a basic website. But I can see the appeal in this sort of framework. ~~~ boucher Running on Mac OS X is a pretty tough sell, though. Ultimately, it's far more expensive than comparable servers running Linux or even Windows. Most of this is that there aren't many people offering OS X based server solutions, but even if you're willing to run your own hardware, Xserves are on the expensive side of things. ------ aaronbrethorst Compiled code? Persisting Data: TBD? I think I'll stick to Rails for now. This does sound like an interesting piece of software, though. ------ yan I would love for people to write their web apps using this framework, then pay me to pentest them. ~~~ docmach Why? What makes this framework better to do penetration testing on than other frameworks? ~~~ yan It is written in Objective-C, which is not a type-safe language.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
U.S. Taxpayers Are Gouged on Mass Transit Costs - tokenadult http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-08-26/u-s-taxpayers-are-gouged-on-mass-transit-costs.html ====== bane Absolutely, absurdly true. The D.C. metro is adding a new line, almost all of it will be above ground and on existing right-of-way reserved specifically for the eventual construction of the line decades ago and operate in fairly low density part of the system. It'll be 37km long and run $6.8 billion dollars. It'll have 29 stations. Compare to the new Seoul Bundang line which is 32.8km with 28 stations in some of the most dense urban areas on the planet. It'll run a bit under $400 million to build or about 1/17th the cost. Once open, it'll probably cost riders under a dollar for most trips, compared to over $3 on the DC Metro. No matter how you figure it, cost of labor, eminent domain, legal, whatever, there's simply no way to figure the D.C. costs as making sense when a world away a similar line, in another developed country with far more difficult construction issues is much cheaper in every way possible. ~~~ whatusername 7 Billion for 29 stations and a full line? I wish. [http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/south-morang-finally- gets-...](http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/south-morang-finally-gets-its- line-20120422-1xf4u.html) 1/2 a billion for extending the line 3km and building 1 station. (All in the suburbs - where there used to be a train line that was ripped up) ~~~ rosser Just an off-hand observation: Australia also has a common-law legal system, which TFA suggests correlates strongly positively with out-of-control prices on such projects. ~~~ riffic The article pointed out the common-law legal system being the cause, so what would be the solution? Better legislation to fix bidding? ~~~ shard972 > Better legislation to fix bidding? Ins't that the solution to every legislation problem? Do it better next time? ------ jt2190 I'm not trying to pick a fight here, but the United States strongly rejects, on a cultural level, the notion of a professional class of government employees. From the article: > A huge part of the problem is that agencies can’t keep > their private contractors in check. Starved of funds and > expertise for in-house planning, officials contract out > the project management and early design concepts to > private companies that have little incentive to keep > costs down and quality up. And even when they know > better, agencies are often forced by legislation, courts > and politicians to make decisions that they know aren’t > in the public interest. All you ever hear about at election time in the U.S. is "big government waste." My colleague from Spain tells me that in Spain everyone goes to work for the government, and that entrepreneurship is lacking. Perhaps that means that in order to have cost-efficient mass-transit projects in the U.S. we need a Spanish-style government and culture. ~~~ Anechoic _I'm not trying to pick a fight here, but the United States strongly rejects, on a cultural level, the notion of a professional class of government employees._ This is an excellent point. When the US Federal or a state government agency decides they need to link point A and point B with a transportation project, the agency typically only provides a basic outline of project requirements. Outside contractors are used to develop the more detailed requirements, and even the RFP for design and construction. This creates a situation where big engineering firms try very hard (and often succeed) in creating RFPs that _only they are qualified for_. Yes, this really happens. In fact, whenever I read an RFP the number one question on my mind is "is this written so that only XXX firm can win it?" The answer tends to be "yes" in many cases and we don't bother bidding on it. The obvious solution would be to prevent companies that write RFPs from bidding on the project. The problem is that no one (or at least no one _good_ ) would want to bid on the RFP prep work! If given the chance to win a $250,000 RFP preparation project, or a $500 million general engineering contract/$10 billion construction contract, the highly qualified firms will wait to take a shot at the larger work. ~~~ danmaz74 The solution would be to have an internal technical agency that is able to write the RFP. Especially one where the incentives (bonuses etc) are tied to the long term success of projects. ~~~ Anechoic In addition to adestefan's point, think about the qualifications the "technical agency" would need to have, and now you have another large government bureaucracy which isn't so popular these days. For a transit project, this technical agency would need expertise in the following areas (at a minimum): \- vehicle procurement \- infrastructure procurement \- construction management \- geology and geotechnical engineering \- noise & vibration \- pest control \- air quality \- fire safety \- dust control \- archeology \- animal migration \- water quality & watershed And you would need enough staff in those areas to handle the workload. I would support such an agency, but many folks would not. ~~~ danmaz74 "and now you have another large government bureaucracy which isn't so popular these days": That is exactly my point. Of course, if being a civil servant not only pays less (as adestefan says), but it also brings the stigma of being "just a bureaucrat", you're not going to have very good people there. But things don't have necessarily to be so: Serving the common good is a very motivating goal for many people; not everybody just goes after the biggest paycheck. At least where money isn't the only measure for everything. ------ kevinconroy Seems questionable to me. Yes the Second Ave Subway is expensive, but how many cities are building new subway lines underground through incredibly dense existing infrastructure? Also, US taxpayers may be making up for it by paying more upfront but less per ride (unless you live in DC or San Fran): City Cost per Ride Mexico $0.15 Beijing $0.29 Seoul $0.55 Moscow $0.69 Tokyo $1.68 Barcelona $1.76 NYC $1.96 Boston $2.00 Paris $2.25 Chicago $2.25 Toronto $2.37 Berlin $2.95 DC $3.08 San Fran $3.18 Stockholm $3.96 London $4.41 Source: [http://www.treehugger.com/cars/subway-fares-around-the- world...](http://www.treehugger.com/cars/subway-fares-around-the-world.html) ~~~ vidarh At least for London, that list is very wrong. The most expensive single zone journey on Oyster is 2 GBP, or $3.20 at current exchange rates. ~~~ lifeisstillgood Hate to be pedantic about it but the oyster is a discount card (that everyone but tourists uses) - a single is really about 4 quid all zones ~~~ Lockyy Indeed, £2 seemed extremely low, especially considering a return ticket along the liverpool -> wirral line in the north is >£3.50 ~~~ NickPollard The £2 he mentioned is a single, so a return would be £4 (there are no returns on the underground, only singles and all-day passes) Regarding Oyster vs. paper tickets, I believe the non-Oyster prices are deliberately inflated to coerce people into using Oyster, as it is much better for the system if they do (especially on buses, where Oyster payments make stops _so_ much quicker). ~~~ Ntrails I've been writing the odd letter to ministers etc to get an Oyster style system implemented nationally. No ticket booking. No queueing. No hassle. Lowest/discounted prices. But of course the government won't countenance actually organising something that might be better for rail users, not to mention that as soon as it was mentioned the unions said it was just a way to reduce staffing (may or may not be a side effect) at stations and made moves to stop it. ~~~ lifeisstillgood And that is exactly why driverless buses on driverless bus lanes will wipe out commuter rail in 10-15 years. Perhaps the vast infrastrucutre, subsidies and resources could be repointed at really useful services, but some unions in some industries ( and the RMT is one) are so reactionary it gives Lenin a good name, and some management in some industries (and British railfranchisees are one) are so rabbit-in- headlights dumb and hemmed in by pensions regulations and on subsidies for life support that oh brother I throw my hands in the air and go looking for a cab ------ scottfr I few years back I was thinking of running for the board of AC Transit in the bay area. I did some research: the cost per mile to move a person on AC Transit was ~ $1.50 (total cost including subsidies, not what you pay). Compare that to a cost to pay for a cab to take you one mile of ~ $3.00. So if you have two people in a cab, that cab is just as economically efficient as a bus. Literally, a car that waits for your call, comes right to your door, and chauffeurs you around, is as economically efficient as our bus system. This is crazy! We could replace AC Transit with a fleet of cabs. Also, I've heard that the "Nextbus" system which makes those predictions for when the next bus is arriving makes most of their money fixing the next bus sensors. The reason the sensors are broken is AC Transit employees continually sabotage them because they hate being tracked. Truly, it is an incredibly screwed up system. Anyways, I was too busy to run for the board of directors, but someone really need to fix AC Transit! ~~~ tokenadult _Literally, a car that waits for your call, comes right to your door, and chauffeurs you around, is as economically efficient as our bus system. This is crazy!_ I recall that when San Francisco retrofitted its city buses so that all are accessible to people using wheelchairs, an economic analysis showed it would be cheaper for the city taxpayers simply to provide free taxi service to all wheelchair users. The reason for putting people who use wheelchairs on city buses seems to have been wholly political--to mainstream such persons into a form of transportation that makes them more visible to other members of the public (at least, the members of the public who use buses). I have both an emotional reaction and a rational reaction to this policy trade-off. On the one hand, my own late father was confined to a wheelchair as a quadriplegic (after a slip-and-fall accident on an icy parking lot here in Minnesota) for the last six years of his life. So I totally get why friends and relatives of persons who use wheelchairs want public places, and by extension public transportation, to be accessible to persons who use wheelchairs. That allows many more family outings with grandparents and their grandchildren than might otherwise be possible, for example. But my rational reaction is still that we all have to work hard to pay our taxes, so "public" money (money derived from taxation) should still be spent responsibly. If devoting taxi service (and, I hope, someday a self-driving car service) with public subsidies helps needy members of the population more than bus service, so be it. Spend the least money to get the positive externality is generally the way to go in public policy. ~~~ DenisM > If devoting taxi service (and, I hope, someday a self-driving car service) I think the idea is not to make disabled people go from point A to point B, but to integrate them into society. There is nothing worse for an injured/disabled person than to be isolated, they will get clinically depressed. It's not one of those "man up and tough it out, soldier" situations - societal acceptance is crucial to mental health. Yes, we should spend money responsibly and not spend more than needed to reach the goal, but the goal must be stated inclusively. A self-driving car is the exact opposite of what is needed. ~~~ Dove I find it odd to place the priority on having people _in the car_ rather than people _at the destination_. Wouldn't you rather socialize with people of your choice at your party/book club/sewing group/whatever than with the weird and awkward people who happen to be on the bus? I know I would. Especially if the former situation is more efficient, so I get to go more places. Put another way, the city I live in (Denver) _has_ what is essentially a taxi service for disabled folks (<http://www3.rtd-denver.com/elbert/accessARide>). I know a couple of folks in wheel chairs -- and they use it a lot! I've never once heard them say they felt isolated because they weren't standard bus routes full of people. On the contrary, not being able to go where their friends were going is what would be isolating. ~~~ DenisM People tend to have fewer friends and become less able as they get older, and even incidental interaction is still vastly better than none. If we had a way to make sure disabled people always have company and no one is left behind, I might agree to the idea of taking them off the busses and giving the (semi)private rides. But we shouldn't assume they all have friends to go see just because you always had such friends. And then, spatial mobility is also very important. For example, I felt absolutely trapped by my relatively benign broken foot problem. ------ sutro Consider: it took about 3 years in the heart of the Great Depression to build both the Golden Gate Bridge and the Bay Bridge. Since the 1989 quake, a project has been underway to rebuild the Bay Bridge's eastern span. That project continues today, 23 years later, at a huge multiple of the inflation- adjusted cost of the original bridge. ------ DenisM FWIW, I spent some time researching the cost of tunnel-digging online, and off the top of my head, the costs were $30m/mile in India, $100m/mile in US, and $1b/mile in New York city. The reason I dug through this was to explore possibility of building an entire city where all motorized transportation is under ground, and surface area is reserved for pedestrians, wheelchairs, and bicycles. IIRC, the cost of tunneling came out comparable to the cost of housing, so it's not a completely unreasonable idea. Imagine a 10km grid of 20-40 story residential buildings spaced out with trees and parks and bike/walk paths among them for miles on end? And an underground entrance every 1000 meters. No cars on the street, no noise, no traffic lights - go/ride where you please. Now if only I had the budget to build a brand-new city I would start now. :) ~~~ enf Congratulations! You are Le Corbusier and you have invented midcentury modernist city planning. In all seriousness, if you are going to build a city with no vehicles on the surface, Towers in a Park is not the way to do it. There are many successful examples of medieval cities with high enclosure, and no successful examples of modernist cities with low enclosure. People are very sensitive to distance, and the only way they will ever walk from one of those towers to another is if there is also something interesting or useful for them to look at every 20-30 feet along the way. ~~~ DenisM And to be sure, I am not married to the low-enclosure idea. I did the math for the worst-case scenario: "what if everyone wants plenty of space around?". If people in fact prefer higher enclosure I would have no qualms about spacing the buildings three times as closely, and maybe setting aside parts of the real estate for greenbelts a-la central park in NYC. That would actually allow me to achieve even higher population density, which is the goal I was shooting for. My only concern is that such approach creates non-uniformity in desirability of different buildings, which may in turn create population density distortions and thus trafic abnormalities. So I would have to schedule more busses in some areas. Too much thinking for a concept, but certainly manageable if one were to actually build this. ~~~ ef4 Isn't non-uniformity critical? Without it, there's no reason to go anywhere. ~~~ DenisM I think uniformity of density allows for uniformity of traffic, however that does not require uniformity of "culture and ambiance" for lack of a better term. If there are 10 million people in the city you can have vastly different ambiance in different parts of the city, yet with roughly equal number of people trying to get to any such spot at any point in time. Does it make sense? I am trying to avoid a situation where some parts of the city are much more popular that others for people at large, and I think that does not contradict that some part of the city would be more attractive to a subset of people. ------ rickmb Seems to me like the author is very selectively shopping in non-US examples in order to just go on an anti public-transport rant. In most places in Europe costs of mass transit projects are notorious for spiraling out of control, and unlike the Madrid example other Western countries tend to do exactly the opposite and usually spend a lot more money on prestigious design and architecture of public works than is common in the US. And that's okay, because besides the notoriously crappy and corrupt management of these projects by government officials, the results are worth it. ~~~ Symmetry Yes, but they spiral from 1/3 of what a typical US bid would be to 1/3 of what the final US price tag would be. It isn't more than an order of magnitue like with Spain, but France, Germany, etc all still end up paying much less than the US for comparable rail systems. ------ rayiner American construction projects suffer from tremendous over-engineering. Here in Chicago we have the El and the Metra, which were built a hundred years or so ago. The El runs through the city mostly on elevated tracks above the existing roadways. The elevated tracks are supported by simple steel frameworks above the roadway. There's not a lot of room for stations, so they are simple platforms hovering over the intersections with stairs leading up to them. The floors are wood plank and there are some metal railings. The Metra is similarly simple. Metra tracks run on embankments across the city. They're simple dirt embankments with a retaining wall. Simple metal bridges cross the roadways, without a huge amount of clearance. The stations are mostly just wood and metal platforms with wooden railings, with wooden stairs leading up from street level. This all works really well--Metra is the busiest commuter rail system outside of NYC, shuttling 300,000 people into the downtown core every day. Now, compare this to the new Silver line in DC. It's monstrously over- engineered, even though it runs on a dedicated right of way. Instead of running the train on a simple embankment in the middle of the road or on a simple raised platform, it runs on a huge elevated concrete platform: [http://transportationnation.org/wp- content/uploads/2012/09/0...](http://transportationnation.org/wp- content/uploads/2012/09/07.03.12news-cooper-silver-line-edit.jpg) And this is in a low-density suburban area! Compare this to the El: [http://marcel-marchon.com/img--117945132--Chicago-El- train--...](http://marcel-marchon.com/img--117945132--Chicago-El-train--m.jpg) Transit does not need to cost a billion dollars per mile. Just build elevated metal-framework tracks above the existing roadways. It's cheap, durable, and actually much more pleasant for riders than going to a stifling underground subway station. ------ mcphilip The recent article in Esquire about rebuilding the world trade center sheds a lot of light into the particularly inept NY & NJ Port Authority mentioned in this bloomberg piece. [http://www.esquire.com/print-this/world-trade-center- rebuild...](http://www.esquire.com/print-this/world-trade-center- rebuilding-0912?page=all) ~~~ tnuc I wonder why Bloomberg has such a problem with the NY & NJ Port Authority? Oh that's right, Bloomberg is the Mayor and would rather give the contract to someone more _cough_ _deserving_. ------ robomartin This article is one-sided. The problem is that it is aimed at the wrong side. Yes, government purchasing and management of projects is a disaster. I have first hand experience in this realm. As a taxpayer you almost want to cry when you see it happen. I won't get into the nitty-gritty of the details. I saw, as an example, a government agency pay DOUBLE what they would have paid for a commodity computer accessory. They had bids (mine, among others, I am sure) that cut their costs in half. Yet, they went with the bid that doubled their costs. Why? Because those doing the buying were so incompetent and insecure that they wanted one supplier to provide all the components rather than allowing the best suppliers to come in and provide them with competitive pricing. It was "cover my ass" at it's best. Let's not even mention the ridiculous rules that make it nearly impossible for small businesses to participate and expensive for others to do so. To make matters worst, this particular contract was awarded to a foreign supplier. The funds came from Obama's "American Reinvestment and Recovery Act". Money that was supposed to create jobs in the US went out of the country. When confronted with this reality they came back saying that the company in question had sales offices in the US and that they had formed a corporation in the US and that this qualified them as a US entity. Holy crap! I firmly believe that we'd do far better if government wasn't involved in most of this stuff. I'm not sure how that can happen, but the idea is appealing to me. I said that the article is one-sided because it completely ignores on of the real reasons why these construction projects are so expensive and take so long: unionized workers. To put it plainly, their purpose in life is to rape the US taxpayer for as much as they can get and, in the process, provide themselves with as much pay, benefits, vacation and short work days as possible. And we keep paying for them once they retire in the form of ridiculous lifetime pensions. The real cost of that tunnel is probably far greater once you take into account having to pay those workers' pensions for life. Examples of ridiculous union behavior abound. If you've ever had to work with or within a unionized system you've probably experienced the state of disbelief most rational people experience when they realize what's going on. Take, as an example, doing a trade-show in NYC. I have dozens of examples of union bullshit, but I'll just mention one. We did a show where we needed to have a light turned off above our booth. That's it. The request was that simple: Please turn off the light above our booth. Of course, a union electrician had to do this. The fee? $368. Three hundred and sixty eight dollars for the guy to go over to the breaker panel and flip a switch. OK, here's another. You are not allowed to plug in your devices into the electrical system. You know, what you do at home and at the office all the time. Nope, a union electrician has the necessary expertise to install an extension cord and plug in your computer into the AC outlet. I forget what the fee was for that, but it was ridiculous. Our solution? We did all of our booth setup work at night. The union workers in the night shift are lazier than shit. They don't want to work. So, they let you do almost whatever you want as long as you let them sleep on the job. Sometimes you'd have to slip someone a hundred dollar bill to be left alone. Far better than dealing with their bullshit. I have not had to work with unionized construction crews. I can only imagine how much worst the whole thing must be. The best thing that could happen to this country is if unions were outlawed. Of course, that will never happen. I'd sure be nice though. Imagine, people actually having to work for a living. And, produce, behave, be responsible, be capable, compete, etc. What a concept. Dont' get me started about the planned California high-speed rail. It's a $68 billion money grab designed to feed unions and keep politicians who favor them in power. The money will never be recovered. The line makes no sense whatsoever. Sick. ~~~ danmaz74 The facts cited in the article show that in "socialist" Europe, where unions are much stronger and governments bigger, mass transit is less expensive to build and more efficient to operate. How do you explain that? ~~~ robomartin You can't make that argument. The environments are very different. It's like trying to build a Silicon Valley somewhere outside of Silicon Valley. The environment is different. Some have tried, but it is hard or nearly impossible. Unions in the US are a cancer that is killing this country. I don't know what the solutions is. I, for one, avoid buying any products that come from unionized work forces whenever I can. Sometimes there are no choices. I have to drive on the roads as they exist, for example, but, as much as it hurts me, you will not find me buying an American car. ~~~ ktizo Union membership in the US is very very low and accounts for ~7% of the private workforce and only ~11% overall. Finland, for comparison, has ~70% union membership, and also tops the rankings for education, among other things. Convincing low waged people that the unions are in some way anti-american is just pure evil genius and took an amazing amount of chutzpa by the politicians who claim to represent them. ~~~ andyakb Yes, but what percent of workers in the public sector are unionized? The answer is 37%, and I would guess that their hourly pay [all compensation included] is significantly higher than their non union counterparts, and the quality of work is much lower. That is the argument being made. ~~~ ktizo There are apparently ~120 million people employed in the US and under 8 million of them are both unionised and in the public sector. So they are doing pretty well if they are causing so much trouble, considering there really isn't all that many of them. One of the groups with the highest union membership in the public sector in the US, is the fire department. So if the argument about union members is right, then presumably the fire departments are full of some of the laziest low quality workers around, and you should be able to map union membership by the length of time that the cities are just left to burn. ------ ChrisNorstrom I'm trying my best to see things from both side's point of view. Maybe it has to do with Supply and Demand? Because Europe and Asia invest substantially more in their public transit networks, there's more of a market, more companies that build the networks, more competition, more experience, and more tried and true cheaper methods. While in the USA, we've got less public transit, less experience building it, a smaller market for building it, less companies that construct networks, and less competition between them, thus the cost is higher due to it being a specialty that few companies understand. ~~~ JumpCrisscross The hypothesised condition could be easily aleviated by hiring those non-US contractors who are performing so well overseas. Bombardier's bid for the high-speed Amtrak line between New York and Washington, D.C. being messed up by U.S. regulators [1], however, points to political factors. [1] [http://www.economist.com/blogs/gulliver/2012/07/amtraks- high...](http://www.economist.com/blogs/gulliver/2012/07/amtraks-high-speed- ambitions) ------ rdl I wonder how much of the "libertarian" bias in the US overall is a result of the particular inefficiency of government projects in the US (obviously purely private projects are more efficient than US government funded projects), and how much is a cause (by forcing use of contractors/consultants). Maybe this explains the difference between the US and Asia/Europe rationally, rather than as some major difference in philosophy given the same facts in each place. ------ mmphosis [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_consp...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_conspiracy) ~~~ mturmon Not a downvoter, but this theory gets tossed around in bars and over dinner in LA sometimes (LA was one of several cities where this scenario played out). Short summary, it's not clear, in LA at least, if the GM/Goodyear "intentional destruction" scenario really did the Red Line in. The ridership had been decreasing for several years before the purchase of the Red Line. Long-time residents say predictable things -- autos were more convenient and faster than streetcars. Short of doing your thesis on this, it will be hard to separate the truth from the legend on this story. (Not a public transit hater.) ------ ianb How do private companies arrange infrastructure-sized projects? Oil companies seem to have substantial arrangements like these. Railroads maintain a lot of infrastructure privately. I'm guessing these companies don't get gouged like the government, but they really have all the same issues, like internal corruption, the bid process, change orders, competing interests in the company, etc. ------ mleonhard "The California High-Speed Rail Authority’s new CEO, Jeff Morales, arrived at the agency after a stint as senior vice present at Parsons Brinckerhoff." This is how corruption works here in USA. Cheaters move between government management positions and overpaid contractor positions. This happens all throughout the country, from local governments up to the vice president. ------ ericdykstra Whoa wait, this article is saying that [some significant subsection] of government projects is something like an order of magnitude inefficient? Hard to believe, I bet next we'll see articles saying that [some other significant subsection of government] is inefficient, too! ------ aswanson What's even worse is that they overcharge on the same properties they gouge taxpayers on, that the taxpayer supposedly _owns_. Crossing the GW bridge? $12. Going up the turnpike from DE to NY? $13. Going from Jersey to Philly? $5. ------ devs1010 I spend probably $350 a month commuting in the SF Bay Area on public transit, its ridiculous but its my only option since traffic is bad and parking expensive enough to make public transit the better option by far ------ xbryanx Seems like some of the comparisons being made here should be divided by average wage for skilled workers on these projects. ------ leeoniya havent read it yet, too in love with appropriate mobius rail graphic ------ SODaniel This I believe is NOT news. ------ 001sky Hollywood. Accounting. ~~~ 001sky _A huge part of the problem is that agencies can’t keep their private contractors in check. Starved of funds and expertise for in-house planning, officials contract out the project management and early design concepts to private companies that have little incentive to keep costs down and quality up._ \--Citation from the article. ------ michaelochurch Misleading title (in the current political environment) because the gouging is done by contractors who've figured out how to exploit an antiquated (lowest- bidder wins) system. The article is not suggesting that we have "too much" mass transit, but that we pay too much for what we get, and this is undeniably true. The gouging doesn't stop once the infrastructure is built. U.S. transit is also expensive when delivered (it costs over $100 per person round-trip to go from New York to Harrisburg, PA; for two people, it's cheaper to _drive_ ). Finally, we pay again through exorbitant real estate prices _because_ our transport infrastructure, in this country, is so poor. ~~~ Anechoic _the gouging is done by contractors who've figured out how to exploit an antiquated (lowest-bidder wins) system._ As someone who works on transportation projects, I find this to be incredibly unfair. Yes, there are a few shady contractors out there, but there are a lot of things that can happen during design and construction that can increase costs through no fault of our own. For example: change orders. A project gets designed and approved, the contractor gets his contract and starts digging. Two weeks into excavation, the project engineer tells the contractor "oh, that tunnel needs to be built 20 feet deeper and moved 15 feet to the south." Why? It could be for any number of reasons, maybe construction uncovered a gas line that couldn't be moved, maybe some politician wanted the line moved further (or closer) to a friend's business, etc. There are also the inevitable lawsuits, environmental issues and so on. One of my big beefs, and one of the factors that IME increases costs for architectural/engineering consultants like me are the hoops we have to jump through to demonstrate that we're not ripping off taxpayers. There are all sorts of audit requirements (including the dreaded DCAA audit), insurance requirements and so on that increase our costs and so we have pass on those costs to the taxpayers. Recently we had an issue when negotiating a contract for transit design project - my firm's is relatively new, and we don't have a revenue history with which to develop audited rates, so we intentionally set out rates low in an attempt to convince accountants that our lack of audited rates wouldn't be a problem. We spent a munch arguing with the prime's accountants who wanted our audited rates to we could demonstrate that our profit on the job wouldn't exceed 10% (they were _obsessed_ with the 10% profit number), depsite the fact that our rates were 40-50% lower than other similar contractors. We had to get someone from the Federal government to step in and tell the prime that our rates were fine as-is. Insurance requirements are the other big issue. General liability isn't so bad, but E&O can be costly for big engineering projects, even if you're exposure is low. However many projects have a "one size fits all" with respect to insurance requirements and require everyone to carry $10+ million in general liability and $5+ million in E&O. If you're the general contractor responsible for digging up streets which can have all sorts or negative effects, that's probably reasonable. If you're the graphic designer responsible for creating the signs for the project, that's probably a little excessive. ~~~ deveac You cite change orders in your defense: _> For example: change orders. A project gets designed and approved, the contractor gets his contract and starts digging. Two weeks into excavation, the project engineer tells the contractor "oh, that tunnel needs to be built 20 feet deeper and moved 15 feet to the south." _ But I think it's worth pointing out that change orders are probably THE primary mechanism of gouging used by contractors in 'lowest-bid-wins' scenarios, as you should know. What often happens is that contractors lowball, knowing that they will make up the margin on the change orders which are not competitively bid. A well designed RFP can mitigate this somewhat by requiring menu pricing on add/deducts for the most common in-field changes, but it can't account for everything, and bidding contractors look for open ended RFPs and exploit them. There may only be a few 'shady contractors' out there as you say, but a)low- bid systems bring them to the top of the short list, and b)I'd wager almost every 'reputable' contractor's change order margins are higher than for the exact same work that was competed in a public RFP. Just my thoughts on that. Raised an eyebrow since change orders are the primary mechanism for inflating post-award margins. Edit: Also want to point out that my use of the word 'gouging' is kind of a loaded term: _> But I think it's worth pointing out that change orders are probably THE primary mechanism of gouging used by contractors in 'lowest-bid-wins' scenarios_ Are these contractors gouging? They are not doing anything illegal, but it can fall into questionably ethical territory. But from many contractor's point of view, they are stuck bidding on a system that is designed somewhat unethically. From a systems standpoint, when the only factor in winning a bid is lowest cost on the delivery of a product that will unquestionably have change orders, you get a scenario where the following is actually happening. 1)Firms provide goods and service for margin 'a+b' which is averaged over the life of the project 2)Only margin 'a' is competed 3)Margin 'b' is projected but undefined and can be adjusted by the Firm after the award based on margin 'a' Is it ethical to even ask a Firm to submit a bid based on margin 'a' set equal to margin 'b' knowing that the system is designed to produce competing bids distributing the total product margin unevenly between the two variables, weighting 'b' much more heavily and minimizing 'a' in order to win the bid and work at all? I don't think so, and what happens is you get a system that is almost explicitly designed to inject increased total project costs and increased variability. I think that under this system, it's an incredibly gray area on the how ethical increased post-award margins on change orders are. Just the fact that an increase occurs does not strike me as unethical, but there is absolutely zero doubt that some of the margin increases are absolutely unethical and drive the total product margin up well past what it would have been if bid under a possibly more efficient system (throw out high and low bids for example). If gouging is going to happen, it's going to happen on a change order, but it's not so black and white. ~~~ Anechoic _Raised an eyebrow since change orders are the primary mechanism for inflating post-award margins._ This comes down to how well the contract is written. The Big Dig was getting screwed pretty early on by contractors doing exactly what you described, but learned from the experience and started tightening up those contract terms. As a result, some contractors continued to try to play that game, and when they couldn't make up for lowball bids using change orders, they went out of business. Other contractors learned their lesson and started pricing things more realistically. ~~~ btilly And there you fall into one of the traps. Contracts that are long because they explicitly protect against every way that the agency has been screwed in the past. It would be _much_ more effective to have the response to being screwed be, "We have the option of saying you are not allowed to submit bids on public projects in the future." Then you don't have to legislate every last detail of when that happens. This is what happens in the private sector. I do not have to do business with you if I don't want to, and I don't want to do business with you if you've screwed me in the past. If you're not planning on screwing me, this is not a problem. If you are, it is only a problem for me..once. And a problem for you going forward. ~~~ yourapostasy > _This is what happens in the private sector. I do not have to do business > with you if I don't want to, and I don't want to do business with you if > you've screwed me in the past._ That goes in both directions in the IT services world. I run into plenty of procurement departments that are _far_ less ethical than many contractors I've worked with. I have caught procurement officers flat out lying to me on what they have as competitive offers, playing incredibly puerile alpha dominance games, pulling bait and switch by tacking on a new deliverable as an afterthought in an email without prior discussion after a verbal agreement at the end of exhaustive negotiations, acting rude and imperious as if that was their sole strategy to browbeat me instead of negotiating like a professional business person...the list of eye-popping, unprofessional behavior would have been unbelievable to me when I started in business. These customers go onto our blacklist that we graciously introduce to our less-capable competitors. ~~~ deveac _> These customers go onto our blacklist that we graciously introduce to our less-capable competitors._ Why not keep them? Doesn't sound like anything that can't be addressed. Insert language defining scope as only in contract with verbal, email, and other communications besides formal change orders not binding. Rude? Imperious? Browbeating? Fine with me. As long as I can lock you down on paper I'm fine with it. You can corral most customers like that and shrug of the distasteful personalities...as long as they are paying their bills. That's the deal breaker right there. Even lying on what they have for competitive offers. It doesn't matter what they say as long as you know your margins and make your decisions based on that. Psychologically it can be painful to know that you took money off the table for what turned out to be non-existent competition, but it won't bite you as long as you are negotiating with a solid grasp of your costs and profit potential. This type of behavior is so standard that it doesn't even bother me. Really, they wouldn't be doing their job if they didn't do this in a lot of cases from one point of view. If you suspect your customer is lying about competing bids and you feel your margins are dipping close to below acceptable levels, try a large increase in margins on a smaller sized order or project to test the waters every once in a while. It really gives good feedback that you can use to make decisions when confronted by that behavior in the future. I have a couple clients who like clockwork, ALWAYS try and talk the price of a quote down after submission. I look at my margins and decide if I'm willing to do it based on that alone, but every once in a while when we're really busy and I get a quote request from them for a medium or small sized job, I will increase the margin to 20% past my ideal rate to see if they bite. They usually do. So now when they try and talk me down on a larger project I just 'see if my distributor can move at all on the pricing'. Turns out he can't. Sorry. I tried. Most of those games are rare though. Our firm is often subcontracted out, and I openly discuss my margins and those of my customer that is requesting a quote. Being open, honest, and transparent really goes a long way. I'll often send a quote along and follow up with a phone call that goes something like this: "Hey xxxx, I just sent that number in. Take a look at it. I've got about 20 points on it, -how much were you planning on marking my number up, -is that going to leave you enough margin?" 9 times out of 10 they say yeah, and appreciate me asking if they are set on their margin. When they ask for a price reduction, it's usually with the sense that we're both in it together, and they aren't looking at me as an adversary, and they are more honest about what number from me is the HIGHEST they are comfortable with. That information is golden, because I am usually bidding against other firms (at least to start). I've had many contractors stop competing my bids just because of this type of communication (as well as the execution of our firm as well). ~~~ yourapostasy > Our firm is often subcontracted out... This might be the difference between our experiences and responses. Most of my work is direct, corp-to-corp, B2B. We're steadily climbing up the value chain each year, and find that we have to directly interact with procurement departments more often. For me, it is not a matter of what we can negotiate and lock them into terms we can live with; I've done that before, but fortunately now we aren't in the cash position to _have to_ do that. It really comes down to the unavoidable reality that these customers' procurement methods cost us a ton of sales time that we could more profitably spend elsewhere on customers that more appreciate our value props. As for transparency on margins and per hour rates, we avoid that because we price on business value: if your business benefits by $X+N from spending $X with me, we both win. I've concluded from experience that sharing this information simply opens you up for piecemeal negotiation and commoditization in the future, which doesn't currently fit into my company's business model, but certainly YMMV. ------ angdis A bunch of right-wing baloney. The transportation systems in NYC are what make that city even possible. It is very easy for an uncreative bean-counter to look at the price tag of public transportation systems and then not be able "add up" all the long term benefits of having a city where people and businesses can thrive and get around and that are enjoyable and aesthetic. If you really want to talk about "gouging" the taxpayer, instead look at highway funding and regulations that practically enforce sprawl by requiring parking spaces, and multi-lane streets through urban cores. ~~~ notJim It doesn't sound like you read the article. The article doesn't say the US shouldn't spend money on transit (the point you refuted), it says that other countries pay less for transit because they mange projects better.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Ask HN: Who's happy where they are and doesn't want to be hired? - browsergap And what's so great about your current situation?<p>Would be nice change to the sea of desperateness ====== trash981828 Im a researcher in a basic science. My institution is small but high impact. I’m leading one of the most exciting new capabilities in the history of this already exciting field. I guess the key for me is that I admire and like my colleagues and this highly technical work is in resonance with my personality. ~~~ browsergap Cool. Are you by any chance in materials science? Or oceanography? ------ caryd What does this mean? Happy jobless people? ~~~ browsergap I didn't think of it that way, but sure! I was thinking more...who is happy in whatever they are currently doing: current "role", self-employed, indie maker, side project, research, parent, carer. I guess the most obvious focus to me was "current full time regular paid employment", but I didn't want to limit it, so thanks for your suggestion! I think it would be cool to hear stuff like, "I'm taking care of my son, who's six and home-schooled. We live in remote Alaska and my partner works in oil and gas, that's how we met. We used to alternate fly in fly outs, but now we've decided to do longer stints taking care of our first child. I'm loving seeing how he views the world, and the home life I make with him."	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Street Fighter II's AI Engine - FroshKiller https://sf2platinum.wordpress.com/2017/01/20/the-ai-engine/ ====== billmalarky "When reacting to an attack the scripts are chosen based on something called a yoke. Each frame of animation for both avatars and projectiles contains a value for the yoke in the metadata, which the AI peeks at to select a script suitable for responding to that attack. The computer sees the yoke of your move as soon as you have input it, before the first animation frame has even displayed. As such it gets one more frame of advantage on top of your reaction time." I KNEW IT! ------ indspenceable > These days, when most people talk about AI they’re talking about machine > learning. There’s not any of that in SF2. Actually, AI for games is pretty much never equivalent to AI for non-games. The end goal is different - games want to provide a non-optimal set of instructions, so that it's challenging but not impossible to win. The goals are entirely different. If you're making a game, this is probably at least a useful example to look at, even if I don't agree with some of the decisions they made (uninterruptible moves, for instance) ~~~ echan00 Completely agree. Games are typically only "fun" when you feel challenged. Most people do not find "fun" in losing. ~~~ Houshalter The thing is most simple game AI isn't challenging. Or it's challenging in boring ways. Like having 100% perfect aim or long health bars. It's awesome to have an AI that is challenging by actually being good at the game. Having some actual strategy and intelligence. It's a complete misconception that "real AI" needs to be super hard. Give it realistic constraints like slow reaction times or noisy input. You can handicap it in many ways to control the difficulty. Modern chess engines can easily beat even the best players in the world. But by limiting the number of moves they search, you can set one up that new players can beat. My favorite game AI is from age of empires 2. All other RTSes just let the AI cheat like crazy to provide challenge. For AoE2 they went to a lot of work to design an expert system and a custom scripting language for it. Tons of features were implemented to make it easy to write relatively sophisticated AI strategies. And they documented it well and made it easy for modders to write even better AI scripts. As a result the AI on hardest can beat all but skilled competitive players without cheating at all (at least the current AI shipped with the steam version.) It's actually fun to play against and isn't a terrible substitute for a real human player. ~~~ krasi0 Similarly to that, there exist AIs for Starcraft Broodwar that are capable of providing a decent challenge to novice and intermediate level human players. You could check some examples at play on: [http://sscaitournament.com/](http://sscaitournament.com/) and also develop your own AI in one of the more popular programming languages (C++, Java, etc). Disclaimer: I am the author of one of those Starcraft Broodwar AIs ------ RealNeatoDude It's funny how much SF slang hints at you and your opponent being lackluster AI scripts: \- Downloaded: when you've identified your opponents patterns and know what they're going to do next. Ex. they always jump after they jab. \- Conditioning: when you've trained your opponent to react the same way consistently to something you do. Ex. they always jump when you throw a fireball because you've let them do it successfully. \- "time to guess": situations where, if executed correctly, your opponent must choose one defense from many defenses randomly. Ex. your jump trajectory is such that whether you end up on the left or right side of your opponent is determined by a pixel. A phrase that novice players say a lot is "HOW DID HE KNOW?" because they're in shock that their opponent is "guessing" right every time when really their opponent just knows what the novice is going to do in every situation. What's impressive is that "every situation" is really the more skilled player abstracting over similar situations. Ex. they recognize kick->jump = punch->jump for their particular opponent. I don't think an AI will be able to make complicated abstractions like that on an offline game console for a while. ~~~ vvanders Yeah, Sirlin covers that really well in his Layers of Yomi on Playing to Win: [http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/7-spies-of-the- mind](http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/7-spies-of-the-mind) ------ ivan_ah I wonder if knowing the different strategies would make pro-humans better at playing the game. I feel like they might already have internalized the different strategies the computer uses, but still pretty surprising to see how simple the source code is. Also cool to think about would be AI-vs-AI street fighter competitions. Or SF AI that learns from live matches currently being played online. ~~~ unkoman > AI-vs-AI street fighter competitions [http://www.saltybet.com/](http://www.saltybet.com/) does just that. ~~~ ivan_ah nice... somewhat glitchy, but still pretty good. I doubt there is reinforcement learning going on though, I think the AIs of the mugen characters are hard coded. ------ redm > Anyone looking for some insight into how to write an AI engine for a game > today will be disappointed. And yet, it was really effective and fun. This is like a magician revealing how a trick was done, it's always a "letdown". ~~~ EGreg Well you are in luck because in a major sense, deep learning AI cannot reveal how the trick was done unless you are willing to speak in terms of a model with trillions of variables and feedback loops. ------ CocaKoala "Charge moves such as blade kicks are simply executed as instructions, so they cannot fail. Guile can do a bladekick from a standing position simply because that’s what’s in the script." That's a pretty big cheat, to be honest. ~~~ ben174 Welcome to the frustrations of my childhood. I sort of neat trick is during a dump you can be holding down to charge your "blade kick"* and immediately when you hit the ground, press up and kick to execute the move, and it gives the appearance of one of performing the move without charging. Sometimes gets a surprised look by your opponent. * we called it a flash kick, but whatever. ------ kensai I wonder if one can create an invincible AI for Street Fighter II. One that obviously makes the right choice always and can counter every possible human attack. (kind of think that it was also possible even back in the 90s, but never implemented; what would have been the point?) ~~~ kstenerud Mortal Kombat II effectively did this with really shitty AI. If you jumped towards an opponent, they would jump straight up and hit you with a projectile with perfect accuracy. Every time. It was impossible to throw a computer opponent because the AI had better timing then you. Every time. In fact, the only way to beat the computer opponent was to take advantage of weaknesses in the AI script, the biggest one of which is jumping backwards when there's a specific distance between you. The computer would jump towards you, leaving them open to you jumping forwards with a kick. Every time. Just don't get caught in the corner. ~~~ jordigh There's a "bug" in the MK2 script I've never quite understood nor seen explained. Sometimes when jumping at the computer from a certain distance (and perhaps certain difficulty level) it will move back and will keep moving back trying to separate itself from you as long as you press no button. You can walk it into the edge and will stay there, forever trying to move back. Then you could move back yourself, wait a second, and it would throw a projectile, letting you jump in over the projectile for a corner combo. Yeah, the MK2 AI isn't much fun. It's designed to eat quarters, not to provide a fair fight. :-/ ------ radarsat1 That's pretty fun, thanks for sharing ;) Actually with a machine learning approach it's not immediately obvious to me how to incorporate it. I suppose an RNN or reinforcement learning could be used, in principle, to learn good reactions to a given sequence from the opponent, but it would take so many failures to train it, which would have to be generated more or less manually. I don't see how it could be done easily, and certainly not in an "online" way without delivering a pretty terrible play experience. Are there any good examples of computer-controlled players using an online (or offline) machine learning-based approach to player control, that doesn't suffer from these problems? The image that comes to mind for me is a computer player that gets better and better at beating you, but the problem is that with reinforcement learning there is no guarantee that this happens reliably and in an amount of time and gradient that would provide a good playing experience -- and then you'd be faced with the problem of it getting "too good", equally not a particularly good play experience. Perhaps something in between? A machine learning approach that helps select and maybe parameterize these "scripts"? ~~~ NikolaeVarius They're fighting games. Why do we need to incorporate machine learning at all? If the computer wanted to they could always play perfectly because it could react to any input perfectly. ~~~ viewer5 'learning to fight against you, sort of like a human would' is a lot more fun than 'literally cheating and perfectly countering you' ~~~ eyko Since humans are not infallible, let's leave it at 'learning to fight against you, sort of like a superhuman would'. It would make for a formidable opponent since you can still defeat it (with a good dose of luck). ~~~ wmil If you forced the AI to work with a substantial input lag, it could be quite complex yet still possible to defeat. ------ c0achmcguirk I'm going to find Vega's script and replace it with NOOPs. I hated playing Vega. He would climb that wall like a spider and then jump with a shrill yell and then body-slam me. I think that's the most rage I've ever experienced in my life....just repeatedly getting beat by Vega. The only thing that comes close is getting hit by the blue shell in Mario Kart. ~~~ madshiva lol, vega is easy to beat come on! There's a lot of trick in SF2, with almost every character. Thanks for the info, I'm currently building my SF2 game and was wondering how they made their AI, then much thanks for the sharing. ------ michaelbuddy Losing is not fun but _almost_ winning IS fun. Progress through refinement, strategy and speed is fun. ------ faragon Gaming AI must be "beatable". "Good" AI is not good for having fun games. ------ the_denial Why aren't there longer bytecode instructions? ~~~ sf2platinum 1\. Because it's not necessary, there are a lot of them instead, so it runs through a short script, picks another one at random, rinse, lather, repeat. 2\. Longer scripts would be recognisable and easy to beat. ------ nischay seems like it is down, 502 error [https://usafacts.org/](https://usafacts.org/) ------ snickmy AI != IF STATEMENT + RANDOM ~~~ luhn Sure it is. AI is a computer reacting to its environment to solve a problem. It doesn't necessitate machine learning, neural networks, or what-have-you. ~~~ snickmy Sorry but I don't see any intelligence in this. ~~~ Kiro It's still AI though. ~~~ snickmy I always thought that the I in AI stood for Intelligence ~~~ 0x0 AI always seems to be that elusive magical self-conscious computer algorithm, which when revealed to run on actual binary logic is claimed to be "not AI after all"	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Show HN: Purple Services – On-demand gas delivery right to your car - elwell Launched an app/service that lets you order gas for your car and it will be delivered right away. We drive to your location and fill up your car. I developed the app as an HTML5 app. Would like to know what you think. Criticism positive/negative is very welcome. Thanks!<p>Our site is: http://purpledelivery.com<p>iOS: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/purple-services/id970824802<p>Android: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.purple.app ====== Gustomaximus Really interesting and unique concept. At first I went 'why', but then thinking about it I thought 'why not'. Personally I'd consider using it. My comments/thoughts. \- I couldn't see a diesel vs. petrol option. This would be important in Europe but not sure about the US. \- How do you access my fuel? If I do this I don't want to have to come our and unlock my fuel cap. \- Is the service quiet? I can leave my car in the driveway/kerb but I don't want some roaring truck at 6am outside my house. \- Price would need to be competitive though I'd happily pay a reasonable premium -say 5-10c per litre. \- What services could you bolt on? In the same way petrol stations make their money from the in store shopping, could you compete on petrol price by using it as a loss leader type offer? E.g. Car wash, air fresher etc ~~~ elwell Thanks for your feedback/ideas. \- We currently offer 87 and 91 octane, and only in West Los Angeles (but of course we hope to expand rapidly) \- When you send a request we remind you to make sure the fueling door is unlocked. When that is done is the customer's choice. \- The service is very quiet. We don't have loud trucks. Our model is similar to Uber's in that anyone with a car can apply to work with us as a courier. They use their own car and transport fuel with 5-gallon tanks in their trunks. That might sound silly, but it seems to work well so far. \- Currently free delivery, but we intend to charge about $5 per delivery \- Yes, we have plans for additional services that can be added on. ~~~ greenyoda You might want to check whether transportation of gasoline this way for commercial purposes is legal under local, state and federal law. Transporting flammable liquids sounds like a kind of activity that would be licensed and regulated. ~~~ elwell We've done extensive research into the legality of our processes, and everything seems to be acceptable legally. If we become very successful, we will probably run into issues in the future though (e.g., Uber vs. Taxi unions). ------ drglitch In a densely populated area such as West LA there is a gas station every half mile - what is the use case for this except "oh crap, I didn't fill up and I don't have 10 min in morning to get gas". An average tank size is circa 16-18 gal - so a courier would literally do a single trip to station per car? How will you deal with gas tanks that lock with the car, ie BMW, MB, Audi? 5$/fill up works out to .30c per gallon premium over regular fillup on an average tank - which is quite high. If the service is not done by a fuel truck, but an amateur worker, what kind of insurance do you carry for when they accidentally put gasoline into my diesel car? Lastly, from logistics side, how does a human know when to stop filling the car so as not to overfill the tank? Listening for the funny 'oh shit it's about to start spluttering out of the tank!' noise? Edit: found it - check 'materials of trade' in 49CFR - you cannot transport more than about 120gal (in 8gal containers max) without a CDL or hazmat designation. The only way this can be economical is if you don't run to gas station after servicing each car? Or is there a big part of economics here that I don't see? Even buying gas at wholesale but selling at retail plus service fee, I don't see this being scalable while also paying above minimum wage to the gas mules. ~~~ elwell Thanks for your feedback. > In a densely populated area such as West LA there is a gas station every > half mile - what is the use case for this except "oh crap, I didn't fill up > and I don't have 10 min in morning to get gas". We are viewing it as an convenience / luxury service. > An average tank size is circa 16-18 gal - so a courier would literally do a > single trip to station per car? Couriers carry 6 x 5 gallon containers. > How will you deal with gas tanks that lock with the car, ie BMW, MB, Audi? When you send a request we remind you to make sure the fueling door is unlocked. When that is done is the customer's choice. > Lastly, from logistics side, how does a human know when to stop filling the > car so as not to overfill the tank? Listening for the funny 'oh shit it's > about to start spluttering out of the tank!' noise? The pump we use automatically shuts off like at the gas station. ------ byoung2 Where do you operate, and what is the cost/markup? Those are questions people want answered before they go though the trouble of installing the app, creating an account, etc. ~~~ elwell We currently only cover West Los Angeles. Until June 1st, there is no delivery fee. After that, we plan to charge about $5. There is no markup on the gas price. We fill our tanks from a "Shell" or "76" gas station and use the average price. ------ Andrewbass Reminded me of "Nosotros los Nobles"	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
The internet decides whether or not to water this plant - tylerjaywood http://www.pleasetakecareofmyplant.com ====== DrScump This page has at least 5 different analytics hits in it (Facebook Connect, Google Analytics, Google Tag Manager, MyFonts Counter, and Twitter Button).	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
The Guy from the Men's Warehouse Commercial Is Making a Comeback - jl87 http://thehustle.co/george-zimmer-got-fired-then-he-got-real-cool ====== victorhugo31337 I guarantee it!	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Show HN: An API for gender classification - heynk http://gender.hankstoever.com/ ====== sambeau The only reliable way to find out someone's gender is to ask them what gender they currently think they are. There are more than two genders and an individual's gender can change with time. A better strategy all-round would to be ask yourself whether you need to know someone's gender. I can think of very few legitimate reasons to know and record a user's gender and many of them can be dealt with by simply asking them what they'd like to be referred as, perhaps in more than one scenario. ~~~ joaomsa One use I've come across for inferring genders was tackling record depupliction across multiple data sources. In one data set we might have the gender information of an individual but have it be missing in another. Turns out gender is great to include in a blocking keys to reduce number of comparisons. Extrapolating an inferred gender in the dataset without one was incredibly helpful. ~~~ aw3c2 You are forgetting that the individual might consider the gender to be private information. Some people might want to use a different gender in different contexts. See the ESPN/Grantland suicide issue recently if you care/dare. ~~~ mseebach An individual that considers gender to be private information , and that uses different genders in different situations is very unlikely to be using a name that can be classified with a high degree of confidence as one gender. A person using the name "Jack" is unlikely to be assumed to be a woman, even if that person selected "female" from a drop down somewhere. If the same person uses Jack/M and Cindy/F in different contexts, no fuzzy algorithm is going to resolve them as the same person (bar some other, stronger ID, such as a SSN). EDIT: I initially used "William" as an example. Ironically, it turns out that name is only 57.6% male. Both Jack and Cindy are 90% male/female. ~~~ drakeandrews At least in the UK, Jack is a fairly common shortening of Jacqueline. The only way of determining a users gender is asking them directly, and if a person wishes to enter different values into different systems, all the more power to them. ------ onion2k While it's a quite interesting coding task to write a classifier, for the overwhelming majority of applications you simply don't need to know a user's gender. Making it a public API is a bad thing. Developers have a horrible tendency to gather as much data on someone as possible, everything they're willing to give in fact, for the simple reason of "just in case we need it later". It's far, _far_ better to gather as little as possible and build something that simply doesn't need to know specifics. If we build things that are ambiguous, unspecific for age, gender, race, nationality, etc then the world will be a better and more inclusive place. Paradoxical as it seems, more privacy actually leads to a more integrated society. That is universally a good thing (in my opinion, obv.). ------ splitbrain Without a location parameter this is pretty useless. Andrea for example is a male name in Spain and Italy as far as I know. Also this: [http://www.cscyphers.com/blog/2012/06/28/falsehoods- programm...](http://www.cscyphers.com/blog/2012/06/28/falsehoods-programmers- believe-about-gender/) ~~~ terabytest I'm Italian, my name is Gabriele and it classifies it as female. That's wrong. In Italy, Gabriele is a male name. I agree that this is useless without location information. ------ joshfraser I started searching for the most gender ambiguous names I could think of like "Jesse", "Alex", "Erin", etc. The best one I've found so far is "Angel" at 51.1% male. ~~~ cclogg This is pretty fun lol. I searched for Santa and it said 99% female haha. ~~~ Renaud Apparently god is overwhelmingly male at 99.998179% ------ sheraz I think it is important to make a distinction between gender and sex [1]. The link below is a makes a pretty good distinction between the two. "Sex" refers to the biological and physiological characteristics that define men and women. "Gender" refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviours, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for men and women. [1]- [http://www.who.int/gender/whatisgender/en/](http://www.who.int/gender/whatisgender/en/) ~~~ Renaud And even sex[1] is sometimes not as binary as we make it to be. [1]:[http://www.chw.org/display/PPF/DocID/22620/Nav/1/router.asp](http://www.chw.org/display/PPF/DocID/22620/Nav/1/router.asp) ------ hnriot why bother with a naive bayes classifier, why not just use the dictionary, when it matches the percentage is simple the ratio of the genders? I don't see the need for a classifier, I was hoping it was going to do something clever like guess the gender of a document's author. ------ bwp Microsoft is unknown, Linux is male, and Apple is female. ~~~ blueskin_ BSD is unknown. ------ levlandau Neat. Should probably call out that it's an API for "gender classification of english names". Did you build this mostly for learning/personal purposes? ------ sdegutis "Permelia"[1] is definitely a girl's name[2]. [1]: [http://blog.xkcd.com/2014/01/31/the-baby-name- wizard/](http://blog.xkcd.com/2014/01/31/the-baby-name-wizard/) [2]: [http://gender.hankstoever.com/classify/Permelia](http://gender.hankstoever.com/classify/Permelia) ------ nl I spend a lot of time choosing gender neutral names for story based scenarios in proposals (the joys of corporate work). [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unisex_name](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unisex_name) has been mentioned elsewhere, but I've found it pretty useful. Unlike a lot of people here, I don't think there is anything wrong with an API like this. It's true that it isn't culturally neutral, but there are times when any piece of information is useful. ------ jpsim if probability == "59.369936" { probability = "?" gender = "unknown" } ------ mastersk3 This is great fun, could you embed share options? I could trigger a share-war amongst my friends! ------ robinjfisher My name has a 50.444139% chance of being female. In the present case, the API is, unfortunately, incorrect. ~~~ Dewie My name has 99.99...% chance of being male. But when I change it to the English/Anglophone version, the chance is only 60.641%. ------ bnegreve What's the training set? ------ karanbhangui Apparently Karan is female :( ------ blueskin_ I get ~70% for a name I've never even heard of being used for a female. ------ abe238 Bah I much rather use this app as it's much faster: [http://apps.microsoft.com/windows/app/gndr/a062944e-744e-495...](http://apps.microsoft.com/windows/app/gndr/a062944e-744e-4955-b685-f3197faa2560) ------ ozh Fun, although you might want to state it applies to the US only ~~~ abe238 I'm not even sure of that. I have seen much better results from US Census data with very different %'s of prob e.g. [http://apps.microsoft.com/windows/app/gndr/a062944e-744e-495...](http://apps.microsoft.com/windows/app/gndr/a062944e-744e-4955-b685-f3197faa2560) ------ shobhitjain26 my Name is unknown . [http://gender.hankstoever.com/classify/shobhit](http://gender.hankstoever.com/classify/shobhit) ------ kirchhoff John - 57.3% ? ~~~ ddeck Definitely some odd results: Michael = 52%, Thomas = 62% (although Tom = 98%) ~~~ markcampbell Thomassina is a woman's name, FWIW. ~~~ yen223 Thom is 99.999963% male though.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
USDA is down - intelliot http://www.usda.gov/ ====== SolarNet I realize that people are a little annoyed at this tact, and think it is melodramatic. But consider: * The servers may be hosted on a cloud system, and there is now no way to pay for them. (Even if the bill is due in 4 days, the employees can't do the work 4 days from now, they have to do it now.) * Some of the information may be time sensitive, and the submission of forums may rely on employee feedback. These services may not be easy enough to remove in the time they have available to shut-down. * Even if hosted in house, if the systems break, or are hacked into, then nothing can be done fix them. Better to deploy a hardened static page now than be infected with malware running massive botnets when they get back. * They may have to turn off the utilities to their server farm, so they can't support anything but a simple static page. * They have 4 hours to do all that, fill out some paperwork, and still make a backup, and whatever other responsibilities they have (like internal servers). The USDA in specific also handles dynamic data from across the country, so more than some, they have worries about being hacked and having their data screwed with. ~~~ smsm42 I'm not sure I understand. Let's say there's a need to have people be on call for the site 24/7 - for many sites it's not the case but let's assume they need it. But these people don't need to be paid hourly. They most probably get salary at the end of the payroll period (monthly or bi-weekly) as everybody else. And even if shutdown would continue that long, they'd just get paid at the next pay period. Now, it may be possible that some people would say "we won't work if we don't know we'd be paid in time" \- but they don't know that either way, and their salary probably is not contingent on specific work. Same with cloud hosting and any other expense - I have hard time believing it is billed hourly. Most probably it is billed monthly - and by the time this months' bill arrives shutdown would be long over. And even if it isn't, I've worked in the past with govt organizations, and not all of them always were the most accurate payers - but I rarely seen any contractor refusing govt job because of that. Everybody knows eventually it will be paid. So I don't see the reason for the drama. It's not like US government suddenly has no money at all. It's a temporary technical issue with administering cash flows, and everybody knows it is temporary and everybody knows the bills will eventually be paid. ~~~ ewoodrich > It's not like US government suddenly has no money at all. It's a temporary > technical issue with administering cash flows, and everybody knows it is > temporary and everybody knows the bills will eventually be paid. Sure, it may be temporary. But the most recent federal government shutdown (in '96) lasted 21 days. Which is certainly enough time for issues/vulnerabilities to appear. It's unlikely this one will last as long, but regardless, I don't find it beyond reason that an IT team being furloughed could determine that allowing an un-maintained, un-monitored, site to remain publicly accessible could pose a security risk, or provide out-of-date information that otherwise appears to be authoritative. ~~~ smsm42 What you mean "may be"? Do you seriously entertain a possibility that US government as of today has ceased to exist and US government bills will never be paid? You must have misunderstood what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that there's absolutely no need to wait for 21 days for issues to appear, because the same people may do the same maintenance as always and there's absolutely no need to leave the site un-maintained. Of course, staff can be reduced - no new developments, no updates, no proofreaders, no marketing, no answering emails, etc. - to avoid taking too much un-budgeted obligations. But no one doubts there obligations will be repaid, so I don't see the issue here. >>> provide out-of-date information that otherwise appears to be authoritative. This is easily solved by putting one line on top of the page that says "All information is as available by 10.01.2013 and can be out of date". I admit, it's much less drama, but it's possible. ~~~ SolarNet Besides the fact that it is illegal ([http://www.bsnlawfirm.com/newsletter/OP0413_Natter.pdf](http://www.bsnlawfirm.com/newsletter/OP0413_Natter.pdf)) employees are NOT guaranteed to get their money. In the past congress has sometimes not provided backpay. Also, if the website gets hacked, without sys-admins to fix it, the server's data could be corrupted or stolen, backdoors installed, ect. ------ bparsons What the USDA is doing is called "Washington Monument Syndrome". It is a political tactic, wherein you deny the public access to the most visible aspects of a government operation during a period of budget cuts. You will notice all government agencies ceasing stuff like twitter accounts, which cost virtually nothing to operate. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Monument_Syndrome](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Monument_Syndrome) ~~~ darkarmani > What the USDA is doing is called "Washington Monument Syndrome". Where will all the school kids visit if the USDA website is down? What about all of the international tourists that finally made the trip to the USDA website? You make a completely valid comparison, because everyone knows that after the Washington Monument, the USDA is the most beloved site. ------ throwaway9848 Actual information on the effects of the shutdown on the USDA, for those interested in that sort of thing: [http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/09/30/usa-fiscal- agricul...](http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/09/30/usa-fiscal-agriculture- idUSL1N0HQ1W420130930) ~~~ aethr Now that is very interesting. According to this article, earlier this year meat and poultry inspectors were designated 'essential personnel', meaning that they can continue to work even during a government shutdown. This is important because it's against the law to sell meat in the US if it hasn't been inspected by a USDA inspector. Imagine the outcry if this government shutdown meant that all meat and poultry sales in the US halted until an agreement was reached. ~~~ Tzunamitom I'd be one happy vegetarian! ~~~ easytiger Would you? Economic forces would drive up the cost of your fodder. ~~~ Tzunamitom In the short-term perhaps, but if it lasted a while the reverse would be true as the market would be flooded with excess fodder production that would drive down the price of my fodder (Amount of grain needed to end extreme hunger - 40 million tonnes. Amount of grain fed to animals in the West - 540 million tonnes. United Nations) ------ fpgeek Ironically, you can't straightforwardly get to the USDA contingency plans. The whitehouse.gov link on the page points to an index of all the contingency plans (across the federal government). Unfortunately, the entries for the USDA plans are just links pointing back to usda.gov... I'd imagine you might get somewhere at archive.org (and there may well be other ways to get them from a .gov source), but still... ------ Steuard Is this purely symbolic, or is there some real sense in which replacing the USDA website with a placeholder saves the government a measurable amount of money? ~~~ nwh Symbolic really. The same servers are sitting there, just idle rather than pumping out pages. ~~~ bsdetector If they have legal requirements like a report of contamination or unsafe conditions is investigated within N days after being received their only option may be to not accept the report at all. Unless everybody involved in the whole process is an essential worker. ~~~ palidanx Reports of contamination would most likely go through the FDA for announcements. ------ robomartin I fully expect Obama and Democrats to use every available tactic to make this as painful as possible for the population. They truly need to have the US wake-up to an apocalyptic scenario. Anything less than that and people are going to see that the emperor has no clothes. If they could have airplanes falling out of the sky, they would. If they truly use such tactics I really hope people take them to task for it. With nearly four million people working for the federal government --a good deal of them solidly in the Democrat camp-- I fully expect them to terrorize us by fucking things up to the extent of their abilities. As for the argument of cloud servers and other services in the private sector causing shutdowns, the question is very simple: Anyone thinking that the US isn't going to pay for these services is a moron. This shutdown will last as long as it does and then everyone will get their checks. Anything to the contrary is pure theater. I just got an email from whitehouse.gov full of FUD. It's a disgrace that whitehouse.gov is being used this way (this isn't the first time). Democrats would raise hell if Republicans were in power and used whitehouse.gov for partisan propaganda. What a shame. Tomorrow is likely to be the US politics version of Kabuki Theater. Could be fun to watch. ------ abalone It's likely this is more than political. There's a lot of work they'd need to do to disable just the parts of the site that would cease to function without backend staff, or place appropriate disclaimers on out-of-date information, which drives literally billions of dollars in economic activity. Four hours isn't enough time for that. ~~~ ewoodrich A shutdown risk appears every three or so months due to reliance on short term continuing resolutions to fund the government. Most recently, formal preparations began several weeks ago. [http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/omb/memoranda/...](http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/omb/memoranda/2013/m-13-22.pdf) ~~~ javert Yep. This situation is something that can easily be prepared for. This is probably either mismanagement or political posturing. (I'd bet the latter.) ------ briandear The healthcare.gov site certainly works. This whole thing is nothing more than two fat guys arguing over the last piece of sausage. It's theater. From my perch in Avignon, France it's actually pretty entertaining. Watching Sheila Jackson Lee's caps-lock shouting 'speech' and wondering if the speaker of the House is going to start crying is good fun. ------ lukeman Somehow Heaven's Gate still manages to keep its site going fifteen years after its members committed suicide. ~~~ _delirium There are some advantages to having a purely static-HTML website, in terms of unattended maintainability. In addition to the government, it seems many companies don't have one anymore. If servers get compromised, it's common for companies to just take the whole site down pending a fix, and replace it with a single HTML splash page. If they had a full-featured static-HTML version of the site, they could fail over to something more complete than one HTML page, but that seems uncommon. ------ Shank This is a little confusing. The USDA's website is presumably hosted on some server, so what exactly is preventing it from remaining online? I mean, the domain is clearly still here, and there's a web page serving that error, so... ~~~ rob05c Just speculating, but perhaps the IT person(s) responsible for maintaining the site are nonessential, and considered a simple placeholder safer than leaving the full site online and unattended? ~~~ SolarNet That IT person has 4 hours to shut-down the agency internet presence for an indeterminate amount of time. Also, their server farm may not have power in 4 days, better to set up a simple website on some "essential" box somewhere. Especially since the USDA receives information from across the country and performs statistical analysis. It would be safer to shutdown the dynamic services rather than let it get hacked. In 4 hours they probably do not have enough time to separate dynamic and static information when they also have to do a backup and a bunch of paperwork. ------ ferdo nsa.gov is still up, so they do have some priorities. ~~~ CamperBob2 They're down now, although it almost seems more like a DDoS ("Taking too long to respond"). ~~~ dibarra It actually looks like they withdrew their A records. anl.gov is having the same issue (Though strangely enough, not mirror.anl.gov, so thankfully my systems can still update.) ------ LAMike PR stunt or massive budget decreases in government services? Either way it's not a good place to be in as a country. ~~~ scarmig My guess is more the former than the latter. Then again, federal spending can be pretty funky in how Congress requires it be spent. I'd love to see all the information on how the decision to shut down the site was made. ~~~ SolarNet Well if they have a server farm or cloud server on which the website is hosted it likely needs power and bandwidth (or money for a cloud service). Either they disappear completely or put up a static page. ------ rob05c Does anyone know who designates essential personnel? (5 mins of Google didn't return an answer) Could the President designate all federal employees as "essential," to circumvent the budget requirement? (Yes, this would be a power grab by the Executive branch) ------ eps Just got en email from a client who is with the Dept. of Agriculture and he said "it looks like the government is shutting down on Tuesday" and for the life of me I just couldn't understand what that was referring to. ------ ck2 Yeah who needs that pesky regulation of food quality anyway. Now if gun permits were suspended, it would get an exemption almost immediately. ~~~ anonymoushn Your gun permit is in the bill of rights. Why do you need a web site for that? ~~~ ck2 So is your right to vote - why do we need voter registration? ~~~ CamperBob2 Where? ~~~ ck2 14th, 15th, 19th, 23rd, 24th, 26th amendments? Took them awhile to get it spelled out. But it also took them 100 years to end slavery. One might also suggest the freedom from searches and seizures is also fairly clear. Be sure to tell that the TSA agent that is groping your genitals. Oh and the TSA is still fully funded. ~~~ fsck--off The Constitution does not explicitly give you the right to vote in the same way that it gives you the right to free speech. Wikipedia has this to say about it: "The "right to vote" is not explicitly stated in the U.S. Constitution except in the above referenced amendments, and only in reference to the fact that the franchise cannot be denied or abridged based solely on the aforementioned qualifications. In other words, the "right to vote" is perhaps better understood, in layman's terms, as only prohibiting certain forms of legal discrimination in establishing qualifications for suffrage. States may deny the "right to vote" for other reasons." [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_rights_in_the_United_St...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_rights_in_the_United_States) ------ ForFreedom What has a funding got to do with a website being up, the servers are still running. ------ ck2 tsa.gov is still fully operational [http://www.tsa.gov/](http://www.tsa.gov/) ~~~ SolarNet Well that's basically just a static blog site anyway. The USDA site had dynamic information, statistics, graphs. The IT infrastructure for USDA is probably much more complicated than the TSA. ------ nodata If it's down, don't link to it. ------ josh2600 NSA.gov is down. [http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.com/nsa.gov](http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.com/nsa.gov) ~~~ est [http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.com/www.nsa.gov](http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.com/www.nsa.gov) ~~~ 001sky <spoiler alert> It's just you. [http://www.nsa.gov](http://www.nsa.gov) is up. ------ na85 Wow, such melodrama. ------ freework How cute. ------ Daniel_Newby A pandering PR stunt by an overgrown bureaucracy. (The USDA is the home of the rabbit inspectors, bravely protecting our children from risky pet bunnies.) ~~~ olefoo So the USDA is largely responsible for our having some of the safest food on the planet. I mean you can mock it all you want, but if USDA meat inspectors aren't there to watch over the production; you might want to consider becoming a lot more vegetarian for a while. I mean, unless you really like eating cows infected with MRSA or Mutton with a side of scrapie... Seriously, if meat inspection goes by the wayside for any length of time; people will die, because it won't be anybody's job to make sure the meat is safe and the folks who run meat-packing plants don't like that they can't wring every last bit of profit out of every animal they buy. ~~~ markost Can I get a citation for any of this? It was my understanding that the USDA allows cattle to be fed "cage lining" which is chicken feathers, poop and feed taken from the bottom of chicken cages. The chicken feed, in turn, contains cattle meat and trimmings, thus making your "side of scrapie" scenario a small but significant possibility. In other words, what makes you think the USDA is not beholden to the commercial interests that it regulates, like every other government agency? ~~~ olefoo [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foodborne_illness#Epidemiology](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foodborne_illness#Epidemiology) Look at the difference in Salmonella rates between the US and France for instance. And yes, regulatory capture is an issue with the FDA, that has periodically resulted in scandals; but the meatpacking industry knows that without some obvious checks on their hygiene their industry as a whole is worse off. If one plant cuts too many corners and starts shipping moldy meat, the entire industries sales suffer; so it's in the meat companies interest to have someone policing defectors from good practices. ------ droopybuns Oh emm gee. what will we do without google cache?	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
A Treatment for Heroin Addiction - maxerickson http://projects.huffingtonpost.com/dying-to-be-free-heroin-treatment ====== maxerickson A couple more articles about suboxone. First, a doctor speaking about making medical therapy more available: [http://www.hazeldenbettyford.org/articles/16jan/greenagel- su...](http://www.hazeldenbettyford.org/articles/16jan/greenagel-suboxone) A writer who became addicted to suboxone without having used other opiods: [https://www.thefix.com/content/suboxone-addict-you-never- kne...](https://www.thefix.com/content/suboxone-addict-you-never-knew-existed) And an article that discusses prescriptions being diverted to street use: [http://www.villagevoice.com/news/is-suboxone-a-wonder- drug-t...](http://www.villagevoice.com/news/is-suboxone-a-wonder-drug-that- helps-heroin-addicts-get-clean-or-just-another-way-to-stay-high-6439885)	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
3 MORE ways to come up with Startup / Product ideas - fast - emoray13 http://quicklytest.it/blog/?p=85 ====== emoray13 Anyone have any other ideas?	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
The future of CSS layouts - tilt http://www.netmagazine.com/features/future-css-layouts ====== snorkel Finally we're getting back what <table> gave us years ago. ~~~ fortybillion Nested tables worked, but they were incredibly hard to write/edit by hand. This gives us a way of using those layout concepts while still maintaining some separation of document structure and layout definition. ------ ZoFreX I'm really not enthused about bringing multiple column layouts to the web. Yes, they are a staple of print - so is getting newspaper print on my hands. Should we be building USB fingertip-dirtyers? Multi-column layouts are a case of humans having to adapt to the constraints of the medium; as we move to the future, our content should be bending to our will, and not the other way around. ~~~ mechanical_fish The problem is that we're not in 640x480 world anymore. We're rapidly leaving 960px-width-world. Our displays are finally getting denser (which lets us use smaller font sizes successfully) and wider. And the desire to avoid 120-character-wide columns isn't some arbitrary fetish of print design. Over-width columns actively hinder readability. Robert Bringhurst: _Anything from 45 to 75 characters is widely regarded as a satisfactory length of line for a single-column page set in a serifed typeface in a text size. The 66-character line (counting both letters and spaces) is widely regarded as ideal. For multiple-column work, a better average is 40 to 50 characters._ _If the type is well set and printed, lines of 85 or 90 characters will pose no problem in discontinuous texts, such as bibliographies, or, with generous leading, in footnotes. But even with generous leading, a line that averages more than 75 or 80 characters is likely to be too long for continuous reading._ These typographical rules of thumb are ultimately derived from human physiology -- limiting the range through which the eye has to skip left and right makes reading more relaxing, and the mental act of trying to go from the right edge of a mile-wide paragraph to the left edge without losing one's place is fatiguing. [1] Up to now web designers have coped by forcing a single column, forcing that column to be of limited width, and just padding out the remaining width with navigation elements or whitespace. But the whitespace begins to look ridiculous when it's 80% of the width of the screen. So we're probably going to see more instances of successful multi-column layouts. This is likely to break continuous scrolling, but on a device which supports useful multi-column layouts you'll probably be okay with page-by-page scrolling. Or, well, not. We shall see. \--- [1] I highly recommend resizing the HN screen if you want to read one of my doorstopper comments. ;) ~~~ ZoFreX Oh, I know full well that narrow columns are easier to read. I'm just not convinced that jumping from the bottom of one column to the top of the next is easier than scrolling and thus reducing vertical and lateral movement of the eyes. To me it seems optimal to reduce eye movement, but in fairness I am just assuming that is the case and drawing my conclusions from that assumption. ~~~ pavpanchekha Most of the cases where I've wanted to use multi-column layouts were cases where that would let all my content be on one page. The benefits to all your content being visible at once are pretty great, so I'm happy newer CSS specs help. ~~~ ZoFreX I'll have to have a play with it then :) ------ rglover As a front-end designer, I'm excited to see the flexible-box model creep into existence. It'd be nice to do a fluid layout without having to do a bunch of workarounds. Excited to know that we'll soon be able to escape the dark past that has been the web (hacks, bloated markup, extra stylesheets, etc). The only thing missing: Microsoft should make browser upgrades mandatory after a certain period of time, as should everyone else. Granted, this may cause some issues but what would the major drawbacks be (extra work for IT depts. doesn't count)? ~~~ PakG1 The backlash for ending support for Windows XP early and getting everyone to upgrade to Vista was huge. Microsoft bowed to all the corporate customer pressure and extended support for XP. Given all the web apps that are made for older browsers, I can imagine a similar backlash easily, though I don't know whether it would be on the same scale. But I can definitely imagine it being enough for Microsoft to back off from such a decision. No harm, no foul is the safest route for Microsoft to go. ~~~ rglover Sure it's safe. But that's because people are lazy. Taking your example of web apps for older browsers, shouldn't the teams behind those products be upgrading them anyways or at the very least trying? ~~~ PakG1 When there are better things to do, there are better things to do. When it's not broke, don't fix it. Spolsky's arguments about why Netscape 6 was a bad idea applies very easily to enterprise web apps where code bases have no application outside of that particular organization, and so it's even harder to modify things. edit: There's something in many corporations called the hurdle rate. All projects have to provide a financial return that is above the hurdle rate. Updating web apps to work on newer browsers does not easily compute to surpassing the hurdle rate because you did nothing to add new functionality/productivity. So it's very hard to get funding for this kind of work in many organizations. ------ macavity23 The 'grid' element is very neat. Basically, it's <table>s, but in CSS, which is where they should be. Also interesting is that Adobe is taking a front-and-centre role in the new CSS. Forward thinking of them to see the writing on the wall. ~~~ Volpe Did I miss something? How are Adobe front and centre? They don't have a browser... I'd say Google/Apple/Mozilla are taking front and centre, with Adobe trying to come up with new tricks to fend off the inevitable death of flash. ~~~ talmand How exactly is Adobe making proposals to the CSS standard going to fend off the "inevitable death" of Flash? One has very little to do with the other. Is it so easily forgotten that Adobe has tools other than Flash? Ever heard of Dreamweaver? Plus there are numerous companies involved in creating the HTML and CSS standards that are front and center that are not involved in creating a browser. Take your blinders off. ~~~ Volpe I'm the one with blinders? - Seriously? The browsers implement the standards... hence the front and centre. IE defined the "standard" for a long time (and still does). Dreamweaver is a horrible example of 'front and centre' of HTML/CSS. It creates horrible markup. None of Adobe's other products are at all related to HTML/CSS (Edge aside). ------ nikcub I love the new grid - this is going to make design so much easier, eg. 'i want a header, three columns, and a footer' no longer requires 150+ lines of markup. and it should be possible to write a shim for it for older browsers and bring the new syntax to existing browsers now (or, as soon as the standard is ratified) the sooner we can do away with the old css layout techniques, the better. ~~~ CoryMathews 150+ line of CSS means you are doing something very wrong. That could easily be done in a lot less. ------ tilt I find column layouts useful, expecially for "hacking" purposes. A while ago I attempted something you can check here <http://tilt2k.github.com/ressays/> Point to an Essay from the menu, with a CSS3 compatible browser you'll see an easy frontend pagination with very little struggle. ------ talmand I cannot say how badly I want that positioned float. ------ NHQ the horizontal scroll will finally have its day ------ tomelders We need to do something big to get rid of old browsers so we can all move forward and start using this stuff. We need real progress. If there were a law that mandated upgrading browsers that were _out of date_ (by whatever definition you think works) what would that law look like? How would it work? I ask, because if anyone comes up with something that could work, then we can all start pestering our politicians to put it into action. It might be a complete non starter of an idea, but I'm so tired of seeing all these awesome time saving HTML5 tricks I cant use, it's got to be worth a shot. ~~~ michaeldhopkins Probably the FCC would regulate browsers. In addition to wasting developers' time filing reports and talking to government employees, the regulating body would add more restrictions on browsers, possibly even mandating they be used to report undesirable activity. I think it's worse than a non-starter of an idea -- it would slow browser development and turn browsers into weapons against free use of the Internet. ~~~ tomelders I don't understand how you can make that jump. Its true that a badly thought through law could open the door to that sort of activity, but that's not guaranteed. Also, I see reason to "regulate" browsers. Lets say the law was this.... "A person may not connect to the internet using a browser more than two whole number versions behind the latest production version for that particular browser." Here we have a rule which leaves browser vendors free to pursue whichever route they see fit, with no need to supply any sort of reporting or speaking to government officials. Nor need it be enforced. For example, here in the UK we have laws which ensure web accessibility as part of the Equality Act: [http://www.rnib.org.uk/professionals/webaccessibility/lawsan...](http://www.rnib.org.uk/professionals/webaccessibility/lawsandstandards/Pages/uk_law.aspx) Now this law is not being enforced, but if you work in web design or development in the UK, you have undoubtedly felt it's repercussions as clients demand increasingly higher compliance ratings. This has been unquestionably good for the state of the web, at least here in the UK. Or perhaps there's a national security angle to take, or even an accessibility angle (I believe IE6 and 7 can't increase pixel font sizes). Maybe there's an existing law that is somehow being breached by the mere existence of IE6 & 7.... I suppose what I was asking was "Is there a creative way to mandate modern browsers in law". ~~~ michaeldhopkins If you follow US policy regarding the Internet since 9/11, you can should be able to see how browser regulation could be abused or at least slow development with red tape...and you were speculating, so it's okay for me to do that too. If you really meant that Congress or the FCC should make a suggestion to stop using old browsers, that is completely different. It would be followed to the degree that IT departments could afford to upgrade old computers, conduct training and whatnot. It's interesting you mention that UK developers are very compliance-conscious. Perhaps I misunderstand, but every rule that must be complied with increases the development cost of a project, and I believe the reason you want every browser to support IE8 is you want to save development time. If I understand you right, you want to shift your time burden onto browser developers and IT departments, the reverse of the current UK situation you support where the compliance burden is shifted from the IT departments to the web developers! ~~~ tomelders I think you're making some huge leaps of imagination there. It seems your starting with the assumption that laws can only introduce red tape and slow things down. While this is certainly possible, it's not inherent. It is absolutely possible to draft rules, or policies in such a way as to reduce red tape. Take for example Van Halen's policy on M&Ms <http://www.snopes.com/music/artists/vanhalen.asp> While not in the political sphere, it demonstrates perfectly how a well thought out policy can reduce complexity while still delivering results. Any attempt to argue that this has no bearing in a political context serves only to illustrate a complete and utter lack of imagination. _Once people know the M &M trick, it becomes useless... but M&M's are one example of that technique. Next time, it could be Alphabet Spaghetti with all the A letters removed._ Also, what new training would be needed in order to work with modern browsers? People who need training on how to use a modern browser require training of a completely different sort. Since when did "borderline-retarded" become our baseline? Accessibility laws here in the UK have actually made development easier as it has created an environment where developers have a much bigger input in the design process as they can cast an expert eye over concepts and raise concerns at a very early stage. This isn't about removing features, it's about building features that work properly. Nor is it reasonable to class IE8 as a modern browser. IE9 is almost there, but I don't think IE can be classed as "modern" until IE10. Nor do you understand me right. I don't want to shift my time time burden onto anyone, I want to do more in the time I have. IT departments make the call on what browsers their users can use, so it's reasonable to shift some of the _support burden_ onto them. Any talk of "internal systems" that depend on ActiveX and the like demonstrate a lack of investment in technology. Why should we (the human race) be anchored to the past by people who are unwilling to invest in the future, despite reaping the benefits of other peoples investments. It stinks to me. Browsers are free. Modern browsers are easier to support. modern browsers are more secure. Modern browsers increase productivity. Modern browsers have low system requirements. There's no real excuse for not using them. But lets carry on as we are. It's been working crap so far, but let's soldier on at a snails pace. With any luck, we'll be able to stop supporting IE7 sometime around the point we all retire. And heaven forbid we explore any new angles on how to push things forward, even if it's just out of pure interest, because that's wrong... apparently.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Patent troll claims it invented the Windows 8 and Windows Phone “tiles” - shawndumas http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2012/10/patent-troll-claims-it-invented-the-windows-8-and-windows-phone-tiles/ ====== kstrauser It sounds like SurfCast owns some pretty valuable intellectual property. Good for them! Of course, I wonder if they've been paying taxes on that property. If not, then Maine Revenue Services might be interested in the fact that a local corporation has been evading their taxes. On the other hand, if SurfCast is willing to attest to the Maine Revenue Service that their property has no value and should not be taxed, then I'd like to see Microsoft introduce that into court as evidence that SurfCast can't have suffered financial harm. So which is it: is SurfCast filing a baseless lawsuit over valueless property or are they tax evaders? ~~~ politician Are you suggesting that IP owners owe (real estate) property taxes? ~~~ jlgreco That would have some interesting consequences. Could I suddenly owe lots of taxes if I get a really great business idea that I think is worth a lot? ~~~ mdonahoe Only if you patent it, granting you exclusive right to that idea. ~~~ jlgreco What if I copyright something? The text I am typing right now is under copyright by default, if I write something particularly brilliant here, can I expect to owe a good deal of taxes? If not, why not? Both are intellectual "property", and both _clearly_ can have very real value. Why should unpublished books be any less taxable than un- implemented patents? ~~~ kstrauser Good question. Why not, indeed? If you're stating that a property has a cash value, such as by selling it or suing for that amount in real damages, then why shouldn't you have to pay taxes to the government that protects your right to copy it? Ideas aren't a naturally limited resource. It takes government intervention to declare that an idea is owned by one specific party. It seems only fair that the beneficiary of that intervention should be expected to support the government that makes it possible. By the way, I have no problem whatsoever with property rights. Although I think software patents are BS, if the government says they exist, then they exist. I just don't think it's fair that these non-practicing entities are paying their fair share to support the system that's netting them a paycheck. Why would I have to pay taxes on a rent house that I lease out, but they don't have to pay taxes on a patent that they lease out? ~~~ jlgreco I don't think that claiming damages implies a worth that should necessarily be taxable. If I am in an automobile accident and my spine is destroyed, I don't think anybody would suggest that since my spine is worth something to me that I should have been paying taxes on it. Paying taxes to ensure copyright protection would basically have the real world effect of pealing back default copyright. No works would be protected unless the creator went through the trouble of registering^Wpaying tax for that work. I don't think society would be better off without default copyright, so copyrighted works must remain effectively untaxed "properties". The problem I am having here is that you are conflating physical property with intellectual "property" just because you want to go after patent trolls. What you are proposing would not be limited in effect to the people _you_ dislike though. If Bob Handyman were to invent a new type of, say, catalytic converter, in his garage, this would be of immense value to the automotive industry. This would therefore be an _incredibly_ "valuable" patent. (And Bob would of course have to patent his new invention, unless he were a fool.) ..But under your proposal he would then be responsible for a _massive_ tax that he could _never_ dream of paying. And if he didn't pay this tax, automotive companies would then be free to use his invention without giving him anything? That is crazy. ------ meaty There was a piece of DOS software in the late 80's called HyperPad which had tiles and used them to display status and launch applications. I can't find a single screenshot of it though unfortunately. I'm sure that is probably slightly "more prior" art. ~~~ jotux <http://www.atarimagazines.com/compute/issue115/406-1.jpg> ------ loumf _Never shipped a product, only started describing its tech as "tiles" in 2011._ The word "tile" is used prominently in the patent. ------ adrianonantua I think we all agree that software patents just gotta go (specially the ones regarding UI). The real question is how to make that happen. Perhaps having a big player like Microsoft targeted by a troll will help. ~~~ mrich They have been targeted many times, and paid quite some millions (billions?) over the years [1] [2]. The thing is, the big players like Microsoft all have large patent portfolios and are using them to keep up the oligopoly, they have no interest in abolishing the system. [1] [http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2009/10/company-that- won-...](http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2009/10/company-that- won-585m-from-microsoft-sues-apple-google/) [2] [http://www.inquisitr.com/112717/microsoft- loses-i4i-patent-l...](http://www.inquisitr.com/112717/microsoft- loses-i4i-patent-lawsuit-supreme-court-awards-290-million/) ------ bitwize Prior art: Windows 1.0. Microsoft even once gave a demo of how fast QuickBASIC compiled code was by writing a program that split the screen into quarters and showed different real-time data displays into each quarter. You could call that prior art, even if it weren't for Windows 1. ------ jakejake Is it possible to sue a patent troll for time and legal fees if you win the original case? I know they are basically shell corporations, but it would be great to see these patent cases incurring some risk for the trolls. ~~~ debacle What is the risk to a company whose only asset is the patent which, should they fail to win their case, is probably useless anyway? ~~~ rayiner Welcome to the problem of limited liability corporations in general. You think it's irksome to win a judgment against a shell that has no assets in the patent troll context, imagine it in the environmental damage, shareholder fraud, etc, context. ~~~ jlarocco On the other hand, imagine losing your house, car and savings because somebody finds a bug in your product and sues you... ~~~ rayiner Presumably if you're designing products that could cause that much damage if they malfunction, you can buy insurance against any resulting problems. Limited liability is a public subsidy for big business--it reduces the cost of inherently risky business activity by shifting those costs to the injured public rather than to the business owners. It's really arguable whether such incentives are needed and whether liability insurance wouldn't be a more appropriate measure. ~~~ debacle Most LLCs have assets and thus require liability insurance anyway. The tech sector is a small slice of the business space. Lets phrase it another way - you get a bad shipment of chocolate from a supplier, and your cookies send a handful of kids into allergic shock from the peanuts tainting the chocolate. One of them dies. You're likely going to be sued, and your liability insurance is likely a drop in the bucket (enough to cover your business assets). Do you still deserve to lose your house? ------ SethMurphy For those interested in the actual patent here is a link: <http://www.surfcast.com/images/pdfs/US6724403.pdf> I particularly find the following quote interesting from the last line on the first page: "The present invention is intended to operate in a platform independent manner." ~~~ illuminate In that they are interested in suing as many platform developers as possible? ~~~ SethMurphy No, in that a claim can be so specific and so vague at the same time. ------ mdonahoe Amusingly, they use screenshots from Windows Explorer in their patent drawings. See Fig. 1 in the first patent (pg 3) <http://www.surfcast.com/images/pdfs/US6724403.pdf> The pictures has some funny Drive names: Bambam, Fatbelly, Bigboss, Hulk. ------ swang Gee, waiting until Windows 8 releases before filing a lawsuit rather than before hand when the damage to your "company" could have been avoided. I wonder why that is... Seriously though, even disregarding any previous prior art, Microsoft already did stuff like this back in 98 when it was called Active Channel. ------ tsycho I am glad that a patent troll has directly attacked one of the software giants. Now hopefully Microsoft with its deep pockets and legal team can crush this troll. ~~~ anonymfus Microsoft lose in such cases surprisingly often. Smart Tags in Office, onclick activation of plugins in IE... ~~~ Dirlewanger Yup. Fuck, they lost their right to use "Metro" to describe their now "Modern- UI style." MASSIVE fuck up in my opinion. Microsoft should have raided the coffers to protect using that term. ~~~ neurotech1 Agreed it was a massive SNAFU. Metro AG is a huge corp, based in Germany, that wasn't interested in licensing the 'Metro' trademark to MS in a settlement. I don't think any dollar amount was mentioned for continued use of Metro. ------ at-fates-hands I know there has been a spat of these recently, but I always think about Robert Kearns and his lifelong battle against Ford for his intermittent windshield wiper patent. As much as we hate patent trolls, once and a while, there is an exception to rule which proves us all wrong. ~~~ nitrogen Is an intermittent windshield wiper really worthy of a 20-year monopoly? ~~~ bduerst Depends on how much you have invested in it. ~~~ thirdtruck And even then, I could spend the rest of my life on digging holes and refilling them. I might have _invested_ countless hours in such effort, but that does not grant it any inherent value. ~~~ bduerst Did Ford try to infringe on your patent for hole digging? ~~~ nitrogen The value of a patent is not in whether it is infringed, but whether it is both novel and non-obvious. Many software patents are neither, as evidenced by the recent spate of lawsuits over patents that largely amount to "regular expressions, but _on a PHONE!!111_." ------ TopTrix I have now realized that anything can happen in the world of ... ------ lemiffe I am REALLY pissed off. Idiotic patent trolls. GAH ------ acluistic I thought this was an article from The Onion. ------ xo Stop the madness	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Internet Archive: What’s new with v2 - castell https://blog.archive.org/2015/02/12/whats-new-with-v2/ ====== anc84 > We have a lot of long-time users of the site, and we know that any major > changes will cause them to have to relearn where things are and how to > accomplish the things they already know how to do on v1. This kind of major > change can be very annoying, so we’re working hard to make sure you only > need to relearn things once. Criticism by long-term members is not purely a matter of confusion. I highly dislike the change from a "tabular" and highly text-based design to the image centric infinite-scroll one we got now. Showing cover images of random unknown music makes no sense in my opinion, there is nothing to recognise and music does not show in images. The information density has been drastically reduced. Things are reduced to icons and everywhere there are transitions. If archive.org is trying to change its audience (and contributors) then it might be a step into the right direction, but for me, the new design is a step in the wrong one. There definitely are discovery problems but I don't see how the new design helps. It reminds me more of a random modern 10 second attention span site than a well thought out interface to a vast archive. ~~~ gavinpc I stumbled onto the new design about a month ago. I had mixed reactions to it, one side of which was like yours: "Oh no, they're going to ruin it." But then I found these amazing treasures that were so much better than what I was looking for [0]. The Internet Archive is so priceless, so special, and so impossibly good, that I have to trust the people who make it. As long as they are "focused on how the site looks," there is nothing they could do to ruin it. Yes, the changes are pointless for someone who was already happy with it. But if they are able to bring more attention and support this way, then more power to them. Their #1 job is to keep it alive, and I'm sure this is motivated with that in mind. And after all, they have an API. [0] [https://archive.org/stream/playseditedannot03shakuoft#page/1...](https://archive.org/stream/playseditedannot03shakuoft#page/176/mode/2up) ~~~ anc84 As someone who likes to share data sets via IA, their hiding of the plain list of originally uploaded files behind a non-colored link that only gets highlighted on mouse over made me furious many times. I don't want to have to combine a simple "download my data there" with "then move the mouse there and see how it is actually a link and oh by the way the actual files I meant to link you to are available if you click that". I totally understand their motivation and I think it is great to present the potentially popular parts of the archives to the public in an "experience". But it worsened my user experience and motivation as a contributor(!). ------ wotie5 I used to find the Internet Archive incredibly useful, sadly the new design has completely ruined this. Before the site was nice and organized, now it's a big mess that seems to be designed for smartphones. Infinite scrolling really helps making the site completely chaotic and confusing. However, even though the site is ruined for me now, I really want to thank Internet Archive for all the years of enjoyment it has given me. ~~~ textfiles Hi, it's Jason Scott. I work for the Internet Archive but I don't speak for them, in this case. So, first I'd like to make clear that none of the underlying collections or data has moved anywhere. That is, all the items that are in a collection of, say, newspapers or music performances are still there - the URLs are precisely the same and were designed to be permanent. Nobody's shifting those around here. Google searches work, and the site search works the same, using the same criteria. Next, in the results pages, which include those "tiles" and infinite scrolling that is not to you taste, if you look in the upper right (next to the "Results" number), there's an icon that changes from tile mode to "list" mode. You can also turn on "details". That makes things into a list form, at least. However, for the moment, infinite scroll will still be engaged. Also note you can sort the list alphabetically, by creator, or by views. After doing those two steps, is the problem at that point JUST the infinite scroll? Is that what makes it a mess for you? Or is it a different set of issues? I'm happy to hear it in this thread, but also, if you click the "beta" button in the upper right, and write exactly what you'd like, I guarantee it's read. ~~~ dmunoz Thanks for pointing out the list and detailed views. I missed that when looking this morning as was bummed because I can't stand the unaligned-boxes- of-different-heights view that so many websites go for these days. Maybe I'm just not used to it because I recoil from it every time, but it messes up my read-from-left-to-right nature. That said, two annoyances I just noticed with the list view (braindump style): There is no header. I have no idea what the columns are. I can only guess, and that is useless for e.g. the rightmost column here [0]. Mental thoughts as I view it: It's just an icon? It's not clickable and doesn't appear to show anything useful. The speakers change to blue when I have my mouse over them. What does this mean? It's still not clickable... what is it doing? Another problem related to not having a header: when I sort by e.g. views, the views are not actually shown. Maybe I wanted to see that information as well as having the rows sorted by the column. Oh wait, I just noticed that there is a header there... but it's not clear it's for the columns of the table underneath it. They're not aligned... and it still doesn't explain what that column of icons is. But now I see that the number of views is shown as the leftmost column. I guessed that it was some sort of filesize initially (1.6B, 377.7M, etc.). One last thing, I wish clicking the column in the header would toggle ascending/descending sorting like almost every other table I've interacted with. It's not clear at first that I need to go all the way over to the left to toggle that behaviour. [0] [https://archive.org/details/audio](https://archive.org/details/audio) ------ textfiles Just to throw additional information into the mix: * The design was the first major overhaul of the back and front ends of the site in roughly 15 years. * Introduced to the public in a very light was in October 31st, thousands of modifications/fixes have happened since then. * The V2 interface truly hit major audiences around the beginning of January. So it's been roughly 4 months, in which feedback has been huge, and read. * If you visit the changelog, [https://archive.org/CHANGELOG.txt](https://archive.org/CHANGELOG.txt) \- you can see the mass of changes that are occurring, nearly daily. * The site is nowhere near done. ~~~ mlinksva Are there public source repositories such that one can see the mass of actual changes occurring? Last time I looked I couldn't find anything corresponding among [https://github.com/internetarchive](https://github.com/internetarchive) ------ TheLoneWolfling I don't like it, at all. I have yet to find an example of infinite scrolling being good, and this is no exception. And it's gone from being text-heavy to image-heavy. If it's trying to become instagram, well, good for them I guess. But that's not anything I'm interested in. At least have a theme option to keep using the old interface. I suppose I'll have to wait until someone comes out with a usable interface using the API, I suppose. ------ sparaker I really liked using archive.org back in the days when it was actively indexing pages. I am happy to see the people behind it our working to improve the user experience. Its a great idea one that goes unrecognized. ~~~ sp332 It does still index pages. You can see the results of the web crawler coming in here: [https://archive.org/details/webwidecrawl?sort=-publicdate](https://archive.org/details/webwidecrawl?sort=-publicdate) ------ jmhuret I will use the new archive.org to see what the previous version of archive.org looked like :) ------ kimmel I like the new look. I have been trying it out for the last week doing searches and reading books. It feels cleaner than the old layout. ------ themoonbus ... why did I not know that this existed until this moment: [https://archive.org/details/internetarcade&tab=collection](https://archive.org/details/internetarcade&tab=collection) ~~~ sp332 The collection of games has been there for a while (and I suppose it grows over time), but the ability to play them in a browser is only a few months old. In fact they're actively looking for more developers to improve the speed. _It 's that time again.... I'm looking for a willing volunteer coder (C++ with some Javascript) awareness who wants to take a shot at JSMESS. We have a strong theory that someone could look at the code and, essentially, fix the speed problem (which would likely fix the sound). Are you out there, coding hero?_ [https://twitter.com/textfiles](https://twitter.com/textfiles) ------ themoonbus Overall, I enjoy the redesign, but one criticism... having the secondary nav open above the primary nav bar is very strange. Any reason for this decision? ------ rwmj No search of historical pages still. ~~~ textfiles That turns out to be a huge, huge technical issue but I can't imagine a future in which that doesn't happen. ------ bontoJR Just tried 3-4 sites with no luck, alls giving back: "Got an HTTP 302 response at crawl time" Anyway, the new design is very nice! ~~~ sp332 I thought it would cache 302's and redirect you to the archived version of the next page (if available).	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Hyper-monetization: Questioning the "Bitcoin bubble" bubble - fdm http://konradsgraf.com/blog1/2013/4/6/hyper-monetization-questioning-the-bitcoin-bubble-bubble.html ====== anologwintermut Nice idea: bitcoin is converting from a novelty to a real currency so its value is going up and this isn't necessary a asset bubble because as its value goes up it actually becomes a useful currency (unlike an asset in a buble who's utility is fixed). Problem 1) No data is given on the actually equivalent monitizations of say the Euro, or the various currencies that replaced the Austra-Hungarian Goulden Krone. Problem 2) Even if this were true, it doesn't change the some greater fool problem. Unlike the Euro or the Krone, there is no known cut off date where the world goes "and bitcoin is legit". So people will delay spending and hope their money becomes more valuable. Sounds like it comes back to the argument over deflation.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Ask HN: How do fellow entrepreneurs deal with the stresses of Christmas? - dchmiel With the holidays fast approaching I'm beginning to feel the stress build up even more than usual.<p>I've been living off my savings as I'm trying to get my startup going which means my budget for gifts is really low. All around me friends and family are cheerfully buying gifts as they have full time jobs. I feel that around me, no one really understands the position I'm in and I feel guilty and truly sad that I cannot match their generosity.<p>Is this something that other entrepreneurs are going through and feel the same way? Or am I feeling like this is because I've commercialized Christmas by thinking gifts are necessary. I feel that my niece or nephew wouldn't understand not getting a gift from me during this time of year. ====== geetarista I've had some lows with work situations and loved ones always understand that kind of situation. What I've done in the past is get creative and try to still give gifts that are homemade or otherwise don't require money. Most of the time, they are so happy and excited for something so novel. Further reading: <http://zenhabits.net/argh/>, <http://zenhabits.net/bah/>, <http://zenhabits.net/giftless/> ------ dchmiel Thank you for everyone who lent me some support and offered suggestions on this. I don't know the best way to respond on HN so that each of you get a notification regarding this thread. I took some time to think about this after everyone commented, and took some action. I took some time to be with my niece and nephew and casually asked them questions on what they'd like to do over the holidays and not WHAT they wanted. They both said learning to play hockey was something they wanted to do now and next year when registration opens up. So I went out and bought them a hockey stick each. They both already have skates. And have arranged for a lot of days over their time off from school to take them to the outdoor and indoor rink to teach them hockey. The sticks are about 40 dollars each, and the rest of the cost will be my time. But since I'm spending time with my niece and nephew this will be as much as a gift to them as it will be to me. I'm trying to apply this way of thinking to everyone else. How to give them something that will have even more value if I can give them my time as well. And I think I can find out just by asking what they'd like to do, or get done, instead of what they'd like. EDIT: The sticks were 40 dollars for both, not each. ------ ronyeh Depending on how old your nephew/niece are, you can take them to do a cheap, but memorable holiday activity. For example, you can go to an ice rink and teach them how to ice skate for < $15. Or maybe have a _mega ice cream day_ (with approval from their parents of course) where you go play in the park (make / fly a kite?) and then buy several pints of ice cream and share it. You can make up for other people's generosity with their $$$ by being generous with your time. In short: experiences > stuff. ------ mixmastamyk I gave up xmas many years ago and haven't regretted it one bit. Yes, we still have a decoration or two and a nice meal, but that's it. Kind of like Thanksgiving. ------ Mz Xmas gift giving used to be something you did for children and poor people. As the world got wealthier, we commercialized the hell out of it. Or, more accurately, _businesses_ commercialized the hell out of it, as a means to milk their customers for money. I gave up doing much, if anything, for Christmas years ago. I am not really an entrepreneur, more like a wannabe entrepreneur. But, for more than a decade now, I have been on a giant Quest to get well against long odds. I happen to be homeless this year. I hadn't even thought about how fortunate I am to just not care about crap like Christmas gifts -- until I saw your question. I refrained from my no doubt rude initial impulse to post some gleeful little celebration of how lucky I feel to have opted out of such nonsense years ago. There is too much suffering in the world for me to feel that the American tradition of spending gobs on xmas gifts -- many of which will be completely pointless wastes of time, money, and energy -- is of any real importance. I am genuinely sorry this pains you and I am also sorry that I have no idea how to help you make your peace with this. Furthermore, I am sorry you have gotten so few responses from other actual entrepreneurs. Had you gotten more support, you no doubt would not be hearing from me and my reply probably won't make you feel better. I tend to make people hellaciously uncomfortable. Let me suggest: Hit the library. Read some books like "The tightwad gazzette". Consider doing something free or cheap but personally meaningful. Best of luck.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Brain-computer interfaces are opening new possibilities (2013) - dnetesn http://nautil.us/issue/59/connections/pop-pop-pop-she-heard-her-brain-in-action-rp ====== winterismute I got fairly into these years ago at the beginning of my MSc, since a research team at my Uni had cool projects about them. I gradually lost interest but I have been wondering lately if the recent advances in the Machine Learning could be capable of significantly improving the quality of some BHI application: I am happy to get pointers on papers/research labs to check out! ~~~ p1esk From what I understand, the main problem is getting the signal form individual neurons, and getting a large number of those distinct signals. I don't think there are any non-invasive methods to do that, and no one wants to do a brain surgery on a healthy brain to implant a large electrode array. ------ 52-6F-62 I bought an early EEG interface from MyndPlay. It still sits fairly unused in my wall-mounted cabinet. For shame. I was pretty interested in this stuff a little while back. Daily work needs kind of steamrolled it. I recently interviewed with another company working on these kinds of devices, however their application appears to be limited to wave tracking for meditation. They failed me for not being able to answer some vaguely-worded multithreading questions when the job was to work in web and embedded software... I'm still intrigued. Like @winterismute said, I wonder if ML can help — maybe with pattern detection/seeing through the ..."junk". ------ domtron_vox Related open source project: [http://openbci.com/](http://openbci.com/) I have no affiliation with them just ran across it a while back and it has been sitting on my to-do list. ------ melling One of Elon Musk’s companies is working on this: [https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-08-25/elon- musk...](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-08-25/elon-musk-s- neuralink-gets-27-million-to-build-brain-computers)	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Simple and easy to use Node.js client library for Oauth2. - andreareginato http://andreareginato.github.com/simple-oauth2/ ====== tferris So great that there is some alternative to passportjs which isn't easy to get in. Try to repost at a better time or another post (i.e a tutorial)—user authentification/autorisation is one of the most wanted libs on Node ------ yuchi Awesome package! Why should I use it instead of [Passport.js][1]? Could you explain its benefits? [1]: <http://passportjs.org/>	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Hack your life for fun & profit with Mitch Altman (creator of the TV-B-Gone) - gourneau http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4600578110948529551&hl=en ====== asmithmd1 Interesting history of TV-B-Gone; all the way from inspiration to recommendations of good Chinese contract manufacturers. Also a good caution about not warning your credit card processor if you are going to be exceeding your stated velocities. When he first set-up TV-Be-Gone website he thought he was wildly overestimating his first years sales when he told them $100k/year. Three weeks later he had orders for almost $300k - good problem to have, right? Well the credit card processor was worried he wouldn't be able to fulfill all those orders so they told him they were holding back the money until he did. The trouble is he needed that money to pay for the shipment of new stock, almost causing the exact problem they were worried about - He was bailed out by a loan from family. TV-B-Gone now employees 11 people! ~~~ 3pt14159 This is actually a lot more common than you would think. I knew a oil prospector that 'struck it rich' but had his line of credit called on him by the Bank of Montreal because they didn't think he could handle setting up that many oil rigs at once. Nearly drove the guy out of business. He ended up suing them (he was successful in an out of court settlement and ONLY because BMO called it within 30 days instead of the 60 days specified in his contract) and to this day refuses to sign any agreement with any financial institution without his lawyer rewriting everything. ------ SwellJoe Anyone else think his "presentation" enunciation is strikingly similar to that of pg? ~~~ alabut Yeah, absolutely, and I thought the same thing when listening to Bruce Sterling's SXSW talk. I don't know the technical name for it - it's the professorial thing where the speaker lowers the tone of the voice at the end of the sentence (like the opposite of what you do when asking a question).	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
The Benefits of Failing at French - danso http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/16/opinion/16alexander.html ====== DonPellegrino The author hits an important point. I'm a native French speaker and speak to anglophones trying to improve their french everyday and the overwhelming majority gets distracted if they don't get the noun genders right, pick the right verb tenses and all sorts of things like that. They hesitate mid- sentence trying to remember the rules and get it perfectly instead of just saying "Tommy hitted me" like in the article. As soon as they start hesitating, they freeze and switch back to English. I can't emphasize how important it is to just keep going. The point of language is to get the message across. The details like verbs and genders will come with practice and to practice, you need to use the positive feedback loop that getting the message across generates. ~~~ vdance I learned French in my mid-20s -- in France. I spent a year learning French at a school and literally couldn't even understand fluent, spoken French by the time my ex-girlfriend moved back to the US. I stayed in France and began dating a French girl who didn't speak English at all -- so we had these weird intellectual/juvenile sounding conversations in the beginning - with me basically speaking confusing, garbled French 100% of the time. Point is, after about one month together with her, I understood spoken French very well, and could articulate some fairly complex thoughts. It just felt like the language came crashing into my head once I had to "articulate" what needed to be articulated and "hear" what needed to be heard. It's one of the strangest feelings of immersive learning that I can remember. Like DonPellegrino mentioned, I never really cared about gender and proper grammar, because... when your girlfriend doesn't know your language, you just have to force the thoughts out somehow. This might sound obvious, but if you have a partner who speaks another language fluently, just speak in your native tongue and ask them to speak in their native tongue. From my experience, the most powerful part of learning a language is just "slowing" it down in your head. You'd think you could just watch television to do this -- but in my experience (multiple languages now), you can't. It just seems like you need to be engaged intimately with another human being to get these results. ~~~ mahyarm How does that happen, entering a relationship with someone you can barely speak to? I'm very curious! ~~~ vdance For me - a dating website. Having lived in two foreign countries, I can see that my story might be impossible otherwise. It's just that, from my experience, when you meet someone on a dating website and you tell them you're a foreigner and you're pretty bad at their language, it creates a sort of "expectation" or "context" that can be nice for the first meeting (which was a drink for us). It switches the date from an awkward, "try-to-impress-her" meeting to "hey, this is kind of fun and weird" date, and can work with the right person. I brought a translation dictionary to dates before I knew French really well. With this particular girl, I remember it taking an extraordinarily large amount of time for us to even go through details like family, etc. But, she was patient and intrigued I suppose, because we only communicated in my garbled French. On subsequent dates, I remember taking walks around the city. I can't remember too many exact details because it was 7 years ago -- just that she was very patient and quirky and I truly felt like a little kid absorbing up the French. ------ jmhain I set out to learn Spanish almost exactly one year ago, deciding it was ridiculous to be monolingual in a world of thousands of languages. My approach was as intensive as the author's; I completed the Duolingo skill tree, read books on grammar and slang, watched, listened to, and read Spanish media and Spanish translations of English media, attended meetups, etc. While I'm only 23, I experienced the same "mental fountain of youth" effect the author describes. At first, it all sounded like gibberish even if reading along with what I was listening to. My mind refused to accept words and concepts that didn't map one-to-one with English. I repeatedly mixed up similar looking words. Despite constant failure, I kept at it, and eventually it just "clicked". Spanish errors started to sound like "he hitted me". I went from barely memorizing a few words a day, to successfully internalizing hundreds. And the best part is, all these cognitive benefits have transferred to other realms. I memorize stuff on Anki now just for the hell of it because it's so easy. I am about halfway to being fluent in German after only a month of study. I really can't recommend learning a foreign language enough. ~~~ theintern I'm glad to hear a glowing report from using Duolingo. I find it easy to put in daily practice with (must maintain my streak!) and it's good to hear that it gave you a good foundation at the end of it all. ~~~ jmhain Fortunately, I like languages and Duolingo enough to use it regardless of the streak. I've experienced a lot of weirdness with it that ultimately caused me to lose it despite daily practice. ------ time0 “Into the face of the young man who sat on the terrace of the Hotel Magnifique at Cannes there had crept a look of furtive shame, the shifty hangdog look which announces that an Englishman is about to speak French.” ― P.G. Wodehouse, The Luck of the Bodkins ------ VeejayRampay I'm French and I do realize it's a pretty complicated language to learn. Ridiculous amounts of exceptions to every single rule, dozens of tenses (which no one ever uses), lack of general structure, arbitrary genders, it's got it all. My personal piece of advice to anyone: don't waste your time learning French, it's a dying language. Go for Spanish if you need a latin language, it's at least used in Spain, the United States, Central and South America. And once you speak Spanish, French comes rather easy (with the benefit of Italian and Portuguese becoming almost trivial). ~~~ danso Would you say French is more or less complicated than English (from how much you can evaluate the two fairly, though it seems like your English is excellent)? I'm frequently catching myself on how hard English must be to learn...having it pushed on to me in school is only second in born-privilege to being a U.S. citizen by birth. My Vietnamese parents have been in the states nearly 40 years, speaking English in their jobs and to me everday, and it's still off. I took French in high school just because most everyone else was taking Spanish...that was not a good attempt at rebelling :). I do love the language though, but liking it has no relation to having the discipline to be fluent in it...having situations where you need to speak it is the key factor, and that's not a frequent situation in the States. Still, I'm almost certain that if I hadn't taken French (or Spanish), I would've never known what the nuance of something like the subjunctive mood, in French or in English, and I like thinking through sentence structure when writing and reading...not sure if that casual academic pleasure offers the same level of brain benefits the OP refers to. ~~~ gnuvince Native French speaker here, I think going from "I don't know the language" to "I can hold me end in a conversation" is easier in English than in French. French has a richer set of verb tenses, while with English you can go a long way be knowing present, "<present> \+ ed" and "will + <present>". You also don't need to understand why a chair feminine and an oven is masculine (hint: there is no reason). One thing I do think French has over English is ease of pronunciation; although not completely regular, most letters have one pronunciation (unless they have an accent, which gives them a different, but clear pronunciation). If you know the phonemes, French gives you a much easier time. Try reading this [1] out loud for kicks. I probably got 90-95% of that right, but even after 15+ years of speaking English, I still got caught by a few words. [1] [http://pauillac.inria.fr/~xleroy/stuff/english- pronunciation...](http://pauillac.inria.fr/~xleroy/stuff/english- pronunciation.html) ~~~ Ecio78 I was having the same expectation in French, hoping to survive with only present, passé composé, future proche and "en train de" and avoid more complex things :) And it will probably be enough, if I'd master them, but I still don't remember tons of verbs, words and the pronunciation, oh my god.. As an Italian it shouldn't be that difficult, many things are almost the same, and in some situation it is (e.g. reading it) but the pronunciation is not easy and false friends are everywhere, so most of the time I don't know if I'm saying something that is sort-of French or I'm just mimicking French by removing some vowels and consonants here and there from Italian words... ------ noname123 Great article. Tired of learning stupid front-end JS frameworks and would love to hear your guys' story about failures at other hobbies and not just foreign languages and what insights you gained from it. Me personally, I took up basketball and thought that I could be like LeBron dunking on everybody, then I realized that I was short and Asian and have no leaping ability; then I shifted my goal a little bit to aim to be like Allen Iverson to try to cross and drive, then I realized that I wasn't fast nor agile and had no crafty finishing moves around the rim, so I settled on being Jason Kidd before he could shoot, a point guard who passes the ball but I enjoy throwing my teammates good passes at the right time for the bucket so they can finish. I took up guitar and thought I could be like Jimmi Hendrix, soloing and have women throw panties at me up on stage. Then I realized that I had little finger strength nor dexterity to play sixteenth-notes, bends, and vibratos. So I settled on just trying to mime the part and playing with emotions like when you're doing a bend or a vibrato, contorting your face with wistful wrinkles and tilting your head rhythmically like Santana would behind his sunglasses. But I enjoy playing music esp. when it's heavily distorted so that no one can hear properly the poor tone and timing of my playing. Finally I also took up daytrading and thought I could be like George Soros and play a game of chicken with the British treasury and make a killin'! Then I realized that I had little to no understanding of the dynamics of the option pricing model and had no discipline except that I was overwhelmed with greed and ego when the market is riding high and conversely with fear like a chicken when the market goes against me. So I settled on keeping trading and accepting to give my broker and hedge funds my money, but trying to preserve my capital for as much as possible and taking small losses - so I can extend giving of my money to Wall Street for as long as possible. Would love to hear what you guys' failures and success stories at learning a different craft and your insights gained. ~~~ pessimizer You build up your finger strength with practice, and also using your little finger instead of sliding your entire hand over because your pinkie hurts. Pinkie pain is just a stage. ------ arafalov A couple of points: 1) The guy lists his activities with heavy focus on Rosetta Stone. To me that pretty much invalidates his claims on the spot. RS is not really well respected in language learning circles (at least a couple of years ago, it was not). Pimsleur is better due to its exponential backoff repetition model and it's "how do you say" prompts. 2) I did not see any mention of activities that actually built vocabulary. Not in a "listen to a show" way, but in a "read a book and translate every word you don't understand". I learned English that way. As a Russian, I studied it in school and in private courses to no effect. When I came to Australia, I decided to re-read Tolkien's "The Hobbit" but this time in the original rather than Russian translation. Of course, I did not realize that Tolkien was philologist... So, I may have learnt a bit more of vocabulary and grammar than I really needed for street English. 3) When you learn your first foreign language, you are learning two things at once: language-learning practices and specifics of specific language (vocabulary, grammar, sounds). That's why Esperanto as the first foreign language is great. ([http://www.springboard2languages.org/](http://www.springboard2languages.org/)) You learn the practices (in a very supporting community [http://lernu.net/](http://lernu.net/)) with a very regular language. Then, you can attack a more complex language like French. 4) As an aside, last couple of years, language learning startups were quite popular. Unfortunately, they all try to address global market and don't dive deep enough into any single language. Therefore most of the interesting & academic research that could have really impacted language learning process goes unused. I have about 10 pages of (technical) notes on what _I_ would want from a language-learning website and I have seen less than 10% of it out in the wild. ~~~ jodrellblank To pull a bit out of the Esperanto / Springboard2Languages idea, particularly watch this linked TEDx talk about teaching Esperanto to young school children: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gSAkUOElsg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gSAkUOElsg) How it serves as a good simplified language because it's so regular, there's very little learning before you can start saying your own sentences instead of reciting pre-made ones. ------ jsbgir I can't recommend the Pimsleur language courses enough. They teach languages in a way that's similar to how a toddler learns to speak - by going from sounds to words, and by gradually expanding your lexicon while jogging your memory on previously learned words and phrases. In my experience, 45-50 daily 30-minute lessons were enough to comfortably navigate a new country. Most courses include ninety 30-minute lessons. ------ kstenerud There's a reason why toddlers learn so "easily": They must communicate in order to get what they want. If you were placed in a similar situation, where you cannot get what you want unless you speak the language, it would not take you very long to learn. I went through this twice in my life: Once between ages 5 and 16 (French), and once between ages 31 and 35 (Japanese). In both cases, it took about 6 months to get the basics, after which the rate of learning slowed a bit due to the decline in novel situations requiring new usage or vocabulary. ------ gwern > After a year of struggling with the language, I retook the cognitive > assessment, and the results shocked me. My scores had skyrocketed, placing > me above average in seven of 10 categories, and average in the other three. > My verbal memory score leapt from the bottom half to the 88th — the 88th! — > percentile and my visual memory test shot from the bottom 5th percentile to > the 50th. Studying a language had been like drinking from a mental fountain > of youth. > > What might explain such an improvement? What? 'regression to the mean' comes to mind. People shocked by their extremely low scores are often shocked to find that their scores improve over time... ~~~ disgruntledphd2 While that is completely true, its somewhat unlikely to go from the mid point of the distribution to the tails. Its not impossible, of course, but its less likely. The 5th to the 50th certainly suffers from that problem, however. ------ Steko Ta-Nehisi Coates at the Atlantic has talked in depth over the past few years about his attempts to learn French as an adult and I believe he's incommunicado at the moment due to an immersion program. Nice video here showing his level at the time, great moment near the end when's he's asked by his conversation partner to explain his recent article for the magazine (the widely discussed 'case for reparations' article). [http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/06/a-l...](http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/06/a-last- tango-with-paris/373168/) ------ fallinghawks The best thing about speaking bad French is that it makes French people speak English to you. Possibly because they don't want to hear their beloved language mangled, but I don't really know. All I know is that they kindly switched once they heard me speaking. :) ------ virtualwhys I challenge any Anglophone without mastery of the French language to say the word, "flourure" (making sure to elongate the Rs) before a group of Francophones _without feeling absolutely ridiculous_ There are other examples but I find this word (meaning flouride) especially comical as it stumbles out of my mouth at the pharmacy -- as does anyone within hearing distance ;-) I believe the "th" sound is generally difficult for latins. As a test, if you are Francophone please stand before a mirror and quickly say, "hello, my name is thof thimblefith", making sure to enunciate each "th" clearly. If you can do so you will have mastered a lisp. ------ KhalilK Speaking of personal experience, when begun at an early age, learning a language will be really easier and almost innate. I started learning French at the age of 8 within school classes, then English at the age of 11 and finally Spanish when 17. I am thus not as fluent in Spanish as I am in French or English BUT since French is a dying language and way complicated I find English to be the perfect language to use, even on a personal level and despite the fact Arabic is my native tongue. Bottom line is, if you are a parent and wish for your kids to learn a particular language, start as they are young. ------ gedrap I tried to learn Mandarin a year ago because I started a relationship with a Chinese girl. The words made no sense (felt just a completely random sounds), got angry and gave up after a couple of days. A year later, after hearing a lot of Mandarin (she speaks quite a lot of Mandarin over the phone and I spent a month in China), I gave another shot. It feels much easier, more familiar and less random. Of course, it's a totally anecdotal 'evidence'... But getting familiar with the sound of the language before actually studying might help. ------ windust Spanish native speaker here. I'm still waiting for my ah-ha moment (I'm learning Japanese for the past 4 months at a rate of 4 hours per week), I do hope it arrives. It took me probably 5 years to be fluent in English, and probably 4 more to actually be good enough as to read/write government proposals, abstracts/CFP, and finally co-authoring a published book "Java 7 Recipes"; my accent still lingers (javapubhouse.com if you want to hear it), the Ys, Js all come out with the same sound for me. I did learn French for 5 years, but lost most of it due to not practicing it. Learning French coming from Spanish felt a little weird because there are gender swaps (for the inanimate objects) that do trip you up. Did try to learn German for 5 months just after finishing French, so I ended up sounding like a French speaking German, which my teacher hated (and whom scared me away from the language!) I noticed that I'm not really going anywhere fast with my Japanese and I think I might be doing it wrong (listen to one hour podcast while running / biking). Some stuff sticks but in general it does seem that my progress is nowhere near what I had when learning the other languages in a more structured format. ~~~ aneisf Going off-topic a bit, I highly recommend you peruse the forum over at the Reviewing the Kanji site (koohii.com). Even if you have no interest in the book the site is based around (Heisig's Remembering the Kanji) there are troves of great advice and methods for Japanese self-study to be found there. ~~~ windust Neat, will check it out. Yeah, Kanji might be a tall order right now (still working with Hiragana/Katakana first), but found the forums. Kinda nice to find a community of Japanese learners ------ bane This is timely. I'm about 4 weeks into a "let's learn Korean" self-study program. The last time I seriously tried to learn a foreign language was Spanish in high school and it was quite a debacle. But after many years married to a Korean woman, I finally decided I was embarrassed enough not knowing more than a few utility words in Korean to take the plunge. I remember looking into learning Korean about 6 or 7 years ago and there really weren't many on-line self-study resources and very few classes I could take. This time I found an virtual explosion of resources, free text books, skype practice sessions, listening guides, vocabulary resources, etc. For more popular languages, like French, the number of resources is almost mindboggling. I've decided to focus the beginning of my studies on raw vocabulary acquisition and I've settled on using Anki to do this. My friends know that I have a pretty bad memory, so I've been shocked and surprised at how well Anki has worked. In 4 weeks I've managed to memorize (to different degrees of recall) about 300 words (out of a list of the 1000 most common). Last week I sat down to start my grammar lessons with a free university textbook and was even more shocked and surprised at how much of the text I was able to decode. I wouldn't call it comprehension exactly, but maybe 20-40% of the beginner-level sentences I could read well enough to get the gist without knowing any grammar. I checked ahead into later chapters and was amazed that I was still able to work out some non-negligible percent of most of the lessons. For practice I watched a couple Korean tv shows (they love to put subtitles under everything which is helpful) and was also surprised that I could work out some bits of the nightly news. Not enough to really know what was going on, but within a month going from knowing basic foods and the word "bathroom" to starting some minimal comprehension felt pretty remarkable. More recently I've been practicing language production and took the attitude the article advocates -- just focus on getting the point across, don't worry about all the grammar bits. So, when something my wife and I are doing involves some vocabulary I remember, I try to formulate a basic sentence around it. I know I'm missing some things, but I told my wife to just grade me on "is it understandable or not?" not on "is it correct or not?". It's eased up the pressure quite a bit. More importantly, even if my little experiment fails in the end. Outside of language study, I feel much more..."engaged" all the time. Like my brain is turned up a little. I'm finding my memory is definitely improving and some mental tasks that were starting to become harder as I've aged have started to become easier. It's actually kind of cool. ~~~ silencio Out of curiosity, what are the texts/resources you're getting vocab from? Where do you get shows to watch? Did you pick up on the basics like the alphabet and pronunciation first and study that together? My husband's just like you and beyond knowing words for his favorite foods and some of the lyrics to Gangnam Style, he doesn't know much more. I would like to change that. Plus it'd be nice to practice my rusting Korean with him - there's few Koreans in SF and most assume I'm Chinese despite my Standard Korean dialect. I really want him to learn for raising our future kids fluent in multiple languages but no real stress there - between me (fluent in 2, conversational in 1, formerly conversational in 2-3 I could pick up again), my bilingual mother, and my polyglot father (former military interpreter, near fluent to fluent in 4 and currently learning 3-4 others or however many he maxed out on with his best friends Duolingo and iTunes U...) I think they will be covered. I dug up some of my old books, AppleTV has KORTV and Crunchyroll and Netflix/Amazon have an okay movie selection (can't figure out how to get it to show/hide subtitles in multiple languages and sometimes english is just burned into the video itself -_- )...I also talked to some Duolingo people at I/O about contributing to "Korean for English speakers", but eh. I grew up with the language and my limited formal study was with a super nerdy polyglot linguistics researcher at Yonsei (Korean Ivy-level-esque university) so I have no idea where to start for new mostly monolingual learners for a less popular language. ~~~ bane I learned Hangul years ago from some website. It's impressively easy to learn and makes figuring out pronunciation _way_ easier than writing Korean in a Latin alphabet. There's actually a great list of resources here. [http://www.reddit.com/r/korean](http://www.reddit.com/r/korean) and more specifically here: [http://www.reddit.com/r/Korean/comments/rq3th/the_ultimate_b...](http://www.reddit.com/r/Korean/comments/rq3th/the_ultimate_beginners_resource_thread/) Right now I'm using Ankidroid and Anki for Windows and OS X (all free and they sync with Ankiweb, Anki for iOS is some small fee) for vocabulary. There's tons of "decks" (all free) available through Anki. I'm currently grinding through the "Korean 1000 most common words" deck since it also has a vocal pronunciation for each word for me to practice against. You have to be a little disciplined with it: for each card, listen, practice the pronunciation and then when you flip the card the for the meaning score your result honestly for the SRS system to work right. You only ever get 20 new words a day, but it adds up really fast. Right now I do a morning session (or I break it up into two 15 minute sessions), and then in the afternoons I use Ankidroid to generate a list of words I keep forgetting to practice against. I do this every day. I'm using this textbook at the moment. [http://artsonline.monash.edu.au/korean/my- korean-1/](http://artsonline.monash.edu.au/korean/my-korean-1/) It's free, and I just upload it to my google play books account and read it on my tablet. I'm also entering every sentence and vocabulary word from this book into a new Anki deck so I can practice more as well as get some time learning how to type in Korean. I don't have a Korean keyboard, so I took a screen shot of this one ([http://www.branah.com/korean](http://www.branah.com/korean)) and printed it out and just stick it on top of my cheapo $5 Logitech keyboard to help me. It's slow, but I'm getting steadily faster. About once a week, I'll do an extended study session and sit down for a few hours and try to _write_ all of the vocabulary I'm learning and what it means. This is giving me practice actually writing Hangul, which will help me later in reading people's messy handwriting. I'll probably start doing this as well to improve my handwriting since figuring out how to fit different syllables in a square is still a challenge for me. [http://koreanvitamin.wordpress.com/2012/11/28/how-to- practic...](http://koreanvitamin.wordpress.com/2012/11/28/how-to-practice- writing-hangul/) I've tried and struggled a _lot_ with memorizing vocabulary in the past which is why I've put it off for so many years, so I can't say enough good things about Anki. If I have a criticism, it's that I'm much better now at remembering Korean->English than I am going from English->Korean. There's some decks that cover that as well though, and I'm planning on making a "1000 most common words in English to Korean" deck at some point when my Korean and typing gets better. There's also a deck of every TOPIK vocabulary word I'm planning on moving to next. It's almost 8,000 words. For videos, I'm not as much into those yet. But I'm planning on moving to start that in a few months to build listening comprehension. My goal is not academic/formal Korean, but more conversational/colloquial. So I'm thinking of shows like Running Man on www.dramafever.com might be good to watch, at least if you get tired studying you can be entertained. There's also quite a few youtube channels at various levels of complexity. The people who make the videos usually put quite a bit of effort into them to make them at least entertaining. In my queue for future studying: [https://www.youtube.com/user/talktomeinkorean](https://www.youtube.com/user/talktomeinkorean) [https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCg-p3lQIqmhh7gHpyaOmOiQ](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCg-p3lQIqmhh7gHpyaOmOiQ) (he puts subtitles everywhere in Korean and English so it's super helpful to pause on each sentence and work them out) [https://www.youtube.com/user/sweetandtasty/videos](https://www.youtube.com/user/sweetandtasty/videos) \- mostly English, but she provides lots of entertaining background stuff and nouns for things \- Based on my readings from other people and what to expect, I'm expecting to get up to _very_ basic conversational level in 6-9 months and be able to handle most typical daily conversational needs somewhere between 1-2 years of study. Korean is a _very_ hard language for English speakers to learn (as I'm finding out). ~~~ bcmd87 Sorry to push my own side project but it might be useful to you guys. [http://www.toktogi.com](http://www.toktogi.com) It's a popup dictionary extension for Chrome and Firefox that is based on an open source K-E dictionary ([https://github.com/garfieldnate/kengdic](https://github.com/garfieldnate/kengdic)). It still needs a lot of work, but I plan to open source it soon and hopefully allow people to contribute back to and improve the original dictionary as well. ~~~ bane OMG, this is amazing. I've already added it. Really appreciate it, this will definitely come in all sorts of handy. ------ dredmorbius Much of the discussion here is focused on the linguistic acquisition aspects of this article. I see the largely ignored wider aspect to be that of skills learning, particularly in light of _unlearning_ and lost plasticity. The key paragraphs are these: "[A] 2-year-old’s brain has a substantial neurological advantage, with 50 percent more synapses — the connections between neurons — than an adult brain, way more than it needs. This excess, which is an insurance policy against early trauma, is also crucial to childhood language acquisition, as is the plasticity, or adaptability, of the young brain. [NB: I challenge the assumption that the excess neural capacity is simply for trauma recovery -- it seems specifically applicable to the very mental plasticity that youthful skill acquisition entails, and which _needs_ to be discarded as concrete skills are laid down.] "Another advantage a toddler holds is his very lack of experience. After speaking our native language for decades, we adults can’t help but hear the second language through the filter of the first. And this filter doesn’t take decades to develop. Researchers have found that newborn Japanese babies can distinguish between the English “L” and “R” sounds, but if not exposed to Western languages, they begin to lose that ability — not by the age of 6 or even 3 — but by eight months. "Adult language learners are, to borrow a phrase used by some psycholinguists, too smart for our own good. We process too much data at once, try to get everything right from the get-go and are self-conscious about our efforts. But toddlers instinctively grasp what’s important and are quite content to say, “Tommy hitted me,” as long as Tommy gets what’s coming to him." That is, if you're trying to learn something, _anything_ , as an adult, you're up against two principle blocks: • Your brain has physiologically adapted. It's no longer sufficiently plastic to accept novel concepts. • You've got a litany of previously acquired skills (or biases) which get in the way of the new knowledge. It's a form of Mark Twain's famous "It's not the things you don't know, but what you know for sure that just ain't so". Or, in this case, just ain't what the new skill you're trying to pick up is. Which may also help explain youthful hiring bias in software and tech. ------ Kaivo Without realizing it, we think in the language we know[1]. When starting to learn another language, we still think in our native language and translate it to the foreign one. However, when reaching a higher experience with a second/third language, the thought process gradually changes. My native language is French, but very often I have thoughts "in English", because the idea seems easier to express/understand with the way English works. Sometimes, the words don't exist in French to express the idea I'm thinking, while it exists in English. I've read somewhere (citation needed) that at some point, one would stop thinking in language and start thinking in concept. [1] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_and_thought](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_and_thought) ~~~ arafalov My first language is Russian. But I spent so long outside of Russian language and culture that my language of thought and speech is English. Not a citation, but a confirmative data point. Still, I feel that my English speech and thought lacks the nuances I get when my mind and my mouth switches back into Russian. ------ tawan I started to learn French a year ago and I made a lot of progress. There are just a few bugs left to fix in my own vocabulary management tool, and then I'm ready to learn some words, systematically well tracked and documented. ;) ------ autokad one problem i have with foreign languages is how its taught. a child spends years to just get to 'i hitted the dog' and still mispronounces most of the words and its like 'yay great job. despite the kid having the synapse advantages over an adult. an adult spends a few months learning an entire language and its like 'what? you have to learn how to spell it correctly, say all the right tenses, pronounce it correctly, etc etc or else you're not learning!'. i feel like we're forced to focus on so much detail and our minds just quits on us. ~~~ rlanday Children seem to always figure out the details eventually, whereas many second language learners seem to miss out on some details unless explicitly corrected, and even then find it hard to change established speaking habits. I’m not sure anyone really knows why this is, but it’s one reason why some people recommend trying very hard to avoid speaking (and listening to others speak) incorrect sentences when learning a language. ------ irv few days late, but thought I'd share my anecdote. several years ago now, I was on a road trip through the largest island of Japan, Honshu, and was staying at a cheap roadside motel in the middle of nowhere. My girlfriend was having a shower, and I walked out of the room without the keycard as you needed it to operate the lights etc in the room. off I went to grab a few cold drinks from the vending machine, and then suddenly realised I had no idea what room number or even what floor our room was on. Despite what she says, my girlfriend is fluent in Japanese and I'd always relied on her to do all the hard work, and spent maybe 3 months picking up a bit of the language a few years previously. Well, I had no choice but to go to the front desk and explain the situation using the full range of my vocabulary. As a few people have already mentioned, native Japanese speakers tend to treat you with a mix of awe and pity when you clearly can't speak the language but nonetheless attempt it. But exactly as the article described, I concentrated on saying what I could, not what was necessarily correct. I actually surprised myself, and my girlfriend when I eventually returned to the room and explained why the cold drinks were now tepid. ------ scott_s I imagine that most earnest attempts at problem solving will yield the same cognitive benefits. So I just won't stop programming. Good thing I love it. ------ guard-of-terra The L-R confusion with asian languages' speakers is very strange to me btw. For example, English has t and th and f, most other languages don't have th and some don't even have f. However it's very rare to see non-native English speakers to swap or merge those sounds. Virtually unseen in writing. Asian languages' speakers do swap r and l and vice versa in writing too. ~~~ colanderman Asian languages have neither the English R (tongue curled backward in mouth, sides curled upward relative to mouth; "retroflex approximant") nor L (tongue straight, sides curled downward; "lateral alveolar approximant"). Rather, they have an R which is a combination of these (tongue straight, sides curled upward; "alveolar approximant"). Without a native sound to map these two distinct sounds to, it's easy to confuse them. I've definitely seen foreigners confuse TH and T in writing. TH is very often pronounced (and therefore sometimes likely misremembered) as T. TH and T a more distinct than R and L however; TH is fricative (has duration), T is plosive (instantaneous). What's more common is for foreigners to confuse our sundry vowels. I count at least 14 distinct sounds. Many foreign languages have only 5. But since we have only 5 written vowels, we notice less when a foreigner uses the wrong vowel (and brush it off more as an accent). English speakers confuse u and ü in German; ㄱ (k), ㅋ (kh), and ㄲ (kk) in Korean (heck I know phonetics and I can't get these right); e and é, and gender in French (quick, where do the accents go in "resume"?). Chinese speakers confuse second-person pronouns in English. Japanese confuse green and blue. There are a ton more examples of such confusion; they're all due to our minds mapping information based on our native tongues. ------ thret Dr. Carlos do Amaral Freire has supposedly learnt 115 languages. I find that difficult to comprehend. [http://thelinguistblogger.wordpress.com/2008/09/30/the- wisdo...](http://thelinguistblogger.wordpress.com/2008/09/30/the-wisdom-of-a- man-who-knows-115-languages/) ~~~ tokenadult Any such claim implies a much lower level of proficiency for "learnt a language" than most of us are referring to when we say that someone has learned a language fluently. ------ thadk When I'm learning a human language, especially immersed, I find that I can play the Set game twice as well. Proof enough for me. [http://www.setgame.com/set](http://www.setgame.com/set) ------ tokenadult First I'll address the point about cognitive testing found in the article. "So to reassure myself that nothing was amiss, just before tackling French I took a cognitive assessment called CNS Vital Signs, recommended by a psychologist friend. The results were anything but reassuring: I scored below average for my age group in nearly all of the categories, notably landing in the bottom 10th percentile on the composite memory test and in the lowest 5 percent on the visual memory test." And later the author writes, "After a year of struggling with the language, I retook the cognitive assessment, and the results shocked me. My scores had skyrocketed, placing me above average in seven of 10 categories, and average in the other three. My verbal memory score leapt from the bottom half to the 88th — the 88th! — percentile and my visual memory test shot from the bottom 5th percentile to the 50th. Studying a language had been like drinking from a mental fountain of youth." An alternative explanation is that the author enjoyed a practice effect from taking the test more than once, and didn't necessarily gain much from his effort to learn French. To tease out which explanation makes more sense, we would have to know more about score stability ("reliability" in the psychometric sense) of the CNS Vital Signs test, and what validation studies have show about practice effects from repeated test-taking on that test. I grew up as a monolingual native speaker of General American English in the heartland of that dialect in the upper Midwest of the United States. My first foreign language instruction in school occurred in the fourth grade of elementary school. My school district was very unusual among American school districts of that era in having mandatory German classes each week in fourth, fifth, and sixth grade, promoted and developed by a school district employee who was a refugee from Germany. So everyone I went to elementary school with had early exposure to foreign language learning--at least early compared to most other American school pupils. I studied more German in junior high, moving to another school district in ninth grade that didn't offer German at all in junior high, even though that state (Wisconsin) has a higher percentage of German-descended persons than any other state in the United States. In tenth grade I moved back to my home town in Minnesota, and took one more year of high school German, which I bombed at after the time off occasioned by my move out of state. The following year in eleventh grade I started taking Russian, which went more smoothly for me, in part because German grammar got me ready for Russian grammar, and in part because the teacher was more kindly and more engaging and I had classmates in Russian class who were highly motivated to learn languages and shared their love of languages with me. I went into university as an intending Russian major, hoping to take Chinese on the side as an elective course. But as soon as I started taking Chinese classes, I fell in love with that language--no declensions of nouns, no conjugation of verbs, and mostly indication of grammar by word order, as in English--and eventually switched my major course to Chinese when I had to formally declare a major and dropped taking Russian classes after a while. Chinese is of course especially challenging when it comes to achieving full literacy. (Chinese is plenty challenging for native speakers of the spoken language to achieve full literacy in the Chinese Han character writing system.) But I persisted, and enjoyed along the way learning about methods of language study from the writings of John DeFrancis, the dean of teachers of Chinese language to a whole generation of American students. As I left the United States for a first stay overseas, with a university degree in Chinese language, I could read a book in Modern Standard Chinese reasonably comfortably and could also read some of the classic texts in Literary Chinese, but I could barely keep up with a live Chinese conversation. Landing in Taiwan in 1982, I had a headache soon after I arrived, and it was immensely gratifying to be able to go to the corner drugstore and say, "I would like to buy aspirin" and be understood well enough to get what I wanted. That relieved my headache even more than taking the medicine. Before I had left, I had spoken to two different Americans who had each spent a year living in Taiwan after two years of studying Chinese in the United States. They gave me what seemed like very contradictory descriptions of how they were able to get along linguistically in Taiwan with that much background in Chinese. One said, "It was great. As soon as I got of the plane I found out I could use my Chinese to talk to people." The other said, "It was terrible. For the first six months I was there I could hardly understand a thing that people were saying around me." I found out that they were BOTH correct, as I could communicate my needs, when I had them, especially around local people who were used to meeting American students, but I had the worst time for the longest time really understanding radio broadcasting or live conversation. I was very gratified when I could first listen through the full weather forecast on the radio and understand every word and phrase--months after arrival. I have studied other languages, both "dead" classical languages and living languages from various language families. Every language on earth has purely arbitrary features that make it differ from other languages, and what makes a language "easy" or hard is mostly resemblance to a language a learner already knows. (German felt very easy indeed to me after I had studied Russian and classical Greek, for example, even though it had seemed hard earlier.) Young people in Taiwan used to tell me that Japanese is "easy" in about the same way that many Americans say Spanish is easy. There are many opportunities to learn each language in each of those places, but to learn them well is not particularly easy, really. My experiences as a language learner have turned into advice I share on the World Wide Web[1] and here on Hacker News.[2] Fortunately, there are a lot of tips (one could say hacks) that help learners learn foreign languages better. I admire the many participants on Hacker News who participate while using English as a second language. That is not easy. Few Americans could participate in online discussion in any language other than English. I'm not sure I think that studying Chinese and other languages I've studied really strengthened my cognition, but I am glad for the experiences I had overseas and think that even Americans who will never leave the United States should make the effort to learn at least one foreign human language. [1] [http://learninfreedom.org/languagebooks.html](http://learninfreedom.org/languagebooks.html) [2] [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6302276#up_6302816](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6302276#up_6302816) ------ spindritf _Short of cauterizing your own genitals, nothing seems like it would change who you are like speaking in an-other 's language. Blech, I'd rather wear someone else's underwear, no thanks, I'll take the 12 credits but no way am I retaining anything. "Well, science says you lose the ability to learn languages as you get older." Oh, did NPR just interview TED? Dummies in other countries and dummies in the CIA learn as adults, are they all using different science? An American describes another American who is fluent in French as "oh my God, he's so smart, he speaks French and everything" but this statement is easily unmasked as a defense by getting him to describe a Frenchman who speaks English: "well, they all speak English over there." The bilingualism is robbed of the "intelligence" signification because it's seen as customary.... who they are. America is a branded-identity nation, which means hearing yourself speak in not-your accent, with not-your vocabulary sounds very not-you, which is why when an American tries to speak French he feels self-conscious, but the Frenchman hearing it feels you aren't even trying. He'd be wrong, you are trying: trying not to become French._ _" Ugh, I hate psychobabble, why can't you be more like Malcolm Gladwell and give me practical neuroscience based tips like 'get up before dawn' or 'play basketball annoyingly'?" Fine, here's your concrete advice that you won't take for shaving 6 months off your second language acquisition: master the accent first. Before even one word of vocabulary. The accent will teach you the rhythm of the words and the grammar-- it will make it okay for you to learn the vocabulary. And you will think differently. American exceptiono- isolationism isn't arrogance, it's a cognitive bias impressed on us from kindergarten when we learn that there are only two languages in the world, English and Everything Else. Which teaches us that a German is more similar to an Italian than a Texan to a New Yorker, and I can predict with 100% accuracy that if that made you pause you only speak English. Can't wait to hear your foreign policy ideas over drinks. You should work for NPR._ _Once you have the accent down, pick a foreign language actor or actress you admire, and learn the language as if you were them. Talk like them. This trick works because you are thinking like someone else, acting like someone else, yet simultaneously distancing yourself from this change-- I 'm doing this, but it's not me, I'm just pretending. The self-consciousness is removed because it's not "you" who is doing it. Yet it is; and after a time, you'll become it-- and the positive benefit for society is you'll hate the guy you used to be. C'est la vie._ [http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2012/05/thank_god_the_heart_a...](http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2012/05/thank_god_the_heart_attack_gri.html) ~~~ zwieback I love TLP but losing your accent is easier said than done. I started learning English when I was a few years old and I've lived in the US for 22 years speaking English 99% of the time. My German accent is still clearly there. I'm not sure what it would take at this point but it's not something that happens easily. I listen to the way other people pronounce words but hearing your own accent is hard. Interestingly, my kids claim they can't really hear my accent, they know I speak a little differently but they don't think I sound like Arnold or Angela. ~~~ fenomas I think TLP's accent advice falls squarely into the "fake it until you make it" category - like becoming a confident presenter by impersonating somebody confident when you get on stage. It's not that if you try hard your accent will go away, it's more that you (consciously) do an impression of the accent you're learning. So if you're studying German you go full Ahhhnold. I didn't read that TLP column until I was mostly fluent in my second language, but in retrospect I think it's spot on (and one of his best - he can be a little hit or miss). ~~~ _delirium This is a big stumbling block for Swedes trying to speak Danish (which is a very similar language grammatically, but pronounced quite differently). Going "all in" reminds many people too much of Swedish comedians making fun of how Danish sounds, so they worry they'll sound mocking if they speak like _that_. So, many will try for a less "exaggerated" Danish accent instead, which ends up not sounding very Danish at all. Doing the Swedish-comedian-impersonating- Danish accent is actually a decent place to start, but it just sounds wrong and borderline offensive to Swedish ears to try it. ~~~ fenomas I don't think it actually matters whether you're any good at the impersonation - the point is to convince your brain that you're creating a new persona, rather than trying to change your existing one. (An overarching theme of TLP's writings is how extraordinarily good the brain is at insulating itself from change.)	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Do not allow newly created accounts to create new threads - mellampudi For the past couple of days I see that there are advertisements being submitted to HN. For example. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=523061 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=523001 And the accounts through which these threads are submitted are just created (2 hours and 1 day in the above cases). I thought we can prevent this by not allowing user accounts created within a couple of days to create new threads or by not allowing user accounts with 0 or lesser karma to create new threads. Any thoughts ? ====== mooism2 These attacks are probably automated, and it would be trivial for the spamming software to be updated to get round these restrictions. I don't think it would take long. The cost would be that HN would be less welcoming to newcomers. That's a permanent loss for temporary gain, and I don't think it's worth it. I think your idea can be improved on: (a) instead of hardcoding conditions that we think indicate spamminess, the server should be keeping track of what characteristics spammers tend to display (sprinkle Bayesian magic pixie fairy dust here) (b) new threads that are neither clearly spammy (banned) nor clearly unspammy (allowed on as now) should be provisionally allowed on the new page, but then banned should a single reader flag it, without the intervention of a moderator (c) moderators should be able to unban threads if need be The important thing is: although we have to play whack-a-mole with the spammers, we must take care to play whack-a-mole at as high a level as possible and not have to worry about the details. ~~~ aj <i>(b) new threads that are neither clearly spammy (banned) nor clearly unspammy (allowed on as now) should be provisionally allowed on the new page, but then banned should a single reader flag it, without the intervention of a moderator</i> Don't you think that will start flagging wars or egregious flagging without a just cause? I think a score should be maintained by tracking how many users flag an article and based on a combination of Bayesian filtering and user reputation (karma) and perhaps some other factors, the post be killed or let remain. ~~~ mooism2 Maybe. I was thinking that if the server marginally decides a thread isn't spam, it should be easier for readers to overrule it, and so classifying threads into 3 threads is better than into 2. I think your idea is better. ------ allenbrunson spam isn't just a problem for "the past couple of days." there have been a flood of spam submissions for probably a year now. they all get killed eventually. pg has the situation under control. if he needs to take further measures to handle the problem, i'm sure he'll do whatever is necessary to keep things running smoothly around here. ------ alnayyir I concur with this proposal.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Ask HN: Where can I find a white hat hacker - dynofuz We run a small startup with very sensitive data. We've done a lot to secure it, but I'd love to get input from a white hat and do some deeper security testing. How do I find a white hat hacker / security expert I can trust and bring into the fold for a security audit? ====== dsacco I run Breaking Bits Security ([https://breakingbits.com](https://breakingbits.com)). We work with a lot of the YC community. Our rates are also a lot more sane than most of the larger consulting shops since we have no sales, marketing or account management teams to support :). We offer web application security assessments, mobile application security assessments and source code review. We also offer company training and reverse engineering services, but I'm assuming you are most interested in web app sec and source code review, correct? Check us out if you're interested, my email is in my profile. Good luck with whatever you choose. ~~~ vong A heads up, the source code analysis link is broken. ~~~ dsacco On the front page? Thanks, just fixed that. It was working in the navigation bar, just didn't have the most recent link in that section. I appreciate the heads up :) ------ teenageSec Start a bug bounty and you'll get some attention from white hats. Or post the link here and with your permission I'll give it a quick look through. ------ brianwawok I am not sure a white hat is going to add value in most cases. You have sensitive data and are worried about security. This is good (far too many people aren't). Bang for buck though, you are going to do better with a very security minded developer. A good developer with OS knowledge can make sure your code base is safe from all the common vulns and follows best practices. In general, that would be a lot more useful to you than someone that would come in and maybe find a hole somewhere. Now if you did something very nich like invented your own crypto algo, and you need a white hat crypto guy to go test it - sure - get an outside set of eyes. But for someone to check for root access being disabled over ssh and no SQL injections? Seems overkill. Fortune 500 companies will throw millions at white hats, and only find a few vulns. As a startup I don't think you can do that (unless your funding rocks). ~~~ level3 This seems like a poor approach if you are really serious about the security of your data. Proper pen testing encompasses more than a single app you may be developing. 1) A developer can only help secure your code base, not your entire infrastructure and company-wide security practices. 2) A single security-minded developer does not suddenly make the rest of your developers more security-minded (not to mention your non-developers). 3) Even the most security-minded developers may lack knowledge of specific security threats. They are primarily focused on development, not keeping up on every new vulnerability or attack technique. I agree that cost may be an issue, but pretending that security needs can be solved by finding the right developers is pretty short-sighted. ~~~ brianwawok I think it is a more likely path to success then hiring a pen tester and hoping he finds all your bugs! Fortune 500 companies spend millions on pen testing and miss stuff. How much can you afford to spend for a startup, and what will your ROI be? I have nothing against pen testing. But it should be like your 7th line of defense. Not sure most startups have the other 6 figured out.... ------ atmosx I would hire these guys[1]. I used be in the same "crew" with one of them back in 2003. I trust his skills. Some of them are Phrack authors (is this a thing these days? Can't tell). Note that I have no affiliation with them. [1] [http://census-labs.com/](http://census-labs.com/) ------ alltakendamned Look for a company offering penetration testing services, there's quite a lot around, from one-person freelancers to large shops with 1000+ employees. ------ sarciszewski If you need someone to look over your code and configuration to verify that you're secure, check out our work at [https://paragonie.com](https://paragonie.com) and feel free to send us an email. ------ mreeder What is your motivation for having security testing done? Are you subject to regulatory requirements? Or are you just doing it for your own peace of mind? What stage are you in the SDLC? My email address is in my profile - happy to chat and help you figure out the best approach.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
Application helps you search information relate to languages and technologies - vinhnglx The application helps you search information relate to languages and technologies. Currently, this application just supports three sources: [StackOverFlow](http://stackoverflow.com/, [RubyGems](https://rubygems.org/), [Confreaks](http://confreaks.tv/) with simple features.<p>Try it out: https://github.com/vinhnglx/gaea ====== brudgers This might make a good "Show HN". Guidelines: [https://news.ycombinator.com/showhn.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/showhn.html) ------ trootech That's a great idea, I was thinking to do it back sometime however thought one important aspect that coders who search through mobile application would not be able to use codes from mobile application directly so less of a use to readers but coders. I will sure check your application :)	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }
A practical security guide for web developers - zianwar https://github.com/FallibleInc/security-guide-for-developers ====== buckbova Had this SO link saved since probably soon after it was asked 7 years ago. Still relevant and still being updated. [http://stackoverflow.com/questions/549/the-definitive- guide-...](http://stackoverflow.com/questions/549/the-definitive-guide-to- form-based-website-authentication) Includes: \- How to log in \- How to remain logged in \- Managing cookies (including recommended settings) \- SSL/HTTPS encryption \- How to store passwords \- Using secret questions \- Forgotten username/password functionality \- Use of nonces to prevent cross-site request forgeries .......... And much much more. ~~~ freditup The quote at the beginning of the SO question you linked to, one of the top-25 questions of all time, is so ironic given the current state of SO: > We believe that Stack Overflow should not just be a resource for very > specific technical questions, but also for general guidelines on how to > solve variations on common problems. SO is a great website, but I wonder how much more it could've been if this sort of a page was allowed now. ~~~ anjanb I know what you're saying but they're coming out with Stackoverflow documentation : [http://stackoverflow.com/tour/documentation](http://stackoverflow.com/tour/documentation). Not sure whether this will be the solution that you're looking for. But if you give feedback, maybe, it will happen sometime. ------ niftich Efforts like this are very good. But one of the most serious problems with web development is how few frameworks ship with most of these sane answers out-of-the-box ( _edit_ : or don't ship concepts at the right level of abstraction) When we all need to copy-paste some best-practice way of how to Argon2 a password and how to constant-time equality check a hash, we've already lost, in that we're reimplemeting these sane answers every time from the weeds. I want to see more things like Django's automatic password hash upgrading [1]. Specifically, checklists like this effort's should be for people who develop frameworks, and not people who develop custom apps with them. With some things like CSRF protection, we're already there, but with so many other things, we're not. [1] [https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/1.9/topics/auth/passwords/...](https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/1.9/topics/auth/passwords/#password- upgrading) ~~~ ubernostrum While I appreciate the kind words for Django, there are plenty of libraries and frameworks out there which are doing the basics of web app security out of the box these days, and my recommendation is to find one you like and use it. The big obstacle there is people who insist on writing their own versions of everything rather than using off-the-shelf components. I know it's a point of pride for some folks not to "rely" on third-party code, or to post long rants from someone's experience with a late-90's-era framework as evidence that they're all awful, but getting a bunch of best practices done for you for free is the advantage they offer, and given how hard it is to cover even the basic security bases, that's an advantage I think people increasingly can't afford to give up. ------ 0xmohit Security Engineering: A Guide to Building Dependable Distributed Systems by Ross Anderson is available online for reading -- [http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/book.html](http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/book.html) A couple of other resources: \- 7 Security Measures to Protect Your Servers [0] \- SSH best practices [1] In case one doesn't prefer to be overwhelmed with documentation, one could refer to: My First 5 Minutes On A Server; Or, Essential Security for Linux Servers [2]. [0] [https://www.digitalocean.com/community/tutorials/7-security-...](https://www.digitalocean.com/community/tutorials/7-security- measures-to-protect-your-servers) [1] [http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/book.html](http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/book.html) [2] [https://plusbryan.com/my-first-5-minutes-on-a-server-or- esse...](https://plusbryan.com/my-first-5-minutes-on-a-server-or-essential- security-for-linux-servers) ------ br3w5 Rather than just "JWT is awesome..." wouldn't it be more sensible and responsible to caveat this with some of the drawbacks? I read this article recently ([http://cryto.net/~joepie91/blog/2016/06/13/stop-using-jwt- fo...](http://cryto.net/~joepie91/blog/2016/06/13/stop-using-jwt-for- sessions/)) that proposes not to use it for sessions but instead for the use cases listed at the end of the article. Follow-up article here [http://cryto.net/~joepie91/blog/2016/06/19/stop-using-jwt- fo...](http://cryto.net/~joepie91/blog/2016/06/19/stop-using-jwt-for-sessions- part-2-why-your-solution-doesnt-work/) Also this [https://auth0.com/blog/2015/03/31/critical- vulnerabilities-i...](https://auth0.com/blog/2015/03/31/critical- vulnerabilities-in-json-web-token-libraries/) ~~~ k__ Why not using one key per user? Then I would just have to invalidate this one user and not all of them. ~~~ rahkiin You don't know who the user is until you verified the integrity of the JWT. Verifiying the integrity requires the secret. Your solution adds the dependency: the secret requires the user. It is cyclic, unsolvable without breaking a constraint. You could assume the username is correct, then get the secret, validate. But that sounds like something breakable. ------ laurencei A great book is The Web Application Hacker's Handbook: Finding and Exploiting Security Flaws, 2nd Edition [0] - by learning how hackers search for and exploit various web issues - you'll be naturally aware of them to defend against. i.e. start thinking like a hacker and you'll be amazed at the issues you discover in your applications. [0] [http://eu.wiley.com/WileyCDA/WileyTitle/productCd-1118026470...](http://eu.wiley.com/WileyCDA/WileyTitle/productCd-1118026470.html) ~~~ markc Agreed, still the best text out there for web application security. ------ danneu There's a whole section on input sanitization but nothing on escaping output. If you're on the hook to sanitize all inputs, doesn't that mean you're not escaping output? The biggest security mistake I've made so far in production was that one time I used an HTML templating library that didn't escape output by default. ~~~ vollmond Can you clarify? What exactly do you mean by escaping output, and how can forgetting that cause a security issue? ~~~ nommm-nommm Example HTML output in a user's profile: Would you like to contact ${NAME}? Where ${NAME} is a user supplied parameter (you ask them what their name is) Let's say I entered my name as: <script>/ __evil code __/ </script> Now, if the output isn't escaped the page reads: Would you like to contact <script>/ __evil code __/ </script>? You've just injected evil code into the website that will be executed every time my user profile page is visited by another user. EDIT: Hacker news doesn't properly render javascript comments. ~~~ Tehnix But that script tag would be taken care of in the input sanitation step. You normally remove all hints of HTML tags on input sanitation, which renders output sanitation a moot point. ~~~ nommm-nommm >>You normally remove all hints of HTML tags on input sanitation Then what happens when you want to use that input in an excel export? PDF export? CSV file? Text file? How about if you want to use it in an HTML attribute? In a URL? Export the database elsewhere? (Such as a credit card company reporting to the CSAs). You can't assume that your data is going to be inside an HTML page between tags always because that mucks up your data. Data should be able to be used in many different ways because it will be and should not be tied to HTML. ~~~ vollmond Ok, this is the comment that best explained it to me -- you want to sanitize (escaped, etc, whatever) output because, even if you sanitize all HTML/CSS/JS on input, they might have inserted malicious Excel scripts or PDF exploits, etc, that eventually do get executed in an output context. ------ fmavituna Use static source code analysis and dynamic web app scanners. They are easy to integrate into your SDLC, they are not going to replace manual testing or secure development practices but they'll help a lot. They'll pick up tons of stuff for free, they'll remind you best practices. I have a startup (at least it still feels like a startup!) and we are developing a web application security scanner called Netsparker [0]. It found over 100 zero days in open source applications while testing it [1], including very popular vulnerabilities in applications such as Wordpress and Joomla. I guess that by itself proves how good scanning can be. If you want to try it on your websites and see it for yourself drop an email / message to [email protected] with a mention of HN and I'll get you a fully functional trial that you can use on your own websites. [0] Netsparker Cloud [https://www.netsparker.com/online-web-application- security-s...](https://www.netsparker.com/online-web-application-security- scanner/) \- Netsparker Desktop [https://www.netsparker.com/web-vulnerability- scanner/](https://www.netsparker.com/web-vulnerability-scanner/) [1] [https://www.netsparker.com/web-applications- advisories/](https://www.netsparker.com/web-applications-advisories/) ~~~ lyonlim How does this compare with Trend Micro Deep Security for Web Apps? We're using it now but it does not seem effective - not catching much in its scans. So we're looking at alternatives... ~~~ fmavituna I never used them or seen them in a benchmark so cannot comment much of the capability or quality. I think it's best if you compare it for yourself. Running a scan very easy and won't take much of your time, drop me an email and will get you a license or account to our cloud solution, so you can test it and see how it compares. Email: [email protected] ------ andersonmvd The problem with checklists, including this one, is that we tend to limit ourselves to what's in the list. Furthermore the list doesn't explain 'why' you should do things. They help, but nothing is a replacement for education. And when it comes to education, there's a decent write up I did and is still accessed in a daily basis [0]. I also recommend you to check OWASP [1] and read their "Testing Guide" to know many attacks and defenses. [0] Security for building modern web apps [https://dadario.com.br/security- for-building-modern-web-apps...](https://dadario.com.br/security-for-building- modern-web-apps/) [1] [https://www.owasp.org](https://www.owasp.org) ~~~ k__ Well, at least it's a good starting point. ------ bogomipz Where is the actual guide? Is this the TOC for a book? It looks good but I don't see the actual content, just a check list and a table of contents. ~~~ kelvin0 Exactly! Where are the doc to all the sections? This seems terribly important stuff, but it looks like a 'teaser' to a book? If not where do we get the information for each section? ~~~ 0xmohit It's mostly a security checklist (as of now): [https://github.com/FallibleInc/security-guide-for- developers...](https://github.com/FallibleInc/security-guide-for- developers/blob/master/security-checklist.md) ------ droopybuns This is one of the best examples of how Github nails collaborative document development I've seen. It is striking how valuable much information is retained in negotiating the material here, vs email arguments with word documents and embedded content, where the app-seperation of submissions makes it too difficult to consume. ------ aruggirello > Store password hashes using Bcrypt (no salt necessary - Bcrypt does it for > you). In PHP, I would rather recommend to use password_hash() with its own defaults since it's built-in and designed specifically for this purpose - and quite future-proof. But this is PHP specific. > [] Destroy all active sessions on reset password (or offer to). > ... > [] Destroy the logged in user's session everywhere after successful reset of > password. I believe these are the same. The second one is clearer though. Edit: clarified ~~~ nommm-nommm I think the first one is saying "destroy active sessions when a user _attempts_ to change their password" and the second one is saying "destroy active sessions when the user succeeds in changing their password." ~~~ tonyarkles My interpretation is: "when a user changes their password, _offer_ to destroy all active sessions" ------ DrJokepu * Don't let HTTP GET requests modify state, ever. It's very difficult to prevent CSRF via HTTP GET. * Session keys are password-equivalents. Hash them with bcrypt or something before you store them. * httponly is not incredibly useful. If the attacker can run JavaScript on your page, you're in trouble. ~~~ minitech > Don't let HTTP GET requests modify state, ever. It's very difficult to > prevent CSRF via HTTP GET. Isn’t it exactly as difficult as any other method? > Session keys are password-equivalents. Hash them with bcrypt or something > before you store them. bcrypt is overkill, especially for something that has to be checked every request; just use any SHA-2 (non-iterated). A session key should be long enough _by far_ to resist brute force. ------ vog This reminds me of: "The Basics of Web Application Security" (Cade Cairns, Daniel Somerfield) [http://martinfowler.com/articles/web-security- basics.html](http://martinfowler.com/articles/web-security-basics.html) It's an ongoing evolving publication at Fowler's website. ------ arekkas "Check for no/default passwords for databases especially MongoDB & Redis. BTW MongoDB sucks, avoid it." Come on, you're better than this. What the fuck. ------ ckastner The following PDF focuses on just one specific aspect of security: cryptography, but deserves a mention nonetheless. Configuring various services such that insecure mechanisms are not used is not exactly a trivial task. [https://bettercrypto.org/static/applied-crypto- hardening.pdf](https://bettercrypto.org/static/applied-crypto-hardening.pdf) Edit: GitHub repo at [https://github.com/BetterCrypto/Applied-Crypto- Hardening](https://github.com/BetterCrypto/Applied-Crypto-Hardening) ------ pjmorris The guide seems to have reasonable technical measures. I would like to see more discussion of risk, both in terms of what is being protected, and of who might be trying to attack. For example, you might wish to be more careful when developing a bitcoin wallet than when tracking baseball scores. Shameless plug: I've been working on a somewhat less practical guide to software development security practices [1]. Even more shameless plug: I'm currently running a survey of security practice use in software development [2], and would welcome participants who work on open source projects. [1] [http://pjmorris.github.io/Security-Practices-Evaluation- Fram...](http://pjmorris.github.io/Security-Practices-Evaluation-Framework) [2] [https://ncsu.qualtrics.com//SE/?SID=SV_1HdQOa2lfX57vkF](https://ncsu.qualtrics.com//SE/?SID=SV_1HdQOa2lfX57vkF) ------ CiPHPerCoder Please excuse me if this comes across as anything other than constructive criticism, but I don't believe _checklists_ should be used to guide web developers to build secure software. My reason for this belief is that, in my experience, it engenders tunnel vision and what I appropriately refer to as a "checklist mentality". There are developers who believe, "We're immune to the items on the OWASP Top 10, so we're secure," when there are entire classes of vulnerabilities that applications can be vulnerable to (say: using a weak and predictable PRNG for their password reset tokens) that isn't adequately described by the OWASP Top 10. An alternative approach that I feel is more helpful is to organize insecurity into a taxonomy. * Code/data confusion * SQL Injection * Local/Remote File Inclusion * Cross-Site Scripting (XSS) * LDAP Injection * XPath Injection * Several memory corruption vulnerabilities * Logic Errors * Confused deputies * CSRF * Failure to enforce access controls * Operating Environment * Using software with known vulnerabilities * Using HTTP instead of HTTPS * Cryptography flaws * Yes, this deserves a category of its own * Chosen-plaintext attacks * Chosen-ciphertext attacks * Side-channel cryptanalysis * Hash collision vulnerabilities (e.g. length-extension) * Weak/predictable random values You can further break down into more specific instances. There are three types of XSS (stored, reflective, DOM-based). There are blind SQL injection techniques worth studying too. But the underlying problem that makes these vulnerabilities possible is simple: User-provided data is being treated as code. Any technology that prevents this confusion will greatly improve security. For example: SQL injection is neutered by using prepared statements. You might one day forget to manually escape a single input (and it only takes one to be game over), but if user data is always passed separately from the query string (i.e. you never concatenate), there's no opportunity to make this mistake. There were also corner-case escaping bypass attacks (usually involving Unicode) that you might not be vulnerable to. With prepared statements, these clever multibyte character tricks accomplish nothing. The query string is already in the database server before your user's parameters are sent. I believe teaching developers to think in terms of taxonomy (very general to very specific) will result in a greater understanding of software security and reduce the incidence of vulnerable code. I've written about this before, in case anyone wants to link to something besides an HN comment: [https://paragonie.com/blog/2015/08/gentle- introduction-appli...](https://paragonie.com/blog/2015/08/gentle-introduction- application-security) \--- EDIT: Opened an issue: [https://github.com/FallibleInc/security-guide-for- developers...](https://github.com/FallibleInc/security-guide-for- developers/issues/14) ~~~ onion2k What you're referring to is the difference between "quality checking", which is the act of checking a product meets acceptance criteria after you've finished building it, and "quality assurance", which is act of putting in processes to guarantee a product is of sufficient quality that you use throughout the build process. A lot of people believe they're doing QA when really they're only doing QC. Both are important. ~~~ nickpsecurity Interesting point. We make the same in high-security INFOSEC where one must differentiate between adding security "features" and "assurance." The features are things like trusted boot, kernel/user separation, crypto protocols, and so on. The assurance... often missing... are activities that ensure those features are built securely & provide evidence of that to 3rd parties. Common Criteria's EAL's provide an interesting set of assurance activities with descriptions of the increments: [https://web.archive.org/web/20130718103347/http://cygnacom.c...](https://web.archive.org/web/20130718103347/http://cygnacom.com/labs/cc_assurance_index/CCinHTML/PART3/PART36.HTM) ------ yeukhon The first thing jumped out is: _Store password hashes using Bcrypt (no salt necessary - Bcrypt does it for you)_ A better approach would be recommending storing password with password-based key derivation functions (recommendation: scrypt or bcrypt). I don't want to start the whole debate of scrypt vs bcrypt, GPU vs FPGA here (not qualified and we keep repeating the conversation every time the vs is on the table). - _When parsing Signup /Login input, sanitize for javascript://, data://, CRLF characters._ Not familiar with why only "signup / login" input. - _Serially iterable resource id should be avoided. Use /me/orders instead of /user/37153/orders. This acts as a sanity check in case you forgot to check for authorization token._ Had to re-think twice. A stronger argument in favor of /me/orders over /user/37153/orders is to avoid enumeration attack. - _Any upload feature should sanitize the filename provided by the user._ I like this tip very much, but if the requirement is to keep the filename (think DropBox), you should sanitize filename before storing in the database. - _Add CSRF header to prevent cross site request forgery._ I don't believe there is a standard header to do this. I had to look up "csrf header". Correct me if I am wrong. I think this is framework specific (if and only if framework supports it). A better recommendation would be to enable CSRF protection and consult with the framework you use. Most modern frameworks would have CSRF protection built-in (but implementation of CSRF protection varies!!!!!!) - _Add HSTS header to prevent SSL stripping attack._ Simply put, after the user has visited a site with both HTTPS and HSTS header present, user agent like Firefox will honor the header and always attempt to load resource (HTML, JS, CSS) over HTTPS up to the max-age declared in the header. The caveat is you must have visited the HTTPS site first. To actually implement HSTS 100%, you should always redirect user (301) to HTTPS from HTTP. - _Use random CSRF tokens and expose business logic APIs as HTTP POST requests._ Needs clarification on what "business logic" mean and why POST only? What about PUT and PATCH which also allow body to be used? GET I kind of get it. - _If you are small and inexperienced, evaluate using AWS elasticbeanstalk or a PaaS to run your code._ Again, caveat is doing everything right. PaaS and IaaS shields you away from some common mistakes, but not all. You can have a remote code execution on an EC2 with instance profile with full access to the entire VPC and the execution is to remove all instances except the one it is on. Perfect. - _Use a decent provisioning script to create VMs in the cloud._ I have to be a little picky... don't say decent. This is so ambiguous. Did you mean don't reinvent the wheel, or did you mean have a solid engineering process (code review, testing), treating infrastructure automation as software engineering as opposed to an ad-hoc scripting shop. - _Check for no /default passwords for databases especially MongoDB & Redis. BTW MongoDB sucks, avoid it._ I get it. You own the article you write whatever you want. Professionally, if you want someone to take this serious, please don't say that. I have seem people running Oracle just as good as running PostgreSQL. I have heard companies running Apache as successfully as running Nginx. I have heard horror story about Cassandra and success story about Cassandra. MongoDB has a few old mistakes like default to listen on 0.0.0.0 (I heard it is fixed by now?). BTW, I have used and have managed MongoDB, I know some of the pains, but half of that came out of not knowing what the hell I was doing. - _Modify server config to use TLS 1.2 for HTTPS and disable all other schemes. (The tradeoff is good)_ Right tradeoff is to use data and figure out whether or not you need to support legacy systems like those stuck with XP. It may not be critical, but there are companies that do. Use data first before making a decision like this. - Four other thoughts. 1\. sanitization of inputs - context matters. The same sanitation technique for HTML doesn't work for XML. That to me is one of the most complicated part in securing application. I am not surprised XSS is still #1 (or at least top 3). 2\. Run code in sandbox mode. Not necessarily Docker or a container, but chroot and restrict application access to the available system resource. That's very important. 3\. Always use reputable framework. As a young adult I love inventing shit, but whatever you invent for your work you are now responsible and the next person picking up your work after you leave is also responsible. So think twice. I am not picking on Node developers because I have seen Python developers doing the same thing - before you import a random package that does a few thing, look at the standard library. Sometimes maintaining a 100-line code yourself vs doing in two lines after an import from the code is written by a random open source lover and is mostly won't be maintained a few years from now is dangerous. 4\. Always upgrade your framework, the toolsets you use, database server you use, etc. I also think every framework should publish security best practice like [https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/1.9/topics/security/](https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/1.9/topics/security/) and even more details. Security is one of those things I'd wish I had more time to experiment and address. I am no longer active in that space of automation sadly, but from time to time I think about is the fault really on development practice and developers? Can we make everyone's life easier by having strong framework standard? Are we not making tools available? With so many formats being invented every year, we need to think about is our security flaws a result of our own creativity? Unfortunately, we can only hope for the best that we continue to improve security of our framework and we continue to add strong defaults. Also think about security testing. The low hanging fruit like detecting existence of certain security headers is trivial, but fuzzing and getting real good result of vulnerability within an app is extremely custom AND extremely hard to do (so many states, so little knowledge)... you've got very expensive consultants and then very inexpensive but also very general purpose security testing tools that may not do much and can expose common mistakes. One thought would be sampling and either repeating or mimicking user traffic and run simulations. Perhaps some machine learning stuff could help - not sure. ~~~ cottsak Add this to the github repo. It's more useful feedback this way. [https://github.com/FallibleInc/security-guide-for- developers...](https://github.com/FallibleInc/security-guide-for- developers/issues/new) ------ ronreiter This looks like a great candidate for stack overflow documentation. ~~~ jve At first, I didn't know what you mean. Now I know: [http://blog.stackoverflow.com/2016/07/introducing-stack- over...](http://blog.stackoverflow.com/2016/07/introducing-stack-overflow- documentation-beta/?cb=1) ------ kevindong I thought this line in the checklist was rather interesting: > Check for no/default passwords for databases especially MongoDB & Redis. BTW > MongoDB sucks, avoid it. ------ dionys I saw this cool site a while ago: [https://www.hacksplaining.com/lessons](https://www.hacksplaining.com/lessons) It explains basic vulnerabilities in a very simple way and offers specific ways of avoiding them in different languages. ------ saasinator I didn't see any mention on how to secure store the session id, only references to session data. It should be noted that information needs to be securely stored both on the client and server. ------ zkhalique One thing I totally disagree with: "Set secure, httpOnly cookies." That is just security theater. It's worse than useless because it makes you think you're more secure, when you haven't prevented attacks are all. ~~~ nmjenkins This is not security theatre. Secure => Attacker can't simply inject an img to a non-https version of the site and then intercept the cookie sent by the browser, therefore stealing the session. HTTP-only => An XSS attack can't steal the session cookie. You're still in big shit, but it's much harder to persist the attack beyond the user closing the browser window. ~~~ zkhalique It is security theater. Real attackers don't sit there waiting for a cookie to arrive so they can start to craft their malicious authenticated requests. If they can write a script to steal your cookie, they can also write a script to _execute the actual requests_ right there in your session. And httpOnly cookies do not prevent that at all. Security theater is worse than nothing because you think you're secure from XSS, when you should know better. ~~~ nmjenkins The "Secure" flag has nothing to do with protecting against XSS. It protects against anyone who can proxy your requests (i.e. when you connect to dodgy wifi) being able to steal your session simply by injecting <img src="[http://yoursite.com">](http://yoursite.com">) into __any non-secure web page your request __. That is a massive security hole and not theatre in the slightest. The HTTP-only flag is less important but still useful. As I said, you're still in deep shit because of course they can make actual requests and if you think it's all you need to protect you then that's a problem. But there's still a difference between an attack that can be persisted, and one that gets interrupted as soon as the user navigates away from the page. ~~~ zkhalique I'm talking only about the httpOnly flag. It's worse than useless because it makes you think that you dodged some kind of bullet, when in fact that same class of attack can still happen: the attacker needs to craft a _script_ to send the cookie to their server, so they might as well have that script execute _the actual requests_ in the context of your authorized session, the same way that they'd do it if _they_ had your cookie. They would write the script ahead of time. No real attacker would sit there at 3 AM making requests because their victim finally activated a script that sent them the cookie. Far more likely, that script is already pre-programmed to do what it needs to do. And if httpOnly cookies didn't exist, the people would care more about sanitizing their Javascript output to prevent XSS, which is the _only_ correct way to prevent this attack. ~~~ ubernostrum For what it's worth, I agree with the criticisms of HttpOnly, but I still recommend people set it as one of several redundancy measures. The approach I take these days (for example: when I gave a three-hour tutorial on web app security at DjangoCon this week) is basically to provide combinations of basic mitigations and then more complex/advanced ones, and push people do at least some combination of them, even if they can't do all of them. So to take XSS/CSRF, for example: Django's template system autoescapes variable output by default, and there's a CSRF protection mechanism on by default. Those are the basic easy things, because the advice is just "they're on already, don't turn them off", and just those simple measures will deal with a lot of nastiness for you. From there I can talk about cookie options, or CSP, or that kinda-sorta-works header that turns on reflection detection in a few browsers, and the pros and cons of each, and recommend people use combinations of them. CSP is my gold- standard recommendation nowadays, and I downplay HttpOnly as not super great, but I'm not going to complain if somebody just watches my talk and does all the things mentioned. ------ lukiebriner My problem with this is another howler for security: Creating something that already exists. Although OWASP are not legally mandated, they are the most respected go-to people for this kind of stuff and have much more exposure that your "guide" ever will, it also has a much greater level of review and scrutiny so instead to trying to help by increasing the web noise level and possibly making your own mistakes/ommissions (some of which are mentioned below), why not instead get engaged into the existing community and increase the quality of that if needed? ~~~ jessaustin ISTM I've seen some rather trenchant criticism of OWASP's lists in the past. Maybe they've improved, but are they really a "respected go-to"? ~~~ ubernostrum As a basic starting point OWASP's top-ten list is fine. I use it when doing intro web-security sessions as a structured way to start people thinking about the things that can go wrong, and I like it for that purpose because some of its items are vague enough to allow good open-ended discussions that take people out of the "just check these boxes" mindset and into full-blown paranoia. I typically follow it up with a rundown of less-obvious things drawn from my experiences with Django, to point out that even when you cover the OWASP checklist-y stuff you still very easily have major issues.	{ "pile_set_name": "HackerNews" }

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