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LambdaPi – a Lisp OS for Raspberry Pi - bsima
https://gitorious.org/lambdapi
======
analog31
I got into computers and programming during the era when several of the more
popular microcomputers booted up directly to the BASIC prompt. Perhaps out of
nostalgia, I've always had an interest in little computers that blur the
distinction between programming language and operating system.
So, I'll keep an eye on this project, and maybe it'll spur me to give Lisp one
more chance.
~~~
rrmm
I'm interested in this too. What I've been wanting is a single chip solution.
I've designed various systems based on arm7 chips, but my naive lisp
implementations barely fit any usable system into the onboard RAM (~90k).
I've been waiting for atmel or someone to put something like 1MB or so on
chip, but the market for such devices isn't there.
FORTH seems better able to fit and has a little better fundamental
underpinnings than BASIC.
~~~
phyllostachys
The STM32F429 Discovery board [1] has 2MB of Flash and 256KB of internal RAM.
It also looks like it has 64 Mb of SDRAM which might be what your looking for.
We have an engineer where I work who is trying to get mRuby up and running on
one. It has tons of memory for a Cortex-M part/board
[1] -
[http://www.st.com/web/catalog/tools/FM116/SC959/SS1532/PF259...](http://www.st.com/web/catalog/tools/FM116/SC959/SS1532/PF259090)
~~~
rrmm
That's definitely more like it. 256k is a reasonable chunk. Although at $20
and 144LQFP, it's a pricey and kind of chunky part. It exists though which is
nice.
How does mRuby do GC; does it ref count? I don't think lisps could really
afford to be ref counted, unless you pool the cons cells into groups that are
ref counted. My implementation was a dual semispace collector which didn't
help matters wrt space.
------
ddp
It appears to be based on Chibi scheme which is Alex Shinn's embeddable scheme
that was chosen as the reference for R7RS small.
[https://code.google.com/p/chibi-scheme/](https://code.google.com/p/chibi-
scheme/)
------
yzzxy
So is this a derivation of scheme, or an actual implementation of a given
scheme spec? Would be very useful as an on-the-go tool for those of us on SICP
treks if it's an actual implementation of MIT scheme.
------
pjmlp
This is great idea!
We need more people experimenting with alternative OS ideas, some of them
sadly lost, and less UNIX clones.
------
niklasni1
Here's a Scheme for a number of ARM micros, including the much more resource-
constrained Cortex-M variants:
[http://armpit.sourceforge.net/](http://armpit.sourceforge.net/)
~~~
sigzero
Sure...but that isn't an OS.
~~~
niklasni1
It'll give you a REPL on the bare metal... it's a /very/ minimal OS.
------
bartbes
Last commit was June 13th, 2012, so it appears to be dead.
~~~
datashaman
Perhaps it is feature-complete. :P
------
girvo
I've kept an eye on this for over a year now. Has there been more updates
lately because as far as I've seen the main author has moved on :(
------
r0nin
very interesting. i wonder if they have access to the gpios already. would
love to try to connect it to my logipi fpga board and shell out complex
computations to that.
------
endlessvoid94
Can't wait to try it
------
schrodingersCat
I think you meant to say "Lisp OS" in the headline. Nice post otherwise.
Thanks!
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
The Orange Juice Test - dangrossman
http://insideintercom.io/the-orange-juice-test/
======
D-Train
Interesting. This makes me think about the Airport Test as a former
consultant. The Airport Test is whether or not you could spend a day (or
however long) delayed at an airport with someone. It's more for recruiting.
However, I do like this Orange Juice Test. It's different, and not one that I
think about very much. I think oftentimes, people make a decision for others.
I believe we can influence, but not make the final decision.
You could only lead a horse to water, but can't force it to drink...
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Frequent Twitter and Facebook Users: You Might Be Narcissists - julien421
http://mashable.com/2013/06/12/social-media-narcissism-study/
======
enemtin
You 'might' be? This is not new news. Of course frequent users are
narcissists!
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Help with server logic for a multiplayer game server in GO/Unity - diericx
I am trying to create a simple multiplayer server for a simple game using GO. I currently have it so that users can join, sign in, connect, and see other users. The issue I currently have is that moving around is very laggy because I send user input to the server and all actions are performed on the server rather than on the client. Clients and the server only get and send packets every 20 milliseconds.<p>I was wondering what the best solution to this is. I feel like I have 2 options: exchange a lot more packets to make the game run a lot smoother for the client, or create some sort of prediction on the client where the client will do what it thinks is right until corrected by the server.<p>I read somewhere that Agar does not use any client side prediction/correction so it must be possible to continue without that.<p>What is the down side to sending more packets? Is that a reasonable way to solve this lag issue? And if so should I only send more on one side of the game to be optimized correctly (as in send a lot of packets from the server but not a lot from the client)?
======
iamflimflam1
This is a good article - [http://gafferongames.com/networking-for-game-
programmers/wha...](http://gafferongames.com/networking-for-game-
programmers/what-every-programmer-needs-to-know-about-game-networking/)
If you really are sending packets every 20ms then that is the equivalent of
50fps - I suspect that if you log out how often you are getting packets from
the server you'll find that you are not actually getting packets at that rate,
or the jitter on the packets is unacceptable.
Client side prediction doesn't have to be very clever. You can get good
results with very simple algorithms.
I gave a talk on this a few years ago at iOSDevUK -
[https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/508075/GameCenter%20and%...](https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/508075/GameCenter%20and%20GameKit.key)
I'm not an expert in games, but even my simple code worked pretty well.
From what I remember I was sending user inputs from the client side every 0.2
seconds - and from the server once I had the client prediction in place I
could get away with very slow updates from the server and still have the
illusion of 60fps.
~~~
diericx
I actually just noticed a bug in my code where I was only looking for data
from the server every 20 milliseconds rather than every frame. Now the
movement is smooth but the controls feel a bit sticky. I made the client send
every 10 milliseconds and it looks pretty good, but this is a really bad way
to solve this problem. I'll look at your links and try to optimize it better!
Thanks a ton for those:)
Edit: I read your keynote and I'm not sure how exactly your client prediction
worked. Is there any video anywhere of the keynote? Or could you give a brief
description?
~~~
iamflimflam1
From what I remember, the way I approached it was to have the client stepping
the game world forward every frame based on whatever the current state was of
all the players.
So for example if a player is going left, every time the game steps forward
one frame move the player left.
Then when a message comes from the server with the current game state, update
everything to the server positions and then step your game world forward to
now.
So a simplified example - we have one object in our game that has an x
position and a delta x to move it.
Local
Frame x server_message info
0 ____ no message no real idea of what the game state is
1 ____ no message
2 ____ no message
3 ____ no message
4 ____ no message
5 100 Frame=5 x=100 dx=5 we can start displaying where things are
6 105 no message
7 110 no message
8 115 no message
9 120 no message
10 125 no message
11 126 Frame=7 x=110 dx=4 (x = 110 + 4 * 4)
So we set our local state to what the server says and then step forward by 4
frames to get what we think the current state should be.
12 130 no message
13 134 Frame=6 x=105 dx=5
We ignore this message from the server as it's out of order (we've already
received frame 7)
14 138 no message
15 142 Frame=15 x=142 dx=4
No need to do any stepping forward from this server state as we are in sync.
One thing to be careful of is that normally it's not just a case of saying
it's 4 frames so I just multiply everything by 4 to get the new positions.
With physics engines and more complete calculations you probably want to step
the world forward frame by frame to get a better simulation of where
everything is.
Hope that all makes sense.
~~~
diericx
This is all really interesting, thank you so much for sharing this with me! I
just have a few questions:
Wouldn't the numbers for the current frame get really huge as the game
progresses?
How would this method of sending the current frame (from the server) and
matching it with the client work if there were a lot of people on the server?
Would the server have to keep track of the current frame of each player?
Why does dx change? Are we not assuming in this example that the character is
moving right at a consistent speed?
I am using TCP, I shouldn't have to worry too much about packets coming in
incorrect orders right? But it's probably still good to implement your method
of dealing with it just in case.
~~~
iamflimflam1
dx is changing in response to the user making inputs.
Imagine you are showing a different players character - at first the server
tells us he is moving to the right by 5 pixels per frame. So we start moving
him, in the absence of any more information we keep moving him, then we get a
message from the server saying 'actually several frames a go the player
decided to move at 4pixels per frame' we have rewind our predictions back to
the when that happened and then replay with the new movement speed.
For the current frame I just took the first packet received from the server as
the baseline frame.
So if you get a packet from the server saying "the game is currently at frame
100" that's your baseline frame, start counting from there.
You're right, if you're using TCP then you don't need to worry about out of
order frames.
One of the issues with TCP is that if you are going over a slow connection to
some players they will get behind the gameplay. With UDP packets if they are
on a slow connection the packets will just be thrown away and they should keep
up with the latest game state.
If you do a search "udp vs tcp games" you'll find a whole host of discussions.
e.g. [http://gafferongames.com/networking-for-game-
programmers/udp...](http://gafferongames.com/networking-for-game-
programmers/udp-vs-tcp/)
Personally I prefer udp - but then you have to be careful about packet sizes.
This is a pretty good library that lets you mostly forget about udp or tcp -
[http://enet.bespin.org/](http://enet.bespin.org/)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Mark Zuckerberg’s Facebook page was hacked by an unemployed web developer - chrisdinn
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2013/08/19/mark-zuckerbergs-facebook-page-was-hacked-by-an-unemployed-web-developer/
======
chrisacky
Although this is blogspam, it's a blogspam that I can actually support...
This is being covered a lot more widely because FB didn't just pay the guy. I
know it wasn't about money for FB, but this is easily done a lot more damage
then they would have expected and because of their inadequate handling of a
single bug report, I can only feel satisfied as I think this will go down as a
good case study of how not to be so dismissive with critical bugs.
(I still think they should pay the guy, and it should be double the $5k he
would have expected to receive).
~~~
short_circut
Dismissive and ignored? Did you read what he submitted to them? It made no
sense. He vaguely stated that there was a bug and his education. His bug
report was nonsensical. I am not even slightly surprised they ignored it. And
he violated the TOS before he even ever tried to post to Zuckerberg's wall.
~~~
efuquen
Having dealt with fellow developers that don't have perfect english or thick
accents I think it's quite unprofessional to dismiss someone's complaint
without even trying to understand them. It's great for us native English
speakers that it's such a dominant language but I think we should all give a
little more respect for others where it's clearly not their first language and
they're the ones having to go out of their way to communicate with us. I for
one am glad I don't have to deal with the bilingualism, with a bit more
empathy and less dismissiveness the whole thing could have been avoided.
~~~
gedrap
I am not a native English speaker. Although I study in England (University of
Manchester), I believe half of my course mates are not native speakers either.
At least the ones who turn up to lectures. People try to explain their
algorithms, ideas in broken English with damn thick accents but they DO
explain. They put effort.
From what he managed to write in the blog post, he CAN write English which is
not THAT bad.
But this dude doesn't really bother. Hey Facebook, there's a bug. Wanna know
it? How about you... beg me to tell you?
I am quoting him: whatever , i dont care for miss spelling , just the idea , i
never correct an underline red word ;)
Did FB treat it properly? No. Did he act properly? Not either. But since it's
FB... THEY ARE EVIL!!!!111!
~~~
anigbrowl
You do make a good point, but at the same time I was easily able to understand
his original bug report. I agree that both sides should be making a little
more effort, and engaging in a bit less drama.
~~~
ceol
He didn't make a bug report. He didn't specify how he could post to other
peoples' walls. All he said was that he could, and that he already broke the
ToS by using it on another person's account. This was his original report:
-----Original Message to Facebook-----
From: kha****@hotmail.com
To:
Subject: post to facebook users wall .
Name: Ḱhalil
E-Mail: khal****@hotmail.com
Type: privacy
Scope: www
Description: dear facebook team .
my name is khalil shreateh.
i finished school with B.A degree in Infromation Systems .
i would like to report a bug in your main site
(www.facebook.com) which i discovered it .
repro:
the bug allow facebook users to share links to other
facebook users , i tested it on sarah.goodin wall and i
got success post
link - > https://www.facebook.com/10151857333098885
-----End Original Message to Facebook-----
From that, you surmised that he exploited the "make a new wall post" form by
replacing the user ID with another of his choosing?
~~~
mtrimpe
When you're working across cultural boundaries you realise that most problems
stem from an incorrect assumption.
In this case Khalil probably held the incorrect assumption that an actual
demonstration of the bug would be how Facebook would want this to be reported,
hence the lack of details.
It's not unreasonable for him to think Facebook would take a look at their
HTTP logs to find out what happened.
------
tptacek
Once again, with feeling:
Even if Facebook wanted to ignore the terms of their bug bounty to pay this
person, they probably can't. Bug bounties are legally fraught as it stands.
Like every bug bounty, Facebook's is clear: if you use a real account, _you
must have the consent of the accountholder_. That term isn't just there to
make the Facebook security team's job easier; they also can't officially
condone people compromising random user accounts.
Facebook also operates in a web of contractual and regulatory concerns,
including California's breach notification laws. Exploitation of security
vulnerabilities on Facebook's public properties outside of the terms of their
bug bounty might be legally more akin to attacks than to pro-bono testing.
Further, Facebook obviously needs the ability to reliably enforce their terms,
lest they provide attackers with ammunition in a court case if they, for
instance, Pastebin large amounts of Facebook user data. "Oh, I was just
participating in the bug bounty program; I certainly wasn't setting out to
sell $CELEBRITY's data to a tabloid."
Jim Denaro is an attorney specializing in stuff on this. We talked to him on
Twitter this weekend when the story broke, and he said he would have advised
against paying the bounty here too. Maybe we can get him to write a blog post.
I don't know how much "outrage" this has actually generated in the security
community (maybe you can find links). The security people I've talked to think
what happened makes perfect sense. Facebook didn't freak out, the acknowledged
the bug report (once they understood it) and fixed the bug. They're just not
paying a reward, because the bugfinder violated what is perhaps _the most
important term in the bug bounty_.
One more thing: people on HN have a lot of strong opinions about Facebook, and
while I don't share many of them, I understand and respect them. Understand
though that the people working on Facebook's security are real and very smart
and by and large not the least bit interested in screwing other bugfinders out
of 0.00000000001% of Facebook's operating capital.
~~~
falcolas
I understand your position in this, and after reading the full story, I even
agree... but I also know a few independent security researchers (i.e. people
who don't do this professionally) who do not.
They, rightfully or not, see an independent who was ignored and then
persecuted for trying to responsibly report a bug. It's given Facebook a black
eye to more than just the HN crowd, and people will probably be thinking twice
about disclosing security bugs, particularly if they get "working as intended"
as their initial response.
Also, consider the guidelines that go into developing a UI. The more
roadblocks you put in someone's way to register for your site, the fewer
people will register. Apply that to this, and the more roadblocks you put into
reporting a bug correctly (requesting special accounts, fighting to convince
staff that your bug is an actual issue), the fewer bug reports you're going to
get. That's not a good thing for Facebook in the long run.
~~~
tptacek
I don't see how you get from the facts of what happened to "persecution".
Could you go a little further into that?
~~~
falcolas
Disabling his Facebook account, and deciding not to pay Khalil Shreateh
(though the account was later re-enabled after further emails between himself
and Facebook).
------
arnarbi
> Shreateh reports he will not, however, receive a bounty for his work — per
> an e-mail from Facebook, he violated the terms of the program when he hacked
> Zuckerberg’s account.
I think this is wrong. He posted on Sarah Godin's wall first before making any
report, very clearly breaking the rules FB sets up for its whitehat program.
They offer a way to create test accounts for exactly this. Posting on Mark
Zuckerberg's wall has nothing to do with it.
As far as I'm concerned. FB's only mistake here was to brush him off instead
of asking for further information from the initial report. Hardly newsworthy.
~~~
bwang8
From my understanding, Sarah Godin is a fake FB account that he made to test
his bug out.
~~~
yuliyp
Sarah Goodin is not a fake account, she is one of the first Facebook users
(back when it was at Harvard only).
~~~
jamesjguthrie
How do you know that the post to her wall wasn't his initial discovery of the
bug? Any occurrence of the bug was a breach of the ToS.
~~~
ceol
Not between two test accounts or two accounts that belong to you (work and
personal, which you are allowed to have.)
------
jzelinskie
Why don't people just send things in their native language? If the platform
for communication is serious (like a place to report security
vulnerabilities), I would imagine they would spend the time/money to get a
real translation if one was needed. Even Google Translate probably could've
done a better job than this guy's original report.
~~~
cliveowen
There's no excuse for not knowing the English language, first as a 21 century
citizen and secondly as a web developer.
~~~
claudius
There’s no excuse for not knowing at least three out of English, Spanish,
French, Mandarin, Urdu, Arabic, Portuguese, Russian and German. If you’ve
finished university peeking at a fourth and fifth language can’t hurt either.
How many do you know?
Edit: Oh, and how about a bit of Latin and Greek, maybe?
~~~
cliveowen
I _do_ know English, Spanish and Italian and I'm doing my best learning
Portuguese but that doesn't mean we should encourage a world divided by
language barriers. I'd be happy to completely forget about every language,
including my own native language, and having English as a universal language,
it's called progress.
There's no advantage whatsoever in having a fragmented world, and if the mess
in my head is any indication the alleged advantages of bilingualism are just
BS.
~~~
claudius
While it would certainly be _convenient_ if everybody spoke the same language,
I don’t think it would be _better_ than the current state of affairs, where
most people know two to three languages more-or-less well.
After all, knowing more than one language does give you some different
insights, not just into the culture of the other language but also into your
own culture. Furthermore, there is a whole canon of classical works in
basically every language which would likely lose some of its value if it were
only accessible in the translated form.
We can add to the last point by taking note that English is a particularly bad
example of a ‘world-wide native language’. While its simplicity – both with
regards to its vocabulary and its grammar – certainly helps when it is the
_second_ language of someone, such concerns are of smaller importance when you
want it to be everyone’s first language: Such a language can come with a much
stronger set of grammatical rules and nicer ways to build composite words and
still be (roughly) equally accessible to its native speakers.
------
jack-r-abbit
I don't really understand what significance there is in stating that he is
"unemployed." Does that somehow make his actions better/worse or the "hack"
more/less tolerable?
~~~
beat
You're starting to see the fnords. Stop that! Look over there, a celebrity is
having marital problems! A pretty young blonde woman is missing!
Journalism is always fair and balanced. They would never, ever use potentially
biasing words to suggest that you favor the big corporation over the
individual.
~~~
quantumpotato_
I think it was done to give credence to the web-developers lack of
"corporatism", to show an "underdog" narrative. Sort of like "homeless man
discovers flaw in millionaire's mansion security".. he's so badass he doesn't
need a home, or a job, to be good at what he does.
I think. It's gotten nearly impossible to tell w/ modern journalism.
~~~
beat
"Unemployed" is _never_ a positive word in American English. In America, if
you're unemployed, it's because you're a lazy, shiftless bum - and will
quickly resort to crime if your own shortcomings won't let you scam a powerful
and scrupulously honest corporation.
The word "unemployed" has such negative connotations here that trying to use
it in an underdog narrative is dooming your story to failure.
------
diminoten
The Facebook team should have taken better care of this, but the guy should
have used one of the test accounts, or created a test account to demonstrate
this, rather than fuck with someone else's private Facebook account.
Very bad form.
~~~
JangoSteve
I agree. Why not create a test account and post to his own wall?
------
guard-of-terra
I think we should crowd-source $5k to that guy and make Zuck sure we don't
really need him for anything.
I'm ready to toss $10.
~~~
webvictim
You would prove nothing other than that crime pays.
~~~
gnaritas
Crime does pay, that's rather the point of crime, it doesn't really need
proving.
~~~
webvictim
In that case, crowdsourcing a way to pay this guy $5k for the vulnerability he
found and abused would be counterintuitive.
~~~
walid
WOW WOW you say "abused"... strong language there. He was trying to show the
bug to them. This guy looks like he never read the TOS in the first place so
he wasn't going after abusing. He didn't communicate properly is the way I
would put it.
------
nthitz
Plenty more discussion here:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6229858](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6229858)
------
joshaidan
I find it interesting the amount of attention Hacker News is getting from this
in mainstream media.
It makes me wonder, when people unfamiliar to Hacker News read about it in
stories like this, do they get the wrong impression and think Hacker News is
about the criminal kind of "hacking"?
~~~
beat
The mainstream media spent twenty years trying to turn the word "hacker" into
some sort of unholy cross between thief, terrorist, child pornographer, and
teenager. They'd _better_ be getting the sense that hacker == criminal by now!
~~~
ceol
Your replies in this thread have been piss poor, anti-corporation, anti-media,
hyperbolic shitposting. Please take it back to /r/technology.
~~~
beat
If the media hasn't consistently presented "hacker" as negative, why is it
seen as such? After all, everyone who actually _knows_ what hacking is a: sees
it as positive, and b: is irritated at the media presentation.
Facts is facts, man. Sorry if you don't like the snark, but I'm not sorry for
telling the truth.
~~~
ceol
It's the general public's opinion about "hacker", not just the media's.
Connotations change. Everyone here knows "hacker" to mean "someone who finds a
simple solution to a complex problem" but everyone _elsewhere_ uses "hacker"
to mean "someone who breaks into another person's computer system." It's not
even the wrong usage; it's just a usage you don't personally like.
That's not touching on the rest of your posts. They've all been hyperbolic
bullshit, and I hate seeing it bleed over from the political discussions.
------
baby
hasn't this story been posted multiple times already?
Also it was made clear that he clearly violated the TOS and that his messages
were unintelligible.
~~~
skeletonjelly
It most definitely has. I'm so over arguing over this.
Previous discussion
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6229858](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6229858)
+383
and about 10 other single digit posts of various blogspam sites
[https://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/submissions&q=facebo...](https://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/submissions&q=facebook&sortby=create_ts+desc&start=0)
and reddit
[http://www.reddit.com/r/sysadmin/comments/1kkvfr/user_report...](http://www.reddit.com/r/sysadmin/comments/1kkvfr/user_reports_security_bug_to_facebook_after_user/)
+329
[http://www.reddit.com/r/netsec/comments/1kkvei/user_reports_...](http://www.reddit.com/r/netsec/comments/1kkvei/user_reports_security_bug_to_facebook_after_user/)
+532
[http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/1ko71v/researche...](http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/1ko71v/researcher_facebook_ignored_the_bug_i_found_until/)
+831
[http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/1kkoux/hacker_po...](http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/1kkoux/hacker_posts_facebook_bug_report_on_zuckerbergs/)
+3005
Can we wrap this one up perhaps?
------
bloaf
Its simple, Facebook can't set the precedent that people who exploit bugs in
this way get paid. If they did, every Joe who felt that their particular bug
wasn't being addressed quite right would think that public exploitation is the
faster route to their reward.
~~~
rmc
Conversely, they might be setting the opposite precendent, that they might
ignore your intial email if you don't speak perfectly, and if they ignore your
initial email, even hacking Zuck's account won't get you any offical
recognition.
The bad precendent is that if you're not a great english speaker, you might as
well sell your bug on the black market. This is not good for facebook.
------
callesgg
What is wrong with journalists now days. Reading on hacker news and copy
pasting stuff in to articles is not what i would call good journalism.
It would be nice if people could stop reposting shit from "average joe" news
papers.
------
lcusack
It would be a class act if Mark Z personally paid him the bounty or maybe if
FB employees crowdfunded it.
Then they don't have to admit they were wrong and don't look like jerks. Best
of both worlds.
------
adsr
This seems like a lack of communication skills on both parts imho, why would
you respond: "this is not a bug" to a bug report you did not understand.
------
codex_irl
poor show FB - thumbs down!
------
enterx
lol, you ad serving pricks! XD
Will someone send this Khalil Shreateh a brand new quad-core? TIA
Khalil Shreateh - respect. Let your name be indexed once more.
------
shortcj
Facebook is a top tier company; they don't pay people attention, much less
real money, without a track record of like Harvard or Stanford already.
~~~
shortstuffsushi
I really don't think that's an fair allegation to just throw out there. Care
to back that up with some evidence?
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Goby: Develop iOS apps with ClojureScript - hellofunk
https://github.com/mfikes/goby
======
tblomseth
Please note that the creator, @mfikes, as stated at the end of the readme has
moved on to using React Native with ClojureScript + Om.
I can attest to how his Ambly REPL in that mix is a winning combination having
used it since this past summer. Being able to reload transpiled CLJS code and
manipulate the state of a running iOS app is nothing short of awesome.
------
hellofunk
This part is particularly impressive, considering the very high level style
that Clojurescript brings to any project:
[https://github.com/mfikes/goby#performance](https://github.com/mfikes/goby#performance)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Google pulls gender pronouns from Gmail Smart Compose to reduce bias - Pharmakon
https://www.engadget.com/2018/11/27/google-removes-gender-from-gmail-smart-compose/
======
jakelazaroff
There's another discussion here, albeit with a more sensationalist article
(which seems to be the original source):
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18542635](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18542635)
------
Raphmedia
What a clickbait article. Reading the title alone gives the impression that
this is a change to appease the LGBT community or after receiving some similar
pressure.
All that happened is that the strings are hardcoded so they removed pronouns
because they don't want to go though your entire email history to find out the
person's gender.
That's something that everyone do at some point when programming systems. You
remove plurals and pronouns so that you do not have to manage them.
Using gender neutral pronoun when writing about people whose gender you do not
know is simply being polite.
I wouldn't want Google to show me autocomplete suggestions for "do you want to
meet him" when I'm writing an email to my mom or my girlfriend.
~~~
gnicholas
> _All that happened is that the strings are hardcoded so they removed
> pronouns because they don 't want to go though your entire email history to
> find out the person's gender._
This gives the impression that they'll never use a gendered pronoun. I assumed
from reading the article that they're leaving off gender in cases where it
isn't known. But in some cases it would be very known ("do you want to meet
him?" / "yes, I'd love to meet him."). Are they really not going to include it
even where it has been specifically referenced in the prior email?
~~~
Raphmedia
My understanding is that they will show pronouns when it's clear. The system
might repeat the last one you used or something like that. So if your entire
email is about a woman the feature might suggest "her".
The article seems to say that they are mainly removing the pronoun after
titles. E.g. a secretary always being "her" but a CEO always being "him".
According to the Reuters article:
"Gmail product manager Paul Lambert said a company research scientist
discovered the problem in January when he typed “I am meeting an investor next
week,” and Smart Compose suggested a possible follow-up question: “Do you want
to meet him?” instead of “her.”"
The same article claims:
"The gendered pronoun ban affects fewer than 1 percent of cases where Smart
Compose would propose something, Lambert said."
So that's really a clickbait article based on a non-issue.
[https://www.reuters.com/article/us-alphabet-google-ai-
gender...](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-alphabet-google-ai-
gender/fearful-of-bias-google-blocks-gender-based-pronouns-from-new-ai-tool-
idUSKCN1NW0EF)
------
lostlogin
> When a scientist talked about meeting an investor in January, for example,
> Gmail offered the follow-up "do you want to meet him" \-- not considering
> the possibility that the investor could be a woman.
So the option was to remove the gendered pronouns or change the product name
to “Google Compose”. I get there there are other arguments for removing
gendered pronouns, but is working out the gender from past communications
beyond Google? What am I missing?
~~~
jkaplowitz
Presumably they'd get it right some of the time but the exceptions would be
common enough and rather impactful.
Example scenario: "Hey, I have an investor you should meet. Does next Tuesday
at 11am work?"
Problematic response if the unspecified investor isn't a man: "Yes. It'll be
great to meet him."
Good alternative: "Yes, that sounds great. Looking forward to the meeting."
Another good alternative: "Yes. It'll be great to meet them."
~~~
lostlogin
We had a visit from an individual and the rider of their email politely asked
for them to be referred to in gender neutral terms. This was done by all but
it’s very hard when you are not used to it.
~~~
jkaplowitz
Agreed it's hard to retrain one's brain. I have now had multiple non-binary
colleagues and I still occasionally slip up despite a lot of practice. Most of
the time I do get it right now.
They can tell I'm making an effort in general, and I generally self-correct
right after saying the wrong pronoun, so (as they've confirmed to me) no
offense results from the mistakes. The offense happens when people don't
genuinely try.
Nobody's trying to make it a gotcha game, and I'm sure the person appreciated
your attempts to respect their wishes, whether or not any mistakes were made!
It will become more natural with more practice.
~~~
coolso
Agreed, and this is exactly what I tell people who sometimes forget to compose
their emails to me in 12pt Comic Sans font like my email rider requests.
------
detcader
What is the purpose of specific, separate pronouns in speech to begin with?
It's clear they arose in languages hundreds or thousands of years before any
current understandings or politics of how and when they are "supposed" to be
used.
I do have some ideas why but I don't think it's relevant to bring them up
outright, I just think the question should be pondered on.
~~~
wrs
In many Latin languages _all nouns_ have genders, which surely never made
sense, but here we are thousands of years later.
French speakers: is there some process under way to address this? Given that
the word “doctor” itself is masculine, is that inherent bias disturbing to
people?
~~~
kinghajj
Grammatical gender is an unfortunately-named construct that has little to do
with sociological gender. The main connection is that _most_ common words have
grammatical genders matching their sociological one ("der Vater," "die
Mutter"), but even that doesn't hold very well ("das Mädchen"). There's an
interesting theory that grammatical gender helps reduce ambiguity, because the
inflections of surrounding words make it clearer which roots they modify.
~~~
wrs
Sure, it’s not literally that objects have a gender, and it is an extra bit of
redundant information that probably helps with intelligibility. But even
though “he” is the generic first person pronoun in English and doesn’t
literally mean a male person when used that way, you can’t avoid the
connotations, which is where the controversy arises.
I’m imagining a similar effect with noun genders — they aren’t called “noun
type A” and “noun type B”, they are known as masculine and feminine, and
things that literally are masculine and feminine can use the same mechanism.
E.g., a generic dog in French is masculine (le chien), but if I want to
communicate that I have a female dog it’s acceptable to make up a feminine
form (la chienne). Thus, noun genders are not quite arbitrary; they can be
used to communicate actual genders, so do they not have some small connotation
at all times?
~~~
gizmo686
Linguists do refer to "gender" as "noun class". In languages where noun
classes happen to align with gender, reffering to them as gender has stuck
around.
It is true that noun classes tend to make a gender distinction, so there is
likely something innate in human language about that.
------
superfamicom
I would love if I had the option to alway use "'em"\- it has always felt much
less formal than "them" without upsetting folks on either side of the pronoun
"debate". The world eventually caved on "ain't", so I propose this as a
solution. Your probability of being correct with "'em" is near 100%.
~~~
jaclaz
Just in case, xe, xem, xyr:
[https://jdebp.eu/FGA/sex-neutral-pronouns.html](https://jdebp.eu/FGA/sex-
neutral-pronouns.html)
as possible betterings to "Spivak" pronouns (of which you are proposing the
"Tintajl" version):
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spivak_pronoun](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spivak_pronoun)
------
rjplatte
Normally, "fixing" ML systems to "Remove Bias" seems like a pointless exercise
(e.g. hiring algorithms that somehow still pick more male candidates in a
gender-blind test, when 75% of applicants are male), but here it's done
correctly.
~~~
ajoy39
It obviously depends on the algorithm but if you train your hiring algorithm
based on past hires, and your company has predominantly hired males in the
past, your going to end up preselecting males. algorithms aren't bias in
themselves but if you want to avoid biased results you have to be very careful
on the data sets you use to train them with.
~~~
rjplatte
That's why you scrub gender data, and it's still biased. the fact that more
men work, period, means that it will always be biased based on that fact.
~~~
ajoy39
unless you make a conscious effort to select your dataset to avoid that bias
sure. You don't have to give the algorithm ALL of your hiring data. Balance
the data you train it on to avoid the bias.
------
thrower123
I'll admit, I don't use this feature, so I'm not sure exactly how it works. Is
it firing off a reply directly, or is it prepopulating the reply email, which
you can then edit as appropriate? The latter strikes me as how this ought to
work.
~~~
plorkyeran
It prepopulates an email which you then edit (but there's nothing indicating
such in the UI, so a lot of people are naturally scared to even touch the
buttons).
------
_red
How is it reducing bias?
~~~
modwilliam
From the article:
When a scientist talked about meeting an investor in January, for example,
Gmail offered the follow-up "do you want to meet him" \-- not considering the
possibility that the investor could be a woman.
The problem is a typical one with natural language generation systems like
Google's: it's based on huge volumes of historical data. As certain fields
tend to be dominated by people from one gender, the AI can sometimes assume
that a person belongs to that gender.
~~~
vorticalbox
Then isn't that a fair assumption for an AI or any one to make?
If you're offended by how a computer looked at statistics and came to a likely
conclusion, it's probally time take a step back and have a good think about
why you're even offended.
~~~
jkaplowitz
If the AI is telling you, "based on the statistics in the field, the odds of
this person being a woman, a man, or a non-binary gender are X%, Y%, and Z%
respectively," I agree there's no reason for offense.
But if the AI has no information about the email recipient's individual
gender, it's much safer for the AI to use the default pronoun (singular they)
that English already has where we don't want to assume the gender of a
particular person, or else for it to avoid the use of a pronoun.
If a person who is not a man works in a male-dominated field and gets
mislabeled as a man, it just makes them feel out of place and unwelcome.
Doubly so if the AI-generated words are attributed to an individual colleague
who knows their actual gender but doesn't fully edit the suggestion before
sending.
~~~
vorticalbox
Except this isn't a person walking into a place and being mislabeled by
another person.
it's a computer that has zero concept of gender.
I don't think that being mistake for a different sex is even cause to be
offended.
That person doesn't know and can only go only by what they have seen before.
~~~
jkaplowitz
The mistake is being attributed to a human email sender as perceived by the
email recipient, not to an AI, since it's an email suggestion. Many such email
senders will know the recipient's gender better than the AI, and the recipient
will know that.
As for your broader doubt that misgendering leads to offense, that's a longer
conversation than I can shoehorn into this thread today, but the Geek Feminism
wiki is one of several good places to which you can turn to start learning
about that topic if you want to.
I'm a cisgender man myself, but I have heard enough personal stories from
friends who aren't to know that misgendering can and often does offend.
------
thoughtexplorer
It makes sense to base things on probabilities, but it also makes sense to
play it safe in some cases.
The upside of it predicting him/her is minor and doesn't outweigh the times
that it gets it wrong.
"Do you want to meet [name || them]" or simply "Do you want to meet" works
well enough usually.
------
Someone1234
What's interesting is that English doesn't have a great slot in for gendered
pronouns. If we take the example from this article:
\- "Do you want to meet him?"
There's no genderless slot in for him/her. If you say "them" that infers
multiple or an unknown party. You could use their name (e.g. "Do you want to
meet Jim?") but that requires information that their system may not have.
Is there a singular genderless pronoun that would fit in there? Do other
languages have a similar limitation?
~~~
lostlogin
The persons name works quite well.
~~~
vorticalbox
And if you don't have a person's name?
The AIs only option in English is to go for him/her.
~~~
lostlogin
Would you often know their gender but not their name? Additionally, if you had
the person in front of you and couldn’t tell their gender, would you go 50/50?
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: Have you ever “lost” a clever bit of code you weren't able to reproduce? - jarcane
Discussing with a friend on Twitter I was reminded that as a lad I once wrote an AI routine for haggling with a shop owner in an RPG that remains probably the best implementation I've seen.<p>Unfortunately, my brother then proceeded to power-cycle the drive with the disk still in, corrupting the file ... I was never able to reproduce the code because I couldn't remember exactly how I'd done it once I saved it.<p>Have you ever done something like this?
======
mchannon
Often I've lost code not permanently but came across it months or years later
after I thought I'd lost it.
More often than not, it turned out that the code wasn't clever so much as I
had remembered it being clever. The code itself often didn't even do what I
thought it had.
------
pjungwir
When I was a kid I wrote an ascii-art dungeon exploration game in BASIC on our
Tandy 1000. I worked on it for months, maybe even a couple years, adding and
adding. One day the floppy it was on failed.
I actually did rewrite it, and I remember noticing how much better the code
was. I didn't have to think about game design at all, just about the code. In
fact it was around that time that I finally understood what GOSUB was for. I
wouldn't be surprised if it was that rewrite that brought the realization.
------
rprospero
Not as much clever as infuriating, but I once had a bit of C++ code that would
run perfectly fine, unless you deleted one of the comments, at which point it
wouldn't compile. I lost the file in a hard drive failure many moon ago.
Mostly, I wish that I still had it simply to prove that the compiler really
was that buggy.
------
yen223
I once wrote an AI that solves the Sliding Block puzzle:
[https://itunes.apple.com/en/app/unblock-me-
free/id315019111?...](https://itunes.apple.com/en/app/unblock-me-
free/id315019111?mt=8)
The code is still in my PC, but I moved overseas, and didn't bring my PC
along.
------
divs1210
Once, when I was pretty much a noob, wrote a language called OOJASIC which I
implemented in Java. It was loosely typed, compiled to Java. I wrote a wrapper
over swing as its UI library, and a simplistic visual IDE along the lines of
BlueJ, that would show a smiling dino face if the file was compiled, and an
anxious one if it wasn't.
All that's left of all this is the compiler code (decompiled using cavaj), and
screenshots of the IDE (that I called Rex).
It was the most complicated piece of software I'd written at that point of
time, and there's little left to show for it.
Here's a link to the project page, btw. And don't judge. This is from a long,
long time ago.
[http://justaddhotwater.webs.com/oojasic.htm](http://justaddhotwater.webs.com/oojasic.htm)
~~~
divs1210
I would totally be able to reproduce it though, so it kind of misses the
point. I wouldn't be as dedicated probably.
------
informatimago
It happens. Usually, rewriting the code from scratch will produce a better
version.
------
andersthue
I once (while in university) had the awesome idea to write some fantastic code
after a night out.
Sadly I had to scrap the project the next day since it did'nt compile anymore
:)
~~~
jarcane
My father was the defacto Excel developer in his office and used to have vivid
dreams that consisted solely of him writing out the code for some problem he'd
been working on.
Then he'd wake up and forget the lot.
~~~
mc_hammer
this. the trick is when u cant remember to stop there, and dont worry or force
it, about 10 mins later the answer will come to u.
~~~
griff122
sadly, i use this same technique on the toilet.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
ASK HN:There are 3rd party application why not 4 or 5 or n party application. - niktrix
there are 3rd party application why not 4 or 5 or n party application.
======
mooism2
_The_ 1st party is the platform vendor. So, Microsoft for PCs, Apple for Macs
and iPhones, etc.
_The_ 2nd party is the customer, either you or the organisation you work for.
_A_ 3rd party is anyone else.
Choice of indefinite rather than definite article in the last case is
deliberate.
The terms come from law: most contracts are between two entities ("the first
party" and "the second party") and any other entities not party to the
agreement are referred to as "third parties".
~~~
JCB_K
This. Although, theoretically, if a 3rd party would start providing an API to
their app...
~~~
bodyjournal
apis ,
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Roll Your Own Synced iOS and Mac OS Diary Using Bash and Siri Shortcuts - nimvlaj30
https://github.com/luknuk/luknuk.github.io/blob/master/posts/2019-12-03_icloud-plaintext-journal.md
======
nimvlaj30
I am the author of the post. I hope it's clear what I'm trying to achieve here
(a plaintext file that can be contributed to from both terminal and iOS
Shortcuts).
Please let me know if you have any suggestions :)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Proposal: Monotonic Elapsed Time Measurements in Go - Zikes
https://github.com/golang/proposal/blob/master/design/12914-monotonic.md
======
jkn
This a pretty magical solution.
\- Backward compatible. No API change.
\- Naive, idiomatic and wrong use of the API automatically becomes naive,
idiomatic and correct: Existing code that was using wall-clock time will now
be using monotonic time when it should, and only when it should [1]
\- No change to the memory footprint on 64-bit systems
\- No change to the range of representable dates [2]
"No API change" means if for some reason it turns out to be a bad idea, they
can still revert it and stay backward compatible (though of course, the
documentation will mention how monotonic times are used to calculate better
time differences and that would no longer be true after a revert).
Very impressed with the extensive survey of existing code which didn't find a
single case where the change would cause an issue.
[1] Except when a user got out of their way to calculate a time difference in
a non-idiomatic way.
[2] The range is only restricted when monotonic time information is present,
which cannot sensibly be the case outside the restricted range.
------
knodi
Well written and an excellent in-depth break down of the problem and
solution(s). Would have expect nothing but excellence from Russ Cox.
------
gbrown_
First off, yay easy access to monotonic time! This is good.
Now whilst the author acknowledges Go can't rely on systems to smear leap
seconds it was hopelessly naive to think they could in the first place.
I hoped that the trend toward reliable, reset-free computer clocks would
continue and that Go programs could safely use the system wall clock to measure
elapsed times. I was wrong. Although Akamai, Amazon, and Microsoft use leap
smears now too, many systems still implement leap seconds by clock reset.
I'm not trying to make a dig at the author here it's just a topic that grinds
my gears so to speak. I hope others don't pick up this idea that you can make
assumptions about how the system clock will behave.
------
twic
> Go 1 compatibility keeps us from changing any of the types in the APIs
> mentioned above.
But apparently allows them to change the _semantics_ of those types. I am
somewhat dubious about this. The point of the substantial appendix is to
demonstrate that the change in semantics is safe in existing code, but it only
looks at a subset of existing code. It's still possible that someone out there
has made assumptions which will now be invalid, and their code will be broken
by this change.
~~~
kevhito
> someone out there has made assumptions which will now be invalid
I was thinking about this as well, but I think the key is that they guarantee
only the semantics that are _documented_. If you make assumptions beyond the
documentation, then no, of course they can't guarantee compatibility,
otherwise it would essentially forbid any changes whatsoever. Still, it is a
good thing the Go team takes the extra step to ensure that even changes that
fall inside their compatibility promise are _still_ vetted against a vast body
of real-world code, and to check that common (non-documented) assumptions
won't be violated if they can help it.
------
justinsb
I had hoped the underlying monotonic clock would have been exposed directly.
~~~
bcgraham
I was persuaded by the proposal. Do you still prefer directly exposing the
monotonic clock? If so, why?
~~~
justinsb
Simply that the proposal is complex and involves subtleties of behaviour, and
I worry that there may be further unexpected consequences found later (like
the equality surprises). I do think that the proposal nicely works around the
problem of back-compatibility for the APIs which were using a time.Time
instead of a time.Duration.
But: I expect that many of the uses of time.Now to measure elapsed time were
accompanied by a comment along the lines of "// TODO: use a monotonic clock
when go exposes it".
I see little harm in exposing `time.MonotonicNow` or similar, in addition to
these changes, particularly as this is what the original github issue
requested:
[https://github.com/golang/go/issues/12914](https://github.com/golang/go/issues/12914)
This could also be done at very low risk in the `golang.org/x` packages, and
the hypothesis that the go community does not understand monotonic clocks
could be tested, by looking at the rate of adoption.
~~~
rspeer
> But: I expect that many of the uses of time.Now to measure elapsed time were
> accompanied by a comment along the lines of "// TODO: use a monotonic clock
> when go exposes it".
You may be too optimistic. I think most developers haven't heard about
monotonic clocks.
Cox describes this in his proposal: "Providing two APIs makes it very easy
(and likely) for a developer to write programs that fail only rarely, but
typically all at the same time."
------
twic
> The wall clock is for telling time; the monotonic clock is for measuring
> time.
Spot on! But it's not as if they're unrelated - there is a deterministic
formula for converting monotonic clock time to wall clock time, taking into
account everything from leap seconds, via the calendar, to leap years.
The problem is that today's systems conflate the two kinds of time. The
proposed solution here is to treat them as completely separate, which seems to
me almost as great a mistake as treating them as the same.
What i'd like to see is:
1\. Computers keep time using a monotonic clock, based on TAI [1].
2\. When the local clock drifts from a master clock, it is corrected by
slewing, ie making the local clock run slightly faster or slower for a while
until it is back in sync with the master clock (as NTPD does now).
3\. Computers keep track of the times of leap seconds, obtained via NTP or the
tz file or whatever.
4\. To convert from a TAI time to a wall clock time, the time is first
converted to UTC by applying the leap seconds, and then converted to a human-
readable date using the calendar.
Essentially, i want to move the handling of leap seconds from the clock to the
formatting. If you can do this, the whole question of the impact of leap
seconds on time measurement goes away.
It's still not perfect, because although the clock is monotonic, it doesn't
always run at the most accurate possible rate: during slewing, it is
deliberately deviated from this. You could solve this with another layer of
indirection: run the clock at the best estimate of the true rate, and then
keep track of drift over time, so that when converting to a wall clock time,
you first apply drift correction, then leap seconds, then the calendar.
Essentially, you're formally recognising the separate existence of local and
global clocks.
You could potentially even change the drift correction retrospectively, so
that a given local time would map to different wall clock times at different
computation times. That starts to get pretty weird, though.
[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Atomic_Time](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Atomic_Time)
~~~
kevhito
> there is a deterministic formula for converting monotonic clock time to wall
> clock time
I think "deterministic" is not really right here, since you can only convert
monotonic times in the past, not the future, and only after you have been
given the (completely arbitrary) leap second data. If you call that
"deterministic", then what isn't?
> The proposed solution here is to treat them as completely separate
Did you read the proposal? Because the Go folks are essentially trying to
present a single, unified API for both, whereas lots of comments here on HN
are suggesting the separate-API approach instead. Also, the Go folks
specifically call out Google's efforts to eliminate the leap second problem
from their systems and how/why it hasn't caught on outside of the big players.
Can you compare your proposal to Google's time handling solution? Does it
suffer the same problems mentioned in the the post?
~~~
twic
> I think "deterministic" is not really right here, since you can only convert
> monotonic times in the past, not the future, and only after you have been
> given the (completely arbitrary) leap second data. If you call that
> "deterministic", then what isn't?
You're right that the "deterministic" formula doesn't extend all the way into
the future. If you believe Wikipedia [1], then leap seconds are added at two
points in the year, and we've always had about six months' warning, so there's
a window of about six to twelve months ahead where all the leap seconds are
known. I don't think it's useful to get into what "deterministic" means, but
you're quite right that you can't reliably convert monotonic times to human
times, or vice versa, beyond that window. I'm not sure how much that matters.
> Did you read the proposal?
You're not supposed to ask that! But yes, i did.
> Because the Go folks are essentially trying to present a single, unified API
> for both, whereas lots of comments here on HN are suggesting the separate-
> API approach instead.
No, they are presenting a single type which conceals both kinds of time. This
will lead to surprising behaviour if you ever rely on both kinds. For example:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13574235](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13574235)
[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leap_second#Insertion_of_leap_...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leap_second#Insertion_of_leap_seconds)
------
dolzenko
The only downside would be time.Time structures grow by 8 bytes, but this is
really minor because if you're storing times you're likely storing timestamps
and not time.Time structures.
~~~
leaveyou
Actually, it only grows with 4 bytes on the 32 bit systems (no growth on the
64 bit). It's right there in the doc:
>On 64-bit systems, there is a 32-bit padding gap between nsec and loc in the
current representation, which the new representation fills, keeping the
overall struct size at 24 bytes. On 32-bit systems, there is no such gap, and
the overall struct size grows from 16 to 20 bytes.
------
ex3ndr
Why not to learn from java (android) and make simple function like
"time.UptimeMillis" that will return elapsed time from system boot?
~~~
bradfitz
The linked document addresses this.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: How do you communicate the gravity of tech debt to a new team? - Gabriel_Martin
When joining a new team, upon finding loads of tech debt left by past developers, which nontechnical members of the company's leadership are not aware of, what methods have you used to convey the scale of the issue (For example, code that is deeply flawed in many ways, like 1600 line templates with many inline jquery scripts and further dozens of links of un-minified script calls to 500+ line Jquery scripts, not to mention, no build system for the frontend, and seems about 15 years behind current conventions and best practices)?
======
kaazhan
I have the exact same problem, i'm pretty curious about what solution will be
proposed.
From my experience it is really case dependant. I went throught several
"legacy" codebases, and everything depends on the willingness of change in the
company. I think my 3 last experiences are revelant of different situations :
1 - Peoples want to change A few years ago I went to a company with some code
from 5+years, with poor quality. It was quite easy to explain peoples we were
facing troubles maintaining the codebase in descent state, since it was a
small company with people involved in dev process/ selling the product.
2 - Clueless people After that i moved to a company with terrible codebase. I
put everything on git and set a dev environment on my first week. It was in
2017. The legacy was unmaintainable, and by speaking with the ceo/cto, we
managed to explain the risks for the company. It took month, but they
understood the urge of refactoring, rewriting, etc. They just were not able to
find a solution by themselves and our help to rationalise the problem and find
effective solution was sufficent to give them understanding of the problem and
willingness on moving forward.
3 - Conservative peoples I moved a few month ago in a really conservative
company with totaly insane codebase. For the moment I have no clue on what to
do to make people understand at what point the code is in a sinistred state.
Tech people understand it but not the rest of the company. Company is
economicaly wealthy and it's really hard to make people understand that it
does hide terrible technical reality.
I personally think the most important point are : \- Explain to your boss what
are the most dangerous problems (unencrypted passwords in DB, that kind of
things) \- Explain what is tech debt \- Explain that current techs are
solutions to those problems \- Speak about the costs
Everything is easier if you are in a small company, wether ir not peoples
around you does have thech background or not. It's easier too if you can prove
what you're saying: with examples of dangerous things understandable by non
tech people, and with POC. For the moment i just does not figure out how to
push the need of purging tech debt when company is wealthy. People feel that
everything goes well and you're just too much of a geek/perfectionnist
------
borplk
Try to find a way so that you don't have to communicate the gravity of it. For
example start fixing it slowly and quietly.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Bazil – a file system that lets data reside where it is most convenient - Flenser
http://bazil.org
======
kolev
Source Code:
[https://github.com/bazillion/bazil](https://github.com/bazillion/bazil)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
HMD’s revived Nokia 3310 classic mobile gets 3G - lnguyen
https://techcrunch.com/2017/09/28/hmds-revived-nokia-3310-classic-mobile-gets-3g/
======
digi_owl
Put a simple wifi hotspot in there, and i would be really interested. Except
that where i live they plan to phase out 3G but retain 2G, because the market
has almost completely moved to 4G/LTE except for simple remote sensors and
such that are operated over 2G text messaging.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
New AI fake text generator may be too dangerous to release, say creators - longdefeat
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/feb/14/elon-musk-backed-ai-writes-convincing-news-fiction
======
Deimorz
Duplicate/blogspam of
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19163522](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19163522)
------
anotheryou
I wonder how many military or secret service R+D departments get funded in the
next months based on this article
------
craftinator
I wish journalists would at least try to understand how a technology works
before working about it.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Seven reasons why I'm not buying a Chromebook. - eroded
http://dmurray.org/7-reasons-why-im-not-buying-a-chromebook
======
wanderr
They should really call it a "mombook" because it's ideal for parents or
grandparents who just want to get on the internet and have a computer that
just works and is simple. Imagine setting your family up with these and never
getting tech support callsanymore.
------
zoowar
Regarding #5, ChromeOS is open source unlike OSX which is running on your
macbook air. Both companies are motivated to collect information about you.
The difference is that with ChromeOS you or someone else can identify when and
how information is collected by reviewing the sourced code. With OSX, only
Apple knows when and how. What they do with this information is a different
answer.
------
phlux
_1\. I need way more than just a browser. Y’know, little things like a mail
client, terminal, vim, ssh, Skype, Spotify, etc._
This doesnt need to replace your more robust system.
_2\. I have a Macbook Air._
See Above, but I dont have a macbook air. Many people dont. Many people can
afford 20/month rather than the inflated price of the Air. (Dont argue with
that, all Apple products are inflated in price - how else you think they are
making so much damn money)
_3\. It doesn't cost me anything._
This doesnt work for everyone.
_4\. If I wanted a netbook, I’d buy a netbook. Why not just run Chrome inside
Ubuntu? Chromebook’s expensive in comparison._
I have (5) desktops, (4) laptops, (1) netbook, (2) smartphones and I still
want one of these.
_5\. So Google can’t spy on me. Perhaps I’m paranoid. but the Chromebook
could hoard huge amounts of usage data. I’d rather not give them the
opportunity._
I agree with this, yet they spy on you already -- I assume you use google? I
assume you have a GMail account?
We need a solution to that problem, avoiding the chromebook won't mitigate
their spying.
_6\. WiFi is everywhere I’d want to work. I don’t care for the built-in 3G
data. If I’m on the move - that’s why my smartphone's [sic] for._
3G actually sucks - esp. compared to 4G. But wifi is not everywhere I go - its
basically never available in transit.
_7\. It’s solving a problem that doesn’t exist. I’ve never heard anyone wish
they only had a browser. Not even my Mum._
I have wanted a browser only device for years. The iPad did exactly what you
say there is no problem/market for.
Hell - I would buy one of these for my grandma _only_ for IM being always open
on the countertop.
I think the writer of this article is too techie for his own good.
There are lots of reasons why _HE_ shouldn't buy a chromebook - but there are
far more reasons why others should, and will.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Show HN: HN Digest - mobilekid7
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=tech.hn.digest
======
mobilekid7
Hello HNers! This is my first post and I'd like to share a little HN reader
app I created for the community. HN has been my main source of tech news and
the place to go when I need some inspiration for quite some time now. What
I've found particularly interesting about the HN community is the wealth of
information and interesting perspectives in the comments of the various
stories. Often when I read a great story, I find myself coming back to the
portal searching for it and going through the comments section once again,
just to refresh them in my head. This was the motivation for creating HN
Digest. I wanted to be able to save stories and comments with tags, so I can
find them more easily later. V1 of the app does just that. I'll be adding more
features to it so please give me feedback as to what you'd like to see in the
app. Thank you! PS: I'm aware there is already quite a few HN apps out there
but none seems to support saving stories and comments with tags.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Large Scale NoSQL Database Migration Under Fire - kawera
https://medium.com/appsflyer/large-scale-nosql-database-migration-under-fire-bf298c3c2e47
======
SuddsMcDuff
We've taken a very similar approach when migrating data from one DB to another
(MySql to Redis in our case, but the principle should apply to any databases).
We split it into 4 phases:
* Off - Data written only to MySql (starting state)
* Secondary - Data written to both MySql and Redis, and MySql shall be the source of truth.
* Primary - Data written to both MySql and Redis, and Redis shall be the source of truth.
* Exclusive - Data written exclusively to Redis.
As mentioned in the article, the _Secondary_ phase allowed some time for the
new database to be populated. And the distinction between _Primary_ and
_Secondary_ phases gave us a rollback option if something went wrong.
~~~
nimrody
The difficulty here is what happens when one of the databases is not available
temporarily (network error, etc.) You cannot have a "transaction" cover writes
to both systems so you either have to manually undo one of the writes or risk
the two systems getting out of sync.
~~~
toomuchtodo
This is typically solved (in my experience) using a reconciliation process
using transaction GUIDs along with backfill from non-source of truth in the
event the data isn't found in the source of truth. As long as a transaction
made it into one of your data stores, consistency isn't lost (and if writes
failed to both data stores, alarms should go off).
------
aynsof
Interesting write-up. I'd love to see stats on how the new database is
performing. Have they reduced it from running on 45 4xlarge instances? Do
backups still take a day? Was it a good financial decision?
~~~
barkanido
Financially it was a good decision. The current cluster is a lot less than the
original one, and traffic + data have grown since. we currently maintain 2
clusters of 5 i3.4xlarge machines. That's a total of 10 machines and is a lot
cheaper of what we had before. The DB is performing great. It is flash based
and 99.98% of the queries have <1ms latency. Each XDR end holds around 3.1B
records, with a replication factor of 2. midterm load is around 3 (very low)
and we are doing around 190K reads p/s plus 37K write p/s at pick load.
------
seanwilson
> The following post describes how we migrated a large NoSql database from one
> vendor to another in production without any downtime or data loss.
Are there any good write-ups where a migration went really wrong and how it
was fixed?
------
manigandham
Or... they could just run this entire thing using ScyllaDB on a single mid-
size VM with local SSDs with headroom to spare. Put 1 in each DC for
active/active replication. No enterprise contract needed.
~~~
barkanido
ScyllaDB was actually too late to enter our POC (we had a somewhat tight
schedule for migration) but it was a valid candidate nevertheless.
------
redwood
Would be interested in learning about why they chose the technology they did:
was the use case requiring ultra low latency lookups?
~~~
barkanido
Yes. Low latency lookups are q requirement. Saying that, even double the
latency we have now would be okay. More important then latency was actually
throughput and high availability. And this was demonstrated by Aeropsike well.
------
danbruc
_~2000 write IOPS
~180000 read IOPS_
What are those IOPS in this case? Queries? Transactions? Disk block accesses?
~~~
drodgers
I'm pretty sure they mean operations on the block storage layer (EBS) as
reported by AWS CloudWatch monitoring.
It's a standard measure:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IOPS](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IOPS)
~~~
danbruc
That is why I asked, I am only aware of the use of IOPS in connection with
disk I/O and it seems a rather unusual measure for a database where caches
hopefully avoid hitting the disk too often, at least for reads. And writing 8
MiB/s assuming 4k clusters seems not really noteworthy especially given three
fold redundancy. On the other hand reading 700 MiB/s per second which would
also not be affected by the redundancy seems a comparatively big number
especially because caches should limit the disk traffic to a small fraction.
~~~
z3t4
Databases usually don't use caches. It's cheaper to just ask the file-system
for the data.
~~~
danbruc
This is not true at all, bordering to utter nonsense. Databases try hard to
keep the correct set of blocks in memory because that is essential for their
performance. Heck, many of the fastest database systems advertise themselves
as in-memory databases avoiding disks altogether.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: What websites do you frequent? - buckwild
The title says it all: "What websites do you guys like to frequent?" When I ask this I mean websites similar to HN, reddit, etc..<p>Please don't say google, twitter, or facebook. haha.
======
pclark
Hacker News, oddly enough.
------
yan
Google Reader
~~~
mdavis
Favorite feeds?
~~~
yan
I share some posts here: <http://www.google.com/reader/shared/rottled>
It's not strictly tech related and I tend to share the non-tech items.
edit: I just dumped the xml file of my feeds and extracted all the titles.
Here they all are, in their disorganized glory: "IBM developerWorks",
"SlickDeals.net", "developerWorks : Featured content", "Scene 360 Illusion",
"we make money not art", "Wooster Collective", "Schneier on Security",
"SecGuru -", "Theory to Practice", "Hack a Day", "Cocoa with Love",
"Consumerist", "Eli Bendersky's website", "Joel on Software", "Overcoming
Bias", "Paul Graham: Essays", "Philip Greenspun's Weblog", "The Frontal
Cortex", "The Internet Food Association", "The Simple Dollar", "Unclutterer",
"Climbing Narcissist", "NYT > Rock Climbing", "Online Climbing Coach", "RSS -
Hot Flashes Climbing News", "Hoefler & Frere-Jones", "Nice Web Type",
"SpiekerBlog (en)", "TypeNeu", "Code & form", "Processing Blogs", "Modern
Forager", "Falkenblog",
------
paulgb
I lurk at <http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/>
------
babyboy808
Stack Overflow
------
billswift
HN, OvercomingBias.com, LessWrong.com, Bruce Schneier's blog
(schneier.com/blog/), Megan McArdles's blog
(<http://meganmcardle.theatlantic.com/>), Steve Sailer (isteve.blogspot.com),
and I probably spend as much time browsing Amazon and reading reviews there as
any one of the others. I spend less time at (only because they write less)
Freedom-to-Tinker.com, Armed and Dangerous (<http://esr.ibiblio.org/>), One
Small Voice (Peter Saint-Andre, <https://stpeter.im/>), and
DavidDFriedman.blogspot.com.
------
blasdel
<http://metafilter.com>
------
reg4c
Slashdot Ars Technica
although I don't comment a lot, or at all but do read many articles
------
fossguy
Quite a few:
<http://slashdot.org>
<http://serverfault.com>
<http://securityfocus.com>
<http://sucuri.net>
<http://matasano.com/log> (well, while it was up and I hope it comes back)..
<http://taosecurity.blogspot.com>
<http://linux.com>
------
huhtenberg
<http://typophile.com>
<http://trendir.com>
<http://cardobserver.com>
<http://minimalsites.com>
and the usual bunch - slashdot, engadget, ars technica
------
shorbaji
nytimes.com/technology roughtype.com gigaom.com
------
blender
serverfault.com
------
jacquesm
guardian, bbc news, HN, /. (but mostly lurking these days), google news, nu.nl
------
mmc
another vote for lambda-the-ultimate.org gpgpu.org insideHPC.com
------
bmelton
My favorites folder (which is a folder in Chrome that I 'open all in tabs'
with each morning) includes the following URLS, which makes them at least
daily reads:
news.ycombinator.com damninteresting.com (now that they're back especially)
kk.org/kk/ - Kevin Kelly's blog federalwasteland.blogspot.com -- hasn't been
updated in a long while. :-( asofterworld.com xkcd.com idsgn.org
------
nico
Streamy
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Offer HN: Get Equity in Our Startup If You Can Help Us Get Traction - mkinnan
Like any start-up, it can be tough to get any significant traction. So, we are offering equity to someone that might have the resources/connections to help us get forum owners to add their forum to Agalanche, a forum aggregator. The equity is front loaded and tapers off as more forums are added to Agalanche. There are already 7 forums on Agalanche, so 93 more to go to reach 1.0% equity.<p>The Fine Print
-- The equity is vested when a certain number of forums are aggregating:
-- 100 forums = 1.0%; 250 forums = 2.0%; 500 forums = 2.5%; 750 forums = 3.0%
-- The forums that are added should be established forums (at least a thousand topics/threads or so) and not forums you just created
-- The added forums should have low spam content
-- We cannot afford a lawyer to write up a special document, so hopefully a dated/signed/notarized letter should be sufficient for the equity agreement
-- We are not looking for someone to copy/paste Agalanche onto every single forum/website in existence because that doesn't make a good impression.<p>As another option, if you (or a company) own several larger forums that are established with active users we could also extend an equity option to you if you added all your forums.<p>http://beta.agalanche.com
======
byoung2
I used to work for Internet Brands (owners of vBulletin and nearly 100 forums
that us it). I'm not sure they would go for it, since they are worried about
security, but you should try contacting them to see about a partnership. It
couldn't hurt having the makers of vBulletin endorse your product.
~~~
mkinnan
Thanks for the info ... I found their website and will be contacting them. We
have integrated numerous and redundant security features with our aggregation
approach, so hopefully that appeases security concerns.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Stop Datamining Me - known
https://www.stopdatamining.me/opt-out-list/
======
corobo
The absolute irony of this site's privacy policy.
> Service Providers. We work with third parties who provide services including
> but not limited to data analysis, order fulfillment, list enhancement and
> other administrative services. We may disclose personal information to such
> third parties for the purpose of enabling these third parties to provide
> services to us. Such services may include: marketing distribution, email
> list management services, advertising, certain product functionalities,
> customer support, web hosting, customer data management and enhancement,
> fulfillment services (e.g., companies that fill product orders or coordinate
> mailings), research and surveys, data analysis and email service.
[https://www.stopdatamining.me/privacy-
policy/](https://www.stopdatamining.me/privacy-policy/)
~~~
unfamiliar
They're mining that no-data-mining market. That's a good market!
~~~
tjoff
It really must be. Because for some reason all big companies are hell bent on
tricking even the 0.001% power users that actually care by constantly
overriding options and nagging people until they accidentally click the wrong
thing that one time.
I have no idea what they expect to gain by infuriating that group.
~~~
froasty
The anger dollar. Huge. Huge in times of recession. Giant market. They're very
bright to do that.
~~~
mattnewton
[https://youtu.be/tHEOGrkhDp0](https://youtu.be/tHEOGrkhDp0) ? (profanity
warning)
------
tpxl
Loads javascript from google-analytics.com and facebook.com. Please do, in
fact, stop datamining me.
~~~
pixl97
301 Redirect Permanent ->
[https://cant.stopdatamining.me](https://cant.stopdatamining.me)
~~~
hexscrews
Gives me a Privacy error on chrome. >.<
This server could not prove that it is cant.stopdatamining.me; its security
certificate is from *.gridserver.com. This may be caused by a misconfiguration
or an attacker intercepting your connection
------
wjnc
So would anyone pay for a service like this that acts like an attorney and
actively contacts companies for insight into the information they store on you
and requests for removal? Included in the service would be class-action suits
and other litigative measures. We could introduce a free tier to find out if X
companies store anything and a service if you want to clean up. Like legal
insurance but then only for data.
~~~
nawtacawp
Just from personal experience I’ve spent time opting out of these collections
in the past. To include, people search websites only to find my information
resurface months later. I think this may take constant monitoring. I’m not
sure the mechinism that is used for data to be added after asking for opt
out/deletion
~~~
wjnc
If you can get judges to rule on costs in favor of the plaintiff (quite usual
in my EU jurisdiction) then there quickly arises an incentive for cooperation.
All you need is a few high profile wins. Those companies would probably start
sharing by default and / or taking opt-out more seriously after that. "It's
your data. Fight it!" (How's that for a slogan. And I know it's not
grammatically correct.)
It's analogous to the operation of those lawyers asking a few thousand euros
for unlicensed use of pictures. That's legit as well here. Legal reverse GDPR
extortion. Gives us insight into these customers, who've given us power of
attorney or we sue. Lose and pay our bills. Win and we are done and the
customers pay a much smaller fee (a person, but hopefully adding up to a
reasonable fee).
~~~
howard941
> judges to rule on costs in favor of the plaintiff (quite usual in my EU
> jurisdiction)
Please correct me if I'm wrong but I think your costs are broader, include
attorneys fees, and are therefore different from US costs. In US courts the
prevailing party defaults to including costs when preparing the judgment order
(parties do almost all of the drafting in US courts) but "costs" is taken to
literally mean court costs as in filing fees and a very limited menu of
closely related expenses such as costs pertaining to service of process, court
clerk photocopying charges, and the like.
~~~
wjnc
Yup, broader costs. Losers often pay quite a substantial part of the legal
fees of the winner. A comparatively extreme example: in liability cases with
injuries, the judge will often allow quite broad legal costs (about 25% of
total claims is legal costs). It's an extreme example since registered
attorneys cannot work on that basis, but goes to show that substantial costs
to the loser does happen.
~~~
howard941
Thank you
------
gaff33
Seeing this list and its mix of Email / Phone / Fax / Web systems - and this
is only for 50 companies - makes you realise why GDPR-like regulations are
needed!
------
mnw21cam
It has always rather irked me that seemingly the only way to stop people from
datamining you is to give them more information. Many web pages even
specifically complain about third party cookies being disabled in the web
browser, saying that they can't possibly honour my preference unless I switch
it back on again.
I'd much rather just not hand out the information in the first place.
~~~
Tobani
There needs to be a mechanism to tweak the signal-to-noise ratio. Either 1)
stop interact with them and send 0 signal, or 2) have a browser plugin that
just provides random interaction on a webpage and increase the the noise. The
expensive targeting machines they've built become much less useful.
~~~
infinityplus1
AdNauseam is a Firefox extension which clicks ads automatically.
~~~
mrweasel
While that seems like a fun idea, I'm not a fan of the permissions the
extension requires.
~~~
SilasX
Mozilla screams bloody murder about security and careless users, but then
forces you to choose between "no extensions" and "extensions with unlimited
permissions to see everything you do".
------
AdmiralAsshat
So do we have any proof that these sites actually honor the opt-out requests
and don't simply add the information we had to provide to them to their
dossier?
Profile: Doe, John
New Details: Hates data-mining.
~~~
tivert
> So do we have any proof that these sites actually honor the opt-out requests
> and don't simply add the information we had to provide to them to their
> dossier?
I don't know, especially for scummy people search websites.
However, I've requested a lot of disclosure reports and opted out of _a lot_
of stuff, and I don't think I've volunteered anything the dataminer probably
didn't already know. The real big names like Lexis Nexus and the credit
bureaus have their tentacles in everything, so it'd be very difficult to hide
your address, telephone number, and property information from them.
The requests that require emails or phone numbers have never rejected
throwaway accounts or non-personal phones numbers I have access to. I think
they mostly ask for them to impede bulk opt outs.
------
medlazik
Dilemma: In order to remove my info I need to give them my info
------
soared
Or just use the bulk opt-outs provided by the advertising industry
organizations. The first is webchoices (the blue triangle you see in the
corner of some ads, which allows you to report ads, see how you were targeted,
etc.) and the second is the NAI (Network advertising initiative, a non-profit
pushing self-regulation for advertisers.)
[http://optout.aboutads.info/?c=3&lang=en](http://optout.aboutads.info/?c=3&lang=en)
[http://optout.networkadvertising.org/?c=1](http://optout.networkadvertising.org/?c=1)
You can also see what types of data Oracle has on you. This doesn't include
all of the companies they own though.
[https://datacloudoptout.oracle.com/registry/](https://datacloudoptout.oracle.com/registry/)
~~~
jcfrei
Before I can get to the opt-out page it loads a "Webchoices Browser Check" and
it fails because I block third-party cookies? Is this a joke?
~~~
soared
You opt-out by using third party cookies, what do you expect it to do without
having access to that?
~~~
jcfrei
Opting out of tracking via first-party cookies. I mean the owner of a website
could just share my page visits with an ad network regardless of third-party
cookies.
------
GrinningFool
What is this, exactly?
The "Take Control of your Data" call to action takes me to list of 'how to opt
out from company X' which exists in plenty of other places, and I'd have to
submit them myself. Nothing that goes into data usage, etc. Then there's the
privacy policy as others have pointed out, and the analytics/facebook scripts.
There's no functionality or service provided that I can find. The blog seems
to be retweets and noise.
Not sure how this got voted onto on the front page, it doesn't seem to be a
legitimate thing.
------
octosphere
Doesn't opting out cause a Streisand Effect?[1]. I mean, if you go out of your
way to hide something it makes you even more interesting and you stand out. My
own strategy for not having data collected on me is to compartmentalize and
have various contextual identities across different services and never cross
contaminate identities and never have all my personal info in one centralized
location that makes it easier for the likes of Acxiom Corporation to profile
me. I call it identity 'sharding'.
[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect)
~~~
soared
Your strategy doesn't work, FYI. If you have /ever/ used the same device or
network they are linked. If you've ever used a credit card across your
'shards', if you've ever logged into a service (especially gmail/fb) accross
'shards' then your identities are linked. You'd need entirely separate
devices, networks, names, browsing habits, social accounts, etc. You might've
lowered their confidence, but that has nearly zero effect. Cross-device graphs
are exceptionally advanced.. all the machine learning/etc that gets discussed
on hn is used to beat users like you. Oracle is one of many vendors who do
this.
[https://blogs.oracle.com/oracledatacloud/crosswise-
questions...](https://blogs.oracle.com/oracledatacloud/crosswise-questions-
answered)
[https://go.oracle.com/LP=57841](https://go.oracle.com/LP=57841)
------
ryanisnan
Also the first site’s opt out is a total joke. Provide all your sensitive PII
so they can remove it from their system. No thanks.
------
techbio
If you scroll to the bottom you'll see that this is a lead generator for
attorneys, who are notorious for using "advanced" advertising techniques. They
bring in a hot lead, like this site seems well designed to do, and write a
letter for $X+.00, and maybe repeat as whack-a-mole goes.
------
thosakwe
What if there were a browser plugin that would generate large amounts of fake
data, and sent that to ads/analytics/trackers whenever they popped up, in
addition to preventing the actual user's data from being sent?
~~~
pseudoanonymity
AdNauseam _Clicking ads so you don 't have to_
[https://adnauseam.io/](https://adnauseam.io/)
------
sixothree
I'm sick of just knowing what "kind" of data people have about. I (expletive)
want to know what people know about me.
~~~
soared
Here you go:
[https://datacloudoptout.oracle.com/registry/](https://datacloudoptout.oracle.com/registry/)
------
wintorez
Nice try!
------
awolf
The Equifax link leads to a form where you submit your social security number
and birthdate. Cool.
------
Antonio123123
Reminds me of those public "do not call" lists. Guess what - they get called
more often.
~~~
elliekelly
I can't for the life of me understand why we don't yet have dual-consent
calling. Your call should only go through on my phone if you have my number
_and_ I've added yours to my address book. Otherwise you should go straight to
voicemail.
~~~
optimusclimb
Emergency situations. "Sir, we found your wallet...", etc., etc.
~~~
overcast
So leave a voicemail. No one answers their phones anymore anyhow, because it's
99% of the time a spammer.
~~~
JohnFen
That's what I do. If a call comes into my phone from a number that isn't in my
address book, it just gets sent straight to voicemail. My phone won't even
ring.
The only reason I don't just drop the call completely is to cover situations
where a someone not in my address book might be calling me for something
important.
That has never actually happened yet, though.
------
gketuma
So Equifax is still out here data mining folks huh? :(
------
alkonaut
Someone make a form that submits to all at once
~~~
soared
[http://optout.aboutads.info/?c=3&lang=en](http://optout.aboutads.info/?c=3&lang=en)
[http://optout.networkadvertising.org/?c=1](http://optout.networkadvertising.org/?c=1)
~~~
dcendum
These just opt you out of browser options, cookies, etc. I'd like to see a
tool that actually removes real PII from these co's databases. Know of a tool
around that does it?
~~~
casefields
We need to update the fair credit reporting act with a data retention and opt
out section for online activities. The key would be making the violations
punitive enough that only crooks, and not these supposedly respectable
corporations, would be willing to abuse.
------
sys_64738
Who is this person and what do they have to hide?
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
WeWork Gets a Visit from Financial Reality - rhayabusa
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-01-08/wework-gets-a-visit-from-financial-reality
======
kgwgk
[https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-01-08/wework...](https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-01-08/wework-
gets-less-money-shorter-name)
"In addition to the corporate finance weirdness: “Going forward, the company
will no longer be called WeWork but rather The We Company.” (“The switch is
not a legal name change,” okay.) And: “Rather than just renting desks, the
company aims to encompass all aspects of people’s lives, in both physical and
digital worlds,” which is—and I have spent years writing about the financial
and tech industries and do not say this lightly—the very worst corporate
slogan I have ever heard.
Me: What does your company do?
We: We encompass all aspects of your life, in both physical and digital
worlds.
Me: Wait that’s terrifying.
We: We’re like Facebook, only you also live here.
Me: Who did you say you are again?
We: We are We.
The new company will be divided into several main business units: WeWork,
WeLive, WeGrow, WeHarvest and WeFeast, wait no only the first three of those
are real, but I am looking forward to when they start a line of industrial-
chic funeral homes, WeDie. (Free beer at the wake!) Seriously WeGrow (real!)
is “a still evolving business that currently includes an elementary school and
a coding academy.” And WeWhatever’s founders once (in 2009!) “mapped out plans
for everything from WeSleep to WeSail to WeBank.” I can’t keep up with this."
~~~
bartread
"The We Company": somebody didn't check what that _sounds_ like when spoken in
British English. Wait, what? A company that manufactures and or sells wee?!??
(Pee, to our American friends.) It's not as extreme as powergenitalia or
expertsexchange but still something of a facepalm.
~~~
ezoe
It happens all the time. Apple's Siri means Ass in Japanese.
~~~
austinpray
I brought this up with my Japanese friend. He told me there are so many
homophones in the language people are desensitised to stuff like this. For
example: シ (shi) can mean both 四 (four) and 死 (death).
~~~
SllX
You’re not wrong, but your choice of examples isn’t great. Four is actually
associated with death _because_ it sounds like death, four is unlucky[4].
There is also an alternative pronunciation for “four”, よん。
[4]
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetraphobia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetraphobia)
------
Traster
>The Gulf investors backing the Vision Fund seem to have decided that WeWork
is not a tech bet but simply an aggressive punt on real estate.
This is the bogey man of a huge number of current 'tech startups' \- What if
it turns out Tesla really are a car company! Or if We Work are actually an
office rental company! OR _gasp_ Uber is a cab company! (1)
We now have a glut of companies operating in traditional markets that have
valuations that would indicate they'll be as big or bigger than their biggest
competitors. IWG is a comparable company to WeWork, has £2.35n revenue and
£1.95Bn market cap. Wework has slightly lower revenue but is being lined up
for a £20Bn valuation. Not only this, but WeWork are going to learn about the
cyclical nature of office rental revenue.
The key for these companies is to show concrete indicators that their business
is actually different from the companies they're disrupting and We Work has
done an absolutely rubbish job of that so far.
(1) I want to be clear I don't think all those examples have nothing to
differentiate them, but it's closer than some people might like to think.
~~~
scandox
In 1999 there was an email going round about how ridiculous dotcom valuations
were. Taking Amazon, I think, as an example it said it would have to earn more
than Kodak, Boeing, Caterpillar etc to ever be worth it's valuation.
There was a general sense of "it's just a bookstore".
Now I know everything is more mature and the situation is different, but I
also remember feeling very confident that Amazon was waaay overvalued.
~~~
zwkrt
Pets.com was also overvalued, right? It's easy to see the winners in
hindsight.
~~~
coldcode
Pets went out of business trying to ship heavy dog food for free. But today
the logistics for that actually exists. Often it doesn't pay to be too early.
If you are too early you need more cash to stick around until you are proven
right. Webvan was another example, today food shipping businesses are
everywhere (whether they make money or not one can argue) but back then they
were too early and tried too hard before the logistics worked.
~~~
JohnFen
> Often it doesn't pay to be too early
As the old adage goes -- the pioneers get all the arrows.
~~~
Atheros
The second mouse gets the cheese.
------
sachinprism
I feel like WeWork would be one of the first companies to go under in case a
recession hits the US market. Everyone who works there is probably going to
decide en masse that they can do the same things from home or a Starbucks
~~~
whalesalad
We (2 of us, expected to grow to 4 quickly) toured WeWork, Spaces (Regus) and
a few other one-off spots here in Orange County. Everyone was pretty pricey,
like 2500/mo for 100 square feet. WeWork was definitely the worst and was the
most overcrowded... but hey they have beer on tap! (sarcasm)
Ultimately we grabbed a lease on Pacific Coast Highway with a sweeping view of
the ocean for less with about 3x the room in a freshly renovated building.
These coworking spaces are terrible.
~~~
eddiezane
I recently became remote and when hunting for a coworking space initially
figured I'd just go to one of the WeWork's here (Denver).
I was blown away at the cost of a "hot desk" membership [1]. The least
expensive offering was $360/mo. For a desk that's not "yours" and you can't
leave anything at.
I wound up going with Novel [2] for $99/mo. Sure printing costs me $0.10/page
but other than that it's pretty much a desk.
For fun I checked out the pricing for WeWork SF [3]...
[1] [https://www.wework.com/l/denver--CO](https://www.wework.com/l/denver--CO)
[2] [https://novelcoworking.com/locations/colorado/denver/16th-
st...](https://novelcoworking.com/locations/colorado/denver/16th-street/)
[3] [https://www.wework.com/l/san-francisco--sf-bay-area--
CA](https://www.wework.com/l/san-francisco--sf-bay-area--CA)
~~~
samschooler
I might end up at a desk near you! I'm currently looking for a co-working
space in Denver.
~~~
slovette
Https://www.Proximity.space
Interesting startup. :)
------
mcintyre1994
I get these financial criticisms, I doubt they'll last long when the recession
hits. We were in one recently and I remember seeing a bulletin board thing I
think showing stuff from their Instagram, but it said they're opening 40+
buildings a month. And there's probably 10 in walking distance of the City
now. It's pretty insane.
That said, we moved from a WeWork to a Spaces (the Regus clone-ish) and it's
incredible the basic things that feel standard that Spaces screw up. It took
weeks to get us all building passes. The office was boiling when we moved in,
we asked them to cool it and they made it freezing (no thermostat...), then
ignored further requests to adjust. No microwaves (they sell food instead...).
No free coffee (you can buy instant pods). To print you have to email
reception then wait for someone to be available to do it - and you have to pay
for that. Booking meeting rooms for a future day costs money. You can't ask
them to get your parcel from the postroom, they just leave it wide open so
anybody can take whatever, and there's no organisation. WeWork wasn't anything
special (and had the noise issues everyone else mentioned), but they did have
down the very basics that make an office usable.
~~~
reustle
Surprised at how many locations they have, if this is the correct company:
[https://www.spacesworks.com/locations/](https://www.spacesworks.com/locations/)
~~~
mcintyre1994
That's the one - I wonder if they just rebranded some existing Regus places?
Or maybe they're building as fast as WeWork, I'm not sure.
Funny thing about that list though - their app doesn't remember your office
location, so if you want to book a meeting room you have to drill down from
every Spaces location worldwide down to your country, then city, then office
to find the one in your building. :)
------
code4tee
It will be interesting how this all plays out.
WeWork’s model wasn’t new (Regis has been doing real estate subdivision
arbitrage for years) they just made that model cooler and added some free beer
and a few other perks but it’s still the same business. Someone from WeWork
recently told me they are a digital experiences company and not a real estate
company. Increasingly the market seems to be calling BS on that.
There’s very much a demand for WeWork type services and it meets a real need
but it’s a low margin low multiple real estate arbitrage play not a high
multiple tech play. WeWork has way too many people and far too much overhead
relative to the business they are actually in despite pretending to be
something else.
WeWork also seems to be getting very unfocused buying up lots of other
businesses and getting way beyond their core real estate play. Given that,
shifting market views and their extreme leverage with long term leases I wish
them well but this could get real ugly real quick.
~~~
dvtrn
_Someone from WeWork recently told me they are a digital experiences company
and not a real estate company._
Did you ask them what this meant, or did the conversation effectively die
there? I'd be curious to hear straight from the horse's mouth what the horse
thinks 'digital experiences company' means.
~~~
code4tee
I was trying to be polite and didn’t push it too much, but it was similar to
descriptions coming out in the press. They want to run schools, housing and
all aspects of your life but as a digital experience.
The gist though was that these were all just existing needed but boring
businesses with low valuations. WeWork’s strategy seems to be “but we can run
an elementary school and it should command a wild valuation because it’s not a
school it’s a WeSchool.” It wasn’t a convincing argument.
~~~
dvtrn
Completely fair. I was just curious because looking at so many of these types
of companies that on the face look just like another real estate/cab/hotel
(WeWork/Uber,Lift/AirBnb respectively) company but are convinced "no we're
%synonym laden description of what a cab company does%", I start to wonder how
thoroughly convinced of these descriptions your non-C-level employee is.
------
dunpeal
Crazy valuations for startups like WeWork remind me of the Dot Com bubble,
when companies put up a shiny new "high tech" facade in front of entirely
traditional business models, then expected to be valued at a large multiple of
a normal company with that well trodden value proposition.
We all know how well that ended.
Companies that want the sky-high valuations of innovative high tech should be,
you know, actually innovative and high tech. Just because your company has web
2.0 trappings (or ends in .com) doesn't automatically entitle you to "high
tech" and "innovative" valuations.
Developing a new non-obvious technology would be a good start.
~~~
rchaud
Anything pitched as 'tech' that doesn't look or smell like 'tech' is basically
the founders' way of saying 'we need a lot of money because we lose millions
each year and are nowhere close to making a profit.'
~~~
CaptainZapp
Well, maybe they should add _Blockchain_ to the company name.
------
onetimemanytime
People have been valuing them using the wrong metrics so far: _" WeWork isn’t
really a real estate company. It’s a state of consciousness, he argues, a
generation of interconnected emotionally intelligent entrepreneurs."_
[https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-04-27/wework...](https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-04-27/wework-
accounts-for-consciousness)
Can't wait till SEC adds "state of consciousness" and "emotionally
interconnect-ness" to quarterly reports.
~~~
shoo
Quoting Matt Levine from that link:
> That first innovation seems a little questionable. Like, there is an
> established competitive business of office rental in which real-estate
> companies own office buildings and rent them to companies; I am not sure why
> there would be a ton of room to compete with that business by interposing
> yourself as an expensive middleman. Why would a tenant want to pay a profit
> margin both to WeWork and to its underlying landlord, when it could just
> rent from the underlying landlord and pay only one profit margin? There is
> some room for a value-added middleman — and WeWork can add value not only by
> providing beer but also by splitting office rental into smaller space and
> time chunks than a big commercial landlord — but, still, it does not seem
> easy.
> But the second innovation is great. For one thing, it is great for the
> obvious reason: If you can get into a traditional mature highly competitive
> business, call yourself a tech startup, and get a multibillion-dollar
> valuation based on potential rather than cash flow, then you have achieved a
> profound arbitrage and really ought to be rewarded for it. But it also helps
> solve the first problem: WeWork’s tenants don’t have to pay two profit
> margins, because WeWork’s investors give it tons of money which it can then
> spend on giving tenants free rent. In a loose sense, WeWork’s business model
> is getting SoftBank to buy beer for software workers. Which is fine!
------
rchaud
> " Given WeWork’s opaque financials and its self-made metrics such as
> “community-adjusted Ebitda,” you can see why investors might be rethinking a
> company that has relied a lot on confidence, optimism and faith."
I understand why companies occasionally report results as GAAP and non-GAAP,
but "community adjusted EBITDA" is absurd, even for a private company.
~~~
code4tee
They seem to try to use this metric to claim healthy financials on individual
locations (because they rent out desks in aggregate for more than the office
lease costs) but it ignores where a large part of their costs are (central
overhead) and thus it’s an unrealistic picture of how they actually run the
business.
If they ran themselves like a real estate company then their central function
would probably be a few attorneys to process deals and some people handling
paperwork. Instead they have huge central costs which they want people to
ignore via these metrics.
Simple non-GAAP is one thing but most of these invented metrics scream “our
financials are terrible so we made up this metric where if you ignore our real
costs we look less terrible”
------
linkmotif
I really wanted WeWork to work for me. But it did not.
During my time there, it became apparent that their entire focus was on
growth. WeWork was never interested in catering to their core market: people
who want to work. They failed to create a productive work environment. They
alienated people like me, who were willing to pay top dollar for a decent
place to work. Instead they created distraction-filled, tacky places that
fostered little except beer drinking.
I'm looking forward to seeing it crumble, or at least for reality to catch up.
PS. If anyone knows a co-working space in NY that actually provides a nice,
quiet place to work, please let me know. I will pay good money for such a
place. I am thinking like
[https://misantrope.com/?lang=en](https://misantrope.com/?lang=en)
~~~
ghaff
Aren't "co-working" and "nice, quiet place to work" sort of mutually
exclusive? It's like nice quiet open office plan. I suppose it's possible in
theory but doesn't seem to be the norm. Certainly there are lots of places
that rent private offices.
~~~
linkmotif
> Aren't "co-working" and "nice, quiet place to work" sort of mutually
> exclusive?
I don't think this has to be true. Why can't people co-work together, quietly?
This used to be the case in libraries, before libraries became places where
governments administer social services.
It's nice to work around other people, just as long as they are not on phone
calls or taking meetings. These people belong in call centers or meeting
rooms, so that people who aren’t talking can continue thinking and working.
> Certainly there are lots of places that rent private offices.
After giving up on the open office hot desk, I switched to a private office in
WeWork. You could hear the music from the hallway. Furthermore, this
particular WeWork was situated on top of a beer garden. Every weekend my
"private office" most literally started shaking and vibrating as the beer
garden turned into a club. I am not exaggerating. It was a joke.
~~~
ghaff
In my experience, most of the spaces in libraries where I work are still
pretty quiet. But there's a pretty strong cultural expectation that you don't
talk on the phone or have more than short low volume exchanges with others--
even aside from any specific rules.
I agree music seems more than a bit much but a workplace is somewhere many
people have conversations and have to make and take calls. I don't think I'd
be very inclined to spend money on a space where I had to try to find a room
every time I was on a phone call or wanted to talk with someone.
I'm willing to restrict talking if I'm hanging out for free in a library. Not
so much if I'm paying for a desk. One should of course have consideration for
others but, for many, a big part of their job is talking on the phone.
~~~
linkmotif
> I don't think I'd be very inclined to spend money on a space where I had to
> try to find a room every time I was on a phone call or wanted to talk with
> someone.
But what makes more sense: you stepping out or getting a private office, or
making the open office non-viable for everyone else who has to focus? What a
conceit that everyone else should adapt to you when you could simply adapt to
everyone else.
~~~
ghaff
It's a matter of expectations. For most people, an office isn't a library
reading room. It's a place they work which often means talking. Someone's
welcome to do a silent co-working space startup but I don't think they'll have
much success.
~~~
linkmotif
> It's a matter of expectations. For most people, an office isn't a library
> reading room. It's a place they work which often means talking.
Can't argue that. Only issue is WeWork doesn't sell it that way. They sell the
open office space as a quiet place, and then play good cop/bad cop and
everything in between.
------
tedivm
> The tech bubble’s financial backer of last resort, the $100 billion SoftBank
> Vision Fund
That is the most amazing and accurate description of SoftBank I've ever read.
------
CodeSheikh
"The Gulf investors backing the Vision Fund seem to have decided that WeWork
is not a tech bet but simply an aggressive punt on real estate."
If you have earlier invested in WeWork as a tech startup then one should be
questioning your investment strategies and research methods.
~~~
freewilly1040
Probably not a bad idea for SoftBank... even this headline is funny, Sotbank
has decided against a _ludicrously large_ investment in favor of a _still very
large_ one
~~~
whatok
SoftBank did not decide against it. SoftBank's Vision Fund investors decided
against it so SoftBank itself invested instead of the Vision Fund.
------
holoduke
I really wonder why and how companies are willing to rent at these places.
It's full of arrogant pricks and the failure rate of startups is insane. I
founded a company few years ago. Was offered space at we work for about 3k for
just 100square feet. Few days of searching through local real estate companies
brought me a 300square feet office for 1.5k at a similar location. Only no
freebeers and fancy entrance.
~~~
rrggrr
Just looked at a WeWork space today. The use case is an attractive place for a
remote employee to work for us in a job that attracts (and is best done) by a
highly social person. I can't get the right person leaving them at home, and I
can't relocate them to me.
~~~
Fomite
While I agree with this use case (and is why I hate co-working spaces for what
I do), that's a pretty narrow slice of the market given their current
valuation.
------
cityzen
What are people's thoughts about a franchise model co-working space where the
core company develops all of the technology, infrastructure, etc and then they
are all independently owned and operated paying a franchise fee? I see a lot
of people that want to start a co-working space and spin their wheels trying
to figure out how to do it right. If there was a blueprint and turnkey
solution to manage users, website presence and you could open one in a strip
mall, would people use it? One problem I see is that people compete to make it
THE place to work as opposed to A place to work.
Imagine if your town had almost as many co-working hubs as mattress firm
stores. I know that's a lot but a guy can dream, right?
Edit: Not to mention, you could have a membership that could be regional,
national, international and interplanetary.
~~~
cmonfeat
Are you thinking a traditional franchise (like a gym) or a platform that
independent landlords can list their co-working spacaces on (i.e. Airbnb for
coworking spaces)?
They both seem like less risky and more traditional tech plays than WeWork's
current business model.
~~~
cityzen
Years ago (before airbnb) I was working on that independent landlord idea and
got cold feet when people I was interviewing seemed mostly concerned with
insurance liability of having strangers in their space. LiquidSpace came along
and did the same thing but they were funded so better equipped to navigate the
liability issues.
That's when I started thinking about smaller co-working spots in strip malls
and similar locations. Focus more on the details around managing co-working
(member management, access management, etc) and franchise it out.
I have never gotten deep into the details so there are likely many reasons why
it wouldn't work but as a work from home guy, it's something I'd love to have
near me.
------
mgadams3
I've enjoyed being a customer of WeWork (and benefitting from this
economically untenable situation) much more than having my start-up acquired
by them. It actually is a pretty well executed product (not economically
viable but well designed/run spaces) but not the type of company I wanted
anything to do with as an employee. I definitely wasn't buying their pitch
about being a tech company.
I left immediately after we were acquired to start another new company and
have been very happy with that decision. The whole thing was very...
bizarre... to say the least. Just glad I can enjoy this spectacle from afar
with relatively little skin in the game.
------
chiefalchemist
> "While there’s no doubt a sober message here for Silicon Valley optimists,
> there’s also one for markets at large. This might be a turning point not too
> dissimilar to past real-estate bubbles."
The question is have now is: where are those investors / investment monies
going to go next? If the hipness of being involved in startups is over (for
the trendy types if you will), where are these rich cool kids going to go
next? That is, unless they have a place to go, are they going to leave?
------
Blackstone4
This Bloomberg article got it wrong. The stock market has been going down and
they jumped on a potentially negative story. Bottom line is SoftBank didn't
make as much money in the IPO of its Japanese telco unit and the Vision fund
can't invest due to Saudi interest.
From Dan Primack's column at Axios:
>"The state of play: There's lots of buzz about how this deal is much smaller
than what was originally contemplated, including one 2018 report whereby
SoftBank could acquire a majority stake in the co-working space giant.
>The big picture: We told you in October that the control deal was no longer
on the table, but that investment negotiations were ongoing.
>Fast Company this morning reports, based on an interview with CEO Adam
Neumann, that the two sides neared a much-larger deal that could have bought
out all of WeWork's existing shareholders, but that SoftBank bailed after a
disappointing IPO for its Japanese mobile unit. In short, SoftBank's corporate
balance sheet was smaller and less flexible than had been originally
anticipated. SoftBank theoretically has enough dry powder in its Vision Fund,
but we hear that the Saudi connections made that prospect less appealing to
both sides due to perceived regulatory risk (read: CFIUS, particularly in
light of the Khashoggi murder). The bottom line: Don't read this deal as a
macro commentary on unicorn troubles. SoftBank is still investing $2 billion
into WeWork, in which it already holds a sizable position though both its
balance sheet and Vision Fund, and doing so at a high valuation.
>Not even the most profligate investor spends that kind of coin if it believes
the market is crumbling. There also is a NYT report that SoftBank may have had
trouble getting enough WeWork shareholders to sell into the larger proposal."
[0]
[https://www.axios.com/authors/danprimack](https://www.axios.com/authors/danprimack)
------
mothsonasloth
Anytime I've been to a WeWork, I have never seen much work being done.
Common themes I've seen are, some hipster Instagram'ing their overpriced avo
and toast, a bunch of cute dogs running around mad distracting everyone,
people browsing social media and someone messing around with the Sonos music
player, setting the song to Rihanna's "Work" on repeat.
The WeWork camps look fun, if not a bit cultish.
caveat: these observations are from what I've seen in the shared spaces, I
realise there are private offices and spaces where people will be working
hard.
------
carlsborg
Some anecdotal trends from first hand observations in a few co-working spaces:
1] Startups that do well tend to outgrow the co-working space and leave for
their own offices. 2] Higher salaries/interesting job openings in larger
companies due to economic growth and low unemployment at the macro level means
fewer people co-working at startups that don't do well. 3] Remote workers want
to arbitrage living costs so they leave big cities and go to low cost areas.
------
vinceguidry
I hope they make it through. I have a WeWork right in walking distance and
would love to work there regularly if I ever get a remote job.
~~~
grogenaut
What is attractive to you about it? Serious question, I’ve worked in their
spaces before but we leased an entire floor and I wasn’t wowed or pissed at
it. What makes you excited?
~~~
colmvp
I co-work in one. The people who also co-work there are friendly, and they do
have good amenities. Honestly, they upped the game of co-working spaces in my
city. I don't work consistently in the office to warrant renting my own office
space but I wanted a place where I could socialize instead of getting cabin
fever at home. Starbucks / Cafes aren't really conducive to talking to random
people either.
~~~
badwolf
This is basically my story. After we closed our office due to everyone except
me moving away, I worked from home for a few months. It's nice being around
people.
------
jamisteven
WeeWork largely catered to the digital portion of the gig economy(freelancers
etc), which was largely over estimated. [https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-
estimates-of-the-gig-econom...](https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-estimates-of-
the-gig-economy-went-wrong-11546857000)
------
slovette
Has anyone seen startups like this:
[https://www.proximity.space](https://www.proximity.space)
Seems like maybe a more realistic approach that provides a way for traditional
real estate to become coworking spaces.
------
schintan
Even the 2B might be just to preserve the value of their earlier invested
money ?
------
wolco
A private office costs between 1,000 to 22,000 a month in ny city. Why not
rent a house or apartment the privacy would be better and beer for all.
~~~
jacques_chester
Mostly because (a) insurers will typically void your homeowner's/renter's
insurance and (b) the amount of business you can do from home in NYC is
limited. It works fine for a techie working solo. But you won't be able to
work _with_ anyone.
------
nkrisc
Perhaps I'm missing something, but in what sense, even in the most liberal
interpretation, is WeWork a technology company?
------
wongarsu
tl;dr: Softbank/VisonFund investors told Softbank that they want to
concentrate investments on "technology bets". Since WeWork is a real estate
company and not a technology company Softbank will invest less in their next
financing round (though not so little that it will be a down round)
------
fxfan
Dang most comments are reddit tier. Could you please clean up. Thanks.
------
acd
One could say Uber a taxi car Company Airbnb a hotel Facebook selling private
information Google advertisement company Tesla car company
~~~
zrobotics
True, but at least the companies you mentioned did something new in their
respective industries. What, exactly, has WeWork done that is innovative,
aside from putting a trendy face on office rental?
~~~
drewrv
WeWorks innovation is coming up with an office rental "product" that has high
demand not being met by the market. Most property owners want long term leases
because vacancies cost them money. Most freelancers and small businesses want
short term, month-to-month, fully furnished office spaces.
I think they're overvalued, and they'll be in trouble if a recession hits. But
coworking spaces do fill a need in the real estate market, one that's likely
to grow, and WeWork is the market leader.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Chrome: 50 releases and counting - rayshan
https://chrome.googleblog.com/2016/04/chrome-50-releases-and-counting.html
======
pfg
Slightly OT: I wish more projects with a rapid release cycle would adopt
CalVer (calendar-based versioning, like Ubuntu).
I find they're much easier to parse for humans, and the semantics are just
fine for projects such as Chrome and Firefox.
------
wyldfire
> 9.1 Billion: forms and passwords automatically filled each month ...
I simultaneously love and and terrified by chrome's capability to store and
sync my passwords to all the websites I log into. It sucks when you use
another browser: only by repeatedly typing the password(s) can I train myself
to recall it. It's fantastic on all of the devices I use Chrome on. And I'm
placing absolutely enormous trust in Google that's probably pretty risky for
many reasons.
Yes, I acknowledge that there are other solutions available as plugins and
whatnot. It's just too remarkably convenient to keep using the builtin
solution.
~~~
pfg
You can actually set a passphrase that's used to encrypt all synchronized
items, before they're being sent to Google[1].
[1]:
[https://support.google.com/chrome/answer/1181035?hl=en](https://support.google.com/chrome/answer/1181035?hl=en)
------
xg15
I find out interesting that they got the numbers for pages viewed and password
forms filled in: I would think that those activities only involve the client
side and should not hit the google backend at all. So those stats would have
to be gathered by chrome and sent back to google at some point.
(Unless they are approximate numbers)
I'm aware that complaining about this when using Chrome is like complaining
about wet feet when you go diving in the ocean, but just out of couriosity: Is
there a list of things that chrome keeps statistics about and a way to access
those statistics?
~~~
pfg
I'm guessing this is part of the telemetry Chrome gathers. IIRC when you first
install Chrome, there's an opt-in (or opt-out) where it asks the user whether
sending usage information to Google is okay. Firefox does something similar.
The total on that page is either the number from their telemetry or an
approximation based on those numbers and the size of their user base.
------
elcapitan
I don't know if Chrome was the first or one of the first desktop apps to do
that, but they really brought a breakthrough in continuous updates, and it
would be totally worth that even if we wouldn't use Chrome itself anymore.
Crazy times when we had to manually update all the time from Firefox
3.whatever to 3.whateverelse to get some minor improvement in functionality
plus 10 new things breaking until the next update. I used to keep the last
couple of versions of Firefox in my Apps folder just in case.
------
tracker1
Now, if they'd only enable extensions for android versions... so that
ublock/ghostery could work...
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: Programmatic Googling to Recreate xkcd results - mydpy
I am trying to access Google search results programmatically.<p>For example, let's say I wanted to recreate xkcd's X Girls Y Cup results.<p>http://xkcd.com/467/<p>AFAIK, Randall entered these results manually "X Girls Y Cup" into Google search.<p>Is there any way to do this programmatically? Does Google have an API that I can use to return the number of search results for a given search string? Is there any way to hack it by abusing the Google URI?<p>Any ideas for how to access Google's search results would be really helpful.<p>Thanks!
======
mydpy
It seems like my options are the Custom Search API from Google (with severe
limitations) or the Duck Duck Go API (which I'm not sure if it provides the
total number of results).
Any other ideas?
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: When does programming start to make sense? - amorphid
How long did it take before you could write code on your own? Every time I try to learn programming, it feels painfully slow compared to other things I've picked up. Maybe I'm the opposite of a natural. I took C++ in college and studied Ruby & PHP on my own.
======
10ren
Alan Turing said that programming would always be interesting because the
boring mechanical aspects could be automated (where "interesting" means "you
don't understand it" - or else you could automate it.) I daily run into issues
that I don't understand. That's what programming _is_ for me, I'm afraid;
rather like science. It's a sequence of monsters. The best we can do is to be
tackling new monsters, not the same ones.
Of course, programming jobs do exist where you do the same thing over and over
again. And there's a threshold of skill required before you can automate some
classes of things; and you also need a clear understanding of the task, to see
precisely which aspects are mechanical, and which aspects are configurable. It
pretty quickly gets into compsci research. And sometimes it's not worth the
effort (it can take a _lot_ of effort.)
But if you've ever called a method twice, instead of writing the code twice,
then you have done some of it.
I feel that your question "start to make sense" suggests your thinking is all-
or-nothing. Does _no_ aspect of programming make sense to you - or do some
"trivial" aspects make sense but they "don't count"? Does a print statement
make sense to you, to some extent? Does a loop make sense to you? There's a
continuum of mastery. If you only acknowledge perfect and complete mastery as
"mastery", then you won't feel any satisfaction in mastery of one small bit of
it. And without the confidence and encouragement of that success, it's very
hard to be motivated to continue. (oh yeah, plus, of course, it's impossible
to have perfect and complete mastery of programming anyway, for Turing's
reason.)
------
patio11
It took me a long, long time until I became reasonably confident that most
problems would eventually succumb to my programming ability. Probably almost
twenty years from when I wrote my first program, or a few years after college.
I can't write code on my own, though -- unless the problem is trivial and the
APIs I'm using I know like the back of my hand, I _need_ an Internet
connection to do it.
Part of this issue is possibly that competent people are disproportionately
stalked by the worry that they're secretly incompetent.
~~~
donaq
That is interesting. The experience has been almost the opposite for me. When
I first started programming, it did not take me long to start "getting it",
and I was very confident that there was no programming problem I could not
solve. As the years went by, I've noticed that my confidence has decreased to
the point where I am almost certain that there is no problem I _can_ solve
(besides the most trivial ones). Maybe I'm just getting dumber.
~~~
sga
Absolutely not. As you gain domain knowledge you should feel exactly this way.
I'd suggest that you be concerned if you didn't feel this way. When I finished
highschool I thought I was pretty damn smart and had a lot of things figured
out (clearly not the case). From an academic point of view as I worked towards
my Ph.D. I was constantly reminded of how very little I did know. While I did
learn new things day by day, my appreciation for how much I didn't know grew
exponentially. In fact I think what I'm left with after the whole exercise is
not a confidence in my knowledge but rather a confidence in my ability to
learn, problem solve and ask questions.
~~~
7402
"Universities are repositories of learning because students enter knowing
everything, and leave knowing nothing."
------
gagi
> Every time I try to learn programming, it feels painfully slow compared to
> other things I've picked up.
It's probably slow because you're not having fun with it. You're probably not
having fun with it because you're not solving a compelling goal. Ask yourself
whether you're learning "just to learn it" or are you trying to solve a
problem and this particular language/api/compiler/implementation will help you
achieve that goal.
I might be presumptuous here (and I apologize if I'm wrong) but the times I've
found myself stuck "learning" have been when I was just going through the
lessons for the heck of it, without a real goal in mind, without something to
accomplish.
Also, have a look at this:
[http://railstips.org/blog/archives/2010/01/12/i-have-no-
tale...](http://railstips.org/blog/archives/2010/01/12/i-have-no-talent/) I
found it inspirational.
~~~
owyn
It was no fun when I REALLY learned how to program, it was pure panic. I was
half way through a CS degree and got a summer job, and I just had get it done
no matter what so I beat my head against the problems and solved them. After
that, all the theory that I'd been learning started to make sense, and now I
have a more nuanced approach to coding, and a successful career.
Just trying to say, learning is not always fun. Get a job doing something you
don't know how to do. Maybe that will motivate you. :)
------
InclinedPlane
I cannot stress this enough: _learn refactoring_ ,
[http://www.amazon.com/Refactoring-Improving-Design-
Existing-...](http://www.amazon.com/Refactoring-Improving-Design-Existing-
Code/dp/0201485672)
You will simultaneously learn:
\- terminology and models relevant to software design and construction at
every level
\- principles of good coding and how to tell good code from bad
\- the ability to redesign code as needed
\- the experience and knowledge necessary to approach coding with confidence
All of these are the most critical tools you need to transform yourself from
someone who sorta-kinda knows a few principles of coding to someone who groks
software construction.
If I had to choose between a co-worker who truly groked the principles of re-
factoring and a co-worker who had a PhD in Computer Science I would choose the
former every time. It's really that important.
~~~
jng
I don't think that's good advice for a newbie.
To the OP: practice, practice and practice. It will take a long time. Months
to start getting it, years to go anywhere. 10+ years to be good. If it's too
hard, choose another profession. 99% of folks out there would hate
programming.
~~~
InclinedPlane
I could not disagree more, refactoring is perfect for a newbie. It's not an
advanced technique, it's fundamentals. Any beginner who can write a method can
extract a method.
But more than that, refactoring provides the mental models and the vocabulary
to talk about, reason about, and understand code. It provides well-worn expert
advice about the characteristics that make good code good and bad code bad,
heuristics to be able to recognize good and bad code, and basic techniques to
transform bad good into good safely and effectively.
There may be some advanced techniques in the book itself which won't be useful
to beginners, but that's true of any programming book, and that's easy enough
to skip over and return to later (especially with the organization of the
canonical refactoring book specifically).
A beginning programmer who has learned even the simplest of refactoring
techniques (extract method, insert/remove cached value, etc.) will be able to
look at a piece of code and see the ways it can be changed, and will also have
a reasonable idea about which changes are more likely to improve the code.
They will also have the mental models and vocabulary to talk about, reason
about, and understand the code, even if only to themselves. These tools are
hugely important for beginners. They can transform coding from a task filled
with uncertainty, fear, and irregular advancement born from experimentation to
a task filled with confidence, knowledge, and curiosity.
Certainly practice a lot, but don't just blindly stumble about on your own,
there's lots of good material out there, learn the techniques and then
practice applying them, build up your toolkit a bit at a time until you feel
more and more comfortable with coding.
------
rmorrison
For what it's worth, it took me several years before I really understood
programming. I distinctly remember thinking that I wasn't making progress, and
that I was wasting my time writing silly programs that didn't do anything
useful.
However, eventually things start to click (though it took me several years).
You'll get to a point where things make sense, and you can fathom how you'd go
about writing most of the software you use on a daily basis.
------
sunkencity
It took me about 5 minutes to get started writing code.
For some people programming can make sense, for others it's just a craft
that's in the hands. When I was at the university lots of people struggled
with "understanding" programming and they wrote little code, trying to more to
come to terms with what programming is rather than trying to do it. The people
that succeeded in learning to program wrote lots of code even though it was
hard to write the code and to understand. Some of the people that didn't never
entered their programs into computers and just ran the code by hand on a piece
of paper (to what practical use is that?).
For me programming is in the hands. When I learn a new programming language
it's total chaos for 1-2 weeks and then the new regime settles and I can
understand what I have been doing. After half a year of being exposed to a new
programming language even more of the teachings settle and I can begin
understanding more, but programming it's a practical art. I suppose it can be
different if you are more mathematically minded than I am.
I suggest doing ALL the exercises in a programming book - as fast as you can
without trying to really understand what is going on behind the scenes. The
secret is that you don't have to really understand what the hell is going on
behind the scenes, you just have to know enough to stay out of trouble and
that knowledge comes from experience. In the beginning of a programming career
it'll be impossible to guess what weird bugs might occur so just code and see
what happens.
In short, _you have to have a lot of practical knowledge of programming to
support your theoretical knowledge_ , otherwise you cannot do anything with
either. A chicken and egg situation, so it's best just to jump into the deep
waters and try to swim to the surface.
------
ajuc
I've got C64 and manual in German when I was 10 (I've only knew Polish at that
time, but who cares :)).
For a few years I only played games, and sometimes entered some example BASIC
code and tinkered with constans in code to see what will happen. I remember
that my copy of manual had error in some magic graphic system initialization
code, so I've never programmed graphic on C64. It was very frustrating.
Then I've got PC when I was 15 and I played with Turbo Basic, then Turbo
Pascal - then I've understood variables and it all started to make sense.
Since then I only feel like I know less, and less :)
PS - the most impressive thing I've seen that encuraged me to keep programming
was ASCII art adventure game written in windows batch files. I've thought - if
someon can do so much witch bat files, I can do everything with my knowledge
of Turbo Pascal :)
------
thibaut_barrere
Even once you can write code on your own, things are painful from times to
times, and I believe that's normal and a good thing.
It means you're pushing yourself out of the comfort zone, staying current.
But it's also important to detect when you should "give up" or not invest time
in something that is just too painful (I personally gave up on EJB, or
temporarily on C++ to go back to Pascal, then back to C++ a few years later).
------
csomar
Don't worry, you don't become a professional programmer in one day. It's a
long process.
I started programming (Qbasic) at the age of 12. My first programs were just
some combinations of blocks of code taken from the help document. Until 18, I
had been always an amateur programmer. Then Things changed. Programming can be
flipped from fun to work. I can get paid to have fun, so why don't do it?
I was introduced to the real world and I discovered that my knowledge, as huge
as it was (a little from everything) wouldn't really help building the
smallest application. I also can't write code on my own. I need another
application to copy from or re-use the code. My frustrations began, but they
lasted short.
I started reading books. My target was Visual C#. I read a book about .Net
fundamentals and another one about Visual Studio. I become a better
programmer. It did took me months to understand OOP, but I finished by
mastering it. And yay! I used collections.
I left Visual C# and decided to develop for the web. I planned to learn it
from scratch. From the start to the end. First, I need a strong knowledge
about the Client Side. That is HTML, CSS and JavaScript. The first two are
somewhat easy to master and learn. JavaScript is very expressive and can take
a while to master.
Actually, I felt in love with JavaScript and with it's prototypal and dynamic
nature. I'm 19 and I already built 2 scripts that I'm selling on code canyon
(I'm working on the third right now ;)) Suddenly while browsing on the web, I
found a small niche, that can be valued to $100K/year. It's hidden somewhere
and related to JavaScript. No one explored this domain (except low-quality
Open Source solutions) I made my researches, grabbed a related domain and
making a plan.
Learning Programming? Oups! I forgot about it!!!
------
CyberFonic
You need to design first - on paper, white-board, etc. You wouldn't build a
house without blueprints, so why try to write a big program without sketching
stuff out so that you can break down into manageable chunks.
If that doesn't help, then maybe you need to take a good CS course. If you
have only programmed in C++, then it doesn't sound like a comprehensive
background in CS.
~~~
jff
Exactly this. The image of the lone hacker sitting down and pouring out a
bunch of code straight from his brain is a romantic one, but if you haven't
spent a little time deciding what your data structures are going to look like
and how you're going to pass stuff around, etc., your code will be crap. "Just
coding it" leads to both frustration as you sit wondering what you should be
writing and why programming is so hard, and poor code. The poor code comes in
when you start throwing in stuff like one-use elements in your structs to keep
track of something you hadn't forseen, when a little bit of planning could
have alleviated that.
I'm certainly not saying you should go write up a design document complete
with UML and everything. That would be ridiculous, damn it I'm an engineer not
a bureaucrat! Just sit down and think (on paper) about how some of the
important stuff needs to look. It'll help a lot.
As for the second point, C++ does seem like a weird place to start. Go learn
assembly or C. Learning to write assembly is a process of continually solving
tiny programming puzzles, as you figure out how to hand-roll a loop and such.
------
wccrawford
I've been writing code 'on my own' since 4th grade. My school gave a class on
programming the Apple IIe and I loved it. My parents bought me a series of
computers, starting with a Sinclair 1000, and I wrote little programs for all
of them until they weren't good enough and we upgraded. I taught myself
several other forms of basic, then started on other languages like C, PHP and
Cold Fusion.
Maybe you need to stop 'learning' programming and just do it. Pick a task you
want to complete, possibly even a task you've done before, and just do it.
I learned all those other languages and language variants starting with the
same program: Sierpinski's Triangle. Why? Because I already knew the logic for
it inside and out and it was entertaining to watch. Every new language I came
across, I wrote another Sierpinski's Triangle program on it as my first
program.
------
ajuc
By the way, I have other problem with programming.
For some time it's not technical difficulty that prevents me from acomplishing
my programming goals, but my laziness.
I am very good at learning new languages, APIs, programming techniques, etc,
because that offers me fast positive feedback. I feel good because I've
learned sth new.
But to achieve anything I have to sit down to real, boring work, and this I am
to lazy to do. I prefer to try new cool languages than do any useful work in
languages I already know. I feel worse programmer than I was when I only knew
Basic and Turbo Pascal, no matter all the techniques, design patterns,
languages, etc, that I now know.
Do you have similiar experiences? How do you deal with this?
------
grigy
Can you explain how have you tried to learn? I have learned by books. Yes, it
took long time, but reading a good book is both fun and productive way to
learn. Unfortunately I can't recommend any of my books as they all were in
Russian.
------
rndmcnlly0
Programming, as a whole, is far larger than any one person could come to
comprehend in a single lifetime (imagine it being 1000x bigger). And to make
matters worse, it is continually growing more complex at a rate no person
could follow either!
Just when you think you've finally gotten a solid grasp on writing CRUD apps
in PHP, someone shows you Haskell, or Prolog, and suddenly realized just how
little you thought you knew.
That said, this all makes for programming being an excellent domain for both a
career and a passionate hobby. Easy to learn (a tiny corner) and hard to
master (a chunk you can really appreciate 10 years in) -- what more could you
want?
~~~
moggie
Disclaimer: I am very much a novice when it comes to any kind of programming;
I have only been working in PHP, which I know is considered a scripting
language and not a programming language, for a few months now. My
understanding is relatively limited.
"Programming, as a whole, is far larger than any one person could come to
comprehend in a single lifetime (...) And to make matters worse, it is
continually growing more complex at a rate no person could follow either!"
Isn't programming, essentially, the writing of instructions and providing them
to systems that act upon them? Reading through that statement I wonder whether
it's not _programming_ that is complex, but many problems that exist in
various fields of business or study—problems that need a programmed solution.
Please—if you don't mind—would you elaborate?
~~~
mechanical_fish
_whether it's not programming that is complex, but many problems that exist in
various fields of business or study_
Unfortunately, it's both. ;)
While PHP is indeed a programming language (the term "scripting language" is a
fairly meaningless label) when you work in PHP building web pages you're
likely to spend most of your time working on things that are computationally
tractable [1], but hard because it's just hard to translate the customer's
problems into code within the available budget. Your customer has a problem,
it's lots of work to map that problem onto code, it's hard to explain to the
customer just how much work it is to turn the "simple" activities performed by
(say) their administrative assistant into algorithms, and the result tends to
be expensive to document, deploy, and maintain. So, yeah, it's the problems
that seem to be hard, not the "programming" -- though, in fact, there is no
hard-and-fast distinction there.
But then there are problems in programming that are difficult to impossible,
all by themselves. The CS folks around here can point you at plenty of them,
but here's a famous one:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Travelling_salesman_problem>
which is a member of an entire class of famously hard-to-compute problems:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NP-complete_problems>
which (I believe) are not particularly rare, but which come up in various
disguises, and which must be carefully worked around.
On a somewhat more applied level, there are lots of difficult problems in code
optimization that you can work on:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_Level_Virtual_Machine>
Or you can spend your day exploring a giant set of data-storage possibilities,
each of which is right in its own way, and wrong in its own way:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAP_theorem>
[http://www.allthingsdistributed.com/2008/12/eventually_consi...](http://www.allthingsdistributed.com/2008/12/eventually_consistent.html)
One may suspect, of course, that this distinction I'm trying to draw between
"difficult programming" and "difficult problems" is not real; it's just a
matter of the degree of abstraction you use when describing the programming.
And I think you'd be right to suspect that. Programming is programming, and
programming is hard.
\---
[1] Though it is very, very possible to put something that is computationally
intractable into a "simple" web page. Web pages have no upper bound of
complexity.
------
skowmunk
If you really want to badly do it, then
Be patient with yourself, don't let frustration get the better of yourself,
keep trying, get immersed and give yourself some time.
For me, it took quite some time of interspersed half-hearted attempts, then
accidental and incremental opportunities to do increasingly complex tasks that
I could learn and scale (on different environments, SAP, NC, Excel Macros,
JMP), then some big time immersion over 4 weeks with David Power's books (his
style clicked for me). I am no expert now, but am doing stuff that I didnt'
think I could.
Would have to disagree about the "Natural" part of your comment. Keep working
at it.
Good luck.
------
davidw
Reading that makes me think I should call my parents and thank them again for
putting me in front of a Commodore PET at about 5. I may not be great at it,
but programming's always seemed fairly natural to me.
------
kapitalx
There are 2 aspects to programming that you might or might not be getting.
First is figuring out what the solution to your problem is, Second is to put
the solution on paper (write the program). Both of these take practice, but
the former is much harder to learn that the latter. Most programming courses
will teach you the latter. I wrote my first C program at 11, but I certainly
didn't understand what that * meant next to a variable at the time, but I
could think of the solution to the problem in terms of a program.
------
bobwaycott
I found programming a slow, grueling task until I had an ephiphany one day--
it's like learning any other [spoken] language. Now, I don't know if you're
particularly adept at picking up foreign languages, but the moment I realized
programming itself was the new language, I began viewing programming languages
through the lens of learning a new grammar or syntax or vocabulary, and
everything opened up for me. This was the same way things went with learning a
foreign language--once I understood that I was still just expressing myself
verbally, saying the same thoughts, it was only a matter of vocabulary,
grammar, and syntax.
Since then, I have picked up new languages that interest me far more rapidly.
I don't focus on how it compares to any other language I know or use. I don't
focus on it from the perspective of how classes and functions differ. I look
at any new programming language from a grammatical and syntactic view--and
once I have read enough code & documentation to understand its grammar and
syntax, I can start coding productively. That's the point I begin studying
classes, functions, built-ins, libraries--the grammar and vocabulary of
implementation.
I am by no means an expert programmer. I'd never call myself that. But I do
find that many would be better programmers if they understood the "language"
of programming. Learn as much as you can stand about data structures & types.
This is core--especially types. I have so often been frustrated by inherited
code that didn't show a solid understanding of data types (e.g., strings,
ints, arrays, etc.). Learn about classes, functions, inheritance, etc. These
are the building blocks of language, if you'll permit extending the analogy--
it's a bit like knowing how to structure a sentence, capitalize, punctuate,
etc. Learn the language of programming before you ever try to learn a
programming language. This is, perhaps, what you're missing. You're using a
programming language to understand programming. Take a step back and
understand programming itself first. Then sit back down with your language and
do programming.
Regardless of chosen language, the task is the same and the result should
(usually) be the same. The chosen language is really just an implementation
detail. You can write a program in Ruby, Python, C, PHP, etc., and it's still
going to be the same program. Most programmers, I believe, tend to choose the
grammar & syntax they like best. But the job of programming remains the same.
------
jasonkester
You're not going to like the answer, but:
Immediately.
Like in the first 5 minutes. When I was seven years old.
And frankly, if it didn't happen like that for you, you're pretty much
screwed.
Every good programmer I've ever known started doing it young and immediately
just "got it". Most mediocre programmers I know followed the path you're on,
learning it in a class in school, fighting to get things done, eventually
coming up with ways to solve particular problems, but never attaining fluency.
Try not to feel bad about it. It's just about the way your brain is wired.
Good programmers have a specific something wrong with their brain that makes
them ridiculously good at logic, and, sadly, not very good at much else. We
can overcome the "everything else" part through hard work, though we'll never
be as good at it as you. Similarly, you can overcome the programming part
through hard work, but you'll never be as good at it as us.
Sorry to be the one to break the news.
~~~
cturner
Try not to feel bad about it. It's just about the way your brain is wired.
No. I spent an entire summer staring at C and getting blocked on ridiculous
basic stuff because I had dumb learning techniques and kept being too
ambitious. I know a solid guy who did first-year C _three times_ before he
passed.
What got me through was learning to break problems up into tiny pieces,
practicing and learning patterns, and ignoring advice like "if you don't get
pointers straight away you'll never be a programmer".
For example, a pattern you use all the time is open a file, read some data,
close the file. More than half the people I've interviewed as programmers
can't do an adequate job of this from memory in their language of choice.
Practice just that until you have it memorised and can type it out at speed.
Look at programs as collections of patterns, and look for excuses to practice
dumb simple stuff (like scales in music). Something I knocked out over
breakfast on Sunday morning to price a collection of stocks: I have a file
containing a list of symbols. The program reads this data. It splits it into
tokens. It uses a yahoo web service to look up prices for them. It collects
the data in an object. I pass that to a formatter. Then I print it. I built
each pattern independently, and then stiched them together. Some people do
test-driven development to force themselves to construct software in this way,
and you might find that useful (I just do it that way without formalising the
tests).
amorphid wrote,
Maybe I'm the opposite of a natural.
I felt the same for five years _after_ I'd finished my degree. Work towards
mastering two things: (1) learn to reduce all problems to triviality. You can
use code to feel out a problem but do not ever try to cruise through
complexity - that's a path to certain failure. (2) Hone your tools (including
your memory for patterns) so that your cognitive load can be dedicated to
problems at hand rather than typing or looking up patterns for bread-and-
butter stuff like reading the contents of a file.
amorphid - I don't know what your problems are specifically but maybe some of
that will be useful.
Edit: I made a claim at the top that I couldn't reference. Removed.
~~~
jasonkester
_I spent an entire summer staring at C and getting blocked on ridiculous basic
stuff because I had dumb learning techniques and kept being too ambitious. I
know a solid guy who did first-year C three times before he passed._
Sounds like we're just using different definitions for "good". You seem to
define it as meaning competent, so yes, you and your friend fall into the
category of people who have successfully taught yourself to program computers
despite not being wired to do it.
I was talking about the Fred Brooks 10X types when I said "good". Those guys
didn't drop Comp Sci 101.
Again, please try not to take it personally. They're not better people than
you. They just took to computer programming like everybody else takes to
breathing.
~~~
thereddestruby
There's no magic wiring there - humans don't speak computer out of the womb.
Some people start programming at a younger age than others. Some move on, some
stick, some take it more seriously, some go on to become great.
It's like any other thing really. Football, Soccer, Jiujitsu, Ping-Pong, etc.
------
sethwartak
Work on something useful, something that has a goal.
Beating your head against a problem for hours is the best way to learn
something (because you learn all the ins and outs of that thing, not just the
part you were working on).
------
spooneybarger
Can you define what you mean by 'on your own'?
~~~
amorphid
Picked up a few books, wrote basic programs, etc. When it got harder, found
ways to ask people questions. I usually get frustrated when it comes to
solving puzzles that aren't linear programs.
~~~
spooneybarger
What is causing the frustration?
~~~
amorphid
I can see the solution in my head as a picture, not words. Maybe I need to
practice framing problems more.
~~~
Chris_Newton
That's interesting, and actually quite encouraging: it suggests that you do
think in terms of abstractions of the problem you're trying to solve, which is
arguably the most fundamental skill in programming. If your difficulty is that
you haven't got the mechanical process of turning your thoughts into code down
yet, that's a much easier thing to overcome.
Could you share with us what books and programming languages/tools you've been
using? While there are certainly common ideas, different types of language
take a different approaches to describing a program. Maybe whatever you've
chosen doesn't suit your way of thinking particularly well, and you would find
another tool more intuitive at this stage.
~~~
amorphid
The book I've had the most luck with is _Learning To Program_ by Chris Pine.
There's a question in the book about counting the sections of land on a
standard X,Y grid map. That would be a good example of a problem that blows up
my brain.
~~~
Chris_Newton
Which of these would you say is closest to your difficulty?
a) You don't understand what the problem means.
b) You can't describe an algorithm that would solve the problem in plain
English or "pseudocode".
c) You could describe the algorithm informally, but don't know how to code it.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Apple Races to Keep Ahead of Rivals - physcab
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/05/technology/companies/05apple.html?_r=1&hp
======
JunkDNA
I know this is going to make me sound like a fanboy, but I find the article
title amusing. The idea that Apple is "racing" to keep ahead of rivals and
feeling the heat is a bit silly. Only recently, a full _two_ years after the
original iPhone, are we seeing devices that anyone could really consider
competitive with it. Anyone familiar with Apple's culture knows that they have
not all been sitting on the beach drinking their Corona's this whole time. If
the past is any guide, they've been ruthlessly executing their R&D and product
development strategies.
~~~
quantumhobbit
"If the past is any guide, they've been ruthlessly executing their R&D and
product development strategies."
I read that as "they've been ruthlessly executing their R&D and product
developers". But now that Steve Jobs is back at Apple either could be true.
------
jemmons
"If they start making products people don’t want, and start losing users, then
Apple’s strategy will run into problems."
s/Apple's strategy/any company anywhere/
~~~
raganwald
I was also going to jump on that line. besides its lack of insight, what I
dislike about such lines is that they cast doubt on the company without any
basis whatsoever. I'm always reading these kinds of things: _If Microsoft can
find the right combination of features, price, design, distribution,
marketing, and coolness, Zune may supplant iPod as the it-gift this Christmas
and Apple will be in trouble._ WTF!?
~~~
berntb
I think the comment was trying to say "If Apple fails to live up to its
incredible standard".
That is a point, since Apple earn its money from unique usability values --
and it isn't obvious it will manage to continue doing that.
You really expect better from NY Times than from e.g. _me_ , but it was a
quote from some economist...
------
TweedHeads
AAPL was on their 70s in january, they're closing today at 145.
Almost doubled!
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Hiawatha – A secure webserver for Unix - arm
https://www.hiawatha-webserver.org/
======
arm
They have a login form here¹ that is vulnerable to an SQL injection, but
Hiawatha apparently protects it. Anyone with more experience care to explain
how?
――――――
¹ — [http://sqli.hiawatha-webserver.org/](http://sqli.hiawatha-webserver.org/)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Git is already federated and decentralized (2018) - dredmorbius
https://drewdevault.com/2018/07/23/Git-is-already-distributed.html?rev=1
======
dredmorbius
Discussed extensively a year ago:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18097439](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18097439)
Possibly worth a revisiting.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Dropbox stopping Public folders on new accts after July 31st - pudquick
Just received this email from them:<p>We wanted to let our developers know about an upcoming change to the Public folder for all user accounts. In April, we launched the ability to share any file or folder in your Dropbox with a simple link. This new sharing mechanism is a more generalized, scalable way to support many of the same use cases as the Public folder.<p>After July 31, we will no longer create Public folders in any new Dropbox accounts. If your app depends on Public folders, we recommend switching to the /shares API call. Public folders in existing accounts, however, will continue to function as before.<p>Please email us at [email protected] if you have any questions or concerns.<p>- Dropbox API Team
======
derefr
I wonder--will new users after the cutoff be able to just _create_ a folder
named Public in their Dropbox root, and have it act semantically like a Public
folder does now? I've deleted my Public folder before, and after recreating it
it's still "the" Public folder.
~~~
iambateman
Doubt it. It sounds like every folder is the "public" folder, in a sense. It's
about time, too.
------
pudquick
Relevant API:
<https://www.dropbox.com/developers/reference/api#shares>
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Princeton Concludes Kind of Government America Has, and It's Not a Democracy - davedx
http://mic.com/articles/87719/princeton-concludes-what-kind-of-government-america-really-has-and-it-s-not-a-democracy
======
officialjunk
Doesn't having an electoral college, by definition, make the US not a
democracy?
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Lenovo Statement on Lenovo Service Engine (LSE) BIOS - yuhong
http://news.lenovo.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=2013
======
chuckup
I hope Roel Schouwenberg does a writeup about this.
If you're wondering what this is about, see
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10039870](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10039870)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Railgun: a fast strstr(3)-like function - silentbicycle
http://www.sanmayce.com/Railgun/index.html
======
StefanKarpinski
Ugh. Licensed under "Code Project Open License":
[http://www.codeproject.com/info/cpol10.aspx](http://www.codeproject.com/info/cpol10.aspx)
Good luck figuring out what this is legal to use with.
~~~
duskwuff
There are several insane clauses to this license, but the worst is probably
§5f, which states that:
You agree not to use the Work for illegal, immoral or improper purposes,
or on pages containing illegal, immoral or improper material.
Good luck figuring out what that even means.
------
scaramanga
Seems difficult to verify any of the claims made, are there comparisons to
other algorithms? Any analysis? Description of the algorithm?
Maybe they're there and I missed them because the website made my eyes bleed.
~~~
ye
He has a ton of benchmarks on that page:
Searching for Pattern('an',2bytes) into String(206908949bytes) line-by-line ...
strstr_Microsoft_hits/strstr_Microsoft_clocks: 1212509/544
strstr_Microsoft performance: 248KB/clock
StrnglenTRAVERSED: 138478024 bytes
strstr_GNU_C_Library_hits/strstr_GNU_C_Library_clocks: 1212509/359
strstr_GNU_C_Library performance: 376KB/clock
StrnglenTRAVERSED: 138478024 bytes
Railgun_Doublet_hits/Railgun_Doublet_clocks: 1212509/321
Railgun_Doublet performance: 421KB/clock
StrnglenTRAVERSED: 138478024 bytes
Railgun_Quadruplet_8Triplet_hits/Railgun_Quadruplet_8Triplet_clocks: 1212509/335
Railgun_Quadruplet_8Triplet performance: 403KB/clock
StrnglenTRAVERSED: 138478024 bytes
Railgun_Mischa_8Triplet_hits/Railgun_Mischa_8Triplet_clocks: 1212509/348
Railgun_Mischa_8Triplet performance: 388KB/clock
StrnglenTRAVERSED: 138478024 bytes
BNDM_32_hits/BNDM_32_clocks: 1212509/505
BNDM_32 performance: 267KB/clock
StrnglenTRAVERSED: 138478024 bytes
...
~~~
acqq
Such a 'ton' of codes and dumps in that form is the problem in itself. George,
if you happen to read this once, I hope you'll get what I mean.
------
Sanmayce
@StefanKarpinski
The article is licensed under CPOL, not the code. Railgun is licenseless, one
developer working for Mozilla advised me to put it under BSD or public domain
- which is guess what: just another license, all my etudes/tools/functions are
100% FREE, not as pseudo-copylefters understand and try to sell their "Free"
\- which is ridiculous, especially the free beer part, if I am to share my joy
with my buddies I buy beers and give them for free UNCONDITIONALLY.
The bottom-line: Railgun is people's choice 'memmem', if you ever face the
possibility to go to jail, just call me I will tell the judges some copyleft
sagas of my own, that is to educate them how university professors are funded
with people's money (not only) and any derivate of those
algorithms/implementations should follow the same licenselessness - a nifty
word - everything else is just one perverted game for money, as I like to say
hypocrisy in action.
Regards to all, and no, my endless dumps are not to obstruct the usage, quite
the contrary - to provide field feedback - to give thorough comparisons, had I
had more than one computer I would have dumped several times more stats.
Best, Georgi
~~~
StefanKarpinski
Thanks for the clarification. The algorithm is very clever and the performance
quite impressive. It would be great if the legal status of the code were
clearer so that there was more chance of it making its way into usage by
people. Saying that the code is "free" in an article is not really
sufficiently clear to alleviate legal concerns people might have. The word
"license" is never mentioned anywhere in the page, while the code project
version [1] appears to state that the article and its code are under the very
unfortunate CPOL. If you want to make this code public domain – which is
great, btw – then I recommend that you put it up on GitHub (or BitBucket, or
something) with a LICENSE.md file that explicitly states that it is "public
domain". Use that phrase verbatim – it will greatly alleviate the uncertainty
and doubt about its legal status. Thanks for the cool algorithm.
p.s. I fully agree that code from publicly funded academic work should be open
source – ideally under a very liberal license like BSD or MIT.
[1] [http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/250566/Fastest-strstr-
li...](http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/250566/Fastest-strstr-like-
function-in-C)
------
dubcanada
That webpage is just wow...
It looks pretty awesome, I think it could be ported to PHP fairly easily.
------
codezero
This site is faster and has some code:
[http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/250566/Fastest-strstr-
li...](http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/250566/Fastest-strstr-like-
function-in-C)
------
robinhoode
Do projects like this ever get included into the mainstream? Would this be an
appropriate candidate for inclusion into PHP's standard library?
~~~
dannypgh
I would have hoped (but have no idea) that PHP simply uses libc's strstr in
their implementation of strstr. If this is the case, then this would need to
be included in the relevant libc for the platform you're using PHP on.
I was going to have that be my entire comment here, but I figured this was
easy enough to check - so I pulled php 5.5.7 source, and because of option
parsing complexities strstr ends up being implemented in terms of php_memnstr,
which is a macro for zend_memnstr, which in turn calls memchr and memcmp
repeatedly in a loop. So, no, libc's strstr doesn't seem to be used.
I'm a little unsure whether or why this has to be so complex, but after a
quick dip the water doesn't seem inviting enough for me to follow up.
~~~
maffydub
With regard to your comment about complexity, the cunning thing here is that
these algorithms find a substring in a string very quickly, often without even
looking at every character in the string.
For example, Boyer-Moore ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boyer-
Moore_string_search_algor...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boyer-
Moore_string_search_algorithm)) starts by looking at the end of the substring.
If it finds a match, it searches earlier. If it does not find a match, it can
skip ahead by several characters (possibly even the length of the substring,
depending on how the match failed). How much to skip ahead is a bit
complicated, but can be calculated in advance.
Consider searching for a substring consisting of 1000 'a's. Boyer-Moore starts
by looking at the 1000th (1-indexed) character. If it's an 'a', it then walks
back and checks the 999th, 998th etc. However, if it's not an 'a', it can
immediately skip on to examine the 2000th character, i.e. only looking at 1 in
every 1000 characters. As you can imagine, this can be very fast!
The Railgun implementation seems to be a combination of improved Boyer-Moore
(Boyer-Moore-Horspool-Sunday) with Rabin-Karp (which uses hashing). My
understanding is that these algorithms complement each other, so if you have
an input string that is particularly inefficient with one algorithm, it
automatically picks the other one.
Since many programs have string-searching in their innermost loops, spending
some time optimizing this function can be worthwhile.
~~~
mediocregopher
I think your parent was referring to why php's implementation is so complex.
~~~
dannypgh
Indeed. PHP is often criticized for having inconsistently named or patterned
libraries, and the response is usually "PHP is a relatively light wrapper to a
bunch of C libraries" \-- In fact I saw 3 versions of strstr in PHP core -
strstr, mb_strstr, and grapheme_strstr. I guess I would have expected one of
them to be a somewhat thin wrapper around libc's strstr.
As another commentator pointed out, libc's strstr assumes NUL-terminated
strings. Maybe php's doesn't? Which seems a bit odd to me in light of the
explanation of PHP's genesis as having roots in C, but stranger things...
I'm not surprised at all that libc's strstr would be complex.
------
jaytaylor
The site seems to be getting hammered, and once it loaded I struggled to read
it due to the low-contrast font/bg-color selection.
Here is a gist of the code:
[https://gist.github.com/jaytaylor/8102304](https://gist.github.com/jaytaylor/8102304)
~~~
acqq
The site has 5 MB of png files which show... well nothing relevant to the
topic. And the content of the page is mostly unfiltered output of some
strangely presented program pieces.
I would be glad to read that Sanmayce reads this or some similar input and
then starts to think about making his output really more accessible. But I
guess he likes it as it is. Bon Appétit.
~~~
gwu78
"I would be glad that [webpage author] ... starts to think about making his
output really more accessible."
This is how I feel when I hit a webpage that offers zero content without
having to execute JavaScript in a browser first.
For whatever it's worth, this page loads in less than 1 second and looks fine
in my text-only browser.
I guess in this case the web developer has chosen to recklessly punish users
who never disable images or JavaScript, in the same way some web developers
recklessly punish users who never enable such "essential features".
If the user's objective is to read and perhaps download some source code (as
in this "article"), there is arguably no reason that images or JavaScript
should be necessary.
"recklessly" here means the web developer does not intend to make users suffer
but he knows some users will suffer if he makes a certain design choice and,
knowing this, he makes that choice anyway
------
devicenull
Thought this was part of
[https://www.cloudflare.com/railgun](https://www.cloudflare.com/railgun) at
first...
------
nwmcsween
There are trade-offs it may be 'better' but it requires (I think) O(nm) space
while something like two-way strstr requires O(1).
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ambient backscatter tech allows devices to communicate, sans batteries - bkudria
http://www.gizmag.com/ambient-backscatter-unpowered-communication/28709/
======
lutusp
I wish technical writers would do historical research -- it would make their
writing more interesting and educational.
During the Cold War, the Russians gave the U.S. consulate in Moscow a nice
patriotic sculpture "as a gesture of friendship". The embassy did exactly what
the Russians hoped they would -- they mounted it on a wall in the ambassador's
office.
The device was actually an early example of an ambient backscatter device that
transmitted voices from the room by way of backscattered energy, readable by
the Soviets. It was years before the American embassy staff figured out what
was going on.
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thing_(listening_device)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thing_\(listening_device\))
Quote: "The Thing, also known as the Great Seal bug, was one of the first
covert listening devices (or "bugs") to use passive techniques to transmit an
audio signal. Because it was passive, being energized and activated by
electromagnetic energy from an outside source, it is considered a predecessor
of current RFID technology."
My question is -- why won't tech writers do their job? History is replete with
interesting example like this to spice up stories and educate people. Do these
writers live in a vacuum?
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Mercury OS – A speculative vision of the operating system - davidbarker
https://medium.com/@jasonyuan/introducing-mercury-os-f4de45a04289
======
cfarm
I think this would work for a lot of task related and basic work flows. How
would you imagine this working for more complex flows like developers or
engineering?
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: Examples of applications built with Node.js? - PeterRosdahl
It's hard to find any examples of applications built with Node.js. Do you have any examples on applications that are fully or partly built with Node.js?
======
jashkenas
Here's a little Node.js/CoffeeScript application I worked on for a contest at
a conference:
Site: <http://apiplayground.org>
Source: [http://github.com/jashkenas/api-
playground/blob/master/src/a...](http://github.com/jashkenas/api-
playground/blob/master/src/app.coffee)
The source is interesting because it demonstrates something that you can't do
easily with a regular Rails/Django app: nonblocking asynchronous calls to
remote APIs, with synchronous responses to the ajax request.
~~~
demet8
I like it....
------
samdk
The Node.js IRC channel displayed as a live Wargames-like map:
<http://wargamez.mape.me/>
It was discussed a while back on HN:
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1477084>
This source is on GitHub here: <http://github.com/mape/node-wargames>
Also, Node Knockout (<http://nodeknockout.com/>, a 'build a node app in 48
hours' competition) is happening at the end of August, and I expect some cool
stuff to come out of that.
------
kelvinjones
<http://transloadit.com/>
The developers wrote about using node on their blog:
[http://debuggable.com/posts/parsing-file-uploads-
at-500-mb-s...](http://debuggable.com/posts/parsing-file-uploads-at-500-mb-s-
with-node-js:4c03862e-351c-4faa-bb67-4365cbdd56cb)
------
dreur
In fact, what would be a use case of Node.js?
I know it is a rather interesting tech but other than that what do you/would
you use Node.js for?
~~~
thenduks
Being 'interesting tech' is a pretty good reason to experiment/learn something
in my book. But besides that:
\- You get to write JavaScript on your back-end and your front-end.
\- It's evented (like Twisted, EventMachine, etc) which has proven
popular/robust/fast recently (think FriendFeed).
\- It handles insane amounts of requests/second (due to non-blocking IO and V8
awesomeness among other things).
\- Did I mention you get to write more JavaScript? :)
\- It makes it pretty easy to implement servers for other protocols than just
straight vanilla http -- for example WebSockets implementations and so on.
------
transmit101
Here's my account of using NodeJS in <http://mixlr.com>:
<http://rfw.posterous.com/how-nodejs-saved-my-web-application>
------
jorangreef
Here's an offline-capable web application and underlying "network-straddling"
framework running on Node:
<https://szpil.com>
Node is great for handling many concurrent clients. It extends the V8
interpreter with excellent low-level APIs: Posix, Tcp, Http, DNS. If you need
to share Javascript code between client and server, Node is the best server-
side Javascript environment you could choose to use.
~~~
c00p3r
What about ffi access? Could I load libmysql.so and use javascript wrapper
around its functions or it must be implemented 'in pure Javascript'? ^_^
~~~
silentbicycle
It would probably block node, so you're better off running it in another
process and using the nonblocking IPC.
------
pierrefar
A very cool one: real time website analytics:
<http://demo.hummingbirdstats.com/>
[http://rdelsalle.blogspot.com/2010/05/real-time-web-
analytic...](http://rdelsalle.blogspot.com/2010/05/real-time-web-analytics-
using-nodejs.html)
------
maushu
You could try the Projects / Applications section @
<http://wiki.github.com/ry/node/>
------
cmelbye
GitHub uses it for their download links to get an archive of a repository.
There's a blog post about it somewhere.
~~~
dho
[http://github.com/blog/678-meet-nodeload-the-new-download-
se...](http://github.com/blog/678-meet-nodeload-the-new-download-server)
------
urza
Multiuser Sketchpad by Mr.Doob
<http://mrdoob.com/projects/multiuserpad/>
<http://mrdoob.com/blog/post/701>
------
secos
<http://whatcrackin.com> is a weekend project so I could keep tabs on who was
where during SXSW this last year.
node.js + google maps + faye comet library
------
revorad
R-Node - <http://www.squirelove.net/r-node/doku.php?id=start>
------
bootload
one place to look is github ~
[http://github.com/search?type=Repositories&language=java...](http://github.com/search?type=Repositories&language=javascript&q=nodejs)
and here's one to start with ~ <http://github.com/neerajdotname/node-chat-in-
steps>
------
javajunky
<http://howtonode.org/express-mongodb>
------
soli
my little multi rooms chat
<http://chat.solisoft.net>
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Studios pushing earlier movie rentals amid growing pressures - JumpCrisscross
http://www.latimes.com/business/hollywood/la-fi-ct-cinemacon-movie-windows-20170316-story.html?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=newsletter_axiosam
======
andrewclunn
All good news. Perhaps soon the theater will once again be synonymous with
live performance, while digital entertainment is for consumers to enjoy at
their leisure. With surround sound home systems, 3D TVs, and smart phones
everywhere, how long could this artificial scarcity last?
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: The Importance of a co-founder - p01nd3xt3r
I have a startup that I have been working on for a while now and it's nearing completion. I have had several people that wanted to become involved but things did not work out due to lack of dedication and/or lack of knowledge.<p>When applying to YC would it be better to to settle for a less than ideal co-founder or just continue working solo?<p>Note: I do not live in an area full of techies like SF so my options have been somewhat limited.
======
tonystubblebine
No doubt a co-founder is incredibly important if you're applying to YC, if
just for the reason that PG says so. However, I started my company without a
co-founder and we're doing fine. If you want to start a company, you shouldn't
let anyone tell you that you don't have the necessary prerequisites.
------
petewarden
I just finished the Techstars program as a sole founder, and it's _extremely_
tough to both deal with the demands of an incubator program (mentor meetings,
talks, pitch practice and investors) and make progress on the product too.
I don't know enough about your situation to give you meaningful advice, but
bear in mind you'll be making a big time commitment as a lone founder in an
incubator.
~~~
p01nd3xt3r
Well... the thing is that I am almost done with my product. I have landed
about 15 contracts so by the time I go up to SF I will have clients using the
software. Part of my concern is that I am so far along I am not sure if the
title "co-founder" would fit anyone.
~~~
zackattack
Wow, 15 contracts. What does your product do?
~~~
p01nd3xt3r
I spent lots of time working for ad agencies in NYC; while there I noticed
that their clients kept asking them to identify and engage influencers. They
constantly had a hard time with this and more often than not the client was
disappointed so I developed a utility that allows them to identify and engage
influencers.
By engage I mean; incorporate them into existing ad campaigns.
~~~
petewarden
That's spooky - I actually have a small contract with a PR firm to do the same
thing for Twitter and blogs, and I recently ran into another local startup
focused on this.
My advice would be to spend your time growing the business and possibly hiring
folks to handle the non-techie side if possible. There's a point at which the
risk has been lowered enough that the co-founder level of reward isn't
appropriate, and it sounds likely you're there if you're making decent
revenue.
------
spencerfry
I've had successful exits founding companies in all three ways (solo, with one
co-founder, and with two co-founders) and from my experience having two co-
founders has been the best experience. One co-founder means you get a bigger
slice of the pie, but also means that there's no mediator if the two of you
can't agree. And take it from me, there will be many times when you don't
agree. That's why I prefer two co-founders, because when two people take a
side they're often able to convince the third member.
~~~
spencerfry
I'll also add that the holy grail is: technical founder + product/design
founder + business/sales/marketing founder. That's what is currently working
for me.
~~~
p01nd3xt3r
I have all of those skills and I have been looking for a co-founder that does
also. Perhaps I should just focus on a co-founder that has one of the
aforementioned talents.
~~~
olefoo
You have all of those skills? Are you sure? Try to identify where you are
weakest, and find someone who is stronger than you in that area. You need to
be ruthlessly honest with yourself about your own abilities because if you're
doing it right you will be pushing your limits even if you're good.
~~~
p01nd3xt3r
Well... I am only a master @ the tech stuff but i am competent at the others.
~~~
spencerfry
You should focus on tech then and find a co-founder who focuses on either of
the other two areas I mentioned.
------
apinstein
You definitely need a co-founder. You _can_ do without one, but it's nuts. A
co-founder is good to bounce ideas off of, take care of tasks so you can focus
on your needs, and fill out your weaknesses.
If you are already the techie, then you don't need another techie founder
necessarily. You probably need the business strategy/marketing person to help
you work with early customers to fill out the product and generate revenues.
------
Tawheed
You really have TWO options here:
# Bring on a co-founder that is an obvious fit
# Have a plan that identifies what your own weaknesses are and how you plan to
mitigate them.
From the sound of this thread, there is no obvious co-founder that you know of
right now, so going with the latter is far more respectable and smart IMHO,
and is something I would bet the YC panel would appreciate a lot more given
your current time frame.
~~~
Tawheed
ALSO - to be clear, this is the right thing to do for your business... not
just the right thing to do for looking good in front of the YC panel.
------
hikari17
It's not too late to find the right co-founder before the application
deadline, and it's worth working hard to find one:
_Your YC application will be strengthened not just by having a co-founder but
by the process of seeking one out._ The triumphs and struggles you experience
will be significantly richer when you share them with someone else. No matter
how broad your expertise in the technical, business, and marketing aspects of
building a startup, there will be areas where a co-founder can supply
strengths you don't have.
Keep looking!
------
hwijaya
Reading dhouston (founder of DropBox) application -
<http://files.getdropbox.com/u/2/app.html>, i think it's okay to continue
working solo rather than settle for less than ideal when you apply for YC.
From my personal experience, i also recommend the same. It's like having a
relationship. Great relationship > solo > lousy relationship. You spend much
more energy and stress with less-than-ideal cofounder compare with going solo.
------
brandon272
Some feel that having a mediocre co-founder is better than having no co-
founder at all, which I wouldn't agree with at all.
Let me say that I think that having a co-founder is great, so if you can find
someone who:
1) Has passion for the idea and concept and is willing to share in the risk.
2) Is a hard worker and someone who can bring talent to the table. 3) Is
someone you get along with but can have fruitful discussions and respectful
disagreements with.
Then I would encourage you to bring that person on as a co-founder. But I
would not settle for anyone who lacked any of the above traits because you're
worried about not having a co-founder.
So, in summary, co-founders are great if you can find one, but certainly not
essential to startup success.
------
brk
Neither.
You need a good co-founder as a rule of thumb. You need to prove that at least
one other person believes in your crazy idea and is willing to work with you.
If you have had a few cofounder false-starts you should look very closely at
the root cause for that situation.
~~~
p01nd3xt3r
2 were older guys with families and could not commit. I want people that are
as dedicated and experienced as I am.
The other 1 simply could not code worth a damn so I felt like he was dead
weight.
------
teabuzzed
Solo is fine. You don't need a co-founder. Yes in many cases a good co-founder
will help your company succeed.. but in many other cases a bad co-founder will
most certainly help it fail.
If you haven't already identified one then you can forget about it. The
question is moot. You don't want one anyway. That's obvious. What you want is
someone who will work for you at a discount, a coder who likes the product and
the tech you're using and likes to get his/her hands dirty. A lot of people
are just happy to have good work and some input into what they think will be a
good product.. that would free you up to focus more on the marketing business
side of things which is just as if not more important than that product
itself.
------
pplante
The co-founder is incredibly important. They provide a sanity check, and
hopefully some ability to divide work up evenly.
Where are you located?
~~~
p01nd3xt3r
I was in Nashville TN for 3 months, then Louisville KY for 5 then Huntsville
for 2 now I am in L.A. I do contract work for banks so I have to move around
quite often.
~~~
pplante
Oh I see the bigger problem is the constant moving. There are bound to be
other individuals in most of those areas looking to do a start-up, but that
would require a huge investment of time for you to seek out the local
community. Makes sense to me.
------
DenisM
People are social animals, and go crazy when left alone. There are two ways
not to go crazy:
1\. Have a cofounder or two
2\. Talk with customers all the time
Either is fine to preserve sanity, but beyond that one gives you more muscle
power and the other gives you better direction. Your pick.
------
moonchuck
I am in an almost identical situation, also out of LA.
I am wondering where people would recommend looking for a co-founder if you
are in an area where the startup community is hard to find.
~~~
jubbam
Anyone have any experience telecommuting as a startup co-founder or is that
just adding yet another obstacle to a situation crowded with such obstacles?
~~~
p01nd3xt3r
I was considering this but I think that you really need to work with a co-
founder face to face.
------
icey
You should mention what sort of project you're working on, and you should
include contact information in your profile.
~~~
p01nd3xt3r
<http://ycombinator.com/ideas.html> #12
------
slay2k
Ehh, I know this thread's kind of dead but I just found it. I'm in LA, shoot
me an email.
------
sarvesh
Don't get a co-founder just for the sake of your YC application. In fact, it
might hurt you chances of getting accepted if you don't have the right person.
From what I have seen in the YC application you need sell not only your idea
but also your team. There have been cases where single person team have been
accepted, e.g., Dropbox.
You should keep looking for a co-founder irrespective of all this. You should
be able to sell your idea to someone smart and intelligent until then you
really don't know how good the idea is.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
.gay Generic Top Level Domain(gTLD.) is now open for public - mindfreeze
https://icannwiki.org/.gay
======
tuxxy
I preordered [https://areyou.gay](https://areyou.gay) a while ago.
I don't know what to put on it, but I would like to host a FAQ or something
for people who are questioning their sexuality and make it v wholesome.
~~~
arkitaip
I think you should transfer the domain to a gay rights org or similar because
this type of domain squatting is obnoxious. I mean, you didn't even have a
plan for the domain, just registered it for the novelty.
~~~
tuxxy
Isn't the open internet great? I can register a domain to use for my own
purposes so I can also have a voice.
~~~
ideals
You don't have a voice that's why you're asking here. So someone gave you a
good suggestion and you shit on it. You should let it expire or give it to a
group who actually wants to do something with it.
------
ffpip
I want to see whether Google will register google.gay
Will they sue me for registering it?
~~~
gruez
OTOH, you can probably get away with apple.gay, as long as you don't make your
site too specific to apple computers.
~~~
CydeWeys
Too late, already registered on February 19th.
------
bartvk
I'm not a native speaker; does gay unequivocally relates to romantic
preference? Or can it also simply mean "joyful"?
~~~
mmm_grayons
There's still a distinct meani g of happy. For some reason, though, people are
trying to stamp it out; I hardly hear it used in new writing.
~~~
CydeWeys
It's not remotely as nefarious as that, it's just that language evolves over
time and conflicting meanings that cause confusion tend to be weeded out.
------
alex_young
.gay sounds like a great way to champion gay rights for a given place or
brand. I hope it will become a typical pattern and actually do some good in
the world.
~~~
mytailorisrich
In reality, and like most things these days, this will only promote more
division and more identity politics.
------
rootbear
Just checked and yes, enola.gay is registered. That was inevitable, I suppose,
if a bit regrettable. (Edited for clarity.)
------
mindfreeze
Official Website: [https://www.ohhey.gay](https://www.ohhey.gay)
~~~
CydeWeys
You should add some context that this is the official promotional site for the
TLD by the registry operator.
------
hehetrthrthrjn
If your name is Gay, iam.gay would be very cool. MAybe I'll change my name by
deed poll.
------
mp3il
Someone should buy Haaaa.gay and just embed:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaG5SAw1n0c](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaG5SAw1n0c)
------
Simulacra
At last! What I've always wanted.
------
gruez
Before anyone gets any ideas:
>The use of .gay for anti-LGBTQ content or to malign or harm LGBTQ individuals
or groups is strictly prohibited and can result in immediate server-hold.
Prohibited behavior includes harassment, threats, and hate speech. For the
complete policy, see:
[https://toplevel.design/policy](https://toplevel.design/policy)
~~~
globular-toast
Who makes these rules? Who decides what is "anti-LGBTQ"? Will they keep adding
on more letters to LGBTQ as they become available?
~~~
buzzy_hacker
One of these questions is not like the others
~~~
globular-toast
The point of the "more letters" is probably not what you think, but rather
what if the entity in charge decides to add a new one (say, X) but it turns
out the L, the B and the T now feel alienated by the X? Or, conversely, what
if they decide _not_ to include some new group (say, P)? It just seems rather
nebulous and down to the whims of some mysterious entity with unclear motives.
~~~
krapp
What are you even on about?
There is no "entity in charge" of the LGBT acronym, no central authority
approving, adding or removing letters, or any particular concern over
"alienation" from adding or removing letters. It's a cultural idiom, not an
ISO standard.
Regarding its "nebulous" nature and "motives," quoting from Wikipedia[0]:
The initialism, as well as some of its common variants, have been adopted
into the mainstream as an umbrella term for use when labeling topics
pertaining to sexuality and gender identity.
The initialism LGBT is intended to emphasize a diversity of sexuality and
gender identity-based cultures.
Note that, while the quote mentions "LGBT" specifically that description also
applies to the "common variants" also described, including LGBTQ, LGBTQIA, and
others mentioned elsewhere in the article. I only point that out because one
of your flagged comments mentions how alienated and confused you are by "the
whole gay thing," so I wanted to be as clear as possible.
And if you're instead talking about the registrar, they're not a mysterious
entity, and their motives are clearly spelled out on their policy page[1].
[0][https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT)
[1][https://toplevel.design/policy](https://toplevel.design/policy)
~~~
globular-toast
Erm... I'm talking about the entity in charge of the TLD.
~~~
krapp
I still don't understand what exactly your concern is. The TLD doesn't even
contain any elements of the LGBT acronym, yet you seem deeply concerned about
them altering it willy nilly and this having some widespread negative effect
on the gay community.
This despite going through the unnecessary effort of making an entire,
completely off topic top level comment announcing how confused and alienated
you were by the gay community and how you wish they would just stop being so
visible so you didn't have to think about gay sex all the time.
I mean, I'm sure the gay community appreciates your concern and apologizes for
the inconvenience, but it seems like you're trying very hard to start a
tempest in teacup without even any tea to stir. Don't worry, the gays will be
fine.
Now relax and enjoy some Scissor Sisters:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHv0jW4p_xA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHv0jW4p_xA)
~~~
globular-toast
> Now relax and enjoy some Scissor Sisters:
> [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHv0jW4p_xA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHv0jW4p_xA)
Going out of your way to offend me. Nice. "Tolerant".
------
pixelpoet
nvidia.gay is up for grabs at 2k euros. I wonder if they'd buy it off you.
~~~
invokestatic
They will file a trademark claim against you under ICANN UDRP[1]. These are
arbitrated so they’re cheap to file and are very quick to resolve (compared to
courts).
[1] [https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/help/dndr/udrp-
en](https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/help/dndr/udrp-en)
~~~
pixelpoet
Thanks, although my example was none too classy, I had no idea what is
actually done in such cases.
------
rimliu
How about .straight and .bisexual?
~~~
cjsaltlake
The community for straight people is too disparate to be meaningful. .bi is
interesting though..
~~~
danellis
Two-letter codes are generally countries. In this case, Burundi.
------
numpad0
hxxp://ni.men.gay/wo?na-gar
------
ffpip
[https://read.if-you-are.gay](https://read.if-you-are.gay)
~~~
tobilocker
Well that'd be so funny... NOT!
------
nazgulsenpai
Why is it .gay and not .lgbt? Seems like the latter would be more inclusive.
~~~
brentm
The company that runs it also does other domains like .art, .blog, .design,
.group, .ink, .llc, .photography, .style and .wiki.
I'd say they just picked the most generic thing that they thought would make
the most money.
------
CydeWeys
Wow there's a lot of childish homophobia coming out in the comments here. I
(naively?) thought that HN would be better than that for some reason?
~~~
cuddlecake
Thinking that HN would be better than <insert any bad behavior here> is a bit
too hopeful of an assumption. Everyone is prone to bad / ignorant behavior. HN
users being no exception.
~~~
CydeWeys
I disagree. Some communities are actually much better than others on a variety
of issues. I mistakenly thought that this was an issue HN would have been
better and more mature on too, but I'm learning I was wrong about that.
But compare your average 8chan poster to your average HN poster and you'll see
that for sure not all online communities are the same.
~~~
cuddlecake
I don't even know how to argue on this. The average HN poster is definitely
better than the average 8chan poster.
But that does not mean all HN posters are free of being hateful/discriminating
against certain groups of people. Be it by accident or willfully.
~~~
CydeWeys
I for sure never thought that all HN posters were free of hate/discrimination,
I just thought they were better than we're seeing here. But I was proven wrong
in that.
------
mmm_grayons
Sadly, thatsso.gay is akready taken. That would have been a really funny
domain to have.
~~~
glckr
Why?
~~~
mmm_grayons
Because it's generally recognized that calling something gay is funny and a
way to insult it, at least here in America. Is that not the case in other
places? I've heard at least some of it in south and central america, though it
tends to be taken more personally there than in
------
mytailorisrich
This opens the flood gates for TLDs for every community under the sun (as long
as it is PC, of course). There is gold at the end of the rainbow... But really
this trend of multiplying TLDs _ad infinitum_ has been going on for years
because it's free money.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Things that are illegal to build in most American cities now - oftenwrong
https://twitter.com/CascadianSolo/status/1204306278173958145
======
gerbilly
>Bunkhouses/Roominghouses/SROs,
I read somewhere that the lack of rooming-houses significantly contributes to
homelessness.
They fill a gap between an individual apartment and your car or the street.
It's too bad these aren't allowed any more. I know those populations can be
hard to live with, but it's better than having them live on the street.
~~~
pharke
It could even be the driving cause behind the cycle of homelessness, mental
and physical health problems and addiction are often the result of or severely
aggravated by living in such deprivation. It's nearly impossible to get a job
without a fixed address and proper facilities for daily hygiene. I'd imagine
that a communal living environment would also have pro-social effects since
there is an expectation to keep yourself and your space clean and meals would
take place in a shared eating area.
As others have pointed out, rooming houses weren't only for the dispossessed.
They were a low rung on the ladder for young people trying to make a start,
for people between jobs or starting over in a new city, for the vulnerable
escaping bad marriages, for new immigrants and the elderly without support
systems. It's interesting that this list closely mirrors the precarious stages
and situations in life that can often lead to homelessness.
~~~
chrisdhoover
There was a long essay in the New York Review of Books way back in the mid
‘90’s that argued the point. SROs and casual labor are essential to combat
homelessness.
We lost SROs but we also lost casual labor. Business are criticized for not
providing full time positions with benefits. The idea that someone could walk
in and get day work helps folks who really don’t want to or can’t work full
time.
~~~
Ancalagon
I mean, I would argue casual labor should be fazed out because corporations
lobbied to make benefits (specifically healthcare) tied to employment. You
can't have your cake and eat it too, if we want a flexible workforce then
life-necessities cannot be tied to permanent employment.
~~~
Digory
Life necessities became tied to permanent employment because of income and tax
policy, not some corporate desire to control heath-care.
~~~
zanny
The tax code is totally corporate dictated and to their interests - the huge
bias against self employment is evident of that, whereas in a more competent
economy policymakers would acknowledge the strong growth potential of
incentivizing small business creation.
~~~
Digory
This was policy makers dictating to corporations, not the other way.
It was a product of (1) intense focus on wage freezes during the labor
shortage of World War II, and (2) the growth of unions, which focused on
winning concessions from management, not government.[0]
I agree it's a terrible policy. Corporate management now accepts and exploits
it. But it was _not_ a decision by 'capital' to spite labor or self-
employment. It is the consequence of 'progressive' tax, regulation and labor
policy.
[0][http://www.taxhistory.org/thp/readings.nsf/ArtWeb/67493CA6B8...](http://www.taxhistory.org/thp/readings.nsf/ArtWeb/67493CA6B837EDF285257B160048DD49?OpenDocument)
------
jhallenworld
I own and live in a two family house built in 1924. It's one step up from an
English row house in that you have windows on all sides. These, and New
England "triple-deckers" are pretty good. In Worcester MA you could buy an
1890/1900 triple-decker for $30k in the early 90s.. if only I was smart enough
to buy one then.
These are wealth generators in that renters are paying your mortgage.
My grandparents lived in a Queens NY row house (until 1970s white flight). I
have early memories of it, was a cool house. It had lots of fireplaces,
varnished wooden gates, wall sconces and shared back courtyard. My parents
lived in a 1950s single family house, but we gen xers rediscovered cities.
New houses around Boston are mass Lego block low rise apartments. They all are
corporate owned, which means they are expensive, and the rent goes up
automatically, but they sometimes have nice ammenaties.
SROs: I want to live the way Sherlock Holmes did. Mrs. Hudson cooked, cleaned,
answered the door.. did people really live like this in late 19th century
London? How much was the rent?
~~~
JCharante
I was kinda shocked to see Worcester mentioned here in the top comment. I and
some other students are currently paying $4350/mo for one of these triple
deckers that you mentioned.
I really prefer the zoning laws and building style present in Hanoi. Our house
is five stories tall, and some of our neighbors have houses with six stories.
Although they are not very big per floor (they may only have 2.5 rooms per
floor), they are very space efficient which allows for tons of amenities to be
within walking distance.
~~~
mc32
I'm not sure what houses look like in Hanoi but if they are kind of like the
3-5 storey houses in some parts of East Asia those are not great designs.
They’re like twenty feet wide and forty feet long with steep stairs connecting
the floors. To me the layout is awful. It wouldn’t be bad for one off where
the lot was oddly shaped but to have that as a default for attached homes
isn’t great.
~~~
Aeolun
Twenty feet wide and fourty feet long is like 6x12 meters per floor.
That’s as big as my entire house, and we can fit 4 rooms, a kitchen and a
bathroom in there.
2.5 rooms per floor would be the height of luxury.
Why do you say these are terrible?
~~~
lazyasciiart
I would say it because I've spent time on crutches, I have a parent in a
wheelchair and another one that just wouldn't have the energy for a staircase
much of the time, and staircases are a pain in the neck with small children
and make it harder to move appliances and large items of furniture in and out.
As a default form of housing, living across four floors is actively excluding
many people with disabilities and massively reduces the ability of aging
seniors to manage unassisted living.
~~~
Aeolun
These sound like complaints against any house with stairs. I think that
disqualifies like 95% of all stock regardless.
I think we’d find that the number of people that need single floor apartments
fairly closely follows the available supply.
~~~
zip1234
If the first floor apartment had ramp access then wheelchairs could get in.
Elevators are another option but somewhat expensive.
------
whiddershins
That first one, the single family homes with a shared courtyard?
We need more stuff like this! Backyards in Brooklyn used to be treated more
communally (before my time) which created a large shared space safe from cars
where children could play.
Now I just stare out my window and watch people basically never go in to their
yards.
What a horrible waste.
~~~
dhimes
I have a hunch it's the bit about the parking that is illegal. To be honest,
the whole post rubbed me wrong- like an industry shill or something trying to
start some grass-roots anti-building-regulation discord.
~~~
chrisco255
Uhh, have you heard about the housing affordability problem in many states?
The zoning regulations have created cookie cutter cul-de-sac neighborhoods
that have contributed to unnatural sprawl. It's very difficult to even
innovate in housing and commercial design due to these restrictions.
~~~
big_chungus
In Houston, the same thing has happened without zoning. Have you perhaps
considered that there is a massive market for "cookie cutter" suburban
housing? HOAs have also largely taken the place of zoning, on a hyper-
localized level. Furthermore, lots of other stupid rules apply, aside from
zoning, that limit the ability to build new housing.
~~~
shkkmo
That market was deliberately stoked by FHA and mortgage lending restrictions.
The thread itself points out that these issues are not soley the result of
zoning.
> While single family zoning was reserved for homeowners (read: White), multi-
> family housing was seen as being for renters, (people of color).
> State, federal, and local governments all conspired to limit homebuying and
> lending to whites for decades.
~~~
big_chungus
You're not providing any causal link. You are effectively positing that a
whites-only neighborhood will spontaneously organize into suburbia, but an
integrated one will not? Would you please provide some evidence or background
reading to support that?
~~~
chrisco255
I won't speak to the race issues but as a former realtor I dealt with FHA
loans and they have asinine restrictions on them. I had to get local ordinance
exceptions on a number of issues to get a loan approved for some buyers. It
was a mess. They required certain lot sizes and certain dimensions. And while
FHA has lost its luster a bit over the decades, it used to be a much more
common type of loan, as it was one of the few ways to buy without putting a
lot of money down.
------
exabrial
How to solve the housing crisis: get the government out.
Nobody should be forced to have an electrical outlet in the garage for an
electric car and the government has no business requiring that.
This is just my favorite example of thousands of silly regulations that are
put in place to keep the poor from becoming owners.
No poor person can afford a Tesla, yet:
[https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1095076_ca-to-
require-n...](https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1095076_ca-to-require-new-
buildings-to-be-wired-for-electric-car-charging-stations)
~~~
CalRobert
I upvoted you, but it's not black and white.
The government prevents someone from opening a lead smelting plant next to a
school (hopefully). They also force homes to have two exits from every room in
case of fire, etc.
But they also discovered manufacturing housing scarcities and _also_ making
massive, lifelong loans available for housing are a GREAT way to keep your
population working really hard to just barely keep a roof over their head.
Want to work part time and pursue art? Want to stay home and watch your child
grow up? Too bad, there's 10 more people who'll outbid you for your house, so
you have to design your life around income maximization.
These scarcities are created with zoning, parking minimums (maybe the most
horrible part), green space (aka yard size) requirements, ridiculously large
streets, density restrictions, etc.
The escape is to leave the city and work remote (honestly it's amazing what
having no mortgage and no rent does to your sense of agency) but that's an
option open to rather few people, and probably not for long as it becomes
normalized and wages adjust as a result.
~~~
kljoiutr
> They also force homes to have two exits from every room in case of fire,
> etc.
That can't be true? That makes 90% of existing homes illegal to build again.
~~~
CydeWeys
It's not true, but not for this reason. 100% of old enough buildings couldn't
be built again in exactly the same way. Codes evolve over time.
~~~
CalRobert
Why isn't it true? My understanding was rooms where people are likely to sleep
require two means of exit (e.g. door and a window).
------
habosa
Is there any possible way to break the American addiction on housing as the
primary investment / wealth for a family?
As long as existing homeowners are incentivized to drive up the price of their
home, none of our housing supply woes are likely to change. And who can blame
them? For most people their house is worth more than all their other
possessions and investments combined.
Besides the incentive issue, the fact is that most increases in home value are
not created by the homeowner. They're created by the city who provide streets,
infrastructure, security, etc. They're created by small business owners who
make a neighborhood attractive to live in. They're created by nearby employers
who bring in wage earners who create demand. The new bathroom the homeowner
puts in is a minor matter. Yet all of the value (minus property taxes where
applicable) is captured by the private home owner.
~~~
cheriot
> As long as existing homeowners are incentivized to drive up the price of
> their home, none of our housing supply woes are likely to change.
I'm not sure it's that logical. If you own land and tomorrow it's upzoned to
allow more density, the value increases immediately. Once the density creates
enough foot traffic to support cafes and restaurants in a walkable space the
value goes up again.
People are stuck on the idea that urban means blight so they need to zoning
rules to keep out "the riff raff".
------
xrd
It looks like the author might be in the NW. I'm curious whether they would be
optimistic about the zoning changes ([https://www.opb.org/news/article/oregon-
single-family-zoning...](https://www.opb.org/news/article/oregon-single-
family-zoning-law-effect-developers)) here
([https://olis.leg.state.or.us/liz/2019R1/Measures/Overview/HB...](https://olis.leg.state.or.us/liz/2019R1/Measures/Overview/HB2001))
~~~
davidw
Yes, he's from Oregon. HB 2001 is good news, but we need to allow for more
variety, and it'd be wonderful to also allow light commercial by right, so
that, say, you can walk to a corner store instead of getting into a gas
guzzling SUV just to do something people in many countries can do on foot.
~~~
Legogris
> allow light commercial by right
Is this a US-specific term? What does it mean? (Only really found
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_light](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_light))
~~~
davidw
"By right" means that you can just build it without having to apply for any
specific exceptions, go through hearings, etc...
"Light commercial" means things like small corner stores, barber shops, local
restaurants, stuff like that. There are legit reasons to not want, say, a
tannery right next to housing.
~~~
Legogris
Ah, right, indeed. Related to the thread, I don't see how banning "#5
Live/work units of ground level retail and second and third story housing"
makes any sense. These can be a game-changer for local town life.
~~~
dsr_
The only bad thing about them is that they tend not to be accessible for
people who have difficulty climbing steps... which is fine as long as there's
lots more available housing which is accessible.
I lived in an apartment over a specialty supply company one summer; it was a
great bicycle commute to work, walking distance to a supermarket, and nobody
was actually in the ground floor at the times I was home, so they certainly
didn't care if I played music loudly or thumped furniture across the floor.
------
dragonwriter
No citations are provided to support the “most American cities” claim, and
many of them are common even in the places best known for anti-development
NIMBYism, so I suspect that their association with the thread title is
frequently inaccurate.
~~~
maxsilver
Yeah, this tweet-complaint list is simply not true. SRO/Tenements are
obviously not legal (for good reasons, imho). But the other examples in the
tweet thread are legal in most cities, and these get built all across the US
_literally every single day_.
In my small-ish Michigan city alone, we have multiple examples of #1, #3, #4,
#5, #7, and #8, all of which have been built this decade. The same is true in
Minneapolis, and Portland, and Seattle, and Chicago, and others.
~~~
zip1234
I think you are missing the point if you think the author implies that they
are completely banned. They are obviously not all banned. The issue is that
they are banned in certain places. Most cities strictly regulate where you can
build different things and have restrictions on setbacks and parking for all
of those things. In my midwestern town, I could not tear my house down and
build an apartment. It is zoned for 'single family 2nd density residential.'
------
duelingjello
Anything to make new housing as expensive and complicated as possible so
NIMBYs don't have more housing inventory to attack their valuations or more
neighbors too close to them. The consequences of this selfishness are more
expensive rents, more expensive housing and more homelessness.
------
PascLeRasc
There's something really beautiful about streets without setbacks like this
[1]. I can't put my finger on what it is but they're all over Amsterdam and
Japan, and they always make me so happy to walk though. Does anyone know what
it is about these?
[1]
[https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ELaN6w_UUAAQbOC?format=jpg&name=...](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ELaN6w_UUAAQbOC?format=jpg&name=medium)
~~~
Kungfuturtle
No cars?
¯\\_(ツ)_/¯
More seriously, my guess is that you enjoy those streets because there's so
much more character to them. They are generally part of an older, more storied
urban core, so the streets are more imbued with a "there"ness of the
community.
Contrast this with the experience of walking down a recently-gentrified
street.
------
sharpneli
Rowhouses are de facto banned almost everywhere in US? It’s relatively popular
way of living in Finland. It’s something between a highrise apartment and your
own house.
I’ve always wondered why US seems to lack those and that neatly explains it.
~~~
Frondo
I spent some time in Philadelphia, where nearly all of the housing in the city
core is rowhouses or apartment buildings. It's _fantastic_. It makes a dense,
walkable city, and people still get the amenities of their own house with a
little tiny backyard (big enough for a fire pit or grill). Also better for the
environment when heat doesn't radiate off all four sides of a house.
They've been building some of what they call row homes in the PNW, but these
are still detached houses (no adjoining walls). It's better than it used to
be, you can fit three houses on the space formerly reserved for one or two,
but go the extra mile and connect 'em together.
~~~
burfog
I think you really should have enough room for scaffolding. How are you going
to take care of a wall that is physically touching your neighbor's wall? That
wall ought to get inspected at least. It might need paint. If one house starts
to collapse onto the other, then both have problems. You're also at a higher
fire risk, even if the walls in the middle can't burn, because embers can more
easily go from one roof to the other.
~~~
drewbug
Yeah, the Philly MOVE incident led to 64 other buildings burning.
~~~
Frondo
I think the scope of that fire is better attributed to: the police dropped _a
bomb_ from a police helicopter on the home where people were living, and it
was a poor neighborhood that may not have had firewalls between dwellings.
I've seen fires there where the shared walls are brick, and those firewalls do
work.
~~~
ceejayoz
They also deliberately didn't put the MOVE bombing fire out.
------
ChuckMcM
At least in the bay area the retail on the bottom, housing on the top is now
quite commonly built. There are new units in Mtn View, Sunnyvale, Santa Clara,
and San Jose. And maybe if the courts don't stop it, Cupertino :-)
------
monksy
> 5 Live/work units of ground level retail and second and third story housing.
> The US often doesn't allow inclusionary zoning like this unless development
> is denser.
4+1s are fairly common now. Most new development in chicago has this.
~~~
asdff
They are popping up everywhere in LA. A lot of parking is still required,
however, which ups the builds cost and moves those businesses and apartments
into another economic class. Normally this wouldn't be an issue, but the only
places cheap enough to buy and raze are places currently occupied by the
working class, who will still have their jobs in town but will end up with
longer commutes to affordable neighborhoods.
------
fnord77
> #2 Bunkhouses/Roominghouses/SROs, which have multiple people sharing a room,
> or individuals getting small rooms, with shared kitchen and bathroom spaces,
> for short to medium term living.
Aren't there a few startups doing this and marketing them as communal living
for young techies?
~~~
wahern
SROs don't _have_ to use communal bathrooms. A family member lives in what's
classified as an SRO, but in the ritzy Cow Hollow neighborhood. It's a tiny
unit but has its own bathroom, including shower, and a very tiny kitchenette
(sink, no stove). It's probably smaller than most of the more modern SRO'ish
units that have recently been built around SOMA, even though some of those
rely on communal spaces.
Other than the size of the units, it's a typical apartment building--office
workers, teachers, retail workers, and even a dentist with a house in Marin
who keeps a unit so he doesn't have to commute during weekdays. It was
probably built in the 1940s or 1950s, before zoning laws stopped construction
of such buildings.
------
greggman2
It would be nice to know the why's for each of these laws. I'm sure some
seemed at the time, or maybe still do have legit reasons.
Houses, or rather apartments with a shared kitchen and maybe shared bathrooms
are still a thing in Japan.
There are "share houses" of which maybe the most famous/notorious is Sakura
House that has many locations and caters to visitors.
There's also [https://www.social-apartment.com](https://www.social-
apartment.com) which is targeted more at locals. I've thought about joining
one for the social aspect. I think there would be a market in other countries,
especially if there was an activity director making sure events happened. I
didn't know it would be illegal in the USA.
There are also high end apartments that have an activity "roof top". A friend
lives in one. The rooftop has a restaurant, live entertainment, indoor and
outdoor areas, a pool, and rooms you can reserve for private parties.
Tangentially, lots of old USA movies show characters living in boarding
houses, having a room to themselves but sharing meals. Seems nice in the
movies. No idea how it was in real life.
~~~
nikanj
Mostly: Poor people live in these, or even worse, poor black people.
Most of the zoning laws were not written recently, and they do carry a heavy
burden of being both anti-poor and racist.
~~~
gerbilly
> Most of the zoning laws were not written recently, and they do carry a heavy
> burden of being both anti-poor and racist.
It's not accidental either, they were written that was as a neutral way of
implementing racist policies.
Just like the war on drugs was a smokescreen for Nixon to attack the hippies
and peace protestors.
------
gpvos
Key sentence:
_> Said bans were put in place largely for racial reasons._
------
thorwasdfasdf
The problem with all these regulations is that it completely stops all
innovation. Imagine what the internet would have turned out to be if, from day
one, it was heavily regulated as housing. Imagine if every company or every
developer had to get a permit before building any website and every website
had to look a certain way with certain margin. We'd be nowhere.
Housing, desperately needs permission-less innovation (completely
regulation/zoning free). Maybe not everywhere. But, come on, CA has 163,707
square miles, can we just carve out a couple of those, even if it's just 100
or 200 or so (with enough economies of scale to attract serious VC money), in
an area that has no NIMBYs, for build whatever you want and let builders and
innovators innovate. We can take what's working and slowly apply it other
areas.
At the current rate, the way things are, we're never going to see any progress
in housing.
~~~
frgtpsswrdlame
People should pay for the costs of the negative externalities they impose on
others, something that seems to be missing in the town you imagine. This is
one thing I think YIMBYs constantly miss. "Build, build, build!" and when
someone criticizes they say "you're just afraid to lose money on your house,
housing should not be an investment" and I think that captures part of it, but
it's not just that a $800k house is now worth $700k, it's that the entire
character of the house is changed when it's in the shadow of a skyscraper for
6 hours a day. In this case the homeowner has not just lost money, they may
have lost what made them desire the house in the first place - a calm
neighborhood, a sunny garden, a beautiful view, easy parking, a neighborhood
populated by similarly wealthy individuals. Now you probably take issue with
at least one of those, but there are others that are perfectly reasonable and
until YIMBYs confront the massive negative externalities they wish to unleash
on people they'll continue to look on in disgust as entire communities show up
to their council meetings and shout and howl and kill YIMBY proposals.
~~~
zozbot234
Agglomeration economies lead to _positive_ externalities on balance, not
negative ones. And YIMBY isn't arguing that one should build skyscrapers next
to single-family houses. One can increase density in a rather gradual way, and
a few skyscrapers here and there don't even give you a density advantage
compared to building a far greater number of mid-rise and high-rise buildings.
~~~
danudey
This is very true. Vancouver has a huge housing issue because the main options
are single-family homes (which are inaccessibly expensive) and ~20 storey
condo towers (which are also inaccessibly expensive).
Then you end up with people opposed to densification because they only way
that we can get sufficient density is to take this one small space and build
20 storeys of housing on it. If we wiped out one single-family neighborhood
and replaced it with mid-rise residential with ground-floor commercial, it
would be much more of a _neighborhood_ and fit a lot more people sustainably.
Instead, they fight against any densification and argue that a three-storey
walk-up is going to "change the character of the neighborhood" (because people
who can't afford to buy homes will be able to live in their neighborhood) and
now everyone is screwed (except the people who own).
~~~
lawnchair_larry
That is definitely not why Vancouver has a housing issue. We all know why
Vancouver’s housing market is distorted.
------
nullc
Most by what metric? A great many cities in the US permit most (all?) of these
things.
None of them are popular to build now, however, where they are allowed.
~~~
dredmorbius
Examples?
------
wang_li
The setbacks complaint seems mainly to be that locals can't privatize, or
otherwise restrict usage of, public spaces.
~~~
jessriedel
How does having my house near the street on my lot restrict public usage of
the street?
~~~
cannonedhamster
The sidewalk. And the street right of way extends beyond just the physical
street in most places.
~~~
jessriedel
This comment is pedantic. Yes, there are special regulations about homeowners
in some areas having to place and maintain sidewalks along their property. (In
other areas, they are owned and/or maintained by the city.) That's very
distinct from setbacks, which prohibit construction for a depth much further
than the width of the sidewalk.
------
biesnecker
For what it's worth, I recently bought a new-build condo-ownership model
townhouse in Silicon Valley that is effectively a row house. Six units in a
building, three stories each. It's not quite the same, but it seems to be cut
from the same mold.
~~~
asdff
How is the shared wall? I used to live in an old brownstone sorta place and
that thing was like a tomb in terms of noise.
Now I live in new construction which is timber framed, cheap drywall, and
cheaper california insulation, and I can tell what specific video game my
neighbor is playing along with his bowel schedule. Once this lease is up I'm
running for the oldest heaviest looking building I can find.
~~~
biesnecker
Remarkably good. We were worried too but we hear almost nothing through the
walls.
------
text70
Houston is one of the only cities in the US that I know of that does not have
any zoning laws. All of these would be possible to build with zero-lot lines,
no commercial or residential zones, and no height restrictions to speak of.
~~~
lurquer
This is a myth.
Enormous chunks of land surrounding the three airports have actual zoning.
The rest has de facto zoning. It just isn't called zoning. This is why Houston
looks pretty much like any other city with zoning.
A lot of what can and can't be built is covered by deed restrictions, which
are enforced by the city. (i.e., a developer may put a restriction in the deed
stating that only residences can be built, and no commercial activities.)
In addition, there are gazillions of 'land-use' ordinances that control the
height of buildings, lot size, parking, etc.
While it would be kinda neat -- as an experiment -- to see how a city would
develop without zoning, Houston sure as heck isn't that example.
[https://kinder.rice.edu/2015/09/08/forget-what-youve-
heard-h...](https://kinder.rice.edu/2015/09/08/forget-what-youve-heard-
houston-really-does-have-zoning-sort-of/)
[edited to supply link]
~~~
InitialLastName
> While it would be kinda neat -- as an experiment -- to see how a city would
> develop without zoning, Houston sure as heck isn't that example.
It seems to me that Houston is a great example of that experiment: in the
absence of a formal centralized zoning system, the vacuum of limiting who can
build structure x in location y is filled by informal and labyrinthine
arrangements.
~~~
lurquer
Indeed. This idea always comes to mind when I hear people wonder out loud what
a true 'anarchist' society would look like... I privately answer, "Pretty much
exactly like what we have now."
~~~
antognini
Reminds me of a famous essay in the anarchist literature: "Do we ever really
get out of anarchy?" by Alfred Cuzán
[https://uwf.edu/media/university-of-west-
florida/colleges/ca...](https://uwf.edu/media/university-of-west-
florida/colleges/cassh/departments/government/cdocs/II.A.1.-Cuzan-1979-Do-We-
Ever-Really-Get-Out-of-Anarchy.pdf)
------
jcomis
#2 does not seem to be true in some cities. There are a lot of new "pod"
apartment buildings with shared kitchen facilities. There's one right across
the street from me in Denver.
~~~
jessriedel
Sure, housing regulations are hyper local, so there will be exceptions. The
fact that some many localities have converged on banning the same stuff is
still remarkable, and evidence that it's being driven by the same forces
rather than being a tailored response to details of a particular community.
~~~
lolsal
How is that remarkable? Local governments governing locally sounds completely
normal to me.
~~~
jessriedel
Local governments are widely acknowledge by political scientists to be be
lower quality than national governments, believe it or not, and to have
significantly less oversight. The argument for giving them huge power to
dictate what people can and can't build on private land is that local
regulations can be more tailored to local details. But if all the local
governments are, e.g., setting high minimum plot sizes, this is not them
responding nimbly to local details; it's just a way to keep out poor people.
~~~
korethr
> Local governments are widely acknowledge by political scientists to be be
> lower quality than national governments
Since you're invoking authority here, I'm gonna say [Citation Needed].
> But if all the local governments are, e.g., setting high minimum plot sizes,
> this is not them responding nimbly to local details; it's just a way to keep
> out poor people.
Or, it could be as simple as a locality copying what seems to have been
successful in other nearby localities, with not enough people speaking up with
compelling evidence to the contrary.
Believe it or not, not everything bad that happens to poor people happens out
of malice directed their way. Sometimes, bad shit happens to poor people,
because, being poor, attempting to change conditions to make less bad shit
happen would further strain their already stretched-to-the-limit resources.
And there's one resource that anyone who wants to participate in local policy
making _must_ spend without exception, one which those struggling to make ends
meet will tend to have the least of: Time.
There is no Machiavellian mustache-twisting involved in keeping the poor out;
the poor never show up to give their input on the policies that might
adversely affect them. It's kinda hard to even know about the 90 day advance
notice postings in town hall when you're working 2.5 jobs to keep food on the
table and the heat on during the coldest winter months so you don't freeze,
and the public bus routes you rely on don't even go near city hall. Never mind
having the time to think about the Nth order effects of such proposed policies
to figure out if they'd adversely affect you, or then getting down to city
hall for the planning meeting to give the council or committee your 2 cents. I
mean, some localities are better than others about giving all of their local
socioeconomic strata sufficient advance notice and a fair chance to provide
input, but there's a limit to what's reasonable. Eventually, time for input
and comment will have to be ended so a decision can be made, otherwise nothing
would ever get done.
If the above sounds sucky and unfair, well, you're right. It does suck and it
is unfair. But if you want the conditions of the poor to suck less and become
more fair, you're going to have a hard time being effective if you are too
quick to ascribe results to malice.
------
toomuchtodo
[https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1204306278173958145.html](https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1204306278173958145.html)
------
subject117
Cronyism. Outlawing building types like these hurts middle and low class
individuals. They take advantage of the public by citing “safety” reasons but
really this just lines up the pockets of larger real estate developers and
their political cronies. I imagine it is more correlated with left-leaning
cities but wouldn’t be surprised to see cronies on the right too
------
Dan_JiuJitsu
I think a lot of this is due to people in the neighborhoods not wanting the
neighborhoods to change. It's this way in the USA precisely because of citizen
control. Single family home neighborhoods are some of the nicest places to
live in America. Why shouldn't the people who have invested in the community
get to decide how the neighborhood evolves?
~~~
imtringued
That would be perfectly okay if they didn't invite more workers to their
cities.
------
StillBored
There is also the building code related things, you can't build a texas
dogtrot, or in many cases middle eastern compound style houses (thick walls,
high concrete fence) anymore either. Never-mind outhouses, despite them being
all over parks/etc these days under the name "composting toilets".
------
irrational
Come to the suburbs of Portland, Oregon. Tons of new rowhouses. Live/work
units are increasingly common.
------
klyrs
A family friend was the proud owner of the last outhouse in Boise city limits.
All things considered, I'm not too shocked at this omission...
Also it's illegal to build chicken coops in many cities. Not sure how common
that one is, though
------
tingletech
I don't think you can build new trailer parks in most of the U.S.
------
gok
Minimum housing size regulations (which is really what the source is about)
has similar impact to minimum wages. It gives lower middle class people bigger
homes / higher wages but increases homelessness / unemployment.
~~~
Gibbon1
Maybe I'll try and find the talk again. But saw one where the speaker showed
slides of various housing units. They varied from a very nice looking art deco
style apartment in Redwood City at something like 220 units per acre. And
single family homes in Los Vegas built and zoned for 4 units per acre.
------
ascari
Meanwhile most of these are what you get in England
------
rambojazz
What a sensationalized title. These are urban regulations and they exist in
every city.
~~~
degosuke
I'm on edge whether the title is sensationalized or not... It does state the
fact that it is illegal to do these. I would even see it as a better
reflection of the current status then perhaps stating "Urban regulations
prevent building these types of buildings."
------
faissaloo
When there is so much regulation there is a point where the only real law
becomes "have you sufficiently annoyed someone"
~~~
mywittyname
Most zoning laws are the result of a group of politically-connected
individuals saying, " _they_ shouldn't be able to do _that_ " and using their
influence to stop such behavior.
Some are really just there to ensure that developers don't cheap out on the
stuff in the walls in order to cut costs. But I don't think people are really
complaining about requirements for the species of wood required for framing or
the number of electrical outlets per square foot.
------
vorpalhex
Some of these were removed from zoning because they weren't fantastic housing.
I've been in a bunch of those old boarding houses (several existed near my
university) and they were relatively terrible structures with minimal privacy
and universal rodent issues.
~~~
aero142
But they were cheap. Which is a really great thing when you are broke but
still want to go to college.
~~~
wolfram74
If the health situation is bad enough, it's just making externalities via
health risks for everybody those residents interact with, since they're now
vectors for whatever diseases crop up.
~~~
danShumway
Unless the health risks are greater than those for homelessness, we shouldn't
care.
Absent additional research, my prior is that homeless disease vectors are
_probably_ worse, since people in that position have fewer shelter options
from the elements and more direct exposure to the public.
Houses don't have to be perfect, they just have to be better than what we have
right now. I mean, even in a bad situation... there are rats on the street.
It's very difficult for me to imagine someone in that condition looking at a
house and saying, "no, the street is cleaner."
Maybe there's an extra perspective I'm missing.
------
Legogris
> Said bans were put in place largely for racial reasons.
Is this really true for all of them? I see in the thread that
> Said bans were put in place largely for racial reasons.
Some of the ones who are not NIMBYism or the above I can absolutely see how
they could be motivated in an effort to slow down/hinder certain socioeconomic
dynamics.
> #2 Bunkhouses/Roominghouses/SROs, which have multiple people sharing a room,
> or individuals getting small rooms, with shared kitchen and bathroom spaces,
> for short to medium term living.
In a poor environment and/or when housing is scarce, these easily become hosts
for abusive or exploitative relationships between landlord and tenants or
shitty housing.
> #1 Bungalow Courts. Single family homes with shared walls and a communal
> courtyard. And no car parking requirement.
Aka gated societies
EDIT: Downvoters, why? Care to reply? Is this question ignorant or irrelevant
to the conversation? I'm not defending any of these or claiming that they
actually have the desired effect.
~~~
BryantD
I don't think this is an insane question. My take:
#1 -- gated communities are way bigger than a bungalow court and are much
easier to isolate from the community around them. I think this correlation is
a misapprehension. Here's a highly renovated example:
[https://seattle.curbed.com/2018/4/4/17200290/pine-street-
cot...](https://seattle.curbed.com/2018/4/4/17200290/pine-street-cottage-for-
sale-rsl)
See how it faces the street like any other house, but there's a little private
shared area in back? It's not self-contained like a gated community can be.
#2 -- yep, there's the potential for abusive relationships. There is no rental
model that works without strong protections for tenants and, yes, landlords.
So that problem isn't inherent to rooming houses. However, the power
relationship is usually tilted towards the party with more money and that's
likely to be accentuated in this type of housing. You gotta be careful.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
World wide wasteland - igzebedze
http://www.zemanta.com/blog/world-wide-wasteland/
======
philiphodgen
@Swizec, too bad your message was negated by the video pimping Zemanta at the
end. Outbound links to cool stuff generated by a machine? That's exactly what
you were mourning.
Love cannot be automated. Certain battery-operated appliances have been
invented to attempt this (I've heard), but they can't replicate the real
thing.
Links to good stuff cannot be automated. Selecting good stuff to link to
requires good taste and judgment. Humans exercise good taste and judgment.
This is the source of the value you miss from enthusiastically, freely given
recommendations: "Hey, look here! This is really cool!"
A human did it.
A recommendation machine like Zemanta's is attempting to do the same thing
that link farms, bent SEO, etc. want to do. Zemanta's come-on is a bit more
appealing, perhaps. But its goal is the same. Listen to the message in the
video.
The fact that love does not scale is liberating. I do not need a million
followers. Or 50. All I need is to sit and talk to my friend Roger over a cup
of coffee. Or help my 8th grader gently towards understanding the mis-magic of
PHP. Or say "I'm sorry" to my wife when I screw up.
Or throw a great link on my website when it makes me happy.
TL;DR
Love doesn't scale. That's why it is so valuable.
Only humans love. Machines cannot.
Be human-sized. And give love.
~~~
olliesaunders
This Zemanta thing reminds me of the Alexa toolbar—I think that’s what it was,
I’m going back as much as a decade here—that shows you links related to the
page you are currently already on. Back in the day people were really excited
about the Alexa toolbar for some reason.
~~~
andraz
Well Zemanta tries to help the author instead of reader. That might sound like
a small difference, but it actually is a huge shift - author is a human filter
and things that the end reader see are not computer-recommendations, but human
selected ones.
------
Swizec
APOLOGY ABOUT THE SUBSCRIBE POPUP: I am the author of the piece, I did not
know popups existed on this blog (I usually write on /fruitblog).
If I knew about this, I would insist on posting on the other blog. Stern words
are being said right after I find whomever's responsible.
You have my apologies.
edit: it's been turned off.
------
knowtheory
What?
We're complaining about the disappearance of _blog-rolls_? Seriously?
I think this article fundamentally misunderstands what the purpose of blog
rolls was, and what has filled those niches since.
Blog rolls used to basically fill two purposes, either 1) an exercise in co-
branding (which folks still do: <https://svbtle.com/> ), or 2) as a list of
things that folks find interesting.
1) is kind of a boring subject, and people have sensibly realized that there's
a lot more that goes into consistent branding than just providing some links.
2) Is the space where a lot of special built tools have popped up, whether
it's pinboard or delicious, or twitter and tumblrs for link blogging. I would
argue that this is a vastly preferable circumstance to having a blog roll.
So, OP writes that "link love" is important. Sure it is. But one of the
problems with link love, especially blog roll style, is that maintaining a
list of links can be a pain in the ass, especially when blogs start winking
out of existence.
The lack of a blog roll doesn't mean that linking has gone the way of the
dodo. We've just reorganized the net and the way linking takes place.
"Wasteland" is a bit much frankly.
Oh. this is to pimp a product. Nevermind. probably best just to ignore this
entire conversation :P
------
lmm
You know, I always hated the echo-chamber many blogs became, blogging
endlessly about what other people had blogged and not giving any thought to
producing original content. I mostly steered clear of twitter, because my
impression is it's even worse there. And I don't think I've ever in my life
followed a "related stories" link.
In the days of print we managed just fine without pointers to other works. If
you were very lucky you got a bucket of citations at the end, but most people
skipped right over them. Somehow, we still managed to do discovery.
Are HN/reddit in danger of ceasing to fulfil their discovery functions? Maybe,
and maybe we need a better discovery solution. But I don't think peppering our
actual content with pointers away from it is the solution.
I've recently moved my blog to the simplest theme I could find. A typical
entry has no links, not even to the homepage - I figure by now people have
probably learned how to use the back button. Each entry is a simple piece of
text that should live or die on its own, just like a newspaper column.
~~~
davedx
> Maybe, and maybe we need a better discovery solution. But I don't think
> peppering our actual content with pointers away from it is the solution.
How can a discovery solution not provide pointers to the thing you're
discovering?
~~~
lmm
The discovery solution needs to have the pointers. But the actual content
doesn't. I'm advocating keeping discovery on dedicated discovery sites (which
would of course be full of links), rather than mixing it in amongst the
content.
~~~
progrock
More value in inbound links than outbound links?
The environment sets the context of the content. But your content may appear
different when viewed from a different aspect (under a different context.)
A piece of content barely stands on it's own, that's the charm of the web.
It's an endless task trying to atomise it.
~~~
lmm
A piece of content has to stand on its own (at least on a physical level;
obviously works are embedded in their cultures), because reading is still a
fundamentally linear activity (and watching a video more so). Displaying a
composite piece of content derived from multiple sources is a rainbow people
have been chasing since before the web (see xanadu), but it still looks as far
away as ever.
~~~
progrock
I don't know why I said barely - should have said 'doesn't solely stand on
it's own.' But of course ideally it would be nice if it had meaning all by
itself.
------
ChuckMcM
Someone [1] out there is also shaking down the smaller web sites by scaring
them. We (blekko.com) get requests from website owners or their representative
saying they've been told their ratings in Google are harmed by all the links
to their site so please remove any links we have to their site (and then they
give a URL which is a search for their site on our search engine). I assure
them that Google does not use our results to adjust their ranking algorithms.
But the meta comment is that more folks than ever are putting content on the
web with no idea about how the web works or is worked. That's kind of sad, not
entirely unexpected, but sad.
[1] I always ask who told them this but so far no answers to that question.
~~~
thenomad
Unfortunately, post-Google's Penguin update, there is very strong evidence
that some types of links can indeed harm people's ranks in Google.
That's such a fundemental change to the way that SEO works that it's had
people running scared for a while now.
~~~
guimarin
That is a very serious claim. Do you have any data/evidence to support this,
or is it all strongly worded opinion? If that were actually true, it would be
grounds for regulatory action under the Sherman Anti-Trust Act of 1890. Many
companies other than Google depend on the interconnectedness of the web, as
represented by, among other things, inter-site linkages.
~~~
thenomad
Matt Cutts confirms that some links can harm your site here -
[http://searchengineland.com/google-talks-penguin-update-
reco...](http://searchengineland.com/google-talks-penguin-update-recover-
negative-seo-120463)
Here's an example of a site which recovered from a Penguin penalty by removing
external links - [http://www.seomoz.org/blog/how-wpmuorg-recovered-from-the-
pe...](http://www.seomoz.org/blog/how-wpmuorg-recovered-from-the-penguin-
update)?
And here's some more general data analysis -
[http://www.micrositemasters.com/blog/penguin-analysis-seo-
is...](http://www.micrositemasters.com/blog/penguin-analysis-seo-isnt-dead-
but-you-need-to-act-smarter-and-5-easy-ways-to-do-so/)
------
brudgers
The problem with the utopian vision of the linked web is that links to
meaningful content elsewhere on the web die.
In November of 1994, I created a personal web page. I linked the one image
(the logo of the university where I intended to go to go to grad school). By
March, the link was broken. The school had redone its website.
The world wide web broke the social contract implicit in Gopher. Geocities is
no longer online.
~~~
PaulHoule
Linkrot is a real problem, but it's nowhere near as harmful as PageRank was.
Once links have commercial value, people don't want to give them away for
free. Serious publishers quit making links to outside sites and soon other
people got out of the linking habit.
~~~
vog
This problem has been solved 7 years ago. In 2005, Google introduced
_nofollow_ :
<a href="..." rel="nofollow">...</a>
I believe that _nofollow_ was mainly introduced to fight against guest book
spam, so links in comments wouldn't be accounted by the PageRank algorithm,
thus removing the incentive for that nasty spam.
However, you can also use _nofollow_ to link to your competitors without
increasing their page rank.
~~~
PaulHoule
that's indirection and psychological warefare on the part of Google.
in the big picture you give them data and they process it as they wish;
"nofollow" is just a suggestion. for instance, they can compute metrics of it
such as the ratio of follow/nofollow links pointing to a site and feed it into
their scoring system
good links do get passed around in comments (this is the blog post you really
should read about this) that shouldn't be nofollowed, while other webmasters
are stingy and nofollow everything they link. so who knows what Google or bing
does with this.
What is clear is that if you play it safe and give no link, Google won't give
them any credit.
------
darkstalker
The web has gone too commercial. People cares more about the Ad revenue than
offering valuable content. Most sites don't freely share information withouth
being filled with Ads/analytics, and most of the time that content is just a
repost from elsewhere. From that perspective, linking things outside it's not
a good thing to do, they're a way to "leak customers".
~~~
progrock
Indeed the commercialisation of the web is tawdry. I'm surrounded by a sea of
bullshitters too. The scientific aspect of the web - it's honesty and naivity
have been lost.
I still think there is room for the semantic web, to put right these wrongs -
not sure about how you actually achieve that though.
------
bluetidepro
The irony in this post kills me. As 'parktheredcar' mentioned, there is no
'blogroll' (or 'link love', as he calls it) on the site, and the first thing
that happened to me when I went to the site was an annoying subscribe pop-up.
That alone is the exact answer to why this problem exists. As others have
mentioned, people are far too greedy and want all the traffic to themselves.
You are never going to get back to a linking web when, at the end of the day,
you are just losing "customers".
~~~
Swizec
There's actually a bunch of link love in the post. I made sure to link stuff
that seemed relevant.
As for the popup, stern words will be said to whomever turned that on. I
didn't know it even existed.
~~~
bluetidepro
Interesting. I actually still see lots of posts that have lots of links
throughout the article. Especially when an article is referencing other code,
projects, plugins, articles, etc. I assumed you meant more about the death of
'blogrolls' that has occurred over the past few years because that IS what has
died out, in my opinion (and for reasons I stated above).
------
king_jester
"No, Tumblr doesn’t count. When was the last time somebody re-tumbled anything
more substantial than a picture with two lines of text? And where have all the
blog-spanning debates gone anyway?"
It's clear that the author of this post doesn't grok Tumblr. With Tumblr, good
content discover is hard and that is the main issue with using it. However,
there is TONS of high quality content in long format on Tumblr from a variety
of users.
Finding quality content on blogs has always been a crap shoot. Starting your
own blog and keeping it high quality is hard and nobody's blog is high quality
all of the time. Linking with traditional blogs is and was NOT a good way to
disseminate information, as most people have poor information literacy and do
not have an easy time of finding relevant material via linking. That is why
sharing links and posts via social networks is so popular, as it provided a
way to generate and follow content with an easier (not necessarily easy) to
understand usage model.
------
markkat
I am (in part) attempting to address this discovery issue with
<http://hubski.com>. It is a de-centralized aggregator in that submissions are
public, but there are no shared pages. You get the content posted by people
you follow, but also the content that they decide to share with you (not
unlike a retweet). Instead of votes, posts propagate via shares.
There are also tags, which may be followed as well that are usually topical.
That helps 'outside my feed' discovery. Also, you can select a certain amount
of external posts to filter into your feed for some serendipity. Finally, you
can ignore specific users and tags to control for what type of external posts
filter in.
We aren't huge, but we've got a pretty eclectic range of content.
Using this model, bloggers and content creators can post their own links. If
people aren't interested, they simply won't see them. -There are no community
pages to be polluted. IMHO shared feeds are key to the decline of these types
of communities.
------
coopdog
Are links dead?
I actually find myself using links... as they were intended, to link to
whatever content I'm blogging about as a service to the reader.
I wonder if the rise of the knowledge graph will save links, where every
single noun can be automatically linked to by the AI interpreting it for you.
~~~
ajuc
If every second word on site was a link, nobody would bother to click them.
People would just be frustrated by all that blue words.
Hmm, maybe that's argument for making different categories of links. Like blue
links for things you suggest to read, light blue for things that are relevant,
but not that important for most readers, and gray for links to definition of a
word, source of the data, such things, that most people would ignore.
------
zobzu
As a user, you don't link. You re-tweet. Hoping people will follow you.
Because if you have many followers, you have value (being monetizable, or just
ego).
As a company, it's the Same thing. except instead of tweets (some also use
tweets, obviously) they've an actual website (which has links to mostly
itself, and in rare cases, wikipedia)
It's not just bloggers. It's the whole web thing. It was based on sharing and
linking. I find that it was very, very cool. Now, it's addresses to
webapps.That, and social sites.
So yeah, I like the article, because even it's not 100% accurate it's still
very insightful.
------
languagehacker
That's an interesting perspective to maintain without any data to back it up.
I click on links from blog to blog all the time. I read blogosphere-level
conversations all the time. I also think it's worth bearing in mind that the
leading crawlers know the context of a given set of links, and a bunch of
links with minimal context all in the same div (e.g. "class='blogroll'")
aren't even going to provide the kind of "link juice" a contextualized link in
a large body of text would gain. So that's why a "links" section on a given
post or as a page on a site provides minimal value to the recipients of those
links.
If you want to complain about something, complain about the decline of
contextualized discussion in the blogosphere. Oh wait 00 you can't, because
that's not actually a problem.
------
parktheredcar
There is no 'blogroll' on this very blog. All I got was a popup asking me to
subscribe to something.
~~~
bluetidepro
This exact thing made me crack up in embarrassment for them. The irony that
this post alone has, is ridiculous.
------
webjunkie
I once complained to a blogger that he did not use a single link in his
article about a new site. His response was that if I wouldn't manage to find
the site via Google, I'm too dumb to be using it anyway. So much for links.
------
tokenadult
I still have lots of external links on my personal website, and I still put up
external links almost any time I comment on Hacker News. I write FAQ documents
on a few dozen subjects that are set up with links that work by copy-and-paste
into emails or on most forums that aren't programmed to actively suppress
active links. (Thus those FAQ documents work fine here on Hacker News.)
Links do sometimes break, and the most recent time I submitted a link here on
Hacker News that had been changed by the site owner (grrr), another Hacker
News user quickly discovered the changed link, and let me know about it.
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4467428>
Of course, now I have fixed that in my offline FAQ document. My all-time
favorite link to share in a Hacker News comment, the article "Warning Signs in
Experimental Design and Interpretation"
<http://norvig.com/experiment-design.html>
by Peter Norvig, director of research at Google, has been alive and well for
years with the same URL since I first discovered it. You could safely include
it on your website without much fear that it would ever go dead before your
own site did.
I link out to other quality websites because linking out to other quality
websites is a reliable way to share more information with more of my friends
than typing it all out myself. I can't count on everyone actually following
and reading the links I put in comments here (which means that some people
replying to me here have missed more of my point and the evidence for my
point, especially on controversial issues, than is good for informed
discussion on HN), but links still help curious readers learn more, and
informed readers make for better interaction with your site and almost any
site.
There are means to prevent link rot
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Link_rot>
<http://validator.w3.org/checklink>
and it's worthwhile to use them. It's more worthwhile to provide external
links that to your best knowledge and belief still work than to avoid external
links entirely.
EDIT AFTER FIRST KIND REPLY RECEIVED HERE:
Peter Norvig is definitely good about linking to other pages on his own site
from each page he puts there, at least by putting a home page link
unobtrusively at the bottom, as in the link I submitted, but he does link out
to other good stuff by other authors (as he especially does in the link I
first put in this comment, my favorite online article of his). As an example
of the Peter Norvig article with the most INBOUND links from other sites, his
most-read page, I should also post here the link to his "The Gettysburg
Powerpoint Presentation,"
<http://norvig.com/Gettysburg/index.htm>
which is laugh-out-loud funny for anyone who has ever had to sit through a
PowerPoint presentation by someone who uses too many of the default settings
on PowerPoint.
~~~
brudgers
I would say that Norvig is an edge case both because he is in academia in
general and computer science in particular. On the one hand, his website
reflects research which has largely been dead-tree published, and on the
other, he understands the importance of controlling the database where his
information is stored as well as maintaining the integrity of that database.
Incidentally, most of Norvig's personal page is linked to content on
Norvig.com, not to other sites.
[Edit] As a qualitative measure of how far Norvig.com is from the mean,
imagine the comments it would draw as an "Show HN: Feedback" thread.
------
jakobe
Trigger warning: This blog has a popup that appears after several seconds,
hiding the content.
------
capdiz
"Right now hacker news and reddit are top notch. But they too will die
eventually." Scary thought but aren't these two built on top of what's dyeing.
Which are links, "as in nobody links to other websites anymore". You are right
no one links to interesting content in their blog posts anymore which is quite
sad. But so long as HN and reddit users keep posting links that they find
interesting the future is all good.
~~~
bjourne
So lots of people gather on HN because it is so good and soon enough someone
realizes that posting links on HN is a good way to gather page hits. It's
downhill from there. People begin to post not only about others startups they
find interesting, but about their own ones too for fun and profit.
Intentionally or unintentionally astro turfing. Then genuinely intersting
links also gets accused of being link bait or of promoting some business.
Not before long you'll find shady ads on various forums selling links on HN:
"tons of karma, 2yr acnt, $20$/ppost" Not a single site built on user
submitted content have been able to withstand that plague.
------
patmcguire
Google has a hand in this, too. PageRank and derivative algorithms stop making
sense when the primary driver of traffic and therefore links is the algorithms
themselves. Small differences get wildly exaggerated because whatever shows up
first gets all the links, so there if you're a purely cynical actor the best
route seems to be to try to write something as it's trendy and pray for a
linkstorm miracle.
~~~
lazyjones
Exactly, one might think that Google is trying to monopolize links by
punishing sites with outgoing links.
------
ChristianMarks
One well-known climate blogger, Prof. Judith Curry of Climate Etc., NEVER
allows trackbacks. Reprehensible. This is the worst case of a self-involved
academic who thinks nothing of exploiting the time, energy and hard work of
others to enhance her reputation. (I refuse to link to her information sink of
a site here.)
------
thaumaturgy
Flagged for the really obnoxious "subscribe to our newsletter" pop-up (that
apparently is more important than the content on the page, since it hides the
content as you get a few sentences in), and, as others pointed out, for
committing the same crime it's ranting about.
This really smells like spam, and either way, isn't HN quality.
~~~
alter8
I would unflag it if I was in your place, because it's been fixed[1], and I
don't know what triggers losing flag rights.
[1] <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4479147>
------
joshuahedlund
I'm not sure what blogging niches of the web this author is referring to, but
the economic/political blogs that I frequent share links all the time, and
they all have blogrolls, too (Ex. [1][2][3]). I even picked up links from a
bunch of them on my amateur econ/pol blog a few months ago when I pointed out
a mistake in a graph a bunch of them were sharing. So linking is not
completely dead from where I sit. It's not even dying. YMMV.
[1] <http://marginalrevolution.com/> [2] <http://econlog.econlib.org/> [3]
<http://www.volokh.com/>
------
thenomad
The "no-linking" phenomenon is definitely happening, but it's niche-related.
In the world of Internet Marketing, very few people ever link any more. I
actually killed a business idea earlier this year because in its first month,
the scale of the problem became apparent. No-one links.
In the world of games blogging, by contrast, people link all the time. I run a
fairly successful website whose sole function is to provide manually curated
links - and people link back to it all the time. Discussions fly around the
gaming blogosphere and the blogroll is very much alive.
I'm not sure what the status of the link is in the tech community. Anyone?
------
ryanwaggoner
_Smaller websites and even bloggers caught on, those that remained, stopped
linking to cool things. Screw you cool young startup! Not only am I providing
free advertising for you, you’re harming my search results! However will the
five hundred readers I have find me?_
Ugh, how condescending. Guess what: most startups aren't doing anything very
"cool" and my 500 readers, though small in number _to you_ , are really
important _to me_.
------
duck
Linkrot is a serious issue. Just looking back at the top stories from Hacker
News in the past for my <http://waybackletter.com> project is depressing at
times. I need to compute some real stats one of these days, but I would say
about 20% of links are dead. That is just the popular articles (by votes), I
imagine if you go down the long tail it just gets higher.
------
billswift
Revisiting my comment from a couple of weeks ago, "mass media, which includes
Google, however they may try to deny it, lives by the numbers, which means
adapting to the lowest common denominator. Just think, as the Internet
spreads, Google will evolve (devolve) closer and closer to broadcast TV!"
Just substitute "the Web" for "Google"; the Web is becoming television!!
~~~
julius707
Totally agree. But unlike traditional media, on the Web you can be a
broadcaster too without any permission.
~~~
billswift
The problem is the "mass" part. While I agree that not needed approvals is a
good thing, from the point of view of "massification", mass broadcasting just
makes it go faster. You have the lowest-common-denominator on both ends of the
communication channel. It strengthens the old joke about calling the TV an
"idiot box": It has an idiot on both sides.
The reason the internet won't actually get as bad as TV is the lack of
approvals, and relatively low cost even for good quality production. The
problem is that it gets harder to find amongst all the bleep. Search engines
help, but I have found some useful sites, by following links, that apparently
aren't indexed by Google or DuckDuckGo.
------
pnathan
If you browse around jwz's site, you really get a sense of what a hypertext
site can be. I like it a lot. :-)
I've had an idea for an 'autolink' took for a while - it'll go through your
HTML-base and generate links to other pages based on a statistical likelihood
that your word is related to the other page(s).
------
JulianMorrison
Yes tumblr does too count, n-levels deep screen spanning reblogs are common in
the parts I frequent. Perhaps you need to hang out in the less cat-picture
focused parts of tumblr, it's a very "small world" type system.
------
danielhunt
Am I the only one who smirked while reading the title of the blog after
clicking through, only to see a site-overlay popup?
'Subscribe to our newsletter' No thanks. _closes site_
------
motters
It's a recognisable problem, but for me the blatant self-promotion at the end
left me feeling that I'd just been duped into viewing an advert.
------
sageikosa
Automation strikes again, or any system that relies on buttons being pushed
will eventually have those buttons automatically pushed.
------
n0mad01
i call this bs. theres never been more links on "personal" sites & blogs than
now. it's an information desert because a huge amount of the links are dead or
simply garbage.
------
KaoruAoiShiho
github, google+. No seriously.
------
debacle
Has anyone told this guy about reddit?
~~~
CWIZO
>>Right now HackerNews and Reddit are top notch. But they too will die
eventually.
You haven't even read the article.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Sam Altman AMA on Whale Today - ranidu
https://askwhale.com/add/sama
======
ranidu
Head to [https://askwhale.com/add/sama](https://askwhale.com/add/sama) to
watch all videos from Sam's AMA today on Whale
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
I Declare Independence from Apple - paulsilver
http://betanews.com/2012/07/04/i-declare-independence-from-apple/
======
paulsilver
An interesting take on where Apple's behaviour has taken a previous user of a
lot of their products.
However, I can't help feeling he'll be writing a similar article about Google
in a year or two. Personally I feel depending on one manufacturer/service
provider for everything is a little short sighted.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Disco Project: Erlang and Python Mapreduce - rw
http://www.discoproject.org/
======
paulgb
Has anyone used this? I'm interested in hearing how it compares to Hadoop
streaming + Python (+ Dumbo?).
~~~
ryancox
one thing to keep in mind: there is no distributed filesystem (HDFS in
Hadoop's case). So depending on your workload, you may need to make a choice
about which DFS to use along side Disco.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
The five extra words that can fix the Second Amendment (2014) - aaronbrethorst
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-five-extra-words-that-can-fix-the-second-amendment/2014/04/11/f8a19578-b8fa-11e3-96ae-f2c36d2b1245_story.html
======
mindcrime
_Whether or not we can assert a plausible constitutional basis for
intervening, there are powerful reasons why we should not do so.”_
And that tells you everything you need to know about Stevens. He isn't
interested in what the Constitution says, he just wants to do what he thinks
is right. What conceit.
The "powerful reasons" he cites, if they exist at all, are irrelevant unless
and until he can get his cockamamie plan of amending the Constitution pushed
through. In the meantime, maybe Federal judges should just worry about
enforcing the Constitution as it stands?
_Thus, even as generously construed in Heller, the Second Amendment provides
no obstacle to regulations prohibiting the ownership or use of the sorts of
weapons used in the tragic multiple killings in Virginia, Colorado and Arizona
in recent years._
Actually it does, as, by and large, those weapons were _exactly_ those in
"common lawful use for self-defense, hunting, sport shooting", etc, _or a
functional equivalent_. Many, if not most, modern rifles sold specifically for
hunting are actually semi-automatic rifles, that function nearly identically
to an AR-15.
Understand, military style fully-automatic or select-fire weapons are NOT
being used in these shootings. In fact, a lawfully owned fully-automatic
weapon has almost never been used in the commission of a crime since the FBI
has kept records. I think there may be something like 1 or 2 cases in the past
100 years.
OTOH, a civilian AR-15 is actually not a "high powered weapon" at all, and is
only semi-automatic in function. There are commonly used deer hunting rifles
that are more powerful than an AR-15. In fact, there are handgun rounds like
the .454 Casull that can deliver more muzzle energy than the 5.56 NATO or .223
Remington rounds typically used in an AR-15.
This is the kind of crap you get when anti-gunners, who don't actually know
much about guns, try to spread misinformation and FUD just to advance their
agenda.
------
a3n
Back then, were members of a militia assumed to bring their own guns? If so, a
credible militia would have been impossible.
~~~
AnimalMuppet
> Back then, were members of a militia assumed to bring their own guns?
I believe so, yes, particularly the Minutemen-style militia members in New
England.
> If so, a credible militia would have been impossible.
Um, what? Did you mean "if not" rather than "if so"? As written, I can find no
logic in this sentence. To me, it seems to directly contradict the one before
it.
~~~
a3n
Yes, I meant if not, or without. Once my brain has thought it, it takes no
more responsibility.
------
devhead
just dusting off the ol' soap box, stay classy
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
12 Factor CLI Apps - dickeytk
https://medium.com/@jdxcode/12-factor-cli-apps-dd3c227a0e46
======
emmanueloga_
Don't get me wrong! I love command line apps. But I wonder if we all have a
bit of an Stockholm syndrome... there are several things that suck about
them...
While writing this I'm thinking on my experience trying to do anything with
ffmpeg or imagemagick... or even find.
* For any sufficiently complicated cmd line app, the list of arguments can be huge and the --help so terse as to be become useless. For man pages, the problem is the opposite... the forest hides the tree! I'm sure we all end up using google to look for example invocations.
* Very often completion doesn't work, since custom per-app machinery is needed. For instance: git-completion for with bash-completion.
* Sometimes I end up passing the help output through grep, then copy-pasting the flags from the output, and then hoping I got the right flag.
* ...how about things like regular expressions parameters... always so hard to remember the escaping rules! (and the regex flavor accepted by each different app).
* Not to talk about more complicated setups involved -print0 parameters or anything involving xargs, tee, and formatting with sed and cut, etc.
Is there a better way? Not sure. I like powershell a bit but some of the
things I mention above still apply.
I think we may be able to get a workflow that is a bit closer to the tooling
we use for writing programs while not being perceived as verbose and heavy
(I'm thinking, the kind of workflow I get with a Clojure repl).
~~~
AnIdiotOnTheNet
At this point I'm not really sure what makes command-line so great. We should
have something like it in the GUI sapce that works much better but, like you
said, "stolkholm syndrome".
Why can't a pipeline be a more complicated multi-io workflow? In a 2D GUI this
would be trivial to construct and read, but in a 1D command line it would get
confusing in a hurry. And the concept works much better with AV, I can easily
construct and reason about complicated arrangements of audio and video inputs
and outputs, with mixers, compositors, filters, shaders, splitters, etc.
between them.
Instead we worship text. Is that because manipulating text is actually more
useful, or because our tools are only good for working with text?
~~~
dsr_
Text is exact, programmable, repeatable and transmissible.
exact: in many GUI tools, you can have non-default settings that you changed
via menus. Where are they stored? Which ones are currently active? Does it
matter that you selected four objects first, then a transform tool, then
another object?
programmable: > find /var/spool/program/data -name foop* -mtime +3d -print
vs "open the file manager, go to /var/spool/program/data, sort by name,
secondary-sort by last modification time, find the ones that are more than 3
days old, make sure you don't slip"
repeatable: OK, do that again but in a different directory.
transmissible: here's the one-liner that does that.
Now, your specific requests are about audio and video toolchains, where I will
admit that reasoning about flows is easier with spatial cues -- but I'd really
like the output of that GUI to be an editable text file.
~~~
gambler
Command line is not the only HCI that can use text. Also, no one (except
immense mental inertia) stops developers from producing serializable graphical
interfaces.
~~~
Shorel
I think the macro language of WordPerfect 5.1 was one of the most awesome
serializable interfaces ever.
And they scrapped it in WP6 for some shitty object oriented version that
lacked all the "serializable workflow" of the previous one.
------
jstanley
> Error: EPERM - Invalid permissions on myfile.out
> Cannot write to myfile.out, file does not have write permissions
> Fix with: chmod +w myfile.out
I actually much prefer:
"can't write myfile.out: Permission denied"
This shows the same information as the first 2 lines combined from the
example, and the 3rd line is not necessarily the correct way to fix the
problem anyway (e.g. you might be running it as your user when it should be
root, chmod +w would not help).
If you are so convinced that chmod +w is the way to fix the problem, why not
just do that and carry on without bugging the user?
And having each error confined to one line also means it's much less likely
that some of the lines are missed, e.g. when grepping a log.
EDIT: And to add to this: it's sometimes useful to prefix the error messages
with the name of the program that generated them, so that when you're looking
at a combined log from different places, you know which of the programs
actually wrote the error, e.g. "mycli: can't write myfile.out: Permission
denied".
~~~
Beowolve
So, I understand the basis of your comment. You have the knowledge to know
that there are other things that may be "the right way" given your situation.
I think what the author is getting at is that there are users who don't have
that knowledge. Giving them a hint that is verbose and non arcane can make a
world of difference. Speaking from personal experience, there are many
developers that I have met who don't have basic *nix knowledge, much less
knowledge of a terminal. The reality of the situation is that a business is
going to hire people regardless of that ability. They want someone who can
move the features out the door. Whether this is good or bad is probably beyond
this conversation. I think, for those users, these sorts of helpful hints are
extremely important because it makes them feel like they aren't stuck and
helpless. I think that, to your point, it may be useful to have the CLI offer
a "pro" mode in which you could set a config to not give you as verbose error
messages. Annoying? Yes. However, it would strike a balance and serve both
needs.
~~~
IcePic
Then again, on a recent linux system, the non-ability to write to the file
might be permissions. Or an immutable attr, or selinux, or apparmor, or
setfacl flags or a RO mount where it lies. As soon as you decide to print out
the solution to "can't write to: X" you are in for a page full of advice on
what to look for. Perhaps the disk was full, perhaps uid was wrong, perhaps
the 5% reserved-for-root-only kicked in. You'd end up writing a unix sysadmin
guide, and then perhaps the parent dir had too strict perms to allow you to
write to a file in it...
~~~
smarinov
Also, on an unrelated note, I would never ever suggest novice users to blindly
just give `chmod +w` to random locations. This is only marginally better than
the `chmod 777 <root-folder-name>` that used to be so spread out in many (e.g.
PHP-related) tutorials a decade or two ago.
~~~
mixmastamyk
Agreed, though perhaps it is just a bad example. I could imagine a situation
where a single line of advice could be useful outside the realm of filesystem
security or disk usage.
------
JepZ
> 7\. Prompt if you can
Please don't. There is nothing wrong with interactive tools, but by default,
they should not be. So instead of making non-interactive session possible via
flags, the default should be to be non-interactive. If there is an option to
start an interactive session, everything is fine.
Otherwise, you would never know when your script could run into some kind of
interactive session (and therefore break; possibly after an update).
~~~
jessaustin
My interpretation was that the prompt is for required information. In the
example graphic, "run demo" really does require that "stage" be specified.
This is considered more user-friendly than simply crashing. If you don't want
to see the prompt, provide that information as a flag or in a config file or
whatever.
~~~
boomlinde
User friendly until the user decides to invoke that command in a cron job and
ends up with a headless process waiting for additional input.
~~~
jessaustin
Anyone who doesn't test cron jobs before saving them deserves whatever she
gets. There are scores of ways for cronjobs to fail. b^)
~~~
boomlinde
Well, this is not a cronjob that failed, it's just waiting for input.
Let's say that I did test the cronjob but that it starts "failing" after an
update to the tool. My fault, I know, but at least I get mail when it fails
while I won't if it's just waiting for input.
~~~
dickeytk
This scenario would only happen if a flag became required. Prompting or not it
would still be an issue. (And it wouldn't prompt as this is a non-tty
environment)
~~~
boomlinde
_> Prompting or not it would still be an issue._
Yes, but in one case the issue would result in a mail because the cron job
failed, and in the other case the issue would just cause the the process to
hang indefinitely without notice
~~~
dickeytk
NO IT WON'T HANG. I give up. I don't know how else to try to explain this to
you.
------
Walkman
Unless you already know your users will want man pages, I wouldn’t bother also outputting them as they just aren’t used often enough anymore.
I don't know where this is coming from, me and my colleagues are reading man
pages every day. I would be interested how much others read them.
~~~
kolme
I strongly disagree on this one too.
That's the first place I look for help and it annoys me to no end when a CLI
program that doesn't come with one.
I stopped taking seriously the article at that point and quickly skimmed
through the rest of it.
Man pages are a great unix culture heritage, please new developers don't give
up on them!
~~~
davidhcefx
I myself also love reading man pages, but speaking of compatibility, I have to
say that “--help” is a more universal way of showing help pages. Of course
it’s better to have both of them though.
~~~
larkeith
\--help is fine, but almost never a substitute for a full man page, except for
the most trivial of applications (unless your --help is as complete as a man
page, in which case... good on you for providing full documentation, but I'll
hate you a bit every time I unthinkingly drop two hundred lines of text in my
terminal.)
~~~
smarinov
Unless it just opens the man page if it is so long. Like git.
------
stepvhen
> I would skip man pages are they just aren’t used that often anymore.
I understand that man pages might represent a minority, but I cannot express
enough how wonderful it is to get the full manual of a program without
interfacing with the web. Not to mention how powerful that is, since most apps
have short names that are difficult to search for, but how accessible that
makes the application.
~~~
dickeytk
For people that like man pages (there appears to be lots of you) do you think
that man pages are _more_ important than web or in-cli docs? Or just that they
should be written in addition to and not missed out on?
My (current) position is that they're useful, but not worth the extra effort
for most CLIs. It's a cost-benefit thing.
I'm genuinely curious as I've never had anyone request man pages in our CLI.
~~~
cyphar
> do you think that man pages are more important than web or in-cli docs?
Yes.
* Web docs are a problem because I don't always have access to the internet when trying to do something on my computer, and usually there are so many kinds of web doc generators that you have to figure out how the information you want is laid out. Web docs are useful as a quick-start guide or a very lengthy reference guide -- but not for the common usecase of "is there a flag to do X?"
* In-CLI docs are a cheaper version of man pages. In most cases, the output is larger than the current terminal size so you end up piping to a pager (where you can search as well), and now you have a more terse version of a man page. Why not just have a man page?
Man pages are useful because they have a standard format and layout, provide
both short and long-form information, and are universally understood by almost
anyone who has used a Linux machine in the past. "foo --help" requires the
program to know what that means (I once managed to bootloop a router by doing
"some_mgmt_cmt --help" and it didn't support "\--help" \-- I always use man
pages now). One of the first things I teach students I tutor (when they're
learning how to use Linux) is how to read man pages. Because they are the most
useful form of information on Linux, and it's quite sad that so many new tools
decide that they aren't worth the effort -- because you're now causing a
previously unified source of information (man pages) to be fractured for no
obvious gain.
I still add support for "\--help" for my projects (because it is handy, I will
admit) but I always include manpages for those projects as well so that users
can actually get proper explanations of what the program does.
> I'm genuinely curious as I've never had anyone request man pages in our CLI.
Honestly, I would consider not using a project if an alternative had man pages
(though in this case it would be somewhat more out of principle -- and I would
submit a bug report to bring it to the maintainers' attention).
~~~
majewsky
> I still add support for "\--help" for my projects (because it is handy, I
> will admit)
Some applications (e.g. Git) make "\--help" redirect to man. What do you think
of that?
~~~
falcolas
Personally, I still pull up "man git-pull" or similar. I'm actively annoyed
that I have to remember that the AWS CLI is different in this regard.
Not to mention that using "\--help" for man pages requires I open up a
separate window when I typically just want a quick reference to the most used
flags.
Moving man pages to a different command is like coming up with an alternative
icon to the hamburger menu for your regular UI. Sure, all the functionality is
still there, but it requires a full stop and search to remember where to find
it.
------
gnomewascool
I almost stopped reading at "I would skip man pages", but the rest of the
article was mostly great advice.
I disagree about 11 (using "main_command sub_command:sub-sub_command" rather
than "main sub sub-sub" syntax), but it's mostly a matter of taste.
Seriously, though, if you've already taken the time to write documentation,
then there's no reason not to also generate a manpage. Just using pandoc to
convert your, say, README.md gives good-enough results:
pandoc -s -f markdown_github -t man -o your_cli.1 README.md
(There probably are other good conversion methods.)
Why I like man:
Advantage over online docs:
It's offline and available directly in the terminal, without having to open a
browser and it has a distraction-free, clean look. The only slight
disadvantage is the lack of support for images, which are occasionally
helpful, but in a pinch, for some use-cases, you can have ascii diagrams.
Advantages over "\--help":
1\. Conventionally, "\--help" just provides a brief rundown/reminder of the
options, so having full documentation is valuable.
2\. If "\--help" provides the full docs then:
a) You lose the option of having the brief rundown, which is also very
valuable.
b) "man command" is slightly faster than "command --help" :p (yes, it is a
slight pity that accessing the full docs is faster than accessing the brief
version, if you use convention).
c) man deals with things like having nice output, with proper margins, at
different terminal widths.
d) man deals with the formatting for you, providing consistency with all other
applications.
FWIW I think that texinfo is (mostly) even better than man, as it considerably
improves on the navigation, but it's been crippled by the FSF-Debian GFDL
feud, which meant that the info pages weren't actually installed on many
systems, and it's mostly a lost cause now.
~~~
enriquto
> Advantages of man over "\--help":
You can have the best both worlds if the manpages are built automatically from
the "\--help" output (e.g., using help2man). Then you can have "-h" give a
brief rundown and "\--help" give the full docs.
> FWIW I think that texinfo is (mostly) even better than man, as it
> considerably improves on the navigation
I am curious about that. Do you really like texinfo navigation? I find it
completely unusable, to the point of prefering to download and print a pdf
from the web instead of opening (gasp!) the dreaded "info" program.
~~~
TeMPOraL
I use info browser from Emacs and like it very much. The best benefit is that
you can stuff a whole book into info pages - and projects using info usually
drop their _full_ manual in there, to be perused off-line and distraction-
free.
~~~
enriquto
How do you search for a word inside the whole info documentation of a program
(say, gcc), and cycle through all appearances of that word? I never managed to
do that (which is trivial for manpages).
~~~
TeMPOraL
Don't know how it works in regular info browser; in Emacs's info browser,
incremental search can cover the entire manual (or even all info pages) if it
fails to find a phrase on the page you're currently viewing.
~~~
defanor
It does, see `info '(info) Search Text'`.
------
OJFord
> 12\. Follow XDG-spec
I'm so glad to see this included. I don't like $HOME being cluttered with
.<app> config directories, but worse than that, far too many when releasing on
macOS say Oh Library/Application\ Support/<app>/vom/something is the standard
config location on Mac, so I'll respect XDG on Linux but on Mac it should go
there. No! Such an unfriendly location for editable config files.
~~~
andreareina
I agree that seeing a bunch of ~/.<app> directories is annoying, but at the
same time I do think that it makes sense for each application to manage its
own hierarchy, rooted under e.g. ~/.apps/<app> instead of splitting it into
~/.config/<app>, ~/.local/share/<app>, etc.
Regardless, I think it probably makes sense to have a uniform interface for
getting said directories, so that however the OS decides things should be laid
out, the developer just needs to `local_config_dir(app_name)`. If the user (or
at least administrator) can decide between <app>/<function> and
<function>/<app>, all the better.
~~~
ptman
The reason ~/.config/app is superior, is that then you can e.g. backup all
your configs, or remove your cache, or store ~/.local and ~/.cache on a local
fs and the rest of ~ on NFS.
Do you have to use ~/.config/app/ or could you just use ~/.config/app.conf?
------
013a
This is all great advice.
The one thing this does miss is distribution, which is a HUGE part of offering
a great CLI app. Specifically, I'd say:
1\. Make your OFFICIAL distribution channel the primary package manager on
each platform (ex: on Mac, homebrew. Ubuntu, apt/snap). Beyond that, support
as many as you have capacity to.
2\. Also offer an official docker image which fully encapsulates the CLI tool
and all of its dependencies. This can be a great way to get a CLI tool loaded
into a bespoke CI environment.
~~~
curun1r
Homebrew is NOT the primary package manager on Mac and I wish people would
stop perpetuating that falsehood. Apple includes pkgutil/pkgbuild in the OS
and that official package management strategy plays much better with corporate
IT control of managed machines.
In my experience, Homebrew always eventually results in pain and complex
debugging and it's almost impossible to audit software it installs to prevent
the installation of prohibited or dangerous software.
It's really not that hard to build a .pkg file and developers that want to
properly support the Mac platform should go down that path before offering
Homebrew support.
~~~
colemickens
The best part is that some people think 'brew' is a solid package manager and
then show up in Linux and try to make 'linuxbrew' happen (no really, it is a
thing).
I just wish everyone would take a day and read an intro to nix/nixpkgs and the
world would really be a better place. There are so many "popular" hyped tools
these days that can barely do a fraction of what is going on in the Nix
ecosystem, but it doesn't seem to get the hype that brew, buildkit, linuxkit,
etc all seem to get.
~~~
3PS
Say what you will about Homebrew, but we need more package managers that can
easily install without root. Not everyone has the time and energy to compile
from source, and often it's a circular problem - I need to compile and install
Python 3.7, which needs openssl, which needs to be compiled from source, which
has even more dependencies... ad nauseam.
~~~
colemickens
Why do we need more of them when we already have a number that are capable of
deploying into a home directory? As someone who has worked on software that
has needed packaging, and someone who tries to help out with packaging for a
distribution, I can't imagine why we need more for the sake of having more.
Per my original comment, nix can do this, for example and already has an
enormous number of packages packed, pre-built/cached, ready to go.
------
kpcyrd
I disagree on the 2nd point. Flags prevent globbing by the shell and make the
help text less clear.
Consider a usage line like this:
prog <user> [password]
This tells you which argument is mandatory and which argument is optional in a
second, without searching for the help text of --user and --password.
Also, an example like this:
git add <pathspec>...
Tells you that git add accepts multiple paths and you can invoke it with:
git add src/*
What's more important in my opinion is making sure your argument parser can
handle values that start with a dash and respects a double dash to stop the
option parser.
Consider an interface like this:
prog [--rm] [--name <name>] [args...]
And you invoke it like this:
prog --name --rm -- --name foo
This should result in:
{
"name": "--rm",
"args: ["--name", "foo"]
}
Getting things like this wrong can result in security issues.
~~~
dickeytk
I may try to expand on this in the article, but it's in there if you read
between the lines. There is a difference between something that takes in
multiple args of the same type and multiple TYPES of args. I'm arguing against
multiple args of different types, not the same.
By definition any CLI that accepts variable args is fine here as it's all the
same type.
The -- is a great point as well. It solves a lot of problems users have but a
lot of time people don't even know about it. It solves issues with `heroku
run` for example.
EDIT: updated to clarify my point
------
woodruffw
> The user may have reasons for just not wanting this fancy output. Respect
> this if TERM=dumb or if they specify --no-color.
Or if they specify `NO_COLOR`[1]!
[1]: [https://no-color.org/](https://no-color.org/)
~~~
dickeytk
yes, adding this
------
sudofail
I'm probably being picky, but I would also include that the CLI be a self-
contained binary. I'm tired of managing Python / Ruby / Node versions.
~~~
nhumrich
Its bad both ways. The advantage to python/ruby for example is you can simply
pip/gem install, or update. With a binary, you have to download, move, and
change permissions every update. For experienced linux users, the binary is
fine, but for newer users, its much more "friction"
~~~
Sean1708
IMO using a language's package manager to install applications is a massive
anti-pattern, that should be handled by your OS package manager.
~~~
sudofail
This is what I prefer as well. Let me use my OS's package manager for managing
my packages.
~~~
mixmastamyk
That would still be the case if the packages weren't 1-3 years out of date.
~~~
jetblackio
That is true. But there are ways around that. Including documentation on how
to build it locally is pretty standard. And hosting prebuilt binaries with
package installation for targeted platforms is also pretty common as well.
With interpreted languages with language-specific package managers, you have
to:
1) Install the language
1a) Possibly have to install a language version manager (rbenv, pyenv, etc)
2) Install the language's package manager
3) Install the CLI utility via the language's package manager
Here's the order I think CLI maintainers should strive to making their
utilities available:
1) Install via OS package manager
2) Install via prebuilt release with OS-specific package, from hosting site
(GitHub, etc).
3) Install from source
4) Install via language-specific package manager
5) Install via curl | sh :)
------
lousyd
Only a web programmer could believe that man pages "just aren't used that
often". It drives me nuts when compiled cli programs don't have a man page. It
says to me that the author of the program doesn't know Unix conventions or
doesn't care enough to put the effort into meeting his or her users where they
are, and so I'm gonna have to be careful about how I use the program lest it
do something unexpected. Use man pages.
The awscli is just terrible in this respect. There's no man page for 'aws' so
I say "aws --help". It then literally tells me "To see help text, you can run:
aws help". OpenShift's 'oc' sucks at this only a little less, with no man
pages and for some inexplicable reason you can only get a list of global
options in a dedicated global options help subcommand instead of at the bottom
of every help page. The documentation system for 'git' on the other hand is a
work of art. Pure beauty.
------
bayindirh
I don't agree with 7 and 8. I like silent apps while working, and actually I'm
used to applications saying nothing if everything is correct. Also,
"outputting something to stdout just because I can" kills scriptability a lot.
Using tables, colors and other stuff requires a lot of terminal support. MacOS
terminal, iTerm, Linux terminals supports a lot of stuff, but not always (our
team is generally using XTerm for example). Implementing these are acceptable
if there's a robust code detecting terminal capabilities and falling back
gracefully and without treating these more streamlined terminals as lesser
citizens, and this requires a lot of development, head banging and
maintenance. If you're accepting the challenge, then go on.
BTW, That unicode spinner is nice. Very nice.
~~~
oblio
You can just have a "quiet" mode for scripting. Or even better, detect if
you're connected to a TTY.
~~~
scbrg
I run scripts from a tty all the time...
------
ISO-morphism
These are all good points, and I wish more clis were like this. My own pet
peeve is un-disablable stdout logging.
> It’s important that each row of your output is a single ‘entry’ of data.
It felt weird to me to use `ls` as an example as it's not immediately obvious
it adheres to the advice from the printed output. I suppose they were also
trying to highlight the earlier point of differing output format depending on
whether output is a tty/pipe.
Unrelated, but I didn't know `ls` was that smart about isatty. Once upon a
time I read the '-1' option to print one name per line in the man page and
assumed it was necessary for that functionality. Thanks!
~~~
dickeytk
I just picked `ls` as it's a common utility everyone understands and isn't
some contrived example using `cat`.
I am going to add a note about `ls`'s behavior with isatty. It's sort of
conflating a couple of things, but I think it's interesting enough to leave it
in.
~~~
ISO-morphism
I agree, it is a good example, and hey I learned something.
I really appreciate that you're taking the time to respond to all the feedback
in this thread and wade through everyone's nitpicks. Looking forward to more
articles.
~~~
dickeytk
Thank _you_ for the great feedback!
------
henkdevries
Man I wish OpenVMS was still a thing. All the commands worked the same due to
the DCL enforcing it.
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DIGITAL_Command_Language](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DIGITAL_Command_Language)
~~~
bigpicture
A) PowerShell was inspired by OpenVMS DCL. B) OpenVMS on x86 is due to be
released in 2019 (it's in private beta right now).
------
hornetblack
Also on Color. Don't got go all pschadelic. I've found that some programs
using 256-color is unreadable with my terminal colors.
Also unix commands tend to have illegible colors in Powershell on Windows.
(Ripgrep for example). Powershell defaults to a blue background.
~~~
burntsushi
Can you suggest a better default color configuration for ripgrep? We actually
already have different default colors for Windows as opposed to unix.[1]
[1] -
[https://github.com/BurntSushi/ripgrep/blob/acf226c39d7926425...](https://github.com/BurntSushi/ripgrep/blob/acf226c39d79264256c0295b8381f8c7f0d74d59/grep-
printer/src/color.rs#L7-L24)
~~~
hornetblack
After some time of experimenting with this. I probably can't recommend any
colors.
The issue I've found is that of the 16 build in colors. cmd defaults to
trivial colors. (eg Blue is 000080 and Bright blue is 0000FF.)
Which give terrible contrast. MS seems to be working on improving things on
their end. Then I'll be able to make it readable. (Eg:
[https://github.com/Microsoft/console/tree/master/tools/Color...](https://github.com/Microsoft/console/tree/master/tools/ColorTool))
------
nimish
#6 is great, except if it causes performance issues:
[https://github.com/npm/npm/issues/11283](https://github.com/npm/npm/issues/11283)
Speed is the ultimate fancy enhancement ;)
~~~
roylez
Even if it does not cause any performance issues, I dislike it. If the thing
runs in terminal, it should be expect to be used in a script thus it would be
better to make no assumptions of terminal capabilities and leave the fancy
part to external tools, if one is interested. I always hate systemctl's piping
to a pager by default. "Do one thing, do it well", don't try to surprise users
with fanciness because at work we don't like surprises.
~~~
dickeytk
In practice I've had overwhelming feedback praising our use of spinners in the
Heroku CLI and not a single complaint I can think of. In fact, I've had more
praise for adding spinners and color than any other change we've put in over
4+ years of development.
That said, you need to be careful. Don't use a spinner if it's not a tty or
TERM=dumb. Do use it in some CI environments that support it (Travis,
CircleCI) That handles all the issues we've seen and everyone seems to be
happy.
------
rdsubhas
Really great advice here. But missing one key area:
__Continuous Delivery / Change Management __. I believe any policy without
change management principles isn 't really complete, especially when its about
12factor which is considered a gold standard for production.
* CLIs are notoriously difficult to update because you have to convince every single consumer to update it manually, otherwise you just have scattered logic everywhere. Having an update workflow is essential before releasing the first version in production.
* Closely tied, a clear Backwards compatibility policy.
Apart from those two major items, I have also found one optionally nice
pattern to reason about CLIs:
Design CLIs like APIs wherever possible. Treat subcommands as paths, arguments
as identifiers, and flags as query/post parameters. It's not always
applicable, but doing that for large internal tools helps against the "kitchen
sink" syndrome.
------
jessaustin
_...all of these must show help._
$ mycli
Some commands have an unambiguous meaning and don't need arguments. For
example, it would be weird if a bare "make" command returned help information.
Great post, though. I'm looking forward to digging into oclif.
------
davemp
In regards to 7, prompts are great for teaching new users how the program
should be used.
Instead of failing then spitting out --help or manpage style info, the program
just ask the user enter the needed argument or flag to continue. Having more
ways to learn usage is always good IMO.
~~~
dickeytk
yep +1. A lot of times users are only ever going to run a command once. Better
to ask for the right information than bailing out because it's not perfect
syntax.
------
keithnz
While a bit quirky, I really like powershells approach where you aren't
limited to text streams. All the same advice applies.
------
willio58
Just the help factor alone is a big one.
------
drewmassey
I’m a huge admirer or well crafted cli apps, they can massively boost the
effectiveness of a team.
An oldie but goodie here: [https://eng.localytics.com/exploring-cli-best-
practices/](https://eng.localytics.com/exploring-cli-best-practices/)
------
O_H_E
> Follow XDG-spec Oh, please guys. Some apps even put visible (non .) folders
> in my home.
------
czechdeveloper
I have recently created single CLI program to put in all actions I need to
automate. It's so fast to make new action, that I make anything that saves me
just few seconds a day. Even stuff like "invoice" will open me timescheduling
app, invoicing app and creates canned email to clipboard. "Clockout" will open
timescheduling app and copy expected date and times to clipboard just to paste
to app.
I've of course spent some time on automating Help, flags parsing etc, so I
essentially just say what data I need and then what to perform.
It was best idea in a long time. I'm thinking that I'll publish framework for
this as opensource (it's C# project).
------
twic
> 8\. Use tables
> By keeping each row to a single entry, you can do things like pipe to wc to
> get the count of lines, or grep to filter each line
> Allow output in csv or json.
Yes please. Default to readable-but-shellable tabular output, and support
other formats.
libxo from the BSD world is a really smart idea - it provides an API that
programs can use to emit data, with implementations for text, XML, JSON, and
HTML:
[http://juniper.github.io/libxo/libxo-
manual.html](http://juniper.github.io/libxo/libxo-manual.html)
I personally love CSV output. Something like libxo means that CSV output could
be added to every program in the system in one fell swoop.
------
kurtisc
>Still, you need to be able to fall back and know when to fall back to more
basic behavior. If the user’s stdout isn’t connected to a tty (usually this
means their piping to a file), then don’t display colors on stdout. (likewise
with stderr)
GCC does this, leading to no colour output where it would be useful if you're
building with Google's Ninja-build. Maybe there are some people who do pipe
GCC output to a file - I've never had to. If you do this with your app, I'd
appreciate being able to re-enable the colour.
------
sytelus
Does these CLI features like tables, OS notifications etc work cross-platform
(Linux, Windows, OSX)? IS there any good library to develop such CLI apps?
~~~
dickeytk
we use [https://github.com/mikaelbr/node-
notifier](https://github.com/mikaelbr/node-notifier)
------
breckuh
> 1\. Great help is essential
I like how this is their #1. In my opinion the best way to do this is with
tldr.
[https://github.com/tldr-pages/tldr](https://github.com/tldr-pages/tldr)
I'd highly recommend folks create a tldr page for their CLI app. Add 4-8
examples to cover 80%+ of the most common use cases. -h flags, readmes & man
pages can cover the other 20%.
~~~
dickeytk
I almost want to rewrite the help section to encourage examples even more.
They're incredibly valuable.
I hadn't considered this before you mentioned it, but oclif CLIs could
integrate to tldr pretty well. It already supports arrays of strings for
examples.
~~~
tetha
Yup. On CPAN, it is encouraged that the first part of your documentation after
the table of contents is the synopsis[1]. The synopsis should clearly show how
to do the common tricks with the library. From there you can link and refer to
the more detailed documentation.
We're doing that for our internal CLI applications and it's great to be able
to just copy-paste the common use case from the top of the documentation
without searching much.
1: [https://metacpan.org/pod/Carp](https://metacpan.org/pod/Carp)
~~~
dickeytk
I feel the synopsis section of man pages often just becomes a bunch of useless
garbage above the fold (for instance, look at `man git`).
Using it less as a complete docopts kind of thing and more of multiple common
usages (like `man tar` and what you linked) is far more useful.
I think there is something here I hadn't really considered before. It's not an
example, but also not a useless dump of flags. Food for thought I suppose.
------
gtramont
Related: [http://docopt.org/](http://docopt.org/) – There are implementations
for various languages. Whenever I need to write something that has a CLI, this
is my default option…
------
fiatjaf
Is it just me or every now and then Medium opens with what looks like to be a
snapshot of the article instead of the HTML? I can't select text or scroll the
page. If I refresh the page everything is normal, though.
------
phoe-krk
I clicked this in hope that these was an article describing 12 CLI apps
written in the Factor language.
[http://factorcode.org/](http://factorcode.org/)
My hopes were crushed.
------
justinrlle
> I also suggest sending the version string as the User-Agent so you can debug
> server-side issues. (Assuming your CLI uses an API of some sort)
Isn't it some kind of disguised tracking? I know it doesn't give as much info
as the user agent of a browser, but still, you could track the OS, even the
linux distribution, and surely more, while still being a reproducible build.
------
superlevure
Does someone has the name of the terminal app used in the article ? (with the
nice colored path)
~~~
kjaer
It looks like zsh with the Oh My Zsh [1] with the Agnoster theme [2].
1\. [https://ohmyz.sh/](https://ohmyz.sh/)
2\. [https://github.com/robbyrussell/oh-my-
zsh/wiki/Themes#agnost...](https://github.com/robbyrussell/oh-my-
zsh/wiki/Themes#agnoster)
~~~
superlevure
Thank you !
------
sigjuice
Nitpicks:
Replace “pipe content” with “redirect content”
~~~
dickeytk
nice catch, ty
------
stuaxo
"12 factor" anything seems to be a symptom of the over-complexity of modern
apps, go back and rethink.
~~~
shoo
i found the original 12 factor website had a number of pretty reasonable
suggestions based on experience of people who ran a business doing operations
for other people's web apps.
sure, web apps are themselves probably over complicated, but given that you're
doing a web app, the recommendations arent bad. compare to where things have
gone since, with containerisation.
~~~
subway
In a lot of ways the "12 factors" have overly simplistic views of the world.
For instance, storing your config in the environment is fantastic -- until you
remember a great many frameworks will dump their environment to the browser in
a number of failure scenarios. There go all your secrets.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
High on business: Marijuanettes rapidly gaining popularity in the US - tbindi
http://www.shoestring.com.au/2013/08/high-on-business-marijuanettes-rapidly-gaining-popularity-in-the-us/
======
taproot
Talks about misconceptions, insinuates smoking weed wont lead to lung cancer.
Claims video seen by 8500 people means it went 'viral'.
Was this ad paid for?
Edit dont get me wrong there is a list a mile long why pot should be outright
legalised this article just didnt cover any of them.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Boxopus lets you download torrents to Dropbox anonymously + w/o a Torrent client - kapkapkap
http://torrentfreak.com/boxopus-downloads-torrents-to-dropbox-120623/
======
petercooper
This is relevant but forgetting torrenting for just a moment.. I believe
Dropbox uses hashing to identify files in their system, since sometimes you
can copy a large file into your Dropbox and it syncs immediately (without an
upload).
Given this, rather than using torrents, could there theoretically be a way to
tell your Dropbox account you "have" a certain file that, indeed, you do not,
merely by using the hash? For example, if I know the hash for the latest
episode of a TV show is "ab12de" (gross simplification!) and I can make
Dropbox think I "have" that file, if someone else already uploaded that file
to _their_ Dropbox, I could grab it too?
~~~
bryanh
This has been done and the exploit has been (mostly?) closed. Google
"dropship" for all the details.
~~~
gibybo
How does their dedupe method work now? Shouldn't it still be possible under
the same principle?
~~~
kirubakaran
Client: I have the file with hash 0x47fed9.
Server: Okay, tell me what byte 1257 (randomly chosen) of that file is and
I'll mark you as having the file.
Client: Ummm ...
~~~
invisible
So a client could theoretically talk to another client that knows what byte
1257 is and the file would appear to answer what the question implied.
~~~
jgeralnik
If there is cooperation with another client who has the file you could just
get the file from them in the first place.
~~~
0x0
Perhaps the bandwidth between (dropbox + all your syncing devices) is greater
than what the conspiring client can provide, so such a scheme may still be
beneficial.
~~~
nilved
I think they could just share the folder with you on Dropbox, allowing you to
download it from there.
------
LocalPCGuy
Pretty much boilerplate, but don't think this is going to protect you if the
torrents being downloaded are illegal:
"Boxopus may disclose Personally Identifiable Information if required to do so
by law or in the belief that such action is necessary to: (a) comply with law
or legal process, court order or a subpoena served on Boxopus or the Site to
cooperate with law enforcement authorities; (b) investigate, prevent or take
action regarding suspected or actual illegal activity or fraud on the Site;"
~~~
koala_advert
And even if Boxopus claimed to protect you like some VPNs do, unless they also
encrypt the files before uploading them to Dropbox, wouldn't you still be at
legal risk with Dropbox? Or are Dropbox contents automatically encrypted upon
upload so that employees have no way of knowing what they contain?
~~~
TylerE
As long as you're not sharing your Dropbox, it doesn't matter at point.
Copyright Infringement is a crime of distribution (or more strictly speaking,
reproduction), NOT possession.
~~~
jeffool
In the US copyright includes the right to make copies. As an individual you do
not have the right to freely make copies for yourself. That's reproduction,
and is expected to get you in trouble. The idea that "it's legal to download,
just not upload", is a defense that's been long been claimed, but to my
knowledge, has never been tested in court.
To be fair, though, I believe they (the RIAA, MPAA) haven't tested that case
either. Maybe they're not 100% sure either.
Now, in Canada? I believe private-use MUSIC downloading is legal. (Due to
shenanigans involving the fine levied on blank media made for the purpose of
burning music. Basically, Canadians already pay the fine for music piracy, so,
they get to do it. That's my understanding.)
~~~
DanBC
In the UK it's not legal to download, but the only damages are the costs of
one copy of the item. Doing all the paperwork and filing all the legal stuff
is time consuming and expensive, thus companies don't bother with it just to
recoup £14 for a movie.
But if you're uploading then the costs are the cost of the media * number of
people in the swarm. And going after those people has -they hope- a chilling
effect, preventing people from doing it.
This is "civil law" (A UK lawyer probably knows the correct terminology.)
If you're infringing copyright as part of trade -selling bootleg DVDs on a
market stall, for example- it becomes a criminal offence, and is enforced by
police and trading standards officers.
~~~
polshaw
Got a citation on the damages amounts? Haven't heard that before.
------
iandanforth
Doesn't this make Boxopus a honey pot for MPAA subpoenas?
~~~
Estragon
That hadn't occurred to me until I read your comment, but I came over here to
ask a related question: What is the business model? Who is paying for the
bandwidth boxopus is using by downloading all these torrents for people?
------
kenrikm
Wow, in before API access is cut to prevent the mountain of lawsuits that
would hit Dropbox if it's not. API cut in 3... 2... 1...
~~~
Jach
Why would Dropbox be hit by lawsuits now due to their API? Amazon's web
services and every other cloud storage site has no less risk. I am betting on
lawsuits for this Boxopus service since they're actually doing the downloading
and distributing, even if it's on a user's behalf.
~~~
catch23
why would they be suing boxopus? that would be like suing the creators of the
bittorrent client. boxopus doesn't store any data, nor provide links to
torrents for people, it's simply a service like your bt client. If anything,
this seems like this would be an easier way to catch the actual users.
~~~
stephengillie
So they'd sue boxopus to get their user data (IP addresses)? Or is this an
RIAA/MPAA honeypot?
~~~
kenrikm
They'd sue them to try and bleed them into the grave regardless of if they
have any legal basis to do so.
------
joejohnson
Torrent Reactor has already added a Boxopus ("Download to Dropbox") option to
their torrent pages.
------
orbitahl
I have actually had similar service running on my servers for a while now
(took me about almost 3 months to design, code and test), though it makes
legally no sense to make it available to the public, as you will need a solid
ISP that will guarantee you that it won't abandon you as soon as they receive
a letter from the Copyright Mafia. The service will eventually resemble a
glorified cyber locker, since it makes no sense to delete the most popular
files. Secondly, you aren't really protecting your customers unless you can
provide payments through bitcoin, but even that wouldn't be safe enough.
------
SCdF
So maybe I'm overreacting or misunderstanding, but if this kind of thing
became popular (using a service to push torrents, which are by and large used
for things lawmen don't like, to your dropbox account) could dropbox face
similar issues to those faced by MegaUpload?
I kind of feel like at this point my data should be stored a in a 'RACS'
configuration: a Redundant Array of Cloud Storage.
At least with DB you usually also run the d/t client and so have the data
'checked out' in local drives, but I do know people who just use the web
client (locked down computers).
------
liammcurry
I've done something similar with an IFTTT recipe, where I can email the URL of
a .torrent file and it will be automatically added to a folder in my Dropbox.
Then I have my torrent client setup to watch that folder for .torrent files.
This works nicely when I'm not at my computer and want to start downloading
something.
Here's the recipe: <http://ifttt.com/recipes/100>
------
smallegan
This brings to mind lots of questions like, Does this take advantage of
Dropbox's single instance file storage? As in, are they uploading completed
files and saving themselves the bandwidth of having to actually do the upload
because dropbox likely already has a copy of that file hosted? Also, if
multiple users are requesting the same file is Boxopus downloading this more
than once?
------
leke
Let's say I'm a copyright holder and I see my content on the bittorent
network. Would the IP address of the downloader on the network belong to
boxopus? If so, if I then asked boxopus to hand over the all user's details
(dropbox accounts and email addresses I guess) that accessed the torrent in
question through their service, would they have that data on their servers?
------
joejohnson
Has anyone been able to download through this? I tried about 30 minutes ago
and the torrent still says it's waiting in their queue. This seems like a very
slow way to download a torrent.
------
chrischen
This is basically a torrent VPN service that goes through DropBox.
------
Tichy
I don't understand it. What is the difference to just configuring a dropbox
folder as the download destination in the BitTorrent client of your choice?
~~~
fishbacon
Your connection is not used for torrent packages but Dropbox packages. So it
is, in some sense, anonymous.
------
suprgeek
Excellent innovation. This is like waving a red flag in the face of the MPAA,
RIAA, and all the other entrenched monopolies that are seeking to extend their
outdated business models by using old-school Mafioso tactics. I would be very
surprised if Boxopus, Dropbox (or both) wasn't pressurized to discontinue this
service in some way. API changes by Dropbox (or TOS violation based
suspension), Lawsuit for BoxOpus, etc to follow...
~~~
ethank
You do realize the trade groups (riaa, mpaa) exist to prevent collusion? Aka
mafioso tactics?
Not saying the represent a valid continual business model (currently, we can
hope for evolution) but lets leave the hyperbole at the door.
------
samrat
Does this have a file size limit? I'm pretty sure dropbox's API has a 300MB
limit.
~~~
SoftwareMaven
They undoubtably put the file in their own Dropbox, then copy it into yours.
That also allows the dedup algorithm to run to save bandwidth.
And the limit is 150mb otherwise.
------
benguild
Can you seed with this?
------
smashingeeks
Please vote this <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4153077>
~~~
icebraining
Flagged for spam.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
'UK the worst place to live in Europe' - newacc
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/uk/UK-the-worst-place-to-live-in-Europe/articleshow/5125621.cms
======
jacquesm
The real news from that is not how bad the UK did, but how well Poland did,
ahead of Italy, Sweden, Ireland and the UK.
That's quite amazing news.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: Is anyone working on a replacement for email? - snazz
Email’s defining characteristic is how it’s decentralized—no single company has control over the protocol. This has been both a blessing and a curse, and for better or worse, email is mostly stuck in the 80s with a little bit of HTML sprinkled in.<p>I hear Slack get thrown around a lot by people wanting to replace email with instant messaging, but it not only isn’t decentralized but also doesn’t serve many of the purposes (authentication, a universal identifier, etc) that email has come to serve.<p>Are you working on something to replace email? Are there any projects that are starting to replace email for you?
======
icedchai
Email doesn’t need replacing.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
COVID19 reinfection by a phylogenetically distinct coronavirus strain confirmed - drocer88
https://academic.oup.com/cid/advance-article/doi/10.1093/cid/ciaa1275/5897019
======
salmon30salmon
This is neither surprising nor concerning. It is exactly what you would expect
from a coronavirus, remembering that a lot of what we now call the common cold
is caused by various coronavirus strains. It would be shocking if we did _not_
see re-infection.
The important questions are as follows:
1\. What is the _severity_ of reinfection?
2\. What is the average immune response of re-infections?
3\. If the infection is less severe, what is the shedding rate? How infectious
are the re-infected?
4\. Does re-infection occur in those who receive mRNA vaccinations (this is
not really testable yet)
The pearl clutching with everything COVID related is quite concerning, moreso
than the disease itself. The science is interesting, but the medias obsession
with exaggerating and fear-mongering this disease is incredible. With that
said, I appreciate that the link is to the paper, and not a media report on
the paper. However I do await the stories that this proves we are all doomed
:(
~~~
pasabagi
> pearl clutching with everything COVID related is quite concerning, moreso
> than the disease itself.
At the high points of the peak in the US, COVID 19 was killing more people per
week than cancer or heart disease in the US. If everybody was just going on
with business as usual, there's no reason to believe that the curve would have
been turned.
If you're in an at-risk group, COVID is really dangerous. The case fatality
rate is around 3% in the US, and it's extremely contagious, so it's plausible
to imagine a world where everybody got it.
I think with these numbers in mind, a little bit of 'pearl clutching' is
warranted.
~~~
chrisco255
[https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm](https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm)
There was only ever a few weeks there that excess death count was above
average (see above). We have been at or below average for several weeks now.
When you factor that in with the fact that vast majority of Covid deaths (over
90%) had comorbidities, we can safely conclude this virus is not as deadly as
it has been hyped up to be. Case fatality rate is nowhere near 3%. Most
estimates have been 0.25% or lower. Vast majority of the population has
natural immunity and remains asymptomatic even upon infection.
EDIT REPLY: No average excess deaths is never zero, as you can see in the
chart down the page listed above on the CDC site. We have been down in the
range of a bad flu season for a couple months now. Why is excess death count
important? Because it disentangles the people who died from Covid from the
people who died with Covid. If a 90 year old dies with Covid, and that same
person would have statistically likely died from any disease including
pneumonia or the flu, it's worth noting. It has substantial implications for
society. That's why excess death count is worth looking at.
~~~
dragonwriter
> there was only ever a few weeks there that excess death count was above
> average (see above).
What is this supposed to mean? Excess death count is the amount above the
expected, so average excess deaths is 0.
And every week from March 28 on has positive excess deaths, except the last
week on the chart, which is unreliable becuase...
> We have been at or below average for several weeks now.
from the popup in your source when you highlight any datapoint on the chart:
"Data in recent weeks are incomplete."
------
just-juan-post
As a layman I have to ask: Isn't this what happens with "the flu" (our annual
flu waves) every year? It infects us, we fight it back, it mutates, infects us
again, we fight it off again, and the cycle repeats.
Same thing happening here?
~~~
thewarrior
Yes but this is deadlier
~~~
neilwilson
Is it?
It may be twice, possibly three times as deadly at the older end of the
population, but it is nowhere near as deadly at the younger end - where flu is
a much bigger killer.
It certainly isn't ten times as deadly overall.
Moving from blasé to hysterical helps nobody. We need to be rational.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: any beautiful website generation service? - tucson
(inspired by earlier HN post: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4131847)<p>I am looking for a way to generate ready-made websites for small businesses.<p>The demand is there. I have dozens of businesses contacting me every week for building websites.<p>I am looking for a way to automate the creation of the sites based on basic infos (company name, some presentation text) and produce a nicely designed (such as those themes) website.<p>Does anybody know of a service that could help?
======
simba-hiiipower
not sure if this is the type of thing you're looking for, but i recently came
across this:
IM-Creator <http://imcreator.com/>
i’ve just begun messing around with it (building a simple personal site) and
I’m generally very pleased. the templates they have up are really quite nice
and are very easy to customize. though it does feel a bit limited (may not be
quite suitable for you), it is free and they seem to be pretty active in
addressing any issues and taking feedback into consideration for improvements.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Computer vision uncovers predictors of physical urban change - cing
http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2017/07/05/1619003114.short
======
cing
[http://streetchange.media.mit.edu/](http://streetchange.media.mit.edu/)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: Is there an rss feed for “Ask HN”? - rayalez
======
edoceo
The RSS put out is only for the front page
This site is making Atom based feeds available for HN
[http://hnmob.com](http://hnmob.com)
Disclaimer: I made it.
------
gregr401
Try: [https://news.ycombinator.com/rss](https://news.ycombinator.com/rss)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Screaming Fast Galois Field Arithmetic Using Intel SIMD Instructions (2013) - gbrown_
http://web.eecs.utk.edu/~plank/plank/papers/FAST-2013-GF.html
======
nkurz
At a glance, this seems like a clear explanation of using standard SIMD
instructions to solve the problem, but I think the landscape has changed since
this was written such that there are now better approaches.
In 2010, Intel released processors with the a dedicated instruction for
"packed carry-less multiplication": [https://software.intel.com/en-
us/articles/intel-carry-less-m...](https://software.intel.com/en-
us/articles/intel-carry-less-multiplication-instruction-and-its-usage-for-
computing-the-gcm-mode). Unfortunately, the early implementations (through
Sandy Bridge) were slow, and could be beaten by combining other SIMD
operations as shown in this paper.
With the Haswell generation released in 2013, though, PCLMULQDQ got much
faster. Instead of being able to complete one instruction every 8 cycles, it
became possible to finish one every 2 cycles (inverse throughput went from 8
to 2). This paper 2015 paper "Faster 64-bit universal hashing using carry-less
multiplications" shows the difference this makes:
[https://arxiv.org/pdf/1503.03465.pdf](https://arxiv.org/pdf/1503.03465.pdf)
If you are looking for an explanation of how the problem could be solved with
the basic building blocks of SIMD, the 2013 Plank, Greenan, Miller paper might
be a good resource. But if you are hoping to implement high performance
solution for modern processors, the 2015 Lemire and Kaser paper is probably a
better starting point.
(This is with the caveat that I don't actually understand the theory or
terminology of Galois fields, and maybe there is something about applying it
to Erasure Coding that makes the faster PCLMULQDQ approach inapplicable.)
~~~
nullc
Erasure codes normally deal with fairly small fields (e.g. F(2^8)); which
might reduce the usefulness of the carryless multiply instruction.
~~~
problems
This sounds potentially useful for things like GCM too, would it be more
helpful there?
~~~
nullc
AFAICT, the carryless multiply instruction was pretty much added for GCM's
benefit.
------
nickcw
Klaus Post did an implementation of this in Go using with the relevant bits in
SSE3 assembler:
[https://github.com/klauspost/reedsolomon](https://github.com/klauspost/reedsolomon)
He references the paper in the amd64 code blob:
[https://github.com/klauspost/reedsolomon/blob/master/galois_...](https://github.com/klauspost/reedsolomon/blob/master/galois_amd64.s)
------
ms512
Intel's ISA-L ended up implementing this method. Their implementation is
interesting because they took this further and took advantage of knowledge of
the instruction latency to pipeline multiple iterations of this method to
achieve some really amazing throughput.
For reference, see [https://01.org/intel%C2%AE-storage-acceleration-library-
open...](https://01.org/intel%C2%AE-storage-acceleration-library-open-source-
version) and the source code at
[https://github.com/01org/isa-l](https://github.com/01org/isa-l) (see the
erasure code folder for details).
In general, I've found Prof. Plank's other papers and presentations very
interesting, innovative, and accessible.
------
profquail
Looks like this technique is covered by a patent claim by a 3rd party? (See
the link on that page to download their software.)
~~~
fdej
[https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20141115/07113529155/paten...](https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20141115/07113529155/patent-
troll-kills-open-source-project-speeding-up-computation-erasure-codes.shtml)
~~~
ChuckMcM
Time to file an ex-parte review/challenge.
~~~
rch
The founder, president, and CEO of StreamScale, Michael H. Anderson, seems to
have 'over a dozen granted patents in the storage field', some listed here:
[http://www.streamscale.com/cgi-
bin/complex2/showPage.plx?pid...](http://www.streamscale.com/cgi-
bin/complex2/showPage.plx?pid=34)
------
orasis
Is there a TL;DR of how much faster Reed Solomon codes are with this?
------
nneonneo
Needs a (2013) tag.
------
iamwil
What is a Galois Field used for?
~~~
aisofteng
Reading the abstract will answer your question.
~~~
Quequau
So:
"Galois Field arithmetic forms the basis of Reed-Solomon and other erasure
coding techniques to protect storage systems from failures. Most
implementations of Galois Field arithmetic rely on multiplication tables or
discrete logarithms to perform this operation. However, the advent of 128-bit
instructions, such as Intel's Streaming SIMD Extensions, allows us to perform
Galois Field arithmetic much faster. This short paper details how to leverage
these instructions for various field sizes, and demonstrates the significant
performance improvements on commodity microprocessors. The techniques that we
describe are available as open source software."
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
The best person who ever lived is an unknown Ukrainian man - niklasbuschmann
https://boingboing.net/2015/07/30/the-best-person-who-ever-lived.html
======
eindiran
Here is the guy in question:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Zhdanov](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Zhdanov)
He was a Soviet virologist that generated the initial push to eradicate
smallpox.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
OS X Lion Bug: Safari guzzling massive amounts of RAM - shawndumas
http://www.tuaw.com/2011/07/27/os-x-lion-bug-safari-guzzling-massive-amounts-of-ram/
======
jws
The author's testing methodology appears unable to tell _leakage_ from
_caching_.
If your machine isn't swapping, then any unused memory is wasted. Better to
keep all sorts of speculatively cached data. For a web browser that includes
downloaded resources, but it could also include the rendered bitmaps of page
fragments, preparsed documents, or any manner of partial computation that may
be reused later. Once there is memory pressure the code can start dropping
these things.
~~~
hackermom
Assuming it's just cached content, Safari 5.1 is then caching _a lot_ more
than 5.0.x did.
------
jolan
> Disabling all but a handful of my Safari extensions brought the Safari Web
> Content subprocess's RAM usage down from 1.06 GB or more down to a much more
> manageable 300 - 320 MB with five tabs opened, but over time usage climbed
> to over 600 MB again, so it's possible one of my enabled extensions is the
> culprit.
Why even post this if you're not going to investigate aside from extension
disabling roulette?
------
justinph
This is somehow unique to Safari, or bad? Has the author never used chrome or
firefox? Right now I've got three tabs open in chrome and it's using 703 mb of
ram between all the threads.
A modern browser will gobble memory. But it will also get paged out to disk
when necessary, and that's not such a terrible thing.
~~~
dpark
Paging to disk is pretty terrible if it's not strictly necessary. If your
storage is an HDD, it can sometimes be faster to regenerate the paged
information rather that read it back from disk. I don't know if Safari is
actually causing memory contention here or if it's just aggressively caching
while still playing nice. But if its cache is causing a lot of paging, that
could very well be worse for performance than just reducing the cache size.
------
pohl
_...however, I was seeing huge amounts of RAM usage even with only three or
four tabs open. Four webpages shouldn't be consuming over a gigabyte of RAM._
I think it's a mistake to equate 4 tabs with 4 web pages worth of content.
Each tab actually represents a list of web pages that corresponds to that
tab's history, and each element in that list is actually the root of a tree of
resources needed for each of those pages, and if the user uses the back
button, they often do not want to merely return to the page as it would be
fetched by the request, but they also want to return to the state of the DOM
as it was when they were just there, such as the state of a form they were
entering. With the swipe-to-go-back interface, the previous page needs to be
available pretty fast to make the UI responsive to this gesture.
This smells more like a cache to me than a leak.
------
zdw
Web browsers running code and rendering arbitrary documents from who knows
where might use or leak memory? This is surprising to people?
Every web browser I've ever used eventually needed to be quit and restarted to
clear out it's memory leaks.
~~~
guylhem
I've found the situation slightly better with Opera on OSX, but even with Snow
Leopard and 4G of RAM, Safari leaked memory after 7 days
------
hackermom
It's in Safari 5.1. I'm running 10.6 still and Safari is indeed guzzling more
memory, through that process, than it did in version 5.0.x.
~~~
r00fus
Same here... on my Santa Rosa 10.6 MBP w/4GB at work, it can get quite
annoying.
At home on my later model MBP w/8GB and Lion it's not even noticeable.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Why we gamble like monkeys - claypoolb
http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20150127-why-we-gamble-like-monkeys?utm_content=buffereb10c&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
======
claypoolb
I've been guilty of this time and time again... and not just at the casino!
"Win on roulette and your chances of winning again aren't more or less – they
stay exactly the same. But something in human psychology resists this fact,
and people often place money on the premise that streaks of luck will continue
– the so called 'hot hand'.
The opposite superstition is to bet that a streak has to end, in the false
belief that independent events of chance must somehow even out. This is known
as the gambler's fallacy, and achieved notoriety at the Casino de Monte-Carlo
on 18 August 1913."
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Carbon: high level programming language that compiles to plain C - flexterra
http://home.kpn.nl/pt.kleinhaneveld/carbon/about.html
======
shadowmint
I wish projects like this wouldn't force you to install their libraries in
order to play with them.
Sure, it's just /usr/local, but @#$#@$@# it's annoying when you have to make
install on the dependent library before the core application will install.
Use scons. or a makefile. or cmake. Or build a static binary. I don't care;
but look at the go source archive for an example of how to do this right.
This isn't a good first touch of a project:
./configure: line 12296: syntax error near unexpected token `CO2,'
./configure: line 12296: `PKG_CHECK_MODULES(CO2, libco2-1.0 >=
0.1.2,,as_fn_error $? "required module missing" "$LINENO" 5)'
hint: you'll notice autoconf isn't in the list above. :P
~~~
055static
It's is one of life's small pleasures when programs (useful programs) compile
fast and with relative simpicity.
If you want to experience this, try www.sigala.it/sandro/ and cutils. There's
a links to it on the OP's page. Programs as UNIX filters, written with flex
and bison. Beautiful.
I like this OP because he includes a grammar file. If every programmer that
tries making his own language did this, the world would be a better place. Did
he also include the .l file in the src? I'm too lazy to look. I think they
should include those too. It makes the whole thing easier to understand (and
modify).
I too get annoyed with having to install the author's own libs. Sometimes
these libs are better than the standard ones (e.g. everyone knows C's stdio
sucks). If the special libs are fixing something that needs fixing, I'm OK
with using them. But nine times out of ten, that's not the case.
For this sort of thing, i.e. C code generation, I still like the LISP's that
generate C.
------
jryan49
Reminds me of <https://live.gnome.org/Vala>
------
nnq
When the first thing I read about a language it on it's description page is
"compiles to X" or "runs on Y", this is definitely a sign that the language ha
NOTHING INTERESTING TO OFFER whatsoever. Adding insult to injury, underneath
is a bulletted list of language features that any language worth it's salt has
them! And please... "Named constructors"... WTF?!
(If someone wants to be mean, he could simply compare this feature-wise with
one of the Scheme dialects that compile to C...)
~~~
jasim
Not every language needs to be one of those that changes the way we think
about programming. It is perfectly fine to experiment on mundane languages by
adding mundane features. Incremental improvement is a good thing and it is too
early to just write off this because it seems to be un-interesting.
I'm sure this project was extremely interesting to the author - maybe from a
different perspective than yours.
> (If someone wants to be mean, he could simply compare this feature-wise with
> one of the Scheme dialects that compile to C...)
I'm not being mean here, but if someone really wanted to be..
~~~
njharman
> not every languages needs to change ... way we think about programming. >
> I'm sure this project was extremely interesting to the author
No, but neither does(should) every new language be posted and upvoted to HN.
~~~
Xcelerate
If it's upvoted, then the HN crowd finds the language interesting. If not,
then it will fade away like every other article that doesn't get votes does.
------
Ogre
The Example link contains, I think, only two things that aren't valid C++.
"self." (could be replaced by this-> or simply nothing in C++) and the
["stdio.h"] int printf... syntax for including just one thing.
Two and a half things I guess: the methods of MyObject are accessed by main
but not declared public (C++ is private by default)
I don't know if that's good or bad, but it's not very compelling to me.
------
jedbrown
Without a source-level debugger, I see little advantage relative to COS, which
_is_ C, but has a more advanced object and type system than Carbon.
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1192791>
<https://github.com/CObjectSystem/COS>
~~~
wbhart
There's less typing for the programmer than in COS as far as I can tell. And
productivity is an important improvement.
------
bcl
This is going to need better documentation than a Yacc description if it is
going to catch on.
~~~
andrewflnr
There's example code here,
<http://home.kpn.nl/pt.kleinhaneveld/carbon/example.html>, for what it's
worth. Pretty pedestrian, from my perspective.
------
michaelfeathers
It's odd to see compilation to C as a main selling point.
~~~
alexchamberlain
Some of us rather like C...
~~~
cbsmith
Yeah, which is why traditionally a LOT of languages, particularly early in
their careers, have compiled down to C. Really aside from JVM targeted
languages, it still tends to be the trend.
So it is pretty weird for that to be highlighted as the big distinctive
feature.
~~~
rat87
> Yeah, which is why traditionally a LOT of languages, particularly early in
> their careers, have compiled down to C. Really aside from JVM targeted
> languages, it still tends to be the trend.
What about .net/mono targeted languages, javasvcript targeted languages? And
custom interpreters jit(frequently but not always written in c)
~~~
cbsmith
CLR targeted languages are few and far between, as are JavaScript targeted
languages, so I didn't consider them a big enough factor to impact the
"trend".
People focused on entirely new languages tend not to target JITs first for the
same reason they tend to not target direct machine code first: it just adds
complexity to getting a proof of concept out the door. LLVM, the JVM, and yes,
the CLR are starting to change this, but aside from the JVM, there are still
only a handful of languages going that route.
------
FraaJad
While not discouraging the original author, Vala from Gnome has taken this
thinking a lot further. Vala is actually quite fun to use even for non-GUI
projects. And it doesn't have to depend on GTK libraries to produce working
programs.
<https://live.gnome.org/Vala/Documentation>
------
daenney
This is going to be rather confusing, I actually thought someone accidentally
reinvented Carbon, <https://developer.apple.com/carbon/>.
I realise Apple's Carbon doesn't compile to C but my brain's transderivational
search just ignored that fact.
~~~
delinka
Writing Carbon that calls Carbon. Let's call this act Magnesium because ...
fusion.
------
WalterBright
Compiling to C puts some significant constraints on your language. For
example, C doesn't have COMDAT support, thread local storage, exception
handling is limited to setjmp/longjmp, static uplevel function links are a
problem, symbolic debug info is going to all look like C, etc.
~~~
tptacek
I'm not sure I understand how C's lack of high-level exceptions makes a
difference for a high-level language that compiles down to C. The high-level
language can provide exception support, just like large-scale C packages
sometimes do using longjmp.
Similarly, are you really suggesting that C programs can't have thread-local
storage?
~~~
WalterBright
setjmp/longjmp tends to be pretty primitive, compared to decent eh support.
Standard C does not have thread local storage.
~~~
tptacek
Are you missing the fact that we're talking about using C as a substrate for a
higher-level language?
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
So Busy at Work, No Time to Do the Job - jasoncartwright
http://www.wsj.com/articles/so-busy-at-work-no-time-to-do-the-job-1467130588
======
nibs
How is it possible that "managers and knowledge workers now spend 90% to 95%
of their time in meetings, on phone calls and emailing". Do we just have a
shell economy where people are making up communications that need to happen
and calling it work? What a strange world we live in.
~~~
ChuckMcM
I don't think its just "made up work". There are some interesting attempts to
push agile methods out to executives and that can be a challenge. Also the
more senior one is, the more change that is happening in the organization you
have to be at least cognizant of.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
How to Implement Distributed Snapshots in Tera( Modeled After BigTable) - caijieming
https://github.com/baidu/tera/pull/1115
======
caijieming
distributed snapshot algorithm inspired by [http://research.microsoft.com/en-
us/um/people/lamport/pubs/c...](http://research.microsoft.com/en-
us/um/people/lamport/pubs/chandy.pdf)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
The McGurk Effect - An Illusion you will never overcome. - BIackSwan
http://hunch.com/item/hn_3697271/?mp_event=share_click&mp_extra=eyJzaGFyZV9zb3VyY2UiOiAic2hhcmVfdHdpdHRlciJ9
======
iam
Looks like he's biting his lip in the left video, but not in the right video.
I thought it was supposed to be identical except for contrast?
~~~
humbledrone
If you'd like to understand the video, I would suggest watching it. It
contains a thorough description of what it's about, including why the man's
lips have a different shape in the left-hand image.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
America Averages a $47 Cellphone Bill? - codegeek
http://www.cnbc.com/id/49431443
======
amalag
Can republic wireless execute on their plan for a $20 a month unlimited plan
augmented by wifi? Or am I stuck with $75 a month for 2 feature phones. (I
will not pay the exorbitant costs of a smart phone)
------
OldSchool
On T-Mobile USA that is almost exactly what we pay each for 3 smartphones with
unlimited voice, text, and plenty of data, including all taxes and fees.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Anthem’s emergency room coverage denials draw scrutiny - arkades
https://www.ajc.com/news/state--regional-govt--politics/anthem-emergency-room-coverage-denials-draw-scrutiny/sWT8ts3TYv6vNjrEN99kdO/
======
arkades
Traditionally, policy states that ER utilization is covered by a prudent
layman's standard: if a reasonable person would think their condition is an
emergency, then the ER visit is covered.
Anthem/BCBS is now changing it to a retroactive review. If one of their
medical staff now thinks, retroactively, that a condition didn't merit an ER
visit - even if there's _no reasonable way_ a layman would know that - they're
denying coverage. They're basically arguing that their post-hoc review is a
reasonable interpretation of the prudent layperson standard, where "prudent
layperson" means "health insurance company algo."
It's a ridiculous policy stance, and one that is going to cost lives. There's
no reasonable way for a layman to know whether their chest pain is
musculoskeletal or ischemic in nature. Going to the ER with a suspected heart
attack is _appropriate_. Anthem now says, hey, if that doesn't turn out to
have been a heart attack - even if you had no way of knowing that - your ER
visit will not be covered. They're actively encouraging people with heart
attacks not to present to the emergency room.
This is the most repulsive move I've ever seen in the private insurance
industry, and I've seen some stuff in my career.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
After a Terrible 2019, Blizzard Is Going All-In at BlizzCon - partingshots
https://kotaku.com/after-a-terrible-2019-blizzard-is-going-all-in-at-bliz-1839425018
======
jammygit
There is a lot of talk about protests at blizzcon. I hope the participants
succeed and can keep the media’s attention on this issue, this has been the
best anti-censorship PR in a long time. A big enough community reaction could
actually get blizzard to change policy a little bit
------
strictnein
They'll announce Diablo 4, Starcraft 3, and something else cool (no matter how
along they actually are in development or how far out their release date is)
and then we'll all forget what a mess they made of things.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
MIT team develops 3D printer that's 10x faster than comparable 3D printers - sswu
https://www.3ders.org/articles/20181207-mit-team-develop-3d-printer-thats-10x-faster-than-comparable-3d-printers.html
======
slededit
I wonder why they needed the laser pre-heater. I can't imagine it is that
dramatically more effective than resistive heating. Even if it is, just having
a longer pre-heater to make up for it would have to be cheaper.
EDIT: Did a bit of research, a major benefit of laser heating is direct
control of energy transfer so you can be sure your heating the plastic to the
right temperature regardless of how fast its moving through the heater. Still,
aren't all these advantages eliminated by the traditional primary heater
immediately after?
~~~
nickparker
The laser penetrates the filament heating it internally instead of only
heating the outer surface. It's near-infrared (808 nm) so it heats the small
cylinder of filament essentially uniformly throughout its volume.
It's also nice because they can vary laser power much more effectively than
you can vary the temperature of a conduction surface.
[https://arxiv.org/pdf/1709.05918.pdf](https://arxiv.org/pdf/1709.05918.pdf)
~~~
sometimesijust
And it is low friction since it does not need surface contact.
------
japhyr
> All technologies are improved with lasers.
I love this writing style, clear and informative but playful at the same time.
~~~
johnyesberg
Sounds like a quote from Dr Evil.
------
kentlyons
Here is the paper they published:
[https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1709/1709.05918.pdf](https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1709/1709.05918.pdf)
And the press release from last year:
[http://news.mit.edu/2017/new-3-d-printer-10-times-faster-
com...](http://news.mit.edu/2017/new-3-d-printer-10-times-faster-commercial-
counterparts-1129)
------
dmritard96
I dont think I have ever read an article about MIT students that didnt start
its headline with MIT, is this university policy of some sort?
~~~
suyash
It's the name that sells :)
------
karmakaze
10x faster is a substantial achievement for anyone waiting for 3D items being
made.
For the technology as a whole we need something that changes more than a
constant factor, i.e. better than O(n^3) because we're still using filament
that's time proportional to volume of the object.
This isn't entirely clear cut though. For instance laser printers technically
do trace a dot of light across a page, but a single raster scan is almost
instantaneous compared to the time scales of larger operations. Not having to
physically move a 'print head' seems to be the winning design.
~~~
abecedarius
The 'obvious' way to do that: parallel heads across the whole surface, so time
is O(height). Feynman brought this up in
[https://people.eecs.berkeley.edu/~pister/290G/Papers/Feynman...](https://people.eecs.berkeley.edu/~pister/290G/Papers/Feynman83.pdf)
(an 80s followup to "Plenty of Room at the Bottom"):
> You should have a thicker machine with tubes and pipes that brings in
> chemicals. Tubes with controllable valves - all very tiny. What I want is to
> build in three dimensions by squirting the various substances from different
> holes that are electrically controlled, and by rapidly working my way back
> and doing layer after layer, I make a three-dimensional pattern.
Added: since mechanical frequencies scale up as size scales down, this sort of
design would ideally scale as O(1). That is, with smaller parts and increasing
resolution, you have O(n^2) parts, each working O(n) faster, to produce O(n^3)
units times O(n^-3) unit volume = O(1) volume per unit time.
~~~
johnday
This form of fabrication exists and is known as DLP. I have a DLP printer that
cost me less than £500.
~~~
abecedarius
Neat, I didn't know of that!
Feynman was looking further out to a machine not limited to one material at a
time.
------
tbenst
10x faster is a bit exaggerated; maybe 2-3x faster than typical desktop FFF
and still slower than HP or Carbon
~~~
brandonjm
Just at a glance it looks about 10x faster than my Prusa, but I agree it
wouldn't be much more than 2-3x faster than larger scale printers for sure. I
don't think Carbon would come under "comparable 3D printers" as it is resin
based which is often faster.
------
crwalker
Fused filament fabrication (FFF) is fighting against physics in the same way
that O(n) vs O(n^2) vs O(n!) algorithms have wildly different performance at
scale.
It's a point solution, depositing ~1 voxel per unit of time. Running print
heads in parallel is still O(1). Speeding up the print head runs out of steam
because you run into vibration limits for the machinery (you can hear the
rattling in the audio for this article). To really scale you need to deposit
~n voxels per unit of time (HP's MJF technology) or ~n^2 (Carbon's CLIP).
You need lots of voxels for high resolution for most applications. There are
certain exceptions like prototyping in PETG or 3D printing concrete houses
where the speed limitations of FFF may not be a big issue. But for 3D printing
to compete with many forms of traditional manufacturing, simultaneous parallel
structuring of matter is key.
------
akhilcacharya
How does this compare to Carbon?
[https://www.carbon3d.com/](https://www.carbon3d.com/)
~~~
pasta
That's a good question because at the moment Carbon printers are the fastest
and (most important) produce production ready materials.
------
yosito
Fast and loud! Holy hell! I thought dot matrix printers were loud.
------
ngcc_hk
As hobby goes 3D printer really no good. Laser is fast and even some Cnc ok.
But hours and hours ...
Hope this help as having a 3D model of your favourite item is great.
Especially you can like programming iterate through it quickly.
Learning is part of the fun.
~~~
amelius
Well if you order an object online, then you have to wait 1+ days for it to
arrive ;)
~~~
jakobegger
More like 2 weeks for Shapeways...
------
boulos
From the headline, I assumed this was going to be an MIT writeup of Inkbit.
Instead it seems to be another MIT group but at the opposite end of the
quality spectrum (this is low-ish quality but super fast, while Inkbit is high
quality and yet fast). Cool!
~~~
samstave
More info on inkbit please.
------
walrus01
Regarding "normal" 3d printer technology, anyone who's thinking of getting a
basic one to play around with, take a look at the Creality CR-10S. It sells
for $369. There's lots of youtube videos of sample output from it and reviews.
The bigger version of the same thing which can print 50 x 50 x 50 cm volume,
the CR-10S5 is $629.
I have no connection to the manufacturer or Chinese vendors, just throwing the
name of something I'm satisfied with out there.
~~~
brianwawok
Ender3 can be found under $200 and is excellent. I think it is similar to the
10s
------
jmpman
Sweet. Let’s see a benchy.
~~~
LanceH
They should compare speeds printing benches.
------
aeleos
These are some really cool and novel developments at improving the speed of 3d
printers. While some of these might take a while (or forever) to come to
desktop 3d printers its great that advancements like these are being made to
push 3d printing forward.
------
crankylinuxuser
I saw this 2 years ago. Long story short, you need a fiber laser and a driving
circuit to do this.
Sure it's 10x the speed, but it's almost 100x the price.
A Creality Ender 3 is around $200. This printer, with fiber laser, is around
$15-20k.
And the Ender 3 can't make moves that fast. The Atmega chip is just a 16 MHz
chip. You can't generate the steps required even using Klipper firmware (which
is a bitbanging firmware that uses your desktop CPU as motion planner). You
could generate the steps using one of the ARM based boards, but you'd double
your BOM - Smoothieboard and Duet both would be around the $150-$200 but can
generate the required steps. The BeagleBone Black can generate upwards of 1M
steps/sec, which is on the high end of pro-sumer.
It's awesome, but it's a pie-in-the-sky that most of us would never even have
the source to buy, let alone approach.
~~~
ravedave5
Don't forget all 3d printers were 15k not that long ago.
~~~
crankylinuxuser
Unfortunately, a large portion of that was due to patent interference from
Stratasys. [https://hackaday.com/2013/09/11/3d-printering-key-
patents/](https://hackaday.com/2013/09/11/3d-printering-key-patents/)
2009 was when the patent expired. And that's when RepRap picked up rather
quickly. The patent was handled since 1989 reminded me the same way the
Wrights brought avionics to its knees in the US until the US busted the patent
for WWI.
To make a 3d printer, all you need is a slow controller for handing gcode, 4
stepper controllers, 4 stepper motors, thermistors, heated bed, and heated
tip. Worst case, before being able to buy calibrated filament, you could use
weed whacker line, and put in its equivalent diameter
However, one trend I see, is that optics does _not_ lower in price. Sure,
lasers have gotten cheaper. But when you talk about 200 laser diodes at 5w
each and using a complicated assortment of lenses and glass fiber optics, that
stuff's $$$$$. The costs can come down from $50k to $20k, but it's still way
out of the reach of 'buy on ebay or amazon'.
------
ncmncm
I like the last comment, that says the pic is not of the people named, and
that one of the professors named is not a professor.
Who are those guys, then?
------
jeffchuber
3ders is one of the best blogs in 3D - worth a follow
------
KaiserPro
The threaded filament feed is a really nice touch.
------
crocal
Printer is coming...
------
stevespang
>Grace wrote at 12/8/2018 1:45:34 AM:
>That picture is neither Jamison nor Professor Hart; and >Jamison Go is a PhD
student, not a professor
------
Pica_soO
If you could have a liquid 3D printer below the starting surface and a solid
PLA printer above, you could start in the middle of the object and print into
two directions, at twice the speed. Of course- the basic question remains,
what holds the middle? Retractable titanium bolt?
------
pontifier
I've got a design for a printer that should be about 10,000 times faster than
this.
It's really a game of data transfer speed. How fast can you transfer
information about solid vs non-solid into space?
The velocity and acceleration of that printer is very impressive, but maxing
out the movement speed of a single physical nozzle is not going to get us
where we need to be in the future.
If anyone is interested in collaborating with me, I'd love to talk.
~~~
thanksDr
Can you give us an outline?
~~~
pontifier
Sure, the basic idea is to separate data transfer from what I call locking.
Data transfer can be done quickly, then locking can happen passively at
whatever rate it needs.
Data transfer can take many forms. A simple example is an array of
needles,pointing downward, forming a horizontal plane. The plane of needles is
withdrawn upward through a granular material and dropplets of glue bind the
material only where it should be hardened. In this example there is a
resolution tradeoff, but you can see that the "printing" is basically
completed in one pass of the plane through the print volume.
Holographic processes could transfer data to the entire volume at once.
The key is looking at the problem as a data transfer problem. We are very good
at moving data very quickly.
~~~
analognoise
The number of pins in such a design would dictate your surface roughness.
Where would you be loading the glue from, if they're also being drawn through
the binder.
Also, glue doesn't set instantaneously. I can see only problems with this
approach?
~~~
pontifier
That is the resolution tradeoff with this particular method. Each needle would
be fed from a tube connected to its own control valve. Non bound material
would act as support while the glue (or other binding agent) worked.
In my imagination I see a chair made from shredded tires, and bonded with a
silicon caulking like substance. The shredded tires would be filled into a
container between the needles as the printing array rises.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
The problem with ideas - comet
http://startuppr.tumblr.com/post/19279011613/the-problem-with-ideas
======
padwiki
Friendly tip. You might want to consider a font that has a little more weight
to it. I had an extremely difficult time reading any of the text. Tried
zooming in, moving to a different monitor, but eventually just gave up, even
though I really wanted to read the entire post.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Show HN: Net:SSH:CLI – A Gem to Work with CLI Sessions - faebi
https://github.com/swisscom/net-ssh-cli
======
faebi
I just wanted to share my simple gem I am using at work for a while now.
Originally I was using a custom version of net-ssh-telnet for a long time. I
use this gem to handle long-running SSH CLI Sessions on Network Equipment
which can't handle multiple Channels per SSH connection. In an ideal world
this gem wouldn't be needed, but here I am. I use this gem for various scripts
and apps to get and write data to our equipment. The main problem this gem
tries to solve is to handle the state of an unreliable text stream. It has
various methods to work with the current buffer and to wait for a certain
output. In my case I can't just rely on looking for a prompt on the CLI
session since there are many inconsistencies on the CLI implementations.
It's used on equipment of multiple vendors but sometimes I just use it to run
a few commands on our servers.
I assume there are many better ways to implement this buffer-handling and
waiting logic. I also found it quite hard to get the performance right and to
deal with net-ssh itself. To be honest, I wouldn't consider this my best work
at all, but it does it's job nicely and is a pleasure to use compared to
everything else I have seen.
You can try it yourself:
gem install net-ssh-cli
require 'net/ssh/cli'
require 'readline'
Net::SSH.start('localhost', ENV["USER"], password: Readline.readline("Enter your password:")) do |ssh|
cli = ssh.cli(default_prompt: /(#{ENV["USER"]}.*\z)/) # lets hope your prompt contains your username
puts cli.cmd "ls -alh"
puts cli.cmd "echo 'hello hackernews reader'"
end
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Show HN: We decided not to apply to YC so we could try Kickstarter - iamjonlee
Hey everyone! We spent the major part of the year preparing an idea we had for the YC application. At last minute, we decided not to go through with YC.<p>I mean, we've had our fair shares of failed startups and this was one of those make it or break it scenarios. We took everything we've ever learned and strived to make an app that we were proud of. We spent so much effort into making this app that we couldn't bear stopping short and applying to Y Combinator. (Mind you, there's nothing wrong with YC.) We didn't want to apply to Y Combinator at the last minute because if we had really gone that far and really poured our souls into this time, we might as well go all the way and instead ask for funding from Kickstarter. This the app that we've always dreamed of making and we're finally getting close. We've spent inch by bloody, paintstaking inch working on it and it seriously feels good to finally let if off our chestslana del rey by showing off what we learned during our time as entrepreneurs. Thank you for your time!<p>Persona is your autobiography in graphic novel style. It's everything you are, in pictures.<p>http://www.prsna.me
======
ruedaminute
I think there might be a good nugget at the core of this, however I've already
spent a minute on your site and watching your kickstarter video and am still
unclear on exactly what it is the app does. And especially, why it's different
from any other photo gallery out there. I think you guys need to work on
communicating your product-- maybe talk to a copywriter friend or something,
have them clarify your ideas for you. The good news- I like the design of your
site. And the tagline -- graphic novel of your life -- is appealing to me. But
it does not yet translate from what I can see into your product. Good luck!
------
davidcann
The design is good and the app sounds interesting, but the rewards on
kickstarter are lackluster. $60 for an ebook, a sticker, and 5 business cards
isn't very enticing, so I'd suggest reworking the rewards, if possible.
~~~
iamjonlee
Thanks for the feedback! I get what you mean but I see it a bit differently.
I've pledged on several Kickstarter projects that offered absolutely no
incentive besides sending me a thank you email. I do it for the same reason
that I donate to charities, for the sake of hopefully seeing an awesome
ending/finished product some day. I understand this kind of thinking might
seem naive, so I do want to expand on this a little bit further. We chose the
rewards carefully because we simply don't have the resources to do much more.
Kickstarter + Amazon payment gate way take 5-8% of your pledge money. That
money is taxed as income. We're realistically looking at roughly 30% of the
pledge money to be taken off from the top before we even consider the rewards.
The unspoken rule that Kickstarters seem to follow is that they offer all
previous pledge rewards with each reward tier.
This means that the sticker, 5 business cards (after paying for shipping of
cards to my house) shipping of those items to you and including the hours it
will take me to write the ebook,we're barely left with enough to pay for
development costs. Having to need to create fancier, and more seemingly
valuable rewards will definitely attract more users, but require more time
from us because we'll need to do most of the work by ourselves. This
ultimately cuts down from our development time and time is money. I would
technically have more money to contribute to the app than the $60 pledge if I
worked by the hour. The only problem then is that I wouldn't be working on the
app, which in turns makes the whole project pointless.
I would really love if I could do more for the people who are helping out and
supporting my cause, but I just have my hands tied. I sincerely appreciate
your honest and open feedback because it really helps to let me understand
what people's first impressions are and it'll help me try and figure out at
least some kind of solution to this problem. Thank you!
------
bira
Cool. What problem does it solve?
~~~
iamjonlee
I guess Persona is still a pretty enigmatic topic. We're trying to build an
app that focuses on you rather than your friends. In other words, it's an
about me page, in pictures.
Through pictures, you're able to learn hundreds of things about a friend that
you might never think of asking. What's their favorite color, their allergies,
what do they like to do on the weekends? Rather than a timeline, Persona
encourages users to post photos of anything that makes them who they are.
Persona asks people "What does this photo mean to you?" because when you
answer that, it's no longer just a photo sharing application. It's become an
intimate bond that people can connect to. Do you like eating cold pizza? I do
too. what other things do you eat cold? I think cold rice is disgusting
though. It's at that moment that I can feel a more personal connection towards
a stranger that I've never met by talking about the idiosyncrasies that make
you who you are.
Persona is everything you are, in pictures.
~~~
mbylstra
I think this 'problem' is already being solved pretty well by Tumblr and
Pinterest. Tumblr is mainly used (by teenagers) to post images of things they
think represent them (an activity that is very popular with teenages - the
same reason they like to put up band posters in their bedrooms). I think
Tumblr was meant to be a blogging platform, but this has become its main use.
Pinterest can be seen as an extension of this but with more features (ability
to group things rather than just having a single stream). I think a great deal
of the success of Tumblr and Pinterest can be attributed to their extreme ease
of use: to build up an online persona all you need to do is browse peoples'
profiles and click 'reblog' or 'pin' - no need to even pull out your
smartphone camera. My advice would be to make your app integrate well with
these two services (offering an easy interface to upload photos from your
phone) and try to slowly ween users from these services.
~~~
iamjonlee
I get what you mean and where you're coming from but Persona's concept is
still pretty different. People do post images of things they think will
represent them, but that doesn't say much about who they are. Anyone can post
photographs and upload them, but it's the meaning behind the photograph that
creates a bond. For example: If I take a picture of Hot Cheetos and post it on
Tumblr or Pinterest, people who view it will normally associate me being
interested or liking Hot Cheetos. But the truth is, nobody cares because
millions of people like Hot Cheetos as well. On Persona, we focus purely on
things around you that make you who you are; when you post an image, we ask
you "what does this mean to you?" If I were to post Hot cheetos on Persona,
I'd say "Hot cheetos are musthaves for me when I'm programming." That might
not mean everything to everyone, but for the people that can really relate to
it, it becomes an intimate connection. It's all the small idiosyncrasies that
describe who you are.
It's difficult to fully depict the differences because all apps of similar
nature have some sort of overlapping. For example, most people still can't
fully explain why Path is so different from Facebook. I use Path but I can't
seem to tell people why it's different, aside from the fact that you have a
private network vs a public one. If you're asked, "How is Tumblr different
from Pinterest?", you'd have just as hard a time answering.
From what I see, Tumblr and Pinterest users don't answer the question of why
they post something. I use Tumblr for the sake of killing time and just seeing
what pops up and reblog and share things that I think are cool. When I post on
Tumblr, I don't think "how does this relate to my life?" I used to ride a
motorcycle so I like reblogging nice bikes on Tumblr but that doesn't mean
anything to anyone. It doesn't tell the story of how I saved up money to get
my first motorcycle, the first time I dropped my bike, or how upset my parents
were with me buying it. For me, Tumblr is just a great, mindless way to kill
time.
Pinterest for me, is a better way of organizing my bookmarks. I share links
and photos from other sites because they interest me. Like with Tumblr, I
don't necessarily stop to think why I'm putting a photo to my board- it's just
a great way to visualize all the things that interest me and my friends on one
page. I have a section for recipes, a section for funny stuff, another section
for just cool arts and craft stuff. I browse Pinterest by categories just to
find something cool/interesting that I want to go back to afterwards. It's a
great service because I've use my browser bookmarking feature a lot less now.
Here's a question I asked myself for Tumblr and Pinterest: "Can you figure out
what your friend would want as a practical gift for her birthday?" I wouldn't
be able to; my friend shares everything from recipes to pictures of dogs to
wedding gowns. But truth is- she's doesn't cook, is allergic to dogs, and is
already married. It wouldn't make sense to buy her a dog or kitchenware right?
Knowing that she doesn't cook, that she's allergic to dogs would be the prime
examples of the kind of personal understanding you'll have of someone on
Persona. It's not about what you're liking, reblogging or upvoting. It's about
the real side of you, the one where you parents and only close friends know
about.
Thanks for the feedback!
~~~
RuggeroAltair
Why did you take off your kickstarter? Are you trying different ways of
getting funded? I almost thought you gave up since the kickstarter page
doesn't say much about the cancelation.
~~~
iamjonlee
Hey! Thanks for asking. We got about $4.2k in funding in 3 days. While this
was a pretty good start, we realized a few factors.
1) We weren't going to make our Kickstarter goal at the rate we were going
because at the rate the pledges were adding up, we would be short by a large
sum of our initial asking $48,000. A good part of the pledges were actually
from friends and family so it further adds to the possibility that the
Kickstarter goal wouldn't be reached anyways.
2) With the feedback we've gotten on HN and other sites, we've realized that
we really really need to cut down on our description and go over it again with
the copywriter to rewrite it so that it's absurdly simple to understand how
our product is different. Nobody is going to read 5 paragraphs of how why
you're different and if people keep asking us why we're different, we're doing
something wrong with our copy.
3) People are interested in the product but not willing to pledge. I got an
email from a few people that it sounds like an amazing app but they don't want
to pledge because they needed more information (our fault again- our video
only showed a very basic view of the app because we had just finished a quick
prototype without any features when we shot the video) and so they wanted to
see if they could have a beta test or more screenshots of the app before they
pledge. If they have to request this of me, again, we're doing something
wrong.
I've learned a lot with the whole Kickstarter deal in the 3 days it lasted-
we're going with an even better marketing plan. For now, we're looking at
alternative funding and have actually applied to YC late. As you said, it's
not just about the funding. We lack advice and guidance in many other areas.
We also lack the connections that YC can offer you with the tech community. If
need be, then we'll do Kickstarter again when our point is clarified and
people understand what we're about.
Meanwhile, we're just improving, revising, and making our overall product
ready for launch. It'll be amazing.
~~~
RuggeroAltair
I agree with everything you said. I hope you'll make it into YC. Good luck
guys!
------
RuggeroAltair
Honestly I don't understand from your post what the reason for not applying to
YC was.
~~~
iamjonlee
You're absolutely right. I never actually stated what my reasons were. Sorry,
we had been up too many hours by the time we wrote the earlier HN post so we
left out our reasons entirely.
Like a lot of the other startups here on HN, we're boot-strapped. We have
basically no funding besides our own personal savings and a dream that we'd
like to persue. When you're in that situation, you're forced to really get
down and dirty and try to do everything yourself. Nobody will miraculously
jump out and offer you a hand, so you're forced to learn everything and try
new ways of entering the market by yourself. From each time we've failed a
startup, we always learned something new. We took that experience and used it
to build what we have today, Persona. It's like riding a bike, you keep
falling and injuring yourself but eventually you learn. That's how we feel
about Persona. We're confident enough that this is the app that's different
from all the other times we've tried.
So back to the topic, because we've gone so far doing everything hands on
ourselves, we wanted to try and get funding ourselves without having to rely
on YC. We get that YC is a fantastic program and they have exactly the right
connections to put you in the spotlight, but if we join YC now without trying
ourselves the very last step (getting money to continue), we'll regret that
decision for the rest of our lives. Because we'll never know then if we would
have been capable of making a dent in the startup community we live in. It'll
answer the question "Are you able to successfully grow your userbase and
product without relying on VCs or Angels?". Thanks for the heads up!
~~~
bira
Have you already watched DHH's "How to Make Money Online" presentation
([http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CDXJ6bMkMY&feature=playe...](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CDXJ6bMkMY&feature=player_embedded))?
If not, watch it ASAP.
If you go down the bootstrapping road, you must have profits coming in, to
fund and further the development of your product. Sooner or later you will
have to make money and since you don't seem to have a lot of funds laying
around, the sooner the better.
Moreover, have you validated your idea(s) (included the previous, failed
attempts to excute them and build a viable business)?
Are you sure that there are enough people out there with the burning desire to
throw money at you for this app to make it worth the hustle?
(assuming you want to sell your app, which would be the best and most simple
way to make money)
As PG says, the worst mistake one can make trying to build a company is
building something THEY think is NEEDED by their customers and not what the
market actually needs. Listen to your audience.
Do the people need an iphone app to "truly define us"?
Creating a kickstarter campaign was a good move, by the response you'll get
you'll understand if you are solving a real problem or not.
To expose more people to your app (and validate it or not with a wider set of
data) you can use an adwords\facebook voucher and create a campaign (just
search for them).
Link to your homepage, track how many visitors opt in vs how many of them just
land and bounce away, not interested.
Ask questions on Answers sites, open threads on forums your ideal customer
hangs out, the more eyeballs the better.
Best wishes
~~~
bira
BTW I liked your previous headline more. (thanks to Google cache)
"It's everything you are, in pictures" is clearer and easier to understand
than "your autobiography in graphic novel style".
I still think you miss something unique and diverse at a feature level (what
your app can do that other don't) and not on a concept level ("IT'S ABOUT YOU!
NOT YOUR FRIENDS OR FAMILY, BUT YOU!").
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Show HN: React Drag-N-Drop Email Editor - idrism
https://github.com/unroll-io/react-email-editor
======
adeelraza
Hey, developer of this React component here. I run several SaaS startups and
we always wanted a good email editor that we can quickly embed in our
applications. Couldn't find one that's free and solid so we decided to build
one.
It takes less than 5 minutes to get started with this React component. Would
love to hear your thoughts and feedback.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
The Minnesota Starvation Experiment - elil17
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Starvation_Experiment
======
Someone
“The motivation of the study was twofold: first, to produce a definitive
treatise on the subject of human starvation […]
The study […] used 36 _men_ […] The subjects were all white males, with ages
ranging from 22 to 33 years old.“
No ethics committee would allow a truly definitive study, as that would
include kids and pregnant women, and female volunteers would be harder to
find, but this was either “everyday sexism” or just laziness. Male volunteers
in that age range were easier to find, given military conscription.
~~~
elil17
No ethics board today would allow this study at all. That said, the key
finding was that people recovering from starvation need very large amounts of
calories but specific nutrients don’t matter very much. There’s no reason to
expect this wouldn’t be generalizable.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Israel military detects 6 blasts, each 11 seconds apart, before Beirut explosion - Khelavaster
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-lebanon-security-blast-seismology/seismic-data-suggests-string-of-blasts-preceded-beirut-explosion-israeli-analyst-idUSKCN2591S2
======
fghorow
Geophysicist here.
These 11 second periodic blasts are due to airguns from a Turkish seismic
survey vessel that happened to be working in the region. N.B. they continued
_after_ the Beirut explosion.
Here's a (long; thanks Zuck) link to a FB post from IRIS (the Incorporated
Research Institutions for Seismology):
[https://www.facebook.com/IRISEarthquake/photos/a.36102058997...](https://www.facebook.com/IRISEarthquake/photos/a.361020589973/10158943990109974/?type=3&__xts__%5B0%5D=68.ARCQ2xtt4S6O1JJO8mz4ReWWCGs8NwcCVEH32leM7QYUR-
Bm7TcXyFn0P7i6gkQLJC2Kg5-DSIXusJwqBq85SVzU2NYJomn6xm1bZniYFT4wuxihBPVQ-
RU6xhJTIhO5LYfAZa0uUq7uPjriyW1_n8qj_uYB2ozR8Zcv4KFdSxyHbGxmqFGYLwdCsA0kwDe_fwigH1_FfqHjUKav-
tNLGZL6VB9v1GGINF656LCAZFtXCPNGrEy3-2ErJkHs5y0lZ_Y6ijrd5RsOLTiDnOx-
HUAemv7Cm_rG29dYqdMrzkls05q4YQw2j61z9H7XGjM200V6akNWB-0SvNWuLrCo&__tn__=-R)
------
ceejayoz
> “I do not believe that they are associated with the large explosion in
> Beirut,” Jerry Carter, director of IRIS data services, told Reuters.
> “They could be from a seismic survey,” he added, referring to geologists
> carrying out airgun bursts for underwater mapping.
------
dogma1138
It’s not the Israeli military that claims that, it’s an Israeli seismologist
that works for an oil company.
------
xref
> Hayoun assessed that the Beirut incident involved underground explosions.
> The 43-metre (140-foot) deep crater at the port could not have been left by
> the explosion of the amount of ammonium nitrate reported by Lebanese
> authorities, he said: “It would have been shallower, maximum 25 or 30
> metres.”
To make a claim about “maximum crater depth” seems like you’d need a lot of
data about the ground composition below the storage area, and if the anfo was
in a concrete silo that could amplify the blast by letting pressure build
before failing etc
------
stunt
They should also investigate how the fire started in the warehouse. Some
warehouse fire setting are just arson or have business motivations like
insurance fraud. In many cases they have no idea what else is stored in the
warehouse and things can go really wrong.
------
tyingq
Interesting that Isreal is (maybe) capable of detecting far away fireworks
bursts. I wonder how they filter out meaningless noise.
~~~
thephyber
My naïve guess is that it's used to assist in triangulating where incoming
rockets / mortars are fired from.
Edit: I read the article and it has nothing to do with the Iron Dome (unless
it's military equipment posing as science equipment).
~~~
Zenst
Also tunnels - [https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-israel-lebanon/israel-
to-b...](https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-israel-lebanon/israel-to-build-
anti-tunnel-sensor-network-along-lebanon-border-idUKKBN1ZI08C?il=0)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Are You Living in a Fourth Amendment Exclusion Zone? - scotty79
http://www.storyleak.com/are-you-living-in-fourth-amendment-exclusion-zone/
======
eli
I think it's a story that deserves to be told, but this particular blog adds
very little value over the source material the ACLU published in 2006-2008:
[http://www.aclu.org/national-security_technology-and-
liberty...](http://www.aclu.org/national-security_technology-and-liberty/are-
you-living-constitution-free-zone)
Here's the HN discussion from two years ago:
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1961071>
------
mutagen
A friend shared this video of assorted people exercising their fourth
amendment rights at some of these internal checkpoints:
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4Ku17CqdZg>
Predictably it isn't long before Godwin's Law is invoked.
While some were obviously successful through simple civil disobedience, I
wonder how others turned out. The guy that apparently ignored an order to pull
into secondary may have had a rougher go at it. The California agricultural
inspections have stood up to challenge [1] and I sympathize with their purpose
more so than a 'zone' including most of the population of the country.
[1] <http://law.justia.com/cases/california/calapp3d/104/505.html>
~~~
RyanMcGreal
> Predictably it isn't long before Godwin's Law is invoked.
The purpose of Godwin's Law is not to gainsay all comparisons to Hitler and
the Nazis, but rather to gainsay _inappropriate_ comparisons. I would argue
that a US federal law enforcement checkpoint that clearly, unambiguously and
persistently violates the US Bill of Rights is a reasonable place to start
thinking about other governments that violate human rights. The comparison to
Nazi Germany may by hyperbolic but it's not beyond the pale.
------
biot
The solution to this is to find a whole bunch of DHS employees who feel that
these seizures are unjust and who are authorized to perform seizures
themselves. Then have them go around rampantly seizing as much as they can
from as many high-profile people as they can. Seize the devices from judges,
lawyers, congress members, TV reporters, actors, children, and so on. Only by
flagrantly exercising the "rights" the DHS claims they have will sanity
ultimately prevail. They may lose their jobs, but I'm sure there's people
willing to make that small sacrifice for defending liberty.
~~~
FireBeyond
"They may lose their jobs, but I'm sure there's people willing to make that
small sacrifice for defending liberty."
Are you? It's remarkably easy to say that getting fired from your job to make
a point is but a "small sacrifice" when it's not your job, your livelihood,
your family and/or home on the line.
If it's such a small sacrifice, perhaps some people could game the system -
apply for a job with DHS (they're hiring!
[https://dhs.usajobs.gov/JobSearch/Search/GetResults?Keyword=...](https://dhs.usajobs.gov/JobSearch/Search/GetResults?Keyword=border&Location=&search.x=-1475&search.y=-403&search=Search%21&AutoCompleteSelected=False)),
and do this to make a point. In fact, I volunteer you for this noble, but
small, sacrifice, that you're so willing to suggest others do.
~~~
biot
I'm not American but if I were and working at the DHS already and hated where
things have been going, then for sure I would. I spent some time in the
reserves knowing full well that I could be called to defend my country with my
life. How utterly trivial in comparison losing one's job is. I wouldn't
recommend it for someone with a family, kids, and a mortgage but if you're
young and single, why not? Who cares about keeping a job that consists of
depriving your fellow citizens of their constitutional rights?
~~~
freddealmeida
I'm not sure some one like that would actually work in the DHS. It would be
anathema to them. Is it possible to sue them for this? Even if you yourself
have not yet had your rights removed?
------
jbellis
I see a bunch of stories about this recently, but they all seem to derive from
this 2008 one: [http://www.aclu.org/blog/technology-and-liberty/homeland-
sec...](http://www.aclu.org/blog/technology-and-liberty/homeland-security-
assuming-broad-powers-turning-vast-swaths-us)
Has there been any actual new reporting since then?
~~~
ibejoeb
Cases are making their way through the courts. House v. Napolitano is the
furthest along, I think. The court denied the government's motion to dismiss.
[http://www.uscourts.gov/Multimedia/Cameras/DistrictofMassach...](http://www.uscourts.gov/Multimedia/Cameras/DistrictofMassachusetts/11-cv-10852.aspx)
I really think this just needs to move up the chain. I can't imagine higher
level courts weakening the fourth amendment.
~~~
largesse
Is this a case where the plaintiff actually crossed the border, or an
exclusion zone case where he just happened to be within about 50 miles of the
border?
~~~
pfedor
It was at the O'Hare airport:
[http://www.aclu.org/files/assets/2011.09.21_-_doc_17_-_pl._s...](http://www.aclu.org/files/assets/2011.09.21_-_doc_17_-_pl._statement_of_material_facts_and_response_to_defs.__statement_of_material_f.pdf)
~~~
largesse
Not the best case for the original issue then.
~~~
ibejoeb
Why not? It's in the zone. House is a US citizen. The only complicating factor
is that he was involved in political speech, so now we're dealing with first
amendment issues, too.
------
pfedor
Let me repeat what has been said in the other Hacker News threads about the
same story:
This is neither the law nor the actual practice in the US. It is just
something crazy that DHS once said. If they ever actually searched someone 100
miles away from the border, that person could sue and there is no reason to
believe that the verdict would be different from Almeida-Sanchez v. United
States.
~~~
ck2
What you are repeating is wrong.
There are checkpoints a hundred miles from the border in many states and
several videos of people suffering horrible results when they refuse searches
at these checkpoints.
The TSA also routinely performs searches far from the border with their VIPR
team. (because someone might drive a train into a building?
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visible_Intermodal_Prevention_a...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visible_Intermodal_Prevention_and_Response_team)
)
~~~
stock_toaster
Interesting section in that wikipedia about Amtrak temporarily banning
TSA/VIPR from its property.
~~~
ck2
That ban is over and VIPR has been back at train stations since.
Here's a story from January 2013
[http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/local/east_bay...](http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/local/east_bay&id=8957075)
The most alarming part is how the "news" is now seemingly okay with all this.
------
mpyne
Well on the one hand you have to draw the "customs/immigration enforcement"
line _somewhere_. And "defense in depth" certainly makes as much sense in the
real world as it does in computer security.
But on the other hand I don't see a way for this to actually appreciably
positively affect U.S. border security without stripping away most of what it
means to be an American at all.
Even random checks at a high enough interval to give a good chance at making
it too risky to attempt a terrorist plot would be tremendously impacting on
day-to-day life. The effect of the DHS would be much more severe than the
effect of any supposed terrorists themselves!
Better instead to use any such resources on things more beneficial to the
common welfare, and to get rid of the extraneous legal authority.
------
hakaaaaak
I am in support of privacy and therefore I'm in support of the ACLU in theory
on this one, but...
That map is fucking ridiculous. There is no way they would search in the
middle of a rural area without access from waterway, etc., and yet that is
what much of this map highlights. Even if it is "factually correct", it isn't
realistic, even for the most nutcase DHS employee. The everglades? Give me a
fucking break.
[http://cdn.storyleak.com/wp-
content/uploads/2013/02/fourth-a...](http://cdn.storyleak.com/wp-
content/uploads/2013/02/fourth-amendment-free-zone-dhs.gif)
~~~
burntsushi
Huh? That map highlights 2/3 of the country's population because of dense
population centers near the coast. Just because it happens to overlap with the
everglades is kind of irrelevant.
~~~
hakaaaaak
It isn't just the everglades. Most of the area covered is rural, swampland,
farmland, etc. and would not be under suspicion, ever. It is a ridiculous map.
It would be one thing if waterways and major cities were highlighted, but it
is just over the top, completely. Highlighting all of it makes people in those
areas worry unnecessarily when they need not. Finally, Homeland Security does
not have the resources to implement searches in all of these places, nor will
they knock on the door of every random apartment in Washington, D.C.
This is a sideshow to real privacy problems and a waste of my time and yours.
The ACLU should be focused on the fact that our communications are being
monitored, because that is something that is much more worrisome.
------
downandout
Appalling, but sadly, not at all surprising. We have not-so-slowly been losing
our rights for a very long time.
~~~
JulianMorrison
It's the other way around.
The America the constitution talks about never existed. Most especially if you
were black or female, but even if you were white and male if you were poor, or
a union organizer, or a communist, or an anarchist, or a protester, or a
striker, or a member of an unusual religion. In fact basically it was a pack
of lies for anyone not already in the mainstream elite. And if you are in the
mainstream elite in 2013, rest assured, this one does not apply to you either.
In fact, the virtue of the constitution is that as a lie, it has inspired
people to strive to demand it become true. And slowly by piecemeal, always
hard fought for, always opposed, the golden age of the past that never existed
is being constructed in the present.
~~~
icebraining
Or a descendant of Japanese people:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_American_internment>
~~~
AutoCorrect
that mar on our history should be a warning to everyone that wants the
government to provide (whether it be retirement, medical, food, whatever) -
the government giveth, and the government taketh away, as long as we are
unresisting.
~~~
JulianMorrison
You really think it would have helped to resist? In a war?
Also compare the fate of the native Americans who resisted.
------
chris_wot
How can it be legal to have Fourth Amendment Exclusion Zones in the United
States?
------
lifeisstillgood
Any organisation that creates a "Civil Liberties Impact" department, really
needs to think about its basic job function !
Then again, as a UK citizen, I thought the fourth amendment was not letting
soldiers billet in your house.
------
TravisDirks
Population is concentrated on the coasts. Has anyone worked out what fraction
of US Citizens have lost their 4th amendment rights?
~~~
TravisDirks
"Using data provided by the U.S. Census Bureau, the ACLU has determined that
nearly 2/3 of the entire US population (197.4 million people) live within 100
miles of the US land and coastal borders."
From:[http://www.aclu.org/national-security_technology-and-
liberty...](http://www.aclu.org/national-security_technology-and-liberty/are-
you-living-constitution-free-zone)
------
OGinparadise
In theory this makes sense: you cross the border...or live near the
border...blah blah...keep US secure...blah blah... In reality, this is the
latest attack and restrictions on our freedoms. Their tactic is brilliant,
they pass xx laws that are unconstitutional and overwhelm the courts. Courts
try to be reasonable and in many cases give half to one side and half to the
other, every year.
I wouldn't be surprised if you still have quite a few rights down the line but
only inside your home and a few decades after that only in the bathroom.
------
IheartApplesDix
What preschooler drew up this idea? Path of Rome, here we come!
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Absorbing commit changes in Mercurial 4.8 - indygreg2
https://gregoryszorc.com/blog/2018/11/05/absorbing-commit-changes-in-mercurial-4.8/
======
asqueella
I wanted to know if anything like this exists for git (apart from manually
doing commit --fixup/rebase -i --autosquash) -- and a quick search found this:
[https://github.com/tummychow/git-absorb](https://github.com/tummychow/git-
absorb) !
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: Take me back to my post when I comment - dorfsmay
When commenting on a comment in HN, it takes me back to the top of the comments, which means I now have to scroll all the way back to where I was. How difficult would it be to take me back to my comment or its parent?
======
brudgers
The friction may be intentional to reduce rapid fire back and forth that can
produce poor quality comments, or serial rebuttal in a sub thread, etc.
Or not.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: What is the best way to resolve storyboard (iOS) conflicts? - skyahead
When a team of programmers working on a storyboard (managed by git), it is rather painful to merge changes. I know people are saying that using multiple storyboards can mitigate this problem.<p>I wonder if there is a better way?
======
eonil
The best way for this is avoiding Storyboard.
DVCSs are designed for full error-tolerenceable text based source files. It
requires the files are fine to be broken (e.g. for compile). This is the
premise to merge data files without any issue.
Storyboard/IB data files are zero-tolerence. They always require full
integrity for their data files. As the internal data is described as a
interconnected graph, there's no effective way to manage Storyboard/IB data
files in broken state. Most data files are in this form, and cannot be used in
DVCSs.
Then, trying to use zero-tolerance data in a system which require full
tolerance doesn't make sense. At least for merging.
------
athesyn
I don't see any other option beside 1) building the UI in code again 2) break
it up into separate storyboards.
The lesson is never to use a storyboard unless your app is a simple collection
of screens with a navigation controller.
------
petervandijck
We're having the same problems, pointers welcome.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Multiple Cursors in 500 bytes of Vimscript - jstewartmobile
http://www.kevinli.co/posts/2017-01-19-multiple-cursors-in-500-bytes-of-vimscript/
======
jstewartmobile
Still not quite as good as MC in Sublime, but pretty close.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Google Cloud is 50% cheaper than AWS - yarapavan
https://thehftguy.wordpress.com/2016/11/18/google-cloud-is-50-cheaper-than-aws/
======
sirn
Slightly unrelated, but since there seems to be some Google Cloud people in
this thread: I see that Google Cloud account is linked to my Google Account.
What happen to my Google Cloud instances if my Google Account got suspended by
Google due to other reasons (e.g. Pixel stuff from the other day, or because
of YouTube, or etc.) and I did not bought support tier?
~~~
timdorr
On GCP, you create a separate Project entity that can have any number of
Google Accounts linked to it. In that way, the actions of your personal
account don't affect the GCP project (and vice versa).
If you're worried about access, you can establish a service account with Owner
level access. Or you can add other Google Accounts to the project. (Here are
the docs on that:
[https://cloud.google.com/iam/docs/overview](https://cloud.google.com/iam/docs/overview))
I personally have all my Google stuff separated into 3 accounts (work,
personal email, and personal Google-y things). My work account has access to
the projects on GCP, along with some coworkers. That puts up enough of a
firewall between various services so that if Google throws down the banhammer,
it's not totally game over for me.
~~~
philiphodgen
Logical self-preservation in action.
And it is a telling indictment of the corporate character displayed by Google:
\- Exploitable for minor personal convenience ("Use Gmail! Use Gcal! Simple
and free!")
\- Not to be trusted under any circumstances with important matters ("We can
evaporate your existence from the internet for all practical purposes and
there's not a damn thing you can do about it.")
Some day, it will become important for us to own our own lives again. And I
say this as someone who runs his business on GApps. I'm as guilty as everyone
else.
~~~
btian
Curious what you mean by "own our own lives again".
Are you planning to run your own email servers (or any other service that
Google provides)? Or just switch to another vendor?
~~~
kinkdr
My answer to this problem is less dramatic; I am just hedging my bets.
For search and maps, I use Google, for personal hardware, Apple, for cloud
servers, AWS, for email, Fastmail on my own domain, and so on.
It is slightly more inconvenient than having one Google account to rule
everything, but it helps me at leas feel a bit saner..
~~~
mark_l_watson
That is great advice. I have the same setup, except I use OVH instead of AWS
because the cost is much lower, but still meets my needs (AWS, GCP, and Azure
are all great services that I have used, no criticism intended).
------
jbyers
"The numbers given in this article do not account for any AWS reservation."
While I agree that Google's pricing model is superior, the author's position
on reserved instances accounts for ~40% of the cost difference.
In a drag race between instances AWS tends to lose. If you value the enormous
feature and service surface-area that AWS provides it's a different story.
Either way we win; both companies will engage in a brutal price and feature
war for many years to come.
~~~
vgt
I would like to hear what platform bits of AWS that you find lacking in Google
Cloud. Google's ecosystem of fully managed services is very rich broad and
compelling, and in many ways far ahead of competition. (work on Google Cloud
but don't get paid to post here)
~~~
Fiahil
> I would like to hear what platform bits of AWS that you find lacking in
> Google Cloud.
RDS instances with Postgresql.
~~~
vgt
This is the one that comes up. Hit me up offline. Also, you can always use any
number of partners that provide this functionality.
Let me know if there are any others.
~~~
Fiahil
From the top of my head, a managed Elasticsearch a-la-elastic-cloud would be
very interesting. Their offering is expensive and very frustrating if you
don't have a paid support contract. AWS has something similar, but lacking
features (kopf, kibana, marvel, etc)
~~~
notyourwork
AWS Elasticsearch has kibana built in when you spin up your ES instances.
------
lordnacho
I didn't see any mention of Google's preemptible instances.
I've used them, and they're much cheaper than ordinary instances. They happen
to fit my use case, which is a simple copybigfile-simulate-writeresults done
over hundreds of days of market data.
Preemption does happen, but it tends to happen very early on in a simulation.
Also you don't get billed if it's in the first 10 minutes. For some reason GCE
won't let you auto-restart that instance, but you can just write an API call
that accomplishes the same.
There's also the added benefit that your instance will die after 24 hours, so
you won't get billed for leaving something on by accident.
~~~
tener
If you create an instance group of preemptible instances it will automatically
try to fulfill your demand - no need to write a thing!
~~~
brianwawok
And it's amazing. Over 99% uptime for 1/4 the price.
------
xiaoma
Here's a thought: Things often go wrong.
Would you rather have your mission critical apps relying on Google's customer
service or on Amazon's customer service?
~~~
imperialdrive
We pay 10+k/mo for our AWS support, and it has never paid off, even with
multiple phantom errors and failures... the top level support supposedly being
paged out of bed for me doesn't have answers. Always had to simply restore
from backup without a good report to share with mgmt.
~~~
ignoramous
That's deeply concerning. Can you pls share your aws account ID with me? If
you're not comfortavle doing that, pls share email ID where I can contact you.
Thanks.
------
tzaman
I can confirm that first hand; We're just moving our whole stack from AWS to
GC and right now we're running everything in parallel with roughly the same
amount of resources. AWS monthly bill: ~$1000, GC monthly bill: ~$600
~~~
nodesocket
Seriously this is worse than premature optimization, I like to call it
developer frugalness optimization. A $600 savings is not even worth the
effort.
~~~
tzaman
Agreed - primary motivation weren't savings, but much smoother UX with
Kubernetes on Google. We're adopting container-based approach to development
(and DevOps), so we explored alternatives, and chose Google Cloud.
~~~
ignoramous
Thanks for sharing your experience. Why, acc to you, is Kubernetes on AWS a
non-starter? Is it too difficult to setup? Or maintain? Or simply isn't the
first class citizen, like it's on GCP?
Or does it just make sense to stick with GCP since K8s has Google's blessing?
Or...
~~~
tzaman
Two reasons really, the first is that AWS has become this bloated mess of
"stuff", making it increasingly harder to use, because so much time is needed
to either constantly look at it to see what's new/changed or vigilantly
document everything. GKE, based on my experience, uses more "convention over
configuration" approach, so the UI is much less cluttered, easier to
understand, and comes with good defaults out of the box. And yes, K8s is a
first class citizen on GKE and it overall fits nicely in the google compute
engine environment.
The only downside is that Google Cloud doesn't have a hosted DB offering for
PostgreSQL, like AWS RDS, so it took me a while to set up everything properly.
Finally, from a purely subjective point of view, Google's Material design is
easy on the eyes.
This is roughly what we ended up with for our stack:
[https://cl.ly/1z141g0e1w38](https://cl.ly/1z141g0e1w38) (The top three
instances are K8S, then two GlusterFS instances which hold persistent volumes
for pods and finally three PSQL instances that also run Redis Sentinels with a
quorum of 2 - Redis itself is on Kubernetes as a DaemonSet)
~~~
ignoramous
Thanks a lot for taking time to respond. I've a couple of clarifying
questions:
> Two reasons really, the first is that AWS has become this bloated mess of
> "stuff", making it increasingly harder to use
Are you referring to any specific offerings: CodeDeploy/Beanstalk/EC2? Or
generally the entirety of AWS catalog? I agree that the sheer amount of
configurations and the breath of offerings might appear bloated and there are
parts where AWS looks its age, not necessarily a bad thing, though.
> because so much time is needed to either constantly look at it to see what's
> new/changed or vigilantly document everything
I am not able to relate to this. AWS is pretty serious abt backwards
compatibility and making transitions smooth unless there's a serious security
risk.
Re: Console: This complaint comes up often on HN. Thanks for pointing it out.
Re: Convention over configuration: K8s seems to be a great piece of software
from what I keep reading abt it. I can understand why anyone would choose to
use it. I am left wondering why it isn't as easily usable on AWS
infrastructure... I guess I must try it out myself, someday.
~~~
tzaman
I'm not referring to any specific offering, but just the sheer amount of ways
to accomplish things on AWS - and the docs don't help, I urge you to compare
(or even time) the process of following the docs in setting up AWS versus GKE
clusters. You'll notice the process is much faster with GKE, especially
because the docs include at least some real-world examples, compared to AWS
where the documentation is almost completely abstract.
And as a "very" curious developer, I always get pulled into analysis
paralysis. Not so with GKE. There's one way to accomplish a particular thing,
the only choice is UI versus CLI - and since most of us have Google accounts
anyway, gettings started with GKE is maybe a couple of commands and you have a
cluster up and running.
Try googling how to set up Jenkins/WordPress on AWS/GKE. A VERY real world
examples and Google provides docs, AWS does not - I'm not interested in high-
level overviews, I want to solve a particular problem.
What AWS needs first and foremost is a competent UX team.
~~~
ranman
Is something like this useful for you? [https://aws.amazon.com/getting-
started/tutorials/](https://aws.amazon.com/getting-started/tutorials/)
~~~
tzaman
Nope, but it illustrates my points perfectly. A company like Amazon should
have hundreds of those, with real use cases that developers (or DevOps) care
about. For instance, I have a Rails/Node/Go/whatever app. How do I deploy it
using any of the available services? Which one is preferred? Why? What about
the connecting services, like Postgres+Redis? (I know there's an offering for
everything, I'd like to know how it all fits together, best practices, etc)
------
benjojo12
Now, If only _I_ could use it in the UK.
Seriously. Every time I sign up, I have no option to sign up as a individual,
only company.
Friends in other regions of the world can sign up as individual, but it
appears google ( in the UK/EU ? ) as decided for whatever reason ( I assume
VAT calculation ) they won't offer it.
I can sign up to and use AWS ( as much as I really don't really want to ) as
myself. Yet there are all of these really nice things coming out of GCP that I
can't use because I simply can't enable billing. (that being said, I do use
google app engine for my blog, and it's fantastic)
------
StreamBright
If any cloud project was a single dimension problem. For me it does not matter
how much cheaper I could run an instance in GCP simply because we rely on
services from AWS that do not exist in GCP yet. Another issue for me with
Google is how they handle account problems. I do not want to find out the hard
way that I should have done some extra safety measures just to keep our entire
production environment safe. With AWS I do not need to worry, their customer
first approach proved to be extremely useful over the years, and they were
very patient with us even when we did something that was against their policy.
My customer trust is not something that is up for sale and I have been
disappointed with Google's customer support several times, this is simple
cannot happen in a cloud infrastructure situation. I like GCP and Azure
because they make sure that I get a good deal on AWS.
------
plandis
This guy has some other really great articles. My favorite is: "GCE vs AWS in
2016: Why you should never use AWS" [1].
[1] [https://thehftguy.wordpress.com/2016/06/15/gce-vs-aws-
in-201...](https://thehftguy.wordpress.com/2016/06/15/gce-vs-aws-in-2016-why-
you-should-never-use-amazon/)
------
thevivekpandey
Does someone know _why_ Google Cloud can afford to be so much cheaper compared
to AWS? Are the costs to Amazon for AWS so much higher than the costs to
Google for Google Cloud? Why?
~~~
reitanqild
IIRC I think I have seen some people here argue it is because they have close
to no customer support.
From Amazon however I have even heard about them forgive bills where the
customer was really to blame.
All this is hearsay though and I don't think Amazon does this out of the
goodness of Jeffs heart _but_ as long as enough people think this is how it
works it might be part of why people will use AWS even if it is more
expensive.
~~~
vgt
Our support folks can comment here, but I would disagree with that point. Our
support org is massive, there are varying tiers levels of Support
SCE/CRE/SRE/SWE-level of support, all the way up to [0].
I'll also comment that Google's Eng/PM org is very engaged. It's not unusual
for an engineer in charge of a service to help resolve a customer an issue.
[0] [https://cloudplatform.googleblog.com/2016/10/introducing-
a-n...](https://cloudplatform.googleblog.com/2016/10/introducing-a-new-era-of-
customer-support-Google-Customer-Reliability-Engineering.html)
(work on Google Cloud but do not get paid to post here)
~~~
kuschku
> It's not unusual for an engineer in charge of a service to help resolve a
> customer an issue.
This is not related to Google Cloud, but to GSuite: Or, if you get an engineer
on the phone, through the support number, they just insult you, and hang up on
you, as has happened to me once (back when the free tier of GSuite was still a
thing).
~~~
vgt
That's unacceptable anywhere.
I know Google support spends gobs of time quantifying customer success and
happiness, gets measured and rewarded by these numbers. Nature of support
anywhere is that sadly you'll always have some folks with a bad experience,
all you can do is try to make it right by all.
------
jacques_chester
I've worked with both AWS and GCP (my day job is working on Cloud Foundry).
In every area that I've looked, GCP is so much better than AWS that it's
offensive, bordering on obscene.
It's faster, cheaper, more configurable. The documentation is _actually
comprehensible_. The APIs are consistent. There's a single console, rather
than a fruit salad of conceptually different consoles under a single domain.
The console is, in fact, navigable without invoking curses. Not even a small
one.
AWS has the massive advantage of inertia. If you're deeply woven into the
higher-level AWS services, I'd probably stay put.
But if you aren't, or you're just beginning, then holy moly you owe it to
yourself to look.
~~~
ranman
>It's faster, cheaper, more configurable. The documentation is actually
comprehensible.
The docs have more 404s than trumps twitter account... who payed/paid you to
write this?
~~~
vgt
>>It's faster, cheaper, more configurable. The documentation is actually
comprehensible.
>The docs have more 404s than trumps twitter account... who payed/paid you to
write this?
(ranman works at AWS..and talking to an AWS premier partner... the delicious
irony)
~~~
ignoramous
Jacques doesn't speak for all of Pivotal. Its of course his personal opinion
that GCP is way ahead of AWS. And Jacques, personally, is entitled to his
opinion. There might even be merits to his statement here but he hasn't backed
it up at all with data.
Pls do not pass off his statement here as an official stand by Pivotal. Unless
of course that's what Jacques here meant to do (I wouldn't know)...
~~~
jacques_chester
It is correct that unless I explicitly say otherwise, I do not officially
speak for Pivotal. It'd basically be a terrible idea to give me an official
mouthpiece, given how bombastic I am.
And, of course, my opinion of GCP is just, like, my opinion, man.
In my _personal_ projects I have stuff on AWS. In fact I'll be adding more
soon, since Pivotal Web Services is housed on AWS. And there's still a _lot_
that AWS can do that GCP can't. It's just that, for the tiny slice of the
world I've seen, I like GCP a _lot more_.
No matter which platform you prefer, everyone will benefit from the fierce
triangular tug-o-war between Amazon, Microsoft and Google.
Especially if they're on a relocatable platform like Cloud Foundry
(disclosure: Pivotal sells a version of this) or OpenShift.
~~~
ignoramous
I like people who are critical and honest with their assessment. I value your
opinion very highly, since you claim to have experience with the tools you are
assessing.
Thanks for clarifying statements and for the feedback.
I would appreciate immensely if you can elaborate your frustrations with AWS
apart from the ones you have mentioned already. You could either do it here or
I could email you, or if you have a comment trail on this topic on
reddit/hn/twitter, I'd appreciate the links. Thanks once again.
~~~
jacques_chester
Remember, I am frequently wrong and fond of bombast.
I feel that AWS has a strength and weakness in the fact that its longevity has
led to a massive feature set. For those who've grown in expertise alongside
it, AWS seems natural and obvious.
I have instead come to this super-featuresome platform and found myself
totally lost. If I was one of the people who'd consumed the new features
piecemeal over the space of a decade, it wouldn't seem so daunting. I guess
the same will happen to GCP.
But even so, I find it much easier to get around in GCP. The console is
obviously built as a unified experience. It still has a CRUDish flavour to it,
insofar as it requires you to have some of the underlying model in your head
to use efficiently.
But it needs _less_ and it tends to be less of a hunt for the foo that uses
the bar that depends on the baz based on the quux which is ten bloody screens
away under an ill-chosen name.
Oh and AWS console seems to have a vendetta against allowing me to open up a
bunch of tabs easily. I _hate_ that. I usually want to look at two things side
by side because weirdly, I find it hard to retain randomly-generated strings
in my short term memory.
As for performance, GCP brings up VMs extremely quickly, the networking is
really fast and the prices are nicer.
Truthfully, I've touched maybe 5% of what AWS or GCP offer. But the 5% I've
seen is compelling. I think Google are going to finally break their total
reliance on advertising revenue.
~~~
ignoramous
Makes sense. Thanks a lot.
Rest assured AWS isn't turning a blind-eye to its shortcomings. Exciting times
ahead for everyone involved.
------
nucleardog
In any comparison on "cheapest way to run a linux box somewhere" I would
expect AWS to lose. AWS is a platform, not a server rental service. You start
to see value when you build to the platform.
~~~
vgt
I would like to hear what platform bits of AWS that you find lacking in Google
Cloud. Google's ecosystem of fully managed services is very rich broad and
compelling, and in many ways far ahead of competition.
(work on Google Cloud but don't get paid to post here)
~~~
luhn
For me the two big things missing from Google Cloud are a PostgreSQL service
and a Redis service. I'd also need an alternative to CodeDeploy, but I think I
could something that wouldn't be too terrible to self-host.
> in many ways far ahead of competition
Yep. In my experience, when Google Cloud does something, they do it right.
~~~
vgt
Thanks for your feedback!
------
didibus
I hate it when the evangelist swarm the hackernews comments.
On another note, I'm not surprised Google cloud is cheaper as its trailing
behind and offer no other advantage but price to catch up. GCE, Azure and AWS
all pretty much match each other technically, so I suspect the one with least
customers to always offer the better value. So if GCE were to ever become
number 1, I'd suspect it's price to rise and others prices to lower.
------
paulddraper
"The numbers given in this article do not account for any AWS reservation"
Well that's a huge caveat. Anyone intending to be a serious user of AWS will
use reservations. The discount is large, well over 50% off IIRC. And then
there's the spot instances/spot fleets with even steeper discounts.
For better or worse, AWS's pricing is more complicated then its competitors. A
serious comparison would have to include those details.
~~~
fapjacks
Actually, because you've got to pay in advance a certain amount to get the
reserved price, we calculated at my last job that buying on-demand instances
was actually cheaper than paying the reserved instance pricing listed, because
of the rate at which AWS drops the price regularly. Meaning, if you compare
the reserved price with the amount you would pay for on-demand instances and
subtract the amount you save when Amazon drops the price (which they do pretty
regularly, and have in the past), the on-demand price actually ends up being
cheaper in the long run.
~~~
paulddraper
I think you meant "on-demand", not "spot". Spot is hands down cheaper.
Reserved saves you 30-75% depending on instance type and duration. Spot
instances save 85-90%.
As for on-demand, AFAIK the only time a discount came close to 30%/year was in
2014 when Google Cloud slashed their prices. So...yeah, it might be possible,
but I doubt it.
~~~
fapjacks
Hah, I don't know how you were able to see my first edit. It was up for less
than ten seconds and I didn't have your comment for some time after I edited
it!
~~~
paulddraper
Lucky
------
skywhopper
This article is interesting and the author has some good points about the lack
of small non-burstable instances in AWS. There are plenty of things to gripe
about.
But the headline assertion is ultimately unsupported except in terms of simple
comparison graphs of paper numbers about the raw CPU and memory numbers. Are
the CPU units comparable? Is the networking what it's cracked up to be? How
easy is it to autoscale? Is the capacity you need available when you need it?
How long do instances take to start? What are the dynamic storage options? How
does disk IO performance compare?
I'd be really interested to read an article that attempted to break these down
and do a real comparison. But this article doesn't even attempt a real world
comparison.
~~~
user5994461
> Are the CPU units comparable? Is the networking what it's cracked up to be?
> How easy is it to autoscale? Is the capacity you need available when you
> need it? How long do instances take to start? What are the dynamic storage
> options? How does disk IO performance compare?
In order.
Yes. Google networking is superior (cheaper & faster). Variable, depends on
your application/workload, not just the cloud. Yes. < 30 seconds on Google,
1-3 minutes on AWS. lcoal SSD, remote SSD, or remote HDD on Google VS a mess
of many complex & expensive disks on AWS (it would take more than a blog post
to explain their disk offerings). Google disks are 3-10 times IOPS and/or
bandwidth, lower latency.
This article is just on basic pricing. I plan more articles for the future.
Starting with one on disk benchmark and one on network benchmark.
------
iagooar
Does anyone know if there are any plans to support Postgres by the Cloud SQL?
Because currently it's the major deal breaker to me. I have a SaaS business
that works on Postgres and we don't plan to replace it with any major SQL
alternative.
~~~
htn
There's some indications that Google would support Postgres as part of the
CLoudSQL in the future. But there are already multiple DB-as-a-Service
offerings that provide PostgreSQL in Google Cloud. My company, Aiven
([https://aiven.io](https://aiven.io)) is one of the providers and I believe
Compose, DatabaseLabs and ElephantSQL also provide managed PG in Google Cloud.
~~~
iagooar
Thanks for the recommendation, we will give it a look for sure.
------
0xmohit
Lots of discussion here too: Which cloud provider to use in 2016? AWS or GCE?
[0]
[0]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11515505](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11515505)
------
estefan
I want to like Google Cloud, but it just seriously lags AWS.
Amazon got everything _so_ right with an ID and secret. GC's oauth is just
cumbersome, and the CLI tools are nowhere near as user friendly as aws-cli.
Two other recent examples - the lack of granularity and inflexibility of GC's
IAM perms (you need to faff around with roles which even as an Owner you can't
create - they need to be done at the org level, WTF?), and GC support is miles
behind.
I opened a support ticket for a critical issue recently, and the initial
response I received when someone looked at it fell into the repeating-back-to-
me-what-I'd-told-them-in-the-ticket category. Then they suggested I "check the
permissions are right", which as I told them "I don't know what's wrong or
what needs checking, that's why I opened the ticket". It's just lucky the
issue didn't affect our prod account or we'd have been in real trouble since
they're still investigating even though we're probably one of their top-tier
customers.
AWS support has always been second to none for me. GC support has always for
me been second to, well, Amazon...
~~~
ranman
I actually like the gcloud CLI -- I wish its output was more tunable (CSV,
Table, JSON)... I also think it's weird they use a ~/.boto config.
~~~
jvolkman
Have you tried '\--format'?
~~~
ranman
that was easier than I expected.
------
pascalxus
I recently visited the google cloud pricing page and had a hard time making
any sense of it all. The pricing isn't at all clear. DigitalOcean on the other
hand, you take one glance at their pricing page and know exactly what your
getting. Google can learning something from that.
~~~
spangry
Thank god I'm not the only one. I keep hearing about how opaque AWS pricing is
compared to GCP, yet I personally cannot make any sense of google's pricing.
It's difficult to explain, but I struggle ti figure out how much I'll be
paying over, say, a month for a GCE instance. It seems like there are too many
variables to keep in my head.
But I'm just a tinkerer/hobbyist. So maybe the reason is because I don't have
a clear idea of what my monthly utilisation is going to look like, or whether
it's going to be consistent. I imagine this would be much clearer for those
running businesses. I dunno...
~~~
manigandham
GCP pricing is far simpler than AWS - just visit any of the product pages to
see the unit costs.
And they have a calculator:
[https://cloud.google.com/products/calculator/](https://cloud.google.com/products/calculator/)
If you're talking about Compute Engine utilization for billing discounts, they
just mean how long you have it running continuously over the course of a
month.
------
ed_blackburn
How much do google use their own cloud internally? I'm curious and would
better appreciate Google Cloud if I could see it being dogfooded with
something substantial.
~~~
gkop
My understanding is GKE on GCP is kinda sorta a rewrite of the Borg system
Google has used internally for years. Internal services at Google are
encouraged to use GKE, but there's little incentive to migrate from the Borg
infrastructure that has a long track record for reliability. So currently only
a marginal amount of Google services use GKE, but as old services are retired
and new ones developed, the share of services on GKE should grow steadily over
time.
------
ggregoire
A bit off-topic, but
\- AWS has a 12 months free tier [1]
\- Google Cloud has a 2 months free trial [2]
That will make a huge difference when I'll have to choose.
[1] [https://aws.amazon.com/free](https://aws.amazon.com/free)
[2] [https://cloud.google.com/free-trial](https://cloud.google.com/free-trial)
~~~
vgt
Great point. I think it's a matter of different philosophies, and both are
great for customers!
\- AWS gives you specific usage allotments per-month for specific services.
\- Google gives you $300 cash for 2 months to use however you please. just
don't mine bitcoins or generate email spam :)
\- Some folks did the math on AWS free tier to total $247.20 [0]. That is, if
you 100% utilize all the allotments.
\- Google BigQuery, Firebase, and AppEngine also have perpetual free tiers.
[0] [http://searchcloudcomputing.techtarget.com/tip/How-much-
are-...](http://searchcloudcomputing.techtarget.com/tip/How-much-are-free-
cloud-computing-services-worth)
(work on Google Cloud)
~~~
ggregoire
Thank you for the clarification. :)
------
joaoqalves
Comparing only instance prices is not fair, imho. Amazon charges that because
all of the services/ecosystem they have. Google Cloud is stepping up their
game though, leading to cheaper prices in AWS.
~~~
vgt
Amazon has a very broad offering of great fully managed services, but Google's
no slouch. In fact, many of Google's offerings can be very compelling -
BigQuery, Bigtable, CloudML, PubSub, GKE to name a few.
Just in the "only instances" space you mention Google has a different
strategy. A couple things to mention:
\- Google doesn't have a broad spectrum of instance types. No storage-
optimized or networking optimized. Instead, any instance can just get great
storage attached to it, and any instance gets best-in-class networking.
\- Google's Preemptible VMs are like Spot instances but fixed 75-80% off.
Again, with less fragmentation against instance types + fixed cost, much
easier to rely on Preemptible VMs imo.
\- Google's Load Balancer is global, scalable, anycast IP driven, and backed
by Google Network. If your packets originate in, say, New Zealand, they'll be
talking to a "GCLB instance in our pop in Sydney", which will carry packets on
Google's backbone to the VMs.
\- Custom VM sizes - you can set your own VM/RAM combination for instances.
\- Live Migration. Google manages instance health and maintenance for you,
without forcing restarts.
(Work at Google but not on GCE.. and I don't get paid to post here)
~~~
novembermike
I'm not sure I'd agree that Google has a broad spectrum of instance types. You
can boost up individual components, but for example if I wanted an EC2
instance with as much local SSD space as I can get I could have 6.4 terabytes,
while on GCE I could have 3 TB. If I want memory, Google's willing to give me
200GB, Amazon offers 10x as much.
My impression is that Google has a first class general purpose instance but
you don't really get the breadth of options that EC2 will give you.
~~~
vgt
You bring up a good point. Amazon does give you a better "vertical scaling"
story. I'll still challenge you on the "breadth" when it comes to EC2 - the
philosophy is just very different. Why do you need a "IO optimized instance"
if you want just fast disk - that notion just seems very foreign and
arbitrarily-constrained on Google Cloud.
You bring up Local SSD. Google's Local SSD is just badass by comparison:
\- 680,000 Read and 360,000 Write IOPS included in the cost [0]
\- $0.218 per GB per month. Instance cost is separate.
\- Again, you can attach these to any instance type (hence the point on
fragmentation of instances on EC2)
\- AWS goes up to 365,000 Read and 315,000 "First Write" IOPS. Only if you buy
an i2.8xlarge [2]
\- An i2.8xlarge is $6.82 per hour.
You do the math :)
And someone else did more comparisons here [1]
[0]
[https://cloud.google.com/compute/docs/disks/performance](https://cloud.google.com/compute/docs/disks/performance)
[1] [https://medium.com/google-cloud/new-google-cloud-ssds-
have-a...](https://medium.com/google-cloud/new-google-cloud-ssds-have-amazing-
price-to-performance-2a58e7d9b433#.r131j8yfe)
[2]
[http://docs.aws.amazon.com/AWSEC2/latest/UserGuide/i2-instan...](http://docs.aws.amazon.com/AWSEC2/latest/UserGuide/i2-instances.html#i2-instances-
diskperf)
~~~
inframouse
The real problem I have is the low network performance. Yes, yes, before
everyone jumps all over me and points to Jupiter etc.. I understand the
problems in Pb/s bisection bandwidth for the large datacenters. That doesn't
change the fact that I don't need an entire datacenter worth of stuff.. but I
do need an Amdahl-balanced cluster. So big machines with wimpy (20Gb non-RDMA)
networks prevent me doing my HPCish workloads on GCE.
Followed by waiting on GPUs and other user accessible accelerators of course.
~~~
vgt
hit me up, i'll connect you with some folks
------
malloryerik
Does anyone know how much of Google Cloud works inside of China? So, would my
webapp be accessible from the PRC? And what about services that come from a
Google API such as voice-to-text or translation, managed database and so on?
~~~
codesnik
ah, I almost forgot! My gce instances weren't accessible from Hainan. They
aren't accessible from Crymea, also.
------
codesnik
I've used GCE for production servers in the past and was really pleased with
almost every aspect. I have really little "serious" experience with AWS, and
I'd say it's much more.. um, arcane?
I'm genuinly curious, what kind of project/situation would be to actually
prefer AWS to GCE (aside from "we're already on AWS" or "I know AWS and don't
know GCE")?
------
daemonk
Is there a spot instance-like mechanism with google cloud? I regularly request
high memory spot instances (r3.8xlarge) on AWS for 1-2 days processes (genomic
analysis). With spot-pricing it can be pretty cheap.
~~~
dgacmu
Yes. Google calls them "preemptible instances". Unlike the AWS spot instances,
they're fixed price at a discount.
~~~
phonon
Preemptible Instances only can be used for a max of 24 hours, so would not fit
the above usage pattern...though I don't know if AWS spot instances are really
meant to be used for that long either. Of course both allow you to use the
regular non-preemptible on-demand pricing.
[https://cloud.google.com/compute/docs/instances/preemptible](https://cloud.google.com/compute/docs/instances/preemptible)
------
jakozaur
Good article though I would disagree about AWS Reserved Instances. Though they
are way more complicated, they can give 40%+ discount and in many use cases
you can run quite a lot of them.
~~~
0xmohit
Isn't it true that those require a 1-yr or 3-yr commitment? You can't move a
reserved instance to another region. IIRC, its tied both to a region and AZ.
OTOH, spot instances can be cheaper but then you should be prepared for those
to vanish anytime.
~~~
needcaffeine
As of September 2016, you can buy a convertible reservation that allows you to
move a reserved instance to a different AZ within a region. Your greater point
still stands but I just wanted to correct one piece of it.
Source: [https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/aws/ec2-reserved-instance-
updat...](https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/aws/ec2-reserved-instance-update-
convertible-ris-and-regional-benefit/)
~~~
0xmohit
Thanks for the update. The change appears to be relatively recent, and I'm not
surprised being unaware :)
------
nhumrich
Once GC has a RDS like service for postgres, I will switch right away.
------
cdevs
In response to Reserve pricing is bs..
We are moving to aws before the end of the year and it will be a 50% price cut
from the dedicated providers we have been using. Our dedicated servers are
just about out of space and their bs cloud environment is about 350$ for what
you get for 70-80$ on linode. When we need 10-50 processing servers quickly
cloned up we go to linode do our work and try to sling the data back ...it's
all too annoying now. We're moving to aws, reserving some instances for our
client front ends and and booting up what we have to when we need it for
mapreduce jobs. For us reserve pricing isn't so bs.
~~~
gtaylor
It gets a lot more challenging once you outgrow your initial reservations. Or
maybe you find that you reserved the wrong sizes. As you add more
reservations, it will become something that you are dealing with constantly.
It's terrible.
~~~
cthalupa
>Or maybe you find that you reserved the wrong sizes
You can resize RIs within the same family (ie 1 m4.xlarge to 2 m4.large)
[http://docs.aws.amazon.com/AWSEC2/latest/UserGuide/ri-
modify...](http://docs.aws.amazon.com/AWSEC2/latest/UserGuide/ri-
modifying.html)
~~~
gtaylor
Yes, you can. But doing this is not "free", in that you are spending time
doing this (potentially often) instead of an infinite number of other more
productive things.
This alone isn't going to kill your productivity, but it's one of many of the
annoyances of managing a large fleet using RIs. It's a cumulative burden,
between figuring out reservations per-region, consider your baseline vs
spot/on-demand levels, potentially put some other stuff you don't need on the
RI market, and audit how many RIs in your inventory are _actually_ in use.
This is an annoyance when you have a small fleet, but it quickly becomes an
expensive nightmare when you start talking 100+ VMs. You start having to pay
for expensive external tools to manage your expenses because this stuff sucks
so much. Or write a ton of your own tooling (which is not free at all). Or
just have someone who does this manually all the time (also really sucks).
------
avtar
Does anyone know if either Google or Amazon provide credits for non-profits
like Microsoft does [1] for Azure? I haven't been able to find any details but
also not sure if it's something they do offline on a case by case basis.
[1] [https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/philanthropies/product-
donat...](https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/philanthropies/product-
donations/products/azure)
~~~
13498RtgbDwl
It looks like AWS has a credit program for non-profits[0].
GCP has one for education[1], and a program to use GCP to protect
journalists[2], but I'm not seeing anything for non-profits. You may be able
to get credits by asking them, however.
\--
[0] [https://aws.amazon.com/government-
education/nonprofits/](https://aws.amazon.com/government-
education/nonprofits/)
[1] [https://cloudplatform.googleblog.com/2016/06/new-Google-
Clou...](https://cloudplatform.googleblog.com/2016/06/new-Google-Cloud-
Platform-Education-Grants-offer-free-credits-to-students.html)
[2]
[https://projectshield.withgoogle.com/public/](https://projectshield.withgoogle.com/public/)
~~~
avtar
Thanks! Not sure how I missed that Amazon page. I'll get in touch with them
since having access to Postgres via RDS is very appealing.
------
desireco42
While most will still use AWS, it is great that there are alternatives and
competition. A lot of good points raised here about Amazon as ecosystem.
------
tscanausa
The author of this article mentioned running a database server on raid 10
local ssds. I would whole heatedly recommend against this. There is no
replication on locally ssd ( at all ). If there is a massive hardware failure
there are still situations were all the the data on the local ssds can be
lost.
( Disclosure: I would for Google Cloud Platform Support and have seen this
happen on rare occasions.)
------
jread
GCE is a great platform with many competitive advantages including networking,
flexible configurations and sustained use discounting. However, I'd argue that
using different data points and comparison criteria the opposite hypothesis
could be made in favor of EC2 - e.g. burst instance/storage, spot and reserve
pricing, local SSD and magnetic storage, and others.
~~~
vgt
I agree, you can go into higher granularity a-la-carte on both fronts.. but I
don't think "spot pricing" is that, and neither are local SSD + magnetic
storage (take a look at my local SSD post in this thread).
------
BonoboIO
I would use Google Cloud Storage or S3 Storage but their Traffic charges are
HUGE.
500 GB Storage (Google Cloud Storage Nearline) Storage Fee= $0.01 x 500 = 5
Dollar Retrieval $0.01 x 500 = 5 Dollar Bandwith Charges $0.12 x 500 = 60
DOLLAR
I mean SIXTY DOLLAR just for downloading my backups, they are crazy. Both
companys.
Would use rClone for my backups but OVH OpenStack is kind of buggy and could
not get it to work.
~~~
user5994461
The traffic is free if it's coming from an instance in the same region.
This is really intended for business. Definitely not a good fit for a personal
backup solution.
~~~
BonoboIO
Well i would use it as server backup but in this moment i got rclone woth OVH
running :D
[https://www.ovh.com/us/cloud/storage/object-
storage.xml](https://www.ovh.com/us/cloud/storage/object-storage.xml)
10 times cheaper than GC oder AWS
------
nikon
How could I apply for startup credits if I am bootstrapping?
"To Apply, contact your VC, Accelerator, or Incubator and ask about GCP for
Startups application details." [0]
[0]
[https://cloud.google.com/developers/startups/](https://cloud.google.com/developers/startups/)
------
rmykhajliw
GAE has serious problems: 1\. security, everything accessible for everyone 2\.
billing, it stoped accepting my card an your ago without any notice, hover the
same corporate card works for all other services 3\. support it's 100% per
cent useless. They cannot even fix anything, only claiming they have the same
issue for the last 3 years (that's from my real conversation).
That's why I highly not recommend to have nay relationships with Google Cloud.
It's unpredictable, you just cannot build your business around it. Now it
exists, in 5 minutes they may decided to close the service, change the billing
to unbillable, whatever. And the most scary, NONE, just NONE helps you. It
will be your issue.
------
meow_mix
This is good news for GCS but they will need to compete on more than price if
they want to gain market share.
Saving 500$ / month is minuscule compared to the time it will cost engineers
to migrate from AWS to GCS and get used to the new service.
~~~
movedx
Look at Terraform. With the right infrastructure tooling, it's not hard to
move at all.
Look at Ansible (or Puppet, Chef, Salt, etc.) With the right configuration
management tooling, it's much, much easier to migrate services.
------
coredog64
Is there another source for the 220Mbit/s limit for m4 class instances? I was
under the impression that you could get enhanced networking with those, and
double the speed when paired with placement groups.
~~~
user5994461
The 220Mbits/s is for the m4.large instance, not all the m4 family. The bigger
instances get more.
It is with HVM and enhanced networking. You can "wget
[http://ipv4.download.thinkbroadband.com/100MB.zip"](http://ipv4.download.thinkbroadband.com/100MB.zip")
and see what speed you get.
------
sebringj
This is why Werner Vogels sweats so much.
------
joe563323
Both AWS and Google Cloud does not support Ipv6. Suprise Surprise
------
homosaphien
I use both clouds extensively while google cloud is cheaper in most cases. But
DynamoDb in AWS is still cheaper than Cloud datastore or big table
------
novaleaf
sorry, but parts of this article are a bit.... dumb.
for example, "minimum production instance", it's comparing a 2cpu aws instance
vs a 1cpu gce. no wonder its "50% cheaper".
I use GCE over AWS, and run aprox 50 vm's. GCE _is_ cheaper, but not nearly as
much as the article claims. the savings is for hardware. data egress cost is
basically the same.
------
snissn
i recently moved a database off of RDS onto a "bare metal" VPS and my queries
are > 10x faster
------
ranman
The author references this post:
[https://plus.google.com/+RipRowan/posts/eVeouesvaVX](https://plus.google.com/+RipRowan/posts/eVeouesvaVX)
But quite obviously only read the headline.
------
Arbinv
Personally I just turn things off when they are not being used and that alone
saves me 60% off my AWS bill. Obviously, it only works for non-prod instances
but that is the bulk of what we use. see www.parkmycloud.com
------
ojr
last time I explored my options, setting environment variables (ENV) were hard
to secure in Google Cloud, I had to push a config.json file that sits on the
server? Whats the point of a cheaper price if I can't even figure out how to
secure the app. There might be cost gains in larger apps but for the small app
I am working on, I'm a big believer of using tools that make you productive
and iterate over parts that makes sense. You shouldn't choose a technology
like Go lang because its cheaper to run than Node.js if you don't know how to
Go
------
ranman
I work at AWS and I have questions for the author about this post:
TL;DR -- I urge all readers to take this post with a grain/boulder of salt:
The author is anonymous, prone to hyperbole and error, and makes multiple
unverified claims. I'm sure he's a nice guy/girl and if we met in real life
I'd be happy to converse over a beer -- but I find the language and
misinformation in the post overly polemic and disingenuous. If this stuff
interests you guys tune into the reinvent livestream next week:
[https://reinvent.awsevents.com/live-
streaming/](https://reinvent.awsevents.com/live-streaming/)
All numbers are from EU-WEST-1 (Does anyone know why GCE doesn't have a eu-
west-1a? only b,c,d? I'd be curious to know the story there... not trolling --
just curious.)
Graph 2: c4.large has 2 CPUs... n1-standard-1 has 1... comparison on price is
strange? Your point below about optimizing for manageability doesn't really
make sense to me as manageability would stem from config/deploy/etc. -- not
from instance type? Perhaps your language isn't clear. You're anonymous but
I'm guessing english is a second language for you (judging from sentences in
post) so it's possible we're missing your point there. Could you clarify
please?
>"an ancient virtualization technology" source? details? KVM came out in 2007.
Xen came out in 2003. I don't consider either of those dates particularly
ancient but whatever it's your post, use the language you want.
Graph 3: A c4.4xlarge has 16 CPUs, and 30 gigs of RAM. An n1-highcpu-4 has 4
CPUs and <4 gigs of RAM. Comparing the two on price is disingenuous. Your
claims that these are the "production instances" don't make sense to me.
>Network Heavy: So this is a test between two t2.micros in different AZs:
[https://s3.amazonaws.com/ranman-
code/2016-11-20+00.58.23.gif](https://s3.amazonaws.com/ranman-
code/2016-11-20+00.58.23.gif)
It shows 1gbps... I ran it literally a minute ago...
So that's 1gbit... Do you mean inbound from public internet or outbound to
public internet? I created an n1-highcpu-4 and had it talk to a c4.xlarge at
1gpbs in (both in eu-west) so your claim that you need a c4.4xlarge for 1gbps
seems dubious.
Test Complete. Summary Results: [ ID] Interval Transfer Bandwidth Retr [ 4]
0.00-60.00 sec 7.40 GBytes 1.06 Gbits/sec 1297597 sender [ 4] 0.00-60.00 sec
7.40 GBytes 1.06 Gbits/sec receiver
It actually seems like Google's network was the limiting factor there because
when I ran a similar test on a 10gpbs instance I couldn't get faster than
1gpbs. Which is fine because that's what's advertised -- just pointing out
that the need for a c4.4xlarge is wrong. On a c4.large I got 900mbps.
>C4/m4/r3 have a hard cap at 220 mbits
This one is just false. What am I missing here? Where did you get this info?
From eu-west-1 to us-east-1 I get faster than that using public routes and
t2.micros. Internally across availability zones I get __much __faster than
that.
Local SSD #s: Use PIOPS volumes, tunable size, lower cost, can attach to any
instance type. Also consider the numerous other instance types that offer
ephemeral SSDs.
>It is quite flexible. For instance, we could recreate any instance from AWS
on Google Cloud. I don't think you mean _any_ instance... but ok sure!
>Amazon does everything wrong, and Google does everything right, A message by
an employee from Amazon than Google, not directly relevant but still a good
read.
^ I don't think you read the above post when listing it as a reference. The
title is ironic. Steve Yegge quit Google. Famously... on stage... He also goes
on to say that Google can't do platforms. I'm sure that's changed in the past
few years though.
In the end I'm super excited about both AWS and GCP they both have awesome
products. I encourage people to continue researching and writing posts around
these topics. It's hard to not take some of the criticisms personally when
you're passionate and invested in your work (at least it is for me). I've got
a google employee DM-ing on twitter calling me "petulant child" among other
things. We don't need that. It's not helpful for our companies and it's not
helpful for our customers.
I'll encourage everyone to tune in to the reinvent livestream on the 29th,
30th, 1st: [https://reinvent.awsevents.com/live-
streaming/](https://reinvent.awsevents.com/live-streaming/)
~~~
logmeout
Until bandwidth pricing is fixed rather than nickel and dimeing us to death; a
lot of us will choose fixed pricing alternatives to AWS, GCP and Rackspace.
------
locusm
Is there a roadmap for GCP - wondering if they are coming to Australia?
~~~
dmourati
2017:
[https://cloudplatform.googleblog.com/2016/09/Google-Cloud-
Pl...](https://cloudplatform.googleblog.com/2016/09/Google-Cloud-Platform-
sets-a-course-for-new-horizons.html)
------
mixmastamyk
I find AWS annoying in that the east coast is always cheaper and the price
reductions linked mention more reductions on that side.
Who of the cloud companies is treating California as a first class citizen?
~~~
hrez
Oregon region is on par with east coast.
------
aryehof
My problem with Google Cloud is I find their pricing too opaque. Will I find
myself with a huge bill overnight is my worry. Is there some way to get
started with a cap on my monthly bill?
------
logmeout
Bandwidth pricing, bandwidth pricing, bandwidth pricing for all the big cloud
providers that charge by the bit rather than a fixed price; all of them are
too expensive.
------
StreamBright
The only feature that any company can copy from a competitor without any
effort is price. It is well known in product circles that you can't compete
with price only, you need to put in other features that make your product
attractive compare to the competitors. I am still waiting for something
extraordinary from GCP that would make me consider them over AWS or Azure.
Price - for me - is simply not enough.
------
epicureanideal
The other 50% is subsidized by the NSA in exchange for direct access to your
servers.
------
disposablezero
This PR propaganda is making the rounds. Most of the real use-cases I've seen
point to self-hosting on AWS is cheaper than using GCE and friends.
Pick whichever service has the cheapest TCO, not what some paid blogger says.
------
kristopolous
Azure is even cheaper
~~~
Ducki
Concerning the Virtual Machine pricings on the discussed platforms, I'd like
to mention that – on very small machines – running Windows Server is
significantly more expensive on Google Loud than on AWS or Azure, because
Google charges you the license fee directly whereas Azure or AWS seem to have
a mixed calculation.
Having the smallest Windows VM on AWS is like 6-7$/month, whereas on GCE
you're at at least 14.60$ higher due to the license.
------
baybal2
well, both still loose to budget app hostings if you count only cost
------
usaphp
I wonder how do they compare to digitalocean?
~~~
jlgaddis
That's not a good comparison to make.
------
mrwnmonm
what makes me choose AWS, is i can survive a year using it without paying too
much money, while in GC you got 300$ to spend in 3 months, which would get you
more powerful machine for this period but you should start paying after it so
if you really don't have money to start with, you have to choose AWS
~~~
Buge
I don't understand. Why not just use a normal amount for the first 60 days.
~~~
mrwnmonm
doesn't matter, it still just 60 days
~~~
Buge
Just 60 days for what? You get full functionality before and after. And you
pay less than AWS before and after.
~~~
mrwnmonm
60 days without paying, for free. while on AWS
[https://aws.amazon.com/free/](https://aws.amazon.com/free/) you could not
paying for a year if your usage is low
~~~
frag
what AWS is giving for 1 year is really really minimal for a PoC or testing
stuff. A small website would already get into trouble
------
hankmort
I test and use all 3 main public cloud providers. I keep Azure out in this
conversation for now:
A quick comparison of GCP & AWS :
The services & flexibility of options offered by GCP is not even in par with
AWS. Yes I may be able to spin up a couple of VMs but when it comes to
enterprise GCP can't be an option. It is like buying the new macbook pro and
can't add more than 16gb memory! A designer for sure needs more ram regardless
even if Macbook pro is offered for free.
\- There are about 50+ 3rd party offerings in Google Cloudlauncher compare to
thousands in AWS Marketplace! \- Choice of server/OS! maximum 8vCPU-7.2Mem in
GCP compare to 192 vCPU and 2TB memory in AWS -NoSQL Big table ( max 30 nodes)
- compare to ( virtually unlimited DynamoDB) -SQL (only MySQL in GCP ) compare
to ( Almost all with exception of DB2 in AWS). \- and so forth - Just having
Lambda, F5 support is damn good reason to go for AWS regardless of how much it
costs. Those are the basic needs of SMB that google can't even offer. \- 60
day trial and 300 dollar limit! compare to 1 year
The whole point of moving to the cloud is to have no limits and be able to
have access to resources whenever you want. Google offering is very limited
for now. This is just a lame marketing move by google and I hope they first
fix their offerings and then compare. I can go to godaddy and say I'm cheaper
maybe! Just check the list of services offered by both and see which one
should be considered for a serious customer.
We are all professional and judge products by testing them, open an account in
both and judge by yourself. When I started using GCP it sounded refined for
basic services but when it comes to Bigdata, monitoring I did not find the
console very integrated nor usable.
~~~
thesandlord
I work for Google Cloud. I think a blanket statement claiming the GCP is 50%
cheaper that AWS is a bad for all the reasons you stated, there is a lot more
than just VM pricing you have to take into account! We are definetly working
on a lot of the things you brought up, I hope this time in 2017 your
experience will be very different.
Want to clarify a few things though:
> \- Choice of server/OS! maximum 8vCPU-7.2Mem in GCP compare to 192 vCPU and
> 2TB memory in AWS
The biggest instance on GCP currently is 32vCPU-120GB. Also, with custom
machine types you can tune your machine and pick exactly how many cores /
memory you need; you are not stuck with predefined instance types.
Curious what OSs AWS supports that GCP does not?
AWS definitely has a better vertical scaling story though.
> \- NoSQL Big table ( max 30 nodes) - compare to ( virtually unlimited
> DynamoDB)
BigTable and DynamoDB are not really comparable. BigTable is much lower level.
The apples to apples comparison is DynamoDB and Datastore, and Datastore is
also unlimited.
> \- 60 day trial and 300 dollar limit! compare to 1 year
I'd also like to see a longer trial for GCP, but the AWS trial gives you 1
year access to basic usage. With GCP, you can spend the $300 any way you like.
Personally I'm not sure which model is better or worse, though I lean towards
the AWS model.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
How glow.mozilla.org gets its data - etaty
http://blog.mozilla.com/data/2011/03/22/how-glow-mozilla-org-gets-its-data/
http://glow.mozilla.org/
======
coderdude
An interesting snippet from the Python backend:
# We're not supposed to show downloads for these countries (607127#c10):
# Cuba, Iran, Syria, N. Korea, Myanmar, Sudan. Go figure.
REDACTED = ('CU', 'IR', 'SY', 'KP', 'MM', 'SD')
From <https://github.com/jbalogh/glow/blob/master/glow.py>
~~~
bbatsell
Access to that particular bug ID is blocked:
<https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=607127>
------
IgorPartola
Anyone have any idea of what SQLstream actually does/how it works? Looking at
<http://www.sqlstream.com/Products/products.htm> all I see is marketing
material aimed at execs.
~~~
brown9-2
Try <http://www.sqlstream.com/Products/productsTechSQLXMPLS.htm> or
<http://www.sqlstream.com/Products/productstechnology.htm>
------
cfinke
It's a beautiful visualization. While browsing through the source code, I
noticed that there are a few numeric keyboard shortcuts. "9" is especially
handy!
------
yoda_sl
It will be interesting to write a second kind of web app that show analytics
break down in different manner: continent, timezone, and even cooler will be
to see the correlation with the number of tweets about FF4 split on the same
geolocation / timezeone when the data is available. I wonder too if the JSON
data available will provide break down by OS platform.
~~~
dlsspy
Some of what you're asking for you get by clicking on the bottom left.
------
puredemo
Great app. Africa doesn't seem to be much of a fan of FF4 though. ;p
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ghost 1.0 - pieterhg
https://blog.ghost.org/1-0/
======
tbenst
And, four years later, they still have not fulfilled their kickstarter promise
of the Ghost Dashboard. This was the most requested feature on their public
trello roadmap before the card was deleted one day. Over the years there have
been many inconsistent messages around this feature being worked on, then
delayed until Apps, then eventually forgotten. Maybe this was the right
decision for the company, but certainly a case study in how not to manage
public expectations and the danger of public roadmaps (you'll be held
accountable by frustrated customers!)
I'm still a paying customer of Ghost Pro but migrating to self-hosted Hakyll
static site. Ghost has grown to serve a completely different market than they
originally set out to serve.
~~~
wlesieutre
Interesting. I saw Ghost when it was on Kickstarter and my mental model of it
was still "That's the blog platform with the nice dashboard."
Guess not.
I did look at them again (Ghost Pro) last time I thought about setting up a
blog, but there was no way to serve static files alongside posts. Anything
that's not the text and images has to be hosted separately unless you want to
roll your own Ghost server. If I ever get around to making myself a website
I'll probably just use Pelican.
~~~
tedmiston
It is pretty easy to self-host Ghost though.
~~~
wlesieutre
And it's even easier to not!
I'm sure I'm capable of managing a webserver, but it's one more thing to worry
about that I'd just as soon skip.
------
chipotle_coyote
Remember back when Ghost's slogan was "Just a blogging platform?"
I've been following them off and on for years, because I liked the notion that
it'd be good to create a modern version of WordPress that focused on blogging.
But they've swept that vision of Ghost under the carpet -- excuse me, they've
pivoted -- to claim:
_Ghost was founded in April 2013, after a very successful Kickstarter
campaign to create a new platform focused solely on professional publishing. "
And, okay, but maybe they should remove the link to that Kickstarter page,
given that the word _professional* doesn't appear on it once. Yes, they say
"Ghost is a platform dedicated to one thing: Publishing," but they go on to
say "Ghost allows you to write and publish your own blog," a use case that is,
to say the least, significantly downplayed by their current messaging.
I wish them well in Creating The Future Of Publishing™, I guess. Meanwhile,
great application idea: maybe someone could create a modern version of
WordPress that focuses on blogging.
(Yes, Jekyll Hugo static site generators woo, but for people who are _not_ HN
regulars, having something you don't need to build and deploy from the command
line is a nice thing. I went with WP for my new web site because despite my
sincere belief that WP's internals are a series of dumpster fires connected by
require() statements, WP's dashboard -- and its API -- are pretty useful.
Ironically, from what I can tell Ghost is way behind on both of those fronts,
even at 1.0.)
~~~
suyash
Anyone knows some light weight Node JS based alternatives to Ghost?
~~~
jameskegel
Express and a weekend with Google.
------
callahad
> _we 've marked Ghost 0.11 as a Long Term Support (LTS) release. We will
> continue to provide maintenance and security updates for Ghost 0.11 for the
> next 6 months._
What's the lower bound on labeling something "long term support?" If I recall
correctly, Canonical introduced their LTS releases, which are supported for
five years, to address concerns about their six-month cadence.
------
goodroot
Phew, tough crowd. We use Ghost for our company blog. It works great! Spun the
new editor up locally and it's pretty slick; I'm excited to use it.
Nice work, Ghost Team. Only gripe is the electron-desktop application; Byword
integration with Ghost would be preferred, or a method of using a well
integrated non-electron native application, if Ghost isn't too keen on cooking
one up -- which, I understand.
------
unethical_ban
So wait, why is everyone hating this product? I installed it and thought it
was pretty cool (though I didn't keep using it beyond one post, on how to
install it!).
On-site live Markdown writer/viewer, easy publishing... seems like a pretty
simple system for a lightweight blog.
~~~
simplify
Yeah, I'm not sure either. I've been using ghost's hosting for years, and
haven't had a single problem with it.
------
venantius
I've used Ghost for a number of years now, both self-hosted and using their
hosted service (for both business and personal uses!). So I suppose I fit the
complete matrix of their target user.
I'm pretty excited about this new release - the editor has always been nice
but I'm thrilled to see they're investing in improving it, and I'm also
unreasonably happy to see a dark theme added.
Mostly, I'm just happy to see that they're working on it and that the changes
are directionally correct. It would be easy for them at this point to start
making mistakes, but I think they've been fairly good at figuring out what
people use Ghost for and responding to their needs accordingly.
The team has also been quite responsive when I've submitted support requests,
which is always an extra plus in my book.
------
andrewbarba
More technical article worth reading:
[https://dev.ghost.org/ghost-1-0-0/](https://dev.ghost.org/ghost-1-0-0/)
------
zimpenfish
> We are also now defaulting to MySQL for production blogs as a future-
> proofing measure.
Oh FFHS, must this scourge infect everything?
And there's no Docker image for 1.0 up yet.
~~~
ihuman
What were they using before, and what's wrong with MySQL?
~~~
jlmn
Postgres was an option for production along MySQL and SQLite3 was suggested
for development instances. Sqlite3 is still supported.
The mentioned why they dropped it here: [https://dev.ghost.org/dropping-
support-for-postgresql/](https://dev.ghost.org/dropping-support-for-
postgresql/)
> Without active community support, Postgres has always been, and always will
> be a second-class citizen. For that reason, we are dropping official
> Postgres support from Ghost core.
~~~
andrewbarba
This is incorrect, Postgres was always second class. I know because I tried my
best to keep it running on postgres for months, back the 0.5.x days, and it
was always a source of frustration.
~~~
seanwilson
What kinds of problems did it have? Why is it so difficult to support MySQL
and Postgres at the same time, and why would MySQL be prioritised?
~~~
zimpenfish
> why would MySQL be prioritised?
"Because it's easier to slap a system together on MySQL". Which, to be fair,
it is but that's not a good thing when you're talking about data.
~~~
seanwilson
Why is it easier though?
~~~
zimpenfish
Because it was a lot easier to deal with permissions, you could write "SQL"
rather than SQL, it was very lax with SQL keywords as table names (ie. you
could create a table called 'user'), replication didn't involve selling your
soul to several devils, etc.
It's like Rails - it's easy to slap something up but once you start using it
in anger, it requires all the handholding and effort.
------
33degrees
They mention building their new editor on this:
[https://github.com/bustle/mobiledoc-kit](https://github.com/bustle/mobiledoc-
kit)
Anybody have experience with it?
~~~
mixonic
Mobiledoc dev here. Mobiledoc is used at Bustle (who funded initial
development) on two properties, at Upworthy, Daily Beast, and on several other
sites. We're extremely proud this work has also been adopted by Ghost and hope
to continue working with them for a long time :-)
One of the benefits of Mobiledoc is that we provide a documented and versioned
file format for serialized documents. This allows developers to share
renderers for Mobiledoc content. Bustle for example publishes Mobiledoc
articles to it's own HTML, to Google AMP, and to Apple News.
Mobiledoc also supports runtime-customizable "cards" for rich content. For
example a writer might add a video to an article- but for each rendering
environment the runtime version of that card must be different. The cards API
allows developers to offer custom editing and embedding interfaces without
breaking the general text editing interface.
Try it out and let us know what you think. You can join our Slack:
[https://mobiledoc-slack.herokuapp.com/](https://mobiledoc-
slack.herokuapp.com/) or find me on Twitter as @mixonic.
~~~
33degrees
Yeah, it's the "card" functionality that appeals to me. I was planning on
building something using slate.js but Mobiledoc sounds like it will fit my
needs. Thanks for responding, I'll check things out.
------
laacz
So, this is so weird. That link shows everything blurred. Windows 10, latest
Chrome. [1]
1: [http://imgur.com/XmquYMF](http://imgur.com/XmquYMF)
------
thenomad
The Koenig editor looks a lot like the Medium editor. Bravo. Looks very cool.
(Can it output static content? Ghost's fast, but HTML's faster. :) )
~~~
lookingsideways
Ghost renders static HTML and includes relevant cache headers on it's
responses so if you have a cache or CDN in front then it's pretty much
indistinguishable from static HTML :)
------
jeremy_k
I really wanted to like Ghost. I self hosted a blog for a couple years (didn't
use that much) and really enjoyed tinkering around with the JS and deploying
some custom code. But I just really felt like having no metrics was a huge
disappointment; not that I would have garnered tons of views but it still
rewarding to see them. I once had Blogger account where I posted some random
iOS learnings and one of the posts actually got a lot of views, which was
really cool to see.
Seeing this 1.0 release and then going to the roadmap board and seeing
[https://trello.com/c/rQL1Kiyx/61-post-
analytics](https://trello.com/c/rQL1Kiyx/61-post-analytics) that the analytics
is still in the backlog is disheartening. Maybe some users didn't like the
editor, but I found it to be sufficient. So here we are two new editors!!! and
no post metrics...
~~~
api
Install Piwik?
------
npunt
Really impressed with the update, and _really_ excited about the new Koenig
composer. Having built a CMS at my news startup (edsurge) I know firsthand the
pain that comes from composers that use html as the document storage model,
rather than a more flexible (and recompilable) intermediate format like json.
I've long liked the Ghost approach, but some of the execution (composer,
themes, and lack of self-updating) has been seriously wanting. Looks like 1.0
fixes these points.
My big gripe with 1.0 is the default Casper 2.0 theme. They've decided to
include one of the most persistent anti-patterns on blogs of adding a fixed
header sharing bar [1]. Mobile devices already have both sharing and scrollbar
functionality, making the header both redundant and actually worse UX, since
it takes away valuable reading space. It's totally for the benefit of the
blogger and chasing a trend at the expense of the reading experience for the
user, all to get a few extra shares. This has been covered before [2].
My view is defaults like these are _so_ important in encouraging best
practices and setting expectations. Although its only on this one theme (and
can be disabled easily if you dig around and customize), I imagine other
themes will dutifully copy the pattern, assuming its how the Ghost experience
should be. From the outset, Ghost was about 'just a blogging platform', free
of the cruft of Wordpress - a minimal expression of what blogging should be.
This sharing bar is not that.
Still, kudos to the Ghost team for shipping 1.0. So many good changes.
[1]
[https://twitter.com/nickpunt/status/890641710488756224](https://twitter.com/nickpunt/status/890641710488756224)
[2]
[https://daringfireball.net/2017/06/medium_dickbars](https://daringfireball.net/2017/06/medium_dickbars)
~~~
pascalandy
There is no need to cry about this. Casper has been migrated to Ghost 1.0 as
well.
You basically have two option now:
[https://github.com/TryGhost/Casper/commits/master](https://github.com/TryGhost/Casper/commits/master)
Have fun :-p
~~~
npunt
Were I to push a change to Casper, my sense is it would be rejected, as John
O'Nolan (the Ghost maintainer) responded to the tweet I linked with:
> "It’s really not an anti-pattern. And it can be disabled with literally 1
> line of code"
Since we disagree about whether these bars are good or bad UX, I believe
that'd be a non-starter. And although it can be disabled, it adds unnecessary
friction -- defaults should encapsulate best practices. As Ghost is a blogging
engine that should appeal strongly to less technical users (by being simpler
and better UX than wordpress), having to manually download, edit, and reupload
a theme seems to not be in alignment with one of the key value propositions of
the product. I doubt most users even change the default theme, and that's okay
- frankly, that's a sign that the product is really good.
Since you're new here (or at least your account is new), HN is a community
where we regularly discuss things like the scourge of downloading 5MBs of
javascript in order to view a single news article, the importance of sane
defaults, or other specific issues related to design and tech. It seems
pedantic but its a place where people care about such things, and we don't
typically tell people they're crybabies when bringing them up.
------
dahauns
Whoa, easy there on the css effects. Might come out a bit silly otherwise.
[http://imgur.com/a/Dk9Jl](http://imgur.com/a/Dk9Jl)
(No, there's nothing wrong with your eyesight - this is a 100% crop from
Chrome.)
------
lord_jim
I wish you could just run ghost locally and then publish a generated static
site. I actually much prefer the Jekyll flow to ghost but the core ghost ui
and functionality are great for less technical bloggers. It just seems like a
waste of time and money to be running a node app to serve what are essentially
static pages
------
nahum1
C'mon now, Ghost was a scam! The guys took like 200K+ and if you add all the
extra from their pro services you will go crazy. All these money for what? 4
years of development and a buggy heavyweight platform. Give me 200K and I will
personally code it way better in 6 months or less without any bugs and shit.
~~~
johnonolan
[https://twitter.com/mathowie/status/837735473745289218](https://twitter.com/mathowie/status/837735473745289218)
------
alexellisuk
I'm still not sure about the re-work of the Ghost platform, it feels way more
opinionated and I liked the ability to pick and mix components. However the
Ghost CLI is a step forward.
Read my quick test-drive and try out 1.0 in Docker in 5 minutes:
[https://blog.alexellis.io/try-ghost-1-0-in-
docker/](https://blog.alexellis.io/try-ghost-1-0-in-docker/)
------
jasonrhaas
Why is this markdown editor better than Medium's? It probably has a few more
features but the design and UI looks like a clone of Medium.
~~~
mattferderer
LinkedIn also uses a similar WYSIWYG. This design has been around longer than
any of these companies have been using it.
What separates this is that you won't just get a dump of HTML from the editor.
You'll get the content split into JSON [https://github.com/bustle/mobiledoc-
kit/blob/master/MOBILEDO...](https://github.com/bustle/mobiledoc-
kit/blob/master/MOBILEDOC.md)
This is beneficial if you plan to use your content in more than one place. For
example, maybe the content is used on multiple websites, pulled into an e-mail
newsletter, displayed on digital signage, integrated into an app or news
services outside of your control. If you're interested in this idea, I suggest
searching for the terms COPE or decoupled CMS.
~~~
samat
Headless CMS is also popular term
------
the_common_man
Is there way to automatically migrate a pre-Ghost 1.0 ? (like using APIs
instead of clicking through a UI?)
------
garagemc2
on a side note, does anyone know how to get that text effect on the headline
image (that says ghost 1.0)? Is there a common pattern?
~~~
rocktronica
Looks like a "paint" font on top of a filtered stock photo
[https://blog.ghost.org/content/images/2017/07/DJI_0006-Edit....](https://blog.ghost.org/content/images/2017/07/DJI_0006-Edit.jpg)
------
mstjohn1974
I looked at it once last years and it is really easy to you and very nice
designed. I like it.
------
ahben
still no auto upgrade??? :(
~~~
johnonolan
Sure, this release includes Ghost-CLI, which enables auto-updates for the
first time. Details here:
[https://dev.ghost.org/ghost-1-0-0/](https://dev.ghost.org/ghost-1-0-0/)
------
ejfox
I love that nowhere in this post do they explain what Ghost is or who their
customers are or any of that. At first I thought, I guess, IA Writer
competitor? Then, maybe, 2017 Wordpress alternative? Super unclear.
------
suyash
I'll consider using this platform when they move away from monolithic Ember.
~~~
bluehatbrit
How does their choice in front end tech make a difference from a user
perspective? If they'd built the same thing in Angular or React, it'd still
function the same way.
~~~
suyash
It depends a whole lot if you are releasing the software as open source and
want other developers to contribute to it. That is what they have done.
~~~
disordinary
Yeah, that's why Ember is so great - any developer who is familiar to the
stack can contribute as there are standards and patterns which are consistent
across platforms, Ember is also the perfect fit for a large and long term
project which is constantly evolving because of the backwards compatibility.
The other consideration is that Ember is a community driven project and isn't
beholden to some large corporate monolith.
------
lcnmrn
I rather hack my own blog engine in PHP
[https://github.com/lucianmarin/instanote](https://github.com/lucianmarin/instanote)
rather than using Ghost.
~~~
sametmax
Thank your for spaming HN with your project.
~~~
slig
Why the snark? I see this happening everyday here. The only difference is that
people also use "shameless plug", or something like that.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Cards for Humanity: a fast-paced online game (built in Angular) - gdi2290
http://cfh.io/
======
lquist
I hope you guys have the rights for this...
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Schism: A library of CRDT implementations of Clojure’s core data types - tosh
https://github.com/aredington/schism
======
hardwaresofton
Once you get past all the complicated math (honestly being into Haskell has
helped with this), CRDTs are actually very easy to understand, at least their
semantics are.
Here's are some decent primer talks:
John Mumm - A CRDT Primer: Defanging Order Theory ->
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOlnp2bZVRs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOlnp2bZVRs)
"CRDTs Illustrated" by Arnout Engelen ->
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xFfOhasiOE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xFfOhasiOE)
If you want to see it in action:
"Practical data synchronization with CRDTs" by Dmitry Ivanov ->
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veeWamWy8dk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veeWamWy8dk)
Service Discovery using CRDTs by Mushtaq Ahmed and Umesh Joshi at FnConf17 ->
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKSbiFDb3dU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKSbiFDb3dU)
There's also a talk with a guy sitting in a field which is the best I think
I've ever seen, but I can't find it... but I can't find it in my youtube
history :(
As people reason more and more about distributed systems I think CRDTs will
become (if they're not already) almost required knowledge, like paxos/raft.
~~~
macintux
I was fortunate enough to work at Basho, where CRDTs were part of nearly every
technical discussion about how to progress Riak.
One of my former co-workers, Chris Meiklejohn, continues to push forward with
CRDTs via Lasp[0]. He has a good list of reading materials[1] that it doesn't
look like he's maintained recently but should still be useful.
Guess I'll plug my meta-list of distributed systems reading lists[3]
(definitely currently unmaintained) while I'm here.
[0]: [https://github.com/lasp-lang/lasp](https://github.com/lasp-lang/lasp)
[1]:
[http://christophermeiklejohn.com/distributed/systems/2013/07...](http://christophermeiklejohn.com/distributed/systems/2013/07/12/readings-
in-distributed-systems.html)
[2]:
[https://gist.github.com/macintux/6227368](https://gist.github.com/macintux/6227368)
------
gritzko
I am the author of the CT vector CRDT, also the author of the Replicated
Object Notation
[http://github.com/gritzko/ron](http://github.com/gritzko/ron).
I tried to look into the code, and I am not sure which way they implemented
list and vector. The explanation is a bit confusing, especially the mention of
"insertion index".
Definition and support for Schism's Convergent List type. The
convergent list is a simple timestamped log of entries with a vector
clock. Convergence places entries into the resultant list In
insertion order. The vector clock conveys that an item has been
removed from the list on another node."
Convergence places entries into the
resultant vector in insertion order, with insertions occurring by
replaying insertions operations in order.
CRDT is all about _partial_ orders, so what does it all mean? Orders are
different for different replicas.
(Disclaimer. I am not a Clojurist.)
~~~
dunham
Yeah, I couldn't follow the descriptions either.
It looks like "list" only supports appending (conj), removing the first item
(rest), and removing all items (empty).
The data consists of a list of items, a "clock" (map of nodeId to Date
object), and a list of (nodeId,Date) corresponding to the values.
I think they're using the clock to determine whether to drop deleted items on
merge. Code for the operations is
[list.cljc:153-169]([https://github.com/aredington/schism/blob/master/src/schism/...](https://github.com/aredington/schism/blob/master/src/schism/impl/types/list.cljc#L153-L169)).
The merge code is "synchronize" a little further down (I didn't read through
it).
The "vector" object supports append (conj), pop, clearing the list (empty),
and setting a value at a position (assoc). It does _not_ support
insert/delete. It is structured similarly to "list" except using vectors
instead of lists for the values and the timestamps. Code is at
[vector.cljc:222-244]([https://github.com/aredington/schism/blob/master/src/schism/...](https://github.com/aredington/schism/blob/master/src/schism/impl/types/vector.cljc#L222-L244))
------
j-pb
A thorough explanation of its semantics would be good. A set for which union
is defined as the empty set is also a CRDT, but a pretty useless one. And the
explanation sounds a bit like, it converges by loosing data consistently.
~~~
jwhitlark
A thorough explanation for a 0.1 project seems a high bar. I'd like to see an
example or two where it loses data in the manner he speaks of, though.
------
cellularmitosis
Turning “CRDT” into a link would be great! Wasn’t familiar with that acronym.
~~~
qubex
_Conflict-free Replicated Data Type_ :
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflict-
free_replicated_data_...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflict-
free_replicated_data_type?wprov=sfti1)
~~~
jxub
Also,
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xFfOhasiOE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xFfOhasiOE)
is a pretty good conference talk that offers a high-level overview of CRDTs.
~~~
cbcoutinho
Wow small world! The speaker (Arnout Engelen) is also the author of the
'nethogs' tool, which I've used to diagnose networking issues.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Perfectionism versus Obsessive Compulsive Disorder - DanBC
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-truisms-wellness/201612/perfectionism-vs-obsessive-compulsive-disorder
======
pkaye
I got to admit an OCD/perfectionism trait (out of many I will not all list) I
used to have when I was younger... I would install say an Linux distribution
on my computer and somewhere a few hours or days afterwards I would make a
slight mistake in configuring it and I felt a level of discomfort that I must
reinstall the whole thing from scratch. One summer I spend a good part of time
doing this kind of stuff and getting no productive stuff done. Used to think
it was normal behavior until I learned about OCD in a book by chance. I called
my hospital and spoke to a psychologist and the CBT therapy worked great for
me. Thankfully I've not had OCD compulsions since then. I just look back at my
youth and how much time I wasted acting that way...
~~~
marpstar
Reminds me of a friend mine. When we were teens we’d be reformatting our
machines every other month it seemed like. The one time he created the
partition and ended up with something like 49.9GB instead of an even 50GB. He
proceeded to redo the entire install and partitioning while I stood by
dumbfounded that he’d waste all that time.
~~~
shaolinpanda
I've done this myself! :/ It feels like the relief of getting it "right"
outweighs the time wasted, at least at the time. But it's kind of crazy when
you think about it!
------
joe_the_user
One of the things about all these mainstream psychology arguments is that the
phenomena are presented either a pathological condition with associated brain
chemistry _or_ a simple psychological difference of little consequence. There
is no room anywhere in these discussions for person's condition to shade
between cognitive difference that can be quite useful in some situations and
related behavior that might be seen as a serious dysfunctional in other
circumstances (and people).
~~~
PhasmaFelis
I thought that the DSM's criterion for pathology vs. eccentricity was whether
it negatively effects the person and/or those around them. Treatment is only
indicated insofar as the condition is actually causing a problem.
------
0xFFFE
Is striving for an elegant solution making optimal use of resources same as
striving for perfection? Question is half rhetorical, asking because I would
like to hear other opinions.
~~~
WalterSear
I don't think so.
Perfectionism is about meeting an premeditated ideal. Striving for an elegant
solution involves approaching a problem with an open mind, and making
compromises.
Elegance minimizes and co-opts cruft. Perfectionism's anxiety refuses to admit
that cruft is an unavoidable and often necessary part of life, and is usually
too expensive to entirely eliminate.
------
Koshkin
TL;DR: Perfectionism is OCPD (where 'P' stands for 'personality').
I think that most people who call themselves perfectionists are not really,
they just like the way it sounds. But if they really are (whether because of
OCPD or because they are trying), they tend to wreak havoc on things they want
to make perfect - including their own lives...
~~~
drunkenmonkey
Sometimes havoc is optimal.
------
Kenji
_Individuals with OCD who prepared a meal may not be able to eat their food
because of thoughts that the stove might be on._
I have a coworker who told me that he used to take a photo of his stove before
going out of the house so when he was at work, he could simply take out his
smartphone and confirm that the stove was off. Engineers sure get inventive
with their coping mechanisms :)
------
danieltillett
Has anyone met an actual perfectionist (i.e. someone who produces near perfect
work)? All the "perfectionists" I have met are either delusional (i.e. their
output is far from perfect), or who are just slow and who use it as an excuse
for their lack of productivity.
~~~
watwut
Perfectionists don't produce perfect work. As described in article, they obess
with details, lists, loose sight of big picture and then can't finish work
(half of task being perfected other still untouched ) or finish it after very
long time.
I met some people who did very little mistakes. In anything non trivial there
tend to be differences of opinion about what is perfect solution.
~~~
danieltillett
I understand what the clinical definition of a perfectionist is - I was more
interested to know if anyone had met an actual perfectionist.
The people I have met who have produced the best solutions are the least like
the clinical definition of a perfectionist - they are efficient, see the big
picture, and pump out the best (or near best) answer first time.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
How can I avoid a 404 for non-existent pages and serve a default page instead? - Corsterix
Instead of returning a 404 error for a non-existent page I want nginx to serve a PHP script that returns some dynamically generated content and return a 200 as if the page existed normally, is this possible?
======
thedirt0115
Have you looked at this?
[https://www.digitalocean.com/community/tutorials/how-to-
conf...](https://www.digitalocean.com/community/tutorials/how-to-configure-
nginx-to-use-custom-error-pages-on-ubuntu-14-04)
~~~
Corsterix
I have now! Thanks.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Amazon wins streaming rights for Thursday Night Football - huac
http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Daily/Closing-Bell/2017/04/04/NFL-TNF.aspx
======
dmix
I hope Amazon markets this properly. My GF and I both struggled to even find
the [https://www.primevideo.com/](https://www.primevideo.com/) landing page
after we signed up. They have two different interfaces... the amazon.com video
section and a seemingly unrelated Prime Video site which was difficult to find
on their site. I had to use chrome://history the following day after signing
up for the 30-day trial.
Amazon is great at specific UX functionality but not so great at high-level
information architecture.
Prime Video has a superior video player to Netflix thanks to the XRay feature
which tells you which actors/songs are currently playing/acting during the
current scene. I've used it countless times.
Speaking of Xray, for sports it would be great to see which players are
currently on the field/court during a game, including which jersey number, and
if possible the box score when you hover over the game. That would have been
amazing during NCAA March Madness where I didn't know most of the young
college players.
The only thing missing from the Amazon player which Netflix has is "skip intro
credits" button.
I love this technology/product competition between the two none-the-less.
~~~
hkmurakami
Xray is powered by IMDB, which Amazon also owns right? Is there an entity they
could buy to power such a service for sports?
~~~
ukyrgf
X-ray shows the actors that are in that specific scene. Does IMDB have this
information that they just don't show on their public site? That seems a lot
more useful of a database than the few titles Prime offers it on.
~~~
tootie
That feature is damn impressive. It's incredibly responsive and accurate.
------
caseysoftware
The big reason many people have to _not_ canceling their cable is live sports.
If this is the new trend, it's catastrophic to cable providers.
~~~
donretag
On the flipside, many have cut the cord because of the high cost of cable,
partly due to the cost being inflated by being forced to have channels such as
ESPN. Amazon purchasing the rights to sports increases the cost for those that
do not care about sports.
~~~
cookiecaper
ESPN is currently quite the quagmire for Disney corporate. Surprisingly, it's
the business unit that makes up the largest amount of Disney's revenue, around
30%. [1] The last several posted losses for Disney (including the one just
reported this month) have been primarily due to decreasing subscriber counts
for ESPN.
ESPN royalties are ~$7 per subscriber; $7 of your monthly cable bill goes to
Disney _just_ for ESPN [2]. They are obviously collecting that from many
people who are uninterested in sports, as most basic cable packages include
ESPN (if not ESPN 2 and so forth).
Cord cutting is the single biggest threat to Disney right now, and I'm sure
this, a major signal that people are excited to consume their sports via the
web and that ESPN is inching closer and closer to death, has them crapping
their pants.
When Amazon buys Disney World, will they replace Cinderella Castle with a
giant cardboard box bearing the "Amazon Prime" tape? ;)
[1 (PDF)] [https://ditm-twdc-
us.storage.googleapis.com/q1-fy17-earnings...](https://ditm-twdc-
us.storage.googleapis.com/q1-fy17-earnings.pdf)
[2] [http://awfulannouncing.com/2016/espns-rising-cable-fee-is-
no...](http://awfulannouncing.com/2016/espns-rising-cable-fee-is-now-up-to-
over-7-per-subscriber-per-month.html)
~~~
martinald
I'm actually surprised how cheap ESPN is. In the UK, adding the two main
sports networks (Sky and BT) adds something like $70/month, maybe more, to
your bill. It's definitely not included in "basic" packages but i bet millions
of people still subscribe to both. It's pretty much the only reason people
have payTV, and something like 60% of households do have payTV as a whole.
~~~
nikcub
You need five channels to get the equivalent of what BT and Sky provide with
the Premier League, and you are absolutely bombarded with advertising.
European football isn't really suitable to the same business model, so we have
to pay for our sports.
------
jonathankoren
I never understood Twitter's TNF streaming. I couldn't watch it on the phone,
and when I tried the website, I saw a small video (no audio) of the game, with
live tweets. I was genuinely confused and turned off by the experience. I
wanted to watch the game, just like I would have on television, but instead I
got this neither fish nor fowl experience, that was the worst of both.
Twitter should have never gotten the contract at all, because they don't have
a video client that runs on my television. Facebook doesn't either, and that's
why Facebook shouldn't have gotten it either.
Watching video in a browser is lame when I have 55 inch display literally feet
away. I want my content there. That's where I watch OTA television, Netflix,
and Hulu. If you can't provide it to my television, you've failed. (Yeah, you
can hook your computer up to your screen via HDMI, but it's janky as hell, and
a horrible experience. It's the 21st century equivalent of taping a magnifying
glass to your television and calling it a "big screen"
[http://www.tvhistory.tv/TV-Magnifying-Lens.JPG](http://www.tvhistory.tv/TV-
Magnifying-Lens.JPG))
~~~
virusduck
All the twitter games were simulcast on CBS... Not sure what the point of
having them on Twitter was...
~~~
jonathankoren
Probably an attempt to court young people and cord cutters.
Some people don't seem to know that many of the popular channels come free and
over the air like radio.
------
tiff_seattle
Hopefully they will be broadcasting in 4K. It could be an influential driver
of people with 4K TV's to try out Amazon Prime.
~~~
paulcole
I'd bet the has 4K TV and doesn't have Amazon Prime segment to be pretty
small.
~~~
paulddraper
Probably.
Vizio's TVs are pretty much all Smartcast (Chromecast) now. Chromecast doesn't
work with Amazon Video, which is the main reason I don't watch it despite
having Prime.
~~~
mustacheemperor
Semantic correction, but it's really Amazon who refuses to let their streaming
garden exit their hardware garden. I'd say it's more that Amazon Video doesn't
work with the Chromecast. Since, you know, that's driving a lot of Fire Stick
purchases (fellow frustrated Chromecast and Prime owner here).
~~~
echelon
This is the reason I don't watch Amazon Prime video. It's so dumb to have to
have a separate device for everything.
~~~
wtvanhest
I bought a roku. Plays both amazon and netflix perfectly with a great
interface.
~~~
Cyph0n
I'm planning on buying a Fire TV stick. Plugs into your TV like the
Chromecast, and plays Netflix, Amazon, Hulu, HBO, etc.
------
seibelj
I just want to watch local games on my HD antenna. Being locked out of a
Patriots MNF game, forcing me to either go to a bar or watch an illegal
stream, is simply absurd.
~~~
aanm1988
Why is this absurd? It's expecting you to pay for their product.
~~~
bjorn2404
Don't forget that many of the stadiums are at least partially funded by taxes.
~~~
gregshap
The patriots stadium construction was owner funded.
"After the Hartford proposal fell through, Robert Kraft paid for 100% of the
construction costs, a rare instance of an NFL owner privately financing the
construction of a stadium."
[[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gillette_Stadium](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gillette_Stadium)]
~~~
Retric
_Concurrently announced was a new road to access the stadium from U.S. Route
1_ so not quite.
~~~
SnowingXIV
That doesn't mean the city paid for it. If you start a new land development to
put up houses, you often cover all the costs associated with putting in roads
and signs. Not saying that's what happened here but one sentence saying a road
was put up doesn't indicate paid for by taxes.
------
puranjay
So Amazon seems to be competing pretty hard for my streaming dollars.
I subscribe to Netflix and I buy a HBO Go subscription when GoT comes around
(and cancel it right afterwards)
Given the good things I've heard about a few of Amazon's shows (the Man in the
High Castle for instance), I'm tempted to give it a try.
But I'm not going to pay for two streaming services at the same time. I just
don't stream enough to make it a feasible choice.
I reckon this is a good problem to have. Lower costs for me, and higher
content quality
~~~
qqg3
Amazon is the better deal if you only go for one, their content library has
gotten better and better.
Also, consider the other perks you get with Amazon, shipping, music, books etc
------
thesehands
No question they have the infrastructure to do this well. I was impressed with
the quality that Yahoo managed when they streamed some live games last season
- perfect clarity with zero buffering and very little choppiness to the stream
that some other providers don't always manage.
~~~
tootie
I use Prime video extensively and it works great, but I've not seen them
attempt a live stream. I actually don't know how big a technical challenge it
is compared to static streaming.
~~~
huac
Amazon owns Twitch so I'd say they have some experience with that
------
sremani
YouTube is my overwhelming choice, you want to be on a platform that is in
some form substituting TV. Twitter, FBLive, Amazon, AppleTV, XboxLive etc. are
all nice but are sideshows.
YouTube and Netflix are the only two real games in town, but YouTube is the
overwhelming front-runner.
------
douche
Thursday games are usually the worst, so I'm not sure what kind of a coup this
is. Really, the NFL needs to bag the whole idea of Thursday games
~~~
kbouck
Agreed. TNF doesn't allow teams enough time for preparation and physical
recovery from the previous week's game. Especially when the previous game
takes place on Sunday or Monday night.
The Redskins had a stretch this past season where they had to play MNF on
11/21, and then TNF on 11/24 -- only 2 full days in between. That scheduling
was absurd.
~~~
fletchowns
Is it really that big of a deal if that happens once in awhile? I'm probably
opening a huge can of worms with this comparison, but NHL players play 3-4
games a week all the time. Granted, both sports are tough as hell on the
players.
~~~
kunaalarya
Football is much more tough than hockey and needs recovery time. Hockey is
tough but Football you have running backs/WRs getting hit on every other play.
You have the QB getting knocked down 3-5 times a game. The the offensive line
is having a pushing and hand war with the defensive line on every single play
while playing strategically and covering additional players. The WRs have to
sprint on every play. And for special teams you have the opposite team running
at you as you run at them.
------
amelius
When will VR sports streaming become a thing?
I want to watch a match virtually from within the stadium.
~~~
Touche
Steve Ballmer talked about this recently on a podcast, and said that they are
working on it. It would allow you to buy a "virtual ticket" for any seat in
the building.
I think it's a pretty great idea for fans who live far away from their
favorite teams.
~~~
ghaff
Sporting events (and experiences like concerts more broadly) seem like one of
those areas where VR could actually find paying customers. There's a proven
market for subscribing to watch this sort of activity and it avoids the
physical interaction/feedback challenges that a lot of other VR applications
have.
The tech still needs to get better and there are certainly questions of viewer
fatigue etc. But it certainly seems like a very plausible use of VR.
~~~
kunaalarya
i don't get this. You get a better view of the game on tv (multi-angles,
commentary, etc.). You go to arenas for the experience, of getting there
beforehand, tailgating, going with your friends/kids. You get a worse view but
you get a better experience. Why would you use VR for a worse view without the
experience?
~~~
Touche
As a baseball fan who doesn't live in a city with a team, I would definitely
use this. You're right that you don't get the full experience with VR, but I
disagree that the view isn't _part_ of the experience. So if the choice is no
experience, only TV viewing, or some little bit of it, I'll take VR. Not every
time I watch, of course, but every once in a while, definitely.
EDIT: I just realized that you're probably focused on football. Football isn't
a great live sport for viewing, so I get where you are coming from there. The
pregame experience (tailgating) is the biggest reason to go to a football
game. I've done plenty of tailgating where we never go into the game at all.
For other sports I think this makes more sense.
------
sumoboy
Only need to signup 500k people to break even.
------
Neliquat
So cable and all its burdens is just followimg the cordcutters. Please amazon,
let the sportsball fools pay their own way. I cut cable partly to avoid paying
the sports tax.
------
syshum
>Amazon has wanted to put sports rights on its Amazon Prime video service,
Amazon wants me to cancel my Prime Video Service....
I would have rather gotten Season 3-n of Alpha House than Football or any
other sports.. If they start investing in sports over premium content they can
count me out...
I have been a prime member almost from the beginning of prime, I own 6 fireTV
devices, and a few Kindle's, I am deep in the Amazon eco system, I will rip
them all out over sports..
I dropped cable TV originally because I grew tried of most of my payment going
to subsidize sports, and having my channels interrupted with "Live Sports"
~~~
Godel_unicode
So if they pocketed the $50 million or did share buybacks or similar you'd be
ok, but you have an ideological problem with sports and will cancel over them?
~~~
mynameishere
He's probably concerned that going forward a certain large percentage of his
"Prime" subscription will go toward sports, just like cable:
[https://consumerist.com/2014/08/05/espn-accounts-for-more-
th...](https://consumerist.com/2014/08/05/espn-accounts-for-more-than-6-of-
your-cable-bill-could-soon-top-8/)
...I doubt Amazon will get that bad, but it's definitely a good reason to
currently avoid cable. Really, for people who don't like sports, the notion
that watching people throw a ball around costs vastly more than the other
channels is baffling. I really don't want some heavyweight imbeciles getting
my money when I want to watch news/movies/comedy/etc.
~~~
Godel_unicode
This just seems like such a strange attitude, given the veritable ocean of
non-sports content out there at the moment. If your show got cancelled, it's
almost certainly not because of sports; rather, it's exceedingly likely that
it's up against some other show (or shows) which drew a larger audience.
In fact, realize that up until very recently a great deal of non-sports
content only got created because sports were used as leverage against the
cable companies. The bundling that happened on major cable networks required
cable companies to carry channels which comparatively few people watch in
order for the cable company to be allowed to carry e.g. ESPN. If you're a fan
of indie content/comedy, you should be happy about the existence of ESPN et
al, otherwise your show would likely not exist.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
VPAID ads destroy performance and are still served by major ad networks - archon810
https://plus.google.com/+ArtemRussakovskii/posts/7jMWV7oCQpn
======
cantlin
At the Guardian we needed our own video player, because we couldn't rely on a
third party platform not to take down something that we published. Editorial
independence was important.
We implemented our player on top of video.js, and most of the developers who
were there at the time still have nightmares about it.
We finally got the thing working, looking good, embeddable, reasonably cross-
browser. We shipped it. A few days later, we get a curious email from some ad
provider. "It looks like your VPAID ads have stopped running!"
Oops. We'd naively believed we could live without Flash (I take full
responsibility for this stupidity). The sales folks pointed to a big gap
between our old projected revenue and our new projected revenue. So we went
and did the work[0], hating every minute of it.
The underinvestment in ad-tech by publishers and the cancerous ecosystem of
vendors that have grown up around it is one of biggest collective mistakes
made by an industry.
I am optimistic that this problem can be solved, and we are actively looking
at this at my current employer. We sell direct, usually without a ton of
intermediaries. Talk to me if you want to know more.
Incidentally, if you want to know if a publisher is going to survive the next
five years, a decent proxy is the number of intermediaries involved in their
ad supply chain.
[0] [https://github.com/guardian/video-js-
vpaid](https://github.com/guardian/video-js-vpaid)
~~~
thirdsun
Thanks for your insight.
Maybe I'm naive but how are these ads of any value to the advertiser? - nobody
wants them, everybody ignores them. How can ads that surely almost exclusively
receive accidental clicks be so worthwhile for publishers like you?
~~~
dave_sullivan
Advertising is a weird business.
There's different types of media: print, television, digital (banner ads).
Print is dead (has been the increasingly accurate argument for 10 years now),
television is expensive and untrackable, and digital is here to save the ad
industry because that's where all your customers are and it's very trackable.
The value to the advertiser is either direct-action ("click here and
buuuuuy!") or branding ("we exist, see!") Companies like Verizon, Proctor and
Gamble, Johnson and Johnson, unilever, etc. spend billions on branding.
How does that money get allocated? Well, you've got a brand manager for, say,
Acme Inc. Their job is "Get more people to buy" and they split their resources
between creative--often working with big agencies (think Madmen, see
AdAge)--and media buying. There's often pressure to spend less on creative and
more on ad buys. And when ad buys don't perform, they say "We should have
spent more on creative".
Media buying is basically buying banner ads (or tv or whatever). They're
typically sold at a CPM (Cost Per thousand iMpressions), less often Cost Per
Click.
So to answer your question: major brands have billions for branding and it's a
bunch of people's jobs to spend that money and convince the people they work
for that it's money well spent. And if it's not money well spent, they'll find
someone who will tell them it is.
~~~
manigandham
> So to answer your question: major brands have billions for branding and it's
> a bunch of people's jobs to spend that money and convince the people they
> work for that it's money well spent. And if it's not money well spent,
> they'll find someone who will tell them it is.
I'll be the first to say there's a lot of mismanagement, incompetence,
politics, etc that leads to this but it's also one of the most data driven
industries around and there's a lot of proof behind the results. It's not all
just random guessing.
~~~
shostack
Despite all that data though, there's still very little in the way of a clear
approach to figuring out cross-channel attribution, valuing view-throughs etc.
~~~
manigandham
This is a case of it being simple but not easy.
The technical strategies are pretty straightforward but it's all the business
policies, silo'ed data, bad integrations/tech, privacy issues/constraints, and
(the worst of all) politics and outdated thinking, that cause these issues.
Attribution isn't that hard, it's basic analytics and statistical analysis -
but half the agencies don't have any understanding of math or tech and just
use last click wins with some unreliable vendor and probably poor
implementation which ultimately hurts everyone.
~~~
shostack
As someone who has invested countless hours reviewing attribution reports and
has seen how it is handled by companies of all sizes (including up to Fortune
50 brands), I respectfully disagree with your statement that "attribution
isn't that hard."
I have the fortune to also work with an incredibly bright Data Science team
(several of whom have phenomenal stats backgrounds), and they all agree with
me.
Many companies and agencies know last click has very real limitations.
Likewise, for anyone that has started to go down the rabbit hole, you quickly
find all of the other static models have similar limitations. Dynamic/data-
driven attribution at the user path level is the way forward, and Adobe's
econometric attribution modeling tools are the closest I've seen to getting it
right. But even that has limitations (cost being just one of them). The free
reports in GA and AdWords are a great start, but likewise have their own
issues.
There are a LOT of variables in terms of sample sizes, data accuracy,
inability to effectively isolate an experiment group due to other marketing
efforts, etc. that all throw other major wrenches into this.
All of that said, I'd genuinely love to hear your solution for how to
definitively solve attribution from an analytics and statistical analysis
perspective. As much as I disagree with your statement, I realize I don't have
all the answers, and if you have them, I (and many others) want to hear them.
Personally, I think this is the biggest challenge the industry faces right
now. My gut says display and video CPMs are overvalued, but better analytics
and better data are needed to really help advertisers answer the questions of
things like "what is a view through worth?" or "how much revenue should I
attribute to this display/video campaign?"
------
JoshTriplett
> A single VPAID ad absolutely demolishes site performance on mobile and
> desktop, and we, the publishers, get the full blame from our readers.
The site is responsible for including ads; "publishers" should get the full
blame from their readers. The publishers themselves can complain to the ad
network they use, but readers are right to just blame the publishers.
~~~
mpclark
It's not that straightforward though; these networks all pile in on each
other, layers and layers deep, and in real time. It is very difficult for a
publisher to work out who they are dealing with.
The only network ads I had running on my news site were from Google Adsense,
the seemingly reputable choice, but I found ads and trackers from all sorts of
networks were infiltrating through that little window.
The only reasonable action was to just turn it all off and forgo the marginal
ad revenue. We now only host ads we have sold direct.
~~~
Sir_Substance
>It's not that straightforward though; these networks all pile in on each
other, layers and layers deep, and in real time. It is very difficult for a
publisher to work out who they are dealing with.
Then the publisher should stop working with networks that do this.
That's not in our control as users, only the publisher can do that.
~~~
archon810
The problem is pretty much all networks do this.
~~~
nailer
Maybe there's a market there? An ad network content providers can trust.
Even well known news websites have ios app store redirects that stop content
from being viewed.
~~~
dhimes
Maybe what we need isn't an ad network, but a service that makes it easy for
sites to self-host ads. Like some sort of gateway- I'm thinking adapter
pattern- so that advertisers build their ads to a certain spec, and the web
site plugs them in. The ad isn't served by a third party, just spec'd by it.
We'd also need a plug-and-play payment pattern.
~~~
marcosdumay
That gateway is an ad network.
Now, if it was an open standard without a gateway, it would be a different
beast. But fraud would kill it.
~~~
dhimes
No- the ad isn't served by the gateway. It's not an ad network. It's a
standard (open or not) combined with the _service_ to help advertisers conform
and site owners to plug them in. Like itunes for ads.
Ad networks seem to be immune to fraud. Large companies will pay to have their
brands seen anyway; us small guys take the hit.
~~~
dsl
Having worked for an ad network that went under due to fraud, I politely
disagree that they are immune.
~~~
dhimes
Interesting. Is the story online? Do you want to share?
~~~
dsl
Sales people sign up publishers, I make the determination they are fraudulent,
VP of Sales overrides my decisions, I leave company, advertisers demand
refunds of dollars already paid out to publishers, rinse, repeat.
~~~
dhimes
Hmmm. ok. Service trumps network then, for sure.
------
spiderfarmer
What I would like in a new kind of Ad network:
\- all ads are responsive HTML5 ads
\- all resources are loaded over HTTPS
\- ads are based on your content, not on a profile of the user
\- ads can be requested server side by sending the URL where the ad will be
displayed through an API. The response contains the ad code, as well as the
expiration date
\- if you want, you can even download a package with all resources so ad
blockers can't block you. (unless they target you specifically)
\- if you don't get an ad in return, you can fill that space with your own
fallback ads
\- the ad network also does some kind of sentiment analysis so it doesn't show
ads for Donald Trump on a page that's critical about him
\- the ad network immediately severs ties with anyone who abuses the system
~~~
_ao789
This is literally what HaloAds (HaloAds.com) aims to fix. We have been
irritated with the state of online advertising for long enough now.
We are looking for people to try it out once it launches. Show your interest
at [https://HaloAds.com](https://HaloAds.com)
~~~
nailer
Since you seem to specialise in this, FYI:
> Mixed Content: The page at '[https://haloads.com/'](https://haloads.com/')
> was loaded over HTTPS, but requested an insecure stylesheet
> '[http://fonts.googleapis.com/css?family=Lato:400,300,700,900'](http://fonts.googleapis.com/css?family=Lato:400,300,700,900').
> This request has been blocked; the content must be served over HTTPS.
> [https://haloads.com/assets/img/favicon.png](https://haloads.com/assets/img/favicon.png)
> Failed to load resource: the server responded with a status of 404 ()
~~~
WiseWeasel
For Google Fonts, it's best practice to leave out the protocol and link to
'//fonts.googleapis.com/...'. It's unhelpful that their link generator still
suggests '[http://fonts...'](http://fonts...').
~~~
spiderfarmer
Or just download them and serve them from your own domain. If you enable
HTTP/2 there is little to no advantage of using a third party for hosting
fonts.
~~~
bowersbros
Wont they be cached from other peoples websites saving the download?
~~~
spiderfarmer
No. Well, maybe, if you're using one of the most popular fonts, but each
combination of weights is a seperate CSS file, that's probably a unique
combination and _only cached for 24 hours_. A reason _not_ to use Google fonts
is that it's just another tracking tool in their arsenal. For each request,
cookies are sent to Google's servers, so they have enough reason to avoid
cache hits.
------
a3n
From the comments:
> Peter Dahlberg > we, the publishers, get the full blame from our readers.
> That's because you are to blame. As far as I know nobdoy forces you to use
> those shitty ad networks. Look for a honest way to finance your business and
> don't whine.
That actually makes a lot of sense. As long as Google et al. are making money
from this, they have no incentive to change. Google, the automated rainbow
monolith, in particular doesn't have any incentive to even _listen_.
But if publishers take the apparently extremely inconvenient step of using
other networks, this sort of shit might get cleaned up. EDIT: Perhaps I should
have said "other buyers;" these problems seem closely associated with the
nature of ad networks.
The problem for me as a user, is how would I know the difference that such a
site has, and then know that I can whitelist it?
~~~
volatilitish
One of the problems there, is Google has locked this down.
Chrome and Firefox warn users if they visit "deceptive websites", and disallow
it. It's touted as part of their "safe browsing feature".
What it means in practice though, is that if you use another ad network, and
that ad network has an advert that Google dislike, they will block your
website on Chrome,Firefox and Safari also uses it now I believe. They won't
just block the advert, they will block your whole website. Getting unblocked
takes ages, and is a complete pain, because google will not tell you which
advert it objects to.
So it's not a simple case of "Use other networks", because Google have thought
about that, and locked it down. It's a big risk to use another ad network,
because Google might just decide to block your website.
The fact that Google now controls what websites users are allowed to visit,
should ring alarm bells with everyone. Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be
reported on.
~~~
mercer
> What it means in practice though, is that if you use another ad network, and
> that ad network has an advert that Google dislike, they will block your
> website on Chrome,Firefox and Safari also uses it now I believe. They won't
> just block the advert, they will block your whole website. Getting unblocked
> takes ages, and is a complete pain, because google will not tell you which
> advert it objects to.
Does this actually happen? And if so, what about the advert does Google
dislike? And if there is no good reason for this, how does Google get away
with it?
~~~
Tyr42
It's usually a legitimately harmful ad. Malware, adware or other bad stuff.
But these slip through quality control of ad networks, even when they don't
want them.
~~~
volatilitish
It's worse than that IMHO.
They dislike "deceptive" adverts. So for example, if it's an image, saying
"download" then Google will block your website.
Who knows, maybe in the future they'll start banning websites that advertise
gambling or other things they dislike.
Now I do think that adverts like that are irritating, and deceptive, but
should the _website_ that happens to be using an ad-network, that allowed an
advertiser to upload an image that says "download", be blocked so that users
cannot access it from Chrome and firefox? Of course not. Censorship in
browsers is just not a good thing going forward. And pretty much every ad-
network (Even adsense) has problems keeping out bad adverts. I don't see why
Google should penalise website owners for an advertising-industry-wide
problem.
IMHO It should be investigated by governments, as it's a clear case of using
their muscle to retain their absolute monopoly of online advertising.
~~~
AlexandrB
> Now I do think that adverts like that are irritating, and deceptive, but
> should the website that happens to be using an ad-network, that allowed an
> advertiser to upload an image that says "download", be blocked so that users
> cannot access it from Chrome and firefox? Of course not.
Why not? At least that would get websites to look at the ads their ad networks
are serving up a little more than "not at all". Ultimately these ads would
impact the site's brand even if browsers didn't block it, the damage would
just be more subtle and easier to ignore.
Until somebody in the ad delivery chain accepts responsibility for ad quality
nothing is going to change. Publishers and websites have the most to lose here
and should be demanding better from their ad networks.
~~~
volatilitish
So you want to squash the tiny amount of competition there is in the online
advertising space?
I think it would be fantastic to have a credible alternative to Google
adsense, but there isn't one at the moment.
Technically, a better approach would be for Google to block the advertisement
or even the ad network. Blocking the website publisher is just bullying
tactics.
------
captainmuon
I'm a bit shocked about the state of advertising. When I was making websites
(~early 2000s), there were a lot more options to choose from, it seems. Now
you basically just have Google and this opaque network of algorithmic
auctions. Back then, you had a bunch of small business ad networks that you
could choose from.
I found you could also choose more different formats. OK, there was no video
(thank God), but you could have unobtrusive text links, you could have
banners, little buttons, HTML blocks, and so on. And yes, also annoying pop-
ups and flash ads...
You also had paid content, which is absolutely taboo and vilified today, but I
believe it was not nearly as bad as we think. It was certainly better than
some alternatives (horrible pop-up-ads that installed dialers, does anybody
remember them?) Back then, I was proud to not serve evil or annoying ads, and
to promote articles from partners on my site - including setting links to them
to promote their page ranks. (That Google shows links among search results
that they get money for, but forbids slightly improving the position of search
results when other people got money for it tells a lot IMHO.)
One alternative to the current situation would be for sites to serve their own
ads (from their own servers). I wonder why this isn't done at least from big
sites?
~~~
pjc50
_One alternative to the current situation would be for sites to serve their
own ads (from their own servers). I wonder why this isn 't done at least from
big sites?_
There's no way to prove that you've served a particular number of ads to real
humans. That's why all these ridiculous brokers and third-party fragments of
javascript exist: it would otherwise be trivial for the publisher to defraud
the advertiser.
~~~
a3n
How do physical newspapers prove ad serving to their buyers? I'm certain they
don't point to every single newspaper thrown in a driveway.
~~~
pjc50
Third parties and surveys e.g.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circulation_Verification_Counc...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circulation_Verification_Council)
Similar to Nielsen ratings for television, they're approximate.
~~~
kbart
So why can't the same be done on websites? If numbers of views can't be
confirmed without spying on users or trusting shady actors to do that for you,
it means the business model that is based on this metric is skewed.
~~~
lmm
If one network offers approximate numbers from an expensive external audit and
another network offers "exact" tracking through cookies etc., which network do
you think advertisers will spend with?
~~~
kbart
Exactly such egoistic and short term thinking led us to the current situation
and the widespread usage of ad-blockers, no?
------
_Understated_
In most walks of life we happily pay for something that provides us value:
Cars, phones, shoes etc. I don't see the web/app ecosystem as any different
although owners (that's app creators and web site owners/creators) feel they
can make more by selling our lives to a third party - That's not something I
want to happen with my details I will block your system for doing so. If I
feel your site/app is not providing me with value then I likely will
uninstall/never come back. It's a choice thing.
I have paid for apps in the past and will continue to do so in the future but
only for stuff that brings me real value. I may not be the biggest supporter
out there but I have a couple of Patreon's running (is that the right term?)
for people that provide me with value.
Let's face it, there is a whole load of shite content out there... so maybe we
need to cull the herd a bit.
Anyway, you can run a website for almost nothing these days and spending, say,
$50 a month will get you some serious hosting solutions so if your business is
just exploiting my browsing habits and selling my metadata on then I will
happily grab the popcorn and watch your site burn.
~~~
a3n
I pay for access to NYT, Economist and Guardian. And I still block their ads.
I expect them to eventually kick me out or charge more, because I'm sure my
subscription fee isn't covering their profit goals.
Even if I was paying full fee for these things to be dropped on my physical
door step every day, there would still be ads, only they'd be static and safe.
~~~
lsaferite
I have a visceral hate for advertising inside a product I pay money for
(website, magazine, movie, etc). The only exception I've found to that being a
product packaging including advertising for additional catalog items from the
same manufacturer or retailer.
------
ungzd
BTW, nowadays everyone talks about AI, machine learning and "mobile-first".
But when I open any mobile app or any mobile website with ads I see only ads
of "clash of kings" and similar scammy games. They collect lots of data but
ads have no targeting at all. At least ads on mobile phones. I can't
understand it.
~~~
rm999
I used to work in the industry - mobile ads can be quite targeted. My guess is
apps like clash of clans appeal to a wide range of people and are backed by
heavy ad spending. This means a wide variety of people will be targeted with
their ads.
Doesn't mean ads arent targeted. E.g. a 25 year old white programmer probably
isn't getting Spanish language ads, or ads targeting new mothers, or ads for
retirement communities.
~~~
creshal
> Doesn't mean ads arent targeted. E.g. a 25 year old white programmer
> probably isn't getting Spanish language ads, or ads targeting new mothers,
> or ads for retirement communities.
You'd be surprised. I bought a travel sewing kit five years ago on Amazon, and
ever since I'm getting advertisements and "recommendations" for handbags,
makeup and high-heeled shoes. It's so blatantly sexist and wrong it's almost
funny again.
Almost.
~~~
wtbob
> It's so blatantly sexist and wrong it's almost funny again.
Have you considered that it's blatantly sexist and _right_? I.e., that perhaps
no-one programmed the ad network to associate sewing kits with handbags,
makeup & high-heeled shoes, that perhaps the ad serving AIs learnt that on
their own?
I wonder what we'll do when our AIs come to socially-unacceptable-but-true
conclusions. Humans can be brow-beaten or persuaded into ignoring the truth
systematically, but computers have to either have each bit of truth-denying
programmed into them, or have much better intelligence and spend much more CPU
calculating at a higher level in order to avoid socially-unacceptable truths.
~~~
creshal
> Have you considered that it's blatantly sexist and right?
I buy an average of a hundred items on Amazon a year, among them all my – male
– clothes. Your algorithms are just plain shit when a single purchase five
years ago is somehow weighed more than the whole rest.
~~~
apk17
The algorithm guesses that your wife is doing the ordering, and is targeting
her.
~~~
creshal
So the algorithm isn't even able to differentiate between the buying behaviour
of a married couple and a single male living alone, with roughly 10 years
worth of buying history to judge from?
I'd fire the department responsible for that waste of money.
------
jacquesm
At some point the cost of advertising to the medium in terms of user
disengagement will exceed the income. I can't wait for it to happen, then at
least we will reach some kind of steady-state.
I really pity the newspapers, especially the ones that also have an online
presence, they are caught between a rock and a hard place and no matter what
they do they end up hurting themselves, their employers, users or
shareholders. It's very hard to transition from a 1800's model to one that
will work 200 years later.
Bandwidth being as cheap as it is means that advertisers really don't care
about how many bytes they need to shove down the pipe in order to make a sale.
End users on metered bandwidth (mobile for instance) will suffer but that's
not the advertisers problem, to them it is mission accomplished and the
website owner/publisher will end up holding the bag.
~~~
archon810
I find it pretty ironic that Google constantly tries to optimize for every
byte in some of its products, pushes for speed and mobile optimization, yet
ends up completely negating that in its advertising offerings.
This and the malware that gets through. Stop allowing arbitrary Javascript in
ads, and that's it - problem solved. But nope, the cat and mouse chase goes
on, and maldvertisers are always a step ahead.
------
adam-a
I recently had a similar problem, browsing a reputable news site
(newstatesman.com), I accidentally clicked an ad and got taken directly to a
page containing explicit pornography. I complained to the site and they said
they do what they can in terms of blacklisting ads, but they don't have enough
time or staff.
I can't believe there's no ad network that will take a stand against abusive
advertising and actually vet the ads on their network. Surely they could get a
lot of business and at least a lot of goodwill. Is it just too labour
intensive?
~~~
moron4hire
You would think some of the most profitable companies in the world could
afford to hire a few interns to put eyes on any and all ads before they go
out.
~~~
poooogles
>hire a few interns to put eyes on any and all ads before they go out.
They do, all creatives are audited on submission. You can't provide literally
ANY creative at bid time, it has to be one that's been audited. It's people
that then switch the creative once the audit has been completed that are
screwing everyone. It should result in you being banned from the network, but
it's hard (apparently) to ban people that are paying the bills for you the ad
network.
~~~
mikeash
Why is it even possible to make changes after the audit?
~~~
aembleton
Because the user is forwarded to a website that can be changed.
~~~
mikeash
Oh right, I momentarily forgot that the complaint here was with the target of
the ad, not the ad itself.
------
snarfy
Sites need to be legally liable for installing malware on your computer. That
will solve all of this. I can go to prison for clicking on the wrong link but
somehow they get away with drive-by ransomware installs.
~~~
archon810
This is laughable. If site owners could go to jail every time a 3rd-party code
they're not fully responsible for does something bad, they'd all be in jail
now.
[https://blog.malwarebytes.org/threat-
analysis/2015/08/large-...](https://blog.malwarebytes.org/threat-
analysis/2015/08/large-malvertising-campaign-takes-on-yahoo/)
[http://arstechnica.com/security/2016/03/big-name-sites-
hit-b...](http://arstechnica.com/security/2016/03/big-name-sites-hit-by-rash-
of-malicious-ads-spreading-crypto-ransomware/)
Etc.
~~~
franciscop
Then the only standing ones would be site owners who care enough to make sure
they don't allow malware on their visitor from their site. What's the problem?
~~~
archon810
Because that's not how the world works. You'd jail 99.999% of publishers and
the only ones not jailed would be ones who don't have any advertising.
~~~
J_Darnley
Sounds great to me. People only publishing what they want others to read, no
clickbait, absolutely marvellous.
~~~
umanwizard
How do you expect journalists to pay their rent in this utopia?
~~~
franciscop
The internet and cheap computing has made anyone with some writing skills able
to compete with journalists.
So maybe journalism as a profession is dying as blogging as a hobby rises. Of
course there is value in professional journalism, but the need for that
journalism is more specific.
IMO it will happen similar to encyclopedia authors or GPS makers followed a
decade back.
------
arca_vorago
What ever happened to just offering a product that is in high demand and
charging for it, and ignoring advertisers?
There are a lot more cancers of the advertising industry than just those
listed too. In particular I would say the news industry which is a shadow of
its former self, is a great example. It doesnt matter what major news site I
go to, theres a big half, full, middle page popup that requires an x yo be
hit, or wait for this ad, or some wierd hyperlink hijacking bullshit, or any
number of other douchebaggery which tells me the site considers the ad network
a bigger customer than the reader.
I'm mostly talking about on the phone, on desktop, with a combination of
ublock origin and others this is greatly reduced, but only a small subset of
the population uses those.
Our country is in what amounts to a constitutional democratic crisis of epic
proportions but ads are interfering with citizens informing themselves due to
recursive feedback loops between publishers and advertisers.
Dont even get me started on how the standard SV business model I see is:
create something semi novel, get a bunch of users, sell company, new owners
exploit users for advertising, ride the wave until the crash.
Or how people pay money for cable but still sit through 18 minutes of
brainwashing, mindnumbing commercials for the priviledge of paying!
Its a big ol racket basket of bullshit. Cancer barely even begins to describe
it. How about stage 4 metasticised cancer of the everything.
------
franciscop
If someone needs to have an ad solution to have their website running it is
NOT a business that should exist.
It's like we say restaurant owners should support the mafia because otherwise
they cannot make money in the neighborhood. Or any other criminal(ish)
activity.
"Without advertising we wouldn't be able to run this" MAYBE it really means
you shouldn't run it at all, but don't force advertising(+malware) down your
users throat just to justify an unsound business decision.
Edit: reworded to avoid confussion
~~~
anexprogrammer
But a lot of niche forums - games, hobbies and so forth are unlikely to
monetise any other way. Should they die too? Or have to rely on a rich
benefactor deciding to host a motorcycling (or whatever) site?
Few are going to pay a subscription to chat on a Civilization or fishing forum
a few hours a week. Advertising _should_ be the appropriate model for this.
Trouble is it's being poisoned by the greed of Buzzfeed and Wired etc.
~~~
Faaak
Come on, hosting a simple website/forum is really cheap nowadays. Some
websites (wikipedia being the main one) simply ask for donations at the end of
the year.
~~~
angry-hacker
Wikipedia is in different position than other sites.
Every time someone posts a link to paywall, everyone discusses how to bypass
it. And the people reading HN are wealthy Silicon Valley people. Well, not me
but you get the idea.
Everyone talking about charging people instead ads - have you ever tried it?
Tell me your success stories.
~~~
icebraining
My forum runs on yearly donations. The shared hosting plan and domain cost
$48/y, so about six people usually cover the costs for the whole year for the
price of a fast-food lunch.
If you're trying to pay salaries, good luck, but hosting costs are very low
nowadays.
------
bkmartin
Yep... I have seen this increasing steadily for a while now. Most major "news"
sites have this garbage being served. Then these same sites decide to autoload
video at the top of the page and their site becomes completely unusable. Do
they not realize how horrible the experience is for the user?
~~~
omerhj
It took CNN years to get the aspect ratio of their videos right -- all of
their web video used to look like standard def TV stretched out to a HD
screen. So the answer is almost certainly no.
------
Faint
This whole thing would actually be technically quite easy to solve: just
introduce new attribute to iframe, say f.ex. you could have traffic-
limit="10MB", and request-limit="5". Browser would block the iframe and
anything that runs in it cold, if it exceeds limits. In an ad-auction one
would sell the ad space with the knowledge of those limits. Publisher would
have perfect control on how heavy ads they allow on their page. Ad networks
could still run arbitrary js. And tracking the amount of raw traffic or
requests on a separate iframe should not be hard to implement.
~~~
ojosilva
Wouldn't it be easy to just...
var iframe = document.createElement('iframe');
iframe.src = '(ad url here)';
document.body.appendChild(iframe);
For every new ad?
~~~
Dylan16807
Sure, and since that code runs inside the frame because you're not crazy
enough to let it out of its box, the new nested frame shares the same budget.
No problem.
------
BooneJS
Some people, like my elderly father, live in an area where it's dial-up or
Verizon LTE MiFi with severe data caps (~14 GB for $100 per month). He's an
old-school newspaper & magazine reader, so advertisements don't offend him. He
actually looks at them from time to time as he reads ESPN and on-line
newspapers.
However, page loads that approach 100 MB are leaving him with less money in
his pocket to purchase the products and services being advertised. Something
needs to give.
~~~
PhantomGremlin
_page loads that approach 100 MB are leaving him with less money in his
pocket_
Install Firefox and NoScript for him. Turn off Javascript completely,
everywhere, except on a handful of whitelisted sites.
That's what I use, every day, and it's really no problem to surf the Web that
way. You miss some of the pictures, you miss 99% of the ads, you're not
constantly wallowing in the advertising cesspool.
------
alistproducer2
This is exactly why I have JavaScript turned off on mobile and selectively for
some desktop site (politico nd salon are two examples of ba actors).
As a die hard JavaScript guy, I hate doing this. The performance gains have
been so large that I dont miss JavaScript any more. There are a few sites that
demand it and I make the determination whether or not to enable JavaScript
based on how badly I want to read or do whatever is at that site.
------
sunstone
On my desktop the fan literally starts winding up for takeoff when I hit one
of these pages. Taken across all the users how much electricity is just being
wasted by these things?
Perhaps there should be a running "hall of shame" listing of the most
egregious offending pages. Sure it's not their fault directly but these days
few organizations want to be associated with the useless wasting of energy.
------
lpgauth
This as nothing to do with VPAID[1], it's the player that decides how many ads
to play. VPAID is just an IAB standard for video ads...
[1] [http://www.iab.com/guidelines/digital-video-player-ad-
interf...](http://www.iab.com/guidelines/digital-video-player-ad-interface-
definition-vpaid-2-0/)
~~~
phamilton
That's mostly true. The player decides how long to allow the ads to play. It's
very possible to put multiple ads in a single VPAID unit.
~~~
lpgauth
Sure, but the player will decide how many ads to play.
~~~
phamilton
That's my point. The player will decide how many VPAID units to play. The
VPAID unit can show multiple ads and essentially lie to the player saying it's
a single ad. This happens, and is actually on the mild end of abuse.
------
whatever_dude
And people complained about Flash, as if it was the cause. It was just one of
the effects.
We moved on, and now it's even worse because now it's one additional http hit
for every resource requested (images, jsons, etc). Things were as bad before
with tags and tracking and analytics and whatnot, but at least many of the
resources loaded were self-contained in a well compressed SWF file.
Hopefully now we're realizing it's not about the technology involved, but what
people actually do with it.
------
timdorr
How is something like this even economical?
All those servers to keep up with that request rate and all that bandwidth
spent. Even as costs go down, I don't see how anyone can break even on this.
The tiny fraction of a penny earned on this ad is surely outweighed by the
cost to display it.
And also the follow-on costs of increasing bounce rates and less time-on-site.
Publishers have to be seeing less value in these kinds of ads that perform
this way.
It doesn't make any kind of economical sense!
------
tengkahwee
Unfortunately ad technology and creative companies are not using the VPAID
standard properly. Essentially VPAID is simply a JS file. One really bad VPAID
I seen is generated through Adobe Animate CC and meshed with a bunch of custom
code with jQuery in it. The image assets are all oversized because Samsung
Galaxy S6 edge supports 2560 x 1440 and it wasn't resized to fit desktop
proportions. The VPAID standard doesn't constrain the designer in terms of
payload and how many connections to send.
------
Narutu
Has anyone tweeted this to Matt Cutts (Head of Web Spam at Google) ?
~~~
archon810
Good idea.
[https://twitter.com/ArtemR/status/742687018514157568](https://twitter.com/ArtemR/status/742687018514157568)
~~~
poooogles
>I'm the head of the webspam team at Google. (Currently on leave).
From his Twitter account.
------
gregatragenet3
I can see why advertising networks want to use ads which slow down browsers.
The only ads I've 'clicked on' lately are those where the site was loading
slowly and the bowser registered my click late, on an ad window which changed
page layout as it loaded. I think most clickthroughs these days are from the
page layout jumping around while rendering and not real. If the page rendered
quickly you'd loose all these accidental clicks.
------
rubyfan
This among many other reasons is why publishers lose the ad blocker debate
with me.
------
bernarpa
I manage ads in several mobile apps and I've chosen to disable full screen
video ads. Still Google's AdMob mail hints keep recommending to activate them
as well in order to get more revenue. More revenue for me and more revenue for
the ad provider, that's the only reason.
~~~
archon810
I'm on a war path with these video ads, but advertising networks don't give us
enough (or any) tools to disable serving them. Most of the time, it's either
all or nothing. Some let you disable certain types of ads, including AdSense
(it has a VPAID checkbox now that I think about it), but when I reached out to
AdX people about it, they were not helpful so far (their recommendation was to
turn off anything that says "video" in the OptIn tab, except that does not get
rid of these VPAID ads).
sovrn was a network I dropped for this very reason - they kept serving VPAID
ads and didn't give me a way to turn them off.
The list goes on.
------
jkot
> _I 'm at 53MB downloaded and 5559 requests._
That was not advertisement, but malware. It is probably running DDos attack on
some website. We should block that.
Anyway, at ancient days I surfed with i486 on 14.4 kbps modem. Not much has
changed since.
~~~
mrweasel
>That was not advertisement, but malware.
I doubt it. It more likely that someone wants to know how long the
reader/users of a page are exposed to their ads. Some idiot savant then
figured "Hey, we'll play a video and download the bits in chucks. Then we know
how much of the videos was played, and that's the amount of time they spend on
the page."
~~~
jarnix
It's just that the advertiser, the agency, the ad network, another ad network,
and another agency are tracking the time that you are watching the video.
Plus, sometimes, they track every second or the code is really dirty and does
this kind of crazy number of http (tracking) requests. 5000 requests is above
the average though :) But I saw recently an ad like that, and it was like 100%
of my surf on a website.
------
forrestthewoods
Block all ads, all the time. No exception.
It's not an ad blocker. It's malware protection.
------
tlrobinson
One of the ad blocker blockers I came across had the balls to suggest blocking
ads could negatively affect the performance of the site.
I laughed, then dropped into the DOM inspector to remove the blocker overlay
element.
~~~
ojii
Probably bloomberg? They have this hilarious ad-blocker blocker popup:
We noticed that you're using an ad blocker,
which may adversely affect the performance
and content on Bloomberg.com. For the
best experience, please whitelist the site.
No bloomberg, the ad-blocker positively affects the performance and content on
your site. For the best experience, make sure your adblocker blacklist is up
to date.
------
kerkeslager
What it comes down to for me is this: businesses don't have some god-given
right to exist. If you can't get people to give money to your business enough
to at least cover your costs, then your business should go out of business.
If we enter into a business relationship, I will pay you for a good or service
that you want. I will be obligated to do so because we came to an agreement in
which you provide me the good or service and I give you money. But I'm not
obligated to pay you money if I don't want to, and in turn, you wouldn't be
obligated to provide me with your good or service. If not enough people give
you money, you will go out of business. That's the risk you take with running
a business.
If you enter into a business relationship with an advertiser, good luck. That
has nothing to do with me. I get that you came to an agreement with the
advertiser in which you provide them with ad viewers and they give you money,
but it's not my responsibility to help you hold up your end of the bargain by
viewing ads. At best advertisers are wasting my attention to try to sell me
something I don't want or need. At worst, they're lying to me, collecting my
private data, installing malware on my devices. Advertising is almost
universally reprehensible. I want nothing to do with them. If advertisers
don't pay you enough money, you will go out of business. That's the risk you
take with running a business.
Of course, if I don't view your ads, you aren't obligated to provide me with
your good or service. I fully support sites that use anti-adblocking banners.
I mean I support them morally, not financially; if I come across such a banner
I'll leave.
There are arguments about whose responsibility it is when ads do reprehensible
things: is it the ad network or the publisher? This strikes me as similar to
arguing whether the hit man or the person who hired him is responsible. Don't
take money to do reprehensible things and you won't have this problem.
There's also an argument floating around that ads are the only things that
makes quality content possible. This is obviously false: I remember the 90s
and content was _better_ pre-advertising. Sheldon Brown's website[1] is
_still_ the best website if you want to choose a bike that fits your needs.
Erowid[2] is _still_ the best resource for information on drug harm reduction.
And decades of development have only made things better for non-ad models:
even without a packaged solution like Patreon it's not hard to include
donations or paid subscriptions on your website.
Yes, some businesses will not survive the transition to non-ad models, but we
have good reason to believe that the BuzzFeeds and Gawkers of the world will
be disproportionately represented in that number. I'm looking forward to it.
[1] [http://sheldonbrown.com/](http://sheldonbrown.com/)
[2] [https://www.erowid.org/](https://www.erowid.org/)
~~~
kup0
Thank you for this comment. I have never been able to really articulate my
position well on web advertising (even to myself, when debating over the sides
of the issue) and this is it.
------
pmcgrathm
It isn't the ad itself that is causing those streams of requests, but rather
the ad technology vendors buying or selling the data from the ad server from
which the ad was delivered.
Don't blame the publisher or advertiser for not noticing that their 'anti-
fraud' vendor is sending itself events every millisecond.
------
natch
OK, so this guy is complaining about a cancer inflicted on us by advertisers
like Google, while posting on a site that (speaking of cancers nobody is
talking about) requires a Google login to view. I agree with his point, but
the obliviousness to the problem caused by his choice of blogging platform is
a bit rich.
~~~
brohee
Doesn't require a Google login for me...
~~~
natch
You're probably already logged in.
------
kazinator
The fact that video objects can be started programmatically is the problem.
There should be no API for a page to start a video; it should be only possible
for a video to start via a UI action.
It's not just a problem with ads, but with videos in general. If I land in a
video-hosting site, I don't want the video to start.
~~~
mjevans
I agree that playing, fullscreening, etc, a video should be a /protected/
action. However I believe that an end user should have SOME mechanism of
allowing such actions on their behalf.
If this sounds like a security model you are correct.
Currently the lowest hanging fruit security model would be allowing a plugin
to run client side and white-listing which domains it can work with (is
triggered/loaded on).
------
spiderfarmer
Why isn't there an ad network that lets you inject ads server side? That would
solve a lot of problems.
~~~
archon810
Because any sort of page caching makes it much harder to count impressions,
among other reasons.
~~~
spiderfarmer
With HTML5 ads there are several ways around that I think?
~~~
archon810
HTML is a client-side language for browsers to interpret. I'm not sure what
you mean exactly - can you please clarify?
~~~
spiderfarmer
HTML5 ads are like small webpages. So you can still use javascript to load
tracking pixels from within the creative.
[https://www.richmediagallery.com/detailPage?id=9017](https://www.richmediagallery.com/detailPage?id=9017)
------
chrismbarr
One thing to note: When the developer tools are opened Chrome will temporarily
disable the cache. When the video loops it would normally just reach into
cache and re-play the file that was already downloaded. However, with devtools
open it will probably re-download all the files again.
~~~
archon810
That's not true at all. It only disables the cache if you tell it to. Like so:
[http://i.imgur.com/dutc1cy.png](http://i.imgur.com/dutc1cy.png).
As you can see, that checkbox is not on in the demoed GIF.
The ad code is actively requesting new ads and pinging its trackers countless
times.
~~~
chrismbarr
ok, sure, it's configurable. But that box is checked by default.
~~~
archon810
1\. Not for any installs of Chrome I've ever had.
2\. That's entirely irrelevant in this matter because it was not turned on.
------
dave2000
I block ads so perhaps one of the many "we owe it to site owners to not block
ads" types can explain an alternative solution which doesn't involve me paying
for stuff I don't want and which both slows my devices and drains their
batteries.
~~~
dredmorbius
Universal content syndication / income-indexed broadband (or total content)
tax.
$100/year will cover all Internet ads.
$500/year will cover all advertising. Period.
That's money you're already paying.
Oh, and that's Europe, North America, Japan, and Australia, pretty much. The
rest of the world gets awesome content for no charge.
~~~
dave2000
I'm already paying that? I would never opt into advertising like that were it
available. Most of the sites on the internet can just die for all I care. I'd
still do online banking, buy stuff from amazon, read news on the BBC's sites.
I don't mind paying individual sites if they ever wake up and offer that
possibility but i'm not holding my breath. But as long as the choice is
"streaming video/running javascript/annoying popups/privacy violation" vs that
site going away, well...bye bye.
~~~
dredmorbius
Advertising has costs. They're paid by consumers.
My "you" is statistical, but yes, generally, of the $500 billion spent on ads
worldwide, the industrialised world, about 1 billion people, pay for it. If my
maths check out, that's $500/year.
Amazon is Google's largest single advertiser.
I'll see if I cant find an _excellent_ HN comment made a ways back (and not by
me).
Ah, here:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7485773](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7485773)
~~~
dave2000
Thank you for taking the trouble to find and post it, but I don't agree with
hardly any of it. Facebook is free and so even if it were true that it would
be of higher quality if there was a cost associated with it, i'm happy with it
the way it is. (The great is the enemy of the good and all that). I have a
very minimal use of facebook; just Messenger, and that's a great little app.
If my usage of Facebook is paying for the infrastructure (and for Whatsapp,
which I prefer because of the encryption) then so be it. I'm glad to be a part
of it; I don't feel used or violated at all. They're welcome to whatever data
they can clean from me; very little, I suspect. I don't see the ads, of
course, because I use ad-blockers. The arguments about the best minds making
people click on ads; well, at least the ads pay for services like google,
facebook etc. A lot of very smart people are creating games, or writing blogs,
or whatever. Utterly artless (most games are not art using any meaningful
definition of the word) distractions from life. But that's their choice, and
the consumers who use them. I'm not going to start paying for search engines
or facebook or email etc any time soon.
The bit about advertising and its effects on society at the end is the bit I
come closest to agreeing with, and it's a shame that the author of that past
thought to start it with a quote from a terrible book and not, say, Noam
Chomsky. I have no problem with advertising in principle; just the way it's
been co-opted to sell lies and dreams. Ads on the web - in contrast to the
sorts of ads you get offline - seem to be old fashioned, telling you about
specific products and services, rather than showing you what your life could
be like if only you owned this or that brand of fridge.
------
cwilkes
I'm more angry that clicking on this link on my iPhone even in Safari's
Private browser launches the Google Plus application.
Why not just go to the webpage? And why launch another app that can identify
me from an app that is meant to not allow that?
------
ademarre
Why is the online advertising industry so slow to address performance
problems? Doing so is clearly in their best interest. Don't give people a
reason to hate your product, especially when it's in your power to make it
better.
------
grandalf
For some reason I ignore ads when I'm reading content. Nonetheless, once sites
started moving to full interruption ads, I decided to use adblock.
What boggles my mind is that people actually look at the ads and click on them
and buy things.
~~~
umanwizard
People don't have to click on ads for them to be useful. You can't click on a
billboard.
------
jakeogh
Anyone looking for a DNS level blocking solution, please checkout
[https://github.com/jakeogh/dnsgate](https://github.com/jakeogh/dnsgate)
------
mrdrozdov
Publishers can blacklist ads, so unless they have tried to do so and failed
then this is a way to shift blame from themselves on to a system that has been
helping them all along.
------
some1else
We have a real duty to maintain engineering excellence, before all our tech is
spaghetti. What happens once the MegaBytes don't count anymore?
------
faebi
At least now I know why my old iPad 2 becomes unusable on certain websites.
Life without an adblocker is really not nice.
------
mtgx
Is this really such a hard problem for Google to solve or is it just turning a
blind eye to it?
Can't Google limit the size of the ads somehow? The number of requests per
page? Whether the ad remains a static image or it's a video? I find it hard to
believe it would be that hard for Google to implement restrictions around
this.
And advertisers wonder why the use of adblockers is skyrocketing. If Google
knows about this but isn't willing to fix it, then I worry it will allow
similar stuff to work within AMP pages as well, but the difference will be you
won't be able to block them unless you block the whole content as well. That
would mean advertisers have learned nothing from the rise of adblockers.
~~~
marcosdumay
Increasing Google's revenue every quarter is certainly enough of a challenge
without a policy of discarding clients.
Don't expect any solution from them. This is something end users (by ad-
blocking) or startups (by destroying the market) can do, but not big
companies.
------
wcummings
I can only speak as an implementer: fuck VPAID
------
Dunofrey
I still won't use ad blockers, I find them akin to stealing from content
creators, but I'm getting close.
~~~
krylon
After several incidents where malware was distributed through ads, I think it
is fair to call it self defence.
~~~
blahi
This is a valid argument only for people who disable javascript wholesale. The
lion's share of malware distribution is done by hacked sites where the
attacker configured to deliver a payload only in 5-10% of pageviews in order
to delay detection.
~~~
kbart
_This is a valid argument only for people who disable javascript wholesale "_
Not only. My older relatives happily click on "Congratulations, you won a
million!!!" ads and end up with yet another browser bar or worse. No
JavaScript required.
~~~
blahi
Parent talks about distribution of malware...
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
What's wrong with centcom.mil's DNS records? - anigbrowl
http://dnsviz.net/d/centcom.mil/dnssec/
======
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
A 1942 List of Hitler’s Lies (2016) - ericdanielski
https://slate.com/human-interest/2016/05/a-list-of-hitlers-lies-compiled-by-the-office-of-war-information-in-1942.html
======
abrichr
_> 1935_
_> May 21, Hitler speech to Reichstag:_
_> "Every war for the subjection or domination of an alien people sooner or
later weakens the victor internally and eventually brings about his defeat."_
Hitler predicted his own downfall. Fascinating!
------
stygiansonic
Perhaps one of the most ironic Nazi lies was the last planned Nuremberg Rally,
entitled the “Rally of Peace”. It was planned for September 1939 but was
cancelled when Germany invaded Poland:
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Rally#Rallies](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Rally#Rallies)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Faigy Mayer has died - pallian
https://twitter.com/search?q=%40FaigyM&src=typd&vertical=default
======
aaronchall
This HN post is how I found out. She had been coming to the Python meetup
group. We knew each other by name. I feel horrible. I know she was dealing
with a lot from her background, but I thought she was making it ok. How
horrible.
Please get help if you're depressed and thinking about killing yourself. It's
not worth it. [http://www.suicide.org/international-suicide-
hotlines.html](http://www.suicide.org/international-suicide-hotlines.html)
1-800-SUICIDE
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: How to deal with domain squatters/resellers? - halfmatthalfcat
I'm currently working on a project where the .com is owned by a domain reseller who has, in my opinion, an unrealistic valuation. I own the .io, so I'm not super concerned but it's frustrating to negotiate when I feel like the reseller doesn't have a good faith valuation of the name rooted in supply and demand.<p>How has HN negotiated successfully with a squatter or reseller to purchase the domain at a fairer market price that doesn't seem artificially inflated?
======
agitator
I'm on the other side of a negotiation, so I thought I'd share my perspective.
I bought a domain I was planning on using, but never ended up doing anything
with it. I know that the domain I own may not have a high value now, but I
believe it will be much more valuable in the future. It's an investment. A
prospective buyer needs to make a good offer, otherwise I would prefer just to
hold onto it. I'm perfectly happy holding onto it till I need it, or with some
luck, someone makes a decent offer.
Supply and demand are just two aspects of what determines a price both buyers
and sellers agree on. Just because no one else is hounding me for my domain,
doesn't mean I will settle for less. Among other things, there is a
prospective value that has an impact on price, much like overpriced shares of
companies that have promise, but aren't yet making a profit.
~~~
halfmatthalfcat
I guess what do you consider "settle for less" and how do you valuate your
domain? You have the original purchase price (or your annual renewal costs)
but it seems that a lot of resellers or squatters tend to artificially inflate
demand because .coms are the defacto TLD, yet no one is barking up their tree
(no demand).
~~~
agitator
Yeah, I admit the amount I would settle for isn't scientific. I'm also not in
the website squatting business. I just happen to have a couple of domains that
I haven't gotten around to using yet.
It's more so, that I paid for the domain and pay the yearly renewal, and
unless it's an offer that I would profit a bit over those total costs, I
wouldn't consider it because if I happen to need a good domain in the future,
it will cost me more to find one than to just hold onto the one I own and
continue paying renewals.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
The retaliation begins: Google profiles get Schmidt-faced - fraqed
http://news.cnet.com/8301-17852_3-57607238-71/the-retaliation-begins-google-profiles-get-schmidt-faced/?part=rss&tag=feed&subj=TechnicallyIncorrect
======
RexRollman
This is funny but I expect will ultimately prove fruitless. Advertising
companies like Facebook and Google are not going to back away from monetizing
the information they have been collecting from their willing users. In the
end, you have the option not to use their services if you don't care for the
terms.
~~~
x0x0
yup, newsflash to all the idiots in the world: google and facebook aren't
doing anything for free. blue_beetle is still right:
“If you are not paying for it, you’re not the customer; you’re the product
being sold.”
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Eric Cantor succumbs to tea party challenger Tuesday - opendais
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/virginia-politics/eric-cantor-faces-tea-party-challenge-tuesday/2014/06/10/17da5d20-f092-11e3-bf76-447a5df6411f_story.html
======
sp332
_a Cantor supporter shouted, “Get a job!”_
All you need to know about why Cantor lost.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Australia’s Offshore Cruelty - jamesk_au
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/24/opinion/australias-offshore-cruelty.html
======
brc
Australians will take lecture from the New York Times after The USA perfects
its record.
This article is full of bias-pushing, including the idea that what happens to
the people on Nauru is mysterious or that they are in limbo, or that they are
in some type of concentration camp.
The families on Nauru are free to leave and return to their country of origin
any time they choose. They are free to participate in the local community and
are not behind barbed wire.
The people who have self-harmed have been in contact with the legal industry
inside Australia that prospers from their continued presence. These refugee
advocates, in full knowledge of the state of the people in Nauru, don't seek
to help them but seek to play them as pawns in their deadly game.
The undeniable facts of the matter was that when Australia temporarily relaxed
the border protection laws, by the governments own statistics, at least 1,500
men, women and children drowned at sea. Most well known was when a timber
fishing boat smashed into rocks in front of news cameras as people drowned.
Since the reinstatement of the laws, the only people who have been harmed are
those that have self-harmed.
There is zero doubt that the laws save lives, and crucially, also provide the
ability for people to support genuine refugee settlement, such as the
processing of 12,000 Syrian refugees, more than the USA is doing, despite the
USA having 14x the population of Australia.
The laws have broad support amongst Australian voters, including this voter.
The advocates for open borders and a 'let them in' attitude are a small but
noisy minority.
Australia still maintains a sizeable immigrant intake every year, drawing on
people from around the world.
Frankly, the rest of the world can call me and fellow citizens as many names
as they like but border protection is an important task for a Federal
government, and I'm totally comfortable with it.
~~~
dibbsonline
They call them refugees but a big point of contention is often they migrate
half way across the world and pay for a people smuggler, when 25000 genuine
refugees were accepted that didn't try to push their way in. This leaves a
black mark against your name and takes away the chance from a genuine refugee
that couldn't afford to migrate and pay a smuggler to get asylum.
Can we take more? probably.
Should we let people that can afford to migrate to Indonesia and pay a people
smugger to jump the queue get preference? Hell no.
------
darkseas
I deplore the current policies that treat refugees as criminals. Dutton is
engaging in the dog-whistle politics that got the former Prime Minister Abbott
elected.
And during the current federal election campaign, the Labor opposition can't
be seen as soft compared to the government (and is even claiming some credit
for setting up elements of the "offshore processing").
But, I cannot condone restarting the people smuggling trade that puts so many
in danger at sea (also in the Med). The bottom line is that we should be
targeting the people smugglers, not the people.
~~~
ryanlol
It's worth noting that many, possibly even most, of these people are not
actually refugees.
"refugee" is a rather well defined legal term.
~~~
benologist
Pretty pointless distinction, the issue is their treatment by the Australian
government not the environment they're leaving.
~~~
ps4fanboy
It is an incredibly important distinction, those found not to be valid are
asked to return to their country of origin, how many of the people in these
centers have been processed and refuse to leave?
~~~
benologist
Their status is x or it's not. Regardless they must be afforded basic human
rights including legal representation that could see their status changed.
~~~
ps4fanboy
Legal representation isnt a human right.
[http://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-
rights/](http://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/)
Additionally I haven't seen anything to suggest that the government is denying
them from taking on their own legal council?
~~~
benologist
If you google "australia refugee camps" you will find allegations of rape,
abuse, substandard living conditions, lack of medical treatment, indefinite
detention and more, denounced by the UN who call it illegal, denounced by
Amnesty International who have accused the government of violating ratified
rights too. Three people have set themselves on fire to kill themselves,
that's not a thing that happens where people are treated humanely.
It's also been made illegal to talk about the conditions of the camp if you
work with the guests of the internment camps. That shouldn't even be possible,
it's just basic oversight 101.
It's a bit sad that's not a human right yet but that document is a work in
progress.
~~~
ps4fanboy
Citation needed, but I agree all those things are bad and have nothing to do
with the concept of offshore processing, I agree that things should be more
transparent but I do not think that would work in the favor of those who are
detractors of the scheme. It should also be noted that Saudi Arabia is on the
council for human rights with the UN, so I wouldn't hold their opinion very
high.
~~~
benologist
You can google this stuff very easily, it's been reported a lot over the last
couple of years.
I also posted a few links here:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11766158](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11766158)
Specific allegations of legal counsel being refused:
[http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/17/australia-
refug...](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/17/australia-refugees-
legal-sri-lanka)
[http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/31/legal-aid-
denie...](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/31/legal-aid-denied-
asylum-seekers-arrive-boat)
[http://www.theguardian.com/australia-
news/2015/oct/18/lawyer...](http://www.theguardian.com/australia-
news/2015/oct/18/lawyer-for-somali-refugee-raped-on-nauru-says-australia-
ignored-her-pleas)
[http://www.theguardian.com/australia-
news/2016/may/02/widow-...](http://www.theguardian.com/australia-
news/2016/may/02/widow-of-refugee-who-set-himself-alight-being-kept-in-hotel-
and-denied-a-lawyer)
~~~
ps4fanboy
Paid for legal counsel has been refused, you said its a human right to have
council not to have someone else pay for it.
------
cesther
Not just limited to refugees, see [http://www.smh.com.au/comment/australia-is-
a-bad-neighbour-a...](http://www.smh.com.au/comment/australia-is-a-bad-
neighbour-and-we-should-be-better-than-
this-20160501-goj6c9.html#ixzz47R1OMtGR)
The attitude and actions against East Timor are especially egregious.
------
benologist
There's been endless international accusations this program is illegal and
that human rights are being grossly violated. Hopefully there'll be a lovely
debate about it in the ICC one day.
[http://www.theguardian.com/law/2016/may/18/australias-
indefi...](http://www.theguardian.com/law/2016/may/18/australias-indefinite-
detention-of-refugees-illegal-un-rules)
[http://refugeeaction.org/information/how-australia-
violates-...](http://refugeeaction.org/information/how-australia-violates-
human-rights/)
[http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-02-24/australias-
immigration...](http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-02-24/australias-immigration-
policies-violating-international-law/7195432)
------
prawn
Interestingly, the company outsourced to run the two off-shore "processing
centres" was started by an immigrant from Italy.
------
schoen
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nauru_Regional_Processing_Cent...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nauru_Regional_Processing_Centre)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manus_Regional_Processing_Cent...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manus_Regional_Processing_Centre)
------
ps4fanboy
Because more liberal refugee policy is working so great for Europe right now.
I have never seen any one who is for refugees/illegal immigrants (queue
jumpers) explain how a better system would work, just that the current system
is unjust and broken?
~~~
jameshart
Refugees and illegal immigrants are _not the same_. Seeking asylum is a legal
path to immigration in most countries - because most countries are signatories
to international treaties which oblige them to accept requests for asylum by
legitimate refugees. It is perfectly logical and sensible to be in favor of a
humane asylum system and vehemently opposed to illegal immigration.
~~~
ps4fanboy
How do you tell the difference when everyone who comes by boat claims to be a
refugee? Lets not forget they catch planes to Indonesia and then board boats,
why not claim asylum in Indonesia?
Lets all get on the same page as well, this is how the United Nation defines
an asylum seeker:
The United Nations 1951 Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees and the
1967 Protocol Relating to the Status of Refugees guides national legislation
concerning political asylum. Under these agreements, a refugee (or for cases
where repressing base means has been applied directly or environmentally to
the defoulé refugee) is a person who is outside their own country's territory
(or place of habitual residence if stateless) owing to fear of persecution on
protected grounds. Protected grounds include race, caste, nationality,
religion, political opinions and membership and/or participation in any
particular social group or social activities.
Fleeing poor living conditions or a civil war, do not fall under this
description.
~~~
jameshart
Through a humane, fast, fair asylum request handling process. It is acceptable
for the answer to "Can I claim asylum in your country?" to be "No". If that is
the case, it's in your - and the asylum seeker's - interests to come to that
conclusion as _quickly as possible_.
~~~
ps4fanboy
What if that is what is happening and the people in these detention centers
just refuse to go home, I have never seen a single article sharing the stories
of these refugees showing how they are actually legitimate refugees, just
affectionate language aimed at making you feel sorry for them and angry at the
government.
~~~
jameshart
You've only seen "affectionate language aimed at making you feel sorry for
them and angry at the government"? Which internet have you been using?
~~~
ps4fanboy
I am talking about the news/journalism, the avenue I would expect to actually
drill into the facts, I feel like if there was a human story of a specific
group of people who were legitimate Asylum Seekers it would have been written
by now, the fact that it hasnt doesnt fill me with confidence.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Is it time to dump the iPhone and go Google? - cwan
http://www.techflash.com/seattle/2010/01/my_fling_with_a_droid_is_it_finally_time_to_dump_the_iphone.html
======
wglb
One of the better articles illustrating the differences between the iPhone and
the Droid.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Cyclists Break Far Fewer Road Rules Than Motorists, Finds New Video Study - lnguyen
https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2019/05/10/cyclists-break-far-fewer-road-rules-than-motorists-finds-new-video-study/
======
enjoyyourlife
This is probably due to speed limits:
"Separate studies by the Danish Road Directorate found that two-thirds of
motorists routinely flout the law, with breaking local speed limits being the
most common offense."
------
remotecool
The amount isn't important. The types of road rules broken is what matters.
------
masonic
It's a useless stat when not adjusted _per km /mile driven_
~~~
Arnt
Why?
This is a video study of a set of traffic lights, it counts violations at
those crossings. Why does the distance driven to/from/after/before/elsewhere
count, what difference might that make? How might that from elsewhere interact
with the the data at the video sites?
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Show HN: Social Crawlytics API - ysekand
https://socialcrawlytics.com/docs/api
======
ysekand
So you know, the API was designed to be simple and easy to get started with.
We try to accommodate the most used methods, though if there's something you
feel should be added, please let us know!
Our API is stateless, meaning there's no sessions or cookies to manage, you
just need to supply your account token and key with each API request you make.
Happy hacking!
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
How Satya Nadella revived Microsoft - ghosh
http://www.afr.com/brand/boss/how-satya-nadella-revived-microsoft-in-just-three-years-20161220-gtf1i7?&utm_source=social&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=nc&eid=socialn:twi-14omn0055-optim-nnn:nonpaid-27/06/2014-social_traffic-all-organicpost-nnn-afr-o&campaign_code=nocode&promote_channel=social_twitter
======
d--b
People at Microsoft said the wind of change was blowing long before Nadella
took the job. They timed the announcement of Nadella to coincide with
deliveries of new products / open platforms. The whole thing was to change the
image of Microsoft: New products + new face = new Microsoft.
It's not like Nadella fired every one and started afresh.
~~~
jonknee
> It's not like Nadella fired every one and started afresh.
He announced huge layoffs (18,000 people) almost as soon as he took over. A
lot of Nokia people, but also 5,500 people not related to mobile and 1,400 of
them at HQ. A year later he made another huge cut of 7,800 people.
~~~
simonh
More evidence for d--b's point. Firing 18k people at Microsoft's scale isn't
even close to burning it down and starting from scratch. It's also not
something a newly minted CEO would be able to get past the board on such short
notice. It must have been planned in advance. Whatever you say about Balmer,
someone at MSFT knew how to flawlessly execute a masterful transition plan. I
though Apple did a good job, but MSFT nailed it.
~~~
piaste
> Firing 18k people at Microsoft's scale isn't even close to burning it down
> and starting from scratch.
Eh... According to Wikipedia, MS had 114k employees total as of mid-2016.
Given that, I'd say a 18k layoff definitely counts as a big deal.
~~~
mbesto
> It's not like Nadella fired _every one_ and started afresh.
~~~
acchow
HN is frustratingly pedantic sometimes.
"It's not like Nadella fired every one and started afresh." is a
colloquialism. d--b was basically saying "it's not like Nadella did a major
overhaul.
With which jonknee disagrees, citing a layoff of 18,000. To which simonh
claims is not a major overhaul since Microsoft is nebulously enormous. To
which piaste disagrees, as 18k was actually 15.7% of the company.
You can all continue to debate whether or not 15.7% is a major overhaul,
whether the actual people they fired were significant, etc...
But you quoting a colloquialism and asking us all to take it literally is not
helpful to the discussion, or the culture of HN.
~~~
mbesto
> HN is frustratingly pedantic sometimes.
I don't disagree, but the parent was being just as pedantic as I was. Perhaps
my snark was an attempt to end the petty discussion (apparently, improperly
so). Read these two statements in the context of the discussion:
> burning it down and starting from scratch.
> started afresh
15.7% _is_ a major overhaul, but IMO in no way insinuates "burning something
down" or "starting afresh". Do you think either of those statements is
consistent with a 15% cut in workforce?
PS - 12,500 of those 18,000 came from Nokia[0].
> _with 12,500 of those coming out of the streamlining of Microsoft’s acquired
> Nokia assets._
[0] - [https://techcrunch.com/2014/07/17/microsoft-to-cut-
workforce...](https://techcrunch.com/2014/07/17/microsoft-to-cut-workforce-
by-18000-this-year-moving-now-to-cut-first-13000/)
------
yaseer
Although I think Nadella has made some good changes to company culture,
there's a lot more variables that influence a company's performance than the
CEO, just as there's a lot more variables that influence a country's Economic
performance than a ruling party.
The piece does that all-too-common simplification of providing a single cause
to explain the fluctuation is MSFT's fortunes, a form of cognitive bias I
believe. We like simple stories for complex phenomena.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_the_single_cause](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_the_single_cause)
~~~
rev_null
What if the lesson is not that Nadella is a great CEO, but that Ballmer was
actually terrible?
~~~
exabrial
Agree, 100%... One more variable I think it's also a combination of timing
too. For example: Tim Cook is busy destroying Apple's product lineup forcing a
lot of people to reconsider Microsoft.
~~~
marricks
Comments like this are a dime a dozen on Reddit and Hacker News but Apple is
doing fine.
Higher MacBook Pro sales, highest ever iPhone sales. Services doing well...
I'd say their biggest problem is MBP pricing is high and a stagnate desktop
line.
MBP pricing is typical for a redesign, not even high if you include inflation.
They'll likely go down with time as they have in the past.
And desktops... Well hopefully there's something this year...
~~~
aklemm
But they're stuck with two distinct platforms: iOS (touch) and macOS (non-
touch) while the hardware the world wants is not so binary. Basically, that we
can't touch the screens of the high cost workstations and laptops where we do
our creative work, kind of brings down the whole ecosystem.
~~~
slrz
I consider this to be one of their better decisions. With workstation and
laptops, you already have higher-precision input devices available that also
are less prone to causing fatigue.
For some specialty application I can see the usefulness of digitizer pen input
like some Thinkpad X series models (e.g. X220T). But fat-finger touch? What
for?
~~~
aklemm
For big movements (getting a window out of the way, viewing media, etc.),
anything collaborative, and for anytime the machine is being used in an
awkward position (so when not seated comfortably focused on inputting).
~~~
sedachv
Who is advocating for this besides you? Current Apple displays are some of the
worst computer displays ever when it comes to fingerprints and grime - they
would have to get rid of glass. I have been using an X60 for about five years
and have literally used the stylus twice, just to see that it works. My wife
is a commercial artist and uses Wacom tablets. If she had wanted a drawable
display she would have found some way to trick me into paying for a Cintiq by
now. The collaborative thing is a non-market - the last time I used a digital
whiteboard was in 2006.
I can see a giant tablet with a desktop stand and keyboard becoming the new PC
as a more plausible scenario than the iMac/OS X getting a touch UI.
~~~
aklemm
My apologies. I wasn't aware of you and your wife and that you guys had this
all figured out.
------
mark_l_watson
I really like the direction Microsoft is going in, especially Surface devices,
the very nice Office 355 service, and Azure. The one area where I think they
have failed horribly is in the phone market.
The lack of having a solid phone that interacts with their other devices, and
has a rich app/developer ecosystem cost them my business recently:
I am in my 60s, and comfortably semi-retired. After decades of being a Linux-
as-much-as-possible enthusiast, I now want my interaction with my devices to
be as easy and workable as possible. The time I still spend writing and
software development should be as efficient as possible, in the deep work
sense I want to spend just a few hours a day producing things hopefully useful
to society, as effectively as possible.
Recently I spent a month evaluation of staying with Apple or getting a Surface
Pro. I stuck with getting a new MacBook and with my iPad Pro because of the
availability of the iPhone (I am still on Android, but will switch soon), with
nothing comproble from Microsoft.
Whatever it takes, I think Microsoft should get back in the phone business
with a winning product.
~~~
ocdtrekkie
They're pretty aware of this. But breaking a duopoly like this requires more
than just a "great phone". Microsoft has had and does have "great phones", but
without the app ecosystem to back them, it doesn't matter that the phones are
great.
The Windows Phone might run faster, have a longer battery life, and just work
better than the comparable Android flagship, but since you can get freaking
Pokémon GO on the Android, people will buy the latter.
Microsoft is basically waiting for a chance at a paradigm shift in what it
means to have a smartphone, so that they can release something you can get
nowhere else. In the meantime, they're kinda just treading water and keeping
their mobile OS workable and modern.
~~~
ddito
I think it's more that the port of Windows to phones was so broken that they
saw that there is no way they will get the platform into a stable state in the
next year. It..just..so..broken.
I had a lumia 950 and with the crashes, lack of apps and UX horror I bought a
OnePlus after 2 months amd never regreted it.
I heard that Windows Phone 7 was nice and everything went downhill with WP8
but I wouldnt know personally
~~~
samuell
WP10 is great these days. Switched from Android a few months back, to a Lumia
650, and will never go back to the bloated, resource heavy battery eater which
is Android.
Fewer apps, turns out to be a pro, I've found. I'm realizing how much less
distracted I am without every app and its dog installed. Also I'm realizing
how well most things work via the web anyway (such as youtube), without
requiring me to be logged in and sending rich tracking data to Google all the
time.
------
jernfrost
Refreshing to see somebody who is not an asshole succeed. Too many people seem
to have concluded that success can only be achieved by being some variation of
asshole whether it is Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, Steve Balmer or Larry Ellison.
Mind you I am a huge fan of Steve Jobs, despite the fact that I think he also
was kind of an asshole. People are complicated I don't think Steve succeeded
because he was an asshole but due to the other qualities he had not related to
being an asshole.
And people of course change. Bill Gates seems like a much nicer man today than
he was when he ran Microsoft. I guess much the same happened with Steve Jobs.
He was a better person in his older years than in his younger.
~~~
v3gas
How is (or was?) Bill Gates an asshole?
~~~
gozur88
You need to read the "fuck counter" story. I woldn't work for someone like
this:
>"Bill doesn’t really want to review your spec, he just wants to make sure
you’ve got it under control. His standard M.O. is to ask harder and harder
questions until you admit that you don’t know, and then he can yell at you for
being unprepared."
[https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2006/06/16/my-first-billg-
rev...](https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2006/06/16/my-first-billg-review/)
~~~
paulddraper
This hardly makes Bill Gates look like an asshole
> He had my spec in his hand!
> I noticed that there were comments in the margins of my spec. He had read
> the first page!
> He had read the first page of my spec and written little notes in the
> margin!
> Considering that we only got him the spec about 24 hours earlier, he must
> have read it the night before.
> He was asking questions. I couldn’t stop noticing that he was flipping
> through the spec and THERE WERE NOTES IN ALL THE MARGINS. ON EVERY PAGE OF
> THE SPEC. HE HAD READ THE WHOLE GODDAMNED THING AND WRITTEN NOTES IN THE
> MARGINS.
> He Read The Whole Thing! [OMG SQUEEE!]
I've talked to people who met Bill in person and by all accounts be was smart,
driven, pretty nerdy, and reasonable.
------
seunosewa
Somehow, they managed to give Satya the credit for things that, by their own
admission, started under his predecessor, such as Office for iPad, the One
Microsoft initiative, and the rebound in Microsoft's stock price. They didn't
let the facts get in the way of their heartwarming story.
~~~
3adawi
this is the case for most articles about 'reformers', always selling a story
rather than the truth
~~~
scholia
People like stories. They don't like details. This is why we have HN ;-)
------
johnnycarcin
I can't speak to the product side because up until a year ago I hardly used
any MSFT products but I can say that the culture that has been brought by
Satya, and likely his reports, is one of the reasons I joined MSFT after being
a longtime hater.
When I was approached to come work for MSFT I said "no" right away. The person
recruiting me said "just listen to our pitch and then you can say 'no' if you
want". After hearing Satya talk about where he wants the company to go and
what it'll take to get there I had a 180 degree switch on how I felt about
MSFT. I talked with some other old-timers who were there to see if things
really had changed and they all told me that it was a slow progression but
things were certainly changing for the better.
Now it's totally possible that they all are just good at selling to people but
it was enough to get me to join and 95% of the time I'm glad I did.
~~~
ditados
You aren't at a subsidiary, obviously. As the tide shifts to pushing Azure,
the sales people are going ballistic and circle customers like sharks, with
insane targets.
I joined a short while ago and deeply regret it, since all we do is sales.
Even OSS is treated as a pure sales play.
~~~
johnnycarcin
I actually think we are in the same roles (CSA) :).
I have seen the same thing you are talking about and it is certainly one of
the shitty parts of the job. Luckily I've done enough with the sales group
around me that they are starting to understand that you don't sell Azure like
you would O365 or whatever. There are still days where I walk away thinking
that I must be on a different planet but the time I get to spend working with
customers and building cool shit makes up for all of the bs.
------
intended
>Nadella, meanwhile, is keen to stress that the goodwill and positive
headlines the company is receiving is only of temporary importance. The main
responsibility is ensuring Microsoft remains on the right path in the long-
term.
Key point. I'm very happy with Microsoft, and have been since they first
announced the surface line and the various other moves they've made to make a
single OS.
But They've crossed the threshold of the "holy crap? MSFT did that?" And they
are in the "well, this needs to work a whole lot better for me to stick
around."
The fact that the CEO is aware of this already is a good sign. Looking forward
to the surface event this year.
------
camdenlock
Having spent my youth childishly ranting against the evils of M$, and now
coming to terms with the fact that I sincerely use VS Code because it's great,
I can't shake the frequent uncanny feeling that I'm stuck in an episode of
Sliders.
~~~
ino
DOS 6.22 + WIN 3.11 were great.
Windows 7 was great.
Windows 10 is not. Having a good cross platform code editor surely isn't going
to make me use Windows 10.
~~~
bsaul
Dos + win 3.11 was an absolute crap. Had a mac at the time and i couldn't
understand how people could cope with that horror. Anything, from atari to
amiga to mac was obviously better. Windows started to be usable starting
windows 95. Before that, it was mainly a hack.
~~~
scholia
Windows 3.x was wonderful if you had DOS, which was almost everyone did. DOS,
WordStar (or Word Perfect) and Lotus 1-2-3.
It was really cheap [1], and it ran on top of DOS, so you didn't lose anything
you already had. The big advantage was access to a GUI and new graphical
applications. If you didn't like it, you didn't have to run it, but it was
always more useful than the old-style character-based DOS front-ends.
The alternatives to Windows 3.x involved paying up to 20x more for a different
operating system, installing it, and possibly losing what you already had, OR
dumping your whole expensive system and buying another expensive system,
buying expensive new apps, and relearning everything.
Worse, you'd be buying another expensive system while losing access to Lotus
1-2-3 (on which your commercial life probably depended).
The real alternatives weren't the 68000-based Amiga/Atari/Mac etc, they were
DesQview and DR GEM.
Not sure why DesQview failed. However, Apple did Microsoft a huge favor by
suing Digital Research and effectively killing GEM (except on the Atari ST).
[1] From my faulty memory, it was something like $40 when business
applications cost $200 to $600. OS/2 cost around $500 and Sun was charging
$950 for Unix.
~~~
yuhong
This is a good time to mention the OS/2 2.0 fiasco, which went so badly it is
one of my favorite topics.
~~~
scholia
Mine too ;-)
------
bcg1
They credit Nadella with increasing the stock price... but MSFT performance is
basically the same as the overall NASDAQ composite (of course I'm sure MSFT
itself is a large portion of that index) as well as the larger S&P 500 index.
[http://stockcharts.com/freecharts/perf.php?$COMPQ,MSFT,$SPX&...](http://stockcharts.com/freecharts/perf.php?$COMPQ,MSFT,$SPX&n=4556&O=011000)
~~~
awa
you dont see it behind by 30+% in 2013 to nasdaq and now meeting it to equal
now.
See:
[http://stockcharts.com/freecharts/perf.php?$COMPQ,MSFT,$SPX&...](http://stockcharts.com/freecharts/perf.php?$COMPQ,MSFT,$SPX&n=3006&O=011000)
.
------
awinder
I think Microsoft has done a great job of transforming to being very brand-
conscious and these stories are both a recognition of that from the press, and
a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy (they talk about how different they are,
the press does, then they point to the press and dress up their UX, it's very
self-feeding in a way). That said -- I can't say I've experienced great
technical changes in the products from microsoft that I do use, at least yet.
Windows 10 is still windows underneath, and I've run into some real rough
patches on windows 10 on my tower setup. Xbox controllers are still breaking
down after several months. Their Cloud offering just blows my mind in a bad
way in almost every interaction I've had the displeasure of experiencing.
So I read articles like this and look at the rebranding and really have a hard
time deciding whether I want to point to these things as at least having a
good direction, and showing that they understand that they need to care about
these things. But then I'm dismayed at the execution. Does anyone else have
the same thing going on?
------
starik36
I am not sure how he "revived" Microsoft.
1\. They've completely dropped the Phone market under him. As in gave up.
2\. They are not in the personal assistant game at all. Alexa & Google have
that market all to themselves.
3\. The educational market is steadily switching to Chromebooks. The new
generation of kids will likely not even know how to use MS Office.
4\. On the back end, they've made .NET work on Mac and Linux. This is great
for me, since I don't have to worry about Windows Server licenses, but doesn't
this eat into their large cash cow?
5\. SQL Server - the other cash cow, is great, but free alternatives will
start affecting the bottom line.
6\. Windows 10 rollout stalled very much short of their stated goal of being
on 1 billion devices.
~~~
hunterwerlla
1\. The phone line that was losing a ton of money
2\. This is being worked on, there is cortana for cars, pc's and phones, so it
would make sense for it to expand to even more devices in the future.
3\. This is the point of windows 10 cloud, which recently leaked.
4\. Windows is really not the cash cow of Microsoft, getting more people into
the ecosystem is better for buisiness.
5\. Free alternatives have existed forever, alternatives that you could argue
are the same or better, recently SQL Server was ported to linux which actually
should shore up its market share, and even possibly increase it.
6\. True but does this actually matter that much?
~~~
starik36
You are kind of proving my point that Microsoft, in fact, was not "revived" by
Nadella.
2\. Maybe it is being worked on and maybe it'll even be great. The problem is
that people don't replace personal assistants every 2 years. They lost the
first mover advantage.
4\. Windows for enterprises, specifically server versions are cash cows. I
fail to see the value (to Microsoft) of a developer getting into the .NET
ecosystem if they intend to run your code on Linux.
5\. It's true that free alternatives have always been around. But now, they
are reasonably good. And more importantly, good enough.
6\. Yes, it does. It's actually one of the few places where they could
monetize people getting into their ecosystem.
------
anjc
Ehh. All the credit being given to Nadella are initiatives that Ballmer not
only started, but has to push against the will of the board to pursue.
I had major hope for Microsoft in the last few years, and I'm starting to see
Nadella's MS slowly unravelling all of the good progress. I just can not
believe that Windows Phone adoption got as high as 15% in Europe and then
under Nadella they immediately dropped it like it was dirt. The hardware and
software was superior in every way to every alternative, and this deprecation
has made many of their other successful manoeuvres pointless.
It's mindboggling to me that they're crediting Nadella with Surface and
Hololens, in particular.
~~~
ghaff
Leaders generally get an outsized share of blame and an outsized share of
credit for results that become apparent on their watch. I agree that Microsoft
didn't suddenly turn 180 degrees the day Nadella took charge.
As for the phone though? Microsoft lost that one a long time ago. They
can/should continue to milk other client cash cows and continue with other
businesses like Xbox that are peripheral but they're well-established in. But
phone would require an all-in push and it's hard to see how that would make
sense for Microsoft as a distant #3.
Focusing on Azure doesn't preclude them doing something like that of course;
Microsoft's a big company. But I can't fault them from deciding that they
largely missed mobile and moving on. (I'm unconvinced Surface and Hololens
will amount to anything significant either but I don't really see those as a
focus.)
~~~
anjc
Oh Phones are gone. Finito. But they weren't a few years ago. They were taking
a sharp incline with the 9xx range of Lumias in Europe, and they only declined
when Microsoft whipped all Lumias from stores and released nothing for a year,
the 950 range, which they stopped supporting before they'd even stopped
selling it. W10M is effectively still in beta and there are no phones to use
it now.
But in the meantime they'd been pushing Continuum, W10/Phone integration, UWP,
Xbox/Phone integration and so on. So removing phones tarnished a large chunk
of their product line imo. Same for the Band. There's no competitor to it,
still, and it's also gone. Same for Kinect. Same for Onedrive subscriptions,
etc etc.
This is what worries me about Nadella's MS and it's the same thing that
worries me about Cook's Apple...treating the product line like commodities
without acknowledging the importance of the ecosystem.
Having said that, as you say, they're a big company. My perspective is solely
from that of a devices user.
~~~
pjmlp
> Oh Phones are gone. Finito.
They are doing ok with hybrid tablets though. Here in Germany it started to be
more common to see hybrid tablets with W10 than Android on the retail stores.
So I still have some (tiny) hope of them succeeding with phablets with SIM
card on them.
In any case, I am more willing to just adopt one of my Lumias when my S3 dies,
than sponsoring OEMs that never update their devices.
~~~
ghaff
People I know with Surface Pros really like them. I'd consider one myself
except that
\- They're too pricey for a casual "I'll give it a try"
\- I don't otherwise use Microsoft anything any longer
\- For travel, I'm pretty much sold on Chromebooks which are easier to type on
with no table and just my lap.
But arguably Microsoft has done a better job of bringing together laptops and
tablets for creation of typical business content than anyone.
~~~
pjmlp
Here in Europe I see Surfaces at every retail store, while Chromebooks tend to
only be available online, sometimes I do spot one on the stores.
However I don't like them, personally I think they could have been a better
proposal if Google had decided to leverage Dart, and offer a Smalltalk
environment on them. Even if that required some kind of developer mode.
As it is, my trusty Eee PC 1215B is what I use for travelling.
~~~
ghaff
I suspect a lot more marketing/co-marketing dollars go into the Surface from
Microsoft than go into Chromebooks from Google and the device manufacturers.
My sense is that education is the only market where Chromebooks have been
pushed at all aggressively. Like many things Google does, it's not clear that
they have a really fleshed out strategy for the Chromebook.
They're also not really targeted for doing local development though people do
use them in various somewhat unnatural ways.
Although they can't do everything I can do on my MacBook, they're often
suitable for my needs when traveling and I appreciate the small size of the
Asus Flip.
~~~
scholia
The Chromebook is pretty much failing outside the US education market, where
there were non-technical reasons behind its success. Also, schools don't buy
them retail.
The OEM trend is to design for Windows 10 and then offer a version of the same
hardware as a Chromebook. This is a tough sale as people expect Chromebooks to
be cheaper but they are not.
[They are not cheaper for two reasons. (1) OEMs pay very little for Windows 10
and they get a lot of that back by bundling crapware. (2) The Chromebook adds
costs in hardware qualification and drivers etc, plus stockkeeping,
distribution and advertising costs. The advertising cost is significant
because Microsoft provides 'advertising support' for ads that promote Windows,
but not Chromebooks.]
EDIT
Chromebooks were cheaper, back in the days when Windows laptops had 4GB of RAM
and hard drives. Today, cheap Windows laptops have 2GB of RAM and 32GB or 64GB
eMMC cards, so the Chromebook's price advantage has gone or even been
reversed.
In any case, schools can easily set up Windows machines so that kids can ONLY
run a browser and nothing else. See Windows 10 Education AppLocker.
------
igravious
Well, if that isn't that a comically spooky infographic:
[https://data.afr.com/2017/01jan/microsoft-ceo-
hype/index.htm...](https://data.afr.com/2017/01jan/microsoft-ceo-
hype/index.html?initialWidth=620&childId=microsoft)
~~~
nmeofthestate
Yeah, I'm a bit confused - it seems like MS has just continued to do what they
had already started doing before Nadella took over. For example, their cloud
computing offering was released in 2010.
~~~
GCA10
But bear in mind that anyone can have a cloud-computing initiative. Hewlett
Packard Enterprises has one. Executing well and building momentum in the face
of AWS is the hard part. If Microsoft is making headway, that's interesting.
------
kermittd
Is everyone a cynic online?
~~~
simplehuman
I have a great theory here. If you agree entirely mostly with the article,
there is nothing to comment. Or you have to write something boring. But if you
want to comment and get karma, you have to write something spicy. And thus the
comments are all cynical and contrarian.
------
woofdogwoof
It really helps when you have a monopoly, for both operating systems and
Office applications, and more cash than most countries in the world.
------
z0d
Shocked to see Windows 10 being depicted as an advancement in some of the
comments along with that office 365 service. Yeah the Halcyon days of PC ate
definitely gone by looking at these cringrworthy points.
M$ clearly have made their point with continuous eternal Beta program and
sheeple insider ring, UWP and WDDM2.0, Gimmicky stuff cough _DX12_ _gamemode_
cough.
Destroyed the PC, Mr Nadella should be praised for all this...
------
Entangled
Revived?
I haven't touched a ms product in over a decade. And by god I won't until the
end of my miserable days in this world.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Faust: Stream Processing for Python - ericliuche
https://github.com/robinhood/faust
======
simonw
> Faust is extremely easy to use [...] Faust only requires Kafka, the rest is
> just Python
Kafka is still a pretty chunky dependency.
Have you thought about getting this to work with the new streams stuff in
Redis? [https://brandur.org/redis-streams](https://brandur.org/redis-streams)
Redis is SO MUCH less hassle to get running (in both dev and production) than
Kafka.
~~~
asksol
My name is Ask and I'm the co-creator of this project, along with Vineet.
Yes, we're definitely interested in supporting Redis Streams!
Faust is designed to support different brokers, but Kafka is the only
implementation as of now.
~~~
simonw
Well I love Celery, so I'm even more excited to learn more about Faust now :)
~~~
welder
If you liked Celery 3.x but don't like all the bugs in Celery 4.x, check out
these alternative Python task queues:
[https://github.com/closeio/tasktiger](https://github.com/closeio/tasktiger)
(supports subqueues to prevent users bottlenecking each other)
[https://github.com/Bogdanp/dramatiq](https://github.com/Bogdanp/dramatiq)
(high message throughput)
~~~
asksol
In Faust we've had the ability to take a very different approach towards
quality control. We have a cloud integration testing setup, that actually runs
a series of Faust apps in production. We do chaos testing: randomly
terminating workers, randomly blocking network to Kafka, and much more. All
the while monitoring the health of the apps, and the consistency of the
results that they produce.
If you have a Faust app that depends on a particular feature we strongly
suggest you submit it as an integration test for us to run.
Hopefully some day Celery will be able to take the same approach, but running
cloud servers cost money that the project does not have.
------
ryanworl
I don’t see any discussion of idempotent processing or the Kafka transactions
feature in the documentation, and I also see a mention of acking unprocessed
messages in the form of acking if an exception is thrown in the application.
These seem like pretty important details to acknowledge up front.
Are there plans to support idempotent processing, or is this already
implemented and I just missed it?
The developer facing API looks very nice!
~~~
dleclere
It's hard to say, but Kafka provides a number of important predicates for
idempotent processing out of the box for consumers and producers. Given that
stream-style-apps are just a series of consumers and producers linked
together, there is good reason to believe this would offer idempotent
processing.
~~~
vineetgoel1992
Hi, thanks for the comments. My name is Vineet and I am a co-creator of this
project along with Ask.
We do plan on adding support for Kafka exactly once semantics to Faust. As
@dleclere pointed out, streaming apps are simply a topology of consumers and
producers. We will be adding this as soon as the underlying kafka clients add
support for exactly once semantics.
------
tern
"Faust" is a name-collision with another piece of software that does (audio)
stream processing: [http://faust.grame.fr/](http://faust.grame.fr/).
~~~
xapata
It's also a name collision with a whole bunch of other things. Pretty soon
we'll need some namespaces to help distinguish these things, or maybe just
context.
~~~
stock_toaster
> Pretty soon we'll need some namespaces to help distinguish these things, or
> maybe just context
Quite the /faustian/ bargain you propose...
~~~
kranner
What is the tradeoff/downside to namespaces?
Other than their being cumbersome, but that is upfront, so I don't see the
Faustian-ness there.
~~~
p1necone
The better the comedic payoff, the flimsier the alignment with reality needs
to be.
As a corollary though - the stronger the alignment with reality, the better
the comedic payoff - all other things being equal.
------
jsmeaton
How does Faust work with Django? There’s a mention on needing gevent or
eventlet to bridge, but nothing about how you’d integrate the two.
I’m assuming the entrypoint would need a django.setup, and then you’d import
the modules that had the Faust tasks? A how-to in the docs would be very
useful.
I see in one of the other comments about acking due to an exception. This is
one of the major issues with celery IMO (at least before version 4 before the
new setting was added). I’d hope that exception acking would at least be
configurable.
~~~
asksol
There's an examples/django project in the distribution. I think they removed
the gevent bridge from PyPI for some reason, but you can still use the
eventlet one. Gevent is production quality and the concept of bridging them is
sound, so hope someone will work on it.
------
nemothekid
The docs link doesn't seem to be live yet:
[http://docs.fauststream.com/en/latest/introduction.html](http://docs.fauststream.com/en/latest/introduction.html)
One question I had is how Robinhood might be doing message passing and
persistence. For example, I might have a stream, that creates more messages
that needs to processed, and then eventually I would want to persist the
"Table" to an actual datastore.
~~~
asksol
My name is Ask and I am one of the co-creators along with Vineet.
Thanks for pointing this out. Fixed the links. You can also find the docs
here:
[http://faust.readthedocs.io/en/latest/](http://faust.readthedocs.io/en/latest/)
Faust uses Kafka for message passing. The new messages you create can be
pushed to a new topic and you could have another agent consuming from this new
topic. Check out the word count example here:
[https://github.com/robinhood/faust/blob/9fc9af9f213b75159a54...](https://github.com/robinhood/faust/blob/9fc9af9f213b75159a5413c831fe75eebebbbc51/examples/word_count.py)
Also note that the Table is persisted in a log compacted Kafka topic. This
means, we are able to recover the state of the table in the case of a failure.
However, you can always write to any other datastore while processing a stream
within an agent. We do have some services that process streams and storing
state in Redis and Postgres.
~~~
nemothekid
What I'm thinking of is flushing the table to a secondary storage so that
other services can query that data.
I think Storm/Flink have the concept of a "tick tuple", a message that comes
every n-seconds to tell the worker to flush the table to some other store.
I've been looking over the project, and I'm not sure how I would do this in
Faust yet, as far as I understand the "Table" is partitioned, so you'd have to
send a tick to every worker.
Very interesting project!
~~~
asksol
Faust can serve the data over HTTP/websockets and other transports, so you can
query it directly!
~~~
vineetgoel1992
In addition to that you can have an arbitrary method run at an interval using
the app.timer decorator. You can use this to flush every n seconds. You could
also use stream.take to read batches of messages (or wait t seconds, whichever
happens first) and write to an external source.
------
ludwigvan
How does compare with Celery, given the author of both libraries is the same?
Is it an apple and oranges comparison? When would one use this instead of
Celery?
Found the following for those curious:
[http://faust.readthedocs.io/en/latest/playbooks/vscelery.htm...](http://faust.readthedocs.io/en/latest/playbooks/vscelery.htmlt)
~~~
vvatsa
Typo in link,
[http://faust.readthedocs.io/en/latest/playbooks/vscelery.htm...](http://faust.readthedocs.io/en/latest/playbooks/vscelery.html)
~~~
randlet
I guess the libraries ultimately serve different purposes but the Celery
example is 100 times more approachable than the Faust example.
~~~
asksol
Yes, they do serve different purposes but they also share similarities. You
could easily write a task queue on top of Faust.
It's important to remember that users had difficulty understanding the
concepts behind Celery as well, perhaps it's more approachable now that you're
used to it.
Using an asynchronous iterator for processing events enables us to maintain
state. It's no longer just a callback that handles a single event, you could
do things like "read 10 events at a time", or "wait for events on two separate
topics and join them".
------
wenc
I was kinda wondering about the performance of a streaming lib written in
Python, but from the README it looks like they support high-performance
dependencies like uvloop, RocksDB and C extensions. And it's used in
production at Robinhood. This could have been written in Go, but it was
written in Python. Very interesting.
~~~
nemothekid
In my experience, if performance is an absolute need, there are plenty of
other frameworks out there. Apache Flink and Apache Apex come to mind, even
though they are JVM.
Whats interesting about the Python angle is I've noticed there are data
science teams who would want to manage streams in production, however there
tends to be a heavy dependency on python and its ecosystem (numpy, scipy,
tensorflow).
------
crgwbr
Looks similar to the project my team uses for Kafka / Kinesis stream
processing in Python / Django projects: [https://gitlab.com/thelabnyc/django-
logpipe](https://gitlab.com/thelabnyc/django-logpipe)
------
dinedal
Docs seem to be down?
[http://docs.fauststream.com/en/latest/playbooks/quickstart.h...](http://docs.fauststream.com/en/latest/playbooks/quickstart.html)
~~~
ashesha20
Seems to be working for me:
[http://faust.readthedocs.io/en/latest/](http://faust.readthedocs.io/en/latest/)
~~~
timothylaurent
The link is wrong... make a PR!
------
agigao
Well, a bit off-topic but all this naming chaos has gone way too far.
Kafka/Faust and so on and so on. I found it really disturbing the way we treat
and abuse such meaningful heritage.
~~~
ds0
I wouldn't worry about it too much. The vast difference in contexts (literary
circles, high school classrooms VS. HN comment pages, Slack chatrooms,
developer podcasts) ensures there isn't any confusion. If anything, the choice
of name speaks to the importance of its source.
------
peterwwillis
> Tables are stored locally on each machine using a superfast embedded
> database written in C++, called RocksDB.
I haven't used RocksDB. Does being a LevelDB fork give it similar corruption
issues?
~~~
vineetgoel1992
We have been using RocksDB for some time and it works fairly well. While we
haven't seen any corruption yet, as you correctly pointed out, it is
definitely a possibility.
We use RocksDB only as a cache and use log-compacted kafka topics as the
source of truth. In the case of RocksDB corruption, we can simply delete the
local rocksdb cache and the faust app should recover (and rebuild the rocksdb
state) from the log compacted Kafka topic.
------
kyloon
Faust looks really cool with its native Python implementation. How does this
compared with Apache Beam or Google's Dataflow as they have recently rolled
out their Python SDK?
~~~
asksol
Faust is a library that you can import into your Python program, and all it
requires is Kafka. Most other stream processing systems require additional
infrastructure. Kafka Streams has similar goals, but Faust additionally
enables you to use Python libraries and perform async I/O operations while
processing the stream.
------
timothylaurent
Do you have any thoughts for creating Models from Avro schemas?
~~~
asksol
We had support for it initially, but we ended up not using the schema registry
server. We want to add support for this back in if it provides value.
------
rilut
Is there something like this for node.js/typescript?
~~~
speeq
[https://nsq.io](https://nsq.io)
------
wskinner
While the page does mention alternatives (Flink, Storm, Samza, Spark
Streaming) it does not compare Faust to those alternatives. And it does not
answer the most important question for a prospective user: why would I use
this instead?
Ex ante Python seems like a poor choice for a large distributed system where
network and CPU efficiency are important. Existing solutions have good
performance, are easy to use, and thanks to broad adoption and community
support, are very well maintained.
~~~
wenc
> why would I use this instead?
I can't speak for the developer, but a few things stood out to me:
1) It's Python. Which means there's no impedance mismatch in using
numerical/data science libraries like Numpy and the like. For data engineers
trying to productionize data science workloads, this is quite compelling -- no
need to throw away all of the Python code written by data scientists. This
also lowers the barrier to entry for streaming code.
2) I had the same reservations about CPU efficiency, but it looks like they're
using best-of-class libraries (RocksDB is C++, uvloop is C/Cython, etc.). I
was at a PyCon talk where the speaker demo'ed Dask (a distributed computation
system similar to Spark) running on Kubernetes and it was very impressive.
Scalability didn't seem to be an issue. Dask actually outperformed Spark in
some instances.
I wonder if Kubernetes is the key to making these types of solutions
competitive with traditional JVM type distributed applications like Spark
Streaming, etc.
3) Not all streaming data is real-time. In fact, streaming just means
unbounded data with no inherent stipulation of near real-time SLAs. Real-time
is actually a much stricter requirement.
~~~
asksol
My name is Ask and I'm co-creator on this project, along with Vineet Goel.
This answer sums up why we wanted to use Python for this project: it's the
most popular language for data science and people can learn it quickly.
Performance is not really a problem either, with Python 3 and asyncio we can
process tens of thousands of events/s. I have seen 50k events/s, and there are
still many optimizations that can be made.
That said, Faust is not just for data science. We use it to write backend
services that serve WebSockets and HTTP from the same Faust worker instances
that process the stream.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Hundreds of Thousands of Google Apps Domains’ Private WHOIS Leaked - larrys
http://blogs.cisco.com/security/talos/whoisdisclosure
======
jewel
I wonder if it's time to stop requiring address and phone number information
in the WHOIS information. Unless registrars are required to verify it with a
confirmation letter and phone call, there isn't much guarantee that the
information will be accurate anyway.
The Internet isn't the nice place that it used to be, and I literally have
never gotten anything but spam snail mail letters for my domains.
Perhaps we could even drop the email, and suggest that every domain monitor
the abuse@ domain in order to receive DMCA requests, etc. If the abuse account
isn't monitored, DMCA requests can be sent to the owner of the IP address
block, which seems to be a popular approach anyway.
(For those who have never tried it, try doing a WHOIS on an IP address to get
the WHOIS records for several layers of IP block ownership. This is a use case
where contact information makes a lot more sense, as these blocks are going to
be owned by businesses where there'd be no point to guarding privacy.)
~~~
mox1
Unfortunately ICANN (acting on the wishes of Law Enforcement) enacted exactly
the opposite policy in 2013, requiring verification of certain WHOIS
information*.
[1] [https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/approved-with-
specs-20...](https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/approved-with-
specs-2013-09-17-en?routing_type=path#whois-accuracy)
~~~
27182818284
Without newer techs like Namecoin, is it even remotely possible to be
anonymous? Is it even possible with Namecoin?
I pay for Namecheaps hidden DNS stuff so I don't get spammed with offers and
whatnot, but I'm under no illusion that it means my information is _private_ ,
private.
~~~
dublinben
If your privacy is worth ~$100/year, you can register an anonymous LLC through
a registered agent in a state like Wyoming or Nevada. This would be your legal
point of contact for your domain registrations (and any other business
purposes) and comply with any ICANN requirements. Their business entirely
hinges on strong privacy/anonymity, and is well established within state law.
~~~
ryan-c
Have you done this? I'd be interested in details.
~~~
ChuckMcM
I did not, I went with the generic LLC in Nevada but looked into it. It is
pretty straight forward, you contact one of the registered agents (they
advertise and you can find them at your search engine of choice "Nevada LLC")
and you pay money and poof, you get an LLC. Your agent is a lawyer acting on
your behalf. Besides state law there is attorney-client privilege to aid in
keeping you secret.
Not surprisingly, when you talk to these folks they will assume you are either
very wealthy or doing something which will make your future LLC "disliked" by
a large number of people. Because I was neither of these things, the
recommendation was just file the paperwork myself, save some money.
------
kentonv
In an e-mail to eNom's google-clients-specific support address dated 6/18/13,
I informed them that I wished to transfer a domain away from them, and I said:
"PS. The reason I am transferring is because I signed up for whois protection
yet my whois info has not been protected. From what I can find on the
internet, this is a common problem with Google Apps, Google will not respond
to support requests for free domains, and the only way I can fix it is by
taking control myself. :("
Now two years later this problem is "discovered" by someone else and Google is
treating it as a security disclosure? Hey Google, maybe you should have
listened to the people all over your own fucking support forums that have been
complaining about this for years?
~~~
nikcub
This was the same with Superfish. If you look at the Lenovo forums and other
websites (Google search Superfish and set the time to before 2015) you'd find
_tons_ of complaints from users.
In these instances it was only when somebody recognized these issues as being
real security issues and repackaged them that they got the attention they
deserved.
It is a strange reverse problem in the security world - issues only get
treated seriously when they are reported by security people through a formal
vulnerability reporting and disclosure program (or informally via full-
disclosure and other lists/forums).
While Google and other companies take security reports through these formal
channels very seriously, I doubt they have anybody dedicated to trawling
through user feedback and forums and spotting anything that might be infosec
related.
------
x3c
If this happened on renewal, means the customers who explicitly asked for
Privacy protection didn't receive that service. Shouldn't Google at least
refund all the customers the privacy protection fee because Google failed to
provide the service it charged customers for?
EDIT: I understand that bugs are unavoidable but Google should be bearing the
cost of its bugs. Google should volunteer the refund of $6 X 300,000 (approx.
1.8M dollars) not including negligence penalty of course.
~~~
jhartmann
I had some domains that fell under this bug. Google has paid my registration
on the domains for an additional year, more than the price of the privacy
service.
~~~
pavel_lishin
Thus effectively locking you into their service for another year.
"Sorry about the rat feces in your soup, here's a coupon for another free
visit."
~~~
mod
Isn't that the point of any company who goes out of their way to correct a
mistake?
Are you arguing you'd rather not have them attempt to fix the problem?
~~~
fixermark
He's arguing that customers don't have to be satisfied with letting the
offending party decide what "making the victim whole" looks like. Which is
true.
------
ikken
I still struggle to understand why we need to have a real address of domain's
owner publicly assigned to WHOIS data. The registrar knows the owner so it is
available to law enforcement if lawfully necessary. Owners can also use SSL
certificate to show their address if they need to. But why force them to make
it always public?
~~~
compbio
It is useful to look at countries which require that you identify yourself if
you want to sell stuff online.
For commercial sites in Germany a "Web Imprint" (Impressum) is required by
law. This "Web Imprint" has to be on a prominent, easy to reach position on
the site. It lists the contact data for the owner(s) of the website.
Making anonymously-run webshops against the law shields the consumer against
fraud and always gives non-law enforcement a place of contact to file their
complaints.
Check for yourself the correlation between WHOIS protected/anonimized webshops
and shady business.
~~~
blfr
If they already have to feature a prominent web imprint, what does anyone gain
from an entry in an obscure (to most web users) whois database? An entry that
the registrar will happily cover with their own info for a small fee.
------
belorn
Having whois information protected is quite less useful than the article
pretend it is. Most the information is already available through much more
extensive databases, and where I live, there is at least two competing online
phone books that not only include name, address and phone number, and email,
but also time of birth.
For a service which is intended to serve those with hidden number or hidden
address, 94% opt-in rate sound to dilute that purpose which makes the people
in charge less careful in handling it. Might very likely even cause more leaks
in the future.
------
Animats
Any business with "private registration" is suspicious. As a business, you are
NOT entitled to anonymity. See California Business and Professions Code
section 17538[1] and the European Directive on Electronic Commerce.[2]. Even
if you're operating as a sole proprietor, if you're not a scumbag, it
shouldn't be a problem. If you're a company, the company's business address
should be listed.
There are legal ways to deal with this. There are D/B/A names and
corporations. But hiding under a rock is not a valid option.
I have my name and address on all my domain registrations. It's not much of a
problem. I've had two threats of litigation. One is now out of business and
the other backed down. I get occasional phone calls. I may be getting spam,
but my spam filters are dumping it before I see it.
[1]
[http://www.sitetruth.com/doc/californiabpcode17538.html](http://www.sitetruth.com/doc/californiabpcode17538.html)
[2] [http://eur-
lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:...](http://eur-
lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:32000L0031:EN:HTML)
~~~
kevingadd
One major motivation for hiding whois information is so that the internet scum
brigades don't send a SWAT team to your address with a malicious 911 call. But
this is mostly an issue for individuals, not businesses - so in the case of a
sole proprietor, you do have a pretty good motivation to hide your mailing
address and phone number even if you're doing business.
Sadly this is the reality for individuals these days, until society catches up
with technology - having your mailing address and phone number out and
publicly accessible is actually quite dangerous.
~~~
Animats
There are still telephone directories.
------
scott_karana
Some regional registrars (like CIRA) only publish whois infomation for
business and governmentally owned domains.
Personal ones don't even list email contacts! :)
------
driverdan
The best way to protect your privacy is through multiple layers of protection.
If one fails you aren't completely exposed.
1\. Get a mailbox (eg UPS Store) and use that instead of your home address.
This is worth the $5-15/m cost for package delivery alone. No worrying about
someone stealing packages from your home while you're at work. Privacy is a
bonus.
2\. Use a phone service like Google Voice to protect your phone number.
3\. Add WHOIS privacy on top of that if you really feel you need it.
Email protection isn't really an issue. I use domains@[mydomain] and all the
spam I get is filtered.
~~~
toomuchtodo
If you don't need package delivery, and don't care about mail showing up, use
general delivery. It's free at your local post office.
[http://about.usps.com/news/national-
releases/2012/pr12_125.h...](http://about.usps.com/news/national-
releases/2012/pr12_125.htm)
If you have been displaced and don’t have a permanent address, General
Delivery service allows you to pick up your mail for up to 30 days at a
designated Postal identified location in your current community. Make sure
senders of your mail use the ZIP Code for the area’s designated Post Office.
The ZIP+4 will indicate General Delivery. To find the Post Office that handles
General Delivery in any area, call 1-800-ASK-USPS (1-800-275-8777) and request
“Customer Service.”
An example of a properly-formatted General Delivery address looks like this:
JOHN DOE GENERAL DELIVERY ANYTOWN, NY 12345-9999
EDIT: I use it as a /dev/null physical address, as I have no need for paper
mail.
------
pasbesoin
Come on, Google. Do you have no QA whatsoever?
Seriously, Adam (at Google). You need to maintain some smart people who
continue to monitor what your products are actually doing in production in the
real world. People who can and do go beyond thinking and acting as insiders.
_User_ advocates.
It's not glamourous work. But it's necessary.
I can assert, through my use of a competitor's product, that I actively check
that their WhoisGuard is actually in place and renewed for each of my relevant
registrations. I find it difficult to imagine there's not a smart Googler,
using your services for their own private endeavours, doing the same. Or are
no Googler's privately using your registration services?
Trust, but verify.
P.S. I'll add that this is not the first time I've encountered, as an end
user, a significant security concern with Google products. The previous one
was fixed. And as an end-user, it was immediately obvious to me what the
problem was. Though it took a bit of arguing. To be brief, in the real world,
users share computers. That should not include cached access to private cloud
documents. Try selling that to e.g. the government (who is a customer).
------
grayfox
Good thing there is an advert for Enom's ident protect right there in this
press release.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: Has NLP Helped You? - praving5
I recently came across this book on shaping human behaviours - https://www.nlpco.com/nlp-the-essential-guide/<p>This looks very fascinating to me and I want to dive deeper into it. I have 2 questions:<p>1) Has NLP helped you? If yes, how and if No, why not?<p>2) Where to get further training on NLP and adopt it in regular course of life?
======
ksaj
You might be interested in Derren Brown's take on NLP. He started to study it,
didn't like it, then spent years trying to _not_ get certified. Eventually
they snuck/forced the certification on him anyway. Really bizarre and perhaps
a tad cultish.
In any case, NLP has some apparent actual science, but generously soaked in a
huge dose of snake oil. If you ever take lessons on hypnosis, public speaking,
self-help, etc, you see the exact same principles renamed and rejigged for the
purpose at hand. Same concepts, different salesfolk.
If you want to fast-track your knowledge in the parts of NLP that actually
seem to do something, learn rapid induction and conversational hypnosis
instead. But even then you'll still have to entertain a certain amount of
snake oil. A lot of rapid induction ideas only work on people actively trained
to respond correctly - just like with the 1-inch chi no-contact punch
nonsense. At that point, it is still interesting, but utterly useless in
practice.
Every time these things become commercially viable, they forget that they only
planned on stealing the good bits, and eventually add in all the fake stuff
just the same.
There is a fellow named Igor Ledechowski that seems to be one of the only
people who have studied these concepts in order to model the parts that work.
Check out his ideas on conversational hypnosis. It seems people like Anthony
Robbins have paid a lot of attention to this way of thinking, and it
definitely seems to have worked well for Bill Clinton's impeachment trial.
~~~
praving5
Thanks. This is a great piece of advise.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: My hours have been cut to 15h/wk. What to do with spare time with Corona - iskerson
The cut was offered by my company as a way to scale down during the pandemic without cutting jobs and I took it. No big deal, it's still enough money and that's not the topic I want to discuss in this thread.<p>I'm getting seriously bored, but I can't come up with anything interesting to do with the spare time.<p>It would normally not be an issue: I'd play the console, go for a bike ride, read a book... But for some reason none of that is appealing right now.<p>How to deal with the extra time without going nuts while the pandemic is going on? How do you cope if you've been laid off or just hold a regular full time job where there is only 2-4h worth of work per day?
======
smdz
I was in a similar situation before 2008. The reason was not cut in hours. It
was a new job and there was not enough work and I was paid in full. Over an
entire week I had only 6-10 hours of work, and in the prior job I was doing
12-14 hours daily.
First thing is to allow yourself to be bored for a while. Decide not to do
anything till a fixed date. Ideas will pop up and just write those down (on
paper) as they do. Limit your time on internet for 1-2 hours a day. Sleep more
and exercise a bit (do not strain). Within a week you should see your mood
improved and will have fresh ideas.
For me the low-workload period was long (approx 1.5 years). I learnt music,
stock-trading and some new recipes for cooking.
------
kmbd
besides my WFH full-time as technical manager, I'm planning to complete the
certificate course for Google Cloud Architect
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
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