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Law firm sues to force startup to make anchor text contain the full url - chris11
http://www.slate.com/id/2210636/pagenum/all
======
noonespecial
Just more proof that anyone can sue for anything at any time and the victory
will usually go to the richer. The pretexts have even become boring.
(Trademark!? Really!?)
Lets just slap each other with fish and shout "I challenge thee to a duuu-ahh-
elll."
It would at least provide a visual clue to how much respect people like this
deserve. It would be much harder to put on a suit and pretend that you are
contributing to society if you had to walk around slugging people with salmon
and yelling nonsense.
------
ja2ke
Sometimes maybe a judge should casually browse the internet for a few dozen
hours before handing out a ruling. Might learn something.
~~~
colins_pride
Nothing tops the Microsoft anti-trust judge who declared in open court one
morning that he had separated IE from Windows on his PC, and he didn't
understand why all of these Microsoft guys were saying it was so tough. When
they took a look at his computer, he showed them how he'd deleted the IE icon
from his desktop.
~~~
eru
Sources?
~~~
colins_pride
The date was December 19, 1997, and the judge was Thomas Penfield Jackson
------
huhtenberg
> _the firm presumably wasn't thrilled about having its attorneys' home
> purchases broadcast_
_This_ actually makes sense. Call me eccentric, but I wouldn't want my real
estate purchases to be put on a high-traffic website with a link to my resume.
Sure, the information is there and it is public, but that web startup is
really pushing it. At the very least they could've been a bit more flexibile
when asked to remove the link, which is a reasonable request given the
circumstances.
~~~
jrockway
_I wouldn't want my real estate purchases to be put on a high-traffic website
with a link to my resume._
Then don't buy a house?
I don't really see the problem here. Who cares what house you own?
------
ewiethoff
Every link to my company site must be red, 18-pt font, and blinking.
------
wlievens
Reminds me of the lawyer firm that stated that reading the html code of their
web site was copyright infringement.
~~~
jrockway
Link?
~~~
shermans
<http://techdirt.com/articles/20071017/092927.shtml>
~~~
jrockway
I think people write things like that just because they like the sound their
keyboard makes. Someone should mention to them that _real_ fiction is usually
more interesting.
------
jwesley
The remarkable thing is that this story isn't really all that unbelievable or
surprising. Those lawyers, always add value...
------
sown
I hate this planet.
~~~
Hexstream
I hate the ignorant idiots in position of authority on this planet.
~~~
jrockway
My usual reply to this sort of comment used to be, "kill them all", but one
day the Secret Service showed up at my house and told me to stop saying that.
(Seriously.)
So... uh... be sure to vote.
~~~
Hexstream
I guess I should have phrased that as " _I hate those in a position of
authority that happen to be ignorant idiots on this planet_ " to exclude the
unforeseen interpretation that " _I hate all those in a position of authority
because they are all ignorant idiots_ ".
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
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Commonly Asked Data Science Interview Questions - endswapper
https://www.springboard.com/blog/data-science-interview-questions/
======
huac
These are pretty awful questions, I'd guess maybe 20% are questions you would
actually see in a tech company data science interview. The others are too easy
("How would you create a logistic regression model?"), too CS focused ("What
are hash table collisions?"), or just nonsensical ("How many sampling methods
do you know?").
In my experience DS interview q's are more contextual and focused on problem
solving, since that's basically the job. One place did spend an hour asking
questions of this type (e.g. we walked through the random forest algorithm and
talked about the assumptions that various models make) but I don't think it's
the norm.
------
23049uekkki
My confidence in my ability to apply for data science positions just increased
immensely, which was not at all the reaction I was expecting.
~~~
meotai
Yea, I was really surprised how light the stats part are.
~~~
itg
You would be surprised. Even basic stats questions like those are great for
filtering out people who don’t have a clue about data science and the extent
of their abilities is using a library such as sklearn.
------
v3gas
>How would you clean a dataset?
I'm curious - what do you answer here? I mean, doesn't it really depend on the
dataset?
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"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
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The terrible numbers that Groupon doesn’t want you to focus on - moses1400
http://blog.agrawals.org/2011/08/15/the-terrible-numbers-that-groupon-doesnt-want-you-to-focus-on/
======
lazyjeff
"The median number of Groupons sold to each Groupon customer (someone who has
bought anything): 1."
"The median number of Groupons sold to each person on Groupon’s mailing list:
0."
The median doesn't seem like a fair way to measure either of these. Obviously
there the distribution of Groupons sold is skewed, so the mean is likely to be
much higher than the median. It would probably paint a clearer picture to say
"Of the 25% of people on the mailing list that bought something, half bought 1
groupon, and the other half bought on average 3.6 groupons." (numbers are made
up)
~~~
smackfu
Median is pretty pointless, but so is mean. An actual distribution would be
much better than both.
~~~
lazyjeff
Obviously a distribution would be best, but for a single number, the mean is
better. For example, if groupon says they have 100,000 customers and they will
have 200,000 customers next year, and the mean # of groupons per customer is
2.5, then I can compute that they sell 250,000 groupons per year, and if they
get 200,000 groupons, they will sell 500,000 groupons per year. The median
tells us none of that.
------
qq66
I think we got the point. This is starting to sound like thinkcomp on
Facebook.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
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new ArrayBuffer(3*1024*1024*1024) crashes the page in Google Chrome - wslh
https://twitter.com/nektra/status/669155335739940869
======
pipedreams2
This actually breaks at 2gb - 4kb = 2147479552b
I suspect it is probably overflowing int max somewhere along the line, some
googling shows this is also a buffer size for system calls such as read.
------
strictnein
Actually, only the inspector says
> "inspected target disconnected"
The page provides a somewhat more informative message:
> "... Closing the apps and tabs that you don't need may help by making more
> memory available"
~~~
wslh
The loaded page is destroyed, this is not the expected behavior.
~~~
strictnein
Agreed. Just adding some info to what was stated in the Tweet, since I'm sure
not everyone likes to just run whatever bit of random code that's posted on
Twitter :)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
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Interview with AMD CEO Lisa Su - vivekchandsrc
http://www.anandtech.com/show/11177/making-amd-tick-a-very-zen-interview-with-dr-lisa-su-ceo
======
aljungberg
It's pretty impressive to see a CEO being able to answer a question about CPU
vs GPU power envelope targets just of the cuff.
The interviewer asks why there are no CPUs targeting higher wattages, like how
CPUs are less than 150W but there are 300W GPU. She says she'll need to think
about it but she's pretty sure that the high parallelisation of GPUs makes
them easier to scale up in terms of wattage.
Granted, that answer could be wrong (I know nothing about CPU engineering),
but either way it's a really well considered one to be thought up when "put on
the spot" in an interview with a question you haven't considered ahead of
time. I'm sure that's one of the things which separate good from great in
CEOs: an understanding not only of the broad market decisions made by their
company but even the details of low level architecture decisions.
~~~
baq
> Ph.D. in Electrical Engineering
i mean, you could expect someone with that degree from MIT have at least a
general idea about the technicalities of her flagship products.
~~~
moxious
Yes, you would expect it, but it's still rather atypical; most people become
CEOs because of their business and political acumen, whether or not they
understand the technical bits is maybe 10th priority.
They say about companies that you can tell their culture from the outside by
who they value and who they promote. Some engineering companies promote MBAs,
and some promote engineers. Promotions and who holds high rank is an external
cultural signal to the world that is really hard to fake.
This cuts both ways though: if you see a company that hires and promotes
engineers, where the CEO is this technically deep, you can probably conclude
that (a) they value engineering but also that (b) they're probably not that
great in terms of financial management & project management.
They're radically different skill sets, and opportunity cost abounds. Almost
no one is awesome at everything, because there are only 24 hours in the day,
so being awesome at one thing often does mean you have some trading area where
you're weak.
Engineering companies run by MBAs are not always so bad as they sound. It
sucks as an engineer if your considerations are not always front and center,
but you get other advantages too; better strategy/insight on fundraising,
better overall management, and sometimes vision too, many engineers are too
narrowly focused on incremental improvements, and are missing the "dreamer"
component, aka the "Jobs" not the "Wozniak".
~~~
digi_owl
And how many MBAs are "dreamers"? Then again, i don't think Jobs was much of a
dreamer either, he was just damn good at talking the talk.
If anyone was a dreamer it was Woz back then. Dreaming of having his own
computer, dreaming about computers improving life for everyone, etc etc etc.
Jobs are all about appearance. And not just visual. He had a near pathological
loathing towards fan noise for example. To the point that one AppleII variant
had problems with excessive heat buckling the logicboard and unseating
components because he refused the engineers to install even the most
unobtrusive of fans.
I suspect we can see this in how he was quite hung up on the GUI but
completely missed networked computers while touring Xerox PARC.
~~~
astrodust
> Jobs are all about appearance.
Job was all about _design_ , and design for him went from the very simple, raw
components to the final packaging and marketing. For him there was no boundary
between engineering and design, between software and hardware, they were all
part of the same product.
It's easy to dismiss his views as superficial, but when he wanted to have a
board look a certain way, or for a case to be a certain size, he'd press for
it. When there were technical problems that prevented that from happening he
wanted to _understand_ why. He wanted explanations, and he'd listen to them,
then make his own judgement based on that information.
> ...but completely missed networked computers while touring Xerox PARC.
The Macintosh famously shipped with very high speed serial ports for that
time, up to 230Kbaud, which was vastly faster than any modem or other serial
device around in the 1980s. Why?
LocalTalk:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LocalTalk](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LocalTalk)
Apple may not have had Ethernet in their early computers, but they were
_absolutely_ aware about the importance of networking. Sending files from one
Mac to another was as simple as plugging them together. While the Macintosh
didn't have a lot of games, it did have multi-player ones over a local network
long, long before Windows did.
~~~
ksec
>Job was all about design, and design for him went from the very simple, raw
components to the final packaging and marketing. For him there was no boundary
between engineering and design, between software and hardware, they were all
part of the same product.
+1 Somebody who actually understands Apple and Steve.
------
Insanity
Since I stopped gaming, I stopped following the high-end market. However, it
is nice to see that AMD is trying to get in there again, some competition is
good for the market in general.
If AMD can deliver, then Intel might have to respond with lowering prices on
their products, which I believe might be a bit overpriced now due to there no
being a real vialbe alternative.
Whatever happens, some competition is bound to be a good thing imo.
~~~
overcast
You should come back, even just for a few games a year. There are some
incredible experiences available these days.
~~~
mercutio2
I'm curious if you could elaborate on this.
For the population I represent (never, ever, want a first person visual
rendering, under any circumstance) but love high quality game mechanics, I
have a hard time finding what I consider good games. Everybody wants to polish
their fundamentally undesirable three dimensional scene.
~~~
izacus
Hmm, these last years were one of the best years in:
\- strategy gaming (from Deserts of Kharak, Civilization, Paradox interactive
grand strategy games, Eugen Systems games, Total War series, XCOM and more and
more)
\- RPG gaming (2D isometric RPGs are making a huge comeback with good writing
and gameplay, things like Pillars of Eternity, new Torment, Divinty and more.
3rd person Witcher 3 collected record amount of awards and with good reason.)
\- platformers (Ori, Shovel Knight), roguelikes (Darkest Dungeon, Don't
starve, Spelunky, and more)
\- experimental narrative games (Papers Please, This War of Mine, This is The
Police)
\- modern adventure games (Until Dawn, Telltales Wolf Among Us / Walking Dead
/ Game of Thrones and many more)
And those are only on PC and none of them are first person. Just like movies
go beyond just Marvel and Transformers, gaming goes way beyond just Call of
Duty and Battlefield. The AA market of smaller but still established companies
(Paradox Interactive, Relic Entertainment, Telltale and many more) build great
experiences and I don't think gaming market was ever so live and broad as it
is these years.
~~~
ashark
I'd recommend Kentucky Route Zero, too, which is finally _almost_ all out (boo
episodic release models). It's what you get when people with vision, talent,
some real book learnin', a good understanding of video games in general, and
_artistic taste_ set out to tell a story in video game form. Brain bleach for
the various trying-too-hard, one-note "art" games out there.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
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Microsoft narrows CEO shortlist to Ford, Nokia, Skype and Azure leaders - amaks
http://www.theverge.com/2013/11/5/5070910/microsoft-reportedly-narrows-ceo-shortlist-to-ford-nokia-skype-and
======
antonius
I can understand why Ford's CEO would be considered for the lead job in the
automotive industry (as he helped build Ford's reputation back) but being the
head of Microsoft? I'm wondering what value there is in hiring a CEO that does
not have a technology background/vision.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
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Ask HN: Software Engineering for Professionals – talk ideas - tamersalama
Where I work, we're seeing more professionals (operations engineers, production engineers, accountants, geophysicists, scientists, ...) working on developing their own 'applications' for reporting, visualizations and data analytics.<p>I thought it'd be good idea to give a talk about software engineering to help them better understand the tools, architecture, trade-offs, ecosystems and such.<p>Any thoughts on what to include and how to make it more appealing to a wide audience?
======
AnimalMuppet
Source code control.
Code reviews before checkin.
Tests. ("What is your objective evidence that it does what you need it to
do?")
Keeping track of bugs - a bug database, even if somewhat informal.
Handling unexpected input. (For these people, "complain and die" may be a
valid approach, but don't just continue and produce garbage output.)
Discussing a variety of languages, and giving some guidance on when to use
each, might be useful.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
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How TokuMX was Born - dataviz
http://www.tokutek.com/2014/02/how-tokumx-was-born/
======
rogerbinns
I'm looking forward to when TokuMX is "ready", and especially hope it gives
MongoDB the kick they deserve.
I did try TokuMX over a month ago and it was a dismal failure. It used
considerably less space (good), imported data quicker (good) but failed at
runtime after a few hours claiming issues with locking. Our code doesn't use
locking and was running exactly what runs against MongoDB just fine.
~~~
zardosht
Roger,
I work at Tokutek (and wrote the post above). I'm sorry you ran into issues
trying out TokuMX. I assure you, we are "ready", as we have users running in
production.
Nevertheless, you ran into problems and that is unfortunate. If you have
details, can you please share them with the tokumx-user google group? We might
be able to help. I suspect the transition to using a transactional system like
TokuMX where entire statements are transactional is resulting in some
"gotchas", but that is just an educated guess.
-Zardosht
~~~
rogerbinns
I mean ready in the sense that pointing code that worked flawlessly against
MongoDB to TokuMX then just works flawlessly too.
I uninstalled Toku and went back to MongoDB so I can't provide any further
testing. (The mongorestore takes days.)
I can tell you want code was running at the time. It reads events sorted by
user id and timestamp, and then discovers session boundaries in that. A new
session object (in a different collection) is written out with all the events
as a subdocument list. (In rarer cases an existing session object is updated.)
This was happening in 8 separate processes all in Python/pymongo. There are no
statements running that affect more than one document, nor any need for
transactions.
~~~
leif
If you were using upserts I expect you were having problems due to the
optimizer retrying all possible plans (including table scan) periodically.
This is reflected in
[https://github.com/Tokutek/mongo/issues/796](https://github.com/Tokutek/mongo/issues/796)
and is fixed in 1.4.0. If you'd like to try another evaluation, get in touch
with us and we can help you track down whatever problems you see.
Not all mongodb code will optimally use tokumx without any changes.
Concurrency is hard and mongodb encourages some patterns that are bad for any
concurrent database. For example, count() for an entire collection is not, and
could never be, as cheap in a concurrent database like tokumx as it is in
mongodb.
~~~
rogerbinns
Thanks for the offer, but the mongorestore times (against MongoDB) being over
a week makes this too risky.
The code making changes was insert (mostly) with a few upserts, but the latter
was by _id. My hypothesis as to the cause is that tokumx adds implicit
transactions and then there are some arbitrary restrictions around those
transactions (eg how many outstanding at once, timeouts in lock acquisition)
and after a few hours one of those was hit. The error message was something
about being unable to start a transaction.
> Not all mongodb code will optimally use tokumx without any changes
The goal wasn't to be optimal or anything like that. It was initially about
space consumption (where you did _really_ well) and verifying the same client
code ran correctly. We have two setups so one would run toku and one mongodb
and data processing results compared.
~~~
leif
Ok. Well, you said you were waiting for it to be ready, and I think it is.
We'll be here when you get a week free to tinker.
------
jontobs
Very informative! Sounds like great technology!
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
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Beta invites for lean startup http://qrcardmaker.com - kovlex
Looking for beta testers/early adopters for a new service called <i>http://qrcardmaker.com</i>.<p>Practicing the lean startup methodology by Eric Ries. Trying to build measure and learn how users interact with the app. If you'd like to use the service for free and to help me out, grab a beta invite here:<p><i>http://qrcardmaker.com/beta</i>
======
kovlex
Link for beta invites: <http://qrcardmaker.com/beta>
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Google Flight Search - revorad
http://www.google.com/flights/
======
kiwidrew
It’s rather powerful: as long as the origin airport is one of those shown on
the map, and the destination airport is reachable via a domestic flight on one
of the major airlines (AA, AS, B6, CO, DL, F9, UA, US), the search results
come back instantaneously. Multiple origins and destinations (up to five of
each) are supported as well:
[http://www.google.com/flights/#search;f=LAX,SFO,SEA,LAS,DEN;...](http://www.google.com/flights/#search;f=LAX,SFO,SEA,LAS,DEN;t=ORD,BOS,MIA,ATL,CLT;d=2011-10-10;r=2011-10-14;mp=1300;md=690)
And the results _still_ come back immediately! Including the three-month chart
of prices. This leads me to believe that Google/ITA has precomputed all of
these results, and is simply serving these results out of a cache of some
sort. That would explain why they are only offering a limited set of origin
airports at this time: it probably takes an incredible amount of computing
power and storage space to pre-calculate all of the possible results.
Colour me impressed.
~~~
stingraycharles
Interesting. That makes me wonder: would that really be the optimal approach?
Google is able to return search results for previously unsearched queries
nearly instantaneously too, so I'm wondering whether it's really a cache
that's serving those queries. Would some sort of graph-based index be possible
in this situation?
~~~
gyardley
Here's the classic presentation people usually refer to when talking about
flight pricing complexity.
[http://www.demarcken.org/carl/papers/ITA-software-travel-
com...](http://www.demarcken.org/carl/papers/ITA-software-travel-
complexity/ITA-software-travel-complexity.pdf)
I'd love to know how Google's doing it - it's a really hard problem.
~~~
objclxt
What's interesting is that you linked to an ITA Software presentation, and
Google _own_ ITA Software. So it's almost certain that some of the people who
put that document together worked on this pre-computed solution.
------
cletus
Internally, this has been around for a little while (disclaimer: I work for
Google but not on anything related to this).
What continues to impress me about Google is:
1\. Just how quickly this was built (really, it was quick); and
2\. Google wants you to use our services because they're compelling not
because we don't give you any other choice (ie "Don't be evil").
Sure there are limits to what it currently does but I think you'll see it
rapidly iterate.
~~~
bradleyland
Let's be honest. Google wants us to use their services because the better they
understand us, the better they can advertise to us. That's the profit model at
Google. I don't begrudge them for it either. You've got to turn a profit if
you want to keep the lights on.
I don't mean any offense, but the "Don't be evil" mantra is growing a bit
tired. Evil is a strong word, and "not being evil" is a pretty low bar, IMO.
~~~
breck
I strongly disagree. Google wants us to use its services because at its core
is a bunch of engineers that simply want to make the world better.
~~~
throwaway32
the first motivation of any for profit corporation, especially one as large
and successful as Google, is profit. That is their entire reason for
existence, don't fool yourself into believing otherwise.
~~~
haberman
People like to say this, maybe believing it fulfills some deep-seated need for
cynicism, or makes the speaker feel wise and worldly. But what is your actual
argument in support of this? Just saying it does not make it true.
If profit is the only motivation for decisions at Google, why did it pull out
of China? I'm sure you're cynical and wise about that too, but here's what I
can tell you. I saw Sergey up on stage saying the same things he said in this
interview ([http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/03/22/interview-sergey-
br...](http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/03/22/interview-sergey-brin-on-
googles-china-gambit/)) and he got fiery and emotional about it. This is a guy
who grew up in the Soviet Union until he was 6 and for him it is a very
personal and ideological issue.
This corporations-as-profit-seeking-automata meme is old and tired. At the end
of the day it's people who make decisions, and just as in every aspect of life
people can have complex motivations for the decisions that they make.
~~~
throwaway32
I never said profit was their only motivation, but it is the reason they are a
corporation, and not a charity.
I refer you to the comment above by jey
What Google "wants" as an entity is different from what the individual
component humans want.
Although Sergey is an obviously important influence at Google, he is not
Google.
~~~
haberman
You said profit was the "first" motivation. You haven't even justified that.
Saying that a corporation has to at least break even to avoid being a charity
is a far cry from your previous grandstanding. Just because a corporation has
to make money doesn't mean that money is the "first" motivation for every
decision. It doesn't explain why Google (not Sergey, Google) pulled out of
China.
~~~
timr
Um...they chose to go into China in the first place, and they didn't do it for
charity work. A lot of people thought that was pretty evil.
In any case, the parent doesn't have to justify anything, because he's stating
a relatively well-known argument: in the US, there's an obligation for
corporate executives to maximize shareholder value. This point is debated
([http://www.linkedin.com/answers/law-legal/corporate-
law/corp...](http://www.linkedin.com/answers/law-legal/corporate-
law/corporate-law/LAW_COR_CRL/834796-1078684)), but not to the extent that
you're claiming.
------
hugh3
That really is good. Hipmunk is still better if you know what days you want to
fly, but this is great if you haven't yet decided precisely when, or precisely
where, you want to go.
A pity it only works within the US so far, but I'm sure they'll add
international destinations eventually.
Also a shame that Southwest still won't cooperate with any of these guys. I
guess it's a rational decision on their part: be cheapest _most_ of the time
and hope that people won't bother to compare your fares to others.
~~~
marquis
Yes, the first site that has JetBlue and SouthWest comparisons with the major
airlines will have my traffic. I usually prefer to travel on price when it's
not business so I love how Google has made this clear - that's my core problem
with Hipmunk and I'm not sure why they don't just tell you the cheapest days
to fly, like Kayak at least tries to. I also like how <http://skyscanner.com>
does it.
~~~
goldfish
We (Hipmunk) have Jetblue, and so does Kayak and Google. We also let you
figure out the cheapest days to fly: just click "I'm flexible."
~~~
hugh3
Good to hear.
You also have one killer competitive advantage: an adorable logo.
------
JoshTriplett
Not bad, but hipmunk's visualization seems far far better than Google's
tables. The graphical representation of the flight path seems nice, as does
the highlighting of cities involved, but that doesn't actually give me
information I need to make a decision; Hipmunk's time-oriented chart of
departures, arrivals, and layovers tells me exactly what I need to know to
book a flight.
~~~
kongqiu
Exactly. This would intimidate my aunt; Hipmunk would amaze her.
~~~
kn0thing
I hope she'd like the chipmunk, too!
------
DevX101
If your startup is involved with search aimed at the consumer market, watch
out...Google is coming.
In a few weeks/months Google will be featuring this search result when you
type "nyc to sfo" and take a big bite out of orbitz, kayak, and whoever's
lunch that's in this space.
EDIT: The counterargument to this, is that orbitz, kayak, and friends are some
of the heaviest purchasers of PPC ads. So Google be at risk of cannibalizing
if they push this too hard.
~~~
John212
> If your startup is involved with search aimed at the consumer market, watch
> out...Google is coming.
Possibly... However sites like hipmunk will be used as a comparison in so many
press articles and blog posts when google starts pushing this.
Many start ups have won against google. Google Notepad & Evernote, Google Wave
& Twitter, Google Ride Finder & Uber etc...
.. but I still wouldn't want to be in this space right now.
~~~
frankiewarren
Not entirely sure how you're equating Google Wave and Twitter.
~~~
frankiewarren
I think Jaiku is the more apt comparison, for what it's worth.
------
PedroCandeias
Well, it was a matter of time, wasn't it? For now it's a bit too fiddly when
compared to the likes of Hipmunk, save for the booking process which is quite
streamlined. And the search itself, which is blazing fast. On second thought,
this is really not a bad effort. I can see it gaining huge traction in no
time.
------
samstokes
The (well-hidden) "Limits" widget is a very cool bit of visual / visceral UI
design. Click the "scatter graph" button next to the Duration field and you
get a scatter plot of duration against price for all the flights - which is
useful data in itself - then you can drag a boundary around to set the maximum
duration or price.
------
samstave
You know what would my make flights better (I travel a lot for work - but work
out of my house and book a lot of my own travel)
I want to be able to setup standard trips/itineraries and be able to single
clik re-book them with simply a leave and return date.
Further, I want the system to auto arrange for a cab/shuttle/uber to pick me
up and take me to my destination.
For example, I fly to LAX several times a month - Nome Alaska once a month,
Soon it will be Dallas once a month - and various places in the bay area.
If I can setup my "Visit LAX trip" with all my details and know that a car was
waiting for me when I got to LAX to take me to my office/hotel and I didnt
have to do anything other than click "Re-book LAX" that would save me so much
time and hassle.
I would setup my preferred airlines, times and seats (Virgin America etc...)
~~~
bengl3rt
May I ask what you do, and how I might get into doing it? I am craving a job
with > 0 travel...
~~~
samstave
I am a healthcare consultant. I consult on new hospital builds and ensuring
the organizations are prepared to get licensed and then move in.
------
awj
To me, that map seems like a very confusing bit of UI. The cities themselves
are _really_ tiny interaction points, I'm a relatively experienced FPS gamer
and hitting those points accurately involves more fumbling than it should. You
cannot drag departure/arrival pins. Streetview kind of taught me that this
should be a mechanism for manipulating this sort of location reference.
The big one, though, is that layovers are not reflected on the map. Granted,
it may push me slightly towards more expensive flights, but I would appreciate
the ability to see the grid of ugliness and waiting I'm buying into to get
that super cheap ticket.
I don't think that map as it is now is worth the screen real estate.
~~~
rhygar
The whole thing has "designed by an engineer" all over it. From hidden UI that
reveals itself by clicking/hovering on various elements, to the entire process
being limited to one screen which various pop-out elements and
transformations. There is little consistency in the design, and poor or no
usage of contrast to separate information visually.
When clicking the large blue button to the right of a flight, several rows of
return flights drop down below that. The only visual distinction between these
specific sub-rows and the other departing flights below is a thin blue/gray
border on the sides.
Going from A to B is called an "Outbound flight", while going from B to A is
called a "Return flight". Copy is very important in UI design. It should be
outbound/inbound or depart/return, not some mix of different terminology.
Durations are always "-- Xh -->". What is the point of the arrow if it is
always pointing to the right? Why is the duration a lighter shade than the
rest of the text?
The left column is a Gawker/Gizmodo style static column that locks in place
when scrolling down. The Google search results page doesn't do that.
These are basics, and a company the size of Google with as many employees as
it has should be able to get these things right.
~~~
waqf
Outbound/return is standard terminology all over the travel industry.
Including in UK and US, and for trains and for planes: I'm surprised you're
not familiar with it.
"Depart" means something different: it refers to the beginning of _each_ leg
of the journey. Its opposite is "arrive". So you might have an outbound leg
which departs from LAX and arrives in SFO, and then a return leg which departs
from SFO and arrives in LAX.
~~~
rhygar
Hipmunk.com says depart/return and Iflyswa.com says departing/returning. Your
claim is 0/2 so far.
~~~
whatusername
I went to go and prove you wrong (I personally use outbound/return).
But webjet (Departing/Returning) and skyscanner (Depart/Return) seem to back
you up.
------
smackfu
"Sorry, locations outside the U.S. are currently not supported." Are you
kidding me?
~~~
zyb09
as usual
------
amirmc
Just for some context, here's the previous HN discussion when Google announced
their acquisition of ITA in July 2010.
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1479107>
------
toot
It's quite scary that a company like Google can come along and shit in a
startup's cereal practically overnight.
I know we were all rooting for The 'Munk, but it seems that Google's use of
Price x Duration matrix effectively steals the thunder from Hipmunk's agony
filter.
I mean, it's not as if Google needs the affiliate revenue, and I bet the
Hipmunk guys would have preferred it had Google decided to "organise the
world's information" through an acquisition. I think I'd need a good cry if
this happened to me :(
~~~
goldfish
No tears over here! We've known this was coming for almost a year—Google
announced their ITA acquisition before we even launched. We've also been
preparing some sweet responses :)
~~~
revorad
Attaboy! Still rooting for you guys. You should add gigaballs of steel to the
mascot.
------
geuis
General question here. Almost all flight search sites default the search dates
to about 3 weeks out. Now, I find this annoying but I'm wondering if its done
because there is statistical evidence that most customers search in that range
of time, or rather if it's just what someone thought would be a good idea by
"following their intuition".
~~~
geuis
Well this is some interesting research. Out of my off-hand and roughly
scientific research, my statement of "almost all" was quite off.
I found that all of the major carrier websites I could remember off the top of
my head did not employ the date-ahead practice.
Delta - no US Airways - no Southwest - no Virgin America - no Continental - no
I followed that by a Google search for "flight search" and checked the sites
that came up in roughly the 1st and 2nd pages. Where I put "yes" and the date
range, this date range was pre-populated.
Based on Google for "flight search" Priceline - no Travelocity - no Kayak -
yes 9/27/11-10/4/11 Expedia - no Cheapflights - no Flightsearch.com - yes
9/27/11-10/4/11 Tripadvisor - yes 9/27/11-10/4/11 Farebuzz.com - yes
9/27/11-10/4/11 <http://www.skyscanner.com/> \- yes 9/27/11-10/4/11
Finally, I checked YC's own Hipmunk, and they do not do it either.
Hipmunk - no
So my original statement was at least partly false. It doesn't seem like
"almost all" after all. And the ones that I could find doing the date-ahead
practice all had identical dates. I suspect all of them use the same backend
search product.
I don't care enough at this point anymore to follow up on this anymore, so
I'll leave it at that.
~~~
bonamy
I cannot vouch for the other sites, but at Skyscanner we looked at the
aggregated search history (12 million users a month) to make a best guess at
the default dates to set.Interestingly the defaults we use are different for
the mobile platforms. (We use our own backend technology)
~~~
LokiSnake
Can you provide a little more detail on this? What percentage of users
actually use the defaults (for both start and end date), and how many change
it anyways?
Have you thought about doing some A/B testing on providing a default and not?
------
andrewtbham
Bad news for hipmunk? Especially since google acquired ITA.
~~~
andrewtbham
The really bad news for hipmunk will be when google integrates it into their
search results.
~~~
hugh3
What do you mean by "integrates it into their search results"?
Hipmunk's killer feature is the ability to easily visualize the flight in
terms of the time you leave, the time you arrive and the time spent at various
intermediate locations. It becomes more useful when there are no nonstop
flights. Google is taking a different approach with their UI, which is fine.
In terms of whether I'd use google or hipmunk to search for flights in the
future, I'd say that it depends on what my priorities are for that particular
flight.
~~~
andrewtbham
by "integrate into their search results" i mean.. if you search google for
"sfo lax" and it brins up this new Google Flight page with their organic
results.
~~~
hugh3
Ah, I see. Sorry, the ambiguous "it" made me think "it" was hipmunk. Somehow.
------
NuecadFoi
Game over.
Disclaimer: This is a throwaway account. I'm a person who has had a travel
startup. I've decided to halt, once Google has finally acquired ITA Software.
Travel is one of the world's largest industries (~5th), and online sales are
its significant part (~10-30%, depending on the market), growing strongly.
Online travel agencies (OTA) are among the few companies on web that get real
money (~$150 per sale) from customers (it is relatively easy to make serious
revenue).
Online travel sales consist mostly of flight bookings, and hotel reservations.
On these markets, there are roughly three categories of players. Airlines and
hotels _provide_ the inventory, that is flights and hotel rooms. Computer
reservations systems (GDS) _manage_ the inventory. Online travel agencies
_sell_ the inventory.
Specifically, there are thousands of airlines and hotels (e.g. Hyatt,
Lufthansa). However, there are only three major GDS operators in the US and
Europe (i.e. Amadeus, Sabre and Travelport), as well as only few big OTAs
(i.e. Expedia, Travelocity, Orbitz, Priceline, Hotels.com, and Opodo).
Few decades ago, before Internet, airlines and hotels were unable to sell
inventory on their own. It definitely takes more time to set up an office than
a connection between two airports. Thus, it made sense to use travel agencies
for this purpose.
Over time, airlines and hotels became also unable to manage their inventory.
Synchronization of reservations between thousands of third parties is a non-
trivial task, not a core competency of involved companies. Thus, it made sense
to use a middle man.
That's what GDS systems do. They manage inventory, what includes reservations
(PNR), its availability, prices, and exchanging data with others. As far as I
know, right now, airlines and hotels pay them for the service, and for each
reservation made (~few bucks).
Internet has complicated things a bit. Travel agencies are no longer so vital,
as both airlines and hotels are able (at least, they think so) to sell the
inventory on their own. Unfortunately, they were too slow again, and OTAs has
emerged meanwhile (Expedia), giving the second youth to GDS companies.
The ecosystem is like an old marriage couple, although a threesome. Each party
hat hates each other, but there's no other way around. To oversimplify a bit,
OTAs have _customers_ (traffic), GDS systems _manage_ the inventory (with
airlines, hotels, and OTAs) and both airlines and hotels _provide_ the
inventory, after all.
From time to time there's an affair. Low-cost airlines try to distrupt the
market by selling tickets so cheaply partially because they sell them
directly. Major OTAs, like Expedia, partially grow to a GDS category. Some
airlines or hotel chains withdraw from GDS systems, and return eventually with
negiotiated better fees. However, it's mostly business as usual.
Today, if you want to start an online travel agency you have to speak with a
GDS company. Depending on your market, it might be Amadeus, Sabre or
Travelport. After a long selling process, you get access to the system, and
you can start selling the reservations.
What's important, though, nearly all systems used today were created a decade,
or two, ago. As core competency of GDS companies is in selling, then, as far
as I know, they outsource the software evelopment to third parties, and it's
not that easy to innovate on a critical part of the world's infrastructure.
What you end up with, then, is an access to an undocumented API that lets you
to search, and manage your reservations. Insiders are used to the quirks, like
waiting few seconds until you get the response, random issues, or hinting the
system so you get a better response than others. Importantly, you're actively
discoured to cache the data, as the prices change rather frequently.
The critical part here is search. It's a mathematically non-trivial problem to
very quickly find rates within thousands of connections, definitely beyond
technical know-how of GDS operators, airlines and hotels. ITA Software has
managed to get access to the inventory and while, as far as I know, they do
not sell resevations, they've created a much better (faster) search.
Meanwhile, few years ago, metasearches (e.g. Kayak, Hipmunk) emerged. Smart
folks have realized that the competition is on price, customers look for a
single place to compare prices, and operate under assumption that what really
counts is traffic. From both customers and metasearch perspective, it does not
make that big difference where do they buy the reservation from, an OTA or
directly from an airline.
So, here we are today.
As a beggining travel agency, you likely have to pay annually for access, and
for each request made, especially if you exceed the quota negotiated with the
GDS company. Few years ago you were able to make profit by incurring a
transaction fee to each ticket sold, but now transaction fees are nearly non-
existent, and it's more frequent to rely on provisions from GDS companies,
and, sometimes, airlines.
What's your competetive advantage? Basically, you cannot provide much better
product than your competitors, as everyone relies on the similar legacy GDS
system that returns the flight details rather slowly. Most of the time, only
choices are either to show the results a bit differently, or bet on more
trustful brand.
The focus is on efficiency. Profit per ticket is so slim, so cost of customers
acquisitions is what really matters. OTAs, metasearches and, increasingly,
airlines, together with hotels, master SEM, SEO, and other forms of
advertisement (newsletters, banners). They live and die by the numbers. If
you've figured out how to scalably make $1 more profit on each reservation
made, you're covered for some time. The novel methods are, obviously,
eventually realized by others, too.
In this race to the bottom there's one clear winner. Google's AdWords is a
major source of traffic for all parties, and I bet that they already make the
biggest profit off each reservation made. Once Google has acquired ITA
Software, they now have both traffic and the inventory.
~~~
danssig
This is one of the reasons I hate Google. I love to see normal people like me
go make a startup and become successful. Escaping their corporate bonds. With
companies like Google around who can use ad income to supplement dabbling in
all sorts of things they can really weaken that option. And what's Google
going to do with this? Add a couple percent on their revenue sheets? Great.
~~~
NolF
And make my and million's of other live's much better. It takes a mammoth to
disrupt such a consolidated (and crappy) industry.
~~~
danssig
It does not take a mammoth anymore. A small group with a big idea can change
the world these days. We don't need Google.
~~~
professorsabena
Actually yes and no.
True you dont need Google. We would all love their traffic but having played
with the tool for the past 24 hours. I have noticed the changes in inventory
state and they are doing exactly what we could have expected them to do.
Sadly that is also the downside - they did exactly what we expected them to
do. A mediocre job that is fast and of course "good enough".
A small team can (and has) replicated what Google has done. In fact there are
many of them. But Google does not provide Trust and in my reasonably jaundiced
view - this is another rearranging of the deck chairs.
The issues are now out in the open. The core infrastructure of search is
REALLY hard if you work on the same premise as Google. If you change the
basics then there is a different answer.
Will the basics change? I believe the answer has to be yes because otherwise
the original premise of the first poster must logically be correct.
I believe not. I am working specifically to change that - if you are
interested - then ping me.
------
adaml_623
My First Impression:
No international flights yet: Fail but not surprising
That's okay I want to fly from NY to Vegas next year. No flights for April
2012: Fail that was not expected.
I don't really understand why Google launches stuff like this when it has a
lovely user interface but is a bit halfbaked in terms of the data that they've
put in.
I guess I'll go back in a years time when they remind me about it.
~~~
modeless
Many airlines don't allow you to book tickets more than 6 months in advance at
their own websites. I don't think it's surprising that Google didn't
prioritize 6+ month advance ticket purchases.
------
angus77
_We have detected that you are using an unsupported web browser. We support
Firefox 3.5 or later, Chrome, Safari 4 or later, or Internet Explorer 8 or
later._
?!? I'm using the Android browser!
------
markmccraw
If I were expedia, orbitz, priceline, travelocity, kayak, hipmunk. etc. I'd be
very very afraid. Sure, google won't actually do the sales, but they are
linking direct to airline websites for now. Also this doesn't exist for
hotels. Yet. The odds that in 1 year that any of those sites have a better UI
or superior search capabilities than Google is low. So, what will they bring
to the table?
Also, what's up with all these people saying that it's so limited because it
doesn't do international and such. It seems very obvious that this thing will
get better and better and like others have said, eventually end up on top of
the search page. This is assuming it gains traction quickly and doesn't get
nuked.
------
stevenp
Honestly, the lack of a good API by any provider is one of the biggest
barriers to entry in this space. I wonder if the Hipmunk guys might release
one? I'd be _thrilled_ to send affiliate traffic to the first company that
makes good on this.
------
splish
Unless I'm missing something fairly obvious, they might have missed something
pretty big - is there any way to book a one way flight?
~~~
boyd
Agreed -- couldn't find it in the first 30 seconds, which is sort of a red
flag...
------
esutton
what will be a game changing tool, and something befitting the resources of
google, would be to pair flights together that are cheaper than what is
offered by the airline. for instance: flying from NY to LA. Airlines sell this
route non stop, or through one of their hubs. But imagine if a flight search
can figure out that a oneway flight from ny to new orleans on Delta and than a
flight from new orleans on AA, had a low layover and was significantly cheaper
than the published routes.
The problem is that as this expands to more cities and takes more stops, you
end up hitting an NP problem.
~~~
kiwidrew
It's unlikely that the Delta fare from NYC to MSY and the American fare from
MSY to LAX permit end-on-end combination with each other, so it would have to
be issued as two separate tickets. What happens if your Delta flight to New
Orleans is delayed and you miss your connecting flight to Los Angeles on
American? Neither carrier is going to offer you any compensation, and your
travel insurance probably has a clause which excludes misconnections caused by
an airline's late arrival.
There are occasions when this strategy produces good results, however: last
year I needed a last-minute one way flight from a small southeastern city (TYS
/ Knoxville) to San Francisco, and the fares were extremely high ($800+). But
flights to Orlando were very cheap due to competition from low-cost leisure
carriers, and the last-minute fares from Orlando (MCO) to San Francisco were
quite reasonable. I booked, on a single ticket and flying on a single airline
the entire way, TYS-IAD-MCO-IAD-DEN-SFO. This gave me a TYS-MCO fare plus an
MCO-SFO fare, which was hundreds of dollars cheaper than the more direct TYS-
DEN-SFO. At the time, saving money was a lot more important than getting to
San Francisco a couple of hours earlier. A cunning plan that cannot fail!
Except that I missed my first flight of the morning due to an overnight road
closure that blocked my only way of leaving the house. By the time that I got
to the airport, my originally booked flight had already left and I was faced
with a very long wait for the next flight to IAD, which virtually guaranteed I
wouldn't even make it to San Francisco that day. It was only through a
combination of charisma and blind luck that I managed to convince the airline
to reroute me direct through Denver, which is completely against company
policy. They only charged me the $50 same-day standby fee.
Needless to say, I would never sell that sort of a ticket to the general
public. Far too many different ways in which things could go horribly wrong.
It's also likely that the airlines would promptly revoke your ticketing
privileges with them were they to discover you were routinely issuing these
sorts of tickets.
~~~
esutton
perfectly fair, i admit i've done some flight "hacking" myself. The reason i
bring it up is because it is well know that airlines prices their flights
between city pairs, not based on the legs. For instance a flight, between jfk
and lax through chicago could cost more than the sum of those two same exact
flights. This would be an opportunity to build your own ticket. I admit there
are significant downsides with delays and reroutings, but if google presented
the information to the public it would add transparency to a very opaque
system and it may lead to a change throughout the industry in the way tickets
are priced. After all google's mission statement is to organize the worlds
information
~~~
jser
The market for building complicated routings is very small -- typically only
mile/segment runners. ITA's backend is already used by that community for
this, but not sure why the public would be interested. Each segment adds
additional landing fees and taxes, making it more expensive, unless you're
exploiting a rare hub/partner mistake fare.
------
martingordon
Looks nice and it has great potential, especially since it isn't cluttered
with links to Expedia/Priceline like the others are.
That said, I can't really use it until it supports multiple destinations/open
jaw in a single search.
------
tamersalama
This is just beautiful. Data matrix is innovative, UI is out of the way, slick
and to the point interface, and it even takes you to the correct 3rd party
booking pages.
I can't wait till this is implemented in Canada.
Kayak beware!
~~~
jonjamz
> Kayak beware!
This definitely looks better than Kayak. ^_^
------
tonfa
I love the scatter plot graph (with duration/price), it is so geeky :)
------
pumainmotion
As is evident from some of the comments here, the map and the search bar on
top are totally extraneous to the basic task that the user wishes to perform.
The absolute barebones should be shown: Starting location, Destination, Dates.
And then maybe a less noisy version of the price-points plot from which one
can just drag and drop certain options into a bucket for comparison.
The fact that so much scrolling _needs_ to be done to even get a basic
understanding of the results means this _needs_ to be reworked.
------
stevoski
I try to get a flight from Frankfurt - the 9th busiest airport in the world. -
and I get "Unavailable".
Post this again when I can actually use it.
~~~
nlh
When you search for a destination airport outside of the US, you get a very
clear message:
"Sorry, locations outside the U.S. are currently not supported."
They're taking the release-early-iterate-often approach to this new service,
which means that they're not going to make everyone happy immediately.
Rather than dismiss this new service just because it doesn't fit your specific
use case right now, think about this from a different (i.e. hacker)
perspective -- this is a cool new service that will obviously become even
cooler as it gets more advanced.
~~~
stevoski
I agree totally...just pointing out that the site is useless to us living
outside of the USA. Hard to get excited about something that is, from a
European resident's perspective, useless.
------
faulkner
Decent initial release, but I wish the search was more flexible.
My common use case is "I will spend $X to go anywhere for under Y days any
time in the future" and I haven't found a service that makes this easy.
Kayak's "explore" page is the closest I've found, but they rarely have the
cheapest flights listed and have no way to set duration. Has anyone found a
better solution?
~~~
rebelnz
These guys almost fulfil that requirement - I use their service pretty
regularly. <http://adioso.com/>
------
tedkalaw
Is there anyway to do one-way flights? I really like it so far but cannot for
the life of me figure out if one-way is possible.
~~~
billboebel
I can't find it either. I would have actually used it today since I found it
right as I was about to search for a flight on Kayak... but w/o one-way I
can't use it.
------
pmorici
I don't understand why anyone would use a federated flight search when looking
for a domestic flight in the US. None of the major airlines come close to
Southwest in terms of price or hassle free travel and none of the flight
search engines include price information for Southwest.
~~~
T-hawk
Perhaps for the still-common case of flying to an airport where Southwest
doesn't go? Southwest gets to be cheap in significant part by only flying
routes with enough demand to fill a 737.
And on rare occasions another airline does beat Southwest's price. Sometimes I
see flights in and out of JFK turn up cheaper on Delta.
------
rickdale
When are people going to stop solving this problem and start building super
sonic airplanes like the concord? The airline industry moves backwards in
technology and trying to build a flight search engine to wrap around it is
really a band-aid to the real situation. If I could get to Vegas in half the
time, or even a quarter of the time (currently takes 4 hours, could take 1 in
supersonic jet) I would pay at least double price for a ticket, and I wouldnt
even need a seat.
My point is if you fly coach especially with Delta they treat you like a slave
and stuff you with almost zero space to move (I am american, but not obese
(5'9, 200lb). Forget flight search engines I can find a flight, make a me a
faster more tolerable flight, you are friggin GOOGLE!
~~~
usaar333
Drag (and hence power required) is roughly proportional to the square of the
velocity. You want to go twice as fast? You better be willing to pay (at
least) 4x the ticket price. And since most people want cheaper tickets over
flight time, you'll have to pay even more to compensate for the lack of
economies of scale.
Computer efficiency still is rapidly moving up. Airplane efficiency is near
its limits.
------
dhruvbird
This had to happen sooner than later after the ITA aquisition. I wonder why it
took them so long.
------
antimora
Is it me, or that app is super fast?
~~~
smackfu
It probably is caching data from other people's searches, similar to what
Kayak does. This is cool right up until you try to actually book a flight and
it sells out or goes up in price dramatically.
~~~
laconian
Wait, is this actually the case with the Google product?
------
jnw2
I was under the impression that Amtrak from Newark Airport to 30th St Station
in Philadelphia was available as an airline code share (and that train segment
is fast enough that there's no good reason to get on a plane for
Newark<->Philadelphia, even if you are connecting to another flight out of
Newark), but I haven't figured out how to find such a code share with Google's
flight search tools.
(The governor of IL and the Chicago mayor also asked Amtrak to study how to
extend some of the Amtrak routes to O'Hare, presumably to replace some
``commuter'' flights, and they wanted the study done by the end of this
summer, but I haven't seen any evidence of the study being done yet.)
------
0x12
It's only a problem for hipmunk as long as google doesn't 'retire' the
project.
Give it 6 months or so.
------
skylar
We built this at Yahoo! in summer 2007 after the FareChase acquisition. Took
about a week or so to prototype, and a couple months to offer various
filter/search criteria and prepare for launch. With access the good flight
data APIs it's a pretty simple app. Of course for us it was never allowed to
launch.
Glad to see Google was finally able to push something like this. Main feature
missing that Y! Faremaps had is the ability to specify a span of time in which
you wanted to travel and the cheapest trips in that timeframe were shown.
Also, you could search "weekends only" in that timeframe.
------
revorad
In true Google style, they are focusing on speed, with a minimal UI.
~~~
r00fus
Unexpected was the minimal data part... They have a short look-ahead and don't
work with any international destinations.
The folks who are most interested in this app are the ones who are most likely
interested in the above two points.
------
badclient
When I want to do a flight search, I don't usually think of a map.
------
eslaught
I wonder if they allowed ITA to keep writing in Common Lisp...
~~~
raldi
"Knowledge of LISP" is still showing up on job postings:
[http://www.google.com/jobs/itasoftware/eng/ita-software-
soft...](http://www.google.com/jobs/itasoftware/eng/ita-software-software-
engineer-data-and-reporting-cambridge-ita/index.html)
------
JohannTh
I work for Dohop (www.dohop.com), a direct competitor of Google's new flight
thing. We have been worried about Google's entrance into the field for a
while, but after today we are breathing easier.
No international? No one-way? I know Google will change this, but why put out
such a wildly underwhelming product?
And finally, since they are basing the whole thing on ITA anyway, we don't
expect them to do anything Kayak isn't already doing.
------
drallison
Wow ... but then I am not really sure it meets my needs. For one thing, it
does not recognize may local airport and keeps wanting me to fly out of
another airport a good 4 hour drive away! And while it is good at displaying
cost differentials for different destinations it does not seem to do as well
for the same destination at different times with different carriers. Still, it
is interesting.
------
kin
My eyes dilated when using the auto price feature. Also the speed and ease of
adjusting the dates by a day is impressive.
------
xedarius
Please build this in Europe, searching for flights is so painful. I hope
you're looking at this web site Expedia!
------
frankiewarren
This makes a ton of sense to me. Users already trust Google with search and
connecting people with airlines has baked-in revenue. This also has tremendous
advertising potential. Imagine if local restaurants could target ads at people
who will be traveling to the area in the next three months.
------
jeffem
They must be accessing prior flight search history in some way or they made a
really lucky guess with their default selections.
I've recently searched for flights on Expedia and Southwest (I don't think
I've visited anywhere else). Google already had those same dates and cities
selected by default.
------
iradik
I think they will integrate this with google maps and give around the world
directions. Pretty cool.
------
kellysutton
"5 unknown price"
Looks like it needs another QA pass.
~~~
mlinsey
Were those Southwest flights? I think SWA doesn't let any of the aggregators
display prices for their flights - I was pleasantly surprised that I saw
Southwest flights at all.
~~~
kellysutton
I was pointing out the obvious typo. It should read "5 unknown prices."
------
littlegiantcap
Interesting, I like the simple layout, but it would be nice to have a price
comparison of a few days in each direction like some sites have (I'm thinking
Virgin Atlantic) so you can save some money by leaving a day early or a day
late. Overall though bravo.
~~~
hugh3
Once you've done your search, click on the little calendar icon, and it gives
you a lot of information about prices on other days.
~~~
littlegiantcap
Ah, missed it. Thanks.
------
joeyj01
It is amazing! I hope outside U.S service will come soon and calculate flights
globally.
------
emehrkay
Interface was confusing at first: you click the "x from $xxx" then you choose
a return flight by clicking the sub="x from $xxx" with the time you'd like to
return. Then you can book.
This is cool though
------
rufo
Completely useless for me. Doesn't find a single flight out of ROC.
------
eren-tantekin
Sorry, locations outside the U.S. are currently not supported :/
------
mcdowall
I had always imagined they would try to dabble in flight search but always
assumed the sheer volume of their travel ppc clients would restrict it. Big
revenue gamble.
------
27182818284
Faster than Hipmunk, but can't do international flights yet.
------
fmavituna
Great implementation. Recently I've been playing with skyscanner and HipMunk.
This will definitely replace them for me when international support arrives.
------
kingkilr
Very nice, my only complaint is they don't have Southwest pricing. No one else
does either, so Southwest continues to bring me to their site :)
~~~
zaggggg
In addition, <http://getawayfinder.southwest.com/> has been around for some
time already.
------
supahfly_remix
I don't see any Southwest or JetBlue airlines flights listed. Both usually
have very competitive pricing on some routes.
------
RossM
Just the other day I was wondering "why isn't there a flight option in Maps?",
well here you go then, there soon will be.
------
retrofit_brain
Wow what a relief to see they are dogfooding. This is built on GWT and the
performance is kick ass.
------
iskander
Any idea when they expand beyond the US?
------
marcamillion
This is one of those late nights at Hipmunk.
Good luck guys!
------
mahmud
U.S. only.
------
ofca
hipmunk, hold on to your 'nackers :)
------
reagan83
Jesus, this amazing.
------
mindstab
ha a flight search engine that only does flights inside the US? cute, but of
limited use. I won't hold my breath just yet.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
How to Be Someone People Love to Talk To (2015) - knrz
http://time.com/3722418/become-someone-people-love-talk/
======
onmobiletemp
I started paying attention to people and discovered a lot of this on my own
over the course of three years. At some point i realized that whenever i
talked to someone their eyes would glaze over and their face would go stony.
Then theyd talk to someone else and their eyes would become focused and their
face alive and animated. Laughter. I figured out this was because they didnt
care about what i was saying or about my opinions. So i tried various things
and looked at their eyes. Sometimes their eyes would become alive again and i
could tell they cared. Slowly you learn what people want to hear. And its so
true about smiling and body language, people feel uncomfortable if you dont
project wellbeing. What you need to understand is that there is no logic in
any of it. Humans are machines and the algorithms that they employ for
attention and emotion are surprisngly uniform and very unintuitive for autists
like me and you. Dont worry about the logic of whats hapenning, just think of
what their algorithm is doing. Its verry dificult because you cant verify what
people are thinking, you cant debug it and you cant start over -- you have to
guess a lot. Overall people want to see big smiles and confident body posture.
If you are slouched over people dont like it. If you stand up straight you
will be amazed at how differently you are percieved. But it all has to be
genuine. If youre trying to manipulate and understand people in a clinical way
you will fail. All you need is a genuine desire to bond with people and the
patience to pay attention to what seems to work and what doesnt.
I should also add that for me, and probably for most people like me, the
process of figurimg out what people like and dont like is also partly a
process of self discovery. Im not the kind of person thats in touch with
himself. Discovering how your words impact other people will also teach you
about how your mind, conciously or otherwise, reacts emotionally to the words
of others. Overall ive been genuinely excited to learn about myself amd others
and use that wisdom to help enjoy the presence of other people. For me its
been a very productive process of growth and discovery. I think framing the
problem of interpersonal relations within that context instead of the cringey,
manipulative context of internet social tips really helped.
~~~
randcraw
Actually, not only do I agree with your main point, but I think I know why
it's a problem. (BTW, it's a problem for me too.) Most people today have the
attention span of gnats. They crave talk in small, light, humor-based doses,
like TV sitcom dialogue.
(And yes, I don't understand what most people want to hear either. Mostly I
think they want others to compliment them, ask them to expound on themselves,
and laugh at inane jokes.)
Your long-ish post implies that you prefer discourse (the antithesis of small
talk). I suspect you'd like to pose an idea and then exchange ideas on it.
While that was popular before the age of TV (much less internet), conversation
on topics that resonate and last for 5+ minutes is unusual today, especially
verbally, and it's likely that few strangers respond well to it. People like
to tell / hear stories about other people, not discuss ideas.
Like you (I suspect) I suffer small talk badly, though in recent years I've
learned to cut back on delivering 'large talk'... hopefully _before_ peoples'
eyes glaze over.
~~~
ksk
What made you believe that this so called 'large talk' was popular before TV?
I feel people were simply more wordy before, not necessarily more expansive in
terms of exchanging ideas.
~~~
dpark
I'm not even sure people were more wordy. TV has been widespread for three
generations now. When people under the age of 80 talk about the time before
TV, they're mostly revealing their imaginations and not any historical
information.
------
xor1
I think the article severely downplays the importance of attractiveness. If
the other party finds you attractive, the bar is lowered to the point of you
simply being normal/average in terms of intelligence, wit, and whatever else
you want to include in your definition of what makes a person "interesting".
You basically need to be a vapid idiot to give anyone a bad impression as an
attractive person.
It's a huge factor. I've started putting some of my big programmer bucks into
improving my appearance before I hit 30, starting with braces (family couldn't
afford them as a kid), eyelid surgery to fix some mild ptosis, and a nose job.
I've also started using sunscreen and moisturizer on my face on a regular
basis.
The past few years have made me realize that your appearance only becomes more
important as you age and progress in a white-collar career -- not less, as I
was led to believe as a child. This is especially disheartening to realize
while working in CA/NYC tech, which have always been billed as one of the most
meritocratic and progressive sectors. Getting into shape only takes you so
far. I consider myself average now, but I want to be hot.
~~~
onmobiletemp
Please stop, you are wrong. Im attractive and people hate me. Have you ever
considered whats its like to be attractive? People are instantly jealous of
you and hate you. And they make sure to lay judgement into you -- if you arent
whip smart they will tear you down just like anyone else. I know ugly, average
looking and good looking people who all do very well with people and in life.
It comes down to your intelligence, not how you look. Please dont mutilate
your face like a south korean teenager. Just like them you will find thay its
not worth it.
~~~
im3w1l
Question for you and xor1. Are you talking about going from a 1 to a 5, from a
5 to an 8 or from an 8 to a 10?
My intuition is that at the deformed end of the spectrum, any improvement is
going to be 99% positive and that it starts to become more of a mixed blessing
as you approach perfection.
~~~
xor1
I don't like using a 10-point system because it's so ambiguous, but I guess
I'm talking about going from 5-8 to 8-10. The way I mentally do rankings is
Ugly - Acceptable - Exceptional, so going from Acceptable to Exceptional.
(For the record, I try very, very hard to treat everyone equally, since the
influence that attractiveness has on human behavior is something that I'm
aware of and think about constantly. Hence this discussion.)
------
tyingq
The best bit of advice in the article:
_The right question is “How do I get them talking about themselves?“_
I've noticed that even if the only thing you do is ask someone their opinion,
and listen attentively, there is some sort of distortion field effect.
They will often later recall you as knowledgeable, insightful, etc...even
though you never did anything but ask questions.
~~~
rrherr
Yes! My favorite tactic to get people talking about themselves comes from Paul
Ford:
_Just ask the other person what they do, and right after they tell you, say:
“Wow. That sounds hard.”
Because nearly everyone in the world believes their job to be difficult. I
once went to a party and met a very beautiful woman whose job was to help
celebrities wear Harry Winston jewelry. I could tell that she was disappointed
to be introduced to this rumpled giant in an off-brand shirt, but when I told
her that her job sounded difficult to me she brightened and spoke for 30
straight minutes about sapphires and Jessica Simpson. She kept touching me as
she talked. I forgave her for that. I didn’t reveal a single detail about
myself, including my name. Eventually someone pulled me back into the party.
The celebrity jewelry coordinator smiled and grabbed my hand and said, “I like
you!” She seemed so relieved to have unburdened herself. I counted it as a
great accomplishment. Maybe a hundred times since I’ve said, “wow, that sounds
hard” to a stranger, always to great effect. I stay home with my kids and have
no life left to me, so take this party trick, my gift to you._
[https://medium.com/message/how-to-be-
polite-9bf1e69e888c](https://medium.com/message/how-to-be-polite-9bf1e69e888c)
~~~
tunap
"She kept touching me as she talked. I forgave her for that."
Salesmen/Saleswomen know a pat on the back or a touch on the arm can be very
disarming. When a stranger touches me purposefully I cannot help but
scrutinize the "why?".
~~~
tyingq
Pretty bold of a salesperson to grab your forearm, or other obviously
flirtatious moves though. Might even risk the opposite of the intended effect.
Is that common, or is it usually more subtle, like touching your hand when
passing a pen?
~~~
tunap
A touch on the forearm is what I`ve experienced most from saleswomen, a breast
press on my arm has occurred more than once. Always* during a negotiation when
I was the prospective buyer.
*Excluding social interactions.
------
Kiro
I always try to play the game of "don't say a thing about yourself until
someone asks" and it always works wonders. Everyone loves me since all I do is
ask questions, giving them an opportunity to speak about themselves. It
seriously makes me hate people though since so few actually asks anything
back.
~~~
personlurking
Something happens to me with a certain frequency and I have yet to understand
it. In a social group of people who are just getting to know each other, there
are people I run into who only ask questions, and so I find the constant
question-asking to be a defense mechanism (if that's the right term). That is,
"I don't know how to go about talking to random people but if I just keep the
questions coming, it'll be easier for me."
So there are times when I feel all I've done is talk about myself and it makes
me uncomfortable in the end. The only option open to me in these circumstances
is to force the direction of the conversation on them. When I've just uttered
the last word to the answer of the question they've asked, they ask me a
follow-up before I've taken my next breath, so I'd have to force "enough about
me, what's your experience with ____?" When I run into such a person, I
usually give up and just answer all their questions. It's not that I don't
want to know about them.
Do you find any truth in this or has it ever happened to you, on either end of
the spectrum?
~~~
1123581321
I've experienced this. I think you understand it well enough. It is
uncomfortable because it is a one-sided conversation and when you know that
the person might think they are manipulating you into liking them, it is hard
not to feel exploited.
I'm happy to say that some of the worst offenders in my life have improved
their style over the years and respond to my answers with anecdotes of their
own. They might still think they're getting me to like them but the
conversation is interesting enough that I'm not annoyed by it.
~~~
personlurking
> respond to my answers with anecdotes of their own
That's actually the only saving grace to these situations. Glad you mentioned
it.
------
non_sequitur
I learned a while ago that just asking questions isn't enough - sometimes
people don't want to talk, or are really boring, there's too big a group to
focus on one person, or just constantly interrogating a person gets weird,
etc. So you should have some good stories in your back pocket as well. If you
think about the most popular people you know, they aren't well received in
social settings because they pepper everyone with questions - they're usually
funny, chatty, quick witted, and can either carry or let someone else carry a
conversation. Be like that guy/gal, not the one that can only ask questions.
~~~
snarf21
I think the hardest part is finding the topic that they are interested. Most
people will ramble on about their greatest interest forever. You can't start
with "How's work?" or "Watch anything good on Netflix lately?". You have to
move into something else like "What have you been doing in your free time?"
and then follow up on that. Odds are that they will lead you right to their
greatest interest almost immediately. I think _questions only_ has to be
clarified with positive reinforcement. If they say they like X, your
_question_ needs to validate them too. "I'm not familiar with X but that
sounds really interesting. What is the coolest thing about X to you?"
------
superasn
Oh internet and self-help gurus. Why do you have to be the "best" at
everything and get the most of out stuff.
It's like those things they teach you that before giving a bad review first
start with the good points then add a "but". Sound great in theory but just
absurd when you realize someone is doing it to you on purpose.
You know you can do all this and create great rapport and win the title for
best conversationalist but if this is not your nature you still won't have fun
nor create that connection which you can have by just being you, with all your
flaws, moles and warts. If you're not a total asshole, people like you anyway.
Just imagine if your friends were like this. Trying to be the best
conversationalist they can be with you instead of being the usual silly
dickheads they generally are..
~~~
raphar
>Oh internet and self-help gurus. Why do you have to be the "best" at
everything and get the most of out stuff.
The article's content is ok. But what called my attention was that every
single paragraph links to a source, author or better: an amazon book page. Its
like the index page of a book on the subject!
pd: 15 mbyte & 420 requests to load the page
------
nunez
Skimming through the article, I observed that they missed the most important
step one must do to get better at talking to people:
Practice!
One doesn't learn how to write code without writing code. One also doesn't
learn how to tie their shoes without actually tying shoes. So it follows that
one doesn't learn how to become good at people without talking to people.
You've gotta go out! And I'm not talking about grabbing a drink and staying on
the sidelines or going to that conference and being glued to your Mac the
entire time. You've gotta approach people, and you have to get rejected.
People will walk away. People will ask to be excused. This stuff hurts, but
just like a startup, you treat the mistakes as learnings and try again next
time. It helps _a lot_ to have a buddy that will help you through the process
and give you feedback, since learning on your own (like I did) generally
sucks.
How did I learn how to talk to people? I approached _hundreds_ of women to
start conversations with them during the morning rush and on the street.
nothing deep; usually stuff about food. My dating skills improved slightly,
but my conversation skills went through the roof.
There are other things to keep in mind, too. People care way more appearance
than they let on, so dressing well and staying healthy go a long way to help
you be more. Body language is also something that people look out for without
knowing that they're looking out for it. Fixing posture goes a long way
towards fixing this too.
~~~
rimliu
Please, don't practice on me. Maybe to some it is fine to approach people and
be rejected, but for me it is not ok being interrupted by random strangers.
~~~
nunez
Most people are actually okay with it as long as the intro is good!
------
dkarapetyan
There was that one time I observed a peculiar quality about a certain CEO. No
matter what he was talking about it somehow would always circle back to
talking about whatever company he was currently at and the conversation would
always end with a joke and hearty laugh for all involved. This happened
consistently enough that I thought it was a pre-determined act on his part.
Once I realized he was always practicing I kinda stopped talking to the guy
because there was never any genuine interaction. He was always on the job and
he was always practicing selling. Every conversation was just another
opportunity for him to practice his messaging. I dubbed this mode of
interacting and talking ceoesque.
~~~
dilemma
Yeah... who wants to talk to someone who's always trying to close you?
This is the problem and the danger with how to make friends and influence
people. People will see through you.
------
jokoon
I started relationships at the age of 24, I was really impressed how easy it
was for me. I always thought I was some kind of nerd loser, which I still feel
I am.
During all my life my method was always to slowly ask personal questions and
"open up" people, let them talk about themselves, their job and skills.
What people love is to let them talk about their problems, without criticizing
them about it. I think I learned that from therapy. Once you do that, people
are hooked and it's a pretty good way to learn about them. It's not
manipulative as long as you don't exploit it against them or for your
interest, which is really evil (and they will notice it very quickly).
Then of course, you should always open up yourself if the person opened up to
you, and that can be difficult, generally you should talk about yourself
without necessarily waiting for the other person to ask.
I always felt those things were kind of manipulative, but I asked and it seems
they're not.
------
vinceguidry
Everything about this is highly contextual and varies across cultures. Smiling
in some situations makes you look powerful, in many others it makes you look
weak. Being very animated can make you look carefree in some situations and
just wild in others.
The more time I spend in cultures that I didn't grow up in, the more convinced
I become that there just aren't any universalities in this direction. Any
attempt to do so is to try to generalize over all human behavior and the
effort will either be wrong, being that there will be some cultures or
situations where the rule doesn't hold, or it'll be useless, essentially
telling you what you already know.
~~~
shiz
I'd like to know the culture where smiling is seen differently. It is the
global symbol of happiness and tells everybody on earth "i'm a friend" or at
least "i'm friendly".
~~~
Broken_Hippo
There are a lot of examples of the differing meaning of a smile when you
google it. Sometimes it is simply not appropriate to smile. I'm not sure if
there are any culture that sees them as entirely evil, but a few do have a
concept of an evil grin, a concept that sits alongside the smiles being
friendly. It doesn't seem to be a stretch that a mistimed smile might make you
look like a loon and other such differing beliefs.
[https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/05/culture-...](https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/05/culture-
and-smiling/483827/) [https://blog.allpsych.com/smiling-means-different-
things-in-...](https://blog.allpsych.com/smiling-means-different-things-in-
different-cultures/) [https://www.translatemedia.com/us/blog-us/the-meaning-
of-a-s...](https://www.translatemedia.com/us/blog-us/the-meaning-of-a-smile-
in-different-cultures/)
~~~
shiz
Of course, when someone tells you his mother died and you smile like an idiot,
it surely will not create a positive effect.
The way I understood OP, it seemed as if - in a normal setting - smiling would
be frowned upon when talking to people in general in some places... which I
find hard to believe.
------
kovek
À lot of the discussions here remind me of the book How to Win Friends and
Influence People. I recommend it. It's a short and easy read, since there are
no technical terms. It's a lot of good examples that show what works and what
does not in communicating with others.
Also, check out the list of advice from this book that is probably online
somewhere. I think it's important to read the examples in the book to
understand the list.
------
brownbat
> How can you strategically make a good impression? From the outset, frame the
> conversation with a few well-rehearsed sentences regarding how you want to
> be perceived.
Klosterman comes to the same realization in Sex, Drugs, and Cocoa-Puffs,
though from an unlikely angle--the dawn of reality television.
On The Real World, producers had no time to explain anyone's personality in
depth, so they boiled each housemate down to a simple stereotype and
selectively edited to play up that caricature. On the one hand, it was a trick
of production that was massively distorting and harmful to several (most?) of
the housemates.
On the other hand, we're all just like the producers when recalling our own
interactions.
Like a 20-minute episode, there's just too much ground to cover to get a
perfect reproduction of any person's life in a first meeting. A short working
draft is the best anyone can hope for. If you help people form that, you can
nudge it in a positive direction while also making yourself more memorable.
------
mythrwy
In some ways being a person people love to talk to is a burden. It takes time.
Sometimes it's worth it. Quite often (and this sounds cold but it's true) it
isn't.
Other people do make life good though and it's certainly a valuable skill.
Just, it comes at a price.
------
AndrewOMartin
I've been the recipient of active listening on more than one occasion and it's
made me want to tear that persons lungs out through their mouth. It feels like
you're the victim of a corrupt bureaucrat's evil stalling tactic.
~~~
meesterdude
Then they're doing it wrong - which is not uncommon. When I learned about
active listening, there where a number of adults i remembered growing up who
actively listened, and they were the most engaging people.
~~~
AndrewOMartin
It sounds like you're saying then they're doing it wrong - which is not
uncommon. When you learned about active listening, there where a number of
adults you remembered growing up who actively listened, and they were the most
engaging people.
------
hoodoof
I know a small number of very charismatic people. It seems to just be a
natural function of who they are.
I have always wondered if there was a way to "become charismatic".
~~~
CuriouslyC
You can definitely learn charisma. I wouldn't call myself a smooth talker (I'm
way too frank), but I've got a presence that people respond to. More
importantly, 20 years ago I was basically a shut in with crippling social
anxiety.
I've found that the big key is getting your mind in order. You can work
forever on what to say, but if your head isn't right it won't work. On the
other hand, someone who is totally centered can say the most random things and
people will still like them. Old buddhist monks demonstrate this beautifully.
~~~
copperx
Do you mind expounding on "getting your mind in order"?
~~~
CuriouslyC
That is going to be a different for everyone. For me, it involved
systematically examining my beliefs and feelings, and discarding the ones that
didn't serve me. Additionally, I've found that there is a certain flow to
life; you can struggle against it, get carried away by it, or harness it.
Accepting the way things are and learning to surf the currents rather than
raging against them helped a lot.
If you want a shortcut, in terms of interpersonal skills the two highest
impact changes for me have been:
1\. Derive your personal value entirely from within 2\. Develop compassion for
other people
If you nail these two changes, you will be attractive. You might not be
"persuasive" like a salesman, but that is a specialized skill-set that needs
to be developed on its own.
------
bitL
Am I the only person that feels "hacking other people" for my own benefit is
wrong?
~~~
Baeocystin
It's not a hack. It's SYN/ACK.
~~~
pwdisswordfish
You know you're in a place for nerds when you see social interaction being
explained in terms of TCP/IP instead of the other way around.
------
YCode
Somewhat related...
Dale Carnegie, this article, et. al describe various methods to be liked,
listened to, etc. that all basically revolve around the idea that you should
make the conversation about them and their needs. Even smiling is a small step
away from outright saying you like them and are willing to listen.
One thing I've found though is that this can be mentally exhausting. It starts
to feel like the people around you are starving for attention and suddenly
they've found an oasis of it.
But over even a short time the entropy of being on the giving end of nearly
every interaction with someone creates a sort of mental energy vacuum.
Certainly I can't be the only one who has experienced this -- how do you
maintain your energy or sense of self when you are consistently trying to meet
other people's needs?
~~~
jogjayr
> how do you maintain your energy or sense of self when you are consistently
> trying to meet other people's needs?
Some people thrive off interactions like this, I think. If that's not you (and
I count myself in that category also) then I think the "best" compromise might
be to turn it on only when and where it matters (even though that sounds awful
and self-serving). That probably means with valued friends and close family,
and people you're trying to impress for some reason (personal or
professional).
------
virtualritz
Is it just me or is this just a hidden advertisement for the book "It's Not
All About "Me": The Top Ten Techniques for Building Quick Rapport with Anyone"
by Robin Dreke [1]?
The book is mentioned (and linked) several times in the article and in
articles the article itself cites as sources (and links to).
[1][https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0060YIBLK](https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0060YIBLK)
------
hamandcheese
"Ask people questions since people love talking about themselves" is common
conversational advice I hear.
In general I agree, but it's a bit disheartening when you realize that many
people are so happy to talk about themselves that they never bother to ask you
about yourself.
------
EagleVega
I feel like this article is outlining how to fake a lot of things... It
emphasizes rote lines. It feels shallow. However, I think it hints at what it
takes to be a good conversationalist: a deep and genuine interest in people.
That coupled with a broad knowledge allows you to find what someone is
interested in and learn from their perspective while adding some to theirs.
This is the core of solid communication and conversation.
------
nommm-nommm
>Suspend your ego. Avoid correcting people
This is actually an important thing to do and difficult for many of us
"hacker" types that think more analytically.
------
VeronicaHadley
This one is the best from my recent readings. Communication is one of the
important aspect of every soul prevailing on earth and we / humans are special
one. Now from the business standpoint, it is always better to have good
communicator who can negotiate with properly. I just want to add my words at
the 'Silence' section; my viewpoints say, silence can be better than words
sometimes.
------
jackskell
As an introvert and someone who cares about my privacy and doesn't like to
reveal personal details, I find it easier to simply keep the conversational
ball in the other person's court.
This seems to equal being a good listener.
The trick is to learn to close the conversation when you are done with it, and
avoid useless prattle from the other person.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Startup Quote: Garry Tan, co-founder, Posterous - raychancc
http://startupquote.com/post/4627167158
======
raychancc
Remember: It’s not innovation until it gets built.
\- Garry Tan (@garrytan)
<http://startupquote.com/post/4627167158>
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
How do other startups handle NYC 'Summer Fridays?' - danielodio
I've been hearing that some(many?) companies in NYC (mostly agency & media, it seems) have 'Summer Fridays' policies where they give Friday afternoons off to their employees.<p>As a west coast startup guy I don't totally get this, and wanted to know how startups in NYC handle it.<p>Specifically I'd love to get feedback from anyone who:<p>- Has a startup w/ offices in both SF & NYC. Do you do it for NYC employees? For all employees?<p>- Has a startup that's <i>not</i> doing this in NYC (and whether it causes any friction w/ your employees)<p>It seems a bit crazy to me to do it, esp. for a startup that's gunning hard, but I'm sure it's an NYC cultural thing. Just trying to understand the culture and how others handle it.
======
twunde
I've worked at a few companies including a several startups and my current
company is the only place where summer fridays are a thing. Even then, last
year, the tech department was usually the last to leave. Keep in mind that at
some companies, summer fridays just means that you can dress down and wear
shorts.
The companies that do summer fridays are companies where developers are
working ~40 hour work weeks. These companies are usually places where they
expect employees to last several years and often are profitable.
Why do companies do summer fridays? In the northeast, you typically have about
2-3 months where the weather is nice enough to go to the beach. If you've got
kids, this is their summer vacation. Plus in many metro areas there are a lot
of concerts and events going on during the summer. It's a nice way of letting
your people enjoy their lives instead of just living for work.
~~~
danielodio
RE: "Why do companies do summer fridays? In the northeast, you typically have
about 2-3 months where the weather is nice enough to go to the beach."
Yeah so this is exactly why I'm wrestling with it. I totally get that it's an
opportunity to enjoy the weather in the NE, and the culture is to hit the
Hamptons or Fire Island etc., and that a lot of other colleagues are out there
too. But another key part of what you said is "[These companies] often are
profitable." So I'm super curious to know what high-growth, private, not-yet-
profitable startups in NYC do.
I guess one way to think about it is: In SF many of us take 3-5 days off, at
once, for Burning Man. In NYC they space it out over summer Friday afternoons.
------
danielodio
Update: Lots of opinions here. I posted this question to a few startup FB
groups. Here are some of the answers I got from founder CEOs in those groups:
\- CEO of an NYC startup: "We certainly don't have a summer Friday policy, but
I'd say in general I don't love Friday afternoons. People definitely leave
pretty early. We had to move our meetings back to the afternoons." [I assume
he's saying they did that to keep employees from leaving]
\- European startup founder: "Same thing at publishing companies in London,
more or less all year long. I'm not sure why there's those policies in the
media space. I'm not planning on setting up anything like that… we're not a
billion dollar company yet"
\- Startup founder: "Yeah if you do summer Fridays are for banks, big cos, you
know the place where people take this for granted... do not recruit people who
want this."
\- Startup founder: "As an east coast company we don't do that, but there
certainly is an expectation to take more vacations and have more flexibility
during the summer months. The main and obvious difference here versus the west
coast is that you guys have nice weather year round"
\- Startup CTO: "[At my last large media company gig we] had Summer Fridays
but you'd visit the office at 5pm on Fridays and we'd usually all be there. To
me, it's like the startups that have no vacation policy ("if you want to go,
go"). Trust your employees. If you hired right, they'll appreciate the gesture
but only take you up on it when it makes sense. That said, when people do use
it, I think the 'Summer Fridays' don't guarantee there are post-work events
(people could get an early start on skipping town)."
\- Startup accelerator founder: "This is not some new phenomenon; This has
been going on with startups for many years - even pre dotcom. Work always
happens at these post work events and people take time to recharge - if you
hired right, you need not worry, as people with shit to do stay and do it, and
others get more efficient, if even for a short while. It is also a great time
to recruit folks and I know I have seen a lot of folks hiring recently."
------
seiji
If your company depends on controlling people's hours when they'd rather
actually just leave, other more disastrous interpersonal issues are in play.
I often get more work done walking around the park and thinking about better
approaches to a problem than I do by sitting and trying to grind on a problem
incessantly for hours.
If you can't trust your employees to do the right thing, you have captive
slaves, not useful creative problem solvers.
------
NathanKP
Easy solution used by the NYC startup I work at:
Schedule a company standup meeting at 4:30 or so. Everyone cracks open a beer
to enjoy while presenting what they have been working on for the past week.
The standup lasts 30 mins or so, after which those who want to leave take off,
and those that are going to continue working usually grab another beer and
head back to the computer.
------
ericlitman
Most of the larger media agencies offer some number of Fridays to be used
flexibly as days off during the summer. It's never all Fridays, and the
concession is that it never interfere with work or deliverables. I don't know
of any startups that offer this.
~~~
danielodio
Thanks for the 411, Eric. Esp helpful re: "I don't know of any startups that
offer this"
------
idunno246
It's not fridays off in my experience. It's you can work your friday afternoon
hours during the rest of the week. 4 days for 9 hours and 1 day for 4.
Alternatively, if you get your work done, its the same as flex time.
------
bgilroy26
I'm not a startup employee, but I can tell you that there are a lot of offices
in NYC that are 1/3 to 1/2 empty on Fridays in the summer.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
RentHop (YC S09): Easier Apartment Hunting, Without The Broker Fee - jasonlbaptiste
http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/07/11/renthop-easier-apartment-hunting-without-the-broker-fee/
======
leelin
Hello HN, and thank you for the kind comments! I'm one of the founders of
RentHop.com.
To clarify, there are many honest brokers with exclusive no-fee listings,
especially in certain neighborhoods such as West Village and Midtown East. If
we banned even these brokers, then we would be missing out on a legitimate
subset of the available no-fee apartments.
Our current policy is that we will only accept brokers with no-fee exclusives
to post on our site (as opposed to a broker with an open listing, which is
easy to detect).
In short, the legal landlord gave that broker the exclusive right to be the
rental agent and-or property manager. Think of them as mom & pop versions of
the big corporate leasing offices; the real landlord specifically does not
want to be involved in the leasing process and paid to outsource it.
~~~
fallentimes
You're doing a great service. Even Craigslist NYC is a nightmare with all the
bait and switch tactics.
------
apgwoz
As someone who just moved to NYC, I can definitely say this would definitely
have been extremely useful. We ended up paying 12% to a broker, which we did
only because we didn't wanna make more trips back and forth from Philadelphia
to look at apartments. In a few years, I hope RentHop is still around and has
more market share so we can use it.
------
mshafrir
Here's a NYTimes article about RentHop:
<http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/08/realestate/08rent.html>
~~~
leelin
Ah, I'm glad we're not in the Wayback Machine because our site back then was
pretty embarrassing!
I'd say over 80% of what you see today was done after we left our jobs to do
this full time.
------
indiejade
What is most interesting about this startup idea is the actual _structure_ of
the renting / real estate biz and how much commissions are a part of it. If
these "brokers" have so much time to spend spamming craigslist (not just in
NYC, but everywhere), there is something VERY wrong with the industry. Of
course, I've been saying this for a long time. Happy to see a company actually
doing something about it.
Good luck guys! I will be rooting for you.
------
utsmokingaces
Great Idea. I suspect you will be do most of your marketing in NYC. I will be
starting a local business startup too. I am curious to learn how you market in
a big city such as NYC.
PS I added the site to <http://appuseful.com/app/n/Rent-hop> .
------
mattmcknight
I'd like to see something come out for the commercial real estate market. It's
really hard to shop online (without paying a monthly fee to costar or loopnet)
for access to information that is freely available.
~~~
padmapper
Would you mind sharing where commercial real estate listings data is freely
available? I've thought about expanding PadMapper to include it.
~~~
mattmcknight
From the leasing companies. For example, if you go the CBRE site, you can view
all of their properties there, via a software service provided by loopnet.
There's definitely room to start another service by getting those listings out
there to a broader audience.
------
tptacek
The Chicago rental market --- the third-largest metro market in the country
--- is nothing like the NYC rental market. Brokers here are free, paid by
developers and landlords. I've had extremely excellent luck working with them,
landing 3 excellent places inside of a week each time, at Craigslist-
competitive prices.
I'm sure there's a long-term play here in NYC and maybe SF and LA, and I'm
sure that's a find bootstrap to a long-term offering nationwide, but I just
want to chime in with the observation that the NYC rental market is an
anomaly. I don't think we have the pain RentHop tries to solve in Chicago.
~~~
sachinag
We don't, but Boston, Washington DC, and many college towns do. Hell, I'd say
that even Evanston is a bit skewed that way. In the city, certain pockets like
the Southport Corridor probably exhibit some of the cutthroat nature of NYC
because we're so over-condo'ed in those areas. But Chicagoans, we just drive
everywhere. :)
------
aberman
Wow...first time I have seen the HN community more critical than the TC
community.
~~~
gruseom
The most critical comments are coming from several accounts that were created
in the last hour. I wonder if someone is gaming the thread.
~~~
pg
Sure enough. They were all from the same ip address, and so were nearly all
the upvotes on them.
------
vermontdevil
I saw this one a while back: <http://www.habitastic.com/>
looks similar. Seems like this type will heat up due to the decline of
homeowner market
------
Caligula
Looks very slick. I wonder if they are allowed crawling other sites like
craigslist to add content to theirs. I realize most craigslist ad's for NY
dont list addresses but some must.
------
vaksel
not a fan of the homepage, lots of white space and a single pic of an empty
apartment(9/10 refreshes).
the browse listings page would work much better as the homepage
------
MtL
Unfortunately it is useless for me, as it is NYC specific. For us located in
other areas, padmapper is more useful.
------
anamax
In what parts of the US are broker fees for rentals common?
~~~
leelin
Every rental broker charges a fee for their services, the difference is
whether the renter or landlord pays for it. It's a matter of local custom and
market conditions, and New York City has traditionally been very heavily
skewed towards renters paying.
------
embeddedradical
its always san fran or nyc....damn.
~~~
padmapper
<http://www.padmapper.com> (my hobby site) has a bunch of other cities, if
you're looking for a place.
~~~
embeddedradical
doesn't have my city (santa barbara), but the site looks good; good work, and
good luck.
~~~
padmapper
Thanks! I just added santa barbara for you, it should populate with listings
soon.
~~~
embeddedradical
just tired it, it worked! thanks! bookmarked! wow, this experience rocks,
especially considering i've wanted exactly this for quite some time --- thanks
so much. once again, you rock.
~~~
padmapper
Great, glad it's working! Please let me know if you have any suggestions for
improvements. Good luck with your hunt!
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
AP Twitter hack causes panic on Wall Street and sends Dow plunging - 7c8011dda3f3b
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2013/apr/23/ap-tweet-hack-wall-street-freefall
======
rcirka
Kind of reminds me of the movie "Taking of Pelham 123", where a stunt is
created so that someone can profit by shorting the stock market. I wonder who
made out on this one.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Scott Adams: The Imagination Interface - cwan
http://dilbert.com/blog/entry/the_imagination_interface/
======
pavel_lishin
> I wouldn't be able to get through an entire press conference without saying
> "Blow me."
This is why I'm not invited to sit in on meetings with clients.
------
danilocampos
I'm reading this just at the right moment. I've been staring at a long mental
list of skills I don't have. Normally this wouldn't be so gloomy, but when the
things you don't know how to do seem like important solutions to problems that
exist right now, it can be a bit discouraging.
The post reads a little flip but it feels like a genuine look into how Adams
works. I'm going to try it out.
Reminds me of a little mental hack I picked up after watching _Thank You for
Smoking_. Never say "I don't know," which sounds defeatist and permanent.
Always say "I don't have that information," which sounds transient and
correctable. It's a better position from the outside, sure, but most
importantly it keeps you hungry to continue learning.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
The Incels Getting Extreme Plastic Surgery to Become ‘Chads’ - SonicSoul
https://www.thecut.com/2019/05/incel-plastic-surgery.html
======
Porthos9K
Any male "incel" who could have sex with other men but doesn't because they
insist on being heterosexual is not a real incel. They have options; they just
aren't man enough to exploit them.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Redditor explains why Ayn Rand's ideas are wrong. - pavs
http://www.reddit.com/r/philosophy/comments/cvb8l/can_anyone_here_say_why_rands_ideas_are_wrong/c0vjnyt
======
byrneseyeview
This is the standard critique. We all pick premises; we don't all admit it.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Exploiting Coroutines to Attack the “Killer Nanoseconds” [pdf] - mpweiher
http://www.vldb.org/pvldb/vol11/p1702-jonathan.pdf
======
jimbo1qaz
This title was confusing, the terms "exploiting" and "attack" made me expect
another Hyperthreading-related security exploit (though the paper is actually
a performance optimization)
------
akubera
Gor Nishanov, one of the authors, talks about this in his CppCon2018 talk
[https://youtu.be/j9tlJAqMV7U](https://youtu.be/j9tlJAqMV7U) (jump to ~12:33
to skip background).
It amounts to using CPU prefetch instructions with C++ coroutines to simulate
hyperthreading in software by scheduling instructions around cache misses (but
is potentially better than hyperthreads because it's not limited to 2/core)
~~~
int0x80
I haven't read the article or video. But regarding prefetching triggerd by
software (programmer) instead of by the hw, this is a very informative read,
with a lot of numbers and tests/profiles:
https://lwn.net/Articles/444336/
https://lwn.net/Articles/444346/
~~~
tuukkah
Your links show with benchmarks that software prefetching is not always
useful, the example being a for loop to traverse a linked list in the Linux
kernel.
However, the article at hand shows with benchmarks that software prefetching
can be very beneficial in common algorithms such as hash probe, binary search,
Masstree and Bw-tree, even when concurrency is implemented in a straight-
forward way using (stackless) coroutines.
~~~
int0x80
The links are not only about a loop. The general conclusion is that making
better informed decisions about whether to prefecth or not is very hard and
that the CPU will have most of the time way more information to make a good
informed decision. It also says that unless you proove by benchmarks that it
makes sense, it is probably wrong.
Now. This is of course a general case. If you control the whole algo and data
structures during the execution, a well crafted prefectch /can/ be beneficial.
Again, the general idea of the links I posted is that /generally/ the CPU has
more info of the /overall/ system state to make a correct prefetching choice.
I think that info/links are usefull/interesting even if they do not apply to
the specific case in TFA.
Clarifying a bit more: I didn't post that to contradict the article but just
to provide a bit of related info.
------
fulafel
Does anyone know about earlier work similar to "asynchronous memory access
chaining"? Sounds like there must have been stuff done in eg. VLIW static
scheduling. And in compilers for highly memory-parallel architectures like
Tera MTA. And in GPU compilers.
I have a recollection that some static scheduling compilers could run
------
brian-armstrong
This is a very cool idea, and I wonder if eventually we'll see new tooling
spring up to support this.
Running coroutines like this seems like it would potentially create more cache
pressure. Is the idea that you'll execute instructions you already have
loaded, so you won't incur any cache misses for instructions?
~~~
yxhuvud
It is more about memory pressure than instruction pressure - the idea is that
when an algorithm finds itself having to fetch something from memory, it can
issue a prefetch, then take a step back and handle other requests while
waiting for the result.
How this would fare in a real world scenario that isn't a benchmark but in a
system that is also doing other stuff at the same time is anyones guess
though.
~~~
tuukkah
Their benchmark is close to what a relational database does in the real world.
They also cite previous work "Interleaving with Coroutines: A Practical
Approach for Robust Index Joins", which implements this succesfully in the SAP
HANA column store.
I don't think it matters what else the system is doing as long as a complete
core is available for running this.
------
tuukkah
Cheap-enough coroutines seem to be new in C++ but what about other languages
such as Go, Rust, Haskell?
~~~
AlexanderDhoore
Go has channels which are much more like fibers. Full threads of their own
with actual stacks (which can be moved in Go).
If C++ or Rust ever get coroutines they will be more low-level. Just a control
flow construct which compiles coroutines down to state machines. So it's
concurrency, not parallelism. High performance for one thread, but less
powerful conceptually.
Rust used to have segmented stacks, but they removed it because performance
was unpredictable.
~~~
tuukkah
Rust seems to have stackless coroutines as an experimental language feature:
[https://doc.rust-lang.org/nightly/unstable-book/language-
fea...](https://doc.rust-lang.org/nightly/unstable-book/language-
features/generators.html)
------
busterb
The Intel IXP Microengine (Now Netronome?) architecture supported this
explicitly. You could schedule a memory read explicitly, do other things, then
come back. Each core was also 8-way multi-threaded, and you could yield
explicitly to the next thread.
------
fanf2
This could also be described as hyperthreading in software
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Britain’s teeth aren’t that bad – but what of their rotten history? - pepys
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/dec/18/britains-teeth-dentistry-american-wits
======
switch007
What is rotten is overcharging by dental practices. The NHS fee structure is
extremely simple [1], yet because people do not research the charges,
receptionists are able to easily mislead people.
Often the dentists do NHS and private work and they either tell flat out lies
such as "that's not covered on the NHS", and/or suggest their
brother/sister/best friend does the work privately) or just makes up random
fees.
[http://www.nhs.uk/chq/Pages/1781.aspx?CategoryID=74](http://www.nhs.uk/chq/Pages/1781.aspx?CategoryID=74)
~~~
10dpd
I don't know why this is being downvoted, this is completely accurate for the
English NHS where the UDA system is used (Northern Ireland and Scotland have a
different fee per item system).
Many English NHS dentists encourage patients to return for multiple treatments
instead of doing all the work in one treatment.
~~~
IanCal
I'm not sure what you mean, things are charged by the course, no?
[http://www.nhs.uk/NHSEngland/AboutNHSservices/dentists/Pages...](http://www.nhs.uk/NHSEngland/AboutNHSservices/dentists/Pages/nhs-
dental-charges.aspx)
>You will not be charged for individual items within a course of treatment.
Depending on what you need to have done, you should only ever be asked to pay
one charge for each complete course of treatment, even if you need to visit
your dentist more than once to finish it. A course of treatment is finished
when your dentist considers good oral health has been achieved.
Have I misunderstood what you meant?
~~~
ymse
I'm guessing that was GPs point, that receptionists and doctors will happily
fail to inform patients of this, and rather make separately charged
appointments.
While I haven't been to the dentist yet, after living in UK for a year I can
testify that the bar for cheating or misleading customers is _very_ low.
As an example, taxi drivers usually pick a longer route than necessary,
sometimes driving around the whole city. Especially if they perceive that you
are not local.
~~~
switch007
Yes, that was exactly my point. And you are right abut the bar being very low!
It drives me crazy
~~~
IanCal
A record of the work done will be on file, have you taken this to the CQC or
regulatory body?
~~~
switch007
I appreciate the onus is on me to provide evidence, and you've perhaps
interpreted my comments as personal experiences only. I was referring to of
cases of people I know - at least 3 instances this year alone - and I was not
saying that every practice overcharges everyone.
However I myself have not been ripped off by an NHS dentist - mainly because I
am aware of the bands. I would certainly take it further if they tried to.
~~~
IanCal
I guess I'm finding it just surprising, I've never experienced anything like
that, nor have I ever heard of it from anyone I know. I know plenty of people
inside the NHS too, as well as simply many people who will have used these
services. I'd have expected to see more problems if there really was a "very
low bar for cheating customers".
There are regulatory bodies specifically for dentistry as well as for the NHS
and sales and advertising. I would heavily suggest that they report this,
there seems to be places to do so and I consider this an extremely important
issue to solve if it's happening.
I'm not saying you're wrong, just that your friends experiences are so vastly
different from my friends.
------
robk
Missing teeth is one thing but British orthodontics are far less commonly used
than in America. America also has a far higher negative stigma against gaps or
unstraight teeth.
------
nakedrobot2
They ARE that bad. Anecdata perhaps, but come on - Americans really do have
whiter teeth. At least the "privileged class" does. Downvote me to hell if you
like still, I have lived both in UK and US for a decade and yes it is true,
British teeth are nearly as bad as Japanese teeth (who don't use any flouride
in their toothpaste, and it shows by the age of 40 or 50)
~~~
noja
Hollywood white teeth == healthy?! How? To me they look bizarre, do normal
Americans really have teeth like that? (serious question)
~~~
swozey
I'm an American with $10k or so into Orthodontia to make my teeth straight (I
had gaps that were a big self-confidence issue for me) but no, seeing someone
with insanely bleached white teeth definitely stands out in my head and always
looks strange to me. I think there is a pretty big line between Hollywood
White and Smoker Yellow.
To give a perspective, if it's needed, when I was in middle school (6th-8th)
just about every single one of my friends at that point had either had, or was
currently wearing braces of some sort.
I've now had braces 3 times (Invisalign actually) because my teeth won't stop
moving. If I go a few days without wearing a retainer (I wear it nightly) they
look different. A month or two without (I've lost the retainer before) and I'm
going for round 4. Not sure if this is a genetic thing, or what, my cousins
and sister have had the same thing happen, but I know plenty of other people
who have never worn their retainers and barely had any movement.
~~~
ahoy
"Braces" culture is interesting. I grew up in the rural southeast of the US,
and while braces weren't unheard of they were uncommon. I have friends from
new england who reported the opposite - most children, even those from poorer
families, had braces.
~~~
swozey
Driving to the orthodontist was a major pain for my parents, so maybe that had
something to do with it. They had to take off work early, pick me up at
school, take me to the Ortho and wait around for an hour while the braces were
aligned - EVERY month. I'd imagine it's even more of a pain for those in rural
areas who have less options. The orthos next to schools made out like bandits.
But my parents were also Military, so maybe that's just my experience.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Don't Terminate People's Internet Connections - venti
https://labs.ripe.net/Members/job_snijders/dont-terminate-peoples-internet-connections
======
nreece
Here in Australia, a few responsible providers like Aussie Broadband have
already announced unmetered data usage and temporarily stopping all service
suspensions.
[https://www.aussiebroadband.com.au/blog/aussie-broadband-
ann...](https://www.aussiebroadband.com.au/blog/aussie-broadband-announced-
covid-19-response/)
Edit: The real test though will be the bandwidth of our gov-sponsored,
substandard, widely FTTN (instead of full FTTP).
~~~
arcboii92
As a kiwi it blows my mind how bad your broadband is over there. My cousin
recently moved to some rural Aussie town and will be getting 25 megabit, tops.
Here in NZ we're rolling out 4 gigabit connections nationwide over the next 6
months.
EDIT: props for getting rid of limits and disconnects though. NZ providers are
just saying we'll be able to cope with everyone working from home because we
have a fancy network.
~~~
mandelbrotwurst
At least some of that could be due to the fact that Australia is way larger
geographically though, right? It's a lot more cable to run.
~~~
stephen_g
Not at all. NZ is even less urbanised than Australia. The long-distance
transit cables between cities in Australia all mostly already existed before
the NBN even started.
You could cover more than 80% of our population just cabling up (literally)
about half a dozen reasonably dense cities.
The actual reason is political. One side of politics privatised the state
owned monopoly telco, creating a single huge, anti-competitive behemoth. That
made progress with the internet stagnate for a decade. Then the other side got
in, tried to work with the telco but they wouldn’t budge, and then surprised
everybody by deciding to just build a provider-neutral network that was FTTP
to 90-93% of the population. This was going fine - a few months behind
schedule but on budget (projected at AU$44.1bn) after a few years.
But the opposition managed to convince a bunch of people in the media that it
was hugely over-budget (despite the fact it wasn’t, _and_ that all their
financials were on the public record) and that a sensible solution was to stop
that, and instead buy the old copper networks off the incumbent provider and
spend a few billion to do a bit of an upgrade. They were “absolutely confident
25 megs is enough for anyone” and said this would cost max $29bn. They won
Government, turned the network on its head and it’s just been one problem
after another with huge widespread service quality issues, massive cost
overruns, delays etc.
So now the cost of their “more sensible, cheaper, and quicker to build”
network is nearing $60bn and finishing two years later than the original FTTP
schedule (before they won Government, the party that wrecked the project
promised to have it done by the end of 2016!)
So it’s just a big mess. Nobody really knows why they chose to do what they
did when pretty much all the experts said to just continue with FTTP (they
paid some consultants with links to their party to say their idea was great to
get around that). Some say it was business links between party members and the
incumbent telco, or the cable TV network they own half of. Others say it was
because they had a deal with Murdoch (the leader of the opposition actually
happened to have lunch with him the day before they announced their policy)
because he owns the other half of the cable TV network. Perhaps it was just
because they couldn’t accept that it was a good idea the way it was...
------
Stranger43
If the current strategy of making telecommuting the default takes hold post
corvid-19 the governments of the industrialized world is going to be forced to
treat internet the same way it treats other core infrastructure like roads or
railways which means that nationalization will happen if the industry fail to
deliver high speed and low prices to the undeserved rural areas.
~~~
whatshisface
I'm not an expert, but my local MUD board has made basically no improvements
since the invention of plumbing. I happen to know how their systems work and
they are designed to be the deadest-simple things that will work reliably
forever. There's no such thing as a "high performance sewage system" unless
you count a really big one as high performance. This attitude generalizes to
civil engineers in general who prefer safety over experimentation.
Now, let's compare this to my state and local governments. They're slow, hate
change, they're very careful about who to give money to because their main
problem is avoiding corruption. A prominent local politician campaigned and
won by promising to vote no on or veto everything. Every slow-down comes from
a totally legitimate anti-corruption rule and you aren't going to speed the
process up without creating Tammany Hall. My local politicians have only one
way to make the news, and that's by messing something up. There is no carrot,
only a stick.
Those two pictures align perfectly! As a result, my water service has never
been interrupted, and I have never gone to the polls with a negative idea
about anyone on the MUD board. It's a great system for everyone involved.
Now, my question is, how in the world does this work with internet service, an
area in which there are changes at a rate greater than once per century?
~~~
Stranger43
Plumbing or Highway constructions were/are highly complex high-tech when the
government decided the private industry was unable to maintain it to the
standards society needed 50+ years ago.
You might also be mistaking the fad driven high margin web for the rather
stable internet sitting underneath it, especially if you go all the way down
to the cable duct where a lot of rural houses are still using copper put down
in the 30ies.
The problem here is that laying down cable ducts requires both "right of
way"(often exclusively held by whoever laid down telephone cables in the
30ies) expensive survey work and real physical labor(someone have to an actual
trench), all of which requires capital and if you already own the copper cable
for no significant increase in revenue.
Things can be done with radio signals and i suspect whenever 6G mobile arrives
it might be municipal, but radio will likely never match the bandwidth
potential of even the first optical cables ever laid down.
------
z3t4
In this time and age I think an internet connection is a human right. There
should be free internet access, although limited bandwidth, for those who
cannot afford it.
~~~
mcalus3
In first world countries it is. In Poland since 2009: [http://www.prepaid-
wireless-internet-access.com/page/Poland+...](http://www.prepaid-wireless-
internet-access.com/page/Poland+-+Aero2+%28Free+Internet%29)
~~~
ge0rg
Not universally. In Germany, there is only a federal decree guaranteeing
56kbit/s modem speed, and this is not a human right but merely an obligation
to the state telco.
~~~
chewz
In Poland Aero won its licence on preferential terms with obligation to
provide free mobile internet for everyone who wants it.
It is limited and many people will rather choose commercial providers (faster,
more flexible plans) but it is working and is free.
PS. Germany has toll-free highways, Polish are quite expensive..
------
rhacker
Smart message, hopefully it is received at the cell phone companies. I noticed
TMobile is going to give everyone unlimited internet for a couple months
whether you have that plan or not - but they didn't say if they were going to
avoid shutoff's for no pay.
~~~
concerned_user
For cell phone companies physics is an actual limit, you can have multiple
cables laid to improve bandwidth but radio spectrum is only one. You can of
course keep making cells of the wireless network smaller and smaller but if
you go so small that say each house/apartment has personal one you have
invented wi-fi basically.
------
rolph
to all those who are blackhat , this is not the time to commit crimes and give
people reason to want to dissconnect services, if you are a criminal at least
realize that you are overtaxing your bread and butter. give it a break for a
while until the system can handle the load of light and dark together
~~~
skissane
Sadly, I think the people who are irresponsible enough to commit crimes in
normal times are also going to be irresponsible enough to commit crimes in a
crisis situation, and even to look for ways they can exploit a crisis to their
own benefit.
~~~
schoen
For example, there have been COVID-19 phishing and malware scams already. Yes,
people are using this pandemic to scam other people!
------
sys_64738
Internet should be viewed as a utility.
~~~
nradov
Most other utilities charge based on how much you consume.
~~~
AnthonyMouse
Most other utilities have cost structures that scale with actual consumption
rather than capacity.
If you use more water, even if there is plenty of delivery capacity, they
could literally run out of it. There is only so much in the reservoir.
If you use more electricity, even if there is plenty of transmission capacity,
they have to burn more fuel to generate it.
Transferring more bits doesn't risk depleting the supply of bits and doesn't
require burning more fuel. The worst it can do is consume all of the available
transmission capacity. But the amortized cost of a bit is very low -- if you
charged true cost then it wouldn't meaningfully deter usage, so you'd still
need about the same total amount of transmission capacity. At which point
charging for usage serves no legitimate purpose.
~~~
nradov
ISPs have cost structures that scale with actual usage. Cables and routers
have a fixed maximum capacity. Within that capacity each marginal bit is
virtually free, but as traffic increases they eventually they have to pay for
hardware upgrades. Cisco doesn't give routers away for free.
Legitimacy or lack thereof is irrelevant when setting prices.
~~~
AnthonyMouse
> ISPs have cost structures that scale with actual usage. Cables and routers
> have a fixed maximum capacity.
In other words, they don't scale with actual usage, they scale with maximum
capacity.
When you take your monthly cable bill and divide it by what it pays for,
almost all of it is going to things that don't scale with capacity. Having
routers that are ten times faster doesn't require you to have ten times as
many staff. They don't use ten times more electricity. They don't require ten
times more office buildings or utility poles.
If you take the cost of the capacity upgrade and amortize it over total usage
during peak hours, it adds a couple of bucks to the bill for the people who
use the most. But that's not enough to deter usage by so much that you don't
need the capacity upgrade. You need the capacity upgrade whether you charge
per bit or not. At which point the upgrade is a sunk cost and charging for
usage is inefficiently discouraging use of a resource that is being paid for
either way.
------
rammy1234
message needed in this time. Please don't think about money in times like
this. we need each other and we are all in this together. stay safe and let
other's be safe too.
------
Havoc
>We'll mop up society's collective bills at a later point in time
Very much doubt faceless corporations with automated billing cycles will take
such an altruistic view on this but perhaps I'll be surprised.
Most will do the exact opposite I believe. The last financial crash caused
massive cashflow issues for the big corps.
------
mirimir
> To illustrate, in the Netherlands we are in lockdown, because of the
> COVID-19 hazard: you are expected to _only_ leave your house if it is
> absolutely critical, such as to pick up food from the food distribution
> centers, to get meds, to go work in a hospital, etc.
You have food distribution centers?
I'm jealous.
~~~
MonaroVXR
I'm from the Netherlands, I think what he means is supermarket. Because
distribution centers deliver food to the super market itself instead of the
customers. Otherwise I'm not sure what he/she is talking about.
We have a full lockdown, yet everyone is outside and it's really crowded.
There aren't people that give a (...) About the situation, especially in this
city, because most of the people are higher educated.
~~~
eythian
We don't have a full lockdown. We have "work from home if you at all can, try
not to socialise, etc." It's certainly not "you may only go out if you're
going to the supermarket, pharmacy, hospital or you risk fines." Many shops
are still open, for example.
This said, I also wouldn't say it's really crowded, I took the tram in to the
office this morning to pick some stuff up (last day that'll be possible for a
few weeks) and it was very quiet.
------
projektfu
Funny language issue - as terminating a connection also means providing an
endpoint. Perhaps "Don't disconnect people's internet".
------
znpy
Here in italy Fastweb pledged set up a 1-million gigabytes traffc pool from
which all subscribers draw automatically. Once the million is over, traffic
will be drawn from the account (granted, Fastweb offers ~50 GB/month for
9.90/month).
This is for now, i wouldn't be surprised if they extend it later on.
The thing is, Fastweb is big in residential internet connection but pretty
minor as mobile provider.
No word from major providers (Vodafone, Tim, Iliad)
~~~
dingo454
Currently for me 4G is the only option to work remotely (the only alternative
would be going with a wimax provider, or sat). I don't normally incur in the
data size caps, but I will soon in the current situation, even when trying to
be conservative.
It also doesn't seem worthwhile to switch at the moment, since other solutions
require a 1-2 year contract which I do not need (not to mention, it would also
take 2-3 weeks to get a connection with those anyway).
------
goblin89
About a month ago my Hong Kong mobile service provider offered subscribers a
free local data package. Not unlimited, but a nice gesture.
~~~
yjftsjthsd-h
What's "local" mean here?
~~~
goblin89
I believe this is their speak to make it clear you cannot use that data while
roaming.
There are not enough resources hosted within the region to make the
distinction pointed out by donavanm worthwhile, unlike e.g. China or Russia.
The local data from my plan gets used up predictably while I access resources
in any part of the Internet.
~~~
taejo
Could it be that they're including the rest of China in local? Are peering
arrangements between HK and the rest of China such that this would make sense?
~~~
goblin89
No, China and Macao both mean roaming data (not included in “local data” quota
on regular plans), though the rates are good.
------
fargle
Overall, maybe a good sentiment and maybe a good idea. In many areas I think
this is being done.
However, I don't at all like the argument that if your neighbor can't pay her
bill, it might not just impact her, but two of her neighbors, one of which is
some kind of network engineer who fixes BGP thingies. And neither of the
leaching neighbors who have some kind of critical need of _her_ internet can
help pay for it???
If you can fix BGP thingies, you ought to have your own WiFi, or be able to do
better than leaching it.
~~~
lightgreen
On the internet this sentiment is called virtue signalling: it costs you
nothing, but people around you think you are a good guy.
~~~
GaryNumanVevo
Except this "sentiment" will genuinely help people who lose their jobs due to
corona and won't be able to pay bills. That extra money from not paying a bill
can really help out.
~~~
fargle
AND... I didn't say it was a bad thing.
But it is bad that you have two people leaching off some hypothetical other
person's WiFi, neither of which is willing to pay for their own or help her.
And you aren't "fixing BGP thingies" for free or if you are out of work.
Why isn't the mooching neighbor helping pay?
I'm ALL for the ISP's relieving bandwidth caps and not cutting service due to
emergency related financial difficulties - for their subscribers.
------
gaius_baltar
Knowing how evil telcos can be, I'm legitimely surprised they didn't exploited
this crisis and their virtual monopolies to squeeze more money from customers.
~~~
AnIdiotOnTheNet
At a certain level of evil, during a crisis, they risk causing enough trouble
to receive congressional attention. The last thing they want is new laws and
regulation that impact their future ability to be evil.
------
vmokry
If you live in a condo, what about sharing your internet on the guest WIFI
network? Does it make sense? Will people misuse it? (It probably violates TOS,
I guess.)
~~~
paganel
Not sure about any TOS but I’ve been sharing my WiFi for more than 10 years
now. I live in an appartment block in an Eastern European capital.
~~~
gray_-_wolf
I guess it depends. At least in my contract for connectivity is a clause then
I cannot share the connection with people not living in the same household. I
would imagine it is fairly common.
~~~
capableweb
Does that mean you cannot have guests using your connectivity? I'm assuming
they still can. What if they stay outside your apartment? What about staying
outside apartment for one week? So many questions
~~~
gray_-_wolf
It excludes people even temporary present in the apartment. So guests are
supposed to be fine. If they are outside and their phone auto-connects, it is
technically a breach, yes.
I asked about it and have in writing that the intention is to prevent sharing
with neighbors. But I mean, there is no way to enforce it either way so
¯\\_(ツ)_/¯
------
TrackerFF
Where I live, it is illegal for utility companies to cut power during winters,
for obvious reasons. Same should be for internet.
In fact, I'd go as far aa saying thar internet today is an absolute necessity,
on par with water and electricity.
------
slcjordan
I'm wondering what people's thoughts are on net neutrality in light of this
new work from home situation. Would it make sense to offer a free tier with
limited access?
~~~
whatshisface
Anyone working from home doesn't need a free tier, right? What is a working
professional going to do with an internet connection that only goes to
Facebook and Wikipedia?
------
zajio1am
The message does not really make much sense to me. Both service payments and
pay dispute handling is overwhelmingly done online, so it is not affected by
coronavirus and lockdowns.
We do not really know how long it will take. Emergency state and lockdowns may
be the new normal. Everything that could work as usual should work as usual to
not cause additional disruption.
~~~
simion314
>Both service payments and pay dispute handling is overwhelmingly done online,
You could be in hospital or you always pay cache not online, many people pay
everything with money in hand in shops(that have such payment points) here in
Romania, also if you have a smartphone I imagine attempting to setup accounts
and try to pay online from the phone is a pain.
------
slovette
Eh.. there won’t be. But it’s not because of some altruistic motivations, it’s
bad PR and the sheer numbers of lost customers would out weight the benefit of
terminating for non-pay.
~~~
jascii
At least in the US, the few the major residential ISP's have a virtual
monopoly so wont loose many customers and have proven in the past not to give
a $#@ about bad PR.
~~~
CrazyCatDog
Actually, Comcast has been a hero of late. The have advertised that they will
give away basic internet for free, and bumped up the speed of existing
subscribers in addition to bumping up their data caps.
Asking university students to leave campus is hard. Switching from on-prem to
online teaching overnight is harder yet. But teaching across the connectivity
divide, where students don’t have access at home and the state just shuttered
all the businesses providing “free” Wifi, is impossible.
I have been wronged many times by Comcast over the last 24 years; at least
from my POV, this offer—provided they abide by it—erases most if not all my
ill-will towards them.
Well done
------
johnminter
Here in the US the vendors are not doing this.
~~~
tssva
AT&T has dropped all data caps, waived any late payment fees, will not
terminate service and has opened their WiFi hotspots to everyone.
Charter is waiving late fees, not terminating service, offering free service
to households with students which don't already have service and opening their
WiFi hotspots to everyone.
Verizon is waiving late fees and will not terminate service.
Cox is waiving late fees, not terminating service, opening WiFi hotspots to
all and upgrading speeds on connections in their programs for low income
customers to 50Mbs.
Comcast is eliminating data caps, waiving late fees, not terminating service,
opening WiFi hotspots to all and offering 2 months of free service to those
eligible for but not enrolled in their $9.95 per month program for low-income
families. They are also increasing data rates for their low-income program
connections.
Many other providers have also pledged to not terminate service.
------
wwarner
I'll play the devil's advocate. Bandwidth is a finite resource, and it could
be in critically short supply. In those circumstances, I wouldn't expect
everyone to get _more_ bandwidth, I'd expect it to be rationed.
~~~
AdamJacobMuller
The problem is how do you establish effective rationing with no preparation?
It's nigh impossible.
Even with preparation, It would be a very difficult and impossibly contentious
process.
~~~
wwarner
For the downvoters, I'm just pointing out that removing all caps and limits
doesn't automatically create abundance.
As far as establishing effective policy: ISPs have a lot of practice rationing
bandwidth, I'm sure there's a way that's fair enough. Putting a price on it is
a good start.
~~~
Johnny555
_For the downvoters, I 'm just pointing out that removing all caps and limits
doesn't automatically create abundance._
True, and if they can provide reliable service without the data caps, then it
makes the public (and in a perfect world, government regulators) question why
they need the data caps at all -- if their network runs fine for months
without any data caps, then why do they need those caps at all?
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Monero – a cryptocurrency that focuses on privacy, decentralization, scalability - spaceboy
https://getmonero.org/home
======
saycheese
What advantages does Monero offer that are not provided by other
cryptocurrencies?
[http://monero.stackexchange.com/questions/2254/what-
advantag...](http://monero.stackexchange.com/questions/2254/what-advantages-
does-monero-offer-that-are-not-provided-by-other-cryptocurrencie)
_______________
Wikipedia provides a better over view of the project:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monero_(cryptocurrency)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monero_\(cryptocurrency\))
Current market cap is here:
[http://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/monero/#charts](http://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/monero/#charts)
____________
Past HN mentions:
[https://hn.algolia.com/?query=Monero&sort=byDate&prefix&page...](https://hn.algolia.com/?query=Monero&sort=byDate&prefix&page=0&dateRange=all&type=story)
Reddit: [https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/)
Stack Exchange:
[http://monero.stackexchange.com/questions](http://monero.stackexchange.com/questions)
------
Freak_NL
One thing that always strikes me as unethical with cryptocurrencies is how
whoever comes up with a cryptocoin seems to allocate themselves a very
generous percentage of the currency mined before going public. Bitcoin's
founder apparently did this (I think it was by mining the easier blocks
first), and unless I simply don't fully grasp how any of this works, they
would end up being the richest person on Earth by virtue of holding the most
Bitcoin if Bitcoin became as popular as the Dollar, Euro, Pound, Yen, or Yuan.
Is Monero any different?
~~~
seibelj
What is the reward for putting in the effort to create a crypto currency? Is
it only ethical to make a cryptocurrency if you don't earn a penny in
compensation? If it's OK to make some profit, what is the limit? $100k?
$10mil?
------
albertTJames
As a merchant would it be possible to accept normal credit cards and have the
money converted to monero?
~~~
patio11
That likely isn't ever going to be possible as a single atomic transaction.
After you're paid actual money you can do many things with actual money,
including sending it to a counterparty who might give you cryptocurrency, but
it is unlikely a credit card processor will provide you with cryptocurrency
directly.
One reason, among many: while many people who accept money on the Internet
consider chargebacks a drawback, credit card companies see them as a core
value proposition. "You, the customer, will never get screwed if you use your
PlastiCard!" The way that credit card processors (n.b. not usually the same
entity as PlastiCard!) are able to make this work is by having agreements with
all their merchants which allow them to recoup costs in the event of a
chargeback. If your cryptocurrency is designed to be private, non-reversible,
and outside the reach of the legal process... this does not signal wonderful
things to a credit card processor about your likelihood of actually paying
what you owe them in the event your customers charge back purchases.
(Disclaimer: personal opinion.)
~~~
narrowrail
>cryptocurrency is designed to be private, non-reversible, and outside the
reach of the legal process
In a well-established B2B relationship, where payment terms are already
established (i.e. net-60, 5%-net-20), I think these crypto-currencies make
more sense. These long-term business relationships drive the majority of GDP,
and they normally use EFTs or even paper checks (both of which are pretty
cheap, but not free). In a cross-border deal especially, I think Bitcoin (the
only seemingly viable choice at this point) makes a lot of sense.
One-off transactions have more risks and are less stable AFAICT.
~~~
JamesBarney
Why do you think it make more sense?
It seems to me when a business switches to cryptocurrency they pay more and
risk more but don't much back.
------
omaranto
I wonder how they chose the name. "Monero" means cartoonist in Spanish.
~~~
npongratz
I guess it was influenced by Esperanto:
[http://monero.stackexchange.com/a/252](http://monero.stackexchange.com/a/252)
"monero = mono (money) + ero (bit) = coin (esperanto language)"
------
nik736
Logo seems familiar, Wowza?
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Hubris and GHC 6.12 + dynamic linking - dons
http://www.shimweasel.com/2009/09/10/hubris-and-ghc-6-12-an-experiment-in-dynamic-linking
======
gdp
Wow! All the dynamic features of Haskell _and_ the type safety of Ruby? Where
do I sign up?
(Yes, I'm being sarcastic. It's actually a neat accomplishment)
~~~
blackdog
The code's pretty simple and there's still a lot to do in terms of making it
easily installable, but hopefully it's useful to some people.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Beside a startup, what are the other ways to significant wealth for a dev? - soulbadguy
I am currently working for a big company doing somewhat very technical work as a developer,and currently trying to formulate a strategy for building a reasonable amount of wealth that would allow me retire early ( and probably return to school yey:) ).<p>It seems that all the success story are related to start-ups;Looking at my situation, i am not sure that this would be my best options. First my area of interrest/expertise (compiler and dev tools) doesn't seems amendable for a start-up; and beside the somewhat rigid structure,low pay and boring meetings i still enjoy the "big company" setting : working with so many smart people with so much experience really turn every interaction into a teachable moment and has allowed me ( and continue to do so) to grow as dev at an incredible rate.<p>I am sure other dev/people are facing the same dilemma, so it would be nice to hear from other people :<p>1 - are start-up the only way to significant wealth for a dev(while still doing dev work) ?
2 - i read on-line stories about dev making north of 1 million a years; is that really possible ?
3 - what are the other way to wealth for a dev (investing, consulting, part time startup etc...) ?
======
patio11
I'll answer the questions you asked, then give you a better question:
AppAmaGooBookSoft are probably not what you're thinking of when you say
"startups" and 5-10 years in any of them will make you quite wealthy indeed,
by the standards of e.g. the American middle class.
Do some devs make north of $1 million a year? Yes, for a value of "some." (If
you put a gun to my head, I'd say "Maybe 5% of the engineering workforce at
AppAmaGooBookSoft. Possibly modestly higher than that in finance.") The
shortest path to it is "significant contributions to a major revenue driver
for a large company combined with aggressive negotiation."
Depending on where you draw the bar for "wealthy", there are a lot of dev-
related businesses which can get you there. Consultancies with employees throw
off a lot of money on a yearly basis and also build value which can be sold.
Profits for a well-managed e.g. Rails consultancy are on the order of
$2.5k~$10k _per employee_ per month (math here:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7155387](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7155387)),
so if you run a 10-person consultancy, you do pretty well for yourself via
distributions while also drawing the market salary you're paying all the
employees.
There exist many product businesses which are primarily or largely software in
character. There exist hundreds of software companies which toil in relative
obscurity whose founders are (generally very quietly) millionaires even when
one doesn't count the value of the company itself. I built a consulting career
off of working for SaaS companies with, in the main, $10 to $50 million a year
in revenue. There exist lots of them. The rough economics are often 10% COGS
10% marketing 10% G&A 50% salaries 20% "whatever the owner feels like."
Many of these paths will not involve you being primarily working on compilers
and dev tools. (Compilers are a tough sell -- dev tools perhaps less so. There
exist plenty of great small dev tools companies.) Even if that is what your
business actually makes money on, you will probably have to a) get into
business and b) spend the majority of your cycles on building the business
rather than building the thing the business makes, unless you take the well-
compensated employee route.
There are your answers. Here is my question: what do you want out of life?
What does "wealthy" mean to you? What motivates your desire to retire early?
I once wanted to retire early, but that was a symptom of the underlying
affliction "I hated what I was doing for a living." If you see wealth as an
opportunity to choose to spend most of your cycles on something other than
what you presently do for a living, you probably can achieve that without
being sold-a-startup-now-I'm-loaded wealthy. Some of the happiest people I
know run quiet little cottage industry software businesses on the Internet in
preference to the day job. Most don't have seven figures in the bank, but
their day-to-day lifestyle might resemble that of a "gentleman of means."
If you want to have sufficient free cycles to study something, consider as an
option "Create some enduring source of value which solves the sustenance-for-
myself-and-family problem with the minimum number of hours required per week;
spend my freed-up-time studying rather than filing TPS reports."
~~~
saiprashanth93
What exactly is AppAmaGooBookSoft?
~~~
JonRB
I believe it means Apple/Amazon/Google/Facebook/Microsoft
I was also unsure and searching for it basically only gave HN things.
~~~
w1ntermute
It's a patio11-ism.
------
fishcakes
Here are a few ideas:
\- Selling enterprise software (you can make 10%-20% of an 8 or 9 figure deal)
\- Selling securities in some form or another (you make ~5% of deals worth
potentially hundreds of millions of dollars)
\- high leverage consulting (solving very hard tech problems for lots of
people. for example: I have a friend who helps a whole bunch of computer
vision companies and makes a ton. Another friend is an SEO expert.)
\- Patenting core technologies and selling those patents (A buddy of mine sold
his patent for $10M)
\- "platform based land grabs". Think of the people who bought tons of domains
early in the Web's history. Or the first guy to make an emoji app on iOS.
These are different than "starting a company" as you really only need a
product and can pull it all off on your own. I suspect there will be more of
these in the future.
All of these require creatively navigating business as well as being an
awesome dev.
~~~
catshirt
forgive my lack of imagination / education, what kind of enterprise software
could a sole developer create that would land 8/9 figure contracts?
~~~
sosuke
I took GP to mean as a technical sales person, sales engineers make a
commission.
~~~
catshirt
thanks, i must not have read that too carefully. :)
------
zamalek
1\. Startups have happiness potential for developer not only because of the
monetary wealth but also because of the _wealth of the challenges faced._
Developers live for tricky puzzles to solve and startups are one place that
you can get them. Startups aren't the only place where you can find challenges
(as you've noted).
The monetary wealth typically comes from _stock options._ Stock options are a
promise that you can buy stocks at a certain price at some point in the future
(when they become available, e.g. during an investment or IPO). Options are
how you become an overnight millionaire. Startups aren't the only place where
you can earn options.
You'll typically find that companies that aren't publicly traded have stock
options (ask about them in your interview). It's not something that's
exclusive to startups - I have options in a 10 year old company and have
cashed in some of those options.
2\. Yes.
3\. Accrue wealth like anyone would. Developers earn relatively high salaries
(whether they work for a startup or not) and hence have an easier time getting
into the situation where money works for them.
However, even one of those developers who earns $1 000 000 can have no wealth
if they waste it all. Someone who earns $75 000 can amass a fortune. It all
comes down to how well you manage your money. If you do something to get rich
quick chances are you are going to end up penniless. It takes time, discipline
and a brain.
There is no quick road to material wealth.
Money does not make you happy, it merely multiplies what is already there.
It's a catalyst. If you're already happy, money makes you happier. If you're
already sad, money will make you miserable.
~~~
timr
_" Developers live for tricky puzzles to solve and startups are one place that
you can get them. Startups aren't the only place where you can find challenges
(as you've noted)."_
Ehhh. I jumped from research to the startup world, so maybe I have a high bar,
but most startups are doing pretty boring, predictable variations on bog-
standard systems work. You see this in the way that these "exciting" companies
keep re-inventing the same wheels in different languages. How many javascript
frameworks are there, again? How many different ways have people found to
"replace" relational databases?
If you're right out of school, _everything_ is challenging. Give it a few
years. Eventually, it becomes downright boring to watch people needlessly re-
solve problems that were solved in the late 1960s because they don't know
history, and/or don't want to learn some boring old technology that their
older brother used last week.
If you want interesting problems, go into research. If you want to do
interesting problems _and_ get paid, go to companies that are large enough to
have the resources to fund things that aren't directly on the critical path to
profit. Startups are a really bad place to go if you want tricky puzzles.
~~~
PopeOfNope
Why did you jump from research to the startup world?
~~~
timr
A desire not to die in abject poverty. (I kid...)
I realized a) that I was unlikely to get a tenure-track position, and b) that
even if I were to get one, I didn't really enjoy the work of a tenure-track
professor, which tends to be more about fundraising and having meetings, and
less about doing research.
(More flippantly, I realized that the life of a modern, tenured academic looks
a lot like the life of a small business owner. So why not just go into
startups, where there's a chance of making real money for the lifetime of
effort?)
------
starmole
It really depends on skill and motivation. If your motivation is only money
you are unlikely to succeed.
Personally I am a big corp dev and making >600k/year on track to retire at 40.
But you do not get there by trying for the salary. Try to be good, no
exceptional, at what you do. Become valuable and you will be paid. But your
motivation should be your craft and not money.
I believe the same applies for startup founders too. As a dev in startup land
you are at a disadvantage though - the fail or rise of the company is much
more about sales and biz than tech.
I think as a dev big corps are the way better bet. Not much to loose, but
possibly high payout. Startups very rarely pay out for devs.
~~~
jerguismi
Is the $600k salary, bonuses, stock options or? Sounds quite incredible to me.
I haven't heard from any dev making this kind of salary, not even in the big
companies.
~~~
zzalpha
That's what I'm trying to figure out. $600k salary+bonuses is C-level
executive territory. The idea of an engineer making that kind of money in
straight compensation sounds ludicrous to me.
If it's in the form of options, you'll forgive me if I treat that as pretend
money until it's transformed into real wealth.
~~~
starmole
600k including bonuses. Vested RSU bonuses. So real cash in hand. And those
usually keep replenishing over time so after an initial delay it's
compensation.
~~~
zzalpha
Ah, so base salary plus vested options, aka handcuffs.
And you're getting, on average, what, 400-500k a year in RSUs vesting?
Am I wrong is that basically bonkers as far as compensation goes? That feels
at least a few standard deviations outside the mean... Which is great for you,
and congratulations!
But "win the lottery" doesn't make for very compelling early retirement
advice. :)
------
sosuke
A general rant, when someone asks about how to make reasonable wealth,
significant wealth, or to get richer than you would be as a salaried worker I
assume they are interested in getting into the 1% or higher bracket of
earners.
Someone making 6 figures asking how to get more wealth probably doesn't care
they are in the top 10%. They are looking up, not down. Saving half their
salary isn't realistic for a single income family, and would even be tough for
a dual income family.
They probably don't care to listen to the "money isn't everything" advice from
the rich. Yes, everyone knows that money isn't everything, and everyone knows
that money isn't everything when you've already got it. I have relatives
making choices between feeding themselves or their pet for the day, money
means a great deal up to a point, and then there is a big gap where it doesn't
make much difference. Then after that gap is breached is starts to make a huge
difference again.
Unfortunately, for the number of times this question is asked, the number of
times I've asked it of myself, there are no silver bullets or proven paths. I
have to stop ranting now it is late, I am tired. (^_^)b
~~~
markyc
_I have relatives making choices between feeding themselves or their pet for
the day_
why would they have a pet if they can't afford to feed it?
~~~
jmngomes
Perhaps they had adopted the pet before a completely unexpected event turned
their lives upside down and out of their control?
~~~
markyc
when it's a question if my family eats vs the pet eats, there are only 2
possible answers:
1\. sell/give the pet away
or
2\. eat the pet
~~~
jamesdelaneyie
Time to chow down on Scruffles kids!
------
tslug
1\. No.
2\. Yes.
3\. Respect the people you want to help you. For instance, let's say you want
a bunch of people to take the time to read and answer difficult, open-ended
questions for free in a way that could lead to vast personal wealth for you.
You could demonstrate your respect for them by showing them the courtesy of
proof-reading your post. As the questions are so broad, you also could show
respect by sharing what you've learned in the research you've done so far to
help educate them and to narrow down what you're looking for. You could
demonstrate even more respect by thanking the authors of particularly good
contributions.
~~~
soulbadguy
This one is interesting.
------
sblom
I worked with a test engineer at Microsoft who started in 1999, which was
after the get-rich-on-stock-options days at the company. He spent 15 years
living below his means, and recently retired from the tech world forever. He
didn't need any tricks or secrets to pull it off, just living frugally and
saving tons of money. I suspect I'm way behind him despite earning more and
even having a wife who used to earn a software salary as well. Makes me wish I
would have saved more aggressively to date.
~~~
justinlilly
You may be interested in earlyretirementextreme.com which details how to do
exactly what your friend did.
------
danieltillett
I am surprised no one has suggested the traditional and still very popular way
which is marry someone wealthy.
~~~
ishanr
lol
------
madaxe_again
As someone who has spent their 20's accruing "significant wealth" through a
startup (I am by no means loaded, but have not worried about money at all in
~3 years), I'll tell you now - it's overrated.
Money _can_ buy you happiness, but it's an inefficient exchange mechanism -
unless you roll two sixes, the amount of work and bullshit that goes hand in
hand with growing your "worth" usually exceeds the reward - and that reward
for most is tantalisingly close but always "a year or two" away.
Monetary wealth is a means - it is "gas in the tank" \- but it isn't the end.
The end is your own happiness and wellbeing, and there are much easier ways to
secure this than through wealth.
If I'd known what I know now, I would have moved to a hut up a mountain a
decade ago rather than going into business. Now I am responsible for the
livelihood of dozens directly, thousands indirectly, and while I may have made
myself a very comfortable gilded cage, it is a cage, and the cost of my wealth
has been my freedom.
~~~
zzalpha
Having grown up in a poor household with a single parent who worked multiple
jobs to get ends to meet, you'll forgive me if I don't feel a whole heck of a
lot of sympathy for you and your "gilded cage".
Money itself does not buy happiness.
A lack of money, though, makes it a heck of a lot harder to find it.
The goal should be to reach a point where you don't have to actively worry
about money, and that includes some buffer to allow for luxury expenses...
travel, eating out, entertainment, that sort of thing.
Beyond that, additional money will, at best, provide an increment in terms of
overall life satisfaction.
Less than that, and money has a _major_ impact on happiness, and anyone who
says otherwise has clearly never experienced the stress of living paycheck-to-
paycheck. _That_ is a cage, and trust me, it ain't gilded.
~~~
namecast
Seconded. "Money can't buy happiness, but it can sure chase away the blues".
(And the debt collectors and irate landlords, I would add).
------
jcoffland
Contracting! Many people, most of them non-contractors or people who have
limited contracting experience will tell you contracting is risky. If you are
good it's actually much more secure than getting a "real" job, once you get
going. You can't really get fired and as long as you are able to juggle a few
clients at a time you will always have plenty of work. If you can consistently
deliver results faster than the average deskjocky you can earn a lot of money
too.
~~~
tajen
I second contracting. You are responsible for your own skills, but you can
start very young, and you usually get better skills than permanently employed
people. Then only drawback is the lack of social ties with your employer, but
nowadays employers don't really care for employees, and having more money than
a permanent employee will give you more latitude.
~~~
bentcorner
I'm completely unfamiliar with this - does this mean working with a staffing
agency, or working on your own (freelancing?)?
~~~
jerguismi
Contracting is essentially freelancing. Only minor differences, contractors
maybe make bigger contracts and work maybe longer periods of time per one
client. It is up to you if you want to call yourself contractor or freelancer
:)
~~~
pikachu_is_cool
How exactly do you start contracting?
For instance I've made a couple of decently popular jailbreak iOS apps, which
is nice passive income, and a good niche, but I don't really know where to
find clients... through friends, on a website, or what?
~~~
tajen
I'm located in France where the market is a bit special because permanent jobs
are overprotected and companies are begging to contact instead of hiring.
Basically as soon as you go over the edge of creating your company, you can
start searching. The same "meat traders" who want to recruit you for a
permanent job on a service company, they will be willing to hire you as a
contractor. Rates go in Lyon from 270€ per day to 550€ for the same mission as
a perm job, and upnorth of 600€ in Paris, for very basic Java skills, like the
guy who doesn't know Maven.
The same recruiters. They just try not to tell you about contacting when they
think they can hire you as a perm for half the price. It's ok to take a
commitment on a few months for the first mission, so you get some credentials.
Then you can follow patio11's advice ;)
------
sosuke
Keep making products until one sticks, then keep making products until one
shows potential, then keep making products until you've gotten a product that
can support you, then keep making that product until it plateaus or you
consider yourself successful. If that last product isn't enough, repeat the
cycle.
Product could be SaaS, software, consulting, contracting.
------
m-i-l
1\. No, startups aren't the only way to "significant wealth". In fact, in my
experience, startups are something of a lottery, i.e. you only a very small
chance of making a lot of money. For every success story you read there will
be many more failures. But having said that, it can still be worth founding or
working for a startup because you can often learn a much broader set of skills
than you can at a big company.
2\. Yes, I have heard about a small number of exceptionally highly paid
developers too. However, I suspect this is incredibly rare, perhaps with a
similar or even lower probability than making your fortune at a startup.
Unless you have some extraordinarily talent and are aware of this and in a
position to able to exploit this (but I doubt you would be asking the question
if this was the case).
3\. I would have thought your best chance of making enough money to reach
financial independence is the usual unexciting advice: (i) work hard to get an
above average salary, (ii) live frugally and save as much as you can, (iii)
invest what you save carefully, (iv) continue this process for many years. If
there was a sure-fire quick and easy way of getting rich, I'm sure more people
would be doing it, or you wouldn't be reading about it here.
------
eignerchris_
It really depends on your definition of wealth. Most engineers I know clear
100K+ pretty easily after a few years of experience. If you're in a hot market
or sector, you can easily earn $180k+ after 5-8 years. If you produce
consistent value for a business, $225k is definitely achievable.
Understand that by making $100k+ you're basically in the top 10-15% of earners
in the U.S. [1]. Make $180k/yr and you're in the top 4%.
And realize that plenty of people who make >$150k spend like crazy trying to
keep up with the Jones. Plenty of people who make $80k/yr spend wisely end up
having more "wealth" in the end.
[1] - [http://www.financialsamurai.com/how-much-money-do-the-top-
in...](http://www.financialsamurai.com/how-much-money-do-the-top-income-
earners-make-percent/)
------
alttab
Save half of what you make, diversify your investments, and pay down your
debt. Do this for 15 years and you will be rich with your skills.
~~~
davidw
That's the strategy suggested by this guy, who has made a name for himself
dispensing that advice:
[http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/](http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/)
Mostly it seems pretty sensible.
------
crimsonalucard
There's something we all can do if we work together to get each of us paid
north of 200k a year.
Form a software developer union.
~~~
beagle3
The only unions that I am aware of that have achievements close to this are
lawyer's guilds (through state bars) and doctor's guilds (the AMA, by limiting
medical school admissions).
Lawyers, as of the last 15 years or so, are not doing so well - the median
figure I found for 2013 is $114K. Doctors are doing better, at median $190K.
That's a far cry from "each of us" \- even with these two professions, 50-80%
of the people earn less than $200k.
And, they both manage it through strict licensing, which effectively requires
6-8 year studies in an accredited institute - which carry hundreds of
thousands of dollars in debt in most cases.
Which union and setting exactly did you have in mind when you wrote this?
~~~
crimsonalucard
You're not talking about unions. Those are cartels that restrict supply.
Lawyers and Doctors are business owners operating as an oligopoly. I'm not
talking about business owners. I'm talking about employees. I'm talking about
people joining together to put themselves on equal negotiation grounds with
their employers.
Just because no union has successfully produced wages of 200k plus doesn't
mean it can't happen. Software Engineering is a highly skilled occupation that
generates a great deal of wealth. If all software developers demanded 200k
then companies would pay that price because our work generates well north of
that. The reason we don't get a fair share of the pie, like all other
laborers, is a lack of organized negotiation. In short, 200k+ union salary has
never happened, but is well within the means of the industry to support such
an endeavor. It CAN happen and it will make wages MORE fair.
Don't argue against unions. It's the stupidest thing to do, because even if
you can't negotiate your salary up to 200k you got nothing to lose by
making/joining one or even raising your salary by 10k. That is unless, you're
an executive/major shareholder... then we'd be opponents from a negotiation
standpoint.
~~~
JoeAltmaier
I'm not sure I want anyone else negotiating my salary, or deciding what work
I'm allowed to do, or creating some hoops of qualification or exams for me to
jump through so I can get a "Programmer III" classification and get another
10K. No thanks. Too blue-collar for me.
Its not all about the money after all. We're not talking about poor sweatshop
guys trying to feed a family or go on public assistance. We're talking about
folks paid quite a bit for sitting on their butts and typing.
Sure we have value. Learn to negotiate, become a contractor or consultant if
you like, switch jobs as needed to get what you think you're worth. But don't
imagine you'll sign me up for a club where you decide what I'm worth, and make
me pay for the privilege.
~~~
crimsonalucard
The "club" doesn't negotiate FOR you. It negotiates WITH you. You can still
negotiate for higher if you think you can get it. All the union says is, no
programmer gets paid less the 200k. You want to negotiate to 300k because you
think you're that good? Be my guest.
A corporation is a group of organized individuals negotiating against you. A
union puts you on equal ground. That's it. If a union doesn't work this way,
then it needs to be changed.
~~~
JoeAltmaier
Lets not pretend unions don't totally change the hiring landscape. Easy to say
"be my guest" but we both know the corporation will not deal at all, after
they've dealt with the union.
~~~
crimsonalucard
[http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=659718](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=659718)
short answer: It depends on the union. It does happen in this country.
------
heyalexej
"Significant wealth" can mean many different things. I've seen Derek Sivers
speaking at multiple conferences. He has a very interesting question that I
since ask myself and others: "What do you optimize your life for?". When you
find the answer to that question, it gets easier to go from there.
Robert Kiyosaki and other wealthy people state that wealth is measured in
time. Can you not work for x weeks, months, years and still make money or at
least maintain status quo? If you can, you're probably already wealthy and
doing better than the vast majority of people out there.
We all love to read success stories of startup founders where it escalated
quickly and they got out with a huge amount of money. These people however are
not a good representation of what's out there. Most wealthy people I've met
over the course of my life do things that not a lot of people think about and
take for granted. They're sometimes rather boring, not glamorous, not
innovative things like selling sausages, web hosting, web development
services, selling plain white shirts, toilet paper, pipe fittings, cleaning
businesses, restaurants and so on. These people then invest their proceeds in
other "boring" assets like real estate, other businesses, fonds etc. with a
long term view.
A lot of these people moved from being a specialist (consultants, chefs,
programmers, contractors) to business owners. Not working in but on the
business. Hiring other specialists, people who do the grunt work, the sales,
the programming and so on. They then invest their proceeds into assets that
will continue to generate money at different percentages even after they
completely stop working.
In your particular case that could mean that you could start with very
specialized consulting work. Then slowly transition into providing tooling for
a monthly fee. Then slowly removing yourself from the business as much as you
can. The beauty of it is that monthly recurring revenue is compounding. Also
have a look into SWaS (Software With a Service)
[http://www.tropicalmba.com/swas/](http://www.tropicalmba.com/swas/).
Investing/saving $5K a month for 15 years with an expected rate of return of
7% and an expected inflation rate of 3% will bring you to a place where you
end up with a balance of ~$1.5MM (or $1MM after inflation) to your name. Would
that make you wealthy in your books?
~~~
ryandrake
> Investing/saving $5K a month for 15 years with an expected rate of return of
> 7% and an expected inflation rate of 3% will bring you to a place where you
> end up with a balance of ~$1.5MM (or $1MM after inflation) to your name.
> Would that make you wealthy in your books?
So, 15 years and you'll have almost enough to buy a _starter home_ in Palo
Alto...
~~~
heyalexej
While true, Palo Alto might not be the center of the universe for... like
99.99999999999999999999% of human beings on this planet. The world is a huge
playground. I am slow traveling since many many years and have a pretty
awesome life in my books. In the end, that's all that matters. But this is
what I optimize my life for and doesn't need to apply to anyone else. I don't
dream of a luxurious home in Palo Alto. In exchange I can do or not do
whatever I please, whenever I please. Stay or walk away from things, jobs,
places, people. Means: I found my answer to what I optimize my life for. I am
wealthy in my books. Wealthy with a capital "W". Not rich.
~~~
Schwolop
I think you took a few too many 9s there. That implies its the centre of the
universe for 0.0000000000006 of a person.
/snark
------
PaulRobinson
The myth that growing the value of equity is the only way to make significant
money is a lie, perpetuated to keep you working for somebody else until you
have "the big idea".
What if you started a company as an LLP with some smart colleagues and you
shared in the growth of each other's talents? What if you created a co-
operative?
Come to think of it, what's your goal? To be rich, or to be able to go back to
school without worrying about money? The two are not the same. I doubt that
most of the open source developers you've heard of can rock around in a
Ferrari but they are doing what they love and are happy: haven't they
effectively got to the point you wanted to, but without the need to slog out
to the point of having piles of money?
I'd also as an addendum suggest diving into the
[/r/financialindependence]([http://www.reddit.com/r/financialindependence](http://www.reddit.com/r/financialindependence))
community - lots of ideas there.
------
hamburglar
I think the best approach is to stop believing the hype that you went into a
vocation that'll net you obscene wealth and instead thank your lucky stars at
having entered a field that you (hopefully) enjoy and which also happens to
pay a damn good salary. From that point: hard work and perseverance will let
you save a pretty respectable retirement fund. And the work isn't even that
hard.
I'm sorry to be the grumpy old man in this thread, but asking how to turn your
developer job into $1MM/year is like a high school kid planning to play pro
basketball.
~~~
soulbadguy
What's wrong with an high schooler wanted to play pro basketball ?
~~~
hamburglar
You mean besides it being the canonical example of an unrealistic plan for
becoming rich? Nothing.
------
dleskov
I am with a small company focused on compilers and managed runtimes (JVM), and
I can tell you that _good_ compiler consultants are in high demand. For
instance, I had a discussion with a CEO of such specialized consultancy
looking for GCC specialists last year, and he said that LLVM engineers are
even harder to come by.
I also see processor startups popping up all the time that need compiler/tools
engineers badly.
Overall, I'd repeat what others have said: "save a lot and invest your savings
wisely."
~~~
nudpiedo
Can you specify what do you mean with "_good_ compiler consultants"? It
doesn't look like the guy who tunes the configuration of the runtimes right?
Perhaps someone that writes and modifies the source of a compiler for a
special set-up?
~~~
dleskov
I mean someone who can build support for your shiny new language and/or
instruction set into GCC or LLVM and get their pull request accepted by the
maintainers.
------
ryandrake
Since a lot of people are commenting that the original poster is not being
specific in what he or she means by "significant wealth", let me propose a
more concrete question:
"Besides a startup, what are some other reliable (close to risk-free) ways to
retire at any age with $20 million net worth and $1 million a year in passive
income--that a motivated and skilled software developer can achieve starting
in his twenties?"
Practical step-by-step advice only, no general platitudes like "just love what
you do!" and "don't be in it for the money!" My guess is it's impossible
without rolling the dice on business ownership, but I'd love to be proven
wrong.
------
hkmurakami
How much do you need in your nest egg to fully retire?
Now, how much would you need in your nest egg to feel comfortable about being
picky about where you work and what you work on, trading in some of your
income for mission/learning/location/people etc.?
Once you have these numbers (which depends on your life stage and costs of
living), then you can start backtracking and figure out what kind of money
you'd need to make and whether it makes sense for you. That will leave you
with the universe of options available, which may be wider than what you're
considering right now.
------
joetech
There are ways to make a lot of money with affiliate marketing, but that can
involve a lot of trial and error and can (usually does) involve bootstrapping
with a lot of your own cash or a credit card. Although I know of at least one
person who turned millionaire after bootstrapping by maxing out his credit
cards, I would never suggest doing that. It's a deep hole to climb out of if
you fail and for every success story, there's probably 100 failures not talked
about. In short, the successes I've seen involve buying advertising to get
people to a landing page that generates leads with commissions that
(hopefully) pay you back more than you spend getting the traffic. It's a
delicate operation that pays well only if you get the landing page and
affiliate choices right.
I've also seen wealth generated with mailing lists. This is another affiliate
marketing play that can be done without feeling too spammy and can still add
value to the user.
Similar to a mailing list, a forum can be easy to set up and maintain. Also
like a mailing list, if you create a large enough user base, advertising can
pay off.
One of the better earners is a subscription model for just about anything.
Software provided for free with a "premium" set of features for $x per month
is a good way to generate a user base more easily.
A couple things to keep in mind: 1\. You will almost always have more success
when you're passionate about the subject matter. 2\. It will take time. Most
overnight successes are preceded by years of ramp-up.
------
wsc981
Like others have suggested in this thread: contracting.
Ideally find clients who are willing to work with remote contractors. Emigrate
to a "poorer" country and save money. For example, people in Thailand earn on
average around 500 EUR a month (from what I've read). If you can manage to
work for western clients who perhaps pay you 10.000 EUR a month (40 hour work
weeks), you will be able to retire extremely quickly.
~~~
anonnomad
My suggestion for newcomers is a budget of 2000-4000 EUR month for comfortable
living in Bangkok (depending on your level of comfortableness). The daily live
of a 500 EUR worker is not the same as that of an expat (e.g. membership at a
co-work space alone will set you back ~200$/month). Gyms are as expensive as
in the west.
~~~
purplelobster
Really? I live very comfortably in Stockholm (a very expensive place) with
1500 EUR. How on earth would you need 4000 EUR in Bangkok?
~~~
anonnomad
4000 EUR is very comfortable living.
\- ~800 EUR for a nice 1-br condo in a central location \- ~100 EUR
el./internet/tv/3g \- ~100 EUR for transport (these motorbike taxis and bts
rides are adding up). \- ~150 EUR for co-work membership.
= 1150 EUR fix per month.
Now with the rest you can go eat and drink. 100 EUR = big nightout, 50 EUR
dinner and drinks, 20 EUR low-key dinner with drinks, 4-10 EUR just dinner
outside.
Add another few 100 EUR for a visa run every once in a while.
Also don't forget that you're likely still paying for some stuff back home,
insurances, etc.
------
Jack000
There's always the "get rich slowly" approach: put a large portion of your
income in low-risk investments. This is slow but once you hit a critical mass
in capital more interesting opportunities become available. Eg. you could
eventually bootstrap your way to buying an apartment complex, parking lot etc.
I think a better question is how do non-computer people create wealth? Devs as
a group are already predisposed to having higher income. For my family it has
been to work really, really hard, live frugally and invest all disposable
income. I'd venture to guess that most wealth creation happens this way - call
it the long tail of wealth.
------
chrisbennet
I'm not trying to be flippant, but have you considered finding something you
like enough that you don't look forward to retiring?
I get paid (well) to do stuff I love so it is possible and possibly easier
than becoming wealthy. I think loving your "work" will put a lot more
happiness "under the curve" than waiting until you retire to be happy - even
if you retire early.
------
soulbadguy
A lot of good answers, and lot of good advices. But it seems there is a lot of
assumptions on my motivations and personal view on moneys.While i think that
those aren't strictly necessary to answer the question, i guess i am asking a
personal question so it's only fair if people some assumptions. So in no
particular order , i am sharing my perspective on some the recurring themes :
1 - Why do i want money (or why do i want a lot if it :)) : I am not
interested in a luxurious or grandiose life style. For me money is to buy
freedom and safety booth for me and the peole i care about. I want myself and
them to be able to afford the best of the health care systems, to be able to
focus on exactly what we do, etc...etc...
2 - How much is "significant wealth" 10M+
3 - Money shouldn't be the focus, the craft is: I think they both should be. I
don't think getting wealthy should be though as a direct consequences of great
work. Great work might be correlated or even necessary to building wealth but
i don't the former always implies the latter. To get wealth i believe i will
have to learn how, much in the same wayi had to learn to be a software dev.
4 - There is no quick fix. stop looking for it.
I am not looking for a quick fix. I am willing to put the hours (hell i am
looking forward to it). But i also want to capture and leverage some of the
value i will be creating (in a way that's is both legal and ecological)
So again a lot of great idea i didn't though of and i am already reading on
all those venues. The idea i am particular interested is consulting : Is there
a demand out there for consulting to startup say 30/week for 6 month for some
equity in the company ?
Any body in the fanancial market want to share his experience ?
Again thanks for all the great answers
------
dublidu
Devs rarely make $1 million a year, startup or big company. Now if you are 10x
better than the average Google/Facebook engineer and can prove it, I think you
could negotiate that kind of compensation package as a principal engineer.
~~~
damian2000
This is a special case, but its possible for developers who specialise in High
Frequency Trading (HFT) algorithms to make that, in the case of getting into a
bidding war between rival HFT investment banks.
[https://adtmag.com/articles/2011/07/29/why-hft-
programmers-e...](https://adtmag.com/articles/2011/07/29/why-hft-programmers-
earn-top-salaries.aspx)
------
bandrami
Savings and prudent investment.
------
simplexion
Wealth != money. I feel like I am very wealthy and I make bugger all money.
------
prewett
Save money and invest it wisely in stocks and/or bonds. It's not fast, it's
not techy, but it is a tried and true way.
The trick is, you need to figure out what "wisely" is. IMO, if your strategy
involves holding on to your stocks, it is probably speculation (=gambling)
rather than investing wisely.
~~~
gdubs
>> if your strategy involves holding on to your stocks, it is probably
speculation (=gambling) rather than investing wisely.
Holding onto your stocks is the opposite of speculation, isn't it? Most
sensible investment advice, e.g. Bogle, recommends index funds that are held
basically forever.
------
Sukotto
If returning to school is something you really want to do then there is a
third option: go get a job at the school you want to attend.
Just make sure to negotiate your benefits to include the ability to take
classes (both the time during your days to attend, and reducing the costs --
preferably to zero -- of attending)
------
pjc50
The same way as everyone else: leveraged property speculation.
If you're really good at maths you could become a "quant". Most of the really
high paying developer jobs are unsurprisingly in the financial services
industry.
------
involute1344
3 - Marry well.
------
Zecc
Apparently you can make millions being an art forger.
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9642526](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9642526)
------
aj0strow
Spend less. Save more. Change companies every 3 years. You'll do fine.
Alternatively make friends with rich people and make them richer. You get a
cut.
------
bsder
Get out of dev, put on a suit and tie, and go suck up doing finance on Wall
Street.
Your probability of success is _way_ higher.
------
anovikov
Get married to a rich girl. Girls like smart guys.
------
RantyDave
Solve problems for rich clients.
Or steal bitcoin.
~~~
mirceal
steal bitcoin for rich clients
------
mauricemir
what do you define as significant? 1M 10M or 100M plus
~~~
soulbadguy
10M
------
MurWade
email me [email protected]
------
FlaceBook
"I want to be rich, how do I do this?"
Is this yahoo answers?
------
jitix
Make a viral app. Something like Flappy Bird.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Sandboxing with Firejail - moreati
https://lwn.net/Articles/671534/
======
mynewtb
I had no idea it was so easy to use!
> The --net=none option will create a new network namespace without any
> devices, so processes cannot communicate outside of the namespace.
No idea what a namespace is, does this mean the process will be unable to use
any network? I want that as default for everything on my machine...
~~~
cesnja
Linux namespaces isolate certain functionality for a group of processes. See
more here: [http://man7.org/linux/man-
pages/man7/namespaces.7.html](http://man7.org/linux/man-
pages/man7/namespaces.7.html)
And yes, a blank new network namespace won't even have the loopback interface
available. There is a program named unshare, which executes a program in
another namespace.
~~~
digi_owl
Really wish there was a basic set of commands for manipulating namespaces. It
seems we are reliant on support being baked into larger tools like systemd at
present, and said tools may not allow the user/admin to manipulate namespaces
directly.
~~~
tobbyb
The unshare tool [1] can be used along with ip-tools to create a namespace
with networking support. Add a chroot or pivot root to it and you have a Linux
container. It's quite easy to do. We have a guide on using namespaces directly
and the various projects using it including Firejail here [2]
Linux namespaces were created to support containers. This is how userland
container projects like LXC, Docker and Nspawn work, only they don't use the
unshare tool but the underlying system calls clonens, setns and unshare [3].
[1] [http://man7.org/linux/man-
pages/man2/unshare.2.html](http://man7.org/linux/man-
pages/man2/unshare.2.html)
[2] [https://www.flockport.com/alternatives-to-docker-and-
lxc/](https://www.flockport.com/alternatives-to-docker-and-lxc/)
[3] [https://lwn.net/Articles/531114/](https://lwn.net/Articles/531114/)
------
SeriousM
Just for the record: [http://www.sandboxie.com/](http://www.sandboxie.com/) is
THE sandbox tool for Windows.
------
yadascript
Could Firejail be used as the isolation layer for an online IDE ?
~~~
jeswin
Sorry off topic, but just wanted to check if I can reach you by email. I am
building something on those lines, and wanted to see if we can exchange ideas.
My email is on my profile.
------
brudgers
Previous:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8187534](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8187534)
~~~
e12e
That doesn't appear to be the same article - so this isn't a duplicate story -
just a duplicate (but much more recent) mention of the technology in question.
------
fulafel
Are there advantages for Ubuntu users over enabling the Firefox AppArmor
profile? (And why doesn't that default to on, anyway?)
~~~
satai
You can do both, there is no need to decide between MAC and firejail. (It may
not work for some small quirks but they should be fixable, at least in theory)
------
agentgt
Pardon my ignorance as I am a long time Linux user now using OSX.. are there
any good sandbox tools for OSX?
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Http2 explained - antouank
http://daniel.haxx.se/http2/
======
geographomics
At the risk of not being quite critical enough for HN - that was an excellent
read.
Clear explanations, a very pleasant layout, and useful visual metaphors for
the trickier parts of the spec. I found it to be both enjoyable and
informative.
A really nice example of documentation done well.
~~~
bagder
As the author of the document - thanks!
------
nly
> 8.4.6. “It has layering violations”
> Seriously, that's your argument? Layers are not holy untouchable pillars of
> a global religion
If layers aren't 'untouchable pillars', then why have we not fixed the ones we
have? IPSec, IP, TCP and TLS are all a jumbled rotten mess. Poor layering has
resulted in a lot of warts like inefficient or underleveraged handshakes and
the lack of things like mobility, multi-homing, authentication, reliable
datagrams and stream multiplexing. What is really being said here is _yes_ ,
the layers we have (TCP, NAT) _really are_ untouchable pillars.
Cramming workarounds in to a higher, application-specific, layers doesn't
benefit the wider Internet.
~~~
necubi
Good luck getting _everybody_ to upgrade their kernel to support your new
transport protocol. Realistically, UDP and TCP are what we have. We may wish
they were more suited to modern use cases, but realistically we must build on
those foundations. If that means violating "layering" for performance, so be
it.
~~~
serge2k
Maybe instead of the "good luck" attitude we should start pushing an "upgrade
or suffer" attitude.
Seems far more reasonable than letting things stagnate for years. It's what
chrome is doing with sha1 certs.
Give a timeframe, if you don't get your upgrade in then too bad.
~~~
mobiplayer
Google can push that because there's a huge user base with Chrome and you
don't want your shiny ecommerce site to be marked as not safe by Chrome, do
you?
On the other hand, the packets moved through the wires to send this comment to
HN and the ones moved to send this comment to your computer are easily managed
by dozens of different people and a handful of different companies with
different agendas, budgets, needs and even skills. Cisco definitely
manufactured and sold most of the devices out there, but they surely don't
manage them or decide when they're upgraded. It gets worse, because actually
there's not only Cisco out there.
I'm not saying it can't be done, but just look at the slow IPv6 adoption,
despite the efforts of all the big players (Google, Cisco, Juniper, Microsoft,
Linux, ... !) supporting it in a timely manner, it's still not there.
~~~
gsnedders
Also remember that everything Google has ever pushed through has been _above_
UDP/TCP, because it's _far_ easier to push through changes on top of that than
not. There's a reason why QUIC is being developed on top of UDP instead of as
a transport layer in its own right.
------
jerf
"One of the drawbacks with HTTP 1.1 is that when a HTTP message has sent off
with a Content-Length of a certain size, you can't easily just stop it. Sure
you can often (but not always – I'll skip the lengthy reasoning of exactly why
here) disconnect the TCP connection"
Can someone give me more of a hint of that reasoning so that I can at least
search for it? I'm intrigued, but the search terms I'm trying all come back
with explanations of why you might need Content-Length, a different issue.
~~~
Lukasa
Sure. The only way to stop a message before the content-length is transmitted
is to kill your TCP connection. This is inefficient: you need to recreate it,
bearing all the TCP set-up cost all over again, and then deal with the small
initial congestion window on your new connection.
HTTP/2 allows you to avoid that by saying "I'm done with this stream now,
sorry!"
~~~
ashmud
How do web browsers handle cancelled requests? Subjectively speaking, it feels
like browsers can take a while to recover from cancelling the loading of a
large page/page with a large number of assets. Could this be part of that?
~~~
patrickmcmanus
you're right. Cancel's in H1 are very painful because all the in-progress
transactions have to be torn down completely. New transactions have to set
them all up again.
H2 let's you just send the server a short message that says "stop sending that
stream" and you can go ahead and pipeline a new request right along with that
cancel.
This happens a lot more than you think as you browse through a collection of
things and are just scanning them and clicking the next button - that's a
really common use case h2 will handle much better.
------
stusmall
"Some of the bigger players in the HTTP field have been missing from the
working group discussions and meetings. I don't want to mention any particular
company or product names here, but clearly some actors on the Internet today
seem to be confident that IETF will do good without these companies being
involved..."
I haven't been following this much, who is he referring to?
~~~
mongol
Probably Apple, there is another mention of them later on in the document.
~~~
bsdetector
Could be. Mobile Safari uses pipelining, so for Apple there's not a lot of
benefit from HTTP2. It isn't a big enough deal for them to push a new
protocol, like it is to say Google that doesn't have pipelining in their
browser.
~~~
bagder
Sorry, but that doesn't make a lot of sense. Pipelining is far from a
replacement for HTTP/2 as the document explains a bit. Besides, Safari already
supports SPDY because of this.
------
otterley
I'm still not entirely sure why the problems inherent in single-stream
connections (request/response) couldn't be solved simply by removing the
artificial RFC-recommended limitation on parallel connections to a server. As
the author says, providers have been escaping this limitation for years by
simply adding hostname aliases, but has nothing negative to say about it.
Modern HTTP servers are highly concurrent; allowing 100 connections per
request doesn't seem like a problem nowadays. And doing so would solve 99% of
the browser performance problem without introducing a significantly more
complicated multiplexing protocol.
~~~
Lukasa
Because running multiple TCP connections in parallel plays havoc with TCP
congestion control and also plays poorly with the TCP slow-start logic. Every
TCP connection begins its receive window again and so it starts small, so
fetching many moderately-sized or large resources (think images) will cost you
many round trips you didn't need to spend.
~~~
jude-
Moreover, it's bad from a QoS standpoint. Opening many TCP streams in parallel
is not fair to other users sharing the routers between you and the server.
You'd get more than your fair share of bandwidth.
~~~
otterley
Only if you don't assume that everyone else will also use the same number of
streams in parallel. If everyone else's utilization is increased by the same
factor, the utilization balance should remain the same.
~~~
jude-
The goodput decreases for everyone then, since each flow requires a 3-RTT
handshake and 1-2-RTT tear-down. This is particularly bad if you're starting
up a lot of small flows, where the control-plane information becomes a non-
negligible fraction of the total data sent.
I think ideally, we'd create a TCP variant where localhost maintains a per-
destination receiving window for all flows to that destination, so flows
running in parallel or flows started in rapid succession won't have to start
their windows at 0 and slowly increase them. Moreover, this way congestion
control applies to all packet flows for a (source, destination) pair, instead
of to individual flows.
HTTP/2 and HTTP pipelining take a crack at this by running multiple
application-level flows (i.e. HTTP requests) through the same receiving window
(i.e. the same TCP socket), but they're not the only application-level
protocols that could stand to benefit.
------
jtokoph
Does anyone know how WebSockets fit into the http2 world? Will we just end up
using http2 server push and the rest of the protocol as a substitute for
WebSockets?
~~~
derefr
WebSockets were always _intended_ for only one specific thing—allowing web
browsers and web servers to speak connection-oriented, stateful wire protocols
(like IRC or IMAP) at one-another over an HTTP tunnel.
Any other usage than this has been merely a _polyfill_ for lack of
efficiently-multiplexed or easily-server-initiated messaging.
Given an efficiently-multiplexed, bidirectional-async messaging channel in the
form of HTTP2, WebSockets can fall back to just being for what they're for,
and we can relegate their polyfill usage to the same place Comet "async
forever iframes" have gone.
------
Mojah
If anyone is looking for a practical guide to using HTTP/2, what changes it
will bring compared to HTTP/1.1 in terms of architecting websites and web
applications, I've written a guide on that: [http://ma.ttias.be/architecting-
websites-http2-era/](http://ma.ttias.be/architecting-websites-http2-era/)
------
gremlinsinc
Wow - was expecting something scary, super technical and over my head - very
easy overview - not that I'm not technical I do server support for a huge web
hosting firm - but sometimes http docs get way too tech spec --this was very
clear to understand.
------
djhworld
Is there a "one page" HTML version of this? I tend to read stuff on my phone
via apps like Instapaper etc, PDFS don't really suit mobile devices :(
------
muppetman
I find it amusing that the document that explains HTTP2 is a PDF I have to
download. There's no HTML version.
(Yes, I'm aware that HTTP != HTML.)
------
teddyh
Still not even a _mention_ of SRV records in the “critiques” section. I’m more
saddened than surprised, really.
------
gaastonsr
Beautifully written, thanks for this.
------
jude-
> 8.4.4. “Not being ASCII is a deal-breaker”
> Yes, we like being able to see protocols in the clear since it makes
> debugging and tracing easier. But text based protocols are also more error
> prone and open up for much more parsing and parsing problems.
> If you really can't take a binary protocol, then you couldn't handle TLS and
> compression in HTTP 1.x either and its been there and used for a very long
> time.
First, you can have the best of both worlds of fixed-sized frames and human
readability: make sure each HTTP keyword has a finite, short length. ASCII
abbreviations are an acceptable means to this end. This would also eliminate a
lot of the implementation difficulties and performance penalties of writing
and using a parser.
Second, TLS and compression are not integrated into HTTP/1.1, meaning that
people who want to be able to read an HTTP stream on the wire can do so by
disabling these features. It's disingenuous to claim that people don't care
about human readability just because these extensions exist.
~~~
derefr
Why not just have the wire sniffer decode the frames before presenting them.
If you're interested in what's going on at the HTTP level, you aren't reading
packetwise IP packet dumps, because it's hard to make sense of anything and
everything is all mixed together; you're looking at _abstracted, higher-level_
flows, where it's just taken for granted that you have a set of linear TCP
streams.
HTTP2 is a(n SCTPish) transport-layer protocol squished in underneath an
application-layer protocol. Use tools that abstract away the transport-layer
protocol.
Or, just, y'know, disable HTTP2? It's an "optional feature" as much as TLS and
compression are. Everything that speaks HTTP2 also speaks HTTP1.1, just like
everything that speaks compressed/encrypted HTTP also speaks
uncompressed/unencrypted HTTP.
~~~
jude-
> Why not just have the wire sniffer decode the frames before presenting them.
Certainly possible, but why make our lives harder by implementing HTTP/2 such
that it requires a decoder to read in the first place? If the number of bytes
sent remains the same, why not make the fields as self-documenting as
possible?
> Everything that speaks HTTP2 also speaks HTTP1.1
No, they have fundamentally different wire formats. This statement isn't even
true for HTTP/1.1 and HTTP/1.0, which both have the same wire formats and
share many fields but have different interpretations for some of them.
~~~
MichaelGG
>Certainly possible, but why make our lives harder
I cannot imagine anyone that has written a compliant HTTP parser, or attempted
to make a fast HTTP implementation thinking the new framing is _harder_.
As the article mentions, yeah, it would be nice to be able to look through raw
captures. But overall, it's simply too much of a massive downside. It wastes
space and burns CPU for nearly zero benefit.
Text protocols make developers start treating them like text than protocols,
so you end up with a nightmare of things that look ok to humans but introduce
compatibility or security issues when parsing. Even getting line endings right
is a pain.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Action.IO could be a game changer - dko
http://blog.derrickko.com/actionio-could-be-a-game-changer
======
gexla
"Having a developer setup and manage a development environment is a great
learning experience. But it doesn't scale. Once you have a team, the time you
take to setup an environment is precious time wasted. And it gets even more
involved as your stack gets complicated."
Using Ansible (same idea as Chef and Puppet) I can go from zero to fully ready
(setup exactly as I want it) in less than 20 minutes, and my system does all
the work during that time. I can do this for as many servers as I need. Every
step of the process is scripted, so it does the exact same routine every time.
I can also regularly iterate my server scripts just like I iterate my dotfiles
for all my other tools.
These are my tools. They put bread on the table. I like for my tools to be
exactly how I want them and under my full control. Action.io will be
interesting to check out though.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Go Hack Yourself - renafowler
https://medium.com/@davepell/go-hack-yourself-cf56fc69de33#.pxvt076s3
======
jressey
Despite the argument here being obvious, what I like is that the author calls
out the reader. I have, so many times, said to myself "It's all the idiots
that buy the products and click the links that cause the world's problems." It
takes something like this for me to think "I clicked a ton of links that
covered shallow topics this election season, I should try to avoid doing that
next time."
------
dengel
I guess mainstream media is to blame regardless of who gets into office. After
years of hearing the media had a liberal/Democrat bias, now the author tells
me the media has a Republican bias. Oh, no, wait - a bias for the spectacular.
Is this really news to anyone?
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Synchronous Communication Is the New Cocaine in Silicon Valley - devtendo
======
jdauriemma
I recently visited SF and was appalled to see people synchronously
communicating everywhere. It wasn’t just my colleagues in the office; lovers
were synchronously communicating in nightclubs, friends were doing it in broad
daylight in Starbucks, and even homeless people were synchronously
communicating in the middle of the sidewalk. Just anecdotes but I thought I’d
share
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
The Difference Between SQL’s JOIN .. ON Clause and the Where Clause - pplonski86
https://blog.jooq.org/2019/04/09/the-difference-between-sqls-join-on-clause-and-the-where-clause/
======
snidane
The syntax for joins is unnecessarily complex. The difference in behaviour is
determined by the operator used for comparison between the two tables. If
there existed modifiers for the operators to be sensitive to nulls, no need
for special syntax would be needed.
If we define /<op> to make the operator include nulls on the left side and
<op>\ to include nulls on the right side, we can do joins of all kinds without
the JOIN ON syntax.
Example.
inner join
select * from a,b where a.id=b.id
left join
select * from a,b where a.id=\b.id
right join
select * from a,b where a.id/=b.id
outer join
select * from a,b where a.id/=\b.id
~~~
Svip
That's the old join syntax before ANSI SQL was designed. Except your operators
look like "* =" and "= *" (without whitespace of course, blame HN's markdown
parser). Sybase supported this syntax well into its version 15.x (maybe still
in version 16?). And Sybase did not (does not?) support full outer joins.
It may seem simple on the surface, but once you get into complex queries, it's
a horrible syntax, and it's easy to forget the relations between the tables,
particularly with several tables (4+) involved.
As someone who has converted an old and large SQL code base from non-ANSI
JOINs to ANSI JOINs, I am happy to see this style of syntax abandoned.
~~~
noisy_boy
IIRC, Oracle also supports this "* =" and "= *" syntax. I started with that
and then learned ANSI JOINs; was difficult initially because I was used to the
former syntax but I would agree that ANSI JOINs are more clearer/cleaner. That
and the "with" clause makes queries so much more readable.
------
sheeshkebab
Contrary to articles conclusion, there are databases (i.e. Oracle) where it
doesn’t matter how you write joins, but oracle also has support for
left/right/full outer joins in the where clause
Left join ... is the same as leftcol=rightcol(+) (oracle has special syntax
for this with that + sign).
In summary, depending on database, it may not matter how you write these
joins, but it’s best to stick to SQL standard using JOIN if you’d like cross
database support.
~~~
irrational
I have noticed that many authors of SQL articles don't seem to be aware of
Oracles quirks. For example, recently I read an article about NULLs in SQL.
The author didn't specify any particular database, but wrote as if what he was
saying applied to all relational databases. But Oracle treats empty strings
and NULLs as the same thing, which I don't think the article's author was
aware of.
~~~
panarky
"this may not continue to be true in future releases, and Oracle recommends
that you do not treat empty strings the same as nulls"
[https://docs.oracle.com/database/121/SQLRF/sql_elements005.h...](https://docs.oracle.com/database/121/SQLRF/sql_elements005.htm#SQLRF30037)
~~~
mcguire
How are we supposed to treat them differently? Oracle's the one putting the
damn nulls in the db.
(Recently tripped over this one.)
------
jimmytucson
As soon as you filter on the table you’re joining with in the where clause it
becomes an inner join.
FROM foo
LEFT JOIN bar ON ...
/* Makes it an inner join: */
WHERE bar.baz ...
~~~
astine
Only if you're resting for a non null value. If you test for a null value,
you'll be looking for all values in one table that don't have a match in the
other table.
~~~
Svip
Indeed, a faster way to check if a table does _not_ have a comparable row is a
LEFT JOIN with a WHERE NULL clause:
SELECT t1.* FROM t1 LEFT JOIN t2 ON t2.id = t1.foreign_id WHERE t2.id IS NULL
Is a lot faster than the naïve alternative:
SELECT t1.* FROM t1 WHERE NOT EXISTS (SELECT * FROM t2 WHERE id =
t1.foreign_id)
~~~
brokensegue
Unless the query is optimized?
~~~
Svip
For a simple query like this, then yes, it will be optimised. But once your
queries get more complicated, the optimiser might not be able to make that
deduction on its own.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: How did Firefox (Mozilla) land a deal with Google? - photon_off
I'm assuming that Firefox gets money through searches performed from its default start page and through the search box on the upper right of the browser.<p>Two part question:<p>1) How did this deal come about? Is there a program for this type of affiliate search? (What I've found requires you use the Google watermark and traffic must come from your domain).<p>2) How did Firefox secure this deal? It seams like Google could just decline to pay any money, and Firefox would still be reluctant to use a different search. If users prefer Google anyway, what incentive does Google have to pay Firefox?
======
yanw
Google wanted Firefox to succeed as much as Mozilla needed the money
basically, they backed them as a standard-compliant, opensource alternative to
IE, they even advertised them on the homepage back then.
~~~
sam_in_nyc
Why would Google continue to pay them for search referrals?
~~~
petervandijck
Coz 1. It's traffic, which is good for Google (they pay others for traffic
too)
2\. It's supporting a browser that's non-IE, which is also good for them,
strategically.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: Do you regret using an obscure language for something? - networked
======
itamarst
I once wrote a project for a consulting client using a then obscure Python
networking framework (Twisted). They had a hard time finding someone who could
maintain the code after I left, and had to rewrite it.
In general if you're handing code off to someone else you want to use
mainstream technologies.
You can hear the full story and other mistakes I've made over the years over
at [https://softwareclown.com](https://softwareclown.com).
------
NotAtHomeAcc
I used Scala for a few projects.
I won't do it again.
~~~
partisan
Please explain why you wouldn't.
------
wsmith
No. I once used an obscure, powerful language that was the only language that
offered a framework to solve a particular kind of problem. Other languages
didn't offer it. It's probably because of how powerful the language was that
it attracted the person that had written the framework.
I once also used an obscure, powerful language to solve a very common problem.
The language helped me think better and I was able to find a simpler solution
than the solution non-obscure, less powerful languages had found.
Maybe what to look for in a language isn't obscurity but power.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ganbreeder: A collaborative tool for discovering images - joelS
https://ganbreeder.app/
======
robotbikes
I see a bunch of creepy images that get creepier the more you click on them.
Might be better on my phone but I'm curious why the same 12 images are shown
at the start or if they vary based upon loads.
~~~
joelS
It's half random images and half random ones that are starred. So it does bias
to stuff that people starred.
------
jlee124
Creative idea to combine BigGAN and Picbreeder
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Marissa Mayer loses cash bonus over security breaches - sloanesturz
http://money.cnn.com/2017/03/01/technology/yahoo-marissa-mayer-security-breach/index.html
======
Clubber
I'd like to think some of this has to do with the fact that she forced all
remote workers to relocate or leave. Like it or not, there are a handful of
tech people in every organization that holds quite a bit of their company on
their shoulders. When you indiscriminately gut your workforce with something
as arbitrary as that, you're asking for trouble.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
How Lavabit Melted Down - jeanbebe
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/elements/2013/10/how-lavabit-edward-snowden-email-service-melted-down.html
======
jobu
The integrity and bravery he has shown in this fight is impressive. He has
definitely earned enough "cred" to restart this business outside the US and be
very successful.
~~~
moxie
We should celebrate Ladar for making the decision to put himself at risk in
order to protect his users, but I think we should be careful not to forget
that Ladar was forced to make that decision because the security of Lavabit
was all a total handwave.
This wasn't untested water, either. The exact same thing happened to Hushmail
for the exact same reason, and should have been evidence enough that the model
isn't viable.
So I think we should definitely support Ladar as a person, but we also need to
be careful not to confuse that with supporting Lavabit, which was a very real
danger that should never be repeated again (again).
~~~
anologwintermut
Unless he actually used properly implemented forward secure SSL for every
connection, which I doubt all of either his customers browsers or the SMTP
servers he talked to supported, didn't his choices actually put his customers
in more danger?
He could have complied with one of the several valid court orders that
requested he give the FBI data on a specific account but stopped short if
installing FBI code or devices on his system or handing over the keys. Had he
done so, it would have stop there.
Instead, it escalated to the point where he actually was forced to expose all
his users. Anyone who has transcripts of those connections (e.g the NSA), can
now read them, get the passwords, and decrypt any mail they got form the
server. It seems like a boneheaded move unless his only goal was to protect
Snowden at all costs.
~~~
angersock
According to the article, the FBI jumped straight to "give us all the SSL keys
for everything", and would not let him to that selective warrant.
He rightly observed that those leaked keys would then get into the hands of
God-only-knows-who.
~~~
anologwintermut
The story, as far as I have read from this article and others, was they asked
for data(probably with an NSL), he said no. They got a court order. He said
no. At some-point he was willing to cooperate, but by that point, they didn't
care because they thought he was jerking them around.They then requested the
SSL keys. This article is more clear about the exact sequence of events[0],
but the the posted one says so as well. The initial request was not for the
SSL keys.
From the newyorker article : "On June 10th, the government secured an order
from the Eastern District of Virginia. The order, issued under the Stored
Communications Act, required Lavabit to turn over to the F.B.I. retrospective
information about one account, widely presumed to be that of Snowden. (The
name of the target remains redacted, and Levison could not divulge it.) The
order directed Lavabit to surrender names and addresses, Internet Protocol and
Media Access Control addresses, the volume of each and every data transfer,
the duration of every “session,” and the “source and destination” of all
communications associated with the account. It also forbade Levison and
Lavabit from discussing the matter with anyone. "
Sometime after his initial refusal and then offer to comply with some caveats
that the fed's interpreted as stalling:
"Prior to the hearing on July 16th, the U.S. Attorney filed a motion for civil
contempt, requesting that Levison be fined a thousand dollars for every day
that he refused to comply with the pen-register order. EARLIER IN THE DAY,
Hilton issued a search-and-seizure warrant, authorizing law enforcement to
seize from Lavabit “all information necessary to decrypt communications sent
to or from [the account], including encryption keys and SSL keys,” and “all
information necessary to decrypt data stored in or otherwise associated with
[the account].” (emphasis mine)
[O][http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/10/lavabit_unsealed/](http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2013/10/lavabit_unsealed/)
~~~
trobertson
This is an inaccurate account of events. If you read the actual documents [1],
you can see that the FBI had exactly 2 demands: A pen register device,
attached to his servers; and his SSL private key. That is the sum total of
what they wanted: complete, near-real-time access to all of Lavabit's data. A
physical device to copy the server traffic and send it to the FBI, and the SSL
key, to decrypt that traffic.
The stated use of these two things was to get information concerning a single
person, but they never wanted just that information. On page 100, Levison
states that he can manage to get the information the FBI is looking for,
without providing the FBI with Lavabit's encryption keys. Someone
(AUSA[censored]) says that the proposed solution does not satisfy the
subpoenas and court orders, because it would not provide real-time access to
the data.
\---
[1]: [http://cryptome.org/2013/10/lavabit-
orders.pdf](http://cryptome.org/2013/10/lavabit-orders.pdf)
~~~
anologwintermut
It's entirely possible it's an inaccurate account of events. I haven't read
all of the primary documents, just secondary sources.
In your linked documents,Exhibit 1 is the original June 10th order. Attachment
A of it(page 4 of the PDF) details what he was order to hand over. It does not
mention SSL keys at all. Instead it asks for a bunch of meta-data. In fact, it
explicitly doesn't even cover communication contents. It also doesn't specify
how Lavabit has to execute the order, just that it must provide the data.
This was the order Lavabit apparently initially refused.
Can you point to the first point they demanded the SSL keys? The stuff on page
100 looks like it pertains to the July 16th order. Which is, again,
considerably after the June 10th order that originally asked for the data and
after Lavabit refused that order. Also, totally inline with narrative of
events as I presented it.
Regardin pen-registers: a pen-register can be done in software and is
typically done by the service provider, not the government. The term is an
anacranism dating back to telgraphs. It doesn't necessarly mean government
hardware or software[0]. Hence the discussion page 99 of the pdf about
"implementing the pen-trap device" in section d. So that's not blanket access
[0][http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pen_register](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pen_register)
~~~
scintill76
The June 10th order is on page 2, and seems to be only for the Target's
account details (not metadata on messages, AFAICT.) Page 19 (and again on 97)
says "Mr. Levison provided very little of the information sought by the June
10,2013 order." This sounds like he did not refuse it, and may have actually
not had much data to turn over since part of his business niche was to not
collect that kind of stuff. (Page 98 says "Levison claimed 'we don't record
this data'" although in context "this data" appears to be non-content message
data, which would not apply to the June 10th order.)
The June 28th order ("pen register/trap and trace order", page 7) is the one
he started refusing, then tried to negotiate on later. I think the order "that
Lavabit shall furnish agents from the Federal Bureau of Investigation,
forthwith, all information, facilities, and technical assistance necessary to
accomplish the installation and use of the pen/trap device" includes keys
implicitly. The June 28th Order Compelling Compliance Forthwith (to the
earlier order on the same day) notes, "To the extent any information,
facilities, or technical assistance are under the control of Lavabit are
needed to provide the FBI with the unencrypted data, Lavabit shall provide
such information, facilities, or technical assistance forthwith."
The first explicit order referring to keys seems to be the July 16th search
warrant, specifically Attachment B on page 36. According to page 98, FBI
agents discussed encryption keys with Levison as early as June 28th.
------
smsm42
The most scary quote in the whole article is this:
THE COURT: You want to do it in a way that the government has to trust you
/.../ THE COURT: And you won’t trust the government. So why would the
government trust you?
It was that the whole idea on which US is built on - the Constitution and
other founding ideas - was based on trusting the government only with very
little that is necessary for it to function and no more, and having the
ultimate power reside in the hands of the citizens. Now it comes to trust in
the government being implied and if the citizen doesn't trust the government,
he is not to be trusted and must be subjected to coercion. And that's coming
from courts, that are supposed to be protecting the constitutional rights.
America has come a long and very sad way since its noble origins.
~~~
SwellJoe
That quote made me feel sick to my stomach. I mean, I knew it had gotten that
bad...I've been involved in Restore The Fourth organizing, and before that
I've been paying close attention to all the previous leaks about the
surveillance state. But, knowing it and seeing a judge state it outright is
two very different things. It used to be under cover. It only happened in the
darkness of secret documents and agencies. Now, it's come out into the light
of day...and they're getting away with it. Not even getting away with it,
really...they're wearing it proudly, as though _they_ are the people in the
right; they honestly believe they are the people who have nothing to hide or
be ashamed of.
It's astonishing that more of our reps aren't standing up and shouting about
this. So many of the people in power are complicit, it feels hopeless at
times.
------
at-fates-hands
The fact the government wanted the SSL keys is obvious they wanted to get at
all his customers, not just the one they were targeting.
Levison offered multiple times to write a specific script for the single user
that would do what they wanted and at a minimal cost to the government - and
they refused. A pretty clear indication they wanted unfettered access to his
client base and his network.
Then you add in the lack of ANY oversight on either Lavabit's or the
government's, and you have to praise him for what he did.
~~~
65_196_127_226
Do you really consider the judicial warrant system a lack of ANY oversight?
After Levison's lack of cooperation, could the investigators really trust
Levison to hand over all the information?
~~~
lhc-
Why should Levison trust a government who has proven to be untrustworthy when
it comes to data collection? Levison didn't lie or mislead anyone, he even
offered to get the data for them as long as it was targeted. The government
has basically zero credibility in matters like this, and yet he was expected
to trust them with no oversight (in the article, he was told there was no
independent audit of their use of the data)?
~~~
MustBeAShill
What is this monolithic government you speak of? Are you saying that the FBI
and the NSA are synonymous? I'm sure plenty of FBI investigators would take
exception to an accusation like that.
I can play this game too. Dread Pirate Roberts used StackExchange, so
therefore StackExchange users cannot be trusted to build websites that don't
host drug deals and supposed hitmen.
~~~
jlgreco
Why the constant influx of throwaways?
------
ck2
I am blown away by the bravery, I know I'd never be so bold.
Also confused why he didn't end up in prison on mysterious "pervert" charges
out of the blue or even dead. And don't lecture me that is far fetched after
this past year.
~~~
tomp
Well, if they killed him, they probably wouldn't be able to get the keys. And
they probably had to keep the bigger "punishment", imprisonment, looming over
his head in case he reveals confidential information about the case.
~~~
jobu
It wouldn't surprise me if they had some sort of back door with Verisign or
other certificate companies for this.
~~~
alexwright
CA like Verisign don't have the key though, this misconception is too common.
If you're _doing it right_ the CA is just signing a cert you've generated,
they never see the key.
~~~
nitrogen
Having CA access _does_ allow them to create a silent MITM in the absence of
certificate pinning.
~~~
alexwright
With a different key though.
Once you've got this new cert. you can MITM, but you can't use it to decrypt
the traffic already captured. Also anyone paying attention sees the cert.
fingerprint change out of the blue.
~~~
delinka
A) Law enforcement doesn't need to decrypt previously-captured traffic; they
either want to fish for criminal activity or they'll allow their target to
build up new incriminating evidence. B) Who pays attention?
~~~
alexwright
A) That's what they were after though: “all information necessary to decrypt
data stored in or otherwise associated with [the account].” A rogue cert and
MITM would get the password for the account though, unless _B_.
B) Anyone who knows what they're doing and has something they really want to
keep secret? Maybe if someone had such a secret they'd learn to check the
cert, maybe even install an extension that would highlight unexpected changes.
------
lmm
The more I read the more sympathy I have for the government here. They had a
(presumably lawfully obtained) warrant against a specific user; it's not they
who designed lavabit such that it was impossible to execute this without
obtaining access to every other user. The proposal that Levison would extract
the information himself rather than turning over the keys strikes me as
completely unrealistic - any information so obtained would be quite rightly
thrown out of court, because there's no reliable evidentiary chain, only (in
effect) Levison's word. Even if he had turned over the SSL keys, the US still
has a fairly strong "fruit of the poison tree" doctrine: any information the
government happened to obtain on other users would be invalid for prosecution
because it wouldn't be covered by their search warrant.
~~~
fennecfoxen
> it's not [the government] who designed lavabit such that it was impossible
> to execute this without obtaining access to every other user.
That's true, but they're still essentially implying that services which are
explicitly designed to omit backdoor capabilities for the government to spy on
you -- that is, services offering actual cryptographically guaranteed privacy,
not just "no one has looked yet, and if they did, it'll all turn out okay in
the end trust us" \-- are broadly illegal and will get you criminal contempt.
~~~
smoyer
CALEA requires that all telephone companies (and now mobile phone and cable
companies) provide a means of "tapping" a phone line. To my knowledge, there's
nothing similar that says a data service has to provide the ability to
retrieve unencrypted data.
~~~
SideburnsOfDoom
What they required was more like the means to tap all the phone lines
simultaneously.
------
RyanMcGreal
> While he opposes the bulk collection of domestic communications, he has no
> such strong feelings about the N.S.A.’s foreign-surveillance efforts.
As a non-American, I have a problem with this seemingly widespread idea even
among privacy advocates in the USA that only Americans are entitled to the
protection of their rights from the American government.
~~~
betterunix
To be fair, _your_ government should be working to protect you from foreign
threats like this. You should not rely on foreign powers to protect you.
~~~
RyanMcGreal
Believe me, I'm not happy that my government is all-in on the American mass
surveillance game. But my specific concern here is with Americans who think
it's okay for the US government to conduct mass surveillance on the rest of
the planet, just not on Americans.
~~~
drivingmenuts
Because we never know where the next threat will come from, or perhaps the
threat after that.
Your country may be perfectly at peace with the US now, but there is no way to
guarantee that peace unless we have people to continually watch for potential
threats. Even that is, in itself, no guarantee, but it's better than nothing.
Maybe someday, mankind will be able to share universal goodwill and peace, but
until that time, trust, but verify, at a minimum.
~~~
jruthers
I call "Bullshit" on that.
For all of the talk about "all men created equal" and "do to others as you
would have them do to you", fundamentally Americans are brought up to believe
they are different or "exceptional" to other humans. This belief let's them
distort reality so that spying on innocent foreigners is ok but spying on
innocent Americans is an abomination. Hypocrisy.
Timothy McVeigh and others prove that the domestic threat to the US is as
serious as the foreign.
------
angersock
Of wonderful note:
_At approximately 1:30 p.m. CDT on August 2, 2013, Mr. Levison gave the
F.B.I. a printout of what he represented to be the encryption keys needed to
operate the pen register. This printout, in what appears to be four-point
type, consists of eleven pages of largely illegible characters. To make use of
these keys, the F.B.I. would have to manually input all two thousand five
hundred and sixty characters, and one incorrect keystroke in this laborious
process would render the F.B.I. collection system incapable of collecting
decrypted data._
I tip my hat to this magnificent bastard.
EDIT:
The core issue is summed up nicely thereafter:
_Levison believes that when the government was faced with the choice between
getting information that might lead it to its target in a constrained manner
or expanding the reach of its surveillance, it chose the latter._
------
selmnoo
For the fortitude he has shown in fighting the good fight, please consider
donating to his defense fund: [http://lavabit.com/](http://lavabit.com/) (link
at the end).
~~~
frenger
wtf? The site's [[https://lavabit.com](https://lavabit.com)] SSL cert been
revoked: [http://d.pr/i/sc71](http://d.pr/i/sc71) [IMG]
~~~
computer
Great!
It's because the private certificate was forcibly supplied to the government.
No longer secure => revoke it.
~~~
frenger
Ah, makes sense. I donated, anyway.
------
gregd
There is a huge disconnect between the "justice" system and technology which
needs to end. You've seen it before if you're in IT, that glazed eyes look
when explaining why their Word document is missing…
Anyone with judicial experience know if judges have trusted advisory panels
that can help wrap their heads around technology to better rule on cases such
as this?
~~~
frossie
You mean like Judge Alsup, who taught himself Java so that he could rule that
Oracle's APIs are not copyrightable? Or Judge Wells, who ordered SCO to show
him the code and then threw the case out when the failed to do so? We haven't
done so bad on tech judges recently - it seems to me that the problem with the
lavabit/NSA cases is not so much the technical side, but the classic one of
government powers, and the fact that there is no explicit constitutional
protections of privacy.
------
kbart
I still don't get one thing about this story:
>> To make use of these keys, the F.B.I. would have to manually input all two
thousand five hundred and sixty characters, and one incorrect keystroke in
this laborious process would render the F.B.I. collection system incapable of
collecting decrypted data
Don't FBI have some ultra DPI scanner with advanced OCR software? Let's say
they live under a rock, it's still not so hard to manually type ~2k characters
using magnifying glass. If so, what was the point to shut down Lavabit AFTER
turning in printed keys?
P.S. I still highly respect Lavabit and people behind it, but this point in a
story doesn't make sense at all.
~~~
andylei
what really happened is that the court then ordered him to turn over the key
on a CD, or continue to face the $5k / day fine. so he eventually did turn
over the key on a CD
~~~
adolph
Was it a bmp file on the CD?
I should read the article...
~~~
tadfisher
The order was to supply the key in PEM format.
------
jedbrown
News outlets keep repeating "11 pages of 4-point type totaling 2560
characters", which just doesn't match up since that number of characters fits
on one page in a fairly normal font size. Also, RSA keys just aren't that big,
so the 11 pages must have either been many keys or some other data.
As I understand Lavabit's architecture, there is no "master" key. Instead,
incoming mail is encrypted using an asymmetric per-user key. All the key pairs
were created by Lavabit and stored on-site, but locked by a password to be
provided over TLS. Since Levison probably didn't compromise his system to
store users' passwords, presumably the keys that he was handing over in
4-point type were still locked with a password.
~~~
CamperBob2
I don't understand why, if he was making a principled stand, he would have
bothered with the printout in 4-point type. That was sort of a juvenile move,
one that could only serve to justify the government's attitude towards him.
Weird.
------
danielweber
I've been skeptical of LavaBit, chalking it up to the general deification that
HN gives to its heroes du jour, but he really seems to have made a highly
principled stand while still allowing the government to intercept any
individual for which it had a warrant.
------
CamperBob2
Demanding the SSL keys to the entire database was clearly an insane overreach
on the FBI's part, a mistake that they compounded if it's true that they
refused to work with Lavar on the more targeted approach he suggested. I would
like to kick in some bucks towards Ladar's defense, but I'd rather do it
through the EFF (where I'm already a member) rather than rally.org, which I've
never heard of.
Does anyone have any experience with (or thoughts about) rally.org -- or, for
that matter, any knowledge of why the EFF isn't running point on this case?
------
smoyer
Is anyone else thinking that their systems should include a self-destruct
button? (for LavaBit I'd imagine a process that e-mailed each user the SSL key
used to encrypt their mailbox, then deleted the key from the system. A user
could still decrypt their mailbox by downloading it and using the key).
~~~
betterunix
The problem is that services like Lavabit want to do something that is
technically not possible: give you access to your encrypted mail from _any_
computer i.e. the convenience of webmail. If I can just download a key and
keep it on my computer, why would I not just _generate_ the key on my computer
by e.g. using PGP or S/MIME?
~~~
smoyer
No ... I meant a "red" button that could be used just prior to wiping the
servers clean. Your point is completely valid while the service is running.
~~~
krapp
Here's a Defcon talk about more or less that:
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1M73USsXHdc](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1M73USsXHdc)
~~~
dublinben
Thanks for sharing that link. I couldn't find that talk last time the question
of emergency data destruction came up.
------
65_196_127_226
The amount of support for Levison and ire toward the government in this case
is absurd. The FBI followed the Constitutional process of obtaining a warrant
for the information of the "one user".
I suspect that the only reason anyone cares about this case is because Lord
Snowden the Infallible deigned to grace Lavabit with his email traffic.
Would the internet outrage be the same if the targeted user was found out to
be a Goldman Sachs executive or a Westboro Baptist Church minister?
~~~
zentiggr
Well, if the hallowed FBI et al had actually taken the reasonable offers of
access to one user and not escalated it into full access to the entire
service's and customer's content/traffic, there might be a lot less to be
outraged about, hmm?
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
WhiteProxy: only allow yourself the Internet that's relevant - diiq
https://github.com/diiq/WhiteProxy
======
limmeau
Is that an API key in the source code?
~~~
leon_
Git is evil in that regard. I had a cookie file in one of my public Github
repos only a few days ago.
Ironically I explicitly took care to store all credentials in external files
outside the repository for that project. :/
------
defdac
This is not a proxy for caucasians.
~~~
diiq
Oops. I admit that is not an interpretation that even occurred to me.
~~~
coderdude
There is no need for an oops here. Anyone who makes a comment to that end
("this is for whites only", "display things white people like", etc) is simply
being an ass and making themselves look stupid for making bigoted remarks. I
don't know why you (the author of this code) were downvoted as you are quite
qualified to be the one asserting that you didn't interpret it like that. No
normal person would immediately jump to that interpretation.
~~~
epynonymous
it's a joke, get over it, i'm yellow, i did.
~~~
coderdude
Nonetheless, those types of comments are witless "jokes" that are
inappropriate for this forum -- and most venues of discussion for that matter.
You've made the mistake that I've somehow involved my personal feelings into
this. I simply want for us to maintain a respectable level of discourse in
this thread.
~~~
Synthetase
Yeah! I never want you to make fun of my peacoat. Or my scarf. And my oh so
awesome tastes. Ever. Again.
~~~
coderdude
Apples: skin color, sexuality, ethnicity
Oranges: peacoats, scarfs, personal tastes
If you want to take a jab at what I'm saying at least think through what
you've written before posting it.
------
tomotomo
I also seriously expected this to be a "stuff white people like" filter.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
E.P.A. to Seek 30 Percent Cut in Carbon Emissions - cjdulberger
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/02/us/politics/epa-to-seek-30-percent-cut-in-carbon-emissions.html
======
phkahler
Cap and trade is stupid. It's a form of "carbon credits" designed to create a
market for the likes of wall street while allowing for politics to also play a
role. The simplest thing to do is TAX the carbon coming out of the ground (oil
or coal) or coming into the country. This cost will automatically be passed on
to whomever uses that fuel in direct proportion to how much the use. However,
we continue to subsidize some carbon producers, so you can clearly see that
reducing emissions is NOT the primary agenda here.
~~~
throwaway_yy2Di
More to the point: a carbon tax introduces price certainty, which (naively)
allows efficient long-term planning. (Carbon _caps_ set volume by fiat; carbon
_taxes_ set price by fiat. The other variable floats with the market).
You can look at the EU carbon market's total failure as an example. It's a cap
system, where the price collapsed almost immediately, and so to date it has
had zero effect of any sort [0]. The cap right now is way above what the
market actually wants. It's useless.
The opposite -- price overshoots because of a too tight cap + demand
inelasticity -- could also be a _really bad thing_. Both directly from the
pain it causes, and indirectly from the predictable political backlash, which
would screw up something else in a new & more creative way.
[0]
[http://www.economist.com/node/21548962](http://www.economist.com/node/21548962)
~~~
smsm42
I'm not sure - how arbitrarily setting prices introduces certainty? Today the
Congress or EPA decides the price is X, tomorrow Republicans take the Congress
and the presidency and appoint the head of EPA which drops the price to Y,
then next cycle Democrats take the power and rise the price to Z, etc. etc. -
where's certainty in that? I don't see any objective way of setting such
taxes, and as such - any reason why they would be stable is the price is
purely arbitrary and thus subject to political games.
~~~
throwaway_yy2Di
Well it doesn't, no. IF you have stable government policies, than a carbon tax
would be a predictable cost, where a cap would be highly volatile. Obviously
if the policies are changing too, then you can't predict much of anything.
" _I don 't see any objective way of setting such taxes,_"
How about: estimate the economic damage of a marginal kg of CO2 (external
cost), and set the tax equal to that? [0]
As an order-of-magnitude guess: [total climate change damage] / [total CO2
emitted], both discounted to present dollars.
Not an economist.
[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigovian_tax](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigovian_tax)
~~~
bastawhiz
> stable government policies
You're a funny one.
------
spenrose
"Accounting for the damages [of unpriced externalities] conservatively doubles
to triples the price of electricity from coal per kWh generated"
[http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1749-6632.2010....](http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1749-6632.2010.05890.x/abstract)
~~~
rustyconover
All of our lungs should breathe a collective sigh of relief for not having to
deal with so many particulates from coal burning after these rules go into
force. Not to mention saving our water from pollution of coal ash.
It will be pleasant to have less of these types of plants in operation:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_Scherer](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_Scherer)
And this country will be just a little bit greener knowing, we don't need to
have trains crossing the country 24/7 from Wyoming just to keep the boilers
running.
~~~
smsm42
Is there any data that our lungs are seriously hurt by these particulates
right now?
>>> And this country will be just a little bit greener knowing, we don't need
to have trains crossing the country 24/7 from Wyoming just to keep the boilers
running.
We will have to get the energy from somewhere. The only viable alternative on
that scale that I can see is nuclear energy, but given current panic mood
about it, does not seem very likely. If not, are we ready to seriously cut
energy consumption and accept the accompanying life standards drop? I don't
think so.
~~~
mrbabbage
> Is there any data that our lungs are seriously hurt by these particulates
> right now?
There's a lot. From a health perspective, PM is _way_ worse for human health
than carbon dioxide. Here's two EPA fact sheets and a well-cited article:
[http://www.epa.gov/airquality/particulatematter/health.html](http://www.epa.gov/airquality/particulatematter/health.html)
[http://www.epa.gov/region7/air/quality/pmhealth.htm](http://www.epa.gov/region7/air/quality/pmhealth.htm)
[http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0048969799...](http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0048969799005136)
> We will have to get the energy from somewhere. The only viable alternative
> on that scale that I can see is nuclear energy, but given current panic mood
> about it, does not seem very likely. If not, are we ready to seriously cut
> energy consumption and accept the accompanying life standards drop? I don't
> think so.
Easy answer: natural gas. It's already a bigger source of electricity than
nuclear, and it'll inevitably play a large role in the grid in the future as
it neatly solves the dispatch problem (renewables can't really be controlled,
but NG plants can be dispatched at a moments notice to make up for lost
capacity).
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_sector_of_the_Unite...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_sector_of_the_United_States#Electricity_generation)
~~~
smsm42
I agree that gas is more clean then the coal, but speaking in context of
carbon emissions, does it really change that much? It's still burning
hydrocarbons.
~~~
mrbabbage
Yeah, it's a huge difference, and all you need is high school chemistry:
\- gas is CH4 (four hydrogens for every carbon). Oil is approximately CH2 (in
reality, it's slightly higher than two). Coal is approximately CH.
\- a CH bond has about 410 kJ / mol; a CC bond has about 350 kJ / mol
([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bond-
dissociation_energy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bond-dissociation_energy))
\- thus, you can calculate approximately how much energy is stored in each of
the above fossils per mole of carbon dioxide:
\- methane = 4CH = 1640 kJ / mol CO2
\- petrol = 2CH + CC = 1170 kJ / mol CO2
\- coal = CH + CC = 760 kJ / mol CO2
This is obviously a gross simplification, but hopefully you'll see the outline
of why gas is much cleaner than coal. Methane, since it's a gas, also burns
much cleaner than liquids or solids since you can better mix the fuel with
oxygen, so methane tends to produce much less particulate matter, soot, and
other products of incomplete combustion.
EDIT: spenrose below has a great point about uncombusted methane in the
atmosphere. Methane is a NASTY greenhouse gas, so it's absolutely worth taking
into account how natural gas production affects methane levels in the
atmosphere. Namely, there was a worrying metastudy a few months ago about how
natural gas production is quite leaky, which has nontrivial greenhouse gas
considerations: [http://news.stanford.edu/news/2014/february/methane-leaky-
ga...](http://news.stanford.edu/news/2014/february/methane-leaky-
gas-021314.html)
------
cwal37
I actually wrote something up on indirect carbon pricing in the US yesterday.
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7829683](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7829683)
TL;DR
EU carbon is trading at $6.88/tonne. Working back from an enrollment mailer I
found that TVA's green power program prices it at $42/tonne (in terms of lbs
of CO2 emissions avoided by purchasing blocks of renewable generation).
------
nospecinterests
When it comes to coal these efforts and those who support them seem to always
make the assumption that there is nothing that can be done to make burning
coal "cleaner". After working with the utilities industries (mostly natural
gas industries) I can tell you with 100% certainty that more than 80% of the
by products from the burning of coal, including CO2, can be removed using
scrubbing technologies and filters. In many cases the cost to install these
technologies are lower than the costs to convert a plant to natural gas. The
problem is that EPA regulations on coal are driving the costs up (by making it
harder to mine and transport) to the point where in the long run natural gas
is cheaper (though get a change in the US administration and that could sway
the other way again)(Edit: Which is why a lot of coal plants are being
converted to natural gas). My point is that if coal didn't cost as much as it
currently does (because of federal regulation) a number of technologies could
be installed that would enable coal plants to continue to be used with much
much less environmental impact.
~~~
pyk
Carbon capture and sequestration (CCS) of CO2 is still in very early
development and pilot testing, so costs are quite uncertain, and it is not in
use in any reasonably sized coal plant in the US. For all plants >60MW planned
to have CCS, they are either still in planning or under construction [1] (note
that 60MW is a relatively small power plant).
Quite separate from CO2, there are NOX wet/dry scrubbers and flue gas
desulfurization units (removal of SO2). While having a very helpful large
reduction in fine particulate (PM2.5) and ozone downwind health impacts (SO2
and NOX form PM2.5 and O3 downwind), it unfortunately does not remove CO2
emissions.
In talking to power companies, my guess is that natural gas is being switched
out for coal for many reasons, some more subtle. In part due to new PM2.5 and
ozone regulations, in part because in some years it has been cheaper than coal
due to new extraction techniques (fracking), and in part because it is easier
to dispatch natural gas plants (ramp up and down) to meet electricity demand
or high variance renewable energy generation like solar and wind (large spikes
in generation).
[1]
[http://sequestration.mit.edu/tools/projects/index_capture.ht...](http://sequestration.mit.edu/tools/projects/index_capture.html)
~~~
nospecinterests
Natural gas is not being switched out for coal. At least not in the USA. I
think that might be a typo. I unfortunately can not site a fancy link like you
have but from experience I can tell you that the actual costs I have
encountered for projects showed that the price of scrubber tech/equipment (and
installation) was less then the cost of a plant conversion from coal to
natural gas.
The costs of coal are higher than they were before and are growing. This is a
direct result of government regulation. The other problem is that these
regulations and the continual call for more is causing a great deal of market
uncertainty, which is also driving up costs (not just for the coal but for
equipment). Natural gas is currently not in the same position, it is cheaper
and less regulated (no mining regulations/legislation). Further, because there
has been so much drilled for there is a surplus (supply and demand ==> gas
costs are lower). This is mostly because of the lack of good, viable, stable
export terminals. So when some terminals open in the future we will see higher
natural gas prices.
~~~
pyk
Coal is being switched out for natural gas here in the US... as a specific
example, in 2012, see Plant McDonough right next to Atlanta, GA [1]. As I
stated before, the reason is in part due to the effects on air quality (an
externality), not just price. For Atlanta with this switch over, it has proven
air quality improvements (and no one was surprised by this since it was a coal
plant operating full blast right there next to Atlanta!).
I actually agree with you on several points. Agreed that the economics are
uncertain, and agreed that scrubbing is very useful, and is definitely worth
the cost vs. a full switch over to natural gas (but that doesn't ignore the
fact that a switch to natural gas happens for other reasons). And I agree with
you that natural gas has higher variance (historically at the least), and
higher future expected prices, particularly with exports.
[1] [http://www.georgiapower.com/about-energy/energy-
sources/natu...](http://www.georgiapower.com/about-energy/energy-
sources/natural-gas.cshtml)
~~~
nospecinterests
I replied the way I did because you wrote "my guess is that natural gas is
being switched out for coal for many reasons". That is not true. That is why I
said it might have been a typo. This is clear because in your reply above your
write the opposite, that coal is being replaced by natural gas. I agree with
this, and as you wrote above, 100%.
~~~
pyk
Can't edit now, but you're 100% correct, my typo was overlooked by me... three
(or more) times!
------
crazy1van
What's the deal with using 2005 as the reference date for the 30% cuts? Do we
not have more accurate carbon measurements since then? Is it to make the cuts
seem smaller since 2014's emissions are probably bigger than 05. There must be
some specific reason to pick a reference date of almost a decade ago. Any
thoughts?
~~~
cwal37
A few things:
1\. Your intuition about emissions being higher now is wrong. For NOx and SOx:
[http://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.cfm?id=15611](http://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.cfm?id=15611)
CO2:
[http://www.epa.gov/climatechange/ghgemissions/gases/co2.html](http://www.epa.gov/climatechange/ghgemissions/gases/co2.html)
2\. The recession messed with a lot of energy and consumption so that the
years from 2008-2012 or so are something of anomalies.
3\. There have been significant rollbacks and cuts to getting datasets
complete. It used to be we were only a year or two behind in lots of the
published federal data. I've found it to be far more scattershot today, and
sometimes just cross my fingers and hope they have managed to stay up to date.
That said, the EIA has mostly managed to stay on top of their annual
publications.
4\. Natural gas prices bottomed out a couple years ago, and we'll have a glut
of it for a while, keeping prices much lower than they were in the early
2000s.
5\. Coal plants are getting replaced with natural gas combined cycle because
of the fuel costs, and also because of new regulations on the new MATS stuff
(also in the link above).
6\. "Clean" coal has mostly been a bust. Duke Indiana's been trying to get
their gasification plant to full capacity for a while, and cost ovverruns has
resulted in them asking for rate increases. Also, carbon capture still isn't
up to snuff, and underground gasification never took off.
~~~
crazy1van
Interesting. Any idea why they picked the 2005 date to be the reference?
~~~
cwal37
Sorry it took a few days, but I couldn't get the numbers to work (couldn't
tell that they were using 2005), and now I know why.
[http://common-resources.org/2014/2005-vs-2012-in-epas-
propos...](http://common-resources.org/2014/2005-vs-2012-in-epas-proposal/)
And here's a good general breakdown of the proposed rule.
[http://www.vox.com/2014/6/4/5779052/how-to-figure-out-
which-...](http://www.vox.com/2014/6/4/5779052/how-to-figure-out-which-states-
get-hit-hardest-by-obamas-climate-rule)
------
waps
This is not true at all, or at least it's only true from a narrow US view of
the world :
[http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-05-31/obama-step-
forward-...](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-05-31/obama-step-forward-on-
carbon-undone-by-china-s-steps-back.html)
And let's not get any illusions. One of the main real changes in the world
that make this possible is outsourcing of production to China, where instead
of a mix of oil, nuclear and coal, goods will be produced with nearly
exclusively coal. Obama is not an idiot and knows this.
His voters seemingly are not so aware.
So what it should really say is something along the lines of "in an attempt to
improve earbon emission numbers in the US, the EPA doubles worldwide carbon
emissions, in cooperation with it's European counterpart, moving the emissions
where they are not counted on his report card".
~~~
spenrose
Outsourcing manufacturing to China can increase emissions; closing coal plants
in the USA does not affect in or outsourcing; therefore your summary is false.
~~~
ams6110
Expensive energy here vs. cheap energy in China certainly would factor into
outsourcing decisions.
~~~
Daishiman
Energy is going to get a lot more expensive in China from here on too.
------
melling
So, by 2030 even if the US cuts emissions by 30%, aren't there going to be 2-3
billion people in emerging markets moving up the economic ladder who will use
a lot more energy.
Sure 300 million Americans are currently using a lot of energy but we're going
to be much smaller part of the problem by 2030.
~~~
mhurron
It doesn't solve it all, so we shouldn't do anything?
~~~
crazy1van
That's a false choice. There are more options than either doing nothing or
doing something predictably ineffective.
------
tgb
Does anyone know of a study on how effective such programs have been in the
past (assuming it passes and isn't significantly overturned by the courts)? As
in, what is the expected success rate of long-term plans of the US government
(or other nations)?
~~~
paulyg
Look at Germany and Canada (specifically Ontario). Not so good.
------
Zak
Good plan. Let's build some nuclear plants.
Oh, wait. Not politically viable? It should be:
[http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/03/deaths-per-twh-by-energy-
so...](http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/03/deaths-per-twh-by-energy-source.html)
~~~
anigbrowl
Actually it is politically viable, we're building the first new addition to
our nuclear fleet for 30 years: [http://www.ajc.com/news/news/breaking-
news/a-65b-federal-loa...](http://www.ajc.com/news/news/breaking-
news/a-65b-federal-loan-guarantee-jolts-ga-nuclear-powe/ndWgF/)
~~~
paulyg
That plant broke ground before Fukushima. How many permits have been issued
since then: 0. Perfectly good nuclear plants like Vermont Yankee have been
shut down (decided not to renew operating license) due to "concerned citizens.
We were headed to a nuclear power renascence until that accident happened and
took the wind out of the sails.
~~~
anigbrowl
If it had taken the wind out of the sales then we could have skipped the $6.5
billion federal loan guarantee we issued last February, which is mentioned in
the article I linked to.
As for Vermont Yankee, the operating license was renewed in 2011 and remains
valid until 2032, but Entergy said that a mix of price controls and economic
inefficiency for a small single-reactor design made it uneconomical to
continue operations:
[http://www.entergy.com/news_room/newsrelease.aspx?NR_ID=2769](http://www.entergy.com/news_room/newsrelease.aspx?NR_ID=2769)
Vermont's senate voted against a future renewal of the plant's license, but
since this wouldn't have been an issue for almost two decades I don't think
it's that big of a deal:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vermont_Yankee_Nuclear_Power_Pl...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vermont_Yankee_Nuclear_Power_Plant#Controversy_and_operations)
The fact is that the federal government is putting its money where its mouth
is as regards Georgia, and with the President about to announce a target of
cutting US CO2 emissions by 30%, the door is open for other nuclear projects.
A bigger problem for the industry has been the fall in power prices due to the
huge surplus of natural gas that currently obtains in the US, with no sign of
decline any time soon.
------
rrggrr
I hypothesize that with two years remaining, President Obama is again
delivering big for the Futuregen 2.0 project in his home state. I mean, if he
was really looking to reduce carbon emissions he might make that a priority in
his dealings with China and Russia and the developing world. This is politics,
not policy in my opinion.
~~~
anigbrowl
Why, so he can get re-elected? Absurd. the sticking point with getting the
BRIC and other developing nations to cut emissions has been the US failure to
lead in doing so. The recent Supreme Court ruling that the EPA is authorized
to regulate pollution that crosses state lines is a sea change and has been a
long time coming.
~~~
rrggrr
He is unemployed in two years. The BRIC sticking point is reality. Economic
reality.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Not Everyone has to go to College - mikekarnj
http://blog.skillshare.com/post/5100283758/lets-start-a-learning-revolution
======
CodeMage
I agree with you on a lot of points, especially the following two:
1\. College doesn't guarantee success.
2\. Not everyone should go to college.
But here's where we diverge: I believe we'll never get to the point where
everyone will "succeed". We all want our kids to succeed, but our definition
of success is usually based on things like "have a high-paying job", "be
important", "be powerful" or "be famous". This is because we want our kids to
be happy and we come up with cookie-cutter solutions for happiness: "have a
high-paying job" supplants "not have to have headaches about money", "be
important", "be powerful" and "be famous" supplant "be harder to oppress by
society or more powerful people".
To me, that seems to be a more fundamental problem than the problem of
education and one a lot harder to solve. Disclaimer: Please don't take this as
a criticism; on the contrary, when you have two important problems and you can
see the solution to the one that's easier, it's a lot better to try to solve
it than to sit down and lament the fact that you can't solve the harder one.
That said, I believe that we should define "success" differently for our kids.
I believe we should give them a different goal: happiness. Believe it or not,
you don't have to achieve greatness to be happy. As long as you can enjoy your
work, your family and your life in general, you can be happy, without Leaving
Your Footprints In The Sands Of History.
That doesn't mean we shouldn't teach our kids to strive to achieve as much as
they can. It just means that we should try to encourage them to look for their
own path to happiness. It shouldn't matter if theirs doesn't happen to pass
through fame, power, influence or riches, as long as it leads them to
happiness.
~~~
adrianN
While I agree that striving for happiness is a totally acceptable goal in
live, I think it's a bit egoistic. I would not teach my children to seek power
or riches, but to work to "better themselves and the rest of humanity". If the
can't leave their own footprints, they can at least try to help others in
doing that.
I want humans to achieve cool things -- build AIs, end disease and death, and
settle on other planets. If everybody sought their own happiness I fear that
progress would be much slower.
~~~
CodeMage
Although your sentiment is laudable, you seem to confuse goals and values. A
goal is something to achieve, while values are what you teach your children to
shape their struggle to achieve their goals.
Like I said in my comment, I don't mean to imply we shouldn't teach our kids
to strive for great achievements. There's nothing to say they can't be happy
striving to "better themselves and the rest of humanity"; nor is there
anything to say that seeking happiness precludes bettering yourself and
others.
Bear in mind that I'm talking about happiness, rather than gratification. I'm
not proposing to teach our kids to be hedonists. Just because I'm not content
or satisfied all the time, doesn't mean I'm not happy. To quote Frank
Herbert's "Children of Dune":
_"Tell me, Namri, are you content?"
"No." The words came out flat, spontaneous rejection.
"Then do you blaspheme?"
"Of course not!"
"But you aren't contented. You see, Gurney? Namri proves it to us. Every
question, every problem doesn't have a single correct answer."_
------
mikle
First a bit of criticism - I don't like this way of presenting. 193 slides?
Each with one sentence? This is borderline maddening and if this wasn't a
topic I was interested in I wouldn't have made it even 30 slides in. A tl:dr
would just tell you to skip to slide 160.
Not only that but the parts about Skillshare itself are so disguised that I
still don't have a firm grasp of why should I go there and what can I do there
besides "learn" (I can just google a cupcake recipe, why should I learn
through you?).
Now about the content itself - as someone from outside of the US, I'm amazed
and frightened at this phenomenon. There were similar threads on reddit with
people with over 200,000$ of debt. This is irrational and borderline
irresponsible to owe someone so much money. I think education should be
reconsidered and a better method tried. With the internet and the wealth of
information on it, I find it hard to believe we can't optimize and improve
upon the current education structures.
Edit: After exploring the site, I think I really like it. I'd probably like it
more if I lived in NY, where most of the classes take place :) I think this
idea is great and worth expanding,
I think, since your site is fairly young, it will benefit a user voice page,
since I can think of tonnes of things I'd like to see there.
~~~
mikekarnj
I actually presented all 193 slides in less than 15 minutes. The format was a
huge hit with the audience.
~~~
sebkomianos
I liked every single of my clicks.
------
exi
Great read. I'd like to say that I've been okay with my decision to drop out
of college. Yet several years later all I've found is that 98% of companies
now want a BA just to answer phones. A number of friends that I went to school
with cruised their way through with C averages. I would be amazed when they'd
ask me to read some of their senior level work and it would have the spelling
mistakes of a 2nd grader. They spent most of their time at parties while being
supported financially by their parents. Meanwhile I was attending the funeral
of mine and facing homelessness, so dropping out was what was right for me at
the time.
Now I'm the idiot for not having a degree, while those same guys I knew all
have fantastic jobs. I think that many companies just use degree requirements
as resume filtering tools and nothing more. It doesn't seem to matter that you
can't write or that you learned nothing.
~~~
rm445
That's harsh, and I hope things work out for you, but there is another thing
going on here - a constant treadmill of qualifications is becoming the norm in
many industries. You _might_ be doing your career harm if you isolate yourself
from the main stream of academic qualifications that makes up that treadmill.
Those friends who cruised through school and have good careers, did they
actually stop at a BA? Or do they have, say, accountancy qualifications?
Masters degrees gained while working? Memberships of professional
institutions, working towards being chartered in their profession?
Obviously I don't know the answer to that, and it varies a lot between
industries - many programmers here on HN get by fine with talent and
experience, and don't feel pushed to gain extra qualifications. But depending
what you do, qualifications can open doors to other qualifications and over a
long career it might make quite a bit of difference.
------
m0th87
Not everybody _does_ go to college; in fact, less than a third of Americans
do.
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational_attainment_in_the_U...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational_attainment_in_the_United_States)
~~~
gemenon
The percent of Americans age 25+ who attended college (some college) is 55.6%,
so it is clear we are seeing well over half of Americans attend college if you
include those under 25.
------
bryanwb
to do well economically in the modern world, whether as an auto mechanic,
computer engineer, reporter, nurse, etc. is: 1) solid writing skills,
preferably in English 2) strong reading comprehension, preferably in English
3) Basic grasp of math up through and including statistics
so while you don't need college/university you absolutely need 1-3. I picked
up #1 in university because i went to a lousy, impoverished high school. I
mostly taught myself #2 and #3. A new learning community focused on narrow
skill acquisition won't help students acquire 1-3.
Investing in basic education will fix these problems, both investing in
teachers and in pushing kids to just _fucking study_ and take learning
seriously.
This article is the "High Cost of Low Teacher Salaries"
[http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/01/opinion/01eggers.html?_r=1...](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/01/opinion/01eggers.html?_r=1&src=me&ref=general)
is much more relevant in my opinion.
best of luck w/ skillshare but please don't think it will teach calculus to
people who can't add.
While mikekarnj has some interesting points about education and the obvious
higher ed bubble, he is apparently unaware of education concept of
"scaffolding" <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instructional_scaffolding>
------
JTCJr
The freakenomics podcast guys answered a listeners question regarding 'does
college still matter?'
Worth checking out the answer just for the unambiguous the answer is. (Answer
starts at 3:00)
[http://freakonomicsradio.com/does-college-still-matter-
and-o...](http://freakonomicsradio.com/does-college-still-matter-and-other-
freaky-questions-answered.html)
[Spoiler alert: the answer is 'hell yes' (paraphrased).]
~~~
edderly
Interesting to listen to that. Though to be fair the question was whether
college was no longer a factor or a disadvantage to gaining employment.
You can't argue with the global statement over time college education results
in a greater income on average. However, what was pointed out in the OP was
how balanced is the average?
Also I thought Levitt's point about comparing Vietnam draft high number
lottery 'winners' not going to college versus lower number lottery winners
attending college was weak simply because it was _40_ years ago.
------
dexterchief
I have been seeing quite a few posts in this vein on HN and they really
disturb me. While I think its clear to everyone that there are problems with
the education system, I have a real problem with encouraging people to drop
out of, or not attend higher education. Questioning the value of your
education is one of the many privileges an education affords you.
The experience we have as IT people is really deeply skewed. The IT industry
really barely existed ~25 years ago. Saying that education doesn't matter
because a handful of high-school/college/university dropouts made it big
riding the coattails of an enormous technological change is really misguided.
We get away without credentials here and there simply because so much of this
stuff is so new. This is a quirk of this particular moment in time. It won't
last. Once that change settles down, degrees will be required for just about
every IT job. Hell, that's getting to be the case already.
This statistic about 17 million Americans having degrees in jobs that don't
require them has appeared a few times in various articles. It's said as though
the people went to school _intending_ to be an overqualified waiter. If that
were the case, I would agree that is a terrible waste. With years of
aggressive outsourcing, the effective destruction of the manufacturing sector
behind us, and a recession all around us, can we really accept that statistic
just as it is offered to us?
If student loans have just surpassed credit card debt I agree that is a
problem. But if education is to expensive then do something about the cost of
education. Don't go telling people to drop out and have their world view
shaped by something as meagre as a job or a bit of travel. The only way to
develop your brain is to have someone push you to think. Hard. Yes there are
examples of this happening outside school but not as many as you think.
Really I think uneducated people are social equivalent of infected PC's on a
network; they make things bad for everyone. More education, not less is
crucial if we are going to make any progress as a society.
Just my two cents.
~~~
sebkomianos
> Really I think uneducated people are social equivalent of infected PC's on a
> network; they make things bad for everyone. More education, not less is
> crucial if we are going to make any progress as a society.
But the question is, do we get an education from colleges that we wouldn't be
able to get without them?
------
Maro
I agree with most of what you said. I also like the idea of Skillshare.
But, watching the slides, jumping from "you don't have to go to college" to
Skillshare gave me the impression (even though the slides didn't say) that
Skillshare is a substitute for a college education, which it clearly is not.
Based on the current courses, it's more like a "social tradeschool". I'm not
saying you are misleading, but the presentation may be.
------
matt1
I was really blown away by the quality of the two minute video at the bottom
of the post. Anybody have an idea about how much a video of that caliber
costs?
------
patrickgzill
I have a client, older guy, with 3 children - 2 older boys, youngest, a
daughter is about 19 yo.
The 2 older boys both have degrees, the youngest dropped out despite good
grades (chosen degree: English major) saying it wasn't what she wanted to do -
and got a job at Panera Bread, where she is rather quickly moving from cashier
to training.
The old guy is really stressed about it, to him and his generation, if you
don't have a degree, you have no real future.
Given that the daughter is doing well, has essentially zero debt, is not
addicted to anything, and enjoying her job and getting promoted--in contrast
to many who are having trouble landing any kind of job; well, I am trying to
nicely tell him not to worry so much.
------
flooser
This post is going to be downvoted. This is not a personal attack.
The basic question is, why the hell don't you learn for the sake of learning.
I did that. Promise. I have an inability to study for grades. So fine, I am
doing ok. I took classes, I really enjoyed them (though I struggled a lot),
and I learnt a lot. I love school - its the best way to learn things in a
structured way, and meet really crazy smart people doing that.
I'll be honest though, I went to pretty selective school - it took me a while
to get in (but I did) and it was really an awesome experience. M.I.T. was an
especially great experience.
But of course, you are entitled to your opinion, and so am I.
------
gavanwoolery
I wrote about this topic here: [http://altdevblogaday.org/2011/04/14/the-
difference-between-...](http://altdevblogaday.org/2011/04/14/the-difference-
between-a-degree-and-an-education/)
I think that it boils down to more than just sharing skill sets, but that is
certainly a good start. I argue that primarily, people have to become
autodidacts and learn from the wealth of free information that can be found on
the internet and elsewhere.
------
TheRevoltingX
I never even finished High School, and now I earn more/do less than my college
degree holding co-workers. I have the advantage of being a programmer though,
where skill is at least measurable to some degree and college education isn't
as important.
It's actually taboo, but we now assume that someone who graduated from college
probably sucks but is willing to do boring tasks.
~~~
dedward
I'm curious to know your thoughts on what your feelings are on your own
children's educations. Will you advise them to drop out of highschool and
start working? Are you expecting them to go to university?
~~~
TheRevoltingX
Well, I'd have to admit that not every kid excels at something, or is special,
including my own. That decision seems like it would need to happen as the
child is growing up. If they exhibit signs of being fast learners where the
education system is actually slowing them down. Then yes, I'd probably advise
them not to go. Or if they want to go, to try their best to get at a top-tier
school (i.e. MIT.) Certainly things like Devry and Phoneix university I would
consider a joke.
However, if they exhibit signs of being average then I would push them to get
a degree. Because at least they'll know how to follow some sort of procedure
and get a decent job without really needing to excel beyond their peers.
In reality though, I'm sure it won't be such a black and white problem.
~~~
flooser
eg. instead of i.e., and yes, I did go to M.I.T.
------
supervillain
There's an essay called "College Uneducation" by Jorge Bocobo, which tackles
about current social problems involving learning. He specified each problems
and called it Book-worship, Misguided Zeal, Professional Philistinism, etc. If
you want to learn more about the current social problems of learning, try
reading his views.
------
pnathan
Not everyone has to go to college.
Everyone should have a trade, though. And there needs to be some framing of
background - call it 'education' - to be able to have a cultural awareness and
to also ably manage practicing ones trade.
------
guynamedloren
I realize the topic of discussion here is whether or not college is
important/useful, but as a sidenote I just have to say that your animation was
absolutely stunning! Excellent work!
------
ascendant
I didn't finish my college degree after I got into programming professionally
and I honestly am disappointed I didn't. I can write software but I feel a lot
of times I know how things go together the way they do, but not the why. There
are times when I wish I knew the theory behind things instead of just knowing
the syntax. I think the takeaway is that unless you're going to a really
expensive school for the alumni network, find a low price school with good
teachers and go for the knowledge. The degree at the end is a nice bonus but
having that theory to back up your practice will take you to the next level.
~~~
sebkomianos
I am graduating from a University of London college in a few days and I can
guarantee you it's not worth it.
Whatever you are interested in, pick a book and study about it. If you are
having trouble, go online and ask. What more can a college give you?
~~~
ascendant
A degree. No matter what people tell you it will open doors for you. After 10
years in the industry I can tell you it will get you in the door in certain
places.
~~~
sebkomianos
That happened 10 years ago, sure. And still happens in a lot of places but
these places just follow: Once some major voices go "Yeah, higher education is
no big deal", these places will start considering other things.
I've been sending emails about job opportunities as crazy lately and I am
really glad that the majority of the people I talk to ask me for samples of my
work in terms of coding and or project design rather than instead of exams
results.
And it's sad that I don't have a lot of things to show because I've been
thinking that I'll be okay just by doing the silly coursework.
------
rkon
_"College is expensive. Learn how to make cupcakes and knit sweaters
instead"_. That's the message I get after visiting your site and watching the
promo video on the "About" page.
Why should I pay $25 to spend 2 hours with a random person who may or may not
be a competent teacher? You trash college a lot, but you don't do anything to
inspire confidence in the Skillshare teachers or 'curriculum' (if there is
any).
------
smcj
The problem is that in the united states access to colleges and universities
has shifted from those who are gifted to those who can pay it.
How long can a society afford it to let gifted people clean desks and wash
cars instead of giving them the education they deserve to create benefits for
the society?
Every educational system which expects people to pay tuitions gives a up long-
term benefits for a short-term monetary gain.
Additionally it teaches young people that it is OK to have debts. It is not.
Never. Don't buy what you can't pay.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
The Evolution of Trust - fwx
http://ncase.me/trust/
======
cJ0th
Great idea and nicely done. Having said that, this is quite depressing. While
the creator does give some positive tips at the end re what we can do to
change the situation, they're hardly of any help. The problem is that we can
never be quite sure what kind of game we find ourselves in at a given point in
time. I've met many "genuinely warm-hearted" people who have stopped being
approachable cold turkey whenever they found they've received enough of what
they were after. Could be a couple of hours or a couple of years. Before that
point they were very reciprocating, though
And so I've grown tired of reaching out to people. There simply have been too
many let downs. I mean I don't even expect people to return favors. It's just
hard to see "friendships" end abruptly after, say, 2 years just because the
other person changes his/her set of goals. In other words, you learn that all
the times you had fun together you actually never had a friend.
I wonder whether this kind of behavior has become more prevalent in recent
years. I'd like to believe that 10 years ago I was better at seeing through
people. But these days? It feels like many people have got the pretending of
being genuinely nice down to a fine art.
~~~
brudgers
It is always easy to justify non-cooperation. The demo even provides one by
showing that partial non-cooperation provide the greatest economic benefit. If
the benefit was measured differently, say in terms of character, then the
conclusion might be different. Or to put it another way, economic gain may or
may not be the best way to decide if cheating is ok.
I mean one of the premises of the simulations is killing off the poor to make
room for the rich. Accepting, based on the simulation, that partial non-
cooperation strategies are ok means accepting that premise.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Organized Crime Pays - zaroth
http://www.vice.com/read/organized-crime-pays-0000477-v21n10
======
zaroth
As a pay scale, it's an interesting model. Start under-market, face a thorough
weeding-out process, and end up quite rich. But I doubt this idea is so
'democratic' in practice.
How about a tech company offering such a pay scale? For one, it would
discourage people from job hopping there with no intent to stay for the long
term. Also, it recognizes that the value of a good dev increases exponentially
as they gain deep understanding of your systems. Some company's sure to have
tried this.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Sega and NeuroSky To Make Mind-Controlled Toys - shayan
http://blog.wired.com/gadgets/2007/12/sega-and-neuros.html
======
ivankirigin
This related tech is also very cool: <http://www.think-a-move.com/>
Voice based control, tongue based control, and eventually thought based
control.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Exercising but Gaining Weight - prostoalex
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/11/12/exercising-but-gaining-weight/?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur&bicmp=AD&bicmlukp=WT.mc_id&bicmst=1409232722000&bicmet=1419773522000&abt=0002&abg=0&_r=0
======
teen
Running on a treadmill for an hour is about 600 calories. Eating an extra
snack before bed can easily be that. To be calorie deficient and lose weight,
it is so much easier to eat less than to exercise more. On top of that,
exercising more can stimulate your appetite... leading to over eating.
Basically you just have to be vigilant with not eating too much. I don't think
counting calories is important, but 3 small meals (by american standards) or 2
regular meals a day, with low carbs, no sugar, and low dairy, will drop you to
normal proportions very quickly.
~~~
phlosten
I made massive changes to my diet a few months ago, after being diagnosed with
Type 2 Diabetes. The doctor said diet and exercise needed. Trying to keep it
simple I didn't worry about the exercise, just changed the diet, the weight
started falling off easily, as long as I ate regularly and kept my carbs to
what was required.
I started riding to work this week. I am so god damn hungry right now.
I think if you are really needing weight loss you need your doctor involved.
There is so much I have learned through having blood test results etc to work
from.
My tips if you are interested:
* Cut out any added sugar. No sugar in coffee or whatever. Easy way to reduce energy intake. No more soft drink. * Have enough carbs each meal so your body hormones etc are getting stuff to work with. * Stay away from processed foods, keep out of those aisles. * Make exercise a normal part of life and skip the gym. Gyms are demotivational hell holes of despair. Climb the stairs at work, ride the bike, park further away, just go for a walk around the block, walk randomly around the city to explore.
~~~
cschmidt
> * Have enough carbs each meal so your body hormones etc are getting stuff to
> work with.
Your body doesn't actually need any carbs to function. It can run off of
ketones rather than glucose. You might be interested to look into the keto
diet, which works beautifully for people with diabetes. You eat low carb, but
high fat. The FAQ of /r/keto on reddit is a good place to start.
~~~
toomuchtodo
Keto In A Nutshell:
[https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gZfJejOM8fJsX1iCilmnpp1q...](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gZfJejOM8fJsX1iCilmnpp1qmT_KncJwWCR4-EsaEHc/edit?pli=1)
/r/keto FAQ:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/keto/wiki/faq](https://www.reddit.com/r/keto/wiki/faq)
------
rdtsc
People are ridiculously bad at estimating the caloric content of food they
eat. We can see the volume of food, feel the weight, taste it but we cannot
without practice and training easily guess how many calories it will be.
Also people are just as bad at estimating how many calories they would burn by
exercisng or walking.
We've all heard it -- "I'll need to walk around the block after eating that
piece of cheese cake" phrase. I've said it myself many times. Even though I
know it will take hours and hours of walking around a very large block to burn
it off so to speak.
One more thing. There is a negative aspect of exercising in relation to weight
that is often overlooked. Because of the pervious 2 points, people who do
exercise will rationalize eating more food because "they will burn them off in
15 min on treadmill".
Now I am using "calories" here in a simplistic way, but we had long
discussions before about how it is not as simple as calories and calories out.
It is bit more complicated -- hunger, hormones, insulin level, fat storage
rates etc.
~~~
SoftwareMaven
People are bad at estimating calories, but our bodies are really good at
regulating them, if you feed it properly. The low fat diet advice has done
horrendous things to people's metabolisms, leaving people insulin and leptin
resistant. The insulin resistance disregulates the flow of fat through adipose
membranes, favoring storage; the leptin resistance disregulates the appetite
homeostasis that should regulate appetite, hunger, and weight. It can all be
tracked back to the disproven diet heart hypothesis, and the fear of fat that
ensued (and became enshrined like a religion).
------
mmastrac
I'll add my single datum here. I lost a bunch of weight using the Hacker's
Diet [1] when I was in university. I've occasionally put myself back on it as
I get older, but there are two things that I believe are true about the way
that I personally lose weight:
1) Losing weight while exercising is tough. I usually choose diet or exercise
at any given time (or just light exercise so I'm not completely unfit by the
end of the diet). I've had poor luck with exercise to lose weight, but it is
very effective for maintaining it.
2) Fasting at the start of the diet -- and only at the very beginning -- seems
to be critical to my success at losing weight [2]. Perhaps this has something
to do with gut bacteria, metabolism or some psychosomatic factors. I'm not
sure, but I basically cannot lose weight without that start.
As an aside, I've been very tempted to start an intermittent fast (even while
not losing weight!) after seeing Michael Mosley's program on BBC a few years
back. [3]
[1]
[https://www.fourmilab.ch/hackdiet/www/hackdiet.html](https://www.fourmilab.ch/hackdiet/www/hackdiet.html)
[2]
[https://www.fourmilab.ch/hackdiet/www/subsubsection1_3_3_0_3...](https://www.fourmilab.ch/hackdiet/www/subsubsection1_3_3_0_3_4.html#SECTION0330340000000000000)
[3]
[http://www.bbc.com/news/health-19112549](http://www.bbc.com/news/health-19112549)
------
sytelus
Anyone with even a rudimentary training knows this fact: Exercise don't help
you loose weight. Even the heavy routines burn minuscule amount of calories
that would be compensated by just couple of slices of bread. Exercise helps
you build cardio and/or muscle strengths which is very different than loosing
weight. The only sure shot way of loosing weight is diet control. Just stop
eating simple carbs (aka white floor/grain/corn stuff and sugars from non-
natural sources) and you can drop weight and keep it that way.
~~~
dragonwriter
> Exercise don't help you loose weight. Even the heavy routines burn minuscule
> amount of calories that would be compensated by just couple of slices of
> bread. Exercise helps you build cardio and/or muscle strengths which is very
> different than loosing weight.
Increased muscle mass produces increased resting metabolic rate -- exercise
often isn't a short-term help to losing weight, but its a long term help.
More importantly, "losing weight" is usually not the real objective, its a
proxy measure for _improving overall health and fitness_ , for which exercise
is useful, even without weight loss.
------
jacorreia
This study shows a bit of what the general public really needs to understand
about personal health: it's very hard to train multiple aspects of your
fitness with only one type of activity.
Doing cardio makes you better at cardio. Strength training makes you stronger.
Diet and hypertrophy improves your body composition.
You'll always hear people say "Oh your legs must be so strong from all those
marathons you do." Entirely false, their cardio-vascular system is strong. I
can virtually guarantee that any moderately dedicated powerlifter can squat
more than a long-distance runner (form notwithstanding). Similarly, a
marathoner's lean physique is a result of their diet, which they require in
order to be successful at running, not because of their training.
I really wish that more people would take the time to sit down, identify their
fitness goals, and ensure that their lifestyle is focused towards achieving
their goals. For most people, all this is taking a good look at your diet!
------
marknutter
So the ones who gained weight were the one who said to themselves "I can have
this extra donut, I'm working out now". Fascinating stuff.
------
moonka
>While this study didn’t track the women’s eating and movement habits away
from the lab, it is likely that those who gained weight began eating more and
moving less when they weren’t on the treadmills, “probably without meaning
to,” Dr. Gaesser said.
Without knowing the whole picture, it seems hard to draw any sort of
meaningful conclusion. Weight loss is almost entirely diet-based.
~~~
tomhenderson
People often overeat when they start exercising, either because they're hungry
from the exercise, or because they feel can indulge a bit as a reward.
My view is that most people should ignore exercise and fix their diet first,
only easing in to an exercise routine slowly once they start to see weight
loss results.
~~~
moonka
>My view is that most people should ignore exercise and fix their diet first,
only easing in to an exercise routine slowly once they start to see weight
loss results.
Agreed. In the last few months, I've lost about 20 pounds via diet alone. I'm
starting to incorporate exercise now, and it's a lot easier to keep going day
after day since I can move easier, so I don't get discouraged as easily.
------
dnautics
this is what I would have predicted from the description of the experimental
setup. My understanding of human metabolism (which could be flawed, I'm a
biochem PhD, not a nutrition PhD) For most people, regular aerobic exercise
results in the body more regularly entering starvation mode and saving energy
= storing fat. However, I suspect there are people with that signal defective,
who can run like crazy and become thin as rails. For most of the rest of
people, building muscle is a better strategy for losing weight.
~~~
meepmorp
Starvation mode in the sense that you seem to intend is a myth:
[http://examine.com/faq/how-do-i-stay-out-of-starvation-
mode....](http://examine.com/faq/how-do-i-stay-out-of-starvation-mode.html)
Probably. I'm not an expert.
------
stevebmark
Exercise controls mainly muscle composition.
Diet controls mainly fat composition.
Exercising to lose weight is a stupid idea.
Stop getting your health research from the news. Go read a book written by a
doctor.
------
thisrod
For the purpose of this study, "exercise" means "walked on treadmills ...
three times per week for 30 minutes". I'd be cautious about extrapolating the
results to more than homeopathic doses.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
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The other California: A flyover state within a state - paulpauper
http://www.ocregister.com/articles/different-748849-one-secede.html
======
classybull
Having grown up in a rural flyover state, I just need to point out the rank
hypocrisy.
The prevailing ideology there is that the government should stay out of the
way and let the market decide the best course of action. Except when the
market decides that rural areas don't bring much value in the modern,
information based economy. Then they expect the government to intervene to
save them.
No, thank you. You don't get to have your cake and eat it too.
------
litany
Nice of them to not mention any of the regulations that they claim are causing
harm. This is The Register.
~~~
Brendinooo
"San Francisco, for example, recently decided to not pump oil from land owned
by the city in Kern County"
"Chapman University forecaster James Doti notes that, in large part due to
regulation, Inland Empire housing prices have jumped 80 percent since 2009 —
almost twice the rate for Orange County."
Or did you mean chapter and verse of regulations? If so you are correct, I
didn't see anything like that.
~~~
aanm1988
> "Chapman University forecaster James Doti notes that, in large part due to
> regulation, Inland Empire housing prices have jumped 80 percent since 2009 —
> almost twice the rate for Orange County."
That's not citing regulation, that's just blaming regulation. It's exactly hte
type of behaviour the parent comment was talking about.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Robonaut Has Been Broken for Years, and Now NASA Is Bringing It Home - mcspecter
https://spectrum.ieee.org/automaton/robotics/space-robots/robonaut-has-been-broken-for-years-and-now-nasa-is-bringing-it-home
======
phaedrus
I was fortunate to get to see Robonaut in its home lab on two separate
occasions 2006 - 2008. It is/was mainly a platform for research in
teleoperation and hand-gripping. I was confused when I first saw a news item,
years ago, about it going up to the ISS, because while it was forward looking
to this purpose, it didn't seem like the prototype itself was intended for
this. I think they'd have done some things differently if they knew the
prototype itself was going to go up - probably make it smaller and lighter for
one. But do remember, when this was started was before things like the
Raspberry Pi, so a lot of components (computers, cameras, actuators) were
bigger then than they would be now.
It was interesting to see the design evolve. For instance the first-generation
Robonaut hand was based on human anatomy. One of the researchers spoke to hand
surgeons and even observed real surgeries to learn about this anatomy. So the
fingers of the first-generation hand were endoskeleton-supported. But on my
second visit I got to see parts from a version of the hand they had just (or
were just about to) put in. These were more of an exoskeleton design, like a
loop/outline of each segment of a finger. (Unlike an insect exoskeleton, these
segments were not fully enclosed; think of like a 2D loop not 3D tube.)
Apparently the second design gave more room to put sensors in the fingers
(and, I imagine, protected the sensors better). Once the glove is on the hand,
you can't tell the difference.
------
JoeAltmaier
I don't know, seems a little goofy, to make a humanoid robot. I know, it has
to operate the same equipment that humans operate etc. But humans suck at zero
gravity - there has to be a better solution for the ISS. Space spider? Zero-g-
octopod? Slithering station snake? Something.
~~~
losteric
Octopod forms are a better fit, but no doubt more complex to build and control
over telepresence...
~~~
JoeAltmaier
Oh I used to operate an Alien in AVP and did pretty well crawling on ceilings
and thru ductwork...just have to have the right operator.
------
post_break
I got to see him in 2010 before he went up. Actually got to see the prototype
with the acrylic chest. It was kind of awkward because my friend who worked at
NASA took us into the room where the engineers were all working on him and
just stared at us gawking at the robot.
------
JabavuAdams
Dem legs! So disturbing to see them bend that way. Why did this thing need to
be humanoid? Seems sub-optimal and uncanny.
------
nitrogen
Not to discount the work of roboticists, but that seems like a huge waste of
space and weight. Were there significant gains from putting a prototype into
space instead of perfecting it on the ground?
~~~
robotresearcher
If you want to learn about how to do robots in microgravity, you have to
really do it. It’s not just controls but also how lubricants behave, how dust
and crud behaves in motors, and all the little things.
I think the human form factor is not the most useful, but it’s going to be
important eventually to be able to do manipulation in orbit.
~~~
ocdtrekkie
The human(ish, see the legs) form factor is likely preferable because they had
ground controllers operating it in a telepresence design. If a human is trying
to do things a human would do if they were there, a human shape is a good one.
And many things they will manipulate were designed to be manipulated by
humans.
Since we can't beam a specialist into space when we break something, the next
best thing would be if that specialist could take over control of a humanoid
robot in space they can directly control there to intervene and help fix a
problem.
Perhaps someday when they have a problem with their humanoid robot in space, a
roboticist can take control of another humanoid robot up there to perform the
repair work.
~~~
robotresearcher
Yes, those are the arguments they used. In particular it had to be able to use
astronaut hand tools, which are designed for pressure suit gloved hands. On
the downside the form factor is rather complex.
I recall a presentation when one of the very talented engineers that built it
said (roughly) we made the robot now all you have to do (you being the robot
AI) people in the room) is make it autonomous. A 30 DOF semi-android in
microgravity? Piece of cake.... :|
------
jpm_sd
It uses CompactPCI internally? How delightfully antiquated.
~~~
moftz
You can get plenty of modern stuff to go into a MicroTCA chassis. For what is
essentially an industrial computer hooked up to motors and sensors, that kind
of base hardware is perfect for the role.
~~~
jpm_sd
The modern approach to robotics uses a high (-ish) speed serial bus - CAN 20
years ago, EtherCAT today - and a distributed network. Centralized chassis
based systems are fragile and difficult to upgrade!
------
BrandonMarc
What ever happened to SPHERES? Or, Int-Ball?
------
deepsun
Probably, it was deliberately broken by astronauts so that robots don't take
their jobs :)
~~~
JorgeGT
It was a grounding problem. It is _always_ a grounding problem.
~~~
jaclaz
>It is _always_ a grounding problem.
... or a cold solder joint, very often a cold solder joint on the ground
connection ... ;)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Don’t Break the Build: A Developer’s Guide to Care-Free Commits - DavidCShepherd
http://tasktop.com/blog/mylyn/change-set
======
MaysonL
How not to break the build: make commits transactions.
If they break the build, back them out, just like any other failing database
transaction.
(Of course, to do this, you have to have a build process that doesn't take all
day, combined with tests that will catch breaking commits.)
------
jongraehl
I like the idea, but isn't it possible to monitor files for changes by _any_
program, so that this isn't tied to Eclipse or one of finite other
environments?
~~~
moe
Well, it's called a DVCS. There you commit locally and _test_ your commit
before pushing it upstream.
I must say I'm a bit baffled to see such an elaborate (yet horrible)
workaround for a minor problem that has been solved 5 years ago.
But I guess the photo gives it away...
------
prodigal_erik
How do you know the changes you do check in actually work without the changes
you don't check in? "git stash" or "hg shelve" seem much less sketchy.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
McNugget Calculator - HeavenFox
https://heavenfox.github.io/mcnugget/
======
crazygringo
Fun fact: each nugget costs $0.06 to make (excluding overhead). [1] [2]
So even though it's $5 for 20 which seems cheap... it's still only $1.20 in
ingredients.
[1] [https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-profit-margin-on-
McDonalds...](https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-profit-margin-on-McDonalds-
Chicken-Nuggets)
[2] [https://imgur.com/gallery/CvHqp6V](https://imgur.com/gallery/CvHqp6V)
~~~
TAForObvReasons
I recall famous chef / restauranteur, possibly Gordon Ramsay, giving a bare
minimum sale price of 4x the raw ingredient price for profitability. Assuming
the $0.06 estimate, $1.20 would imply a price of at least $4.80, pretty close
to the $5.00 price
~~~
elil17
But McDonalds has much smaller overheads than other restaurants because the
food is largely prepared and the prep work that does need to be done has been
engineered to be easy
~~~
greedo
Uh no. The average franchise takes home 10% or so of sales before tax.
~~~
elil17
3-5% is the average profit margin for a restaurant. Also, the profit for the
franchise owner is not the same as the total profit. McDonalds as a
corporation is charging the franchisee licensing fees (and often rent as
well), which should also be considered part of the profit.
Source: [https://pos.toasttab.com/blog/average-restaurant-profit-
marg...](https://pos.toasttab.com/blog/average-restaurant-profit-margin)
~~~
greedo
But that profit doesn't accrue to the franchisee, who is the one paying for
equipment and labor. Franchise fees are a cost to him/her.
------
gojomo
For me the rule of thumb here in SF is: even though I may only want 10
McNuggets, if there's anyone hanging around outside who looks like they'd
appreciate some, get the extra 10 (for 2¢/each!) to give away. (It comes in 2
boxes.)
~~~
themmes
And that is exactly what they would like you to do. If you buy meat (or
anything for that matter), mind your footprint, only buy what you actually
need.
~~~
gojomo
Is 'they' McDonalds, or the people hoping for a handout outside?
Why can't I buy what somebody else needs? (The recipients seem happy to
receive the food, and though they'd probably prefer cash, I doubt they'd
prefer just 20¢.)
~~~
kgwgk
Think of the ecological footprint! Let them starve.
~~~
Griffinsauce
There are other and better ways to stop them from starving. But muh freedom.
~~~
sokoloff
Taking "giving immediate food to someone hungry and asking for food" as the
baseline, what process improvement would you suggest over the
$0.21-for-10-nuggets expenditure?
------
andreareina
I thought this would be about what quantities of nuggets you need to buy to
sum to the target number.
[http://mathworld.wolfram.com/McNuggetNumber.html](http://mathworld.wolfram.com/McNuggetNumber.html)
~~~
FabHK
Or what the Frobeniusnumber is for given box sizes (ie, the largest number of
McNuggets that you cannot buy (exactly). For the classical sizes of {6,9,20}
it's 43).
~~~
lazycouchpotato
Here's a Numberphile video on it.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNTSugyS038](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNTSugyS038)
------
rock_artist
The calculator isn't global friendly :)
Here McNuggets arrives in the following packaging: 4, 5, 9, 12, 24
~~~
bash-j
In my part of Australia it's: 3: $3 553kJ 6: $5.95 1110kJ 10: $8.30 1840kJ 20:
$13.35 3690kJ 24: $9.95 3690kJ 10:30AM - 12AM
Chicken bites (similar to popcorn chicken): 10 for $2 734kJ 10AM - 12AM
~~~
SlowRobotAhead
Are your nuggets rated in kilojoules?
~~~
joombaga
Most of the world uses kilojoules instead of calories.
~~~
SlowRobotAhead
Yea, which is weird because calorie is already metric.
------
TaylorAlexander
This makes me happy. I don’t even eat meat but it’s a charming project.
~~~
throw20102010
You're not eating meat even if you eat McNuggets /s.
~~~
jakear
You kid, but I recently found out that the Jack in the Box “2 tacos” are
actually meatless. (I think... it was hard to get a straight answer out of the
person I spoke to, but so far as I can tell they both “do not contain meat”
and “are not vegetarian”)
~~~
krackers
I think they do contain meat, just really processed [1]:
>Filling Ingredients: Beef, Chicken, Water, Textured Vegetable Protein
[1]
[http://assets.jackinthebox.com/pdf_attachment_settings/108/v...](http://assets.jackinthebox.com/pdf_attachment_settings/108/value/Ingredients_and_Allergens.pdf)
~~~
bparsons
Jack in the box is actually a subversive vegan activist organization.
~~~
dontbenebby
I don't actually mind vegan food (a lot of Thai/Chinese dishes with tofu are
very good), but meat substitutes are weak sauce IMHO. Don't try to make a
better walkman - invent the ipod. Which in this analogy is Mapo tofu:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mapo_tofu](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mapo_tofu)
------
hcrisp
I do a similar cost comparison when eating pizza by determining how much
bigger (more square area) the next size up is. If all you have is a non-
scientific calculator, the trick was to divide the square of the radius of
each pizza (since you are looking for the ratio of area, pi*r^2, and pi drops
out). For example, if comparing 16" and 12", you just evaluate 8×8 / 6×6 =
1.7x bigger. Usually cost of the 16" is much lower than 1.7 the 12" so might
as well get the larger size (and leftovers are fine).
~~~
paublyrne
It can be false economy of course because, leftovers or no leftovers, there's
a strong possibility that'll you'll just eat more food than you would have
otherwise. Food economy isn't a zero sum game.
~~~
hcrisp
I think in an economic sense I estimate the amount of utilization more pizza
will give me, and once I know how much costlier the next size will be per
square inch, only then I conclude if it's worth it or if "I'm not really
hungry enough to pay _that_ much!"
------
DubiousPusher
This is basically the knapsack problem right?
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knapsack_problem](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knapsack_problem)
~~~
maweki
No. Linear optimization.
Edit: Sorry. It's linear optimization with integers and therefore in the same
complexity class as any other np complete problem.
~~~
maweki
For anybody reading this: IN THEORY
In practice the nugget per package gets cheaper as the package size increases
and therefore a greedy algorithm is very useful and probably linear in the
number of package types.
------
octocode
Wow, I wish 40 nuggets cost 10 bucks here. It's $25 CAD ($18.56 USD)
~~~
LeSaucy
In Canada that’s only possible at Burger King.
------
tobiasbischoff
Im upset. Can't use this in Germany. We don't have 4pcs. And 10pcs is a 9pcs
over here.
------
RyanAF7
Will use this calculator should McDonald's ever switch back to the original
McNugget recipe.
~~~
hahamrfunnyguy
What's the original recipe and when did it change?
~~~
toast0
They changed from the assorted chicken parts (aka pink slime) to an all white
meat recipe (aka tastes like nothing) in the early 2000's. They've refined the
white meat recipe since then to remove chicken skin and artificial
preservatives.
I had occasion to eat at a McDonalds in India in 2010 or so, and they still
had the old recipe McNuggets and it was so much tastier.
------
calahad
"nuggests"
~~~
arcticbull
That's the first thing I saw on the site too haha.
------
nreilly
It doesn’t break much when you use the McDelivery prices in Korea: 4: 2100 6:
3600 10: 5100 20: 8200
~~~
HoochieKoo
It used to be pink slime. I guess each to their own.
------
warpech
This would be a nice test assignment for recruiting
------
Charlie_26
It's sad that a brain this bright is being wasted on a McNugget Calculator
------
ebg13
aka a calculator
------
arbol
The real question: Why are you eating at McDonalds?
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Dear Startup: I'm not going to create an account to send you my resume - rhizome
The last thing I'm going to do is create an account at some 3rd party HR/JobAd site just because you're too lazy to handle the few resumes you're likely to get for a $high_demand_position.<p>Some of your companies sound interesting at face-value, but the fact that you've succumbed (I'm assuming) to the sales pitch of Captain Recruiter, JobVite, or whatever parasite service tells me you don't have a very good understanding of friction, and therefore by your use of these sites I assume your company is not viable at the least, and at most the interview process would be similarly cookie-cutter. Good luck.
======
doug1001
My experience (as an employer/customer) with this outfit (jobvite) was like
time travel back to 1998 or so--not retro in a good way though. First, the
custom "candidate reports" delivered to us were often poorly parsed versions
of the actual candidate CVs. Second, the have no interest in aggregating
information from community resources (linkedin, StackOverflow, SO Careers,
etc.) nor even in allowing a candidate to include their accounts on those
Sites. And finally, because the candidate contacts the company via jobvite,
when the interested employer replies via email, it's likely to get flagged as
spam or ignored because there is no email in the candidate's outbox with this
email domain (this seemed to happen about 25% of the time to us).
------
canadiancreed
As someone thats' just finished going through a job search, one of the biggest
turnoffs that I found was companies that made you jump through hoops to even
get to the interview stage. Whether it was dealing with recruiters (who with
few exceptions were not worth the time to talk too), annoying applicant sites
like jobvite or telos (my personal fav...not), or having to give your resume
through their homerolled system that never parsed your resume right and you
had to bring it with you anyways to the interview, it does nothing but sour
people on your company. Doubly so for folks that are looking to get in on a
startup.
A startup should be hiring themselves, they should be meeting with potential
applicants themselves, and they should realize that people that are looking at
startups are usually doing so because they DON'T want the trappings that the
megacorps have. Throwing up barriers right at the offsets will scare the A and
B level talent away to your competitors, and all you'll find is the C level
talent, and the megacorps leavings.
------
mirsadm
Personally when applying for a start-up I would never go through recruiters. I
don't want to go through that process. I rather meet with the company in
person over coffee and show them the work I've done and discuss things like
that. If it is an early stage start-up then I want to work there because I
like what the company is doing and want to be part of it. If it can't happen
on a personal level without going through millions of hoops then its already a
very bad sign.
~~~
canadiancreed
I'd go one step further and say that if a startup can't be bothered to be
personal in their dealings with their potential employees, is it really a
company that you even want to bother applying too? In my latest search there
were jobs that looked great, but since they were with recruiters I was either
leery or didnt' bother at all. Too many headaches and hoops to jump through,
and in the area I'm in right now it's a buyers market for talent
------
anamax
I've recently run into a couple of:
Them (first contact): "We're really interested in talking with you."
Me: "Okay, tell me more."
Them: {20 questions}
~~~
rhizome
I have a standard reply in those situations where I come clean and say, "in
order to weed out mindless recruiters, could you tell me a little bit about
the position?" Legit recruiters, especially in our lines of work here on HN,
will always have a job description and typically a company name (ask twice if
they don't give you the latter). Resume-collecting recruiters typically don't
reply to that email.
~~~
anamax
I was unclear. I asked about the position.
I'm used to either no response or a couple of job descriptions, as you
suggest.
They replied, but with 20 questions. This is new (to me).
~~~
rhizome
Did they tell you what company it was? That's the clue that you're dealing
with someone legit, but it sounds like they reacted by trying to snow you
under?
~~~
anamax
> Did they tell you what company it was?
Yes. In fact, both appear to be internal recruiters. (Their e-mail addresses
are at the company in question.)
------
rhizome
As if on cue, a sponsored Tweet:
<https://twitter.com/#!/Jobvite/status/195248446020661248>
------
0xDECAFFEE
Just saw a blip for a recruiter's startup "job fair" where the applicants have
to go through a pre-screening to be allowed in. Yea, I'm going to take my time
to subject myself to recruiter BS so I can possibly be offered some equity and
a low ball salary. Why? Why would anyone, who knows what they are doing and
are truly skilled, subject themselves to a recruiters process like this. You
want rockstars you better be a rockstar yourself. Brogrammer startup job fairs
are not going to cut it.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid - mixmastamyk
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del,_Escher,_Bach
======
xtraclass
One of the best books ever!
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Show HN: Nexmo Developer – We built a docs site and open-sourced the tooling - adambutler
https://www.nexmo.com/blog/2017/07/25/introducing-nexmo-developer-dr/
======
adambutler
Other links:
Site: [https://developer.nexmo.com](https://developer.nexmo.com) GitHub:
[https://github.com/nexmo/nexmo-developer](https://github.com/nexmo/nexmo-
developer)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
AI is going to kill seat-based SaaS models - kfarzaneh
http://venturebeat.com/2017/03/18/ai-is-going-to-kill-seat-based-saas-models/
======
valuearb
No. Just because per seat pricing might create the incentive to limit offering
productivity enhancements, doesn't mean that incentive won't be dwarfed by
competitive pressures.
And it doesn't matter what you want, customers want to pay in ways that are
easy, predictable and make sense to them. Devs can do the math to predict
compute costs with Amazon. But hitting a typical SaaS customer with a surprise
large AI Calc bill will be a huge problem.
Per seat pricing tracks to value for most customers, is predictable and will
likely continue to be the preference for a very long while.
~~~
MaulingMonkey
Agreed on all points.
There are already plenty of per-seat licensing models that explicitly
acknowledge bots - e.g. Perforce's "service users" (used for e.g. the heavy
hitting CI build accounts that have more activity than dozens of engineers
combined) which don't even count against seat limits. Per seat is just a way
to charge roughly by organization size, which has some semi-linear correlation
to SaaS usage, even if automation / "AI" adds a potentially large productivity
or load multiplier.
Even if "AI" somehow breaks that assumption at some point, where one engineer
can reasonably use 'infinite' resources, it's pretty easy to couch usage based
pricing in the veneer of seat based pricing. Just apply rate limits per user -
say, high enough to handle your 95th percentile customers - and offer "virtual
seats" for the power users who want to increase their API rates, or require a
higher tier "enterprise" accounts - just as existing SaaSes already do,
complete with public documentation of some of their API limits right on the
pricing page no less.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Amazon fires: Record number burning in Brazil rainforest - andreiursan
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-49415973
======
jeanlucas
Gonna give my 2 cents, bear in mind I'm in Brazil and am involved in projects
related to the Amazon forest.
My problem with all this are some things:
* One problem I have is that during the last years Amazon savagery was going uncontrollable, no one cared, especially BBC, now that a president was elected that is not aligned with their point of view was elected, this became a front news issue.
* Assuming this is all true (and bear in mind, it isn't always) that fire was in Brazil's frontier, not just Brazil, the article forgot that part.
* One more point is: the supposed German and Norway money to "help maintain the forest", if you need to learn anything from investigative journalism, is to follow the money. Norway had a mining operation in the middle of Amazon[0] - the thing they are supposed to prevent! Funny enough, that mining rig polluted all the area [1] and they settled down not paying the locals, that are still protesting. I really wonder if that Amazon fund was really to support and protect our forest or to pay off NGOs to ignore what they were doing over there. Bonus: this all happened in the previous "good" government administration.
I really worry about the forest and was in Sao Paulo when that happened two
days ago, but I really suspect the politics around it.
[0] - [http://theconversation.com/the-world-protests-as-amazon-
fore...](http://theconversation.com/the-world-protests-as-amazon-forests-are-
opened-to-mining-83034)
[1] - [https://www.tnp.no/norway/panorama/toxic-waste-from-
norwegia...](https://www.tnp.no/norway/panorama/toxic-waste-from-norwegian-
hydro-amazon-water-brazil)
~~~
gtirloni
That's the problem right now in Brazil. Any criticism to the current
administration is because "ideology", like that's a valid argument to
invalidate anything that's said. The current president thinks there are
communists in every corner.
The fires are happening, any satellite can confirm that. Easily. The the head
of the public institution doing very scientific work to track that got fired
because he wasn't a true "Brazilian" since he was obviously trying to hurt his
country by reporting the truth.
It seems we have imported the dualism in politics from the US/Argentina and
everything now now is "us" vs "them". It's impossible to have a reasonable
discussion about public policies without people resorting to hidden motives
and conspiracy theories.
I've followed the international news about the Amazon fires and there's very
little wrong facts in them. But unfortunately they don't help our current
extreme right administration so.
I hope reasonable minds prevail in the next election and we're able to elect
an administration that is rational. Unfortunately, due to the increasing
duopoly in politics, we'll probably have a extreme left president. It's all
very sad.
~~~
jeanlucas
gtirloni, I agree that tying to administration is ridiculous and avoid real
criticism. This just bugs me because the rate of deforestation was going up
really high in the previous one (that was impeached, but not because of that).
The fires are happening, I agree, but I really disagree that there are little
wrong facts, mostly people hide important stuff, like the Norway mining I rig,
and I really bet you didn't know about that one, it barely made the news. Only
the convenient news come up.
It's impossible to say about only reasonable minds when the arguments are so
skewed towards politics and extreme actions.
~~~
PauloManrique
That's because the Norway mining thing is totally irrelevant to the big
picture?
------
nikivi
The sad part of reading news like this is the feeling of paralysis and
helplessness of watching it all unfold.
There are no actionable calls to action or advice laid out in articles like
these.
Awareness is good though. Perhaps it inspires people to work directly on
solving nature's greatest problems. A friend of mine made a GitHub curated
list about tech companies working in this space.
[https://github.com/nglgzz/awesome-clean-
tech](https://github.com/nglgzz/awesome-clean-tech)
~~~
pjc50
Individual action is very limited. Collective action is the only way forwards,
which means you're going to have to get political, and convince other people
that it's real, important, and deserving of action.
~~~
chrdlu
Money talks, if companies can make billions of dollars from individual $10-20
subscriptions, I don't see why we can't do it for climate
change/deforestation!
I personally use Project Wren
([https://projectwren.com/](https://projectwren.com/)) to offset my own
footprint and a bit more!
------
vfc1
Brasil needs to be heavily sanctioned by the international community, I'm
talking Cuba-level stuff if we want to even have a chance at stopping the rise
above 2 degrees, we only have 12 years which means that it's already probably
too late.
More worrying is the rise of populism in the world supported by fake news,
ignorance and social media that led to this.
How did someone as ignorant as Bolsonaro ever managed to get elected as
president of a democratic country, and get away with some of the things he
says?
~~~
Hitton
I consider such approach rather oppressive and reeking of colonialism
attitudes. It sounds like: "Fuck Brasil, let's ban them from using their
natural resources, while we happily keep using ours". There is literally no
reason why other countries countries couldn't plant more forests to enhance
their carbon depositions, now Brasil thanks to their rainforests does more of
biosequestration than any other country on Earth and don't they dare doing
less and not pick other nations' slack...
Also 12 years is just another arbitrary alarmist number, similarly to recently
heard 18 months [1]. But in reality there is no upcoming end of the world [2].
[1]: [https://www.bbc.com/news/science-
environment-48964736](https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-48964736)
[2]: [https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/no-
climate...](https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/no-climate-
change-will-not-end-the-world-in-12-years/)
~~~
sprafa
IT is colonialist, patronizing, and evil. The US and the "developed" world
have set course for self annihilation and the US in particular has done
nothing to solve its own path by leaving the Paris Agreement. But hey let's
blame Brasil, easier than solving our own problems.
~~~
piva00
Why are you so defensive about all of this?
~~~
sprafa
So defensive? It’s the second time news like this have shown up and it’s the
second time people have suggested sanctions. Usually Americans living under a
regime that is one of the few countries to pull out of the Paris Agreement.
You don’t see a problem with that? Why is Brasil having to shoulder the blame
for CO2 mostly produced elsewhere?
There’s a lot that can be done but really it’s the usual thing for me - if
you’re going to criticise someone clean up your own house first.
~~~
piva00
I'm a Brazilian, living in Sweden and I'm going to push and get in touch with
people I know who have connections or work at Riksdagen (the Swedish
parliament) to start any kind of discussion on sanctioning the beef and mining
industry in Brazil.
It's possible to criticise something even if you live in a glasshouse, even
more when what's being done down there is senseless for the future of the
whole country, like I mentioned on another comment: this is utterly myopic and
stupid, extract and destroy now to have something for 5 years or do the proper
thing and invest in educating society taking 1-2 generations (so about 20-30
years) and reap the benefits for the next centuries.
~~~
sprafa
I am also Brazilian but yeah I’m not saying any of this is right. I just don’t
get the sanctions idea being so popular around here.
------
isostatic
How about the rest of the world buy the rainforest and put it in a trust? It
could then be dealt with like Antarctica - an area that isn't a country.
Same applies with say the DRC and other rainforest areas.
------
newsgremlin
If we truly care about nature then Brazil should be made one of the most
politically and economically stable countries in the world by the powers of
the world.
If that seems like too much effort to give up our own resources to protect the
environment then leading world powers should re-evaluate whether its in
humanities best interest to have few stable places of living that don't come
at the cost of the environment to deal with poverty and suffering.
If you or your country is not stable, the last thing you will be concerned
about is the environmental impact on the world.
~~~
PauloManrique
Your point implies that we need to deflorestate in order to be economically
stable. No, our economy is not bad because of the environment, it's bad
because of bad decisions of politicians of the past.
~~~
newsgremlin
Think you misunderstood my point, I'm saying that deforestation is a result of
a economic woes. If the economy was in better shape we would be seeing less
deforestation.
The politicians make decisions against the environment because it's how they
gain political points, being seen as the fiscally conservative leader is
always a winner in uncertain times.
~~~
PauloManrique
Not in our case. Our current president is a climate change denial, in favor of
reducing protected areas, he's cutting funding to inspections and so on.
------
AlexDragusin
It took me a few good seconds to realize that the title is not about Amazon
burning cash or something, shows how entrenched in our lives Amazon (the
company) is.
~~~
bromuro
In *your life. I would indeed make myself few questions :)
------
hjrnunes
If environmental disasters are enough pretext for questioning sovereignty,
shall we compile a list, together with the territory to be subtracted? I
suggest with start with North America. I'll go first:
\- Deepwater Horizon platform; Gulf of Mexico, 2010.
~~~
jeanlucas
This is downvoted, but it is a fair point, that is being used as politics
weapon. The Amazon forest was savaged before, but the previous administration
was seen as "good".
And more than that, those supposed good funds from Germany and Norway that
were basically a form of bribe for the previous administration look to the
other side on the mining atrocities these countries did in the forest.
------
higherkinded
For some reason I've thought about the other Amazon. Even São Paulo didn't
help the title to ring a bell.
------
screye
This hits at one ideological conundrum that I have been grappling with for a
while.
All major developed nations did so on the back of dirty energy, exploiting
resources and with huge climate change implications.
Now that the smaller developing nations are finally capable of doing so
themselves, they are being discouraged by the same developed powers. The
developed powers did the same, but got away with it because there was no
oversight. I don't see why these underdeveloped nations are now being expected
to take the moral high ground.
We wouldn't need the Amazon as much, if we weren't pumping as many pollutants
into our air and water supplies.
Plenty of species went extinct when the now developed powers expanded with
reckless abandon. Now that Brazil is doing the same, the outrage seems
hypocritical.
Some may say that the Amazon is special and not a resource that Brazil can
singularly exploit, when it has global implications. But, the same has been
true of fossil rich nations that have pumped cheap gas into the market
indiscriminately, while they all individually became billionaires.
This whole argument extended to new developing economies like India and
Central Africa at large.
Just to be clear I am not advocating for the deforestation of the Amazon. It
can be seen as a right wing talking point, but I myself am completely at my
wits end and do not have a retort to the argument.
------
MaximumYComb
Is anyone surprised? It's easy to be upset over this but most readers here
live relatively privileged lives. The poor farmer lighting a fire is doing his
best to improve his life by clearing more land.
I don't know to improve the situation but I feel like we also need to have
empathy and understanding.
~~~
emblaegh
I can be proven wrong, but I don't think it's poor farmers who are responsible
for the deforestation of the Amazon. It's mostly big latifund owners with lots
of lobbying power.
~~~
jeanlucas
Gonna scream that one here: mining, look at norwegian and international
companies mining in the middle of the forest. Plus previous administrations
actions, like a giant power plant that will divert one of the biggest rivers
over there.
~~~
V3ritas1337
mining only equates for roughly 10% of the deforestation of the amazon
rainforest, we should be looking at the meat industry, it equates for roughly
75% - 80% of deforestation.
------
honestoHeminway
How much would one need to pay per square kilometer rainforrest for keeping it
to be competitive against steak/soy-farming?
------
turrini
Please stop.
It is not the fault of the current government. Burning happens every year in
the Amazon, and everywhere across the world.
The leftist party is using international media to alarm against the current
government.
There are also investigations being carried out on these burnings, as there
are indications that several are criminals and were executed by NGOs in this
region. Those are the same who have lost benefits (money) in recent weeks.
Yes, it is the responsibility of the current government to intervene, hold
responsible and take steps to prevent this from occurring or diminishing its
impact in the future. It is worth remembering that this government is only 8
months old.
People behave as if previous governments were constantly extinguishing fire
and that in the last 16 days, "by the current government", the water has run
out and started to set fire to everything.
The problem of Amazonian care comes from decades of neglect, and this
government is only 8 months old. There should be no external intervention.
Other countries (first world or not, there are no excuses) should reforest as
much as they can for the global good and not just point the finger at this
region (important, of course).
NGOs in Brazil are almost totally corrupt, they are cancer here in Brazil. As
well as much of politics.
Many forget or do not know that former President Lula [1] assumed in
interviews that his government lied about important statistical data, such as
hunger and misery in Brazil to impact abroad and then present the true numbers
as the savior of this country. Pure manipulation.
The current government is revisiting all research departments through a
thorough process to check all numbers that were presented as true and many are
questionable.
[1]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5bOtqmvJHE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5bOtqmvJHE)
(in Portuguese only, sorry)
~~~
doliveira
Just so you know guys, this sounds like a typical Bolsonaro voter. Even
implying that the multi-hundred-percent increase in deforestation just this
year was fabricated by the communist scientists and that Lula somehow has
anything to do with it. Or that it's good that Bolsonaro is "reorganizing" the
research departments to get rid of the commies that dare to present evidence
against his corrupt children or about his family's relationships with Rio
militias. Or just plain firing scientists and managers from organs like INPE
(National Institute of Space Research) and IBAMA (Brazilian Institute of the
Environment and Renewable Natural Resources) that dared to speak out against
his anti-environment speech, policies or even environmental infractions.
~~~
doliveira
BTW, the multi-hundred-percent increase was referring to a single month
compared to the previous year.
~~~
turrini
As I said, these burns are being investigated because they look criminal, made
on purpose.
You can see in _EVERY_ NASA report/study about Amazon's deforestation, this
has been going on for decades[1] and the alarm from the international media
has always been mediocre.
And no, I'm not a Bolsonaro voter.
[1] [https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/landsat/news/40th-
top10-a...](https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/landsat/news/40th-
top10-amazon.html)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Show HN: CueYouTube.com: create and share YouTube playlists without logging in - dools
http://www.cueyoutube.com/
======
dools
This has actually been around for a few years, but we fixed up a bunch of
feature requests from uservoice so I think it warrants a ride on the new Show
HN wave ;)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Upgrading my HP 2910al to a 10GbE Fiber Optic Internet Connection - stuinzuri
http://geekomatic.ch/2011/04/11/1302522420000.html
======
veyron
> Fiber optic transceivers are crazy expensive--easily equally or more pricy
> than CPUs by both size and weight. I'm glad we don't need a long run!
Presuming you are connecting devices within the same rack, you can easily get
a 10gbe card and relevant twinax cable for less than 500 bucks -- these cables
have dedicated SFP+ modules on each end, eliminating the need for
transceivers.
The switches, on the other hand, will cost you a pretty penny
~~~
wmf
Unfortunately, twinax will not reach the meet-me room in your colo.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: How much time do you spend coding outside of work per day? - sisterofadawn
Just curious, got the developer report from CodinGame (https://www.codingame.com/work/codingame-developer-survey-2020/#page9) and it says 1 in 3 developers code for more than an hour a day outside of work (or school).<p>It seems a lot to me, even when taking the inherent bias of their audience into account (CodinGame is a platform of coding puzzles/games for developers and a recruiting tool for companies)
======
zekehernandez
If I have a project I'm working on, like a website for myself or someone else,
I'll spend like 2-5 hours a week; otherwise, almost nothing outside of work.
I don't feel compelled to code outside of work just for the sake of coding,
it's only if I want to make something.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Tell HN: Zirtual just announced it is ceasing all operations - jedwhite
Just received this email:<p>Dear Zirtual Clients,<p>It is with an incredibly heavy heart that I have to send this message. As of today, August 10th 2015, Zirtual is pausing all operations.<p>Due to a combination of market circumstances and financial constraints we must re-organize our current structure if we are to successfully serve you in the future.<p>I realize this news comes incredibly fast and I am truly sorry for the Z-shaped hole this will leave in your lives and business.<p>We know that many of you care deeply about your Zirtual Assistants. If you would like to connect with your assistant independently, please reach out to: [email protected].<p>Thank you from the very bottom of my heart for the support you’ve shown Zirtual and my deepest apologies for the speed and inconvenience of this announcement. We will communicate further updates as soon as we have them.<p>Best,<p>Maren, Erik, Collin + the Zirtual Team<p>Maren Kate Donovan
======
bamazizi
This can't be real!
She was just on 'This Week in Startups' (TWIST) and Jason was drooling at
Zirtual's $11m run rate after only couple of years. (Jason Calacanis is an
investor)
Was she lying throughout the interview? Is Silicon Valley built on
engineered/bought hype and no real substance?
source: [https://youtu.be/Tq_dMxsWe48](https://youtu.be/Tq_dMxsWe48)
~~~
7Figures2Commas
This is expected in markets like the one we're in today. Too much money is
chasing too few opportunities. Angel investors are everywhere, and party
rounds of a dozen-plus investors are common. In many early-stage financings,
particularly the party rounds, a lack of reasonable due diligence is the rule,
not the exception.
This creates an environment in which you have a good number of ambitious
people becoming founders and raising capital even though they don't have the
experience or ability to run a real business.
Markets like the one we're in can be frustrating because there's so much chaff
you have to filter through, but that doesn't mean the _entire_ market is based
on engineered hype.
------
greenyoda
See also the earlier discussion here:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10033517](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10033517)
------
err4nt
I was going to sign up this week! What strange timing :(
------
tim333
Bit pricy I guess compared to offshore?
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: Is there a Google for searching website source code? - tootahe45
If a website was referencing a JS file at https://evil.com/keylog.js, how could I see how many other sites this is embedded in?
======
r721
Here: [https://publicwww.com/](https://publicwww.com/)
------
brainomite
I hate to say it but Bing (ew) actually added this support recently.
[https://blogs.bing.com/search-quality-
insights/2018-07/Intel...](https://blogs.bing.com/search-quality-
insights/2018-07/Intelligent-search-Coding-answers-at-your-fingertips)
------
dbielik
[https://nerdydata.com](https://nerdydata.com)
------
ed
Builtwith may be helpful
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
‘The Far Side’ Is Back, Sort Of - cstuder
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/17/arts/far-side-gary-larson.html
======
JoblessWonder
It is impossible to overstate how much laughter and joy 'The Far Side' brought
me growing up. Between 'The Far Side' and 'Calvin and Hobbes' I was set.
~~~
m463
"Blah blah blah Ginger blah blah"
"Oh wait! wait! Looks like we're coming into some more Turbulence!"
"Everything's squared away, yessir, squaaaaaaared away."
~~~
teddyh
“The dam bursts”
------
dgenzale
OK, for even more awesome, check out the site's console output when you try to
right click an image (better with fixed-width of course):
. .
,:'` `':,
":._.-""-._.:"
=== __ ===
.| |.
:` | | `:
:` | | xx:
: ` : o o : xxxx:
.` '----' `xxxx`.
: ` `` `:
: ` :' ': `:
: ` :x. `: `:
.` .xxx`. `.
: : xxx: :
.` .xxx` `. `.
: : ` : :
: : : :
: : : :
: : .xxx: :
vv .xxxxxxxvv
: .xxxxxxxxx:
o\\-`o`: .xxxxxxxxx:` ` xxxxxxxxxx`
~~~
Vogtinator
Mainly to prevent opening the context menu - probably to make copying images
harder...
~~~
generalpass
> Mainly to prevent opening the context menu - probably to make copying images
> harder...
I feel like Gary Larson is still new to the Internet. I mean, the prevalence
of Twitter screenshots _alone_ should demonstrate the futility of such
efforts. Though it may be that he just doesn't want to tell with supporting
the image link traffic.
However, given that uMatrix reports blocking >5K, my suspicion is that he or
whoever he has doing his site may not be all that clever. (I haven't any plans
to dig into why uMatrix is reporting so much.)
~~~
huebomont
The idea that Gary Larson made any decision about context menus or tracking on
this site is hilarious. He was definitely not involved in that way.
------
sprice
A Far Side comic led to the naming of a part of the Stegosaurus' tail.
"Now this end is called the thagomizer... after the late Thag Simmons"
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thagomizer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thagomizer)
~~~
davidw
Yeah I think that's somehow cooler than the species. There are a lot of
obscure species that get named for someone, but being the guy who named
something that every kid is familiar with... that's pretty cool! (And I came
here to post about that too).
~~~
dmix
This one is a goodie
[https://shoeuntied.files.wordpress.com/2018/05/fs16.jpg](https://shoeuntied.files.wordpress.com/2018/05/fs16.jpg)
------
jacquesm
Never enough :) My favorite:
[https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d7/75/31/d77531ddeaf83c8375c2...](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d7/75/31/d77531ddeaf83c8375c2f70a972189b3.jpg)
~~~
pjmorris
My favorite is 'old dog new trick.' I won't post a link myself because I once
spent a long email thread with Larson's secretary trying, and failing, to get
permission to use the cartoon in a slide deck. He has described that he thinks
of the cartoons as his children and that, like children, he wants to know
where they are. I respect that, though I wish he felt differently.
~~~
paulddraper
If used for educational purposes, it would probably fall under fair use.
~~~
lilyball
Being legally okay isn't the same thing as being right.
For a similar reason, Weird Al Yankovic always gets permission before
publishing his parodies even though he doesn't have to.
~~~
27182818284
For what it is worth, Yankovick has done the opposite of your comment at least
once.
Yankovic specifically got _legal_ permission for his song Amish Paradise but
not what was arguably "right" meaning permission _from the artist_ Coolio who
said no. Yankovic did it anyway.
Years later, they are reportedly "cool" now according to Yankovic:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1h7afc/i_am_weird_al_...](https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1h7afc/i_am_weird_al_yankovic_ask_me_anything/carj75a/)
~~~
teach
That's pretty misrepresentative of the events.
Yankovic _thought_ he had gotten permission and when he later found out Coolio
hadn't been consulted he was mortified.
~~~
27182818284
From what I've read he _knew_ he had permission from the record label, and
_knew_ he didn't have Coolio's blessing. I wasn't there, but it seems unlikely
that if he immediately had turned around like "wow I didn't know" the so-
called beef wouldn't have lasted years until they made nice.
From: [https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/bp/coolio-did-not-
want-w...](https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/bp/coolio-did-not-want-weird-
al-spoof-gangsta-205954306.html)
>Coolio said when Weird Al initially requested to remake the song, he said,
"No," but later realized that, due to the fair use copyright laws, he could
not stop the production.
>Coolio later reconsidered Weird Al's proposal. "I sat down, and I really
thought it out," he told the students at IPR. "I was like, 'Wait a minute.' I
was like, 'Coolio, who the f—k do you think you are? He did Michael Jackson.
Michael Jackson didn't get mad.'"
~~~
lilyball
You're citing an interview with Coolio, which doesn't reflect Weird Al's
experience. I don't have a citation on hand, but the story I've always read is
Weird Al asked Coolio's label, got a "yes" back, and believed that the label
had asked Coolio. Ever since then he made sure to get the answer directly from
the artist in question.
------
cwp
How is this not called "The Far Site"?
~~~
dmix
Not everyone can be as clever as your Mr. cwb
~~~
dsr_
You mean qmo, xiwp.
------
neonate
[http://archive.md/1l8Ww](http://archive.md/1l8Ww)
------
madrox
When my dad passed away, I inherited all his old The Far Side books. Seeing
this article made me pull them out, and they've aged surprisingly well.
That said, comics have changed a lot since those books were published, and
part of me wonders if The Far Side would've succeeded today.
Considering most active internet-dwellers these days have no memory of The Far
Side, I guess we'll find out.
------
ncmncm
I remember the first one I ever saw. It was a bunch of porcupines standing
around looking at a mattress with a porcupine lying on it. I didn't see
another for months. I am embarrassed at how long it took me to get it, but it
stuck with me until I did. I haven't seen it in any of the books.
The article should have mentioned the Thagomizer ("after the late Thag
Simmons"). Hmm, another obscure mattress reference I never noticed before this
moment, 35 years later...
------
sp332
I'm not sure if this is the "open letter" referred to, but it's what Larson
sent to at least a couple of people with cease & desist orders.
[https://www.comicmix.com/2008/03/07/gary-larson-and-our-
far-...](https://www.comicmix.com/2008/03/07/gary-larson-and-our-far-side-
cease-and-desist/)
------
generalpass
[https://www.thefarside.com/](https://www.thefarside.com/)
------
ergothus
You know how people always say "back in my day, things were better!" (in
between saying "you kids don't know how easy you have it")? For me, while
there are plenty of differences between now and when I grew up, and these
differences are sometimes good and sometimes bad, there are only two things
I've been solid on.
The Far Side, and Calvin and Hobbes.
The bad part is that we aren't getting more. The good part is that we still
have access to them.
~~~
cgh
I'd add Bloom County in there too. The '80s had great syndicated comics.
~~~
sp332
A couple years ago, Berkeley Breathed also decided that making comics was
pretty enjoyable if he didn't have to meet deadlines. He's been posting new
strips intermittently on Facebook.
[https://facebook.com/berkeleybreathed/](https://facebook.com/berkeleybreathed/)
~~~
selimthegrim
When I saw him talk at the National Book Fair in DC in 2016 shortly after he
resumed, he explicitly blamed Harvey and Bob Weinstein for the lack of a
movie.
------
eindiran
Why was this link changed? Most of the time that the moderators switch in a
link, they are functionally the same, but this is an interview rather than a
direct link to the content of the email that was sent out, hosted on the site
discussed in the email. Also, the New York Times is paywalled, which is fine
by HN policy, but its one thing when the only source of a particular article
is paywalled. Its another thing to change the link _to_ the paywalled
version...
For reference, this used to point to:
[https://www.thefarside.com/about/48/a-letter-from-gary-
larso...](https://www.thefarside.com/about/48/a-letter-from-gary-larson)
It currently points to:
[https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/17/arts/far-side-gary-
larson...](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/17/arts/far-side-gary-larson.html)
EDIT: Looking through what happened, I think the two were merged together as a
dupe, but the interview was chosen over the letter itself.
~~~
noneeeed
Also the official site appears to be struggling with all the interest, so
perhaps the mods decided to go with the working NYT.
------
cwkoss
I hope he makes a twitter account that tweets one comic a day.
------
jdofaz
anyone find a rss/atom feed on thefarside.com?
------
emmelaich
I love Larsen.
Similar but darker and weirder was
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B._Kliban](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B._Kliban)
Nice essay -
[http://www.thepaincomics.com/Kliban.pdf](http://www.thepaincomics.com/Kliban.pdf)
Just as funny to me.
Do a web search for Kliban without "cat" for a taste.
~~~
ElCapitanMarkla
Some of these are right up my alley. This one is a favourite so far
[https://i.imgur.com/xTrQtPo.png](https://i.imgur.com/xTrQtPo.png)
------
acqq
> I’ll forever be grateful to fans, who in those early days often rescued “The
> Far Side” from cancellation
I'd like to read more about the "controversies" and the complaints against his
cartoons then. It's probably instructive to see how easy people can be
offended and an author becoming a target of forces that he couldn't perceive.
------
ggm
Rotring pens were the best. I used a mechanical drawing 0.2 for a while as an
every-day. At high school the 'devo' hat end-clip hid my tiny stash..
------
zmix
My all time favorite: "How nature says: 'Do not touch!'"
Though, there are so many favorites, it's difficult not to come up with a long
list.
------
aaron695
[https://www.thefarside.com/about/48/a-letter-from-gary-
larso...](https://www.thefarside.com/about/48/a-letter-from-gary-larson)
Good to see he still doesn't get it. The Far Side really is about nostalgia
now so I kinda like that too.
Very interested to see if he will adapt to the new evolved playing field of
humour or will stick with nostalgia. Both have value. From the letter it seems
like the later.
------
Agathos
Got to tip your cap to him for selecting "Cow Tools" for the first day's front
page.
------
anjel
Spamelopes
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Show HN: MassageJoy is Exec for Massage Therapy - _lex
Hi HN,<p>The best advice to founders usually includes "Make a Painkiller, not a Vitamin" - and we took that advice to heart.<p>So we're delivering what's essentially Morphine-as-a-Service: Press a button, and get a Massage delivered to you.<p>We've painstakingly poured over every detail of the massage industry to try to modernize how people get Massage Therapy, to perfect our customer experience, and to get the best massage therapists we could find. But only so much can be done pre-launch. So we're launching our beta now.<p>Book online at http://www.massagejoyspa.com, or give us a call at 650.681.0596<p>We're in beta, so everything won't be perfect. But we're good at listening - give us a try and let us know how we can do better. You can reach me directly at [email protected] anytime.<p>-----------
Why we're doing this:<p>You book massage therapy when you're either in pain or stressed out. It's the worst time to be forced to commute, fight traffic and search for parking. Instead, just book online at http://www.massagejoyspa.com, or give us a call at 650.681.0596. Our android and iOS apps are coming soon.
======
_lex
Hey HN, we really want your support and your feedback - I'll be hanging our
here in the comments and I'll be as responsive as possible. We serve the SF
Peninsula: Palo Alto, East Palo Alto, Stanford, Atherton, Mountain View,
Portola Valley, Menlo Park, Redwood City, Los Altos & Los Altos Hills -
basically anywhere 15 miles from Stanford, CA. If you're somewhere that isn't
listed, but you're in the area, we'll still come to you.
Clickable link : <http://www.massagejoyspa.com>
------
slater
I understand why you mention it (both make you feel good), but are you sure
you want to draw lines between your service and a much-abused substance known
to be highly addictive?
~~~
_lex
We also thought about saying Aspirin-As-A-Service.
The truth is, it's a much more dangerous risk for us to die without anyone
knowing we exist.
~~~
slater
How about NOT going down the medical route entirely?
Instead, you're the first Happiness-As-A-Service (HAAS) company in the world!
~~~
_lex
That would be awesome, and it was our first idea, but it doesn't work.
It would draw direct issues - there are seedy massage providers out there
offering sexual services under the guise of "massage".
So it's very dangerous to use the words "massage" and "happy" together. You'll
start ranking on google for some very questionable queries.
------
tait
Coverage area on front page and in marketing would waste a bunch fewer
people's time.
~~~
_lex
I'll add it to the ask HN now, and to the app later today. Thanks!!!
For others who see this comment: We serve the SF Peninsula: Palo Alto, East
Palo Alto, Stanford, Atherton, Mountain View, Portola Valley, Menlo Park,
Redwood City, Los Altos & Los Altos Hills - basically anywhere 15 miles from
Stanford, CA. If you're somewhere that isn't listed, but you're in the area,
we'll still come to you.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
F# Survival Guide - free eBook - pavel
http://www.ctocorner.com/fsharp/book/
======
rasikjain
Pretty impressive. Does it also have a PDF version or its just plain HTML
version?
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Purple – Heroku UI Kit - acesubido
http://purple.herokuapp.com/
======
yRetsyM
"Purple should never be used outside of officially endorsed Heroku products or
without explicit permission."
I wonder how others feel about this, I really enjoy breaking apart existing
websites and having a guide like this is certainly something I can use for
inspiration in any of my projects - but I also wonder about the above clause
and any implications it may have on copycat behaviour.
~~~
mlitwiniuk
I doubt if they care about copycats. At first glance I thought - "WTF? Why
they publish this and do not make it Open Source". But after a while I think
it's good for few reasons: \- it can be inspiring for others - in terms of
usability, typography, etc \- it illustrates how to make good spec for your
company / employees and avoid this "i-just-saw-nice-plugin-lets-use-it"
behaviour \- at some point this illustrates company`s culture \- this shows
how "organized" and "enterprisy" they are - I do belive, that there are still
some people who judge herokus website and think, that this must be some kind
of smaller hosting company for ones pet projects
------
colinmegill
Alex Lande did something similar for WalMart
[http://walmartlabs.github.io/web-style-
guide/](http://walmartlabs.github.io/web-style-guide/) ... on the tail of
that, he built Radium. We had many conversations in between about the
shortcomings of CSS after working on such large projects.
[http://projects.formidablelabs.com/radium/](http://projects.formidablelabs.com/radium/)
------
anonfunction
GitHub has a similar "living" style guide that is open source:
[http://primercss.io/](http://primercss.io/)
------
jamest
Firebase has a similar style guide:
[https://www.firebase.com/docs/styleguide.html](https://www.firebase.com/docs/styleguide.html)
------
aikah
> Purple should never be used outside of officially endorsed Heroku products
> or without explicit permission.
then why opensource it at first place? Bootstrap became popular even though it
used some Twitter design styles. How is it a bad thing?
When you write this in the lib description,you're making sure nobody's going
to use that.
~~~
Kudos
It isn't open source to begin with.
> The Purple source code and implementation details are limited to internal
> Heroku employees.
~~~
andyfleming
So was this really intended to be shared? Did someone "leak" it per se? or did
they just want to show it off as best practice?
~~~
aaronmiler
The red box has some text that says:
> It is publicly documented in order to illustrate our design philosophy and
> process.
------
ddoolin
How do people feel about the BEM naming scheme for CSS rules? It looks like
overkill when used with a preprocessor but I haven't actually taken time to
try it yet. I also find myself absolutely turned off by the idea of a class
that mixes underscores and dashes.
------
Pephers
Even though it's not open source, it's still great for inspiration.
------
UUMMUU
This is just a Bootstrap theme. Even the column classes are the same.
~~~
91bananas
Yeah, agreed, almost all of it is verbatim bootstrap code with a few extra
classes added in for padding and some other light things.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Kiwiforgmail shares 5k+ emails via TO header - andygambles
https://twitter.com/kumokasumi/status/613210550948859904
======
andygambles
Apparently they are working on the issue. I think the horse has already
bolted.
Looks as though they sent the email in batches of around 5k with all emails in
the TO header.
Another user:
[https://twitter.com/mattgemmell/status/613242663102488577](https://twitter.com/mattgemmell/status/613242663102488577)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
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10" GoNote - The Touchscreen Android 4 Notebook - yitchelle
http://www.ergoelectronics.com/products/10inch-gonote-touchscreen-android-4-netbook-gnt10#.UDS8gKDLkXk
======
marknutter
"Within minutes of using it, GoNote turns years of web browsing on its head,
and you intuitively touch, swipe and pinch the web rather than reaching for
your mouse. GoNote’s resistive touchscreen recognises 2 finger inputs so you
can pinch to zoom into webpages and get a close up with your digital photos."
This strikes me as incredibly naive. Since when is "reaching for your mouse" a
bad thing when using a laptop? If adding touch screens to laptops was all
anybody needed to do to improve our computing experience Microsoft would have
run away with the tablet market _years_ ago.
Pinching to zoom is a pattern that makes sense on tiny mobile devices, not
large laptop screens. If I have to zoom in on a webpage to make it usable on
my laptop, it's time to increase my font sizes. Zooming into a photo perhaps
makes more sense but why not simply support the pinch gesture on the trackpad
like Apple does on it's Macbooks? Instead I need to gorilla-arm it every time
I want to zoom into a photo?
Tacking multitouch screens onto traditional laptops does not a better computer
make.
~~~
klez
My arms already hurt just seeing that thing.
I don't get this 'stretch to reach the screen and swipe'. I agree with another
user below that a gesture-enabled touchpad would be a better idea.
That said, does anybody know of any usabiltiy study concerned with this kind
of interface?
~~~
dagw
I have no data or studies, but two people at work have Asus transformers and
they use the touch screen all the time even when in laptop mode, and they
don't seem to have any problems or complaints.
~~~
gagege
I can confirm this. I have a Transformer Infinity with the keyboard and have
almost no problem going back and forth between keyboard and screen. I usually
have the tablet/laptop sitting on my desk at a comfortable distance, so that I
can keep my right thumb on the screen for scrolling. I never pinch to zoom on
my tablet/laptop. Its screen is plenty big.
~~~
GrimSqueaker
So can I, if my transformer lost it's trackpad I don't think I'd notice,
reaching for the screen is much more natural and it feels much more responsive
than a trackpad mainly because you're not manipulating an arrow in to position
before you do anything. I'm not sure I'm ready to ditch the mouse on my
desktop yet but for most day to day tasks I find the touch screen to be king.
~~~
gagege
...and if I'm really feeling lazy I use the two finger gesture on the touchpad
to scroll.
------
ck2
It's $235 which will make people pause.
Another direction is the sub-$100 new generation of dual-core android desktops
- just add any cheap 1920x1080 monitor/keyboard/mouse.
[http://www.tgdaily.com/hardware-features/65596-this-dual-
cor...](http://www.tgdaily.com/hardware-features/65596-this-dual-core-android-
mini-pc-has-a-90-price-point)
Amazing what android has done for decent, cheap computers.
I expect any HDTV over 32 inches in a couple years will have a full android
computer built in for just a $40 premium.
~~~
podperson
Remains to be see whether any of them are _decent_. Cheap certainly, but they
could be just as cheap running some random Linux build.
Don't most HDTVs these days have built in Linux-based computers? My new TV
does (it shows ads on power-on, something not advertised on the box).
------
ams6110
At the bottom...
No GPS
No embedded 3G
No G Sensor – eg tilt racing games will not work.
No access to Buy or Stream Movies via Google Play
Also does not look like the screen will fold all the way back to make the
device useable in an exclusive tablet mode.
------
underlines
It's using the out-dated RockChip RK2918 SoC. This is a SoC from Shenzhen,
China. RockChip mainly build their RKxxxx Boards for OEM tablets. AFAIK the
RK2918 has a singlecore ARM Cortex A8 CPU with a max of 1.3GHz.
The successor is the RK3066 SOC with awesome specs: ARM Cortex A8 1.6GHz Dual
Core MALI-400 Quad Core GPU 1GB RAM HDMI@1080p out, USB-OTG support, 802.11n
I have 2 unbranded tablets with the RK3066 SoC: The "McPad N90" and the
"Window/Yuandao N101"
Why they don't use the RK3066? This SoC is about 90$ for OEMs. More info at:
<http://armdevices.net/> which is an US correspondant for chinese ARM based
SoC devices...
You can even buy 1000 RK3066 powered 10" tablets with android 4 for 150$ /
pcs. This GoNote is crazy compared to this price!
------
netcan
This is just close enough to what I want to be frustrating.
I want a Android/iOS-like notebook. Don't need touch. I need a browser,
facebook, youtube, email, malware resistance & an app store with a handful of
essential apps (eg google docs, games).
A substantial percentage of laptop owners can't reliably get a word doc in an
email, edit it & email it back. They used to be able when they used Firefox
which launched doc files in openoffice which had an "email as an attachment
button." Now they use chrome which launches Word where they can't find "email
as an attachment" and it wouldn't help anyway because it would launch
thunderbird which isn't configured to use their email address.
I want a laptop for them.
~~~
cjoh
Isn't this a chromebook?
~~~
netcan
I've never seen anyone in that category (bottom 30% on the "knows how to use a
computer scale") using one.
------
protonormal
"We thought about this years ago we have done tons of user interface testing
on this and it turns out it doesn't work" Steve Jobs - Back to the Mac 2010
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=ULZmlH59yKpqY&v=ZmlH59...](http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=ULZmlH59yKpqY&v=ZmlH59yKpqY&feature=player_detailpage#t=691s)
------
austinlyons
I like the idea of a tablet/laptop hybrid with a touch screen, but I would
want the "convertible" form factor.
~~~
ljf
Check out the Asus Transformer series, or the new range from Archos - a bit
more than this though
------
cnlwsu
I have a nexus 7 and love it. I absolutely love my netbook and this seems very
similar. I dont care about GPS, G or cell connection so this seems really
great for me. A lot cheaper then the Transformer too. I guess I am alone
though as the rest of HN seems personally offended by it.
------
s_henry_paulson
Interesting, but with all that marketing, they fail to mention any advantages
of actually having a touchscreen.
~~~
zalew
because there's no advantage of a vertical touchscreen. the lcd should rotate
so you can hold it like a tablet.
~~~
ljf
There is no tilt sensor on this device, so i don't think it will.
------
baggachipz
Two things immediately strike me about this: 1: Resistive Touchscreen? Really?
2: If the touchscreen is so great, then why does the device also have a
trackpad? I would think a touchscreen should alleviate the need for a
trackpad, freeing up space for a better keyboard.
------
Kilimanjaro
Yeah, yeah, cool and all, but... why so thick???
~~~
ljf
9000mah battery? A base heavy enough to allow the device to not tip over when
you touch the screen? To be able to offer it for £150?
------
roymabookie
How much?
~~~
wrath
At the bottom of the webpage there's this link:
[http://liliputing.com/2012/08/gonote-android-4-0-netbook-
hea...](http://liliputing.com/2012/08/gonote-android-4-0-netbook-heading-to-
the-uk-for-235.html)
which suggests it will seek for $235. If that's really the price I'd buy one
today for my son.
~~~
ljf
Being released in the UK first at £150 (which is $240ish) - so they might be
higher in the US at first with import costs. A great price though, and with
HDMI would also double as a media centre for me.
~~~
unwind
If it's a UK company, I'm doubly amazed at all the editing misses on the main
landing page. And I'm not a native speaker by far.
To be constructive:
-Inch symbol missing in first sentence
- Weird switch from "to work hard" to "and then relaxing"
- Repeat of "to use" in first smaller paragraph (by the Android icon)
- "its" instead of "it's" under Power and Portability
- Weird ellipsis in the Play Store, should be "blah ..."/"... blah",
not "... blah"/"... blah"
- Missing opening parenthesis in the Ethernet port caption
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
How many surnames would it take to cover half the U.S. population? - nostrademons
http://glassbottomblog.blogspot.com/2010/02/surname-frequencies.html
======
rauljara
Why the estimate? If you follow the links on the wikipedia page to the US
census site, they have the data just sitting there. There is a big CSV file
with the 150436 most common names. They even have a field with cumulative
number of occurrences per 100,000.
Number of surnames it takes to get 50% of the US population: 2182
The 2182nd surname: JERNIGAN
~~~
klodolph
I was going to post this exact comment on the blog but it requires some kind
of draconian registration scheme. I guess the blogger doesn't really like
getting feedback.
~~~
epochwolf
It's on blogspot. You can comment with your google account or an openid.
------
huherto
When I was working in the U.S. I was surprised to see the great variety of
surnames. I looked at the directory and there were about 200 engineers in the
building. There was not a single repeated surname. It was interesting the
great variety of origins. (e.g Polish, German, Spanish, Arab, Indian, etc,
etc.) On the other hand a lot of people had the same names. (John, Mike, Dave)
Here in Latin America is different, many people share the same family names,
but we have more variety of first names.
~~~
dangoldin
Interesting point!
It would be useful to see this type of analysis done for different countries
to see the social diversity.
~~~
vkdelta
India?
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
What Will Life Be Like in the Year 2008? (Nov, 1968) - nreece
http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2008/03/24/what-will-life-be-like-in-the-year-2008/
======
pg
Basically, we got the things that depend on electronics (web, cell phones) and
not the ones that depend on other technology (flying cars, domed cities,
artificial organs).
I notice there's another way to partition that set: we got the things that
don't require too much government involvement.
We got the cheap meat-like food, but from an innovation less benevolent than
algae farms: factory-farmed meat.
Come to think of it, there turned out to be a similar workaround for the domed
city problem: everyone just moved where the weather was good.
What's weirdest about this for me is that 1968 was the year we came to
America. I remember 1968. It's kind of crazy to think there were a lot of
people walking around then thinking we'd be travelling around in flying cars.
~~~
dfranke
I'm still holding out hope for autonomous cars within a decade. Technology-
wise we're pretty much there. The hard part will be convincing the public and
government regulators to accept them.
~~~
icky
A coworker of mine who's been in the GIS industry for about as long as said
industry has existed gave that very same assessment. The real obstacles at
this point are social: people will freak out at the thought of robot trucks
driving on the same highways as they do (or stealing their trucking jobs).
I give the example of trucks on highways because that would probably come
first, as it's simpler to safely implement than passenger vehicles or city
driving.
~~~
jimbokun
"(or stealing their trucking jobs)"
This was covered in a Simpsons episode. Turns out that all the trucks already
drive themselves, but the truckers' union has prevented that information
getting out to the general public.
(Couldn't find it on youtube.)
------
martythemaniak
Sure it's funny, but just wait until the people of 2045 dig up Ray Kurzweil's
"Singularity is Near". Fourty years ago some people thought we'd have
automated cars, undersea resorts and climatized, domed cities. Today some
people think 40 years from now we'll be immortal, omniscient, omnipotent gods
that rule the universe...
~~~
phaedrus
One of my CS professors is heavy into Kurzweil. He had me read "The
Singularity is Near". I decided Kurzweil's arguments are the rhetorical
equivalent of those algebra jokes where you "prove" 1=2 but it goes through a
step that hides a divide by zero. Similarly, "The Singularity is Near" uses
steps that seem logical to come to a ridiculous conclusion.
------
lg
I think the four-hour workday is an interesting idea. I'm still in school but
I worked at a real estate development office for a summer, and most of those
jobs could've been done in four hours a day if people didn't get away with
being so lazy. I bet a lot of companies could reduce the workday to four
hours, and if they're quicker to fire people for not making deadlines and
such, they'd get exactly the same productivity out of them as they do now
(plus, lots of people would probably want to work there).
~~~
ardit33
If we all had a 4hr job day, then people will be getting 2 jobs. In a consumer
markets, where how much you pay for housing determines the schooling of your
kids, or the "want" for plasma tvs, nicer cars, more shiny things will make
people work as much as they can.
The only way to enforce a 4 hrs work day will be thru law (goverment mandate
not to work more than 4hrs a day, ala EU's 37.5 normal workweek),
Or, if something like that star trek machine that can create everything (you
press a button, and food just comes out from it, or any electronics/material
need you need). Then people will be working only to teach, design new things,
entertain, as material needs will be superflous.
~~~
icky
> Then people will be working only to teach, design new things, entertain, as
> material needs will be superflous.
It's frightening to consider that IP laws would probably outlive natural
scarcity...
------
edw519
Hey, we still have 8 months to go. Maybe it'll all be true by then.
~~~
icky
They were obviously predicting the state of the art at the end of President
Gore's 2008. ;-)
------
parker
"TV-telephone shopping is common. To shop, you simply press the numbered code
of a giant shopping center. You press another combination to zero in on the
department and the merchandise in which you are interested."
\--> I find it fascinating that they just couldn't conceive of a massive
network of computers to do things like this... some things are so out to lunch
still, but things like direct deposit of funds into your bank account, I can't
believe that was so far fetched?
~~~
wallflower
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minitel>
------
socratees
People overestimate things on a shorter term, and underestimate on a longer
term.
~~~
michaelneale
That quote (or variation) if often attributed to Bill Gates? is it? or is it
older wisdom of some sort.
~~~
socratees
Yes its a quote from gates' book "The Road Ahead". He uses it in may of his
interviews. :)
------
gaborcselle
Makes me think that the things that are most likely to change are those where
entrepreneurs can most easily create products without needing to get around
government rules and regulations.
------
tim2
"The single most important item in 2008 households is the computer."
A true visionary.
------
aflag
Some people are so close to that futuristic 2008, yet most people in the world
are so far away. We really should figure out a way to fix all that.
~~~
rglullis
Why?
~~~
rms
Inequal distribution of resources
~~~
rglullis
Again: why?
_Why_ should we strive for equality?
~~~
rms
For now, we can strive for a bare minimum of clean water, 2000 calories a day
of food energy, and governments that don't stifle economic advancement. We
have plenty of resources to do this now, but it isn't happening because once
wealth and capital get concentrated in individuals or groups of people it
tends to just make them more wealth.
And the answer to the _why_ is that I believe humans have a fundamental right
to life. I have no real justification; it just feels right to me.
~~~
rglullis
Funny thing is: people who live in countries with higher levels of equality
(think Japan, Finland) are the very same countries with high suicide rates.
Not saying that correlation implies causation, just to show that perhaps this
ideal equality is not so fundamental to our overall happiness.
Also, I'd like to know _how_ we can strive for clean water and food for 7
billion people (9 billion until 2050) _while_ keeping civil liberties to
people along the process.
------
bayareaguy
Large areas of the sea being are indeed beds of "protein-rich" algae - fed by
nitrogen in industrial and agricultural waste.
[http://www.latimes.com/news/local/oceans/la-me-
ocean30jul30,...](http://www.latimes.com/news/local/oceans/la-me-
ocean30jul30,0,6670018,full.story)
------
petercooper
Most predictions of the future tend to be exaggerated, because that's what
people like to read and dream about. That does mean, however, that most of
today's predictions about the future can also be taken with a pinch of salt,
which is a little depressing.
------
dougm
"Heart disease has virtually been eliminated by drugs and diet."
Not really much excuse for the diet part of this one going so far wrong is
there.
------
johnyzee
Sort of depressing - basically everything that rings true was possible in '68.
Hell, even the internet was almost ready in '68.
------
icky
I love their faith in the National Centralized Single-Point-of-Failure Traffic
Computer. ;)
------
phaedrus
I found it ironic that they pegged the population for today (around 350
million), amongst all the other things they got wrong, and then went on to say
that only domed cities could support such a large population!
------
xirium
Colonisation of the ocean was considered enevitable in that era. It is also
covered in the 1970 book Future Shock by Alvin Toffler. However, so far, it
has been easier to improve utilisation of land.
------
noonespecial
Ha! I saw "one click" shopping in there. Eat your heart out amazon.
------
TrevorJ
I'm frikking depressed now.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Game Dev Story for Android: run your own video game company - GeneralMaximus
http://www.appbrain.com/app/game-dev-story/net.kairosoft.android.gamedev3en
======
GeneralMaximus
I'm not affiliated with the developers, but I thought HN would enjoy this. The
official website is here, if anyone is wondering:
<http://kairopark.jp/android/en/>
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
GitHub: Partial System Outage - Osiris
https://www.githubstatus.com
======
kylebarron
Apparently it's over now... "All Systems Operational"
~~~
saagarjha
The page doesn’t mention any issues at all, which is kinda misleading…
~~~
foobiekr
The worst part of SaaS is that what seems to happen with these incidents is:
* denial * acknowledgement of a limited scope * promises of transparency and openness * "we're working on it as hard as possible" * "all clear" announcement * carefully worded historical summary downplaying the event as much as possible
I am not saying that GitHub will do that but that is the common approach and
it's very frustrating and does a huge disservice to all of us.
As an engineering team, you get held to the standards of whatever SaaS the
executives you're talking to happen to know about or lightly use, and their
perception is that those services NEVER go down or have issues. The poor and
curated historical records don't help you make the case or describe what real
SaaS uptime looks like.
Amazon is especially guilty of this. They only really admit issues when
they've had a full-on, undeniable outage, and even then they curate the
summary and impact very carefully.
~~~
inferiorhuman
Here's how things went for me:
* Submit comment on GH issue
* Receive inline error
* Reload page
* Receive 500 error
* Check status page (all green)
* Wait 30 seconds
* Check status page (issues was red)
* Wait < 5 minutes
* Check status page (more things are red)
* Wait another few minutes
* Reload GH issue page, it works
* Check status page all green
The only thing indicating no errors for today is the manually updated text
summary at the bottom. The automated dashboard was, for me, extremely quick to
update.
Also, you'll need an extra line break to create a multi-line list.
------
SeriousM
Damn, I was about to post that right now :)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: How to get the first 10 users? - msencenb
After doing a small launch last night for adsreloaded.com I received a few hits but no sign-ups. You often hear on HN that you need to focus on the first 10 users... then maybe you can reach for the first 100 etc. So my question is whats the best way to get those first 10 users? (Or even better the first 10 power users).<p>In my particular case I would like to target iPhone developers first to get a few on board before I start hitting the gas on attracting regular users so its an odd situation, but any general advice on getting users is appreciated.<p>Do people find discounts, direct email, a paid search campaign, or something else entirely the most beneficial for early stage signups?
======
damoncali
Drive some initial traffic with these sites, in descending order of
effectiveness:
<http://feedmyapp.com>
<http://killerstartups.com>
<http://listio.com>
<http://saasdir.com>
<http://appuseful.com>
<http://netwebapp.com>
<http://getapp.com>
The top two are the most effective by a long shot, but the others will get you
some visits. Best of all, these tend to drive useful traffic, not garbage. All
are free, but you need to have a legit site (which you do).
~~~
msencenb
Excellent! Thanks for the links I will definitely submit my site... hopefully
other people will find them useful too :)
------
ssebro
I'm an iPhone developer, and I'm smack-dab in the center of your target market
- just like drewcrawford.I actually had the same business idea that you're
working on about 5 months ago, and decided not to pursue it. I love HN, so
I'll share the design of my system/the thinking behind it.
The problem to me is that you're asking developers to partake in (at least on
the face value) ROI negative advertising. There's actually nothing wrong with
ROI negative ads, iff they deliver network effects that make the ads ROI
positive over time or the lifetime value of a user is more than the price of
the app. We (developers) d*mn well know that natural network effects are not
strong enough to make ROI positive when Apple is taking 30% of the pie each
time. And for most iPhone Apps, the lifetime value of a user is that $.99
cents that the user pays when they buy the app. So there are very few iPhone
apps who your current system can benefit. Because there's very few apps you
can help, you're unlikely to get any traffic at all unless you're already
famous/ willing to spend a ton on ads.
The solution is to embrace social networks and understand that sometimes,
people need to pay for the stuff they're getting.Less cryptically: 1)Integrate
with facebook connect and twitter.
2)Require users to send a status message to both, effectively endorsing the
app you're giving away to their friends. This solves your network issue as
best you can (and it's how they'll be paying you).
3)Instead of holding regular sales of apps, go the groupon route, where the
sale is almost a game, and the paid app that people can get for free changes
regularly. This way you can get people to tweet/update about your app, and if
you don't get the developer say 1000 downloads, you can say that the sale
failed, and give out no refunds for the app purchases. This would entice users
to seriously get their friends to download the app through your link (or
however you track CPM). Be sure to keep track of your users (and their
referrals) email addresses, so you can update them every 4 or so days with
your new app that you're giving away.
4)Stop trying to sell your site as "earning money", and instead sell it as
"get paid apps free". The difference in the psychology of the users that
you'll attract will be HUGE.Plus nobody wants to earn 20cents per hour, but
people would spend the same time to save $1.
5)I would start this business with the top 10 apps in the appstore, and
without their permission. For this to work, you'll need about $3000, but it'll
almost guarantee your success. People already know these apps, so you're
lending their legitimacy to yourself by giving them away. I would also send a
post to techcrunch (& etc) in advance about how you're "giving the appstore
away for free" - they love apple and would love to write about you, especially
if you send them something with a sensationalist headline like I just wrote.
You could give away doodleJump, then angry birds, then .... And go down the
list. If you want more of my research/ more tips for success in this business,
email me: stephen at brownianm.com
~~~
ssebro
Oh, and by the time you're talking to devs who want to sign up, you will have
a significant list of people who download anything you put in front of them-
and that contact/email list is going to be your power-play.
------
drewcrawford
I'm an iPhone developer and I'm actively spending money advertising an
underperforming app. So I'm dead set inside your target market.
I clicked around a bit on your site, but I don't really understand how it
works for developers. Say I hand you $25. How many downloads will I get? How
much of that $25 goes in your pocket? Will consumers really take $.20 to
download a $.99 app? You compare your service to adwords and other
advertising. Is there the potential here to make more than I spend, or is this
more of a "brand awareness" thing with murky returns?
Looking at the 1.5 paragraphs for developers on your site I really don't get
it. All I need is something that says "spend $25 and get X downloads on a $.99
app". I don't see why you couldn't find room for that sentence.
~~~
msencenb
Thanks for the feedback let me right out a paragraph here and see if it
explains better:
adsReloaded is all about getting downloads. Let's say you have a 0.99 cent app
and decide you want to spend about $25 dollars on advertising. For paid apps
the price you pay users is at least the price of the app (so for a 0.99 cent
app the minimum payout to a user is 0.99).
Since your budget is about $25 dollars you take the CPD (cost per download =
0.99 in this case) and multiply it by the number of new users you want (let's
say 20). This puts your total advertising purchase at $19.80. I take 25%
(added to this number) + the price of one download (to moderate the
campaign/test to make sure the question is correct). So the total campaign
price for 20 users follows this equation: 19.80 + 4.95 (the 25% I take) + 0.99
(price of app) = $25.75
This $25.75 will get you 20 new users. Granted you will make back .70 cents
per user so really it will cost you $25.75 - 14 (your profit) = $11.75 for 20
new users.
This may be murky brand awareness to you but I think there is also a "word of
mouth" marketing piece here as well... and if you push it hard possibly even
extra downloads from moving up the app ranking lists.
Does this help explain more?
~~~
btilly
Do I have this straight? Someone who can't get users is selling a service
where he tries to get other people users. There may be a problem here.
Also the sample numbers you provide has the developer losing $11.75 out of
pocket for the honor of acquiring 20 new users. Given that the developer is
trying to make money, this doesn't seem like a great deal. (Even worse, with
the quoted figures you could buy 20 copies of the app for yourself, and walk
away $4.95 richer. All of the mindshare etc benefits the developer is hoping
for wouldn't apply in that case.)
~~~
msencenb
I didn't say that... I did relatively well (8k total for a small quotes app) I
merely stated that I always had trouble getting blog writeups.
I understand that this doesn't seem like a great deal, my question to you is
how much money are people using a service such as admob losing in order to
acquire users (Are you able to acquire 20 new users for 11.75 for an app
priced at 0.99?)? I have seem some pretty terrible conversion rates (although
feel free to point me in another direction if you feel this assumption is
misguided).
Yes there is a certain level of trust as well.. but hopefully the site will
grow and this trust will be established. I'm not out here to make a quick buck
by swindling developers.
------
michael_dorfman
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your site, but when I looked at it yesterday,
you're looking for people to download and execute iPhone apps, and get paid a
small sum for doing so, correct?
If that's the case, who is your target audience? It sure wasn't me, because my
time is more valuable than that-- you'd have to raise your rates by several
orders of magnitude before I'd be interested. Which is also why I don't spend
my time on the Mechanical Turk.
But, it seems to me that the people who do so are the kind of people you might
be interested in. So, if that's the case, why not spend some money there on
testing/market research?
In other words, pay people (via MTurk) to test out your service (which will
involve them also getting paid). In exchange for the "extra" MTurk money, you
can ask them a few questions about how well the service worked, and where they
think it should be advertised.
And, if it works well, I wouldn't be surprised if some of them become repeat
users, even outside of MTurk.
~~~
msencenb
You're understanding of the site is correct, at least from the user
perspective (non app developer).
How far would the rates need to be raised for you to be interested? The
reasoning behind my current price structure is that I often find myself
aimlessly wandering the app store and eventually download a few free apps and
usually get suckered into a paid app. My site (assuming it grows) would
provide a way to aimlessly get exposure to apps and either get paid a small
sum for trying out a free app, or get a paid app for free.
All in all though I think your idea of MTurk has merits and will certainly be
checking into this option.
~~~
shasta
So your audience is people who are willing to fill out forms and try random
crappy apps for 20 cents / hour... and who have iPhones.
Good luck!
~~~
msencenb
hahaha certainly seems a little ridiculous put this way :)
In all seriousness though .20 cents an hour is quite low. While free apps
certainly don't pay out much getting a paid app for essentially nothing is a
sweet deal (at least in my mind perhaps I'm wrong).
Developers putting their apps onto users devices and users (who might not
normally download apps) trying out new and exciting technologies while making
a little spare change doesn't seem to hurt anyone, in fact I'm banking on the
fact that people will find value in the service.
~~~
shasta
My advice: Don't even mention the $.10 minimum. Your sell is only possibly
"try paid apps for free." Paying nothing is better than paying out $.10 - it
cheapens your service.
And this would be so much better if you could avoid cash transactions in the
first place, and somehow just allow free app downloads.
~~~
msencenb
Point taken. I am currently iterating on the landing page so I'll try out a
few different variances that don't mention the .10 cents deal.
Maybe I'll even try and find some relatively cheap A/B testing software, that
would be a fantastic resource. Anyone know of any?
I'm assuming you mean "free app downloads" as in paid apps just downloaded for
free? This would be very nice... sadly I can't seem to think of a way without
a deep partnership with apple and the app store.
~~~
dennisgorelik
Google WebSite Optimizer does A/B testing and is free. You have to have
AdWords account though. I recommend you to create AdWords account anyway and
try to advertise your service that way. You would have to spend some money,
but not much, and the time you would save would probably worth it.
------
pclark
"Ask HN: Review my startup" :)
------
yurisagalov
You're getting a lot of feedback on the product... I'm going to give you some
feedback on the site itself. I'm not a designer, but there's a few things that
stood out to me when I clicked on your website.
First, there's too much text. The text is overpowering me. I forget where, but
there was an article/blog post a week or so that I read, which effectively
said:
1\. Assume your readers can't read
2\. Assume even if they can read, they won't.
This means that ideally your site should be almost self explanatory. Diagrams
> Words if you need to choose. If you can illustrate to me how it works,
you're doing way better than having me read it.
Next, your choice of color is bad. Nothing really stands out except "by trying
apps on your iPhone". That is to say:
"Earn money" doesn't stand out. Login doesn't stand out, and neither does
Register...
Next, in the "Get paid to try apps" paragraph, the color scheme isn't "crisp",
it's a bit hard to read IMO.
"Are you a developer?" Why yes I am! But holy-moly, that font is fine and i'm
not even at the fine print yet! Don't try to squeeze so much text onto your
website :)
Next thing that stood out to me, is the >> Login/Register buttons. They have
this odd white color to them on the left side and the top sides. It makes them
feel like they were poorly photoshopped, and even though it's tiny (pixel
wise), it's super noticable to me
Finally, you really have no "call to action". I arrive to your page, and I
don't know where to click next. This is mostly because your Register button
blends in with everything else. I'd probably make the registration red here to
contrast with everything else (others may disagree, but I think the color
needs to change). Forget about the login button. your battle is against people
clicking the back button when they first arrive. If they register, you've
essentially got them to buy in. They'll find where to login :) (you can put it
in the corner, or anywhere else really).
I hope this is useful, good luck! :)
edit: cleaned up my thoughts a little bit...
------
uptown
Just some aesthetic advice ... your site feels "heavy" and somewhat dated.
Try changing the content area to use a white background, and brighten up the
header and footer. The colors you use on the forum section of the site are
closer to what I'd aim for.
------
kranner
You might need to buy advertising to get your ad network going.
Two nits if I may:
1\. Instead of saying "adsreloaded.com is changing the way online advertising
works", you might try "adsreloaded.com is about to change". The former sounds
like you are trying to sound much bigger than you are at the moment. At least
it did to me.
2\. The blurb in the bottom bar is unusually designed. At first glance I
thought it was a testimonial, but I'm not sure now.
Edit: why not try advertising in the new Hacker Monthly magazine? Print
subscriptions are at 4K or so now, PDF are probably way higher and it's
reaching a lot of developers and bloggers.
~~~
msencenb
An ironic twist of fate haha
1) Agreed... I probably should try and sound like I'm 8 feet tall while still
an infant.
2) The design slants it as a testimonial... but seeing as the service just
launched I don't particularly have those yet. This will probably be changed
soon
Edit: fantastic idea... sending e-mail to inquiry about ads now :)
------
smakz
Ideally you should of had 10 customers lined up before you even started
building anything. Draw upon friends and family -- you'll need close
relationships with your few first customers to know where you went wrong and
get continuous feedback.
Direct email/direct mail/paid search are all going to get you a high bounce
rate and very few customers. Save yourself some money and network with people
who might be interested in your service.
~~~
msencenb
This seems to be part of my problem. In order to get the ball rolling I need
some iPhone app developers to buy into the service. My family network doesn't
have any developers, although I know 1 or 2 friends who might be interested. I
definitely plan to leverage my friends/family network to get users; however,
this seems to be after the stage of getting the first 10 dev customers.
------
aymeric
1\. Ask friends and family
2\. Using Google Alerts, find people speaking about stuff related to your
website and leave comments
3\. Find the most popular forums for your target users
4\. Find the most popular blogs for you target users
5\. Join directories as mentioned by @damoncali
6\. Follow what is being said in Twitter
7\. Look for LinkedIn and Facebook groups
I wrote about it yesterday on my blog:
[http://aymeric.gaurat.net/index.php/2010/tips-to-kick-
start-...](http://aymeric.gaurat.net/index.php/2010/tips-to-kick-start-the-
traffic-of-your-new-user-generated-content-website/)
------
msencenb
Thanks everyone for all of the pushback on my idea so far it has been a very
constructive day for me as I continue to iterate on my product. (Thanks HN :)
)
I am a little confused on one point though and am hoping that some iPhone
developers can give first hand accounts. What kind of returns are you guys
receiving on adMob/Quattro/whatever ads? The iPhone developers I have spoken
too have had dismal returns (<10 downloads for a 50 dollar campaign) and this
was one of the problems I was hoping to help solve with adsReloaded.
Do any of you mind sharing your campaign numbers?
------
stevederico
apperang.com pays users the price of the app plus a small incentive ~25cents
to download iPhone apps. I have used this to discover many new applications.
------
tilb
I think you should reach out to iPhone and apps bloggers.
Improving your landingpage will also lead to more signups I think. Use some
images to communicate in a visual way what adsreloaded does. The text is also
not very clear. To me it is all much more a testing environment for app
developers than a new way to advertise apps.
------
webwright
Forums and meetups. Find places where your target market congregates and show
up there. Participate in the conversation without being spammy (ideally, you
started doing this already). Ask for feedback on your product and maybe toss
in a special coupon code for members of that forum/group.
------
AlexBlom
Have you tried identifying the users elsewhere and reaching about by tweet /
e-mail?
~~~
msencenb
I haven't although I plan to do some direct e-mail later tonight. Has this
been effective for you?
------
ojbyrne
Friends and family?
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
The AI-Art Gold Rush Is Here - longdefeat
https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2019/03/ai-created-art-invades-chelsea-gallery-scene/584134/
======
Fricken
When Google dropped that first batch of Deep dream images, those were
compelling. The images bore an uncanny resemblance to things you see while
hallucinating on psychedelics, and the images make you wonder about just how
similar the processes going on inside a CNN to processes going on in our own
minds. Those deep dream images were new, they invoked a strange sense of
frisson, you had to bear witness to whatever it was.
But the images shown in this article just look like somebody was fucking
around with random filters in photoshop. It's not interesting. It doesn't
leave a lasting impression, and that's really the only metric that is
universally cross-comparable when judging art.
~~~
philipov
On the other hand,
[https://thispersondoesnotexist.com/](https://thispersondoesnotexist.com/) is
the new New and it's compelling on a whole other level. So are the GAN-
generated game sprites and other pixel art we've seen over the past several
months.
------
yes_man
The artistic value of AI generated art (to me at least) will come from the
obsolence of human creativity and the strong feeling of void associated with
the far-future idea that algorithms and processing power are starting to
surpass our species in the only remaining way that made us relevant, and
looking at the pictures in the article, we are not there yet.
I am not an art connoisseur, but as a layman those pictures do not spark any
emotion in me. They are like random noise that do not convey any context.
Whereas there are paintings that mesmerize the mind by connecting the viewer
with the painter. The day that AI art will emotionally strike people is the
day when it can deduce context from our world that is relevant to us, and the
art in it is the creation of the empty feeling inside us when we realize we
are now being emotionally moved by an algorithm, in a way only an exceptional
artist could (or surpassing talent of such artists).
I am skeptical about current machine learning methods taking AI art that far.
Perhaps ML will make for example great music by generating sequences out of
training sets, but it's hard to see it creating a new music genre people will
vibe with in the near future.
~~~
fromthestart
>and the strong feeling of void associated with the far-future idea that
algorithms and processing power are starting to surpass our species
The void is inversly proportional to the bitrate and error rate between
human/machine communication. It ceases to exist at some point following a
sufficiently data dense mind/machine merge.
------
shiven
Going through the images, I shake my head in disbelief. So much of “art” is
selling crap to the filthy rich, who have nothing better to do with their time
or money.
Maybe, I don’t “get” it. To each their own, I guess.
There is a business opportunity here, so it only makes sense that someone is
exploiting it.
~~~
afpx
I hope you don’t believe that about all art. Art is one of the pillars of Homo
Sapien behavior, and it is found pretty much anywhere human settlements are
found. I worry that many of us are becoming too distracted with life,
logistics, and “productivity” to take time out to experience the things that
make us human. Maybe that’s why art has become associated with the rich -
maybe they’re the only ones who have time to enjoy it.
~~~
Hoasi
> I worry that many of us are becoming too distracted with life, logistics,
> and “productivity” to take time out to experience the things that make us
> human.
True, but art as an industry created a bubble on its own. Nowadays it gives
the perception that it is all about imposture and speculation.
------
trypt
Randomly generated AI art is just a layer of abstraction on top of generative
art. A more human form of AI created art is AI-assisted art. Art created by a
human using AI tools to sculpt the art into their image which they couldn't
otherwise manifest.
~~~
leowoo91
Question is, how can we trust the artist if they are truly legit anymore?
~~~
AnIdiotOnTheNet
Art is the conveyance of meaning through a work, not the method by which the
work was created (although that can sometimes contribute to the meaning).
~~~
bsenftner
No, today, "Art" is anything an artist can convince a source of cash that the
cash they want is for this argument claiming some
object/event/scribble/thought is "Art".
~~~
eigenstuff
I'm a professional artist, where are these sources of cash I can convince to
give me money instead of spending all my money from my day job on materials?
------
afpx
The paintings remind me of Francis Bacon’s works from the 60s
[https://www.francis-bacon.com/artworks/paintings/1960s](https://www.francis-
bacon.com/artworks/paintings/1960s)
------
dillutedfixer
It's a neat experiment for sure, and I agree with others here that the high
price that piece fetched was from it being the 'first'.
IMHO, AI-Art will never ever produce the commentary in art that humans can.
Depending on the time, medium, patron, subject, artist, etc etc, symbols can
make impactful statements in art.
This AI stuff is neat, but it seems like a mash up of other art slammed
together to make something new. I think the only commentary that it can make
is that it was made by a machine.
------
SubiculumCode
Takes away room from serious art, in my opinion, like from this oil bym
Brianna Lee, _Metamorphose_
[https://i.imgur.com/VeLbX27.jpg](https://i.imgur.com/VeLbX27.jpg)
------
vcavallo
Any conversation that gets anywhere near art on hacker news makes me deeply
depressed about the community here.
------
accnumnplus1
The emperors new clothes.
------
doublekill
I think the 450k GAN painting was a bargain. There is no doubt that neural art
will increase in quality and quantity over the years, maybe even surpassing us
in stylistic insight. That painting is the first of its kind, much like owning
a first-in-style classical painting from the middle ages. Either that or it
becomes a worthless parlor trick (but I deem the chance of this low).
~~~
king_magic
But it is a worthless parlor trick. Hell, I could “create” pieces of art like
that in Photoshop in a few hours if I really wanted to. How is that in any way
anything beyond the bare minimum for creativity or artistry? Why is using a
GAN to do that any more artistic? This kind of artwork is the literal
definition of “derivative”.
But hey, people are free to waste their money if they like.
~~~
noelwelsh
Here's an important piece of art from the early 20th century:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fountain_(Duchamp)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fountain_\(Duchamp\))
Cheap parlor tricks have a long and glorious history in art, and sometimes
become important works of art.
~~~
CyberDildonics
That significance is because it was an originator and trail blazer of the
cheap parlor trick.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Level3 is without peer, now what to do? - mortimerwax
http://www.cringely.com/2014/05/06/14890/
======
ChuckMcM
There is an interesting unbalance because Comcast has so much leverage by
owning the last mile, they can push around Tier 1 providers. I'd like to fix
that, mostly by creating a public policy around municipally owned _Layer 1_
infrastructure between customers in their cities and a city exchange building.
Conceptually it would be no different than the city owning the sewers and
outsourcing the water treatment plant to a contractor (or two). Creating a new
"ISP" would involve installing equipment in the City Exchange(s), providing
compatible customer premises equipment to subscribers, and then patching their
'port' at the City Exchange to the ISP's gear.
Its going to be a long conversation :-)
~~~
exelius
This is how it should probably be done if we were starting from scratch. A
system like the one you describe would cost somewhere in the neighborhood of
$300-500 billion; which isn't _completely_ insane as far as national
infrastructure projects go.
The problem is that we're not starting from scratch. It's a lot harder for the
government to justify that expense when there are a number of viable
privately-owned alternatives. Or to put it another way: if you had $500
billion to spend and you had to choose between overhauling the nation's
education system (which desperately needs it) and providing better Internet
access to people, which would you choose?
Furthermore, do you trust your city to properly maintain said infrastructure?
Because I sure as hell don't. All I have to do is look at the pothole-strewn
roads outside my house to know that. Fiber optics are awesome now; but what
happens in 10 years when we need a new type of quantum fiber made from carbon
nanotubes to go faster? Will the cities be able to make the investments? I
have my doubts given the overall poor state of municipal infrastructure around
the country for things like water and sewage.
The system we have now is far from perfect, but we're going to need to figure
out how to make something work within the confines of what we have today: a
privately owned and operated physical infrastructure controlled by a small
number of companies. How do we craft regulation such that those companies are
more profitable when they do what we want them to do?
~~~
ChuckMcM
Good points, allow me to share with you a bit of my strategy.
There is a case to be made that much of the tearing up of the streets is a
function of people laying down multiple communication infrastructures along
side each other. We looked though the permits for the last 12 months and
compared that activity to a on-going repaving and road maintenance work. There
are several interesting variables at play in that, cost to maintain (tax
based), property tax (revenue), new permits (revenue). If you consider
switching the physical layer to an infrastructure basis you eliminate multiple
fiber/copper paths under the street, multiple fiber/copper vaults in sidewalks
and on street corners, and replace them with a common set of conduits. That
helps a number of costs, site surveys for digs, delays for city work, and
multiple trenching/paving jobs with different standards of integrity. My city,
Sunnyvale, is dealing with ways to make maintaining the city more efficient.
This sort of change helps that in ways that are not immediately obvious to
folks because they happen with dozens of different actors across dozens of
different departments.
My goal is to get the city thinking differently about communications (more
like roads and sewers than 'optional thing some folks have') so that we can
move past the current hodgepodge into a more efficient and maintainable
system. If I can get my city to change, then other cities can see the change
and see how it helps or hurts and decide independently to change. As a
particularly tech savvy city we have a strong alignment with citizens who want
better communications, and we've seen from places like Kansas with Google
fiber that such communications upgrades increase property values, which
increases property tax revenues. My hope is we can get everyone (communication
providers, city, citizens) all aligned on this idea. If so it will get done.
~~~
exelius
This is all well and good if you're talking about relatively wealthy cities
like Sunnyvale with a good tax base, but many cities like Detroit, Pittsburgh
and Philadelphia are literally crumbling. They operate much more in a "try to
keep the lights on" capacity because they just don't have the money to do
anything else. The roads are constantly torn up from traffic and just never
get fixed, water and sewer don't always function properly and the schools are
an utter disaster.
Basically, many cities have much more pressing problems than telecom
infrastructure. Not to mention that federally, the FCC holds jurisdiction and
thus final say over what cities can and can't do. What may look like
standardization to you in Sunnyvale starts to look like a hodgepodge of
municipal implementations at a federal level, and the FCC may stop you from
standardizing at the local level until they've developed standards at the
federal level. It's bureaucracy at its finest; but it does serve a purpose.
~~~
ChuckMcM
A couple of points, first I talked with a lawyer who works with/for the FCC
and established that if the city isn't involved in lighting up the pipes they
don't care what they do. The regulations would apply to ISPs _using_ those
pipes but it would not apply to the folks maintaining them. He used the
example that companies like the old AboveNet which ran dark fiber from place
to place and kept it maintained were not liable to FCC regulation.
The second thing that is interesting is that having a city maintained
connectivity infrastructure actually has some positive social justice aspects
as it starts to chip away at the digital divide. Once existing contracts have
expired and the city is in a position to change things (current single
provider contracts don't allow for this) a charitable organization could be an
"ISP" without the cost of maintaining the physical plant to/from the
subscribers. This greatly expands the available market and gives at risk
populations more accessibility. Currently kids study at the city library
(which has publicly accessible Internet) rather than at home.
Keep them coming folks, these are exactly the sorts of things we're trying to
surface and look at.
~~~
exelius
How do we know that wired broadband is even the answer? Wouldn't wireless
connectivity be more attractive if the goal is social justice? Many lower-
income homes don't own a PC, and at this point they probably never will. How
attractive is a home PC to you if all you've ever known are smartphones?
Wired broadband, to me, is more of an entertainment consumption platform.
Wireless serves the needs of low-bandwidth information consumption quite well
these days, and at a significantly lower cost and better market dynamics.
Wouldn't a city be better served by pushing Wi-Fi or 4G? Especially given the
mass adoption of smartphones by all segments of the economy.
~~~
wtallis
The laws of physics prohibit wireless from serving current needs in an urban
density. It's not a solution for the future.
~~~
fizx
The
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shannon%E2%80%93Hartley_theorem](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shannon%E2%80%93Hartley_theorem)
limits the information that can be transmitted through a given channel. If you
want to send more wired data, you add more channels by adding more wires.
Wireless doesn't have that luxury.
~~~
Maakuth
Strictly speaking this is true, however you can add more base stations with
lower transmit power so the shared media is shared by lower number of clients.
This is what is already done in urban areas with smaller base stations.
------
mokus
> Nobody paid anybody for the service because it was assumed to be
> symmetrical: as many bits were going in one direction as in the other so any
> transaction fees would be a wash.
The justification for peering is not equal traffic, it's equal value - my
customer wants to communicate with your customer. Regardless of the direction
of traffic, the traffic is equally valuable to both of us because the traffic
is the primary thing our customers are paying us for.
Unless, of course, I can get you to pay me for it anyway because of some
unrelated advantage such as the fact that your customers can leave you more
easily than mine can leave me. Comcast and others are attempting to leverage
exactly that - in many regions they have no viable competition whereas Netflix
and L3 are much more replaceable in their respective markets. This is a prime
example of abuse of a monopoly.
------
mhandley
Would be very interesting to see what happened if the big CDN providers just
depeered Comcast for 24 hours. Would certainly cost Comcast a fair amount in
customer support calls, bad publicity, and properly bring the debate to the
general public.
~~~
klodolph
It would also give the CDNs a fair amount in customer support calls, bad
publicity, and make their paying customers angry about lost business.
~~~
rhizome
Support calls from whom? CDNs effectively sit behind the Comcast site.
~~~
noselasd
From the CDN customers. They'll be annoyed if they find out the service they
paid money for isn't doing what it's supposed to do.
Since they've paid the CDN, they don't care what Comcast has done or is doing
- they paid the CDN, it's the problem of CDN.
~~~
rhizome
Those customers aren't getting depeered, only Comcast.
~~~
tonyarkles
I'm not sure of a more eloquent way to say this. Comcast's customers are the
CDN's customer's customers.
~~~
apetresc
To play devil's advocate, those CDN customers would also be unable to access
content if their power went out. But nobody would think to say the CDN isn't
doing their job if Texas had a blackout, because "I'm paying you to deliver my
content to Texas, dammit!"
It's a bit of a stretch, but I think that's the analogy they're going for.
------
signet
If a customer is paying for an internet connection, they are paying for access
the full internet, to the best of their ISP's abilities. This is the net
neutrality law we need: ISPs should be compelled to upgrade their backbone
links as they become congested, to satisfy their customer's demand. Congestion
can be easily monitored and often these peerings are "free". (Yes there is a
non-zero cost to increase switch and router capacity and to have someone plug
the cables in, but it's not like Level3 is charging for the bits exchanged.)
But the point is, since most ISPs are de-facto monopolies in this country, we
need rules telling them they have to upgrade their capacity to meet their
customers demand, if they are promising broadband speeds.
~~~
mattmcknight
We probably need pricing more directly based on bandwidth consumed, maybe with
peak hour pricing, as opposed to just based on "speed" with high bandwidth
caps.
~~~
danielweber
Like the water or electric company, users should pay according to usage. As
you say, this isn't on total bits pushed through, because the marginal costs
of sending bits at 3am is nil.
So the "usage" is based on the continued need to build out more equipment.
Usage at peak hours, as you say.
I'm concerned that the ISPs will simply charge "big users" and pocket the
extra fees, with "big users" moving from 1-in-a-thousand to 1-in-a-dozen as
more people want to use more bandwidth. I trust my ISPs as far as I can throw
them. (And I believe this distrust is at the heart of a lot of people's calls
for net neutrality; simply put, they don't trust their ISP to play fair. And I
don't fault them for that.)
But I don't mind something that targets the single biggest users and makes
them pay extra. The water and electric systems would fail without that, and
those are much simpler to model and plan for.
Thinking out loud, we need something that both
1) keeps pressure on the ISPs to keep on growing their pipes, and
2) puts pressure on the biggest users, which, again, needs to be a very small
subset of people putting the biggest strain on the system. I can't come up
with an exact number, but 20% of people being considered "big users" is too
much.
~~~
msandford
I'm willing to pay for usage, sure. And I'll pay for the physical plant to my
house too. BUT (and this is a big but) I'm only willing to do so at reasonable
prices.
You want me to pay for the physical plant? OK I can deal. The phone company
can provide me with a pair of wires from my house to their POP for about $15.
I might pay $20 since coax is different than UTP, but that's about it.
You want me to pay per bit? Great! Bill me at wholesale network rates. You
don't want to do that? Sorry, fuck off. I'm already paying for the last-mile
transport with the physical plant charges.
[https://josephscott.org/archives/2009/01/how-much-does-
one-t...](https://josephscott.org/archives/2009/01/how-much-does-one-terabyte-
of-bandwidth-cost/)
Here I can buy RETAIL 2TB of bandwidth for $120 WITH A SERVER INCLUDED. I
imagine that the wholesale is slightly (or much, much) cheaper than that. But
let's just go with it. At that kind of pricing I can get 1TB for $60, 500GB
for $30 and 250GB (the caps Comcast is talking about) for $15. If I need
another 50GB (their incremental unit of charge for "overage") I should be able
to get that for $3, not the $10 that they're charging.
[http://customer.comcast.com/help-and-
support/internet/data-u...](http://customer.comcast.com/help-and-
support/internet/data-usage-plans-expansion-exceed-allowance)
Now I think that a lot of the cost of that server is the actual machine, the
building, the air conditioning, etc. So maybe you should cut all those numbers
in half again meaning that 50GB should cost me about $1.50 and 1TB costs more
like $30. This is of course assuming you're not involved in a PEERING
AGREEMENT which as Comcast you are.
What about Comcast's costs for termination equipment I hear you say. Okay
let's talk about that. I bought my own cable modem so they're not paying for
that. They have to have another one on their side, sure. Assuming that it's
the same price as mine (it's almost certainly cheaper) that's $100 or less.
Considering that DOCSIS standards are usually a few years apart $100 / 4 years
= $2 per month. That's not too bad.
And what about the back-haul from their POP to the peering point? There's a
cost associated with that right? Yup, that's what I'm paying for when I buy
Internet access from an ISP since they're not paying for the peering
agreement.
Adding all this up: $20 (for the plant) + $15 (for the wholesale bandwidth
500GB ) + $2 (for the termination equipment ) = $37 per month with each
additional 50GB costing an extra $3
This seems reasonable to me and I would happily pay it, so long as the
wholesale price continues track the market. But with Comcast right now I'm
paying more like $65 rather than $37.
For reference 500GB/mo (if it's 100% evenly distributed) is about 5Mbps. If
you figure it's a bit bursty, say 50% on and 50% off that's 10Mbps. If it's
75/25 then it's 20Mbps. 88/12 brings it up to 40Mbps. So these are reasonable
numbers to expect given the service I've signed up for is advertised the way
it is.
------
pessimizer
This cable-menu style image from the comments is scary:
[http://i.huffpost.com/gen/1567010/original.jpg](http://i.huffpost.com/gen/1567010/original.jpg)
~~~
qnaal
Fearmongering- the internet is not going to be that easy to kill.
~~~
pessimizer
If they stop supplying it to us without discrimination it will. The internet
is made up of plastic and metal boxes that are under other people's control -
not magic.
~~~
sliverstorm
Things that cannot be simply cut off:
- populist revolutions
Things that can:
- electricity
- the internet
------
brokenparser
This wouldn't happen if those ISPs didn't have local monopolies. Networks
should be opened by selling traffic wholesale to other companies so that they
can compete for subscribers on those networks. The network owners would have
more than enough money for upgrades and if they don't, downlevel ISPs will sue
them.
~~~
kasey_junk
I'm not making a claim about the veracity of the counter argument to this, but
it is easy to state. If network providers had to sell traffic wholesale to
other companies, they would have less incentive to upgrade them as those
networks then become pure commodities. Right now the local monopolies can use
their networks to sell high margin services (cable) bundled with low margin
services (internet traffic). If they had to compete with other companies,
namely bargain ISP offerings, the cost of ownership of the network would be
non-profitable.
I've heard some argue that this is precisely why DSL has lagged so far behind
cable in upgrades.
~~~
rlpb
> they would have less incentive to upgrade them as those networks then become
> pure commodities
Pit DSL against cable, as has happened in the UK. The POTS network is owned by
one company (BT) and the cable network by others. Retail customers generally
have a choice of connecting to the Internet by either. BT (POTS network owner)
are required to sell traffic wholesale to competitor ISPs (who then buy their
own transit). This seems to work very well here, and DSL upgrades continue.
~~~
robk
British DSL is far worse than cable in my experience. Virgin's cable & fiber
offering is massively faster and has a wider footprint than DSL products I've
seen.
~~~
rlpb
> British DSL is far worse than cable in my experience.
Define "worse". What ISP were you using?
From a peering point of view as described in the article, there are a large
number of ISPs buying transit and then selling Internet connections through
BT-provided last mile DSL lines. I never suffer from peering congestion, since
my (DSL) ISP pride themselves on not having any.
For the link from my local exchange to my ISP, there are multiple options,
too, and my ISP monitors congestion on my line closely. I currently have no
congestion there, either, and if I did, there are multiple providers available
(thanks to LLU): [http://revk.www.me.uk/2014/02/bt-21cn-not-fit-for-
purpose.ht...](http://revk.www.me.uk/2014/02/bt-21cn-not-fit-for-purpose.html)
The only issue with DSL in the UK is the (mostly analogue) quality of the DSL
line itself, and the way that BT (the company with the monopoly on POTS lines)
manages them. And perhaps the pace of upgrades (eg. to fibre to a street
cabinet and copper from there, instead of copper all the way from the
exchange), but upgrade rollouts are happening (and fibre to the cabinet is
already available to me).
------
JoshTriplett
Somebody has to pay the money to upgrade the equipment and bandwidth available
at these exchange points. The very reasonable argument in this article is that
the ISPs should pay that cost, which seems reasonable given that their
customers are demanding it. It sounds like the ISPs are playing a game of
chicken, trying to see if their peers like Level3 will throw money in to pay
for the ISP to upgrade its equipment and bandwidth. That's certainly something
the ISPs can try to do; on the other hand, what are their customers going to
do, _not_ use Netflix and YouTube? If a pile of customers of one ISP start
reporting that they're all having a poor experience with high-bandwidth video,
and there are a pile of well-publicized press releases blaming the ISP,
customers will start complaining to the ISP, and they'll have to upgrade their
infrastructure eventually. (And in areas where they have competition, there's
an incentive to upgrade before the competitors, to avoid losing customers;
while there isn't such competition in every locale, there are enough locales
with more than one ISP choice to make those customers painful to lose.)
But what does any of that have to do with mandated peering requirements at the
NSFnet exchanges? Who would enforce that, and why, when any two major networks
can set up peering at any number of meet-me rooms? Requiring that an ISP peer
as much traffic as is available or not peer any at all seems ridiculous; some
ISPs will suck more than others, but that's the problem of them and their
customers, not a problem for the entire Internet.
Meanwhile, I'm surprised there aren't more startups and VCs looking to bet
that "new ISP that doesn't suck" is a viable business model. People are
chomping at the bit for Google Fiber, which seems unlikely to grow to a
national level without developing competitors. This is a space with very few
competitors, and there hasn't been serious competition in that space since DSL
stopped being a viable option.
~~~
diminoten
The ISPs aren't dropping the packets, Level3 is. From the article linked to in
the blog: "A port that is on average utilised at 90 percent will be saturated,
dropping packets, for several hours a day. We have congested ports saturated
to those levels with 12 of our 51 peers." "We"in the quote is Level3. They're
dropping the packets.
Why do the ISPs have to pay for Level3's dropping of packets? Shouldn't the
ISPs replace Level3 if they keep dropping packets?
Also, dropped packets isn't the end of the world. In TCP at least, the packets
just get resent.
The language that gets used in all of these talks ("deliberately harming",
"American business", "It's insulting") just makes me want to tune out
entirely. I don't have time for chicken littles.
~~~
jfoutz
Dropping packets makes load problems worse, because failing users start to
send even more traffic.
~~~
Nacraile
This is not true. TCP will retransmit, yes, but TCP congestion control will
also reduce the transmit rate in response to lost packets. Overall, proper TCP
implementations will back off to approximately their fair share of a contended
bottleneck. The application layer sees reduced throughput, not message loss.
New TCP connections start with very conservative transmit rates, so an
application which is overly aggressive in abandoning slow connections and
retrying will not add substantially to congestion.
UDP doesn't necessarily have these properties, but anyone who implements a
high-bandwidth UDP protocol which isn't TCP congestion control friendly
deserves public shaming.
~~~
SoftwareMaven
Except between buffer bloat[1] and users spamming the reload button, TCP's
congestion control is not going to solve the problem.
1\.
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bufferbloat](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bufferbloat)
------
jrochkind1
You would think, okay, if Comcast is terrible at maintaining sufficient
peering for it's customers needs -- and if the OP proposal to throw Comcast
out of peering exchange points happened, that would certainly lead to
increased terribleness for it's customers -- then eventually it's customers
would choose a different ISP. The market would solve it.
The problem is that in many many markets, Comcast (or another ISP) are pretty
much the only choice. Customers don't have another option, no matter how much
Comcast underfunds it's peering infrastructure or gets thrown out of peering
exchange points.
So what is the consequence to Comcat for underfunding? What is the consequence
to Comcast for even such a disastrous outcome as getting kicked out of the
peering exchange point? Not a lot.
I'm not sure what the solution is, but 'regulate them as a common carrier' is
certainly part of it, since they are a monopoly, and the common carrier
regulatory regime was invented for exactly such a monopoly.
~~~
sadris
> Comcast (or another ISP) are pretty much the only choice. Customers don't
> have another option
If an entire town is angry, their city councilors will very quickly utilize
eminent domain on the fiber in the ground and sell it to a competitor.
~~~
kej
But not before the ISP lobbies the state legislature to decree that cities
can't annex fiber.
------
cobookman
I've previously interned at one of the mentioned Cable Companies, and I see
both sides.
The solution is to make it 'capitalistic'. Change all of our internet
contracts from Unlimited (up to 'x' GB/month), to a simple $/gb cost.
It would be in the ISPs best interest to provide their customers the fastest
internet connection as possible. E.g, if a customer can stream a 4k video vs
SD then the ISP would make more money per unit time.
Think of it this way, if comcast charges $0.25/GB, and a netflix SD show is
say 1GB and HD is 4GB, then comcast grosses $1 for HD and $.25 for SD for the
same customer streaming request.
Over time its likely the price per GB would decrease, just like it has for
cellular.
On a more evil side, this would also stop chord cutters. Pirating content is
no longer 'free', and Netflix would cost significantly more than $10/month
($10/month + 'x'GB * $/GB).
As for what rates to expect, if comcast charges in ATL $30-55 for 300GB,
that'd be about $.10/GB to $.20/GB. As for speed tiers in a $/gb system, your
guess is as good as mine.
~~~
runeks
Interesting suggestion.
I've often thought about this. What I hear (I'm not very knowledgeable in this
field) is that somewhere up the chain, someone has to pay for bandwidth (per
GB) (can anyone confirm this?). But consumers prefer to know how much they
will pay each month, and so they get that -- a flat rate service.
So now we have a situation where a company's expenses are measured in GB of
data transferred, and their customers pay proportional to their maximum
transfer rate. This means the incentives of this company and its customers are
not aligned.
It's a bit like if you rent a car and the price you pay is proportional to the
top speed of the car, but the expenses of the car hire company is proportional
to how many miles you drive.
Where I live, we're currently in the process of wiring up the apartment
complex to FTTP (fiber to the buildings and copper from the basement up to the
apartments). I'm in charge of the process, and I've thought about asking
whether I can get an unlimited connection speed, but pay per GB. I haven't
asked yet, but I think I might prefer this over a flat rate price per month.
When I use the connection I pay, and it's blazingly fast, and when I don't use
it it's free. Contrasted with being slow when I use it, and also paying when I
don't use it.
~~~
wmf
_somewhere up the chain, someone has to pay for bandwidth (per GB) (can anyone
confirm this?)_
No, wholesale transit is sold by bandwidth; e.g. a 10 Gbps pipe costs around
$5,000/month regardless of usage.
_So now we have a situation where a company 's expenses are measured in GB of
data transferred, and their customers pay proportional to their maximum
transfer rate. This means the incentives of this company and its customers are
not aligned._
More like the ISP's expenses are proportional to aggregate peak demand, but
yeah, it's not aligned.
~~~
runeks
> No, wholesale transit is sold by bandwidth; e.g. a 10 Gbps pipe costs around
> $5,000/month regardless of usage.
When I went around asking for a price for a shared connection to out apartment
complex, I was asked how many tenants we had. And the reason -- I was told --
that they asked for this, was that the more tenants the more traffic consumed.
So it seems to me that _somewhere_ , someone is paying for traffic. Or else I
don't understand.
~~~
vidarh
End user ISPs often charge by traffic. But buying transit from larger ISP for
colocation or to operate your own ISP for example, is typically done based on
some combination of port speed, committed information rate (CIR) and _peak
usage_ within a defined interval (burst).
For example, at work we pay abour $6 per Mbps 95th percentile use averaged per
5 minutes, with a 10Mbps CIR and 100Mbps port speed at one of our data
centres. This means we always pay for at least 10Mbps. Our ISP then measures
our traffic and averages it over 5 minute intervals. They then throw away the
top 5% of samples (so we can have short traffic spikes up to our port speed
without paying extra), and we pay for the higher of 10Mbps and the next
sample.
Any bandwidth above the CIR is entirely dependent on whether or not our ISP
has spare capacity. The higher your requested port speed, the less likely you
are of being able to burst much more than your CIR - any halfway decent
provider will have 90Mbps excess capacity much of the time, so paying for
10Mbps CIR and bursting to 100Mbps is not unlikely, but paying for 1Gbps and
being able to burst to 10Gbps gets far more dicy.
At some higher speeds some providers will only offer links where CIR == port
speed - effectively a "unlimited" connection. If you know your bandwidth
exceeds the CIR a lot of the time, you will typically want to pay for a higher
CIR for the reason that you otherwise risk getting throttled even if your port
speed is higher and your connection in theory is burstable.
Effectively the sum of the CIR of their customers + some margin is what the
ISP will turn around and contract with their transit providers and peering
partners for. If other customers don't use their CIR, and your CIR is lower
than your port speed, your ISP is likely to let you burst (at a cost) that
moment, but traffic within the CIR (should) always have priority.
------
api
While I agree with the general thrust of the article, there is one fallacious
argument here.
Cringely argues that cable breaks even and money is made on the net, but
that's an artificial distinction. What if cable disappeared? Would they still
make money if they had to pay for the upkeep of the network with only Internet
fees? The desperation and risk of this game of chicken convinces me that the
answer might be "not much." The loss of cable might very well be apocalyptic
for these companies, at least from a shareholder value and quarterly growth
point of view.
What's happening is very clear to me: the ISPs are trying to either harm the
Internet to defend cable or collect tolls on streaming to attempt to replace
cable revenue. That's because cable is dying a slow death. This is all about
saving cable.
The fundamental problem is that cable ISPs have an economic conflict of
interest. They are horse equipment vendors that got into the gas station
business, but now the car is driving out the horse and their bread and butter
is at stake.
~~~
zanny
The problem with your later analogy is that there was minimal gating to
opening a gas station if the local tack vendor started trying to extort the
local populace to maintain a dying business model.
That is why, usually, capitalism works in these situations - if the status quo
is exploiting its customers, you can create a competitor because there is
profit between the extortion and the break even.
With ISPs, or any general infrastructure, it is a hugely inefficient usage of
resources to duplicate the work - good analogies would be how dumb it would be
to have multiple sewer systems, with only one attached to the house at a time,
or multiple voltages of electric lines where only your choice electric company
is hooked up.
Fundamentally, it is that all and _any_ future goods that require transport to
the home over infrastructure need to be public services, and the maintainers
be common carriers. Because creating the pipes (the water, the subway, the
electric, the networking) are all prohibitively expensive to try to compete
in, require deep intervention of states (which rarely doesn't result in market
dilution) and are naturally a common good because unused bandwidth - in roads,
in power line voltage, in pipe flow - are wasted potential, and duplicating
the effort and having all the lost potential as a result can be, and _is_
devastating to economies.
~~~
api
You're referring to the concept of a natural monopoly, which is problematic
for anarchist and libertarian versions of capitalism. There are certain
markets that inherently favor monopoly for physical constraint reasons.
Utilities are the classic example.
------
fragsworth
The proposed solution is at the bottom of the article (which is why everyone
seems to have ignored it):
> The solution to this problem is simple: peering at the original NSFnet
> exchange points should be forever free and if one participant starts to
> consistently clip data and doesn’t do anything about it, they should be
> thrown out of the exchange point.
I do have a couple questions though - who is in charge of the original NSFnet
exchange points, and do they have this authority?
------
guardiangod
I don't know why everyone is up in arm over this. Here is reverse thinking and
a perfect oppoturnity for everyone.
The current situation is that Comcast doesn't have the equipment/resources to
handle extra internet traffic at its peers. Most people want Comcast to buy
more stuff to handle it, why don't we think the opposite way- get Comcast to
decrease its amount of traffic?
If we can get Comcast to consume less traffic, they wouldn't have to complain
to other peers about load asymmetry.
The best way to decrease traffic? Make Comcast has less customers.
Why does Comcast has so many customers, even though their resources cannot
handle it? Because they have a government mandated monopoly in the last mile,
so they are forced to have more customers than what they can handle.
We can come to a conclusion that last-mile monopoly -> network congestion ->
forcing L3 to pay for peer.
If Comcast has to compete with other ISPs for last miles, the traffic load
would shift from 1 single entity (Comcast) to 10+ smaller ISPs. In such case
the traffic load problem would not exist.
Another solution is to breakup Comcast.
See? This is a perfect opportunity. Comcast can has its multi-tier network,
but at the price of the last mile monoploy. After all, if they want to have
the right to choose peers, we customers should also have the right to choose
ISPs.
------
jamesbrownuhh
The UK experience is, broadly speaking, that any ISP who is sufficiently tall
to have the appropriate interconnects can offer a service to a customer via
the incumbent's last-mile infrastructure. (This is for telephone-based ADSL
broadband - the UK's only cable operator is not bound by this.) But,
furthermore, competitor ISPs are enabled to install their own equipment and
backhaul directly into local exchanges, known as LLU - local loop unbundling.
LLU allows competitor companies to provide just your broadband, or your voice
telephone service, or both.
There is one further step, whereby the prices of the incumbent monopoly are
regulated in areas where no competition exists. Ironically this works in the
opposite way to how you'd think, as it forces the incumbent NOT to offer their
lowest prices in that market - the intention being to make monopoly areas
prime targets for competition and to ensure that potential competitors aren't
scared out of the area by predatory pricing.
It's an odd system with good and bad on both sides, but it seems a lot better
than being stuck with a single source of Internet access.
------
timr
People keep claiming that there should be a "free market" for bandwidth...but
then they say that the ISPs should have to absorb the costs of peering (which
can be significant -- the hardware isn't free) without passing the costs on to
_anyone_. The backbone providers complain when the cost is passed to them; the
consumers scream bloody murder when the costs are passed to them in the form
of a bill.
Obviously, there's no free market in the status quo: we (consumers) basically
expect to pay a low, ever-declining price for bandwidth, while someone else
eats the costs of a growing network infrastructure. There's an economic
disconnect, and legislating that it shouldn't exist seems worse than futile.
I say: pass the costs on to the consumer, and break down the monopolies on
last-mile cable service. If the cable companies had to compete for
subscribers, they could still pass on the costs of improving their
infrastructure, but they'd have to compete with everyone else to do it.
In other words, the problem here isn't "net neutrality" \-- it's that we've
got a monopoly at the last mile that we need to destroy.
~~~
gph
>basically expect to pay a low, ever-declining price for bandwidth, while
someone else eats the costs of a growing network infrastructure
Are we though? Our bills have only been increasing. The amount of money they
put into infrastructure has decreased[1].
The Telecoms did have to put a lot of initial investment into infrastructure,
but that was largely from laying the wires. Most of them are already starting
to see positive returns on those investments [2]. They already have the
infrastructure to support traffic to consumers in the last mile. The peering
infrastructure being upgraded shouldn't cost them even 1/10th as much.
So why should they get to pass their peering infrastructure costs on to the
content providers? They should pass it on to the consumer if they must, after
all it's us trying to get the content. But really they are going to be making
such a large profit off us over the coming decades it's ridiculous for them to
cry poor.
Net neutrality is fairly meaningless when it comes to the last mile. I doubt
hardly anyone is saturating their last mile worth of bandwidth. I regularly
have three streams going in my household and it doesn't saturate my bandwidth.
That part isn't what needs upgrading.
[1][http://www.vox.com/2014/5/12/5711082/big-cable-says-
broadban...](http://www.vox.com/2014/5/12/5711082/big-cable-says-broadband-
investment-is-flourishing-but-their-own-data)
[2][http://dailycaller.com/2013/02/15/does-cable-really-
have-a-9...](http://dailycaller.com/2013/02/15/does-cable-really-
have-a-97-profit-margin/)
~~~
runeks
> Are we though? Our bills have only been increasing.
I would venture the guess that the price you pay per megabit has decreased.
The problem is that the number of megabits you demand has increased faster
than the price per megabit has decreased.
~~~
gph
>I would venture the guess that the price you pay per megabit has decreased.
For me personally or on average? I'm a heavy usage user, but most my neighbors
pay the same as me for using a lot less. My grandparents have basically the
same service as me and all they use it for is email, some web games, and the
occasional VOIP call and video.
Considering that nowadays almost everyone has high-speed unlimited plans for
the same price I might question whether the net per megabit price for ISPs has
really gone up. At the very least I'd gamble to say that it hasn't been
anywhere close to exponential or unsustainable for them to keep up with.
~~~
runeks
I can't speak for you, of course, but 10 years ago my parents paid more for a
256kbit/256kbit DSL connection than I pay now for a 35mbit/5mbit connection
now.
My (parents') connection back in 2003 (256/256 Kbit/s for 395 DKK per month):
[http://web.archive.org/web/20040604100538/http://www.cyberci...](http://web.archive.org/web/20040604100538/http://www.cybercity.dk/privat/produkter/adsl/priser_og_produkter/)
My connection now (35/5 Mbit for 279 DKK per month):
[http://www.fullrate.dk/privat/bredbaand/priser](http://www.fullrate.dk/privat/bredbaand/priser)
That's 7.97 DKK per downstream megabit in 2014 versus 1580 DKK per downstream
megabit in 2004.
I very much doubt it has become 200 times cheaper per megabit/s in Denmark and
actually more expensive in the US (or wherever you live).
~~~
gph
That's all bandwidth, not total data usage. I'm talking about price per actual
megabit transmitted by the ISPs. It's not like you actually do 35/5 mbps every
second of the day for the entire month.
I'm in an east coast city in the US. I remember having had maybe 5/1 mbps 10
years ago. I wasn't paying the bills but I'm pretty sure it was like $50 per
month from the TV commercials. Now I've got 25/10 for closer to $70 per month.
Bandwidth wise it's risen a bit, but not really that much. Course I'm pulling
down a lot more megabits per month in streaming content (though I was big into
Napster/Torrents back then).
But my point was that most people have upgraded to broadband from dial-up even
if they don't really use it that much. Only the ISPs would really have the
data, but I'd be surprised if the cost per megabit transmitted for them has
gone up dramatically.
------
rrggrr
Godaddy, Rackspace, Google, Amazon, etc. have skin in this game. With multiple
redundant network connections they could, for a day or a week, defend
neutrality by shaping their traffic to the lowest common denominator or
routing their traffic to avoid the peer's punitive bottlenecks. Today its
Level 3 and Netflix, but tomorrow it could easily be them.
------
ry0ohki
"and make their profit on the Internet because it costs so little to provide
once the basic cable plant is built."
That's some big hand waving, because laying the cable costs a fortune, and
takes many years to recoup the cost which is why there is so few are competing
for this "super profitable" business.
~~~
danielweber
It's not even a one-time cost.
Without knowing the specific numbers, I'm pretty comfortable saying that the
costs to an ISP to get the bits all the way until they reach the peering point
is much less than the costs to an ISP to continually upgrade their network.
------
guelo
If the peering ports are congested that means that either the ISP needs to add
more ports, or they are oversubscribing their capacity. Just make it illegal
to sell more capacity than you have and the problem is solved.
~~~
runeks
> Just make it illegal to sell more capacity than you have and the problem is
> solved.
No. The result would be that you would pay 100 times more for your Internet
connection. Or, alternatively, that you cannot get a guaranteed bandwidth, but
you pay per GB.
This article: [http://blog.level3.com/global-connectivity/observations-
inte...](http://blog.level3.com/global-connectivity/observations-internet-
middleman/) states that Level3 has 13,600 Gbps of capacity with its peers.
Your solution would mean that Level3's peers can only sell 13.6 million 1 Mbps
connections without overselling their bandwidth. Even if Level3's peers have
several other Internet wholesale agreements -- let's say they actually have 5
times that capacity (most likely an overstatement) -- _all_ Level3's peers
would only be able to sell 68 million 1 Mbps connections. That would be some
expensive 1 Mbps connections!
------
xhrpost
I like the article overall but I don't understand the author's proposed
solution. The issue as it stands is apparently a lack of peering, in that big
ISPs are using transit to reach large content providers rather than directly
peering to those networks. So how would "kicking them out" for a maxed out
connection work? If I buy transit from Level3 and my connection maxes out, I'm
no longer allowed to be a customer of Level3?
~~~
joshstrange
I think he is saying that companies like Level3 should kill all peering with
Comcast if they refuse to upgrade to more peering. At least temporally to get
their attention and that of their customers that is.
~~~
Jtsummers
Not all peering, just peering at certain key sites (12 specific sites).
------
Rezo
The extreme download vs upload traffic asymmetry between Comcast and
L3/Netflix has been mentioned several times as a straw man argument for why
Comcast is justified in charging Netflix directly.
Maybe Netflix could find some creative uses for all that idle viewer upload
capacity to reduce the deficit ;)
\- Have every Netflix client cache and serve chunks of the most popular
streams P2P-style. You could have a DHT algorithm for discovering chunks or
have Netflix's own servers orchestrate peer discovery in a clever way, for
example by only connecting Comcast customers to peers physically outside of
Comcast's own network. This would reduce Netflix's downstream traffic and
increase viewer uploads.
\- Introduce the Netflix-Feline-Image-KeepAlive-Protocol, whereby every
Netflix client on detecting a Comcast network uploads a 5MB PNG of a cat to
Netflix's servers over and over again while you're watching a video. Strictly
for connection quality control purposes of course.
------
eb0la
The problem is not to peer or not to peer. The problem is WHERE to peer.
I work for a european ISP and the problem we have is the location of the
peering. Big content providers will happilly peer with you in, say, Palo Alto
or Miami; but they will refuse to add a peering connection in Europe. Why?
because today the problem is about WHO pays the Intercontinental route (which
limited and is expensive bandwidth).
Level3 is known in the industry as a pioneer for bit-mile-peering agreements.
This means you have to sample the origin and destination of the IP packets and
make some calculations to know how many miles the packet has traveled and pay
/ get paid if someone dumps long haul traffic to a peer. Getting to this is
complicated with current tecnhology and many companies are refusing to peer
with Level3 because they don't know what will happen with their business with
bit-mile-peering agreements.
------
tom_jones
Along these lines, can someone ask whether net neutrality ever existed at all?
Akamai and F5 have been helping big corporations like Disney circumvent
internet bottlenecks for over a decade now. Those who have had the money have
managed to purchase faster delivery schemes for over a decade. Could it be,
then, that telecommunications companies are consolidating so that they can
extort money not from the small guys, but from the big guys? Are Hulu, Netflix
and others willingly submitting to the extortion because they see no other way
out? To be sure, the telecommunications industry is in desperate need of
regulation because providing good service at a reasonable price for a
reasonable profit is not good enough for them.
------
neil_s
Since everyone is pitching their own solutions, how about I post mine. Let's
take the example of Netflix and Comcast. Instead of no deal with Comcast, and
thus giving Comcast Netflix users really slow or no service, Netflix should
make the deal for now, and tell subscribers that if you use Comcast the
Netflix rental is higher. By passing off the higher costs to the users,
Comcast customers are given the incentive to switch ISPs.
Everyone shows loss aversion, and so will be determined to find out why being
on Comcast gets them penalised. They will learn about its dick moves, and
complain to Comcast to make them remove these fees so they can access Netflix,
which they have already paid for access to.
~~~
Jtsummers
Netflix would lose, they have competitors and Comcast (and potentially, in the
future, ComcastTWC) has too many customers. Increasing the costs to all of
them would result in the loss of too many customers before the dust settled.
------
sbierwagen
Regulate ISPs as utilities.
~~~
hga
Common carriers are the words of art for these sorts of utilities. And Comcast
and company are in steadily increasing danger of this as they piss off more
and more voters (at a certain point, all the money in the world is of no
interest to a politician who perceives himself in danger of having to spend
more time with his family after the next election; gun owners have
demonstrated this many times).
------
Havoc
> It’s about money and American business, because this is a peculiarly
> American problem.
Hardly. We've experienced the whole interconnect brinkmanship locally too
(South Africa). Its actually quite the opposite - the interconnect things are
a lot nastier in other countries because it tends to be paid for (powerful co
vs underdog) whilst the bigger US setups seem to run mostly open peering.
------
mncolinlee
I can't help but wonder if the RICO Act applies to this sort of extortion. My
first thought was FCPA, but none of the ISPs involved can likely be construed
as "foreign officials." The behavior can be described as demanding kickbacks,
however.
------
jvdh
Just for scale, backbone links these days are not 10 gigabits/sec, more in the
order of 40-100 gigabits/sec.
The Amsterdam Internet Exchange is the largest and most important exchange in
Europe, and it's peak traffic each day reaches 3 terabits/sec.
------
keehun
Maybe I'm naïve beyond any recognition, but shouldn't the ISP's or whoever is
peering charge based on the bandwidth amounts? It sounds like they have a
flat-rate contract with each other and now they're charging more?
~~~
awor
From the article, it seems like the "flat-rate contract" the ISPs have for
peering with L3 is $0.
The issue that L3 is raising, is that the equipment/appliances that the ISP
has installed in these peering arrangements are insufficient to keep up with
the amount of traffic which the ISP's customers are requesting, and L3 is
attempting to provide.
If the ISPs were to upgrade their peering equipment to handle their customer's
requests, there would be no issue.
~~~
keehun
So by Netflix making a deal with Comcast, did L3 effectively get cut out of
the picture?
Also, isn't increasing equipment/bandwidth part of the business? It seems so
ridiculously absurd that Comcast is balking to increasing its bandwidth...
------
rossjudson
Level3 should drop the same percentage of outbound packets from Comcast, that
Comcast drops on the inbound. If every tier 1 did, Comcast's internet service
wouldn't look all that good any more, would it?
------
swillis16
It will be interesting to see how gaming download services such as Xbox Live,
PSN, Steam, etc would be affected as there as the file size of video games
gets larger due to advances in the video game industry.
------
GregFoley
The problem would disappear if ISPs used metered pricing. Why do we have
unlimited commercial broadband?
------
Eye_of_Mordor
Lack of competition all around - just break up the big boys and everything
will be fine...
------
snambi
why there are no last mile providers like comcast and ATT?
~~~
jagger27
Local governments grant monopolies to Comcast or AT&T.
~~~
Jtsummers
And some state governments force it on the local governments (see NC and TWC
versus Wilson, NC).
------
droopybuns
So on the one side is the fat-cat ISP who doesn't want to make expensive
capital investments ih their transport.
And on the other side is the fat-cat vc funded video content providers, who
don't want to pay for the their mp4-based saturation of all the pipes.
This is a negotiation. There are two active media campaigns that are trying to
gin up our anger against The Other Guy (tm) as part of their negotiations. I
just can't get invested in this nonsense.
~~~
burke
I find it a bit offensive that this can be accurately viewed as a negotiation.
This is like demanding the supermarket buy your grocery delivery business a
larger van when the toilet paper manufacturer starts selling larger packs.
It's arrogant, and violates the proper division of responsibilities. It only
might work because of local monopolies. Netflix is already paying for traffic
to Level3. ISPs need to upgrade their infrastructure and increase prices if
it's too expensive.
~~~
diminoten
L3 isn't the only content provider, and the 5 UNNAMED ISPs (Comcast isn't
necessarily the culprit here) can still provide content to their customers.
Netflix is free to hire one of the many CDNs which _do_ play ball with these
ISPs.
------
lifeisstillgood
1\. Peering is based on equal traffic both ways. At the moment we tend to
download gigabytes with a few bytes of request. As video-communications really
takes off (yes chicken and egg - see below) this will get lost in the noise
2\. rise of ad-hoc local networks This might come out of mobiles, this might
be me dreaming, and it might come with sensible home router designs, but
ultimately most of the traffic I care about probably originates within 2 miles
of my house - my kids school, traffic news, friends etc
A local network based on video comms - that will never happen. just like
mobile phones.
3\. electricity and investment In the end this is down to government
investment. Let's not kid ourselves, gas, water, electricity, railroads, once
they passed some threshold of nice to have into competitive disadvantage not
to have, governments step in with either the cash or the big sticks.
Fibre to the home, massive investment in software engineering as a form of
literacy, these are the keys to the infrastructure of the 21C and it's a must
have for the big economies, and it's a force multiplier for the small.
~~~
ep103
The problem is your point #3 has never been true, though. In each case, in
American history (though I don't know about water), the utility was privatized
for _years_, became local monopolies, and used that monopolistic advantage to
become one of the most major Washington lobbying industries of the time, often
to the massive detriment to specific sections of the economy. In each case it
was only _after_ an alternative industry rose in lobbying prominence in
washington (often, the next one on your list) that the previous utility lost
their position as #1 lobbying firm in Washington, that their competitors were
able to then force anti-trust lawsuits, and or get fair government regulation.
The railroads were monopolized until the late 1800s, the original American
idea of a fat cat comes from railroad owners who made profits at the expense
of midwestern farmers. That was eventually regulated when oil became a major
lobbying industry, whereupon oil and gas subsidies became the new norm and we
regulated the railroads. Electricity is a general complex area, but outside of
domestic coal-based electricity production, my understanding is that the
majority(?) of American electricity comes from nuclear power, which in turn is
a regulated monopoly. That industry is so locked that Northern America imports
much of its electricity from nuclear plants in Canada, and Texas is actually
on Mexico's electricity grid.
I was somewhat hopeful that as Wallstreet rose to replace other industries as
one of the top lobbying firms in America that they would end up pushing for
net neutrality so as to commoditize their network costs, but instead they
simply pushed for B2B fiber to be regulated completely differently (and more
sanely) than consumer networks.
I don't want to wait for something better than the internet to come around,
before we get net neutrality back.
~~~
lifeisstillgood
interesting. Is there a constant contraction in the time between monopoly and
regulation (ie decades for rail, years for electricity?)
------
spindritf
_Except it’s actually right (not wrong) because those bits are only coming
because customers of the ISPs — you and me, the folks who have already paid
for every one of those bits — are the ones who want them._
What is the source of the notion that, because you paid for your consumer
broadband, all bits are paid for and the charge for carrying them cannot be
split with the other side of the connection? Why is it so bizarre that both
sides of the connection have to pay for it? Because you're used to your phone
working differently?
As an analogy, you know how you used to pay for a subscription to a magazine
and there were ads inside which advertisers (the other side of the connection
via the magazine in this case) also paid for? The magazine split its fee in
two: you paid part of it, and the advertisers paid the other part. It's the
same here.
There is nothing fundamentally wrong with charging both sides. You may prefer
a different fee structure but a better argument than "I already paid for it!"
is necessary.
~~~
spankalee
No, it's not, because the other side also paid for it to their ISP, CDN, or
the build-out and operation of their own CDN.
What Comcast and friends are asking for is a _third_ payment, just because.
And don't be mistaken, if they win this battle they will start looking for the
fourth payment, which is from their customers for faster service to "premium"
sites like Netflix, HBO, iTunes, etc.
~~~
spindritf
_because the other side also paid for it to their ISP, CDN, or the build-out
and operation of their own CDN._
That's like saying that you should be able to park for free because you paid
for your car, all the taxes on it, and the fee for issuing a driving license.
Paying your ISP doesn't necessarily grant you unlimited access to every other
network on the Internet.
There is no God-ordained fee structure here. It can be split between you,
Comcast, Netflix, your landlord (many will pay for laying fibre and then for
servicing it), local government... Some may be better than others but there's
definitely no moral highground.
~~~
talmand
I'm sorry, your comparison doesn't work for me. I don't see how those even
remotely compare.
What I was actually sold from my ISP and I'm currently paying for was indeed
unlimited access to everything on the Internet. It's called an Internet
connection and that's how I interpret what I'm paying for.
If the bill can be split between me, my ISP, and Netflix then I want my bill
lowered if my ISP is going to charge Netflix to deliver bits I requested. But
I won't be holding my breath over that negotiation happening.
~~~
spindritf
_What I was actually sold from my ISP and I 'm currently paying for was indeed
unlimited access to everything on the Internet._
There is no such service. Not only does it not exist, it cannot exist. No ISP
can provide that. Any independent network on the Internet can start dropping
your packets tomorrow for any reason. Including a lazy admin filtering out
your entire country. Or due to a copyright agreement. Happens all the time.
If they really promised "unlimited access to everything on the Internet", then
you were misled but I doubt their lawyer would allow for it.
_If the bill can be split between me, my ISP, and Netflix then I want my bill
lowered if my ISP is going to charge Netflix to deliver bits I requested_
Why? It may not be increased. Or it may be increased less than it otherwise
would. Or it may be jacked to whatever amount they can get out of you.
That's the whole point. There is no pre-ordained price for carrying bits.
There is no pre-ordained split between carriers and end points. There is no
pre-ordained service level. It's all just a matter of agreement between
parties. So now they're negotiating.
I don't understand however why some believe they have moral highground because
"they already paid." Everyone already paid something.
~~~
tjgq
> There is no such service. Not only does it not exist, it cannot exist. No
> ISP can provide that. Any independent network on the Internet can start
> dropping your packets tomorrow for any reason. Including a lazy admin
> filtering out your entire country. Or due to a copyright agreement. Happens
> all the time.
The point of net neutrality is that, while ISPs should not be held liable for
what other entities in the network do, they shouldn't engage in those
practices themselves. In logical terms, that's a perfectly reasonable goal.
~~~
spindritf
That's a nice goal but it doesn't answer the crucial question: who pays for
the expansion to accommodate traffic generated by Netflix?
Netflix? Comcast's subscribers? All of them or only the ones using Netflix?
Level3? Comcast's investors? Tax payers? Some combination of the above? And if
so, in what proportion?
This is completely impervious to "I already paid and I demand..." argument
because everyone listed there already paid and wants something. Preferably
cheaper or paid by someone else.
~~~
Karunamon
>who pays for the expansion to accommodate traffic generated by Netflix?
They are _already being paid_ \- that is the problem. They are trying to
double dip.
A visual aid (not the real arrangement, but good enough for discussion:
Netflix <-> Level3 <-> Comcast <-> Me
Netflix pays money to Level3 for an internet connection.
I pay money to Comcast for an internet connection.
Leve3 and Comcast have an agreement to connect to each other for the purpose
of serving their respective customers.
The concept of "an internet connection", this thing that we're both paying
for, implies the interconnects working together to deliver, in good faith,
what their respective customers have paid for - i.e. access to arbitrary
services at best effort speeds.
The players have already been paid everything they deserve at this point. If
they feel they are not being paid enough, they should raise their prices.
Comcast, they decide they want to double dip and charge Netflix for something
_I am already paying for_. They are no longer playing in good faith, and I
argue not delivering what I pay them to do. Why? Comcast's argument carries
the sneaky assertion that they deserve money from Netflix since Netflix
consumes such a huge portion of their capacity.
Except that doesn't wash - it is _their customers_ requesting those resources
and consuming capacity.
They could throttle their customers instead of Netflix, and this would even be
defensible, but it would get them pilloried in the marketplace. But that
assumes it's a capacity issue in the first place..
But in the end, it isn't. That is a damn lie perpetrated by the ISPs. It is a
politics problem. Note how, when Netflix agreed to the demand for protection
money, their capacity problem with Comcast went away literally overnight?
Comcast either has an army of the best and fastest network engineers in the
entire world (and I invite you to speak to a Comcast user if you think _that
's_ true), or already have the gear and configurations in place and just won't
switch it on.
There is no cost for expansion here. It's money grubbing, pure and simple.
ISPs have always been expected to steadily grow their capacity and speeds over
time, and just now Comcast decides they have an issue with it? It's BS. It's a
business decision - some suit decided they could charge twice for the same
thing and do no extra work.
~~~
spindritf
They're not being paid already because the explosion of streaming video
traffic is a relatively new and ongoing process. They expect to be paid more
for moving more bits.
Now, you might expect the capacity of the network to simply increase as a
matter of technological progress. But it's not that crazy of a notion to
charge more for doing more. They could make their own customers pay but
they're trying to shift it to Netflix, and indirectly to Netflix users.
There's nothing fundamentally unfair about it.
The answer that they shouldn't charge anyone more amounts to financing the
expansion by their investors (in the form of lower returns). It's not a
political problem, it's an economic one. All of those companies are after
money, whether in additional fees or lower costs.
~~~
Karunamon
The fair and forthright thing to do, if that's really the case, is to charge
me more. I am their customer, Netflix is not. Comcast's job is to deliver what
content I ask for.
Except, they won't do that, because an ISP who will play in good faith will
come along and eat their lunch, and their plans are already absurdly
expensive.
It's not as if Netflix is blasting unsolicited traffic into Comcast's network
that they should somehow compensate them for the inconvenience. "Oh, So sorry!
That neighborhood scamp Netflix, blasting their packets all over the place".
The fact that it's Netflix is utterly irrelevant in truth. In the end,
_Comcast 's customers are the ones requesting the data_. It's just the simple
fact that it's all coming from one source starts the wheels turning, where if
it was more spread out, they couldn't come after any one person in particular
to seek rent.
>Now, you might expect the capacity of the network to simply increase as a
matter of technological progress.
As it has been for the past couple of decades? Yes, that is _exactly_ what I
expect.
I'm not saying they shouldn't charge more. I'm saying they shouldn't piss on
the internet's leg and tell them it's raining. Don't come to us with that 'But
but but capacity!' argument when their behavior with Netflix clearly indicates
the opposite, and less so when you're a monopolist with the second worst
customer satisfaction score in the entire country, and even more less so when
it's _their damn problem in the first place!_
On top of that, streaming video is a time-sensitive medium and others are not.
The sane thing to do (again, assuming this is really a capacity issue, which I
absolutely believe is 100% grade A horse manure) would be to throttle down the
other, non-time-sensitive packets like torrent, http, mail traffic. Basic QoS.
If you believe this company's stated reasons for anything, you are being
played for a fool. They can not be trusted.
| {
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Why we don't use a Rails template - ajsharp
http://thunderboltlabs.com/posts/why-we-dont-use-a-rails-template
======
aculver
"But take a closer look, and you'll see that the time is simply being moved
around."
No, it's not. Manual effort is being automated. That manual effort includes
calling to remembrance a list of gems, looking up their installation
instructions on GitHub, modifying views, editing initializers, converting ERB
files to Haml, setting up your test environment just so, and whatever else
floats your boat. Assuming a team can agree on some sensible defaults, it can
save significant amounts of time to have all those steps automated each time
you want to spin up a new project.
"The technical and social friction in changing the template discourages
evolution."
No, it doesn't. There is nothing stopping me from deviating from the norm once
the application is generated. Or if I need to preempt a step in the generator,
I just 'gem unpack' the generator, make my tweak, 'rake install', and generate
from that. If it works out, I can push the change up in a branch and submit a
pull request. The team can discuss.
Automation is good. From a business perspective I believe it's codifying your
expertise. Clients benefit from that automation, because you spend 10 minutes
spinning up their project instead of 2-8 hours recreating pretty much the same
wheel you created last month.
~~~
mileszs
I think, essentially, he is saying that you end up spending time maintaining
your template, losing much of the benefit of the template, depending on how
often you start new apps. I have found this to be true at a certain threshold
of complication in the app template. However, if you are indeed starting a
brand new Rails app every month, as you said, you likely don't have the same
cost, as maintenance to the app template happens on a more regular basis. Even
as a consultant, I don't start new Rails apps that often, and side projects
tend to involve experimentation outside of what I might consider my "stable"
stack.
~~~
snprbob86
> you end up spending time maintaining your template, losing much of the
> benefit of the template
It really depends on whether or not you start a lot of new projects. If you're
a Rails dev shop that does a wide variety of apps on a regular basis, then the
N=1 cost of maintaining the template is well worth the per-project getting-
started cost.
------
Mc_Big_G
I find it extremely useful to have a base foundation to start an app. Doing
all of the mundane gem integrations and standard set-up is not fun. I agree
that it's a challenge to keep the base app updated with improvements from the
forks. I have repo on github that could benefit from some cherry-picking. It's
great for working on multiple projects at the same time. You never have to go
digging to see how the basics work, you just know. On top of that, my clients
save at least a few days of work.
------
metaskills
I never liked Rails templates because I felt the quality of the final product
was never on par with what you would setup from scratch. To that end, I
created my own system that I call a Rails application prototype. If you are
interested you can learn more about it here.
<https://github.com/metaskills/holy_grail_harness>
I can see both sides of the argument here. My application prototype is really
slim and focuses on bootstrapping an application with a major emphasis on
testing tools. Even tho it has a JavaScript MVC framework (Spine.JS) it will
remove all traces depending on your setup questions. This approach to a lean
prototype means it can easily be updated like a normal Rails application and
changed/forked as needed. Best of both worlds hopefully.
~~~
DanielKehoe
This project from @metaskills is worth a close look, particularly to see the
choices Ken's made in assembling a development stack. It's a great example of
using a starter app as beginning point for a discussion about best practices.
Carbon Five's RayGun is another. Compare the two and you'll learn a lot about
high-powered Rails development and where it's going.
------
gyardley
Plus, if you're new, templates are dangerous. The excitement of saving all
that time on 'boilerplate' always turns into twelve hours of flailing around
on StackOverflow, totally over your head, for the right way to override some
Devise controller -- all because you wanted to save some time.
------
fdschoeneman
This post makes some good points about whether or not spending time working on
rails templates for the use of your team will pay off. But if you're just
using a template that someone else created -- RailsApps, by Daniel Kehoe, for
example -- then there's no time lost to you or your team.
I also think that a great use case for templates is to try out new gems before
deciding on whether or not you'd like to use them.
~~~
thunderboltlabs
The larger point is more about the philosophy of using a template, and the
impact on the culture of the team.
------
ajsharp
"Congratulations! You've now started your brand new project with technical
debt."
Love it.
The tl;dr here is that almost all of the decisions that an app template makes
are decisions the team should be discussing. Otherwise, the homogeny of an app
template creates a "you're doing it wrong" cargo-culting attitude.
Great post. Glad I read this.
~~~
fdschoeneman
I think this might work both ways though. I think that generating an app from
a template allows the team to get up to speed quicker on particular gems, and
thus might enable a better decision about whether or not to use those gems --
whether they use that gem in a generated app or build it from rails new.
------
tenderlove
What is a "Rails template"?
~~~
bascule
I think it's like ERb or Haml
------
programminggeek
The problem with app templates is, how often do you start a new app vs. how
often do you want to maintain every change you made to your base app template?
Article pretty much nails it.
~~~
aculver
Many consulting companies and freelancers spin up projects on a regular basis.
My experience working in an environment like that was that having an in-house
generator saved time in the long run. Same goes for developers who spin up
lots of personal projects whenever they have a new idea.
------
DanielKehoe
I maintain the RailsApps ecosystem, which includes a gem that assembles
various application templates (rails_apps_composer, derived from Michael
Bleigh's RailsWizard), Rails Composer (an application template that generates
various starter apps), the RailsApps collection of example applications, and a
collection of tutorials that explain how each example application works.
The OP argues against using a "Rails template" but ultimately his argument is
against using a starter app to begin a Rails project. His concerns are
reasonable but ultimately shortsighted.
You see, everyone uses a starter app. Here's your choices:
1) Use "rails new" to get the default Rails starter app. Add your favorite
gems and tweak everything to work together.
2) Build a starter app with you favorite gems, store it in a repo, and make a
copy every time you start a new project (search and replace to change the app
name in ten locations).
3) Build a gem that copies a starter app with all your favorite gems. Build in
a search-and-replace script that changes the app name.
4) Build an application template that generates a starter app using "rails new
-m".
#2 is faster than #1 for starting up a project (except for a little time to
copy the starter app to a repo) if you are using the same starter app more
than once.
#3 and #4 are faster that #1 and #2 for starting up a project but more time is
required to "build the tool." Fine if you can save more time running the tool
than hand-assembling as in choice #1.
But there's a problem with #1, #2, #3, #4. All starter apps are time consuming
because you need to take time to figure out what's changed since you last used
your favorite gems and hunt down any new tweaks needed to get your favorite
gems to work together. Most developers underestimate this effort and and most
starter apps, application-generating gems, or application templates end up
mired in the tar pits of neglect, abandoned in the constant change of Rails
and its gem ecosystem.
There's another choice:
5) Participate in an open source project to maintain a set of starter apps
with commonly used gems. Since you are always going to use a starter app (of
some kind), why not use one that other developers are using? And benefit from
a community effort to identify and patch integration issues.
That seems to be what's driving the popularity of the RailsApps project (800+
"stars" and 150+ forks on GitHub for the rails_apps_composer gem). Here's the
link:
<https://github.com/RailsApps>
Now about what the OP said:
"Even after the first implementation, the template must be constantly tweaked
and finagled to keep it up to date."
Yep, that's where you need the leverage of a community supporting an open
source project.
"Each one of the decisions that the template makes for you should be
discussions within the team."
There's no reason to have a single starter app or template that generates only
one stack. Take a look at the RailsApps repo. You'll find starter apps that
use MongoDB, others use SQL. The Rails Composer application template will give
you a choice of ERB/Haml/Slim, Twitter Bootstrap or Zurb Foundation,
PostgreSQL/MySQL/MongoDB, RSpec/MiniTest, OmniAuth/Devise, etc., etc. Have
your team discussion; find out what the larger community is saying; make
informed choices. You can have multiple starter apps and choose the one that
is appropriate for the project at hand.
"The fact is, 'best practices' are a moving target. They evolve through team
communication and cohesion."
Yep, and if your team participates in an open source project to build and
maintain useful starter apps, you'll benefit from the efforts of a larger
community and contribute to the growth and wider adoption of Rails.
~~~
marcamillion
I fully agree with Daniel on this one. For a long time, I was looking for an
app generator. I looked at many, and Rails App Composer (and the many
RailsApps templates that come with the generator) is by and far the best thing
I have come across.
I love being able to always know that when I want to create a new app, I have
my core gems - that will always be up-to-date once I run the RailsApps
generator.
One of the best tools in my toolbox as a Rails dev.
Thanks Daniel for all your awesome work.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
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There's Something About Redis - r11t
http://www.paperplanes.de/2009/10/27/theres_something_about_redis.html
======
tptacek
Respectfully, it's posts like this that are keeping me from investigating the
new k-v stores for our (large) Rails app. I don't want "awesome", I don't want
a "lifestyle", and I'm certainly not motivated by the idea of replacing
something that is fast enough, but not as fast as it could be.
You've got every right not to care what I think of Redis (or Couch or
whatever), but if you do and you're wondering how to address people like me
--- ie, people who would rather add one more tiny feature to a product that
sells than talk about NoSQL --- can you tell me how Redis fits in alongside a
MySQL/AR setup? If I'm already committed to AR, where does Redis (or Couch or
whatever) make my existing app better?
~~~
kvstorefool
It's all about the use case. Duh!
"Using the right tool for the job!" --someone smart
No one claims that key-value stores will entirely replace relational
databases. But there are use cases for it where it doesn't make sense to use a
relational store, cause no relations are required. E.g., I've personally
created a property table in MySQL before. But a key-value store would have
been way more suitable for it.
And not just more suitable, but also faster. But don't worry, *SQL excels on
other fronts.
Also, Redis is not CouchDB, not even close.
CouchDB is not a key-value store but a documented oriented database. Suitable
in case it's hard to normalize your data (or you're fucking tired of doing it
again and again). It's also extemely fast on read and easy to integrate
(HTTP).
I suggest further reading. Less complaining. Maybe attend one of those
conferences. Don't waste your time on Hacker News. =)
~~~
tptacek
So your take is, I should run two whole seperate databases so I can store my
property tables in a k-v store instead of in a trivial table?
~~~
janl
The take is, just because you already have a database, it might not be the
best place to but all your data.
~~~
tptacek
In what way are my users going to notice that I stored a prop table in Redis
instead of MySQL? Because I don't think they're going to notice ever, but I
could be wrong.
~~~
kvstorefool
Ouch.
They'll notice when your application is faster and more robust. You don't use
a key-value store to impress your users.
Robustness can also lead to easier development, more features, better service,
whatever.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Pain Of Torture Can Make Innocent Seem Guilty - amichail
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/10/091026152818.htm
======
btilly
This result is absolutely predictable by anyone who understands _cognitive
dissonance_.
[http://changingminds.org/explanations/theories/cognitive_dis...](http://changingminds.org/explanations/theories/cognitive_dissonance.htm)
has a decent explanation of cognitive dissonance. The same phenomena is what
causes many programmers to protect their self-image of being good programmers
by being unable to find the bugs in their own code, acknowledge that the bugs
are their fault, and then to be upset afterwards.
For a classic reference on that phenomena and what to do about it I recommend
_The Psychology of Computer Programming_ by Gerald M. Weinberg. (Yes, it is
several decades old. But human nature hasn't changed and its advice is still
good.) I also wrote up an explanation of the phenomena at
<http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=270083> some time ago.
------
aerique
A couple of centuries late but it never hurts to reinforce common knowledge
with a new study.
------
RyanMcGreal
> Gray explains the different results as arising from different levels of
> complicity.
Or as Upton Sinclair famously put it, it is difficult to get a man to
understand something if his paycheck depends on his not understanding it.
------
biotech
Sounds pretty similar to the Milgram Experiment
(<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment>).
~~~
blahedo
Related, although Milgram was showing that people can explain away their own
complicity by being within a chain of authority, while this experiment teases
apart the perceptions of the complicit (or non-complicit) agent.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Microsoft Just Palmed the Mobile Market - alrs
http://semiaccurate.com/2015/05/04/microsoft-just-palmed-mobile-market/
======
DigitalSea
Microsoft were already struggling in the mobile market before they announced
the transpiling feature. They even attempted to pay developers at one stage to
develop Windows mobile applications and it still did not work. While the
author paints Microsoft's latest announcement of allowing Android and iOS
applications to easily be transpiled to Windows 10 capable mobile applications
a fast tracked death of Windows mobile, I think it is genius.
When you have very minuscule market share like Microsoft in the mobile space,
you have to take some drastic measures. Without apps people will not buy your
phones, without phone sales you end up losing money. If Microsoft can make it
effortless for developers to port over their applications, it is a win for
them (even if it only means a minor percentage gain).
The new Microsoft is the kind of Microsoft that we all wanted to see in the
nineties. Embracing open source technology, moving away from this closed-
source ecosystem where only Windows apps can run on Windows. I would not be
surprised if we see some kind of attempt to win over Linux users by offering
some kind of Unix type environment for developers and non-developers alike.
~~~
simonblack
Personally, I think they'd be better off doing an 'Apple'. They could use an
open-source OS as a foundation instead of spending lots of resources going-
alone with something idiosyncratic that's not used by anyone else. The
resources freed up could be concentrated on improving the GUI environment (as
Apple did) which is what 99.9% of your clients will be interfacing with.
But MSFT will never do this, they have the NIH mentality so deeply ingrained
that they would rather die than look outside the MSFT World.
~~~
DigitalSea
You never know. I feel as though we are going to see Microsoft one day
implement a strategy that could go two different ways:
1) They end up giving away Windows for free (which they kind of announced with
Windows 10). Windows 10 will be a free upgrade to everyone, including pirated
users of Windows 8.
2) Windows moves to a subscription based model like Adobe's Creative Cloud.
Instead of paying for a copy that you own forever, Microsoft allow you to
create an account and sign up for a Windows account for X amount of time.
Similar again to Adobe the cost depends on whether you commit to a full year
or not.
There are definitely some interesting things happening at Microsoft, some that
10 years ago people would have laughed at you if you predicted them. Who would
have thought that we would see an ability to work with Visual Studio on a Mac?
Not me.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Ask HN: Has there been any research on Advertising and Information Systems? - MrSomething
Just wondering if there has been any work done (academic or otherwise) on the impact of injecting bid-prioritized results (e.g. ads) into relevance-ranked searches of information systems for the purpose of monetization (such as Google Search). I think it would be a pretty interesting topic, but unfortunately I haven't been able to find anything terribly relevant.
======
nfailor
the impact/influence/experimental marketing world has a few source texts and
starting points but by and large we keep that stuff in-house.
people get upset when they realize "ten cool uses for Milk" is an ad for
milk...
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
DOJ subpoeans Twitter records of several WikiLeaks volunteers - cookiecaper
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2011/01/07/twitter/index.html
======
davewiner
Here's the PDF of the court order.
[http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2011/01/07...](http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2011/01/07/twitter/subpoena.pdf)
------
cookiecaper
The title on this submission was originally "Wikileaks supporters", not
volunteers. This differs from the title of the article, but not from the
information which Wikileaks has shown, which I included in a comment here.
It's not just "volunteers".
------
cookiecaper
It doesn't look like the scan linked includes a list of the accounts served,
but Wikileaks says it's a lot:
<http://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/23583311813156865>
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Here's a problem I need solved ... - ColinWright
In less than two weeks I'm going to be giving a talk in New York. On the evenings of the 6th and 7th I need a hotel in New York that's not too expensive (by local rates), close enough to the subway (or other transport) to be able to get around, in a reasonably sane place, reasonably close to Penn station (if that's hard to get to by subway (which would be hard to believe)), clean, and quiet.<p>I, however, have next to no knowledge of the layout of New York, its stations, its facilities, its districts, or its dangers. Yes, I can learn all of this from the web, but how long will it take? My guess is hours to try to find a reasonable deal, which is therefore not worth finding because it has cost me more to drive to the gas station than it has saved on the price of the gas.<p>Someone with a very small amount of local knowledge could solve this for me with almost no work. If someone were coming to my area I could give them near complete guidance in less than 5 minutes.<p>Is there a web service to do this? I can go to hotel web sites, but that doesn't tell me about the situation, transport, area, or anything.<p>What would <i>you</i> do?
======
helen842000
What about Trippy.com or Virtual Tourist?
If you log into Trippy using your facebook login it finds people in your
social graph that have been, stayed, lived in the place you are visiting. It
allows you to ask for their recommendations.
You'd probably be more inclined to trust friends comments than those from
strangers.
The only advice I can provide re: NYC is that Penn Station is the stop for
Madison Square Garden and is only 2 stops down from Times Square - 42nd Street
station.
So really that area doesn't really fit into being quiet or sane! Good fun
though.
You could cut out Subway travel altogether and stay close to where you're
giving your talk. Least then if you have any free time after you're in the
heart of it.
~~~
ColinWright
Trippy may have turned out to be useful. Turns out I "know" two people on
Facebook who may have the knowledge.
Of course, they might not, since locals don't always know about hotels and the
like, but it's a start.
Thanks.
------
rachelbythebay
Given that you have a bit of time, enough for some back-and-forth, how about a
forum?
<http://www.city-data.com/forum/new-york-city/>
Now, aggregating that data to make it fast for future people (while being
forward about the age of the data) might be an interesting business.
------
Mz
Ask if someone on HN who is local will email you (or call you even). I went up
to Boston once for a conference and drove through New York and it was a
nightmare. From the hotel in Boston, I called someone in the DC area that I
was stopping off to see on my way back and she very briefly gave me
instructions on how to get from Boston to her place without going straight
through the middle of New York city. She was appalled that I had done that to
begin with. The trip back south was far more pleasant and faster. Than she
gave me a day tour of DC when I briefly stayed with her and I probably hit a
lot of the highlights in a very short time without having to do any research
whatsoever. Having never done the tourist version of DC, I don't actually have
any basis of comparison so I probably don't really appreciate or understand
how good I had it.
For that matter, the entire trip to Boston had been facilitated from the get
go by similar personal connections, much of it through people I only knew
online before actually meeting them on that trip. I got a speaking gig to
bring down the cost of the conference and probably all kinds of other help
that I couldn't possibly recall after so many years. I was only a homemaker
doing volunteer work and trying to get what I needed to help my special needs
kids. It got me cross country and all that, on a stringent budget.
Best of luck.
EDIT/PS: With today being Thanksgiving in the US, this is one of the worst
possible days of the entire year to ask on the internet for this sort of US-
centric assistance. You might try again either tomorrow (Friday) or next
Monday/Tuesday. (My recollection is you are British or something. My apologies
if I have misremembered and thus inadvertently insulted you.)
~~~
ColinWright
It was my initial inclination to ask directly and openly for advice, but the
last time I did that I got a slew of replies telling me it was off-topic, the
item got flagged, and I got nothing useful. This despite it being a question
about technology.
Having said that, I really do think that this is something that could be
really useful. It probably already does - as an example Trippy has been
suggested (which I'll now investigate) - and if it doesn't exist, it should. I
would certainly be more inclined to trust the comments of someone from HN than
to trust random comments from people with no obvious shared interests or
abilities. It's tough to know what this thing would look like, but it seems an
opportunity. Maybe the forums (also suggested elsewhere) is the best it can
get.
I've put a few other feelers out to see what I get, and we'll see what
transpires by the weekend.
And I'm not British, but I am based in the UK - good call.
~~~
Mz
I've seen this type of idea come up elsewhere, though I don't recall the exact
specifics. I don't think it really works. What you want is based not just on
expertise but also on trust (of a sort that has to run both ways -- not just
you trusting them) and that is based on community and familiarity. I recognize
your name as someone who is a meaningful, regular (polite and well-behaved)
contributor and thus a legitimate member of the community. And I don't
participate that much and don't pay as much attention to names as I probably
should. If I recognize you and think you are a decent person, odds are very
high others here do too. You might try checking profiles to find out who is in
New York or check HN Office Hours or other HN related resources.
My long standing experience on the Internet is that very intellectual sites
like HN which do a decent job of fostering community are The Place To Go for
stuff like this, even when it is "off topic". HN is probably your best bet for
getting what you need -- or, more accurately, the members of HN are probably
your best bet, as the competence here runs fairly high and your name is known.
Since this site isn't designed or intended to act as a forum in the same way a
lot of discussion boards are, you just may have to be a little creative in
tapping into this network.
Again: Today is just about the worst day possible to pursue this. I think only
Christmas would be worse. This entire four day weekend may be slow as this is
the biggest travel holiday of the year. So you have four days to do some
research and thinking and figure out how best to tap into what you need.
Best of luck.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Taking the smarts out of smart TVs would make them more expensive - jmsflknr
https://www.theverge.com/2019/1/7/18172397/airplay-2-homekit-vizio-tv-bill-baxter-interview-vergecast-ces-2019
======
Isamu
>This is a cutthroat industry. It’s a 6-percent margin industry, right? I
mean, you know it’s pretty ruthless. You could say it’s self-inflicted, or you
could say there’s a greater strategy going on here, and there is. The greater
strategy is I really don’t need to make money off of the TV. I need to cover
my cost.
The "greater strategy" is doing what everybody else is doing - tracking user's
habits, collecting data in your home 24/7, selling to the ad networks, etc.
Yeah, I'd say it's self-inflicted when you decided you would compete primarily
on cost.
I'm hoping I can continue to avoid connecting a smart tv to the network. If
the day comes when none of the work at all without a connection, I'm hosed.
------
kop316
Considering this is mainly about Visio, I think noting that they were fined
$2.2M for spying on customers is pretty relevant:
[https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-
releases/2017/02/vizio...](https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-
releases/2017/02/vizio-pay-22-million-ftc-state-new-jersey-settle-charges-it)
Esp considering this comment: " I think you know that Vizio has been
pioneering privacy and active viewing data disclosures for the last several
years, and we actually lead the industry in those disclosures."
------
stuaxo
This is clearly nonsense. Simply because the amount they are getting for each
device they sell our data from is really not that much so the difference
wouldn't matter.
~~~
rasz
They make it up in volume.
------
calbear81
Given the fall in prices of these panels, couldn't you theoretically build a
business where the TV is absolutely FREE in exchange it's programmed to track
some anonymized usage behaviors for ad targeting AND the TV actually has an ad
network built in that shows ads at a reasonable rate (assuming it can do
things like pause Netflix automatically and insert an ad).
~~~
rasz
"Free-PC.Com, one of the most audacious experiments in advertising, said
yesterday that it would no longer give away computers and Internet access."
[https://www.nytimes.com/1999/11/30/business/no-more-
giveaway...](https://www.nytimes.com/1999/11/30/business/no-more-giveaway-
computers-free-pc-to-be-bought-by-emachines.html)
------
gumby
The Verge should have added the word "supposedly" before "make"
~~~
rasz
and "says de facto spyware vendor" at the end.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Meet Tumblr, Facebook and Twitter’s New Rival - donohoe
http://dealbook.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/08/02/meet-tumblr-facebook-and-twitters-new-rival/?src=twr
======
andrewvc
I feel a mild uneasiness in the force, as if millions of people discovered
blogging via a great new interface, then gradually got bored with or forgot
about it just as they did the first time they tried it 8 years ago.
~~~
Alex3917
The reason most people stop blogging is because no one is reading what they
write. So they don't get any feedback, they aren't part of the conversation,
their writing doesn't get better over time, etc. Tumblr solves this problem.
It's essentially like taking the best of Kuro5hin (c. 2005) and Typepad,
without the major problems inherent in both of those communities. It's not
just a new blog platform, it's a completely different form of communication.
------
DanBlake
A dash after tumblr would have been much more informative than a comma.
~~~
city41
I was expecting the article to reveal a new service that is competing against
Facebook, Twitter and Tumblr. I suppose that says something about Tumblr -- at
least in my eyes it's pretty well established.
~~~
robgough
Read it the exact same way.
Surely a semi-colon wouldn't have hurt, but I think most people are scared of
using one nowadays.
~~~
bedris
Actually, a colon (:) would have been the correct punctuation mark to use.
The headline should have been: _Meet Tumblr: Facebook and Twitter's New Rival_
------
iamdave
_Since Tumblr is currying favor among a young crowd, it could prove valuable
for traditional companies and media outlets that are trying to build a
relationship with that audience._
This terrifies me. I'd consider myself a tumblr veteran, having built a number
of themes and using the service loyally for quite some time-I don't think
they'd "sell out", but the idea of all these large companies invading the
space, just to say they have a presence in social media, and to push up on me
and my friends so they can be "close to our generation" bugs me, it almost
cheapens the entire experience.
------
tmcw
All I can say is: thank god that this article isn't about diaspora and NYT's
childlike wonder at those talented young kids.
------
pretz
Congratulations, you win the Most Misleading Headline of the Day prize!
~~~
barmstrong
My thoughts exactly.
------
newmediaclay
"Mr. Coatney estimated that posting links and notes to the Newsweek Twitter
feed and Facebook page sent roughly 200,000 to 300,000 readers to Newsweek’s
Web site each month. By comparison, Tumblr sent closer to 1,000 a day."
Ugh -- why didn't the author make the time periods symmetrical. This was
almost as painful as the confusing title, for me.
------
mattlanger
I'm curious why people link to a summary of an article that actually resides
elsewhere--a similar example was just submitted at
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1568011>.
In both cases the summary bore a headline which significantly altered one's
initial understanding of the article at hand, and in both cases it led to a
more difficult and/or unrewarding read.
------
GBKS
So it sounds like every time there is a decent-sized online community, media
feels the need to plant somebody to repost content and engage in
conversations?
Is this only done for Twitter and Facebook (and now Tumblr), or does this also
apply to Orkut, Netlog, Bebo, MySpace, etc?
And is this only applicable to social networks that are extremely
communication oriented (vs. profile or media oriented)?
------
kwm
Wonder if any of the thousands of people who created Tumblr accounts today
(and likely imported contacts from their mail services) noticed the _blatant
lack of encrypted data transfer_? Ref:
[http://mccammon.org/keith/2010/08/02/tumblr-sharing-your-
pas...](http://mccammon.org/keith/2010/08/02/tumblr-sharing-your-passwords-
with-the-world-since-2010/)
------
lotusleaf1987
I don't feel like it's fair to say tumblr is a competitor to Facebook. It's
not the same at all. I use both and I don't think they overlap that much.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
How one small American VPN company is trying to stand up for privacy - trauco
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/10/how-one-small-american-vpn-company-is-trying-to-stand-up-for-privacy/
======
duaneb
Any american-based VPN company should be assumed to be a honeypot—use it to
dodge your ISP, not governments.
~~~
randywaterhouse
While I don't wholeheartedly agree with the honeypot allegation, I do agree
that you should take most VPN providers with a grain of salt, be it that they
are in fact a honeypot, occasionally leak data, or do shady things like
actually inspect traffic.
An additional use, and the one I use VPNs for from time to time, is to throw
off ad-network information and avoid over-disclosing information about myself.
~~~
duaneb
I'm quite sorry, I didn't intend to imply that PIA is a honeypot. I use PIA
every day (I'm using it now!). My point was to say that at the end of the day,
we must assume the government has access to all servers and services
potentially subject to National Security Letters until proven otherwise.
If the government wants to snoop on you, a VPN is one NSL away from having
full access to all future use unless you hide your identity and money trail
very carefully.
------
fencepost
I seem to recall seeing information recently about one company that has taken
steps to ensure that their technical people are outside the US and that the
staff (& founder?) remaining within the US no longer had any access to network
management, software, etc. so there could be no question of them being forced
to backdoor anything. Is that PIA?
~~~
fencepost
Replying to myself now that I've had a chance to research, here's the relevant
link: [http://torrentfreak.com/how-nsa-proof-are-vpn-
providers-1310...](http://torrentfreak.com/how-nsa-proof-are-vpn-
providers-131023/) partway down the page, in the section on National Security
Letters and Private Internet Access.
Quoting Andrew Lee: “However, to remain in the US, meant, as well, the
relinquishing of my access to the PIA systems/network. Administrators,
developers and co-founders everywhere can relate to the difficulty of doing
so, but the reality is that it was a requirement if I was to remain here. This
policy is in place, and relinquished access I have.”
There's significantly more information in the original article.
------
DigitalSea
Don't assume just because X service says they're not logging data that someone
else isn't. In this case PIA might not be logging user activity, but as the
NSA have proven in the past, it's all too easy for them to get a secret court
order and install hardware into a data centre server rack that monitors
network activities for a particular service. They've done it before and if
they wanted too, they could do it again.
The scary part is if it's a secret court order, the service provider is gagged
and threatened with legal action if they publicly disclose the fact they're
complying with a Government request. Being an American based company all the
more makes it too easy for the NSA to get the information if they need it.
This article does not make me feel any less insecure about my privacy.
~~~
Wingman4l7
Cory Doctorow wrote a piece for _The Guardian_ [1] theorizing a sort of "dead-
man's switch" for this that might allow you to circumvent a gag order.
Basically, you regularly post a signed message saying "we have not yet been
compromised" \-- and then when you are, you just STOP posting that.
As Doctorow mentions in his article, the basic idea is not new -- it
originated in 2004 with Jessamyn West, a librarian trying to fight back
against the FBI trying to look at patron's reading habits, and the
accompanying gag order. In that case, it was:
> a sign on the wall of her library reading "THE FBI HAS NOT BEEN HERE (watch
> very closely for the removal of this sign)."
[1]: [http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/sep/09/nsa-
sabota...](http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/sep/09/nsa-sabotage-
dead-mans-switch)
~~~
hdevalence
I think that one of the claims in the parent was that the feds can just hand
the NSL to the data centre provider or whatever and monitor all the traffic
that way -- they don't necessarily need compliance from the person running the
service.
~~~
Wingman4l7
True -- but then there's nothing stopping the datacenters from having a
"warrant canary" either.
------
rdl
For a privacy protecting VPN where you can't trust governments: There is
really no policy-only way to trust a provider of a security-specific service
where turning on logging is just flipping a single bit. There has to be some
kind of technical measure to protect users, and no one has built that (yet).
It also will take a pretty clear Chinese wall between builders and operators
of a service, or even an arms length multi entity relationship (eg a meta VPN
provider sells sells fairly turnkey VPN nodes to operators, who then run them;
maybe a third entity which does billing for end users and rev shares
everything out). Much more like Tor than the commercial VPN services of today.
The corporate VPN world is different, and the simple "torrent shit on comcast"
or "watch Netflix on vacation" market is way easier.
IFF lavabit is resolved successfully, you may be able to trust a US provider
for general privacy stuff, but that is months or years off.
~~~
bradleyjg
> IFF lavabit is resolved successfully, you may be able to trust a US provider
> for general privacy stuff, but that is months or years off.
I've read through lavabit's filing and I'm not sure the factual predicates are
as strong as they possibly could be. So they could lose on narrow grounds and
still leave the door open for other companies to argue that it is possible to
create a reasonable expectation of privacy for its customers in their
metadata.
However if lavabit loses and the decision is written broadly, you are right
that it is probably game over for any system that requires you to trust the
subject to US jurisdiction operator in any way.
------
jlgaddis
I'm the "head guy" at the ISP I work for. I'm also the "owner" (single member
manager) of two LLCs that I've formed but that are mostly inactive at this
point.
Unfortunately, I've been delayed (due to a fairly major motorcycle versus Jeep
accident that has me laid up) but I've been considering offering a similar
service (as well as Tor relays, including an exit node or two).
For those of you who (might) use such services, what would it take for you to
trust a provider? An AUP/ToS stating "we don't log", a so-called "transparency
report", a warrant canary, payment via Bitcoin?
~~~
rdl
There needs to be some separation between configuring the system and auditing
it. If you could only push configs through something like rancid, made it read
only to auditors or users, and could ensure configs only could get pushed
through that, it would be reasonably to trust it. It is hard when anyone can
either bypass config management to add logging, or where the audit doesn't
include all systems in scope, or is only done yearly (so bad stuff can happen
in between).
------
pzce
Whether a website is ranking VPN services or just discussing them, PIA is
almost always mentioned before any other provider. I wonder how much they are
paying for these types of advertisements...
~~~
rdl
Don't hate them for good marketing!
I think the lifetime value of a VPN customer is >$50 (accounts tend to churn
but it is be same people getting new ones, in my experience with VPNs from
before; users either fall into the long term customer bucket or use then for
single purposes).
I've only seen their ads or promo stuff in very targeted places, as well as
bitcoin (which is more them sponsoring it due to early involvement with
bitcoin), so even high cpm would make sense. People go to " top VPN provider"
lists with intent.
I see anchor free and hidemyass much more in general ads and forums. AF is
free and ad supported, and mega capitalized, so that is probably why they go
for random high volume stuff
------
maaaats
Too bad it doesn't matter. As long as the US government can do what it does
with forced silence, I'm not trusting any provider within the border.
~~~
iends
Can you really trust other countries any more? If so, why do you think so?
~~~
infocollector
I think we should ask Angela Merkel ? ;-)
------
mariuolo
Unfortunately I don't think it's the right country to run a VPN service from,
these days.
------
Learn2win
Did Google say the paid advertisements should have disclaimers?
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Show HN: Experimental Keyboard Game - aneelkkhatri
https://aneelkkhatri.github.io/keyshit/
======
aneelkkhatri
I had posted it in dev.to [https://dev.to/aneelkkhatri/experimental-keyboard-
game-aah](https://dev.to/aneelkkhatri/experimental-keyboard-game-aah) , and
got positive response. So, wanted to know how it goes here :)
------
jansan
I like the idea, but right now too difficult for me. My best score is 9. Let's
see if practicing helps.
Are there any good games that help improve typing skills?
~~~
jansan
What I do not like is that I fail at the beginning if I start typing before
three letters are visible. That feels a bit annoying. Why does the limit of a
minimum of two characters on the screen exist at all?
~~~
aneelkkhatri
That limit exists because the game is more of concentration than typing. To
improve typing skills, you can try
[http://play.typeracer.com/](http://play.typeracer.com/)
------
bananicorn
I rather like the idea and I'm probably give it a real try once I'm at home,
but is the potential double-entendre with "keyShit" intended?
~~~
aneelkkhatri
Lol no, it wasn't intended. I don't even remember why I came up with this name
:|
------
tarr11
That was way too hard for me, but I like the idea :)
~~~
aneelkkhatri
What's your best score? Mine is 94.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Princeton Agrees to Consider Removing a President’s Name - Alupis
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/20/nyregion/princeton-agrees-to-consider-removing-a-presidents-name.html?_r=0
======
alansmitheebk
No one is forcing you to go to Princeton. If you don't feel comfortable there
because of the name of a building transfer to another school. Or get a fucking
life.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
US Business Formation Statistics (2018) - sologoub
======
jppope
for some reason the link isn't rendering for me... any chance you could post
it the comments?
------
sologoub
2017 vs 2006 map is striking
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Apple’s Jony Ive said to be bringing flat design to iOS 7 - rachbelaid
http://techcrunch.com/2013/04/29/apples-jony-ive-said-to-be-bringing-the-flat-design-fad-to-ios-7-with-visual-overhaul/
======
api
Oh thank god... when that leather crap started to creep into OSX I took it as
a sign that Apple had peaked and was on its way down.
Things should look like what they are. A computer display is not leather, so
it should not look like leather. Making it look like leather is low-brow
kitsch, like a fake electric fireplace or fake electric arc candles.
~~~
kyro
I too thought the end was near for the billion dollar tech behemoth when I saw
that design of that one app they released for one of their products.
~~~
kmfrk
You must have loved the podcast app, then.
------
ChrisNorstrom
_Edit: No I'm not an Apple fan, I genuinely have a newfound love of flat ui
(not block ui)._
I've been very hard on Flat UI in the past (and still dislike the overdone
blocky look) but I've decided to embrace it after realizing it's true purpose.
It's NOT to destroy skeuomorphism. It's to destroy "forced focus design" in
favor of "distraction free design". In the past we used gradients to aim the
eyes towards a direction, shadows to make elements pop out of the page at a
viewer, overly rounded corners to seem friendlier to the viewer, etc... We
styled elements like this so we could draw attention to certain things and
away from others. The same way people wear certain clothing to stand out or
fade in with the crowd.
However, in this era of instant gratification online property owners not only
realized that content is king but that there's too much shit to do and not
enough time to do it. They need to give the viewer what they want and give it
to as quickly as possible. Confusion breads negative feelings and pissed off
viewers leave and don't return. So pages became lighter, more minimal, and
lost unnecessary elements, and so designers adjusted to this.
By getting rid of the un-needed information on a page we no longer have to
draw attention to one thing and away from the other because everything on the
page is important. If it wasn't, it shouldn't be there in there in the first
place. The buttons don't all need to have massive rounded corners and huge
shadows because they're no longer lost in a sea of text and ads. They're easy
to spot.
This is why you'll notice a lot of Flat UI sites are a lot more minimal than
usual.
The Flat UI that I HATE is the blocky kind. Minecraft / 8-bit / designer out
of college / what the hell's an a/b test inspired extreme flat ui. The kind
where you don't know if that's a header with a colored background or a
clickable button. The flat ui where everything on the site is so white white
white you'd think the owners were clansman. That crap I hate. And it's only a
few dozen A/B tests away from disappearing off of prominent sites.
I don't think this is "just a fad" anymore. There's a reason big companies are
switching to it. Microsoft, Apple, Google. They're not stupid. They run A/B
tests. They're not going to sacrifice market share, page views, usability,
ease-of-use, and their bottom line just to blindly follow a design fad. That's
just an insult to them. To say all Flat UI is backwards while the internet's
biggest companies convert to it just goes to show how delusional and
unknowledgeable we (especially I) can be. I apologize for my past remarks.
~~~
kyro
I personally think it's just the in-style at the moment. It's different than
what we're used to, barebones, and uses vibrant colors -- the antithesis of
recent popular styles. Some seasons blacks and grays and navies are in, other
seasons women like wearing greens and oranges and yellows. UX-wise, though,
flat has more problems, but people might not care because it looks so fresh.
~~~
magic_haze
Agreed, it'll probably settle down in a few seasons to something moderate
(i.e., neither the garishness of apple's calendar, nor the usability nightmare
of the WP8 app on windows.) I just wish we won't forget the lessons of these
experiments, but most likely we'll just be reinventing the whole thing again
and again. (Recent example: the horrible 90's emoticons craze is back in
messaging apps these days, except they're now higher resolution and are called
'stickers'.)
~~~
alex_doom
Do you mean Emoji? I've never heard it called stickers.
~~~
robgough
Stickers is the name Facebook are giving to their version...
[http://newsroom.fb.com/News/604/Messaging-updates-for-
iPhone...](http://newsroom.fb.com/News/604/Messaging-updates-for-iPhone-and-a-
new-look-for-iPad)
------
coob
I understand the visceral reaction to the fake leather and hatred of metaphors
taken too far, but I wouldn't go expecting iOS 7 to look like Metro.
I'd rather expect a toning down, a reduction – not banishment of gradients and
all texture and personality. Look at the iOS 6 App Store redesign and iTunes
11 for visual hints.
Just as OS X toned toned the gloss and lost the pinstripes, iOS too will have
its refinement.
~~~
Stratoscope
For a similar flattening done in a good way, look at the window chrome in the
Windows 8 desktop compared with Windows 7.
Not Metro or Modern, the desktop.
Window titlebars have lost the peekaboo effect and use a solid color instead.
The min/max/close buttons do a simple color change with a quick fade confined
to their own little rectangle, instead of glowing around the edges. It's a
subtle but pleasant improvement.
I don't like the Start screen, but not because of its flatness. It's the tiny
text that doesn't obey my screen DPI setting and the gratuitous animation that
really bothers my eyes. But that's OK, I use Start8 which brings back a non-
animated start menu with the correct font size.
------
aespinoza
This kind of thing puts a smile on my face, because it breaks the omnipotence
of one company in the industry. Making the market reflect its true colors,
which is competition. In this case, it was Microsoft who got there first, and
not Apple.
I hope this kind of innovation is maintained, because we the users benefit
from this. In so many ways.
I wonder if Microsoft hadn't invested everything into flat design, would Apple
had moved away from skeuomorphism so fast ? I think not. I hope to see Apple
fighting for the design lead again.
~~~
wlesieutre
I doubt Ive is going to take it as flat as Metro. It seems more likely that it
will take cues from recent changes like iOS 6's App Store and Passbook, which
dropped the shiny glass appearance but still have some amount of lighting on
them.
My personal hope is that they push it a bit flatter than that to something
like what Google did in their new iOS Maps app. We'll see.
~~~
aespinoza
I agree. Apple will try to do it is own thing with Falt UIs. And that is also
great. The fact that things are progressing and Apple is again willing to
experiment on that front is all that matters. Google will have its own take on
Flat UIs as well, and that is cool too.
~~~
wlesieutre
On the other hand, 9to5mac says:
_The new interface is said to be “very, very flat,” according to one source.
Another person said that the interface loses all signs of gloss, shine, and
skeuomorphism seen across current and past versions of iOS. Another source
framed the new OS as having a level of “flatness” approaching recent releases
of Microsoft’s Windows Phone “Metro” UI._
So maybe I'm wrong. At the very least I expect it to keep the rounded corners
instead of taking things to uniformly shaded boxes.
------
hkmurakami
I'm no expert in design, but when trends change so consistently, I have to
wonder whether this is like automobile design or fashion where UI design kind
of just "rotates" and churns indefinitely rather than head towards "the true
answer"
I have no idea and no opinion on which is better etc, just genuinely curious.
~~~
morsch
Fashion and automobile design are quite mature fields, though, compared to
human machine interfaces. This is reflected in the fact that most changes in
digital interfaces include shifts in terms of functionality. These kinds of
changes are very rare in fashion: pants (either BE or AE) all work mostly the
same -- and so do cars. The choices made seem to affect mostly aesthetics as
opposed to functions.
I guess it's possible that at some point the major interface methods will be
standardized to such a degree that future changes will be aesthetic, to avoid
putting off people, if nothing else. For instance, there was considerable
resistance to MS changing the functional interface of Office not too long ago.
But even mature consumer interfaces such as windowing systems continue to
introduce additional functionality, although I guess some might characterize
those changes as mere window dressing (heh), as well.
Some computer interfaces do head towards what some conceive to be the true
answer, with a slow stream of incremental improvements, e.g. the Unix shell.
But that's a professional interface subject to other kinds of pressures than
consumer technology.
IANAD.
~~~
brudgers
Automotive design has changed radically around function - safety and
aerodynamics being the most obvious visible changes which could be trivialized
as styling.
~~~
morsch
Ok, obviously you're right about that, but I was thinking just in terms of the
human-machine interface. Even then, automotive engineering is much less
"stale" than fashion, and any new technology may push towards more radical
change.
~~~
brudgers
Touch screen navigation, voice control, DVD players, third row seating,
dynamic stability control, launch mode, dial-in suspension...etc.
------
DigitalSea
While it's possible, it's highly doubtful Apple will radically shift away from
their current look. Microsoft are currently associated with the whole flat-
design UI trend and I can only speculate that changing to a completely flat
look would only fuel the speculation that Apple are out of ideas and lack
vision to keep innovating thus driving their share price down further and
undoing all of their hard work over the years. You're only as good as your
last hit as they say in the music industry.
I am envisioning if Apple does change to a flat UI look, it'll have their own
little twist on it. I think it's a given they'll drop the skeuomorphism from
iOS, because lets face it, skeuomorphic elements like leather books and note
paper backgrounds look dated when used anywhere (not just mobile
applications). I would expect things will get flatter, but evident by their
latest Mac OS and iTunes redesigns which I think give us a sneak peek of the
direction: not completely flat, still dabs of light & aluminium as well as
rounded corners on things. Whatever the end result is, I think we can all
agree Apple needs to evolve. The iOS interface has remained basically
untouched since 2007, it's time for a change because the aging operating
system is starting to show its age.
------
nwh
I can't see Apple being able to do this even if they tried. So many apps in
iOS rely on the standard elements, mix them with others, make overlays using
them and so forth. For them to "remake" the OS now would break tens of
thousands of apps, and to offer a new UI as an upgrade would stunt adoption.
No matter what happens in this scenario, Apple is left with two half
interfaces. Not clean at all.
~~~
0x0
They could make redesigned standard elements opt-in, so old apps would still
use the old styles and continue to work.
(I've certainly seen apps change behavior simply by being recompiled by a
newer SDK, so there must be something in the binary loader that sets a bunch
of compability flags or something)
~~~
Snoptic
Right. This is how Aqua migrated to Brushed Metal
------
geuis
Even if they don't go as far as I wish they would (complete UI redesign) I'll
be fairly happy with modest updates to the overall UI. I'm not a big fan of
Win8, but I've quite liked the MetroUI look on their phones. A nice middle
ground between the two would be a great update.
------
suyash
Personally I would have liked if iOS kept the skeumorphism look and feel. I
prefer that to Flat Design. Now I guess all the platforms would look and feel
similar :( (Android, Windows and iOS) I hope iOS 7 look and feel much
different.
~~~
Jack000
I agree, that design style strongly distinguished Apple from Android and MS.
~~~
rubinelli
On the other hand, it will make it much easier for developers to create cross-
platform apps that don't look like complete aliens in one OS or the other.
------
mikec3k
I really hate the flat design. I prefer to see some depth as a indicator that
something is clickable & active.
~~~
Shooti
Android 4.x/Holo doesn't get enough credit for absolutely nailing the right
balance. It's "flat", but has depth.
Going purely by the strength of their design team, I'd expect iOS 7 to be
closer to Android-flat rather than Metro-flat.
------
sgdesign
"The changes would likely be welcomed by most, though they could result in a
negative reaction from users who’ve grown used to the current Apple way of
doing things."
What extraordinary insight…
------
outside1234
If so, will Microsoft sue Apple for stealing their look and feel? #irony
~~~
jussij
If I was somewhere high up in Microsoft I'd serious think about it. Nothing
too serious, just dragging them into court would be enough.
What goes around comes around.
------
chrismealy
I'm sure Dieter Rams used some nice textures here and there. Ive can steal
that too.
~~~
potatolicious
Unsure why you were downvoted - Apple has borrowed _heavily_ from Dieter Rams
in the past decade or so. Heck, the current iPad Music app is a straight lift
from the famous Braun SK radio/record players.
That being said, there's no real reason why Apple has to use textures
anywhere. Dieter Rams designed physical products which by their nature _must_
have some texture or another. Having texture is purely optional in a digital
product.
------
pdeuchler
This seems like blog spam based on blog spam based on "sources". I'd take it
with a grain of salt.
I'd also be very skeptical that Ive would create a sweeping change to a
formula that works so well currently (Regardless of what the technorati think,
joe consumer loves the iPhone UI. Small gizmos and refreshes are all that's
needed to keep the standard consumer sufficiently happy), especially with Cook
in charge.
A better article could probably be condensed into: "According to sources it
looks like Apple will follow the latest design trends and begin incorporating
flat design into their products." Which is a no-brainer and hardly sells
adspace.
------
mixmastamyk
I wish on ios I could pick a theme and stay with it. I dislike how every page
is white and every other black with no rhyme or reason. At night the white
screens are especially blinding even at lowest brightness. Sometimes negative
works, but not when screens are half-white, half-black as is the trend lately.
Sigh... I miss the days of Windows 95? when I chose a theme and all apps had
to follow it.
------
dr_
Given the discussions they've reportedly been having with Yahoo
[http://mobile.theverge.com/2013/4/9/4206794/apple-and-
yahoo-...](http://mobile.theverge.com/2013/4/9/4206794/apple-and-yahoo-in-
talks-to-build-a-deeper-ios-partnership)
I wonder if Yahoo's new, aesthetically pleasing IMO, weather app is an
indication of things to come to iOS.
------
kayge
Just when my poor parents were starting to get the hang of using their new
iPhones... On a more serious note, I know it's never going to happen, but it
would be nice if Apple would just create a Theme system and allow the user to
choose how they want their default apps and controls displayed.
------
hapay
I think flat UI is horrible. Outlook 2013 looks like piles of words. I can't
tell where one email stops and the next starts. I would take leather trim over
that any day.
------
r0s
One of my favorite mods for OSX is to revert the dock back to "2D" mode. The
mirrored table effect is not to my taste.
------
Aloha
I think its about time.
That said, a complete UI overhaul is.. I just see it as unlikely all at once,
more of a gradual thing.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
World `countries` – database table for MySQL - pericd
http://echobehind.wordpress.com/2012/09/23/world-countries-database-table-for-mysql/
======
stevoski
Nice work...but this is not a perfect database of countries.
* Territories such as Réunion are listed as countries
* Countries that ceased to exist are not listed (Yugoslavia, Soviet Union) although the world's most recent new country (South Sudan) is listed.
* Kosovo is listed, although not recognised by all the world. Transnistria is not listed, even though it has de facto sovereignty.
* Total land area is a disputable amount in several circumstances.
There are several more such examples I could list.
Yes I'm being pedantic. But I have a special interest in this area, and I'm
aware of just how hard it is. People are born in one country (Soviet Union)
and die in another (Ukraine), even though they never moved from their home
city (Odessa).
~~~
vhf
_People are born in one country (Soviet Union) and die in another (Ukraine),
even though they never moved from their home city (Odessa)._
People are even born in one city (Leningrad) in one country (Soviet Union) and
die in another city (St-Petersburg) in another country (Russia), although they
never moved.
~~~
webjunkie
Wasn't the country Russia still Russia, just within the Union?
~~~
guard-of-terra
It was Russian Soviet Federal Socialist Republic, and now it is Russian
Federation.
You probably still could go with "Russia" every time.
------
dfc
Another time saver: TimezoneDB [1]
_TimeZoneDB provides free time zone database for cities of the world. The
database is licensed under Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 License. It
contains countries name, time zones, abbreviation, GMT offset, and Daylight
Saving Time (DST). The data is available in CSV and SQL format. You can
download and implement into your projects for free._
[1] <http://timezonedb.com/download>
~~~
jlgreco
The tz database that this is sourced for is one of the most impressive
compilations of information that I have ever seen. Timezones seem like they
should be simple, but the reality is very impressive:
[http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9f/Tz_map_wo...](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9f/Tz_map_world2009r_efeledotnet.png)
------
speleding
If you want an "official" (i.e. kept up to date by the UN) machine readable
list of countries then this is a better source:
<http://www.unicode.org/cldr/data/charts/summary/root.html>
This list also has currencies and some other stuff, but a Ruby script to
extract what you want should not take more than 10 lines.
This list has the added advantage of being available in pretty much all the
languages in the world, in case you need localisation for your project.
Side note: if you want to check if a list is up to date, check for "Aruba" and
country code BQ (Caribbean). They changed the status of independent country a
year ago so many lists don't have it yet (used to be a Dutch colony).
------
adaml_623
Some countries have more than one currency code, China has CNY and CNH.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renminbi#CNH>. I'm not going to debate the fact
that CNH isn't official even though it is traded.
~~~
justincormack
When you trade it you trade CNY with a note saying please settle in Hong Kong,
you cannot use the CNH symbol...
------
llcoolv
Only two comments: 1\. It is Czech Republic, not Czechia. At least in English.
2\. Having the mulitple spoken languages in a single column is against
normalization a bit. If one would have to use those values, they would need to
parse the csv, etc.
------
jph
Similar kinds of data are in my GitHub repo, in case it helps people here.
<https://github.com/sixarm/sixarm_data_geolocation>
Suggestions welcome.
------
mxfh
Apart from the geometry the dBase tables of the Shapefiles from
<http://www.naturalearthdata.com/> are also exceptionally useful if imported
elsewhere.
------
stuartjmoore
Is there a single source for data like this? Lists countries, currencies,
timezones, dictionary words.
A Wiki for massive amounts of data that is basically common knowledge.
~~~
apaprocki
Yes, Unicode CLDR[1] provides all of this data and more in XML format.
[1] <http://cldr.unicode.org/>
------
ocharles
Primary key on idCountry, no unique constraints on name/code/isoAlpha3, and
'default' blank values? It's certainly a start, but it's also a bit
questionable.
------
bergie
Geonames has a bunch of freely-available location datasets. I've used it in
various apps for cities, countries, postcodes, etc:
<http://www.geonames.org/export/>
------
gulbrandr
If it may help, here is a list of world countries in CSV, XML and JSON
formats.
<https://github.com/mledoze/countries>
------
randomdrake
Cool work. I thought this was going to be a static .SQL file or something from
the title. I was pleasantly surprised to find that it's actually a program[1]
to dynamically generate a countries table based on current data. In addition:
it's possible to define the columns you want to grab like name of the country,
population, languages spoken, and so on.
[1] - <http://peric.github.com/GetCountries/>
~~~
pericd
I was thinking about that, and maybe I'll do it. I'm also thinking about
selecting between SQL or XML code.
------
briteside
Another source, with SQL, XML, JSON, etc.:
<http://data.brighterplanet.com/countries>
and a lot more like it at:
<http://data.brighterplanet.com>
------
thadk
It would likely also be useful to have the local language name for the
countries as an optional column. You can probably source this from the
<http://naturalearthdata.com> source mentioned elsewhere here.
------
einhverfr
Thanks for this. I think it sounds worthwhile to move my own country table
work in PostgreSQL to an extension so everyone else can use it. Thanks for the
inspiration/motivation!
------
jpswade
See ISO 3166...
<http://www.iso.org/iso/home/standards/country_codes.htm>
------
SirPalmerston
I actually faced a similar problem and I ended up writing an almost identical
script which generated a JSON or XML file (depending on the user's need).
------
gllen
Isn't it easy enough to just delete columns you don't need after importing one
of the public sources?
~~~
freework
...or just leave the data in. Having a few extra columns on a 250 row table
isn't going to hurt anything.
------
tomd3v
Very nice job. That would be great if there were such thing for cities and
nationalities.
------
lathamcity
Hmm, I see some countries on here that weren't on the Sporcle map.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Nervous about nukes again? Here’s what you need to know about the Button - mysterypie
https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/nervous-about-nukes-again-heres-what-you-need-to-know-about-the-button-there-is-no-button/2016/08/03/085558b6-4471-11e6-8856-f26de2537a9d_story.html
======
pluma
As a European, I am always nervous about nukes. American nukes specifically.
And not so much about Trump, who is a buffoon but doesn't actually want to get
too involved in messy foreign politics, but Clinton, who as a Secretary of
State has already proven to be another warmonger.
The US has had a blasé attitude to nuclear weapons ever since the start of the
Cold War. The majority of situations where we have come close to global
thermonuclear war involved careless US behaviour. The US is the only nation in
the history of mankind to have used nuclear weapons at all.
If there will ever be a nuclear war, the US is the most likely country to make
it happen. Sure, some deranged dictator might fling a single nuclear missile
somewhere at some point (and it will probably be intercepted before it can do
any real damage) but if I had to bet on a country to end the world as we know
it, all my money would be on the US.
~~~
oneloop
Please don't buy this idea that Trump is just an innocent buffoon. The guy is
genuinely dangerous.
[https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=j1vlMUfR_Wc](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=j1vlMUfR_Wc)
~~~
ThomPete
Yet the only one who sent US troops in war and partly responsible for the
power vacuum which allowed ISIS to gain power is Clinton.
Clinton might be saying many crazy things but he is fundamentally a business
man not religious or idealistic person.
~~~
oneloop
My issue with Trump is how ignorant he seems to be about everything he's
asked. You might say that Clinton is dangerous, but she's not stupid. Trump IS
very stupid.
Also, what is this "power vacuum"that you're talking about? What are you
trying to say, that if Obama was militarily more aggressive, there would be
less ISIS? Weren't you just before concerned about Clinton wanting war? You
can't have both.
~~~
gonvaled
The power vacuum comes from topping Saddam Hussein for geopolitical reasons.
Opportunistic use of the September 11 attacks to open up a new era of wild-
wild-west politics, where the world is up for grabs.
And we wonder that Russia feels emboldened to push its geopolitical interests?
Russia _needs_ to do that, or risk being wiped out from the world stage by an
extremely aggressive US.
~~~
oneloop
Regarding your second paragraph, awareness amongst the US population should be
risen about that. For the past 3 or so years Russia has been getting more and
more nervous about the US defence shield. Its argument is that the US can use
it for offence missiles which could be used to strike and neutralise its
nuclear potential.
Instead of addressing the issue, the US has been playing dumb by claiming that
"don't worry mate, this is against Iran not Russia!"
Now, Russia plays its own geopolitical game too, of course. And you might
believe that the US defence shield poses no danger to Russia. But you have to
ask yourself, what does Russia believe? Because if Russia really believes the
US is making moves to neutralise its nuclear threat, it's just a matter of
time until it strikes, because like you said the alternative is to be wiped
out from the world stage. Don't corner a rat. Very very concerning.
And this has been some ten years in the making, since the US withdrew from the
Anti-Ballistic Missile treaty (which the US argued at the name was so that it
could build its missile defence system). This does not seem conducting of
stability in the world.
------
runarb
The security of nuclear weapons may be less tight than one may think. Hare are
some classics:
British nukes were protected by bike locks -
[http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7097101.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7097101.stm)
Launch code for US nukes was 00000000 for 20 years -
[http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/12/launch-code-
for-u...](http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/12/launch-code-for-us-nukes-
was-00000000-for-20-years/)
~~~
marvin
Not only that -- before the creation of Permissive Action Links in the early
1960s, few nuclear weapons had launch codes at all.
~~~
arethuza
UK Trident warheads don't have PALs in the usual sense - the crews on the
boats have everything they need to launch.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permissive_Action_Link](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permissive_Action_Link)
------
nabla9
The football, the biscuit and the verification from secretary of defense are
needed to confirm the authenticity of the authority. Secretary of defense
doesn’t have veto power but he can use his judgment and refuse. Might lose his
job though.
The authorization codes are used to demonstrate down the chain of command that
the use of nuclear weapons has been authorized. Even after that the judgment
is distributed to individuals. The president has only the authorization codes.
Actual launch codes are in the hands of STRATCOM. There are generals who can
refuse a direct order.
------
JumpCrisscross
> _The president can order this without consulting Congress, without being
> checked by the Supreme Court._
Perhaps a single person's power to launch up to 2,000 nukes needs to be
revisited?
~~~
jon-wood
It does seem more than a little strange that the president has to battle with
congress to get a law passed providing easier access to healthcare for people,
but if they want to wipe out a good chunk of humanity then that's their
prerogative.
~~~
yodsanklai
Even in airplanes, they have a "two crew cockpit rule" to prevent one guy from
crashing the plane (as it happened recently in south of France).
[http://www.denverpost.com/2015/03/26/u-s-airlines-use-two-
cr...](http://www.denverpost.com/2015/03/26/u-s-airlines-use-two-crew-cockpit-
rule-to-stop-renegade-pilots/)
------
blowski
How much of this is accurate and up to date? I'm extremely skeptical when
details like this appear in newspapers.
~~~
Noseshine
I hope the question is rhetorical, since if the information is indeed
deliberately hidden and only false stories are made public, the few who know
the real story are unlikely to post about it here on HN. So whoever answers
the question either doesn't know anything or is trying to mislead you
(further) :)
------
reacweb
Do not worry, they have changed the passwords: [http://arstechnica.com/tech-
policy/2013/12/launch-code-for-u...](http://arstechnica.com/tech-
policy/2013/12/launch-code-for-us-nukes-was-00000000-for-20-years/)
------
cyberferret
The article states that the president can use the 'biscuit' and the 'football'
to instigate a nuclear attack on his sole discretion, but haven't those rules
been changes in recent years to require a second government official to
confirm and acknowledge the order?
~~~
welanes
That's probably the case. Attack authorization surely involves more than
opening a briefcase and pressing a big red button. (Edit, yep: 'The National
Command Authority comprising the president and Secretary of Defense must
jointly authenticate the order to use nuclear weapons to the Chairman of the
Joint Chiefs of Staff').
The Washington Post detests Trump so the purpose of this piece is not to
inform, but rather to plant the potential devastation of nuclear weapons and
Trump's temperament in the mind of the reader.
~~~
iaw
My understanding is that target selection is more involved, but launching is
essentially reading numbers off a list into a cell phone...
~~~
welanes
Some insight on the process here:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_Codes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_Codes)
------
philjohn
Posted as a reply, but if you want to read more about the command and control
structure in the US, and why it evolved as it did (tl;dr paranoia during the
cold war for the most part) the excellent Command and Control is a good intro
to the subject: [https://www.amazon.co.uk/Command-Control-Eric-
Schlosser/dp/0...](https://www.amazon.co.uk/Command-Control-Eric-
Schlosser/dp/0141037911)
------
wtbob
> Bill Clinton allegedly misplaced the biscuit and didn’t tell anyone for
> months.
Boggle.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
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How We Use Firebase Instead of Redux (With React) - dsaffy
https://pragli.com/blog/how-we-use-firebase-instead-of-redux-with-react/
======
rlargman
Do you run into any problems having a fully untyped data schema represented in
one big JSON blob?
~~~
dsaffy
It's a bit inconvenient sometimes, but it can be done well.
[https://firebase.google.com/docs/database/web/structure-
data](https://firebase.google.com/docs/database/web/structure-data)
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
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Ask HN: Startup accounting for SaaS model? - wensing
What accounting software do you use to track your subscription-based service? Everything I've looked at focuses on helping SMB do invoicing, billing, etc which is consulting, which is not what we're building here. I would probably go with Quickbooks but I use a Mac and we don't have any Employees so a lot of the functionality seems moot.
======
jeffepp
Accounting software is typically similar to Quickbooks for tax purposes.
You can check out <http://lessaccounting.com> \- they make accounting suck
less.
If you are looking for a financial dashboard or forecasting, here are a couple
interesting apps: <http://indinero.com> & <http://60mo.com>
~~~
ebuchholz
I would say if you're looking for straight up accounting xero, lessaccounting,
or QuickBooks would be the way to go.
If you want a financial dashboard independent of accounting, Mint or indinero
make the most sense at the moment.
We built <http://60mo.com> as a forecasting tool first and foremost, and it
integrates with QB and QBO now (and other tools soon) to bring in actual data.
We've got a lot more coming down the pipe, so give it a try!
------
tylerrooney
I haven't used Xero (xero.com) for a SaaS business but their accounting webapp
is quite solid and customer support has always been incredibly helpful.
They also have an API if you're looking to possibly programmatically add
transactions: <http://blog.xero.com/developer/api>
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
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Number of people renouncing US citizenship reaches a new record in 2017 - rodionos
https://axibase.github.io/atsd-use-cases/Expatriation/
======
Maultasche
I'm currently living in the US, but from what I hear, it can be a real PITA to
be a US citizen living overseas since the US introduced new laws to catch
wealthy citizens hiding their wealth from taxes.
In their zeal to find and tax such hidden wealth, the US has passed a law
mandating that all banks must do extensive reporting on the assets of all US
citizens living outside the United States, or they will be faced with high
penalties. So any bank who does business in the US or has any sort of assets
in the US is required to do this. The law applies to all banks everywhere, but
the US can only reach what's located in the US.
The banks overseas find this requirement to be quite onerous and costly. The
result? Many banks in other countries are refusing to take US citizens as
clients and many US citizens living in other countries finding themselves
without bank accounts and have to work to locate a bank who will be willing to
accept them as a client.
The taxation of non-resident citizens overseas is once again aimed at the
wealthy escaping taxes, but it affects the non-wealthy too. The average
citizen living overseas won't end up having to pay taxes on their income (at
least if the US has a tax treaty with the country they are living in) unless
they make a lot of money, but they still have to declare all their assets and
file taxes.
It's a lot more complicated filing from other countries than filing taxes when
you're located in the US, especially if you have a range of assets like
property, investments, and earned income. You also have to balance what you
pay in US taxes vs what you pay in local taxes and figure out what to deduct
on which tax return. This means a citizen has to find a tax expert who is
familiar with the tax laws of the US and the local country, and that tends to
be expensive.
So all the measures to tax the wealth of wealthy people fleeing the country
end up significantly negatively affecting the lives on non-wealthy US citizens
living in other countries.
So I'm not surprised that US citizens living overseas are increasingly giving
up their US citizenship. As time goes on, US citizenship is slowly becoming
less of an asset and more of a liability for anyone living outside the United
States.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
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MIT Actually Reinvented The Wheel [video] - jgrahamc
http://digg.com/video/mit-actually-reinvented-the-wheel
======
BerislavLopac
Hmmmmmm...
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6562683](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6562683)
------
Zigurd
It's expensive, and it's a retrofit.
There are hundreds maybe thousands of models of highly evolved e-bikes made in
China that have better features and lower cost. In addition to having an
e-bike specific frame design that takes battery weight out of the wheel, most
of them have removable batteries, which means you can recharge them at your
desk at work and they won't get stolen.
------
datacog
And I was thinking the CopenHagen Wheel was invented by Andy Botwin (Weeds
series - [http://www.fastcodesign.com/1665013/how-weeds-became-a-
marke...](http://www.fastcodesign.com/1665013/how-weeds-became-a-marketing-
high-for-mits-hybrid-bike-wheel))
------
malandrew
I like this version because it's not a retrofit and easy to take with you
(remember: these are theft targets):
[http://www.rubbee.co.uk/](http://www.rubbee.co.uk/)
I can't comment on the efficient of the different techniques though.
------
yread
[http://www.gizmag.com/superpedestrian-mit-copenhagen-
wheel/2...](http://www.gizmag.com/superpedestrian-mit-copenhagen-wheel/29994/)
699$, 250/350W, available q1 2014
------
medium
Wow- Digg? I thought we were supposed to continue to ignore/punish them into
oblivion for eternity.
------
paulhauggis
Wow, a digg link? I haven't been there in a long time...
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
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Here’s Why Fortnite May Be the Ultimate Growth Marketing Example - MattMalcolm
https://gallantway.com.au/blog/fortnite-growth-marketing-case-study/
======
arkades
Nothing in this article is even vaguely unique to fortnite. It’s a passable
description of many f2p games - which don’t have fortnite’s success. That
makes it a pretty poor argument for these factors being the key.
~~~
MattMalcolm
Hello, Matt from Gallantway here. In some ways, I agree. In fact, Your comment
reminds me of the video 'everything is remix'... What do you think we missed?
Perhaps a better baseline for comparison would be digging into strategy &
tactics from the perspective of PUBG vs Fornite?
~~~
arkades
I think that comparison would be interesting, as well as perhaps a third title
that carries many of the same marketing mechanisms but in a different genre,
to control for trends in that vein. Perhaps something like Path of Exile or
Hearthstone.
~~~
MattMalcolm
I like it.
------
rasz
Thats a lot of cure stats, truth is Epic dropped some serious money into
marketing, paying off popular streamers, blogs and YTbers.
~~~
MattMalcolm
I think we could hazard a guess and say 'serious' money, is a 'serious'
understatement. I'd say we could do an entire piece on this alone with indie,
EPIC and EA!
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
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The Universe Knows Right from Wrong - optimalsolver
http://nautil.us/issue/89/the-dark-side/the-universe-knows-right-from-wrong
======
bawolff
Maybe im missing it, but the argument seems to be morality is objective
because everyone thinks it is. How is that not begging the question?
Then there are a bunch of pithy lines, which the author seems to treat as
obvious in context revelations, but to me seem to utterly lack
evidence/argument.
> "No matter how the universe had turned out, two plus two would equal four
> and it would have been wrong to torture people for fun."
Umm why? That seems non obvious to me.
>"Pleasure is good and suffering is bad because Reality is essentially
directed toward the former and away from the latter"
Is it though? And that's ignoring the whole question of wtf does it even mean
for reality to be directed in some direction.
> "My proposal is that the inherently directed nature of Reality entails that
> it’s objectively good for Reality when it manifests as pleasure and
> objectively bad for Reality when it manifests as pain."
Umm ok.
>"It is broadly agreed that (all things being equal) pleasure is good and pain
is bad..."
Isn't the definition of pleasure, being good. Seems kind of circular -
everyone agrees feeling good is good and feeling bad is bad.
>"The reality of objective value is a non-negotiable data-point and we are
entitled to make whatever postulations are required to account for it."
'kay then.
~~~
TeMPOraL
Yeah, doesn't make sense.
I prefer a simpler argument for why there is a subset of morality that's
universal for (vast majority of) humans: argument from shared brain
architecture.
We're essentially running the same wetware under the hood, at least on the
time scales of human civilization. So while the universe doesn't necessarily
privilege a set of values, _human brains are_. And that's all that really
matters (until we meet aliens or start building conscious AIs) - conscious
experience is a feature of brains, not laws of physics in general.
~~~
roenxi
There is an even simpler explanation: some moral principles push people
towards a game-theoretic optimum, so evolution selects for it.
Eg, a society that allows random murders will be at a staggering disadvantage.
By magic, most (all?) societies have strong moral arguments against murder.
Ditto honesty - honest societies have structural advantages.
Any cooperative species will have something that looks like morality. Even
ants practice first aid.
~~~
bobthechef
"Optimum" is a moral notion. You're begging the question.
~~~
mannykannot
I don't think so. In this view, the concepts of what constitutes ethical
behavior have arisen from individuals coming to understand what sort of
society is most likely to give the best outcome according to their own long-
term self interest. This is no more begging the question than the concept of
survival of the fittest in theories of evolution, the point being that there
is a coherent concept of fitness in that case, and self-interest in this one.
In both cases, the question being addressed is "how did we arrive at the
current state of affairs, when other outcomes are at least logically
possible?"
------
fenomas
> But the problem for .. anyone who tries to ground moral truth in the natural
> world, is that moral truths, like mathematical truths, are _necessarily_
> true, which means that it’s impossible for them to be false.
What a bizarre argument. Mathematical truths are _defined_ to be true --
entirely the opposite of what the author is trying to claim about moral
truths, so this is about as absurd a comparison as one could make.
I'm no expert but this article reads to me like hand-waving psychobabble.
~~~
MaxBarraclough
> Mathematical truths are _defined_ to be true
Perhaps a nitpick, but: _axioms_ are defined to be true. Mathematics, roughly
speaking, is the business of exploring the consequences of chosen sets of
axioms. Sometimes published mathematical theorems turn out to be wrong.
~~~
jjgreen
Do you think? I'd say that axioms were just taken; there's no commitment to
their truth (since there is no need for it, and mathematics likes economy).
~~~
amelius
It also doesn't make sense to define axioms as true. What if later it turns
out that the axioms were a mutual contradiction?
~~~
jjgreen
Truth is tricky. If I state "The sky is blue", I can look out of the window,
the sky _is_ blue, my statement corresponds to the state of the world, my
statement is true, right? But in mathematics there is no window, everything is
internal, abstract, so what does "truth" mean when there is no state of the
world with which to compare? More importantly, would the mathematics be any
different if the axioms are declared to be true? No, it wouldn't make any
difference at all. So let's leave "truth" to the physicists and philosophers.
~~~
ukj
That's the first error of the objectivists. Mistaking "blue" as a property of
the sky.
Color happens in your head.
That is why trichromacy, tetrachromacy, pentachromacy, dodecachromacy etc. is
a thing.
------
keiferski
Panpsychism is a pretty interesting idea, but this article does a poor job of
explaining it and then making its own moral argument. I'd say skip the article
and read this instead:
[https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/panpsychism/](https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/panpsychism/)
One line of argument for panpsychism that I don't often see mentioned is that
humans/animals assume that we're the only form of consciousness in the
universe. This strikes me as rather myopic, at least as a baseline assumption.
It seems like the starting point should be _assume that other bodies in the
universe are constituted in similar ways_ and not _animals on Earth are
exceptionally, unexplainably unique._
------
BlueTemplar
I am a believer in a form of panspsychism myself, but this article is
baffling.
> But the problem for neo-Aristotelians, or indeed anyone who tries to ground
> moral truth in the natural world, is that moral truths, like mathematical
> truths, are necessarily true, which means that it’s impossible for them to
> be false.
The author completely fails to prove why that is the case, not to mention that
this isn't even true for Mathematics either, depending on your starting
axioms...
------
Drakim
Here is my take:
All knowledge is ultimately based on assumptions, and those assumptions
ultimately hang in thin air. We rely on our senses to observe the world around
us, and we rely on our mental faculties to interpenetrate what we observe. But
we have no way of knowing if our senses, and our mental faculties, can be
trusted, if they are accurate to some objective reality.
It might very well be that what we take in from our surroundings and
environment isn't an "objective reality", but an incredibly twisted and
mangled version which is has more falsehoods, inaccuracies and errors, than
any truths. To say that the sky is blue is an incredibly "human" observation,
which relies on our eyes having divided the light spectrum into arbitrary
ranges we call colors. There is no grounding to distinct colors, other than
what our eyes and brain arbitrarily imposes to make sense of what it's taking
in. It's a clever, but arbitrary, way to look at the light spectrum.
But we do the best with what we have, there is no point in wallowing in pity,
we simply work with the tools we are given. Now, even if we cannot justify it,
it does appear to us that murder is morally wrong. We are repulsed by it, we
wish to avoid it, we want to minimize it, we label those who do it as being
flawed and broken, and we have all sorts of theories and ideas about how
murder doesn't fit in with how human life operates.
Even though I cannot point you to any objective anchoring as to why murder is
wrong, I can neither point you to any objective anchoring for anything. I
cannot prove that what I see, touch, feel, smell and hear is really there, nor
that what I am observing is in any way accurate. Even the most basic
mathematical facts are suspect, if you can't verify the mental faculties
behind it.
So why reject the moral facts I cannot verify, but accept the observable,
evidential, mathematical facts that I cannot verify? Who gets to choose which
ones gets a pass? I think murder is wrong for the same reason I think the sky
is blue: because that's what my senses, body and mind tells me.
~~~
lhorie
Consider that even murder isn't universally considered bad. Examples include
wars, self defense, proponents of the death penalty, the sentinelese, etc.
Debates can get particularly heated when one gets into things like abortion
and ethical dilemmas.
As for the dichotomy of logical verification given our meat-based fallible
physical medium, I'm reminded of Godel's incompleteness theory, i.e. that it
is possible for a set of axioms to be internally consistent (e.g. basic
algebra), yet we can construct a meta set of axioms to demonstrate that it is
impossible to mathematically prove every truth therein.
~~~
Drakim
True enough, but even so, in these examples you mentioned, war, self defense,
death penalty, people struggle a lot with being mentally harmed by taking
lives. I read somewhere that Nazi Germany moved to gassing those they
persecuted rather than simply killing them by firing squad because the firing
squads couldn't handle it day in and day out. The majority of mankind abhors
murder, and has to invent elaborate methods and rules to avoid facing the
brute reality of it, even when they say that it's good.
My point is just that to me, and my society as a whole, murder is seen as
something bad, as a simple and obvious fact, a safe assumption. If somebody
wants to tell me that assumption is wrong and should be removed, I want to see
what sort of stuff their assumptions are built out of to justify such
confidence.
~~~
matz1
Because not everyone think the same. We are not machine where everyone run the
same software. Some people like chocolate, some people hate chocolate.
Likewise some people think murder is good, some people think its bad.
~~~
Drakim
Humans are not a chaotic collection of random emotions and opinions. You'll
find that those who like to eat dirt and murder others are far outnumbered by
those who like chocolate and want to live in harmony.
~~~
matz1
Maybe outnumbered but still exists and still human.
------
donatj
Right off the bat it fails epicly in its comparison of Gandhi to Epstein as
bastions of good and evil, as apparently the author is completely unaware of
Gandhi’s sleeping with children? What a horrible choice for the side of good,
given Epstein’s horrendous misdeeds.
What a horribly written horribly reasoned article. Very frustrating to read.
> But if Reality is itself a very general form of consciousness, and my
> consciousness is a specific form of that general form of consciousness, it
> follows that Reality is present within my consciousness.
No it doesn’t follow. You are fully capable of experiencing things that are
not reality. That’s just poor reasoning.
I work hard to keep my tone online positive but this article is simply
religion presenting itself as science, and it enrages me.
~~~
titzer
I share your disdain.
Half the people talking about panpsychism are just bloviating in-between hits
on DMT and are hoping to achieve Nirvana and merge with some Jungian
collective unconscious, but are usually completely ignorant of that entire
concept.
Panpsychism doesn't mean everything and everywhere is tripping on acid having
a great time. Panpsychism is actually kind of terrifying; just think about
what it must feel like to be one of a trillion trillion trillion hydrogen
atoms suddenly recruited into a massive supernova and then drifting alone for
5 billion years and being washed through the entirety of life's evolution on
Earth, taking part in a trillion different DNA molecules and cell walls; not
having any clue about what you've been a part of or why. Being a horrible-
looking blood-sucking mosquito downed by a bug-eyed frog, munched on by a
croc, farted out a horse...or frozen into a granite hunk in the dark bowels of
the Earth for eternity. No, panpsychism doesn't mean your preference for the
Yankees over the Mets are somehow the moral code of the universe, or that damn
squirrel with a twinkle in its eye is the manifestation of the all-knowing
god, you fool (author).
~~~
pas
> just think about what it must feel like to be one of a trillion trillion
> trillion hydrogen atoms [...]
Usually the models of Panpsychism have a spectrum of consciousness and
associate complexity of the thing with consciousness. So sure, let's say atoms
have some consciousness, they have as much as is seen by a first look, that is
their behavior and intelligence shows it, and it's not much, basically zero. A
rock probably has more. It probably has rock-like consciousness, it has rock-
behavior and rock-thoughts. It probably likes being a nice rock, hosting all
those crystals, flowing through places sometimes slowly, sometimes flying off
from a volcano, sometimes dissolving in a melting pool, merging with other
rocks' rock-consciousness. Of course there are grumpy rocks too, just like
there are many kinds of humans. And so on.
------
qubex
“ _Arguemnt by analogy is very powerful and entirely fallacious._ ” —Mr
Dawson, my teacher of _Theory of Knowledge_ (epistemology and critical
thinking), circa 1997
So... there is this guy, who has an opinion... okay... and?
------
wcerfgba
> It might be nice to think that the universe has an inherent moral direction,
> but do we have any evidence that it does? And if we lack good evidence for
> these claims, surely respect for Occam’s razor ought to stop us from
> accepting them? This objection, though, is jam-packed with value-claims: It
> claims what we “ought” to believe and references “good” evidence. The very
> challenge pre-supposes the reality of value.
So in attempting to provide evidence for his claims, Goff creates a weak
framing for the necessity of evidence and then attacks the framing?
~~~
hashkb
Yes, this is where he finally lost me.
------
motohagiography
There is an argument for theism that I find very persuasive, which is that,
faith is a ridiculous conclusion but a necessary axiom. The point being it's
not something you arrive at through reason after ruling out the alternatives,
it's just a point you start at, or not.
It's not an artifact of reason, but it's the other way around, where we can
only reason about the things the theistic object of faith has caused. (or even
just deistic).
Without too much woo, I'm less circumspect about these beliefs, and think we
all believe what we respectively perceive we need to. However, something
curious I think I may have discovered is that both faith and fear cannot be
experienced simultaneously. If this were true, and fear was just an
interpretation of an emergent chemical/biological artifact of life in the
universe, it implies that something which necessarily extinguished it could
also be just as real.
On the question of what is more absurd, belief in the existence of a
superbeing we cannot conceive of yet whose will we can somehow divine, or that
our reasoning is sufficient to rule out the existence of such a being, if you
have ever tried to argue with a dog or a horse or even a baby, the limits of
the latter case seem too stark to provide much confidence in their powers.
------
tasty_freeze
I tried reading "Mere Christianity" by CS Lewis on the strong recommendation
of a friend.
Its core claim is that while many of our ideals of morality shift over time,
some are absolute and transcend place and time, and therefore they must have
been created by something outside of the universe. That claim occupies only
the first few pages, and from there he attempts to further conclude that not
only is there something, it is specifically the Christian god.
~~~
Sebb767
> some are absolute and transcend place and time
Which ones? I honestly can't think of any of the top of my head for which I
wouldn't know a civilization which didn't honor them.
------
mirekrusin
"(...) consciousness pervades the universe and is a fundamental feature of it
(...)". I'm not sure if it means much. It's like saying that spheres prevade
universe. Great, now what? Is cat hunting little bird good or bad? Depends who
you ask. Consciousness and forms of life in general are recursions where
emergent memory and prediction qualifies it on the wide spectrum of
sophistication. Natural selection creates unhappy "recursions" from the moment
when one eats the other and discovers it gives great energy boost. Feeling
pain/pleasure is emergent feature shaped by natural selection. But there is
nothing fundamental about it that says good predictors must have it.
Evaluating options on more global scale move you closer to more global
rights/wrongs, that's all.
------
danidiaz
Bart Streumer is mentioned in the piece. His book "Unbelievable Errors: An
Error Theory about All Normative Judgements" begins with a pretty cool
sentence:
> You cannot believe the view I will defend in this book. I therefore will not
> be able to convince you that this view is true.
~~~
keiferski
Honestly not a bad approach. I wish more people just shared their ideas
instead of trying to persuade and convert me to their position.
~~~
manofmanysmiles
How can you really understand someone’s ideas without understanding all the
premises?
Isn’t it necessary for then to try to “convince” you insofar as just stating a
conclusion without supporting arguments is no different than stating an
opinion?
Or put a different way, why would you ever desire to hear opinions without
trying to understand them or establish their truth?
~~~
keiferski
Not sure how you get this from the quote. I meant that I prefer it when the
mood of a book is _this is interesting /beautiful/insightful_ and not _this is
my conclusion, now I’m going to construct an argument to convince you it’s the
right one._
~~~
manofmanysmiles
I think my reaction stemmed from
> You cannot believe the view I will defend in this book. I therefore will not
> be able to convince you that this view is true.
This appears as a concession that the truth about the topic cannot be
determined. In which case, from a philosophical point of view, what’s the
point?
That being said, I often prefer the presentation of “Here are some interesting
things I’ve observed and thoughts I’ve had. Do what you will with them.”
------
ikeboy
>This objection, though, is jam-packed with value-claims: It claims what we
“ought” to believe and references “good” evidence. The very challenge pre-
supposes the reality of value.
There's no reason those terms need to be taken as objective. They're as
socially constructed as the rest of science and philosophy. We ought to
believe things with good evidence because that's what our scientific culture
values.
If another culture didn't value that, we'd pity them for being less effective
at their goals - it turns out that updating beliefs on evidence makes you more
effective. But there's no _objective_ more sense in which they're "bad",
they're just less effective.
------
dredmorbius
Grounding a discussion of universal morality in Greek philosophy as a basis
for condemning Jeffrey Epstein is a remarkable excercise at ignoring the
elephant in the room.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pederasty_in_ancient_Greece](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pederasty_in_ancient_Greece)
(This is _not_ a defence of Epstein but a criticism of the article's argument
and coherence.)
------
aaanotherhnfolk
I have only a layman's grasp of philosophy. Why doesn't this field challenge
its definitions of consciousness more, and why is ethics treated as an axiom?
These both seem like anthropocentric positions to me, limiting the discourse.
Why can't trees have a conscious experience? And who cares about the morality
of a storm cloud?
------
bobthechef
"We cannot account for necessary truths in terms of things that could have
been different. To take Aristotle’s view: We might have evolved to have
natures directed toward cruelty. In such a counterfactual scenario, we would
have moral grounds for cruelty, which runs counter to our deepest moral
convictions. Any view which tries to ground moral truth in things that might
have been different is going to face a similar problem. There will be some
counterfactual scenario in which the putative ground of morality is absent or
points us toward evil rather than the good."
What is cruelty? He's just juxtaposing abstract "cruelty" with some
unspecified hypothetical and assumes it is meaningful. Cruelty presumes
opposition to nature, so it makes no sense to say that some act A, understood
in the abstract, is cruel.
"Different statues are made of different clay; on the container view in
contrast, everything that does, or could, exist is a manifestation of the same
Reality."
Prima facie, sounds like a vulgarization of God-as-Being, i.e., all things
exist as potentially existing in relation to actually existing things, and
actually existing things are like potential things in relation to the act of
existence that causes them to be, which is God.
"If we follow Aristotle in grounding moral truth in the goal-directed nature
of human beings, then we fail to account for the necessity of moral truths."
The aim was never necessity but nature. The natural law is called thus for a
reason. I don't know what "good" or "bad" is apart from the nature of a thing.
"My proposal is that the inherently directed nature of Reality entails that
it’s objectively good for Reality when it manifests as pleasure and
objectively bad for Reality when it manifests as pain."
He's elevating the world of plural substances to the level of a single
substance and referring to it as Reality. But this does nothing to convert the
natural moral law into the necessary moral law because you've just reduced the
universe to one thing whose nature is such that such-and-such is good for it
and such-and-such is not. To accomplish that kind of necessity, he would have
to identity nature with necessity and that would require identifying what he
called "Reality" with God. If Reality is God, then this is pantheism. But why
this need to posit necessity?
"Foundational theories of morality have been locked in a perennial tug of war
between the supernaturalism of Plato and the naturalism of his opponents."
Has he explored Thomism? Forms exist only in things and the mind, but also in
God. Thus, you have both access to moral truths by knowing the natures of
things, but even with the destruction of those things, they continue to exist
in God (even if we may not be able to know them). Also, it is bad for human
beings to harm others at least because it harms the common good and thus their
own good. It is against our own natures to do so.
------
Kees_Veel
This part of the universe, me, knows that the article is wrong. So yes. But
the same part of the universe also knows that the rest doesn't know shit. No
evidence required, you can trust me, I'm from the universe.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
JavaScript Training Sucks - sync
https://medium.com/javascript-scene/javascript-training-sucks-284b53666245
======
mattdesl
Yup, education could definitely improve.
Something else I would really like to see added to curriculums is a focus on
npm and modularity. Even just the basics like semver, common unit testing
practices, etc.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Everything that causes gentrification, from A to Z - jseliger
http://cityobservatory.org/everything-that-causes-gentrification-from-a-to-z/
======
externalreality
> gentrification, which is loosely defined as somebody not like you moving
> into your neighborhood.
I would say gentrification is the act of displacing poor people for homes that
their family lived in for many years, to make way for wealthier white
individuals who would like to live in that area.
In a town I lived in a company was made to clean a river and surrounding
streams after years of pollution and abuse. The company did a very nice job.
Now this town had a bunch of beautiful water front property. Immediately the
minorities in the neighborhood were drummed out. It was very sad to see
because I knew many of them for years, my sister's (now husband) was from that
area, and now they are mostly gone. No body stepped in to protect them. Even
the Chinese food store, with the lady that would give me extra candies when I
would go there as kid, is gone. I would be gone too, if I didn't live across
the bridge in the wealthier area.
Gentrification isn't just "people moving in", its the destruction of the way
of life of poor, simply because the wealthy found something they like.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Password Live - DatastreamRider
http://passwordlive.github.io
======
mingabunga
Nice one. I always found password managers a bit annoying to use, so this is a
great alternative
~~~
thirsteh
The idea is admirable, but it's a really bad alternative to having unique,
random passwords for each site. With this, it's trivial to recover all other
passwords if you know just one of them.
~~~
aba_sababa
As opposed to a password manager, where it's trivial to know every password
within if you know the master password?
~~~
thirsteh
Well, the difference is that if I compromise any of the sites you use, I now
know all your passwords. If I compromise any of the sites you use when you use
a password manager properly, I'll only know one password that'll be fairly
useless to me.
~~~
aba_sababa
Compromising one of these passwords does not at all mean that all the other
passwords are compromised. You can't figure out the original master password
from a hashed, compromised password.
~~~
thirsteh
Yes, you can. To understand why, compare:
This:
'facebook' + 'mypassword'
'twitter' + 'mypassword'
'foursquare' + 'mypassword'
Password manager with unique passwords:
'mSX32ZyKZXptY3E'
'33RiKbc3n6sA6IY'
'4kGzFtWDd0rnti6'
All I have to do is figure out what you named the site that I compromised,
then do exactly what I'd usually do to recover your password, and, voila, I
can now access all sites you use it for. Compare this to the password manager
example where each password has been generated at random--one password
communicates no information whatsoever about the other.
~~~
aba_sababa
Ok, so you know that "facebook" is part of the original hash. Not following
how you can also derive "mypassword" from it. If you have a good strong master
password, rainbow tables won't be able to crack the hash.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Path - API Documentation - _pius
https://path.com/developers#intro
======
czottmann
Hooray, a mostly write-only API for Path. Good thing to know I still can put
my data in but not get it out later on.
Meanwhile, on their help/support site:
> 0 results found for "export"
About 2 years ago, I asked for an export of a few data sets I had created in
their app. I stopped waiting for a meaningful reply roughly a month later.
Which is a shame because Path in itself is actually very nice.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Scientists Warn of Perilous Climate Shift Within Decades, Not Centuries - Osiris30
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/03/23/science/global-warming-sea-level-carbon-dioxide-emissions.html
======
drallison
Finally out of draft and published in an archival journal. If the authors are
right (likely IMHO) it's scary stuff. The paper can be found at
[http://www.atmos-chem-
phys.net/16/3761/2016/acp-16-3761-2016...](http://www.atmos-chem-
phys.net/16/3761/2016/acp-16-3761-2016.pdf;) the associated DOI is
doi:10.5194/acp-16-3761-2016.
------
retrogradeorbit
When I was at school in the 80s, people were saying this. They've been saying
this every decade since. I just don't believe it anymore. It's like the boy
who cried wolf. Not that that's a good thing. Didn't the wolf eat all the
sheep in the end?
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Seneca on the proper use of time - antman
http://reasonandmeaning.com/2015/03/04/seneca-on-the-proper-use-of-time/
======
whysonot
Reminds me of the popular Steve Jobs quote about death and decision-making:
> Remembering that I’ll be dead soon is the most important tool I’ve ever
> encountered to help me make the big choices in life. Because almost
> everything—all external expectations, all pride, all fear of embarrassment
> or failure—these things just fall away in the face of death, leaving what is
> truly important
The Dalai Lama too:
> Half of our lives we spend asleep. The first ten years we are merely
> children, and after twenty we begin to grow old. Meanwhile, our time is
> taken up with suffering, anxiety, fighting, sickness, and so forth, all of
> which limit our ability to practice
~~~
NhanH
It's interesting that the Dalai Lama stated "after twenty we begin to grow
old" \-- for the majority of us, that seems to be when life barely begins
itself.
~~~
bhrgunatha
Perhaps he's being more literal and he means (roughly) peak physical maturity.
Although I've read different estimates - I seem to remember people mention
somewhere in the 20s for when your body has completed it's full physical
growth cycle.
------
Mz
I rather like this line:
_You are arranging what lies in Fortune’s control, and abandoning what lies
in yours. What are you looking at? To what goal are you straining? The whole
future lies in uncertainty: live immediately._
A lot of the rest seems like self-contradictory mumbo jumbo -- which may just
mean that I don't understand it. But it both implores you to spend your time
on that which is important and also dismisses having material ambition. There
are good points to such ideas, but, bereft of context, it really tells me
nothing.
Since we are just dancing on this earth for a short time, what is wrong with
taking some time to enjoy life, to smell the roses? If we prefer that to
seeking great accomplishments and we are all just dust in the wind, we can
decide which we prefer, can we not?
(Edit: And now my own comment doesn't make sense, because I can't make sense
of what Seneca wrote. What "great accomplishments" does he value? He seems to
simultaneously implore people to be ambitious workaholics and lambaste them
for the same.)
Edit #2: If it makes any difference to how people interpret my above remarks:
I spent about a year at death's door. I am nearly 50 years old and have a
condition with a life-expectancy in the 30's. I have been living under
sentence of death a long time. If you don't enjoy life at least a little here
and there, if it is nothing but unremitting misery, seriously, give me death.
~~~
Frondo
Elsewhere in Seneca's writing, it's a bit clearer what he means:
Pursue wisdom. Learn not just for learning's sake, but so that you can elevate
mankind just a little higher by having lived.
~~~
Mz
Thank you.
Perhaps a mistake to say it, but, I mean, in the grand scheme of things, it's
all just a simulation in 4d anyway. At some point, the universe implodes back
upon itself and everything will be gone. So, ultimately, it kind of doesn't
actually matter one way or the other.
Which means we can kind of do what we want, decide what we most value, if we
so choose.
I do the things I do because a) "Everyone needs a vocation" (if you have read
the play _The importance of being Earnest_ , you might understand that to mean
"We all have to keep ourselves occupied somehow between now and the time we
die", which is how I mean it) and b) while I see no particular moral
imperative to "elevate mankind," it's fun to work on solving hard problems and
work on opening up opportunities that can't exist without that "elevation."
More complex things emerge from less complex underpinnings and then things can
get interesting.
I have to be here anyway (unless I commit suicide). Might as well spend that
time doing interesting things that I feel okay about. Because while my body is
dust in the wind and, someday, even this solar system will no doubt be dust in
some galactic wind, my quality of life -- my experience of it -- matters to
me. And a lot of that stuff that people call "wisdom" or "virtue" has a proven
track record of improving my own contentment.
/talking in public before lunch, usually a mistake
------
mikro2nd
Aside from the obvious benefits of this perspective to bring clarity in
deciding what you work on each day, each week, each hour, it also brings to me
a strong sense of respect for other peoples' time.
I strive, for this very reason, to always be on time for meetings. If I say
I'll see you at the coffee shop at 10:30, I'll be there at or before 10:30,
barring any unanticipatable derailments. It doesn't pay to get obsessive about
it, but such time consciousness fosters a respect for the other person's
death. A good way to piss me off is to be persistently careless with meeting
times; you're showing a marked disrespect for my time/death. And your own.
Being aware of death also helps me maintain quality, precision and focus when
dealing with groups of people: I was always very aware of "other peoples'
time" when addressing groups (sometimes large groups) of people in the forms
of teaching and speaking at conferences. The awareness that, for each second
of _my_ time "spent", I am being granted the amazing gift of tens, hundreds or
even thousands of seconds of everybody else's time. To me a humbling thought
that always helped me get my own damn ego out of the way and focus on adding
quality/value to the content of whatever I was trying to deliver.
------
Yhippa
The stuff about mentorship is gold. I wish there were efficient ways to
connect mentors and mentees. The last chance I had to have a mentor was at a
big corporation but the focus seemed to be heavily favored towards being
successful at that company, not the career I wanted. I didn't have a good way
of finding a mentor so I took what was available to me which was still
helpful.
Sometimes I feel that the Internet can be a mentor of sorts. There is a whole
source of blogs and advice out there. Maybe that could be a substitute if you
don't have the connections to find a mentor. The most difficult thing about
that by far is separating the wheat from the chaff.
------
hownottowrite
When this topic comes up, I always recommend Man's Search for Meaning by
Viktor Frankl: [http://www.amazon.com/Mans-Search-Meaning-Viktor-
Frankl/dp/0...](http://www.amazon.com/Mans-Search-Meaning-Viktor-
Frankl/dp/080701429X)
------
doctorstupid
Seneca warns against the perils of indulging in heedless luxury, and yet
according to Dio, he at one point ordered “five hundred tables of citrus wood
with legs of ivory, all identically alike, and he served banquets on them.”
------
michaelsbradley
Good stuff! It made me recall one of my favorite sermons from St. Josemaría
Escrivá:
_Time is a Treasure_
[http://www.escrivaworks.org/book/friends_of_god-
chapter-3.ht...](http://www.escrivaworks.org/book/friends_of_god-
chapter-3.htm)
------
snikeris
Time is an illusory phenomenon that arises due to memory.
~~~
guelo
So that leads to, if we could inject memories we could live more than a
lifetime's worth. Or maybe accessing others' memories via stories, (reading,
movies, etc.) adds to our store of memories and makes our lives richer.
But this is assuming that having the most memories at the end is the goal of
life. But your memories are also gone when you die.
The only thing that remains after you die are memories in others' minds about
you. The bigger your achievements the longer the memories about you will last
in the collective mind. Maybe that's a better life goal.
~~~
meric
I find I enjoy learning more than knowing. I would think voluntarily to become
a like a child and learn again might be enjoyable. Your mind is a memory
basket whose purpose is to experience life. Is it more useful at this purpose
being full, or empty?
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
SpaceX’s first astronaut mission could take off in May - ajaviaad
https://techcrunch.com/2020/02/10/spacexs-first-astronaut-mission-could-take-off-in-may/
======
dang
This is an announcement of the possibility of an announcement, which is one
level of indirection beyond an announcement of an announcement, which is
already off topic. On HN there's no harm in waiting for a thing to actually be
announced, or rather to actually happen, at which point there will be
something new to discuss.
[https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...](https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=%22announcement%20of%20an%20announcement%22&sort=byDate&type=comment)
[https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...](https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=%22no%20harm%20in%20waiting%22&sort=byDate&type=comment)
------
rtkwe
That's exciting. It'll be nice for NASA I'm sure to finally gain independence
from the Soyuz launch schedule and the 1 Russian member that always comes with
that, letting them rotate crews more easily. Maybe with more craft we could
see an inflatable expansion to the station for more crew berths.
~~~
TaylorAlexander
Perhaps, but it won’t be Bigelow Aerospace: [https://spacenews.com/bigelow-
aerospace-sets-sights-on-free-...](https://spacenews.com/bigelow-aerospace-
sets-sights-on-free-flying-station-after-passing-on-iss-commercial-module/)
Looks like this company may do it though:
[https://spaceflightnow.com/2020/01/28/axiom-wins-nasa-
approv...](https://spaceflightnow.com/2020/01/28/axiom-wins-nasa-approval-to-
attach-commercial-habitat-to-space-station/)
~~~
rtkwe
Bigelow has always seemed like it was on the edge of collapsing. It'd be
interesting to see them actually get their large station launched, I'd love
for their to be a commercial alternative if only for there to be less pressure
to commercialize the ISS. (An endeavor I think is doomed, there's not enough
actual use for it yet that isn't satisfied by the national lab model)
------
jp42
Success of this will changes a lot of things. USA regaining capability to put
humans in orbit. Space proving private companies can safely take humans to
space. And overall government's & public's confidence in Spacex for building
Starship & possibly providing meaningful transportation infrastructure for
Mars colonization.
------
tectonic
It's very likely to slip further before it actually happens. My money's on
June or July.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
Great online curation of systems papers - jsr
https://www.systemswemake.com
======
wmf
It's probably not wise to link to the HTTPS version when it has a broken
certificate.
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
New Mobile Safari stuff in iOS5 - franksvalli
http://davidbcalhoun.com/2011/new-mobile-safari-stuff-in-ios5-position-fixed-overflow-scroll-new-input-type-support-web-workers-ecmascript-5
======
sant0sk1
I'm very disappointed that you still can't upload files in Mobile Safari. I
"get" the whole no filesystem thing, but come on at least show the photo/video
picker.
Little impossibilities like this make mobile web apps perpetually less useful
than native apps, and that sucks.
~~~
SoftwareMaven
Use a different browser. iCab Mobile supports uploading, downloading, and
side-loading to DropBox or iDisk. The only time I use Safari is when I clock a
link in Mail or Twitter or some other client; otherwise, I use iCab almost
exclusively.
~~~
joelackner
while i use icab 99% of the time, i've hit a few limits. first off, not being
able to set it as a default browser is frustrating. secondly, i've found a few
rendering differences between it and safari: onswipe (the tablet theme
powering wordpress.com blogs) and google font api being the two biggest ones
i've ran into recently.
~~~
SoftwareMaven
Jailbreaking will take care of the first issue (can't wait to jailbreak my
iPad...).
I agree that there are some issues with it (it crashes frequently enough that
I care), but, overall, I've found, overall, it is much better.
Features I use daily:
* Pinboard current page
* ReadItLater current page
* Readability
* Side-load to DropBox to pick up on my Mac
* Youtube inside the browser
* Ad filters
And so on...
------
bergie
No word of whether activating a contentEditable now opens the keyboard. That'd
be a big step for lots of content-focused web apps
~~~
ComputerGuru
Give me a sample URI and I'll check it for you. Or wait until I have the time
to write up a naive example.
~~~
bergie
Try <http://aloha-editor.org/>
~~~
SoftwareMaven
Too bad they can't be bothered to put any pricing information online. I have a
project that needs an editor, it looks really good, AGPL is not even kind of
an option, and I'm willing to pay for a license. But heck if I want to deal
with "contacting" somebody to start thinking if it's worth looking at.
~~~
bergie
There is a bunch of other contentEditable implementations you may want to look
at, many of them under a permissive open source license:
<https://github.com/alohaeditor/Aloha-Editor/issues/121>
BTW, the Aloha devs are willing to give exceptions to AGPL at least to open
source projects.
------
swix
If no one gets before me ill verify today if Nitro is running in WebView /
Fullscreen webapps, I would also like to check if webgl is working now but
can't check right now, at work.
Great news that webworkers are "working" :)
I'm sure we'll also get an update from Phoboslab and impactjs if there are any
significant performance gains elsewhere for html5 graphics.
------
Aloisius
Man I hope the datetime picker allows masks/filters. I'd like to limit minutes
to say, every half an hour.
~~~
smackfu
Here is the spec: [http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-
work/multipage/...](http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-
work/multipage/states-of-the-type-attribute.html#date-and-time-state)
There is a step attribute. I don't know if they implemented that.
------
mmuro
position:fixed is the most welcome addition.
------
hmahncke
Any word on adequate html5/javascript sound support; e.g., does the demo at
[http://www.schillmania.com/projects/soundmanager2/demo/chris...](http://www.schillmania.com/projects/soundmanager2/demo/christmas-
lights/) work better than iOS4 (where the lag is huge)?
------
calmmie
Guy I just found a web browser does flash page without paying monthly fees.
Puffin browser!! Check it out
| {
"pile_set_name": "HackerNews"
} |
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