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"I road cycled for years, I always followed the street rules. Always. Red light means red light. \nI have so many cycling friends who get into accidents and other conflicts with drivers, and yet they think it’s stupid to stop at a red light. They just don’t connect these two things",
">\n\nMost bikers I encounter are complete idiots. Like I'd be driving normally and out of nowhere comes a biker on a crosswalk in full speed. Now, I appreciate bikers who actually stop and make eye contact with me as I'm driving towards the crosswalk but man, it's either that or the biker almost dies because I have no time to brake.\nAnd what's up with all the bikers going like 5 kmh IN THE MIDDLE of a road when there's a dedicated sidewalk for bikers right next to them? Drives me insane.",
">\n\nIt seems like most bikers because of observation bias.\nIf you follow the rules as you should, you’re unmemorable.\nAs for the sidewalks - its actually less safe on the sidewalk.",
">\n\nInteresting. Dangerous situations are more valuable to remember, and I remember tons of irresponsible bikers. It is in fact observation bias. But I'm always happy to see those who pay close attention to traffic, and I do remeber some of them aswell.",
">\n\nWell the same goes for driving. How many cars do you remember when they haven’t done anything? But you tend to remember the ones who do something dumb",
">\n\nYeah it can be applied to anything really.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist in one of the most bike-dense cities in the world, I hate cyclists too. If I could avoid getting myself hurt, I’d be ramming at least ten of them a day just to teach a lesson about ignoring rules and common sense.",
">\n\nAmsterdam? Copenhagen?",
">\n\nCopenhagen. It’s a wonderful bike city but the people are incredibly self-centered.",
">\n\nI had high expectations from cyclists when I first visited the city, after all it is heralded as a cycling paradise and, well, let’s say it looked a lot more like the rest of the world and mainly because of the personal behavior of cyclists.\nMy local friend justified it, stating that it’s because danish are more temperamental than all other Scandinavians: an explanation that I really didn’t know what to do with…",
">\n\nIf “temperamental” means “a bunch of egotistical [insert unflattering body part]”, he’s right.",
">\n\nYou make it sound like a war zone. I live in Copenhagen and most of the time biking around the city is very pleasant. Except for the food delivery scooters, they can 🤬 off.",
">\n\nI guess it depends on how often and where you’re going. If you have places to be each and every day and want to get there effectively, people ignoring general rules and courtesies of the road are a pain. If you’re one of the types listening to podcasts with a latte in one hand and a phone in the other just trudging along, it’s probably fine.",
">\n\nSame! I love walking. Where I live on popular trails, there are bike lanes, but the cyclists will just ride wherever they. They don’t care and won’t let you know they’re coming. They’ll get pissy if you don’t just automatically know they’re coming up from behind you. If you do much as step foot in the bike lane, they get mad, but have no problems riding side by side outside the bike lane.",
">\n\nSame here! So much for my pleasant walk on the beautiful Trail. They sneak up and when they're almost on top of me, a loud voice yells \"On your left!\" They startle the shit out of me and cause me to jump sky high! 😡",
">\n\nIt’s literally the law to say that. This thread is all about hating them no matter if they follow the law or not.",
">\n\nIs it possible to do that without sneaking up on them and startling the shit out of them by yelling real loud? And then cutting is close to them as you possibly can without hitting them?",
">\n\nHello. \nMy useless comment to this post is here :D\nSo, i work in the accidents department of a big insurance company. My country is very strickt about the road rules, meaning:\nOur company estimates (is this the right word?) that around 82% of accidents involving cyclists, are to blame on the cyclist. Since there are expecific places on the road for you to ride your bike, even if it's not a bike lane.\nI remember a case where 3 dudes were just cycling, outside of town and they were literally on the middle of the road. the place where they were is full of curves and has very little visibility, so they were riding side by side, middle of the road, comes a car, hits not one, but the 3 of them because they scared the person and she just swerved the car.\nThey sued her and us (insurance) 2 times. Lost both and had to pay for all damage done on the car by their own bodys",
">\n\nThis sounds like something that happened near by my home town, are you in Ontario?",
">\n\nno XD portugal",
">\n\nGod its so much worse that it's happened in multiple places.\nIn ours I think the driver killed one of the cyclists, then sued the family for emotional damage",
">\n\nMy biggest gripe about cyclists is that there is always some danger when you encounter them on the road, either as a pedestrian or motorist. Now, part of it isn’t their fault. At least here in the US, not much of the infrastructure is made for bicycles. But cyclists are constantly breaking the rules of the road (or sidewalk) to get where they’re going faster. Blowing red lights, leaving the bike lane to use the sidewalk, splitting lanes. I always clench a little when I approach one, wondering if this is the day I can’t get out of the way.",
">\n\nWe have that same problem, but then a million times worse, because I live in The Netherlands. You probably know about our proud cycling culture (the Amsterdam stereotype). And yes, cyclists here are just as bad as the ones you describe, but there’s a lot more of them here. And oh yeah, traffic laws are almost always in their favor.",
">\n\nI found driving in the towns of the Netherlands so hard. Not just because I was on the wrong side of the road 😉 but because I just wasn’t used to sooo many cyclists coming from all directions, always faster than me and passing on both sides. Even as I was signalling to leave a roundabout at one point about three cyclists rode past on the inside. I really struggled to keep up with them all, which of course means I drove slower and thus even more bikes passed me!",
">\n\nYes that is of course very difficult, however as a Dutchman I’m used to cyclists, so of course we struggle a lot less. But that doesn’t take away from the fact that cyclists do cause a lot of issues because of their careless behavior, and because as drivers we have to accommodate them. That one sided ‘deal’ that we have makes it very difficult to deal with them.\nAll in all I’m happy we have so many cyclists as it’s good for the environment. But the utopian mindset of cyclists being a gift to the world is just stupid. Especially when you consider that mostly Americans who drive on wide open roads with barely any cyclists around are the ones praising cyclists in my country all the time. Also, cyclists annoy the hell out of pedestrians as well, so it’s not just about motorists.",
">\n\nCyclists treat red lights like stop signs and stop signs like yield signs (at best). They’re not allowed on sidewalks but do it anyway. Fuckin hate cyclists.",
">\n\nEverything you said is completely legal in Denver and sidewalks are illegal , but drivers constantly scream at cyclists to ride there",
">\n\nCyclist can roll stop signs and run red lights in Denver? What the fuck?",
">\n\nI’d have no problem if cyclist had respect for other road users. where I live there are cycle lanes, but most cyclists are on the road or pavements, they ignore red lights etc. \nIf you want to cycle please make it’s safe for yourself and others around you.",
">\n\nExactly my thoughts",
">\n\nHonestly, selfish assholes exist everywhere but a selfish asshole on a bicycle does a lot less damage than a selfish asshole in a car. \nEDIT: OP's also downvoting everyone who disagrees with him, just fyi.",
">\n\nAs a pedestrian, I hate everyone who's not a pedestrian... And some pedestrians too.",
">\n\nThere's a reason so many cyclists die each year, they all seem to pick and choose which laws they want to follow. Its always safer to assume they'll do whatever they want and everyone else needs to adapt to them.",
">\n\nAs a driver downtown, I don't worry at all about pedestrians at intersections, I can turn my head and assume they will be maybe five feet closer to my car when I look back, (and I trust they won't sprint towards me when I look away, at their own peril), but bikes, they ride so fast, that in the short time I turn my head to check for oncoming traffic, a bike could materialize right beside / infront me, and I risk hitting them or them hitting the side of my car. And that's even in their designated bike lane, that I have to pass through to clear the intersection. And if I drive into a ped at three miles per hour, they will just hit my hood with their fist and call me a stupid motherfucker, or whatever makes them feel justice was served, but if I bump the bike, it will be a big crash, the bicyclist will be all curled up in a ball on the ground, I'll be the bad guy in the eyes of the law and anyone nearby, and I'll probably be late as fuck to wherever it is I'm trying to go to.",
">\n\nI skateboard so I guess I'm good",
">\n\nJust don’t inconvenience narcissistic car drivers by a few seconds.",
">\n\nI think everyone hates cyclists. Cyclists included.",
">\n\nAs a driver, I hate you both",
">\n\nPedestrians are literally the worst. Anyone who has to walk more than 20 feet a day and not to their car are complete losers, and should be jailed on site.",
">\n\nOK, I think that's a bit extreme. But hey, if you're running for public office I'll vote for you. \nI do have to wonder anytime I see someone that I know has the mental faculties to drive who is walking. Usually assume too many DUI's.",
">\n\nr/fuckcars ripping out their hair rn",
">\n\nNot unpopular.\n Everyone hates cyclists.",
">\n\nI casually cycle in the summer. If I'm on a trail, I'll slow down and ring my bell if I see pedestrians, or stop and dismount if there's a lot of people or they don't notice me. Especially on the narrow trails in this woodlot I sometimes go to. \nThe problem is a lot of cyclists, especially in North America, but perhaps other places, just aren't respectful of others. They demand car drivers \"share the road\", but then ride in huge packs, lane split, don't signal turns, run stop signs and red lights, weave in and out of traffic, boot up busy sidewalks at 15-20mph, refuse to use provided bike lanes, etc. There's like a gross sense of entitlement in the cycling community. Dude, you're still a vehicle. There's rules that apply to you, just like there are for cars and motorcycles. Big problem is difficulty/lack of enforcement. Cops have to catch them in the act. Even then they're slippery devils since they're usually more mobile than a cruiser or beat cop on foot. This is why I support plating bikes to make them easily identifiable.",
">\n\n\nThere's like a gross sense of entitlement in the cycling community. Dude, you're still a vehicle. There's rules that apply to you, just like there are for cars and motorcycles.\n\nThat is the problem right there. They want to be treated equal to car owners, yet they do not abide by traffic rules, hence all the accidents.",
">\n\nAs a driver, I concur.",
">\n\nI hate bikers on trails. They're supposed to stop and let hikers by but they never do. They go by so freakin' fast too. It's like come on now!",
">\n\nAs a mostly former cyclist, I often hated cyclists too. Mostly, because so many cyclist are just competitive asshats that suck the pleasure out of their own bike ride by making everything about speed. Like, heaven forbid they have to slow and yield to anyone.\nOnce, I was riding my bicycle with my young daughter on a bike path in the city. A couple cyclist came up and got all pissy at us, saying we need to be out of the cycle lane because we were going too slow and my 8 year old kid wasn't keeping to a narrow lane. It was so hostile - my kid started crying.\nBut that is just so typical, all the time. I've gotten yelled out a few times when I made a full, foot down stop at a redlight because the cyclist behind me was expecting me to either run the redlight or at least go into the crosswalk and dance around (like they do) until it went green. I remember nearly getting run over by cyclists all the time, and yelled at if I was going too slow.\nThat being said, we need to do 100,000 x more in the US towards making bike paths, protected bike lanes, etc., because cyling is a truly great way to get around and I miss it. I just don't miss the self-centered asshats that dominate the cycling community.",
">\n\nThis!",
">\n\nI’ve nothing against cyclists as a group. I prefer to hate all people who do stupid things whether they’re in cars, on bikes or walking. Went to pick my daughter up tonight and counted six cyclists in the dark wearing all black with no lights at all plus one with a light so weak I didn’t see it until I was nearly past him. Tonight it was dumb cyclists, but tomorrow it might be idiots in cars. Hate the idiots not the method of transportation.",
">\n\nTrue !",
">\n\nOMG YES !! I completely agree. Every time i tried to explain this to a friend, they would always look at me like I am crazy for thinking such a thing. But as I walk for 45 minutes every days, it became a reality you can't ignore... I can't count how many times I nearly got hit by a cyclist, it happens every other week. I am starting to think that cyclists should have to go through a \"course\" to learn the basics of using the streets x)\n(Sorry for mistakes, not native here 'x) )",
">\n\nThis is my story lol..",
">\n\nYes, and it also is my personal experience, which is why I posted this..?",
">\n\nYes I totally agree. Just saying \"that's my life\" :) happening in Brussels tho",
">\n\nMy bad x) welp France here, it amazes me in a really bad way how this seems to be such a common phenomenon literaly EVERYWHERE",
">\n\nJ'ai roulé en vélo à Paris et laisse tomber l'enfer que c'était. J'avais l'impression d'avancer avec des oies qui insultaient tout le monde. BAa bAAA BAaaAa !!! \nLe problème c'est que plus les gens sont stressés (même les piétons... Genre dans le metro) plus ils se haïssent et ce matin j'avais la haine sur les vélos.. en vrai j'ai la haine sur tous les citadins haha",
">\n\nas a cyclist I hate everyone",
">\n\nSame, I see posts like this where people tell us to ride on the sidewalk when it’s illegal. \nThey assume we don’t walk anywhere, drive, etc like we are essentially subhuman for doing exercise.\nThey tell us to ride closer to the right side of the road so we get hit by a car door. \nThey’re mad that we give a verbal signal that we’re coming up on the left even though that’s the law. \nnow that I’m in Colorado I’m getting yelled at for the Idaho stop, which is completely legal. We yield to stop signs and temporarily stop at red light only till it’s clear. It’s all to REDUCE CAR TRAFFIC.\nSo far I’ve had family members die from hit and runs and drunk drivers, but somehow cyclists are the most dangerous thing on the road today.\nWhat is this really about?",
">\n\nI loathe cyclists. Selfish, entitled lycra lunatics.",
">\n\nBe honest, do you realize that it's possible to ride a bicycle and not be selfish, or entitled, or a lunatic, or not wear lycra?",
">\n\nThis thread is such a circlejerk, it's ridiculous.",
">\n\nThat's what I'm here for",
">\n\nIt's because cycling isn't regulated like motor vehicles are but they still get on the roads unlike pedestrians. So they don't have knowledge on the rules of the road that drivers have.\nThere's also some sort of hypocrisy they have where they believe drivers should give way to them because bikes are more vulnerable than cars while expecting pedestrians to give way to them because they're moving faster.",
">\n\n\nSo they don't have knowledge on the rules of the road\n\nPlenty do. Many cyclists also are automobilists. They just feel like they're exempted from respecting trafic rules because it's tiring to stop and go on a bike and they're slower an lighter than cars.",
">\n\nSure you got hit by a truck, but at least you managed to save yourself a little time and avoid waiting for a few seconds. Is what I'd say if they didn't then end up in the hospital",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists, as it should be.",
">\n\nCyclists shouldn’t be on sidewalks",
">\n\nI also cringe a lot when I see the international Reddit community constantly praise us Dutch people for our biking culture. People have no idea how many traffic accidents we get that could have been avoided if we didn’t have cyclists EVERYWHERE who are barely aware of the traffic rules that also apply to them.\nPeople have no idea about how cyclists are almost always right according to our traffic laws, which makes them much more reckless. They cause millions of dollars of damage to cars (and pedestrians) each year, and barely ever face consequences for their irresponsible and reckless behavior in traffic.\nPeople don’t see how cyclists often block traffic because they like to cycle next to each other in pairs, and if you honk they get angry and sometimes even aggressive and try to break your side mirror if they feel like it.\nMany intersections have bicycle lanes that you need to check when making a turn when driving, even though the intersection is already super busy with lots of cars. And guess what, cyclists still ride around fast and recklessly and making sure you don’t hit another car, cyclist AND pedestrian is all the job of one single driver.\nSo all in all, people from countries where driving is a relatively easy and chill thing to do, praise cycling culture in other countries. Try to drive here in busy traffic with thousands of cars AND (RECKLESS) CYCLISTS on the road and then tell me what it’s like.",
">\n\nIt would be much easier to sympathize with cars drivers if they did not need like 60% of the entire transit space leaving cyclists and pedestrians very little.\n\neven though the intersection is already super busy with lots of cars\n\nOfc, because cars are so large and need so much space.",
">\n\nI get that, but why is that my fault? I don’t do the city planning. Besides, cars are much larger than bicycles, so doesn’t it make sense there’s more space needed for cars than for bicycles?\nBut even then, if you don’t want to have any sympathy for motorists, because city planners give them more space than others, that’s just weird. It’s not the motorist’s fault.",
">\n\n\ndoesn’t it make sense there’s more space needed for cars than for bicycles?\n\nWhy a valuable and scarce resource such as the public space in cities should be used predominantly to benefit car users while barring everyone else? \nI just find it much harder to sympathize with the privileged group.",
">\n\nBecause people need to be able to go from A to B?",
">\n\nSo do pedestrians/public transport users/cyclists. But they don't require so much space per person.",
">\n\nWell in The Netherlands public transportation takes up an enormous amount of space and cyclists have their own dedicated lanes almost everywhere. Also motorists have to give public transportation space as we usually have to stop for trams and buses to pass, according to traffic rules. Guess who doesn’t often follow those rules: cyclists.\nHowever, public transportation itself is super busy and unbelievably expensive in The Netherlands. It costs more than 20 Euros to travel ~70 kilometers. That’s why a lot of people still prefer to have a car, and cars simply need infrastructure.\nSo I don’t really get your point. Cars, bicycles and public transportation all get a fair portion of the space that’s available.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist, i hate pedestrians. Here in Germany, there is bike lanes, one part for bikes and one for pedestrians on traffic lights... etc. But the pedestrians just ignore them, form \"walls\" of people blocking the bike lane, dont look while crossing the bike lane. Even cars repect us more than you.",
">\n\nThis I understand. Experienced the same in Denmark",
">\n\nClaaaaaarksoooooonnnnn",
">\n\nIdk about other places but here cyclists are constantly breaking the law and never getting ticketed for it. It makes no sense to me. I don’t think it’d make a huge difference but I do think some cyclists would think twice about disregarding the rules if those rules were actually enforced.",
">\n\nI get the sentiment. My feeling is the root cause is they don’t have their own infrastructure. Cars and peds do. So cyclists are always forced into a non ideal path. \nI’m aware they have rights to the road but cars and bikes really struggle to share an infrastructure clearly made for cars. \nSo if we invest in cycling infrastructure everyone would probably be happier.",
">\n\ndoubt it. In my city there is an asphalt bike path for miles that is like 8 feet wide. Smooth. No stop signs. Do they use it? nope they get their collective ass out on the street and I honestly don't have a clue why.\nIt defies logic. Safter, smooth, not cars/trunks, etc. Here they are out on the street just fiddle farting down a 45 mph road like they own it with a bike path 15 feet away with no one on it. The last guy I asked said \"It is my road as well you know\" that I ran up on while I was at a crossing while riding on the path myself. I just gave up trying to understand. Someone dies on that road every couple of months from bike or pedestrian strike with a vehicle. It was the whole reason they built the path....",
">\n\nWell in my experience there are 2 thing going on there.\na) Often bikers will avoid the path because peds often share or walk across those paths and their speed is closer to that of a car than a ped or \nb) If they are commuting...the path likely isn't going exactly where they need to.\nAs to your specific scenario I don't doubt there are bikers that are hard headed and stubborn. I know a few of those. But generally I do bikers using the infrastructure where we have built it.",
">\n\nThere's an accident here involving @ car running over a cyclist who crossed a red traffic light. And guess who take the blame?",
">\n\nLaughs in being dutch",
">\n\nIt is regrettable that a handful of asshole cyclists ruins everyone’s opinion of us. It really undermines the support needed to improve infrastructure for cycling. \nIf it is any help, when i ring my bell, I am doing so to avoid the alternatives of either yelling a warning or startling people. I normally exit the path and pass on the grass. I would say that most cyclist are the same. I don’t want you to get out of the way, I want you to know I am there. \nBut it only takes a couple assholes that think they own the path or the street. I have a cousin like this and it is difficult to convince him his is wrong and is putting himself and others in danger.",
">\n\nI think the a-holes are people that are only on a bike because it's the easiest thing for them, living where they do. You and those like you are on the bike because you love cycling.",
">\n\nI live in Portland, OR, and the cyclists here are so fucking rude and entitled.",
">\n\nI live in not-Portland OR and visited once. I biked down the road. Could not believe how nice everyone was to me. Probably because they could tell I’m an outsider.",
">\n\nI meant how they treat everyone else who isn't on a bike, tbh.",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists and it's for a simple reason. They think they can do whatever the hell they want. They switch between a pedestrian, a cyclist and a vehicle deciding on the fly whatever rules they feel like following with no accountability. \nOne minute they are skipping traffic, then they are deciding to cross at a crosswalk instead of following traffic. And the sidewalks are bike lanes if that's more convenient.",
">\n\nI just get annoyed because they will ride double wide on a tight street, forcing you to go 60mph in a 45, on the opposite side of traffic, risking a head on collision. And yea, you have to do that, because otherwise cars behind you will start driving aggressive as well as the fact that your expecting all the cars to go at a bikes speed on the road.",
">\n\nThat's because every country except for the Netherlands and Denmark have shit bicycle infrastructure.",
">\n\nI civilised countries we have cycling paths and cycling on the street is also possible as drivers aren't insane. So this seems rather like a problem of poor urban planning than cyclists in general.",
">\n\nWhere I live the cyclists just refuse to take the bikelane and either block the traffic because the rather use the street or they decide to use the pedestrian side of the sidewalk. The frickin bikelane is as big as the pedestrian one. There is no excuse not to use it and they still won't! One of them almost hit me if I hadn't dodge it. If the cyclist only drove a few inches to the left there would have been a bikelane and it wouldn't happened. Of course the person didn't apologize and just cursed at me.",
">\n\nBike gutters are awful and less safe than taking the lane. Assholes park in the bike lanes ALL THE TIME. Plus no one ever looks behind them when getting out pf their car so getting smacked by a door is a real danger. Drivers are entitled but it’s not their fault it’s the way we’ve built society to allow and expect them to be.\nETA: next time you’re driving around take a count how many people you see pulled over or parked in a bike gutter.",
">\n\nCompletely agree - I was ran over almost 3 times in Berlin. \nAnd every single time I checked before crossing - but they just suddenly spawned right in the way",
">\n\nDid you cross at a designated crosswalk? As a cyclist the amount of times people just randomly meander across an active street instead of going to the zebra/lollipop crossing, and then get angry at me when I have to swerve out the way/ brake is comical.",
">\n\nMan, y'all are sad people. \n\"Get off the road!\" Okay, now we are on the sidewalk. \n\"Get off the sidewalk!\" Back in the road again. \n\"They need to ring their bells so we know they're coming! Btw I hate it when they ring their bells so I know they're coming.\"",
">\n\nI hate cyclists like that. I don’t have a car so my bike is my main source of transportation and I don’t ride like that. So far, from what I’ve noticed in my area, I’m the only one that follows the damn rules in my city xD",
">\n\nNo matter where you are and who you are… driver or walker, scooter or flyer… we ALL hate cyclists.",
">\n\nI feel ya. The only thing I hate more than cyclists is electric scooters.",
">\n\nCompletely agree! A cycling license (similar to driving) should be required. Far too many cyclist who doesn’t know (and those who don’t just give a F) about traffic rules.",
">\n\nI completely agree! Cyclists have a lot of rights on the roads, and are very vocal about them, but think they can do whatever the fuck they want at roundabouts and pedestrian crossings.",
">\n\nIt just fascinates me how anyone can walk or drive through a city and genuinely think that bicycles are the problem. Look around you at every turn there are cars jamming the roads. Parked blocking things. Blocking pavements. Driving aggressively. Speeding. Failing to stop. Polluting the air. If they hit you, you are seriously injured or dead. This happens in the thousands. The city absolutely revolves around them.",
">\n\nYou are 100% right. Except I didn't say bicycles are the problem. I said i hate them. I said fuck cars too. I also said bicycles are one of the best alternative for trafic jam in cities.\nCities in Europe weren't made for cars nor bikes. So the problem is the fucking lazy greedy people who decide how to spend our tax money. The problem is people thinking they are all alone on the street. The problem is how stressed everybody is and how it become dangerous.\nNot because I hate how cyclists take revenge from drivers bullies to pedestrians makes me hate a transportation model itself.",
">\n\nIt just seems odd that people can really harp on about cyclists when they are such a trivial issue. Posts like this can get hundreds of replies. People tend to make excuses about cars.",
">\n\nYou just insulted a whole country.",
">\n\nThe Netherlands? It's ok",
">\n\nOk",
">\n\nI judge the actions of the individual not the mode of transport. I find it produces more accurate results.",
">\n\nApparently \"individuals alone are responsible for their own actions\" is the real unpopular opinion here.",
">\n\nIndeed 😀",
">\n\nAs a car driver I also hate cyclists. Saw one on a 45mph the other day despite there being a sidewalk AND a bikelane",
">\n\n45 mph isn't a speed for bike lane or sidewalk. Street is",
">\n\nas a cyclist, I hate pedestrians.\nMy city put in these nice protected bicycle lanes so bikes don't have to ride inches from cars, and boy don't those pedestrians just LOVE using the bike lane as a queuing up spot for the crosswalks. it's just so nice and convenient to get 5 more feet closer to your goal, isn't it? Those bicycles can stop and wait...and feel free to swear at them like THEY are the ones in the wrong.\nBicycles and pedestrians are natural enemies, that's never going to change. There can be only one.",
">\n\nLET'S END THIS NOW !!!!!",
">\n\nanyplace but Holy Ground.",
">\n\ndon't blame all bicyclists for the shitty ones.\nthat would be like saying every person who drives a car is an asshole. or every person who walks on the sidewalk is an asshole.\nsome people are good at getting around. other people are jerks. don't blame everyone for the actions of a small subset of people.",
">\n\nI mean, isn’t that the sentiment over that the popular sub r/fuckcars? The generalization is already being perpetuated from cyclists and “urbanists” in their war against cars.",
">\n\nNot really. That sub mostly hates the focus on cars when designing infrastructure, as well as the forced dependency on cars in our modern world. Not individual drivers.",
">\n\nSure about that? It’s mostly just a bitch-fest about driver errors to further their political agenda.",
">\n\nYea, I'm pretty sure.",
">\n\nReally weird way to get there if that’s the case. Alienating a large portion of the population (car drivers, car riders, people that depend on vehicles for the delivery of goods and services) is not how you get them on your side.",
">\n\nI don't think that's their goal in the first place. It's just a reddit sub.",
">\n\nEspecially when they have a stupid fucking bell and say \"on the left\" then proceed to be on the right side of the trail running into you",
">\n\nHahahha \"is he coming on the left or should i go on the lef...\" BANG!!",
">\n\nGF lives in a college town. It’s as if there’s some kinda fuckin’ death wish among the student cycling population",
">\n\nAs a [insert anyone, including cyclist], I hate cyclists.",
">\n\nPeople don't wanna hear it when it comes from automobilists because \"gngn cars are more dangerous and drivers are entitled\" but reality is cyclists are just the worst. Whether I'm on foot, driving a car, or riding a bicycle myself, cyclists are always always the ones being absolute public hazards. Heck, when I'm on my bike and stop at the stop sign on a cycle lane to let the cars go, they look at me as if I'm jesus or something. They even try to let me pass first because of how used they are to cyclists who just can't be bothered to respect the damn stop sign.",
">\n\nThe problem isn't the cyclists here, it's the lacking infrastructure.",
">\n\nWe shouldn't have to build infrastructure so people can partake in recreation. I find that comment extremely arrogant. Why on earth do cyclists deserve to have their recreation glorified and catered to??",
">\n\nRecreation? Ah yes, cycling is only for recreation.",
">\n\nWell, where I live that I'd the ONLY purpose. I'm 17 miles from any city municipality. Nobody is biking here to go to the grocery store or work.",
">\n\nNot everything is about you personally.",
">\n\nTo me, it is, and should be. My concern is around how cyclists inconvenience me while I'm trying to be a productive member of society. I feel like that's a fair critique.",
">\n\nYou are mad that cyclists inconvenience you yet you reject dedicated infrastructure as a solution. Do you think cyclists should be banned off the road completely?",
">\n\nThe real issue here is lacking cycling infrastructure.",
">\n\nDefinitely a major issue.\nBut part of the issue is definitely cyclists who prioritize their own speed over the safety and welfare of everyone around them. It's like they are all BMW drivers, deep down, and just don't want to yield to or slow down for anyone.",
">\n\nI'm sure there are, assholes exist in all vehicle types.",
">\n\nCyclists know thar neither the pavement nor the road are theirs because motorists and pedestrians like you are both screaming at them all the time. And I swear you'd be angrier if they didn't give a polite warning that they're coming toward you. \nCyclists who breeze through crossings instead of stopping are a minority, much like cyclists are a minority in general, and you can't judge an entire group that aren't adequately represented",
">\n\nFuck traveling in general",
">\n\nYa. Where are our transporters! \nSorry had to go full nerd.",
">\n\nI see posts like this constantly. It blows my mind people can just choose one thing that is so insignificant to scapegoat. \nThey assume people on bikes don’t also walk, drive, etc like we are essentially subhuman for doing exercise / running errands in this way because they are inconvenienced for a few seconds. You realize we are human like you , right?\nPeople tell us to ride bicycles on the sidewalk when it’s illegal while others say not too. It’s usually against the law.\nThey tell us to ride closer to the right side of the road , so we get hit by a car door and yelled at again. \nThey’re mad that we give a verbal signal that we’re coming up on the left even though that’s the law. \nNow that I’m in Colorado I’m getting yelled at for the Idaho stop, which is completely legal. We yield to stop signs and temporarily stop at red lights only if it’s clear. It’s all to REDUCE CAR TRAFFIC. \nKeep in mind we are riding bicycles which in its own right REDUCES CAR TRAFFIC. \n80% of car trips are within 3 miles from your house. Everyone that rides a bike keeps you from being stuck behind them in traffic for longer then the 20 seconds you’re currently inconvenienced. It’s also mean parking closer to the front door of a shop. \nSo far I’ve had family members die from hit and runs and drunk drivers, but somehow cyclists are the most dangerous thing on the road today?! It’s not adding up.\nWhat is this really about?",
">\n\nI'm sorry for your losses. I never said bikers are the most dangerous things on the road. Saying this would be stupid. The problem in my city is the lack of respect from cyclists to pedestrians in a general way. I'm not even talking about drivers against EVERYTHING ON THE STREET.",
">\n\nI go out of my way to be respectful to everybody, and I’ve had nothing but kindness and respect from other cyclists .\nYou wanna blame everybody on a bicycle for all your problems when it’s really just about a few people who disrespected you. \nCyclists are drivers, walkers, etc. do they just jump on a bicycle and instantly become disrespectful?\nStill doesn’t make any logical sense.",
">\n\nDude you just don't get it.. i understand biking is your life.. but come on.\nI use to bike 40km per day to work. \nI don't have problems with people jumping on bikes. I simply hate the ones that are disrespectful.\nIs it too hard to understand? Just me venting coz I feel like a lot of bikers think they are on top of the citizen pyramid? \nI'm not venting about the system here, nor about cars.. just about some (yes some) bikers.\nAnd please there is no need to beg for upvotes on fuckcars how old are you?",
">\n\nI bet your fat.",
">\n\nOf course I fart !",
">\n\nTo you yours and to mine mine; I hate car users and their ilk who are filled with wonton waste and hate for all else who dare travel near them. I stop at all lights, halt for all signs, use a mirror, lights, and hand signals, pull over for cars coming my way so long as there is any room, and use what little biking infrastructure is available to me.\nMy taxes are waste and paid in folly for they assuredly go in portion to your reckless use of a powerful machine and not to my own reckless use of a small self-propelled stick on two wheels to separate lanes and keep them maintained. No, no, I must settle for the gutter and cry glee for that and be ashamed to move to the sidewalk when it suddenly ends and continues a block later down the road. \nFuck your car, your roads, and your selfish desire to pave the world and create cities with 60% of their coverage dedicated to driving a car, parking a car, and separating the world into places for cars and otherwise. You who drive faster and faster, in bigger and bigger cars. I loath you as you loath mine.",
">\n\nI wouldn’t hate cyclists if they didn’t act like road laws don’t apply to em in the city where I live. I’ve seen cyclists not even stop at red lights even with an almost full intersection, and ride the wrong way down one ways.\nEdit: I do wish the city where I live had more bike lanes but yeah.",
">\n\nIf you're going to hate someone, maybe hate the people actually doing those things.\nIf I see someone on a bike rush through a short break on a red light in an otherwise busy intersection, I shake my head and think they are an idiot. I think this while waiting for the light to turn green on my bike.\nSimilarly, when a car illegally stops in a bike lane (which happens ALL THE TIME by the way), I don't turn around and blame the cars moving along legally in the adjacent lane.",
">\n\nPedestrian are the worst.\nWhen i started using bicicle I was very polite: brake, ring, ask for permission. And what the large amount of people do? Ignore u, watch u in the eyes and take a step in the fucking middle of the trail (many many times! for real!), shout at you just because u exist. So.... At some point is fuck you all, I'm coming go out of the way. That's it",
">\n\n\nI will never drive nor park on a bike lane, always look into the mirror to be careful of one of you monkeys. So why can't you be careful when us peasants are walking?\n\nThis is dumb. Obviously there are plenty of cyclists who are careful and courteous about your safety. That's part of what a bell or \"watch out!\" (generally \"On your left\") is doing for you. And just because you are courteous to them doesn't mean everyone is. Is every driver a douchebag just because some of them crowd cyclists when and where the cyclist has the right to the road? No.",
">\n\nThe difference here is that generally car drivers are going to be held accountable for bad driving. This is in the form of dash cams, ANPR and red light cameras which catch drivers doing bad things and they can receive a fine or points on their licence. Cyclists currently can't be held accountable if they jump red lights or hit a car or pedestrian as there isn't anything that helps identify them. This is a big issue in cities. I live and work in London and see many cyclists jumping red lights and weaving around pedestrians crossing. Cars can't do this as most traffic lights have red light cameras that would catch this.\nDrivers as a collective (including me) are in no way perfect or even held to account 100% of the time, but I believe we need a system for cyclists to be held accountable too",
">\n\nYour way of thinking, while perfectly rational and natural, is outdated. Traffic law enforcement, like any other law enforcement, is less about the enforcement, and more about the prevention. Where I live, speed and red light cameras are clearly marked ahead so that the people who'd normally break the law follow it instead, making punishment unnecessary. \nSame could be done with cyclists. Sure, you could make every cyclist install a license plate, require a \"cycling license\", or install expensive cameras with facial identification software, but how about just make it so cyclists aren't incentivised to break the law in the first place? \nMake more useful cycling infrastructure, and more cyclists will use it. Make that infrastructure intersect with foot and motor traffic more safely and less often, and less collisions will happen.",
">\n\nI completely understand your point. However, a lot of money has gone into my local area for cycling infrastructure that most cyclists are using, but many are still choosing to break the rules as the rules are inconvenient. The infrastructure is not enough, there needs to be an incentive NOT to break the rules.\nIf you take a look at Chiswick High Road in London, England. They have created segregated cycle lanes from the traffic. These cycle lanes have their own lights and crossings to keep them safe from cars. However many cyclists just ignore the lights and just keep going into pedestrians. There is no punishment for them doing this as they can't be tracked. Personally I think every cyclist should have to register their bike (make it free to help encourage this) and then a new form of ANPR used to also catch cyclists in the act",
">\n\nPersonally I'd have no problem registering my bike for free, especially if I could use that same registration if it gets stolen, but registering something as mechanically simple and cheap as a bicycle is, in my opinion difficult if not impossible to do without making the bike mechanically complex and expensive, at which point most people would just switch to scooters.\nI don't live in London, but from what I've heard, by far the biggest threat in the city is still motorized traffic, namely cars and lorries, and so until that problem is no longer a problem, I wouldn't really do anything special about bikes. Maybe put some undercover bike cops near the most dangerous bike path/lane intersections to catch a few offenders and make an example out of them, but that's about it.",
">\n\nMost cars I’ve driven came equipped with brakes and a steering wheel. I don’t see the problem",
">\n\nA common take and a stupid one.\nThere are good and bad drivers, pedestrians, and cyclists. Hating any of them as a group because some of them do bad things is just dumb.",
">\n\nIf you followed the laws and stayed out of the bike lane as a pedestrian there would be no problem.",
">\n\nIf bicyclists followed the laws and stopped ignoring street signs/traffic lights there would be no problem.",
">\n\nDon’t see how this address the problem with pedestrians in bike lanes.",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Drivers pedestrians other cyclists. They're a scourge.",
">\n\nEvery word of this is pure wisdom.",
">\n\nAs a car driver, I too hate cyclists.\nI don't care who has 'right of way'. I'm in a car, you're not. If we collide, regardless of fault, you're the one that dies.\nDo you really want to die on the hill that says \"i can bike on the rode b/c it's legal\"?\nI might be in jail, but you're still dead.\nBikes don't belong on public roads. Unless there's a bike lane - aka, a pathway designed specifically for bikers.\nIt's FAR SAFER to bike on the sidewalk.",
">\n\nBe careful you’ll anger r/fuckcars",
">\n\nI recently got a bike in Japan and there isn't any room on the street to ride my bike. Most people are fine when I'm on the sidewalk, however, the worst ones are groups of 2 or more who try and take up as much space as possible allowing nobody to pass. Same with the people who constantly switch between the left and right side of the sidewalk. It's really annoying to see how little spacial awareness they have.",
">\n\nCyclists on the road don’t have to pass the same test as vehicles on the road, which is why they are so bad. If there was a test in order to cycle on the road then i think it would be alot better",
">\n\nWhy do you hate all cyclists when only some of them are rude/dangerous?"
] |
>
It's the powered vehicles that kill most pedestrians.
But, sure, cyclists blahblah...
|
[
"I road cycled for years, I always followed the street rules. Always. Red light means red light. \nI have so many cycling friends who get into accidents and other conflicts with drivers, and yet they think it’s stupid to stop at a red light. They just don’t connect these two things",
">\n\nMost bikers I encounter are complete idiots. Like I'd be driving normally and out of nowhere comes a biker on a crosswalk in full speed. Now, I appreciate bikers who actually stop and make eye contact with me as I'm driving towards the crosswalk but man, it's either that or the biker almost dies because I have no time to brake.\nAnd what's up with all the bikers going like 5 kmh IN THE MIDDLE of a road when there's a dedicated sidewalk for bikers right next to them? Drives me insane.",
">\n\nIt seems like most bikers because of observation bias.\nIf you follow the rules as you should, you’re unmemorable.\nAs for the sidewalks - its actually less safe on the sidewalk.",
">\n\nInteresting. Dangerous situations are more valuable to remember, and I remember tons of irresponsible bikers. It is in fact observation bias. But I'm always happy to see those who pay close attention to traffic, and I do remeber some of them aswell.",
">\n\nWell the same goes for driving. How many cars do you remember when they haven’t done anything? But you tend to remember the ones who do something dumb",
">\n\nYeah it can be applied to anything really.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist in one of the most bike-dense cities in the world, I hate cyclists too. If I could avoid getting myself hurt, I’d be ramming at least ten of them a day just to teach a lesson about ignoring rules and common sense.",
">\n\nAmsterdam? Copenhagen?",
">\n\nCopenhagen. It’s a wonderful bike city but the people are incredibly self-centered.",
">\n\nI had high expectations from cyclists when I first visited the city, after all it is heralded as a cycling paradise and, well, let’s say it looked a lot more like the rest of the world and mainly because of the personal behavior of cyclists.\nMy local friend justified it, stating that it’s because danish are more temperamental than all other Scandinavians: an explanation that I really didn’t know what to do with…",
">\n\nIf “temperamental” means “a bunch of egotistical [insert unflattering body part]”, he’s right.",
">\n\nYou make it sound like a war zone. I live in Copenhagen and most of the time biking around the city is very pleasant. Except for the food delivery scooters, they can 🤬 off.",
">\n\nI guess it depends on how often and where you’re going. If you have places to be each and every day and want to get there effectively, people ignoring general rules and courtesies of the road are a pain. If you’re one of the types listening to podcasts with a latte in one hand and a phone in the other just trudging along, it’s probably fine.",
">\n\nSame! I love walking. Where I live on popular trails, there are bike lanes, but the cyclists will just ride wherever they. They don’t care and won’t let you know they’re coming. They’ll get pissy if you don’t just automatically know they’re coming up from behind you. If you do much as step foot in the bike lane, they get mad, but have no problems riding side by side outside the bike lane.",
">\n\nSame here! So much for my pleasant walk on the beautiful Trail. They sneak up and when they're almost on top of me, a loud voice yells \"On your left!\" They startle the shit out of me and cause me to jump sky high! 😡",
">\n\nIt’s literally the law to say that. This thread is all about hating them no matter if they follow the law or not.",
">\n\nIs it possible to do that without sneaking up on them and startling the shit out of them by yelling real loud? And then cutting is close to them as you possibly can without hitting them?",
">\n\nHello. \nMy useless comment to this post is here :D\nSo, i work in the accidents department of a big insurance company. My country is very strickt about the road rules, meaning:\nOur company estimates (is this the right word?) that around 82% of accidents involving cyclists, are to blame on the cyclist. Since there are expecific places on the road for you to ride your bike, even if it's not a bike lane.\nI remember a case where 3 dudes were just cycling, outside of town and they were literally on the middle of the road. the place where they were is full of curves and has very little visibility, so they were riding side by side, middle of the road, comes a car, hits not one, but the 3 of them because they scared the person and she just swerved the car.\nThey sued her and us (insurance) 2 times. Lost both and had to pay for all damage done on the car by their own bodys",
">\n\nThis sounds like something that happened near by my home town, are you in Ontario?",
">\n\nno XD portugal",
">\n\nGod its so much worse that it's happened in multiple places.\nIn ours I think the driver killed one of the cyclists, then sued the family for emotional damage",
">\n\nMy biggest gripe about cyclists is that there is always some danger when you encounter them on the road, either as a pedestrian or motorist. Now, part of it isn’t their fault. At least here in the US, not much of the infrastructure is made for bicycles. But cyclists are constantly breaking the rules of the road (or sidewalk) to get where they’re going faster. Blowing red lights, leaving the bike lane to use the sidewalk, splitting lanes. I always clench a little when I approach one, wondering if this is the day I can’t get out of the way.",
">\n\nWe have that same problem, but then a million times worse, because I live in The Netherlands. You probably know about our proud cycling culture (the Amsterdam stereotype). And yes, cyclists here are just as bad as the ones you describe, but there’s a lot more of them here. And oh yeah, traffic laws are almost always in their favor.",
">\n\nI found driving in the towns of the Netherlands so hard. Not just because I was on the wrong side of the road 😉 but because I just wasn’t used to sooo many cyclists coming from all directions, always faster than me and passing on both sides. Even as I was signalling to leave a roundabout at one point about three cyclists rode past on the inside. I really struggled to keep up with them all, which of course means I drove slower and thus even more bikes passed me!",
">\n\nYes that is of course very difficult, however as a Dutchman I’m used to cyclists, so of course we struggle a lot less. But that doesn’t take away from the fact that cyclists do cause a lot of issues because of their careless behavior, and because as drivers we have to accommodate them. That one sided ‘deal’ that we have makes it very difficult to deal with them.\nAll in all I’m happy we have so many cyclists as it’s good for the environment. But the utopian mindset of cyclists being a gift to the world is just stupid. Especially when you consider that mostly Americans who drive on wide open roads with barely any cyclists around are the ones praising cyclists in my country all the time. Also, cyclists annoy the hell out of pedestrians as well, so it’s not just about motorists.",
">\n\nCyclists treat red lights like stop signs and stop signs like yield signs (at best). They’re not allowed on sidewalks but do it anyway. Fuckin hate cyclists.",
">\n\nEverything you said is completely legal in Denver and sidewalks are illegal , but drivers constantly scream at cyclists to ride there",
">\n\nCyclist can roll stop signs and run red lights in Denver? What the fuck?",
">\n\nI’d have no problem if cyclist had respect for other road users. where I live there are cycle lanes, but most cyclists are on the road or pavements, they ignore red lights etc. \nIf you want to cycle please make it’s safe for yourself and others around you.",
">\n\nExactly my thoughts",
">\n\nHonestly, selfish assholes exist everywhere but a selfish asshole on a bicycle does a lot less damage than a selfish asshole in a car. \nEDIT: OP's also downvoting everyone who disagrees with him, just fyi.",
">\n\nAs a pedestrian, I hate everyone who's not a pedestrian... And some pedestrians too.",
">\n\nThere's a reason so many cyclists die each year, they all seem to pick and choose which laws they want to follow. Its always safer to assume they'll do whatever they want and everyone else needs to adapt to them.",
">\n\nAs a driver downtown, I don't worry at all about pedestrians at intersections, I can turn my head and assume they will be maybe five feet closer to my car when I look back, (and I trust they won't sprint towards me when I look away, at their own peril), but bikes, they ride so fast, that in the short time I turn my head to check for oncoming traffic, a bike could materialize right beside / infront me, and I risk hitting them or them hitting the side of my car. And that's even in their designated bike lane, that I have to pass through to clear the intersection. And if I drive into a ped at three miles per hour, they will just hit my hood with their fist and call me a stupid motherfucker, or whatever makes them feel justice was served, but if I bump the bike, it will be a big crash, the bicyclist will be all curled up in a ball on the ground, I'll be the bad guy in the eyes of the law and anyone nearby, and I'll probably be late as fuck to wherever it is I'm trying to go to.",
">\n\nI skateboard so I guess I'm good",
">\n\nJust don’t inconvenience narcissistic car drivers by a few seconds.",
">\n\nI think everyone hates cyclists. Cyclists included.",
">\n\nAs a driver, I hate you both",
">\n\nPedestrians are literally the worst. Anyone who has to walk more than 20 feet a day and not to their car are complete losers, and should be jailed on site.",
">\n\nOK, I think that's a bit extreme. But hey, if you're running for public office I'll vote for you. \nI do have to wonder anytime I see someone that I know has the mental faculties to drive who is walking. Usually assume too many DUI's.",
">\n\nr/fuckcars ripping out their hair rn",
">\n\nNot unpopular.\n Everyone hates cyclists.",
">\n\nI casually cycle in the summer. If I'm on a trail, I'll slow down and ring my bell if I see pedestrians, or stop and dismount if there's a lot of people or they don't notice me. Especially on the narrow trails in this woodlot I sometimes go to. \nThe problem is a lot of cyclists, especially in North America, but perhaps other places, just aren't respectful of others. They demand car drivers \"share the road\", but then ride in huge packs, lane split, don't signal turns, run stop signs and red lights, weave in and out of traffic, boot up busy sidewalks at 15-20mph, refuse to use provided bike lanes, etc. There's like a gross sense of entitlement in the cycling community. Dude, you're still a vehicle. There's rules that apply to you, just like there are for cars and motorcycles. Big problem is difficulty/lack of enforcement. Cops have to catch them in the act. Even then they're slippery devils since they're usually more mobile than a cruiser or beat cop on foot. This is why I support plating bikes to make them easily identifiable.",
">\n\n\nThere's like a gross sense of entitlement in the cycling community. Dude, you're still a vehicle. There's rules that apply to you, just like there are for cars and motorcycles.\n\nThat is the problem right there. They want to be treated equal to car owners, yet they do not abide by traffic rules, hence all the accidents.",
">\n\nAs a driver, I concur.",
">\n\nI hate bikers on trails. They're supposed to stop and let hikers by but they never do. They go by so freakin' fast too. It's like come on now!",
">\n\nAs a mostly former cyclist, I often hated cyclists too. Mostly, because so many cyclist are just competitive asshats that suck the pleasure out of their own bike ride by making everything about speed. Like, heaven forbid they have to slow and yield to anyone.\nOnce, I was riding my bicycle with my young daughter on a bike path in the city. A couple cyclist came up and got all pissy at us, saying we need to be out of the cycle lane because we were going too slow and my 8 year old kid wasn't keeping to a narrow lane. It was so hostile - my kid started crying.\nBut that is just so typical, all the time. I've gotten yelled out a few times when I made a full, foot down stop at a redlight because the cyclist behind me was expecting me to either run the redlight or at least go into the crosswalk and dance around (like they do) until it went green. I remember nearly getting run over by cyclists all the time, and yelled at if I was going too slow.\nThat being said, we need to do 100,000 x more in the US towards making bike paths, protected bike lanes, etc., because cyling is a truly great way to get around and I miss it. I just don't miss the self-centered asshats that dominate the cycling community.",
">\n\nThis!",
">\n\nI’ve nothing against cyclists as a group. I prefer to hate all people who do stupid things whether they’re in cars, on bikes or walking. Went to pick my daughter up tonight and counted six cyclists in the dark wearing all black with no lights at all plus one with a light so weak I didn’t see it until I was nearly past him. Tonight it was dumb cyclists, but tomorrow it might be idiots in cars. Hate the idiots not the method of transportation.",
">\n\nTrue !",
">\n\nOMG YES !! I completely agree. Every time i tried to explain this to a friend, they would always look at me like I am crazy for thinking such a thing. But as I walk for 45 minutes every days, it became a reality you can't ignore... I can't count how many times I nearly got hit by a cyclist, it happens every other week. I am starting to think that cyclists should have to go through a \"course\" to learn the basics of using the streets x)\n(Sorry for mistakes, not native here 'x) )",
">\n\nThis is my story lol..",
">\n\nYes, and it also is my personal experience, which is why I posted this..?",
">\n\nYes I totally agree. Just saying \"that's my life\" :) happening in Brussels tho",
">\n\nMy bad x) welp France here, it amazes me in a really bad way how this seems to be such a common phenomenon literaly EVERYWHERE",
">\n\nJ'ai roulé en vélo à Paris et laisse tomber l'enfer que c'était. J'avais l'impression d'avancer avec des oies qui insultaient tout le monde. BAa bAAA BAaaAa !!! \nLe problème c'est que plus les gens sont stressés (même les piétons... Genre dans le metro) plus ils se haïssent et ce matin j'avais la haine sur les vélos.. en vrai j'ai la haine sur tous les citadins haha",
">\n\nas a cyclist I hate everyone",
">\n\nSame, I see posts like this where people tell us to ride on the sidewalk when it’s illegal. \nThey assume we don’t walk anywhere, drive, etc like we are essentially subhuman for doing exercise.\nThey tell us to ride closer to the right side of the road so we get hit by a car door. \nThey’re mad that we give a verbal signal that we’re coming up on the left even though that’s the law. \nnow that I’m in Colorado I’m getting yelled at for the Idaho stop, which is completely legal. We yield to stop signs and temporarily stop at red light only till it’s clear. It’s all to REDUCE CAR TRAFFIC.\nSo far I’ve had family members die from hit and runs and drunk drivers, but somehow cyclists are the most dangerous thing on the road today.\nWhat is this really about?",
">\n\nI loathe cyclists. Selfish, entitled lycra lunatics.",
">\n\nBe honest, do you realize that it's possible to ride a bicycle and not be selfish, or entitled, or a lunatic, or not wear lycra?",
">\n\nThis thread is such a circlejerk, it's ridiculous.",
">\n\nThat's what I'm here for",
">\n\nIt's because cycling isn't regulated like motor vehicles are but they still get on the roads unlike pedestrians. So they don't have knowledge on the rules of the road that drivers have.\nThere's also some sort of hypocrisy they have where they believe drivers should give way to them because bikes are more vulnerable than cars while expecting pedestrians to give way to them because they're moving faster.",
">\n\n\nSo they don't have knowledge on the rules of the road\n\nPlenty do. Many cyclists also are automobilists. They just feel like they're exempted from respecting trafic rules because it's tiring to stop and go on a bike and they're slower an lighter than cars.",
">\n\nSure you got hit by a truck, but at least you managed to save yourself a little time and avoid waiting for a few seconds. Is what I'd say if they didn't then end up in the hospital",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists, as it should be.",
">\n\nCyclists shouldn’t be on sidewalks",
">\n\nI also cringe a lot when I see the international Reddit community constantly praise us Dutch people for our biking culture. People have no idea how many traffic accidents we get that could have been avoided if we didn’t have cyclists EVERYWHERE who are barely aware of the traffic rules that also apply to them.\nPeople have no idea about how cyclists are almost always right according to our traffic laws, which makes them much more reckless. They cause millions of dollars of damage to cars (and pedestrians) each year, and barely ever face consequences for their irresponsible and reckless behavior in traffic.\nPeople don’t see how cyclists often block traffic because they like to cycle next to each other in pairs, and if you honk they get angry and sometimes even aggressive and try to break your side mirror if they feel like it.\nMany intersections have bicycle lanes that you need to check when making a turn when driving, even though the intersection is already super busy with lots of cars. And guess what, cyclists still ride around fast and recklessly and making sure you don’t hit another car, cyclist AND pedestrian is all the job of one single driver.\nSo all in all, people from countries where driving is a relatively easy and chill thing to do, praise cycling culture in other countries. Try to drive here in busy traffic with thousands of cars AND (RECKLESS) CYCLISTS on the road and then tell me what it’s like.",
">\n\nIt would be much easier to sympathize with cars drivers if they did not need like 60% of the entire transit space leaving cyclists and pedestrians very little.\n\neven though the intersection is already super busy with lots of cars\n\nOfc, because cars are so large and need so much space.",
">\n\nI get that, but why is that my fault? I don’t do the city planning. Besides, cars are much larger than bicycles, so doesn’t it make sense there’s more space needed for cars than for bicycles?\nBut even then, if you don’t want to have any sympathy for motorists, because city planners give them more space than others, that’s just weird. It’s not the motorist’s fault.",
">\n\n\ndoesn’t it make sense there’s more space needed for cars than for bicycles?\n\nWhy a valuable and scarce resource such as the public space in cities should be used predominantly to benefit car users while barring everyone else? \nI just find it much harder to sympathize with the privileged group.",
">\n\nBecause people need to be able to go from A to B?",
">\n\nSo do pedestrians/public transport users/cyclists. But they don't require so much space per person.",
">\n\nWell in The Netherlands public transportation takes up an enormous amount of space and cyclists have their own dedicated lanes almost everywhere. Also motorists have to give public transportation space as we usually have to stop for trams and buses to pass, according to traffic rules. Guess who doesn’t often follow those rules: cyclists.\nHowever, public transportation itself is super busy and unbelievably expensive in The Netherlands. It costs more than 20 Euros to travel ~70 kilometers. That’s why a lot of people still prefer to have a car, and cars simply need infrastructure.\nSo I don’t really get your point. Cars, bicycles and public transportation all get a fair portion of the space that’s available.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist, i hate pedestrians. Here in Germany, there is bike lanes, one part for bikes and one for pedestrians on traffic lights... etc. But the pedestrians just ignore them, form \"walls\" of people blocking the bike lane, dont look while crossing the bike lane. Even cars repect us more than you.",
">\n\nThis I understand. Experienced the same in Denmark",
">\n\nClaaaaaarksoooooonnnnn",
">\n\nIdk about other places but here cyclists are constantly breaking the law and never getting ticketed for it. It makes no sense to me. I don’t think it’d make a huge difference but I do think some cyclists would think twice about disregarding the rules if those rules were actually enforced.",
">\n\nI get the sentiment. My feeling is the root cause is they don’t have their own infrastructure. Cars and peds do. So cyclists are always forced into a non ideal path. \nI’m aware they have rights to the road but cars and bikes really struggle to share an infrastructure clearly made for cars. \nSo if we invest in cycling infrastructure everyone would probably be happier.",
">\n\ndoubt it. In my city there is an asphalt bike path for miles that is like 8 feet wide. Smooth. No stop signs. Do they use it? nope they get their collective ass out on the street and I honestly don't have a clue why.\nIt defies logic. Safter, smooth, not cars/trunks, etc. Here they are out on the street just fiddle farting down a 45 mph road like they own it with a bike path 15 feet away with no one on it. The last guy I asked said \"It is my road as well you know\" that I ran up on while I was at a crossing while riding on the path myself. I just gave up trying to understand. Someone dies on that road every couple of months from bike or pedestrian strike with a vehicle. It was the whole reason they built the path....",
">\n\nWell in my experience there are 2 thing going on there.\na) Often bikers will avoid the path because peds often share or walk across those paths and their speed is closer to that of a car than a ped or \nb) If they are commuting...the path likely isn't going exactly where they need to.\nAs to your specific scenario I don't doubt there are bikers that are hard headed and stubborn. I know a few of those. But generally I do bikers using the infrastructure where we have built it.",
">\n\nThere's an accident here involving @ car running over a cyclist who crossed a red traffic light. And guess who take the blame?",
">\n\nLaughs in being dutch",
">\n\nIt is regrettable that a handful of asshole cyclists ruins everyone’s opinion of us. It really undermines the support needed to improve infrastructure for cycling. \nIf it is any help, when i ring my bell, I am doing so to avoid the alternatives of either yelling a warning or startling people. I normally exit the path and pass on the grass. I would say that most cyclist are the same. I don’t want you to get out of the way, I want you to know I am there. \nBut it only takes a couple assholes that think they own the path or the street. I have a cousin like this and it is difficult to convince him his is wrong and is putting himself and others in danger.",
">\n\nI think the a-holes are people that are only on a bike because it's the easiest thing for them, living where they do. You and those like you are on the bike because you love cycling.",
">\n\nI live in Portland, OR, and the cyclists here are so fucking rude and entitled.",
">\n\nI live in not-Portland OR and visited once. I biked down the road. Could not believe how nice everyone was to me. Probably because they could tell I’m an outsider.",
">\n\nI meant how they treat everyone else who isn't on a bike, tbh.",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists and it's for a simple reason. They think they can do whatever the hell they want. They switch between a pedestrian, a cyclist and a vehicle deciding on the fly whatever rules they feel like following with no accountability. \nOne minute they are skipping traffic, then they are deciding to cross at a crosswalk instead of following traffic. And the sidewalks are bike lanes if that's more convenient.",
">\n\nI just get annoyed because they will ride double wide on a tight street, forcing you to go 60mph in a 45, on the opposite side of traffic, risking a head on collision. And yea, you have to do that, because otherwise cars behind you will start driving aggressive as well as the fact that your expecting all the cars to go at a bikes speed on the road.",
">\n\nThat's because every country except for the Netherlands and Denmark have shit bicycle infrastructure.",
">\n\nI civilised countries we have cycling paths and cycling on the street is also possible as drivers aren't insane. So this seems rather like a problem of poor urban planning than cyclists in general.",
">\n\nWhere I live the cyclists just refuse to take the bikelane and either block the traffic because the rather use the street or they decide to use the pedestrian side of the sidewalk. The frickin bikelane is as big as the pedestrian one. There is no excuse not to use it and they still won't! One of them almost hit me if I hadn't dodge it. If the cyclist only drove a few inches to the left there would have been a bikelane and it wouldn't happened. Of course the person didn't apologize and just cursed at me.",
">\n\nBike gutters are awful and less safe than taking the lane. Assholes park in the bike lanes ALL THE TIME. Plus no one ever looks behind them when getting out pf their car so getting smacked by a door is a real danger. Drivers are entitled but it’s not their fault it’s the way we’ve built society to allow and expect them to be.\nETA: next time you’re driving around take a count how many people you see pulled over or parked in a bike gutter.",
">\n\nCompletely agree - I was ran over almost 3 times in Berlin. \nAnd every single time I checked before crossing - but they just suddenly spawned right in the way",
">\n\nDid you cross at a designated crosswalk? As a cyclist the amount of times people just randomly meander across an active street instead of going to the zebra/lollipop crossing, and then get angry at me when I have to swerve out the way/ brake is comical.",
">\n\nMan, y'all are sad people. \n\"Get off the road!\" Okay, now we are on the sidewalk. \n\"Get off the sidewalk!\" Back in the road again. \n\"They need to ring their bells so we know they're coming! Btw I hate it when they ring their bells so I know they're coming.\"",
">\n\nI hate cyclists like that. I don’t have a car so my bike is my main source of transportation and I don’t ride like that. So far, from what I’ve noticed in my area, I’m the only one that follows the damn rules in my city xD",
">\n\nNo matter where you are and who you are… driver or walker, scooter or flyer… we ALL hate cyclists.",
">\n\nI feel ya. The only thing I hate more than cyclists is electric scooters.",
">\n\nCompletely agree! A cycling license (similar to driving) should be required. Far too many cyclist who doesn’t know (and those who don’t just give a F) about traffic rules.",
">\n\nI completely agree! Cyclists have a lot of rights on the roads, and are very vocal about them, but think they can do whatever the fuck they want at roundabouts and pedestrian crossings.",
">\n\nIt just fascinates me how anyone can walk or drive through a city and genuinely think that bicycles are the problem. Look around you at every turn there are cars jamming the roads. Parked blocking things. Blocking pavements. Driving aggressively. Speeding. Failing to stop. Polluting the air. If they hit you, you are seriously injured or dead. This happens in the thousands. The city absolutely revolves around them.",
">\n\nYou are 100% right. Except I didn't say bicycles are the problem. I said i hate them. I said fuck cars too. I also said bicycles are one of the best alternative for trafic jam in cities.\nCities in Europe weren't made for cars nor bikes. So the problem is the fucking lazy greedy people who decide how to spend our tax money. The problem is people thinking they are all alone on the street. The problem is how stressed everybody is and how it become dangerous.\nNot because I hate how cyclists take revenge from drivers bullies to pedestrians makes me hate a transportation model itself.",
">\n\nIt just seems odd that people can really harp on about cyclists when they are such a trivial issue. Posts like this can get hundreds of replies. People tend to make excuses about cars.",
">\n\nYou just insulted a whole country.",
">\n\nThe Netherlands? It's ok",
">\n\nOk",
">\n\nI judge the actions of the individual not the mode of transport. I find it produces more accurate results.",
">\n\nApparently \"individuals alone are responsible for their own actions\" is the real unpopular opinion here.",
">\n\nIndeed 😀",
">\n\nAs a car driver I also hate cyclists. Saw one on a 45mph the other day despite there being a sidewalk AND a bikelane",
">\n\n45 mph isn't a speed for bike lane or sidewalk. Street is",
">\n\nas a cyclist, I hate pedestrians.\nMy city put in these nice protected bicycle lanes so bikes don't have to ride inches from cars, and boy don't those pedestrians just LOVE using the bike lane as a queuing up spot for the crosswalks. it's just so nice and convenient to get 5 more feet closer to your goal, isn't it? Those bicycles can stop and wait...and feel free to swear at them like THEY are the ones in the wrong.\nBicycles and pedestrians are natural enemies, that's never going to change. There can be only one.",
">\n\nLET'S END THIS NOW !!!!!",
">\n\nanyplace but Holy Ground.",
">\n\ndon't blame all bicyclists for the shitty ones.\nthat would be like saying every person who drives a car is an asshole. or every person who walks on the sidewalk is an asshole.\nsome people are good at getting around. other people are jerks. don't blame everyone for the actions of a small subset of people.",
">\n\nI mean, isn’t that the sentiment over that the popular sub r/fuckcars? The generalization is already being perpetuated from cyclists and “urbanists” in their war against cars.",
">\n\nNot really. That sub mostly hates the focus on cars when designing infrastructure, as well as the forced dependency on cars in our modern world. Not individual drivers.",
">\n\nSure about that? It’s mostly just a bitch-fest about driver errors to further their political agenda.",
">\n\nYea, I'm pretty sure.",
">\n\nReally weird way to get there if that’s the case. Alienating a large portion of the population (car drivers, car riders, people that depend on vehicles for the delivery of goods and services) is not how you get them on your side.",
">\n\nI don't think that's their goal in the first place. It's just a reddit sub.",
">\n\nEspecially when they have a stupid fucking bell and say \"on the left\" then proceed to be on the right side of the trail running into you",
">\n\nHahahha \"is he coming on the left or should i go on the lef...\" BANG!!",
">\n\nGF lives in a college town. It’s as if there’s some kinda fuckin’ death wish among the student cycling population",
">\n\nAs a [insert anyone, including cyclist], I hate cyclists.",
">\n\nPeople don't wanna hear it when it comes from automobilists because \"gngn cars are more dangerous and drivers are entitled\" but reality is cyclists are just the worst. Whether I'm on foot, driving a car, or riding a bicycle myself, cyclists are always always the ones being absolute public hazards. Heck, when I'm on my bike and stop at the stop sign on a cycle lane to let the cars go, they look at me as if I'm jesus or something. They even try to let me pass first because of how used they are to cyclists who just can't be bothered to respect the damn stop sign.",
">\n\nThe problem isn't the cyclists here, it's the lacking infrastructure.",
">\n\nWe shouldn't have to build infrastructure so people can partake in recreation. I find that comment extremely arrogant. Why on earth do cyclists deserve to have their recreation glorified and catered to??",
">\n\nRecreation? Ah yes, cycling is only for recreation.",
">\n\nWell, where I live that I'd the ONLY purpose. I'm 17 miles from any city municipality. Nobody is biking here to go to the grocery store or work.",
">\n\nNot everything is about you personally.",
">\n\nTo me, it is, and should be. My concern is around how cyclists inconvenience me while I'm trying to be a productive member of society. I feel like that's a fair critique.",
">\n\nYou are mad that cyclists inconvenience you yet you reject dedicated infrastructure as a solution. Do you think cyclists should be banned off the road completely?",
">\n\nThe real issue here is lacking cycling infrastructure.",
">\n\nDefinitely a major issue.\nBut part of the issue is definitely cyclists who prioritize their own speed over the safety and welfare of everyone around them. It's like they are all BMW drivers, deep down, and just don't want to yield to or slow down for anyone.",
">\n\nI'm sure there are, assholes exist in all vehicle types.",
">\n\nCyclists know thar neither the pavement nor the road are theirs because motorists and pedestrians like you are both screaming at them all the time. And I swear you'd be angrier if they didn't give a polite warning that they're coming toward you. \nCyclists who breeze through crossings instead of stopping are a minority, much like cyclists are a minority in general, and you can't judge an entire group that aren't adequately represented",
">\n\nFuck traveling in general",
">\n\nYa. Where are our transporters! \nSorry had to go full nerd.",
">\n\nI see posts like this constantly. It blows my mind people can just choose one thing that is so insignificant to scapegoat. \nThey assume people on bikes don’t also walk, drive, etc like we are essentially subhuman for doing exercise / running errands in this way because they are inconvenienced for a few seconds. You realize we are human like you , right?\nPeople tell us to ride bicycles on the sidewalk when it’s illegal while others say not too. It’s usually against the law.\nThey tell us to ride closer to the right side of the road , so we get hit by a car door and yelled at again. \nThey’re mad that we give a verbal signal that we’re coming up on the left even though that’s the law. \nNow that I’m in Colorado I’m getting yelled at for the Idaho stop, which is completely legal. We yield to stop signs and temporarily stop at red lights only if it’s clear. It’s all to REDUCE CAR TRAFFIC. \nKeep in mind we are riding bicycles which in its own right REDUCES CAR TRAFFIC. \n80% of car trips are within 3 miles from your house. Everyone that rides a bike keeps you from being stuck behind them in traffic for longer then the 20 seconds you’re currently inconvenienced. It’s also mean parking closer to the front door of a shop. \nSo far I’ve had family members die from hit and runs and drunk drivers, but somehow cyclists are the most dangerous thing on the road today?! It’s not adding up.\nWhat is this really about?",
">\n\nI'm sorry for your losses. I never said bikers are the most dangerous things on the road. Saying this would be stupid. The problem in my city is the lack of respect from cyclists to pedestrians in a general way. I'm not even talking about drivers against EVERYTHING ON THE STREET.",
">\n\nI go out of my way to be respectful to everybody, and I’ve had nothing but kindness and respect from other cyclists .\nYou wanna blame everybody on a bicycle for all your problems when it’s really just about a few people who disrespected you. \nCyclists are drivers, walkers, etc. do they just jump on a bicycle and instantly become disrespectful?\nStill doesn’t make any logical sense.",
">\n\nDude you just don't get it.. i understand biking is your life.. but come on.\nI use to bike 40km per day to work. \nI don't have problems with people jumping on bikes. I simply hate the ones that are disrespectful.\nIs it too hard to understand? Just me venting coz I feel like a lot of bikers think they are on top of the citizen pyramid? \nI'm not venting about the system here, nor about cars.. just about some (yes some) bikers.\nAnd please there is no need to beg for upvotes on fuckcars how old are you?",
">\n\nI bet your fat.",
">\n\nOf course I fart !",
">\n\nTo you yours and to mine mine; I hate car users and their ilk who are filled with wonton waste and hate for all else who dare travel near them. I stop at all lights, halt for all signs, use a mirror, lights, and hand signals, pull over for cars coming my way so long as there is any room, and use what little biking infrastructure is available to me.\nMy taxes are waste and paid in folly for they assuredly go in portion to your reckless use of a powerful machine and not to my own reckless use of a small self-propelled stick on two wheels to separate lanes and keep them maintained. No, no, I must settle for the gutter and cry glee for that and be ashamed to move to the sidewalk when it suddenly ends and continues a block later down the road. \nFuck your car, your roads, and your selfish desire to pave the world and create cities with 60% of their coverage dedicated to driving a car, parking a car, and separating the world into places for cars and otherwise. You who drive faster and faster, in bigger and bigger cars. I loath you as you loath mine.",
">\n\nI wouldn’t hate cyclists if they didn’t act like road laws don’t apply to em in the city where I live. I’ve seen cyclists not even stop at red lights even with an almost full intersection, and ride the wrong way down one ways.\nEdit: I do wish the city where I live had more bike lanes but yeah.",
">\n\nIf you're going to hate someone, maybe hate the people actually doing those things.\nIf I see someone on a bike rush through a short break on a red light in an otherwise busy intersection, I shake my head and think they are an idiot. I think this while waiting for the light to turn green on my bike.\nSimilarly, when a car illegally stops in a bike lane (which happens ALL THE TIME by the way), I don't turn around and blame the cars moving along legally in the adjacent lane.",
">\n\nPedestrian are the worst.\nWhen i started using bicicle I was very polite: brake, ring, ask for permission. And what the large amount of people do? Ignore u, watch u in the eyes and take a step in the fucking middle of the trail (many many times! for real!), shout at you just because u exist. So.... At some point is fuck you all, I'm coming go out of the way. That's it",
">\n\n\nI will never drive nor park on a bike lane, always look into the mirror to be careful of one of you monkeys. So why can't you be careful when us peasants are walking?\n\nThis is dumb. Obviously there are plenty of cyclists who are careful and courteous about your safety. That's part of what a bell or \"watch out!\" (generally \"On your left\") is doing for you. And just because you are courteous to them doesn't mean everyone is. Is every driver a douchebag just because some of them crowd cyclists when and where the cyclist has the right to the road? No.",
">\n\nThe difference here is that generally car drivers are going to be held accountable for bad driving. This is in the form of dash cams, ANPR and red light cameras which catch drivers doing bad things and they can receive a fine or points on their licence. Cyclists currently can't be held accountable if they jump red lights or hit a car or pedestrian as there isn't anything that helps identify them. This is a big issue in cities. I live and work in London and see many cyclists jumping red lights and weaving around pedestrians crossing. Cars can't do this as most traffic lights have red light cameras that would catch this.\nDrivers as a collective (including me) are in no way perfect or even held to account 100% of the time, but I believe we need a system for cyclists to be held accountable too",
">\n\nYour way of thinking, while perfectly rational and natural, is outdated. Traffic law enforcement, like any other law enforcement, is less about the enforcement, and more about the prevention. Where I live, speed and red light cameras are clearly marked ahead so that the people who'd normally break the law follow it instead, making punishment unnecessary. \nSame could be done with cyclists. Sure, you could make every cyclist install a license plate, require a \"cycling license\", or install expensive cameras with facial identification software, but how about just make it so cyclists aren't incentivised to break the law in the first place? \nMake more useful cycling infrastructure, and more cyclists will use it. Make that infrastructure intersect with foot and motor traffic more safely and less often, and less collisions will happen.",
">\n\nI completely understand your point. However, a lot of money has gone into my local area for cycling infrastructure that most cyclists are using, but many are still choosing to break the rules as the rules are inconvenient. The infrastructure is not enough, there needs to be an incentive NOT to break the rules.\nIf you take a look at Chiswick High Road in London, England. They have created segregated cycle lanes from the traffic. These cycle lanes have their own lights and crossings to keep them safe from cars. However many cyclists just ignore the lights and just keep going into pedestrians. There is no punishment for them doing this as they can't be tracked. Personally I think every cyclist should have to register their bike (make it free to help encourage this) and then a new form of ANPR used to also catch cyclists in the act",
">\n\nPersonally I'd have no problem registering my bike for free, especially if I could use that same registration if it gets stolen, but registering something as mechanically simple and cheap as a bicycle is, in my opinion difficult if not impossible to do without making the bike mechanically complex and expensive, at which point most people would just switch to scooters.\nI don't live in London, but from what I've heard, by far the biggest threat in the city is still motorized traffic, namely cars and lorries, and so until that problem is no longer a problem, I wouldn't really do anything special about bikes. Maybe put some undercover bike cops near the most dangerous bike path/lane intersections to catch a few offenders and make an example out of them, but that's about it.",
">\n\nMost cars I’ve driven came equipped with brakes and a steering wheel. I don’t see the problem",
">\n\nA common take and a stupid one.\nThere are good and bad drivers, pedestrians, and cyclists. Hating any of them as a group because some of them do bad things is just dumb.",
">\n\nIf you followed the laws and stayed out of the bike lane as a pedestrian there would be no problem.",
">\n\nIf bicyclists followed the laws and stopped ignoring street signs/traffic lights there would be no problem.",
">\n\nDon’t see how this address the problem with pedestrians in bike lanes.",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Drivers pedestrians other cyclists. They're a scourge.",
">\n\nEvery word of this is pure wisdom.",
">\n\nAs a car driver, I too hate cyclists.\nI don't care who has 'right of way'. I'm in a car, you're not. If we collide, regardless of fault, you're the one that dies.\nDo you really want to die on the hill that says \"i can bike on the rode b/c it's legal\"?\nI might be in jail, but you're still dead.\nBikes don't belong on public roads. Unless there's a bike lane - aka, a pathway designed specifically for bikers.\nIt's FAR SAFER to bike on the sidewalk.",
">\n\nBe careful you’ll anger r/fuckcars",
">\n\nI recently got a bike in Japan and there isn't any room on the street to ride my bike. Most people are fine when I'm on the sidewalk, however, the worst ones are groups of 2 or more who try and take up as much space as possible allowing nobody to pass. Same with the people who constantly switch between the left and right side of the sidewalk. It's really annoying to see how little spacial awareness they have.",
">\n\nCyclists on the road don’t have to pass the same test as vehicles on the road, which is why they are so bad. If there was a test in order to cycle on the road then i think it would be alot better",
">\n\nWhy do you hate all cyclists when only some of them are rude/dangerous?",
">\n\nCope hehe"
] |
>
As an occasional cyclist, I don't like you either.
|
[
"I road cycled for years, I always followed the street rules. Always. Red light means red light. \nI have so many cycling friends who get into accidents and other conflicts with drivers, and yet they think it’s stupid to stop at a red light. They just don’t connect these two things",
">\n\nMost bikers I encounter are complete idiots. Like I'd be driving normally and out of nowhere comes a biker on a crosswalk in full speed. Now, I appreciate bikers who actually stop and make eye contact with me as I'm driving towards the crosswalk but man, it's either that or the biker almost dies because I have no time to brake.\nAnd what's up with all the bikers going like 5 kmh IN THE MIDDLE of a road when there's a dedicated sidewalk for bikers right next to them? Drives me insane.",
">\n\nIt seems like most bikers because of observation bias.\nIf you follow the rules as you should, you’re unmemorable.\nAs for the sidewalks - its actually less safe on the sidewalk.",
">\n\nInteresting. Dangerous situations are more valuable to remember, and I remember tons of irresponsible bikers. It is in fact observation bias. But I'm always happy to see those who pay close attention to traffic, and I do remeber some of them aswell.",
">\n\nWell the same goes for driving. How many cars do you remember when they haven’t done anything? But you tend to remember the ones who do something dumb",
">\n\nYeah it can be applied to anything really.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist in one of the most bike-dense cities in the world, I hate cyclists too. If I could avoid getting myself hurt, I’d be ramming at least ten of them a day just to teach a lesson about ignoring rules and common sense.",
">\n\nAmsterdam? Copenhagen?",
">\n\nCopenhagen. It’s a wonderful bike city but the people are incredibly self-centered.",
">\n\nI had high expectations from cyclists when I first visited the city, after all it is heralded as a cycling paradise and, well, let’s say it looked a lot more like the rest of the world and mainly because of the personal behavior of cyclists.\nMy local friend justified it, stating that it’s because danish are more temperamental than all other Scandinavians: an explanation that I really didn’t know what to do with…",
">\n\nIf “temperamental” means “a bunch of egotistical [insert unflattering body part]”, he’s right.",
">\n\nYou make it sound like a war zone. I live in Copenhagen and most of the time biking around the city is very pleasant. Except for the food delivery scooters, they can 🤬 off.",
">\n\nI guess it depends on how often and where you’re going. If you have places to be each and every day and want to get there effectively, people ignoring general rules and courtesies of the road are a pain. If you’re one of the types listening to podcasts with a latte in one hand and a phone in the other just trudging along, it’s probably fine.",
">\n\nSame! I love walking. Where I live on popular trails, there are bike lanes, but the cyclists will just ride wherever they. They don’t care and won’t let you know they’re coming. They’ll get pissy if you don’t just automatically know they’re coming up from behind you. If you do much as step foot in the bike lane, they get mad, but have no problems riding side by side outside the bike lane.",
">\n\nSame here! So much for my pleasant walk on the beautiful Trail. They sneak up and when they're almost on top of me, a loud voice yells \"On your left!\" They startle the shit out of me and cause me to jump sky high! 😡",
">\n\nIt’s literally the law to say that. This thread is all about hating them no matter if they follow the law or not.",
">\n\nIs it possible to do that without sneaking up on them and startling the shit out of them by yelling real loud? And then cutting is close to them as you possibly can without hitting them?",
">\n\nHello. \nMy useless comment to this post is here :D\nSo, i work in the accidents department of a big insurance company. My country is very strickt about the road rules, meaning:\nOur company estimates (is this the right word?) that around 82% of accidents involving cyclists, are to blame on the cyclist. Since there are expecific places on the road for you to ride your bike, even if it's not a bike lane.\nI remember a case where 3 dudes were just cycling, outside of town and they were literally on the middle of the road. the place where they were is full of curves and has very little visibility, so they were riding side by side, middle of the road, comes a car, hits not one, but the 3 of them because they scared the person and she just swerved the car.\nThey sued her and us (insurance) 2 times. Lost both and had to pay for all damage done on the car by their own bodys",
">\n\nThis sounds like something that happened near by my home town, are you in Ontario?",
">\n\nno XD portugal",
">\n\nGod its so much worse that it's happened in multiple places.\nIn ours I think the driver killed one of the cyclists, then sued the family for emotional damage",
">\n\nMy biggest gripe about cyclists is that there is always some danger when you encounter them on the road, either as a pedestrian or motorist. Now, part of it isn’t their fault. At least here in the US, not much of the infrastructure is made for bicycles. But cyclists are constantly breaking the rules of the road (or sidewalk) to get where they’re going faster. Blowing red lights, leaving the bike lane to use the sidewalk, splitting lanes. I always clench a little when I approach one, wondering if this is the day I can’t get out of the way.",
">\n\nWe have that same problem, but then a million times worse, because I live in The Netherlands. You probably know about our proud cycling culture (the Amsterdam stereotype). And yes, cyclists here are just as bad as the ones you describe, but there’s a lot more of them here. And oh yeah, traffic laws are almost always in their favor.",
">\n\nI found driving in the towns of the Netherlands so hard. Not just because I was on the wrong side of the road 😉 but because I just wasn’t used to sooo many cyclists coming from all directions, always faster than me and passing on both sides. Even as I was signalling to leave a roundabout at one point about three cyclists rode past on the inside. I really struggled to keep up with them all, which of course means I drove slower and thus even more bikes passed me!",
">\n\nYes that is of course very difficult, however as a Dutchman I’m used to cyclists, so of course we struggle a lot less. But that doesn’t take away from the fact that cyclists do cause a lot of issues because of their careless behavior, and because as drivers we have to accommodate them. That one sided ‘deal’ that we have makes it very difficult to deal with them.\nAll in all I’m happy we have so many cyclists as it’s good for the environment. But the utopian mindset of cyclists being a gift to the world is just stupid. Especially when you consider that mostly Americans who drive on wide open roads with barely any cyclists around are the ones praising cyclists in my country all the time. Also, cyclists annoy the hell out of pedestrians as well, so it’s not just about motorists.",
">\n\nCyclists treat red lights like stop signs and stop signs like yield signs (at best). They’re not allowed on sidewalks but do it anyway. Fuckin hate cyclists.",
">\n\nEverything you said is completely legal in Denver and sidewalks are illegal , but drivers constantly scream at cyclists to ride there",
">\n\nCyclist can roll stop signs and run red lights in Denver? What the fuck?",
">\n\nI’d have no problem if cyclist had respect for other road users. where I live there are cycle lanes, but most cyclists are on the road or pavements, they ignore red lights etc. \nIf you want to cycle please make it’s safe for yourself and others around you.",
">\n\nExactly my thoughts",
">\n\nHonestly, selfish assholes exist everywhere but a selfish asshole on a bicycle does a lot less damage than a selfish asshole in a car. \nEDIT: OP's also downvoting everyone who disagrees with him, just fyi.",
">\n\nAs a pedestrian, I hate everyone who's not a pedestrian... And some pedestrians too.",
">\n\nThere's a reason so many cyclists die each year, they all seem to pick and choose which laws they want to follow. Its always safer to assume they'll do whatever they want and everyone else needs to adapt to them.",
">\n\nAs a driver downtown, I don't worry at all about pedestrians at intersections, I can turn my head and assume they will be maybe five feet closer to my car when I look back, (and I trust they won't sprint towards me when I look away, at their own peril), but bikes, they ride so fast, that in the short time I turn my head to check for oncoming traffic, a bike could materialize right beside / infront me, and I risk hitting them or them hitting the side of my car. And that's even in their designated bike lane, that I have to pass through to clear the intersection. And if I drive into a ped at three miles per hour, they will just hit my hood with their fist and call me a stupid motherfucker, or whatever makes them feel justice was served, but if I bump the bike, it will be a big crash, the bicyclist will be all curled up in a ball on the ground, I'll be the bad guy in the eyes of the law and anyone nearby, and I'll probably be late as fuck to wherever it is I'm trying to go to.",
">\n\nI skateboard so I guess I'm good",
">\n\nJust don’t inconvenience narcissistic car drivers by a few seconds.",
">\n\nI think everyone hates cyclists. Cyclists included.",
">\n\nAs a driver, I hate you both",
">\n\nPedestrians are literally the worst. Anyone who has to walk more than 20 feet a day and not to their car are complete losers, and should be jailed on site.",
">\n\nOK, I think that's a bit extreme. But hey, if you're running for public office I'll vote for you. \nI do have to wonder anytime I see someone that I know has the mental faculties to drive who is walking. Usually assume too many DUI's.",
">\n\nr/fuckcars ripping out their hair rn",
">\n\nNot unpopular.\n Everyone hates cyclists.",
">\n\nI casually cycle in the summer. If I'm on a trail, I'll slow down and ring my bell if I see pedestrians, or stop and dismount if there's a lot of people or they don't notice me. Especially on the narrow trails in this woodlot I sometimes go to. \nThe problem is a lot of cyclists, especially in North America, but perhaps other places, just aren't respectful of others. They demand car drivers \"share the road\", but then ride in huge packs, lane split, don't signal turns, run stop signs and red lights, weave in and out of traffic, boot up busy sidewalks at 15-20mph, refuse to use provided bike lanes, etc. There's like a gross sense of entitlement in the cycling community. Dude, you're still a vehicle. There's rules that apply to you, just like there are for cars and motorcycles. Big problem is difficulty/lack of enforcement. Cops have to catch them in the act. Even then they're slippery devils since they're usually more mobile than a cruiser or beat cop on foot. This is why I support plating bikes to make them easily identifiable.",
">\n\n\nThere's like a gross sense of entitlement in the cycling community. Dude, you're still a vehicle. There's rules that apply to you, just like there are for cars and motorcycles.\n\nThat is the problem right there. They want to be treated equal to car owners, yet they do not abide by traffic rules, hence all the accidents.",
">\n\nAs a driver, I concur.",
">\n\nI hate bikers on trails. They're supposed to stop and let hikers by but they never do. They go by so freakin' fast too. It's like come on now!",
">\n\nAs a mostly former cyclist, I often hated cyclists too. Mostly, because so many cyclist are just competitive asshats that suck the pleasure out of their own bike ride by making everything about speed. Like, heaven forbid they have to slow and yield to anyone.\nOnce, I was riding my bicycle with my young daughter on a bike path in the city. A couple cyclist came up and got all pissy at us, saying we need to be out of the cycle lane because we were going too slow and my 8 year old kid wasn't keeping to a narrow lane. It was so hostile - my kid started crying.\nBut that is just so typical, all the time. I've gotten yelled out a few times when I made a full, foot down stop at a redlight because the cyclist behind me was expecting me to either run the redlight or at least go into the crosswalk and dance around (like they do) until it went green. I remember nearly getting run over by cyclists all the time, and yelled at if I was going too slow.\nThat being said, we need to do 100,000 x more in the US towards making bike paths, protected bike lanes, etc., because cyling is a truly great way to get around and I miss it. I just don't miss the self-centered asshats that dominate the cycling community.",
">\n\nThis!",
">\n\nI’ve nothing against cyclists as a group. I prefer to hate all people who do stupid things whether they’re in cars, on bikes or walking. Went to pick my daughter up tonight and counted six cyclists in the dark wearing all black with no lights at all plus one with a light so weak I didn’t see it until I was nearly past him. Tonight it was dumb cyclists, but tomorrow it might be idiots in cars. Hate the idiots not the method of transportation.",
">\n\nTrue !",
">\n\nOMG YES !! I completely agree. Every time i tried to explain this to a friend, they would always look at me like I am crazy for thinking such a thing. But as I walk for 45 minutes every days, it became a reality you can't ignore... I can't count how many times I nearly got hit by a cyclist, it happens every other week. I am starting to think that cyclists should have to go through a \"course\" to learn the basics of using the streets x)\n(Sorry for mistakes, not native here 'x) )",
">\n\nThis is my story lol..",
">\n\nYes, and it also is my personal experience, which is why I posted this..?",
">\n\nYes I totally agree. Just saying \"that's my life\" :) happening in Brussels tho",
">\n\nMy bad x) welp France here, it amazes me in a really bad way how this seems to be such a common phenomenon literaly EVERYWHERE",
">\n\nJ'ai roulé en vélo à Paris et laisse tomber l'enfer que c'était. J'avais l'impression d'avancer avec des oies qui insultaient tout le monde. BAa bAAA BAaaAa !!! \nLe problème c'est que plus les gens sont stressés (même les piétons... Genre dans le metro) plus ils se haïssent et ce matin j'avais la haine sur les vélos.. en vrai j'ai la haine sur tous les citadins haha",
">\n\nas a cyclist I hate everyone",
">\n\nSame, I see posts like this where people tell us to ride on the sidewalk when it’s illegal. \nThey assume we don’t walk anywhere, drive, etc like we are essentially subhuman for doing exercise.\nThey tell us to ride closer to the right side of the road so we get hit by a car door. \nThey’re mad that we give a verbal signal that we’re coming up on the left even though that’s the law. \nnow that I’m in Colorado I’m getting yelled at for the Idaho stop, which is completely legal. We yield to stop signs and temporarily stop at red light only till it’s clear. It’s all to REDUCE CAR TRAFFIC.\nSo far I’ve had family members die from hit and runs and drunk drivers, but somehow cyclists are the most dangerous thing on the road today.\nWhat is this really about?",
">\n\nI loathe cyclists. Selfish, entitled lycra lunatics.",
">\n\nBe honest, do you realize that it's possible to ride a bicycle and not be selfish, or entitled, or a lunatic, or not wear lycra?",
">\n\nThis thread is such a circlejerk, it's ridiculous.",
">\n\nThat's what I'm here for",
">\n\nIt's because cycling isn't regulated like motor vehicles are but they still get on the roads unlike pedestrians. So they don't have knowledge on the rules of the road that drivers have.\nThere's also some sort of hypocrisy they have where they believe drivers should give way to them because bikes are more vulnerable than cars while expecting pedestrians to give way to them because they're moving faster.",
">\n\n\nSo they don't have knowledge on the rules of the road\n\nPlenty do. Many cyclists also are automobilists. They just feel like they're exempted from respecting trafic rules because it's tiring to stop and go on a bike and they're slower an lighter than cars.",
">\n\nSure you got hit by a truck, but at least you managed to save yourself a little time and avoid waiting for a few seconds. Is what I'd say if they didn't then end up in the hospital",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists, as it should be.",
">\n\nCyclists shouldn’t be on sidewalks",
">\n\nI also cringe a lot when I see the international Reddit community constantly praise us Dutch people for our biking culture. People have no idea how many traffic accidents we get that could have been avoided if we didn’t have cyclists EVERYWHERE who are barely aware of the traffic rules that also apply to them.\nPeople have no idea about how cyclists are almost always right according to our traffic laws, which makes them much more reckless. They cause millions of dollars of damage to cars (and pedestrians) each year, and barely ever face consequences for their irresponsible and reckless behavior in traffic.\nPeople don’t see how cyclists often block traffic because they like to cycle next to each other in pairs, and if you honk they get angry and sometimes even aggressive and try to break your side mirror if they feel like it.\nMany intersections have bicycle lanes that you need to check when making a turn when driving, even though the intersection is already super busy with lots of cars. And guess what, cyclists still ride around fast and recklessly and making sure you don’t hit another car, cyclist AND pedestrian is all the job of one single driver.\nSo all in all, people from countries where driving is a relatively easy and chill thing to do, praise cycling culture in other countries. Try to drive here in busy traffic with thousands of cars AND (RECKLESS) CYCLISTS on the road and then tell me what it’s like.",
">\n\nIt would be much easier to sympathize with cars drivers if they did not need like 60% of the entire transit space leaving cyclists and pedestrians very little.\n\neven though the intersection is already super busy with lots of cars\n\nOfc, because cars are so large and need so much space.",
">\n\nI get that, but why is that my fault? I don’t do the city planning. Besides, cars are much larger than bicycles, so doesn’t it make sense there’s more space needed for cars than for bicycles?\nBut even then, if you don’t want to have any sympathy for motorists, because city planners give them more space than others, that’s just weird. It’s not the motorist’s fault.",
">\n\n\ndoesn’t it make sense there’s more space needed for cars than for bicycles?\n\nWhy a valuable and scarce resource such as the public space in cities should be used predominantly to benefit car users while barring everyone else? \nI just find it much harder to sympathize with the privileged group.",
">\n\nBecause people need to be able to go from A to B?",
">\n\nSo do pedestrians/public transport users/cyclists. But they don't require so much space per person.",
">\n\nWell in The Netherlands public transportation takes up an enormous amount of space and cyclists have their own dedicated lanes almost everywhere. Also motorists have to give public transportation space as we usually have to stop for trams and buses to pass, according to traffic rules. Guess who doesn’t often follow those rules: cyclists.\nHowever, public transportation itself is super busy and unbelievably expensive in The Netherlands. It costs more than 20 Euros to travel ~70 kilometers. That’s why a lot of people still prefer to have a car, and cars simply need infrastructure.\nSo I don’t really get your point. Cars, bicycles and public transportation all get a fair portion of the space that’s available.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist, i hate pedestrians. Here in Germany, there is bike lanes, one part for bikes and one for pedestrians on traffic lights... etc. But the pedestrians just ignore them, form \"walls\" of people blocking the bike lane, dont look while crossing the bike lane. Even cars repect us more than you.",
">\n\nThis I understand. Experienced the same in Denmark",
">\n\nClaaaaaarksoooooonnnnn",
">\n\nIdk about other places but here cyclists are constantly breaking the law and never getting ticketed for it. It makes no sense to me. I don’t think it’d make a huge difference but I do think some cyclists would think twice about disregarding the rules if those rules were actually enforced.",
">\n\nI get the sentiment. My feeling is the root cause is they don’t have their own infrastructure. Cars and peds do. So cyclists are always forced into a non ideal path. \nI’m aware they have rights to the road but cars and bikes really struggle to share an infrastructure clearly made for cars. \nSo if we invest in cycling infrastructure everyone would probably be happier.",
">\n\ndoubt it. In my city there is an asphalt bike path for miles that is like 8 feet wide. Smooth. No stop signs. Do they use it? nope they get their collective ass out on the street and I honestly don't have a clue why.\nIt defies logic. Safter, smooth, not cars/trunks, etc. Here they are out on the street just fiddle farting down a 45 mph road like they own it with a bike path 15 feet away with no one on it. The last guy I asked said \"It is my road as well you know\" that I ran up on while I was at a crossing while riding on the path myself. I just gave up trying to understand. Someone dies on that road every couple of months from bike or pedestrian strike with a vehicle. It was the whole reason they built the path....",
">\n\nWell in my experience there are 2 thing going on there.\na) Often bikers will avoid the path because peds often share or walk across those paths and their speed is closer to that of a car than a ped or \nb) If they are commuting...the path likely isn't going exactly where they need to.\nAs to your specific scenario I don't doubt there are bikers that are hard headed and stubborn. I know a few of those. But generally I do bikers using the infrastructure where we have built it.",
">\n\nThere's an accident here involving @ car running over a cyclist who crossed a red traffic light. And guess who take the blame?",
">\n\nLaughs in being dutch",
">\n\nIt is regrettable that a handful of asshole cyclists ruins everyone’s opinion of us. It really undermines the support needed to improve infrastructure for cycling. \nIf it is any help, when i ring my bell, I am doing so to avoid the alternatives of either yelling a warning or startling people. I normally exit the path and pass on the grass. I would say that most cyclist are the same. I don’t want you to get out of the way, I want you to know I am there. \nBut it only takes a couple assholes that think they own the path or the street. I have a cousin like this and it is difficult to convince him his is wrong and is putting himself and others in danger.",
">\n\nI think the a-holes are people that are only on a bike because it's the easiest thing for them, living where they do. You and those like you are on the bike because you love cycling.",
">\n\nI live in Portland, OR, and the cyclists here are so fucking rude and entitled.",
">\n\nI live in not-Portland OR and visited once. I biked down the road. Could not believe how nice everyone was to me. Probably because they could tell I’m an outsider.",
">\n\nI meant how they treat everyone else who isn't on a bike, tbh.",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists and it's for a simple reason. They think they can do whatever the hell they want. They switch between a pedestrian, a cyclist and a vehicle deciding on the fly whatever rules they feel like following with no accountability. \nOne minute they are skipping traffic, then they are deciding to cross at a crosswalk instead of following traffic. And the sidewalks are bike lanes if that's more convenient.",
">\n\nI just get annoyed because they will ride double wide on a tight street, forcing you to go 60mph in a 45, on the opposite side of traffic, risking a head on collision. And yea, you have to do that, because otherwise cars behind you will start driving aggressive as well as the fact that your expecting all the cars to go at a bikes speed on the road.",
">\n\nThat's because every country except for the Netherlands and Denmark have shit bicycle infrastructure.",
">\n\nI civilised countries we have cycling paths and cycling on the street is also possible as drivers aren't insane. So this seems rather like a problem of poor urban planning than cyclists in general.",
">\n\nWhere I live the cyclists just refuse to take the bikelane and either block the traffic because the rather use the street or they decide to use the pedestrian side of the sidewalk. The frickin bikelane is as big as the pedestrian one. There is no excuse not to use it and they still won't! One of them almost hit me if I hadn't dodge it. If the cyclist only drove a few inches to the left there would have been a bikelane and it wouldn't happened. Of course the person didn't apologize and just cursed at me.",
">\n\nBike gutters are awful and less safe than taking the lane. Assholes park in the bike lanes ALL THE TIME. Plus no one ever looks behind them when getting out pf their car so getting smacked by a door is a real danger. Drivers are entitled but it’s not their fault it’s the way we’ve built society to allow and expect them to be.\nETA: next time you’re driving around take a count how many people you see pulled over or parked in a bike gutter.",
">\n\nCompletely agree - I was ran over almost 3 times in Berlin. \nAnd every single time I checked before crossing - but they just suddenly spawned right in the way",
">\n\nDid you cross at a designated crosswalk? As a cyclist the amount of times people just randomly meander across an active street instead of going to the zebra/lollipop crossing, and then get angry at me when I have to swerve out the way/ brake is comical.",
">\n\nMan, y'all are sad people. \n\"Get off the road!\" Okay, now we are on the sidewalk. \n\"Get off the sidewalk!\" Back in the road again. \n\"They need to ring their bells so we know they're coming! Btw I hate it when they ring their bells so I know they're coming.\"",
">\n\nI hate cyclists like that. I don’t have a car so my bike is my main source of transportation and I don’t ride like that. So far, from what I’ve noticed in my area, I’m the only one that follows the damn rules in my city xD",
">\n\nNo matter where you are and who you are… driver or walker, scooter or flyer… we ALL hate cyclists.",
">\n\nI feel ya. The only thing I hate more than cyclists is electric scooters.",
">\n\nCompletely agree! A cycling license (similar to driving) should be required. Far too many cyclist who doesn’t know (and those who don’t just give a F) about traffic rules.",
">\n\nI completely agree! Cyclists have a lot of rights on the roads, and are very vocal about them, but think they can do whatever the fuck they want at roundabouts and pedestrian crossings.",
">\n\nIt just fascinates me how anyone can walk or drive through a city and genuinely think that bicycles are the problem. Look around you at every turn there are cars jamming the roads. Parked blocking things. Blocking pavements. Driving aggressively. Speeding. Failing to stop. Polluting the air. If they hit you, you are seriously injured or dead. This happens in the thousands. The city absolutely revolves around them.",
">\n\nYou are 100% right. Except I didn't say bicycles are the problem. I said i hate them. I said fuck cars too. I also said bicycles are one of the best alternative for trafic jam in cities.\nCities in Europe weren't made for cars nor bikes. So the problem is the fucking lazy greedy people who decide how to spend our tax money. The problem is people thinking they are all alone on the street. The problem is how stressed everybody is and how it become dangerous.\nNot because I hate how cyclists take revenge from drivers bullies to pedestrians makes me hate a transportation model itself.",
">\n\nIt just seems odd that people can really harp on about cyclists when they are such a trivial issue. Posts like this can get hundreds of replies. People tend to make excuses about cars.",
">\n\nYou just insulted a whole country.",
">\n\nThe Netherlands? It's ok",
">\n\nOk",
">\n\nI judge the actions of the individual not the mode of transport. I find it produces more accurate results.",
">\n\nApparently \"individuals alone are responsible for their own actions\" is the real unpopular opinion here.",
">\n\nIndeed 😀",
">\n\nAs a car driver I also hate cyclists. Saw one on a 45mph the other day despite there being a sidewalk AND a bikelane",
">\n\n45 mph isn't a speed for bike lane or sidewalk. Street is",
">\n\nas a cyclist, I hate pedestrians.\nMy city put in these nice protected bicycle lanes so bikes don't have to ride inches from cars, and boy don't those pedestrians just LOVE using the bike lane as a queuing up spot for the crosswalks. it's just so nice and convenient to get 5 more feet closer to your goal, isn't it? Those bicycles can stop and wait...and feel free to swear at them like THEY are the ones in the wrong.\nBicycles and pedestrians are natural enemies, that's never going to change. There can be only one.",
">\n\nLET'S END THIS NOW !!!!!",
">\n\nanyplace but Holy Ground.",
">\n\ndon't blame all bicyclists for the shitty ones.\nthat would be like saying every person who drives a car is an asshole. or every person who walks on the sidewalk is an asshole.\nsome people are good at getting around. other people are jerks. don't blame everyone for the actions of a small subset of people.",
">\n\nI mean, isn’t that the sentiment over that the popular sub r/fuckcars? The generalization is already being perpetuated from cyclists and “urbanists” in their war against cars.",
">\n\nNot really. That sub mostly hates the focus on cars when designing infrastructure, as well as the forced dependency on cars in our modern world. Not individual drivers.",
">\n\nSure about that? It’s mostly just a bitch-fest about driver errors to further their political agenda.",
">\n\nYea, I'm pretty sure.",
">\n\nReally weird way to get there if that’s the case. Alienating a large portion of the population (car drivers, car riders, people that depend on vehicles for the delivery of goods and services) is not how you get them on your side.",
">\n\nI don't think that's their goal in the first place. It's just a reddit sub.",
">\n\nEspecially when they have a stupid fucking bell and say \"on the left\" then proceed to be on the right side of the trail running into you",
">\n\nHahahha \"is he coming on the left or should i go on the lef...\" BANG!!",
">\n\nGF lives in a college town. It’s as if there’s some kinda fuckin’ death wish among the student cycling population",
">\n\nAs a [insert anyone, including cyclist], I hate cyclists.",
">\n\nPeople don't wanna hear it when it comes from automobilists because \"gngn cars are more dangerous and drivers are entitled\" but reality is cyclists are just the worst. Whether I'm on foot, driving a car, or riding a bicycle myself, cyclists are always always the ones being absolute public hazards. Heck, when I'm on my bike and stop at the stop sign on a cycle lane to let the cars go, they look at me as if I'm jesus or something. They even try to let me pass first because of how used they are to cyclists who just can't be bothered to respect the damn stop sign.",
">\n\nThe problem isn't the cyclists here, it's the lacking infrastructure.",
">\n\nWe shouldn't have to build infrastructure so people can partake in recreation. I find that comment extremely arrogant. Why on earth do cyclists deserve to have their recreation glorified and catered to??",
">\n\nRecreation? Ah yes, cycling is only for recreation.",
">\n\nWell, where I live that I'd the ONLY purpose. I'm 17 miles from any city municipality. Nobody is biking here to go to the grocery store or work.",
">\n\nNot everything is about you personally.",
">\n\nTo me, it is, and should be. My concern is around how cyclists inconvenience me while I'm trying to be a productive member of society. I feel like that's a fair critique.",
">\n\nYou are mad that cyclists inconvenience you yet you reject dedicated infrastructure as a solution. Do you think cyclists should be banned off the road completely?",
">\n\nThe real issue here is lacking cycling infrastructure.",
">\n\nDefinitely a major issue.\nBut part of the issue is definitely cyclists who prioritize their own speed over the safety and welfare of everyone around them. It's like they are all BMW drivers, deep down, and just don't want to yield to or slow down for anyone.",
">\n\nI'm sure there are, assholes exist in all vehicle types.",
">\n\nCyclists know thar neither the pavement nor the road are theirs because motorists and pedestrians like you are both screaming at them all the time. And I swear you'd be angrier if they didn't give a polite warning that they're coming toward you. \nCyclists who breeze through crossings instead of stopping are a minority, much like cyclists are a minority in general, and you can't judge an entire group that aren't adequately represented",
">\n\nFuck traveling in general",
">\n\nYa. Where are our transporters! \nSorry had to go full nerd.",
">\n\nI see posts like this constantly. It blows my mind people can just choose one thing that is so insignificant to scapegoat. \nThey assume people on bikes don’t also walk, drive, etc like we are essentially subhuman for doing exercise / running errands in this way because they are inconvenienced for a few seconds. You realize we are human like you , right?\nPeople tell us to ride bicycles on the sidewalk when it’s illegal while others say not too. It’s usually against the law.\nThey tell us to ride closer to the right side of the road , so we get hit by a car door and yelled at again. \nThey’re mad that we give a verbal signal that we’re coming up on the left even though that’s the law. \nNow that I’m in Colorado I’m getting yelled at for the Idaho stop, which is completely legal. We yield to stop signs and temporarily stop at red lights only if it’s clear. It’s all to REDUCE CAR TRAFFIC. \nKeep in mind we are riding bicycles which in its own right REDUCES CAR TRAFFIC. \n80% of car trips are within 3 miles from your house. Everyone that rides a bike keeps you from being stuck behind them in traffic for longer then the 20 seconds you’re currently inconvenienced. It’s also mean parking closer to the front door of a shop. \nSo far I’ve had family members die from hit and runs and drunk drivers, but somehow cyclists are the most dangerous thing on the road today?! It’s not adding up.\nWhat is this really about?",
">\n\nI'm sorry for your losses. I never said bikers are the most dangerous things on the road. Saying this would be stupid. The problem in my city is the lack of respect from cyclists to pedestrians in a general way. I'm not even talking about drivers against EVERYTHING ON THE STREET.",
">\n\nI go out of my way to be respectful to everybody, and I’ve had nothing but kindness and respect from other cyclists .\nYou wanna blame everybody on a bicycle for all your problems when it’s really just about a few people who disrespected you. \nCyclists are drivers, walkers, etc. do they just jump on a bicycle and instantly become disrespectful?\nStill doesn’t make any logical sense.",
">\n\nDude you just don't get it.. i understand biking is your life.. but come on.\nI use to bike 40km per day to work. \nI don't have problems with people jumping on bikes. I simply hate the ones that are disrespectful.\nIs it too hard to understand? Just me venting coz I feel like a lot of bikers think they are on top of the citizen pyramid? \nI'm not venting about the system here, nor about cars.. just about some (yes some) bikers.\nAnd please there is no need to beg for upvotes on fuckcars how old are you?",
">\n\nI bet your fat.",
">\n\nOf course I fart !",
">\n\nTo you yours and to mine mine; I hate car users and their ilk who are filled with wonton waste and hate for all else who dare travel near them. I stop at all lights, halt for all signs, use a mirror, lights, and hand signals, pull over for cars coming my way so long as there is any room, and use what little biking infrastructure is available to me.\nMy taxes are waste and paid in folly for they assuredly go in portion to your reckless use of a powerful machine and not to my own reckless use of a small self-propelled stick on two wheels to separate lanes and keep them maintained. No, no, I must settle for the gutter and cry glee for that and be ashamed to move to the sidewalk when it suddenly ends and continues a block later down the road. \nFuck your car, your roads, and your selfish desire to pave the world and create cities with 60% of their coverage dedicated to driving a car, parking a car, and separating the world into places for cars and otherwise. You who drive faster and faster, in bigger and bigger cars. I loath you as you loath mine.",
">\n\nI wouldn’t hate cyclists if they didn’t act like road laws don’t apply to em in the city where I live. I’ve seen cyclists not even stop at red lights even with an almost full intersection, and ride the wrong way down one ways.\nEdit: I do wish the city where I live had more bike lanes but yeah.",
">\n\nIf you're going to hate someone, maybe hate the people actually doing those things.\nIf I see someone on a bike rush through a short break on a red light in an otherwise busy intersection, I shake my head and think they are an idiot. I think this while waiting for the light to turn green on my bike.\nSimilarly, when a car illegally stops in a bike lane (which happens ALL THE TIME by the way), I don't turn around and blame the cars moving along legally in the adjacent lane.",
">\n\nPedestrian are the worst.\nWhen i started using bicicle I was very polite: brake, ring, ask for permission. And what the large amount of people do? Ignore u, watch u in the eyes and take a step in the fucking middle of the trail (many many times! for real!), shout at you just because u exist. So.... At some point is fuck you all, I'm coming go out of the way. That's it",
">\n\n\nI will never drive nor park on a bike lane, always look into the mirror to be careful of one of you monkeys. So why can't you be careful when us peasants are walking?\n\nThis is dumb. Obviously there are plenty of cyclists who are careful and courteous about your safety. That's part of what a bell or \"watch out!\" (generally \"On your left\") is doing for you. And just because you are courteous to them doesn't mean everyone is. Is every driver a douchebag just because some of them crowd cyclists when and where the cyclist has the right to the road? No.",
">\n\nThe difference here is that generally car drivers are going to be held accountable for bad driving. This is in the form of dash cams, ANPR and red light cameras which catch drivers doing bad things and they can receive a fine or points on their licence. Cyclists currently can't be held accountable if they jump red lights or hit a car or pedestrian as there isn't anything that helps identify them. This is a big issue in cities. I live and work in London and see many cyclists jumping red lights and weaving around pedestrians crossing. Cars can't do this as most traffic lights have red light cameras that would catch this.\nDrivers as a collective (including me) are in no way perfect or even held to account 100% of the time, but I believe we need a system for cyclists to be held accountable too",
">\n\nYour way of thinking, while perfectly rational and natural, is outdated. Traffic law enforcement, like any other law enforcement, is less about the enforcement, and more about the prevention. Where I live, speed and red light cameras are clearly marked ahead so that the people who'd normally break the law follow it instead, making punishment unnecessary. \nSame could be done with cyclists. Sure, you could make every cyclist install a license plate, require a \"cycling license\", or install expensive cameras with facial identification software, but how about just make it so cyclists aren't incentivised to break the law in the first place? \nMake more useful cycling infrastructure, and more cyclists will use it. Make that infrastructure intersect with foot and motor traffic more safely and less often, and less collisions will happen.",
">\n\nI completely understand your point. However, a lot of money has gone into my local area for cycling infrastructure that most cyclists are using, but many are still choosing to break the rules as the rules are inconvenient. The infrastructure is not enough, there needs to be an incentive NOT to break the rules.\nIf you take a look at Chiswick High Road in London, England. They have created segregated cycle lanes from the traffic. These cycle lanes have their own lights and crossings to keep them safe from cars. However many cyclists just ignore the lights and just keep going into pedestrians. There is no punishment for them doing this as they can't be tracked. Personally I think every cyclist should have to register their bike (make it free to help encourage this) and then a new form of ANPR used to also catch cyclists in the act",
">\n\nPersonally I'd have no problem registering my bike for free, especially if I could use that same registration if it gets stolen, but registering something as mechanically simple and cheap as a bicycle is, in my opinion difficult if not impossible to do without making the bike mechanically complex and expensive, at which point most people would just switch to scooters.\nI don't live in London, but from what I've heard, by far the biggest threat in the city is still motorized traffic, namely cars and lorries, and so until that problem is no longer a problem, I wouldn't really do anything special about bikes. Maybe put some undercover bike cops near the most dangerous bike path/lane intersections to catch a few offenders and make an example out of them, but that's about it.",
">\n\nMost cars I’ve driven came equipped with brakes and a steering wheel. I don’t see the problem",
">\n\nA common take and a stupid one.\nThere are good and bad drivers, pedestrians, and cyclists. Hating any of them as a group because some of them do bad things is just dumb.",
">\n\nIf you followed the laws and stayed out of the bike lane as a pedestrian there would be no problem.",
">\n\nIf bicyclists followed the laws and stopped ignoring street signs/traffic lights there would be no problem.",
">\n\nDon’t see how this address the problem with pedestrians in bike lanes.",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Drivers pedestrians other cyclists. They're a scourge.",
">\n\nEvery word of this is pure wisdom.",
">\n\nAs a car driver, I too hate cyclists.\nI don't care who has 'right of way'. I'm in a car, you're not. If we collide, regardless of fault, you're the one that dies.\nDo you really want to die on the hill that says \"i can bike on the rode b/c it's legal\"?\nI might be in jail, but you're still dead.\nBikes don't belong on public roads. Unless there's a bike lane - aka, a pathway designed specifically for bikers.\nIt's FAR SAFER to bike on the sidewalk.",
">\n\nBe careful you’ll anger r/fuckcars",
">\n\nI recently got a bike in Japan and there isn't any room on the street to ride my bike. Most people are fine when I'm on the sidewalk, however, the worst ones are groups of 2 or more who try and take up as much space as possible allowing nobody to pass. Same with the people who constantly switch between the left and right side of the sidewalk. It's really annoying to see how little spacial awareness they have.",
">\n\nCyclists on the road don’t have to pass the same test as vehicles on the road, which is why they are so bad. If there was a test in order to cycle on the road then i think it would be alot better",
">\n\nWhy do you hate all cyclists when only some of them are rude/dangerous?",
">\n\nCope hehe",
">\n\nIt's the powered vehicles that kill most pedestrians.\nBut, sure, cyclists blahblah..."
] |
>
I biked everywhere.....when I was a child. I'm an adult now and have an automobile. They are pretty neat.
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[
"I road cycled for years, I always followed the street rules. Always. Red light means red light. \nI have so many cycling friends who get into accidents and other conflicts with drivers, and yet they think it’s stupid to stop at a red light. They just don’t connect these two things",
">\n\nMost bikers I encounter are complete idiots. Like I'd be driving normally and out of nowhere comes a biker on a crosswalk in full speed. Now, I appreciate bikers who actually stop and make eye contact with me as I'm driving towards the crosswalk but man, it's either that or the biker almost dies because I have no time to brake.\nAnd what's up with all the bikers going like 5 kmh IN THE MIDDLE of a road when there's a dedicated sidewalk for bikers right next to them? Drives me insane.",
">\n\nIt seems like most bikers because of observation bias.\nIf you follow the rules as you should, you’re unmemorable.\nAs for the sidewalks - its actually less safe on the sidewalk.",
">\n\nInteresting. Dangerous situations are more valuable to remember, and I remember tons of irresponsible bikers. It is in fact observation bias. But I'm always happy to see those who pay close attention to traffic, and I do remeber some of them aswell.",
">\n\nWell the same goes for driving. How many cars do you remember when they haven’t done anything? But you tend to remember the ones who do something dumb",
">\n\nYeah it can be applied to anything really.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist in one of the most bike-dense cities in the world, I hate cyclists too. If I could avoid getting myself hurt, I’d be ramming at least ten of them a day just to teach a lesson about ignoring rules and common sense.",
">\n\nAmsterdam? Copenhagen?",
">\n\nCopenhagen. It’s a wonderful bike city but the people are incredibly self-centered.",
">\n\nI had high expectations from cyclists when I first visited the city, after all it is heralded as a cycling paradise and, well, let’s say it looked a lot more like the rest of the world and mainly because of the personal behavior of cyclists.\nMy local friend justified it, stating that it’s because danish are more temperamental than all other Scandinavians: an explanation that I really didn’t know what to do with…",
">\n\nIf “temperamental” means “a bunch of egotistical [insert unflattering body part]”, he’s right.",
">\n\nYou make it sound like a war zone. I live in Copenhagen and most of the time biking around the city is very pleasant. Except for the food delivery scooters, they can 🤬 off.",
">\n\nI guess it depends on how often and where you’re going. If you have places to be each and every day and want to get there effectively, people ignoring general rules and courtesies of the road are a pain. If you’re one of the types listening to podcasts with a latte in one hand and a phone in the other just trudging along, it’s probably fine.",
">\n\nSame! I love walking. Where I live on popular trails, there are bike lanes, but the cyclists will just ride wherever they. They don’t care and won’t let you know they’re coming. They’ll get pissy if you don’t just automatically know they’re coming up from behind you. If you do much as step foot in the bike lane, they get mad, but have no problems riding side by side outside the bike lane.",
">\n\nSame here! So much for my pleasant walk on the beautiful Trail. They sneak up and when they're almost on top of me, a loud voice yells \"On your left!\" They startle the shit out of me and cause me to jump sky high! 😡",
">\n\nIt’s literally the law to say that. This thread is all about hating them no matter if they follow the law or not.",
">\n\nIs it possible to do that without sneaking up on them and startling the shit out of them by yelling real loud? And then cutting is close to them as you possibly can without hitting them?",
">\n\nHello. \nMy useless comment to this post is here :D\nSo, i work in the accidents department of a big insurance company. My country is very strickt about the road rules, meaning:\nOur company estimates (is this the right word?) that around 82% of accidents involving cyclists, are to blame on the cyclist. Since there are expecific places on the road for you to ride your bike, even if it's not a bike lane.\nI remember a case where 3 dudes were just cycling, outside of town and they were literally on the middle of the road. the place where they were is full of curves and has very little visibility, so they were riding side by side, middle of the road, comes a car, hits not one, but the 3 of them because they scared the person and she just swerved the car.\nThey sued her and us (insurance) 2 times. Lost both and had to pay for all damage done on the car by their own bodys",
">\n\nThis sounds like something that happened near by my home town, are you in Ontario?",
">\n\nno XD portugal",
">\n\nGod its so much worse that it's happened in multiple places.\nIn ours I think the driver killed one of the cyclists, then sued the family for emotional damage",
">\n\nMy biggest gripe about cyclists is that there is always some danger when you encounter them on the road, either as a pedestrian or motorist. Now, part of it isn’t their fault. At least here in the US, not much of the infrastructure is made for bicycles. But cyclists are constantly breaking the rules of the road (or sidewalk) to get where they’re going faster. Blowing red lights, leaving the bike lane to use the sidewalk, splitting lanes. I always clench a little when I approach one, wondering if this is the day I can’t get out of the way.",
">\n\nWe have that same problem, but then a million times worse, because I live in The Netherlands. You probably know about our proud cycling culture (the Amsterdam stereotype). And yes, cyclists here are just as bad as the ones you describe, but there’s a lot more of them here. And oh yeah, traffic laws are almost always in their favor.",
">\n\nI found driving in the towns of the Netherlands so hard. Not just because I was on the wrong side of the road 😉 but because I just wasn’t used to sooo many cyclists coming from all directions, always faster than me and passing on both sides. Even as I was signalling to leave a roundabout at one point about three cyclists rode past on the inside. I really struggled to keep up with them all, which of course means I drove slower and thus even more bikes passed me!",
">\n\nYes that is of course very difficult, however as a Dutchman I’m used to cyclists, so of course we struggle a lot less. But that doesn’t take away from the fact that cyclists do cause a lot of issues because of their careless behavior, and because as drivers we have to accommodate them. That one sided ‘deal’ that we have makes it very difficult to deal with them.\nAll in all I’m happy we have so many cyclists as it’s good for the environment. But the utopian mindset of cyclists being a gift to the world is just stupid. Especially when you consider that mostly Americans who drive on wide open roads with barely any cyclists around are the ones praising cyclists in my country all the time. Also, cyclists annoy the hell out of pedestrians as well, so it’s not just about motorists.",
">\n\nCyclists treat red lights like stop signs and stop signs like yield signs (at best). They’re not allowed on sidewalks but do it anyway. Fuckin hate cyclists.",
">\n\nEverything you said is completely legal in Denver and sidewalks are illegal , but drivers constantly scream at cyclists to ride there",
">\n\nCyclist can roll stop signs and run red lights in Denver? What the fuck?",
">\n\nI’d have no problem if cyclist had respect for other road users. where I live there are cycle lanes, but most cyclists are on the road or pavements, they ignore red lights etc. \nIf you want to cycle please make it’s safe for yourself and others around you.",
">\n\nExactly my thoughts",
">\n\nHonestly, selfish assholes exist everywhere but a selfish asshole on a bicycle does a lot less damage than a selfish asshole in a car. \nEDIT: OP's also downvoting everyone who disagrees with him, just fyi.",
">\n\nAs a pedestrian, I hate everyone who's not a pedestrian... And some pedestrians too.",
">\n\nThere's a reason so many cyclists die each year, they all seem to pick and choose which laws they want to follow. Its always safer to assume they'll do whatever they want and everyone else needs to adapt to them.",
">\n\nAs a driver downtown, I don't worry at all about pedestrians at intersections, I can turn my head and assume they will be maybe five feet closer to my car when I look back, (and I trust they won't sprint towards me when I look away, at their own peril), but bikes, they ride so fast, that in the short time I turn my head to check for oncoming traffic, a bike could materialize right beside / infront me, and I risk hitting them or them hitting the side of my car. And that's even in their designated bike lane, that I have to pass through to clear the intersection. And if I drive into a ped at three miles per hour, they will just hit my hood with their fist and call me a stupid motherfucker, or whatever makes them feel justice was served, but if I bump the bike, it will be a big crash, the bicyclist will be all curled up in a ball on the ground, I'll be the bad guy in the eyes of the law and anyone nearby, and I'll probably be late as fuck to wherever it is I'm trying to go to.",
">\n\nI skateboard so I guess I'm good",
">\n\nJust don’t inconvenience narcissistic car drivers by a few seconds.",
">\n\nI think everyone hates cyclists. Cyclists included.",
">\n\nAs a driver, I hate you both",
">\n\nPedestrians are literally the worst. Anyone who has to walk more than 20 feet a day and not to their car are complete losers, and should be jailed on site.",
">\n\nOK, I think that's a bit extreme. But hey, if you're running for public office I'll vote for you. \nI do have to wonder anytime I see someone that I know has the mental faculties to drive who is walking. Usually assume too many DUI's.",
">\n\nr/fuckcars ripping out their hair rn",
">\n\nNot unpopular.\n Everyone hates cyclists.",
">\n\nI casually cycle in the summer. If I'm on a trail, I'll slow down and ring my bell if I see pedestrians, or stop and dismount if there's a lot of people or they don't notice me. Especially on the narrow trails in this woodlot I sometimes go to. \nThe problem is a lot of cyclists, especially in North America, but perhaps other places, just aren't respectful of others. They demand car drivers \"share the road\", but then ride in huge packs, lane split, don't signal turns, run stop signs and red lights, weave in and out of traffic, boot up busy sidewalks at 15-20mph, refuse to use provided bike lanes, etc. There's like a gross sense of entitlement in the cycling community. Dude, you're still a vehicle. There's rules that apply to you, just like there are for cars and motorcycles. Big problem is difficulty/lack of enforcement. Cops have to catch them in the act. Even then they're slippery devils since they're usually more mobile than a cruiser or beat cop on foot. This is why I support plating bikes to make them easily identifiable.",
">\n\n\nThere's like a gross sense of entitlement in the cycling community. Dude, you're still a vehicle. There's rules that apply to you, just like there are for cars and motorcycles.\n\nThat is the problem right there. They want to be treated equal to car owners, yet they do not abide by traffic rules, hence all the accidents.",
">\n\nAs a driver, I concur.",
">\n\nI hate bikers on trails. They're supposed to stop and let hikers by but they never do. They go by so freakin' fast too. It's like come on now!",
">\n\nAs a mostly former cyclist, I often hated cyclists too. Mostly, because so many cyclist are just competitive asshats that suck the pleasure out of their own bike ride by making everything about speed. Like, heaven forbid they have to slow and yield to anyone.\nOnce, I was riding my bicycle with my young daughter on a bike path in the city. A couple cyclist came up and got all pissy at us, saying we need to be out of the cycle lane because we were going too slow and my 8 year old kid wasn't keeping to a narrow lane. It was so hostile - my kid started crying.\nBut that is just so typical, all the time. I've gotten yelled out a few times when I made a full, foot down stop at a redlight because the cyclist behind me was expecting me to either run the redlight or at least go into the crosswalk and dance around (like they do) until it went green. I remember nearly getting run over by cyclists all the time, and yelled at if I was going too slow.\nThat being said, we need to do 100,000 x more in the US towards making bike paths, protected bike lanes, etc., because cyling is a truly great way to get around and I miss it. I just don't miss the self-centered asshats that dominate the cycling community.",
">\n\nThis!",
">\n\nI’ve nothing against cyclists as a group. I prefer to hate all people who do stupid things whether they’re in cars, on bikes or walking. Went to pick my daughter up tonight and counted six cyclists in the dark wearing all black with no lights at all plus one with a light so weak I didn’t see it until I was nearly past him. Tonight it was dumb cyclists, but tomorrow it might be idiots in cars. Hate the idiots not the method of transportation.",
">\n\nTrue !",
">\n\nOMG YES !! I completely agree. Every time i tried to explain this to a friend, they would always look at me like I am crazy for thinking such a thing. But as I walk for 45 minutes every days, it became a reality you can't ignore... I can't count how many times I nearly got hit by a cyclist, it happens every other week. I am starting to think that cyclists should have to go through a \"course\" to learn the basics of using the streets x)\n(Sorry for mistakes, not native here 'x) )",
">\n\nThis is my story lol..",
">\n\nYes, and it also is my personal experience, which is why I posted this..?",
">\n\nYes I totally agree. Just saying \"that's my life\" :) happening in Brussels tho",
">\n\nMy bad x) welp France here, it amazes me in a really bad way how this seems to be such a common phenomenon literaly EVERYWHERE",
">\n\nJ'ai roulé en vélo à Paris et laisse tomber l'enfer que c'était. J'avais l'impression d'avancer avec des oies qui insultaient tout le monde. BAa bAAA BAaaAa !!! \nLe problème c'est que plus les gens sont stressés (même les piétons... Genre dans le metro) plus ils se haïssent et ce matin j'avais la haine sur les vélos.. en vrai j'ai la haine sur tous les citadins haha",
">\n\nas a cyclist I hate everyone",
">\n\nSame, I see posts like this where people tell us to ride on the sidewalk when it’s illegal. \nThey assume we don’t walk anywhere, drive, etc like we are essentially subhuman for doing exercise.\nThey tell us to ride closer to the right side of the road so we get hit by a car door. \nThey’re mad that we give a verbal signal that we’re coming up on the left even though that’s the law. \nnow that I’m in Colorado I’m getting yelled at for the Idaho stop, which is completely legal. We yield to stop signs and temporarily stop at red light only till it’s clear. It’s all to REDUCE CAR TRAFFIC.\nSo far I’ve had family members die from hit and runs and drunk drivers, but somehow cyclists are the most dangerous thing on the road today.\nWhat is this really about?",
">\n\nI loathe cyclists. Selfish, entitled lycra lunatics.",
">\n\nBe honest, do you realize that it's possible to ride a bicycle and not be selfish, or entitled, or a lunatic, or not wear lycra?",
">\n\nThis thread is such a circlejerk, it's ridiculous.",
">\n\nThat's what I'm here for",
">\n\nIt's because cycling isn't regulated like motor vehicles are but they still get on the roads unlike pedestrians. So they don't have knowledge on the rules of the road that drivers have.\nThere's also some sort of hypocrisy they have where they believe drivers should give way to them because bikes are more vulnerable than cars while expecting pedestrians to give way to them because they're moving faster.",
">\n\n\nSo they don't have knowledge on the rules of the road\n\nPlenty do. Many cyclists also are automobilists. They just feel like they're exempted from respecting trafic rules because it's tiring to stop and go on a bike and they're slower an lighter than cars.",
">\n\nSure you got hit by a truck, but at least you managed to save yourself a little time and avoid waiting for a few seconds. Is what I'd say if they didn't then end up in the hospital",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists, as it should be.",
">\n\nCyclists shouldn’t be on sidewalks",
">\n\nI also cringe a lot when I see the international Reddit community constantly praise us Dutch people for our biking culture. People have no idea how many traffic accidents we get that could have been avoided if we didn’t have cyclists EVERYWHERE who are barely aware of the traffic rules that also apply to them.\nPeople have no idea about how cyclists are almost always right according to our traffic laws, which makes them much more reckless. They cause millions of dollars of damage to cars (and pedestrians) each year, and barely ever face consequences for their irresponsible and reckless behavior in traffic.\nPeople don’t see how cyclists often block traffic because they like to cycle next to each other in pairs, and if you honk they get angry and sometimes even aggressive and try to break your side mirror if they feel like it.\nMany intersections have bicycle lanes that you need to check when making a turn when driving, even though the intersection is already super busy with lots of cars. And guess what, cyclists still ride around fast and recklessly and making sure you don’t hit another car, cyclist AND pedestrian is all the job of one single driver.\nSo all in all, people from countries where driving is a relatively easy and chill thing to do, praise cycling culture in other countries. Try to drive here in busy traffic with thousands of cars AND (RECKLESS) CYCLISTS on the road and then tell me what it’s like.",
">\n\nIt would be much easier to sympathize with cars drivers if they did not need like 60% of the entire transit space leaving cyclists and pedestrians very little.\n\neven though the intersection is already super busy with lots of cars\n\nOfc, because cars are so large and need so much space.",
">\n\nI get that, but why is that my fault? I don’t do the city planning. Besides, cars are much larger than bicycles, so doesn’t it make sense there’s more space needed for cars than for bicycles?\nBut even then, if you don’t want to have any sympathy for motorists, because city planners give them more space than others, that’s just weird. It’s not the motorist’s fault.",
">\n\n\ndoesn’t it make sense there’s more space needed for cars than for bicycles?\n\nWhy a valuable and scarce resource such as the public space in cities should be used predominantly to benefit car users while barring everyone else? \nI just find it much harder to sympathize with the privileged group.",
">\n\nBecause people need to be able to go from A to B?",
">\n\nSo do pedestrians/public transport users/cyclists. But they don't require so much space per person.",
">\n\nWell in The Netherlands public transportation takes up an enormous amount of space and cyclists have their own dedicated lanes almost everywhere. Also motorists have to give public transportation space as we usually have to stop for trams and buses to pass, according to traffic rules. Guess who doesn’t often follow those rules: cyclists.\nHowever, public transportation itself is super busy and unbelievably expensive in The Netherlands. It costs more than 20 Euros to travel ~70 kilometers. That’s why a lot of people still prefer to have a car, and cars simply need infrastructure.\nSo I don’t really get your point. Cars, bicycles and public transportation all get a fair portion of the space that’s available.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist, i hate pedestrians. Here in Germany, there is bike lanes, one part for bikes and one for pedestrians on traffic lights... etc. But the pedestrians just ignore them, form \"walls\" of people blocking the bike lane, dont look while crossing the bike lane. Even cars repect us more than you.",
">\n\nThis I understand. Experienced the same in Denmark",
">\n\nClaaaaaarksoooooonnnnn",
">\n\nIdk about other places but here cyclists are constantly breaking the law and never getting ticketed for it. It makes no sense to me. I don’t think it’d make a huge difference but I do think some cyclists would think twice about disregarding the rules if those rules were actually enforced.",
">\n\nI get the sentiment. My feeling is the root cause is they don’t have their own infrastructure. Cars and peds do. So cyclists are always forced into a non ideal path. \nI’m aware they have rights to the road but cars and bikes really struggle to share an infrastructure clearly made for cars. \nSo if we invest in cycling infrastructure everyone would probably be happier.",
">\n\ndoubt it. In my city there is an asphalt bike path for miles that is like 8 feet wide. Smooth. No stop signs. Do they use it? nope they get their collective ass out on the street and I honestly don't have a clue why.\nIt defies logic. Safter, smooth, not cars/trunks, etc. Here they are out on the street just fiddle farting down a 45 mph road like they own it with a bike path 15 feet away with no one on it. The last guy I asked said \"It is my road as well you know\" that I ran up on while I was at a crossing while riding on the path myself. I just gave up trying to understand. Someone dies on that road every couple of months from bike or pedestrian strike with a vehicle. It was the whole reason they built the path....",
">\n\nWell in my experience there are 2 thing going on there.\na) Often bikers will avoid the path because peds often share or walk across those paths and their speed is closer to that of a car than a ped or \nb) If they are commuting...the path likely isn't going exactly where they need to.\nAs to your specific scenario I don't doubt there are bikers that are hard headed and stubborn. I know a few of those. But generally I do bikers using the infrastructure where we have built it.",
">\n\nThere's an accident here involving @ car running over a cyclist who crossed a red traffic light. And guess who take the blame?",
">\n\nLaughs in being dutch",
">\n\nIt is regrettable that a handful of asshole cyclists ruins everyone’s opinion of us. It really undermines the support needed to improve infrastructure for cycling. \nIf it is any help, when i ring my bell, I am doing so to avoid the alternatives of either yelling a warning or startling people. I normally exit the path and pass on the grass. I would say that most cyclist are the same. I don’t want you to get out of the way, I want you to know I am there. \nBut it only takes a couple assholes that think they own the path or the street. I have a cousin like this and it is difficult to convince him his is wrong and is putting himself and others in danger.",
">\n\nI think the a-holes are people that are only on a bike because it's the easiest thing for them, living where they do. You and those like you are on the bike because you love cycling.",
">\n\nI live in Portland, OR, and the cyclists here are so fucking rude and entitled.",
">\n\nI live in not-Portland OR and visited once. I biked down the road. Could not believe how nice everyone was to me. Probably because they could tell I’m an outsider.",
">\n\nI meant how they treat everyone else who isn't on a bike, tbh.",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists and it's for a simple reason. They think they can do whatever the hell they want. They switch between a pedestrian, a cyclist and a vehicle deciding on the fly whatever rules they feel like following with no accountability. \nOne minute they are skipping traffic, then they are deciding to cross at a crosswalk instead of following traffic. And the sidewalks are bike lanes if that's more convenient.",
">\n\nI just get annoyed because they will ride double wide on a tight street, forcing you to go 60mph in a 45, on the opposite side of traffic, risking a head on collision. And yea, you have to do that, because otherwise cars behind you will start driving aggressive as well as the fact that your expecting all the cars to go at a bikes speed on the road.",
">\n\nThat's because every country except for the Netherlands and Denmark have shit bicycle infrastructure.",
">\n\nI civilised countries we have cycling paths and cycling on the street is also possible as drivers aren't insane. So this seems rather like a problem of poor urban planning than cyclists in general.",
">\n\nWhere I live the cyclists just refuse to take the bikelane and either block the traffic because the rather use the street or they decide to use the pedestrian side of the sidewalk. The frickin bikelane is as big as the pedestrian one. There is no excuse not to use it and they still won't! One of them almost hit me if I hadn't dodge it. If the cyclist only drove a few inches to the left there would have been a bikelane and it wouldn't happened. Of course the person didn't apologize and just cursed at me.",
">\n\nBike gutters are awful and less safe than taking the lane. Assholes park in the bike lanes ALL THE TIME. Plus no one ever looks behind them when getting out pf their car so getting smacked by a door is a real danger. Drivers are entitled but it’s not their fault it’s the way we’ve built society to allow and expect them to be.\nETA: next time you’re driving around take a count how many people you see pulled over or parked in a bike gutter.",
">\n\nCompletely agree - I was ran over almost 3 times in Berlin. \nAnd every single time I checked before crossing - but they just suddenly spawned right in the way",
">\n\nDid you cross at a designated crosswalk? As a cyclist the amount of times people just randomly meander across an active street instead of going to the zebra/lollipop crossing, and then get angry at me when I have to swerve out the way/ brake is comical.",
">\n\nMan, y'all are sad people. \n\"Get off the road!\" Okay, now we are on the sidewalk. \n\"Get off the sidewalk!\" Back in the road again. \n\"They need to ring their bells so we know they're coming! Btw I hate it when they ring their bells so I know they're coming.\"",
">\n\nI hate cyclists like that. I don’t have a car so my bike is my main source of transportation and I don’t ride like that. So far, from what I’ve noticed in my area, I’m the only one that follows the damn rules in my city xD",
">\n\nNo matter where you are and who you are… driver or walker, scooter or flyer… we ALL hate cyclists.",
">\n\nI feel ya. The only thing I hate more than cyclists is electric scooters.",
">\n\nCompletely agree! A cycling license (similar to driving) should be required. Far too many cyclist who doesn’t know (and those who don’t just give a F) about traffic rules.",
">\n\nI completely agree! Cyclists have a lot of rights on the roads, and are very vocal about them, but think they can do whatever the fuck they want at roundabouts and pedestrian crossings.",
">\n\nIt just fascinates me how anyone can walk or drive through a city and genuinely think that bicycles are the problem. Look around you at every turn there are cars jamming the roads. Parked blocking things. Blocking pavements. Driving aggressively. Speeding. Failing to stop. Polluting the air. If they hit you, you are seriously injured or dead. This happens in the thousands. The city absolutely revolves around them.",
">\n\nYou are 100% right. Except I didn't say bicycles are the problem. I said i hate them. I said fuck cars too. I also said bicycles are one of the best alternative for trafic jam in cities.\nCities in Europe weren't made for cars nor bikes. So the problem is the fucking lazy greedy people who decide how to spend our tax money. The problem is people thinking they are all alone on the street. The problem is how stressed everybody is and how it become dangerous.\nNot because I hate how cyclists take revenge from drivers bullies to pedestrians makes me hate a transportation model itself.",
">\n\nIt just seems odd that people can really harp on about cyclists when they are such a trivial issue. Posts like this can get hundreds of replies. People tend to make excuses about cars.",
">\n\nYou just insulted a whole country.",
">\n\nThe Netherlands? It's ok",
">\n\nOk",
">\n\nI judge the actions of the individual not the mode of transport. I find it produces more accurate results.",
">\n\nApparently \"individuals alone are responsible for their own actions\" is the real unpopular opinion here.",
">\n\nIndeed 😀",
">\n\nAs a car driver I also hate cyclists. Saw one on a 45mph the other day despite there being a sidewalk AND a bikelane",
">\n\n45 mph isn't a speed for bike lane or sidewalk. Street is",
">\n\nas a cyclist, I hate pedestrians.\nMy city put in these nice protected bicycle lanes so bikes don't have to ride inches from cars, and boy don't those pedestrians just LOVE using the bike lane as a queuing up spot for the crosswalks. it's just so nice and convenient to get 5 more feet closer to your goal, isn't it? Those bicycles can stop and wait...and feel free to swear at them like THEY are the ones in the wrong.\nBicycles and pedestrians are natural enemies, that's never going to change. There can be only one.",
">\n\nLET'S END THIS NOW !!!!!",
">\n\nanyplace but Holy Ground.",
">\n\ndon't blame all bicyclists for the shitty ones.\nthat would be like saying every person who drives a car is an asshole. or every person who walks on the sidewalk is an asshole.\nsome people are good at getting around. other people are jerks. don't blame everyone for the actions of a small subset of people.",
">\n\nI mean, isn’t that the sentiment over that the popular sub r/fuckcars? The generalization is already being perpetuated from cyclists and “urbanists” in their war against cars.",
">\n\nNot really. That sub mostly hates the focus on cars when designing infrastructure, as well as the forced dependency on cars in our modern world. Not individual drivers.",
">\n\nSure about that? It’s mostly just a bitch-fest about driver errors to further their political agenda.",
">\n\nYea, I'm pretty sure.",
">\n\nReally weird way to get there if that’s the case. Alienating a large portion of the population (car drivers, car riders, people that depend on vehicles for the delivery of goods and services) is not how you get them on your side.",
">\n\nI don't think that's their goal in the first place. It's just a reddit sub.",
">\n\nEspecially when they have a stupid fucking bell and say \"on the left\" then proceed to be on the right side of the trail running into you",
">\n\nHahahha \"is he coming on the left or should i go on the lef...\" BANG!!",
">\n\nGF lives in a college town. It’s as if there’s some kinda fuckin’ death wish among the student cycling population",
">\n\nAs a [insert anyone, including cyclist], I hate cyclists.",
">\n\nPeople don't wanna hear it when it comes from automobilists because \"gngn cars are more dangerous and drivers are entitled\" but reality is cyclists are just the worst. Whether I'm on foot, driving a car, or riding a bicycle myself, cyclists are always always the ones being absolute public hazards. Heck, when I'm on my bike and stop at the stop sign on a cycle lane to let the cars go, they look at me as if I'm jesus or something. They even try to let me pass first because of how used they are to cyclists who just can't be bothered to respect the damn stop sign.",
">\n\nThe problem isn't the cyclists here, it's the lacking infrastructure.",
">\n\nWe shouldn't have to build infrastructure so people can partake in recreation. I find that comment extremely arrogant. Why on earth do cyclists deserve to have their recreation glorified and catered to??",
">\n\nRecreation? Ah yes, cycling is only for recreation.",
">\n\nWell, where I live that I'd the ONLY purpose. I'm 17 miles from any city municipality. Nobody is biking here to go to the grocery store or work.",
">\n\nNot everything is about you personally.",
">\n\nTo me, it is, and should be. My concern is around how cyclists inconvenience me while I'm trying to be a productive member of society. I feel like that's a fair critique.",
">\n\nYou are mad that cyclists inconvenience you yet you reject dedicated infrastructure as a solution. Do you think cyclists should be banned off the road completely?",
">\n\nThe real issue here is lacking cycling infrastructure.",
">\n\nDefinitely a major issue.\nBut part of the issue is definitely cyclists who prioritize their own speed over the safety and welfare of everyone around them. It's like they are all BMW drivers, deep down, and just don't want to yield to or slow down for anyone.",
">\n\nI'm sure there are, assholes exist in all vehicle types.",
">\n\nCyclists know thar neither the pavement nor the road are theirs because motorists and pedestrians like you are both screaming at them all the time. And I swear you'd be angrier if they didn't give a polite warning that they're coming toward you. \nCyclists who breeze through crossings instead of stopping are a minority, much like cyclists are a minority in general, and you can't judge an entire group that aren't adequately represented",
">\n\nFuck traveling in general",
">\n\nYa. Where are our transporters! \nSorry had to go full nerd.",
">\n\nI see posts like this constantly. It blows my mind people can just choose one thing that is so insignificant to scapegoat. \nThey assume people on bikes don’t also walk, drive, etc like we are essentially subhuman for doing exercise / running errands in this way because they are inconvenienced for a few seconds. You realize we are human like you , right?\nPeople tell us to ride bicycles on the sidewalk when it’s illegal while others say not too. It’s usually against the law.\nThey tell us to ride closer to the right side of the road , so we get hit by a car door and yelled at again. \nThey’re mad that we give a verbal signal that we’re coming up on the left even though that’s the law. \nNow that I’m in Colorado I’m getting yelled at for the Idaho stop, which is completely legal. We yield to stop signs and temporarily stop at red lights only if it’s clear. It’s all to REDUCE CAR TRAFFIC. \nKeep in mind we are riding bicycles which in its own right REDUCES CAR TRAFFIC. \n80% of car trips are within 3 miles from your house. Everyone that rides a bike keeps you from being stuck behind them in traffic for longer then the 20 seconds you’re currently inconvenienced. It’s also mean parking closer to the front door of a shop. \nSo far I’ve had family members die from hit and runs and drunk drivers, but somehow cyclists are the most dangerous thing on the road today?! It’s not adding up.\nWhat is this really about?",
">\n\nI'm sorry for your losses. I never said bikers are the most dangerous things on the road. Saying this would be stupid. The problem in my city is the lack of respect from cyclists to pedestrians in a general way. I'm not even talking about drivers against EVERYTHING ON THE STREET.",
">\n\nI go out of my way to be respectful to everybody, and I’ve had nothing but kindness and respect from other cyclists .\nYou wanna blame everybody on a bicycle for all your problems when it’s really just about a few people who disrespected you. \nCyclists are drivers, walkers, etc. do they just jump on a bicycle and instantly become disrespectful?\nStill doesn’t make any logical sense.",
">\n\nDude you just don't get it.. i understand biking is your life.. but come on.\nI use to bike 40km per day to work. \nI don't have problems with people jumping on bikes. I simply hate the ones that are disrespectful.\nIs it too hard to understand? Just me venting coz I feel like a lot of bikers think they are on top of the citizen pyramid? \nI'm not venting about the system here, nor about cars.. just about some (yes some) bikers.\nAnd please there is no need to beg for upvotes on fuckcars how old are you?",
">\n\nI bet your fat.",
">\n\nOf course I fart !",
">\n\nTo you yours and to mine mine; I hate car users and their ilk who are filled with wonton waste and hate for all else who dare travel near them. I stop at all lights, halt for all signs, use a mirror, lights, and hand signals, pull over for cars coming my way so long as there is any room, and use what little biking infrastructure is available to me.\nMy taxes are waste and paid in folly for they assuredly go in portion to your reckless use of a powerful machine and not to my own reckless use of a small self-propelled stick on two wheels to separate lanes and keep them maintained. No, no, I must settle for the gutter and cry glee for that and be ashamed to move to the sidewalk when it suddenly ends and continues a block later down the road. \nFuck your car, your roads, and your selfish desire to pave the world and create cities with 60% of their coverage dedicated to driving a car, parking a car, and separating the world into places for cars and otherwise. You who drive faster and faster, in bigger and bigger cars. I loath you as you loath mine.",
">\n\nI wouldn’t hate cyclists if they didn’t act like road laws don’t apply to em in the city where I live. I’ve seen cyclists not even stop at red lights even with an almost full intersection, and ride the wrong way down one ways.\nEdit: I do wish the city where I live had more bike lanes but yeah.",
">\n\nIf you're going to hate someone, maybe hate the people actually doing those things.\nIf I see someone on a bike rush through a short break on a red light in an otherwise busy intersection, I shake my head and think they are an idiot. I think this while waiting for the light to turn green on my bike.\nSimilarly, when a car illegally stops in a bike lane (which happens ALL THE TIME by the way), I don't turn around and blame the cars moving along legally in the adjacent lane.",
">\n\nPedestrian are the worst.\nWhen i started using bicicle I was very polite: brake, ring, ask for permission. And what the large amount of people do? Ignore u, watch u in the eyes and take a step in the fucking middle of the trail (many many times! for real!), shout at you just because u exist. So.... At some point is fuck you all, I'm coming go out of the way. That's it",
">\n\n\nI will never drive nor park on a bike lane, always look into the mirror to be careful of one of you monkeys. So why can't you be careful when us peasants are walking?\n\nThis is dumb. Obviously there are plenty of cyclists who are careful and courteous about your safety. That's part of what a bell or \"watch out!\" (generally \"On your left\") is doing for you. And just because you are courteous to them doesn't mean everyone is. Is every driver a douchebag just because some of them crowd cyclists when and where the cyclist has the right to the road? No.",
">\n\nThe difference here is that generally car drivers are going to be held accountable for bad driving. This is in the form of dash cams, ANPR and red light cameras which catch drivers doing bad things and they can receive a fine or points on their licence. Cyclists currently can't be held accountable if they jump red lights or hit a car or pedestrian as there isn't anything that helps identify them. This is a big issue in cities. I live and work in London and see many cyclists jumping red lights and weaving around pedestrians crossing. Cars can't do this as most traffic lights have red light cameras that would catch this.\nDrivers as a collective (including me) are in no way perfect or even held to account 100% of the time, but I believe we need a system for cyclists to be held accountable too",
">\n\nYour way of thinking, while perfectly rational and natural, is outdated. Traffic law enforcement, like any other law enforcement, is less about the enforcement, and more about the prevention. Where I live, speed and red light cameras are clearly marked ahead so that the people who'd normally break the law follow it instead, making punishment unnecessary. \nSame could be done with cyclists. Sure, you could make every cyclist install a license plate, require a \"cycling license\", or install expensive cameras with facial identification software, but how about just make it so cyclists aren't incentivised to break the law in the first place? \nMake more useful cycling infrastructure, and more cyclists will use it. Make that infrastructure intersect with foot and motor traffic more safely and less often, and less collisions will happen.",
">\n\nI completely understand your point. However, a lot of money has gone into my local area for cycling infrastructure that most cyclists are using, but many are still choosing to break the rules as the rules are inconvenient. The infrastructure is not enough, there needs to be an incentive NOT to break the rules.\nIf you take a look at Chiswick High Road in London, England. They have created segregated cycle lanes from the traffic. These cycle lanes have their own lights and crossings to keep them safe from cars. However many cyclists just ignore the lights and just keep going into pedestrians. There is no punishment for them doing this as they can't be tracked. Personally I think every cyclist should have to register their bike (make it free to help encourage this) and then a new form of ANPR used to also catch cyclists in the act",
">\n\nPersonally I'd have no problem registering my bike for free, especially if I could use that same registration if it gets stolen, but registering something as mechanically simple and cheap as a bicycle is, in my opinion difficult if not impossible to do without making the bike mechanically complex and expensive, at which point most people would just switch to scooters.\nI don't live in London, but from what I've heard, by far the biggest threat in the city is still motorized traffic, namely cars and lorries, and so until that problem is no longer a problem, I wouldn't really do anything special about bikes. Maybe put some undercover bike cops near the most dangerous bike path/lane intersections to catch a few offenders and make an example out of them, but that's about it.",
">\n\nMost cars I’ve driven came equipped with brakes and a steering wheel. I don’t see the problem",
">\n\nA common take and a stupid one.\nThere are good and bad drivers, pedestrians, and cyclists. Hating any of them as a group because some of them do bad things is just dumb.",
">\n\nIf you followed the laws and stayed out of the bike lane as a pedestrian there would be no problem.",
">\n\nIf bicyclists followed the laws and stopped ignoring street signs/traffic lights there would be no problem.",
">\n\nDon’t see how this address the problem with pedestrians in bike lanes.",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Drivers pedestrians other cyclists. They're a scourge.",
">\n\nEvery word of this is pure wisdom.",
">\n\nAs a car driver, I too hate cyclists.\nI don't care who has 'right of way'. I'm in a car, you're not. If we collide, regardless of fault, you're the one that dies.\nDo you really want to die on the hill that says \"i can bike on the rode b/c it's legal\"?\nI might be in jail, but you're still dead.\nBikes don't belong on public roads. Unless there's a bike lane - aka, a pathway designed specifically for bikers.\nIt's FAR SAFER to bike on the sidewalk.",
">\n\nBe careful you’ll anger r/fuckcars",
">\n\nI recently got a bike in Japan and there isn't any room on the street to ride my bike. Most people are fine when I'm on the sidewalk, however, the worst ones are groups of 2 or more who try and take up as much space as possible allowing nobody to pass. Same with the people who constantly switch between the left and right side of the sidewalk. It's really annoying to see how little spacial awareness they have.",
">\n\nCyclists on the road don’t have to pass the same test as vehicles on the road, which is why they are so bad. If there was a test in order to cycle on the road then i think it would be alot better",
">\n\nWhy do you hate all cyclists when only some of them are rude/dangerous?",
">\n\nCope hehe",
">\n\nIt's the powered vehicles that kill most pedestrians.\nBut, sure, cyclists blahblah...",
">\n\nAs an occasional cyclist, I don't like you either."
] |
>
When I used to have to walk to work I’d walk on the sidewalk and listen to music and one time this guy zipped right by me yelling almost knocking me over and flipped me off?? They act like they don’t have breaks lmao
|
[
"I road cycled for years, I always followed the street rules. Always. Red light means red light. \nI have so many cycling friends who get into accidents and other conflicts with drivers, and yet they think it’s stupid to stop at a red light. They just don’t connect these two things",
">\n\nMost bikers I encounter are complete idiots. Like I'd be driving normally and out of nowhere comes a biker on a crosswalk in full speed. Now, I appreciate bikers who actually stop and make eye contact with me as I'm driving towards the crosswalk but man, it's either that or the biker almost dies because I have no time to brake.\nAnd what's up with all the bikers going like 5 kmh IN THE MIDDLE of a road when there's a dedicated sidewalk for bikers right next to them? Drives me insane.",
">\n\nIt seems like most bikers because of observation bias.\nIf you follow the rules as you should, you’re unmemorable.\nAs for the sidewalks - its actually less safe on the sidewalk.",
">\n\nInteresting. Dangerous situations are more valuable to remember, and I remember tons of irresponsible bikers. It is in fact observation bias. But I'm always happy to see those who pay close attention to traffic, and I do remeber some of them aswell.",
">\n\nWell the same goes for driving. How many cars do you remember when they haven’t done anything? But you tend to remember the ones who do something dumb",
">\n\nYeah it can be applied to anything really.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist in one of the most bike-dense cities in the world, I hate cyclists too. If I could avoid getting myself hurt, I’d be ramming at least ten of them a day just to teach a lesson about ignoring rules and common sense.",
">\n\nAmsterdam? Copenhagen?",
">\n\nCopenhagen. It’s a wonderful bike city but the people are incredibly self-centered.",
">\n\nI had high expectations from cyclists when I first visited the city, after all it is heralded as a cycling paradise and, well, let’s say it looked a lot more like the rest of the world and mainly because of the personal behavior of cyclists.\nMy local friend justified it, stating that it’s because danish are more temperamental than all other Scandinavians: an explanation that I really didn’t know what to do with…",
">\n\nIf “temperamental” means “a bunch of egotistical [insert unflattering body part]”, he’s right.",
">\n\nYou make it sound like a war zone. I live in Copenhagen and most of the time biking around the city is very pleasant. Except for the food delivery scooters, they can 🤬 off.",
">\n\nI guess it depends on how often and where you’re going. If you have places to be each and every day and want to get there effectively, people ignoring general rules and courtesies of the road are a pain. If you’re one of the types listening to podcasts with a latte in one hand and a phone in the other just trudging along, it’s probably fine.",
">\n\nSame! I love walking. Where I live on popular trails, there are bike lanes, but the cyclists will just ride wherever they. They don’t care and won’t let you know they’re coming. They’ll get pissy if you don’t just automatically know they’re coming up from behind you. If you do much as step foot in the bike lane, they get mad, but have no problems riding side by side outside the bike lane.",
">\n\nSame here! So much for my pleasant walk on the beautiful Trail. They sneak up and when they're almost on top of me, a loud voice yells \"On your left!\" They startle the shit out of me and cause me to jump sky high! 😡",
">\n\nIt’s literally the law to say that. This thread is all about hating them no matter if they follow the law or not.",
">\n\nIs it possible to do that without sneaking up on them and startling the shit out of them by yelling real loud? And then cutting is close to them as you possibly can without hitting them?",
">\n\nHello. \nMy useless comment to this post is here :D\nSo, i work in the accidents department of a big insurance company. My country is very strickt about the road rules, meaning:\nOur company estimates (is this the right word?) that around 82% of accidents involving cyclists, are to blame on the cyclist. Since there are expecific places on the road for you to ride your bike, even if it's not a bike lane.\nI remember a case where 3 dudes were just cycling, outside of town and they were literally on the middle of the road. the place where they were is full of curves and has very little visibility, so they were riding side by side, middle of the road, comes a car, hits not one, but the 3 of them because they scared the person and she just swerved the car.\nThey sued her and us (insurance) 2 times. Lost both and had to pay for all damage done on the car by their own bodys",
">\n\nThis sounds like something that happened near by my home town, are you in Ontario?",
">\n\nno XD portugal",
">\n\nGod its so much worse that it's happened in multiple places.\nIn ours I think the driver killed one of the cyclists, then sued the family for emotional damage",
">\n\nMy biggest gripe about cyclists is that there is always some danger when you encounter them on the road, either as a pedestrian or motorist. Now, part of it isn’t their fault. At least here in the US, not much of the infrastructure is made for bicycles. But cyclists are constantly breaking the rules of the road (or sidewalk) to get where they’re going faster. Blowing red lights, leaving the bike lane to use the sidewalk, splitting lanes. I always clench a little when I approach one, wondering if this is the day I can’t get out of the way.",
">\n\nWe have that same problem, but then a million times worse, because I live in The Netherlands. You probably know about our proud cycling culture (the Amsterdam stereotype). And yes, cyclists here are just as bad as the ones you describe, but there’s a lot more of them here. And oh yeah, traffic laws are almost always in their favor.",
">\n\nI found driving in the towns of the Netherlands so hard. Not just because I was on the wrong side of the road 😉 but because I just wasn’t used to sooo many cyclists coming from all directions, always faster than me and passing on both sides. Even as I was signalling to leave a roundabout at one point about three cyclists rode past on the inside. I really struggled to keep up with them all, which of course means I drove slower and thus even more bikes passed me!",
">\n\nYes that is of course very difficult, however as a Dutchman I’m used to cyclists, so of course we struggle a lot less. But that doesn’t take away from the fact that cyclists do cause a lot of issues because of their careless behavior, and because as drivers we have to accommodate them. That one sided ‘deal’ that we have makes it very difficult to deal with them.\nAll in all I’m happy we have so many cyclists as it’s good for the environment. But the utopian mindset of cyclists being a gift to the world is just stupid. Especially when you consider that mostly Americans who drive on wide open roads with barely any cyclists around are the ones praising cyclists in my country all the time. Also, cyclists annoy the hell out of pedestrians as well, so it’s not just about motorists.",
">\n\nCyclists treat red lights like stop signs and stop signs like yield signs (at best). They’re not allowed on sidewalks but do it anyway. Fuckin hate cyclists.",
">\n\nEverything you said is completely legal in Denver and sidewalks are illegal , but drivers constantly scream at cyclists to ride there",
">\n\nCyclist can roll stop signs and run red lights in Denver? What the fuck?",
">\n\nI’d have no problem if cyclist had respect for other road users. where I live there are cycle lanes, but most cyclists are on the road or pavements, they ignore red lights etc. \nIf you want to cycle please make it’s safe for yourself and others around you.",
">\n\nExactly my thoughts",
">\n\nHonestly, selfish assholes exist everywhere but a selfish asshole on a bicycle does a lot less damage than a selfish asshole in a car. \nEDIT: OP's also downvoting everyone who disagrees with him, just fyi.",
">\n\nAs a pedestrian, I hate everyone who's not a pedestrian... And some pedestrians too.",
">\n\nThere's a reason so many cyclists die each year, they all seem to pick and choose which laws they want to follow. Its always safer to assume they'll do whatever they want and everyone else needs to adapt to them.",
">\n\nAs a driver downtown, I don't worry at all about pedestrians at intersections, I can turn my head and assume they will be maybe five feet closer to my car when I look back, (and I trust they won't sprint towards me when I look away, at their own peril), but bikes, they ride so fast, that in the short time I turn my head to check for oncoming traffic, a bike could materialize right beside / infront me, and I risk hitting them or them hitting the side of my car. And that's even in their designated bike lane, that I have to pass through to clear the intersection. And if I drive into a ped at three miles per hour, they will just hit my hood with their fist and call me a stupid motherfucker, or whatever makes them feel justice was served, but if I bump the bike, it will be a big crash, the bicyclist will be all curled up in a ball on the ground, I'll be the bad guy in the eyes of the law and anyone nearby, and I'll probably be late as fuck to wherever it is I'm trying to go to.",
">\n\nI skateboard so I guess I'm good",
">\n\nJust don’t inconvenience narcissistic car drivers by a few seconds.",
">\n\nI think everyone hates cyclists. Cyclists included.",
">\n\nAs a driver, I hate you both",
">\n\nPedestrians are literally the worst. Anyone who has to walk more than 20 feet a day and not to their car are complete losers, and should be jailed on site.",
">\n\nOK, I think that's a bit extreme. But hey, if you're running for public office I'll vote for you. \nI do have to wonder anytime I see someone that I know has the mental faculties to drive who is walking. Usually assume too many DUI's.",
">\n\nr/fuckcars ripping out their hair rn",
">\n\nNot unpopular.\n Everyone hates cyclists.",
">\n\nI casually cycle in the summer. If I'm on a trail, I'll slow down and ring my bell if I see pedestrians, or stop and dismount if there's a lot of people or they don't notice me. Especially on the narrow trails in this woodlot I sometimes go to. \nThe problem is a lot of cyclists, especially in North America, but perhaps other places, just aren't respectful of others. They demand car drivers \"share the road\", but then ride in huge packs, lane split, don't signal turns, run stop signs and red lights, weave in and out of traffic, boot up busy sidewalks at 15-20mph, refuse to use provided bike lanes, etc. There's like a gross sense of entitlement in the cycling community. Dude, you're still a vehicle. There's rules that apply to you, just like there are for cars and motorcycles. Big problem is difficulty/lack of enforcement. Cops have to catch them in the act. Even then they're slippery devils since they're usually more mobile than a cruiser or beat cop on foot. This is why I support plating bikes to make them easily identifiable.",
">\n\n\nThere's like a gross sense of entitlement in the cycling community. Dude, you're still a vehicle. There's rules that apply to you, just like there are for cars and motorcycles.\n\nThat is the problem right there. They want to be treated equal to car owners, yet they do not abide by traffic rules, hence all the accidents.",
">\n\nAs a driver, I concur.",
">\n\nI hate bikers on trails. They're supposed to stop and let hikers by but they never do. They go by so freakin' fast too. It's like come on now!",
">\n\nAs a mostly former cyclist, I often hated cyclists too. Mostly, because so many cyclist are just competitive asshats that suck the pleasure out of their own bike ride by making everything about speed. Like, heaven forbid they have to slow and yield to anyone.\nOnce, I was riding my bicycle with my young daughter on a bike path in the city. A couple cyclist came up and got all pissy at us, saying we need to be out of the cycle lane because we were going too slow and my 8 year old kid wasn't keeping to a narrow lane. It was so hostile - my kid started crying.\nBut that is just so typical, all the time. I've gotten yelled out a few times when I made a full, foot down stop at a redlight because the cyclist behind me was expecting me to either run the redlight or at least go into the crosswalk and dance around (like they do) until it went green. I remember nearly getting run over by cyclists all the time, and yelled at if I was going too slow.\nThat being said, we need to do 100,000 x more in the US towards making bike paths, protected bike lanes, etc., because cyling is a truly great way to get around and I miss it. I just don't miss the self-centered asshats that dominate the cycling community.",
">\n\nThis!",
">\n\nI’ve nothing against cyclists as a group. I prefer to hate all people who do stupid things whether they’re in cars, on bikes or walking. Went to pick my daughter up tonight and counted six cyclists in the dark wearing all black with no lights at all plus one with a light so weak I didn’t see it until I was nearly past him. Tonight it was dumb cyclists, but tomorrow it might be idiots in cars. Hate the idiots not the method of transportation.",
">\n\nTrue !",
">\n\nOMG YES !! I completely agree. Every time i tried to explain this to a friend, they would always look at me like I am crazy for thinking such a thing. But as I walk for 45 minutes every days, it became a reality you can't ignore... I can't count how many times I nearly got hit by a cyclist, it happens every other week. I am starting to think that cyclists should have to go through a \"course\" to learn the basics of using the streets x)\n(Sorry for mistakes, not native here 'x) )",
">\n\nThis is my story lol..",
">\n\nYes, and it also is my personal experience, which is why I posted this..?",
">\n\nYes I totally agree. Just saying \"that's my life\" :) happening in Brussels tho",
">\n\nMy bad x) welp France here, it amazes me in a really bad way how this seems to be such a common phenomenon literaly EVERYWHERE",
">\n\nJ'ai roulé en vélo à Paris et laisse tomber l'enfer que c'était. J'avais l'impression d'avancer avec des oies qui insultaient tout le monde. BAa bAAA BAaaAa !!! \nLe problème c'est que plus les gens sont stressés (même les piétons... Genre dans le metro) plus ils se haïssent et ce matin j'avais la haine sur les vélos.. en vrai j'ai la haine sur tous les citadins haha",
">\n\nas a cyclist I hate everyone",
">\n\nSame, I see posts like this where people tell us to ride on the sidewalk when it’s illegal. \nThey assume we don’t walk anywhere, drive, etc like we are essentially subhuman for doing exercise.\nThey tell us to ride closer to the right side of the road so we get hit by a car door. \nThey’re mad that we give a verbal signal that we’re coming up on the left even though that’s the law. \nnow that I’m in Colorado I’m getting yelled at for the Idaho stop, which is completely legal. We yield to stop signs and temporarily stop at red light only till it’s clear. It’s all to REDUCE CAR TRAFFIC.\nSo far I’ve had family members die from hit and runs and drunk drivers, but somehow cyclists are the most dangerous thing on the road today.\nWhat is this really about?",
">\n\nI loathe cyclists. Selfish, entitled lycra lunatics.",
">\n\nBe honest, do you realize that it's possible to ride a bicycle and not be selfish, or entitled, or a lunatic, or not wear lycra?",
">\n\nThis thread is such a circlejerk, it's ridiculous.",
">\n\nThat's what I'm here for",
">\n\nIt's because cycling isn't regulated like motor vehicles are but they still get on the roads unlike pedestrians. So they don't have knowledge on the rules of the road that drivers have.\nThere's also some sort of hypocrisy they have where they believe drivers should give way to them because bikes are more vulnerable than cars while expecting pedestrians to give way to them because they're moving faster.",
">\n\n\nSo they don't have knowledge on the rules of the road\n\nPlenty do. Many cyclists also are automobilists. They just feel like they're exempted from respecting trafic rules because it's tiring to stop and go on a bike and they're slower an lighter than cars.",
">\n\nSure you got hit by a truck, but at least you managed to save yourself a little time and avoid waiting for a few seconds. Is what I'd say if they didn't then end up in the hospital",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists, as it should be.",
">\n\nCyclists shouldn’t be on sidewalks",
">\n\nI also cringe a lot when I see the international Reddit community constantly praise us Dutch people for our biking culture. People have no idea how many traffic accidents we get that could have been avoided if we didn’t have cyclists EVERYWHERE who are barely aware of the traffic rules that also apply to them.\nPeople have no idea about how cyclists are almost always right according to our traffic laws, which makes them much more reckless. They cause millions of dollars of damage to cars (and pedestrians) each year, and barely ever face consequences for their irresponsible and reckless behavior in traffic.\nPeople don’t see how cyclists often block traffic because they like to cycle next to each other in pairs, and if you honk they get angry and sometimes even aggressive and try to break your side mirror if they feel like it.\nMany intersections have bicycle lanes that you need to check when making a turn when driving, even though the intersection is already super busy with lots of cars. And guess what, cyclists still ride around fast and recklessly and making sure you don’t hit another car, cyclist AND pedestrian is all the job of one single driver.\nSo all in all, people from countries where driving is a relatively easy and chill thing to do, praise cycling culture in other countries. Try to drive here in busy traffic with thousands of cars AND (RECKLESS) CYCLISTS on the road and then tell me what it’s like.",
">\n\nIt would be much easier to sympathize with cars drivers if they did not need like 60% of the entire transit space leaving cyclists and pedestrians very little.\n\neven though the intersection is already super busy with lots of cars\n\nOfc, because cars are so large and need so much space.",
">\n\nI get that, but why is that my fault? I don’t do the city planning. Besides, cars are much larger than bicycles, so doesn’t it make sense there’s more space needed for cars than for bicycles?\nBut even then, if you don’t want to have any sympathy for motorists, because city planners give them more space than others, that’s just weird. It’s not the motorist’s fault.",
">\n\n\ndoesn’t it make sense there’s more space needed for cars than for bicycles?\n\nWhy a valuable and scarce resource such as the public space in cities should be used predominantly to benefit car users while barring everyone else? \nI just find it much harder to sympathize with the privileged group.",
">\n\nBecause people need to be able to go from A to B?",
">\n\nSo do pedestrians/public transport users/cyclists. But they don't require so much space per person.",
">\n\nWell in The Netherlands public transportation takes up an enormous amount of space and cyclists have their own dedicated lanes almost everywhere. Also motorists have to give public transportation space as we usually have to stop for trams and buses to pass, according to traffic rules. Guess who doesn’t often follow those rules: cyclists.\nHowever, public transportation itself is super busy and unbelievably expensive in The Netherlands. It costs more than 20 Euros to travel ~70 kilometers. That’s why a lot of people still prefer to have a car, and cars simply need infrastructure.\nSo I don’t really get your point. Cars, bicycles and public transportation all get a fair portion of the space that’s available.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist, i hate pedestrians. Here in Germany, there is bike lanes, one part for bikes and one for pedestrians on traffic lights... etc. But the pedestrians just ignore them, form \"walls\" of people blocking the bike lane, dont look while crossing the bike lane. Even cars repect us more than you.",
">\n\nThis I understand. Experienced the same in Denmark",
">\n\nClaaaaaarksoooooonnnnn",
">\n\nIdk about other places but here cyclists are constantly breaking the law and never getting ticketed for it. It makes no sense to me. I don’t think it’d make a huge difference but I do think some cyclists would think twice about disregarding the rules if those rules were actually enforced.",
">\n\nI get the sentiment. My feeling is the root cause is they don’t have their own infrastructure. Cars and peds do. So cyclists are always forced into a non ideal path. \nI’m aware they have rights to the road but cars and bikes really struggle to share an infrastructure clearly made for cars. \nSo if we invest in cycling infrastructure everyone would probably be happier.",
">\n\ndoubt it. In my city there is an asphalt bike path for miles that is like 8 feet wide. Smooth. No stop signs. Do they use it? nope they get their collective ass out on the street and I honestly don't have a clue why.\nIt defies logic. Safter, smooth, not cars/trunks, etc. Here they are out on the street just fiddle farting down a 45 mph road like they own it with a bike path 15 feet away with no one on it. The last guy I asked said \"It is my road as well you know\" that I ran up on while I was at a crossing while riding on the path myself. I just gave up trying to understand. Someone dies on that road every couple of months from bike or pedestrian strike with a vehicle. It was the whole reason they built the path....",
">\n\nWell in my experience there are 2 thing going on there.\na) Often bikers will avoid the path because peds often share or walk across those paths and their speed is closer to that of a car than a ped or \nb) If they are commuting...the path likely isn't going exactly where they need to.\nAs to your specific scenario I don't doubt there are bikers that are hard headed and stubborn. I know a few of those. But generally I do bikers using the infrastructure where we have built it.",
">\n\nThere's an accident here involving @ car running over a cyclist who crossed a red traffic light. And guess who take the blame?",
">\n\nLaughs in being dutch",
">\n\nIt is regrettable that a handful of asshole cyclists ruins everyone’s opinion of us. It really undermines the support needed to improve infrastructure for cycling. \nIf it is any help, when i ring my bell, I am doing so to avoid the alternatives of either yelling a warning or startling people. I normally exit the path and pass on the grass. I would say that most cyclist are the same. I don’t want you to get out of the way, I want you to know I am there. \nBut it only takes a couple assholes that think they own the path or the street. I have a cousin like this and it is difficult to convince him his is wrong and is putting himself and others in danger.",
">\n\nI think the a-holes are people that are only on a bike because it's the easiest thing for them, living where they do. You and those like you are on the bike because you love cycling.",
">\n\nI live in Portland, OR, and the cyclists here are so fucking rude and entitled.",
">\n\nI live in not-Portland OR and visited once. I biked down the road. Could not believe how nice everyone was to me. Probably because they could tell I’m an outsider.",
">\n\nI meant how they treat everyone else who isn't on a bike, tbh.",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists and it's for a simple reason. They think they can do whatever the hell they want. They switch between a pedestrian, a cyclist and a vehicle deciding on the fly whatever rules they feel like following with no accountability. \nOne minute they are skipping traffic, then they are deciding to cross at a crosswalk instead of following traffic. And the sidewalks are bike lanes if that's more convenient.",
">\n\nI just get annoyed because they will ride double wide on a tight street, forcing you to go 60mph in a 45, on the opposite side of traffic, risking a head on collision. And yea, you have to do that, because otherwise cars behind you will start driving aggressive as well as the fact that your expecting all the cars to go at a bikes speed on the road.",
">\n\nThat's because every country except for the Netherlands and Denmark have shit bicycle infrastructure.",
">\n\nI civilised countries we have cycling paths and cycling on the street is also possible as drivers aren't insane. So this seems rather like a problem of poor urban planning than cyclists in general.",
">\n\nWhere I live the cyclists just refuse to take the bikelane and either block the traffic because the rather use the street or they decide to use the pedestrian side of the sidewalk. The frickin bikelane is as big as the pedestrian one. There is no excuse not to use it and they still won't! One of them almost hit me if I hadn't dodge it. If the cyclist only drove a few inches to the left there would have been a bikelane and it wouldn't happened. Of course the person didn't apologize and just cursed at me.",
">\n\nBike gutters are awful and less safe than taking the lane. Assholes park in the bike lanes ALL THE TIME. Plus no one ever looks behind them when getting out pf their car so getting smacked by a door is a real danger. Drivers are entitled but it’s not their fault it’s the way we’ve built society to allow and expect them to be.\nETA: next time you’re driving around take a count how many people you see pulled over or parked in a bike gutter.",
">\n\nCompletely agree - I was ran over almost 3 times in Berlin. \nAnd every single time I checked before crossing - but they just suddenly spawned right in the way",
">\n\nDid you cross at a designated crosswalk? As a cyclist the amount of times people just randomly meander across an active street instead of going to the zebra/lollipop crossing, and then get angry at me when I have to swerve out the way/ brake is comical.",
">\n\nMan, y'all are sad people. \n\"Get off the road!\" Okay, now we are on the sidewalk. \n\"Get off the sidewalk!\" Back in the road again. \n\"They need to ring their bells so we know they're coming! Btw I hate it when they ring their bells so I know they're coming.\"",
">\n\nI hate cyclists like that. I don’t have a car so my bike is my main source of transportation and I don’t ride like that. So far, from what I’ve noticed in my area, I’m the only one that follows the damn rules in my city xD",
">\n\nNo matter where you are and who you are… driver or walker, scooter or flyer… we ALL hate cyclists.",
">\n\nI feel ya. The only thing I hate more than cyclists is electric scooters.",
">\n\nCompletely agree! A cycling license (similar to driving) should be required. Far too many cyclist who doesn’t know (and those who don’t just give a F) about traffic rules.",
">\n\nI completely agree! Cyclists have a lot of rights on the roads, and are very vocal about them, but think they can do whatever the fuck they want at roundabouts and pedestrian crossings.",
">\n\nIt just fascinates me how anyone can walk or drive through a city and genuinely think that bicycles are the problem. Look around you at every turn there are cars jamming the roads. Parked blocking things. Blocking pavements. Driving aggressively. Speeding. Failing to stop. Polluting the air. If they hit you, you are seriously injured or dead. This happens in the thousands. The city absolutely revolves around them.",
">\n\nYou are 100% right. Except I didn't say bicycles are the problem. I said i hate them. I said fuck cars too. I also said bicycles are one of the best alternative for trafic jam in cities.\nCities in Europe weren't made for cars nor bikes. So the problem is the fucking lazy greedy people who decide how to spend our tax money. The problem is people thinking they are all alone on the street. The problem is how stressed everybody is and how it become dangerous.\nNot because I hate how cyclists take revenge from drivers bullies to pedestrians makes me hate a transportation model itself.",
">\n\nIt just seems odd that people can really harp on about cyclists when they are such a trivial issue. Posts like this can get hundreds of replies. People tend to make excuses about cars.",
">\n\nYou just insulted a whole country.",
">\n\nThe Netherlands? It's ok",
">\n\nOk",
">\n\nI judge the actions of the individual not the mode of transport. I find it produces more accurate results.",
">\n\nApparently \"individuals alone are responsible for their own actions\" is the real unpopular opinion here.",
">\n\nIndeed 😀",
">\n\nAs a car driver I also hate cyclists. Saw one on a 45mph the other day despite there being a sidewalk AND a bikelane",
">\n\n45 mph isn't a speed for bike lane or sidewalk. Street is",
">\n\nas a cyclist, I hate pedestrians.\nMy city put in these nice protected bicycle lanes so bikes don't have to ride inches from cars, and boy don't those pedestrians just LOVE using the bike lane as a queuing up spot for the crosswalks. it's just so nice and convenient to get 5 more feet closer to your goal, isn't it? Those bicycles can stop and wait...and feel free to swear at them like THEY are the ones in the wrong.\nBicycles and pedestrians are natural enemies, that's never going to change. There can be only one.",
">\n\nLET'S END THIS NOW !!!!!",
">\n\nanyplace but Holy Ground.",
">\n\ndon't blame all bicyclists for the shitty ones.\nthat would be like saying every person who drives a car is an asshole. or every person who walks on the sidewalk is an asshole.\nsome people are good at getting around. other people are jerks. don't blame everyone for the actions of a small subset of people.",
">\n\nI mean, isn’t that the sentiment over that the popular sub r/fuckcars? The generalization is already being perpetuated from cyclists and “urbanists” in their war against cars.",
">\n\nNot really. That sub mostly hates the focus on cars when designing infrastructure, as well as the forced dependency on cars in our modern world. Not individual drivers.",
">\n\nSure about that? It’s mostly just a bitch-fest about driver errors to further their political agenda.",
">\n\nYea, I'm pretty sure.",
">\n\nReally weird way to get there if that’s the case. Alienating a large portion of the population (car drivers, car riders, people that depend on vehicles for the delivery of goods and services) is not how you get them on your side.",
">\n\nI don't think that's their goal in the first place. It's just a reddit sub.",
">\n\nEspecially when they have a stupid fucking bell and say \"on the left\" then proceed to be on the right side of the trail running into you",
">\n\nHahahha \"is he coming on the left or should i go on the lef...\" BANG!!",
">\n\nGF lives in a college town. It’s as if there’s some kinda fuckin’ death wish among the student cycling population",
">\n\nAs a [insert anyone, including cyclist], I hate cyclists.",
">\n\nPeople don't wanna hear it when it comes from automobilists because \"gngn cars are more dangerous and drivers are entitled\" but reality is cyclists are just the worst. Whether I'm on foot, driving a car, or riding a bicycle myself, cyclists are always always the ones being absolute public hazards. Heck, when I'm on my bike and stop at the stop sign on a cycle lane to let the cars go, they look at me as if I'm jesus or something. They even try to let me pass first because of how used they are to cyclists who just can't be bothered to respect the damn stop sign.",
">\n\nThe problem isn't the cyclists here, it's the lacking infrastructure.",
">\n\nWe shouldn't have to build infrastructure so people can partake in recreation. I find that comment extremely arrogant. Why on earth do cyclists deserve to have their recreation glorified and catered to??",
">\n\nRecreation? Ah yes, cycling is only for recreation.",
">\n\nWell, where I live that I'd the ONLY purpose. I'm 17 miles from any city municipality. Nobody is biking here to go to the grocery store or work.",
">\n\nNot everything is about you personally.",
">\n\nTo me, it is, and should be. My concern is around how cyclists inconvenience me while I'm trying to be a productive member of society. I feel like that's a fair critique.",
">\n\nYou are mad that cyclists inconvenience you yet you reject dedicated infrastructure as a solution. Do you think cyclists should be banned off the road completely?",
">\n\nThe real issue here is lacking cycling infrastructure.",
">\n\nDefinitely a major issue.\nBut part of the issue is definitely cyclists who prioritize their own speed over the safety and welfare of everyone around them. It's like they are all BMW drivers, deep down, and just don't want to yield to or slow down for anyone.",
">\n\nI'm sure there are, assholes exist in all vehicle types.",
">\n\nCyclists know thar neither the pavement nor the road are theirs because motorists and pedestrians like you are both screaming at them all the time. And I swear you'd be angrier if they didn't give a polite warning that they're coming toward you. \nCyclists who breeze through crossings instead of stopping are a minority, much like cyclists are a minority in general, and you can't judge an entire group that aren't adequately represented",
">\n\nFuck traveling in general",
">\n\nYa. Where are our transporters! \nSorry had to go full nerd.",
">\n\nI see posts like this constantly. It blows my mind people can just choose one thing that is so insignificant to scapegoat. \nThey assume people on bikes don’t also walk, drive, etc like we are essentially subhuman for doing exercise / running errands in this way because they are inconvenienced for a few seconds. You realize we are human like you , right?\nPeople tell us to ride bicycles on the sidewalk when it’s illegal while others say not too. It’s usually against the law.\nThey tell us to ride closer to the right side of the road , so we get hit by a car door and yelled at again. \nThey’re mad that we give a verbal signal that we’re coming up on the left even though that’s the law. \nNow that I’m in Colorado I’m getting yelled at for the Idaho stop, which is completely legal. We yield to stop signs and temporarily stop at red lights only if it’s clear. It’s all to REDUCE CAR TRAFFIC. \nKeep in mind we are riding bicycles which in its own right REDUCES CAR TRAFFIC. \n80% of car trips are within 3 miles from your house. Everyone that rides a bike keeps you from being stuck behind them in traffic for longer then the 20 seconds you’re currently inconvenienced. It’s also mean parking closer to the front door of a shop. \nSo far I’ve had family members die from hit and runs and drunk drivers, but somehow cyclists are the most dangerous thing on the road today?! It’s not adding up.\nWhat is this really about?",
">\n\nI'm sorry for your losses. I never said bikers are the most dangerous things on the road. Saying this would be stupid. The problem in my city is the lack of respect from cyclists to pedestrians in a general way. I'm not even talking about drivers against EVERYTHING ON THE STREET.",
">\n\nI go out of my way to be respectful to everybody, and I’ve had nothing but kindness and respect from other cyclists .\nYou wanna blame everybody on a bicycle for all your problems when it’s really just about a few people who disrespected you. \nCyclists are drivers, walkers, etc. do they just jump on a bicycle and instantly become disrespectful?\nStill doesn’t make any logical sense.",
">\n\nDude you just don't get it.. i understand biking is your life.. but come on.\nI use to bike 40km per day to work. \nI don't have problems with people jumping on bikes. I simply hate the ones that are disrespectful.\nIs it too hard to understand? Just me venting coz I feel like a lot of bikers think they are on top of the citizen pyramid? \nI'm not venting about the system here, nor about cars.. just about some (yes some) bikers.\nAnd please there is no need to beg for upvotes on fuckcars how old are you?",
">\n\nI bet your fat.",
">\n\nOf course I fart !",
">\n\nTo you yours and to mine mine; I hate car users and their ilk who are filled with wonton waste and hate for all else who dare travel near them. I stop at all lights, halt for all signs, use a mirror, lights, and hand signals, pull over for cars coming my way so long as there is any room, and use what little biking infrastructure is available to me.\nMy taxes are waste and paid in folly for they assuredly go in portion to your reckless use of a powerful machine and not to my own reckless use of a small self-propelled stick on two wheels to separate lanes and keep them maintained. No, no, I must settle for the gutter and cry glee for that and be ashamed to move to the sidewalk when it suddenly ends and continues a block later down the road. \nFuck your car, your roads, and your selfish desire to pave the world and create cities with 60% of their coverage dedicated to driving a car, parking a car, and separating the world into places for cars and otherwise. You who drive faster and faster, in bigger and bigger cars. I loath you as you loath mine.",
">\n\nI wouldn’t hate cyclists if they didn’t act like road laws don’t apply to em in the city where I live. I’ve seen cyclists not even stop at red lights even with an almost full intersection, and ride the wrong way down one ways.\nEdit: I do wish the city where I live had more bike lanes but yeah.",
">\n\nIf you're going to hate someone, maybe hate the people actually doing those things.\nIf I see someone on a bike rush through a short break on a red light in an otherwise busy intersection, I shake my head and think they are an idiot. I think this while waiting for the light to turn green on my bike.\nSimilarly, when a car illegally stops in a bike lane (which happens ALL THE TIME by the way), I don't turn around and blame the cars moving along legally in the adjacent lane.",
">\n\nPedestrian are the worst.\nWhen i started using bicicle I was very polite: brake, ring, ask for permission. And what the large amount of people do? Ignore u, watch u in the eyes and take a step in the fucking middle of the trail (many many times! for real!), shout at you just because u exist. So.... At some point is fuck you all, I'm coming go out of the way. That's it",
">\n\n\nI will never drive nor park on a bike lane, always look into the mirror to be careful of one of you monkeys. So why can't you be careful when us peasants are walking?\n\nThis is dumb. Obviously there are plenty of cyclists who are careful and courteous about your safety. That's part of what a bell or \"watch out!\" (generally \"On your left\") is doing for you. And just because you are courteous to them doesn't mean everyone is. Is every driver a douchebag just because some of them crowd cyclists when and where the cyclist has the right to the road? No.",
">\n\nThe difference here is that generally car drivers are going to be held accountable for bad driving. This is in the form of dash cams, ANPR and red light cameras which catch drivers doing bad things and they can receive a fine or points on their licence. Cyclists currently can't be held accountable if they jump red lights or hit a car or pedestrian as there isn't anything that helps identify them. This is a big issue in cities. I live and work in London and see many cyclists jumping red lights and weaving around pedestrians crossing. Cars can't do this as most traffic lights have red light cameras that would catch this.\nDrivers as a collective (including me) are in no way perfect or even held to account 100% of the time, but I believe we need a system for cyclists to be held accountable too",
">\n\nYour way of thinking, while perfectly rational and natural, is outdated. Traffic law enforcement, like any other law enforcement, is less about the enforcement, and more about the prevention. Where I live, speed and red light cameras are clearly marked ahead so that the people who'd normally break the law follow it instead, making punishment unnecessary. \nSame could be done with cyclists. Sure, you could make every cyclist install a license plate, require a \"cycling license\", or install expensive cameras with facial identification software, but how about just make it so cyclists aren't incentivised to break the law in the first place? \nMake more useful cycling infrastructure, and more cyclists will use it. Make that infrastructure intersect with foot and motor traffic more safely and less often, and less collisions will happen.",
">\n\nI completely understand your point. However, a lot of money has gone into my local area for cycling infrastructure that most cyclists are using, but many are still choosing to break the rules as the rules are inconvenient. The infrastructure is not enough, there needs to be an incentive NOT to break the rules.\nIf you take a look at Chiswick High Road in London, England. They have created segregated cycle lanes from the traffic. These cycle lanes have their own lights and crossings to keep them safe from cars. However many cyclists just ignore the lights and just keep going into pedestrians. There is no punishment for them doing this as they can't be tracked. Personally I think every cyclist should have to register their bike (make it free to help encourage this) and then a new form of ANPR used to also catch cyclists in the act",
">\n\nPersonally I'd have no problem registering my bike for free, especially if I could use that same registration if it gets stolen, but registering something as mechanically simple and cheap as a bicycle is, in my opinion difficult if not impossible to do without making the bike mechanically complex and expensive, at which point most people would just switch to scooters.\nI don't live in London, but from what I've heard, by far the biggest threat in the city is still motorized traffic, namely cars and lorries, and so until that problem is no longer a problem, I wouldn't really do anything special about bikes. Maybe put some undercover bike cops near the most dangerous bike path/lane intersections to catch a few offenders and make an example out of them, but that's about it.",
">\n\nMost cars I’ve driven came equipped with brakes and a steering wheel. I don’t see the problem",
">\n\nA common take and a stupid one.\nThere are good and bad drivers, pedestrians, and cyclists. Hating any of them as a group because some of them do bad things is just dumb.",
">\n\nIf you followed the laws and stayed out of the bike lane as a pedestrian there would be no problem.",
">\n\nIf bicyclists followed the laws and stopped ignoring street signs/traffic lights there would be no problem.",
">\n\nDon’t see how this address the problem with pedestrians in bike lanes.",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Drivers pedestrians other cyclists. They're a scourge.",
">\n\nEvery word of this is pure wisdom.",
">\n\nAs a car driver, I too hate cyclists.\nI don't care who has 'right of way'. I'm in a car, you're not. If we collide, regardless of fault, you're the one that dies.\nDo you really want to die on the hill that says \"i can bike on the rode b/c it's legal\"?\nI might be in jail, but you're still dead.\nBikes don't belong on public roads. Unless there's a bike lane - aka, a pathway designed specifically for bikers.\nIt's FAR SAFER to bike on the sidewalk.",
">\n\nBe careful you’ll anger r/fuckcars",
">\n\nI recently got a bike in Japan and there isn't any room on the street to ride my bike. Most people are fine when I'm on the sidewalk, however, the worst ones are groups of 2 or more who try and take up as much space as possible allowing nobody to pass. Same with the people who constantly switch between the left and right side of the sidewalk. It's really annoying to see how little spacial awareness they have.",
">\n\nCyclists on the road don’t have to pass the same test as vehicles on the road, which is why they are so bad. If there was a test in order to cycle on the road then i think it would be alot better",
">\n\nWhy do you hate all cyclists when only some of them are rude/dangerous?",
">\n\nCope hehe",
">\n\nIt's the powered vehicles that kill most pedestrians.\nBut, sure, cyclists blahblah...",
">\n\nAs an occasional cyclist, I don't like you either.",
">\n\nI biked everywhere.....when I was a child. I'm an adult now and have an automobile. They are pretty neat."
] |
>
holy smokes! glad you're ok
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[
"I road cycled for years, I always followed the street rules. Always. Red light means red light. \nI have so many cycling friends who get into accidents and other conflicts with drivers, and yet they think it’s stupid to stop at a red light. They just don’t connect these two things",
">\n\nMost bikers I encounter are complete idiots. Like I'd be driving normally and out of nowhere comes a biker on a crosswalk in full speed. Now, I appreciate bikers who actually stop and make eye contact with me as I'm driving towards the crosswalk but man, it's either that or the biker almost dies because I have no time to brake.\nAnd what's up with all the bikers going like 5 kmh IN THE MIDDLE of a road when there's a dedicated sidewalk for bikers right next to them? Drives me insane.",
">\n\nIt seems like most bikers because of observation bias.\nIf you follow the rules as you should, you’re unmemorable.\nAs for the sidewalks - its actually less safe on the sidewalk.",
">\n\nInteresting. Dangerous situations are more valuable to remember, and I remember tons of irresponsible bikers. It is in fact observation bias. But I'm always happy to see those who pay close attention to traffic, and I do remeber some of them aswell.",
">\n\nWell the same goes for driving. How many cars do you remember when they haven’t done anything? But you tend to remember the ones who do something dumb",
">\n\nYeah it can be applied to anything really.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist in one of the most bike-dense cities in the world, I hate cyclists too. If I could avoid getting myself hurt, I’d be ramming at least ten of them a day just to teach a lesson about ignoring rules and common sense.",
">\n\nAmsterdam? Copenhagen?",
">\n\nCopenhagen. It’s a wonderful bike city but the people are incredibly self-centered.",
">\n\nI had high expectations from cyclists when I first visited the city, after all it is heralded as a cycling paradise and, well, let’s say it looked a lot more like the rest of the world and mainly because of the personal behavior of cyclists.\nMy local friend justified it, stating that it’s because danish are more temperamental than all other Scandinavians: an explanation that I really didn’t know what to do with…",
">\n\nIf “temperamental” means “a bunch of egotistical [insert unflattering body part]”, he’s right.",
">\n\nYou make it sound like a war zone. I live in Copenhagen and most of the time biking around the city is very pleasant. Except for the food delivery scooters, they can 🤬 off.",
">\n\nI guess it depends on how often and where you’re going. If you have places to be each and every day and want to get there effectively, people ignoring general rules and courtesies of the road are a pain. If you’re one of the types listening to podcasts with a latte in one hand and a phone in the other just trudging along, it’s probably fine.",
">\n\nSame! I love walking. Where I live on popular trails, there are bike lanes, but the cyclists will just ride wherever they. They don’t care and won’t let you know they’re coming. They’ll get pissy if you don’t just automatically know they’re coming up from behind you. If you do much as step foot in the bike lane, they get mad, but have no problems riding side by side outside the bike lane.",
">\n\nSame here! So much for my pleasant walk on the beautiful Trail. They sneak up and when they're almost on top of me, a loud voice yells \"On your left!\" They startle the shit out of me and cause me to jump sky high! 😡",
">\n\nIt’s literally the law to say that. This thread is all about hating them no matter if they follow the law or not.",
">\n\nIs it possible to do that without sneaking up on them and startling the shit out of them by yelling real loud? And then cutting is close to them as you possibly can without hitting them?",
">\n\nHello. \nMy useless comment to this post is here :D\nSo, i work in the accidents department of a big insurance company. My country is very strickt about the road rules, meaning:\nOur company estimates (is this the right word?) that around 82% of accidents involving cyclists, are to blame on the cyclist. Since there are expecific places on the road for you to ride your bike, even if it's not a bike lane.\nI remember a case where 3 dudes were just cycling, outside of town and they were literally on the middle of the road. the place where they were is full of curves and has very little visibility, so they were riding side by side, middle of the road, comes a car, hits not one, but the 3 of them because they scared the person and she just swerved the car.\nThey sued her and us (insurance) 2 times. Lost both and had to pay for all damage done on the car by their own bodys",
">\n\nThis sounds like something that happened near by my home town, are you in Ontario?",
">\n\nno XD portugal",
">\n\nGod its so much worse that it's happened in multiple places.\nIn ours I think the driver killed one of the cyclists, then sued the family for emotional damage",
">\n\nMy biggest gripe about cyclists is that there is always some danger when you encounter them on the road, either as a pedestrian or motorist. Now, part of it isn’t their fault. At least here in the US, not much of the infrastructure is made for bicycles. But cyclists are constantly breaking the rules of the road (or sidewalk) to get where they’re going faster. Blowing red lights, leaving the bike lane to use the sidewalk, splitting lanes. I always clench a little when I approach one, wondering if this is the day I can’t get out of the way.",
">\n\nWe have that same problem, but then a million times worse, because I live in The Netherlands. You probably know about our proud cycling culture (the Amsterdam stereotype). And yes, cyclists here are just as bad as the ones you describe, but there’s a lot more of them here. And oh yeah, traffic laws are almost always in their favor.",
">\n\nI found driving in the towns of the Netherlands so hard. Not just because I was on the wrong side of the road 😉 but because I just wasn’t used to sooo many cyclists coming from all directions, always faster than me and passing on both sides. Even as I was signalling to leave a roundabout at one point about three cyclists rode past on the inside. I really struggled to keep up with them all, which of course means I drove slower and thus even more bikes passed me!",
">\n\nYes that is of course very difficult, however as a Dutchman I’m used to cyclists, so of course we struggle a lot less. But that doesn’t take away from the fact that cyclists do cause a lot of issues because of their careless behavior, and because as drivers we have to accommodate them. That one sided ‘deal’ that we have makes it very difficult to deal with them.\nAll in all I’m happy we have so many cyclists as it’s good for the environment. But the utopian mindset of cyclists being a gift to the world is just stupid. Especially when you consider that mostly Americans who drive on wide open roads with barely any cyclists around are the ones praising cyclists in my country all the time. Also, cyclists annoy the hell out of pedestrians as well, so it’s not just about motorists.",
">\n\nCyclists treat red lights like stop signs and stop signs like yield signs (at best). They’re not allowed on sidewalks but do it anyway. Fuckin hate cyclists.",
">\n\nEverything you said is completely legal in Denver and sidewalks are illegal , but drivers constantly scream at cyclists to ride there",
">\n\nCyclist can roll stop signs and run red lights in Denver? What the fuck?",
">\n\nI’d have no problem if cyclist had respect for other road users. where I live there are cycle lanes, but most cyclists are on the road or pavements, they ignore red lights etc. \nIf you want to cycle please make it’s safe for yourself and others around you.",
">\n\nExactly my thoughts",
">\n\nHonestly, selfish assholes exist everywhere but a selfish asshole on a bicycle does a lot less damage than a selfish asshole in a car. \nEDIT: OP's also downvoting everyone who disagrees with him, just fyi.",
">\n\nAs a pedestrian, I hate everyone who's not a pedestrian... And some pedestrians too.",
">\n\nThere's a reason so many cyclists die each year, they all seem to pick and choose which laws they want to follow. Its always safer to assume they'll do whatever they want and everyone else needs to adapt to them.",
">\n\nAs a driver downtown, I don't worry at all about pedestrians at intersections, I can turn my head and assume they will be maybe five feet closer to my car when I look back, (and I trust they won't sprint towards me when I look away, at their own peril), but bikes, they ride so fast, that in the short time I turn my head to check for oncoming traffic, a bike could materialize right beside / infront me, and I risk hitting them or them hitting the side of my car. And that's even in their designated bike lane, that I have to pass through to clear the intersection. And if I drive into a ped at three miles per hour, they will just hit my hood with their fist and call me a stupid motherfucker, or whatever makes them feel justice was served, but if I bump the bike, it will be a big crash, the bicyclist will be all curled up in a ball on the ground, I'll be the bad guy in the eyes of the law and anyone nearby, and I'll probably be late as fuck to wherever it is I'm trying to go to.",
">\n\nI skateboard so I guess I'm good",
">\n\nJust don’t inconvenience narcissistic car drivers by a few seconds.",
">\n\nI think everyone hates cyclists. Cyclists included.",
">\n\nAs a driver, I hate you both",
">\n\nPedestrians are literally the worst. Anyone who has to walk more than 20 feet a day and not to their car are complete losers, and should be jailed on site.",
">\n\nOK, I think that's a bit extreme. But hey, if you're running for public office I'll vote for you. \nI do have to wonder anytime I see someone that I know has the mental faculties to drive who is walking. Usually assume too many DUI's.",
">\n\nr/fuckcars ripping out their hair rn",
">\n\nNot unpopular.\n Everyone hates cyclists.",
">\n\nI casually cycle in the summer. If I'm on a trail, I'll slow down and ring my bell if I see pedestrians, or stop and dismount if there's a lot of people or they don't notice me. Especially on the narrow trails in this woodlot I sometimes go to. \nThe problem is a lot of cyclists, especially in North America, but perhaps other places, just aren't respectful of others. They demand car drivers \"share the road\", but then ride in huge packs, lane split, don't signal turns, run stop signs and red lights, weave in and out of traffic, boot up busy sidewalks at 15-20mph, refuse to use provided bike lanes, etc. There's like a gross sense of entitlement in the cycling community. Dude, you're still a vehicle. There's rules that apply to you, just like there are for cars and motorcycles. Big problem is difficulty/lack of enforcement. Cops have to catch them in the act. Even then they're slippery devils since they're usually more mobile than a cruiser or beat cop on foot. This is why I support plating bikes to make them easily identifiable.",
">\n\n\nThere's like a gross sense of entitlement in the cycling community. Dude, you're still a vehicle. There's rules that apply to you, just like there are for cars and motorcycles.\n\nThat is the problem right there. They want to be treated equal to car owners, yet they do not abide by traffic rules, hence all the accidents.",
">\n\nAs a driver, I concur.",
">\n\nI hate bikers on trails. They're supposed to stop and let hikers by but they never do. They go by so freakin' fast too. It's like come on now!",
">\n\nAs a mostly former cyclist, I often hated cyclists too. Mostly, because so many cyclist are just competitive asshats that suck the pleasure out of their own bike ride by making everything about speed. Like, heaven forbid they have to slow and yield to anyone.\nOnce, I was riding my bicycle with my young daughter on a bike path in the city. A couple cyclist came up and got all pissy at us, saying we need to be out of the cycle lane because we were going too slow and my 8 year old kid wasn't keeping to a narrow lane. It was so hostile - my kid started crying.\nBut that is just so typical, all the time. I've gotten yelled out a few times when I made a full, foot down stop at a redlight because the cyclist behind me was expecting me to either run the redlight or at least go into the crosswalk and dance around (like they do) until it went green. I remember nearly getting run over by cyclists all the time, and yelled at if I was going too slow.\nThat being said, we need to do 100,000 x more in the US towards making bike paths, protected bike lanes, etc., because cyling is a truly great way to get around and I miss it. I just don't miss the self-centered asshats that dominate the cycling community.",
">\n\nThis!",
">\n\nI’ve nothing against cyclists as a group. I prefer to hate all people who do stupid things whether they’re in cars, on bikes or walking. Went to pick my daughter up tonight and counted six cyclists in the dark wearing all black with no lights at all plus one with a light so weak I didn’t see it until I was nearly past him. Tonight it was dumb cyclists, but tomorrow it might be idiots in cars. Hate the idiots not the method of transportation.",
">\n\nTrue !",
">\n\nOMG YES !! I completely agree. Every time i tried to explain this to a friend, they would always look at me like I am crazy for thinking such a thing. But as I walk for 45 minutes every days, it became a reality you can't ignore... I can't count how many times I nearly got hit by a cyclist, it happens every other week. I am starting to think that cyclists should have to go through a \"course\" to learn the basics of using the streets x)\n(Sorry for mistakes, not native here 'x) )",
">\n\nThis is my story lol..",
">\n\nYes, and it also is my personal experience, which is why I posted this..?",
">\n\nYes I totally agree. Just saying \"that's my life\" :) happening in Brussels tho",
">\n\nMy bad x) welp France here, it amazes me in a really bad way how this seems to be such a common phenomenon literaly EVERYWHERE",
">\n\nJ'ai roulé en vélo à Paris et laisse tomber l'enfer que c'était. J'avais l'impression d'avancer avec des oies qui insultaient tout le monde. BAa bAAA BAaaAa !!! \nLe problème c'est que plus les gens sont stressés (même les piétons... Genre dans le metro) plus ils se haïssent et ce matin j'avais la haine sur les vélos.. en vrai j'ai la haine sur tous les citadins haha",
">\n\nas a cyclist I hate everyone",
">\n\nSame, I see posts like this where people tell us to ride on the sidewalk when it’s illegal. \nThey assume we don’t walk anywhere, drive, etc like we are essentially subhuman for doing exercise.\nThey tell us to ride closer to the right side of the road so we get hit by a car door. \nThey’re mad that we give a verbal signal that we’re coming up on the left even though that’s the law. \nnow that I’m in Colorado I’m getting yelled at for the Idaho stop, which is completely legal. We yield to stop signs and temporarily stop at red light only till it’s clear. It’s all to REDUCE CAR TRAFFIC.\nSo far I’ve had family members die from hit and runs and drunk drivers, but somehow cyclists are the most dangerous thing on the road today.\nWhat is this really about?",
">\n\nI loathe cyclists. Selfish, entitled lycra lunatics.",
">\n\nBe honest, do you realize that it's possible to ride a bicycle and not be selfish, or entitled, or a lunatic, or not wear lycra?",
">\n\nThis thread is such a circlejerk, it's ridiculous.",
">\n\nThat's what I'm here for",
">\n\nIt's because cycling isn't regulated like motor vehicles are but they still get on the roads unlike pedestrians. So they don't have knowledge on the rules of the road that drivers have.\nThere's also some sort of hypocrisy they have where they believe drivers should give way to them because bikes are more vulnerable than cars while expecting pedestrians to give way to them because they're moving faster.",
">\n\n\nSo they don't have knowledge on the rules of the road\n\nPlenty do. Many cyclists also are automobilists. They just feel like they're exempted from respecting trafic rules because it's tiring to stop and go on a bike and they're slower an lighter than cars.",
">\n\nSure you got hit by a truck, but at least you managed to save yourself a little time and avoid waiting for a few seconds. Is what I'd say if they didn't then end up in the hospital",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists, as it should be.",
">\n\nCyclists shouldn’t be on sidewalks",
">\n\nI also cringe a lot when I see the international Reddit community constantly praise us Dutch people for our biking culture. People have no idea how many traffic accidents we get that could have been avoided if we didn’t have cyclists EVERYWHERE who are barely aware of the traffic rules that also apply to them.\nPeople have no idea about how cyclists are almost always right according to our traffic laws, which makes them much more reckless. They cause millions of dollars of damage to cars (and pedestrians) each year, and barely ever face consequences for their irresponsible and reckless behavior in traffic.\nPeople don’t see how cyclists often block traffic because they like to cycle next to each other in pairs, and if you honk they get angry and sometimes even aggressive and try to break your side mirror if they feel like it.\nMany intersections have bicycle lanes that you need to check when making a turn when driving, even though the intersection is already super busy with lots of cars. And guess what, cyclists still ride around fast and recklessly and making sure you don’t hit another car, cyclist AND pedestrian is all the job of one single driver.\nSo all in all, people from countries where driving is a relatively easy and chill thing to do, praise cycling culture in other countries. Try to drive here in busy traffic with thousands of cars AND (RECKLESS) CYCLISTS on the road and then tell me what it’s like.",
">\n\nIt would be much easier to sympathize with cars drivers if they did not need like 60% of the entire transit space leaving cyclists and pedestrians very little.\n\neven though the intersection is already super busy with lots of cars\n\nOfc, because cars are so large and need so much space.",
">\n\nI get that, but why is that my fault? I don’t do the city planning. Besides, cars are much larger than bicycles, so doesn’t it make sense there’s more space needed for cars than for bicycles?\nBut even then, if you don’t want to have any sympathy for motorists, because city planners give them more space than others, that’s just weird. It’s not the motorist’s fault.",
">\n\n\ndoesn’t it make sense there’s more space needed for cars than for bicycles?\n\nWhy a valuable and scarce resource such as the public space in cities should be used predominantly to benefit car users while barring everyone else? \nI just find it much harder to sympathize with the privileged group.",
">\n\nBecause people need to be able to go from A to B?",
">\n\nSo do pedestrians/public transport users/cyclists. But they don't require so much space per person.",
">\n\nWell in The Netherlands public transportation takes up an enormous amount of space and cyclists have their own dedicated lanes almost everywhere. Also motorists have to give public transportation space as we usually have to stop for trams and buses to pass, according to traffic rules. Guess who doesn’t often follow those rules: cyclists.\nHowever, public transportation itself is super busy and unbelievably expensive in The Netherlands. It costs more than 20 Euros to travel ~70 kilometers. That’s why a lot of people still prefer to have a car, and cars simply need infrastructure.\nSo I don’t really get your point. Cars, bicycles and public transportation all get a fair portion of the space that’s available.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist, i hate pedestrians. Here in Germany, there is bike lanes, one part for bikes and one for pedestrians on traffic lights... etc. But the pedestrians just ignore them, form \"walls\" of people blocking the bike lane, dont look while crossing the bike lane. Even cars repect us more than you.",
">\n\nThis I understand. Experienced the same in Denmark",
">\n\nClaaaaaarksoooooonnnnn",
">\n\nIdk about other places but here cyclists are constantly breaking the law and never getting ticketed for it. It makes no sense to me. I don’t think it’d make a huge difference but I do think some cyclists would think twice about disregarding the rules if those rules were actually enforced.",
">\n\nI get the sentiment. My feeling is the root cause is they don’t have their own infrastructure. Cars and peds do. So cyclists are always forced into a non ideal path. \nI’m aware they have rights to the road but cars and bikes really struggle to share an infrastructure clearly made for cars. \nSo if we invest in cycling infrastructure everyone would probably be happier.",
">\n\ndoubt it. In my city there is an asphalt bike path for miles that is like 8 feet wide. Smooth. No stop signs. Do they use it? nope they get their collective ass out on the street and I honestly don't have a clue why.\nIt defies logic. Safter, smooth, not cars/trunks, etc. Here they are out on the street just fiddle farting down a 45 mph road like they own it with a bike path 15 feet away with no one on it. The last guy I asked said \"It is my road as well you know\" that I ran up on while I was at a crossing while riding on the path myself. I just gave up trying to understand. Someone dies on that road every couple of months from bike or pedestrian strike with a vehicle. It was the whole reason they built the path....",
">\n\nWell in my experience there are 2 thing going on there.\na) Often bikers will avoid the path because peds often share or walk across those paths and their speed is closer to that of a car than a ped or \nb) If they are commuting...the path likely isn't going exactly where they need to.\nAs to your specific scenario I don't doubt there are bikers that are hard headed and stubborn. I know a few of those. But generally I do bikers using the infrastructure where we have built it.",
">\n\nThere's an accident here involving @ car running over a cyclist who crossed a red traffic light. And guess who take the blame?",
">\n\nLaughs in being dutch",
">\n\nIt is regrettable that a handful of asshole cyclists ruins everyone’s opinion of us. It really undermines the support needed to improve infrastructure for cycling. \nIf it is any help, when i ring my bell, I am doing so to avoid the alternatives of either yelling a warning or startling people. I normally exit the path and pass on the grass. I would say that most cyclist are the same. I don’t want you to get out of the way, I want you to know I am there. \nBut it only takes a couple assholes that think they own the path or the street. I have a cousin like this and it is difficult to convince him his is wrong and is putting himself and others in danger.",
">\n\nI think the a-holes are people that are only on a bike because it's the easiest thing for them, living where they do. You and those like you are on the bike because you love cycling.",
">\n\nI live in Portland, OR, and the cyclists here are so fucking rude and entitled.",
">\n\nI live in not-Portland OR and visited once. I biked down the road. Could not believe how nice everyone was to me. Probably because they could tell I’m an outsider.",
">\n\nI meant how they treat everyone else who isn't on a bike, tbh.",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists and it's for a simple reason. They think they can do whatever the hell they want. They switch between a pedestrian, a cyclist and a vehicle deciding on the fly whatever rules they feel like following with no accountability. \nOne minute they are skipping traffic, then they are deciding to cross at a crosswalk instead of following traffic. And the sidewalks are bike lanes if that's more convenient.",
">\n\nI just get annoyed because they will ride double wide on a tight street, forcing you to go 60mph in a 45, on the opposite side of traffic, risking a head on collision. And yea, you have to do that, because otherwise cars behind you will start driving aggressive as well as the fact that your expecting all the cars to go at a bikes speed on the road.",
">\n\nThat's because every country except for the Netherlands and Denmark have shit bicycle infrastructure.",
">\n\nI civilised countries we have cycling paths and cycling on the street is also possible as drivers aren't insane. So this seems rather like a problem of poor urban planning than cyclists in general.",
">\n\nWhere I live the cyclists just refuse to take the bikelane and either block the traffic because the rather use the street or they decide to use the pedestrian side of the sidewalk. The frickin bikelane is as big as the pedestrian one. There is no excuse not to use it and they still won't! One of them almost hit me if I hadn't dodge it. If the cyclist only drove a few inches to the left there would have been a bikelane and it wouldn't happened. Of course the person didn't apologize and just cursed at me.",
">\n\nBike gutters are awful and less safe than taking the lane. Assholes park in the bike lanes ALL THE TIME. Plus no one ever looks behind them when getting out pf their car so getting smacked by a door is a real danger. Drivers are entitled but it’s not their fault it’s the way we’ve built society to allow and expect them to be.\nETA: next time you’re driving around take a count how many people you see pulled over or parked in a bike gutter.",
">\n\nCompletely agree - I was ran over almost 3 times in Berlin. \nAnd every single time I checked before crossing - but they just suddenly spawned right in the way",
">\n\nDid you cross at a designated crosswalk? As a cyclist the amount of times people just randomly meander across an active street instead of going to the zebra/lollipop crossing, and then get angry at me when I have to swerve out the way/ brake is comical.",
">\n\nMan, y'all are sad people. \n\"Get off the road!\" Okay, now we are on the sidewalk. \n\"Get off the sidewalk!\" Back in the road again. \n\"They need to ring their bells so we know they're coming! Btw I hate it when they ring their bells so I know they're coming.\"",
">\n\nI hate cyclists like that. I don’t have a car so my bike is my main source of transportation and I don’t ride like that. So far, from what I’ve noticed in my area, I’m the only one that follows the damn rules in my city xD",
">\n\nNo matter where you are and who you are… driver or walker, scooter or flyer… we ALL hate cyclists.",
">\n\nI feel ya. The only thing I hate more than cyclists is electric scooters.",
">\n\nCompletely agree! A cycling license (similar to driving) should be required. Far too many cyclist who doesn’t know (and those who don’t just give a F) about traffic rules.",
">\n\nI completely agree! Cyclists have a lot of rights on the roads, and are very vocal about them, but think they can do whatever the fuck they want at roundabouts and pedestrian crossings.",
">\n\nIt just fascinates me how anyone can walk or drive through a city and genuinely think that bicycles are the problem. Look around you at every turn there are cars jamming the roads. Parked blocking things. Blocking pavements. Driving aggressively. Speeding. Failing to stop. Polluting the air. If they hit you, you are seriously injured or dead. This happens in the thousands. The city absolutely revolves around them.",
">\n\nYou are 100% right. Except I didn't say bicycles are the problem. I said i hate them. I said fuck cars too. I also said bicycles are one of the best alternative for trafic jam in cities.\nCities in Europe weren't made for cars nor bikes. So the problem is the fucking lazy greedy people who decide how to spend our tax money. The problem is people thinking they are all alone on the street. The problem is how stressed everybody is and how it become dangerous.\nNot because I hate how cyclists take revenge from drivers bullies to pedestrians makes me hate a transportation model itself.",
">\n\nIt just seems odd that people can really harp on about cyclists when they are such a trivial issue. Posts like this can get hundreds of replies. People tend to make excuses about cars.",
">\n\nYou just insulted a whole country.",
">\n\nThe Netherlands? It's ok",
">\n\nOk",
">\n\nI judge the actions of the individual not the mode of transport. I find it produces more accurate results.",
">\n\nApparently \"individuals alone are responsible for their own actions\" is the real unpopular opinion here.",
">\n\nIndeed 😀",
">\n\nAs a car driver I also hate cyclists. Saw one on a 45mph the other day despite there being a sidewalk AND a bikelane",
">\n\n45 mph isn't a speed for bike lane or sidewalk. Street is",
">\n\nas a cyclist, I hate pedestrians.\nMy city put in these nice protected bicycle lanes so bikes don't have to ride inches from cars, and boy don't those pedestrians just LOVE using the bike lane as a queuing up spot for the crosswalks. it's just so nice and convenient to get 5 more feet closer to your goal, isn't it? Those bicycles can stop and wait...and feel free to swear at them like THEY are the ones in the wrong.\nBicycles and pedestrians are natural enemies, that's never going to change. There can be only one.",
">\n\nLET'S END THIS NOW !!!!!",
">\n\nanyplace but Holy Ground.",
">\n\ndon't blame all bicyclists for the shitty ones.\nthat would be like saying every person who drives a car is an asshole. or every person who walks on the sidewalk is an asshole.\nsome people are good at getting around. other people are jerks. don't blame everyone for the actions of a small subset of people.",
">\n\nI mean, isn’t that the sentiment over that the popular sub r/fuckcars? The generalization is already being perpetuated from cyclists and “urbanists” in their war against cars.",
">\n\nNot really. That sub mostly hates the focus on cars when designing infrastructure, as well as the forced dependency on cars in our modern world. Not individual drivers.",
">\n\nSure about that? It’s mostly just a bitch-fest about driver errors to further their political agenda.",
">\n\nYea, I'm pretty sure.",
">\n\nReally weird way to get there if that’s the case. Alienating a large portion of the population (car drivers, car riders, people that depend on vehicles for the delivery of goods and services) is not how you get them on your side.",
">\n\nI don't think that's their goal in the first place. It's just a reddit sub.",
">\n\nEspecially when they have a stupid fucking bell and say \"on the left\" then proceed to be on the right side of the trail running into you",
">\n\nHahahha \"is he coming on the left or should i go on the lef...\" BANG!!",
">\n\nGF lives in a college town. It’s as if there’s some kinda fuckin’ death wish among the student cycling population",
">\n\nAs a [insert anyone, including cyclist], I hate cyclists.",
">\n\nPeople don't wanna hear it when it comes from automobilists because \"gngn cars are more dangerous and drivers are entitled\" but reality is cyclists are just the worst. Whether I'm on foot, driving a car, or riding a bicycle myself, cyclists are always always the ones being absolute public hazards. Heck, when I'm on my bike and stop at the stop sign on a cycle lane to let the cars go, they look at me as if I'm jesus or something. They even try to let me pass first because of how used they are to cyclists who just can't be bothered to respect the damn stop sign.",
">\n\nThe problem isn't the cyclists here, it's the lacking infrastructure.",
">\n\nWe shouldn't have to build infrastructure so people can partake in recreation. I find that comment extremely arrogant. Why on earth do cyclists deserve to have their recreation glorified and catered to??",
">\n\nRecreation? Ah yes, cycling is only for recreation.",
">\n\nWell, where I live that I'd the ONLY purpose. I'm 17 miles from any city municipality. Nobody is biking here to go to the grocery store or work.",
">\n\nNot everything is about you personally.",
">\n\nTo me, it is, and should be. My concern is around how cyclists inconvenience me while I'm trying to be a productive member of society. I feel like that's a fair critique.",
">\n\nYou are mad that cyclists inconvenience you yet you reject dedicated infrastructure as a solution. Do you think cyclists should be banned off the road completely?",
">\n\nThe real issue here is lacking cycling infrastructure.",
">\n\nDefinitely a major issue.\nBut part of the issue is definitely cyclists who prioritize their own speed over the safety and welfare of everyone around them. It's like they are all BMW drivers, deep down, and just don't want to yield to or slow down for anyone.",
">\n\nI'm sure there are, assholes exist in all vehicle types.",
">\n\nCyclists know thar neither the pavement nor the road are theirs because motorists and pedestrians like you are both screaming at them all the time. And I swear you'd be angrier if they didn't give a polite warning that they're coming toward you. \nCyclists who breeze through crossings instead of stopping are a minority, much like cyclists are a minority in general, and you can't judge an entire group that aren't adequately represented",
">\n\nFuck traveling in general",
">\n\nYa. Where are our transporters! \nSorry had to go full nerd.",
">\n\nI see posts like this constantly. It blows my mind people can just choose one thing that is so insignificant to scapegoat. \nThey assume people on bikes don’t also walk, drive, etc like we are essentially subhuman for doing exercise / running errands in this way because they are inconvenienced for a few seconds. You realize we are human like you , right?\nPeople tell us to ride bicycles on the sidewalk when it’s illegal while others say not too. It’s usually against the law.\nThey tell us to ride closer to the right side of the road , so we get hit by a car door and yelled at again. \nThey’re mad that we give a verbal signal that we’re coming up on the left even though that’s the law. \nNow that I’m in Colorado I’m getting yelled at for the Idaho stop, which is completely legal. We yield to stop signs and temporarily stop at red lights only if it’s clear. It’s all to REDUCE CAR TRAFFIC. \nKeep in mind we are riding bicycles which in its own right REDUCES CAR TRAFFIC. \n80% of car trips are within 3 miles from your house. Everyone that rides a bike keeps you from being stuck behind them in traffic for longer then the 20 seconds you’re currently inconvenienced. It’s also mean parking closer to the front door of a shop. \nSo far I’ve had family members die from hit and runs and drunk drivers, but somehow cyclists are the most dangerous thing on the road today?! It’s not adding up.\nWhat is this really about?",
">\n\nI'm sorry for your losses. I never said bikers are the most dangerous things on the road. Saying this would be stupid. The problem in my city is the lack of respect from cyclists to pedestrians in a general way. I'm not even talking about drivers against EVERYTHING ON THE STREET.",
">\n\nI go out of my way to be respectful to everybody, and I’ve had nothing but kindness and respect from other cyclists .\nYou wanna blame everybody on a bicycle for all your problems when it’s really just about a few people who disrespected you. \nCyclists are drivers, walkers, etc. do they just jump on a bicycle and instantly become disrespectful?\nStill doesn’t make any logical sense.",
">\n\nDude you just don't get it.. i understand biking is your life.. but come on.\nI use to bike 40km per day to work. \nI don't have problems with people jumping on bikes. I simply hate the ones that are disrespectful.\nIs it too hard to understand? Just me venting coz I feel like a lot of bikers think they are on top of the citizen pyramid? \nI'm not venting about the system here, nor about cars.. just about some (yes some) bikers.\nAnd please there is no need to beg for upvotes on fuckcars how old are you?",
">\n\nI bet your fat.",
">\n\nOf course I fart !",
">\n\nTo you yours and to mine mine; I hate car users and their ilk who are filled with wonton waste and hate for all else who dare travel near them. I stop at all lights, halt for all signs, use a mirror, lights, and hand signals, pull over for cars coming my way so long as there is any room, and use what little biking infrastructure is available to me.\nMy taxes are waste and paid in folly for they assuredly go in portion to your reckless use of a powerful machine and not to my own reckless use of a small self-propelled stick on two wheels to separate lanes and keep them maintained. No, no, I must settle for the gutter and cry glee for that and be ashamed to move to the sidewalk when it suddenly ends and continues a block later down the road. \nFuck your car, your roads, and your selfish desire to pave the world and create cities with 60% of their coverage dedicated to driving a car, parking a car, and separating the world into places for cars and otherwise. You who drive faster and faster, in bigger and bigger cars. I loath you as you loath mine.",
">\n\nI wouldn’t hate cyclists if they didn’t act like road laws don’t apply to em in the city where I live. I’ve seen cyclists not even stop at red lights even with an almost full intersection, and ride the wrong way down one ways.\nEdit: I do wish the city where I live had more bike lanes but yeah.",
">\n\nIf you're going to hate someone, maybe hate the people actually doing those things.\nIf I see someone on a bike rush through a short break on a red light in an otherwise busy intersection, I shake my head and think they are an idiot. I think this while waiting for the light to turn green on my bike.\nSimilarly, when a car illegally stops in a bike lane (which happens ALL THE TIME by the way), I don't turn around and blame the cars moving along legally in the adjacent lane.",
">\n\nPedestrian are the worst.\nWhen i started using bicicle I was very polite: brake, ring, ask for permission. And what the large amount of people do? Ignore u, watch u in the eyes and take a step in the fucking middle of the trail (many many times! for real!), shout at you just because u exist. So.... At some point is fuck you all, I'm coming go out of the way. That's it",
">\n\n\nI will never drive nor park on a bike lane, always look into the mirror to be careful of one of you monkeys. So why can't you be careful when us peasants are walking?\n\nThis is dumb. Obviously there are plenty of cyclists who are careful and courteous about your safety. That's part of what a bell or \"watch out!\" (generally \"On your left\") is doing for you. And just because you are courteous to them doesn't mean everyone is. Is every driver a douchebag just because some of them crowd cyclists when and where the cyclist has the right to the road? No.",
">\n\nThe difference here is that generally car drivers are going to be held accountable for bad driving. This is in the form of dash cams, ANPR and red light cameras which catch drivers doing bad things and they can receive a fine or points on their licence. Cyclists currently can't be held accountable if they jump red lights or hit a car or pedestrian as there isn't anything that helps identify them. This is a big issue in cities. I live and work in London and see many cyclists jumping red lights and weaving around pedestrians crossing. Cars can't do this as most traffic lights have red light cameras that would catch this.\nDrivers as a collective (including me) are in no way perfect or even held to account 100% of the time, but I believe we need a system for cyclists to be held accountable too",
">\n\nYour way of thinking, while perfectly rational and natural, is outdated. Traffic law enforcement, like any other law enforcement, is less about the enforcement, and more about the prevention. Where I live, speed and red light cameras are clearly marked ahead so that the people who'd normally break the law follow it instead, making punishment unnecessary. \nSame could be done with cyclists. Sure, you could make every cyclist install a license plate, require a \"cycling license\", or install expensive cameras with facial identification software, but how about just make it so cyclists aren't incentivised to break the law in the first place? \nMake more useful cycling infrastructure, and more cyclists will use it. Make that infrastructure intersect with foot and motor traffic more safely and less often, and less collisions will happen.",
">\n\nI completely understand your point. However, a lot of money has gone into my local area for cycling infrastructure that most cyclists are using, but many are still choosing to break the rules as the rules are inconvenient. The infrastructure is not enough, there needs to be an incentive NOT to break the rules.\nIf you take a look at Chiswick High Road in London, England. They have created segregated cycle lanes from the traffic. These cycle lanes have their own lights and crossings to keep them safe from cars. However many cyclists just ignore the lights and just keep going into pedestrians. There is no punishment for them doing this as they can't be tracked. Personally I think every cyclist should have to register their bike (make it free to help encourage this) and then a new form of ANPR used to also catch cyclists in the act",
">\n\nPersonally I'd have no problem registering my bike for free, especially if I could use that same registration if it gets stolen, but registering something as mechanically simple and cheap as a bicycle is, in my opinion difficult if not impossible to do without making the bike mechanically complex and expensive, at which point most people would just switch to scooters.\nI don't live in London, but from what I've heard, by far the biggest threat in the city is still motorized traffic, namely cars and lorries, and so until that problem is no longer a problem, I wouldn't really do anything special about bikes. Maybe put some undercover bike cops near the most dangerous bike path/lane intersections to catch a few offenders and make an example out of them, but that's about it.",
">\n\nMost cars I’ve driven came equipped with brakes and a steering wheel. I don’t see the problem",
">\n\nA common take and a stupid one.\nThere are good and bad drivers, pedestrians, and cyclists. Hating any of them as a group because some of them do bad things is just dumb.",
">\n\nIf you followed the laws and stayed out of the bike lane as a pedestrian there would be no problem.",
">\n\nIf bicyclists followed the laws and stopped ignoring street signs/traffic lights there would be no problem.",
">\n\nDon’t see how this address the problem with pedestrians in bike lanes.",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Drivers pedestrians other cyclists. They're a scourge.",
">\n\nEvery word of this is pure wisdom.",
">\n\nAs a car driver, I too hate cyclists.\nI don't care who has 'right of way'. I'm in a car, you're not. If we collide, regardless of fault, you're the one that dies.\nDo you really want to die on the hill that says \"i can bike on the rode b/c it's legal\"?\nI might be in jail, but you're still dead.\nBikes don't belong on public roads. Unless there's a bike lane - aka, a pathway designed specifically for bikers.\nIt's FAR SAFER to bike on the sidewalk.",
">\n\nBe careful you’ll anger r/fuckcars",
">\n\nI recently got a bike in Japan and there isn't any room on the street to ride my bike. Most people are fine when I'm on the sidewalk, however, the worst ones are groups of 2 or more who try and take up as much space as possible allowing nobody to pass. Same with the people who constantly switch between the left and right side of the sidewalk. It's really annoying to see how little spacial awareness they have.",
">\n\nCyclists on the road don’t have to pass the same test as vehicles on the road, which is why they are so bad. If there was a test in order to cycle on the road then i think it would be alot better",
">\n\nWhy do you hate all cyclists when only some of them are rude/dangerous?",
">\n\nCope hehe",
">\n\nIt's the powered vehicles that kill most pedestrians.\nBut, sure, cyclists blahblah...",
">\n\nAs an occasional cyclist, I don't like you either.",
">\n\nI biked everywhere.....when I was a child. I'm an adult now and have an automobile. They are pretty neat.",
">\n\nWhen I used to have to walk to work I’d walk on the sidewalk and listen to music and one time this guy zipped right by me yelling almost knocking me over and flipped me off?? They act like they don’t have breaks lmao"
] |
>
Everyone hates cyclists. Even cyclists.
|
[
"I road cycled for years, I always followed the street rules. Always. Red light means red light. \nI have so many cycling friends who get into accidents and other conflicts with drivers, and yet they think it’s stupid to stop at a red light. They just don’t connect these two things",
">\n\nMost bikers I encounter are complete idiots. Like I'd be driving normally and out of nowhere comes a biker on a crosswalk in full speed. Now, I appreciate bikers who actually stop and make eye contact with me as I'm driving towards the crosswalk but man, it's either that or the biker almost dies because I have no time to brake.\nAnd what's up with all the bikers going like 5 kmh IN THE MIDDLE of a road when there's a dedicated sidewalk for bikers right next to them? Drives me insane.",
">\n\nIt seems like most bikers because of observation bias.\nIf you follow the rules as you should, you’re unmemorable.\nAs for the sidewalks - its actually less safe on the sidewalk.",
">\n\nInteresting. Dangerous situations are more valuable to remember, and I remember tons of irresponsible bikers. It is in fact observation bias. But I'm always happy to see those who pay close attention to traffic, and I do remeber some of them aswell.",
">\n\nWell the same goes for driving. How many cars do you remember when they haven’t done anything? But you tend to remember the ones who do something dumb",
">\n\nYeah it can be applied to anything really.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist in one of the most bike-dense cities in the world, I hate cyclists too. If I could avoid getting myself hurt, I’d be ramming at least ten of them a day just to teach a lesson about ignoring rules and common sense.",
">\n\nAmsterdam? Copenhagen?",
">\n\nCopenhagen. It’s a wonderful bike city but the people are incredibly self-centered.",
">\n\nI had high expectations from cyclists when I first visited the city, after all it is heralded as a cycling paradise and, well, let’s say it looked a lot more like the rest of the world and mainly because of the personal behavior of cyclists.\nMy local friend justified it, stating that it’s because danish are more temperamental than all other Scandinavians: an explanation that I really didn’t know what to do with…",
">\n\nIf “temperamental” means “a bunch of egotistical [insert unflattering body part]”, he’s right.",
">\n\nYou make it sound like a war zone. I live in Copenhagen and most of the time biking around the city is very pleasant. Except for the food delivery scooters, they can 🤬 off.",
">\n\nI guess it depends on how often and where you’re going. If you have places to be each and every day and want to get there effectively, people ignoring general rules and courtesies of the road are a pain. If you’re one of the types listening to podcasts with a latte in one hand and a phone in the other just trudging along, it’s probably fine.",
">\n\nSame! I love walking. Where I live on popular trails, there are bike lanes, but the cyclists will just ride wherever they. They don’t care and won’t let you know they’re coming. They’ll get pissy if you don’t just automatically know they’re coming up from behind you. If you do much as step foot in the bike lane, they get mad, but have no problems riding side by side outside the bike lane.",
">\n\nSame here! So much for my pleasant walk on the beautiful Trail. They sneak up and when they're almost on top of me, a loud voice yells \"On your left!\" They startle the shit out of me and cause me to jump sky high! 😡",
">\n\nIt’s literally the law to say that. This thread is all about hating them no matter if they follow the law or not.",
">\n\nIs it possible to do that without sneaking up on them and startling the shit out of them by yelling real loud? And then cutting is close to them as you possibly can without hitting them?",
">\n\nHello. \nMy useless comment to this post is here :D\nSo, i work in the accidents department of a big insurance company. My country is very strickt about the road rules, meaning:\nOur company estimates (is this the right word?) that around 82% of accidents involving cyclists, are to blame on the cyclist. Since there are expecific places on the road for you to ride your bike, even if it's not a bike lane.\nI remember a case where 3 dudes were just cycling, outside of town and they were literally on the middle of the road. the place where they were is full of curves and has very little visibility, so they were riding side by side, middle of the road, comes a car, hits not one, but the 3 of them because they scared the person and she just swerved the car.\nThey sued her and us (insurance) 2 times. Lost both and had to pay for all damage done on the car by their own bodys",
">\n\nThis sounds like something that happened near by my home town, are you in Ontario?",
">\n\nno XD portugal",
">\n\nGod its so much worse that it's happened in multiple places.\nIn ours I think the driver killed one of the cyclists, then sued the family for emotional damage",
">\n\nMy biggest gripe about cyclists is that there is always some danger when you encounter them on the road, either as a pedestrian or motorist. Now, part of it isn’t their fault. At least here in the US, not much of the infrastructure is made for bicycles. But cyclists are constantly breaking the rules of the road (or sidewalk) to get where they’re going faster. Blowing red lights, leaving the bike lane to use the sidewalk, splitting lanes. I always clench a little when I approach one, wondering if this is the day I can’t get out of the way.",
">\n\nWe have that same problem, but then a million times worse, because I live in The Netherlands. You probably know about our proud cycling culture (the Amsterdam stereotype). And yes, cyclists here are just as bad as the ones you describe, but there’s a lot more of them here. And oh yeah, traffic laws are almost always in their favor.",
">\n\nI found driving in the towns of the Netherlands so hard. Not just because I was on the wrong side of the road 😉 but because I just wasn’t used to sooo many cyclists coming from all directions, always faster than me and passing on both sides. Even as I was signalling to leave a roundabout at one point about three cyclists rode past on the inside. I really struggled to keep up with them all, which of course means I drove slower and thus even more bikes passed me!",
">\n\nYes that is of course very difficult, however as a Dutchman I’m used to cyclists, so of course we struggle a lot less. But that doesn’t take away from the fact that cyclists do cause a lot of issues because of their careless behavior, and because as drivers we have to accommodate them. That one sided ‘deal’ that we have makes it very difficult to deal with them.\nAll in all I’m happy we have so many cyclists as it’s good for the environment. But the utopian mindset of cyclists being a gift to the world is just stupid. Especially when you consider that mostly Americans who drive on wide open roads with barely any cyclists around are the ones praising cyclists in my country all the time. Also, cyclists annoy the hell out of pedestrians as well, so it’s not just about motorists.",
">\n\nCyclists treat red lights like stop signs and stop signs like yield signs (at best). They’re not allowed on sidewalks but do it anyway. Fuckin hate cyclists.",
">\n\nEverything you said is completely legal in Denver and sidewalks are illegal , but drivers constantly scream at cyclists to ride there",
">\n\nCyclist can roll stop signs and run red lights in Denver? What the fuck?",
">\n\nI’d have no problem if cyclist had respect for other road users. where I live there are cycle lanes, but most cyclists are on the road or pavements, they ignore red lights etc. \nIf you want to cycle please make it’s safe for yourself and others around you.",
">\n\nExactly my thoughts",
">\n\nHonestly, selfish assholes exist everywhere but a selfish asshole on a bicycle does a lot less damage than a selfish asshole in a car. \nEDIT: OP's also downvoting everyone who disagrees with him, just fyi.",
">\n\nAs a pedestrian, I hate everyone who's not a pedestrian... And some pedestrians too.",
">\n\nThere's a reason so many cyclists die each year, they all seem to pick and choose which laws they want to follow. Its always safer to assume they'll do whatever they want and everyone else needs to adapt to them.",
">\n\nAs a driver downtown, I don't worry at all about pedestrians at intersections, I can turn my head and assume they will be maybe five feet closer to my car when I look back, (and I trust they won't sprint towards me when I look away, at their own peril), but bikes, they ride so fast, that in the short time I turn my head to check for oncoming traffic, a bike could materialize right beside / infront me, and I risk hitting them or them hitting the side of my car. And that's even in their designated bike lane, that I have to pass through to clear the intersection. And if I drive into a ped at three miles per hour, they will just hit my hood with their fist and call me a stupid motherfucker, or whatever makes them feel justice was served, but if I bump the bike, it will be a big crash, the bicyclist will be all curled up in a ball on the ground, I'll be the bad guy in the eyes of the law and anyone nearby, and I'll probably be late as fuck to wherever it is I'm trying to go to.",
">\n\nI skateboard so I guess I'm good",
">\n\nJust don’t inconvenience narcissistic car drivers by a few seconds.",
">\n\nI think everyone hates cyclists. Cyclists included.",
">\n\nAs a driver, I hate you both",
">\n\nPedestrians are literally the worst. Anyone who has to walk more than 20 feet a day and not to their car are complete losers, and should be jailed on site.",
">\n\nOK, I think that's a bit extreme. But hey, if you're running for public office I'll vote for you. \nI do have to wonder anytime I see someone that I know has the mental faculties to drive who is walking. Usually assume too many DUI's.",
">\n\nr/fuckcars ripping out their hair rn",
">\n\nNot unpopular.\n Everyone hates cyclists.",
">\n\nI casually cycle in the summer. If I'm on a trail, I'll slow down and ring my bell if I see pedestrians, or stop and dismount if there's a lot of people or they don't notice me. Especially on the narrow trails in this woodlot I sometimes go to. \nThe problem is a lot of cyclists, especially in North America, but perhaps other places, just aren't respectful of others. They demand car drivers \"share the road\", but then ride in huge packs, lane split, don't signal turns, run stop signs and red lights, weave in and out of traffic, boot up busy sidewalks at 15-20mph, refuse to use provided bike lanes, etc. There's like a gross sense of entitlement in the cycling community. Dude, you're still a vehicle. There's rules that apply to you, just like there are for cars and motorcycles. Big problem is difficulty/lack of enforcement. Cops have to catch them in the act. Even then they're slippery devils since they're usually more mobile than a cruiser or beat cop on foot. This is why I support plating bikes to make them easily identifiable.",
">\n\n\nThere's like a gross sense of entitlement in the cycling community. Dude, you're still a vehicle. There's rules that apply to you, just like there are for cars and motorcycles.\n\nThat is the problem right there. They want to be treated equal to car owners, yet they do not abide by traffic rules, hence all the accidents.",
">\n\nAs a driver, I concur.",
">\n\nI hate bikers on trails. They're supposed to stop and let hikers by but they never do. They go by so freakin' fast too. It's like come on now!",
">\n\nAs a mostly former cyclist, I often hated cyclists too. Mostly, because so many cyclist are just competitive asshats that suck the pleasure out of their own bike ride by making everything about speed. Like, heaven forbid they have to slow and yield to anyone.\nOnce, I was riding my bicycle with my young daughter on a bike path in the city. A couple cyclist came up and got all pissy at us, saying we need to be out of the cycle lane because we were going too slow and my 8 year old kid wasn't keeping to a narrow lane. It was so hostile - my kid started crying.\nBut that is just so typical, all the time. I've gotten yelled out a few times when I made a full, foot down stop at a redlight because the cyclist behind me was expecting me to either run the redlight or at least go into the crosswalk and dance around (like they do) until it went green. I remember nearly getting run over by cyclists all the time, and yelled at if I was going too slow.\nThat being said, we need to do 100,000 x more in the US towards making bike paths, protected bike lanes, etc., because cyling is a truly great way to get around and I miss it. I just don't miss the self-centered asshats that dominate the cycling community.",
">\n\nThis!",
">\n\nI’ve nothing against cyclists as a group. I prefer to hate all people who do stupid things whether they’re in cars, on bikes or walking. Went to pick my daughter up tonight and counted six cyclists in the dark wearing all black with no lights at all plus one with a light so weak I didn’t see it until I was nearly past him. Tonight it was dumb cyclists, but tomorrow it might be idiots in cars. Hate the idiots not the method of transportation.",
">\n\nTrue !",
">\n\nOMG YES !! I completely agree. Every time i tried to explain this to a friend, they would always look at me like I am crazy for thinking such a thing. But as I walk for 45 minutes every days, it became a reality you can't ignore... I can't count how many times I nearly got hit by a cyclist, it happens every other week. I am starting to think that cyclists should have to go through a \"course\" to learn the basics of using the streets x)\n(Sorry for mistakes, not native here 'x) )",
">\n\nThis is my story lol..",
">\n\nYes, and it also is my personal experience, which is why I posted this..?",
">\n\nYes I totally agree. Just saying \"that's my life\" :) happening in Brussels tho",
">\n\nMy bad x) welp France here, it amazes me in a really bad way how this seems to be such a common phenomenon literaly EVERYWHERE",
">\n\nJ'ai roulé en vélo à Paris et laisse tomber l'enfer que c'était. J'avais l'impression d'avancer avec des oies qui insultaient tout le monde. BAa bAAA BAaaAa !!! \nLe problème c'est que plus les gens sont stressés (même les piétons... Genre dans le metro) plus ils se haïssent et ce matin j'avais la haine sur les vélos.. en vrai j'ai la haine sur tous les citadins haha",
">\n\nas a cyclist I hate everyone",
">\n\nSame, I see posts like this where people tell us to ride on the sidewalk when it’s illegal. \nThey assume we don’t walk anywhere, drive, etc like we are essentially subhuman for doing exercise.\nThey tell us to ride closer to the right side of the road so we get hit by a car door. \nThey’re mad that we give a verbal signal that we’re coming up on the left even though that’s the law. \nnow that I’m in Colorado I’m getting yelled at for the Idaho stop, which is completely legal. We yield to stop signs and temporarily stop at red light only till it’s clear. It’s all to REDUCE CAR TRAFFIC.\nSo far I’ve had family members die from hit and runs and drunk drivers, but somehow cyclists are the most dangerous thing on the road today.\nWhat is this really about?",
">\n\nI loathe cyclists. Selfish, entitled lycra lunatics.",
">\n\nBe honest, do you realize that it's possible to ride a bicycle and not be selfish, or entitled, or a lunatic, or not wear lycra?",
">\n\nThis thread is such a circlejerk, it's ridiculous.",
">\n\nThat's what I'm here for",
">\n\nIt's because cycling isn't regulated like motor vehicles are but they still get on the roads unlike pedestrians. So they don't have knowledge on the rules of the road that drivers have.\nThere's also some sort of hypocrisy they have where they believe drivers should give way to them because bikes are more vulnerable than cars while expecting pedestrians to give way to them because they're moving faster.",
">\n\n\nSo they don't have knowledge on the rules of the road\n\nPlenty do. Many cyclists also are automobilists. They just feel like they're exempted from respecting trafic rules because it's tiring to stop and go on a bike and they're slower an lighter than cars.",
">\n\nSure you got hit by a truck, but at least you managed to save yourself a little time and avoid waiting for a few seconds. Is what I'd say if they didn't then end up in the hospital",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists, as it should be.",
">\n\nCyclists shouldn’t be on sidewalks",
">\n\nI also cringe a lot when I see the international Reddit community constantly praise us Dutch people for our biking culture. People have no idea how many traffic accidents we get that could have been avoided if we didn’t have cyclists EVERYWHERE who are barely aware of the traffic rules that also apply to them.\nPeople have no idea about how cyclists are almost always right according to our traffic laws, which makes them much more reckless. They cause millions of dollars of damage to cars (and pedestrians) each year, and barely ever face consequences for their irresponsible and reckless behavior in traffic.\nPeople don’t see how cyclists often block traffic because they like to cycle next to each other in pairs, and if you honk they get angry and sometimes even aggressive and try to break your side mirror if they feel like it.\nMany intersections have bicycle lanes that you need to check when making a turn when driving, even though the intersection is already super busy with lots of cars. And guess what, cyclists still ride around fast and recklessly and making sure you don’t hit another car, cyclist AND pedestrian is all the job of one single driver.\nSo all in all, people from countries where driving is a relatively easy and chill thing to do, praise cycling culture in other countries. Try to drive here in busy traffic with thousands of cars AND (RECKLESS) CYCLISTS on the road and then tell me what it’s like.",
">\n\nIt would be much easier to sympathize with cars drivers if they did not need like 60% of the entire transit space leaving cyclists and pedestrians very little.\n\neven though the intersection is already super busy with lots of cars\n\nOfc, because cars are so large and need so much space.",
">\n\nI get that, but why is that my fault? I don’t do the city planning. Besides, cars are much larger than bicycles, so doesn’t it make sense there’s more space needed for cars than for bicycles?\nBut even then, if you don’t want to have any sympathy for motorists, because city planners give them more space than others, that’s just weird. It’s not the motorist’s fault.",
">\n\n\ndoesn’t it make sense there’s more space needed for cars than for bicycles?\n\nWhy a valuable and scarce resource such as the public space in cities should be used predominantly to benefit car users while barring everyone else? \nI just find it much harder to sympathize with the privileged group.",
">\n\nBecause people need to be able to go from A to B?",
">\n\nSo do pedestrians/public transport users/cyclists. But they don't require so much space per person.",
">\n\nWell in The Netherlands public transportation takes up an enormous amount of space and cyclists have their own dedicated lanes almost everywhere. Also motorists have to give public transportation space as we usually have to stop for trams and buses to pass, according to traffic rules. Guess who doesn’t often follow those rules: cyclists.\nHowever, public transportation itself is super busy and unbelievably expensive in The Netherlands. It costs more than 20 Euros to travel ~70 kilometers. That’s why a lot of people still prefer to have a car, and cars simply need infrastructure.\nSo I don’t really get your point. Cars, bicycles and public transportation all get a fair portion of the space that’s available.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist, i hate pedestrians. Here in Germany, there is bike lanes, one part for bikes and one for pedestrians on traffic lights... etc. But the pedestrians just ignore them, form \"walls\" of people blocking the bike lane, dont look while crossing the bike lane. Even cars repect us more than you.",
">\n\nThis I understand. Experienced the same in Denmark",
">\n\nClaaaaaarksoooooonnnnn",
">\n\nIdk about other places but here cyclists are constantly breaking the law and never getting ticketed for it. It makes no sense to me. I don’t think it’d make a huge difference but I do think some cyclists would think twice about disregarding the rules if those rules were actually enforced.",
">\n\nI get the sentiment. My feeling is the root cause is they don’t have their own infrastructure. Cars and peds do. So cyclists are always forced into a non ideal path. \nI’m aware they have rights to the road but cars and bikes really struggle to share an infrastructure clearly made for cars. \nSo if we invest in cycling infrastructure everyone would probably be happier.",
">\n\ndoubt it. In my city there is an asphalt bike path for miles that is like 8 feet wide. Smooth. No stop signs. Do they use it? nope they get their collective ass out on the street and I honestly don't have a clue why.\nIt defies logic. Safter, smooth, not cars/trunks, etc. Here they are out on the street just fiddle farting down a 45 mph road like they own it with a bike path 15 feet away with no one on it. The last guy I asked said \"It is my road as well you know\" that I ran up on while I was at a crossing while riding on the path myself. I just gave up trying to understand. Someone dies on that road every couple of months from bike or pedestrian strike with a vehicle. It was the whole reason they built the path....",
">\n\nWell in my experience there are 2 thing going on there.\na) Often bikers will avoid the path because peds often share or walk across those paths and their speed is closer to that of a car than a ped or \nb) If they are commuting...the path likely isn't going exactly where they need to.\nAs to your specific scenario I don't doubt there are bikers that are hard headed and stubborn. I know a few of those. But generally I do bikers using the infrastructure where we have built it.",
">\n\nThere's an accident here involving @ car running over a cyclist who crossed a red traffic light. And guess who take the blame?",
">\n\nLaughs in being dutch",
">\n\nIt is regrettable that a handful of asshole cyclists ruins everyone’s opinion of us. It really undermines the support needed to improve infrastructure for cycling. \nIf it is any help, when i ring my bell, I am doing so to avoid the alternatives of either yelling a warning or startling people. I normally exit the path and pass on the grass. I would say that most cyclist are the same. I don’t want you to get out of the way, I want you to know I am there. \nBut it only takes a couple assholes that think they own the path or the street. I have a cousin like this and it is difficult to convince him his is wrong and is putting himself and others in danger.",
">\n\nI think the a-holes are people that are only on a bike because it's the easiest thing for them, living where they do. You and those like you are on the bike because you love cycling.",
">\n\nI live in Portland, OR, and the cyclists here are so fucking rude and entitled.",
">\n\nI live in not-Portland OR and visited once. I biked down the road. Could not believe how nice everyone was to me. Probably because they could tell I’m an outsider.",
">\n\nI meant how they treat everyone else who isn't on a bike, tbh.",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists and it's for a simple reason. They think they can do whatever the hell they want. They switch between a pedestrian, a cyclist and a vehicle deciding on the fly whatever rules they feel like following with no accountability. \nOne minute they are skipping traffic, then they are deciding to cross at a crosswalk instead of following traffic. And the sidewalks are bike lanes if that's more convenient.",
">\n\nI just get annoyed because they will ride double wide on a tight street, forcing you to go 60mph in a 45, on the opposite side of traffic, risking a head on collision. And yea, you have to do that, because otherwise cars behind you will start driving aggressive as well as the fact that your expecting all the cars to go at a bikes speed on the road.",
">\n\nThat's because every country except for the Netherlands and Denmark have shit bicycle infrastructure.",
">\n\nI civilised countries we have cycling paths and cycling on the street is also possible as drivers aren't insane. So this seems rather like a problem of poor urban planning than cyclists in general.",
">\n\nWhere I live the cyclists just refuse to take the bikelane and either block the traffic because the rather use the street or they decide to use the pedestrian side of the sidewalk. The frickin bikelane is as big as the pedestrian one. There is no excuse not to use it and they still won't! One of them almost hit me if I hadn't dodge it. If the cyclist only drove a few inches to the left there would have been a bikelane and it wouldn't happened. Of course the person didn't apologize and just cursed at me.",
">\n\nBike gutters are awful and less safe than taking the lane. Assholes park in the bike lanes ALL THE TIME. Plus no one ever looks behind them when getting out pf their car so getting smacked by a door is a real danger. Drivers are entitled but it’s not their fault it’s the way we’ve built society to allow and expect them to be.\nETA: next time you’re driving around take a count how many people you see pulled over or parked in a bike gutter.",
">\n\nCompletely agree - I was ran over almost 3 times in Berlin. \nAnd every single time I checked before crossing - but they just suddenly spawned right in the way",
">\n\nDid you cross at a designated crosswalk? As a cyclist the amount of times people just randomly meander across an active street instead of going to the zebra/lollipop crossing, and then get angry at me when I have to swerve out the way/ brake is comical.",
">\n\nMan, y'all are sad people. \n\"Get off the road!\" Okay, now we are on the sidewalk. \n\"Get off the sidewalk!\" Back in the road again. \n\"They need to ring their bells so we know they're coming! Btw I hate it when they ring their bells so I know they're coming.\"",
">\n\nI hate cyclists like that. I don’t have a car so my bike is my main source of transportation and I don’t ride like that. So far, from what I’ve noticed in my area, I’m the only one that follows the damn rules in my city xD",
">\n\nNo matter where you are and who you are… driver or walker, scooter or flyer… we ALL hate cyclists.",
">\n\nI feel ya. The only thing I hate more than cyclists is electric scooters.",
">\n\nCompletely agree! A cycling license (similar to driving) should be required. Far too many cyclist who doesn’t know (and those who don’t just give a F) about traffic rules.",
">\n\nI completely agree! Cyclists have a lot of rights on the roads, and are very vocal about them, but think they can do whatever the fuck they want at roundabouts and pedestrian crossings.",
">\n\nIt just fascinates me how anyone can walk or drive through a city and genuinely think that bicycles are the problem. Look around you at every turn there are cars jamming the roads. Parked blocking things. Blocking pavements. Driving aggressively. Speeding. Failing to stop. Polluting the air. If they hit you, you are seriously injured or dead. This happens in the thousands. The city absolutely revolves around them.",
">\n\nYou are 100% right. Except I didn't say bicycles are the problem. I said i hate them. I said fuck cars too. I also said bicycles are one of the best alternative for trafic jam in cities.\nCities in Europe weren't made for cars nor bikes. So the problem is the fucking lazy greedy people who decide how to spend our tax money. The problem is people thinking they are all alone on the street. The problem is how stressed everybody is and how it become dangerous.\nNot because I hate how cyclists take revenge from drivers bullies to pedestrians makes me hate a transportation model itself.",
">\n\nIt just seems odd that people can really harp on about cyclists when they are such a trivial issue. Posts like this can get hundreds of replies. People tend to make excuses about cars.",
">\n\nYou just insulted a whole country.",
">\n\nThe Netherlands? It's ok",
">\n\nOk",
">\n\nI judge the actions of the individual not the mode of transport. I find it produces more accurate results.",
">\n\nApparently \"individuals alone are responsible for their own actions\" is the real unpopular opinion here.",
">\n\nIndeed 😀",
">\n\nAs a car driver I also hate cyclists. Saw one on a 45mph the other day despite there being a sidewalk AND a bikelane",
">\n\n45 mph isn't a speed for bike lane or sidewalk. Street is",
">\n\nas a cyclist, I hate pedestrians.\nMy city put in these nice protected bicycle lanes so bikes don't have to ride inches from cars, and boy don't those pedestrians just LOVE using the bike lane as a queuing up spot for the crosswalks. it's just so nice and convenient to get 5 more feet closer to your goal, isn't it? Those bicycles can stop and wait...and feel free to swear at them like THEY are the ones in the wrong.\nBicycles and pedestrians are natural enemies, that's never going to change. There can be only one.",
">\n\nLET'S END THIS NOW !!!!!",
">\n\nanyplace but Holy Ground.",
">\n\ndon't blame all bicyclists for the shitty ones.\nthat would be like saying every person who drives a car is an asshole. or every person who walks on the sidewalk is an asshole.\nsome people are good at getting around. other people are jerks. don't blame everyone for the actions of a small subset of people.",
">\n\nI mean, isn’t that the sentiment over that the popular sub r/fuckcars? The generalization is already being perpetuated from cyclists and “urbanists” in their war against cars.",
">\n\nNot really. That sub mostly hates the focus on cars when designing infrastructure, as well as the forced dependency on cars in our modern world. Not individual drivers.",
">\n\nSure about that? It’s mostly just a bitch-fest about driver errors to further their political agenda.",
">\n\nYea, I'm pretty sure.",
">\n\nReally weird way to get there if that’s the case. Alienating a large portion of the population (car drivers, car riders, people that depend on vehicles for the delivery of goods and services) is not how you get them on your side.",
">\n\nI don't think that's their goal in the first place. It's just a reddit sub.",
">\n\nEspecially when they have a stupid fucking bell and say \"on the left\" then proceed to be on the right side of the trail running into you",
">\n\nHahahha \"is he coming on the left or should i go on the lef...\" BANG!!",
">\n\nGF lives in a college town. It’s as if there’s some kinda fuckin’ death wish among the student cycling population",
">\n\nAs a [insert anyone, including cyclist], I hate cyclists.",
">\n\nPeople don't wanna hear it when it comes from automobilists because \"gngn cars are more dangerous and drivers are entitled\" but reality is cyclists are just the worst. Whether I'm on foot, driving a car, or riding a bicycle myself, cyclists are always always the ones being absolute public hazards. Heck, when I'm on my bike and stop at the stop sign on a cycle lane to let the cars go, they look at me as if I'm jesus or something. They even try to let me pass first because of how used they are to cyclists who just can't be bothered to respect the damn stop sign.",
">\n\nThe problem isn't the cyclists here, it's the lacking infrastructure.",
">\n\nWe shouldn't have to build infrastructure so people can partake in recreation. I find that comment extremely arrogant. Why on earth do cyclists deserve to have their recreation glorified and catered to??",
">\n\nRecreation? Ah yes, cycling is only for recreation.",
">\n\nWell, where I live that I'd the ONLY purpose. I'm 17 miles from any city municipality. Nobody is biking here to go to the grocery store or work.",
">\n\nNot everything is about you personally.",
">\n\nTo me, it is, and should be. My concern is around how cyclists inconvenience me while I'm trying to be a productive member of society. I feel like that's a fair critique.",
">\n\nYou are mad that cyclists inconvenience you yet you reject dedicated infrastructure as a solution. Do you think cyclists should be banned off the road completely?",
">\n\nThe real issue here is lacking cycling infrastructure.",
">\n\nDefinitely a major issue.\nBut part of the issue is definitely cyclists who prioritize their own speed over the safety and welfare of everyone around them. It's like they are all BMW drivers, deep down, and just don't want to yield to or slow down for anyone.",
">\n\nI'm sure there are, assholes exist in all vehicle types.",
">\n\nCyclists know thar neither the pavement nor the road are theirs because motorists and pedestrians like you are both screaming at them all the time. And I swear you'd be angrier if they didn't give a polite warning that they're coming toward you. \nCyclists who breeze through crossings instead of stopping are a minority, much like cyclists are a minority in general, and you can't judge an entire group that aren't adequately represented",
">\n\nFuck traveling in general",
">\n\nYa. Where are our transporters! \nSorry had to go full nerd.",
">\n\nI see posts like this constantly. It blows my mind people can just choose one thing that is so insignificant to scapegoat. \nThey assume people on bikes don’t also walk, drive, etc like we are essentially subhuman for doing exercise / running errands in this way because they are inconvenienced for a few seconds. You realize we are human like you , right?\nPeople tell us to ride bicycles on the sidewalk when it’s illegal while others say not too. It’s usually against the law.\nThey tell us to ride closer to the right side of the road , so we get hit by a car door and yelled at again. \nThey’re mad that we give a verbal signal that we’re coming up on the left even though that’s the law. \nNow that I’m in Colorado I’m getting yelled at for the Idaho stop, which is completely legal. We yield to stop signs and temporarily stop at red lights only if it’s clear. It’s all to REDUCE CAR TRAFFIC. \nKeep in mind we are riding bicycles which in its own right REDUCES CAR TRAFFIC. \n80% of car trips are within 3 miles from your house. Everyone that rides a bike keeps you from being stuck behind them in traffic for longer then the 20 seconds you’re currently inconvenienced. It’s also mean parking closer to the front door of a shop. \nSo far I’ve had family members die from hit and runs and drunk drivers, but somehow cyclists are the most dangerous thing on the road today?! It’s not adding up.\nWhat is this really about?",
">\n\nI'm sorry for your losses. I never said bikers are the most dangerous things on the road. Saying this would be stupid. The problem in my city is the lack of respect from cyclists to pedestrians in a general way. I'm not even talking about drivers against EVERYTHING ON THE STREET.",
">\n\nI go out of my way to be respectful to everybody, and I’ve had nothing but kindness and respect from other cyclists .\nYou wanna blame everybody on a bicycle for all your problems when it’s really just about a few people who disrespected you. \nCyclists are drivers, walkers, etc. do they just jump on a bicycle and instantly become disrespectful?\nStill doesn’t make any logical sense.",
">\n\nDude you just don't get it.. i understand biking is your life.. but come on.\nI use to bike 40km per day to work. \nI don't have problems with people jumping on bikes. I simply hate the ones that are disrespectful.\nIs it too hard to understand? Just me venting coz I feel like a lot of bikers think they are on top of the citizen pyramid? \nI'm not venting about the system here, nor about cars.. just about some (yes some) bikers.\nAnd please there is no need to beg for upvotes on fuckcars how old are you?",
">\n\nI bet your fat.",
">\n\nOf course I fart !",
">\n\nTo you yours and to mine mine; I hate car users and their ilk who are filled with wonton waste and hate for all else who dare travel near them. I stop at all lights, halt for all signs, use a mirror, lights, and hand signals, pull over for cars coming my way so long as there is any room, and use what little biking infrastructure is available to me.\nMy taxes are waste and paid in folly for they assuredly go in portion to your reckless use of a powerful machine and not to my own reckless use of a small self-propelled stick on two wheels to separate lanes and keep them maintained. No, no, I must settle for the gutter and cry glee for that and be ashamed to move to the sidewalk when it suddenly ends and continues a block later down the road. \nFuck your car, your roads, and your selfish desire to pave the world and create cities with 60% of their coverage dedicated to driving a car, parking a car, and separating the world into places for cars and otherwise. You who drive faster and faster, in bigger and bigger cars. I loath you as you loath mine.",
">\n\nI wouldn’t hate cyclists if they didn’t act like road laws don’t apply to em in the city where I live. I’ve seen cyclists not even stop at red lights even with an almost full intersection, and ride the wrong way down one ways.\nEdit: I do wish the city where I live had more bike lanes but yeah.",
">\n\nIf you're going to hate someone, maybe hate the people actually doing those things.\nIf I see someone on a bike rush through a short break on a red light in an otherwise busy intersection, I shake my head and think they are an idiot. I think this while waiting for the light to turn green on my bike.\nSimilarly, when a car illegally stops in a bike lane (which happens ALL THE TIME by the way), I don't turn around and blame the cars moving along legally in the adjacent lane.",
">\n\nPedestrian are the worst.\nWhen i started using bicicle I was very polite: brake, ring, ask for permission. And what the large amount of people do? Ignore u, watch u in the eyes and take a step in the fucking middle of the trail (many many times! for real!), shout at you just because u exist. So.... At some point is fuck you all, I'm coming go out of the way. That's it",
">\n\n\nI will never drive nor park on a bike lane, always look into the mirror to be careful of one of you monkeys. So why can't you be careful when us peasants are walking?\n\nThis is dumb. Obviously there are plenty of cyclists who are careful and courteous about your safety. That's part of what a bell or \"watch out!\" (generally \"On your left\") is doing for you. And just because you are courteous to them doesn't mean everyone is. Is every driver a douchebag just because some of them crowd cyclists when and where the cyclist has the right to the road? No.",
">\n\nThe difference here is that generally car drivers are going to be held accountable for bad driving. This is in the form of dash cams, ANPR and red light cameras which catch drivers doing bad things and they can receive a fine or points on their licence. Cyclists currently can't be held accountable if they jump red lights or hit a car or pedestrian as there isn't anything that helps identify them. This is a big issue in cities. I live and work in London and see many cyclists jumping red lights and weaving around pedestrians crossing. Cars can't do this as most traffic lights have red light cameras that would catch this.\nDrivers as a collective (including me) are in no way perfect or even held to account 100% of the time, but I believe we need a system for cyclists to be held accountable too",
">\n\nYour way of thinking, while perfectly rational and natural, is outdated. Traffic law enforcement, like any other law enforcement, is less about the enforcement, and more about the prevention. Where I live, speed and red light cameras are clearly marked ahead so that the people who'd normally break the law follow it instead, making punishment unnecessary. \nSame could be done with cyclists. Sure, you could make every cyclist install a license plate, require a \"cycling license\", or install expensive cameras with facial identification software, but how about just make it so cyclists aren't incentivised to break the law in the first place? \nMake more useful cycling infrastructure, and more cyclists will use it. Make that infrastructure intersect with foot and motor traffic more safely and less often, and less collisions will happen.",
">\n\nI completely understand your point. However, a lot of money has gone into my local area for cycling infrastructure that most cyclists are using, but many are still choosing to break the rules as the rules are inconvenient. The infrastructure is not enough, there needs to be an incentive NOT to break the rules.\nIf you take a look at Chiswick High Road in London, England. They have created segregated cycle lanes from the traffic. These cycle lanes have their own lights and crossings to keep them safe from cars. However many cyclists just ignore the lights and just keep going into pedestrians. There is no punishment for them doing this as they can't be tracked. Personally I think every cyclist should have to register their bike (make it free to help encourage this) and then a new form of ANPR used to also catch cyclists in the act",
">\n\nPersonally I'd have no problem registering my bike for free, especially if I could use that same registration if it gets stolen, but registering something as mechanically simple and cheap as a bicycle is, in my opinion difficult if not impossible to do without making the bike mechanically complex and expensive, at which point most people would just switch to scooters.\nI don't live in London, but from what I've heard, by far the biggest threat in the city is still motorized traffic, namely cars and lorries, and so until that problem is no longer a problem, I wouldn't really do anything special about bikes. Maybe put some undercover bike cops near the most dangerous bike path/lane intersections to catch a few offenders and make an example out of them, but that's about it.",
">\n\nMost cars I’ve driven came equipped with brakes and a steering wheel. I don’t see the problem",
">\n\nA common take and a stupid one.\nThere are good and bad drivers, pedestrians, and cyclists. Hating any of them as a group because some of them do bad things is just dumb.",
">\n\nIf you followed the laws and stayed out of the bike lane as a pedestrian there would be no problem.",
">\n\nIf bicyclists followed the laws and stopped ignoring street signs/traffic lights there would be no problem.",
">\n\nDon’t see how this address the problem with pedestrians in bike lanes.",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Drivers pedestrians other cyclists. They're a scourge.",
">\n\nEvery word of this is pure wisdom.",
">\n\nAs a car driver, I too hate cyclists.\nI don't care who has 'right of way'. I'm in a car, you're not. If we collide, regardless of fault, you're the one that dies.\nDo you really want to die on the hill that says \"i can bike on the rode b/c it's legal\"?\nI might be in jail, but you're still dead.\nBikes don't belong on public roads. Unless there's a bike lane - aka, a pathway designed specifically for bikers.\nIt's FAR SAFER to bike on the sidewalk.",
">\n\nBe careful you’ll anger r/fuckcars",
">\n\nI recently got a bike in Japan and there isn't any room on the street to ride my bike. Most people are fine when I'm on the sidewalk, however, the worst ones are groups of 2 or more who try and take up as much space as possible allowing nobody to pass. Same with the people who constantly switch between the left and right side of the sidewalk. It's really annoying to see how little spacial awareness they have.",
">\n\nCyclists on the road don’t have to pass the same test as vehicles on the road, which is why they are so bad. If there was a test in order to cycle on the road then i think it would be alot better",
">\n\nWhy do you hate all cyclists when only some of them are rude/dangerous?",
">\n\nCope hehe",
">\n\nIt's the powered vehicles that kill most pedestrians.\nBut, sure, cyclists blahblah...",
">\n\nAs an occasional cyclist, I don't like you either.",
">\n\nI biked everywhere.....when I was a child. I'm an adult now and have an automobile. They are pretty neat.",
">\n\nWhen I used to have to walk to work I’d walk on the sidewalk and listen to music and one time this guy zipped right by me yelling almost knocking me over and flipped me off?? They act like they don’t have breaks lmao",
">\n\nholy smokes! glad you're ok"
] |
>
And here i thought why the f pediatrician hate cyclists
|
[
"I road cycled for years, I always followed the street rules. Always. Red light means red light. \nI have so many cycling friends who get into accidents and other conflicts with drivers, and yet they think it’s stupid to stop at a red light. They just don’t connect these two things",
">\n\nMost bikers I encounter are complete idiots. Like I'd be driving normally and out of nowhere comes a biker on a crosswalk in full speed. Now, I appreciate bikers who actually stop and make eye contact with me as I'm driving towards the crosswalk but man, it's either that or the biker almost dies because I have no time to brake.\nAnd what's up with all the bikers going like 5 kmh IN THE MIDDLE of a road when there's a dedicated sidewalk for bikers right next to them? Drives me insane.",
">\n\nIt seems like most bikers because of observation bias.\nIf you follow the rules as you should, you’re unmemorable.\nAs for the sidewalks - its actually less safe on the sidewalk.",
">\n\nInteresting. Dangerous situations are more valuable to remember, and I remember tons of irresponsible bikers. It is in fact observation bias. But I'm always happy to see those who pay close attention to traffic, and I do remeber some of them aswell.",
">\n\nWell the same goes for driving. How many cars do you remember when they haven’t done anything? But you tend to remember the ones who do something dumb",
">\n\nYeah it can be applied to anything really.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist in one of the most bike-dense cities in the world, I hate cyclists too. If I could avoid getting myself hurt, I’d be ramming at least ten of them a day just to teach a lesson about ignoring rules and common sense.",
">\n\nAmsterdam? Copenhagen?",
">\n\nCopenhagen. It’s a wonderful bike city but the people are incredibly self-centered.",
">\n\nI had high expectations from cyclists when I first visited the city, after all it is heralded as a cycling paradise and, well, let’s say it looked a lot more like the rest of the world and mainly because of the personal behavior of cyclists.\nMy local friend justified it, stating that it’s because danish are more temperamental than all other Scandinavians: an explanation that I really didn’t know what to do with…",
">\n\nIf “temperamental” means “a bunch of egotistical [insert unflattering body part]”, he’s right.",
">\n\nYou make it sound like a war zone. I live in Copenhagen and most of the time biking around the city is very pleasant. Except for the food delivery scooters, they can 🤬 off.",
">\n\nI guess it depends on how often and where you’re going. If you have places to be each and every day and want to get there effectively, people ignoring general rules and courtesies of the road are a pain. If you’re one of the types listening to podcasts with a latte in one hand and a phone in the other just trudging along, it’s probably fine.",
">\n\nSame! I love walking. Where I live on popular trails, there are bike lanes, but the cyclists will just ride wherever they. They don’t care and won’t let you know they’re coming. They’ll get pissy if you don’t just automatically know they’re coming up from behind you. If you do much as step foot in the bike lane, they get mad, but have no problems riding side by side outside the bike lane.",
">\n\nSame here! So much for my pleasant walk on the beautiful Trail. They sneak up and when they're almost on top of me, a loud voice yells \"On your left!\" They startle the shit out of me and cause me to jump sky high! 😡",
">\n\nIt’s literally the law to say that. This thread is all about hating them no matter if they follow the law or not.",
">\n\nIs it possible to do that without sneaking up on them and startling the shit out of them by yelling real loud? And then cutting is close to them as you possibly can without hitting them?",
">\n\nHello. \nMy useless comment to this post is here :D\nSo, i work in the accidents department of a big insurance company. My country is very strickt about the road rules, meaning:\nOur company estimates (is this the right word?) that around 82% of accidents involving cyclists, are to blame on the cyclist. Since there are expecific places on the road for you to ride your bike, even if it's not a bike lane.\nI remember a case where 3 dudes were just cycling, outside of town and they were literally on the middle of the road. the place where they were is full of curves and has very little visibility, so they were riding side by side, middle of the road, comes a car, hits not one, but the 3 of them because they scared the person and she just swerved the car.\nThey sued her and us (insurance) 2 times. Lost both and had to pay for all damage done on the car by their own bodys",
">\n\nThis sounds like something that happened near by my home town, are you in Ontario?",
">\n\nno XD portugal",
">\n\nGod its so much worse that it's happened in multiple places.\nIn ours I think the driver killed one of the cyclists, then sued the family for emotional damage",
">\n\nMy biggest gripe about cyclists is that there is always some danger when you encounter them on the road, either as a pedestrian or motorist. Now, part of it isn’t their fault. At least here in the US, not much of the infrastructure is made for bicycles. But cyclists are constantly breaking the rules of the road (or sidewalk) to get where they’re going faster. Blowing red lights, leaving the bike lane to use the sidewalk, splitting lanes. I always clench a little when I approach one, wondering if this is the day I can’t get out of the way.",
">\n\nWe have that same problem, but then a million times worse, because I live in The Netherlands. You probably know about our proud cycling culture (the Amsterdam stereotype). And yes, cyclists here are just as bad as the ones you describe, but there’s a lot more of them here. And oh yeah, traffic laws are almost always in their favor.",
">\n\nI found driving in the towns of the Netherlands so hard. Not just because I was on the wrong side of the road 😉 but because I just wasn’t used to sooo many cyclists coming from all directions, always faster than me and passing on both sides. Even as I was signalling to leave a roundabout at one point about three cyclists rode past on the inside. I really struggled to keep up with them all, which of course means I drove slower and thus even more bikes passed me!",
">\n\nYes that is of course very difficult, however as a Dutchman I’m used to cyclists, so of course we struggle a lot less. But that doesn’t take away from the fact that cyclists do cause a lot of issues because of their careless behavior, and because as drivers we have to accommodate them. That one sided ‘deal’ that we have makes it very difficult to deal with them.\nAll in all I’m happy we have so many cyclists as it’s good for the environment. But the utopian mindset of cyclists being a gift to the world is just stupid. Especially when you consider that mostly Americans who drive on wide open roads with barely any cyclists around are the ones praising cyclists in my country all the time. Also, cyclists annoy the hell out of pedestrians as well, so it’s not just about motorists.",
">\n\nCyclists treat red lights like stop signs and stop signs like yield signs (at best). They’re not allowed on sidewalks but do it anyway. Fuckin hate cyclists.",
">\n\nEverything you said is completely legal in Denver and sidewalks are illegal , but drivers constantly scream at cyclists to ride there",
">\n\nCyclist can roll stop signs and run red lights in Denver? What the fuck?",
">\n\nI’d have no problem if cyclist had respect for other road users. where I live there are cycle lanes, but most cyclists are on the road or pavements, they ignore red lights etc. \nIf you want to cycle please make it’s safe for yourself and others around you.",
">\n\nExactly my thoughts",
">\n\nHonestly, selfish assholes exist everywhere but a selfish asshole on a bicycle does a lot less damage than a selfish asshole in a car. \nEDIT: OP's also downvoting everyone who disagrees with him, just fyi.",
">\n\nAs a pedestrian, I hate everyone who's not a pedestrian... And some pedestrians too.",
">\n\nThere's a reason so many cyclists die each year, they all seem to pick and choose which laws they want to follow. Its always safer to assume they'll do whatever they want and everyone else needs to adapt to them.",
">\n\nAs a driver downtown, I don't worry at all about pedestrians at intersections, I can turn my head and assume they will be maybe five feet closer to my car when I look back, (and I trust they won't sprint towards me when I look away, at their own peril), but bikes, they ride so fast, that in the short time I turn my head to check for oncoming traffic, a bike could materialize right beside / infront me, and I risk hitting them or them hitting the side of my car. And that's even in their designated bike lane, that I have to pass through to clear the intersection. And if I drive into a ped at three miles per hour, they will just hit my hood with their fist and call me a stupid motherfucker, or whatever makes them feel justice was served, but if I bump the bike, it will be a big crash, the bicyclist will be all curled up in a ball on the ground, I'll be the bad guy in the eyes of the law and anyone nearby, and I'll probably be late as fuck to wherever it is I'm trying to go to.",
">\n\nI skateboard so I guess I'm good",
">\n\nJust don’t inconvenience narcissistic car drivers by a few seconds.",
">\n\nI think everyone hates cyclists. Cyclists included.",
">\n\nAs a driver, I hate you both",
">\n\nPedestrians are literally the worst. Anyone who has to walk more than 20 feet a day and not to their car are complete losers, and should be jailed on site.",
">\n\nOK, I think that's a bit extreme. But hey, if you're running for public office I'll vote for you. \nI do have to wonder anytime I see someone that I know has the mental faculties to drive who is walking. Usually assume too many DUI's.",
">\n\nr/fuckcars ripping out their hair rn",
">\n\nNot unpopular.\n Everyone hates cyclists.",
">\n\nI casually cycle in the summer. If I'm on a trail, I'll slow down and ring my bell if I see pedestrians, or stop and dismount if there's a lot of people or they don't notice me. Especially on the narrow trails in this woodlot I sometimes go to. \nThe problem is a lot of cyclists, especially in North America, but perhaps other places, just aren't respectful of others. They demand car drivers \"share the road\", but then ride in huge packs, lane split, don't signal turns, run stop signs and red lights, weave in and out of traffic, boot up busy sidewalks at 15-20mph, refuse to use provided bike lanes, etc. There's like a gross sense of entitlement in the cycling community. Dude, you're still a vehicle. There's rules that apply to you, just like there are for cars and motorcycles. Big problem is difficulty/lack of enforcement. Cops have to catch them in the act. Even then they're slippery devils since they're usually more mobile than a cruiser or beat cop on foot. This is why I support plating bikes to make them easily identifiable.",
">\n\n\nThere's like a gross sense of entitlement in the cycling community. Dude, you're still a vehicle. There's rules that apply to you, just like there are for cars and motorcycles.\n\nThat is the problem right there. They want to be treated equal to car owners, yet they do not abide by traffic rules, hence all the accidents.",
">\n\nAs a driver, I concur.",
">\n\nI hate bikers on trails. They're supposed to stop and let hikers by but they never do. They go by so freakin' fast too. It's like come on now!",
">\n\nAs a mostly former cyclist, I often hated cyclists too. Mostly, because so many cyclist are just competitive asshats that suck the pleasure out of their own bike ride by making everything about speed. Like, heaven forbid they have to slow and yield to anyone.\nOnce, I was riding my bicycle with my young daughter on a bike path in the city. A couple cyclist came up and got all pissy at us, saying we need to be out of the cycle lane because we were going too slow and my 8 year old kid wasn't keeping to a narrow lane. It was so hostile - my kid started crying.\nBut that is just so typical, all the time. I've gotten yelled out a few times when I made a full, foot down stop at a redlight because the cyclist behind me was expecting me to either run the redlight or at least go into the crosswalk and dance around (like they do) until it went green. I remember nearly getting run over by cyclists all the time, and yelled at if I was going too slow.\nThat being said, we need to do 100,000 x more in the US towards making bike paths, protected bike lanes, etc., because cyling is a truly great way to get around and I miss it. I just don't miss the self-centered asshats that dominate the cycling community.",
">\n\nThis!",
">\n\nI’ve nothing against cyclists as a group. I prefer to hate all people who do stupid things whether they’re in cars, on bikes or walking. Went to pick my daughter up tonight and counted six cyclists in the dark wearing all black with no lights at all plus one with a light so weak I didn’t see it until I was nearly past him. Tonight it was dumb cyclists, but tomorrow it might be idiots in cars. Hate the idiots not the method of transportation.",
">\n\nTrue !",
">\n\nOMG YES !! I completely agree. Every time i tried to explain this to a friend, they would always look at me like I am crazy for thinking such a thing. But as I walk for 45 minutes every days, it became a reality you can't ignore... I can't count how many times I nearly got hit by a cyclist, it happens every other week. I am starting to think that cyclists should have to go through a \"course\" to learn the basics of using the streets x)\n(Sorry for mistakes, not native here 'x) )",
">\n\nThis is my story lol..",
">\n\nYes, and it also is my personal experience, which is why I posted this..?",
">\n\nYes I totally agree. Just saying \"that's my life\" :) happening in Brussels tho",
">\n\nMy bad x) welp France here, it amazes me in a really bad way how this seems to be such a common phenomenon literaly EVERYWHERE",
">\n\nJ'ai roulé en vélo à Paris et laisse tomber l'enfer que c'était. J'avais l'impression d'avancer avec des oies qui insultaient tout le monde. BAa bAAA BAaaAa !!! \nLe problème c'est que plus les gens sont stressés (même les piétons... Genre dans le metro) plus ils se haïssent et ce matin j'avais la haine sur les vélos.. en vrai j'ai la haine sur tous les citadins haha",
">\n\nas a cyclist I hate everyone",
">\n\nSame, I see posts like this where people tell us to ride on the sidewalk when it’s illegal. \nThey assume we don’t walk anywhere, drive, etc like we are essentially subhuman for doing exercise.\nThey tell us to ride closer to the right side of the road so we get hit by a car door. \nThey’re mad that we give a verbal signal that we’re coming up on the left even though that’s the law. \nnow that I’m in Colorado I’m getting yelled at for the Idaho stop, which is completely legal. We yield to stop signs and temporarily stop at red light only till it’s clear. It’s all to REDUCE CAR TRAFFIC.\nSo far I’ve had family members die from hit and runs and drunk drivers, but somehow cyclists are the most dangerous thing on the road today.\nWhat is this really about?",
">\n\nI loathe cyclists. Selfish, entitled lycra lunatics.",
">\n\nBe honest, do you realize that it's possible to ride a bicycle and not be selfish, or entitled, or a lunatic, or not wear lycra?",
">\n\nThis thread is such a circlejerk, it's ridiculous.",
">\n\nThat's what I'm here for",
">\n\nIt's because cycling isn't regulated like motor vehicles are but they still get on the roads unlike pedestrians. So they don't have knowledge on the rules of the road that drivers have.\nThere's also some sort of hypocrisy they have where they believe drivers should give way to them because bikes are more vulnerable than cars while expecting pedestrians to give way to them because they're moving faster.",
">\n\n\nSo they don't have knowledge on the rules of the road\n\nPlenty do. Many cyclists also are automobilists. They just feel like they're exempted from respecting trafic rules because it's tiring to stop and go on a bike and they're slower an lighter than cars.",
">\n\nSure you got hit by a truck, but at least you managed to save yourself a little time and avoid waiting for a few seconds. Is what I'd say if they didn't then end up in the hospital",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists, as it should be.",
">\n\nCyclists shouldn’t be on sidewalks",
">\n\nI also cringe a lot when I see the international Reddit community constantly praise us Dutch people for our biking culture. People have no idea how many traffic accidents we get that could have been avoided if we didn’t have cyclists EVERYWHERE who are barely aware of the traffic rules that also apply to them.\nPeople have no idea about how cyclists are almost always right according to our traffic laws, which makes them much more reckless. They cause millions of dollars of damage to cars (and pedestrians) each year, and barely ever face consequences for their irresponsible and reckless behavior in traffic.\nPeople don’t see how cyclists often block traffic because they like to cycle next to each other in pairs, and if you honk they get angry and sometimes even aggressive and try to break your side mirror if they feel like it.\nMany intersections have bicycle lanes that you need to check when making a turn when driving, even though the intersection is already super busy with lots of cars. And guess what, cyclists still ride around fast and recklessly and making sure you don’t hit another car, cyclist AND pedestrian is all the job of one single driver.\nSo all in all, people from countries where driving is a relatively easy and chill thing to do, praise cycling culture in other countries. Try to drive here in busy traffic with thousands of cars AND (RECKLESS) CYCLISTS on the road and then tell me what it’s like.",
">\n\nIt would be much easier to sympathize with cars drivers if they did not need like 60% of the entire transit space leaving cyclists and pedestrians very little.\n\neven though the intersection is already super busy with lots of cars\n\nOfc, because cars are so large and need so much space.",
">\n\nI get that, but why is that my fault? I don’t do the city planning. Besides, cars are much larger than bicycles, so doesn’t it make sense there’s more space needed for cars than for bicycles?\nBut even then, if you don’t want to have any sympathy for motorists, because city planners give them more space than others, that’s just weird. It’s not the motorist’s fault.",
">\n\n\ndoesn’t it make sense there’s more space needed for cars than for bicycles?\n\nWhy a valuable and scarce resource such as the public space in cities should be used predominantly to benefit car users while barring everyone else? \nI just find it much harder to sympathize with the privileged group.",
">\n\nBecause people need to be able to go from A to B?",
">\n\nSo do pedestrians/public transport users/cyclists. But they don't require so much space per person.",
">\n\nWell in The Netherlands public transportation takes up an enormous amount of space and cyclists have their own dedicated lanes almost everywhere. Also motorists have to give public transportation space as we usually have to stop for trams and buses to pass, according to traffic rules. Guess who doesn’t often follow those rules: cyclists.\nHowever, public transportation itself is super busy and unbelievably expensive in The Netherlands. It costs more than 20 Euros to travel ~70 kilometers. That’s why a lot of people still prefer to have a car, and cars simply need infrastructure.\nSo I don’t really get your point. Cars, bicycles and public transportation all get a fair portion of the space that’s available.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist, i hate pedestrians. Here in Germany, there is bike lanes, one part for bikes and one for pedestrians on traffic lights... etc. But the pedestrians just ignore them, form \"walls\" of people blocking the bike lane, dont look while crossing the bike lane. Even cars repect us more than you.",
">\n\nThis I understand. Experienced the same in Denmark",
">\n\nClaaaaaarksoooooonnnnn",
">\n\nIdk about other places but here cyclists are constantly breaking the law and never getting ticketed for it. It makes no sense to me. I don’t think it’d make a huge difference but I do think some cyclists would think twice about disregarding the rules if those rules were actually enforced.",
">\n\nI get the sentiment. My feeling is the root cause is they don’t have their own infrastructure. Cars and peds do. So cyclists are always forced into a non ideal path. \nI’m aware they have rights to the road but cars and bikes really struggle to share an infrastructure clearly made for cars. \nSo if we invest in cycling infrastructure everyone would probably be happier.",
">\n\ndoubt it. In my city there is an asphalt bike path for miles that is like 8 feet wide. Smooth. No stop signs. Do they use it? nope they get their collective ass out on the street and I honestly don't have a clue why.\nIt defies logic. Safter, smooth, not cars/trunks, etc. Here they are out on the street just fiddle farting down a 45 mph road like they own it with a bike path 15 feet away with no one on it. The last guy I asked said \"It is my road as well you know\" that I ran up on while I was at a crossing while riding on the path myself. I just gave up trying to understand. Someone dies on that road every couple of months from bike or pedestrian strike with a vehicle. It was the whole reason they built the path....",
">\n\nWell in my experience there are 2 thing going on there.\na) Often bikers will avoid the path because peds often share or walk across those paths and their speed is closer to that of a car than a ped or \nb) If they are commuting...the path likely isn't going exactly where they need to.\nAs to your specific scenario I don't doubt there are bikers that are hard headed and stubborn. I know a few of those. But generally I do bikers using the infrastructure where we have built it.",
">\n\nThere's an accident here involving @ car running over a cyclist who crossed a red traffic light. And guess who take the blame?",
">\n\nLaughs in being dutch",
">\n\nIt is regrettable that a handful of asshole cyclists ruins everyone’s opinion of us. It really undermines the support needed to improve infrastructure for cycling. \nIf it is any help, when i ring my bell, I am doing so to avoid the alternatives of either yelling a warning or startling people. I normally exit the path and pass on the grass. I would say that most cyclist are the same. I don’t want you to get out of the way, I want you to know I am there. \nBut it only takes a couple assholes that think they own the path or the street. I have a cousin like this and it is difficult to convince him his is wrong and is putting himself and others in danger.",
">\n\nI think the a-holes are people that are only on a bike because it's the easiest thing for them, living where they do. You and those like you are on the bike because you love cycling.",
">\n\nI live in Portland, OR, and the cyclists here are so fucking rude and entitled.",
">\n\nI live in not-Portland OR and visited once. I biked down the road. Could not believe how nice everyone was to me. Probably because they could tell I’m an outsider.",
">\n\nI meant how they treat everyone else who isn't on a bike, tbh.",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists and it's for a simple reason. They think they can do whatever the hell they want. They switch between a pedestrian, a cyclist and a vehicle deciding on the fly whatever rules they feel like following with no accountability. \nOne minute they are skipping traffic, then they are deciding to cross at a crosswalk instead of following traffic. And the sidewalks are bike lanes if that's more convenient.",
">\n\nI just get annoyed because they will ride double wide on a tight street, forcing you to go 60mph in a 45, on the opposite side of traffic, risking a head on collision. And yea, you have to do that, because otherwise cars behind you will start driving aggressive as well as the fact that your expecting all the cars to go at a bikes speed on the road.",
">\n\nThat's because every country except for the Netherlands and Denmark have shit bicycle infrastructure.",
">\n\nI civilised countries we have cycling paths and cycling on the street is also possible as drivers aren't insane. So this seems rather like a problem of poor urban planning than cyclists in general.",
">\n\nWhere I live the cyclists just refuse to take the bikelane and either block the traffic because the rather use the street or they decide to use the pedestrian side of the sidewalk. The frickin bikelane is as big as the pedestrian one. There is no excuse not to use it and they still won't! One of them almost hit me if I hadn't dodge it. If the cyclist only drove a few inches to the left there would have been a bikelane and it wouldn't happened. Of course the person didn't apologize and just cursed at me.",
">\n\nBike gutters are awful and less safe than taking the lane. Assholes park in the bike lanes ALL THE TIME. Plus no one ever looks behind them when getting out pf their car so getting smacked by a door is a real danger. Drivers are entitled but it’s not their fault it’s the way we’ve built society to allow and expect them to be.\nETA: next time you’re driving around take a count how many people you see pulled over or parked in a bike gutter.",
">\n\nCompletely agree - I was ran over almost 3 times in Berlin. \nAnd every single time I checked before crossing - but they just suddenly spawned right in the way",
">\n\nDid you cross at a designated crosswalk? As a cyclist the amount of times people just randomly meander across an active street instead of going to the zebra/lollipop crossing, and then get angry at me when I have to swerve out the way/ brake is comical.",
">\n\nMan, y'all are sad people. \n\"Get off the road!\" Okay, now we are on the sidewalk. \n\"Get off the sidewalk!\" Back in the road again. \n\"They need to ring their bells so we know they're coming! Btw I hate it when they ring their bells so I know they're coming.\"",
">\n\nI hate cyclists like that. I don’t have a car so my bike is my main source of transportation and I don’t ride like that. So far, from what I’ve noticed in my area, I’m the only one that follows the damn rules in my city xD",
">\n\nNo matter where you are and who you are… driver or walker, scooter or flyer… we ALL hate cyclists.",
">\n\nI feel ya. The only thing I hate more than cyclists is electric scooters.",
">\n\nCompletely agree! A cycling license (similar to driving) should be required. Far too many cyclist who doesn’t know (and those who don’t just give a F) about traffic rules.",
">\n\nI completely agree! Cyclists have a lot of rights on the roads, and are very vocal about them, but think they can do whatever the fuck they want at roundabouts and pedestrian crossings.",
">\n\nIt just fascinates me how anyone can walk or drive through a city and genuinely think that bicycles are the problem. Look around you at every turn there are cars jamming the roads. Parked blocking things. Blocking pavements. Driving aggressively. Speeding. Failing to stop. Polluting the air. If they hit you, you are seriously injured or dead. This happens in the thousands. The city absolutely revolves around them.",
">\n\nYou are 100% right. Except I didn't say bicycles are the problem. I said i hate them. I said fuck cars too. I also said bicycles are one of the best alternative for trafic jam in cities.\nCities in Europe weren't made for cars nor bikes. So the problem is the fucking lazy greedy people who decide how to spend our tax money. The problem is people thinking they are all alone on the street. The problem is how stressed everybody is and how it become dangerous.\nNot because I hate how cyclists take revenge from drivers bullies to pedestrians makes me hate a transportation model itself.",
">\n\nIt just seems odd that people can really harp on about cyclists when they are such a trivial issue. Posts like this can get hundreds of replies. People tend to make excuses about cars.",
">\n\nYou just insulted a whole country.",
">\n\nThe Netherlands? It's ok",
">\n\nOk",
">\n\nI judge the actions of the individual not the mode of transport. I find it produces more accurate results.",
">\n\nApparently \"individuals alone are responsible for their own actions\" is the real unpopular opinion here.",
">\n\nIndeed 😀",
">\n\nAs a car driver I also hate cyclists. Saw one on a 45mph the other day despite there being a sidewalk AND a bikelane",
">\n\n45 mph isn't a speed for bike lane or sidewalk. Street is",
">\n\nas a cyclist, I hate pedestrians.\nMy city put in these nice protected bicycle lanes so bikes don't have to ride inches from cars, and boy don't those pedestrians just LOVE using the bike lane as a queuing up spot for the crosswalks. it's just so nice and convenient to get 5 more feet closer to your goal, isn't it? Those bicycles can stop and wait...and feel free to swear at them like THEY are the ones in the wrong.\nBicycles and pedestrians are natural enemies, that's never going to change. There can be only one.",
">\n\nLET'S END THIS NOW !!!!!",
">\n\nanyplace but Holy Ground.",
">\n\ndon't blame all bicyclists for the shitty ones.\nthat would be like saying every person who drives a car is an asshole. or every person who walks on the sidewalk is an asshole.\nsome people are good at getting around. other people are jerks. don't blame everyone for the actions of a small subset of people.",
">\n\nI mean, isn’t that the sentiment over that the popular sub r/fuckcars? The generalization is already being perpetuated from cyclists and “urbanists” in their war against cars.",
">\n\nNot really. That sub mostly hates the focus on cars when designing infrastructure, as well as the forced dependency on cars in our modern world. Not individual drivers.",
">\n\nSure about that? It’s mostly just a bitch-fest about driver errors to further their political agenda.",
">\n\nYea, I'm pretty sure.",
">\n\nReally weird way to get there if that’s the case. Alienating a large portion of the population (car drivers, car riders, people that depend on vehicles for the delivery of goods and services) is not how you get them on your side.",
">\n\nI don't think that's their goal in the first place. It's just a reddit sub.",
">\n\nEspecially when they have a stupid fucking bell and say \"on the left\" then proceed to be on the right side of the trail running into you",
">\n\nHahahha \"is he coming on the left or should i go on the lef...\" BANG!!",
">\n\nGF lives in a college town. It’s as if there’s some kinda fuckin’ death wish among the student cycling population",
">\n\nAs a [insert anyone, including cyclist], I hate cyclists.",
">\n\nPeople don't wanna hear it when it comes from automobilists because \"gngn cars are more dangerous and drivers are entitled\" but reality is cyclists are just the worst. Whether I'm on foot, driving a car, or riding a bicycle myself, cyclists are always always the ones being absolute public hazards. Heck, when I'm on my bike and stop at the stop sign on a cycle lane to let the cars go, they look at me as if I'm jesus or something. They even try to let me pass first because of how used they are to cyclists who just can't be bothered to respect the damn stop sign.",
">\n\nThe problem isn't the cyclists here, it's the lacking infrastructure.",
">\n\nWe shouldn't have to build infrastructure so people can partake in recreation. I find that comment extremely arrogant. Why on earth do cyclists deserve to have their recreation glorified and catered to??",
">\n\nRecreation? Ah yes, cycling is only for recreation.",
">\n\nWell, where I live that I'd the ONLY purpose. I'm 17 miles from any city municipality. Nobody is biking here to go to the grocery store or work.",
">\n\nNot everything is about you personally.",
">\n\nTo me, it is, and should be. My concern is around how cyclists inconvenience me while I'm trying to be a productive member of society. I feel like that's a fair critique.",
">\n\nYou are mad that cyclists inconvenience you yet you reject dedicated infrastructure as a solution. Do you think cyclists should be banned off the road completely?",
">\n\nThe real issue here is lacking cycling infrastructure.",
">\n\nDefinitely a major issue.\nBut part of the issue is definitely cyclists who prioritize their own speed over the safety and welfare of everyone around them. It's like they are all BMW drivers, deep down, and just don't want to yield to or slow down for anyone.",
">\n\nI'm sure there are, assholes exist in all vehicle types.",
">\n\nCyclists know thar neither the pavement nor the road are theirs because motorists and pedestrians like you are both screaming at them all the time. And I swear you'd be angrier if they didn't give a polite warning that they're coming toward you. \nCyclists who breeze through crossings instead of stopping are a minority, much like cyclists are a minority in general, and you can't judge an entire group that aren't adequately represented",
">\n\nFuck traveling in general",
">\n\nYa. Where are our transporters! \nSorry had to go full nerd.",
">\n\nI see posts like this constantly. It blows my mind people can just choose one thing that is so insignificant to scapegoat. \nThey assume people on bikes don’t also walk, drive, etc like we are essentially subhuman for doing exercise / running errands in this way because they are inconvenienced for a few seconds. You realize we are human like you , right?\nPeople tell us to ride bicycles on the sidewalk when it’s illegal while others say not too. It’s usually against the law.\nThey tell us to ride closer to the right side of the road , so we get hit by a car door and yelled at again. \nThey’re mad that we give a verbal signal that we’re coming up on the left even though that’s the law. \nNow that I’m in Colorado I’m getting yelled at for the Idaho stop, which is completely legal. We yield to stop signs and temporarily stop at red lights only if it’s clear. It’s all to REDUCE CAR TRAFFIC. \nKeep in mind we are riding bicycles which in its own right REDUCES CAR TRAFFIC. \n80% of car trips are within 3 miles from your house. Everyone that rides a bike keeps you from being stuck behind them in traffic for longer then the 20 seconds you’re currently inconvenienced. It’s also mean parking closer to the front door of a shop. \nSo far I’ve had family members die from hit and runs and drunk drivers, but somehow cyclists are the most dangerous thing on the road today?! It’s not adding up.\nWhat is this really about?",
">\n\nI'm sorry for your losses. I never said bikers are the most dangerous things on the road. Saying this would be stupid. The problem in my city is the lack of respect from cyclists to pedestrians in a general way. I'm not even talking about drivers against EVERYTHING ON THE STREET.",
">\n\nI go out of my way to be respectful to everybody, and I’ve had nothing but kindness and respect from other cyclists .\nYou wanna blame everybody on a bicycle for all your problems when it’s really just about a few people who disrespected you. \nCyclists are drivers, walkers, etc. do they just jump on a bicycle and instantly become disrespectful?\nStill doesn’t make any logical sense.",
">\n\nDude you just don't get it.. i understand biking is your life.. but come on.\nI use to bike 40km per day to work. \nI don't have problems with people jumping on bikes. I simply hate the ones that are disrespectful.\nIs it too hard to understand? Just me venting coz I feel like a lot of bikers think they are on top of the citizen pyramid? \nI'm not venting about the system here, nor about cars.. just about some (yes some) bikers.\nAnd please there is no need to beg for upvotes on fuckcars how old are you?",
">\n\nI bet your fat.",
">\n\nOf course I fart !",
">\n\nTo you yours and to mine mine; I hate car users and their ilk who are filled with wonton waste and hate for all else who dare travel near them. I stop at all lights, halt for all signs, use a mirror, lights, and hand signals, pull over for cars coming my way so long as there is any room, and use what little biking infrastructure is available to me.\nMy taxes are waste and paid in folly for they assuredly go in portion to your reckless use of a powerful machine and not to my own reckless use of a small self-propelled stick on two wheels to separate lanes and keep them maintained. No, no, I must settle for the gutter and cry glee for that and be ashamed to move to the sidewalk when it suddenly ends and continues a block later down the road. \nFuck your car, your roads, and your selfish desire to pave the world and create cities with 60% of their coverage dedicated to driving a car, parking a car, and separating the world into places for cars and otherwise. You who drive faster and faster, in bigger and bigger cars. I loath you as you loath mine.",
">\n\nI wouldn’t hate cyclists if they didn’t act like road laws don’t apply to em in the city where I live. I’ve seen cyclists not even stop at red lights even with an almost full intersection, and ride the wrong way down one ways.\nEdit: I do wish the city where I live had more bike lanes but yeah.",
">\n\nIf you're going to hate someone, maybe hate the people actually doing those things.\nIf I see someone on a bike rush through a short break on a red light in an otherwise busy intersection, I shake my head and think they are an idiot. I think this while waiting for the light to turn green on my bike.\nSimilarly, when a car illegally stops in a bike lane (which happens ALL THE TIME by the way), I don't turn around and blame the cars moving along legally in the adjacent lane.",
">\n\nPedestrian are the worst.\nWhen i started using bicicle I was very polite: brake, ring, ask for permission. And what the large amount of people do? Ignore u, watch u in the eyes and take a step in the fucking middle of the trail (many many times! for real!), shout at you just because u exist. So.... At some point is fuck you all, I'm coming go out of the way. That's it",
">\n\n\nI will never drive nor park on a bike lane, always look into the mirror to be careful of one of you monkeys. So why can't you be careful when us peasants are walking?\n\nThis is dumb. Obviously there are plenty of cyclists who are careful and courteous about your safety. That's part of what a bell or \"watch out!\" (generally \"On your left\") is doing for you. And just because you are courteous to them doesn't mean everyone is. Is every driver a douchebag just because some of them crowd cyclists when and where the cyclist has the right to the road? No.",
">\n\nThe difference here is that generally car drivers are going to be held accountable for bad driving. This is in the form of dash cams, ANPR and red light cameras which catch drivers doing bad things and they can receive a fine or points on their licence. Cyclists currently can't be held accountable if they jump red lights or hit a car or pedestrian as there isn't anything that helps identify them. This is a big issue in cities. I live and work in London and see many cyclists jumping red lights and weaving around pedestrians crossing. Cars can't do this as most traffic lights have red light cameras that would catch this.\nDrivers as a collective (including me) are in no way perfect or even held to account 100% of the time, but I believe we need a system for cyclists to be held accountable too",
">\n\nYour way of thinking, while perfectly rational and natural, is outdated. Traffic law enforcement, like any other law enforcement, is less about the enforcement, and more about the prevention. Where I live, speed and red light cameras are clearly marked ahead so that the people who'd normally break the law follow it instead, making punishment unnecessary. \nSame could be done with cyclists. Sure, you could make every cyclist install a license plate, require a \"cycling license\", or install expensive cameras with facial identification software, but how about just make it so cyclists aren't incentivised to break the law in the first place? \nMake more useful cycling infrastructure, and more cyclists will use it. Make that infrastructure intersect with foot and motor traffic more safely and less often, and less collisions will happen.",
">\n\nI completely understand your point. However, a lot of money has gone into my local area for cycling infrastructure that most cyclists are using, but many are still choosing to break the rules as the rules are inconvenient. The infrastructure is not enough, there needs to be an incentive NOT to break the rules.\nIf you take a look at Chiswick High Road in London, England. They have created segregated cycle lanes from the traffic. These cycle lanes have their own lights and crossings to keep them safe from cars. However many cyclists just ignore the lights and just keep going into pedestrians. There is no punishment for them doing this as they can't be tracked. Personally I think every cyclist should have to register their bike (make it free to help encourage this) and then a new form of ANPR used to also catch cyclists in the act",
">\n\nPersonally I'd have no problem registering my bike for free, especially if I could use that same registration if it gets stolen, but registering something as mechanically simple and cheap as a bicycle is, in my opinion difficult if not impossible to do without making the bike mechanically complex and expensive, at which point most people would just switch to scooters.\nI don't live in London, but from what I've heard, by far the biggest threat in the city is still motorized traffic, namely cars and lorries, and so until that problem is no longer a problem, I wouldn't really do anything special about bikes. Maybe put some undercover bike cops near the most dangerous bike path/lane intersections to catch a few offenders and make an example out of them, but that's about it.",
">\n\nMost cars I’ve driven came equipped with brakes and a steering wheel. I don’t see the problem",
">\n\nA common take and a stupid one.\nThere are good and bad drivers, pedestrians, and cyclists. Hating any of them as a group because some of them do bad things is just dumb.",
">\n\nIf you followed the laws and stayed out of the bike lane as a pedestrian there would be no problem.",
">\n\nIf bicyclists followed the laws and stopped ignoring street signs/traffic lights there would be no problem.",
">\n\nDon’t see how this address the problem with pedestrians in bike lanes.",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Drivers pedestrians other cyclists. They're a scourge.",
">\n\nEvery word of this is pure wisdom.",
">\n\nAs a car driver, I too hate cyclists.\nI don't care who has 'right of way'. I'm in a car, you're not. If we collide, regardless of fault, you're the one that dies.\nDo you really want to die on the hill that says \"i can bike on the rode b/c it's legal\"?\nI might be in jail, but you're still dead.\nBikes don't belong on public roads. Unless there's a bike lane - aka, a pathway designed specifically for bikers.\nIt's FAR SAFER to bike on the sidewalk.",
">\n\nBe careful you’ll anger r/fuckcars",
">\n\nI recently got a bike in Japan and there isn't any room on the street to ride my bike. Most people are fine when I'm on the sidewalk, however, the worst ones are groups of 2 or more who try and take up as much space as possible allowing nobody to pass. Same with the people who constantly switch between the left and right side of the sidewalk. It's really annoying to see how little spacial awareness they have.",
">\n\nCyclists on the road don’t have to pass the same test as vehicles on the road, which is why they are so bad. If there was a test in order to cycle on the road then i think it would be alot better",
">\n\nWhy do you hate all cyclists when only some of them are rude/dangerous?",
">\n\nCope hehe",
">\n\nIt's the powered vehicles that kill most pedestrians.\nBut, sure, cyclists blahblah...",
">\n\nAs an occasional cyclist, I don't like you either.",
">\n\nI biked everywhere.....when I was a child. I'm an adult now and have an automobile. They are pretty neat.",
">\n\nWhen I used to have to walk to work I’d walk on the sidewalk and listen to music and one time this guy zipped right by me yelling almost knocking me over and flipped me off?? They act like they don’t have breaks lmao",
">\n\nholy smokes! glad you're ok",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Even cyclists."
] |
>
Everyone hates cyclists. Even other cyclists.
|
[
"I road cycled for years, I always followed the street rules. Always. Red light means red light. \nI have so many cycling friends who get into accidents and other conflicts with drivers, and yet they think it’s stupid to stop at a red light. They just don’t connect these two things",
">\n\nMost bikers I encounter are complete idiots. Like I'd be driving normally and out of nowhere comes a biker on a crosswalk in full speed. Now, I appreciate bikers who actually stop and make eye contact with me as I'm driving towards the crosswalk but man, it's either that or the biker almost dies because I have no time to brake.\nAnd what's up with all the bikers going like 5 kmh IN THE MIDDLE of a road when there's a dedicated sidewalk for bikers right next to them? Drives me insane.",
">\n\nIt seems like most bikers because of observation bias.\nIf you follow the rules as you should, you’re unmemorable.\nAs for the sidewalks - its actually less safe on the sidewalk.",
">\n\nInteresting. Dangerous situations are more valuable to remember, and I remember tons of irresponsible bikers. It is in fact observation bias. But I'm always happy to see those who pay close attention to traffic, and I do remeber some of them aswell.",
">\n\nWell the same goes for driving. How many cars do you remember when they haven’t done anything? But you tend to remember the ones who do something dumb",
">\n\nYeah it can be applied to anything really.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist in one of the most bike-dense cities in the world, I hate cyclists too. If I could avoid getting myself hurt, I’d be ramming at least ten of them a day just to teach a lesson about ignoring rules and common sense.",
">\n\nAmsterdam? Copenhagen?",
">\n\nCopenhagen. It’s a wonderful bike city but the people are incredibly self-centered.",
">\n\nI had high expectations from cyclists when I first visited the city, after all it is heralded as a cycling paradise and, well, let’s say it looked a lot more like the rest of the world and mainly because of the personal behavior of cyclists.\nMy local friend justified it, stating that it’s because danish are more temperamental than all other Scandinavians: an explanation that I really didn’t know what to do with…",
">\n\nIf “temperamental” means “a bunch of egotistical [insert unflattering body part]”, he’s right.",
">\n\nYou make it sound like a war zone. I live in Copenhagen and most of the time biking around the city is very pleasant. Except for the food delivery scooters, they can 🤬 off.",
">\n\nI guess it depends on how often and where you’re going. If you have places to be each and every day and want to get there effectively, people ignoring general rules and courtesies of the road are a pain. If you’re one of the types listening to podcasts with a latte in one hand and a phone in the other just trudging along, it’s probably fine.",
">\n\nSame! I love walking. Where I live on popular trails, there are bike lanes, but the cyclists will just ride wherever they. They don’t care and won’t let you know they’re coming. They’ll get pissy if you don’t just automatically know they’re coming up from behind you. If you do much as step foot in the bike lane, they get mad, but have no problems riding side by side outside the bike lane.",
">\n\nSame here! So much for my pleasant walk on the beautiful Trail. They sneak up and when they're almost on top of me, a loud voice yells \"On your left!\" They startle the shit out of me and cause me to jump sky high! 😡",
">\n\nIt’s literally the law to say that. This thread is all about hating them no matter if they follow the law or not.",
">\n\nIs it possible to do that without sneaking up on them and startling the shit out of them by yelling real loud? And then cutting is close to them as you possibly can without hitting them?",
">\n\nHello. \nMy useless comment to this post is here :D\nSo, i work in the accidents department of a big insurance company. My country is very strickt about the road rules, meaning:\nOur company estimates (is this the right word?) that around 82% of accidents involving cyclists, are to blame on the cyclist. Since there are expecific places on the road for you to ride your bike, even if it's not a bike lane.\nI remember a case where 3 dudes were just cycling, outside of town and they were literally on the middle of the road. the place where they were is full of curves and has very little visibility, so they were riding side by side, middle of the road, comes a car, hits not one, but the 3 of them because they scared the person and she just swerved the car.\nThey sued her and us (insurance) 2 times. Lost both and had to pay for all damage done on the car by their own bodys",
">\n\nThis sounds like something that happened near by my home town, are you in Ontario?",
">\n\nno XD portugal",
">\n\nGod its so much worse that it's happened in multiple places.\nIn ours I think the driver killed one of the cyclists, then sued the family for emotional damage",
">\n\nMy biggest gripe about cyclists is that there is always some danger when you encounter them on the road, either as a pedestrian or motorist. Now, part of it isn’t their fault. At least here in the US, not much of the infrastructure is made for bicycles. But cyclists are constantly breaking the rules of the road (or sidewalk) to get where they’re going faster. Blowing red lights, leaving the bike lane to use the sidewalk, splitting lanes. I always clench a little when I approach one, wondering if this is the day I can’t get out of the way.",
">\n\nWe have that same problem, but then a million times worse, because I live in The Netherlands. You probably know about our proud cycling culture (the Amsterdam stereotype). And yes, cyclists here are just as bad as the ones you describe, but there’s a lot more of them here. And oh yeah, traffic laws are almost always in their favor.",
">\n\nI found driving in the towns of the Netherlands so hard. Not just because I was on the wrong side of the road 😉 but because I just wasn’t used to sooo many cyclists coming from all directions, always faster than me and passing on both sides. Even as I was signalling to leave a roundabout at one point about three cyclists rode past on the inside. I really struggled to keep up with them all, which of course means I drove slower and thus even more bikes passed me!",
">\n\nYes that is of course very difficult, however as a Dutchman I’m used to cyclists, so of course we struggle a lot less. But that doesn’t take away from the fact that cyclists do cause a lot of issues because of their careless behavior, and because as drivers we have to accommodate them. That one sided ‘deal’ that we have makes it very difficult to deal with them.\nAll in all I’m happy we have so many cyclists as it’s good for the environment. But the utopian mindset of cyclists being a gift to the world is just stupid. Especially when you consider that mostly Americans who drive on wide open roads with barely any cyclists around are the ones praising cyclists in my country all the time. Also, cyclists annoy the hell out of pedestrians as well, so it’s not just about motorists.",
">\n\nCyclists treat red lights like stop signs and stop signs like yield signs (at best). They’re not allowed on sidewalks but do it anyway. Fuckin hate cyclists.",
">\n\nEverything you said is completely legal in Denver and sidewalks are illegal , but drivers constantly scream at cyclists to ride there",
">\n\nCyclist can roll stop signs and run red lights in Denver? What the fuck?",
">\n\nI’d have no problem if cyclist had respect for other road users. where I live there are cycle lanes, but most cyclists are on the road or pavements, they ignore red lights etc. \nIf you want to cycle please make it’s safe for yourself and others around you.",
">\n\nExactly my thoughts",
">\n\nHonestly, selfish assholes exist everywhere but a selfish asshole on a bicycle does a lot less damage than a selfish asshole in a car. \nEDIT: OP's also downvoting everyone who disagrees with him, just fyi.",
">\n\nAs a pedestrian, I hate everyone who's not a pedestrian... And some pedestrians too.",
">\n\nThere's a reason so many cyclists die each year, they all seem to pick and choose which laws they want to follow. Its always safer to assume they'll do whatever they want and everyone else needs to adapt to them.",
">\n\nAs a driver downtown, I don't worry at all about pedestrians at intersections, I can turn my head and assume they will be maybe five feet closer to my car when I look back, (and I trust they won't sprint towards me when I look away, at their own peril), but bikes, they ride so fast, that in the short time I turn my head to check for oncoming traffic, a bike could materialize right beside / infront me, and I risk hitting them or them hitting the side of my car. And that's even in their designated bike lane, that I have to pass through to clear the intersection. And if I drive into a ped at three miles per hour, they will just hit my hood with their fist and call me a stupid motherfucker, or whatever makes them feel justice was served, but if I bump the bike, it will be a big crash, the bicyclist will be all curled up in a ball on the ground, I'll be the bad guy in the eyes of the law and anyone nearby, and I'll probably be late as fuck to wherever it is I'm trying to go to.",
">\n\nI skateboard so I guess I'm good",
">\n\nJust don’t inconvenience narcissistic car drivers by a few seconds.",
">\n\nI think everyone hates cyclists. Cyclists included.",
">\n\nAs a driver, I hate you both",
">\n\nPedestrians are literally the worst. Anyone who has to walk more than 20 feet a day and not to their car are complete losers, and should be jailed on site.",
">\n\nOK, I think that's a bit extreme. But hey, if you're running for public office I'll vote for you. \nI do have to wonder anytime I see someone that I know has the mental faculties to drive who is walking. Usually assume too many DUI's.",
">\n\nr/fuckcars ripping out their hair rn",
">\n\nNot unpopular.\n Everyone hates cyclists.",
">\n\nI casually cycle in the summer. If I'm on a trail, I'll slow down and ring my bell if I see pedestrians, or stop and dismount if there's a lot of people or they don't notice me. Especially on the narrow trails in this woodlot I sometimes go to. \nThe problem is a lot of cyclists, especially in North America, but perhaps other places, just aren't respectful of others. They demand car drivers \"share the road\", but then ride in huge packs, lane split, don't signal turns, run stop signs and red lights, weave in and out of traffic, boot up busy sidewalks at 15-20mph, refuse to use provided bike lanes, etc. There's like a gross sense of entitlement in the cycling community. Dude, you're still a vehicle. There's rules that apply to you, just like there are for cars and motorcycles. Big problem is difficulty/lack of enforcement. Cops have to catch them in the act. Even then they're slippery devils since they're usually more mobile than a cruiser or beat cop on foot. This is why I support plating bikes to make them easily identifiable.",
">\n\n\nThere's like a gross sense of entitlement in the cycling community. Dude, you're still a vehicle. There's rules that apply to you, just like there are for cars and motorcycles.\n\nThat is the problem right there. They want to be treated equal to car owners, yet they do not abide by traffic rules, hence all the accidents.",
">\n\nAs a driver, I concur.",
">\n\nI hate bikers on trails. They're supposed to stop and let hikers by but they never do. They go by so freakin' fast too. It's like come on now!",
">\n\nAs a mostly former cyclist, I often hated cyclists too. Mostly, because so many cyclist are just competitive asshats that suck the pleasure out of their own bike ride by making everything about speed. Like, heaven forbid they have to slow and yield to anyone.\nOnce, I was riding my bicycle with my young daughter on a bike path in the city. A couple cyclist came up and got all pissy at us, saying we need to be out of the cycle lane because we were going too slow and my 8 year old kid wasn't keeping to a narrow lane. It was so hostile - my kid started crying.\nBut that is just so typical, all the time. I've gotten yelled out a few times when I made a full, foot down stop at a redlight because the cyclist behind me was expecting me to either run the redlight or at least go into the crosswalk and dance around (like they do) until it went green. I remember nearly getting run over by cyclists all the time, and yelled at if I was going too slow.\nThat being said, we need to do 100,000 x more in the US towards making bike paths, protected bike lanes, etc., because cyling is a truly great way to get around and I miss it. I just don't miss the self-centered asshats that dominate the cycling community.",
">\n\nThis!",
">\n\nI’ve nothing against cyclists as a group. I prefer to hate all people who do stupid things whether they’re in cars, on bikes or walking. Went to pick my daughter up tonight and counted six cyclists in the dark wearing all black with no lights at all plus one with a light so weak I didn’t see it until I was nearly past him. Tonight it was dumb cyclists, but tomorrow it might be idiots in cars. Hate the idiots not the method of transportation.",
">\n\nTrue !",
">\n\nOMG YES !! I completely agree. Every time i tried to explain this to a friend, they would always look at me like I am crazy for thinking such a thing. But as I walk for 45 minutes every days, it became a reality you can't ignore... I can't count how many times I nearly got hit by a cyclist, it happens every other week. I am starting to think that cyclists should have to go through a \"course\" to learn the basics of using the streets x)\n(Sorry for mistakes, not native here 'x) )",
">\n\nThis is my story lol..",
">\n\nYes, and it also is my personal experience, which is why I posted this..?",
">\n\nYes I totally agree. Just saying \"that's my life\" :) happening in Brussels tho",
">\n\nMy bad x) welp France here, it amazes me in a really bad way how this seems to be such a common phenomenon literaly EVERYWHERE",
">\n\nJ'ai roulé en vélo à Paris et laisse tomber l'enfer que c'était. J'avais l'impression d'avancer avec des oies qui insultaient tout le monde. BAa bAAA BAaaAa !!! \nLe problème c'est que plus les gens sont stressés (même les piétons... Genre dans le metro) plus ils se haïssent et ce matin j'avais la haine sur les vélos.. en vrai j'ai la haine sur tous les citadins haha",
">\n\nas a cyclist I hate everyone",
">\n\nSame, I see posts like this where people tell us to ride on the sidewalk when it’s illegal. \nThey assume we don’t walk anywhere, drive, etc like we are essentially subhuman for doing exercise.\nThey tell us to ride closer to the right side of the road so we get hit by a car door. \nThey’re mad that we give a verbal signal that we’re coming up on the left even though that’s the law. \nnow that I’m in Colorado I’m getting yelled at for the Idaho stop, which is completely legal. We yield to stop signs and temporarily stop at red light only till it’s clear. It’s all to REDUCE CAR TRAFFIC.\nSo far I’ve had family members die from hit and runs and drunk drivers, but somehow cyclists are the most dangerous thing on the road today.\nWhat is this really about?",
">\n\nI loathe cyclists. Selfish, entitled lycra lunatics.",
">\n\nBe honest, do you realize that it's possible to ride a bicycle and not be selfish, or entitled, or a lunatic, or not wear lycra?",
">\n\nThis thread is such a circlejerk, it's ridiculous.",
">\n\nThat's what I'm here for",
">\n\nIt's because cycling isn't regulated like motor vehicles are but they still get on the roads unlike pedestrians. So they don't have knowledge on the rules of the road that drivers have.\nThere's also some sort of hypocrisy they have where they believe drivers should give way to them because bikes are more vulnerable than cars while expecting pedestrians to give way to them because they're moving faster.",
">\n\n\nSo they don't have knowledge on the rules of the road\n\nPlenty do. Many cyclists also are automobilists. They just feel like they're exempted from respecting trafic rules because it's tiring to stop and go on a bike and they're slower an lighter than cars.",
">\n\nSure you got hit by a truck, but at least you managed to save yourself a little time and avoid waiting for a few seconds. Is what I'd say if they didn't then end up in the hospital",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists, as it should be.",
">\n\nCyclists shouldn’t be on sidewalks",
">\n\nI also cringe a lot when I see the international Reddit community constantly praise us Dutch people for our biking culture. People have no idea how many traffic accidents we get that could have been avoided if we didn’t have cyclists EVERYWHERE who are barely aware of the traffic rules that also apply to them.\nPeople have no idea about how cyclists are almost always right according to our traffic laws, which makes them much more reckless. They cause millions of dollars of damage to cars (and pedestrians) each year, and barely ever face consequences for their irresponsible and reckless behavior in traffic.\nPeople don’t see how cyclists often block traffic because they like to cycle next to each other in pairs, and if you honk they get angry and sometimes even aggressive and try to break your side mirror if they feel like it.\nMany intersections have bicycle lanes that you need to check when making a turn when driving, even though the intersection is already super busy with lots of cars. And guess what, cyclists still ride around fast and recklessly and making sure you don’t hit another car, cyclist AND pedestrian is all the job of one single driver.\nSo all in all, people from countries where driving is a relatively easy and chill thing to do, praise cycling culture in other countries. Try to drive here in busy traffic with thousands of cars AND (RECKLESS) CYCLISTS on the road and then tell me what it’s like.",
">\n\nIt would be much easier to sympathize with cars drivers if they did not need like 60% of the entire transit space leaving cyclists and pedestrians very little.\n\neven though the intersection is already super busy with lots of cars\n\nOfc, because cars are so large and need so much space.",
">\n\nI get that, but why is that my fault? I don’t do the city planning. Besides, cars are much larger than bicycles, so doesn’t it make sense there’s more space needed for cars than for bicycles?\nBut even then, if you don’t want to have any sympathy for motorists, because city planners give them more space than others, that’s just weird. It’s not the motorist’s fault.",
">\n\n\ndoesn’t it make sense there’s more space needed for cars than for bicycles?\n\nWhy a valuable and scarce resource such as the public space in cities should be used predominantly to benefit car users while barring everyone else? \nI just find it much harder to sympathize with the privileged group.",
">\n\nBecause people need to be able to go from A to B?",
">\n\nSo do pedestrians/public transport users/cyclists. But they don't require so much space per person.",
">\n\nWell in The Netherlands public transportation takes up an enormous amount of space and cyclists have their own dedicated lanes almost everywhere. Also motorists have to give public transportation space as we usually have to stop for trams and buses to pass, according to traffic rules. Guess who doesn’t often follow those rules: cyclists.\nHowever, public transportation itself is super busy and unbelievably expensive in The Netherlands. It costs more than 20 Euros to travel ~70 kilometers. That’s why a lot of people still prefer to have a car, and cars simply need infrastructure.\nSo I don’t really get your point. Cars, bicycles and public transportation all get a fair portion of the space that’s available.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist, i hate pedestrians. Here in Germany, there is bike lanes, one part for bikes and one for pedestrians on traffic lights... etc. But the pedestrians just ignore them, form \"walls\" of people blocking the bike lane, dont look while crossing the bike lane. Even cars repect us more than you.",
">\n\nThis I understand. Experienced the same in Denmark",
">\n\nClaaaaaarksoooooonnnnn",
">\n\nIdk about other places but here cyclists are constantly breaking the law and never getting ticketed for it. It makes no sense to me. I don’t think it’d make a huge difference but I do think some cyclists would think twice about disregarding the rules if those rules were actually enforced.",
">\n\nI get the sentiment. My feeling is the root cause is they don’t have their own infrastructure. Cars and peds do. So cyclists are always forced into a non ideal path. \nI’m aware they have rights to the road but cars and bikes really struggle to share an infrastructure clearly made for cars. \nSo if we invest in cycling infrastructure everyone would probably be happier.",
">\n\ndoubt it. In my city there is an asphalt bike path for miles that is like 8 feet wide. Smooth. No stop signs. Do they use it? nope they get their collective ass out on the street and I honestly don't have a clue why.\nIt defies logic. Safter, smooth, not cars/trunks, etc. Here they are out on the street just fiddle farting down a 45 mph road like they own it with a bike path 15 feet away with no one on it. The last guy I asked said \"It is my road as well you know\" that I ran up on while I was at a crossing while riding on the path myself. I just gave up trying to understand. Someone dies on that road every couple of months from bike or pedestrian strike with a vehicle. It was the whole reason they built the path....",
">\n\nWell in my experience there are 2 thing going on there.\na) Often bikers will avoid the path because peds often share or walk across those paths and their speed is closer to that of a car than a ped or \nb) If they are commuting...the path likely isn't going exactly where they need to.\nAs to your specific scenario I don't doubt there are bikers that are hard headed and stubborn. I know a few of those. But generally I do bikers using the infrastructure where we have built it.",
">\n\nThere's an accident here involving @ car running over a cyclist who crossed a red traffic light. And guess who take the blame?",
">\n\nLaughs in being dutch",
">\n\nIt is regrettable that a handful of asshole cyclists ruins everyone’s opinion of us. It really undermines the support needed to improve infrastructure for cycling. \nIf it is any help, when i ring my bell, I am doing so to avoid the alternatives of either yelling a warning or startling people. I normally exit the path and pass on the grass. I would say that most cyclist are the same. I don’t want you to get out of the way, I want you to know I am there. \nBut it only takes a couple assholes that think they own the path or the street. I have a cousin like this and it is difficult to convince him his is wrong and is putting himself and others in danger.",
">\n\nI think the a-holes are people that are only on a bike because it's the easiest thing for them, living where they do. You and those like you are on the bike because you love cycling.",
">\n\nI live in Portland, OR, and the cyclists here are so fucking rude and entitled.",
">\n\nI live in not-Portland OR and visited once. I biked down the road. Could not believe how nice everyone was to me. Probably because they could tell I’m an outsider.",
">\n\nI meant how they treat everyone else who isn't on a bike, tbh.",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists and it's for a simple reason. They think they can do whatever the hell they want. They switch between a pedestrian, a cyclist and a vehicle deciding on the fly whatever rules they feel like following with no accountability. \nOne minute they are skipping traffic, then they are deciding to cross at a crosswalk instead of following traffic. And the sidewalks are bike lanes if that's more convenient.",
">\n\nI just get annoyed because they will ride double wide on a tight street, forcing you to go 60mph in a 45, on the opposite side of traffic, risking a head on collision. And yea, you have to do that, because otherwise cars behind you will start driving aggressive as well as the fact that your expecting all the cars to go at a bikes speed on the road.",
">\n\nThat's because every country except for the Netherlands and Denmark have shit bicycle infrastructure.",
">\n\nI civilised countries we have cycling paths and cycling on the street is also possible as drivers aren't insane. So this seems rather like a problem of poor urban planning than cyclists in general.",
">\n\nWhere I live the cyclists just refuse to take the bikelane and either block the traffic because the rather use the street or they decide to use the pedestrian side of the sidewalk. The frickin bikelane is as big as the pedestrian one. There is no excuse not to use it and they still won't! One of them almost hit me if I hadn't dodge it. If the cyclist only drove a few inches to the left there would have been a bikelane and it wouldn't happened. Of course the person didn't apologize and just cursed at me.",
">\n\nBike gutters are awful and less safe than taking the lane. Assholes park in the bike lanes ALL THE TIME. Plus no one ever looks behind them when getting out pf their car so getting smacked by a door is a real danger. Drivers are entitled but it’s not their fault it’s the way we’ve built society to allow and expect them to be.\nETA: next time you’re driving around take a count how many people you see pulled over or parked in a bike gutter.",
">\n\nCompletely agree - I was ran over almost 3 times in Berlin. \nAnd every single time I checked before crossing - but they just suddenly spawned right in the way",
">\n\nDid you cross at a designated crosswalk? As a cyclist the amount of times people just randomly meander across an active street instead of going to the zebra/lollipop crossing, and then get angry at me when I have to swerve out the way/ brake is comical.",
">\n\nMan, y'all are sad people. \n\"Get off the road!\" Okay, now we are on the sidewalk. \n\"Get off the sidewalk!\" Back in the road again. \n\"They need to ring their bells so we know they're coming! Btw I hate it when they ring their bells so I know they're coming.\"",
">\n\nI hate cyclists like that. I don’t have a car so my bike is my main source of transportation and I don’t ride like that. So far, from what I’ve noticed in my area, I’m the only one that follows the damn rules in my city xD",
">\n\nNo matter where you are and who you are… driver or walker, scooter or flyer… we ALL hate cyclists.",
">\n\nI feel ya. The only thing I hate more than cyclists is electric scooters.",
">\n\nCompletely agree! A cycling license (similar to driving) should be required. Far too many cyclist who doesn’t know (and those who don’t just give a F) about traffic rules.",
">\n\nI completely agree! Cyclists have a lot of rights on the roads, and are very vocal about them, but think they can do whatever the fuck they want at roundabouts and pedestrian crossings.",
">\n\nIt just fascinates me how anyone can walk or drive through a city and genuinely think that bicycles are the problem. Look around you at every turn there are cars jamming the roads. Parked blocking things. Blocking pavements. Driving aggressively. Speeding. Failing to stop. Polluting the air. If they hit you, you are seriously injured or dead. This happens in the thousands. The city absolutely revolves around them.",
">\n\nYou are 100% right. Except I didn't say bicycles are the problem. I said i hate them. I said fuck cars too. I also said bicycles are one of the best alternative for trafic jam in cities.\nCities in Europe weren't made for cars nor bikes. So the problem is the fucking lazy greedy people who decide how to spend our tax money. The problem is people thinking they are all alone on the street. The problem is how stressed everybody is and how it become dangerous.\nNot because I hate how cyclists take revenge from drivers bullies to pedestrians makes me hate a transportation model itself.",
">\n\nIt just seems odd that people can really harp on about cyclists when they are such a trivial issue. Posts like this can get hundreds of replies. People tend to make excuses about cars.",
">\n\nYou just insulted a whole country.",
">\n\nThe Netherlands? It's ok",
">\n\nOk",
">\n\nI judge the actions of the individual not the mode of transport. I find it produces more accurate results.",
">\n\nApparently \"individuals alone are responsible for their own actions\" is the real unpopular opinion here.",
">\n\nIndeed 😀",
">\n\nAs a car driver I also hate cyclists. Saw one on a 45mph the other day despite there being a sidewalk AND a bikelane",
">\n\n45 mph isn't a speed for bike lane or sidewalk. Street is",
">\n\nas a cyclist, I hate pedestrians.\nMy city put in these nice protected bicycle lanes so bikes don't have to ride inches from cars, and boy don't those pedestrians just LOVE using the bike lane as a queuing up spot for the crosswalks. it's just so nice and convenient to get 5 more feet closer to your goal, isn't it? Those bicycles can stop and wait...and feel free to swear at them like THEY are the ones in the wrong.\nBicycles and pedestrians are natural enemies, that's never going to change. There can be only one.",
">\n\nLET'S END THIS NOW !!!!!",
">\n\nanyplace but Holy Ground.",
">\n\ndon't blame all bicyclists for the shitty ones.\nthat would be like saying every person who drives a car is an asshole. or every person who walks on the sidewalk is an asshole.\nsome people are good at getting around. other people are jerks. don't blame everyone for the actions of a small subset of people.",
">\n\nI mean, isn’t that the sentiment over that the popular sub r/fuckcars? The generalization is already being perpetuated from cyclists and “urbanists” in their war against cars.",
">\n\nNot really. That sub mostly hates the focus on cars when designing infrastructure, as well as the forced dependency on cars in our modern world. Not individual drivers.",
">\n\nSure about that? It’s mostly just a bitch-fest about driver errors to further their political agenda.",
">\n\nYea, I'm pretty sure.",
">\n\nReally weird way to get there if that’s the case. Alienating a large portion of the population (car drivers, car riders, people that depend on vehicles for the delivery of goods and services) is not how you get them on your side.",
">\n\nI don't think that's their goal in the first place. It's just a reddit sub.",
">\n\nEspecially when they have a stupid fucking bell and say \"on the left\" then proceed to be on the right side of the trail running into you",
">\n\nHahahha \"is he coming on the left or should i go on the lef...\" BANG!!",
">\n\nGF lives in a college town. It’s as if there’s some kinda fuckin’ death wish among the student cycling population",
">\n\nAs a [insert anyone, including cyclist], I hate cyclists.",
">\n\nPeople don't wanna hear it when it comes from automobilists because \"gngn cars are more dangerous and drivers are entitled\" but reality is cyclists are just the worst. Whether I'm on foot, driving a car, or riding a bicycle myself, cyclists are always always the ones being absolute public hazards. Heck, when I'm on my bike and stop at the stop sign on a cycle lane to let the cars go, they look at me as if I'm jesus or something. They even try to let me pass first because of how used they are to cyclists who just can't be bothered to respect the damn stop sign.",
">\n\nThe problem isn't the cyclists here, it's the lacking infrastructure.",
">\n\nWe shouldn't have to build infrastructure so people can partake in recreation. I find that comment extremely arrogant. Why on earth do cyclists deserve to have their recreation glorified and catered to??",
">\n\nRecreation? Ah yes, cycling is only for recreation.",
">\n\nWell, where I live that I'd the ONLY purpose. I'm 17 miles from any city municipality. Nobody is biking here to go to the grocery store or work.",
">\n\nNot everything is about you personally.",
">\n\nTo me, it is, and should be. My concern is around how cyclists inconvenience me while I'm trying to be a productive member of society. I feel like that's a fair critique.",
">\n\nYou are mad that cyclists inconvenience you yet you reject dedicated infrastructure as a solution. Do you think cyclists should be banned off the road completely?",
">\n\nThe real issue here is lacking cycling infrastructure.",
">\n\nDefinitely a major issue.\nBut part of the issue is definitely cyclists who prioritize their own speed over the safety and welfare of everyone around them. It's like they are all BMW drivers, deep down, and just don't want to yield to or slow down for anyone.",
">\n\nI'm sure there are, assholes exist in all vehicle types.",
">\n\nCyclists know thar neither the pavement nor the road are theirs because motorists and pedestrians like you are both screaming at them all the time. And I swear you'd be angrier if they didn't give a polite warning that they're coming toward you. \nCyclists who breeze through crossings instead of stopping are a minority, much like cyclists are a minority in general, and you can't judge an entire group that aren't adequately represented",
">\n\nFuck traveling in general",
">\n\nYa. Where are our transporters! \nSorry had to go full nerd.",
">\n\nI see posts like this constantly. It blows my mind people can just choose one thing that is so insignificant to scapegoat. \nThey assume people on bikes don’t also walk, drive, etc like we are essentially subhuman for doing exercise / running errands in this way because they are inconvenienced for a few seconds. You realize we are human like you , right?\nPeople tell us to ride bicycles on the sidewalk when it’s illegal while others say not too. It’s usually against the law.\nThey tell us to ride closer to the right side of the road , so we get hit by a car door and yelled at again. \nThey’re mad that we give a verbal signal that we’re coming up on the left even though that’s the law. \nNow that I’m in Colorado I’m getting yelled at for the Idaho stop, which is completely legal. We yield to stop signs and temporarily stop at red lights only if it’s clear. It’s all to REDUCE CAR TRAFFIC. \nKeep in mind we are riding bicycles which in its own right REDUCES CAR TRAFFIC. \n80% of car trips are within 3 miles from your house. Everyone that rides a bike keeps you from being stuck behind them in traffic for longer then the 20 seconds you’re currently inconvenienced. It’s also mean parking closer to the front door of a shop. \nSo far I’ve had family members die from hit and runs and drunk drivers, but somehow cyclists are the most dangerous thing on the road today?! It’s not adding up.\nWhat is this really about?",
">\n\nI'm sorry for your losses. I never said bikers are the most dangerous things on the road. Saying this would be stupid. The problem in my city is the lack of respect from cyclists to pedestrians in a general way. I'm not even talking about drivers against EVERYTHING ON THE STREET.",
">\n\nI go out of my way to be respectful to everybody, and I’ve had nothing but kindness and respect from other cyclists .\nYou wanna blame everybody on a bicycle for all your problems when it’s really just about a few people who disrespected you. \nCyclists are drivers, walkers, etc. do they just jump on a bicycle and instantly become disrespectful?\nStill doesn’t make any logical sense.",
">\n\nDude you just don't get it.. i understand biking is your life.. but come on.\nI use to bike 40km per day to work. \nI don't have problems with people jumping on bikes. I simply hate the ones that are disrespectful.\nIs it too hard to understand? Just me venting coz I feel like a lot of bikers think they are on top of the citizen pyramid? \nI'm not venting about the system here, nor about cars.. just about some (yes some) bikers.\nAnd please there is no need to beg for upvotes on fuckcars how old are you?",
">\n\nI bet your fat.",
">\n\nOf course I fart !",
">\n\nTo you yours and to mine mine; I hate car users and their ilk who are filled with wonton waste and hate for all else who dare travel near them. I stop at all lights, halt for all signs, use a mirror, lights, and hand signals, pull over for cars coming my way so long as there is any room, and use what little biking infrastructure is available to me.\nMy taxes are waste and paid in folly for they assuredly go in portion to your reckless use of a powerful machine and not to my own reckless use of a small self-propelled stick on two wheels to separate lanes and keep them maintained. No, no, I must settle for the gutter and cry glee for that and be ashamed to move to the sidewalk when it suddenly ends and continues a block later down the road. \nFuck your car, your roads, and your selfish desire to pave the world and create cities with 60% of their coverage dedicated to driving a car, parking a car, and separating the world into places for cars and otherwise. You who drive faster and faster, in bigger and bigger cars. I loath you as you loath mine.",
">\n\nI wouldn’t hate cyclists if they didn’t act like road laws don’t apply to em in the city where I live. I’ve seen cyclists not even stop at red lights even with an almost full intersection, and ride the wrong way down one ways.\nEdit: I do wish the city where I live had more bike lanes but yeah.",
">\n\nIf you're going to hate someone, maybe hate the people actually doing those things.\nIf I see someone on a bike rush through a short break on a red light in an otherwise busy intersection, I shake my head and think they are an idiot. I think this while waiting for the light to turn green on my bike.\nSimilarly, when a car illegally stops in a bike lane (which happens ALL THE TIME by the way), I don't turn around and blame the cars moving along legally in the adjacent lane.",
">\n\nPedestrian are the worst.\nWhen i started using bicicle I was very polite: brake, ring, ask for permission. And what the large amount of people do? Ignore u, watch u in the eyes and take a step in the fucking middle of the trail (many many times! for real!), shout at you just because u exist. So.... At some point is fuck you all, I'm coming go out of the way. That's it",
">\n\n\nI will never drive nor park on a bike lane, always look into the mirror to be careful of one of you monkeys. So why can't you be careful when us peasants are walking?\n\nThis is dumb. Obviously there are plenty of cyclists who are careful and courteous about your safety. That's part of what a bell or \"watch out!\" (generally \"On your left\") is doing for you. And just because you are courteous to them doesn't mean everyone is. Is every driver a douchebag just because some of them crowd cyclists when and where the cyclist has the right to the road? No.",
">\n\nThe difference here is that generally car drivers are going to be held accountable for bad driving. This is in the form of dash cams, ANPR and red light cameras which catch drivers doing bad things and they can receive a fine or points on their licence. Cyclists currently can't be held accountable if they jump red lights or hit a car or pedestrian as there isn't anything that helps identify them. This is a big issue in cities. I live and work in London and see many cyclists jumping red lights and weaving around pedestrians crossing. Cars can't do this as most traffic lights have red light cameras that would catch this.\nDrivers as a collective (including me) are in no way perfect or even held to account 100% of the time, but I believe we need a system for cyclists to be held accountable too",
">\n\nYour way of thinking, while perfectly rational and natural, is outdated. Traffic law enforcement, like any other law enforcement, is less about the enforcement, and more about the prevention. Where I live, speed and red light cameras are clearly marked ahead so that the people who'd normally break the law follow it instead, making punishment unnecessary. \nSame could be done with cyclists. Sure, you could make every cyclist install a license plate, require a \"cycling license\", or install expensive cameras with facial identification software, but how about just make it so cyclists aren't incentivised to break the law in the first place? \nMake more useful cycling infrastructure, and more cyclists will use it. Make that infrastructure intersect with foot and motor traffic more safely and less often, and less collisions will happen.",
">\n\nI completely understand your point. However, a lot of money has gone into my local area for cycling infrastructure that most cyclists are using, but many are still choosing to break the rules as the rules are inconvenient. The infrastructure is not enough, there needs to be an incentive NOT to break the rules.\nIf you take a look at Chiswick High Road in London, England. They have created segregated cycle lanes from the traffic. These cycle lanes have their own lights and crossings to keep them safe from cars. However many cyclists just ignore the lights and just keep going into pedestrians. There is no punishment for them doing this as they can't be tracked. Personally I think every cyclist should have to register their bike (make it free to help encourage this) and then a new form of ANPR used to also catch cyclists in the act",
">\n\nPersonally I'd have no problem registering my bike for free, especially if I could use that same registration if it gets stolen, but registering something as mechanically simple and cheap as a bicycle is, in my opinion difficult if not impossible to do without making the bike mechanically complex and expensive, at which point most people would just switch to scooters.\nI don't live in London, but from what I've heard, by far the biggest threat in the city is still motorized traffic, namely cars and lorries, and so until that problem is no longer a problem, I wouldn't really do anything special about bikes. Maybe put some undercover bike cops near the most dangerous bike path/lane intersections to catch a few offenders and make an example out of them, but that's about it.",
">\n\nMost cars I’ve driven came equipped with brakes and a steering wheel. I don’t see the problem",
">\n\nA common take and a stupid one.\nThere are good and bad drivers, pedestrians, and cyclists. Hating any of them as a group because some of them do bad things is just dumb.",
">\n\nIf you followed the laws and stayed out of the bike lane as a pedestrian there would be no problem.",
">\n\nIf bicyclists followed the laws and stopped ignoring street signs/traffic lights there would be no problem.",
">\n\nDon’t see how this address the problem with pedestrians in bike lanes.",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Drivers pedestrians other cyclists. They're a scourge.",
">\n\nEvery word of this is pure wisdom.",
">\n\nAs a car driver, I too hate cyclists.\nI don't care who has 'right of way'. I'm in a car, you're not. If we collide, regardless of fault, you're the one that dies.\nDo you really want to die on the hill that says \"i can bike on the rode b/c it's legal\"?\nI might be in jail, but you're still dead.\nBikes don't belong on public roads. Unless there's a bike lane - aka, a pathway designed specifically for bikers.\nIt's FAR SAFER to bike on the sidewalk.",
">\n\nBe careful you’ll anger r/fuckcars",
">\n\nI recently got a bike in Japan and there isn't any room on the street to ride my bike. Most people are fine when I'm on the sidewalk, however, the worst ones are groups of 2 or more who try and take up as much space as possible allowing nobody to pass. Same with the people who constantly switch between the left and right side of the sidewalk. It's really annoying to see how little spacial awareness they have.",
">\n\nCyclists on the road don’t have to pass the same test as vehicles on the road, which is why they are so bad. If there was a test in order to cycle on the road then i think it would be alot better",
">\n\nWhy do you hate all cyclists when only some of them are rude/dangerous?",
">\n\nCope hehe",
">\n\nIt's the powered vehicles that kill most pedestrians.\nBut, sure, cyclists blahblah...",
">\n\nAs an occasional cyclist, I don't like you either.",
">\n\nI biked everywhere.....when I was a child. I'm an adult now and have an automobile. They are pretty neat.",
">\n\nWhen I used to have to walk to work I’d walk on the sidewalk and listen to music and one time this guy zipped right by me yelling almost knocking me over and flipped me off?? They act like they don’t have breaks lmao",
">\n\nholy smokes! glad you're ok",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Even cyclists.",
">\n\nAnd here i thought why the f pediatrician hate cyclists"
] |
>
As a cyclist this thread is hilarious
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[
"I road cycled for years, I always followed the street rules. Always. Red light means red light. \nI have so many cycling friends who get into accidents and other conflicts with drivers, and yet they think it’s stupid to stop at a red light. They just don’t connect these two things",
">\n\nMost bikers I encounter are complete idiots. Like I'd be driving normally and out of nowhere comes a biker on a crosswalk in full speed. Now, I appreciate bikers who actually stop and make eye contact with me as I'm driving towards the crosswalk but man, it's either that or the biker almost dies because I have no time to brake.\nAnd what's up with all the bikers going like 5 kmh IN THE MIDDLE of a road when there's a dedicated sidewalk for bikers right next to them? Drives me insane.",
">\n\nIt seems like most bikers because of observation bias.\nIf you follow the rules as you should, you’re unmemorable.\nAs for the sidewalks - its actually less safe on the sidewalk.",
">\n\nInteresting. Dangerous situations are more valuable to remember, and I remember tons of irresponsible bikers. It is in fact observation bias. But I'm always happy to see those who pay close attention to traffic, and I do remeber some of them aswell.",
">\n\nWell the same goes for driving. How many cars do you remember when they haven’t done anything? But you tend to remember the ones who do something dumb",
">\n\nYeah it can be applied to anything really.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist in one of the most bike-dense cities in the world, I hate cyclists too. If I could avoid getting myself hurt, I’d be ramming at least ten of them a day just to teach a lesson about ignoring rules and common sense.",
">\n\nAmsterdam? Copenhagen?",
">\n\nCopenhagen. It’s a wonderful bike city but the people are incredibly self-centered.",
">\n\nI had high expectations from cyclists when I first visited the city, after all it is heralded as a cycling paradise and, well, let’s say it looked a lot more like the rest of the world and mainly because of the personal behavior of cyclists.\nMy local friend justified it, stating that it’s because danish are more temperamental than all other Scandinavians: an explanation that I really didn’t know what to do with…",
">\n\nIf “temperamental” means “a bunch of egotistical [insert unflattering body part]”, he’s right.",
">\n\nYou make it sound like a war zone. I live in Copenhagen and most of the time biking around the city is very pleasant. Except for the food delivery scooters, they can 🤬 off.",
">\n\nI guess it depends on how often and where you’re going. If you have places to be each and every day and want to get there effectively, people ignoring general rules and courtesies of the road are a pain. If you’re one of the types listening to podcasts with a latte in one hand and a phone in the other just trudging along, it’s probably fine.",
">\n\nSame! I love walking. Where I live on popular trails, there are bike lanes, but the cyclists will just ride wherever they. They don’t care and won’t let you know they’re coming. They’ll get pissy if you don’t just automatically know they’re coming up from behind you. If you do much as step foot in the bike lane, they get mad, but have no problems riding side by side outside the bike lane.",
">\n\nSame here! So much for my pleasant walk on the beautiful Trail. They sneak up and when they're almost on top of me, a loud voice yells \"On your left!\" They startle the shit out of me and cause me to jump sky high! 😡",
">\n\nIt’s literally the law to say that. This thread is all about hating them no matter if they follow the law or not.",
">\n\nIs it possible to do that without sneaking up on them and startling the shit out of them by yelling real loud? And then cutting is close to them as you possibly can without hitting them?",
">\n\nHello. \nMy useless comment to this post is here :D\nSo, i work in the accidents department of a big insurance company. My country is very strickt about the road rules, meaning:\nOur company estimates (is this the right word?) that around 82% of accidents involving cyclists, are to blame on the cyclist. Since there are expecific places on the road for you to ride your bike, even if it's not a bike lane.\nI remember a case where 3 dudes were just cycling, outside of town and they were literally on the middle of the road. the place where they were is full of curves and has very little visibility, so they were riding side by side, middle of the road, comes a car, hits not one, but the 3 of them because they scared the person and she just swerved the car.\nThey sued her and us (insurance) 2 times. Lost both and had to pay for all damage done on the car by their own bodys",
">\n\nThis sounds like something that happened near by my home town, are you in Ontario?",
">\n\nno XD portugal",
">\n\nGod its so much worse that it's happened in multiple places.\nIn ours I think the driver killed one of the cyclists, then sued the family for emotional damage",
">\n\nMy biggest gripe about cyclists is that there is always some danger when you encounter them on the road, either as a pedestrian or motorist. Now, part of it isn’t their fault. At least here in the US, not much of the infrastructure is made for bicycles. But cyclists are constantly breaking the rules of the road (or sidewalk) to get where they’re going faster. Blowing red lights, leaving the bike lane to use the sidewalk, splitting lanes. I always clench a little when I approach one, wondering if this is the day I can’t get out of the way.",
">\n\nWe have that same problem, but then a million times worse, because I live in The Netherlands. You probably know about our proud cycling culture (the Amsterdam stereotype). And yes, cyclists here are just as bad as the ones you describe, but there’s a lot more of them here. And oh yeah, traffic laws are almost always in their favor.",
">\n\nI found driving in the towns of the Netherlands so hard. Not just because I was on the wrong side of the road 😉 but because I just wasn’t used to sooo many cyclists coming from all directions, always faster than me and passing on both sides. Even as I was signalling to leave a roundabout at one point about three cyclists rode past on the inside. I really struggled to keep up with them all, which of course means I drove slower and thus even more bikes passed me!",
">\n\nYes that is of course very difficult, however as a Dutchman I’m used to cyclists, so of course we struggle a lot less. But that doesn’t take away from the fact that cyclists do cause a lot of issues because of their careless behavior, and because as drivers we have to accommodate them. That one sided ‘deal’ that we have makes it very difficult to deal with them.\nAll in all I’m happy we have so many cyclists as it’s good for the environment. But the utopian mindset of cyclists being a gift to the world is just stupid. Especially when you consider that mostly Americans who drive on wide open roads with barely any cyclists around are the ones praising cyclists in my country all the time. Also, cyclists annoy the hell out of pedestrians as well, so it’s not just about motorists.",
">\n\nCyclists treat red lights like stop signs and stop signs like yield signs (at best). They’re not allowed on sidewalks but do it anyway. Fuckin hate cyclists.",
">\n\nEverything you said is completely legal in Denver and sidewalks are illegal , but drivers constantly scream at cyclists to ride there",
">\n\nCyclist can roll stop signs and run red lights in Denver? What the fuck?",
">\n\nI’d have no problem if cyclist had respect for other road users. where I live there are cycle lanes, but most cyclists are on the road or pavements, they ignore red lights etc. \nIf you want to cycle please make it’s safe for yourself and others around you.",
">\n\nExactly my thoughts",
">\n\nHonestly, selfish assholes exist everywhere but a selfish asshole on a bicycle does a lot less damage than a selfish asshole in a car. \nEDIT: OP's also downvoting everyone who disagrees with him, just fyi.",
">\n\nAs a pedestrian, I hate everyone who's not a pedestrian... And some pedestrians too.",
">\n\nThere's a reason so many cyclists die each year, they all seem to pick and choose which laws they want to follow. Its always safer to assume they'll do whatever they want and everyone else needs to adapt to them.",
">\n\nAs a driver downtown, I don't worry at all about pedestrians at intersections, I can turn my head and assume they will be maybe five feet closer to my car when I look back, (and I trust they won't sprint towards me when I look away, at their own peril), but bikes, they ride so fast, that in the short time I turn my head to check for oncoming traffic, a bike could materialize right beside / infront me, and I risk hitting them or them hitting the side of my car. And that's even in their designated bike lane, that I have to pass through to clear the intersection. And if I drive into a ped at three miles per hour, they will just hit my hood with their fist and call me a stupid motherfucker, or whatever makes them feel justice was served, but if I bump the bike, it will be a big crash, the bicyclist will be all curled up in a ball on the ground, I'll be the bad guy in the eyes of the law and anyone nearby, and I'll probably be late as fuck to wherever it is I'm trying to go to.",
">\n\nI skateboard so I guess I'm good",
">\n\nJust don’t inconvenience narcissistic car drivers by a few seconds.",
">\n\nI think everyone hates cyclists. Cyclists included.",
">\n\nAs a driver, I hate you both",
">\n\nPedestrians are literally the worst. Anyone who has to walk more than 20 feet a day and not to their car are complete losers, and should be jailed on site.",
">\n\nOK, I think that's a bit extreme. But hey, if you're running for public office I'll vote for you. \nI do have to wonder anytime I see someone that I know has the mental faculties to drive who is walking. Usually assume too many DUI's.",
">\n\nr/fuckcars ripping out their hair rn",
">\n\nNot unpopular.\n Everyone hates cyclists.",
">\n\nI casually cycle in the summer. If I'm on a trail, I'll slow down and ring my bell if I see pedestrians, or stop and dismount if there's a lot of people or they don't notice me. Especially on the narrow trails in this woodlot I sometimes go to. \nThe problem is a lot of cyclists, especially in North America, but perhaps other places, just aren't respectful of others. They demand car drivers \"share the road\", but then ride in huge packs, lane split, don't signal turns, run stop signs and red lights, weave in and out of traffic, boot up busy sidewalks at 15-20mph, refuse to use provided bike lanes, etc. There's like a gross sense of entitlement in the cycling community. Dude, you're still a vehicle. There's rules that apply to you, just like there are for cars and motorcycles. Big problem is difficulty/lack of enforcement. Cops have to catch them in the act. Even then they're slippery devils since they're usually more mobile than a cruiser or beat cop on foot. This is why I support plating bikes to make them easily identifiable.",
">\n\n\nThere's like a gross sense of entitlement in the cycling community. Dude, you're still a vehicle. There's rules that apply to you, just like there are for cars and motorcycles.\n\nThat is the problem right there. They want to be treated equal to car owners, yet they do not abide by traffic rules, hence all the accidents.",
">\n\nAs a driver, I concur.",
">\n\nI hate bikers on trails. They're supposed to stop and let hikers by but they never do. They go by so freakin' fast too. It's like come on now!",
">\n\nAs a mostly former cyclist, I often hated cyclists too. Mostly, because so many cyclist are just competitive asshats that suck the pleasure out of their own bike ride by making everything about speed. Like, heaven forbid they have to slow and yield to anyone.\nOnce, I was riding my bicycle with my young daughter on a bike path in the city. A couple cyclist came up and got all pissy at us, saying we need to be out of the cycle lane because we were going too slow and my 8 year old kid wasn't keeping to a narrow lane. It was so hostile - my kid started crying.\nBut that is just so typical, all the time. I've gotten yelled out a few times when I made a full, foot down stop at a redlight because the cyclist behind me was expecting me to either run the redlight or at least go into the crosswalk and dance around (like they do) until it went green. I remember nearly getting run over by cyclists all the time, and yelled at if I was going too slow.\nThat being said, we need to do 100,000 x more in the US towards making bike paths, protected bike lanes, etc., because cyling is a truly great way to get around and I miss it. I just don't miss the self-centered asshats that dominate the cycling community.",
">\n\nThis!",
">\n\nI’ve nothing against cyclists as a group. I prefer to hate all people who do stupid things whether they’re in cars, on bikes or walking. Went to pick my daughter up tonight and counted six cyclists in the dark wearing all black with no lights at all plus one with a light so weak I didn’t see it until I was nearly past him. Tonight it was dumb cyclists, but tomorrow it might be idiots in cars. Hate the idiots not the method of transportation.",
">\n\nTrue !",
">\n\nOMG YES !! I completely agree. Every time i tried to explain this to a friend, they would always look at me like I am crazy for thinking such a thing. But as I walk for 45 minutes every days, it became a reality you can't ignore... I can't count how many times I nearly got hit by a cyclist, it happens every other week. I am starting to think that cyclists should have to go through a \"course\" to learn the basics of using the streets x)\n(Sorry for mistakes, not native here 'x) )",
">\n\nThis is my story lol..",
">\n\nYes, and it also is my personal experience, which is why I posted this..?",
">\n\nYes I totally agree. Just saying \"that's my life\" :) happening in Brussels tho",
">\n\nMy bad x) welp France here, it amazes me in a really bad way how this seems to be such a common phenomenon literaly EVERYWHERE",
">\n\nJ'ai roulé en vélo à Paris et laisse tomber l'enfer que c'était. J'avais l'impression d'avancer avec des oies qui insultaient tout le monde. BAa bAAA BAaaAa !!! \nLe problème c'est que plus les gens sont stressés (même les piétons... Genre dans le metro) plus ils se haïssent et ce matin j'avais la haine sur les vélos.. en vrai j'ai la haine sur tous les citadins haha",
">\n\nas a cyclist I hate everyone",
">\n\nSame, I see posts like this where people tell us to ride on the sidewalk when it’s illegal. \nThey assume we don’t walk anywhere, drive, etc like we are essentially subhuman for doing exercise.\nThey tell us to ride closer to the right side of the road so we get hit by a car door. \nThey’re mad that we give a verbal signal that we’re coming up on the left even though that’s the law. \nnow that I’m in Colorado I’m getting yelled at for the Idaho stop, which is completely legal. We yield to stop signs and temporarily stop at red light only till it’s clear. It’s all to REDUCE CAR TRAFFIC.\nSo far I’ve had family members die from hit and runs and drunk drivers, but somehow cyclists are the most dangerous thing on the road today.\nWhat is this really about?",
">\n\nI loathe cyclists. Selfish, entitled lycra lunatics.",
">\n\nBe honest, do you realize that it's possible to ride a bicycle and not be selfish, or entitled, or a lunatic, or not wear lycra?",
">\n\nThis thread is such a circlejerk, it's ridiculous.",
">\n\nThat's what I'm here for",
">\n\nIt's because cycling isn't regulated like motor vehicles are but they still get on the roads unlike pedestrians. So they don't have knowledge on the rules of the road that drivers have.\nThere's also some sort of hypocrisy they have where they believe drivers should give way to them because bikes are more vulnerable than cars while expecting pedestrians to give way to them because they're moving faster.",
">\n\n\nSo they don't have knowledge on the rules of the road\n\nPlenty do. Many cyclists also are automobilists. They just feel like they're exempted from respecting trafic rules because it's tiring to stop and go on a bike and they're slower an lighter than cars.",
">\n\nSure you got hit by a truck, but at least you managed to save yourself a little time and avoid waiting for a few seconds. Is what I'd say if they didn't then end up in the hospital",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists, as it should be.",
">\n\nCyclists shouldn’t be on sidewalks",
">\n\nI also cringe a lot when I see the international Reddit community constantly praise us Dutch people for our biking culture. People have no idea how many traffic accidents we get that could have been avoided if we didn’t have cyclists EVERYWHERE who are barely aware of the traffic rules that also apply to them.\nPeople have no idea about how cyclists are almost always right according to our traffic laws, which makes them much more reckless. They cause millions of dollars of damage to cars (and pedestrians) each year, and barely ever face consequences for their irresponsible and reckless behavior in traffic.\nPeople don’t see how cyclists often block traffic because they like to cycle next to each other in pairs, and if you honk they get angry and sometimes even aggressive and try to break your side mirror if they feel like it.\nMany intersections have bicycle lanes that you need to check when making a turn when driving, even though the intersection is already super busy with lots of cars. And guess what, cyclists still ride around fast and recklessly and making sure you don’t hit another car, cyclist AND pedestrian is all the job of one single driver.\nSo all in all, people from countries where driving is a relatively easy and chill thing to do, praise cycling culture in other countries. Try to drive here in busy traffic with thousands of cars AND (RECKLESS) CYCLISTS on the road and then tell me what it’s like.",
">\n\nIt would be much easier to sympathize with cars drivers if they did not need like 60% of the entire transit space leaving cyclists and pedestrians very little.\n\neven though the intersection is already super busy with lots of cars\n\nOfc, because cars are so large and need so much space.",
">\n\nI get that, but why is that my fault? I don’t do the city planning. Besides, cars are much larger than bicycles, so doesn’t it make sense there’s more space needed for cars than for bicycles?\nBut even then, if you don’t want to have any sympathy for motorists, because city planners give them more space than others, that’s just weird. It’s not the motorist’s fault.",
">\n\n\ndoesn’t it make sense there’s more space needed for cars than for bicycles?\n\nWhy a valuable and scarce resource such as the public space in cities should be used predominantly to benefit car users while barring everyone else? \nI just find it much harder to sympathize with the privileged group.",
">\n\nBecause people need to be able to go from A to B?",
">\n\nSo do pedestrians/public transport users/cyclists. But they don't require so much space per person.",
">\n\nWell in The Netherlands public transportation takes up an enormous amount of space and cyclists have their own dedicated lanes almost everywhere. Also motorists have to give public transportation space as we usually have to stop for trams and buses to pass, according to traffic rules. Guess who doesn’t often follow those rules: cyclists.\nHowever, public transportation itself is super busy and unbelievably expensive in The Netherlands. It costs more than 20 Euros to travel ~70 kilometers. That’s why a lot of people still prefer to have a car, and cars simply need infrastructure.\nSo I don’t really get your point. Cars, bicycles and public transportation all get a fair portion of the space that’s available.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist, i hate pedestrians. Here in Germany, there is bike lanes, one part for bikes and one for pedestrians on traffic lights... etc. But the pedestrians just ignore them, form \"walls\" of people blocking the bike lane, dont look while crossing the bike lane. Even cars repect us more than you.",
">\n\nThis I understand. Experienced the same in Denmark",
">\n\nClaaaaaarksoooooonnnnn",
">\n\nIdk about other places but here cyclists are constantly breaking the law and never getting ticketed for it. It makes no sense to me. I don’t think it’d make a huge difference but I do think some cyclists would think twice about disregarding the rules if those rules were actually enforced.",
">\n\nI get the sentiment. My feeling is the root cause is they don’t have their own infrastructure. Cars and peds do. So cyclists are always forced into a non ideal path. \nI’m aware they have rights to the road but cars and bikes really struggle to share an infrastructure clearly made for cars. \nSo if we invest in cycling infrastructure everyone would probably be happier.",
">\n\ndoubt it. In my city there is an asphalt bike path for miles that is like 8 feet wide. Smooth. No stop signs. Do they use it? nope they get their collective ass out on the street and I honestly don't have a clue why.\nIt defies logic. Safter, smooth, not cars/trunks, etc. Here they are out on the street just fiddle farting down a 45 mph road like they own it with a bike path 15 feet away with no one on it. The last guy I asked said \"It is my road as well you know\" that I ran up on while I was at a crossing while riding on the path myself. I just gave up trying to understand. Someone dies on that road every couple of months from bike or pedestrian strike with a vehicle. It was the whole reason they built the path....",
">\n\nWell in my experience there are 2 thing going on there.\na) Often bikers will avoid the path because peds often share or walk across those paths and their speed is closer to that of a car than a ped or \nb) If they are commuting...the path likely isn't going exactly where they need to.\nAs to your specific scenario I don't doubt there are bikers that are hard headed and stubborn. I know a few of those. But generally I do bikers using the infrastructure where we have built it.",
">\n\nThere's an accident here involving @ car running over a cyclist who crossed a red traffic light. And guess who take the blame?",
">\n\nLaughs in being dutch",
">\n\nIt is regrettable that a handful of asshole cyclists ruins everyone’s opinion of us. It really undermines the support needed to improve infrastructure for cycling. \nIf it is any help, when i ring my bell, I am doing so to avoid the alternatives of either yelling a warning or startling people. I normally exit the path and pass on the grass. I would say that most cyclist are the same. I don’t want you to get out of the way, I want you to know I am there. \nBut it only takes a couple assholes that think they own the path or the street. I have a cousin like this and it is difficult to convince him his is wrong and is putting himself and others in danger.",
">\n\nI think the a-holes are people that are only on a bike because it's the easiest thing for them, living where they do. You and those like you are on the bike because you love cycling.",
">\n\nI live in Portland, OR, and the cyclists here are so fucking rude and entitled.",
">\n\nI live in not-Portland OR and visited once. I biked down the road. Could not believe how nice everyone was to me. Probably because they could tell I’m an outsider.",
">\n\nI meant how they treat everyone else who isn't on a bike, tbh.",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists and it's for a simple reason. They think they can do whatever the hell they want. They switch between a pedestrian, a cyclist and a vehicle deciding on the fly whatever rules they feel like following with no accountability. \nOne minute they are skipping traffic, then they are deciding to cross at a crosswalk instead of following traffic. And the sidewalks are bike lanes if that's more convenient.",
">\n\nI just get annoyed because they will ride double wide on a tight street, forcing you to go 60mph in a 45, on the opposite side of traffic, risking a head on collision. And yea, you have to do that, because otherwise cars behind you will start driving aggressive as well as the fact that your expecting all the cars to go at a bikes speed on the road.",
">\n\nThat's because every country except for the Netherlands and Denmark have shit bicycle infrastructure.",
">\n\nI civilised countries we have cycling paths and cycling on the street is also possible as drivers aren't insane. So this seems rather like a problem of poor urban planning than cyclists in general.",
">\n\nWhere I live the cyclists just refuse to take the bikelane and either block the traffic because the rather use the street or they decide to use the pedestrian side of the sidewalk. The frickin bikelane is as big as the pedestrian one. There is no excuse not to use it and they still won't! One of them almost hit me if I hadn't dodge it. If the cyclist only drove a few inches to the left there would have been a bikelane and it wouldn't happened. Of course the person didn't apologize and just cursed at me.",
">\n\nBike gutters are awful and less safe than taking the lane. Assholes park in the bike lanes ALL THE TIME. Plus no one ever looks behind them when getting out pf their car so getting smacked by a door is a real danger. Drivers are entitled but it’s not their fault it’s the way we’ve built society to allow and expect them to be.\nETA: next time you’re driving around take a count how many people you see pulled over or parked in a bike gutter.",
">\n\nCompletely agree - I was ran over almost 3 times in Berlin. \nAnd every single time I checked before crossing - but they just suddenly spawned right in the way",
">\n\nDid you cross at a designated crosswalk? As a cyclist the amount of times people just randomly meander across an active street instead of going to the zebra/lollipop crossing, and then get angry at me when I have to swerve out the way/ brake is comical.",
">\n\nMan, y'all are sad people. \n\"Get off the road!\" Okay, now we are on the sidewalk. \n\"Get off the sidewalk!\" Back in the road again. \n\"They need to ring their bells so we know they're coming! Btw I hate it when they ring their bells so I know they're coming.\"",
">\n\nI hate cyclists like that. I don’t have a car so my bike is my main source of transportation and I don’t ride like that. So far, from what I’ve noticed in my area, I’m the only one that follows the damn rules in my city xD",
">\n\nNo matter where you are and who you are… driver or walker, scooter or flyer… we ALL hate cyclists.",
">\n\nI feel ya. The only thing I hate more than cyclists is electric scooters.",
">\n\nCompletely agree! A cycling license (similar to driving) should be required. Far too many cyclist who doesn’t know (and those who don’t just give a F) about traffic rules.",
">\n\nI completely agree! Cyclists have a lot of rights on the roads, and are very vocal about them, but think they can do whatever the fuck they want at roundabouts and pedestrian crossings.",
">\n\nIt just fascinates me how anyone can walk or drive through a city and genuinely think that bicycles are the problem. Look around you at every turn there are cars jamming the roads. Parked blocking things. Blocking pavements. Driving aggressively. Speeding. Failing to stop. Polluting the air. If they hit you, you are seriously injured or dead. This happens in the thousands. The city absolutely revolves around them.",
">\n\nYou are 100% right. Except I didn't say bicycles are the problem. I said i hate them. I said fuck cars too. I also said bicycles are one of the best alternative for trafic jam in cities.\nCities in Europe weren't made for cars nor bikes. So the problem is the fucking lazy greedy people who decide how to spend our tax money. The problem is people thinking they are all alone on the street. The problem is how stressed everybody is and how it become dangerous.\nNot because I hate how cyclists take revenge from drivers bullies to pedestrians makes me hate a transportation model itself.",
">\n\nIt just seems odd that people can really harp on about cyclists when they are such a trivial issue. Posts like this can get hundreds of replies. People tend to make excuses about cars.",
">\n\nYou just insulted a whole country.",
">\n\nThe Netherlands? It's ok",
">\n\nOk",
">\n\nI judge the actions of the individual not the mode of transport. I find it produces more accurate results.",
">\n\nApparently \"individuals alone are responsible for their own actions\" is the real unpopular opinion here.",
">\n\nIndeed 😀",
">\n\nAs a car driver I also hate cyclists. Saw one on a 45mph the other day despite there being a sidewalk AND a bikelane",
">\n\n45 mph isn't a speed for bike lane or sidewalk. Street is",
">\n\nas a cyclist, I hate pedestrians.\nMy city put in these nice protected bicycle lanes so bikes don't have to ride inches from cars, and boy don't those pedestrians just LOVE using the bike lane as a queuing up spot for the crosswalks. it's just so nice and convenient to get 5 more feet closer to your goal, isn't it? Those bicycles can stop and wait...and feel free to swear at them like THEY are the ones in the wrong.\nBicycles and pedestrians are natural enemies, that's never going to change. There can be only one.",
">\n\nLET'S END THIS NOW !!!!!",
">\n\nanyplace but Holy Ground.",
">\n\ndon't blame all bicyclists for the shitty ones.\nthat would be like saying every person who drives a car is an asshole. or every person who walks on the sidewalk is an asshole.\nsome people are good at getting around. other people are jerks. don't blame everyone for the actions of a small subset of people.",
">\n\nI mean, isn’t that the sentiment over that the popular sub r/fuckcars? The generalization is already being perpetuated from cyclists and “urbanists” in their war against cars.",
">\n\nNot really. That sub mostly hates the focus on cars when designing infrastructure, as well as the forced dependency on cars in our modern world. Not individual drivers.",
">\n\nSure about that? It’s mostly just a bitch-fest about driver errors to further their political agenda.",
">\n\nYea, I'm pretty sure.",
">\n\nReally weird way to get there if that’s the case. Alienating a large portion of the population (car drivers, car riders, people that depend on vehicles for the delivery of goods and services) is not how you get them on your side.",
">\n\nI don't think that's their goal in the first place. It's just a reddit sub.",
">\n\nEspecially when they have a stupid fucking bell and say \"on the left\" then proceed to be on the right side of the trail running into you",
">\n\nHahahha \"is he coming on the left or should i go on the lef...\" BANG!!",
">\n\nGF lives in a college town. It’s as if there’s some kinda fuckin’ death wish among the student cycling population",
">\n\nAs a [insert anyone, including cyclist], I hate cyclists.",
">\n\nPeople don't wanna hear it when it comes from automobilists because \"gngn cars are more dangerous and drivers are entitled\" but reality is cyclists are just the worst. Whether I'm on foot, driving a car, or riding a bicycle myself, cyclists are always always the ones being absolute public hazards. Heck, when I'm on my bike and stop at the stop sign on a cycle lane to let the cars go, they look at me as if I'm jesus or something. They even try to let me pass first because of how used they are to cyclists who just can't be bothered to respect the damn stop sign.",
">\n\nThe problem isn't the cyclists here, it's the lacking infrastructure.",
">\n\nWe shouldn't have to build infrastructure so people can partake in recreation. I find that comment extremely arrogant. Why on earth do cyclists deserve to have their recreation glorified and catered to??",
">\n\nRecreation? Ah yes, cycling is only for recreation.",
">\n\nWell, where I live that I'd the ONLY purpose. I'm 17 miles from any city municipality. Nobody is biking here to go to the grocery store or work.",
">\n\nNot everything is about you personally.",
">\n\nTo me, it is, and should be. My concern is around how cyclists inconvenience me while I'm trying to be a productive member of society. I feel like that's a fair critique.",
">\n\nYou are mad that cyclists inconvenience you yet you reject dedicated infrastructure as a solution. Do you think cyclists should be banned off the road completely?",
">\n\nThe real issue here is lacking cycling infrastructure.",
">\n\nDefinitely a major issue.\nBut part of the issue is definitely cyclists who prioritize their own speed over the safety and welfare of everyone around them. It's like they are all BMW drivers, deep down, and just don't want to yield to or slow down for anyone.",
">\n\nI'm sure there are, assholes exist in all vehicle types.",
">\n\nCyclists know thar neither the pavement nor the road are theirs because motorists and pedestrians like you are both screaming at them all the time. And I swear you'd be angrier if they didn't give a polite warning that they're coming toward you. \nCyclists who breeze through crossings instead of stopping are a minority, much like cyclists are a minority in general, and you can't judge an entire group that aren't adequately represented",
">\n\nFuck traveling in general",
">\n\nYa. Where are our transporters! \nSorry had to go full nerd.",
">\n\nI see posts like this constantly. It blows my mind people can just choose one thing that is so insignificant to scapegoat. \nThey assume people on bikes don’t also walk, drive, etc like we are essentially subhuman for doing exercise / running errands in this way because they are inconvenienced for a few seconds. You realize we are human like you , right?\nPeople tell us to ride bicycles on the sidewalk when it’s illegal while others say not too. It’s usually against the law.\nThey tell us to ride closer to the right side of the road , so we get hit by a car door and yelled at again. \nThey’re mad that we give a verbal signal that we’re coming up on the left even though that’s the law. \nNow that I’m in Colorado I’m getting yelled at for the Idaho stop, which is completely legal. We yield to stop signs and temporarily stop at red lights only if it’s clear. It’s all to REDUCE CAR TRAFFIC. \nKeep in mind we are riding bicycles which in its own right REDUCES CAR TRAFFIC. \n80% of car trips are within 3 miles from your house. Everyone that rides a bike keeps you from being stuck behind them in traffic for longer then the 20 seconds you’re currently inconvenienced. It’s also mean parking closer to the front door of a shop. \nSo far I’ve had family members die from hit and runs and drunk drivers, but somehow cyclists are the most dangerous thing on the road today?! It’s not adding up.\nWhat is this really about?",
">\n\nI'm sorry for your losses. I never said bikers are the most dangerous things on the road. Saying this would be stupid. The problem in my city is the lack of respect from cyclists to pedestrians in a general way. I'm not even talking about drivers against EVERYTHING ON THE STREET.",
">\n\nI go out of my way to be respectful to everybody, and I’ve had nothing but kindness and respect from other cyclists .\nYou wanna blame everybody on a bicycle for all your problems when it’s really just about a few people who disrespected you. \nCyclists are drivers, walkers, etc. do they just jump on a bicycle and instantly become disrespectful?\nStill doesn’t make any logical sense.",
">\n\nDude you just don't get it.. i understand biking is your life.. but come on.\nI use to bike 40km per day to work. \nI don't have problems with people jumping on bikes. I simply hate the ones that are disrespectful.\nIs it too hard to understand? Just me venting coz I feel like a lot of bikers think they are on top of the citizen pyramid? \nI'm not venting about the system here, nor about cars.. just about some (yes some) bikers.\nAnd please there is no need to beg for upvotes on fuckcars how old are you?",
">\n\nI bet your fat.",
">\n\nOf course I fart !",
">\n\nTo you yours and to mine mine; I hate car users and their ilk who are filled with wonton waste and hate for all else who dare travel near them. I stop at all lights, halt for all signs, use a mirror, lights, and hand signals, pull over for cars coming my way so long as there is any room, and use what little biking infrastructure is available to me.\nMy taxes are waste and paid in folly for they assuredly go in portion to your reckless use of a powerful machine and not to my own reckless use of a small self-propelled stick on two wheels to separate lanes and keep them maintained. No, no, I must settle for the gutter and cry glee for that and be ashamed to move to the sidewalk when it suddenly ends and continues a block later down the road. \nFuck your car, your roads, and your selfish desire to pave the world and create cities with 60% of their coverage dedicated to driving a car, parking a car, and separating the world into places for cars and otherwise. You who drive faster and faster, in bigger and bigger cars. I loath you as you loath mine.",
">\n\nI wouldn’t hate cyclists if they didn’t act like road laws don’t apply to em in the city where I live. I’ve seen cyclists not even stop at red lights even with an almost full intersection, and ride the wrong way down one ways.\nEdit: I do wish the city where I live had more bike lanes but yeah.",
">\n\nIf you're going to hate someone, maybe hate the people actually doing those things.\nIf I see someone on a bike rush through a short break on a red light in an otherwise busy intersection, I shake my head and think they are an idiot. I think this while waiting for the light to turn green on my bike.\nSimilarly, when a car illegally stops in a bike lane (which happens ALL THE TIME by the way), I don't turn around and blame the cars moving along legally in the adjacent lane.",
">\n\nPedestrian are the worst.\nWhen i started using bicicle I was very polite: brake, ring, ask for permission. And what the large amount of people do? Ignore u, watch u in the eyes and take a step in the fucking middle of the trail (many many times! for real!), shout at you just because u exist. So.... At some point is fuck you all, I'm coming go out of the way. That's it",
">\n\n\nI will never drive nor park on a bike lane, always look into the mirror to be careful of one of you monkeys. So why can't you be careful when us peasants are walking?\n\nThis is dumb. Obviously there are plenty of cyclists who are careful and courteous about your safety. That's part of what a bell or \"watch out!\" (generally \"On your left\") is doing for you. And just because you are courteous to them doesn't mean everyone is. Is every driver a douchebag just because some of them crowd cyclists when and where the cyclist has the right to the road? No.",
">\n\nThe difference here is that generally car drivers are going to be held accountable for bad driving. This is in the form of dash cams, ANPR and red light cameras which catch drivers doing bad things and they can receive a fine or points on their licence. Cyclists currently can't be held accountable if they jump red lights or hit a car or pedestrian as there isn't anything that helps identify them. This is a big issue in cities. I live and work in London and see many cyclists jumping red lights and weaving around pedestrians crossing. Cars can't do this as most traffic lights have red light cameras that would catch this.\nDrivers as a collective (including me) are in no way perfect or even held to account 100% of the time, but I believe we need a system for cyclists to be held accountable too",
">\n\nYour way of thinking, while perfectly rational and natural, is outdated. Traffic law enforcement, like any other law enforcement, is less about the enforcement, and more about the prevention. Where I live, speed and red light cameras are clearly marked ahead so that the people who'd normally break the law follow it instead, making punishment unnecessary. \nSame could be done with cyclists. Sure, you could make every cyclist install a license plate, require a \"cycling license\", or install expensive cameras with facial identification software, but how about just make it so cyclists aren't incentivised to break the law in the first place? \nMake more useful cycling infrastructure, and more cyclists will use it. Make that infrastructure intersect with foot and motor traffic more safely and less often, and less collisions will happen.",
">\n\nI completely understand your point. However, a lot of money has gone into my local area for cycling infrastructure that most cyclists are using, but many are still choosing to break the rules as the rules are inconvenient. The infrastructure is not enough, there needs to be an incentive NOT to break the rules.\nIf you take a look at Chiswick High Road in London, England. They have created segregated cycle lanes from the traffic. These cycle lanes have their own lights and crossings to keep them safe from cars. However many cyclists just ignore the lights and just keep going into pedestrians. There is no punishment for them doing this as they can't be tracked. Personally I think every cyclist should have to register their bike (make it free to help encourage this) and then a new form of ANPR used to also catch cyclists in the act",
">\n\nPersonally I'd have no problem registering my bike for free, especially if I could use that same registration if it gets stolen, but registering something as mechanically simple and cheap as a bicycle is, in my opinion difficult if not impossible to do without making the bike mechanically complex and expensive, at which point most people would just switch to scooters.\nI don't live in London, but from what I've heard, by far the biggest threat in the city is still motorized traffic, namely cars and lorries, and so until that problem is no longer a problem, I wouldn't really do anything special about bikes. Maybe put some undercover bike cops near the most dangerous bike path/lane intersections to catch a few offenders and make an example out of them, but that's about it.",
">\n\nMost cars I’ve driven came equipped with brakes and a steering wheel. I don’t see the problem",
">\n\nA common take and a stupid one.\nThere are good and bad drivers, pedestrians, and cyclists. Hating any of them as a group because some of them do bad things is just dumb.",
">\n\nIf you followed the laws and stayed out of the bike lane as a pedestrian there would be no problem.",
">\n\nIf bicyclists followed the laws and stopped ignoring street signs/traffic lights there would be no problem.",
">\n\nDon’t see how this address the problem with pedestrians in bike lanes.",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Drivers pedestrians other cyclists. They're a scourge.",
">\n\nEvery word of this is pure wisdom.",
">\n\nAs a car driver, I too hate cyclists.\nI don't care who has 'right of way'. I'm in a car, you're not. If we collide, regardless of fault, you're the one that dies.\nDo you really want to die on the hill that says \"i can bike on the rode b/c it's legal\"?\nI might be in jail, but you're still dead.\nBikes don't belong on public roads. Unless there's a bike lane - aka, a pathway designed specifically for bikers.\nIt's FAR SAFER to bike on the sidewalk.",
">\n\nBe careful you’ll anger r/fuckcars",
">\n\nI recently got a bike in Japan and there isn't any room on the street to ride my bike. Most people are fine when I'm on the sidewalk, however, the worst ones are groups of 2 or more who try and take up as much space as possible allowing nobody to pass. Same with the people who constantly switch between the left and right side of the sidewalk. It's really annoying to see how little spacial awareness they have.",
">\n\nCyclists on the road don’t have to pass the same test as vehicles on the road, which is why they are so bad. If there was a test in order to cycle on the road then i think it would be alot better",
">\n\nWhy do you hate all cyclists when only some of them are rude/dangerous?",
">\n\nCope hehe",
">\n\nIt's the powered vehicles that kill most pedestrians.\nBut, sure, cyclists blahblah...",
">\n\nAs an occasional cyclist, I don't like you either.",
">\n\nI biked everywhere.....when I was a child. I'm an adult now and have an automobile. They are pretty neat.",
">\n\nWhen I used to have to walk to work I’d walk on the sidewalk and listen to music and one time this guy zipped right by me yelling almost knocking me over and flipped me off?? They act like they don’t have breaks lmao",
">\n\nholy smokes! glad you're ok",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Even cyclists.",
">\n\nAnd here i thought why the f pediatrician hate cyclists",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Even other cyclists."
] |
>
Anyone got recommendations for how to be a nice, considerate cyclist besides being careful and non-entitled? I plan on starting when it gets warm outside.
|
[
"I road cycled for years, I always followed the street rules. Always. Red light means red light. \nI have so many cycling friends who get into accidents and other conflicts with drivers, and yet they think it’s stupid to stop at a red light. They just don’t connect these two things",
">\n\nMost bikers I encounter are complete idiots. Like I'd be driving normally and out of nowhere comes a biker on a crosswalk in full speed. Now, I appreciate bikers who actually stop and make eye contact with me as I'm driving towards the crosswalk but man, it's either that or the biker almost dies because I have no time to brake.\nAnd what's up with all the bikers going like 5 kmh IN THE MIDDLE of a road when there's a dedicated sidewalk for bikers right next to them? Drives me insane.",
">\n\nIt seems like most bikers because of observation bias.\nIf you follow the rules as you should, you’re unmemorable.\nAs for the sidewalks - its actually less safe on the sidewalk.",
">\n\nInteresting. Dangerous situations are more valuable to remember, and I remember tons of irresponsible bikers. It is in fact observation bias. But I'm always happy to see those who pay close attention to traffic, and I do remeber some of them aswell.",
">\n\nWell the same goes for driving. How many cars do you remember when they haven’t done anything? But you tend to remember the ones who do something dumb",
">\n\nYeah it can be applied to anything really.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist in one of the most bike-dense cities in the world, I hate cyclists too. If I could avoid getting myself hurt, I’d be ramming at least ten of them a day just to teach a lesson about ignoring rules and common sense.",
">\n\nAmsterdam? Copenhagen?",
">\n\nCopenhagen. It’s a wonderful bike city but the people are incredibly self-centered.",
">\n\nI had high expectations from cyclists when I first visited the city, after all it is heralded as a cycling paradise and, well, let’s say it looked a lot more like the rest of the world and mainly because of the personal behavior of cyclists.\nMy local friend justified it, stating that it’s because danish are more temperamental than all other Scandinavians: an explanation that I really didn’t know what to do with…",
">\n\nIf “temperamental” means “a bunch of egotistical [insert unflattering body part]”, he’s right.",
">\n\nYou make it sound like a war zone. I live in Copenhagen and most of the time biking around the city is very pleasant. Except for the food delivery scooters, they can 🤬 off.",
">\n\nI guess it depends on how often and where you’re going. If you have places to be each and every day and want to get there effectively, people ignoring general rules and courtesies of the road are a pain. If you’re one of the types listening to podcasts with a latte in one hand and a phone in the other just trudging along, it’s probably fine.",
">\n\nSame! I love walking. Where I live on popular trails, there are bike lanes, but the cyclists will just ride wherever they. They don’t care and won’t let you know they’re coming. They’ll get pissy if you don’t just automatically know they’re coming up from behind you. If you do much as step foot in the bike lane, they get mad, but have no problems riding side by side outside the bike lane.",
">\n\nSame here! So much for my pleasant walk on the beautiful Trail. They sneak up and when they're almost on top of me, a loud voice yells \"On your left!\" They startle the shit out of me and cause me to jump sky high! 😡",
">\n\nIt’s literally the law to say that. This thread is all about hating them no matter if they follow the law or not.",
">\n\nIs it possible to do that without sneaking up on them and startling the shit out of them by yelling real loud? And then cutting is close to them as you possibly can without hitting them?",
">\n\nHello. \nMy useless comment to this post is here :D\nSo, i work in the accidents department of a big insurance company. My country is very strickt about the road rules, meaning:\nOur company estimates (is this the right word?) that around 82% of accidents involving cyclists, are to blame on the cyclist. Since there are expecific places on the road for you to ride your bike, even if it's not a bike lane.\nI remember a case where 3 dudes were just cycling, outside of town and they were literally on the middle of the road. the place where they were is full of curves and has very little visibility, so they were riding side by side, middle of the road, comes a car, hits not one, but the 3 of them because they scared the person and she just swerved the car.\nThey sued her and us (insurance) 2 times. Lost both and had to pay for all damage done on the car by their own bodys",
">\n\nThis sounds like something that happened near by my home town, are you in Ontario?",
">\n\nno XD portugal",
">\n\nGod its so much worse that it's happened in multiple places.\nIn ours I think the driver killed one of the cyclists, then sued the family for emotional damage",
">\n\nMy biggest gripe about cyclists is that there is always some danger when you encounter them on the road, either as a pedestrian or motorist. Now, part of it isn’t their fault. At least here in the US, not much of the infrastructure is made for bicycles. But cyclists are constantly breaking the rules of the road (or sidewalk) to get where they’re going faster. Blowing red lights, leaving the bike lane to use the sidewalk, splitting lanes. I always clench a little when I approach one, wondering if this is the day I can’t get out of the way.",
">\n\nWe have that same problem, but then a million times worse, because I live in The Netherlands. You probably know about our proud cycling culture (the Amsterdam stereotype). And yes, cyclists here are just as bad as the ones you describe, but there’s a lot more of them here. And oh yeah, traffic laws are almost always in their favor.",
">\n\nI found driving in the towns of the Netherlands so hard. Not just because I was on the wrong side of the road 😉 but because I just wasn’t used to sooo many cyclists coming from all directions, always faster than me and passing on both sides. Even as I was signalling to leave a roundabout at one point about three cyclists rode past on the inside. I really struggled to keep up with them all, which of course means I drove slower and thus even more bikes passed me!",
">\n\nYes that is of course very difficult, however as a Dutchman I’m used to cyclists, so of course we struggle a lot less. But that doesn’t take away from the fact that cyclists do cause a lot of issues because of their careless behavior, and because as drivers we have to accommodate them. That one sided ‘deal’ that we have makes it very difficult to deal with them.\nAll in all I’m happy we have so many cyclists as it’s good for the environment. But the utopian mindset of cyclists being a gift to the world is just stupid. Especially when you consider that mostly Americans who drive on wide open roads with barely any cyclists around are the ones praising cyclists in my country all the time. Also, cyclists annoy the hell out of pedestrians as well, so it’s not just about motorists.",
">\n\nCyclists treat red lights like stop signs and stop signs like yield signs (at best). They’re not allowed on sidewalks but do it anyway. Fuckin hate cyclists.",
">\n\nEverything you said is completely legal in Denver and sidewalks are illegal , but drivers constantly scream at cyclists to ride there",
">\n\nCyclist can roll stop signs and run red lights in Denver? What the fuck?",
">\n\nI’d have no problem if cyclist had respect for other road users. where I live there are cycle lanes, but most cyclists are on the road or pavements, they ignore red lights etc. \nIf you want to cycle please make it’s safe for yourself and others around you.",
">\n\nExactly my thoughts",
">\n\nHonestly, selfish assholes exist everywhere but a selfish asshole on a bicycle does a lot less damage than a selfish asshole in a car. \nEDIT: OP's also downvoting everyone who disagrees with him, just fyi.",
">\n\nAs a pedestrian, I hate everyone who's not a pedestrian... And some pedestrians too.",
">\n\nThere's a reason so many cyclists die each year, they all seem to pick and choose which laws they want to follow. Its always safer to assume they'll do whatever they want and everyone else needs to adapt to them.",
">\n\nAs a driver downtown, I don't worry at all about pedestrians at intersections, I can turn my head and assume they will be maybe five feet closer to my car when I look back, (and I trust they won't sprint towards me when I look away, at their own peril), but bikes, they ride so fast, that in the short time I turn my head to check for oncoming traffic, a bike could materialize right beside / infront me, and I risk hitting them or them hitting the side of my car. And that's even in their designated bike lane, that I have to pass through to clear the intersection. And if I drive into a ped at three miles per hour, they will just hit my hood with their fist and call me a stupid motherfucker, or whatever makes them feel justice was served, but if I bump the bike, it will be a big crash, the bicyclist will be all curled up in a ball on the ground, I'll be the bad guy in the eyes of the law and anyone nearby, and I'll probably be late as fuck to wherever it is I'm trying to go to.",
">\n\nI skateboard so I guess I'm good",
">\n\nJust don’t inconvenience narcissistic car drivers by a few seconds.",
">\n\nI think everyone hates cyclists. Cyclists included.",
">\n\nAs a driver, I hate you both",
">\n\nPedestrians are literally the worst. Anyone who has to walk more than 20 feet a day and not to their car are complete losers, and should be jailed on site.",
">\n\nOK, I think that's a bit extreme. But hey, if you're running for public office I'll vote for you. \nI do have to wonder anytime I see someone that I know has the mental faculties to drive who is walking. Usually assume too many DUI's.",
">\n\nr/fuckcars ripping out their hair rn",
">\n\nNot unpopular.\n Everyone hates cyclists.",
">\n\nI casually cycle in the summer. If I'm on a trail, I'll slow down and ring my bell if I see pedestrians, or stop and dismount if there's a lot of people or they don't notice me. Especially on the narrow trails in this woodlot I sometimes go to. \nThe problem is a lot of cyclists, especially in North America, but perhaps other places, just aren't respectful of others. They demand car drivers \"share the road\", but then ride in huge packs, lane split, don't signal turns, run stop signs and red lights, weave in and out of traffic, boot up busy sidewalks at 15-20mph, refuse to use provided bike lanes, etc. There's like a gross sense of entitlement in the cycling community. Dude, you're still a vehicle. There's rules that apply to you, just like there are for cars and motorcycles. Big problem is difficulty/lack of enforcement. Cops have to catch them in the act. Even then they're slippery devils since they're usually more mobile than a cruiser or beat cop on foot. This is why I support plating bikes to make them easily identifiable.",
">\n\n\nThere's like a gross sense of entitlement in the cycling community. Dude, you're still a vehicle. There's rules that apply to you, just like there are for cars and motorcycles.\n\nThat is the problem right there. They want to be treated equal to car owners, yet they do not abide by traffic rules, hence all the accidents.",
">\n\nAs a driver, I concur.",
">\n\nI hate bikers on trails. They're supposed to stop and let hikers by but they never do. They go by so freakin' fast too. It's like come on now!",
">\n\nAs a mostly former cyclist, I often hated cyclists too. Mostly, because so many cyclist are just competitive asshats that suck the pleasure out of their own bike ride by making everything about speed. Like, heaven forbid they have to slow and yield to anyone.\nOnce, I was riding my bicycle with my young daughter on a bike path in the city. A couple cyclist came up and got all pissy at us, saying we need to be out of the cycle lane because we were going too slow and my 8 year old kid wasn't keeping to a narrow lane. It was so hostile - my kid started crying.\nBut that is just so typical, all the time. I've gotten yelled out a few times when I made a full, foot down stop at a redlight because the cyclist behind me was expecting me to either run the redlight or at least go into the crosswalk and dance around (like they do) until it went green. I remember nearly getting run over by cyclists all the time, and yelled at if I was going too slow.\nThat being said, we need to do 100,000 x more in the US towards making bike paths, protected bike lanes, etc., because cyling is a truly great way to get around and I miss it. I just don't miss the self-centered asshats that dominate the cycling community.",
">\n\nThis!",
">\n\nI’ve nothing against cyclists as a group. I prefer to hate all people who do stupid things whether they’re in cars, on bikes or walking. Went to pick my daughter up tonight and counted six cyclists in the dark wearing all black with no lights at all plus one with a light so weak I didn’t see it until I was nearly past him. Tonight it was dumb cyclists, but tomorrow it might be idiots in cars. Hate the idiots not the method of transportation.",
">\n\nTrue !",
">\n\nOMG YES !! I completely agree. Every time i tried to explain this to a friend, they would always look at me like I am crazy for thinking such a thing. But as I walk for 45 minutes every days, it became a reality you can't ignore... I can't count how many times I nearly got hit by a cyclist, it happens every other week. I am starting to think that cyclists should have to go through a \"course\" to learn the basics of using the streets x)\n(Sorry for mistakes, not native here 'x) )",
">\n\nThis is my story lol..",
">\n\nYes, and it also is my personal experience, which is why I posted this..?",
">\n\nYes I totally agree. Just saying \"that's my life\" :) happening in Brussels tho",
">\n\nMy bad x) welp France here, it amazes me in a really bad way how this seems to be such a common phenomenon literaly EVERYWHERE",
">\n\nJ'ai roulé en vélo à Paris et laisse tomber l'enfer que c'était. J'avais l'impression d'avancer avec des oies qui insultaient tout le monde. BAa bAAA BAaaAa !!! \nLe problème c'est que plus les gens sont stressés (même les piétons... Genre dans le metro) plus ils se haïssent et ce matin j'avais la haine sur les vélos.. en vrai j'ai la haine sur tous les citadins haha",
">\n\nas a cyclist I hate everyone",
">\n\nSame, I see posts like this where people tell us to ride on the sidewalk when it’s illegal. \nThey assume we don’t walk anywhere, drive, etc like we are essentially subhuman for doing exercise.\nThey tell us to ride closer to the right side of the road so we get hit by a car door. \nThey’re mad that we give a verbal signal that we’re coming up on the left even though that’s the law. \nnow that I’m in Colorado I’m getting yelled at for the Idaho stop, which is completely legal. We yield to stop signs and temporarily stop at red light only till it’s clear. It’s all to REDUCE CAR TRAFFIC.\nSo far I’ve had family members die from hit and runs and drunk drivers, but somehow cyclists are the most dangerous thing on the road today.\nWhat is this really about?",
">\n\nI loathe cyclists. Selfish, entitled lycra lunatics.",
">\n\nBe honest, do you realize that it's possible to ride a bicycle and not be selfish, or entitled, or a lunatic, or not wear lycra?",
">\n\nThis thread is such a circlejerk, it's ridiculous.",
">\n\nThat's what I'm here for",
">\n\nIt's because cycling isn't regulated like motor vehicles are but they still get on the roads unlike pedestrians. So they don't have knowledge on the rules of the road that drivers have.\nThere's also some sort of hypocrisy they have where they believe drivers should give way to them because bikes are more vulnerable than cars while expecting pedestrians to give way to them because they're moving faster.",
">\n\n\nSo they don't have knowledge on the rules of the road\n\nPlenty do. Many cyclists also are automobilists. They just feel like they're exempted from respecting trafic rules because it's tiring to stop and go on a bike and they're slower an lighter than cars.",
">\n\nSure you got hit by a truck, but at least you managed to save yourself a little time and avoid waiting for a few seconds. Is what I'd say if they didn't then end up in the hospital",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists, as it should be.",
">\n\nCyclists shouldn’t be on sidewalks",
">\n\nI also cringe a lot when I see the international Reddit community constantly praise us Dutch people for our biking culture. People have no idea how many traffic accidents we get that could have been avoided if we didn’t have cyclists EVERYWHERE who are barely aware of the traffic rules that also apply to them.\nPeople have no idea about how cyclists are almost always right according to our traffic laws, which makes them much more reckless. They cause millions of dollars of damage to cars (and pedestrians) each year, and barely ever face consequences for their irresponsible and reckless behavior in traffic.\nPeople don’t see how cyclists often block traffic because they like to cycle next to each other in pairs, and if you honk they get angry and sometimes even aggressive and try to break your side mirror if they feel like it.\nMany intersections have bicycle lanes that you need to check when making a turn when driving, even though the intersection is already super busy with lots of cars. And guess what, cyclists still ride around fast and recklessly and making sure you don’t hit another car, cyclist AND pedestrian is all the job of one single driver.\nSo all in all, people from countries where driving is a relatively easy and chill thing to do, praise cycling culture in other countries. Try to drive here in busy traffic with thousands of cars AND (RECKLESS) CYCLISTS on the road and then tell me what it’s like.",
">\n\nIt would be much easier to sympathize with cars drivers if they did not need like 60% of the entire transit space leaving cyclists and pedestrians very little.\n\neven though the intersection is already super busy with lots of cars\n\nOfc, because cars are so large and need so much space.",
">\n\nI get that, but why is that my fault? I don’t do the city planning. Besides, cars are much larger than bicycles, so doesn’t it make sense there’s more space needed for cars than for bicycles?\nBut even then, if you don’t want to have any sympathy for motorists, because city planners give them more space than others, that’s just weird. It’s not the motorist’s fault.",
">\n\n\ndoesn’t it make sense there’s more space needed for cars than for bicycles?\n\nWhy a valuable and scarce resource such as the public space in cities should be used predominantly to benefit car users while barring everyone else? \nI just find it much harder to sympathize with the privileged group.",
">\n\nBecause people need to be able to go from A to B?",
">\n\nSo do pedestrians/public transport users/cyclists. But they don't require so much space per person.",
">\n\nWell in The Netherlands public transportation takes up an enormous amount of space and cyclists have their own dedicated lanes almost everywhere. Also motorists have to give public transportation space as we usually have to stop for trams and buses to pass, according to traffic rules. Guess who doesn’t often follow those rules: cyclists.\nHowever, public transportation itself is super busy and unbelievably expensive in The Netherlands. It costs more than 20 Euros to travel ~70 kilometers. That’s why a lot of people still prefer to have a car, and cars simply need infrastructure.\nSo I don’t really get your point. Cars, bicycles and public transportation all get a fair portion of the space that’s available.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist, i hate pedestrians. Here in Germany, there is bike lanes, one part for bikes and one for pedestrians on traffic lights... etc. But the pedestrians just ignore them, form \"walls\" of people blocking the bike lane, dont look while crossing the bike lane. Even cars repect us more than you.",
">\n\nThis I understand. Experienced the same in Denmark",
">\n\nClaaaaaarksoooooonnnnn",
">\n\nIdk about other places but here cyclists are constantly breaking the law and never getting ticketed for it. It makes no sense to me. I don’t think it’d make a huge difference but I do think some cyclists would think twice about disregarding the rules if those rules were actually enforced.",
">\n\nI get the sentiment. My feeling is the root cause is they don’t have their own infrastructure. Cars and peds do. So cyclists are always forced into a non ideal path. \nI’m aware they have rights to the road but cars and bikes really struggle to share an infrastructure clearly made for cars. \nSo if we invest in cycling infrastructure everyone would probably be happier.",
">\n\ndoubt it. In my city there is an asphalt bike path for miles that is like 8 feet wide. Smooth. No stop signs. Do they use it? nope they get their collective ass out on the street and I honestly don't have a clue why.\nIt defies logic. Safter, smooth, not cars/trunks, etc. Here they are out on the street just fiddle farting down a 45 mph road like they own it with a bike path 15 feet away with no one on it. The last guy I asked said \"It is my road as well you know\" that I ran up on while I was at a crossing while riding on the path myself. I just gave up trying to understand. Someone dies on that road every couple of months from bike or pedestrian strike with a vehicle. It was the whole reason they built the path....",
">\n\nWell in my experience there are 2 thing going on there.\na) Often bikers will avoid the path because peds often share or walk across those paths and their speed is closer to that of a car than a ped or \nb) If they are commuting...the path likely isn't going exactly where they need to.\nAs to your specific scenario I don't doubt there are bikers that are hard headed and stubborn. I know a few of those. But generally I do bikers using the infrastructure where we have built it.",
">\n\nThere's an accident here involving @ car running over a cyclist who crossed a red traffic light. And guess who take the blame?",
">\n\nLaughs in being dutch",
">\n\nIt is regrettable that a handful of asshole cyclists ruins everyone’s opinion of us. It really undermines the support needed to improve infrastructure for cycling. \nIf it is any help, when i ring my bell, I am doing so to avoid the alternatives of either yelling a warning or startling people. I normally exit the path and pass on the grass. I would say that most cyclist are the same. I don’t want you to get out of the way, I want you to know I am there. \nBut it only takes a couple assholes that think they own the path or the street. I have a cousin like this and it is difficult to convince him his is wrong and is putting himself and others in danger.",
">\n\nI think the a-holes are people that are only on a bike because it's the easiest thing for them, living where they do. You and those like you are on the bike because you love cycling.",
">\n\nI live in Portland, OR, and the cyclists here are so fucking rude and entitled.",
">\n\nI live in not-Portland OR and visited once. I biked down the road. Could not believe how nice everyone was to me. Probably because they could tell I’m an outsider.",
">\n\nI meant how they treat everyone else who isn't on a bike, tbh.",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists and it's for a simple reason. They think they can do whatever the hell they want. They switch between a pedestrian, a cyclist and a vehicle deciding on the fly whatever rules they feel like following with no accountability. \nOne minute they are skipping traffic, then they are deciding to cross at a crosswalk instead of following traffic. And the sidewalks are bike lanes if that's more convenient.",
">\n\nI just get annoyed because they will ride double wide on a tight street, forcing you to go 60mph in a 45, on the opposite side of traffic, risking a head on collision. And yea, you have to do that, because otherwise cars behind you will start driving aggressive as well as the fact that your expecting all the cars to go at a bikes speed on the road.",
">\n\nThat's because every country except for the Netherlands and Denmark have shit bicycle infrastructure.",
">\n\nI civilised countries we have cycling paths and cycling on the street is also possible as drivers aren't insane. So this seems rather like a problem of poor urban planning than cyclists in general.",
">\n\nWhere I live the cyclists just refuse to take the bikelane and either block the traffic because the rather use the street or they decide to use the pedestrian side of the sidewalk. The frickin bikelane is as big as the pedestrian one. There is no excuse not to use it and they still won't! One of them almost hit me if I hadn't dodge it. If the cyclist only drove a few inches to the left there would have been a bikelane and it wouldn't happened. Of course the person didn't apologize and just cursed at me.",
">\n\nBike gutters are awful and less safe than taking the lane. Assholes park in the bike lanes ALL THE TIME. Plus no one ever looks behind them when getting out pf their car so getting smacked by a door is a real danger. Drivers are entitled but it’s not their fault it’s the way we’ve built society to allow and expect them to be.\nETA: next time you’re driving around take a count how many people you see pulled over or parked in a bike gutter.",
">\n\nCompletely agree - I was ran over almost 3 times in Berlin. \nAnd every single time I checked before crossing - but they just suddenly spawned right in the way",
">\n\nDid you cross at a designated crosswalk? As a cyclist the amount of times people just randomly meander across an active street instead of going to the zebra/lollipop crossing, and then get angry at me when I have to swerve out the way/ brake is comical.",
">\n\nMan, y'all are sad people. \n\"Get off the road!\" Okay, now we are on the sidewalk. \n\"Get off the sidewalk!\" Back in the road again. \n\"They need to ring their bells so we know they're coming! Btw I hate it when they ring their bells so I know they're coming.\"",
">\n\nI hate cyclists like that. I don’t have a car so my bike is my main source of transportation and I don’t ride like that. So far, from what I’ve noticed in my area, I’m the only one that follows the damn rules in my city xD",
">\n\nNo matter where you are and who you are… driver or walker, scooter or flyer… we ALL hate cyclists.",
">\n\nI feel ya. The only thing I hate more than cyclists is electric scooters.",
">\n\nCompletely agree! A cycling license (similar to driving) should be required. Far too many cyclist who doesn’t know (and those who don’t just give a F) about traffic rules.",
">\n\nI completely agree! Cyclists have a lot of rights on the roads, and are very vocal about them, but think they can do whatever the fuck they want at roundabouts and pedestrian crossings.",
">\n\nIt just fascinates me how anyone can walk or drive through a city and genuinely think that bicycles are the problem. Look around you at every turn there are cars jamming the roads. Parked blocking things. Blocking pavements. Driving aggressively. Speeding. Failing to stop. Polluting the air. If they hit you, you are seriously injured or dead. This happens in the thousands. The city absolutely revolves around them.",
">\n\nYou are 100% right. Except I didn't say bicycles are the problem. I said i hate them. I said fuck cars too. I also said bicycles are one of the best alternative for trafic jam in cities.\nCities in Europe weren't made for cars nor bikes. So the problem is the fucking lazy greedy people who decide how to spend our tax money. The problem is people thinking they are all alone on the street. The problem is how stressed everybody is and how it become dangerous.\nNot because I hate how cyclists take revenge from drivers bullies to pedestrians makes me hate a transportation model itself.",
">\n\nIt just seems odd that people can really harp on about cyclists when they are such a trivial issue. Posts like this can get hundreds of replies. People tend to make excuses about cars.",
">\n\nYou just insulted a whole country.",
">\n\nThe Netherlands? It's ok",
">\n\nOk",
">\n\nI judge the actions of the individual not the mode of transport. I find it produces more accurate results.",
">\n\nApparently \"individuals alone are responsible for their own actions\" is the real unpopular opinion here.",
">\n\nIndeed 😀",
">\n\nAs a car driver I also hate cyclists. Saw one on a 45mph the other day despite there being a sidewalk AND a bikelane",
">\n\n45 mph isn't a speed for bike lane or sidewalk. Street is",
">\n\nas a cyclist, I hate pedestrians.\nMy city put in these nice protected bicycle lanes so bikes don't have to ride inches from cars, and boy don't those pedestrians just LOVE using the bike lane as a queuing up spot for the crosswalks. it's just so nice and convenient to get 5 more feet closer to your goal, isn't it? Those bicycles can stop and wait...and feel free to swear at them like THEY are the ones in the wrong.\nBicycles and pedestrians are natural enemies, that's never going to change. There can be only one.",
">\n\nLET'S END THIS NOW !!!!!",
">\n\nanyplace but Holy Ground.",
">\n\ndon't blame all bicyclists for the shitty ones.\nthat would be like saying every person who drives a car is an asshole. or every person who walks on the sidewalk is an asshole.\nsome people are good at getting around. other people are jerks. don't blame everyone for the actions of a small subset of people.",
">\n\nI mean, isn’t that the sentiment over that the popular sub r/fuckcars? The generalization is already being perpetuated from cyclists and “urbanists” in their war against cars.",
">\n\nNot really. That sub mostly hates the focus on cars when designing infrastructure, as well as the forced dependency on cars in our modern world. Not individual drivers.",
">\n\nSure about that? It’s mostly just a bitch-fest about driver errors to further their political agenda.",
">\n\nYea, I'm pretty sure.",
">\n\nReally weird way to get there if that’s the case. Alienating a large portion of the population (car drivers, car riders, people that depend on vehicles for the delivery of goods and services) is not how you get them on your side.",
">\n\nI don't think that's their goal in the first place. It's just a reddit sub.",
">\n\nEspecially when they have a stupid fucking bell and say \"on the left\" then proceed to be on the right side of the trail running into you",
">\n\nHahahha \"is he coming on the left or should i go on the lef...\" BANG!!",
">\n\nGF lives in a college town. It’s as if there’s some kinda fuckin’ death wish among the student cycling population",
">\n\nAs a [insert anyone, including cyclist], I hate cyclists.",
">\n\nPeople don't wanna hear it when it comes from automobilists because \"gngn cars are more dangerous and drivers are entitled\" but reality is cyclists are just the worst. Whether I'm on foot, driving a car, or riding a bicycle myself, cyclists are always always the ones being absolute public hazards. Heck, when I'm on my bike and stop at the stop sign on a cycle lane to let the cars go, they look at me as if I'm jesus or something. They even try to let me pass first because of how used they are to cyclists who just can't be bothered to respect the damn stop sign.",
">\n\nThe problem isn't the cyclists here, it's the lacking infrastructure.",
">\n\nWe shouldn't have to build infrastructure so people can partake in recreation. I find that comment extremely arrogant. Why on earth do cyclists deserve to have their recreation glorified and catered to??",
">\n\nRecreation? Ah yes, cycling is only for recreation.",
">\n\nWell, where I live that I'd the ONLY purpose. I'm 17 miles from any city municipality. Nobody is biking here to go to the grocery store or work.",
">\n\nNot everything is about you personally.",
">\n\nTo me, it is, and should be. My concern is around how cyclists inconvenience me while I'm trying to be a productive member of society. I feel like that's a fair critique.",
">\n\nYou are mad that cyclists inconvenience you yet you reject dedicated infrastructure as a solution. Do you think cyclists should be banned off the road completely?",
">\n\nThe real issue here is lacking cycling infrastructure.",
">\n\nDefinitely a major issue.\nBut part of the issue is definitely cyclists who prioritize their own speed over the safety and welfare of everyone around them. It's like they are all BMW drivers, deep down, and just don't want to yield to or slow down for anyone.",
">\n\nI'm sure there are, assholes exist in all vehicle types.",
">\n\nCyclists know thar neither the pavement nor the road are theirs because motorists and pedestrians like you are both screaming at them all the time. And I swear you'd be angrier if they didn't give a polite warning that they're coming toward you. \nCyclists who breeze through crossings instead of stopping are a minority, much like cyclists are a minority in general, and you can't judge an entire group that aren't adequately represented",
">\n\nFuck traveling in general",
">\n\nYa. Where are our transporters! \nSorry had to go full nerd.",
">\n\nI see posts like this constantly. It blows my mind people can just choose one thing that is so insignificant to scapegoat. \nThey assume people on bikes don’t also walk, drive, etc like we are essentially subhuman for doing exercise / running errands in this way because they are inconvenienced for a few seconds. You realize we are human like you , right?\nPeople tell us to ride bicycles on the sidewalk when it’s illegal while others say not too. It’s usually against the law.\nThey tell us to ride closer to the right side of the road , so we get hit by a car door and yelled at again. \nThey’re mad that we give a verbal signal that we’re coming up on the left even though that’s the law. \nNow that I’m in Colorado I’m getting yelled at for the Idaho stop, which is completely legal. We yield to stop signs and temporarily stop at red lights only if it’s clear. It’s all to REDUCE CAR TRAFFIC. \nKeep in mind we are riding bicycles which in its own right REDUCES CAR TRAFFIC. \n80% of car trips are within 3 miles from your house. Everyone that rides a bike keeps you from being stuck behind them in traffic for longer then the 20 seconds you’re currently inconvenienced. It’s also mean parking closer to the front door of a shop. \nSo far I’ve had family members die from hit and runs and drunk drivers, but somehow cyclists are the most dangerous thing on the road today?! It’s not adding up.\nWhat is this really about?",
">\n\nI'm sorry for your losses. I never said bikers are the most dangerous things on the road. Saying this would be stupid. The problem in my city is the lack of respect from cyclists to pedestrians in a general way. I'm not even talking about drivers against EVERYTHING ON THE STREET.",
">\n\nI go out of my way to be respectful to everybody, and I’ve had nothing but kindness and respect from other cyclists .\nYou wanna blame everybody on a bicycle for all your problems when it’s really just about a few people who disrespected you. \nCyclists are drivers, walkers, etc. do they just jump on a bicycle and instantly become disrespectful?\nStill doesn’t make any logical sense.",
">\n\nDude you just don't get it.. i understand biking is your life.. but come on.\nI use to bike 40km per day to work. \nI don't have problems with people jumping on bikes. I simply hate the ones that are disrespectful.\nIs it too hard to understand? Just me venting coz I feel like a lot of bikers think they are on top of the citizen pyramid? \nI'm not venting about the system here, nor about cars.. just about some (yes some) bikers.\nAnd please there is no need to beg for upvotes on fuckcars how old are you?",
">\n\nI bet your fat.",
">\n\nOf course I fart !",
">\n\nTo you yours and to mine mine; I hate car users and their ilk who are filled with wonton waste and hate for all else who dare travel near them. I stop at all lights, halt for all signs, use a mirror, lights, and hand signals, pull over for cars coming my way so long as there is any room, and use what little biking infrastructure is available to me.\nMy taxes are waste and paid in folly for they assuredly go in portion to your reckless use of a powerful machine and not to my own reckless use of a small self-propelled stick on two wheels to separate lanes and keep them maintained. No, no, I must settle for the gutter and cry glee for that and be ashamed to move to the sidewalk when it suddenly ends and continues a block later down the road. \nFuck your car, your roads, and your selfish desire to pave the world and create cities with 60% of their coverage dedicated to driving a car, parking a car, and separating the world into places for cars and otherwise. You who drive faster and faster, in bigger and bigger cars. I loath you as you loath mine.",
">\n\nI wouldn’t hate cyclists if they didn’t act like road laws don’t apply to em in the city where I live. I’ve seen cyclists not even stop at red lights even with an almost full intersection, and ride the wrong way down one ways.\nEdit: I do wish the city where I live had more bike lanes but yeah.",
">\n\nIf you're going to hate someone, maybe hate the people actually doing those things.\nIf I see someone on a bike rush through a short break on a red light in an otherwise busy intersection, I shake my head and think they are an idiot. I think this while waiting for the light to turn green on my bike.\nSimilarly, when a car illegally stops in a bike lane (which happens ALL THE TIME by the way), I don't turn around and blame the cars moving along legally in the adjacent lane.",
">\n\nPedestrian are the worst.\nWhen i started using bicicle I was very polite: brake, ring, ask for permission. And what the large amount of people do? Ignore u, watch u in the eyes and take a step in the fucking middle of the trail (many many times! for real!), shout at you just because u exist. So.... At some point is fuck you all, I'm coming go out of the way. That's it",
">\n\n\nI will never drive nor park on a bike lane, always look into the mirror to be careful of one of you monkeys. So why can't you be careful when us peasants are walking?\n\nThis is dumb. Obviously there are plenty of cyclists who are careful and courteous about your safety. That's part of what a bell or \"watch out!\" (generally \"On your left\") is doing for you. And just because you are courteous to them doesn't mean everyone is. Is every driver a douchebag just because some of them crowd cyclists when and where the cyclist has the right to the road? No.",
">\n\nThe difference here is that generally car drivers are going to be held accountable for bad driving. This is in the form of dash cams, ANPR and red light cameras which catch drivers doing bad things and they can receive a fine or points on their licence. Cyclists currently can't be held accountable if they jump red lights or hit a car or pedestrian as there isn't anything that helps identify them. This is a big issue in cities. I live and work in London and see many cyclists jumping red lights and weaving around pedestrians crossing. Cars can't do this as most traffic lights have red light cameras that would catch this.\nDrivers as a collective (including me) are in no way perfect or even held to account 100% of the time, but I believe we need a system for cyclists to be held accountable too",
">\n\nYour way of thinking, while perfectly rational and natural, is outdated. Traffic law enforcement, like any other law enforcement, is less about the enforcement, and more about the prevention. Where I live, speed and red light cameras are clearly marked ahead so that the people who'd normally break the law follow it instead, making punishment unnecessary. \nSame could be done with cyclists. Sure, you could make every cyclist install a license plate, require a \"cycling license\", or install expensive cameras with facial identification software, but how about just make it so cyclists aren't incentivised to break the law in the first place? \nMake more useful cycling infrastructure, and more cyclists will use it. Make that infrastructure intersect with foot and motor traffic more safely and less often, and less collisions will happen.",
">\n\nI completely understand your point. However, a lot of money has gone into my local area for cycling infrastructure that most cyclists are using, but many are still choosing to break the rules as the rules are inconvenient. The infrastructure is not enough, there needs to be an incentive NOT to break the rules.\nIf you take a look at Chiswick High Road in London, England. They have created segregated cycle lanes from the traffic. These cycle lanes have their own lights and crossings to keep them safe from cars. However many cyclists just ignore the lights and just keep going into pedestrians. There is no punishment for them doing this as they can't be tracked. Personally I think every cyclist should have to register their bike (make it free to help encourage this) and then a new form of ANPR used to also catch cyclists in the act",
">\n\nPersonally I'd have no problem registering my bike for free, especially if I could use that same registration if it gets stolen, but registering something as mechanically simple and cheap as a bicycle is, in my opinion difficult if not impossible to do without making the bike mechanically complex and expensive, at which point most people would just switch to scooters.\nI don't live in London, but from what I've heard, by far the biggest threat in the city is still motorized traffic, namely cars and lorries, and so until that problem is no longer a problem, I wouldn't really do anything special about bikes. Maybe put some undercover bike cops near the most dangerous bike path/lane intersections to catch a few offenders and make an example out of them, but that's about it.",
">\n\nMost cars I’ve driven came equipped with brakes and a steering wheel. I don’t see the problem",
">\n\nA common take and a stupid one.\nThere are good and bad drivers, pedestrians, and cyclists. Hating any of them as a group because some of them do bad things is just dumb.",
">\n\nIf you followed the laws and stayed out of the bike lane as a pedestrian there would be no problem.",
">\n\nIf bicyclists followed the laws and stopped ignoring street signs/traffic lights there would be no problem.",
">\n\nDon’t see how this address the problem with pedestrians in bike lanes.",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Drivers pedestrians other cyclists. They're a scourge.",
">\n\nEvery word of this is pure wisdom.",
">\n\nAs a car driver, I too hate cyclists.\nI don't care who has 'right of way'. I'm in a car, you're not. If we collide, regardless of fault, you're the one that dies.\nDo you really want to die on the hill that says \"i can bike on the rode b/c it's legal\"?\nI might be in jail, but you're still dead.\nBikes don't belong on public roads. Unless there's a bike lane - aka, a pathway designed specifically for bikers.\nIt's FAR SAFER to bike on the sidewalk.",
">\n\nBe careful you’ll anger r/fuckcars",
">\n\nI recently got a bike in Japan and there isn't any room on the street to ride my bike. Most people are fine when I'm on the sidewalk, however, the worst ones are groups of 2 or more who try and take up as much space as possible allowing nobody to pass. Same with the people who constantly switch between the left and right side of the sidewalk. It's really annoying to see how little spacial awareness they have.",
">\n\nCyclists on the road don’t have to pass the same test as vehicles on the road, which is why they are so bad. If there was a test in order to cycle on the road then i think it would be alot better",
">\n\nWhy do you hate all cyclists when only some of them are rude/dangerous?",
">\n\nCope hehe",
">\n\nIt's the powered vehicles that kill most pedestrians.\nBut, sure, cyclists blahblah...",
">\n\nAs an occasional cyclist, I don't like you either.",
">\n\nI biked everywhere.....when I was a child. I'm an adult now and have an automobile. They are pretty neat.",
">\n\nWhen I used to have to walk to work I’d walk on the sidewalk and listen to music and one time this guy zipped right by me yelling almost knocking me over and flipped me off?? They act like they don’t have breaks lmao",
">\n\nholy smokes! glad you're ok",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Even cyclists.",
">\n\nAnd here i thought why the f pediatrician hate cyclists",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Even other cyclists.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist this thread is hilarious"
] |
>
Not unpopular
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[
"I road cycled for years, I always followed the street rules. Always. Red light means red light. \nI have so many cycling friends who get into accidents and other conflicts with drivers, and yet they think it’s stupid to stop at a red light. They just don’t connect these two things",
">\n\nMost bikers I encounter are complete idiots. Like I'd be driving normally and out of nowhere comes a biker on a crosswalk in full speed. Now, I appreciate bikers who actually stop and make eye contact with me as I'm driving towards the crosswalk but man, it's either that or the biker almost dies because I have no time to brake.\nAnd what's up with all the bikers going like 5 kmh IN THE MIDDLE of a road when there's a dedicated sidewalk for bikers right next to them? Drives me insane.",
">\n\nIt seems like most bikers because of observation bias.\nIf you follow the rules as you should, you’re unmemorable.\nAs for the sidewalks - its actually less safe on the sidewalk.",
">\n\nInteresting. Dangerous situations are more valuable to remember, and I remember tons of irresponsible bikers. It is in fact observation bias. But I'm always happy to see those who pay close attention to traffic, and I do remeber some of them aswell.",
">\n\nWell the same goes for driving. How many cars do you remember when they haven’t done anything? But you tend to remember the ones who do something dumb",
">\n\nYeah it can be applied to anything really.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist in one of the most bike-dense cities in the world, I hate cyclists too. If I could avoid getting myself hurt, I’d be ramming at least ten of them a day just to teach a lesson about ignoring rules and common sense.",
">\n\nAmsterdam? Copenhagen?",
">\n\nCopenhagen. It’s a wonderful bike city but the people are incredibly self-centered.",
">\n\nI had high expectations from cyclists when I first visited the city, after all it is heralded as a cycling paradise and, well, let’s say it looked a lot more like the rest of the world and mainly because of the personal behavior of cyclists.\nMy local friend justified it, stating that it’s because danish are more temperamental than all other Scandinavians: an explanation that I really didn’t know what to do with…",
">\n\nIf “temperamental” means “a bunch of egotistical [insert unflattering body part]”, he’s right.",
">\n\nYou make it sound like a war zone. I live in Copenhagen and most of the time biking around the city is very pleasant. Except for the food delivery scooters, they can 🤬 off.",
">\n\nI guess it depends on how often and where you’re going. If you have places to be each and every day and want to get there effectively, people ignoring general rules and courtesies of the road are a pain. If you’re one of the types listening to podcasts with a latte in one hand and a phone in the other just trudging along, it’s probably fine.",
">\n\nSame! I love walking. Where I live on popular trails, there are bike lanes, but the cyclists will just ride wherever they. They don’t care and won’t let you know they’re coming. They’ll get pissy if you don’t just automatically know they’re coming up from behind you. If you do much as step foot in the bike lane, they get mad, but have no problems riding side by side outside the bike lane.",
">\n\nSame here! So much for my pleasant walk on the beautiful Trail. They sneak up and when they're almost on top of me, a loud voice yells \"On your left!\" They startle the shit out of me and cause me to jump sky high! 😡",
">\n\nIt’s literally the law to say that. This thread is all about hating them no matter if they follow the law or not.",
">\n\nIs it possible to do that without sneaking up on them and startling the shit out of them by yelling real loud? And then cutting is close to them as you possibly can without hitting them?",
">\n\nHello. \nMy useless comment to this post is here :D\nSo, i work in the accidents department of a big insurance company. My country is very strickt about the road rules, meaning:\nOur company estimates (is this the right word?) that around 82% of accidents involving cyclists, are to blame on the cyclist. Since there are expecific places on the road for you to ride your bike, even if it's not a bike lane.\nI remember a case where 3 dudes were just cycling, outside of town and they were literally on the middle of the road. the place where they were is full of curves and has very little visibility, so they were riding side by side, middle of the road, comes a car, hits not one, but the 3 of them because they scared the person and she just swerved the car.\nThey sued her and us (insurance) 2 times. Lost both and had to pay for all damage done on the car by their own bodys",
">\n\nThis sounds like something that happened near by my home town, are you in Ontario?",
">\n\nno XD portugal",
">\n\nGod its so much worse that it's happened in multiple places.\nIn ours I think the driver killed one of the cyclists, then sued the family for emotional damage",
">\n\nMy biggest gripe about cyclists is that there is always some danger when you encounter them on the road, either as a pedestrian or motorist. Now, part of it isn’t their fault. At least here in the US, not much of the infrastructure is made for bicycles. But cyclists are constantly breaking the rules of the road (or sidewalk) to get where they’re going faster. Blowing red lights, leaving the bike lane to use the sidewalk, splitting lanes. I always clench a little when I approach one, wondering if this is the day I can’t get out of the way.",
">\n\nWe have that same problem, but then a million times worse, because I live in The Netherlands. You probably know about our proud cycling culture (the Amsterdam stereotype). And yes, cyclists here are just as bad as the ones you describe, but there’s a lot more of them here. And oh yeah, traffic laws are almost always in their favor.",
">\n\nI found driving in the towns of the Netherlands so hard. Not just because I was on the wrong side of the road 😉 but because I just wasn’t used to sooo many cyclists coming from all directions, always faster than me and passing on both sides. Even as I was signalling to leave a roundabout at one point about three cyclists rode past on the inside. I really struggled to keep up with them all, which of course means I drove slower and thus even more bikes passed me!",
">\n\nYes that is of course very difficult, however as a Dutchman I’m used to cyclists, so of course we struggle a lot less. But that doesn’t take away from the fact that cyclists do cause a lot of issues because of their careless behavior, and because as drivers we have to accommodate them. That one sided ‘deal’ that we have makes it very difficult to deal with them.\nAll in all I’m happy we have so many cyclists as it’s good for the environment. But the utopian mindset of cyclists being a gift to the world is just stupid. Especially when you consider that mostly Americans who drive on wide open roads with barely any cyclists around are the ones praising cyclists in my country all the time. Also, cyclists annoy the hell out of pedestrians as well, so it’s not just about motorists.",
">\n\nCyclists treat red lights like stop signs and stop signs like yield signs (at best). They’re not allowed on sidewalks but do it anyway. Fuckin hate cyclists.",
">\n\nEverything you said is completely legal in Denver and sidewalks are illegal , but drivers constantly scream at cyclists to ride there",
">\n\nCyclist can roll stop signs and run red lights in Denver? What the fuck?",
">\n\nI’d have no problem if cyclist had respect for other road users. where I live there are cycle lanes, but most cyclists are on the road or pavements, they ignore red lights etc. \nIf you want to cycle please make it’s safe for yourself and others around you.",
">\n\nExactly my thoughts",
">\n\nHonestly, selfish assholes exist everywhere but a selfish asshole on a bicycle does a lot less damage than a selfish asshole in a car. \nEDIT: OP's also downvoting everyone who disagrees with him, just fyi.",
">\n\nAs a pedestrian, I hate everyone who's not a pedestrian... And some pedestrians too.",
">\n\nThere's a reason so many cyclists die each year, they all seem to pick and choose which laws they want to follow. Its always safer to assume they'll do whatever they want and everyone else needs to adapt to them.",
">\n\nAs a driver downtown, I don't worry at all about pedestrians at intersections, I can turn my head and assume they will be maybe five feet closer to my car when I look back, (and I trust they won't sprint towards me when I look away, at their own peril), but bikes, they ride so fast, that in the short time I turn my head to check for oncoming traffic, a bike could materialize right beside / infront me, and I risk hitting them or them hitting the side of my car. And that's even in their designated bike lane, that I have to pass through to clear the intersection. And if I drive into a ped at three miles per hour, they will just hit my hood with their fist and call me a stupid motherfucker, or whatever makes them feel justice was served, but if I bump the bike, it will be a big crash, the bicyclist will be all curled up in a ball on the ground, I'll be the bad guy in the eyes of the law and anyone nearby, and I'll probably be late as fuck to wherever it is I'm trying to go to.",
">\n\nI skateboard so I guess I'm good",
">\n\nJust don’t inconvenience narcissistic car drivers by a few seconds.",
">\n\nI think everyone hates cyclists. Cyclists included.",
">\n\nAs a driver, I hate you both",
">\n\nPedestrians are literally the worst. Anyone who has to walk more than 20 feet a day and not to their car are complete losers, and should be jailed on site.",
">\n\nOK, I think that's a bit extreme. But hey, if you're running for public office I'll vote for you. \nI do have to wonder anytime I see someone that I know has the mental faculties to drive who is walking. Usually assume too many DUI's.",
">\n\nr/fuckcars ripping out their hair rn",
">\n\nNot unpopular.\n Everyone hates cyclists.",
">\n\nI casually cycle in the summer. If I'm on a trail, I'll slow down and ring my bell if I see pedestrians, or stop and dismount if there's a lot of people or they don't notice me. Especially on the narrow trails in this woodlot I sometimes go to. \nThe problem is a lot of cyclists, especially in North America, but perhaps other places, just aren't respectful of others. They demand car drivers \"share the road\", but then ride in huge packs, lane split, don't signal turns, run stop signs and red lights, weave in and out of traffic, boot up busy sidewalks at 15-20mph, refuse to use provided bike lanes, etc. There's like a gross sense of entitlement in the cycling community. Dude, you're still a vehicle. There's rules that apply to you, just like there are for cars and motorcycles. Big problem is difficulty/lack of enforcement. Cops have to catch them in the act. Even then they're slippery devils since they're usually more mobile than a cruiser or beat cop on foot. This is why I support plating bikes to make them easily identifiable.",
">\n\n\nThere's like a gross sense of entitlement in the cycling community. Dude, you're still a vehicle. There's rules that apply to you, just like there are for cars and motorcycles.\n\nThat is the problem right there. They want to be treated equal to car owners, yet they do not abide by traffic rules, hence all the accidents.",
">\n\nAs a driver, I concur.",
">\n\nI hate bikers on trails. They're supposed to stop and let hikers by but they never do. They go by so freakin' fast too. It's like come on now!",
">\n\nAs a mostly former cyclist, I often hated cyclists too. Mostly, because so many cyclist are just competitive asshats that suck the pleasure out of their own bike ride by making everything about speed. Like, heaven forbid they have to slow and yield to anyone.\nOnce, I was riding my bicycle with my young daughter on a bike path in the city. A couple cyclist came up and got all pissy at us, saying we need to be out of the cycle lane because we were going too slow and my 8 year old kid wasn't keeping to a narrow lane. It was so hostile - my kid started crying.\nBut that is just so typical, all the time. I've gotten yelled out a few times when I made a full, foot down stop at a redlight because the cyclist behind me was expecting me to either run the redlight or at least go into the crosswalk and dance around (like they do) until it went green. I remember nearly getting run over by cyclists all the time, and yelled at if I was going too slow.\nThat being said, we need to do 100,000 x more in the US towards making bike paths, protected bike lanes, etc., because cyling is a truly great way to get around and I miss it. I just don't miss the self-centered asshats that dominate the cycling community.",
">\n\nThis!",
">\n\nI’ve nothing against cyclists as a group. I prefer to hate all people who do stupid things whether they’re in cars, on bikes or walking. Went to pick my daughter up tonight and counted six cyclists in the dark wearing all black with no lights at all plus one with a light so weak I didn’t see it until I was nearly past him. Tonight it was dumb cyclists, but tomorrow it might be idiots in cars. Hate the idiots not the method of transportation.",
">\n\nTrue !",
">\n\nOMG YES !! I completely agree. Every time i tried to explain this to a friend, they would always look at me like I am crazy for thinking such a thing. But as I walk for 45 minutes every days, it became a reality you can't ignore... I can't count how many times I nearly got hit by a cyclist, it happens every other week. I am starting to think that cyclists should have to go through a \"course\" to learn the basics of using the streets x)\n(Sorry for mistakes, not native here 'x) )",
">\n\nThis is my story lol..",
">\n\nYes, and it also is my personal experience, which is why I posted this..?",
">\n\nYes I totally agree. Just saying \"that's my life\" :) happening in Brussels tho",
">\n\nMy bad x) welp France here, it amazes me in a really bad way how this seems to be such a common phenomenon literaly EVERYWHERE",
">\n\nJ'ai roulé en vélo à Paris et laisse tomber l'enfer que c'était. J'avais l'impression d'avancer avec des oies qui insultaient tout le monde. BAa bAAA BAaaAa !!! \nLe problème c'est que plus les gens sont stressés (même les piétons... Genre dans le metro) plus ils se haïssent et ce matin j'avais la haine sur les vélos.. en vrai j'ai la haine sur tous les citadins haha",
">\n\nas a cyclist I hate everyone",
">\n\nSame, I see posts like this where people tell us to ride on the sidewalk when it’s illegal. \nThey assume we don’t walk anywhere, drive, etc like we are essentially subhuman for doing exercise.\nThey tell us to ride closer to the right side of the road so we get hit by a car door. \nThey’re mad that we give a verbal signal that we’re coming up on the left even though that’s the law. \nnow that I’m in Colorado I’m getting yelled at for the Idaho stop, which is completely legal. We yield to stop signs and temporarily stop at red light only till it’s clear. It’s all to REDUCE CAR TRAFFIC.\nSo far I’ve had family members die from hit and runs and drunk drivers, but somehow cyclists are the most dangerous thing on the road today.\nWhat is this really about?",
">\n\nI loathe cyclists. Selfish, entitled lycra lunatics.",
">\n\nBe honest, do you realize that it's possible to ride a bicycle and not be selfish, or entitled, or a lunatic, or not wear lycra?",
">\n\nThis thread is such a circlejerk, it's ridiculous.",
">\n\nThat's what I'm here for",
">\n\nIt's because cycling isn't regulated like motor vehicles are but they still get on the roads unlike pedestrians. So they don't have knowledge on the rules of the road that drivers have.\nThere's also some sort of hypocrisy they have where they believe drivers should give way to them because bikes are more vulnerable than cars while expecting pedestrians to give way to them because they're moving faster.",
">\n\n\nSo they don't have knowledge on the rules of the road\n\nPlenty do. Many cyclists also are automobilists. They just feel like they're exempted from respecting trafic rules because it's tiring to stop and go on a bike and they're slower an lighter than cars.",
">\n\nSure you got hit by a truck, but at least you managed to save yourself a little time and avoid waiting for a few seconds. Is what I'd say if they didn't then end up in the hospital",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists, as it should be.",
">\n\nCyclists shouldn’t be on sidewalks",
">\n\nI also cringe a lot when I see the international Reddit community constantly praise us Dutch people for our biking culture. People have no idea how many traffic accidents we get that could have been avoided if we didn’t have cyclists EVERYWHERE who are barely aware of the traffic rules that also apply to them.\nPeople have no idea about how cyclists are almost always right according to our traffic laws, which makes them much more reckless. They cause millions of dollars of damage to cars (and pedestrians) each year, and barely ever face consequences for their irresponsible and reckless behavior in traffic.\nPeople don’t see how cyclists often block traffic because they like to cycle next to each other in pairs, and if you honk they get angry and sometimes even aggressive and try to break your side mirror if they feel like it.\nMany intersections have bicycle lanes that you need to check when making a turn when driving, even though the intersection is already super busy with lots of cars. And guess what, cyclists still ride around fast and recklessly and making sure you don’t hit another car, cyclist AND pedestrian is all the job of one single driver.\nSo all in all, people from countries where driving is a relatively easy and chill thing to do, praise cycling culture in other countries. Try to drive here in busy traffic with thousands of cars AND (RECKLESS) CYCLISTS on the road and then tell me what it’s like.",
">\n\nIt would be much easier to sympathize with cars drivers if they did not need like 60% of the entire transit space leaving cyclists and pedestrians very little.\n\neven though the intersection is already super busy with lots of cars\n\nOfc, because cars are so large and need so much space.",
">\n\nI get that, but why is that my fault? I don’t do the city planning. Besides, cars are much larger than bicycles, so doesn’t it make sense there’s more space needed for cars than for bicycles?\nBut even then, if you don’t want to have any sympathy for motorists, because city planners give them more space than others, that’s just weird. It’s not the motorist’s fault.",
">\n\n\ndoesn’t it make sense there’s more space needed for cars than for bicycles?\n\nWhy a valuable and scarce resource such as the public space in cities should be used predominantly to benefit car users while barring everyone else? \nI just find it much harder to sympathize with the privileged group.",
">\n\nBecause people need to be able to go from A to B?",
">\n\nSo do pedestrians/public transport users/cyclists. But they don't require so much space per person.",
">\n\nWell in The Netherlands public transportation takes up an enormous amount of space and cyclists have their own dedicated lanes almost everywhere. Also motorists have to give public transportation space as we usually have to stop for trams and buses to pass, according to traffic rules. Guess who doesn’t often follow those rules: cyclists.\nHowever, public transportation itself is super busy and unbelievably expensive in The Netherlands. It costs more than 20 Euros to travel ~70 kilometers. That’s why a lot of people still prefer to have a car, and cars simply need infrastructure.\nSo I don’t really get your point. Cars, bicycles and public transportation all get a fair portion of the space that’s available.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist, i hate pedestrians. Here in Germany, there is bike lanes, one part for bikes and one for pedestrians on traffic lights... etc. But the pedestrians just ignore them, form \"walls\" of people blocking the bike lane, dont look while crossing the bike lane. Even cars repect us more than you.",
">\n\nThis I understand. Experienced the same in Denmark",
">\n\nClaaaaaarksoooooonnnnn",
">\n\nIdk about other places but here cyclists are constantly breaking the law and never getting ticketed for it. It makes no sense to me. I don’t think it’d make a huge difference but I do think some cyclists would think twice about disregarding the rules if those rules were actually enforced.",
">\n\nI get the sentiment. My feeling is the root cause is they don’t have their own infrastructure. Cars and peds do. So cyclists are always forced into a non ideal path. \nI’m aware they have rights to the road but cars and bikes really struggle to share an infrastructure clearly made for cars. \nSo if we invest in cycling infrastructure everyone would probably be happier.",
">\n\ndoubt it. In my city there is an asphalt bike path for miles that is like 8 feet wide. Smooth. No stop signs. Do they use it? nope they get their collective ass out on the street and I honestly don't have a clue why.\nIt defies logic. Safter, smooth, not cars/trunks, etc. Here they are out on the street just fiddle farting down a 45 mph road like they own it with a bike path 15 feet away with no one on it. The last guy I asked said \"It is my road as well you know\" that I ran up on while I was at a crossing while riding on the path myself. I just gave up trying to understand. Someone dies on that road every couple of months from bike or pedestrian strike with a vehicle. It was the whole reason they built the path....",
">\n\nWell in my experience there are 2 thing going on there.\na) Often bikers will avoid the path because peds often share or walk across those paths and their speed is closer to that of a car than a ped or \nb) If they are commuting...the path likely isn't going exactly where they need to.\nAs to your specific scenario I don't doubt there are bikers that are hard headed and stubborn. I know a few of those. But generally I do bikers using the infrastructure where we have built it.",
">\n\nThere's an accident here involving @ car running over a cyclist who crossed a red traffic light. And guess who take the blame?",
">\n\nLaughs in being dutch",
">\n\nIt is regrettable that a handful of asshole cyclists ruins everyone’s opinion of us. It really undermines the support needed to improve infrastructure for cycling. \nIf it is any help, when i ring my bell, I am doing so to avoid the alternatives of either yelling a warning or startling people. I normally exit the path and pass on the grass. I would say that most cyclist are the same. I don’t want you to get out of the way, I want you to know I am there. \nBut it only takes a couple assholes that think they own the path or the street. I have a cousin like this and it is difficult to convince him his is wrong and is putting himself and others in danger.",
">\n\nI think the a-holes are people that are only on a bike because it's the easiest thing for them, living where they do. You and those like you are on the bike because you love cycling.",
">\n\nI live in Portland, OR, and the cyclists here are so fucking rude and entitled.",
">\n\nI live in not-Portland OR and visited once. I biked down the road. Could not believe how nice everyone was to me. Probably because they could tell I’m an outsider.",
">\n\nI meant how they treat everyone else who isn't on a bike, tbh.",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists and it's for a simple reason. They think they can do whatever the hell they want. They switch between a pedestrian, a cyclist and a vehicle deciding on the fly whatever rules they feel like following with no accountability. \nOne minute they are skipping traffic, then they are deciding to cross at a crosswalk instead of following traffic. And the sidewalks are bike lanes if that's more convenient.",
">\n\nI just get annoyed because they will ride double wide on a tight street, forcing you to go 60mph in a 45, on the opposite side of traffic, risking a head on collision. And yea, you have to do that, because otherwise cars behind you will start driving aggressive as well as the fact that your expecting all the cars to go at a bikes speed on the road.",
">\n\nThat's because every country except for the Netherlands and Denmark have shit bicycle infrastructure.",
">\n\nI civilised countries we have cycling paths and cycling on the street is also possible as drivers aren't insane. So this seems rather like a problem of poor urban planning than cyclists in general.",
">\n\nWhere I live the cyclists just refuse to take the bikelane and either block the traffic because the rather use the street or they decide to use the pedestrian side of the sidewalk. The frickin bikelane is as big as the pedestrian one. There is no excuse not to use it and they still won't! One of them almost hit me if I hadn't dodge it. If the cyclist only drove a few inches to the left there would have been a bikelane and it wouldn't happened. Of course the person didn't apologize and just cursed at me.",
">\n\nBike gutters are awful and less safe than taking the lane. Assholes park in the bike lanes ALL THE TIME. Plus no one ever looks behind them when getting out pf their car so getting smacked by a door is a real danger. Drivers are entitled but it’s not their fault it’s the way we’ve built society to allow and expect them to be.\nETA: next time you’re driving around take a count how many people you see pulled over or parked in a bike gutter.",
">\n\nCompletely agree - I was ran over almost 3 times in Berlin. \nAnd every single time I checked before crossing - but they just suddenly spawned right in the way",
">\n\nDid you cross at a designated crosswalk? As a cyclist the amount of times people just randomly meander across an active street instead of going to the zebra/lollipop crossing, and then get angry at me when I have to swerve out the way/ brake is comical.",
">\n\nMan, y'all are sad people. \n\"Get off the road!\" Okay, now we are on the sidewalk. \n\"Get off the sidewalk!\" Back in the road again. \n\"They need to ring their bells so we know they're coming! Btw I hate it when they ring their bells so I know they're coming.\"",
">\n\nI hate cyclists like that. I don’t have a car so my bike is my main source of transportation and I don’t ride like that. So far, from what I’ve noticed in my area, I’m the only one that follows the damn rules in my city xD",
">\n\nNo matter where you are and who you are… driver or walker, scooter or flyer… we ALL hate cyclists.",
">\n\nI feel ya. The only thing I hate more than cyclists is electric scooters.",
">\n\nCompletely agree! A cycling license (similar to driving) should be required. Far too many cyclist who doesn’t know (and those who don’t just give a F) about traffic rules.",
">\n\nI completely agree! Cyclists have a lot of rights on the roads, and are very vocal about them, but think they can do whatever the fuck they want at roundabouts and pedestrian crossings.",
">\n\nIt just fascinates me how anyone can walk or drive through a city and genuinely think that bicycles are the problem. Look around you at every turn there are cars jamming the roads. Parked blocking things. Blocking pavements. Driving aggressively. Speeding. Failing to stop. Polluting the air. If they hit you, you are seriously injured or dead. This happens in the thousands. The city absolutely revolves around them.",
">\n\nYou are 100% right. Except I didn't say bicycles are the problem. I said i hate them. I said fuck cars too. I also said bicycles are one of the best alternative for trafic jam in cities.\nCities in Europe weren't made for cars nor bikes. So the problem is the fucking lazy greedy people who decide how to spend our tax money. The problem is people thinking they are all alone on the street. The problem is how stressed everybody is and how it become dangerous.\nNot because I hate how cyclists take revenge from drivers bullies to pedestrians makes me hate a transportation model itself.",
">\n\nIt just seems odd that people can really harp on about cyclists when they are such a trivial issue. Posts like this can get hundreds of replies. People tend to make excuses about cars.",
">\n\nYou just insulted a whole country.",
">\n\nThe Netherlands? It's ok",
">\n\nOk",
">\n\nI judge the actions of the individual not the mode of transport. I find it produces more accurate results.",
">\n\nApparently \"individuals alone are responsible for their own actions\" is the real unpopular opinion here.",
">\n\nIndeed 😀",
">\n\nAs a car driver I also hate cyclists. Saw one on a 45mph the other day despite there being a sidewalk AND a bikelane",
">\n\n45 mph isn't a speed for bike lane or sidewalk. Street is",
">\n\nas a cyclist, I hate pedestrians.\nMy city put in these nice protected bicycle lanes so bikes don't have to ride inches from cars, and boy don't those pedestrians just LOVE using the bike lane as a queuing up spot for the crosswalks. it's just so nice and convenient to get 5 more feet closer to your goal, isn't it? Those bicycles can stop and wait...and feel free to swear at them like THEY are the ones in the wrong.\nBicycles and pedestrians are natural enemies, that's never going to change. There can be only one.",
">\n\nLET'S END THIS NOW !!!!!",
">\n\nanyplace but Holy Ground.",
">\n\ndon't blame all bicyclists for the shitty ones.\nthat would be like saying every person who drives a car is an asshole. or every person who walks on the sidewalk is an asshole.\nsome people are good at getting around. other people are jerks. don't blame everyone for the actions of a small subset of people.",
">\n\nI mean, isn’t that the sentiment over that the popular sub r/fuckcars? The generalization is already being perpetuated from cyclists and “urbanists” in their war against cars.",
">\n\nNot really. That sub mostly hates the focus on cars when designing infrastructure, as well as the forced dependency on cars in our modern world. Not individual drivers.",
">\n\nSure about that? It’s mostly just a bitch-fest about driver errors to further their political agenda.",
">\n\nYea, I'm pretty sure.",
">\n\nReally weird way to get there if that’s the case. Alienating a large portion of the population (car drivers, car riders, people that depend on vehicles for the delivery of goods and services) is not how you get them on your side.",
">\n\nI don't think that's their goal in the first place. It's just a reddit sub.",
">\n\nEspecially when they have a stupid fucking bell and say \"on the left\" then proceed to be on the right side of the trail running into you",
">\n\nHahahha \"is he coming on the left or should i go on the lef...\" BANG!!",
">\n\nGF lives in a college town. It’s as if there’s some kinda fuckin’ death wish among the student cycling population",
">\n\nAs a [insert anyone, including cyclist], I hate cyclists.",
">\n\nPeople don't wanna hear it when it comes from automobilists because \"gngn cars are more dangerous and drivers are entitled\" but reality is cyclists are just the worst. Whether I'm on foot, driving a car, or riding a bicycle myself, cyclists are always always the ones being absolute public hazards. Heck, when I'm on my bike and stop at the stop sign on a cycle lane to let the cars go, they look at me as if I'm jesus or something. They even try to let me pass first because of how used they are to cyclists who just can't be bothered to respect the damn stop sign.",
">\n\nThe problem isn't the cyclists here, it's the lacking infrastructure.",
">\n\nWe shouldn't have to build infrastructure so people can partake in recreation. I find that comment extremely arrogant. Why on earth do cyclists deserve to have their recreation glorified and catered to??",
">\n\nRecreation? Ah yes, cycling is only for recreation.",
">\n\nWell, where I live that I'd the ONLY purpose. I'm 17 miles from any city municipality. Nobody is biking here to go to the grocery store or work.",
">\n\nNot everything is about you personally.",
">\n\nTo me, it is, and should be. My concern is around how cyclists inconvenience me while I'm trying to be a productive member of society. I feel like that's a fair critique.",
">\n\nYou are mad that cyclists inconvenience you yet you reject dedicated infrastructure as a solution. Do you think cyclists should be banned off the road completely?",
">\n\nThe real issue here is lacking cycling infrastructure.",
">\n\nDefinitely a major issue.\nBut part of the issue is definitely cyclists who prioritize their own speed over the safety and welfare of everyone around them. It's like they are all BMW drivers, deep down, and just don't want to yield to or slow down for anyone.",
">\n\nI'm sure there are, assholes exist in all vehicle types.",
">\n\nCyclists know thar neither the pavement nor the road are theirs because motorists and pedestrians like you are both screaming at them all the time. And I swear you'd be angrier if they didn't give a polite warning that they're coming toward you. \nCyclists who breeze through crossings instead of stopping are a minority, much like cyclists are a minority in general, and you can't judge an entire group that aren't adequately represented",
">\n\nFuck traveling in general",
">\n\nYa. Where are our transporters! \nSorry had to go full nerd.",
">\n\nI see posts like this constantly. It blows my mind people can just choose one thing that is so insignificant to scapegoat. \nThey assume people on bikes don’t also walk, drive, etc like we are essentially subhuman for doing exercise / running errands in this way because they are inconvenienced for a few seconds. You realize we are human like you , right?\nPeople tell us to ride bicycles on the sidewalk when it’s illegal while others say not too. It’s usually against the law.\nThey tell us to ride closer to the right side of the road , so we get hit by a car door and yelled at again. \nThey’re mad that we give a verbal signal that we’re coming up on the left even though that’s the law. \nNow that I’m in Colorado I’m getting yelled at for the Idaho stop, which is completely legal. We yield to stop signs and temporarily stop at red lights only if it’s clear. It’s all to REDUCE CAR TRAFFIC. \nKeep in mind we are riding bicycles which in its own right REDUCES CAR TRAFFIC. \n80% of car trips are within 3 miles from your house. Everyone that rides a bike keeps you from being stuck behind them in traffic for longer then the 20 seconds you’re currently inconvenienced. It’s also mean parking closer to the front door of a shop. \nSo far I’ve had family members die from hit and runs and drunk drivers, but somehow cyclists are the most dangerous thing on the road today?! It’s not adding up.\nWhat is this really about?",
">\n\nI'm sorry for your losses. I never said bikers are the most dangerous things on the road. Saying this would be stupid. The problem in my city is the lack of respect from cyclists to pedestrians in a general way. I'm not even talking about drivers against EVERYTHING ON THE STREET.",
">\n\nI go out of my way to be respectful to everybody, and I’ve had nothing but kindness and respect from other cyclists .\nYou wanna blame everybody on a bicycle for all your problems when it’s really just about a few people who disrespected you. \nCyclists are drivers, walkers, etc. do they just jump on a bicycle and instantly become disrespectful?\nStill doesn’t make any logical sense.",
">\n\nDude you just don't get it.. i understand biking is your life.. but come on.\nI use to bike 40km per day to work. \nI don't have problems with people jumping on bikes. I simply hate the ones that are disrespectful.\nIs it too hard to understand? Just me venting coz I feel like a lot of bikers think they are on top of the citizen pyramid? \nI'm not venting about the system here, nor about cars.. just about some (yes some) bikers.\nAnd please there is no need to beg for upvotes on fuckcars how old are you?",
">\n\nI bet your fat.",
">\n\nOf course I fart !",
">\n\nTo you yours and to mine mine; I hate car users and their ilk who are filled with wonton waste and hate for all else who dare travel near them. I stop at all lights, halt for all signs, use a mirror, lights, and hand signals, pull over for cars coming my way so long as there is any room, and use what little biking infrastructure is available to me.\nMy taxes are waste and paid in folly for they assuredly go in portion to your reckless use of a powerful machine and not to my own reckless use of a small self-propelled stick on two wheels to separate lanes and keep them maintained. No, no, I must settle for the gutter and cry glee for that and be ashamed to move to the sidewalk when it suddenly ends and continues a block later down the road. \nFuck your car, your roads, and your selfish desire to pave the world and create cities with 60% of their coverage dedicated to driving a car, parking a car, and separating the world into places for cars and otherwise. You who drive faster and faster, in bigger and bigger cars. I loath you as you loath mine.",
">\n\nI wouldn’t hate cyclists if they didn’t act like road laws don’t apply to em in the city where I live. I’ve seen cyclists not even stop at red lights even with an almost full intersection, and ride the wrong way down one ways.\nEdit: I do wish the city where I live had more bike lanes but yeah.",
">\n\nIf you're going to hate someone, maybe hate the people actually doing those things.\nIf I see someone on a bike rush through a short break on a red light in an otherwise busy intersection, I shake my head and think they are an idiot. I think this while waiting for the light to turn green on my bike.\nSimilarly, when a car illegally stops in a bike lane (which happens ALL THE TIME by the way), I don't turn around and blame the cars moving along legally in the adjacent lane.",
">\n\nPedestrian are the worst.\nWhen i started using bicicle I was very polite: brake, ring, ask for permission. And what the large amount of people do? Ignore u, watch u in the eyes and take a step in the fucking middle of the trail (many many times! for real!), shout at you just because u exist. So.... At some point is fuck you all, I'm coming go out of the way. That's it",
">\n\n\nI will never drive nor park on a bike lane, always look into the mirror to be careful of one of you monkeys. So why can't you be careful when us peasants are walking?\n\nThis is dumb. Obviously there are plenty of cyclists who are careful and courteous about your safety. That's part of what a bell or \"watch out!\" (generally \"On your left\") is doing for you. And just because you are courteous to them doesn't mean everyone is. Is every driver a douchebag just because some of them crowd cyclists when and where the cyclist has the right to the road? No.",
">\n\nThe difference here is that generally car drivers are going to be held accountable for bad driving. This is in the form of dash cams, ANPR and red light cameras which catch drivers doing bad things and they can receive a fine or points on their licence. Cyclists currently can't be held accountable if they jump red lights or hit a car or pedestrian as there isn't anything that helps identify them. This is a big issue in cities. I live and work in London and see many cyclists jumping red lights and weaving around pedestrians crossing. Cars can't do this as most traffic lights have red light cameras that would catch this.\nDrivers as a collective (including me) are in no way perfect or even held to account 100% of the time, but I believe we need a system for cyclists to be held accountable too",
">\n\nYour way of thinking, while perfectly rational and natural, is outdated. Traffic law enforcement, like any other law enforcement, is less about the enforcement, and more about the prevention. Where I live, speed and red light cameras are clearly marked ahead so that the people who'd normally break the law follow it instead, making punishment unnecessary. \nSame could be done with cyclists. Sure, you could make every cyclist install a license plate, require a \"cycling license\", or install expensive cameras with facial identification software, but how about just make it so cyclists aren't incentivised to break the law in the first place? \nMake more useful cycling infrastructure, and more cyclists will use it. Make that infrastructure intersect with foot and motor traffic more safely and less often, and less collisions will happen.",
">\n\nI completely understand your point. However, a lot of money has gone into my local area for cycling infrastructure that most cyclists are using, but many are still choosing to break the rules as the rules are inconvenient. The infrastructure is not enough, there needs to be an incentive NOT to break the rules.\nIf you take a look at Chiswick High Road in London, England. They have created segregated cycle lanes from the traffic. These cycle lanes have their own lights and crossings to keep them safe from cars. However many cyclists just ignore the lights and just keep going into pedestrians. There is no punishment for them doing this as they can't be tracked. Personally I think every cyclist should have to register their bike (make it free to help encourage this) and then a new form of ANPR used to also catch cyclists in the act",
">\n\nPersonally I'd have no problem registering my bike for free, especially if I could use that same registration if it gets stolen, but registering something as mechanically simple and cheap as a bicycle is, in my opinion difficult if not impossible to do without making the bike mechanically complex and expensive, at which point most people would just switch to scooters.\nI don't live in London, but from what I've heard, by far the biggest threat in the city is still motorized traffic, namely cars and lorries, and so until that problem is no longer a problem, I wouldn't really do anything special about bikes. Maybe put some undercover bike cops near the most dangerous bike path/lane intersections to catch a few offenders and make an example out of them, but that's about it.",
">\n\nMost cars I’ve driven came equipped with brakes and a steering wheel. I don’t see the problem",
">\n\nA common take and a stupid one.\nThere are good and bad drivers, pedestrians, and cyclists. Hating any of them as a group because some of them do bad things is just dumb.",
">\n\nIf you followed the laws and stayed out of the bike lane as a pedestrian there would be no problem.",
">\n\nIf bicyclists followed the laws and stopped ignoring street signs/traffic lights there would be no problem.",
">\n\nDon’t see how this address the problem with pedestrians in bike lanes.",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Drivers pedestrians other cyclists. They're a scourge.",
">\n\nEvery word of this is pure wisdom.",
">\n\nAs a car driver, I too hate cyclists.\nI don't care who has 'right of way'. I'm in a car, you're not. If we collide, regardless of fault, you're the one that dies.\nDo you really want to die on the hill that says \"i can bike on the rode b/c it's legal\"?\nI might be in jail, but you're still dead.\nBikes don't belong on public roads. Unless there's a bike lane - aka, a pathway designed specifically for bikers.\nIt's FAR SAFER to bike on the sidewalk.",
">\n\nBe careful you’ll anger r/fuckcars",
">\n\nI recently got a bike in Japan and there isn't any room on the street to ride my bike. Most people are fine when I'm on the sidewalk, however, the worst ones are groups of 2 or more who try and take up as much space as possible allowing nobody to pass. Same with the people who constantly switch between the left and right side of the sidewalk. It's really annoying to see how little spacial awareness they have.",
">\n\nCyclists on the road don’t have to pass the same test as vehicles on the road, which is why they are so bad. If there was a test in order to cycle on the road then i think it would be alot better",
">\n\nWhy do you hate all cyclists when only some of them are rude/dangerous?",
">\n\nCope hehe",
">\n\nIt's the powered vehicles that kill most pedestrians.\nBut, sure, cyclists blahblah...",
">\n\nAs an occasional cyclist, I don't like you either.",
">\n\nI biked everywhere.....when I was a child. I'm an adult now and have an automobile. They are pretty neat.",
">\n\nWhen I used to have to walk to work I’d walk on the sidewalk and listen to music and one time this guy zipped right by me yelling almost knocking me over and flipped me off?? They act like they don’t have breaks lmao",
">\n\nholy smokes! glad you're ok",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Even cyclists.",
">\n\nAnd here i thought why the f pediatrician hate cyclists",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Even other cyclists.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist this thread is hilarious",
">\n\nAnyone got recommendations for how to be a nice, considerate cyclist besides being careful and non-entitled? I plan on starting when it gets warm outside."
] |
>
When I drive to work, I obey most of the rules. I just can't drive on some roads. That would either kill me at some point or I'd slow down a whole 60 km/h lane that's packed with traffic. When riding on the sidewalk, I always stop or get off my bike if it gets too crowded or the sidewalk narrows. But when no one is around I just keep driving normally, just slower than usual. I try to stay alert at all times and let everyone pass because I know I'm wrong here.
At one point there is a one-way street I'm not allowed to drive on, but as my alternatives are the same 60km/h road (but now also with rails) or a crowded sidewalk, I prefer the one-way street with maybe 4 cars per hour that I can easily avoid. After that there is finally a bike path until I get to work. There would be a legal route, but it would take twice, if not triple, the time.
I also hate reckless cyclists. They have already endangered me and are often unfriendly assholes. I just don't have a death wish and don't want to drive a route in an hour if 20 minutes are possible in a safe way (If the brain gets used).
|
[
"I road cycled for years, I always followed the street rules. Always. Red light means red light. \nI have so many cycling friends who get into accidents and other conflicts with drivers, and yet they think it’s stupid to stop at a red light. They just don’t connect these two things",
">\n\nMost bikers I encounter are complete idiots. Like I'd be driving normally and out of nowhere comes a biker on a crosswalk in full speed. Now, I appreciate bikers who actually stop and make eye contact with me as I'm driving towards the crosswalk but man, it's either that or the biker almost dies because I have no time to brake.\nAnd what's up with all the bikers going like 5 kmh IN THE MIDDLE of a road when there's a dedicated sidewalk for bikers right next to them? Drives me insane.",
">\n\nIt seems like most bikers because of observation bias.\nIf you follow the rules as you should, you’re unmemorable.\nAs for the sidewalks - its actually less safe on the sidewalk.",
">\n\nInteresting. Dangerous situations are more valuable to remember, and I remember tons of irresponsible bikers. It is in fact observation bias. But I'm always happy to see those who pay close attention to traffic, and I do remeber some of them aswell.",
">\n\nWell the same goes for driving. How many cars do you remember when they haven’t done anything? But you tend to remember the ones who do something dumb",
">\n\nYeah it can be applied to anything really.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist in one of the most bike-dense cities in the world, I hate cyclists too. If I could avoid getting myself hurt, I’d be ramming at least ten of them a day just to teach a lesson about ignoring rules and common sense.",
">\n\nAmsterdam? Copenhagen?",
">\n\nCopenhagen. It’s a wonderful bike city but the people are incredibly self-centered.",
">\n\nI had high expectations from cyclists when I first visited the city, after all it is heralded as a cycling paradise and, well, let’s say it looked a lot more like the rest of the world and mainly because of the personal behavior of cyclists.\nMy local friend justified it, stating that it’s because danish are more temperamental than all other Scandinavians: an explanation that I really didn’t know what to do with…",
">\n\nIf “temperamental” means “a bunch of egotistical [insert unflattering body part]”, he’s right.",
">\n\nYou make it sound like a war zone. I live in Copenhagen and most of the time biking around the city is very pleasant. Except for the food delivery scooters, they can 🤬 off.",
">\n\nI guess it depends on how often and where you’re going. If you have places to be each and every day and want to get there effectively, people ignoring general rules and courtesies of the road are a pain. If you’re one of the types listening to podcasts with a latte in one hand and a phone in the other just trudging along, it’s probably fine.",
">\n\nSame! I love walking. Where I live on popular trails, there are bike lanes, but the cyclists will just ride wherever they. They don’t care and won’t let you know they’re coming. They’ll get pissy if you don’t just automatically know they’re coming up from behind you. If you do much as step foot in the bike lane, they get mad, but have no problems riding side by side outside the bike lane.",
">\n\nSame here! So much for my pleasant walk on the beautiful Trail. They sneak up and when they're almost on top of me, a loud voice yells \"On your left!\" They startle the shit out of me and cause me to jump sky high! 😡",
">\n\nIt’s literally the law to say that. This thread is all about hating them no matter if they follow the law or not.",
">\n\nIs it possible to do that without sneaking up on them and startling the shit out of them by yelling real loud? And then cutting is close to them as you possibly can without hitting them?",
">\n\nHello. \nMy useless comment to this post is here :D\nSo, i work in the accidents department of a big insurance company. My country is very strickt about the road rules, meaning:\nOur company estimates (is this the right word?) that around 82% of accidents involving cyclists, are to blame on the cyclist. Since there are expecific places on the road for you to ride your bike, even if it's not a bike lane.\nI remember a case where 3 dudes were just cycling, outside of town and they were literally on the middle of the road. the place where they were is full of curves and has very little visibility, so they were riding side by side, middle of the road, comes a car, hits not one, but the 3 of them because they scared the person and she just swerved the car.\nThey sued her and us (insurance) 2 times. Lost both and had to pay for all damage done on the car by their own bodys",
">\n\nThis sounds like something that happened near by my home town, are you in Ontario?",
">\n\nno XD portugal",
">\n\nGod its so much worse that it's happened in multiple places.\nIn ours I think the driver killed one of the cyclists, then sued the family for emotional damage",
">\n\nMy biggest gripe about cyclists is that there is always some danger when you encounter them on the road, either as a pedestrian or motorist. Now, part of it isn’t their fault. At least here in the US, not much of the infrastructure is made for bicycles. But cyclists are constantly breaking the rules of the road (or sidewalk) to get where they’re going faster. Blowing red lights, leaving the bike lane to use the sidewalk, splitting lanes. I always clench a little when I approach one, wondering if this is the day I can’t get out of the way.",
">\n\nWe have that same problem, but then a million times worse, because I live in The Netherlands. You probably know about our proud cycling culture (the Amsterdam stereotype). And yes, cyclists here are just as bad as the ones you describe, but there’s a lot more of them here. And oh yeah, traffic laws are almost always in their favor.",
">\n\nI found driving in the towns of the Netherlands so hard. Not just because I was on the wrong side of the road 😉 but because I just wasn’t used to sooo many cyclists coming from all directions, always faster than me and passing on both sides. Even as I was signalling to leave a roundabout at one point about three cyclists rode past on the inside. I really struggled to keep up with them all, which of course means I drove slower and thus even more bikes passed me!",
">\n\nYes that is of course very difficult, however as a Dutchman I’m used to cyclists, so of course we struggle a lot less. But that doesn’t take away from the fact that cyclists do cause a lot of issues because of their careless behavior, and because as drivers we have to accommodate them. That one sided ‘deal’ that we have makes it very difficult to deal with them.\nAll in all I’m happy we have so many cyclists as it’s good for the environment. But the utopian mindset of cyclists being a gift to the world is just stupid. Especially when you consider that mostly Americans who drive on wide open roads with barely any cyclists around are the ones praising cyclists in my country all the time. Also, cyclists annoy the hell out of pedestrians as well, so it’s not just about motorists.",
">\n\nCyclists treat red lights like stop signs and stop signs like yield signs (at best). They’re not allowed on sidewalks but do it anyway. Fuckin hate cyclists.",
">\n\nEverything you said is completely legal in Denver and sidewalks are illegal , but drivers constantly scream at cyclists to ride there",
">\n\nCyclist can roll stop signs and run red lights in Denver? What the fuck?",
">\n\nI’d have no problem if cyclist had respect for other road users. where I live there are cycle lanes, but most cyclists are on the road or pavements, they ignore red lights etc. \nIf you want to cycle please make it’s safe for yourself and others around you.",
">\n\nExactly my thoughts",
">\n\nHonestly, selfish assholes exist everywhere but a selfish asshole on a bicycle does a lot less damage than a selfish asshole in a car. \nEDIT: OP's also downvoting everyone who disagrees with him, just fyi.",
">\n\nAs a pedestrian, I hate everyone who's not a pedestrian... And some pedestrians too.",
">\n\nThere's a reason so many cyclists die each year, they all seem to pick and choose which laws they want to follow. Its always safer to assume they'll do whatever they want and everyone else needs to adapt to them.",
">\n\nAs a driver downtown, I don't worry at all about pedestrians at intersections, I can turn my head and assume they will be maybe five feet closer to my car when I look back, (and I trust they won't sprint towards me when I look away, at their own peril), but bikes, they ride so fast, that in the short time I turn my head to check for oncoming traffic, a bike could materialize right beside / infront me, and I risk hitting them or them hitting the side of my car. And that's even in their designated bike lane, that I have to pass through to clear the intersection. And if I drive into a ped at three miles per hour, they will just hit my hood with their fist and call me a stupid motherfucker, or whatever makes them feel justice was served, but if I bump the bike, it will be a big crash, the bicyclist will be all curled up in a ball on the ground, I'll be the bad guy in the eyes of the law and anyone nearby, and I'll probably be late as fuck to wherever it is I'm trying to go to.",
">\n\nI skateboard so I guess I'm good",
">\n\nJust don’t inconvenience narcissistic car drivers by a few seconds.",
">\n\nI think everyone hates cyclists. Cyclists included.",
">\n\nAs a driver, I hate you both",
">\n\nPedestrians are literally the worst. Anyone who has to walk more than 20 feet a day and not to their car are complete losers, and should be jailed on site.",
">\n\nOK, I think that's a bit extreme. But hey, if you're running for public office I'll vote for you. \nI do have to wonder anytime I see someone that I know has the mental faculties to drive who is walking. Usually assume too many DUI's.",
">\n\nr/fuckcars ripping out their hair rn",
">\n\nNot unpopular.\n Everyone hates cyclists.",
">\n\nI casually cycle in the summer. If I'm on a trail, I'll slow down and ring my bell if I see pedestrians, or stop and dismount if there's a lot of people or they don't notice me. Especially on the narrow trails in this woodlot I sometimes go to. \nThe problem is a lot of cyclists, especially in North America, but perhaps other places, just aren't respectful of others. They demand car drivers \"share the road\", but then ride in huge packs, lane split, don't signal turns, run stop signs and red lights, weave in and out of traffic, boot up busy sidewalks at 15-20mph, refuse to use provided bike lanes, etc. There's like a gross sense of entitlement in the cycling community. Dude, you're still a vehicle. There's rules that apply to you, just like there are for cars and motorcycles. Big problem is difficulty/lack of enforcement. Cops have to catch them in the act. Even then they're slippery devils since they're usually more mobile than a cruiser or beat cop on foot. This is why I support plating bikes to make them easily identifiable.",
">\n\n\nThere's like a gross sense of entitlement in the cycling community. Dude, you're still a vehicle. There's rules that apply to you, just like there are for cars and motorcycles.\n\nThat is the problem right there. They want to be treated equal to car owners, yet they do not abide by traffic rules, hence all the accidents.",
">\n\nAs a driver, I concur.",
">\n\nI hate bikers on trails. They're supposed to stop and let hikers by but they never do. They go by so freakin' fast too. It's like come on now!",
">\n\nAs a mostly former cyclist, I often hated cyclists too. Mostly, because so many cyclist are just competitive asshats that suck the pleasure out of their own bike ride by making everything about speed. Like, heaven forbid they have to slow and yield to anyone.\nOnce, I was riding my bicycle with my young daughter on a bike path in the city. A couple cyclist came up and got all pissy at us, saying we need to be out of the cycle lane because we were going too slow and my 8 year old kid wasn't keeping to a narrow lane. It was so hostile - my kid started crying.\nBut that is just so typical, all the time. I've gotten yelled out a few times when I made a full, foot down stop at a redlight because the cyclist behind me was expecting me to either run the redlight or at least go into the crosswalk and dance around (like they do) until it went green. I remember nearly getting run over by cyclists all the time, and yelled at if I was going too slow.\nThat being said, we need to do 100,000 x more in the US towards making bike paths, protected bike lanes, etc., because cyling is a truly great way to get around and I miss it. I just don't miss the self-centered asshats that dominate the cycling community.",
">\n\nThis!",
">\n\nI’ve nothing against cyclists as a group. I prefer to hate all people who do stupid things whether they’re in cars, on bikes or walking. Went to pick my daughter up tonight and counted six cyclists in the dark wearing all black with no lights at all plus one with a light so weak I didn’t see it until I was nearly past him. Tonight it was dumb cyclists, but tomorrow it might be idiots in cars. Hate the idiots not the method of transportation.",
">\n\nTrue !",
">\n\nOMG YES !! I completely agree. Every time i tried to explain this to a friend, they would always look at me like I am crazy for thinking such a thing. But as I walk for 45 minutes every days, it became a reality you can't ignore... I can't count how many times I nearly got hit by a cyclist, it happens every other week. I am starting to think that cyclists should have to go through a \"course\" to learn the basics of using the streets x)\n(Sorry for mistakes, not native here 'x) )",
">\n\nThis is my story lol..",
">\n\nYes, and it also is my personal experience, which is why I posted this..?",
">\n\nYes I totally agree. Just saying \"that's my life\" :) happening in Brussels tho",
">\n\nMy bad x) welp France here, it amazes me in a really bad way how this seems to be such a common phenomenon literaly EVERYWHERE",
">\n\nJ'ai roulé en vélo à Paris et laisse tomber l'enfer que c'était. J'avais l'impression d'avancer avec des oies qui insultaient tout le monde. BAa bAAA BAaaAa !!! \nLe problème c'est que plus les gens sont stressés (même les piétons... Genre dans le metro) plus ils se haïssent et ce matin j'avais la haine sur les vélos.. en vrai j'ai la haine sur tous les citadins haha",
">\n\nas a cyclist I hate everyone",
">\n\nSame, I see posts like this where people tell us to ride on the sidewalk when it’s illegal. \nThey assume we don’t walk anywhere, drive, etc like we are essentially subhuman for doing exercise.\nThey tell us to ride closer to the right side of the road so we get hit by a car door. \nThey’re mad that we give a verbal signal that we’re coming up on the left even though that’s the law. \nnow that I’m in Colorado I’m getting yelled at for the Idaho stop, which is completely legal. We yield to stop signs and temporarily stop at red light only till it’s clear. It’s all to REDUCE CAR TRAFFIC.\nSo far I’ve had family members die from hit and runs and drunk drivers, but somehow cyclists are the most dangerous thing on the road today.\nWhat is this really about?",
">\n\nI loathe cyclists. Selfish, entitled lycra lunatics.",
">\n\nBe honest, do you realize that it's possible to ride a bicycle and not be selfish, or entitled, or a lunatic, or not wear lycra?",
">\n\nThis thread is such a circlejerk, it's ridiculous.",
">\n\nThat's what I'm here for",
">\n\nIt's because cycling isn't regulated like motor vehicles are but they still get on the roads unlike pedestrians. So they don't have knowledge on the rules of the road that drivers have.\nThere's also some sort of hypocrisy they have where they believe drivers should give way to them because bikes are more vulnerable than cars while expecting pedestrians to give way to them because they're moving faster.",
">\n\n\nSo they don't have knowledge on the rules of the road\n\nPlenty do. Many cyclists also are automobilists. They just feel like they're exempted from respecting trafic rules because it's tiring to stop and go on a bike and they're slower an lighter than cars.",
">\n\nSure you got hit by a truck, but at least you managed to save yourself a little time and avoid waiting for a few seconds. Is what I'd say if they didn't then end up in the hospital",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists, as it should be.",
">\n\nCyclists shouldn’t be on sidewalks",
">\n\nI also cringe a lot when I see the international Reddit community constantly praise us Dutch people for our biking culture. People have no idea how many traffic accidents we get that could have been avoided if we didn’t have cyclists EVERYWHERE who are barely aware of the traffic rules that also apply to them.\nPeople have no idea about how cyclists are almost always right according to our traffic laws, which makes them much more reckless. They cause millions of dollars of damage to cars (and pedestrians) each year, and barely ever face consequences for their irresponsible and reckless behavior in traffic.\nPeople don’t see how cyclists often block traffic because they like to cycle next to each other in pairs, and if you honk they get angry and sometimes even aggressive and try to break your side mirror if they feel like it.\nMany intersections have bicycle lanes that you need to check when making a turn when driving, even though the intersection is already super busy with lots of cars. And guess what, cyclists still ride around fast and recklessly and making sure you don’t hit another car, cyclist AND pedestrian is all the job of one single driver.\nSo all in all, people from countries where driving is a relatively easy and chill thing to do, praise cycling culture in other countries. Try to drive here in busy traffic with thousands of cars AND (RECKLESS) CYCLISTS on the road and then tell me what it’s like.",
">\n\nIt would be much easier to sympathize with cars drivers if they did not need like 60% of the entire transit space leaving cyclists and pedestrians very little.\n\neven though the intersection is already super busy with lots of cars\n\nOfc, because cars are so large and need so much space.",
">\n\nI get that, but why is that my fault? I don’t do the city planning. Besides, cars are much larger than bicycles, so doesn’t it make sense there’s more space needed for cars than for bicycles?\nBut even then, if you don’t want to have any sympathy for motorists, because city planners give them more space than others, that’s just weird. It’s not the motorist’s fault.",
">\n\n\ndoesn’t it make sense there’s more space needed for cars than for bicycles?\n\nWhy a valuable and scarce resource such as the public space in cities should be used predominantly to benefit car users while barring everyone else? \nI just find it much harder to sympathize with the privileged group.",
">\n\nBecause people need to be able to go from A to B?",
">\n\nSo do pedestrians/public transport users/cyclists. But they don't require so much space per person.",
">\n\nWell in The Netherlands public transportation takes up an enormous amount of space and cyclists have their own dedicated lanes almost everywhere. Also motorists have to give public transportation space as we usually have to stop for trams and buses to pass, according to traffic rules. Guess who doesn’t often follow those rules: cyclists.\nHowever, public transportation itself is super busy and unbelievably expensive in The Netherlands. It costs more than 20 Euros to travel ~70 kilometers. That’s why a lot of people still prefer to have a car, and cars simply need infrastructure.\nSo I don’t really get your point. Cars, bicycles and public transportation all get a fair portion of the space that’s available.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist, i hate pedestrians. Here in Germany, there is bike lanes, one part for bikes and one for pedestrians on traffic lights... etc. But the pedestrians just ignore them, form \"walls\" of people blocking the bike lane, dont look while crossing the bike lane. Even cars repect us more than you.",
">\n\nThis I understand. Experienced the same in Denmark",
">\n\nClaaaaaarksoooooonnnnn",
">\n\nIdk about other places but here cyclists are constantly breaking the law and never getting ticketed for it. It makes no sense to me. I don’t think it’d make a huge difference but I do think some cyclists would think twice about disregarding the rules if those rules were actually enforced.",
">\n\nI get the sentiment. My feeling is the root cause is they don’t have their own infrastructure. Cars and peds do. So cyclists are always forced into a non ideal path. \nI’m aware they have rights to the road but cars and bikes really struggle to share an infrastructure clearly made for cars. \nSo if we invest in cycling infrastructure everyone would probably be happier.",
">\n\ndoubt it. In my city there is an asphalt bike path for miles that is like 8 feet wide. Smooth. No stop signs. Do they use it? nope they get their collective ass out on the street and I honestly don't have a clue why.\nIt defies logic. Safter, smooth, not cars/trunks, etc. Here they are out on the street just fiddle farting down a 45 mph road like they own it with a bike path 15 feet away with no one on it. The last guy I asked said \"It is my road as well you know\" that I ran up on while I was at a crossing while riding on the path myself. I just gave up trying to understand. Someone dies on that road every couple of months from bike or pedestrian strike with a vehicle. It was the whole reason they built the path....",
">\n\nWell in my experience there are 2 thing going on there.\na) Often bikers will avoid the path because peds often share or walk across those paths and their speed is closer to that of a car than a ped or \nb) If they are commuting...the path likely isn't going exactly where they need to.\nAs to your specific scenario I don't doubt there are bikers that are hard headed and stubborn. I know a few of those. But generally I do bikers using the infrastructure where we have built it.",
">\n\nThere's an accident here involving @ car running over a cyclist who crossed a red traffic light. And guess who take the blame?",
">\n\nLaughs in being dutch",
">\n\nIt is regrettable that a handful of asshole cyclists ruins everyone’s opinion of us. It really undermines the support needed to improve infrastructure for cycling. \nIf it is any help, when i ring my bell, I am doing so to avoid the alternatives of either yelling a warning or startling people. I normally exit the path and pass on the grass. I would say that most cyclist are the same. I don’t want you to get out of the way, I want you to know I am there. \nBut it only takes a couple assholes that think they own the path or the street. I have a cousin like this and it is difficult to convince him his is wrong and is putting himself and others in danger.",
">\n\nI think the a-holes are people that are only on a bike because it's the easiest thing for them, living where they do. You and those like you are on the bike because you love cycling.",
">\n\nI live in Portland, OR, and the cyclists here are so fucking rude and entitled.",
">\n\nI live in not-Portland OR and visited once. I biked down the road. Could not believe how nice everyone was to me. Probably because they could tell I’m an outsider.",
">\n\nI meant how they treat everyone else who isn't on a bike, tbh.",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists and it's for a simple reason. They think they can do whatever the hell they want. They switch between a pedestrian, a cyclist and a vehicle deciding on the fly whatever rules they feel like following with no accountability. \nOne minute they are skipping traffic, then they are deciding to cross at a crosswalk instead of following traffic. And the sidewalks are bike lanes if that's more convenient.",
">\n\nI just get annoyed because they will ride double wide on a tight street, forcing you to go 60mph in a 45, on the opposite side of traffic, risking a head on collision. And yea, you have to do that, because otherwise cars behind you will start driving aggressive as well as the fact that your expecting all the cars to go at a bikes speed on the road.",
">\n\nThat's because every country except for the Netherlands and Denmark have shit bicycle infrastructure.",
">\n\nI civilised countries we have cycling paths and cycling on the street is also possible as drivers aren't insane. So this seems rather like a problem of poor urban planning than cyclists in general.",
">\n\nWhere I live the cyclists just refuse to take the bikelane and either block the traffic because the rather use the street or they decide to use the pedestrian side of the sidewalk. The frickin bikelane is as big as the pedestrian one. There is no excuse not to use it and they still won't! One of them almost hit me if I hadn't dodge it. If the cyclist only drove a few inches to the left there would have been a bikelane and it wouldn't happened. Of course the person didn't apologize and just cursed at me.",
">\n\nBike gutters are awful and less safe than taking the lane. Assholes park in the bike lanes ALL THE TIME. Plus no one ever looks behind them when getting out pf their car so getting smacked by a door is a real danger. Drivers are entitled but it’s not their fault it’s the way we’ve built society to allow and expect them to be.\nETA: next time you’re driving around take a count how many people you see pulled over or parked in a bike gutter.",
">\n\nCompletely agree - I was ran over almost 3 times in Berlin. \nAnd every single time I checked before crossing - but they just suddenly spawned right in the way",
">\n\nDid you cross at a designated crosswalk? As a cyclist the amount of times people just randomly meander across an active street instead of going to the zebra/lollipop crossing, and then get angry at me when I have to swerve out the way/ brake is comical.",
">\n\nMan, y'all are sad people. \n\"Get off the road!\" Okay, now we are on the sidewalk. \n\"Get off the sidewalk!\" Back in the road again. \n\"They need to ring their bells so we know they're coming! Btw I hate it when they ring their bells so I know they're coming.\"",
">\n\nI hate cyclists like that. I don’t have a car so my bike is my main source of transportation and I don’t ride like that. So far, from what I’ve noticed in my area, I’m the only one that follows the damn rules in my city xD",
">\n\nNo matter where you are and who you are… driver or walker, scooter or flyer… we ALL hate cyclists.",
">\n\nI feel ya. The only thing I hate more than cyclists is electric scooters.",
">\n\nCompletely agree! A cycling license (similar to driving) should be required. Far too many cyclist who doesn’t know (and those who don’t just give a F) about traffic rules.",
">\n\nI completely agree! Cyclists have a lot of rights on the roads, and are very vocal about them, but think they can do whatever the fuck they want at roundabouts and pedestrian crossings.",
">\n\nIt just fascinates me how anyone can walk or drive through a city and genuinely think that bicycles are the problem. Look around you at every turn there are cars jamming the roads. Parked blocking things. Blocking pavements. Driving aggressively. Speeding. Failing to stop. Polluting the air. If they hit you, you are seriously injured or dead. This happens in the thousands. The city absolutely revolves around them.",
">\n\nYou are 100% right. Except I didn't say bicycles are the problem. I said i hate them. I said fuck cars too. I also said bicycles are one of the best alternative for trafic jam in cities.\nCities in Europe weren't made for cars nor bikes. So the problem is the fucking lazy greedy people who decide how to spend our tax money. The problem is people thinking they are all alone on the street. The problem is how stressed everybody is and how it become dangerous.\nNot because I hate how cyclists take revenge from drivers bullies to pedestrians makes me hate a transportation model itself.",
">\n\nIt just seems odd that people can really harp on about cyclists when they are such a trivial issue. Posts like this can get hundreds of replies. People tend to make excuses about cars.",
">\n\nYou just insulted a whole country.",
">\n\nThe Netherlands? It's ok",
">\n\nOk",
">\n\nI judge the actions of the individual not the mode of transport. I find it produces more accurate results.",
">\n\nApparently \"individuals alone are responsible for their own actions\" is the real unpopular opinion here.",
">\n\nIndeed 😀",
">\n\nAs a car driver I also hate cyclists. Saw one on a 45mph the other day despite there being a sidewalk AND a bikelane",
">\n\n45 mph isn't a speed for bike lane or sidewalk. Street is",
">\n\nas a cyclist, I hate pedestrians.\nMy city put in these nice protected bicycle lanes so bikes don't have to ride inches from cars, and boy don't those pedestrians just LOVE using the bike lane as a queuing up spot for the crosswalks. it's just so nice and convenient to get 5 more feet closer to your goal, isn't it? Those bicycles can stop and wait...and feel free to swear at them like THEY are the ones in the wrong.\nBicycles and pedestrians are natural enemies, that's never going to change. There can be only one.",
">\n\nLET'S END THIS NOW !!!!!",
">\n\nanyplace but Holy Ground.",
">\n\ndon't blame all bicyclists for the shitty ones.\nthat would be like saying every person who drives a car is an asshole. or every person who walks on the sidewalk is an asshole.\nsome people are good at getting around. other people are jerks. don't blame everyone for the actions of a small subset of people.",
">\n\nI mean, isn’t that the sentiment over that the popular sub r/fuckcars? The generalization is already being perpetuated from cyclists and “urbanists” in their war against cars.",
">\n\nNot really. That sub mostly hates the focus on cars when designing infrastructure, as well as the forced dependency on cars in our modern world. Not individual drivers.",
">\n\nSure about that? It’s mostly just a bitch-fest about driver errors to further their political agenda.",
">\n\nYea, I'm pretty sure.",
">\n\nReally weird way to get there if that’s the case. Alienating a large portion of the population (car drivers, car riders, people that depend on vehicles for the delivery of goods and services) is not how you get them on your side.",
">\n\nI don't think that's their goal in the first place. It's just a reddit sub.",
">\n\nEspecially when they have a stupid fucking bell and say \"on the left\" then proceed to be on the right side of the trail running into you",
">\n\nHahahha \"is he coming on the left or should i go on the lef...\" BANG!!",
">\n\nGF lives in a college town. It’s as if there’s some kinda fuckin’ death wish among the student cycling population",
">\n\nAs a [insert anyone, including cyclist], I hate cyclists.",
">\n\nPeople don't wanna hear it when it comes from automobilists because \"gngn cars are more dangerous and drivers are entitled\" but reality is cyclists are just the worst. Whether I'm on foot, driving a car, or riding a bicycle myself, cyclists are always always the ones being absolute public hazards. Heck, when I'm on my bike and stop at the stop sign on a cycle lane to let the cars go, they look at me as if I'm jesus or something. They even try to let me pass first because of how used they are to cyclists who just can't be bothered to respect the damn stop sign.",
">\n\nThe problem isn't the cyclists here, it's the lacking infrastructure.",
">\n\nWe shouldn't have to build infrastructure so people can partake in recreation. I find that comment extremely arrogant. Why on earth do cyclists deserve to have their recreation glorified and catered to??",
">\n\nRecreation? Ah yes, cycling is only for recreation.",
">\n\nWell, where I live that I'd the ONLY purpose. I'm 17 miles from any city municipality. Nobody is biking here to go to the grocery store or work.",
">\n\nNot everything is about you personally.",
">\n\nTo me, it is, and should be. My concern is around how cyclists inconvenience me while I'm trying to be a productive member of society. I feel like that's a fair critique.",
">\n\nYou are mad that cyclists inconvenience you yet you reject dedicated infrastructure as a solution. Do you think cyclists should be banned off the road completely?",
">\n\nThe real issue here is lacking cycling infrastructure.",
">\n\nDefinitely a major issue.\nBut part of the issue is definitely cyclists who prioritize their own speed over the safety and welfare of everyone around them. It's like they are all BMW drivers, deep down, and just don't want to yield to or slow down for anyone.",
">\n\nI'm sure there are, assholes exist in all vehicle types.",
">\n\nCyclists know thar neither the pavement nor the road are theirs because motorists and pedestrians like you are both screaming at them all the time. And I swear you'd be angrier if they didn't give a polite warning that they're coming toward you. \nCyclists who breeze through crossings instead of stopping are a minority, much like cyclists are a minority in general, and you can't judge an entire group that aren't adequately represented",
">\n\nFuck traveling in general",
">\n\nYa. Where are our transporters! \nSorry had to go full nerd.",
">\n\nI see posts like this constantly. It blows my mind people can just choose one thing that is so insignificant to scapegoat. \nThey assume people on bikes don’t also walk, drive, etc like we are essentially subhuman for doing exercise / running errands in this way because they are inconvenienced for a few seconds. You realize we are human like you , right?\nPeople tell us to ride bicycles on the sidewalk when it’s illegal while others say not too. It’s usually against the law.\nThey tell us to ride closer to the right side of the road , so we get hit by a car door and yelled at again. \nThey’re mad that we give a verbal signal that we’re coming up on the left even though that’s the law. \nNow that I’m in Colorado I’m getting yelled at for the Idaho stop, which is completely legal. We yield to stop signs and temporarily stop at red lights only if it’s clear. It’s all to REDUCE CAR TRAFFIC. \nKeep in mind we are riding bicycles which in its own right REDUCES CAR TRAFFIC. \n80% of car trips are within 3 miles from your house. Everyone that rides a bike keeps you from being stuck behind them in traffic for longer then the 20 seconds you’re currently inconvenienced. It’s also mean parking closer to the front door of a shop. \nSo far I’ve had family members die from hit and runs and drunk drivers, but somehow cyclists are the most dangerous thing on the road today?! It’s not adding up.\nWhat is this really about?",
">\n\nI'm sorry for your losses. I never said bikers are the most dangerous things on the road. Saying this would be stupid. The problem in my city is the lack of respect from cyclists to pedestrians in a general way. I'm not even talking about drivers against EVERYTHING ON THE STREET.",
">\n\nI go out of my way to be respectful to everybody, and I’ve had nothing but kindness and respect from other cyclists .\nYou wanna blame everybody on a bicycle for all your problems when it’s really just about a few people who disrespected you. \nCyclists are drivers, walkers, etc. do they just jump on a bicycle and instantly become disrespectful?\nStill doesn’t make any logical sense.",
">\n\nDude you just don't get it.. i understand biking is your life.. but come on.\nI use to bike 40km per day to work. \nI don't have problems with people jumping on bikes. I simply hate the ones that are disrespectful.\nIs it too hard to understand? Just me venting coz I feel like a lot of bikers think they are on top of the citizen pyramid? \nI'm not venting about the system here, nor about cars.. just about some (yes some) bikers.\nAnd please there is no need to beg for upvotes on fuckcars how old are you?",
">\n\nI bet your fat.",
">\n\nOf course I fart !",
">\n\nTo you yours and to mine mine; I hate car users and their ilk who are filled with wonton waste and hate for all else who dare travel near them. I stop at all lights, halt for all signs, use a mirror, lights, and hand signals, pull over for cars coming my way so long as there is any room, and use what little biking infrastructure is available to me.\nMy taxes are waste and paid in folly for they assuredly go in portion to your reckless use of a powerful machine and not to my own reckless use of a small self-propelled stick on two wheels to separate lanes and keep them maintained. No, no, I must settle for the gutter and cry glee for that and be ashamed to move to the sidewalk when it suddenly ends and continues a block later down the road. \nFuck your car, your roads, and your selfish desire to pave the world and create cities with 60% of their coverage dedicated to driving a car, parking a car, and separating the world into places for cars and otherwise. You who drive faster and faster, in bigger and bigger cars. I loath you as you loath mine.",
">\n\nI wouldn’t hate cyclists if they didn’t act like road laws don’t apply to em in the city where I live. I’ve seen cyclists not even stop at red lights even with an almost full intersection, and ride the wrong way down one ways.\nEdit: I do wish the city where I live had more bike lanes but yeah.",
">\n\nIf you're going to hate someone, maybe hate the people actually doing those things.\nIf I see someone on a bike rush through a short break on a red light in an otherwise busy intersection, I shake my head and think they are an idiot. I think this while waiting for the light to turn green on my bike.\nSimilarly, when a car illegally stops in a bike lane (which happens ALL THE TIME by the way), I don't turn around and blame the cars moving along legally in the adjacent lane.",
">\n\nPedestrian are the worst.\nWhen i started using bicicle I was very polite: brake, ring, ask for permission. And what the large amount of people do? Ignore u, watch u in the eyes and take a step in the fucking middle of the trail (many many times! for real!), shout at you just because u exist. So.... At some point is fuck you all, I'm coming go out of the way. That's it",
">\n\n\nI will never drive nor park on a bike lane, always look into the mirror to be careful of one of you monkeys. So why can't you be careful when us peasants are walking?\n\nThis is dumb. Obviously there are plenty of cyclists who are careful and courteous about your safety. That's part of what a bell or \"watch out!\" (generally \"On your left\") is doing for you. And just because you are courteous to them doesn't mean everyone is. Is every driver a douchebag just because some of them crowd cyclists when and where the cyclist has the right to the road? No.",
">\n\nThe difference here is that generally car drivers are going to be held accountable for bad driving. This is in the form of dash cams, ANPR and red light cameras which catch drivers doing bad things and they can receive a fine or points on their licence. Cyclists currently can't be held accountable if they jump red lights or hit a car or pedestrian as there isn't anything that helps identify them. This is a big issue in cities. I live and work in London and see many cyclists jumping red lights and weaving around pedestrians crossing. Cars can't do this as most traffic lights have red light cameras that would catch this.\nDrivers as a collective (including me) are in no way perfect or even held to account 100% of the time, but I believe we need a system for cyclists to be held accountable too",
">\n\nYour way of thinking, while perfectly rational and natural, is outdated. Traffic law enforcement, like any other law enforcement, is less about the enforcement, and more about the prevention. Where I live, speed and red light cameras are clearly marked ahead so that the people who'd normally break the law follow it instead, making punishment unnecessary. \nSame could be done with cyclists. Sure, you could make every cyclist install a license plate, require a \"cycling license\", or install expensive cameras with facial identification software, but how about just make it so cyclists aren't incentivised to break the law in the first place? \nMake more useful cycling infrastructure, and more cyclists will use it. Make that infrastructure intersect with foot and motor traffic more safely and less often, and less collisions will happen.",
">\n\nI completely understand your point. However, a lot of money has gone into my local area for cycling infrastructure that most cyclists are using, but many are still choosing to break the rules as the rules are inconvenient. The infrastructure is not enough, there needs to be an incentive NOT to break the rules.\nIf you take a look at Chiswick High Road in London, England. They have created segregated cycle lanes from the traffic. These cycle lanes have their own lights and crossings to keep them safe from cars. However many cyclists just ignore the lights and just keep going into pedestrians. There is no punishment for them doing this as they can't be tracked. Personally I think every cyclist should have to register their bike (make it free to help encourage this) and then a new form of ANPR used to also catch cyclists in the act",
">\n\nPersonally I'd have no problem registering my bike for free, especially if I could use that same registration if it gets stolen, but registering something as mechanically simple and cheap as a bicycle is, in my opinion difficult if not impossible to do without making the bike mechanically complex and expensive, at which point most people would just switch to scooters.\nI don't live in London, but from what I've heard, by far the biggest threat in the city is still motorized traffic, namely cars and lorries, and so until that problem is no longer a problem, I wouldn't really do anything special about bikes. Maybe put some undercover bike cops near the most dangerous bike path/lane intersections to catch a few offenders and make an example out of them, but that's about it.",
">\n\nMost cars I’ve driven came equipped with brakes and a steering wheel. I don’t see the problem",
">\n\nA common take and a stupid one.\nThere are good and bad drivers, pedestrians, and cyclists. Hating any of them as a group because some of them do bad things is just dumb.",
">\n\nIf you followed the laws and stayed out of the bike lane as a pedestrian there would be no problem.",
">\n\nIf bicyclists followed the laws and stopped ignoring street signs/traffic lights there would be no problem.",
">\n\nDon’t see how this address the problem with pedestrians in bike lanes.",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Drivers pedestrians other cyclists. They're a scourge.",
">\n\nEvery word of this is pure wisdom.",
">\n\nAs a car driver, I too hate cyclists.\nI don't care who has 'right of way'. I'm in a car, you're not. If we collide, regardless of fault, you're the one that dies.\nDo you really want to die on the hill that says \"i can bike on the rode b/c it's legal\"?\nI might be in jail, but you're still dead.\nBikes don't belong on public roads. Unless there's a bike lane - aka, a pathway designed specifically for bikers.\nIt's FAR SAFER to bike on the sidewalk.",
">\n\nBe careful you’ll anger r/fuckcars",
">\n\nI recently got a bike in Japan and there isn't any room on the street to ride my bike. Most people are fine when I'm on the sidewalk, however, the worst ones are groups of 2 or more who try and take up as much space as possible allowing nobody to pass. Same with the people who constantly switch between the left and right side of the sidewalk. It's really annoying to see how little spacial awareness they have.",
">\n\nCyclists on the road don’t have to pass the same test as vehicles on the road, which is why they are so bad. If there was a test in order to cycle on the road then i think it would be alot better",
">\n\nWhy do you hate all cyclists when only some of them are rude/dangerous?",
">\n\nCope hehe",
">\n\nIt's the powered vehicles that kill most pedestrians.\nBut, sure, cyclists blahblah...",
">\n\nAs an occasional cyclist, I don't like you either.",
">\n\nI biked everywhere.....when I was a child. I'm an adult now and have an automobile. They are pretty neat.",
">\n\nWhen I used to have to walk to work I’d walk on the sidewalk and listen to music and one time this guy zipped right by me yelling almost knocking me over and flipped me off?? They act like they don’t have breaks lmao",
">\n\nholy smokes! glad you're ok",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Even cyclists.",
">\n\nAnd here i thought why the f pediatrician hate cyclists",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Even other cyclists.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist this thread is hilarious",
">\n\nAnyone got recommendations for how to be a nice, considerate cyclist besides being careful and non-entitled? I plan on starting when it gets warm outside.",
">\n\nNot unpopular"
] |
>
Cyclists don’t care because unless they get injured there are no real consequences for their actions.
I think that any vehicle, with or without any type of motor, should require a license to operate on a public roadway. Road legal bikes need to be held to quality standards, like cars, and should also be registered. If you wish to ride one on a public roadway it should have a number plate on it. You should have to pass a rider’s ed course proving that you know the rules of the road. There should be a test proving that you can control the vehicle and operate it safely, same as a car or motorcycle.
|
[
"I road cycled for years, I always followed the street rules. Always. Red light means red light. \nI have so many cycling friends who get into accidents and other conflicts with drivers, and yet they think it’s stupid to stop at a red light. They just don’t connect these two things",
">\n\nMost bikers I encounter are complete idiots. Like I'd be driving normally and out of nowhere comes a biker on a crosswalk in full speed. Now, I appreciate bikers who actually stop and make eye contact with me as I'm driving towards the crosswalk but man, it's either that or the biker almost dies because I have no time to brake.\nAnd what's up with all the bikers going like 5 kmh IN THE MIDDLE of a road when there's a dedicated sidewalk for bikers right next to them? Drives me insane.",
">\n\nIt seems like most bikers because of observation bias.\nIf you follow the rules as you should, you’re unmemorable.\nAs for the sidewalks - its actually less safe on the sidewalk.",
">\n\nInteresting. Dangerous situations are more valuable to remember, and I remember tons of irresponsible bikers. It is in fact observation bias. But I'm always happy to see those who pay close attention to traffic, and I do remeber some of them aswell.",
">\n\nWell the same goes for driving. How many cars do you remember when they haven’t done anything? But you tend to remember the ones who do something dumb",
">\n\nYeah it can be applied to anything really.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist in one of the most bike-dense cities in the world, I hate cyclists too. If I could avoid getting myself hurt, I’d be ramming at least ten of them a day just to teach a lesson about ignoring rules and common sense.",
">\n\nAmsterdam? Copenhagen?",
">\n\nCopenhagen. It’s a wonderful bike city but the people are incredibly self-centered.",
">\n\nI had high expectations from cyclists when I first visited the city, after all it is heralded as a cycling paradise and, well, let’s say it looked a lot more like the rest of the world and mainly because of the personal behavior of cyclists.\nMy local friend justified it, stating that it’s because danish are more temperamental than all other Scandinavians: an explanation that I really didn’t know what to do with…",
">\n\nIf “temperamental” means “a bunch of egotistical [insert unflattering body part]”, he’s right.",
">\n\nYou make it sound like a war zone. I live in Copenhagen and most of the time biking around the city is very pleasant. Except for the food delivery scooters, they can 🤬 off.",
">\n\nI guess it depends on how often and where you’re going. If you have places to be each and every day and want to get there effectively, people ignoring general rules and courtesies of the road are a pain. If you’re one of the types listening to podcasts with a latte in one hand and a phone in the other just trudging along, it’s probably fine.",
">\n\nSame! I love walking. Where I live on popular trails, there are bike lanes, but the cyclists will just ride wherever they. They don’t care and won’t let you know they’re coming. They’ll get pissy if you don’t just automatically know they’re coming up from behind you. If you do much as step foot in the bike lane, they get mad, but have no problems riding side by side outside the bike lane.",
">\n\nSame here! So much for my pleasant walk on the beautiful Trail. They sneak up and when they're almost on top of me, a loud voice yells \"On your left!\" They startle the shit out of me and cause me to jump sky high! 😡",
">\n\nIt’s literally the law to say that. This thread is all about hating them no matter if they follow the law or not.",
">\n\nIs it possible to do that without sneaking up on them and startling the shit out of them by yelling real loud? And then cutting is close to them as you possibly can without hitting them?",
">\n\nHello. \nMy useless comment to this post is here :D\nSo, i work in the accidents department of a big insurance company. My country is very strickt about the road rules, meaning:\nOur company estimates (is this the right word?) that around 82% of accidents involving cyclists, are to blame on the cyclist. Since there are expecific places on the road for you to ride your bike, even if it's not a bike lane.\nI remember a case where 3 dudes were just cycling, outside of town and they were literally on the middle of the road. the place where they were is full of curves and has very little visibility, so they were riding side by side, middle of the road, comes a car, hits not one, but the 3 of them because they scared the person and she just swerved the car.\nThey sued her and us (insurance) 2 times. Lost both and had to pay for all damage done on the car by their own bodys",
">\n\nThis sounds like something that happened near by my home town, are you in Ontario?",
">\n\nno XD portugal",
">\n\nGod its so much worse that it's happened in multiple places.\nIn ours I think the driver killed one of the cyclists, then sued the family for emotional damage",
">\n\nMy biggest gripe about cyclists is that there is always some danger when you encounter them on the road, either as a pedestrian or motorist. Now, part of it isn’t their fault. At least here in the US, not much of the infrastructure is made for bicycles. But cyclists are constantly breaking the rules of the road (or sidewalk) to get where they’re going faster. Blowing red lights, leaving the bike lane to use the sidewalk, splitting lanes. I always clench a little when I approach one, wondering if this is the day I can’t get out of the way.",
">\n\nWe have that same problem, but then a million times worse, because I live in The Netherlands. You probably know about our proud cycling culture (the Amsterdam stereotype). And yes, cyclists here are just as bad as the ones you describe, but there’s a lot more of them here. And oh yeah, traffic laws are almost always in their favor.",
">\n\nI found driving in the towns of the Netherlands so hard. Not just because I was on the wrong side of the road 😉 but because I just wasn’t used to sooo many cyclists coming from all directions, always faster than me and passing on both sides. Even as I was signalling to leave a roundabout at one point about three cyclists rode past on the inside. I really struggled to keep up with them all, which of course means I drove slower and thus even more bikes passed me!",
">\n\nYes that is of course very difficult, however as a Dutchman I’m used to cyclists, so of course we struggle a lot less. But that doesn’t take away from the fact that cyclists do cause a lot of issues because of their careless behavior, and because as drivers we have to accommodate them. That one sided ‘deal’ that we have makes it very difficult to deal with them.\nAll in all I’m happy we have so many cyclists as it’s good for the environment. But the utopian mindset of cyclists being a gift to the world is just stupid. Especially when you consider that mostly Americans who drive on wide open roads with barely any cyclists around are the ones praising cyclists in my country all the time. Also, cyclists annoy the hell out of pedestrians as well, so it’s not just about motorists.",
">\n\nCyclists treat red lights like stop signs and stop signs like yield signs (at best). They’re not allowed on sidewalks but do it anyway. Fuckin hate cyclists.",
">\n\nEverything you said is completely legal in Denver and sidewalks are illegal , but drivers constantly scream at cyclists to ride there",
">\n\nCyclist can roll stop signs and run red lights in Denver? What the fuck?",
">\n\nI’d have no problem if cyclist had respect for other road users. where I live there are cycle lanes, but most cyclists are on the road or pavements, they ignore red lights etc. \nIf you want to cycle please make it’s safe for yourself and others around you.",
">\n\nExactly my thoughts",
">\n\nHonestly, selfish assholes exist everywhere but a selfish asshole on a bicycle does a lot less damage than a selfish asshole in a car. \nEDIT: OP's also downvoting everyone who disagrees with him, just fyi.",
">\n\nAs a pedestrian, I hate everyone who's not a pedestrian... And some pedestrians too.",
">\n\nThere's a reason so many cyclists die each year, they all seem to pick and choose which laws they want to follow. Its always safer to assume they'll do whatever they want and everyone else needs to adapt to them.",
">\n\nAs a driver downtown, I don't worry at all about pedestrians at intersections, I can turn my head and assume they will be maybe five feet closer to my car when I look back, (and I trust they won't sprint towards me when I look away, at their own peril), but bikes, they ride so fast, that in the short time I turn my head to check for oncoming traffic, a bike could materialize right beside / infront me, and I risk hitting them or them hitting the side of my car. And that's even in their designated bike lane, that I have to pass through to clear the intersection. And if I drive into a ped at three miles per hour, they will just hit my hood with their fist and call me a stupid motherfucker, or whatever makes them feel justice was served, but if I bump the bike, it will be a big crash, the bicyclist will be all curled up in a ball on the ground, I'll be the bad guy in the eyes of the law and anyone nearby, and I'll probably be late as fuck to wherever it is I'm trying to go to.",
">\n\nI skateboard so I guess I'm good",
">\n\nJust don’t inconvenience narcissistic car drivers by a few seconds.",
">\n\nI think everyone hates cyclists. Cyclists included.",
">\n\nAs a driver, I hate you both",
">\n\nPedestrians are literally the worst. Anyone who has to walk more than 20 feet a day and not to their car are complete losers, and should be jailed on site.",
">\n\nOK, I think that's a bit extreme. But hey, if you're running for public office I'll vote for you. \nI do have to wonder anytime I see someone that I know has the mental faculties to drive who is walking. Usually assume too many DUI's.",
">\n\nr/fuckcars ripping out their hair rn",
">\n\nNot unpopular.\n Everyone hates cyclists.",
">\n\nI casually cycle in the summer. If I'm on a trail, I'll slow down and ring my bell if I see pedestrians, or stop and dismount if there's a lot of people or they don't notice me. Especially on the narrow trails in this woodlot I sometimes go to. \nThe problem is a lot of cyclists, especially in North America, but perhaps other places, just aren't respectful of others. They demand car drivers \"share the road\", but then ride in huge packs, lane split, don't signal turns, run stop signs and red lights, weave in and out of traffic, boot up busy sidewalks at 15-20mph, refuse to use provided bike lanes, etc. There's like a gross sense of entitlement in the cycling community. Dude, you're still a vehicle. There's rules that apply to you, just like there are for cars and motorcycles. Big problem is difficulty/lack of enforcement. Cops have to catch them in the act. Even then they're slippery devils since they're usually more mobile than a cruiser or beat cop on foot. This is why I support plating bikes to make them easily identifiable.",
">\n\n\nThere's like a gross sense of entitlement in the cycling community. Dude, you're still a vehicle. There's rules that apply to you, just like there are for cars and motorcycles.\n\nThat is the problem right there. They want to be treated equal to car owners, yet they do not abide by traffic rules, hence all the accidents.",
">\n\nAs a driver, I concur.",
">\n\nI hate bikers on trails. They're supposed to stop and let hikers by but they never do. They go by so freakin' fast too. It's like come on now!",
">\n\nAs a mostly former cyclist, I often hated cyclists too. Mostly, because so many cyclist are just competitive asshats that suck the pleasure out of their own bike ride by making everything about speed. Like, heaven forbid they have to slow and yield to anyone.\nOnce, I was riding my bicycle with my young daughter on a bike path in the city. A couple cyclist came up and got all pissy at us, saying we need to be out of the cycle lane because we were going too slow and my 8 year old kid wasn't keeping to a narrow lane. It was so hostile - my kid started crying.\nBut that is just so typical, all the time. I've gotten yelled out a few times when I made a full, foot down stop at a redlight because the cyclist behind me was expecting me to either run the redlight or at least go into the crosswalk and dance around (like they do) until it went green. I remember nearly getting run over by cyclists all the time, and yelled at if I was going too slow.\nThat being said, we need to do 100,000 x more in the US towards making bike paths, protected bike lanes, etc., because cyling is a truly great way to get around and I miss it. I just don't miss the self-centered asshats that dominate the cycling community.",
">\n\nThis!",
">\n\nI’ve nothing against cyclists as a group. I prefer to hate all people who do stupid things whether they’re in cars, on bikes or walking. Went to pick my daughter up tonight and counted six cyclists in the dark wearing all black with no lights at all plus one with a light so weak I didn’t see it until I was nearly past him. Tonight it was dumb cyclists, but tomorrow it might be idiots in cars. Hate the idiots not the method of transportation.",
">\n\nTrue !",
">\n\nOMG YES !! I completely agree. Every time i tried to explain this to a friend, they would always look at me like I am crazy for thinking such a thing. But as I walk for 45 minutes every days, it became a reality you can't ignore... I can't count how many times I nearly got hit by a cyclist, it happens every other week. I am starting to think that cyclists should have to go through a \"course\" to learn the basics of using the streets x)\n(Sorry for mistakes, not native here 'x) )",
">\n\nThis is my story lol..",
">\n\nYes, and it also is my personal experience, which is why I posted this..?",
">\n\nYes I totally agree. Just saying \"that's my life\" :) happening in Brussels tho",
">\n\nMy bad x) welp France here, it amazes me in a really bad way how this seems to be such a common phenomenon literaly EVERYWHERE",
">\n\nJ'ai roulé en vélo à Paris et laisse tomber l'enfer que c'était. J'avais l'impression d'avancer avec des oies qui insultaient tout le monde. BAa bAAA BAaaAa !!! \nLe problème c'est que plus les gens sont stressés (même les piétons... Genre dans le metro) plus ils se haïssent et ce matin j'avais la haine sur les vélos.. en vrai j'ai la haine sur tous les citadins haha",
">\n\nas a cyclist I hate everyone",
">\n\nSame, I see posts like this where people tell us to ride on the sidewalk when it’s illegal. \nThey assume we don’t walk anywhere, drive, etc like we are essentially subhuman for doing exercise.\nThey tell us to ride closer to the right side of the road so we get hit by a car door. \nThey’re mad that we give a verbal signal that we’re coming up on the left even though that’s the law. \nnow that I’m in Colorado I’m getting yelled at for the Idaho stop, which is completely legal. We yield to stop signs and temporarily stop at red light only till it’s clear. It’s all to REDUCE CAR TRAFFIC.\nSo far I’ve had family members die from hit and runs and drunk drivers, but somehow cyclists are the most dangerous thing on the road today.\nWhat is this really about?",
">\n\nI loathe cyclists. Selfish, entitled lycra lunatics.",
">\n\nBe honest, do you realize that it's possible to ride a bicycle and not be selfish, or entitled, or a lunatic, or not wear lycra?",
">\n\nThis thread is such a circlejerk, it's ridiculous.",
">\n\nThat's what I'm here for",
">\n\nIt's because cycling isn't regulated like motor vehicles are but they still get on the roads unlike pedestrians. So they don't have knowledge on the rules of the road that drivers have.\nThere's also some sort of hypocrisy they have where they believe drivers should give way to them because bikes are more vulnerable than cars while expecting pedestrians to give way to them because they're moving faster.",
">\n\n\nSo they don't have knowledge on the rules of the road\n\nPlenty do. Many cyclists also are automobilists. They just feel like they're exempted from respecting trafic rules because it's tiring to stop and go on a bike and they're slower an lighter than cars.",
">\n\nSure you got hit by a truck, but at least you managed to save yourself a little time and avoid waiting for a few seconds. Is what I'd say if they didn't then end up in the hospital",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists, as it should be.",
">\n\nCyclists shouldn’t be on sidewalks",
">\n\nI also cringe a lot when I see the international Reddit community constantly praise us Dutch people for our biking culture. People have no idea how many traffic accidents we get that could have been avoided if we didn’t have cyclists EVERYWHERE who are barely aware of the traffic rules that also apply to them.\nPeople have no idea about how cyclists are almost always right according to our traffic laws, which makes them much more reckless. They cause millions of dollars of damage to cars (and pedestrians) each year, and barely ever face consequences for their irresponsible and reckless behavior in traffic.\nPeople don’t see how cyclists often block traffic because they like to cycle next to each other in pairs, and if you honk they get angry and sometimes even aggressive and try to break your side mirror if they feel like it.\nMany intersections have bicycle lanes that you need to check when making a turn when driving, even though the intersection is already super busy with lots of cars. And guess what, cyclists still ride around fast and recklessly and making sure you don’t hit another car, cyclist AND pedestrian is all the job of one single driver.\nSo all in all, people from countries where driving is a relatively easy and chill thing to do, praise cycling culture in other countries. Try to drive here in busy traffic with thousands of cars AND (RECKLESS) CYCLISTS on the road and then tell me what it’s like.",
">\n\nIt would be much easier to sympathize with cars drivers if they did not need like 60% of the entire transit space leaving cyclists and pedestrians very little.\n\neven though the intersection is already super busy with lots of cars\n\nOfc, because cars are so large and need so much space.",
">\n\nI get that, but why is that my fault? I don’t do the city planning. Besides, cars are much larger than bicycles, so doesn’t it make sense there’s more space needed for cars than for bicycles?\nBut even then, if you don’t want to have any sympathy for motorists, because city planners give them more space than others, that’s just weird. It’s not the motorist’s fault.",
">\n\n\ndoesn’t it make sense there’s more space needed for cars than for bicycles?\n\nWhy a valuable and scarce resource such as the public space in cities should be used predominantly to benefit car users while barring everyone else? \nI just find it much harder to sympathize with the privileged group.",
">\n\nBecause people need to be able to go from A to B?",
">\n\nSo do pedestrians/public transport users/cyclists. But they don't require so much space per person.",
">\n\nWell in The Netherlands public transportation takes up an enormous amount of space and cyclists have their own dedicated lanes almost everywhere. Also motorists have to give public transportation space as we usually have to stop for trams and buses to pass, according to traffic rules. Guess who doesn’t often follow those rules: cyclists.\nHowever, public transportation itself is super busy and unbelievably expensive in The Netherlands. It costs more than 20 Euros to travel ~70 kilometers. That’s why a lot of people still prefer to have a car, and cars simply need infrastructure.\nSo I don’t really get your point. Cars, bicycles and public transportation all get a fair portion of the space that’s available.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist, i hate pedestrians. Here in Germany, there is bike lanes, one part for bikes and one for pedestrians on traffic lights... etc. But the pedestrians just ignore them, form \"walls\" of people blocking the bike lane, dont look while crossing the bike lane. Even cars repect us more than you.",
">\n\nThis I understand. Experienced the same in Denmark",
">\n\nClaaaaaarksoooooonnnnn",
">\n\nIdk about other places but here cyclists are constantly breaking the law and never getting ticketed for it. It makes no sense to me. I don’t think it’d make a huge difference but I do think some cyclists would think twice about disregarding the rules if those rules were actually enforced.",
">\n\nI get the sentiment. My feeling is the root cause is they don’t have their own infrastructure. Cars and peds do. So cyclists are always forced into a non ideal path. \nI’m aware they have rights to the road but cars and bikes really struggle to share an infrastructure clearly made for cars. \nSo if we invest in cycling infrastructure everyone would probably be happier.",
">\n\ndoubt it. In my city there is an asphalt bike path for miles that is like 8 feet wide. Smooth. No stop signs. Do they use it? nope they get their collective ass out on the street and I honestly don't have a clue why.\nIt defies logic. Safter, smooth, not cars/trunks, etc. Here they are out on the street just fiddle farting down a 45 mph road like they own it with a bike path 15 feet away with no one on it. The last guy I asked said \"It is my road as well you know\" that I ran up on while I was at a crossing while riding on the path myself. I just gave up trying to understand. Someone dies on that road every couple of months from bike or pedestrian strike with a vehicle. It was the whole reason they built the path....",
">\n\nWell in my experience there are 2 thing going on there.\na) Often bikers will avoid the path because peds often share or walk across those paths and their speed is closer to that of a car than a ped or \nb) If they are commuting...the path likely isn't going exactly where they need to.\nAs to your specific scenario I don't doubt there are bikers that are hard headed and stubborn. I know a few of those. But generally I do bikers using the infrastructure where we have built it.",
">\n\nThere's an accident here involving @ car running over a cyclist who crossed a red traffic light. And guess who take the blame?",
">\n\nLaughs in being dutch",
">\n\nIt is regrettable that a handful of asshole cyclists ruins everyone’s opinion of us. It really undermines the support needed to improve infrastructure for cycling. \nIf it is any help, when i ring my bell, I am doing so to avoid the alternatives of either yelling a warning or startling people. I normally exit the path and pass on the grass. I would say that most cyclist are the same. I don’t want you to get out of the way, I want you to know I am there. \nBut it only takes a couple assholes that think they own the path or the street. I have a cousin like this and it is difficult to convince him his is wrong and is putting himself and others in danger.",
">\n\nI think the a-holes are people that are only on a bike because it's the easiest thing for them, living where they do. You and those like you are on the bike because you love cycling.",
">\n\nI live in Portland, OR, and the cyclists here are so fucking rude and entitled.",
">\n\nI live in not-Portland OR and visited once. I biked down the road. Could not believe how nice everyone was to me. Probably because they could tell I’m an outsider.",
">\n\nI meant how they treat everyone else who isn't on a bike, tbh.",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists and it's for a simple reason. They think they can do whatever the hell they want. They switch between a pedestrian, a cyclist and a vehicle deciding on the fly whatever rules they feel like following with no accountability. \nOne minute they are skipping traffic, then they are deciding to cross at a crosswalk instead of following traffic. And the sidewalks are bike lanes if that's more convenient.",
">\n\nI just get annoyed because they will ride double wide on a tight street, forcing you to go 60mph in a 45, on the opposite side of traffic, risking a head on collision. And yea, you have to do that, because otherwise cars behind you will start driving aggressive as well as the fact that your expecting all the cars to go at a bikes speed on the road.",
">\n\nThat's because every country except for the Netherlands and Denmark have shit bicycle infrastructure.",
">\n\nI civilised countries we have cycling paths and cycling on the street is also possible as drivers aren't insane. So this seems rather like a problem of poor urban planning than cyclists in general.",
">\n\nWhere I live the cyclists just refuse to take the bikelane and either block the traffic because the rather use the street or they decide to use the pedestrian side of the sidewalk. The frickin bikelane is as big as the pedestrian one. There is no excuse not to use it and they still won't! One of them almost hit me if I hadn't dodge it. If the cyclist only drove a few inches to the left there would have been a bikelane and it wouldn't happened. Of course the person didn't apologize and just cursed at me.",
">\n\nBike gutters are awful and less safe than taking the lane. Assholes park in the bike lanes ALL THE TIME. Plus no one ever looks behind them when getting out pf their car so getting smacked by a door is a real danger. Drivers are entitled but it’s not their fault it’s the way we’ve built society to allow and expect them to be.\nETA: next time you’re driving around take a count how many people you see pulled over or parked in a bike gutter.",
">\n\nCompletely agree - I was ran over almost 3 times in Berlin. \nAnd every single time I checked before crossing - but they just suddenly spawned right in the way",
">\n\nDid you cross at a designated crosswalk? As a cyclist the amount of times people just randomly meander across an active street instead of going to the zebra/lollipop crossing, and then get angry at me when I have to swerve out the way/ brake is comical.",
">\n\nMan, y'all are sad people. \n\"Get off the road!\" Okay, now we are on the sidewalk. \n\"Get off the sidewalk!\" Back in the road again. \n\"They need to ring their bells so we know they're coming! Btw I hate it when they ring their bells so I know they're coming.\"",
">\n\nI hate cyclists like that. I don’t have a car so my bike is my main source of transportation and I don’t ride like that. So far, from what I’ve noticed in my area, I’m the only one that follows the damn rules in my city xD",
">\n\nNo matter where you are and who you are… driver or walker, scooter or flyer… we ALL hate cyclists.",
">\n\nI feel ya. The only thing I hate more than cyclists is electric scooters.",
">\n\nCompletely agree! A cycling license (similar to driving) should be required. Far too many cyclist who doesn’t know (and those who don’t just give a F) about traffic rules.",
">\n\nI completely agree! Cyclists have a lot of rights on the roads, and are very vocal about them, but think they can do whatever the fuck they want at roundabouts and pedestrian crossings.",
">\n\nIt just fascinates me how anyone can walk or drive through a city and genuinely think that bicycles are the problem. Look around you at every turn there are cars jamming the roads. Parked blocking things. Blocking pavements. Driving aggressively. Speeding. Failing to stop. Polluting the air. If they hit you, you are seriously injured or dead. This happens in the thousands. The city absolutely revolves around them.",
">\n\nYou are 100% right. Except I didn't say bicycles are the problem. I said i hate them. I said fuck cars too. I also said bicycles are one of the best alternative for trafic jam in cities.\nCities in Europe weren't made for cars nor bikes. So the problem is the fucking lazy greedy people who decide how to spend our tax money. The problem is people thinking they are all alone on the street. The problem is how stressed everybody is and how it become dangerous.\nNot because I hate how cyclists take revenge from drivers bullies to pedestrians makes me hate a transportation model itself.",
">\n\nIt just seems odd that people can really harp on about cyclists when they are such a trivial issue. Posts like this can get hundreds of replies. People tend to make excuses about cars.",
">\n\nYou just insulted a whole country.",
">\n\nThe Netherlands? It's ok",
">\n\nOk",
">\n\nI judge the actions of the individual not the mode of transport. I find it produces more accurate results.",
">\n\nApparently \"individuals alone are responsible for their own actions\" is the real unpopular opinion here.",
">\n\nIndeed 😀",
">\n\nAs a car driver I also hate cyclists. Saw one on a 45mph the other day despite there being a sidewalk AND a bikelane",
">\n\n45 mph isn't a speed for bike lane or sidewalk. Street is",
">\n\nas a cyclist, I hate pedestrians.\nMy city put in these nice protected bicycle lanes so bikes don't have to ride inches from cars, and boy don't those pedestrians just LOVE using the bike lane as a queuing up spot for the crosswalks. it's just so nice and convenient to get 5 more feet closer to your goal, isn't it? Those bicycles can stop and wait...and feel free to swear at them like THEY are the ones in the wrong.\nBicycles and pedestrians are natural enemies, that's never going to change. There can be only one.",
">\n\nLET'S END THIS NOW !!!!!",
">\n\nanyplace but Holy Ground.",
">\n\ndon't blame all bicyclists for the shitty ones.\nthat would be like saying every person who drives a car is an asshole. or every person who walks on the sidewalk is an asshole.\nsome people are good at getting around. other people are jerks. don't blame everyone for the actions of a small subset of people.",
">\n\nI mean, isn’t that the sentiment over that the popular sub r/fuckcars? The generalization is already being perpetuated from cyclists and “urbanists” in their war against cars.",
">\n\nNot really. That sub mostly hates the focus on cars when designing infrastructure, as well as the forced dependency on cars in our modern world. Not individual drivers.",
">\n\nSure about that? It’s mostly just a bitch-fest about driver errors to further their political agenda.",
">\n\nYea, I'm pretty sure.",
">\n\nReally weird way to get there if that’s the case. Alienating a large portion of the population (car drivers, car riders, people that depend on vehicles for the delivery of goods and services) is not how you get them on your side.",
">\n\nI don't think that's their goal in the first place. It's just a reddit sub.",
">\n\nEspecially when they have a stupid fucking bell and say \"on the left\" then proceed to be on the right side of the trail running into you",
">\n\nHahahha \"is he coming on the left or should i go on the lef...\" BANG!!",
">\n\nGF lives in a college town. It’s as if there’s some kinda fuckin’ death wish among the student cycling population",
">\n\nAs a [insert anyone, including cyclist], I hate cyclists.",
">\n\nPeople don't wanna hear it when it comes from automobilists because \"gngn cars are more dangerous and drivers are entitled\" but reality is cyclists are just the worst. Whether I'm on foot, driving a car, or riding a bicycle myself, cyclists are always always the ones being absolute public hazards. Heck, when I'm on my bike and stop at the stop sign on a cycle lane to let the cars go, they look at me as if I'm jesus or something. They even try to let me pass first because of how used they are to cyclists who just can't be bothered to respect the damn stop sign.",
">\n\nThe problem isn't the cyclists here, it's the lacking infrastructure.",
">\n\nWe shouldn't have to build infrastructure so people can partake in recreation. I find that comment extremely arrogant. Why on earth do cyclists deserve to have their recreation glorified and catered to??",
">\n\nRecreation? Ah yes, cycling is only for recreation.",
">\n\nWell, where I live that I'd the ONLY purpose. I'm 17 miles from any city municipality. Nobody is biking here to go to the grocery store or work.",
">\n\nNot everything is about you personally.",
">\n\nTo me, it is, and should be. My concern is around how cyclists inconvenience me while I'm trying to be a productive member of society. I feel like that's a fair critique.",
">\n\nYou are mad that cyclists inconvenience you yet you reject dedicated infrastructure as a solution. Do you think cyclists should be banned off the road completely?",
">\n\nThe real issue here is lacking cycling infrastructure.",
">\n\nDefinitely a major issue.\nBut part of the issue is definitely cyclists who prioritize their own speed over the safety and welfare of everyone around them. It's like they are all BMW drivers, deep down, and just don't want to yield to or slow down for anyone.",
">\n\nI'm sure there are, assholes exist in all vehicle types.",
">\n\nCyclists know thar neither the pavement nor the road are theirs because motorists and pedestrians like you are both screaming at them all the time. And I swear you'd be angrier if they didn't give a polite warning that they're coming toward you. \nCyclists who breeze through crossings instead of stopping are a minority, much like cyclists are a minority in general, and you can't judge an entire group that aren't adequately represented",
">\n\nFuck traveling in general",
">\n\nYa. Where are our transporters! \nSorry had to go full nerd.",
">\n\nI see posts like this constantly. It blows my mind people can just choose one thing that is so insignificant to scapegoat. \nThey assume people on bikes don’t also walk, drive, etc like we are essentially subhuman for doing exercise / running errands in this way because they are inconvenienced for a few seconds. You realize we are human like you , right?\nPeople tell us to ride bicycles on the sidewalk when it’s illegal while others say not too. It’s usually against the law.\nThey tell us to ride closer to the right side of the road , so we get hit by a car door and yelled at again. \nThey’re mad that we give a verbal signal that we’re coming up on the left even though that’s the law. \nNow that I’m in Colorado I’m getting yelled at for the Idaho stop, which is completely legal. We yield to stop signs and temporarily stop at red lights only if it’s clear. It’s all to REDUCE CAR TRAFFIC. \nKeep in mind we are riding bicycles which in its own right REDUCES CAR TRAFFIC. \n80% of car trips are within 3 miles from your house. Everyone that rides a bike keeps you from being stuck behind them in traffic for longer then the 20 seconds you’re currently inconvenienced. It’s also mean parking closer to the front door of a shop. \nSo far I’ve had family members die from hit and runs and drunk drivers, but somehow cyclists are the most dangerous thing on the road today?! It’s not adding up.\nWhat is this really about?",
">\n\nI'm sorry for your losses. I never said bikers are the most dangerous things on the road. Saying this would be stupid. The problem in my city is the lack of respect from cyclists to pedestrians in a general way. I'm not even talking about drivers against EVERYTHING ON THE STREET.",
">\n\nI go out of my way to be respectful to everybody, and I’ve had nothing but kindness and respect from other cyclists .\nYou wanna blame everybody on a bicycle for all your problems when it’s really just about a few people who disrespected you. \nCyclists are drivers, walkers, etc. do they just jump on a bicycle and instantly become disrespectful?\nStill doesn’t make any logical sense.",
">\n\nDude you just don't get it.. i understand biking is your life.. but come on.\nI use to bike 40km per day to work. \nI don't have problems with people jumping on bikes. I simply hate the ones that are disrespectful.\nIs it too hard to understand? Just me venting coz I feel like a lot of bikers think they are on top of the citizen pyramid? \nI'm not venting about the system here, nor about cars.. just about some (yes some) bikers.\nAnd please there is no need to beg for upvotes on fuckcars how old are you?",
">\n\nI bet your fat.",
">\n\nOf course I fart !",
">\n\nTo you yours and to mine mine; I hate car users and their ilk who are filled with wonton waste and hate for all else who dare travel near them. I stop at all lights, halt for all signs, use a mirror, lights, and hand signals, pull over for cars coming my way so long as there is any room, and use what little biking infrastructure is available to me.\nMy taxes are waste and paid in folly for they assuredly go in portion to your reckless use of a powerful machine and not to my own reckless use of a small self-propelled stick on two wheels to separate lanes and keep them maintained. No, no, I must settle for the gutter and cry glee for that and be ashamed to move to the sidewalk when it suddenly ends and continues a block later down the road. \nFuck your car, your roads, and your selfish desire to pave the world and create cities with 60% of their coverage dedicated to driving a car, parking a car, and separating the world into places for cars and otherwise. You who drive faster and faster, in bigger and bigger cars. I loath you as you loath mine.",
">\n\nI wouldn’t hate cyclists if they didn’t act like road laws don’t apply to em in the city where I live. I’ve seen cyclists not even stop at red lights even with an almost full intersection, and ride the wrong way down one ways.\nEdit: I do wish the city where I live had more bike lanes but yeah.",
">\n\nIf you're going to hate someone, maybe hate the people actually doing those things.\nIf I see someone on a bike rush through a short break on a red light in an otherwise busy intersection, I shake my head and think they are an idiot. I think this while waiting for the light to turn green on my bike.\nSimilarly, when a car illegally stops in a bike lane (which happens ALL THE TIME by the way), I don't turn around and blame the cars moving along legally in the adjacent lane.",
">\n\nPedestrian are the worst.\nWhen i started using bicicle I was very polite: brake, ring, ask for permission. And what the large amount of people do? Ignore u, watch u in the eyes and take a step in the fucking middle of the trail (many many times! for real!), shout at you just because u exist. So.... At some point is fuck you all, I'm coming go out of the way. That's it",
">\n\n\nI will never drive nor park on a bike lane, always look into the mirror to be careful of one of you monkeys. So why can't you be careful when us peasants are walking?\n\nThis is dumb. Obviously there are plenty of cyclists who are careful and courteous about your safety. That's part of what a bell or \"watch out!\" (generally \"On your left\") is doing for you. And just because you are courteous to them doesn't mean everyone is. Is every driver a douchebag just because some of them crowd cyclists when and where the cyclist has the right to the road? No.",
">\n\nThe difference here is that generally car drivers are going to be held accountable for bad driving. This is in the form of dash cams, ANPR and red light cameras which catch drivers doing bad things and they can receive a fine or points on their licence. Cyclists currently can't be held accountable if they jump red lights or hit a car or pedestrian as there isn't anything that helps identify them. This is a big issue in cities. I live and work in London and see many cyclists jumping red lights and weaving around pedestrians crossing. Cars can't do this as most traffic lights have red light cameras that would catch this.\nDrivers as a collective (including me) are in no way perfect or even held to account 100% of the time, but I believe we need a system for cyclists to be held accountable too",
">\n\nYour way of thinking, while perfectly rational and natural, is outdated. Traffic law enforcement, like any other law enforcement, is less about the enforcement, and more about the prevention. Where I live, speed and red light cameras are clearly marked ahead so that the people who'd normally break the law follow it instead, making punishment unnecessary. \nSame could be done with cyclists. Sure, you could make every cyclist install a license plate, require a \"cycling license\", or install expensive cameras with facial identification software, but how about just make it so cyclists aren't incentivised to break the law in the first place? \nMake more useful cycling infrastructure, and more cyclists will use it. Make that infrastructure intersect with foot and motor traffic more safely and less often, and less collisions will happen.",
">\n\nI completely understand your point. However, a lot of money has gone into my local area for cycling infrastructure that most cyclists are using, but many are still choosing to break the rules as the rules are inconvenient. The infrastructure is not enough, there needs to be an incentive NOT to break the rules.\nIf you take a look at Chiswick High Road in London, England. They have created segregated cycle lanes from the traffic. These cycle lanes have their own lights and crossings to keep them safe from cars. However many cyclists just ignore the lights and just keep going into pedestrians. There is no punishment for them doing this as they can't be tracked. Personally I think every cyclist should have to register their bike (make it free to help encourage this) and then a new form of ANPR used to also catch cyclists in the act",
">\n\nPersonally I'd have no problem registering my bike for free, especially if I could use that same registration if it gets stolen, but registering something as mechanically simple and cheap as a bicycle is, in my opinion difficult if not impossible to do without making the bike mechanically complex and expensive, at which point most people would just switch to scooters.\nI don't live in London, but from what I've heard, by far the biggest threat in the city is still motorized traffic, namely cars and lorries, and so until that problem is no longer a problem, I wouldn't really do anything special about bikes. Maybe put some undercover bike cops near the most dangerous bike path/lane intersections to catch a few offenders and make an example out of them, but that's about it.",
">\n\nMost cars I’ve driven came equipped with brakes and a steering wheel. I don’t see the problem",
">\n\nA common take and a stupid one.\nThere are good and bad drivers, pedestrians, and cyclists. Hating any of them as a group because some of them do bad things is just dumb.",
">\n\nIf you followed the laws and stayed out of the bike lane as a pedestrian there would be no problem.",
">\n\nIf bicyclists followed the laws and stopped ignoring street signs/traffic lights there would be no problem.",
">\n\nDon’t see how this address the problem with pedestrians in bike lanes.",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Drivers pedestrians other cyclists. They're a scourge.",
">\n\nEvery word of this is pure wisdom.",
">\n\nAs a car driver, I too hate cyclists.\nI don't care who has 'right of way'. I'm in a car, you're not. If we collide, regardless of fault, you're the one that dies.\nDo you really want to die on the hill that says \"i can bike on the rode b/c it's legal\"?\nI might be in jail, but you're still dead.\nBikes don't belong on public roads. Unless there's a bike lane - aka, a pathway designed specifically for bikers.\nIt's FAR SAFER to bike on the sidewalk.",
">\n\nBe careful you’ll anger r/fuckcars",
">\n\nI recently got a bike in Japan and there isn't any room on the street to ride my bike. Most people are fine when I'm on the sidewalk, however, the worst ones are groups of 2 or more who try and take up as much space as possible allowing nobody to pass. Same with the people who constantly switch between the left and right side of the sidewalk. It's really annoying to see how little spacial awareness they have.",
">\n\nCyclists on the road don’t have to pass the same test as vehicles on the road, which is why they are so bad. If there was a test in order to cycle on the road then i think it would be alot better",
">\n\nWhy do you hate all cyclists when only some of them are rude/dangerous?",
">\n\nCope hehe",
">\n\nIt's the powered vehicles that kill most pedestrians.\nBut, sure, cyclists blahblah...",
">\n\nAs an occasional cyclist, I don't like you either.",
">\n\nI biked everywhere.....when I was a child. I'm an adult now and have an automobile. They are pretty neat.",
">\n\nWhen I used to have to walk to work I’d walk on the sidewalk and listen to music and one time this guy zipped right by me yelling almost knocking me over and flipped me off?? They act like they don’t have breaks lmao",
">\n\nholy smokes! glad you're ok",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Even cyclists.",
">\n\nAnd here i thought why the f pediatrician hate cyclists",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Even other cyclists.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist this thread is hilarious",
">\n\nAnyone got recommendations for how to be a nice, considerate cyclist besides being careful and non-entitled? I plan on starting when it gets warm outside.",
">\n\nNot unpopular",
">\n\nWhen I drive to work, I obey most of the rules. I just can't drive on some roads. That would either kill me at some point or I'd slow down a whole 60 km/h lane that's packed with traffic. When riding on the sidewalk, I always stop or get off my bike if it gets too crowded or the sidewalk narrows. But when no one is around I just keep driving normally, just slower than usual. I try to stay alert at all times and let everyone pass because I know I'm wrong here.\nAt one point there is a one-way street I'm not allowed to drive on, but as my alternatives are the same 60km/h road (but now also with rails) or a crowded sidewalk, I prefer the one-way street with maybe 4 cars per hour that I can easily avoid. After that there is finally a bike path until I get to work. There would be a legal route, but it would take twice, if not triple, the time.\nI also hate reckless cyclists. They have already endangered me and are often unfriendly assholes. I just don't have a death wish and don't want to drive a route in an hour if 20 minutes are possible in a safe way (If the brain gets used)."
] |
>
Yeah I’ve nearly been run over from behind by cyclists on sidewalks too many times
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[
"I road cycled for years, I always followed the street rules. Always. Red light means red light. \nI have so many cycling friends who get into accidents and other conflicts with drivers, and yet they think it’s stupid to stop at a red light. They just don’t connect these two things",
">\n\nMost bikers I encounter are complete idiots. Like I'd be driving normally and out of nowhere comes a biker on a crosswalk in full speed. Now, I appreciate bikers who actually stop and make eye contact with me as I'm driving towards the crosswalk but man, it's either that or the biker almost dies because I have no time to brake.\nAnd what's up with all the bikers going like 5 kmh IN THE MIDDLE of a road when there's a dedicated sidewalk for bikers right next to them? Drives me insane.",
">\n\nIt seems like most bikers because of observation bias.\nIf you follow the rules as you should, you’re unmemorable.\nAs for the sidewalks - its actually less safe on the sidewalk.",
">\n\nInteresting. Dangerous situations are more valuable to remember, and I remember tons of irresponsible bikers. It is in fact observation bias. But I'm always happy to see those who pay close attention to traffic, and I do remeber some of them aswell.",
">\n\nWell the same goes for driving. How many cars do you remember when they haven’t done anything? But you tend to remember the ones who do something dumb",
">\n\nYeah it can be applied to anything really.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist in one of the most bike-dense cities in the world, I hate cyclists too. If I could avoid getting myself hurt, I’d be ramming at least ten of them a day just to teach a lesson about ignoring rules and common sense.",
">\n\nAmsterdam? Copenhagen?",
">\n\nCopenhagen. It’s a wonderful bike city but the people are incredibly self-centered.",
">\n\nI had high expectations from cyclists when I first visited the city, after all it is heralded as a cycling paradise and, well, let’s say it looked a lot more like the rest of the world and mainly because of the personal behavior of cyclists.\nMy local friend justified it, stating that it’s because danish are more temperamental than all other Scandinavians: an explanation that I really didn’t know what to do with…",
">\n\nIf “temperamental” means “a bunch of egotistical [insert unflattering body part]”, he’s right.",
">\n\nYou make it sound like a war zone. I live in Copenhagen and most of the time biking around the city is very pleasant. Except for the food delivery scooters, they can 🤬 off.",
">\n\nI guess it depends on how often and where you’re going. If you have places to be each and every day and want to get there effectively, people ignoring general rules and courtesies of the road are a pain. If you’re one of the types listening to podcasts with a latte in one hand and a phone in the other just trudging along, it’s probably fine.",
">\n\nSame! I love walking. Where I live on popular trails, there are bike lanes, but the cyclists will just ride wherever they. They don’t care and won’t let you know they’re coming. They’ll get pissy if you don’t just automatically know they’re coming up from behind you. If you do much as step foot in the bike lane, they get mad, but have no problems riding side by side outside the bike lane.",
">\n\nSame here! So much for my pleasant walk on the beautiful Trail. They sneak up and when they're almost on top of me, a loud voice yells \"On your left!\" They startle the shit out of me and cause me to jump sky high! 😡",
">\n\nIt’s literally the law to say that. This thread is all about hating them no matter if they follow the law or not.",
">\n\nIs it possible to do that without sneaking up on them and startling the shit out of them by yelling real loud? And then cutting is close to them as you possibly can without hitting them?",
">\n\nHello. \nMy useless comment to this post is here :D\nSo, i work in the accidents department of a big insurance company. My country is very strickt about the road rules, meaning:\nOur company estimates (is this the right word?) that around 82% of accidents involving cyclists, are to blame on the cyclist. Since there are expecific places on the road for you to ride your bike, even if it's not a bike lane.\nI remember a case where 3 dudes were just cycling, outside of town and they were literally on the middle of the road. the place where they were is full of curves and has very little visibility, so they were riding side by side, middle of the road, comes a car, hits not one, but the 3 of them because they scared the person and she just swerved the car.\nThey sued her and us (insurance) 2 times. Lost both and had to pay for all damage done on the car by their own bodys",
">\n\nThis sounds like something that happened near by my home town, are you in Ontario?",
">\n\nno XD portugal",
">\n\nGod its so much worse that it's happened in multiple places.\nIn ours I think the driver killed one of the cyclists, then sued the family for emotional damage",
">\n\nMy biggest gripe about cyclists is that there is always some danger when you encounter them on the road, either as a pedestrian or motorist. Now, part of it isn’t their fault. At least here in the US, not much of the infrastructure is made for bicycles. But cyclists are constantly breaking the rules of the road (or sidewalk) to get where they’re going faster. Blowing red lights, leaving the bike lane to use the sidewalk, splitting lanes. I always clench a little when I approach one, wondering if this is the day I can’t get out of the way.",
">\n\nWe have that same problem, but then a million times worse, because I live in The Netherlands. You probably know about our proud cycling culture (the Amsterdam stereotype). And yes, cyclists here are just as bad as the ones you describe, but there’s a lot more of them here. And oh yeah, traffic laws are almost always in their favor.",
">\n\nI found driving in the towns of the Netherlands so hard. Not just because I was on the wrong side of the road 😉 but because I just wasn’t used to sooo many cyclists coming from all directions, always faster than me and passing on both sides. Even as I was signalling to leave a roundabout at one point about three cyclists rode past on the inside. I really struggled to keep up with them all, which of course means I drove slower and thus even more bikes passed me!",
">\n\nYes that is of course very difficult, however as a Dutchman I’m used to cyclists, so of course we struggle a lot less. But that doesn’t take away from the fact that cyclists do cause a lot of issues because of their careless behavior, and because as drivers we have to accommodate them. That one sided ‘deal’ that we have makes it very difficult to deal with them.\nAll in all I’m happy we have so many cyclists as it’s good for the environment. But the utopian mindset of cyclists being a gift to the world is just stupid. Especially when you consider that mostly Americans who drive on wide open roads with barely any cyclists around are the ones praising cyclists in my country all the time. Also, cyclists annoy the hell out of pedestrians as well, so it’s not just about motorists.",
">\n\nCyclists treat red lights like stop signs and stop signs like yield signs (at best). They’re not allowed on sidewalks but do it anyway. Fuckin hate cyclists.",
">\n\nEverything you said is completely legal in Denver and sidewalks are illegal , but drivers constantly scream at cyclists to ride there",
">\n\nCyclist can roll stop signs and run red lights in Denver? What the fuck?",
">\n\nI’d have no problem if cyclist had respect for other road users. where I live there are cycle lanes, but most cyclists are on the road or pavements, they ignore red lights etc. \nIf you want to cycle please make it’s safe for yourself and others around you.",
">\n\nExactly my thoughts",
">\n\nHonestly, selfish assholes exist everywhere but a selfish asshole on a bicycle does a lot less damage than a selfish asshole in a car. \nEDIT: OP's also downvoting everyone who disagrees with him, just fyi.",
">\n\nAs a pedestrian, I hate everyone who's not a pedestrian... And some pedestrians too.",
">\n\nThere's a reason so many cyclists die each year, they all seem to pick and choose which laws they want to follow. Its always safer to assume they'll do whatever they want and everyone else needs to adapt to them.",
">\n\nAs a driver downtown, I don't worry at all about pedestrians at intersections, I can turn my head and assume they will be maybe five feet closer to my car when I look back, (and I trust they won't sprint towards me when I look away, at their own peril), but bikes, they ride so fast, that in the short time I turn my head to check for oncoming traffic, a bike could materialize right beside / infront me, and I risk hitting them or them hitting the side of my car. And that's even in their designated bike lane, that I have to pass through to clear the intersection. And if I drive into a ped at three miles per hour, they will just hit my hood with their fist and call me a stupid motherfucker, or whatever makes them feel justice was served, but if I bump the bike, it will be a big crash, the bicyclist will be all curled up in a ball on the ground, I'll be the bad guy in the eyes of the law and anyone nearby, and I'll probably be late as fuck to wherever it is I'm trying to go to.",
">\n\nI skateboard so I guess I'm good",
">\n\nJust don’t inconvenience narcissistic car drivers by a few seconds.",
">\n\nI think everyone hates cyclists. Cyclists included.",
">\n\nAs a driver, I hate you both",
">\n\nPedestrians are literally the worst. Anyone who has to walk more than 20 feet a day and not to their car are complete losers, and should be jailed on site.",
">\n\nOK, I think that's a bit extreme. But hey, if you're running for public office I'll vote for you. \nI do have to wonder anytime I see someone that I know has the mental faculties to drive who is walking. Usually assume too many DUI's.",
">\n\nr/fuckcars ripping out their hair rn",
">\n\nNot unpopular.\n Everyone hates cyclists.",
">\n\nI casually cycle in the summer. If I'm on a trail, I'll slow down and ring my bell if I see pedestrians, or stop and dismount if there's a lot of people or they don't notice me. Especially on the narrow trails in this woodlot I sometimes go to. \nThe problem is a lot of cyclists, especially in North America, but perhaps other places, just aren't respectful of others. They demand car drivers \"share the road\", but then ride in huge packs, lane split, don't signal turns, run stop signs and red lights, weave in and out of traffic, boot up busy sidewalks at 15-20mph, refuse to use provided bike lanes, etc. There's like a gross sense of entitlement in the cycling community. Dude, you're still a vehicle. There's rules that apply to you, just like there are for cars and motorcycles. Big problem is difficulty/lack of enforcement. Cops have to catch them in the act. Even then they're slippery devils since they're usually more mobile than a cruiser or beat cop on foot. This is why I support plating bikes to make them easily identifiable.",
">\n\n\nThere's like a gross sense of entitlement in the cycling community. Dude, you're still a vehicle. There's rules that apply to you, just like there are for cars and motorcycles.\n\nThat is the problem right there. They want to be treated equal to car owners, yet they do not abide by traffic rules, hence all the accidents.",
">\n\nAs a driver, I concur.",
">\n\nI hate bikers on trails. They're supposed to stop and let hikers by but they never do. They go by so freakin' fast too. It's like come on now!",
">\n\nAs a mostly former cyclist, I often hated cyclists too. Mostly, because so many cyclist are just competitive asshats that suck the pleasure out of their own bike ride by making everything about speed. Like, heaven forbid they have to slow and yield to anyone.\nOnce, I was riding my bicycle with my young daughter on a bike path in the city. A couple cyclist came up and got all pissy at us, saying we need to be out of the cycle lane because we were going too slow and my 8 year old kid wasn't keeping to a narrow lane. It was so hostile - my kid started crying.\nBut that is just so typical, all the time. I've gotten yelled out a few times when I made a full, foot down stop at a redlight because the cyclist behind me was expecting me to either run the redlight or at least go into the crosswalk and dance around (like they do) until it went green. I remember nearly getting run over by cyclists all the time, and yelled at if I was going too slow.\nThat being said, we need to do 100,000 x more in the US towards making bike paths, protected bike lanes, etc., because cyling is a truly great way to get around and I miss it. I just don't miss the self-centered asshats that dominate the cycling community.",
">\n\nThis!",
">\n\nI’ve nothing against cyclists as a group. I prefer to hate all people who do stupid things whether they’re in cars, on bikes or walking. Went to pick my daughter up tonight and counted six cyclists in the dark wearing all black with no lights at all plus one with a light so weak I didn’t see it until I was nearly past him. Tonight it was dumb cyclists, but tomorrow it might be idiots in cars. Hate the idiots not the method of transportation.",
">\n\nTrue !",
">\n\nOMG YES !! I completely agree. Every time i tried to explain this to a friend, they would always look at me like I am crazy for thinking such a thing. But as I walk for 45 minutes every days, it became a reality you can't ignore... I can't count how many times I nearly got hit by a cyclist, it happens every other week. I am starting to think that cyclists should have to go through a \"course\" to learn the basics of using the streets x)\n(Sorry for mistakes, not native here 'x) )",
">\n\nThis is my story lol..",
">\n\nYes, and it also is my personal experience, which is why I posted this..?",
">\n\nYes I totally agree. Just saying \"that's my life\" :) happening in Brussels tho",
">\n\nMy bad x) welp France here, it amazes me in a really bad way how this seems to be such a common phenomenon literaly EVERYWHERE",
">\n\nJ'ai roulé en vélo à Paris et laisse tomber l'enfer que c'était. J'avais l'impression d'avancer avec des oies qui insultaient tout le monde. BAa bAAA BAaaAa !!! \nLe problème c'est que plus les gens sont stressés (même les piétons... Genre dans le metro) plus ils se haïssent et ce matin j'avais la haine sur les vélos.. en vrai j'ai la haine sur tous les citadins haha",
">\n\nas a cyclist I hate everyone",
">\n\nSame, I see posts like this where people tell us to ride on the sidewalk when it’s illegal. \nThey assume we don’t walk anywhere, drive, etc like we are essentially subhuman for doing exercise.\nThey tell us to ride closer to the right side of the road so we get hit by a car door. \nThey’re mad that we give a verbal signal that we’re coming up on the left even though that’s the law. \nnow that I’m in Colorado I’m getting yelled at for the Idaho stop, which is completely legal. We yield to stop signs and temporarily stop at red light only till it’s clear. It’s all to REDUCE CAR TRAFFIC.\nSo far I’ve had family members die from hit and runs and drunk drivers, but somehow cyclists are the most dangerous thing on the road today.\nWhat is this really about?",
">\n\nI loathe cyclists. Selfish, entitled lycra lunatics.",
">\n\nBe honest, do you realize that it's possible to ride a bicycle and not be selfish, or entitled, or a lunatic, or not wear lycra?",
">\n\nThis thread is such a circlejerk, it's ridiculous.",
">\n\nThat's what I'm here for",
">\n\nIt's because cycling isn't regulated like motor vehicles are but they still get on the roads unlike pedestrians. So they don't have knowledge on the rules of the road that drivers have.\nThere's also some sort of hypocrisy they have where they believe drivers should give way to them because bikes are more vulnerable than cars while expecting pedestrians to give way to them because they're moving faster.",
">\n\n\nSo they don't have knowledge on the rules of the road\n\nPlenty do. Many cyclists also are automobilists. They just feel like they're exempted from respecting trafic rules because it's tiring to stop and go on a bike and they're slower an lighter than cars.",
">\n\nSure you got hit by a truck, but at least you managed to save yourself a little time and avoid waiting for a few seconds. Is what I'd say if they didn't then end up in the hospital",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists, as it should be.",
">\n\nCyclists shouldn’t be on sidewalks",
">\n\nI also cringe a lot when I see the international Reddit community constantly praise us Dutch people for our biking culture. People have no idea how many traffic accidents we get that could have been avoided if we didn’t have cyclists EVERYWHERE who are barely aware of the traffic rules that also apply to them.\nPeople have no idea about how cyclists are almost always right according to our traffic laws, which makes them much more reckless. They cause millions of dollars of damage to cars (and pedestrians) each year, and barely ever face consequences for their irresponsible and reckless behavior in traffic.\nPeople don’t see how cyclists often block traffic because they like to cycle next to each other in pairs, and if you honk they get angry and sometimes even aggressive and try to break your side mirror if they feel like it.\nMany intersections have bicycle lanes that you need to check when making a turn when driving, even though the intersection is already super busy with lots of cars. And guess what, cyclists still ride around fast and recklessly and making sure you don’t hit another car, cyclist AND pedestrian is all the job of one single driver.\nSo all in all, people from countries where driving is a relatively easy and chill thing to do, praise cycling culture in other countries. Try to drive here in busy traffic with thousands of cars AND (RECKLESS) CYCLISTS on the road and then tell me what it’s like.",
">\n\nIt would be much easier to sympathize with cars drivers if they did not need like 60% of the entire transit space leaving cyclists and pedestrians very little.\n\neven though the intersection is already super busy with lots of cars\n\nOfc, because cars are so large and need so much space.",
">\n\nI get that, but why is that my fault? I don’t do the city planning. Besides, cars are much larger than bicycles, so doesn’t it make sense there’s more space needed for cars than for bicycles?\nBut even then, if you don’t want to have any sympathy for motorists, because city planners give them more space than others, that’s just weird. It’s not the motorist’s fault.",
">\n\n\ndoesn’t it make sense there’s more space needed for cars than for bicycles?\n\nWhy a valuable and scarce resource such as the public space in cities should be used predominantly to benefit car users while barring everyone else? \nI just find it much harder to sympathize with the privileged group.",
">\n\nBecause people need to be able to go from A to B?",
">\n\nSo do pedestrians/public transport users/cyclists. But they don't require so much space per person.",
">\n\nWell in The Netherlands public transportation takes up an enormous amount of space and cyclists have their own dedicated lanes almost everywhere. Also motorists have to give public transportation space as we usually have to stop for trams and buses to pass, according to traffic rules. Guess who doesn’t often follow those rules: cyclists.\nHowever, public transportation itself is super busy and unbelievably expensive in The Netherlands. It costs more than 20 Euros to travel ~70 kilometers. That’s why a lot of people still prefer to have a car, and cars simply need infrastructure.\nSo I don’t really get your point. Cars, bicycles and public transportation all get a fair portion of the space that’s available.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist, i hate pedestrians. Here in Germany, there is bike lanes, one part for bikes and one for pedestrians on traffic lights... etc. But the pedestrians just ignore them, form \"walls\" of people blocking the bike lane, dont look while crossing the bike lane. Even cars repect us more than you.",
">\n\nThis I understand. Experienced the same in Denmark",
">\n\nClaaaaaarksoooooonnnnn",
">\n\nIdk about other places but here cyclists are constantly breaking the law and never getting ticketed for it. It makes no sense to me. I don’t think it’d make a huge difference but I do think some cyclists would think twice about disregarding the rules if those rules were actually enforced.",
">\n\nI get the sentiment. My feeling is the root cause is they don’t have their own infrastructure. Cars and peds do. So cyclists are always forced into a non ideal path. \nI’m aware they have rights to the road but cars and bikes really struggle to share an infrastructure clearly made for cars. \nSo if we invest in cycling infrastructure everyone would probably be happier.",
">\n\ndoubt it. In my city there is an asphalt bike path for miles that is like 8 feet wide. Smooth. No stop signs. Do they use it? nope they get their collective ass out on the street and I honestly don't have a clue why.\nIt defies logic. Safter, smooth, not cars/trunks, etc. Here they are out on the street just fiddle farting down a 45 mph road like they own it with a bike path 15 feet away with no one on it. The last guy I asked said \"It is my road as well you know\" that I ran up on while I was at a crossing while riding on the path myself. I just gave up trying to understand. Someone dies on that road every couple of months from bike or pedestrian strike with a vehicle. It was the whole reason they built the path....",
">\n\nWell in my experience there are 2 thing going on there.\na) Often bikers will avoid the path because peds often share or walk across those paths and their speed is closer to that of a car than a ped or \nb) If they are commuting...the path likely isn't going exactly where they need to.\nAs to your specific scenario I don't doubt there are bikers that are hard headed and stubborn. I know a few of those. But generally I do bikers using the infrastructure where we have built it.",
">\n\nThere's an accident here involving @ car running over a cyclist who crossed a red traffic light. And guess who take the blame?",
">\n\nLaughs in being dutch",
">\n\nIt is regrettable that a handful of asshole cyclists ruins everyone’s opinion of us. It really undermines the support needed to improve infrastructure for cycling. \nIf it is any help, when i ring my bell, I am doing so to avoid the alternatives of either yelling a warning or startling people. I normally exit the path and pass on the grass. I would say that most cyclist are the same. I don’t want you to get out of the way, I want you to know I am there. \nBut it only takes a couple assholes that think they own the path or the street. I have a cousin like this and it is difficult to convince him his is wrong and is putting himself and others in danger.",
">\n\nI think the a-holes are people that are only on a bike because it's the easiest thing for them, living where they do. You and those like you are on the bike because you love cycling.",
">\n\nI live in Portland, OR, and the cyclists here are so fucking rude and entitled.",
">\n\nI live in not-Portland OR and visited once. I biked down the road. Could not believe how nice everyone was to me. Probably because they could tell I’m an outsider.",
">\n\nI meant how they treat everyone else who isn't on a bike, tbh.",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists and it's for a simple reason. They think they can do whatever the hell they want. They switch between a pedestrian, a cyclist and a vehicle deciding on the fly whatever rules they feel like following with no accountability. \nOne minute they are skipping traffic, then they are deciding to cross at a crosswalk instead of following traffic. And the sidewalks are bike lanes if that's more convenient.",
">\n\nI just get annoyed because they will ride double wide on a tight street, forcing you to go 60mph in a 45, on the opposite side of traffic, risking a head on collision. And yea, you have to do that, because otherwise cars behind you will start driving aggressive as well as the fact that your expecting all the cars to go at a bikes speed on the road.",
">\n\nThat's because every country except for the Netherlands and Denmark have shit bicycle infrastructure.",
">\n\nI civilised countries we have cycling paths and cycling on the street is also possible as drivers aren't insane. So this seems rather like a problem of poor urban planning than cyclists in general.",
">\n\nWhere I live the cyclists just refuse to take the bikelane and either block the traffic because the rather use the street or they decide to use the pedestrian side of the sidewalk. The frickin bikelane is as big as the pedestrian one. There is no excuse not to use it and they still won't! One of them almost hit me if I hadn't dodge it. If the cyclist only drove a few inches to the left there would have been a bikelane and it wouldn't happened. Of course the person didn't apologize and just cursed at me.",
">\n\nBike gutters are awful and less safe than taking the lane. Assholes park in the bike lanes ALL THE TIME. Plus no one ever looks behind them when getting out pf their car so getting smacked by a door is a real danger. Drivers are entitled but it’s not their fault it’s the way we’ve built society to allow and expect them to be.\nETA: next time you’re driving around take a count how many people you see pulled over or parked in a bike gutter.",
">\n\nCompletely agree - I was ran over almost 3 times in Berlin. \nAnd every single time I checked before crossing - but they just suddenly spawned right in the way",
">\n\nDid you cross at a designated crosswalk? As a cyclist the amount of times people just randomly meander across an active street instead of going to the zebra/lollipop crossing, and then get angry at me when I have to swerve out the way/ brake is comical.",
">\n\nMan, y'all are sad people. \n\"Get off the road!\" Okay, now we are on the sidewalk. \n\"Get off the sidewalk!\" Back in the road again. \n\"They need to ring their bells so we know they're coming! Btw I hate it when they ring their bells so I know they're coming.\"",
">\n\nI hate cyclists like that. I don’t have a car so my bike is my main source of transportation and I don’t ride like that. So far, from what I’ve noticed in my area, I’m the only one that follows the damn rules in my city xD",
">\n\nNo matter where you are and who you are… driver or walker, scooter or flyer… we ALL hate cyclists.",
">\n\nI feel ya. The only thing I hate more than cyclists is electric scooters.",
">\n\nCompletely agree! A cycling license (similar to driving) should be required. Far too many cyclist who doesn’t know (and those who don’t just give a F) about traffic rules.",
">\n\nI completely agree! Cyclists have a lot of rights on the roads, and are very vocal about them, but think they can do whatever the fuck they want at roundabouts and pedestrian crossings.",
">\n\nIt just fascinates me how anyone can walk or drive through a city and genuinely think that bicycles are the problem. Look around you at every turn there are cars jamming the roads. Parked blocking things. Blocking pavements. Driving aggressively. Speeding. Failing to stop. Polluting the air. If they hit you, you are seriously injured or dead. This happens in the thousands. The city absolutely revolves around them.",
">\n\nYou are 100% right. Except I didn't say bicycles are the problem. I said i hate them. I said fuck cars too. I also said bicycles are one of the best alternative for trafic jam in cities.\nCities in Europe weren't made for cars nor bikes. So the problem is the fucking lazy greedy people who decide how to spend our tax money. The problem is people thinking they are all alone on the street. The problem is how stressed everybody is and how it become dangerous.\nNot because I hate how cyclists take revenge from drivers bullies to pedestrians makes me hate a transportation model itself.",
">\n\nIt just seems odd that people can really harp on about cyclists when they are such a trivial issue. Posts like this can get hundreds of replies. People tend to make excuses about cars.",
">\n\nYou just insulted a whole country.",
">\n\nThe Netherlands? It's ok",
">\n\nOk",
">\n\nI judge the actions of the individual not the mode of transport. I find it produces more accurate results.",
">\n\nApparently \"individuals alone are responsible for their own actions\" is the real unpopular opinion here.",
">\n\nIndeed 😀",
">\n\nAs a car driver I also hate cyclists. Saw one on a 45mph the other day despite there being a sidewalk AND a bikelane",
">\n\n45 mph isn't a speed for bike lane or sidewalk. Street is",
">\n\nas a cyclist, I hate pedestrians.\nMy city put in these nice protected bicycle lanes so bikes don't have to ride inches from cars, and boy don't those pedestrians just LOVE using the bike lane as a queuing up spot for the crosswalks. it's just so nice and convenient to get 5 more feet closer to your goal, isn't it? Those bicycles can stop and wait...and feel free to swear at them like THEY are the ones in the wrong.\nBicycles and pedestrians are natural enemies, that's never going to change. There can be only one.",
">\n\nLET'S END THIS NOW !!!!!",
">\n\nanyplace but Holy Ground.",
">\n\ndon't blame all bicyclists for the shitty ones.\nthat would be like saying every person who drives a car is an asshole. or every person who walks on the sidewalk is an asshole.\nsome people are good at getting around. other people are jerks. don't blame everyone for the actions of a small subset of people.",
">\n\nI mean, isn’t that the sentiment over that the popular sub r/fuckcars? The generalization is already being perpetuated from cyclists and “urbanists” in their war against cars.",
">\n\nNot really. That sub mostly hates the focus on cars when designing infrastructure, as well as the forced dependency on cars in our modern world. Not individual drivers.",
">\n\nSure about that? It’s mostly just a bitch-fest about driver errors to further their political agenda.",
">\n\nYea, I'm pretty sure.",
">\n\nReally weird way to get there if that’s the case. Alienating a large portion of the population (car drivers, car riders, people that depend on vehicles for the delivery of goods and services) is not how you get them on your side.",
">\n\nI don't think that's their goal in the first place. It's just a reddit sub.",
">\n\nEspecially when they have a stupid fucking bell and say \"on the left\" then proceed to be on the right side of the trail running into you",
">\n\nHahahha \"is he coming on the left or should i go on the lef...\" BANG!!",
">\n\nGF lives in a college town. It’s as if there’s some kinda fuckin’ death wish among the student cycling population",
">\n\nAs a [insert anyone, including cyclist], I hate cyclists.",
">\n\nPeople don't wanna hear it when it comes from automobilists because \"gngn cars are more dangerous and drivers are entitled\" but reality is cyclists are just the worst. Whether I'm on foot, driving a car, or riding a bicycle myself, cyclists are always always the ones being absolute public hazards. Heck, when I'm on my bike and stop at the stop sign on a cycle lane to let the cars go, they look at me as if I'm jesus or something. They even try to let me pass first because of how used they are to cyclists who just can't be bothered to respect the damn stop sign.",
">\n\nThe problem isn't the cyclists here, it's the lacking infrastructure.",
">\n\nWe shouldn't have to build infrastructure so people can partake in recreation. I find that comment extremely arrogant. Why on earth do cyclists deserve to have their recreation glorified and catered to??",
">\n\nRecreation? Ah yes, cycling is only for recreation.",
">\n\nWell, where I live that I'd the ONLY purpose. I'm 17 miles from any city municipality. Nobody is biking here to go to the grocery store or work.",
">\n\nNot everything is about you personally.",
">\n\nTo me, it is, and should be. My concern is around how cyclists inconvenience me while I'm trying to be a productive member of society. I feel like that's a fair critique.",
">\n\nYou are mad that cyclists inconvenience you yet you reject dedicated infrastructure as a solution. Do you think cyclists should be banned off the road completely?",
">\n\nThe real issue here is lacking cycling infrastructure.",
">\n\nDefinitely a major issue.\nBut part of the issue is definitely cyclists who prioritize their own speed over the safety and welfare of everyone around them. It's like they are all BMW drivers, deep down, and just don't want to yield to or slow down for anyone.",
">\n\nI'm sure there are, assholes exist in all vehicle types.",
">\n\nCyclists know thar neither the pavement nor the road are theirs because motorists and pedestrians like you are both screaming at them all the time. And I swear you'd be angrier if they didn't give a polite warning that they're coming toward you. \nCyclists who breeze through crossings instead of stopping are a minority, much like cyclists are a minority in general, and you can't judge an entire group that aren't adequately represented",
">\n\nFuck traveling in general",
">\n\nYa. Where are our transporters! \nSorry had to go full nerd.",
">\n\nI see posts like this constantly. It blows my mind people can just choose one thing that is so insignificant to scapegoat. \nThey assume people on bikes don’t also walk, drive, etc like we are essentially subhuman for doing exercise / running errands in this way because they are inconvenienced for a few seconds. You realize we are human like you , right?\nPeople tell us to ride bicycles on the sidewalk when it’s illegal while others say not too. It’s usually against the law.\nThey tell us to ride closer to the right side of the road , so we get hit by a car door and yelled at again. \nThey’re mad that we give a verbal signal that we’re coming up on the left even though that’s the law. \nNow that I’m in Colorado I’m getting yelled at for the Idaho stop, which is completely legal. We yield to stop signs and temporarily stop at red lights only if it’s clear. It’s all to REDUCE CAR TRAFFIC. \nKeep in mind we are riding bicycles which in its own right REDUCES CAR TRAFFIC. \n80% of car trips are within 3 miles from your house. Everyone that rides a bike keeps you from being stuck behind them in traffic for longer then the 20 seconds you’re currently inconvenienced. It’s also mean parking closer to the front door of a shop. \nSo far I’ve had family members die from hit and runs and drunk drivers, but somehow cyclists are the most dangerous thing on the road today?! It’s not adding up.\nWhat is this really about?",
">\n\nI'm sorry for your losses. I never said bikers are the most dangerous things on the road. Saying this would be stupid. The problem in my city is the lack of respect from cyclists to pedestrians in a general way. I'm not even talking about drivers against EVERYTHING ON THE STREET.",
">\n\nI go out of my way to be respectful to everybody, and I’ve had nothing but kindness and respect from other cyclists .\nYou wanna blame everybody on a bicycle for all your problems when it’s really just about a few people who disrespected you. \nCyclists are drivers, walkers, etc. do they just jump on a bicycle and instantly become disrespectful?\nStill doesn’t make any logical sense.",
">\n\nDude you just don't get it.. i understand biking is your life.. but come on.\nI use to bike 40km per day to work. \nI don't have problems with people jumping on bikes. I simply hate the ones that are disrespectful.\nIs it too hard to understand? Just me venting coz I feel like a lot of bikers think they are on top of the citizen pyramid? \nI'm not venting about the system here, nor about cars.. just about some (yes some) bikers.\nAnd please there is no need to beg for upvotes on fuckcars how old are you?",
">\n\nI bet your fat.",
">\n\nOf course I fart !",
">\n\nTo you yours and to mine mine; I hate car users and their ilk who are filled with wonton waste and hate for all else who dare travel near them. I stop at all lights, halt for all signs, use a mirror, lights, and hand signals, pull over for cars coming my way so long as there is any room, and use what little biking infrastructure is available to me.\nMy taxes are waste and paid in folly for they assuredly go in portion to your reckless use of a powerful machine and not to my own reckless use of a small self-propelled stick on two wheels to separate lanes and keep them maintained. No, no, I must settle for the gutter and cry glee for that and be ashamed to move to the sidewalk when it suddenly ends and continues a block later down the road. \nFuck your car, your roads, and your selfish desire to pave the world and create cities with 60% of their coverage dedicated to driving a car, parking a car, and separating the world into places for cars and otherwise. You who drive faster and faster, in bigger and bigger cars. I loath you as you loath mine.",
">\n\nI wouldn’t hate cyclists if they didn’t act like road laws don’t apply to em in the city where I live. I’ve seen cyclists not even stop at red lights even with an almost full intersection, and ride the wrong way down one ways.\nEdit: I do wish the city where I live had more bike lanes but yeah.",
">\n\nIf you're going to hate someone, maybe hate the people actually doing those things.\nIf I see someone on a bike rush through a short break on a red light in an otherwise busy intersection, I shake my head and think they are an idiot. I think this while waiting for the light to turn green on my bike.\nSimilarly, when a car illegally stops in a bike lane (which happens ALL THE TIME by the way), I don't turn around and blame the cars moving along legally in the adjacent lane.",
">\n\nPedestrian are the worst.\nWhen i started using bicicle I was very polite: brake, ring, ask for permission. And what the large amount of people do? Ignore u, watch u in the eyes and take a step in the fucking middle of the trail (many many times! for real!), shout at you just because u exist. So.... At some point is fuck you all, I'm coming go out of the way. That's it",
">\n\n\nI will never drive nor park on a bike lane, always look into the mirror to be careful of one of you monkeys. So why can't you be careful when us peasants are walking?\n\nThis is dumb. Obviously there are plenty of cyclists who are careful and courteous about your safety. That's part of what a bell or \"watch out!\" (generally \"On your left\") is doing for you. And just because you are courteous to them doesn't mean everyone is. Is every driver a douchebag just because some of them crowd cyclists when and where the cyclist has the right to the road? No.",
">\n\nThe difference here is that generally car drivers are going to be held accountable for bad driving. This is in the form of dash cams, ANPR and red light cameras which catch drivers doing bad things and they can receive a fine or points on their licence. Cyclists currently can't be held accountable if they jump red lights or hit a car or pedestrian as there isn't anything that helps identify them. This is a big issue in cities. I live and work in London and see many cyclists jumping red lights and weaving around pedestrians crossing. Cars can't do this as most traffic lights have red light cameras that would catch this.\nDrivers as a collective (including me) are in no way perfect or even held to account 100% of the time, but I believe we need a system for cyclists to be held accountable too",
">\n\nYour way of thinking, while perfectly rational and natural, is outdated. Traffic law enforcement, like any other law enforcement, is less about the enforcement, and more about the prevention. Where I live, speed and red light cameras are clearly marked ahead so that the people who'd normally break the law follow it instead, making punishment unnecessary. \nSame could be done with cyclists. Sure, you could make every cyclist install a license plate, require a \"cycling license\", or install expensive cameras with facial identification software, but how about just make it so cyclists aren't incentivised to break the law in the first place? \nMake more useful cycling infrastructure, and more cyclists will use it. Make that infrastructure intersect with foot and motor traffic more safely and less often, and less collisions will happen.",
">\n\nI completely understand your point. However, a lot of money has gone into my local area for cycling infrastructure that most cyclists are using, but many are still choosing to break the rules as the rules are inconvenient. The infrastructure is not enough, there needs to be an incentive NOT to break the rules.\nIf you take a look at Chiswick High Road in London, England. They have created segregated cycle lanes from the traffic. These cycle lanes have their own lights and crossings to keep them safe from cars. However many cyclists just ignore the lights and just keep going into pedestrians. There is no punishment for them doing this as they can't be tracked. Personally I think every cyclist should have to register their bike (make it free to help encourage this) and then a new form of ANPR used to also catch cyclists in the act",
">\n\nPersonally I'd have no problem registering my bike for free, especially if I could use that same registration if it gets stolen, but registering something as mechanically simple and cheap as a bicycle is, in my opinion difficult if not impossible to do without making the bike mechanically complex and expensive, at which point most people would just switch to scooters.\nI don't live in London, but from what I've heard, by far the biggest threat in the city is still motorized traffic, namely cars and lorries, and so until that problem is no longer a problem, I wouldn't really do anything special about bikes. Maybe put some undercover bike cops near the most dangerous bike path/lane intersections to catch a few offenders and make an example out of them, but that's about it.",
">\n\nMost cars I’ve driven came equipped with brakes and a steering wheel. I don’t see the problem",
">\n\nA common take and a stupid one.\nThere are good and bad drivers, pedestrians, and cyclists. Hating any of them as a group because some of them do bad things is just dumb.",
">\n\nIf you followed the laws and stayed out of the bike lane as a pedestrian there would be no problem.",
">\n\nIf bicyclists followed the laws and stopped ignoring street signs/traffic lights there would be no problem.",
">\n\nDon’t see how this address the problem with pedestrians in bike lanes.",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Drivers pedestrians other cyclists. They're a scourge.",
">\n\nEvery word of this is pure wisdom.",
">\n\nAs a car driver, I too hate cyclists.\nI don't care who has 'right of way'. I'm in a car, you're not. If we collide, regardless of fault, you're the one that dies.\nDo you really want to die on the hill that says \"i can bike on the rode b/c it's legal\"?\nI might be in jail, but you're still dead.\nBikes don't belong on public roads. Unless there's a bike lane - aka, a pathway designed specifically for bikers.\nIt's FAR SAFER to bike on the sidewalk.",
">\n\nBe careful you’ll anger r/fuckcars",
">\n\nI recently got a bike in Japan and there isn't any room on the street to ride my bike. Most people are fine when I'm on the sidewalk, however, the worst ones are groups of 2 or more who try and take up as much space as possible allowing nobody to pass. Same with the people who constantly switch between the left and right side of the sidewalk. It's really annoying to see how little spacial awareness they have.",
">\n\nCyclists on the road don’t have to pass the same test as vehicles on the road, which is why they are so bad. If there was a test in order to cycle on the road then i think it would be alot better",
">\n\nWhy do you hate all cyclists when only some of them are rude/dangerous?",
">\n\nCope hehe",
">\n\nIt's the powered vehicles that kill most pedestrians.\nBut, sure, cyclists blahblah...",
">\n\nAs an occasional cyclist, I don't like you either.",
">\n\nI biked everywhere.....when I was a child. I'm an adult now and have an automobile. They are pretty neat.",
">\n\nWhen I used to have to walk to work I’d walk on the sidewalk and listen to music and one time this guy zipped right by me yelling almost knocking me over and flipped me off?? They act like they don’t have breaks lmao",
">\n\nholy smokes! glad you're ok",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Even cyclists.",
">\n\nAnd here i thought why the f pediatrician hate cyclists",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Even other cyclists.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist this thread is hilarious",
">\n\nAnyone got recommendations for how to be a nice, considerate cyclist besides being careful and non-entitled? I plan on starting when it gets warm outside.",
">\n\nNot unpopular",
">\n\nWhen I drive to work, I obey most of the rules. I just can't drive on some roads. That would either kill me at some point or I'd slow down a whole 60 km/h lane that's packed with traffic. When riding on the sidewalk, I always stop or get off my bike if it gets too crowded or the sidewalk narrows. But when no one is around I just keep driving normally, just slower than usual. I try to stay alert at all times and let everyone pass because I know I'm wrong here.\nAt one point there is a one-way street I'm not allowed to drive on, but as my alternatives are the same 60km/h road (but now also with rails) or a crowded sidewalk, I prefer the one-way street with maybe 4 cars per hour that I can easily avoid. After that there is finally a bike path until I get to work. There would be a legal route, but it would take twice, if not triple, the time.\nI also hate reckless cyclists. They have already endangered me and are often unfriendly assholes. I just don't have a death wish and don't want to drive a route in an hour if 20 minutes are possible in a safe way (If the brain gets used).",
">\n\nCyclists don’t care because unless they get injured there are no real consequences for their actions.\nI think that any vehicle, with or without any type of motor, should require a license to operate on a public roadway. Road legal bikes need to be held to quality standards, like cars, and should also be registered. If you wish to ride one on a public roadway it should have a number plate on it. You should have to pass a rider’s ed course proving that you know the rules of the road. There should be a test proving that you can control the vehicle and operate it safely, same as a car or motorcycle."
] |
>
Idk maybe my town is weird like everwhere on the internet and even in statistics you hear stuff like that but then I haven't really seen any cyclists run red lights ever and as someone who maybe not often but sometimes cycles, the last thing I'd do as a cyclist is run a red light like I don't wanna die?
|
[
"I road cycled for years, I always followed the street rules. Always. Red light means red light. \nI have so many cycling friends who get into accidents and other conflicts with drivers, and yet they think it’s stupid to stop at a red light. They just don’t connect these two things",
">\n\nMost bikers I encounter are complete idiots. Like I'd be driving normally and out of nowhere comes a biker on a crosswalk in full speed. Now, I appreciate bikers who actually stop and make eye contact with me as I'm driving towards the crosswalk but man, it's either that or the biker almost dies because I have no time to brake.\nAnd what's up with all the bikers going like 5 kmh IN THE MIDDLE of a road when there's a dedicated sidewalk for bikers right next to them? Drives me insane.",
">\n\nIt seems like most bikers because of observation bias.\nIf you follow the rules as you should, you’re unmemorable.\nAs for the sidewalks - its actually less safe on the sidewalk.",
">\n\nInteresting. Dangerous situations are more valuable to remember, and I remember tons of irresponsible bikers. It is in fact observation bias. But I'm always happy to see those who pay close attention to traffic, and I do remeber some of them aswell.",
">\n\nWell the same goes for driving. How many cars do you remember when they haven’t done anything? But you tend to remember the ones who do something dumb",
">\n\nYeah it can be applied to anything really.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist in one of the most bike-dense cities in the world, I hate cyclists too. If I could avoid getting myself hurt, I’d be ramming at least ten of them a day just to teach a lesson about ignoring rules and common sense.",
">\n\nAmsterdam? Copenhagen?",
">\n\nCopenhagen. It’s a wonderful bike city but the people are incredibly self-centered.",
">\n\nI had high expectations from cyclists when I first visited the city, after all it is heralded as a cycling paradise and, well, let’s say it looked a lot more like the rest of the world and mainly because of the personal behavior of cyclists.\nMy local friend justified it, stating that it’s because danish are more temperamental than all other Scandinavians: an explanation that I really didn’t know what to do with…",
">\n\nIf “temperamental” means “a bunch of egotistical [insert unflattering body part]”, he’s right.",
">\n\nYou make it sound like a war zone. I live in Copenhagen and most of the time biking around the city is very pleasant. Except for the food delivery scooters, they can 🤬 off.",
">\n\nI guess it depends on how often and where you’re going. If you have places to be each and every day and want to get there effectively, people ignoring general rules and courtesies of the road are a pain. If you’re one of the types listening to podcasts with a latte in one hand and a phone in the other just trudging along, it’s probably fine.",
">\n\nSame! I love walking. Where I live on popular trails, there are bike lanes, but the cyclists will just ride wherever they. They don’t care and won’t let you know they’re coming. They’ll get pissy if you don’t just automatically know they’re coming up from behind you. If you do much as step foot in the bike lane, they get mad, but have no problems riding side by side outside the bike lane.",
">\n\nSame here! So much for my pleasant walk on the beautiful Trail. They sneak up and when they're almost on top of me, a loud voice yells \"On your left!\" They startle the shit out of me and cause me to jump sky high! 😡",
">\n\nIt’s literally the law to say that. This thread is all about hating them no matter if they follow the law or not.",
">\n\nIs it possible to do that without sneaking up on them and startling the shit out of them by yelling real loud? And then cutting is close to them as you possibly can without hitting them?",
">\n\nHello. \nMy useless comment to this post is here :D\nSo, i work in the accidents department of a big insurance company. My country is very strickt about the road rules, meaning:\nOur company estimates (is this the right word?) that around 82% of accidents involving cyclists, are to blame on the cyclist. Since there are expecific places on the road for you to ride your bike, even if it's not a bike lane.\nI remember a case where 3 dudes were just cycling, outside of town and they were literally on the middle of the road. the place where they were is full of curves and has very little visibility, so they were riding side by side, middle of the road, comes a car, hits not one, but the 3 of them because they scared the person and she just swerved the car.\nThey sued her and us (insurance) 2 times. Lost both and had to pay for all damage done on the car by their own bodys",
">\n\nThis sounds like something that happened near by my home town, are you in Ontario?",
">\n\nno XD portugal",
">\n\nGod its so much worse that it's happened in multiple places.\nIn ours I think the driver killed one of the cyclists, then sued the family for emotional damage",
">\n\nMy biggest gripe about cyclists is that there is always some danger when you encounter them on the road, either as a pedestrian or motorist. Now, part of it isn’t their fault. At least here in the US, not much of the infrastructure is made for bicycles. But cyclists are constantly breaking the rules of the road (or sidewalk) to get where they’re going faster. Blowing red lights, leaving the bike lane to use the sidewalk, splitting lanes. I always clench a little when I approach one, wondering if this is the day I can’t get out of the way.",
">\n\nWe have that same problem, but then a million times worse, because I live in The Netherlands. You probably know about our proud cycling culture (the Amsterdam stereotype). And yes, cyclists here are just as bad as the ones you describe, but there’s a lot more of them here. And oh yeah, traffic laws are almost always in their favor.",
">\n\nI found driving in the towns of the Netherlands so hard. Not just because I was on the wrong side of the road 😉 but because I just wasn’t used to sooo many cyclists coming from all directions, always faster than me and passing on both sides. Even as I was signalling to leave a roundabout at one point about three cyclists rode past on the inside. I really struggled to keep up with them all, which of course means I drove slower and thus even more bikes passed me!",
">\n\nYes that is of course very difficult, however as a Dutchman I’m used to cyclists, so of course we struggle a lot less. But that doesn’t take away from the fact that cyclists do cause a lot of issues because of their careless behavior, and because as drivers we have to accommodate them. That one sided ‘deal’ that we have makes it very difficult to deal with them.\nAll in all I’m happy we have so many cyclists as it’s good for the environment. But the utopian mindset of cyclists being a gift to the world is just stupid. Especially when you consider that mostly Americans who drive on wide open roads with barely any cyclists around are the ones praising cyclists in my country all the time. Also, cyclists annoy the hell out of pedestrians as well, so it’s not just about motorists.",
">\n\nCyclists treat red lights like stop signs and stop signs like yield signs (at best). They’re not allowed on sidewalks but do it anyway. Fuckin hate cyclists.",
">\n\nEverything you said is completely legal in Denver and sidewalks are illegal , but drivers constantly scream at cyclists to ride there",
">\n\nCyclist can roll stop signs and run red lights in Denver? What the fuck?",
">\n\nI’d have no problem if cyclist had respect for other road users. where I live there are cycle lanes, but most cyclists are on the road or pavements, they ignore red lights etc. \nIf you want to cycle please make it’s safe for yourself and others around you.",
">\n\nExactly my thoughts",
">\n\nHonestly, selfish assholes exist everywhere but a selfish asshole on a bicycle does a lot less damage than a selfish asshole in a car. \nEDIT: OP's also downvoting everyone who disagrees with him, just fyi.",
">\n\nAs a pedestrian, I hate everyone who's not a pedestrian... And some pedestrians too.",
">\n\nThere's a reason so many cyclists die each year, they all seem to pick and choose which laws they want to follow. Its always safer to assume they'll do whatever they want and everyone else needs to adapt to them.",
">\n\nAs a driver downtown, I don't worry at all about pedestrians at intersections, I can turn my head and assume they will be maybe five feet closer to my car when I look back, (and I trust they won't sprint towards me when I look away, at their own peril), but bikes, they ride so fast, that in the short time I turn my head to check for oncoming traffic, a bike could materialize right beside / infront me, and I risk hitting them or them hitting the side of my car. And that's even in their designated bike lane, that I have to pass through to clear the intersection. And if I drive into a ped at three miles per hour, they will just hit my hood with their fist and call me a stupid motherfucker, or whatever makes them feel justice was served, but if I bump the bike, it will be a big crash, the bicyclist will be all curled up in a ball on the ground, I'll be the bad guy in the eyes of the law and anyone nearby, and I'll probably be late as fuck to wherever it is I'm trying to go to.",
">\n\nI skateboard so I guess I'm good",
">\n\nJust don’t inconvenience narcissistic car drivers by a few seconds.",
">\n\nI think everyone hates cyclists. Cyclists included.",
">\n\nAs a driver, I hate you both",
">\n\nPedestrians are literally the worst. Anyone who has to walk more than 20 feet a day and not to their car are complete losers, and should be jailed on site.",
">\n\nOK, I think that's a bit extreme. But hey, if you're running for public office I'll vote for you. \nI do have to wonder anytime I see someone that I know has the mental faculties to drive who is walking. Usually assume too many DUI's.",
">\n\nr/fuckcars ripping out their hair rn",
">\n\nNot unpopular.\n Everyone hates cyclists.",
">\n\nI casually cycle in the summer. If I'm on a trail, I'll slow down and ring my bell if I see pedestrians, or stop and dismount if there's a lot of people or they don't notice me. Especially on the narrow trails in this woodlot I sometimes go to. \nThe problem is a lot of cyclists, especially in North America, but perhaps other places, just aren't respectful of others. They demand car drivers \"share the road\", but then ride in huge packs, lane split, don't signal turns, run stop signs and red lights, weave in and out of traffic, boot up busy sidewalks at 15-20mph, refuse to use provided bike lanes, etc. There's like a gross sense of entitlement in the cycling community. Dude, you're still a vehicle. There's rules that apply to you, just like there are for cars and motorcycles. Big problem is difficulty/lack of enforcement. Cops have to catch them in the act. Even then they're slippery devils since they're usually more mobile than a cruiser or beat cop on foot. This is why I support plating bikes to make them easily identifiable.",
">\n\n\nThere's like a gross sense of entitlement in the cycling community. Dude, you're still a vehicle. There's rules that apply to you, just like there are for cars and motorcycles.\n\nThat is the problem right there. They want to be treated equal to car owners, yet they do not abide by traffic rules, hence all the accidents.",
">\n\nAs a driver, I concur.",
">\n\nI hate bikers on trails. They're supposed to stop and let hikers by but they never do. They go by so freakin' fast too. It's like come on now!",
">\n\nAs a mostly former cyclist, I often hated cyclists too. Mostly, because so many cyclist are just competitive asshats that suck the pleasure out of their own bike ride by making everything about speed. Like, heaven forbid they have to slow and yield to anyone.\nOnce, I was riding my bicycle with my young daughter on a bike path in the city. A couple cyclist came up and got all pissy at us, saying we need to be out of the cycle lane because we were going too slow and my 8 year old kid wasn't keeping to a narrow lane. It was so hostile - my kid started crying.\nBut that is just so typical, all the time. I've gotten yelled out a few times when I made a full, foot down stop at a redlight because the cyclist behind me was expecting me to either run the redlight or at least go into the crosswalk and dance around (like they do) until it went green. I remember nearly getting run over by cyclists all the time, and yelled at if I was going too slow.\nThat being said, we need to do 100,000 x more in the US towards making bike paths, protected bike lanes, etc., because cyling is a truly great way to get around and I miss it. I just don't miss the self-centered asshats that dominate the cycling community.",
">\n\nThis!",
">\n\nI’ve nothing against cyclists as a group. I prefer to hate all people who do stupid things whether they’re in cars, on bikes or walking. Went to pick my daughter up tonight and counted six cyclists in the dark wearing all black with no lights at all plus one with a light so weak I didn’t see it until I was nearly past him. Tonight it was dumb cyclists, but tomorrow it might be idiots in cars. Hate the idiots not the method of transportation.",
">\n\nTrue !",
">\n\nOMG YES !! I completely agree. Every time i tried to explain this to a friend, they would always look at me like I am crazy for thinking such a thing. But as I walk for 45 minutes every days, it became a reality you can't ignore... I can't count how many times I nearly got hit by a cyclist, it happens every other week. I am starting to think that cyclists should have to go through a \"course\" to learn the basics of using the streets x)\n(Sorry for mistakes, not native here 'x) )",
">\n\nThis is my story lol..",
">\n\nYes, and it also is my personal experience, which is why I posted this..?",
">\n\nYes I totally agree. Just saying \"that's my life\" :) happening in Brussels tho",
">\n\nMy bad x) welp France here, it amazes me in a really bad way how this seems to be such a common phenomenon literaly EVERYWHERE",
">\n\nJ'ai roulé en vélo à Paris et laisse tomber l'enfer que c'était. J'avais l'impression d'avancer avec des oies qui insultaient tout le monde. BAa bAAA BAaaAa !!! \nLe problème c'est que plus les gens sont stressés (même les piétons... Genre dans le metro) plus ils se haïssent et ce matin j'avais la haine sur les vélos.. en vrai j'ai la haine sur tous les citadins haha",
">\n\nas a cyclist I hate everyone",
">\n\nSame, I see posts like this where people tell us to ride on the sidewalk when it’s illegal. \nThey assume we don’t walk anywhere, drive, etc like we are essentially subhuman for doing exercise.\nThey tell us to ride closer to the right side of the road so we get hit by a car door. \nThey’re mad that we give a verbal signal that we’re coming up on the left even though that’s the law. \nnow that I’m in Colorado I’m getting yelled at for the Idaho stop, which is completely legal. We yield to stop signs and temporarily stop at red light only till it’s clear. It’s all to REDUCE CAR TRAFFIC.\nSo far I’ve had family members die from hit and runs and drunk drivers, but somehow cyclists are the most dangerous thing on the road today.\nWhat is this really about?",
">\n\nI loathe cyclists. Selfish, entitled lycra lunatics.",
">\n\nBe honest, do you realize that it's possible to ride a bicycle and not be selfish, or entitled, or a lunatic, or not wear lycra?",
">\n\nThis thread is such a circlejerk, it's ridiculous.",
">\n\nThat's what I'm here for",
">\n\nIt's because cycling isn't regulated like motor vehicles are but they still get on the roads unlike pedestrians. So they don't have knowledge on the rules of the road that drivers have.\nThere's also some sort of hypocrisy they have where they believe drivers should give way to them because bikes are more vulnerable than cars while expecting pedestrians to give way to them because they're moving faster.",
">\n\n\nSo they don't have knowledge on the rules of the road\n\nPlenty do. Many cyclists also are automobilists. They just feel like they're exempted from respecting trafic rules because it's tiring to stop and go on a bike and they're slower an lighter than cars.",
">\n\nSure you got hit by a truck, but at least you managed to save yourself a little time and avoid waiting for a few seconds. Is what I'd say if they didn't then end up in the hospital",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists, as it should be.",
">\n\nCyclists shouldn’t be on sidewalks",
">\n\nI also cringe a lot when I see the international Reddit community constantly praise us Dutch people for our biking culture. People have no idea how many traffic accidents we get that could have been avoided if we didn’t have cyclists EVERYWHERE who are barely aware of the traffic rules that also apply to them.\nPeople have no idea about how cyclists are almost always right according to our traffic laws, which makes them much more reckless. They cause millions of dollars of damage to cars (and pedestrians) each year, and barely ever face consequences for their irresponsible and reckless behavior in traffic.\nPeople don’t see how cyclists often block traffic because they like to cycle next to each other in pairs, and if you honk they get angry and sometimes even aggressive and try to break your side mirror if they feel like it.\nMany intersections have bicycle lanes that you need to check when making a turn when driving, even though the intersection is already super busy with lots of cars. And guess what, cyclists still ride around fast and recklessly and making sure you don’t hit another car, cyclist AND pedestrian is all the job of one single driver.\nSo all in all, people from countries where driving is a relatively easy and chill thing to do, praise cycling culture in other countries. Try to drive here in busy traffic with thousands of cars AND (RECKLESS) CYCLISTS on the road and then tell me what it’s like.",
">\n\nIt would be much easier to sympathize with cars drivers if they did not need like 60% of the entire transit space leaving cyclists and pedestrians very little.\n\neven though the intersection is already super busy with lots of cars\n\nOfc, because cars are so large and need so much space.",
">\n\nI get that, but why is that my fault? I don’t do the city planning. Besides, cars are much larger than bicycles, so doesn’t it make sense there’s more space needed for cars than for bicycles?\nBut even then, if you don’t want to have any sympathy for motorists, because city planners give them more space than others, that’s just weird. It’s not the motorist’s fault.",
">\n\n\ndoesn’t it make sense there’s more space needed for cars than for bicycles?\n\nWhy a valuable and scarce resource such as the public space in cities should be used predominantly to benefit car users while barring everyone else? \nI just find it much harder to sympathize with the privileged group.",
">\n\nBecause people need to be able to go from A to B?",
">\n\nSo do pedestrians/public transport users/cyclists. But they don't require so much space per person.",
">\n\nWell in The Netherlands public transportation takes up an enormous amount of space and cyclists have their own dedicated lanes almost everywhere. Also motorists have to give public transportation space as we usually have to stop for trams and buses to pass, according to traffic rules. Guess who doesn’t often follow those rules: cyclists.\nHowever, public transportation itself is super busy and unbelievably expensive in The Netherlands. It costs more than 20 Euros to travel ~70 kilometers. That’s why a lot of people still prefer to have a car, and cars simply need infrastructure.\nSo I don’t really get your point. Cars, bicycles and public transportation all get a fair portion of the space that’s available.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist, i hate pedestrians. Here in Germany, there is bike lanes, one part for bikes and one for pedestrians on traffic lights... etc. But the pedestrians just ignore them, form \"walls\" of people blocking the bike lane, dont look while crossing the bike lane. Even cars repect us more than you.",
">\n\nThis I understand. Experienced the same in Denmark",
">\n\nClaaaaaarksoooooonnnnn",
">\n\nIdk about other places but here cyclists are constantly breaking the law and never getting ticketed for it. It makes no sense to me. I don’t think it’d make a huge difference but I do think some cyclists would think twice about disregarding the rules if those rules were actually enforced.",
">\n\nI get the sentiment. My feeling is the root cause is they don’t have their own infrastructure. Cars and peds do. So cyclists are always forced into a non ideal path. \nI’m aware they have rights to the road but cars and bikes really struggle to share an infrastructure clearly made for cars. \nSo if we invest in cycling infrastructure everyone would probably be happier.",
">\n\ndoubt it. In my city there is an asphalt bike path for miles that is like 8 feet wide. Smooth. No stop signs. Do they use it? nope they get their collective ass out on the street and I honestly don't have a clue why.\nIt defies logic. Safter, smooth, not cars/trunks, etc. Here they are out on the street just fiddle farting down a 45 mph road like they own it with a bike path 15 feet away with no one on it. The last guy I asked said \"It is my road as well you know\" that I ran up on while I was at a crossing while riding on the path myself. I just gave up trying to understand. Someone dies on that road every couple of months from bike or pedestrian strike with a vehicle. It was the whole reason they built the path....",
">\n\nWell in my experience there are 2 thing going on there.\na) Often bikers will avoid the path because peds often share or walk across those paths and their speed is closer to that of a car than a ped or \nb) If they are commuting...the path likely isn't going exactly where they need to.\nAs to your specific scenario I don't doubt there are bikers that are hard headed and stubborn. I know a few of those. But generally I do bikers using the infrastructure where we have built it.",
">\n\nThere's an accident here involving @ car running over a cyclist who crossed a red traffic light. And guess who take the blame?",
">\n\nLaughs in being dutch",
">\n\nIt is regrettable that a handful of asshole cyclists ruins everyone’s opinion of us. It really undermines the support needed to improve infrastructure for cycling. \nIf it is any help, when i ring my bell, I am doing so to avoid the alternatives of either yelling a warning or startling people. I normally exit the path and pass on the grass. I would say that most cyclist are the same. I don’t want you to get out of the way, I want you to know I am there. \nBut it only takes a couple assholes that think they own the path or the street. I have a cousin like this and it is difficult to convince him his is wrong and is putting himself and others in danger.",
">\n\nI think the a-holes are people that are only on a bike because it's the easiest thing for them, living where they do. You and those like you are on the bike because you love cycling.",
">\n\nI live in Portland, OR, and the cyclists here are so fucking rude and entitled.",
">\n\nI live in not-Portland OR and visited once. I biked down the road. Could not believe how nice everyone was to me. Probably because they could tell I’m an outsider.",
">\n\nI meant how they treat everyone else who isn't on a bike, tbh.",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists and it's for a simple reason. They think they can do whatever the hell they want. They switch between a pedestrian, a cyclist and a vehicle deciding on the fly whatever rules they feel like following with no accountability. \nOne minute they are skipping traffic, then they are deciding to cross at a crosswalk instead of following traffic. And the sidewalks are bike lanes if that's more convenient.",
">\n\nI just get annoyed because they will ride double wide on a tight street, forcing you to go 60mph in a 45, on the opposite side of traffic, risking a head on collision. And yea, you have to do that, because otherwise cars behind you will start driving aggressive as well as the fact that your expecting all the cars to go at a bikes speed on the road.",
">\n\nThat's because every country except for the Netherlands and Denmark have shit bicycle infrastructure.",
">\n\nI civilised countries we have cycling paths and cycling on the street is also possible as drivers aren't insane. So this seems rather like a problem of poor urban planning than cyclists in general.",
">\n\nWhere I live the cyclists just refuse to take the bikelane and either block the traffic because the rather use the street or they decide to use the pedestrian side of the sidewalk. The frickin bikelane is as big as the pedestrian one. There is no excuse not to use it and they still won't! One of them almost hit me if I hadn't dodge it. If the cyclist only drove a few inches to the left there would have been a bikelane and it wouldn't happened. Of course the person didn't apologize and just cursed at me.",
">\n\nBike gutters are awful and less safe than taking the lane. Assholes park in the bike lanes ALL THE TIME. Plus no one ever looks behind them when getting out pf their car so getting smacked by a door is a real danger. Drivers are entitled but it’s not their fault it’s the way we’ve built society to allow and expect them to be.\nETA: next time you’re driving around take a count how many people you see pulled over or parked in a bike gutter.",
">\n\nCompletely agree - I was ran over almost 3 times in Berlin. \nAnd every single time I checked before crossing - but they just suddenly spawned right in the way",
">\n\nDid you cross at a designated crosswalk? As a cyclist the amount of times people just randomly meander across an active street instead of going to the zebra/lollipop crossing, and then get angry at me when I have to swerve out the way/ brake is comical.",
">\n\nMan, y'all are sad people. \n\"Get off the road!\" Okay, now we are on the sidewalk. \n\"Get off the sidewalk!\" Back in the road again. \n\"They need to ring their bells so we know they're coming! Btw I hate it when they ring their bells so I know they're coming.\"",
">\n\nI hate cyclists like that. I don’t have a car so my bike is my main source of transportation and I don’t ride like that. So far, from what I’ve noticed in my area, I’m the only one that follows the damn rules in my city xD",
">\n\nNo matter where you are and who you are… driver or walker, scooter or flyer… we ALL hate cyclists.",
">\n\nI feel ya. The only thing I hate more than cyclists is electric scooters.",
">\n\nCompletely agree! A cycling license (similar to driving) should be required. Far too many cyclist who doesn’t know (and those who don’t just give a F) about traffic rules.",
">\n\nI completely agree! Cyclists have a lot of rights on the roads, and are very vocal about them, but think they can do whatever the fuck they want at roundabouts and pedestrian crossings.",
">\n\nIt just fascinates me how anyone can walk or drive through a city and genuinely think that bicycles are the problem. Look around you at every turn there are cars jamming the roads. Parked blocking things. Blocking pavements. Driving aggressively. Speeding. Failing to stop. Polluting the air. If they hit you, you are seriously injured or dead. This happens in the thousands. The city absolutely revolves around them.",
">\n\nYou are 100% right. Except I didn't say bicycles are the problem. I said i hate them. I said fuck cars too. I also said bicycles are one of the best alternative for trafic jam in cities.\nCities in Europe weren't made for cars nor bikes. So the problem is the fucking lazy greedy people who decide how to spend our tax money. The problem is people thinking they are all alone on the street. The problem is how stressed everybody is and how it become dangerous.\nNot because I hate how cyclists take revenge from drivers bullies to pedestrians makes me hate a transportation model itself.",
">\n\nIt just seems odd that people can really harp on about cyclists when they are such a trivial issue. Posts like this can get hundreds of replies. People tend to make excuses about cars.",
">\n\nYou just insulted a whole country.",
">\n\nThe Netherlands? It's ok",
">\n\nOk",
">\n\nI judge the actions of the individual not the mode of transport. I find it produces more accurate results.",
">\n\nApparently \"individuals alone are responsible for their own actions\" is the real unpopular opinion here.",
">\n\nIndeed 😀",
">\n\nAs a car driver I also hate cyclists. Saw one on a 45mph the other day despite there being a sidewalk AND a bikelane",
">\n\n45 mph isn't a speed for bike lane or sidewalk. Street is",
">\n\nas a cyclist, I hate pedestrians.\nMy city put in these nice protected bicycle lanes so bikes don't have to ride inches from cars, and boy don't those pedestrians just LOVE using the bike lane as a queuing up spot for the crosswalks. it's just so nice and convenient to get 5 more feet closer to your goal, isn't it? Those bicycles can stop and wait...and feel free to swear at them like THEY are the ones in the wrong.\nBicycles and pedestrians are natural enemies, that's never going to change. There can be only one.",
">\n\nLET'S END THIS NOW !!!!!",
">\n\nanyplace but Holy Ground.",
">\n\ndon't blame all bicyclists for the shitty ones.\nthat would be like saying every person who drives a car is an asshole. or every person who walks on the sidewalk is an asshole.\nsome people are good at getting around. other people are jerks. don't blame everyone for the actions of a small subset of people.",
">\n\nI mean, isn’t that the sentiment over that the popular sub r/fuckcars? The generalization is already being perpetuated from cyclists and “urbanists” in their war against cars.",
">\n\nNot really. That sub mostly hates the focus on cars when designing infrastructure, as well as the forced dependency on cars in our modern world. Not individual drivers.",
">\n\nSure about that? It’s mostly just a bitch-fest about driver errors to further their political agenda.",
">\n\nYea, I'm pretty sure.",
">\n\nReally weird way to get there if that’s the case. Alienating a large portion of the population (car drivers, car riders, people that depend on vehicles for the delivery of goods and services) is not how you get them on your side.",
">\n\nI don't think that's their goal in the first place. It's just a reddit sub.",
">\n\nEspecially when they have a stupid fucking bell and say \"on the left\" then proceed to be on the right side of the trail running into you",
">\n\nHahahha \"is he coming on the left or should i go on the lef...\" BANG!!",
">\n\nGF lives in a college town. It’s as if there’s some kinda fuckin’ death wish among the student cycling population",
">\n\nAs a [insert anyone, including cyclist], I hate cyclists.",
">\n\nPeople don't wanna hear it when it comes from automobilists because \"gngn cars are more dangerous and drivers are entitled\" but reality is cyclists are just the worst. Whether I'm on foot, driving a car, or riding a bicycle myself, cyclists are always always the ones being absolute public hazards. Heck, when I'm on my bike and stop at the stop sign on a cycle lane to let the cars go, they look at me as if I'm jesus or something. They even try to let me pass first because of how used they are to cyclists who just can't be bothered to respect the damn stop sign.",
">\n\nThe problem isn't the cyclists here, it's the lacking infrastructure.",
">\n\nWe shouldn't have to build infrastructure so people can partake in recreation. I find that comment extremely arrogant. Why on earth do cyclists deserve to have their recreation glorified and catered to??",
">\n\nRecreation? Ah yes, cycling is only for recreation.",
">\n\nWell, where I live that I'd the ONLY purpose. I'm 17 miles from any city municipality. Nobody is biking here to go to the grocery store or work.",
">\n\nNot everything is about you personally.",
">\n\nTo me, it is, and should be. My concern is around how cyclists inconvenience me while I'm trying to be a productive member of society. I feel like that's a fair critique.",
">\n\nYou are mad that cyclists inconvenience you yet you reject dedicated infrastructure as a solution. Do you think cyclists should be banned off the road completely?",
">\n\nThe real issue here is lacking cycling infrastructure.",
">\n\nDefinitely a major issue.\nBut part of the issue is definitely cyclists who prioritize their own speed over the safety and welfare of everyone around them. It's like they are all BMW drivers, deep down, and just don't want to yield to or slow down for anyone.",
">\n\nI'm sure there are, assholes exist in all vehicle types.",
">\n\nCyclists know thar neither the pavement nor the road are theirs because motorists and pedestrians like you are both screaming at them all the time. And I swear you'd be angrier if they didn't give a polite warning that they're coming toward you. \nCyclists who breeze through crossings instead of stopping are a minority, much like cyclists are a minority in general, and you can't judge an entire group that aren't adequately represented",
">\n\nFuck traveling in general",
">\n\nYa. Where are our transporters! \nSorry had to go full nerd.",
">\n\nI see posts like this constantly. It blows my mind people can just choose one thing that is so insignificant to scapegoat. \nThey assume people on bikes don’t also walk, drive, etc like we are essentially subhuman for doing exercise / running errands in this way because they are inconvenienced for a few seconds. You realize we are human like you , right?\nPeople tell us to ride bicycles on the sidewalk when it’s illegal while others say not too. It’s usually against the law.\nThey tell us to ride closer to the right side of the road , so we get hit by a car door and yelled at again. \nThey’re mad that we give a verbal signal that we’re coming up on the left even though that’s the law. \nNow that I’m in Colorado I’m getting yelled at for the Idaho stop, which is completely legal. We yield to stop signs and temporarily stop at red lights only if it’s clear. It’s all to REDUCE CAR TRAFFIC. \nKeep in mind we are riding bicycles which in its own right REDUCES CAR TRAFFIC. \n80% of car trips are within 3 miles from your house. Everyone that rides a bike keeps you from being stuck behind them in traffic for longer then the 20 seconds you’re currently inconvenienced. It’s also mean parking closer to the front door of a shop. \nSo far I’ve had family members die from hit and runs and drunk drivers, but somehow cyclists are the most dangerous thing on the road today?! It’s not adding up.\nWhat is this really about?",
">\n\nI'm sorry for your losses. I never said bikers are the most dangerous things on the road. Saying this would be stupid. The problem in my city is the lack of respect from cyclists to pedestrians in a general way. I'm not even talking about drivers against EVERYTHING ON THE STREET.",
">\n\nI go out of my way to be respectful to everybody, and I’ve had nothing but kindness and respect from other cyclists .\nYou wanna blame everybody on a bicycle for all your problems when it’s really just about a few people who disrespected you. \nCyclists are drivers, walkers, etc. do they just jump on a bicycle and instantly become disrespectful?\nStill doesn’t make any logical sense.",
">\n\nDude you just don't get it.. i understand biking is your life.. but come on.\nI use to bike 40km per day to work. \nI don't have problems with people jumping on bikes. I simply hate the ones that are disrespectful.\nIs it too hard to understand? Just me venting coz I feel like a lot of bikers think they are on top of the citizen pyramid? \nI'm not venting about the system here, nor about cars.. just about some (yes some) bikers.\nAnd please there is no need to beg for upvotes on fuckcars how old are you?",
">\n\nI bet your fat.",
">\n\nOf course I fart !",
">\n\nTo you yours and to mine mine; I hate car users and their ilk who are filled with wonton waste and hate for all else who dare travel near them. I stop at all lights, halt for all signs, use a mirror, lights, and hand signals, pull over for cars coming my way so long as there is any room, and use what little biking infrastructure is available to me.\nMy taxes are waste and paid in folly for they assuredly go in portion to your reckless use of a powerful machine and not to my own reckless use of a small self-propelled stick on two wheels to separate lanes and keep them maintained. No, no, I must settle for the gutter and cry glee for that and be ashamed to move to the sidewalk when it suddenly ends and continues a block later down the road. \nFuck your car, your roads, and your selfish desire to pave the world and create cities with 60% of their coverage dedicated to driving a car, parking a car, and separating the world into places for cars and otherwise. You who drive faster and faster, in bigger and bigger cars. I loath you as you loath mine.",
">\n\nI wouldn’t hate cyclists if they didn’t act like road laws don’t apply to em in the city where I live. I’ve seen cyclists not even stop at red lights even with an almost full intersection, and ride the wrong way down one ways.\nEdit: I do wish the city where I live had more bike lanes but yeah.",
">\n\nIf you're going to hate someone, maybe hate the people actually doing those things.\nIf I see someone on a bike rush through a short break on a red light in an otherwise busy intersection, I shake my head and think they are an idiot. I think this while waiting for the light to turn green on my bike.\nSimilarly, when a car illegally stops in a bike lane (which happens ALL THE TIME by the way), I don't turn around and blame the cars moving along legally in the adjacent lane.",
">\n\nPedestrian are the worst.\nWhen i started using bicicle I was very polite: brake, ring, ask for permission. And what the large amount of people do? Ignore u, watch u in the eyes and take a step in the fucking middle of the trail (many many times! for real!), shout at you just because u exist. So.... At some point is fuck you all, I'm coming go out of the way. That's it",
">\n\n\nI will never drive nor park on a bike lane, always look into the mirror to be careful of one of you monkeys. So why can't you be careful when us peasants are walking?\n\nThis is dumb. Obviously there are plenty of cyclists who are careful and courteous about your safety. That's part of what a bell or \"watch out!\" (generally \"On your left\") is doing for you. And just because you are courteous to them doesn't mean everyone is. Is every driver a douchebag just because some of them crowd cyclists when and where the cyclist has the right to the road? No.",
">\n\nThe difference here is that generally car drivers are going to be held accountable for bad driving. This is in the form of dash cams, ANPR and red light cameras which catch drivers doing bad things and they can receive a fine or points on their licence. Cyclists currently can't be held accountable if they jump red lights or hit a car or pedestrian as there isn't anything that helps identify them. This is a big issue in cities. I live and work in London and see many cyclists jumping red lights and weaving around pedestrians crossing. Cars can't do this as most traffic lights have red light cameras that would catch this.\nDrivers as a collective (including me) are in no way perfect or even held to account 100% of the time, but I believe we need a system for cyclists to be held accountable too",
">\n\nYour way of thinking, while perfectly rational and natural, is outdated. Traffic law enforcement, like any other law enforcement, is less about the enforcement, and more about the prevention. Where I live, speed and red light cameras are clearly marked ahead so that the people who'd normally break the law follow it instead, making punishment unnecessary. \nSame could be done with cyclists. Sure, you could make every cyclist install a license plate, require a \"cycling license\", or install expensive cameras with facial identification software, but how about just make it so cyclists aren't incentivised to break the law in the first place? \nMake more useful cycling infrastructure, and more cyclists will use it. Make that infrastructure intersect with foot and motor traffic more safely and less often, and less collisions will happen.",
">\n\nI completely understand your point. However, a lot of money has gone into my local area for cycling infrastructure that most cyclists are using, but many are still choosing to break the rules as the rules are inconvenient. The infrastructure is not enough, there needs to be an incentive NOT to break the rules.\nIf you take a look at Chiswick High Road in London, England. They have created segregated cycle lanes from the traffic. These cycle lanes have their own lights and crossings to keep them safe from cars. However many cyclists just ignore the lights and just keep going into pedestrians. There is no punishment for them doing this as they can't be tracked. Personally I think every cyclist should have to register their bike (make it free to help encourage this) and then a new form of ANPR used to also catch cyclists in the act",
">\n\nPersonally I'd have no problem registering my bike for free, especially if I could use that same registration if it gets stolen, but registering something as mechanically simple and cheap as a bicycle is, in my opinion difficult if not impossible to do without making the bike mechanically complex and expensive, at which point most people would just switch to scooters.\nI don't live in London, but from what I've heard, by far the biggest threat in the city is still motorized traffic, namely cars and lorries, and so until that problem is no longer a problem, I wouldn't really do anything special about bikes. Maybe put some undercover bike cops near the most dangerous bike path/lane intersections to catch a few offenders and make an example out of them, but that's about it.",
">\n\nMost cars I’ve driven came equipped with brakes and a steering wheel. I don’t see the problem",
">\n\nA common take and a stupid one.\nThere are good and bad drivers, pedestrians, and cyclists. Hating any of them as a group because some of them do bad things is just dumb.",
">\n\nIf you followed the laws and stayed out of the bike lane as a pedestrian there would be no problem.",
">\n\nIf bicyclists followed the laws and stopped ignoring street signs/traffic lights there would be no problem.",
">\n\nDon’t see how this address the problem with pedestrians in bike lanes.",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Drivers pedestrians other cyclists. They're a scourge.",
">\n\nEvery word of this is pure wisdom.",
">\n\nAs a car driver, I too hate cyclists.\nI don't care who has 'right of way'. I'm in a car, you're not. If we collide, regardless of fault, you're the one that dies.\nDo you really want to die on the hill that says \"i can bike on the rode b/c it's legal\"?\nI might be in jail, but you're still dead.\nBikes don't belong on public roads. Unless there's a bike lane - aka, a pathway designed specifically for bikers.\nIt's FAR SAFER to bike on the sidewalk.",
">\n\nBe careful you’ll anger r/fuckcars",
">\n\nI recently got a bike in Japan and there isn't any room on the street to ride my bike. Most people are fine when I'm on the sidewalk, however, the worst ones are groups of 2 or more who try and take up as much space as possible allowing nobody to pass. Same with the people who constantly switch between the left and right side of the sidewalk. It's really annoying to see how little spacial awareness they have.",
">\n\nCyclists on the road don’t have to pass the same test as vehicles on the road, which is why they are so bad. If there was a test in order to cycle on the road then i think it would be alot better",
">\n\nWhy do you hate all cyclists when only some of them are rude/dangerous?",
">\n\nCope hehe",
">\n\nIt's the powered vehicles that kill most pedestrians.\nBut, sure, cyclists blahblah...",
">\n\nAs an occasional cyclist, I don't like you either.",
">\n\nI biked everywhere.....when I was a child. I'm an adult now and have an automobile. They are pretty neat.",
">\n\nWhen I used to have to walk to work I’d walk on the sidewalk and listen to music and one time this guy zipped right by me yelling almost knocking me over and flipped me off?? They act like they don’t have breaks lmao",
">\n\nholy smokes! glad you're ok",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Even cyclists.",
">\n\nAnd here i thought why the f pediatrician hate cyclists",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Even other cyclists.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist this thread is hilarious",
">\n\nAnyone got recommendations for how to be a nice, considerate cyclist besides being careful and non-entitled? I plan on starting when it gets warm outside.",
">\n\nNot unpopular",
">\n\nWhen I drive to work, I obey most of the rules. I just can't drive on some roads. That would either kill me at some point or I'd slow down a whole 60 km/h lane that's packed with traffic. When riding on the sidewalk, I always stop or get off my bike if it gets too crowded or the sidewalk narrows. But when no one is around I just keep driving normally, just slower than usual. I try to stay alert at all times and let everyone pass because I know I'm wrong here.\nAt one point there is a one-way street I'm not allowed to drive on, but as my alternatives are the same 60km/h road (but now also with rails) or a crowded sidewalk, I prefer the one-way street with maybe 4 cars per hour that I can easily avoid. After that there is finally a bike path until I get to work. There would be a legal route, but it would take twice, if not triple, the time.\nI also hate reckless cyclists. They have already endangered me and are often unfriendly assholes. I just don't have a death wish and don't want to drive a route in an hour if 20 minutes are possible in a safe way (If the brain gets used).",
">\n\nCyclists don’t care because unless they get injured there are no real consequences for their actions.\nI think that any vehicle, with or without any type of motor, should require a license to operate on a public roadway. Road legal bikes need to be held to quality standards, like cars, and should also be registered. If you wish to ride one on a public roadway it should have a number plate on it. You should have to pass a rider’s ed course proving that you know the rules of the road. There should be a test proving that you can control the vehicle and operate it safely, same as a car or motorcycle.",
">\n\nYeah I’ve nearly been run over from behind by cyclists on sidewalks too many times"
] |
>
Only people that like cyclist.. are probably just other cyclists.
|
[
"I road cycled for years, I always followed the street rules. Always. Red light means red light. \nI have so many cycling friends who get into accidents and other conflicts with drivers, and yet they think it’s stupid to stop at a red light. They just don’t connect these two things",
">\n\nMost bikers I encounter are complete idiots. Like I'd be driving normally and out of nowhere comes a biker on a crosswalk in full speed. Now, I appreciate bikers who actually stop and make eye contact with me as I'm driving towards the crosswalk but man, it's either that or the biker almost dies because I have no time to brake.\nAnd what's up with all the bikers going like 5 kmh IN THE MIDDLE of a road when there's a dedicated sidewalk for bikers right next to them? Drives me insane.",
">\n\nIt seems like most bikers because of observation bias.\nIf you follow the rules as you should, you’re unmemorable.\nAs for the sidewalks - its actually less safe on the sidewalk.",
">\n\nInteresting. Dangerous situations are more valuable to remember, and I remember tons of irresponsible bikers. It is in fact observation bias. But I'm always happy to see those who pay close attention to traffic, and I do remeber some of them aswell.",
">\n\nWell the same goes for driving. How many cars do you remember when they haven’t done anything? But you tend to remember the ones who do something dumb",
">\n\nYeah it can be applied to anything really.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist in one of the most bike-dense cities in the world, I hate cyclists too. If I could avoid getting myself hurt, I’d be ramming at least ten of them a day just to teach a lesson about ignoring rules and common sense.",
">\n\nAmsterdam? Copenhagen?",
">\n\nCopenhagen. It’s a wonderful bike city but the people are incredibly self-centered.",
">\n\nI had high expectations from cyclists when I first visited the city, after all it is heralded as a cycling paradise and, well, let’s say it looked a lot more like the rest of the world and mainly because of the personal behavior of cyclists.\nMy local friend justified it, stating that it’s because danish are more temperamental than all other Scandinavians: an explanation that I really didn’t know what to do with…",
">\n\nIf “temperamental” means “a bunch of egotistical [insert unflattering body part]”, he’s right.",
">\n\nYou make it sound like a war zone. I live in Copenhagen and most of the time biking around the city is very pleasant. Except for the food delivery scooters, they can 🤬 off.",
">\n\nI guess it depends on how often and where you’re going. If you have places to be each and every day and want to get there effectively, people ignoring general rules and courtesies of the road are a pain. If you’re one of the types listening to podcasts with a latte in one hand and a phone in the other just trudging along, it’s probably fine.",
">\n\nSame! I love walking. Where I live on popular trails, there are bike lanes, but the cyclists will just ride wherever they. They don’t care and won’t let you know they’re coming. They’ll get pissy if you don’t just automatically know they’re coming up from behind you. If you do much as step foot in the bike lane, they get mad, but have no problems riding side by side outside the bike lane.",
">\n\nSame here! So much for my pleasant walk on the beautiful Trail. They sneak up and when they're almost on top of me, a loud voice yells \"On your left!\" They startle the shit out of me and cause me to jump sky high! 😡",
">\n\nIt’s literally the law to say that. This thread is all about hating them no matter if they follow the law or not.",
">\n\nIs it possible to do that without sneaking up on them and startling the shit out of them by yelling real loud? And then cutting is close to them as you possibly can without hitting them?",
">\n\nHello. \nMy useless comment to this post is here :D\nSo, i work in the accidents department of a big insurance company. My country is very strickt about the road rules, meaning:\nOur company estimates (is this the right word?) that around 82% of accidents involving cyclists, are to blame on the cyclist. Since there are expecific places on the road for you to ride your bike, even if it's not a bike lane.\nI remember a case where 3 dudes were just cycling, outside of town and they were literally on the middle of the road. the place where they were is full of curves and has very little visibility, so they were riding side by side, middle of the road, comes a car, hits not one, but the 3 of them because they scared the person and she just swerved the car.\nThey sued her and us (insurance) 2 times. Lost both and had to pay for all damage done on the car by their own bodys",
">\n\nThis sounds like something that happened near by my home town, are you in Ontario?",
">\n\nno XD portugal",
">\n\nGod its so much worse that it's happened in multiple places.\nIn ours I think the driver killed one of the cyclists, then sued the family for emotional damage",
">\n\nMy biggest gripe about cyclists is that there is always some danger when you encounter them on the road, either as a pedestrian or motorist. Now, part of it isn’t their fault. At least here in the US, not much of the infrastructure is made for bicycles. But cyclists are constantly breaking the rules of the road (or sidewalk) to get where they’re going faster. Blowing red lights, leaving the bike lane to use the sidewalk, splitting lanes. I always clench a little when I approach one, wondering if this is the day I can’t get out of the way.",
">\n\nWe have that same problem, but then a million times worse, because I live in The Netherlands. You probably know about our proud cycling culture (the Amsterdam stereotype). And yes, cyclists here are just as bad as the ones you describe, but there’s a lot more of them here. And oh yeah, traffic laws are almost always in their favor.",
">\n\nI found driving in the towns of the Netherlands so hard. Not just because I was on the wrong side of the road 😉 but because I just wasn’t used to sooo many cyclists coming from all directions, always faster than me and passing on both sides. Even as I was signalling to leave a roundabout at one point about three cyclists rode past on the inside. I really struggled to keep up with them all, which of course means I drove slower and thus even more bikes passed me!",
">\n\nYes that is of course very difficult, however as a Dutchman I’m used to cyclists, so of course we struggle a lot less. But that doesn’t take away from the fact that cyclists do cause a lot of issues because of their careless behavior, and because as drivers we have to accommodate them. That one sided ‘deal’ that we have makes it very difficult to deal with them.\nAll in all I’m happy we have so many cyclists as it’s good for the environment. But the utopian mindset of cyclists being a gift to the world is just stupid. Especially when you consider that mostly Americans who drive on wide open roads with barely any cyclists around are the ones praising cyclists in my country all the time. Also, cyclists annoy the hell out of pedestrians as well, so it’s not just about motorists.",
">\n\nCyclists treat red lights like stop signs and stop signs like yield signs (at best). They’re not allowed on sidewalks but do it anyway. Fuckin hate cyclists.",
">\n\nEverything you said is completely legal in Denver and sidewalks are illegal , but drivers constantly scream at cyclists to ride there",
">\n\nCyclist can roll stop signs and run red lights in Denver? What the fuck?",
">\n\nI’d have no problem if cyclist had respect for other road users. where I live there are cycle lanes, but most cyclists are on the road or pavements, they ignore red lights etc. \nIf you want to cycle please make it’s safe for yourself and others around you.",
">\n\nExactly my thoughts",
">\n\nHonestly, selfish assholes exist everywhere but a selfish asshole on a bicycle does a lot less damage than a selfish asshole in a car. \nEDIT: OP's also downvoting everyone who disagrees with him, just fyi.",
">\n\nAs a pedestrian, I hate everyone who's not a pedestrian... And some pedestrians too.",
">\n\nThere's a reason so many cyclists die each year, they all seem to pick and choose which laws they want to follow. Its always safer to assume they'll do whatever they want and everyone else needs to adapt to them.",
">\n\nAs a driver downtown, I don't worry at all about pedestrians at intersections, I can turn my head and assume they will be maybe five feet closer to my car when I look back, (and I trust they won't sprint towards me when I look away, at their own peril), but bikes, they ride so fast, that in the short time I turn my head to check for oncoming traffic, a bike could materialize right beside / infront me, and I risk hitting them or them hitting the side of my car. And that's even in their designated bike lane, that I have to pass through to clear the intersection. And if I drive into a ped at three miles per hour, they will just hit my hood with their fist and call me a stupid motherfucker, or whatever makes them feel justice was served, but if I bump the bike, it will be a big crash, the bicyclist will be all curled up in a ball on the ground, I'll be the bad guy in the eyes of the law and anyone nearby, and I'll probably be late as fuck to wherever it is I'm trying to go to.",
">\n\nI skateboard so I guess I'm good",
">\n\nJust don’t inconvenience narcissistic car drivers by a few seconds.",
">\n\nI think everyone hates cyclists. Cyclists included.",
">\n\nAs a driver, I hate you both",
">\n\nPedestrians are literally the worst. Anyone who has to walk more than 20 feet a day and not to their car are complete losers, and should be jailed on site.",
">\n\nOK, I think that's a bit extreme. But hey, if you're running for public office I'll vote for you. \nI do have to wonder anytime I see someone that I know has the mental faculties to drive who is walking. Usually assume too many DUI's.",
">\n\nr/fuckcars ripping out their hair rn",
">\n\nNot unpopular.\n Everyone hates cyclists.",
">\n\nI casually cycle in the summer. If I'm on a trail, I'll slow down and ring my bell if I see pedestrians, or stop and dismount if there's a lot of people or they don't notice me. Especially on the narrow trails in this woodlot I sometimes go to. \nThe problem is a lot of cyclists, especially in North America, but perhaps other places, just aren't respectful of others. They demand car drivers \"share the road\", but then ride in huge packs, lane split, don't signal turns, run stop signs and red lights, weave in and out of traffic, boot up busy sidewalks at 15-20mph, refuse to use provided bike lanes, etc. There's like a gross sense of entitlement in the cycling community. Dude, you're still a vehicle. There's rules that apply to you, just like there are for cars and motorcycles. Big problem is difficulty/lack of enforcement. Cops have to catch them in the act. Even then they're slippery devils since they're usually more mobile than a cruiser or beat cop on foot. This is why I support plating bikes to make them easily identifiable.",
">\n\n\nThere's like a gross sense of entitlement in the cycling community. Dude, you're still a vehicle. There's rules that apply to you, just like there are for cars and motorcycles.\n\nThat is the problem right there. They want to be treated equal to car owners, yet they do not abide by traffic rules, hence all the accidents.",
">\n\nAs a driver, I concur.",
">\n\nI hate bikers on trails. They're supposed to stop and let hikers by but they never do. They go by so freakin' fast too. It's like come on now!",
">\n\nAs a mostly former cyclist, I often hated cyclists too. Mostly, because so many cyclist are just competitive asshats that suck the pleasure out of their own bike ride by making everything about speed. Like, heaven forbid they have to slow and yield to anyone.\nOnce, I was riding my bicycle with my young daughter on a bike path in the city. A couple cyclist came up and got all pissy at us, saying we need to be out of the cycle lane because we were going too slow and my 8 year old kid wasn't keeping to a narrow lane. It was so hostile - my kid started crying.\nBut that is just so typical, all the time. I've gotten yelled out a few times when I made a full, foot down stop at a redlight because the cyclist behind me was expecting me to either run the redlight or at least go into the crosswalk and dance around (like they do) until it went green. I remember nearly getting run over by cyclists all the time, and yelled at if I was going too slow.\nThat being said, we need to do 100,000 x more in the US towards making bike paths, protected bike lanes, etc., because cyling is a truly great way to get around and I miss it. I just don't miss the self-centered asshats that dominate the cycling community.",
">\n\nThis!",
">\n\nI’ve nothing against cyclists as a group. I prefer to hate all people who do stupid things whether they’re in cars, on bikes or walking. Went to pick my daughter up tonight and counted six cyclists in the dark wearing all black with no lights at all plus one with a light so weak I didn’t see it until I was nearly past him. Tonight it was dumb cyclists, but tomorrow it might be idiots in cars. Hate the idiots not the method of transportation.",
">\n\nTrue !",
">\n\nOMG YES !! I completely agree. Every time i tried to explain this to a friend, they would always look at me like I am crazy for thinking such a thing. But as I walk for 45 minutes every days, it became a reality you can't ignore... I can't count how many times I nearly got hit by a cyclist, it happens every other week. I am starting to think that cyclists should have to go through a \"course\" to learn the basics of using the streets x)\n(Sorry for mistakes, not native here 'x) )",
">\n\nThis is my story lol..",
">\n\nYes, and it also is my personal experience, which is why I posted this..?",
">\n\nYes I totally agree. Just saying \"that's my life\" :) happening in Brussels tho",
">\n\nMy bad x) welp France here, it amazes me in a really bad way how this seems to be such a common phenomenon literaly EVERYWHERE",
">\n\nJ'ai roulé en vélo à Paris et laisse tomber l'enfer que c'était. J'avais l'impression d'avancer avec des oies qui insultaient tout le monde. BAa bAAA BAaaAa !!! \nLe problème c'est que plus les gens sont stressés (même les piétons... Genre dans le metro) plus ils se haïssent et ce matin j'avais la haine sur les vélos.. en vrai j'ai la haine sur tous les citadins haha",
">\n\nas a cyclist I hate everyone",
">\n\nSame, I see posts like this where people tell us to ride on the sidewalk when it’s illegal. \nThey assume we don’t walk anywhere, drive, etc like we are essentially subhuman for doing exercise.\nThey tell us to ride closer to the right side of the road so we get hit by a car door. \nThey’re mad that we give a verbal signal that we’re coming up on the left even though that’s the law. \nnow that I’m in Colorado I’m getting yelled at for the Idaho stop, which is completely legal. We yield to stop signs and temporarily stop at red light only till it’s clear. It’s all to REDUCE CAR TRAFFIC.\nSo far I’ve had family members die from hit and runs and drunk drivers, but somehow cyclists are the most dangerous thing on the road today.\nWhat is this really about?",
">\n\nI loathe cyclists. Selfish, entitled lycra lunatics.",
">\n\nBe honest, do you realize that it's possible to ride a bicycle and not be selfish, or entitled, or a lunatic, or not wear lycra?",
">\n\nThis thread is such a circlejerk, it's ridiculous.",
">\n\nThat's what I'm here for",
">\n\nIt's because cycling isn't regulated like motor vehicles are but they still get on the roads unlike pedestrians. So they don't have knowledge on the rules of the road that drivers have.\nThere's also some sort of hypocrisy they have where they believe drivers should give way to them because bikes are more vulnerable than cars while expecting pedestrians to give way to them because they're moving faster.",
">\n\n\nSo they don't have knowledge on the rules of the road\n\nPlenty do. Many cyclists also are automobilists. They just feel like they're exempted from respecting trafic rules because it's tiring to stop and go on a bike and they're slower an lighter than cars.",
">\n\nSure you got hit by a truck, but at least you managed to save yourself a little time and avoid waiting for a few seconds. Is what I'd say if they didn't then end up in the hospital",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists, as it should be.",
">\n\nCyclists shouldn’t be on sidewalks",
">\n\nI also cringe a lot when I see the international Reddit community constantly praise us Dutch people for our biking culture. People have no idea how many traffic accidents we get that could have been avoided if we didn’t have cyclists EVERYWHERE who are barely aware of the traffic rules that also apply to them.\nPeople have no idea about how cyclists are almost always right according to our traffic laws, which makes them much more reckless. They cause millions of dollars of damage to cars (and pedestrians) each year, and barely ever face consequences for their irresponsible and reckless behavior in traffic.\nPeople don’t see how cyclists often block traffic because they like to cycle next to each other in pairs, and if you honk they get angry and sometimes even aggressive and try to break your side mirror if they feel like it.\nMany intersections have bicycle lanes that you need to check when making a turn when driving, even though the intersection is already super busy with lots of cars. And guess what, cyclists still ride around fast and recklessly and making sure you don’t hit another car, cyclist AND pedestrian is all the job of one single driver.\nSo all in all, people from countries where driving is a relatively easy and chill thing to do, praise cycling culture in other countries. Try to drive here in busy traffic with thousands of cars AND (RECKLESS) CYCLISTS on the road and then tell me what it’s like.",
">\n\nIt would be much easier to sympathize with cars drivers if they did not need like 60% of the entire transit space leaving cyclists and pedestrians very little.\n\neven though the intersection is already super busy with lots of cars\n\nOfc, because cars are so large and need so much space.",
">\n\nI get that, but why is that my fault? I don’t do the city planning. Besides, cars are much larger than bicycles, so doesn’t it make sense there’s more space needed for cars than for bicycles?\nBut even then, if you don’t want to have any sympathy for motorists, because city planners give them more space than others, that’s just weird. It’s not the motorist’s fault.",
">\n\n\ndoesn’t it make sense there’s more space needed for cars than for bicycles?\n\nWhy a valuable and scarce resource such as the public space in cities should be used predominantly to benefit car users while barring everyone else? \nI just find it much harder to sympathize with the privileged group.",
">\n\nBecause people need to be able to go from A to B?",
">\n\nSo do pedestrians/public transport users/cyclists. But they don't require so much space per person.",
">\n\nWell in The Netherlands public transportation takes up an enormous amount of space and cyclists have their own dedicated lanes almost everywhere. Also motorists have to give public transportation space as we usually have to stop for trams and buses to pass, according to traffic rules. Guess who doesn’t often follow those rules: cyclists.\nHowever, public transportation itself is super busy and unbelievably expensive in The Netherlands. It costs more than 20 Euros to travel ~70 kilometers. That’s why a lot of people still prefer to have a car, and cars simply need infrastructure.\nSo I don’t really get your point. Cars, bicycles and public transportation all get a fair portion of the space that’s available.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist, i hate pedestrians. Here in Germany, there is bike lanes, one part for bikes and one for pedestrians on traffic lights... etc. But the pedestrians just ignore them, form \"walls\" of people blocking the bike lane, dont look while crossing the bike lane. Even cars repect us more than you.",
">\n\nThis I understand. Experienced the same in Denmark",
">\n\nClaaaaaarksoooooonnnnn",
">\n\nIdk about other places but here cyclists are constantly breaking the law and never getting ticketed for it. It makes no sense to me. I don’t think it’d make a huge difference but I do think some cyclists would think twice about disregarding the rules if those rules were actually enforced.",
">\n\nI get the sentiment. My feeling is the root cause is they don’t have their own infrastructure. Cars and peds do. So cyclists are always forced into a non ideal path. \nI’m aware they have rights to the road but cars and bikes really struggle to share an infrastructure clearly made for cars. \nSo if we invest in cycling infrastructure everyone would probably be happier.",
">\n\ndoubt it. In my city there is an asphalt bike path for miles that is like 8 feet wide. Smooth. No stop signs. Do they use it? nope they get their collective ass out on the street and I honestly don't have a clue why.\nIt defies logic. Safter, smooth, not cars/trunks, etc. Here they are out on the street just fiddle farting down a 45 mph road like they own it with a bike path 15 feet away with no one on it. The last guy I asked said \"It is my road as well you know\" that I ran up on while I was at a crossing while riding on the path myself. I just gave up trying to understand. Someone dies on that road every couple of months from bike or pedestrian strike with a vehicle. It was the whole reason they built the path....",
">\n\nWell in my experience there are 2 thing going on there.\na) Often bikers will avoid the path because peds often share or walk across those paths and their speed is closer to that of a car than a ped or \nb) If they are commuting...the path likely isn't going exactly where they need to.\nAs to your specific scenario I don't doubt there are bikers that are hard headed and stubborn. I know a few of those. But generally I do bikers using the infrastructure where we have built it.",
">\n\nThere's an accident here involving @ car running over a cyclist who crossed a red traffic light. And guess who take the blame?",
">\n\nLaughs in being dutch",
">\n\nIt is regrettable that a handful of asshole cyclists ruins everyone’s opinion of us. It really undermines the support needed to improve infrastructure for cycling. \nIf it is any help, when i ring my bell, I am doing so to avoid the alternatives of either yelling a warning or startling people. I normally exit the path and pass on the grass. I would say that most cyclist are the same. I don’t want you to get out of the way, I want you to know I am there. \nBut it only takes a couple assholes that think they own the path or the street. I have a cousin like this and it is difficult to convince him his is wrong and is putting himself and others in danger.",
">\n\nI think the a-holes are people that are only on a bike because it's the easiest thing for them, living where they do. You and those like you are on the bike because you love cycling.",
">\n\nI live in Portland, OR, and the cyclists here are so fucking rude and entitled.",
">\n\nI live in not-Portland OR and visited once. I biked down the road. Could not believe how nice everyone was to me. Probably because they could tell I’m an outsider.",
">\n\nI meant how they treat everyone else who isn't on a bike, tbh.",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists and it's for a simple reason. They think they can do whatever the hell they want. They switch between a pedestrian, a cyclist and a vehicle deciding on the fly whatever rules they feel like following with no accountability. \nOne minute they are skipping traffic, then they are deciding to cross at a crosswalk instead of following traffic. And the sidewalks are bike lanes if that's more convenient.",
">\n\nI just get annoyed because they will ride double wide on a tight street, forcing you to go 60mph in a 45, on the opposite side of traffic, risking a head on collision. And yea, you have to do that, because otherwise cars behind you will start driving aggressive as well as the fact that your expecting all the cars to go at a bikes speed on the road.",
">\n\nThat's because every country except for the Netherlands and Denmark have shit bicycle infrastructure.",
">\n\nI civilised countries we have cycling paths and cycling on the street is also possible as drivers aren't insane. So this seems rather like a problem of poor urban planning than cyclists in general.",
">\n\nWhere I live the cyclists just refuse to take the bikelane and either block the traffic because the rather use the street or they decide to use the pedestrian side of the sidewalk. The frickin bikelane is as big as the pedestrian one. There is no excuse not to use it and they still won't! One of them almost hit me if I hadn't dodge it. If the cyclist only drove a few inches to the left there would have been a bikelane and it wouldn't happened. Of course the person didn't apologize and just cursed at me.",
">\n\nBike gutters are awful and less safe than taking the lane. Assholes park in the bike lanes ALL THE TIME. Plus no one ever looks behind them when getting out pf their car so getting smacked by a door is a real danger. Drivers are entitled but it’s not their fault it’s the way we’ve built society to allow and expect them to be.\nETA: next time you’re driving around take a count how many people you see pulled over or parked in a bike gutter.",
">\n\nCompletely agree - I was ran over almost 3 times in Berlin. \nAnd every single time I checked before crossing - but they just suddenly spawned right in the way",
">\n\nDid you cross at a designated crosswalk? As a cyclist the amount of times people just randomly meander across an active street instead of going to the zebra/lollipop crossing, and then get angry at me when I have to swerve out the way/ brake is comical.",
">\n\nMan, y'all are sad people. \n\"Get off the road!\" Okay, now we are on the sidewalk. \n\"Get off the sidewalk!\" Back in the road again. \n\"They need to ring their bells so we know they're coming! Btw I hate it when they ring their bells so I know they're coming.\"",
">\n\nI hate cyclists like that. I don’t have a car so my bike is my main source of transportation and I don’t ride like that. So far, from what I’ve noticed in my area, I’m the only one that follows the damn rules in my city xD",
">\n\nNo matter where you are and who you are… driver or walker, scooter or flyer… we ALL hate cyclists.",
">\n\nI feel ya. The only thing I hate more than cyclists is electric scooters.",
">\n\nCompletely agree! A cycling license (similar to driving) should be required. Far too many cyclist who doesn’t know (and those who don’t just give a F) about traffic rules.",
">\n\nI completely agree! Cyclists have a lot of rights on the roads, and are very vocal about them, but think they can do whatever the fuck they want at roundabouts and pedestrian crossings.",
">\n\nIt just fascinates me how anyone can walk or drive through a city and genuinely think that bicycles are the problem. Look around you at every turn there are cars jamming the roads. Parked blocking things. Blocking pavements. Driving aggressively. Speeding. Failing to stop. Polluting the air. If they hit you, you are seriously injured or dead. This happens in the thousands. The city absolutely revolves around them.",
">\n\nYou are 100% right. Except I didn't say bicycles are the problem. I said i hate them. I said fuck cars too. I also said bicycles are one of the best alternative for trafic jam in cities.\nCities in Europe weren't made for cars nor bikes. So the problem is the fucking lazy greedy people who decide how to spend our tax money. The problem is people thinking they are all alone on the street. The problem is how stressed everybody is and how it become dangerous.\nNot because I hate how cyclists take revenge from drivers bullies to pedestrians makes me hate a transportation model itself.",
">\n\nIt just seems odd that people can really harp on about cyclists when they are such a trivial issue. Posts like this can get hundreds of replies. People tend to make excuses about cars.",
">\n\nYou just insulted a whole country.",
">\n\nThe Netherlands? It's ok",
">\n\nOk",
">\n\nI judge the actions of the individual not the mode of transport. I find it produces more accurate results.",
">\n\nApparently \"individuals alone are responsible for their own actions\" is the real unpopular opinion here.",
">\n\nIndeed 😀",
">\n\nAs a car driver I also hate cyclists. Saw one on a 45mph the other day despite there being a sidewalk AND a bikelane",
">\n\n45 mph isn't a speed for bike lane or sidewalk. Street is",
">\n\nas a cyclist, I hate pedestrians.\nMy city put in these nice protected bicycle lanes so bikes don't have to ride inches from cars, and boy don't those pedestrians just LOVE using the bike lane as a queuing up spot for the crosswalks. it's just so nice and convenient to get 5 more feet closer to your goal, isn't it? Those bicycles can stop and wait...and feel free to swear at them like THEY are the ones in the wrong.\nBicycles and pedestrians are natural enemies, that's never going to change. There can be only one.",
">\n\nLET'S END THIS NOW !!!!!",
">\n\nanyplace but Holy Ground.",
">\n\ndon't blame all bicyclists for the shitty ones.\nthat would be like saying every person who drives a car is an asshole. or every person who walks on the sidewalk is an asshole.\nsome people are good at getting around. other people are jerks. don't blame everyone for the actions of a small subset of people.",
">\n\nI mean, isn’t that the sentiment over that the popular sub r/fuckcars? The generalization is already being perpetuated from cyclists and “urbanists” in their war against cars.",
">\n\nNot really. That sub mostly hates the focus on cars when designing infrastructure, as well as the forced dependency on cars in our modern world. Not individual drivers.",
">\n\nSure about that? It’s mostly just a bitch-fest about driver errors to further their political agenda.",
">\n\nYea, I'm pretty sure.",
">\n\nReally weird way to get there if that’s the case. Alienating a large portion of the population (car drivers, car riders, people that depend on vehicles for the delivery of goods and services) is not how you get them on your side.",
">\n\nI don't think that's their goal in the first place. It's just a reddit sub.",
">\n\nEspecially when they have a stupid fucking bell and say \"on the left\" then proceed to be on the right side of the trail running into you",
">\n\nHahahha \"is he coming on the left or should i go on the lef...\" BANG!!",
">\n\nGF lives in a college town. It’s as if there’s some kinda fuckin’ death wish among the student cycling population",
">\n\nAs a [insert anyone, including cyclist], I hate cyclists.",
">\n\nPeople don't wanna hear it when it comes from automobilists because \"gngn cars are more dangerous and drivers are entitled\" but reality is cyclists are just the worst. Whether I'm on foot, driving a car, or riding a bicycle myself, cyclists are always always the ones being absolute public hazards. Heck, when I'm on my bike and stop at the stop sign on a cycle lane to let the cars go, they look at me as if I'm jesus or something. They even try to let me pass first because of how used they are to cyclists who just can't be bothered to respect the damn stop sign.",
">\n\nThe problem isn't the cyclists here, it's the lacking infrastructure.",
">\n\nWe shouldn't have to build infrastructure so people can partake in recreation. I find that comment extremely arrogant. Why on earth do cyclists deserve to have their recreation glorified and catered to??",
">\n\nRecreation? Ah yes, cycling is only for recreation.",
">\n\nWell, where I live that I'd the ONLY purpose. I'm 17 miles from any city municipality. Nobody is biking here to go to the grocery store or work.",
">\n\nNot everything is about you personally.",
">\n\nTo me, it is, and should be. My concern is around how cyclists inconvenience me while I'm trying to be a productive member of society. I feel like that's a fair critique.",
">\n\nYou are mad that cyclists inconvenience you yet you reject dedicated infrastructure as a solution. Do you think cyclists should be banned off the road completely?",
">\n\nThe real issue here is lacking cycling infrastructure.",
">\n\nDefinitely a major issue.\nBut part of the issue is definitely cyclists who prioritize their own speed over the safety and welfare of everyone around them. It's like they are all BMW drivers, deep down, and just don't want to yield to or slow down for anyone.",
">\n\nI'm sure there are, assholes exist in all vehicle types.",
">\n\nCyclists know thar neither the pavement nor the road are theirs because motorists and pedestrians like you are both screaming at them all the time. And I swear you'd be angrier if they didn't give a polite warning that they're coming toward you. \nCyclists who breeze through crossings instead of stopping are a minority, much like cyclists are a minority in general, and you can't judge an entire group that aren't adequately represented",
">\n\nFuck traveling in general",
">\n\nYa. Where are our transporters! \nSorry had to go full nerd.",
">\n\nI see posts like this constantly. It blows my mind people can just choose one thing that is so insignificant to scapegoat. \nThey assume people on bikes don’t also walk, drive, etc like we are essentially subhuman for doing exercise / running errands in this way because they are inconvenienced for a few seconds. You realize we are human like you , right?\nPeople tell us to ride bicycles on the sidewalk when it’s illegal while others say not too. It’s usually against the law.\nThey tell us to ride closer to the right side of the road , so we get hit by a car door and yelled at again. \nThey’re mad that we give a verbal signal that we’re coming up on the left even though that’s the law. \nNow that I’m in Colorado I’m getting yelled at for the Idaho stop, which is completely legal. We yield to stop signs and temporarily stop at red lights only if it’s clear. It’s all to REDUCE CAR TRAFFIC. \nKeep in mind we are riding bicycles which in its own right REDUCES CAR TRAFFIC. \n80% of car trips are within 3 miles from your house. Everyone that rides a bike keeps you from being stuck behind them in traffic for longer then the 20 seconds you’re currently inconvenienced. It’s also mean parking closer to the front door of a shop. \nSo far I’ve had family members die from hit and runs and drunk drivers, but somehow cyclists are the most dangerous thing on the road today?! It’s not adding up.\nWhat is this really about?",
">\n\nI'm sorry for your losses. I never said bikers are the most dangerous things on the road. Saying this would be stupid. The problem in my city is the lack of respect from cyclists to pedestrians in a general way. I'm not even talking about drivers against EVERYTHING ON THE STREET.",
">\n\nI go out of my way to be respectful to everybody, and I’ve had nothing but kindness and respect from other cyclists .\nYou wanna blame everybody on a bicycle for all your problems when it’s really just about a few people who disrespected you. \nCyclists are drivers, walkers, etc. do they just jump on a bicycle and instantly become disrespectful?\nStill doesn’t make any logical sense.",
">\n\nDude you just don't get it.. i understand biking is your life.. but come on.\nI use to bike 40km per day to work. \nI don't have problems with people jumping on bikes. I simply hate the ones that are disrespectful.\nIs it too hard to understand? Just me venting coz I feel like a lot of bikers think they are on top of the citizen pyramid? \nI'm not venting about the system here, nor about cars.. just about some (yes some) bikers.\nAnd please there is no need to beg for upvotes on fuckcars how old are you?",
">\n\nI bet your fat.",
">\n\nOf course I fart !",
">\n\nTo you yours and to mine mine; I hate car users and their ilk who are filled with wonton waste and hate for all else who dare travel near them. I stop at all lights, halt for all signs, use a mirror, lights, and hand signals, pull over for cars coming my way so long as there is any room, and use what little biking infrastructure is available to me.\nMy taxes are waste and paid in folly for they assuredly go in portion to your reckless use of a powerful machine and not to my own reckless use of a small self-propelled stick on two wheels to separate lanes and keep them maintained. No, no, I must settle for the gutter and cry glee for that and be ashamed to move to the sidewalk when it suddenly ends and continues a block later down the road. \nFuck your car, your roads, and your selfish desire to pave the world and create cities with 60% of their coverage dedicated to driving a car, parking a car, and separating the world into places for cars and otherwise. You who drive faster and faster, in bigger and bigger cars. I loath you as you loath mine.",
">\n\nI wouldn’t hate cyclists if they didn’t act like road laws don’t apply to em in the city where I live. I’ve seen cyclists not even stop at red lights even with an almost full intersection, and ride the wrong way down one ways.\nEdit: I do wish the city where I live had more bike lanes but yeah.",
">\n\nIf you're going to hate someone, maybe hate the people actually doing those things.\nIf I see someone on a bike rush through a short break on a red light in an otherwise busy intersection, I shake my head and think they are an idiot. I think this while waiting for the light to turn green on my bike.\nSimilarly, when a car illegally stops in a bike lane (which happens ALL THE TIME by the way), I don't turn around and blame the cars moving along legally in the adjacent lane.",
">\n\nPedestrian are the worst.\nWhen i started using bicicle I was very polite: brake, ring, ask for permission. And what the large amount of people do? Ignore u, watch u in the eyes and take a step in the fucking middle of the trail (many many times! for real!), shout at you just because u exist. So.... At some point is fuck you all, I'm coming go out of the way. That's it",
">\n\n\nI will never drive nor park on a bike lane, always look into the mirror to be careful of one of you monkeys. So why can't you be careful when us peasants are walking?\n\nThis is dumb. Obviously there are plenty of cyclists who are careful and courteous about your safety. That's part of what a bell or \"watch out!\" (generally \"On your left\") is doing for you. And just because you are courteous to them doesn't mean everyone is. Is every driver a douchebag just because some of them crowd cyclists when and where the cyclist has the right to the road? No.",
">\n\nThe difference here is that generally car drivers are going to be held accountable for bad driving. This is in the form of dash cams, ANPR and red light cameras which catch drivers doing bad things and they can receive a fine or points on their licence. Cyclists currently can't be held accountable if they jump red lights or hit a car or pedestrian as there isn't anything that helps identify them. This is a big issue in cities. I live and work in London and see many cyclists jumping red lights and weaving around pedestrians crossing. Cars can't do this as most traffic lights have red light cameras that would catch this.\nDrivers as a collective (including me) are in no way perfect or even held to account 100% of the time, but I believe we need a system for cyclists to be held accountable too",
">\n\nYour way of thinking, while perfectly rational and natural, is outdated. Traffic law enforcement, like any other law enforcement, is less about the enforcement, and more about the prevention. Where I live, speed and red light cameras are clearly marked ahead so that the people who'd normally break the law follow it instead, making punishment unnecessary. \nSame could be done with cyclists. Sure, you could make every cyclist install a license plate, require a \"cycling license\", or install expensive cameras with facial identification software, but how about just make it so cyclists aren't incentivised to break the law in the first place? \nMake more useful cycling infrastructure, and more cyclists will use it. Make that infrastructure intersect with foot and motor traffic more safely and less often, and less collisions will happen.",
">\n\nI completely understand your point. However, a lot of money has gone into my local area for cycling infrastructure that most cyclists are using, but many are still choosing to break the rules as the rules are inconvenient. The infrastructure is not enough, there needs to be an incentive NOT to break the rules.\nIf you take a look at Chiswick High Road in London, England. They have created segregated cycle lanes from the traffic. These cycle lanes have their own lights and crossings to keep them safe from cars. However many cyclists just ignore the lights and just keep going into pedestrians. There is no punishment for them doing this as they can't be tracked. Personally I think every cyclist should have to register their bike (make it free to help encourage this) and then a new form of ANPR used to also catch cyclists in the act",
">\n\nPersonally I'd have no problem registering my bike for free, especially if I could use that same registration if it gets stolen, but registering something as mechanically simple and cheap as a bicycle is, in my opinion difficult if not impossible to do without making the bike mechanically complex and expensive, at which point most people would just switch to scooters.\nI don't live in London, but from what I've heard, by far the biggest threat in the city is still motorized traffic, namely cars and lorries, and so until that problem is no longer a problem, I wouldn't really do anything special about bikes. Maybe put some undercover bike cops near the most dangerous bike path/lane intersections to catch a few offenders and make an example out of them, but that's about it.",
">\n\nMost cars I’ve driven came equipped with brakes and a steering wheel. I don’t see the problem",
">\n\nA common take and a stupid one.\nThere are good and bad drivers, pedestrians, and cyclists. Hating any of them as a group because some of them do bad things is just dumb.",
">\n\nIf you followed the laws and stayed out of the bike lane as a pedestrian there would be no problem.",
">\n\nIf bicyclists followed the laws and stopped ignoring street signs/traffic lights there would be no problem.",
">\n\nDon’t see how this address the problem with pedestrians in bike lanes.",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Drivers pedestrians other cyclists. They're a scourge.",
">\n\nEvery word of this is pure wisdom.",
">\n\nAs a car driver, I too hate cyclists.\nI don't care who has 'right of way'. I'm in a car, you're not. If we collide, regardless of fault, you're the one that dies.\nDo you really want to die on the hill that says \"i can bike on the rode b/c it's legal\"?\nI might be in jail, but you're still dead.\nBikes don't belong on public roads. Unless there's a bike lane - aka, a pathway designed specifically for bikers.\nIt's FAR SAFER to bike on the sidewalk.",
">\n\nBe careful you’ll anger r/fuckcars",
">\n\nI recently got a bike in Japan and there isn't any room on the street to ride my bike. Most people are fine when I'm on the sidewalk, however, the worst ones are groups of 2 or more who try and take up as much space as possible allowing nobody to pass. Same with the people who constantly switch between the left and right side of the sidewalk. It's really annoying to see how little spacial awareness they have.",
">\n\nCyclists on the road don’t have to pass the same test as vehicles on the road, which is why they are so bad. If there was a test in order to cycle on the road then i think it would be alot better",
">\n\nWhy do you hate all cyclists when only some of them are rude/dangerous?",
">\n\nCope hehe",
">\n\nIt's the powered vehicles that kill most pedestrians.\nBut, sure, cyclists blahblah...",
">\n\nAs an occasional cyclist, I don't like you either.",
">\n\nI biked everywhere.....when I was a child. I'm an adult now and have an automobile. They are pretty neat.",
">\n\nWhen I used to have to walk to work I’d walk on the sidewalk and listen to music and one time this guy zipped right by me yelling almost knocking me over and flipped me off?? They act like they don’t have breaks lmao",
">\n\nholy smokes! glad you're ok",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Even cyclists.",
">\n\nAnd here i thought why the f pediatrician hate cyclists",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Even other cyclists.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist this thread is hilarious",
">\n\nAnyone got recommendations for how to be a nice, considerate cyclist besides being careful and non-entitled? I plan on starting when it gets warm outside.",
">\n\nNot unpopular",
">\n\nWhen I drive to work, I obey most of the rules. I just can't drive on some roads. That would either kill me at some point or I'd slow down a whole 60 km/h lane that's packed with traffic. When riding on the sidewalk, I always stop or get off my bike if it gets too crowded or the sidewalk narrows. But when no one is around I just keep driving normally, just slower than usual. I try to stay alert at all times and let everyone pass because I know I'm wrong here.\nAt one point there is a one-way street I'm not allowed to drive on, but as my alternatives are the same 60km/h road (but now also with rails) or a crowded sidewalk, I prefer the one-way street with maybe 4 cars per hour that I can easily avoid. After that there is finally a bike path until I get to work. There would be a legal route, but it would take twice, if not triple, the time.\nI also hate reckless cyclists. They have already endangered me and are often unfriendly assholes. I just don't have a death wish and don't want to drive a route in an hour if 20 minutes are possible in a safe way (If the brain gets used).",
">\n\nCyclists don’t care because unless they get injured there are no real consequences for their actions.\nI think that any vehicle, with or without any type of motor, should require a license to operate on a public roadway. Road legal bikes need to be held to quality standards, like cars, and should also be registered. If you wish to ride one on a public roadway it should have a number plate on it. You should have to pass a rider’s ed course proving that you know the rules of the road. There should be a test proving that you can control the vehicle and operate it safely, same as a car or motorcycle.",
">\n\nYeah I’ve nearly been run over from behind by cyclists on sidewalks too many times",
">\n\nIdk maybe my town is weird like everwhere on the internet and even in statistics you hear stuff like that but then I haven't really seen any cyclists run red lights ever and as someone who maybe not often but sometimes cycles, the last thing I'd do as a cyclist is run a red light like I don't wanna die?"
] |
>
I don’t mind normal, law-abiding cyclists at all. I just despise the ones that think they can choose whether to act like a car or pedestrian whenever they feel like it. Or worse, they don’t know the actual laws but think they are special just because they are riding a bike.
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[
"I road cycled for years, I always followed the street rules. Always. Red light means red light. \nI have so many cycling friends who get into accidents and other conflicts with drivers, and yet they think it’s stupid to stop at a red light. They just don’t connect these two things",
">\n\nMost bikers I encounter are complete idiots. Like I'd be driving normally and out of nowhere comes a biker on a crosswalk in full speed. Now, I appreciate bikers who actually stop and make eye contact with me as I'm driving towards the crosswalk but man, it's either that or the biker almost dies because I have no time to brake.\nAnd what's up with all the bikers going like 5 kmh IN THE MIDDLE of a road when there's a dedicated sidewalk for bikers right next to them? Drives me insane.",
">\n\nIt seems like most bikers because of observation bias.\nIf you follow the rules as you should, you’re unmemorable.\nAs for the sidewalks - its actually less safe on the sidewalk.",
">\n\nInteresting. Dangerous situations are more valuable to remember, and I remember tons of irresponsible bikers. It is in fact observation bias. But I'm always happy to see those who pay close attention to traffic, and I do remeber some of them aswell.",
">\n\nWell the same goes for driving. How many cars do you remember when they haven’t done anything? But you tend to remember the ones who do something dumb",
">\n\nYeah it can be applied to anything really.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist in one of the most bike-dense cities in the world, I hate cyclists too. If I could avoid getting myself hurt, I’d be ramming at least ten of them a day just to teach a lesson about ignoring rules and common sense.",
">\n\nAmsterdam? Copenhagen?",
">\n\nCopenhagen. It’s a wonderful bike city but the people are incredibly self-centered.",
">\n\nI had high expectations from cyclists when I first visited the city, after all it is heralded as a cycling paradise and, well, let’s say it looked a lot more like the rest of the world and mainly because of the personal behavior of cyclists.\nMy local friend justified it, stating that it’s because danish are more temperamental than all other Scandinavians: an explanation that I really didn’t know what to do with…",
">\n\nIf “temperamental” means “a bunch of egotistical [insert unflattering body part]”, he’s right.",
">\n\nYou make it sound like a war zone. I live in Copenhagen and most of the time biking around the city is very pleasant. Except for the food delivery scooters, they can 🤬 off.",
">\n\nI guess it depends on how often and where you’re going. If you have places to be each and every day and want to get there effectively, people ignoring general rules and courtesies of the road are a pain. If you’re one of the types listening to podcasts with a latte in one hand and a phone in the other just trudging along, it’s probably fine.",
">\n\nSame! I love walking. Where I live on popular trails, there are bike lanes, but the cyclists will just ride wherever they. They don’t care and won’t let you know they’re coming. They’ll get pissy if you don’t just automatically know they’re coming up from behind you. If you do much as step foot in the bike lane, they get mad, but have no problems riding side by side outside the bike lane.",
">\n\nSame here! So much for my pleasant walk on the beautiful Trail. They sneak up and when they're almost on top of me, a loud voice yells \"On your left!\" They startle the shit out of me and cause me to jump sky high! 😡",
">\n\nIt’s literally the law to say that. This thread is all about hating them no matter if they follow the law or not.",
">\n\nIs it possible to do that without sneaking up on them and startling the shit out of them by yelling real loud? And then cutting is close to them as you possibly can without hitting them?",
">\n\nHello. \nMy useless comment to this post is here :D\nSo, i work in the accidents department of a big insurance company. My country is very strickt about the road rules, meaning:\nOur company estimates (is this the right word?) that around 82% of accidents involving cyclists, are to blame on the cyclist. Since there are expecific places on the road for you to ride your bike, even if it's not a bike lane.\nI remember a case where 3 dudes were just cycling, outside of town and they were literally on the middle of the road. the place where they were is full of curves and has very little visibility, so they were riding side by side, middle of the road, comes a car, hits not one, but the 3 of them because they scared the person and she just swerved the car.\nThey sued her and us (insurance) 2 times. Lost both and had to pay for all damage done on the car by their own bodys",
">\n\nThis sounds like something that happened near by my home town, are you in Ontario?",
">\n\nno XD portugal",
">\n\nGod its so much worse that it's happened in multiple places.\nIn ours I think the driver killed one of the cyclists, then sued the family for emotional damage",
">\n\nMy biggest gripe about cyclists is that there is always some danger when you encounter them on the road, either as a pedestrian or motorist. Now, part of it isn’t their fault. At least here in the US, not much of the infrastructure is made for bicycles. But cyclists are constantly breaking the rules of the road (or sidewalk) to get where they’re going faster. Blowing red lights, leaving the bike lane to use the sidewalk, splitting lanes. I always clench a little when I approach one, wondering if this is the day I can’t get out of the way.",
">\n\nWe have that same problem, but then a million times worse, because I live in The Netherlands. You probably know about our proud cycling culture (the Amsterdam stereotype). And yes, cyclists here are just as bad as the ones you describe, but there’s a lot more of them here. And oh yeah, traffic laws are almost always in their favor.",
">\n\nI found driving in the towns of the Netherlands so hard. Not just because I was on the wrong side of the road 😉 but because I just wasn’t used to sooo many cyclists coming from all directions, always faster than me and passing on both sides. Even as I was signalling to leave a roundabout at one point about three cyclists rode past on the inside. I really struggled to keep up with them all, which of course means I drove slower and thus even more bikes passed me!",
">\n\nYes that is of course very difficult, however as a Dutchman I’m used to cyclists, so of course we struggle a lot less. But that doesn’t take away from the fact that cyclists do cause a lot of issues because of their careless behavior, and because as drivers we have to accommodate them. That one sided ‘deal’ that we have makes it very difficult to deal with them.\nAll in all I’m happy we have so many cyclists as it’s good for the environment. But the utopian mindset of cyclists being a gift to the world is just stupid. Especially when you consider that mostly Americans who drive on wide open roads with barely any cyclists around are the ones praising cyclists in my country all the time. Also, cyclists annoy the hell out of pedestrians as well, so it’s not just about motorists.",
">\n\nCyclists treat red lights like stop signs and stop signs like yield signs (at best). They’re not allowed on sidewalks but do it anyway. Fuckin hate cyclists.",
">\n\nEverything you said is completely legal in Denver and sidewalks are illegal , but drivers constantly scream at cyclists to ride there",
">\n\nCyclist can roll stop signs and run red lights in Denver? What the fuck?",
">\n\nI’d have no problem if cyclist had respect for other road users. where I live there are cycle lanes, but most cyclists are on the road or pavements, they ignore red lights etc. \nIf you want to cycle please make it’s safe for yourself and others around you.",
">\n\nExactly my thoughts",
">\n\nHonestly, selfish assholes exist everywhere but a selfish asshole on a bicycle does a lot less damage than a selfish asshole in a car. \nEDIT: OP's also downvoting everyone who disagrees with him, just fyi.",
">\n\nAs a pedestrian, I hate everyone who's not a pedestrian... And some pedestrians too.",
">\n\nThere's a reason so many cyclists die each year, they all seem to pick and choose which laws they want to follow. Its always safer to assume they'll do whatever they want and everyone else needs to adapt to them.",
">\n\nAs a driver downtown, I don't worry at all about pedestrians at intersections, I can turn my head and assume they will be maybe five feet closer to my car when I look back, (and I trust they won't sprint towards me when I look away, at their own peril), but bikes, they ride so fast, that in the short time I turn my head to check for oncoming traffic, a bike could materialize right beside / infront me, and I risk hitting them or them hitting the side of my car. And that's even in their designated bike lane, that I have to pass through to clear the intersection. And if I drive into a ped at three miles per hour, they will just hit my hood with their fist and call me a stupid motherfucker, or whatever makes them feel justice was served, but if I bump the bike, it will be a big crash, the bicyclist will be all curled up in a ball on the ground, I'll be the bad guy in the eyes of the law and anyone nearby, and I'll probably be late as fuck to wherever it is I'm trying to go to.",
">\n\nI skateboard so I guess I'm good",
">\n\nJust don’t inconvenience narcissistic car drivers by a few seconds.",
">\n\nI think everyone hates cyclists. Cyclists included.",
">\n\nAs a driver, I hate you both",
">\n\nPedestrians are literally the worst. Anyone who has to walk more than 20 feet a day and not to their car are complete losers, and should be jailed on site.",
">\n\nOK, I think that's a bit extreme. But hey, if you're running for public office I'll vote for you. \nI do have to wonder anytime I see someone that I know has the mental faculties to drive who is walking. Usually assume too many DUI's.",
">\n\nr/fuckcars ripping out their hair rn",
">\n\nNot unpopular.\n Everyone hates cyclists.",
">\n\nI casually cycle in the summer. If I'm on a trail, I'll slow down and ring my bell if I see pedestrians, or stop and dismount if there's a lot of people or they don't notice me. Especially on the narrow trails in this woodlot I sometimes go to. \nThe problem is a lot of cyclists, especially in North America, but perhaps other places, just aren't respectful of others. They demand car drivers \"share the road\", but then ride in huge packs, lane split, don't signal turns, run stop signs and red lights, weave in and out of traffic, boot up busy sidewalks at 15-20mph, refuse to use provided bike lanes, etc. There's like a gross sense of entitlement in the cycling community. Dude, you're still a vehicle. There's rules that apply to you, just like there are for cars and motorcycles. Big problem is difficulty/lack of enforcement. Cops have to catch them in the act. Even then they're slippery devils since they're usually more mobile than a cruiser or beat cop on foot. This is why I support plating bikes to make them easily identifiable.",
">\n\n\nThere's like a gross sense of entitlement in the cycling community. Dude, you're still a vehicle. There's rules that apply to you, just like there are for cars and motorcycles.\n\nThat is the problem right there. They want to be treated equal to car owners, yet they do not abide by traffic rules, hence all the accidents.",
">\n\nAs a driver, I concur.",
">\n\nI hate bikers on trails. They're supposed to stop and let hikers by but they never do. They go by so freakin' fast too. It's like come on now!",
">\n\nAs a mostly former cyclist, I often hated cyclists too. Mostly, because so many cyclist are just competitive asshats that suck the pleasure out of their own bike ride by making everything about speed. Like, heaven forbid they have to slow and yield to anyone.\nOnce, I was riding my bicycle with my young daughter on a bike path in the city. A couple cyclist came up and got all pissy at us, saying we need to be out of the cycle lane because we were going too slow and my 8 year old kid wasn't keeping to a narrow lane. It was so hostile - my kid started crying.\nBut that is just so typical, all the time. I've gotten yelled out a few times when I made a full, foot down stop at a redlight because the cyclist behind me was expecting me to either run the redlight or at least go into the crosswalk and dance around (like they do) until it went green. I remember nearly getting run over by cyclists all the time, and yelled at if I was going too slow.\nThat being said, we need to do 100,000 x more in the US towards making bike paths, protected bike lanes, etc., because cyling is a truly great way to get around and I miss it. I just don't miss the self-centered asshats that dominate the cycling community.",
">\n\nThis!",
">\n\nI’ve nothing against cyclists as a group. I prefer to hate all people who do stupid things whether they’re in cars, on bikes or walking. Went to pick my daughter up tonight and counted six cyclists in the dark wearing all black with no lights at all plus one with a light so weak I didn’t see it until I was nearly past him. Tonight it was dumb cyclists, but tomorrow it might be idiots in cars. Hate the idiots not the method of transportation.",
">\n\nTrue !",
">\n\nOMG YES !! I completely agree. Every time i tried to explain this to a friend, they would always look at me like I am crazy for thinking such a thing. But as I walk for 45 minutes every days, it became a reality you can't ignore... I can't count how many times I nearly got hit by a cyclist, it happens every other week. I am starting to think that cyclists should have to go through a \"course\" to learn the basics of using the streets x)\n(Sorry for mistakes, not native here 'x) )",
">\n\nThis is my story lol..",
">\n\nYes, and it also is my personal experience, which is why I posted this..?",
">\n\nYes I totally agree. Just saying \"that's my life\" :) happening in Brussels tho",
">\n\nMy bad x) welp France here, it amazes me in a really bad way how this seems to be such a common phenomenon literaly EVERYWHERE",
">\n\nJ'ai roulé en vélo à Paris et laisse tomber l'enfer que c'était. J'avais l'impression d'avancer avec des oies qui insultaient tout le monde. BAa bAAA BAaaAa !!! \nLe problème c'est que plus les gens sont stressés (même les piétons... Genre dans le metro) plus ils se haïssent et ce matin j'avais la haine sur les vélos.. en vrai j'ai la haine sur tous les citadins haha",
">\n\nas a cyclist I hate everyone",
">\n\nSame, I see posts like this where people tell us to ride on the sidewalk when it’s illegal. \nThey assume we don’t walk anywhere, drive, etc like we are essentially subhuman for doing exercise.\nThey tell us to ride closer to the right side of the road so we get hit by a car door. \nThey’re mad that we give a verbal signal that we’re coming up on the left even though that’s the law. \nnow that I’m in Colorado I’m getting yelled at for the Idaho stop, which is completely legal. We yield to stop signs and temporarily stop at red light only till it’s clear. It’s all to REDUCE CAR TRAFFIC.\nSo far I’ve had family members die from hit and runs and drunk drivers, but somehow cyclists are the most dangerous thing on the road today.\nWhat is this really about?",
">\n\nI loathe cyclists. Selfish, entitled lycra lunatics.",
">\n\nBe honest, do you realize that it's possible to ride a bicycle and not be selfish, or entitled, or a lunatic, or not wear lycra?",
">\n\nThis thread is such a circlejerk, it's ridiculous.",
">\n\nThat's what I'm here for",
">\n\nIt's because cycling isn't regulated like motor vehicles are but they still get on the roads unlike pedestrians. So they don't have knowledge on the rules of the road that drivers have.\nThere's also some sort of hypocrisy they have where they believe drivers should give way to them because bikes are more vulnerable than cars while expecting pedestrians to give way to them because they're moving faster.",
">\n\n\nSo they don't have knowledge on the rules of the road\n\nPlenty do. Many cyclists also are automobilists. They just feel like they're exempted from respecting trafic rules because it's tiring to stop and go on a bike and they're slower an lighter than cars.",
">\n\nSure you got hit by a truck, but at least you managed to save yourself a little time and avoid waiting for a few seconds. Is what I'd say if they didn't then end up in the hospital",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists, as it should be.",
">\n\nCyclists shouldn’t be on sidewalks",
">\n\nI also cringe a lot when I see the international Reddit community constantly praise us Dutch people for our biking culture. People have no idea how many traffic accidents we get that could have been avoided if we didn’t have cyclists EVERYWHERE who are barely aware of the traffic rules that also apply to them.\nPeople have no idea about how cyclists are almost always right according to our traffic laws, which makes them much more reckless. They cause millions of dollars of damage to cars (and pedestrians) each year, and barely ever face consequences for their irresponsible and reckless behavior in traffic.\nPeople don’t see how cyclists often block traffic because they like to cycle next to each other in pairs, and if you honk they get angry and sometimes even aggressive and try to break your side mirror if they feel like it.\nMany intersections have bicycle lanes that you need to check when making a turn when driving, even though the intersection is already super busy with lots of cars. And guess what, cyclists still ride around fast and recklessly and making sure you don’t hit another car, cyclist AND pedestrian is all the job of one single driver.\nSo all in all, people from countries where driving is a relatively easy and chill thing to do, praise cycling culture in other countries. Try to drive here in busy traffic with thousands of cars AND (RECKLESS) CYCLISTS on the road and then tell me what it’s like.",
">\n\nIt would be much easier to sympathize with cars drivers if they did not need like 60% of the entire transit space leaving cyclists and pedestrians very little.\n\neven though the intersection is already super busy with lots of cars\n\nOfc, because cars are so large and need so much space.",
">\n\nI get that, but why is that my fault? I don’t do the city planning. Besides, cars are much larger than bicycles, so doesn’t it make sense there’s more space needed for cars than for bicycles?\nBut even then, if you don’t want to have any sympathy for motorists, because city planners give them more space than others, that’s just weird. It’s not the motorist’s fault.",
">\n\n\ndoesn’t it make sense there’s more space needed for cars than for bicycles?\n\nWhy a valuable and scarce resource such as the public space in cities should be used predominantly to benefit car users while barring everyone else? \nI just find it much harder to sympathize with the privileged group.",
">\n\nBecause people need to be able to go from A to B?",
">\n\nSo do pedestrians/public transport users/cyclists. But they don't require so much space per person.",
">\n\nWell in The Netherlands public transportation takes up an enormous amount of space and cyclists have their own dedicated lanes almost everywhere. Also motorists have to give public transportation space as we usually have to stop for trams and buses to pass, according to traffic rules. Guess who doesn’t often follow those rules: cyclists.\nHowever, public transportation itself is super busy and unbelievably expensive in The Netherlands. It costs more than 20 Euros to travel ~70 kilometers. That’s why a lot of people still prefer to have a car, and cars simply need infrastructure.\nSo I don’t really get your point. Cars, bicycles and public transportation all get a fair portion of the space that’s available.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist, i hate pedestrians. Here in Germany, there is bike lanes, one part for bikes and one for pedestrians on traffic lights... etc. But the pedestrians just ignore them, form \"walls\" of people blocking the bike lane, dont look while crossing the bike lane. Even cars repect us more than you.",
">\n\nThis I understand. Experienced the same in Denmark",
">\n\nClaaaaaarksoooooonnnnn",
">\n\nIdk about other places but here cyclists are constantly breaking the law and never getting ticketed for it. It makes no sense to me. I don’t think it’d make a huge difference but I do think some cyclists would think twice about disregarding the rules if those rules were actually enforced.",
">\n\nI get the sentiment. My feeling is the root cause is they don’t have their own infrastructure. Cars and peds do. So cyclists are always forced into a non ideal path. \nI’m aware they have rights to the road but cars and bikes really struggle to share an infrastructure clearly made for cars. \nSo if we invest in cycling infrastructure everyone would probably be happier.",
">\n\ndoubt it. In my city there is an asphalt bike path for miles that is like 8 feet wide. Smooth. No stop signs. Do they use it? nope they get their collective ass out on the street and I honestly don't have a clue why.\nIt defies logic. Safter, smooth, not cars/trunks, etc. Here they are out on the street just fiddle farting down a 45 mph road like they own it with a bike path 15 feet away with no one on it. The last guy I asked said \"It is my road as well you know\" that I ran up on while I was at a crossing while riding on the path myself. I just gave up trying to understand. Someone dies on that road every couple of months from bike or pedestrian strike with a vehicle. It was the whole reason they built the path....",
">\n\nWell in my experience there are 2 thing going on there.\na) Often bikers will avoid the path because peds often share or walk across those paths and their speed is closer to that of a car than a ped or \nb) If they are commuting...the path likely isn't going exactly where they need to.\nAs to your specific scenario I don't doubt there are bikers that are hard headed and stubborn. I know a few of those. But generally I do bikers using the infrastructure where we have built it.",
">\n\nThere's an accident here involving @ car running over a cyclist who crossed a red traffic light. And guess who take the blame?",
">\n\nLaughs in being dutch",
">\n\nIt is regrettable that a handful of asshole cyclists ruins everyone’s opinion of us. It really undermines the support needed to improve infrastructure for cycling. \nIf it is any help, when i ring my bell, I am doing so to avoid the alternatives of either yelling a warning or startling people. I normally exit the path and pass on the grass. I would say that most cyclist are the same. I don’t want you to get out of the way, I want you to know I am there. \nBut it only takes a couple assholes that think they own the path or the street. I have a cousin like this and it is difficult to convince him his is wrong and is putting himself and others in danger.",
">\n\nI think the a-holes are people that are only on a bike because it's the easiest thing for them, living where they do. You and those like you are on the bike because you love cycling.",
">\n\nI live in Portland, OR, and the cyclists here are so fucking rude and entitled.",
">\n\nI live in not-Portland OR and visited once. I biked down the road. Could not believe how nice everyone was to me. Probably because they could tell I’m an outsider.",
">\n\nI meant how they treat everyone else who isn't on a bike, tbh.",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists and it's for a simple reason. They think they can do whatever the hell they want. They switch between a pedestrian, a cyclist and a vehicle deciding on the fly whatever rules they feel like following with no accountability. \nOne minute they are skipping traffic, then they are deciding to cross at a crosswalk instead of following traffic. And the sidewalks are bike lanes if that's more convenient.",
">\n\nI just get annoyed because they will ride double wide on a tight street, forcing you to go 60mph in a 45, on the opposite side of traffic, risking a head on collision. And yea, you have to do that, because otherwise cars behind you will start driving aggressive as well as the fact that your expecting all the cars to go at a bikes speed on the road.",
">\n\nThat's because every country except for the Netherlands and Denmark have shit bicycle infrastructure.",
">\n\nI civilised countries we have cycling paths and cycling on the street is also possible as drivers aren't insane. So this seems rather like a problem of poor urban planning than cyclists in general.",
">\n\nWhere I live the cyclists just refuse to take the bikelane and either block the traffic because the rather use the street or they decide to use the pedestrian side of the sidewalk. The frickin bikelane is as big as the pedestrian one. There is no excuse not to use it and they still won't! One of them almost hit me if I hadn't dodge it. If the cyclist only drove a few inches to the left there would have been a bikelane and it wouldn't happened. Of course the person didn't apologize and just cursed at me.",
">\n\nBike gutters are awful and less safe than taking the lane. Assholes park in the bike lanes ALL THE TIME. Plus no one ever looks behind them when getting out pf their car so getting smacked by a door is a real danger. Drivers are entitled but it’s not their fault it’s the way we’ve built society to allow and expect them to be.\nETA: next time you’re driving around take a count how many people you see pulled over or parked in a bike gutter.",
">\n\nCompletely agree - I was ran over almost 3 times in Berlin. \nAnd every single time I checked before crossing - but they just suddenly spawned right in the way",
">\n\nDid you cross at a designated crosswalk? As a cyclist the amount of times people just randomly meander across an active street instead of going to the zebra/lollipop crossing, and then get angry at me when I have to swerve out the way/ brake is comical.",
">\n\nMan, y'all are sad people. \n\"Get off the road!\" Okay, now we are on the sidewalk. \n\"Get off the sidewalk!\" Back in the road again. \n\"They need to ring their bells so we know they're coming! Btw I hate it when they ring their bells so I know they're coming.\"",
">\n\nI hate cyclists like that. I don’t have a car so my bike is my main source of transportation and I don’t ride like that. So far, from what I’ve noticed in my area, I’m the only one that follows the damn rules in my city xD",
">\n\nNo matter where you are and who you are… driver or walker, scooter or flyer… we ALL hate cyclists.",
">\n\nI feel ya. The only thing I hate more than cyclists is electric scooters.",
">\n\nCompletely agree! A cycling license (similar to driving) should be required. Far too many cyclist who doesn’t know (and those who don’t just give a F) about traffic rules.",
">\n\nI completely agree! Cyclists have a lot of rights on the roads, and are very vocal about them, but think they can do whatever the fuck they want at roundabouts and pedestrian crossings.",
">\n\nIt just fascinates me how anyone can walk or drive through a city and genuinely think that bicycles are the problem. Look around you at every turn there are cars jamming the roads. Parked blocking things. Blocking pavements. Driving aggressively. Speeding. Failing to stop. Polluting the air. If they hit you, you are seriously injured or dead. This happens in the thousands. The city absolutely revolves around them.",
">\n\nYou are 100% right. Except I didn't say bicycles are the problem. I said i hate them. I said fuck cars too. I also said bicycles are one of the best alternative for trafic jam in cities.\nCities in Europe weren't made for cars nor bikes. So the problem is the fucking lazy greedy people who decide how to spend our tax money. The problem is people thinking they are all alone on the street. The problem is how stressed everybody is and how it become dangerous.\nNot because I hate how cyclists take revenge from drivers bullies to pedestrians makes me hate a transportation model itself.",
">\n\nIt just seems odd that people can really harp on about cyclists when they are such a trivial issue. Posts like this can get hundreds of replies. People tend to make excuses about cars.",
">\n\nYou just insulted a whole country.",
">\n\nThe Netherlands? It's ok",
">\n\nOk",
">\n\nI judge the actions of the individual not the mode of transport. I find it produces more accurate results.",
">\n\nApparently \"individuals alone are responsible for their own actions\" is the real unpopular opinion here.",
">\n\nIndeed 😀",
">\n\nAs a car driver I also hate cyclists. Saw one on a 45mph the other day despite there being a sidewalk AND a bikelane",
">\n\n45 mph isn't a speed for bike lane or sidewalk. Street is",
">\n\nas a cyclist, I hate pedestrians.\nMy city put in these nice protected bicycle lanes so bikes don't have to ride inches from cars, and boy don't those pedestrians just LOVE using the bike lane as a queuing up spot for the crosswalks. it's just so nice and convenient to get 5 more feet closer to your goal, isn't it? Those bicycles can stop and wait...and feel free to swear at them like THEY are the ones in the wrong.\nBicycles and pedestrians are natural enemies, that's never going to change. There can be only one.",
">\n\nLET'S END THIS NOW !!!!!",
">\n\nanyplace but Holy Ground.",
">\n\ndon't blame all bicyclists for the shitty ones.\nthat would be like saying every person who drives a car is an asshole. or every person who walks on the sidewalk is an asshole.\nsome people are good at getting around. other people are jerks. don't blame everyone for the actions of a small subset of people.",
">\n\nI mean, isn’t that the sentiment over that the popular sub r/fuckcars? The generalization is already being perpetuated from cyclists and “urbanists” in their war against cars.",
">\n\nNot really. That sub mostly hates the focus on cars when designing infrastructure, as well as the forced dependency on cars in our modern world. Not individual drivers.",
">\n\nSure about that? It’s mostly just a bitch-fest about driver errors to further their political agenda.",
">\n\nYea, I'm pretty sure.",
">\n\nReally weird way to get there if that’s the case. Alienating a large portion of the population (car drivers, car riders, people that depend on vehicles for the delivery of goods and services) is not how you get them on your side.",
">\n\nI don't think that's their goal in the first place. It's just a reddit sub.",
">\n\nEspecially when they have a stupid fucking bell and say \"on the left\" then proceed to be on the right side of the trail running into you",
">\n\nHahahha \"is he coming on the left or should i go on the lef...\" BANG!!",
">\n\nGF lives in a college town. It’s as if there’s some kinda fuckin’ death wish among the student cycling population",
">\n\nAs a [insert anyone, including cyclist], I hate cyclists.",
">\n\nPeople don't wanna hear it when it comes from automobilists because \"gngn cars are more dangerous and drivers are entitled\" but reality is cyclists are just the worst. Whether I'm on foot, driving a car, or riding a bicycle myself, cyclists are always always the ones being absolute public hazards. Heck, when I'm on my bike and stop at the stop sign on a cycle lane to let the cars go, they look at me as if I'm jesus or something. They even try to let me pass first because of how used they are to cyclists who just can't be bothered to respect the damn stop sign.",
">\n\nThe problem isn't the cyclists here, it's the lacking infrastructure.",
">\n\nWe shouldn't have to build infrastructure so people can partake in recreation. I find that comment extremely arrogant. Why on earth do cyclists deserve to have their recreation glorified and catered to??",
">\n\nRecreation? Ah yes, cycling is only for recreation.",
">\n\nWell, where I live that I'd the ONLY purpose. I'm 17 miles from any city municipality. Nobody is biking here to go to the grocery store or work.",
">\n\nNot everything is about you personally.",
">\n\nTo me, it is, and should be. My concern is around how cyclists inconvenience me while I'm trying to be a productive member of society. I feel like that's a fair critique.",
">\n\nYou are mad that cyclists inconvenience you yet you reject dedicated infrastructure as a solution. Do you think cyclists should be banned off the road completely?",
">\n\nThe real issue here is lacking cycling infrastructure.",
">\n\nDefinitely a major issue.\nBut part of the issue is definitely cyclists who prioritize their own speed over the safety and welfare of everyone around them. It's like they are all BMW drivers, deep down, and just don't want to yield to or slow down for anyone.",
">\n\nI'm sure there are, assholes exist in all vehicle types.",
">\n\nCyclists know thar neither the pavement nor the road are theirs because motorists and pedestrians like you are both screaming at them all the time. And I swear you'd be angrier if they didn't give a polite warning that they're coming toward you. \nCyclists who breeze through crossings instead of stopping are a minority, much like cyclists are a minority in general, and you can't judge an entire group that aren't adequately represented",
">\n\nFuck traveling in general",
">\n\nYa. Where are our transporters! \nSorry had to go full nerd.",
">\n\nI see posts like this constantly. It blows my mind people can just choose one thing that is so insignificant to scapegoat. \nThey assume people on bikes don’t also walk, drive, etc like we are essentially subhuman for doing exercise / running errands in this way because they are inconvenienced for a few seconds. You realize we are human like you , right?\nPeople tell us to ride bicycles on the sidewalk when it’s illegal while others say not too. It’s usually against the law.\nThey tell us to ride closer to the right side of the road , so we get hit by a car door and yelled at again. \nThey’re mad that we give a verbal signal that we’re coming up on the left even though that’s the law. \nNow that I’m in Colorado I’m getting yelled at for the Idaho stop, which is completely legal. We yield to stop signs and temporarily stop at red lights only if it’s clear. It’s all to REDUCE CAR TRAFFIC. \nKeep in mind we are riding bicycles which in its own right REDUCES CAR TRAFFIC. \n80% of car trips are within 3 miles from your house. Everyone that rides a bike keeps you from being stuck behind them in traffic for longer then the 20 seconds you’re currently inconvenienced. It’s also mean parking closer to the front door of a shop. \nSo far I’ve had family members die from hit and runs and drunk drivers, but somehow cyclists are the most dangerous thing on the road today?! It’s not adding up.\nWhat is this really about?",
">\n\nI'm sorry for your losses. I never said bikers are the most dangerous things on the road. Saying this would be stupid. The problem in my city is the lack of respect from cyclists to pedestrians in a general way. I'm not even talking about drivers against EVERYTHING ON THE STREET.",
">\n\nI go out of my way to be respectful to everybody, and I’ve had nothing but kindness and respect from other cyclists .\nYou wanna blame everybody on a bicycle for all your problems when it’s really just about a few people who disrespected you. \nCyclists are drivers, walkers, etc. do they just jump on a bicycle and instantly become disrespectful?\nStill doesn’t make any logical sense.",
">\n\nDude you just don't get it.. i understand biking is your life.. but come on.\nI use to bike 40km per day to work. \nI don't have problems with people jumping on bikes. I simply hate the ones that are disrespectful.\nIs it too hard to understand? Just me venting coz I feel like a lot of bikers think they are on top of the citizen pyramid? \nI'm not venting about the system here, nor about cars.. just about some (yes some) bikers.\nAnd please there is no need to beg for upvotes on fuckcars how old are you?",
">\n\nI bet your fat.",
">\n\nOf course I fart !",
">\n\nTo you yours and to mine mine; I hate car users and their ilk who are filled with wonton waste and hate for all else who dare travel near them. I stop at all lights, halt for all signs, use a mirror, lights, and hand signals, pull over for cars coming my way so long as there is any room, and use what little biking infrastructure is available to me.\nMy taxes are waste and paid in folly for they assuredly go in portion to your reckless use of a powerful machine and not to my own reckless use of a small self-propelled stick on two wheels to separate lanes and keep them maintained. No, no, I must settle for the gutter and cry glee for that and be ashamed to move to the sidewalk when it suddenly ends and continues a block later down the road. \nFuck your car, your roads, and your selfish desire to pave the world and create cities with 60% of their coverage dedicated to driving a car, parking a car, and separating the world into places for cars and otherwise. You who drive faster and faster, in bigger and bigger cars. I loath you as you loath mine.",
">\n\nI wouldn’t hate cyclists if they didn’t act like road laws don’t apply to em in the city where I live. I’ve seen cyclists not even stop at red lights even with an almost full intersection, and ride the wrong way down one ways.\nEdit: I do wish the city where I live had more bike lanes but yeah.",
">\n\nIf you're going to hate someone, maybe hate the people actually doing those things.\nIf I see someone on a bike rush through a short break on a red light in an otherwise busy intersection, I shake my head and think they are an idiot. I think this while waiting for the light to turn green on my bike.\nSimilarly, when a car illegally stops in a bike lane (which happens ALL THE TIME by the way), I don't turn around and blame the cars moving along legally in the adjacent lane.",
">\n\nPedestrian are the worst.\nWhen i started using bicicle I was very polite: brake, ring, ask for permission. And what the large amount of people do? Ignore u, watch u in the eyes and take a step in the fucking middle of the trail (many many times! for real!), shout at you just because u exist. So.... At some point is fuck you all, I'm coming go out of the way. That's it",
">\n\n\nI will never drive nor park on a bike lane, always look into the mirror to be careful of one of you monkeys. So why can't you be careful when us peasants are walking?\n\nThis is dumb. Obviously there are plenty of cyclists who are careful and courteous about your safety. That's part of what a bell or \"watch out!\" (generally \"On your left\") is doing for you. And just because you are courteous to them doesn't mean everyone is. Is every driver a douchebag just because some of them crowd cyclists when and where the cyclist has the right to the road? No.",
">\n\nThe difference here is that generally car drivers are going to be held accountable for bad driving. This is in the form of dash cams, ANPR and red light cameras which catch drivers doing bad things and they can receive a fine or points on their licence. Cyclists currently can't be held accountable if they jump red lights or hit a car or pedestrian as there isn't anything that helps identify them. This is a big issue in cities. I live and work in London and see many cyclists jumping red lights and weaving around pedestrians crossing. Cars can't do this as most traffic lights have red light cameras that would catch this.\nDrivers as a collective (including me) are in no way perfect or even held to account 100% of the time, but I believe we need a system for cyclists to be held accountable too",
">\n\nYour way of thinking, while perfectly rational and natural, is outdated. Traffic law enforcement, like any other law enforcement, is less about the enforcement, and more about the prevention. Where I live, speed and red light cameras are clearly marked ahead so that the people who'd normally break the law follow it instead, making punishment unnecessary. \nSame could be done with cyclists. Sure, you could make every cyclist install a license plate, require a \"cycling license\", or install expensive cameras with facial identification software, but how about just make it so cyclists aren't incentivised to break the law in the first place? \nMake more useful cycling infrastructure, and more cyclists will use it. Make that infrastructure intersect with foot and motor traffic more safely and less often, and less collisions will happen.",
">\n\nI completely understand your point. However, a lot of money has gone into my local area for cycling infrastructure that most cyclists are using, but many are still choosing to break the rules as the rules are inconvenient. The infrastructure is not enough, there needs to be an incentive NOT to break the rules.\nIf you take a look at Chiswick High Road in London, England. They have created segregated cycle lanes from the traffic. These cycle lanes have their own lights and crossings to keep them safe from cars. However many cyclists just ignore the lights and just keep going into pedestrians. There is no punishment for them doing this as they can't be tracked. Personally I think every cyclist should have to register their bike (make it free to help encourage this) and then a new form of ANPR used to also catch cyclists in the act",
">\n\nPersonally I'd have no problem registering my bike for free, especially if I could use that same registration if it gets stolen, but registering something as mechanically simple and cheap as a bicycle is, in my opinion difficult if not impossible to do without making the bike mechanically complex and expensive, at which point most people would just switch to scooters.\nI don't live in London, but from what I've heard, by far the biggest threat in the city is still motorized traffic, namely cars and lorries, and so until that problem is no longer a problem, I wouldn't really do anything special about bikes. Maybe put some undercover bike cops near the most dangerous bike path/lane intersections to catch a few offenders and make an example out of them, but that's about it.",
">\n\nMost cars I’ve driven came equipped with brakes and a steering wheel. I don’t see the problem",
">\n\nA common take and a stupid one.\nThere are good and bad drivers, pedestrians, and cyclists. Hating any of them as a group because some of them do bad things is just dumb.",
">\n\nIf you followed the laws and stayed out of the bike lane as a pedestrian there would be no problem.",
">\n\nIf bicyclists followed the laws and stopped ignoring street signs/traffic lights there would be no problem.",
">\n\nDon’t see how this address the problem with pedestrians in bike lanes.",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Drivers pedestrians other cyclists. They're a scourge.",
">\n\nEvery word of this is pure wisdom.",
">\n\nAs a car driver, I too hate cyclists.\nI don't care who has 'right of way'. I'm in a car, you're not. If we collide, regardless of fault, you're the one that dies.\nDo you really want to die on the hill that says \"i can bike on the rode b/c it's legal\"?\nI might be in jail, but you're still dead.\nBikes don't belong on public roads. Unless there's a bike lane - aka, a pathway designed specifically for bikers.\nIt's FAR SAFER to bike on the sidewalk.",
">\n\nBe careful you’ll anger r/fuckcars",
">\n\nI recently got a bike in Japan and there isn't any room on the street to ride my bike. Most people are fine when I'm on the sidewalk, however, the worst ones are groups of 2 or more who try and take up as much space as possible allowing nobody to pass. Same with the people who constantly switch between the left and right side of the sidewalk. It's really annoying to see how little spacial awareness they have.",
">\n\nCyclists on the road don’t have to pass the same test as vehicles on the road, which is why they are so bad. If there was a test in order to cycle on the road then i think it would be alot better",
">\n\nWhy do you hate all cyclists when only some of them are rude/dangerous?",
">\n\nCope hehe",
">\n\nIt's the powered vehicles that kill most pedestrians.\nBut, sure, cyclists blahblah...",
">\n\nAs an occasional cyclist, I don't like you either.",
">\n\nI biked everywhere.....when I was a child. I'm an adult now and have an automobile. They are pretty neat.",
">\n\nWhen I used to have to walk to work I’d walk on the sidewalk and listen to music and one time this guy zipped right by me yelling almost knocking me over and flipped me off?? They act like they don’t have breaks lmao",
">\n\nholy smokes! glad you're ok",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Even cyclists.",
">\n\nAnd here i thought why the f pediatrician hate cyclists",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Even other cyclists.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist this thread is hilarious",
">\n\nAnyone got recommendations for how to be a nice, considerate cyclist besides being careful and non-entitled? I plan on starting when it gets warm outside.",
">\n\nNot unpopular",
">\n\nWhen I drive to work, I obey most of the rules. I just can't drive on some roads. That would either kill me at some point or I'd slow down a whole 60 km/h lane that's packed with traffic. When riding on the sidewalk, I always stop or get off my bike if it gets too crowded or the sidewalk narrows. But when no one is around I just keep driving normally, just slower than usual. I try to stay alert at all times and let everyone pass because I know I'm wrong here.\nAt one point there is a one-way street I'm not allowed to drive on, but as my alternatives are the same 60km/h road (but now also with rails) or a crowded sidewalk, I prefer the one-way street with maybe 4 cars per hour that I can easily avoid. After that there is finally a bike path until I get to work. There would be a legal route, but it would take twice, if not triple, the time.\nI also hate reckless cyclists. They have already endangered me and are often unfriendly assholes. I just don't have a death wish and don't want to drive a route in an hour if 20 minutes are possible in a safe way (If the brain gets used).",
">\n\nCyclists don’t care because unless they get injured there are no real consequences for their actions.\nI think that any vehicle, with or without any type of motor, should require a license to operate on a public roadway. Road legal bikes need to be held to quality standards, like cars, and should also be registered. If you wish to ride one on a public roadway it should have a number plate on it. You should have to pass a rider’s ed course proving that you know the rules of the road. There should be a test proving that you can control the vehicle and operate it safely, same as a car or motorcycle.",
">\n\nYeah I’ve nearly been run over from behind by cyclists on sidewalks too many times",
">\n\nIdk maybe my town is weird like everwhere on the internet and even in statistics you hear stuff like that but then I haven't really seen any cyclists run red lights ever and as someone who maybe not often but sometimes cycles, the last thing I'd do as a cyclist is run a red light like I don't wanna die?",
">\n\nOnly people that like cyclist.. are probably just other cyclists."
] |
>
Sometimes I feel like I am the only one watching out for pedestrians. For example when there's a crosswalk coming up that goes over the bike path and there's someone waiting, I always yield and the person waiting is often surprised since most people on bicycles just carry on. So not all cyclists are like that.
|
[
"I road cycled for years, I always followed the street rules. Always. Red light means red light. \nI have so many cycling friends who get into accidents and other conflicts with drivers, and yet they think it’s stupid to stop at a red light. They just don’t connect these two things",
">\n\nMost bikers I encounter are complete idiots. Like I'd be driving normally and out of nowhere comes a biker on a crosswalk in full speed. Now, I appreciate bikers who actually stop and make eye contact with me as I'm driving towards the crosswalk but man, it's either that or the biker almost dies because I have no time to brake.\nAnd what's up with all the bikers going like 5 kmh IN THE MIDDLE of a road when there's a dedicated sidewalk for bikers right next to them? Drives me insane.",
">\n\nIt seems like most bikers because of observation bias.\nIf you follow the rules as you should, you’re unmemorable.\nAs for the sidewalks - its actually less safe on the sidewalk.",
">\n\nInteresting. Dangerous situations are more valuable to remember, and I remember tons of irresponsible bikers. It is in fact observation bias. But I'm always happy to see those who pay close attention to traffic, and I do remeber some of them aswell.",
">\n\nWell the same goes for driving. How many cars do you remember when they haven’t done anything? But you tend to remember the ones who do something dumb",
">\n\nYeah it can be applied to anything really.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist in one of the most bike-dense cities in the world, I hate cyclists too. If I could avoid getting myself hurt, I’d be ramming at least ten of them a day just to teach a lesson about ignoring rules and common sense.",
">\n\nAmsterdam? Copenhagen?",
">\n\nCopenhagen. It’s a wonderful bike city but the people are incredibly self-centered.",
">\n\nI had high expectations from cyclists when I first visited the city, after all it is heralded as a cycling paradise and, well, let’s say it looked a lot more like the rest of the world and mainly because of the personal behavior of cyclists.\nMy local friend justified it, stating that it’s because danish are more temperamental than all other Scandinavians: an explanation that I really didn’t know what to do with…",
">\n\nIf “temperamental” means “a bunch of egotistical [insert unflattering body part]”, he’s right.",
">\n\nYou make it sound like a war zone. I live in Copenhagen and most of the time biking around the city is very pleasant. Except for the food delivery scooters, they can 🤬 off.",
">\n\nI guess it depends on how often and where you’re going. If you have places to be each and every day and want to get there effectively, people ignoring general rules and courtesies of the road are a pain. If you’re one of the types listening to podcasts with a latte in one hand and a phone in the other just trudging along, it’s probably fine.",
">\n\nSame! I love walking. Where I live on popular trails, there are bike lanes, but the cyclists will just ride wherever they. They don’t care and won’t let you know they’re coming. They’ll get pissy if you don’t just automatically know they’re coming up from behind you. If you do much as step foot in the bike lane, they get mad, but have no problems riding side by side outside the bike lane.",
">\n\nSame here! So much for my pleasant walk on the beautiful Trail. They sneak up and when they're almost on top of me, a loud voice yells \"On your left!\" They startle the shit out of me and cause me to jump sky high! 😡",
">\n\nIt’s literally the law to say that. This thread is all about hating them no matter if they follow the law or not.",
">\n\nIs it possible to do that without sneaking up on them and startling the shit out of them by yelling real loud? And then cutting is close to them as you possibly can without hitting them?",
">\n\nHello. \nMy useless comment to this post is here :D\nSo, i work in the accidents department of a big insurance company. My country is very strickt about the road rules, meaning:\nOur company estimates (is this the right word?) that around 82% of accidents involving cyclists, are to blame on the cyclist. Since there are expecific places on the road for you to ride your bike, even if it's not a bike lane.\nI remember a case where 3 dudes were just cycling, outside of town and they were literally on the middle of the road. the place where they were is full of curves and has very little visibility, so they were riding side by side, middle of the road, comes a car, hits not one, but the 3 of them because they scared the person and she just swerved the car.\nThey sued her and us (insurance) 2 times. Lost both and had to pay for all damage done on the car by their own bodys",
">\n\nThis sounds like something that happened near by my home town, are you in Ontario?",
">\n\nno XD portugal",
">\n\nGod its so much worse that it's happened in multiple places.\nIn ours I think the driver killed one of the cyclists, then sued the family for emotional damage",
">\n\nMy biggest gripe about cyclists is that there is always some danger when you encounter them on the road, either as a pedestrian or motorist. Now, part of it isn’t their fault. At least here in the US, not much of the infrastructure is made for bicycles. But cyclists are constantly breaking the rules of the road (or sidewalk) to get where they’re going faster. Blowing red lights, leaving the bike lane to use the sidewalk, splitting lanes. I always clench a little when I approach one, wondering if this is the day I can’t get out of the way.",
">\n\nWe have that same problem, but then a million times worse, because I live in The Netherlands. You probably know about our proud cycling culture (the Amsterdam stereotype). And yes, cyclists here are just as bad as the ones you describe, but there’s a lot more of them here. And oh yeah, traffic laws are almost always in their favor.",
">\n\nI found driving in the towns of the Netherlands so hard. Not just because I was on the wrong side of the road 😉 but because I just wasn’t used to sooo many cyclists coming from all directions, always faster than me and passing on both sides. Even as I was signalling to leave a roundabout at one point about three cyclists rode past on the inside. I really struggled to keep up with them all, which of course means I drove slower and thus even more bikes passed me!",
">\n\nYes that is of course very difficult, however as a Dutchman I’m used to cyclists, so of course we struggle a lot less. But that doesn’t take away from the fact that cyclists do cause a lot of issues because of their careless behavior, and because as drivers we have to accommodate them. That one sided ‘deal’ that we have makes it very difficult to deal with them.\nAll in all I’m happy we have so many cyclists as it’s good for the environment. But the utopian mindset of cyclists being a gift to the world is just stupid. Especially when you consider that mostly Americans who drive on wide open roads with barely any cyclists around are the ones praising cyclists in my country all the time. Also, cyclists annoy the hell out of pedestrians as well, so it’s not just about motorists.",
">\n\nCyclists treat red lights like stop signs and stop signs like yield signs (at best). They’re not allowed on sidewalks but do it anyway. Fuckin hate cyclists.",
">\n\nEverything you said is completely legal in Denver and sidewalks are illegal , but drivers constantly scream at cyclists to ride there",
">\n\nCyclist can roll stop signs and run red lights in Denver? What the fuck?",
">\n\nI’d have no problem if cyclist had respect for other road users. where I live there are cycle lanes, but most cyclists are on the road or pavements, they ignore red lights etc. \nIf you want to cycle please make it’s safe for yourself and others around you.",
">\n\nExactly my thoughts",
">\n\nHonestly, selfish assholes exist everywhere but a selfish asshole on a bicycle does a lot less damage than a selfish asshole in a car. \nEDIT: OP's also downvoting everyone who disagrees with him, just fyi.",
">\n\nAs a pedestrian, I hate everyone who's not a pedestrian... And some pedestrians too.",
">\n\nThere's a reason so many cyclists die each year, they all seem to pick and choose which laws they want to follow. Its always safer to assume they'll do whatever they want and everyone else needs to adapt to them.",
">\n\nAs a driver downtown, I don't worry at all about pedestrians at intersections, I can turn my head and assume they will be maybe five feet closer to my car when I look back, (and I trust they won't sprint towards me when I look away, at their own peril), but bikes, they ride so fast, that in the short time I turn my head to check for oncoming traffic, a bike could materialize right beside / infront me, and I risk hitting them or them hitting the side of my car. And that's even in their designated bike lane, that I have to pass through to clear the intersection. And if I drive into a ped at three miles per hour, they will just hit my hood with their fist and call me a stupid motherfucker, or whatever makes them feel justice was served, but if I bump the bike, it will be a big crash, the bicyclist will be all curled up in a ball on the ground, I'll be the bad guy in the eyes of the law and anyone nearby, and I'll probably be late as fuck to wherever it is I'm trying to go to.",
">\n\nI skateboard so I guess I'm good",
">\n\nJust don’t inconvenience narcissistic car drivers by a few seconds.",
">\n\nI think everyone hates cyclists. Cyclists included.",
">\n\nAs a driver, I hate you both",
">\n\nPedestrians are literally the worst. Anyone who has to walk more than 20 feet a day and not to their car are complete losers, and should be jailed on site.",
">\n\nOK, I think that's a bit extreme. But hey, if you're running for public office I'll vote for you. \nI do have to wonder anytime I see someone that I know has the mental faculties to drive who is walking. Usually assume too many DUI's.",
">\n\nr/fuckcars ripping out their hair rn",
">\n\nNot unpopular.\n Everyone hates cyclists.",
">\n\nI casually cycle in the summer. If I'm on a trail, I'll slow down and ring my bell if I see pedestrians, or stop and dismount if there's a lot of people or they don't notice me. Especially on the narrow trails in this woodlot I sometimes go to. \nThe problem is a lot of cyclists, especially in North America, but perhaps other places, just aren't respectful of others. They demand car drivers \"share the road\", but then ride in huge packs, lane split, don't signal turns, run stop signs and red lights, weave in and out of traffic, boot up busy sidewalks at 15-20mph, refuse to use provided bike lanes, etc. There's like a gross sense of entitlement in the cycling community. Dude, you're still a vehicle. There's rules that apply to you, just like there are for cars and motorcycles. Big problem is difficulty/lack of enforcement. Cops have to catch them in the act. Even then they're slippery devils since they're usually more mobile than a cruiser or beat cop on foot. This is why I support plating bikes to make them easily identifiable.",
">\n\n\nThere's like a gross sense of entitlement in the cycling community. Dude, you're still a vehicle. There's rules that apply to you, just like there are for cars and motorcycles.\n\nThat is the problem right there. They want to be treated equal to car owners, yet they do not abide by traffic rules, hence all the accidents.",
">\n\nAs a driver, I concur.",
">\n\nI hate bikers on trails. They're supposed to stop and let hikers by but they never do. They go by so freakin' fast too. It's like come on now!",
">\n\nAs a mostly former cyclist, I often hated cyclists too. Mostly, because so many cyclist are just competitive asshats that suck the pleasure out of their own bike ride by making everything about speed. Like, heaven forbid they have to slow and yield to anyone.\nOnce, I was riding my bicycle with my young daughter on a bike path in the city. A couple cyclist came up and got all pissy at us, saying we need to be out of the cycle lane because we were going too slow and my 8 year old kid wasn't keeping to a narrow lane. It was so hostile - my kid started crying.\nBut that is just so typical, all the time. I've gotten yelled out a few times when I made a full, foot down stop at a redlight because the cyclist behind me was expecting me to either run the redlight or at least go into the crosswalk and dance around (like they do) until it went green. I remember nearly getting run over by cyclists all the time, and yelled at if I was going too slow.\nThat being said, we need to do 100,000 x more in the US towards making bike paths, protected bike lanes, etc., because cyling is a truly great way to get around and I miss it. I just don't miss the self-centered asshats that dominate the cycling community.",
">\n\nThis!",
">\n\nI’ve nothing against cyclists as a group. I prefer to hate all people who do stupid things whether they’re in cars, on bikes or walking. Went to pick my daughter up tonight and counted six cyclists in the dark wearing all black with no lights at all plus one with a light so weak I didn’t see it until I was nearly past him. Tonight it was dumb cyclists, but tomorrow it might be idiots in cars. Hate the idiots not the method of transportation.",
">\n\nTrue !",
">\n\nOMG YES !! I completely agree. Every time i tried to explain this to a friend, they would always look at me like I am crazy for thinking such a thing. But as I walk for 45 minutes every days, it became a reality you can't ignore... I can't count how many times I nearly got hit by a cyclist, it happens every other week. I am starting to think that cyclists should have to go through a \"course\" to learn the basics of using the streets x)\n(Sorry for mistakes, not native here 'x) )",
">\n\nThis is my story lol..",
">\n\nYes, and it also is my personal experience, which is why I posted this..?",
">\n\nYes I totally agree. Just saying \"that's my life\" :) happening in Brussels tho",
">\n\nMy bad x) welp France here, it amazes me in a really bad way how this seems to be such a common phenomenon literaly EVERYWHERE",
">\n\nJ'ai roulé en vélo à Paris et laisse tomber l'enfer que c'était. J'avais l'impression d'avancer avec des oies qui insultaient tout le monde. BAa bAAA BAaaAa !!! \nLe problème c'est que plus les gens sont stressés (même les piétons... Genre dans le metro) plus ils se haïssent et ce matin j'avais la haine sur les vélos.. en vrai j'ai la haine sur tous les citadins haha",
">\n\nas a cyclist I hate everyone",
">\n\nSame, I see posts like this where people tell us to ride on the sidewalk when it’s illegal. \nThey assume we don’t walk anywhere, drive, etc like we are essentially subhuman for doing exercise.\nThey tell us to ride closer to the right side of the road so we get hit by a car door. \nThey’re mad that we give a verbal signal that we’re coming up on the left even though that’s the law. \nnow that I’m in Colorado I’m getting yelled at for the Idaho stop, which is completely legal. We yield to stop signs and temporarily stop at red light only till it’s clear. It’s all to REDUCE CAR TRAFFIC.\nSo far I’ve had family members die from hit and runs and drunk drivers, but somehow cyclists are the most dangerous thing on the road today.\nWhat is this really about?",
">\n\nI loathe cyclists. Selfish, entitled lycra lunatics.",
">\n\nBe honest, do you realize that it's possible to ride a bicycle and not be selfish, or entitled, or a lunatic, or not wear lycra?",
">\n\nThis thread is such a circlejerk, it's ridiculous.",
">\n\nThat's what I'm here for",
">\n\nIt's because cycling isn't regulated like motor vehicles are but they still get on the roads unlike pedestrians. So they don't have knowledge on the rules of the road that drivers have.\nThere's also some sort of hypocrisy they have where they believe drivers should give way to them because bikes are more vulnerable than cars while expecting pedestrians to give way to them because they're moving faster.",
">\n\n\nSo they don't have knowledge on the rules of the road\n\nPlenty do. Many cyclists also are automobilists. They just feel like they're exempted from respecting trafic rules because it's tiring to stop and go on a bike and they're slower an lighter than cars.",
">\n\nSure you got hit by a truck, but at least you managed to save yourself a little time and avoid waiting for a few seconds. Is what I'd say if they didn't then end up in the hospital",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists, as it should be.",
">\n\nCyclists shouldn’t be on sidewalks",
">\n\nI also cringe a lot when I see the international Reddit community constantly praise us Dutch people for our biking culture. People have no idea how many traffic accidents we get that could have been avoided if we didn’t have cyclists EVERYWHERE who are barely aware of the traffic rules that also apply to them.\nPeople have no idea about how cyclists are almost always right according to our traffic laws, which makes them much more reckless. They cause millions of dollars of damage to cars (and pedestrians) each year, and barely ever face consequences for their irresponsible and reckless behavior in traffic.\nPeople don’t see how cyclists often block traffic because they like to cycle next to each other in pairs, and if you honk they get angry and sometimes even aggressive and try to break your side mirror if they feel like it.\nMany intersections have bicycle lanes that you need to check when making a turn when driving, even though the intersection is already super busy with lots of cars. And guess what, cyclists still ride around fast and recklessly and making sure you don’t hit another car, cyclist AND pedestrian is all the job of one single driver.\nSo all in all, people from countries where driving is a relatively easy and chill thing to do, praise cycling culture in other countries. Try to drive here in busy traffic with thousands of cars AND (RECKLESS) CYCLISTS on the road and then tell me what it’s like.",
">\n\nIt would be much easier to sympathize with cars drivers if they did not need like 60% of the entire transit space leaving cyclists and pedestrians very little.\n\neven though the intersection is already super busy with lots of cars\n\nOfc, because cars are so large and need so much space.",
">\n\nI get that, but why is that my fault? I don’t do the city planning. Besides, cars are much larger than bicycles, so doesn’t it make sense there’s more space needed for cars than for bicycles?\nBut even then, if you don’t want to have any sympathy for motorists, because city planners give them more space than others, that’s just weird. It’s not the motorist’s fault.",
">\n\n\ndoesn’t it make sense there’s more space needed for cars than for bicycles?\n\nWhy a valuable and scarce resource such as the public space in cities should be used predominantly to benefit car users while barring everyone else? \nI just find it much harder to sympathize with the privileged group.",
">\n\nBecause people need to be able to go from A to B?",
">\n\nSo do pedestrians/public transport users/cyclists. But they don't require so much space per person.",
">\n\nWell in The Netherlands public transportation takes up an enormous amount of space and cyclists have their own dedicated lanes almost everywhere. Also motorists have to give public transportation space as we usually have to stop for trams and buses to pass, according to traffic rules. Guess who doesn’t often follow those rules: cyclists.\nHowever, public transportation itself is super busy and unbelievably expensive in The Netherlands. It costs more than 20 Euros to travel ~70 kilometers. That’s why a lot of people still prefer to have a car, and cars simply need infrastructure.\nSo I don’t really get your point. Cars, bicycles and public transportation all get a fair portion of the space that’s available.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist, i hate pedestrians. Here in Germany, there is bike lanes, one part for bikes and one for pedestrians on traffic lights... etc. But the pedestrians just ignore them, form \"walls\" of people blocking the bike lane, dont look while crossing the bike lane. Even cars repect us more than you.",
">\n\nThis I understand. Experienced the same in Denmark",
">\n\nClaaaaaarksoooooonnnnn",
">\n\nIdk about other places but here cyclists are constantly breaking the law and never getting ticketed for it. It makes no sense to me. I don’t think it’d make a huge difference but I do think some cyclists would think twice about disregarding the rules if those rules were actually enforced.",
">\n\nI get the sentiment. My feeling is the root cause is they don’t have their own infrastructure. Cars and peds do. So cyclists are always forced into a non ideal path. \nI’m aware they have rights to the road but cars and bikes really struggle to share an infrastructure clearly made for cars. \nSo if we invest in cycling infrastructure everyone would probably be happier.",
">\n\ndoubt it. In my city there is an asphalt bike path for miles that is like 8 feet wide. Smooth. No stop signs. Do they use it? nope they get their collective ass out on the street and I honestly don't have a clue why.\nIt defies logic. Safter, smooth, not cars/trunks, etc. Here they are out on the street just fiddle farting down a 45 mph road like they own it with a bike path 15 feet away with no one on it. The last guy I asked said \"It is my road as well you know\" that I ran up on while I was at a crossing while riding on the path myself. I just gave up trying to understand. Someone dies on that road every couple of months from bike or pedestrian strike with a vehicle. It was the whole reason they built the path....",
">\n\nWell in my experience there are 2 thing going on there.\na) Often bikers will avoid the path because peds often share or walk across those paths and their speed is closer to that of a car than a ped or \nb) If they are commuting...the path likely isn't going exactly where they need to.\nAs to your specific scenario I don't doubt there are bikers that are hard headed and stubborn. I know a few of those. But generally I do bikers using the infrastructure where we have built it.",
">\n\nThere's an accident here involving @ car running over a cyclist who crossed a red traffic light. And guess who take the blame?",
">\n\nLaughs in being dutch",
">\n\nIt is regrettable that a handful of asshole cyclists ruins everyone’s opinion of us. It really undermines the support needed to improve infrastructure for cycling. \nIf it is any help, when i ring my bell, I am doing so to avoid the alternatives of either yelling a warning or startling people. I normally exit the path and pass on the grass. I would say that most cyclist are the same. I don’t want you to get out of the way, I want you to know I am there. \nBut it only takes a couple assholes that think they own the path or the street. I have a cousin like this and it is difficult to convince him his is wrong and is putting himself and others in danger.",
">\n\nI think the a-holes are people that are only on a bike because it's the easiest thing for them, living where they do. You and those like you are on the bike because you love cycling.",
">\n\nI live in Portland, OR, and the cyclists here are so fucking rude and entitled.",
">\n\nI live in not-Portland OR and visited once. I biked down the road. Could not believe how nice everyone was to me. Probably because they could tell I’m an outsider.",
">\n\nI meant how they treat everyone else who isn't on a bike, tbh.",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists and it's for a simple reason. They think they can do whatever the hell they want. They switch between a pedestrian, a cyclist and a vehicle deciding on the fly whatever rules they feel like following with no accountability. \nOne minute they are skipping traffic, then they are deciding to cross at a crosswalk instead of following traffic. And the sidewalks are bike lanes if that's more convenient.",
">\n\nI just get annoyed because they will ride double wide on a tight street, forcing you to go 60mph in a 45, on the opposite side of traffic, risking a head on collision. And yea, you have to do that, because otherwise cars behind you will start driving aggressive as well as the fact that your expecting all the cars to go at a bikes speed on the road.",
">\n\nThat's because every country except for the Netherlands and Denmark have shit bicycle infrastructure.",
">\n\nI civilised countries we have cycling paths and cycling on the street is also possible as drivers aren't insane. So this seems rather like a problem of poor urban planning than cyclists in general.",
">\n\nWhere I live the cyclists just refuse to take the bikelane and either block the traffic because the rather use the street or they decide to use the pedestrian side of the sidewalk. The frickin bikelane is as big as the pedestrian one. There is no excuse not to use it and they still won't! One of them almost hit me if I hadn't dodge it. If the cyclist only drove a few inches to the left there would have been a bikelane and it wouldn't happened. Of course the person didn't apologize and just cursed at me.",
">\n\nBike gutters are awful and less safe than taking the lane. Assholes park in the bike lanes ALL THE TIME. Plus no one ever looks behind them when getting out pf their car so getting smacked by a door is a real danger. Drivers are entitled but it’s not their fault it’s the way we’ve built society to allow and expect them to be.\nETA: next time you’re driving around take a count how many people you see pulled over or parked in a bike gutter.",
">\n\nCompletely agree - I was ran over almost 3 times in Berlin. \nAnd every single time I checked before crossing - but they just suddenly spawned right in the way",
">\n\nDid you cross at a designated crosswalk? As a cyclist the amount of times people just randomly meander across an active street instead of going to the zebra/lollipop crossing, and then get angry at me when I have to swerve out the way/ brake is comical.",
">\n\nMan, y'all are sad people. \n\"Get off the road!\" Okay, now we are on the sidewalk. \n\"Get off the sidewalk!\" Back in the road again. \n\"They need to ring their bells so we know they're coming! Btw I hate it when they ring their bells so I know they're coming.\"",
">\n\nI hate cyclists like that. I don’t have a car so my bike is my main source of transportation and I don’t ride like that. So far, from what I’ve noticed in my area, I’m the only one that follows the damn rules in my city xD",
">\n\nNo matter where you are and who you are… driver or walker, scooter or flyer… we ALL hate cyclists.",
">\n\nI feel ya. The only thing I hate more than cyclists is electric scooters.",
">\n\nCompletely agree! A cycling license (similar to driving) should be required. Far too many cyclist who doesn’t know (and those who don’t just give a F) about traffic rules.",
">\n\nI completely agree! Cyclists have a lot of rights on the roads, and are very vocal about them, but think they can do whatever the fuck they want at roundabouts and pedestrian crossings.",
">\n\nIt just fascinates me how anyone can walk or drive through a city and genuinely think that bicycles are the problem. Look around you at every turn there are cars jamming the roads. Parked blocking things. Blocking pavements. Driving aggressively. Speeding. Failing to stop. Polluting the air. If they hit you, you are seriously injured or dead. This happens in the thousands. The city absolutely revolves around them.",
">\n\nYou are 100% right. Except I didn't say bicycles are the problem. I said i hate them. I said fuck cars too. I also said bicycles are one of the best alternative for trafic jam in cities.\nCities in Europe weren't made for cars nor bikes. So the problem is the fucking lazy greedy people who decide how to spend our tax money. The problem is people thinking they are all alone on the street. The problem is how stressed everybody is and how it become dangerous.\nNot because I hate how cyclists take revenge from drivers bullies to pedestrians makes me hate a transportation model itself.",
">\n\nIt just seems odd that people can really harp on about cyclists when they are such a trivial issue. Posts like this can get hundreds of replies. People tend to make excuses about cars.",
">\n\nYou just insulted a whole country.",
">\n\nThe Netherlands? It's ok",
">\n\nOk",
">\n\nI judge the actions of the individual not the mode of transport. I find it produces more accurate results.",
">\n\nApparently \"individuals alone are responsible for their own actions\" is the real unpopular opinion here.",
">\n\nIndeed 😀",
">\n\nAs a car driver I also hate cyclists. Saw one on a 45mph the other day despite there being a sidewalk AND a bikelane",
">\n\n45 mph isn't a speed for bike lane or sidewalk. Street is",
">\n\nas a cyclist, I hate pedestrians.\nMy city put in these nice protected bicycle lanes so bikes don't have to ride inches from cars, and boy don't those pedestrians just LOVE using the bike lane as a queuing up spot for the crosswalks. it's just so nice and convenient to get 5 more feet closer to your goal, isn't it? Those bicycles can stop and wait...and feel free to swear at them like THEY are the ones in the wrong.\nBicycles and pedestrians are natural enemies, that's never going to change. There can be only one.",
">\n\nLET'S END THIS NOW !!!!!",
">\n\nanyplace but Holy Ground.",
">\n\ndon't blame all bicyclists for the shitty ones.\nthat would be like saying every person who drives a car is an asshole. or every person who walks on the sidewalk is an asshole.\nsome people are good at getting around. other people are jerks. don't blame everyone for the actions of a small subset of people.",
">\n\nI mean, isn’t that the sentiment over that the popular sub r/fuckcars? The generalization is already being perpetuated from cyclists and “urbanists” in their war against cars.",
">\n\nNot really. That sub mostly hates the focus on cars when designing infrastructure, as well as the forced dependency on cars in our modern world. Not individual drivers.",
">\n\nSure about that? It’s mostly just a bitch-fest about driver errors to further their political agenda.",
">\n\nYea, I'm pretty sure.",
">\n\nReally weird way to get there if that’s the case. Alienating a large portion of the population (car drivers, car riders, people that depend on vehicles for the delivery of goods and services) is not how you get them on your side.",
">\n\nI don't think that's their goal in the first place. It's just a reddit sub.",
">\n\nEspecially when they have a stupid fucking bell and say \"on the left\" then proceed to be on the right side of the trail running into you",
">\n\nHahahha \"is he coming on the left or should i go on the lef...\" BANG!!",
">\n\nGF lives in a college town. It’s as if there’s some kinda fuckin’ death wish among the student cycling population",
">\n\nAs a [insert anyone, including cyclist], I hate cyclists.",
">\n\nPeople don't wanna hear it when it comes from automobilists because \"gngn cars are more dangerous and drivers are entitled\" but reality is cyclists are just the worst. Whether I'm on foot, driving a car, or riding a bicycle myself, cyclists are always always the ones being absolute public hazards. Heck, when I'm on my bike and stop at the stop sign on a cycle lane to let the cars go, they look at me as if I'm jesus or something. They even try to let me pass first because of how used they are to cyclists who just can't be bothered to respect the damn stop sign.",
">\n\nThe problem isn't the cyclists here, it's the lacking infrastructure.",
">\n\nWe shouldn't have to build infrastructure so people can partake in recreation. I find that comment extremely arrogant. Why on earth do cyclists deserve to have their recreation glorified and catered to??",
">\n\nRecreation? Ah yes, cycling is only for recreation.",
">\n\nWell, where I live that I'd the ONLY purpose. I'm 17 miles from any city municipality. Nobody is biking here to go to the grocery store or work.",
">\n\nNot everything is about you personally.",
">\n\nTo me, it is, and should be. My concern is around how cyclists inconvenience me while I'm trying to be a productive member of society. I feel like that's a fair critique.",
">\n\nYou are mad that cyclists inconvenience you yet you reject dedicated infrastructure as a solution. Do you think cyclists should be banned off the road completely?",
">\n\nThe real issue here is lacking cycling infrastructure.",
">\n\nDefinitely a major issue.\nBut part of the issue is definitely cyclists who prioritize their own speed over the safety and welfare of everyone around them. It's like they are all BMW drivers, deep down, and just don't want to yield to or slow down for anyone.",
">\n\nI'm sure there are, assholes exist in all vehicle types.",
">\n\nCyclists know thar neither the pavement nor the road are theirs because motorists and pedestrians like you are both screaming at them all the time. And I swear you'd be angrier if they didn't give a polite warning that they're coming toward you. \nCyclists who breeze through crossings instead of stopping are a minority, much like cyclists are a minority in general, and you can't judge an entire group that aren't adequately represented",
">\n\nFuck traveling in general",
">\n\nYa. Where are our transporters! \nSorry had to go full nerd.",
">\n\nI see posts like this constantly. It blows my mind people can just choose one thing that is so insignificant to scapegoat. \nThey assume people on bikes don’t also walk, drive, etc like we are essentially subhuman for doing exercise / running errands in this way because they are inconvenienced for a few seconds. You realize we are human like you , right?\nPeople tell us to ride bicycles on the sidewalk when it’s illegal while others say not too. It’s usually against the law.\nThey tell us to ride closer to the right side of the road , so we get hit by a car door and yelled at again. \nThey’re mad that we give a verbal signal that we’re coming up on the left even though that’s the law. \nNow that I’m in Colorado I’m getting yelled at for the Idaho stop, which is completely legal. We yield to stop signs and temporarily stop at red lights only if it’s clear. It’s all to REDUCE CAR TRAFFIC. \nKeep in mind we are riding bicycles which in its own right REDUCES CAR TRAFFIC. \n80% of car trips are within 3 miles from your house. Everyone that rides a bike keeps you from being stuck behind them in traffic for longer then the 20 seconds you’re currently inconvenienced. It’s also mean parking closer to the front door of a shop. \nSo far I’ve had family members die from hit and runs and drunk drivers, but somehow cyclists are the most dangerous thing on the road today?! It’s not adding up.\nWhat is this really about?",
">\n\nI'm sorry for your losses. I never said bikers are the most dangerous things on the road. Saying this would be stupid. The problem in my city is the lack of respect from cyclists to pedestrians in a general way. I'm not even talking about drivers against EVERYTHING ON THE STREET.",
">\n\nI go out of my way to be respectful to everybody, and I’ve had nothing but kindness and respect from other cyclists .\nYou wanna blame everybody on a bicycle for all your problems when it’s really just about a few people who disrespected you. \nCyclists are drivers, walkers, etc. do they just jump on a bicycle and instantly become disrespectful?\nStill doesn’t make any logical sense.",
">\n\nDude you just don't get it.. i understand biking is your life.. but come on.\nI use to bike 40km per day to work. \nI don't have problems with people jumping on bikes. I simply hate the ones that are disrespectful.\nIs it too hard to understand? Just me venting coz I feel like a lot of bikers think they are on top of the citizen pyramid? \nI'm not venting about the system here, nor about cars.. just about some (yes some) bikers.\nAnd please there is no need to beg for upvotes on fuckcars how old are you?",
">\n\nI bet your fat.",
">\n\nOf course I fart !",
">\n\nTo you yours and to mine mine; I hate car users and their ilk who are filled with wonton waste and hate for all else who dare travel near them. I stop at all lights, halt for all signs, use a mirror, lights, and hand signals, pull over for cars coming my way so long as there is any room, and use what little biking infrastructure is available to me.\nMy taxes are waste and paid in folly for they assuredly go in portion to your reckless use of a powerful machine and not to my own reckless use of a small self-propelled stick on two wheels to separate lanes and keep them maintained. No, no, I must settle for the gutter and cry glee for that and be ashamed to move to the sidewalk when it suddenly ends and continues a block later down the road. \nFuck your car, your roads, and your selfish desire to pave the world and create cities with 60% of their coverage dedicated to driving a car, parking a car, and separating the world into places for cars and otherwise. You who drive faster and faster, in bigger and bigger cars. I loath you as you loath mine.",
">\n\nI wouldn’t hate cyclists if they didn’t act like road laws don’t apply to em in the city where I live. I’ve seen cyclists not even stop at red lights even with an almost full intersection, and ride the wrong way down one ways.\nEdit: I do wish the city where I live had more bike lanes but yeah.",
">\n\nIf you're going to hate someone, maybe hate the people actually doing those things.\nIf I see someone on a bike rush through a short break on a red light in an otherwise busy intersection, I shake my head and think they are an idiot. I think this while waiting for the light to turn green on my bike.\nSimilarly, when a car illegally stops in a bike lane (which happens ALL THE TIME by the way), I don't turn around and blame the cars moving along legally in the adjacent lane.",
">\n\nPedestrian are the worst.\nWhen i started using bicicle I was very polite: brake, ring, ask for permission. And what the large amount of people do? Ignore u, watch u in the eyes and take a step in the fucking middle of the trail (many many times! for real!), shout at you just because u exist. So.... At some point is fuck you all, I'm coming go out of the way. That's it",
">\n\n\nI will never drive nor park on a bike lane, always look into the mirror to be careful of one of you monkeys. So why can't you be careful when us peasants are walking?\n\nThis is dumb. Obviously there are plenty of cyclists who are careful and courteous about your safety. That's part of what a bell or \"watch out!\" (generally \"On your left\") is doing for you. And just because you are courteous to them doesn't mean everyone is. Is every driver a douchebag just because some of them crowd cyclists when and where the cyclist has the right to the road? No.",
">\n\nThe difference here is that generally car drivers are going to be held accountable for bad driving. This is in the form of dash cams, ANPR and red light cameras which catch drivers doing bad things and they can receive a fine or points on their licence. Cyclists currently can't be held accountable if they jump red lights or hit a car or pedestrian as there isn't anything that helps identify them. This is a big issue in cities. I live and work in London and see many cyclists jumping red lights and weaving around pedestrians crossing. Cars can't do this as most traffic lights have red light cameras that would catch this.\nDrivers as a collective (including me) are in no way perfect or even held to account 100% of the time, but I believe we need a system for cyclists to be held accountable too",
">\n\nYour way of thinking, while perfectly rational and natural, is outdated. Traffic law enforcement, like any other law enforcement, is less about the enforcement, and more about the prevention. Where I live, speed and red light cameras are clearly marked ahead so that the people who'd normally break the law follow it instead, making punishment unnecessary. \nSame could be done with cyclists. Sure, you could make every cyclist install a license plate, require a \"cycling license\", or install expensive cameras with facial identification software, but how about just make it so cyclists aren't incentivised to break the law in the first place? \nMake more useful cycling infrastructure, and more cyclists will use it. Make that infrastructure intersect with foot and motor traffic more safely and less often, and less collisions will happen.",
">\n\nI completely understand your point. However, a lot of money has gone into my local area for cycling infrastructure that most cyclists are using, but many are still choosing to break the rules as the rules are inconvenient. The infrastructure is not enough, there needs to be an incentive NOT to break the rules.\nIf you take a look at Chiswick High Road in London, England. They have created segregated cycle lanes from the traffic. These cycle lanes have their own lights and crossings to keep them safe from cars. However many cyclists just ignore the lights and just keep going into pedestrians. There is no punishment for them doing this as they can't be tracked. Personally I think every cyclist should have to register their bike (make it free to help encourage this) and then a new form of ANPR used to also catch cyclists in the act",
">\n\nPersonally I'd have no problem registering my bike for free, especially if I could use that same registration if it gets stolen, but registering something as mechanically simple and cheap as a bicycle is, in my opinion difficult if not impossible to do without making the bike mechanically complex and expensive, at which point most people would just switch to scooters.\nI don't live in London, but from what I've heard, by far the biggest threat in the city is still motorized traffic, namely cars and lorries, and so until that problem is no longer a problem, I wouldn't really do anything special about bikes. Maybe put some undercover bike cops near the most dangerous bike path/lane intersections to catch a few offenders and make an example out of them, but that's about it.",
">\n\nMost cars I’ve driven came equipped with brakes and a steering wheel. I don’t see the problem",
">\n\nA common take and a stupid one.\nThere are good and bad drivers, pedestrians, and cyclists. Hating any of them as a group because some of them do bad things is just dumb.",
">\n\nIf you followed the laws and stayed out of the bike lane as a pedestrian there would be no problem.",
">\n\nIf bicyclists followed the laws and stopped ignoring street signs/traffic lights there would be no problem.",
">\n\nDon’t see how this address the problem with pedestrians in bike lanes.",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Drivers pedestrians other cyclists. They're a scourge.",
">\n\nEvery word of this is pure wisdom.",
">\n\nAs a car driver, I too hate cyclists.\nI don't care who has 'right of way'. I'm in a car, you're not. If we collide, regardless of fault, you're the one that dies.\nDo you really want to die on the hill that says \"i can bike on the rode b/c it's legal\"?\nI might be in jail, but you're still dead.\nBikes don't belong on public roads. Unless there's a bike lane - aka, a pathway designed specifically for bikers.\nIt's FAR SAFER to bike on the sidewalk.",
">\n\nBe careful you’ll anger r/fuckcars",
">\n\nI recently got a bike in Japan and there isn't any room on the street to ride my bike. Most people are fine when I'm on the sidewalk, however, the worst ones are groups of 2 or more who try and take up as much space as possible allowing nobody to pass. Same with the people who constantly switch between the left and right side of the sidewalk. It's really annoying to see how little spacial awareness they have.",
">\n\nCyclists on the road don’t have to pass the same test as vehicles on the road, which is why they are so bad. If there was a test in order to cycle on the road then i think it would be alot better",
">\n\nWhy do you hate all cyclists when only some of them are rude/dangerous?",
">\n\nCope hehe",
">\n\nIt's the powered vehicles that kill most pedestrians.\nBut, sure, cyclists blahblah...",
">\n\nAs an occasional cyclist, I don't like you either.",
">\n\nI biked everywhere.....when I was a child. I'm an adult now and have an automobile. They are pretty neat.",
">\n\nWhen I used to have to walk to work I’d walk on the sidewalk and listen to music and one time this guy zipped right by me yelling almost knocking me over and flipped me off?? They act like they don’t have breaks lmao",
">\n\nholy smokes! glad you're ok",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Even cyclists.",
">\n\nAnd here i thought why the f pediatrician hate cyclists",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Even other cyclists.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist this thread is hilarious",
">\n\nAnyone got recommendations for how to be a nice, considerate cyclist besides being careful and non-entitled? I plan on starting when it gets warm outside.",
">\n\nNot unpopular",
">\n\nWhen I drive to work, I obey most of the rules. I just can't drive on some roads. That would either kill me at some point or I'd slow down a whole 60 km/h lane that's packed with traffic. When riding on the sidewalk, I always stop or get off my bike if it gets too crowded or the sidewalk narrows. But when no one is around I just keep driving normally, just slower than usual. I try to stay alert at all times and let everyone pass because I know I'm wrong here.\nAt one point there is a one-way street I'm not allowed to drive on, but as my alternatives are the same 60km/h road (but now also with rails) or a crowded sidewalk, I prefer the one-way street with maybe 4 cars per hour that I can easily avoid. After that there is finally a bike path until I get to work. There would be a legal route, but it would take twice, if not triple, the time.\nI also hate reckless cyclists. They have already endangered me and are often unfriendly assholes. I just don't have a death wish and don't want to drive a route in an hour if 20 minutes are possible in a safe way (If the brain gets used).",
">\n\nCyclists don’t care because unless they get injured there are no real consequences for their actions.\nI think that any vehicle, with or without any type of motor, should require a license to operate on a public roadway. Road legal bikes need to be held to quality standards, like cars, and should also be registered. If you wish to ride one on a public roadway it should have a number plate on it. You should have to pass a rider’s ed course proving that you know the rules of the road. There should be a test proving that you can control the vehicle and operate it safely, same as a car or motorcycle.",
">\n\nYeah I’ve nearly been run over from behind by cyclists on sidewalks too many times",
">\n\nIdk maybe my town is weird like everwhere on the internet and even in statistics you hear stuff like that but then I haven't really seen any cyclists run red lights ever and as someone who maybe not often but sometimes cycles, the last thing I'd do as a cyclist is run a red light like I don't wanna die?",
">\n\nOnly people that like cyclist.. are probably just other cyclists.",
">\n\nI don’t mind normal, law-abiding cyclists at all. I just despise the ones that think they can choose whether to act like a car or pedestrian whenever they feel like it. Or worse, they don’t know the actual laws but think they are special just because they are riding a bike."
] |
>
As a pedestrian, cyclist and driver, I hate taxis.
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[
"I road cycled for years, I always followed the street rules. Always. Red light means red light. \nI have so many cycling friends who get into accidents and other conflicts with drivers, and yet they think it’s stupid to stop at a red light. They just don’t connect these two things",
">\n\nMost bikers I encounter are complete idiots. Like I'd be driving normally and out of nowhere comes a biker on a crosswalk in full speed. Now, I appreciate bikers who actually stop and make eye contact with me as I'm driving towards the crosswalk but man, it's either that or the biker almost dies because I have no time to brake.\nAnd what's up with all the bikers going like 5 kmh IN THE MIDDLE of a road when there's a dedicated sidewalk for bikers right next to them? Drives me insane.",
">\n\nIt seems like most bikers because of observation bias.\nIf you follow the rules as you should, you’re unmemorable.\nAs for the sidewalks - its actually less safe on the sidewalk.",
">\n\nInteresting. Dangerous situations are more valuable to remember, and I remember tons of irresponsible bikers. It is in fact observation bias. But I'm always happy to see those who pay close attention to traffic, and I do remeber some of them aswell.",
">\n\nWell the same goes for driving. How many cars do you remember when they haven’t done anything? But you tend to remember the ones who do something dumb",
">\n\nYeah it can be applied to anything really.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist in one of the most bike-dense cities in the world, I hate cyclists too. If I could avoid getting myself hurt, I’d be ramming at least ten of them a day just to teach a lesson about ignoring rules and common sense.",
">\n\nAmsterdam? Copenhagen?",
">\n\nCopenhagen. It’s a wonderful bike city but the people are incredibly self-centered.",
">\n\nI had high expectations from cyclists when I first visited the city, after all it is heralded as a cycling paradise and, well, let’s say it looked a lot more like the rest of the world and mainly because of the personal behavior of cyclists.\nMy local friend justified it, stating that it’s because danish are more temperamental than all other Scandinavians: an explanation that I really didn’t know what to do with…",
">\n\nIf “temperamental” means “a bunch of egotistical [insert unflattering body part]”, he’s right.",
">\n\nYou make it sound like a war zone. I live in Copenhagen and most of the time biking around the city is very pleasant. Except for the food delivery scooters, they can 🤬 off.",
">\n\nI guess it depends on how often and where you’re going. If you have places to be each and every day and want to get there effectively, people ignoring general rules and courtesies of the road are a pain. If you’re one of the types listening to podcasts with a latte in one hand and a phone in the other just trudging along, it’s probably fine.",
">\n\nSame! I love walking. Where I live on popular trails, there are bike lanes, but the cyclists will just ride wherever they. They don’t care and won’t let you know they’re coming. They’ll get pissy if you don’t just automatically know they’re coming up from behind you. If you do much as step foot in the bike lane, they get mad, but have no problems riding side by side outside the bike lane.",
">\n\nSame here! So much for my pleasant walk on the beautiful Trail. They sneak up and when they're almost on top of me, a loud voice yells \"On your left!\" They startle the shit out of me and cause me to jump sky high! 😡",
">\n\nIt’s literally the law to say that. This thread is all about hating them no matter if they follow the law or not.",
">\n\nIs it possible to do that without sneaking up on them and startling the shit out of them by yelling real loud? And then cutting is close to them as you possibly can without hitting them?",
">\n\nHello. \nMy useless comment to this post is here :D\nSo, i work in the accidents department of a big insurance company. My country is very strickt about the road rules, meaning:\nOur company estimates (is this the right word?) that around 82% of accidents involving cyclists, are to blame on the cyclist. Since there are expecific places on the road for you to ride your bike, even if it's not a bike lane.\nI remember a case where 3 dudes were just cycling, outside of town and they were literally on the middle of the road. the place where they were is full of curves and has very little visibility, so they were riding side by side, middle of the road, comes a car, hits not one, but the 3 of them because they scared the person and she just swerved the car.\nThey sued her and us (insurance) 2 times. Lost both and had to pay for all damage done on the car by their own bodys",
">\n\nThis sounds like something that happened near by my home town, are you in Ontario?",
">\n\nno XD portugal",
">\n\nGod its so much worse that it's happened in multiple places.\nIn ours I think the driver killed one of the cyclists, then sued the family for emotional damage",
">\n\nMy biggest gripe about cyclists is that there is always some danger when you encounter them on the road, either as a pedestrian or motorist. Now, part of it isn’t their fault. At least here in the US, not much of the infrastructure is made for bicycles. But cyclists are constantly breaking the rules of the road (or sidewalk) to get where they’re going faster. Blowing red lights, leaving the bike lane to use the sidewalk, splitting lanes. I always clench a little when I approach one, wondering if this is the day I can’t get out of the way.",
">\n\nWe have that same problem, but then a million times worse, because I live in The Netherlands. You probably know about our proud cycling culture (the Amsterdam stereotype). And yes, cyclists here are just as bad as the ones you describe, but there’s a lot more of them here. And oh yeah, traffic laws are almost always in their favor.",
">\n\nI found driving in the towns of the Netherlands so hard. Not just because I was on the wrong side of the road 😉 but because I just wasn’t used to sooo many cyclists coming from all directions, always faster than me and passing on both sides. Even as I was signalling to leave a roundabout at one point about three cyclists rode past on the inside. I really struggled to keep up with them all, which of course means I drove slower and thus even more bikes passed me!",
">\n\nYes that is of course very difficult, however as a Dutchman I’m used to cyclists, so of course we struggle a lot less. But that doesn’t take away from the fact that cyclists do cause a lot of issues because of their careless behavior, and because as drivers we have to accommodate them. That one sided ‘deal’ that we have makes it very difficult to deal with them.\nAll in all I’m happy we have so many cyclists as it’s good for the environment. But the utopian mindset of cyclists being a gift to the world is just stupid. Especially when you consider that mostly Americans who drive on wide open roads with barely any cyclists around are the ones praising cyclists in my country all the time. Also, cyclists annoy the hell out of pedestrians as well, so it’s not just about motorists.",
">\n\nCyclists treat red lights like stop signs and stop signs like yield signs (at best). They’re not allowed on sidewalks but do it anyway. Fuckin hate cyclists.",
">\n\nEverything you said is completely legal in Denver and sidewalks are illegal , but drivers constantly scream at cyclists to ride there",
">\n\nCyclist can roll stop signs and run red lights in Denver? What the fuck?",
">\n\nI’d have no problem if cyclist had respect for other road users. where I live there are cycle lanes, but most cyclists are on the road or pavements, they ignore red lights etc. \nIf you want to cycle please make it’s safe for yourself and others around you.",
">\n\nExactly my thoughts",
">\n\nHonestly, selfish assholes exist everywhere but a selfish asshole on a bicycle does a lot less damage than a selfish asshole in a car. \nEDIT: OP's also downvoting everyone who disagrees with him, just fyi.",
">\n\nAs a pedestrian, I hate everyone who's not a pedestrian... And some pedestrians too.",
">\n\nThere's a reason so many cyclists die each year, they all seem to pick and choose which laws they want to follow. Its always safer to assume they'll do whatever they want and everyone else needs to adapt to them.",
">\n\nAs a driver downtown, I don't worry at all about pedestrians at intersections, I can turn my head and assume they will be maybe five feet closer to my car when I look back, (and I trust they won't sprint towards me when I look away, at their own peril), but bikes, they ride so fast, that in the short time I turn my head to check for oncoming traffic, a bike could materialize right beside / infront me, and I risk hitting them or them hitting the side of my car. And that's even in their designated bike lane, that I have to pass through to clear the intersection. And if I drive into a ped at three miles per hour, they will just hit my hood with their fist and call me a stupid motherfucker, or whatever makes them feel justice was served, but if I bump the bike, it will be a big crash, the bicyclist will be all curled up in a ball on the ground, I'll be the bad guy in the eyes of the law and anyone nearby, and I'll probably be late as fuck to wherever it is I'm trying to go to.",
">\n\nI skateboard so I guess I'm good",
">\n\nJust don’t inconvenience narcissistic car drivers by a few seconds.",
">\n\nI think everyone hates cyclists. Cyclists included.",
">\n\nAs a driver, I hate you both",
">\n\nPedestrians are literally the worst. Anyone who has to walk more than 20 feet a day and not to their car are complete losers, and should be jailed on site.",
">\n\nOK, I think that's a bit extreme. But hey, if you're running for public office I'll vote for you. \nI do have to wonder anytime I see someone that I know has the mental faculties to drive who is walking. Usually assume too many DUI's.",
">\n\nr/fuckcars ripping out their hair rn",
">\n\nNot unpopular.\n Everyone hates cyclists.",
">\n\nI casually cycle in the summer. If I'm on a trail, I'll slow down and ring my bell if I see pedestrians, or stop and dismount if there's a lot of people or they don't notice me. Especially on the narrow trails in this woodlot I sometimes go to. \nThe problem is a lot of cyclists, especially in North America, but perhaps other places, just aren't respectful of others. They demand car drivers \"share the road\", but then ride in huge packs, lane split, don't signal turns, run stop signs and red lights, weave in and out of traffic, boot up busy sidewalks at 15-20mph, refuse to use provided bike lanes, etc. There's like a gross sense of entitlement in the cycling community. Dude, you're still a vehicle. There's rules that apply to you, just like there are for cars and motorcycles. Big problem is difficulty/lack of enforcement. Cops have to catch them in the act. Even then they're slippery devils since they're usually more mobile than a cruiser or beat cop on foot. This is why I support plating bikes to make them easily identifiable.",
">\n\n\nThere's like a gross sense of entitlement in the cycling community. Dude, you're still a vehicle. There's rules that apply to you, just like there are for cars and motorcycles.\n\nThat is the problem right there. They want to be treated equal to car owners, yet they do not abide by traffic rules, hence all the accidents.",
">\n\nAs a driver, I concur.",
">\n\nI hate bikers on trails. They're supposed to stop and let hikers by but they never do. They go by so freakin' fast too. It's like come on now!",
">\n\nAs a mostly former cyclist, I often hated cyclists too. Mostly, because so many cyclist are just competitive asshats that suck the pleasure out of their own bike ride by making everything about speed. Like, heaven forbid they have to slow and yield to anyone.\nOnce, I was riding my bicycle with my young daughter on a bike path in the city. A couple cyclist came up and got all pissy at us, saying we need to be out of the cycle lane because we were going too slow and my 8 year old kid wasn't keeping to a narrow lane. It was so hostile - my kid started crying.\nBut that is just so typical, all the time. I've gotten yelled out a few times when I made a full, foot down stop at a redlight because the cyclist behind me was expecting me to either run the redlight or at least go into the crosswalk and dance around (like they do) until it went green. I remember nearly getting run over by cyclists all the time, and yelled at if I was going too slow.\nThat being said, we need to do 100,000 x more in the US towards making bike paths, protected bike lanes, etc., because cyling is a truly great way to get around and I miss it. I just don't miss the self-centered asshats that dominate the cycling community.",
">\n\nThis!",
">\n\nI’ve nothing against cyclists as a group. I prefer to hate all people who do stupid things whether they’re in cars, on bikes or walking. Went to pick my daughter up tonight and counted six cyclists in the dark wearing all black with no lights at all plus one with a light so weak I didn’t see it until I was nearly past him. Tonight it was dumb cyclists, but tomorrow it might be idiots in cars. Hate the idiots not the method of transportation.",
">\n\nTrue !",
">\n\nOMG YES !! I completely agree. Every time i tried to explain this to a friend, they would always look at me like I am crazy for thinking such a thing. But as I walk for 45 minutes every days, it became a reality you can't ignore... I can't count how many times I nearly got hit by a cyclist, it happens every other week. I am starting to think that cyclists should have to go through a \"course\" to learn the basics of using the streets x)\n(Sorry for mistakes, not native here 'x) )",
">\n\nThis is my story lol..",
">\n\nYes, and it also is my personal experience, which is why I posted this..?",
">\n\nYes I totally agree. Just saying \"that's my life\" :) happening in Brussels tho",
">\n\nMy bad x) welp France here, it amazes me in a really bad way how this seems to be such a common phenomenon literaly EVERYWHERE",
">\n\nJ'ai roulé en vélo à Paris et laisse tomber l'enfer que c'était. J'avais l'impression d'avancer avec des oies qui insultaient tout le monde. BAa bAAA BAaaAa !!! \nLe problème c'est que plus les gens sont stressés (même les piétons... Genre dans le metro) plus ils se haïssent et ce matin j'avais la haine sur les vélos.. en vrai j'ai la haine sur tous les citadins haha",
">\n\nas a cyclist I hate everyone",
">\n\nSame, I see posts like this where people tell us to ride on the sidewalk when it’s illegal. \nThey assume we don’t walk anywhere, drive, etc like we are essentially subhuman for doing exercise.\nThey tell us to ride closer to the right side of the road so we get hit by a car door. \nThey’re mad that we give a verbal signal that we’re coming up on the left even though that’s the law. \nnow that I’m in Colorado I’m getting yelled at for the Idaho stop, which is completely legal. We yield to stop signs and temporarily stop at red light only till it’s clear. It’s all to REDUCE CAR TRAFFIC.\nSo far I’ve had family members die from hit and runs and drunk drivers, but somehow cyclists are the most dangerous thing on the road today.\nWhat is this really about?",
">\n\nI loathe cyclists. Selfish, entitled lycra lunatics.",
">\n\nBe honest, do you realize that it's possible to ride a bicycle and not be selfish, or entitled, or a lunatic, or not wear lycra?",
">\n\nThis thread is such a circlejerk, it's ridiculous.",
">\n\nThat's what I'm here for",
">\n\nIt's because cycling isn't regulated like motor vehicles are but they still get on the roads unlike pedestrians. So they don't have knowledge on the rules of the road that drivers have.\nThere's also some sort of hypocrisy they have where they believe drivers should give way to them because bikes are more vulnerable than cars while expecting pedestrians to give way to them because they're moving faster.",
">\n\n\nSo they don't have knowledge on the rules of the road\n\nPlenty do. Many cyclists also are automobilists. They just feel like they're exempted from respecting trafic rules because it's tiring to stop and go on a bike and they're slower an lighter than cars.",
">\n\nSure you got hit by a truck, but at least you managed to save yourself a little time and avoid waiting for a few seconds. Is what I'd say if they didn't then end up in the hospital",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists, as it should be.",
">\n\nCyclists shouldn’t be on sidewalks",
">\n\nI also cringe a lot when I see the international Reddit community constantly praise us Dutch people for our biking culture. People have no idea how many traffic accidents we get that could have been avoided if we didn’t have cyclists EVERYWHERE who are barely aware of the traffic rules that also apply to them.\nPeople have no idea about how cyclists are almost always right according to our traffic laws, which makes them much more reckless. They cause millions of dollars of damage to cars (and pedestrians) each year, and barely ever face consequences for their irresponsible and reckless behavior in traffic.\nPeople don’t see how cyclists often block traffic because they like to cycle next to each other in pairs, and if you honk they get angry and sometimes even aggressive and try to break your side mirror if they feel like it.\nMany intersections have bicycle lanes that you need to check when making a turn when driving, even though the intersection is already super busy with lots of cars. And guess what, cyclists still ride around fast and recklessly and making sure you don’t hit another car, cyclist AND pedestrian is all the job of one single driver.\nSo all in all, people from countries where driving is a relatively easy and chill thing to do, praise cycling culture in other countries. Try to drive here in busy traffic with thousands of cars AND (RECKLESS) CYCLISTS on the road and then tell me what it’s like.",
">\n\nIt would be much easier to sympathize with cars drivers if they did not need like 60% of the entire transit space leaving cyclists and pedestrians very little.\n\neven though the intersection is already super busy with lots of cars\n\nOfc, because cars are so large and need so much space.",
">\n\nI get that, but why is that my fault? I don’t do the city planning. Besides, cars are much larger than bicycles, so doesn’t it make sense there’s more space needed for cars than for bicycles?\nBut even then, if you don’t want to have any sympathy for motorists, because city planners give them more space than others, that’s just weird. It’s not the motorist’s fault.",
">\n\n\ndoesn’t it make sense there’s more space needed for cars than for bicycles?\n\nWhy a valuable and scarce resource such as the public space in cities should be used predominantly to benefit car users while barring everyone else? \nI just find it much harder to sympathize with the privileged group.",
">\n\nBecause people need to be able to go from A to B?",
">\n\nSo do pedestrians/public transport users/cyclists. But they don't require so much space per person.",
">\n\nWell in The Netherlands public transportation takes up an enormous amount of space and cyclists have their own dedicated lanes almost everywhere. Also motorists have to give public transportation space as we usually have to stop for trams and buses to pass, according to traffic rules. Guess who doesn’t often follow those rules: cyclists.\nHowever, public transportation itself is super busy and unbelievably expensive in The Netherlands. It costs more than 20 Euros to travel ~70 kilometers. That’s why a lot of people still prefer to have a car, and cars simply need infrastructure.\nSo I don’t really get your point. Cars, bicycles and public transportation all get a fair portion of the space that’s available.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist, i hate pedestrians. Here in Germany, there is bike lanes, one part for bikes and one for pedestrians on traffic lights... etc. But the pedestrians just ignore them, form \"walls\" of people blocking the bike lane, dont look while crossing the bike lane. Even cars repect us more than you.",
">\n\nThis I understand. Experienced the same in Denmark",
">\n\nClaaaaaarksoooooonnnnn",
">\n\nIdk about other places but here cyclists are constantly breaking the law and never getting ticketed for it. It makes no sense to me. I don’t think it’d make a huge difference but I do think some cyclists would think twice about disregarding the rules if those rules were actually enforced.",
">\n\nI get the sentiment. My feeling is the root cause is they don’t have their own infrastructure. Cars and peds do. So cyclists are always forced into a non ideal path. \nI’m aware they have rights to the road but cars and bikes really struggle to share an infrastructure clearly made for cars. \nSo if we invest in cycling infrastructure everyone would probably be happier.",
">\n\ndoubt it. In my city there is an asphalt bike path for miles that is like 8 feet wide. Smooth. No stop signs. Do they use it? nope they get their collective ass out on the street and I honestly don't have a clue why.\nIt defies logic. Safter, smooth, not cars/trunks, etc. Here they are out on the street just fiddle farting down a 45 mph road like they own it with a bike path 15 feet away with no one on it. The last guy I asked said \"It is my road as well you know\" that I ran up on while I was at a crossing while riding on the path myself. I just gave up trying to understand. Someone dies on that road every couple of months from bike or pedestrian strike with a vehicle. It was the whole reason they built the path....",
">\n\nWell in my experience there are 2 thing going on there.\na) Often bikers will avoid the path because peds often share or walk across those paths and their speed is closer to that of a car than a ped or \nb) If they are commuting...the path likely isn't going exactly where they need to.\nAs to your specific scenario I don't doubt there are bikers that are hard headed and stubborn. I know a few of those. But generally I do bikers using the infrastructure where we have built it.",
">\n\nThere's an accident here involving @ car running over a cyclist who crossed a red traffic light. And guess who take the blame?",
">\n\nLaughs in being dutch",
">\n\nIt is regrettable that a handful of asshole cyclists ruins everyone’s opinion of us. It really undermines the support needed to improve infrastructure for cycling. \nIf it is any help, when i ring my bell, I am doing so to avoid the alternatives of either yelling a warning or startling people. I normally exit the path and pass on the grass. I would say that most cyclist are the same. I don’t want you to get out of the way, I want you to know I am there. \nBut it only takes a couple assholes that think they own the path or the street. I have a cousin like this and it is difficult to convince him his is wrong and is putting himself and others in danger.",
">\n\nI think the a-holes are people that are only on a bike because it's the easiest thing for them, living where they do. You and those like you are on the bike because you love cycling.",
">\n\nI live in Portland, OR, and the cyclists here are so fucking rude and entitled.",
">\n\nI live in not-Portland OR and visited once. I biked down the road. Could not believe how nice everyone was to me. Probably because they could tell I’m an outsider.",
">\n\nI meant how they treat everyone else who isn't on a bike, tbh.",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists and it's for a simple reason. They think they can do whatever the hell they want. They switch between a pedestrian, a cyclist and a vehicle deciding on the fly whatever rules they feel like following with no accountability. \nOne minute they are skipping traffic, then they are deciding to cross at a crosswalk instead of following traffic. And the sidewalks are bike lanes if that's more convenient.",
">\n\nI just get annoyed because they will ride double wide on a tight street, forcing you to go 60mph in a 45, on the opposite side of traffic, risking a head on collision. And yea, you have to do that, because otherwise cars behind you will start driving aggressive as well as the fact that your expecting all the cars to go at a bikes speed on the road.",
">\n\nThat's because every country except for the Netherlands and Denmark have shit bicycle infrastructure.",
">\n\nI civilised countries we have cycling paths and cycling on the street is also possible as drivers aren't insane. So this seems rather like a problem of poor urban planning than cyclists in general.",
">\n\nWhere I live the cyclists just refuse to take the bikelane and either block the traffic because the rather use the street or they decide to use the pedestrian side of the sidewalk. The frickin bikelane is as big as the pedestrian one. There is no excuse not to use it and they still won't! One of them almost hit me if I hadn't dodge it. If the cyclist only drove a few inches to the left there would have been a bikelane and it wouldn't happened. Of course the person didn't apologize and just cursed at me.",
">\n\nBike gutters are awful and less safe than taking the lane. Assholes park in the bike lanes ALL THE TIME. Plus no one ever looks behind them when getting out pf their car so getting smacked by a door is a real danger. Drivers are entitled but it’s not their fault it’s the way we’ve built society to allow and expect them to be.\nETA: next time you’re driving around take a count how many people you see pulled over or parked in a bike gutter.",
">\n\nCompletely agree - I was ran over almost 3 times in Berlin. \nAnd every single time I checked before crossing - but they just suddenly spawned right in the way",
">\n\nDid you cross at a designated crosswalk? As a cyclist the amount of times people just randomly meander across an active street instead of going to the zebra/lollipop crossing, and then get angry at me when I have to swerve out the way/ brake is comical.",
">\n\nMan, y'all are sad people. \n\"Get off the road!\" Okay, now we are on the sidewalk. \n\"Get off the sidewalk!\" Back in the road again. \n\"They need to ring their bells so we know they're coming! Btw I hate it when they ring their bells so I know they're coming.\"",
">\n\nI hate cyclists like that. I don’t have a car so my bike is my main source of transportation and I don’t ride like that. So far, from what I’ve noticed in my area, I’m the only one that follows the damn rules in my city xD",
">\n\nNo matter where you are and who you are… driver or walker, scooter or flyer… we ALL hate cyclists.",
">\n\nI feel ya. The only thing I hate more than cyclists is electric scooters.",
">\n\nCompletely agree! A cycling license (similar to driving) should be required. Far too many cyclist who doesn’t know (and those who don’t just give a F) about traffic rules.",
">\n\nI completely agree! Cyclists have a lot of rights on the roads, and are very vocal about them, but think they can do whatever the fuck they want at roundabouts and pedestrian crossings.",
">\n\nIt just fascinates me how anyone can walk or drive through a city and genuinely think that bicycles are the problem. Look around you at every turn there are cars jamming the roads. Parked blocking things. Blocking pavements. Driving aggressively. Speeding. Failing to stop. Polluting the air. If they hit you, you are seriously injured or dead. This happens in the thousands. The city absolutely revolves around them.",
">\n\nYou are 100% right. Except I didn't say bicycles are the problem. I said i hate them. I said fuck cars too. I also said bicycles are one of the best alternative for trafic jam in cities.\nCities in Europe weren't made for cars nor bikes. So the problem is the fucking lazy greedy people who decide how to spend our tax money. The problem is people thinking they are all alone on the street. The problem is how stressed everybody is and how it become dangerous.\nNot because I hate how cyclists take revenge from drivers bullies to pedestrians makes me hate a transportation model itself.",
">\n\nIt just seems odd that people can really harp on about cyclists when they are such a trivial issue. Posts like this can get hundreds of replies. People tend to make excuses about cars.",
">\n\nYou just insulted a whole country.",
">\n\nThe Netherlands? It's ok",
">\n\nOk",
">\n\nI judge the actions of the individual not the mode of transport. I find it produces more accurate results.",
">\n\nApparently \"individuals alone are responsible for their own actions\" is the real unpopular opinion here.",
">\n\nIndeed 😀",
">\n\nAs a car driver I also hate cyclists. Saw one on a 45mph the other day despite there being a sidewalk AND a bikelane",
">\n\n45 mph isn't a speed for bike lane or sidewalk. Street is",
">\n\nas a cyclist, I hate pedestrians.\nMy city put in these nice protected bicycle lanes so bikes don't have to ride inches from cars, and boy don't those pedestrians just LOVE using the bike lane as a queuing up spot for the crosswalks. it's just so nice and convenient to get 5 more feet closer to your goal, isn't it? Those bicycles can stop and wait...and feel free to swear at them like THEY are the ones in the wrong.\nBicycles and pedestrians are natural enemies, that's never going to change. There can be only one.",
">\n\nLET'S END THIS NOW !!!!!",
">\n\nanyplace but Holy Ground.",
">\n\ndon't blame all bicyclists for the shitty ones.\nthat would be like saying every person who drives a car is an asshole. or every person who walks on the sidewalk is an asshole.\nsome people are good at getting around. other people are jerks. don't blame everyone for the actions of a small subset of people.",
">\n\nI mean, isn’t that the sentiment over that the popular sub r/fuckcars? The generalization is already being perpetuated from cyclists and “urbanists” in their war against cars.",
">\n\nNot really. That sub mostly hates the focus on cars when designing infrastructure, as well as the forced dependency on cars in our modern world. Not individual drivers.",
">\n\nSure about that? It’s mostly just a bitch-fest about driver errors to further their political agenda.",
">\n\nYea, I'm pretty sure.",
">\n\nReally weird way to get there if that’s the case. Alienating a large portion of the population (car drivers, car riders, people that depend on vehicles for the delivery of goods and services) is not how you get them on your side.",
">\n\nI don't think that's their goal in the first place. It's just a reddit sub.",
">\n\nEspecially when they have a stupid fucking bell and say \"on the left\" then proceed to be on the right side of the trail running into you",
">\n\nHahahha \"is he coming on the left or should i go on the lef...\" BANG!!",
">\n\nGF lives in a college town. It’s as if there’s some kinda fuckin’ death wish among the student cycling population",
">\n\nAs a [insert anyone, including cyclist], I hate cyclists.",
">\n\nPeople don't wanna hear it when it comes from automobilists because \"gngn cars are more dangerous and drivers are entitled\" but reality is cyclists are just the worst. Whether I'm on foot, driving a car, or riding a bicycle myself, cyclists are always always the ones being absolute public hazards. Heck, when I'm on my bike and stop at the stop sign on a cycle lane to let the cars go, they look at me as if I'm jesus or something. They even try to let me pass first because of how used they are to cyclists who just can't be bothered to respect the damn stop sign.",
">\n\nThe problem isn't the cyclists here, it's the lacking infrastructure.",
">\n\nWe shouldn't have to build infrastructure so people can partake in recreation. I find that comment extremely arrogant. Why on earth do cyclists deserve to have their recreation glorified and catered to??",
">\n\nRecreation? Ah yes, cycling is only for recreation.",
">\n\nWell, where I live that I'd the ONLY purpose. I'm 17 miles from any city municipality. Nobody is biking here to go to the grocery store or work.",
">\n\nNot everything is about you personally.",
">\n\nTo me, it is, and should be. My concern is around how cyclists inconvenience me while I'm trying to be a productive member of society. I feel like that's a fair critique.",
">\n\nYou are mad that cyclists inconvenience you yet you reject dedicated infrastructure as a solution. Do you think cyclists should be banned off the road completely?",
">\n\nThe real issue here is lacking cycling infrastructure.",
">\n\nDefinitely a major issue.\nBut part of the issue is definitely cyclists who prioritize their own speed over the safety and welfare of everyone around them. It's like they are all BMW drivers, deep down, and just don't want to yield to or slow down for anyone.",
">\n\nI'm sure there are, assholes exist in all vehicle types.",
">\n\nCyclists know thar neither the pavement nor the road are theirs because motorists and pedestrians like you are both screaming at them all the time. And I swear you'd be angrier if they didn't give a polite warning that they're coming toward you. \nCyclists who breeze through crossings instead of stopping are a minority, much like cyclists are a minority in general, and you can't judge an entire group that aren't adequately represented",
">\n\nFuck traveling in general",
">\n\nYa. Where are our transporters! \nSorry had to go full nerd.",
">\n\nI see posts like this constantly. It blows my mind people can just choose one thing that is so insignificant to scapegoat. \nThey assume people on bikes don’t also walk, drive, etc like we are essentially subhuman for doing exercise / running errands in this way because they are inconvenienced for a few seconds. You realize we are human like you , right?\nPeople tell us to ride bicycles on the sidewalk when it’s illegal while others say not too. It’s usually against the law.\nThey tell us to ride closer to the right side of the road , so we get hit by a car door and yelled at again. \nThey’re mad that we give a verbal signal that we’re coming up on the left even though that’s the law. \nNow that I’m in Colorado I’m getting yelled at for the Idaho stop, which is completely legal. We yield to stop signs and temporarily stop at red lights only if it’s clear. It’s all to REDUCE CAR TRAFFIC. \nKeep in mind we are riding bicycles which in its own right REDUCES CAR TRAFFIC. \n80% of car trips are within 3 miles from your house. Everyone that rides a bike keeps you from being stuck behind them in traffic for longer then the 20 seconds you’re currently inconvenienced. It’s also mean parking closer to the front door of a shop. \nSo far I’ve had family members die from hit and runs and drunk drivers, but somehow cyclists are the most dangerous thing on the road today?! It’s not adding up.\nWhat is this really about?",
">\n\nI'm sorry for your losses. I never said bikers are the most dangerous things on the road. Saying this would be stupid. The problem in my city is the lack of respect from cyclists to pedestrians in a general way. I'm not even talking about drivers against EVERYTHING ON THE STREET.",
">\n\nI go out of my way to be respectful to everybody, and I’ve had nothing but kindness and respect from other cyclists .\nYou wanna blame everybody on a bicycle for all your problems when it’s really just about a few people who disrespected you. \nCyclists are drivers, walkers, etc. do they just jump on a bicycle and instantly become disrespectful?\nStill doesn’t make any logical sense.",
">\n\nDude you just don't get it.. i understand biking is your life.. but come on.\nI use to bike 40km per day to work. \nI don't have problems with people jumping on bikes. I simply hate the ones that are disrespectful.\nIs it too hard to understand? Just me venting coz I feel like a lot of bikers think they are on top of the citizen pyramid? \nI'm not venting about the system here, nor about cars.. just about some (yes some) bikers.\nAnd please there is no need to beg for upvotes on fuckcars how old are you?",
">\n\nI bet your fat.",
">\n\nOf course I fart !",
">\n\nTo you yours and to mine mine; I hate car users and their ilk who are filled with wonton waste and hate for all else who dare travel near them. I stop at all lights, halt for all signs, use a mirror, lights, and hand signals, pull over for cars coming my way so long as there is any room, and use what little biking infrastructure is available to me.\nMy taxes are waste and paid in folly for they assuredly go in portion to your reckless use of a powerful machine and not to my own reckless use of a small self-propelled stick on two wheels to separate lanes and keep them maintained. No, no, I must settle for the gutter and cry glee for that and be ashamed to move to the sidewalk when it suddenly ends and continues a block later down the road. \nFuck your car, your roads, and your selfish desire to pave the world and create cities with 60% of their coverage dedicated to driving a car, parking a car, and separating the world into places for cars and otherwise. You who drive faster and faster, in bigger and bigger cars. I loath you as you loath mine.",
">\n\nI wouldn’t hate cyclists if they didn’t act like road laws don’t apply to em in the city where I live. I’ve seen cyclists not even stop at red lights even with an almost full intersection, and ride the wrong way down one ways.\nEdit: I do wish the city where I live had more bike lanes but yeah.",
">\n\nIf you're going to hate someone, maybe hate the people actually doing those things.\nIf I see someone on a bike rush through a short break on a red light in an otherwise busy intersection, I shake my head and think they are an idiot. I think this while waiting for the light to turn green on my bike.\nSimilarly, when a car illegally stops in a bike lane (which happens ALL THE TIME by the way), I don't turn around and blame the cars moving along legally in the adjacent lane.",
">\n\nPedestrian are the worst.\nWhen i started using bicicle I was very polite: brake, ring, ask for permission. And what the large amount of people do? Ignore u, watch u in the eyes and take a step in the fucking middle of the trail (many many times! for real!), shout at you just because u exist. So.... At some point is fuck you all, I'm coming go out of the way. That's it",
">\n\n\nI will never drive nor park on a bike lane, always look into the mirror to be careful of one of you monkeys. So why can't you be careful when us peasants are walking?\n\nThis is dumb. Obviously there are plenty of cyclists who are careful and courteous about your safety. That's part of what a bell or \"watch out!\" (generally \"On your left\") is doing for you. And just because you are courteous to them doesn't mean everyone is. Is every driver a douchebag just because some of them crowd cyclists when and where the cyclist has the right to the road? No.",
">\n\nThe difference here is that generally car drivers are going to be held accountable for bad driving. This is in the form of dash cams, ANPR and red light cameras which catch drivers doing bad things and they can receive a fine or points on their licence. Cyclists currently can't be held accountable if they jump red lights or hit a car or pedestrian as there isn't anything that helps identify them. This is a big issue in cities. I live and work in London and see many cyclists jumping red lights and weaving around pedestrians crossing. Cars can't do this as most traffic lights have red light cameras that would catch this.\nDrivers as a collective (including me) are in no way perfect or even held to account 100% of the time, but I believe we need a system for cyclists to be held accountable too",
">\n\nYour way of thinking, while perfectly rational and natural, is outdated. Traffic law enforcement, like any other law enforcement, is less about the enforcement, and more about the prevention. Where I live, speed and red light cameras are clearly marked ahead so that the people who'd normally break the law follow it instead, making punishment unnecessary. \nSame could be done with cyclists. Sure, you could make every cyclist install a license plate, require a \"cycling license\", or install expensive cameras with facial identification software, but how about just make it so cyclists aren't incentivised to break the law in the first place? \nMake more useful cycling infrastructure, and more cyclists will use it. Make that infrastructure intersect with foot and motor traffic more safely and less often, and less collisions will happen.",
">\n\nI completely understand your point. However, a lot of money has gone into my local area for cycling infrastructure that most cyclists are using, but many are still choosing to break the rules as the rules are inconvenient. The infrastructure is not enough, there needs to be an incentive NOT to break the rules.\nIf you take a look at Chiswick High Road in London, England. They have created segregated cycle lanes from the traffic. These cycle lanes have their own lights and crossings to keep them safe from cars. However many cyclists just ignore the lights and just keep going into pedestrians. There is no punishment for them doing this as they can't be tracked. Personally I think every cyclist should have to register their bike (make it free to help encourage this) and then a new form of ANPR used to also catch cyclists in the act",
">\n\nPersonally I'd have no problem registering my bike for free, especially if I could use that same registration if it gets stolen, but registering something as mechanically simple and cheap as a bicycle is, in my opinion difficult if not impossible to do without making the bike mechanically complex and expensive, at which point most people would just switch to scooters.\nI don't live in London, but from what I've heard, by far the biggest threat in the city is still motorized traffic, namely cars and lorries, and so until that problem is no longer a problem, I wouldn't really do anything special about bikes. Maybe put some undercover bike cops near the most dangerous bike path/lane intersections to catch a few offenders and make an example out of them, but that's about it.",
">\n\nMost cars I’ve driven came equipped with brakes and a steering wheel. I don’t see the problem",
">\n\nA common take and a stupid one.\nThere are good and bad drivers, pedestrians, and cyclists. Hating any of them as a group because some of them do bad things is just dumb.",
">\n\nIf you followed the laws and stayed out of the bike lane as a pedestrian there would be no problem.",
">\n\nIf bicyclists followed the laws and stopped ignoring street signs/traffic lights there would be no problem.",
">\n\nDon’t see how this address the problem with pedestrians in bike lanes.",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Drivers pedestrians other cyclists. They're a scourge.",
">\n\nEvery word of this is pure wisdom.",
">\n\nAs a car driver, I too hate cyclists.\nI don't care who has 'right of way'. I'm in a car, you're not. If we collide, regardless of fault, you're the one that dies.\nDo you really want to die on the hill that says \"i can bike on the rode b/c it's legal\"?\nI might be in jail, but you're still dead.\nBikes don't belong on public roads. Unless there's a bike lane - aka, a pathway designed specifically for bikers.\nIt's FAR SAFER to bike on the sidewalk.",
">\n\nBe careful you’ll anger r/fuckcars",
">\n\nI recently got a bike in Japan and there isn't any room on the street to ride my bike. Most people are fine when I'm on the sidewalk, however, the worst ones are groups of 2 or more who try and take up as much space as possible allowing nobody to pass. Same with the people who constantly switch between the left and right side of the sidewalk. It's really annoying to see how little spacial awareness they have.",
">\n\nCyclists on the road don’t have to pass the same test as vehicles on the road, which is why they are so bad. If there was a test in order to cycle on the road then i think it would be alot better",
">\n\nWhy do you hate all cyclists when only some of them are rude/dangerous?",
">\n\nCope hehe",
">\n\nIt's the powered vehicles that kill most pedestrians.\nBut, sure, cyclists blahblah...",
">\n\nAs an occasional cyclist, I don't like you either.",
">\n\nI biked everywhere.....when I was a child. I'm an adult now and have an automobile. They are pretty neat.",
">\n\nWhen I used to have to walk to work I’d walk on the sidewalk and listen to music and one time this guy zipped right by me yelling almost knocking me over and flipped me off?? They act like they don’t have breaks lmao",
">\n\nholy smokes! glad you're ok",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Even cyclists.",
">\n\nAnd here i thought why the f pediatrician hate cyclists",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Even other cyclists.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist this thread is hilarious",
">\n\nAnyone got recommendations for how to be a nice, considerate cyclist besides being careful and non-entitled? I plan on starting when it gets warm outside.",
">\n\nNot unpopular",
">\n\nWhen I drive to work, I obey most of the rules. I just can't drive on some roads. That would either kill me at some point or I'd slow down a whole 60 km/h lane that's packed with traffic. When riding on the sidewalk, I always stop or get off my bike if it gets too crowded or the sidewalk narrows. But when no one is around I just keep driving normally, just slower than usual. I try to stay alert at all times and let everyone pass because I know I'm wrong here.\nAt one point there is a one-way street I'm not allowed to drive on, but as my alternatives are the same 60km/h road (but now also with rails) or a crowded sidewalk, I prefer the one-way street with maybe 4 cars per hour that I can easily avoid. After that there is finally a bike path until I get to work. There would be a legal route, but it would take twice, if not triple, the time.\nI also hate reckless cyclists. They have already endangered me and are often unfriendly assholes. I just don't have a death wish and don't want to drive a route in an hour if 20 minutes are possible in a safe way (If the brain gets used).",
">\n\nCyclists don’t care because unless they get injured there are no real consequences for their actions.\nI think that any vehicle, with or without any type of motor, should require a license to operate on a public roadway. Road legal bikes need to be held to quality standards, like cars, and should also be registered. If you wish to ride one on a public roadway it should have a number plate on it. You should have to pass a rider’s ed course proving that you know the rules of the road. There should be a test proving that you can control the vehicle and operate it safely, same as a car or motorcycle.",
">\n\nYeah I’ve nearly been run over from behind by cyclists on sidewalks too many times",
">\n\nIdk maybe my town is weird like everwhere on the internet and even in statistics you hear stuff like that but then I haven't really seen any cyclists run red lights ever and as someone who maybe not often but sometimes cycles, the last thing I'd do as a cyclist is run a red light like I don't wanna die?",
">\n\nOnly people that like cyclist.. are probably just other cyclists.",
">\n\nI don’t mind normal, law-abiding cyclists at all. I just despise the ones that think they can choose whether to act like a car or pedestrian whenever they feel like it. Or worse, they don’t know the actual laws but think they are special just because they are riding a bike.",
">\n\nSometimes I feel like I am the only one watching out for pedestrians. For example when there's a crosswalk coming up that goes over the bike path and there's someone waiting, I always yield and the person waiting is often surprised since most people on bicycles just carry on. So not all cyclists are like that."
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I once almost got hit by a cyclist who failed to stop at a stop sign
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[
"I road cycled for years, I always followed the street rules. Always. Red light means red light. \nI have so many cycling friends who get into accidents and other conflicts with drivers, and yet they think it’s stupid to stop at a red light. They just don’t connect these two things",
">\n\nMost bikers I encounter are complete idiots. Like I'd be driving normally and out of nowhere comes a biker on a crosswalk in full speed. Now, I appreciate bikers who actually stop and make eye contact with me as I'm driving towards the crosswalk but man, it's either that or the biker almost dies because I have no time to brake.\nAnd what's up with all the bikers going like 5 kmh IN THE MIDDLE of a road when there's a dedicated sidewalk for bikers right next to them? Drives me insane.",
">\n\nIt seems like most bikers because of observation bias.\nIf you follow the rules as you should, you’re unmemorable.\nAs for the sidewalks - its actually less safe on the sidewalk.",
">\n\nInteresting. Dangerous situations are more valuable to remember, and I remember tons of irresponsible bikers. It is in fact observation bias. But I'm always happy to see those who pay close attention to traffic, and I do remeber some of them aswell.",
">\n\nWell the same goes for driving. How many cars do you remember when they haven’t done anything? But you tend to remember the ones who do something dumb",
">\n\nYeah it can be applied to anything really.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist in one of the most bike-dense cities in the world, I hate cyclists too. If I could avoid getting myself hurt, I’d be ramming at least ten of them a day just to teach a lesson about ignoring rules and common sense.",
">\n\nAmsterdam? Copenhagen?",
">\n\nCopenhagen. It’s a wonderful bike city but the people are incredibly self-centered.",
">\n\nI had high expectations from cyclists when I first visited the city, after all it is heralded as a cycling paradise and, well, let’s say it looked a lot more like the rest of the world and mainly because of the personal behavior of cyclists.\nMy local friend justified it, stating that it’s because danish are more temperamental than all other Scandinavians: an explanation that I really didn’t know what to do with…",
">\n\nIf “temperamental” means “a bunch of egotistical [insert unflattering body part]”, he’s right.",
">\n\nYou make it sound like a war zone. I live in Copenhagen and most of the time biking around the city is very pleasant. Except for the food delivery scooters, they can 🤬 off.",
">\n\nI guess it depends on how often and where you’re going. If you have places to be each and every day and want to get there effectively, people ignoring general rules and courtesies of the road are a pain. If you’re one of the types listening to podcasts with a latte in one hand and a phone in the other just trudging along, it’s probably fine.",
">\n\nSame! I love walking. Where I live on popular trails, there are bike lanes, but the cyclists will just ride wherever they. They don’t care and won’t let you know they’re coming. They’ll get pissy if you don’t just automatically know they’re coming up from behind you. If you do much as step foot in the bike lane, they get mad, but have no problems riding side by side outside the bike lane.",
">\n\nSame here! So much for my pleasant walk on the beautiful Trail. They sneak up and when they're almost on top of me, a loud voice yells \"On your left!\" They startle the shit out of me and cause me to jump sky high! 😡",
">\n\nIt’s literally the law to say that. This thread is all about hating them no matter if they follow the law or not.",
">\n\nIs it possible to do that without sneaking up on them and startling the shit out of them by yelling real loud? And then cutting is close to them as you possibly can without hitting them?",
">\n\nHello. \nMy useless comment to this post is here :D\nSo, i work in the accidents department of a big insurance company. My country is very strickt about the road rules, meaning:\nOur company estimates (is this the right word?) that around 82% of accidents involving cyclists, are to blame on the cyclist. Since there are expecific places on the road for you to ride your bike, even if it's not a bike lane.\nI remember a case where 3 dudes were just cycling, outside of town and they were literally on the middle of the road. the place where they were is full of curves and has very little visibility, so they were riding side by side, middle of the road, comes a car, hits not one, but the 3 of them because they scared the person and she just swerved the car.\nThey sued her and us (insurance) 2 times. Lost both and had to pay for all damage done on the car by their own bodys",
">\n\nThis sounds like something that happened near by my home town, are you in Ontario?",
">\n\nno XD portugal",
">\n\nGod its so much worse that it's happened in multiple places.\nIn ours I think the driver killed one of the cyclists, then sued the family for emotional damage",
">\n\nMy biggest gripe about cyclists is that there is always some danger when you encounter them on the road, either as a pedestrian or motorist. Now, part of it isn’t their fault. At least here in the US, not much of the infrastructure is made for bicycles. But cyclists are constantly breaking the rules of the road (or sidewalk) to get where they’re going faster. Blowing red lights, leaving the bike lane to use the sidewalk, splitting lanes. I always clench a little when I approach one, wondering if this is the day I can’t get out of the way.",
">\n\nWe have that same problem, but then a million times worse, because I live in The Netherlands. You probably know about our proud cycling culture (the Amsterdam stereotype). And yes, cyclists here are just as bad as the ones you describe, but there’s a lot more of them here. And oh yeah, traffic laws are almost always in their favor.",
">\n\nI found driving in the towns of the Netherlands so hard. Not just because I was on the wrong side of the road 😉 but because I just wasn’t used to sooo many cyclists coming from all directions, always faster than me and passing on both sides. Even as I was signalling to leave a roundabout at one point about three cyclists rode past on the inside. I really struggled to keep up with them all, which of course means I drove slower and thus even more bikes passed me!",
">\n\nYes that is of course very difficult, however as a Dutchman I’m used to cyclists, so of course we struggle a lot less. But that doesn’t take away from the fact that cyclists do cause a lot of issues because of their careless behavior, and because as drivers we have to accommodate them. That one sided ‘deal’ that we have makes it very difficult to deal with them.\nAll in all I’m happy we have so many cyclists as it’s good for the environment. But the utopian mindset of cyclists being a gift to the world is just stupid. Especially when you consider that mostly Americans who drive on wide open roads with barely any cyclists around are the ones praising cyclists in my country all the time. Also, cyclists annoy the hell out of pedestrians as well, so it’s not just about motorists.",
">\n\nCyclists treat red lights like stop signs and stop signs like yield signs (at best). They’re not allowed on sidewalks but do it anyway. Fuckin hate cyclists.",
">\n\nEverything you said is completely legal in Denver and sidewalks are illegal , but drivers constantly scream at cyclists to ride there",
">\n\nCyclist can roll stop signs and run red lights in Denver? What the fuck?",
">\n\nI’d have no problem if cyclist had respect for other road users. where I live there are cycle lanes, but most cyclists are on the road or pavements, they ignore red lights etc. \nIf you want to cycle please make it’s safe for yourself and others around you.",
">\n\nExactly my thoughts",
">\n\nHonestly, selfish assholes exist everywhere but a selfish asshole on a bicycle does a lot less damage than a selfish asshole in a car. \nEDIT: OP's also downvoting everyone who disagrees with him, just fyi.",
">\n\nAs a pedestrian, I hate everyone who's not a pedestrian... And some pedestrians too.",
">\n\nThere's a reason so many cyclists die each year, they all seem to pick and choose which laws they want to follow. Its always safer to assume they'll do whatever they want and everyone else needs to adapt to them.",
">\n\nAs a driver downtown, I don't worry at all about pedestrians at intersections, I can turn my head and assume they will be maybe five feet closer to my car when I look back, (and I trust they won't sprint towards me when I look away, at their own peril), but bikes, they ride so fast, that in the short time I turn my head to check for oncoming traffic, a bike could materialize right beside / infront me, and I risk hitting them or them hitting the side of my car. And that's even in their designated bike lane, that I have to pass through to clear the intersection. And if I drive into a ped at three miles per hour, they will just hit my hood with their fist and call me a stupid motherfucker, or whatever makes them feel justice was served, but if I bump the bike, it will be a big crash, the bicyclist will be all curled up in a ball on the ground, I'll be the bad guy in the eyes of the law and anyone nearby, and I'll probably be late as fuck to wherever it is I'm trying to go to.",
">\n\nI skateboard so I guess I'm good",
">\n\nJust don’t inconvenience narcissistic car drivers by a few seconds.",
">\n\nI think everyone hates cyclists. Cyclists included.",
">\n\nAs a driver, I hate you both",
">\n\nPedestrians are literally the worst. Anyone who has to walk more than 20 feet a day and not to their car are complete losers, and should be jailed on site.",
">\n\nOK, I think that's a bit extreme. But hey, if you're running for public office I'll vote for you. \nI do have to wonder anytime I see someone that I know has the mental faculties to drive who is walking. Usually assume too many DUI's.",
">\n\nr/fuckcars ripping out their hair rn",
">\n\nNot unpopular.\n Everyone hates cyclists.",
">\n\nI casually cycle in the summer. If I'm on a trail, I'll slow down and ring my bell if I see pedestrians, or stop and dismount if there's a lot of people or they don't notice me. Especially on the narrow trails in this woodlot I sometimes go to. \nThe problem is a lot of cyclists, especially in North America, but perhaps other places, just aren't respectful of others. They demand car drivers \"share the road\", but then ride in huge packs, lane split, don't signal turns, run stop signs and red lights, weave in and out of traffic, boot up busy sidewalks at 15-20mph, refuse to use provided bike lanes, etc. There's like a gross sense of entitlement in the cycling community. Dude, you're still a vehicle. There's rules that apply to you, just like there are for cars and motorcycles. Big problem is difficulty/lack of enforcement. Cops have to catch them in the act. Even then they're slippery devils since they're usually more mobile than a cruiser or beat cop on foot. This is why I support plating bikes to make them easily identifiable.",
">\n\n\nThere's like a gross sense of entitlement in the cycling community. Dude, you're still a vehicle. There's rules that apply to you, just like there are for cars and motorcycles.\n\nThat is the problem right there. They want to be treated equal to car owners, yet they do not abide by traffic rules, hence all the accidents.",
">\n\nAs a driver, I concur.",
">\n\nI hate bikers on trails. They're supposed to stop and let hikers by but they never do. They go by so freakin' fast too. It's like come on now!",
">\n\nAs a mostly former cyclist, I often hated cyclists too. Mostly, because so many cyclist are just competitive asshats that suck the pleasure out of their own bike ride by making everything about speed. Like, heaven forbid they have to slow and yield to anyone.\nOnce, I was riding my bicycle with my young daughter on a bike path in the city. A couple cyclist came up and got all pissy at us, saying we need to be out of the cycle lane because we were going too slow and my 8 year old kid wasn't keeping to a narrow lane. It was so hostile - my kid started crying.\nBut that is just so typical, all the time. I've gotten yelled out a few times when I made a full, foot down stop at a redlight because the cyclist behind me was expecting me to either run the redlight or at least go into the crosswalk and dance around (like they do) until it went green. I remember nearly getting run over by cyclists all the time, and yelled at if I was going too slow.\nThat being said, we need to do 100,000 x more in the US towards making bike paths, protected bike lanes, etc., because cyling is a truly great way to get around and I miss it. I just don't miss the self-centered asshats that dominate the cycling community.",
">\n\nThis!",
">\n\nI’ve nothing against cyclists as a group. I prefer to hate all people who do stupid things whether they’re in cars, on bikes or walking. Went to pick my daughter up tonight and counted six cyclists in the dark wearing all black with no lights at all plus one with a light so weak I didn’t see it until I was nearly past him. Tonight it was dumb cyclists, but tomorrow it might be idiots in cars. Hate the idiots not the method of transportation.",
">\n\nTrue !",
">\n\nOMG YES !! I completely agree. Every time i tried to explain this to a friend, they would always look at me like I am crazy for thinking such a thing. But as I walk for 45 minutes every days, it became a reality you can't ignore... I can't count how many times I nearly got hit by a cyclist, it happens every other week. I am starting to think that cyclists should have to go through a \"course\" to learn the basics of using the streets x)\n(Sorry for mistakes, not native here 'x) )",
">\n\nThis is my story lol..",
">\n\nYes, and it also is my personal experience, which is why I posted this..?",
">\n\nYes I totally agree. Just saying \"that's my life\" :) happening in Brussels tho",
">\n\nMy bad x) welp France here, it amazes me in a really bad way how this seems to be such a common phenomenon literaly EVERYWHERE",
">\n\nJ'ai roulé en vélo à Paris et laisse tomber l'enfer que c'était. J'avais l'impression d'avancer avec des oies qui insultaient tout le monde. BAa bAAA BAaaAa !!! \nLe problème c'est que plus les gens sont stressés (même les piétons... Genre dans le metro) plus ils se haïssent et ce matin j'avais la haine sur les vélos.. en vrai j'ai la haine sur tous les citadins haha",
">\n\nas a cyclist I hate everyone",
">\n\nSame, I see posts like this where people tell us to ride on the sidewalk when it’s illegal. \nThey assume we don’t walk anywhere, drive, etc like we are essentially subhuman for doing exercise.\nThey tell us to ride closer to the right side of the road so we get hit by a car door. \nThey’re mad that we give a verbal signal that we’re coming up on the left even though that’s the law. \nnow that I’m in Colorado I’m getting yelled at for the Idaho stop, which is completely legal. We yield to stop signs and temporarily stop at red light only till it’s clear. It’s all to REDUCE CAR TRAFFIC.\nSo far I’ve had family members die from hit and runs and drunk drivers, but somehow cyclists are the most dangerous thing on the road today.\nWhat is this really about?",
">\n\nI loathe cyclists. Selfish, entitled lycra lunatics.",
">\n\nBe honest, do you realize that it's possible to ride a bicycle and not be selfish, or entitled, or a lunatic, or not wear lycra?",
">\n\nThis thread is such a circlejerk, it's ridiculous.",
">\n\nThat's what I'm here for",
">\n\nIt's because cycling isn't regulated like motor vehicles are but they still get on the roads unlike pedestrians. So they don't have knowledge on the rules of the road that drivers have.\nThere's also some sort of hypocrisy they have where they believe drivers should give way to them because bikes are more vulnerable than cars while expecting pedestrians to give way to them because they're moving faster.",
">\n\n\nSo they don't have knowledge on the rules of the road\n\nPlenty do. Many cyclists also are automobilists. They just feel like they're exempted from respecting trafic rules because it's tiring to stop and go on a bike and they're slower an lighter than cars.",
">\n\nSure you got hit by a truck, but at least you managed to save yourself a little time and avoid waiting for a few seconds. Is what I'd say if they didn't then end up in the hospital",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists, as it should be.",
">\n\nCyclists shouldn’t be on sidewalks",
">\n\nI also cringe a lot when I see the international Reddit community constantly praise us Dutch people for our biking culture. People have no idea how many traffic accidents we get that could have been avoided if we didn’t have cyclists EVERYWHERE who are barely aware of the traffic rules that also apply to them.\nPeople have no idea about how cyclists are almost always right according to our traffic laws, which makes them much more reckless. They cause millions of dollars of damage to cars (and pedestrians) each year, and barely ever face consequences for their irresponsible and reckless behavior in traffic.\nPeople don’t see how cyclists often block traffic because they like to cycle next to each other in pairs, and if you honk they get angry and sometimes even aggressive and try to break your side mirror if they feel like it.\nMany intersections have bicycle lanes that you need to check when making a turn when driving, even though the intersection is already super busy with lots of cars. And guess what, cyclists still ride around fast and recklessly and making sure you don’t hit another car, cyclist AND pedestrian is all the job of one single driver.\nSo all in all, people from countries where driving is a relatively easy and chill thing to do, praise cycling culture in other countries. Try to drive here in busy traffic with thousands of cars AND (RECKLESS) CYCLISTS on the road and then tell me what it’s like.",
">\n\nIt would be much easier to sympathize with cars drivers if they did not need like 60% of the entire transit space leaving cyclists and pedestrians very little.\n\neven though the intersection is already super busy with lots of cars\n\nOfc, because cars are so large and need so much space.",
">\n\nI get that, but why is that my fault? I don’t do the city planning. Besides, cars are much larger than bicycles, so doesn’t it make sense there’s more space needed for cars than for bicycles?\nBut even then, if you don’t want to have any sympathy for motorists, because city planners give them more space than others, that’s just weird. It’s not the motorist’s fault.",
">\n\n\ndoesn’t it make sense there’s more space needed for cars than for bicycles?\n\nWhy a valuable and scarce resource such as the public space in cities should be used predominantly to benefit car users while barring everyone else? \nI just find it much harder to sympathize with the privileged group.",
">\n\nBecause people need to be able to go from A to B?",
">\n\nSo do pedestrians/public transport users/cyclists. But they don't require so much space per person.",
">\n\nWell in The Netherlands public transportation takes up an enormous amount of space and cyclists have their own dedicated lanes almost everywhere. Also motorists have to give public transportation space as we usually have to stop for trams and buses to pass, according to traffic rules. Guess who doesn’t often follow those rules: cyclists.\nHowever, public transportation itself is super busy and unbelievably expensive in The Netherlands. It costs more than 20 Euros to travel ~70 kilometers. That’s why a lot of people still prefer to have a car, and cars simply need infrastructure.\nSo I don’t really get your point. Cars, bicycles and public transportation all get a fair portion of the space that’s available.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist, i hate pedestrians. Here in Germany, there is bike lanes, one part for bikes and one for pedestrians on traffic lights... etc. But the pedestrians just ignore them, form \"walls\" of people blocking the bike lane, dont look while crossing the bike lane. Even cars repect us more than you.",
">\n\nThis I understand. Experienced the same in Denmark",
">\n\nClaaaaaarksoooooonnnnn",
">\n\nIdk about other places but here cyclists are constantly breaking the law and never getting ticketed for it. It makes no sense to me. I don’t think it’d make a huge difference but I do think some cyclists would think twice about disregarding the rules if those rules were actually enforced.",
">\n\nI get the sentiment. My feeling is the root cause is they don’t have their own infrastructure. Cars and peds do. So cyclists are always forced into a non ideal path. \nI’m aware they have rights to the road but cars and bikes really struggle to share an infrastructure clearly made for cars. \nSo if we invest in cycling infrastructure everyone would probably be happier.",
">\n\ndoubt it. In my city there is an asphalt bike path for miles that is like 8 feet wide. Smooth. No stop signs. Do they use it? nope they get their collective ass out on the street and I honestly don't have a clue why.\nIt defies logic. Safter, smooth, not cars/trunks, etc. Here they are out on the street just fiddle farting down a 45 mph road like they own it with a bike path 15 feet away with no one on it. The last guy I asked said \"It is my road as well you know\" that I ran up on while I was at a crossing while riding on the path myself. I just gave up trying to understand. Someone dies on that road every couple of months from bike or pedestrian strike with a vehicle. It was the whole reason they built the path....",
">\n\nWell in my experience there are 2 thing going on there.\na) Often bikers will avoid the path because peds often share or walk across those paths and their speed is closer to that of a car than a ped or \nb) If they are commuting...the path likely isn't going exactly where they need to.\nAs to your specific scenario I don't doubt there are bikers that are hard headed and stubborn. I know a few of those. But generally I do bikers using the infrastructure where we have built it.",
">\n\nThere's an accident here involving @ car running over a cyclist who crossed a red traffic light. And guess who take the blame?",
">\n\nLaughs in being dutch",
">\n\nIt is regrettable that a handful of asshole cyclists ruins everyone’s opinion of us. It really undermines the support needed to improve infrastructure for cycling. \nIf it is any help, when i ring my bell, I am doing so to avoid the alternatives of either yelling a warning or startling people. I normally exit the path and pass on the grass. I would say that most cyclist are the same. I don’t want you to get out of the way, I want you to know I am there. \nBut it only takes a couple assholes that think they own the path or the street. I have a cousin like this and it is difficult to convince him his is wrong and is putting himself and others in danger.",
">\n\nI think the a-holes are people that are only on a bike because it's the easiest thing for them, living where they do. You and those like you are on the bike because you love cycling.",
">\n\nI live in Portland, OR, and the cyclists here are so fucking rude and entitled.",
">\n\nI live in not-Portland OR and visited once. I biked down the road. Could not believe how nice everyone was to me. Probably because they could tell I’m an outsider.",
">\n\nI meant how they treat everyone else who isn't on a bike, tbh.",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists and it's for a simple reason. They think they can do whatever the hell they want. They switch between a pedestrian, a cyclist and a vehicle deciding on the fly whatever rules they feel like following with no accountability. \nOne minute they are skipping traffic, then they are deciding to cross at a crosswalk instead of following traffic. And the sidewalks are bike lanes if that's more convenient.",
">\n\nI just get annoyed because they will ride double wide on a tight street, forcing you to go 60mph in a 45, on the opposite side of traffic, risking a head on collision. And yea, you have to do that, because otherwise cars behind you will start driving aggressive as well as the fact that your expecting all the cars to go at a bikes speed on the road.",
">\n\nThat's because every country except for the Netherlands and Denmark have shit bicycle infrastructure.",
">\n\nI civilised countries we have cycling paths and cycling on the street is also possible as drivers aren't insane. So this seems rather like a problem of poor urban planning than cyclists in general.",
">\n\nWhere I live the cyclists just refuse to take the bikelane and either block the traffic because the rather use the street or they decide to use the pedestrian side of the sidewalk. The frickin bikelane is as big as the pedestrian one. There is no excuse not to use it and they still won't! One of them almost hit me if I hadn't dodge it. If the cyclist only drove a few inches to the left there would have been a bikelane and it wouldn't happened. Of course the person didn't apologize and just cursed at me.",
">\n\nBike gutters are awful and less safe than taking the lane. Assholes park in the bike lanes ALL THE TIME. Plus no one ever looks behind them when getting out pf their car so getting smacked by a door is a real danger. Drivers are entitled but it’s not their fault it’s the way we’ve built society to allow and expect them to be.\nETA: next time you’re driving around take a count how many people you see pulled over or parked in a bike gutter.",
">\n\nCompletely agree - I was ran over almost 3 times in Berlin. \nAnd every single time I checked before crossing - but they just suddenly spawned right in the way",
">\n\nDid you cross at a designated crosswalk? As a cyclist the amount of times people just randomly meander across an active street instead of going to the zebra/lollipop crossing, and then get angry at me when I have to swerve out the way/ brake is comical.",
">\n\nMan, y'all are sad people. \n\"Get off the road!\" Okay, now we are on the sidewalk. \n\"Get off the sidewalk!\" Back in the road again. \n\"They need to ring their bells so we know they're coming! Btw I hate it when they ring their bells so I know they're coming.\"",
">\n\nI hate cyclists like that. I don’t have a car so my bike is my main source of transportation and I don’t ride like that. So far, from what I’ve noticed in my area, I’m the only one that follows the damn rules in my city xD",
">\n\nNo matter where you are and who you are… driver or walker, scooter or flyer… we ALL hate cyclists.",
">\n\nI feel ya. The only thing I hate more than cyclists is electric scooters.",
">\n\nCompletely agree! A cycling license (similar to driving) should be required. Far too many cyclist who doesn’t know (and those who don’t just give a F) about traffic rules.",
">\n\nI completely agree! Cyclists have a lot of rights on the roads, and are very vocal about them, but think they can do whatever the fuck they want at roundabouts and pedestrian crossings.",
">\n\nIt just fascinates me how anyone can walk or drive through a city and genuinely think that bicycles are the problem. Look around you at every turn there are cars jamming the roads. Parked blocking things. Blocking pavements. Driving aggressively. Speeding. Failing to stop. Polluting the air. If they hit you, you are seriously injured or dead. This happens in the thousands. The city absolutely revolves around them.",
">\n\nYou are 100% right. Except I didn't say bicycles are the problem. I said i hate them. I said fuck cars too. I also said bicycles are one of the best alternative for trafic jam in cities.\nCities in Europe weren't made for cars nor bikes. So the problem is the fucking lazy greedy people who decide how to spend our tax money. The problem is people thinking they are all alone on the street. The problem is how stressed everybody is and how it become dangerous.\nNot because I hate how cyclists take revenge from drivers bullies to pedestrians makes me hate a transportation model itself.",
">\n\nIt just seems odd that people can really harp on about cyclists when they are such a trivial issue. Posts like this can get hundreds of replies. People tend to make excuses about cars.",
">\n\nYou just insulted a whole country.",
">\n\nThe Netherlands? It's ok",
">\n\nOk",
">\n\nI judge the actions of the individual not the mode of transport. I find it produces more accurate results.",
">\n\nApparently \"individuals alone are responsible for their own actions\" is the real unpopular opinion here.",
">\n\nIndeed 😀",
">\n\nAs a car driver I also hate cyclists. Saw one on a 45mph the other day despite there being a sidewalk AND a bikelane",
">\n\n45 mph isn't a speed for bike lane or sidewalk. Street is",
">\n\nas a cyclist, I hate pedestrians.\nMy city put in these nice protected bicycle lanes so bikes don't have to ride inches from cars, and boy don't those pedestrians just LOVE using the bike lane as a queuing up spot for the crosswalks. it's just so nice and convenient to get 5 more feet closer to your goal, isn't it? Those bicycles can stop and wait...and feel free to swear at them like THEY are the ones in the wrong.\nBicycles and pedestrians are natural enemies, that's never going to change. There can be only one.",
">\n\nLET'S END THIS NOW !!!!!",
">\n\nanyplace but Holy Ground.",
">\n\ndon't blame all bicyclists for the shitty ones.\nthat would be like saying every person who drives a car is an asshole. or every person who walks on the sidewalk is an asshole.\nsome people are good at getting around. other people are jerks. don't blame everyone for the actions of a small subset of people.",
">\n\nI mean, isn’t that the sentiment over that the popular sub r/fuckcars? The generalization is already being perpetuated from cyclists and “urbanists” in their war against cars.",
">\n\nNot really. That sub mostly hates the focus on cars when designing infrastructure, as well as the forced dependency on cars in our modern world. Not individual drivers.",
">\n\nSure about that? It’s mostly just a bitch-fest about driver errors to further their political agenda.",
">\n\nYea, I'm pretty sure.",
">\n\nReally weird way to get there if that’s the case. Alienating a large portion of the population (car drivers, car riders, people that depend on vehicles for the delivery of goods and services) is not how you get them on your side.",
">\n\nI don't think that's their goal in the first place. It's just a reddit sub.",
">\n\nEspecially when they have a stupid fucking bell and say \"on the left\" then proceed to be on the right side of the trail running into you",
">\n\nHahahha \"is he coming on the left or should i go on the lef...\" BANG!!",
">\n\nGF lives in a college town. It’s as if there’s some kinda fuckin’ death wish among the student cycling population",
">\n\nAs a [insert anyone, including cyclist], I hate cyclists.",
">\n\nPeople don't wanna hear it when it comes from automobilists because \"gngn cars are more dangerous and drivers are entitled\" but reality is cyclists are just the worst. Whether I'm on foot, driving a car, or riding a bicycle myself, cyclists are always always the ones being absolute public hazards. Heck, when I'm on my bike and stop at the stop sign on a cycle lane to let the cars go, they look at me as if I'm jesus or something. They even try to let me pass first because of how used they are to cyclists who just can't be bothered to respect the damn stop sign.",
">\n\nThe problem isn't the cyclists here, it's the lacking infrastructure.",
">\n\nWe shouldn't have to build infrastructure so people can partake in recreation. I find that comment extremely arrogant. Why on earth do cyclists deserve to have their recreation glorified and catered to??",
">\n\nRecreation? Ah yes, cycling is only for recreation.",
">\n\nWell, where I live that I'd the ONLY purpose. I'm 17 miles from any city municipality. Nobody is biking here to go to the grocery store or work.",
">\n\nNot everything is about you personally.",
">\n\nTo me, it is, and should be. My concern is around how cyclists inconvenience me while I'm trying to be a productive member of society. I feel like that's a fair critique.",
">\n\nYou are mad that cyclists inconvenience you yet you reject dedicated infrastructure as a solution. Do you think cyclists should be banned off the road completely?",
">\n\nThe real issue here is lacking cycling infrastructure.",
">\n\nDefinitely a major issue.\nBut part of the issue is definitely cyclists who prioritize their own speed over the safety and welfare of everyone around them. It's like they are all BMW drivers, deep down, and just don't want to yield to or slow down for anyone.",
">\n\nI'm sure there are, assholes exist in all vehicle types.",
">\n\nCyclists know thar neither the pavement nor the road are theirs because motorists and pedestrians like you are both screaming at them all the time. And I swear you'd be angrier if they didn't give a polite warning that they're coming toward you. \nCyclists who breeze through crossings instead of stopping are a minority, much like cyclists are a minority in general, and you can't judge an entire group that aren't adequately represented",
">\n\nFuck traveling in general",
">\n\nYa. Where are our transporters! \nSorry had to go full nerd.",
">\n\nI see posts like this constantly. It blows my mind people can just choose one thing that is so insignificant to scapegoat. \nThey assume people on bikes don’t also walk, drive, etc like we are essentially subhuman for doing exercise / running errands in this way because they are inconvenienced for a few seconds. You realize we are human like you , right?\nPeople tell us to ride bicycles on the sidewalk when it’s illegal while others say not too. It’s usually against the law.\nThey tell us to ride closer to the right side of the road , so we get hit by a car door and yelled at again. \nThey’re mad that we give a verbal signal that we’re coming up on the left even though that’s the law. \nNow that I’m in Colorado I’m getting yelled at for the Idaho stop, which is completely legal. We yield to stop signs and temporarily stop at red lights only if it’s clear. It’s all to REDUCE CAR TRAFFIC. \nKeep in mind we are riding bicycles which in its own right REDUCES CAR TRAFFIC. \n80% of car trips are within 3 miles from your house. Everyone that rides a bike keeps you from being stuck behind them in traffic for longer then the 20 seconds you’re currently inconvenienced. It’s also mean parking closer to the front door of a shop. \nSo far I’ve had family members die from hit and runs and drunk drivers, but somehow cyclists are the most dangerous thing on the road today?! It’s not adding up.\nWhat is this really about?",
">\n\nI'm sorry for your losses. I never said bikers are the most dangerous things on the road. Saying this would be stupid. The problem in my city is the lack of respect from cyclists to pedestrians in a general way. I'm not even talking about drivers against EVERYTHING ON THE STREET.",
">\n\nI go out of my way to be respectful to everybody, and I’ve had nothing but kindness and respect from other cyclists .\nYou wanna blame everybody on a bicycle for all your problems when it’s really just about a few people who disrespected you. \nCyclists are drivers, walkers, etc. do they just jump on a bicycle and instantly become disrespectful?\nStill doesn’t make any logical sense.",
">\n\nDude you just don't get it.. i understand biking is your life.. but come on.\nI use to bike 40km per day to work. \nI don't have problems with people jumping on bikes. I simply hate the ones that are disrespectful.\nIs it too hard to understand? Just me venting coz I feel like a lot of bikers think they are on top of the citizen pyramid? \nI'm not venting about the system here, nor about cars.. just about some (yes some) bikers.\nAnd please there is no need to beg for upvotes on fuckcars how old are you?",
">\n\nI bet your fat.",
">\n\nOf course I fart !",
">\n\nTo you yours and to mine mine; I hate car users and their ilk who are filled with wonton waste and hate for all else who dare travel near them. I stop at all lights, halt for all signs, use a mirror, lights, and hand signals, pull over for cars coming my way so long as there is any room, and use what little biking infrastructure is available to me.\nMy taxes are waste and paid in folly for they assuredly go in portion to your reckless use of a powerful machine and not to my own reckless use of a small self-propelled stick on two wheels to separate lanes and keep them maintained. No, no, I must settle for the gutter and cry glee for that and be ashamed to move to the sidewalk when it suddenly ends and continues a block later down the road. \nFuck your car, your roads, and your selfish desire to pave the world and create cities with 60% of their coverage dedicated to driving a car, parking a car, and separating the world into places for cars and otherwise. You who drive faster and faster, in bigger and bigger cars. I loath you as you loath mine.",
">\n\nI wouldn’t hate cyclists if they didn’t act like road laws don’t apply to em in the city where I live. I’ve seen cyclists not even stop at red lights even with an almost full intersection, and ride the wrong way down one ways.\nEdit: I do wish the city where I live had more bike lanes but yeah.",
">\n\nIf you're going to hate someone, maybe hate the people actually doing those things.\nIf I see someone on a bike rush through a short break on a red light in an otherwise busy intersection, I shake my head and think they are an idiot. I think this while waiting for the light to turn green on my bike.\nSimilarly, when a car illegally stops in a bike lane (which happens ALL THE TIME by the way), I don't turn around and blame the cars moving along legally in the adjacent lane.",
">\n\nPedestrian are the worst.\nWhen i started using bicicle I was very polite: brake, ring, ask for permission. And what the large amount of people do? Ignore u, watch u in the eyes and take a step in the fucking middle of the trail (many many times! for real!), shout at you just because u exist. So.... At some point is fuck you all, I'm coming go out of the way. That's it",
">\n\n\nI will never drive nor park on a bike lane, always look into the mirror to be careful of one of you monkeys. So why can't you be careful when us peasants are walking?\n\nThis is dumb. Obviously there are plenty of cyclists who are careful and courteous about your safety. That's part of what a bell or \"watch out!\" (generally \"On your left\") is doing for you. And just because you are courteous to them doesn't mean everyone is. Is every driver a douchebag just because some of them crowd cyclists when and where the cyclist has the right to the road? No.",
">\n\nThe difference here is that generally car drivers are going to be held accountable for bad driving. This is in the form of dash cams, ANPR and red light cameras which catch drivers doing bad things and they can receive a fine or points on their licence. Cyclists currently can't be held accountable if they jump red lights or hit a car or pedestrian as there isn't anything that helps identify them. This is a big issue in cities. I live and work in London and see many cyclists jumping red lights and weaving around pedestrians crossing. Cars can't do this as most traffic lights have red light cameras that would catch this.\nDrivers as a collective (including me) are in no way perfect or even held to account 100% of the time, but I believe we need a system for cyclists to be held accountable too",
">\n\nYour way of thinking, while perfectly rational and natural, is outdated. Traffic law enforcement, like any other law enforcement, is less about the enforcement, and more about the prevention. Where I live, speed and red light cameras are clearly marked ahead so that the people who'd normally break the law follow it instead, making punishment unnecessary. \nSame could be done with cyclists. Sure, you could make every cyclist install a license plate, require a \"cycling license\", or install expensive cameras with facial identification software, but how about just make it so cyclists aren't incentivised to break the law in the first place? \nMake more useful cycling infrastructure, and more cyclists will use it. Make that infrastructure intersect with foot and motor traffic more safely and less often, and less collisions will happen.",
">\n\nI completely understand your point. However, a lot of money has gone into my local area for cycling infrastructure that most cyclists are using, but many are still choosing to break the rules as the rules are inconvenient. The infrastructure is not enough, there needs to be an incentive NOT to break the rules.\nIf you take a look at Chiswick High Road in London, England. They have created segregated cycle lanes from the traffic. These cycle lanes have their own lights and crossings to keep them safe from cars. However many cyclists just ignore the lights and just keep going into pedestrians. There is no punishment for them doing this as they can't be tracked. Personally I think every cyclist should have to register their bike (make it free to help encourage this) and then a new form of ANPR used to also catch cyclists in the act",
">\n\nPersonally I'd have no problem registering my bike for free, especially if I could use that same registration if it gets stolen, but registering something as mechanically simple and cheap as a bicycle is, in my opinion difficult if not impossible to do without making the bike mechanically complex and expensive, at which point most people would just switch to scooters.\nI don't live in London, but from what I've heard, by far the biggest threat in the city is still motorized traffic, namely cars and lorries, and so until that problem is no longer a problem, I wouldn't really do anything special about bikes. Maybe put some undercover bike cops near the most dangerous bike path/lane intersections to catch a few offenders and make an example out of them, but that's about it.",
">\n\nMost cars I’ve driven came equipped with brakes and a steering wheel. I don’t see the problem",
">\n\nA common take and a stupid one.\nThere are good and bad drivers, pedestrians, and cyclists. Hating any of them as a group because some of them do bad things is just dumb.",
">\n\nIf you followed the laws and stayed out of the bike lane as a pedestrian there would be no problem.",
">\n\nIf bicyclists followed the laws and stopped ignoring street signs/traffic lights there would be no problem.",
">\n\nDon’t see how this address the problem with pedestrians in bike lanes.",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Drivers pedestrians other cyclists. They're a scourge.",
">\n\nEvery word of this is pure wisdom.",
">\n\nAs a car driver, I too hate cyclists.\nI don't care who has 'right of way'. I'm in a car, you're not. If we collide, regardless of fault, you're the one that dies.\nDo you really want to die on the hill that says \"i can bike on the rode b/c it's legal\"?\nI might be in jail, but you're still dead.\nBikes don't belong on public roads. Unless there's a bike lane - aka, a pathway designed specifically for bikers.\nIt's FAR SAFER to bike on the sidewalk.",
">\n\nBe careful you’ll anger r/fuckcars",
">\n\nI recently got a bike in Japan and there isn't any room on the street to ride my bike. Most people are fine when I'm on the sidewalk, however, the worst ones are groups of 2 or more who try and take up as much space as possible allowing nobody to pass. Same with the people who constantly switch between the left and right side of the sidewalk. It's really annoying to see how little spacial awareness they have.",
">\n\nCyclists on the road don’t have to pass the same test as vehicles on the road, which is why they are so bad. If there was a test in order to cycle on the road then i think it would be alot better",
">\n\nWhy do you hate all cyclists when only some of them are rude/dangerous?",
">\n\nCope hehe",
">\n\nIt's the powered vehicles that kill most pedestrians.\nBut, sure, cyclists blahblah...",
">\n\nAs an occasional cyclist, I don't like you either.",
">\n\nI biked everywhere.....when I was a child. I'm an adult now and have an automobile. They are pretty neat.",
">\n\nWhen I used to have to walk to work I’d walk on the sidewalk and listen to music and one time this guy zipped right by me yelling almost knocking me over and flipped me off?? They act like they don’t have breaks lmao",
">\n\nholy smokes! glad you're ok",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Even cyclists.",
">\n\nAnd here i thought why the f pediatrician hate cyclists",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Even other cyclists.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist this thread is hilarious",
">\n\nAnyone got recommendations for how to be a nice, considerate cyclist besides being careful and non-entitled? I plan on starting when it gets warm outside.",
">\n\nNot unpopular",
">\n\nWhen I drive to work, I obey most of the rules. I just can't drive on some roads. That would either kill me at some point or I'd slow down a whole 60 km/h lane that's packed with traffic. When riding on the sidewalk, I always stop or get off my bike if it gets too crowded or the sidewalk narrows. But when no one is around I just keep driving normally, just slower than usual. I try to stay alert at all times and let everyone pass because I know I'm wrong here.\nAt one point there is a one-way street I'm not allowed to drive on, but as my alternatives are the same 60km/h road (but now also with rails) or a crowded sidewalk, I prefer the one-way street with maybe 4 cars per hour that I can easily avoid. After that there is finally a bike path until I get to work. There would be a legal route, but it would take twice, if not triple, the time.\nI also hate reckless cyclists. They have already endangered me and are often unfriendly assholes. I just don't have a death wish and don't want to drive a route in an hour if 20 minutes are possible in a safe way (If the brain gets used).",
">\n\nCyclists don’t care because unless they get injured there are no real consequences for their actions.\nI think that any vehicle, with or without any type of motor, should require a license to operate on a public roadway. Road legal bikes need to be held to quality standards, like cars, and should also be registered. If you wish to ride one on a public roadway it should have a number plate on it. You should have to pass a rider’s ed course proving that you know the rules of the road. There should be a test proving that you can control the vehicle and operate it safely, same as a car or motorcycle.",
">\n\nYeah I’ve nearly been run over from behind by cyclists on sidewalks too many times",
">\n\nIdk maybe my town is weird like everwhere on the internet and even in statistics you hear stuff like that but then I haven't really seen any cyclists run red lights ever and as someone who maybe not often but sometimes cycles, the last thing I'd do as a cyclist is run a red light like I don't wanna die?",
">\n\nOnly people that like cyclist.. are probably just other cyclists.",
">\n\nI don’t mind normal, law-abiding cyclists at all. I just despise the ones that think they can choose whether to act like a car or pedestrian whenever they feel like it. Or worse, they don’t know the actual laws but think they are special just because they are riding a bike.",
">\n\nSometimes I feel like I am the only one watching out for pedestrians. For example when there's a crosswalk coming up that goes over the bike path and there's someone waiting, I always yield and the person waiting is often surprised since most people on bicycles just carry on. So not all cyclists are like that.",
">\n\nAs a pedestrian, cyclist and driver, I hate taxis."
] |
>
Cyclist have it both ways which isn’t fair. They can drive on the road AND the sidewalk and use pedestrian crossings when they feel like it. It’s like they have no road rules once on a bike.
On the sidewalk I have to get outta the way? No bikeperson. You shouldn’t even be on the sidewalk in the first place! Maybe if you’re under 10 but otherwise drive your vehicle on the road like all other adults!
|
[
"I road cycled for years, I always followed the street rules. Always. Red light means red light. \nI have so many cycling friends who get into accidents and other conflicts with drivers, and yet they think it’s stupid to stop at a red light. They just don’t connect these two things",
">\n\nMost bikers I encounter are complete idiots. Like I'd be driving normally and out of nowhere comes a biker on a crosswalk in full speed. Now, I appreciate bikers who actually stop and make eye contact with me as I'm driving towards the crosswalk but man, it's either that or the biker almost dies because I have no time to brake.\nAnd what's up with all the bikers going like 5 kmh IN THE MIDDLE of a road when there's a dedicated sidewalk for bikers right next to them? Drives me insane.",
">\n\nIt seems like most bikers because of observation bias.\nIf you follow the rules as you should, you’re unmemorable.\nAs for the sidewalks - its actually less safe on the sidewalk.",
">\n\nInteresting. Dangerous situations are more valuable to remember, and I remember tons of irresponsible bikers. It is in fact observation bias. But I'm always happy to see those who pay close attention to traffic, and I do remeber some of them aswell.",
">\n\nWell the same goes for driving. How many cars do you remember when they haven’t done anything? But you tend to remember the ones who do something dumb",
">\n\nYeah it can be applied to anything really.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist in one of the most bike-dense cities in the world, I hate cyclists too. If I could avoid getting myself hurt, I’d be ramming at least ten of them a day just to teach a lesson about ignoring rules and common sense.",
">\n\nAmsterdam? Copenhagen?",
">\n\nCopenhagen. It’s a wonderful bike city but the people are incredibly self-centered.",
">\n\nI had high expectations from cyclists when I first visited the city, after all it is heralded as a cycling paradise and, well, let’s say it looked a lot more like the rest of the world and mainly because of the personal behavior of cyclists.\nMy local friend justified it, stating that it’s because danish are more temperamental than all other Scandinavians: an explanation that I really didn’t know what to do with…",
">\n\nIf “temperamental” means “a bunch of egotistical [insert unflattering body part]”, he’s right.",
">\n\nYou make it sound like a war zone. I live in Copenhagen and most of the time biking around the city is very pleasant. Except for the food delivery scooters, they can 🤬 off.",
">\n\nI guess it depends on how often and where you’re going. If you have places to be each and every day and want to get there effectively, people ignoring general rules and courtesies of the road are a pain. If you’re one of the types listening to podcasts with a latte in one hand and a phone in the other just trudging along, it’s probably fine.",
">\n\nSame! I love walking. Where I live on popular trails, there are bike lanes, but the cyclists will just ride wherever they. They don’t care and won’t let you know they’re coming. They’ll get pissy if you don’t just automatically know they’re coming up from behind you. If you do much as step foot in the bike lane, they get mad, but have no problems riding side by side outside the bike lane.",
">\n\nSame here! So much for my pleasant walk on the beautiful Trail. They sneak up and when they're almost on top of me, a loud voice yells \"On your left!\" They startle the shit out of me and cause me to jump sky high! 😡",
">\n\nIt’s literally the law to say that. This thread is all about hating them no matter if they follow the law or not.",
">\n\nIs it possible to do that without sneaking up on them and startling the shit out of them by yelling real loud? And then cutting is close to them as you possibly can without hitting them?",
">\n\nHello. \nMy useless comment to this post is here :D\nSo, i work in the accidents department of a big insurance company. My country is very strickt about the road rules, meaning:\nOur company estimates (is this the right word?) that around 82% of accidents involving cyclists, are to blame on the cyclist. Since there are expecific places on the road for you to ride your bike, even if it's not a bike lane.\nI remember a case where 3 dudes were just cycling, outside of town and they were literally on the middle of the road. the place where they were is full of curves and has very little visibility, so they were riding side by side, middle of the road, comes a car, hits not one, but the 3 of them because they scared the person and she just swerved the car.\nThey sued her and us (insurance) 2 times. Lost both and had to pay for all damage done on the car by their own bodys",
">\n\nThis sounds like something that happened near by my home town, are you in Ontario?",
">\n\nno XD portugal",
">\n\nGod its so much worse that it's happened in multiple places.\nIn ours I think the driver killed one of the cyclists, then sued the family for emotional damage",
">\n\nMy biggest gripe about cyclists is that there is always some danger when you encounter them on the road, either as a pedestrian or motorist. Now, part of it isn’t their fault. At least here in the US, not much of the infrastructure is made for bicycles. But cyclists are constantly breaking the rules of the road (or sidewalk) to get where they’re going faster. Blowing red lights, leaving the bike lane to use the sidewalk, splitting lanes. I always clench a little when I approach one, wondering if this is the day I can’t get out of the way.",
">\n\nWe have that same problem, but then a million times worse, because I live in The Netherlands. You probably know about our proud cycling culture (the Amsterdam stereotype). And yes, cyclists here are just as bad as the ones you describe, but there’s a lot more of them here. And oh yeah, traffic laws are almost always in their favor.",
">\n\nI found driving in the towns of the Netherlands so hard. Not just because I was on the wrong side of the road 😉 but because I just wasn’t used to sooo many cyclists coming from all directions, always faster than me and passing on both sides. Even as I was signalling to leave a roundabout at one point about three cyclists rode past on the inside. I really struggled to keep up with them all, which of course means I drove slower and thus even more bikes passed me!",
">\n\nYes that is of course very difficult, however as a Dutchman I’m used to cyclists, so of course we struggle a lot less. But that doesn’t take away from the fact that cyclists do cause a lot of issues because of their careless behavior, and because as drivers we have to accommodate them. That one sided ‘deal’ that we have makes it very difficult to deal with them.\nAll in all I’m happy we have so many cyclists as it’s good for the environment. But the utopian mindset of cyclists being a gift to the world is just stupid. Especially when you consider that mostly Americans who drive on wide open roads with barely any cyclists around are the ones praising cyclists in my country all the time. Also, cyclists annoy the hell out of pedestrians as well, so it’s not just about motorists.",
">\n\nCyclists treat red lights like stop signs and stop signs like yield signs (at best). They’re not allowed on sidewalks but do it anyway. Fuckin hate cyclists.",
">\n\nEverything you said is completely legal in Denver and sidewalks are illegal , but drivers constantly scream at cyclists to ride there",
">\n\nCyclist can roll stop signs and run red lights in Denver? What the fuck?",
">\n\nI’d have no problem if cyclist had respect for other road users. where I live there are cycle lanes, but most cyclists are on the road or pavements, they ignore red lights etc. \nIf you want to cycle please make it’s safe for yourself and others around you.",
">\n\nExactly my thoughts",
">\n\nHonestly, selfish assholes exist everywhere but a selfish asshole on a bicycle does a lot less damage than a selfish asshole in a car. \nEDIT: OP's also downvoting everyone who disagrees with him, just fyi.",
">\n\nAs a pedestrian, I hate everyone who's not a pedestrian... And some pedestrians too.",
">\n\nThere's a reason so many cyclists die each year, they all seem to pick and choose which laws they want to follow. Its always safer to assume they'll do whatever they want and everyone else needs to adapt to them.",
">\n\nAs a driver downtown, I don't worry at all about pedestrians at intersections, I can turn my head and assume they will be maybe five feet closer to my car when I look back, (and I trust they won't sprint towards me when I look away, at their own peril), but bikes, they ride so fast, that in the short time I turn my head to check for oncoming traffic, a bike could materialize right beside / infront me, and I risk hitting them or them hitting the side of my car. And that's even in their designated bike lane, that I have to pass through to clear the intersection. And if I drive into a ped at three miles per hour, they will just hit my hood with their fist and call me a stupid motherfucker, or whatever makes them feel justice was served, but if I bump the bike, it will be a big crash, the bicyclist will be all curled up in a ball on the ground, I'll be the bad guy in the eyes of the law and anyone nearby, and I'll probably be late as fuck to wherever it is I'm trying to go to.",
">\n\nI skateboard so I guess I'm good",
">\n\nJust don’t inconvenience narcissistic car drivers by a few seconds.",
">\n\nI think everyone hates cyclists. Cyclists included.",
">\n\nAs a driver, I hate you both",
">\n\nPedestrians are literally the worst. Anyone who has to walk more than 20 feet a day and not to their car are complete losers, and should be jailed on site.",
">\n\nOK, I think that's a bit extreme. But hey, if you're running for public office I'll vote for you. \nI do have to wonder anytime I see someone that I know has the mental faculties to drive who is walking. Usually assume too many DUI's.",
">\n\nr/fuckcars ripping out their hair rn",
">\n\nNot unpopular.\n Everyone hates cyclists.",
">\n\nI casually cycle in the summer. If I'm on a trail, I'll slow down and ring my bell if I see pedestrians, or stop and dismount if there's a lot of people or they don't notice me. Especially on the narrow trails in this woodlot I sometimes go to. \nThe problem is a lot of cyclists, especially in North America, but perhaps other places, just aren't respectful of others. They demand car drivers \"share the road\", but then ride in huge packs, lane split, don't signal turns, run stop signs and red lights, weave in and out of traffic, boot up busy sidewalks at 15-20mph, refuse to use provided bike lanes, etc. There's like a gross sense of entitlement in the cycling community. Dude, you're still a vehicle. There's rules that apply to you, just like there are for cars and motorcycles. Big problem is difficulty/lack of enforcement. Cops have to catch them in the act. Even then they're slippery devils since they're usually more mobile than a cruiser or beat cop on foot. This is why I support plating bikes to make them easily identifiable.",
">\n\n\nThere's like a gross sense of entitlement in the cycling community. Dude, you're still a vehicle. There's rules that apply to you, just like there are for cars and motorcycles.\n\nThat is the problem right there. They want to be treated equal to car owners, yet they do not abide by traffic rules, hence all the accidents.",
">\n\nAs a driver, I concur.",
">\n\nI hate bikers on trails. They're supposed to stop and let hikers by but they never do. They go by so freakin' fast too. It's like come on now!",
">\n\nAs a mostly former cyclist, I often hated cyclists too. Mostly, because so many cyclist are just competitive asshats that suck the pleasure out of their own bike ride by making everything about speed. Like, heaven forbid they have to slow and yield to anyone.\nOnce, I was riding my bicycle with my young daughter on a bike path in the city. A couple cyclist came up and got all pissy at us, saying we need to be out of the cycle lane because we were going too slow and my 8 year old kid wasn't keeping to a narrow lane. It was so hostile - my kid started crying.\nBut that is just so typical, all the time. I've gotten yelled out a few times when I made a full, foot down stop at a redlight because the cyclist behind me was expecting me to either run the redlight or at least go into the crosswalk and dance around (like they do) until it went green. I remember nearly getting run over by cyclists all the time, and yelled at if I was going too slow.\nThat being said, we need to do 100,000 x more in the US towards making bike paths, protected bike lanes, etc., because cyling is a truly great way to get around and I miss it. I just don't miss the self-centered asshats that dominate the cycling community.",
">\n\nThis!",
">\n\nI’ve nothing against cyclists as a group. I prefer to hate all people who do stupid things whether they’re in cars, on bikes or walking. Went to pick my daughter up tonight and counted six cyclists in the dark wearing all black with no lights at all plus one with a light so weak I didn’t see it until I was nearly past him. Tonight it was dumb cyclists, but tomorrow it might be idiots in cars. Hate the idiots not the method of transportation.",
">\n\nTrue !",
">\n\nOMG YES !! I completely agree. Every time i tried to explain this to a friend, they would always look at me like I am crazy for thinking such a thing. But as I walk for 45 minutes every days, it became a reality you can't ignore... I can't count how many times I nearly got hit by a cyclist, it happens every other week. I am starting to think that cyclists should have to go through a \"course\" to learn the basics of using the streets x)\n(Sorry for mistakes, not native here 'x) )",
">\n\nThis is my story lol..",
">\n\nYes, and it also is my personal experience, which is why I posted this..?",
">\n\nYes I totally agree. Just saying \"that's my life\" :) happening in Brussels tho",
">\n\nMy bad x) welp France here, it amazes me in a really bad way how this seems to be such a common phenomenon literaly EVERYWHERE",
">\n\nJ'ai roulé en vélo à Paris et laisse tomber l'enfer que c'était. J'avais l'impression d'avancer avec des oies qui insultaient tout le monde. BAa bAAA BAaaAa !!! \nLe problème c'est que plus les gens sont stressés (même les piétons... Genre dans le metro) plus ils se haïssent et ce matin j'avais la haine sur les vélos.. en vrai j'ai la haine sur tous les citadins haha",
">\n\nas a cyclist I hate everyone",
">\n\nSame, I see posts like this where people tell us to ride on the sidewalk when it’s illegal. \nThey assume we don’t walk anywhere, drive, etc like we are essentially subhuman for doing exercise.\nThey tell us to ride closer to the right side of the road so we get hit by a car door. \nThey’re mad that we give a verbal signal that we’re coming up on the left even though that’s the law. \nnow that I’m in Colorado I’m getting yelled at for the Idaho stop, which is completely legal. We yield to stop signs and temporarily stop at red light only till it’s clear. It’s all to REDUCE CAR TRAFFIC.\nSo far I’ve had family members die from hit and runs and drunk drivers, but somehow cyclists are the most dangerous thing on the road today.\nWhat is this really about?",
">\n\nI loathe cyclists. Selfish, entitled lycra lunatics.",
">\n\nBe honest, do you realize that it's possible to ride a bicycle and not be selfish, or entitled, or a lunatic, or not wear lycra?",
">\n\nThis thread is such a circlejerk, it's ridiculous.",
">\n\nThat's what I'm here for",
">\n\nIt's because cycling isn't regulated like motor vehicles are but they still get on the roads unlike pedestrians. So they don't have knowledge on the rules of the road that drivers have.\nThere's also some sort of hypocrisy they have where they believe drivers should give way to them because bikes are more vulnerable than cars while expecting pedestrians to give way to them because they're moving faster.",
">\n\n\nSo they don't have knowledge on the rules of the road\n\nPlenty do. Many cyclists also are automobilists. They just feel like they're exempted from respecting trafic rules because it's tiring to stop and go on a bike and they're slower an lighter than cars.",
">\n\nSure you got hit by a truck, but at least you managed to save yourself a little time and avoid waiting for a few seconds. Is what I'd say if they didn't then end up in the hospital",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists, as it should be.",
">\n\nCyclists shouldn’t be on sidewalks",
">\n\nI also cringe a lot when I see the international Reddit community constantly praise us Dutch people for our biking culture. People have no idea how many traffic accidents we get that could have been avoided if we didn’t have cyclists EVERYWHERE who are barely aware of the traffic rules that also apply to them.\nPeople have no idea about how cyclists are almost always right according to our traffic laws, which makes them much more reckless. They cause millions of dollars of damage to cars (and pedestrians) each year, and barely ever face consequences for their irresponsible and reckless behavior in traffic.\nPeople don’t see how cyclists often block traffic because they like to cycle next to each other in pairs, and if you honk they get angry and sometimes even aggressive and try to break your side mirror if they feel like it.\nMany intersections have bicycle lanes that you need to check when making a turn when driving, even though the intersection is already super busy with lots of cars. And guess what, cyclists still ride around fast and recklessly and making sure you don’t hit another car, cyclist AND pedestrian is all the job of one single driver.\nSo all in all, people from countries where driving is a relatively easy and chill thing to do, praise cycling culture in other countries. Try to drive here in busy traffic with thousands of cars AND (RECKLESS) CYCLISTS on the road and then tell me what it’s like.",
">\n\nIt would be much easier to sympathize with cars drivers if they did not need like 60% of the entire transit space leaving cyclists and pedestrians very little.\n\neven though the intersection is already super busy with lots of cars\n\nOfc, because cars are so large and need so much space.",
">\n\nI get that, but why is that my fault? I don’t do the city planning. Besides, cars are much larger than bicycles, so doesn’t it make sense there’s more space needed for cars than for bicycles?\nBut even then, if you don’t want to have any sympathy for motorists, because city planners give them more space than others, that’s just weird. It’s not the motorist’s fault.",
">\n\n\ndoesn’t it make sense there’s more space needed for cars than for bicycles?\n\nWhy a valuable and scarce resource such as the public space in cities should be used predominantly to benefit car users while barring everyone else? \nI just find it much harder to sympathize with the privileged group.",
">\n\nBecause people need to be able to go from A to B?",
">\n\nSo do pedestrians/public transport users/cyclists. But they don't require so much space per person.",
">\n\nWell in The Netherlands public transportation takes up an enormous amount of space and cyclists have their own dedicated lanes almost everywhere. Also motorists have to give public transportation space as we usually have to stop for trams and buses to pass, according to traffic rules. Guess who doesn’t often follow those rules: cyclists.\nHowever, public transportation itself is super busy and unbelievably expensive in The Netherlands. It costs more than 20 Euros to travel ~70 kilometers. That’s why a lot of people still prefer to have a car, and cars simply need infrastructure.\nSo I don’t really get your point. Cars, bicycles and public transportation all get a fair portion of the space that’s available.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist, i hate pedestrians. Here in Germany, there is bike lanes, one part for bikes and one for pedestrians on traffic lights... etc. But the pedestrians just ignore them, form \"walls\" of people blocking the bike lane, dont look while crossing the bike lane. Even cars repect us more than you.",
">\n\nThis I understand. Experienced the same in Denmark",
">\n\nClaaaaaarksoooooonnnnn",
">\n\nIdk about other places but here cyclists are constantly breaking the law and never getting ticketed for it. It makes no sense to me. I don’t think it’d make a huge difference but I do think some cyclists would think twice about disregarding the rules if those rules were actually enforced.",
">\n\nI get the sentiment. My feeling is the root cause is they don’t have their own infrastructure. Cars and peds do. So cyclists are always forced into a non ideal path. \nI’m aware they have rights to the road but cars and bikes really struggle to share an infrastructure clearly made for cars. \nSo if we invest in cycling infrastructure everyone would probably be happier.",
">\n\ndoubt it. In my city there is an asphalt bike path for miles that is like 8 feet wide. Smooth. No stop signs. Do they use it? nope they get their collective ass out on the street and I honestly don't have a clue why.\nIt defies logic. Safter, smooth, not cars/trunks, etc. Here they are out on the street just fiddle farting down a 45 mph road like they own it with a bike path 15 feet away with no one on it. The last guy I asked said \"It is my road as well you know\" that I ran up on while I was at a crossing while riding on the path myself. I just gave up trying to understand. Someone dies on that road every couple of months from bike or pedestrian strike with a vehicle. It was the whole reason they built the path....",
">\n\nWell in my experience there are 2 thing going on there.\na) Often bikers will avoid the path because peds often share or walk across those paths and their speed is closer to that of a car than a ped or \nb) If they are commuting...the path likely isn't going exactly where they need to.\nAs to your specific scenario I don't doubt there are bikers that are hard headed and stubborn. I know a few of those. But generally I do bikers using the infrastructure where we have built it.",
">\n\nThere's an accident here involving @ car running over a cyclist who crossed a red traffic light. And guess who take the blame?",
">\n\nLaughs in being dutch",
">\n\nIt is regrettable that a handful of asshole cyclists ruins everyone’s opinion of us. It really undermines the support needed to improve infrastructure for cycling. \nIf it is any help, when i ring my bell, I am doing so to avoid the alternatives of either yelling a warning or startling people. I normally exit the path and pass on the grass. I would say that most cyclist are the same. I don’t want you to get out of the way, I want you to know I am there. \nBut it only takes a couple assholes that think they own the path or the street. I have a cousin like this and it is difficult to convince him his is wrong and is putting himself and others in danger.",
">\n\nI think the a-holes are people that are only on a bike because it's the easiest thing for them, living where they do. You and those like you are on the bike because you love cycling.",
">\n\nI live in Portland, OR, and the cyclists here are so fucking rude and entitled.",
">\n\nI live in not-Portland OR and visited once. I biked down the road. Could not believe how nice everyone was to me. Probably because they could tell I’m an outsider.",
">\n\nI meant how they treat everyone else who isn't on a bike, tbh.",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists and it's for a simple reason. They think they can do whatever the hell they want. They switch between a pedestrian, a cyclist and a vehicle deciding on the fly whatever rules they feel like following with no accountability. \nOne minute they are skipping traffic, then they are deciding to cross at a crosswalk instead of following traffic. And the sidewalks are bike lanes if that's more convenient.",
">\n\nI just get annoyed because they will ride double wide on a tight street, forcing you to go 60mph in a 45, on the opposite side of traffic, risking a head on collision. And yea, you have to do that, because otherwise cars behind you will start driving aggressive as well as the fact that your expecting all the cars to go at a bikes speed on the road.",
">\n\nThat's because every country except for the Netherlands and Denmark have shit bicycle infrastructure.",
">\n\nI civilised countries we have cycling paths and cycling on the street is also possible as drivers aren't insane. So this seems rather like a problem of poor urban planning than cyclists in general.",
">\n\nWhere I live the cyclists just refuse to take the bikelane and either block the traffic because the rather use the street or they decide to use the pedestrian side of the sidewalk. The frickin bikelane is as big as the pedestrian one. There is no excuse not to use it and they still won't! One of them almost hit me if I hadn't dodge it. If the cyclist only drove a few inches to the left there would have been a bikelane and it wouldn't happened. Of course the person didn't apologize and just cursed at me.",
">\n\nBike gutters are awful and less safe than taking the lane. Assholes park in the bike lanes ALL THE TIME. Plus no one ever looks behind them when getting out pf their car so getting smacked by a door is a real danger. Drivers are entitled but it’s not their fault it’s the way we’ve built society to allow and expect them to be.\nETA: next time you’re driving around take a count how many people you see pulled over or parked in a bike gutter.",
">\n\nCompletely agree - I was ran over almost 3 times in Berlin. \nAnd every single time I checked before crossing - but they just suddenly spawned right in the way",
">\n\nDid you cross at a designated crosswalk? As a cyclist the amount of times people just randomly meander across an active street instead of going to the zebra/lollipop crossing, and then get angry at me when I have to swerve out the way/ brake is comical.",
">\n\nMan, y'all are sad people. \n\"Get off the road!\" Okay, now we are on the sidewalk. \n\"Get off the sidewalk!\" Back in the road again. \n\"They need to ring their bells so we know they're coming! Btw I hate it when they ring their bells so I know they're coming.\"",
">\n\nI hate cyclists like that. I don’t have a car so my bike is my main source of transportation and I don’t ride like that. So far, from what I’ve noticed in my area, I’m the only one that follows the damn rules in my city xD",
">\n\nNo matter where you are and who you are… driver or walker, scooter or flyer… we ALL hate cyclists.",
">\n\nI feel ya. The only thing I hate more than cyclists is electric scooters.",
">\n\nCompletely agree! A cycling license (similar to driving) should be required. Far too many cyclist who doesn’t know (and those who don’t just give a F) about traffic rules.",
">\n\nI completely agree! Cyclists have a lot of rights on the roads, and are very vocal about them, but think they can do whatever the fuck they want at roundabouts and pedestrian crossings.",
">\n\nIt just fascinates me how anyone can walk or drive through a city and genuinely think that bicycles are the problem. Look around you at every turn there are cars jamming the roads. Parked blocking things. Blocking pavements. Driving aggressively. Speeding. Failing to stop. Polluting the air. If they hit you, you are seriously injured or dead. This happens in the thousands. The city absolutely revolves around them.",
">\n\nYou are 100% right. Except I didn't say bicycles are the problem. I said i hate them. I said fuck cars too. I also said bicycles are one of the best alternative for trafic jam in cities.\nCities in Europe weren't made for cars nor bikes. So the problem is the fucking lazy greedy people who decide how to spend our tax money. The problem is people thinking they are all alone on the street. The problem is how stressed everybody is and how it become dangerous.\nNot because I hate how cyclists take revenge from drivers bullies to pedestrians makes me hate a transportation model itself.",
">\n\nIt just seems odd that people can really harp on about cyclists when they are such a trivial issue. Posts like this can get hundreds of replies. People tend to make excuses about cars.",
">\n\nYou just insulted a whole country.",
">\n\nThe Netherlands? It's ok",
">\n\nOk",
">\n\nI judge the actions of the individual not the mode of transport. I find it produces more accurate results.",
">\n\nApparently \"individuals alone are responsible for their own actions\" is the real unpopular opinion here.",
">\n\nIndeed 😀",
">\n\nAs a car driver I also hate cyclists. Saw one on a 45mph the other day despite there being a sidewalk AND a bikelane",
">\n\n45 mph isn't a speed for bike lane or sidewalk. Street is",
">\n\nas a cyclist, I hate pedestrians.\nMy city put in these nice protected bicycle lanes so bikes don't have to ride inches from cars, and boy don't those pedestrians just LOVE using the bike lane as a queuing up spot for the crosswalks. it's just so nice and convenient to get 5 more feet closer to your goal, isn't it? Those bicycles can stop and wait...and feel free to swear at them like THEY are the ones in the wrong.\nBicycles and pedestrians are natural enemies, that's never going to change. There can be only one.",
">\n\nLET'S END THIS NOW !!!!!",
">\n\nanyplace but Holy Ground.",
">\n\ndon't blame all bicyclists for the shitty ones.\nthat would be like saying every person who drives a car is an asshole. or every person who walks on the sidewalk is an asshole.\nsome people are good at getting around. other people are jerks. don't blame everyone for the actions of a small subset of people.",
">\n\nI mean, isn’t that the sentiment over that the popular sub r/fuckcars? The generalization is already being perpetuated from cyclists and “urbanists” in their war against cars.",
">\n\nNot really. That sub mostly hates the focus on cars when designing infrastructure, as well as the forced dependency on cars in our modern world. Not individual drivers.",
">\n\nSure about that? It’s mostly just a bitch-fest about driver errors to further their political agenda.",
">\n\nYea, I'm pretty sure.",
">\n\nReally weird way to get there if that’s the case. Alienating a large portion of the population (car drivers, car riders, people that depend on vehicles for the delivery of goods and services) is not how you get them on your side.",
">\n\nI don't think that's their goal in the first place. It's just a reddit sub.",
">\n\nEspecially when they have a stupid fucking bell and say \"on the left\" then proceed to be on the right side of the trail running into you",
">\n\nHahahha \"is he coming on the left or should i go on the lef...\" BANG!!",
">\n\nGF lives in a college town. It’s as if there’s some kinda fuckin’ death wish among the student cycling population",
">\n\nAs a [insert anyone, including cyclist], I hate cyclists.",
">\n\nPeople don't wanna hear it when it comes from automobilists because \"gngn cars are more dangerous and drivers are entitled\" but reality is cyclists are just the worst. Whether I'm on foot, driving a car, or riding a bicycle myself, cyclists are always always the ones being absolute public hazards. Heck, when I'm on my bike and stop at the stop sign on a cycle lane to let the cars go, they look at me as if I'm jesus or something. They even try to let me pass first because of how used they are to cyclists who just can't be bothered to respect the damn stop sign.",
">\n\nThe problem isn't the cyclists here, it's the lacking infrastructure.",
">\n\nWe shouldn't have to build infrastructure so people can partake in recreation. I find that comment extremely arrogant. Why on earth do cyclists deserve to have their recreation glorified and catered to??",
">\n\nRecreation? Ah yes, cycling is only for recreation.",
">\n\nWell, where I live that I'd the ONLY purpose. I'm 17 miles from any city municipality. Nobody is biking here to go to the grocery store or work.",
">\n\nNot everything is about you personally.",
">\n\nTo me, it is, and should be. My concern is around how cyclists inconvenience me while I'm trying to be a productive member of society. I feel like that's a fair critique.",
">\n\nYou are mad that cyclists inconvenience you yet you reject dedicated infrastructure as a solution. Do you think cyclists should be banned off the road completely?",
">\n\nThe real issue here is lacking cycling infrastructure.",
">\n\nDefinitely a major issue.\nBut part of the issue is definitely cyclists who prioritize their own speed over the safety and welfare of everyone around them. It's like they are all BMW drivers, deep down, and just don't want to yield to or slow down for anyone.",
">\n\nI'm sure there are, assholes exist in all vehicle types.",
">\n\nCyclists know thar neither the pavement nor the road are theirs because motorists and pedestrians like you are both screaming at them all the time. And I swear you'd be angrier if they didn't give a polite warning that they're coming toward you. \nCyclists who breeze through crossings instead of stopping are a minority, much like cyclists are a minority in general, and you can't judge an entire group that aren't adequately represented",
">\n\nFuck traveling in general",
">\n\nYa. Where are our transporters! \nSorry had to go full nerd.",
">\n\nI see posts like this constantly. It blows my mind people can just choose one thing that is so insignificant to scapegoat. \nThey assume people on bikes don’t also walk, drive, etc like we are essentially subhuman for doing exercise / running errands in this way because they are inconvenienced for a few seconds. You realize we are human like you , right?\nPeople tell us to ride bicycles on the sidewalk when it’s illegal while others say not too. It’s usually against the law.\nThey tell us to ride closer to the right side of the road , so we get hit by a car door and yelled at again. \nThey’re mad that we give a verbal signal that we’re coming up on the left even though that’s the law. \nNow that I’m in Colorado I’m getting yelled at for the Idaho stop, which is completely legal. We yield to stop signs and temporarily stop at red lights only if it’s clear. It’s all to REDUCE CAR TRAFFIC. \nKeep in mind we are riding bicycles which in its own right REDUCES CAR TRAFFIC. \n80% of car trips are within 3 miles from your house. Everyone that rides a bike keeps you from being stuck behind them in traffic for longer then the 20 seconds you’re currently inconvenienced. It’s also mean parking closer to the front door of a shop. \nSo far I’ve had family members die from hit and runs and drunk drivers, but somehow cyclists are the most dangerous thing on the road today?! It’s not adding up.\nWhat is this really about?",
">\n\nI'm sorry for your losses. I never said bikers are the most dangerous things on the road. Saying this would be stupid. The problem in my city is the lack of respect from cyclists to pedestrians in a general way. I'm not even talking about drivers against EVERYTHING ON THE STREET.",
">\n\nI go out of my way to be respectful to everybody, and I’ve had nothing but kindness and respect from other cyclists .\nYou wanna blame everybody on a bicycle for all your problems when it’s really just about a few people who disrespected you. \nCyclists are drivers, walkers, etc. do they just jump on a bicycle and instantly become disrespectful?\nStill doesn’t make any logical sense.",
">\n\nDude you just don't get it.. i understand biking is your life.. but come on.\nI use to bike 40km per day to work. \nI don't have problems with people jumping on bikes. I simply hate the ones that are disrespectful.\nIs it too hard to understand? Just me venting coz I feel like a lot of bikers think they are on top of the citizen pyramid? \nI'm not venting about the system here, nor about cars.. just about some (yes some) bikers.\nAnd please there is no need to beg for upvotes on fuckcars how old are you?",
">\n\nI bet your fat.",
">\n\nOf course I fart !",
">\n\nTo you yours and to mine mine; I hate car users and their ilk who are filled with wonton waste and hate for all else who dare travel near them. I stop at all lights, halt for all signs, use a mirror, lights, and hand signals, pull over for cars coming my way so long as there is any room, and use what little biking infrastructure is available to me.\nMy taxes are waste and paid in folly for they assuredly go in portion to your reckless use of a powerful machine and not to my own reckless use of a small self-propelled stick on two wheels to separate lanes and keep them maintained. No, no, I must settle for the gutter and cry glee for that and be ashamed to move to the sidewalk when it suddenly ends and continues a block later down the road. \nFuck your car, your roads, and your selfish desire to pave the world and create cities with 60% of their coverage dedicated to driving a car, parking a car, and separating the world into places for cars and otherwise. You who drive faster and faster, in bigger and bigger cars. I loath you as you loath mine.",
">\n\nI wouldn’t hate cyclists if they didn’t act like road laws don’t apply to em in the city where I live. I’ve seen cyclists not even stop at red lights even with an almost full intersection, and ride the wrong way down one ways.\nEdit: I do wish the city where I live had more bike lanes but yeah.",
">\n\nIf you're going to hate someone, maybe hate the people actually doing those things.\nIf I see someone on a bike rush through a short break on a red light in an otherwise busy intersection, I shake my head and think they are an idiot. I think this while waiting for the light to turn green on my bike.\nSimilarly, when a car illegally stops in a bike lane (which happens ALL THE TIME by the way), I don't turn around and blame the cars moving along legally in the adjacent lane.",
">\n\nPedestrian are the worst.\nWhen i started using bicicle I was very polite: brake, ring, ask for permission. And what the large amount of people do? Ignore u, watch u in the eyes and take a step in the fucking middle of the trail (many many times! for real!), shout at you just because u exist. So.... At some point is fuck you all, I'm coming go out of the way. That's it",
">\n\n\nI will never drive nor park on a bike lane, always look into the mirror to be careful of one of you monkeys. So why can't you be careful when us peasants are walking?\n\nThis is dumb. Obviously there are plenty of cyclists who are careful and courteous about your safety. That's part of what a bell or \"watch out!\" (generally \"On your left\") is doing for you. And just because you are courteous to them doesn't mean everyone is. Is every driver a douchebag just because some of them crowd cyclists when and where the cyclist has the right to the road? No.",
">\n\nThe difference here is that generally car drivers are going to be held accountable for bad driving. This is in the form of dash cams, ANPR and red light cameras which catch drivers doing bad things and they can receive a fine or points on their licence. Cyclists currently can't be held accountable if they jump red lights or hit a car or pedestrian as there isn't anything that helps identify them. This is a big issue in cities. I live and work in London and see many cyclists jumping red lights and weaving around pedestrians crossing. Cars can't do this as most traffic lights have red light cameras that would catch this.\nDrivers as a collective (including me) are in no way perfect or even held to account 100% of the time, but I believe we need a system for cyclists to be held accountable too",
">\n\nYour way of thinking, while perfectly rational and natural, is outdated. Traffic law enforcement, like any other law enforcement, is less about the enforcement, and more about the prevention. Where I live, speed and red light cameras are clearly marked ahead so that the people who'd normally break the law follow it instead, making punishment unnecessary. \nSame could be done with cyclists. Sure, you could make every cyclist install a license plate, require a \"cycling license\", or install expensive cameras with facial identification software, but how about just make it so cyclists aren't incentivised to break the law in the first place? \nMake more useful cycling infrastructure, and more cyclists will use it. Make that infrastructure intersect with foot and motor traffic more safely and less often, and less collisions will happen.",
">\n\nI completely understand your point. However, a lot of money has gone into my local area for cycling infrastructure that most cyclists are using, but many are still choosing to break the rules as the rules are inconvenient. The infrastructure is not enough, there needs to be an incentive NOT to break the rules.\nIf you take a look at Chiswick High Road in London, England. They have created segregated cycle lanes from the traffic. These cycle lanes have their own lights and crossings to keep them safe from cars. However many cyclists just ignore the lights and just keep going into pedestrians. There is no punishment for them doing this as they can't be tracked. Personally I think every cyclist should have to register their bike (make it free to help encourage this) and then a new form of ANPR used to also catch cyclists in the act",
">\n\nPersonally I'd have no problem registering my bike for free, especially if I could use that same registration if it gets stolen, but registering something as mechanically simple and cheap as a bicycle is, in my opinion difficult if not impossible to do without making the bike mechanically complex and expensive, at which point most people would just switch to scooters.\nI don't live in London, but from what I've heard, by far the biggest threat in the city is still motorized traffic, namely cars and lorries, and so until that problem is no longer a problem, I wouldn't really do anything special about bikes. Maybe put some undercover bike cops near the most dangerous bike path/lane intersections to catch a few offenders and make an example out of them, but that's about it.",
">\n\nMost cars I’ve driven came equipped with brakes and a steering wheel. I don’t see the problem",
">\n\nA common take and a stupid one.\nThere are good and bad drivers, pedestrians, and cyclists. Hating any of them as a group because some of them do bad things is just dumb.",
">\n\nIf you followed the laws and stayed out of the bike lane as a pedestrian there would be no problem.",
">\n\nIf bicyclists followed the laws and stopped ignoring street signs/traffic lights there would be no problem.",
">\n\nDon’t see how this address the problem with pedestrians in bike lanes.",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Drivers pedestrians other cyclists. They're a scourge.",
">\n\nEvery word of this is pure wisdom.",
">\n\nAs a car driver, I too hate cyclists.\nI don't care who has 'right of way'. I'm in a car, you're not. If we collide, regardless of fault, you're the one that dies.\nDo you really want to die on the hill that says \"i can bike on the rode b/c it's legal\"?\nI might be in jail, but you're still dead.\nBikes don't belong on public roads. Unless there's a bike lane - aka, a pathway designed specifically for bikers.\nIt's FAR SAFER to bike on the sidewalk.",
">\n\nBe careful you’ll anger r/fuckcars",
">\n\nI recently got a bike in Japan and there isn't any room on the street to ride my bike. Most people are fine when I'm on the sidewalk, however, the worst ones are groups of 2 or more who try and take up as much space as possible allowing nobody to pass. Same with the people who constantly switch between the left and right side of the sidewalk. It's really annoying to see how little spacial awareness they have.",
">\n\nCyclists on the road don’t have to pass the same test as vehicles on the road, which is why they are so bad. If there was a test in order to cycle on the road then i think it would be alot better",
">\n\nWhy do you hate all cyclists when only some of them are rude/dangerous?",
">\n\nCope hehe",
">\n\nIt's the powered vehicles that kill most pedestrians.\nBut, sure, cyclists blahblah...",
">\n\nAs an occasional cyclist, I don't like you either.",
">\n\nI biked everywhere.....when I was a child. I'm an adult now and have an automobile. They are pretty neat.",
">\n\nWhen I used to have to walk to work I’d walk on the sidewalk and listen to music and one time this guy zipped right by me yelling almost knocking me over and flipped me off?? They act like they don’t have breaks lmao",
">\n\nholy smokes! glad you're ok",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Even cyclists.",
">\n\nAnd here i thought why the f pediatrician hate cyclists",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Even other cyclists.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist this thread is hilarious",
">\n\nAnyone got recommendations for how to be a nice, considerate cyclist besides being careful and non-entitled? I plan on starting when it gets warm outside.",
">\n\nNot unpopular",
">\n\nWhen I drive to work, I obey most of the rules. I just can't drive on some roads. That would either kill me at some point or I'd slow down a whole 60 km/h lane that's packed with traffic. When riding on the sidewalk, I always stop or get off my bike if it gets too crowded or the sidewalk narrows. But when no one is around I just keep driving normally, just slower than usual. I try to stay alert at all times and let everyone pass because I know I'm wrong here.\nAt one point there is a one-way street I'm not allowed to drive on, but as my alternatives are the same 60km/h road (but now also with rails) or a crowded sidewalk, I prefer the one-way street with maybe 4 cars per hour that I can easily avoid. After that there is finally a bike path until I get to work. There would be a legal route, but it would take twice, if not triple, the time.\nI also hate reckless cyclists. They have already endangered me and are often unfriendly assholes. I just don't have a death wish and don't want to drive a route in an hour if 20 minutes are possible in a safe way (If the brain gets used).",
">\n\nCyclists don’t care because unless they get injured there are no real consequences for their actions.\nI think that any vehicle, with or without any type of motor, should require a license to operate on a public roadway. Road legal bikes need to be held to quality standards, like cars, and should also be registered. If you wish to ride one on a public roadway it should have a number plate on it. You should have to pass a rider’s ed course proving that you know the rules of the road. There should be a test proving that you can control the vehicle and operate it safely, same as a car or motorcycle.",
">\n\nYeah I’ve nearly been run over from behind by cyclists on sidewalks too many times",
">\n\nIdk maybe my town is weird like everwhere on the internet and even in statistics you hear stuff like that but then I haven't really seen any cyclists run red lights ever and as someone who maybe not often but sometimes cycles, the last thing I'd do as a cyclist is run a red light like I don't wanna die?",
">\n\nOnly people that like cyclist.. are probably just other cyclists.",
">\n\nI don’t mind normal, law-abiding cyclists at all. I just despise the ones that think they can choose whether to act like a car or pedestrian whenever they feel like it. Or worse, they don’t know the actual laws but think they are special just because they are riding a bike.",
">\n\nSometimes I feel like I am the only one watching out for pedestrians. For example when there's a crosswalk coming up that goes over the bike path and there's someone waiting, I always yield and the person waiting is often surprised since most people on bicycles just carry on. So not all cyclists are like that.",
">\n\nAs a pedestrian, cyclist and driver, I hate taxis.",
">\n\nI once almost got hit by a cyclist who failed to stop at a stop sign"
] |
>
I knew a cyclist who would always talk shit about cars. He told me he’s been hit TEN TIMES. UMMM?? If you’ve been hit ten times then it’s not the cars fault…
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[
"I road cycled for years, I always followed the street rules. Always. Red light means red light. \nI have so many cycling friends who get into accidents and other conflicts with drivers, and yet they think it’s stupid to stop at a red light. They just don’t connect these two things",
">\n\nMost bikers I encounter are complete idiots. Like I'd be driving normally and out of nowhere comes a biker on a crosswalk in full speed. Now, I appreciate bikers who actually stop and make eye contact with me as I'm driving towards the crosswalk but man, it's either that or the biker almost dies because I have no time to brake.\nAnd what's up with all the bikers going like 5 kmh IN THE MIDDLE of a road when there's a dedicated sidewalk for bikers right next to them? Drives me insane.",
">\n\nIt seems like most bikers because of observation bias.\nIf you follow the rules as you should, you’re unmemorable.\nAs for the sidewalks - its actually less safe on the sidewalk.",
">\n\nInteresting. Dangerous situations are more valuable to remember, and I remember tons of irresponsible bikers. It is in fact observation bias. But I'm always happy to see those who pay close attention to traffic, and I do remeber some of them aswell.",
">\n\nWell the same goes for driving. How many cars do you remember when they haven’t done anything? But you tend to remember the ones who do something dumb",
">\n\nYeah it can be applied to anything really.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist in one of the most bike-dense cities in the world, I hate cyclists too. If I could avoid getting myself hurt, I’d be ramming at least ten of them a day just to teach a lesson about ignoring rules and common sense.",
">\n\nAmsterdam? Copenhagen?",
">\n\nCopenhagen. It’s a wonderful bike city but the people are incredibly self-centered.",
">\n\nI had high expectations from cyclists when I first visited the city, after all it is heralded as a cycling paradise and, well, let’s say it looked a lot more like the rest of the world and mainly because of the personal behavior of cyclists.\nMy local friend justified it, stating that it’s because danish are more temperamental than all other Scandinavians: an explanation that I really didn’t know what to do with…",
">\n\nIf “temperamental” means “a bunch of egotistical [insert unflattering body part]”, he’s right.",
">\n\nYou make it sound like a war zone. I live in Copenhagen and most of the time biking around the city is very pleasant. Except for the food delivery scooters, they can 🤬 off.",
">\n\nI guess it depends on how often and where you’re going. If you have places to be each and every day and want to get there effectively, people ignoring general rules and courtesies of the road are a pain. If you’re one of the types listening to podcasts with a latte in one hand and a phone in the other just trudging along, it’s probably fine.",
">\n\nSame! I love walking. Where I live on popular trails, there are bike lanes, but the cyclists will just ride wherever they. They don’t care and won’t let you know they’re coming. They’ll get pissy if you don’t just automatically know they’re coming up from behind you. If you do much as step foot in the bike lane, they get mad, but have no problems riding side by side outside the bike lane.",
">\n\nSame here! So much for my pleasant walk on the beautiful Trail. They sneak up and when they're almost on top of me, a loud voice yells \"On your left!\" They startle the shit out of me and cause me to jump sky high! 😡",
">\n\nIt’s literally the law to say that. This thread is all about hating them no matter if they follow the law or not.",
">\n\nIs it possible to do that without sneaking up on them and startling the shit out of them by yelling real loud? And then cutting is close to them as you possibly can without hitting them?",
">\n\nHello. \nMy useless comment to this post is here :D\nSo, i work in the accidents department of a big insurance company. My country is very strickt about the road rules, meaning:\nOur company estimates (is this the right word?) that around 82% of accidents involving cyclists, are to blame on the cyclist. Since there are expecific places on the road for you to ride your bike, even if it's not a bike lane.\nI remember a case where 3 dudes were just cycling, outside of town and they were literally on the middle of the road. the place where they were is full of curves and has very little visibility, so they were riding side by side, middle of the road, comes a car, hits not one, but the 3 of them because they scared the person and she just swerved the car.\nThey sued her and us (insurance) 2 times. Lost both and had to pay for all damage done on the car by their own bodys",
">\n\nThis sounds like something that happened near by my home town, are you in Ontario?",
">\n\nno XD portugal",
">\n\nGod its so much worse that it's happened in multiple places.\nIn ours I think the driver killed one of the cyclists, then sued the family for emotional damage",
">\n\nMy biggest gripe about cyclists is that there is always some danger when you encounter them on the road, either as a pedestrian or motorist. Now, part of it isn’t their fault. At least here in the US, not much of the infrastructure is made for bicycles. But cyclists are constantly breaking the rules of the road (or sidewalk) to get where they’re going faster. Blowing red lights, leaving the bike lane to use the sidewalk, splitting lanes. I always clench a little when I approach one, wondering if this is the day I can’t get out of the way.",
">\n\nWe have that same problem, but then a million times worse, because I live in The Netherlands. You probably know about our proud cycling culture (the Amsterdam stereotype). And yes, cyclists here are just as bad as the ones you describe, but there’s a lot more of them here. And oh yeah, traffic laws are almost always in their favor.",
">\n\nI found driving in the towns of the Netherlands so hard. Not just because I was on the wrong side of the road 😉 but because I just wasn’t used to sooo many cyclists coming from all directions, always faster than me and passing on both sides. Even as I was signalling to leave a roundabout at one point about three cyclists rode past on the inside. I really struggled to keep up with them all, which of course means I drove slower and thus even more bikes passed me!",
">\n\nYes that is of course very difficult, however as a Dutchman I’m used to cyclists, so of course we struggle a lot less. But that doesn’t take away from the fact that cyclists do cause a lot of issues because of their careless behavior, and because as drivers we have to accommodate them. That one sided ‘deal’ that we have makes it very difficult to deal with them.\nAll in all I’m happy we have so many cyclists as it’s good for the environment. But the utopian mindset of cyclists being a gift to the world is just stupid. Especially when you consider that mostly Americans who drive on wide open roads with barely any cyclists around are the ones praising cyclists in my country all the time. Also, cyclists annoy the hell out of pedestrians as well, so it’s not just about motorists.",
">\n\nCyclists treat red lights like stop signs and stop signs like yield signs (at best). They’re not allowed on sidewalks but do it anyway. Fuckin hate cyclists.",
">\n\nEverything you said is completely legal in Denver and sidewalks are illegal , but drivers constantly scream at cyclists to ride there",
">\n\nCyclist can roll stop signs and run red lights in Denver? What the fuck?",
">\n\nI’d have no problem if cyclist had respect for other road users. where I live there are cycle lanes, but most cyclists are on the road or pavements, they ignore red lights etc. \nIf you want to cycle please make it’s safe for yourself and others around you.",
">\n\nExactly my thoughts",
">\n\nHonestly, selfish assholes exist everywhere but a selfish asshole on a bicycle does a lot less damage than a selfish asshole in a car. \nEDIT: OP's also downvoting everyone who disagrees with him, just fyi.",
">\n\nAs a pedestrian, I hate everyone who's not a pedestrian... And some pedestrians too.",
">\n\nThere's a reason so many cyclists die each year, they all seem to pick and choose which laws they want to follow. Its always safer to assume they'll do whatever they want and everyone else needs to adapt to them.",
">\n\nAs a driver downtown, I don't worry at all about pedestrians at intersections, I can turn my head and assume they will be maybe five feet closer to my car when I look back, (and I trust they won't sprint towards me when I look away, at their own peril), but bikes, they ride so fast, that in the short time I turn my head to check for oncoming traffic, a bike could materialize right beside / infront me, and I risk hitting them or them hitting the side of my car. And that's even in their designated bike lane, that I have to pass through to clear the intersection. And if I drive into a ped at three miles per hour, they will just hit my hood with their fist and call me a stupid motherfucker, or whatever makes them feel justice was served, but if I bump the bike, it will be a big crash, the bicyclist will be all curled up in a ball on the ground, I'll be the bad guy in the eyes of the law and anyone nearby, and I'll probably be late as fuck to wherever it is I'm trying to go to.",
">\n\nI skateboard so I guess I'm good",
">\n\nJust don’t inconvenience narcissistic car drivers by a few seconds.",
">\n\nI think everyone hates cyclists. Cyclists included.",
">\n\nAs a driver, I hate you both",
">\n\nPedestrians are literally the worst. Anyone who has to walk more than 20 feet a day and not to their car are complete losers, and should be jailed on site.",
">\n\nOK, I think that's a bit extreme. But hey, if you're running for public office I'll vote for you. \nI do have to wonder anytime I see someone that I know has the mental faculties to drive who is walking. Usually assume too many DUI's.",
">\n\nr/fuckcars ripping out their hair rn",
">\n\nNot unpopular.\n Everyone hates cyclists.",
">\n\nI casually cycle in the summer. If I'm on a trail, I'll slow down and ring my bell if I see pedestrians, or stop and dismount if there's a lot of people or they don't notice me. Especially on the narrow trails in this woodlot I sometimes go to. \nThe problem is a lot of cyclists, especially in North America, but perhaps other places, just aren't respectful of others. They demand car drivers \"share the road\", but then ride in huge packs, lane split, don't signal turns, run stop signs and red lights, weave in and out of traffic, boot up busy sidewalks at 15-20mph, refuse to use provided bike lanes, etc. There's like a gross sense of entitlement in the cycling community. Dude, you're still a vehicle. There's rules that apply to you, just like there are for cars and motorcycles. Big problem is difficulty/lack of enforcement. Cops have to catch them in the act. Even then they're slippery devils since they're usually more mobile than a cruiser or beat cop on foot. This is why I support plating bikes to make them easily identifiable.",
">\n\n\nThere's like a gross sense of entitlement in the cycling community. Dude, you're still a vehicle. There's rules that apply to you, just like there are for cars and motorcycles.\n\nThat is the problem right there. They want to be treated equal to car owners, yet they do not abide by traffic rules, hence all the accidents.",
">\n\nAs a driver, I concur.",
">\n\nI hate bikers on trails. They're supposed to stop and let hikers by but they never do. They go by so freakin' fast too. It's like come on now!",
">\n\nAs a mostly former cyclist, I often hated cyclists too. Mostly, because so many cyclist are just competitive asshats that suck the pleasure out of their own bike ride by making everything about speed. Like, heaven forbid they have to slow and yield to anyone.\nOnce, I was riding my bicycle with my young daughter on a bike path in the city. A couple cyclist came up and got all pissy at us, saying we need to be out of the cycle lane because we were going too slow and my 8 year old kid wasn't keeping to a narrow lane. It was so hostile - my kid started crying.\nBut that is just so typical, all the time. I've gotten yelled out a few times when I made a full, foot down stop at a redlight because the cyclist behind me was expecting me to either run the redlight or at least go into the crosswalk and dance around (like they do) until it went green. I remember nearly getting run over by cyclists all the time, and yelled at if I was going too slow.\nThat being said, we need to do 100,000 x more in the US towards making bike paths, protected bike lanes, etc., because cyling is a truly great way to get around and I miss it. I just don't miss the self-centered asshats that dominate the cycling community.",
">\n\nThis!",
">\n\nI’ve nothing against cyclists as a group. I prefer to hate all people who do stupid things whether they’re in cars, on bikes or walking. Went to pick my daughter up tonight and counted six cyclists in the dark wearing all black with no lights at all plus one with a light so weak I didn’t see it until I was nearly past him. Tonight it was dumb cyclists, but tomorrow it might be idiots in cars. Hate the idiots not the method of transportation.",
">\n\nTrue !",
">\n\nOMG YES !! I completely agree. Every time i tried to explain this to a friend, they would always look at me like I am crazy for thinking such a thing. But as I walk for 45 minutes every days, it became a reality you can't ignore... I can't count how many times I nearly got hit by a cyclist, it happens every other week. I am starting to think that cyclists should have to go through a \"course\" to learn the basics of using the streets x)\n(Sorry for mistakes, not native here 'x) )",
">\n\nThis is my story lol..",
">\n\nYes, and it also is my personal experience, which is why I posted this..?",
">\n\nYes I totally agree. Just saying \"that's my life\" :) happening in Brussels tho",
">\n\nMy bad x) welp France here, it amazes me in a really bad way how this seems to be such a common phenomenon literaly EVERYWHERE",
">\n\nJ'ai roulé en vélo à Paris et laisse tomber l'enfer que c'était. J'avais l'impression d'avancer avec des oies qui insultaient tout le monde. BAa bAAA BAaaAa !!! \nLe problème c'est que plus les gens sont stressés (même les piétons... Genre dans le metro) plus ils se haïssent et ce matin j'avais la haine sur les vélos.. en vrai j'ai la haine sur tous les citadins haha",
">\n\nas a cyclist I hate everyone",
">\n\nSame, I see posts like this where people tell us to ride on the sidewalk when it’s illegal. \nThey assume we don’t walk anywhere, drive, etc like we are essentially subhuman for doing exercise.\nThey tell us to ride closer to the right side of the road so we get hit by a car door. \nThey’re mad that we give a verbal signal that we’re coming up on the left even though that’s the law. \nnow that I’m in Colorado I’m getting yelled at for the Idaho stop, which is completely legal. We yield to stop signs and temporarily stop at red light only till it’s clear. It’s all to REDUCE CAR TRAFFIC.\nSo far I’ve had family members die from hit and runs and drunk drivers, but somehow cyclists are the most dangerous thing on the road today.\nWhat is this really about?",
">\n\nI loathe cyclists. Selfish, entitled lycra lunatics.",
">\n\nBe honest, do you realize that it's possible to ride a bicycle and not be selfish, or entitled, or a lunatic, or not wear lycra?",
">\n\nThis thread is such a circlejerk, it's ridiculous.",
">\n\nThat's what I'm here for",
">\n\nIt's because cycling isn't regulated like motor vehicles are but they still get on the roads unlike pedestrians. So they don't have knowledge on the rules of the road that drivers have.\nThere's also some sort of hypocrisy they have where they believe drivers should give way to them because bikes are more vulnerable than cars while expecting pedestrians to give way to them because they're moving faster.",
">\n\n\nSo they don't have knowledge on the rules of the road\n\nPlenty do. Many cyclists also are automobilists. They just feel like they're exempted from respecting trafic rules because it's tiring to stop and go on a bike and they're slower an lighter than cars.",
">\n\nSure you got hit by a truck, but at least you managed to save yourself a little time and avoid waiting for a few seconds. Is what I'd say if they didn't then end up in the hospital",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists, as it should be.",
">\n\nCyclists shouldn’t be on sidewalks",
">\n\nI also cringe a lot when I see the international Reddit community constantly praise us Dutch people for our biking culture. People have no idea how many traffic accidents we get that could have been avoided if we didn’t have cyclists EVERYWHERE who are barely aware of the traffic rules that also apply to them.\nPeople have no idea about how cyclists are almost always right according to our traffic laws, which makes them much more reckless. They cause millions of dollars of damage to cars (and pedestrians) each year, and barely ever face consequences for their irresponsible and reckless behavior in traffic.\nPeople don’t see how cyclists often block traffic because they like to cycle next to each other in pairs, and if you honk they get angry and sometimes even aggressive and try to break your side mirror if they feel like it.\nMany intersections have bicycle lanes that you need to check when making a turn when driving, even though the intersection is already super busy with lots of cars. And guess what, cyclists still ride around fast and recklessly and making sure you don’t hit another car, cyclist AND pedestrian is all the job of one single driver.\nSo all in all, people from countries where driving is a relatively easy and chill thing to do, praise cycling culture in other countries. Try to drive here in busy traffic with thousands of cars AND (RECKLESS) CYCLISTS on the road and then tell me what it’s like.",
">\n\nIt would be much easier to sympathize with cars drivers if they did not need like 60% of the entire transit space leaving cyclists and pedestrians very little.\n\neven though the intersection is already super busy with lots of cars\n\nOfc, because cars are so large and need so much space.",
">\n\nI get that, but why is that my fault? I don’t do the city planning. Besides, cars are much larger than bicycles, so doesn’t it make sense there’s more space needed for cars than for bicycles?\nBut even then, if you don’t want to have any sympathy for motorists, because city planners give them more space than others, that’s just weird. It’s not the motorist’s fault.",
">\n\n\ndoesn’t it make sense there’s more space needed for cars than for bicycles?\n\nWhy a valuable and scarce resource such as the public space in cities should be used predominantly to benefit car users while barring everyone else? \nI just find it much harder to sympathize with the privileged group.",
">\n\nBecause people need to be able to go from A to B?",
">\n\nSo do pedestrians/public transport users/cyclists. But they don't require so much space per person.",
">\n\nWell in The Netherlands public transportation takes up an enormous amount of space and cyclists have their own dedicated lanes almost everywhere. Also motorists have to give public transportation space as we usually have to stop for trams and buses to pass, according to traffic rules. Guess who doesn’t often follow those rules: cyclists.\nHowever, public transportation itself is super busy and unbelievably expensive in The Netherlands. It costs more than 20 Euros to travel ~70 kilometers. That’s why a lot of people still prefer to have a car, and cars simply need infrastructure.\nSo I don’t really get your point. Cars, bicycles and public transportation all get a fair portion of the space that’s available.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist, i hate pedestrians. Here in Germany, there is bike lanes, one part for bikes and one for pedestrians on traffic lights... etc. But the pedestrians just ignore them, form \"walls\" of people blocking the bike lane, dont look while crossing the bike lane. Even cars repect us more than you.",
">\n\nThis I understand. Experienced the same in Denmark",
">\n\nClaaaaaarksoooooonnnnn",
">\n\nIdk about other places but here cyclists are constantly breaking the law and never getting ticketed for it. It makes no sense to me. I don’t think it’d make a huge difference but I do think some cyclists would think twice about disregarding the rules if those rules were actually enforced.",
">\n\nI get the sentiment. My feeling is the root cause is they don’t have their own infrastructure. Cars and peds do. So cyclists are always forced into a non ideal path. \nI’m aware they have rights to the road but cars and bikes really struggle to share an infrastructure clearly made for cars. \nSo if we invest in cycling infrastructure everyone would probably be happier.",
">\n\ndoubt it. In my city there is an asphalt bike path for miles that is like 8 feet wide. Smooth. No stop signs. Do they use it? nope they get their collective ass out on the street and I honestly don't have a clue why.\nIt defies logic. Safter, smooth, not cars/trunks, etc. Here they are out on the street just fiddle farting down a 45 mph road like they own it with a bike path 15 feet away with no one on it. The last guy I asked said \"It is my road as well you know\" that I ran up on while I was at a crossing while riding on the path myself. I just gave up trying to understand. Someone dies on that road every couple of months from bike or pedestrian strike with a vehicle. It was the whole reason they built the path....",
">\n\nWell in my experience there are 2 thing going on there.\na) Often bikers will avoid the path because peds often share or walk across those paths and their speed is closer to that of a car than a ped or \nb) If they are commuting...the path likely isn't going exactly where they need to.\nAs to your specific scenario I don't doubt there are bikers that are hard headed and stubborn. I know a few of those. But generally I do bikers using the infrastructure where we have built it.",
">\n\nThere's an accident here involving @ car running over a cyclist who crossed a red traffic light. And guess who take the blame?",
">\n\nLaughs in being dutch",
">\n\nIt is regrettable that a handful of asshole cyclists ruins everyone’s opinion of us. It really undermines the support needed to improve infrastructure for cycling. \nIf it is any help, when i ring my bell, I am doing so to avoid the alternatives of either yelling a warning or startling people. I normally exit the path and pass on the grass. I would say that most cyclist are the same. I don’t want you to get out of the way, I want you to know I am there. \nBut it only takes a couple assholes that think they own the path or the street. I have a cousin like this and it is difficult to convince him his is wrong and is putting himself and others in danger.",
">\n\nI think the a-holes are people that are only on a bike because it's the easiest thing for them, living where they do. You and those like you are on the bike because you love cycling.",
">\n\nI live in Portland, OR, and the cyclists here are so fucking rude and entitled.",
">\n\nI live in not-Portland OR and visited once. I biked down the road. Could not believe how nice everyone was to me. Probably because they could tell I’m an outsider.",
">\n\nI meant how they treat everyone else who isn't on a bike, tbh.",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists and it's for a simple reason. They think they can do whatever the hell they want. They switch between a pedestrian, a cyclist and a vehicle deciding on the fly whatever rules they feel like following with no accountability. \nOne minute they are skipping traffic, then they are deciding to cross at a crosswalk instead of following traffic. And the sidewalks are bike lanes if that's more convenient.",
">\n\nI just get annoyed because they will ride double wide on a tight street, forcing you to go 60mph in a 45, on the opposite side of traffic, risking a head on collision. And yea, you have to do that, because otherwise cars behind you will start driving aggressive as well as the fact that your expecting all the cars to go at a bikes speed on the road.",
">\n\nThat's because every country except for the Netherlands and Denmark have shit bicycle infrastructure.",
">\n\nI civilised countries we have cycling paths and cycling on the street is also possible as drivers aren't insane. So this seems rather like a problem of poor urban planning than cyclists in general.",
">\n\nWhere I live the cyclists just refuse to take the bikelane and either block the traffic because the rather use the street or they decide to use the pedestrian side of the sidewalk. The frickin bikelane is as big as the pedestrian one. There is no excuse not to use it and they still won't! One of them almost hit me if I hadn't dodge it. If the cyclist only drove a few inches to the left there would have been a bikelane and it wouldn't happened. Of course the person didn't apologize and just cursed at me.",
">\n\nBike gutters are awful and less safe than taking the lane. Assholes park in the bike lanes ALL THE TIME. Plus no one ever looks behind them when getting out pf their car so getting smacked by a door is a real danger. Drivers are entitled but it’s not their fault it’s the way we’ve built society to allow and expect them to be.\nETA: next time you’re driving around take a count how many people you see pulled over or parked in a bike gutter.",
">\n\nCompletely agree - I was ran over almost 3 times in Berlin. \nAnd every single time I checked before crossing - but they just suddenly spawned right in the way",
">\n\nDid you cross at a designated crosswalk? As a cyclist the amount of times people just randomly meander across an active street instead of going to the zebra/lollipop crossing, and then get angry at me when I have to swerve out the way/ brake is comical.",
">\n\nMan, y'all are sad people. \n\"Get off the road!\" Okay, now we are on the sidewalk. \n\"Get off the sidewalk!\" Back in the road again. \n\"They need to ring their bells so we know they're coming! Btw I hate it when they ring their bells so I know they're coming.\"",
">\n\nI hate cyclists like that. I don’t have a car so my bike is my main source of transportation and I don’t ride like that. So far, from what I’ve noticed in my area, I’m the only one that follows the damn rules in my city xD",
">\n\nNo matter where you are and who you are… driver or walker, scooter or flyer… we ALL hate cyclists.",
">\n\nI feel ya. The only thing I hate more than cyclists is electric scooters.",
">\n\nCompletely agree! A cycling license (similar to driving) should be required. Far too many cyclist who doesn’t know (and those who don’t just give a F) about traffic rules.",
">\n\nI completely agree! Cyclists have a lot of rights on the roads, and are very vocal about them, but think they can do whatever the fuck they want at roundabouts and pedestrian crossings.",
">\n\nIt just fascinates me how anyone can walk or drive through a city and genuinely think that bicycles are the problem. Look around you at every turn there are cars jamming the roads. Parked blocking things. Blocking pavements. Driving aggressively. Speeding. Failing to stop. Polluting the air. If they hit you, you are seriously injured or dead. This happens in the thousands. The city absolutely revolves around them.",
">\n\nYou are 100% right. Except I didn't say bicycles are the problem. I said i hate them. I said fuck cars too. I also said bicycles are one of the best alternative for trafic jam in cities.\nCities in Europe weren't made for cars nor bikes. So the problem is the fucking lazy greedy people who decide how to spend our tax money. The problem is people thinking they are all alone on the street. The problem is how stressed everybody is and how it become dangerous.\nNot because I hate how cyclists take revenge from drivers bullies to pedestrians makes me hate a transportation model itself.",
">\n\nIt just seems odd that people can really harp on about cyclists when they are such a trivial issue. Posts like this can get hundreds of replies. People tend to make excuses about cars.",
">\n\nYou just insulted a whole country.",
">\n\nThe Netherlands? It's ok",
">\n\nOk",
">\n\nI judge the actions of the individual not the mode of transport. I find it produces more accurate results.",
">\n\nApparently \"individuals alone are responsible for their own actions\" is the real unpopular opinion here.",
">\n\nIndeed 😀",
">\n\nAs a car driver I also hate cyclists. Saw one on a 45mph the other day despite there being a sidewalk AND a bikelane",
">\n\n45 mph isn't a speed for bike lane or sidewalk. Street is",
">\n\nas a cyclist, I hate pedestrians.\nMy city put in these nice protected bicycle lanes so bikes don't have to ride inches from cars, and boy don't those pedestrians just LOVE using the bike lane as a queuing up spot for the crosswalks. it's just so nice and convenient to get 5 more feet closer to your goal, isn't it? Those bicycles can stop and wait...and feel free to swear at them like THEY are the ones in the wrong.\nBicycles and pedestrians are natural enemies, that's never going to change. There can be only one.",
">\n\nLET'S END THIS NOW !!!!!",
">\n\nanyplace but Holy Ground.",
">\n\ndon't blame all bicyclists for the shitty ones.\nthat would be like saying every person who drives a car is an asshole. or every person who walks on the sidewalk is an asshole.\nsome people are good at getting around. other people are jerks. don't blame everyone for the actions of a small subset of people.",
">\n\nI mean, isn’t that the sentiment over that the popular sub r/fuckcars? The generalization is already being perpetuated from cyclists and “urbanists” in their war against cars.",
">\n\nNot really. That sub mostly hates the focus on cars when designing infrastructure, as well as the forced dependency on cars in our modern world. Not individual drivers.",
">\n\nSure about that? It’s mostly just a bitch-fest about driver errors to further their political agenda.",
">\n\nYea, I'm pretty sure.",
">\n\nReally weird way to get there if that’s the case. Alienating a large portion of the population (car drivers, car riders, people that depend on vehicles for the delivery of goods and services) is not how you get them on your side.",
">\n\nI don't think that's their goal in the first place. It's just a reddit sub.",
">\n\nEspecially when they have a stupid fucking bell and say \"on the left\" then proceed to be on the right side of the trail running into you",
">\n\nHahahha \"is he coming on the left or should i go on the lef...\" BANG!!",
">\n\nGF lives in a college town. It’s as if there’s some kinda fuckin’ death wish among the student cycling population",
">\n\nAs a [insert anyone, including cyclist], I hate cyclists.",
">\n\nPeople don't wanna hear it when it comes from automobilists because \"gngn cars are more dangerous and drivers are entitled\" but reality is cyclists are just the worst. Whether I'm on foot, driving a car, or riding a bicycle myself, cyclists are always always the ones being absolute public hazards. Heck, when I'm on my bike and stop at the stop sign on a cycle lane to let the cars go, they look at me as if I'm jesus or something. They even try to let me pass first because of how used they are to cyclists who just can't be bothered to respect the damn stop sign.",
">\n\nThe problem isn't the cyclists here, it's the lacking infrastructure.",
">\n\nWe shouldn't have to build infrastructure so people can partake in recreation. I find that comment extremely arrogant. Why on earth do cyclists deserve to have their recreation glorified and catered to??",
">\n\nRecreation? Ah yes, cycling is only for recreation.",
">\n\nWell, where I live that I'd the ONLY purpose. I'm 17 miles from any city municipality. Nobody is biking here to go to the grocery store or work.",
">\n\nNot everything is about you personally.",
">\n\nTo me, it is, and should be. My concern is around how cyclists inconvenience me while I'm trying to be a productive member of society. I feel like that's a fair critique.",
">\n\nYou are mad that cyclists inconvenience you yet you reject dedicated infrastructure as a solution. Do you think cyclists should be banned off the road completely?",
">\n\nThe real issue here is lacking cycling infrastructure.",
">\n\nDefinitely a major issue.\nBut part of the issue is definitely cyclists who prioritize their own speed over the safety and welfare of everyone around them. It's like they are all BMW drivers, deep down, and just don't want to yield to or slow down for anyone.",
">\n\nI'm sure there are, assholes exist in all vehicle types.",
">\n\nCyclists know thar neither the pavement nor the road are theirs because motorists and pedestrians like you are both screaming at them all the time. And I swear you'd be angrier if they didn't give a polite warning that they're coming toward you. \nCyclists who breeze through crossings instead of stopping are a minority, much like cyclists are a minority in general, and you can't judge an entire group that aren't adequately represented",
">\n\nFuck traveling in general",
">\n\nYa. Where are our transporters! \nSorry had to go full nerd.",
">\n\nI see posts like this constantly. It blows my mind people can just choose one thing that is so insignificant to scapegoat. \nThey assume people on bikes don’t also walk, drive, etc like we are essentially subhuman for doing exercise / running errands in this way because they are inconvenienced for a few seconds. You realize we are human like you , right?\nPeople tell us to ride bicycles on the sidewalk when it’s illegal while others say not too. It’s usually against the law.\nThey tell us to ride closer to the right side of the road , so we get hit by a car door and yelled at again. \nThey’re mad that we give a verbal signal that we’re coming up on the left even though that’s the law. \nNow that I’m in Colorado I’m getting yelled at for the Idaho stop, which is completely legal. We yield to stop signs and temporarily stop at red lights only if it’s clear. It’s all to REDUCE CAR TRAFFIC. \nKeep in mind we are riding bicycles which in its own right REDUCES CAR TRAFFIC. \n80% of car trips are within 3 miles from your house. Everyone that rides a bike keeps you from being stuck behind them in traffic for longer then the 20 seconds you’re currently inconvenienced. It’s also mean parking closer to the front door of a shop. \nSo far I’ve had family members die from hit and runs and drunk drivers, but somehow cyclists are the most dangerous thing on the road today?! It’s not adding up.\nWhat is this really about?",
">\n\nI'm sorry for your losses. I never said bikers are the most dangerous things on the road. Saying this would be stupid. The problem in my city is the lack of respect from cyclists to pedestrians in a general way. I'm not even talking about drivers against EVERYTHING ON THE STREET.",
">\n\nI go out of my way to be respectful to everybody, and I’ve had nothing but kindness and respect from other cyclists .\nYou wanna blame everybody on a bicycle for all your problems when it’s really just about a few people who disrespected you. \nCyclists are drivers, walkers, etc. do they just jump on a bicycle and instantly become disrespectful?\nStill doesn’t make any logical sense.",
">\n\nDude you just don't get it.. i understand biking is your life.. but come on.\nI use to bike 40km per day to work. \nI don't have problems with people jumping on bikes. I simply hate the ones that are disrespectful.\nIs it too hard to understand? Just me venting coz I feel like a lot of bikers think they are on top of the citizen pyramid? \nI'm not venting about the system here, nor about cars.. just about some (yes some) bikers.\nAnd please there is no need to beg for upvotes on fuckcars how old are you?",
">\n\nI bet your fat.",
">\n\nOf course I fart !",
">\n\nTo you yours and to mine mine; I hate car users and their ilk who are filled with wonton waste and hate for all else who dare travel near them. I stop at all lights, halt for all signs, use a mirror, lights, and hand signals, pull over for cars coming my way so long as there is any room, and use what little biking infrastructure is available to me.\nMy taxes are waste and paid in folly for they assuredly go in portion to your reckless use of a powerful machine and not to my own reckless use of a small self-propelled stick on two wheels to separate lanes and keep them maintained. No, no, I must settle for the gutter and cry glee for that and be ashamed to move to the sidewalk when it suddenly ends and continues a block later down the road. \nFuck your car, your roads, and your selfish desire to pave the world and create cities with 60% of their coverage dedicated to driving a car, parking a car, and separating the world into places for cars and otherwise. You who drive faster and faster, in bigger and bigger cars. I loath you as you loath mine.",
">\n\nI wouldn’t hate cyclists if they didn’t act like road laws don’t apply to em in the city where I live. I’ve seen cyclists not even stop at red lights even with an almost full intersection, and ride the wrong way down one ways.\nEdit: I do wish the city where I live had more bike lanes but yeah.",
">\n\nIf you're going to hate someone, maybe hate the people actually doing those things.\nIf I see someone on a bike rush through a short break on a red light in an otherwise busy intersection, I shake my head and think they are an idiot. I think this while waiting for the light to turn green on my bike.\nSimilarly, when a car illegally stops in a bike lane (which happens ALL THE TIME by the way), I don't turn around and blame the cars moving along legally in the adjacent lane.",
">\n\nPedestrian are the worst.\nWhen i started using bicicle I was very polite: brake, ring, ask for permission. And what the large amount of people do? Ignore u, watch u in the eyes and take a step in the fucking middle of the trail (many many times! for real!), shout at you just because u exist. So.... At some point is fuck you all, I'm coming go out of the way. That's it",
">\n\n\nI will never drive nor park on a bike lane, always look into the mirror to be careful of one of you monkeys. So why can't you be careful when us peasants are walking?\n\nThis is dumb. Obviously there are plenty of cyclists who are careful and courteous about your safety. That's part of what a bell or \"watch out!\" (generally \"On your left\") is doing for you. And just because you are courteous to them doesn't mean everyone is. Is every driver a douchebag just because some of them crowd cyclists when and where the cyclist has the right to the road? No.",
">\n\nThe difference here is that generally car drivers are going to be held accountable for bad driving. This is in the form of dash cams, ANPR and red light cameras which catch drivers doing bad things and they can receive a fine or points on their licence. Cyclists currently can't be held accountable if they jump red lights or hit a car or pedestrian as there isn't anything that helps identify them. This is a big issue in cities. I live and work in London and see many cyclists jumping red lights and weaving around pedestrians crossing. Cars can't do this as most traffic lights have red light cameras that would catch this.\nDrivers as a collective (including me) are in no way perfect or even held to account 100% of the time, but I believe we need a system for cyclists to be held accountable too",
">\n\nYour way of thinking, while perfectly rational and natural, is outdated. Traffic law enforcement, like any other law enforcement, is less about the enforcement, and more about the prevention. Where I live, speed and red light cameras are clearly marked ahead so that the people who'd normally break the law follow it instead, making punishment unnecessary. \nSame could be done with cyclists. Sure, you could make every cyclist install a license plate, require a \"cycling license\", or install expensive cameras with facial identification software, but how about just make it so cyclists aren't incentivised to break the law in the first place? \nMake more useful cycling infrastructure, and more cyclists will use it. Make that infrastructure intersect with foot and motor traffic more safely and less often, and less collisions will happen.",
">\n\nI completely understand your point. However, a lot of money has gone into my local area for cycling infrastructure that most cyclists are using, but many are still choosing to break the rules as the rules are inconvenient. The infrastructure is not enough, there needs to be an incentive NOT to break the rules.\nIf you take a look at Chiswick High Road in London, England. They have created segregated cycle lanes from the traffic. These cycle lanes have their own lights and crossings to keep them safe from cars. However many cyclists just ignore the lights and just keep going into pedestrians. There is no punishment for them doing this as they can't be tracked. Personally I think every cyclist should have to register their bike (make it free to help encourage this) and then a new form of ANPR used to also catch cyclists in the act",
">\n\nPersonally I'd have no problem registering my bike for free, especially if I could use that same registration if it gets stolen, but registering something as mechanically simple and cheap as a bicycle is, in my opinion difficult if not impossible to do without making the bike mechanically complex and expensive, at which point most people would just switch to scooters.\nI don't live in London, but from what I've heard, by far the biggest threat in the city is still motorized traffic, namely cars and lorries, and so until that problem is no longer a problem, I wouldn't really do anything special about bikes. Maybe put some undercover bike cops near the most dangerous bike path/lane intersections to catch a few offenders and make an example out of them, but that's about it.",
">\n\nMost cars I’ve driven came equipped with brakes and a steering wheel. I don’t see the problem",
">\n\nA common take and a stupid one.\nThere are good and bad drivers, pedestrians, and cyclists. Hating any of them as a group because some of them do bad things is just dumb.",
">\n\nIf you followed the laws and stayed out of the bike lane as a pedestrian there would be no problem.",
">\n\nIf bicyclists followed the laws and stopped ignoring street signs/traffic lights there would be no problem.",
">\n\nDon’t see how this address the problem with pedestrians in bike lanes.",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Drivers pedestrians other cyclists. They're a scourge.",
">\n\nEvery word of this is pure wisdom.",
">\n\nAs a car driver, I too hate cyclists.\nI don't care who has 'right of way'. I'm in a car, you're not. If we collide, regardless of fault, you're the one that dies.\nDo you really want to die on the hill that says \"i can bike on the rode b/c it's legal\"?\nI might be in jail, but you're still dead.\nBikes don't belong on public roads. Unless there's a bike lane - aka, a pathway designed specifically for bikers.\nIt's FAR SAFER to bike on the sidewalk.",
">\n\nBe careful you’ll anger r/fuckcars",
">\n\nI recently got a bike in Japan and there isn't any room on the street to ride my bike. Most people are fine when I'm on the sidewalk, however, the worst ones are groups of 2 or more who try and take up as much space as possible allowing nobody to pass. Same with the people who constantly switch between the left and right side of the sidewalk. It's really annoying to see how little spacial awareness they have.",
">\n\nCyclists on the road don’t have to pass the same test as vehicles on the road, which is why they are so bad. If there was a test in order to cycle on the road then i think it would be alot better",
">\n\nWhy do you hate all cyclists when only some of them are rude/dangerous?",
">\n\nCope hehe",
">\n\nIt's the powered vehicles that kill most pedestrians.\nBut, sure, cyclists blahblah...",
">\n\nAs an occasional cyclist, I don't like you either.",
">\n\nI biked everywhere.....when I was a child. I'm an adult now and have an automobile. They are pretty neat.",
">\n\nWhen I used to have to walk to work I’d walk on the sidewalk and listen to music and one time this guy zipped right by me yelling almost knocking me over and flipped me off?? They act like they don’t have breaks lmao",
">\n\nholy smokes! glad you're ok",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Even cyclists.",
">\n\nAnd here i thought why the f pediatrician hate cyclists",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Even other cyclists.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist this thread is hilarious",
">\n\nAnyone got recommendations for how to be a nice, considerate cyclist besides being careful and non-entitled? I plan on starting when it gets warm outside.",
">\n\nNot unpopular",
">\n\nWhen I drive to work, I obey most of the rules. I just can't drive on some roads. That would either kill me at some point or I'd slow down a whole 60 km/h lane that's packed with traffic. When riding on the sidewalk, I always stop or get off my bike if it gets too crowded or the sidewalk narrows. But when no one is around I just keep driving normally, just slower than usual. I try to stay alert at all times and let everyone pass because I know I'm wrong here.\nAt one point there is a one-way street I'm not allowed to drive on, but as my alternatives are the same 60km/h road (but now also with rails) or a crowded sidewalk, I prefer the one-way street with maybe 4 cars per hour that I can easily avoid. After that there is finally a bike path until I get to work. There would be a legal route, but it would take twice, if not triple, the time.\nI also hate reckless cyclists. They have already endangered me and are often unfriendly assholes. I just don't have a death wish and don't want to drive a route in an hour if 20 minutes are possible in a safe way (If the brain gets used).",
">\n\nCyclists don’t care because unless they get injured there are no real consequences for their actions.\nI think that any vehicle, with or without any type of motor, should require a license to operate on a public roadway. Road legal bikes need to be held to quality standards, like cars, and should also be registered. If you wish to ride one on a public roadway it should have a number plate on it. You should have to pass a rider’s ed course proving that you know the rules of the road. There should be a test proving that you can control the vehicle and operate it safely, same as a car or motorcycle.",
">\n\nYeah I’ve nearly been run over from behind by cyclists on sidewalks too many times",
">\n\nIdk maybe my town is weird like everwhere on the internet and even in statistics you hear stuff like that but then I haven't really seen any cyclists run red lights ever and as someone who maybe not often but sometimes cycles, the last thing I'd do as a cyclist is run a red light like I don't wanna die?",
">\n\nOnly people that like cyclist.. are probably just other cyclists.",
">\n\nI don’t mind normal, law-abiding cyclists at all. I just despise the ones that think they can choose whether to act like a car or pedestrian whenever they feel like it. Or worse, they don’t know the actual laws but think they are special just because they are riding a bike.",
">\n\nSometimes I feel like I am the only one watching out for pedestrians. For example when there's a crosswalk coming up that goes over the bike path and there's someone waiting, I always yield and the person waiting is often surprised since most people on bicycles just carry on. So not all cyclists are like that.",
">\n\nAs a pedestrian, cyclist and driver, I hate taxis.",
">\n\nI once almost got hit by a cyclist who failed to stop at a stop sign",
">\n\nCyclist have it both ways which isn’t fair. They can drive on the road AND the sidewalk and use pedestrian crossings when they feel like it. It’s like they have no road rules once on a bike. \nOn the sidewalk I have to get outta the way? No bikeperson. You shouldn’t even be on the sidewalk in the first place! Maybe if you’re under 10 but otherwise drive your vehicle on the road like all other adults!"
] |
>
You must be from New York lol fuck the cyclists up there
|
[
"I road cycled for years, I always followed the street rules. Always. Red light means red light. \nI have so many cycling friends who get into accidents and other conflicts with drivers, and yet they think it’s stupid to stop at a red light. They just don’t connect these two things",
">\n\nMost bikers I encounter are complete idiots. Like I'd be driving normally and out of nowhere comes a biker on a crosswalk in full speed. Now, I appreciate bikers who actually stop and make eye contact with me as I'm driving towards the crosswalk but man, it's either that or the biker almost dies because I have no time to brake.\nAnd what's up with all the bikers going like 5 kmh IN THE MIDDLE of a road when there's a dedicated sidewalk for bikers right next to them? Drives me insane.",
">\n\nIt seems like most bikers because of observation bias.\nIf you follow the rules as you should, you’re unmemorable.\nAs for the sidewalks - its actually less safe on the sidewalk.",
">\n\nInteresting. Dangerous situations are more valuable to remember, and I remember tons of irresponsible bikers. It is in fact observation bias. But I'm always happy to see those who pay close attention to traffic, and I do remeber some of them aswell.",
">\n\nWell the same goes for driving. How many cars do you remember when they haven’t done anything? But you tend to remember the ones who do something dumb",
">\n\nYeah it can be applied to anything really.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist in one of the most bike-dense cities in the world, I hate cyclists too. If I could avoid getting myself hurt, I’d be ramming at least ten of them a day just to teach a lesson about ignoring rules and common sense.",
">\n\nAmsterdam? Copenhagen?",
">\n\nCopenhagen. It’s a wonderful bike city but the people are incredibly self-centered.",
">\n\nI had high expectations from cyclists when I first visited the city, after all it is heralded as a cycling paradise and, well, let’s say it looked a lot more like the rest of the world and mainly because of the personal behavior of cyclists.\nMy local friend justified it, stating that it’s because danish are more temperamental than all other Scandinavians: an explanation that I really didn’t know what to do with…",
">\n\nIf “temperamental” means “a bunch of egotistical [insert unflattering body part]”, he’s right.",
">\n\nYou make it sound like a war zone. I live in Copenhagen and most of the time biking around the city is very pleasant. Except for the food delivery scooters, they can 🤬 off.",
">\n\nI guess it depends on how often and where you’re going. If you have places to be each and every day and want to get there effectively, people ignoring general rules and courtesies of the road are a pain. If you’re one of the types listening to podcasts with a latte in one hand and a phone in the other just trudging along, it’s probably fine.",
">\n\nSame! I love walking. Where I live on popular trails, there are bike lanes, but the cyclists will just ride wherever they. They don’t care and won’t let you know they’re coming. They’ll get pissy if you don’t just automatically know they’re coming up from behind you. If you do much as step foot in the bike lane, they get mad, but have no problems riding side by side outside the bike lane.",
">\n\nSame here! So much for my pleasant walk on the beautiful Trail. They sneak up and when they're almost on top of me, a loud voice yells \"On your left!\" They startle the shit out of me and cause me to jump sky high! 😡",
">\n\nIt’s literally the law to say that. This thread is all about hating them no matter if they follow the law or not.",
">\n\nIs it possible to do that without sneaking up on them and startling the shit out of them by yelling real loud? And then cutting is close to them as you possibly can without hitting them?",
">\n\nHello. \nMy useless comment to this post is here :D\nSo, i work in the accidents department of a big insurance company. My country is very strickt about the road rules, meaning:\nOur company estimates (is this the right word?) that around 82% of accidents involving cyclists, are to blame on the cyclist. Since there are expecific places on the road for you to ride your bike, even if it's not a bike lane.\nI remember a case where 3 dudes were just cycling, outside of town and they were literally on the middle of the road. the place where they were is full of curves and has very little visibility, so they were riding side by side, middle of the road, comes a car, hits not one, but the 3 of them because they scared the person and she just swerved the car.\nThey sued her and us (insurance) 2 times. Lost both and had to pay for all damage done on the car by their own bodys",
">\n\nThis sounds like something that happened near by my home town, are you in Ontario?",
">\n\nno XD portugal",
">\n\nGod its so much worse that it's happened in multiple places.\nIn ours I think the driver killed one of the cyclists, then sued the family for emotional damage",
">\n\nMy biggest gripe about cyclists is that there is always some danger when you encounter them on the road, either as a pedestrian or motorist. Now, part of it isn’t their fault. At least here in the US, not much of the infrastructure is made for bicycles. But cyclists are constantly breaking the rules of the road (or sidewalk) to get where they’re going faster. Blowing red lights, leaving the bike lane to use the sidewalk, splitting lanes. I always clench a little when I approach one, wondering if this is the day I can’t get out of the way.",
">\n\nWe have that same problem, but then a million times worse, because I live in The Netherlands. You probably know about our proud cycling culture (the Amsterdam stereotype). And yes, cyclists here are just as bad as the ones you describe, but there’s a lot more of them here. And oh yeah, traffic laws are almost always in their favor.",
">\n\nI found driving in the towns of the Netherlands so hard. Not just because I was on the wrong side of the road 😉 but because I just wasn’t used to sooo many cyclists coming from all directions, always faster than me and passing on both sides. Even as I was signalling to leave a roundabout at one point about three cyclists rode past on the inside. I really struggled to keep up with them all, which of course means I drove slower and thus even more bikes passed me!",
">\n\nYes that is of course very difficult, however as a Dutchman I’m used to cyclists, so of course we struggle a lot less. But that doesn’t take away from the fact that cyclists do cause a lot of issues because of their careless behavior, and because as drivers we have to accommodate them. That one sided ‘deal’ that we have makes it very difficult to deal with them.\nAll in all I’m happy we have so many cyclists as it’s good for the environment. But the utopian mindset of cyclists being a gift to the world is just stupid. Especially when you consider that mostly Americans who drive on wide open roads with barely any cyclists around are the ones praising cyclists in my country all the time. Also, cyclists annoy the hell out of pedestrians as well, so it’s not just about motorists.",
">\n\nCyclists treat red lights like stop signs and stop signs like yield signs (at best). They’re not allowed on sidewalks but do it anyway. Fuckin hate cyclists.",
">\n\nEverything you said is completely legal in Denver and sidewalks are illegal , but drivers constantly scream at cyclists to ride there",
">\n\nCyclist can roll stop signs and run red lights in Denver? What the fuck?",
">\n\nI’d have no problem if cyclist had respect for other road users. where I live there are cycle lanes, but most cyclists are on the road or pavements, they ignore red lights etc. \nIf you want to cycle please make it’s safe for yourself and others around you.",
">\n\nExactly my thoughts",
">\n\nHonestly, selfish assholes exist everywhere but a selfish asshole on a bicycle does a lot less damage than a selfish asshole in a car. \nEDIT: OP's also downvoting everyone who disagrees with him, just fyi.",
">\n\nAs a pedestrian, I hate everyone who's not a pedestrian... And some pedestrians too.",
">\n\nThere's a reason so many cyclists die each year, they all seem to pick and choose which laws they want to follow. Its always safer to assume they'll do whatever they want and everyone else needs to adapt to them.",
">\n\nAs a driver downtown, I don't worry at all about pedestrians at intersections, I can turn my head and assume they will be maybe five feet closer to my car when I look back, (and I trust they won't sprint towards me when I look away, at their own peril), but bikes, they ride so fast, that in the short time I turn my head to check for oncoming traffic, a bike could materialize right beside / infront me, and I risk hitting them or them hitting the side of my car. And that's even in their designated bike lane, that I have to pass through to clear the intersection. And if I drive into a ped at three miles per hour, they will just hit my hood with their fist and call me a stupid motherfucker, or whatever makes them feel justice was served, but if I bump the bike, it will be a big crash, the bicyclist will be all curled up in a ball on the ground, I'll be the bad guy in the eyes of the law and anyone nearby, and I'll probably be late as fuck to wherever it is I'm trying to go to.",
">\n\nI skateboard so I guess I'm good",
">\n\nJust don’t inconvenience narcissistic car drivers by a few seconds.",
">\n\nI think everyone hates cyclists. Cyclists included.",
">\n\nAs a driver, I hate you both",
">\n\nPedestrians are literally the worst. Anyone who has to walk more than 20 feet a day and not to their car are complete losers, and should be jailed on site.",
">\n\nOK, I think that's a bit extreme. But hey, if you're running for public office I'll vote for you. \nI do have to wonder anytime I see someone that I know has the mental faculties to drive who is walking. Usually assume too many DUI's.",
">\n\nr/fuckcars ripping out their hair rn",
">\n\nNot unpopular.\n Everyone hates cyclists.",
">\n\nI casually cycle in the summer. If I'm on a trail, I'll slow down and ring my bell if I see pedestrians, or stop and dismount if there's a lot of people or they don't notice me. Especially on the narrow trails in this woodlot I sometimes go to. \nThe problem is a lot of cyclists, especially in North America, but perhaps other places, just aren't respectful of others. They demand car drivers \"share the road\", but then ride in huge packs, lane split, don't signal turns, run stop signs and red lights, weave in and out of traffic, boot up busy sidewalks at 15-20mph, refuse to use provided bike lanes, etc. There's like a gross sense of entitlement in the cycling community. Dude, you're still a vehicle. There's rules that apply to you, just like there are for cars and motorcycles. Big problem is difficulty/lack of enforcement. Cops have to catch them in the act. Even then they're slippery devils since they're usually more mobile than a cruiser or beat cop on foot. This is why I support plating bikes to make them easily identifiable.",
">\n\n\nThere's like a gross sense of entitlement in the cycling community. Dude, you're still a vehicle. There's rules that apply to you, just like there are for cars and motorcycles.\n\nThat is the problem right there. They want to be treated equal to car owners, yet they do not abide by traffic rules, hence all the accidents.",
">\n\nAs a driver, I concur.",
">\n\nI hate bikers on trails. They're supposed to stop and let hikers by but they never do. They go by so freakin' fast too. It's like come on now!",
">\n\nAs a mostly former cyclist, I often hated cyclists too. Mostly, because so many cyclist are just competitive asshats that suck the pleasure out of their own bike ride by making everything about speed. Like, heaven forbid they have to slow and yield to anyone.\nOnce, I was riding my bicycle with my young daughter on a bike path in the city. A couple cyclist came up and got all pissy at us, saying we need to be out of the cycle lane because we were going too slow and my 8 year old kid wasn't keeping to a narrow lane. It was so hostile - my kid started crying.\nBut that is just so typical, all the time. I've gotten yelled out a few times when I made a full, foot down stop at a redlight because the cyclist behind me was expecting me to either run the redlight or at least go into the crosswalk and dance around (like they do) until it went green. I remember nearly getting run over by cyclists all the time, and yelled at if I was going too slow.\nThat being said, we need to do 100,000 x more in the US towards making bike paths, protected bike lanes, etc., because cyling is a truly great way to get around and I miss it. I just don't miss the self-centered asshats that dominate the cycling community.",
">\n\nThis!",
">\n\nI’ve nothing against cyclists as a group. I prefer to hate all people who do stupid things whether they’re in cars, on bikes or walking. Went to pick my daughter up tonight and counted six cyclists in the dark wearing all black with no lights at all plus one with a light so weak I didn’t see it until I was nearly past him. Tonight it was dumb cyclists, but tomorrow it might be idiots in cars. Hate the idiots not the method of transportation.",
">\n\nTrue !",
">\n\nOMG YES !! I completely agree. Every time i tried to explain this to a friend, they would always look at me like I am crazy for thinking such a thing. But as I walk for 45 minutes every days, it became a reality you can't ignore... I can't count how many times I nearly got hit by a cyclist, it happens every other week. I am starting to think that cyclists should have to go through a \"course\" to learn the basics of using the streets x)\n(Sorry for mistakes, not native here 'x) )",
">\n\nThis is my story lol..",
">\n\nYes, and it also is my personal experience, which is why I posted this..?",
">\n\nYes I totally agree. Just saying \"that's my life\" :) happening in Brussels tho",
">\n\nMy bad x) welp France here, it amazes me in a really bad way how this seems to be such a common phenomenon literaly EVERYWHERE",
">\n\nJ'ai roulé en vélo à Paris et laisse tomber l'enfer que c'était. J'avais l'impression d'avancer avec des oies qui insultaient tout le monde. BAa bAAA BAaaAa !!! \nLe problème c'est que plus les gens sont stressés (même les piétons... Genre dans le metro) plus ils se haïssent et ce matin j'avais la haine sur les vélos.. en vrai j'ai la haine sur tous les citadins haha",
">\n\nas a cyclist I hate everyone",
">\n\nSame, I see posts like this where people tell us to ride on the sidewalk when it’s illegal. \nThey assume we don’t walk anywhere, drive, etc like we are essentially subhuman for doing exercise.\nThey tell us to ride closer to the right side of the road so we get hit by a car door. \nThey’re mad that we give a verbal signal that we’re coming up on the left even though that’s the law. \nnow that I’m in Colorado I’m getting yelled at for the Idaho stop, which is completely legal. We yield to stop signs and temporarily stop at red light only till it’s clear. It’s all to REDUCE CAR TRAFFIC.\nSo far I’ve had family members die from hit and runs and drunk drivers, but somehow cyclists are the most dangerous thing on the road today.\nWhat is this really about?",
">\n\nI loathe cyclists. Selfish, entitled lycra lunatics.",
">\n\nBe honest, do you realize that it's possible to ride a bicycle and not be selfish, or entitled, or a lunatic, or not wear lycra?",
">\n\nThis thread is such a circlejerk, it's ridiculous.",
">\n\nThat's what I'm here for",
">\n\nIt's because cycling isn't regulated like motor vehicles are but they still get on the roads unlike pedestrians. So they don't have knowledge on the rules of the road that drivers have.\nThere's also some sort of hypocrisy they have where they believe drivers should give way to them because bikes are more vulnerable than cars while expecting pedestrians to give way to them because they're moving faster.",
">\n\n\nSo they don't have knowledge on the rules of the road\n\nPlenty do. Many cyclists also are automobilists. They just feel like they're exempted from respecting trafic rules because it's tiring to stop and go on a bike and they're slower an lighter than cars.",
">\n\nSure you got hit by a truck, but at least you managed to save yourself a little time and avoid waiting for a few seconds. Is what I'd say if they didn't then end up in the hospital",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists, as it should be.",
">\n\nCyclists shouldn’t be on sidewalks",
">\n\nI also cringe a lot when I see the international Reddit community constantly praise us Dutch people for our biking culture. People have no idea how many traffic accidents we get that could have been avoided if we didn’t have cyclists EVERYWHERE who are barely aware of the traffic rules that also apply to them.\nPeople have no idea about how cyclists are almost always right according to our traffic laws, which makes them much more reckless. They cause millions of dollars of damage to cars (and pedestrians) each year, and barely ever face consequences for their irresponsible and reckless behavior in traffic.\nPeople don’t see how cyclists often block traffic because they like to cycle next to each other in pairs, and if you honk they get angry and sometimes even aggressive and try to break your side mirror if they feel like it.\nMany intersections have bicycle lanes that you need to check when making a turn when driving, even though the intersection is already super busy with lots of cars. And guess what, cyclists still ride around fast and recklessly and making sure you don’t hit another car, cyclist AND pedestrian is all the job of one single driver.\nSo all in all, people from countries where driving is a relatively easy and chill thing to do, praise cycling culture in other countries. Try to drive here in busy traffic with thousands of cars AND (RECKLESS) CYCLISTS on the road and then tell me what it’s like.",
">\n\nIt would be much easier to sympathize with cars drivers if they did not need like 60% of the entire transit space leaving cyclists and pedestrians very little.\n\neven though the intersection is already super busy with lots of cars\n\nOfc, because cars are so large and need so much space.",
">\n\nI get that, but why is that my fault? I don’t do the city planning. Besides, cars are much larger than bicycles, so doesn’t it make sense there’s more space needed for cars than for bicycles?\nBut even then, if you don’t want to have any sympathy for motorists, because city planners give them more space than others, that’s just weird. It’s not the motorist’s fault.",
">\n\n\ndoesn’t it make sense there’s more space needed for cars than for bicycles?\n\nWhy a valuable and scarce resource such as the public space in cities should be used predominantly to benefit car users while barring everyone else? \nI just find it much harder to sympathize with the privileged group.",
">\n\nBecause people need to be able to go from A to B?",
">\n\nSo do pedestrians/public transport users/cyclists. But they don't require so much space per person.",
">\n\nWell in The Netherlands public transportation takes up an enormous amount of space and cyclists have their own dedicated lanes almost everywhere. Also motorists have to give public transportation space as we usually have to stop for trams and buses to pass, according to traffic rules. Guess who doesn’t often follow those rules: cyclists.\nHowever, public transportation itself is super busy and unbelievably expensive in The Netherlands. It costs more than 20 Euros to travel ~70 kilometers. That’s why a lot of people still prefer to have a car, and cars simply need infrastructure.\nSo I don’t really get your point. Cars, bicycles and public transportation all get a fair portion of the space that’s available.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist, i hate pedestrians. Here in Germany, there is bike lanes, one part for bikes and one for pedestrians on traffic lights... etc. But the pedestrians just ignore them, form \"walls\" of people blocking the bike lane, dont look while crossing the bike lane. Even cars repect us more than you.",
">\n\nThis I understand. Experienced the same in Denmark",
">\n\nClaaaaaarksoooooonnnnn",
">\n\nIdk about other places but here cyclists are constantly breaking the law and never getting ticketed for it. It makes no sense to me. I don’t think it’d make a huge difference but I do think some cyclists would think twice about disregarding the rules if those rules were actually enforced.",
">\n\nI get the sentiment. My feeling is the root cause is they don’t have their own infrastructure. Cars and peds do. So cyclists are always forced into a non ideal path. \nI’m aware they have rights to the road but cars and bikes really struggle to share an infrastructure clearly made for cars. \nSo if we invest in cycling infrastructure everyone would probably be happier.",
">\n\ndoubt it. In my city there is an asphalt bike path for miles that is like 8 feet wide. Smooth. No stop signs. Do they use it? nope they get their collective ass out on the street and I honestly don't have a clue why.\nIt defies logic. Safter, smooth, not cars/trunks, etc. Here they are out on the street just fiddle farting down a 45 mph road like they own it with a bike path 15 feet away with no one on it. The last guy I asked said \"It is my road as well you know\" that I ran up on while I was at a crossing while riding on the path myself. I just gave up trying to understand. Someone dies on that road every couple of months from bike or pedestrian strike with a vehicle. It was the whole reason they built the path....",
">\n\nWell in my experience there are 2 thing going on there.\na) Often bikers will avoid the path because peds often share or walk across those paths and their speed is closer to that of a car than a ped or \nb) If they are commuting...the path likely isn't going exactly where they need to.\nAs to your specific scenario I don't doubt there are bikers that are hard headed and stubborn. I know a few of those. But generally I do bikers using the infrastructure where we have built it.",
">\n\nThere's an accident here involving @ car running over a cyclist who crossed a red traffic light. And guess who take the blame?",
">\n\nLaughs in being dutch",
">\n\nIt is regrettable that a handful of asshole cyclists ruins everyone’s opinion of us. It really undermines the support needed to improve infrastructure for cycling. \nIf it is any help, when i ring my bell, I am doing so to avoid the alternatives of either yelling a warning or startling people. I normally exit the path and pass on the grass. I would say that most cyclist are the same. I don’t want you to get out of the way, I want you to know I am there. \nBut it only takes a couple assholes that think they own the path or the street. I have a cousin like this and it is difficult to convince him his is wrong and is putting himself and others in danger.",
">\n\nI think the a-holes are people that are only on a bike because it's the easiest thing for them, living where they do. You and those like you are on the bike because you love cycling.",
">\n\nI live in Portland, OR, and the cyclists here are so fucking rude and entitled.",
">\n\nI live in not-Portland OR and visited once. I biked down the road. Could not believe how nice everyone was to me. Probably because they could tell I’m an outsider.",
">\n\nI meant how they treat everyone else who isn't on a bike, tbh.",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists and it's for a simple reason. They think they can do whatever the hell they want. They switch between a pedestrian, a cyclist and a vehicle deciding on the fly whatever rules they feel like following with no accountability. \nOne minute they are skipping traffic, then they are deciding to cross at a crosswalk instead of following traffic. And the sidewalks are bike lanes if that's more convenient.",
">\n\nI just get annoyed because they will ride double wide on a tight street, forcing you to go 60mph in a 45, on the opposite side of traffic, risking a head on collision. And yea, you have to do that, because otherwise cars behind you will start driving aggressive as well as the fact that your expecting all the cars to go at a bikes speed on the road.",
">\n\nThat's because every country except for the Netherlands and Denmark have shit bicycle infrastructure.",
">\n\nI civilised countries we have cycling paths and cycling on the street is also possible as drivers aren't insane. So this seems rather like a problem of poor urban planning than cyclists in general.",
">\n\nWhere I live the cyclists just refuse to take the bikelane and either block the traffic because the rather use the street or they decide to use the pedestrian side of the sidewalk. The frickin bikelane is as big as the pedestrian one. There is no excuse not to use it and they still won't! One of them almost hit me if I hadn't dodge it. If the cyclist only drove a few inches to the left there would have been a bikelane and it wouldn't happened. Of course the person didn't apologize and just cursed at me.",
">\n\nBike gutters are awful and less safe than taking the lane. Assholes park in the bike lanes ALL THE TIME. Plus no one ever looks behind them when getting out pf their car so getting smacked by a door is a real danger. Drivers are entitled but it’s not their fault it’s the way we’ve built society to allow and expect them to be.\nETA: next time you’re driving around take a count how many people you see pulled over or parked in a bike gutter.",
">\n\nCompletely agree - I was ran over almost 3 times in Berlin. \nAnd every single time I checked before crossing - but they just suddenly spawned right in the way",
">\n\nDid you cross at a designated crosswalk? As a cyclist the amount of times people just randomly meander across an active street instead of going to the zebra/lollipop crossing, and then get angry at me when I have to swerve out the way/ brake is comical.",
">\n\nMan, y'all are sad people. \n\"Get off the road!\" Okay, now we are on the sidewalk. \n\"Get off the sidewalk!\" Back in the road again. \n\"They need to ring their bells so we know they're coming! Btw I hate it when they ring their bells so I know they're coming.\"",
">\n\nI hate cyclists like that. I don’t have a car so my bike is my main source of transportation and I don’t ride like that. So far, from what I’ve noticed in my area, I’m the only one that follows the damn rules in my city xD",
">\n\nNo matter where you are and who you are… driver or walker, scooter or flyer… we ALL hate cyclists.",
">\n\nI feel ya. The only thing I hate more than cyclists is electric scooters.",
">\n\nCompletely agree! A cycling license (similar to driving) should be required. Far too many cyclist who doesn’t know (and those who don’t just give a F) about traffic rules.",
">\n\nI completely agree! Cyclists have a lot of rights on the roads, and are very vocal about them, but think they can do whatever the fuck they want at roundabouts and pedestrian crossings.",
">\n\nIt just fascinates me how anyone can walk or drive through a city and genuinely think that bicycles are the problem. Look around you at every turn there are cars jamming the roads. Parked blocking things. Blocking pavements. Driving aggressively. Speeding. Failing to stop. Polluting the air. If they hit you, you are seriously injured or dead. This happens in the thousands. The city absolutely revolves around them.",
">\n\nYou are 100% right. Except I didn't say bicycles are the problem. I said i hate them. I said fuck cars too. I also said bicycles are one of the best alternative for trafic jam in cities.\nCities in Europe weren't made for cars nor bikes. So the problem is the fucking lazy greedy people who decide how to spend our tax money. The problem is people thinking they are all alone on the street. The problem is how stressed everybody is and how it become dangerous.\nNot because I hate how cyclists take revenge from drivers bullies to pedestrians makes me hate a transportation model itself.",
">\n\nIt just seems odd that people can really harp on about cyclists when they are such a trivial issue. Posts like this can get hundreds of replies. People tend to make excuses about cars.",
">\n\nYou just insulted a whole country.",
">\n\nThe Netherlands? It's ok",
">\n\nOk",
">\n\nI judge the actions of the individual not the mode of transport. I find it produces more accurate results.",
">\n\nApparently \"individuals alone are responsible for their own actions\" is the real unpopular opinion here.",
">\n\nIndeed 😀",
">\n\nAs a car driver I also hate cyclists. Saw one on a 45mph the other day despite there being a sidewalk AND a bikelane",
">\n\n45 mph isn't a speed for bike lane or sidewalk. Street is",
">\n\nas a cyclist, I hate pedestrians.\nMy city put in these nice protected bicycle lanes so bikes don't have to ride inches from cars, and boy don't those pedestrians just LOVE using the bike lane as a queuing up spot for the crosswalks. it's just so nice and convenient to get 5 more feet closer to your goal, isn't it? Those bicycles can stop and wait...and feel free to swear at them like THEY are the ones in the wrong.\nBicycles and pedestrians are natural enemies, that's never going to change. There can be only one.",
">\n\nLET'S END THIS NOW !!!!!",
">\n\nanyplace but Holy Ground.",
">\n\ndon't blame all bicyclists for the shitty ones.\nthat would be like saying every person who drives a car is an asshole. or every person who walks on the sidewalk is an asshole.\nsome people are good at getting around. other people are jerks. don't blame everyone for the actions of a small subset of people.",
">\n\nI mean, isn’t that the sentiment over that the popular sub r/fuckcars? The generalization is already being perpetuated from cyclists and “urbanists” in their war against cars.",
">\n\nNot really. That sub mostly hates the focus on cars when designing infrastructure, as well as the forced dependency on cars in our modern world. Not individual drivers.",
">\n\nSure about that? It’s mostly just a bitch-fest about driver errors to further their political agenda.",
">\n\nYea, I'm pretty sure.",
">\n\nReally weird way to get there if that’s the case. Alienating a large portion of the population (car drivers, car riders, people that depend on vehicles for the delivery of goods and services) is not how you get them on your side.",
">\n\nI don't think that's their goal in the first place. It's just a reddit sub.",
">\n\nEspecially when they have a stupid fucking bell and say \"on the left\" then proceed to be on the right side of the trail running into you",
">\n\nHahahha \"is he coming on the left or should i go on the lef...\" BANG!!",
">\n\nGF lives in a college town. It’s as if there’s some kinda fuckin’ death wish among the student cycling population",
">\n\nAs a [insert anyone, including cyclist], I hate cyclists.",
">\n\nPeople don't wanna hear it when it comes from automobilists because \"gngn cars are more dangerous and drivers are entitled\" but reality is cyclists are just the worst. Whether I'm on foot, driving a car, or riding a bicycle myself, cyclists are always always the ones being absolute public hazards. Heck, when I'm on my bike and stop at the stop sign on a cycle lane to let the cars go, they look at me as if I'm jesus or something. They even try to let me pass first because of how used they are to cyclists who just can't be bothered to respect the damn stop sign.",
">\n\nThe problem isn't the cyclists here, it's the lacking infrastructure.",
">\n\nWe shouldn't have to build infrastructure so people can partake in recreation. I find that comment extremely arrogant. Why on earth do cyclists deserve to have their recreation glorified and catered to??",
">\n\nRecreation? Ah yes, cycling is only for recreation.",
">\n\nWell, where I live that I'd the ONLY purpose. I'm 17 miles from any city municipality. Nobody is biking here to go to the grocery store or work.",
">\n\nNot everything is about you personally.",
">\n\nTo me, it is, and should be. My concern is around how cyclists inconvenience me while I'm trying to be a productive member of society. I feel like that's a fair critique.",
">\n\nYou are mad that cyclists inconvenience you yet you reject dedicated infrastructure as a solution. Do you think cyclists should be banned off the road completely?",
">\n\nThe real issue here is lacking cycling infrastructure.",
">\n\nDefinitely a major issue.\nBut part of the issue is definitely cyclists who prioritize their own speed over the safety and welfare of everyone around them. It's like they are all BMW drivers, deep down, and just don't want to yield to or slow down for anyone.",
">\n\nI'm sure there are, assholes exist in all vehicle types.",
">\n\nCyclists know thar neither the pavement nor the road are theirs because motorists and pedestrians like you are both screaming at them all the time. And I swear you'd be angrier if they didn't give a polite warning that they're coming toward you. \nCyclists who breeze through crossings instead of stopping are a minority, much like cyclists are a minority in general, and you can't judge an entire group that aren't adequately represented",
">\n\nFuck traveling in general",
">\n\nYa. Where are our transporters! \nSorry had to go full nerd.",
">\n\nI see posts like this constantly. It blows my mind people can just choose one thing that is so insignificant to scapegoat. \nThey assume people on bikes don’t also walk, drive, etc like we are essentially subhuman for doing exercise / running errands in this way because they are inconvenienced for a few seconds. You realize we are human like you , right?\nPeople tell us to ride bicycles on the sidewalk when it’s illegal while others say not too. It’s usually against the law.\nThey tell us to ride closer to the right side of the road , so we get hit by a car door and yelled at again. \nThey’re mad that we give a verbal signal that we’re coming up on the left even though that’s the law. \nNow that I’m in Colorado I’m getting yelled at for the Idaho stop, which is completely legal. We yield to stop signs and temporarily stop at red lights only if it’s clear. It’s all to REDUCE CAR TRAFFIC. \nKeep in mind we are riding bicycles which in its own right REDUCES CAR TRAFFIC. \n80% of car trips are within 3 miles from your house. Everyone that rides a bike keeps you from being stuck behind them in traffic for longer then the 20 seconds you’re currently inconvenienced. It’s also mean parking closer to the front door of a shop. \nSo far I’ve had family members die from hit and runs and drunk drivers, but somehow cyclists are the most dangerous thing on the road today?! It’s not adding up.\nWhat is this really about?",
">\n\nI'm sorry for your losses. I never said bikers are the most dangerous things on the road. Saying this would be stupid. The problem in my city is the lack of respect from cyclists to pedestrians in a general way. I'm not even talking about drivers against EVERYTHING ON THE STREET.",
">\n\nI go out of my way to be respectful to everybody, and I’ve had nothing but kindness and respect from other cyclists .\nYou wanna blame everybody on a bicycle for all your problems when it’s really just about a few people who disrespected you. \nCyclists are drivers, walkers, etc. do they just jump on a bicycle and instantly become disrespectful?\nStill doesn’t make any logical sense.",
">\n\nDude you just don't get it.. i understand biking is your life.. but come on.\nI use to bike 40km per day to work. \nI don't have problems with people jumping on bikes. I simply hate the ones that are disrespectful.\nIs it too hard to understand? Just me venting coz I feel like a lot of bikers think they are on top of the citizen pyramid? \nI'm not venting about the system here, nor about cars.. just about some (yes some) bikers.\nAnd please there is no need to beg for upvotes on fuckcars how old are you?",
">\n\nI bet your fat.",
">\n\nOf course I fart !",
">\n\nTo you yours and to mine mine; I hate car users and their ilk who are filled with wonton waste and hate for all else who dare travel near them. I stop at all lights, halt for all signs, use a mirror, lights, and hand signals, pull over for cars coming my way so long as there is any room, and use what little biking infrastructure is available to me.\nMy taxes are waste and paid in folly for they assuredly go in portion to your reckless use of a powerful machine and not to my own reckless use of a small self-propelled stick on two wheels to separate lanes and keep them maintained. No, no, I must settle for the gutter and cry glee for that and be ashamed to move to the sidewalk when it suddenly ends and continues a block later down the road. \nFuck your car, your roads, and your selfish desire to pave the world and create cities with 60% of their coverage dedicated to driving a car, parking a car, and separating the world into places for cars and otherwise. You who drive faster and faster, in bigger and bigger cars. I loath you as you loath mine.",
">\n\nI wouldn’t hate cyclists if they didn’t act like road laws don’t apply to em in the city where I live. I’ve seen cyclists not even stop at red lights even with an almost full intersection, and ride the wrong way down one ways.\nEdit: I do wish the city where I live had more bike lanes but yeah.",
">\n\nIf you're going to hate someone, maybe hate the people actually doing those things.\nIf I see someone on a bike rush through a short break on a red light in an otherwise busy intersection, I shake my head and think they are an idiot. I think this while waiting for the light to turn green on my bike.\nSimilarly, when a car illegally stops in a bike lane (which happens ALL THE TIME by the way), I don't turn around and blame the cars moving along legally in the adjacent lane.",
">\n\nPedestrian are the worst.\nWhen i started using bicicle I was very polite: brake, ring, ask for permission. And what the large amount of people do? Ignore u, watch u in the eyes and take a step in the fucking middle of the trail (many many times! for real!), shout at you just because u exist. So.... At some point is fuck you all, I'm coming go out of the way. That's it",
">\n\n\nI will never drive nor park on a bike lane, always look into the mirror to be careful of one of you monkeys. So why can't you be careful when us peasants are walking?\n\nThis is dumb. Obviously there are plenty of cyclists who are careful and courteous about your safety. That's part of what a bell or \"watch out!\" (generally \"On your left\") is doing for you. And just because you are courteous to them doesn't mean everyone is. Is every driver a douchebag just because some of them crowd cyclists when and where the cyclist has the right to the road? No.",
">\n\nThe difference here is that generally car drivers are going to be held accountable for bad driving. This is in the form of dash cams, ANPR and red light cameras which catch drivers doing bad things and they can receive a fine or points on their licence. Cyclists currently can't be held accountable if they jump red lights or hit a car or pedestrian as there isn't anything that helps identify them. This is a big issue in cities. I live and work in London and see many cyclists jumping red lights and weaving around pedestrians crossing. Cars can't do this as most traffic lights have red light cameras that would catch this.\nDrivers as a collective (including me) are in no way perfect or even held to account 100% of the time, but I believe we need a system for cyclists to be held accountable too",
">\n\nYour way of thinking, while perfectly rational and natural, is outdated. Traffic law enforcement, like any other law enforcement, is less about the enforcement, and more about the prevention. Where I live, speed and red light cameras are clearly marked ahead so that the people who'd normally break the law follow it instead, making punishment unnecessary. \nSame could be done with cyclists. Sure, you could make every cyclist install a license plate, require a \"cycling license\", or install expensive cameras with facial identification software, but how about just make it so cyclists aren't incentivised to break the law in the first place? \nMake more useful cycling infrastructure, and more cyclists will use it. Make that infrastructure intersect with foot and motor traffic more safely and less often, and less collisions will happen.",
">\n\nI completely understand your point. However, a lot of money has gone into my local area for cycling infrastructure that most cyclists are using, but many are still choosing to break the rules as the rules are inconvenient. The infrastructure is not enough, there needs to be an incentive NOT to break the rules.\nIf you take a look at Chiswick High Road in London, England. They have created segregated cycle lanes from the traffic. These cycle lanes have their own lights and crossings to keep them safe from cars. However many cyclists just ignore the lights and just keep going into pedestrians. There is no punishment for them doing this as they can't be tracked. Personally I think every cyclist should have to register their bike (make it free to help encourage this) and then a new form of ANPR used to also catch cyclists in the act",
">\n\nPersonally I'd have no problem registering my bike for free, especially if I could use that same registration if it gets stolen, but registering something as mechanically simple and cheap as a bicycle is, in my opinion difficult if not impossible to do without making the bike mechanically complex and expensive, at which point most people would just switch to scooters.\nI don't live in London, but from what I've heard, by far the biggest threat in the city is still motorized traffic, namely cars and lorries, and so until that problem is no longer a problem, I wouldn't really do anything special about bikes. Maybe put some undercover bike cops near the most dangerous bike path/lane intersections to catch a few offenders and make an example out of them, but that's about it.",
">\n\nMost cars I’ve driven came equipped with brakes and a steering wheel. I don’t see the problem",
">\n\nA common take and a stupid one.\nThere are good and bad drivers, pedestrians, and cyclists. Hating any of them as a group because some of them do bad things is just dumb.",
">\n\nIf you followed the laws and stayed out of the bike lane as a pedestrian there would be no problem.",
">\n\nIf bicyclists followed the laws and stopped ignoring street signs/traffic lights there would be no problem.",
">\n\nDon’t see how this address the problem with pedestrians in bike lanes.",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Drivers pedestrians other cyclists. They're a scourge.",
">\n\nEvery word of this is pure wisdom.",
">\n\nAs a car driver, I too hate cyclists.\nI don't care who has 'right of way'. I'm in a car, you're not. If we collide, regardless of fault, you're the one that dies.\nDo you really want to die on the hill that says \"i can bike on the rode b/c it's legal\"?\nI might be in jail, but you're still dead.\nBikes don't belong on public roads. Unless there's a bike lane - aka, a pathway designed specifically for bikers.\nIt's FAR SAFER to bike on the sidewalk.",
">\n\nBe careful you’ll anger r/fuckcars",
">\n\nI recently got a bike in Japan and there isn't any room on the street to ride my bike. Most people are fine when I'm on the sidewalk, however, the worst ones are groups of 2 or more who try and take up as much space as possible allowing nobody to pass. Same with the people who constantly switch between the left and right side of the sidewalk. It's really annoying to see how little spacial awareness they have.",
">\n\nCyclists on the road don’t have to pass the same test as vehicles on the road, which is why they are so bad. If there was a test in order to cycle on the road then i think it would be alot better",
">\n\nWhy do you hate all cyclists when only some of them are rude/dangerous?",
">\n\nCope hehe",
">\n\nIt's the powered vehicles that kill most pedestrians.\nBut, sure, cyclists blahblah...",
">\n\nAs an occasional cyclist, I don't like you either.",
">\n\nI biked everywhere.....when I was a child. I'm an adult now and have an automobile. They are pretty neat.",
">\n\nWhen I used to have to walk to work I’d walk on the sidewalk and listen to music and one time this guy zipped right by me yelling almost knocking me over and flipped me off?? They act like they don’t have breaks lmao",
">\n\nholy smokes! glad you're ok",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Even cyclists.",
">\n\nAnd here i thought why the f pediatrician hate cyclists",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Even other cyclists.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist this thread is hilarious",
">\n\nAnyone got recommendations for how to be a nice, considerate cyclist besides being careful and non-entitled? I plan on starting when it gets warm outside.",
">\n\nNot unpopular",
">\n\nWhen I drive to work, I obey most of the rules. I just can't drive on some roads. That would either kill me at some point or I'd slow down a whole 60 km/h lane that's packed with traffic. When riding on the sidewalk, I always stop or get off my bike if it gets too crowded or the sidewalk narrows. But when no one is around I just keep driving normally, just slower than usual. I try to stay alert at all times and let everyone pass because I know I'm wrong here.\nAt one point there is a one-way street I'm not allowed to drive on, but as my alternatives are the same 60km/h road (but now also with rails) or a crowded sidewalk, I prefer the one-way street with maybe 4 cars per hour that I can easily avoid. After that there is finally a bike path until I get to work. There would be a legal route, but it would take twice, if not triple, the time.\nI also hate reckless cyclists. They have already endangered me and are often unfriendly assholes. I just don't have a death wish and don't want to drive a route in an hour if 20 minutes are possible in a safe way (If the brain gets used).",
">\n\nCyclists don’t care because unless they get injured there are no real consequences for their actions.\nI think that any vehicle, with or without any type of motor, should require a license to operate on a public roadway. Road legal bikes need to be held to quality standards, like cars, and should also be registered. If you wish to ride one on a public roadway it should have a number plate on it. You should have to pass a rider’s ed course proving that you know the rules of the road. There should be a test proving that you can control the vehicle and operate it safely, same as a car or motorcycle.",
">\n\nYeah I’ve nearly been run over from behind by cyclists on sidewalks too many times",
">\n\nIdk maybe my town is weird like everwhere on the internet and even in statistics you hear stuff like that but then I haven't really seen any cyclists run red lights ever and as someone who maybe not often but sometimes cycles, the last thing I'd do as a cyclist is run a red light like I don't wanna die?",
">\n\nOnly people that like cyclist.. are probably just other cyclists.",
">\n\nI don’t mind normal, law-abiding cyclists at all. I just despise the ones that think they can choose whether to act like a car or pedestrian whenever they feel like it. Or worse, they don’t know the actual laws but think they are special just because they are riding a bike.",
">\n\nSometimes I feel like I am the only one watching out for pedestrians. For example when there's a crosswalk coming up that goes over the bike path and there's someone waiting, I always yield and the person waiting is often surprised since most people on bicycles just carry on. So not all cyclists are like that.",
">\n\nAs a pedestrian, cyclist and driver, I hate taxis.",
">\n\nI once almost got hit by a cyclist who failed to stop at a stop sign",
">\n\nCyclist have it both ways which isn’t fair. They can drive on the road AND the sidewalk and use pedestrian crossings when they feel like it. It’s like they have no road rules once on a bike. \nOn the sidewalk I have to get outta the way? No bikeperson. You shouldn’t even be on the sidewalk in the first place! Maybe if you’re under 10 but otherwise drive your vehicle on the road like all other adults!",
">\n\nI knew a cyclist who would always talk shit about cars. He told me he’s been hit TEN TIMES. UMMM?? If you’ve been hit ten times then it’s not the cars fault…"
] |
>
Amen brother
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[
"I road cycled for years, I always followed the street rules. Always. Red light means red light. \nI have so many cycling friends who get into accidents and other conflicts with drivers, and yet they think it’s stupid to stop at a red light. They just don’t connect these two things",
">\n\nMost bikers I encounter are complete idiots. Like I'd be driving normally and out of nowhere comes a biker on a crosswalk in full speed. Now, I appreciate bikers who actually stop and make eye contact with me as I'm driving towards the crosswalk but man, it's either that or the biker almost dies because I have no time to brake.\nAnd what's up with all the bikers going like 5 kmh IN THE MIDDLE of a road when there's a dedicated sidewalk for bikers right next to them? Drives me insane.",
">\n\nIt seems like most bikers because of observation bias.\nIf you follow the rules as you should, you’re unmemorable.\nAs for the sidewalks - its actually less safe on the sidewalk.",
">\n\nInteresting. Dangerous situations are more valuable to remember, and I remember tons of irresponsible bikers. It is in fact observation bias. But I'm always happy to see those who pay close attention to traffic, and I do remeber some of them aswell.",
">\n\nWell the same goes for driving. How many cars do you remember when they haven’t done anything? But you tend to remember the ones who do something dumb",
">\n\nYeah it can be applied to anything really.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist in one of the most bike-dense cities in the world, I hate cyclists too. If I could avoid getting myself hurt, I’d be ramming at least ten of them a day just to teach a lesson about ignoring rules and common sense.",
">\n\nAmsterdam? Copenhagen?",
">\n\nCopenhagen. It’s a wonderful bike city but the people are incredibly self-centered.",
">\n\nI had high expectations from cyclists when I first visited the city, after all it is heralded as a cycling paradise and, well, let’s say it looked a lot more like the rest of the world and mainly because of the personal behavior of cyclists.\nMy local friend justified it, stating that it’s because danish are more temperamental than all other Scandinavians: an explanation that I really didn’t know what to do with…",
">\n\nIf “temperamental” means “a bunch of egotistical [insert unflattering body part]”, he’s right.",
">\n\nYou make it sound like a war zone. I live in Copenhagen and most of the time biking around the city is very pleasant. Except for the food delivery scooters, they can 🤬 off.",
">\n\nI guess it depends on how often and where you’re going. If you have places to be each and every day and want to get there effectively, people ignoring general rules and courtesies of the road are a pain. If you’re one of the types listening to podcasts with a latte in one hand and a phone in the other just trudging along, it’s probably fine.",
">\n\nSame! I love walking. Where I live on popular trails, there are bike lanes, but the cyclists will just ride wherever they. They don’t care and won’t let you know they’re coming. They’ll get pissy if you don’t just automatically know they’re coming up from behind you. If you do much as step foot in the bike lane, they get mad, but have no problems riding side by side outside the bike lane.",
">\n\nSame here! So much for my pleasant walk on the beautiful Trail. They sneak up and when they're almost on top of me, a loud voice yells \"On your left!\" They startle the shit out of me and cause me to jump sky high! 😡",
">\n\nIt’s literally the law to say that. This thread is all about hating them no matter if they follow the law or not.",
">\n\nIs it possible to do that without sneaking up on them and startling the shit out of them by yelling real loud? And then cutting is close to them as you possibly can without hitting them?",
">\n\nHello. \nMy useless comment to this post is here :D\nSo, i work in the accidents department of a big insurance company. My country is very strickt about the road rules, meaning:\nOur company estimates (is this the right word?) that around 82% of accidents involving cyclists, are to blame on the cyclist. Since there are expecific places on the road for you to ride your bike, even if it's not a bike lane.\nI remember a case where 3 dudes were just cycling, outside of town and they were literally on the middle of the road. the place where they were is full of curves and has very little visibility, so they were riding side by side, middle of the road, comes a car, hits not one, but the 3 of them because they scared the person and she just swerved the car.\nThey sued her and us (insurance) 2 times. Lost both and had to pay for all damage done on the car by their own bodys",
">\n\nThis sounds like something that happened near by my home town, are you in Ontario?",
">\n\nno XD portugal",
">\n\nGod its so much worse that it's happened in multiple places.\nIn ours I think the driver killed one of the cyclists, then sued the family for emotional damage",
">\n\nMy biggest gripe about cyclists is that there is always some danger when you encounter them on the road, either as a pedestrian or motorist. Now, part of it isn’t their fault. At least here in the US, not much of the infrastructure is made for bicycles. But cyclists are constantly breaking the rules of the road (or sidewalk) to get where they’re going faster. Blowing red lights, leaving the bike lane to use the sidewalk, splitting lanes. I always clench a little when I approach one, wondering if this is the day I can’t get out of the way.",
">\n\nWe have that same problem, but then a million times worse, because I live in The Netherlands. You probably know about our proud cycling culture (the Amsterdam stereotype). And yes, cyclists here are just as bad as the ones you describe, but there’s a lot more of them here. And oh yeah, traffic laws are almost always in their favor.",
">\n\nI found driving in the towns of the Netherlands so hard. Not just because I was on the wrong side of the road 😉 but because I just wasn’t used to sooo many cyclists coming from all directions, always faster than me and passing on both sides. Even as I was signalling to leave a roundabout at one point about three cyclists rode past on the inside. I really struggled to keep up with them all, which of course means I drove slower and thus even more bikes passed me!",
">\n\nYes that is of course very difficult, however as a Dutchman I’m used to cyclists, so of course we struggle a lot less. But that doesn’t take away from the fact that cyclists do cause a lot of issues because of their careless behavior, and because as drivers we have to accommodate them. That one sided ‘deal’ that we have makes it very difficult to deal with them.\nAll in all I’m happy we have so many cyclists as it’s good for the environment. But the utopian mindset of cyclists being a gift to the world is just stupid. Especially when you consider that mostly Americans who drive on wide open roads with barely any cyclists around are the ones praising cyclists in my country all the time. Also, cyclists annoy the hell out of pedestrians as well, so it’s not just about motorists.",
">\n\nCyclists treat red lights like stop signs and stop signs like yield signs (at best). They’re not allowed on sidewalks but do it anyway. Fuckin hate cyclists.",
">\n\nEverything you said is completely legal in Denver and sidewalks are illegal , but drivers constantly scream at cyclists to ride there",
">\n\nCyclist can roll stop signs and run red lights in Denver? What the fuck?",
">\n\nI’d have no problem if cyclist had respect for other road users. where I live there are cycle lanes, but most cyclists are on the road or pavements, they ignore red lights etc. \nIf you want to cycle please make it’s safe for yourself and others around you.",
">\n\nExactly my thoughts",
">\n\nHonestly, selfish assholes exist everywhere but a selfish asshole on a bicycle does a lot less damage than a selfish asshole in a car. \nEDIT: OP's also downvoting everyone who disagrees with him, just fyi.",
">\n\nAs a pedestrian, I hate everyone who's not a pedestrian... And some pedestrians too.",
">\n\nThere's a reason so many cyclists die each year, they all seem to pick and choose which laws they want to follow. Its always safer to assume they'll do whatever they want and everyone else needs to adapt to them.",
">\n\nAs a driver downtown, I don't worry at all about pedestrians at intersections, I can turn my head and assume they will be maybe five feet closer to my car when I look back, (and I trust they won't sprint towards me when I look away, at their own peril), but bikes, they ride so fast, that in the short time I turn my head to check for oncoming traffic, a bike could materialize right beside / infront me, and I risk hitting them or them hitting the side of my car. And that's even in their designated bike lane, that I have to pass through to clear the intersection. And if I drive into a ped at three miles per hour, they will just hit my hood with their fist and call me a stupid motherfucker, or whatever makes them feel justice was served, but if I bump the bike, it will be a big crash, the bicyclist will be all curled up in a ball on the ground, I'll be the bad guy in the eyes of the law and anyone nearby, and I'll probably be late as fuck to wherever it is I'm trying to go to.",
">\n\nI skateboard so I guess I'm good",
">\n\nJust don’t inconvenience narcissistic car drivers by a few seconds.",
">\n\nI think everyone hates cyclists. Cyclists included.",
">\n\nAs a driver, I hate you both",
">\n\nPedestrians are literally the worst. Anyone who has to walk more than 20 feet a day and not to their car are complete losers, and should be jailed on site.",
">\n\nOK, I think that's a bit extreme. But hey, if you're running for public office I'll vote for you. \nI do have to wonder anytime I see someone that I know has the mental faculties to drive who is walking. Usually assume too many DUI's.",
">\n\nr/fuckcars ripping out their hair rn",
">\n\nNot unpopular.\n Everyone hates cyclists.",
">\n\nI casually cycle in the summer. If I'm on a trail, I'll slow down and ring my bell if I see pedestrians, or stop and dismount if there's a lot of people or they don't notice me. Especially on the narrow trails in this woodlot I sometimes go to. \nThe problem is a lot of cyclists, especially in North America, but perhaps other places, just aren't respectful of others. They demand car drivers \"share the road\", but then ride in huge packs, lane split, don't signal turns, run stop signs and red lights, weave in and out of traffic, boot up busy sidewalks at 15-20mph, refuse to use provided bike lanes, etc. There's like a gross sense of entitlement in the cycling community. Dude, you're still a vehicle. There's rules that apply to you, just like there are for cars and motorcycles. Big problem is difficulty/lack of enforcement. Cops have to catch them in the act. Even then they're slippery devils since they're usually more mobile than a cruiser or beat cop on foot. This is why I support plating bikes to make them easily identifiable.",
">\n\n\nThere's like a gross sense of entitlement in the cycling community. Dude, you're still a vehicle. There's rules that apply to you, just like there are for cars and motorcycles.\n\nThat is the problem right there. They want to be treated equal to car owners, yet they do not abide by traffic rules, hence all the accidents.",
">\n\nAs a driver, I concur.",
">\n\nI hate bikers on trails. They're supposed to stop and let hikers by but they never do. They go by so freakin' fast too. It's like come on now!",
">\n\nAs a mostly former cyclist, I often hated cyclists too. Mostly, because so many cyclist are just competitive asshats that suck the pleasure out of their own bike ride by making everything about speed. Like, heaven forbid they have to slow and yield to anyone.\nOnce, I was riding my bicycle with my young daughter on a bike path in the city. A couple cyclist came up and got all pissy at us, saying we need to be out of the cycle lane because we were going too slow and my 8 year old kid wasn't keeping to a narrow lane. It was so hostile - my kid started crying.\nBut that is just so typical, all the time. I've gotten yelled out a few times when I made a full, foot down stop at a redlight because the cyclist behind me was expecting me to either run the redlight or at least go into the crosswalk and dance around (like they do) until it went green. I remember nearly getting run over by cyclists all the time, and yelled at if I was going too slow.\nThat being said, we need to do 100,000 x more in the US towards making bike paths, protected bike lanes, etc., because cyling is a truly great way to get around and I miss it. I just don't miss the self-centered asshats that dominate the cycling community.",
">\n\nThis!",
">\n\nI’ve nothing against cyclists as a group. I prefer to hate all people who do stupid things whether they’re in cars, on bikes or walking. Went to pick my daughter up tonight and counted six cyclists in the dark wearing all black with no lights at all plus one with a light so weak I didn’t see it until I was nearly past him. Tonight it was dumb cyclists, but tomorrow it might be idiots in cars. Hate the idiots not the method of transportation.",
">\n\nTrue !",
">\n\nOMG YES !! I completely agree. Every time i tried to explain this to a friend, they would always look at me like I am crazy for thinking such a thing. But as I walk for 45 minutes every days, it became a reality you can't ignore... I can't count how many times I nearly got hit by a cyclist, it happens every other week. I am starting to think that cyclists should have to go through a \"course\" to learn the basics of using the streets x)\n(Sorry for mistakes, not native here 'x) )",
">\n\nThis is my story lol..",
">\n\nYes, and it also is my personal experience, which is why I posted this..?",
">\n\nYes I totally agree. Just saying \"that's my life\" :) happening in Brussels tho",
">\n\nMy bad x) welp France here, it amazes me in a really bad way how this seems to be such a common phenomenon literaly EVERYWHERE",
">\n\nJ'ai roulé en vélo à Paris et laisse tomber l'enfer que c'était. J'avais l'impression d'avancer avec des oies qui insultaient tout le monde. BAa bAAA BAaaAa !!! \nLe problème c'est que plus les gens sont stressés (même les piétons... Genre dans le metro) plus ils se haïssent et ce matin j'avais la haine sur les vélos.. en vrai j'ai la haine sur tous les citadins haha",
">\n\nas a cyclist I hate everyone",
">\n\nSame, I see posts like this where people tell us to ride on the sidewalk when it’s illegal. \nThey assume we don’t walk anywhere, drive, etc like we are essentially subhuman for doing exercise.\nThey tell us to ride closer to the right side of the road so we get hit by a car door. \nThey’re mad that we give a verbal signal that we’re coming up on the left even though that’s the law. \nnow that I’m in Colorado I’m getting yelled at for the Idaho stop, which is completely legal. We yield to stop signs and temporarily stop at red light only till it’s clear. It’s all to REDUCE CAR TRAFFIC.\nSo far I’ve had family members die from hit and runs and drunk drivers, but somehow cyclists are the most dangerous thing on the road today.\nWhat is this really about?",
">\n\nI loathe cyclists. Selfish, entitled lycra lunatics.",
">\n\nBe honest, do you realize that it's possible to ride a bicycle and not be selfish, or entitled, or a lunatic, or not wear lycra?",
">\n\nThis thread is such a circlejerk, it's ridiculous.",
">\n\nThat's what I'm here for",
">\n\nIt's because cycling isn't regulated like motor vehicles are but they still get on the roads unlike pedestrians. So they don't have knowledge on the rules of the road that drivers have.\nThere's also some sort of hypocrisy they have where they believe drivers should give way to them because bikes are more vulnerable than cars while expecting pedestrians to give way to them because they're moving faster.",
">\n\n\nSo they don't have knowledge on the rules of the road\n\nPlenty do. Many cyclists also are automobilists. They just feel like they're exempted from respecting trafic rules because it's tiring to stop and go on a bike and they're slower an lighter than cars.",
">\n\nSure you got hit by a truck, but at least you managed to save yourself a little time and avoid waiting for a few seconds. Is what I'd say if they didn't then end up in the hospital",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists, as it should be.",
">\n\nCyclists shouldn’t be on sidewalks",
">\n\nI also cringe a lot when I see the international Reddit community constantly praise us Dutch people for our biking culture. People have no idea how many traffic accidents we get that could have been avoided if we didn’t have cyclists EVERYWHERE who are barely aware of the traffic rules that also apply to them.\nPeople have no idea about how cyclists are almost always right according to our traffic laws, which makes them much more reckless. They cause millions of dollars of damage to cars (and pedestrians) each year, and barely ever face consequences for their irresponsible and reckless behavior in traffic.\nPeople don’t see how cyclists often block traffic because they like to cycle next to each other in pairs, and if you honk they get angry and sometimes even aggressive and try to break your side mirror if they feel like it.\nMany intersections have bicycle lanes that you need to check when making a turn when driving, even though the intersection is already super busy with lots of cars. And guess what, cyclists still ride around fast and recklessly and making sure you don’t hit another car, cyclist AND pedestrian is all the job of one single driver.\nSo all in all, people from countries where driving is a relatively easy and chill thing to do, praise cycling culture in other countries. Try to drive here in busy traffic with thousands of cars AND (RECKLESS) CYCLISTS on the road and then tell me what it’s like.",
">\n\nIt would be much easier to sympathize with cars drivers if they did not need like 60% of the entire transit space leaving cyclists and pedestrians very little.\n\neven though the intersection is already super busy with lots of cars\n\nOfc, because cars are so large and need so much space.",
">\n\nI get that, but why is that my fault? I don’t do the city planning. Besides, cars are much larger than bicycles, so doesn’t it make sense there’s more space needed for cars than for bicycles?\nBut even then, if you don’t want to have any sympathy for motorists, because city planners give them more space than others, that’s just weird. It’s not the motorist’s fault.",
">\n\n\ndoesn’t it make sense there’s more space needed for cars than for bicycles?\n\nWhy a valuable and scarce resource such as the public space in cities should be used predominantly to benefit car users while barring everyone else? \nI just find it much harder to sympathize with the privileged group.",
">\n\nBecause people need to be able to go from A to B?",
">\n\nSo do pedestrians/public transport users/cyclists. But they don't require so much space per person.",
">\n\nWell in The Netherlands public transportation takes up an enormous amount of space and cyclists have their own dedicated lanes almost everywhere. Also motorists have to give public transportation space as we usually have to stop for trams and buses to pass, according to traffic rules. Guess who doesn’t often follow those rules: cyclists.\nHowever, public transportation itself is super busy and unbelievably expensive in The Netherlands. It costs more than 20 Euros to travel ~70 kilometers. That’s why a lot of people still prefer to have a car, and cars simply need infrastructure.\nSo I don’t really get your point. Cars, bicycles and public transportation all get a fair portion of the space that’s available.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist, i hate pedestrians. Here in Germany, there is bike lanes, one part for bikes and one for pedestrians on traffic lights... etc. But the pedestrians just ignore them, form \"walls\" of people blocking the bike lane, dont look while crossing the bike lane. Even cars repect us more than you.",
">\n\nThis I understand. Experienced the same in Denmark",
">\n\nClaaaaaarksoooooonnnnn",
">\n\nIdk about other places but here cyclists are constantly breaking the law and never getting ticketed for it. It makes no sense to me. I don’t think it’d make a huge difference but I do think some cyclists would think twice about disregarding the rules if those rules were actually enforced.",
">\n\nI get the sentiment. My feeling is the root cause is they don’t have their own infrastructure. Cars and peds do. So cyclists are always forced into a non ideal path. \nI’m aware they have rights to the road but cars and bikes really struggle to share an infrastructure clearly made for cars. \nSo if we invest in cycling infrastructure everyone would probably be happier.",
">\n\ndoubt it. In my city there is an asphalt bike path for miles that is like 8 feet wide. Smooth. No stop signs. Do they use it? nope they get their collective ass out on the street and I honestly don't have a clue why.\nIt defies logic. Safter, smooth, not cars/trunks, etc. Here they are out on the street just fiddle farting down a 45 mph road like they own it with a bike path 15 feet away with no one on it. The last guy I asked said \"It is my road as well you know\" that I ran up on while I was at a crossing while riding on the path myself. I just gave up trying to understand. Someone dies on that road every couple of months from bike or pedestrian strike with a vehicle. It was the whole reason they built the path....",
">\n\nWell in my experience there are 2 thing going on there.\na) Often bikers will avoid the path because peds often share or walk across those paths and their speed is closer to that of a car than a ped or \nb) If they are commuting...the path likely isn't going exactly where they need to.\nAs to your specific scenario I don't doubt there are bikers that are hard headed and stubborn. I know a few of those. But generally I do bikers using the infrastructure where we have built it.",
">\n\nThere's an accident here involving @ car running over a cyclist who crossed a red traffic light. And guess who take the blame?",
">\n\nLaughs in being dutch",
">\n\nIt is regrettable that a handful of asshole cyclists ruins everyone’s opinion of us. It really undermines the support needed to improve infrastructure for cycling. \nIf it is any help, when i ring my bell, I am doing so to avoid the alternatives of either yelling a warning or startling people. I normally exit the path and pass on the grass. I would say that most cyclist are the same. I don’t want you to get out of the way, I want you to know I am there. \nBut it only takes a couple assholes that think they own the path or the street. I have a cousin like this and it is difficult to convince him his is wrong and is putting himself and others in danger.",
">\n\nI think the a-holes are people that are only on a bike because it's the easiest thing for them, living where they do. You and those like you are on the bike because you love cycling.",
">\n\nI live in Portland, OR, and the cyclists here are so fucking rude and entitled.",
">\n\nI live in not-Portland OR and visited once. I biked down the road. Could not believe how nice everyone was to me. Probably because they could tell I’m an outsider.",
">\n\nI meant how they treat everyone else who isn't on a bike, tbh.",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists and it's for a simple reason. They think they can do whatever the hell they want. They switch between a pedestrian, a cyclist and a vehicle deciding on the fly whatever rules they feel like following with no accountability. \nOne minute they are skipping traffic, then they are deciding to cross at a crosswalk instead of following traffic. And the sidewalks are bike lanes if that's more convenient.",
">\n\nI just get annoyed because they will ride double wide on a tight street, forcing you to go 60mph in a 45, on the opposite side of traffic, risking a head on collision. And yea, you have to do that, because otherwise cars behind you will start driving aggressive as well as the fact that your expecting all the cars to go at a bikes speed on the road.",
">\n\nThat's because every country except for the Netherlands and Denmark have shit bicycle infrastructure.",
">\n\nI civilised countries we have cycling paths and cycling on the street is also possible as drivers aren't insane. So this seems rather like a problem of poor urban planning than cyclists in general.",
">\n\nWhere I live the cyclists just refuse to take the bikelane and either block the traffic because the rather use the street or they decide to use the pedestrian side of the sidewalk. The frickin bikelane is as big as the pedestrian one. There is no excuse not to use it and they still won't! One of them almost hit me if I hadn't dodge it. If the cyclist only drove a few inches to the left there would have been a bikelane and it wouldn't happened. Of course the person didn't apologize and just cursed at me.",
">\n\nBike gutters are awful and less safe than taking the lane. Assholes park in the bike lanes ALL THE TIME. Plus no one ever looks behind them when getting out pf their car so getting smacked by a door is a real danger. Drivers are entitled but it’s not their fault it’s the way we’ve built society to allow and expect them to be.\nETA: next time you’re driving around take a count how many people you see pulled over or parked in a bike gutter.",
">\n\nCompletely agree - I was ran over almost 3 times in Berlin. \nAnd every single time I checked before crossing - but they just suddenly spawned right in the way",
">\n\nDid you cross at a designated crosswalk? As a cyclist the amount of times people just randomly meander across an active street instead of going to the zebra/lollipop crossing, and then get angry at me when I have to swerve out the way/ brake is comical.",
">\n\nMan, y'all are sad people. \n\"Get off the road!\" Okay, now we are on the sidewalk. \n\"Get off the sidewalk!\" Back in the road again. \n\"They need to ring their bells so we know they're coming! Btw I hate it when they ring their bells so I know they're coming.\"",
">\n\nI hate cyclists like that. I don’t have a car so my bike is my main source of transportation and I don’t ride like that. So far, from what I’ve noticed in my area, I’m the only one that follows the damn rules in my city xD",
">\n\nNo matter where you are and who you are… driver or walker, scooter or flyer… we ALL hate cyclists.",
">\n\nI feel ya. The only thing I hate more than cyclists is electric scooters.",
">\n\nCompletely agree! A cycling license (similar to driving) should be required. Far too many cyclist who doesn’t know (and those who don’t just give a F) about traffic rules.",
">\n\nI completely agree! Cyclists have a lot of rights on the roads, and are very vocal about them, but think they can do whatever the fuck they want at roundabouts and pedestrian crossings.",
">\n\nIt just fascinates me how anyone can walk or drive through a city and genuinely think that bicycles are the problem. Look around you at every turn there are cars jamming the roads. Parked blocking things. Blocking pavements. Driving aggressively. Speeding. Failing to stop. Polluting the air. If they hit you, you are seriously injured or dead. This happens in the thousands. The city absolutely revolves around them.",
">\n\nYou are 100% right. Except I didn't say bicycles are the problem. I said i hate them. I said fuck cars too. I also said bicycles are one of the best alternative for trafic jam in cities.\nCities in Europe weren't made for cars nor bikes. So the problem is the fucking lazy greedy people who decide how to spend our tax money. The problem is people thinking they are all alone on the street. The problem is how stressed everybody is and how it become dangerous.\nNot because I hate how cyclists take revenge from drivers bullies to pedestrians makes me hate a transportation model itself.",
">\n\nIt just seems odd that people can really harp on about cyclists when they are such a trivial issue. Posts like this can get hundreds of replies. People tend to make excuses about cars.",
">\n\nYou just insulted a whole country.",
">\n\nThe Netherlands? It's ok",
">\n\nOk",
">\n\nI judge the actions of the individual not the mode of transport. I find it produces more accurate results.",
">\n\nApparently \"individuals alone are responsible for their own actions\" is the real unpopular opinion here.",
">\n\nIndeed 😀",
">\n\nAs a car driver I also hate cyclists. Saw one on a 45mph the other day despite there being a sidewalk AND a bikelane",
">\n\n45 mph isn't a speed for bike lane or sidewalk. Street is",
">\n\nas a cyclist, I hate pedestrians.\nMy city put in these nice protected bicycle lanes so bikes don't have to ride inches from cars, and boy don't those pedestrians just LOVE using the bike lane as a queuing up spot for the crosswalks. it's just so nice and convenient to get 5 more feet closer to your goal, isn't it? Those bicycles can stop and wait...and feel free to swear at them like THEY are the ones in the wrong.\nBicycles and pedestrians are natural enemies, that's never going to change. There can be only one.",
">\n\nLET'S END THIS NOW !!!!!",
">\n\nanyplace but Holy Ground.",
">\n\ndon't blame all bicyclists for the shitty ones.\nthat would be like saying every person who drives a car is an asshole. or every person who walks on the sidewalk is an asshole.\nsome people are good at getting around. other people are jerks. don't blame everyone for the actions of a small subset of people.",
">\n\nI mean, isn’t that the sentiment over that the popular sub r/fuckcars? The generalization is already being perpetuated from cyclists and “urbanists” in their war against cars.",
">\n\nNot really. That sub mostly hates the focus on cars when designing infrastructure, as well as the forced dependency on cars in our modern world. Not individual drivers.",
">\n\nSure about that? It’s mostly just a bitch-fest about driver errors to further their political agenda.",
">\n\nYea, I'm pretty sure.",
">\n\nReally weird way to get there if that’s the case. Alienating a large portion of the population (car drivers, car riders, people that depend on vehicles for the delivery of goods and services) is not how you get them on your side.",
">\n\nI don't think that's their goal in the first place. It's just a reddit sub.",
">\n\nEspecially when they have a stupid fucking bell and say \"on the left\" then proceed to be on the right side of the trail running into you",
">\n\nHahahha \"is he coming on the left or should i go on the lef...\" BANG!!",
">\n\nGF lives in a college town. It’s as if there’s some kinda fuckin’ death wish among the student cycling population",
">\n\nAs a [insert anyone, including cyclist], I hate cyclists.",
">\n\nPeople don't wanna hear it when it comes from automobilists because \"gngn cars are more dangerous and drivers are entitled\" but reality is cyclists are just the worst. Whether I'm on foot, driving a car, or riding a bicycle myself, cyclists are always always the ones being absolute public hazards. Heck, when I'm on my bike and stop at the stop sign on a cycle lane to let the cars go, they look at me as if I'm jesus or something. They even try to let me pass first because of how used they are to cyclists who just can't be bothered to respect the damn stop sign.",
">\n\nThe problem isn't the cyclists here, it's the lacking infrastructure.",
">\n\nWe shouldn't have to build infrastructure so people can partake in recreation. I find that comment extremely arrogant. Why on earth do cyclists deserve to have their recreation glorified and catered to??",
">\n\nRecreation? Ah yes, cycling is only for recreation.",
">\n\nWell, where I live that I'd the ONLY purpose. I'm 17 miles from any city municipality. Nobody is biking here to go to the grocery store or work.",
">\n\nNot everything is about you personally.",
">\n\nTo me, it is, and should be. My concern is around how cyclists inconvenience me while I'm trying to be a productive member of society. I feel like that's a fair critique.",
">\n\nYou are mad that cyclists inconvenience you yet you reject dedicated infrastructure as a solution. Do you think cyclists should be banned off the road completely?",
">\n\nThe real issue here is lacking cycling infrastructure.",
">\n\nDefinitely a major issue.\nBut part of the issue is definitely cyclists who prioritize their own speed over the safety and welfare of everyone around them. It's like they are all BMW drivers, deep down, and just don't want to yield to or slow down for anyone.",
">\n\nI'm sure there are, assholes exist in all vehicle types.",
">\n\nCyclists know thar neither the pavement nor the road are theirs because motorists and pedestrians like you are both screaming at them all the time. And I swear you'd be angrier if they didn't give a polite warning that they're coming toward you. \nCyclists who breeze through crossings instead of stopping are a minority, much like cyclists are a minority in general, and you can't judge an entire group that aren't adequately represented",
">\n\nFuck traveling in general",
">\n\nYa. Where are our transporters! \nSorry had to go full nerd.",
">\n\nI see posts like this constantly. It blows my mind people can just choose one thing that is so insignificant to scapegoat. \nThey assume people on bikes don’t also walk, drive, etc like we are essentially subhuman for doing exercise / running errands in this way because they are inconvenienced for a few seconds. You realize we are human like you , right?\nPeople tell us to ride bicycles on the sidewalk when it’s illegal while others say not too. It’s usually against the law.\nThey tell us to ride closer to the right side of the road , so we get hit by a car door and yelled at again. \nThey’re mad that we give a verbal signal that we’re coming up on the left even though that’s the law. \nNow that I’m in Colorado I’m getting yelled at for the Idaho stop, which is completely legal. We yield to stop signs and temporarily stop at red lights only if it’s clear. It’s all to REDUCE CAR TRAFFIC. \nKeep in mind we are riding bicycles which in its own right REDUCES CAR TRAFFIC. \n80% of car trips are within 3 miles from your house. Everyone that rides a bike keeps you from being stuck behind them in traffic for longer then the 20 seconds you’re currently inconvenienced. It’s also mean parking closer to the front door of a shop. \nSo far I’ve had family members die from hit and runs and drunk drivers, but somehow cyclists are the most dangerous thing on the road today?! It’s not adding up.\nWhat is this really about?",
">\n\nI'm sorry for your losses. I never said bikers are the most dangerous things on the road. Saying this would be stupid. The problem in my city is the lack of respect from cyclists to pedestrians in a general way. I'm not even talking about drivers against EVERYTHING ON THE STREET.",
">\n\nI go out of my way to be respectful to everybody, and I’ve had nothing but kindness and respect from other cyclists .\nYou wanna blame everybody on a bicycle for all your problems when it’s really just about a few people who disrespected you. \nCyclists are drivers, walkers, etc. do they just jump on a bicycle and instantly become disrespectful?\nStill doesn’t make any logical sense.",
">\n\nDude you just don't get it.. i understand biking is your life.. but come on.\nI use to bike 40km per day to work. \nI don't have problems with people jumping on bikes. I simply hate the ones that are disrespectful.\nIs it too hard to understand? Just me venting coz I feel like a lot of bikers think they are on top of the citizen pyramid? \nI'm not venting about the system here, nor about cars.. just about some (yes some) bikers.\nAnd please there is no need to beg for upvotes on fuckcars how old are you?",
">\n\nI bet your fat.",
">\n\nOf course I fart !",
">\n\nTo you yours and to mine mine; I hate car users and their ilk who are filled with wonton waste and hate for all else who dare travel near them. I stop at all lights, halt for all signs, use a mirror, lights, and hand signals, pull over for cars coming my way so long as there is any room, and use what little biking infrastructure is available to me.\nMy taxes are waste and paid in folly for they assuredly go in portion to your reckless use of a powerful machine and not to my own reckless use of a small self-propelled stick on two wheels to separate lanes and keep them maintained. No, no, I must settle for the gutter and cry glee for that and be ashamed to move to the sidewalk when it suddenly ends and continues a block later down the road. \nFuck your car, your roads, and your selfish desire to pave the world and create cities with 60% of their coverage dedicated to driving a car, parking a car, and separating the world into places for cars and otherwise. You who drive faster and faster, in bigger and bigger cars. I loath you as you loath mine.",
">\n\nI wouldn’t hate cyclists if they didn’t act like road laws don’t apply to em in the city where I live. I’ve seen cyclists not even stop at red lights even with an almost full intersection, and ride the wrong way down one ways.\nEdit: I do wish the city where I live had more bike lanes but yeah.",
">\n\nIf you're going to hate someone, maybe hate the people actually doing those things.\nIf I see someone on a bike rush through a short break on a red light in an otherwise busy intersection, I shake my head and think they are an idiot. I think this while waiting for the light to turn green on my bike.\nSimilarly, when a car illegally stops in a bike lane (which happens ALL THE TIME by the way), I don't turn around and blame the cars moving along legally in the adjacent lane.",
">\n\nPedestrian are the worst.\nWhen i started using bicicle I was very polite: brake, ring, ask for permission. And what the large amount of people do? Ignore u, watch u in the eyes and take a step in the fucking middle of the trail (many many times! for real!), shout at you just because u exist. So.... At some point is fuck you all, I'm coming go out of the way. That's it",
">\n\n\nI will never drive nor park on a bike lane, always look into the mirror to be careful of one of you monkeys. So why can't you be careful when us peasants are walking?\n\nThis is dumb. Obviously there are plenty of cyclists who are careful and courteous about your safety. That's part of what a bell or \"watch out!\" (generally \"On your left\") is doing for you. And just because you are courteous to them doesn't mean everyone is. Is every driver a douchebag just because some of them crowd cyclists when and where the cyclist has the right to the road? No.",
">\n\nThe difference here is that generally car drivers are going to be held accountable for bad driving. This is in the form of dash cams, ANPR and red light cameras which catch drivers doing bad things and they can receive a fine or points on their licence. Cyclists currently can't be held accountable if they jump red lights or hit a car or pedestrian as there isn't anything that helps identify them. This is a big issue in cities. I live and work in London and see many cyclists jumping red lights and weaving around pedestrians crossing. Cars can't do this as most traffic lights have red light cameras that would catch this.\nDrivers as a collective (including me) are in no way perfect or even held to account 100% of the time, but I believe we need a system for cyclists to be held accountable too",
">\n\nYour way of thinking, while perfectly rational and natural, is outdated. Traffic law enforcement, like any other law enforcement, is less about the enforcement, and more about the prevention. Where I live, speed and red light cameras are clearly marked ahead so that the people who'd normally break the law follow it instead, making punishment unnecessary. \nSame could be done with cyclists. Sure, you could make every cyclist install a license plate, require a \"cycling license\", or install expensive cameras with facial identification software, but how about just make it so cyclists aren't incentivised to break the law in the first place? \nMake more useful cycling infrastructure, and more cyclists will use it. Make that infrastructure intersect with foot and motor traffic more safely and less often, and less collisions will happen.",
">\n\nI completely understand your point. However, a lot of money has gone into my local area for cycling infrastructure that most cyclists are using, but many are still choosing to break the rules as the rules are inconvenient. The infrastructure is not enough, there needs to be an incentive NOT to break the rules.\nIf you take a look at Chiswick High Road in London, England. They have created segregated cycle lanes from the traffic. These cycle lanes have their own lights and crossings to keep them safe from cars. However many cyclists just ignore the lights and just keep going into pedestrians. There is no punishment for them doing this as they can't be tracked. Personally I think every cyclist should have to register their bike (make it free to help encourage this) and then a new form of ANPR used to also catch cyclists in the act",
">\n\nPersonally I'd have no problem registering my bike for free, especially if I could use that same registration if it gets stolen, but registering something as mechanically simple and cheap as a bicycle is, in my opinion difficult if not impossible to do without making the bike mechanically complex and expensive, at which point most people would just switch to scooters.\nI don't live in London, but from what I've heard, by far the biggest threat in the city is still motorized traffic, namely cars and lorries, and so until that problem is no longer a problem, I wouldn't really do anything special about bikes. Maybe put some undercover bike cops near the most dangerous bike path/lane intersections to catch a few offenders and make an example out of them, but that's about it.",
">\n\nMost cars I’ve driven came equipped with brakes and a steering wheel. I don’t see the problem",
">\n\nA common take and a stupid one.\nThere are good and bad drivers, pedestrians, and cyclists. Hating any of them as a group because some of them do bad things is just dumb.",
">\n\nIf you followed the laws and stayed out of the bike lane as a pedestrian there would be no problem.",
">\n\nIf bicyclists followed the laws and stopped ignoring street signs/traffic lights there would be no problem.",
">\n\nDon’t see how this address the problem with pedestrians in bike lanes.",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Drivers pedestrians other cyclists. They're a scourge.",
">\n\nEvery word of this is pure wisdom.",
">\n\nAs a car driver, I too hate cyclists.\nI don't care who has 'right of way'. I'm in a car, you're not. If we collide, regardless of fault, you're the one that dies.\nDo you really want to die on the hill that says \"i can bike on the rode b/c it's legal\"?\nI might be in jail, but you're still dead.\nBikes don't belong on public roads. Unless there's a bike lane - aka, a pathway designed specifically for bikers.\nIt's FAR SAFER to bike on the sidewalk.",
">\n\nBe careful you’ll anger r/fuckcars",
">\n\nI recently got a bike in Japan and there isn't any room on the street to ride my bike. Most people are fine when I'm on the sidewalk, however, the worst ones are groups of 2 or more who try and take up as much space as possible allowing nobody to pass. Same with the people who constantly switch between the left and right side of the sidewalk. It's really annoying to see how little spacial awareness they have.",
">\n\nCyclists on the road don’t have to pass the same test as vehicles on the road, which is why they are so bad. If there was a test in order to cycle on the road then i think it would be alot better",
">\n\nWhy do you hate all cyclists when only some of them are rude/dangerous?",
">\n\nCope hehe",
">\n\nIt's the powered vehicles that kill most pedestrians.\nBut, sure, cyclists blahblah...",
">\n\nAs an occasional cyclist, I don't like you either.",
">\n\nI biked everywhere.....when I was a child. I'm an adult now and have an automobile. They are pretty neat.",
">\n\nWhen I used to have to walk to work I’d walk on the sidewalk and listen to music and one time this guy zipped right by me yelling almost knocking me over and flipped me off?? They act like they don’t have breaks lmao",
">\n\nholy smokes! glad you're ok",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Even cyclists.",
">\n\nAnd here i thought why the f pediatrician hate cyclists",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Even other cyclists.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist this thread is hilarious",
">\n\nAnyone got recommendations for how to be a nice, considerate cyclist besides being careful and non-entitled? I plan on starting when it gets warm outside.",
">\n\nNot unpopular",
">\n\nWhen I drive to work, I obey most of the rules. I just can't drive on some roads. That would either kill me at some point or I'd slow down a whole 60 km/h lane that's packed with traffic. When riding on the sidewalk, I always stop or get off my bike if it gets too crowded or the sidewalk narrows. But when no one is around I just keep driving normally, just slower than usual. I try to stay alert at all times and let everyone pass because I know I'm wrong here.\nAt one point there is a one-way street I'm not allowed to drive on, but as my alternatives are the same 60km/h road (but now also with rails) or a crowded sidewalk, I prefer the one-way street with maybe 4 cars per hour that I can easily avoid. After that there is finally a bike path until I get to work. There would be a legal route, but it would take twice, if not triple, the time.\nI also hate reckless cyclists. They have already endangered me and are often unfriendly assholes. I just don't have a death wish and don't want to drive a route in an hour if 20 minutes are possible in a safe way (If the brain gets used).",
">\n\nCyclists don’t care because unless they get injured there are no real consequences for their actions.\nI think that any vehicle, with or without any type of motor, should require a license to operate on a public roadway. Road legal bikes need to be held to quality standards, like cars, and should also be registered. If you wish to ride one on a public roadway it should have a number plate on it. You should have to pass a rider’s ed course proving that you know the rules of the road. There should be a test proving that you can control the vehicle and operate it safely, same as a car or motorcycle.",
">\n\nYeah I’ve nearly been run over from behind by cyclists on sidewalks too many times",
">\n\nIdk maybe my town is weird like everwhere on the internet and even in statistics you hear stuff like that but then I haven't really seen any cyclists run red lights ever and as someone who maybe not often but sometimes cycles, the last thing I'd do as a cyclist is run a red light like I don't wanna die?",
">\n\nOnly people that like cyclist.. are probably just other cyclists.",
">\n\nI don’t mind normal, law-abiding cyclists at all. I just despise the ones that think they can choose whether to act like a car or pedestrian whenever they feel like it. Or worse, they don’t know the actual laws but think they are special just because they are riding a bike.",
">\n\nSometimes I feel like I am the only one watching out for pedestrians. For example when there's a crosswalk coming up that goes over the bike path and there's someone waiting, I always yield and the person waiting is often surprised since most people on bicycles just carry on. So not all cyclists are like that.",
">\n\nAs a pedestrian, cyclist and driver, I hate taxis.",
">\n\nI once almost got hit by a cyclist who failed to stop at a stop sign",
">\n\nCyclist have it both ways which isn’t fair. They can drive on the road AND the sidewalk and use pedestrian crossings when they feel like it. It’s like they have no road rules once on a bike. \nOn the sidewalk I have to get outta the way? No bikeperson. You shouldn’t even be on the sidewalk in the first place! Maybe if you’re under 10 but otherwise drive your vehicle on the road like all other adults!",
">\n\nI knew a cyclist who would always talk shit about cars. He told me he’s been hit TEN TIMES. UMMM?? If you’ve been hit ten times then it’s not the cars fault…",
">\n\nYou must be from New York lol fuck the cyclists up there"
] |
>
Lol. Everyone talks like this. No one likes cyclists.
Except me. I legit find it hilarious when they fuck with cars and even pedestrians. I saw a cyclist slap a pedestrian staring at their phone in the middle of the road 2 days ago. Cyclist warned him multiple times so cyclist open palmed him as he passed. Fucking hilarious.
|
[
"I road cycled for years, I always followed the street rules. Always. Red light means red light. \nI have so many cycling friends who get into accidents and other conflicts with drivers, and yet they think it’s stupid to stop at a red light. They just don’t connect these two things",
">\n\nMost bikers I encounter are complete idiots. Like I'd be driving normally and out of nowhere comes a biker on a crosswalk in full speed. Now, I appreciate bikers who actually stop and make eye contact with me as I'm driving towards the crosswalk but man, it's either that or the biker almost dies because I have no time to brake.\nAnd what's up with all the bikers going like 5 kmh IN THE MIDDLE of a road when there's a dedicated sidewalk for bikers right next to them? Drives me insane.",
">\n\nIt seems like most bikers because of observation bias.\nIf you follow the rules as you should, you’re unmemorable.\nAs for the sidewalks - its actually less safe on the sidewalk.",
">\n\nInteresting. Dangerous situations are more valuable to remember, and I remember tons of irresponsible bikers. It is in fact observation bias. But I'm always happy to see those who pay close attention to traffic, and I do remeber some of them aswell.",
">\n\nWell the same goes for driving. How many cars do you remember when they haven’t done anything? But you tend to remember the ones who do something dumb",
">\n\nYeah it can be applied to anything really.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist in one of the most bike-dense cities in the world, I hate cyclists too. If I could avoid getting myself hurt, I’d be ramming at least ten of them a day just to teach a lesson about ignoring rules and common sense.",
">\n\nAmsterdam? Copenhagen?",
">\n\nCopenhagen. It’s a wonderful bike city but the people are incredibly self-centered.",
">\n\nI had high expectations from cyclists when I first visited the city, after all it is heralded as a cycling paradise and, well, let’s say it looked a lot more like the rest of the world and mainly because of the personal behavior of cyclists.\nMy local friend justified it, stating that it’s because danish are more temperamental than all other Scandinavians: an explanation that I really didn’t know what to do with…",
">\n\nIf “temperamental” means “a bunch of egotistical [insert unflattering body part]”, he’s right.",
">\n\nYou make it sound like a war zone. I live in Copenhagen and most of the time biking around the city is very pleasant. Except for the food delivery scooters, they can 🤬 off.",
">\n\nI guess it depends on how often and where you’re going. If you have places to be each and every day and want to get there effectively, people ignoring general rules and courtesies of the road are a pain. If you’re one of the types listening to podcasts with a latte in one hand and a phone in the other just trudging along, it’s probably fine.",
">\n\nSame! I love walking. Where I live on popular trails, there are bike lanes, but the cyclists will just ride wherever they. They don’t care and won’t let you know they’re coming. They’ll get pissy if you don’t just automatically know they’re coming up from behind you. If you do much as step foot in the bike lane, they get mad, but have no problems riding side by side outside the bike lane.",
">\n\nSame here! So much for my pleasant walk on the beautiful Trail. They sneak up and when they're almost on top of me, a loud voice yells \"On your left!\" They startle the shit out of me and cause me to jump sky high! 😡",
">\n\nIt’s literally the law to say that. This thread is all about hating them no matter if they follow the law or not.",
">\n\nIs it possible to do that without sneaking up on them and startling the shit out of them by yelling real loud? And then cutting is close to them as you possibly can without hitting them?",
">\n\nHello. \nMy useless comment to this post is here :D\nSo, i work in the accidents department of a big insurance company. My country is very strickt about the road rules, meaning:\nOur company estimates (is this the right word?) that around 82% of accidents involving cyclists, are to blame on the cyclist. Since there are expecific places on the road for you to ride your bike, even if it's not a bike lane.\nI remember a case where 3 dudes were just cycling, outside of town and they were literally on the middle of the road. the place where they were is full of curves and has very little visibility, so they were riding side by side, middle of the road, comes a car, hits not one, but the 3 of them because they scared the person and she just swerved the car.\nThey sued her and us (insurance) 2 times. Lost both and had to pay for all damage done on the car by their own bodys",
">\n\nThis sounds like something that happened near by my home town, are you in Ontario?",
">\n\nno XD portugal",
">\n\nGod its so much worse that it's happened in multiple places.\nIn ours I think the driver killed one of the cyclists, then sued the family for emotional damage",
">\n\nMy biggest gripe about cyclists is that there is always some danger when you encounter them on the road, either as a pedestrian or motorist. Now, part of it isn’t their fault. At least here in the US, not much of the infrastructure is made for bicycles. But cyclists are constantly breaking the rules of the road (or sidewalk) to get where they’re going faster. Blowing red lights, leaving the bike lane to use the sidewalk, splitting lanes. I always clench a little when I approach one, wondering if this is the day I can’t get out of the way.",
">\n\nWe have that same problem, but then a million times worse, because I live in The Netherlands. You probably know about our proud cycling culture (the Amsterdam stereotype). And yes, cyclists here are just as bad as the ones you describe, but there’s a lot more of them here. And oh yeah, traffic laws are almost always in their favor.",
">\n\nI found driving in the towns of the Netherlands so hard. Not just because I was on the wrong side of the road 😉 but because I just wasn’t used to sooo many cyclists coming from all directions, always faster than me and passing on both sides. Even as I was signalling to leave a roundabout at one point about three cyclists rode past on the inside. I really struggled to keep up with them all, which of course means I drove slower and thus even more bikes passed me!",
">\n\nYes that is of course very difficult, however as a Dutchman I’m used to cyclists, so of course we struggle a lot less. But that doesn’t take away from the fact that cyclists do cause a lot of issues because of their careless behavior, and because as drivers we have to accommodate them. That one sided ‘deal’ that we have makes it very difficult to deal with them.\nAll in all I’m happy we have so many cyclists as it’s good for the environment. But the utopian mindset of cyclists being a gift to the world is just stupid. Especially when you consider that mostly Americans who drive on wide open roads with barely any cyclists around are the ones praising cyclists in my country all the time. Also, cyclists annoy the hell out of pedestrians as well, so it’s not just about motorists.",
">\n\nCyclists treat red lights like stop signs and stop signs like yield signs (at best). They’re not allowed on sidewalks but do it anyway. Fuckin hate cyclists.",
">\n\nEverything you said is completely legal in Denver and sidewalks are illegal , but drivers constantly scream at cyclists to ride there",
">\n\nCyclist can roll stop signs and run red lights in Denver? What the fuck?",
">\n\nI’d have no problem if cyclist had respect for other road users. where I live there are cycle lanes, but most cyclists are on the road or pavements, they ignore red lights etc. \nIf you want to cycle please make it’s safe for yourself and others around you.",
">\n\nExactly my thoughts",
">\n\nHonestly, selfish assholes exist everywhere but a selfish asshole on a bicycle does a lot less damage than a selfish asshole in a car. \nEDIT: OP's also downvoting everyone who disagrees with him, just fyi.",
">\n\nAs a pedestrian, I hate everyone who's not a pedestrian... And some pedestrians too.",
">\n\nThere's a reason so many cyclists die each year, they all seem to pick and choose which laws they want to follow. Its always safer to assume they'll do whatever they want and everyone else needs to adapt to them.",
">\n\nAs a driver downtown, I don't worry at all about pedestrians at intersections, I can turn my head and assume they will be maybe five feet closer to my car when I look back, (and I trust they won't sprint towards me when I look away, at their own peril), but bikes, they ride so fast, that in the short time I turn my head to check for oncoming traffic, a bike could materialize right beside / infront me, and I risk hitting them or them hitting the side of my car. And that's even in their designated bike lane, that I have to pass through to clear the intersection. And if I drive into a ped at three miles per hour, they will just hit my hood with their fist and call me a stupid motherfucker, or whatever makes them feel justice was served, but if I bump the bike, it will be a big crash, the bicyclist will be all curled up in a ball on the ground, I'll be the bad guy in the eyes of the law and anyone nearby, and I'll probably be late as fuck to wherever it is I'm trying to go to.",
">\n\nI skateboard so I guess I'm good",
">\n\nJust don’t inconvenience narcissistic car drivers by a few seconds.",
">\n\nI think everyone hates cyclists. Cyclists included.",
">\n\nAs a driver, I hate you both",
">\n\nPedestrians are literally the worst. Anyone who has to walk more than 20 feet a day and not to their car are complete losers, and should be jailed on site.",
">\n\nOK, I think that's a bit extreme. But hey, if you're running for public office I'll vote for you. \nI do have to wonder anytime I see someone that I know has the mental faculties to drive who is walking. Usually assume too many DUI's.",
">\n\nr/fuckcars ripping out their hair rn",
">\n\nNot unpopular.\n Everyone hates cyclists.",
">\n\nI casually cycle in the summer. If I'm on a trail, I'll slow down and ring my bell if I see pedestrians, or stop and dismount if there's a lot of people or they don't notice me. Especially on the narrow trails in this woodlot I sometimes go to. \nThe problem is a lot of cyclists, especially in North America, but perhaps other places, just aren't respectful of others. They demand car drivers \"share the road\", but then ride in huge packs, lane split, don't signal turns, run stop signs and red lights, weave in and out of traffic, boot up busy sidewalks at 15-20mph, refuse to use provided bike lanes, etc. There's like a gross sense of entitlement in the cycling community. Dude, you're still a vehicle. There's rules that apply to you, just like there are for cars and motorcycles. Big problem is difficulty/lack of enforcement. Cops have to catch them in the act. Even then they're slippery devils since they're usually more mobile than a cruiser or beat cop on foot. This is why I support plating bikes to make them easily identifiable.",
">\n\n\nThere's like a gross sense of entitlement in the cycling community. Dude, you're still a vehicle. There's rules that apply to you, just like there are for cars and motorcycles.\n\nThat is the problem right there. They want to be treated equal to car owners, yet they do not abide by traffic rules, hence all the accidents.",
">\n\nAs a driver, I concur.",
">\n\nI hate bikers on trails. They're supposed to stop and let hikers by but they never do. They go by so freakin' fast too. It's like come on now!",
">\n\nAs a mostly former cyclist, I often hated cyclists too. Mostly, because so many cyclist are just competitive asshats that suck the pleasure out of their own bike ride by making everything about speed. Like, heaven forbid they have to slow and yield to anyone.\nOnce, I was riding my bicycle with my young daughter on a bike path in the city. A couple cyclist came up and got all pissy at us, saying we need to be out of the cycle lane because we were going too slow and my 8 year old kid wasn't keeping to a narrow lane. It was so hostile - my kid started crying.\nBut that is just so typical, all the time. I've gotten yelled out a few times when I made a full, foot down stop at a redlight because the cyclist behind me was expecting me to either run the redlight or at least go into the crosswalk and dance around (like they do) until it went green. I remember nearly getting run over by cyclists all the time, and yelled at if I was going too slow.\nThat being said, we need to do 100,000 x more in the US towards making bike paths, protected bike lanes, etc., because cyling is a truly great way to get around and I miss it. I just don't miss the self-centered asshats that dominate the cycling community.",
">\n\nThis!",
">\n\nI’ve nothing against cyclists as a group. I prefer to hate all people who do stupid things whether they’re in cars, on bikes or walking. Went to pick my daughter up tonight and counted six cyclists in the dark wearing all black with no lights at all plus one with a light so weak I didn’t see it until I was nearly past him. Tonight it was dumb cyclists, but tomorrow it might be idiots in cars. Hate the idiots not the method of transportation.",
">\n\nTrue !",
">\n\nOMG YES !! I completely agree. Every time i tried to explain this to a friend, they would always look at me like I am crazy for thinking such a thing. But as I walk for 45 minutes every days, it became a reality you can't ignore... I can't count how many times I nearly got hit by a cyclist, it happens every other week. I am starting to think that cyclists should have to go through a \"course\" to learn the basics of using the streets x)\n(Sorry for mistakes, not native here 'x) )",
">\n\nThis is my story lol..",
">\n\nYes, and it also is my personal experience, which is why I posted this..?",
">\n\nYes I totally agree. Just saying \"that's my life\" :) happening in Brussels tho",
">\n\nMy bad x) welp France here, it amazes me in a really bad way how this seems to be such a common phenomenon literaly EVERYWHERE",
">\n\nJ'ai roulé en vélo à Paris et laisse tomber l'enfer que c'était. J'avais l'impression d'avancer avec des oies qui insultaient tout le monde. BAa bAAA BAaaAa !!! \nLe problème c'est que plus les gens sont stressés (même les piétons... Genre dans le metro) plus ils se haïssent et ce matin j'avais la haine sur les vélos.. en vrai j'ai la haine sur tous les citadins haha",
">\n\nas a cyclist I hate everyone",
">\n\nSame, I see posts like this where people tell us to ride on the sidewalk when it’s illegal. \nThey assume we don’t walk anywhere, drive, etc like we are essentially subhuman for doing exercise.\nThey tell us to ride closer to the right side of the road so we get hit by a car door. \nThey’re mad that we give a verbal signal that we’re coming up on the left even though that’s the law. \nnow that I’m in Colorado I’m getting yelled at for the Idaho stop, which is completely legal. We yield to stop signs and temporarily stop at red light only till it’s clear. It’s all to REDUCE CAR TRAFFIC.\nSo far I’ve had family members die from hit and runs and drunk drivers, but somehow cyclists are the most dangerous thing on the road today.\nWhat is this really about?",
">\n\nI loathe cyclists. Selfish, entitled lycra lunatics.",
">\n\nBe honest, do you realize that it's possible to ride a bicycle and not be selfish, or entitled, or a lunatic, or not wear lycra?",
">\n\nThis thread is such a circlejerk, it's ridiculous.",
">\n\nThat's what I'm here for",
">\n\nIt's because cycling isn't regulated like motor vehicles are but they still get on the roads unlike pedestrians. So they don't have knowledge on the rules of the road that drivers have.\nThere's also some sort of hypocrisy they have where they believe drivers should give way to them because bikes are more vulnerable than cars while expecting pedestrians to give way to them because they're moving faster.",
">\n\n\nSo they don't have knowledge on the rules of the road\n\nPlenty do. Many cyclists also are automobilists. They just feel like they're exempted from respecting trafic rules because it's tiring to stop and go on a bike and they're slower an lighter than cars.",
">\n\nSure you got hit by a truck, but at least you managed to save yourself a little time and avoid waiting for a few seconds. Is what I'd say if they didn't then end up in the hospital",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists, as it should be.",
">\n\nCyclists shouldn’t be on sidewalks",
">\n\nI also cringe a lot when I see the international Reddit community constantly praise us Dutch people for our biking culture. People have no idea how many traffic accidents we get that could have been avoided if we didn’t have cyclists EVERYWHERE who are barely aware of the traffic rules that also apply to them.\nPeople have no idea about how cyclists are almost always right according to our traffic laws, which makes them much more reckless. They cause millions of dollars of damage to cars (and pedestrians) each year, and barely ever face consequences for their irresponsible and reckless behavior in traffic.\nPeople don’t see how cyclists often block traffic because they like to cycle next to each other in pairs, and if you honk they get angry and sometimes even aggressive and try to break your side mirror if they feel like it.\nMany intersections have bicycle lanes that you need to check when making a turn when driving, even though the intersection is already super busy with lots of cars. And guess what, cyclists still ride around fast and recklessly and making sure you don’t hit another car, cyclist AND pedestrian is all the job of one single driver.\nSo all in all, people from countries where driving is a relatively easy and chill thing to do, praise cycling culture in other countries. Try to drive here in busy traffic with thousands of cars AND (RECKLESS) CYCLISTS on the road and then tell me what it’s like.",
">\n\nIt would be much easier to sympathize with cars drivers if they did not need like 60% of the entire transit space leaving cyclists and pedestrians very little.\n\neven though the intersection is already super busy with lots of cars\n\nOfc, because cars are so large and need so much space.",
">\n\nI get that, but why is that my fault? I don’t do the city planning. Besides, cars are much larger than bicycles, so doesn’t it make sense there’s more space needed for cars than for bicycles?\nBut even then, if you don’t want to have any sympathy for motorists, because city planners give them more space than others, that’s just weird. It’s not the motorist’s fault.",
">\n\n\ndoesn’t it make sense there’s more space needed for cars than for bicycles?\n\nWhy a valuable and scarce resource such as the public space in cities should be used predominantly to benefit car users while barring everyone else? \nI just find it much harder to sympathize with the privileged group.",
">\n\nBecause people need to be able to go from A to B?",
">\n\nSo do pedestrians/public transport users/cyclists. But they don't require so much space per person.",
">\n\nWell in The Netherlands public transportation takes up an enormous amount of space and cyclists have their own dedicated lanes almost everywhere. Also motorists have to give public transportation space as we usually have to stop for trams and buses to pass, according to traffic rules. Guess who doesn’t often follow those rules: cyclists.\nHowever, public transportation itself is super busy and unbelievably expensive in The Netherlands. It costs more than 20 Euros to travel ~70 kilometers. That’s why a lot of people still prefer to have a car, and cars simply need infrastructure.\nSo I don’t really get your point. Cars, bicycles and public transportation all get a fair portion of the space that’s available.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist, i hate pedestrians. Here in Germany, there is bike lanes, one part for bikes and one for pedestrians on traffic lights... etc. But the pedestrians just ignore them, form \"walls\" of people blocking the bike lane, dont look while crossing the bike lane. Even cars repect us more than you.",
">\n\nThis I understand. Experienced the same in Denmark",
">\n\nClaaaaaarksoooooonnnnn",
">\n\nIdk about other places but here cyclists are constantly breaking the law and never getting ticketed for it. It makes no sense to me. I don’t think it’d make a huge difference but I do think some cyclists would think twice about disregarding the rules if those rules were actually enforced.",
">\n\nI get the sentiment. My feeling is the root cause is they don’t have their own infrastructure. Cars and peds do. So cyclists are always forced into a non ideal path. \nI’m aware they have rights to the road but cars and bikes really struggle to share an infrastructure clearly made for cars. \nSo if we invest in cycling infrastructure everyone would probably be happier.",
">\n\ndoubt it. In my city there is an asphalt bike path for miles that is like 8 feet wide. Smooth. No stop signs. Do they use it? nope they get their collective ass out on the street and I honestly don't have a clue why.\nIt defies logic. Safter, smooth, not cars/trunks, etc. Here they are out on the street just fiddle farting down a 45 mph road like they own it with a bike path 15 feet away with no one on it. The last guy I asked said \"It is my road as well you know\" that I ran up on while I was at a crossing while riding on the path myself. I just gave up trying to understand. Someone dies on that road every couple of months from bike or pedestrian strike with a vehicle. It was the whole reason they built the path....",
">\n\nWell in my experience there are 2 thing going on there.\na) Often bikers will avoid the path because peds often share or walk across those paths and their speed is closer to that of a car than a ped or \nb) If they are commuting...the path likely isn't going exactly where they need to.\nAs to your specific scenario I don't doubt there are bikers that are hard headed and stubborn. I know a few of those. But generally I do bikers using the infrastructure where we have built it.",
">\n\nThere's an accident here involving @ car running over a cyclist who crossed a red traffic light. And guess who take the blame?",
">\n\nLaughs in being dutch",
">\n\nIt is regrettable that a handful of asshole cyclists ruins everyone’s opinion of us. It really undermines the support needed to improve infrastructure for cycling. \nIf it is any help, when i ring my bell, I am doing so to avoid the alternatives of either yelling a warning or startling people. I normally exit the path and pass on the grass. I would say that most cyclist are the same. I don’t want you to get out of the way, I want you to know I am there. \nBut it only takes a couple assholes that think they own the path or the street. I have a cousin like this and it is difficult to convince him his is wrong and is putting himself and others in danger.",
">\n\nI think the a-holes are people that are only on a bike because it's the easiest thing for them, living where they do. You and those like you are on the bike because you love cycling.",
">\n\nI live in Portland, OR, and the cyclists here are so fucking rude and entitled.",
">\n\nI live in not-Portland OR and visited once. I biked down the road. Could not believe how nice everyone was to me. Probably because they could tell I’m an outsider.",
">\n\nI meant how they treat everyone else who isn't on a bike, tbh.",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists and it's for a simple reason. They think they can do whatever the hell they want. They switch between a pedestrian, a cyclist and a vehicle deciding on the fly whatever rules they feel like following with no accountability. \nOne minute they are skipping traffic, then they are deciding to cross at a crosswalk instead of following traffic. And the sidewalks are bike lanes if that's more convenient.",
">\n\nI just get annoyed because they will ride double wide on a tight street, forcing you to go 60mph in a 45, on the opposite side of traffic, risking a head on collision. And yea, you have to do that, because otherwise cars behind you will start driving aggressive as well as the fact that your expecting all the cars to go at a bikes speed on the road.",
">\n\nThat's because every country except for the Netherlands and Denmark have shit bicycle infrastructure.",
">\n\nI civilised countries we have cycling paths and cycling on the street is also possible as drivers aren't insane. So this seems rather like a problem of poor urban planning than cyclists in general.",
">\n\nWhere I live the cyclists just refuse to take the bikelane and either block the traffic because the rather use the street or they decide to use the pedestrian side of the sidewalk. The frickin bikelane is as big as the pedestrian one. There is no excuse not to use it and they still won't! One of them almost hit me if I hadn't dodge it. If the cyclist only drove a few inches to the left there would have been a bikelane and it wouldn't happened. Of course the person didn't apologize and just cursed at me.",
">\n\nBike gutters are awful and less safe than taking the lane. Assholes park in the bike lanes ALL THE TIME. Plus no one ever looks behind them when getting out pf their car so getting smacked by a door is a real danger. Drivers are entitled but it’s not their fault it’s the way we’ve built society to allow and expect them to be.\nETA: next time you’re driving around take a count how many people you see pulled over or parked in a bike gutter.",
">\n\nCompletely agree - I was ran over almost 3 times in Berlin. \nAnd every single time I checked before crossing - but they just suddenly spawned right in the way",
">\n\nDid you cross at a designated crosswalk? As a cyclist the amount of times people just randomly meander across an active street instead of going to the zebra/lollipop crossing, and then get angry at me when I have to swerve out the way/ brake is comical.",
">\n\nMan, y'all are sad people. \n\"Get off the road!\" Okay, now we are on the sidewalk. \n\"Get off the sidewalk!\" Back in the road again. \n\"They need to ring their bells so we know they're coming! Btw I hate it when they ring their bells so I know they're coming.\"",
">\n\nI hate cyclists like that. I don’t have a car so my bike is my main source of transportation and I don’t ride like that. So far, from what I’ve noticed in my area, I’m the only one that follows the damn rules in my city xD",
">\n\nNo matter where you are and who you are… driver or walker, scooter or flyer… we ALL hate cyclists.",
">\n\nI feel ya. The only thing I hate more than cyclists is electric scooters.",
">\n\nCompletely agree! A cycling license (similar to driving) should be required. Far too many cyclist who doesn’t know (and those who don’t just give a F) about traffic rules.",
">\n\nI completely agree! Cyclists have a lot of rights on the roads, and are very vocal about them, but think they can do whatever the fuck they want at roundabouts and pedestrian crossings.",
">\n\nIt just fascinates me how anyone can walk or drive through a city and genuinely think that bicycles are the problem. Look around you at every turn there are cars jamming the roads. Parked blocking things. Blocking pavements. Driving aggressively. Speeding. Failing to stop. Polluting the air. If they hit you, you are seriously injured or dead. This happens in the thousands. The city absolutely revolves around them.",
">\n\nYou are 100% right. Except I didn't say bicycles are the problem. I said i hate them. I said fuck cars too. I also said bicycles are one of the best alternative for trafic jam in cities.\nCities in Europe weren't made for cars nor bikes. So the problem is the fucking lazy greedy people who decide how to spend our tax money. The problem is people thinking they are all alone on the street. The problem is how stressed everybody is and how it become dangerous.\nNot because I hate how cyclists take revenge from drivers bullies to pedestrians makes me hate a transportation model itself.",
">\n\nIt just seems odd that people can really harp on about cyclists when they are such a trivial issue. Posts like this can get hundreds of replies. People tend to make excuses about cars.",
">\n\nYou just insulted a whole country.",
">\n\nThe Netherlands? It's ok",
">\n\nOk",
">\n\nI judge the actions of the individual not the mode of transport. I find it produces more accurate results.",
">\n\nApparently \"individuals alone are responsible for their own actions\" is the real unpopular opinion here.",
">\n\nIndeed 😀",
">\n\nAs a car driver I also hate cyclists. Saw one on a 45mph the other day despite there being a sidewalk AND a bikelane",
">\n\n45 mph isn't a speed for bike lane or sidewalk. Street is",
">\n\nas a cyclist, I hate pedestrians.\nMy city put in these nice protected bicycle lanes so bikes don't have to ride inches from cars, and boy don't those pedestrians just LOVE using the bike lane as a queuing up spot for the crosswalks. it's just so nice and convenient to get 5 more feet closer to your goal, isn't it? Those bicycles can stop and wait...and feel free to swear at them like THEY are the ones in the wrong.\nBicycles and pedestrians are natural enemies, that's never going to change. There can be only one.",
">\n\nLET'S END THIS NOW !!!!!",
">\n\nanyplace but Holy Ground.",
">\n\ndon't blame all bicyclists for the shitty ones.\nthat would be like saying every person who drives a car is an asshole. or every person who walks on the sidewalk is an asshole.\nsome people are good at getting around. other people are jerks. don't blame everyone for the actions of a small subset of people.",
">\n\nI mean, isn’t that the sentiment over that the popular sub r/fuckcars? The generalization is already being perpetuated from cyclists and “urbanists” in their war against cars.",
">\n\nNot really. That sub mostly hates the focus on cars when designing infrastructure, as well as the forced dependency on cars in our modern world. Not individual drivers.",
">\n\nSure about that? It’s mostly just a bitch-fest about driver errors to further their political agenda.",
">\n\nYea, I'm pretty sure.",
">\n\nReally weird way to get there if that’s the case. Alienating a large portion of the population (car drivers, car riders, people that depend on vehicles for the delivery of goods and services) is not how you get them on your side.",
">\n\nI don't think that's their goal in the first place. It's just a reddit sub.",
">\n\nEspecially when they have a stupid fucking bell and say \"on the left\" then proceed to be on the right side of the trail running into you",
">\n\nHahahha \"is he coming on the left or should i go on the lef...\" BANG!!",
">\n\nGF lives in a college town. It’s as if there’s some kinda fuckin’ death wish among the student cycling population",
">\n\nAs a [insert anyone, including cyclist], I hate cyclists.",
">\n\nPeople don't wanna hear it when it comes from automobilists because \"gngn cars are more dangerous and drivers are entitled\" but reality is cyclists are just the worst. Whether I'm on foot, driving a car, or riding a bicycle myself, cyclists are always always the ones being absolute public hazards. Heck, when I'm on my bike and stop at the stop sign on a cycle lane to let the cars go, they look at me as if I'm jesus or something. They even try to let me pass first because of how used they are to cyclists who just can't be bothered to respect the damn stop sign.",
">\n\nThe problem isn't the cyclists here, it's the lacking infrastructure.",
">\n\nWe shouldn't have to build infrastructure so people can partake in recreation. I find that comment extremely arrogant. Why on earth do cyclists deserve to have their recreation glorified and catered to??",
">\n\nRecreation? Ah yes, cycling is only for recreation.",
">\n\nWell, where I live that I'd the ONLY purpose. I'm 17 miles from any city municipality. Nobody is biking here to go to the grocery store or work.",
">\n\nNot everything is about you personally.",
">\n\nTo me, it is, and should be. My concern is around how cyclists inconvenience me while I'm trying to be a productive member of society. I feel like that's a fair critique.",
">\n\nYou are mad that cyclists inconvenience you yet you reject dedicated infrastructure as a solution. Do you think cyclists should be banned off the road completely?",
">\n\nThe real issue here is lacking cycling infrastructure.",
">\n\nDefinitely a major issue.\nBut part of the issue is definitely cyclists who prioritize their own speed over the safety and welfare of everyone around them. It's like they are all BMW drivers, deep down, and just don't want to yield to or slow down for anyone.",
">\n\nI'm sure there are, assholes exist in all vehicle types.",
">\n\nCyclists know thar neither the pavement nor the road are theirs because motorists and pedestrians like you are both screaming at them all the time. And I swear you'd be angrier if they didn't give a polite warning that they're coming toward you. \nCyclists who breeze through crossings instead of stopping are a minority, much like cyclists are a minority in general, and you can't judge an entire group that aren't adequately represented",
">\n\nFuck traveling in general",
">\n\nYa. Where are our transporters! \nSorry had to go full nerd.",
">\n\nI see posts like this constantly. It blows my mind people can just choose one thing that is so insignificant to scapegoat. \nThey assume people on bikes don’t also walk, drive, etc like we are essentially subhuman for doing exercise / running errands in this way because they are inconvenienced for a few seconds. You realize we are human like you , right?\nPeople tell us to ride bicycles on the sidewalk when it’s illegal while others say not too. It’s usually against the law.\nThey tell us to ride closer to the right side of the road , so we get hit by a car door and yelled at again. \nThey’re mad that we give a verbal signal that we’re coming up on the left even though that’s the law. \nNow that I’m in Colorado I’m getting yelled at for the Idaho stop, which is completely legal. We yield to stop signs and temporarily stop at red lights only if it’s clear. It’s all to REDUCE CAR TRAFFIC. \nKeep in mind we are riding bicycles which in its own right REDUCES CAR TRAFFIC. \n80% of car trips are within 3 miles from your house. Everyone that rides a bike keeps you from being stuck behind them in traffic for longer then the 20 seconds you’re currently inconvenienced. It’s also mean parking closer to the front door of a shop. \nSo far I’ve had family members die from hit and runs and drunk drivers, but somehow cyclists are the most dangerous thing on the road today?! It’s not adding up.\nWhat is this really about?",
">\n\nI'm sorry for your losses. I never said bikers are the most dangerous things on the road. Saying this would be stupid. The problem in my city is the lack of respect from cyclists to pedestrians in a general way. I'm not even talking about drivers against EVERYTHING ON THE STREET.",
">\n\nI go out of my way to be respectful to everybody, and I’ve had nothing but kindness and respect from other cyclists .\nYou wanna blame everybody on a bicycle for all your problems when it’s really just about a few people who disrespected you. \nCyclists are drivers, walkers, etc. do they just jump on a bicycle and instantly become disrespectful?\nStill doesn’t make any logical sense.",
">\n\nDude you just don't get it.. i understand biking is your life.. but come on.\nI use to bike 40km per day to work. \nI don't have problems with people jumping on bikes. I simply hate the ones that are disrespectful.\nIs it too hard to understand? Just me venting coz I feel like a lot of bikers think they are on top of the citizen pyramid? \nI'm not venting about the system here, nor about cars.. just about some (yes some) bikers.\nAnd please there is no need to beg for upvotes on fuckcars how old are you?",
">\n\nI bet your fat.",
">\n\nOf course I fart !",
">\n\nTo you yours and to mine mine; I hate car users and their ilk who are filled with wonton waste and hate for all else who dare travel near them. I stop at all lights, halt for all signs, use a mirror, lights, and hand signals, pull over for cars coming my way so long as there is any room, and use what little biking infrastructure is available to me.\nMy taxes are waste and paid in folly for they assuredly go in portion to your reckless use of a powerful machine and not to my own reckless use of a small self-propelled stick on two wheels to separate lanes and keep them maintained. No, no, I must settle for the gutter and cry glee for that and be ashamed to move to the sidewalk when it suddenly ends and continues a block later down the road. \nFuck your car, your roads, and your selfish desire to pave the world and create cities with 60% of their coverage dedicated to driving a car, parking a car, and separating the world into places for cars and otherwise. You who drive faster and faster, in bigger and bigger cars. I loath you as you loath mine.",
">\n\nI wouldn’t hate cyclists if they didn’t act like road laws don’t apply to em in the city where I live. I’ve seen cyclists not even stop at red lights even with an almost full intersection, and ride the wrong way down one ways.\nEdit: I do wish the city where I live had more bike lanes but yeah.",
">\n\nIf you're going to hate someone, maybe hate the people actually doing those things.\nIf I see someone on a bike rush through a short break on a red light in an otherwise busy intersection, I shake my head and think they are an idiot. I think this while waiting for the light to turn green on my bike.\nSimilarly, when a car illegally stops in a bike lane (which happens ALL THE TIME by the way), I don't turn around and blame the cars moving along legally in the adjacent lane.",
">\n\nPedestrian are the worst.\nWhen i started using bicicle I was very polite: brake, ring, ask for permission. And what the large amount of people do? Ignore u, watch u in the eyes and take a step in the fucking middle of the trail (many many times! for real!), shout at you just because u exist. So.... At some point is fuck you all, I'm coming go out of the way. That's it",
">\n\n\nI will never drive nor park on a bike lane, always look into the mirror to be careful of one of you monkeys. So why can't you be careful when us peasants are walking?\n\nThis is dumb. Obviously there are plenty of cyclists who are careful and courteous about your safety. That's part of what a bell or \"watch out!\" (generally \"On your left\") is doing for you. And just because you are courteous to them doesn't mean everyone is. Is every driver a douchebag just because some of them crowd cyclists when and where the cyclist has the right to the road? No.",
">\n\nThe difference here is that generally car drivers are going to be held accountable for bad driving. This is in the form of dash cams, ANPR and red light cameras which catch drivers doing bad things and they can receive a fine or points on their licence. Cyclists currently can't be held accountable if they jump red lights or hit a car or pedestrian as there isn't anything that helps identify them. This is a big issue in cities. I live and work in London and see many cyclists jumping red lights and weaving around pedestrians crossing. Cars can't do this as most traffic lights have red light cameras that would catch this.\nDrivers as a collective (including me) are in no way perfect or even held to account 100% of the time, but I believe we need a system for cyclists to be held accountable too",
">\n\nYour way of thinking, while perfectly rational and natural, is outdated. Traffic law enforcement, like any other law enforcement, is less about the enforcement, and more about the prevention. Where I live, speed and red light cameras are clearly marked ahead so that the people who'd normally break the law follow it instead, making punishment unnecessary. \nSame could be done with cyclists. Sure, you could make every cyclist install a license plate, require a \"cycling license\", or install expensive cameras with facial identification software, but how about just make it so cyclists aren't incentivised to break the law in the first place? \nMake more useful cycling infrastructure, and more cyclists will use it. Make that infrastructure intersect with foot and motor traffic more safely and less often, and less collisions will happen.",
">\n\nI completely understand your point. However, a lot of money has gone into my local area for cycling infrastructure that most cyclists are using, but many are still choosing to break the rules as the rules are inconvenient. The infrastructure is not enough, there needs to be an incentive NOT to break the rules.\nIf you take a look at Chiswick High Road in London, England. They have created segregated cycle lanes from the traffic. These cycle lanes have their own lights and crossings to keep them safe from cars. However many cyclists just ignore the lights and just keep going into pedestrians. There is no punishment for them doing this as they can't be tracked. Personally I think every cyclist should have to register their bike (make it free to help encourage this) and then a new form of ANPR used to also catch cyclists in the act",
">\n\nPersonally I'd have no problem registering my bike for free, especially if I could use that same registration if it gets stolen, but registering something as mechanically simple and cheap as a bicycle is, in my opinion difficult if not impossible to do without making the bike mechanically complex and expensive, at which point most people would just switch to scooters.\nI don't live in London, but from what I've heard, by far the biggest threat in the city is still motorized traffic, namely cars and lorries, and so until that problem is no longer a problem, I wouldn't really do anything special about bikes. Maybe put some undercover bike cops near the most dangerous bike path/lane intersections to catch a few offenders and make an example out of them, but that's about it.",
">\n\nMost cars I’ve driven came equipped with brakes and a steering wheel. I don’t see the problem",
">\n\nA common take and a stupid one.\nThere are good and bad drivers, pedestrians, and cyclists. Hating any of them as a group because some of them do bad things is just dumb.",
">\n\nIf you followed the laws and stayed out of the bike lane as a pedestrian there would be no problem.",
">\n\nIf bicyclists followed the laws and stopped ignoring street signs/traffic lights there would be no problem.",
">\n\nDon’t see how this address the problem with pedestrians in bike lanes.",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Drivers pedestrians other cyclists. They're a scourge.",
">\n\nEvery word of this is pure wisdom.",
">\n\nAs a car driver, I too hate cyclists.\nI don't care who has 'right of way'. I'm in a car, you're not. If we collide, regardless of fault, you're the one that dies.\nDo you really want to die on the hill that says \"i can bike on the rode b/c it's legal\"?\nI might be in jail, but you're still dead.\nBikes don't belong on public roads. Unless there's a bike lane - aka, a pathway designed specifically for bikers.\nIt's FAR SAFER to bike on the sidewalk.",
">\n\nBe careful you’ll anger r/fuckcars",
">\n\nI recently got a bike in Japan and there isn't any room on the street to ride my bike. Most people are fine when I'm on the sidewalk, however, the worst ones are groups of 2 or more who try and take up as much space as possible allowing nobody to pass. Same with the people who constantly switch between the left and right side of the sidewalk. It's really annoying to see how little spacial awareness they have.",
">\n\nCyclists on the road don’t have to pass the same test as vehicles on the road, which is why they are so bad. If there was a test in order to cycle on the road then i think it would be alot better",
">\n\nWhy do you hate all cyclists when only some of them are rude/dangerous?",
">\n\nCope hehe",
">\n\nIt's the powered vehicles that kill most pedestrians.\nBut, sure, cyclists blahblah...",
">\n\nAs an occasional cyclist, I don't like you either.",
">\n\nI biked everywhere.....when I was a child. I'm an adult now and have an automobile. They are pretty neat.",
">\n\nWhen I used to have to walk to work I’d walk on the sidewalk and listen to music and one time this guy zipped right by me yelling almost knocking me over and flipped me off?? They act like they don’t have breaks lmao",
">\n\nholy smokes! glad you're ok",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Even cyclists.",
">\n\nAnd here i thought why the f pediatrician hate cyclists",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Even other cyclists.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist this thread is hilarious",
">\n\nAnyone got recommendations for how to be a nice, considerate cyclist besides being careful and non-entitled? I plan on starting when it gets warm outside.",
">\n\nNot unpopular",
">\n\nWhen I drive to work, I obey most of the rules. I just can't drive on some roads. That would either kill me at some point or I'd slow down a whole 60 km/h lane that's packed with traffic. When riding on the sidewalk, I always stop or get off my bike if it gets too crowded or the sidewalk narrows. But when no one is around I just keep driving normally, just slower than usual. I try to stay alert at all times and let everyone pass because I know I'm wrong here.\nAt one point there is a one-way street I'm not allowed to drive on, but as my alternatives are the same 60km/h road (but now also with rails) or a crowded sidewalk, I prefer the one-way street with maybe 4 cars per hour that I can easily avoid. After that there is finally a bike path until I get to work. There would be a legal route, but it would take twice, if not triple, the time.\nI also hate reckless cyclists. They have already endangered me and are often unfriendly assholes. I just don't have a death wish and don't want to drive a route in an hour if 20 minutes are possible in a safe way (If the brain gets used).",
">\n\nCyclists don’t care because unless they get injured there are no real consequences for their actions.\nI think that any vehicle, with or without any type of motor, should require a license to operate on a public roadway. Road legal bikes need to be held to quality standards, like cars, and should also be registered. If you wish to ride one on a public roadway it should have a number plate on it. You should have to pass a rider’s ed course proving that you know the rules of the road. There should be a test proving that you can control the vehicle and operate it safely, same as a car or motorcycle.",
">\n\nYeah I’ve nearly been run over from behind by cyclists on sidewalks too many times",
">\n\nIdk maybe my town is weird like everwhere on the internet and even in statistics you hear stuff like that but then I haven't really seen any cyclists run red lights ever and as someone who maybe not often but sometimes cycles, the last thing I'd do as a cyclist is run a red light like I don't wanna die?",
">\n\nOnly people that like cyclist.. are probably just other cyclists.",
">\n\nI don’t mind normal, law-abiding cyclists at all. I just despise the ones that think they can choose whether to act like a car or pedestrian whenever they feel like it. Or worse, they don’t know the actual laws but think they are special just because they are riding a bike.",
">\n\nSometimes I feel like I am the only one watching out for pedestrians. For example when there's a crosswalk coming up that goes over the bike path and there's someone waiting, I always yield and the person waiting is often surprised since most people on bicycles just carry on. So not all cyclists are like that.",
">\n\nAs a pedestrian, cyclist and driver, I hate taxis.",
">\n\nI once almost got hit by a cyclist who failed to stop at a stop sign",
">\n\nCyclist have it both ways which isn’t fair. They can drive on the road AND the sidewalk and use pedestrian crossings when they feel like it. It’s like they have no road rules once on a bike. \nOn the sidewalk I have to get outta the way? No bikeperson. You shouldn’t even be on the sidewalk in the first place! Maybe if you’re under 10 but otherwise drive your vehicle on the road like all other adults!",
">\n\nI knew a cyclist who would always talk shit about cars. He told me he’s been hit TEN TIMES. UMMM?? If you’ve been hit ten times then it’s not the cars fault…",
">\n\nYou must be from New York lol fuck the cyclists up there",
">\n\nAmen brother"
] |
>
Yeah hitting people out of anger rather than doing the right thing is so funny
|
[
"I road cycled for years, I always followed the street rules. Always. Red light means red light. \nI have so many cycling friends who get into accidents and other conflicts with drivers, and yet they think it’s stupid to stop at a red light. They just don’t connect these two things",
">\n\nMost bikers I encounter are complete idiots. Like I'd be driving normally and out of nowhere comes a biker on a crosswalk in full speed. Now, I appreciate bikers who actually stop and make eye contact with me as I'm driving towards the crosswalk but man, it's either that or the biker almost dies because I have no time to brake.\nAnd what's up with all the bikers going like 5 kmh IN THE MIDDLE of a road when there's a dedicated sidewalk for bikers right next to them? Drives me insane.",
">\n\nIt seems like most bikers because of observation bias.\nIf you follow the rules as you should, you’re unmemorable.\nAs for the sidewalks - its actually less safe on the sidewalk.",
">\n\nInteresting. Dangerous situations are more valuable to remember, and I remember tons of irresponsible bikers. It is in fact observation bias. But I'm always happy to see those who pay close attention to traffic, and I do remeber some of them aswell.",
">\n\nWell the same goes for driving. How many cars do you remember when they haven’t done anything? But you tend to remember the ones who do something dumb",
">\n\nYeah it can be applied to anything really.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist in one of the most bike-dense cities in the world, I hate cyclists too. If I could avoid getting myself hurt, I’d be ramming at least ten of them a day just to teach a lesson about ignoring rules and common sense.",
">\n\nAmsterdam? Copenhagen?",
">\n\nCopenhagen. It’s a wonderful bike city but the people are incredibly self-centered.",
">\n\nI had high expectations from cyclists when I first visited the city, after all it is heralded as a cycling paradise and, well, let’s say it looked a lot more like the rest of the world and mainly because of the personal behavior of cyclists.\nMy local friend justified it, stating that it’s because danish are more temperamental than all other Scandinavians: an explanation that I really didn’t know what to do with…",
">\n\nIf “temperamental” means “a bunch of egotistical [insert unflattering body part]”, he’s right.",
">\n\nYou make it sound like a war zone. I live in Copenhagen and most of the time biking around the city is very pleasant. Except for the food delivery scooters, they can 🤬 off.",
">\n\nI guess it depends on how often and where you’re going. If you have places to be each and every day and want to get there effectively, people ignoring general rules and courtesies of the road are a pain. If you’re one of the types listening to podcasts with a latte in one hand and a phone in the other just trudging along, it’s probably fine.",
">\n\nSame! I love walking. Where I live on popular trails, there are bike lanes, but the cyclists will just ride wherever they. They don’t care and won’t let you know they’re coming. They’ll get pissy if you don’t just automatically know they’re coming up from behind you. If you do much as step foot in the bike lane, they get mad, but have no problems riding side by side outside the bike lane.",
">\n\nSame here! So much for my pleasant walk on the beautiful Trail. They sneak up and when they're almost on top of me, a loud voice yells \"On your left!\" They startle the shit out of me and cause me to jump sky high! 😡",
">\n\nIt’s literally the law to say that. This thread is all about hating them no matter if they follow the law or not.",
">\n\nIs it possible to do that without sneaking up on them and startling the shit out of them by yelling real loud? And then cutting is close to them as you possibly can without hitting them?",
">\n\nHello. \nMy useless comment to this post is here :D\nSo, i work in the accidents department of a big insurance company. My country is very strickt about the road rules, meaning:\nOur company estimates (is this the right word?) that around 82% of accidents involving cyclists, are to blame on the cyclist. Since there are expecific places on the road for you to ride your bike, even if it's not a bike lane.\nI remember a case where 3 dudes were just cycling, outside of town and they were literally on the middle of the road. the place where they were is full of curves and has very little visibility, so they were riding side by side, middle of the road, comes a car, hits not one, but the 3 of them because they scared the person and she just swerved the car.\nThey sued her and us (insurance) 2 times. Lost both and had to pay for all damage done on the car by their own bodys",
">\n\nThis sounds like something that happened near by my home town, are you in Ontario?",
">\n\nno XD portugal",
">\n\nGod its so much worse that it's happened in multiple places.\nIn ours I think the driver killed one of the cyclists, then sued the family for emotional damage",
">\n\nMy biggest gripe about cyclists is that there is always some danger when you encounter them on the road, either as a pedestrian or motorist. Now, part of it isn’t their fault. At least here in the US, not much of the infrastructure is made for bicycles. But cyclists are constantly breaking the rules of the road (or sidewalk) to get where they’re going faster. Blowing red lights, leaving the bike lane to use the sidewalk, splitting lanes. I always clench a little when I approach one, wondering if this is the day I can’t get out of the way.",
">\n\nWe have that same problem, but then a million times worse, because I live in The Netherlands. You probably know about our proud cycling culture (the Amsterdam stereotype). And yes, cyclists here are just as bad as the ones you describe, but there’s a lot more of them here. And oh yeah, traffic laws are almost always in their favor.",
">\n\nI found driving in the towns of the Netherlands so hard. Not just because I was on the wrong side of the road 😉 but because I just wasn’t used to sooo many cyclists coming from all directions, always faster than me and passing on both sides. Even as I was signalling to leave a roundabout at one point about three cyclists rode past on the inside. I really struggled to keep up with them all, which of course means I drove slower and thus even more bikes passed me!",
">\n\nYes that is of course very difficult, however as a Dutchman I’m used to cyclists, so of course we struggle a lot less. But that doesn’t take away from the fact that cyclists do cause a lot of issues because of their careless behavior, and because as drivers we have to accommodate them. That one sided ‘deal’ that we have makes it very difficult to deal with them.\nAll in all I’m happy we have so many cyclists as it’s good for the environment. But the utopian mindset of cyclists being a gift to the world is just stupid. Especially when you consider that mostly Americans who drive on wide open roads with barely any cyclists around are the ones praising cyclists in my country all the time. Also, cyclists annoy the hell out of pedestrians as well, so it’s not just about motorists.",
">\n\nCyclists treat red lights like stop signs and stop signs like yield signs (at best). They’re not allowed on sidewalks but do it anyway. Fuckin hate cyclists.",
">\n\nEverything you said is completely legal in Denver and sidewalks are illegal , but drivers constantly scream at cyclists to ride there",
">\n\nCyclist can roll stop signs and run red lights in Denver? What the fuck?",
">\n\nI’d have no problem if cyclist had respect for other road users. where I live there are cycle lanes, but most cyclists are on the road or pavements, they ignore red lights etc. \nIf you want to cycle please make it’s safe for yourself and others around you.",
">\n\nExactly my thoughts",
">\n\nHonestly, selfish assholes exist everywhere but a selfish asshole on a bicycle does a lot less damage than a selfish asshole in a car. \nEDIT: OP's also downvoting everyone who disagrees with him, just fyi.",
">\n\nAs a pedestrian, I hate everyone who's not a pedestrian... And some pedestrians too.",
">\n\nThere's a reason so many cyclists die each year, they all seem to pick and choose which laws they want to follow. Its always safer to assume they'll do whatever they want and everyone else needs to adapt to them.",
">\n\nAs a driver downtown, I don't worry at all about pedestrians at intersections, I can turn my head and assume they will be maybe five feet closer to my car when I look back, (and I trust they won't sprint towards me when I look away, at their own peril), but bikes, they ride so fast, that in the short time I turn my head to check for oncoming traffic, a bike could materialize right beside / infront me, and I risk hitting them or them hitting the side of my car. And that's even in their designated bike lane, that I have to pass through to clear the intersection. And if I drive into a ped at three miles per hour, they will just hit my hood with their fist and call me a stupid motherfucker, or whatever makes them feel justice was served, but if I bump the bike, it will be a big crash, the bicyclist will be all curled up in a ball on the ground, I'll be the bad guy in the eyes of the law and anyone nearby, and I'll probably be late as fuck to wherever it is I'm trying to go to.",
">\n\nI skateboard so I guess I'm good",
">\n\nJust don’t inconvenience narcissistic car drivers by a few seconds.",
">\n\nI think everyone hates cyclists. Cyclists included.",
">\n\nAs a driver, I hate you both",
">\n\nPedestrians are literally the worst. Anyone who has to walk more than 20 feet a day and not to their car are complete losers, and should be jailed on site.",
">\n\nOK, I think that's a bit extreme. But hey, if you're running for public office I'll vote for you. \nI do have to wonder anytime I see someone that I know has the mental faculties to drive who is walking. Usually assume too many DUI's.",
">\n\nr/fuckcars ripping out their hair rn",
">\n\nNot unpopular.\n Everyone hates cyclists.",
">\n\nI casually cycle in the summer. If I'm on a trail, I'll slow down and ring my bell if I see pedestrians, or stop and dismount if there's a lot of people or they don't notice me. Especially on the narrow trails in this woodlot I sometimes go to. \nThe problem is a lot of cyclists, especially in North America, but perhaps other places, just aren't respectful of others. They demand car drivers \"share the road\", but then ride in huge packs, lane split, don't signal turns, run stop signs and red lights, weave in and out of traffic, boot up busy sidewalks at 15-20mph, refuse to use provided bike lanes, etc. There's like a gross sense of entitlement in the cycling community. Dude, you're still a vehicle. There's rules that apply to you, just like there are for cars and motorcycles. Big problem is difficulty/lack of enforcement. Cops have to catch them in the act. Even then they're slippery devils since they're usually more mobile than a cruiser or beat cop on foot. This is why I support plating bikes to make them easily identifiable.",
">\n\n\nThere's like a gross sense of entitlement in the cycling community. Dude, you're still a vehicle. There's rules that apply to you, just like there are for cars and motorcycles.\n\nThat is the problem right there. They want to be treated equal to car owners, yet they do not abide by traffic rules, hence all the accidents.",
">\n\nAs a driver, I concur.",
">\n\nI hate bikers on trails. They're supposed to stop and let hikers by but they never do. They go by so freakin' fast too. It's like come on now!",
">\n\nAs a mostly former cyclist, I often hated cyclists too. Mostly, because so many cyclist are just competitive asshats that suck the pleasure out of their own bike ride by making everything about speed. Like, heaven forbid they have to slow and yield to anyone.\nOnce, I was riding my bicycle with my young daughter on a bike path in the city. A couple cyclist came up and got all pissy at us, saying we need to be out of the cycle lane because we were going too slow and my 8 year old kid wasn't keeping to a narrow lane. It was so hostile - my kid started crying.\nBut that is just so typical, all the time. I've gotten yelled out a few times when I made a full, foot down stop at a redlight because the cyclist behind me was expecting me to either run the redlight or at least go into the crosswalk and dance around (like they do) until it went green. I remember nearly getting run over by cyclists all the time, and yelled at if I was going too slow.\nThat being said, we need to do 100,000 x more in the US towards making bike paths, protected bike lanes, etc., because cyling is a truly great way to get around and I miss it. I just don't miss the self-centered asshats that dominate the cycling community.",
">\n\nThis!",
">\n\nI’ve nothing against cyclists as a group. I prefer to hate all people who do stupid things whether they’re in cars, on bikes or walking. Went to pick my daughter up tonight and counted six cyclists in the dark wearing all black with no lights at all plus one with a light so weak I didn’t see it until I was nearly past him. Tonight it was dumb cyclists, but tomorrow it might be idiots in cars. Hate the idiots not the method of transportation.",
">\n\nTrue !",
">\n\nOMG YES !! I completely agree. Every time i tried to explain this to a friend, they would always look at me like I am crazy for thinking such a thing. But as I walk for 45 minutes every days, it became a reality you can't ignore... I can't count how many times I nearly got hit by a cyclist, it happens every other week. I am starting to think that cyclists should have to go through a \"course\" to learn the basics of using the streets x)\n(Sorry for mistakes, not native here 'x) )",
">\n\nThis is my story lol..",
">\n\nYes, and it also is my personal experience, which is why I posted this..?",
">\n\nYes I totally agree. Just saying \"that's my life\" :) happening in Brussels tho",
">\n\nMy bad x) welp France here, it amazes me in a really bad way how this seems to be such a common phenomenon literaly EVERYWHERE",
">\n\nJ'ai roulé en vélo à Paris et laisse tomber l'enfer que c'était. J'avais l'impression d'avancer avec des oies qui insultaient tout le monde. BAa bAAA BAaaAa !!! \nLe problème c'est que plus les gens sont stressés (même les piétons... Genre dans le metro) plus ils se haïssent et ce matin j'avais la haine sur les vélos.. en vrai j'ai la haine sur tous les citadins haha",
">\n\nas a cyclist I hate everyone",
">\n\nSame, I see posts like this where people tell us to ride on the sidewalk when it’s illegal. \nThey assume we don’t walk anywhere, drive, etc like we are essentially subhuman for doing exercise.\nThey tell us to ride closer to the right side of the road so we get hit by a car door. \nThey’re mad that we give a verbal signal that we’re coming up on the left even though that’s the law. \nnow that I’m in Colorado I’m getting yelled at for the Idaho stop, which is completely legal. We yield to stop signs and temporarily stop at red light only till it’s clear. It’s all to REDUCE CAR TRAFFIC.\nSo far I’ve had family members die from hit and runs and drunk drivers, but somehow cyclists are the most dangerous thing on the road today.\nWhat is this really about?",
">\n\nI loathe cyclists. Selfish, entitled lycra lunatics.",
">\n\nBe honest, do you realize that it's possible to ride a bicycle and not be selfish, or entitled, or a lunatic, or not wear lycra?",
">\n\nThis thread is such a circlejerk, it's ridiculous.",
">\n\nThat's what I'm here for",
">\n\nIt's because cycling isn't regulated like motor vehicles are but they still get on the roads unlike pedestrians. So they don't have knowledge on the rules of the road that drivers have.\nThere's also some sort of hypocrisy they have where they believe drivers should give way to them because bikes are more vulnerable than cars while expecting pedestrians to give way to them because they're moving faster.",
">\n\n\nSo they don't have knowledge on the rules of the road\n\nPlenty do. Many cyclists also are automobilists. They just feel like they're exempted from respecting trafic rules because it's tiring to stop and go on a bike and they're slower an lighter than cars.",
">\n\nSure you got hit by a truck, but at least you managed to save yourself a little time and avoid waiting for a few seconds. Is what I'd say if they didn't then end up in the hospital",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists, as it should be.",
">\n\nCyclists shouldn’t be on sidewalks",
">\n\nI also cringe a lot when I see the international Reddit community constantly praise us Dutch people for our biking culture. People have no idea how many traffic accidents we get that could have been avoided if we didn’t have cyclists EVERYWHERE who are barely aware of the traffic rules that also apply to them.\nPeople have no idea about how cyclists are almost always right according to our traffic laws, which makes them much more reckless. They cause millions of dollars of damage to cars (and pedestrians) each year, and barely ever face consequences for their irresponsible and reckless behavior in traffic.\nPeople don’t see how cyclists often block traffic because they like to cycle next to each other in pairs, and if you honk they get angry and sometimes even aggressive and try to break your side mirror if they feel like it.\nMany intersections have bicycle lanes that you need to check when making a turn when driving, even though the intersection is already super busy with lots of cars. And guess what, cyclists still ride around fast and recklessly and making sure you don’t hit another car, cyclist AND pedestrian is all the job of one single driver.\nSo all in all, people from countries where driving is a relatively easy and chill thing to do, praise cycling culture in other countries. Try to drive here in busy traffic with thousands of cars AND (RECKLESS) CYCLISTS on the road and then tell me what it’s like.",
">\n\nIt would be much easier to sympathize with cars drivers if they did not need like 60% of the entire transit space leaving cyclists and pedestrians very little.\n\neven though the intersection is already super busy with lots of cars\n\nOfc, because cars are so large and need so much space.",
">\n\nI get that, but why is that my fault? I don’t do the city planning. Besides, cars are much larger than bicycles, so doesn’t it make sense there’s more space needed for cars than for bicycles?\nBut even then, if you don’t want to have any sympathy for motorists, because city planners give them more space than others, that’s just weird. It’s not the motorist’s fault.",
">\n\n\ndoesn’t it make sense there’s more space needed for cars than for bicycles?\n\nWhy a valuable and scarce resource such as the public space in cities should be used predominantly to benefit car users while barring everyone else? \nI just find it much harder to sympathize with the privileged group.",
">\n\nBecause people need to be able to go from A to B?",
">\n\nSo do pedestrians/public transport users/cyclists. But they don't require so much space per person.",
">\n\nWell in The Netherlands public transportation takes up an enormous amount of space and cyclists have their own dedicated lanes almost everywhere. Also motorists have to give public transportation space as we usually have to stop for trams and buses to pass, according to traffic rules. Guess who doesn’t often follow those rules: cyclists.\nHowever, public transportation itself is super busy and unbelievably expensive in The Netherlands. It costs more than 20 Euros to travel ~70 kilometers. That’s why a lot of people still prefer to have a car, and cars simply need infrastructure.\nSo I don’t really get your point. Cars, bicycles and public transportation all get a fair portion of the space that’s available.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist, i hate pedestrians. Here in Germany, there is bike lanes, one part for bikes and one for pedestrians on traffic lights... etc. But the pedestrians just ignore them, form \"walls\" of people blocking the bike lane, dont look while crossing the bike lane. Even cars repect us more than you.",
">\n\nThis I understand. Experienced the same in Denmark",
">\n\nClaaaaaarksoooooonnnnn",
">\n\nIdk about other places but here cyclists are constantly breaking the law and never getting ticketed for it. It makes no sense to me. I don’t think it’d make a huge difference but I do think some cyclists would think twice about disregarding the rules if those rules were actually enforced.",
">\n\nI get the sentiment. My feeling is the root cause is they don’t have their own infrastructure. Cars and peds do. So cyclists are always forced into a non ideal path. \nI’m aware they have rights to the road but cars and bikes really struggle to share an infrastructure clearly made for cars. \nSo if we invest in cycling infrastructure everyone would probably be happier.",
">\n\ndoubt it. In my city there is an asphalt bike path for miles that is like 8 feet wide. Smooth. No stop signs. Do they use it? nope they get their collective ass out on the street and I honestly don't have a clue why.\nIt defies logic. Safter, smooth, not cars/trunks, etc. Here they are out on the street just fiddle farting down a 45 mph road like they own it with a bike path 15 feet away with no one on it. The last guy I asked said \"It is my road as well you know\" that I ran up on while I was at a crossing while riding on the path myself. I just gave up trying to understand. Someone dies on that road every couple of months from bike or pedestrian strike with a vehicle. It was the whole reason they built the path....",
">\n\nWell in my experience there are 2 thing going on there.\na) Often bikers will avoid the path because peds often share or walk across those paths and their speed is closer to that of a car than a ped or \nb) If they are commuting...the path likely isn't going exactly where they need to.\nAs to your specific scenario I don't doubt there are bikers that are hard headed and stubborn. I know a few of those. But generally I do bikers using the infrastructure where we have built it.",
">\n\nThere's an accident here involving @ car running over a cyclist who crossed a red traffic light. And guess who take the blame?",
">\n\nLaughs in being dutch",
">\n\nIt is regrettable that a handful of asshole cyclists ruins everyone’s opinion of us. It really undermines the support needed to improve infrastructure for cycling. \nIf it is any help, when i ring my bell, I am doing so to avoid the alternatives of either yelling a warning or startling people. I normally exit the path and pass on the grass. I would say that most cyclist are the same. I don’t want you to get out of the way, I want you to know I am there. \nBut it only takes a couple assholes that think they own the path or the street. I have a cousin like this and it is difficult to convince him his is wrong and is putting himself and others in danger.",
">\n\nI think the a-holes are people that are only on a bike because it's the easiest thing for them, living where they do. You and those like you are on the bike because you love cycling.",
">\n\nI live in Portland, OR, and the cyclists here are so fucking rude and entitled.",
">\n\nI live in not-Portland OR and visited once. I biked down the road. Could not believe how nice everyone was to me. Probably because they could tell I’m an outsider.",
">\n\nI meant how they treat everyone else who isn't on a bike, tbh.",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists and it's for a simple reason. They think they can do whatever the hell they want. They switch between a pedestrian, a cyclist and a vehicle deciding on the fly whatever rules they feel like following with no accountability. \nOne minute they are skipping traffic, then they are deciding to cross at a crosswalk instead of following traffic. And the sidewalks are bike lanes if that's more convenient.",
">\n\nI just get annoyed because they will ride double wide on a tight street, forcing you to go 60mph in a 45, on the opposite side of traffic, risking a head on collision. And yea, you have to do that, because otherwise cars behind you will start driving aggressive as well as the fact that your expecting all the cars to go at a bikes speed on the road.",
">\n\nThat's because every country except for the Netherlands and Denmark have shit bicycle infrastructure.",
">\n\nI civilised countries we have cycling paths and cycling on the street is also possible as drivers aren't insane. So this seems rather like a problem of poor urban planning than cyclists in general.",
">\n\nWhere I live the cyclists just refuse to take the bikelane and either block the traffic because the rather use the street or they decide to use the pedestrian side of the sidewalk. The frickin bikelane is as big as the pedestrian one. There is no excuse not to use it and they still won't! One of them almost hit me if I hadn't dodge it. If the cyclist only drove a few inches to the left there would have been a bikelane and it wouldn't happened. Of course the person didn't apologize and just cursed at me.",
">\n\nBike gutters are awful and less safe than taking the lane. Assholes park in the bike lanes ALL THE TIME. Plus no one ever looks behind them when getting out pf their car so getting smacked by a door is a real danger. Drivers are entitled but it’s not their fault it’s the way we’ve built society to allow and expect them to be.\nETA: next time you’re driving around take a count how many people you see pulled over or parked in a bike gutter.",
">\n\nCompletely agree - I was ran over almost 3 times in Berlin. \nAnd every single time I checked before crossing - but they just suddenly spawned right in the way",
">\n\nDid you cross at a designated crosswalk? As a cyclist the amount of times people just randomly meander across an active street instead of going to the zebra/lollipop crossing, and then get angry at me when I have to swerve out the way/ brake is comical.",
">\n\nMan, y'all are sad people. \n\"Get off the road!\" Okay, now we are on the sidewalk. \n\"Get off the sidewalk!\" Back in the road again. \n\"They need to ring their bells so we know they're coming! Btw I hate it when they ring their bells so I know they're coming.\"",
">\n\nI hate cyclists like that. I don’t have a car so my bike is my main source of transportation and I don’t ride like that. So far, from what I’ve noticed in my area, I’m the only one that follows the damn rules in my city xD",
">\n\nNo matter where you are and who you are… driver or walker, scooter or flyer… we ALL hate cyclists.",
">\n\nI feel ya. The only thing I hate more than cyclists is electric scooters.",
">\n\nCompletely agree! A cycling license (similar to driving) should be required. Far too many cyclist who doesn’t know (and those who don’t just give a F) about traffic rules.",
">\n\nI completely agree! Cyclists have a lot of rights on the roads, and are very vocal about them, but think they can do whatever the fuck they want at roundabouts and pedestrian crossings.",
">\n\nIt just fascinates me how anyone can walk or drive through a city and genuinely think that bicycles are the problem. Look around you at every turn there are cars jamming the roads. Parked blocking things. Blocking pavements. Driving aggressively. Speeding. Failing to stop. Polluting the air. If they hit you, you are seriously injured or dead. This happens in the thousands. The city absolutely revolves around them.",
">\n\nYou are 100% right. Except I didn't say bicycles are the problem. I said i hate them. I said fuck cars too. I also said bicycles are one of the best alternative for trafic jam in cities.\nCities in Europe weren't made for cars nor bikes. So the problem is the fucking lazy greedy people who decide how to spend our tax money. The problem is people thinking they are all alone on the street. The problem is how stressed everybody is and how it become dangerous.\nNot because I hate how cyclists take revenge from drivers bullies to pedestrians makes me hate a transportation model itself.",
">\n\nIt just seems odd that people can really harp on about cyclists when they are such a trivial issue. Posts like this can get hundreds of replies. People tend to make excuses about cars.",
">\n\nYou just insulted a whole country.",
">\n\nThe Netherlands? It's ok",
">\n\nOk",
">\n\nI judge the actions of the individual not the mode of transport. I find it produces more accurate results.",
">\n\nApparently \"individuals alone are responsible for their own actions\" is the real unpopular opinion here.",
">\n\nIndeed 😀",
">\n\nAs a car driver I also hate cyclists. Saw one on a 45mph the other day despite there being a sidewalk AND a bikelane",
">\n\n45 mph isn't a speed for bike lane or sidewalk. Street is",
">\n\nas a cyclist, I hate pedestrians.\nMy city put in these nice protected bicycle lanes so bikes don't have to ride inches from cars, and boy don't those pedestrians just LOVE using the bike lane as a queuing up spot for the crosswalks. it's just so nice and convenient to get 5 more feet closer to your goal, isn't it? Those bicycles can stop and wait...and feel free to swear at them like THEY are the ones in the wrong.\nBicycles and pedestrians are natural enemies, that's never going to change. There can be only one.",
">\n\nLET'S END THIS NOW !!!!!",
">\n\nanyplace but Holy Ground.",
">\n\ndon't blame all bicyclists for the shitty ones.\nthat would be like saying every person who drives a car is an asshole. or every person who walks on the sidewalk is an asshole.\nsome people are good at getting around. other people are jerks. don't blame everyone for the actions of a small subset of people.",
">\n\nI mean, isn’t that the sentiment over that the popular sub r/fuckcars? The generalization is already being perpetuated from cyclists and “urbanists” in their war against cars.",
">\n\nNot really. That sub mostly hates the focus on cars when designing infrastructure, as well as the forced dependency on cars in our modern world. Not individual drivers.",
">\n\nSure about that? It’s mostly just a bitch-fest about driver errors to further their political agenda.",
">\n\nYea, I'm pretty sure.",
">\n\nReally weird way to get there if that’s the case. Alienating a large portion of the population (car drivers, car riders, people that depend on vehicles for the delivery of goods and services) is not how you get them on your side.",
">\n\nI don't think that's their goal in the first place. It's just a reddit sub.",
">\n\nEspecially when they have a stupid fucking bell and say \"on the left\" then proceed to be on the right side of the trail running into you",
">\n\nHahahha \"is he coming on the left or should i go on the lef...\" BANG!!",
">\n\nGF lives in a college town. It’s as if there’s some kinda fuckin’ death wish among the student cycling population",
">\n\nAs a [insert anyone, including cyclist], I hate cyclists.",
">\n\nPeople don't wanna hear it when it comes from automobilists because \"gngn cars are more dangerous and drivers are entitled\" but reality is cyclists are just the worst. Whether I'm on foot, driving a car, or riding a bicycle myself, cyclists are always always the ones being absolute public hazards. Heck, when I'm on my bike and stop at the stop sign on a cycle lane to let the cars go, they look at me as if I'm jesus or something. They even try to let me pass first because of how used they are to cyclists who just can't be bothered to respect the damn stop sign.",
">\n\nThe problem isn't the cyclists here, it's the lacking infrastructure.",
">\n\nWe shouldn't have to build infrastructure so people can partake in recreation. I find that comment extremely arrogant. Why on earth do cyclists deserve to have their recreation glorified and catered to??",
">\n\nRecreation? Ah yes, cycling is only for recreation.",
">\n\nWell, where I live that I'd the ONLY purpose. I'm 17 miles from any city municipality. Nobody is biking here to go to the grocery store or work.",
">\n\nNot everything is about you personally.",
">\n\nTo me, it is, and should be. My concern is around how cyclists inconvenience me while I'm trying to be a productive member of society. I feel like that's a fair critique.",
">\n\nYou are mad that cyclists inconvenience you yet you reject dedicated infrastructure as a solution. Do you think cyclists should be banned off the road completely?",
">\n\nThe real issue here is lacking cycling infrastructure.",
">\n\nDefinitely a major issue.\nBut part of the issue is definitely cyclists who prioritize their own speed over the safety and welfare of everyone around them. It's like they are all BMW drivers, deep down, and just don't want to yield to or slow down for anyone.",
">\n\nI'm sure there are, assholes exist in all vehicle types.",
">\n\nCyclists know thar neither the pavement nor the road are theirs because motorists and pedestrians like you are both screaming at them all the time. And I swear you'd be angrier if they didn't give a polite warning that they're coming toward you. \nCyclists who breeze through crossings instead of stopping are a minority, much like cyclists are a minority in general, and you can't judge an entire group that aren't adequately represented",
">\n\nFuck traveling in general",
">\n\nYa. Where are our transporters! \nSorry had to go full nerd.",
">\n\nI see posts like this constantly. It blows my mind people can just choose one thing that is so insignificant to scapegoat. \nThey assume people on bikes don’t also walk, drive, etc like we are essentially subhuman for doing exercise / running errands in this way because they are inconvenienced for a few seconds. You realize we are human like you , right?\nPeople tell us to ride bicycles on the sidewalk when it’s illegal while others say not too. It’s usually against the law.\nThey tell us to ride closer to the right side of the road , so we get hit by a car door and yelled at again. \nThey’re mad that we give a verbal signal that we’re coming up on the left even though that’s the law. \nNow that I’m in Colorado I’m getting yelled at for the Idaho stop, which is completely legal. We yield to stop signs and temporarily stop at red lights only if it’s clear. It’s all to REDUCE CAR TRAFFIC. \nKeep in mind we are riding bicycles which in its own right REDUCES CAR TRAFFIC. \n80% of car trips are within 3 miles from your house. Everyone that rides a bike keeps you from being stuck behind them in traffic for longer then the 20 seconds you’re currently inconvenienced. It’s also mean parking closer to the front door of a shop. \nSo far I’ve had family members die from hit and runs and drunk drivers, but somehow cyclists are the most dangerous thing on the road today?! It’s not adding up.\nWhat is this really about?",
">\n\nI'm sorry for your losses. I never said bikers are the most dangerous things on the road. Saying this would be stupid. The problem in my city is the lack of respect from cyclists to pedestrians in a general way. I'm not even talking about drivers against EVERYTHING ON THE STREET.",
">\n\nI go out of my way to be respectful to everybody, and I’ve had nothing but kindness and respect from other cyclists .\nYou wanna blame everybody on a bicycle for all your problems when it’s really just about a few people who disrespected you. \nCyclists are drivers, walkers, etc. do they just jump on a bicycle and instantly become disrespectful?\nStill doesn’t make any logical sense.",
">\n\nDude you just don't get it.. i understand biking is your life.. but come on.\nI use to bike 40km per day to work. \nI don't have problems with people jumping on bikes. I simply hate the ones that are disrespectful.\nIs it too hard to understand? Just me venting coz I feel like a lot of bikers think they are on top of the citizen pyramid? \nI'm not venting about the system here, nor about cars.. just about some (yes some) bikers.\nAnd please there is no need to beg for upvotes on fuckcars how old are you?",
">\n\nI bet your fat.",
">\n\nOf course I fart !",
">\n\nTo you yours and to mine mine; I hate car users and their ilk who are filled with wonton waste and hate for all else who dare travel near them. I stop at all lights, halt for all signs, use a mirror, lights, and hand signals, pull over for cars coming my way so long as there is any room, and use what little biking infrastructure is available to me.\nMy taxes are waste and paid in folly for they assuredly go in portion to your reckless use of a powerful machine and not to my own reckless use of a small self-propelled stick on two wheels to separate lanes and keep them maintained. No, no, I must settle for the gutter and cry glee for that and be ashamed to move to the sidewalk when it suddenly ends and continues a block later down the road. \nFuck your car, your roads, and your selfish desire to pave the world and create cities with 60% of their coverage dedicated to driving a car, parking a car, and separating the world into places for cars and otherwise. You who drive faster and faster, in bigger and bigger cars. I loath you as you loath mine.",
">\n\nI wouldn’t hate cyclists if they didn’t act like road laws don’t apply to em in the city where I live. I’ve seen cyclists not even stop at red lights even with an almost full intersection, and ride the wrong way down one ways.\nEdit: I do wish the city where I live had more bike lanes but yeah.",
">\n\nIf you're going to hate someone, maybe hate the people actually doing those things.\nIf I see someone on a bike rush through a short break on a red light in an otherwise busy intersection, I shake my head and think they are an idiot. I think this while waiting for the light to turn green on my bike.\nSimilarly, when a car illegally stops in a bike lane (which happens ALL THE TIME by the way), I don't turn around and blame the cars moving along legally in the adjacent lane.",
">\n\nPedestrian are the worst.\nWhen i started using bicicle I was very polite: brake, ring, ask for permission. And what the large amount of people do? Ignore u, watch u in the eyes and take a step in the fucking middle of the trail (many many times! for real!), shout at you just because u exist. So.... At some point is fuck you all, I'm coming go out of the way. That's it",
">\n\n\nI will never drive nor park on a bike lane, always look into the mirror to be careful of one of you monkeys. So why can't you be careful when us peasants are walking?\n\nThis is dumb. Obviously there are plenty of cyclists who are careful and courteous about your safety. That's part of what a bell or \"watch out!\" (generally \"On your left\") is doing for you. And just because you are courteous to them doesn't mean everyone is. Is every driver a douchebag just because some of them crowd cyclists when and where the cyclist has the right to the road? No.",
">\n\nThe difference here is that generally car drivers are going to be held accountable for bad driving. This is in the form of dash cams, ANPR and red light cameras which catch drivers doing bad things and they can receive a fine or points on their licence. Cyclists currently can't be held accountable if they jump red lights or hit a car or pedestrian as there isn't anything that helps identify them. This is a big issue in cities. I live and work in London and see many cyclists jumping red lights and weaving around pedestrians crossing. Cars can't do this as most traffic lights have red light cameras that would catch this.\nDrivers as a collective (including me) are in no way perfect or even held to account 100% of the time, but I believe we need a system for cyclists to be held accountable too",
">\n\nYour way of thinking, while perfectly rational and natural, is outdated. Traffic law enforcement, like any other law enforcement, is less about the enforcement, and more about the prevention. Where I live, speed and red light cameras are clearly marked ahead so that the people who'd normally break the law follow it instead, making punishment unnecessary. \nSame could be done with cyclists. Sure, you could make every cyclist install a license plate, require a \"cycling license\", or install expensive cameras with facial identification software, but how about just make it so cyclists aren't incentivised to break the law in the first place? \nMake more useful cycling infrastructure, and more cyclists will use it. Make that infrastructure intersect with foot and motor traffic more safely and less often, and less collisions will happen.",
">\n\nI completely understand your point. However, a lot of money has gone into my local area for cycling infrastructure that most cyclists are using, but many are still choosing to break the rules as the rules are inconvenient. The infrastructure is not enough, there needs to be an incentive NOT to break the rules.\nIf you take a look at Chiswick High Road in London, England. They have created segregated cycle lanes from the traffic. These cycle lanes have their own lights and crossings to keep them safe from cars. However many cyclists just ignore the lights and just keep going into pedestrians. There is no punishment for them doing this as they can't be tracked. Personally I think every cyclist should have to register their bike (make it free to help encourage this) and then a new form of ANPR used to also catch cyclists in the act",
">\n\nPersonally I'd have no problem registering my bike for free, especially if I could use that same registration if it gets stolen, but registering something as mechanically simple and cheap as a bicycle is, in my opinion difficult if not impossible to do without making the bike mechanically complex and expensive, at which point most people would just switch to scooters.\nI don't live in London, but from what I've heard, by far the biggest threat in the city is still motorized traffic, namely cars and lorries, and so until that problem is no longer a problem, I wouldn't really do anything special about bikes. Maybe put some undercover bike cops near the most dangerous bike path/lane intersections to catch a few offenders and make an example out of them, but that's about it.",
">\n\nMost cars I’ve driven came equipped with brakes and a steering wheel. I don’t see the problem",
">\n\nA common take and a stupid one.\nThere are good and bad drivers, pedestrians, and cyclists. Hating any of them as a group because some of them do bad things is just dumb.",
">\n\nIf you followed the laws and stayed out of the bike lane as a pedestrian there would be no problem.",
">\n\nIf bicyclists followed the laws and stopped ignoring street signs/traffic lights there would be no problem.",
">\n\nDon’t see how this address the problem with pedestrians in bike lanes.",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Drivers pedestrians other cyclists. They're a scourge.",
">\n\nEvery word of this is pure wisdom.",
">\n\nAs a car driver, I too hate cyclists.\nI don't care who has 'right of way'. I'm in a car, you're not. If we collide, regardless of fault, you're the one that dies.\nDo you really want to die on the hill that says \"i can bike on the rode b/c it's legal\"?\nI might be in jail, but you're still dead.\nBikes don't belong on public roads. Unless there's a bike lane - aka, a pathway designed specifically for bikers.\nIt's FAR SAFER to bike on the sidewalk.",
">\n\nBe careful you’ll anger r/fuckcars",
">\n\nI recently got a bike in Japan and there isn't any room on the street to ride my bike. Most people are fine when I'm on the sidewalk, however, the worst ones are groups of 2 or more who try and take up as much space as possible allowing nobody to pass. Same with the people who constantly switch between the left and right side of the sidewalk. It's really annoying to see how little spacial awareness they have.",
">\n\nCyclists on the road don’t have to pass the same test as vehicles on the road, which is why they are so bad. If there was a test in order to cycle on the road then i think it would be alot better",
">\n\nWhy do you hate all cyclists when only some of them are rude/dangerous?",
">\n\nCope hehe",
">\n\nIt's the powered vehicles that kill most pedestrians.\nBut, sure, cyclists blahblah...",
">\n\nAs an occasional cyclist, I don't like you either.",
">\n\nI biked everywhere.....when I was a child. I'm an adult now and have an automobile. They are pretty neat.",
">\n\nWhen I used to have to walk to work I’d walk on the sidewalk and listen to music and one time this guy zipped right by me yelling almost knocking me over and flipped me off?? They act like they don’t have breaks lmao",
">\n\nholy smokes! glad you're ok",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Even cyclists.",
">\n\nAnd here i thought why the f pediatrician hate cyclists",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Even other cyclists.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist this thread is hilarious",
">\n\nAnyone got recommendations for how to be a nice, considerate cyclist besides being careful and non-entitled? I plan on starting when it gets warm outside.",
">\n\nNot unpopular",
">\n\nWhen I drive to work, I obey most of the rules. I just can't drive on some roads. That would either kill me at some point or I'd slow down a whole 60 km/h lane that's packed with traffic. When riding on the sidewalk, I always stop or get off my bike if it gets too crowded or the sidewalk narrows. But when no one is around I just keep driving normally, just slower than usual. I try to stay alert at all times and let everyone pass because I know I'm wrong here.\nAt one point there is a one-way street I'm not allowed to drive on, but as my alternatives are the same 60km/h road (but now also with rails) or a crowded sidewalk, I prefer the one-way street with maybe 4 cars per hour that I can easily avoid. After that there is finally a bike path until I get to work. There would be a legal route, but it would take twice, if not triple, the time.\nI also hate reckless cyclists. They have already endangered me and are often unfriendly assholes. I just don't have a death wish and don't want to drive a route in an hour if 20 minutes are possible in a safe way (If the brain gets used).",
">\n\nCyclists don’t care because unless they get injured there are no real consequences for their actions.\nI think that any vehicle, with or without any type of motor, should require a license to operate on a public roadway. Road legal bikes need to be held to quality standards, like cars, and should also be registered. If you wish to ride one on a public roadway it should have a number plate on it. You should have to pass a rider’s ed course proving that you know the rules of the road. There should be a test proving that you can control the vehicle and operate it safely, same as a car or motorcycle.",
">\n\nYeah I’ve nearly been run over from behind by cyclists on sidewalks too many times",
">\n\nIdk maybe my town is weird like everwhere on the internet and even in statistics you hear stuff like that but then I haven't really seen any cyclists run red lights ever and as someone who maybe not often but sometimes cycles, the last thing I'd do as a cyclist is run a red light like I don't wanna die?",
">\n\nOnly people that like cyclist.. are probably just other cyclists.",
">\n\nI don’t mind normal, law-abiding cyclists at all. I just despise the ones that think they can choose whether to act like a car or pedestrian whenever they feel like it. Or worse, they don’t know the actual laws but think they are special just because they are riding a bike.",
">\n\nSometimes I feel like I am the only one watching out for pedestrians. For example when there's a crosswalk coming up that goes over the bike path and there's someone waiting, I always yield and the person waiting is often surprised since most people on bicycles just carry on. So not all cyclists are like that.",
">\n\nAs a pedestrian, cyclist and driver, I hate taxis.",
">\n\nI once almost got hit by a cyclist who failed to stop at a stop sign",
">\n\nCyclist have it both ways which isn’t fair. They can drive on the road AND the sidewalk and use pedestrian crossings when they feel like it. It’s like they have no road rules once on a bike. \nOn the sidewalk I have to get outta the way? No bikeperson. You shouldn’t even be on the sidewalk in the first place! Maybe if you’re under 10 but otherwise drive your vehicle on the road like all other adults!",
">\n\nI knew a cyclist who would always talk shit about cars. He told me he’s been hit TEN TIMES. UMMM?? If you’ve been hit ten times then it’s not the cars fault…",
">\n\nYou must be from New York lol fuck the cyclists up there",
">\n\nAmen brother",
">\n\nLol. Everyone talks like this. No one likes cyclists. \nExcept me. I legit find it hilarious when they fuck with cars and even pedestrians. I saw a cyclist slap a pedestrian staring at their phone in the middle of the road 2 days ago. Cyclist warned him multiple times so cyclist open palmed him as he passed. Fucking hilarious."
] |
>
A stick in the spokes will solve the issue of a rude cyclist.
A joisting pole will solve the issue of rude pedestrians.
I look forward to the news
|
[
"I road cycled for years, I always followed the street rules. Always. Red light means red light. \nI have so many cycling friends who get into accidents and other conflicts with drivers, and yet they think it’s stupid to stop at a red light. They just don’t connect these two things",
">\n\nMost bikers I encounter are complete idiots. Like I'd be driving normally and out of nowhere comes a biker on a crosswalk in full speed. Now, I appreciate bikers who actually stop and make eye contact with me as I'm driving towards the crosswalk but man, it's either that or the biker almost dies because I have no time to brake.\nAnd what's up with all the bikers going like 5 kmh IN THE MIDDLE of a road when there's a dedicated sidewalk for bikers right next to them? Drives me insane.",
">\n\nIt seems like most bikers because of observation bias.\nIf you follow the rules as you should, you’re unmemorable.\nAs for the sidewalks - its actually less safe on the sidewalk.",
">\n\nInteresting. Dangerous situations are more valuable to remember, and I remember tons of irresponsible bikers. It is in fact observation bias. But I'm always happy to see those who pay close attention to traffic, and I do remeber some of them aswell.",
">\n\nWell the same goes for driving. How many cars do you remember when they haven’t done anything? But you tend to remember the ones who do something dumb",
">\n\nYeah it can be applied to anything really.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist in one of the most bike-dense cities in the world, I hate cyclists too. If I could avoid getting myself hurt, I’d be ramming at least ten of them a day just to teach a lesson about ignoring rules and common sense.",
">\n\nAmsterdam? Copenhagen?",
">\n\nCopenhagen. It’s a wonderful bike city but the people are incredibly self-centered.",
">\n\nI had high expectations from cyclists when I first visited the city, after all it is heralded as a cycling paradise and, well, let’s say it looked a lot more like the rest of the world and mainly because of the personal behavior of cyclists.\nMy local friend justified it, stating that it’s because danish are more temperamental than all other Scandinavians: an explanation that I really didn’t know what to do with…",
">\n\nIf “temperamental” means “a bunch of egotistical [insert unflattering body part]”, he’s right.",
">\n\nYou make it sound like a war zone. I live in Copenhagen and most of the time biking around the city is very pleasant. Except for the food delivery scooters, they can 🤬 off.",
">\n\nI guess it depends on how often and where you’re going. If you have places to be each and every day and want to get there effectively, people ignoring general rules and courtesies of the road are a pain. If you’re one of the types listening to podcasts with a latte in one hand and a phone in the other just trudging along, it’s probably fine.",
">\n\nSame! I love walking. Where I live on popular trails, there are bike lanes, but the cyclists will just ride wherever they. They don’t care and won’t let you know they’re coming. They’ll get pissy if you don’t just automatically know they’re coming up from behind you. If you do much as step foot in the bike lane, they get mad, but have no problems riding side by side outside the bike lane.",
">\n\nSame here! So much for my pleasant walk on the beautiful Trail. They sneak up and when they're almost on top of me, a loud voice yells \"On your left!\" They startle the shit out of me and cause me to jump sky high! 😡",
">\n\nIt’s literally the law to say that. This thread is all about hating them no matter if they follow the law or not.",
">\n\nIs it possible to do that without sneaking up on them and startling the shit out of them by yelling real loud? And then cutting is close to them as you possibly can without hitting them?",
">\n\nHello. \nMy useless comment to this post is here :D\nSo, i work in the accidents department of a big insurance company. My country is very strickt about the road rules, meaning:\nOur company estimates (is this the right word?) that around 82% of accidents involving cyclists, are to blame on the cyclist. Since there are expecific places on the road for you to ride your bike, even if it's not a bike lane.\nI remember a case where 3 dudes were just cycling, outside of town and they were literally on the middle of the road. the place where they were is full of curves and has very little visibility, so they were riding side by side, middle of the road, comes a car, hits not one, but the 3 of them because they scared the person and she just swerved the car.\nThey sued her and us (insurance) 2 times. Lost both and had to pay for all damage done on the car by their own bodys",
">\n\nThis sounds like something that happened near by my home town, are you in Ontario?",
">\n\nno XD portugal",
">\n\nGod its so much worse that it's happened in multiple places.\nIn ours I think the driver killed one of the cyclists, then sued the family for emotional damage",
">\n\nMy biggest gripe about cyclists is that there is always some danger when you encounter them on the road, either as a pedestrian or motorist. Now, part of it isn’t their fault. At least here in the US, not much of the infrastructure is made for bicycles. But cyclists are constantly breaking the rules of the road (or sidewalk) to get where they’re going faster. Blowing red lights, leaving the bike lane to use the sidewalk, splitting lanes. I always clench a little when I approach one, wondering if this is the day I can’t get out of the way.",
">\n\nWe have that same problem, but then a million times worse, because I live in The Netherlands. You probably know about our proud cycling culture (the Amsterdam stereotype). And yes, cyclists here are just as bad as the ones you describe, but there’s a lot more of them here. And oh yeah, traffic laws are almost always in their favor.",
">\n\nI found driving in the towns of the Netherlands so hard. Not just because I was on the wrong side of the road 😉 but because I just wasn’t used to sooo many cyclists coming from all directions, always faster than me and passing on both sides. Even as I was signalling to leave a roundabout at one point about three cyclists rode past on the inside. I really struggled to keep up with them all, which of course means I drove slower and thus even more bikes passed me!",
">\n\nYes that is of course very difficult, however as a Dutchman I’m used to cyclists, so of course we struggle a lot less. But that doesn’t take away from the fact that cyclists do cause a lot of issues because of their careless behavior, and because as drivers we have to accommodate them. That one sided ‘deal’ that we have makes it very difficult to deal with them.\nAll in all I’m happy we have so many cyclists as it’s good for the environment. But the utopian mindset of cyclists being a gift to the world is just stupid. Especially when you consider that mostly Americans who drive on wide open roads with barely any cyclists around are the ones praising cyclists in my country all the time. Also, cyclists annoy the hell out of pedestrians as well, so it’s not just about motorists.",
">\n\nCyclists treat red lights like stop signs and stop signs like yield signs (at best). They’re not allowed on sidewalks but do it anyway. Fuckin hate cyclists.",
">\n\nEverything you said is completely legal in Denver and sidewalks are illegal , but drivers constantly scream at cyclists to ride there",
">\n\nCyclist can roll stop signs and run red lights in Denver? What the fuck?",
">\n\nI’d have no problem if cyclist had respect for other road users. where I live there are cycle lanes, but most cyclists are on the road or pavements, they ignore red lights etc. \nIf you want to cycle please make it’s safe for yourself and others around you.",
">\n\nExactly my thoughts",
">\n\nHonestly, selfish assholes exist everywhere but a selfish asshole on a bicycle does a lot less damage than a selfish asshole in a car. \nEDIT: OP's also downvoting everyone who disagrees with him, just fyi.",
">\n\nAs a pedestrian, I hate everyone who's not a pedestrian... And some pedestrians too.",
">\n\nThere's a reason so many cyclists die each year, they all seem to pick and choose which laws they want to follow. Its always safer to assume they'll do whatever they want and everyone else needs to adapt to them.",
">\n\nAs a driver downtown, I don't worry at all about pedestrians at intersections, I can turn my head and assume they will be maybe five feet closer to my car when I look back, (and I trust they won't sprint towards me when I look away, at their own peril), but bikes, they ride so fast, that in the short time I turn my head to check for oncoming traffic, a bike could materialize right beside / infront me, and I risk hitting them or them hitting the side of my car. And that's even in their designated bike lane, that I have to pass through to clear the intersection. And if I drive into a ped at three miles per hour, they will just hit my hood with their fist and call me a stupid motherfucker, or whatever makes them feel justice was served, but if I bump the bike, it will be a big crash, the bicyclist will be all curled up in a ball on the ground, I'll be the bad guy in the eyes of the law and anyone nearby, and I'll probably be late as fuck to wherever it is I'm trying to go to.",
">\n\nI skateboard so I guess I'm good",
">\n\nJust don’t inconvenience narcissistic car drivers by a few seconds.",
">\n\nI think everyone hates cyclists. Cyclists included.",
">\n\nAs a driver, I hate you both",
">\n\nPedestrians are literally the worst. Anyone who has to walk more than 20 feet a day and not to their car are complete losers, and should be jailed on site.",
">\n\nOK, I think that's a bit extreme. But hey, if you're running for public office I'll vote for you. \nI do have to wonder anytime I see someone that I know has the mental faculties to drive who is walking. Usually assume too many DUI's.",
">\n\nr/fuckcars ripping out their hair rn",
">\n\nNot unpopular.\n Everyone hates cyclists.",
">\n\nI casually cycle in the summer. If I'm on a trail, I'll slow down and ring my bell if I see pedestrians, or stop and dismount if there's a lot of people or they don't notice me. Especially on the narrow trails in this woodlot I sometimes go to. \nThe problem is a lot of cyclists, especially in North America, but perhaps other places, just aren't respectful of others. They demand car drivers \"share the road\", but then ride in huge packs, lane split, don't signal turns, run stop signs and red lights, weave in and out of traffic, boot up busy sidewalks at 15-20mph, refuse to use provided bike lanes, etc. There's like a gross sense of entitlement in the cycling community. Dude, you're still a vehicle. There's rules that apply to you, just like there are for cars and motorcycles. Big problem is difficulty/lack of enforcement. Cops have to catch them in the act. Even then they're slippery devils since they're usually more mobile than a cruiser or beat cop on foot. This is why I support plating bikes to make them easily identifiable.",
">\n\n\nThere's like a gross sense of entitlement in the cycling community. Dude, you're still a vehicle. There's rules that apply to you, just like there are for cars and motorcycles.\n\nThat is the problem right there. They want to be treated equal to car owners, yet they do not abide by traffic rules, hence all the accidents.",
">\n\nAs a driver, I concur.",
">\n\nI hate bikers on trails. They're supposed to stop and let hikers by but they never do. They go by so freakin' fast too. It's like come on now!",
">\n\nAs a mostly former cyclist, I often hated cyclists too. Mostly, because so many cyclist are just competitive asshats that suck the pleasure out of their own bike ride by making everything about speed. Like, heaven forbid they have to slow and yield to anyone.\nOnce, I was riding my bicycle with my young daughter on a bike path in the city. A couple cyclist came up and got all pissy at us, saying we need to be out of the cycle lane because we were going too slow and my 8 year old kid wasn't keeping to a narrow lane. It was so hostile - my kid started crying.\nBut that is just so typical, all the time. I've gotten yelled out a few times when I made a full, foot down stop at a redlight because the cyclist behind me was expecting me to either run the redlight or at least go into the crosswalk and dance around (like they do) until it went green. I remember nearly getting run over by cyclists all the time, and yelled at if I was going too slow.\nThat being said, we need to do 100,000 x more in the US towards making bike paths, protected bike lanes, etc., because cyling is a truly great way to get around and I miss it. I just don't miss the self-centered asshats that dominate the cycling community.",
">\n\nThis!",
">\n\nI’ve nothing against cyclists as a group. I prefer to hate all people who do stupid things whether they’re in cars, on bikes or walking. Went to pick my daughter up tonight and counted six cyclists in the dark wearing all black with no lights at all plus one with a light so weak I didn’t see it until I was nearly past him. Tonight it was dumb cyclists, but tomorrow it might be idiots in cars. Hate the idiots not the method of transportation.",
">\n\nTrue !",
">\n\nOMG YES !! I completely agree. Every time i tried to explain this to a friend, they would always look at me like I am crazy for thinking such a thing. But as I walk for 45 minutes every days, it became a reality you can't ignore... I can't count how many times I nearly got hit by a cyclist, it happens every other week. I am starting to think that cyclists should have to go through a \"course\" to learn the basics of using the streets x)\n(Sorry for mistakes, not native here 'x) )",
">\n\nThis is my story lol..",
">\n\nYes, and it also is my personal experience, which is why I posted this..?",
">\n\nYes I totally agree. Just saying \"that's my life\" :) happening in Brussels tho",
">\n\nMy bad x) welp France here, it amazes me in a really bad way how this seems to be such a common phenomenon literaly EVERYWHERE",
">\n\nJ'ai roulé en vélo à Paris et laisse tomber l'enfer que c'était. J'avais l'impression d'avancer avec des oies qui insultaient tout le monde. BAa bAAA BAaaAa !!! \nLe problème c'est que plus les gens sont stressés (même les piétons... Genre dans le metro) plus ils se haïssent et ce matin j'avais la haine sur les vélos.. en vrai j'ai la haine sur tous les citadins haha",
">\n\nas a cyclist I hate everyone",
">\n\nSame, I see posts like this where people tell us to ride on the sidewalk when it’s illegal. \nThey assume we don’t walk anywhere, drive, etc like we are essentially subhuman for doing exercise.\nThey tell us to ride closer to the right side of the road so we get hit by a car door. \nThey’re mad that we give a verbal signal that we’re coming up on the left even though that’s the law. \nnow that I’m in Colorado I’m getting yelled at for the Idaho stop, which is completely legal. We yield to stop signs and temporarily stop at red light only till it’s clear. It’s all to REDUCE CAR TRAFFIC.\nSo far I’ve had family members die from hit and runs and drunk drivers, but somehow cyclists are the most dangerous thing on the road today.\nWhat is this really about?",
">\n\nI loathe cyclists. Selfish, entitled lycra lunatics.",
">\n\nBe honest, do you realize that it's possible to ride a bicycle and not be selfish, or entitled, or a lunatic, or not wear lycra?",
">\n\nThis thread is such a circlejerk, it's ridiculous.",
">\n\nThat's what I'm here for",
">\n\nIt's because cycling isn't regulated like motor vehicles are but they still get on the roads unlike pedestrians. So they don't have knowledge on the rules of the road that drivers have.\nThere's also some sort of hypocrisy they have where they believe drivers should give way to them because bikes are more vulnerable than cars while expecting pedestrians to give way to them because they're moving faster.",
">\n\n\nSo they don't have knowledge on the rules of the road\n\nPlenty do. Many cyclists also are automobilists. They just feel like they're exempted from respecting trafic rules because it's tiring to stop and go on a bike and they're slower an lighter than cars.",
">\n\nSure you got hit by a truck, but at least you managed to save yourself a little time and avoid waiting for a few seconds. Is what I'd say if they didn't then end up in the hospital",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists, as it should be.",
">\n\nCyclists shouldn’t be on sidewalks",
">\n\nI also cringe a lot when I see the international Reddit community constantly praise us Dutch people for our biking culture. People have no idea how many traffic accidents we get that could have been avoided if we didn’t have cyclists EVERYWHERE who are barely aware of the traffic rules that also apply to them.\nPeople have no idea about how cyclists are almost always right according to our traffic laws, which makes them much more reckless. They cause millions of dollars of damage to cars (and pedestrians) each year, and barely ever face consequences for their irresponsible and reckless behavior in traffic.\nPeople don’t see how cyclists often block traffic because they like to cycle next to each other in pairs, and if you honk they get angry and sometimes even aggressive and try to break your side mirror if they feel like it.\nMany intersections have bicycle lanes that you need to check when making a turn when driving, even though the intersection is already super busy with lots of cars. And guess what, cyclists still ride around fast and recklessly and making sure you don’t hit another car, cyclist AND pedestrian is all the job of one single driver.\nSo all in all, people from countries where driving is a relatively easy and chill thing to do, praise cycling culture in other countries. Try to drive here in busy traffic with thousands of cars AND (RECKLESS) CYCLISTS on the road and then tell me what it’s like.",
">\n\nIt would be much easier to sympathize with cars drivers if they did not need like 60% of the entire transit space leaving cyclists and pedestrians very little.\n\neven though the intersection is already super busy with lots of cars\n\nOfc, because cars are so large and need so much space.",
">\n\nI get that, but why is that my fault? I don’t do the city planning. Besides, cars are much larger than bicycles, so doesn’t it make sense there’s more space needed for cars than for bicycles?\nBut even then, if you don’t want to have any sympathy for motorists, because city planners give them more space than others, that’s just weird. It’s not the motorist’s fault.",
">\n\n\ndoesn’t it make sense there’s more space needed for cars than for bicycles?\n\nWhy a valuable and scarce resource such as the public space in cities should be used predominantly to benefit car users while barring everyone else? \nI just find it much harder to sympathize with the privileged group.",
">\n\nBecause people need to be able to go from A to B?",
">\n\nSo do pedestrians/public transport users/cyclists. But they don't require so much space per person.",
">\n\nWell in The Netherlands public transportation takes up an enormous amount of space and cyclists have their own dedicated lanes almost everywhere. Also motorists have to give public transportation space as we usually have to stop for trams and buses to pass, according to traffic rules. Guess who doesn’t often follow those rules: cyclists.\nHowever, public transportation itself is super busy and unbelievably expensive in The Netherlands. It costs more than 20 Euros to travel ~70 kilometers. That’s why a lot of people still prefer to have a car, and cars simply need infrastructure.\nSo I don’t really get your point. Cars, bicycles and public transportation all get a fair portion of the space that’s available.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist, i hate pedestrians. Here in Germany, there is bike lanes, one part for bikes and one for pedestrians on traffic lights... etc. But the pedestrians just ignore them, form \"walls\" of people blocking the bike lane, dont look while crossing the bike lane. Even cars repect us more than you.",
">\n\nThis I understand. Experienced the same in Denmark",
">\n\nClaaaaaarksoooooonnnnn",
">\n\nIdk about other places but here cyclists are constantly breaking the law and never getting ticketed for it. It makes no sense to me. I don’t think it’d make a huge difference but I do think some cyclists would think twice about disregarding the rules if those rules were actually enforced.",
">\n\nI get the sentiment. My feeling is the root cause is they don’t have their own infrastructure. Cars and peds do. So cyclists are always forced into a non ideal path. \nI’m aware they have rights to the road but cars and bikes really struggle to share an infrastructure clearly made for cars. \nSo if we invest in cycling infrastructure everyone would probably be happier.",
">\n\ndoubt it. In my city there is an asphalt bike path for miles that is like 8 feet wide. Smooth. No stop signs. Do they use it? nope they get their collective ass out on the street and I honestly don't have a clue why.\nIt defies logic. Safter, smooth, not cars/trunks, etc. Here they are out on the street just fiddle farting down a 45 mph road like they own it with a bike path 15 feet away with no one on it. The last guy I asked said \"It is my road as well you know\" that I ran up on while I was at a crossing while riding on the path myself. I just gave up trying to understand. Someone dies on that road every couple of months from bike or pedestrian strike with a vehicle. It was the whole reason they built the path....",
">\n\nWell in my experience there are 2 thing going on there.\na) Often bikers will avoid the path because peds often share or walk across those paths and their speed is closer to that of a car than a ped or \nb) If they are commuting...the path likely isn't going exactly where they need to.\nAs to your specific scenario I don't doubt there are bikers that are hard headed and stubborn. I know a few of those. But generally I do bikers using the infrastructure where we have built it.",
">\n\nThere's an accident here involving @ car running over a cyclist who crossed a red traffic light. And guess who take the blame?",
">\n\nLaughs in being dutch",
">\n\nIt is regrettable that a handful of asshole cyclists ruins everyone’s opinion of us. It really undermines the support needed to improve infrastructure for cycling. \nIf it is any help, when i ring my bell, I am doing so to avoid the alternatives of either yelling a warning or startling people. I normally exit the path and pass on the grass. I would say that most cyclist are the same. I don’t want you to get out of the way, I want you to know I am there. \nBut it only takes a couple assholes that think they own the path or the street. I have a cousin like this and it is difficult to convince him his is wrong and is putting himself and others in danger.",
">\n\nI think the a-holes are people that are only on a bike because it's the easiest thing for them, living where they do. You and those like you are on the bike because you love cycling.",
">\n\nI live in Portland, OR, and the cyclists here are so fucking rude and entitled.",
">\n\nI live in not-Portland OR and visited once. I biked down the road. Could not believe how nice everyone was to me. Probably because they could tell I’m an outsider.",
">\n\nI meant how they treat everyone else who isn't on a bike, tbh.",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists and it's for a simple reason. They think they can do whatever the hell they want. They switch between a pedestrian, a cyclist and a vehicle deciding on the fly whatever rules they feel like following with no accountability. \nOne minute they are skipping traffic, then they are deciding to cross at a crosswalk instead of following traffic. And the sidewalks are bike lanes if that's more convenient.",
">\n\nI just get annoyed because they will ride double wide on a tight street, forcing you to go 60mph in a 45, on the opposite side of traffic, risking a head on collision. And yea, you have to do that, because otherwise cars behind you will start driving aggressive as well as the fact that your expecting all the cars to go at a bikes speed on the road.",
">\n\nThat's because every country except for the Netherlands and Denmark have shit bicycle infrastructure.",
">\n\nI civilised countries we have cycling paths and cycling on the street is also possible as drivers aren't insane. So this seems rather like a problem of poor urban planning than cyclists in general.",
">\n\nWhere I live the cyclists just refuse to take the bikelane and either block the traffic because the rather use the street or they decide to use the pedestrian side of the sidewalk. The frickin bikelane is as big as the pedestrian one. There is no excuse not to use it and they still won't! One of them almost hit me if I hadn't dodge it. If the cyclist only drove a few inches to the left there would have been a bikelane and it wouldn't happened. Of course the person didn't apologize and just cursed at me.",
">\n\nBike gutters are awful and less safe than taking the lane. Assholes park in the bike lanes ALL THE TIME. Plus no one ever looks behind them when getting out pf their car so getting smacked by a door is a real danger. Drivers are entitled but it’s not their fault it’s the way we’ve built society to allow and expect them to be.\nETA: next time you’re driving around take a count how many people you see pulled over or parked in a bike gutter.",
">\n\nCompletely agree - I was ran over almost 3 times in Berlin. \nAnd every single time I checked before crossing - but they just suddenly spawned right in the way",
">\n\nDid you cross at a designated crosswalk? As a cyclist the amount of times people just randomly meander across an active street instead of going to the zebra/lollipop crossing, and then get angry at me when I have to swerve out the way/ brake is comical.",
">\n\nMan, y'all are sad people. \n\"Get off the road!\" Okay, now we are on the sidewalk. \n\"Get off the sidewalk!\" Back in the road again. \n\"They need to ring their bells so we know they're coming! Btw I hate it when they ring their bells so I know they're coming.\"",
">\n\nI hate cyclists like that. I don’t have a car so my bike is my main source of transportation and I don’t ride like that. So far, from what I’ve noticed in my area, I’m the only one that follows the damn rules in my city xD",
">\n\nNo matter where you are and who you are… driver or walker, scooter or flyer… we ALL hate cyclists.",
">\n\nI feel ya. The only thing I hate more than cyclists is electric scooters.",
">\n\nCompletely agree! A cycling license (similar to driving) should be required. Far too many cyclist who doesn’t know (and those who don’t just give a F) about traffic rules.",
">\n\nI completely agree! Cyclists have a lot of rights on the roads, and are very vocal about them, but think they can do whatever the fuck they want at roundabouts and pedestrian crossings.",
">\n\nIt just fascinates me how anyone can walk or drive through a city and genuinely think that bicycles are the problem. Look around you at every turn there are cars jamming the roads. Parked blocking things. Blocking pavements. Driving aggressively. Speeding. Failing to stop. Polluting the air. If they hit you, you are seriously injured or dead. This happens in the thousands. The city absolutely revolves around them.",
">\n\nYou are 100% right. Except I didn't say bicycles are the problem. I said i hate them. I said fuck cars too. I also said bicycles are one of the best alternative for trafic jam in cities.\nCities in Europe weren't made for cars nor bikes. So the problem is the fucking lazy greedy people who decide how to spend our tax money. The problem is people thinking they are all alone on the street. The problem is how stressed everybody is and how it become dangerous.\nNot because I hate how cyclists take revenge from drivers bullies to pedestrians makes me hate a transportation model itself.",
">\n\nIt just seems odd that people can really harp on about cyclists when they are such a trivial issue. Posts like this can get hundreds of replies. People tend to make excuses about cars.",
">\n\nYou just insulted a whole country.",
">\n\nThe Netherlands? It's ok",
">\n\nOk",
">\n\nI judge the actions of the individual not the mode of transport. I find it produces more accurate results.",
">\n\nApparently \"individuals alone are responsible for their own actions\" is the real unpopular opinion here.",
">\n\nIndeed 😀",
">\n\nAs a car driver I also hate cyclists. Saw one on a 45mph the other day despite there being a sidewalk AND a bikelane",
">\n\n45 mph isn't a speed for bike lane or sidewalk. Street is",
">\n\nas a cyclist, I hate pedestrians.\nMy city put in these nice protected bicycle lanes so bikes don't have to ride inches from cars, and boy don't those pedestrians just LOVE using the bike lane as a queuing up spot for the crosswalks. it's just so nice and convenient to get 5 more feet closer to your goal, isn't it? Those bicycles can stop and wait...and feel free to swear at them like THEY are the ones in the wrong.\nBicycles and pedestrians are natural enemies, that's never going to change. There can be only one.",
">\n\nLET'S END THIS NOW !!!!!",
">\n\nanyplace but Holy Ground.",
">\n\ndon't blame all bicyclists for the shitty ones.\nthat would be like saying every person who drives a car is an asshole. or every person who walks on the sidewalk is an asshole.\nsome people are good at getting around. other people are jerks. don't blame everyone for the actions of a small subset of people.",
">\n\nI mean, isn’t that the sentiment over that the popular sub r/fuckcars? The generalization is already being perpetuated from cyclists and “urbanists” in their war against cars.",
">\n\nNot really. That sub mostly hates the focus on cars when designing infrastructure, as well as the forced dependency on cars in our modern world. Not individual drivers.",
">\n\nSure about that? It’s mostly just a bitch-fest about driver errors to further their political agenda.",
">\n\nYea, I'm pretty sure.",
">\n\nReally weird way to get there if that’s the case. Alienating a large portion of the population (car drivers, car riders, people that depend on vehicles for the delivery of goods and services) is not how you get them on your side.",
">\n\nI don't think that's their goal in the first place. It's just a reddit sub.",
">\n\nEspecially when they have a stupid fucking bell and say \"on the left\" then proceed to be on the right side of the trail running into you",
">\n\nHahahha \"is he coming on the left or should i go on the lef...\" BANG!!",
">\n\nGF lives in a college town. It’s as if there’s some kinda fuckin’ death wish among the student cycling population",
">\n\nAs a [insert anyone, including cyclist], I hate cyclists.",
">\n\nPeople don't wanna hear it when it comes from automobilists because \"gngn cars are more dangerous and drivers are entitled\" but reality is cyclists are just the worst. Whether I'm on foot, driving a car, or riding a bicycle myself, cyclists are always always the ones being absolute public hazards. Heck, when I'm on my bike and stop at the stop sign on a cycle lane to let the cars go, they look at me as if I'm jesus or something. They even try to let me pass first because of how used they are to cyclists who just can't be bothered to respect the damn stop sign.",
">\n\nThe problem isn't the cyclists here, it's the lacking infrastructure.",
">\n\nWe shouldn't have to build infrastructure so people can partake in recreation. I find that comment extremely arrogant. Why on earth do cyclists deserve to have their recreation glorified and catered to??",
">\n\nRecreation? Ah yes, cycling is only for recreation.",
">\n\nWell, where I live that I'd the ONLY purpose. I'm 17 miles from any city municipality. Nobody is biking here to go to the grocery store or work.",
">\n\nNot everything is about you personally.",
">\n\nTo me, it is, and should be. My concern is around how cyclists inconvenience me while I'm trying to be a productive member of society. I feel like that's a fair critique.",
">\n\nYou are mad that cyclists inconvenience you yet you reject dedicated infrastructure as a solution. Do you think cyclists should be banned off the road completely?",
">\n\nThe real issue here is lacking cycling infrastructure.",
">\n\nDefinitely a major issue.\nBut part of the issue is definitely cyclists who prioritize their own speed over the safety and welfare of everyone around them. It's like they are all BMW drivers, deep down, and just don't want to yield to or slow down for anyone.",
">\n\nI'm sure there are, assholes exist in all vehicle types.",
">\n\nCyclists know thar neither the pavement nor the road are theirs because motorists and pedestrians like you are both screaming at them all the time. And I swear you'd be angrier if they didn't give a polite warning that they're coming toward you. \nCyclists who breeze through crossings instead of stopping are a minority, much like cyclists are a minority in general, and you can't judge an entire group that aren't adequately represented",
">\n\nFuck traveling in general",
">\n\nYa. Where are our transporters! \nSorry had to go full nerd.",
">\n\nI see posts like this constantly. It blows my mind people can just choose one thing that is so insignificant to scapegoat. \nThey assume people on bikes don’t also walk, drive, etc like we are essentially subhuman for doing exercise / running errands in this way because they are inconvenienced for a few seconds. You realize we are human like you , right?\nPeople tell us to ride bicycles on the sidewalk when it’s illegal while others say not too. It’s usually against the law.\nThey tell us to ride closer to the right side of the road , so we get hit by a car door and yelled at again. \nThey’re mad that we give a verbal signal that we’re coming up on the left even though that’s the law. \nNow that I’m in Colorado I’m getting yelled at for the Idaho stop, which is completely legal. We yield to stop signs and temporarily stop at red lights only if it’s clear. It’s all to REDUCE CAR TRAFFIC. \nKeep in mind we are riding bicycles which in its own right REDUCES CAR TRAFFIC. \n80% of car trips are within 3 miles from your house. Everyone that rides a bike keeps you from being stuck behind them in traffic for longer then the 20 seconds you’re currently inconvenienced. It’s also mean parking closer to the front door of a shop. \nSo far I’ve had family members die from hit and runs and drunk drivers, but somehow cyclists are the most dangerous thing on the road today?! It’s not adding up.\nWhat is this really about?",
">\n\nI'm sorry for your losses. I never said bikers are the most dangerous things on the road. Saying this would be stupid. The problem in my city is the lack of respect from cyclists to pedestrians in a general way. I'm not even talking about drivers against EVERYTHING ON THE STREET.",
">\n\nI go out of my way to be respectful to everybody, and I’ve had nothing but kindness and respect from other cyclists .\nYou wanna blame everybody on a bicycle for all your problems when it’s really just about a few people who disrespected you. \nCyclists are drivers, walkers, etc. do they just jump on a bicycle and instantly become disrespectful?\nStill doesn’t make any logical sense.",
">\n\nDude you just don't get it.. i understand biking is your life.. but come on.\nI use to bike 40km per day to work. \nI don't have problems with people jumping on bikes. I simply hate the ones that are disrespectful.\nIs it too hard to understand? Just me venting coz I feel like a lot of bikers think they are on top of the citizen pyramid? \nI'm not venting about the system here, nor about cars.. just about some (yes some) bikers.\nAnd please there is no need to beg for upvotes on fuckcars how old are you?",
">\n\nI bet your fat.",
">\n\nOf course I fart !",
">\n\nTo you yours and to mine mine; I hate car users and their ilk who are filled with wonton waste and hate for all else who dare travel near them. I stop at all lights, halt for all signs, use a mirror, lights, and hand signals, pull over for cars coming my way so long as there is any room, and use what little biking infrastructure is available to me.\nMy taxes are waste and paid in folly for they assuredly go in portion to your reckless use of a powerful machine and not to my own reckless use of a small self-propelled stick on two wheels to separate lanes and keep them maintained. No, no, I must settle for the gutter and cry glee for that and be ashamed to move to the sidewalk when it suddenly ends and continues a block later down the road. \nFuck your car, your roads, and your selfish desire to pave the world and create cities with 60% of their coverage dedicated to driving a car, parking a car, and separating the world into places for cars and otherwise. You who drive faster and faster, in bigger and bigger cars. I loath you as you loath mine.",
">\n\nI wouldn’t hate cyclists if they didn’t act like road laws don’t apply to em in the city where I live. I’ve seen cyclists not even stop at red lights even with an almost full intersection, and ride the wrong way down one ways.\nEdit: I do wish the city where I live had more bike lanes but yeah.",
">\n\nIf you're going to hate someone, maybe hate the people actually doing those things.\nIf I see someone on a bike rush through a short break on a red light in an otherwise busy intersection, I shake my head and think they are an idiot. I think this while waiting for the light to turn green on my bike.\nSimilarly, when a car illegally stops in a bike lane (which happens ALL THE TIME by the way), I don't turn around and blame the cars moving along legally in the adjacent lane.",
">\n\nPedestrian are the worst.\nWhen i started using bicicle I was very polite: brake, ring, ask for permission. And what the large amount of people do? Ignore u, watch u in the eyes and take a step in the fucking middle of the trail (many many times! for real!), shout at you just because u exist. So.... At some point is fuck you all, I'm coming go out of the way. That's it",
">\n\n\nI will never drive nor park on a bike lane, always look into the mirror to be careful of one of you monkeys. So why can't you be careful when us peasants are walking?\n\nThis is dumb. Obviously there are plenty of cyclists who are careful and courteous about your safety. That's part of what a bell or \"watch out!\" (generally \"On your left\") is doing for you. And just because you are courteous to them doesn't mean everyone is. Is every driver a douchebag just because some of them crowd cyclists when and where the cyclist has the right to the road? No.",
">\n\nThe difference here is that generally car drivers are going to be held accountable for bad driving. This is in the form of dash cams, ANPR and red light cameras which catch drivers doing bad things and they can receive a fine or points on their licence. Cyclists currently can't be held accountable if they jump red lights or hit a car or pedestrian as there isn't anything that helps identify them. This is a big issue in cities. I live and work in London and see many cyclists jumping red lights and weaving around pedestrians crossing. Cars can't do this as most traffic lights have red light cameras that would catch this.\nDrivers as a collective (including me) are in no way perfect or even held to account 100% of the time, but I believe we need a system for cyclists to be held accountable too",
">\n\nYour way of thinking, while perfectly rational and natural, is outdated. Traffic law enforcement, like any other law enforcement, is less about the enforcement, and more about the prevention. Where I live, speed and red light cameras are clearly marked ahead so that the people who'd normally break the law follow it instead, making punishment unnecessary. \nSame could be done with cyclists. Sure, you could make every cyclist install a license plate, require a \"cycling license\", or install expensive cameras with facial identification software, but how about just make it so cyclists aren't incentivised to break the law in the first place? \nMake more useful cycling infrastructure, and more cyclists will use it. Make that infrastructure intersect with foot and motor traffic more safely and less often, and less collisions will happen.",
">\n\nI completely understand your point. However, a lot of money has gone into my local area for cycling infrastructure that most cyclists are using, but many are still choosing to break the rules as the rules are inconvenient. The infrastructure is not enough, there needs to be an incentive NOT to break the rules.\nIf you take a look at Chiswick High Road in London, England. They have created segregated cycle lanes from the traffic. These cycle lanes have their own lights and crossings to keep them safe from cars. However many cyclists just ignore the lights and just keep going into pedestrians. There is no punishment for them doing this as they can't be tracked. Personally I think every cyclist should have to register their bike (make it free to help encourage this) and then a new form of ANPR used to also catch cyclists in the act",
">\n\nPersonally I'd have no problem registering my bike for free, especially if I could use that same registration if it gets stolen, but registering something as mechanically simple and cheap as a bicycle is, in my opinion difficult if not impossible to do without making the bike mechanically complex and expensive, at which point most people would just switch to scooters.\nI don't live in London, but from what I've heard, by far the biggest threat in the city is still motorized traffic, namely cars and lorries, and so until that problem is no longer a problem, I wouldn't really do anything special about bikes. Maybe put some undercover bike cops near the most dangerous bike path/lane intersections to catch a few offenders and make an example out of them, but that's about it.",
">\n\nMost cars I’ve driven came equipped with brakes and a steering wheel. I don’t see the problem",
">\n\nA common take and a stupid one.\nThere are good and bad drivers, pedestrians, and cyclists. Hating any of them as a group because some of them do bad things is just dumb.",
">\n\nIf you followed the laws and stayed out of the bike lane as a pedestrian there would be no problem.",
">\n\nIf bicyclists followed the laws and stopped ignoring street signs/traffic lights there would be no problem.",
">\n\nDon’t see how this address the problem with pedestrians in bike lanes.",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Drivers pedestrians other cyclists. They're a scourge.",
">\n\nEvery word of this is pure wisdom.",
">\n\nAs a car driver, I too hate cyclists.\nI don't care who has 'right of way'. I'm in a car, you're not. If we collide, regardless of fault, you're the one that dies.\nDo you really want to die on the hill that says \"i can bike on the rode b/c it's legal\"?\nI might be in jail, but you're still dead.\nBikes don't belong on public roads. Unless there's a bike lane - aka, a pathway designed specifically for bikers.\nIt's FAR SAFER to bike on the sidewalk.",
">\n\nBe careful you’ll anger r/fuckcars",
">\n\nI recently got a bike in Japan and there isn't any room on the street to ride my bike. Most people are fine when I'm on the sidewalk, however, the worst ones are groups of 2 or more who try and take up as much space as possible allowing nobody to pass. Same with the people who constantly switch between the left and right side of the sidewalk. It's really annoying to see how little spacial awareness they have.",
">\n\nCyclists on the road don’t have to pass the same test as vehicles on the road, which is why they are so bad. If there was a test in order to cycle on the road then i think it would be alot better",
">\n\nWhy do you hate all cyclists when only some of them are rude/dangerous?",
">\n\nCope hehe",
">\n\nIt's the powered vehicles that kill most pedestrians.\nBut, sure, cyclists blahblah...",
">\n\nAs an occasional cyclist, I don't like you either.",
">\n\nI biked everywhere.....when I was a child. I'm an adult now and have an automobile. They are pretty neat.",
">\n\nWhen I used to have to walk to work I’d walk on the sidewalk and listen to music and one time this guy zipped right by me yelling almost knocking me over and flipped me off?? They act like they don’t have breaks lmao",
">\n\nholy smokes! glad you're ok",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Even cyclists.",
">\n\nAnd here i thought why the f pediatrician hate cyclists",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Even other cyclists.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist this thread is hilarious",
">\n\nAnyone got recommendations for how to be a nice, considerate cyclist besides being careful and non-entitled? I plan on starting when it gets warm outside.",
">\n\nNot unpopular",
">\n\nWhen I drive to work, I obey most of the rules. I just can't drive on some roads. That would either kill me at some point or I'd slow down a whole 60 km/h lane that's packed with traffic. When riding on the sidewalk, I always stop or get off my bike if it gets too crowded or the sidewalk narrows. But when no one is around I just keep driving normally, just slower than usual. I try to stay alert at all times and let everyone pass because I know I'm wrong here.\nAt one point there is a one-way street I'm not allowed to drive on, but as my alternatives are the same 60km/h road (but now also with rails) or a crowded sidewalk, I prefer the one-way street with maybe 4 cars per hour that I can easily avoid. After that there is finally a bike path until I get to work. There would be a legal route, but it would take twice, if not triple, the time.\nI also hate reckless cyclists. They have already endangered me and are often unfriendly assholes. I just don't have a death wish and don't want to drive a route in an hour if 20 minutes are possible in a safe way (If the brain gets used).",
">\n\nCyclists don’t care because unless they get injured there are no real consequences for their actions.\nI think that any vehicle, with or without any type of motor, should require a license to operate on a public roadway. Road legal bikes need to be held to quality standards, like cars, and should also be registered. If you wish to ride one on a public roadway it should have a number plate on it. You should have to pass a rider’s ed course proving that you know the rules of the road. There should be a test proving that you can control the vehicle and operate it safely, same as a car or motorcycle.",
">\n\nYeah I’ve nearly been run over from behind by cyclists on sidewalks too many times",
">\n\nIdk maybe my town is weird like everwhere on the internet and even in statistics you hear stuff like that but then I haven't really seen any cyclists run red lights ever and as someone who maybe not often but sometimes cycles, the last thing I'd do as a cyclist is run a red light like I don't wanna die?",
">\n\nOnly people that like cyclist.. are probably just other cyclists.",
">\n\nI don’t mind normal, law-abiding cyclists at all. I just despise the ones that think they can choose whether to act like a car or pedestrian whenever they feel like it. Or worse, they don’t know the actual laws but think they are special just because they are riding a bike.",
">\n\nSometimes I feel like I am the only one watching out for pedestrians. For example when there's a crosswalk coming up that goes over the bike path and there's someone waiting, I always yield and the person waiting is often surprised since most people on bicycles just carry on. So not all cyclists are like that.",
">\n\nAs a pedestrian, cyclist and driver, I hate taxis.",
">\n\nI once almost got hit by a cyclist who failed to stop at a stop sign",
">\n\nCyclist have it both ways which isn’t fair. They can drive on the road AND the sidewalk and use pedestrian crossings when they feel like it. It’s like they have no road rules once on a bike. \nOn the sidewalk I have to get outta the way? No bikeperson. You shouldn’t even be on the sidewalk in the first place! Maybe if you’re under 10 but otherwise drive your vehicle on the road like all other adults!",
">\n\nI knew a cyclist who would always talk shit about cars. He told me he’s been hit TEN TIMES. UMMM?? If you’ve been hit ten times then it’s not the cars fault…",
">\n\nYou must be from New York lol fuck the cyclists up there",
">\n\nAmen brother",
">\n\nLol. Everyone talks like this. No one likes cyclists. \nExcept me. I legit find it hilarious when they fuck with cars and even pedestrians. I saw a cyclist slap a pedestrian staring at their phone in the middle of the road 2 days ago. Cyclist warned him multiple times so cyclist open palmed him as he passed. Fucking hilarious.",
">\n\nYeah hitting people out of anger rather than doing the right thing is so funny"
] |
>
How about the fact you ring your bell or yell “Excuse me coming through” as a cyclist and people are on their phone or slide in that AirPod more securely into their ear?
Pedestrians suck.
|
[
"I road cycled for years, I always followed the street rules. Always. Red light means red light. \nI have so many cycling friends who get into accidents and other conflicts with drivers, and yet they think it’s stupid to stop at a red light. They just don’t connect these two things",
">\n\nMost bikers I encounter are complete idiots. Like I'd be driving normally and out of nowhere comes a biker on a crosswalk in full speed. Now, I appreciate bikers who actually stop and make eye contact with me as I'm driving towards the crosswalk but man, it's either that or the biker almost dies because I have no time to brake.\nAnd what's up with all the bikers going like 5 kmh IN THE MIDDLE of a road when there's a dedicated sidewalk for bikers right next to them? Drives me insane.",
">\n\nIt seems like most bikers because of observation bias.\nIf you follow the rules as you should, you’re unmemorable.\nAs for the sidewalks - its actually less safe on the sidewalk.",
">\n\nInteresting. Dangerous situations are more valuable to remember, and I remember tons of irresponsible bikers. It is in fact observation bias. But I'm always happy to see those who pay close attention to traffic, and I do remeber some of them aswell.",
">\n\nWell the same goes for driving. How many cars do you remember when they haven’t done anything? But you tend to remember the ones who do something dumb",
">\n\nYeah it can be applied to anything really.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist in one of the most bike-dense cities in the world, I hate cyclists too. If I could avoid getting myself hurt, I’d be ramming at least ten of them a day just to teach a lesson about ignoring rules and common sense.",
">\n\nAmsterdam? Copenhagen?",
">\n\nCopenhagen. It’s a wonderful bike city but the people are incredibly self-centered.",
">\n\nI had high expectations from cyclists when I first visited the city, after all it is heralded as a cycling paradise and, well, let’s say it looked a lot more like the rest of the world and mainly because of the personal behavior of cyclists.\nMy local friend justified it, stating that it’s because danish are more temperamental than all other Scandinavians: an explanation that I really didn’t know what to do with…",
">\n\nIf “temperamental” means “a bunch of egotistical [insert unflattering body part]”, he’s right.",
">\n\nYou make it sound like a war zone. I live in Copenhagen and most of the time biking around the city is very pleasant. Except for the food delivery scooters, they can 🤬 off.",
">\n\nI guess it depends on how often and where you’re going. If you have places to be each and every day and want to get there effectively, people ignoring general rules and courtesies of the road are a pain. If you’re one of the types listening to podcasts with a latte in one hand and a phone in the other just trudging along, it’s probably fine.",
">\n\nSame! I love walking. Where I live on popular trails, there are bike lanes, but the cyclists will just ride wherever they. They don’t care and won’t let you know they’re coming. They’ll get pissy if you don’t just automatically know they’re coming up from behind you. If you do much as step foot in the bike lane, they get mad, but have no problems riding side by side outside the bike lane.",
">\n\nSame here! So much for my pleasant walk on the beautiful Trail. They sneak up and when they're almost on top of me, a loud voice yells \"On your left!\" They startle the shit out of me and cause me to jump sky high! 😡",
">\n\nIt’s literally the law to say that. This thread is all about hating them no matter if they follow the law or not.",
">\n\nIs it possible to do that without sneaking up on them and startling the shit out of them by yelling real loud? And then cutting is close to them as you possibly can without hitting them?",
">\n\nHello. \nMy useless comment to this post is here :D\nSo, i work in the accidents department of a big insurance company. My country is very strickt about the road rules, meaning:\nOur company estimates (is this the right word?) that around 82% of accidents involving cyclists, are to blame on the cyclist. Since there are expecific places on the road for you to ride your bike, even if it's not a bike lane.\nI remember a case where 3 dudes were just cycling, outside of town and they were literally on the middle of the road. the place where they were is full of curves and has very little visibility, so they were riding side by side, middle of the road, comes a car, hits not one, but the 3 of them because they scared the person and she just swerved the car.\nThey sued her and us (insurance) 2 times. Lost both and had to pay for all damage done on the car by their own bodys",
">\n\nThis sounds like something that happened near by my home town, are you in Ontario?",
">\n\nno XD portugal",
">\n\nGod its so much worse that it's happened in multiple places.\nIn ours I think the driver killed one of the cyclists, then sued the family for emotional damage",
">\n\nMy biggest gripe about cyclists is that there is always some danger when you encounter them on the road, either as a pedestrian or motorist. Now, part of it isn’t their fault. At least here in the US, not much of the infrastructure is made for bicycles. But cyclists are constantly breaking the rules of the road (or sidewalk) to get where they’re going faster. Blowing red lights, leaving the bike lane to use the sidewalk, splitting lanes. I always clench a little when I approach one, wondering if this is the day I can’t get out of the way.",
">\n\nWe have that same problem, but then a million times worse, because I live in The Netherlands. You probably know about our proud cycling culture (the Amsterdam stereotype). And yes, cyclists here are just as bad as the ones you describe, but there’s a lot more of them here. And oh yeah, traffic laws are almost always in their favor.",
">\n\nI found driving in the towns of the Netherlands so hard. Not just because I was on the wrong side of the road 😉 but because I just wasn’t used to sooo many cyclists coming from all directions, always faster than me and passing on both sides. Even as I was signalling to leave a roundabout at one point about three cyclists rode past on the inside. I really struggled to keep up with them all, which of course means I drove slower and thus even more bikes passed me!",
">\n\nYes that is of course very difficult, however as a Dutchman I’m used to cyclists, so of course we struggle a lot less. But that doesn’t take away from the fact that cyclists do cause a lot of issues because of their careless behavior, and because as drivers we have to accommodate them. That one sided ‘deal’ that we have makes it very difficult to deal with them.\nAll in all I’m happy we have so many cyclists as it’s good for the environment. But the utopian mindset of cyclists being a gift to the world is just stupid. Especially when you consider that mostly Americans who drive on wide open roads with barely any cyclists around are the ones praising cyclists in my country all the time. Also, cyclists annoy the hell out of pedestrians as well, so it’s not just about motorists.",
">\n\nCyclists treat red lights like stop signs and stop signs like yield signs (at best). They’re not allowed on sidewalks but do it anyway. Fuckin hate cyclists.",
">\n\nEverything you said is completely legal in Denver and sidewalks are illegal , but drivers constantly scream at cyclists to ride there",
">\n\nCyclist can roll stop signs and run red lights in Denver? What the fuck?",
">\n\nI’d have no problem if cyclist had respect for other road users. where I live there are cycle lanes, but most cyclists are on the road or pavements, they ignore red lights etc. \nIf you want to cycle please make it’s safe for yourself and others around you.",
">\n\nExactly my thoughts",
">\n\nHonestly, selfish assholes exist everywhere but a selfish asshole on a bicycle does a lot less damage than a selfish asshole in a car. \nEDIT: OP's also downvoting everyone who disagrees with him, just fyi.",
">\n\nAs a pedestrian, I hate everyone who's not a pedestrian... And some pedestrians too.",
">\n\nThere's a reason so many cyclists die each year, they all seem to pick and choose which laws they want to follow. Its always safer to assume they'll do whatever they want and everyone else needs to adapt to them.",
">\n\nAs a driver downtown, I don't worry at all about pedestrians at intersections, I can turn my head and assume they will be maybe five feet closer to my car when I look back, (and I trust they won't sprint towards me when I look away, at their own peril), but bikes, they ride so fast, that in the short time I turn my head to check for oncoming traffic, a bike could materialize right beside / infront me, and I risk hitting them or them hitting the side of my car. And that's even in their designated bike lane, that I have to pass through to clear the intersection. And if I drive into a ped at three miles per hour, they will just hit my hood with their fist and call me a stupid motherfucker, or whatever makes them feel justice was served, but if I bump the bike, it will be a big crash, the bicyclist will be all curled up in a ball on the ground, I'll be the bad guy in the eyes of the law and anyone nearby, and I'll probably be late as fuck to wherever it is I'm trying to go to.",
">\n\nI skateboard so I guess I'm good",
">\n\nJust don’t inconvenience narcissistic car drivers by a few seconds.",
">\n\nI think everyone hates cyclists. Cyclists included.",
">\n\nAs a driver, I hate you both",
">\n\nPedestrians are literally the worst. Anyone who has to walk more than 20 feet a day and not to their car are complete losers, and should be jailed on site.",
">\n\nOK, I think that's a bit extreme. But hey, if you're running for public office I'll vote for you. \nI do have to wonder anytime I see someone that I know has the mental faculties to drive who is walking. Usually assume too many DUI's.",
">\n\nr/fuckcars ripping out their hair rn",
">\n\nNot unpopular.\n Everyone hates cyclists.",
">\n\nI casually cycle in the summer. If I'm on a trail, I'll slow down and ring my bell if I see pedestrians, or stop and dismount if there's a lot of people or they don't notice me. Especially on the narrow trails in this woodlot I sometimes go to. \nThe problem is a lot of cyclists, especially in North America, but perhaps other places, just aren't respectful of others. They demand car drivers \"share the road\", but then ride in huge packs, lane split, don't signal turns, run stop signs and red lights, weave in and out of traffic, boot up busy sidewalks at 15-20mph, refuse to use provided bike lanes, etc. There's like a gross sense of entitlement in the cycling community. Dude, you're still a vehicle. There's rules that apply to you, just like there are for cars and motorcycles. Big problem is difficulty/lack of enforcement. Cops have to catch them in the act. Even then they're slippery devils since they're usually more mobile than a cruiser or beat cop on foot. This is why I support plating bikes to make them easily identifiable.",
">\n\n\nThere's like a gross sense of entitlement in the cycling community. Dude, you're still a vehicle. There's rules that apply to you, just like there are for cars and motorcycles.\n\nThat is the problem right there. They want to be treated equal to car owners, yet they do not abide by traffic rules, hence all the accidents.",
">\n\nAs a driver, I concur.",
">\n\nI hate bikers on trails. They're supposed to stop and let hikers by but they never do. They go by so freakin' fast too. It's like come on now!",
">\n\nAs a mostly former cyclist, I often hated cyclists too. Mostly, because so many cyclist are just competitive asshats that suck the pleasure out of their own bike ride by making everything about speed. Like, heaven forbid they have to slow and yield to anyone.\nOnce, I was riding my bicycle with my young daughter on a bike path in the city. A couple cyclist came up and got all pissy at us, saying we need to be out of the cycle lane because we were going too slow and my 8 year old kid wasn't keeping to a narrow lane. It was so hostile - my kid started crying.\nBut that is just so typical, all the time. I've gotten yelled out a few times when I made a full, foot down stop at a redlight because the cyclist behind me was expecting me to either run the redlight or at least go into the crosswalk and dance around (like they do) until it went green. I remember nearly getting run over by cyclists all the time, and yelled at if I was going too slow.\nThat being said, we need to do 100,000 x more in the US towards making bike paths, protected bike lanes, etc., because cyling is a truly great way to get around and I miss it. I just don't miss the self-centered asshats that dominate the cycling community.",
">\n\nThis!",
">\n\nI’ve nothing against cyclists as a group. I prefer to hate all people who do stupid things whether they’re in cars, on bikes or walking. Went to pick my daughter up tonight and counted six cyclists in the dark wearing all black with no lights at all plus one with a light so weak I didn’t see it until I was nearly past him. Tonight it was dumb cyclists, but tomorrow it might be idiots in cars. Hate the idiots not the method of transportation.",
">\n\nTrue !",
">\n\nOMG YES !! I completely agree. Every time i tried to explain this to a friend, they would always look at me like I am crazy for thinking such a thing. But as I walk for 45 minutes every days, it became a reality you can't ignore... I can't count how many times I nearly got hit by a cyclist, it happens every other week. I am starting to think that cyclists should have to go through a \"course\" to learn the basics of using the streets x)\n(Sorry for mistakes, not native here 'x) )",
">\n\nThis is my story lol..",
">\n\nYes, and it also is my personal experience, which is why I posted this..?",
">\n\nYes I totally agree. Just saying \"that's my life\" :) happening in Brussels tho",
">\n\nMy bad x) welp France here, it amazes me in a really bad way how this seems to be such a common phenomenon literaly EVERYWHERE",
">\n\nJ'ai roulé en vélo à Paris et laisse tomber l'enfer que c'était. J'avais l'impression d'avancer avec des oies qui insultaient tout le monde. BAa bAAA BAaaAa !!! \nLe problème c'est que plus les gens sont stressés (même les piétons... Genre dans le metro) plus ils se haïssent et ce matin j'avais la haine sur les vélos.. en vrai j'ai la haine sur tous les citadins haha",
">\n\nas a cyclist I hate everyone",
">\n\nSame, I see posts like this where people tell us to ride on the sidewalk when it’s illegal. \nThey assume we don’t walk anywhere, drive, etc like we are essentially subhuman for doing exercise.\nThey tell us to ride closer to the right side of the road so we get hit by a car door. \nThey’re mad that we give a verbal signal that we’re coming up on the left even though that’s the law. \nnow that I’m in Colorado I’m getting yelled at for the Idaho stop, which is completely legal. We yield to stop signs and temporarily stop at red light only till it’s clear. It’s all to REDUCE CAR TRAFFIC.\nSo far I’ve had family members die from hit and runs and drunk drivers, but somehow cyclists are the most dangerous thing on the road today.\nWhat is this really about?",
">\n\nI loathe cyclists. Selfish, entitled lycra lunatics.",
">\n\nBe honest, do you realize that it's possible to ride a bicycle and not be selfish, or entitled, or a lunatic, or not wear lycra?",
">\n\nThis thread is such a circlejerk, it's ridiculous.",
">\n\nThat's what I'm here for",
">\n\nIt's because cycling isn't regulated like motor vehicles are but they still get on the roads unlike pedestrians. So they don't have knowledge on the rules of the road that drivers have.\nThere's also some sort of hypocrisy they have where they believe drivers should give way to them because bikes are more vulnerable than cars while expecting pedestrians to give way to them because they're moving faster.",
">\n\n\nSo they don't have knowledge on the rules of the road\n\nPlenty do. Many cyclists also are automobilists. They just feel like they're exempted from respecting trafic rules because it's tiring to stop and go on a bike and they're slower an lighter than cars.",
">\n\nSure you got hit by a truck, but at least you managed to save yourself a little time and avoid waiting for a few seconds. Is what I'd say if they didn't then end up in the hospital",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists, as it should be.",
">\n\nCyclists shouldn’t be on sidewalks",
">\n\nI also cringe a lot when I see the international Reddit community constantly praise us Dutch people for our biking culture. People have no idea how many traffic accidents we get that could have been avoided if we didn’t have cyclists EVERYWHERE who are barely aware of the traffic rules that also apply to them.\nPeople have no idea about how cyclists are almost always right according to our traffic laws, which makes them much more reckless. They cause millions of dollars of damage to cars (and pedestrians) each year, and barely ever face consequences for their irresponsible and reckless behavior in traffic.\nPeople don’t see how cyclists often block traffic because they like to cycle next to each other in pairs, and if you honk they get angry and sometimes even aggressive and try to break your side mirror if they feel like it.\nMany intersections have bicycle lanes that you need to check when making a turn when driving, even though the intersection is already super busy with lots of cars. And guess what, cyclists still ride around fast and recklessly and making sure you don’t hit another car, cyclist AND pedestrian is all the job of one single driver.\nSo all in all, people from countries where driving is a relatively easy and chill thing to do, praise cycling culture in other countries. Try to drive here in busy traffic with thousands of cars AND (RECKLESS) CYCLISTS on the road and then tell me what it’s like.",
">\n\nIt would be much easier to sympathize with cars drivers if they did not need like 60% of the entire transit space leaving cyclists and pedestrians very little.\n\neven though the intersection is already super busy with lots of cars\n\nOfc, because cars are so large and need so much space.",
">\n\nI get that, but why is that my fault? I don’t do the city planning. Besides, cars are much larger than bicycles, so doesn’t it make sense there’s more space needed for cars than for bicycles?\nBut even then, if you don’t want to have any sympathy for motorists, because city planners give them more space than others, that’s just weird. It’s not the motorist’s fault.",
">\n\n\ndoesn’t it make sense there’s more space needed for cars than for bicycles?\n\nWhy a valuable and scarce resource such as the public space in cities should be used predominantly to benefit car users while barring everyone else? \nI just find it much harder to sympathize with the privileged group.",
">\n\nBecause people need to be able to go from A to B?",
">\n\nSo do pedestrians/public transport users/cyclists. But they don't require so much space per person.",
">\n\nWell in The Netherlands public transportation takes up an enormous amount of space and cyclists have their own dedicated lanes almost everywhere. Also motorists have to give public transportation space as we usually have to stop for trams and buses to pass, according to traffic rules. Guess who doesn’t often follow those rules: cyclists.\nHowever, public transportation itself is super busy and unbelievably expensive in The Netherlands. It costs more than 20 Euros to travel ~70 kilometers. That’s why a lot of people still prefer to have a car, and cars simply need infrastructure.\nSo I don’t really get your point. Cars, bicycles and public transportation all get a fair portion of the space that’s available.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist, i hate pedestrians. Here in Germany, there is bike lanes, one part for bikes and one for pedestrians on traffic lights... etc. But the pedestrians just ignore them, form \"walls\" of people blocking the bike lane, dont look while crossing the bike lane. Even cars repect us more than you.",
">\n\nThis I understand. Experienced the same in Denmark",
">\n\nClaaaaaarksoooooonnnnn",
">\n\nIdk about other places but here cyclists are constantly breaking the law and never getting ticketed for it. It makes no sense to me. I don’t think it’d make a huge difference but I do think some cyclists would think twice about disregarding the rules if those rules were actually enforced.",
">\n\nI get the sentiment. My feeling is the root cause is they don’t have their own infrastructure. Cars and peds do. So cyclists are always forced into a non ideal path. \nI’m aware they have rights to the road but cars and bikes really struggle to share an infrastructure clearly made for cars. \nSo if we invest in cycling infrastructure everyone would probably be happier.",
">\n\ndoubt it. In my city there is an asphalt bike path for miles that is like 8 feet wide. Smooth. No stop signs. Do they use it? nope they get their collective ass out on the street and I honestly don't have a clue why.\nIt defies logic. Safter, smooth, not cars/trunks, etc. Here they are out on the street just fiddle farting down a 45 mph road like they own it with a bike path 15 feet away with no one on it. The last guy I asked said \"It is my road as well you know\" that I ran up on while I was at a crossing while riding on the path myself. I just gave up trying to understand. Someone dies on that road every couple of months from bike or pedestrian strike with a vehicle. It was the whole reason they built the path....",
">\n\nWell in my experience there are 2 thing going on there.\na) Often bikers will avoid the path because peds often share or walk across those paths and their speed is closer to that of a car than a ped or \nb) If they are commuting...the path likely isn't going exactly where they need to.\nAs to your specific scenario I don't doubt there are bikers that are hard headed and stubborn. I know a few of those. But generally I do bikers using the infrastructure where we have built it.",
">\n\nThere's an accident here involving @ car running over a cyclist who crossed a red traffic light. And guess who take the blame?",
">\n\nLaughs in being dutch",
">\n\nIt is regrettable that a handful of asshole cyclists ruins everyone’s opinion of us. It really undermines the support needed to improve infrastructure for cycling. \nIf it is any help, when i ring my bell, I am doing so to avoid the alternatives of either yelling a warning or startling people. I normally exit the path and pass on the grass. I would say that most cyclist are the same. I don’t want you to get out of the way, I want you to know I am there. \nBut it only takes a couple assholes that think they own the path or the street. I have a cousin like this and it is difficult to convince him his is wrong and is putting himself and others in danger.",
">\n\nI think the a-holes are people that are only on a bike because it's the easiest thing for them, living where they do. You and those like you are on the bike because you love cycling.",
">\n\nI live in Portland, OR, and the cyclists here are so fucking rude and entitled.",
">\n\nI live in not-Portland OR and visited once. I biked down the road. Could not believe how nice everyone was to me. Probably because they could tell I’m an outsider.",
">\n\nI meant how they treat everyone else who isn't on a bike, tbh.",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists and it's for a simple reason. They think they can do whatever the hell they want. They switch between a pedestrian, a cyclist and a vehicle deciding on the fly whatever rules they feel like following with no accountability. \nOne minute they are skipping traffic, then they are deciding to cross at a crosswalk instead of following traffic. And the sidewalks are bike lanes if that's more convenient.",
">\n\nI just get annoyed because they will ride double wide on a tight street, forcing you to go 60mph in a 45, on the opposite side of traffic, risking a head on collision. And yea, you have to do that, because otherwise cars behind you will start driving aggressive as well as the fact that your expecting all the cars to go at a bikes speed on the road.",
">\n\nThat's because every country except for the Netherlands and Denmark have shit bicycle infrastructure.",
">\n\nI civilised countries we have cycling paths and cycling on the street is also possible as drivers aren't insane. So this seems rather like a problem of poor urban planning than cyclists in general.",
">\n\nWhere I live the cyclists just refuse to take the bikelane and either block the traffic because the rather use the street or they decide to use the pedestrian side of the sidewalk. The frickin bikelane is as big as the pedestrian one. There is no excuse not to use it and they still won't! One of them almost hit me if I hadn't dodge it. If the cyclist only drove a few inches to the left there would have been a bikelane and it wouldn't happened. Of course the person didn't apologize and just cursed at me.",
">\n\nBike gutters are awful and less safe than taking the lane. Assholes park in the bike lanes ALL THE TIME. Plus no one ever looks behind them when getting out pf their car so getting smacked by a door is a real danger. Drivers are entitled but it’s not their fault it’s the way we’ve built society to allow and expect them to be.\nETA: next time you’re driving around take a count how many people you see pulled over or parked in a bike gutter.",
">\n\nCompletely agree - I was ran over almost 3 times in Berlin. \nAnd every single time I checked before crossing - but they just suddenly spawned right in the way",
">\n\nDid you cross at a designated crosswalk? As a cyclist the amount of times people just randomly meander across an active street instead of going to the zebra/lollipop crossing, and then get angry at me when I have to swerve out the way/ brake is comical.",
">\n\nMan, y'all are sad people. \n\"Get off the road!\" Okay, now we are on the sidewalk. \n\"Get off the sidewalk!\" Back in the road again. \n\"They need to ring their bells so we know they're coming! Btw I hate it when they ring their bells so I know they're coming.\"",
">\n\nI hate cyclists like that. I don’t have a car so my bike is my main source of transportation and I don’t ride like that. So far, from what I’ve noticed in my area, I’m the only one that follows the damn rules in my city xD",
">\n\nNo matter where you are and who you are… driver or walker, scooter or flyer… we ALL hate cyclists.",
">\n\nI feel ya. The only thing I hate more than cyclists is electric scooters.",
">\n\nCompletely agree! A cycling license (similar to driving) should be required. Far too many cyclist who doesn’t know (and those who don’t just give a F) about traffic rules.",
">\n\nI completely agree! Cyclists have a lot of rights on the roads, and are very vocal about them, but think they can do whatever the fuck they want at roundabouts and pedestrian crossings.",
">\n\nIt just fascinates me how anyone can walk or drive through a city and genuinely think that bicycles are the problem. Look around you at every turn there are cars jamming the roads. Parked blocking things. Blocking pavements. Driving aggressively. Speeding. Failing to stop. Polluting the air. If they hit you, you are seriously injured or dead. This happens in the thousands. The city absolutely revolves around them.",
">\n\nYou are 100% right. Except I didn't say bicycles are the problem. I said i hate them. I said fuck cars too. I also said bicycles are one of the best alternative for trafic jam in cities.\nCities in Europe weren't made for cars nor bikes. So the problem is the fucking lazy greedy people who decide how to spend our tax money. The problem is people thinking they are all alone on the street. The problem is how stressed everybody is and how it become dangerous.\nNot because I hate how cyclists take revenge from drivers bullies to pedestrians makes me hate a transportation model itself.",
">\n\nIt just seems odd that people can really harp on about cyclists when they are such a trivial issue. Posts like this can get hundreds of replies. People tend to make excuses about cars.",
">\n\nYou just insulted a whole country.",
">\n\nThe Netherlands? It's ok",
">\n\nOk",
">\n\nI judge the actions of the individual not the mode of transport. I find it produces more accurate results.",
">\n\nApparently \"individuals alone are responsible for their own actions\" is the real unpopular opinion here.",
">\n\nIndeed 😀",
">\n\nAs a car driver I also hate cyclists. Saw one on a 45mph the other day despite there being a sidewalk AND a bikelane",
">\n\n45 mph isn't a speed for bike lane or sidewalk. Street is",
">\n\nas a cyclist, I hate pedestrians.\nMy city put in these nice protected bicycle lanes so bikes don't have to ride inches from cars, and boy don't those pedestrians just LOVE using the bike lane as a queuing up spot for the crosswalks. it's just so nice and convenient to get 5 more feet closer to your goal, isn't it? Those bicycles can stop and wait...and feel free to swear at them like THEY are the ones in the wrong.\nBicycles and pedestrians are natural enemies, that's never going to change. There can be only one.",
">\n\nLET'S END THIS NOW !!!!!",
">\n\nanyplace but Holy Ground.",
">\n\ndon't blame all bicyclists for the shitty ones.\nthat would be like saying every person who drives a car is an asshole. or every person who walks on the sidewalk is an asshole.\nsome people are good at getting around. other people are jerks. don't blame everyone for the actions of a small subset of people.",
">\n\nI mean, isn’t that the sentiment over that the popular sub r/fuckcars? The generalization is already being perpetuated from cyclists and “urbanists” in their war against cars.",
">\n\nNot really. That sub mostly hates the focus on cars when designing infrastructure, as well as the forced dependency on cars in our modern world. Not individual drivers.",
">\n\nSure about that? It’s mostly just a bitch-fest about driver errors to further their political agenda.",
">\n\nYea, I'm pretty sure.",
">\n\nReally weird way to get there if that’s the case. Alienating a large portion of the population (car drivers, car riders, people that depend on vehicles for the delivery of goods and services) is not how you get them on your side.",
">\n\nI don't think that's their goal in the first place. It's just a reddit sub.",
">\n\nEspecially when they have a stupid fucking bell and say \"on the left\" then proceed to be on the right side of the trail running into you",
">\n\nHahahha \"is he coming on the left or should i go on the lef...\" BANG!!",
">\n\nGF lives in a college town. It’s as if there’s some kinda fuckin’ death wish among the student cycling population",
">\n\nAs a [insert anyone, including cyclist], I hate cyclists.",
">\n\nPeople don't wanna hear it when it comes from automobilists because \"gngn cars are more dangerous and drivers are entitled\" but reality is cyclists are just the worst. Whether I'm on foot, driving a car, or riding a bicycle myself, cyclists are always always the ones being absolute public hazards. Heck, when I'm on my bike and stop at the stop sign on a cycle lane to let the cars go, they look at me as if I'm jesus or something. They even try to let me pass first because of how used they are to cyclists who just can't be bothered to respect the damn stop sign.",
">\n\nThe problem isn't the cyclists here, it's the lacking infrastructure.",
">\n\nWe shouldn't have to build infrastructure so people can partake in recreation. I find that comment extremely arrogant. Why on earth do cyclists deserve to have their recreation glorified and catered to??",
">\n\nRecreation? Ah yes, cycling is only for recreation.",
">\n\nWell, where I live that I'd the ONLY purpose. I'm 17 miles from any city municipality. Nobody is biking here to go to the grocery store or work.",
">\n\nNot everything is about you personally.",
">\n\nTo me, it is, and should be. My concern is around how cyclists inconvenience me while I'm trying to be a productive member of society. I feel like that's a fair critique.",
">\n\nYou are mad that cyclists inconvenience you yet you reject dedicated infrastructure as a solution. Do you think cyclists should be banned off the road completely?",
">\n\nThe real issue here is lacking cycling infrastructure.",
">\n\nDefinitely a major issue.\nBut part of the issue is definitely cyclists who prioritize their own speed over the safety and welfare of everyone around them. It's like they are all BMW drivers, deep down, and just don't want to yield to or slow down for anyone.",
">\n\nI'm sure there are, assholes exist in all vehicle types.",
">\n\nCyclists know thar neither the pavement nor the road are theirs because motorists and pedestrians like you are both screaming at them all the time. And I swear you'd be angrier if they didn't give a polite warning that they're coming toward you. \nCyclists who breeze through crossings instead of stopping are a minority, much like cyclists are a minority in general, and you can't judge an entire group that aren't adequately represented",
">\n\nFuck traveling in general",
">\n\nYa. Where are our transporters! \nSorry had to go full nerd.",
">\n\nI see posts like this constantly. It blows my mind people can just choose one thing that is so insignificant to scapegoat. \nThey assume people on bikes don’t also walk, drive, etc like we are essentially subhuman for doing exercise / running errands in this way because they are inconvenienced for a few seconds. You realize we are human like you , right?\nPeople tell us to ride bicycles on the sidewalk when it’s illegal while others say not too. It’s usually against the law.\nThey tell us to ride closer to the right side of the road , so we get hit by a car door and yelled at again. \nThey’re mad that we give a verbal signal that we’re coming up on the left even though that’s the law. \nNow that I’m in Colorado I’m getting yelled at for the Idaho stop, which is completely legal. We yield to stop signs and temporarily stop at red lights only if it’s clear. It’s all to REDUCE CAR TRAFFIC. \nKeep in mind we are riding bicycles which in its own right REDUCES CAR TRAFFIC. \n80% of car trips are within 3 miles from your house. Everyone that rides a bike keeps you from being stuck behind them in traffic for longer then the 20 seconds you’re currently inconvenienced. It’s also mean parking closer to the front door of a shop. \nSo far I’ve had family members die from hit and runs and drunk drivers, but somehow cyclists are the most dangerous thing on the road today?! It’s not adding up.\nWhat is this really about?",
">\n\nI'm sorry for your losses. I never said bikers are the most dangerous things on the road. Saying this would be stupid. The problem in my city is the lack of respect from cyclists to pedestrians in a general way. I'm not even talking about drivers against EVERYTHING ON THE STREET.",
">\n\nI go out of my way to be respectful to everybody, and I’ve had nothing but kindness and respect from other cyclists .\nYou wanna blame everybody on a bicycle for all your problems when it’s really just about a few people who disrespected you. \nCyclists are drivers, walkers, etc. do they just jump on a bicycle and instantly become disrespectful?\nStill doesn’t make any logical sense.",
">\n\nDude you just don't get it.. i understand biking is your life.. but come on.\nI use to bike 40km per day to work. \nI don't have problems with people jumping on bikes. I simply hate the ones that are disrespectful.\nIs it too hard to understand? Just me venting coz I feel like a lot of bikers think they are on top of the citizen pyramid? \nI'm not venting about the system here, nor about cars.. just about some (yes some) bikers.\nAnd please there is no need to beg for upvotes on fuckcars how old are you?",
">\n\nI bet your fat.",
">\n\nOf course I fart !",
">\n\nTo you yours and to mine mine; I hate car users and their ilk who are filled with wonton waste and hate for all else who dare travel near them. I stop at all lights, halt for all signs, use a mirror, lights, and hand signals, pull over for cars coming my way so long as there is any room, and use what little biking infrastructure is available to me.\nMy taxes are waste and paid in folly for they assuredly go in portion to your reckless use of a powerful machine and not to my own reckless use of a small self-propelled stick on two wheels to separate lanes and keep them maintained. No, no, I must settle for the gutter and cry glee for that and be ashamed to move to the sidewalk when it suddenly ends and continues a block later down the road. \nFuck your car, your roads, and your selfish desire to pave the world and create cities with 60% of their coverage dedicated to driving a car, parking a car, and separating the world into places for cars and otherwise. You who drive faster and faster, in bigger and bigger cars. I loath you as you loath mine.",
">\n\nI wouldn’t hate cyclists if they didn’t act like road laws don’t apply to em in the city where I live. I’ve seen cyclists not even stop at red lights even with an almost full intersection, and ride the wrong way down one ways.\nEdit: I do wish the city where I live had more bike lanes but yeah.",
">\n\nIf you're going to hate someone, maybe hate the people actually doing those things.\nIf I see someone on a bike rush through a short break on a red light in an otherwise busy intersection, I shake my head and think they are an idiot. I think this while waiting for the light to turn green on my bike.\nSimilarly, when a car illegally stops in a bike lane (which happens ALL THE TIME by the way), I don't turn around and blame the cars moving along legally in the adjacent lane.",
">\n\nPedestrian are the worst.\nWhen i started using bicicle I was very polite: brake, ring, ask for permission. And what the large amount of people do? Ignore u, watch u in the eyes and take a step in the fucking middle of the trail (many many times! for real!), shout at you just because u exist. So.... At some point is fuck you all, I'm coming go out of the way. That's it",
">\n\n\nI will never drive nor park on a bike lane, always look into the mirror to be careful of one of you monkeys. So why can't you be careful when us peasants are walking?\n\nThis is dumb. Obviously there are plenty of cyclists who are careful and courteous about your safety. That's part of what a bell or \"watch out!\" (generally \"On your left\") is doing for you. And just because you are courteous to them doesn't mean everyone is. Is every driver a douchebag just because some of them crowd cyclists when and where the cyclist has the right to the road? No.",
">\n\nThe difference here is that generally car drivers are going to be held accountable for bad driving. This is in the form of dash cams, ANPR and red light cameras which catch drivers doing bad things and they can receive a fine or points on their licence. Cyclists currently can't be held accountable if they jump red lights or hit a car or pedestrian as there isn't anything that helps identify them. This is a big issue in cities. I live and work in London and see many cyclists jumping red lights and weaving around pedestrians crossing. Cars can't do this as most traffic lights have red light cameras that would catch this.\nDrivers as a collective (including me) are in no way perfect or even held to account 100% of the time, but I believe we need a system for cyclists to be held accountable too",
">\n\nYour way of thinking, while perfectly rational and natural, is outdated. Traffic law enforcement, like any other law enforcement, is less about the enforcement, and more about the prevention. Where I live, speed and red light cameras are clearly marked ahead so that the people who'd normally break the law follow it instead, making punishment unnecessary. \nSame could be done with cyclists. Sure, you could make every cyclist install a license plate, require a \"cycling license\", or install expensive cameras with facial identification software, but how about just make it so cyclists aren't incentivised to break the law in the first place? \nMake more useful cycling infrastructure, and more cyclists will use it. Make that infrastructure intersect with foot and motor traffic more safely and less often, and less collisions will happen.",
">\n\nI completely understand your point. However, a lot of money has gone into my local area for cycling infrastructure that most cyclists are using, but many are still choosing to break the rules as the rules are inconvenient. The infrastructure is not enough, there needs to be an incentive NOT to break the rules.\nIf you take a look at Chiswick High Road in London, England. They have created segregated cycle lanes from the traffic. These cycle lanes have their own lights and crossings to keep them safe from cars. However many cyclists just ignore the lights and just keep going into pedestrians. There is no punishment for them doing this as they can't be tracked. Personally I think every cyclist should have to register their bike (make it free to help encourage this) and then a new form of ANPR used to also catch cyclists in the act",
">\n\nPersonally I'd have no problem registering my bike for free, especially if I could use that same registration if it gets stolen, but registering something as mechanically simple and cheap as a bicycle is, in my opinion difficult if not impossible to do without making the bike mechanically complex and expensive, at which point most people would just switch to scooters.\nI don't live in London, but from what I've heard, by far the biggest threat in the city is still motorized traffic, namely cars and lorries, and so until that problem is no longer a problem, I wouldn't really do anything special about bikes. Maybe put some undercover bike cops near the most dangerous bike path/lane intersections to catch a few offenders and make an example out of them, but that's about it.",
">\n\nMost cars I’ve driven came equipped with brakes and a steering wheel. I don’t see the problem",
">\n\nA common take and a stupid one.\nThere are good and bad drivers, pedestrians, and cyclists. Hating any of them as a group because some of them do bad things is just dumb.",
">\n\nIf you followed the laws and stayed out of the bike lane as a pedestrian there would be no problem.",
">\n\nIf bicyclists followed the laws and stopped ignoring street signs/traffic lights there would be no problem.",
">\n\nDon’t see how this address the problem with pedestrians in bike lanes.",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Drivers pedestrians other cyclists. They're a scourge.",
">\n\nEvery word of this is pure wisdom.",
">\n\nAs a car driver, I too hate cyclists.\nI don't care who has 'right of way'. I'm in a car, you're not. If we collide, regardless of fault, you're the one that dies.\nDo you really want to die on the hill that says \"i can bike on the rode b/c it's legal\"?\nI might be in jail, but you're still dead.\nBikes don't belong on public roads. Unless there's a bike lane - aka, a pathway designed specifically for bikers.\nIt's FAR SAFER to bike on the sidewalk.",
">\n\nBe careful you’ll anger r/fuckcars",
">\n\nI recently got a bike in Japan and there isn't any room on the street to ride my bike. Most people are fine when I'm on the sidewalk, however, the worst ones are groups of 2 or more who try and take up as much space as possible allowing nobody to pass. Same with the people who constantly switch between the left and right side of the sidewalk. It's really annoying to see how little spacial awareness they have.",
">\n\nCyclists on the road don’t have to pass the same test as vehicles on the road, which is why they are so bad. If there was a test in order to cycle on the road then i think it would be alot better",
">\n\nWhy do you hate all cyclists when only some of them are rude/dangerous?",
">\n\nCope hehe",
">\n\nIt's the powered vehicles that kill most pedestrians.\nBut, sure, cyclists blahblah...",
">\n\nAs an occasional cyclist, I don't like you either.",
">\n\nI biked everywhere.....when I was a child. I'm an adult now and have an automobile. They are pretty neat.",
">\n\nWhen I used to have to walk to work I’d walk on the sidewalk and listen to music and one time this guy zipped right by me yelling almost knocking me over and flipped me off?? They act like they don’t have breaks lmao",
">\n\nholy smokes! glad you're ok",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Even cyclists.",
">\n\nAnd here i thought why the f pediatrician hate cyclists",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Even other cyclists.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist this thread is hilarious",
">\n\nAnyone got recommendations for how to be a nice, considerate cyclist besides being careful and non-entitled? I plan on starting when it gets warm outside.",
">\n\nNot unpopular",
">\n\nWhen I drive to work, I obey most of the rules. I just can't drive on some roads. That would either kill me at some point or I'd slow down a whole 60 km/h lane that's packed with traffic. When riding on the sidewalk, I always stop or get off my bike if it gets too crowded or the sidewalk narrows. But when no one is around I just keep driving normally, just slower than usual. I try to stay alert at all times and let everyone pass because I know I'm wrong here.\nAt one point there is a one-way street I'm not allowed to drive on, but as my alternatives are the same 60km/h road (but now also with rails) or a crowded sidewalk, I prefer the one-way street with maybe 4 cars per hour that I can easily avoid. After that there is finally a bike path until I get to work. There would be a legal route, but it would take twice, if not triple, the time.\nI also hate reckless cyclists. They have already endangered me and are often unfriendly assholes. I just don't have a death wish and don't want to drive a route in an hour if 20 minutes are possible in a safe way (If the brain gets used).",
">\n\nCyclists don’t care because unless they get injured there are no real consequences for their actions.\nI think that any vehicle, with or without any type of motor, should require a license to operate on a public roadway. Road legal bikes need to be held to quality standards, like cars, and should also be registered. If you wish to ride one on a public roadway it should have a number plate on it. You should have to pass a rider’s ed course proving that you know the rules of the road. There should be a test proving that you can control the vehicle and operate it safely, same as a car or motorcycle.",
">\n\nYeah I’ve nearly been run over from behind by cyclists on sidewalks too many times",
">\n\nIdk maybe my town is weird like everwhere on the internet and even in statistics you hear stuff like that but then I haven't really seen any cyclists run red lights ever and as someone who maybe not often but sometimes cycles, the last thing I'd do as a cyclist is run a red light like I don't wanna die?",
">\n\nOnly people that like cyclist.. are probably just other cyclists.",
">\n\nI don’t mind normal, law-abiding cyclists at all. I just despise the ones that think they can choose whether to act like a car or pedestrian whenever they feel like it. Or worse, they don’t know the actual laws but think they are special just because they are riding a bike.",
">\n\nSometimes I feel like I am the only one watching out for pedestrians. For example when there's a crosswalk coming up that goes over the bike path and there's someone waiting, I always yield and the person waiting is often surprised since most people on bicycles just carry on. So not all cyclists are like that.",
">\n\nAs a pedestrian, cyclist and driver, I hate taxis.",
">\n\nI once almost got hit by a cyclist who failed to stop at a stop sign",
">\n\nCyclist have it both ways which isn’t fair. They can drive on the road AND the sidewalk and use pedestrian crossings when they feel like it. It’s like they have no road rules once on a bike. \nOn the sidewalk I have to get outta the way? No bikeperson. You shouldn’t even be on the sidewalk in the first place! Maybe if you’re under 10 but otherwise drive your vehicle on the road like all other adults!",
">\n\nI knew a cyclist who would always talk shit about cars. He told me he’s been hit TEN TIMES. UMMM?? If you’ve been hit ten times then it’s not the cars fault…",
">\n\nYou must be from New York lol fuck the cyclists up there",
">\n\nAmen brother",
">\n\nLol. Everyone talks like this. No one likes cyclists. \nExcept me. I legit find it hilarious when they fuck with cars and even pedestrians. I saw a cyclist slap a pedestrian staring at their phone in the middle of the road 2 days ago. Cyclist warned him multiple times so cyclist open palmed him as he passed. Fucking hilarious.",
">\n\nYeah hitting people out of anger rather than doing the right thing is so funny",
">\n\nA stick in the spokes will solve the issue of a rude cyclist. \nA joisting pole will solve the issue of rude pedestrians. \nI look forward to the news"
] |
>
I hate when people bike on busy roads. Unfortunately a girl near my home was killed on a busy highway cycling. The driver over corrected and hit her. No alcohol, texting, nothing. Now someone is dead and another has to live with overwhelming guilt the rest of their life
|
[
"I road cycled for years, I always followed the street rules. Always. Red light means red light. \nI have so many cycling friends who get into accidents and other conflicts with drivers, and yet they think it’s stupid to stop at a red light. They just don’t connect these two things",
">\n\nMost bikers I encounter are complete idiots. Like I'd be driving normally and out of nowhere comes a biker on a crosswalk in full speed. Now, I appreciate bikers who actually stop and make eye contact with me as I'm driving towards the crosswalk but man, it's either that or the biker almost dies because I have no time to brake.\nAnd what's up with all the bikers going like 5 kmh IN THE MIDDLE of a road when there's a dedicated sidewalk for bikers right next to them? Drives me insane.",
">\n\nIt seems like most bikers because of observation bias.\nIf you follow the rules as you should, you’re unmemorable.\nAs for the sidewalks - its actually less safe on the sidewalk.",
">\n\nInteresting. Dangerous situations are more valuable to remember, and I remember tons of irresponsible bikers. It is in fact observation bias. But I'm always happy to see those who pay close attention to traffic, and I do remeber some of them aswell.",
">\n\nWell the same goes for driving. How many cars do you remember when they haven’t done anything? But you tend to remember the ones who do something dumb",
">\n\nYeah it can be applied to anything really.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist in one of the most bike-dense cities in the world, I hate cyclists too. If I could avoid getting myself hurt, I’d be ramming at least ten of them a day just to teach a lesson about ignoring rules and common sense.",
">\n\nAmsterdam? Copenhagen?",
">\n\nCopenhagen. It’s a wonderful bike city but the people are incredibly self-centered.",
">\n\nI had high expectations from cyclists when I first visited the city, after all it is heralded as a cycling paradise and, well, let’s say it looked a lot more like the rest of the world and mainly because of the personal behavior of cyclists.\nMy local friend justified it, stating that it’s because danish are more temperamental than all other Scandinavians: an explanation that I really didn’t know what to do with…",
">\n\nIf “temperamental” means “a bunch of egotistical [insert unflattering body part]”, he’s right.",
">\n\nYou make it sound like a war zone. I live in Copenhagen and most of the time biking around the city is very pleasant. Except for the food delivery scooters, they can 🤬 off.",
">\n\nI guess it depends on how often and where you’re going. If you have places to be each and every day and want to get there effectively, people ignoring general rules and courtesies of the road are a pain. If you’re one of the types listening to podcasts with a latte in one hand and a phone in the other just trudging along, it’s probably fine.",
">\n\nSame! I love walking. Where I live on popular trails, there are bike lanes, but the cyclists will just ride wherever they. They don’t care and won’t let you know they’re coming. They’ll get pissy if you don’t just automatically know they’re coming up from behind you. If you do much as step foot in the bike lane, they get mad, but have no problems riding side by side outside the bike lane.",
">\n\nSame here! So much for my pleasant walk on the beautiful Trail. They sneak up and when they're almost on top of me, a loud voice yells \"On your left!\" They startle the shit out of me and cause me to jump sky high! 😡",
">\n\nIt’s literally the law to say that. This thread is all about hating them no matter if they follow the law or not.",
">\n\nIs it possible to do that without sneaking up on them and startling the shit out of them by yelling real loud? And then cutting is close to them as you possibly can without hitting them?",
">\n\nHello. \nMy useless comment to this post is here :D\nSo, i work in the accidents department of a big insurance company. My country is very strickt about the road rules, meaning:\nOur company estimates (is this the right word?) that around 82% of accidents involving cyclists, are to blame on the cyclist. Since there are expecific places on the road for you to ride your bike, even if it's not a bike lane.\nI remember a case where 3 dudes were just cycling, outside of town and they were literally on the middle of the road. the place where they were is full of curves and has very little visibility, so they were riding side by side, middle of the road, comes a car, hits not one, but the 3 of them because they scared the person and she just swerved the car.\nThey sued her and us (insurance) 2 times. Lost both and had to pay for all damage done on the car by their own bodys",
">\n\nThis sounds like something that happened near by my home town, are you in Ontario?",
">\n\nno XD portugal",
">\n\nGod its so much worse that it's happened in multiple places.\nIn ours I think the driver killed one of the cyclists, then sued the family for emotional damage",
">\n\nMy biggest gripe about cyclists is that there is always some danger when you encounter them on the road, either as a pedestrian or motorist. Now, part of it isn’t their fault. At least here in the US, not much of the infrastructure is made for bicycles. But cyclists are constantly breaking the rules of the road (or sidewalk) to get where they’re going faster. Blowing red lights, leaving the bike lane to use the sidewalk, splitting lanes. I always clench a little when I approach one, wondering if this is the day I can’t get out of the way.",
">\n\nWe have that same problem, but then a million times worse, because I live in The Netherlands. You probably know about our proud cycling culture (the Amsterdam stereotype). And yes, cyclists here are just as bad as the ones you describe, but there’s a lot more of them here. And oh yeah, traffic laws are almost always in their favor.",
">\n\nI found driving in the towns of the Netherlands so hard. Not just because I was on the wrong side of the road 😉 but because I just wasn’t used to sooo many cyclists coming from all directions, always faster than me and passing on both sides. Even as I was signalling to leave a roundabout at one point about three cyclists rode past on the inside. I really struggled to keep up with them all, which of course means I drove slower and thus even more bikes passed me!",
">\n\nYes that is of course very difficult, however as a Dutchman I’m used to cyclists, so of course we struggle a lot less. But that doesn’t take away from the fact that cyclists do cause a lot of issues because of their careless behavior, and because as drivers we have to accommodate them. That one sided ‘deal’ that we have makes it very difficult to deal with them.\nAll in all I’m happy we have so many cyclists as it’s good for the environment. But the utopian mindset of cyclists being a gift to the world is just stupid. Especially when you consider that mostly Americans who drive on wide open roads with barely any cyclists around are the ones praising cyclists in my country all the time. Also, cyclists annoy the hell out of pedestrians as well, so it’s not just about motorists.",
">\n\nCyclists treat red lights like stop signs and stop signs like yield signs (at best). They’re not allowed on sidewalks but do it anyway. Fuckin hate cyclists.",
">\n\nEverything you said is completely legal in Denver and sidewalks are illegal , but drivers constantly scream at cyclists to ride there",
">\n\nCyclist can roll stop signs and run red lights in Denver? What the fuck?",
">\n\nI’d have no problem if cyclist had respect for other road users. where I live there are cycle lanes, but most cyclists are on the road or pavements, they ignore red lights etc. \nIf you want to cycle please make it’s safe for yourself and others around you.",
">\n\nExactly my thoughts",
">\n\nHonestly, selfish assholes exist everywhere but a selfish asshole on a bicycle does a lot less damage than a selfish asshole in a car. \nEDIT: OP's also downvoting everyone who disagrees with him, just fyi.",
">\n\nAs a pedestrian, I hate everyone who's not a pedestrian... And some pedestrians too.",
">\n\nThere's a reason so many cyclists die each year, they all seem to pick and choose which laws they want to follow. Its always safer to assume they'll do whatever they want and everyone else needs to adapt to them.",
">\n\nAs a driver downtown, I don't worry at all about pedestrians at intersections, I can turn my head and assume they will be maybe five feet closer to my car when I look back, (and I trust they won't sprint towards me when I look away, at their own peril), but bikes, they ride so fast, that in the short time I turn my head to check for oncoming traffic, a bike could materialize right beside / infront me, and I risk hitting them or them hitting the side of my car. And that's even in their designated bike lane, that I have to pass through to clear the intersection. And if I drive into a ped at three miles per hour, they will just hit my hood with their fist and call me a stupid motherfucker, or whatever makes them feel justice was served, but if I bump the bike, it will be a big crash, the bicyclist will be all curled up in a ball on the ground, I'll be the bad guy in the eyes of the law and anyone nearby, and I'll probably be late as fuck to wherever it is I'm trying to go to.",
">\n\nI skateboard so I guess I'm good",
">\n\nJust don’t inconvenience narcissistic car drivers by a few seconds.",
">\n\nI think everyone hates cyclists. Cyclists included.",
">\n\nAs a driver, I hate you both",
">\n\nPedestrians are literally the worst. Anyone who has to walk more than 20 feet a day and not to their car are complete losers, and should be jailed on site.",
">\n\nOK, I think that's a bit extreme. But hey, if you're running for public office I'll vote for you. \nI do have to wonder anytime I see someone that I know has the mental faculties to drive who is walking. Usually assume too many DUI's.",
">\n\nr/fuckcars ripping out their hair rn",
">\n\nNot unpopular.\n Everyone hates cyclists.",
">\n\nI casually cycle in the summer. If I'm on a trail, I'll slow down and ring my bell if I see pedestrians, or stop and dismount if there's a lot of people or they don't notice me. Especially on the narrow trails in this woodlot I sometimes go to. \nThe problem is a lot of cyclists, especially in North America, but perhaps other places, just aren't respectful of others. They demand car drivers \"share the road\", but then ride in huge packs, lane split, don't signal turns, run stop signs and red lights, weave in and out of traffic, boot up busy sidewalks at 15-20mph, refuse to use provided bike lanes, etc. There's like a gross sense of entitlement in the cycling community. Dude, you're still a vehicle. There's rules that apply to you, just like there are for cars and motorcycles. Big problem is difficulty/lack of enforcement. Cops have to catch them in the act. Even then they're slippery devils since they're usually more mobile than a cruiser or beat cop on foot. This is why I support plating bikes to make them easily identifiable.",
">\n\n\nThere's like a gross sense of entitlement in the cycling community. Dude, you're still a vehicle. There's rules that apply to you, just like there are for cars and motorcycles.\n\nThat is the problem right there. They want to be treated equal to car owners, yet they do not abide by traffic rules, hence all the accidents.",
">\n\nAs a driver, I concur.",
">\n\nI hate bikers on trails. They're supposed to stop and let hikers by but they never do. They go by so freakin' fast too. It's like come on now!",
">\n\nAs a mostly former cyclist, I often hated cyclists too. Mostly, because so many cyclist are just competitive asshats that suck the pleasure out of their own bike ride by making everything about speed. Like, heaven forbid they have to slow and yield to anyone.\nOnce, I was riding my bicycle with my young daughter on a bike path in the city. A couple cyclist came up and got all pissy at us, saying we need to be out of the cycle lane because we were going too slow and my 8 year old kid wasn't keeping to a narrow lane. It was so hostile - my kid started crying.\nBut that is just so typical, all the time. I've gotten yelled out a few times when I made a full, foot down stop at a redlight because the cyclist behind me was expecting me to either run the redlight or at least go into the crosswalk and dance around (like they do) until it went green. I remember nearly getting run over by cyclists all the time, and yelled at if I was going too slow.\nThat being said, we need to do 100,000 x more in the US towards making bike paths, protected bike lanes, etc., because cyling is a truly great way to get around and I miss it. I just don't miss the self-centered asshats that dominate the cycling community.",
">\n\nThis!",
">\n\nI’ve nothing against cyclists as a group. I prefer to hate all people who do stupid things whether they’re in cars, on bikes or walking. Went to pick my daughter up tonight and counted six cyclists in the dark wearing all black with no lights at all plus one with a light so weak I didn’t see it until I was nearly past him. Tonight it was dumb cyclists, but tomorrow it might be idiots in cars. Hate the idiots not the method of transportation.",
">\n\nTrue !",
">\n\nOMG YES !! I completely agree. Every time i tried to explain this to a friend, they would always look at me like I am crazy for thinking such a thing. But as I walk for 45 minutes every days, it became a reality you can't ignore... I can't count how many times I nearly got hit by a cyclist, it happens every other week. I am starting to think that cyclists should have to go through a \"course\" to learn the basics of using the streets x)\n(Sorry for mistakes, not native here 'x) )",
">\n\nThis is my story lol..",
">\n\nYes, and it also is my personal experience, which is why I posted this..?",
">\n\nYes I totally agree. Just saying \"that's my life\" :) happening in Brussels tho",
">\n\nMy bad x) welp France here, it amazes me in a really bad way how this seems to be such a common phenomenon literaly EVERYWHERE",
">\n\nJ'ai roulé en vélo à Paris et laisse tomber l'enfer que c'était. J'avais l'impression d'avancer avec des oies qui insultaient tout le monde. BAa bAAA BAaaAa !!! \nLe problème c'est que plus les gens sont stressés (même les piétons... Genre dans le metro) plus ils se haïssent et ce matin j'avais la haine sur les vélos.. en vrai j'ai la haine sur tous les citadins haha",
">\n\nas a cyclist I hate everyone",
">\n\nSame, I see posts like this where people tell us to ride on the sidewalk when it’s illegal. \nThey assume we don’t walk anywhere, drive, etc like we are essentially subhuman for doing exercise.\nThey tell us to ride closer to the right side of the road so we get hit by a car door. \nThey’re mad that we give a verbal signal that we’re coming up on the left even though that’s the law. \nnow that I’m in Colorado I’m getting yelled at for the Idaho stop, which is completely legal. We yield to stop signs and temporarily stop at red light only till it’s clear. It’s all to REDUCE CAR TRAFFIC.\nSo far I’ve had family members die from hit and runs and drunk drivers, but somehow cyclists are the most dangerous thing on the road today.\nWhat is this really about?",
">\n\nI loathe cyclists. Selfish, entitled lycra lunatics.",
">\n\nBe honest, do you realize that it's possible to ride a bicycle and not be selfish, or entitled, or a lunatic, or not wear lycra?",
">\n\nThis thread is such a circlejerk, it's ridiculous.",
">\n\nThat's what I'm here for",
">\n\nIt's because cycling isn't regulated like motor vehicles are but they still get on the roads unlike pedestrians. So they don't have knowledge on the rules of the road that drivers have.\nThere's also some sort of hypocrisy they have where they believe drivers should give way to them because bikes are more vulnerable than cars while expecting pedestrians to give way to them because they're moving faster.",
">\n\n\nSo they don't have knowledge on the rules of the road\n\nPlenty do. Many cyclists also are automobilists. They just feel like they're exempted from respecting trafic rules because it's tiring to stop and go on a bike and they're slower an lighter than cars.",
">\n\nSure you got hit by a truck, but at least you managed to save yourself a little time and avoid waiting for a few seconds. Is what I'd say if they didn't then end up in the hospital",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists, as it should be.",
">\n\nCyclists shouldn’t be on sidewalks",
">\n\nI also cringe a lot when I see the international Reddit community constantly praise us Dutch people for our biking culture. People have no idea how many traffic accidents we get that could have been avoided if we didn’t have cyclists EVERYWHERE who are barely aware of the traffic rules that also apply to them.\nPeople have no idea about how cyclists are almost always right according to our traffic laws, which makes them much more reckless. They cause millions of dollars of damage to cars (and pedestrians) each year, and barely ever face consequences for their irresponsible and reckless behavior in traffic.\nPeople don’t see how cyclists often block traffic because they like to cycle next to each other in pairs, and if you honk they get angry and sometimes even aggressive and try to break your side mirror if they feel like it.\nMany intersections have bicycle lanes that you need to check when making a turn when driving, even though the intersection is already super busy with lots of cars. And guess what, cyclists still ride around fast and recklessly and making sure you don’t hit another car, cyclist AND pedestrian is all the job of one single driver.\nSo all in all, people from countries where driving is a relatively easy and chill thing to do, praise cycling culture in other countries. Try to drive here in busy traffic with thousands of cars AND (RECKLESS) CYCLISTS on the road and then tell me what it’s like.",
">\n\nIt would be much easier to sympathize with cars drivers if they did not need like 60% of the entire transit space leaving cyclists and pedestrians very little.\n\neven though the intersection is already super busy with lots of cars\n\nOfc, because cars are so large and need so much space.",
">\n\nI get that, but why is that my fault? I don’t do the city planning. Besides, cars are much larger than bicycles, so doesn’t it make sense there’s more space needed for cars than for bicycles?\nBut even then, if you don’t want to have any sympathy for motorists, because city planners give them more space than others, that’s just weird. It’s not the motorist’s fault.",
">\n\n\ndoesn’t it make sense there’s more space needed for cars than for bicycles?\n\nWhy a valuable and scarce resource such as the public space in cities should be used predominantly to benefit car users while barring everyone else? \nI just find it much harder to sympathize with the privileged group.",
">\n\nBecause people need to be able to go from A to B?",
">\n\nSo do pedestrians/public transport users/cyclists. But they don't require so much space per person.",
">\n\nWell in The Netherlands public transportation takes up an enormous amount of space and cyclists have their own dedicated lanes almost everywhere. Also motorists have to give public transportation space as we usually have to stop for trams and buses to pass, according to traffic rules. Guess who doesn’t often follow those rules: cyclists.\nHowever, public transportation itself is super busy and unbelievably expensive in The Netherlands. It costs more than 20 Euros to travel ~70 kilometers. That’s why a lot of people still prefer to have a car, and cars simply need infrastructure.\nSo I don’t really get your point. Cars, bicycles and public transportation all get a fair portion of the space that’s available.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist, i hate pedestrians. Here in Germany, there is bike lanes, one part for bikes and one for pedestrians on traffic lights... etc. But the pedestrians just ignore them, form \"walls\" of people blocking the bike lane, dont look while crossing the bike lane. Even cars repect us more than you.",
">\n\nThis I understand. Experienced the same in Denmark",
">\n\nClaaaaaarksoooooonnnnn",
">\n\nIdk about other places but here cyclists are constantly breaking the law and never getting ticketed for it. It makes no sense to me. I don’t think it’d make a huge difference but I do think some cyclists would think twice about disregarding the rules if those rules were actually enforced.",
">\n\nI get the sentiment. My feeling is the root cause is they don’t have their own infrastructure. Cars and peds do. So cyclists are always forced into a non ideal path. \nI’m aware they have rights to the road but cars and bikes really struggle to share an infrastructure clearly made for cars. \nSo if we invest in cycling infrastructure everyone would probably be happier.",
">\n\ndoubt it. In my city there is an asphalt bike path for miles that is like 8 feet wide. Smooth. No stop signs. Do they use it? nope they get their collective ass out on the street and I honestly don't have a clue why.\nIt defies logic. Safter, smooth, not cars/trunks, etc. Here they are out on the street just fiddle farting down a 45 mph road like they own it with a bike path 15 feet away with no one on it. The last guy I asked said \"It is my road as well you know\" that I ran up on while I was at a crossing while riding on the path myself. I just gave up trying to understand. Someone dies on that road every couple of months from bike or pedestrian strike with a vehicle. It was the whole reason they built the path....",
">\n\nWell in my experience there are 2 thing going on there.\na) Often bikers will avoid the path because peds often share or walk across those paths and their speed is closer to that of a car than a ped or \nb) If they are commuting...the path likely isn't going exactly where they need to.\nAs to your specific scenario I don't doubt there are bikers that are hard headed and stubborn. I know a few of those. But generally I do bikers using the infrastructure where we have built it.",
">\n\nThere's an accident here involving @ car running over a cyclist who crossed a red traffic light. And guess who take the blame?",
">\n\nLaughs in being dutch",
">\n\nIt is regrettable that a handful of asshole cyclists ruins everyone’s opinion of us. It really undermines the support needed to improve infrastructure for cycling. \nIf it is any help, when i ring my bell, I am doing so to avoid the alternatives of either yelling a warning or startling people. I normally exit the path and pass on the grass. I would say that most cyclist are the same. I don’t want you to get out of the way, I want you to know I am there. \nBut it only takes a couple assholes that think they own the path or the street. I have a cousin like this and it is difficult to convince him his is wrong and is putting himself and others in danger.",
">\n\nI think the a-holes are people that are only on a bike because it's the easiest thing for them, living where they do. You and those like you are on the bike because you love cycling.",
">\n\nI live in Portland, OR, and the cyclists here are so fucking rude and entitled.",
">\n\nI live in not-Portland OR and visited once. I biked down the road. Could not believe how nice everyone was to me. Probably because they could tell I’m an outsider.",
">\n\nI meant how they treat everyone else who isn't on a bike, tbh.",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists and it's for a simple reason. They think they can do whatever the hell they want. They switch between a pedestrian, a cyclist and a vehicle deciding on the fly whatever rules they feel like following with no accountability. \nOne minute they are skipping traffic, then they are deciding to cross at a crosswalk instead of following traffic. And the sidewalks are bike lanes if that's more convenient.",
">\n\nI just get annoyed because they will ride double wide on a tight street, forcing you to go 60mph in a 45, on the opposite side of traffic, risking a head on collision. And yea, you have to do that, because otherwise cars behind you will start driving aggressive as well as the fact that your expecting all the cars to go at a bikes speed on the road.",
">\n\nThat's because every country except for the Netherlands and Denmark have shit bicycle infrastructure.",
">\n\nI civilised countries we have cycling paths and cycling on the street is also possible as drivers aren't insane. So this seems rather like a problem of poor urban planning than cyclists in general.",
">\n\nWhere I live the cyclists just refuse to take the bikelane and either block the traffic because the rather use the street or they decide to use the pedestrian side of the sidewalk. The frickin bikelane is as big as the pedestrian one. There is no excuse not to use it and they still won't! One of them almost hit me if I hadn't dodge it. If the cyclist only drove a few inches to the left there would have been a bikelane and it wouldn't happened. Of course the person didn't apologize and just cursed at me.",
">\n\nBike gutters are awful and less safe than taking the lane. Assholes park in the bike lanes ALL THE TIME. Plus no one ever looks behind them when getting out pf their car so getting smacked by a door is a real danger. Drivers are entitled but it’s not their fault it’s the way we’ve built society to allow and expect them to be.\nETA: next time you’re driving around take a count how many people you see pulled over or parked in a bike gutter.",
">\n\nCompletely agree - I was ran over almost 3 times in Berlin. \nAnd every single time I checked before crossing - but they just suddenly spawned right in the way",
">\n\nDid you cross at a designated crosswalk? As a cyclist the amount of times people just randomly meander across an active street instead of going to the zebra/lollipop crossing, and then get angry at me when I have to swerve out the way/ brake is comical.",
">\n\nMan, y'all are sad people. \n\"Get off the road!\" Okay, now we are on the sidewalk. \n\"Get off the sidewalk!\" Back in the road again. \n\"They need to ring their bells so we know they're coming! Btw I hate it when they ring their bells so I know they're coming.\"",
">\n\nI hate cyclists like that. I don’t have a car so my bike is my main source of transportation and I don’t ride like that. So far, from what I’ve noticed in my area, I’m the only one that follows the damn rules in my city xD",
">\n\nNo matter where you are and who you are… driver or walker, scooter or flyer… we ALL hate cyclists.",
">\n\nI feel ya. The only thing I hate more than cyclists is electric scooters.",
">\n\nCompletely agree! A cycling license (similar to driving) should be required. Far too many cyclist who doesn’t know (and those who don’t just give a F) about traffic rules.",
">\n\nI completely agree! Cyclists have a lot of rights on the roads, and are very vocal about them, but think they can do whatever the fuck they want at roundabouts and pedestrian crossings.",
">\n\nIt just fascinates me how anyone can walk or drive through a city and genuinely think that bicycles are the problem. Look around you at every turn there are cars jamming the roads. Parked blocking things. Blocking pavements. Driving aggressively. Speeding. Failing to stop. Polluting the air. If they hit you, you are seriously injured or dead. This happens in the thousands. The city absolutely revolves around them.",
">\n\nYou are 100% right. Except I didn't say bicycles are the problem. I said i hate them. I said fuck cars too. I also said bicycles are one of the best alternative for trafic jam in cities.\nCities in Europe weren't made for cars nor bikes. So the problem is the fucking lazy greedy people who decide how to spend our tax money. The problem is people thinking they are all alone on the street. The problem is how stressed everybody is and how it become dangerous.\nNot because I hate how cyclists take revenge from drivers bullies to pedestrians makes me hate a transportation model itself.",
">\n\nIt just seems odd that people can really harp on about cyclists when they are such a trivial issue. Posts like this can get hundreds of replies. People tend to make excuses about cars.",
">\n\nYou just insulted a whole country.",
">\n\nThe Netherlands? It's ok",
">\n\nOk",
">\n\nI judge the actions of the individual not the mode of transport. I find it produces more accurate results.",
">\n\nApparently \"individuals alone are responsible for their own actions\" is the real unpopular opinion here.",
">\n\nIndeed 😀",
">\n\nAs a car driver I also hate cyclists. Saw one on a 45mph the other day despite there being a sidewalk AND a bikelane",
">\n\n45 mph isn't a speed for bike lane or sidewalk. Street is",
">\n\nas a cyclist, I hate pedestrians.\nMy city put in these nice protected bicycle lanes so bikes don't have to ride inches from cars, and boy don't those pedestrians just LOVE using the bike lane as a queuing up spot for the crosswalks. it's just so nice and convenient to get 5 more feet closer to your goal, isn't it? Those bicycles can stop and wait...and feel free to swear at them like THEY are the ones in the wrong.\nBicycles and pedestrians are natural enemies, that's never going to change. There can be only one.",
">\n\nLET'S END THIS NOW !!!!!",
">\n\nanyplace but Holy Ground.",
">\n\ndon't blame all bicyclists for the shitty ones.\nthat would be like saying every person who drives a car is an asshole. or every person who walks on the sidewalk is an asshole.\nsome people are good at getting around. other people are jerks. don't blame everyone for the actions of a small subset of people.",
">\n\nI mean, isn’t that the sentiment over that the popular sub r/fuckcars? The generalization is already being perpetuated from cyclists and “urbanists” in their war against cars.",
">\n\nNot really. That sub mostly hates the focus on cars when designing infrastructure, as well as the forced dependency on cars in our modern world. Not individual drivers.",
">\n\nSure about that? It’s mostly just a bitch-fest about driver errors to further their political agenda.",
">\n\nYea, I'm pretty sure.",
">\n\nReally weird way to get there if that’s the case. Alienating a large portion of the population (car drivers, car riders, people that depend on vehicles for the delivery of goods and services) is not how you get them on your side.",
">\n\nI don't think that's their goal in the first place. It's just a reddit sub.",
">\n\nEspecially when they have a stupid fucking bell and say \"on the left\" then proceed to be on the right side of the trail running into you",
">\n\nHahahha \"is he coming on the left or should i go on the lef...\" BANG!!",
">\n\nGF lives in a college town. It’s as if there’s some kinda fuckin’ death wish among the student cycling population",
">\n\nAs a [insert anyone, including cyclist], I hate cyclists.",
">\n\nPeople don't wanna hear it when it comes from automobilists because \"gngn cars are more dangerous and drivers are entitled\" but reality is cyclists are just the worst. Whether I'm on foot, driving a car, or riding a bicycle myself, cyclists are always always the ones being absolute public hazards. Heck, when I'm on my bike and stop at the stop sign on a cycle lane to let the cars go, they look at me as if I'm jesus or something. They even try to let me pass first because of how used they are to cyclists who just can't be bothered to respect the damn stop sign.",
">\n\nThe problem isn't the cyclists here, it's the lacking infrastructure.",
">\n\nWe shouldn't have to build infrastructure so people can partake in recreation. I find that comment extremely arrogant. Why on earth do cyclists deserve to have their recreation glorified and catered to??",
">\n\nRecreation? Ah yes, cycling is only for recreation.",
">\n\nWell, where I live that I'd the ONLY purpose. I'm 17 miles from any city municipality. Nobody is biking here to go to the grocery store or work.",
">\n\nNot everything is about you personally.",
">\n\nTo me, it is, and should be. My concern is around how cyclists inconvenience me while I'm trying to be a productive member of society. I feel like that's a fair critique.",
">\n\nYou are mad that cyclists inconvenience you yet you reject dedicated infrastructure as a solution. Do you think cyclists should be banned off the road completely?",
">\n\nThe real issue here is lacking cycling infrastructure.",
">\n\nDefinitely a major issue.\nBut part of the issue is definitely cyclists who prioritize their own speed over the safety and welfare of everyone around them. It's like they are all BMW drivers, deep down, and just don't want to yield to or slow down for anyone.",
">\n\nI'm sure there are, assholes exist in all vehicle types.",
">\n\nCyclists know thar neither the pavement nor the road are theirs because motorists and pedestrians like you are both screaming at them all the time. And I swear you'd be angrier if they didn't give a polite warning that they're coming toward you. \nCyclists who breeze through crossings instead of stopping are a minority, much like cyclists are a minority in general, and you can't judge an entire group that aren't adequately represented",
">\n\nFuck traveling in general",
">\n\nYa. Where are our transporters! \nSorry had to go full nerd.",
">\n\nI see posts like this constantly. It blows my mind people can just choose one thing that is so insignificant to scapegoat. \nThey assume people on bikes don’t also walk, drive, etc like we are essentially subhuman for doing exercise / running errands in this way because they are inconvenienced for a few seconds. You realize we are human like you , right?\nPeople tell us to ride bicycles on the sidewalk when it’s illegal while others say not too. It’s usually against the law.\nThey tell us to ride closer to the right side of the road , so we get hit by a car door and yelled at again. \nThey’re mad that we give a verbal signal that we’re coming up on the left even though that’s the law. \nNow that I’m in Colorado I’m getting yelled at for the Idaho stop, which is completely legal. We yield to stop signs and temporarily stop at red lights only if it’s clear. It’s all to REDUCE CAR TRAFFIC. \nKeep in mind we are riding bicycles which in its own right REDUCES CAR TRAFFIC. \n80% of car trips are within 3 miles from your house. Everyone that rides a bike keeps you from being stuck behind them in traffic for longer then the 20 seconds you’re currently inconvenienced. It’s also mean parking closer to the front door of a shop. \nSo far I’ve had family members die from hit and runs and drunk drivers, but somehow cyclists are the most dangerous thing on the road today?! It’s not adding up.\nWhat is this really about?",
">\n\nI'm sorry for your losses. I never said bikers are the most dangerous things on the road. Saying this would be stupid. The problem in my city is the lack of respect from cyclists to pedestrians in a general way. I'm not even talking about drivers against EVERYTHING ON THE STREET.",
">\n\nI go out of my way to be respectful to everybody, and I’ve had nothing but kindness and respect from other cyclists .\nYou wanna blame everybody on a bicycle for all your problems when it’s really just about a few people who disrespected you. \nCyclists are drivers, walkers, etc. do they just jump on a bicycle and instantly become disrespectful?\nStill doesn’t make any logical sense.",
">\n\nDude you just don't get it.. i understand biking is your life.. but come on.\nI use to bike 40km per day to work. \nI don't have problems with people jumping on bikes. I simply hate the ones that are disrespectful.\nIs it too hard to understand? Just me venting coz I feel like a lot of bikers think they are on top of the citizen pyramid? \nI'm not venting about the system here, nor about cars.. just about some (yes some) bikers.\nAnd please there is no need to beg for upvotes on fuckcars how old are you?",
">\n\nI bet your fat.",
">\n\nOf course I fart !",
">\n\nTo you yours and to mine mine; I hate car users and their ilk who are filled with wonton waste and hate for all else who dare travel near them. I stop at all lights, halt for all signs, use a mirror, lights, and hand signals, pull over for cars coming my way so long as there is any room, and use what little biking infrastructure is available to me.\nMy taxes are waste and paid in folly for they assuredly go in portion to your reckless use of a powerful machine and not to my own reckless use of a small self-propelled stick on two wheels to separate lanes and keep them maintained. No, no, I must settle for the gutter and cry glee for that and be ashamed to move to the sidewalk when it suddenly ends and continues a block later down the road. \nFuck your car, your roads, and your selfish desire to pave the world and create cities with 60% of their coverage dedicated to driving a car, parking a car, and separating the world into places for cars and otherwise. You who drive faster and faster, in bigger and bigger cars. I loath you as you loath mine.",
">\n\nI wouldn’t hate cyclists if they didn’t act like road laws don’t apply to em in the city where I live. I’ve seen cyclists not even stop at red lights even with an almost full intersection, and ride the wrong way down one ways.\nEdit: I do wish the city where I live had more bike lanes but yeah.",
">\n\nIf you're going to hate someone, maybe hate the people actually doing those things.\nIf I see someone on a bike rush through a short break on a red light in an otherwise busy intersection, I shake my head and think they are an idiot. I think this while waiting for the light to turn green on my bike.\nSimilarly, when a car illegally stops in a bike lane (which happens ALL THE TIME by the way), I don't turn around and blame the cars moving along legally in the adjacent lane.",
">\n\nPedestrian are the worst.\nWhen i started using bicicle I was very polite: brake, ring, ask for permission. And what the large amount of people do? Ignore u, watch u in the eyes and take a step in the fucking middle of the trail (many many times! for real!), shout at you just because u exist. So.... At some point is fuck you all, I'm coming go out of the way. That's it",
">\n\n\nI will never drive nor park on a bike lane, always look into the mirror to be careful of one of you monkeys. So why can't you be careful when us peasants are walking?\n\nThis is dumb. Obviously there are plenty of cyclists who are careful and courteous about your safety. That's part of what a bell or \"watch out!\" (generally \"On your left\") is doing for you. And just because you are courteous to them doesn't mean everyone is. Is every driver a douchebag just because some of them crowd cyclists when and where the cyclist has the right to the road? No.",
">\n\nThe difference here is that generally car drivers are going to be held accountable for bad driving. This is in the form of dash cams, ANPR and red light cameras which catch drivers doing bad things and they can receive a fine or points on their licence. Cyclists currently can't be held accountable if they jump red lights or hit a car or pedestrian as there isn't anything that helps identify them. This is a big issue in cities. I live and work in London and see many cyclists jumping red lights and weaving around pedestrians crossing. Cars can't do this as most traffic lights have red light cameras that would catch this.\nDrivers as a collective (including me) are in no way perfect or even held to account 100% of the time, but I believe we need a system for cyclists to be held accountable too",
">\n\nYour way of thinking, while perfectly rational and natural, is outdated. Traffic law enforcement, like any other law enforcement, is less about the enforcement, and more about the prevention. Where I live, speed and red light cameras are clearly marked ahead so that the people who'd normally break the law follow it instead, making punishment unnecessary. \nSame could be done with cyclists. Sure, you could make every cyclist install a license plate, require a \"cycling license\", or install expensive cameras with facial identification software, but how about just make it so cyclists aren't incentivised to break the law in the first place? \nMake more useful cycling infrastructure, and more cyclists will use it. Make that infrastructure intersect with foot and motor traffic more safely and less often, and less collisions will happen.",
">\n\nI completely understand your point. However, a lot of money has gone into my local area for cycling infrastructure that most cyclists are using, but many are still choosing to break the rules as the rules are inconvenient. The infrastructure is not enough, there needs to be an incentive NOT to break the rules.\nIf you take a look at Chiswick High Road in London, England. They have created segregated cycle lanes from the traffic. These cycle lanes have their own lights and crossings to keep them safe from cars. However many cyclists just ignore the lights and just keep going into pedestrians. There is no punishment for them doing this as they can't be tracked. Personally I think every cyclist should have to register their bike (make it free to help encourage this) and then a new form of ANPR used to also catch cyclists in the act",
">\n\nPersonally I'd have no problem registering my bike for free, especially if I could use that same registration if it gets stolen, but registering something as mechanically simple and cheap as a bicycle is, in my opinion difficult if not impossible to do without making the bike mechanically complex and expensive, at which point most people would just switch to scooters.\nI don't live in London, but from what I've heard, by far the biggest threat in the city is still motorized traffic, namely cars and lorries, and so until that problem is no longer a problem, I wouldn't really do anything special about bikes. Maybe put some undercover bike cops near the most dangerous bike path/lane intersections to catch a few offenders and make an example out of them, but that's about it.",
">\n\nMost cars I’ve driven came equipped with brakes and a steering wheel. I don’t see the problem",
">\n\nA common take and a stupid one.\nThere are good and bad drivers, pedestrians, and cyclists. Hating any of them as a group because some of them do bad things is just dumb.",
">\n\nIf you followed the laws and stayed out of the bike lane as a pedestrian there would be no problem.",
">\n\nIf bicyclists followed the laws and stopped ignoring street signs/traffic lights there would be no problem.",
">\n\nDon’t see how this address the problem with pedestrians in bike lanes.",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Drivers pedestrians other cyclists. They're a scourge.",
">\n\nEvery word of this is pure wisdom.",
">\n\nAs a car driver, I too hate cyclists.\nI don't care who has 'right of way'. I'm in a car, you're not. If we collide, regardless of fault, you're the one that dies.\nDo you really want to die on the hill that says \"i can bike on the rode b/c it's legal\"?\nI might be in jail, but you're still dead.\nBikes don't belong on public roads. Unless there's a bike lane - aka, a pathway designed specifically for bikers.\nIt's FAR SAFER to bike on the sidewalk.",
">\n\nBe careful you’ll anger r/fuckcars",
">\n\nI recently got a bike in Japan and there isn't any room on the street to ride my bike. Most people are fine when I'm on the sidewalk, however, the worst ones are groups of 2 or more who try and take up as much space as possible allowing nobody to pass. Same with the people who constantly switch between the left and right side of the sidewalk. It's really annoying to see how little spacial awareness they have.",
">\n\nCyclists on the road don’t have to pass the same test as vehicles on the road, which is why they are so bad. If there was a test in order to cycle on the road then i think it would be alot better",
">\n\nWhy do you hate all cyclists when only some of them are rude/dangerous?",
">\n\nCope hehe",
">\n\nIt's the powered vehicles that kill most pedestrians.\nBut, sure, cyclists blahblah...",
">\n\nAs an occasional cyclist, I don't like you either.",
">\n\nI biked everywhere.....when I was a child. I'm an adult now and have an automobile. They are pretty neat.",
">\n\nWhen I used to have to walk to work I’d walk on the sidewalk and listen to music and one time this guy zipped right by me yelling almost knocking me over and flipped me off?? They act like they don’t have breaks lmao",
">\n\nholy smokes! glad you're ok",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Even cyclists.",
">\n\nAnd here i thought why the f pediatrician hate cyclists",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Even other cyclists.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist this thread is hilarious",
">\n\nAnyone got recommendations for how to be a nice, considerate cyclist besides being careful and non-entitled? I plan on starting when it gets warm outside.",
">\n\nNot unpopular",
">\n\nWhen I drive to work, I obey most of the rules. I just can't drive on some roads. That would either kill me at some point or I'd slow down a whole 60 km/h lane that's packed with traffic. When riding on the sidewalk, I always stop or get off my bike if it gets too crowded or the sidewalk narrows. But when no one is around I just keep driving normally, just slower than usual. I try to stay alert at all times and let everyone pass because I know I'm wrong here.\nAt one point there is a one-way street I'm not allowed to drive on, but as my alternatives are the same 60km/h road (but now also with rails) or a crowded sidewalk, I prefer the one-way street with maybe 4 cars per hour that I can easily avoid. After that there is finally a bike path until I get to work. There would be a legal route, but it would take twice, if not triple, the time.\nI also hate reckless cyclists. They have already endangered me and are often unfriendly assholes. I just don't have a death wish and don't want to drive a route in an hour if 20 minutes are possible in a safe way (If the brain gets used).",
">\n\nCyclists don’t care because unless they get injured there are no real consequences for their actions.\nI think that any vehicle, with or without any type of motor, should require a license to operate on a public roadway. Road legal bikes need to be held to quality standards, like cars, and should also be registered. If you wish to ride one on a public roadway it should have a number plate on it. You should have to pass a rider’s ed course proving that you know the rules of the road. There should be a test proving that you can control the vehicle and operate it safely, same as a car or motorcycle.",
">\n\nYeah I’ve nearly been run over from behind by cyclists on sidewalks too many times",
">\n\nIdk maybe my town is weird like everwhere on the internet and even in statistics you hear stuff like that but then I haven't really seen any cyclists run red lights ever and as someone who maybe not often but sometimes cycles, the last thing I'd do as a cyclist is run a red light like I don't wanna die?",
">\n\nOnly people that like cyclist.. are probably just other cyclists.",
">\n\nI don’t mind normal, law-abiding cyclists at all. I just despise the ones that think they can choose whether to act like a car or pedestrian whenever they feel like it. Or worse, they don’t know the actual laws but think they are special just because they are riding a bike.",
">\n\nSometimes I feel like I am the only one watching out for pedestrians. For example when there's a crosswalk coming up that goes over the bike path and there's someone waiting, I always yield and the person waiting is often surprised since most people on bicycles just carry on. So not all cyclists are like that.",
">\n\nAs a pedestrian, cyclist and driver, I hate taxis.",
">\n\nI once almost got hit by a cyclist who failed to stop at a stop sign",
">\n\nCyclist have it both ways which isn’t fair. They can drive on the road AND the sidewalk and use pedestrian crossings when they feel like it. It’s like they have no road rules once on a bike. \nOn the sidewalk I have to get outta the way? No bikeperson. You shouldn’t even be on the sidewalk in the first place! Maybe if you’re under 10 but otherwise drive your vehicle on the road like all other adults!",
">\n\nI knew a cyclist who would always talk shit about cars. He told me he’s been hit TEN TIMES. UMMM?? If you’ve been hit ten times then it’s not the cars fault…",
">\n\nYou must be from New York lol fuck the cyclists up there",
">\n\nAmen brother",
">\n\nLol. Everyone talks like this. No one likes cyclists. \nExcept me. I legit find it hilarious when they fuck with cars and even pedestrians. I saw a cyclist slap a pedestrian staring at their phone in the middle of the road 2 days ago. Cyclist warned him multiple times so cyclist open palmed him as he passed. Fucking hilarious.",
">\n\nYeah hitting people out of anger rather than doing the right thing is so funny",
">\n\nA stick in the spokes will solve the issue of a rude cyclist. \nA joisting pole will solve the issue of rude pedestrians. \nI look forward to the news",
">\n\nHow about the fact you ring your bell or yell “Excuse me coming through” as a cyclist and people are on their phone or slide in that AirPod more securely into their ear? \nPedestrians suck."
] |
>
As a cyclist, I hate pedestrians.
|
[
"I road cycled for years, I always followed the street rules. Always. Red light means red light. \nI have so many cycling friends who get into accidents and other conflicts with drivers, and yet they think it’s stupid to stop at a red light. They just don’t connect these two things",
">\n\nMost bikers I encounter are complete idiots. Like I'd be driving normally and out of nowhere comes a biker on a crosswalk in full speed. Now, I appreciate bikers who actually stop and make eye contact with me as I'm driving towards the crosswalk but man, it's either that or the biker almost dies because I have no time to brake.\nAnd what's up with all the bikers going like 5 kmh IN THE MIDDLE of a road when there's a dedicated sidewalk for bikers right next to them? Drives me insane.",
">\n\nIt seems like most bikers because of observation bias.\nIf you follow the rules as you should, you’re unmemorable.\nAs for the sidewalks - its actually less safe on the sidewalk.",
">\n\nInteresting. Dangerous situations are more valuable to remember, and I remember tons of irresponsible bikers. It is in fact observation bias. But I'm always happy to see those who pay close attention to traffic, and I do remeber some of them aswell.",
">\n\nWell the same goes for driving. How many cars do you remember when they haven’t done anything? But you tend to remember the ones who do something dumb",
">\n\nYeah it can be applied to anything really.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist in one of the most bike-dense cities in the world, I hate cyclists too. If I could avoid getting myself hurt, I’d be ramming at least ten of them a day just to teach a lesson about ignoring rules and common sense.",
">\n\nAmsterdam? Copenhagen?",
">\n\nCopenhagen. It’s a wonderful bike city but the people are incredibly self-centered.",
">\n\nI had high expectations from cyclists when I first visited the city, after all it is heralded as a cycling paradise and, well, let’s say it looked a lot more like the rest of the world and mainly because of the personal behavior of cyclists.\nMy local friend justified it, stating that it’s because danish are more temperamental than all other Scandinavians: an explanation that I really didn’t know what to do with…",
">\n\nIf “temperamental” means “a bunch of egotistical [insert unflattering body part]”, he’s right.",
">\n\nYou make it sound like a war zone. I live in Copenhagen and most of the time biking around the city is very pleasant. Except for the food delivery scooters, they can 🤬 off.",
">\n\nI guess it depends on how often and where you’re going. If you have places to be each and every day and want to get there effectively, people ignoring general rules and courtesies of the road are a pain. If you’re one of the types listening to podcasts with a latte in one hand and a phone in the other just trudging along, it’s probably fine.",
">\n\nSame! I love walking. Where I live on popular trails, there are bike lanes, but the cyclists will just ride wherever they. They don’t care and won’t let you know they’re coming. They’ll get pissy if you don’t just automatically know they’re coming up from behind you. If you do much as step foot in the bike lane, they get mad, but have no problems riding side by side outside the bike lane.",
">\n\nSame here! So much for my pleasant walk on the beautiful Trail. They sneak up and when they're almost on top of me, a loud voice yells \"On your left!\" They startle the shit out of me and cause me to jump sky high! 😡",
">\n\nIt’s literally the law to say that. This thread is all about hating them no matter if they follow the law or not.",
">\n\nIs it possible to do that without sneaking up on them and startling the shit out of them by yelling real loud? And then cutting is close to them as you possibly can without hitting them?",
">\n\nHello. \nMy useless comment to this post is here :D\nSo, i work in the accidents department of a big insurance company. My country is very strickt about the road rules, meaning:\nOur company estimates (is this the right word?) that around 82% of accidents involving cyclists, are to blame on the cyclist. Since there are expecific places on the road for you to ride your bike, even if it's not a bike lane.\nI remember a case where 3 dudes were just cycling, outside of town and they were literally on the middle of the road. the place where they were is full of curves and has very little visibility, so they were riding side by side, middle of the road, comes a car, hits not one, but the 3 of them because they scared the person and she just swerved the car.\nThey sued her and us (insurance) 2 times. Lost both and had to pay for all damage done on the car by their own bodys",
">\n\nThis sounds like something that happened near by my home town, are you in Ontario?",
">\n\nno XD portugal",
">\n\nGod its so much worse that it's happened in multiple places.\nIn ours I think the driver killed one of the cyclists, then sued the family for emotional damage",
">\n\nMy biggest gripe about cyclists is that there is always some danger when you encounter them on the road, either as a pedestrian or motorist. Now, part of it isn’t their fault. At least here in the US, not much of the infrastructure is made for bicycles. But cyclists are constantly breaking the rules of the road (or sidewalk) to get where they’re going faster. Blowing red lights, leaving the bike lane to use the sidewalk, splitting lanes. I always clench a little when I approach one, wondering if this is the day I can’t get out of the way.",
">\n\nWe have that same problem, but then a million times worse, because I live in The Netherlands. You probably know about our proud cycling culture (the Amsterdam stereotype). And yes, cyclists here are just as bad as the ones you describe, but there’s a lot more of them here. And oh yeah, traffic laws are almost always in their favor.",
">\n\nI found driving in the towns of the Netherlands so hard. Not just because I was on the wrong side of the road 😉 but because I just wasn’t used to sooo many cyclists coming from all directions, always faster than me and passing on both sides. Even as I was signalling to leave a roundabout at one point about three cyclists rode past on the inside. I really struggled to keep up with them all, which of course means I drove slower and thus even more bikes passed me!",
">\n\nYes that is of course very difficult, however as a Dutchman I’m used to cyclists, so of course we struggle a lot less. But that doesn’t take away from the fact that cyclists do cause a lot of issues because of their careless behavior, and because as drivers we have to accommodate them. That one sided ‘deal’ that we have makes it very difficult to deal with them.\nAll in all I’m happy we have so many cyclists as it’s good for the environment. But the utopian mindset of cyclists being a gift to the world is just stupid. Especially when you consider that mostly Americans who drive on wide open roads with barely any cyclists around are the ones praising cyclists in my country all the time. Also, cyclists annoy the hell out of pedestrians as well, so it’s not just about motorists.",
">\n\nCyclists treat red lights like stop signs and stop signs like yield signs (at best). They’re not allowed on sidewalks but do it anyway. Fuckin hate cyclists.",
">\n\nEverything you said is completely legal in Denver and sidewalks are illegal , but drivers constantly scream at cyclists to ride there",
">\n\nCyclist can roll stop signs and run red lights in Denver? What the fuck?",
">\n\nI’d have no problem if cyclist had respect for other road users. where I live there are cycle lanes, but most cyclists are on the road or pavements, they ignore red lights etc. \nIf you want to cycle please make it’s safe for yourself and others around you.",
">\n\nExactly my thoughts",
">\n\nHonestly, selfish assholes exist everywhere but a selfish asshole on a bicycle does a lot less damage than a selfish asshole in a car. \nEDIT: OP's also downvoting everyone who disagrees with him, just fyi.",
">\n\nAs a pedestrian, I hate everyone who's not a pedestrian... And some pedestrians too.",
">\n\nThere's a reason so many cyclists die each year, they all seem to pick and choose which laws they want to follow. Its always safer to assume they'll do whatever they want and everyone else needs to adapt to them.",
">\n\nAs a driver downtown, I don't worry at all about pedestrians at intersections, I can turn my head and assume they will be maybe five feet closer to my car when I look back, (and I trust they won't sprint towards me when I look away, at their own peril), but bikes, they ride so fast, that in the short time I turn my head to check for oncoming traffic, a bike could materialize right beside / infront me, and I risk hitting them or them hitting the side of my car. And that's even in their designated bike lane, that I have to pass through to clear the intersection. And if I drive into a ped at three miles per hour, they will just hit my hood with their fist and call me a stupid motherfucker, or whatever makes them feel justice was served, but if I bump the bike, it will be a big crash, the bicyclist will be all curled up in a ball on the ground, I'll be the bad guy in the eyes of the law and anyone nearby, and I'll probably be late as fuck to wherever it is I'm trying to go to.",
">\n\nI skateboard so I guess I'm good",
">\n\nJust don’t inconvenience narcissistic car drivers by a few seconds.",
">\n\nI think everyone hates cyclists. Cyclists included.",
">\n\nAs a driver, I hate you both",
">\n\nPedestrians are literally the worst. Anyone who has to walk more than 20 feet a day and not to their car are complete losers, and should be jailed on site.",
">\n\nOK, I think that's a bit extreme. But hey, if you're running for public office I'll vote for you. \nI do have to wonder anytime I see someone that I know has the mental faculties to drive who is walking. Usually assume too many DUI's.",
">\n\nr/fuckcars ripping out their hair rn",
">\n\nNot unpopular.\n Everyone hates cyclists.",
">\n\nI casually cycle in the summer. If I'm on a trail, I'll slow down and ring my bell if I see pedestrians, or stop and dismount if there's a lot of people or they don't notice me. Especially on the narrow trails in this woodlot I sometimes go to. \nThe problem is a lot of cyclists, especially in North America, but perhaps other places, just aren't respectful of others. They demand car drivers \"share the road\", but then ride in huge packs, lane split, don't signal turns, run stop signs and red lights, weave in and out of traffic, boot up busy sidewalks at 15-20mph, refuse to use provided bike lanes, etc. There's like a gross sense of entitlement in the cycling community. Dude, you're still a vehicle. There's rules that apply to you, just like there are for cars and motorcycles. Big problem is difficulty/lack of enforcement. Cops have to catch them in the act. Even then they're slippery devils since they're usually more mobile than a cruiser or beat cop on foot. This is why I support plating bikes to make them easily identifiable.",
">\n\n\nThere's like a gross sense of entitlement in the cycling community. Dude, you're still a vehicle. There's rules that apply to you, just like there are for cars and motorcycles.\n\nThat is the problem right there. They want to be treated equal to car owners, yet they do not abide by traffic rules, hence all the accidents.",
">\n\nAs a driver, I concur.",
">\n\nI hate bikers on trails. They're supposed to stop and let hikers by but they never do. They go by so freakin' fast too. It's like come on now!",
">\n\nAs a mostly former cyclist, I often hated cyclists too. Mostly, because so many cyclist are just competitive asshats that suck the pleasure out of their own bike ride by making everything about speed. Like, heaven forbid they have to slow and yield to anyone.\nOnce, I was riding my bicycle with my young daughter on a bike path in the city. A couple cyclist came up and got all pissy at us, saying we need to be out of the cycle lane because we were going too slow and my 8 year old kid wasn't keeping to a narrow lane. It was so hostile - my kid started crying.\nBut that is just so typical, all the time. I've gotten yelled out a few times when I made a full, foot down stop at a redlight because the cyclist behind me was expecting me to either run the redlight or at least go into the crosswalk and dance around (like they do) until it went green. I remember nearly getting run over by cyclists all the time, and yelled at if I was going too slow.\nThat being said, we need to do 100,000 x more in the US towards making bike paths, protected bike lanes, etc., because cyling is a truly great way to get around and I miss it. I just don't miss the self-centered asshats that dominate the cycling community.",
">\n\nThis!",
">\n\nI’ve nothing against cyclists as a group. I prefer to hate all people who do stupid things whether they’re in cars, on bikes or walking. Went to pick my daughter up tonight and counted six cyclists in the dark wearing all black with no lights at all plus one with a light so weak I didn’t see it until I was nearly past him. Tonight it was dumb cyclists, but tomorrow it might be idiots in cars. Hate the idiots not the method of transportation.",
">\n\nTrue !",
">\n\nOMG YES !! I completely agree. Every time i tried to explain this to a friend, they would always look at me like I am crazy for thinking such a thing. But as I walk for 45 minutes every days, it became a reality you can't ignore... I can't count how many times I nearly got hit by a cyclist, it happens every other week. I am starting to think that cyclists should have to go through a \"course\" to learn the basics of using the streets x)\n(Sorry for mistakes, not native here 'x) )",
">\n\nThis is my story lol..",
">\n\nYes, and it also is my personal experience, which is why I posted this..?",
">\n\nYes I totally agree. Just saying \"that's my life\" :) happening in Brussels tho",
">\n\nMy bad x) welp France here, it amazes me in a really bad way how this seems to be such a common phenomenon literaly EVERYWHERE",
">\n\nJ'ai roulé en vélo à Paris et laisse tomber l'enfer que c'était. J'avais l'impression d'avancer avec des oies qui insultaient tout le monde. BAa bAAA BAaaAa !!! \nLe problème c'est que plus les gens sont stressés (même les piétons... Genre dans le metro) plus ils se haïssent et ce matin j'avais la haine sur les vélos.. en vrai j'ai la haine sur tous les citadins haha",
">\n\nas a cyclist I hate everyone",
">\n\nSame, I see posts like this where people tell us to ride on the sidewalk when it’s illegal. \nThey assume we don’t walk anywhere, drive, etc like we are essentially subhuman for doing exercise.\nThey tell us to ride closer to the right side of the road so we get hit by a car door. \nThey’re mad that we give a verbal signal that we’re coming up on the left even though that’s the law. \nnow that I’m in Colorado I’m getting yelled at for the Idaho stop, which is completely legal. We yield to stop signs and temporarily stop at red light only till it’s clear. It’s all to REDUCE CAR TRAFFIC.\nSo far I’ve had family members die from hit and runs and drunk drivers, but somehow cyclists are the most dangerous thing on the road today.\nWhat is this really about?",
">\n\nI loathe cyclists. Selfish, entitled lycra lunatics.",
">\n\nBe honest, do you realize that it's possible to ride a bicycle and not be selfish, or entitled, or a lunatic, or not wear lycra?",
">\n\nThis thread is such a circlejerk, it's ridiculous.",
">\n\nThat's what I'm here for",
">\n\nIt's because cycling isn't regulated like motor vehicles are but they still get on the roads unlike pedestrians. So they don't have knowledge on the rules of the road that drivers have.\nThere's also some sort of hypocrisy they have where they believe drivers should give way to them because bikes are more vulnerable than cars while expecting pedestrians to give way to them because they're moving faster.",
">\n\n\nSo they don't have knowledge on the rules of the road\n\nPlenty do. Many cyclists also are automobilists. They just feel like they're exempted from respecting trafic rules because it's tiring to stop and go on a bike and they're slower an lighter than cars.",
">\n\nSure you got hit by a truck, but at least you managed to save yourself a little time and avoid waiting for a few seconds. Is what I'd say if they didn't then end up in the hospital",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists, as it should be.",
">\n\nCyclists shouldn’t be on sidewalks",
">\n\nI also cringe a lot when I see the international Reddit community constantly praise us Dutch people for our biking culture. People have no idea how many traffic accidents we get that could have been avoided if we didn’t have cyclists EVERYWHERE who are barely aware of the traffic rules that also apply to them.\nPeople have no idea about how cyclists are almost always right according to our traffic laws, which makes them much more reckless. They cause millions of dollars of damage to cars (and pedestrians) each year, and barely ever face consequences for their irresponsible and reckless behavior in traffic.\nPeople don’t see how cyclists often block traffic because they like to cycle next to each other in pairs, and if you honk they get angry and sometimes even aggressive and try to break your side mirror if they feel like it.\nMany intersections have bicycle lanes that you need to check when making a turn when driving, even though the intersection is already super busy with lots of cars. And guess what, cyclists still ride around fast and recklessly and making sure you don’t hit another car, cyclist AND pedestrian is all the job of one single driver.\nSo all in all, people from countries where driving is a relatively easy and chill thing to do, praise cycling culture in other countries. Try to drive here in busy traffic with thousands of cars AND (RECKLESS) CYCLISTS on the road and then tell me what it’s like.",
">\n\nIt would be much easier to sympathize with cars drivers if they did not need like 60% of the entire transit space leaving cyclists and pedestrians very little.\n\neven though the intersection is already super busy with lots of cars\n\nOfc, because cars are so large and need so much space.",
">\n\nI get that, but why is that my fault? I don’t do the city planning. Besides, cars are much larger than bicycles, so doesn’t it make sense there’s more space needed for cars than for bicycles?\nBut even then, if you don’t want to have any sympathy for motorists, because city planners give them more space than others, that’s just weird. It’s not the motorist’s fault.",
">\n\n\ndoesn’t it make sense there’s more space needed for cars than for bicycles?\n\nWhy a valuable and scarce resource such as the public space in cities should be used predominantly to benefit car users while barring everyone else? \nI just find it much harder to sympathize with the privileged group.",
">\n\nBecause people need to be able to go from A to B?",
">\n\nSo do pedestrians/public transport users/cyclists. But they don't require so much space per person.",
">\n\nWell in The Netherlands public transportation takes up an enormous amount of space and cyclists have their own dedicated lanes almost everywhere. Also motorists have to give public transportation space as we usually have to stop for trams and buses to pass, according to traffic rules. Guess who doesn’t often follow those rules: cyclists.\nHowever, public transportation itself is super busy and unbelievably expensive in The Netherlands. It costs more than 20 Euros to travel ~70 kilometers. That’s why a lot of people still prefer to have a car, and cars simply need infrastructure.\nSo I don’t really get your point. Cars, bicycles and public transportation all get a fair portion of the space that’s available.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist, i hate pedestrians. Here in Germany, there is bike lanes, one part for bikes and one for pedestrians on traffic lights... etc. But the pedestrians just ignore them, form \"walls\" of people blocking the bike lane, dont look while crossing the bike lane. Even cars repect us more than you.",
">\n\nThis I understand. Experienced the same in Denmark",
">\n\nClaaaaaarksoooooonnnnn",
">\n\nIdk about other places but here cyclists are constantly breaking the law and never getting ticketed for it. It makes no sense to me. I don’t think it’d make a huge difference but I do think some cyclists would think twice about disregarding the rules if those rules were actually enforced.",
">\n\nI get the sentiment. My feeling is the root cause is they don’t have their own infrastructure. Cars and peds do. So cyclists are always forced into a non ideal path. \nI’m aware they have rights to the road but cars and bikes really struggle to share an infrastructure clearly made for cars. \nSo if we invest in cycling infrastructure everyone would probably be happier.",
">\n\ndoubt it. In my city there is an asphalt bike path for miles that is like 8 feet wide. Smooth. No stop signs. Do they use it? nope they get their collective ass out on the street and I honestly don't have a clue why.\nIt defies logic. Safter, smooth, not cars/trunks, etc. Here they are out on the street just fiddle farting down a 45 mph road like they own it with a bike path 15 feet away with no one on it. The last guy I asked said \"It is my road as well you know\" that I ran up on while I was at a crossing while riding on the path myself. I just gave up trying to understand. Someone dies on that road every couple of months from bike or pedestrian strike with a vehicle. It was the whole reason they built the path....",
">\n\nWell in my experience there are 2 thing going on there.\na) Often bikers will avoid the path because peds often share or walk across those paths and their speed is closer to that of a car than a ped or \nb) If they are commuting...the path likely isn't going exactly where they need to.\nAs to your specific scenario I don't doubt there are bikers that are hard headed and stubborn. I know a few of those. But generally I do bikers using the infrastructure where we have built it.",
">\n\nThere's an accident here involving @ car running over a cyclist who crossed a red traffic light. And guess who take the blame?",
">\n\nLaughs in being dutch",
">\n\nIt is regrettable that a handful of asshole cyclists ruins everyone’s opinion of us. It really undermines the support needed to improve infrastructure for cycling. \nIf it is any help, when i ring my bell, I am doing so to avoid the alternatives of either yelling a warning or startling people. I normally exit the path and pass on the grass. I would say that most cyclist are the same. I don’t want you to get out of the way, I want you to know I am there. \nBut it only takes a couple assholes that think they own the path or the street. I have a cousin like this and it is difficult to convince him his is wrong and is putting himself and others in danger.",
">\n\nI think the a-holes are people that are only on a bike because it's the easiest thing for them, living where they do. You and those like you are on the bike because you love cycling.",
">\n\nI live in Portland, OR, and the cyclists here are so fucking rude and entitled.",
">\n\nI live in not-Portland OR and visited once. I biked down the road. Could not believe how nice everyone was to me. Probably because they could tell I’m an outsider.",
">\n\nI meant how they treat everyone else who isn't on a bike, tbh.",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists and it's for a simple reason. They think they can do whatever the hell they want. They switch between a pedestrian, a cyclist and a vehicle deciding on the fly whatever rules they feel like following with no accountability. \nOne minute they are skipping traffic, then they are deciding to cross at a crosswalk instead of following traffic. And the sidewalks are bike lanes if that's more convenient.",
">\n\nI just get annoyed because they will ride double wide on a tight street, forcing you to go 60mph in a 45, on the opposite side of traffic, risking a head on collision. And yea, you have to do that, because otherwise cars behind you will start driving aggressive as well as the fact that your expecting all the cars to go at a bikes speed on the road.",
">\n\nThat's because every country except for the Netherlands and Denmark have shit bicycle infrastructure.",
">\n\nI civilised countries we have cycling paths and cycling on the street is also possible as drivers aren't insane. So this seems rather like a problem of poor urban planning than cyclists in general.",
">\n\nWhere I live the cyclists just refuse to take the bikelane and either block the traffic because the rather use the street or they decide to use the pedestrian side of the sidewalk. The frickin bikelane is as big as the pedestrian one. There is no excuse not to use it and they still won't! One of them almost hit me if I hadn't dodge it. If the cyclist only drove a few inches to the left there would have been a bikelane and it wouldn't happened. Of course the person didn't apologize and just cursed at me.",
">\n\nBike gutters are awful and less safe than taking the lane. Assholes park in the bike lanes ALL THE TIME. Plus no one ever looks behind them when getting out pf their car so getting smacked by a door is a real danger. Drivers are entitled but it’s not their fault it’s the way we’ve built society to allow and expect them to be.\nETA: next time you’re driving around take a count how many people you see pulled over or parked in a bike gutter.",
">\n\nCompletely agree - I was ran over almost 3 times in Berlin. \nAnd every single time I checked before crossing - but they just suddenly spawned right in the way",
">\n\nDid you cross at a designated crosswalk? As a cyclist the amount of times people just randomly meander across an active street instead of going to the zebra/lollipop crossing, and then get angry at me when I have to swerve out the way/ brake is comical.",
">\n\nMan, y'all are sad people. \n\"Get off the road!\" Okay, now we are on the sidewalk. \n\"Get off the sidewalk!\" Back in the road again. \n\"They need to ring their bells so we know they're coming! Btw I hate it when they ring their bells so I know they're coming.\"",
">\n\nI hate cyclists like that. I don’t have a car so my bike is my main source of transportation and I don’t ride like that. So far, from what I’ve noticed in my area, I’m the only one that follows the damn rules in my city xD",
">\n\nNo matter where you are and who you are… driver or walker, scooter or flyer… we ALL hate cyclists.",
">\n\nI feel ya. The only thing I hate more than cyclists is electric scooters.",
">\n\nCompletely agree! A cycling license (similar to driving) should be required. Far too many cyclist who doesn’t know (and those who don’t just give a F) about traffic rules.",
">\n\nI completely agree! Cyclists have a lot of rights on the roads, and are very vocal about them, but think they can do whatever the fuck they want at roundabouts and pedestrian crossings.",
">\n\nIt just fascinates me how anyone can walk or drive through a city and genuinely think that bicycles are the problem. Look around you at every turn there are cars jamming the roads. Parked blocking things. Blocking pavements. Driving aggressively. Speeding. Failing to stop. Polluting the air. If they hit you, you are seriously injured or dead. This happens in the thousands. The city absolutely revolves around them.",
">\n\nYou are 100% right. Except I didn't say bicycles are the problem. I said i hate them. I said fuck cars too. I also said bicycles are one of the best alternative for trafic jam in cities.\nCities in Europe weren't made for cars nor bikes. So the problem is the fucking lazy greedy people who decide how to spend our tax money. The problem is people thinking they are all alone on the street. The problem is how stressed everybody is and how it become dangerous.\nNot because I hate how cyclists take revenge from drivers bullies to pedestrians makes me hate a transportation model itself.",
">\n\nIt just seems odd that people can really harp on about cyclists when they are such a trivial issue. Posts like this can get hundreds of replies. People tend to make excuses about cars.",
">\n\nYou just insulted a whole country.",
">\n\nThe Netherlands? It's ok",
">\n\nOk",
">\n\nI judge the actions of the individual not the mode of transport. I find it produces more accurate results.",
">\n\nApparently \"individuals alone are responsible for their own actions\" is the real unpopular opinion here.",
">\n\nIndeed 😀",
">\n\nAs a car driver I also hate cyclists. Saw one on a 45mph the other day despite there being a sidewalk AND a bikelane",
">\n\n45 mph isn't a speed for bike lane or sidewalk. Street is",
">\n\nas a cyclist, I hate pedestrians.\nMy city put in these nice protected bicycle lanes so bikes don't have to ride inches from cars, and boy don't those pedestrians just LOVE using the bike lane as a queuing up spot for the crosswalks. it's just so nice and convenient to get 5 more feet closer to your goal, isn't it? Those bicycles can stop and wait...and feel free to swear at them like THEY are the ones in the wrong.\nBicycles and pedestrians are natural enemies, that's never going to change. There can be only one.",
">\n\nLET'S END THIS NOW !!!!!",
">\n\nanyplace but Holy Ground.",
">\n\ndon't blame all bicyclists for the shitty ones.\nthat would be like saying every person who drives a car is an asshole. or every person who walks on the sidewalk is an asshole.\nsome people are good at getting around. other people are jerks. don't blame everyone for the actions of a small subset of people.",
">\n\nI mean, isn’t that the sentiment over that the popular sub r/fuckcars? The generalization is already being perpetuated from cyclists and “urbanists” in their war against cars.",
">\n\nNot really. That sub mostly hates the focus on cars when designing infrastructure, as well as the forced dependency on cars in our modern world. Not individual drivers.",
">\n\nSure about that? It’s mostly just a bitch-fest about driver errors to further their political agenda.",
">\n\nYea, I'm pretty sure.",
">\n\nReally weird way to get there if that’s the case. Alienating a large portion of the population (car drivers, car riders, people that depend on vehicles for the delivery of goods and services) is not how you get them on your side.",
">\n\nI don't think that's their goal in the first place. It's just a reddit sub.",
">\n\nEspecially when they have a stupid fucking bell and say \"on the left\" then proceed to be on the right side of the trail running into you",
">\n\nHahahha \"is he coming on the left or should i go on the lef...\" BANG!!",
">\n\nGF lives in a college town. It’s as if there’s some kinda fuckin’ death wish among the student cycling population",
">\n\nAs a [insert anyone, including cyclist], I hate cyclists.",
">\n\nPeople don't wanna hear it when it comes from automobilists because \"gngn cars are more dangerous and drivers are entitled\" but reality is cyclists are just the worst. Whether I'm on foot, driving a car, or riding a bicycle myself, cyclists are always always the ones being absolute public hazards. Heck, when I'm on my bike and stop at the stop sign on a cycle lane to let the cars go, they look at me as if I'm jesus or something. They even try to let me pass first because of how used they are to cyclists who just can't be bothered to respect the damn stop sign.",
">\n\nThe problem isn't the cyclists here, it's the lacking infrastructure.",
">\n\nWe shouldn't have to build infrastructure so people can partake in recreation. I find that comment extremely arrogant. Why on earth do cyclists deserve to have their recreation glorified and catered to??",
">\n\nRecreation? Ah yes, cycling is only for recreation.",
">\n\nWell, where I live that I'd the ONLY purpose. I'm 17 miles from any city municipality. Nobody is biking here to go to the grocery store or work.",
">\n\nNot everything is about you personally.",
">\n\nTo me, it is, and should be. My concern is around how cyclists inconvenience me while I'm trying to be a productive member of society. I feel like that's a fair critique.",
">\n\nYou are mad that cyclists inconvenience you yet you reject dedicated infrastructure as a solution. Do you think cyclists should be banned off the road completely?",
">\n\nThe real issue here is lacking cycling infrastructure.",
">\n\nDefinitely a major issue.\nBut part of the issue is definitely cyclists who prioritize their own speed over the safety and welfare of everyone around them. It's like they are all BMW drivers, deep down, and just don't want to yield to or slow down for anyone.",
">\n\nI'm sure there are, assholes exist in all vehicle types.",
">\n\nCyclists know thar neither the pavement nor the road are theirs because motorists and pedestrians like you are both screaming at them all the time. And I swear you'd be angrier if they didn't give a polite warning that they're coming toward you. \nCyclists who breeze through crossings instead of stopping are a minority, much like cyclists are a minority in general, and you can't judge an entire group that aren't adequately represented",
">\n\nFuck traveling in general",
">\n\nYa. Where are our transporters! \nSorry had to go full nerd.",
">\n\nI see posts like this constantly. It blows my mind people can just choose one thing that is so insignificant to scapegoat. \nThey assume people on bikes don’t also walk, drive, etc like we are essentially subhuman for doing exercise / running errands in this way because they are inconvenienced for a few seconds. You realize we are human like you , right?\nPeople tell us to ride bicycles on the sidewalk when it’s illegal while others say not too. It’s usually against the law.\nThey tell us to ride closer to the right side of the road , so we get hit by a car door and yelled at again. \nThey’re mad that we give a verbal signal that we’re coming up on the left even though that’s the law. \nNow that I’m in Colorado I’m getting yelled at for the Idaho stop, which is completely legal. We yield to stop signs and temporarily stop at red lights only if it’s clear. It’s all to REDUCE CAR TRAFFIC. \nKeep in mind we are riding bicycles which in its own right REDUCES CAR TRAFFIC. \n80% of car trips are within 3 miles from your house. Everyone that rides a bike keeps you from being stuck behind them in traffic for longer then the 20 seconds you’re currently inconvenienced. It’s also mean parking closer to the front door of a shop. \nSo far I’ve had family members die from hit and runs and drunk drivers, but somehow cyclists are the most dangerous thing on the road today?! It’s not adding up.\nWhat is this really about?",
">\n\nI'm sorry for your losses. I never said bikers are the most dangerous things on the road. Saying this would be stupid. The problem in my city is the lack of respect from cyclists to pedestrians in a general way. I'm not even talking about drivers against EVERYTHING ON THE STREET.",
">\n\nI go out of my way to be respectful to everybody, and I’ve had nothing but kindness and respect from other cyclists .\nYou wanna blame everybody on a bicycle for all your problems when it’s really just about a few people who disrespected you. \nCyclists are drivers, walkers, etc. do they just jump on a bicycle and instantly become disrespectful?\nStill doesn’t make any logical sense.",
">\n\nDude you just don't get it.. i understand biking is your life.. but come on.\nI use to bike 40km per day to work. \nI don't have problems with people jumping on bikes. I simply hate the ones that are disrespectful.\nIs it too hard to understand? Just me venting coz I feel like a lot of bikers think they are on top of the citizen pyramid? \nI'm not venting about the system here, nor about cars.. just about some (yes some) bikers.\nAnd please there is no need to beg for upvotes on fuckcars how old are you?",
">\n\nI bet your fat.",
">\n\nOf course I fart !",
">\n\nTo you yours and to mine mine; I hate car users and their ilk who are filled with wonton waste and hate for all else who dare travel near them. I stop at all lights, halt for all signs, use a mirror, lights, and hand signals, pull over for cars coming my way so long as there is any room, and use what little biking infrastructure is available to me.\nMy taxes are waste and paid in folly for they assuredly go in portion to your reckless use of a powerful machine and not to my own reckless use of a small self-propelled stick on two wheels to separate lanes and keep them maintained. No, no, I must settle for the gutter and cry glee for that and be ashamed to move to the sidewalk when it suddenly ends and continues a block later down the road. \nFuck your car, your roads, and your selfish desire to pave the world and create cities with 60% of their coverage dedicated to driving a car, parking a car, and separating the world into places for cars and otherwise. You who drive faster and faster, in bigger and bigger cars. I loath you as you loath mine.",
">\n\nI wouldn’t hate cyclists if they didn’t act like road laws don’t apply to em in the city where I live. I’ve seen cyclists not even stop at red lights even with an almost full intersection, and ride the wrong way down one ways.\nEdit: I do wish the city where I live had more bike lanes but yeah.",
">\n\nIf you're going to hate someone, maybe hate the people actually doing those things.\nIf I see someone on a bike rush through a short break on a red light in an otherwise busy intersection, I shake my head and think they are an idiot. I think this while waiting for the light to turn green on my bike.\nSimilarly, when a car illegally stops in a bike lane (which happens ALL THE TIME by the way), I don't turn around and blame the cars moving along legally in the adjacent lane.",
">\n\nPedestrian are the worst.\nWhen i started using bicicle I was very polite: brake, ring, ask for permission. And what the large amount of people do? Ignore u, watch u in the eyes and take a step in the fucking middle of the trail (many many times! for real!), shout at you just because u exist. So.... At some point is fuck you all, I'm coming go out of the way. That's it",
">\n\n\nI will never drive nor park on a bike lane, always look into the mirror to be careful of one of you monkeys. So why can't you be careful when us peasants are walking?\n\nThis is dumb. Obviously there are plenty of cyclists who are careful and courteous about your safety. That's part of what a bell or \"watch out!\" (generally \"On your left\") is doing for you. And just because you are courteous to them doesn't mean everyone is. Is every driver a douchebag just because some of them crowd cyclists when and where the cyclist has the right to the road? No.",
">\n\nThe difference here is that generally car drivers are going to be held accountable for bad driving. This is in the form of dash cams, ANPR and red light cameras which catch drivers doing bad things and they can receive a fine or points on their licence. Cyclists currently can't be held accountable if they jump red lights or hit a car or pedestrian as there isn't anything that helps identify them. This is a big issue in cities. I live and work in London and see many cyclists jumping red lights and weaving around pedestrians crossing. Cars can't do this as most traffic lights have red light cameras that would catch this.\nDrivers as a collective (including me) are in no way perfect or even held to account 100% of the time, but I believe we need a system for cyclists to be held accountable too",
">\n\nYour way of thinking, while perfectly rational and natural, is outdated. Traffic law enforcement, like any other law enforcement, is less about the enforcement, and more about the prevention. Where I live, speed and red light cameras are clearly marked ahead so that the people who'd normally break the law follow it instead, making punishment unnecessary. \nSame could be done with cyclists. Sure, you could make every cyclist install a license plate, require a \"cycling license\", or install expensive cameras with facial identification software, but how about just make it so cyclists aren't incentivised to break the law in the first place? \nMake more useful cycling infrastructure, and more cyclists will use it. Make that infrastructure intersect with foot and motor traffic more safely and less often, and less collisions will happen.",
">\n\nI completely understand your point. However, a lot of money has gone into my local area for cycling infrastructure that most cyclists are using, but many are still choosing to break the rules as the rules are inconvenient. The infrastructure is not enough, there needs to be an incentive NOT to break the rules.\nIf you take a look at Chiswick High Road in London, England. They have created segregated cycle lanes from the traffic. These cycle lanes have their own lights and crossings to keep them safe from cars. However many cyclists just ignore the lights and just keep going into pedestrians. There is no punishment for them doing this as they can't be tracked. Personally I think every cyclist should have to register their bike (make it free to help encourage this) and then a new form of ANPR used to also catch cyclists in the act",
">\n\nPersonally I'd have no problem registering my bike for free, especially if I could use that same registration if it gets stolen, but registering something as mechanically simple and cheap as a bicycle is, in my opinion difficult if not impossible to do without making the bike mechanically complex and expensive, at which point most people would just switch to scooters.\nI don't live in London, but from what I've heard, by far the biggest threat in the city is still motorized traffic, namely cars and lorries, and so until that problem is no longer a problem, I wouldn't really do anything special about bikes. Maybe put some undercover bike cops near the most dangerous bike path/lane intersections to catch a few offenders and make an example out of them, but that's about it.",
">\n\nMost cars I’ve driven came equipped with brakes and a steering wheel. I don’t see the problem",
">\n\nA common take and a stupid one.\nThere are good and bad drivers, pedestrians, and cyclists. Hating any of them as a group because some of them do bad things is just dumb.",
">\n\nIf you followed the laws and stayed out of the bike lane as a pedestrian there would be no problem.",
">\n\nIf bicyclists followed the laws and stopped ignoring street signs/traffic lights there would be no problem.",
">\n\nDon’t see how this address the problem with pedestrians in bike lanes.",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Drivers pedestrians other cyclists. They're a scourge.",
">\n\nEvery word of this is pure wisdom.",
">\n\nAs a car driver, I too hate cyclists.\nI don't care who has 'right of way'. I'm in a car, you're not. If we collide, regardless of fault, you're the one that dies.\nDo you really want to die on the hill that says \"i can bike on the rode b/c it's legal\"?\nI might be in jail, but you're still dead.\nBikes don't belong on public roads. Unless there's a bike lane - aka, a pathway designed specifically for bikers.\nIt's FAR SAFER to bike on the sidewalk.",
">\n\nBe careful you’ll anger r/fuckcars",
">\n\nI recently got a bike in Japan and there isn't any room on the street to ride my bike. Most people are fine when I'm on the sidewalk, however, the worst ones are groups of 2 or more who try and take up as much space as possible allowing nobody to pass. Same with the people who constantly switch between the left and right side of the sidewalk. It's really annoying to see how little spacial awareness they have.",
">\n\nCyclists on the road don’t have to pass the same test as vehicles on the road, which is why they are so bad. If there was a test in order to cycle on the road then i think it would be alot better",
">\n\nWhy do you hate all cyclists when only some of them are rude/dangerous?",
">\n\nCope hehe",
">\n\nIt's the powered vehicles that kill most pedestrians.\nBut, sure, cyclists blahblah...",
">\n\nAs an occasional cyclist, I don't like you either.",
">\n\nI biked everywhere.....when I was a child. I'm an adult now and have an automobile. They are pretty neat.",
">\n\nWhen I used to have to walk to work I’d walk on the sidewalk and listen to music and one time this guy zipped right by me yelling almost knocking me over and flipped me off?? They act like they don’t have breaks lmao",
">\n\nholy smokes! glad you're ok",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Even cyclists.",
">\n\nAnd here i thought why the f pediatrician hate cyclists",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Even other cyclists.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist this thread is hilarious",
">\n\nAnyone got recommendations for how to be a nice, considerate cyclist besides being careful and non-entitled? I plan on starting when it gets warm outside.",
">\n\nNot unpopular",
">\n\nWhen I drive to work, I obey most of the rules. I just can't drive on some roads. That would either kill me at some point or I'd slow down a whole 60 km/h lane that's packed with traffic. When riding on the sidewalk, I always stop or get off my bike if it gets too crowded or the sidewalk narrows. But when no one is around I just keep driving normally, just slower than usual. I try to stay alert at all times and let everyone pass because I know I'm wrong here.\nAt one point there is a one-way street I'm not allowed to drive on, but as my alternatives are the same 60km/h road (but now also with rails) or a crowded sidewalk, I prefer the one-way street with maybe 4 cars per hour that I can easily avoid. After that there is finally a bike path until I get to work. There would be a legal route, but it would take twice, if not triple, the time.\nI also hate reckless cyclists. They have already endangered me and are often unfriendly assholes. I just don't have a death wish and don't want to drive a route in an hour if 20 minutes are possible in a safe way (If the brain gets used).",
">\n\nCyclists don’t care because unless they get injured there are no real consequences for their actions.\nI think that any vehicle, with or without any type of motor, should require a license to operate on a public roadway. Road legal bikes need to be held to quality standards, like cars, and should also be registered. If you wish to ride one on a public roadway it should have a number plate on it. You should have to pass a rider’s ed course proving that you know the rules of the road. There should be a test proving that you can control the vehicle and operate it safely, same as a car or motorcycle.",
">\n\nYeah I’ve nearly been run over from behind by cyclists on sidewalks too many times",
">\n\nIdk maybe my town is weird like everwhere on the internet and even in statistics you hear stuff like that but then I haven't really seen any cyclists run red lights ever and as someone who maybe not often but sometimes cycles, the last thing I'd do as a cyclist is run a red light like I don't wanna die?",
">\n\nOnly people that like cyclist.. are probably just other cyclists.",
">\n\nI don’t mind normal, law-abiding cyclists at all. I just despise the ones that think they can choose whether to act like a car or pedestrian whenever they feel like it. Or worse, they don’t know the actual laws but think they are special just because they are riding a bike.",
">\n\nSometimes I feel like I am the only one watching out for pedestrians. For example when there's a crosswalk coming up that goes over the bike path and there's someone waiting, I always yield and the person waiting is often surprised since most people on bicycles just carry on. So not all cyclists are like that.",
">\n\nAs a pedestrian, cyclist and driver, I hate taxis.",
">\n\nI once almost got hit by a cyclist who failed to stop at a stop sign",
">\n\nCyclist have it both ways which isn’t fair. They can drive on the road AND the sidewalk and use pedestrian crossings when they feel like it. It’s like they have no road rules once on a bike. \nOn the sidewalk I have to get outta the way? No bikeperson. You shouldn’t even be on the sidewalk in the first place! Maybe if you’re under 10 but otherwise drive your vehicle on the road like all other adults!",
">\n\nI knew a cyclist who would always talk shit about cars. He told me he’s been hit TEN TIMES. UMMM?? If you’ve been hit ten times then it’s not the cars fault…",
">\n\nYou must be from New York lol fuck the cyclists up there",
">\n\nAmen brother",
">\n\nLol. Everyone talks like this. No one likes cyclists. \nExcept me. I legit find it hilarious when they fuck with cars and even pedestrians. I saw a cyclist slap a pedestrian staring at their phone in the middle of the road 2 days ago. Cyclist warned him multiple times so cyclist open palmed him as he passed. Fucking hilarious.",
">\n\nYeah hitting people out of anger rather than doing the right thing is so funny",
">\n\nA stick in the spokes will solve the issue of a rude cyclist. \nA joisting pole will solve the issue of rude pedestrians. \nI look forward to the news",
">\n\nHow about the fact you ring your bell or yell “Excuse me coming through” as a cyclist and people are on their phone or slide in that AirPod more securely into their ear? \nPedestrians suck.",
">\n\nI hate when people bike on busy roads. Unfortunately a girl near my home was killed on a busy highway cycling. The driver over corrected and hit her. No alcohol, texting, nothing. Now someone is dead and another has to live with overwhelming guilt the rest of their life"
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[
"I road cycled for years, I always followed the street rules. Always. Red light means red light. \nI have so many cycling friends who get into accidents and other conflicts with drivers, and yet they think it’s stupid to stop at a red light. They just don’t connect these two things",
">\n\nMost bikers I encounter are complete idiots. Like I'd be driving normally and out of nowhere comes a biker on a crosswalk in full speed. Now, I appreciate bikers who actually stop and make eye contact with me as I'm driving towards the crosswalk but man, it's either that or the biker almost dies because I have no time to brake.\nAnd what's up with all the bikers going like 5 kmh IN THE MIDDLE of a road when there's a dedicated sidewalk for bikers right next to them? Drives me insane.",
">\n\nIt seems like most bikers because of observation bias.\nIf you follow the rules as you should, you’re unmemorable.\nAs for the sidewalks - its actually less safe on the sidewalk.",
">\n\nInteresting. Dangerous situations are more valuable to remember, and I remember tons of irresponsible bikers. It is in fact observation bias. But I'm always happy to see those who pay close attention to traffic, and I do remeber some of them aswell.",
">\n\nWell the same goes for driving. How many cars do you remember when they haven’t done anything? But you tend to remember the ones who do something dumb",
">\n\nYeah it can be applied to anything really.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist in one of the most bike-dense cities in the world, I hate cyclists too. If I could avoid getting myself hurt, I’d be ramming at least ten of them a day just to teach a lesson about ignoring rules and common sense.",
">\n\nAmsterdam? Copenhagen?",
">\n\nCopenhagen. It’s a wonderful bike city but the people are incredibly self-centered.",
">\n\nI had high expectations from cyclists when I first visited the city, after all it is heralded as a cycling paradise and, well, let’s say it looked a lot more like the rest of the world and mainly because of the personal behavior of cyclists.\nMy local friend justified it, stating that it’s because danish are more temperamental than all other Scandinavians: an explanation that I really didn’t know what to do with…",
">\n\nIf “temperamental” means “a bunch of egotistical [insert unflattering body part]”, he’s right.",
">\n\nYou make it sound like a war zone. I live in Copenhagen and most of the time biking around the city is very pleasant. Except for the food delivery scooters, they can 🤬 off.",
">\n\nI guess it depends on how often and where you’re going. If you have places to be each and every day and want to get there effectively, people ignoring general rules and courtesies of the road are a pain. If you’re one of the types listening to podcasts with a latte in one hand and a phone in the other just trudging along, it’s probably fine.",
">\n\nSame! I love walking. Where I live on popular trails, there are bike lanes, but the cyclists will just ride wherever they. They don’t care and won’t let you know they’re coming. They’ll get pissy if you don’t just automatically know they’re coming up from behind you. If you do much as step foot in the bike lane, they get mad, but have no problems riding side by side outside the bike lane.",
">\n\nSame here! So much for my pleasant walk on the beautiful Trail. They sneak up and when they're almost on top of me, a loud voice yells \"On your left!\" They startle the shit out of me and cause me to jump sky high! 😡",
">\n\nIt’s literally the law to say that. This thread is all about hating them no matter if they follow the law or not.",
">\n\nIs it possible to do that without sneaking up on them and startling the shit out of them by yelling real loud? And then cutting is close to them as you possibly can without hitting them?",
">\n\nHello. \nMy useless comment to this post is here :D\nSo, i work in the accidents department of a big insurance company. My country is very strickt about the road rules, meaning:\nOur company estimates (is this the right word?) that around 82% of accidents involving cyclists, are to blame on the cyclist. Since there are expecific places on the road for you to ride your bike, even if it's not a bike lane.\nI remember a case where 3 dudes were just cycling, outside of town and they were literally on the middle of the road. the place where they were is full of curves and has very little visibility, so they were riding side by side, middle of the road, comes a car, hits not one, but the 3 of them because they scared the person and she just swerved the car.\nThey sued her and us (insurance) 2 times. Lost both and had to pay for all damage done on the car by their own bodys",
">\n\nThis sounds like something that happened near by my home town, are you in Ontario?",
">\n\nno XD portugal",
">\n\nGod its so much worse that it's happened in multiple places.\nIn ours I think the driver killed one of the cyclists, then sued the family for emotional damage",
">\n\nMy biggest gripe about cyclists is that there is always some danger when you encounter them on the road, either as a pedestrian or motorist. Now, part of it isn’t their fault. At least here in the US, not much of the infrastructure is made for bicycles. But cyclists are constantly breaking the rules of the road (or sidewalk) to get where they’re going faster. Blowing red lights, leaving the bike lane to use the sidewalk, splitting lanes. I always clench a little when I approach one, wondering if this is the day I can’t get out of the way.",
">\n\nWe have that same problem, but then a million times worse, because I live in The Netherlands. You probably know about our proud cycling culture (the Amsterdam stereotype). And yes, cyclists here are just as bad as the ones you describe, but there’s a lot more of them here. And oh yeah, traffic laws are almost always in their favor.",
">\n\nI found driving in the towns of the Netherlands so hard. Not just because I was on the wrong side of the road 😉 but because I just wasn’t used to sooo many cyclists coming from all directions, always faster than me and passing on both sides. Even as I was signalling to leave a roundabout at one point about three cyclists rode past on the inside. I really struggled to keep up with them all, which of course means I drove slower and thus even more bikes passed me!",
">\n\nYes that is of course very difficult, however as a Dutchman I’m used to cyclists, so of course we struggle a lot less. But that doesn’t take away from the fact that cyclists do cause a lot of issues because of their careless behavior, and because as drivers we have to accommodate them. That one sided ‘deal’ that we have makes it very difficult to deal with them.\nAll in all I’m happy we have so many cyclists as it’s good for the environment. But the utopian mindset of cyclists being a gift to the world is just stupid. Especially when you consider that mostly Americans who drive on wide open roads with barely any cyclists around are the ones praising cyclists in my country all the time. Also, cyclists annoy the hell out of pedestrians as well, so it’s not just about motorists.",
">\n\nCyclists treat red lights like stop signs and stop signs like yield signs (at best). They’re not allowed on sidewalks but do it anyway. Fuckin hate cyclists.",
">\n\nEverything you said is completely legal in Denver and sidewalks are illegal , but drivers constantly scream at cyclists to ride there",
">\n\nCyclist can roll stop signs and run red lights in Denver? What the fuck?",
">\n\nI’d have no problem if cyclist had respect for other road users. where I live there are cycle lanes, but most cyclists are on the road or pavements, they ignore red lights etc. \nIf you want to cycle please make it’s safe for yourself and others around you.",
">\n\nExactly my thoughts",
">\n\nHonestly, selfish assholes exist everywhere but a selfish asshole on a bicycle does a lot less damage than a selfish asshole in a car. \nEDIT: OP's also downvoting everyone who disagrees with him, just fyi.",
">\n\nAs a pedestrian, I hate everyone who's not a pedestrian... And some pedestrians too.",
">\n\nThere's a reason so many cyclists die each year, they all seem to pick and choose which laws they want to follow. Its always safer to assume they'll do whatever they want and everyone else needs to adapt to them.",
">\n\nAs a driver downtown, I don't worry at all about pedestrians at intersections, I can turn my head and assume they will be maybe five feet closer to my car when I look back, (and I trust they won't sprint towards me when I look away, at their own peril), but bikes, they ride so fast, that in the short time I turn my head to check for oncoming traffic, a bike could materialize right beside / infront me, and I risk hitting them or them hitting the side of my car. And that's even in their designated bike lane, that I have to pass through to clear the intersection. And if I drive into a ped at three miles per hour, they will just hit my hood with their fist and call me a stupid motherfucker, or whatever makes them feel justice was served, but if I bump the bike, it will be a big crash, the bicyclist will be all curled up in a ball on the ground, I'll be the bad guy in the eyes of the law and anyone nearby, and I'll probably be late as fuck to wherever it is I'm trying to go to.",
">\n\nI skateboard so I guess I'm good",
">\n\nJust don’t inconvenience narcissistic car drivers by a few seconds.",
">\n\nI think everyone hates cyclists. Cyclists included.",
">\n\nAs a driver, I hate you both",
">\n\nPedestrians are literally the worst. Anyone who has to walk more than 20 feet a day and not to their car are complete losers, and should be jailed on site.",
">\n\nOK, I think that's a bit extreme. But hey, if you're running for public office I'll vote for you. \nI do have to wonder anytime I see someone that I know has the mental faculties to drive who is walking. Usually assume too many DUI's.",
">\n\nr/fuckcars ripping out their hair rn",
">\n\nNot unpopular.\n Everyone hates cyclists.",
">\n\nI casually cycle in the summer. If I'm on a trail, I'll slow down and ring my bell if I see pedestrians, or stop and dismount if there's a lot of people or they don't notice me. Especially on the narrow trails in this woodlot I sometimes go to. \nThe problem is a lot of cyclists, especially in North America, but perhaps other places, just aren't respectful of others. They demand car drivers \"share the road\", but then ride in huge packs, lane split, don't signal turns, run stop signs and red lights, weave in and out of traffic, boot up busy sidewalks at 15-20mph, refuse to use provided bike lanes, etc. There's like a gross sense of entitlement in the cycling community. Dude, you're still a vehicle. There's rules that apply to you, just like there are for cars and motorcycles. Big problem is difficulty/lack of enforcement. Cops have to catch them in the act. Even then they're slippery devils since they're usually more mobile than a cruiser or beat cop on foot. This is why I support plating bikes to make them easily identifiable.",
">\n\n\nThere's like a gross sense of entitlement in the cycling community. Dude, you're still a vehicle. There's rules that apply to you, just like there are for cars and motorcycles.\n\nThat is the problem right there. They want to be treated equal to car owners, yet they do not abide by traffic rules, hence all the accidents.",
">\n\nAs a driver, I concur.",
">\n\nI hate bikers on trails. They're supposed to stop and let hikers by but they never do. They go by so freakin' fast too. It's like come on now!",
">\n\nAs a mostly former cyclist, I often hated cyclists too. Mostly, because so many cyclist are just competitive asshats that suck the pleasure out of their own bike ride by making everything about speed. Like, heaven forbid they have to slow and yield to anyone.\nOnce, I was riding my bicycle with my young daughter on a bike path in the city. A couple cyclist came up and got all pissy at us, saying we need to be out of the cycle lane because we were going too slow and my 8 year old kid wasn't keeping to a narrow lane. It was so hostile - my kid started crying.\nBut that is just so typical, all the time. I've gotten yelled out a few times when I made a full, foot down stop at a redlight because the cyclist behind me was expecting me to either run the redlight or at least go into the crosswalk and dance around (like they do) until it went green. I remember nearly getting run over by cyclists all the time, and yelled at if I was going too slow.\nThat being said, we need to do 100,000 x more in the US towards making bike paths, protected bike lanes, etc., because cyling is a truly great way to get around and I miss it. I just don't miss the self-centered asshats that dominate the cycling community.",
">\n\nThis!",
">\n\nI’ve nothing against cyclists as a group. I prefer to hate all people who do stupid things whether they’re in cars, on bikes or walking. Went to pick my daughter up tonight and counted six cyclists in the dark wearing all black with no lights at all plus one with a light so weak I didn’t see it until I was nearly past him. Tonight it was dumb cyclists, but tomorrow it might be idiots in cars. Hate the idiots not the method of transportation.",
">\n\nTrue !",
">\n\nOMG YES !! I completely agree. Every time i tried to explain this to a friend, they would always look at me like I am crazy for thinking such a thing. But as I walk for 45 minutes every days, it became a reality you can't ignore... I can't count how many times I nearly got hit by a cyclist, it happens every other week. I am starting to think that cyclists should have to go through a \"course\" to learn the basics of using the streets x)\n(Sorry for mistakes, not native here 'x) )",
">\n\nThis is my story lol..",
">\n\nYes, and it also is my personal experience, which is why I posted this..?",
">\n\nYes I totally agree. Just saying \"that's my life\" :) happening in Brussels tho",
">\n\nMy bad x) welp France here, it amazes me in a really bad way how this seems to be such a common phenomenon literaly EVERYWHERE",
">\n\nJ'ai roulé en vélo à Paris et laisse tomber l'enfer que c'était. J'avais l'impression d'avancer avec des oies qui insultaient tout le monde. BAa bAAA BAaaAa !!! \nLe problème c'est que plus les gens sont stressés (même les piétons... Genre dans le metro) plus ils se haïssent et ce matin j'avais la haine sur les vélos.. en vrai j'ai la haine sur tous les citadins haha",
">\n\nas a cyclist I hate everyone",
">\n\nSame, I see posts like this where people tell us to ride on the sidewalk when it’s illegal. \nThey assume we don’t walk anywhere, drive, etc like we are essentially subhuman for doing exercise.\nThey tell us to ride closer to the right side of the road so we get hit by a car door. \nThey’re mad that we give a verbal signal that we’re coming up on the left even though that’s the law. \nnow that I’m in Colorado I’m getting yelled at for the Idaho stop, which is completely legal. We yield to stop signs and temporarily stop at red light only till it’s clear. It’s all to REDUCE CAR TRAFFIC.\nSo far I’ve had family members die from hit and runs and drunk drivers, but somehow cyclists are the most dangerous thing on the road today.\nWhat is this really about?",
">\n\nI loathe cyclists. Selfish, entitled lycra lunatics.",
">\n\nBe honest, do you realize that it's possible to ride a bicycle and not be selfish, or entitled, or a lunatic, or not wear lycra?",
">\n\nThis thread is such a circlejerk, it's ridiculous.",
">\n\nThat's what I'm here for",
">\n\nIt's because cycling isn't regulated like motor vehicles are but they still get on the roads unlike pedestrians. So they don't have knowledge on the rules of the road that drivers have.\nThere's also some sort of hypocrisy they have where they believe drivers should give way to them because bikes are more vulnerable than cars while expecting pedestrians to give way to them because they're moving faster.",
">\n\n\nSo they don't have knowledge on the rules of the road\n\nPlenty do. Many cyclists also are automobilists. They just feel like they're exempted from respecting trafic rules because it's tiring to stop and go on a bike and they're slower an lighter than cars.",
">\n\nSure you got hit by a truck, but at least you managed to save yourself a little time and avoid waiting for a few seconds. Is what I'd say if they didn't then end up in the hospital",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists, as it should be.",
">\n\nCyclists shouldn’t be on sidewalks",
">\n\nI also cringe a lot when I see the international Reddit community constantly praise us Dutch people for our biking culture. People have no idea how many traffic accidents we get that could have been avoided if we didn’t have cyclists EVERYWHERE who are barely aware of the traffic rules that also apply to them.\nPeople have no idea about how cyclists are almost always right according to our traffic laws, which makes them much more reckless. They cause millions of dollars of damage to cars (and pedestrians) each year, and barely ever face consequences for their irresponsible and reckless behavior in traffic.\nPeople don’t see how cyclists often block traffic because they like to cycle next to each other in pairs, and if you honk they get angry and sometimes even aggressive and try to break your side mirror if they feel like it.\nMany intersections have bicycle lanes that you need to check when making a turn when driving, even though the intersection is already super busy with lots of cars. And guess what, cyclists still ride around fast and recklessly and making sure you don’t hit another car, cyclist AND pedestrian is all the job of one single driver.\nSo all in all, people from countries where driving is a relatively easy and chill thing to do, praise cycling culture in other countries. Try to drive here in busy traffic with thousands of cars AND (RECKLESS) CYCLISTS on the road and then tell me what it’s like.",
">\n\nIt would be much easier to sympathize with cars drivers if they did not need like 60% of the entire transit space leaving cyclists and pedestrians very little.\n\neven though the intersection is already super busy with lots of cars\n\nOfc, because cars are so large and need so much space.",
">\n\nI get that, but why is that my fault? I don’t do the city planning. Besides, cars are much larger than bicycles, so doesn’t it make sense there’s more space needed for cars than for bicycles?\nBut even then, if you don’t want to have any sympathy for motorists, because city planners give them more space than others, that’s just weird. It’s not the motorist’s fault.",
">\n\n\ndoesn’t it make sense there’s more space needed for cars than for bicycles?\n\nWhy a valuable and scarce resource such as the public space in cities should be used predominantly to benefit car users while barring everyone else? \nI just find it much harder to sympathize with the privileged group.",
">\n\nBecause people need to be able to go from A to B?",
">\n\nSo do pedestrians/public transport users/cyclists. But they don't require so much space per person.",
">\n\nWell in The Netherlands public transportation takes up an enormous amount of space and cyclists have their own dedicated lanes almost everywhere. Also motorists have to give public transportation space as we usually have to stop for trams and buses to pass, according to traffic rules. Guess who doesn’t often follow those rules: cyclists.\nHowever, public transportation itself is super busy and unbelievably expensive in The Netherlands. It costs more than 20 Euros to travel ~70 kilometers. That’s why a lot of people still prefer to have a car, and cars simply need infrastructure.\nSo I don’t really get your point. Cars, bicycles and public transportation all get a fair portion of the space that’s available.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist, i hate pedestrians. Here in Germany, there is bike lanes, one part for bikes and one for pedestrians on traffic lights... etc. But the pedestrians just ignore them, form \"walls\" of people blocking the bike lane, dont look while crossing the bike lane. Even cars repect us more than you.",
">\n\nThis I understand. Experienced the same in Denmark",
">\n\nClaaaaaarksoooooonnnnn",
">\n\nIdk about other places but here cyclists are constantly breaking the law and never getting ticketed for it. It makes no sense to me. I don’t think it’d make a huge difference but I do think some cyclists would think twice about disregarding the rules if those rules were actually enforced.",
">\n\nI get the sentiment. My feeling is the root cause is they don’t have their own infrastructure. Cars and peds do. So cyclists are always forced into a non ideal path. \nI’m aware they have rights to the road but cars and bikes really struggle to share an infrastructure clearly made for cars. \nSo if we invest in cycling infrastructure everyone would probably be happier.",
">\n\ndoubt it. In my city there is an asphalt bike path for miles that is like 8 feet wide. Smooth. No stop signs. Do they use it? nope they get their collective ass out on the street and I honestly don't have a clue why.\nIt defies logic. Safter, smooth, not cars/trunks, etc. Here they are out on the street just fiddle farting down a 45 mph road like they own it with a bike path 15 feet away with no one on it. The last guy I asked said \"It is my road as well you know\" that I ran up on while I was at a crossing while riding on the path myself. I just gave up trying to understand. Someone dies on that road every couple of months from bike or pedestrian strike with a vehicle. It was the whole reason they built the path....",
">\n\nWell in my experience there are 2 thing going on there.\na) Often bikers will avoid the path because peds often share or walk across those paths and their speed is closer to that of a car than a ped or \nb) If they are commuting...the path likely isn't going exactly where they need to.\nAs to your specific scenario I don't doubt there are bikers that are hard headed and stubborn. I know a few of those. But generally I do bikers using the infrastructure where we have built it.",
">\n\nThere's an accident here involving @ car running over a cyclist who crossed a red traffic light. And guess who take the blame?",
">\n\nLaughs in being dutch",
">\n\nIt is regrettable that a handful of asshole cyclists ruins everyone’s opinion of us. It really undermines the support needed to improve infrastructure for cycling. \nIf it is any help, when i ring my bell, I am doing so to avoid the alternatives of either yelling a warning or startling people. I normally exit the path and pass on the grass. I would say that most cyclist are the same. I don’t want you to get out of the way, I want you to know I am there. \nBut it only takes a couple assholes that think they own the path or the street. I have a cousin like this and it is difficult to convince him his is wrong and is putting himself and others in danger.",
">\n\nI think the a-holes are people that are only on a bike because it's the easiest thing for them, living where they do. You and those like you are on the bike because you love cycling.",
">\n\nI live in Portland, OR, and the cyclists here are so fucking rude and entitled.",
">\n\nI live in not-Portland OR and visited once. I biked down the road. Could not believe how nice everyone was to me. Probably because they could tell I’m an outsider.",
">\n\nI meant how they treat everyone else who isn't on a bike, tbh.",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists and it's for a simple reason. They think they can do whatever the hell they want. They switch between a pedestrian, a cyclist and a vehicle deciding on the fly whatever rules they feel like following with no accountability. \nOne minute they are skipping traffic, then they are deciding to cross at a crosswalk instead of following traffic. And the sidewalks are bike lanes if that's more convenient.",
">\n\nI just get annoyed because they will ride double wide on a tight street, forcing you to go 60mph in a 45, on the opposite side of traffic, risking a head on collision. And yea, you have to do that, because otherwise cars behind you will start driving aggressive as well as the fact that your expecting all the cars to go at a bikes speed on the road.",
">\n\nThat's because every country except for the Netherlands and Denmark have shit bicycle infrastructure.",
">\n\nI civilised countries we have cycling paths and cycling on the street is also possible as drivers aren't insane. So this seems rather like a problem of poor urban planning than cyclists in general.",
">\n\nWhere I live the cyclists just refuse to take the bikelane and either block the traffic because the rather use the street or they decide to use the pedestrian side of the sidewalk. The frickin bikelane is as big as the pedestrian one. There is no excuse not to use it and they still won't! One of them almost hit me if I hadn't dodge it. If the cyclist only drove a few inches to the left there would have been a bikelane and it wouldn't happened. Of course the person didn't apologize and just cursed at me.",
">\n\nBike gutters are awful and less safe than taking the lane. Assholes park in the bike lanes ALL THE TIME. Plus no one ever looks behind them when getting out pf their car so getting smacked by a door is a real danger. Drivers are entitled but it’s not their fault it’s the way we’ve built society to allow and expect them to be.\nETA: next time you’re driving around take a count how many people you see pulled over or parked in a bike gutter.",
">\n\nCompletely agree - I was ran over almost 3 times in Berlin. \nAnd every single time I checked before crossing - but they just suddenly spawned right in the way",
">\n\nDid you cross at a designated crosswalk? As a cyclist the amount of times people just randomly meander across an active street instead of going to the zebra/lollipop crossing, and then get angry at me when I have to swerve out the way/ brake is comical.",
">\n\nMan, y'all are sad people. \n\"Get off the road!\" Okay, now we are on the sidewalk. \n\"Get off the sidewalk!\" Back in the road again. \n\"They need to ring their bells so we know they're coming! Btw I hate it when they ring their bells so I know they're coming.\"",
">\n\nI hate cyclists like that. I don’t have a car so my bike is my main source of transportation and I don’t ride like that. So far, from what I’ve noticed in my area, I’m the only one that follows the damn rules in my city xD",
">\n\nNo matter where you are and who you are… driver or walker, scooter or flyer… we ALL hate cyclists.",
">\n\nI feel ya. The only thing I hate more than cyclists is electric scooters.",
">\n\nCompletely agree! A cycling license (similar to driving) should be required. Far too many cyclist who doesn’t know (and those who don’t just give a F) about traffic rules.",
">\n\nI completely agree! Cyclists have a lot of rights on the roads, and are very vocal about them, but think they can do whatever the fuck they want at roundabouts and pedestrian crossings.",
">\n\nIt just fascinates me how anyone can walk or drive through a city and genuinely think that bicycles are the problem. Look around you at every turn there are cars jamming the roads. Parked blocking things. Blocking pavements. Driving aggressively. Speeding. Failing to stop. Polluting the air. If they hit you, you are seriously injured or dead. This happens in the thousands. The city absolutely revolves around them.",
">\n\nYou are 100% right. Except I didn't say bicycles are the problem. I said i hate them. I said fuck cars too. I also said bicycles are one of the best alternative for trafic jam in cities.\nCities in Europe weren't made for cars nor bikes. So the problem is the fucking lazy greedy people who decide how to spend our tax money. The problem is people thinking they are all alone on the street. The problem is how stressed everybody is and how it become dangerous.\nNot because I hate how cyclists take revenge from drivers bullies to pedestrians makes me hate a transportation model itself.",
">\n\nIt just seems odd that people can really harp on about cyclists when they are such a trivial issue. Posts like this can get hundreds of replies. People tend to make excuses about cars.",
">\n\nYou just insulted a whole country.",
">\n\nThe Netherlands? It's ok",
">\n\nOk",
">\n\nI judge the actions of the individual not the mode of transport. I find it produces more accurate results.",
">\n\nApparently \"individuals alone are responsible for their own actions\" is the real unpopular opinion here.",
">\n\nIndeed 😀",
">\n\nAs a car driver I also hate cyclists. Saw one on a 45mph the other day despite there being a sidewalk AND a bikelane",
">\n\n45 mph isn't a speed for bike lane or sidewalk. Street is",
">\n\nas a cyclist, I hate pedestrians.\nMy city put in these nice protected bicycle lanes so bikes don't have to ride inches from cars, and boy don't those pedestrians just LOVE using the bike lane as a queuing up spot for the crosswalks. it's just so nice and convenient to get 5 more feet closer to your goal, isn't it? Those bicycles can stop and wait...and feel free to swear at them like THEY are the ones in the wrong.\nBicycles and pedestrians are natural enemies, that's never going to change. There can be only one.",
">\n\nLET'S END THIS NOW !!!!!",
">\n\nanyplace but Holy Ground.",
">\n\ndon't blame all bicyclists for the shitty ones.\nthat would be like saying every person who drives a car is an asshole. or every person who walks on the sidewalk is an asshole.\nsome people are good at getting around. other people are jerks. don't blame everyone for the actions of a small subset of people.",
">\n\nI mean, isn’t that the sentiment over that the popular sub r/fuckcars? The generalization is already being perpetuated from cyclists and “urbanists” in their war against cars.",
">\n\nNot really. That sub mostly hates the focus on cars when designing infrastructure, as well as the forced dependency on cars in our modern world. Not individual drivers.",
">\n\nSure about that? It’s mostly just a bitch-fest about driver errors to further their political agenda.",
">\n\nYea, I'm pretty sure.",
">\n\nReally weird way to get there if that’s the case. Alienating a large portion of the population (car drivers, car riders, people that depend on vehicles for the delivery of goods and services) is not how you get them on your side.",
">\n\nI don't think that's their goal in the first place. It's just a reddit sub.",
">\n\nEspecially when they have a stupid fucking bell and say \"on the left\" then proceed to be on the right side of the trail running into you",
">\n\nHahahha \"is he coming on the left or should i go on the lef...\" BANG!!",
">\n\nGF lives in a college town. It’s as if there’s some kinda fuckin’ death wish among the student cycling population",
">\n\nAs a [insert anyone, including cyclist], I hate cyclists.",
">\n\nPeople don't wanna hear it when it comes from automobilists because \"gngn cars are more dangerous and drivers are entitled\" but reality is cyclists are just the worst. Whether I'm on foot, driving a car, or riding a bicycle myself, cyclists are always always the ones being absolute public hazards. Heck, when I'm on my bike and stop at the stop sign on a cycle lane to let the cars go, they look at me as if I'm jesus or something. They even try to let me pass first because of how used they are to cyclists who just can't be bothered to respect the damn stop sign.",
">\n\nThe problem isn't the cyclists here, it's the lacking infrastructure.",
">\n\nWe shouldn't have to build infrastructure so people can partake in recreation. I find that comment extremely arrogant. Why on earth do cyclists deserve to have their recreation glorified and catered to??",
">\n\nRecreation? Ah yes, cycling is only for recreation.",
">\n\nWell, where I live that I'd the ONLY purpose. I'm 17 miles from any city municipality. Nobody is biking here to go to the grocery store or work.",
">\n\nNot everything is about you personally.",
">\n\nTo me, it is, and should be. My concern is around how cyclists inconvenience me while I'm trying to be a productive member of society. I feel like that's a fair critique.",
">\n\nYou are mad that cyclists inconvenience you yet you reject dedicated infrastructure as a solution. Do you think cyclists should be banned off the road completely?",
">\n\nThe real issue here is lacking cycling infrastructure.",
">\n\nDefinitely a major issue.\nBut part of the issue is definitely cyclists who prioritize their own speed over the safety and welfare of everyone around them. It's like they are all BMW drivers, deep down, and just don't want to yield to or slow down for anyone.",
">\n\nI'm sure there are, assholes exist in all vehicle types.",
">\n\nCyclists know thar neither the pavement nor the road are theirs because motorists and pedestrians like you are both screaming at them all the time. And I swear you'd be angrier if they didn't give a polite warning that they're coming toward you. \nCyclists who breeze through crossings instead of stopping are a minority, much like cyclists are a minority in general, and you can't judge an entire group that aren't adequately represented",
">\n\nFuck traveling in general",
">\n\nYa. Where are our transporters! \nSorry had to go full nerd.",
">\n\nI see posts like this constantly. It blows my mind people can just choose one thing that is so insignificant to scapegoat. \nThey assume people on bikes don’t also walk, drive, etc like we are essentially subhuman for doing exercise / running errands in this way because they are inconvenienced for a few seconds. You realize we are human like you , right?\nPeople tell us to ride bicycles on the sidewalk when it’s illegal while others say not too. It’s usually against the law.\nThey tell us to ride closer to the right side of the road , so we get hit by a car door and yelled at again. \nThey’re mad that we give a verbal signal that we’re coming up on the left even though that’s the law. \nNow that I’m in Colorado I’m getting yelled at for the Idaho stop, which is completely legal. We yield to stop signs and temporarily stop at red lights only if it’s clear. It’s all to REDUCE CAR TRAFFIC. \nKeep in mind we are riding bicycles which in its own right REDUCES CAR TRAFFIC. \n80% of car trips are within 3 miles from your house. Everyone that rides a bike keeps you from being stuck behind them in traffic for longer then the 20 seconds you’re currently inconvenienced. It’s also mean parking closer to the front door of a shop. \nSo far I’ve had family members die from hit and runs and drunk drivers, but somehow cyclists are the most dangerous thing on the road today?! It’s not adding up.\nWhat is this really about?",
">\n\nI'm sorry for your losses. I never said bikers are the most dangerous things on the road. Saying this would be stupid. The problem in my city is the lack of respect from cyclists to pedestrians in a general way. I'm not even talking about drivers against EVERYTHING ON THE STREET.",
">\n\nI go out of my way to be respectful to everybody, and I’ve had nothing but kindness and respect from other cyclists .\nYou wanna blame everybody on a bicycle for all your problems when it’s really just about a few people who disrespected you. \nCyclists are drivers, walkers, etc. do they just jump on a bicycle and instantly become disrespectful?\nStill doesn’t make any logical sense.",
">\n\nDude you just don't get it.. i understand biking is your life.. but come on.\nI use to bike 40km per day to work. \nI don't have problems with people jumping on bikes. I simply hate the ones that are disrespectful.\nIs it too hard to understand? Just me venting coz I feel like a lot of bikers think they are on top of the citizen pyramid? \nI'm not venting about the system here, nor about cars.. just about some (yes some) bikers.\nAnd please there is no need to beg for upvotes on fuckcars how old are you?",
">\n\nI bet your fat.",
">\n\nOf course I fart !",
">\n\nTo you yours and to mine mine; I hate car users and their ilk who are filled with wonton waste and hate for all else who dare travel near them. I stop at all lights, halt for all signs, use a mirror, lights, and hand signals, pull over for cars coming my way so long as there is any room, and use what little biking infrastructure is available to me.\nMy taxes are waste and paid in folly for they assuredly go in portion to your reckless use of a powerful machine and not to my own reckless use of a small self-propelled stick on two wheels to separate lanes and keep them maintained. No, no, I must settle for the gutter and cry glee for that and be ashamed to move to the sidewalk when it suddenly ends and continues a block later down the road. \nFuck your car, your roads, and your selfish desire to pave the world and create cities with 60% of their coverage dedicated to driving a car, parking a car, and separating the world into places for cars and otherwise. You who drive faster and faster, in bigger and bigger cars. I loath you as you loath mine.",
">\n\nI wouldn’t hate cyclists if they didn’t act like road laws don’t apply to em in the city where I live. I’ve seen cyclists not even stop at red lights even with an almost full intersection, and ride the wrong way down one ways.\nEdit: I do wish the city where I live had more bike lanes but yeah.",
">\n\nIf you're going to hate someone, maybe hate the people actually doing those things.\nIf I see someone on a bike rush through a short break on a red light in an otherwise busy intersection, I shake my head and think they are an idiot. I think this while waiting for the light to turn green on my bike.\nSimilarly, when a car illegally stops in a bike lane (which happens ALL THE TIME by the way), I don't turn around and blame the cars moving along legally in the adjacent lane.",
">\n\nPedestrian are the worst.\nWhen i started using bicicle I was very polite: brake, ring, ask for permission. And what the large amount of people do? Ignore u, watch u in the eyes and take a step in the fucking middle of the trail (many many times! for real!), shout at you just because u exist. So.... At some point is fuck you all, I'm coming go out of the way. That's it",
">\n\n\nI will never drive nor park on a bike lane, always look into the mirror to be careful of one of you monkeys. So why can't you be careful when us peasants are walking?\n\nThis is dumb. Obviously there are plenty of cyclists who are careful and courteous about your safety. That's part of what a bell or \"watch out!\" (generally \"On your left\") is doing for you. And just because you are courteous to them doesn't mean everyone is. Is every driver a douchebag just because some of them crowd cyclists when and where the cyclist has the right to the road? No.",
">\n\nThe difference here is that generally car drivers are going to be held accountable for bad driving. This is in the form of dash cams, ANPR and red light cameras which catch drivers doing bad things and they can receive a fine or points on their licence. Cyclists currently can't be held accountable if they jump red lights or hit a car or pedestrian as there isn't anything that helps identify them. This is a big issue in cities. I live and work in London and see many cyclists jumping red lights and weaving around pedestrians crossing. Cars can't do this as most traffic lights have red light cameras that would catch this.\nDrivers as a collective (including me) are in no way perfect or even held to account 100% of the time, but I believe we need a system for cyclists to be held accountable too",
">\n\nYour way of thinking, while perfectly rational and natural, is outdated. Traffic law enforcement, like any other law enforcement, is less about the enforcement, and more about the prevention. Where I live, speed and red light cameras are clearly marked ahead so that the people who'd normally break the law follow it instead, making punishment unnecessary. \nSame could be done with cyclists. Sure, you could make every cyclist install a license plate, require a \"cycling license\", or install expensive cameras with facial identification software, but how about just make it so cyclists aren't incentivised to break the law in the first place? \nMake more useful cycling infrastructure, and more cyclists will use it. Make that infrastructure intersect with foot and motor traffic more safely and less often, and less collisions will happen.",
">\n\nI completely understand your point. However, a lot of money has gone into my local area for cycling infrastructure that most cyclists are using, but many are still choosing to break the rules as the rules are inconvenient. The infrastructure is not enough, there needs to be an incentive NOT to break the rules.\nIf you take a look at Chiswick High Road in London, England. They have created segregated cycle lanes from the traffic. These cycle lanes have their own lights and crossings to keep them safe from cars. However many cyclists just ignore the lights and just keep going into pedestrians. There is no punishment for them doing this as they can't be tracked. Personally I think every cyclist should have to register their bike (make it free to help encourage this) and then a new form of ANPR used to also catch cyclists in the act",
">\n\nPersonally I'd have no problem registering my bike for free, especially if I could use that same registration if it gets stolen, but registering something as mechanically simple and cheap as a bicycle is, in my opinion difficult if not impossible to do without making the bike mechanically complex and expensive, at which point most people would just switch to scooters.\nI don't live in London, but from what I've heard, by far the biggest threat in the city is still motorized traffic, namely cars and lorries, and so until that problem is no longer a problem, I wouldn't really do anything special about bikes. Maybe put some undercover bike cops near the most dangerous bike path/lane intersections to catch a few offenders and make an example out of them, but that's about it.",
">\n\nMost cars I’ve driven came equipped with brakes and a steering wheel. I don’t see the problem",
">\n\nA common take and a stupid one.\nThere are good and bad drivers, pedestrians, and cyclists. Hating any of them as a group because some of them do bad things is just dumb.",
">\n\nIf you followed the laws and stayed out of the bike lane as a pedestrian there would be no problem.",
">\n\nIf bicyclists followed the laws and stopped ignoring street signs/traffic lights there would be no problem.",
">\n\nDon’t see how this address the problem with pedestrians in bike lanes.",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Drivers pedestrians other cyclists. They're a scourge.",
">\n\nEvery word of this is pure wisdom.",
">\n\nAs a car driver, I too hate cyclists.\nI don't care who has 'right of way'. I'm in a car, you're not. If we collide, regardless of fault, you're the one that dies.\nDo you really want to die on the hill that says \"i can bike on the rode b/c it's legal\"?\nI might be in jail, but you're still dead.\nBikes don't belong on public roads. Unless there's a bike lane - aka, a pathway designed specifically for bikers.\nIt's FAR SAFER to bike on the sidewalk.",
">\n\nBe careful you’ll anger r/fuckcars",
">\n\nI recently got a bike in Japan and there isn't any room on the street to ride my bike. Most people are fine when I'm on the sidewalk, however, the worst ones are groups of 2 or more who try and take up as much space as possible allowing nobody to pass. Same with the people who constantly switch between the left and right side of the sidewalk. It's really annoying to see how little spacial awareness they have.",
">\n\nCyclists on the road don’t have to pass the same test as vehicles on the road, which is why they are so bad. If there was a test in order to cycle on the road then i think it would be alot better",
">\n\nWhy do you hate all cyclists when only some of them are rude/dangerous?",
">\n\nCope hehe",
">\n\nIt's the powered vehicles that kill most pedestrians.\nBut, sure, cyclists blahblah...",
">\n\nAs an occasional cyclist, I don't like you either.",
">\n\nI biked everywhere.....when I was a child. I'm an adult now and have an automobile. They are pretty neat.",
">\n\nWhen I used to have to walk to work I’d walk on the sidewalk and listen to music and one time this guy zipped right by me yelling almost knocking me over and flipped me off?? They act like they don’t have breaks lmao",
">\n\nholy smokes! glad you're ok",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Even cyclists.",
">\n\nAnd here i thought why the f pediatrician hate cyclists",
">\n\nEveryone hates cyclists. Even other cyclists.",
">\n\nAs a cyclist this thread is hilarious",
">\n\nAnyone got recommendations for how to be a nice, considerate cyclist besides being careful and non-entitled? I plan on starting when it gets warm outside.",
">\n\nNot unpopular",
">\n\nWhen I drive to work, I obey most of the rules. I just can't drive on some roads. That would either kill me at some point or I'd slow down a whole 60 km/h lane that's packed with traffic. When riding on the sidewalk, I always stop or get off my bike if it gets too crowded or the sidewalk narrows. But when no one is around I just keep driving normally, just slower than usual. I try to stay alert at all times and let everyone pass because I know I'm wrong here.\nAt one point there is a one-way street I'm not allowed to drive on, but as my alternatives are the same 60km/h road (but now also with rails) or a crowded sidewalk, I prefer the one-way street with maybe 4 cars per hour that I can easily avoid. After that there is finally a bike path until I get to work. There would be a legal route, but it would take twice, if not triple, the time.\nI also hate reckless cyclists. They have already endangered me and are often unfriendly assholes. I just don't have a death wish and don't want to drive a route in an hour if 20 minutes are possible in a safe way (If the brain gets used).",
">\n\nCyclists don’t care because unless they get injured there are no real consequences for their actions.\nI think that any vehicle, with or without any type of motor, should require a license to operate on a public roadway. Road legal bikes need to be held to quality standards, like cars, and should also be registered. If you wish to ride one on a public roadway it should have a number plate on it. You should have to pass a rider’s ed course proving that you know the rules of the road. There should be a test proving that you can control the vehicle and operate it safely, same as a car or motorcycle.",
">\n\nYeah I’ve nearly been run over from behind by cyclists on sidewalks too many times",
">\n\nIdk maybe my town is weird like everwhere on the internet and even in statistics you hear stuff like that but then I haven't really seen any cyclists run red lights ever and as someone who maybe not often but sometimes cycles, the last thing I'd do as a cyclist is run a red light like I don't wanna die?",
">\n\nOnly people that like cyclist.. are probably just other cyclists.",
">\n\nI don’t mind normal, law-abiding cyclists at all. I just despise the ones that think they can choose whether to act like a car or pedestrian whenever they feel like it. Or worse, they don’t know the actual laws but think they are special just because they are riding a bike.",
">\n\nSometimes I feel like I am the only one watching out for pedestrians. For example when there's a crosswalk coming up that goes over the bike path and there's someone waiting, I always yield and the person waiting is often surprised since most people on bicycles just carry on. So not all cyclists are like that.",
">\n\nAs a pedestrian, cyclist and driver, I hate taxis.",
">\n\nI once almost got hit by a cyclist who failed to stop at a stop sign",
">\n\nCyclist have it both ways which isn’t fair. They can drive on the road AND the sidewalk and use pedestrian crossings when they feel like it. It’s like they have no road rules once on a bike. \nOn the sidewalk I have to get outta the way? No bikeperson. You shouldn’t even be on the sidewalk in the first place! Maybe if you’re under 10 but otherwise drive your vehicle on the road like all other adults!",
">\n\nI knew a cyclist who would always talk shit about cars. He told me he’s been hit TEN TIMES. UMMM?? If you’ve been hit ten times then it’s not the cars fault…",
">\n\nYou must be from New York lol fuck the cyclists up there",
">\n\nAmen brother",
">\n\nLol. Everyone talks like this. No one likes cyclists. \nExcept me. I legit find it hilarious when they fuck with cars and even pedestrians. I saw a cyclist slap a pedestrian staring at their phone in the middle of the road 2 days ago. Cyclist warned him multiple times so cyclist open palmed him as he passed. Fucking hilarious.",
">\n\nYeah hitting people out of anger rather than doing the right thing is so funny",
">\n\nA stick in the spokes will solve the issue of a rude cyclist. \nA joisting pole will solve the issue of rude pedestrians. \nI look forward to the news",
">\n\nHow about the fact you ring your bell or yell “Excuse me coming through” as a cyclist and people are on their phone or slide in that AirPod more securely into their ear? \nPedestrians suck.",
">\n\nI hate when people bike on busy roads. Unfortunately a girl near my home was killed on a busy highway cycling. The driver over corrected and hit her. No alcohol, texting, nothing. Now someone is dead and another has to live with overwhelming guilt the rest of their life",
">\n\nAs a cyclist, I hate pedestrians."
] |
/u/Due-Lie-8710 (OP) has awarded 7 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards
|
[] |
>
There's a song I like that speaks on this fairly poetically, so I'd like to start by just directly quoting it:
So when you bled on the bed as you fed those expectations, as a whore and not a human, you embraced with hesitation the very parameters of all you can be. Not a mother, not an aunt, not a sister who's not subdued. Because dignity's not physical, and your flesh means more than you.
Many (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as "just another job," and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.
|
[
"/u/Due-Lie-8710 (OP) has awarded 7 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards"
] |
>
Many (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as "just another job," and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.
First of all if you aren't trafficked it is just like another job, as for you both being seen as human , make sense hey aren't there to befriend to have sex , you are performing a service, it's like you watching football or a movie, you only see them as footballers ot actors , half of the time they don't care about their personal life, there are some jobs that prevent you from getting any high paying jobs or jobs that involve care , as for the people purchasing it , if you can't purchase it then why should they sell it , you don't actually support sex work, because that would mean accepting the consumer base ad well as the supplier
|
[
"/u/Due-Lie-8710 (OP) has awarded 7 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nThere's a song I like that speaks on this fairly poetically, so I'd like to start by just directly quoting it:\n\nSo when you bled on the bed as you fed those expectations, as a whore and not a human, you embraced with hesitation the very parameters of all you can be. Not a mother, not an aunt, not a sister who's not subdued. Because dignity's not physical, and your flesh means more than you.\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system."
] |
>
That’s a really big if though, sex work isn’t exactly an industry where you will know for sure if the service you’re getting is consensual. individuals who are victims of sexual trafficking, coercion, or just life circumstance aren’t likely to just tell their “customers” if it isn’t consensual. they could endanger themselves or not be aware that they can say something.
Seeing someone as an object vs seeing them as an individual with a job aren’t the same though? yes we recognize actors and football players by their career choice and how well they are at it, but they’re still people at the end of the day? that’s why they have fanbases, interviews, paparazzi, popularity on social media, movie adaptions of their life exist—people are interested in more than them just doing their job.
A persons job is no reason to suddenly strip them of their humanity and rights granted them for being such, that kind of mentality is morally skewed and why a lot of people would not support sex work. plus you can’t say it makes sense for sex workers to be see as commodities only and then believe sex work will be consensual. the whole consent part comes from recognizing that this is another person who has their own boundaries and limits beyond just what you want.
|
[
"/u/Due-Lie-8710 (OP) has awarded 7 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nThere's a song I like that speaks on this fairly poetically, so I'd like to start by just directly quoting it:\n\nSo when you bled on the bed as you fed those expectations, as a whore and not a human, you embraced with hesitation the very parameters of all you can be. Not a mother, not an aunt, not a sister who's not subdued. Because dignity's not physical, and your flesh means more than you.\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.",
">\n\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.\n\nFirst of all if you aren't trafficked it is just like another job, as for you both being seen as human , make sense hey aren't there to befriend to have sex , you are performing a service, it's like you watching football or a movie, you only see them as footballers ot actors , half of the time they don't care about their personal life, there are some jobs that prevent you from getting any high paying jobs or jobs that involve care , as for the people purchasing it , if you can't purchase it then why should they sell it , you don't actually support sex work, because that would mean accepting the consumer base ad well as the supplier"
] |
>
okay, that’s a plumber and not a person you’re having sex with. unlike plumbing which is clean cut, sex can include multiple aspects of different kinks and fetishes. You can’t expect a sex worker to be okay with say participating in rape play, anal, scat, and a mirage of other kinks simply because they agreed to sex. Sex is not clean cut, there is more to it. There has to be a boundary somewhere, this is another person body not a pipe.
|
[
"/u/Due-Lie-8710 (OP) has awarded 7 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nThere's a song I like that speaks on this fairly poetically, so I'd like to start by just directly quoting it:\n\nSo when you bled on the bed as you fed those expectations, as a whore and not a human, you embraced with hesitation the very parameters of all you can be. Not a mother, not an aunt, not a sister who's not subdued. Because dignity's not physical, and your flesh means more than you.\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.",
">\n\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.\n\nFirst of all if you aren't trafficked it is just like another job, as for you both being seen as human , make sense hey aren't there to befriend to have sex , you are performing a service, it's like you watching football or a movie, you only see them as footballers ot actors , half of the time they don't care about their personal life, there are some jobs that prevent you from getting any high paying jobs or jobs that involve care , as for the people purchasing it , if you can't purchase it then why should they sell it , you don't actually support sex work, because that would mean accepting the consumer base ad well as the supplier",
">\n\nThat’s a really big if though, sex work isn’t exactly an industry where you will know for sure if the service you’re getting is consensual. individuals who are victims of sexual trafficking, coercion, or just life circumstance aren’t likely to just tell their “customers” if it isn’t consensual. they could endanger themselves or not be aware that they can say something. \nSeeing someone as an object vs seeing them as an individual with a job aren’t the same though? yes we recognize actors and football players by their career choice and how well they are at it, but they’re still people at the end of the day? that’s why they have fanbases, interviews, paparazzi, popularity on social media, movie adaptions of their life exist—people are interested in more than them just doing their job.\nA persons job is no reason to suddenly strip them of their humanity and rights granted them for being such, that kind of mentality is morally skewed and why a lot of people would not support sex work. plus you can’t say it makes sense for sex workers to be see as commodities only and then believe sex work will be consensual. the whole consent part comes from recognizing that this is another person who has their own boundaries and limits beyond just what you want."
] |
>
That’s like the point? recognizing the boundary and proceeding from there by RESPECTING the boundary because they are another person and not some masturbatory object. What you just said was a consensual interaction. The initial point was that there is no consensual sex without respecting the party that’s giving as a person.
|
[
"/u/Due-Lie-8710 (OP) has awarded 7 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nThere's a song I like that speaks on this fairly poetically, so I'd like to start by just directly quoting it:\n\nSo when you bled on the bed as you fed those expectations, as a whore and not a human, you embraced with hesitation the very parameters of all you can be. Not a mother, not an aunt, not a sister who's not subdued. Because dignity's not physical, and your flesh means more than you.\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.",
">\n\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.\n\nFirst of all if you aren't trafficked it is just like another job, as for you both being seen as human , make sense hey aren't there to befriend to have sex , you are performing a service, it's like you watching football or a movie, you only see them as footballers ot actors , half of the time they don't care about their personal life, there are some jobs that prevent you from getting any high paying jobs or jobs that involve care , as for the people purchasing it , if you can't purchase it then why should they sell it , you don't actually support sex work, because that would mean accepting the consumer base ad well as the supplier",
">\n\nThat’s a really big if though, sex work isn’t exactly an industry where you will know for sure if the service you’re getting is consensual. individuals who are victims of sexual trafficking, coercion, or just life circumstance aren’t likely to just tell their “customers” if it isn’t consensual. they could endanger themselves or not be aware that they can say something. \nSeeing someone as an object vs seeing them as an individual with a job aren’t the same though? yes we recognize actors and football players by their career choice and how well they are at it, but they’re still people at the end of the day? that’s why they have fanbases, interviews, paparazzi, popularity on social media, movie adaptions of their life exist—people are interested in more than them just doing their job.\nA persons job is no reason to suddenly strip them of their humanity and rights granted them for being such, that kind of mentality is morally skewed and why a lot of people would not support sex work. plus you can’t say it makes sense for sex workers to be see as commodities only and then believe sex work will be consensual. the whole consent part comes from recognizing that this is another person who has their own boundaries and limits beyond just what you want.",
">\n\nokay, that’s a plumber and not a person you’re having sex with. unlike plumbing which is clean cut, sex can include multiple aspects of different kinks and fetishes. You can’t expect a sex worker to be okay with say participating in rape play, anal, scat, and a mirage of other kinks simply because they agreed to sex. Sex is not clean cut, there is more to it. There has to be a boundary somewhere, this is another person body not a pipe."
] |
>
So... there's a concept of a moral hazard.
There's literally no way for an individual to be certain that their prostitute is not being coerced/trafficked. Even if there are some special circumstances where it might be unlikely, certainty is still impossible, and most people frequenting prostitutes are not in those special circumstances.
Someone using their services is therefore extremely likely to be comfortable with risking that they are unknowingly raping someone.
Generally speaking, people find that disgusting.
|
[
"/u/Due-Lie-8710 (OP) has awarded 7 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nThere's a song I like that speaks on this fairly poetically, so I'd like to start by just directly quoting it:\n\nSo when you bled on the bed as you fed those expectations, as a whore and not a human, you embraced with hesitation the very parameters of all you can be. Not a mother, not an aunt, not a sister who's not subdued. Because dignity's not physical, and your flesh means more than you.\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.",
">\n\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.\n\nFirst of all if you aren't trafficked it is just like another job, as for you both being seen as human , make sense hey aren't there to befriend to have sex , you are performing a service, it's like you watching football or a movie, you only see them as footballers ot actors , half of the time they don't care about their personal life, there are some jobs that prevent you from getting any high paying jobs or jobs that involve care , as for the people purchasing it , if you can't purchase it then why should they sell it , you don't actually support sex work, because that would mean accepting the consumer base ad well as the supplier",
">\n\nThat’s a really big if though, sex work isn’t exactly an industry where you will know for sure if the service you’re getting is consensual. individuals who are victims of sexual trafficking, coercion, or just life circumstance aren’t likely to just tell their “customers” if it isn’t consensual. they could endanger themselves or not be aware that they can say something. \nSeeing someone as an object vs seeing them as an individual with a job aren’t the same though? yes we recognize actors and football players by their career choice and how well they are at it, but they’re still people at the end of the day? that’s why they have fanbases, interviews, paparazzi, popularity on social media, movie adaptions of their life exist—people are interested in more than them just doing their job.\nA persons job is no reason to suddenly strip them of their humanity and rights granted them for being such, that kind of mentality is morally skewed and why a lot of people would not support sex work. plus you can’t say it makes sense for sex workers to be see as commodities only and then believe sex work will be consensual. the whole consent part comes from recognizing that this is another person who has their own boundaries and limits beyond just what you want.",
">\n\nokay, that’s a plumber and not a person you’re having sex with. unlike plumbing which is clean cut, sex can include multiple aspects of different kinks and fetishes. You can’t expect a sex worker to be okay with say participating in rape play, anal, scat, and a mirage of other kinks simply because they agreed to sex. Sex is not clean cut, there is more to it. There has to be a boundary somewhere, this is another person body not a pipe.",
">\n\nThat’s like the point? recognizing the boundary and proceeding from there by RESPECTING the boundary because they are another person and not some masturbatory object. What you just said was a consensual interaction. The initial point was that there is no consensual sex without respecting the party that’s giving as a person."
] |
>
If you eat chocolate (even the stuff with the fair trade sticker) then there's no guarantee that it hasn't come from slave farms which are not uncommon. If you eat chocolate throughout your life then you are almost definitely contributing to slavery. If you visit a prostitute regularly then the chance they're being exploited is anywhere from functioninally 0% to 100%. So why treat the John who might be discerning with scorn and not the chocolate eater who is a much safer bet in having contributed to coerced labour.
|
[
"/u/Due-Lie-8710 (OP) has awarded 7 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nThere's a song I like that speaks on this fairly poetically, so I'd like to start by just directly quoting it:\n\nSo when you bled on the bed as you fed those expectations, as a whore and not a human, you embraced with hesitation the very parameters of all you can be. Not a mother, not an aunt, not a sister who's not subdued. Because dignity's not physical, and your flesh means more than you.\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.",
">\n\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.\n\nFirst of all if you aren't trafficked it is just like another job, as for you both being seen as human , make sense hey aren't there to befriend to have sex , you are performing a service, it's like you watching football or a movie, you only see them as footballers ot actors , half of the time they don't care about their personal life, there are some jobs that prevent you from getting any high paying jobs or jobs that involve care , as for the people purchasing it , if you can't purchase it then why should they sell it , you don't actually support sex work, because that would mean accepting the consumer base ad well as the supplier",
">\n\nThat’s a really big if though, sex work isn’t exactly an industry where you will know for sure if the service you’re getting is consensual. individuals who are victims of sexual trafficking, coercion, or just life circumstance aren’t likely to just tell their “customers” if it isn’t consensual. they could endanger themselves or not be aware that they can say something. \nSeeing someone as an object vs seeing them as an individual with a job aren’t the same though? yes we recognize actors and football players by their career choice and how well they are at it, but they’re still people at the end of the day? that’s why they have fanbases, interviews, paparazzi, popularity on social media, movie adaptions of their life exist—people are interested in more than them just doing their job.\nA persons job is no reason to suddenly strip them of their humanity and rights granted them for being such, that kind of mentality is morally skewed and why a lot of people would not support sex work. plus you can’t say it makes sense for sex workers to be see as commodities only and then believe sex work will be consensual. the whole consent part comes from recognizing that this is another person who has their own boundaries and limits beyond just what you want.",
">\n\nokay, that’s a plumber and not a person you’re having sex with. unlike plumbing which is clean cut, sex can include multiple aspects of different kinks and fetishes. You can’t expect a sex worker to be okay with say participating in rape play, anal, scat, and a mirage of other kinks simply because they agreed to sex. Sex is not clean cut, there is more to it. There has to be a boundary somewhere, this is another person body not a pipe.",
">\n\nThat’s like the point? recognizing the boundary and proceeding from there by RESPECTING the boundary because they are another person and not some masturbatory object. What you just said was a consensual interaction. The initial point was that there is no consensual sex without respecting the party that’s giving as a person.",
">\n\nSo... there's a concept of a moral hazard. \nThere's literally no way for an individual to be certain that their prostitute is not being coerced/trafficked. Even if there are some special circumstances where it might be unlikely, certainty is still impossible, and most people frequenting prostitutes are not in those special circumstances.\nSomeone using their services is therefore extremely likely to be comfortable with risking that they are unknowingly raping someone. \nGenerally speaking, people find that disgusting."
] |
>
It's worth trying to avoid those situations, but ultimately it's a very false equivalence to hold people responsible for the actions of others, vs. their own personal actions.
When you buy chocolate, you're not actually holding a gun to a slave, someone else is. The right answer to that is to lobby for worker protections for imported goods, and to try to end involuntary servitude within your country as well.
When you have sex with a trafficked person, you personally literally raped them. If you don't have good evidence to know they aren't trafficked, you're personally ok with the possibility you're going to personally rape them.
Both might be considered bad. But it's a false equivalence.
And sure... if someone is paying someone for sex when they are personal friends with them, and interact with them outside of prostitution enough to personally know that they aren't being trafficked... and you're sure they aren't lying, scorning them more than at most some light ribbing isn't justified. It's not like "sugar daddies" aren't a thing as well. At the very least much less disapprobation would be appropriate.
|
[
"/u/Due-Lie-8710 (OP) has awarded 7 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nThere's a song I like that speaks on this fairly poetically, so I'd like to start by just directly quoting it:\n\nSo when you bled on the bed as you fed those expectations, as a whore and not a human, you embraced with hesitation the very parameters of all you can be. Not a mother, not an aunt, not a sister who's not subdued. Because dignity's not physical, and your flesh means more than you.\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.",
">\n\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.\n\nFirst of all if you aren't trafficked it is just like another job, as for you both being seen as human , make sense hey aren't there to befriend to have sex , you are performing a service, it's like you watching football or a movie, you only see them as footballers ot actors , half of the time they don't care about their personal life, there are some jobs that prevent you from getting any high paying jobs or jobs that involve care , as for the people purchasing it , if you can't purchase it then why should they sell it , you don't actually support sex work, because that would mean accepting the consumer base ad well as the supplier",
">\n\nThat’s a really big if though, sex work isn’t exactly an industry where you will know for sure if the service you’re getting is consensual. individuals who are victims of sexual trafficking, coercion, or just life circumstance aren’t likely to just tell their “customers” if it isn’t consensual. they could endanger themselves or not be aware that they can say something. \nSeeing someone as an object vs seeing them as an individual with a job aren’t the same though? yes we recognize actors and football players by their career choice and how well they are at it, but they’re still people at the end of the day? that’s why they have fanbases, interviews, paparazzi, popularity on social media, movie adaptions of their life exist—people are interested in more than them just doing their job.\nA persons job is no reason to suddenly strip them of their humanity and rights granted them for being such, that kind of mentality is morally skewed and why a lot of people would not support sex work. plus you can’t say it makes sense for sex workers to be see as commodities only and then believe sex work will be consensual. the whole consent part comes from recognizing that this is another person who has their own boundaries and limits beyond just what you want.",
">\n\nokay, that’s a plumber and not a person you’re having sex with. unlike plumbing which is clean cut, sex can include multiple aspects of different kinks and fetishes. You can’t expect a sex worker to be okay with say participating in rape play, anal, scat, and a mirage of other kinks simply because they agreed to sex. Sex is not clean cut, there is more to it. There has to be a boundary somewhere, this is another person body not a pipe.",
">\n\nThat’s like the point? recognizing the boundary and proceeding from there by RESPECTING the boundary because they are another person and not some masturbatory object. What you just said was a consensual interaction. The initial point was that there is no consensual sex without respecting the party that’s giving as a person.",
">\n\nSo... there's a concept of a moral hazard. \nThere's literally no way for an individual to be certain that their prostitute is not being coerced/trafficked. Even if there are some special circumstances where it might be unlikely, certainty is still impossible, and most people frequenting prostitutes are not in those special circumstances.\nSomeone using their services is therefore extremely likely to be comfortable with risking that they are unknowingly raping someone. \nGenerally speaking, people find that disgusting.",
">\n\nIf you eat chocolate (even the stuff with the fair trade sticker) then there's no guarantee that it hasn't come from slave farms which are not uncommon. If you eat chocolate throughout your life then you are almost definitely contributing to slavery. If you visit a prostitute regularly then the chance they're being exploited is anywhere from functioninally 0% to 100%. So why treat the John who might be discerning with scorn and not the chocolate eater who is a much safer bet in having contributed to coerced labour."
] |
>
In both cases, there is a customer receiving a service provided by a potentially enslaved person. They are morally equivalent. It makes no sense to say “sure I bought the slavery chocolate, but you can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”
|
[
"/u/Due-Lie-8710 (OP) has awarded 7 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nThere's a song I like that speaks on this fairly poetically, so I'd like to start by just directly quoting it:\n\nSo when you bled on the bed as you fed those expectations, as a whore and not a human, you embraced with hesitation the very parameters of all you can be. Not a mother, not an aunt, not a sister who's not subdued. Because dignity's not physical, and your flesh means more than you.\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.",
">\n\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.\n\nFirst of all if you aren't trafficked it is just like another job, as for you both being seen as human , make sense hey aren't there to befriend to have sex , you are performing a service, it's like you watching football or a movie, you only see them as footballers ot actors , half of the time they don't care about their personal life, there are some jobs that prevent you from getting any high paying jobs or jobs that involve care , as for the people purchasing it , if you can't purchase it then why should they sell it , you don't actually support sex work, because that would mean accepting the consumer base ad well as the supplier",
">\n\nThat’s a really big if though, sex work isn’t exactly an industry where you will know for sure if the service you’re getting is consensual. individuals who are victims of sexual trafficking, coercion, or just life circumstance aren’t likely to just tell their “customers” if it isn’t consensual. they could endanger themselves or not be aware that they can say something. \nSeeing someone as an object vs seeing them as an individual with a job aren’t the same though? yes we recognize actors and football players by their career choice and how well they are at it, but they’re still people at the end of the day? that’s why they have fanbases, interviews, paparazzi, popularity on social media, movie adaptions of their life exist—people are interested in more than them just doing their job.\nA persons job is no reason to suddenly strip them of their humanity and rights granted them for being such, that kind of mentality is morally skewed and why a lot of people would not support sex work. plus you can’t say it makes sense for sex workers to be see as commodities only and then believe sex work will be consensual. the whole consent part comes from recognizing that this is another person who has their own boundaries and limits beyond just what you want.",
">\n\nokay, that’s a plumber and not a person you’re having sex with. unlike plumbing which is clean cut, sex can include multiple aspects of different kinks and fetishes. You can’t expect a sex worker to be okay with say participating in rape play, anal, scat, and a mirage of other kinks simply because they agreed to sex. Sex is not clean cut, there is more to it. There has to be a boundary somewhere, this is another person body not a pipe.",
">\n\nThat’s like the point? recognizing the boundary and proceeding from there by RESPECTING the boundary because they are another person and not some masturbatory object. What you just said was a consensual interaction. The initial point was that there is no consensual sex without respecting the party that’s giving as a person.",
">\n\nSo... there's a concept of a moral hazard. \nThere's literally no way for an individual to be certain that their prostitute is not being coerced/trafficked. Even if there are some special circumstances where it might be unlikely, certainty is still impossible, and most people frequenting prostitutes are not in those special circumstances.\nSomeone using their services is therefore extremely likely to be comfortable with risking that they are unknowingly raping someone. \nGenerally speaking, people find that disgusting.",
">\n\nIf you eat chocolate (even the stuff with the fair trade sticker) then there's no guarantee that it hasn't come from slave farms which are not uncommon. If you eat chocolate throughout your life then you are almost definitely contributing to slavery. If you visit a prostitute regularly then the chance they're being exploited is anywhere from functioninally 0% to 100%. So why treat the John who might be discerning with scorn and not the chocolate eater who is a much safer bet in having contributed to coerced labour.",
">\n\nIt's worth trying to avoid those situations, but ultimately it's a very false equivalence to hold people responsible for the actions of others, vs. their own personal actions.\nWhen you buy chocolate, you're not actually holding a gun to a slave, someone else is. The right answer to that is to lobby for worker protections for imported goods, and to try to end involuntary servitude within your country as well. \nWhen you have sex with a trafficked person, you personally literally raped them. If you don't have good evidence to know they aren't trafficked, you're personally ok with the possibility you're going to personally rape them. \nBoth might be considered bad. But it's a false equivalence.\nAnd sure... if someone is paying someone for sex when they are personal friends with them, and interact with them outside of prostitution enough to personally know that they aren't being trafficked... and you're sure they aren't lying, scorning them more than at most some light ribbing isn't justified. It's not like \"sugar daddies\" aren't a thing as well. At the very least much less disapprobation would be appropriate."
] |
>
you can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”
The slavers actions are distinct from the consumers' actions for most things.
This is an actual important difference when it comes to prostitution.
Ignoring that fundamental difference doesn't make it go away, and it's entirely reasonable for someone to make that distinction.
|
[
"/u/Due-Lie-8710 (OP) has awarded 7 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nThere's a song I like that speaks on this fairly poetically, so I'd like to start by just directly quoting it:\n\nSo when you bled on the bed as you fed those expectations, as a whore and not a human, you embraced with hesitation the very parameters of all you can be. Not a mother, not an aunt, not a sister who's not subdued. Because dignity's not physical, and your flesh means more than you.\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.",
">\n\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.\n\nFirst of all if you aren't trafficked it is just like another job, as for you both being seen as human , make sense hey aren't there to befriend to have sex , you are performing a service, it's like you watching football or a movie, you only see them as footballers ot actors , half of the time they don't care about their personal life, there are some jobs that prevent you from getting any high paying jobs or jobs that involve care , as for the people purchasing it , if you can't purchase it then why should they sell it , you don't actually support sex work, because that would mean accepting the consumer base ad well as the supplier",
">\n\nThat’s a really big if though, sex work isn’t exactly an industry where you will know for sure if the service you’re getting is consensual. individuals who are victims of sexual trafficking, coercion, or just life circumstance aren’t likely to just tell their “customers” if it isn’t consensual. they could endanger themselves or not be aware that they can say something. \nSeeing someone as an object vs seeing them as an individual with a job aren’t the same though? yes we recognize actors and football players by their career choice and how well they are at it, but they’re still people at the end of the day? that’s why they have fanbases, interviews, paparazzi, popularity on social media, movie adaptions of their life exist—people are interested in more than them just doing their job.\nA persons job is no reason to suddenly strip them of their humanity and rights granted them for being such, that kind of mentality is morally skewed and why a lot of people would not support sex work. plus you can’t say it makes sense for sex workers to be see as commodities only and then believe sex work will be consensual. the whole consent part comes from recognizing that this is another person who has their own boundaries and limits beyond just what you want.",
">\n\nokay, that’s a plumber and not a person you’re having sex with. unlike plumbing which is clean cut, sex can include multiple aspects of different kinks and fetishes. You can’t expect a sex worker to be okay with say participating in rape play, anal, scat, and a mirage of other kinks simply because they agreed to sex. Sex is not clean cut, there is more to it. There has to be a boundary somewhere, this is another person body not a pipe.",
">\n\nThat’s like the point? recognizing the boundary and proceeding from there by RESPECTING the boundary because they are another person and not some masturbatory object. What you just said was a consensual interaction. The initial point was that there is no consensual sex without respecting the party that’s giving as a person.",
">\n\nSo... there's a concept of a moral hazard. \nThere's literally no way for an individual to be certain that their prostitute is not being coerced/trafficked. Even if there are some special circumstances where it might be unlikely, certainty is still impossible, and most people frequenting prostitutes are not in those special circumstances.\nSomeone using their services is therefore extremely likely to be comfortable with risking that they are unknowingly raping someone. \nGenerally speaking, people find that disgusting.",
">\n\nIf you eat chocolate (even the stuff with the fair trade sticker) then there's no guarantee that it hasn't come from slave farms which are not uncommon. If you eat chocolate throughout your life then you are almost definitely contributing to slavery. If you visit a prostitute regularly then the chance they're being exploited is anywhere from functioninally 0% to 100%. So why treat the John who might be discerning with scorn and not the chocolate eater who is a much safer bet in having contributed to coerced labour.",
">\n\nIt's worth trying to avoid those situations, but ultimately it's a very false equivalence to hold people responsible for the actions of others, vs. their own personal actions.\nWhen you buy chocolate, you're not actually holding a gun to a slave, someone else is. The right answer to that is to lobby for worker protections for imported goods, and to try to end involuntary servitude within your country as well. \nWhen you have sex with a trafficked person, you personally literally raped them. If you don't have good evidence to know they aren't trafficked, you're personally ok with the possibility you're going to personally rape them. \nBoth might be considered bad. But it's a false equivalence.\nAnd sure... if someone is paying someone for sex when they are personal friends with them, and interact with them outside of prostitution enough to personally know that they aren't being trafficked... and you're sure they aren't lying, scorning them more than at most some light ribbing isn't justified. It's not like \"sugar daddies\" aren't a thing as well. At the very least much less disapprobation would be appropriate.",
">\n\nIn both cases, there is a customer receiving a service provided by a potentially enslaved person. They are morally equivalent. It makes no sense to say “sure I bought the slavery chocolate, but you can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”"
] |
>
The slaver and consumer are different people who take different actions in the prostitution scenario. The consumer in both scenarios is taking the risk of being immoral. If I force you to be my slave that’s still immoral whether or not I put you to work in my brothel or mine or factory or fishing boat. And if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever, it’s equivalent.
|
[
"/u/Due-Lie-8710 (OP) has awarded 7 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nThere's a song I like that speaks on this fairly poetically, so I'd like to start by just directly quoting it:\n\nSo when you bled on the bed as you fed those expectations, as a whore and not a human, you embraced with hesitation the very parameters of all you can be. Not a mother, not an aunt, not a sister who's not subdued. Because dignity's not physical, and your flesh means more than you.\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.",
">\n\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.\n\nFirst of all if you aren't trafficked it is just like another job, as for you both being seen as human , make sense hey aren't there to befriend to have sex , you are performing a service, it's like you watching football or a movie, you only see them as footballers ot actors , half of the time they don't care about their personal life, there are some jobs that prevent you from getting any high paying jobs or jobs that involve care , as for the people purchasing it , if you can't purchase it then why should they sell it , you don't actually support sex work, because that would mean accepting the consumer base ad well as the supplier",
">\n\nThat’s a really big if though, sex work isn’t exactly an industry where you will know for sure if the service you’re getting is consensual. individuals who are victims of sexual trafficking, coercion, or just life circumstance aren’t likely to just tell their “customers” if it isn’t consensual. they could endanger themselves or not be aware that they can say something. \nSeeing someone as an object vs seeing them as an individual with a job aren’t the same though? yes we recognize actors and football players by their career choice and how well they are at it, but they’re still people at the end of the day? that’s why they have fanbases, interviews, paparazzi, popularity on social media, movie adaptions of their life exist—people are interested in more than them just doing their job.\nA persons job is no reason to suddenly strip them of their humanity and rights granted them for being such, that kind of mentality is morally skewed and why a lot of people would not support sex work. plus you can’t say it makes sense for sex workers to be see as commodities only and then believe sex work will be consensual. the whole consent part comes from recognizing that this is another person who has their own boundaries and limits beyond just what you want.",
">\n\nokay, that’s a plumber and not a person you’re having sex with. unlike plumbing which is clean cut, sex can include multiple aspects of different kinks and fetishes. You can’t expect a sex worker to be okay with say participating in rape play, anal, scat, and a mirage of other kinks simply because they agreed to sex. Sex is not clean cut, there is more to it. There has to be a boundary somewhere, this is another person body not a pipe.",
">\n\nThat’s like the point? recognizing the boundary and proceeding from there by RESPECTING the boundary because they are another person and not some masturbatory object. What you just said was a consensual interaction. The initial point was that there is no consensual sex without respecting the party that’s giving as a person.",
">\n\nSo... there's a concept of a moral hazard. \nThere's literally no way for an individual to be certain that their prostitute is not being coerced/trafficked. Even if there are some special circumstances where it might be unlikely, certainty is still impossible, and most people frequenting prostitutes are not in those special circumstances.\nSomeone using their services is therefore extremely likely to be comfortable with risking that they are unknowingly raping someone. \nGenerally speaking, people find that disgusting.",
">\n\nIf you eat chocolate (even the stuff with the fair trade sticker) then there's no guarantee that it hasn't come from slave farms which are not uncommon. If you eat chocolate throughout your life then you are almost definitely contributing to slavery. If you visit a prostitute regularly then the chance they're being exploited is anywhere from functioninally 0% to 100%. So why treat the John who might be discerning with scorn and not the chocolate eater who is a much safer bet in having contributed to coerced labour.",
">\n\nIt's worth trying to avoid those situations, but ultimately it's a very false equivalence to hold people responsible for the actions of others, vs. their own personal actions.\nWhen you buy chocolate, you're not actually holding a gun to a slave, someone else is. The right answer to that is to lobby for worker protections for imported goods, and to try to end involuntary servitude within your country as well. \nWhen you have sex with a trafficked person, you personally literally raped them. If you don't have good evidence to know they aren't trafficked, you're personally ok with the possibility you're going to personally rape them. \nBoth might be considered bad. But it's a false equivalence.\nAnd sure... if someone is paying someone for sex when they are personal friends with them, and interact with them outside of prostitution enough to personally know that they aren't being trafficked... and you're sure they aren't lying, scorning them more than at most some light ribbing isn't justified. It's not like \"sugar daddies\" aren't a thing as well. At the very least much less disapprobation would be appropriate.",
">\n\nIn both cases, there is a customer receiving a service provided by a potentially enslaved person. They are morally equivalent. It makes no sense to say “sure I bought the slavery chocolate, but you can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”",
">\n\n\nyou can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”\n\nThe slavers actions are distinct from the consumers' actions for most things. \nThis is an actual important difference when it comes to prostitution. \nIgnoring that fundamental difference doesn't make it go away, and it's entirely reasonable for someone to make that distinction."
] |
>
And if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever , it’s equivalent.
This is where the false equivalence comes in.
Someone making products with slave labor is not renting out a slave to the consumer so that they consumer can force them to perform mining for the consumer. They are enslaving the labor to create a product, and selling the product. Products don't have rights to violate. The only person violating the rights of the slave is the slaver.
Someone trafficking a victim is renting out that victim so that the consumer can rape them.
|
[
"/u/Due-Lie-8710 (OP) has awarded 7 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nThere's a song I like that speaks on this fairly poetically, so I'd like to start by just directly quoting it:\n\nSo when you bled on the bed as you fed those expectations, as a whore and not a human, you embraced with hesitation the very parameters of all you can be. Not a mother, not an aunt, not a sister who's not subdued. Because dignity's not physical, and your flesh means more than you.\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.",
">\n\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.\n\nFirst of all if you aren't trafficked it is just like another job, as for you both being seen as human , make sense hey aren't there to befriend to have sex , you are performing a service, it's like you watching football or a movie, you only see them as footballers ot actors , half of the time they don't care about their personal life, there are some jobs that prevent you from getting any high paying jobs or jobs that involve care , as for the people purchasing it , if you can't purchase it then why should they sell it , you don't actually support sex work, because that would mean accepting the consumer base ad well as the supplier",
">\n\nThat’s a really big if though, sex work isn’t exactly an industry where you will know for sure if the service you’re getting is consensual. individuals who are victims of sexual trafficking, coercion, or just life circumstance aren’t likely to just tell their “customers” if it isn’t consensual. they could endanger themselves or not be aware that they can say something. \nSeeing someone as an object vs seeing them as an individual with a job aren’t the same though? yes we recognize actors and football players by their career choice and how well they are at it, but they’re still people at the end of the day? that’s why they have fanbases, interviews, paparazzi, popularity on social media, movie adaptions of their life exist—people are interested in more than them just doing their job.\nA persons job is no reason to suddenly strip them of their humanity and rights granted them for being such, that kind of mentality is morally skewed and why a lot of people would not support sex work. plus you can’t say it makes sense for sex workers to be see as commodities only and then believe sex work will be consensual. the whole consent part comes from recognizing that this is another person who has their own boundaries and limits beyond just what you want.",
">\n\nokay, that’s a plumber and not a person you’re having sex with. unlike plumbing which is clean cut, sex can include multiple aspects of different kinks and fetishes. You can’t expect a sex worker to be okay with say participating in rape play, anal, scat, and a mirage of other kinks simply because they agreed to sex. Sex is not clean cut, there is more to it. There has to be a boundary somewhere, this is another person body not a pipe.",
">\n\nThat’s like the point? recognizing the boundary and proceeding from there by RESPECTING the boundary because they are another person and not some masturbatory object. What you just said was a consensual interaction. The initial point was that there is no consensual sex without respecting the party that’s giving as a person.",
">\n\nSo... there's a concept of a moral hazard. \nThere's literally no way for an individual to be certain that their prostitute is not being coerced/trafficked. Even if there are some special circumstances where it might be unlikely, certainty is still impossible, and most people frequenting prostitutes are not in those special circumstances.\nSomeone using their services is therefore extremely likely to be comfortable with risking that they are unknowingly raping someone. \nGenerally speaking, people find that disgusting.",
">\n\nIf you eat chocolate (even the stuff with the fair trade sticker) then there's no guarantee that it hasn't come from slave farms which are not uncommon. If you eat chocolate throughout your life then you are almost definitely contributing to slavery. If you visit a prostitute regularly then the chance they're being exploited is anywhere from functioninally 0% to 100%. So why treat the John who might be discerning with scorn and not the chocolate eater who is a much safer bet in having contributed to coerced labour.",
">\n\nIt's worth trying to avoid those situations, but ultimately it's a very false equivalence to hold people responsible for the actions of others, vs. their own personal actions.\nWhen you buy chocolate, you're not actually holding a gun to a slave, someone else is. The right answer to that is to lobby for worker protections for imported goods, and to try to end involuntary servitude within your country as well. \nWhen you have sex with a trafficked person, you personally literally raped them. If you don't have good evidence to know they aren't trafficked, you're personally ok with the possibility you're going to personally rape them. \nBoth might be considered bad. But it's a false equivalence.\nAnd sure... if someone is paying someone for sex when they are personal friends with them, and interact with them outside of prostitution enough to personally know that they aren't being trafficked... and you're sure they aren't lying, scorning them more than at most some light ribbing isn't justified. It's not like \"sugar daddies\" aren't a thing as well. At the very least much less disapprobation would be appropriate.",
">\n\nIn both cases, there is a customer receiving a service provided by a potentially enslaved person. They are morally equivalent. It makes no sense to say “sure I bought the slavery chocolate, but you can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”",
">\n\n\nyou can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”\n\nThe slavers actions are distinct from the consumers' actions for most things. \nThis is an actual important difference when it comes to prostitution. \nIgnoring that fundamental difference doesn't make it go away, and it's entirely reasonable for someone to make that distinction.",
">\n\nThe slaver and consumer are different people who take different actions in the prostitution scenario. The consumer in both scenarios is taking the risk of being immoral. If I force you to be my slave that’s still immoral whether or not I put you to work in my brothel or mine or factory or fishing boat. And if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever, it’s equivalent."
] |
>
If the sex is only contractual to you? Why not just "hook up." Why pay? You will never be able to guarantee they are not being trafficked. If they are, they are not going to tell you. I think the idea of money exchanging hands for sex is the why most have a problem. The idea that you are giving a woman money for sex has been historically seen as her being a whore.
I am not saying she is. I am saying that from the time it first exchanged hands, that is what it was. Men who could not find a woman, paid a woman. Why do you want others to see it differently? Yes, there will be outliers that will enjoy the work. But those are going to be ones that, like the escort, chose it, and charge what they want. Not the typical street hookers on the corner with pimps to pay.
Prove they are not trafficked, they work for themselves, they are clean (of both drugs and diseases - because they are taking care of themselves and being safe), and that they are a sex worker because they enjoy the work or that that chose the work. Then, hey! Pay 'em and get to it!
|
[
"/u/Due-Lie-8710 (OP) has awarded 7 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nThere's a song I like that speaks on this fairly poetically, so I'd like to start by just directly quoting it:\n\nSo when you bled on the bed as you fed those expectations, as a whore and not a human, you embraced with hesitation the very parameters of all you can be. Not a mother, not an aunt, not a sister who's not subdued. Because dignity's not physical, and your flesh means more than you.\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.",
">\n\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.\n\nFirst of all if you aren't trafficked it is just like another job, as for you both being seen as human , make sense hey aren't there to befriend to have sex , you are performing a service, it's like you watching football or a movie, you only see them as footballers ot actors , half of the time they don't care about their personal life, there are some jobs that prevent you from getting any high paying jobs or jobs that involve care , as for the people purchasing it , if you can't purchase it then why should they sell it , you don't actually support sex work, because that would mean accepting the consumer base ad well as the supplier",
">\n\nThat’s a really big if though, sex work isn’t exactly an industry where you will know for sure if the service you’re getting is consensual. individuals who are victims of sexual trafficking, coercion, or just life circumstance aren’t likely to just tell their “customers” if it isn’t consensual. they could endanger themselves or not be aware that they can say something. \nSeeing someone as an object vs seeing them as an individual with a job aren’t the same though? yes we recognize actors and football players by their career choice and how well they are at it, but they’re still people at the end of the day? that’s why they have fanbases, interviews, paparazzi, popularity on social media, movie adaptions of their life exist—people are interested in more than them just doing their job.\nA persons job is no reason to suddenly strip them of their humanity and rights granted them for being such, that kind of mentality is morally skewed and why a lot of people would not support sex work. plus you can’t say it makes sense for sex workers to be see as commodities only and then believe sex work will be consensual. the whole consent part comes from recognizing that this is another person who has their own boundaries and limits beyond just what you want.",
">\n\nokay, that’s a plumber and not a person you’re having sex with. unlike plumbing which is clean cut, sex can include multiple aspects of different kinks and fetishes. You can’t expect a sex worker to be okay with say participating in rape play, anal, scat, and a mirage of other kinks simply because they agreed to sex. Sex is not clean cut, there is more to it. There has to be a boundary somewhere, this is another person body not a pipe.",
">\n\nThat’s like the point? recognizing the boundary and proceeding from there by RESPECTING the boundary because they are another person and not some masturbatory object. What you just said was a consensual interaction. The initial point was that there is no consensual sex without respecting the party that’s giving as a person.",
">\n\nSo... there's a concept of a moral hazard. \nThere's literally no way for an individual to be certain that their prostitute is not being coerced/trafficked. Even if there are some special circumstances where it might be unlikely, certainty is still impossible, and most people frequenting prostitutes are not in those special circumstances.\nSomeone using their services is therefore extremely likely to be comfortable with risking that they are unknowingly raping someone. \nGenerally speaking, people find that disgusting.",
">\n\nIf you eat chocolate (even the stuff with the fair trade sticker) then there's no guarantee that it hasn't come from slave farms which are not uncommon. If you eat chocolate throughout your life then you are almost definitely contributing to slavery. If you visit a prostitute regularly then the chance they're being exploited is anywhere from functioninally 0% to 100%. So why treat the John who might be discerning with scorn and not the chocolate eater who is a much safer bet in having contributed to coerced labour.",
">\n\nIt's worth trying to avoid those situations, but ultimately it's a very false equivalence to hold people responsible for the actions of others, vs. their own personal actions.\nWhen you buy chocolate, you're not actually holding a gun to a slave, someone else is. The right answer to that is to lobby for worker protections for imported goods, and to try to end involuntary servitude within your country as well. \nWhen you have sex with a trafficked person, you personally literally raped them. If you don't have good evidence to know they aren't trafficked, you're personally ok with the possibility you're going to personally rape them. \nBoth might be considered bad. But it's a false equivalence.\nAnd sure... if someone is paying someone for sex when they are personal friends with them, and interact with them outside of prostitution enough to personally know that they aren't being trafficked... and you're sure they aren't lying, scorning them more than at most some light ribbing isn't justified. It's not like \"sugar daddies\" aren't a thing as well. At the very least much less disapprobation would be appropriate.",
">\n\nIn both cases, there is a customer receiving a service provided by a potentially enslaved person. They are morally equivalent. It makes no sense to say “sure I bought the slavery chocolate, but you can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”",
">\n\n\nyou can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”\n\nThe slavers actions are distinct from the consumers' actions for most things. \nThis is an actual important difference when it comes to prostitution. \nIgnoring that fundamental difference doesn't make it go away, and it's entirely reasonable for someone to make that distinction.",
">\n\nThe slaver and consumer are different people who take different actions in the prostitution scenario. The consumer in both scenarios is taking the risk of being immoral. If I force you to be my slave that’s still immoral whether or not I put you to work in my brothel or mine or factory or fishing boat. And if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever, it’s equivalent.",
">\n\n\nAnd if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever , it’s equivalent.\n\nThis is where the false equivalence comes in. \nSomeone making products with slave labor is not renting out a slave to the consumer so that they consumer can force them to perform mining for the consumer. They are enslaving the labor to create a product, and selling the product. Products don't have rights to violate. The only person violating the rights of the slave is the slaver.\nSomeone trafficking a victim is renting out that victim so that the consumer can rape them."
] |
>
I think it is morally unhealthy to normalize it. Even though you have to be an adult to smoke weed, we definitely see weed as a normal thing to do in moderation compared to a few decades ago. This is how we would see prostitution if it was normalized. And I think weed has a lot less complications than legalizing prostitution. A LOT!
Sex work online is a lot safer and requires a lot less mental issues to engage in and promote. But even then, I know some sex workers (online type), and they are scarred by the stuff they have seen when it comes to their job. They have told me stories that are extremely disturbing. These are women who just do stuff by themselves. Not working with a porn company and other people.
Also, sex has a huge reputation for being violent and demoralizing towards women in general. I'd assume those numbers would be much higher in men looking to pay for sex. You'd have to have extremely strict and tight regulations for this sort of thing, which would take the fun out of it for a lot of people. And even then, there would still be many mistakes that would happen before we find out all the regulations that are needed. And I don't think we could ever make it mentally and physically safe for women.
Now, do I think it should be decriminalized for prostitutes? Definitely. I don't see them as disgusting. I feel quite bad for them. Most of them were trafficked at a young age. Do I see men wanting to pay for sex as disgusting? Not necessarily. It depends on the person and the situation. However, this isn't a simple issue where if we just "stop judging people," everything will be fine.
|
[
"/u/Due-Lie-8710 (OP) has awarded 7 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nThere's a song I like that speaks on this fairly poetically, so I'd like to start by just directly quoting it:\n\nSo when you bled on the bed as you fed those expectations, as a whore and not a human, you embraced with hesitation the very parameters of all you can be. Not a mother, not an aunt, not a sister who's not subdued. Because dignity's not physical, and your flesh means more than you.\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.",
">\n\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.\n\nFirst of all if you aren't trafficked it is just like another job, as for you both being seen as human , make sense hey aren't there to befriend to have sex , you are performing a service, it's like you watching football or a movie, you only see them as footballers ot actors , half of the time they don't care about their personal life, there are some jobs that prevent you from getting any high paying jobs or jobs that involve care , as for the people purchasing it , if you can't purchase it then why should they sell it , you don't actually support sex work, because that would mean accepting the consumer base ad well as the supplier",
">\n\nThat’s a really big if though, sex work isn’t exactly an industry where you will know for sure if the service you’re getting is consensual. individuals who are victims of sexual trafficking, coercion, or just life circumstance aren’t likely to just tell their “customers” if it isn’t consensual. they could endanger themselves or not be aware that they can say something. \nSeeing someone as an object vs seeing them as an individual with a job aren’t the same though? yes we recognize actors and football players by their career choice and how well they are at it, but they’re still people at the end of the day? that’s why they have fanbases, interviews, paparazzi, popularity on social media, movie adaptions of their life exist—people are interested in more than them just doing their job.\nA persons job is no reason to suddenly strip them of their humanity and rights granted them for being such, that kind of mentality is morally skewed and why a lot of people would not support sex work. plus you can’t say it makes sense for sex workers to be see as commodities only and then believe sex work will be consensual. the whole consent part comes from recognizing that this is another person who has their own boundaries and limits beyond just what you want.",
">\n\nokay, that’s a plumber and not a person you’re having sex with. unlike plumbing which is clean cut, sex can include multiple aspects of different kinks and fetishes. You can’t expect a sex worker to be okay with say participating in rape play, anal, scat, and a mirage of other kinks simply because they agreed to sex. Sex is not clean cut, there is more to it. There has to be a boundary somewhere, this is another person body not a pipe.",
">\n\nThat’s like the point? recognizing the boundary and proceeding from there by RESPECTING the boundary because they are another person and not some masturbatory object. What you just said was a consensual interaction. The initial point was that there is no consensual sex without respecting the party that’s giving as a person.",
">\n\nSo... there's a concept of a moral hazard. \nThere's literally no way for an individual to be certain that their prostitute is not being coerced/trafficked. Even if there are some special circumstances where it might be unlikely, certainty is still impossible, and most people frequenting prostitutes are not in those special circumstances.\nSomeone using their services is therefore extremely likely to be comfortable with risking that they are unknowingly raping someone. \nGenerally speaking, people find that disgusting.",
">\n\nIf you eat chocolate (even the stuff with the fair trade sticker) then there's no guarantee that it hasn't come from slave farms which are not uncommon. If you eat chocolate throughout your life then you are almost definitely contributing to slavery. If you visit a prostitute regularly then the chance they're being exploited is anywhere from functioninally 0% to 100%. So why treat the John who might be discerning with scorn and not the chocolate eater who is a much safer bet in having contributed to coerced labour.",
">\n\nIt's worth trying to avoid those situations, but ultimately it's a very false equivalence to hold people responsible for the actions of others, vs. their own personal actions.\nWhen you buy chocolate, you're not actually holding a gun to a slave, someone else is. The right answer to that is to lobby for worker protections for imported goods, and to try to end involuntary servitude within your country as well. \nWhen you have sex with a trafficked person, you personally literally raped them. If you don't have good evidence to know they aren't trafficked, you're personally ok with the possibility you're going to personally rape them. \nBoth might be considered bad. But it's a false equivalence.\nAnd sure... if someone is paying someone for sex when they are personal friends with them, and interact with them outside of prostitution enough to personally know that they aren't being trafficked... and you're sure they aren't lying, scorning them more than at most some light ribbing isn't justified. It's not like \"sugar daddies\" aren't a thing as well. At the very least much less disapprobation would be appropriate.",
">\n\nIn both cases, there is a customer receiving a service provided by a potentially enslaved person. They are morally equivalent. It makes no sense to say “sure I bought the slavery chocolate, but you can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”",
">\n\n\nyou can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”\n\nThe slavers actions are distinct from the consumers' actions for most things. \nThis is an actual important difference when it comes to prostitution. \nIgnoring that fundamental difference doesn't make it go away, and it's entirely reasonable for someone to make that distinction.",
">\n\nThe slaver and consumer are different people who take different actions in the prostitution scenario. The consumer in both scenarios is taking the risk of being immoral. If I force you to be my slave that’s still immoral whether or not I put you to work in my brothel or mine or factory or fishing boat. And if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever, it’s equivalent.",
">\n\n\nAnd if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever , it’s equivalent.\n\nThis is where the false equivalence comes in. \nSomeone making products with slave labor is not renting out a slave to the consumer so that they consumer can force them to perform mining for the consumer. They are enslaving the labor to create a product, and selling the product. Products don't have rights to violate. The only person violating the rights of the slave is the slaver.\nSomeone trafficking a victim is renting out that victim so that the consumer can rape them.",
">\n\nIf the sex is only contractual to you? Why not just \"hook up.\" Why pay? You will never be able to guarantee they are not being trafficked. If they are, they are not going to tell you. I think the idea of money exchanging hands for sex is the why most have a problem. The idea that you are giving a woman money for sex has been historically seen as her being a whore. \nI am not saying she is. I am saying that from the time it first exchanged hands, that is what it was. Men who could not find a woman, paid a woman. Why do you want others to see it differently? Yes, there will be outliers that will enjoy the work. But those are going to be ones that, like the escort, chose it, and charge what they want. Not the typical street hookers on the corner with pimps to pay. \nProve they are not trafficked, they work for themselves, they are clean (of both drugs and diseases - because they are taking care of themselves and being safe), and that they are a sex worker because they enjoy the work or that that chose the work. Then, hey! Pay 'em and get to it!"
] |
>
Decriminalizing prostitution for both those selling and buying is demonstrably safer for prostitutes. If it is criminal for the buyer but not the seller, the buyer is often highly defensive and paranoid about the seller, specifically the possibility that they may be working with law enforcement. The buyer will often push to do it in a highly isolated setting as well. These things increase violence that sex workers face, and the averages go down in places where it is decriminalized to both buy and sell. If you have a designated work place for it and no one needs to be distrustful and worried about being arrested, that is the safest situation for all involved.
We may disagree with buying it for whatever moral reason, but if we choose to criminalize the purchase of it, we are prioritizing punishing behavior we morally disagree with over prioritizing the safety of those involved, which I can't get behind.
|
[
"/u/Due-Lie-8710 (OP) has awarded 7 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nThere's a song I like that speaks on this fairly poetically, so I'd like to start by just directly quoting it:\n\nSo when you bled on the bed as you fed those expectations, as a whore and not a human, you embraced with hesitation the very parameters of all you can be. Not a mother, not an aunt, not a sister who's not subdued. Because dignity's not physical, and your flesh means more than you.\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.",
">\n\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.\n\nFirst of all if you aren't trafficked it is just like another job, as for you both being seen as human , make sense hey aren't there to befriend to have sex , you are performing a service, it's like you watching football or a movie, you only see them as footballers ot actors , half of the time they don't care about their personal life, there are some jobs that prevent you from getting any high paying jobs or jobs that involve care , as for the people purchasing it , if you can't purchase it then why should they sell it , you don't actually support sex work, because that would mean accepting the consumer base ad well as the supplier",
">\n\nThat’s a really big if though, sex work isn’t exactly an industry where you will know for sure if the service you’re getting is consensual. individuals who are victims of sexual trafficking, coercion, or just life circumstance aren’t likely to just tell their “customers” if it isn’t consensual. they could endanger themselves or not be aware that they can say something. \nSeeing someone as an object vs seeing them as an individual with a job aren’t the same though? yes we recognize actors and football players by their career choice and how well they are at it, but they’re still people at the end of the day? that’s why they have fanbases, interviews, paparazzi, popularity on social media, movie adaptions of their life exist—people are interested in more than them just doing their job.\nA persons job is no reason to suddenly strip them of their humanity and rights granted them for being such, that kind of mentality is morally skewed and why a lot of people would not support sex work. plus you can’t say it makes sense for sex workers to be see as commodities only and then believe sex work will be consensual. the whole consent part comes from recognizing that this is another person who has their own boundaries and limits beyond just what you want.",
">\n\nokay, that’s a plumber and not a person you’re having sex with. unlike plumbing which is clean cut, sex can include multiple aspects of different kinks and fetishes. You can’t expect a sex worker to be okay with say participating in rape play, anal, scat, and a mirage of other kinks simply because they agreed to sex. Sex is not clean cut, there is more to it. There has to be a boundary somewhere, this is another person body not a pipe.",
">\n\nThat’s like the point? recognizing the boundary and proceeding from there by RESPECTING the boundary because they are another person and not some masturbatory object. What you just said was a consensual interaction. The initial point was that there is no consensual sex without respecting the party that’s giving as a person.",
">\n\nSo... there's a concept of a moral hazard. \nThere's literally no way for an individual to be certain that their prostitute is not being coerced/trafficked. Even if there are some special circumstances where it might be unlikely, certainty is still impossible, and most people frequenting prostitutes are not in those special circumstances.\nSomeone using their services is therefore extremely likely to be comfortable with risking that they are unknowingly raping someone. \nGenerally speaking, people find that disgusting.",
">\n\nIf you eat chocolate (even the stuff with the fair trade sticker) then there's no guarantee that it hasn't come from slave farms which are not uncommon. If you eat chocolate throughout your life then you are almost definitely contributing to slavery. If you visit a prostitute regularly then the chance they're being exploited is anywhere from functioninally 0% to 100%. So why treat the John who might be discerning with scorn and not the chocolate eater who is a much safer bet in having contributed to coerced labour.",
">\n\nIt's worth trying to avoid those situations, but ultimately it's a very false equivalence to hold people responsible for the actions of others, vs. their own personal actions.\nWhen you buy chocolate, you're not actually holding a gun to a slave, someone else is. The right answer to that is to lobby for worker protections for imported goods, and to try to end involuntary servitude within your country as well. \nWhen you have sex with a trafficked person, you personally literally raped them. If you don't have good evidence to know they aren't trafficked, you're personally ok with the possibility you're going to personally rape them. \nBoth might be considered bad. But it's a false equivalence.\nAnd sure... if someone is paying someone for sex when they are personal friends with them, and interact with them outside of prostitution enough to personally know that they aren't being trafficked... and you're sure they aren't lying, scorning them more than at most some light ribbing isn't justified. It's not like \"sugar daddies\" aren't a thing as well. At the very least much less disapprobation would be appropriate.",
">\n\nIn both cases, there is a customer receiving a service provided by a potentially enslaved person. They are morally equivalent. It makes no sense to say “sure I bought the slavery chocolate, but you can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”",
">\n\n\nyou can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”\n\nThe slavers actions are distinct from the consumers' actions for most things. \nThis is an actual important difference when it comes to prostitution. \nIgnoring that fundamental difference doesn't make it go away, and it's entirely reasonable for someone to make that distinction.",
">\n\nThe slaver and consumer are different people who take different actions in the prostitution scenario. The consumer in both scenarios is taking the risk of being immoral. If I force you to be my slave that’s still immoral whether or not I put you to work in my brothel or mine or factory or fishing boat. And if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever, it’s equivalent.",
">\n\n\nAnd if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever , it’s equivalent.\n\nThis is where the false equivalence comes in. \nSomeone making products with slave labor is not renting out a slave to the consumer so that they consumer can force them to perform mining for the consumer. They are enslaving the labor to create a product, and selling the product. Products don't have rights to violate. The only person violating the rights of the slave is the slaver.\nSomeone trafficking a victim is renting out that victim so that the consumer can rape them.",
">\n\nIf the sex is only contractual to you? Why not just \"hook up.\" Why pay? You will never be able to guarantee they are not being trafficked. If they are, they are not going to tell you. I think the idea of money exchanging hands for sex is the why most have a problem. The idea that you are giving a woman money for sex has been historically seen as her being a whore. \nI am not saying she is. I am saying that from the time it first exchanged hands, that is what it was. Men who could not find a woman, paid a woman. Why do you want others to see it differently? Yes, there will be outliers that will enjoy the work. But those are going to be ones that, like the escort, chose it, and charge what they want. Not the typical street hookers on the corner with pimps to pay. \nProve they are not trafficked, they work for themselves, they are clean (of both drugs and diseases - because they are taking care of themselves and being safe), and that they are a sex worker because they enjoy the work or that that chose the work. Then, hey! Pay 'em and get to it!",
">\n\nI think it is morally unhealthy to normalize it. Even though you have to be an adult to smoke weed, we definitely see weed as a normal thing to do in moderation compared to a few decades ago. This is how we would see prostitution if it was normalized. And I think weed has a lot less complications than legalizing prostitution. A LOT!\nSex work online is a lot safer and requires a lot less mental issues to engage in and promote. But even then, I know some sex workers (online type), and they are scarred by the stuff they have seen when it comes to their job. They have told me stories that are extremely disturbing. These are women who just do stuff by themselves. Not working with a porn company and other people.\nAlso, sex has a huge reputation for being violent and demoralizing towards women in general. I'd assume those numbers would be much higher in men looking to pay for sex. You'd have to have extremely strict and tight regulations for this sort of thing, which would take the fun out of it for a lot of people. And even then, there would still be many mistakes that would happen before we find out all the regulations that are needed. And I don't think we could ever make it mentally and physically safe for women.\nNow, do I think it should be decriminalized for prostitutes? Definitely. I don't see them as disgusting. I feel quite bad for them. Most of them were trafficked at a young age. Do I see men wanting to pay for sex as disgusting? Not necessarily. It depends on the person and the situation. However, this isn't a simple issue where if we just \"stop judging people,\" everything will be fine."
] |
>
But there are so many more facets to the safety of legalizing it for the buyer other than them being pushy or wanting to do it in a hidden area. If we legalized it, it still wouldn't really help any of the points I made or is even something that is so overwhelmingly an issue compared to the points I made.
|
[
"/u/Due-Lie-8710 (OP) has awarded 7 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nThere's a song I like that speaks on this fairly poetically, so I'd like to start by just directly quoting it:\n\nSo when you bled on the bed as you fed those expectations, as a whore and not a human, you embraced with hesitation the very parameters of all you can be. Not a mother, not an aunt, not a sister who's not subdued. Because dignity's not physical, and your flesh means more than you.\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.",
">\n\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.\n\nFirst of all if you aren't trafficked it is just like another job, as for you both being seen as human , make sense hey aren't there to befriend to have sex , you are performing a service, it's like you watching football or a movie, you only see them as footballers ot actors , half of the time they don't care about their personal life, there are some jobs that prevent you from getting any high paying jobs or jobs that involve care , as for the people purchasing it , if you can't purchase it then why should they sell it , you don't actually support sex work, because that would mean accepting the consumer base ad well as the supplier",
">\n\nThat’s a really big if though, sex work isn’t exactly an industry where you will know for sure if the service you’re getting is consensual. individuals who are victims of sexual trafficking, coercion, or just life circumstance aren’t likely to just tell their “customers” if it isn’t consensual. they could endanger themselves or not be aware that they can say something. \nSeeing someone as an object vs seeing them as an individual with a job aren’t the same though? yes we recognize actors and football players by their career choice and how well they are at it, but they’re still people at the end of the day? that’s why they have fanbases, interviews, paparazzi, popularity on social media, movie adaptions of their life exist—people are interested in more than them just doing their job.\nA persons job is no reason to suddenly strip them of their humanity and rights granted them for being such, that kind of mentality is morally skewed and why a lot of people would not support sex work. plus you can’t say it makes sense for sex workers to be see as commodities only and then believe sex work will be consensual. the whole consent part comes from recognizing that this is another person who has their own boundaries and limits beyond just what you want.",
">\n\nokay, that’s a plumber and not a person you’re having sex with. unlike plumbing which is clean cut, sex can include multiple aspects of different kinks and fetishes. You can’t expect a sex worker to be okay with say participating in rape play, anal, scat, and a mirage of other kinks simply because they agreed to sex. Sex is not clean cut, there is more to it. There has to be a boundary somewhere, this is another person body not a pipe.",
">\n\nThat’s like the point? recognizing the boundary and proceeding from there by RESPECTING the boundary because they are another person and not some masturbatory object. What you just said was a consensual interaction. The initial point was that there is no consensual sex without respecting the party that’s giving as a person.",
">\n\nSo... there's a concept of a moral hazard. \nThere's literally no way for an individual to be certain that their prostitute is not being coerced/trafficked. Even if there are some special circumstances where it might be unlikely, certainty is still impossible, and most people frequenting prostitutes are not in those special circumstances.\nSomeone using their services is therefore extremely likely to be comfortable with risking that they are unknowingly raping someone. \nGenerally speaking, people find that disgusting.",
">\n\nIf you eat chocolate (even the stuff with the fair trade sticker) then there's no guarantee that it hasn't come from slave farms which are not uncommon. If you eat chocolate throughout your life then you are almost definitely contributing to slavery. If you visit a prostitute regularly then the chance they're being exploited is anywhere from functioninally 0% to 100%. So why treat the John who might be discerning with scorn and not the chocolate eater who is a much safer bet in having contributed to coerced labour.",
">\n\nIt's worth trying to avoid those situations, but ultimately it's a very false equivalence to hold people responsible for the actions of others, vs. their own personal actions.\nWhen you buy chocolate, you're not actually holding a gun to a slave, someone else is. The right answer to that is to lobby for worker protections for imported goods, and to try to end involuntary servitude within your country as well. \nWhen you have sex with a trafficked person, you personally literally raped them. If you don't have good evidence to know they aren't trafficked, you're personally ok with the possibility you're going to personally rape them. \nBoth might be considered bad. But it's a false equivalence.\nAnd sure... if someone is paying someone for sex when they are personal friends with them, and interact with them outside of prostitution enough to personally know that they aren't being trafficked... and you're sure they aren't lying, scorning them more than at most some light ribbing isn't justified. It's not like \"sugar daddies\" aren't a thing as well. At the very least much less disapprobation would be appropriate.",
">\n\nIn both cases, there is a customer receiving a service provided by a potentially enslaved person. They are morally equivalent. It makes no sense to say “sure I bought the slavery chocolate, but you can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”",
">\n\n\nyou can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”\n\nThe slavers actions are distinct from the consumers' actions for most things. \nThis is an actual important difference when it comes to prostitution. \nIgnoring that fundamental difference doesn't make it go away, and it's entirely reasonable for someone to make that distinction.",
">\n\nThe slaver and consumer are different people who take different actions in the prostitution scenario. The consumer in both scenarios is taking the risk of being immoral. If I force you to be my slave that’s still immoral whether or not I put you to work in my brothel or mine or factory or fishing boat. And if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever, it’s equivalent.",
">\n\n\nAnd if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever , it’s equivalent.\n\nThis is where the false equivalence comes in. \nSomeone making products with slave labor is not renting out a slave to the consumer so that they consumer can force them to perform mining for the consumer. They are enslaving the labor to create a product, and selling the product. Products don't have rights to violate. The only person violating the rights of the slave is the slaver.\nSomeone trafficking a victim is renting out that victim so that the consumer can rape them.",
">\n\nIf the sex is only contractual to you? Why not just \"hook up.\" Why pay? You will never be able to guarantee they are not being trafficked. If they are, they are not going to tell you. I think the idea of money exchanging hands for sex is the why most have a problem. The idea that you are giving a woman money for sex has been historically seen as her being a whore. \nI am not saying she is. I am saying that from the time it first exchanged hands, that is what it was. Men who could not find a woman, paid a woman. Why do you want others to see it differently? Yes, there will be outliers that will enjoy the work. But those are going to be ones that, like the escort, chose it, and charge what they want. Not the typical street hookers on the corner with pimps to pay. \nProve they are not trafficked, they work for themselves, they are clean (of both drugs and diseases - because they are taking care of themselves and being safe), and that they are a sex worker because they enjoy the work or that that chose the work. Then, hey! Pay 'em and get to it!",
">\n\nI think it is morally unhealthy to normalize it. Even though you have to be an adult to smoke weed, we definitely see weed as a normal thing to do in moderation compared to a few decades ago. This is how we would see prostitution if it was normalized. And I think weed has a lot less complications than legalizing prostitution. A LOT!\nSex work online is a lot safer and requires a lot less mental issues to engage in and promote. But even then, I know some sex workers (online type), and they are scarred by the stuff they have seen when it comes to their job. They have told me stories that are extremely disturbing. These are women who just do stuff by themselves. Not working with a porn company and other people.\nAlso, sex has a huge reputation for being violent and demoralizing towards women in general. I'd assume those numbers would be much higher in men looking to pay for sex. You'd have to have extremely strict and tight regulations for this sort of thing, which would take the fun out of it for a lot of people. And even then, there would still be many mistakes that would happen before we find out all the regulations that are needed. And I don't think we could ever make it mentally and physically safe for women.\nNow, do I think it should be decriminalized for prostitutes? Definitely. I don't see them as disgusting. I feel quite bad for them. Most of them were trafficked at a young age. Do I see men wanting to pay for sex as disgusting? Not necessarily. It depends on the person and the situation. However, this isn't a simple issue where if we just \"stop judging people,\" everything will be fine.",
">\n\nDecriminalizing prostitution for both those selling and buying is demonstrably safer for prostitutes. If it is criminal for the buyer but not the seller, the buyer is often highly defensive and paranoid about the seller, specifically the possibility that they may be working with law enforcement. The buyer will often push to do it in a highly isolated setting as well. These things increase violence that sex workers face, and the averages go down in places where it is decriminalized to both buy and sell. If you have a designated work place for it and no one needs to be distrustful and worried about being arrested, that is the safest situation for all involved. \nWe may disagree with buying it for whatever moral reason, but if we choose to criminalize the purchase of it, we are prioritizing punishing behavior we morally disagree with over prioritizing the safety of those involved, which I can't get behind."
] |
>
So long as we have to work to live, all jobs are coercive, even sex work. I’m skeptical that there can ever be a consensual exchange within our current economic context.
|
[
"/u/Due-Lie-8710 (OP) has awarded 7 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nThere's a song I like that speaks on this fairly poetically, so I'd like to start by just directly quoting it:\n\nSo when you bled on the bed as you fed those expectations, as a whore and not a human, you embraced with hesitation the very parameters of all you can be. Not a mother, not an aunt, not a sister who's not subdued. Because dignity's not physical, and your flesh means more than you.\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.",
">\n\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.\n\nFirst of all if you aren't trafficked it is just like another job, as for you both being seen as human , make sense hey aren't there to befriend to have sex , you are performing a service, it's like you watching football or a movie, you only see them as footballers ot actors , half of the time they don't care about their personal life, there are some jobs that prevent you from getting any high paying jobs or jobs that involve care , as for the people purchasing it , if you can't purchase it then why should they sell it , you don't actually support sex work, because that would mean accepting the consumer base ad well as the supplier",
">\n\nThat’s a really big if though, sex work isn’t exactly an industry where you will know for sure if the service you’re getting is consensual. individuals who are victims of sexual trafficking, coercion, or just life circumstance aren’t likely to just tell their “customers” if it isn’t consensual. they could endanger themselves or not be aware that they can say something. \nSeeing someone as an object vs seeing them as an individual with a job aren’t the same though? yes we recognize actors and football players by their career choice and how well they are at it, but they’re still people at the end of the day? that’s why they have fanbases, interviews, paparazzi, popularity on social media, movie adaptions of their life exist—people are interested in more than them just doing their job.\nA persons job is no reason to suddenly strip them of their humanity and rights granted them for being such, that kind of mentality is morally skewed and why a lot of people would not support sex work. plus you can’t say it makes sense for sex workers to be see as commodities only and then believe sex work will be consensual. the whole consent part comes from recognizing that this is another person who has their own boundaries and limits beyond just what you want.",
">\n\nokay, that’s a plumber and not a person you’re having sex with. unlike plumbing which is clean cut, sex can include multiple aspects of different kinks and fetishes. You can’t expect a sex worker to be okay with say participating in rape play, anal, scat, and a mirage of other kinks simply because they agreed to sex. Sex is not clean cut, there is more to it. There has to be a boundary somewhere, this is another person body not a pipe.",
">\n\nThat’s like the point? recognizing the boundary and proceeding from there by RESPECTING the boundary because they are another person and not some masturbatory object. What you just said was a consensual interaction. The initial point was that there is no consensual sex without respecting the party that’s giving as a person.",
">\n\nSo... there's a concept of a moral hazard. \nThere's literally no way for an individual to be certain that their prostitute is not being coerced/trafficked. Even if there are some special circumstances where it might be unlikely, certainty is still impossible, and most people frequenting prostitutes are not in those special circumstances.\nSomeone using their services is therefore extremely likely to be comfortable with risking that they are unknowingly raping someone. \nGenerally speaking, people find that disgusting.",
">\n\nIf you eat chocolate (even the stuff with the fair trade sticker) then there's no guarantee that it hasn't come from slave farms which are not uncommon. If you eat chocolate throughout your life then you are almost definitely contributing to slavery. If you visit a prostitute regularly then the chance they're being exploited is anywhere from functioninally 0% to 100%. So why treat the John who might be discerning with scorn and not the chocolate eater who is a much safer bet in having contributed to coerced labour.",
">\n\nIt's worth trying to avoid those situations, but ultimately it's a very false equivalence to hold people responsible for the actions of others, vs. their own personal actions.\nWhen you buy chocolate, you're not actually holding a gun to a slave, someone else is. The right answer to that is to lobby for worker protections for imported goods, and to try to end involuntary servitude within your country as well. \nWhen you have sex with a trafficked person, you personally literally raped them. If you don't have good evidence to know they aren't trafficked, you're personally ok with the possibility you're going to personally rape them. \nBoth might be considered bad. But it's a false equivalence.\nAnd sure... if someone is paying someone for sex when they are personal friends with them, and interact with them outside of prostitution enough to personally know that they aren't being trafficked... and you're sure they aren't lying, scorning them more than at most some light ribbing isn't justified. It's not like \"sugar daddies\" aren't a thing as well. At the very least much less disapprobation would be appropriate.",
">\n\nIn both cases, there is a customer receiving a service provided by a potentially enslaved person. They are morally equivalent. It makes no sense to say “sure I bought the slavery chocolate, but you can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”",
">\n\n\nyou can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”\n\nThe slavers actions are distinct from the consumers' actions for most things. \nThis is an actual important difference when it comes to prostitution. \nIgnoring that fundamental difference doesn't make it go away, and it's entirely reasonable for someone to make that distinction.",
">\n\nThe slaver and consumer are different people who take different actions in the prostitution scenario. The consumer in both scenarios is taking the risk of being immoral. If I force you to be my slave that’s still immoral whether or not I put you to work in my brothel or mine or factory or fishing boat. And if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever, it’s equivalent.",
">\n\n\nAnd if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever , it’s equivalent.\n\nThis is where the false equivalence comes in. \nSomeone making products with slave labor is not renting out a slave to the consumer so that they consumer can force them to perform mining for the consumer. They are enslaving the labor to create a product, and selling the product. Products don't have rights to violate. The only person violating the rights of the slave is the slaver.\nSomeone trafficking a victim is renting out that victim so that the consumer can rape them.",
">\n\nIf the sex is only contractual to you? Why not just \"hook up.\" Why pay? You will never be able to guarantee they are not being trafficked. If they are, they are not going to tell you. I think the idea of money exchanging hands for sex is the why most have a problem. The idea that you are giving a woman money for sex has been historically seen as her being a whore. \nI am not saying she is. I am saying that from the time it first exchanged hands, that is what it was. Men who could not find a woman, paid a woman. Why do you want others to see it differently? Yes, there will be outliers that will enjoy the work. But those are going to be ones that, like the escort, chose it, and charge what they want. Not the typical street hookers on the corner with pimps to pay. \nProve they are not trafficked, they work for themselves, they are clean (of both drugs and diseases - because they are taking care of themselves and being safe), and that they are a sex worker because they enjoy the work or that that chose the work. Then, hey! Pay 'em and get to it!",
">\n\nI think it is morally unhealthy to normalize it. Even though you have to be an adult to smoke weed, we definitely see weed as a normal thing to do in moderation compared to a few decades ago. This is how we would see prostitution if it was normalized. And I think weed has a lot less complications than legalizing prostitution. A LOT!\nSex work online is a lot safer and requires a lot less mental issues to engage in and promote. But even then, I know some sex workers (online type), and they are scarred by the stuff they have seen when it comes to their job. They have told me stories that are extremely disturbing. These are women who just do stuff by themselves. Not working with a porn company and other people.\nAlso, sex has a huge reputation for being violent and demoralizing towards women in general. I'd assume those numbers would be much higher in men looking to pay for sex. You'd have to have extremely strict and tight regulations for this sort of thing, which would take the fun out of it for a lot of people. And even then, there would still be many mistakes that would happen before we find out all the regulations that are needed. And I don't think we could ever make it mentally and physically safe for women.\nNow, do I think it should be decriminalized for prostitutes? Definitely. I don't see them as disgusting. I feel quite bad for them. Most of them were trafficked at a young age. Do I see men wanting to pay for sex as disgusting? Not necessarily. It depends on the person and the situation. However, this isn't a simple issue where if we just \"stop judging people,\" everything will be fine.",
">\n\nDecriminalizing prostitution for both those selling and buying is demonstrably safer for prostitutes. If it is criminal for the buyer but not the seller, the buyer is often highly defensive and paranoid about the seller, specifically the possibility that they may be working with law enforcement. The buyer will often push to do it in a highly isolated setting as well. These things increase violence that sex workers face, and the averages go down in places where it is decriminalized to both buy and sell. If you have a designated work place for it and no one needs to be distrustful and worried about being arrested, that is the safest situation for all involved. \nWe may disagree with buying it for whatever moral reason, but if we choose to criminalize the purchase of it, we are prioritizing punishing behavior we morally disagree with over prioritizing the safety of those involved, which I can't get behind.",
">\n\nBut there are so many more facets to the safety of legalizing it for the buyer other than them being pushy or wanting to do it in a hidden area. If we legalized it, it still wouldn't really help any of the points I made or is even something that is so overwhelmingly an issue compared to the points I made."
] |
>
Exactly , I get sex is intimate but if you are willing to view sex work as any other job , you should be willing to treat it as such
|
[
"/u/Due-Lie-8710 (OP) has awarded 7 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nThere's a song I like that speaks on this fairly poetically, so I'd like to start by just directly quoting it:\n\nSo when you bled on the bed as you fed those expectations, as a whore and not a human, you embraced with hesitation the very parameters of all you can be. Not a mother, not an aunt, not a sister who's not subdued. Because dignity's not physical, and your flesh means more than you.\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.",
">\n\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.\n\nFirst of all if you aren't trafficked it is just like another job, as for you both being seen as human , make sense hey aren't there to befriend to have sex , you are performing a service, it's like you watching football or a movie, you only see them as footballers ot actors , half of the time they don't care about their personal life, there are some jobs that prevent you from getting any high paying jobs or jobs that involve care , as for the people purchasing it , if you can't purchase it then why should they sell it , you don't actually support sex work, because that would mean accepting the consumer base ad well as the supplier",
">\n\nThat’s a really big if though, sex work isn’t exactly an industry where you will know for sure if the service you’re getting is consensual. individuals who are victims of sexual trafficking, coercion, or just life circumstance aren’t likely to just tell their “customers” if it isn’t consensual. they could endanger themselves or not be aware that they can say something. \nSeeing someone as an object vs seeing them as an individual with a job aren’t the same though? yes we recognize actors and football players by their career choice and how well they are at it, but they’re still people at the end of the day? that’s why they have fanbases, interviews, paparazzi, popularity on social media, movie adaptions of their life exist—people are interested in more than them just doing their job.\nA persons job is no reason to suddenly strip them of their humanity and rights granted them for being such, that kind of mentality is morally skewed and why a lot of people would not support sex work. plus you can’t say it makes sense for sex workers to be see as commodities only and then believe sex work will be consensual. the whole consent part comes from recognizing that this is another person who has their own boundaries and limits beyond just what you want.",
">\n\nokay, that’s a plumber and not a person you’re having sex with. unlike plumbing which is clean cut, sex can include multiple aspects of different kinks and fetishes. You can’t expect a sex worker to be okay with say participating in rape play, anal, scat, and a mirage of other kinks simply because they agreed to sex. Sex is not clean cut, there is more to it. There has to be a boundary somewhere, this is another person body not a pipe.",
">\n\nThat’s like the point? recognizing the boundary and proceeding from there by RESPECTING the boundary because they are another person and not some masturbatory object. What you just said was a consensual interaction. The initial point was that there is no consensual sex without respecting the party that’s giving as a person.",
">\n\nSo... there's a concept of a moral hazard. \nThere's literally no way for an individual to be certain that their prostitute is not being coerced/trafficked. Even if there are some special circumstances where it might be unlikely, certainty is still impossible, and most people frequenting prostitutes are not in those special circumstances.\nSomeone using their services is therefore extremely likely to be comfortable with risking that they are unknowingly raping someone. \nGenerally speaking, people find that disgusting.",
">\n\nIf you eat chocolate (even the stuff with the fair trade sticker) then there's no guarantee that it hasn't come from slave farms which are not uncommon. If you eat chocolate throughout your life then you are almost definitely contributing to slavery. If you visit a prostitute regularly then the chance they're being exploited is anywhere from functioninally 0% to 100%. So why treat the John who might be discerning with scorn and not the chocolate eater who is a much safer bet in having contributed to coerced labour.",
">\n\nIt's worth trying to avoid those situations, but ultimately it's a very false equivalence to hold people responsible for the actions of others, vs. their own personal actions.\nWhen you buy chocolate, you're not actually holding a gun to a slave, someone else is. The right answer to that is to lobby for worker protections for imported goods, and to try to end involuntary servitude within your country as well. \nWhen you have sex with a trafficked person, you personally literally raped them. If you don't have good evidence to know they aren't trafficked, you're personally ok with the possibility you're going to personally rape them. \nBoth might be considered bad. But it's a false equivalence.\nAnd sure... if someone is paying someone for sex when they are personal friends with them, and interact with them outside of prostitution enough to personally know that they aren't being trafficked... and you're sure they aren't lying, scorning them more than at most some light ribbing isn't justified. It's not like \"sugar daddies\" aren't a thing as well. At the very least much less disapprobation would be appropriate.",
">\n\nIn both cases, there is a customer receiving a service provided by a potentially enslaved person. They are morally equivalent. It makes no sense to say “sure I bought the slavery chocolate, but you can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”",
">\n\n\nyou can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”\n\nThe slavers actions are distinct from the consumers' actions for most things. \nThis is an actual important difference when it comes to prostitution. \nIgnoring that fundamental difference doesn't make it go away, and it's entirely reasonable for someone to make that distinction.",
">\n\nThe slaver and consumer are different people who take different actions in the prostitution scenario. The consumer in both scenarios is taking the risk of being immoral. If I force you to be my slave that’s still immoral whether or not I put you to work in my brothel or mine or factory or fishing boat. And if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever, it’s equivalent.",
">\n\n\nAnd if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever , it’s equivalent.\n\nThis is where the false equivalence comes in. \nSomeone making products with slave labor is not renting out a slave to the consumer so that they consumer can force them to perform mining for the consumer. They are enslaving the labor to create a product, and selling the product. Products don't have rights to violate. The only person violating the rights of the slave is the slaver.\nSomeone trafficking a victim is renting out that victim so that the consumer can rape them.",
">\n\nIf the sex is only contractual to you? Why not just \"hook up.\" Why pay? You will never be able to guarantee they are not being trafficked. If they are, they are not going to tell you. I think the idea of money exchanging hands for sex is the why most have a problem. The idea that you are giving a woman money for sex has been historically seen as her being a whore. \nI am not saying she is. I am saying that from the time it first exchanged hands, that is what it was. Men who could not find a woman, paid a woman. Why do you want others to see it differently? Yes, there will be outliers that will enjoy the work. But those are going to be ones that, like the escort, chose it, and charge what they want. Not the typical street hookers on the corner with pimps to pay. \nProve they are not trafficked, they work for themselves, they are clean (of both drugs and diseases - because they are taking care of themselves and being safe), and that they are a sex worker because they enjoy the work or that that chose the work. Then, hey! Pay 'em and get to it!",
">\n\nI think it is morally unhealthy to normalize it. Even though you have to be an adult to smoke weed, we definitely see weed as a normal thing to do in moderation compared to a few decades ago. This is how we would see prostitution if it was normalized. And I think weed has a lot less complications than legalizing prostitution. A LOT!\nSex work online is a lot safer and requires a lot less mental issues to engage in and promote. But even then, I know some sex workers (online type), and they are scarred by the stuff they have seen when it comes to their job. They have told me stories that are extremely disturbing. These are women who just do stuff by themselves. Not working with a porn company and other people.\nAlso, sex has a huge reputation for being violent and demoralizing towards women in general. I'd assume those numbers would be much higher in men looking to pay for sex. You'd have to have extremely strict and tight regulations for this sort of thing, which would take the fun out of it for a lot of people. And even then, there would still be many mistakes that would happen before we find out all the regulations that are needed. And I don't think we could ever make it mentally and physically safe for women.\nNow, do I think it should be decriminalized for prostitutes? Definitely. I don't see them as disgusting. I feel quite bad for them. Most of them were trafficked at a young age. Do I see men wanting to pay for sex as disgusting? Not necessarily. It depends on the person and the situation. However, this isn't a simple issue where if we just \"stop judging people,\" everything will be fine.",
">\n\nDecriminalizing prostitution for both those selling and buying is demonstrably safer for prostitutes. If it is criminal for the buyer but not the seller, the buyer is often highly defensive and paranoid about the seller, specifically the possibility that they may be working with law enforcement. The buyer will often push to do it in a highly isolated setting as well. These things increase violence that sex workers face, and the averages go down in places where it is decriminalized to both buy and sell. If you have a designated work place for it and no one needs to be distrustful and worried about being arrested, that is the safest situation for all involved. \nWe may disagree with buying it for whatever moral reason, but if we choose to criminalize the purchase of it, we are prioritizing punishing behavior we morally disagree with over prioritizing the safety of those involved, which I can't get behind.",
">\n\nBut there are so many more facets to the safety of legalizing it for the buyer other than them being pushy or wanting to do it in a hidden area. If we legalized it, it still wouldn't really help any of the points I made or is even something that is so overwhelmingly an issue compared to the points I made.",
">\n\nSo long as we have to work to live, all jobs are coercive, even sex work. I’m skeptical that there can ever be a consensual exchange within our current economic context."
] |
>
Sex work has certain occupational hazards that cannot be regulated away. OSHA (in the US) dictates that a person cannot be subject to bodily fluids without proper PPE in the workplace, and often johns just need to pay more to not wear a condom. Imagine a construction site paying workers more to not wear a hard hat. The greater potential for bodily harm is intrinsic to the work, and it will always be unsafe.
|
[
"/u/Due-Lie-8710 (OP) has awarded 7 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nThere's a song I like that speaks on this fairly poetically, so I'd like to start by just directly quoting it:\n\nSo when you bled on the bed as you fed those expectations, as a whore and not a human, you embraced with hesitation the very parameters of all you can be. Not a mother, not an aunt, not a sister who's not subdued. Because dignity's not physical, and your flesh means more than you.\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.",
">\n\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.\n\nFirst of all if you aren't trafficked it is just like another job, as for you both being seen as human , make sense hey aren't there to befriend to have sex , you are performing a service, it's like you watching football or a movie, you only see them as footballers ot actors , half of the time they don't care about their personal life, there are some jobs that prevent you from getting any high paying jobs or jobs that involve care , as for the people purchasing it , if you can't purchase it then why should they sell it , you don't actually support sex work, because that would mean accepting the consumer base ad well as the supplier",
">\n\nThat’s a really big if though, sex work isn’t exactly an industry where you will know for sure if the service you’re getting is consensual. individuals who are victims of sexual trafficking, coercion, or just life circumstance aren’t likely to just tell their “customers” if it isn’t consensual. they could endanger themselves or not be aware that they can say something. \nSeeing someone as an object vs seeing them as an individual with a job aren’t the same though? yes we recognize actors and football players by their career choice and how well they are at it, but they’re still people at the end of the day? that’s why they have fanbases, interviews, paparazzi, popularity on social media, movie adaptions of their life exist—people are interested in more than them just doing their job.\nA persons job is no reason to suddenly strip them of their humanity and rights granted them for being such, that kind of mentality is morally skewed and why a lot of people would not support sex work. plus you can’t say it makes sense for sex workers to be see as commodities only and then believe sex work will be consensual. the whole consent part comes from recognizing that this is another person who has their own boundaries and limits beyond just what you want.",
">\n\nokay, that’s a plumber and not a person you’re having sex with. unlike plumbing which is clean cut, sex can include multiple aspects of different kinks and fetishes. You can’t expect a sex worker to be okay with say participating in rape play, anal, scat, and a mirage of other kinks simply because they agreed to sex. Sex is not clean cut, there is more to it. There has to be a boundary somewhere, this is another person body not a pipe.",
">\n\nThat’s like the point? recognizing the boundary and proceeding from there by RESPECTING the boundary because they are another person and not some masturbatory object. What you just said was a consensual interaction. The initial point was that there is no consensual sex without respecting the party that’s giving as a person.",
">\n\nSo... there's a concept of a moral hazard. \nThere's literally no way for an individual to be certain that their prostitute is not being coerced/trafficked. Even if there are some special circumstances where it might be unlikely, certainty is still impossible, and most people frequenting prostitutes are not in those special circumstances.\nSomeone using their services is therefore extremely likely to be comfortable with risking that they are unknowingly raping someone. \nGenerally speaking, people find that disgusting.",
">\n\nIf you eat chocolate (even the stuff with the fair trade sticker) then there's no guarantee that it hasn't come from slave farms which are not uncommon. If you eat chocolate throughout your life then you are almost definitely contributing to slavery. If you visit a prostitute regularly then the chance they're being exploited is anywhere from functioninally 0% to 100%. So why treat the John who might be discerning with scorn and not the chocolate eater who is a much safer bet in having contributed to coerced labour.",
">\n\nIt's worth trying to avoid those situations, but ultimately it's a very false equivalence to hold people responsible for the actions of others, vs. their own personal actions.\nWhen you buy chocolate, you're not actually holding a gun to a slave, someone else is. The right answer to that is to lobby for worker protections for imported goods, and to try to end involuntary servitude within your country as well. \nWhen you have sex with a trafficked person, you personally literally raped them. If you don't have good evidence to know they aren't trafficked, you're personally ok with the possibility you're going to personally rape them. \nBoth might be considered bad. But it's a false equivalence.\nAnd sure... if someone is paying someone for sex when they are personal friends with them, and interact with them outside of prostitution enough to personally know that they aren't being trafficked... and you're sure they aren't lying, scorning them more than at most some light ribbing isn't justified. It's not like \"sugar daddies\" aren't a thing as well. At the very least much less disapprobation would be appropriate.",
">\n\nIn both cases, there is a customer receiving a service provided by a potentially enslaved person. They are morally equivalent. It makes no sense to say “sure I bought the slavery chocolate, but you can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”",
">\n\n\nyou can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”\n\nThe slavers actions are distinct from the consumers' actions for most things. \nThis is an actual important difference when it comes to prostitution. \nIgnoring that fundamental difference doesn't make it go away, and it's entirely reasonable for someone to make that distinction.",
">\n\nThe slaver and consumer are different people who take different actions in the prostitution scenario. The consumer in both scenarios is taking the risk of being immoral. If I force you to be my slave that’s still immoral whether or not I put you to work in my brothel or mine or factory or fishing boat. And if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever, it’s equivalent.",
">\n\n\nAnd if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever , it’s equivalent.\n\nThis is where the false equivalence comes in. \nSomeone making products with slave labor is not renting out a slave to the consumer so that they consumer can force them to perform mining for the consumer. They are enslaving the labor to create a product, and selling the product. Products don't have rights to violate. The only person violating the rights of the slave is the slaver.\nSomeone trafficking a victim is renting out that victim so that the consumer can rape them.",
">\n\nIf the sex is only contractual to you? Why not just \"hook up.\" Why pay? You will never be able to guarantee they are not being trafficked. If they are, they are not going to tell you. I think the idea of money exchanging hands for sex is the why most have a problem. The idea that you are giving a woman money for sex has been historically seen as her being a whore. \nI am not saying she is. I am saying that from the time it first exchanged hands, that is what it was. Men who could not find a woman, paid a woman. Why do you want others to see it differently? Yes, there will be outliers that will enjoy the work. But those are going to be ones that, like the escort, chose it, and charge what they want. Not the typical street hookers on the corner with pimps to pay. \nProve they are not trafficked, they work for themselves, they are clean (of both drugs and diseases - because they are taking care of themselves and being safe), and that they are a sex worker because they enjoy the work or that that chose the work. Then, hey! Pay 'em and get to it!",
">\n\nI think it is morally unhealthy to normalize it. Even though you have to be an adult to smoke weed, we definitely see weed as a normal thing to do in moderation compared to a few decades ago. This is how we would see prostitution if it was normalized. And I think weed has a lot less complications than legalizing prostitution. A LOT!\nSex work online is a lot safer and requires a lot less mental issues to engage in and promote. But even then, I know some sex workers (online type), and they are scarred by the stuff they have seen when it comes to their job. They have told me stories that are extremely disturbing. These are women who just do stuff by themselves. Not working with a porn company and other people.\nAlso, sex has a huge reputation for being violent and demoralizing towards women in general. I'd assume those numbers would be much higher in men looking to pay for sex. You'd have to have extremely strict and tight regulations for this sort of thing, which would take the fun out of it for a lot of people. And even then, there would still be many mistakes that would happen before we find out all the regulations that are needed. And I don't think we could ever make it mentally and physically safe for women.\nNow, do I think it should be decriminalized for prostitutes? Definitely. I don't see them as disgusting. I feel quite bad for them. Most of them were trafficked at a young age. Do I see men wanting to pay for sex as disgusting? Not necessarily. It depends on the person and the situation. However, this isn't a simple issue where if we just \"stop judging people,\" everything will be fine.",
">\n\nDecriminalizing prostitution for both those selling and buying is demonstrably safer for prostitutes. If it is criminal for the buyer but not the seller, the buyer is often highly defensive and paranoid about the seller, specifically the possibility that they may be working with law enforcement. The buyer will often push to do it in a highly isolated setting as well. These things increase violence that sex workers face, and the averages go down in places where it is decriminalized to both buy and sell. If you have a designated work place for it and no one needs to be distrustful and worried about being arrested, that is the safest situation for all involved. \nWe may disagree with buying it for whatever moral reason, but if we choose to criminalize the purchase of it, we are prioritizing punishing behavior we morally disagree with over prioritizing the safety of those involved, which I can't get behind.",
">\n\nBut there are so many more facets to the safety of legalizing it for the buyer other than them being pushy or wanting to do it in a hidden area. If we legalized it, it still wouldn't really help any of the points I made or is even something that is so overwhelmingly an issue compared to the points I made.",
">\n\nSo long as we have to work to live, all jobs are coercive, even sex work. I’m skeptical that there can ever be a consensual exchange within our current economic context.",
">\n\nExactly , I get sex is intimate but if you are willing to view sex work as any other job , you should be willing to treat it as such"
] |
>
True but this doesn't really answer my question
|
[
"/u/Due-Lie-8710 (OP) has awarded 7 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nThere's a song I like that speaks on this fairly poetically, so I'd like to start by just directly quoting it:\n\nSo when you bled on the bed as you fed those expectations, as a whore and not a human, you embraced with hesitation the very parameters of all you can be. Not a mother, not an aunt, not a sister who's not subdued. Because dignity's not physical, and your flesh means more than you.\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.",
">\n\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.\n\nFirst of all if you aren't trafficked it is just like another job, as for you both being seen as human , make sense hey aren't there to befriend to have sex , you are performing a service, it's like you watching football or a movie, you only see them as footballers ot actors , half of the time they don't care about their personal life, there are some jobs that prevent you from getting any high paying jobs or jobs that involve care , as for the people purchasing it , if you can't purchase it then why should they sell it , you don't actually support sex work, because that would mean accepting the consumer base ad well as the supplier",
">\n\nThat’s a really big if though, sex work isn’t exactly an industry where you will know for sure if the service you’re getting is consensual. individuals who are victims of sexual trafficking, coercion, or just life circumstance aren’t likely to just tell their “customers” if it isn’t consensual. they could endanger themselves or not be aware that they can say something. \nSeeing someone as an object vs seeing them as an individual with a job aren’t the same though? yes we recognize actors and football players by their career choice and how well they are at it, but they’re still people at the end of the day? that’s why they have fanbases, interviews, paparazzi, popularity on social media, movie adaptions of their life exist—people are interested in more than them just doing their job.\nA persons job is no reason to suddenly strip them of their humanity and rights granted them for being such, that kind of mentality is morally skewed and why a lot of people would not support sex work. plus you can’t say it makes sense for sex workers to be see as commodities only and then believe sex work will be consensual. the whole consent part comes from recognizing that this is another person who has their own boundaries and limits beyond just what you want.",
">\n\nokay, that’s a plumber and not a person you’re having sex with. unlike plumbing which is clean cut, sex can include multiple aspects of different kinks and fetishes. You can’t expect a sex worker to be okay with say participating in rape play, anal, scat, and a mirage of other kinks simply because they agreed to sex. Sex is not clean cut, there is more to it. There has to be a boundary somewhere, this is another person body not a pipe.",
">\n\nThat’s like the point? recognizing the boundary and proceeding from there by RESPECTING the boundary because they are another person and not some masturbatory object. What you just said was a consensual interaction. The initial point was that there is no consensual sex without respecting the party that’s giving as a person.",
">\n\nSo... there's a concept of a moral hazard. \nThere's literally no way for an individual to be certain that their prostitute is not being coerced/trafficked. Even if there are some special circumstances where it might be unlikely, certainty is still impossible, and most people frequenting prostitutes are not in those special circumstances.\nSomeone using their services is therefore extremely likely to be comfortable with risking that they are unknowingly raping someone. \nGenerally speaking, people find that disgusting.",
">\n\nIf you eat chocolate (even the stuff with the fair trade sticker) then there's no guarantee that it hasn't come from slave farms which are not uncommon. If you eat chocolate throughout your life then you are almost definitely contributing to slavery. If you visit a prostitute regularly then the chance they're being exploited is anywhere from functioninally 0% to 100%. So why treat the John who might be discerning with scorn and not the chocolate eater who is a much safer bet in having contributed to coerced labour.",
">\n\nIt's worth trying to avoid those situations, but ultimately it's a very false equivalence to hold people responsible for the actions of others, vs. their own personal actions.\nWhen you buy chocolate, you're not actually holding a gun to a slave, someone else is. The right answer to that is to lobby for worker protections for imported goods, and to try to end involuntary servitude within your country as well. \nWhen you have sex with a trafficked person, you personally literally raped them. If you don't have good evidence to know they aren't trafficked, you're personally ok with the possibility you're going to personally rape them. \nBoth might be considered bad. But it's a false equivalence.\nAnd sure... if someone is paying someone for sex when they are personal friends with them, and interact with them outside of prostitution enough to personally know that they aren't being trafficked... and you're sure they aren't lying, scorning them more than at most some light ribbing isn't justified. It's not like \"sugar daddies\" aren't a thing as well. At the very least much less disapprobation would be appropriate.",
">\n\nIn both cases, there is a customer receiving a service provided by a potentially enslaved person. They are morally equivalent. It makes no sense to say “sure I bought the slavery chocolate, but you can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”",
">\n\n\nyou can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”\n\nThe slavers actions are distinct from the consumers' actions for most things. \nThis is an actual important difference when it comes to prostitution. \nIgnoring that fundamental difference doesn't make it go away, and it's entirely reasonable for someone to make that distinction.",
">\n\nThe slaver and consumer are different people who take different actions in the prostitution scenario. The consumer in both scenarios is taking the risk of being immoral. If I force you to be my slave that’s still immoral whether or not I put you to work in my brothel or mine or factory or fishing boat. And if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever, it’s equivalent.",
">\n\n\nAnd if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever , it’s equivalent.\n\nThis is where the false equivalence comes in. \nSomeone making products with slave labor is not renting out a slave to the consumer so that they consumer can force them to perform mining for the consumer. They are enslaving the labor to create a product, and selling the product. Products don't have rights to violate. The only person violating the rights of the slave is the slaver.\nSomeone trafficking a victim is renting out that victim so that the consumer can rape them.",
">\n\nIf the sex is only contractual to you? Why not just \"hook up.\" Why pay? You will never be able to guarantee they are not being trafficked. If they are, they are not going to tell you. I think the idea of money exchanging hands for sex is the why most have a problem. The idea that you are giving a woman money for sex has been historically seen as her being a whore. \nI am not saying she is. I am saying that from the time it first exchanged hands, that is what it was. Men who could not find a woman, paid a woman. Why do you want others to see it differently? Yes, there will be outliers that will enjoy the work. But those are going to be ones that, like the escort, chose it, and charge what they want. Not the typical street hookers on the corner with pimps to pay. \nProve they are not trafficked, they work for themselves, they are clean (of both drugs and diseases - because they are taking care of themselves and being safe), and that they are a sex worker because they enjoy the work or that that chose the work. Then, hey! Pay 'em and get to it!",
">\n\nI think it is morally unhealthy to normalize it. Even though you have to be an adult to smoke weed, we definitely see weed as a normal thing to do in moderation compared to a few decades ago. This is how we would see prostitution if it was normalized. And I think weed has a lot less complications than legalizing prostitution. A LOT!\nSex work online is a lot safer and requires a lot less mental issues to engage in and promote. But even then, I know some sex workers (online type), and they are scarred by the stuff they have seen when it comes to their job. They have told me stories that are extremely disturbing. These are women who just do stuff by themselves. Not working with a porn company and other people.\nAlso, sex has a huge reputation for being violent and demoralizing towards women in general. I'd assume those numbers would be much higher in men looking to pay for sex. You'd have to have extremely strict and tight regulations for this sort of thing, which would take the fun out of it for a lot of people. And even then, there would still be many mistakes that would happen before we find out all the regulations that are needed. And I don't think we could ever make it mentally and physically safe for women.\nNow, do I think it should be decriminalized for prostitutes? Definitely. I don't see them as disgusting. I feel quite bad for them. Most of them were trafficked at a young age. Do I see men wanting to pay for sex as disgusting? Not necessarily. It depends on the person and the situation. However, this isn't a simple issue where if we just \"stop judging people,\" everything will be fine.",
">\n\nDecriminalizing prostitution for both those selling and buying is demonstrably safer for prostitutes. If it is criminal for the buyer but not the seller, the buyer is often highly defensive and paranoid about the seller, specifically the possibility that they may be working with law enforcement. The buyer will often push to do it in a highly isolated setting as well. These things increase violence that sex workers face, and the averages go down in places where it is decriminalized to both buy and sell. If you have a designated work place for it and no one needs to be distrustful and worried about being arrested, that is the safest situation for all involved. \nWe may disagree with buying it for whatever moral reason, but if we choose to criminalize the purchase of it, we are prioritizing punishing behavior we morally disagree with over prioritizing the safety of those involved, which I can't get behind.",
">\n\nBut there are so many more facets to the safety of legalizing it for the buyer other than them being pushy or wanting to do it in a hidden area. If we legalized it, it still wouldn't really help any of the points I made or is even something that is so overwhelmingly an issue compared to the points I made.",
">\n\nSo long as we have to work to live, all jobs are coercive, even sex work. I’m skeptical that there can ever be a consensual exchange within our current economic context.",
">\n\nExactly , I get sex is intimate but if you are willing to view sex work as any other job , you should be willing to treat it as such",
">\n\nSex work has certain occupational hazards that cannot be regulated away. OSHA (in the US) dictates that a person cannot be subject to bodily fluids without proper PPE in the workplace, and often johns just need to pay more to not wear a condom. Imagine a construction site paying workers more to not wear a hard hat. The greater potential for bodily harm is intrinsic to the work, and it will always be unsafe."
] |
>
My point is that treating it like any other job is not ethically possible due to hazardous conditions
|
[
"/u/Due-Lie-8710 (OP) has awarded 7 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nThere's a song I like that speaks on this fairly poetically, so I'd like to start by just directly quoting it:\n\nSo when you bled on the bed as you fed those expectations, as a whore and not a human, you embraced with hesitation the very parameters of all you can be. Not a mother, not an aunt, not a sister who's not subdued. Because dignity's not physical, and your flesh means more than you.\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.",
">\n\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.\n\nFirst of all if you aren't trafficked it is just like another job, as for you both being seen as human , make sense hey aren't there to befriend to have sex , you are performing a service, it's like you watching football or a movie, you only see them as footballers ot actors , half of the time they don't care about their personal life, there are some jobs that prevent you from getting any high paying jobs or jobs that involve care , as for the people purchasing it , if you can't purchase it then why should they sell it , you don't actually support sex work, because that would mean accepting the consumer base ad well as the supplier",
">\n\nThat’s a really big if though, sex work isn’t exactly an industry where you will know for sure if the service you’re getting is consensual. individuals who are victims of sexual trafficking, coercion, or just life circumstance aren’t likely to just tell their “customers” if it isn’t consensual. they could endanger themselves or not be aware that they can say something. \nSeeing someone as an object vs seeing them as an individual with a job aren’t the same though? yes we recognize actors and football players by their career choice and how well they are at it, but they’re still people at the end of the day? that’s why they have fanbases, interviews, paparazzi, popularity on social media, movie adaptions of their life exist—people are interested in more than them just doing their job.\nA persons job is no reason to suddenly strip them of their humanity and rights granted them for being such, that kind of mentality is morally skewed and why a lot of people would not support sex work. plus you can’t say it makes sense for sex workers to be see as commodities only and then believe sex work will be consensual. the whole consent part comes from recognizing that this is another person who has their own boundaries and limits beyond just what you want.",
">\n\nokay, that’s a plumber and not a person you’re having sex with. unlike plumbing which is clean cut, sex can include multiple aspects of different kinks and fetishes. You can’t expect a sex worker to be okay with say participating in rape play, anal, scat, and a mirage of other kinks simply because they agreed to sex. Sex is not clean cut, there is more to it. There has to be a boundary somewhere, this is another person body not a pipe.",
">\n\nThat’s like the point? recognizing the boundary and proceeding from there by RESPECTING the boundary because they are another person and not some masturbatory object. What you just said was a consensual interaction. The initial point was that there is no consensual sex without respecting the party that’s giving as a person.",
">\n\nSo... there's a concept of a moral hazard. \nThere's literally no way for an individual to be certain that their prostitute is not being coerced/trafficked. Even if there are some special circumstances where it might be unlikely, certainty is still impossible, and most people frequenting prostitutes are not in those special circumstances.\nSomeone using their services is therefore extremely likely to be comfortable with risking that they are unknowingly raping someone. \nGenerally speaking, people find that disgusting.",
">\n\nIf you eat chocolate (even the stuff with the fair trade sticker) then there's no guarantee that it hasn't come from slave farms which are not uncommon. If you eat chocolate throughout your life then you are almost definitely contributing to slavery. If you visit a prostitute regularly then the chance they're being exploited is anywhere from functioninally 0% to 100%. So why treat the John who might be discerning with scorn and not the chocolate eater who is a much safer bet in having contributed to coerced labour.",
">\n\nIt's worth trying to avoid those situations, but ultimately it's a very false equivalence to hold people responsible for the actions of others, vs. their own personal actions.\nWhen you buy chocolate, you're not actually holding a gun to a slave, someone else is. The right answer to that is to lobby for worker protections for imported goods, and to try to end involuntary servitude within your country as well. \nWhen you have sex with a trafficked person, you personally literally raped them. If you don't have good evidence to know they aren't trafficked, you're personally ok with the possibility you're going to personally rape them. \nBoth might be considered bad. But it's a false equivalence.\nAnd sure... if someone is paying someone for sex when they are personal friends with them, and interact with them outside of prostitution enough to personally know that they aren't being trafficked... and you're sure they aren't lying, scorning them more than at most some light ribbing isn't justified. It's not like \"sugar daddies\" aren't a thing as well. At the very least much less disapprobation would be appropriate.",
">\n\nIn both cases, there is a customer receiving a service provided by a potentially enslaved person. They are morally equivalent. It makes no sense to say “sure I bought the slavery chocolate, but you can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”",
">\n\n\nyou can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”\n\nThe slavers actions are distinct from the consumers' actions for most things. \nThis is an actual important difference when it comes to prostitution. \nIgnoring that fundamental difference doesn't make it go away, and it's entirely reasonable for someone to make that distinction.",
">\n\nThe slaver and consumer are different people who take different actions in the prostitution scenario. The consumer in both scenarios is taking the risk of being immoral. If I force you to be my slave that’s still immoral whether or not I put you to work in my brothel or mine or factory or fishing boat. And if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever, it’s equivalent.",
">\n\n\nAnd if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever , it’s equivalent.\n\nThis is where the false equivalence comes in. \nSomeone making products with slave labor is not renting out a slave to the consumer so that they consumer can force them to perform mining for the consumer. They are enslaving the labor to create a product, and selling the product. Products don't have rights to violate. The only person violating the rights of the slave is the slaver.\nSomeone trafficking a victim is renting out that victim so that the consumer can rape them.",
">\n\nIf the sex is only contractual to you? Why not just \"hook up.\" Why pay? You will never be able to guarantee they are not being trafficked. If they are, they are not going to tell you. I think the idea of money exchanging hands for sex is the why most have a problem. The idea that you are giving a woman money for sex has been historically seen as her being a whore. \nI am not saying she is. I am saying that from the time it first exchanged hands, that is what it was. Men who could not find a woman, paid a woman. Why do you want others to see it differently? Yes, there will be outliers that will enjoy the work. But those are going to be ones that, like the escort, chose it, and charge what they want. Not the typical street hookers on the corner with pimps to pay. \nProve they are not trafficked, they work for themselves, they are clean (of both drugs and diseases - because they are taking care of themselves and being safe), and that they are a sex worker because they enjoy the work or that that chose the work. Then, hey! Pay 'em and get to it!",
">\n\nI think it is morally unhealthy to normalize it. Even though you have to be an adult to smoke weed, we definitely see weed as a normal thing to do in moderation compared to a few decades ago. This is how we would see prostitution if it was normalized. And I think weed has a lot less complications than legalizing prostitution. A LOT!\nSex work online is a lot safer and requires a lot less mental issues to engage in and promote. But even then, I know some sex workers (online type), and they are scarred by the stuff they have seen when it comes to their job. They have told me stories that are extremely disturbing. These are women who just do stuff by themselves. Not working with a porn company and other people.\nAlso, sex has a huge reputation for being violent and demoralizing towards women in general. I'd assume those numbers would be much higher in men looking to pay for sex. You'd have to have extremely strict and tight regulations for this sort of thing, which would take the fun out of it for a lot of people. And even then, there would still be many mistakes that would happen before we find out all the regulations that are needed. And I don't think we could ever make it mentally and physically safe for women.\nNow, do I think it should be decriminalized for prostitutes? Definitely. I don't see them as disgusting. I feel quite bad for them. Most of them were trafficked at a young age. Do I see men wanting to pay for sex as disgusting? Not necessarily. It depends on the person and the situation. However, this isn't a simple issue where if we just \"stop judging people,\" everything will be fine.",
">\n\nDecriminalizing prostitution for both those selling and buying is demonstrably safer for prostitutes. If it is criminal for the buyer but not the seller, the buyer is often highly defensive and paranoid about the seller, specifically the possibility that they may be working with law enforcement. The buyer will often push to do it in a highly isolated setting as well. These things increase violence that sex workers face, and the averages go down in places where it is decriminalized to both buy and sell. If you have a designated work place for it and no one needs to be distrustful and worried about being arrested, that is the safest situation for all involved. \nWe may disagree with buying it for whatever moral reason, but if we choose to criminalize the purchase of it, we are prioritizing punishing behavior we morally disagree with over prioritizing the safety of those involved, which I can't get behind.",
">\n\nBut there are so many more facets to the safety of legalizing it for the buyer other than them being pushy or wanting to do it in a hidden area. If we legalized it, it still wouldn't really help any of the points I made or is even something that is so overwhelmingly an issue compared to the points I made.",
">\n\nSo long as we have to work to live, all jobs are coercive, even sex work. I’m skeptical that there can ever be a consensual exchange within our current economic context.",
">\n\nExactly , I get sex is intimate but if you are willing to view sex work as any other job , you should be willing to treat it as such",
">\n\nSex work has certain occupational hazards that cannot be regulated away. OSHA (in the US) dictates that a person cannot be subject to bodily fluids without proper PPE in the workplace, and often johns just need to pay more to not wear a condom. Imagine a construction site paying workers more to not wear a hard hat. The greater potential for bodily harm is intrinsic to the work, and it will always be unsafe.",
">\n\nTrue but this doesn't really answer my question"
] |
>
This is a bad take.
I’d wager prostitution doesn’t even rank in the top ten dangerous jobs by capita.
|
[
"/u/Due-Lie-8710 (OP) has awarded 7 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nThere's a song I like that speaks on this fairly poetically, so I'd like to start by just directly quoting it:\n\nSo when you bled on the bed as you fed those expectations, as a whore and not a human, you embraced with hesitation the very parameters of all you can be. Not a mother, not an aunt, not a sister who's not subdued. Because dignity's not physical, and your flesh means more than you.\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.",
">\n\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.\n\nFirst of all if you aren't trafficked it is just like another job, as for you both being seen as human , make sense hey aren't there to befriend to have sex , you are performing a service, it's like you watching football or a movie, you only see them as footballers ot actors , half of the time they don't care about their personal life, there are some jobs that prevent you from getting any high paying jobs or jobs that involve care , as for the people purchasing it , if you can't purchase it then why should they sell it , you don't actually support sex work, because that would mean accepting the consumer base ad well as the supplier",
">\n\nThat’s a really big if though, sex work isn’t exactly an industry where you will know for sure if the service you’re getting is consensual. individuals who are victims of sexual trafficking, coercion, or just life circumstance aren’t likely to just tell their “customers” if it isn’t consensual. they could endanger themselves or not be aware that they can say something. \nSeeing someone as an object vs seeing them as an individual with a job aren’t the same though? yes we recognize actors and football players by their career choice and how well they are at it, but they’re still people at the end of the day? that’s why they have fanbases, interviews, paparazzi, popularity on social media, movie adaptions of their life exist—people are interested in more than them just doing their job.\nA persons job is no reason to suddenly strip them of their humanity and rights granted them for being such, that kind of mentality is morally skewed and why a lot of people would not support sex work. plus you can’t say it makes sense for sex workers to be see as commodities only and then believe sex work will be consensual. the whole consent part comes from recognizing that this is another person who has their own boundaries and limits beyond just what you want.",
">\n\nokay, that’s a plumber and not a person you’re having sex with. unlike plumbing which is clean cut, sex can include multiple aspects of different kinks and fetishes. You can’t expect a sex worker to be okay with say participating in rape play, anal, scat, and a mirage of other kinks simply because they agreed to sex. Sex is not clean cut, there is more to it. There has to be a boundary somewhere, this is another person body not a pipe.",
">\n\nThat’s like the point? recognizing the boundary and proceeding from there by RESPECTING the boundary because they are another person and not some masturbatory object. What you just said was a consensual interaction. The initial point was that there is no consensual sex without respecting the party that’s giving as a person.",
">\n\nSo... there's a concept of a moral hazard. \nThere's literally no way for an individual to be certain that their prostitute is not being coerced/trafficked. Even if there are some special circumstances where it might be unlikely, certainty is still impossible, and most people frequenting prostitutes are not in those special circumstances.\nSomeone using their services is therefore extremely likely to be comfortable with risking that they are unknowingly raping someone. \nGenerally speaking, people find that disgusting.",
">\n\nIf you eat chocolate (even the stuff with the fair trade sticker) then there's no guarantee that it hasn't come from slave farms which are not uncommon. If you eat chocolate throughout your life then you are almost definitely contributing to slavery. If you visit a prostitute regularly then the chance they're being exploited is anywhere from functioninally 0% to 100%. So why treat the John who might be discerning with scorn and not the chocolate eater who is a much safer bet in having contributed to coerced labour.",
">\n\nIt's worth trying to avoid those situations, but ultimately it's a very false equivalence to hold people responsible for the actions of others, vs. their own personal actions.\nWhen you buy chocolate, you're not actually holding a gun to a slave, someone else is. The right answer to that is to lobby for worker protections for imported goods, and to try to end involuntary servitude within your country as well. \nWhen you have sex with a trafficked person, you personally literally raped them. If you don't have good evidence to know they aren't trafficked, you're personally ok with the possibility you're going to personally rape them. \nBoth might be considered bad. But it's a false equivalence.\nAnd sure... if someone is paying someone for sex when they are personal friends with them, and interact with them outside of prostitution enough to personally know that they aren't being trafficked... and you're sure they aren't lying, scorning them more than at most some light ribbing isn't justified. It's not like \"sugar daddies\" aren't a thing as well. At the very least much less disapprobation would be appropriate.",
">\n\nIn both cases, there is a customer receiving a service provided by a potentially enslaved person. They are morally equivalent. It makes no sense to say “sure I bought the slavery chocolate, but you can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”",
">\n\n\nyou can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”\n\nThe slavers actions are distinct from the consumers' actions for most things. \nThis is an actual important difference when it comes to prostitution. \nIgnoring that fundamental difference doesn't make it go away, and it's entirely reasonable for someone to make that distinction.",
">\n\nThe slaver and consumer are different people who take different actions in the prostitution scenario. The consumer in both scenarios is taking the risk of being immoral. If I force you to be my slave that’s still immoral whether or not I put you to work in my brothel or mine or factory or fishing boat. And if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever, it’s equivalent.",
">\n\n\nAnd if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever , it’s equivalent.\n\nThis is where the false equivalence comes in. \nSomeone making products with slave labor is not renting out a slave to the consumer so that they consumer can force them to perform mining for the consumer. They are enslaving the labor to create a product, and selling the product. Products don't have rights to violate. The only person violating the rights of the slave is the slaver.\nSomeone trafficking a victim is renting out that victim so that the consumer can rape them.",
">\n\nIf the sex is only contractual to you? Why not just \"hook up.\" Why pay? You will never be able to guarantee they are not being trafficked. If they are, they are not going to tell you. I think the idea of money exchanging hands for sex is the why most have a problem. The idea that you are giving a woman money for sex has been historically seen as her being a whore. \nI am not saying she is. I am saying that from the time it first exchanged hands, that is what it was. Men who could not find a woman, paid a woman. Why do you want others to see it differently? Yes, there will be outliers that will enjoy the work. But those are going to be ones that, like the escort, chose it, and charge what they want. Not the typical street hookers on the corner with pimps to pay. \nProve they are not trafficked, they work for themselves, they are clean (of both drugs and diseases - because they are taking care of themselves and being safe), and that they are a sex worker because they enjoy the work or that that chose the work. Then, hey! Pay 'em and get to it!",
">\n\nI think it is morally unhealthy to normalize it. Even though you have to be an adult to smoke weed, we definitely see weed as a normal thing to do in moderation compared to a few decades ago. This is how we would see prostitution if it was normalized. And I think weed has a lot less complications than legalizing prostitution. A LOT!\nSex work online is a lot safer and requires a lot less mental issues to engage in and promote. But even then, I know some sex workers (online type), and they are scarred by the stuff they have seen when it comes to their job. They have told me stories that are extremely disturbing. These are women who just do stuff by themselves. Not working with a porn company and other people.\nAlso, sex has a huge reputation for being violent and demoralizing towards women in general. I'd assume those numbers would be much higher in men looking to pay for sex. You'd have to have extremely strict and tight regulations for this sort of thing, which would take the fun out of it for a lot of people. And even then, there would still be many mistakes that would happen before we find out all the regulations that are needed. And I don't think we could ever make it mentally and physically safe for women.\nNow, do I think it should be decriminalized for prostitutes? Definitely. I don't see them as disgusting. I feel quite bad for them. Most of them were trafficked at a young age. Do I see men wanting to pay for sex as disgusting? Not necessarily. It depends on the person and the situation. However, this isn't a simple issue where if we just \"stop judging people,\" everything will be fine.",
">\n\nDecriminalizing prostitution for both those selling and buying is demonstrably safer for prostitutes. If it is criminal for the buyer but not the seller, the buyer is often highly defensive and paranoid about the seller, specifically the possibility that they may be working with law enforcement. The buyer will often push to do it in a highly isolated setting as well. These things increase violence that sex workers face, and the averages go down in places where it is decriminalized to both buy and sell. If you have a designated work place for it and no one needs to be distrustful and worried about being arrested, that is the safest situation for all involved. \nWe may disagree with buying it for whatever moral reason, but if we choose to criminalize the purchase of it, we are prioritizing punishing behavior we morally disagree with over prioritizing the safety of those involved, which I can't get behind.",
">\n\nBut there are so many more facets to the safety of legalizing it for the buyer other than them being pushy or wanting to do it in a hidden area. If we legalized it, it still wouldn't really help any of the points I made or is even something that is so overwhelmingly an issue compared to the points I made.",
">\n\nSo long as we have to work to live, all jobs are coercive, even sex work. I’m skeptical that there can ever be a consensual exchange within our current economic context.",
">\n\nExactly , I get sex is intimate but if you are willing to view sex work as any other job , you should be willing to treat it as such",
">\n\nSex work has certain occupational hazards that cannot be regulated away. OSHA (in the US) dictates that a person cannot be subject to bodily fluids without proper PPE in the workplace, and often johns just need to pay more to not wear a condom. Imagine a construction site paying workers more to not wear a hard hat. The greater potential for bodily harm is intrinsic to the work, and it will always be unsafe.",
">\n\nTrue but this doesn't really answer my question",
">\n\nMy point is that treating it like any other job is not ethically possible due to hazardous conditions"
] |
>
That really depends. A gas station cashier likely has a higher risk of being killed. But a quick Google shows sex workers are thirty times more likely to get Aids than the general population. They're also at ridiculously high rates of risk to their mental health. Ptsd is common. Also, yes, sitting at a counter in a gas station is technically dangerous. But it is different type of danger compared to someone fucking them in the ass while shoving a sock in their mouth and calling them a dirty whore. When this happens to a prostitute, since she isn't dead, then all good right?! :) Her job isn't dangerous, she's still alive! And they're really not paid much. Average pay for a sex scene in porn for a woman is around $600, for the guy it's like a hundred. For prostitution you're looking at a hundred to two hundred dollars.
Also, if you're in the us. Good luck affording health insurance as an independent contractor engaged in sex work.
|
[
"/u/Due-Lie-8710 (OP) has awarded 7 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nThere's a song I like that speaks on this fairly poetically, so I'd like to start by just directly quoting it:\n\nSo when you bled on the bed as you fed those expectations, as a whore and not a human, you embraced with hesitation the very parameters of all you can be. Not a mother, not an aunt, not a sister who's not subdued. Because dignity's not physical, and your flesh means more than you.\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.",
">\n\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.\n\nFirst of all if you aren't trafficked it is just like another job, as for you both being seen as human , make sense hey aren't there to befriend to have sex , you are performing a service, it's like you watching football or a movie, you only see them as footballers ot actors , half of the time they don't care about their personal life, there are some jobs that prevent you from getting any high paying jobs or jobs that involve care , as for the people purchasing it , if you can't purchase it then why should they sell it , you don't actually support sex work, because that would mean accepting the consumer base ad well as the supplier",
">\n\nThat’s a really big if though, sex work isn’t exactly an industry where you will know for sure if the service you’re getting is consensual. individuals who are victims of sexual trafficking, coercion, or just life circumstance aren’t likely to just tell their “customers” if it isn’t consensual. they could endanger themselves or not be aware that they can say something. \nSeeing someone as an object vs seeing them as an individual with a job aren’t the same though? yes we recognize actors and football players by their career choice and how well they are at it, but they’re still people at the end of the day? that’s why they have fanbases, interviews, paparazzi, popularity on social media, movie adaptions of their life exist—people are interested in more than them just doing their job.\nA persons job is no reason to suddenly strip them of their humanity and rights granted them for being such, that kind of mentality is morally skewed and why a lot of people would not support sex work. plus you can’t say it makes sense for sex workers to be see as commodities only and then believe sex work will be consensual. the whole consent part comes from recognizing that this is another person who has their own boundaries and limits beyond just what you want.",
">\n\nokay, that’s a plumber and not a person you’re having sex with. unlike plumbing which is clean cut, sex can include multiple aspects of different kinks and fetishes. You can’t expect a sex worker to be okay with say participating in rape play, anal, scat, and a mirage of other kinks simply because they agreed to sex. Sex is not clean cut, there is more to it. There has to be a boundary somewhere, this is another person body not a pipe.",
">\n\nThat’s like the point? recognizing the boundary and proceeding from there by RESPECTING the boundary because they are another person and not some masturbatory object. What you just said was a consensual interaction. The initial point was that there is no consensual sex without respecting the party that’s giving as a person.",
">\n\nSo... there's a concept of a moral hazard. \nThere's literally no way for an individual to be certain that their prostitute is not being coerced/trafficked. Even if there are some special circumstances where it might be unlikely, certainty is still impossible, and most people frequenting prostitutes are not in those special circumstances.\nSomeone using their services is therefore extremely likely to be comfortable with risking that they are unknowingly raping someone. \nGenerally speaking, people find that disgusting.",
">\n\nIf you eat chocolate (even the stuff with the fair trade sticker) then there's no guarantee that it hasn't come from slave farms which are not uncommon. If you eat chocolate throughout your life then you are almost definitely contributing to slavery. If you visit a prostitute regularly then the chance they're being exploited is anywhere from functioninally 0% to 100%. So why treat the John who might be discerning with scorn and not the chocolate eater who is a much safer bet in having contributed to coerced labour.",
">\n\nIt's worth trying to avoid those situations, but ultimately it's a very false equivalence to hold people responsible for the actions of others, vs. their own personal actions.\nWhen you buy chocolate, you're not actually holding a gun to a slave, someone else is. The right answer to that is to lobby for worker protections for imported goods, and to try to end involuntary servitude within your country as well. \nWhen you have sex with a trafficked person, you personally literally raped them. If you don't have good evidence to know they aren't trafficked, you're personally ok with the possibility you're going to personally rape them. \nBoth might be considered bad. But it's a false equivalence.\nAnd sure... if someone is paying someone for sex when they are personal friends with them, and interact with them outside of prostitution enough to personally know that they aren't being trafficked... and you're sure they aren't lying, scorning them more than at most some light ribbing isn't justified. It's not like \"sugar daddies\" aren't a thing as well. At the very least much less disapprobation would be appropriate.",
">\n\nIn both cases, there is a customer receiving a service provided by a potentially enslaved person. They are morally equivalent. It makes no sense to say “sure I bought the slavery chocolate, but you can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”",
">\n\n\nyou can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”\n\nThe slavers actions are distinct from the consumers' actions for most things. \nThis is an actual important difference when it comes to prostitution. \nIgnoring that fundamental difference doesn't make it go away, and it's entirely reasonable for someone to make that distinction.",
">\n\nThe slaver and consumer are different people who take different actions in the prostitution scenario. The consumer in both scenarios is taking the risk of being immoral. If I force you to be my slave that’s still immoral whether or not I put you to work in my brothel or mine or factory or fishing boat. And if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever, it’s equivalent.",
">\n\n\nAnd if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever , it’s equivalent.\n\nThis is where the false equivalence comes in. \nSomeone making products with slave labor is not renting out a slave to the consumer so that they consumer can force them to perform mining for the consumer. They are enslaving the labor to create a product, and selling the product. Products don't have rights to violate. The only person violating the rights of the slave is the slaver.\nSomeone trafficking a victim is renting out that victim so that the consumer can rape them.",
">\n\nIf the sex is only contractual to you? Why not just \"hook up.\" Why pay? You will never be able to guarantee they are not being trafficked. If they are, they are not going to tell you. I think the idea of money exchanging hands for sex is the why most have a problem. The idea that you are giving a woman money for sex has been historically seen as her being a whore. \nI am not saying she is. I am saying that from the time it first exchanged hands, that is what it was. Men who could not find a woman, paid a woman. Why do you want others to see it differently? Yes, there will be outliers that will enjoy the work. But those are going to be ones that, like the escort, chose it, and charge what they want. Not the typical street hookers on the corner with pimps to pay. \nProve they are not trafficked, they work for themselves, they are clean (of both drugs and diseases - because they are taking care of themselves and being safe), and that they are a sex worker because they enjoy the work or that that chose the work. Then, hey! Pay 'em and get to it!",
">\n\nI think it is morally unhealthy to normalize it. Even though you have to be an adult to smoke weed, we definitely see weed as a normal thing to do in moderation compared to a few decades ago. This is how we would see prostitution if it was normalized. And I think weed has a lot less complications than legalizing prostitution. A LOT!\nSex work online is a lot safer and requires a lot less mental issues to engage in and promote. But even then, I know some sex workers (online type), and they are scarred by the stuff they have seen when it comes to their job. They have told me stories that are extremely disturbing. These are women who just do stuff by themselves. Not working with a porn company and other people.\nAlso, sex has a huge reputation for being violent and demoralizing towards women in general. I'd assume those numbers would be much higher in men looking to pay for sex. You'd have to have extremely strict and tight regulations for this sort of thing, which would take the fun out of it for a lot of people. And even then, there would still be many mistakes that would happen before we find out all the regulations that are needed. And I don't think we could ever make it mentally and physically safe for women.\nNow, do I think it should be decriminalized for prostitutes? Definitely. I don't see them as disgusting. I feel quite bad for them. Most of them were trafficked at a young age. Do I see men wanting to pay for sex as disgusting? Not necessarily. It depends on the person and the situation. However, this isn't a simple issue where if we just \"stop judging people,\" everything will be fine.",
">\n\nDecriminalizing prostitution for both those selling and buying is demonstrably safer for prostitutes. If it is criminal for the buyer but not the seller, the buyer is often highly defensive and paranoid about the seller, specifically the possibility that they may be working with law enforcement. The buyer will often push to do it in a highly isolated setting as well. These things increase violence that sex workers face, and the averages go down in places where it is decriminalized to both buy and sell. If you have a designated work place for it and no one needs to be distrustful and worried about being arrested, that is the safest situation for all involved. \nWe may disagree with buying it for whatever moral reason, but if we choose to criminalize the purchase of it, we are prioritizing punishing behavior we morally disagree with over prioritizing the safety of those involved, which I can't get behind.",
">\n\nBut there are so many more facets to the safety of legalizing it for the buyer other than them being pushy or wanting to do it in a hidden area. If we legalized it, it still wouldn't really help any of the points I made or is even something that is so overwhelmingly an issue compared to the points I made.",
">\n\nSo long as we have to work to live, all jobs are coercive, even sex work. I’m skeptical that there can ever be a consensual exchange within our current economic context.",
">\n\nExactly , I get sex is intimate but if you are willing to view sex work as any other job , you should be willing to treat it as such",
">\n\nSex work has certain occupational hazards that cannot be regulated away. OSHA (in the US) dictates that a person cannot be subject to bodily fluids without proper PPE in the workplace, and often johns just need to pay more to not wear a condom. Imagine a construction site paying workers more to not wear a hard hat. The greater potential for bodily harm is intrinsic to the work, and it will always be unsafe.",
">\n\nTrue but this doesn't really answer my question",
">\n\nMy point is that treating it like any other job is not ethically possible due to hazardous conditions",
">\n\nThis is a bad take.\nI’d wager prostitution doesn’t even rank in the top ten dangerous jobs by capita."
] |
>
I’m not exactly impressed with the American system so if you’re criticising Americans health system then fuck yeah more power to you.
You raise fantastic points about there being non lethal dangers in sex work that are worth considering and harder to measure.
That being said, sit for a while and think about whether you think that sex workers are in a job so dangerous that it deserves its own category and shouldn’t even be allowed. (This is what the commenter I was responding to was claiming)
I’m comfortable I’d ban lumberjack as a profession long before I considered banning prostitution based on relative level of danger and conditions.
I don’t have a specific statistic but soldiers at an educated guess would probably be more likely to experience danger and mental issues but the commenter I responded to probably never thought for one second about banning soldiers on that basis.
It’s clear bias, being rationalised as something it isn’t.
|
[
"/u/Due-Lie-8710 (OP) has awarded 7 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nThere's a song I like that speaks on this fairly poetically, so I'd like to start by just directly quoting it:\n\nSo when you bled on the bed as you fed those expectations, as a whore and not a human, you embraced with hesitation the very parameters of all you can be. Not a mother, not an aunt, not a sister who's not subdued. Because dignity's not physical, and your flesh means more than you.\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.",
">\n\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.\n\nFirst of all if you aren't trafficked it is just like another job, as for you both being seen as human , make sense hey aren't there to befriend to have sex , you are performing a service, it's like you watching football or a movie, you only see them as footballers ot actors , half of the time they don't care about their personal life, there are some jobs that prevent you from getting any high paying jobs or jobs that involve care , as for the people purchasing it , if you can't purchase it then why should they sell it , you don't actually support sex work, because that would mean accepting the consumer base ad well as the supplier",
">\n\nThat’s a really big if though, sex work isn’t exactly an industry where you will know for sure if the service you’re getting is consensual. individuals who are victims of sexual trafficking, coercion, or just life circumstance aren’t likely to just tell their “customers” if it isn’t consensual. they could endanger themselves or not be aware that they can say something. \nSeeing someone as an object vs seeing them as an individual with a job aren’t the same though? yes we recognize actors and football players by their career choice and how well they are at it, but they’re still people at the end of the day? that’s why they have fanbases, interviews, paparazzi, popularity on social media, movie adaptions of their life exist—people are interested in more than them just doing their job.\nA persons job is no reason to suddenly strip them of their humanity and rights granted them for being such, that kind of mentality is morally skewed and why a lot of people would not support sex work. plus you can’t say it makes sense for sex workers to be see as commodities only and then believe sex work will be consensual. the whole consent part comes from recognizing that this is another person who has their own boundaries and limits beyond just what you want.",
">\n\nokay, that’s a plumber and not a person you’re having sex with. unlike plumbing which is clean cut, sex can include multiple aspects of different kinks and fetishes. You can’t expect a sex worker to be okay with say participating in rape play, anal, scat, and a mirage of other kinks simply because they agreed to sex. Sex is not clean cut, there is more to it. There has to be a boundary somewhere, this is another person body not a pipe.",
">\n\nThat’s like the point? recognizing the boundary and proceeding from there by RESPECTING the boundary because they are another person and not some masturbatory object. What you just said was a consensual interaction. The initial point was that there is no consensual sex without respecting the party that’s giving as a person.",
">\n\nSo... there's a concept of a moral hazard. \nThere's literally no way for an individual to be certain that their prostitute is not being coerced/trafficked. Even if there are some special circumstances where it might be unlikely, certainty is still impossible, and most people frequenting prostitutes are not in those special circumstances.\nSomeone using their services is therefore extremely likely to be comfortable with risking that they are unknowingly raping someone. \nGenerally speaking, people find that disgusting.",
">\n\nIf you eat chocolate (even the stuff with the fair trade sticker) then there's no guarantee that it hasn't come from slave farms which are not uncommon. If you eat chocolate throughout your life then you are almost definitely contributing to slavery. If you visit a prostitute regularly then the chance they're being exploited is anywhere from functioninally 0% to 100%. So why treat the John who might be discerning with scorn and not the chocolate eater who is a much safer bet in having contributed to coerced labour.",
">\n\nIt's worth trying to avoid those situations, but ultimately it's a very false equivalence to hold people responsible for the actions of others, vs. their own personal actions.\nWhen you buy chocolate, you're not actually holding a gun to a slave, someone else is. The right answer to that is to lobby for worker protections for imported goods, and to try to end involuntary servitude within your country as well. \nWhen you have sex with a trafficked person, you personally literally raped them. If you don't have good evidence to know they aren't trafficked, you're personally ok with the possibility you're going to personally rape them. \nBoth might be considered bad. But it's a false equivalence.\nAnd sure... if someone is paying someone for sex when they are personal friends with them, and interact with them outside of prostitution enough to personally know that they aren't being trafficked... and you're sure they aren't lying, scorning them more than at most some light ribbing isn't justified. It's not like \"sugar daddies\" aren't a thing as well. At the very least much less disapprobation would be appropriate.",
">\n\nIn both cases, there is a customer receiving a service provided by a potentially enslaved person. They are morally equivalent. It makes no sense to say “sure I bought the slavery chocolate, but you can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”",
">\n\n\nyou can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”\n\nThe slavers actions are distinct from the consumers' actions for most things. \nThis is an actual important difference when it comes to prostitution. \nIgnoring that fundamental difference doesn't make it go away, and it's entirely reasonable for someone to make that distinction.",
">\n\nThe slaver and consumer are different people who take different actions in the prostitution scenario. The consumer in both scenarios is taking the risk of being immoral. If I force you to be my slave that’s still immoral whether or not I put you to work in my brothel or mine or factory or fishing boat. And if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever, it’s equivalent.",
">\n\n\nAnd if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever , it’s equivalent.\n\nThis is where the false equivalence comes in. \nSomeone making products with slave labor is not renting out a slave to the consumer so that they consumer can force them to perform mining for the consumer. They are enslaving the labor to create a product, and selling the product. Products don't have rights to violate. The only person violating the rights of the slave is the slaver.\nSomeone trafficking a victim is renting out that victim so that the consumer can rape them.",
">\n\nIf the sex is only contractual to you? Why not just \"hook up.\" Why pay? You will never be able to guarantee they are not being trafficked. If they are, they are not going to tell you. I think the idea of money exchanging hands for sex is the why most have a problem. The idea that you are giving a woman money for sex has been historically seen as her being a whore. \nI am not saying she is. I am saying that from the time it first exchanged hands, that is what it was. Men who could not find a woman, paid a woman. Why do you want others to see it differently? Yes, there will be outliers that will enjoy the work. But those are going to be ones that, like the escort, chose it, and charge what they want. Not the typical street hookers on the corner with pimps to pay. \nProve they are not trafficked, they work for themselves, they are clean (of both drugs and diseases - because they are taking care of themselves and being safe), and that they are a sex worker because they enjoy the work or that that chose the work. Then, hey! Pay 'em and get to it!",
">\n\nI think it is morally unhealthy to normalize it. Even though you have to be an adult to smoke weed, we definitely see weed as a normal thing to do in moderation compared to a few decades ago. This is how we would see prostitution if it was normalized. And I think weed has a lot less complications than legalizing prostitution. A LOT!\nSex work online is a lot safer and requires a lot less mental issues to engage in and promote. But even then, I know some sex workers (online type), and they are scarred by the stuff they have seen when it comes to their job. They have told me stories that are extremely disturbing. These are women who just do stuff by themselves. Not working with a porn company and other people.\nAlso, sex has a huge reputation for being violent and demoralizing towards women in general. I'd assume those numbers would be much higher in men looking to pay for sex. You'd have to have extremely strict and tight regulations for this sort of thing, which would take the fun out of it for a lot of people. And even then, there would still be many mistakes that would happen before we find out all the regulations that are needed. And I don't think we could ever make it mentally and physically safe for women.\nNow, do I think it should be decriminalized for prostitutes? Definitely. I don't see them as disgusting. I feel quite bad for them. Most of them were trafficked at a young age. Do I see men wanting to pay for sex as disgusting? Not necessarily. It depends on the person and the situation. However, this isn't a simple issue where if we just \"stop judging people,\" everything will be fine.",
">\n\nDecriminalizing prostitution for both those selling and buying is demonstrably safer for prostitutes. If it is criminal for the buyer but not the seller, the buyer is often highly defensive and paranoid about the seller, specifically the possibility that they may be working with law enforcement. The buyer will often push to do it in a highly isolated setting as well. These things increase violence that sex workers face, and the averages go down in places where it is decriminalized to both buy and sell. If you have a designated work place for it and no one needs to be distrustful and worried about being arrested, that is the safest situation for all involved. \nWe may disagree with buying it for whatever moral reason, but if we choose to criminalize the purchase of it, we are prioritizing punishing behavior we morally disagree with over prioritizing the safety of those involved, which I can't get behind.",
">\n\nBut there are so many more facets to the safety of legalizing it for the buyer other than them being pushy or wanting to do it in a hidden area. If we legalized it, it still wouldn't really help any of the points I made or is even something that is so overwhelmingly an issue compared to the points I made.",
">\n\nSo long as we have to work to live, all jobs are coercive, even sex work. I’m skeptical that there can ever be a consensual exchange within our current economic context.",
">\n\nExactly , I get sex is intimate but if you are willing to view sex work as any other job , you should be willing to treat it as such",
">\n\nSex work has certain occupational hazards that cannot be regulated away. OSHA (in the US) dictates that a person cannot be subject to bodily fluids without proper PPE in the workplace, and often johns just need to pay more to not wear a condom. Imagine a construction site paying workers more to not wear a hard hat. The greater potential for bodily harm is intrinsic to the work, and it will always be unsafe.",
">\n\nTrue but this doesn't really answer my question",
">\n\nMy point is that treating it like any other job is not ethically possible due to hazardous conditions",
">\n\nThis is a bad take.\nI’d wager prostitution doesn’t even rank in the top ten dangerous jobs by capita.",
">\n\nThat really depends. A gas station cashier likely has a higher risk of being killed. But a quick Google shows sex workers are thirty times more likely to get Aids than the general population. They're also at ridiculously high rates of risk to their mental health. Ptsd is common. Also, yes, sitting at a counter in a gas station is technically dangerous. But it is different type of danger compared to someone fucking them in the ass while shoving a sock in their mouth and calling them a dirty whore. When this happens to a prostitute, since she isn't dead, then all good right?! :) Her job isn't dangerous, she's still alive! And they're really not paid much. Average pay for a sex scene in porn for a woman is around $600, for the guy it's like a hundred. For prostitution you're looking at a hundred to two hundred dollars. \nAlso, if you're in the us. Good luck affording health insurance as an independent contractor engaged in sex work."
] |
>
It's decriminalised where I live, which means women can arrange anything themselves. So you can have a strip club with a "hotel" above it. Basically 100% of the workers are foreign, from places like Ukraine. Russia, Moldova, Romania. Etc. It's a strange aspect which isn't often brought up. But"legalizing " almost always results on foreign workers undercutting any local workforce. How can a 26 year old American girl from the burbs compete with an 18 year Thai girl? One is fine doing work at basically the rates of a full time McDonald's employee, while the other isn't. And of course, that breeds the type of people you'd imagine running the business. Even in places like Amsterdam, where there's tons of regulation, you get the same trafficking you see anywhere else.
So morally. I've got zero problem. But I've just never seen a model that can actually ensure safety for everyone involved.
|
[
"/u/Due-Lie-8710 (OP) has awarded 7 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nThere's a song I like that speaks on this fairly poetically, so I'd like to start by just directly quoting it:\n\nSo when you bled on the bed as you fed those expectations, as a whore and not a human, you embraced with hesitation the very parameters of all you can be. Not a mother, not an aunt, not a sister who's not subdued. Because dignity's not physical, and your flesh means more than you.\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.",
">\n\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.\n\nFirst of all if you aren't trafficked it is just like another job, as for you both being seen as human , make sense hey aren't there to befriend to have sex , you are performing a service, it's like you watching football or a movie, you only see them as footballers ot actors , half of the time they don't care about their personal life, there are some jobs that prevent you from getting any high paying jobs or jobs that involve care , as for the people purchasing it , if you can't purchase it then why should they sell it , you don't actually support sex work, because that would mean accepting the consumer base ad well as the supplier",
">\n\nThat’s a really big if though, sex work isn’t exactly an industry where you will know for sure if the service you’re getting is consensual. individuals who are victims of sexual trafficking, coercion, or just life circumstance aren’t likely to just tell their “customers” if it isn’t consensual. they could endanger themselves or not be aware that they can say something. \nSeeing someone as an object vs seeing them as an individual with a job aren’t the same though? yes we recognize actors and football players by their career choice and how well they are at it, but they’re still people at the end of the day? that’s why they have fanbases, interviews, paparazzi, popularity on social media, movie adaptions of their life exist—people are interested in more than them just doing their job.\nA persons job is no reason to suddenly strip them of their humanity and rights granted them for being such, that kind of mentality is morally skewed and why a lot of people would not support sex work. plus you can’t say it makes sense for sex workers to be see as commodities only and then believe sex work will be consensual. the whole consent part comes from recognizing that this is another person who has their own boundaries and limits beyond just what you want.",
">\n\nokay, that’s a plumber and not a person you’re having sex with. unlike plumbing which is clean cut, sex can include multiple aspects of different kinks and fetishes. You can’t expect a sex worker to be okay with say participating in rape play, anal, scat, and a mirage of other kinks simply because they agreed to sex. Sex is not clean cut, there is more to it. There has to be a boundary somewhere, this is another person body not a pipe.",
">\n\nThat’s like the point? recognizing the boundary and proceeding from there by RESPECTING the boundary because they are another person and not some masturbatory object. What you just said was a consensual interaction. The initial point was that there is no consensual sex without respecting the party that’s giving as a person.",
">\n\nSo... there's a concept of a moral hazard. \nThere's literally no way for an individual to be certain that their prostitute is not being coerced/trafficked. Even if there are some special circumstances where it might be unlikely, certainty is still impossible, and most people frequenting prostitutes are not in those special circumstances.\nSomeone using their services is therefore extremely likely to be comfortable with risking that they are unknowingly raping someone. \nGenerally speaking, people find that disgusting.",
">\n\nIf you eat chocolate (even the stuff with the fair trade sticker) then there's no guarantee that it hasn't come from slave farms which are not uncommon. If you eat chocolate throughout your life then you are almost definitely contributing to slavery. If you visit a prostitute regularly then the chance they're being exploited is anywhere from functioninally 0% to 100%. So why treat the John who might be discerning with scorn and not the chocolate eater who is a much safer bet in having contributed to coerced labour.",
">\n\nIt's worth trying to avoid those situations, but ultimately it's a very false equivalence to hold people responsible for the actions of others, vs. their own personal actions.\nWhen you buy chocolate, you're not actually holding a gun to a slave, someone else is. The right answer to that is to lobby for worker protections for imported goods, and to try to end involuntary servitude within your country as well. \nWhen you have sex with a trafficked person, you personally literally raped them. If you don't have good evidence to know they aren't trafficked, you're personally ok with the possibility you're going to personally rape them. \nBoth might be considered bad. But it's a false equivalence.\nAnd sure... if someone is paying someone for sex when they are personal friends with them, and interact with them outside of prostitution enough to personally know that they aren't being trafficked... and you're sure they aren't lying, scorning them more than at most some light ribbing isn't justified. It's not like \"sugar daddies\" aren't a thing as well. At the very least much less disapprobation would be appropriate.",
">\n\nIn both cases, there is a customer receiving a service provided by a potentially enslaved person. They are morally equivalent. It makes no sense to say “sure I bought the slavery chocolate, but you can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”",
">\n\n\nyou can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”\n\nThe slavers actions are distinct from the consumers' actions for most things. \nThis is an actual important difference when it comes to prostitution. \nIgnoring that fundamental difference doesn't make it go away, and it's entirely reasonable for someone to make that distinction.",
">\n\nThe slaver and consumer are different people who take different actions in the prostitution scenario. The consumer in both scenarios is taking the risk of being immoral. If I force you to be my slave that’s still immoral whether or not I put you to work in my brothel or mine or factory or fishing boat. And if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever, it’s equivalent.",
">\n\n\nAnd if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever , it’s equivalent.\n\nThis is where the false equivalence comes in. \nSomeone making products with slave labor is not renting out a slave to the consumer so that they consumer can force them to perform mining for the consumer. They are enslaving the labor to create a product, and selling the product. Products don't have rights to violate. The only person violating the rights of the slave is the slaver.\nSomeone trafficking a victim is renting out that victim so that the consumer can rape them.",
">\n\nIf the sex is only contractual to you? Why not just \"hook up.\" Why pay? You will never be able to guarantee they are not being trafficked. If they are, they are not going to tell you. I think the idea of money exchanging hands for sex is the why most have a problem. The idea that you are giving a woman money for sex has been historically seen as her being a whore. \nI am not saying she is. I am saying that from the time it first exchanged hands, that is what it was. Men who could not find a woman, paid a woman. Why do you want others to see it differently? Yes, there will be outliers that will enjoy the work. But those are going to be ones that, like the escort, chose it, and charge what they want. Not the typical street hookers on the corner with pimps to pay. \nProve they are not trafficked, they work for themselves, they are clean (of both drugs and diseases - because they are taking care of themselves and being safe), and that they are a sex worker because they enjoy the work or that that chose the work. Then, hey! Pay 'em and get to it!",
">\n\nI think it is morally unhealthy to normalize it. Even though you have to be an adult to smoke weed, we definitely see weed as a normal thing to do in moderation compared to a few decades ago. This is how we would see prostitution if it was normalized. And I think weed has a lot less complications than legalizing prostitution. A LOT!\nSex work online is a lot safer and requires a lot less mental issues to engage in and promote. But even then, I know some sex workers (online type), and they are scarred by the stuff they have seen when it comes to their job. They have told me stories that are extremely disturbing. These are women who just do stuff by themselves. Not working with a porn company and other people.\nAlso, sex has a huge reputation for being violent and demoralizing towards women in general. I'd assume those numbers would be much higher in men looking to pay for sex. You'd have to have extremely strict and tight regulations for this sort of thing, which would take the fun out of it for a lot of people. And even then, there would still be many mistakes that would happen before we find out all the regulations that are needed. And I don't think we could ever make it mentally and physically safe for women.\nNow, do I think it should be decriminalized for prostitutes? Definitely. I don't see them as disgusting. I feel quite bad for them. Most of them were trafficked at a young age. Do I see men wanting to pay for sex as disgusting? Not necessarily. It depends on the person and the situation. However, this isn't a simple issue where if we just \"stop judging people,\" everything will be fine.",
">\n\nDecriminalizing prostitution for both those selling and buying is demonstrably safer for prostitutes. If it is criminal for the buyer but not the seller, the buyer is often highly defensive and paranoid about the seller, specifically the possibility that they may be working with law enforcement. The buyer will often push to do it in a highly isolated setting as well. These things increase violence that sex workers face, and the averages go down in places where it is decriminalized to both buy and sell. If you have a designated work place for it and no one needs to be distrustful and worried about being arrested, that is the safest situation for all involved. \nWe may disagree with buying it for whatever moral reason, but if we choose to criminalize the purchase of it, we are prioritizing punishing behavior we morally disagree with over prioritizing the safety of those involved, which I can't get behind.",
">\n\nBut there are so many more facets to the safety of legalizing it for the buyer other than them being pushy or wanting to do it in a hidden area. If we legalized it, it still wouldn't really help any of the points I made or is even something that is so overwhelmingly an issue compared to the points I made.",
">\n\nSo long as we have to work to live, all jobs are coercive, even sex work. I’m skeptical that there can ever be a consensual exchange within our current economic context.",
">\n\nExactly , I get sex is intimate but if you are willing to view sex work as any other job , you should be willing to treat it as such",
">\n\nSex work has certain occupational hazards that cannot be regulated away. OSHA (in the US) dictates that a person cannot be subject to bodily fluids without proper PPE in the workplace, and often johns just need to pay more to not wear a condom. Imagine a construction site paying workers more to not wear a hard hat. The greater potential for bodily harm is intrinsic to the work, and it will always be unsafe.",
">\n\nTrue but this doesn't really answer my question",
">\n\nMy point is that treating it like any other job is not ethically possible due to hazardous conditions",
">\n\nThis is a bad take.\nI’d wager prostitution doesn’t even rank in the top ten dangerous jobs by capita.",
">\n\nThat really depends. A gas station cashier likely has a higher risk of being killed. But a quick Google shows sex workers are thirty times more likely to get Aids than the general population. They're also at ridiculously high rates of risk to their mental health. Ptsd is common. Also, yes, sitting at a counter in a gas station is technically dangerous. But it is different type of danger compared to someone fucking them in the ass while shoving a sock in their mouth and calling them a dirty whore. When this happens to a prostitute, since she isn't dead, then all good right?! :) Her job isn't dangerous, she's still alive! And they're really not paid much. Average pay for a sex scene in porn for a woman is around $600, for the guy it's like a hundred. For prostitution you're looking at a hundred to two hundred dollars. \nAlso, if you're in the us. Good luck affording health insurance as an independent contractor engaged in sex work.",
">\n\nI’m not exactly impressed with the American system so if you’re criticising Americans health system then fuck yeah more power to you.\nYou raise fantastic points about there being non lethal dangers in sex work that are worth considering and harder to measure.\nThat being said, sit for a while and think about whether you think that sex workers are in a job so dangerous that it deserves its own category and shouldn’t even be allowed. (This is what the commenter I was responding to was claiming)\nI’m comfortable I’d ban lumberjack as a profession long before I considered banning prostitution based on relative level of danger and conditions.\nI don’t have a specific statistic but soldiers at an educated guess would probably be more likely to experience danger and mental issues but the commenter I responded to probably never thought for one second about banning soldiers on that basis.\nIt’s clear bias, being rationalised as something it isn’t."
] |
>
Well culture is everything isn't it? Of there wasn't so much sex tourism from places that have prostitution illegal there would probably be less demand wouldn't there? Less demand would make the whole industry safer imo due to the loss of money driving the search for foreign market girls
Like imagine the whole world has a brothel just down the block. Does that make it more safe just by sheer volume and normality?
|
[
"/u/Due-Lie-8710 (OP) has awarded 7 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nThere's a song I like that speaks on this fairly poetically, so I'd like to start by just directly quoting it:\n\nSo when you bled on the bed as you fed those expectations, as a whore and not a human, you embraced with hesitation the very parameters of all you can be. Not a mother, not an aunt, not a sister who's not subdued. Because dignity's not physical, and your flesh means more than you.\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.",
">\n\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.\n\nFirst of all if you aren't trafficked it is just like another job, as for you both being seen as human , make sense hey aren't there to befriend to have sex , you are performing a service, it's like you watching football or a movie, you only see them as footballers ot actors , half of the time they don't care about their personal life, there are some jobs that prevent you from getting any high paying jobs or jobs that involve care , as for the people purchasing it , if you can't purchase it then why should they sell it , you don't actually support sex work, because that would mean accepting the consumer base ad well as the supplier",
">\n\nThat’s a really big if though, sex work isn’t exactly an industry where you will know for sure if the service you’re getting is consensual. individuals who are victims of sexual trafficking, coercion, or just life circumstance aren’t likely to just tell their “customers” if it isn’t consensual. they could endanger themselves or not be aware that they can say something. \nSeeing someone as an object vs seeing them as an individual with a job aren’t the same though? yes we recognize actors and football players by their career choice and how well they are at it, but they’re still people at the end of the day? that’s why they have fanbases, interviews, paparazzi, popularity on social media, movie adaptions of their life exist—people are interested in more than them just doing their job.\nA persons job is no reason to suddenly strip them of their humanity and rights granted them for being such, that kind of mentality is morally skewed and why a lot of people would not support sex work. plus you can’t say it makes sense for sex workers to be see as commodities only and then believe sex work will be consensual. the whole consent part comes from recognizing that this is another person who has their own boundaries and limits beyond just what you want.",
">\n\nokay, that’s a plumber and not a person you’re having sex with. unlike plumbing which is clean cut, sex can include multiple aspects of different kinks and fetishes. You can’t expect a sex worker to be okay with say participating in rape play, anal, scat, and a mirage of other kinks simply because they agreed to sex. Sex is not clean cut, there is more to it. There has to be a boundary somewhere, this is another person body not a pipe.",
">\n\nThat’s like the point? recognizing the boundary and proceeding from there by RESPECTING the boundary because they are another person and not some masturbatory object. What you just said was a consensual interaction. The initial point was that there is no consensual sex without respecting the party that’s giving as a person.",
">\n\nSo... there's a concept of a moral hazard. \nThere's literally no way for an individual to be certain that their prostitute is not being coerced/trafficked. Even if there are some special circumstances where it might be unlikely, certainty is still impossible, and most people frequenting prostitutes are not in those special circumstances.\nSomeone using their services is therefore extremely likely to be comfortable with risking that they are unknowingly raping someone. \nGenerally speaking, people find that disgusting.",
">\n\nIf you eat chocolate (even the stuff with the fair trade sticker) then there's no guarantee that it hasn't come from slave farms which are not uncommon. If you eat chocolate throughout your life then you are almost definitely contributing to slavery. If you visit a prostitute regularly then the chance they're being exploited is anywhere from functioninally 0% to 100%. So why treat the John who might be discerning with scorn and not the chocolate eater who is a much safer bet in having contributed to coerced labour.",
">\n\nIt's worth trying to avoid those situations, but ultimately it's a very false equivalence to hold people responsible for the actions of others, vs. their own personal actions.\nWhen you buy chocolate, you're not actually holding a gun to a slave, someone else is. The right answer to that is to lobby for worker protections for imported goods, and to try to end involuntary servitude within your country as well. \nWhen you have sex with a trafficked person, you personally literally raped them. If you don't have good evidence to know they aren't trafficked, you're personally ok with the possibility you're going to personally rape them. \nBoth might be considered bad. But it's a false equivalence.\nAnd sure... if someone is paying someone for sex when they are personal friends with them, and interact with them outside of prostitution enough to personally know that they aren't being trafficked... and you're sure they aren't lying, scorning them more than at most some light ribbing isn't justified. It's not like \"sugar daddies\" aren't a thing as well. At the very least much less disapprobation would be appropriate.",
">\n\nIn both cases, there is a customer receiving a service provided by a potentially enslaved person. They are morally equivalent. It makes no sense to say “sure I bought the slavery chocolate, but you can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”",
">\n\n\nyou can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”\n\nThe slavers actions are distinct from the consumers' actions for most things. \nThis is an actual important difference when it comes to prostitution. \nIgnoring that fundamental difference doesn't make it go away, and it's entirely reasonable for someone to make that distinction.",
">\n\nThe slaver and consumer are different people who take different actions in the prostitution scenario. The consumer in both scenarios is taking the risk of being immoral. If I force you to be my slave that’s still immoral whether or not I put you to work in my brothel or mine or factory or fishing boat. And if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever, it’s equivalent.",
">\n\n\nAnd if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever , it’s equivalent.\n\nThis is where the false equivalence comes in. \nSomeone making products with slave labor is not renting out a slave to the consumer so that they consumer can force them to perform mining for the consumer. They are enslaving the labor to create a product, and selling the product. Products don't have rights to violate. The only person violating the rights of the slave is the slaver.\nSomeone trafficking a victim is renting out that victim so that the consumer can rape them.",
">\n\nIf the sex is only contractual to you? Why not just \"hook up.\" Why pay? You will never be able to guarantee they are not being trafficked. If they are, they are not going to tell you. I think the idea of money exchanging hands for sex is the why most have a problem. The idea that you are giving a woman money for sex has been historically seen as her being a whore. \nI am not saying she is. I am saying that from the time it first exchanged hands, that is what it was. Men who could not find a woman, paid a woman. Why do you want others to see it differently? Yes, there will be outliers that will enjoy the work. But those are going to be ones that, like the escort, chose it, and charge what they want. Not the typical street hookers on the corner with pimps to pay. \nProve they are not trafficked, they work for themselves, they are clean (of both drugs and diseases - because they are taking care of themselves and being safe), and that they are a sex worker because they enjoy the work or that that chose the work. Then, hey! Pay 'em and get to it!",
">\n\nI think it is morally unhealthy to normalize it. Even though you have to be an adult to smoke weed, we definitely see weed as a normal thing to do in moderation compared to a few decades ago. This is how we would see prostitution if it was normalized. And I think weed has a lot less complications than legalizing prostitution. A LOT!\nSex work online is a lot safer and requires a lot less mental issues to engage in and promote. But even then, I know some sex workers (online type), and they are scarred by the stuff they have seen when it comes to their job. They have told me stories that are extremely disturbing. These are women who just do stuff by themselves. Not working with a porn company and other people.\nAlso, sex has a huge reputation for being violent and demoralizing towards women in general. I'd assume those numbers would be much higher in men looking to pay for sex. You'd have to have extremely strict and tight regulations for this sort of thing, which would take the fun out of it for a lot of people. And even then, there would still be many mistakes that would happen before we find out all the regulations that are needed. And I don't think we could ever make it mentally and physically safe for women.\nNow, do I think it should be decriminalized for prostitutes? Definitely. I don't see them as disgusting. I feel quite bad for them. Most of them were trafficked at a young age. Do I see men wanting to pay for sex as disgusting? Not necessarily. It depends on the person and the situation. However, this isn't a simple issue where if we just \"stop judging people,\" everything will be fine.",
">\n\nDecriminalizing prostitution for both those selling and buying is demonstrably safer for prostitutes. If it is criminal for the buyer but not the seller, the buyer is often highly defensive and paranoid about the seller, specifically the possibility that they may be working with law enforcement. The buyer will often push to do it in a highly isolated setting as well. These things increase violence that sex workers face, and the averages go down in places where it is decriminalized to both buy and sell. If you have a designated work place for it and no one needs to be distrustful and worried about being arrested, that is the safest situation for all involved. \nWe may disagree with buying it for whatever moral reason, but if we choose to criminalize the purchase of it, we are prioritizing punishing behavior we morally disagree with over prioritizing the safety of those involved, which I can't get behind.",
">\n\nBut there are so many more facets to the safety of legalizing it for the buyer other than them being pushy or wanting to do it in a hidden area. If we legalized it, it still wouldn't really help any of the points I made or is even something that is so overwhelmingly an issue compared to the points I made.",
">\n\nSo long as we have to work to live, all jobs are coercive, even sex work. I’m skeptical that there can ever be a consensual exchange within our current economic context.",
">\n\nExactly , I get sex is intimate but if you are willing to view sex work as any other job , you should be willing to treat it as such",
">\n\nSex work has certain occupational hazards that cannot be regulated away. OSHA (in the US) dictates that a person cannot be subject to bodily fluids without proper PPE in the workplace, and often johns just need to pay more to not wear a condom. Imagine a construction site paying workers more to not wear a hard hat. The greater potential for bodily harm is intrinsic to the work, and it will always be unsafe.",
">\n\nTrue but this doesn't really answer my question",
">\n\nMy point is that treating it like any other job is not ethically possible due to hazardous conditions",
">\n\nThis is a bad take.\nI’d wager prostitution doesn’t even rank in the top ten dangerous jobs by capita.",
">\n\nThat really depends. A gas station cashier likely has a higher risk of being killed. But a quick Google shows sex workers are thirty times more likely to get Aids than the general population. They're also at ridiculously high rates of risk to their mental health. Ptsd is common. Also, yes, sitting at a counter in a gas station is technically dangerous. But it is different type of danger compared to someone fucking them in the ass while shoving a sock in their mouth and calling them a dirty whore. When this happens to a prostitute, since she isn't dead, then all good right?! :) Her job isn't dangerous, she's still alive! And they're really not paid much. Average pay for a sex scene in porn for a woman is around $600, for the guy it's like a hundred. For prostitution you're looking at a hundred to two hundred dollars. \nAlso, if you're in the us. Good luck affording health insurance as an independent contractor engaged in sex work.",
">\n\nI’m not exactly impressed with the American system so if you’re criticising Americans health system then fuck yeah more power to you.\nYou raise fantastic points about there being non lethal dangers in sex work that are worth considering and harder to measure.\nThat being said, sit for a while and think about whether you think that sex workers are in a job so dangerous that it deserves its own category and shouldn’t even be allowed. (This is what the commenter I was responding to was claiming)\nI’m comfortable I’d ban lumberjack as a profession long before I considered banning prostitution based on relative level of danger and conditions.\nI don’t have a specific statistic but soldiers at an educated guess would probably be more likely to experience danger and mental issues but the commenter I responded to probably never thought for one second about banning soldiers on that basis.\nIt’s clear bias, being rationalised as something it isn’t.",
">\n\nIt's decriminalised where I live, which means women can arrange anything themselves. So you can have a strip club with a \"hotel\" above it. Basically 100% of the workers are foreign, from places like Ukraine. Russia, Moldova, Romania. Etc. It's a strange aspect which isn't often brought up. But\"legalizing \" almost always results on foreign workers undercutting any local workforce. How can a 26 year old American girl from the burbs compete with an 18 year Thai girl? One is fine doing work at basically the rates of a full time McDonald's employee, while the other isn't. And of course, that breeds the type of people you'd imagine running the business. Even in places like Amsterdam, where there's tons of regulation, you get the same trafficking you see anywhere else.\nSo morally. I've got zero problem. But I've just never seen a model that can actually ensure safety for everyone involved."
] |
>
Firstly, i'm not religious, i'm sex-positive and the sex lives of strangers rarely concerns me. I don't think paying for these services makes you a "bad" person, nor a "disgusting" one.. but for me, it would affect your desirability to me as a partner. To me attraction is a big thing, and i'll be honest, I see it as kind of lame. Not morally corrupt but just ...desperate.
I would want my partner to be someone that women wanted to have sex with, not the man that they had sex with as a purely profitable transaction. Whilst it's consensual, when you involve money or a benefit other than sex, the line slightly blurs, and I find it becomes icky.
It's not even that I think my partner should only have had strictly intimate and personable relations... but the question does spring to mind of "is sex that has been paid for truly consensual? can you guarantee that?" Even popular Pornstars who previously agreed to do porn and made careers out of it have stories where they later felt disgusted by what they've had to do but were so enamored by the money, they went through with it. Sex workers will ALWAYS sell a positive image to their clients, part of their job is to make you feel desired, but you never truly know the reality.
All in all, it can be seen as "bad" or "disgusting" because monetary rewards affects the lines of purely consensual sex. The same way it can be icky for a boss to have sex with the intern, the same way directors have sex with actresses that want to star in their movies, and the same way rockstars have sex with their fans. Doesn't make 'em rapists, but it's why people won't look at it as respectable.
|
[
"/u/Due-Lie-8710 (OP) has awarded 7 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nThere's a song I like that speaks on this fairly poetically, so I'd like to start by just directly quoting it:\n\nSo when you bled on the bed as you fed those expectations, as a whore and not a human, you embraced with hesitation the very parameters of all you can be. Not a mother, not an aunt, not a sister who's not subdued. Because dignity's not physical, and your flesh means more than you.\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.",
">\n\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.\n\nFirst of all if you aren't trafficked it is just like another job, as for you both being seen as human , make sense hey aren't there to befriend to have sex , you are performing a service, it's like you watching football or a movie, you only see them as footballers ot actors , half of the time they don't care about their personal life, there are some jobs that prevent you from getting any high paying jobs or jobs that involve care , as for the people purchasing it , if you can't purchase it then why should they sell it , you don't actually support sex work, because that would mean accepting the consumer base ad well as the supplier",
">\n\nThat’s a really big if though, sex work isn’t exactly an industry where you will know for sure if the service you’re getting is consensual. individuals who are victims of sexual trafficking, coercion, or just life circumstance aren’t likely to just tell their “customers” if it isn’t consensual. they could endanger themselves or not be aware that they can say something. \nSeeing someone as an object vs seeing them as an individual with a job aren’t the same though? yes we recognize actors and football players by their career choice and how well they are at it, but they’re still people at the end of the day? that’s why they have fanbases, interviews, paparazzi, popularity on social media, movie adaptions of their life exist—people are interested in more than them just doing their job.\nA persons job is no reason to suddenly strip them of their humanity and rights granted them for being such, that kind of mentality is morally skewed and why a lot of people would not support sex work. plus you can’t say it makes sense for sex workers to be see as commodities only and then believe sex work will be consensual. the whole consent part comes from recognizing that this is another person who has their own boundaries and limits beyond just what you want.",
">\n\nokay, that’s a plumber and not a person you’re having sex with. unlike plumbing which is clean cut, sex can include multiple aspects of different kinks and fetishes. You can’t expect a sex worker to be okay with say participating in rape play, anal, scat, and a mirage of other kinks simply because they agreed to sex. Sex is not clean cut, there is more to it. There has to be a boundary somewhere, this is another person body not a pipe.",
">\n\nThat’s like the point? recognizing the boundary and proceeding from there by RESPECTING the boundary because they are another person and not some masturbatory object. What you just said was a consensual interaction. The initial point was that there is no consensual sex without respecting the party that’s giving as a person.",
">\n\nSo... there's a concept of a moral hazard. \nThere's literally no way for an individual to be certain that their prostitute is not being coerced/trafficked. Even if there are some special circumstances where it might be unlikely, certainty is still impossible, and most people frequenting prostitutes are not in those special circumstances.\nSomeone using their services is therefore extremely likely to be comfortable with risking that they are unknowingly raping someone. \nGenerally speaking, people find that disgusting.",
">\n\nIf you eat chocolate (even the stuff with the fair trade sticker) then there's no guarantee that it hasn't come from slave farms which are not uncommon. If you eat chocolate throughout your life then you are almost definitely contributing to slavery. If you visit a prostitute regularly then the chance they're being exploited is anywhere from functioninally 0% to 100%. So why treat the John who might be discerning with scorn and not the chocolate eater who is a much safer bet in having contributed to coerced labour.",
">\n\nIt's worth trying to avoid those situations, but ultimately it's a very false equivalence to hold people responsible for the actions of others, vs. their own personal actions.\nWhen you buy chocolate, you're not actually holding a gun to a slave, someone else is. The right answer to that is to lobby for worker protections for imported goods, and to try to end involuntary servitude within your country as well. \nWhen you have sex with a trafficked person, you personally literally raped them. If you don't have good evidence to know they aren't trafficked, you're personally ok with the possibility you're going to personally rape them. \nBoth might be considered bad. But it's a false equivalence.\nAnd sure... if someone is paying someone for sex when they are personal friends with them, and interact with them outside of prostitution enough to personally know that they aren't being trafficked... and you're sure they aren't lying, scorning them more than at most some light ribbing isn't justified. It's not like \"sugar daddies\" aren't a thing as well. At the very least much less disapprobation would be appropriate.",
">\n\nIn both cases, there is a customer receiving a service provided by a potentially enslaved person. They are morally equivalent. It makes no sense to say “sure I bought the slavery chocolate, but you can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”",
">\n\n\nyou can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”\n\nThe slavers actions are distinct from the consumers' actions for most things. \nThis is an actual important difference when it comes to prostitution. \nIgnoring that fundamental difference doesn't make it go away, and it's entirely reasonable for someone to make that distinction.",
">\n\nThe slaver and consumer are different people who take different actions in the prostitution scenario. The consumer in both scenarios is taking the risk of being immoral. If I force you to be my slave that’s still immoral whether or not I put you to work in my brothel or mine or factory or fishing boat. And if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever, it’s equivalent.",
">\n\n\nAnd if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever , it’s equivalent.\n\nThis is where the false equivalence comes in. \nSomeone making products with slave labor is not renting out a slave to the consumer so that they consumer can force them to perform mining for the consumer. They are enslaving the labor to create a product, and selling the product. Products don't have rights to violate. The only person violating the rights of the slave is the slaver.\nSomeone trafficking a victim is renting out that victim so that the consumer can rape them.",
">\n\nIf the sex is only contractual to you? Why not just \"hook up.\" Why pay? You will never be able to guarantee they are not being trafficked. If they are, they are not going to tell you. I think the idea of money exchanging hands for sex is the why most have a problem. The idea that you are giving a woman money for sex has been historically seen as her being a whore. \nI am not saying she is. I am saying that from the time it first exchanged hands, that is what it was. Men who could not find a woman, paid a woman. Why do you want others to see it differently? Yes, there will be outliers that will enjoy the work. But those are going to be ones that, like the escort, chose it, and charge what they want. Not the typical street hookers on the corner with pimps to pay. \nProve they are not trafficked, they work for themselves, they are clean (of both drugs and diseases - because they are taking care of themselves and being safe), and that they are a sex worker because they enjoy the work or that that chose the work. Then, hey! Pay 'em and get to it!",
">\n\nI think it is morally unhealthy to normalize it. Even though you have to be an adult to smoke weed, we definitely see weed as a normal thing to do in moderation compared to a few decades ago. This is how we would see prostitution if it was normalized. And I think weed has a lot less complications than legalizing prostitution. A LOT!\nSex work online is a lot safer and requires a lot less mental issues to engage in and promote. But even then, I know some sex workers (online type), and they are scarred by the stuff they have seen when it comes to their job. They have told me stories that are extremely disturbing. These are women who just do stuff by themselves. Not working with a porn company and other people.\nAlso, sex has a huge reputation for being violent and demoralizing towards women in general. I'd assume those numbers would be much higher in men looking to pay for sex. You'd have to have extremely strict and tight regulations for this sort of thing, which would take the fun out of it for a lot of people. And even then, there would still be many mistakes that would happen before we find out all the regulations that are needed. And I don't think we could ever make it mentally and physically safe for women.\nNow, do I think it should be decriminalized for prostitutes? Definitely. I don't see them as disgusting. I feel quite bad for them. Most of them were trafficked at a young age. Do I see men wanting to pay for sex as disgusting? Not necessarily. It depends on the person and the situation. However, this isn't a simple issue where if we just \"stop judging people,\" everything will be fine.",
">\n\nDecriminalizing prostitution for both those selling and buying is demonstrably safer for prostitutes. If it is criminal for the buyer but not the seller, the buyer is often highly defensive and paranoid about the seller, specifically the possibility that they may be working with law enforcement. The buyer will often push to do it in a highly isolated setting as well. These things increase violence that sex workers face, and the averages go down in places where it is decriminalized to both buy and sell. If you have a designated work place for it and no one needs to be distrustful and worried about being arrested, that is the safest situation for all involved. \nWe may disagree with buying it for whatever moral reason, but if we choose to criminalize the purchase of it, we are prioritizing punishing behavior we morally disagree with over prioritizing the safety of those involved, which I can't get behind.",
">\n\nBut there are so many more facets to the safety of legalizing it for the buyer other than them being pushy or wanting to do it in a hidden area. If we legalized it, it still wouldn't really help any of the points I made or is even something that is so overwhelmingly an issue compared to the points I made.",
">\n\nSo long as we have to work to live, all jobs are coercive, even sex work. I’m skeptical that there can ever be a consensual exchange within our current economic context.",
">\n\nExactly , I get sex is intimate but if you are willing to view sex work as any other job , you should be willing to treat it as such",
">\n\nSex work has certain occupational hazards that cannot be regulated away. OSHA (in the US) dictates that a person cannot be subject to bodily fluids without proper PPE in the workplace, and often johns just need to pay more to not wear a condom. Imagine a construction site paying workers more to not wear a hard hat. The greater potential for bodily harm is intrinsic to the work, and it will always be unsafe.",
">\n\nTrue but this doesn't really answer my question",
">\n\nMy point is that treating it like any other job is not ethically possible due to hazardous conditions",
">\n\nThis is a bad take.\nI’d wager prostitution doesn’t even rank in the top ten dangerous jobs by capita.",
">\n\nThat really depends. A gas station cashier likely has a higher risk of being killed. But a quick Google shows sex workers are thirty times more likely to get Aids than the general population. They're also at ridiculously high rates of risk to their mental health. Ptsd is common. Also, yes, sitting at a counter in a gas station is technically dangerous. But it is different type of danger compared to someone fucking them in the ass while shoving a sock in their mouth and calling them a dirty whore. When this happens to a prostitute, since she isn't dead, then all good right?! :) Her job isn't dangerous, she's still alive! And they're really not paid much. Average pay for a sex scene in porn for a woman is around $600, for the guy it's like a hundred. For prostitution you're looking at a hundred to two hundred dollars. \nAlso, if you're in the us. Good luck affording health insurance as an independent contractor engaged in sex work.",
">\n\nI’m not exactly impressed with the American system so if you’re criticising Americans health system then fuck yeah more power to you.\nYou raise fantastic points about there being non lethal dangers in sex work that are worth considering and harder to measure.\nThat being said, sit for a while and think about whether you think that sex workers are in a job so dangerous that it deserves its own category and shouldn’t even be allowed. (This is what the commenter I was responding to was claiming)\nI’m comfortable I’d ban lumberjack as a profession long before I considered banning prostitution based on relative level of danger and conditions.\nI don’t have a specific statistic but soldiers at an educated guess would probably be more likely to experience danger and mental issues but the commenter I responded to probably never thought for one second about banning soldiers on that basis.\nIt’s clear bias, being rationalised as something it isn’t.",
">\n\nIt's decriminalised where I live, which means women can arrange anything themselves. So you can have a strip club with a \"hotel\" above it. Basically 100% of the workers are foreign, from places like Ukraine. Russia, Moldova, Romania. Etc. It's a strange aspect which isn't often brought up. But\"legalizing \" almost always results on foreign workers undercutting any local workforce. How can a 26 year old American girl from the burbs compete with an 18 year Thai girl? One is fine doing work at basically the rates of a full time McDonald's employee, while the other isn't. And of course, that breeds the type of people you'd imagine running the business. Even in places like Amsterdam, where there's tons of regulation, you get the same trafficking you see anywhere else.\nSo morally. I've got zero problem. But I've just never seen a model that can actually ensure safety for everyone involved.",
">\n\nWell culture is everything isn't it? Of there wasn't so much sex tourism from places that have prostitution illegal there would probably be less demand wouldn't there? Less demand would make the whole industry safer imo due to the loss of money driving the search for foreign market girls\nLike imagine the whole world has a brothel just down the block. Does that make it more safe just by sheer volume and normality?"
] |
>
you aren’t sex positive if you think paying for sex is desperate.
does paying for alcohol mean you’re desperate for happiness? some people want to have fun so they buy drinks, others find more fun in sex. as long as sex work is consensual and not the result of pimping or some other form of coercion then I don’t see any harm or how it would be desperate.
there are tangible benefits to buying sex vs finding it “naturally” that i don’t think you’re considering.
with sex workers you’re safer and don’t have to worry about pregnancy, theft, psychotic women, and other risks that come from random hookups with strangers or even casual dating. there’s also the whole “i don’t need to put time and effort into finding and flirting with someone” when it can be on demand. yea making food at home is usually cheaper and better tasting than takeout but sometimes you’re lazy and want a pizza delivered.
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[
"/u/Due-Lie-8710 (OP) has awarded 7 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nThere's a song I like that speaks on this fairly poetically, so I'd like to start by just directly quoting it:\n\nSo when you bled on the bed as you fed those expectations, as a whore and not a human, you embraced with hesitation the very parameters of all you can be. Not a mother, not an aunt, not a sister who's not subdued. Because dignity's not physical, and your flesh means more than you.\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.",
">\n\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.\n\nFirst of all if you aren't trafficked it is just like another job, as for you both being seen as human , make sense hey aren't there to befriend to have sex , you are performing a service, it's like you watching football or a movie, you only see them as footballers ot actors , half of the time they don't care about their personal life, there are some jobs that prevent you from getting any high paying jobs or jobs that involve care , as for the people purchasing it , if you can't purchase it then why should they sell it , you don't actually support sex work, because that would mean accepting the consumer base ad well as the supplier",
">\n\nThat’s a really big if though, sex work isn’t exactly an industry where you will know for sure if the service you’re getting is consensual. individuals who are victims of sexual trafficking, coercion, or just life circumstance aren’t likely to just tell their “customers” if it isn’t consensual. they could endanger themselves or not be aware that they can say something. \nSeeing someone as an object vs seeing them as an individual with a job aren’t the same though? yes we recognize actors and football players by their career choice and how well they are at it, but they’re still people at the end of the day? that’s why they have fanbases, interviews, paparazzi, popularity on social media, movie adaptions of their life exist—people are interested in more than them just doing their job.\nA persons job is no reason to suddenly strip them of their humanity and rights granted them for being such, that kind of mentality is morally skewed and why a lot of people would not support sex work. plus you can’t say it makes sense for sex workers to be see as commodities only and then believe sex work will be consensual. the whole consent part comes from recognizing that this is another person who has their own boundaries and limits beyond just what you want.",
">\n\nokay, that’s a plumber and not a person you’re having sex with. unlike plumbing which is clean cut, sex can include multiple aspects of different kinks and fetishes. You can’t expect a sex worker to be okay with say participating in rape play, anal, scat, and a mirage of other kinks simply because they agreed to sex. Sex is not clean cut, there is more to it. There has to be a boundary somewhere, this is another person body not a pipe.",
">\n\nThat’s like the point? recognizing the boundary and proceeding from there by RESPECTING the boundary because they are another person and not some masturbatory object. What you just said was a consensual interaction. The initial point was that there is no consensual sex without respecting the party that’s giving as a person.",
">\n\nSo... there's a concept of a moral hazard. \nThere's literally no way for an individual to be certain that their prostitute is not being coerced/trafficked. Even if there are some special circumstances where it might be unlikely, certainty is still impossible, and most people frequenting prostitutes are not in those special circumstances.\nSomeone using their services is therefore extremely likely to be comfortable with risking that they are unknowingly raping someone. \nGenerally speaking, people find that disgusting.",
">\n\nIf you eat chocolate (even the stuff with the fair trade sticker) then there's no guarantee that it hasn't come from slave farms which are not uncommon. If you eat chocolate throughout your life then you are almost definitely contributing to slavery. If you visit a prostitute regularly then the chance they're being exploited is anywhere from functioninally 0% to 100%. So why treat the John who might be discerning with scorn and not the chocolate eater who is a much safer bet in having contributed to coerced labour.",
">\n\nIt's worth trying to avoid those situations, but ultimately it's a very false equivalence to hold people responsible for the actions of others, vs. their own personal actions.\nWhen you buy chocolate, you're not actually holding a gun to a slave, someone else is. The right answer to that is to lobby for worker protections for imported goods, and to try to end involuntary servitude within your country as well. \nWhen you have sex with a trafficked person, you personally literally raped them. If you don't have good evidence to know they aren't trafficked, you're personally ok with the possibility you're going to personally rape them. \nBoth might be considered bad. But it's a false equivalence.\nAnd sure... if someone is paying someone for sex when they are personal friends with them, and interact with them outside of prostitution enough to personally know that they aren't being trafficked... and you're sure they aren't lying, scorning them more than at most some light ribbing isn't justified. It's not like \"sugar daddies\" aren't a thing as well. At the very least much less disapprobation would be appropriate.",
">\n\nIn both cases, there is a customer receiving a service provided by a potentially enslaved person. They are morally equivalent. It makes no sense to say “sure I bought the slavery chocolate, but you can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”",
">\n\n\nyou can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”\n\nThe slavers actions are distinct from the consumers' actions for most things. \nThis is an actual important difference when it comes to prostitution. \nIgnoring that fundamental difference doesn't make it go away, and it's entirely reasonable for someone to make that distinction.",
">\n\nThe slaver and consumer are different people who take different actions in the prostitution scenario. The consumer in both scenarios is taking the risk of being immoral. If I force you to be my slave that’s still immoral whether or not I put you to work in my brothel or mine or factory or fishing boat. And if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever, it’s equivalent.",
">\n\n\nAnd if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever , it’s equivalent.\n\nThis is where the false equivalence comes in. \nSomeone making products with slave labor is not renting out a slave to the consumer so that they consumer can force them to perform mining for the consumer. They are enslaving the labor to create a product, and selling the product. Products don't have rights to violate. The only person violating the rights of the slave is the slaver.\nSomeone trafficking a victim is renting out that victim so that the consumer can rape them.",
">\n\nIf the sex is only contractual to you? Why not just \"hook up.\" Why pay? You will never be able to guarantee they are not being trafficked. If they are, they are not going to tell you. I think the idea of money exchanging hands for sex is the why most have a problem. The idea that you are giving a woman money for sex has been historically seen as her being a whore. \nI am not saying she is. I am saying that from the time it first exchanged hands, that is what it was. Men who could not find a woman, paid a woman. Why do you want others to see it differently? Yes, there will be outliers that will enjoy the work. But those are going to be ones that, like the escort, chose it, and charge what they want. Not the typical street hookers on the corner with pimps to pay. \nProve they are not trafficked, they work for themselves, they are clean (of both drugs and diseases - because they are taking care of themselves and being safe), and that they are a sex worker because they enjoy the work or that that chose the work. Then, hey! Pay 'em and get to it!",
">\n\nI think it is morally unhealthy to normalize it. Even though you have to be an adult to smoke weed, we definitely see weed as a normal thing to do in moderation compared to a few decades ago. This is how we would see prostitution if it was normalized. And I think weed has a lot less complications than legalizing prostitution. A LOT!\nSex work online is a lot safer and requires a lot less mental issues to engage in and promote. But even then, I know some sex workers (online type), and they are scarred by the stuff they have seen when it comes to their job. They have told me stories that are extremely disturbing. These are women who just do stuff by themselves. Not working with a porn company and other people.\nAlso, sex has a huge reputation for being violent and demoralizing towards women in general. I'd assume those numbers would be much higher in men looking to pay for sex. You'd have to have extremely strict and tight regulations for this sort of thing, which would take the fun out of it for a lot of people. And even then, there would still be many mistakes that would happen before we find out all the regulations that are needed. And I don't think we could ever make it mentally and physically safe for women.\nNow, do I think it should be decriminalized for prostitutes? Definitely. I don't see them as disgusting. I feel quite bad for them. Most of them were trafficked at a young age. Do I see men wanting to pay for sex as disgusting? Not necessarily. It depends on the person and the situation. However, this isn't a simple issue where if we just \"stop judging people,\" everything will be fine.",
">\n\nDecriminalizing prostitution for both those selling and buying is demonstrably safer for prostitutes. If it is criminal for the buyer but not the seller, the buyer is often highly defensive and paranoid about the seller, specifically the possibility that they may be working with law enforcement. The buyer will often push to do it in a highly isolated setting as well. These things increase violence that sex workers face, and the averages go down in places where it is decriminalized to both buy and sell. If you have a designated work place for it and no one needs to be distrustful and worried about being arrested, that is the safest situation for all involved. \nWe may disagree with buying it for whatever moral reason, but if we choose to criminalize the purchase of it, we are prioritizing punishing behavior we morally disagree with over prioritizing the safety of those involved, which I can't get behind.",
">\n\nBut there are so many more facets to the safety of legalizing it for the buyer other than them being pushy or wanting to do it in a hidden area. If we legalized it, it still wouldn't really help any of the points I made or is even something that is so overwhelmingly an issue compared to the points I made.",
">\n\nSo long as we have to work to live, all jobs are coercive, even sex work. I’m skeptical that there can ever be a consensual exchange within our current economic context.",
">\n\nExactly , I get sex is intimate but if you are willing to view sex work as any other job , you should be willing to treat it as such",
">\n\nSex work has certain occupational hazards that cannot be regulated away. OSHA (in the US) dictates that a person cannot be subject to bodily fluids without proper PPE in the workplace, and often johns just need to pay more to not wear a condom. Imagine a construction site paying workers more to not wear a hard hat. The greater potential for bodily harm is intrinsic to the work, and it will always be unsafe.",
">\n\nTrue but this doesn't really answer my question",
">\n\nMy point is that treating it like any other job is not ethically possible due to hazardous conditions",
">\n\nThis is a bad take.\nI’d wager prostitution doesn’t even rank in the top ten dangerous jobs by capita.",
">\n\nThat really depends. A gas station cashier likely has a higher risk of being killed. But a quick Google shows sex workers are thirty times more likely to get Aids than the general population. They're also at ridiculously high rates of risk to their mental health. Ptsd is common. Also, yes, sitting at a counter in a gas station is technically dangerous. But it is different type of danger compared to someone fucking them in the ass while shoving a sock in their mouth and calling them a dirty whore. When this happens to a prostitute, since she isn't dead, then all good right?! :) Her job isn't dangerous, she's still alive! And they're really not paid much. Average pay for a sex scene in porn for a woman is around $600, for the guy it's like a hundred. For prostitution you're looking at a hundred to two hundred dollars. \nAlso, if you're in the us. Good luck affording health insurance as an independent contractor engaged in sex work.",
">\n\nI’m not exactly impressed with the American system so if you’re criticising Americans health system then fuck yeah more power to you.\nYou raise fantastic points about there being non lethal dangers in sex work that are worth considering and harder to measure.\nThat being said, sit for a while and think about whether you think that sex workers are in a job so dangerous that it deserves its own category and shouldn’t even be allowed. (This is what the commenter I was responding to was claiming)\nI’m comfortable I’d ban lumberjack as a profession long before I considered banning prostitution based on relative level of danger and conditions.\nI don’t have a specific statistic but soldiers at an educated guess would probably be more likely to experience danger and mental issues but the commenter I responded to probably never thought for one second about banning soldiers on that basis.\nIt’s clear bias, being rationalised as something it isn’t.",
">\n\nIt's decriminalised where I live, which means women can arrange anything themselves. So you can have a strip club with a \"hotel\" above it. Basically 100% of the workers are foreign, from places like Ukraine. Russia, Moldova, Romania. Etc. It's a strange aspect which isn't often brought up. But\"legalizing \" almost always results on foreign workers undercutting any local workforce. How can a 26 year old American girl from the burbs compete with an 18 year Thai girl? One is fine doing work at basically the rates of a full time McDonald's employee, while the other isn't. And of course, that breeds the type of people you'd imagine running the business. Even in places like Amsterdam, where there's tons of regulation, you get the same trafficking you see anywhere else.\nSo morally. I've got zero problem. But I've just never seen a model that can actually ensure safety for everyone involved.",
">\n\nWell culture is everything isn't it? Of there wasn't so much sex tourism from places that have prostitution illegal there would probably be less demand wouldn't there? Less demand would make the whole industry safer imo due to the loss of money driving the search for foreign market girls\nLike imagine the whole world has a brothel just down the block. Does that make it more safe just by sheer volume and normality?",
">\n\nFirstly, i'm not religious, i'm sex-positive and the sex lives of strangers rarely concerns me. I don't think paying for these services makes you a \"bad\" person, nor a \"disgusting\" one.. but for me, it would affect your desirability to me as a partner. To me attraction is a big thing, and i'll be honest, I see it as kind of lame. Not morally corrupt but just ...desperate. \nI would want my partner to be someone that women wanted to have sex with, not the man that they had sex with as a purely profitable transaction. Whilst it's consensual, when you involve money or a benefit other than sex, the line slightly blurs, and I find it becomes icky. \nIt's not even that I think my partner should only have had strictly intimate and personable relations... but the question does spring to mind of \"is sex that has been paid for truly consensual? can you guarantee that?\" Even popular Pornstars who previously agreed to do porn and made careers out of it have stories where they later felt disgusted by what they've had to do but were so enamored by the money, they went through with it. Sex workers will ALWAYS sell a positive image to their clients, part of their job is to make you feel desired, but you never truly know the reality. \nAll in all, it can be seen as \"bad\" or \"disgusting\" because monetary rewards affects the lines of purely consensual sex. The same way it can be icky for a boss to have sex with the intern, the same way directors have sex with actresses that want to star in their movies, and the same way rockstars have sex with their fans. Doesn't make 'em rapists, but it's why people won't look at it as respectable."
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I’m generally sex positive to consensual sex between people. However, everything falls on a spectrum and I don’t think you have to have a certain view on every avenue to be as such. Much like you can love your job, your country or your friends but that doesn’t mean you can’t provide any forms of criticism nor must you love EVERY aspect of these things.
I have no disdain for people who hook up on dating apps, clubs, attend sex parties etc. I will always believe sex workers should have right to practice and do so in a safe environment. I also wouldn’t stop their client base either, it’s not my business, but there are ethical implications and I’ve said my view from the perspective of my partner which naturally i hold to a more personable standard. I wouldn’t want to be with someone who puts their sexual desires above the possible implications involved in sex work.
I do want to touch on your point that as long as it’s not coerced or forced, it’s okay. The ethical implication behind this is that when you involve money, this is not guaranteed. Not all clients will take the time to research the background and extra people involved behind the scenes. The women with pimps and who are trafficked won’t spill those beans to you. Again, there will always be exceptions to the rule.
I understand that sex work is convenient to many but my perception is not swayed by the mere idea that paying for sex means you get to avoid having to flirt with women. Much like I can understand why people have no choice to purchase fast fashion and I’ll understand the reasoning but that does not mean I should ignore the child labour and poor conditions that make this possible.
All in all, I won’t stop you but I’m going to think it’s kinda lame. You can wear an item of clothing, I’ll defend you to wear that clothing and I won’t make you feel bad for wearing it.. but I may not like it myself.
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[
"/u/Due-Lie-8710 (OP) has awarded 7 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nThere's a song I like that speaks on this fairly poetically, so I'd like to start by just directly quoting it:\n\nSo when you bled on the bed as you fed those expectations, as a whore and not a human, you embraced with hesitation the very parameters of all you can be. Not a mother, not an aunt, not a sister who's not subdued. Because dignity's not physical, and your flesh means more than you.\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.",
">\n\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.\n\nFirst of all if you aren't trafficked it is just like another job, as for you both being seen as human , make sense hey aren't there to befriend to have sex , you are performing a service, it's like you watching football or a movie, you only see them as footballers ot actors , half of the time they don't care about their personal life, there are some jobs that prevent you from getting any high paying jobs or jobs that involve care , as for the people purchasing it , if you can't purchase it then why should they sell it , you don't actually support sex work, because that would mean accepting the consumer base ad well as the supplier",
">\n\nThat’s a really big if though, sex work isn’t exactly an industry where you will know for sure if the service you’re getting is consensual. individuals who are victims of sexual trafficking, coercion, or just life circumstance aren’t likely to just tell their “customers” if it isn’t consensual. they could endanger themselves or not be aware that they can say something. \nSeeing someone as an object vs seeing them as an individual with a job aren’t the same though? yes we recognize actors and football players by their career choice and how well they are at it, but they’re still people at the end of the day? that’s why they have fanbases, interviews, paparazzi, popularity on social media, movie adaptions of their life exist—people are interested in more than them just doing their job.\nA persons job is no reason to suddenly strip them of their humanity and rights granted them for being such, that kind of mentality is morally skewed and why a lot of people would not support sex work. plus you can’t say it makes sense for sex workers to be see as commodities only and then believe sex work will be consensual. the whole consent part comes from recognizing that this is another person who has their own boundaries and limits beyond just what you want.",
">\n\nokay, that’s a plumber and not a person you’re having sex with. unlike plumbing which is clean cut, sex can include multiple aspects of different kinks and fetishes. You can’t expect a sex worker to be okay with say participating in rape play, anal, scat, and a mirage of other kinks simply because they agreed to sex. Sex is not clean cut, there is more to it. There has to be a boundary somewhere, this is another person body not a pipe.",
">\n\nThat’s like the point? recognizing the boundary and proceeding from there by RESPECTING the boundary because they are another person and not some masturbatory object. What you just said was a consensual interaction. The initial point was that there is no consensual sex without respecting the party that’s giving as a person.",
">\n\nSo... there's a concept of a moral hazard. \nThere's literally no way for an individual to be certain that their prostitute is not being coerced/trafficked. Even if there are some special circumstances where it might be unlikely, certainty is still impossible, and most people frequenting prostitutes are not in those special circumstances.\nSomeone using their services is therefore extremely likely to be comfortable with risking that they are unknowingly raping someone. \nGenerally speaking, people find that disgusting.",
">\n\nIf you eat chocolate (even the stuff with the fair trade sticker) then there's no guarantee that it hasn't come from slave farms which are not uncommon. If you eat chocolate throughout your life then you are almost definitely contributing to slavery. If you visit a prostitute regularly then the chance they're being exploited is anywhere from functioninally 0% to 100%. So why treat the John who might be discerning with scorn and not the chocolate eater who is a much safer bet in having contributed to coerced labour.",
">\n\nIt's worth trying to avoid those situations, but ultimately it's a very false equivalence to hold people responsible for the actions of others, vs. their own personal actions.\nWhen you buy chocolate, you're not actually holding a gun to a slave, someone else is. The right answer to that is to lobby for worker protections for imported goods, and to try to end involuntary servitude within your country as well. \nWhen you have sex with a trafficked person, you personally literally raped them. If you don't have good evidence to know they aren't trafficked, you're personally ok with the possibility you're going to personally rape them. \nBoth might be considered bad. But it's a false equivalence.\nAnd sure... if someone is paying someone for sex when they are personal friends with them, and interact with them outside of prostitution enough to personally know that they aren't being trafficked... and you're sure they aren't lying, scorning them more than at most some light ribbing isn't justified. It's not like \"sugar daddies\" aren't a thing as well. At the very least much less disapprobation would be appropriate.",
">\n\nIn both cases, there is a customer receiving a service provided by a potentially enslaved person. They are morally equivalent. It makes no sense to say “sure I bought the slavery chocolate, but you can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”",
">\n\n\nyou can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”\n\nThe slavers actions are distinct from the consumers' actions for most things. \nThis is an actual important difference when it comes to prostitution. \nIgnoring that fundamental difference doesn't make it go away, and it's entirely reasonable for someone to make that distinction.",
">\n\nThe slaver and consumer are different people who take different actions in the prostitution scenario. The consumer in both scenarios is taking the risk of being immoral. If I force you to be my slave that’s still immoral whether or not I put you to work in my brothel or mine or factory or fishing boat. And if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever, it’s equivalent.",
">\n\n\nAnd if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever , it’s equivalent.\n\nThis is where the false equivalence comes in. \nSomeone making products with slave labor is not renting out a slave to the consumer so that they consumer can force them to perform mining for the consumer. They are enslaving the labor to create a product, and selling the product. Products don't have rights to violate. The only person violating the rights of the slave is the slaver.\nSomeone trafficking a victim is renting out that victim so that the consumer can rape them.",
">\n\nIf the sex is only contractual to you? Why not just \"hook up.\" Why pay? You will never be able to guarantee they are not being trafficked. If they are, they are not going to tell you. I think the idea of money exchanging hands for sex is the why most have a problem. The idea that you are giving a woman money for sex has been historically seen as her being a whore. \nI am not saying she is. I am saying that from the time it first exchanged hands, that is what it was. Men who could not find a woman, paid a woman. Why do you want others to see it differently? Yes, there will be outliers that will enjoy the work. But those are going to be ones that, like the escort, chose it, and charge what they want. Not the typical street hookers on the corner with pimps to pay. \nProve they are not trafficked, they work for themselves, they are clean (of both drugs and diseases - because they are taking care of themselves and being safe), and that they are a sex worker because they enjoy the work or that that chose the work. Then, hey! Pay 'em and get to it!",
">\n\nI think it is morally unhealthy to normalize it. Even though you have to be an adult to smoke weed, we definitely see weed as a normal thing to do in moderation compared to a few decades ago. This is how we would see prostitution if it was normalized. And I think weed has a lot less complications than legalizing prostitution. A LOT!\nSex work online is a lot safer and requires a lot less mental issues to engage in and promote. But even then, I know some sex workers (online type), and they are scarred by the stuff they have seen when it comes to their job. They have told me stories that are extremely disturbing. These are women who just do stuff by themselves. Not working with a porn company and other people.\nAlso, sex has a huge reputation for being violent and demoralizing towards women in general. I'd assume those numbers would be much higher in men looking to pay for sex. You'd have to have extremely strict and tight regulations for this sort of thing, which would take the fun out of it for a lot of people. And even then, there would still be many mistakes that would happen before we find out all the regulations that are needed. And I don't think we could ever make it mentally and physically safe for women.\nNow, do I think it should be decriminalized for prostitutes? Definitely. I don't see them as disgusting. I feel quite bad for them. Most of them were trafficked at a young age. Do I see men wanting to pay for sex as disgusting? Not necessarily. It depends on the person and the situation. However, this isn't a simple issue where if we just \"stop judging people,\" everything will be fine.",
">\n\nDecriminalizing prostitution for both those selling and buying is demonstrably safer for prostitutes. If it is criminal for the buyer but not the seller, the buyer is often highly defensive and paranoid about the seller, specifically the possibility that they may be working with law enforcement. The buyer will often push to do it in a highly isolated setting as well. These things increase violence that sex workers face, and the averages go down in places where it is decriminalized to both buy and sell. If you have a designated work place for it and no one needs to be distrustful and worried about being arrested, that is the safest situation for all involved. \nWe may disagree with buying it for whatever moral reason, but if we choose to criminalize the purchase of it, we are prioritizing punishing behavior we morally disagree with over prioritizing the safety of those involved, which I can't get behind.",
">\n\nBut there are so many more facets to the safety of legalizing it for the buyer other than them being pushy or wanting to do it in a hidden area. If we legalized it, it still wouldn't really help any of the points I made or is even something that is so overwhelmingly an issue compared to the points I made.",
">\n\nSo long as we have to work to live, all jobs are coercive, even sex work. I’m skeptical that there can ever be a consensual exchange within our current economic context.",
">\n\nExactly , I get sex is intimate but if you are willing to view sex work as any other job , you should be willing to treat it as such",
">\n\nSex work has certain occupational hazards that cannot be regulated away. OSHA (in the US) dictates that a person cannot be subject to bodily fluids without proper PPE in the workplace, and often johns just need to pay more to not wear a condom. Imagine a construction site paying workers more to not wear a hard hat. The greater potential for bodily harm is intrinsic to the work, and it will always be unsafe.",
">\n\nTrue but this doesn't really answer my question",
">\n\nMy point is that treating it like any other job is not ethically possible due to hazardous conditions",
">\n\nThis is a bad take.\nI’d wager prostitution doesn’t even rank in the top ten dangerous jobs by capita.",
">\n\nThat really depends. A gas station cashier likely has a higher risk of being killed. But a quick Google shows sex workers are thirty times more likely to get Aids than the general population. They're also at ridiculously high rates of risk to their mental health. Ptsd is common. Also, yes, sitting at a counter in a gas station is technically dangerous. But it is different type of danger compared to someone fucking them in the ass while shoving a sock in their mouth and calling them a dirty whore. When this happens to a prostitute, since she isn't dead, then all good right?! :) Her job isn't dangerous, she's still alive! And they're really not paid much. Average pay for a sex scene in porn for a woman is around $600, for the guy it's like a hundred. For prostitution you're looking at a hundred to two hundred dollars. \nAlso, if you're in the us. Good luck affording health insurance as an independent contractor engaged in sex work.",
">\n\nI’m not exactly impressed with the American system so if you’re criticising Americans health system then fuck yeah more power to you.\nYou raise fantastic points about there being non lethal dangers in sex work that are worth considering and harder to measure.\nThat being said, sit for a while and think about whether you think that sex workers are in a job so dangerous that it deserves its own category and shouldn’t even be allowed. (This is what the commenter I was responding to was claiming)\nI’m comfortable I’d ban lumberjack as a profession long before I considered banning prostitution based on relative level of danger and conditions.\nI don’t have a specific statistic but soldiers at an educated guess would probably be more likely to experience danger and mental issues but the commenter I responded to probably never thought for one second about banning soldiers on that basis.\nIt’s clear bias, being rationalised as something it isn’t.",
">\n\nIt's decriminalised where I live, which means women can arrange anything themselves. So you can have a strip club with a \"hotel\" above it. Basically 100% of the workers are foreign, from places like Ukraine. Russia, Moldova, Romania. Etc. It's a strange aspect which isn't often brought up. But\"legalizing \" almost always results on foreign workers undercutting any local workforce. How can a 26 year old American girl from the burbs compete with an 18 year Thai girl? One is fine doing work at basically the rates of a full time McDonald's employee, while the other isn't. And of course, that breeds the type of people you'd imagine running the business. Even in places like Amsterdam, where there's tons of regulation, you get the same trafficking you see anywhere else.\nSo morally. I've got zero problem. But I've just never seen a model that can actually ensure safety for everyone involved.",
">\n\nWell culture is everything isn't it? Of there wasn't so much sex tourism from places that have prostitution illegal there would probably be less demand wouldn't there? Less demand would make the whole industry safer imo due to the loss of money driving the search for foreign market girls\nLike imagine the whole world has a brothel just down the block. Does that make it more safe just by sheer volume and normality?",
">\n\nFirstly, i'm not religious, i'm sex-positive and the sex lives of strangers rarely concerns me. I don't think paying for these services makes you a \"bad\" person, nor a \"disgusting\" one.. but for me, it would affect your desirability to me as a partner. To me attraction is a big thing, and i'll be honest, I see it as kind of lame. Not morally corrupt but just ...desperate. \nI would want my partner to be someone that women wanted to have sex with, not the man that they had sex with as a purely profitable transaction. Whilst it's consensual, when you involve money or a benefit other than sex, the line slightly blurs, and I find it becomes icky. \nIt's not even that I think my partner should only have had strictly intimate and personable relations... but the question does spring to mind of \"is sex that has been paid for truly consensual? can you guarantee that?\" Even popular Pornstars who previously agreed to do porn and made careers out of it have stories where they later felt disgusted by what they've had to do but were so enamored by the money, they went through with it. Sex workers will ALWAYS sell a positive image to their clients, part of their job is to make you feel desired, but you never truly know the reality. \nAll in all, it can be seen as \"bad\" or \"disgusting\" because monetary rewards affects the lines of purely consensual sex. The same way it can be icky for a boss to have sex with the intern, the same way directors have sex with actresses that want to star in their movies, and the same way rockstars have sex with their fans. Doesn't make 'em rapists, but it's why people won't look at it as respectable.",
">\n\nyou aren’t sex positive if you think paying for sex is desperate.\ndoes paying for alcohol mean you’re desperate for happiness? some people want to have fun so they buy drinks, others find more fun in sex. as long as sex work is consensual and not the result of pimping or some other form of coercion then I don’t see any harm or how it would be desperate.\nthere are tangible benefits to buying sex vs finding it “naturally” that i don’t think you’re considering. \nwith sex workers you’re safer and don’t have to worry about pregnancy, theft, psychotic women, and other risks that come from random hookups with strangers or even casual dating. there’s also the whole “i don’t need to put time and effort into finding and flirting with someone” when it can be on demand. yea making food at home is usually cheaper and better tasting than takeout but sometimes you’re lazy and want a pizza delivered."
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Reading your posts made me think of a bird preening it's feathers to attract a mate. I thought it was just you being obtuse untill you brought fashion into this lol
You really are just a pair of eyes arnt you. No complexity attached. "I saw it in the window so I bought it! I didn't even care that it was 500$ I just wanted it because the other girls were eyeing it down and I just HAD to have it💅"
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"/u/Due-Lie-8710 (OP) has awarded 7 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nThere's a song I like that speaks on this fairly poetically, so I'd like to start by just directly quoting it:\n\nSo when you bled on the bed as you fed those expectations, as a whore and not a human, you embraced with hesitation the very parameters of all you can be. Not a mother, not an aunt, not a sister who's not subdued. Because dignity's not physical, and your flesh means more than you.\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.",
">\n\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.\n\nFirst of all if you aren't trafficked it is just like another job, as for you both being seen as human , make sense hey aren't there to befriend to have sex , you are performing a service, it's like you watching football or a movie, you only see them as footballers ot actors , half of the time they don't care about their personal life, there are some jobs that prevent you from getting any high paying jobs or jobs that involve care , as for the people purchasing it , if you can't purchase it then why should they sell it , you don't actually support sex work, because that would mean accepting the consumer base ad well as the supplier",
">\n\nThat’s a really big if though, sex work isn’t exactly an industry where you will know for sure if the service you’re getting is consensual. individuals who are victims of sexual trafficking, coercion, or just life circumstance aren’t likely to just tell their “customers” if it isn’t consensual. they could endanger themselves or not be aware that they can say something. \nSeeing someone as an object vs seeing them as an individual with a job aren’t the same though? yes we recognize actors and football players by their career choice and how well they are at it, but they’re still people at the end of the day? that’s why they have fanbases, interviews, paparazzi, popularity on social media, movie adaptions of their life exist—people are interested in more than them just doing their job.\nA persons job is no reason to suddenly strip them of their humanity and rights granted them for being such, that kind of mentality is morally skewed and why a lot of people would not support sex work. plus you can’t say it makes sense for sex workers to be see as commodities only and then believe sex work will be consensual. the whole consent part comes from recognizing that this is another person who has their own boundaries and limits beyond just what you want.",
">\n\nokay, that’s a plumber and not a person you’re having sex with. unlike plumbing which is clean cut, sex can include multiple aspects of different kinks and fetishes. You can’t expect a sex worker to be okay with say participating in rape play, anal, scat, and a mirage of other kinks simply because they agreed to sex. Sex is not clean cut, there is more to it. There has to be a boundary somewhere, this is another person body not a pipe.",
">\n\nThat’s like the point? recognizing the boundary and proceeding from there by RESPECTING the boundary because they are another person and not some masturbatory object. What you just said was a consensual interaction. The initial point was that there is no consensual sex without respecting the party that’s giving as a person.",
">\n\nSo... there's a concept of a moral hazard. \nThere's literally no way for an individual to be certain that their prostitute is not being coerced/trafficked. Even if there are some special circumstances where it might be unlikely, certainty is still impossible, and most people frequenting prostitutes are not in those special circumstances.\nSomeone using their services is therefore extremely likely to be comfortable with risking that they are unknowingly raping someone. \nGenerally speaking, people find that disgusting.",
">\n\nIf you eat chocolate (even the stuff with the fair trade sticker) then there's no guarantee that it hasn't come from slave farms which are not uncommon. If you eat chocolate throughout your life then you are almost definitely contributing to slavery. If you visit a prostitute regularly then the chance they're being exploited is anywhere from functioninally 0% to 100%. So why treat the John who might be discerning with scorn and not the chocolate eater who is a much safer bet in having contributed to coerced labour.",
">\n\nIt's worth trying to avoid those situations, but ultimately it's a very false equivalence to hold people responsible for the actions of others, vs. their own personal actions.\nWhen you buy chocolate, you're not actually holding a gun to a slave, someone else is. The right answer to that is to lobby for worker protections for imported goods, and to try to end involuntary servitude within your country as well. \nWhen you have sex with a trafficked person, you personally literally raped them. If you don't have good evidence to know they aren't trafficked, you're personally ok with the possibility you're going to personally rape them. \nBoth might be considered bad. But it's a false equivalence.\nAnd sure... if someone is paying someone for sex when they are personal friends with them, and interact with them outside of prostitution enough to personally know that they aren't being trafficked... and you're sure they aren't lying, scorning them more than at most some light ribbing isn't justified. It's not like \"sugar daddies\" aren't a thing as well. At the very least much less disapprobation would be appropriate.",
">\n\nIn both cases, there is a customer receiving a service provided by a potentially enslaved person. They are morally equivalent. It makes no sense to say “sure I bought the slavery chocolate, but you can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”",
">\n\n\nyou can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”\n\nThe slavers actions are distinct from the consumers' actions for most things. \nThis is an actual important difference when it comes to prostitution. \nIgnoring that fundamental difference doesn't make it go away, and it's entirely reasonable for someone to make that distinction.",
">\n\nThe slaver and consumer are different people who take different actions in the prostitution scenario. The consumer in both scenarios is taking the risk of being immoral. If I force you to be my slave that’s still immoral whether or not I put you to work in my brothel or mine or factory or fishing boat. And if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever, it’s equivalent.",
">\n\n\nAnd if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever , it’s equivalent.\n\nThis is where the false equivalence comes in. \nSomeone making products with slave labor is not renting out a slave to the consumer so that they consumer can force them to perform mining for the consumer. They are enslaving the labor to create a product, and selling the product. Products don't have rights to violate. The only person violating the rights of the slave is the slaver.\nSomeone trafficking a victim is renting out that victim so that the consumer can rape them.",
">\n\nIf the sex is only contractual to you? Why not just \"hook up.\" Why pay? You will never be able to guarantee they are not being trafficked. If they are, they are not going to tell you. I think the idea of money exchanging hands for sex is the why most have a problem. The idea that you are giving a woman money for sex has been historically seen as her being a whore. \nI am not saying she is. I am saying that from the time it first exchanged hands, that is what it was. Men who could not find a woman, paid a woman. Why do you want others to see it differently? Yes, there will be outliers that will enjoy the work. But those are going to be ones that, like the escort, chose it, and charge what they want. Not the typical street hookers on the corner with pimps to pay. \nProve they are not trafficked, they work for themselves, they are clean (of both drugs and diseases - because they are taking care of themselves and being safe), and that they are a sex worker because they enjoy the work or that that chose the work. Then, hey! Pay 'em and get to it!",
">\n\nI think it is morally unhealthy to normalize it. Even though you have to be an adult to smoke weed, we definitely see weed as a normal thing to do in moderation compared to a few decades ago. This is how we would see prostitution if it was normalized. And I think weed has a lot less complications than legalizing prostitution. A LOT!\nSex work online is a lot safer and requires a lot less mental issues to engage in and promote. But even then, I know some sex workers (online type), and they are scarred by the stuff they have seen when it comes to their job. They have told me stories that are extremely disturbing. These are women who just do stuff by themselves. Not working with a porn company and other people.\nAlso, sex has a huge reputation for being violent and demoralizing towards women in general. I'd assume those numbers would be much higher in men looking to pay for sex. You'd have to have extremely strict and tight regulations for this sort of thing, which would take the fun out of it for a lot of people. And even then, there would still be many mistakes that would happen before we find out all the regulations that are needed. And I don't think we could ever make it mentally and physically safe for women.\nNow, do I think it should be decriminalized for prostitutes? Definitely. I don't see them as disgusting. I feel quite bad for them. Most of them were trafficked at a young age. Do I see men wanting to pay for sex as disgusting? Not necessarily. It depends on the person and the situation. However, this isn't a simple issue where if we just \"stop judging people,\" everything will be fine.",
">\n\nDecriminalizing prostitution for both those selling and buying is demonstrably safer for prostitutes. If it is criminal for the buyer but not the seller, the buyer is often highly defensive and paranoid about the seller, specifically the possibility that they may be working with law enforcement. The buyer will often push to do it in a highly isolated setting as well. These things increase violence that sex workers face, and the averages go down in places where it is decriminalized to both buy and sell. If you have a designated work place for it and no one needs to be distrustful and worried about being arrested, that is the safest situation for all involved. \nWe may disagree with buying it for whatever moral reason, but if we choose to criminalize the purchase of it, we are prioritizing punishing behavior we morally disagree with over prioritizing the safety of those involved, which I can't get behind.",
">\n\nBut there are so many more facets to the safety of legalizing it for the buyer other than them being pushy or wanting to do it in a hidden area. If we legalized it, it still wouldn't really help any of the points I made or is even something that is so overwhelmingly an issue compared to the points I made.",
">\n\nSo long as we have to work to live, all jobs are coercive, even sex work. I’m skeptical that there can ever be a consensual exchange within our current economic context.",
">\n\nExactly , I get sex is intimate but if you are willing to view sex work as any other job , you should be willing to treat it as such",
">\n\nSex work has certain occupational hazards that cannot be regulated away. OSHA (in the US) dictates that a person cannot be subject to bodily fluids without proper PPE in the workplace, and often johns just need to pay more to not wear a condom. Imagine a construction site paying workers more to not wear a hard hat. The greater potential for bodily harm is intrinsic to the work, and it will always be unsafe.",
">\n\nTrue but this doesn't really answer my question",
">\n\nMy point is that treating it like any other job is not ethically possible due to hazardous conditions",
">\n\nThis is a bad take.\nI’d wager prostitution doesn’t even rank in the top ten dangerous jobs by capita.",
">\n\nThat really depends. A gas station cashier likely has a higher risk of being killed. But a quick Google shows sex workers are thirty times more likely to get Aids than the general population. They're also at ridiculously high rates of risk to their mental health. Ptsd is common. Also, yes, sitting at a counter in a gas station is technically dangerous. But it is different type of danger compared to someone fucking them in the ass while shoving a sock in their mouth and calling them a dirty whore. When this happens to a prostitute, since she isn't dead, then all good right?! :) Her job isn't dangerous, she's still alive! And they're really not paid much. Average pay for a sex scene in porn for a woman is around $600, for the guy it's like a hundred. For prostitution you're looking at a hundred to two hundred dollars. \nAlso, if you're in the us. Good luck affording health insurance as an independent contractor engaged in sex work.",
">\n\nI’m not exactly impressed with the American system so if you’re criticising Americans health system then fuck yeah more power to you.\nYou raise fantastic points about there being non lethal dangers in sex work that are worth considering and harder to measure.\nThat being said, sit for a while and think about whether you think that sex workers are in a job so dangerous that it deserves its own category and shouldn’t even be allowed. (This is what the commenter I was responding to was claiming)\nI’m comfortable I’d ban lumberjack as a profession long before I considered banning prostitution based on relative level of danger and conditions.\nI don’t have a specific statistic but soldiers at an educated guess would probably be more likely to experience danger and mental issues but the commenter I responded to probably never thought for one second about banning soldiers on that basis.\nIt’s clear bias, being rationalised as something it isn’t.",
">\n\nIt's decriminalised where I live, which means women can arrange anything themselves. So you can have a strip club with a \"hotel\" above it. Basically 100% of the workers are foreign, from places like Ukraine. Russia, Moldova, Romania. Etc. It's a strange aspect which isn't often brought up. But\"legalizing \" almost always results on foreign workers undercutting any local workforce. How can a 26 year old American girl from the burbs compete with an 18 year Thai girl? One is fine doing work at basically the rates of a full time McDonald's employee, while the other isn't. And of course, that breeds the type of people you'd imagine running the business. Even in places like Amsterdam, where there's tons of regulation, you get the same trafficking you see anywhere else.\nSo morally. I've got zero problem. But I've just never seen a model that can actually ensure safety for everyone involved.",
">\n\nWell culture is everything isn't it? Of there wasn't so much sex tourism from places that have prostitution illegal there would probably be less demand wouldn't there? Less demand would make the whole industry safer imo due to the loss of money driving the search for foreign market girls\nLike imagine the whole world has a brothel just down the block. Does that make it more safe just by sheer volume and normality?",
">\n\nFirstly, i'm not religious, i'm sex-positive and the sex lives of strangers rarely concerns me. I don't think paying for these services makes you a \"bad\" person, nor a \"disgusting\" one.. but for me, it would affect your desirability to me as a partner. To me attraction is a big thing, and i'll be honest, I see it as kind of lame. Not morally corrupt but just ...desperate. \nI would want my partner to be someone that women wanted to have sex with, not the man that they had sex with as a purely profitable transaction. Whilst it's consensual, when you involve money or a benefit other than sex, the line slightly blurs, and I find it becomes icky. \nIt's not even that I think my partner should only have had strictly intimate and personable relations... but the question does spring to mind of \"is sex that has been paid for truly consensual? can you guarantee that?\" Even popular Pornstars who previously agreed to do porn and made careers out of it have stories where they later felt disgusted by what they've had to do but were so enamored by the money, they went through with it. Sex workers will ALWAYS sell a positive image to their clients, part of their job is to make you feel desired, but you never truly know the reality. \nAll in all, it can be seen as \"bad\" or \"disgusting\" because monetary rewards affects the lines of purely consensual sex. The same way it can be icky for a boss to have sex with the intern, the same way directors have sex with actresses that want to star in their movies, and the same way rockstars have sex with their fans. Doesn't make 'em rapists, but it's why people won't look at it as respectable.",
">\n\nyou aren’t sex positive if you think paying for sex is desperate.\ndoes paying for alcohol mean you’re desperate for happiness? some people want to have fun so they buy drinks, others find more fun in sex. as long as sex work is consensual and not the result of pimping or some other form of coercion then I don’t see any harm or how it would be desperate.\nthere are tangible benefits to buying sex vs finding it “naturally” that i don’t think you’re considering. \nwith sex workers you’re safer and don’t have to worry about pregnancy, theft, psychotic women, and other risks that come from random hookups with strangers or even casual dating. there’s also the whole “i don’t need to put time and effort into finding and flirting with someone” when it can be on demand. yea making food at home is usually cheaper and better tasting than takeout but sometimes you’re lazy and want a pizza delivered.",
">\n\nI’m generally sex positive to consensual sex between people. However, everything falls on a spectrum and I don’t think you have to have a certain view on every avenue to be as such. Much like you can love your job, your country or your friends but that doesn’t mean you can’t provide any forms of criticism nor must you love EVERY aspect of these things. \nI have no disdain for people who hook up on dating apps, clubs, attend sex parties etc. I will always believe sex workers should have right to practice and do so in a safe environment. I also wouldn’t stop their client base either, it’s not my business, but there are ethical implications and I’ve said my view from the perspective of my partner which naturally i hold to a more personable standard. I wouldn’t want to be with someone who puts their sexual desires above the possible implications involved in sex work. \nI do want to touch on your point that as long as it’s not coerced or forced, it’s okay. The ethical implication behind this is that when you involve money, this is not guaranteed. Not all clients will take the time to research the background and extra people involved behind the scenes. The women with pimps and who are trafficked won’t spill those beans to you. Again, there will always be exceptions to the rule. \nI understand that sex work is convenient to many but my perception is not swayed by the mere idea that paying for sex means you get to avoid having to flirt with women. Much like I can understand why people have no choice to purchase fast fashion and I’ll understand the reasoning but that does not mean I should ignore the child labour and poor conditions that make this possible. \nAll in all, I won’t stop you but I’m going to think it’s kinda lame. You can wear an item of clothing, I’ll defend you to wear that clothing and I won’t make you feel bad for wearing it.. but I may not like it myself."
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I genuinely have no idea what you’re trying to convey. The topic of fashion was merely to represent that there are often complexities and nuance. So yes, I can be sex positive but I don’t necessarily have to agree with all the variances within the to topic of sex.
I assume I’ve hit a nerve for your style of response.
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"/u/Due-Lie-8710 (OP) has awarded 7 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nThere's a song I like that speaks on this fairly poetically, so I'd like to start by just directly quoting it:\n\nSo when you bled on the bed as you fed those expectations, as a whore and not a human, you embraced with hesitation the very parameters of all you can be. Not a mother, not an aunt, not a sister who's not subdued. Because dignity's not physical, and your flesh means more than you.\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.",
">\n\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.\n\nFirst of all if you aren't trafficked it is just like another job, as for you both being seen as human , make sense hey aren't there to befriend to have sex , you are performing a service, it's like you watching football or a movie, you only see them as footballers ot actors , half of the time they don't care about their personal life, there are some jobs that prevent you from getting any high paying jobs or jobs that involve care , as for the people purchasing it , if you can't purchase it then why should they sell it , you don't actually support sex work, because that would mean accepting the consumer base ad well as the supplier",
">\n\nThat’s a really big if though, sex work isn’t exactly an industry where you will know for sure if the service you’re getting is consensual. individuals who are victims of sexual trafficking, coercion, or just life circumstance aren’t likely to just tell their “customers” if it isn’t consensual. they could endanger themselves or not be aware that they can say something. \nSeeing someone as an object vs seeing them as an individual with a job aren’t the same though? yes we recognize actors and football players by their career choice and how well they are at it, but they’re still people at the end of the day? that’s why they have fanbases, interviews, paparazzi, popularity on social media, movie adaptions of their life exist—people are interested in more than them just doing their job.\nA persons job is no reason to suddenly strip them of their humanity and rights granted them for being such, that kind of mentality is morally skewed and why a lot of people would not support sex work. plus you can’t say it makes sense for sex workers to be see as commodities only and then believe sex work will be consensual. the whole consent part comes from recognizing that this is another person who has their own boundaries and limits beyond just what you want.",
">\n\nokay, that’s a plumber and not a person you’re having sex with. unlike plumbing which is clean cut, sex can include multiple aspects of different kinks and fetishes. You can’t expect a sex worker to be okay with say participating in rape play, anal, scat, and a mirage of other kinks simply because they agreed to sex. Sex is not clean cut, there is more to it. There has to be a boundary somewhere, this is another person body not a pipe.",
">\n\nThat’s like the point? recognizing the boundary and proceeding from there by RESPECTING the boundary because they are another person and not some masturbatory object. What you just said was a consensual interaction. The initial point was that there is no consensual sex without respecting the party that’s giving as a person.",
">\n\nSo... there's a concept of a moral hazard. \nThere's literally no way for an individual to be certain that their prostitute is not being coerced/trafficked. Even if there are some special circumstances where it might be unlikely, certainty is still impossible, and most people frequenting prostitutes are not in those special circumstances.\nSomeone using their services is therefore extremely likely to be comfortable with risking that they are unknowingly raping someone. \nGenerally speaking, people find that disgusting.",
">\n\nIf you eat chocolate (even the stuff with the fair trade sticker) then there's no guarantee that it hasn't come from slave farms which are not uncommon. If you eat chocolate throughout your life then you are almost definitely contributing to slavery. If you visit a prostitute regularly then the chance they're being exploited is anywhere from functioninally 0% to 100%. So why treat the John who might be discerning with scorn and not the chocolate eater who is a much safer bet in having contributed to coerced labour.",
">\n\nIt's worth trying to avoid those situations, but ultimately it's a very false equivalence to hold people responsible for the actions of others, vs. their own personal actions.\nWhen you buy chocolate, you're not actually holding a gun to a slave, someone else is. The right answer to that is to lobby for worker protections for imported goods, and to try to end involuntary servitude within your country as well. \nWhen you have sex with a trafficked person, you personally literally raped them. If you don't have good evidence to know they aren't trafficked, you're personally ok with the possibility you're going to personally rape them. \nBoth might be considered bad. But it's a false equivalence.\nAnd sure... if someone is paying someone for sex when they are personal friends with them, and interact with them outside of prostitution enough to personally know that they aren't being trafficked... and you're sure they aren't lying, scorning them more than at most some light ribbing isn't justified. It's not like \"sugar daddies\" aren't a thing as well. At the very least much less disapprobation would be appropriate.",
">\n\nIn both cases, there is a customer receiving a service provided by a potentially enslaved person. They are morally equivalent. It makes no sense to say “sure I bought the slavery chocolate, but you can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”",
">\n\n\nyou can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”\n\nThe slavers actions are distinct from the consumers' actions for most things. \nThis is an actual important difference when it comes to prostitution. \nIgnoring that fundamental difference doesn't make it go away, and it's entirely reasonable for someone to make that distinction.",
">\n\nThe slaver and consumer are different people who take different actions in the prostitution scenario. The consumer in both scenarios is taking the risk of being immoral. If I force you to be my slave that’s still immoral whether or not I put you to work in my brothel or mine or factory or fishing boat. And if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever, it’s equivalent.",
">\n\n\nAnd if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever , it’s equivalent.\n\nThis is where the false equivalence comes in. \nSomeone making products with slave labor is not renting out a slave to the consumer so that they consumer can force them to perform mining for the consumer. They are enslaving the labor to create a product, and selling the product. Products don't have rights to violate. The only person violating the rights of the slave is the slaver.\nSomeone trafficking a victim is renting out that victim so that the consumer can rape them.",
">\n\nIf the sex is only contractual to you? Why not just \"hook up.\" Why pay? You will never be able to guarantee they are not being trafficked. If they are, they are not going to tell you. I think the idea of money exchanging hands for sex is the why most have a problem. The idea that you are giving a woman money for sex has been historically seen as her being a whore. \nI am not saying she is. I am saying that from the time it first exchanged hands, that is what it was. Men who could not find a woman, paid a woman. Why do you want others to see it differently? Yes, there will be outliers that will enjoy the work. But those are going to be ones that, like the escort, chose it, and charge what they want. Not the typical street hookers on the corner with pimps to pay. \nProve they are not trafficked, they work for themselves, they are clean (of both drugs and diseases - because they are taking care of themselves and being safe), and that they are a sex worker because they enjoy the work or that that chose the work. Then, hey! Pay 'em and get to it!",
">\n\nI think it is morally unhealthy to normalize it. Even though you have to be an adult to smoke weed, we definitely see weed as a normal thing to do in moderation compared to a few decades ago. This is how we would see prostitution if it was normalized. And I think weed has a lot less complications than legalizing prostitution. A LOT!\nSex work online is a lot safer and requires a lot less mental issues to engage in and promote. But even then, I know some sex workers (online type), and they are scarred by the stuff they have seen when it comes to their job. They have told me stories that are extremely disturbing. These are women who just do stuff by themselves. Not working with a porn company and other people.\nAlso, sex has a huge reputation for being violent and demoralizing towards women in general. I'd assume those numbers would be much higher in men looking to pay for sex. You'd have to have extremely strict and tight regulations for this sort of thing, which would take the fun out of it for a lot of people. And even then, there would still be many mistakes that would happen before we find out all the regulations that are needed. And I don't think we could ever make it mentally and physically safe for women.\nNow, do I think it should be decriminalized for prostitutes? Definitely. I don't see them as disgusting. I feel quite bad for them. Most of them were trafficked at a young age. Do I see men wanting to pay for sex as disgusting? Not necessarily. It depends on the person and the situation. However, this isn't a simple issue where if we just \"stop judging people,\" everything will be fine.",
">\n\nDecriminalizing prostitution for both those selling and buying is demonstrably safer for prostitutes. If it is criminal for the buyer but not the seller, the buyer is often highly defensive and paranoid about the seller, specifically the possibility that they may be working with law enforcement. The buyer will often push to do it in a highly isolated setting as well. These things increase violence that sex workers face, and the averages go down in places where it is decriminalized to both buy and sell. If you have a designated work place for it and no one needs to be distrustful and worried about being arrested, that is the safest situation for all involved. \nWe may disagree with buying it for whatever moral reason, but if we choose to criminalize the purchase of it, we are prioritizing punishing behavior we morally disagree with over prioritizing the safety of those involved, which I can't get behind.",
">\n\nBut there are so many more facets to the safety of legalizing it for the buyer other than them being pushy or wanting to do it in a hidden area. If we legalized it, it still wouldn't really help any of the points I made or is even something that is so overwhelmingly an issue compared to the points I made.",
">\n\nSo long as we have to work to live, all jobs are coercive, even sex work. I’m skeptical that there can ever be a consensual exchange within our current economic context.",
">\n\nExactly , I get sex is intimate but if you are willing to view sex work as any other job , you should be willing to treat it as such",
">\n\nSex work has certain occupational hazards that cannot be regulated away. OSHA (in the US) dictates that a person cannot be subject to bodily fluids without proper PPE in the workplace, and often johns just need to pay more to not wear a condom. Imagine a construction site paying workers more to not wear a hard hat. The greater potential for bodily harm is intrinsic to the work, and it will always be unsafe.",
">\n\nTrue but this doesn't really answer my question",
">\n\nMy point is that treating it like any other job is not ethically possible due to hazardous conditions",
">\n\nThis is a bad take.\nI’d wager prostitution doesn’t even rank in the top ten dangerous jobs by capita.",
">\n\nThat really depends. A gas station cashier likely has a higher risk of being killed. But a quick Google shows sex workers are thirty times more likely to get Aids than the general population. They're also at ridiculously high rates of risk to their mental health. Ptsd is common. Also, yes, sitting at a counter in a gas station is technically dangerous. But it is different type of danger compared to someone fucking them in the ass while shoving a sock in their mouth and calling them a dirty whore. When this happens to a prostitute, since she isn't dead, then all good right?! :) Her job isn't dangerous, she's still alive! And they're really not paid much. Average pay for a sex scene in porn for a woman is around $600, for the guy it's like a hundred. For prostitution you're looking at a hundred to two hundred dollars. \nAlso, if you're in the us. Good luck affording health insurance as an independent contractor engaged in sex work.",
">\n\nI’m not exactly impressed with the American system so if you’re criticising Americans health system then fuck yeah more power to you.\nYou raise fantastic points about there being non lethal dangers in sex work that are worth considering and harder to measure.\nThat being said, sit for a while and think about whether you think that sex workers are in a job so dangerous that it deserves its own category and shouldn’t even be allowed. (This is what the commenter I was responding to was claiming)\nI’m comfortable I’d ban lumberjack as a profession long before I considered banning prostitution based on relative level of danger and conditions.\nI don’t have a specific statistic but soldiers at an educated guess would probably be more likely to experience danger and mental issues but the commenter I responded to probably never thought for one second about banning soldiers on that basis.\nIt’s clear bias, being rationalised as something it isn’t.",
">\n\nIt's decriminalised where I live, which means women can arrange anything themselves. So you can have a strip club with a \"hotel\" above it. Basically 100% of the workers are foreign, from places like Ukraine. Russia, Moldova, Romania. Etc. It's a strange aspect which isn't often brought up. But\"legalizing \" almost always results on foreign workers undercutting any local workforce. How can a 26 year old American girl from the burbs compete with an 18 year Thai girl? One is fine doing work at basically the rates of a full time McDonald's employee, while the other isn't. And of course, that breeds the type of people you'd imagine running the business. Even in places like Amsterdam, where there's tons of regulation, you get the same trafficking you see anywhere else.\nSo morally. I've got zero problem. But I've just never seen a model that can actually ensure safety for everyone involved.",
">\n\nWell culture is everything isn't it? Of there wasn't so much sex tourism from places that have prostitution illegal there would probably be less demand wouldn't there? Less demand would make the whole industry safer imo due to the loss of money driving the search for foreign market girls\nLike imagine the whole world has a brothel just down the block. Does that make it more safe just by sheer volume and normality?",
">\n\nFirstly, i'm not religious, i'm sex-positive and the sex lives of strangers rarely concerns me. I don't think paying for these services makes you a \"bad\" person, nor a \"disgusting\" one.. but for me, it would affect your desirability to me as a partner. To me attraction is a big thing, and i'll be honest, I see it as kind of lame. Not morally corrupt but just ...desperate. \nI would want my partner to be someone that women wanted to have sex with, not the man that they had sex with as a purely profitable transaction. Whilst it's consensual, when you involve money or a benefit other than sex, the line slightly blurs, and I find it becomes icky. \nIt's not even that I think my partner should only have had strictly intimate and personable relations... but the question does spring to mind of \"is sex that has been paid for truly consensual? can you guarantee that?\" Even popular Pornstars who previously agreed to do porn and made careers out of it have stories where they later felt disgusted by what they've had to do but were so enamored by the money, they went through with it. Sex workers will ALWAYS sell a positive image to their clients, part of their job is to make you feel desired, but you never truly know the reality. \nAll in all, it can be seen as \"bad\" or \"disgusting\" because monetary rewards affects the lines of purely consensual sex. The same way it can be icky for a boss to have sex with the intern, the same way directors have sex with actresses that want to star in their movies, and the same way rockstars have sex with their fans. Doesn't make 'em rapists, but it's why people won't look at it as respectable.",
">\n\nyou aren’t sex positive if you think paying for sex is desperate.\ndoes paying for alcohol mean you’re desperate for happiness? some people want to have fun so they buy drinks, others find more fun in sex. as long as sex work is consensual and not the result of pimping or some other form of coercion then I don’t see any harm or how it would be desperate.\nthere are tangible benefits to buying sex vs finding it “naturally” that i don’t think you’re considering. \nwith sex workers you’re safer and don’t have to worry about pregnancy, theft, psychotic women, and other risks that come from random hookups with strangers or even casual dating. there’s also the whole “i don’t need to put time and effort into finding and flirting with someone” when it can be on demand. yea making food at home is usually cheaper and better tasting than takeout but sometimes you’re lazy and want a pizza delivered.",
">\n\nI’m generally sex positive to consensual sex between people. However, everything falls on a spectrum and I don’t think you have to have a certain view on every avenue to be as such. Much like you can love your job, your country or your friends but that doesn’t mean you can’t provide any forms of criticism nor must you love EVERY aspect of these things. \nI have no disdain for people who hook up on dating apps, clubs, attend sex parties etc. I will always believe sex workers should have right to practice and do so in a safe environment. I also wouldn’t stop their client base either, it’s not my business, but there are ethical implications and I’ve said my view from the perspective of my partner which naturally i hold to a more personable standard. I wouldn’t want to be with someone who puts their sexual desires above the possible implications involved in sex work. \nI do want to touch on your point that as long as it’s not coerced or forced, it’s okay. The ethical implication behind this is that when you involve money, this is not guaranteed. Not all clients will take the time to research the background and extra people involved behind the scenes. The women with pimps and who are trafficked won’t spill those beans to you. Again, there will always be exceptions to the rule. \nI understand that sex work is convenient to many but my perception is not swayed by the mere idea that paying for sex means you get to avoid having to flirt with women. Much like I can understand why people have no choice to purchase fast fashion and I’ll understand the reasoning but that does not mean I should ignore the child labour and poor conditions that make this possible. \nAll in all, I won’t stop you but I’m going to think it’s kinda lame. You can wear an item of clothing, I’ll defend you to wear that clothing and I won’t make you feel bad for wearing it.. but I may not like it myself.",
">\n\nReading your posts made me think of a bird preening it's feathers to attract a mate. I thought it was just you being obtuse untill you brought fashion into this lol\nYou really are just a pair of eyes arnt you. No complexity attached. \"I saw it in the window so I bought it! I didn't even care that it was 500$ I just wanted it because the other girls were eyeing it down and I just HAD to have it💅\""
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Not sure about everywhere else but in America being as prostitution is illegal a lot of the situations the workers are in are really sad, depressing and predatory. If you take a look at the book “Pimp” by ice berg slim for example a lot of the industry isn’t the ideal some just wants to make money like any other job and the pimp is just a bodyguard/manger,
A lot of it involves a tone of manipulation and dependency and when you add on the ones where safe sex isn’t a priority and the literal hundreds of partners you engage with in such a short time it all comes off as kinda gross.
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"/u/Due-Lie-8710 (OP) has awarded 7 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nThere's a song I like that speaks on this fairly poetically, so I'd like to start by just directly quoting it:\n\nSo when you bled on the bed as you fed those expectations, as a whore and not a human, you embraced with hesitation the very parameters of all you can be. Not a mother, not an aunt, not a sister who's not subdued. Because dignity's not physical, and your flesh means more than you.\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.",
">\n\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.\n\nFirst of all if you aren't trafficked it is just like another job, as for you both being seen as human , make sense hey aren't there to befriend to have sex , you are performing a service, it's like you watching football or a movie, you only see them as footballers ot actors , half of the time they don't care about their personal life, there are some jobs that prevent you from getting any high paying jobs or jobs that involve care , as for the people purchasing it , if you can't purchase it then why should they sell it , you don't actually support sex work, because that would mean accepting the consumer base ad well as the supplier",
">\n\nThat’s a really big if though, sex work isn’t exactly an industry where you will know for sure if the service you’re getting is consensual. individuals who are victims of sexual trafficking, coercion, or just life circumstance aren’t likely to just tell their “customers” if it isn’t consensual. they could endanger themselves or not be aware that they can say something. \nSeeing someone as an object vs seeing them as an individual with a job aren’t the same though? yes we recognize actors and football players by their career choice and how well they are at it, but they’re still people at the end of the day? that’s why they have fanbases, interviews, paparazzi, popularity on social media, movie adaptions of their life exist—people are interested in more than them just doing their job.\nA persons job is no reason to suddenly strip them of their humanity and rights granted them for being such, that kind of mentality is morally skewed and why a lot of people would not support sex work. plus you can’t say it makes sense for sex workers to be see as commodities only and then believe sex work will be consensual. the whole consent part comes from recognizing that this is another person who has their own boundaries and limits beyond just what you want.",
">\n\nokay, that’s a plumber and not a person you’re having sex with. unlike plumbing which is clean cut, sex can include multiple aspects of different kinks and fetishes. You can’t expect a sex worker to be okay with say participating in rape play, anal, scat, and a mirage of other kinks simply because they agreed to sex. Sex is not clean cut, there is more to it. There has to be a boundary somewhere, this is another person body not a pipe.",
">\n\nThat’s like the point? recognizing the boundary and proceeding from there by RESPECTING the boundary because they are another person and not some masturbatory object. What you just said was a consensual interaction. The initial point was that there is no consensual sex without respecting the party that’s giving as a person.",
">\n\nSo... there's a concept of a moral hazard. \nThere's literally no way for an individual to be certain that their prostitute is not being coerced/trafficked. Even if there are some special circumstances where it might be unlikely, certainty is still impossible, and most people frequenting prostitutes are not in those special circumstances.\nSomeone using their services is therefore extremely likely to be comfortable with risking that they are unknowingly raping someone. \nGenerally speaking, people find that disgusting.",
">\n\nIf you eat chocolate (even the stuff with the fair trade sticker) then there's no guarantee that it hasn't come from slave farms which are not uncommon. If you eat chocolate throughout your life then you are almost definitely contributing to slavery. If you visit a prostitute regularly then the chance they're being exploited is anywhere from functioninally 0% to 100%. So why treat the John who might be discerning with scorn and not the chocolate eater who is a much safer bet in having contributed to coerced labour.",
">\n\nIt's worth trying to avoid those situations, but ultimately it's a very false equivalence to hold people responsible for the actions of others, vs. their own personal actions.\nWhen you buy chocolate, you're not actually holding a gun to a slave, someone else is. The right answer to that is to lobby for worker protections for imported goods, and to try to end involuntary servitude within your country as well. \nWhen you have sex with a trafficked person, you personally literally raped them. If you don't have good evidence to know they aren't trafficked, you're personally ok with the possibility you're going to personally rape them. \nBoth might be considered bad. But it's a false equivalence.\nAnd sure... if someone is paying someone for sex when they are personal friends with them, and interact with them outside of prostitution enough to personally know that they aren't being trafficked... and you're sure they aren't lying, scorning them more than at most some light ribbing isn't justified. It's not like \"sugar daddies\" aren't a thing as well. At the very least much less disapprobation would be appropriate.",
">\n\nIn both cases, there is a customer receiving a service provided by a potentially enslaved person. They are morally equivalent. It makes no sense to say “sure I bought the slavery chocolate, but you can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”",
">\n\n\nyou can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”\n\nThe slavers actions are distinct from the consumers' actions for most things. \nThis is an actual important difference when it comes to prostitution. \nIgnoring that fundamental difference doesn't make it go away, and it's entirely reasonable for someone to make that distinction.",
">\n\nThe slaver and consumer are different people who take different actions in the prostitution scenario. The consumer in both scenarios is taking the risk of being immoral. If I force you to be my slave that’s still immoral whether or not I put you to work in my brothel or mine or factory or fishing boat. And if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever, it’s equivalent.",
">\n\n\nAnd if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever , it’s equivalent.\n\nThis is where the false equivalence comes in. \nSomeone making products with slave labor is not renting out a slave to the consumer so that they consumer can force them to perform mining for the consumer. They are enslaving the labor to create a product, and selling the product. Products don't have rights to violate. The only person violating the rights of the slave is the slaver.\nSomeone trafficking a victim is renting out that victim so that the consumer can rape them.",
">\n\nIf the sex is only contractual to you? Why not just \"hook up.\" Why pay? You will never be able to guarantee they are not being trafficked. If they are, they are not going to tell you. I think the idea of money exchanging hands for sex is the why most have a problem. The idea that you are giving a woman money for sex has been historically seen as her being a whore. \nI am not saying she is. I am saying that from the time it first exchanged hands, that is what it was. Men who could not find a woman, paid a woman. Why do you want others to see it differently? Yes, there will be outliers that will enjoy the work. But those are going to be ones that, like the escort, chose it, and charge what they want. Not the typical street hookers on the corner with pimps to pay. \nProve they are not trafficked, they work for themselves, they are clean (of both drugs and diseases - because they are taking care of themselves and being safe), and that they are a sex worker because they enjoy the work or that that chose the work. Then, hey! Pay 'em and get to it!",
">\n\nI think it is morally unhealthy to normalize it. Even though you have to be an adult to smoke weed, we definitely see weed as a normal thing to do in moderation compared to a few decades ago. This is how we would see prostitution if it was normalized. And I think weed has a lot less complications than legalizing prostitution. A LOT!\nSex work online is a lot safer and requires a lot less mental issues to engage in and promote. But even then, I know some sex workers (online type), and they are scarred by the stuff they have seen when it comes to their job. They have told me stories that are extremely disturbing. These are women who just do stuff by themselves. Not working with a porn company and other people.\nAlso, sex has a huge reputation for being violent and demoralizing towards women in general. I'd assume those numbers would be much higher in men looking to pay for sex. You'd have to have extremely strict and tight regulations for this sort of thing, which would take the fun out of it for a lot of people. And even then, there would still be many mistakes that would happen before we find out all the regulations that are needed. And I don't think we could ever make it mentally and physically safe for women.\nNow, do I think it should be decriminalized for prostitutes? Definitely. I don't see them as disgusting. I feel quite bad for them. Most of them were trafficked at a young age. Do I see men wanting to pay for sex as disgusting? Not necessarily. It depends on the person and the situation. However, this isn't a simple issue where if we just \"stop judging people,\" everything will be fine.",
">\n\nDecriminalizing prostitution for both those selling and buying is demonstrably safer for prostitutes. If it is criminal for the buyer but not the seller, the buyer is often highly defensive and paranoid about the seller, specifically the possibility that they may be working with law enforcement. The buyer will often push to do it in a highly isolated setting as well. These things increase violence that sex workers face, and the averages go down in places where it is decriminalized to both buy and sell. If you have a designated work place for it and no one needs to be distrustful and worried about being arrested, that is the safest situation for all involved. \nWe may disagree with buying it for whatever moral reason, but if we choose to criminalize the purchase of it, we are prioritizing punishing behavior we morally disagree with over prioritizing the safety of those involved, which I can't get behind.",
">\n\nBut there are so many more facets to the safety of legalizing it for the buyer other than them being pushy or wanting to do it in a hidden area. If we legalized it, it still wouldn't really help any of the points I made or is even something that is so overwhelmingly an issue compared to the points I made.",
">\n\nSo long as we have to work to live, all jobs are coercive, even sex work. I’m skeptical that there can ever be a consensual exchange within our current economic context.",
">\n\nExactly , I get sex is intimate but if you are willing to view sex work as any other job , you should be willing to treat it as such",
">\n\nSex work has certain occupational hazards that cannot be regulated away. OSHA (in the US) dictates that a person cannot be subject to bodily fluids without proper PPE in the workplace, and often johns just need to pay more to not wear a condom. Imagine a construction site paying workers more to not wear a hard hat. The greater potential for bodily harm is intrinsic to the work, and it will always be unsafe.",
">\n\nTrue but this doesn't really answer my question",
">\n\nMy point is that treating it like any other job is not ethically possible due to hazardous conditions",
">\n\nThis is a bad take.\nI’d wager prostitution doesn’t even rank in the top ten dangerous jobs by capita.",
">\n\nThat really depends. A gas station cashier likely has a higher risk of being killed. But a quick Google shows sex workers are thirty times more likely to get Aids than the general population. They're also at ridiculously high rates of risk to their mental health. Ptsd is common. Also, yes, sitting at a counter in a gas station is technically dangerous. But it is different type of danger compared to someone fucking them in the ass while shoving a sock in their mouth and calling them a dirty whore. When this happens to a prostitute, since she isn't dead, then all good right?! :) Her job isn't dangerous, she's still alive! And they're really not paid much. Average pay for a sex scene in porn for a woman is around $600, for the guy it's like a hundred. For prostitution you're looking at a hundred to two hundred dollars. \nAlso, if you're in the us. Good luck affording health insurance as an independent contractor engaged in sex work.",
">\n\nI’m not exactly impressed with the American system so if you’re criticising Americans health system then fuck yeah more power to you.\nYou raise fantastic points about there being non lethal dangers in sex work that are worth considering and harder to measure.\nThat being said, sit for a while and think about whether you think that sex workers are in a job so dangerous that it deserves its own category and shouldn’t even be allowed. (This is what the commenter I was responding to was claiming)\nI’m comfortable I’d ban lumberjack as a profession long before I considered banning prostitution based on relative level of danger and conditions.\nI don’t have a specific statistic but soldiers at an educated guess would probably be more likely to experience danger and mental issues but the commenter I responded to probably never thought for one second about banning soldiers on that basis.\nIt’s clear bias, being rationalised as something it isn’t.",
">\n\nIt's decriminalised where I live, which means women can arrange anything themselves. So you can have a strip club with a \"hotel\" above it. Basically 100% of the workers are foreign, from places like Ukraine. Russia, Moldova, Romania. Etc. It's a strange aspect which isn't often brought up. But\"legalizing \" almost always results on foreign workers undercutting any local workforce. How can a 26 year old American girl from the burbs compete with an 18 year Thai girl? One is fine doing work at basically the rates of a full time McDonald's employee, while the other isn't. And of course, that breeds the type of people you'd imagine running the business. Even in places like Amsterdam, where there's tons of regulation, you get the same trafficking you see anywhere else.\nSo morally. I've got zero problem. But I've just never seen a model that can actually ensure safety for everyone involved.",
">\n\nWell culture is everything isn't it? Of there wasn't so much sex tourism from places that have prostitution illegal there would probably be less demand wouldn't there? Less demand would make the whole industry safer imo due to the loss of money driving the search for foreign market girls\nLike imagine the whole world has a brothel just down the block. Does that make it more safe just by sheer volume and normality?",
">\n\nFirstly, i'm not religious, i'm sex-positive and the sex lives of strangers rarely concerns me. I don't think paying for these services makes you a \"bad\" person, nor a \"disgusting\" one.. but for me, it would affect your desirability to me as a partner. To me attraction is a big thing, and i'll be honest, I see it as kind of lame. Not morally corrupt but just ...desperate. \nI would want my partner to be someone that women wanted to have sex with, not the man that they had sex with as a purely profitable transaction. Whilst it's consensual, when you involve money or a benefit other than sex, the line slightly blurs, and I find it becomes icky. \nIt's not even that I think my partner should only have had strictly intimate and personable relations... but the question does spring to mind of \"is sex that has been paid for truly consensual? can you guarantee that?\" Even popular Pornstars who previously agreed to do porn and made careers out of it have stories where they later felt disgusted by what they've had to do but were so enamored by the money, they went through with it. Sex workers will ALWAYS sell a positive image to their clients, part of their job is to make you feel desired, but you never truly know the reality. \nAll in all, it can be seen as \"bad\" or \"disgusting\" because monetary rewards affects the lines of purely consensual sex. The same way it can be icky for a boss to have sex with the intern, the same way directors have sex with actresses that want to star in their movies, and the same way rockstars have sex with their fans. Doesn't make 'em rapists, but it's why people won't look at it as respectable.",
">\n\nyou aren’t sex positive if you think paying for sex is desperate.\ndoes paying for alcohol mean you’re desperate for happiness? some people want to have fun so they buy drinks, others find more fun in sex. as long as sex work is consensual and not the result of pimping or some other form of coercion then I don’t see any harm or how it would be desperate.\nthere are tangible benefits to buying sex vs finding it “naturally” that i don’t think you’re considering. \nwith sex workers you’re safer and don’t have to worry about pregnancy, theft, psychotic women, and other risks that come from random hookups with strangers or even casual dating. there’s also the whole “i don’t need to put time and effort into finding and flirting with someone” when it can be on demand. yea making food at home is usually cheaper and better tasting than takeout but sometimes you’re lazy and want a pizza delivered.",
">\n\nI’m generally sex positive to consensual sex between people. However, everything falls on a spectrum and I don’t think you have to have a certain view on every avenue to be as such. Much like you can love your job, your country or your friends but that doesn’t mean you can’t provide any forms of criticism nor must you love EVERY aspect of these things. \nI have no disdain for people who hook up on dating apps, clubs, attend sex parties etc. I will always believe sex workers should have right to practice and do so in a safe environment. I also wouldn’t stop their client base either, it’s not my business, but there are ethical implications and I’ve said my view from the perspective of my partner which naturally i hold to a more personable standard. I wouldn’t want to be with someone who puts their sexual desires above the possible implications involved in sex work. \nI do want to touch on your point that as long as it’s not coerced or forced, it’s okay. The ethical implication behind this is that when you involve money, this is not guaranteed. Not all clients will take the time to research the background and extra people involved behind the scenes. The women with pimps and who are trafficked won’t spill those beans to you. Again, there will always be exceptions to the rule. \nI understand that sex work is convenient to many but my perception is not swayed by the mere idea that paying for sex means you get to avoid having to flirt with women. Much like I can understand why people have no choice to purchase fast fashion and I’ll understand the reasoning but that does not mean I should ignore the child labour and poor conditions that make this possible. \nAll in all, I won’t stop you but I’m going to think it’s kinda lame. You can wear an item of clothing, I’ll defend you to wear that clothing and I won’t make you feel bad for wearing it.. but I may not like it myself.",
">\n\nReading your posts made me think of a bird preening it's feathers to attract a mate. I thought it was just you being obtuse untill you brought fashion into this lol\nYou really are just a pair of eyes arnt you. No complexity attached. \"I saw it in the window so I bought it! I didn't even care that it was 500$ I just wanted it because the other girls were eyeing it down and I just HAD to have it💅\"",
">\n\nI genuinely have no idea what you’re trying to convey. The topic of fashion was merely to represent that there are often complexities and nuance. So yes, I can be sex positive but I don’t necessarily have to agree with all the variances within the to topic of sex. \nI assume I’ve hit a nerve for your style of response."
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Sex, when a service, is not the same as any other service. There is a difference between driving a person somewhere in a taxi and having your face fucked and ejaculated on by a stranger. As many have stated before and as you can see in 99% of porn is that sex as a service is usually degrading towards women. Just look at the front page of any given porn site. Most of it is not, in any way, esteeming of the women participating. Look at goddamn blowjob videos. The women are not giving a blowjob - they are getting their face fucked. Extra points if they have to gag and be obviously physically uncomfortable and struggling to breathe. Dude it is just not the same as someone operating a forklift or making flower arrangements. Most of it is degrading and the more degrading the more klicks - the more people who frequent porn sites like it. And it's the same with prostitution. Read about what these women have experienced. It is plain awful. Sure if you are talking about a utopia where you can be 100% sure the prostitutes are there on their own terms and if every single customer is a loving, caring, gentle person taking care of the sex workers needs as much as their own - then yes, there would not be anything wrong with it. But that is just not how it is.
How hard is it, even in a healthy loving relationship, to always have both partners perfectly satisfied and met their needs sexually?
Sex is as intimate as human interaction can get and buying that from someone is taking all incentive away to treat the other person as good as you would treat a partner who you love and/or actively want to enjoy the time with you.
And that is what disgusts people about people who frequent prostitutes. The possibility of being a person who, as long as they pay for something or feel like they've done their dues, doesn't give a shit about what the person on the other end is experiencing.
edit: Because of other comments from OP I accused them of debating rather than discussing and suggested if they were seeking moral validation for what they do, which in itself was not part of a discussion really. I deleted that part because it serves no neutral purpose.
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"/u/Due-Lie-8710 (OP) has awarded 7 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nThere's a song I like that speaks on this fairly poetically, so I'd like to start by just directly quoting it:\n\nSo when you bled on the bed as you fed those expectations, as a whore and not a human, you embraced with hesitation the very parameters of all you can be. Not a mother, not an aunt, not a sister who's not subdued. Because dignity's not physical, and your flesh means more than you.\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.",
">\n\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.\n\nFirst of all if you aren't trafficked it is just like another job, as for you both being seen as human , make sense hey aren't there to befriend to have sex , you are performing a service, it's like you watching football or a movie, you only see them as footballers ot actors , half of the time they don't care about their personal life, there are some jobs that prevent you from getting any high paying jobs or jobs that involve care , as for the people purchasing it , if you can't purchase it then why should they sell it , you don't actually support sex work, because that would mean accepting the consumer base ad well as the supplier",
">\n\nThat’s a really big if though, sex work isn’t exactly an industry where you will know for sure if the service you’re getting is consensual. individuals who are victims of sexual trafficking, coercion, or just life circumstance aren’t likely to just tell their “customers” if it isn’t consensual. they could endanger themselves or not be aware that they can say something. \nSeeing someone as an object vs seeing them as an individual with a job aren’t the same though? yes we recognize actors and football players by their career choice and how well they are at it, but they’re still people at the end of the day? that’s why they have fanbases, interviews, paparazzi, popularity on social media, movie adaptions of their life exist—people are interested in more than them just doing their job.\nA persons job is no reason to suddenly strip them of their humanity and rights granted them for being such, that kind of mentality is morally skewed and why a lot of people would not support sex work. plus you can’t say it makes sense for sex workers to be see as commodities only and then believe sex work will be consensual. the whole consent part comes from recognizing that this is another person who has their own boundaries and limits beyond just what you want.",
">\n\nokay, that’s a plumber and not a person you’re having sex with. unlike plumbing which is clean cut, sex can include multiple aspects of different kinks and fetishes. You can’t expect a sex worker to be okay with say participating in rape play, anal, scat, and a mirage of other kinks simply because they agreed to sex. Sex is not clean cut, there is more to it. There has to be a boundary somewhere, this is another person body not a pipe.",
">\n\nThat’s like the point? recognizing the boundary and proceeding from there by RESPECTING the boundary because they are another person and not some masturbatory object. What you just said was a consensual interaction. The initial point was that there is no consensual sex without respecting the party that’s giving as a person.",
">\n\nSo... there's a concept of a moral hazard. \nThere's literally no way for an individual to be certain that their prostitute is not being coerced/trafficked. Even if there are some special circumstances where it might be unlikely, certainty is still impossible, and most people frequenting prostitutes are not in those special circumstances.\nSomeone using their services is therefore extremely likely to be comfortable with risking that they are unknowingly raping someone. \nGenerally speaking, people find that disgusting.",
">\n\nIf you eat chocolate (even the stuff with the fair trade sticker) then there's no guarantee that it hasn't come from slave farms which are not uncommon. If you eat chocolate throughout your life then you are almost definitely contributing to slavery. If you visit a prostitute regularly then the chance they're being exploited is anywhere from functioninally 0% to 100%. So why treat the John who might be discerning with scorn and not the chocolate eater who is a much safer bet in having contributed to coerced labour.",
">\n\nIt's worth trying to avoid those situations, but ultimately it's a very false equivalence to hold people responsible for the actions of others, vs. their own personal actions.\nWhen you buy chocolate, you're not actually holding a gun to a slave, someone else is. The right answer to that is to lobby for worker protections for imported goods, and to try to end involuntary servitude within your country as well. \nWhen you have sex with a trafficked person, you personally literally raped them. If you don't have good evidence to know they aren't trafficked, you're personally ok with the possibility you're going to personally rape them. \nBoth might be considered bad. But it's a false equivalence.\nAnd sure... if someone is paying someone for sex when they are personal friends with them, and interact with them outside of prostitution enough to personally know that they aren't being trafficked... and you're sure they aren't lying, scorning them more than at most some light ribbing isn't justified. It's not like \"sugar daddies\" aren't a thing as well. At the very least much less disapprobation would be appropriate.",
">\n\nIn both cases, there is a customer receiving a service provided by a potentially enslaved person. They are morally equivalent. It makes no sense to say “sure I bought the slavery chocolate, but you can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”",
">\n\n\nyou can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”\n\nThe slavers actions are distinct from the consumers' actions for most things. \nThis is an actual important difference when it comes to prostitution. \nIgnoring that fundamental difference doesn't make it go away, and it's entirely reasonable for someone to make that distinction.",
">\n\nThe slaver and consumer are different people who take different actions in the prostitution scenario. The consumer in both scenarios is taking the risk of being immoral. If I force you to be my slave that’s still immoral whether or not I put you to work in my brothel or mine or factory or fishing boat. And if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever, it’s equivalent.",
">\n\n\nAnd if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever , it’s equivalent.\n\nThis is where the false equivalence comes in. \nSomeone making products with slave labor is not renting out a slave to the consumer so that they consumer can force them to perform mining for the consumer. They are enslaving the labor to create a product, and selling the product. Products don't have rights to violate. The only person violating the rights of the slave is the slaver.\nSomeone trafficking a victim is renting out that victim so that the consumer can rape them.",
">\n\nIf the sex is only contractual to you? Why not just \"hook up.\" Why pay? You will never be able to guarantee they are not being trafficked. If they are, they are not going to tell you. I think the idea of money exchanging hands for sex is the why most have a problem. The idea that you are giving a woman money for sex has been historically seen as her being a whore. \nI am not saying she is. I am saying that from the time it first exchanged hands, that is what it was. Men who could not find a woman, paid a woman. Why do you want others to see it differently? Yes, there will be outliers that will enjoy the work. But those are going to be ones that, like the escort, chose it, and charge what they want. Not the typical street hookers on the corner with pimps to pay. \nProve they are not trafficked, they work for themselves, they are clean (of both drugs and diseases - because they are taking care of themselves and being safe), and that they are a sex worker because they enjoy the work or that that chose the work. Then, hey! Pay 'em and get to it!",
">\n\nI think it is morally unhealthy to normalize it. Even though you have to be an adult to smoke weed, we definitely see weed as a normal thing to do in moderation compared to a few decades ago. This is how we would see prostitution if it was normalized. And I think weed has a lot less complications than legalizing prostitution. A LOT!\nSex work online is a lot safer and requires a lot less mental issues to engage in and promote. But even then, I know some sex workers (online type), and they are scarred by the stuff they have seen when it comes to their job. They have told me stories that are extremely disturbing. These are women who just do stuff by themselves. Not working with a porn company and other people.\nAlso, sex has a huge reputation for being violent and demoralizing towards women in general. I'd assume those numbers would be much higher in men looking to pay for sex. You'd have to have extremely strict and tight regulations for this sort of thing, which would take the fun out of it for a lot of people. And even then, there would still be many mistakes that would happen before we find out all the regulations that are needed. And I don't think we could ever make it mentally and physically safe for women.\nNow, do I think it should be decriminalized for prostitutes? Definitely. I don't see them as disgusting. I feel quite bad for them. Most of them were trafficked at a young age. Do I see men wanting to pay for sex as disgusting? Not necessarily. It depends on the person and the situation. However, this isn't a simple issue where if we just \"stop judging people,\" everything will be fine.",
">\n\nDecriminalizing prostitution for both those selling and buying is demonstrably safer for prostitutes. If it is criminal for the buyer but not the seller, the buyer is often highly defensive and paranoid about the seller, specifically the possibility that they may be working with law enforcement. The buyer will often push to do it in a highly isolated setting as well. These things increase violence that sex workers face, and the averages go down in places where it is decriminalized to both buy and sell. If you have a designated work place for it and no one needs to be distrustful and worried about being arrested, that is the safest situation for all involved. \nWe may disagree with buying it for whatever moral reason, but if we choose to criminalize the purchase of it, we are prioritizing punishing behavior we morally disagree with over prioritizing the safety of those involved, which I can't get behind.",
">\n\nBut there are so many more facets to the safety of legalizing it for the buyer other than them being pushy or wanting to do it in a hidden area. If we legalized it, it still wouldn't really help any of the points I made or is even something that is so overwhelmingly an issue compared to the points I made.",
">\n\nSo long as we have to work to live, all jobs are coercive, even sex work. I’m skeptical that there can ever be a consensual exchange within our current economic context.",
">\n\nExactly , I get sex is intimate but if you are willing to view sex work as any other job , you should be willing to treat it as such",
">\n\nSex work has certain occupational hazards that cannot be regulated away. OSHA (in the US) dictates that a person cannot be subject to bodily fluids without proper PPE in the workplace, and often johns just need to pay more to not wear a condom. Imagine a construction site paying workers more to not wear a hard hat. The greater potential for bodily harm is intrinsic to the work, and it will always be unsafe.",
">\n\nTrue but this doesn't really answer my question",
">\n\nMy point is that treating it like any other job is not ethically possible due to hazardous conditions",
">\n\nThis is a bad take.\nI’d wager prostitution doesn’t even rank in the top ten dangerous jobs by capita.",
">\n\nThat really depends. A gas station cashier likely has a higher risk of being killed. But a quick Google shows sex workers are thirty times more likely to get Aids than the general population. They're also at ridiculously high rates of risk to their mental health. Ptsd is common. Also, yes, sitting at a counter in a gas station is technically dangerous. But it is different type of danger compared to someone fucking them in the ass while shoving a sock in their mouth and calling them a dirty whore. When this happens to a prostitute, since she isn't dead, then all good right?! :) Her job isn't dangerous, she's still alive! And they're really not paid much. Average pay for a sex scene in porn for a woman is around $600, for the guy it's like a hundred. For prostitution you're looking at a hundred to two hundred dollars. \nAlso, if you're in the us. Good luck affording health insurance as an independent contractor engaged in sex work.",
">\n\nI’m not exactly impressed with the American system so if you’re criticising Americans health system then fuck yeah more power to you.\nYou raise fantastic points about there being non lethal dangers in sex work that are worth considering and harder to measure.\nThat being said, sit for a while and think about whether you think that sex workers are in a job so dangerous that it deserves its own category and shouldn’t even be allowed. (This is what the commenter I was responding to was claiming)\nI’m comfortable I’d ban lumberjack as a profession long before I considered banning prostitution based on relative level of danger and conditions.\nI don’t have a specific statistic but soldiers at an educated guess would probably be more likely to experience danger and mental issues but the commenter I responded to probably never thought for one second about banning soldiers on that basis.\nIt’s clear bias, being rationalised as something it isn’t.",
">\n\nIt's decriminalised where I live, which means women can arrange anything themselves. So you can have a strip club with a \"hotel\" above it. Basically 100% of the workers are foreign, from places like Ukraine. Russia, Moldova, Romania. Etc. It's a strange aspect which isn't often brought up. But\"legalizing \" almost always results on foreign workers undercutting any local workforce. How can a 26 year old American girl from the burbs compete with an 18 year Thai girl? One is fine doing work at basically the rates of a full time McDonald's employee, while the other isn't. And of course, that breeds the type of people you'd imagine running the business. Even in places like Amsterdam, where there's tons of regulation, you get the same trafficking you see anywhere else.\nSo morally. I've got zero problem. But I've just never seen a model that can actually ensure safety for everyone involved.",
">\n\nWell culture is everything isn't it? Of there wasn't so much sex tourism from places that have prostitution illegal there would probably be less demand wouldn't there? Less demand would make the whole industry safer imo due to the loss of money driving the search for foreign market girls\nLike imagine the whole world has a brothel just down the block. Does that make it more safe just by sheer volume and normality?",
">\n\nFirstly, i'm not religious, i'm sex-positive and the sex lives of strangers rarely concerns me. I don't think paying for these services makes you a \"bad\" person, nor a \"disgusting\" one.. but for me, it would affect your desirability to me as a partner. To me attraction is a big thing, and i'll be honest, I see it as kind of lame. Not morally corrupt but just ...desperate. \nI would want my partner to be someone that women wanted to have sex with, not the man that they had sex with as a purely profitable transaction. Whilst it's consensual, when you involve money or a benefit other than sex, the line slightly blurs, and I find it becomes icky. \nIt's not even that I think my partner should only have had strictly intimate and personable relations... but the question does spring to mind of \"is sex that has been paid for truly consensual? can you guarantee that?\" Even popular Pornstars who previously agreed to do porn and made careers out of it have stories where they later felt disgusted by what they've had to do but were so enamored by the money, they went through with it. Sex workers will ALWAYS sell a positive image to their clients, part of their job is to make you feel desired, but you never truly know the reality. \nAll in all, it can be seen as \"bad\" or \"disgusting\" because monetary rewards affects the lines of purely consensual sex. The same way it can be icky for a boss to have sex with the intern, the same way directors have sex with actresses that want to star in their movies, and the same way rockstars have sex with their fans. Doesn't make 'em rapists, but it's why people won't look at it as respectable.",
">\n\nyou aren’t sex positive if you think paying for sex is desperate.\ndoes paying for alcohol mean you’re desperate for happiness? some people want to have fun so they buy drinks, others find more fun in sex. as long as sex work is consensual and not the result of pimping or some other form of coercion then I don’t see any harm or how it would be desperate.\nthere are tangible benefits to buying sex vs finding it “naturally” that i don’t think you’re considering. \nwith sex workers you’re safer and don’t have to worry about pregnancy, theft, psychotic women, and other risks that come from random hookups with strangers or even casual dating. there’s also the whole “i don’t need to put time and effort into finding and flirting with someone” when it can be on demand. yea making food at home is usually cheaper and better tasting than takeout but sometimes you’re lazy and want a pizza delivered.",
">\n\nI’m generally sex positive to consensual sex between people. However, everything falls on a spectrum and I don’t think you have to have a certain view on every avenue to be as such. Much like you can love your job, your country or your friends but that doesn’t mean you can’t provide any forms of criticism nor must you love EVERY aspect of these things. \nI have no disdain for people who hook up on dating apps, clubs, attend sex parties etc. I will always believe sex workers should have right to practice and do so in a safe environment. I also wouldn’t stop their client base either, it’s not my business, but there are ethical implications and I’ve said my view from the perspective of my partner which naturally i hold to a more personable standard. I wouldn’t want to be with someone who puts their sexual desires above the possible implications involved in sex work. \nI do want to touch on your point that as long as it’s not coerced or forced, it’s okay. The ethical implication behind this is that when you involve money, this is not guaranteed. Not all clients will take the time to research the background and extra people involved behind the scenes. The women with pimps and who are trafficked won’t spill those beans to you. Again, there will always be exceptions to the rule. \nI understand that sex work is convenient to many but my perception is not swayed by the mere idea that paying for sex means you get to avoid having to flirt with women. Much like I can understand why people have no choice to purchase fast fashion and I’ll understand the reasoning but that does not mean I should ignore the child labour and poor conditions that make this possible. \nAll in all, I won’t stop you but I’m going to think it’s kinda lame. You can wear an item of clothing, I’ll defend you to wear that clothing and I won’t make you feel bad for wearing it.. but I may not like it myself.",
">\n\nReading your posts made me think of a bird preening it's feathers to attract a mate. I thought it was just you being obtuse untill you brought fashion into this lol\nYou really are just a pair of eyes arnt you. No complexity attached. \"I saw it in the window so I bought it! I didn't even care that it was 500$ I just wanted it because the other girls were eyeing it down and I just HAD to have it💅\"",
">\n\nI genuinely have no idea what you’re trying to convey. The topic of fashion was merely to represent that there are often complexities and nuance. So yes, I can be sex positive but I don’t necessarily have to agree with all the variances within the to topic of sex. \nI assume I’ve hit a nerve for your style of response.",
">\n\nNot sure about everywhere else but in America being as prostitution is illegal a lot of the situations the workers are in are really sad, depressing and predatory. If you take a look at the book “Pimp” by ice berg slim for example a lot of the industry isn’t the ideal some just wants to make money like any other job and the pimp is just a bodyguard/manger,\nA lot of it involves a tone of manipulation and dependency and when you add on the ones where safe sex isn’t a priority and the literal hundreds of partners you engage with in such a short time it all comes off as kinda gross."
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Well in this context not special but very very different, in the way that it is way more intimate, there's actually a part of ones body entering the others. There is exchange of bodily fluids. Those services are different from each other the same way as a massage is different to shoving items across a scanner, just times ten. One is naked, one experiences pleasure (or great pain) and one is not using their body to do something, they are having their body be used by someone else. That can leave physical bruises and mental scars because one is extremely vulnerable in the act.
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"/u/Due-Lie-8710 (OP) has awarded 7 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nThere's a song I like that speaks on this fairly poetically, so I'd like to start by just directly quoting it:\n\nSo when you bled on the bed as you fed those expectations, as a whore and not a human, you embraced with hesitation the very parameters of all you can be. Not a mother, not an aunt, not a sister who's not subdued. Because dignity's not physical, and your flesh means more than you.\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.",
">\n\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.\n\nFirst of all if you aren't trafficked it is just like another job, as for you both being seen as human , make sense hey aren't there to befriend to have sex , you are performing a service, it's like you watching football or a movie, you only see them as footballers ot actors , half of the time they don't care about their personal life, there are some jobs that prevent you from getting any high paying jobs or jobs that involve care , as for the people purchasing it , if you can't purchase it then why should they sell it , you don't actually support sex work, because that would mean accepting the consumer base ad well as the supplier",
">\n\nThat’s a really big if though, sex work isn’t exactly an industry where you will know for sure if the service you’re getting is consensual. individuals who are victims of sexual trafficking, coercion, or just life circumstance aren’t likely to just tell their “customers” if it isn’t consensual. they could endanger themselves or not be aware that they can say something. \nSeeing someone as an object vs seeing them as an individual with a job aren’t the same though? yes we recognize actors and football players by their career choice and how well they are at it, but they’re still people at the end of the day? that’s why they have fanbases, interviews, paparazzi, popularity on social media, movie adaptions of their life exist—people are interested in more than them just doing their job.\nA persons job is no reason to suddenly strip them of their humanity and rights granted them for being such, that kind of mentality is morally skewed and why a lot of people would not support sex work. plus you can’t say it makes sense for sex workers to be see as commodities only and then believe sex work will be consensual. the whole consent part comes from recognizing that this is another person who has their own boundaries and limits beyond just what you want.",
">\n\nokay, that’s a plumber and not a person you’re having sex with. unlike plumbing which is clean cut, sex can include multiple aspects of different kinks and fetishes. You can’t expect a sex worker to be okay with say participating in rape play, anal, scat, and a mirage of other kinks simply because they agreed to sex. Sex is not clean cut, there is more to it. There has to be a boundary somewhere, this is another person body not a pipe.",
">\n\nThat’s like the point? recognizing the boundary and proceeding from there by RESPECTING the boundary because they are another person and not some masturbatory object. What you just said was a consensual interaction. The initial point was that there is no consensual sex without respecting the party that’s giving as a person.",
">\n\nSo... there's a concept of a moral hazard. \nThere's literally no way for an individual to be certain that their prostitute is not being coerced/trafficked. Even if there are some special circumstances where it might be unlikely, certainty is still impossible, and most people frequenting prostitutes are not in those special circumstances.\nSomeone using their services is therefore extremely likely to be comfortable with risking that they are unknowingly raping someone. \nGenerally speaking, people find that disgusting.",
">\n\nIf you eat chocolate (even the stuff with the fair trade sticker) then there's no guarantee that it hasn't come from slave farms which are not uncommon. If you eat chocolate throughout your life then you are almost definitely contributing to slavery. If you visit a prostitute regularly then the chance they're being exploited is anywhere from functioninally 0% to 100%. So why treat the John who might be discerning with scorn and not the chocolate eater who is a much safer bet in having contributed to coerced labour.",
">\n\nIt's worth trying to avoid those situations, but ultimately it's a very false equivalence to hold people responsible for the actions of others, vs. their own personal actions.\nWhen you buy chocolate, you're not actually holding a gun to a slave, someone else is. The right answer to that is to lobby for worker protections for imported goods, and to try to end involuntary servitude within your country as well. \nWhen you have sex with a trafficked person, you personally literally raped them. If you don't have good evidence to know they aren't trafficked, you're personally ok with the possibility you're going to personally rape them. \nBoth might be considered bad. But it's a false equivalence.\nAnd sure... if someone is paying someone for sex when they are personal friends with them, and interact with them outside of prostitution enough to personally know that they aren't being trafficked... and you're sure they aren't lying, scorning them more than at most some light ribbing isn't justified. It's not like \"sugar daddies\" aren't a thing as well. At the very least much less disapprobation would be appropriate.",
">\n\nIn both cases, there is a customer receiving a service provided by a potentially enslaved person. They are morally equivalent. It makes no sense to say “sure I bought the slavery chocolate, but you can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”",
">\n\n\nyou can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”\n\nThe slavers actions are distinct from the consumers' actions for most things. \nThis is an actual important difference when it comes to prostitution. \nIgnoring that fundamental difference doesn't make it go away, and it's entirely reasonable for someone to make that distinction.",
">\n\nThe slaver and consumer are different people who take different actions in the prostitution scenario. The consumer in both scenarios is taking the risk of being immoral. If I force you to be my slave that’s still immoral whether or not I put you to work in my brothel or mine or factory or fishing boat. And if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever, it’s equivalent.",
">\n\n\nAnd if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever , it’s equivalent.\n\nThis is where the false equivalence comes in. \nSomeone making products with slave labor is not renting out a slave to the consumer so that they consumer can force them to perform mining for the consumer. They are enslaving the labor to create a product, and selling the product. Products don't have rights to violate. The only person violating the rights of the slave is the slaver.\nSomeone trafficking a victim is renting out that victim so that the consumer can rape them.",
">\n\nIf the sex is only contractual to you? Why not just \"hook up.\" Why pay? You will never be able to guarantee they are not being trafficked. If they are, they are not going to tell you. I think the idea of money exchanging hands for sex is the why most have a problem. The idea that you are giving a woman money for sex has been historically seen as her being a whore. \nI am not saying she is. I am saying that from the time it first exchanged hands, that is what it was. Men who could not find a woman, paid a woman. Why do you want others to see it differently? Yes, there will be outliers that will enjoy the work. But those are going to be ones that, like the escort, chose it, and charge what they want. Not the typical street hookers on the corner with pimps to pay. \nProve they are not trafficked, they work for themselves, they are clean (of both drugs and diseases - because they are taking care of themselves and being safe), and that they are a sex worker because they enjoy the work or that that chose the work. Then, hey! Pay 'em and get to it!",
">\n\nI think it is morally unhealthy to normalize it. Even though you have to be an adult to smoke weed, we definitely see weed as a normal thing to do in moderation compared to a few decades ago. This is how we would see prostitution if it was normalized. And I think weed has a lot less complications than legalizing prostitution. A LOT!\nSex work online is a lot safer and requires a lot less mental issues to engage in and promote. But even then, I know some sex workers (online type), and they are scarred by the stuff they have seen when it comes to their job. They have told me stories that are extremely disturbing. These are women who just do stuff by themselves. Not working with a porn company and other people.\nAlso, sex has a huge reputation for being violent and demoralizing towards women in general. I'd assume those numbers would be much higher in men looking to pay for sex. You'd have to have extremely strict and tight regulations for this sort of thing, which would take the fun out of it for a lot of people. And even then, there would still be many mistakes that would happen before we find out all the regulations that are needed. And I don't think we could ever make it mentally and physically safe for women.\nNow, do I think it should be decriminalized for prostitutes? Definitely. I don't see them as disgusting. I feel quite bad for them. Most of them were trafficked at a young age. Do I see men wanting to pay for sex as disgusting? Not necessarily. It depends on the person and the situation. However, this isn't a simple issue where if we just \"stop judging people,\" everything will be fine.",
">\n\nDecriminalizing prostitution for both those selling and buying is demonstrably safer for prostitutes. If it is criminal for the buyer but not the seller, the buyer is often highly defensive and paranoid about the seller, specifically the possibility that they may be working with law enforcement. The buyer will often push to do it in a highly isolated setting as well. These things increase violence that sex workers face, and the averages go down in places where it is decriminalized to both buy and sell. If you have a designated work place for it and no one needs to be distrustful and worried about being arrested, that is the safest situation for all involved. \nWe may disagree with buying it for whatever moral reason, but if we choose to criminalize the purchase of it, we are prioritizing punishing behavior we morally disagree with over prioritizing the safety of those involved, which I can't get behind.",
">\n\nBut there are so many more facets to the safety of legalizing it for the buyer other than them being pushy or wanting to do it in a hidden area. If we legalized it, it still wouldn't really help any of the points I made or is even something that is so overwhelmingly an issue compared to the points I made.",
">\n\nSo long as we have to work to live, all jobs are coercive, even sex work. I’m skeptical that there can ever be a consensual exchange within our current economic context.",
">\n\nExactly , I get sex is intimate but if you are willing to view sex work as any other job , you should be willing to treat it as such",
">\n\nSex work has certain occupational hazards that cannot be regulated away. OSHA (in the US) dictates that a person cannot be subject to bodily fluids without proper PPE in the workplace, and often johns just need to pay more to not wear a condom. Imagine a construction site paying workers more to not wear a hard hat. The greater potential for bodily harm is intrinsic to the work, and it will always be unsafe.",
">\n\nTrue but this doesn't really answer my question",
">\n\nMy point is that treating it like any other job is not ethically possible due to hazardous conditions",
">\n\nThis is a bad take.\nI’d wager prostitution doesn’t even rank in the top ten dangerous jobs by capita.",
">\n\nThat really depends. A gas station cashier likely has a higher risk of being killed. But a quick Google shows sex workers are thirty times more likely to get Aids than the general population. They're also at ridiculously high rates of risk to their mental health. Ptsd is common. Also, yes, sitting at a counter in a gas station is technically dangerous. But it is different type of danger compared to someone fucking them in the ass while shoving a sock in their mouth and calling them a dirty whore. When this happens to a prostitute, since she isn't dead, then all good right?! :) Her job isn't dangerous, she's still alive! And they're really not paid much. Average pay for a sex scene in porn for a woman is around $600, for the guy it's like a hundred. For prostitution you're looking at a hundred to two hundred dollars. \nAlso, if you're in the us. Good luck affording health insurance as an independent contractor engaged in sex work.",
">\n\nI’m not exactly impressed with the American system so if you’re criticising Americans health system then fuck yeah more power to you.\nYou raise fantastic points about there being non lethal dangers in sex work that are worth considering and harder to measure.\nThat being said, sit for a while and think about whether you think that sex workers are in a job so dangerous that it deserves its own category and shouldn’t even be allowed. (This is what the commenter I was responding to was claiming)\nI’m comfortable I’d ban lumberjack as a profession long before I considered banning prostitution based on relative level of danger and conditions.\nI don’t have a specific statistic but soldiers at an educated guess would probably be more likely to experience danger and mental issues but the commenter I responded to probably never thought for one second about banning soldiers on that basis.\nIt’s clear bias, being rationalised as something it isn’t.",
">\n\nIt's decriminalised where I live, which means women can arrange anything themselves. So you can have a strip club with a \"hotel\" above it. Basically 100% of the workers are foreign, from places like Ukraine. Russia, Moldova, Romania. Etc. It's a strange aspect which isn't often brought up. But\"legalizing \" almost always results on foreign workers undercutting any local workforce. How can a 26 year old American girl from the burbs compete with an 18 year Thai girl? One is fine doing work at basically the rates of a full time McDonald's employee, while the other isn't. And of course, that breeds the type of people you'd imagine running the business. Even in places like Amsterdam, where there's tons of regulation, you get the same trafficking you see anywhere else.\nSo morally. I've got zero problem. But I've just never seen a model that can actually ensure safety for everyone involved.",
">\n\nWell culture is everything isn't it? Of there wasn't so much sex tourism from places that have prostitution illegal there would probably be less demand wouldn't there? Less demand would make the whole industry safer imo due to the loss of money driving the search for foreign market girls\nLike imagine the whole world has a brothel just down the block. Does that make it more safe just by sheer volume and normality?",
">\n\nFirstly, i'm not religious, i'm sex-positive and the sex lives of strangers rarely concerns me. I don't think paying for these services makes you a \"bad\" person, nor a \"disgusting\" one.. but for me, it would affect your desirability to me as a partner. To me attraction is a big thing, and i'll be honest, I see it as kind of lame. Not morally corrupt but just ...desperate. \nI would want my partner to be someone that women wanted to have sex with, not the man that they had sex with as a purely profitable transaction. Whilst it's consensual, when you involve money or a benefit other than sex, the line slightly blurs, and I find it becomes icky. \nIt's not even that I think my partner should only have had strictly intimate and personable relations... but the question does spring to mind of \"is sex that has been paid for truly consensual? can you guarantee that?\" Even popular Pornstars who previously agreed to do porn and made careers out of it have stories where they later felt disgusted by what they've had to do but were so enamored by the money, they went through with it. Sex workers will ALWAYS sell a positive image to their clients, part of their job is to make you feel desired, but you never truly know the reality. \nAll in all, it can be seen as \"bad\" or \"disgusting\" because monetary rewards affects the lines of purely consensual sex. The same way it can be icky for a boss to have sex with the intern, the same way directors have sex with actresses that want to star in their movies, and the same way rockstars have sex with their fans. Doesn't make 'em rapists, but it's why people won't look at it as respectable.",
">\n\nyou aren’t sex positive if you think paying for sex is desperate.\ndoes paying for alcohol mean you’re desperate for happiness? some people want to have fun so they buy drinks, others find more fun in sex. as long as sex work is consensual and not the result of pimping or some other form of coercion then I don’t see any harm or how it would be desperate.\nthere are tangible benefits to buying sex vs finding it “naturally” that i don’t think you’re considering. \nwith sex workers you’re safer and don’t have to worry about pregnancy, theft, psychotic women, and other risks that come from random hookups with strangers or even casual dating. there’s also the whole “i don’t need to put time and effort into finding and flirting with someone” when it can be on demand. yea making food at home is usually cheaper and better tasting than takeout but sometimes you’re lazy and want a pizza delivered.",
">\n\nI’m generally sex positive to consensual sex between people. However, everything falls on a spectrum and I don’t think you have to have a certain view on every avenue to be as such. Much like you can love your job, your country or your friends but that doesn’t mean you can’t provide any forms of criticism nor must you love EVERY aspect of these things. \nI have no disdain for people who hook up on dating apps, clubs, attend sex parties etc. I will always believe sex workers should have right to practice and do so in a safe environment. I also wouldn’t stop their client base either, it’s not my business, but there are ethical implications and I’ve said my view from the perspective of my partner which naturally i hold to a more personable standard. I wouldn’t want to be with someone who puts their sexual desires above the possible implications involved in sex work. \nI do want to touch on your point that as long as it’s not coerced or forced, it’s okay. The ethical implication behind this is that when you involve money, this is not guaranteed. Not all clients will take the time to research the background and extra people involved behind the scenes. The women with pimps and who are trafficked won’t spill those beans to you. Again, there will always be exceptions to the rule. \nI understand that sex work is convenient to many but my perception is not swayed by the mere idea that paying for sex means you get to avoid having to flirt with women. Much like I can understand why people have no choice to purchase fast fashion and I’ll understand the reasoning but that does not mean I should ignore the child labour and poor conditions that make this possible. \nAll in all, I won’t stop you but I’m going to think it’s kinda lame. You can wear an item of clothing, I’ll defend you to wear that clothing and I won’t make you feel bad for wearing it.. but I may not like it myself.",
">\n\nReading your posts made me think of a bird preening it's feathers to attract a mate. I thought it was just you being obtuse untill you brought fashion into this lol\nYou really are just a pair of eyes arnt you. No complexity attached. \"I saw it in the window so I bought it! I didn't even care that it was 500$ I just wanted it because the other girls were eyeing it down and I just HAD to have it💅\"",
">\n\nI genuinely have no idea what you’re trying to convey. The topic of fashion was merely to represent that there are often complexities and nuance. So yes, I can be sex positive but I don’t necessarily have to agree with all the variances within the to topic of sex. \nI assume I’ve hit a nerve for your style of response.",
">\n\nNot sure about everywhere else but in America being as prostitution is illegal a lot of the situations the workers are in are really sad, depressing and predatory. If you take a look at the book “Pimp” by ice berg slim for example a lot of the industry isn’t the ideal some just wants to make money like any other job and the pimp is just a bodyguard/manger,\nA lot of it involves a tone of manipulation and dependency and when you add on the ones where safe sex isn’t a priority and the literal hundreds of partners you engage with in such a short time it all comes off as kinda gross.",
">\n\nSex, when a service, is not the same as any other service. There is a difference between driving a person somewhere in a taxi and having your face fucked and ejaculated on by a stranger. As many have stated before and as you can see in 99% of porn is that sex as a service is usually degrading towards women. Just look at the front page of any given porn site. Most of it is not, in any way, esteeming of the women participating. Look at goddamn blowjob videos. The women are not giving a blowjob - they are getting their face fucked. Extra points if they have to gag and be obviously physically uncomfortable and struggling to breathe. Dude it is just not the same as someone operating a forklift or making flower arrangements. Most of it is degrading and the more degrading the more klicks - the more people who frequent porn sites like it. And it's the same with prostitution. Read about what these women have experienced. It is plain awful. Sure if you are talking about a utopia where you can be 100% sure the prostitutes are there on their own terms and if every single customer is a loving, caring, gentle person taking care of the sex workers needs as much as their own - then yes, there would not be anything wrong with it. But that is just not how it is.\nHow hard is it, even in a healthy loving relationship, to always have both partners perfectly satisfied and met their needs sexually?\nSex is as intimate as human interaction can get and buying that from someone is taking all incentive away to treat the other person as good as you would treat a partner who you love and/or actively want to enjoy the time with you.\nAnd that is what disgusts people about people who frequent prostitutes. The possibility of being a person who, as long as they pay for something or feel like they've done their dues, doesn't give a shit about what the person on the other end is experiencing.\nedit: Because of other comments from OP I accused them of debating rather than discussing and suggested if they were seeking moral validation for what they do, which in itself was not part of a discussion really. I deleted that part because it serves no neutral purpose."
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My view on it is that the act in itself is not wrong for anybody involved, but the character implication is what causes it to be met with disgust by some.
If you have money and you pay for sex from somebody who is willing, then it's no problem, but the issue comes when you delve into why they might be paying for sex.
Many people experience sex in a consensual environment with a person who desires sex with them, and no money is involved. Many would view this as a very normal and important part of life.
The question that comes up subconsciously and/or consciously is "why does this person need to pay for sex?"
It could be that they have undeveloped social skills and this coild be deemed as a negative trait that needs to be worked on.
Another reason could be an atypically high sex drive, which could also be perceived as sex addiction.
These are not unlikely reasons for a person to pay a sex worker for sex and a judgement could be made before understanding more that they possess These sorts of traits that people simply have the desire to avoid.
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[
"/u/Due-Lie-8710 (OP) has awarded 7 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nThere's a song I like that speaks on this fairly poetically, so I'd like to start by just directly quoting it:\n\nSo when you bled on the bed as you fed those expectations, as a whore and not a human, you embraced with hesitation the very parameters of all you can be. Not a mother, not an aunt, not a sister who's not subdued. Because dignity's not physical, and your flesh means more than you.\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.",
">\n\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.\n\nFirst of all if you aren't trafficked it is just like another job, as for you both being seen as human , make sense hey aren't there to befriend to have sex , you are performing a service, it's like you watching football or a movie, you only see them as footballers ot actors , half of the time they don't care about their personal life, there are some jobs that prevent you from getting any high paying jobs or jobs that involve care , as for the people purchasing it , if you can't purchase it then why should they sell it , you don't actually support sex work, because that would mean accepting the consumer base ad well as the supplier",
">\n\nThat’s a really big if though, sex work isn’t exactly an industry where you will know for sure if the service you’re getting is consensual. individuals who are victims of sexual trafficking, coercion, or just life circumstance aren’t likely to just tell their “customers” if it isn’t consensual. they could endanger themselves or not be aware that they can say something. \nSeeing someone as an object vs seeing them as an individual with a job aren’t the same though? yes we recognize actors and football players by their career choice and how well they are at it, but they’re still people at the end of the day? that’s why they have fanbases, interviews, paparazzi, popularity on social media, movie adaptions of their life exist—people are interested in more than them just doing their job.\nA persons job is no reason to suddenly strip them of their humanity and rights granted them for being such, that kind of mentality is morally skewed and why a lot of people would not support sex work. plus you can’t say it makes sense for sex workers to be see as commodities only and then believe sex work will be consensual. the whole consent part comes from recognizing that this is another person who has their own boundaries and limits beyond just what you want.",
">\n\nokay, that’s a plumber and not a person you’re having sex with. unlike plumbing which is clean cut, sex can include multiple aspects of different kinks and fetishes. You can’t expect a sex worker to be okay with say participating in rape play, anal, scat, and a mirage of other kinks simply because they agreed to sex. Sex is not clean cut, there is more to it. There has to be a boundary somewhere, this is another person body not a pipe.",
">\n\nThat’s like the point? recognizing the boundary and proceeding from there by RESPECTING the boundary because they are another person and not some masturbatory object. What you just said was a consensual interaction. The initial point was that there is no consensual sex without respecting the party that’s giving as a person.",
">\n\nSo... there's a concept of a moral hazard. \nThere's literally no way for an individual to be certain that their prostitute is not being coerced/trafficked. Even if there are some special circumstances where it might be unlikely, certainty is still impossible, and most people frequenting prostitutes are not in those special circumstances.\nSomeone using their services is therefore extremely likely to be comfortable with risking that they are unknowingly raping someone. \nGenerally speaking, people find that disgusting.",
">\n\nIf you eat chocolate (even the stuff with the fair trade sticker) then there's no guarantee that it hasn't come from slave farms which are not uncommon. If you eat chocolate throughout your life then you are almost definitely contributing to slavery. If you visit a prostitute regularly then the chance they're being exploited is anywhere from functioninally 0% to 100%. So why treat the John who might be discerning with scorn and not the chocolate eater who is a much safer bet in having contributed to coerced labour.",
">\n\nIt's worth trying to avoid those situations, but ultimately it's a very false equivalence to hold people responsible for the actions of others, vs. their own personal actions.\nWhen you buy chocolate, you're not actually holding a gun to a slave, someone else is. The right answer to that is to lobby for worker protections for imported goods, and to try to end involuntary servitude within your country as well. \nWhen you have sex with a trafficked person, you personally literally raped them. If you don't have good evidence to know they aren't trafficked, you're personally ok with the possibility you're going to personally rape them. \nBoth might be considered bad. But it's a false equivalence.\nAnd sure... if someone is paying someone for sex when they are personal friends with them, and interact with them outside of prostitution enough to personally know that they aren't being trafficked... and you're sure they aren't lying, scorning them more than at most some light ribbing isn't justified. It's not like \"sugar daddies\" aren't a thing as well. At the very least much less disapprobation would be appropriate.",
">\n\nIn both cases, there is a customer receiving a service provided by a potentially enslaved person. They are morally equivalent. It makes no sense to say “sure I bought the slavery chocolate, but you can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”",
">\n\n\nyou can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”\n\nThe slavers actions are distinct from the consumers' actions for most things. \nThis is an actual important difference when it comes to prostitution. \nIgnoring that fundamental difference doesn't make it go away, and it's entirely reasonable for someone to make that distinction.",
">\n\nThe slaver and consumer are different people who take different actions in the prostitution scenario. The consumer in both scenarios is taking the risk of being immoral. If I force you to be my slave that’s still immoral whether or not I put you to work in my brothel or mine or factory or fishing boat. And if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever, it’s equivalent.",
">\n\n\nAnd if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever , it’s equivalent.\n\nThis is where the false equivalence comes in. \nSomeone making products with slave labor is not renting out a slave to the consumer so that they consumer can force them to perform mining for the consumer. They are enslaving the labor to create a product, and selling the product. Products don't have rights to violate. The only person violating the rights of the slave is the slaver.\nSomeone trafficking a victim is renting out that victim so that the consumer can rape them.",
">\n\nIf the sex is only contractual to you? Why not just \"hook up.\" Why pay? You will never be able to guarantee they are not being trafficked. If they are, they are not going to tell you. I think the idea of money exchanging hands for sex is the why most have a problem. The idea that you are giving a woman money for sex has been historically seen as her being a whore. \nI am not saying she is. I am saying that from the time it first exchanged hands, that is what it was. Men who could not find a woman, paid a woman. Why do you want others to see it differently? Yes, there will be outliers that will enjoy the work. But those are going to be ones that, like the escort, chose it, and charge what they want. Not the typical street hookers on the corner with pimps to pay. \nProve they are not trafficked, they work for themselves, they are clean (of both drugs and diseases - because they are taking care of themselves and being safe), and that they are a sex worker because they enjoy the work or that that chose the work. Then, hey! Pay 'em and get to it!",
">\n\nI think it is morally unhealthy to normalize it. Even though you have to be an adult to smoke weed, we definitely see weed as a normal thing to do in moderation compared to a few decades ago. This is how we would see prostitution if it was normalized. And I think weed has a lot less complications than legalizing prostitution. A LOT!\nSex work online is a lot safer and requires a lot less mental issues to engage in and promote. But even then, I know some sex workers (online type), and they are scarred by the stuff they have seen when it comes to their job. They have told me stories that are extremely disturbing. These are women who just do stuff by themselves. Not working with a porn company and other people.\nAlso, sex has a huge reputation for being violent and demoralizing towards women in general. I'd assume those numbers would be much higher in men looking to pay for sex. You'd have to have extremely strict and tight regulations for this sort of thing, which would take the fun out of it for a lot of people. And even then, there would still be many mistakes that would happen before we find out all the regulations that are needed. And I don't think we could ever make it mentally and physically safe for women.\nNow, do I think it should be decriminalized for prostitutes? Definitely. I don't see them as disgusting. I feel quite bad for them. Most of them were trafficked at a young age. Do I see men wanting to pay for sex as disgusting? Not necessarily. It depends on the person and the situation. However, this isn't a simple issue where if we just \"stop judging people,\" everything will be fine.",
">\n\nDecriminalizing prostitution for both those selling and buying is demonstrably safer for prostitutes. If it is criminal for the buyer but not the seller, the buyer is often highly defensive and paranoid about the seller, specifically the possibility that they may be working with law enforcement. The buyer will often push to do it in a highly isolated setting as well. These things increase violence that sex workers face, and the averages go down in places where it is decriminalized to both buy and sell. If you have a designated work place for it and no one needs to be distrustful and worried about being arrested, that is the safest situation for all involved. \nWe may disagree with buying it for whatever moral reason, but if we choose to criminalize the purchase of it, we are prioritizing punishing behavior we morally disagree with over prioritizing the safety of those involved, which I can't get behind.",
">\n\nBut there are so many more facets to the safety of legalizing it for the buyer other than them being pushy or wanting to do it in a hidden area. If we legalized it, it still wouldn't really help any of the points I made or is even something that is so overwhelmingly an issue compared to the points I made.",
">\n\nSo long as we have to work to live, all jobs are coercive, even sex work. I’m skeptical that there can ever be a consensual exchange within our current economic context.",
">\n\nExactly , I get sex is intimate but if you are willing to view sex work as any other job , you should be willing to treat it as such",
">\n\nSex work has certain occupational hazards that cannot be regulated away. OSHA (in the US) dictates that a person cannot be subject to bodily fluids without proper PPE in the workplace, and often johns just need to pay more to not wear a condom. Imagine a construction site paying workers more to not wear a hard hat. The greater potential for bodily harm is intrinsic to the work, and it will always be unsafe.",
">\n\nTrue but this doesn't really answer my question",
">\n\nMy point is that treating it like any other job is not ethically possible due to hazardous conditions",
">\n\nThis is a bad take.\nI’d wager prostitution doesn’t even rank in the top ten dangerous jobs by capita.",
">\n\nThat really depends. A gas station cashier likely has a higher risk of being killed. But a quick Google shows sex workers are thirty times more likely to get Aids than the general population. They're also at ridiculously high rates of risk to their mental health. Ptsd is common. Also, yes, sitting at a counter in a gas station is technically dangerous. But it is different type of danger compared to someone fucking them in the ass while shoving a sock in their mouth and calling them a dirty whore. When this happens to a prostitute, since she isn't dead, then all good right?! :) Her job isn't dangerous, she's still alive! And they're really not paid much. Average pay for a sex scene in porn for a woman is around $600, for the guy it's like a hundred. For prostitution you're looking at a hundred to two hundred dollars. \nAlso, if you're in the us. Good luck affording health insurance as an independent contractor engaged in sex work.",
">\n\nI’m not exactly impressed with the American system so if you’re criticising Americans health system then fuck yeah more power to you.\nYou raise fantastic points about there being non lethal dangers in sex work that are worth considering and harder to measure.\nThat being said, sit for a while and think about whether you think that sex workers are in a job so dangerous that it deserves its own category and shouldn’t even be allowed. (This is what the commenter I was responding to was claiming)\nI’m comfortable I’d ban lumberjack as a profession long before I considered banning prostitution based on relative level of danger and conditions.\nI don’t have a specific statistic but soldiers at an educated guess would probably be more likely to experience danger and mental issues but the commenter I responded to probably never thought for one second about banning soldiers on that basis.\nIt’s clear bias, being rationalised as something it isn’t.",
">\n\nIt's decriminalised where I live, which means women can arrange anything themselves. So you can have a strip club with a \"hotel\" above it. Basically 100% of the workers are foreign, from places like Ukraine. Russia, Moldova, Romania. Etc. It's a strange aspect which isn't often brought up. But\"legalizing \" almost always results on foreign workers undercutting any local workforce. How can a 26 year old American girl from the burbs compete with an 18 year Thai girl? One is fine doing work at basically the rates of a full time McDonald's employee, while the other isn't. And of course, that breeds the type of people you'd imagine running the business. Even in places like Amsterdam, where there's tons of regulation, you get the same trafficking you see anywhere else.\nSo morally. I've got zero problem. But I've just never seen a model that can actually ensure safety for everyone involved.",
">\n\nWell culture is everything isn't it? Of there wasn't so much sex tourism from places that have prostitution illegal there would probably be less demand wouldn't there? Less demand would make the whole industry safer imo due to the loss of money driving the search for foreign market girls\nLike imagine the whole world has a brothel just down the block. Does that make it more safe just by sheer volume and normality?",
">\n\nFirstly, i'm not religious, i'm sex-positive and the sex lives of strangers rarely concerns me. I don't think paying for these services makes you a \"bad\" person, nor a \"disgusting\" one.. but for me, it would affect your desirability to me as a partner. To me attraction is a big thing, and i'll be honest, I see it as kind of lame. Not morally corrupt but just ...desperate. \nI would want my partner to be someone that women wanted to have sex with, not the man that they had sex with as a purely profitable transaction. Whilst it's consensual, when you involve money or a benefit other than sex, the line slightly blurs, and I find it becomes icky. \nIt's not even that I think my partner should only have had strictly intimate and personable relations... but the question does spring to mind of \"is sex that has been paid for truly consensual? can you guarantee that?\" Even popular Pornstars who previously agreed to do porn and made careers out of it have stories where they later felt disgusted by what they've had to do but were so enamored by the money, they went through with it. Sex workers will ALWAYS sell a positive image to their clients, part of their job is to make you feel desired, but you never truly know the reality. \nAll in all, it can be seen as \"bad\" or \"disgusting\" because monetary rewards affects the lines of purely consensual sex. The same way it can be icky for a boss to have sex with the intern, the same way directors have sex with actresses that want to star in their movies, and the same way rockstars have sex with their fans. Doesn't make 'em rapists, but it's why people won't look at it as respectable.",
">\n\nyou aren’t sex positive if you think paying for sex is desperate.\ndoes paying for alcohol mean you’re desperate for happiness? some people want to have fun so they buy drinks, others find more fun in sex. as long as sex work is consensual and not the result of pimping or some other form of coercion then I don’t see any harm or how it would be desperate.\nthere are tangible benefits to buying sex vs finding it “naturally” that i don’t think you’re considering. \nwith sex workers you’re safer and don’t have to worry about pregnancy, theft, psychotic women, and other risks that come from random hookups with strangers or even casual dating. there’s also the whole “i don’t need to put time and effort into finding and flirting with someone” when it can be on demand. yea making food at home is usually cheaper and better tasting than takeout but sometimes you’re lazy and want a pizza delivered.",
">\n\nI’m generally sex positive to consensual sex between people. However, everything falls on a spectrum and I don’t think you have to have a certain view on every avenue to be as such. Much like you can love your job, your country or your friends but that doesn’t mean you can’t provide any forms of criticism nor must you love EVERY aspect of these things. \nI have no disdain for people who hook up on dating apps, clubs, attend sex parties etc. I will always believe sex workers should have right to practice and do so in a safe environment. I also wouldn’t stop their client base either, it’s not my business, but there are ethical implications and I’ve said my view from the perspective of my partner which naturally i hold to a more personable standard. I wouldn’t want to be with someone who puts their sexual desires above the possible implications involved in sex work. \nI do want to touch on your point that as long as it’s not coerced or forced, it’s okay. The ethical implication behind this is that when you involve money, this is not guaranteed. Not all clients will take the time to research the background and extra people involved behind the scenes. The women with pimps and who are trafficked won’t spill those beans to you. Again, there will always be exceptions to the rule. \nI understand that sex work is convenient to many but my perception is not swayed by the mere idea that paying for sex means you get to avoid having to flirt with women. Much like I can understand why people have no choice to purchase fast fashion and I’ll understand the reasoning but that does not mean I should ignore the child labour and poor conditions that make this possible. \nAll in all, I won’t stop you but I’m going to think it’s kinda lame. You can wear an item of clothing, I’ll defend you to wear that clothing and I won’t make you feel bad for wearing it.. but I may not like it myself.",
">\n\nReading your posts made me think of a bird preening it's feathers to attract a mate. I thought it was just you being obtuse untill you brought fashion into this lol\nYou really are just a pair of eyes arnt you. No complexity attached. \"I saw it in the window so I bought it! I didn't even care that it was 500$ I just wanted it because the other girls were eyeing it down and I just HAD to have it💅\"",
">\n\nI genuinely have no idea what you’re trying to convey. The topic of fashion was merely to represent that there are often complexities and nuance. So yes, I can be sex positive but I don’t necessarily have to agree with all the variances within the to topic of sex. \nI assume I’ve hit a nerve for your style of response.",
">\n\nNot sure about everywhere else but in America being as prostitution is illegal a lot of the situations the workers are in are really sad, depressing and predatory. If you take a look at the book “Pimp” by ice berg slim for example a lot of the industry isn’t the ideal some just wants to make money like any other job and the pimp is just a bodyguard/manger,\nA lot of it involves a tone of manipulation and dependency and when you add on the ones where safe sex isn’t a priority and the literal hundreds of partners you engage with in such a short time it all comes off as kinda gross.",
">\n\nSex, when a service, is not the same as any other service. There is a difference between driving a person somewhere in a taxi and having your face fucked and ejaculated on by a stranger. As many have stated before and as you can see in 99% of porn is that sex as a service is usually degrading towards women. Just look at the front page of any given porn site. Most of it is not, in any way, esteeming of the women participating. Look at goddamn blowjob videos. The women are not giving a blowjob - they are getting their face fucked. Extra points if they have to gag and be obviously physically uncomfortable and struggling to breathe. Dude it is just not the same as someone operating a forklift or making flower arrangements. Most of it is degrading and the more degrading the more klicks - the more people who frequent porn sites like it. And it's the same with prostitution. Read about what these women have experienced. It is plain awful. Sure if you are talking about a utopia where you can be 100% sure the prostitutes are there on their own terms and if every single customer is a loving, caring, gentle person taking care of the sex workers needs as much as their own - then yes, there would not be anything wrong with it. But that is just not how it is.\nHow hard is it, even in a healthy loving relationship, to always have both partners perfectly satisfied and met their needs sexually?\nSex is as intimate as human interaction can get and buying that from someone is taking all incentive away to treat the other person as good as you would treat a partner who you love and/or actively want to enjoy the time with you.\nAnd that is what disgusts people about people who frequent prostitutes. The possibility of being a person who, as long as they pay for something or feel like they've done their dues, doesn't give a shit about what the person on the other end is experiencing.\nedit: Because of other comments from OP I accused them of debating rather than discussing and suggested if they were seeking moral validation for what they do, which in itself was not part of a discussion really. I deleted that part because it serves no neutral purpose.",
">\n\nWell in this context not special but very very different, in the way that it is way more intimate, there's actually a part of ones body entering the others. There is exchange of bodily fluids. Those services are different from each other the same way as a massage is different to shoving items across a scanner, just times ten. One is naked, one experiences pleasure (or great pain) and one is not using their body to do something, they are having their body be used by someone else. That can leave physical bruises and mental scars because one is extremely vulnerable in the act."
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This is the correct answer.
The reason people look down on people who hire hookers has nothing to do with sex trafficking, or what really qualifies as consent, or any of the other comments in this thread. I think a good example is your iPhone. It is basically made with slave labor, but nobody really gives a shit. They just happily use their phone. If they actually did give a shit, they wouldn't buy iPhones. Also, prostitution has been around basically since the beginning of time. It has always been a part of human relationships and always will be.
For better or worse, the reason people look down on people who hire hookers is that it implies you are deficient in some way. If you were better looking or had better social skills or had more control over your base urges you would not need to hire a hooker.
Personally, I look at it like a wheelchair. I dont need a wheelchair and I really hope I never need one, but it is not fair (and downright cruel) for me to look down on someone who does use one. Are they deficient in some way? Yes. They can't walk. Do they deserve admonishment or judgement? No. Not at all.
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[
"/u/Due-Lie-8710 (OP) has awarded 7 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nThere's a song I like that speaks on this fairly poetically, so I'd like to start by just directly quoting it:\n\nSo when you bled on the bed as you fed those expectations, as a whore and not a human, you embraced with hesitation the very parameters of all you can be. Not a mother, not an aunt, not a sister who's not subdued. Because dignity's not physical, and your flesh means more than you.\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.",
">\n\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.\n\nFirst of all if you aren't trafficked it is just like another job, as for you both being seen as human , make sense hey aren't there to befriend to have sex , you are performing a service, it's like you watching football or a movie, you only see them as footballers ot actors , half of the time they don't care about their personal life, there are some jobs that prevent you from getting any high paying jobs or jobs that involve care , as for the people purchasing it , if you can't purchase it then why should they sell it , you don't actually support sex work, because that would mean accepting the consumer base ad well as the supplier",
">\n\nThat’s a really big if though, sex work isn’t exactly an industry where you will know for sure if the service you’re getting is consensual. individuals who are victims of sexual trafficking, coercion, or just life circumstance aren’t likely to just tell their “customers” if it isn’t consensual. they could endanger themselves or not be aware that they can say something. \nSeeing someone as an object vs seeing them as an individual with a job aren’t the same though? yes we recognize actors and football players by their career choice and how well they are at it, but they’re still people at the end of the day? that’s why they have fanbases, interviews, paparazzi, popularity on social media, movie adaptions of their life exist—people are interested in more than them just doing their job.\nA persons job is no reason to suddenly strip them of their humanity and rights granted them for being such, that kind of mentality is morally skewed and why a lot of people would not support sex work. plus you can’t say it makes sense for sex workers to be see as commodities only and then believe sex work will be consensual. the whole consent part comes from recognizing that this is another person who has their own boundaries and limits beyond just what you want.",
">\n\nokay, that’s a plumber and not a person you’re having sex with. unlike plumbing which is clean cut, sex can include multiple aspects of different kinks and fetishes. You can’t expect a sex worker to be okay with say participating in rape play, anal, scat, and a mirage of other kinks simply because they agreed to sex. Sex is not clean cut, there is more to it. There has to be a boundary somewhere, this is another person body not a pipe.",
">\n\nThat’s like the point? recognizing the boundary and proceeding from there by RESPECTING the boundary because they are another person and not some masturbatory object. What you just said was a consensual interaction. The initial point was that there is no consensual sex without respecting the party that’s giving as a person.",
">\n\nSo... there's a concept of a moral hazard. \nThere's literally no way for an individual to be certain that their prostitute is not being coerced/trafficked. Even if there are some special circumstances where it might be unlikely, certainty is still impossible, and most people frequenting prostitutes are not in those special circumstances.\nSomeone using their services is therefore extremely likely to be comfortable with risking that they are unknowingly raping someone. \nGenerally speaking, people find that disgusting.",
">\n\nIf you eat chocolate (even the stuff with the fair trade sticker) then there's no guarantee that it hasn't come from slave farms which are not uncommon. If you eat chocolate throughout your life then you are almost definitely contributing to slavery. If you visit a prostitute regularly then the chance they're being exploited is anywhere from functioninally 0% to 100%. So why treat the John who might be discerning with scorn and not the chocolate eater who is a much safer bet in having contributed to coerced labour.",
">\n\nIt's worth trying to avoid those situations, but ultimately it's a very false equivalence to hold people responsible for the actions of others, vs. their own personal actions.\nWhen you buy chocolate, you're not actually holding a gun to a slave, someone else is. The right answer to that is to lobby for worker protections for imported goods, and to try to end involuntary servitude within your country as well. \nWhen you have sex with a trafficked person, you personally literally raped them. If you don't have good evidence to know they aren't trafficked, you're personally ok with the possibility you're going to personally rape them. \nBoth might be considered bad. But it's a false equivalence.\nAnd sure... if someone is paying someone for sex when they are personal friends with them, and interact with them outside of prostitution enough to personally know that they aren't being trafficked... and you're sure they aren't lying, scorning them more than at most some light ribbing isn't justified. It's not like \"sugar daddies\" aren't a thing as well. At the very least much less disapprobation would be appropriate.",
">\n\nIn both cases, there is a customer receiving a service provided by a potentially enslaved person. They are morally equivalent. It makes no sense to say “sure I bought the slavery chocolate, but you can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”",
">\n\n\nyou can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”\n\nThe slavers actions are distinct from the consumers' actions for most things. \nThis is an actual important difference when it comes to prostitution. \nIgnoring that fundamental difference doesn't make it go away, and it's entirely reasonable for someone to make that distinction.",
">\n\nThe slaver and consumer are different people who take different actions in the prostitution scenario. The consumer in both scenarios is taking the risk of being immoral. If I force you to be my slave that’s still immoral whether or not I put you to work in my brothel or mine or factory or fishing boat. And if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever, it’s equivalent.",
">\n\n\nAnd if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever , it’s equivalent.\n\nThis is where the false equivalence comes in. \nSomeone making products with slave labor is not renting out a slave to the consumer so that they consumer can force them to perform mining for the consumer. They are enslaving the labor to create a product, and selling the product. Products don't have rights to violate. The only person violating the rights of the slave is the slaver.\nSomeone trafficking a victim is renting out that victim so that the consumer can rape them.",
">\n\nIf the sex is only contractual to you? Why not just \"hook up.\" Why pay? You will never be able to guarantee they are not being trafficked. If they are, they are not going to tell you. I think the idea of money exchanging hands for sex is the why most have a problem. The idea that you are giving a woman money for sex has been historically seen as her being a whore. \nI am not saying she is. I am saying that from the time it first exchanged hands, that is what it was. Men who could not find a woman, paid a woman. Why do you want others to see it differently? Yes, there will be outliers that will enjoy the work. But those are going to be ones that, like the escort, chose it, and charge what they want. Not the typical street hookers on the corner with pimps to pay. \nProve they are not trafficked, they work for themselves, they are clean (of both drugs and diseases - because they are taking care of themselves and being safe), and that they are a sex worker because they enjoy the work or that that chose the work. Then, hey! Pay 'em and get to it!",
">\n\nI think it is morally unhealthy to normalize it. Even though you have to be an adult to smoke weed, we definitely see weed as a normal thing to do in moderation compared to a few decades ago. This is how we would see prostitution if it was normalized. And I think weed has a lot less complications than legalizing prostitution. A LOT!\nSex work online is a lot safer and requires a lot less mental issues to engage in and promote. But even then, I know some sex workers (online type), and they are scarred by the stuff they have seen when it comes to their job. They have told me stories that are extremely disturbing. These are women who just do stuff by themselves. Not working with a porn company and other people.\nAlso, sex has a huge reputation for being violent and demoralizing towards women in general. I'd assume those numbers would be much higher in men looking to pay for sex. You'd have to have extremely strict and tight regulations for this sort of thing, which would take the fun out of it for a lot of people. And even then, there would still be many mistakes that would happen before we find out all the regulations that are needed. And I don't think we could ever make it mentally and physically safe for women.\nNow, do I think it should be decriminalized for prostitutes? Definitely. I don't see them as disgusting. I feel quite bad for them. Most of them were trafficked at a young age. Do I see men wanting to pay for sex as disgusting? Not necessarily. It depends on the person and the situation. However, this isn't a simple issue where if we just \"stop judging people,\" everything will be fine.",
">\n\nDecriminalizing prostitution for both those selling and buying is demonstrably safer for prostitutes. If it is criminal for the buyer but not the seller, the buyer is often highly defensive and paranoid about the seller, specifically the possibility that they may be working with law enforcement. The buyer will often push to do it in a highly isolated setting as well. These things increase violence that sex workers face, and the averages go down in places where it is decriminalized to both buy and sell. If you have a designated work place for it and no one needs to be distrustful and worried about being arrested, that is the safest situation for all involved. \nWe may disagree with buying it for whatever moral reason, but if we choose to criminalize the purchase of it, we are prioritizing punishing behavior we morally disagree with over prioritizing the safety of those involved, which I can't get behind.",
">\n\nBut there are so many more facets to the safety of legalizing it for the buyer other than them being pushy or wanting to do it in a hidden area. If we legalized it, it still wouldn't really help any of the points I made or is even something that is so overwhelmingly an issue compared to the points I made.",
">\n\nSo long as we have to work to live, all jobs are coercive, even sex work. I’m skeptical that there can ever be a consensual exchange within our current economic context.",
">\n\nExactly , I get sex is intimate but if you are willing to view sex work as any other job , you should be willing to treat it as such",
">\n\nSex work has certain occupational hazards that cannot be regulated away. OSHA (in the US) dictates that a person cannot be subject to bodily fluids without proper PPE in the workplace, and often johns just need to pay more to not wear a condom. Imagine a construction site paying workers more to not wear a hard hat. The greater potential for bodily harm is intrinsic to the work, and it will always be unsafe.",
">\n\nTrue but this doesn't really answer my question",
">\n\nMy point is that treating it like any other job is not ethically possible due to hazardous conditions",
">\n\nThis is a bad take.\nI’d wager prostitution doesn’t even rank in the top ten dangerous jobs by capita.",
">\n\nThat really depends. A gas station cashier likely has a higher risk of being killed. But a quick Google shows sex workers are thirty times more likely to get Aids than the general population. They're also at ridiculously high rates of risk to their mental health. Ptsd is common. Also, yes, sitting at a counter in a gas station is technically dangerous. But it is different type of danger compared to someone fucking them in the ass while shoving a sock in their mouth and calling them a dirty whore. When this happens to a prostitute, since she isn't dead, then all good right?! :) Her job isn't dangerous, she's still alive! And they're really not paid much. Average pay for a sex scene in porn for a woman is around $600, for the guy it's like a hundred. For prostitution you're looking at a hundred to two hundred dollars. \nAlso, if you're in the us. Good luck affording health insurance as an independent contractor engaged in sex work.",
">\n\nI’m not exactly impressed with the American system so if you’re criticising Americans health system then fuck yeah more power to you.\nYou raise fantastic points about there being non lethal dangers in sex work that are worth considering and harder to measure.\nThat being said, sit for a while and think about whether you think that sex workers are in a job so dangerous that it deserves its own category and shouldn’t even be allowed. (This is what the commenter I was responding to was claiming)\nI’m comfortable I’d ban lumberjack as a profession long before I considered banning prostitution based on relative level of danger and conditions.\nI don’t have a specific statistic but soldiers at an educated guess would probably be more likely to experience danger and mental issues but the commenter I responded to probably never thought for one second about banning soldiers on that basis.\nIt’s clear bias, being rationalised as something it isn’t.",
">\n\nIt's decriminalised where I live, which means women can arrange anything themselves. So you can have a strip club with a \"hotel\" above it. Basically 100% of the workers are foreign, from places like Ukraine. Russia, Moldova, Romania. Etc. It's a strange aspect which isn't often brought up. But\"legalizing \" almost always results on foreign workers undercutting any local workforce. How can a 26 year old American girl from the burbs compete with an 18 year Thai girl? One is fine doing work at basically the rates of a full time McDonald's employee, while the other isn't. And of course, that breeds the type of people you'd imagine running the business. Even in places like Amsterdam, where there's tons of regulation, you get the same trafficking you see anywhere else.\nSo morally. I've got zero problem. But I've just never seen a model that can actually ensure safety for everyone involved.",
">\n\nWell culture is everything isn't it? Of there wasn't so much sex tourism from places that have prostitution illegal there would probably be less demand wouldn't there? Less demand would make the whole industry safer imo due to the loss of money driving the search for foreign market girls\nLike imagine the whole world has a brothel just down the block. Does that make it more safe just by sheer volume and normality?",
">\n\nFirstly, i'm not religious, i'm sex-positive and the sex lives of strangers rarely concerns me. I don't think paying for these services makes you a \"bad\" person, nor a \"disgusting\" one.. but for me, it would affect your desirability to me as a partner. To me attraction is a big thing, and i'll be honest, I see it as kind of lame. Not morally corrupt but just ...desperate. \nI would want my partner to be someone that women wanted to have sex with, not the man that they had sex with as a purely profitable transaction. Whilst it's consensual, when you involve money or a benefit other than sex, the line slightly blurs, and I find it becomes icky. \nIt's not even that I think my partner should only have had strictly intimate and personable relations... but the question does spring to mind of \"is sex that has been paid for truly consensual? can you guarantee that?\" Even popular Pornstars who previously agreed to do porn and made careers out of it have stories where they later felt disgusted by what they've had to do but were so enamored by the money, they went through with it. Sex workers will ALWAYS sell a positive image to their clients, part of their job is to make you feel desired, but you never truly know the reality. \nAll in all, it can be seen as \"bad\" or \"disgusting\" because monetary rewards affects the lines of purely consensual sex. The same way it can be icky for a boss to have sex with the intern, the same way directors have sex with actresses that want to star in their movies, and the same way rockstars have sex with their fans. Doesn't make 'em rapists, but it's why people won't look at it as respectable.",
">\n\nyou aren’t sex positive if you think paying for sex is desperate.\ndoes paying for alcohol mean you’re desperate for happiness? some people want to have fun so they buy drinks, others find more fun in sex. as long as sex work is consensual and not the result of pimping or some other form of coercion then I don’t see any harm or how it would be desperate.\nthere are tangible benefits to buying sex vs finding it “naturally” that i don’t think you’re considering. \nwith sex workers you’re safer and don’t have to worry about pregnancy, theft, psychotic women, and other risks that come from random hookups with strangers or even casual dating. there’s also the whole “i don’t need to put time and effort into finding and flirting with someone” when it can be on demand. yea making food at home is usually cheaper and better tasting than takeout but sometimes you’re lazy and want a pizza delivered.",
">\n\nI’m generally sex positive to consensual sex between people. However, everything falls on a spectrum and I don’t think you have to have a certain view on every avenue to be as such. Much like you can love your job, your country or your friends but that doesn’t mean you can’t provide any forms of criticism nor must you love EVERY aspect of these things. \nI have no disdain for people who hook up on dating apps, clubs, attend sex parties etc. I will always believe sex workers should have right to practice and do so in a safe environment. I also wouldn’t stop their client base either, it’s not my business, but there are ethical implications and I’ve said my view from the perspective of my partner which naturally i hold to a more personable standard. I wouldn’t want to be with someone who puts their sexual desires above the possible implications involved in sex work. \nI do want to touch on your point that as long as it’s not coerced or forced, it’s okay. The ethical implication behind this is that when you involve money, this is not guaranteed. Not all clients will take the time to research the background and extra people involved behind the scenes. The women with pimps and who are trafficked won’t spill those beans to you. Again, there will always be exceptions to the rule. \nI understand that sex work is convenient to many but my perception is not swayed by the mere idea that paying for sex means you get to avoid having to flirt with women. Much like I can understand why people have no choice to purchase fast fashion and I’ll understand the reasoning but that does not mean I should ignore the child labour and poor conditions that make this possible. \nAll in all, I won’t stop you but I’m going to think it’s kinda lame. You can wear an item of clothing, I’ll defend you to wear that clothing and I won’t make you feel bad for wearing it.. but I may not like it myself.",
">\n\nReading your posts made me think of a bird preening it's feathers to attract a mate. I thought it was just you being obtuse untill you brought fashion into this lol\nYou really are just a pair of eyes arnt you. No complexity attached. \"I saw it in the window so I bought it! I didn't even care that it was 500$ I just wanted it because the other girls were eyeing it down and I just HAD to have it💅\"",
">\n\nI genuinely have no idea what you’re trying to convey. The topic of fashion was merely to represent that there are often complexities and nuance. So yes, I can be sex positive but I don’t necessarily have to agree with all the variances within the to topic of sex. \nI assume I’ve hit a nerve for your style of response.",
">\n\nNot sure about everywhere else but in America being as prostitution is illegal a lot of the situations the workers are in are really sad, depressing and predatory. If you take a look at the book “Pimp” by ice berg slim for example a lot of the industry isn’t the ideal some just wants to make money like any other job and the pimp is just a bodyguard/manger,\nA lot of it involves a tone of manipulation and dependency and when you add on the ones where safe sex isn’t a priority and the literal hundreds of partners you engage with in such a short time it all comes off as kinda gross.",
">\n\nSex, when a service, is not the same as any other service. There is a difference between driving a person somewhere in a taxi and having your face fucked and ejaculated on by a stranger. As many have stated before and as you can see in 99% of porn is that sex as a service is usually degrading towards women. Just look at the front page of any given porn site. Most of it is not, in any way, esteeming of the women participating. Look at goddamn blowjob videos. The women are not giving a blowjob - they are getting their face fucked. Extra points if they have to gag and be obviously physically uncomfortable and struggling to breathe. Dude it is just not the same as someone operating a forklift or making flower arrangements. Most of it is degrading and the more degrading the more klicks - the more people who frequent porn sites like it. And it's the same with prostitution. Read about what these women have experienced. It is plain awful. Sure if you are talking about a utopia where you can be 100% sure the prostitutes are there on their own terms and if every single customer is a loving, caring, gentle person taking care of the sex workers needs as much as their own - then yes, there would not be anything wrong with it. But that is just not how it is.\nHow hard is it, even in a healthy loving relationship, to always have both partners perfectly satisfied and met their needs sexually?\nSex is as intimate as human interaction can get and buying that from someone is taking all incentive away to treat the other person as good as you would treat a partner who you love and/or actively want to enjoy the time with you.\nAnd that is what disgusts people about people who frequent prostitutes. The possibility of being a person who, as long as they pay for something or feel like they've done their dues, doesn't give a shit about what the person on the other end is experiencing.\nedit: Because of other comments from OP I accused them of debating rather than discussing and suggested if they were seeking moral validation for what they do, which in itself was not part of a discussion really. I deleted that part because it serves no neutral purpose.",
">\n\nWell in this context not special but very very different, in the way that it is way more intimate, there's actually a part of ones body entering the others. There is exchange of bodily fluids. Those services are different from each other the same way as a massage is different to shoving items across a scanner, just times ten. One is naked, one experiences pleasure (or great pain) and one is not using their body to do something, they are having their body be used by someone else. That can leave physical bruises and mental scars because one is extremely vulnerable in the act.",
">\n\nMy view on it is that the act in itself is not wrong for anybody involved, but the character implication is what causes it to be met with disgust by some.\nIf you have money and you pay for sex from somebody who is willing, then it's no problem, but the issue comes when you delve into why they might be paying for sex.\nMany people experience sex in a consensual environment with a person who desires sex with them, and no money is involved. Many would view this as a very normal and important part of life.\nThe question that comes up subconsciously and/or consciously is \"why does this person need to pay for sex?\"\nIt could be that they have undeveloped social skills and this coild be deemed as a negative trait that needs to be worked on.\nAnother reason could be an atypically high sex drive, which could also be perceived as sex addiction.\nThese are not unlikely reasons for a person to pay a sex worker for sex and a judgement could be made before understanding more that they possess These sorts of traits that people simply have the desire to avoid."
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You're not paying too have sex with a prostitute. You're paying to use her body as a masturbatory aid.
Prostitution reduces women to being commodities, objects, things. Every other job, you're providing a skill to produce or exchange goods and services. Prostitution, the woman is the thing you're purchasing. The women are the commodities, they're not viewed as humen, they're viewed as consumable goods.
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"/u/Due-Lie-8710 (OP) has awarded 7 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nThere's a song I like that speaks on this fairly poetically, so I'd like to start by just directly quoting it:\n\nSo when you bled on the bed as you fed those expectations, as a whore and not a human, you embraced with hesitation the very parameters of all you can be. Not a mother, not an aunt, not a sister who's not subdued. Because dignity's not physical, and your flesh means more than you.\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.",
">\n\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.\n\nFirst of all if you aren't trafficked it is just like another job, as for you both being seen as human , make sense hey aren't there to befriend to have sex , you are performing a service, it's like you watching football or a movie, you only see them as footballers ot actors , half of the time they don't care about their personal life, there are some jobs that prevent you from getting any high paying jobs or jobs that involve care , as for the people purchasing it , if you can't purchase it then why should they sell it , you don't actually support sex work, because that would mean accepting the consumer base ad well as the supplier",
">\n\nThat’s a really big if though, sex work isn’t exactly an industry where you will know for sure if the service you’re getting is consensual. individuals who are victims of sexual trafficking, coercion, or just life circumstance aren’t likely to just tell their “customers” if it isn’t consensual. they could endanger themselves or not be aware that they can say something. \nSeeing someone as an object vs seeing them as an individual with a job aren’t the same though? yes we recognize actors and football players by their career choice and how well they are at it, but they’re still people at the end of the day? that’s why they have fanbases, interviews, paparazzi, popularity on social media, movie adaptions of their life exist—people are interested in more than them just doing their job.\nA persons job is no reason to suddenly strip them of their humanity and rights granted them for being such, that kind of mentality is morally skewed and why a lot of people would not support sex work. plus you can’t say it makes sense for sex workers to be see as commodities only and then believe sex work will be consensual. the whole consent part comes from recognizing that this is another person who has their own boundaries and limits beyond just what you want.",
">\n\nokay, that’s a plumber and not a person you’re having sex with. unlike plumbing which is clean cut, sex can include multiple aspects of different kinks and fetishes. You can’t expect a sex worker to be okay with say participating in rape play, anal, scat, and a mirage of other kinks simply because they agreed to sex. Sex is not clean cut, there is more to it. There has to be a boundary somewhere, this is another person body not a pipe.",
">\n\nThat’s like the point? recognizing the boundary and proceeding from there by RESPECTING the boundary because they are another person and not some masturbatory object. What you just said was a consensual interaction. The initial point was that there is no consensual sex without respecting the party that’s giving as a person.",
">\n\nSo... there's a concept of a moral hazard. \nThere's literally no way for an individual to be certain that their prostitute is not being coerced/trafficked. Even if there are some special circumstances where it might be unlikely, certainty is still impossible, and most people frequenting prostitutes are not in those special circumstances.\nSomeone using their services is therefore extremely likely to be comfortable with risking that they are unknowingly raping someone. \nGenerally speaking, people find that disgusting.",
">\n\nIf you eat chocolate (even the stuff with the fair trade sticker) then there's no guarantee that it hasn't come from slave farms which are not uncommon. If you eat chocolate throughout your life then you are almost definitely contributing to slavery. If you visit a prostitute regularly then the chance they're being exploited is anywhere from functioninally 0% to 100%. So why treat the John who might be discerning with scorn and not the chocolate eater who is a much safer bet in having contributed to coerced labour.",
">\n\nIt's worth trying to avoid those situations, but ultimately it's a very false equivalence to hold people responsible for the actions of others, vs. their own personal actions.\nWhen you buy chocolate, you're not actually holding a gun to a slave, someone else is. The right answer to that is to lobby for worker protections for imported goods, and to try to end involuntary servitude within your country as well. \nWhen you have sex with a trafficked person, you personally literally raped them. If you don't have good evidence to know they aren't trafficked, you're personally ok with the possibility you're going to personally rape them. \nBoth might be considered bad. But it's a false equivalence.\nAnd sure... if someone is paying someone for sex when they are personal friends with them, and interact with them outside of prostitution enough to personally know that they aren't being trafficked... and you're sure they aren't lying, scorning them more than at most some light ribbing isn't justified. It's not like \"sugar daddies\" aren't a thing as well. At the very least much less disapprobation would be appropriate.",
">\n\nIn both cases, there is a customer receiving a service provided by a potentially enslaved person. They are morally equivalent. It makes no sense to say “sure I bought the slavery chocolate, but you can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”",
">\n\n\nyou can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”\n\nThe slavers actions are distinct from the consumers' actions for most things. \nThis is an actual important difference when it comes to prostitution. \nIgnoring that fundamental difference doesn't make it go away, and it's entirely reasonable for someone to make that distinction.",
">\n\nThe slaver and consumer are different people who take different actions in the prostitution scenario. The consumer in both scenarios is taking the risk of being immoral. If I force you to be my slave that’s still immoral whether or not I put you to work in my brothel or mine or factory or fishing boat. And if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever, it’s equivalent.",
">\n\n\nAnd if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever , it’s equivalent.\n\nThis is where the false equivalence comes in. \nSomeone making products with slave labor is not renting out a slave to the consumer so that they consumer can force them to perform mining for the consumer. They are enslaving the labor to create a product, and selling the product. Products don't have rights to violate. The only person violating the rights of the slave is the slaver.\nSomeone trafficking a victim is renting out that victim so that the consumer can rape them.",
">\n\nIf the sex is only contractual to you? Why not just \"hook up.\" Why pay? You will never be able to guarantee they are not being trafficked. If they are, they are not going to tell you. I think the idea of money exchanging hands for sex is the why most have a problem. The idea that you are giving a woman money for sex has been historically seen as her being a whore. \nI am not saying she is. I am saying that from the time it first exchanged hands, that is what it was. Men who could not find a woman, paid a woman. Why do you want others to see it differently? Yes, there will be outliers that will enjoy the work. But those are going to be ones that, like the escort, chose it, and charge what they want. Not the typical street hookers on the corner with pimps to pay. \nProve they are not trafficked, they work for themselves, they are clean (of both drugs and diseases - because they are taking care of themselves and being safe), and that they are a sex worker because they enjoy the work or that that chose the work. Then, hey! Pay 'em and get to it!",
">\n\nI think it is morally unhealthy to normalize it. Even though you have to be an adult to smoke weed, we definitely see weed as a normal thing to do in moderation compared to a few decades ago. This is how we would see prostitution if it was normalized. And I think weed has a lot less complications than legalizing prostitution. A LOT!\nSex work online is a lot safer and requires a lot less mental issues to engage in and promote. But even then, I know some sex workers (online type), and they are scarred by the stuff they have seen when it comes to their job. They have told me stories that are extremely disturbing. These are women who just do stuff by themselves. Not working with a porn company and other people.\nAlso, sex has a huge reputation for being violent and demoralizing towards women in general. I'd assume those numbers would be much higher in men looking to pay for sex. You'd have to have extremely strict and tight regulations for this sort of thing, which would take the fun out of it for a lot of people. And even then, there would still be many mistakes that would happen before we find out all the regulations that are needed. And I don't think we could ever make it mentally and physically safe for women.\nNow, do I think it should be decriminalized for prostitutes? Definitely. I don't see them as disgusting. I feel quite bad for them. Most of them were trafficked at a young age. Do I see men wanting to pay for sex as disgusting? Not necessarily. It depends on the person and the situation. However, this isn't a simple issue where if we just \"stop judging people,\" everything will be fine.",
">\n\nDecriminalizing prostitution for both those selling and buying is demonstrably safer for prostitutes. If it is criminal for the buyer but not the seller, the buyer is often highly defensive and paranoid about the seller, specifically the possibility that they may be working with law enforcement. The buyer will often push to do it in a highly isolated setting as well. These things increase violence that sex workers face, and the averages go down in places where it is decriminalized to both buy and sell. If you have a designated work place for it and no one needs to be distrustful and worried about being arrested, that is the safest situation for all involved. \nWe may disagree with buying it for whatever moral reason, but if we choose to criminalize the purchase of it, we are prioritizing punishing behavior we morally disagree with over prioritizing the safety of those involved, which I can't get behind.",
">\n\nBut there are so many more facets to the safety of legalizing it for the buyer other than them being pushy or wanting to do it in a hidden area. If we legalized it, it still wouldn't really help any of the points I made or is even something that is so overwhelmingly an issue compared to the points I made.",
">\n\nSo long as we have to work to live, all jobs are coercive, even sex work. I’m skeptical that there can ever be a consensual exchange within our current economic context.",
">\n\nExactly , I get sex is intimate but if you are willing to view sex work as any other job , you should be willing to treat it as such",
">\n\nSex work has certain occupational hazards that cannot be regulated away. OSHA (in the US) dictates that a person cannot be subject to bodily fluids without proper PPE in the workplace, and often johns just need to pay more to not wear a condom. Imagine a construction site paying workers more to not wear a hard hat. The greater potential for bodily harm is intrinsic to the work, and it will always be unsafe.",
">\n\nTrue but this doesn't really answer my question",
">\n\nMy point is that treating it like any other job is not ethically possible due to hazardous conditions",
">\n\nThis is a bad take.\nI’d wager prostitution doesn’t even rank in the top ten dangerous jobs by capita.",
">\n\nThat really depends. A gas station cashier likely has a higher risk of being killed. But a quick Google shows sex workers are thirty times more likely to get Aids than the general population. They're also at ridiculously high rates of risk to their mental health. Ptsd is common. Also, yes, sitting at a counter in a gas station is technically dangerous. But it is different type of danger compared to someone fucking them in the ass while shoving a sock in their mouth and calling them a dirty whore. When this happens to a prostitute, since she isn't dead, then all good right?! :) Her job isn't dangerous, she's still alive! And they're really not paid much. Average pay for a sex scene in porn for a woman is around $600, for the guy it's like a hundred. For prostitution you're looking at a hundred to two hundred dollars. \nAlso, if you're in the us. Good luck affording health insurance as an independent contractor engaged in sex work.",
">\n\nI’m not exactly impressed with the American system so if you’re criticising Americans health system then fuck yeah more power to you.\nYou raise fantastic points about there being non lethal dangers in sex work that are worth considering and harder to measure.\nThat being said, sit for a while and think about whether you think that sex workers are in a job so dangerous that it deserves its own category and shouldn’t even be allowed. (This is what the commenter I was responding to was claiming)\nI’m comfortable I’d ban lumberjack as a profession long before I considered banning prostitution based on relative level of danger and conditions.\nI don’t have a specific statistic but soldiers at an educated guess would probably be more likely to experience danger and mental issues but the commenter I responded to probably never thought for one second about banning soldiers on that basis.\nIt’s clear bias, being rationalised as something it isn’t.",
">\n\nIt's decriminalised where I live, which means women can arrange anything themselves. So you can have a strip club with a \"hotel\" above it. Basically 100% of the workers are foreign, from places like Ukraine. Russia, Moldova, Romania. Etc. It's a strange aspect which isn't often brought up. But\"legalizing \" almost always results on foreign workers undercutting any local workforce. How can a 26 year old American girl from the burbs compete with an 18 year Thai girl? One is fine doing work at basically the rates of a full time McDonald's employee, while the other isn't. And of course, that breeds the type of people you'd imagine running the business. Even in places like Amsterdam, where there's tons of regulation, you get the same trafficking you see anywhere else.\nSo morally. I've got zero problem. But I've just never seen a model that can actually ensure safety for everyone involved.",
">\n\nWell culture is everything isn't it? Of there wasn't so much sex tourism from places that have prostitution illegal there would probably be less demand wouldn't there? Less demand would make the whole industry safer imo due to the loss of money driving the search for foreign market girls\nLike imagine the whole world has a brothel just down the block. Does that make it more safe just by sheer volume and normality?",
">\n\nFirstly, i'm not religious, i'm sex-positive and the sex lives of strangers rarely concerns me. I don't think paying for these services makes you a \"bad\" person, nor a \"disgusting\" one.. but for me, it would affect your desirability to me as a partner. To me attraction is a big thing, and i'll be honest, I see it as kind of lame. Not morally corrupt but just ...desperate. \nI would want my partner to be someone that women wanted to have sex with, not the man that they had sex with as a purely profitable transaction. Whilst it's consensual, when you involve money or a benefit other than sex, the line slightly blurs, and I find it becomes icky. \nIt's not even that I think my partner should only have had strictly intimate and personable relations... but the question does spring to mind of \"is sex that has been paid for truly consensual? can you guarantee that?\" Even popular Pornstars who previously agreed to do porn and made careers out of it have stories where they later felt disgusted by what they've had to do but were so enamored by the money, they went through with it. Sex workers will ALWAYS sell a positive image to their clients, part of their job is to make you feel desired, but you never truly know the reality. \nAll in all, it can be seen as \"bad\" or \"disgusting\" because monetary rewards affects the lines of purely consensual sex. The same way it can be icky for a boss to have sex with the intern, the same way directors have sex with actresses that want to star in their movies, and the same way rockstars have sex with their fans. Doesn't make 'em rapists, but it's why people won't look at it as respectable.",
">\n\nyou aren’t sex positive if you think paying for sex is desperate.\ndoes paying for alcohol mean you’re desperate for happiness? some people want to have fun so they buy drinks, others find more fun in sex. as long as sex work is consensual and not the result of pimping or some other form of coercion then I don’t see any harm or how it would be desperate.\nthere are tangible benefits to buying sex vs finding it “naturally” that i don’t think you’re considering. \nwith sex workers you’re safer and don’t have to worry about pregnancy, theft, psychotic women, and other risks that come from random hookups with strangers or even casual dating. there’s also the whole “i don’t need to put time and effort into finding and flirting with someone” when it can be on demand. yea making food at home is usually cheaper and better tasting than takeout but sometimes you’re lazy and want a pizza delivered.",
">\n\nI’m generally sex positive to consensual sex between people. However, everything falls on a spectrum and I don’t think you have to have a certain view on every avenue to be as such. Much like you can love your job, your country or your friends but that doesn’t mean you can’t provide any forms of criticism nor must you love EVERY aspect of these things. \nI have no disdain for people who hook up on dating apps, clubs, attend sex parties etc. I will always believe sex workers should have right to practice and do so in a safe environment. I also wouldn’t stop their client base either, it’s not my business, but there are ethical implications and I’ve said my view from the perspective of my partner which naturally i hold to a more personable standard. I wouldn’t want to be with someone who puts their sexual desires above the possible implications involved in sex work. \nI do want to touch on your point that as long as it’s not coerced or forced, it’s okay. The ethical implication behind this is that when you involve money, this is not guaranteed. Not all clients will take the time to research the background and extra people involved behind the scenes. The women with pimps and who are trafficked won’t spill those beans to you. Again, there will always be exceptions to the rule. \nI understand that sex work is convenient to many but my perception is not swayed by the mere idea that paying for sex means you get to avoid having to flirt with women. Much like I can understand why people have no choice to purchase fast fashion and I’ll understand the reasoning but that does not mean I should ignore the child labour and poor conditions that make this possible. \nAll in all, I won’t stop you but I’m going to think it’s kinda lame. You can wear an item of clothing, I’ll defend you to wear that clothing and I won’t make you feel bad for wearing it.. but I may not like it myself.",
">\n\nReading your posts made me think of a bird preening it's feathers to attract a mate. I thought it was just you being obtuse untill you brought fashion into this lol\nYou really are just a pair of eyes arnt you. No complexity attached. \"I saw it in the window so I bought it! I didn't even care that it was 500$ I just wanted it because the other girls were eyeing it down and I just HAD to have it💅\"",
">\n\nI genuinely have no idea what you’re trying to convey. The topic of fashion was merely to represent that there are often complexities and nuance. So yes, I can be sex positive but I don’t necessarily have to agree with all the variances within the to topic of sex. \nI assume I’ve hit a nerve for your style of response.",
">\n\nNot sure about everywhere else but in America being as prostitution is illegal a lot of the situations the workers are in are really sad, depressing and predatory. If you take a look at the book “Pimp” by ice berg slim for example a lot of the industry isn’t the ideal some just wants to make money like any other job and the pimp is just a bodyguard/manger,\nA lot of it involves a tone of manipulation and dependency and when you add on the ones where safe sex isn’t a priority and the literal hundreds of partners you engage with in such a short time it all comes off as kinda gross.",
">\n\nSex, when a service, is not the same as any other service. There is a difference between driving a person somewhere in a taxi and having your face fucked and ejaculated on by a stranger. As many have stated before and as you can see in 99% of porn is that sex as a service is usually degrading towards women. Just look at the front page of any given porn site. Most of it is not, in any way, esteeming of the women participating. Look at goddamn blowjob videos. The women are not giving a blowjob - they are getting their face fucked. Extra points if they have to gag and be obviously physically uncomfortable and struggling to breathe. Dude it is just not the same as someone operating a forklift or making flower arrangements. Most of it is degrading and the more degrading the more klicks - the more people who frequent porn sites like it. And it's the same with prostitution. Read about what these women have experienced. It is plain awful. Sure if you are talking about a utopia where you can be 100% sure the prostitutes are there on their own terms and if every single customer is a loving, caring, gentle person taking care of the sex workers needs as much as their own - then yes, there would not be anything wrong with it. But that is just not how it is.\nHow hard is it, even in a healthy loving relationship, to always have both partners perfectly satisfied and met their needs sexually?\nSex is as intimate as human interaction can get and buying that from someone is taking all incentive away to treat the other person as good as you would treat a partner who you love and/or actively want to enjoy the time with you.\nAnd that is what disgusts people about people who frequent prostitutes. The possibility of being a person who, as long as they pay for something or feel like they've done their dues, doesn't give a shit about what the person on the other end is experiencing.\nedit: Because of other comments from OP I accused them of debating rather than discussing and suggested if they were seeking moral validation for what they do, which in itself was not part of a discussion really. I deleted that part because it serves no neutral purpose.",
">\n\nWell in this context not special but very very different, in the way that it is way more intimate, there's actually a part of ones body entering the others. There is exchange of bodily fluids. Those services are different from each other the same way as a massage is different to shoving items across a scanner, just times ten. One is naked, one experiences pleasure (or great pain) and one is not using their body to do something, they are having their body be used by someone else. That can leave physical bruises and mental scars because one is extremely vulnerable in the act.",
">\n\nMy view on it is that the act in itself is not wrong for anybody involved, but the character implication is what causes it to be met with disgust by some.\nIf you have money and you pay for sex from somebody who is willing, then it's no problem, but the issue comes when you delve into why they might be paying for sex.\nMany people experience sex in a consensual environment with a person who desires sex with them, and no money is involved. Many would view this as a very normal and important part of life.\nThe question that comes up subconsciously and/or consciously is \"why does this person need to pay for sex?\"\nIt could be that they have undeveloped social skills and this coild be deemed as a negative trait that needs to be worked on.\nAnother reason could be an atypically high sex drive, which could also be perceived as sex addiction.\nThese are not unlikely reasons for a person to pay a sex worker for sex and a judgement could be made before understanding more that they possess These sorts of traits that people simply have the desire to avoid.",
">\n\nThis is the correct answer. \nThe reason people look down on people who hire hookers has nothing to do with sex trafficking, or what really qualifies as consent, or any of the other comments in this thread. I think a good example is your iPhone. It is basically made with slave labor, but nobody really gives a shit. They just happily use their phone. If they actually did give a shit, they wouldn't buy iPhones. Also, prostitution has been around basically since the beginning of time. It has always been a part of human relationships and always will be.\nFor better or worse, the reason people look down on people who hire hookers is that it implies you are deficient in some way. If you were better looking or had better social skills or had more control over your base urges you would not need to hire a hooker. \nPersonally, I look at it like a wheelchair. I dont need a wheelchair and I really hope I never need one, but it is not fair (and downright cruel) for me to look down on someone who does use one. Are they deficient in some way? Yes. They can't walk. Do they deserve admonishment or judgement? No. Not at all."
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Just like almost every other Job, and any other form of sex work like strippers, onlyfans model , some e girl, girls who post theist traps on social media, so what makes those empowering and not this
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"/u/Due-Lie-8710 (OP) has awarded 7 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nThere's a song I like that speaks on this fairly poetically, so I'd like to start by just directly quoting it:\n\nSo when you bled on the bed as you fed those expectations, as a whore and not a human, you embraced with hesitation the very parameters of all you can be. Not a mother, not an aunt, not a sister who's not subdued. Because dignity's not physical, and your flesh means more than you.\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.",
">\n\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.\n\nFirst of all if you aren't trafficked it is just like another job, as for you both being seen as human , make sense hey aren't there to befriend to have sex , you are performing a service, it's like you watching football or a movie, you only see them as footballers ot actors , half of the time they don't care about their personal life, there are some jobs that prevent you from getting any high paying jobs or jobs that involve care , as for the people purchasing it , if you can't purchase it then why should they sell it , you don't actually support sex work, because that would mean accepting the consumer base ad well as the supplier",
">\n\nThat’s a really big if though, sex work isn’t exactly an industry where you will know for sure if the service you’re getting is consensual. individuals who are victims of sexual trafficking, coercion, or just life circumstance aren’t likely to just tell their “customers” if it isn’t consensual. they could endanger themselves or not be aware that they can say something. \nSeeing someone as an object vs seeing them as an individual with a job aren’t the same though? yes we recognize actors and football players by their career choice and how well they are at it, but they’re still people at the end of the day? that’s why they have fanbases, interviews, paparazzi, popularity on social media, movie adaptions of their life exist—people are interested in more than them just doing their job.\nA persons job is no reason to suddenly strip them of their humanity and rights granted them for being such, that kind of mentality is morally skewed and why a lot of people would not support sex work. plus you can’t say it makes sense for sex workers to be see as commodities only and then believe sex work will be consensual. the whole consent part comes from recognizing that this is another person who has their own boundaries and limits beyond just what you want.",
">\n\nokay, that’s a plumber and not a person you’re having sex with. unlike plumbing which is clean cut, sex can include multiple aspects of different kinks and fetishes. You can’t expect a sex worker to be okay with say participating in rape play, anal, scat, and a mirage of other kinks simply because they agreed to sex. Sex is not clean cut, there is more to it. There has to be a boundary somewhere, this is another person body not a pipe.",
">\n\nThat’s like the point? recognizing the boundary and proceeding from there by RESPECTING the boundary because they are another person and not some masturbatory object. What you just said was a consensual interaction. The initial point was that there is no consensual sex without respecting the party that’s giving as a person.",
">\n\nSo... there's a concept of a moral hazard. \nThere's literally no way for an individual to be certain that their prostitute is not being coerced/trafficked. Even if there are some special circumstances where it might be unlikely, certainty is still impossible, and most people frequenting prostitutes are not in those special circumstances.\nSomeone using their services is therefore extremely likely to be comfortable with risking that they are unknowingly raping someone. \nGenerally speaking, people find that disgusting.",
">\n\nIf you eat chocolate (even the stuff with the fair trade sticker) then there's no guarantee that it hasn't come from slave farms which are not uncommon. If you eat chocolate throughout your life then you are almost definitely contributing to slavery. If you visit a prostitute regularly then the chance they're being exploited is anywhere from functioninally 0% to 100%. So why treat the John who might be discerning with scorn and not the chocolate eater who is a much safer bet in having contributed to coerced labour.",
">\n\nIt's worth trying to avoid those situations, but ultimately it's a very false equivalence to hold people responsible for the actions of others, vs. their own personal actions.\nWhen you buy chocolate, you're not actually holding a gun to a slave, someone else is. The right answer to that is to lobby for worker protections for imported goods, and to try to end involuntary servitude within your country as well. \nWhen you have sex with a trafficked person, you personally literally raped them. If you don't have good evidence to know they aren't trafficked, you're personally ok with the possibility you're going to personally rape them. \nBoth might be considered bad. But it's a false equivalence.\nAnd sure... if someone is paying someone for sex when they are personal friends with them, and interact with them outside of prostitution enough to personally know that they aren't being trafficked... and you're sure they aren't lying, scorning them more than at most some light ribbing isn't justified. It's not like \"sugar daddies\" aren't a thing as well. At the very least much less disapprobation would be appropriate.",
">\n\nIn both cases, there is a customer receiving a service provided by a potentially enslaved person. They are morally equivalent. It makes no sense to say “sure I bought the slavery chocolate, but you can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”",
">\n\n\nyou can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”\n\nThe slavers actions are distinct from the consumers' actions for most things. \nThis is an actual important difference when it comes to prostitution. \nIgnoring that fundamental difference doesn't make it go away, and it's entirely reasonable for someone to make that distinction.",
">\n\nThe slaver and consumer are different people who take different actions in the prostitution scenario. The consumer in both scenarios is taking the risk of being immoral. If I force you to be my slave that’s still immoral whether or not I put you to work in my brothel or mine or factory or fishing boat. And if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever, it’s equivalent.",
">\n\n\nAnd if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever , it’s equivalent.\n\nThis is where the false equivalence comes in. \nSomeone making products with slave labor is not renting out a slave to the consumer so that they consumer can force them to perform mining for the consumer. They are enslaving the labor to create a product, and selling the product. Products don't have rights to violate. The only person violating the rights of the slave is the slaver.\nSomeone trafficking a victim is renting out that victim so that the consumer can rape them.",
">\n\nIf the sex is only contractual to you? Why not just \"hook up.\" Why pay? You will never be able to guarantee they are not being trafficked. If they are, they are not going to tell you. I think the idea of money exchanging hands for sex is the why most have a problem. The idea that you are giving a woman money for sex has been historically seen as her being a whore. \nI am not saying she is. I am saying that from the time it first exchanged hands, that is what it was. Men who could not find a woman, paid a woman. Why do you want others to see it differently? Yes, there will be outliers that will enjoy the work. But those are going to be ones that, like the escort, chose it, and charge what they want. Not the typical street hookers on the corner with pimps to pay. \nProve they are not trafficked, they work for themselves, they are clean (of both drugs and diseases - because they are taking care of themselves and being safe), and that they are a sex worker because they enjoy the work or that that chose the work. Then, hey! Pay 'em and get to it!",
">\n\nI think it is morally unhealthy to normalize it. Even though you have to be an adult to smoke weed, we definitely see weed as a normal thing to do in moderation compared to a few decades ago. This is how we would see prostitution if it was normalized. And I think weed has a lot less complications than legalizing prostitution. A LOT!\nSex work online is a lot safer and requires a lot less mental issues to engage in and promote. But even then, I know some sex workers (online type), and they are scarred by the stuff they have seen when it comes to their job. They have told me stories that are extremely disturbing. These are women who just do stuff by themselves. Not working with a porn company and other people.\nAlso, sex has a huge reputation for being violent and demoralizing towards women in general. I'd assume those numbers would be much higher in men looking to pay for sex. You'd have to have extremely strict and tight regulations for this sort of thing, which would take the fun out of it for a lot of people. And even then, there would still be many mistakes that would happen before we find out all the regulations that are needed. And I don't think we could ever make it mentally and physically safe for women.\nNow, do I think it should be decriminalized for prostitutes? Definitely. I don't see them as disgusting. I feel quite bad for them. Most of them were trafficked at a young age. Do I see men wanting to pay for sex as disgusting? Not necessarily. It depends on the person and the situation. However, this isn't a simple issue where if we just \"stop judging people,\" everything will be fine.",
">\n\nDecriminalizing prostitution for both those selling and buying is demonstrably safer for prostitutes. If it is criminal for the buyer but not the seller, the buyer is often highly defensive and paranoid about the seller, specifically the possibility that they may be working with law enforcement. The buyer will often push to do it in a highly isolated setting as well. These things increase violence that sex workers face, and the averages go down in places where it is decriminalized to both buy and sell. If you have a designated work place for it and no one needs to be distrustful and worried about being arrested, that is the safest situation for all involved. \nWe may disagree with buying it for whatever moral reason, but if we choose to criminalize the purchase of it, we are prioritizing punishing behavior we morally disagree with over prioritizing the safety of those involved, which I can't get behind.",
">\n\nBut there are so many more facets to the safety of legalizing it for the buyer other than them being pushy or wanting to do it in a hidden area. If we legalized it, it still wouldn't really help any of the points I made or is even something that is so overwhelmingly an issue compared to the points I made.",
">\n\nSo long as we have to work to live, all jobs are coercive, even sex work. I’m skeptical that there can ever be a consensual exchange within our current economic context.",
">\n\nExactly , I get sex is intimate but if you are willing to view sex work as any other job , you should be willing to treat it as such",
">\n\nSex work has certain occupational hazards that cannot be regulated away. OSHA (in the US) dictates that a person cannot be subject to bodily fluids without proper PPE in the workplace, and often johns just need to pay more to not wear a condom. Imagine a construction site paying workers more to not wear a hard hat. The greater potential for bodily harm is intrinsic to the work, and it will always be unsafe.",
">\n\nTrue but this doesn't really answer my question",
">\n\nMy point is that treating it like any other job is not ethically possible due to hazardous conditions",
">\n\nThis is a bad take.\nI’d wager prostitution doesn’t even rank in the top ten dangerous jobs by capita.",
">\n\nThat really depends. A gas station cashier likely has a higher risk of being killed. But a quick Google shows sex workers are thirty times more likely to get Aids than the general population. They're also at ridiculously high rates of risk to their mental health. Ptsd is common. Also, yes, sitting at a counter in a gas station is technically dangerous. But it is different type of danger compared to someone fucking them in the ass while shoving a sock in their mouth and calling them a dirty whore. When this happens to a prostitute, since she isn't dead, then all good right?! :) Her job isn't dangerous, she's still alive! And they're really not paid much. Average pay for a sex scene in porn for a woman is around $600, for the guy it's like a hundred. For prostitution you're looking at a hundred to two hundred dollars. \nAlso, if you're in the us. Good luck affording health insurance as an independent contractor engaged in sex work.",
">\n\nI’m not exactly impressed with the American system so if you’re criticising Americans health system then fuck yeah more power to you.\nYou raise fantastic points about there being non lethal dangers in sex work that are worth considering and harder to measure.\nThat being said, sit for a while and think about whether you think that sex workers are in a job so dangerous that it deserves its own category and shouldn’t even be allowed. (This is what the commenter I was responding to was claiming)\nI’m comfortable I’d ban lumberjack as a profession long before I considered banning prostitution based on relative level of danger and conditions.\nI don’t have a specific statistic but soldiers at an educated guess would probably be more likely to experience danger and mental issues but the commenter I responded to probably never thought for one second about banning soldiers on that basis.\nIt’s clear bias, being rationalised as something it isn’t.",
">\n\nIt's decriminalised where I live, which means women can arrange anything themselves. So you can have a strip club with a \"hotel\" above it. Basically 100% of the workers are foreign, from places like Ukraine. Russia, Moldova, Romania. Etc. It's a strange aspect which isn't often brought up. But\"legalizing \" almost always results on foreign workers undercutting any local workforce. How can a 26 year old American girl from the burbs compete with an 18 year Thai girl? One is fine doing work at basically the rates of a full time McDonald's employee, while the other isn't. And of course, that breeds the type of people you'd imagine running the business. Even in places like Amsterdam, where there's tons of regulation, you get the same trafficking you see anywhere else.\nSo morally. I've got zero problem. But I've just never seen a model that can actually ensure safety for everyone involved.",
">\n\nWell culture is everything isn't it? Of there wasn't so much sex tourism from places that have prostitution illegal there would probably be less demand wouldn't there? Less demand would make the whole industry safer imo due to the loss of money driving the search for foreign market girls\nLike imagine the whole world has a brothel just down the block. Does that make it more safe just by sheer volume and normality?",
">\n\nFirstly, i'm not religious, i'm sex-positive and the sex lives of strangers rarely concerns me. I don't think paying for these services makes you a \"bad\" person, nor a \"disgusting\" one.. but for me, it would affect your desirability to me as a partner. To me attraction is a big thing, and i'll be honest, I see it as kind of lame. Not morally corrupt but just ...desperate. \nI would want my partner to be someone that women wanted to have sex with, not the man that they had sex with as a purely profitable transaction. Whilst it's consensual, when you involve money or a benefit other than sex, the line slightly blurs, and I find it becomes icky. \nIt's not even that I think my partner should only have had strictly intimate and personable relations... but the question does spring to mind of \"is sex that has been paid for truly consensual? can you guarantee that?\" Even popular Pornstars who previously agreed to do porn and made careers out of it have stories where they later felt disgusted by what they've had to do but were so enamored by the money, they went through with it. Sex workers will ALWAYS sell a positive image to their clients, part of their job is to make you feel desired, but you never truly know the reality. \nAll in all, it can be seen as \"bad\" or \"disgusting\" because monetary rewards affects the lines of purely consensual sex. The same way it can be icky for a boss to have sex with the intern, the same way directors have sex with actresses that want to star in their movies, and the same way rockstars have sex with their fans. Doesn't make 'em rapists, but it's why people won't look at it as respectable.",
">\n\nyou aren’t sex positive if you think paying for sex is desperate.\ndoes paying for alcohol mean you’re desperate for happiness? some people want to have fun so they buy drinks, others find more fun in sex. as long as sex work is consensual and not the result of pimping or some other form of coercion then I don’t see any harm or how it would be desperate.\nthere are tangible benefits to buying sex vs finding it “naturally” that i don’t think you’re considering. \nwith sex workers you’re safer and don’t have to worry about pregnancy, theft, psychotic women, and other risks that come from random hookups with strangers or even casual dating. there’s also the whole “i don’t need to put time and effort into finding and flirting with someone” when it can be on demand. yea making food at home is usually cheaper and better tasting than takeout but sometimes you’re lazy and want a pizza delivered.",
">\n\nI’m generally sex positive to consensual sex between people. However, everything falls on a spectrum and I don’t think you have to have a certain view on every avenue to be as such. Much like you can love your job, your country or your friends but that doesn’t mean you can’t provide any forms of criticism nor must you love EVERY aspect of these things. \nI have no disdain for people who hook up on dating apps, clubs, attend sex parties etc. I will always believe sex workers should have right to practice and do so in a safe environment. I also wouldn’t stop their client base either, it’s not my business, but there are ethical implications and I’ve said my view from the perspective of my partner which naturally i hold to a more personable standard. I wouldn’t want to be with someone who puts their sexual desires above the possible implications involved in sex work. \nI do want to touch on your point that as long as it’s not coerced or forced, it’s okay. The ethical implication behind this is that when you involve money, this is not guaranteed. Not all clients will take the time to research the background and extra people involved behind the scenes. The women with pimps and who are trafficked won’t spill those beans to you. Again, there will always be exceptions to the rule. \nI understand that sex work is convenient to many but my perception is not swayed by the mere idea that paying for sex means you get to avoid having to flirt with women. Much like I can understand why people have no choice to purchase fast fashion and I’ll understand the reasoning but that does not mean I should ignore the child labour and poor conditions that make this possible. \nAll in all, I won’t stop you but I’m going to think it’s kinda lame. You can wear an item of clothing, I’ll defend you to wear that clothing and I won’t make you feel bad for wearing it.. but I may not like it myself.",
">\n\nReading your posts made me think of a bird preening it's feathers to attract a mate. I thought it was just you being obtuse untill you brought fashion into this lol\nYou really are just a pair of eyes arnt you. No complexity attached. \"I saw it in the window so I bought it! I didn't even care that it was 500$ I just wanted it because the other girls were eyeing it down and I just HAD to have it💅\"",
">\n\nI genuinely have no idea what you’re trying to convey. The topic of fashion was merely to represent that there are often complexities and nuance. So yes, I can be sex positive but I don’t necessarily have to agree with all the variances within the to topic of sex. \nI assume I’ve hit a nerve for your style of response.",
">\n\nNot sure about everywhere else but in America being as prostitution is illegal a lot of the situations the workers are in are really sad, depressing and predatory. If you take a look at the book “Pimp” by ice berg slim for example a lot of the industry isn’t the ideal some just wants to make money like any other job and the pimp is just a bodyguard/manger,\nA lot of it involves a tone of manipulation and dependency and when you add on the ones where safe sex isn’t a priority and the literal hundreds of partners you engage with in such a short time it all comes off as kinda gross.",
">\n\nSex, when a service, is not the same as any other service. There is a difference between driving a person somewhere in a taxi and having your face fucked and ejaculated on by a stranger. As many have stated before and as you can see in 99% of porn is that sex as a service is usually degrading towards women. Just look at the front page of any given porn site. Most of it is not, in any way, esteeming of the women participating. Look at goddamn blowjob videos. The women are not giving a blowjob - they are getting their face fucked. Extra points if they have to gag and be obviously physically uncomfortable and struggling to breathe. Dude it is just not the same as someone operating a forklift or making flower arrangements. Most of it is degrading and the more degrading the more klicks - the more people who frequent porn sites like it. And it's the same with prostitution. Read about what these women have experienced. It is plain awful. Sure if you are talking about a utopia where you can be 100% sure the prostitutes are there on their own terms and if every single customer is a loving, caring, gentle person taking care of the sex workers needs as much as their own - then yes, there would not be anything wrong with it. But that is just not how it is.\nHow hard is it, even in a healthy loving relationship, to always have both partners perfectly satisfied and met their needs sexually?\nSex is as intimate as human interaction can get and buying that from someone is taking all incentive away to treat the other person as good as you would treat a partner who you love and/or actively want to enjoy the time with you.\nAnd that is what disgusts people about people who frequent prostitutes. The possibility of being a person who, as long as they pay for something or feel like they've done their dues, doesn't give a shit about what the person on the other end is experiencing.\nedit: Because of other comments from OP I accused them of debating rather than discussing and suggested if they were seeking moral validation for what they do, which in itself was not part of a discussion really. I deleted that part because it serves no neutral purpose.",
">\n\nWell in this context not special but very very different, in the way that it is way more intimate, there's actually a part of ones body entering the others. There is exchange of bodily fluids. Those services are different from each other the same way as a massage is different to shoving items across a scanner, just times ten. One is naked, one experiences pleasure (or great pain) and one is not using their body to do something, they are having their body be used by someone else. That can leave physical bruises and mental scars because one is extremely vulnerable in the act.",
">\n\nMy view on it is that the act in itself is not wrong for anybody involved, but the character implication is what causes it to be met with disgust by some.\nIf you have money and you pay for sex from somebody who is willing, then it's no problem, but the issue comes when you delve into why they might be paying for sex.\nMany people experience sex in a consensual environment with a person who desires sex with them, and no money is involved. Many would view this as a very normal and important part of life.\nThe question that comes up subconsciously and/or consciously is \"why does this person need to pay for sex?\"\nIt could be that they have undeveloped social skills and this coild be deemed as a negative trait that needs to be worked on.\nAnother reason could be an atypically high sex drive, which could also be perceived as sex addiction.\nThese are not unlikely reasons for a person to pay a sex worker for sex and a judgement could be made before understanding more that they possess These sorts of traits that people simply have the desire to avoid.",
">\n\nThis is the correct answer. \nThe reason people look down on people who hire hookers has nothing to do with sex trafficking, or what really qualifies as consent, or any of the other comments in this thread. I think a good example is your iPhone. It is basically made with slave labor, but nobody really gives a shit. They just happily use their phone. If they actually did give a shit, they wouldn't buy iPhones. Also, prostitution has been around basically since the beginning of time. It has always been a part of human relationships and always will be.\nFor better or worse, the reason people look down on people who hire hookers is that it implies you are deficient in some way. If you were better looking or had better social skills or had more control over your base urges you would not need to hire a hooker. \nPersonally, I look at it like a wheelchair. I dont need a wheelchair and I really hope I never need one, but it is not fair (and downright cruel) for me to look down on someone who does use one. Are they deficient in some way? Yes. They can't walk. Do they deserve admonishment or judgement? No. Not at all.",
">\n\nYou're not paying too have sex with a prostitute. You're paying to use her body as a masturbatory aid.\nProstitution reduces women to being commodities, objects, things. Every other job, you're providing a skill to produce or exchange goods and services. Prostitution, the woman is the thing you're purchasing. The women are the commodities, they're not viewed as humen, they're viewed as consumable goods."
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Strippers, only fans, e-girls are not empowering. It's gross. When it comes down to it, they're sluts. And they're no better than their fuck-boy counterparts.
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"/u/Due-Lie-8710 (OP) has awarded 7 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nThere's a song I like that speaks on this fairly poetically, so I'd like to start by just directly quoting it:\n\nSo when you bled on the bed as you fed those expectations, as a whore and not a human, you embraced with hesitation the very parameters of all you can be. Not a mother, not an aunt, not a sister who's not subdued. Because dignity's not physical, and your flesh means more than you.\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.",
">\n\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.\n\nFirst of all if you aren't trafficked it is just like another job, as for you both being seen as human , make sense hey aren't there to befriend to have sex , you are performing a service, it's like you watching football or a movie, you only see them as footballers ot actors , half of the time they don't care about their personal life, there are some jobs that prevent you from getting any high paying jobs or jobs that involve care , as for the people purchasing it , if you can't purchase it then why should they sell it , you don't actually support sex work, because that would mean accepting the consumer base ad well as the supplier",
">\n\nThat’s a really big if though, sex work isn’t exactly an industry where you will know for sure if the service you’re getting is consensual. individuals who are victims of sexual trafficking, coercion, or just life circumstance aren’t likely to just tell their “customers” if it isn’t consensual. they could endanger themselves or not be aware that they can say something. \nSeeing someone as an object vs seeing them as an individual with a job aren’t the same though? yes we recognize actors and football players by their career choice and how well they are at it, but they’re still people at the end of the day? that’s why they have fanbases, interviews, paparazzi, popularity on social media, movie adaptions of their life exist—people are interested in more than them just doing their job.\nA persons job is no reason to suddenly strip them of their humanity and rights granted them for being such, that kind of mentality is morally skewed and why a lot of people would not support sex work. plus you can’t say it makes sense for sex workers to be see as commodities only and then believe sex work will be consensual. the whole consent part comes from recognizing that this is another person who has their own boundaries and limits beyond just what you want.",
">\n\nokay, that’s a plumber and not a person you’re having sex with. unlike plumbing which is clean cut, sex can include multiple aspects of different kinks and fetishes. You can’t expect a sex worker to be okay with say participating in rape play, anal, scat, and a mirage of other kinks simply because they agreed to sex. Sex is not clean cut, there is more to it. There has to be a boundary somewhere, this is another person body not a pipe.",
">\n\nThat’s like the point? recognizing the boundary and proceeding from there by RESPECTING the boundary because they are another person and not some masturbatory object. What you just said was a consensual interaction. The initial point was that there is no consensual sex without respecting the party that’s giving as a person.",
">\n\nSo... there's a concept of a moral hazard. \nThere's literally no way for an individual to be certain that their prostitute is not being coerced/trafficked. Even if there are some special circumstances where it might be unlikely, certainty is still impossible, and most people frequenting prostitutes are not in those special circumstances.\nSomeone using their services is therefore extremely likely to be comfortable with risking that they are unknowingly raping someone. \nGenerally speaking, people find that disgusting.",
">\n\nIf you eat chocolate (even the stuff with the fair trade sticker) then there's no guarantee that it hasn't come from slave farms which are not uncommon. If you eat chocolate throughout your life then you are almost definitely contributing to slavery. If you visit a prostitute regularly then the chance they're being exploited is anywhere from functioninally 0% to 100%. So why treat the John who might be discerning with scorn and not the chocolate eater who is a much safer bet in having contributed to coerced labour.",
">\n\nIt's worth trying to avoid those situations, but ultimately it's a very false equivalence to hold people responsible for the actions of others, vs. their own personal actions.\nWhen you buy chocolate, you're not actually holding a gun to a slave, someone else is. The right answer to that is to lobby for worker protections for imported goods, and to try to end involuntary servitude within your country as well. \nWhen you have sex with a trafficked person, you personally literally raped them. If you don't have good evidence to know they aren't trafficked, you're personally ok with the possibility you're going to personally rape them. \nBoth might be considered bad. But it's a false equivalence.\nAnd sure... if someone is paying someone for sex when they are personal friends with them, and interact with them outside of prostitution enough to personally know that they aren't being trafficked... and you're sure they aren't lying, scorning them more than at most some light ribbing isn't justified. It's not like \"sugar daddies\" aren't a thing as well. At the very least much less disapprobation would be appropriate.",
">\n\nIn both cases, there is a customer receiving a service provided by a potentially enslaved person. They are morally equivalent. It makes no sense to say “sure I bought the slavery chocolate, but you can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”",
">\n\n\nyou can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”\n\nThe slavers actions are distinct from the consumers' actions for most things. \nThis is an actual important difference when it comes to prostitution. \nIgnoring that fundamental difference doesn't make it go away, and it's entirely reasonable for someone to make that distinction.",
">\n\nThe slaver and consumer are different people who take different actions in the prostitution scenario. The consumer in both scenarios is taking the risk of being immoral. If I force you to be my slave that’s still immoral whether or not I put you to work in my brothel or mine or factory or fishing boat. And if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever, it’s equivalent.",
">\n\n\nAnd if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever , it’s equivalent.\n\nThis is where the false equivalence comes in. \nSomeone making products with slave labor is not renting out a slave to the consumer so that they consumer can force them to perform mining for the consumer. They are enslaving the labor to create a product, and selling the product. Products don't have rights to violate. The only person violating the rights of the slave is the slaver.\nSomeone trafficking a victim is renting out that victim so that the consumer can rape them.",
">\n\nIf the sex is only contractual to you? Why not just \"hook up.\" Why pay? You will never be able to guarantee they are not being trafficked. If they are, they are not going to tell you. I think the idea of money exchanging hands for sex is the why most have a problem. The idea that you are giving a woman money for sex has been historically seen as her being a whore. \nI am not saying she is. I am saying that from the time it first exchanged hands, that is what it was. Men who could not find a woman, paid a woman. Why do you want others to see it differently? Yes, there will be outliers that will enjoy the work. But those are going to be ones that, like the escort, chose it, and charge what they want. Not the typical street hookers on the corner with pimps to pay. \nProve they are not trafficked, they work for themselves, they are clean (of both drugs and diseases - because they are taking care of themselves and being safe), and that they are a sex worker because they enjoy the work or that that chose the work. Then, hey! Pay 'em and get to it!",
">\n\nI think it is morally unhealthy to normalize it. Even though you have to be an adult to smoke weed, we definitely see weed as a normal thing to do in moderation compared to a few decades ago. This is how we would see prostitution if it was normalized. And I think weed has a lot less complications than legalizing prostitution. A LOT!\nSex work online is a lot safer and requires a lot less mental issues to engage in and promote. But even then, I know some sex workers (online type), and they are scarred by the stuff they have seen when it comes to their job. They have told me stories that are extremely disturbing. These are women who just do stuff by themselves. Not working with a porn company and other people.\nAlso, sex has a huge reputation for being violent and demoralizing towards women in general. I'd assume those numbers would be much higher in men looking to pay for sex. You'd have to have extremely strict and tight regulations for this sort of thing, which would take the fun out of it for a lot of people. And even then, there would still be many mistakes that would happen before we find out all the regulations that are needed. And I don't think we could ever make it mentally and physically safe for women.\nNow, do I think it should be decriminalized for prostitutes? Definitely. I don't see them as disgusting. I feel quite bad for them. Most of them were trafficked at a young age. Do I see men wanting to pay for sex as disgusting? Not necessarily. It depends on the person and the situation. However, this isn't a simple issue where if we just \"stop judging people,\" everything will be fine.",
">\n\nDecriminalizing prostitution for both those selling and buying is demonstrably safer for prostitutes. If it is criminal for the buyer but not the seller, the buyer is often highly defensive and paranoid about the seller, specifically the possibility that they may be working with law enforcement. The buyer will often push to do it in a highly isolated setting as well. These things increase violence that sex workers face, and the averages go down in places where it is decriminalized to both buy and sell. If you have a designated work place for it and no one needs to be distrustful and worried about being arrested, that is the safest situation for all involved. \nWe may disagree with buying it for whatever moral reason, but if we choose to criminalize the purchase of it, we are prioritizing punishing behavior we morally disagree with over prioritizing the safety of those involved, which I can't get behind.",
">\n\nBut there are so many more facets to the safety of legalizing it for the buyer other than them being pushy or wanting to do it in a hidden area. If we legalized it, it still wouldn't really help any of the points I made or is even something that is so overwhelmingly an issue compared to the points I made.",
">\n\nSo long as we have to work to live, all jobs are coercive, even sex work. I’m skeptical that there can ever be a consensual exchange within our current economic context.",
">\n\nExactly , I get sex is intimate but if you are willing to view sex work as any other job , you should be willing to treat it as such",
">\n\nSex work has certain occupational hazards that cannot be regulated away. OSHA (in the US) dictates that a person cannot be subject to bodily fluids without proper PPE in the workplace, and often johns just need to pay more to not wear a condom. Imagine a construction site paying workers more to not wear a hard hat. The greater potential for bodily harm is intrinsic to the work, and it will always be unsafe.",
">\n\nTrue but this doesn't really answer my question",
">\n\nMy point is that treating it like any other job is not ethically possible due to hazardous conditions",
">\n\nThis is a bad take.\nI’d wager prostitution doesn’t even rank in the top ten dangerous jobs by capita.",
">\n\nThat really depends. A gas station cashier likely has a higher risk of being killed. But a quick Google shows sex workers are thirty times more likely to get Aids than the general population. They're also at ridiculously high rates of risk to their mental health. Ptsd is common. Also, yes, sitting at a counter in a gas station is technically dangerous. But it is different type of danger compared to someone fucking them in the ass while shoving a sock in their mouth and calling them a dirty whore. When this happens to a prostitute, since she isn't dead, then all good right?! :) Her job isn't dangerous, she's still alive! And they're really not paid much. Average pay for a sex scene in porn for a woman is around $600, for the guy it's like a hundred. For prostitution you're looking at a hundred to two hundred dollars. \nAlso, if you're in the us. Good luck affording health insurance as an independent contractor engaged in sex work.",
">\n\nI’m not exactly impressed with the American system so if you’re criticising Americans health system then fuck yeah more power to you.\nYou raise fantastic points about there being non lethal dangers in sex work that are worth considering and harder to measure.\nThat being said, sit for a while and think about whether you think that sex workers are in a job so dangerous that it deserves its own category and shouldn’t even be allowed. (This is what the commenter I was responding to was claiming)\nI’m comfortable I’d ban lumberjack as a profession long before I considered banning prostitution based on relative level of danger and conditions.\nI don’t have a specific statistic but soldiers at an educated guess would probably be more likely to experience danger and mental issues but the commenter I responded to probably never thought for one second about banning soldiers on that basis.\nIt’s clear bias, being rationalised as something it isn’t.",
">\n\nIt's decriminalised where I live, which means women can arrange anything themselves. So you can have a strip club with a \"hotel\" above it. Basically 100% of the workers are foreign, from places like Ukraine. Russia, Moldova, Romania. Etc. It's a strange aspect which isn't often brought up. But\"legalizing \" almost always results on foreign workers undercutting any local workforce. How can a 26 year old American girl from the burbs compete with an 18 year Thai girl? One is fine doing work at basically the rates of a full time McDonald's employee, while the other isn't. And of course, that breeds the type of people you'd imagine running the business. Even in places like Amsterdam, where there's tons of regulation, you get the same trafficking you see anywhere else.\nSo morally. I've got zero problem. But I've just never seen a model that can actually ensure safety for everyone involved.",
">\n\nWell culture is everything isn't it? Of there wasn't so much sex tourism from places that have prostitution illegal there would probably be less demand wouldn't there? Less demand would make the whole industry safer imo due to the loss of money driving the search for foreign market girls\nLike imagine the whole world has a brothel just down the block. Does that make it more safe just by sheer volume and normality?",
">\n\nFirstly, i'm not religious, i'm sex-positive and the sex lives of strangers rarely concerns me. I don't think paying for these services makes you a \"bad\" person, nor a \"disgusting\" one.. but for me, it would affect your desirability to me as a partner. To me attraction is a big thing, and i'll be honest, I see it as kind of lame. Not morally corrupt but just ...desperate. \nI would want my partner to be someone that women wanted to have sex with, not the man that they had sex with as a purely profitable transaction. Whilst it's consensual, when you involve money or a benefit other than sex, the line slightly blurs, and I find it becomes icky. \nIt's not even that I think my partner should only have had strictly intimate and personable relations... but the question does spring to mind of \"is sex that has been paid for truly consensual? can you guarantee that?\" Even popular Pornstars who previously agreed to do porn and made careers out of it have stories where they later felt disgusted by what they've had to do but were so enamored by the money, they went through with it. Sex workers will ALWAYS sell a positive image to their clients, part of their job is to make you feel desired, but you never truly know the reality. \nAll in all, it can be seen as \"bad\" or \"disgusting\" because monetary rewards affects the lines of purely consensual sex. The same way it can be icky for a boss to have sex with the intern, the same way directors have sex with actresses that want to star in their movies, and the same way rockstars have sex with their fans. Doesn't make 'em rapists, but it's why people won't look at it as respectable.",
">\n\nyou aren’t sex positive if you think paying for sex is desperate.\ndoes paying for alcohol mean you’re desperate for happiness? some people want to have fun so they buy drinks, others find more fun in sex. as long as sex work is consensual and not the result of pimping or some other form of coercion then I don’t see any harm or how it would be desperate.\nthere are tangible benefits to buying sex vs finding it “naturally” that i don’t think you’re considering. \nwith sex workers you’re safer and don’t have to worry about pregnancy, theft, psychotic women, and other risks that come from random hookups with strangers or even casual dating. there’s also the whole “i don’t need to put time and effort into finding and flirting with someone” when it can be on demand. yea making food at home is usually cheaper and better tasting than takeout but sometimes you’re lazy and want a pizza delivered.",
">\n\nI’m generally sex positive to consensual sex between people. However, everything falls on a spectrum and I don’t think you have to have a certain view on every avenue to be as such. Much like you can love your job, your country or your friends but that doesn’t mean you can’t provide any forms of criticism nor must you love EVERY aspect of these things. \nI have no disdain for people who hook up on dating apps, clubs, attend sex parties etc. I will always believe sex workers should have right to practice and do so in a safe environment. I also wouldn’t stop their client base either, it’s not my business, but there are ethical implications and I’ve said my view from the perspective of my partner which naturally i hold to a more personable standard. I wouldn’t want to be with someone who puts their sexual desires above the possible implications involved in sex work. \nI do want to touch on your point that as long as it’s not coerced or forced, it’s okay. The ethical implication behind this is that when you involve money, this is not guaranteed. Not all clients will take the time to research the background and extra people involved behind the scenes. The women with pimps and who are trafficked won’t spill those beans to you. Again, there will always be exceptions to the rule. \nI understand that sex work is convenient to many but my perception is not swayed by the mere idea that paying for sex means you get to avoid having to flirt with women. Much like I can understand why people have no choice to purchase fast fashion and I’ll understand the reasoning but that does not mean I should ignore the child labour and poor conditions that make this possible. \nAll in all, I won’t stop you but I’m going to think it’s kinda lame. You can wear an item of clothing, I’ll defend you to wear that clothing and I won’t make you feel bad for wearing it.. but I may not like it myself.",
">\n\nReading your posts made me think of a bird preening it's feathers to attract a mate. I thought it was just you being obtuse untill you brought fashion into this lol\nYou really are just a pair of eyes arnt you. No complexity attached. \"I saw it in the window so I bought it! I didn't even care that it was 500$ I just wanted it because the other girls were eyeing it down and I just HAD to have it💅\"",
">\n\nI genuinely have no idea what you’re trying to convey. The topic of fashion was merely to represent that there are often complexities and nuance. So yes, I can be sex positive but I don’t necessarily have to agree with all the variances within the to topic of sex. \nI assume I’ve hit a nerve for your style of response.",
">\n\nNot sure about everywhere else but in America being as prostitution is illegal a lot of the situations the workers are in are really sad, depressing and predatory. If you take a look at the book “Pimp” by ice berg slim for example a lot of the industry isn’t the ideal some just wants to make money like any other job and the pimp is just a bodyguard/manger,\nA lot of it involves a tone of manipulation and dependency and when you add on the ones where safe sex isn’t a priority and the literal hundreds of partners you engage with in such a short time it all comes off as kinda gross.",
">\n\nSex, when a service, is not the same as any other service. There is a difference between driving a person somewhere in a taxi and having your face fucked and ejaculated on by a stranger. As many have stated before and as you can see in 99% of porn is that sex as a service is usually degrading towards women. Just look at the front page of any given porn site. Most of it is not, in any way, esteeming of the women participating. Look at goddamn blowjob videos. The women are not giving a blowjob - they are getting their face fucked. Extra points if they have to gag and be obviously physically uncomfortable and struggling to breathe. Dude it is just not the same as someone operating a forklift or making flower arrangements. Most of it is degrading and the more degrading the more klicks - the more people who frequent porn sites like it. And it's the same with prostitution. Read about what these women have experienced. It is plain awful. Sure if you are talking about a utopia where you can be 100% sure the prostitutes are there on their own terms and if every single customer is a loving, caring, gentle person taking care of the sex workers needs as much as their own - then yes, there would not be anything wrong with it. But that is just not how it is.\nHow hard is it, even in a healthy loving relationship, to always have both partners perfectly satisfied and met their needs sexually?\nSex is as intimate as human interaction can get and buying that from someone is taking all incentive away to treat the other person as good as you would treat a partner who you love and/or actively want to enjoy the time with you.\nAnd that is what disgusts people about people who frequent prostitutes. The possibility of being a person who, as long as they pay for something or feel like they've done their dues, doesn't give a shit about what the person on the other end is experiencing.\nedit: Because of other comments from OP I accused them of debating rather than discussing and suggested if they were seeking moral validation for what they do, which in itself was not part of a discussion really. I deleted that part because it serves no neutral purpose.",
">\n\nWell in this context not special but very very different, in the way that it is way more intimate, there's actually a part of ones body entering the others. There is exchange of bodily fluids. Those services are different from each other the same way as a massage is different to shoving items across a scanner, just times ten. One is naked, one experiences pleasure (or great pain) and one is not using their body to do something, they are having their body be used by someone else. That can leave physical bruises and mental scars because one is extremely vulnerable in the act.",
">\n\nMy view on it is that the act in itself is not wrong for anybody involved, but the character implication is what causes it to be met with disgust by some.\nIf you have money and you pay for sex from somebody who is willing, then it's no problem, but the issue comes when you delve into why they might be paying for sex.\nMany people experience sex in a consensual environment with a person who desires sex with them, and no money is involved. Many would view this as a very normal and important part of life.\nThe question that comes up subconsciously and/or consciously is \"why does this person need to pay for sex?\"\nIt could be that they have undeveloped social skills and this coild be deemed as a negative trait that needs to be worked on.\nAnother reason could be an atypically high sex drive, which could also be perceived as sex addiction.\nThese are not unlikely reasons for a person to pay a sex worker for sex and a judgement could be made before understanding more that they possess These sorts of traits that people simply have the desire to avoid.",
">\n\nThis is the correct answer. \nThe reason people look down on people who hire hookers has nothing to do with sex trafficking, or what really qualifies as consent, or any of the other comments in this thread. I think a good example is your iPhone. It is basically made with slave labor, but nobody really gives a shit. They just happily use their phone. If they actually did give a shit, they wouldn't buy iPhones. Also, prostitution has been around basically since the beginning of time. It has always been a part of human relationships and always will be.\nFor better or worse, the reason people look down on people who hire hookers is that it implies you are deficient in some way. If you were better looking or had better social skills or had more control over your base urges you would not need to hire a hooker. \nPersonally, I look at it like a wheelchair. I dont need a wheelchair and I really hope I never need one, but it is not fair (and downright cruel) for me to look down on someone who does use one. Are they deficient in some way? Yes. They can't walk. Do they deserve admonishment or judgement? No. Not at all.",
">\n\nYou're not paying too have sex with a prostitute. You're paying to use her body as a masturbatory aid.\nProstitution reduces women to being commodities, objects, things. Every other job, you're providing a skill to produce or exchange goods and services. Prostitution, the woman is the thing you're purchasing. The women are the commodities, they're not viewed as humen, they're viewed as consumable goods.",
">\n\nJust like almost every other Job, and any other form of sex work like strippers, onlyfans model , some e girl, girls who post theist traps on social media, so what makes those empowering and not this"
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OK fair so the difference in worldview is what makes argumen unsound to you !delta
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"/u/Due-Lie-8710 (OP) has awarded 7 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nThere's a song I like that speaks on this fairly poetically, so I'd like to start by just directly quoting it:\n\nSo when you bled on the bed as you fed those expectations, as a whore and not a human, you embraced with hesitation the very parameters of all you can be. Not a mother, not an aunt, not a sister who's not subdued. Because dignity's not physical, and your flesh means more than you.\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.",
">\n\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.\n\nFirst of all if you aren't trafficked it is just like another job, as for you both being seen as human , make sense hey aren't there to befriend to have sex , you are performing a service, it's like you watching football or a movie, you only see them as footballers ot actors , half of the time they don't care about their personal life, there are some jobs that prevent you from getting any high paying jobs or jobs that involve care , as for the people purchasing it , if you can't purchase it then why should they sell it , you don't actually support sex work, because that would mean accepting the consumer base ad well as the supplier",
">\n\nThat’s a really big if though, sex work isn’t exactly an industry where you will know for sure if the service you’re getting is consensual. individuals who are victims of sexual trafficking, coercion, or just life circumstance aren’t likely to just tell their “customers” if it isn’t consensual. they could endanger themselves or not be aware that they can say something. \nSeeing someone as an object vs seeing them as an individual with a job aren’t the same though? yes we recognize actors and football players by their career choice and how well they are at it, but they’re still people at the end of the day? that’s why they have fanbases, interviews, paparazzi, popularity on social media, movie adaptions of their life exist—people are interested in more than them just doing their job.\nA persons job is no reason to suddenly strip them of their humanity and rights granted them for being such, that kind of mentality is morally skewed and why a lot of people would not support sex work. plus you can’t say it makes sense for sex workers to be see as commodities only and then believe sex work will be consensual. the whole consent part comes from recognizing that this is another person who has their own boundaries and limits beyond just what you want.",
">\n\nokay, that’s a plumber and not a person you’re having sex with. unlike plumbing which is clean cut, sex can include multiple aspects of different kinks and fetishes. You can’t expect a sex worker to be okay with say participating in rape play, anal, scat, and a mirage of other kinks simply because they agreed to sex. Sex is not clean cut, there is more to it. There has to be a boundary somewhere, this is another person body not a pipe.",
">\n\nThat’s like the point? recognizing the boundary and proceeding from there by RESPECTING the boundary because they are another person and not some masturbatory object. What you just said was a consensual interaction. The initial point was that there is no consensual sex without respecting the party that’s giving as a person.",
">\n\nSo... there's a concept of a moral hazard. \nThere's literally no way for an individual to be certain that their prostitute is not being coerced/trafficked. Even if there are some special circumstances where it might be unlikely, certainty is still impossible, and most people frequenting prostitutes are not in those special circumstances.\nSomeone using their services is therefore extremely likely to be comfortable with risking that they are unknowingly raping someone. \nGenerally speaking, people find that disgusting.",
">\n\nIf you eat chocolate (even the stuff with the fair trade sticker) then there's no guarantee that it hasn't come from slave farms which are not uncommon. If you eat chocolate throughout your life then you are almost definitely contributing to slavery. If you visit a prostitute regularly then the chance they're being exploited is anywhere from functioninally 0% to 100%. So why treat the John who might be discerning with scorn and not the chocolate eater who is a much safer bet in having contributed to coerced labour.",
">\n\nIt's worth trying to avoid those situations, but ultimately it's a very false equivalence to hold people responsible for the actions of others, vs. their own personal actions.\nWhen you buy chocolate, you're not actually holding a gun to a slave, someone else is. The right answer to that is to lobby for worker protections for imported goods, and to try to end involuntary servitude within your country as well. \nWhen you have sex with a trafficked person, you personally literally raped them. If you don't have good evidence to know they aren't trafficked, you're personally ok with the possibility you're going to personally rape them. \nBoth might be considered bad. But it's a false equivalence.\nAnd sure... if someone is paying someone for sex when they are personal friends with them, and interact with them outside of prostitution enough to personally know that they aren't being trafficked... and you're sure they aren't lying, scorning them more than at most some light ribbing isn't justified. It's not like \"sugar daddies\" aren't a thing as well. At the very least much less disapprobation would be appropriate.",
">\n\nIn both cases, there is a customer receiving a service provided by a potentially enslaved person. They are morally equivalent. It makes no sense to say “sure I bought the slavery chocolate, but you can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”",
">\n\n\nyou can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”\n\nThe slavers actions are distinct from the consumers' actions for most things. \nThis is an actual important difference when it comes to prostitution. \nIgnoring that fundamental difference doesn't make it go away, and it's entirely reasonable for someone to make that distinction.",
">\n\nThe slaver and consumer are different people who take different actions in the prostitution scenario. The consumer in both scenarios is taking the risk of being immoral. If I force you to be my slave that’s still immoral whether or not I put you to work in my brothel or mine or factory or fishing boat. And if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever, it’s equivalent.",
">\n\n\nAnd if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever , it’s equivalent.\n\nThis is where the false equivalence comes in. \nSomeone making products with slave labor is not renting out a slave to the consumer so that they consumer can force them to perform mining for the consumer. They are enslaving the labor to create a product, and selling the product. Products don't have rights to violate. The only person violating the rights of the slave is the slaver.\nSomeone trafficking a victim is renting out that victim so that the consumer can rape them.",
">\n\nIf the sex is only contractual to you? Why not just \"hook up.\" Why pay? You will never be able to guarantee they are not being trafficked. If they are, they are not going to tell you. I think the idea of money exchanging hands for sex is the why most have a problem. The idea that you are giving a woman money for sex has been historically seen as her being a whore. \nI am not saying she is. I am saying that from the time it first exchanged hands, that is what it was. Men who could not find a woman, paid a woman. Why do you want others to see it differently? Yes, there will be outliers that will enjoy the work. But those are going to be ones that, like the escort, chose it, and charge what they want. Not the typical street hookers on the corner with pimps to pay. \nProve they are not trafficked, they work for themselves, they are clean (of both drugs and diseases - because they are taking care of themselves and being safe), and that they are a sex worker because they enjoy the work or that that chose the work. Then, hey! Pay 'em and get to it!",
">\n\nI think it is morally unhealthy to normalize it. Even though you have to be an adult to smoke weed, we definitely see weed as a normal thing to do in moderation compared to a few decades ago. This is how we would see prostitution if it was normalized. And I think weed has a lot less complications than legalizing prostitution. A LOT!\nSex work online is a lot safer and requires a lot less mental issues to engage in and promote. But even then, I know some sex workers (online type), and they are scarred by the stuff they have seen when it comes to their job. They have told me stories that are extremely disturbing. These are women who just do stuff by themselves. Not working with a porn company and other people.\nAlso, sex has a huge reputation for being violent and demoralizing towards women in general. I'd assume those numbers would be much higher in men looking to pay for sex. You'd have to have extremely strict and tight regulations for this sort of thing, which would take the fun out of it for a lot of people. And even then, there would still be many mistakes that would happen before we find out all the regulations that are needed. And I don't think we could ever make it mentally and physically safe for women.\nNow, do I think it should be decriminalized for prostitutes? Definitely. I don't see them as disgusting. I feel quite bad for them. Most of them were trafficked at a young age. Do I see men wanting to pay for sex as disgusting? Not necessarily. It depends on the person and the situation. However, this isn't a simple issue where if we just \"stop judging people,\" everything will be fine.",
">\n\nDecriminalizing prostitution for both those selling and buying is demonstrably safer for prostitutes. If it is criminal for the buyer but not the seller, the buyer is often highly defensive and paranoid about the seller, specifically the possibility that they may be working with law enforcement. The buyer will often push to do it in a highly isolated setting as well. These things increase violence that sex workers face, and the averages go down in places where it is decriminalized to both buy and sell. If you have a designated work place for it and no one needs to be distrustful and worried about being arrested, that is the safest situation for all involved. \nWe may disagree with buying it for whatever moral reason, but if we choose to criminalize the purchase of it, we are prioritizing punishing behavior we morally disagree with over prioritizing the safety of those involved, which I can't get behind.",
">\n\nBut there are so many more facets to the safety of legalizing it for the buyer other than them being pushy or wanting to do it in a hidden area. If we legalized it, it still wouldn't really help any of the points I made or is even something that is so overwhelmingly an issue compared to the points I made.",
">\n\nSo long as we have to work to live, all jobs are coercive, even sex work. I’m skeptical that there can ever be a consensual exchange within our current economic context.",
">\n\nExactly , I get sex is intimate but if you are willing to view sex work as any other job , you should be willing to treat it as such",
">\n\nSex work has certain occupational hazards that cannot be regulated away. OSHA (in the US) dictates that a person cannot be subject to bodily fluids without proper PPE in the workplace, and often johns just need to pay more to not wear a condom. Imagine a construction site paying workers more to not wear a hard hat. The greater potential for bodily harm is intrinsic to the work, and it will always be unsafe.",
">\n\nTrue but this doesn't really answer my question",
">\n\nMy point is that treating it like any other job is not ethically possible due to hazardous conditions",
">\n\nThis is a bad take.\nI’d wager prostitution doesn’t even rank in the top ten dangerous jobs by capita.",
">\n\nThat really depends. A gas station cashier likely has a higher risk of being killed. But a quick Google shows sex workers are thirty times more likely to get Aids than the general population. They're also at ridiculously high rates of risk to their mental health. Ptsd is common. Also, yes, sitting at a counter in a gas station is technically dangerous. But it is different type of danger compared to someone fucking them in the ass while shoving a sock in their mouth and calling them a dirty whore. When this happens to a prostitute, since she isn't dead, then all good right?! :) Her job isn't dangerous, she's still alive! And they're really not paid much. Average pay for a sex scene in porn for a woman is around $600, for the guy it's like a hundred. For prostitution you're looking at a hundred to two hundred dollars. \nAlso, if you're in the us. Good luck affording health insurance as an independent contractor engaged in sex work.",
">\n\nI’m not exactly impressed with the American system so if you’re criticising Americans health system then fuck yeah more power to you.\nYou raise fantastic points about there being non lethal dangers in sex work that are worth considering and harder to measure.\nThat being said, sit for a while and think about whether you think that sex workers are in a job so dangerous that it deserves its own category and shouldn’t even be allowed. (This is what the commenter I was responding to was claiming)\nI’m comfortable I’d ban lumberjack as a profession long before I considered banning prostitution based on relative level of danger and conditions.\nI don’t have a specific statistic but soldiers at an educated guess would probably be more likely to experience danger and mental issues but the commenter I responded to probably never thought for one second about banning soldiers on that basis.\nIt’s clear bias, being rationalised as something it isn’t.",
">\n\nIt's decriminalised where I live, which means women can arrange anything themselves. So you can have a strip club with a \"hotel\" above it. Basically 100% of the workers are foreign, from places like Ukraine. Russia, Moldova, Romania. Etc. It's a strange aspect which isn't often brought up. But\"legalizing \" almost always results on foreign workers undercutting any local workforce. How can a 26 year old American girl from the burbs compete with an 18 year Thai girl? One is fine doing work at basically the rates of a full time McDonald's employee, while the other isn't. And of course, that breeds the type of people you'd imagine running the business. Even in places like Amsterdam, where there's tons of regulation, you get the same trafficking you see anywhere else.\nSo morally. I've got zero problem. But I've just never seen a model that can actually ensure safety for everyone involved.",
">\n\nWell culture is everything isn't it? Of there wasn't so much sex tourism from places that have prostitution illegal there would probably be less demand wouldn't there? Less demand would make the whole industry safer imo due to the loss of money driving the search for foreign market girls\nLike imagine the whole world has a brothel just down the block. Does that make it more safe just by sheer volume and normality?",
">\n\nFirstly, i'm not religious, i'm sex-positive and the sex lives of strangers rarely concerns me. I don't think paying for these services makes you a \"bad\" person, nor a \"disgusting\" one.. but for me, it would affect your desirability to me as a partner. To me attraction is a big thing, and i'll be honest, I see it as kind of lame. Not morally corrupt but just ...desperate. \nI would want my partner to be someone that women wanted to have sex with, not the man that they had sex with as a purely profitable transaction. Whilst it's consensual, when you involve money or a benefit other than sex, the line slightly blurs, and I find it becomes icky. \nIt's not even that I think my partner should only have had strictly intimate and personable relations... but the question does spring to mind of \"is sex that has been paid for truly consensual? can you guarantee that?\" Even popular Pornstars who previously agreed to do porn and made careers out of it have stories where they later felt disgusted by what they've had to do but were so enamored by the money, they went through with it. Sex workers will ALWAYS sell a positive image to their clients, part of their job is to make you feel desired, but you never truly know the reality. \nAll in all, it can be seen as \"bad\" or \"disgusting\" because monetary rewards affects the lines of purely consensual sex. The same way it can be icky for a boss to have sex with the intern, the same way directors have sex with actresses that want to star in their movies, and the same way rockstars have sex with their fans. Doesn't make 'em rapists, but it's why people won't look at it as respectable.",
">\n\nyou aren’t sex positive if you think paying for sex is desperate.\ndoes paying for alcohol mean you’re desperate for happiness? some people want to have fun so they buy drinks, others find more fun in sex. as long as sex work is consensual and not the result of pimping or some other form of coercion then I don’t see any harm or how it would be desperate.\nthere are tangible benefits to buying sex vs finding it “naturally” that i don’t think you’re considering. \nwith sex workers you’re safer and don’t have to worry about pregnancy, theft, psychotic women, and other risks that come from random hookups with strangers or even casual dating. there’s also the whole “i don’t need to put time and effort into finding and flirting with someone” when it can be on demand. yea making food at home is usually cheaper and better tasting than takeout but sometimes you’re lazy and want a pizza delivered.",
">\n\nI’m generally sex positive to consensual sex between people. However, everything falls on a spectrum and I don’t think you have to have a certain view on every avenue to be as such. Much like you can love your job, your country or your friends but that doesn’t mean you can’t provide any forms of criticism nor must you love EVERY aspect of these things. \nI have no disdain for people who hook up on dating apps, clubs, attend sex parties etc. I will always believe sex workers should have right to practice and do so in a safe environment. I also wouldn’t stop their client base either, it’s not my business, but there are ethical implications and I’ve said my view from the perspective of my partner which naturally i hold to a more personable standard. I wouldn’t want to be with someone who puts their sexual desires above the possible implications involved in sex work. \nI do want to touch on your point that as long as it’s not coerced or forced, it’s okay. The ethical implication behind this is that when you involve money, this is not guaranteed. Not all clients will take the time to research the background and extra people involved behind the scenes. The women with pimps and who are trafficked won’t spill those beans to you. Again, there will always be exceptions to the rule. \nI understand that sex work is convenient to many but my perception is not swayed by the mere idea that paying for sex means you get to avoid having to flirt with women. Much like I can understand why people have no choice to purchase fast fashion and I’ll understand the reasoning but that does not mean I should ignore the child labour and poor conditions that make this possible. \nAll in all, I won’t stop you but I’m going to think it’s kinda lame. You can wear an item of clothing, I’ll defend you to wear that clothing and I won’t make you feel bad for wearing it.. but I may not like it myself.",
">\n\nReading your posts made me think of a bird preening it's feathers to attract a mate. I thought it was just you being obtuse untill you brought fashion into this lol\nYou really are just a pair of eyes arnt you. No complexity attached. \"I saw it in the window so I bought it! I didn't even care that it was 500$ I just wanted it because the other girls were eyeing it down and I just HAD to have it💅\"",
">\n\nI genuinely have no idea what you’re trying to convey. The topic of fashion was merely to represent that there are often complexities and nuance. So yes, I can be sex positive but I don’t necessarily have to agree with all the variances within the to topic of sex. \nI assume I’ve hit a nerve for your style of response.",
">\n\nNot sure about everywhere else but in America being as prostitution is illegal a lot of the situations the workers are in are really sad, depressing and predatory. If you take a look at the book “Pimp” by ice berg slim for example a lot of the industry isn’t the ideal some just wants to make money like any other job and the pimp is just a bodyguard/manger,\nA lot of it involves a tone of manipulation and dependency and when you add on the ones where safe sex isn’t a priority and the literal hundreds of partners you engage with in such a short time it all comes off as kinda gross.",
">\n\nSex, when a service, is not the same as any other service. There is a difference between driving a person somewhere in a taxi and having your face fucked and ejaculated on by a stranger. As many have stated before and as you can see in 99% of porn is that sex as a service is usually degrading towards women. Just look at the front page of any given porn site. Most of it is not, in any way, esteeming of the women participating. Look at goddamn blowjob videos. The women are not giving a blowjob - they are getting their face fucked. Extra points if they have to gag and be obviously physically uncomfortable and struggling to breathe. Dude it is just not the same as someone operating a forklift or making flower arrangements. Most of it is degrading and the more degrading the more klicks - the more people who frequent porn sites like it. And it's the same with prostitution. Read about what these women have experienced. It is plain awful. Sure if you are talking about a utopia where you can be 100% sure the prostitutes are there on their own terms and if every single customer is a loving, caring, gentle person taking care of the sex workers needs as much as their own - then yes, there would not be anything wrong with it. But that is just not how it is.\nHow hard is it, even in a healthy loving relationship, to always have both partners perfectly satisfied and met their needs sexually?\nSex is as intimate as human interaction can get and buying that from someone is taking all incentive away to treat the other person as good as you would treat a partner who you love and/or actively want to enjoy the time with you.\nAnd that is what disgusts people about people who frequent prostitutes. The possibility of being a person who, as long as they pay for something or feel like they've done their dues, doesn't give a shit about what the person on the other end is experiencing.\nedit: Because of other comments from OP I accused them of debating rather than discussing and suggested if they were seeking moral validation for what they do, which in itself was not part of a discussion really. I deleted that part because it serves no neutral purpose.",
">\n\nWell in this context not special but very very different, in the way that it is way more intimate, there's actually a part of ones body entering the others. There is exchange of bodily fluids. Those services are different from each other the same way as a massage is different to shoving items across a scanner, just times ten. One is naked, one experiences pleasure (or great pain) and one is not using their body to do something, they are having their body be used by someone else. That can leave physical bruises and mental scars because one is extremely vulnerable in the act.",
">\n\nMy view on it is that the act in itself is not wrong for anybody involved, but the character implication is what causes it to be met with disgust by some.\nIf you have money and you pay for sex from somebody who is willing, then it's no problem, but the issue comes when you delve into why they might be paying for sex.\nMany people experience sex in a consensual environment with a person who desires sex with them, and no money is involved. Many would view this as a very normal and important part of life.\nThe question that comes up subconsciously and/or consciously is \"why does this person need to pay for sex?\"\nIt could be that they have undeveloped social skills and this coild be deemed as a negative trait that needs to be worked on.\nAnother reason could be an atypically high sex drive, which could also be perceived as sex addiction.\nThese are not unlikely reasons for a person to pay a sex worker for sex and a judgement could be made before understanding more that they possess These sorts of traits that people simply have the desire to avoid.",
">\n\nThis is the correct answer. \nThe reason people look down on people who hire hookers has nothing to do with sex trafficking, or what really qualifies as consent, or any of the other comments in this thread. I think a good example is your iPhone. It is basically made with slave labor, but nobody really gives a shit. They just happily use their phone. If they actually did give a shit, they wouldn't buy iPhones. Also, prostitution has been around basically since the beginning of time. It has always been a part of human relationships and always will be.\nFor better or worse, the reason people look down on people who hire hookers is that it implies you are deficient in some way. If you were better looking or had better social skills or had more control over your base urges you would not need to hire a hooker. \nPersonally, I look at it like a wheelchair. I dont need a wheelchair and I really hope I never need one, but it is not fair (and downright cruel) for me to look down on someone who does use one. Are they deficient in some way? Yes. They can't walk. Do they deserve admonishment or judgement? No. Not at all.",
">\n\nYou're not paying too have sex with a prostitute. You're paying to use her body as a masturbatory aid.\nProstitution reduces women to being commodities, objects, things. Every other job, you're providing a skill to produce or exchange goods and services. Prostitution, the woman is the thing you're purchasing. The women are the commodities, they're not viewed as humen, they're viewed as consumable goods.",
">\n\nJust like almost every other Job, and any other form of sex work like strippers, onlyfans model , some e girl, girls who post theist traps on social media, so what makes those empowering and not this",
">\n\nStrippers, only fans, e-girls are not empowering. It's gross. When it comes down to it, they're sluts. And they're no better than their fuck-boy counterparts."
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Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/19jals80 (1∆).
^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards
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[
"/u/Due-Lie-8710 (OP) has awarded 7 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nThere's a song I like that speaks on this fairly poetically, so I'd like to start by just directly quoting it:\n\nSo when you bled on the bed as you fed those expectations, as a whore and not a human, you embraced with hesitation the very parameters of all you can be. Not a mother, not an aunt, not a sister who's not subdued. Because dignity's not physical, and your flesh means more than you.\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.",
">\n\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.\n\nFirst of all if you aren't trafficked it is just like another job, as for you both being seen as human , make sense hey aren't there to befriend to have sex , you are performing a service, it's like you watching football or a movie, you only see them as footballers ot actors , half of the time they don't care about their personal life, there are some jobs that prevent you from getting any high paying jobs or jobs that involve care , as for the people purchasing it , if you can't purchase it then why should they sell it , you don't actually support sex work, because that would mean accepting the consumer base ad well as the supplier",
">\n\nThat’s a really big if though, sex work isn’t exactly an industry where you will know for sure if the service you’re getting is consensual. individuals who are victims of sexual trafficking, coercion, or just life circumstance aren’t likely to just tell their “customers” if it isn’t consensual. they could endanger themselves or not be aware that they can say something. \nSeeing someone as an object vs seeing them as an individual with a job aren’t the same though? yes we recognize actors and football players by their career choice and how well they are at it, but they’re still people at the end of the day? that’s why they have fanbases, interviews, paparazzi, popularity on social media, movie adaptions of their life exist—people are interested in more than them just doing their job.\nA persons job is no reason to suddenly strip them of their humanity and rights granted them for being such, that kind of mentality is morally skewed and why a lot of people would not support sex work. plus you can’t say it makes sense for sex workers to be see as commodities only and then believe sex work will be consensual. the whole consent part comes from recognizing that this is another person who has their own boundaries and limits beyond just what you want.",
">\n\nokay, that’s a plumber and not a person you’re having sex with. unlike plumbing which is clean cut, sex can include multiple aspects of different kinks and fetishes. You can’t expect a sex worker to be okay with say participating in rape play, anal, scat, and a mirage of other kinks simply because they agreed to sex. Sex is not clean cut, there is more to it. There has to be a boundary somewhere, this is another person body not a pipe.",
">\n\nThat’s like the point? recognizing the boundary and proceeding from there by RESPECTING the boundary because they are another person and not some masturbatory object. What you just said was a consensual interaction. The initial point was that there is no consensual sex without respecting the party that’s giving as a person.",
">\n\nSo... there's a concept of a moral hazard. \nThere's literally no way for an individual to be certain that their prostitute is not being coerced/trafficked. Even if there are some special circumstances where it might be unlikely, certainty is still impossible, and most people frequenting prostitutes are not in those special circumstances.\nSomeone using their services is therefore extremely likely to be comfortable with risking that they are unknowingly raping someone. \nGenerally speaking, people find that disgusting.",
">\n\nIf you eat chocolate (even the stuff with the fair trade sticker) then there's no guarantee that it hasn't come from slave farms which are not uncommon. If you eat chocolate throughout your life then you are almost definitely contributing to slavery. If you visit a prostitute regularly then the chance they're being exploited is anywhere from functioninally 0% to 100%. So why treat the John who might be discerning with scorn and not the chocolate eater who is a much safer bet in having contributed to coerced labour.",
">\n\nIt's worth trying to avoid those situations, but ultimately it's a very false equivalence to hold people responsible for the actions of others, vs. their own personal actions.\nWhen you buy chocolate, you're not actually holding a gun to a slave, someone else is. The right answer to that is to lobby for worker protections for imported goods, and to try to end involuntary servitude within your country as well. \nWhen you have sex with a trafficked person, you personally literally raped them. If you don't have good evidence to know they aren't trafficked, you're personally ok with the possibility you're going to personally rape them. \nBoth might be considered bad. But it's a false equivalence.\nAnd sure... if someone is paying someone for sex when they are personal friends with them, and interact with them outside of prostitution enough to personally know that they aren't being trafficked... and you're sure they aren't lying, scorning them more than at most some light ribbing isn't justified. It's not like \"sugar daddies\" aren't a thing as well. At the very least much less disapprobation would be appropriate.",
">\n\nIn both cases, there is a customer receiving a service provided by a potentially enslaved person. They are morally equivalent. It makes no sense to say “sure I bought the slavery chocolate, but you can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”",
">\n\n\nyou can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”\n\nThe slavers actions are distinct from the consumers' actions for most things. \nThis is an actual important difference when it comes to prostitution. \nIgnoring that fundamental difference doesn't make it go away, and it's entirely reasonable for someone to make that distinction.",
">\n\nThe slaver and consumer are different people who take different actions in the prostitution scenario. The consumer in both scenarios is taking the risk of being immoral. If I force you to be my slave that’s still immoral whether or not I put you to work in my brothel or mine or factory or fishing boat. And if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever, it’s equivalent.",
">\n\n\nAnd if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever , it’s equivalent.\n\nThis is where the false equivalence comes in. \nSomeone making products with slave labor is not renting out a slave to the consumer so that they consumer can force them to perform mining for the consumer. They are enslaving the labor to create a product, and selling the product. Products don't have rights to violate. The only person violating the rights of the slave is the slaver.\nSomeone trafficking a victim is renting out that victim so that the consumer can rape them.",
">\n\nIf the sex is only contractual to you? Why not just \"hook up.\" Why pay? You will never be able to guarantee they are not being trafficked. If they are, they are not going to tell you. I think the idea of money exchanging hands for sex is the why most have a problem. The idea that you are giving a woman money for sex has been historically seen as her being a whore. \nI am not saying she is. I am saying that from the time it first exchanged hands, that is what it was. Men who could not find a woman, paid a woman. Why do you want others to see it differently? Yes, there will be outliers that will enjoy the work. But those are going to be ones that, like the escort, chose it, and charge what they want. Not the typical street hookers on the corner with pimps to pay. \nProve they are not trafficked, they work for themselves, they are clean (of both drugs and diseases - because they are taking care of themselves and being safe), and that they are a sex worker because they enjoy the work or that that chose the work. Then, hey! Pay 'em and get to it!",
">\n\nI think it is morally unhealthy to normalize it. Even though you have to be an adult to smoke weed, we definitely see weed as a normal thing to do in moderation compared to a few decades ago. This is how we would see prostitution if it was normalized. And I think weed has a lot less complications than legalizing prostitution. A LOT!\nSex work online is a lot safer and requires a lot less mental issues to engage in and promote. But even then, I know some sex workers (online type), and they are scarred by the stuff they have seen when it comes to their job. They have told me stories that are extremely disturbing. These are women who just do stuff by themselves. Not working with a porn company and other people.\nAlso, sex has a huge reputation for being violent and demoralizing towards women in general. I'd assume those numbers would be much higher in men looking to pay for sex. You'd have to have extremely strict and tight regulations for this sort of thing, which would take the fun out of it for a lot of people. And even then, there would still be many mistakes that would happen before we find out all the regulations that are needed. And I don't think we could ever make it mentally and physically safe for women.\nNow, do I think it should be decriminalized for prostitutes? Definitely. I don't see them as disgusting. I feel quite bad for them. Most of them were trafficked at a young age. Do I see men wanting to pay for sex as disgusting? Not necessarily. It depends on the person and the situation. However, this isn't a simple issue where if we just \"stop judging people,\" everything will be fine.",
">\n\nDecriminalizing prostitution for both those selling and buying is demonstrably safer for prostitutes. If it is criminal for the buyer but not the seller, the buyer is often highly defensive and paranoid about the seller, specifically the possibility that they may be working with law enforcement. The buyer will often push to do it in a highly isolated setting as well. These things increase violence that sex workers face, and the averages go down in places where it is decriminalized to both buy and sell. If you have a designated work place for it and no one needs to be distrustful and worried about being arrested, that is the safest situation for all involved. \nWe may disagree with buying it for whatever moral reason, but if we choose to criminalize the purchase of it, we are prioritizing punishing behavior we morally disagree with over prioritizing the safety of those involved, which I can't get behind.",
">\n\nBut there are so many more facets to the safety of legalizing it for the buyer other than them being pushy or wanting to do it in a hidden area. If we legalized it, it still wouldn't really help any of the points I made or is even something that is so overwhelmingly an issue compared to the points I made.",
">\n\nSo long as we have to work to live, all jobs are coercive, even sex work. I’m skeptical that there can ever be a consensual exchange within our current economic context.",
">\n\nExactly , I get sex is intimate but if you are willing to view sex work as any other job , you should be willing to treat it as such",
">\n\nSex work has certain occupational hazards that cannot be regulated away. OSHA (in the US) dictates that a person cannot be subject to bodily fluids without proper PPE in the workplace, and often johns just need to pay more to not wear a condom. Imagine a construction site paying workers more to not wear a hard hat. The greater potential for bodily harm is intrinsic to the work, and it will always be unsafe.",
">\n\nTrue but this doesn't really answer my question",
">\n\nMy point is that treating it like any other job is not ethically possible due to hazardous conditions",
">\n\nThis is a bad take.\nI’d wager prostitution doesn’t even rank in the top ten dangerous jobs by capita.",
">\n\nThat really depends. A gas station cashier likely has a higher risk of being killed. But a quick Google shows sex workers are thirty times more likely to get Aids than the general population. They're also at ridiculously high rates of risk to their mental health. Ptsd is common. Also, yes, sitting at a counter in a gas station is technically dangerous. But it is different type of danger compared to someone fucking them in the ass while shoving a sock in their mouth and calling them a dirty whore. When this happens to a prostitute, since she isn't dead, then all good right?! :) Her job isn't dangerous, she's still alive! And they're really not paid much. Average pay for a sex scene in porn for a woman is around $600, for the guy it's like a hundred. For prostitution you're looking at a hundred to two hundred dollars. \nAlso, if you're in the us. Good luck affording health insurance as an independent contractor engaged in sex work.",
">\n\nI’m not exactly impressed with the American system so if you’re criticising Americans health system then fuck yeah more power to you.\nYou raise fantastic points about there being non lethal dangers in sex work that are worth considering and harder to measure.\nThat being said, sit for a while and think about whether you think that sex workers are in a job so dangerous that it deserves its own category and shouldn’t even be allowed. (This is what the commenter I was responding to was claiming)\nI’m comfortable I’d ban lumberjack as a profession long before I considered banning prostitution based on relative level of danger and conditions.\nI don’t have a specific statistic but soldiers at an educated guess would probably be more likely to experience danger and mental issues but the commenter I responded to probably never thought for one second about banning soldiers on that basis.\nIt’s clear bias, being rationalised as something it isn’t.",
">\n\nIt's decriminalised where I live, which means women can arrange anything themselves. So you can have a strip club with a \"hotel\" above it. Basically 100% of the workers are foreign, from places like Ukraine. Russia, Moldova, Romania. Etc. It's a strange aspect which isn't often brought up. But\"legalizing \" almost always results on foreign workers undercutting any local workforce. How can a 26 year old American girl from the burbs compete with an 18 year Thai girl? One is fine doing work at basically the rates of a full time McDonald's employee, while the other isn't. And of course, that breeds the type of people you'd imagine running the business. Even in places like Amsterdam, where there's tons of regulation, you get the same trafficking you see anywhere else.\nSo morally. I've got zero problem. But I've just never seen a model that can actually ensure safety for everyone involved.",
">\n\nWell culture is everything isn't it? Of there wasn't so much sex tourism from places that have prostitution illegal there would probably be less demand wouldn't there? Less demand would make the whole industry safer imo due to the loss of money driving the search for foreign market girls\nLike imagine the whole world has a brothel just down the block. Does that make it more safe just by sheer volume and normality?",
">\n\nFirstly, i'm not religious, i'm sex-positive and the sex lives of strangers rarely concerns me. I don't think paying for these services makes you a \"bad\" person, nor a \"disgusting\" one.. but for me, it would affect your desirability to me as a partner. To me attraction is a big thing, and i'll be honest, I see it as kind of lame. Not morally corrupt but just ...desperate. \nI would want my partner to be someone that women wanted to have sex with, not the man that they had sex with as a purely profitable transaction. Whilst it's consensual, when you involve money or a benefit other than sex, the line slightly blurs, and I find it becomes icky. \nIt's not even that I think my partner should only have had strictly intimate and personable relations... but the question does spring to mind of \"is sex that has been paid for truly consensual? can you guarantee that?\" Even popular Pornstars who previously agreed to do porn and made careers out of it have stories where they later felt disgusted by what they've had to do but were so enamored by the money, they went through with it. Sex workers will ALWAYS sell a positive image to their clients, part of their job is to make you feel desired, but you never truly know the reality. \nAll in all, it can be seen as \"bad\" or \"disgusting\" because monetary rewards affects the lines of purely consensual sex. The same way it can be icky for a boss to have sex with the intern, the same way directors have sex with actresses that want to star in their movies, and the same way rockstars have sex with their fans. Doesn't make 'em rapists, but it's why people won't look at it as respectable.",
">\n\nyou aren’t sex positive if you think paying for sex is desperate.\ndoes paying for alcohol mean you’re desperate for happiness? some people want to have fun so they buy drinks, others find more fun in sex. as long as sex work is consensual and not the result of pimping or some other form of coercion then I don’t see any harm or how it would be desperate.\nthere are tangible benefits to buying sex vs finding it “naturally” that i don’t think you’re considering. \nwith sex workers you’re safer and don’t have to worry about pregnancy, theft, psychotic women, and other risks that come from random hookups with strangers or even casual dating. there’s also the whole “i don’t need to put time and effort into finding and flirting with someone” when it can be on demand. yea making food at home is usually cheaper and better tasting than takeout but sometimes you’re lazy and want a pizza delivered.",
">\n\nI’m generally sex positive to consensual sex between people. However, everything falls on a spectrum and I don’t think you have to have a certain view on every avenue to be as such. Much like you can love your job, your country or your friends but that doesn’t mean you can’t provide any forms of criticism nor must you love EVERY aspect of these things. \nI have no disdain for people who hook up on dating apps, clubs, attend sex parties etc. I will always believe sex workers should have right to practice and do so in a safe environment. I also wouldn’t stop their client base either, it’s not my business, but there are ethical implications and I’ve said my view from the perspective of my partner which naturally i hold to a more personable standard. I wouldn’t want to be with someone who puts their sexual desires above the possible implications involved in sex work. \nI do want to touch on your point that as long as it’s not coerced or forced, it’s okay. The ethical implication behind this is that when you involve money, this is not guaranteed. Not all clients will take the time to research the background and extra people involved behind the scenes. The women with pimps and who are trafficked won’t spill those beans to you. Again, there will always be exceptions to the rule. \nI understand that sex work is convenient to many but my perception is not swayed by the mere idea that paying for sex means you get to avoid having to flirt with women. Much like I can understand why people have no choice to purchase fast fashion and I’ll understand the reasoning but that does not mean I should ignore the child labour and poor conditions that make this possible. \nAll in all, I won’t stop you but I’m going to think it’s kinda lame. You can wear an item of clothing, I’ll defend you to wear that clothing and I won’t make you feel bad for wearing it.. but I may not like it myself.",
">\n\nReading your posts made me think of a bird preening it's feathers to attract a mate. I thought it was just you being obtuse untill you brought fashion into this lol\nYou really are just a pair of eyes arnt you. No complexity attached. \"I saw it in the window so I bought it! I didn't even care that it was 500$ I just wanted it because the other girls were eyeing it down and I just HAD to have it💅\"",
">\n\nI genuinely have no idea what you’re trying to convey. The topic of fashion was merely to represent that there are often complexities and nuance. So yes, I can be sex positive but I don’t necessarily have to agree with all the variances within the to topic of sex. \nI assume I’ve hit a nerve for your style of response.",
">\n\nNot sure about everywhere else but in America being as prostitution is illegal a lot of the situations the workers are in are really sad, depressing and predatory. If you take a look at the book “Pimp” by ice berg slim for example a lot of the industry isn’t the ideal some just wants to make money like any other job and the pimp is just a bodyguard/manger,\nA lot of it involves a tone of manipulation and dependency and when you add on the ones where safe sex isn’t a priority and the literal hundreds of partners you engage with in such a short time it all comes off as kinda gross.",
">\n\nSex, when a service, is not the same as any other service. There is a difference between driving a person somewhere in a taxi and having your face fucked and ejaculated on by a stranger. As many have stated before and as you can see in 99% of porn is that sex as a service is usually degrading towards women. Just look at the front page of any given porn site. Most of it is not, in any way, esteeming of the women participating. Look at goddamn blowjob videos. The women are not giving a blowjob - they are getting their face fucked. Extra points if they have to gag and be obviously physically uncomfortable and struggling to breathe. Dude it is just not the same as someone operating a forklift or making flower arrangements. Most of it is degrading and the more degrading the more klicks - the more people who frequent porn sites like it. And it's the same with prostitution. Read about what these women have experienced. It is plain awful. Sure if you are talking about a utopia where you can be 100% sure the prostitutes are there on their own terms and if every single customer is a loving, caring, gentle person taking care of the sex workers needs as much as their own - then yes, there would not be anything wrong with it. But that is just not how it is.\nHow hard is it, even in a healthy loving relationship, to always have both partners perfectly satisfied and met their needs sexually?\nSex is as intimate as human interaction can get and buying that from someone is taking all incentive away to treat the other person as good as you would treat a partner who you love and/or actively want to enjoy the time with you.\nAnd that is what disgusts people about people who frequent prostitutes. The possibility of being a person who, as long as they pay for something or feel like they've done their dues, doesn't give a shit about what the person on the other end is experiencing.\nedit: Because of other comments from OP I accused them of debating rather than discussing and suggested if they were seeking moral validation for what they do, which in itself was not part of a discussion really. I deleted that part because it serves no neutral purpose.",
">\n\nWell in this context not special but very very different, in the way that it is way more intimate, there's actually a part of ones body entering the others. There is exchange of bodily fluids. Those services are different from each other the same way as a massage is different to shoving items across a scanner, just times ten. One is naked, one experiences pleasure (or great pain) and one is not using their body to do something, they are having their body be used by someone else. That can leave physical bruises and mental scars because one is extremely vulnerable in the act.",
">\n\nMy view on it is that the act in itself is not wrong for anybody involved, but the character implication is what causes it to be met with disgust by some.\nIf you have money and you pay for sex from somebody who is willing, then it's no problem, but the issue comes when you delve into why they might be paying for sex.\nMany people experience sex in a consensual environment with a person who desires sex with them, and no money is involved. Many would view this as a very normal and important part of life.\nThe question that comes up subconsciously and/or consciously is \"why does this person need to pay for sex?\"\nIt could be that they have undeveloped social skills and this coild be deemed as a negative trait that needs to be worked on.\nAnother reason could be an atypically high sex drive, which could also be perceived as sex addiction.\nThese are not unlikely reasons for a person to pay a sex worker for sex and a judgement could be made before understanding more that they possess These sorts of traits that people simply have the desire to avoid.",
">\n\nThis is the correct answer. \nThe reason people look down on people who hire hookers has nothing to do with sex trafficking, or what really qualifies as consent, or any of the other comments in this thread. I think a good example is your iPhone. It is basically made with slave labor, but nobody really gives a shit. They just happily use their phone. If they actually did give a shit, they wouldn't buy iPhones. Also, prostitution has been around basically since the beginning of time. It has always been a part of human relationships and always will be.\nFor better or worse, the reason people look down on people who hire hookers is that it implies you are deficient in some way. If you were better looking or had better social skills or had more control over your base urges you would not need to hire a hooker. \nPersonally, I look at it like a wheelchair. I dont need a wheelchair and I really hope I never need one, but it is not fair (and downright cruel) for me to look down on someone who does use one. Are they deficient in some way? Yes. They can't walk. Do they deserve admonishment or judgement? No. Not at all.",
">\n\nYou're not paying too have sex with a prostitute. You're paying to use her body as a masturbatory aid.\nProstitution reduces women to being commodities, objects, things. Every other job, you're providing a skill to produce or exchange goods and services. Prostitution, the woman is the thing you're purchasing. The women are the commodities, they're not viewed as humen, they're viewed as consumable goods.",
">\n\nJust like almost every other Job, and any other form of sex work like strippers, onlyfans model , some e girl, girls who post theist traps on social media, so what makes those empowering and not this",
">\n\nStrippers, only fans, e-girls are not empowering. It's gross. When it comes down to it, they're sluts. And they're no better than their fuck-boy counterparts.",
">\n\nOK fair so the difference in worldview is what makes argumen unsound to you !delta"
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You just can never know for sure whether the sex worker is being trafficked or not. You can't assume they'd tell you the truth if you asked. They might endanger themselves by telling you the truth. The sex worker wants money, and is willing to have some sexual contact with you in order to get the money. But fundamentally, they're permitting you to do something to their body that they do not want in and of itself. Therefore, their consent is dubious and conditional upon your payment. To me, that's not sufficient consent. I want someone I'm having sex with to genuinely, enthusiastically want to have sex with me for the sole purpose of enjoying sex with me. I don't want to use people as means to ends, and I don't want to be used as a means to anyone else's ends.
I don't morally disapprove of sex work. I just wouldn't support it because it doesn't provide a good or service that interests me. I want actual human connection, which is something money cannot buy. I do morally disapprove of a system that drives people into sex work to get by or get ahead.
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"/u/Due-Lie-8710 (OP) has awarded 7 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nThere's a song I like that speaks on this fairly poetically, so I'd like to start by just directly quoting it:\n\nSo when you bled on the bed as you fed those expectations, as a whore and not a human, you embraced with hesitation the very parameters of all you can be. Not a mother, not an aunt, not a sister who's not subdued. Because dignity's not physical, and your flesh means more than you.\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.",
">\n\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.\n\nFirst of all if you aren't trafficked it is just like another job, as for you both being seen as human , make sense hey aren't there to befriend to have sex , you are performing a service, it's like you watching football or a movie, you only see them as footballers ot actors , half of the time they don't care about their personal life, there are some jobs that prevent you from getting any high paying jobs or jobs that involve care , as for the people purchasing it , if you can't purchase it then why should they sell it , you don't actually support sex work, because that would mean accepting the consumer base ad well as the supplier",
">\n\nThat’s a really big if though, sex work isn’t exactly an industry where you will know for sure if the service you’re getting is consensual. individuals who are victims of sexual trafficking, coercion, or just life circumstance aren’t likely to just tell their “customers” if it isn’t consensual. they could endanger themselves or not be aware that they can say something. \nSeeing someone as an object vs seeing them as an individual with a job aren’t the same though? yes we recognize actors and football players by their career choice and how well they are at it, but they’re still people at the end of the day? that’s why they have fanbases, interviews, paparazzi, popularity on social media, movie adaptions of their life exist—people are interested in more than them just doing their job.\nA persons job is no reason to suddenly strip them of their humanity and rights granted them for being such, that kind of mentality is morally skewed and why a lot of people would not support sex work. plus you can’t say it makes sense for sex workers to be see as commodities only and then believe sex work will be consensual. the whole consent part comes from recognizing that this is another person who has their own boundaries and limits beyond just what you want.",
">\n\nokay, that’s a plumber and not a person you’re having sex with. unlike plumbing which is clean cut, sex can include multiple aspects of different kinks and fetishes. You can’t expect a sex worker to be okay with say participating in rape play, anal, scat, and a mirage of other kinks simply because they agreed to sex. Sex is not clean cut, there is more to it. There has to be a boundary somewhere, this is another person body not a pipe.",
">\n\nThat’s like the point? recognizing the boundary and proceeding from there by RESPECTING the boundary because they are another person and not some masturbatory object. What you just said was a consensual interaction. The initial point was that there is no consensual sex without respecting the party that’s giving as a person.",
">\n\nSo... there's a concept of a moral hazard. \nThere's literally no way for an individual to be certain that their prostitute is not being coerced/trafficked. Even if there are some special circumstances where it might be unlikely, certainty is still impossible, and most people frequenting prostitutes are not in those special circumstances.\nSomeone using their services is therefore extremely likely to be comfortable with risking that they are unknowingly raping someone. \nGenerally speaking, people find that disgusting.",
">\n\nIf you eat chocolate (even the stuff with the fair trade sticker) then there's no guarantee that it hasn't come from slave farms which are not uncommon. If you eat chocolate throughout your life then you are almost definitely contributing to slavery. If you visit a prostitute regularly then the chance they're being exploited is anywhere from functioninally 0% to 100%. So why treat the John who might be discerning with scorn and not the chocolate eater who is a much safer bet in having contributed to coerced labour.",
">\n\nIt's worth trying to avoid those situations, but ultimately it's a very false equivalence to hold people responsible for the actions of others, vs. their own personal actions.\nWhen you buy chocolate, you're not actually holding a gun to a slave, someone else is. The right answer to that is to lobby for worker protections for imported goods, and to try to end involuntary servitude within your country as well. \nWhen you have sex with a trafficked person, you personally literally raped them. If you don't have good evidence to know they aren't trafficked, you're personally ok with the possibility you're going to personally rape them. \nBoth might be considered bad. But it's a false equivalence.\nAnd sure... if someone is paying someone for sex when they are personal friends with them, and interact with them outside of prostitution enough to personally know that they aren't being trafficked... and you're sure they aren't lying, scorning them more than at most some light ribbing isn't justified. It's not like \"sugar daddies\" aren't a thing as well. At the very least much less disapprobation would be appropriate.",
">\n\nIn both cases, there is a customer receiving a service provided by a potentially enslaved person. They are morally equivalent. It makes no sense to say “sure I bought the slavery chocolate, but you can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”",
">\n\n\nyou can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”\n\nThe slavers actions are distinct from the consumers' actions for most things. \nThis is an actual important difference when it comes to prostitution. \nIgnoring that fundamental difference doesn't make it go away, and it's entirely reasonable for someone to make that distinction.",
">\n\nThe slaver and consumer are different people who take different actions in the prostitution scenario. The consumer in both scenarios is taking the risk of being immoral. If I force you to be my slave that’s still immoral whether or not I put you to work in my brothel or mine or factory or fishing boat. And if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever, it’s equivalent.",
">\n\n\nAnd if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever , it’s equivalent.\n\nThis is where the false equivalence comes in. \nSomeone making products with slave labor is not renting out a slave to the consumer so that they consumer can force them to perform mining for the consumer. They are enslaving the labor to create a product, and selling the product. Products don't have rights to violate. The only person violating the rights of the slave is the slaver.\nSomeone trafficking a victim is renting out that victim so that the consumer can rape them.",
">\n\nIf the sex is only contractual to you? Why not just \"hook up.\" Why pay? You will never be able to guarantee they are not being trafficked. If they are, they are not going to tell you. I think the idea of money exchanging hands for sex is the why most have a problem. The idea that you are giving a woman money for sex has been historically seen as her being a whore. \nI am not saying she is. I am saying that from the time it first exchanged hands, that is what it was. Men who could not find a woman, paid a woman. Why do you want others to see it differently? Yes, there will be outliers that will enjoy the work. But those are going to be ones that, like the escort, chose it, and charge what they want. Not the typical street hookers on the corner with pimps to pay. \nProve they are not trafficked, they work for themselves, they are clean (of both drugs and diseases - because they are taking care of themselves and being safe), and that they are a sex worker because they enjoy the work or that that chose the work. Then, hey! Pay 'em and get to it!",
">\n\nI think it is morally unhealthy to normalize it. Even though you have to be an adult to smoke weed, we definitely see weed as a normal thing to do in moderation compared to a few decades ago. This is how we would see prostitution if it was normalized. And I think weed has a lot less complications than legalizing prostitution. A LOT!\nSex work online is a lot safer and requires a lot less mental issues to engage in and promote. But even then, I know some sex workers (online type), and they are scarred by the stuff they have seen when it comes to their job. They have told me stories that are extremely disturbing. These are women who just do stuff by themselves. Not working with a porn company and other people.\nAlso, sex has a huge reputation for being violent and demoralizing towards women in general. I'd assume those numbers would be much higher in men looking to pay for sex. You'd have to have extremely strict and tight regulations for this sort of thing, which would take the fun out of it for a lot of people. And even then, there would still be many mistakes that would happen before we find out all the regulations that are needed. And I don't think we could ever make it mentally and physically safe for women.\nNow, do I think it should be decriminalized for prostitutes? Definitely. I don't see them as disgusting. I feel quite bad for them. Most of them were trafficked at a young age. Do I see men wanting to pay for sex as disgusting? Not necessarily. It depends on the person and the situation. However, this isn't a simple issue where if we just \"stop judging people,\" everything will be fine.",
">\n\nDecriminalizing prostitution for both those selling and buying is demonstrably safer for prostitutes. If it is criminal for the buyer but not the seller, the buyer is often highly defensive and paranoid about the seller, specifically the possibility that they may be working with law enforcement. The buyer will often push to do it in a highly isolated setting as well. These things increase violence that sex workers face, and the averages go down in places where it is decriminalized to both buy and sell. If you have a designated work place for it and no one needs to be distrustful and worried about being arrested, that is the safest situation for all involved. \nWe may disagree with buying it for whatever moral reason, but if we choose to criminalize the purchase of it, we are prioritizing punishing behavior we morally disagree with over prioritizing the safety of those involved, which I can't get behind.",
">\n\nBut there are so many more facets to the safety of legalizing it for the buyer other than them being pushy or wanting to do it in a hidden area. If we legalized it, it still wouldn't really help any of the points I made or is even something that is so overwhelmingly an issue compared to the points I made.",
">\n\nSo long as we have to work to live, all jobs are coercive, even sex work. I’m skeptical that there can ever be a consensual exchange within our current economic context.",
">\n\nExactly , I get sex is intimate but if you are willing to view sex work as any other job , you should be willing to treat it as such",
">\n\nSex work has certain occupational hazards that cannot be regulated away. OSHA (in the US) dictates that a person cannot be subject to bodily fluids without proper PPE in the workplace, and often johns just need to pay more to not wear a condom. Imagine a construction site paying workers more to not wear a hard hat. The greater potential for bodily harm is intrinsic to the work, and it will always be unsafe.",
">\n\nTrue but this doesn't really answer my question",
">\n\nMy point is that treating it like any other job is not ethically possible due to hazardous conditions",
">\n\nThis is a bad take.\nI’d wager prostitution doesn’t even rank in the top ten dangerous jobs by capita.",
">\n\nThat really depends. A gas station cashier likely has a higher risk of being killed. But a quick Google shows sex workers are thirty times more likely to get Aids than the general population. They're also at ridiculously high rates of risk to their mental health. Ptsd is common. Also, yes, sitting at a counter in a gas station is technically dangerous. But it is different type of danger compared to someone fucking them in the ass while shoving a sock in their mouth and calling them a dirty whore. When this happens to a prostitute, since she isn't dead, then all good right?! :) Her job isn't dangerous, she's still alive! And they're really not paid much. Average pay for a sex scene in porn for a woman is around $600, for the guy it's like a hundred. For prostitution you're looking at a hundred to two hundred dollars. \nAlso, if you're in the us. Good luck affording health insurance as an independent contractor engaged in sex work.",
">\n\nI’m not exactly impressed with the American system so if you’re criticising Americans health system then fuck yeah more power to you.\nYou raise fantastic points about there being non lethal dangers in sex work that are worth considering and harder to measure.\nThat being said, sit for a while and think about whether you think that sex workers are in a job so dangerous that it deserves its own category and shouldn’t even be allowed. (This is what the commenter I was responding to was claiming)\nI’m comfortable I’d ban lumberjack as a profession long before I considered banning prostitution based on relative level of danger and conditions.\nI don’t have a specific statistic but soldiers at an educated guess would probably be more likely to experience danger and mental issues but the commenter I responded to probably never thought for one second about banning soldiers on that basis.\nIt’s clear bias, being rationalised as something it isn’t.",
">\n\nIt's decriminalised where I live, which means women can arrange anything themselves. So you can have a strip club with a \"hotel\" above it. Basically 100% of the workers are foreign, from places like Ukraine. Russia, Moldova, Romania. Etc. It's a strange aspect which isn't often brought up. But\"legalizing \" almost always results on foreign workers undercutting any local workforce. How can a 26 year old American girl from the burbs compete with an 18 year Thai girl? One is fine doing work at basically the rates of a full time McDonald's employee, while the other isn't. And of course, that breeds the type of people you'd imagine running the business. Even in places like Amsterdam, where there's tons of regulation, you get the same trafficking you see anywhere else.\nSo morally. I've got zero problem. But I've just never seen a model that can actually ensure safety for everyone involved.",
">\n\nWell culture is everything isn't it? Of there wasn't so much sex tourism from places that have prostitution illegal there would probably be less demand wouldn't there? Less demand would make the whole industry safer imo due to the loss of money driving the search for foreign market girls\nLike imagine the whole world has a brothel just down the block. Does that make it more safe just by sheer volume and normality?",
">\n\nFirstly, i'm not religious, i'm sex-positive and the sex lives of strangers rarely concerns me. I don't think paying for these services makes you a \"bad\" person, nor a \"disgusting\" one.. but for me, it would affect your desirability to me as a partner. To me attraction is a big thing, and i'll be honest, I see it as kind of lame. Not morally corrupt but just ...desperate. \nI would want my partner to be someone that women wanted to have sex with, not the man that they had sex with as a purely profitable transaction. Whilst it's consensual, when you involve money or a benefit other than sex, the line slightly blurs, and I find it becomes icky. \nIt's not even that I think my partner should only have had strictly intimate and personable relations... but the question does spring to mind of \"is sex that has been paid for truly consensual? can you guarantee that?\" Even popular Pornstars who previously agreed to do porn and made careers out of it have stories where they later felt disgusted by what they've had to do but were so enamored by the money, they went through with it. Sex workers will ALWAYS sell a positive image to their clients, part of their job is to make you feel desired, but you never truly know the reality. \nAll in all, it can be seen as \"bad\" or \"disgusting\" because monetary rewards affects the lines of purely consensual sex. The same way it can be icky for a boss to have sex with the intern, the same way directors have sex with actresses that want to star in their movies, and the same way rockstars have sex with their fans. Doesn't make 'em rapists, but it's why people won't look at it as respectable.",
">\n\nyou aren’t sex positive if you think paying for sex is desperate.\ndoes paying for alcohol mean you’re desperate for happiness? some people want to have fun so they buy drinks, others find more fun in sex. as long as sex work is consensual and not the result of pimping or some other form of coercion then I don’t see any harm or how it would be desperate.\nthere are tangible benefits to buying sex vs finding it “naturally” that i don’t think you’re considering. \nwith sex workers you’re safer and don’t have to worry about pregnancy, theft, psychotic women, and other risks that come from random hookups with strangers or even casual dating. there’s also the whole “i don’t need to put time and effort into finding and flirting with someone” when it can be on demand. yea making food at home is usually cheaper and better tasting than takeout but sometimes you’re lazy and want a pizza delivered.",
">\n\nI’m generally sex positive to consensual sex between people. However, everything falls on a spectrum and I don’t think you have to have a certain view on every avenue to be as such. Much like you can love your job, your country or your friends but that doesn’t mean you can’t provide any forms of criticism nor must you love EVERY aspect of these things. \nI have no disdain for people who hook up on dating apps, clubs, attend sex parties etc. I will always believe sex workers should have right to practice and do so in a safe environment. I also wouldn’t stop their client base either, it’s not my business, but there are ethical implications and I’ve said my view from the perspective of my partner which naturally i hold to a more personable standard. I wouldn’t want to be with someone who puts their sexual desires above the possible implications involved in sex work. \nI do want to touch on your point that as long as it’s not coerced or forced, it’s okay. The ethical implication behind this is that when you involve money, this is not guaranteed. Not all clients will take the time to research the background and extra people involved behind the scenes. The women with pimps and who are trafficked won’t spill those beans to you. Again, there will always be exceptions to the rule. \nI understand that sex work is convenient to many but my perception is not swayed by the mere idea that paying for sex means you get to avoid having to flirt with women. Much like I can understand why people have no choice to purchase fast fashion and I’ll understand the reasoning but that does not mean I should ignore the child labour and poor conditions that make this possible. \nAll in all, I won’t stop you but I’m going to think it’s kinda lame. You can wear an item of clothing, I’ll defend you to wear that clothing and I won’t make you feel bad for wearing it.. but I may not like it myself.",
">\n\nReading your posts made me think of a bird preening it's feathers to attract a mate. I thought it was just you being obtuse untill you brought fashion into this lol\nYou really are just a pair of eyes arnt you. No complexity attached. \"I saw it in the window so I bought it! I didn't even care that it was 500$ I just wanted it because the other girls were eyeing it down and I just HAD to have it💅\"",
">\n\nI genuinely have no idea what you’re trying to convey. The topic of fashion was merely to represent that there are often complexities and nuance. So yes, I can be sex positive but I don’t necessarily have to agree with all the variances within the to topic of sex. \nI assume I’ve hit a nerve for your style of response.",
">\n\nNot sure about everywhere else but in America being as prostitution is illegal a lot of the situations the workers are in are really sad, depressing and predatory. If you take a look at the book “Pimp” by ice berg slim for example a lot of the industry isn’t the ideal some just wants to make money like any other job and the pimp is just a bodyguard/manger,\nA lot of it involves a tone of manipulation and dependency and when you add on the ones where safe sex isn’t a priority and the literal hundreds of partners you engage with in such a short time it all comes off as kinda gross.",
">\n\nSex, when a service, is not the same as any other service. There is a difference between driving a person somewhere in a taxi and having your face fucked and ejaculated on by a stranger. As many have stated before and as you can see in 99% of porn is that sex as a service is usually degrading towards women. Just look at the front page of any given porn site. Most of it is not, in any way, esteeming of the women participating. Look at goddamn blowjob videos. The women are not giving a blowjob - they are getting their face fucked. Extra points if they have to gag and be obviously physically uncomfortable and struggling to breathe. Dude it is just not the same as someone operating a forklift or making flower arrangements. Most of it is degrading and the more degrading the more klicks - the more people who frequent porn sites like it. And it's the same with prostitution. Read about what these women have experienced. It is plain awful. Sure if you are talking about a utopia where you can be 100% sure the prostitutes are there on their own terms and if every single customer is a loving, caring, gentle person taking care of the sex workers needs as much as their own - then yes, there would not be anything wrong with it. But that is just not how it is.\nHow hard is it, even in a healthy loving relationship, to always have both partners perfectly satisfied and met their needs sexually?\nSex is as intimate as human interaction can get and buying that from someone is taking all incentive away to treat the other person as good as you would treat a partner who you love and/or actively want to enjoy the time with you.\nAnd that is what disgusts people about people who frequent prostitutes. The possibility of being a person who, as long as they pay for something or feel like they've done their dues, doesn't give a shit about what the person on the other end is experiencing.\nedit: Because of other comments from OP I accused them of debating rather than discussing and suggested if they were seeking moral validation for what they do, which in itself was not part of a discussion really. I deleted that part because it serves no neutral purpose.",
">\n\nWell in this context not special but very very different, in the way that it is way more intimate, there's actually a part of ones body entering the others. There is exchange of bodily fluids. Those services are different from each other the same way as a massage is different to shoving items across a scanner, just times ten. One is naked, one experiences pleasure (or great pain) and one is not using their body to do something, they are having their body be used by someone else. That can leave physical bruises and mental scars because one is extremely vulnerable in the act.",
">\n\nMy view on it is that the act in itself is not wrong for anybody involved, but the character implication is what causes it to be met with disgust by some.\nIf you have money and you pay for sex from somebody who is willing, then it's no problem, but the issue comes when you delve into why they might be paying for sex.\nMany people experience sex in a consensual environment with a person who desires sex with them, and no money is involved. Many would view this as a very normal and important part of life.\nThe question that comes up subconsciously and/or consciously is \"why does this person need to pay for sex?\"\nIt could be that they have undeveloped social skills and this coild be deemed as a negative trait that needs to be worked on.\nAnother reason could be an atypically high sex drive, which could also be perceived as sex addiction.\nThese are not unlikely reasons for a person to pay a sex worker for sex and a judgement could be made before understanding more that they possess These sorts of traits that people simply have the desire to avoid.",
">\n\nThis is the correct answer. \nThe reason people look down on people who hire hookers has nothing to do with sex trafficking, or what really qualifies as consent, or any of the other comments in this thread. I think a good example is your iPhone. It is basically made with slave labor, but nobody really gives a shit. They just happily use their phone. If they actually did give a shit, they wouldn't buy iPhones. Also, prostitution has been around basically since the beginning of time. It has always been a part of human relationships and always will be.\nFor better or worse, the reason people look down on people who hire hookers is that it implies you are deficient in some way. If you were better looking or had better social skills or had more control over your base urges you would not need to hire a hooker. \nPersonally, I look at it like a wheelchair. I dont need a wheelchair and I really hope I never need one, but it is not fair (and downright cruel) for me to look down on someone who does use one. Are they deficient in some way? Yes. They can't walk. Do they deserve admonishment or judgement? No. Not at all.",
">\n\nYou're not paying too have sex with a prostitute. You're paying to use her body as a masturbatory aid.\nProstitution reduces women to being commodities, objects, things. Every other job, you're providing a skill to produce or exchange goods and services. Prostitution, the woman is the thing you're purchasing. The women are the commodities, they're not viewed as humen, they're viewed as consumable goods.",
">\n\nJust like almost every other Job, and any other form of sex work like strippers, onlyfans model , some e girl, girls who post theist traps on social media, so what makes those empowering and not this",
">\n\nStrippers, only fans, e-girls are not empowering. It's gross. When it comes down to it, they're sluts. And they're no better than their fuck-boy counterparts.",
">\n\nOK fair so the difference in worldview is what makes argumen unsound to you !delta",
">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/19jals80 (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards"
] |
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You just can never know for sure whether the sex worker is being trafficked or not.
This argument can be made for any form of low-skilled labor.
There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that sex work uses slavery more often than say construction work or weaving baskets.
Your argument applies just as easily to buying a shoe, because it could have been constructed by slaves.
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[
"/u/Due-Lie-8710 (OP) has awarded 7 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nThere's a song I like that speaks on this fairly poetically, so I'd like to start by just directly quoting it:\n\nSo when you bled on the bed as you fed those expectations, as a whore and not a human, you embraced with hesitation the very parameters of all you can be. Not a mother, not an aunt, not a sister who's not subdued. Because dignity's not physical, and your flesh means more than you.\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.",
">\n\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.\n\nFirst of all if you aren't trafficked it is just like another job, as for you both being seen as human , make sense hey aren't there to befriend to have sex , you are performing a service, it's like you watching football or a movie, you only see them as footballers ot actors , half of the time they don't care about their personal life, there are some jobs that prevent you from getting any high paying jobs or jobs that involve care , as for the people purchasing it , if you can't purchase it then why should they sell it , you don't actually support sex work, because that would mean accepting the consumer base ad well as the supplier",
">\n\nThat’s a really big if though, sex work isn’t exactly an industry where you will know for sure if the service you’re getting is consensual. individuals who are victims of sexual trafficking, coercion, or just life circumstance aren’t likely to just tell their “customers” if it isn’t consensual. they could endanger themselves or not be aware that they can say something. \nSeeing someone as an object vs seeing them as an individual with a job aren’t the same though? yes we recognize actors and football players by their career choice and how well they are at it, but they’re still people at the end of the day? that’s why they have fanbases, interviews, paparazzi, popularity on social media, movie adaptions of their life exist—people are interested in more than them just doing their job.\nA persons job is no reason to suddenly strip them of their humanity and rights granted them for being such, that kind of mentality is morally skewed and why a lot of people would not support sex work. plus you can’t say it makes sense for sex workers to be see as commodities only and then believe sex work will be consensual. the whole consent part comes from recognizing that this is another person who has their own boundaries and limits beyond just what you want.",
">\n\nokay, that’s a plumber and not a person you’re having sex with. unlike plumbing which is clean cut, sex can include multiple aspects of different kinks and fetishes. You can’t expect a sex worker to be okay with say participating in rape play, anal, scat, and a mirage of other kinks simply because they agreed to sex. Sex is not clean cut, there is more to it. There has to be a boundary somewhere, this is another person body not a pipe.",
">\n\nThat’s like the point? recognizing the boundary and proceeding from there by RESPECTING the boundary because they are another person and not some masturbatory object. What you just said was a consensual interaction. The initial point was that there is no consensual sex without respecting the party that’s giving as a person.",
">\n\nSo... there's a concept of a moral hazard. \nThere's literally no way for an individual to be certain that their prostitute is not being coerced/trafficked. Even if there are some special circumstances where it might be unlikely, certainty is still impossible, and most people frequenting prostitutes are not in those special circumstances.\nSomeone using their services is therefore extremely likely to be comfortable with risking that they are unknowingly raping someone. \nGenerally speaking, people find that disgusting.",
">\n\nIf you eat chocolate (even the stuff with the fair trade sticker) then there's no guarantee that it hasn't come from slave farms which are not uncommon. If you eat chocolate throughout your life then you are almost definitely contributing to slavery. If you visit a prostitute regularly then the chance they're being exploited is anywhere from functioninally 0% to 100%. So why treat the John who might be discerning with scorn and not the chocolate eater who is a much safer bet in having contributed to coerced labour.",
">\n\nIt's worth trying to avoid those situations, but ultimately it's a very false equivalence to hold people responsible for the actions of others, vs. their own personal actions.\nWhen you buy chocolate, you're not actually holding a gun to a slave, someone else is. The right answer to that is to lobby for worker protections for imported goods, and to try to end involuntary servitude within your country as well. \nWhen you have sex with a trafficked person, you personally literally raped them. If you don't have good evidence to know they aren't trafficked, you're personally ok with the possibility you're going to personally rape them. \nBoth might be considered bad. But it's a false equivalence.\nAnd sure... if someone is paying someone for sex when they are personal friends with them, and interact with them outside of prostitution enough to personally know that they aren't being trafficked... and you're sure they aren't lying, scorning them more than at most some light ribbing isn't justified. It's not like \"sugar daddies\" aren't a thing as well. At the very least much less disapprobation would be appropriate.",
">\n\nIn both cases, there is a customer receiving a service provided by a potentially enslaved person. They are morally equivalent. It makes no sense to say “sure I bought the slavery chocolate, but you can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”",
">\n\n\nyou can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”\n\nThe slavers actions are distinct from the consumers' actions for most things. \nThis is an actual important difference when it comes to prostitution. \nIgnoring that fundamental difference doesn't make it go away, and it's entirely reasonable for someone to make that distinction.",
">\n\nThe slaver and consumer are different people who take different actions in the prostitution scenario. The consumer in both scenarios is taking the risk of being immoral. If I force you to be my slave that’s still immoral whether or not I put you to work in my brothel or mine or factory or fishing boat. And if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever, it’s equivalent.",
">\n\n\nAnd if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever , it’s equivalent.\n\nThis is where the false equivalence comes in. \nSomeone making products with slave labor is not renting out a slave to the consumer so that they consumer can force them to perform mining for the consumer. They are enslaving the labor to create a product, and selling the product. Products don't have rights to violate. The only person violating the rights of the slave is the slaver.\nSomeone trafficking a victim is renting out that victim so that the consumer can rape them.",
">\n\nIf the sex is only contractual to you? Why not just \"hook up.\" Why pay? You will never be able to guarantee they are not being trafficked. If they are, they are not going to tell you. I think the idea of money exchanging hands for sex is the why most have a problem. The idea that you are giving a woman money for sex has been historically seen as her being a whore. \nI am not saying she is. I am saying that from the time it first exchanged hands, that is what it was. Men who could not find a woman, paid a woman. Why do you want others to see it differently? Yes, there will be outliers that will enjoy the work. But those are going to be ones that, like the escort, chose it, and charge what they want. Not the typical street hookers on the corner with pimps to pay. \nProve they are not trafficked, they work for themselves, they are clean (of both drugs and diseases - because they are taking care of themselves and being safe), and that they are a sex worker because they enjoy the work or that that chose the work. Then, hey! Pay 'em and get to it!",
">\n\nI think it is morally unhealthy to normalize it. Even though you have to be an adult to smoke weed, we definitely see weed as a normal thing to do in moderation compared to a few decades ago. This is how we would see prostitution if it was normalized. And I think weed has a lot less complications than legalizing prostitution. A LOT!\nSex work online is a lot safer and requires a lot less mental issues to engage in and promote. But even then, I know some sex workers (online type), and they are scarred by the stuff they have seen when it comes to their job. They have told me stories that are extremely disturbing. These are women who just do stuff by themselves. Not working with a porn company and other people.\nAlso, sex has a huge reputation for being violent and demoralizing towards women in general. I'd assume those numbers would be much higher in men looking to pay for sex. You'd have to have extremely strict and tight regulations for this sort of thing, which would take the fun out of it for a lot of people. And even then, there would still be many mistakes that would happen before we find out all the regulations that are needed. And I don't think we could ever make it mentally and physically safe for women.\nNow, do I think it should be decriminalized for prostitutes? Definitely. I don't see them as disgusting. I feel quite bad for them. Most of them were trafficked at a young age. Do I see men wanting to pay for sex as disgusting? Not necessarily. It depends on the person and the situation. However, this isn't a simple issue where if we just \"stop judging people,\" everything will be fine.",
">\n\nDecriminalizing prostitution for both those selling and buying is demonstrably safer for prostitutes. If it is criminal for the buyer but not the seller, the buyer is often highly defensive and paranoid about the seller, specifically the possibility that they may be working with law enforcement. The buyer will often push to do it in a highly isolated setting as well. These things increase violence that sex workers face, and the averages go down in places where it is decriminalized to both buy and sell. If you have a designated work place for it and no one needs to be distrustful and worried about being arrested, that is the safest situation for all involved. \nWe may disagree with buying it for whatever moral reason, but if we choose to criminalize the purchase of it, we are prioritizing punishing behavior we morally disagree with over prioritizing the safety of those involved, which I can't get behind.",
">\n\nBut there are so many more facets to the safety of legalizing it for the buyer other than them being pushy or wanting to do it in a hidden area. If we legalized it, it still wouldn't really help any of the points I made or is even something that is so overwhelmingly an issue compared to the points I made.",
">\n\nSo long as we have to work to live, all jobs are coercive, even sex work. I’m skeptical that there can ever be a consensual exchange within our current economic context.",
">\n\nExactly , I get sex is intimate but if you are willing to view sex work as any other job , you should be willing to treat it as such",
">\n\nSex work has certain occupational hazards that cannot be regulated away. OSHA (in the US) dictates that a person cannot be subject to bodily fluids without proper PPE in the workplace, and often johns just need to pay more to not wear a condom. Imagine a construction site paying workers more to not wear a hard hat. The greater potential for bodily harm is intrinsic to the work, and it will always be unsafe.",
">\n\nTrue but this doesn't really answer my question",
">\n\nMy point is that treating it like any other job is not ethically possible due to hazardous conditions",
">\n\nThis is a bad take.\nI’d wager prostitution doesn’t even rank in the top ten dangerous jobs by capita.",
">\n\nThat really depends. A gas station cashier likely has a higher risk of being killed. But a quick Google shows sex workers are thirty times more likely to get Aids than the general population. They're also at ridiculously high rates of risk to their mental health. Ptsd is common. Also, yes, sitting at a counter in a gas station is technically dangerous. But it is different type of danger compared to someone fucking them in the ass while shoving a sock in their mouth and calling them a dirty whore. When this happens to a prostitute, since she isn't dead, then all good right?! :) Her job isn't dangerous, she's still alive! And they're really not paid much. Average pay for a sex scene in porn for a woman is around $600, for the guy it's like a hundred. For prostitution you're looking at a hundred to two hundred dollars. \nAlso, if you're in the us. Good luck affording health insurance as an independent contractor engaged in sex work.",
">\n\nI’m not exactly impressed with the American system so if you’re criticising Americans health system then fuck yeah more power to you.\nYou raise fantastic points about there being non lethal dangers in sex work that are worth considering and harder to measure.\nThat being said, sit for a while and think about whether you think that sex workers are in a job so dangerous that it deserves its own category and shouldn’t even be allowed. (This is what the commenter I was responding to was claiming)\nI’m comfortable I’d ban lumberjack as a profession long before I considered banning prostitution based on relative level of danger and conditions.\nI don’t have a specific statistic but soldiers at an educated guess would probably be more likely to experience danger and mental issues but the commenter I responded to probably never thought for one second about banning soldiers on that basis.\nIt’s clear bias, being rationalised as something it isn’t.",
">\n\nIt's decriminalised where I live, which means women can arrange anything themselves. So you can have a strip club with a \"hotel\" above it. Basically 100% of the workers are foreign, from places like Ukraine. Russia, Moldova, Romania. Etc. It's a strange aspect which isn't often brought up. But\"legalizing \" almost always results on foreign workers undercutting any local workforce. How can a 26 year old American girl from the burbs compete with an 18 year Thai girl? One is fine doing work at basically the rates of a full time McDonald's employee, while the other isn't. And of course, that breeds the type of people you'd imagine running the business. Even in places like Amsterdam, where there's tons of regulation, you get the same trafficking you see anywhere else.\nSo morally. I've got zero problem. But I've just never seen a model that can actually ensure safety for everyone involved.",
">\n\nWell culture is everything isn't it? Of there wasn't so much sex tourism from places that have prostitution illegal there would probably be less demand wouldn't there? Less demand would make the whole industry safer imo due to the loss of money driving the search for foreign market girls\nLike imagine the whole world has a brothel just down the block. Does that make it more safe just by sheer volume and normality?",
">\n\nFirstly, i'm not religious, i'm sex-positive and the sex lives of strangers rarely concerns me. I don't think paying for these services makes you a \"bad\" person, nor a \"disgusting\" one.. but for me, it would affect your desirability to me as a partner. To me attraction is a big thing, and i'll be honest, I see it as kind of lame. Not morally corrupt but just ...desperate. \nI would want my partner to be someone that women wanted to have sex with, not the man that they had sex with as a purely profitable transaction. Whilst it's consensual, when you involve money or a benefit other than sex, the line slightly blurs, and I find it becomes icky. \nIt's not even that I think my partner should only have had strictly intimate and personable relations... but the question does spring to mind of \"is sex that has been paid for truly consensual? can you guarantee that?\" Even popular Pornstars who previously agreed to do porn and made careers out of it have stories where they later felt disgusted by what they've had to do but were so enamored by the money, they went through with it. Sex workers will ALWAYS sell a positive image to their clients, part of their job is to make you feel desired, but you never truly know the reality. \nAll in all, it can be seen as \"bad\" or \"disgusting\" because monetary rewards affects the lines of purely consensual sex. The same way it can be icky for a boss to have sex with the intern, the same way directors have sex with actresses that want to star in their movies, and the same way rockstars have sex with their fans. Doesn't make 'em rapists, but it's why people won't look at it as respectable.",
">\n\nyou aren’t sex positive if you think paying for sex is desperate.\ndoes paying for alcohol mean you’re desperate for happiness? some people want to have fun so they buy drinks, others find more fun in sex. as long as sex work is consensual and not the result of pimping or some other form of coercion then I don’t see any harm or how it would be desperate.\nthere are tangible benefits to buying sex vs finding it “naturally” that i don’t think you’re considering. \nwith sex workers you’re safer and don’t have to worry about pregnancy, theft, psychotic women, and other risks that come from random hookups with strangers or even casual dating. there’s also the whole “i don’t need to put time and effort into finding and flirting with someone” when it can be on demand. yea making food at home is usually cheaper and better tasting than takeout but sometimes you’re lazy and want a pizza delivered.",
">\n\nI’m generally sex positive to consensual sex between people. However, everything falls on a spectrum and I don’t think you have to have a certain view on every avenue to be as such. Much like you can love your job, your country or your friends but that doesn’t mean you can’t provide any forms of criticism nor must you love EVERY aspect of these things. \nI have no disdain for people who hook up on dating apps, clubs, attend sex parties etc. I will always believe sex workers should have right to practice and do so in a safe environment. I also wouldn’t stop their client base either, it’s not my business, but there are ethical implications and I’ve said my view from the perspective of my partner which naturally i hold to a more personable standard. I wouldn’t want to be with someone who puts their sexual desires above the possible implications involved in sex work. \nI do want to touch on your point that as long as it’s not coerced or forced, it’s okay. The ethical implication behind this is that when you involve money, this is not guaranteed. Not all clients will take the time to research the background and extra people involved behind the scenes. The women with pimps and who are trafficked won’t spill those beans to you. Again, there will always be exceptions to the rule. \nI understand that sex work is convenient to many but my perception is not swayed by the mere idea that paying for sex means you get to avoid having to flirt with women. Much like I can understand why people have no choice to purchase fast fashion and I’ll understand the reasoning but that does not mean I should ignore the child labour and poor conditions that make this possible. \nAll in all, I won’t stop you but I’m going to think it’s kinda lame. You can wear an item of clothing, I’ll defend you to wear that clothing and I won’t make you feel bad for wearing it.. but I may not like it myself.",
">\n\nReading your posts made me think of a bird preening it's feathers to attract a mate. I thought it was just you being obtuse untill you brought fashion into this lol\nYou really are just a pair of eyes arnt you. No complexity attached. \"I saw it in the window so I bought it! I didn't even care that it was 500$ I just wanted it because the other girls were eyeing it down and I just HAD to have it💅\"",
">\n\nI genuinely have no idea what you’re trying to convey. The topic of fashion was merely to represent that there are often complexities and nuance. So yes, I can be sex positive but I don’t necessarily have to agree with all the variances within the to topic of sex. \nI assume I’ve hit a nerve for your style of response.",
">\n\nNot sure about everywhere else but in America being as prostitution is illegal a lot of the situations the workers are in are really sad, depressing and predatory. If you take a look at the book “Pimp” by ice berg slim for example a lot of the industry isn’t the ideal some just wants to make money like any other job and the pimp is just a bodyguard/manger,\nA lot of it involves a tone of manipulation and dependency and when you add on the ones where safe sex isn’t a priority and the literal hundreds of partners you engage with in such a short time it all comes off as kinda gross.",
">\n\nSex, when a service, is not the same as any other service. There is a difference between driving a person somewhere in a taxi and having your face fucked and ejaculated on by a stranger. As many have stated before and as you can see in 99% of porn is that sex as a service is usually degrading towards women. Just look at the front page of any given porn site. Most of it is not, in any way, esteeming of the women participating. Look at goddamn blowjob videos. The women are not giving a blowjob - they are getting their face fucked. Extra points if they have to gag and be obviously physically uncomfortable and struggling to breathe. Dude it is just not the same as someone operating a forklift or making flower arrangements. Most of it is degrading and the more degrading the more klicks - the more people who frequent porn sites like it. And it's the same with prostitution. Read about what these women have experienced. It is plain awful. Sure if you are talking about a utopia where you can be 100% sure the prostitutes are there on their own terms and if every single customer is a loving, caring, gentle person taking care of the sex workers needs as much as their own - then yes, there would not be anything wrong with it. But that is just not how it is.\nHow hard is it, even in a healthy loving relationship, to always have both partners perfectly satisfied and met their needs sexually?\nSex is as intimate as human interaction can get and buying that from someone is taking all incentive away to treat the other person as good as you would treat a partner who you love and/or actively want to enjoy the time with you.\nAnd that is what disgusts people about people who frequent prostitutes. The possibility of being a person who, as long as they pay for something or feel like they've done their dues, doesn't give a shit about what the person on the other end is experiencing.\nedit: Because of other comments from OP I accused them of debating rather than discussing and suggested if they were seeking moral validation for what they do, which in itself was not part of a discussion really. I deleted that part because it serves no neutral purpose.",
">\n\nWell in this context not special but very very different, in the way that it is way more intimate, there's actually a part of ones body entering the others. There is exchange of bodily fluids. Those services are different from each other the same way as a massage is different to shoving items across a scanner, just times ten. One is naked, one experiences pleasure (or great pain) and one is not using their body to do something, they are having their body be used by someone else. That can leave physical bruises and mental scars because one is extremely vulnerable in the act.",
">\n\nMy view on it is that the act in itself is not wrong for anybody involved, but the character implication is what causes it to be met with disgust by some.\nIf you have money and you pay for sex from somebody who is willing, then it's no problem, but the issue comes when you delve into why they might be paying for sex.\nMany people experience sex in a consensual environment with a person who desires sex with them, and no money is involved. Many would view this as a very normal and important part of life.\nThe question that comes up subconsciously and/or consciously is \"why does this person need to pay for sex?\"\nIt could be that they have undeveloped social skills and this coild be deemed as a negative trait that needs to be worked on.\nAnother reason could be an atypically high sex drive, which could also be perceived as sex addiction.\nThese are not unlikely reasons for a person to pay a sex worker for sex and a judgement could be made before understanding more that they possess These sorts of traits that people simply have the desire to avoid.",
">\n\nThis is the correct answer. \nThe reason people look down on people who hire hookers has nothing to do with sex trafficking, or what really qualifies as consent, or any of the other comments in this thread. I think a good example is your iPhone. It is basically made with slave labor, but nobody really gives a shit. They just happily use their phone. If they actually did give a shit, they wouldn't buy iPhones. Also, prostitution has been around basically since the beginning of time. It has always been a part of human relationships and always will be.\nFor better or worse, the reason people look down on people who hire hookers is that it implies you are deficient in some way. If you were better looking or had better social skills or had more control over your base urges you would not need to hire a hooker. \nPersonally, I look at it like a wheelchair. I dont need a wheelchair and I really hope I never need one, but it is not fair (and downright cruel) for me to look down on someone who does use one. Are they deficient in some way? Yes. They can't walk. Do they deserve admonishment or judgement? No. Not at all.",
">\n\nYou're not paying too have sex with a prostitute. You're paying to use her body as a masturbatory aid.\nProstitution reduces women to being commodities, objects, things. Every other job, you're providing a skill to produce or exchange goods and services. Prostitution, the woman is the thing you're purchasing. The women are the commodities, they're not viewed as humen, they're viewed as consumable goods.",
">\n\nJust like almost every other Job, and any other form of sex work like strippers, onlyfans model , some e girl, girls who post theist traps on social media, so what makes those empowering and not this",
">\n\nStrippers, only fans, e-girls are not empowering. It's gross. When it comes down to it, they're sluts. And they're no better than their fuck-boy counterparts.",
">\n\nOK fair so the difference in worldview is what makes argumen unsound to you !delta",
">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/19jals80 (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nYou just can never know for sure whether the sex worker is being trafficked or not. You can't assume they'd tell you the truth if you asked. They might endanger themselves by telling you the truth. The sex worker wants money, and is willing to have some sexual contact with you in order to get the money. But fundamentally, they're permitting you to do something to their body that they do not want in and of itself. Therefore, their consent is dubious and conditional upon your payment. To me, that's not sufficient consent. I want someone I'm having sex with to genuinely, enthusiastically want to have sex with me for the sole purpose of enjoying sex with me. I don't want to use people as means to ends, and I don't want to be used as a means to anyone else's ends.\nI don't morally disapprove of sex work. I just wouldn't support it because it doesn't provide a good or service that interests me. I want actual human connection, which is something money cannot buy. I do morally disapprove of a system that drives people into sex work to get by or get ahead."
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Your whataboutism does nothing to resolve the moral question.
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"/u/Due-Lie-8710 (OP) has awarded 7 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nThere's a song I like that speaks on this fairly poetically, so I'd like to start by just directly quoting it:\n\nSo when you bled on the bed as you fed those expectations, as a whore and not a human, you embraced with hesitation the very parameters of all you can be. Not a mother, not an aunt, not a sister who's not subdued. Because dignity's not physical, and your flesh means more than you.\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.",
">\n\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.\n\nFirst of all if you aren't trafficked it is just like another job, as for you both being seen as human , make sense hey aren't there to befriend to have sex , you are performing a service, it's like you watching football or a movie, you only see them as footballers ot actors , half of the time they don't care about their personal life, there are some jobs that prevent you from getting any high paying jobs or jobs that involve care , as for the people purchasing it , if you can't purchase it then why should they sell it , you don't actually support sex work, because that would mean accepting the consumer base ad well as the supplier",
">\n\nThat’s a really big if though, sex work isn’t exactly an industry where you will know for sure if the service you’re getting is consensual. individuals who are victims of sexual trafficking, coercion, or just life circumstance aren’t likely to just tell their “customers” if it isn’t consensual. they could endanger themselves or not be aware that they can say something. \nSeeing someone as an object vs seeing them as an individual with a job aren’t the same though? yes we recognize actors and football players by their career choice and how well they are at it, but they’re still people at the end of the day? that’s why they have fanbases, interviews, paparazzi, popularity on social media, movie adaptions of their life exist—people are interested in more than them just doing their job.\nA persons job is no reason to suddenly strip them of their humanity and rights granted them for being such, that kind of mentality is morally skewed and why a lot of people would not support sex work. plus you can’t say it makes sense for sex workers to be see as commodities only and then believe sex work will be consensual. the whole consent part comes from recognizing that this is another person who has their own boundaries and limits beyond just what you want.",
">\n\nokay, that’s a plumber and not a person you’re having sex with. unlike plumbing which is clean cut, sex can include multiple aspects of different kinks and fetishes. You can’t expect a sex worker to be okay with say participating in rape play, anal, scat, and a mirage of other kinks simply because they agreed to sex. Sex is not clean cut, there is more to it. There has to be a boundary somewhere, this is another person body not a pipe.",
">\n\nThat’s like the point? recognizing the boundary and proceeding from there by RESPECTING the boundary because they are another person and not some masturbatory object. What you just said was a consensual interaction. The initial point was that there is no consensual sex without respecting the party that’s giving as a person.",
">\n\nSo... there's a concept of a moral hazard. \nThere's literally no way for an individual to be certain that their prostitute is not being coerced/trafficked. Even if there are some special circumstances where it might be unlikely, certainty is still impossible, and most people frequenting prostitutes are not in those special circumstances.\nSomeone using their services is therefore extremely likely to be comfortable with risking that they are unknowingly raping someone. \nGenerally speaking, people find that disgusting.",
">\n\nIf you eat chocolate (even the stuff with the fair trade sticker) then there's no guarantee that it hasn't come from slave farms which are not uncommon. If you eat chocolate throughout your life then you are almost definitely contributing to slavery. If you visit a prostitute regularly then the chance they're being exploited is anywhere from functioninally 0% to 100%. So why treat the John who might be discerning with scorn and not the chocolate eater who is a much safer bet in having contributed to coerced labour.",
">\n\nIt's worth trying to avoid those situations, but ultimately it's a very false equivalence to hold people responsible for the actions of others, vs. their own personal actions.\nWhen you buy chocolate, you're not actually holding a gun to a slave, someone else is. The right answer to that is to lobby for worker protections for imported goods, and to try to end involuntary servitude within your country as well. \nWhen you have sex with a trafficked person, you personally literally raped them. If you don't have good evidence to know they aren't trafficked, you're personally ok with the possibility you're going to personally rape them. \nBoth might be considered bad. But it's a false equivalence.\nAnd sure... if someone is paying someone for sex when they are personal friends with them, and interact with them outside of prostitution enough to personally know that they aren't being trafficked... and you're sure they aren't lying, scorning them more than at most some light ribbing isn't justified. It's not like \"sugar daddies\" aren't a thing as well. At the very least much less disapprobation would be appropriate.",
">\n\nIn both cases, there is a customer receiving a service provided by a potentially enslaved person. They are morally equivalent. It makes no sense to say “sure I bought the slavery chocolate, but you can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”",
">\n\n\nyou can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”\n\nThe slavers actions are distinct from the consumers' actions for most things. \nThis is an actual important difference when it comes to prostitution. \nIgnoring that fundamental difference doesn't make it go away, and it's entirely reasonable for someone to make that distinction.",
">\n\nThe slaver and consumer are different people who take different actions in the prostitution scenario. The consumer in both scenarios is taking the risk of being immoral. If I force you to be my slave that’s still immoral whether or not I put you to work in my brothel or mine or factory or fishing boat. And if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever, it’s equivalent.",
">\n\n\nAnd if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever , it’s equivalent.\n\nThis is where the false equivalence comes in. \nSomeone making products with slave labor is not renting out a slave to the consumer so that they consumer can force them to perform mining for the consumer. They are enslaving the labor to create a product, and selling the product. Products don't have rights to violate. The only person violating the rights of the slave is the slaver.\nSomeone trafficking a victim is renting out that victim so that the consumer can rape them.",
">\n\nIf the sex is only contractual to you? Why not just \"hook up.\" Why pay? You will never be able to guarantee they are not being trafficked. If they are, they are not going to tell you. I think the idea of money exchanging hands for sex is the why most have a problem. The idea that you are giving a woman money for sex has been historically seen as her being a whore. \nI am not saying she is. I am saying that from the time it first exchanged hands, that is what it was. Men who could not find a woman, paid a woman. Why do you want others to see it differently? Yes, there will be outliers that will enjoy the work. But those are going to be ones that, like the escort, chose it, and charge what they want. Not the typical street hookers on the corner with pimps to pay. \nProve they are not trafficked, they work for themselves, they are clean (of both drugs and diseases - because they are taking care of themselves and being safe), and that they are a sex worker because they enjoy the work or that that chose the work. Then, hey! Pay 'em and get to it!",
">\n\nI think it is morally unhealthy to normalize it. Even though you have to be an adult to smoke weed, we definitely see weed as a normal thing to do in moderation compared to a few decades ago. This is how we would see prostitution if it was normalized. And I think weed has a lot less complications than legalizing prostitution. A LOT!\nSex work online is a lot safer and requires a lot less mental issues to engage in and promote. But even then, I know some sex workers (online type), and they are scarred by the stuff they have seen when it comes to their job. They have told me stories that are extremely disturbing. These are women who just do stuff by themselves. Not working with a porn company and other people.\nAlso, sex has a huge reputation for being violent and demoralizing towards women in general. I'd assume those numbers would be much higher in men looking to pay for sex. You'd have to have extremely strict and tight regulations for this sort of thing, which would take the fun out of it for a lot of people. And even then, there would still be many mistakes that would happen before we find out all the regulations that are needed. And I don't think we could ever make it mentally and physically safe for women.\nNow, do I think it should be decriminalized for prostitutes? Definitely. I don't see them as disgusting. I feel quite bad for them. Most of them were trafficked at a young age. Do I see men wanting to pay for sex as disgusting? Not necessarily. It depends on the person and the situation. However, this isn't a simple issue where if we just \"stop judging people,\" everything will be fine.",
">\n\nDecriminalizing prostitution for both those selling and buying is demonstrably safer for prostitutes. If it is criminal for the buyer but not the seller, the buyer is often highly defensive and paranoid about the seller, specifically the possibility that they may be working with law enforcement. The buyer will often push to do it in a highly isolated setting as well. These things increase violence that sex workers face, and the averages go down in places where it is decriminalized to both buy and sell. If you have a designated work place for it and no one needs to be distrustful and worried about being arrested, that is the safest situation for all involved. \nWe may disagree with buying it for whatever moral reason, but if we choose to criminalize the purchase of it, we are prioritizing punishing behavior we morally disagree with over prioritizing the safety of those involved, which I can't get behind.",
">\n\nBut there are so many more facets to the safety of legalizing it for the buyer other than them being pushy or wanting to do it in a hidden area. If we legalized it, it still wouldn't really help any of the points I made or is even something that is so overwhelmingly an issue compared to the points I made.",
">\n\nSo long as we have to work to live, all jobs are coercive, even sex work. I’m skeptical that there can ever be a consensual exchange within our current economic context.",
">\n\nExactly , I get sex is intimate but if you are willing to view sex work as any other job , you should be willing to treat it as such",
">\n\nSex work has certain occupational hazards that cannot be regulated away. OSHA (in the US) dictates that a person cannot be subject to bodily fluids without proper PPE in the workplace, and often johns just need to pay more to not wear a condom. Imagine a construction site paying workers more to not wear a hard hat. The greater potential for bodily harm is intrinsic to the work, and it will always be unsafe.",
">\n\nTrue but this doesn't really answer my question",
">\n\nMy point is that treating it like any other job is not ethically possible due to hazardous conditions",
">\n\nThis is a bad take.\nI’d wager prostitution doesn’t even rank in the top ten dangerous jobs by capita.",
">\n\nThat really depends. A gas station cashier likely has a higher risk of being killed. But a quick Google shows sex workers are thirty times more likely to get Aids than the general population. They're also at ridiculously high rates of risk to their mental health. Ptsd is common. Also, yes, sitting at a counter in a gas station is technically dangerous. But it is different type of danger compared to someone fucking them in the ass while shoving a sock in their mouth and calling them a dirty whore. When this happens to a prostitute, since she isn't dead, then all good right?! :) Her job isn't dangerous, she's still alive! And they're really not paid much. Average pay for a sex scene in porn for a woman is around $600, for the guy it's like a hundred. For prostitution you're looking at a hundred to two hundred dollars. \nAlso, if you're in the us. Good luck affording health insurance as an independent contractor engaged in sex work.",
">\n\nI’m not exactly impressed with the American system so if you’re criticising Americans health system then fuck yeah more power to you.\nYou raise fantastic points about there being non lethal dangers in sex work that are worth considering and harder to measure.\nThat being said, sit for a while and think about whether you think that sex workers are in a job so dangerous that it deserves its own category and shouldn’t even be allowed. (This is what the commenter I was responding to was claiming)\nI’m comfortable I’d ban lumberjack as a profession long before I considered banning prostitution based on relative level of danger and conditions.\nI don’t have a specific statistic but soldiers at an educated guess would probably be more likely to experience danger and mental issues but the commenter I responded to probably never thought for one second about banning soldiers on that basis.\nIt’s clear bias, being rationalised as something it isn’t.",
">\n\nIt's decriminalised where I live, which means women can arrange anything themselves. So you can have a strip club with a \"hotel\" above it. Basically 100% of the workers are foreign, from places like Ukraine. Russia, Moldova, Romania. Etc. It's a strange aspect which isn't often brought up. But\"legalizing \" almost always results on foreign workers undercutting any local workforce. How can a 26 year old American girl from the burbs compete with an 18 year Thai girl? One is fine doing work at basically the rates of a full time McDonald's employee, while the other isn't. And of course, that breeds the type of people you'd imagine running the business. Even in places like Amsterdam, where there's tons of regulation, you get the same trafficking you see anywhere else.\nSo morally. I've got zero problem. But I've just never seen a model that can actually ensure safety for everyone involved.",
">\n\nWell culture is everything isn't it? Of there wasn't so much sex tourism from places that have prostitution illegal there would probably be less demand wouldn't there? Less demand would make the whole industry safer imo due to the loss of money driving the search for foreign market girls\nLike imagine the whole world has a brothel just down the block. Does that make it more safe just by sheer volume and normality?",
">\n\nFirstly, i'm not religious, i'm sex-positive and the sex lives of strangers rarely concerns me. I don't think paying for these services makes you a \"bad\" person, nor a \"disgusting\" one.. but for me, it would affect your desirability to me as a partner. To me attraction is a big thing, and i'll be honest, I see it as kind of lame. Not morally corrupt but just ...desperate. \nI would want my partner to be someone that women wanted to have sex with, not the man that they had sex with as a purely profitable transaction. Whilst it's consensual, when you involve money or a benefit other than sex, the line slightly blurs, and I find it becomes icky. \nIt's not even that I think my partner should only have had strictly intimate and personable relations... but the question does spring to mind of \"is sex that has been paid for truly consensual? can you guarantee that?\" Even popular Pornstars who previously agreed to do porn and made careers out of it have stories where they later felt disgusted by what they've had to do but were so enamored by the money, they went through with it. Sex workers will ALWAYS sell a positive image to their clients, part of their job is to make you feel desired, but you never truly know the reality. \nAll in all, it can be seen as \"bad\" or \"disgusting\" because monetary rewards affects the lines of purely consensual sex. The same way it can be icky for a boss to have sex with the intern, the same way directors have sex with actresses that want to star in their movies, and the same way rockstars have sex with their fans. Doesn't make 'em rapists, but it's why people won't look at it as respectable.",
">\n\nyou aren’t sex positive if you think paying for sex is desperate.\ndoes paying for alcohol mean you’re desperate for happiness? some people want to have fun so they buy drinks, others find more fun in sex. as long as sex work is consensual and not the result of pimping or some other form of coercion then I don’t see any harm or how it would be desperate.\nthere are tangible benefits to buying sex vs finding it “naturally” that i don’t think you’re considering. \nwith sex workers you’re safer and don’t have to worry about pregnancy, theft, psychotic women, and other risks that come from random hookups with strangers or even casual dating. there’s also the whole “i don’t need to put time and effort into finding and flirting with someone” when it can be on demand. yea making food at home is usually cheaper and better tasting than takeout but sometimes you’re lazy and want a pizza delivered.",
">\n\nI’m generally sex positive to consensual sex between people. However, everything falls on a spectrum and I don’t think you have to have a certain view on every avenue to be as such. Much like you can love your job, your country or your friends but that doesn’t mean you can’t provide any forms of criticism nor must you love EVERY aspect of these things. \nI have no disdain for people who hook up on dating apps, clubs, attend sex parties etc. I will always believe sex workers should have right to practice and do so in a safe environment. I also wouldn’t stop their client base either, it’s not my business, but there are ethical implications and I’ve said my view from the perspective of my partner which naturally i hold to a more personable standard. I wouldn’t want to be with someone who puts their sexual desires above the possible implications involved in sex work. \nI do want to touch on your point that as long as it’s not coerced or forced, it’s okay. The ethical implication behind this is that when you involve money, this is not guaranteed. Not all clients will take the time to research the background and extra people involved behind the scenes. The women with pimps and who are trafficked won’t spill those beans to you. Again, there will always be exceptions to the rule. \nI understand that sex work is convenient to many but my perception is not swayed by the mere idea that paying for sex means you get to avoid having to flirt with women. Much like I can understand why people have no choice to purchase fast fashion and I’ll understand the reasoning but that does not mean I should ignore the child labour and poor conditions that make this possible. \nAll in all, I won’t stop you but I’m going to think it’s kinda lame. You can wear an item of clothing, I’ll defend you to wear that clothing and I won’t make you feel bad for wearing it.. but I may not like it myself.",
">\n\nReading your posts made me think of a bird preening it's feathers to attract a mate. I thought it was just you being obtuse untill you brought fashion into this lol\nYou really are just a pair of eyes arnt you. No complexity attached. \"I saw it in the window so I bought it! I didn't even care that it was 500$ I just wanted it because the other girls were eyeing it down and I just HAD to have it💅\"",
">\n\nI genuinely have no idea what you’re trying to convey. The topic of fashion was merely to represent that there are often complexities and nuance. So yes, I can be sex positive but I don’t necessarily have to agree with all the variances within the to topic of sex. \nI assume I’ve hit a nerve for your style of response.",
">\n\nNot sure about everywhere else but in America being as prostitution is illegal a lot of the situations the workers are in are really sad, depressing and predatory. If you take a look at the book “Pimp” by ice berg slim for example a lot of the industry isn’t the ideal some just wants to make money like any other job and the pimp is just a bodyguard/manger,\nA lot of it involves a tone of manipulation and dependency and when you add on the ones where safe sex isn’t a priority and the literal hundreds of partners you engage with in such a short time it all comes off as kinda gross.",
">\n\nSex, when a service, is not the same as any other service. There is a difference between driving a person somewhere in a taxi and having your face fucked and ejaculated on by a stranger. As many have stated before and as you can see in 99% of porn is that sex as a service is usually degrading towards women. Just look at the front page of any given porn site. Most of it is not, in any way, esteeming of the women participating. Look at goddamn blowjob videos. The women are not giving a blowjob - they are getting their face fucked. Extra points if they have to gag and be obviously physically uncomfortable and struggling to breathe. Dude it is just not the same as someone operating a forklift or making flower arrangements. Most of it is degrading and the more degrading the more klicks - the more people who frequent porn sites like it. And it's the same with prostitution. Read about what these women have experienced. It is plain awful. Sure if you are talking about a utopia where you can be 100% sure the prostitutes are there on their own terms and if every single customer is a loving, caring, gentle person taking care of the sex workers needs as much as their own - then yes, there would not be anything wrong with it. But that is just not how it is.\nHow hard is it, even in a healthy loving relationship, to always have both partners perfectly satisfied and met their needs sexually?\nSex is as intimate as human interaction can get and buying that from someone is taking all incentive away to treat the other person as good as you would treat a partner who you love and/or actively want to enjoy the time with you.\nAnd that is what disgusts people about people who frequent prostitutes. The possibility of being a person who, as long as they pay for something or feel like they've done their dues, doesn't give a shit about what the person on the other end is experiencing.\nedit: Because of other comments from OP I accused them of debating rather than discussing and suggested if they were seeking moral validation for what they do, which in itself was not part of a discussion really. I deleted that part because it serves no neutral purpose.",
">\n\nWell in this context not special but very very different, in the way that it is way more intimate, there's actually a part of ones body entering the others. There is exchange of bodily fluids. Those services are different from each other the same way as a massage is different to shoving items across a scanner, just times ten. One is naked, one experiences pleasure (or great pain) and one is not using their body to do something, they are having their body be used by someone else. That can leave physical bruises and mental scars because one is extremely vulnerable in the act.",
">\n\nMy view on it is that the act in itself is not wrong for anybody involved, but the character implication is what causes it to be met with disgust by some.\nIf you have money and you pay for sex from somebody who is willing, then it's no problem, but the issue comes when you delve into why they might be paying for sex.\nMany people experience sex in a consensual environment with a person who desires sex with them, and no money is involved. Many would view this as a very normal and important part of life.\nThe question that comes up subconsciously and/or consciously is \"why does this person need to pay for sex?\"\nIt could be that they have undeveloped social skills and this coild be deemed as a negative trait that needs to be worked on.\nAnother reason could be an atypically high sex drive, which could also be perceived as sex addiction.\nThese are not unlikely reasons for a person to pay a sex worker for sex and a judgement could be made before understanding more that they possess These sorts of traits that people simply have the desire to avoid.",
">\n\nThis is the correct answer. \nThe reason people look down on people who hire hookers has nothing to do with sex trafficking, or what really qualifies as consent, or any of the other comments in this thread. I think a good example is your iPhone. It is basically made with slave labor, but nobody really gives a shit. They just happily use their phone. If they actually did give a shit, they wouldn't buy iPhones. Also, prostitution has been around basically since the beginning of time. It has always been a part of human relationships and always will be.\nFor better or worse, the reason people look down on people who hire hookers is that it implies you are deficient in some way. If you were better looking or had better social skills or had more control over your base urges you would not need to hire a hooker. \nPersonally, I look at it like a wheelchair. I dont need a wheelchair and I really hope I never need one, but it is not fair (and downright cruel) for me to look down on someone who does use one. Are they deficient in some way? Yes. They can't walk. Do they deserve admonishment or judgement? No. Not at all.",
">\n\nYou're not paying too have sex with a prostitute. You're paying to use her body as a masturbatory aid.\nProstitution reduces women to being commodities, objects, things. Every other job, you're providing a skill to produce or exchange goods and services. Prostitution, the woman is the thing you're purchasing. The women are the commodities, they're not viewed as humen, they're viewed as consumable goods.",
">\n\nJust like almost every other Job, and any other form of sex work like strippers, onlyfans model , some e girl, girls who post theist traps on social media, so what makes those empowering and not this",
">\n\nStrippers, only fans, e-girls are not empowering. It's gross. When it comes down to it, they're sluts. And they're no better than their fuck-boy counterparts.",
">\n\nOK fair so the difference in worldview is what makes argumen unsound to you !delta",
">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/19jals80 (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nYou just can never know for sure whether the sex worker is being trafficked or not. You can't assume they'd tell you the truth if you asked. They might endanger themselves by telling you the truth. The sex worker wants money, and is willing to have some sexual contact with you in order to get the money. But fundamentally, they're permitting you to do something to their body that they do not want in and of itself. Therefore, their consent is dubious and conditional upon your payment. To me, that's not sufficient consent. I want someone I'm having sex with to genuinely, enthusiastically want to have sex with me for the sole purpose of enjoying sex with me. I don't want to use people as means to ends, and I don't want to be used as a means to anyone else's ends.\nI don't morally disapprove of sex work. I just wouldn't support it because it doesn't provide a good or service that interests me. I want actual human connection, which is something money cannot buy. I do morally disapprove of a system that drives people into sex work to get by or get ahead.",
">\n\n\nYou just can never know for sure whether the sex worker is being trafficked or not. \n\nThis argument can be made for any form of low-skilled labor.\nThere is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that sex work uses slavery more often than say construction work or weaving baskets.\nYour argument applies just as easily to buying a shoe, because it could have been constructed by slaves."
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“whataboutism” is the new trendy defence for people who've been shown a reductiō ad absurdum it seems.
I'm showing that your argument can just as easily be used to argue the absurd, and that therefore it can't hold much water. Unless one were to believe in the absurd, and would believe that there is a problem with buying shoes or about any product.
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[
"/u/Due-Lie-8710 (OP) has awarded 7 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nThere's a song I like that speaks on this fairly poetically, so I'd like to start by just directly quoting it:\n\nSo when you bled on the bed as you fed those expectations, as a whore and not a human, you embraced with hesitation the very parameters of all you can be. Not a mother, not an aunt, not a sister who's not subdued. Because dignity's not physical, and your flesh means more than you.\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.",
">\n\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.\n\nFirst of all if you aren't trafficked it is just like another job, as for you both being seen as human , make sense hey aren't there to befriend to have sex , you are performing a service, it's like you watching football or a movie, you only see them as footballers ot actors , half of the time they don't care about their personal life, there are some jobs that prevent you from getting any high paying jobs or jobs that involve care , as for the people purchasing it , if you can't purchase it then why should they sell it , you don't actually support sex work, because that would mean accepting the consumer base ad well as the supplier",
">\n\nThat’s a really big if though, sex work isn’t exactly an industry where you will know for sure if the service you’re getting is consensual. individuals who are victims of sexual trafficking, coercion, or just life circumstance aren’t likely to just tell their “customers” if it isn’t consensual. they could endanger themselves or not be aware that they can say something. \nSeeing someone as an object vs seeing them as an individual with a job aren’t the same though? yes we recognize actors and football players by their career choice and how well they are at it, but they’re still people at the end of the day? that’s why they have fanbases, interviews, paparazzi, popularity on social media, movie adaptions of their life exist—people are interested in more than them just doing their job.\nA persons job is no reason to suddenly strip them of their humanity and rights granted them for being such, that kind of mentality is morally skewed and why a lot of people would not support sex work. plus you can’t say it makes sense for sex workers to be see as commodities only and then believe sex work will be consensual. the whole consent part comes from recognizing that this is another person who has their own boundaries and limits beyond just what you want.",
">\n\nokay, that’s a plumber and not a person you’re having sex with. unlike plumbing which is clean cut, sex can include multiple aspects of different kinks and fetishes. You can’t expect a sex worker to be okay with say participating in rape play, anal, scat, and a mirage of other kinks simply because they agreed to sex. Sex is not clean cut, there is more to it. There has to be a boundary somewhere, this is another person body not a pipe.",
">\n\nThat’s like the point? recognizing the boundary and proceeding from there by RESPECTING the boundary because they are another person and not some masturbatory object. What you just said was a consensual interaction. The initial point was that there is no consensual sex without respecting the party that’s giving as a person.",
">\n\nSo... there's a concept of a moral hazard. \nThere's literally no way for an individual to be certain that their prostitute is not being coerced/trafficked. Even if there are some special circumstances where it might be unlikely, certainty is still impossible, and most people frequenting prostitutes are not in those special circumstances.\nSomeone using their services is therefore extremely likely to be comfortable with risking that they are unknowingly raping someone. \nGenerally speaking, people find that disgusting.",
">\n\nIf you eat chocolate (even the stuff with the fair trade sticker) then there's no guarantee that it hasn't come from slave farms which are not uncommon. If you eat chocolate throughout your life then you are almost definitely contributing to slavery. If you visit a prostitute regularly then the chance they're being exploited is anywhere from functioninally 0% to 100%. So why treat the John who might be discerning with scorn and not the chocolate eater who is a much safer bet in having contributed to coerced labour.",
">\n\nIt's worth trying to avoid those situations, but ultimately it's a very false equivalence to hold people responsible for the actions of others, vs. their own personal actions.\nWhen you buy chocolate, you're not actually holding a gun to a slave, someone else is. The right answer to that is to lobby for worker protections for imported goods, and to try to end involuntary servitude within your country as well. \nWhen you have sex with a trafficked person, you personally literally raped them. If you don't have good evidence to know they aren't trafficked, you're personally ok with the possibility you're going to personally rape them. \nBoth might be considered bad. But it's a false equivalence.\nAnd sure... if someone is paying someone for sex when they are personal friends with them, and interact with them outside of prostitution enough to personally know that they aren't being trafficked... and you're sure they aren't lying, scorning them more than at most some light ribbing isn't justified. It's not like \"sugar daddies\" aren't a thing as well. At the very least much less disapprobation would be appropriate.",
">\n\nIn both cases, there is a customer receiving a service provided by a potentially enslaved person. They are morally equivalent. It makes no sense to say “sure I bought the slavery chocolate, but you can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”",
">\n\n\nyou can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”\n\nThe slavers actions are distinct from the consumers' actions for most things. \nThis is an actual important difference when it comes to prostitution. \nIgnoring that fundamental difference doesn't make it go away, and it's entirely reasonable for someone to make that distinction.",
">\n\nThe slaver and consumer are different people who take different actions in the prostitution scenario. The consumer in both scenarios is taking the risk of being immoral. If I force you to be my slave that’s still immoral whether or not I put you to work in my brothel or mine or factory or fishing boat. And if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever, it’s equivalent.",
">\n\n\nAnd if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever , it’s equivalent.\n\nThis is where the false equivalence comes in. \nSomeone making products with slave labor is not renting out a slave to the consumer so that they consumer can force them to perform mining for the consumer. They are enslaving the labor to create a product, and selling the product. Products don't have rights to violate. The only person violating the rights of the slave is the slaver.\nSomeone trafficking a victim is renting out that victim so that the consumer can rape them.",
">\n\nIf the sex is only contractual to you? Why not just \"hook up.\" Why pay? You will never be able to guarantee they are not being trafficked. If they are, they are not going to tell you. I think the idea of money exchanging hands for sex is the why most have a problem. The idea that you are giving a woman money for sex has been historically seen as her being a whore. \nI am not saying she is. I am saying that from the time it first exchanged hands, that is what it was. Men who could not find a woman, paid a woman. Why do you want others to see it differently? Yes, there will be outliers that will enjoy the work. But those are going to be ones that, like the escort, chose it, and charge what they want. Not the typical street hookers on the corner with pimps to pay. \nProve they are not trafficked, they work for themselves, they are clean (of both drugs and diseases - because they are taking care of themselves and being safe), and that they are a sex worker because they enjoy the work or that that chose the work. Then, hey! Pay 'em and get to it!",
">\n\nI think it is morally unhealthy to normalize it. Even though you have to be an adult to smoke weed, we definitely see weed as a normal thing to do in moderation compared to a few decades ago. This is how we would see prostitution if it was normalized. And I think weed has a lot less complications than legalizing prostitution. A LOT!\nSex work online is a lot safer and requires a lot less mental issues to engage in and promote. But even then, I know some sex workers (online type), and they are scarred by the stuff they have seen when it comes to their job. They have told me stories that are extremely disturbing. These are women who just do stuff by themselves. Not working with a porn company and other people.\nAlso, sex has a huge reputation for being violent and demoralizing towards women in general. I'd assume those numbers would be much higher in men looking to pay for sex. You'd have to have extremely strict and tight regulations for this sort of thing, which would take the fun out of it for a lot of people. And even then, there would still be many mistakes that would happen before we find out all the regulations that are needed. And I don't think we could ever make it mentally and physically safe for women.\nNow, do I think it should be decriminalized for prostitutes? Definitely. I don't see them as disgusting. I feel quite bad for them. Most of them were trafficked at a young age. Do I see men wanting to pay for sex as disgusting? Not necessarily. It depends on the person and the situation. However, this isn't a simple issue where if we just \"stop judging people,\" everything will be fine.",
">\n\nDecriminalizing prostitution for both those selling and buying is demonstrably safer for prostitutes. If it is criminal for the buyer but not the seller, the buyer is often highly defensive and paranoid about the seller, specifically the possibility that they may be working with law enforcement. The buyer will often push to do it in a highly isolated setting as well. These things increase violence that sex workers face, and the averages go down in places where it is decriminalized to both buy and sell. If you have a designated work place for it and no one needs to be distrustful and worried about being arrested, that is the safest situation for all involved. \nWe may disagree with buying it for whatever moral reason, but if we choose to criminalize the purchase of it, we are prioritizing punishing behavior we morally disagree with over prioritizing the safety of those involved, which I can't get behind.",
">\n\nBut there are so many more facets to the safety of legalizing it for the buyer other than them being pushy or wanting to do it in a hidden area. If we legalized it, it still wouldn't really help any of the points I made or is even something that is so overwhelmingly an issue compared to the points I made.",
">\n\nSo long as we have to work to live, all jobs are coercive, even sex work. I’m skeptical that there can ever be a consensual exchange within our current economic context.",
">\n\nExactly , I get sex is intimate but if you are willing to view sex work as any other job , you should be willing to treat it as such",
">\n\nSex work has certain occupational hazards that cannot be regulated away. OSHA (in the US) dictates that a person cannot be subject to bodily fluids without proper PPE in the workplace, and often johns just need to pay more to not wear a condom. Imagine a construction site paying workers more to not wear a hard hat. The greater potential for bodily harm is intrinsic to the work, and it will always be unsafe.",
">\n\nTrue but this doesn't really answer my question",
">\n\nMy point is that treating it like any other job is not ethically possible due to hazardous conditions",
">\n\nThis is a bad take.\nI’d wager prostitution doesn’t even rank in the top ten dangerous jobs by capita.",
">\n\nThat really depends. A gas station cashier likely has a higher risk of being killed. But a quick Google shows sex workers are thirty times more likely to get Aids than the general population. They're also at ridiculously high rates of risk to their mental health. Ptsd is common. Also, yes, sitting at a counter in a gas station is technically dangerous. But it is different type of danger compared to someone fucking them in the ass while shoving a sock in their mouth and calling them a dirty whore. When this happens to a prostitute, since she isn't dead, then all good right?! :) Her job isn't dangerous, she's still alive! And they're really not paid much. Average pay for a sex scene in porn for a woman is around $600, for the guy it's like a hundred. For prostitution you're looking at a hundred to two hundred dollars. \nAlso, if you're in the us. Good luck affording health insurance as an independent contractor engaged in sex work.",
">\n\nI’m not exactly impressed with the American system so if you’re criticising Americans health system then fuck yeah more power to you.\nYou raise fantastic points about there being non lethal dangers in sex work that are worth considering and harder to measure.\nThat being said, sit for a while and think about whether you think that sex workers are in a job so dangerous that it deserves its own category and shouldn’t even be allowed. (This is what the commenter I was responding to was claiming)\nI’m comfortable I’d ban lumberjack as a profession long before I considered banning prostitution based on relative level of danger and conditions.\nI don’t have a specific statistic but soldiers at an educated guess would probably be more likely to experience danger and mental issues but the commenter I responded to probably never thought for one second about banning soldiers on that basis.\nIt’s clear bias, being rationalised as something it isn’t.",
">\n\nIt's decriminalised where I live, which means women can arrange anything themselves. So you can have a strip club with a \"hotel\" above it. Basically 100% of the workers are foreign, from places like Ukraine. Russia, Moldova, Romania. Etc. It's a strange aspect which isn't often brought up. But\"legalizing \" almost always results on foreign workers undercutting any local workforce. How can a 26 year old American girl from the burbs compete with an 18 year Thai girl? One is fine doing work at basically the rates of a full time McDonald's employee, while the other isn't. And of course, that breeds the type of people you'd imagine running the business. Even in places like Amsterdam, where there's tons of regulation, you get the same trafficking you see anywhere else.\nSo morally. I've got zero problem. But I've just never seen a model that can actually ensure safety for everyone involved.",
">\n\nWell culture is everything isn't it? Of there wasn't so much sex tourism from places that have prostitution illegal there would probably be less demand wouldn't there? Less demand would make the whole industry safer imo due to the loss of money driving the search for foreign market girls\nLike imagine the whole world has a brothel just down the block. Does that make it more safe just by sheer volume and normality?",
">\n\nFirstly, i'm not religious, i'm sex-positive and the sex lives of strangers rarely concerns me. I don't think paying for these services makes you a \"bad\" person, nor a \"disgusting\" one.. but for me, it would affect your desirability to me as a partner. To me attraction is a big thing, and i'll be honest, I see it as kind of lame. Not morally corrupt but just ...desperate. \nI would want my partner to be someone that women wanted to have sex with, not the man that they had sex with as a purely profitable transaction. Whilst it's consensual, when you involve money or a benefit other than sex, the line slightly blurs, and I find it becomes icky. \nIt's not even that I think my partner should only have had strictly intimate and personable relations... but the question does spring to mind of \"is sex that has been paid for truly consensual? can you guarantee that?\" Even popular Pornstars who previously agreed to do porn and made careers out of it have stories where they later felt disgusted by what they've had to do but were so enamored by the money, they went through with it. Sex workers will ALWAYS sell a positive image to their clients, part of their job is to make you feel desired, but you never truly know the reality. \nAll in all, it can be seen as \"bad\" or \"disgusting\" because monetary rewards affects the lines of purely consensual sex. The same way it can be icky for a boss to have sex with the intern, the same way directors have sex with actresses that want to star in their movies, and the same way rockstars have sex with their fans. Doesn't make 'em rapists, but it's why people won't look at it as respectable.",
">\n\nyou aren’t sex positive if you think paying for sex is desperate.\ndoes paying for alcohol mean you’re desperate for happiness? some people want to have fun so they buy drinks, others find more fun in sex. as long as sex work is consensual and not the result of pimping or some other form of coercion then I don’t see any harm or how it would be desperate.\nthere are tangible benefits to buying sex vs finding it “naturally” that i don’t think you’re considering. \nwith sex workers you’re safer and don’t have to worry about pregnancy, theft, psychotic women, and other risks that come from random hookups with strangers or even casual dating. there’s also the whole “i don’t need to put time and effort into finding and flirting with someone” when it can be on demand. yea making food at home is usually cheaper and better tasting than takeout but sometimes you’re lazy and want a pizza delivered.",
">\n\nI’m generally sex positive to consensual sex between people. However, everything falls on a spectrum and I don’t think you have to have a certain view on every avenue to be as such. Much like you can love your job, your country or your friends but that doesn’t mean you can’t provide any forms of criticism nor must you love EVERY aspect of these things. \nI have no disdain for people who hook up on dating apps, clubs, attend sex parties etc. I will always believe sex workers should have right to practice and do so in a safe environment. I also wouldn’t stop their client base either, it’s not my business, but there are ethical implications and I’ve said my view from the perspective of my partner which naturally i hold to a more personable standard. I wouldn’t want to be with someone who puts their sexual desires above the possible implications involved in sex work. \nI do want to touch on your point that as long as it’s not coerced or forced, it’s okay. The ethical implication behind this is that when you involve money, this is not guaranteed. Not all clients will take the time to research the background and extra people involved behind the scenes. The women with pimps and who are trafficked won’t spill those beans to you. Again, there will always be exceptions to the rule. \nI understand that sex work is convenient to many but my perception is not swayed by the mere idea that paying for sex means you get to avoid having to flirt with women. Much like I can understand why people have no choice to purchase fast fashion and I’ll understand the reasoning but that does not mean I should ignore the child labour and poor conditions that make this possible. \nAll in all, I won’t stop you but I’m going to think it’s kinda lame. You can wear an item of clothing, I’ll defend you to wear that clothing and I won’t make you feel bad for wearing it.. but I may not like it myself.",
">\n\nReading your posts made me think of a bird preening it's feathers to attract a mate. I thought it was just you being obtuse untill you brought fashion into this lol\nYou really are just a pair of eyes arnt you. No complexity attached. \"I saw it in the window so I bought it! I didn't even care that it was 500$ I just wanted it because the other girls were eyeing it down and I just HAD to have it💅\"",
">\n\nI genuinely have no idea what you’re trying to convey. The topic of fashion was merely to represent that there are often complexities and nuance. So yes, I can be sex positive but I don’t necessarily have to agree with all the variances within the to topic of sex. \nI assume I’ve hit a nerve for your style of response.",
">\n\nNot sure about everywhere else but in America being as prostitution is illegal a lot of the situations the workers are in are really sad, depressing and predatory. If you take a look at the book “Pimp” by ice berg slim for example a lot of the industry isn’t the ideal some just wants to make money like any other job and the pimp is just a bodyguard/manger,\nA lot of it involves a tone of manipulation and dependency and when you add on the ones where safe sex isn’t a priority and the literal hundreds of partners you engage with in such a short time it all comes off as kinda gross.",
">\n\nSex, when a service, is not the same as any other service. There is a difference between driving a person somewhere in a taxi and having your face fucked and ejaculated on by a stranger. As many have stated before and as you can see in 99% of porn is that sex as a service is usually degrading towards women. Just look at the front page of any given porn site. Most of it is not, in any way, esteeming of the women participating. Look at goddamn blowjob videos. The women are not giving a blowjob - they are getting their face fucked. Extra points if they have to gag and be obviously physically uncomfortable and struggling to breathe. Dude it is just not the same as someone operating a forklift or making flower arrangements. Most of it is degrading and the more degrading the more klicks - the more people who frequent porn sites like it. And it's the same with prostitution. Read about what these women have experienced. It is plain awful. Sure if you are talking about a utopia where you can be 100% sure the prostitutes are there on their own terms and if every single customer is a loving, caring, gentle person taking care of the sex workers needs as much as their own - then yes, there would not be anything wrong with it. But that is just not how it is.\nHow hard is it, even in a healthy loving relationship, to always have both partners perfectly satisfied and met their needs sexually?\nSex is as intimate as human interaction can get and buying that from someone is taking all incentive away to treat the other person as good as you would treat a partner who you love and/or actively want to enjoy the time with you.\nAnd that is what disgusts people about people who frequent prostitutes. The possibility of being a person who, as long as they pay for something or feel like they've done their dues, doesn't give a shit about what the person on the other end is experiencing.\nedit: Because of other comments from OP I accused them of debating rather than discussing and suggested if they were seeking moral validation for what they do, which in itself was not part of a discussion really. I deleted that part because it serves no neutral purpose.",
">\n\nWell in this context not special but very very different, in the way that it is way more intimate, there's actually a part of ones body entering the others. There is exchange of bodily fluids. Those services are different from each other the same way as a massage is different to shoving items across a scanner, just times ten. One is naked, one experiences pleasure (or great pain) and one is not using their body to do something, they are having their body be used by someone else. That can leave physical bruises and mental scars because one is extremely vulnerable in the act.",
">\n\nMy view on it is that the act in itself is not wrong for anybody involved, but the character implication is what causes it to be met with disgust by some.\nIf you have money and you pay for sex from somebody who is willing, then it's no problem, but the issue comes when you delve into why they might be paying for sex.\nMany people experience sex in a consensual environment with a person who desires sex with them, and no money is involved. Many would view this as a very normal and important part of life.\nThe question that comes up subconsciously and/or consciously is \"why does this person need to pay for sex?\"\nIt could be that they have undeveloped social skills and this coild be deemed as a negative trait that needs to be worked on.\nAnother reason could be an atypically high sex drive, which could also be perceived as sex addiction.\nThese are not unlikely reasons for a person to pay a sex worker for sex and a judgement could be made before understanding more that they possess These sorts of traits that people simply have the desire to avoid.",
">\n\nThis is the correct answer. \nThe reason people look down on people who hire hookers has nothing to do with sex trafficking, or what really qualifies as consent, or any of the other comments in this thread. I think a good example is your iPhone. It is basically made with slave labor, but nobody really gives a shit. They just happily use their phone. If they actually did give a shit, they wouldn't buy iPhones. Also, prostitution has been around basically since the beginning of time. It has always been a part of human relationships and always will be.\nFor better or worse, the reason people look down on people who hire hookers is that it implies you are deficient in some way. If you were better looking or had better social skills or had more control over your base urges you would not need to hire a hooker. \nPersonally, I look at it like a wheelchair. I dont need a wheelchair and I really hope I never need one, but it is not fair (and downright cruel) for me to look down on someone who does use one. Are they deficient in some way? Yes. They can't walk. Do they deserve admonishment or judgement? No. Not at all.",
">\n\nYou're not paying too have sex with a prostitute. You're paying to use her body as a masturbatory aid.\nProstitution reduces women to being commodities, objects, things. Every other job, you're providing a skill to produce or exchange goods and services. Prostitution, the woman is the thing you're purchasing. The women are the commodities, they're not viewed as humen, they're viewed as consumable goods.",
">\n\nJust like almost every other Job, and any other form of sex work like strippers, onlyfans model , some e girl, girls who post theist traps on social media, so what makes those empowering and not this",
">\n\nStrippers, only fans, e-girls are not empowering. It's gross. When it comes down to it, they're sluts. And they're no better than their fuck-boy counterparts.",
">\n\nOK fair so the difference in worldview is what makes argumen unsound to you !delta",
">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/19jals80 (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nYou just can never know for sure whether the sex worker is being trafficked or not. You can't assume they'd tell you the truth if you asked. They might endanger themselves by telling you the truth. The sex worker wants money, and is willing to have some sexual contact with you in order to get the money. But fundamentally, they're permitting you to do something to their body that they do not want in and of itself. Therefore, their consent is dubious and conditional upon your payment. To me, that's not sufficient consent. I want someone I'm having sex with to genuinely, enthusiastically want to have sex with me for the sole purpose of enjoying sex with me. I don't want to use people as means to ends, and I don't want to be used as a means to anyone else's ends.\nI don't morally disapprove of sex work. I just wouldn't support it because it doesn't provide a good or service that interests me. I want actual human connection, which is something money cannot buy. I do morally disapprove of a system that drives people into sex work to get by or get ahead.",
">\n\n\nYou just can never know for sure whether the sex worker is being trafficked or not. \n\nThis argument can be made for any form of low-skilled labor.\nThere is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that sex work uses slavery more often than say construction work or weaving baskets.\nYour argument applies just as easily to buying a shoe, because it could have been constructed by slaves.",
">\n\nYour whataboutism does nothing to resolve the moral question."
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Again, none of what you've said addresses the moral dilemma in question. Moral questions can't be hand-waved away with empty rhetorical devices. This is still a question of how our choices impact the lives and well-being of others. The fact that we live in a world run by greed does not alleviate the moral burden of making this decision responsibly.
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[
"/u/Due-Lie-8710 (OP) has awarded 7 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nThere's a song I like that speaks on this fairly poetically, so I'd like to start by just directly quoting it:\n\nSo when you bled on the bed as you fed those expectations, as a whore and not a human, you embraced with hesitation the very parameters of all you can be. Not a mother, not an aunt, not a sister who's not subdued. Because dignity's not physical, and your flesh means more than you.\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.",
">\n\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.\n\nFirst of all if you aren't trafficked it is just like another job, as for you both being seen as human , make sense hey aren't there to befriend to have sex , you are performing a service, it's like you watching football or a movie, you only see them as footballers ot actors , half of the time they don't care about their personal life, there are some jobs that prevent you from getting any high paying jobs or jobs that involve care , as for the people purchasing it , if you can't purchase it then why should they sell it , you don't actually support sex work, because that would mean accepting the consumer base ad well as the supplier",
">\n\nThat’s a really big if though, sex work isn’t exactly an industry where you will know for sure if the service you’re getting is consensual. individuals who are victims of sexual trafficking, coercion, or just life circumstance aren’t likely to just tell their “customers” if it isn’t consensual. they could endanger themselves or not be aware that they can say something. \nSeeing someone as an object vs seeing them as an individual with a job aren’t the same though? yes we recognize actors and football players by their career choice and how well they are at it, but they’re still people at the end of the day? that’s why they have fanbases, interviews, paparazzi, popularity on social media, movie adaptions of their life exist—people are interested in more than them just doing their job.\nA persons job is no reason to suddenly strip them of their humanity and rights granted them for being such, that kind of mentality is morally skewed and why a lot of people would not support sex work. plus you can’t say it makes sense for sex workers to be see as commodities only and then believe sex work will be consensual. the whole consent part comes from recognizing that this is another person who has their own boundaries and limits beyond just what you want.",
">\n\nokay, that’s a plumber and not a person you’re having sex with. unlike plumbing which is clean cut, sex can include multiple aspects of different kinks and fetishes. You can’t expect a sex worker to be okay with say participating in rape play, anal, scat, and a mirage of other kinks simply because they agreed to sex. Sex is not clean cut, there is more to it. There has to be a boundary somewhere, this is another person body not a pipe.",
">\n\nThat’s like the point? recognizing the boundary and proceeding from there by RESPECTING the boundary because they are another person and not some masturbatory object. What you just said was a consensual interaction. The initial point was that there is no consensual sex without respecting the party that’s giving as a person.",
">\n\nSo... there's a concept of a moral hazard. \nThere's literally no way for an individual to be certain that their prostitute is not being coerced/trafficked. Even if there are some special circumstances where it might be unlikely, certainty is still impossible, and most people frequenting prostitutes are not in those special circumstances.\nSomeone using their services is therefore extremely likely to be comfortable with risking that they are unknowingly raping someone. \nGenerally speaking, people find that disgusting.",
">\n\nIf you eat chocolate (even the stuff with the fair trade sticker) then there's no guarantee that it hasn't come from slave farms which are not uncommon. If you eat chocolate throughout your life then you are almost definitely contributing to slavery. If you visit a prostitute regularly then the chance they're being exploited is anywhere from functioninally 0% to 100%. So why treat the John who might be discerning with scorn and not the chocolate eater who is a much safer bet in having contributed to coerced labour.",
">\n\nIt's worth trying to avoid those situations, but ultimately it's a very false equivalence to hold people responsible for the actions of others, vs. their own personal actions.\nWhen you buy chocolate, you're not actually holding a gun to a slave, someone else is. The right answer to that is to lobby for worker protections for imported goods, and to try to end involuntary servitude within your country as well. \nWhen you have sex with a trafficked person, you personally literally raped them. If you don't have good evidence to know they aren't trafficked, you're personally ok with the possibility you're going to personally rape them. \nBoth might be considered bad. But it's a false equivalence.\nAnd sure... if someone is paying someone for sex when they are personal friends with them, and interact with them outside of prostitution enough to personally know that they aren't being trafficked... and you're sure they aren't lying, scorning them more than at most some light ribbing isn't justified. It's not like \"sugar daddies\" aren't a thing as well. At the very least much less disapprobation would be appropriate.",
">\n\nIn both cases, there is a customer receiving a service provided by a potentially enslaved person. They are morally equivalent. It makes no sense to say “sure I bought the slavery chocolate, but you can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”",
">\n\n\nyou can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”\n\nThe slavers actions are distinct from the consumers' actions for most things. \nThis is an actual important difference when it comes to prostitution. \nIgnoring that fundamental difference doesn't make it go away, and it's entirely reasonable for someone to make that distinction.",
">\n\nThe slaver and consumer are different people who take different actions in the prostitution scenario. The consumer in both scenarios is taking the risk of being immoral. If I force you to be my slave that’s still immoral whether or not I put you to work in my brothel or mine or factory or fishing boat. And if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever, it’s equivalent.",
">\n\n\nAnd if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever , it’s equivalent.\n\nThis is where the false equivalence comes in. \nSomeone making products with slave labor is not renting out a slave to the consumer so that they consumer can force them to perform mining for the consumer. They are enslaving the labor to create a product, and selling the product. Products don't have rights to violate. The only person violating the rights of the slave is the slaver.\nSomeone trafficking a victim is renting out that victim so that the consumer can rape them.",
">\n\nIf the sex is only contractual to you? Why not just \"hook up.\" Why pay? You will never be able to guarantee they are not being trafficked. If they are, they are not going to tell you. I think the idea of money exchanging hands for sex is the why most have a problem. The idea that you are giving a woman money for sex has been historically seen as her being a whore. \nI am not saying she is. I am saying that from the time it first exchanged hands, that is what it was. Men who could not find a woman, paid a woman. Why do you want others to see it differently? Yes, there will be outliers that will enjoy the work. But those are going to be ones that, like the escort, chose it, and charge what they want. Not the typical street hookers on the corner with pimps to pay. \nProve they are not trafficked, they work for themselves, they are clean (of both drugs and diseases - because they are taking care of themselves and being safe), and that they are a sex worker because they enjoy the work or that that chose the work. Then, hey! Pay 'em and get to it!",
">\n\nI think it is morally unhealthy to normalize it. Even though you have to be an adult to smoke weed, we definitely see weed as a normal thing to do in moderation compared to a few decades ago. This is how we would see prostitution if it was normalized. And I think weed has a lot less complications than legalizing prostitution. A LOT!\nSex work online is a lot safer and requires a lot less mental issues to engage in and promote. But even then, I know some sex workers (online type), and they are scarred by the stuff they have seen when it comes to their job. They have told me stories that are extremely disturbing. These are women who just do stuff by themselves. Not working with a porn company and other people.\nAlso, sex has a huge reputation for being violent and demoralizing towards women in general. I'd assume those numbers would be much higher in men looking to pay for sex. You'd have to have extremely strict and tight regulations for this sort of thing, which would take the fun out of it for a lot of people. And even then, there would still be many mistakes that would happen before we find out all the regulations that are needed. And I don't think we could ever make it mentally and physically safe for women.\nNow, do I think it should be decriminalized for prostitutes? Definitely. I don't see them as disgusting. I feel quite bad for them. Most of them were trafficked at a young age. Do I see men wanting to pay for sex as disgusting? Not necessarily. It depends on the person and the situation. However, this isn't a simple issue where if we just \"stop judging people,\" everything will be fine.",
">\n\nDecriminalizing prostitution for both those selling and buying is demonstrably safer for prostitutes. If it is criminal for the buyer but not the seller, the buyer is often highly defensive and paranoid about the seller, specifically the possibility that they may be working with law enforcement. The buyer will often push to do it in a highly isolated setting as well. These things increase violence that sex workers face, and the averages go down in places where it is decriminalized to both buy and sell. If you have a designated work place for it and no one needs to be distrustful and worried about being arrested, that is the safest situation for all involved. \nWe may disagree with buying it for whatever moral reason, but if we choose to criminalize the purchase of it, we are prioritizing punishing behavior we morally disagree with over prioritizing the safety of those involved, which I can't get behind.",
">\n\nBut there are so many more facets to the safety of legalizing it for the buyer other than them being pushy or wanting to do it in a hidden area. If we legalized it, it still wouldn't really help any of the points I made or is even something that is so overwhelmingly an issue compared to the points I made.",
">\n\nSo long as we have to work to live, all jobs are coercive, even sex work. I’m skeptical that there can ever be a consensual exchange within our current economic context.",
">\n\nExactly , I get sex is intimate but if you are willing to view sex work as any other job , you should be willing to treat it as such",
">\n\nSex work has certain occupational hazards that cannot be regulated away. OSHA (in the US) dictates that a person cannot be subject to bodily fluids without proper PPE in the workplace, and often johns just need to pay more to not wear a condom. Imagine a construction site paying workers more to not wear a hard hat. The greater potential for bodily harm is intrinsic to the work, and it will always be unsafe.",
">\n\nTrue but this doesn't really answer my question",
">\n\nMy point is that treating it like any other job is not ethically possible due to hazardous conditions",
">\n\nThis is a bad take.\nI’d wager prostitution doesn’t even rank in the top ten dangerous jobs by capita.",
">\n\nThat really depends. A gas station cashier likely has a higher risk of being killed. But a quick Google shows sex workers are thirty times more likely to get Aids than the general population. They're also at ridiculously high rates of risk to their mental health. Ptsd is common. Also, yes, sitting at a counter in a gas station is technically dangerous. But it is different type of danger compared to someone fucking them in the ass while shoving a sock in their mouth and calling them a dirty whore. When this happens to a prostitute, since she isn't dead, then all good right?! :) Her job isn't dangerous, she's still alive! And they're really not paid much. Average pay for a sex scene in porn for a woman is around $600, for the guy it's like a hundred. For prostitution you're looking at a hundred to two hundred dollars. \nAlso, if you're in the us. Good luck affording health insurance as an independent contractor engaged in sex work.",
">\n\nI’m not exactly impressed with the American system so if you’re criticising Americans health system then fuck yeah more power to you.\nYou raise fantastic points about there being non lethal dangers in sex work that are worth considering and harder to measure.\nThat being said, sit for a while and think about whether you think that sex workers are in a job so dangerous that it deserves its own category and shouldn’t even be allowed. (This is what the commenter I was responding to was claiming)\nI’m comfortable I’d ban lumberjack as a profession long before I considered banning prostitution based on relative level of danger and conditions.\nI don’t have a specific statistic but soldiers at an educated guess would probably be more likely to experience danger and mental issues but the commenter I responded to probably never thought for one second about banning soldiers on that basis.\nIt’s clear bias, being rationalised as something it isn’t.",
">\n\nIt's decriminalised where I live, which means women can arrange anything themselves. So you can have a strip club with a \"hotel\" above it. Basically 100% of the workers are foreign, from places like Ukraine. Russia, Moldova, Romania. Etc. It's a strange aspect which isn't often brought up. But\"legalizing \" almost always results on foreign workers undercutting any local workforce. How can a 26 year old American girl from the burbs compete with an 18 year Thai girl? One is fine doing work at basically the rates of a full time McDonald's employee, while the other isn't. And of course, that breeds the type of people you'd imagine running the business. Even in places like Amsterdam, where there's tons of regulation, you get the same trafficking you see anywhere else.\nSo morally. I've got zero problem. But I've just never seen a model that can actually ensure safety for everyone involved.",
">\n\nWell culture is everything isn't it? Of there wasn't so much sex tourism from places that have prostitution illegal there would probably be less demand wouldn't there? Less demand would make the whole industry safer imo due to the loss of money driving the search for foreign market girls\nLike imagine the whole world has a brothel just down the block. Does that make it more safe just by sheer volume and normality?",
">\n\nFirstly, i'm not religious, i'm sex-positive and the sex lives of strangers rarely concerns me. I don't think paying for these services makes you a \"bad\" person, nor a \"disgusting\" one.. but for me, it would affect your desirability to me as a partner. To me attraction is a big thing, and i'll be honest, I see it as kind of lame. Not morally corrupt but just ...desperate. \nI would want my partner to be someone that women wanted to have sex with, not the man that they had sex with as a purely profitable transaction. Whilst it's consensual, when you involve money or a benefit other than sex, the line slightly blurs, and I find it becomes icky. \nIt's not even that I think my partner should only have had strictly intimate and personable relations... but the question does spring to mind of \"is sex that has been paid for truly consensual? can you guarantee that?\" Even popular Pornstars who previously agreed to do porn and made careers out of it have stories where they later felt disgusted by what they've had to do but were so enamored by the money, they went through with it. Sex workers will ALWAYS sell a positive image to their clients, part of their job is to make you feel desired, but you never truly know the reality. \nAll in all, it can be seen as \"bad\" or \"disgusting\" because monetary rewards affects the lines of purely consensual sex. The same way it can be icky for a boss to have sex with the intern, the same way directors have sex with actresses that want to star in their movies, and the same way rockstars have sex with their fans. Doesn't make 'em rapists, but it's why people won't look at it as respectable.",
">\n\nyou aren’t sex positive if you think paying for sex is desperate.\ndoes paying for alcohol mean you’re desperate for happiness? some people want to have fun so they buy drinks, others find more fun in sex. as long as sex work is consensual and not the result of pimping or some other form of coercion then I don’t see any harm or how it would be desperate.\nthere are tangible benefits to buying sex vs finding it “naturally” that i don’t think you’re considering. \nwith sex workers you’re safer and don’t have to worry about pregnancy, theft, psychotic women, and other risks that come from random hookups with strangers or even casual dating. there’s also the whole “i don’t need to put time and effort into finding and flirting with someone” when it can be on demand. yea making food at home is usually cheaper and better tasting than takeout but sometimes you’re lazy and want a pizza delivered.",
">\n\nI’m generally sex positive to consensual sex between people. However, everything falls on a spectrum and I don’t think you have to have a certain view on every avenue to be as such. Much like you can love your job, your country or your friends but that doesn’t mean you can’t provide any forms of criticism nor must you love EVERY aspect of these things. \nI have no disdain for people who hook up on dating apps, clubs, attend sex parties etc. I will always believe sex workers should have right to practice and do so in a safe environment. I also wouldn’t stop their client base either, it’s not my business, but there are ethical implications and I’ve said my view from the perspective of my partner which naturally i hold to a more personable standard. I wouldn’t want to be with someone who puts their sexual desires above the possible implications involved in sex work. \nI do want to touch on your point that as long as it’s not coerced or forced, it’s okay. The ethical implication behind this is that when you involve money, this is not guaranteed. Not all clients will take the time to research the background and extra people involved behind the scenes. The women with pimps and who are trafficked won’t spill those beans to you. Again, there will always be exceptions to the rule. \nI understand that sex work is convenient to many but my perception is not swayed by the mere idea that paying for sex means you get to avoid having to flirt with women. Much like I can understand why people have no choice to purchase fast fashion and I’ll understand the reasoning but that does not mean I should ignore the child labour and poor conditions that make this possible. \nAll in all, I won’t stop you but I’m going to think it’s kinda lame. You can wear an item of clothing, I’ll defend you to wear that clothing and I won’t make you feel bad for wearing it.. but I may not like it myself.",
">\n\nReading your posts made me think of a bird preening it's feathers to attract a mate. I thought it was just you being obtuse untill you brought fashion into this lol\nYou really are just a pair of eyes arnt you. No complexity attached. \"I saw it in the window so I bought it! I didn't even care that it was 500$ I just wanted it because the other girls were eyeing it down and I just HAD to have it💅\"",
">\n\nI genuinely have no idea what you’re trying to convey. The topic of fashion was merely to represent that there are often complexities and nuance. So yes, I can be sex positive but I don’t necessarily have to agree with all the variances within the to topic of sex. \nI assume I’ve hit a nerve for your style of response.",
">\n\nNot sure about everywhere else but in America being as prostitution is illegal a lot of the situations the workers are in are really sad, depressing and predatory. If you take a look at the book “Pimp” by ice berg slim for example a lot of the industry isn’t the ideal some just wants to make money like any other job and the pimp is just a bodyguard/manger,\nA lot of it involves a tone of manipulation and dependency and when you add on the ones where safe sex isn’t a priority and the literal hundreds of partners you engage with in such a short time it all comes off as kinda gross.",
">\n\nSex, when a service, is not the same as any other service. There is a difference between driving a person somewhere in a taxi and having your face fucked and ejaculated on by a stranger. As many have stated before and as you can see in 99% of porn is that sex as a service is usually degrading towards women. Just look at the front page of any given porn site. Most of it is not, in any way, esteeming of the women participating. Look at goddamn blowjob videos. The women are not giving a blowjob - they are getting their face fucked. Extra points if they have to gag and be obviously physically uncomfortable and struggling to breathe. Dude it is just not the same as someone operating a forklift or making flower arrangements. Most of it is degrading and the more degrading the more klicks - the more people who frequent porn sites like it. And it's the same with prostitution. Read about what these women have experienced. It is plain awful. Sure if you are talking about a utopia where you can be 100% sure the prostitutes are there on their own terms and if every single customer is a loving, caring, gentle person taking care of the sex workers needs as much as their own - then yes, there would not be anything wrong with it. But that is just not how it is.\nHow hard is it, even in a healthy loving relationship, to always have both partners perfectly satisfied and met their needs sexually?\nSex is as intimate as human interaction can get and buying that from someone is taking all incentive away to treat the other person as good as you would treat a partner who you love and/or actively want to enjoy the time with you.\nAnd that is what disgusts people about people who frequent prostitutes. The possibility of being a person who, as long as they pay for something or feel like they've done their dues, doesn't give a shit about what the person on the other end is experiencing.\nedit: Because of other comments from OP I accused them of debating rather than discussing and suggested if they were seeking moral validation for what they do, which in itself was not part of a discussion really. I deleted that part because it serves no neutral purpose.",
">\n\nWell in this context not special but very very different, in the way that it is way more intimate, there's actually a part of ones body entering the others. There is exchange of bodily fluids. Those services are different from each other the same way as a massage is different to shoving items across a scanner, just times ten. One is naked, one experiences pleasure (or great pain) and one is not using their body to do something, they are having their body be used by someone else. That can leave physical bruises and mental scars because one is extremely vulnerable in the act.",
">\n\nMy view on it is that the act in itself is not wrong for anybody involved, but the character implication is what causes it to be met with disgust by some.\nIf you have money and you pay for sex from somebody who is willing, then it's no problem, but the issue comes when you delve into why they might be paying for sex.\nMany people experience sex in a consensual environment with a person who desires sex with them, and no money is involved. Many would view this as a very normal and important part of life.\nThe question that comes up subconsciously and/or consciously is \"why does this person need to pay for sex?\"\nIt could be that they have undeveloped social skills and this coild be deemed as a negative trait that needs to be worked on.\nAnother reason could be an atypically high sex drive, which could also be perceived as sex addiction.\nThese are not unlikely reasons for a person to pay a sex worker for sex and a judgement could be made before understanding more that they possess These sorts of traits that people simply have the desire to avoid.",
">\n\nThis is the correct answer. \nThe reason people look down on people who hire hookers has nothing to do with sex trafficking, or what really qualifies as consent, or any of the other comments in this thread. I think a good example is your iPhone. It is basically made with slave labor, but nobody really gives a shit. They just happily use their phone. If they actually did give a shit, they wouldn't buy iPhones. Also, prostitution has been around basically since the beginning of time. It has always been a part of human relationships and always will be.\nFor better or worse, the reason people look down on people who hire hookers is that it implies you are deficient in some way. If you were better looking or had better social skills or had more control over your base urges you would not need to hire a hooker. \nPersonally, I look at it like a wheelchair. I dont need a wheelchair and I really hope I never need one, but it is not fair (and downright cruel) for me to look down on someone who does use one. Are they deficient in some way? Yes. They can't walk. Do they deserve admonishment or judgement? No. Not at all.",
">\n\nYou're not paying too have sex with a prostitute. You're paying to use her body as a masturbatory aid.\nProstitution reduces women to being commodities, objects, things. Every other job, you're providing a skill to produce or exchange goods and services. Prostitution, the woman is the thing you're purchasing. The women are the commodities, they're not viewed as humen, they're viewed as consumable goods.",
">\n\nJust like almost every other Job, and any other form of sex work like strippers, onlyfans model , some e girl, girls who post theist traps on social media, so what makes those empowering and not this",
">\n\nStrippers, only fans, e-girls are not empowering. It's gross. When it comes down to it, they're sluts. And they're no better than their fuck-boy counterparts.",
">\n\nOK fair so the difference in worldview is what makes argumen unsound to you !delta",
">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/19jals80 (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nYou just can never know for sure whether the sex worker is being trafficked or not. You can't assume they'd tell you the truth if you asked. They might endanger themselves by telling you the truth. The sex worker wants money, and is willing to have some sexual contact with you in order to get the money. But fundamentally, they're permitting you to do something to their body that they do not want in and of itself. Therefore, their consent is dubious and conditional upon your payment. To me, that's not sufficient consent. I want someone I'm having sex with to genuinely, enthusiastically want to have sex with me for the sole purpose of enjoying sex with me. I don't want to use people as means to ends, and I don't want to be used as a means to anyone else's ends.\nI don't morally disapprove of sex work. I just wouldn't support it because it doesn't provide a good or service that interests me. I want actual human connection, which is something money cannot buy. I do morally disapprove of a system that drives people into sex work to get by or get ahead.",
">\n\n\nYou just can never know for sure whether the sex worker is being trafficked or not. \n\nThis argument can be made for any form of low-skilled labor.\nThere is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that sex work uses slavery more often than say construction work or weaving baskets.\nYour argument applies just as easily to buying a shoe, because it could have been constructed by slaves.",
">\n\nYour whataboutism does nothing to resolve the moral question.",
">\n\n“whataboutism” is the new trendy defence for people who've been shown a reductiō ad absurdum it seems.\nI'm showing that your argument can just as easily be used to argue the absurd, and that therefore it can't hold much water. Unless one were to believe in the absurd, and would believe that there is a problem with buying shoes or about any product."
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I don't think there is a solid " yes " or " no " answer to this question. There are so many ( but if's) that it's hard to give more than just an opinion.
Speaking from a Christian perspective, morally, yeah, it's wrong. Because sex is seen as something that's sacred that should be shared between 2 consenting married adults.
But if a woman isn't being forced in any type of way, shape, or form and she simply enjoys cash & realized opening her legs to buyers can get her lots of cash, that's her business. Not anyone else's.
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"/u/Due-Lie-8710 (OP) has awarded 7 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nThere's a song I like that speaks on this fairly poetically, so I'd like to start by just directly quoting it:\n\nSo when you bled on the bed as you fed those expectations, as a whore and not a human, you embraced with hesitation the very parameters of all you can be. Not a mother, not an aunt, not a sister who's not subdued. Because dignity's not physical, and your flesh means more than you.\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.",
">\n\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.\n\nFirst of all if you aren't trafficked it is just like another job, as for you both being seen as human , make sense hey aren't there to befriend to have sex , you are performing a service, it's like you watching football or a movie, you only see them as footballers ot actors , half of the time they don't care about their personal life, there are some jobs that prevent you from getting any high paying jobs or jobs that involve care , as for the people purchasing it , if you can't purchase it then why should they sell it , you don't actually support sex work, because that would mean accepting the consumer base ad well as the supplier",
">\n\nThat’s a really big if though, sex work isn’t exactly an industry where you will know for sure if the service you’re getting is consensual. individuals who are victims of sexual trafficking, coercion, or just life circumstance aren’t likely to just tell their “customers” if it isn’t consensual. they could endanger themselves or not be aware that they can say something. \nSeeing someone as an object vs seeing them as an individual with a job aren’t the same though? yes we recognize actors and football players by their career choice and how well they are at it, but they’re still people at the end of the day? that’s why they have fanbases, interviews, paparazzi, popularity on social media, movie adaptions of their life exist—people are interested in more than them just doing their job.\nA persons job is no reason to suddenly strip them of their humanity and rights granted them for being such, that kind of mentality is morally skewed and why a lot of people would not support sex work. plus you can’t say it makes sense for sex workers to be see as commodities only and then believe sex work will be consensual. the whole consent part comes from recognizing that this is another person who has their own boundaries and limits beyond just what you want.",
">\n\nokay, that’s a plumber and not a person you’re having sex with. unlike plumbing which is clean cut, sex can include multiple aspects of different kinks and fetishes. You can’t expect a sex worker to be okay with say participating in rape play, anal, scat, and a mirage of other kinks simply because they agreed to sex. Sex is not clean cut, there is more to it. There has to be a boundary somewhere, this is another person body not a pipe.",
">\n\nThat’s like the point? recognizing the boundary and proceeding from there by RESPECTING the boundary because they are another person and not some masturbatory object. What you just said was a consensual interaction. The initial point was that there is no consensual sex without respecting the party that’s giving as a person.",
">\n\nSo... there's a concept of a moral hazard. \nThere's literally no way for an individual to be certain that their prostitute is not being coerced/trafficked. Even if there are some special circumstances where it might be unlikely, certainty is still impossible, and most people frequenting prostitutes are not in those special circumstances.\nSomeone using their services is therefore extremely likely to be comfortable with risking that they are unknowingly raping someone. \nGenerally speaking, people find that disgusting.",
">\n\nIf you eat chocolate (even the stuff with the fair trade sticker) then there's no guarantee that it hasn't come from slave farms which are not uncommon. If you eat chocolate throughout your life then you are almost definitely contributing to slavery. If you visit a prostitute regularly then the chance they're being exploited is anywhere from functioninally 0% to 100%. So why treat the John who might be discerning with scorn and not the chocolate eater who is a much safer bet in having contributed to coerced labour.",
">\n\nIt's worth trying to avoid those situations, but ultimately it's a very false equivalence to hold people responsible for the actions of others, vs. their own personal actions.\nWhen you buy chocolate, you're not actually holding a gun to a slave, someone else is. The right answer to that is to lobby for worker protections for imported goods, and to try to end involuntary servitude within your country as well. \nWhen you have sex with a trafficked person, you personally literally raped them. If you don't have good evidence to know they aren't trafficked, you're personally ok with the possibility you're going to personally rape them. \nBoth might be considered bad. But it's a false equivalence.\nAnd sure... if someone is paying someone for sex when they are personal friends with them, and interact with them outside of prostitution enough to personally know that they aren't being trafficked... and you're sure they aren't lying, scorning them more than at most some light ribbing isn't justified. It's not like \"sugar daddies\" aren't a thing as well. At the very least much less disapprobation would be appropriate.",
">\n\nIn both cases, there is a customer receiving a service provided by a potentially enslaved person. They are morally equivalent. It makes no sense to say “sure I bought the slavery chocolate, but you can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”",
">\n\n\nyou can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”\n\nThe slavers actions are distinct from the consumers' actions for most things. \nThis is an actual important difference when it comes to prostitution. \nIgnoring that fundamental difference doesn't make it go away, and it's entirely reasonable for someone to make that distinction.",
">\n\nThe slaver and consumer are different people who take different actions in the prostitution scenario. The consumer in both scenarios is taking the risk of being immoral. If I force you to be my slave that’s still immoral whether or not I put you to work in my brothel or mine or factory or fishing boat. And if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever, it’s equivalent.",
">\n\n\nAnd if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever , it’s equivalent.\n\nThis is where the false equivalence comes in. \nSomeone making products with slave labor is not renting out a slave to the consumer so that they consumer can force them to perform mining for the consumer. They are enslaving the labor to create a product, and selling the product. Products don't have rights to violate. The only person violating the rights of the slave is the slaver.\nSomeone trafficking a victim is renting out that victim so that the consumer can rape them.",
">\n\nIf the sex is only contractual to you? Why not just \"hook up.\" Why pay? You will never be able to guarantee they are not being trafficked. If they are, they are not going to tell you. I think the idea of money exchanging hands for sex is the why most have a problem. The idea that you are giving a woman money for sex has been historically seen as her being a whore. \nI am not saying she is. I am saying that from the time it first exchanged hands, that is what it was. Men who could not find a woman, paid a woman. Why do you want others to see it differently? Yes, there will be outliers that will enjoy the work. But those are going to be ones that, like the escort, chose it, and charge what they want. Not the typical street hookers on the corner with pimps to pay. \nProve they are not trafficked, they work for themselves, they are clean (of both drugs and diseases - because they are taking care of themselves and being safe), and that they are a sex worker because they enjoy the work or that that chose the work. Then, hey! Pay 'em and get to it!",
">\n\nI think it is morally unhealthy to normalize it. Even though you have to be an adult to smoke weed, we definitely see weed as a normal thing to do in moderation compared to a few decades ago. This is how we would see prostitution if it was normalized. And I think weed has a lot less complications than legalizing prostitution. A LOT!\nSex work online is a lot safer and requires a lot less mental issues to engage in and promote. But even then, I know some sex workers (online type), and they are scarred by the stuff they have seen when it comes to their job. They have told me stories that are extremely disturbing. These are women who just do stuff by themselves. Not working with a porn company and other people.\nAlso, sex has a huge reputation for being violent and demoralizing towards women in general. I'd assume those numbers would be much higher in men looking to pay for sex. You'd have to have extremely strict and tight regulations for this sort of thing, which would take the fun out of it for a lot of people. And even then, there would still be many mistakes that would happen before we find out all the regulations that are needed. And I don't think we could ever make it mentally and physically safe for women.\nNow, do I think it should be decriminalized for prostitutes? Definitely. I don't see them as disgusting. I feel quite bad for them. Most of them were trafficked at a young age. Do I see men wanting to pay for sex as disgusting? Not necessarily. It depends on the person and the situation. However, this isn't a simple issue where if we just \"stop judging people,\" everything will be fine.",
">\n\nDecriminalizing prostitution for both those selling and buying is demonstrably safer for prostitutes. If it is criminal for the buyer but not the seller, the buyer is often highly defensive and paranoid about the seller, specifically the possibility that they may be working with law enforcement. The buyer will often push to do it in a highly isolated setting as well. These things increase violence that sex workers face, and the averages go down in places where it is decriminalized to both buy and sell. If you have a designated work place for it and no one needs to be distrustful and worried about being arrested, that is the safest situation for all involved. \nWe may disagree with buying it for whatever moral reason, but if we choose to criminalize the purchase of it, we are prioritizing punishing behavior we morally disagree with over prioritizing the safety of those involved, which I can't get behind.",
">\n\nBut there are so many more facets to the safety of legalizing it for the buyer other than them being pushy or wanting to do it in a hidden area. If we legalized it, it still wouldn't really help any of the points I made or is even something that is so overwhelmingly an issue compared to the points I made.",
">\n\nSo long as we have to work to live, all jobs are coercive, even sex work. I’m skeptical that there can ever be a consensual exchange within our current economic context.",
">\n\nExactly , I get sex is intimate but if you are willing to view sex work as any other job , you should be willing to treat it as such",
">\n\nSex work has certain occupational hazards that cannot be regulated away. OSHA (in the US) dictates that a person cannot be subject to bodily fluids without proper PPE in the workplace, and often johns just need to pay more to not wear a condom. Imagine a construction site paying workers more to not wear a hard hat. The greater potential for bodily harm is intrinsic to the work, and it will always be unsafe.",
">\n\nTrue but this doesn't really answer my question",
">\n\nMy point is that treating it like any other job is not ethically possible due to hazardous conditions",
">\n\nThis is a bad take.\nI’d wager prostitution doesn’t even rank in the top ten dangerous jobs by capita.",
">\n\nThat really depends. A gas station cashier likely has a higher risk of being killed. But a quick Google shows sex workers are thirty times more likely to get Aids than the general population. They're also at ridiculously high rates of risk to their mental health. Ptsd is common. Also, yes, sitting at a counter in a gas station is technically dangerous. But it is different type of danger compared to someone fucking them in the ass while shoving a sock in their mouth and calling them a dirty whore. When this happens to a prostitute, since she isn't dead, then all good right?! :) Her job isn't dangerous, she's still alive! And they're really not paid much. Average pay for a sex scene in porn for a woman is around $600, for the guy it's like a hundred. For prostitution you're looking at a hundred to two hundred dollars. \nAlso, if you're in the us. Good luck affording health insurance as an independent contractor engaged in sex work.",
">\n\nI’m not exactly impressed with the American system so if you’re criticising Americans health system then fuck yeah more power to you.\nYou raise fantastic points about there being non lethal dangers in sex work that are worth considering and harder to measure.\nThat being said, sit for a while and think about whether you think that sex workers are in a job so dangerous that it deserves its own category and shouldn’t even be allowed. (This is what the commenter I was responding to was claiming)\nI’m comfortable I’d ban lumberjack as a profession long before I considered banning prostitution based on relative level of danger and conditions.\nI don’t have a specific statistic but soldiers at an educated guess would probably be more likely to experience danger and mental issues but the commenter I responded to probably never thought for one second about banning soldiers on that basis.\nIt’s clear bias, being rationalised as something it isn’t.",
">\n\nIt's decriminalised where I live, which means women can arrange anything themselves. So you can have a strip club with a \"hotel\" above it. Basically 100% of the workers are foreign, from places like Ukraine. Russia, Moldova, Romania. Etc. It's a strange aspect which isn't often brought up. But\"legalizing \" almost always results on foreign workers undercutting any local workforce. How can a 26 year old American girl from the burbs compete with an 18 year Thai girl? One is fine doing work at basically the rates of a full time McDonald's employee, while the other isn't. And of course, that breeds the type of people you'd imagine running the business. Even in places like Amsterdam, where there's tons of regulation, you get the same trafficking you see anywhere else.\nSo morally. I've got zero problem. But I've just never seen a model that can actually ensure safety for everyone involved.",
">\n\nWell culture is everything isn't it? Of there wasn't so much sex tourism from places that have prostitution illegal there would probably be less demand wouldn't there? Less demand would make the whole industry safer imo due to the loss of money driving the search for foreign market girls\nLike imagine the whole world has a brothel just down the block. Does that make it more safe just by sheer volume and normality?",
">\n\nFirstly, i'm not religious, i'm sex-positive and the sex lives of strangers rarely concerns me. I don't think paying for these services makes you a \"bad\" person, nor a \"disgusting\" one.. but for me, it would affect your desirability to me as a partner. To me attraction is a big thing, and i'll be honest, I see it as kind of lame. Not morally corrupt but just ...desperate. \nI would want my partner to be someone that women wanted to have sex with, not the man that they had sex with as a purely profitable transaction. Whilst it's consensual, when you involve money or a benefit other than sex, the line slightly blurs, and I find it becomes icky. \nIt's not even that I think my partner should only have had strictly intimate and personable relations... but the question does spring to mind of \"is sex that has been paid for truly consensual? can you guarantee that?\" Even popular Pornstars who previously agreed to do porn and made careers out of it have stories where they later felt disgusted by what they've had to do but were so enamored by the money, they went through with it. Sex workers will ALWAYS sell a positive image to their clients, part of their job is to make you feel desired, but you never truly know the reality. \nAll in all, it can be seen as \"bad\" or \"disgusting\" because monetary rewards affects the lines of purely consensual sex. The same way it can be icky for a boss to have sex with the intern, the same way directors have sex with actresses that want to star in their movies, and the same way rockstars have sex with their fans. Doesn't make 'em rapists, but it's why people won't look at it as respectable.",
">\n\nyou aren’t sex positive if you think paying for sex is desperate.\ndoes paying for alcohol mean you’re desperate for happiness? some people want to have fun so they buy drinks, others find more fun in sex. as long as sex work is consensual and not the result of pimping or some other form of coercion then I don’t see any harm or how it would be desperate.\nthere are tangible benefits to buying sex vs finding it “naturally” that i don’t think you’re considering. \nwith sex workers you’re safer and don’t have to worry about pregnancy, theft, psychotic women, and other risks that come from random hookups with strangers or even casual dating. there’s also the whole “i don’t need to put time and effort into finding and flirting with someone” when it can be on demand. yea making food at home is usually cheaper and better tasting than takeout but sometimes you’re lazy and want a pizza delivered.",
">\n\nI’m generally sex positive to consensual sex between people. However, everything falls on a spectrum and I don’t think you have to have a certain view on every avenue to be as such. Much like you can love your job, your country or your friends but that doesn’t mean you can’t provide any forms of criticism nor must you love EVERY aspect of these things. \nI have no disdain for people who hook up on dating apps, clubs, attend sex parties etc. I will always believe sex workers should have right to practice and do so in a safe environment. I also wouldn’t stop their client base either, it’s not my business, but there are ethical implications and I’ve said my view from the perspective of my partner which naturally i hold to a more personable standard. I wouldn’t want to be with someone who puts their sexual desires above the possible implications involved in sex work. \nI do want to touch on your point that as long as it’s not coerced or forced, it’s okay. The ethical implication behind this is that when you involve money, this is not guaranteed. Not all clients will take the time to research the background and extra people involved behind the scenes. The women with pimps and who are trafficked won’t spill those beans to you. Again, there will always be exceptions to the rule. \nI understand that sex work is convenient to many but my perception is not swayed by the mere idea that paying for sex means you get to avoid having to flirt with women. Much like I can understand why people have no choice to purchase fast fashion and I’ll understand the reasoning but that does not mean I should ignore the child labour and poor conditions that make this possible. \nAll in all, I won’t stop you but I’m going to think it’s kinda lame. You can wear an item of clothing, I’ll defend you to wear that clothing and I won’t make you feel bad for wearing it.. but I may not like it myself.",
">\n\nReading your posts made me think of a bird preening it's feathers to attract a mate. I thought it was just you being obtuse untill you brought fashion into this lol\nYou really are just a pair of eyes arnt you. No complexity attached. \"I saw it in the window so I bought it! I didn't even care that it was 500$ I just wanted it because the other girls were eyeing it down and I just HAD to have it💅\"",
">\n\nI genuinely have no idea what you’re trying to convey. The topic of fashion was merely to represent that there are often complexities and nuance. So yes, I can be sex positive but I don’t necessarily have to agree with all the variances within the to topic of sex. \nI assume I’ve hit a nerve for your style of response.",
">\n\nNot sure about everywhere else but in America being as prostitution is illegal a lot of the situations the workers are in are really sad, depressing and predatory. If you take a look at the book “Pimp” by ice berg slim for example a lot of the industry isn’t the ideal some just wants to make money like any other job and the pimp is just a bodyguard/manger,\nA lot of it involves a tone of manipulation and dependency and when you add on the ones where safe sex isn’t a priority and the literal hundreds of partners you engage with in such a short time it all comes off as kinda gross.",
">\n\nSex, when a service, is not the same as any other service. There is a difference between driving a person somewhere in a taxi and having your face fucked and ejaculated on by a stranger. As many have stated before and as you can see in 99% of porn is that sex as a service is usually degrading towards women. Just look at the front page of any given porn site. Most of it is not, in any way, esteeming of the women participating. Look at goddamn blowjob videos. The women are not giving a blowjob - they are getting their face fucked. Extra points if they have to gag and be obviously physically uncomfortable and struggling to breathe. Dude it is just not the same as someone operating a forklift or making flower arrangements. Most of it is degrading and the more degrading the more klicks - the more people who frequent porn sites like it. And it's the same with prostitution. Read about what these women have experienced. It is plain awful. Sure if you are talking about a utopia where you can be 100% sure the prostitutes are there on their own terms and if every single customer is a loving, caring, gentle person taking care of the sex workers needs as much as their own - then yes, there would not be anything wrong with it. But that is just not how it is.\nHow hard is it, even in a healthy loving relationship, to always have both partners perfectly satisfied and met their needs sexually?\nSex is as intimate as human interaction can get and buying that from someone is taking all incentive away to treat the other person as good as you would treat a partner who you love and/or actively want to enjoy the time with you.\nAnd that is what disgusts people about people who frequent prostitutes. The possibility of being a person who, as long as they pay for something or feel like they've done their dues, doesn't give a shit about what the person on the other end is experiencing.\nedit: Because of other comments from OP I accused them of debating rather than discussing and suggested if they were seeking moral validation for what they do, which in itself was not part of a discussion really. I deleted that part because it serves no neutral purpose.",
">\n\nWell in this context not special but very very different, in the way that it is way more intimate, there's actually a part of ones body entering the others. There is exchange of bodily fluids. Those services are different from each other the same way as a massage is different to shoving items across a scanner, just times ten. One is naked, one experiences pleasure (or great pain) and one is not using their body to do something, they are having their body be used by someone else. That can leave physical bruises and mental scars because one is extremely vulnerable in the act.",
">\n\nMy view on it is that the act in itself is not wrong for anybody involved, but the character implication is what causes it to be met with disgust by some.\nIf you have money and you pay for sex from somebody who is willing, then it's no problem, but the issue comes when you delve into why they might be paying for sex.\nMany people experience sex in a consensual environment with a person who desires sex with them, and no money is involved. Many would view this as a very normal and important part of life.\nThe question that comes up subconsciously and/or consciously is \"why does this person need to pay for sex?\"\nIt could be that they have undeveloped social skills and this coild be deemed as a negative trait that needs to be worked on.\nAnother reason could be an atypically high sex drive, which could also be perceived as sex addiction.\nThese are not unlikely reasons for a person to pay a sex worker for sex and a judgement could be made before understanding more that they possess These sorts of traits that people simply have the desire to avoid.",
">\n\nThis is the correct answer. \nThe reason people look down on people who hire hookers has nothing to do with sex trafficking, or what really qualifies as consent, or any of the other comments in this thread. I think a good example is your iPhone. It is basically made with slave labor, but nobody really gives a shit. They just happily use their phone. If they actually did give a shit, they wouldn't buy iPhones. Also, prostitution has been around basically since the beginning of time. It has always been a part of human relationships and always will be.\nFor better or worse, the reason people look down on people who hire hookers is that it implies you are deficient in some way. If you were better looking or had better social skills or had more control over your base urges you would not need to hire a hooker. \nPersonally, I look at it like a wheelchair. I dont need a wheelchair and I really hope I never need one, but it is not fair (and downright cruel) for me to look down on someone who does use one. Are they deficient in some way? Yes. They can't walk. Do they deserve admonishment or judgement? No. Not at all.",
">\n\nYou're not paying too have sex with a prostitute. You're paying to use her body as a masturbatory aid.\nProstitution reduces women to being commodities, objects, things. Every other job, you're providing a skill to produce or exchange goods and services. Prostitution, the woman is the thing you're purchasing. The women are the commodities, they're not viewed as humen, they're viewed as consumable goods.",
">\n\nJust like almost every other Job, and any other form of sex work like strippers, onlyfans model , some e girl, girls who post theist traps on social media, so what makes those empowering and not this",
">\n\nStrippers, only fans, e-girls are not empowering. It's gross. When it comes down to it, they're sluts. And they're no better than their fuck-boy counterparts.",
">\n\nOK fair so the difference in worldview is what makes argumen unsound to you !delta",
">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/19jals80 (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nYou just can never know for sure whether the sex worker is being trafficked or not. You can't assume they'd tell you the truth if you asked. They might endanger themselves by telling you the truth. The sex worker wants money, and is willing to have some sexual contact with you in order to get the money. But fundamentally, they're permitting you to do something to their body that they do not want in and of itself. Therefore, their consent is dubious and conditional upon your payment. To me, that's not sufficient consent. I want someone I'm having sex with to genuinely, enthusiastically want to have sex with me for the sole purpose of enjoying sex with me. I don't want to use people as means to ends, and I don't want to be used as a means to anyone else's ends.\nI don't morally disapprove of sex work. I just wouldn't support it because it doesn't provide a good or service that interests me. I want actual human connection, which is something money cannot buy. I do morally disapprove of a system that drives people into sex work to get by or get ahead.",
">\n\n\nYou just can never know for sure whether the sex worker is being trafficked or not. \n\nThis argument can be made for any form of low-skilled labor.\nThere is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that sex work uses slavery more often than say construction work or weaving baskets.\nYour argument applies just as easily to buying a shoe, because it could have been constructed by slaves.",
">\n\nYour whataboutism does nothing to resolve the moral question.",
">\n\n“whataboutism” is the new trendy defence for people who've been shown a reductiō ad absurdum it seems.\nI'm showing that your argument can just as easily be used to argue the absurd, and that therefore it can't hold much water. Unless one were to believe in the absurd, and would believe that there is a problem with buying shoes or about any product.",
">\n\nAgain, none of what you've said addresses the moral dilemma in question. Moral questions can't be hand-waved away with empty rhetorical devices. This is still a question of how our choices impact the lives and well-being of others. The fact that we live in a world run by greed does not alleviate the moral burden of making this decision responsibly."
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Trying to justify yourself?
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[
"/u/Due-Lie-8710 (OP) has awarded 7 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nThere's a song I like that speaks on this fairly poetically, so I'd like to start by just directly quoting it:\n\nSo when you bled on the bed as you fed those expectations, as a whore and not a human, you embraced with hesitation the very parameters of all you can be. Not a mother, not an aunt, not a sister who's not subdued. Because dignity's not physical, and your flesh means more than you.\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.",
">\n\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.\n\nFirst of all if you aren't trafficked it is just like another job, as for you both being seen as human , make sense hey aren't there to befriend to have sex , you are performing a service, it's like you watching football or a movie, you only see them as footballers ot actors , half of the time they don't care about their personal life, there are some jobs that prevent you from getting any high paying jobs or jobs that involve care , as for the people purchasing it , if you can't purchase it then why should they sell it , you don't actually support sex work, because that would mean accepting the consumer base ad well as the supplier",
">\n\nThat’s a really big if though, sex work isn’t exactly an industry where you will know for sure if the service you’re getting is consensual. individuals who are victims of sexual trafficking, coercion, or just life circumstance aren’t likely to just tell their “customers” if it isn’t consensual. they could endanger themselves or not be aware that they can say something. \nSeeing someone as an object vs seeing them as an individual with a job aren’t the same though? yes we recognize actors and football players by their career choice and how well they are at it, but they’re still people at the end of the day? that’s why they have fanbases, interviews, paparazzi, popularity on social media, movie adaptions of their life exist—people are interested in more than them just doing their job.\nA persons job is no reason to suddenly strip them of their humanity and rights granted them for being such, that kind of mentality is morally skewed and why a lot of people would not support sex work. plus you can’t say it makes sense for sex workers to be see as commodities only and then believe sex work will be consensual. the whole consent part comes from recognizing that this is another person who has their own boundaries and limits beyond just what you want.",
">\n\nokay, that’s a plumber and not a person you’re having sex with. unlike plumbing which is clean cut, sex can include multiple aspects of different kinks and fetishes. You can’t expect a sex worker to be okay with say participating in rape play, anal, scat, and a mirage of other kinks simply because they agreed to sex. Sex is not clean cut, there is more to it. There has to be a boundary somewhere, this is another person body not a pipe.",
">\n\nThat’s like the point? recognizing the boundary and proceeding from there by RESPECTING the boundary because they are another person and not some masturbatory object. What you just said was a consensual interaction. The initial point was that there is no consensual sex without respecting the party that’s giving as a person.",
">\n\nSo... there's a concept of a moral hazard. \nThere's literally no way for an individual to be certain that their prostitute is not being coerced/trafficked. Even if there are some special circumstances where it might be unlikely, certainty is still impossible, and most people frequenting prostitutes are not in those special circumstances.\nSomeone using their services is therefore extremely likely to be comfortable with risking that they are unknowingly raping someone. \nGenerally speaking, people find that disgusting.",
">\n\nIf you eat chocolate (even the stuff with the fair trade sticker) then there's no guarantee that it hasn't come from slave farms which are not uncommon. If you eat chocolate throughout your life then you are almost definitely contributing to slavery. If you visit a prostitute regularly then the chance they're being exploited is anywhere from functioninally 0% to 100%. So why treat the John who might be discerning with scorn and not the chocolate eater who is a much safer bet in having contributed to coerced labour.",
">\n\nIt's worth trying to avoid those situations, but ultimately it's a very false equivalence to hold people responsible for the actions of others, vs. their own personal actions.\nWhen you buy chocolate, you're not actually holding a gun to a slave, someone else is. The right answer to that is to lobby for worker protections for imported goods, and to try to end involuntary servitude within your country as well. \nWhen you have sex with a trafficked person, you personally literally raped them. If you don't have good evidence to know they aren't trafficked, you're personally ok with the possibility you're going to personally rape them. \nBoth might be considered bad. But it's a false equivalence.\nAnd sure... if someone is paying someone for sex when they are personal friends with them, and interact with them outside of prostitution enough to personally know that they aren't being trafficked... and you're sure they aren't lying, scorning them more than at most some light ribbing isn't justified. It's not like \"sugar daddies\" aren't a thing as well. At the very least much less disapprobation would be appropriate.",
">\n\nIn both cases, there is a customer receiving a service provided by a potentially enslaved person. They are morally equivalent. It makes no sense to say “sure I bought the slavery chocolate, but you can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”",
">\n\n\nyou can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”\n\nThe slavers actions are distinct from the consumers' actions for most things. \nThis is an actual important difference when it comes to prostitution. \nIgnoring that fundamental difference doesn't make it go away, and it's entirely reasonable for someone to make that distinction.",
">\n\nThe slaver and consumer are different people who take different actions in the prostitution scenario. The consumer in both scenarios is taking the risk of being immoral. If I force you to be my slave that’s still immoral whether or not I put you to work in my brothel or mine or factory or fishing boat. And if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever, it’s equivalent.",
">\n\n\nAnd if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever , it’s equivalent.\n\nThis is where the false equivalence comes in. \nSomeone making products with slave labor is not renting out a slave to the consumer so that they consumer can force them to perform mining for the consumer. They are enslaving the labor to create a product, and selling the product. Products don't have rights to violate. The only person violating the rights of the slave is the slaver.\nSomeone trafficking a victim is renting out that victim so that the consumer can rape them.",
">\n\nIf the sex is only contractual to you? Why not just \"hook up.\" Why pay? You will never be able to guarantee they are not being trafficked. If they are, they are not going to tell you. I think the idea of money exchanging hands for sex is the why most have a problem. The idea that you are giving a woman money for sex has been historically seen as her being a whore. \nI am not saying she is. I am saying that from the time it first exchanged hands, that is what it was. Men who could not find a woman, paid a woman. Why do you want others to see it differently? Yes, there will be outliers that will enjoy the work. But those are going to be ones that, like the escort, chose it, and charge what they want. Not the typical street hookers on the corner with pimps to pay. \nProve they are not trafficked, they work for themselves, they are clean (of both drugs and diseases - because they are taking care of themselves and being safe), and that they are a sex worker because they enjoy the work or that that chose the work. Then, hey! Pay 'em and get to it!",
">\n\nI think it is morally unhealthy to normalize it. Even though you have to be an adult to smoke weed, we definitely see weed as a normal thing to do in moderation compared to a few decades ago. This is how we would see prostitution if it was normalized. And I think weed has a lot less complications than legalizing prostitution. A LOT!\nSex work online is a lot safer and requires a lot less mental issues to engage in and promote. But even then, I know some sex workers (online type), and they are scarred by the stuff they have seen when it comes to their job. They have told me stories that are extremely disturbing. These are women who just do stuff by themselves. Not working with a porn company and other people.\nAlso, sex has a huge reputation for being violent and demoralizing towards women in general. I'd assume those numbers would be much higher in men looking to pay for sex. You'd have to have extremely strict and tight regulations for this sort of thing, which would take the fun out of it for a lot of people. And even then, there would still be many mistakes that would happen before we find out all the regulations that are needed. And I don't think we could ever make it mentally and physically safe for women.\nNow, do I think it should be decriminalized for prostitutes? Definitely. I don't see them as disgusting. I feel quite bad for them. Most of them were trafficked at a young age. Do I see men wanting to pay for sex as disgusting? Not necessarily. It depends on the person and the situation. However, this isn't a simple issue where if we just \"stop judging people,\" everything will be fine.",
">\n\nDecriminalizing prostitution for both those selling and buying is demonstrably safer for prostitutes. If it is criminal for the buyer but not the seller, the buyer is often highly defensive and paranoid about the seller, specifically the possibility that they may be working with law enforcement. The buyer will often push to do it in a highly isolated setting as well. These things increase violence that sex workers face, and the averages go down in places where it is decriminalized to both buy and sell. If you have a designated work place for it and no one needs to be distrustful and worried about being arrested, that is the safest situation for all involved. \nWe may disagree with buying it for whatever moral reason, but if we choose to criminalize the purchase of it, we are prioritizing punishing behavior we morally disagree with over prioritizing the safety of those involved, which I can't get behind.",
">\n\nBut there are so many more facets to the safety of legalizing it for the buyer other than them being pushy or wanting to do it in a hidden area. If we legalized it, it still wouldn't really help any of the points I made or is even something that is so overwhelmingly an issue compared to the points I made.",
">\n\nSo long as we have to work to live, all jobs are coercive, even sex work. I’m skeptical that there can ever be a consensual exchange within our current economic context.",
">\n\nExactly , I get sex is intimate but if you are willing to view sex work as any other job , you should be willing to treat it as such",
">\n\nSex work has certain occupational hazards that cannot be regulated away. OSHA (in the US) dictates that a person cannot be subject to bodily fluids without proper PPE in the workplace, and often johns just need to pay more to not wear a condom. Imagine a construction site paying workers more to not wear a hard hat. The greater potential for bodily harm is intrinsic to the work, and it will always be unsafe.",
">\n\nTrue but this doesn't really answer my question",
">\n\nMy point is that treating it like any other job is not ethically possible due to hazardous conditions",
">\n\nThis is a bad take.\nI’d wager prostitution doesn’t even rank in the top ten dangerous jobs by capita.",
">\n\nThat really depends. A gas station cashier likely has a higher risk of being killed. But a quick Google shows sex workers are thirty times more likely to get Aids than the general population. They're also at ridiculously high rates of risk to their mental health. Ptsd is common. Also, yes, sitting at a counter in a gas station is technically dangerous. But it is different type of danger compared to someone fucking them in the ass while shoving a sock in their mouth and calling them a dirty whore. When this happens to a prostitute, since she isn't dead, then all good right?! :) Her job isn't dangerous, she's still alive! And they're really not paid much. Average pay for a sex scene in porn for a woman is around $600, for the guy it's like a hundred. For prostitution you're looking at a hundred to two hundred dollars. \nAlso, if you're in the us. Good luck affording health insurance as an independent contractor engaged in sex work.",
">\n\nI’m not exactly impressed with the American system so if you’re criticising Americans health system then fuck yeah more power to you.\nYou raise fantastic points about there being non lethal dangers in sex work that are worth considering and harder to measure.\nThat being said, sit for a while and think about whether you think that sex workers are in a job so dangerous that it deserves its own category and shouldn’t even be allowed. (This is what the commenter I was responding to was claiming)\nI’m comfortable I’d ban lumberjack as a profession long before I considered banning prostitution based on relative level of danger and conditions.\nI don’t have a specific statistic but soldiers at an educated guess would probably be more likely to experience danger and mental issues but the commenter I responded to probably never thought for one second about banning soldiers on that basis.\nIt’s clear bias, being rationalised as something it isn’t.",
">\n\nIt's decriminalised where I live, which means women can arrange anything themselves. So you can have a strip club with a \"hotel\" above it. Basically 100% of the workers are foreign, from places like Ukraine. Russia, Moldova, Romania. Etc. It's a strange aspect which isn't often brought up. But\"legalizing \" almost always results on foreign workers undercutting any local workforce. How can a 26 year old American girl from the burbs compete with an 18 year Thai girl? One is fine doing work at basically the rates of a full time McDonald's employee, while the other isn't. And of course, that breeds the type of people you'd imagine running the business. Even in places like Amsterdam, where there's tons of regulation, you get the same trafficking you see anywhere else.\nSo morally. I've got zero problem. But I've just never seen a model that can actually ensure safety for everyone involved.",
">\n\nWell culture is everything isn't it? Of there wasn't so much sex tourism from places that have prostitution illegal there would probably be less demand wouldn't there? Less demand would make the whole industry safer imo due to the loss of money driving the search for foreign market girls\nLike imagine the whole world has a brothel just down the block. Does that make it more safe just by sheer volume and normality?",
">\n\nFirstly, i'm not religious, i'm sex-positive and the sex lives of strangers rarely concerns me. I don't think paying for these services makes you a \"bad\" person, nor a \"disgusting\" one.. but for me, it would affect your desirability to me as a partner. To me attraction is a big thing, and i'll be honest, I see it as kind of lame. Not morally corrupt but just ...desperate. \nI would want my partner to be someone that women wanted to have sex with, not the man that they had sex with as a purely profitable transaction. Whilst it's consensual, when you involve money or a benefit other than sex, the line slightly blurs, and I find it becomes icky. \nIt's not even that I think my partner should only have had strictly intimate and personable relations... but the question does spring to mind of \"is sex that has been paid for truly consensual? can you guarantee that?\" Even popular Pornstars who previously agreed to do porn and made careers out of it have stories where they later felt disgusted by what they've had to do but were so enamored by the money, they went through with it. Sex workers will ALWAYS sell a positive image to their clients, part of their job is to make you feel desired, but you never truly know the reality. \nAll in all, it can be seen as \"bad\" or \"disgusting\" because monetary rewards affects the lines of purely consensual sex. The same way it can be icky for a boss to have sex with the intern, the same way directors have sex with actresses that want to star in their movies, and the same way rockstars have sex with their fans. Doesn't make 'em rapists, but it's why people won't look at it as respectable.",
">\n\nyou aren’t sex positive if you think paying for sex is desperate.\ndoes paying for alcohol mean you’re desperate for happiness? some people want to have fun so they buy drinks, others find more fun in sex. as long as sex work is consensual and not the result of pimping or some other form of coercion then I don’t see any harm or how it would be desperate.\nthere are tangible benefits to buying sex vs finding it “naturally” that i don’t think you’re considering. \nwith sex workers you’re safer and don’t have to worry about pregnancy, theft, psychotic women, and other risks that come from random hookups with strangers or even casual dating. there’s also the whole “i don’t need to put time and effort into finding and flirting with someone” when it can be on demand. yea making food at home is usually cheaper and better tasting than takeout but sometimes you’re lazy and want a pizza delivered.",
">\n\nI’m generally sex positive to consensual sex between people. However, everything falls on a spectrum and I don’t think you have to have a certain view on every avenue to be as such. Much like you can love your job, your country or your friends but that doesn’t mean you can’t provide any forms of criticism nor must you love EVERY aspect of these things. \nI have no disdain for people who hook up on dating apps, clubs, attend sex parties etc. I will always believe sex workers should have right to practice and do so in a safe environment. I also wouldn’t stop their client base either, it’s not my business, but there are ethical implications and I’ve said my view from the perspective of my partner which naturally i hold to a more personable standard. I wouldn’t want to be with someone who puts their sexual desires above the possible implications involved in sex work. \nI do want to touch on your point that as long as it’s not coerced or forced, it’s okay. The ethical implication behind this is that when you involve money, this is not guaranteed. Not all clients will take the time to research the background and extra people involved behind the scenes. The women with pimps and who are trafficked won’t spill those beans to you. Again, there will always be exceptions to the rule. \nI understand that sex work is convenient to many but my perception is not swayed by the mere idea that paying for sex means you get to avoid having to flirt with women. Much like I can understand why people have no choice to purchase fast fashion and I’ll understand the reasoning but that does not mean I should ignore the child labour and poor conditions that make this possible. \nAll in all, I won’t stop you but I’m going to think it’s kinda lame. You can wear an item of clothing, I’ll defend you to wear that clothing and I won’t make you feel bad for wearing it.. but I may not like it myself.",
">\n\nReading your posts made me think of a bird preening it's feathers to attract a mate. I thought it was just you being obtuse untill you brought fashion into this lol\nYou really are just a pair of eyes arnt you. No complexity attached. \"I saw it in the window so I bought it! I didn't even care that it was 500$ I just wanted it because the other girls were eyeing it down and I just HAD to have it💅\"",
">\n\nI genuinely have no idea what you’re trying to convey. The topic of fashion was merely to represent that there are often complexities and nuance. So yes, I can be sex positive but I don’t necessarily have to agree with all the variances within the to topic of sex. \nI assume I’ve hit a nerve for your style of response.",
">\n\nNot sure about everywhere else but in America being as prostitution is illegal a lot of the situations the workers are in are really sad, depressing and predatory. If you take a look at the book “Pimp” by ice berg slim for example a lot of the industry isn’t the ideal some just wants to make money like any other job and the pimp is just a bodyguard/manger,\nA lot of it involves a tone of manipulation and dependency and when you add on the ones where safe sex isn’t a priority and the literal hundreds of partners you engage with in such a short time it all comes off as kinda gross.",
">\n\nSex, when a service, is not the same as any other service. There is a difference between driving a person somewhere in a taxi and having your face fucked and ejaculated on by a stranger. As many have stated before and as you can see in 99% of porn is that sex as a service is usually degrading towards women. Just look at the front page of any given porn site. Most of it is not, in any way, esteeming of the women participating. Look at goddamn blowjob videos. The women are not giving a blowjob - they are getting their face fucked. Extra points if they have to gag and be obviously physically uncomfortable and struggling to breathe. Dude it is just not the same as someone operating a forklift or making flower arrangements. Most of it is degrading and the more degrading the more klicks - the more people who frequent porn sites like it. And it's the same with prostitution. Read about what these women have experienced. It is plain awful. Sure if you are talking about a utopia where you can be 100% sure the prostitutes are there on their own terms and if every single customer is a loving, caring, gentle person taking care of the sex workers needs as much as their own - then yes, there would not be anything wrong with it. But that is just not how it is.\nHow hard is it, even in a healthy loving relationship, to always have both partners perfectly satisfied and met their needs sexually?\nSex is as intimate as human interaction can get and buying that from someone is taking all incentive away to treat the other person as good as you would treat a partner who you love and/or actively want to enjoy the time with you.\nAnd that is what disgusts people about people who frequent prostitutes. The possibility of being a person who, as long as they pay for something or feel like they've done their dues, doesn't give a shit about what the person on the other end is experiencing.\nedit: Because of other comments from OP I accused them of debating rather than discussing and suggested if they were seeking moral validation for what they do, which in itself was not part of a discussion really. I deleted that part because it serves no neutral purpose.",
">\n\nWell in this context not special but very very different, in the way that it is way more intimate, there's actually a part of ones body entering the others. There is exchange of bodily fluids. Those services are different from each other the same way as a massage is different to shoving items across a scanner, just times ten. One is naked, one experiences pleasure (or great pain) and one is not using their body to do something, they are having their body be used by someone else. That can leave physical bruises and mental scars because one is extremely vulnerable in the act.",
">\n\nMy view on it is that the act in itself is not wrong for anybody involved, but the character implication is what causes it to be met with disgust by some.\nIf you have money and you pay for sex from somebody who is willing, then it's no problem, but the issue comes when you delve into why they might be paying for sex.\nMany people experience sex in a consensual environment with a person who desires sex with them, and no money is involved. Many would view this as a very normal and important part of life.\nThe question that comes up subconsciously and/or consciously is \"why does this person need to pay for sex?\"\nIt could be that they have undeveloped social skills and this coild be deemed as a negative trait that needs to be worked on.\nAnother reason could be an atypically high sex drive, which could also be perceived as sex addiction.\nThese are not unlikely reasons for a person to pay a sex worker for sex and a judgement could be made before understanding more that they possess These sorts of traits that people simply have the desire to avoid.",
">\n\nThis is the correct answer. \nThe reason people look down on people who hire hookers has nothing to do with sex trafficking, or what really qualifies as consent, or any of the other comments in this thread. I think a good example is your iPhone. It is basically made with slave labor, but nobody really gives a shit. They just happily use their phone. If they actually did give a shit, they wouldn't buy iPhones. Also, prostitution has been around basically since the beginning of time. It has always been a part of human relationships and always will be.\nFor better or worse, the reason people look down on people who hire hookers is that it implies you are deficient in some way. If you were better looking or had better social skills or had more control over your base urges you would not need to hire a hooker. \nPersonally, I look at it like a wheelchair. I dont need a wheelchair and I really hope I never need one, but it is not fair (and downright cruel) for me to look down on someone who does use one. Are they deficient in some way? Yes. They can't walk. Do they deserve admonishment or judgement? No. Not at all.",
">\n\nYou're not paying too have sex with a prostitute. You're paying to use her body as a masturbatory aid.\nProstitution reduces women to being commodities, objects, things. Every other job, you're providing a skill to produce or exchange goods and services. Prostitution, the woman is the thing you're purchasing. The women are the commodities, they're not viewed as humen, they're viewed as consumable goods.",
">\n\nJust like almost every other Job, and any other form of sex work like strippers, onlyfans model , some e girl, girls who post theist traps on social media, so what makes those empowering and not this",
">\n\nStrippers, only fans, e-girls are not empowering. It's gross. When it comes down to it, they're sluts. And they're no better than their fuck-boy counterparts.",
">\n\nOK fair so the difference in worldview is what makes argumen unsound to you !delta",
">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/19jals80 (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nYou just can never know for sure whether the sex worker is being trafficked or not. You can't assume they'd tell you the truth if you asked. They might endanger themselves by telling you the truth. The sex worker wants money, and is willing to have some sexual contact with you in order to get the money. But fundamentally, they're permitting you to do something to their body that they do not want in and of itself. Therefore, their consent is dubious and conditional upon your payment. To me, that's not sufficient consent. I want someone I'm having sex with to genuinely, enthusiastically want to have sex with me for the sole purpose of enjoying sex with me. I don't want to use people as means to ends, and I don't want to be used as a means to anyone else's ends.\nI don't morally disapprove of sex work. I just wouldn't support it because it doesn't provide a good or service that interests me. I want actual human connection, which is something money cannot buy. I do morally disapprove of a system that drives people into sex work to get by or get ahead.",
">\n\n\nYou just can never know for sure whether the sex worker is being trafficked or not. \n\nThis argument can be made for any form of low-skilled labor.\nThere is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that sex work uses slavery more often than say construction work or weaving baskets.\nYour argument applies just as easily to buying a shoe, because it could have been constructed by slaves.",
">\n\nYour whataboutism does nothing to resolve the moral question.",
">\n\n“whataboutism” is the new trendy defence for people who've been shown a reductiō ad absurdum it seems.\nI'm showing that your argument can just as easily be used to argue the absurd, and that therefore it can't hold much water. Unless one were to believe in the absurd, and would believe that there is a problem with buying shoes or about any product.",
">\n\nAgain, none of what you've said addresses the moral dilemma in question. Moral questions can't be hand-waved away with empty rhetorical devices. This is still a question of how our choices impact the lives and well-being of others. The fact that we live in a world run by greed does not alleviate the moral burden of making this decision responsibly.",
">\n\nI don't think there is a solid \" yes \" or \" no \" answer to this question. There are so many ( but if's) that it's hard to give more than just an opinion.\n\n\nSpeaking from a Christian perspective, morally, yeah, it's wrong. Because sex is seen as something that's sacred that should be shared between 2 consenting married adults. \n\n\nBut if a woman isn't being forced in any type of way, shape, or form and she simply enjoys cash & realized opening her legs to buyers can get her lots of cash, that's her business. Not anyone else's."
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What is unjustifiable here?
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"/u/Due-Lie-8710 (OP) has awarded 7 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nThere's a song I like that speaks on this fairly poetically, so I'd like to start by just directly quoting it:\n\nSo when you bled on the bed as you fed those expectations, as a whore and not a human, you embraced with hesitation the very parameters of all you can be. Not a mother, not an aunt, not a sister who's not subdued. Because dignity's not physical, and your flesh means more than you.\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.",
">\n\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.\n\nFirst of all if you aren't trafficked it is just like another job, as for you both being seen as human , make sense hey aren't there to befriend to have sex , you are performing a service, it's like you watching football or a movie, you only see them as footballers ot actors , half of the time they don't care about their personal life, there are some jobs that prevent you from getting any high paying jobs or jobs that involve care , as for the people purchasing it , if you can't purchase it then why should they sell it , you don't actually support sex work, because that would mean accepting the consumer base ad well as the supplier",
">\n\nThat’s a really big if though, sex work isn’t exactly an industry where you will know for sure if the service you’re getting is consensual. individuals who are victims of sexual trafficking, coercion, or just life circumstance aren’t likely to just tell their “customers” if it isn’t consensual. they could endanger themselves or not be aware that they can say something. \nSeeing someone as an object vs seeing them as an individual with a job aren’t the same though? yes we recognize actors and football players by their career choice and how well they are at it, but they’re still people at the end of the day? that’s why they have fanbases, interviews, paparazzi, popularity on social media, movie adaptions of their life exist—people are interested in more than them just doing their job.\nA persons job is no reason to suddenly strip them of their humanity and rights granted them for being such, that kind of mentality is morally skewed and why a lot of people would not support sex work. plus you can’t say it makes sense for sex workers to be see as commodities only and then believe sex work will be consensual. the whole consent part comes from recognizing that this is another person who has their own boundaries and limits beyond just what you want.",
">\n\nokay, that’s a plumber and not a person you’re having sex with. unlike plumbing which is clean cut, sex can include multiple aspects of different kinks and fetishes. You can’t expect a sex worker to be okay with say participating in rape play, anal, scat, and a mirage of other kinks simply because they agreed to sex. Sex is not clean cut, there is more to it. There has to be a boundary somewhere, this is another person body not a pipe.",
">\n\nThat’s like the point? recognizing the boundary and proceeding from there by RESPECTING the boundary because they are another person and not some masturbatory object. What you just said was a consensual interaction. The initial point was that there is no consensual sex without respecting the party that’s giving as a person.",
">\n\nSo... there's a concept of a moral hazard. \nThere's literally no way for an individual to be certain that their prostitute is not being coerced/trafficked. Even if there are some special circumstances where it might be unlikely, certainty is still impossible, and most people frequenting prostitutes are not in those special circumstances.\nSomeone using their services is therefore extremely likely to be comfortable with risking that they are unknowingly raping someone. \nGenerally speaking, people find that disgusting.",
">\n\nIf you eat chocolate (even the stuff with the fair trade sticker) then there's no guarantee that it hasn't come from slave farms which are not uncommon. If you eat chocolate throughout your life then you are almost definitely contributing to slavery. If you visit a prostitute regularly then the chance they're being exploited is anywhere from functioninally 0% to 100%. So why treat the John who might be discerning with scorn and not the chocolate eater who is a much safer bet in having contributed to coerced labour.",
">\n\nIt's worth trying to avoid those situations, but ultimately it's a very false equivalence to hold people responsible for the actions of others, vs. their own personal actions.\nWhen you buy chocolate, you're not actually holding a gun to a slave, someone else is. The right answer to that is to lobby for worker protections for imported goods, and to try to end involuntary servitude within your country as well. \nWhen you have sex with a trafficked person, you personally literally raped them. If you don't have good evidence to know they aren't trafficked, you're personally ok with the possibility you're going to personally rape them. \nBoth might be considered bad. But it's a false equivalence.\nAnd sure... if someone is paying someone for sex when they are personal friends with them, and interact with them outside of prostitution enough to personally know that they aren't being trafficked... and you're sure they aren't lying, scorning them more than at most some light ribbing isn't justified. It's not like \"sugar daddies\" aren't a thing as well. At the very least much less disapprobation would be appropriate.",
">\n\nIn both cases, there is a customer receiving a service provided by a potentially enslaved person. They are morally equivalent. It makes no sense to say “sure I bought the slavery chocolate, but you can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”",
">\n\n\nyou can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”\n\nThe slavers actions are distinct from the consumers' actions for most things. \nThis is an actual important difference when it comes to prostitution. \nIgnoring that fundamental difference doesn't make it go away, and it's entirely reasonable for someone to make that distinction.",
">\n\nThe slaver and consumer are different people who take different actions in the prostitution scenario. The consumer in both scenarios is taking the risk of being immoral. If I force you to be my slave that’s still immoral whether or not I put you to work in my brothel or mine or factory or fishing boat. And if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever, it’s equivalent.",
">\n\n\nAnd if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever , it’s equivalent.\n\nThis is where the false equivalence comes in. \nSomeone making products with slave labor is not renting out a slave to the consumer so that they consumer can force them to perform mining for the consumer. They are enslaving the labor to create a product, and selling the product. Products don't have rights to violate. The only person violating the rights of the slave is the slaver.\nSomeone trafficking a victim is renting out that victim so that the consumer can rape them.",
">\n\nIf the sex is only contractual to you? Why not just \"hook up.\" Why pay? You will never be able to guarantee they are not being trafficked. If they are, they are not going to tell you. I think the idea of money exchanging hands for sex is the why most have a problem. The idea that you are giving a woman money for sex has been historically seen as her being a whore. \nI am not saying she is. I am saying that from the time it first exchanged hands, that is what it was. Men who could not find a woman, paid a woman. Why do you want others to see it differently? Yes, there will be outliers that will enjoy the work. But those are going to be ones that, like the escort, chose it, and charge what they want. Not the typical street hookers on the corner with pimps to pay. \nProve they are not trafficked, they work for themselves, they are clean (of both drugs and diseases - because they are taking care of themselves and being safe), and that they are a sex worker because they enjoy the work or that that chose the work. Then, hey! Pay 'em and get to it!",
">\n\nI think it is morally unhealthy to normalize it. Even though you have to be an adult to smoke weed, we definitely see weed as a normal thing to do in moderation compared to a few decades ago. This is how we would see prostitution if it was normalized. And I think weed has a lot less complications than legalizing prostitution. A LOT!\nSex work online is a lot safer and requires a lot less mental issues to engage in and promote. But even then, I know some sex workers (online type), and they are scarred by the stuff they have seen when it comes to their job. They have told me stories that are extremely disturbing. These are women who just do stuff by themselves. Not working with a porn company and other people.\nAlso, sex has a huge reputation for being violent and demoralizing towards women in general. I'd assume those numbers would be much higher in men looking to pay for sex. You'd have to have extremely strict and tight regulations for this sort of thing, which would take the fun out of it for a lot of people. And even then, there would still be many mistakes that would happen before we find out all the regulations that are needed. And I don't think we could ever make it mentally and physically safe for women.\nNow, do I think it should be decriminalized for prostitutes? Definitely. I don't see them as disgusting. I feel quite bad for them. Most of them were trafficked at a young age. Do I see men wanting to pay for sex as disgusting? Not necessarily. It depends on the person and the situation. However, this isn't a simple issue where if we just \"stop judging people,\" everything will be fine.",
">\n\nDecriminalizing prostitution for both those selling and buying is demonstrably safer for prostitutes. If it is criminal for the buyer but not the seller, the buyer is often highly defensive and paranoid about the seller, specifically the possibility that they may be working with law enforcement. The buyer will often push to do it in a highly isolated setting as well. These things increase violence that sex workers face, and the averages go down in places where it is decriminalized to both buy and sell. If you have a designated work place for it and no one needs to be distrustful and worried about being arrested, that is the safest situation for all involved. \nWe may disagree with buying it for whatever moral reason, but if we choose to criminalize the purchase of it, we are prioritizing punishing behavior we morally disagree with over prioritizing the safety of those involved, which I can't get behind.",
">\n\nBut there are so many more facets to the safety of legalizing it for the buyer other than them being pushy or wanting to do it in a hidden area. If we legalized it, it still wouldn't really help any of the points I made or is even something that is so overwhelmingly an issue compared to the points I made.",
">\n\nSo long as we have to work to live, all jobs are coercive, even sex work. I’m skeptical that there can ever be a consensual exchange within our current economic context.",
">\n\nExactly , I get sex is intimate but if you are willing to view sex work as any other job , you should be willing to treat it as such",
">\n\nSex work has certain occupational hazards that cannot be regulated away. OSHA (in the US) dictates that a person cannot be subject to bodily fluids without proper PPE in the workplace, and often johns just need to pay more to not wear a condom. Imagine a construction site paying workers more to not wear a hard hat. The greater potential for bodily harm is intrinsic to the work, and it will always be unsafe.",
">\n\nTrue but this doesn't really answer my question",
">\n\nMy point is that treating it like any other job is not ethically possible due to hazardous conditions",
">\n\nThis is a bad take.\nI’d wager prostitution doesn’t even rank in the top ten dangerous jobs by capita.",
">\n\nThat really depends. A gas station cashier likely has a higher risk of being killed. But a quick Google shows sex workers are thirty times more likely to get Aids than the general population. They're also at ridiculously high rates of risk to their mental health. Ptsd is common. Also, yes, sitting at a counter in a gas station is technically dangerous. But it is different type of danger compared to someone fucking them in the ass while shoving a sock in their mouth and calling them a dirty whore. When this happens to a prostitute, since she isn't dead, then all good right?! :) Her job isn't dangerous, she's still alive! And they're really not paid much. Average pay for a sex scene in porn for a woman is around $600, for the guy it's like a hundred. For prostitution you're looking at a hundred to two hundred dollars. \nAlso, if you're in the us. Good luck affording health insurance as an independent contractor engaged in sex work.",
">\n\nI’m not exactly impressed with the American system so if you’re criticising Americans health system then fuck yeah more power to you.\nYou raise fantastic points about there being non lethal dangers in sex work that are worth considering and harder to measure.\nThat being said, sit for a while and think about whether you think that sex workers are in a job so dangerous that it deserves its own category and shouldn’t even be allowed. (This is what the commenter I was responding to was claiming)\nI’m comfortable I’d ban lumberjack as a profession long before I considered banning prostitution based on relative level of danger and conditions.\nI don’t have a specific statistic but soldiers at an educated guess would probably be more likely to experience danger and mental issues but the commenter I responded to probably never thought for one second about banning soldiers on that basis.\nIt’s clear bias, being rationalised as something it isn’t.",
">\n\nIt's decriminalised where I live, which means women can arrange anything themselves. So you can have a strip club with a \"hotel\" above it. Basically 100% of the workers are foreign, from places like Ukraine. Russia, Moldova, Romania. Etc. It's a strange aspect which isn't often brought up. But\"legalizing \" almost always results on foreign workers undercutting any local workforce. How can a 26 year old American girl from the burbs compete with an 18 year Thai girl? One is fine doing work at basically the rates of a full time McDonald's employee, while the other isn't. And of course, that breeds the type of people you'd imagine running the business. Even in places like Amsterdam, where there's tons of regulation, you get the same trafficking you see anywhere else.\nSo morally. I've got zero problem. But I've just never seen a model that can actually ensure safety for everyone involved.",
">\n\nWell culture is everything isn't it? Of there wasn't so much sex tourism from places that have prostitution illegal there would probably be less demand wouldn't there? Less demand would make the whole industry safer imo due to the loss of money driving the search for foreign market girls\nLike imagine the whole world has a brothel just down the block. Does that make it more safe just by sheer volume and normality?",
">\n\nFirstly, i'm not religious, i'm sex-positive and the sex lives of strangers rarely concerns me. I don't think paying for these services makes you a \"bad\" person, nor a \"disgusting\" one.. but for me, it would affect your desirability to me as a partner. To me attraction is a big thing, and i'll be honest, I see it as kind of lame. Not morally corrupt but just ...desperate. \nI would want my partner to be someone that women wanted to have sex with, not the man that they had sex with as a purely profitable transaction. Whilst it's consensual, when you involve money or a benefit other than sex, the line slightly blurs, and I find it becomes icky. \nIt's not even that I think my partner should only have had strictly intimate and personable relations... but the question does spring to mind of \"is sex that has been paid for truly consensual? can you guarantee that?\" Even popular Pornstars who previously agreed to do porn and made careers out of it have stories where they later felt disgusted by what they've had to do but were so enamored by the money, they went through with it. Sex workers will ALWAYS sell a positive image to their clients, part of their job is to make you feel desired, but you never truly know the reality. \nAll in all, it can be seen as \"bad\" or \"disgusting\" because monetary rewards affects the lines of purely consensual sex. The same way it can be icky for a boss to have sex with the intern, the same way directors have sex with actresses that want to star in their movies, and the same way rockstars have sex with their fans. Doesn't make 'em rapists, but it's why people won't look at it as respectable.",
">\n\nyou aren’t sex positive if you think paying for sex is desperate.\ndoes paying for alcohol mean you’re desperate for happiness? some people want to have fun so they buy drinks, others find more fun in sex. as long as sex work is consensual and not the result of pimping or some other form of coercion then I don’t see any harm or how it would be desperate.\nthere are tangible benefits to buying sex vs finding it “naturally” that i don’t think you’re considering. \nwith sex workers you’re safer and don’t have to worry about pregnancy, theft, psychotic women, and other risks that come from random hookups with strangers or even casual dating. there’s also the whole “i don’t need to put time and effort into finding and flirting with someone” when it can be on demand. yea making food at home is usually cheaper and better tasting than takeout but sometimes you’re lazy and want a pizza delivered.",
">\n\nI’m generally sex positive to consensual sex between people. However, everything falls on a spectrum and I don’t think you have to have a certain view on every avenue to be as such. Much like you can love your job, your country or your friends but that doesn’t mean you can’t provide any forms of criticism nor must you love EVERY aspect of these things. \nI have no disdain for people who hook up on dating apps, clubs, attend sex parties etc. I will always believe sex workers should have right to practice and do so in a safe environment. I also wouldn’t stop their client base either, it’s not my business, but there are ethical implications and I’ve said my view from the perspective of my partner which naturally i hold to a more personable standard. I wouldn’t want to be with someone who puts their sexual desires above the possible implications involved in sex work. \nI do want to touch on your point that as long as it’s not coerced or forced, it’s okay. The ethical implication behind this is that when you involve money, this is not guaranteed. Not all clients will take the time to research the background and extra people involved behind the scenes. The women with pimps and who are trafficked won’t spill those beans to you. Again, there will always be exceptions to the rule. \nI understand that sex work is convenient to many but my perception is not swayed by the mere idea that paying for sex means you get to avoid having to flirt with women. Much like I can understand why people have no choice to purchase fast fashion and I’ll understand the reasoning but that does not mean I should ignore the child labour and poor conditions that make this possible. \nAll in all, I won’t stop you but I’m going to think it’s kinda lame. You can wear an item of clothing, I’ll defend you to wear that clothing and I won’t make you feel bad for wearing it.. but I may not like it myself.",
">\n\nReading your posts made me think of a bird preening it's feathers to attract a mate. I thought it was just you being obtuse untill you brought fashion into this lol\nYou really are just a pair of eyes arnt you. No complexity attached. \"I saw it in the window so I bought it! I didn't even care that it was 500$ I just wanted it because the other girls were eyeing it down and I just HAD to have it💅\"",
">\n\nI genuinely have no idea what you’re trying to convey. The topic of fashion was merely to represent that there are often complexities and nuance. So yes, I can be sex positive but I don’t necessarily have to agree with all the variances within the to topic of sex. \nI assume I’ve hit a nerve for your style of response.",
">\n\nNot sure about everywhere else but in America being as prostitution is illegal a lot of the situations the workers are in are really sad, depressing and predatory. If you take a look at the book “Pimp” by ice berg slim for example a lot of the industry isn’t the ideal some just wants to make money like any other job and the pimp is just a bodyguard/manger,\nA lot of it involves a tone of manipulation and dependency and when you add on the ones where safe sex isn’t a priority and the literal hundreds of partners you engage with in such a short time it all comes off as kinda gross.",
">\n\nSex, when a service, is not the same as any other service. There is a difference between driving a person somewhere in a taxi and having your face fucked and ejaculated on by a stranger. As many have stated before and as you can see in 99% of porn is that sex as a service is usually degrading towards women. Just look at the front page of any given porn site. Most of it is not, in any way, esteeming of the women participating. Look at goddamn blowjob videos. The women are not giving a blowjob - they are getting their face fucked. Extra points if they have to gag and be obviously physically uncomfortable and struggling to breathe. Dude it is just not the same as someone operating a forklift or making flower arrangements. Most of it is degrading and the more degrading the more klicks - the more people who frequent porn sites like it. And it's the same with prostitution. Read about what these women have experienced. It is plain awful. Sure if you are talking about a utopia where you can be 100% sure the prostitutes are there on their own terms and if every single customer is a loving, caring, gentle person taking care of the sex workers needs as much as their own - then yes, there would not be anything wrong with it. But that is just not how it is.\nHow hard is it, even in a healthy loving relationship, to always have both partners perfectly satisfied and met their needs sexually?\nSex is as intimate as human interaction can get and buying that from someone is taking all incentive away to treat the other person as good as you would treat a partner who you love and/or actively want to enjoy the time with you.\nAnd that is what disgusts people about people who frequent prostitutes. The possibility of being a person who, as long as they pay for something or feel like they've done their dues, doesn't give a shit about what the person on the other end is experiencing.\nedit: Because of other comments from OP I accused them of debating rather than discussing and suggested if they were seeking moral validation for what they do, which in itself was not part of a discussion really. I deleted that part because it serves no neutral purpose.",
">\n\nWell in this context not special but very very different, in the way that it is way more intimate, there's actually a part of ones body entering the others. There is exchange of bodily fluids. Those services are different from each other the same way as a massage is different to shoving items across a scanner, just times ten. One is naked, one experiences pleasure (or great pain) and one is not using their body to do something, they are having their body be used by someone else. That can leave physical bruises and mental scars because one is extremely vulnerable in the act.",
">\n\nMy view on it is that the act in itself is not wrong for anybody involved, but the character implication is what causes it to be met with disgust by some.\nIf you have money and you pay for sex from somebody who is willing, then it's no problem, but the issue comes when you delve into why they might be paying for sex.\nMany people experience sex in a consensual environment with a person who desires sex with them, and no money is involved. Many would view this as a very normal and important part of life.\nThe question that comes up subconsciously and/or consciously is \"why does this person need to pay for sex?\"\nIt could be that they have undeveloped social skills and this coild be deemed as a negative trait that needs to be worked on.\nAnother reason could be an atypically high sex drive, which could also be perceived as sex addiction.\nThese are not unlikely reasons for a person to pay a sex worker for sex and a judgement could be made before understanding more that they possess These sorts of traits that people simply have the desire to avoid.",
">\n\nThis is the correct answer. \nThe reason people look down on people who hire hookers has nothing to do with sex trafficking, or what really qualifies as consent, or any of the other comments in this thread. I think a good example is your iPhone. It is basically made with slave labor, but nobody really gives a shit. They just happily use their phone. If they actually did give a shit, they wouldn't buy iPhones. Also, prostitution has been around basically since the beginning of time. It has always been a part of human relationships and always will be.\nFor better or worse, the reason people look down on people who hire hookers is that it implies you are deficient in some way. If you were better looking or had better social skills or had more control over your base urges you would not need to hire a hooker. \nPersonally, I look at it like a wheelchair. I dont need a wheelchair and I really hope I never need one, but it is not fair (and downright cruel) for me to look down on someone who does use one. Are they deficient in some way? Yes. They can't walk. Do they deserve admonishment or judgement? No. Not at all.",
">\n\nYou're not paying too have sex with a prostitute. You're paying to use her body as a masturbatory aid.\nProstitution reduces women to being commodities, objects, things. Every other job, you're providing a skill to produce or exchange goods and services. Prostitution, the woman is the thing you're purchasing. The women are the commodities, they're not viewed as humen, they're viewed as consumable goods.",
">\n\nJust like almost every other Job, and any other form of sex work like strippers, onlyfans model , some e girl, girls who post theist traps on social media, so what makes those empowering and not this",
">\n\nStrippers, only fans, e-girls are not empowering. It's gross. When it comes down to it, they're sluts. And they're no better than their fuck-boy counterparts.",
">\n\nOK fair so the difference in worldview is what makes argumen unsound to you !delta",
">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/19jals80 (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nYou just can never know for sure whether the sex worker is being trafficked or not. You can't assume they'd tell you the truth if you asked. They might endanger themselves by telling you the truth. The sex worker wants money, and is willing to have some sexual contact with you in order to get the money. But fundamentally, they're permitting you to do something to their body that they do not want in and of itself. Therefore, their consent is dubious and conditional upon your payment. To me, that's not sufficient consent. I want someone I'm having sex with to genuinely, enthusiastically want to have sex with me for the sole purpose of enjoying sex with me. I don't want to use people as means to ends, and I don't want to be used as a means to anyone else's ends.\nI don't morally disapprove of sex work. I just wouldn't support it because it doesn't provide a good or service that interests me. I want actual human connection, which is something money cannot buy. I do morally disapprove of a system that drives people into sex work to get by or get ahead.",
">\n\n\nYou just can never know for sure whether the sex worker is being trafficked or not. \n\nThis argument can be made for any form of low-skilled labor.\nThere is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that sex work uses slavery more often than say construction work or weaving baskets.\nYour argument applies just as easily to buying a shoe, because it could have been constructed by slaves.",
">\n\nYour whataboutism does nothing to resolve the moral question.",
">\n\n“whataboutism” is the new trendy defence for people who've been shown a reductiō ad absurdum it seems.\nI'm showing that your argument can just as easily be used to argue the absurd, and that therefore it can't hold much water. Unless one were to believe in the absurd, and would believe that there is a problem with buying shoes or about any product.",
">\n\nAgain, none of what you've said addresses the moral dilemma in question. Moral questions can't be hand-waved away with empty rhetorical devices. This is still a question of how our choices impact the lives and well-being of others. The fact that we live in a world run by greed does not alleviate the moral burden of making this decision responsibly.",
">\n\nI don't think there is a solid \" yes \" or \" no \" answer to this question. There are so many ( but if's) that it's hard to give more than just an opinion.\n\n\nSpeaking from a Christian perspective, morally, yeah, it's wrong. Because sex is seen as something that's sacred that should be shared between 2 consenting married adults. \n\n\nBut if a woman isn't being forced in any type of way, shape, or form and she simply enjoys cash & realized opening her legs to buyers can get her lots of cash, that's her business. Not anyone else's.",
">\n\nTrying to justify yourself?"
] |
>
I recently visited one. Frankly I just sought for intimacy. I asked them to kiss me and just take it slow. Because that’s what I miss in my life: intimacy.
I noticed a lot of people have an opinion on it. I can never tell my parents nor my friends. You can only blame me to be socially maladjusted. I have tried all things I could in dating beforehand and frankly it didn’t work.
So… I think it’s something in my character to seek for a prostitute. I don’t think it should be condemned because everyone seeks what I am seeking. Only difference is some people can find it over Tinder or in their social circles, and I have to pay for it. Sorry, I wish it was different but it isn’t.
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[
"/u/Due-Lie-8710 (OP) has awarded 7 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nThere's a song I like that speaks on this fairly poetically, so I'd like to start by just directly quoting it:\n\nSo when you bled on the bed as you fed those expectations, as a whore and not a human, you embraced with hesitation the very parameters of all you can be. Not a mother, not an aunt, not a sister who's not subdued. Because dignity's not physical, and your flesh means more than you.\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.",
">\n\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.\n\nFirst of all if you aren't trafficked it is just like another job, as for you both being seen as human , make sense hey aren't there to befriend to have sex , you are performing a service, it's like you watching football or a movie, you only see them as footballers ot actors , half of the time they don't care about their personal life, there are some jobs that prevent you from getting any high paying jobs or jobs that involve care , as for the people purchasing it , if you can't purchase it then why should they sell it , you don't actually support sex work, because that would mean accepting the consumer base ad well as the supplier",
">\n\nThat’s a really big if though, sex work isn’t exactly an industry where you will know for sure if the service you’re getting is consensual. individuals who are victims of sexual trafficking, coercion, or just life circumstance aren’t likely to just tell their “customers” if it isn’t consensual. they could endanger themselves or not be aware that they can say something. \nSeeing someone as an object vs seeing them as an individual with a job aren’t the same though? yes we recognize actors and football players by their career choice and how well they are at it, but they’re still people at the end of the day? that’s why they have fanbases, interviews, paparazzi, popularity on social media, movie adaptions of their life exist—people are interested in more than them just doing their job.\nA persons job is no reason to suddenly strip them of their humanity and rights granted them for being such, that kind of mentality is morally skewed and why a lot of people would not support sex work. plus you can’t say it makes sense for sex workers to be see as commodities only and then believe sex work will be consensual. the whole consent part comes from recognizing that this is another person who has their own boundaries and limits beyond just what you want.",
">\n\nokay, that’s a plumber and not a person you’re having sex with. unlike plumbing which is clean cut, sex can include multiple aspects of different kinks and fetishes. You can’t expect a sex worker to be okay with say participating in rape play, anal, scat, and a mirage of other kinks simply because they agreed to sex. Sex is not clean cut, there is more to it. There has to be a boundary somewhere, this is another person body not a pipe.",
">\n\nThat’s like the point? recognizing the boundary and proceeding from there by RESPECTING the boundary because they are another person and not some masturbatory object. What you just said was a consensual interaction. The initial point was that there is no consensual sex without respecting the party that’s giving as a person.",
">\n\nSo... there's a concept of a moral hazard. \nThere's literally no way for an individual to be certain that their prostitute is not being coerced/trafficked. Even if there are some special circumstances where it might be unlikely, certainty is still impossible, and most people frequenting prostitutes are not in those special circumstances.\nSomeone using their services is therefore extremely likely to be comfortable with risking that they are unknowingly raping someone. \nGenerally speaking, people find that disgusting.",
">\n\nIf you eat chocolate (even the stuff with the fair trade sticker) then there's no guarantee that it hasn't come from slave farms which are not uncommon. If you eat chocolate throughout your life then you are almost definitely contributing to slavery. If you visit a prostitute regularly then the chance they're being exploited is anywhere from functioninally 0% to 100%. So why treat the John who might be discerning with scorn and not the chocolate eater who is a much safer bet in having contributed to coerced labour.",
">\n\nIt's worth trying to avoid those situations, but ultimately it's a very false equivalence to hold people responsible for the actions of others, vs. their own personal actions.\nWhen you buy chocolate, you're not actually holding a gun to a slave, someone else is. The right answer to that is to lobby for worker protections for imported goods, and to try to end involuntary servitude within your country as well. \nWhen you have sex with a trafficked person, you personally literally raped them. If you don't have good evidence to know they aren't trafficked, you're personally ok with the possibility you're going to personally rape them. \nBoth might be considered bad. But it's a false equivalence.\nAnd sure... if someone is paying someone for sex when they are personal friends with them, and interact with them outside of prostitution enough to personally know that they aren't being trafficked... and you're sure they aren't lying, scorning them more than at most some light ribbing isn't justified. It's not like \"sugar daddies\" aren't a thing as well. At the very least much less disapprobation would be appropriate.",
">\n\nIn both cases, there is a customer receiving a service provided by a potentially enslaved person. They are morally equivalent. It makes no sense to say “sure I bought the slavery chocolate, but you can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”",
">\n\n\nyou can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”\n\nThe slavers actions are distinct from the consumers' actions for most things. \nThis is an actual important difference when it comes to prostitution. \nIgnoring that fundamental difference doesn't make it go away, and it's entirely reasonable for someone to make that distinction.",
">\n\nThe slaver and consumer are different people who take different actions in the prostitution scenario. The consumer in both scenarios is taking the risk of being immoral. If I force you to be my slave that’s still immoral whether or not I put you to work in my brothel or mine or factory or fishing boat. And if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever, it’s equivalent.",
">\n\n\nAnd if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever , it’s equivalent.\n\nThis is where the false equivalence comes in. \nSomeone making products with slave labor is not renting out a slave to the consumer so that they consumer can force them to perform mining for the consumer. They are enslaving the labor to create a product, and selling the product. Products don't have rights to violate. The only person violating the rights of the slave is the slaver.\nSomeone trafficking a victim is renting out that victim so that the consumer can rape them.",
">\n\nIf the sex is only contractual to you? Why not just \"hook up.\" Why pay? You will never be able to guarantee they are not being trafficked. If they are, they are not going to tell you. I think the idea of money exchanging hands for sex is the why most have a problem. The idea that you are giving a woman money for sex has been historically seen as her being a whore. \nI am not saying she is. I am saying that from the time it first exchanged hands, that is what it was. Men who could not find a woman, paid a woman. Why do you want others to see it differently? Yes, there will be outliers that will enjoy the work. But those are going to be ones that, like the escort, chose it, and charge what they want. Not the typical street hookers on the corner with pimps to pay. \nProve they are not trafficked, they work for themselves, they are clean (of both drugs and diseases - because they are taking care of themselves and being safe), and that they are a sex worker because they enjoy the work or that that chose the work. Then, hey! Pay 'em and get to it!",
">\n\nI think it is morally unhealthy to normalize it. Even though you have to be an adult to smoke weed, we definitely see weed as a normal thing to do in moderation compared to a few decades ago. This is how we would see prostitution if it was normalized. And I think weed has a lot less complications than legalizing prostitution. A LOT!\nSex work online is a lot safer and requires a lot less mental issues to engage in and promote. But even then, I know some sex workers (online type), and they are scarred by the stuff they have seen when it comes to their job. They have told me stories that are extremely disturbing. These are women who just do stuff by themselves. Not working with a porn company and other people.\nAlso, sex has a huge reputation for being violent and demoralizing towards women in general. I'd assume those numbers would be much higher in men looking to pay for sex. You'd have to have extremely strict and tight regulations for this sort of thing, which would take the fun out of it for a lot of people. And even then, there would still be many mistakes that would happen before we find out all the regulations that are needed. And I don't think we could ever make it mentally and physically safe for women.\nNow, do I think it should be decriminalized for prostitutes? Definitely. I don't see them as disgusting. I feel quite bad for them. Most of them were trafficked at a young age. Do I see men wanting to pay for sex as disgusting? Not necessarily. It depends on the person and the situation. However, this isn't a simple issue where if we just \"stop judging people,\" everything will be fine.",
">\n\nDecriminalizing prostitution for both those selling and buying is demonstrably safer for prostitutes. If it is criminal for the buyer but not the seller, the buyer is often highly defensive and paranoid about the seller, specifically the possibility that they may be working with law enforcement. The buyer will often push to do it in a highly isolated setting as well. These things increase violence that sex workers face, and the averages go down in places where it is decriminalized to both buy and sell. If you have a designated work place for it and no one needs to be distrustful and worried about being arrested, that is the safest situation for all involved. \nWe may disagree with buying it for whatever moral reason, but if we choose to criminalize the purchase of it, we are prioritizing punishing behavior we morally disagree with over prioritizing the safety of those involved, which I can't get behind.",
">\n\nBut there are so many more facets to the safety of legalizing it for the buyer other than them being pushy or wanting to do it in a hidden area. If we legalized it, it still wouldn't really help any of the points I made or is even something that is so overwhelmingly an issue compared to the points I made.",
">\n\nSo long as we have to work to live, all jobs are coercive, even sex work. I’m skeptical that there can ever be a consensual exchange within our current economic context.",
">\n\nExactly , I get sex is intimate but if you are willing to view sex work as any other job , you should be willing to treat it as such",
">\n\nSex work has certain occupational hazards that cannot be regulated away. OSHA (in the US) dictates that a person cannot be subject to bodily fluids without proper PPE in the workplace, and often johns just need to pay more to not wear a condom. Imagine a construction site paying workers more to not wear a hard hat. The greater potential for bodily harm is intrinsic to the work, and it will always be unsafe.",
">\n\nTrue but this doesn't really answer my question",
">\n\nMy point is that treating it like any other job is not ethically possible due to hazardous conditions",
">\n\nThis is a bad take.\nI’d wager prostitution doesn’t even rank in the top ten dangerous jobs by capita.",
">\n\nThat really depends. A gas station cashier likely has a higher risk of being killed. But a quick Google shows sex workers are thirty times more likely to get Aids than the general population. They're also at ridiculously high rates of risk to their mental health. Ptsd is common. Also, yes, sitting at a counter in a gas station is technically dangerous. But it is different type of danger compared to someone fucking them in the ass while shoving a sock in their mouth and calling them a dirty whore. When this happens to a prostitute, since she isn't dead, then all good right?! :) Her job isn't dangerous, she's still alive! And they're really not paid much. Average pay for a sex scene in porn for a woman is around $600, for the guy it's like a hundred. For prostitution you're looking at a hundred to two hundred dollars. \nAlso, if you're in the us. Good luck affording health insurance as an independent contractor engaged in sex work.",
">\n\nI’m not exactly impressed with the American system so if you’re criticising Americans health system then fuck yeah more power to you.\nYou raise fantastic points about there being non lethal dangers in sex work that are worth considering and harder to measure.\nThat being said, sit for a while and think about whether you think that sex workers are in a job so dangerous that it deserves its own category and shouldn’t even be allowed. (This is what the commenter I was responding to was claiming)\nI’m comfortable I’d ban lumberjack as a profession long before I considered banning prostitution based on relative level of danger and conditions.\nI don’t have a specific statistic but soldiers at an educated guess would probably be more likely to experience danger and mental issues but the commenter I responded to probably never thought for one second about banning soldiers on that basis.\nIt’s clear bias, being rationalised as something it isn’t.",
">\n\nIt's decriminalised where I live, which means women can arrange anything themselves. So you can have a strip club with a \"hotel\" above it. Basically 100% of the workers are foreign, from places like Ukraine. Russia, Moldova, Romania. Etc. It's a strange aspect which isn't often brought up. But\"legalizing \" almost always results on foreign workers undercutting any local workforce. How can a 26 year old American girl from the burbs compete with an 18 year Thai girl? One is fine doing work at basically the rates of a full time McDonald's employee, while the other isn't. And of course, that breeds the type of people you'd imagine running the business. Even in places like Amsterdam, where there's tons of regulation, you get the same trafficking you see anywhere else.\nSo morally. I've got zero problem. But I've just never seen a model that can actually ensure safety for everyone involved.",
">\n\nWell culture is everything isn't it? Of there wasn't so much sex tourism from places that have prostitution illegal there would probably be less demand wouldn't there? Less demand would make the whole industry safer imo due to the loss of money driving the search for foreign market girls\nLike imagine the whole world has a brothel just down the block. Does that make it more safe just by sheer volume and normality?",
">\n\nFirstly, i'm not religious, i'm sex-positive and the sex lives of strangers rarely concerns me. I don't think paying for these services makes you a \"bad\" person, nor a \"disgusting\" one.. but for me, it would affect your desirability to me as a partner. To me attraction is a big thing, and i'll be honest, I see it as kind of lame. Not morally corrupt but just ...desperate. \nI would want my partner to be someone that women wanted to have sex with, not the man that they had sex with as a purely profitable transaction. Whilst it's consensual, when you involve money or a benefit other than sex, the line slightly blurs, and I find it becomes icky. \nIt's not even that I think my partner should only have had strictly intimate and personable relations... but the question does spring to mind of \"is sex that has been paid for truly consensual? can you guarantee that?\" Even popular Pornstars who previously agreed to do porn and made careers out of it have stories where they later felt disgusted by what they've had to do but were so enamored by the money, they went through with it. Sex workers will ALWAYS sell a positive image to their clients, part of their job is to make you feel desired, but you never truly know the reality. \nAll in all, it can be seen as \"bad\" or \"disgusting\" because monetary rewards affects the lines of purely consensual sex. The same way it can be icky for a boss to have sex with the intern, the same way directors have sex with actresses that want to star in their movies, and the same way rockstars have sex with their fans. Doesn't make 'em rapists, but it's why people won't look at it as respectable.",
">\n\nyou aren’t sex positive if you think paying for sex is desperate.\ndoes paying for alcohol mean you’re desperate for happiness? some people want to have fun so they buy drinks, others find more fun in sex. as long as sex work is consensual and not the result of pimping or some other form of coercion then I don’t see any harm or how it would be desperate.\nthere are tangible benefits to buying sex vs finding it “naturally” that i don’t think you’re considering. \nwith sex workers you’re safer and don’t have to worry about pregnancy, theft, psychotic women, and other risks that come from random hookups with strangers or even casual dating. there’s also the whole “i don’t need to put time and effort into finding and flirting with someone” when it can be on demand. yea making food at home is usually cheaper and better tasting than takeout but sometimes you’re lazy and want a pizza delivered.",
">\n\nI’m generally sex positive to consensual sex between people. However, everything falls on a spectrum and I don’t think you have to have a certain view on every avenue to be as such. Much like you can love your job, your country or your friends but that doesn’t mean you can’t provide any forms of criticism nor must you love EVERY aspect of these things. \nI have no disdain for people who hook up on dating apps, clubs, attend sex parties etc. I will always believe sex workers should have right to practice and do so in a safe environment. I also wouldn’t stop their client base either, it’s not my business, but there are ethical implications and I’ve said my view from the perspective of my partner which naturally i hold to a more personable standard. I wouldn’t want to be with someone who puts their sexual desires above the possible implications involved in sex work. \nI do want to touch on your point that as long as it’s not coerced or forced, it’s okay. The ethical implication behind this is that when you involve money, this is not guaranteed. Not all clients will take the time to research the background and extra people involved behind the scenes. The women with pimps and who are trafficked won’t spill those beans to you. Again, there will always be exceptions to the rule. \nI understand that sex work is convenient to many but my perception is not swayed by the mere idea that paying for sex means you get to avoid having to flirt with women. Much like I can understand why people have no choice to purchase fast fashion and I’ll understand the reasoning but that does not mean I should ignore the child labour and poor conditions that make this possible. \nAll in all, I won’t stop you but I’m going to think it’s kinda lame. You can wear an item of clothing, I’ll defend you to wear that clothing and I won’t make you feel bad for wearing it.. but I may not like it myself.",
">\n\nReading your posts made me think of a bird preening it's feathers to attract a mate. I thought it was just you being obtuse untill you brought fashion into this lol\nYou really are just a pair of eyes arnt you. No complexity attached. \"I saw it in the window so I bought it! I didn't even care that it was 500$ I just wanted it because the other girls were eyeing it down and I just HAD to have it💅\"",
">\n\nI genuinely have no idea what you’re trying to convey. The topic of fashion was merely to represent that there are often complexities and nuance. So yes, I can be sex positive but I don’t necessarily have to agree with all the variances within the to topic of sex. \nI assume I’ve hit a nerve for your style of response.",
">\n\nNot sure about everywhere else but in America being as prostitution is illegal a lot of the situations the workers are in are really sad, depressing and predatory. If you take a look at the book “Pimp” by ice berg slim for example a lot of the industry isn’t the ideal some just wants to make money like any other job and the pimp is just a bodyguard/manger,\nA lot of it involves a tone of manipulation and dependency and when you add on the ones where safe sex isn’t a priority and the literal hundreds of partners you engage with in such a short time it all comes off as kinda gross.",
">\n\nSex, when a service, is not the same as any other service. There is a difference between driving a person somewhere in a taxi and having your face fucked and ejaculated on by a stranger. As many have stated before and as you can see in 99% of porn is that sex as a service is usually degrading towards women. Just look at the front page of any given porn site. Most of it is not, in any way, esteeming of the women participating. Look at goddamn blowjob videos. The women are not giving a blowjob - they are getting their face fucked. Extra points if they have to gag and be obviously physically uncomfortable and struggling to breathe. Dude it is just not the same as someone operating a forklift or making flower arrangements. Most of it is degrading and the more degrading the more klicks - the more people who frequent porn sites like it. And it's the same with prostitution. Read about what these women have experienced. It is plain awful. Sure if you are talking about a utopia where you can be 100% sure the prostitutes are there on their own terms and if every single customer is a loving, caring, gentle person taking care of the sex workers needs as much as their own - then yes, there would not be anything wrong with it. But that is just not how it is.\nHow hard is it, even in a healthy loving relationship, to always have both partners perfectly satisfied and met their needs sexually?\nSex is as intimate as human interaction can get and buying that from someone is taking all incentive away to treat the other person as good as you would treat a partner who you love and/or actively want to enjoy the time with you.\nAnd that is what disgusts people about people who frequent prostitutes. The possibility of being a person who, as long as they pay for something or feel like they've done their dues, doesn't give a shit about what the person on the other end is experiencing.\nedit: Because of other comments from OP I accused them of debating rather than discussing and suggested if they were seeking moral validation for what they do, which in itself was not part of a discussion really. I deleted that part because it serves no neutral purpose.",
">\n\nWell in this context not special but very very different, in the way that it is way more intimate, there's actually a part of ones body entering the others. There is exchange of bodily fluids. Those services are different from each other the same way as a massage is different to shoving items across a scanner, just times ten. One is naked, one experiences pleasure (or great pain) and one is not using their body to do something, they are having their body be used by someone else. That can leave physical bruises and mental scars because one is extremely vulnerable in the act.",
">\n\nMy view on it is that the act in itself is not wrong for anybody involved, but the character implication is what causes it to be met with disgust by some.\nIf you have money and you pay for sex from somebody who is willing, then it's no problem, but the issue comes when you delve into why they might be paying for sex.\nMany people experience sex in a consensual environment with a person who desires sex with them, and no money is involved. Many would view this as a very normal and important part of life.\nThe question that comes up subconsciously and/or consciously is \"why does this person need to pay for sex?\"\nIt could be that they have undeveloped social skills and this coild be deemed as a negative trait that needs to be worked on.\nAnother reason could be an atypically high sex drive, which could also be perceived as sex addiction.\nThese are not unlikely reasons for a person to pay a sex worker for sex and a judgement could be made before understanding more that they possess These sorts of traits that people simply have the desire to avoid.",
">\n\nThis is the correct answer. \nThe reason people look down on people who hire hookers has nothing to do with sex trafficking, or what really qualifies as consent, or any of the other comments in this thread. I think a good example is your iPhone. It is basically made with slave labor, but nobody really gives a shit. They just happily use their phone. If they actually did give a shit, they wouldn't buy iPhones. Also, prostitution has been around basically since the beginning of time. It has always been a part of human relationships and always will be.\nFor better or worse, the reason people look down on people who hire hookers is that it implies you are deficient in some way. If you were better looking or had better social skills or had more control over your base urges you would not need to hire a hooker. \nPersonally, I look at it like a wheelchair. I dont need a wheelchair and I really hope I never need one, but it is not fair (and downright cruel) for me to look down on someone who does use one. Are they deficient in some way? Yes. They can't walk. Do they deserve admonishment or judgement? No. Not at all.",
">\n\nYou're not paying too have sex with a prostitute. You're paying to use her body as a masturbatory aid.\nProstitution reduces women to being commodities, objects, things. Every other job, you're providing a skill to produce or exchange goods and services. Prostitution, the woman is the thing you're purchasing. The women are the commodities, they're not viewed as humen, they're viewed as consumable goods.",
">\n\nJust like almost every other Job, and any other form of sex work like strippers, onlyfans model , some e girl, girls who post theist traps on social media, so what makes those empowering and not this",
">\n\nStrippers, only fans, e-girls are not empowering. It's gross. When it comes down to it, they're sluts. And they're no better than their fuck-boy counterparts.",
">\n\nOK fair so the difference in worldview is what makes argumen unsound to you !delta",
">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/19jals80 (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nYou just can never know for sure whether the sex worker is being trafficked or not. You can't assume they'd tell you the truth if you asked. They might endanger themselves by telling you the truth. The sex worker wants money, and is willing to have some sexual contact with you in order to get the money. But fundamentally, they're permitting you to do something to their body that they do not want in and of itself. Therefore, their consent is dubious and conditional upon your payment. To me, that's not sufficient consent. I want someone I'm having sex with to genuinely, enthusiastically want to have sex with me for the sole purpose of enjoying sex with me. I don't want to use people as means to ends, and I don't want to be used as a means to anyone else's ends.\nI don't morally disapprove of sex work. I just wouldn't support it because it doesn't provide a good or service that interests me. I want actual human connection, which is something money cannot buy. I do morally disapprove of a system that drives people into sex work to get by or get ahead.",
">\n\n\nYou just can never know for sure whether the sex worker is being trafficked or not. \n\nThis argument can be made for any form of low-skilled labor.\nThere is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that sex work uses slavery more often than say construction work or weaving baskets.\nYour argument applies just as easily to buying a shoe, because it could have been constructed by slaves.",
">\n\nYour whataboutism does nothing to resolve the moral question.",
">\n\n“whataboutism” is the new trendy defence for people who've been shown a reductiō ad absurdum it seems.\nI'm showing that your argument can just as easily be used to argue the absurd, and that therefore it can't hold much water. Unless one were to believe in the absurd, and would believe that there is a problem with buying shoes or about any product.",
">\n\nAgain, none of what you've said addresses the moral dilemma in question. Moral questions can't be hand-waved away with empty rhetorical devices. This is still a question of how our choices impact the lives and well-being of others. The fact that we live in a world run by greed does not alleviate the moral burden of making this decision responsibly.",
">\n\nI don't think there is a solid \" yes \" or \" no \" answer to this question. There are so many ( but if's) that it's hard to give more than just an opinion.\n\n\nSpeaking from a Christian perspective, morally, yeah, it's wrong. Because sex is seen as something that's sacred that should be shared between 2 consenting married adults. \n\n\nBut if a woman isn't being forced in any type of way, shape, or form and she simply enjoys cash & realized opening her legs to buyers can get her lots of cash, that's her business. Not anyone else's.",
">\n\nTrying to justify yourself?",
">\n\nWhat is unjustifiable here?"
] |
>
Interesting post. Thanks.
What would you see that would make you change your mind?
sex is considered intimate and special to some people
What if sex is objectively intimate and special, as opposed to “some people” finding it subjectively intimate and special? Would that change your mind?
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[
"/u/Due-Lie-8710 (OP) has awarded 7 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nThere's a song I like that speaks on this fairly poetically, so I'd like to start by just directly quoting it:\n\nSo when you bled on the bed as you fed those expectations, as a whore and not a human, you embraced with hesitation the very parameters of all you can be. Not a mother, not an aunt, not a sister who's not subdued. Because dignity's not physical, and your flesh means more than you.\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.",
">\n\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.\n\nFirst of all if you aren't trafficked it is just like another job, as for you both being seen as human , make sense hey aren't there to befriend to have sex , you are performing a service, it's like you watching football or a movie, you only see them as footballers ot actors , half of the time they don't care about their personal life, there are some jobs that prevent you from getting any high paying jobs or jobs that involve care , as for the people purchasing it , if you can't purchase it then why should they sell it , you don't actually support sex work, because that would mean accepting the consumer base ad well as the supplier",
">\n\nThat’s a really big if though, sex work isn’t exactly an industry where you will know for sure if the service you’re getting is consensual. individuals who are victims of sexual trafficking, coercion, or just life circumstance aren’t likely to just tell their “customers” if it isn’t consensual. they could endanger themselves or not be aware that they can say something. \nSeeing someone as an object vs seeing them as an individual with a job aren’t the same though? yes we recognize actors and football players by their career choice and how well they are at it, but they’re still people at the end of the day? that’s why they have fanbases, interviews, paparazzi, popularity on social media, movie adaptions of their life exist—people are interested in more than them just doing their job.\nA persons job is no reason to suddenly strip them of their humanity and rights granted them for being such, that kind of mentality is morally skewed and why a lot of people would not support sex work. plus you can’t say it makes sense for sex workers to be see as commodities only and then believe sex work will be consensual. the whole consent part comes from recognizing that this is another person who has their own boundaries and limits beyond just what you want.",
">\n\nokay, that’s a plumber and not a person you’re having sex with. unlike plumbing which is clean cut, sex can include multiple aspects of different kinks and fetishes. You can’t expect a sex worker to be okay with say participating in rape play, anal, scat, and a mirage of other kinks simply because they agreed to sex. Sex is not clean cut, there is more to it. There has to be a boundary somewhere, this is another person body not a pipe.",
">\n\nThat’s like the point? recognizing the boundary and proceeding from there by RESPECTING the boundary because they are another person and not some masturbatory object. What you just said was a consensual interaction. The initial point was that there is no consensual sex without respecting the party that’s giving as a person.",
">\n\nSo... there's a concept of a moral hazard. \nThere's literally no way for an individual to be certain that their prostitute is not being coerced/trafficked. Even if there are some special circumstances where it might be unlikely, certainty is still impossible, and most people frequenting prostitutes are not in those special circumstances.\nSomeone using their services is therefore extremely likely to be comfortable with risking that they are unknowingly raping someone. \nGenerally speaking, people find that disgusting.",
">\n\nIf you eat chocolate (even the stuff with the fair trade sticker) then there's no guarantee that it hasn't come from slave farms which are not uncommon. If you eat chocolate throughout your life then you are almost definitely contributing to slavery. If you visit a prostitute regularly then the chance they're being exploited is anywhere from functioninally 0% to 100%. So why treat the John who might be discerning with scorn and not the chocolate eater who is a much safer bet in having contributed to coerced labour.",
">\n\nIt's worth trying to avoid those situations, but ultimately it's a very false equivalence to hold people responsible for the actions of others, vs. their own personal actions.\nWhen you buy chocolate, you're not actually holding a gun to a slave, someone else is. The right answer to that is to lobby for worker protections for imported goods, and to try to end involuntary servitude within your country as well. \nWhen you have sex with a trafficked person, you personally literally raped them. If you don't have good evidence to know they aren't trafficked, you're personally ok with the possibility you're going to personally rape them. \nBoth might be considered bad. But it's a false equivalence.\nAnd sure... if someone is paying someone for sex when they are personal friends with them, and interact with them outside of prostitution enough to personally know that they aren't being trafficked... and you're sure they aren't lying, scorning them more than at most some light ribbing isn't justified. It's not like \"sugar daddies\" aren't a thing as well. At the very least much less disapprobation would be appropriate.",
">\n\nIn both cases, there is a customer receiving a service provided by a potentially enslaved person. They are morally equivalent. It makes no sense to say “sure I bought the slavery chocolate, but you can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”",
">\n\n\nyou can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”\n\nThe slavers actions are distinct from the consumers' actions for most things. \nThis is an actual important difference when it comes to prostitution. \nIgnoring that fundamental difference doesn't make it go away, and it's entirely reasonable for someone to make that distinction.",
">\n\nThe slaver and consumer are different people who take different actions in the prostitution scenario. The consumer in both scenarios is taking the risk of being immoral. If I force you to be my slave that’s still immoral whether or not I put you to work in my brothel or mine or factory or fishing boat. And if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever, it’s equivalent.",
">\n\n\nAnd if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever , it’s equivalent.\n\nThis is where the false equivalence comes in. \nSomeone making products with slave labor is not renting out a slave to the consumer so that they consumer can force them to perform mining for the consumer. They are enslaving the labor to create a product, and selling the product. Products don't have rights to violate. The only person violating the rights of the slave is the slaver.\nSomeone trafficking a victim is renting out that victim so that the consumer can rape them.",
">\n\nIf the sex is only contractual to you? Why not just \"hook up.\" Why pay? You will never be able to guarantee they are not being trafficked. If they are, they are not going to tell you. I think the idea of money exchanging hands for sex is the why most have a problem. The idea that you are giving a woman money for sex has been historically seen as her being a whore. \nI am not saying she is. I am saying that from the time it first exchanged hands, that is what it was. Men who could not find a woman, paid a woman. Why do you want others to see it differently? Yes, there will be outliers that will enjoy the work. But those are going to be ones that, like the escort, chose it, and charge what they want. Not the typical street hookers on the corner with pimps to pay. \nProve they are not trafficked, they work for themselves, they are clean (of both drugs and diseases - because they are taking care of themselves and being safe), and that they are a sex worker because they enjoy the work or that that chose the work. Then, hey! Pay 'em and get to it!",
">\n\nI think it is morally unhealthy to normalize it. Even though you have to be an adult to smoke weed, we definitely see weed as a normal thing to do in moderation compared to a few decades ago. This is how we would see prostitution if it was normalized. And I think weed has a lot less complications than legalizing prostitution. A LOT!\nSex work online is a lot safer and requires a lot less mental issues to engage in and promote. But even then, I know some sex workers (online type), and they are scarred by the stuff they have seen when it comes to their job. They have told me stories that are extremely disturbing. These are women who just do stuff by themselves. Not working with a porn company and other people.\nAlso, sex has a huge reputation for being violent and demoralizing towards women in general. I'd assume those numbers would be much higher in men looking to pay for sex. You'd have to have extremely strict and tight regulations for this sort of thing, which would take the fun out of it for a lot of people. And even then, there would still be many mistakes that would happen before we find out all the regulations that are needed. And I don't think we could ever make it mentally and physically safe for women.\nNow, do I think it should be decriminalized for prostitutes? Definitely. I don't see them as disgusting. I feel quite bad for them. Most of them were trafficked at a young age. Do I see men wanting to pay for sex as disgusting? Not necessarily. It depends on the person and the situation. However, this isn't a simple issue where if we just \"stop judging people,\" everything will be fine.",
">\n\nDecriminalizing prostitution for both those selling and buying is demonstrably safer for prostitutes. If it is criminal for the buyer but not the seller, the buyer is often highly defensive and paranoid about the seller, specifically the possibility that they may be working with law enforcement. The buyer will often push to do it in a highly isolated setting as well. These things increase violence that sex workers face, and the averages go down in places where it is decriminalized to both buy and sell. If you have a designated work place for it and no one needs to be distrustful and worried about being arrested, that is the safest situation for all involved. \nWe may disagree with buying it for whatever moral reason, but if we choose to criminalize the purchase of it, we are prioritizing punishing behavior we morally disagree with over prioritizing the safety of those involved, which I can't get behind.",
">\n\nBut there are so many more facets to the safety of legalizing it for the buyer other than them being pushy or wanting to do it in a hidden area. If we legalized it, it still wouldn't really help any of the points I made or is even something that is so overwhelmingly an issue compared to the points I made.",
">\n\nSo long as we have to work to live, all jobs are coercive, even sex work. I’m skeptical that there can ever be a consensual exchange within our current economic context.",
">\n\nExactly , I get sex is intimate but if you are willing to view sex work as any other job , you should be willing to treat it as such",
">\n\nSex work has certain occupational hazards that cannot be regulated away. OSHA (in the US) dictates that a person cannot be subject to bodily fluids without proper PPE in the workplace, and often johns just need to pay more to not wear a condom. Imagine a construction site paying workers more to not wear a hard hat. The greater potential for bodily harm is intrinsic to the work, and it will always be unsafe.",
">\n\nTrue but this doesn't really answer my question",
">\n\nMy point is that treating it like any other job is not ethically possible due to hazardous conditions",
">\n\nThis is a bad take.\nI’d wager prostitution doesn’t even rank in the top ten dangerous jobs by capita.",
">\n\nThat really depends. A gas station cashier likely has a higher risk of being killed. But a quick Google shows sex workers are thirty times more likely to get Aids than the general population. They're also at ridiculously high rates of risk to their mental health. Ptsd is common. Also, yes, sitting at a counter in a gas station is technically dangerous. But it is different type of danger compared to someone fucking them in the ass while shoving a sock in their mouth and calling them a dirty whore. When this happens to a prostitute, since she isn't dead, then all good right?! :) Her job isn't dangerous, she's still alive! And they're really not paid much. Average pay for a sex scene in porn for a woman is around $600, for the guy it's like a hundred. For prostitution you're looking at a hundred to two hundred dollars. \nAlso, if you're in the us. Good luck affording health insurance as an independent contractor engaged in sex work.",
">\n\nI’m not exactly impressed with the American system so if you’re criticising Americans health system then fuck yeah more power to you.\nYou raise fantastic points about there being non lethal dangers in sex work that are worth considering and harder to measure.\nThat being said, sit for a while and think about whether you think that sex workers are in a job so dangerous that it deserves its own category and shouldn’t even be allowed. (This is what the commenter I was responding to was claiming)\nI’m comfortable I’d ban lumberjack as a profession long before I considered banning prostitution based on relative level of danger and conditions.\nI don’t have a specific statistic but soldiers at an educated guess would probably be more likely to experience danger and mental issues but the commenter I responded to probably never thought for one second about banning soldiers on that basis.\nIt’s clear bias, being rationalised as something it isn’t.",
">\n\nIt's decriminalised where I live, which means women can arrange anything themselves. So you can have a strip club with a \"hotel\" above it. Basically 100% of the workers are foreign, from places like Ukraine. Russia, Moldova, Romania. Etc. It's a strange aspect which isn't often brought up. But\"legalizing \" almost always results on foreign workers undercutting any local workforce. How can a 26 year old American girl from the burbs compete with an 18 year Thai girl? One is fine doing work at basically the rates of a full time McDonald's employee, while the other isn't. And of course, that breeds the type of people you'd imagine running the business. Even in places like Amsterdam, where there's tons of regulation, you get the same trafficking you see anywhere else.\nSo morally. I've got zero problem. But I've just never seen a model that can actually ensure safety for everyone involved.",
">\n\nWell culture is everything isn't it? Of there wasn't so much sex tourism from places that have prostitution illegal there would probably be less demand wouldn't there? Less demand would make the whole industry safer imo due to the loss of money driving the search for foreign market girls\nLike imagine the whole world has a brothel just down the block. Does that make it more safe just by sheer volume and normality?",
">\n\nFirstly, i'm not religious, i'm sex-positive and the sex lives of strangers rarely concerns me. I don't think paying for these services makes you a \"bad\" person, nor a \"disgusting\" one.. but for me, it would affect your desirability to me as a partner. To me attraction is a big thing, and i'll be honest, I see it as kind of lame. Not morally corrupt but just ...desperate. \nI would want my partner to be someone that women wanted to have sex with, not the man that they had sex with as a purely profitable transaction. Whilst it's consensual, when you involve money or a benefit other than sex, the line slightly blurs, and I find it becomes icky. \nIt's not even that I think my partner should only have had strictly intimate and personable relations... but the question does spring to mind of \"is sex that has been paid for truly consensual? can you guarantee that?\" Even popular Pornstars who previously agreed to do porn and made careers out of it have stories where they later felt disgusted by what they've had to do but were so enamored by the money, they went through with it. Sex workers will ALWAYS sell a positive image to their clients, part of their job is to make you feel desired, but you never truly know the reality. \nAll in all, it can be seen as \"bad\" or \"disgusting\" because monetary rewards affects the lines of purely consensual sex. The same way it can be icky for a boss to have sex with the intern, the same way directors have sex with actresses that want to star in their movies, and the same way rockstars have sex with their fans. Doesn't make 'em rapists, but it's why people won't look at it as respectable.",
">\n\nyou aren’t sex positive if you think paying for sex is desperate.\ndoes paying for alcohol mean you’re desperate for happiness? some people want to have fun so they buy drinks, others find more fun in sex. as long as sex work is consensual and not the result of pimping or some other form of coercion then I don’t see any harm or how it would be desperate.\nthere are tangible benefits to buying sex vs finding it “naturally” that i don’t think you’re considering. \nwith sex workers you’re safer and don’t have to worry about pregnancy, theft, psychotic women, and other risks that come from random hookups with strangers or even casual dating. there’s also the whole “i don’t need to put time and effort into finding and flirting with someone” when it can be on demand. yea making food at home is usually cheaper and better tasting than takeout but sometimes you’re lazy and want a pizza delivered.",
">\n\nI’m generally sex positive to consensual sex between people. However, everything falls on a spectrum and I don’t think you have to have a certain view on every avenue to be as such. Much like you can love your job, your country or your friends but that doesn’t mean you can’t provide any forms of criticism nor must you love EVERY aspect of these things. \nI have no disdain for people who hook up on dating apps, clubs, attend sex parties etc. I will always believe sex workers should have right to practice and do so in a safe environment. I also wouldn’t stop their client base either, it’s not my business, but there are ethical implications and I’ve said my view from the perspective of my partner which naturally i hold to a more personable standard. I wouldn’t want to be with someone who puts their sexual desires above the possible implications involved in sex work. \nI do want to touch on your point that as long as it’s not coerced or forced, it’s okay. The ethical implication behind this is that when you involve money, this is not guaranteed. Not all clients will take the time to research the background and extra people involved behind the scenes. The women with pimps and who are trafficked won’t spill those beans to you. Again, there will always be exceptions to the rule. \nI understand that sex work is convenient to many but my perception is not swayed by the mere idea that paying for sex means you get to avoid having to flirt with women. Much like I can understand why people have no choice to purchase fast fashion and I’ll understand the reasoning but that does not mean I should ignore the child labour and poor conditions that make this possible. \nAll in all, I won’t stop you but I’m going to think it’s kinda lame. You can wear an item of clothing, I’ll defend you to wear that clothing and I won’t make you feel bad for wearing it.. but I may not like it myself.",
">\n\nReading your posts made me think of a bird preening it's feathers to attract a mate. I thought it was just you being obtuse untill you brought fashion into this lol\nYou really are just a pair of eyes arnt you. No complexity attached. \"I saw it in the window so I bought it! I didn't even care that it was 500$ I just wanted it because the other girls were eyeing it down and I just HAD to have it💅\"",
">\n\nI genuinely have no idea what you’re trying to convey. The topic of fashion was merely to represent that there are often complexities and nuance. So yes, I can be sex positive but I don’t necessarily have to agree with all the variances within the to topic of sex. \nI assume I’ve hit a nerve for your style of response.",
">\n\nNot sure about everywhere else but in America being as prostitution is illegal a lot of the situations the workers are in are really sad, depressing and predatory. If you take a look at the book “Pimp” by ice berg slim for example a lot of the industry isn’t the ideal some just wants to make money like any other job and the pimp is just a bodyguard/manger,\nA lot of it involves a tone of manipulation and dependency and when you add on the ones where safe sex isn’t a priority and the literal hundreds of partners you engage with in such a short time it all comes off as kinda gross.",
">\n\nSex, when a service, is not the same as any other service. There is a difference between driving a person somewhere in a taxi and having your face fucked and ejaculated on by a stranger. As many have stated before and as you can see in 99% of porn is that sex as a service is usually degrading towards women. Just look at the front page of any given porn site. Most of it is not, in any way, esteeming of the women participating. Look at goddamn blowjob videos. The women are not giving a blowjob - they are getting their face fucked. Extra points if they have to gag and be obviously physically uncomfortable and struggling to breathe. Dude it is just not the same as someone operating a forklift or making flower arrangements. Most of it is degrading and the more degrading the more klicks - the more people who frequent porn sites like it. And it's the same with prostitution. Read about what these women have experienced. It is plain awful. Sure if you are talking about a utopia where you can be 100% sure the prostitutes are there on their own terms and if every single customer is a loving, caring, gentle person taking care of the sex workers needs as much as their own - then yes, there would not be anything wrong with it. But that is just not how it is.\nHow hard is it, even in a healthy loving relationship, to always have both partners perfectly satisfied and met their needs sexually?\nSex is as intimate as human interaction can get and buying that from someone is taking all incentive away to treat the other person as good as you would treat a partner who you love and/or actively want to enjoy the time with you.\nAnd that is what disgusts people about people who frequent prostitutes. The possibility of being a person who, as long as they pay for something or feel like they've done their dues, doesn't give a shit about what the person on the other end is experiencing.\nedit: Because of other comments from OP I accused them of debating rather than discussing and suggested if they were seeking moral validation for what they do, which in itself was not part of a discussion really. I deleted that part because it serves no neutral purpose.",
">\n\nWell in this context not special but very very different, in the way that it is way more intimate, there's actually a part of ones body entering the others. There is exchange of bodily fluids. Those services are different from each other the same way as a massage is different to shoving items across a scanner, just times ten. One is naked, one experiences pleasure (or great pain) and one is not using their body to do something, they are having their body be used by someone else. That can leave physical bruises and mental scars because one is extremely vulnerable in the act.",
">\n\nMy view on it is that the act in itself is not wrong for anybody involved, but the character implication is what causes it to be met with disgust by some.\nIf you have money and you pay for sex from somebody who is willing, then it's no problem, but the issue comes when you delve into why they might be paying for sex.\nMany people experience sex in a consensual environment with a person who desires sex with them, and no money is involved. Many would view this as a very normal and important part of life.\nThe question that comes up subconsciously and/or consciously is \"why does this person need to pay for sex?\"\nIt could be that they have undeveloped social skills and this coild be deemed as a negative trait that needs to be worked on.\nAnother reason could be an atypically high sex drive, which could also be perceived as sex addiction.\nThese are not unlikely reasons for a person to pay a sex worker for sex and a judgement could be made before understanding more that they possess These sorts of traits that people simply have the desire to avoid.",
">\n\nThis is the correct answer. \nThe reason people look down on people who hire hookers has nothing to do with sex trafficking, or what really qualifies as consent, or any of the other comments in this thread. I think a good example is your iPhone. It is basically made with slave labor, but nobody really gives a shit. They just happily use their phone. If they actually did give a shit, they wouldn't buy iPhones. Also, prostitution has been around basically since the beginning of time. It has always been a part of human relationships and always will be.\nFor better or worse, the reason people look down on people who hire hookers is that it implies you are deficient in some way. If you were better looking or had better social skills or had more control over your base urges you would not need to hire a hooker. \nPersonally, I look at it like a wheelchair. I dont need a wheelchair and I really hope I never need one, but it is not fair (and downright cruel) for me to look down on someone who does use one. Are they deficient in some way? Yes. They can't walk. Do they deserve admonishment or judgement? No. Not at all.",
">\n\nYou're not paying too have sex with a prostitute. You're paying to use her body as a masturbatory aid.\nProstitution reduces women to being commodities, objects, things. Every other job, you're providing a skill to produce or exchange goods and services. Prostitution, the woman is the thing you're purchasing. The women are the commodities, they're not viewed as humen, they're viewed as consumable goods.",
">\n\nJust like almost every other Job, and any other form of sex work like strippers, onlyfans model , some e girl, girls who post theist traps on social media, so what makes those empowering and not this",
">\n\nStrippers, only fans, e-girls are not empowering. It's gross. When it comes down to it, they're sluts. And they're no better than their fuck-boy counterparts.",
">\n\nOK fair so the difference in worldview is what makes argumen unsound to you !delta",
">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/19jals80 (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nYou just can never know for sure whether the sex worker is being trafficked or not. You can't assume they'd tell you the truth if you asked. They might endanger themselves by telling you the truth. The sex worker wants money, and is willing to have some sexual contact with you in order to get the money. But fundamentally, they're permitting you to do something to their body that they do not want in and of itself. Therefore, their consent is dubious and conditional upon your payment. To me, that's not sufficient consent. I want someone I'm having sex with to genuinely, enthusiastically want to have sex with me for the sole purpose of enjoying sex with me. I don't want to use people as means to ends, and I don't want to be used as a means to anyone else's ends.\nI don't morally disapprove of sex work. I just wouldn't support it because it doesn't provide a good or service that interests me. I want actual human connection, which is something money cannot buy. I do morally disapprove of a system that drives people into sex work to get by or get ahead.",
">\n\n\nYou just can never know for sure whether the sex worker is being trafficked or not. \n\nThis argument can be made for any form of low-skilled labor.\nThere is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that sex work uses slavery more often than say construction work or weaving baskets.\nYour argument applies just as easily to buying a shoe, because it could have been constructed by slaves.",
">\n\nYour whataboutism does nothing to resolve the moral question.",
">\n\n“whataboutism” is the new trendy defence for people who've been shown a reductiō ad absurdum it seems.\nI'm showing that your argument can just as easily be used to argue the absurd, and that therefore it can't hold much water. Unless one were to believe in the absurd, and would believe that there is a problem with buying shoes or about any product.",
">\n\nAgain, none of what you've said addresses the moral dilemma in question. Moral questions can't be hand-waved away with empty rhetorical devices. This is still a question of how our choices impact the lives and well-being of others. The fact that we live in a world run by greed does not alleviate the moral burden of making this decision responsibly.",
">\n\nI don't think there is a solid \" yes \" or \" no \" answer to this question. There are so many ( but if's) that it's hard to give more than just an opinion.\n\n\nSpeaking from a Christian perspective, morally, yeah, it's wrong. Because sex is seen as something that's sacred that should be shared between 2 consenting married adults. \n\n\nBut if a woman isn't being forced in any type of way, shape, or form and she simply enjoys cash & realized opening her legs to buyers can get her lots of cash, that's her business. Not anyone else's.",
">\n\nTrying to justify yourself?",
">\n\nWhat is unjustifiable here?",
">\n\nI recently visited one. Frankly I just sought for intimacy. I asked them to kiss me and just take it slow. Because that’s what I miss in my life: intimacy.\nI noticed a lot of people have an opinion on it. I can never tell my parents nor my friends. You can only blame me to be socially maladjusted. I have tried all things I could in dating beforehand and frankly it didn’t work.\nSo… I think it’s something in my character to seek for a prostitute. I don’t think it should be condemned because everyone seeks what I am seeking. Only difference is some people can find it over Tinder or in their social circles, and I have to pay for it. Sorry, I wish it was different but it isn’t."
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I think in context of religion and this kind of view yes but if you lack this, you are Into causal sex ,and support sex work I don't get it
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"/u/Due-Lie-8710 (OP) has awarded 7 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nThere's a song I like that speaks on this fairly poetically, so I'd like to start by just directly quoting it:\n\nSo when you bled on the bed as you fed those expectations, as a whore and not a human, you embraced with hesitation the very parameters of all you can be. Not a mother, not an aunt, not a sister who's not subdued. Because dignity's not physical, and your flesh means more than you.\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.",
">\n\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.\n\nFirst of all if you aren't trafficked it is just like another job, as for you both being seen as human , make sense hey aren't there to befriend to have sex , you are performing a service, it's like you watching football or a movie, you only see them as footballers ot actors , half of the time they don't care about their personal life, there are some jobs that prevent you from getting any high paying jobs or jobs that involve care , as for the people purchasing it , if you can't purchase it then why should they sell it , you don't actually support sex work, because that would mean accepting the consumer base ad well as the supplier",
">\n\nThat’s a really big if though, sex work isn’t exactly an industry where you will know for sure if the service you’re getting is consensual. individuals who are victims of sexual trafficking, coercion, or just life circumstance aren’t likely to just tell their “customers” if it isn’t consensual. they could endanger themselves or not be aware that they can say something. \nSeeing someone as an object vs seeing them as an individual with a job aren’t the same though? yes we recognize actors and football players by their career choice and how well they are at it, but they’re still people at the end of the day? that’s why they have fanbases, interviews, paparazzi, popularity on social media, movie adaptions of their life exist—people are interested in more than them just doing their job.\nA persons job is no reason to suddenly strip them of their humanity and rights granted them for being such, that kind of mentality is morally skewed and why a lot of people would not support sex work. plus you can’t say it makes sense for sex workers to be see as commodities only and then believe sex work will be consensual. the whole consent part comes from recognizing that this is another person who has their own boundaries and limits beyond just what you want.",
">\n\nokay, that’s a plumber and not a person you’re having sex with. unlike plumbing which is clean cut, sex can include multiple aspects of different kinks and fetishes. You can’t expect a sex worker to be okay with say participating in rape play, anal, scat, and a mirage of other kinks simply because they agreed to sex. Sex is not clean cut, there is more to it. There has to be a boundary somewhere, this is another person body not a pipe.",
">\n\nThat’s like the point? recognizing the boundary and proceeding from there by RESPECTING the boundary because they are another person and not some masturbatory object. What you just said was a consensual interaction. The initial point was that there is no consensual sex without respecting the party that’s giving as a person.",
">\n\nSo... there's a concept of a moral hazard. \nThere's literally no way for an individual to be certain that their prostitute is not being coerced/trafficked. Even if there are some special circumstances where it might be unlikely, certainty is still impossible, and most people frequenting prostitutes are not in those special circumstances.\nSomeone using their services is therefore extremely likely to be comfortable with risking that they are unknowingly raping someone. \nGenerally speaking, people find that disgusting.",
">\n\nIf you eat chocolate (even the stuff with the fair trade sticker) then there's no guarantee that it hasn't come from slave farms which are not uncommon. If you eat chocolate throughout your life then you are almost definitely contributing to slavery. If you visit a prostitute regularly then the chance they're being exploited is anywhere from functioninally 0% to 100%. So why treat the John who might be discerning with scorn and not the chocolate eater who is a much safer bet in having contributed to coerced labour.",
">\n\nIt's worth trying to avoid those situations, but ultimately it's a very false equivalence to hold people responsible for the actions of others, vs. their own personal actions.\nWhen you buy chocolate, you're not actually holding a gun to a slave, someone else is. The right answer to that is to lobby for worker protections for imported goods, and to try to end involuntary servitude within your country as well. \nWhen you have sex with a trafficked person, you personally literally raped them. If you don't have good evidence to know they aren't trafficked, you're personally ok with the possibility you're going to personally rape them. \nBoth might be considered bad. But it's a false equivalence.\nAnd sure... if someone is paying someone for sex when they are personal friends with them, and interact with them outside of prostitution enough to personally know that they aren't being trafficked... and you're sure they aren't lying, scorning them more than at most some light ribbing isn't justified. It's not like \"sugar daddies\" aren't a thing as well. At the very least much less disapprobation would be appropriate.",
">\n\nIn both cases, there is a customer receiving a service provided by a potentially enslaved person. They are morally equivalent. It makes no sense to say “sure I bought the slavery chocolate, but you can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”",
">\n\n\nyou can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”\n\nThe slavers actions are distinct from the consumers' actions for most things. \nThis is an actual important difference when it comes to prostitution. \nIgnoring that fundamental difference doesn't make it go away, and it's entirely reasonable for someone to make that distinction.",
">\n\nThe slaver and consumer are different people who take different actions in the prostitution scenario. The consumer in both scenarios is taking the risk of being immoral. If I force you to be my slave that’s still immoral whether or not I put you to work in my brothel or mine or factory or fishing boat. And if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever, it’s equivalent.",
">\n\n\nAnd if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever , it’s equivalent.\n\nThis is where the false equivalence comes in. \nSomeone making products with slave labor is not renting out a slave to the consumer so that they consumer can force them to perform mining for the consumer. They are enslaving the labor to create a product, and selling the product. Products don't have rights to violate. The only person violating the rights of the slave is the slaver.\nSomeone trafficking a victim is renting out that victim so that the consumer can rape them.",
">\n\nIf the sex is only contractual to you? Why not just \"hook up.\" Why pay? You will never be able to guarantee they are not being trafficked. If they are, they are not going to tell you. I think the idea of money exchanging hands for sex is the why most have a problem. The idea that you are giving a woman money for sex has been historically seen as her being a whore. \nI am not saying she is. I am saying that from the time it first exchanged hands, that is what it was. Men who could not find a woman, paid a woman. Why do you want others to see it differently? Yes, there will be outliers that will enjoy the work. But those are going to be ones that, like the escort, chose it, and charge what they want. Not the typical street hookers on the corner with pimps to pay. \nProve they are not trafficked, they work for themselves, they are clean (of both drugs and diseases - because they are taking care of themselves and being safe), and that they are a sex worker because they enjoy the work or that that chose the work. Then, hey! Pay 'em and get to it!",
">\n\nI think it is morally unhealthy to normalize it. Even though you have to be an adult to smoke weed, we definitely see weed as a normal thing to do in moderation compared to a few decades ago. This is how we would see prostitution if it was normalized. And I think weed has a lot less complications than legalizing prostitution. A LOT!\nSex work online is a lot safer and requires a lot less mental issues to engage in and promote. But even then, I know some sex workers (online type), and they are scarred by the stuff they have seen when it comes to their job. They have told me stories that are extremely disturbing. These are women who just do stuff by themselves. Not working with a porn company and other people.\nAlso, sex has a huge reputation for being violent and demoralizing towards women in general. I'd assume those numbers would be much higher in men looking to pay for sex. You'd have to have extremely strict and tight regulations for this sort of thing, which would take the fun out of it for a lot of people. And even then, there would still be many mistakes that would happen before we find out all the regulations that are needed. And I don't think we could ever make it mentally and physically safe for women.\nNow, do I think it should be decriminalized for prostitutes? Definitely. I don't see them as disgusting. I feel quite bad for them. Most of them were trafficked at a young age. Do I see men wanting to pay for sex as disgusting? Not necessarily. It depends on the person and the situation. However, this isn't a simple issue where if we just \"stop judging people,\" everything will be fine.",
">\n\nDecriminalizing prostitution for both those selling and buying is demonstrably safer for prostitutes. If it is criminal for the buyer but not the seller, the buyer is often highly defensive and paranoid about the seller, specifically the possibility that they may be working with law enforcement. The buyer will often push to do it in a highly isolated setting as well. These things increase violence that sex workers face, and the averages go down in places where it is decriminalized to both buy and sell. If you have a designated work place for it and no one needs to be distrustful and worried about being arrested, that is the safest situation for all involved. \nWe may disagree with buying it for whatever moral reason, but if we choose to criminalize the purchase of it, we are prioritizing punishing behavior we morally disagree with over prioritizing the safety of those involved, which I can't get behind.",
">\n\nBut there are so many more facets to the safety of legalizing it for the buyer other than them being pushy or wanting to do it in a hidden area. If we legalized it, it still wouldn't really help any of the points I made or is even something that is so overwhelmingly an issue compared to the points I made.",
">\n\nSo long as we have to work to live, all jobs are coercive, even sex work. I’m skeptical that there can ever be a consensual exchange within our current economic context.",
">\n\nExactly , I get sex is intimate but if you are willing to view sex work as any other job , you should be willing to treat it as such",
">\n\nSex work has certain occupational hazards that cannot be regulated away. OSHA (in the US) dictates that a person cannot be subject to bodily fluids without proper PPE in the workplace, and often johns just need to pay more to not wear a condom. Imagine a construction site paying workers more to not wear a hard hat. The greater potential for bodily harm is intrinsic to the work, and it will always be unsafe.",
">\n\nTrue but this doesn't really answer my question",
">\n\nMy point is that treating it like any other job is not ethically possible due to hazardous conditions",
">\n\nThis is a bad take.\nI’d wager prostitution doesn’t even rank in the top ten dangerous jobs by capita.",
">\n\nThat really depends. A gas station cashier likely has a higher risk of being killed. But a quick Google shows sex workers are thirty times more likely to get Aids than the general population. They're also at ridiculously high rates of risk to their mental health. Ptsd is common. Also, yes, sitting at a counter in a gas station is technically dangerous. But it is different type of danger compared to someone fucking them in the ass while shoving a sock in their mouth and calling them a dirty whore. When this happens to a prostitute, since she isn't dead, then all good right?! :) Her job isn't dangerous, she's still alive! And they're really not paid much. Average pay for a sex scene in porn for a woman is around $600, for the guy it's like a hundred. For prostitution you're looking at a hundred to two hundred dollars. \nAlso, if you're in the us. Good luck affording health insurance as an independent contractor engaged in sex work.",
">\n\nI’m not exactly impressed with the American system so if you’re criticising Americans health system then fuck yeah more power to you.\nYou raise fantastic points about there being non lethal dangers in sex work that are worth considering and harder to measure.\nThat being said, sit for a while and think about whether you think that sex workers are in a job so dangerous that it deserves its own category and shouldn’t even be allowed. (This is what the commenter I was responding to was claiming)\nI’m comfortable I’d ban lumberjack as a profession long before I considered banning prostitution based on relative level of danger and conditions.\nI don’t have a specific statistic but soldiers at an educated guess would probably be more likely to experience danger and mental issues but the commenter I responded to probably never thought for one second about banning soldiers on that basis.\nIt’s clear bias, being rationalised as something it isn’t.",
">\n\nIt's decriminalised where I live, which means women can arrange anything themselves. So you can have a strip club with a \"hotel\" above it. Basically 100% of the workers are foreign, from places like Ukraine. Russia, Moldova, Romania. Etc. It's a strange aspect which isn't often brought up. But\"legalizing \" almost always results on foreign workers undercutting any local workforce. How can a 26 year old American girl from the burbs compete with an 18 year Thai girl? One is fine doing work at basically the rates of a full time McDonald's employee, while the other isn't. And of course, that breeds the type of people you'd imagine running the business. Even in places like Amsterdam, where there's tons of regulation, you get the same trafficking you see anywhere else.\nSo morally. I've got zero problem. But I've just never seen a model that can actually ensure safety for everyone involved.",
">\n\nWell culture is everything isn't it? Of there wasn't so much sex tourism from places that have prostitution illegal there would probably be less demand wouldn't there? Less demand would make the whole industry safer imo due to the loss of money driving the search for foreign market girls\nLike imagine the whole world has a brothel just down the block. Does that make it more safe just by sheer volume and normality?",
">\n\nFirstly, i'm not religious, i'm sex-positive and the sex lives of strangers rarely concerns me. I don't think paying for these services makes you a \"bad\" person, nor a \"disgusting\" one.. but for me, it would affect your desirability to me as a partner. To me attraction is a big thing, and i'll be honest, I see it as kind of lame. Not morally corrupt but just ...desperate. \nI would want my partner to be someone that women wanted to have sex with, not the man that they had sex with as a purely profitable transaction. Whilst it's consensual, when you involve money or a benefit other than sex, the line slightly blurs, and I find it becomes icky. \nIt's not even that I think my partner should only have had strictly intimate and personable relations... but the question does spring to mind of \"is sex that has been paid for truly consensual? can you guarantee that?\" Even popular Pornstars who previously agreed to do porn and made careers out of it have stories where they later felt disgusted by what they've had to do but were so enamored by the money, they went through with it. Sex workers will ALWAYS sell a positive image to their clients, part of their job is to make you feel desired, but you never truly know the reality. \nAll in all, it can be seen as \"bad\" or \"disgusting\" because monetary rewards affects the lines of purely consensual sex. The same way it can be icky for a boss to have sex with the intern, the same way directors have sex with actresses that want to star in their movies, and the same way rockstars have sex with their fans. Doesn't make 'em rapists, but it's why people won't look at it as respectable.",
">\n\nyou aren’t sex positive if you think paying for sex is desperate.\ndoes paying for alcohol mean you’re desperate for happiness? some people want to have fun so they buy drinks, others find more fun in sex. as long as sex work is consensual and not the result of pimping or some other form of coercion then I don’t see any harm or how it would be desperate.\nthere are tangible benefits to buying sex vs finding it “naturally” that i don’t think you’re considering. \nwith sex workers you’re safer and don’t have to worry about pregnancy, theft, psychotic women, and other risks that come from random hookups with strangers or even casual dating. there’s also the whole “i don’t need to put time and effort into finding and flirting with someone” when it can be on demand. yea making food at home is usually cheaper and better tasting than takeout but sometimes you’re lazy and want a pizza delivered.",
">\n\nI’m generally sex positive to consensual sex between people. However, everything falls on a spectrum and I don’t think you have to have a certain view on every avenue to be as such. Much like you can love your job, your country or your friends but that doesn’t mean you can’t provide any forms of criticism nor must you love EVERY aspect of these things. \nI have no disdain for people who hook up on dating apps, clubs, attend sex parties etc. I will always believe sex workers should have right to practice and do so in a safe environment. I also wouldn’t stop their client base either, it’s not my business, but there are ethical implications and I’ve said my view from the perspective of my partner which naturally i hold to a more personable standard. I wouldn’t want to be with someone who puts their sexual desires above the possible implications involved in sex work. \nI do want to touch on your point that as long as it’s not coerced or forced, it’s okay. The ethical implication behind this is that when you involve money, this is not guaranteed. Not all clients will take the time to research the background and extra people involved behind the scenes. The women with pimps and who are trafficked won’t spill those beans to you. Again, there will always be exceptions to the rule. \nI understand that sex work is convenient to many but my perception is not swayed by the mere idea that paying for sex means you get to avoid having to flirt with women. Much like I can understand why people have no choice to purchase fast fashion and I’ll understand the reasoning but that does not mean I should ignore the child labour and poor conditions that make this possible. \nAll in all, I won’t stop you but I’m going to think it’s kinda lame. You can wear an item of clothing, I’ll defend you to wear that clothing and I won’t make you feel bad for wearing it.. but I may not like it myself.",
">\n\nReading your posts made me think of a bird preening it's feathers to attract a mate. I thought it was just you being obtuse untill you brought fashion into this lol\nYou really are just a pair of eyes arnt you. No complexity attached. \"I saw it in the window so I bought it! I didn't even care that it was 500$ I just wanted it because the other girls were eyeing it down and I just HAD to have it💅\"",
">\n\nI genuinely have no idea what you’re trying to convey. The topic of fashion was merely to represent that there are often complexities and nuance. So yes, I can be sex positive but I don’t necessarily have to agree with all the variances within the to topic of sex. \nI assume I’ve hit a nerve for your style of response.",
">\n\nNot sure about everywhere else but in America being as prostitution is illegal a lot of the situations the workers are in are really sad, depressing and predatory. If you take a look at the book “Pimp” by ice berg slim for example a lot of the industry isn’t the ideal some just wants to make money like any other job and the pimp is just a bodyguard/manger,\nA lot of it involves a tone of manipulation and dependency and when you add on the ones where safe sex isn’t a priority and the literal hundreds of partners you engage with in such a short time it all comes off as kinda gross.",
">\n\nSex, when a service, is not the same as any other service. There is a difference between driving a person somewhere in a taxi and having your face fucked and ejaculated on by a stranger. As many have stated before and as you can see in 99% of porn is that sex as a service is usually degrading towards women. Just look at the front page of any given porn site. Most of it is not, in any way, esteeming of the women participating. Look at goddamn blowjob videos. The women are not giving a blowjob - they are getting their face fucked. Extra points if they have to gag and be obviously physically uncomfortable and struggling to breathe. Dude it is just not the same as someone operating a forklift or making flower arrangements. Most of it is degrading and the more degrading the more klicks - the more people who frequent porn sites like it. And it's the same with prostitution. Read about what these women have experienced. It is plain awful. Sure if you are talking about a utopia where you can be 100% sure the prostitutes are there on their own terms and if every single customer is a loving, caring, gentle person taking care of the sex workers needs as much as their own - then yes, there would not be anything wrong with it. But that is just not how it is.\nHow hard is it, even in a healthy loving relationship, to always have both partners perfectly satisfied and met their needs sexually?\nSex is as intimate as human interaction can get and buying that from someone is taking all incentive away to treat the other person as good as you would treat a partner who you love and/or actively want to enjoy the time with you.\nAnd that is what disgusts people about people who frequent prostitutes. The possibility of being a person who, as long as they pay for something or feel like they've done their dues, doesn't give a shit about what the person on the other end is experiencing.\nedit: Because of other comments from OP I accused them of debating rather than discussing and suggested if they were seeking moral validation for what they do, which in itself was not part of a discussion really. I deleted that part because it serves no neutral purpose.",
">\n\nWell in this context not special but very very different, in the way that it is way more intimate, there's actually a part of ones body entering the others. There is exchange of bodily fluids. Those services are different from each other the same way as a massage is different to shoving items across a scanner, just times ten. One is naked, one experiences pleasure (or great pain) and one is not using their body to do something, they are having their body be used by someone else. That can leave physical bruises and mental scars because one is extremely vulnerable in the act.",
">\n\nMy view on it is that the act in itself is not wrong for anybody involved, but the character implication is what causes it to be met with disgust by some.\nIf you have money and you pay for sex from somebody who is willing, then it's no problem, but the issue comes when you delve into why they might be paying for sex.\nMany people experience sex in a consensual environment with a person who desires sex with them, and no money is involved. Many would view this as a very normal and important part of life.\nThe question that comes up subconsciously and/or consciously is \"why does this person need to pay for sex?\"\nIt could be that they have undeveloped social skills and this coild be deemed as a negative trait that needs to be worked on.\nAnother reason could be an atypically high sex drive, which could also be perceived as sex addiction.\nThese are not unlikely reasons for a person to pay a sex worker for sex and a judgement could be made before understanding more that they possess These sorts of traits that people simply have the desire to avoid.",
">\n\nThis is the correct answer. \nThe reason people look down on people who hire hookers has nothing to do with sex trafficking, or what really qualifies as consent, or any of the other comments in this thread. I think a good example is your iPhone. It is basically made with slave labor, but nobody really gives a shit. They just happily use their phone. If they actually did give a shit, they wouldn't buy iPhones. Also, prostitution has been around basically since the beginning of time. It has always been a part of human relationships and always will be.\nFor better or worse, the reason people look down on people who hire hookers is that it implies you are deficient in some way. If you were better looking or had better social skills or had more control over your base urges you would not need to hire a hooker. \nPersonally, I look at it like a wheelchair. I dont need a wheelchair and I really hope I never need one, but it is not fair (and downright cruel) for me to look down on someone who does use one. Are they deficient in some way? Yes. They can't walk. Do they deserve admonishment or judgement? No. Not at all.",
">\n\nYou're not paying too have sex with a prostitute. You're paying to use her body as a masturbatory aid.\nProstitution reduces women to being commodities, objects, things. Every other job, you're providing a skill to produce or exchange goods and services. Prostitution, the woman is the thing you're purchasing. The women are the commodities, they're not viewed as humen, they're viewed as consumable goods.",
">\n\nJust like almost every other Job, and any other form of sex work like strippers, onlyfans model , some e girl, girls who post theist traps on social media, so what makes those empowering and not this",
">\n\nStrippers, only fans, e-girls are not empowering. It's gross. When it comes down to it, they're sluts. And they're no better than their fuck-boy counterparts.",
">\n\nOK fair so the difference in worldview is what makes argumen unsound to you !delta",
">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/19jals80 (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nYou just can never know for sure whether the sex worker is being trafficked or not. You can't assume they'd tell you the truth if you asked. They might endanger themselves by telling you the truth. The sex worker wants money, and is willing to have some sexual contact with you in order to get the money. But fundamentally, they're permitting you to do something to their body that they do not want in and of itself. Therefore, their consent is dubious and conditional upon your payment. To me, that's not sufficient consent. I want someone I'm having sex with to genuinely, enthusiastically want to have sex with me for the sole purpose of enjoying sex with me. I don't want to use people as means to ends, and I don't want to be used as a means to anyone else's ends.\nI don't morally disapprove of sex work. I just wouldn't support it because it doesn't provide a good or service that interests me. I want actual human connection, which is something money cannot buy. I do morally disapprove of a system that drives people into sex work to get by or get ahead.",
">\n\n\nYou just can never know for sure whether the sex worker is being trafficked or not. \n\nThis argument can be made for any form of low-skilled labor.\nThere is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that sex work uses slavery more often than say construction work or weaving baskets.\nYour argument applies just as easily to buying a shoe, because it could have been constructed by slaves.",
">\n\nYour whataboutism does nothing to resolve the moral question.",
">\n\n“whataboutism” is the new trendy defence for people who've been shown a reductiō ad absurdum it seems.\nI'm showing that your argument can just as easily be used to argue the absurd, and that therefore it can't hold much water. Unless one were to believe in the absurd, and would believe that there is a problem with buying shoes or about any product.",
">\n\nAgain, none of what you've said addresses the moral dilemma in question. Moral questions can't be hand-waved away with empty rhetorical devices. This is still a question of how our choices impact the lives and well-being of others. The fact that we live in a world run by greed does not alleviate the moral burden of making this decision responsibly.",
">\n\nI don't think there is a solid \" yes \" or \" no \" answer to this question. There are so many ( but if's) that it's hard to give more than just an opinion.\n\n\nSpeaking from a Christian perspective, morally, yeah, it's wrong. Because sex is seen as something that's sacred that should be shared between 2 consenting married adults. \n\n\nBut if a woman isn't being forced in any type of way, shape, or form and she simply enjoys cash & realized opening her legs to buyers can get her lots of cash, that's her business. Not anyone else's.",
">\n\nTrying to justify yourself?",
">\n\nWhat is unjustifiable here?",
">\n\nI recently visited one. Frankly I just sought for intimacy. I asked them to kiss me and just take it slow. Because that’s what I miss in my life: intimacy.\nI noticed a lot of people have an opinion on it. I can never tell my parents nor my friends. You can only blame me to be socially maladjusted. I have tried all things I could in dating beforehand and frankly it didn’t work.\nSo… I think it’s something in my character to seek for a prostitute. I don’t think it should be condemned because everyone seeks what I am seeking. Only difference is some people can find it over Tinder or in their social circles, and I have to pay for it. Sorry, I wish it was different but it isn’t.",
">\n\nInteresting post. Thanks.\nWhat would you see that would make you change your mind?\n\nsex is considered intimate and special to some people \n\nWhat if sex is objectively intimate and special, as opposed to “some people” finding it subjectively intimate and special? Would that change your mind?"
] |
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Thanks for the response.
Let’s back up…I think we are missing each other. The sub is called r/changemyview, so I first want to understand your view and then have you tell me what would change it. Alternatively, if nothing would change it, I would like to know that, too.
I think your argument is the following:
P1: Moral oppobrium is an appropriate response only to moral failures.
P2: There is no moral aspect to a consensual sex act.
C1: Therefore, moral oppobrium is not appropriate for (uncoerced) sex workers and their patrons.
Do I have that right? If not, please correct me.
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[
"/u/Due-Lie-8710 (OP) has awarded 7 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nThere's a song I like that speaks on this fairly poetically, so I'd like to start by just directly quoting it:\n\nSo when you bled on the bed as you fed those expectations, as a whore and not a human, you embraced with hesitation the very parameters of all you can be. Not a mother, not an aunt, not a sister who's not subdued. Because dignity's not physical, and your flesh means more than you.\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.",
">\n\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.\n\nFirst of all if you aren't trafficked it is just like another job, as for you both being seen as human , make sense hey aren't there to befriend to have sex , you are performing a service, it's like you watching football or a movie, you only see them as footballers ot actors , half of the time they don't care about their personal life, there are some jobs that prevent you from getting any high paying jobs or jobs that involve care , as for the people purchasing it , if you can't purchase it then why should they sell it , you don't actually support sex work, because that would mean accepting the consumer base ad well as the supplier",
">\n\nThat’s a really big if though, sex work isn’t exactly an industry where you will know for sure if the service you’re getting is consensual. individuals who are victims of sexual trafficking, coercion, or just life circumstance aren’t likely to just tell their “customers” if it isn’t consensual. they could endanger themselves or not be aware that they can say something. \nSeeing someone as an object vs seeing them as an individual with a job aren’t the same though? yes we recognize actors and football players by their career choice and how well they are at it, but they’re still people at the end of the day? that’s why they have fanbases, interviews, paparazzi, popularity on social media, movie adaptions of their life exist—people are interested in more than them just doing their job.\nA persons job is no reason to suddenly strip them of their humanity and rights granted them for being such, that kind of mentality is morally skewed and why a lot of people would not support sex work. plus you can’t say it makes sense for sex workers to be see as commodities only and then believe sex work will be consensual. the whole consent part comes from recognizing that this is another person who has their own boundaries and limits beyond just what you want.",
">\n\nokay, that’s a plumber and not a person you’re having sex with. unlike plumbing which is clean cut, sex can include multiple aspects of different kinks and fetishes. You can’t expect a sex worker to be okay with say participating in rape play, anal, scat, and a mirage of other kinks simply because they agreed to sex. Sex is not clean cut, there is more to it. There has to be a boundary somewhere, this is another person body not a pipe.",
">\n\nThat’s like the point? recognizing the boundary and proceeding from there by RESPECTING the boundary because they are another person and not some masturbatory object. What you just said was a consensual interaction. The initial point was that there is no consensual sex without respecting the party that’s giving as a person.",
">\n\nSo... there's a concept of a moral hazard. \nThere's literally no way for an individual to be certain that their prostitute is not being coerced/trafficked. Even if there are some special circumstances where it might be unlikely, certainty is still impossible, and most people frequenting prostitutes are not in those special circumstances.\nSomeone using their services is therefore extremely likely to be comfortable with risking that they are unknowingly raping someone. \nGenerally speaking, people find that disgusting.",
">\n\nIf you eat chocolate (even the stuff with the fair trade sticker) then there's no guarantee that it hasn't come from slave farms which are not uncommon. If you eat chocolate throughout your life then you are almost definitely contributing to slavery. If you visit a prostitute regularly then the chance they're being exploited is anywhere from functioninally 0% to 100%. So why treat the John who might be discerning with scorn and not the chocolate eater who is a much safer bet in having contributed to coerced labour.",
">\n\nIt's worth trying to avoid those situations, but ultimately it's a very false equivalence to hold people responsible for the actions of others, vs. their own personal actions.\nWhen you buy chocolate, you're not actually holding a gun to a slave, someone else is. The right answer to that is to lobby for worker protections for imported goods, and to try to end involuntary servitude within your country as well. \nWhen you have sex with a trafficked person, you personally literally raped them. If you don't have good evidence to know they aren't trafficked, you're personally ok with the possibility you're going to personally rape them. \nBoth might be considered bad. But it's a false equivalence.\nAnd sure... if someone is paying someone for sex when they are personal friends with them, and interact with them outside of prostitution enough to personally know that they aren't being trafficked... and you're sure they aren't lying, scorning them more than at most some light ribbing isn't justified. It's not like \"sugar daddies\" aren't a thing as well. At the very least much less disapprobation would be appropriate.",
">\n\nIn both cases, there is a customer receiving a service provided by a potentially enslaved person. They are morally equivalent. It makes no sense to say “sure I bought the slavery chocolate, but you can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”",
">\n\n\nyou can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”\n\nThe slavers actions are distinct from the consumers' actions for most things. \nThis is an actual important difference when it comes to prostitution. \nIgnoring that fundamental difference doesn't make it go away, and it's entirely reasonable for someone to make that distinction.",
">\n\nThe slaver and consumer are different people who take different actions in the prostitution scenario. The consumer in both scenarios is taking the risk of being immoral. If I force you to be my slave that’s still immoral whether or not I put you to work in my brothel or mine or factory or fishing boat. And if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever, it’s equivalent.",
">\n\n\nAnd if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever , it’s equivalent.\n\nThis is where the false equivalence comes in. \nSomeone making products with slave labor is not renting out a slave to the consumer so that they consumer can force them to perform mining for the consumer. They are enslaving the labor to create a product, and selling the product. Products don't have rights to violate. The only person violating the rights of the slave is the slaver.\nSomeone trafficking a victim is renting out that victim so that the consumer can rape them.",
">\n\nIf the sex is only contractual to you? Why not just \"hook up.\" Why pay? You will never be able to guarantee they are not being trafficked. If they are, they are not going to tell you. I think the idea of money exchanging hands for sex is the why most have a problem. The idea that you are giving a woman money for sex has been historically seen as her being a whore. \nI am not saying she is. I am saying that from the time it first exchanged hands, that is what it was. Men who could not find a woman, paid a woman. Why do you want others to see it differently? Yes, there will be outliers that will enjoy the work. But those are going to be ones that, like the escort, chose it, and charge what they want. Not the typical street hookers on the corner with pimps to pay. \nProve they are not trafficked, they work for themselves, they are clean (of both drugs and diseases - because they are taking care of themselves and being safe), and that they are a sex worker because they enjoy the work or that that chose the work. Then, hey! Pay 'em and get to it!",
">\n\nI think it is morally unhealthy to normalize it. Even though you have to be an adult to smoke weed, we definitely see weed as a normal thing to do in moderation compared to a few decades ago. This is how we would see prostitution if it was normalized. And I think weed has a lot less complications than legalizing prostitution. A LOT!\nSex work online is a lot safer and requires a lot less mental issues to engage in and promote. But even then, I know some sex workers (online type), and they are scarred by the stuff they have seen when it comes to their job. They have told me stories that are extremely disturbing. These are women who just do stuff by themselves. Not working with a porn company and other people.\nAlso, sex has a huge reputation for being violent and demoralizing towards women in general. I'd assume those numbers would be much higher in men looking to pay for sex. You'd have to have extremely strict and tight regulations for this sort of thing, which would take the fun out of it for a lot of people. And even then, there would still be many mistakes that would happen before we find out all the regulations that are needed. And I don't think we could ever make it mentally and physically safe for women.\nNow, do I think it should be decriminalized for prostitutes? Definitely. I don't see them as disgusting. I feel quite bad for them. Most of them were trafficked at a young age. Do I see men wanting to pay for sex as disgusting? Not necessarily. It depends on the person and the situation. However, this isn't a simple issue where if we just \"stop judging people,\" everything will be fine.",
">\n\nDecriminalizing prostitution for both those selling and buying is demonstrably safer for prostitutes. If it is criminal for the buyer but not the seller, the buyer is often highly defensive and paranoid about the seller, specifically the possibility that they may be working with law enforcement. The buyer will often push to do it in a highly isolated setting as well. These things increase violence that sex workers face, and the averages go down in places where it is decriminalized to both buy and sell. If you have a designated work place for it and no one needs to be distrustful and worried about being arrested, that is the safest situation for all involved. \nWe may disagree with buying it for whatever moral reason, but if we choose to criminalize the purchase of it, we are prioritizing punishing behavior we morally disagree with over prioritizing the safety of those involved, which I can't get behind.",
">\n\nBut there are so many more facets to the safety of legalizing it for the buyer other than them being pushy or wanting to do it in a hidden area. If we legalized it, it still wouldn't really help any of the points I made or is even something that is so overwhelmingly an issue compared to the points I made.",
">\n\nSo long as we have to work to live, all jobs are coercive, even sex work. I’m skeptical that there can ever be a consensual exchange within our current economic context.",
">\n\nExactly , I get sex is intimate but if you are willing to view sex work as any other job , you should be willing to treat it as such",
">\n\nSex work has certain occupational hazards that cannot be regulated away. OSHA (in the US) dictates that a person cannot be subject to bodily fluids without proper PPE in the workplace, and often johns just need to pay more to not wear a condom. Imagine a construction site paying workers more to not wear a hard hat. The greater potential for bodily harm is intrinsic to the work, and it will always be unsafe.",
">\n\nTrue but this doesn't really answer my question",
">\n\nMy point is that treating it like any other job is not ethically possible due to hazardous conditions",
">\n\nThis is a bad take.\nI’d wager prostitution doesn’t even rank in the top ten dangerous jobs by capita.",
">\n\nThat really depends. A gas station cashier likely has a higher risk of being killed. But a quick Google shows sex workers are thirty times more likely to get Aids than the general population. They're also at ridiculously high rates of risk to their mental health. Ptsd is common. Also, yes, sitting at a counter in a gas station is technically dangerous. But it is different type of danger compared to someone fucking them in the ass while shoving a sock in their mouth and calling them a dirty whore. When this happens to a prostitute, since she isn't dead, then all good right?! :) Her job isn't dangerous, she's still alive! And they're really not paid much. Average pay for a sex scene in porn for a woman is around $600, for the guy it's like a hundred. For prostitution you're looking at a hundred to two hundred dollars. \nAlso, if you're in the us. Good luck affording health insurance as an independent contractor engaged in sex work.",
">\n\nI’m not exactly impressed with the American system so if you’re criticising Americans health system then fuck yeah more power to you.\nYou raise fantastic points about there being non lethal dangers in sex work that are worth considering and harder to measure.\nThat being said, sit for a while and think about whether you think that sex workers are in a job so dangerous that it deserves its own category and shouldn’t even be allowed. (This is what the commenter I was responding to was claiming)\nI’m comfortable I’d ban lumberjack as a profession long before I considered banning prostitution based on relative level of danger and conditions.\nI don’t have a specific statistic but soldiers at an educated guess would probably be more likely to experience danger and mental issues but the commenter I responded to probably never thought for one second about banning soldiers on that basis.\nIt’s clear bias, being rationalised as something it isn’t.",
">\n\nIt's decriminalised where I live, which means women can arrange anything themselves. So you can have a strip club with a \"hotel\" above it. Basically 100% of the workers are foreign, from places like Ukraine. Russia, Moldova, Romania. Etc. It's a strange aspect which isn't often brought up. But\"legalizing \" almost always results on foreign workers undercutting any local workforce. How can a 26 year old American girl from the burbs compete with an 18 year Thai girl? One is fine doing work at basically the rates of a full time McDonald's employee, while the other isn't. And of course, that breeds the type of people you'd imagine running the business. Even in places like Amsterdam, where there's tons of regulation, you get the same trafficking you see anywhere else.\nSo morally. I've got zero problem. But I've just never seen a model that can actually ensure safety for everyone involved.",
">\n\nWell culture is everything isn't it? Of there wasn't so much sex tourism from places that have prostitution illegal there would probably be less demand wouldn't there? Less demand would make the whole industry safer imo due to the loss of money driving the search for foreign market girls\nLike imagine the whole world has a brothel just down the block. Does that make it more safe just by sheer volume and normality?",
">\n\nFirstly, i'm not religious, i'm sex-positive and the sex lives of strangers rarely concerns me. I don't think paying for these services makes you a \"bad\" person, nor a \"disgusting\" one.. but for me, it would affect your desirability to me as a partner. To me attraction is a big thing, and i'll be honest, I see it as kind of lame. Not morally corrupt but just ...desperate. \nI would want my partner to be someone that women wanted to have sex with, not the man that they had sex with as a purely profitable transaction. Whilst it's consensual, when you involve money or a benefit other than sex, the line slightly blurs, and I find it becomes icky. \nIt's not even that I think my partner should only have had strictly intimate and personable relations... but the question does spring to mind of \"is sex that has been paid for truly consensual? can you guarantee that?\" Even popular Pornstars who previously agreed to do porn and made careers out of it have stories where they later felt disgusted by what they've had to do but were so enamored by the money, they went through with it. Sex workers will ALWAYS sell a positive image to their clients, part of their job is to make you feel desired, but you never truly know the reality. \nAll in all, it can be seen as \"bad\" or \"disgusting\" because monetary rewards affects the lines of purely consensual sex. The same way it can be icky for a boss to have sex with the intern, the same way directors have sex with actresses that want to star in their movies, and the same way rockstars have sex with their fans. Doesn't make 'em rapists, but it's why people won't look at it as respectable.",
">\n\nyou aren’t sex positive if you think paying for sex is desperate.\ndoes paying for alcohol mean you’re desperate for happiness? some people want to have fun so they buy drinks, others find more fun in sex. as long as sex work is consensual and not the result of pimping or some other form of coercion then I don’t see any harm or how it would be desperate.\nthere are tangible benefits to buying sex vs finding it “naturally” that i don’t think you’re considering. \nwith sex workers you’re safer and don’t have to worry about pregnancy, theft, psychotic women, and other risks that come from random hookups with strangers or even casual dating. there’s also the whole “i don’t need to put time and effort into finding and flirting with someone” when it can be on demand. yea making food at home is usually cheaper and better tasting than takeout but sometimes you’re lazy and want a pizza delivered.",
">\n\nI’m generally sex positive to consensual sex between people. However, everything falls on a spectrum and I don’t think you have to have a certain view on every avenue to be as such. Much like you can love your job, your country or your friends but that doesn’t mean you can’t provide any forms of criticism nor must you love EVERY aspect of these things. \nI have no disdain for people who hook up on dating apps, clubs, attend sex parties etc. I will always believe sex workers should have right to practice and do so in a safe environment. I also wouldn’t stop their client base either, it’s not my business, but there are ethical implications and I’ve said my view from the perspective of my partner which naturally i hold to a more personable standard. I wouldn’t want to be with someone who puts their sexual desires above the possible implications involved in sex work. \nI do want to touch on your point that as long as it’s not coerced or forced, it’s okay. The ethical implication behind this is that when you involve money, this is not guaranteed. Not all clients will take the time to research the background and extra people involved behind the scenes. The women with pimps and who are trafficked won’t spill those beans to you. Again, there will always be exceptions to the rule. \nI understand that sex work is convenient to many but my perception is not swayed by the mere idea that paying for sex means you get to avoid having to flirt with women. Much like I can understand why people have no choice to purchase fast fashion and I’ll understand the reasoning but that does not mean I should ignore the child labour and poor conditions that make this possible. \nAll in all, I won’t stop you but I’m going to think it’s kinda lame. You can wear an item of clothing, I’ll defend you to wear that clothing and I won’t make you feel bad for wearing it.. but I may not like it myself.",
">\n\nReading your posts made me think of a bird preening it's feathers to attract a mate. I thought it was just you being obtuse untill you brought fashion into this lol\nYou really are just a pair of eyes arnt you. No complexity attached. \"I saw it in the window so I bought it! I didn't even care that it was 500$ I just wanted it because the other girls were eyeing it down and I just HAD to have it💅\"",
">\n\nI genuinely have no idea what you’re trying to convey. The topic of fashion was merely to represent that there are often complexities and nuance. So yes, I can be sex positive but I don’t necessarily have to agree with all the variances within the to topic of sex. \nI assume I’ve hit a nerve for your style of response.",
">\n\nNot sure about everywhere else but in America being as prostitution is illegal a lot of the situations the workers are in are really sad, depressing and predatory. If you take a look at the book “Pimp” by ice berg slim for example a lot of the industry isn’t the ideal some just wants to make money like any other job and the pimp is just a bodyguard/manger,\nA lot of it involves a tone of manipulation and dependency and when you add on the ones where safe sex isn’t a priority and the literal hundreds of partners you engage with in such a short time it all comes off as kinda gross.",
">\n\nSex, when a service, is not the same as any other service. There is a difference between driving a person somewhere in a taxi and having your face fucked and ejaculated on by a stranger. As many have stated before and as you can see in 99% of porn is that sex as a service is usually degrading towards women. Just look at the front page of any given porn site. Most of it is not, in any way, esteeming of the women participating. Look at goddamn blowjob videos. The women are not giving a blowjob - they are getting their face fucked. Extra points if they have to gag and be obviously physically uncomfortable and struggling to breathe. Dude it is just not the same as someone operating a forklift or making flower arrangements. Most of it is degrading and the more degrading the more klicks - the more people who frequent porn sites like it. And it's the same with prostitution. Read about what these women have experienced. It is plain awful. Sure if you are talking about a utopia where you can be 100% sure the prostitutes are there on their own terms and if every single customer is a loving, caring, gentle person taking care of the sex workers needs as much as their own - then yes, there would not be anything wrong with it. But that is just not how it is.\nHow hard is it, even in a healthy loving relationship, to always have both partners perfectly satisfied and met their needs sexually?\nSex is as intimate as human interaction can get and buying that from someone is taking all incentive away to treat the other person as good as you would treat a partner who you love and/or actively want to enjoy the time with you.\nAnd that is what disgusts people about people who frequent prostitutes. The possibility of being a person who, as long as they pay for something or feel like they've done their dues, doesn't give a shit about what the person on the other end is experiencing.\nedit: Because of other comments from OP I accused them of debating rather than discussing and suggested if they were seeking moral validation for what they do, which in itself was not part of a discussion really. I deleted that part because it serves no neutral purpose.",
">\n\nWell in this context not special but very very different, in the way that it is way more intimate, there's actually a part of ones body entering the others. There is exchange of bodily fluids. Those services are different from each other the same way as a massage is different to shoving items across a scanner, just times ten. One is naked, one experiences pleasure (or great pain) and one is not using their body to do something, they are having their body be used by someone else. That can leave physical bruises and mental scars because one is extremely vulnerable in the act.",
">\n\nMy view on it is that the act in itself is not wrong for anybody involved, but the character implication is what causes it to be met with disgust by some.\nIf you have money and you pay for sex from somebody who is willing, then it's no problem, but the issue comes when you delve into why they might be paying for sex.\nMany people experience sex in a consensual environment with a person who desires sex with them, and no money is involved. Many would view this as a very normal and important part of life.\nThe question that comes up subconsciously and/or consciously is \"why does this person need to pay for sex?\"\nIt could be that they have undeveloped social skills and this coild be deemed as a negative trait that needs to be worked on.\nAnother reason could be an atypically high sex drive, which could also be perceived as sex addiction.\nThese are not unlikely reasons for a person to pay a sex worker for sex and a judgement could be made before understanding more that they possess These sorts of traits that people simply have the desire to avoid.",
">\n\nThis is the correct answer. \nThe reason people look down on people who hire hookers has nothing to do with sex trafficking, or what really qualifies as consent, or any of the other comments in this thread. I think a good example is your iPhone. It is basically made with slave labor, but nobody really gives a shit. They just happily use their phone. If they actually did give a shit, they wouldn't buy iPhones. Also, prostitution has been around basically since the beginning of time. It has always been a part of human relationships and always will be.\nFor better or worse, the reason people look down on people who hire hookers is that it implies you are deficient in some way. If you were better looking or had better social skills or had more control over your base urges you would not need to hire a hooker. \nPersonally, I look at it like a wheelchair. I dont need a wheelchair and I really hope I never need one, but it is not fair (and downright cruel) for me to look down on someone who does use one. Are they deficient in some way? Yes. They can't walk. Do they deserve admonishment or judgement? No. Not at all.",
">\n\nYou're not paying too have sex with a prostitute. You're paying to use her body as a masturbatory aid.\nProstitution reduces women to being commodities, objects, things. Every other job, you're providing a skill to produce or exchange goods and services. Prostitution, the woman is the thing you're purchasing. The women are the commodities, they're not viewed as humen, they're viewed as consumable goods.",
">\n\nJust like almost every other Job, and any other form of sex work like strippers, onlyfans model , some e girl, girls who post theist traps on social media, so what makes those empowering and not this",
">\n\nStrippers, only fans, e-girls are not empowering. It's gross. When it comes down to it, they're sluts. And they're no better than their fuck-boy counterparts.",
">\n\nOK fair so the difference in worldview is what makes argumen unsound to you !delta",
">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/19jals80 (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nYou just can never know for sure whether the sex worker is being trafficked or not. You can't assume they'd tell you the truth if you asked. They might endanger themselves by telling you the truth. The sex worker wants money, and is willing to have some sexual contact with you in order to get the money. But fundamentally, they're permitting you to do something to their body that they do not want in and of itself. Therefore, their consent is dubious and conditional upon your payment. To me, that's not sufficient consent. I want someone I'm having sex with to genuinely, enthusiastically want to have sex with me for the sole purpose of enjoying sex with me. I don't want to use people as means to ends, and I don't want to be used as a means to anyone else's ends.\nI don't morally disapprove of sex work. I just wouldn't support it because it doesn't provide a good or service that interests me. I want actual human connection, which is something money cannot buy. I do morally disapprove of a system that drives people into sex work to get by or get ahead.",
">\n\n\nYou just can never know for sure whether the sex worker is being trafficked or not. \n\nThis argument can be made for any form of low-skilled labor.\nThere is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that sex work uses slavery more often than say construction work or weaving baskets.\nYour argument applies just as easily to buying a shoe, because it could have been constructed by slaves.",
">\n\nYour whataboutism does nothing to resolve the moral question.",
">\n\n“whataboutism” is the new trendy defence for people who've been shown a reductiō ad absurdum it seems.\nI'm showing that your argument can just as easily be used to argue the absurd, and that therefore it can't hold much water. Unless one were to believe in the absurd, and would believe that there is a problem with buying shoes or about any product.",
">\n\nAgain, none of what you've said addresses the moral dilemma in question. Moral questions can't be hand-waved away with empty rhetorical devices. This is still a question of how our choices impact the lives and well-being of others. The fact that we live in a world run by greed does not alleviate the moral burden of making this decision responsibly.",
">\n\nI don't think there is a solid \" yes \" or \" no \" answer to this question. There are so many ( but if's) that it's hard to give more than just an opinion.\n\n\nSpeaking from a Christian perspective, morally, yeah, it's wrong. Because sex is seen as something that's sacred that should be shared between 2 consenting married adults. \n\n\nBut if a woman isn't being forced in any type of way, shape, or form and she simply enjoys cash & realized opening her legs to buyers can get her lots of cash, that's her business. Not anyone else's.",
">\n\nTrying to justify yourself?",
">\n\nWhat is unjustifiable here?",
">\n\nI recently visited one. Frankly I just sought for intimacy. I asked them to kiss me and just take it slow. Because that’s what I miss in my life: intimacy.\nI noticed a lot of people have an opinion on it. I can never tell my parents nor my friends. You can only blame me to be socially maladjusted. I have tried all things I could in dating beforehand and frankly it didn’t work.\nSo… I think it’s something in my character to seek for a prostitute. I don’t think it should be condemned because everyone seeks what I am seeking. Only difference is some people can find it over Tinder or in their social circles, and I have to pay for it. Sorry, I wish it was different but it isn’t.",
">\n\nInteresting post. Thanks.\nWhat would you see that would make you change your mind?\n\nsex is considered intimate and special to some people \n\nWhat if sex is objectively intimate and special, as opposed to “some people” finding it subjectively intimate and special? Would that change your mind?",
">\n\nI think in context of religion and this kind of view yes but if you lack this, you are Into causal sex ,and support sex work I don't get it"
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"/u/Due-Lie-8710 (OP) has awarded 7 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nThere's a song I like that speaks on this fairly poetically, so I'd like to start by just directly quoting it:\n\nSo when you bled on the bed as you fed those expectations, as a whore and not a human, you embraced with hesitation the very parameters of all you can be. Not a mother, not an aunt, not a sister who's not subdued. Because dignity's not physical, and your flesh means more than you.\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.",
">\n\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.\n\nFirst of all if you aren't trafficked it is just like another job, as for you both being seen as human , make sense hey aren't there to befriend to have sex , you are performing a service, it's like you watching football or a movie, you only see them as footballers ot actors , half of the time they don't care about their personal life, there are some jobs that prevent you from getting any high paying jobs or jobs that involve care , as for the people purchasing it , if you can't purchase it then why should they sell it , you don't actually support sex work, because that would mean accepting the consumer base ad well as the supplier",
">\n\nThat’s a really big if though, sex work isn’t exactly an industry where you will know for sure if the service you’re getting is consensual. individuals who are victims of sexual trafficking, coercion, or just life circumstance aren’t likely to just tell their “customers” if it isn’t consensual. they could endanger themselves or not be aware that they can say something. \nSeeing someone as an object vs seeing them as an individual with a job aren’t the same though? yes we recognize actors and football players by their career choice and how well they are at it, but they’re still people at the end of the day? that’s why they have fanbases, interviews, paparazzi, popularity on social media, movie adaptions of their life exist—people are interested in more than them just doing their job.\nA persons job is no reason to suddenly strip them of their humanity and rights granted them for being such, that kind of mentality is morally skewed and why a lot of people would not support sex work. plus you can’t say it makes sense for sex workers to be see as commodities only and then believe sex work will be consensual. the whole consent part comes from recognizing that this is another person who has their own boundaries and limits beyond just what you want.",
">\n\nokay, that’s a plumber and not a person you’re having sex with. unlike plumbing which is clean cut, sex can include multiple aspects of different kinks and fetishes. You can’t expect a sex worker to be okay with say participating in rape play, anal, scat, and a mirage of other kinks simply because they agreed to sex. Sex is not clean cut, there is more to it. There has to be a boundary somewhere, this is another person body not a pipe.",
">\n\nThat’s like the point? recognizing the boundary and proceeding from there by RESPECTING the boundary because they are another person and not some masturbatory object. What you just said was a consensual interaction. The initial point was that there is no consensual sex without respecting the party that’s giving as a person.",
">\n\nSo... there's a concept of a moral hazard. \nThere's literally no way for an individual to be certain that their prostitute is not being coerced/trafficked. Even if there are some special circumstances where it might be unlikely, certainty is still impossible, and most people frequenting prostitutes are not in those special circumstances.\nSomeone using their services is therefore extremely likely to be comfortable with risking that they are unknowingly raping someone. \nGenerally speaking, people find that disgusting.",
">\n\nIf you eat chocolate (even the stuff with the fair trade sticker) then there's no guarantee that it hasn't come from slave farms which are not uncommon. If you eat chocolate throughout your life then you are almost definitely contributing to slavery. If you visit a prostitute regularly then the chance they're being exploited is anywhere from functioninally 0% to 100%. So why treat the John who might be discerning with scorn and not the chocolate eater who is a much safer bet in having contributed to coerced labour.",
">\n\nIt's worth trying to avoid those situations, but ultimately it's a very false equivalence to hold people responsible for the actions of others, vs. their own personal actions.\nWhen you buy chocolate, you're not actually holding a gun to a slave, someone else is. The right answer to that is to lobby for worker protections for imported goods, and to try to end involuntary servitude within your country as well. \nWhen you have sex with a trafficked person, you personally literally raped them. If you don't have good evidence to know they aren't trafficked, you're personally ok with the possibility you're going to personally rape them. \nBoth might be considered bad. But it's a false equivalence.\nAnd sure... if someone is paying someone for sex when they are personal friends with them, and interact with them outside of prostitution enough to personally know that they aren't being trafficked... and you're sure they aren't lying, scorning them more than at most some light ribbing isn't justified. It's not like \"sugar daddies\" aren't a thing as well. At the very least much less disapprobation would be appropriate.",
">\n\nIn both cases, there is a customer receiving a service provided by a potentially enslaved person. They are morally equivalent. It makes no sense to say “sure I bought the slavery chocolate, but you can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”",
">\n\n\nyou can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”\n\nThe slavers actions are distinct from the consumers' actions for most things. \nThis is an actual important difference when it comes to prostitution. \nIgnoring that fundamental difference doesn't make it go away, and it's entirely reasonable for someone to make that distinction.",
">\n\nThe slaver and consumer are different people who take different actions in the prostitution scenario. The consumer in both scenarios is taking the risk of being immoral. If I force you to be my slave that’s still immoral whether or not I put you to work in my brothel or mine or factory or fishing boat. And if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever, it’s equivalent.",
">\n\n\nAnd if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever , it’s equivalent.\n\nThis is where the false equivalence comes in. \nSomeone making products with slave labor is not renting out a slave to the consumer so that they consumer can force them to perform mining for the consumer. They are enslaving the labor to create a product, and selling the product. Products don't have rights to violate. The only person violating the rights of the slave is the slaver.\nSomeone trafficking a victim is renting out that victim so that the consumer can rape them.",
">\n\nIf the sex is only contractual to you? Why not just \"hook up.\" Why pay? You will never be able to guarantee they are not being trafficked. If they are, they are not going to tell you. I think the idea of money exchanging hands for sex is the why most have a problem. The idea that you are giving a woman money for sex has been historically seen as her being a whore. \nI am not saying she is. I am saying that from the time it first exchanged hands, that is what it was. Men who could not find a woman, paid a woman. Why do you want others to see it differently? Yes, there will be outliers that will enjoy the work. But those are going to be ones that, like the escort, chose it, and charge what they want. Not the typical street hookers on the corner with pimps to pay. \nProve they are not trafficked, they work for themselves, they are clean (of both drugs and diseases - because they are taking care of themselves and being safe), and that they are a sex worker because they enjoy the work or that that chose the work. Then, hey! Pay 'em and get to it!",
">\n\nI think it is morally unhealthy to normalize it. Even though you have to be an adult to smoke weed, we definitely see weed as a normal thing to do in moderation compared to a few decades ago. This is how we would see prostitution if it was normalized. And I think weed has a lot less complications than legalizing prostitution. A LOT!\nSex work online is a lot safer and requires a lot less mental issues to engage in and promote. But even then, I know some sex workers (online type), and they are scarred by the stuff they have seen when it comes to their job. They have told me stories that are extremely disturbing. These are women who just do stuff by themselves. Not working with a porn company and other people.\nAlso, sex has a huge reputation for being violent and demoralizing towards women in general. I'd assume those numbers would be much higher in men looking to pay for sex. You'd have to have extremely strict and tight regulations for this sort of thing, which would take the fun out of it for a lot of people. And even then, there would still be many mistakes that would happen before we find out all the regulations that are needed. And I don't think we could ever make it mentally and physically safe for women.\nNow, do I think it should be decriminalized for prostitutes? Definitely. I don't see them as disgusting. I feel quite bad for them. Most of them were trafficked at a young age. Do I see men wanting to pay for sex as disgusting? Not necessarily. It depends on the person and the situation. However, this isn't a simple issue where if we just \"stop judging people,\" everything will be fine.",
">\n\nDecriminalizing prostitution for both those selling and buying is demonstrably safer for prostitutes. If it is criminal for the buyer but not the seller, the buyer is often highly defensive and paranoid about the seller, specifically the possibility that they may be working with law enforcement. The buyer will often push to do it in a highly isolated setting as well. These things increase violence that sex workers face, and the averages go down in places where it is decriminalized to both buy and sell. If you have a designated work place for it and no one needs to be distrustful and worried about being arrested, that is the safest situation for all involved. \nWe may disagree with buying it for whatever moral reason, but if we choose to criminalize the purchase of it, we are prioritizing punishing behavior we morally disagree with over prioritizing the safety of those involved, which I can't get behind.",
">\n\nBut there are so many more facets to the safety of legalizing it for the buyer other than them being pushy or wanting to do it in a hidden area. If we legalized it, it still wouldn't really help any of the points I made or is even something that is so overwhelmingly an issue compared to the points I made.",
">\n\nSo long as we have to work to live, all jobs are coercive, even sex work. I’m skeptical that there can ever be a consensual exchange within our current economic context.",
">\n\nExactly , I get sex is intimate but if you are willing to view sex work as any other job , you should be willing to treat it as such",
">\n\nSex work has certain occupational hazards that cannot be regulated away. OSHA (in the US) dictates that a person cannot be subject to bodily fluids without proper PPE in the workplace, and often johns just need to pay more to not wear a condom. Imagine a construction site paying workers more to not wear a hard hat. The greater potential for bodily harm is intrinsic to the work, and it will always be unsafe.",
">\n\nTrue but this doesn't really answer my question",
">\n\nMy point is that treating it like any other job is not ethically possible due to hazardous conditions",
">\n\nThis is a bad take.\nI’d wager prostitution doesn’t even rank in the top ten dangerous jobs by capita.",
">\n\nThat really depends. A gas station cashier likely has a higher risk of being killed. But a quick Google shows sex workers are thirty times more likely to get Aids than the general population. They're also at ridiculously high rates of risk to their mental health. Ptsd is common. Also, yes, sitting at a counter in a gas station is technically dangerous. But it is different type of danger compared to someone fucking them in the ass while shoving a sock in their mouth and calling them a dirty whore. When this happens to a prostitute, since she isn't dead, then all good right?! :) Her job isn't dangerous, she's still alive! And they're really not paid much. Average pay for a sex scene in porn for a woman is around $600, for the guy it's like a hundred. For prostitution you're looking at a hundred to two hundred dollars. \nAlso, if you're in the us. Good luck affording health insurance as an independent contractor engaged in sex work.",
">\n\nI’m not exactly impressed with the American system so if you’re criticising Americans health system then fuck yeah more power to you.\nYou raise fantastic points about there being non lethal dangers in sex work that are worth considering and harder to measure.\nThat being said, sit for a while and think about whether you think that sex workers are in a job so dangerous that it deserves its own category and shouldn’t even be allowed. (This is what the commenter I was responding to was claiming)\nI’m comfortable I’d ban lumberjack as a profession long before I considered banning prostitution based on relative level of danger and conditions.\nI don’t have a specific statistic but soldiers at an educated guess would probably be more likely to experience danger and mental issues but the commenter I responded to probably never thought for one second about banning soldiers on that basis.\nIt’s clear bias, being rationalised as something it isn’t.",
">\n\nIt's decriminalised where I live, which means women can arrange anything themselves. So you can have a strip club with a \"hotel\" above it. Basically 100% of the workers are foreign, from places like Ukraine. Russia, Moldova, Romania. Etc. It's a strange aspect which isn't often brought up. But\"legalizing \" almost always results on foreign workers undercutting any local workforce. How can a 26 year old American girl from the burbs compete with an 18 year Thai girl? One is fine doing work at basically the rates of a full time McDonald's employee, while the other isn't. And of course, that breeds the type of people you'd imagine running the business. Even in places like Amsterdam, where there's tons of regulation, you get the same trafficking you see anywhere else.\nSo morally. I've got zero problem. But I've just never seen a model that can actually ensure safety for everyone involved.",
">\n\nWell culture is everything isn't it? Of there wasn't so much sex tourism from places that have prostitution illegal there would probably be less demand wouldn't there? Less demand would make the whole industry safer imo due to the loss of money driving the search for foreign market girls\nLike imagine the whole world has a brothel just down the block. Does that make it more safe just by sheer volume and normality?",
">\n\nFirstly, i'm not religious, i'm sex-positive and the sex lives of strangers rarely concerns me. I don't think paying for these services makes you a \"bad\" person, nor a \"disgusting\" one.. but for me, it would affect your desirability to me as a partner. To me attraction is a big thing, and i'll be honest, I see it as kind of lame. Not morally corrupt but just ...desperate. \nI would want my partner to be someone that women wanted to have sex with, not the man that they had sex with as a purely profitable transaction. Whilst it's consensual, when you involve money or a benefit other than sex, the line slightly blurs, and I find it becomes icky. \nIt's not even that I think my partner should only have had strictly intimate and personable relations... but the question does spring to mind of \"is sex that has been paid for truly consensual? can you guarantee that?\" Even popular Pornstars who previously agreed to do porn and made careers out of it have stories where they later felt disgusted by what they've had to do but were so enamored by the money, they went through with it. Sex workers will ALWAYS sell a positive image to their clients, part of their job is to make you feel desired, but you never truly know the reality. \nAll in all, it can be seen as \"bad\" or \"disgusting\" because monetary rewards affects the lines of purely consensual sex. The same way it can be icky for a boss to have sex with the intern, the same way directors have sex with actresses that want to star in their movies, and the same way rockstars have sex with their fans. Doesn't make 'em rapists, but it's why people won't look at it as respectable.",
">\n\nyou aren’t sex positive if you think paying for sex is desperate.\ndoes paying for alcohol mean you’re desperate for happiness? some people want to have fun so they buy drinks, others find more fun in sex. as long as sex work is consensual and not the result of pimping or some other form of coercion then I don’t see any harm or how it would be desperate.\nthere are tangible benefits to buying sex vs finding it “naturally” that i don’t think you’re considering. \nwith sex workers you’re safer and don’t have to worry about pregnancy, theft, psychotic women, and other risks that come from random hookups with strangers or even casual dating. there’s also the whole “i don’t need to put time and effort into finding and flirting with someone” when it can be on demand. yea making food at home is usually cheaper and better tasting than takeout but sometimes you’re lazy and want a pizza delivered.",
">\n\nI’m generally sex positive to consensual sex between people. However, everything falls on a spectrum and I don’t think you have to have a certain view on every avenue to be as such. Much like you can love your job, your country or your friends but that doesn’t mean you can’t provide any forms of criticism nor must you love EVERY aspect of these things. \nI have no disdain for people who hook up on dating apps, clubs, attend sex parties etc. I will always believe sex workers should have right to practice and do so in a safe environment. I also wouldn’t stop their client base either, it’s not my business, but there are ethical implications and I’ve said my view from the perspective of my partner which naturally i hold to a more personable standard. I wouldn’t want to be with someone who puts their sexual desires above the possible implications involved in sex work. \nI do want to touch on your point that as long as it’s not coerced or forced, it’s okay. The ethical implication behind this is that when you involve money, this is not guaranteed. Not all clients will take the time to research the background and extra people involved behind the scenes. The women with pimps and who are trafficked won’t spill those beans to you. Again, there will always be exceptions to the rule. \nI understand that sex work is convenient to many but my perception is not swayed by the mere idea that paying for sex means you get to avoid having to flirt with women. Much like I can understand why people have no choice to purchase fast fashion and I’ll understand the reasoning but that does not mean I should ignore the child labour and poor conditions that make this possible. \nAll in all, I won’t stop you but I’m going to think it’s kinda lame. You can wear an item of clothing, I’ll defend you to wear that clothing and I won’t make you feel bad for wearing it.. but I may not like it myself.",
">\n\nReading your posts made me think of a bird preening it's feathers to attract a mate. I thought it was just you being obtuse untill you brought fashion into this lol\nYou really are just a pair of eyes arnt you. No complexity attached. \"I saw it in the window so I bought it! I didn't even care that it was 500$ I just wanted it because the other girls were eyeing it down and I just HAD to have it💅\"",
">\n\nI genuinely have no idea what you’re trying to convey. The topic of fashion was merely to represent that there are often complexities and nuance. So yes, I can be sex positive but I don’t necessarily have to agree with all the variances within the to topic of sex. \nI assume I’ve hit a nerve for your style of response.",
">\n\nNot sure about everywhere else but in America being as prostitution is illegal a lot of the situations the workers are in are really sad, depressing and predatory. If you take a look at the book “Pimp” by ice berg slim for example a lot of the industry isn’t the ideal some just wants to make money like any other job and the pimp is just a bodyguard/manger,\nA lot of it involves a tone of manipulation and dependency and when you add on the ones where safe sex isn’t a priority and the literal hundreds of partners you engage with in such a short time it all comes off as kinda gross.",
">\n\nSex, when a service, is not the same as any other service. There is a difference between driving a person somewhere in a taxi and having your face fucked and ejaculated on by a stranger. As many have stated before and as you can see in 99% of porn is that sex as a service is usually degrading towards women. Just look at the front page of any given porn site. Most of it is not, in any way, esteeming of the women participating. Look at goddamn blowjob videos. The women are not giving a blowjob - they are getting their face fucked. Extra points if they have to gag and be obviously physically uncomfortable and struggling to breathe. Dude it is just not the same as someone operating a forklift or making flower arrangements. Most of it is degrading and the more degrading the more klicks - the more people who frequent porn sites like it. And it's the same with prostitution. Read about what these women have experienced. It is plain awful. Sure if you are talking about a utopia where you can be 100% sure the prostitutes are there on their own terms and if every single customer is a loving, caring, gentle person taking care of the sex workers needs as much as their own - then yes, there would not be anything wrong with it. But that is just not how it is.\nHow hard is it, even in a healthy loving relationship, to always have both partners perfectly satisfied and met their needs sexually?\nSex is as intimate as human interaction can get and buying that from someone is taking all incentive away to treat the other person as good as you would treat a partner who you love and/or actively want to enjoy the time with you.\nAnd that is what disgusts people about people who frequent prostitutes. The possibility of being a person who, as long as they pay for something or feel like they've done their dues, doesn't give a shit about what the person on the other end is experiencing.\nedit: Because of other comments from OP I accused them of debating rather than discussing and suggested if they were seeking moral validation for what they do, which in itself was not part of a discussion really. I deleted that part because it serves no neutral purpose.",
">\n\nWell in this context not special but very very different, in the way that it is way more intimate, there's actually a part of ones body entering the others. There is exchange of bodily fluids. Those services are different from each other the same way as a massage is different to shoving items across a scanner, just times ten. One is naked, one experiences pleasure (or great pain) and one is not using their body to do something, they are having their body be used by someone else. That can leave physical bruises and mental scars because one is extremely vulnerable in the act.",
">\n\nMy view on it is that the act in itself is not wrong for anybody involved, but the character implication is what causes it to be met with disgust by some.\nIf you have money and you pay for sex from somebody who is willing, then it's no problem, but the issue comes when you delve into why they might be paying for sex.\nMany people experience sex in a consensual environment with a person who desires sex with them, and no money is involved. Many would view this as a very normal and important part of life.\nThe question that comes up subconsciously and/or consciously is \"why does this person need to pay for sex?\"\nIt could be that they have undeveloped social skills and this coild be deemed as a negative trait that needs to be worked on.\nAnother reason could be an atypically high sex drive, which could also be perceived as sex addiction.\nThese are not unlikely reasons for a person to pay a sex worker for sex and a judgement could be made before understanding more that they possess These sorts of traits that people simply have the desire to avoid.",
">\n\nThis is the correct answer. \nThe reason people look down on people who hire hookers has nothing to do with sex trafficking, or what really qualifies as consent, or any of the other comments in this thread. I think a good example is your iPhone. It is basically made with slave labor, but nobody really gives a shit. They just happily use their phone. If they actually did give a shit, they wouldn't buy iPhones. Also, prostitution has been around basically since the beginning of time. It has always been a part of human relationships and always will be.\nFor better or worse, the reason people look down on people who hire hookers is that it implies you are deficient in some way. If you were better looking or had better social skills or had more control over your base urges you would not need to hire a hooker. \nPersonally, I look at it like a wheelchair. I dont need a wheelchair and I really hope I never need one, but it is not fair (and downright cruel) for me to look down on someone who does use one. Are they deficient in some way? Yes. They can't walk. Do they deserve admonishment or judgement? No. Not at all.",
">\n\nYou're not paying too have sex with a prostitute. You're paying to use her body as a masturbatory aid.\nProstitution reduces women to being commodities, objects, things. Every other job, you're providing a skill to produce or exchange goods and services. Prostitution, the woman is the thing you're purchasing. The women are the commodities, they're not viewed as humen, they're viewed as consumable goods.",
">\n\nJust like almost every other Job, and any other form of sex work like strippers, onlyfans model , some e girl, girls who post theist traps on social media, so what makes those empowering and not this",
">\n\nStrippers, only fans, e-girls are not empowering. It's gross. When it comes down to it, they're sluts. And they're no better than their fuck-boy counterparts.",
">\n\nOK fair so the difference in worldview is what makes argumen unsound to you !delta",
">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/19jals80 (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nYou just can never know for sure whether the sex worker is being trafficked or not. You can't assume they'd tell you the truth if you asked. They might endanger themselves by telling you the truth. The sex worker wants money, and is willing to have some sexual contact with you in order to get the money. But fundamentally, they're permitting you to do something to their body that they do not want in and of itself. Therefore, their consent is dubious and conditional upon your payment. To me, that's not sufficient consent. I want someone I'm having sex with to genuinely, enthusiastically want to have sex with me for the sole purpose of enjoying sex with me. I don't want to use people as means to ends, and I don't want to be used as a means to anyone else's ends.\nI don't morally disapprove of sex work. I just wouldn't support it because it doesn't provide a good or service that interests me. I want actual human connection, which is something money cannot buy. I do morally disapprove of a system that drives people into sex work to get by or get ahead.",
">\n\n\nYou just can never know for sure whether the sex worker is being trafficked or not. \n\nThis argument can be made for any form of low-skilled labor.\nThere is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that sex work uses slavery more often than say construction work or weaving baskets.\nYour argument applies just as easily to buying a shoe, because it could have been constructed by slaves.",
">\n\nYour whataboutism does nothing to resolve the moral question.",
">\n\n“whataboutism” is the new trendy defence for people who've been shown a reductiō ad absurdum it seems.\nI'm showing that your argument can just as easily be used to argue the absurd, and that therefore it can't hold much water. Unless one were to believe in the absurd, and would believe that there is a problem with buying shoes or about any product.",
">\n\nAgain, none of what you've said addresses the moral dilemma in question. Moral questions can't be hand-waved away with empty rhetorical devices. This is still a question of how our choices impact the lives and well-being of others. The fact that we live in a world run by greed does not alleviate the moral burden of making this decision responsibly.",
">\n\nI don't think there is a solid \" yes \" or \" no \" answer to this question. There are so many ( but if's) that it's hard to give more than just an opinion.\n\n\nSpeaking from a Christian perspective, morally, yeah, it's wrong. Because sex is seen as something that's sacred that should be shared between 2 consenting married adults. \n\n\nBut if a woman isn't being forced in any type of way, shape, or form and she simply enjoys cash & realized opening her legs to buyers can get her lots of cash, that's her business. Not anyone else's.",
">\n\nTrying to justify yourself?",
">\n\nWhat is unjustifiable here?",
">\n\nI recently visited one. Frankly I just sought for intimacy. I asked them to kiss me and just take it slow. Because that’s what I miss in my life: intimacy.\nI noticed a lot of people have an opinion on it. I can never tell my parents nor my friends. You can only blame me to be socially maladjusted. I have tried all things I could in dating beforehand and frankly it didn’t work.\nSo… I think it’s something in my character to seek for a prostitute. I don’t think it should be condemned because everyone seeks what I am seeking. Only difference is some people can find it over Tinder or in their social circles, and I have to pay for it. Sorry, I wish it was different but it isn’t.",
">\n\nInteresting post. Thanks.\nWhat would you see that would make you change your mind?\n\nsex is considered intimate and special to some people \n\nWhat if sex is objectively intimate and special, as opposed to “some people” finding it subjectively intimate and special? Would that change your mind?",
">\n\nI think in context of religion and this kind of view yes but if you lack this, you are Into causal sex ,and support sex work I don't get it",
">\n\nThanks for the response.\nLet’s back up…I think we are missing each other. The sub is called r/changemyview, so I first want to understand your view and then have you tell me what would change it. Alternatively, if nothing would change it, I would like to know that, too.\nI think your argument is the following:\nP1: Moral oppobrium is an appropriate response only to moral failures.\nP2: There is no moral aspect to a consensual sex act.\nC1: Therefore, moral oppobrium is not appropriate for (uncoerced) sex workers and their patrons.\nDo I have that right? If not, please correct me."
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What about how awfully the punters treat the women who work in prostitution, as this article (and many others) reveals? Would you not look down on these men because of this?
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"/u/Due-Lie-8710 (OP) has awarded 7 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nThere's a song I like that speaks on this fairly poetically, so I'd like to start by just directly quoting it:\n\nSo when you bled on the bed as you fed those expectations, as a whore and not a human, you embraced with hesitation the very parameters of all you can be. Not a mother, not an aunt, not a sister who's not subdued. Because dignity's not physical, and your flesh means more than you.\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.",
">\n\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.\n\nFirst of all if you aren't trafficked it is just like another job, as for you both being seen as human , make sense hey aren't there to befriend to have sex , you are performing a service, it's like you watching football or a movie, you only see them as footballers ot actors , half of the time they don't care about their personal life, there are some jobs that prevent you from getting any high paying jobs or jobs that involve care , as for the people purchasing it , if you can't purchase it then why should they sell it , you don't actually support sex work, because that would mean accepting the consumer base ad well as the supplier",
">\n\nThat’s a really big if though, sex work isn’t exactly an industry where you will know for sure if the service you’re getting is consensual. individuals who are victims of sexual trafficking, coercion, or just life circumstance aren’t likely to just tell their “customers” if it isn’t consensual. they could endanger themselves or not be aware that they can say something. \nSeeing someone as an object vs seeing them as an individual with a job aren’t the same though? yes we recognize actors and football players by their career choice and how well they are at it, but they’re still people at the end of the day? that’s why they have fanbases, interviews, paparazzi, popularity on social media, movie adaptions of their life exist—people are interested in more than them just doing their job.\nA persons job is no reason to suddenly strip them of their humanity and rights granted them for being such, that kind of mentality is morally skewed and why a lot of people would not support sex work. plus you can’t say it makes sense for sex workers to be see as commodities only and then believe sex work will be consensual. the whole consent part comes from recognizing that this is another person who has their own boundaries and limits beyond just what you want.",
">\n\nokay, that’s a plumber and not a person you’re having sex with. unlike plumbing which is clean cut, sex can include multiple aspects of different kinks and fetishes. You can’t expect a sex worker to be okay with say participating in rape play, anal, scat, and a mirage of other kinks simply because they agreed to sex. Sex is not clean cut, there is more to it. There has to be a boundary somewhere, this is another person body not a pipe.",
">\n\nThat’s like the point? recognizing the boundary and proceeding from there by RESPECTING the boundary because they are another person and not some masturbatory object. What you just said was a consensual interaction. The initial point was that there is no consensual sex without respecting the party that’s giving as a person.",
">\n\nSo... there's a concept of a moral hazard. \nThere's literally no way for an individual to be certain that their prostitute is not being coerced/trafficked. Even if there are some special circumstances where it might be unlikely, certainty is still impossible, and most people frequenting prostitutes are not in those special circumstances.\nSomeone using their services is therefore extremely likely to be comfortable with risking that they are unknowingly raping someone. \nGenerally speaking, people find that disgusting.",
">\n\nIf you eat chocolate (even the stuff with the fair trade sticker) then there's no guarantee that it hasn't come from slave farms which are not uncommon. If you eat chocolate throughout your life then you are almost definitely contributing to slavery. If you visit a prostitute regularly then the chance they're being exploited is anywhere from functioninally 0% to 100%. So why treat the John who might be discerning with scorn and not the chocolate eater who is a much safer bet in having contributed to coerced labour.",
">\n\nIt's worth trying to avoid those situations, but ultimately it's a very false equivalence to hold people responsible for the actions of others, vs. their own personal actions.\nWhen you buy chocolate, you're not actually holding a gun to a slave, someone else is. The right answer to that is to lobby for worker protections for imported goods, and to try to end involuntary servitude within your country as well. \nWhen you have sex with a trafficked person, you personally literally raped them. If you don't have good evidence to know they aren't trafficked, you're personally ok with the possibility you're going to personally rape them. \nBoth might be considered bad. But it's a false equivalence.\nAnd sure... if someone is paying someone for sex when they are personal friends with them, and interact with them outside of prostitution enough to personally know that they aren't being trafficked... and you're sure they aren't lying, scorning them more than at most some light ribbing isn't justified. It's not like \"sugar daddies\" aren't a thing as well. At the very least much less disapprobation would be appropriate.",
">\n\nIn both cases, there is a customer receiving a service provided by a potentially enslaved person. They are morally equivalent. It makes no sense to say “sure I bought the slavery chocolate, but you can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”",
">\n\n\nyou can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”\n\nThe slavers actions are distinct from the consumers' actions for most things. \nThis is an actual important difference when it comes to prostitution. \nIgnoring that fundamental difference doesn't make it go away, and it's entirely reasonable for someone to make that distinction.",
">\n\nThe slaver and consumer are different people who take different actions in the prostitution scenario. The consumer in both scenarios is taking the risk of being immoral. If I force you to be my slave that’s still immoral whether or not I put you to work in my brothel or mine or factory or fishing boat. And if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever, it’s equivalent.",
">\n\n\nAnd if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever , it’s equivalent.\n\nThis is where the false equivalence comes in. \nSomeone making products with slave labor is not renting out a slave to the consumer so that they consumer can force them to perform mining for the consumer. They are enslaving the labor to create a product, and selling the product. Products don't have rights to violate. The only person violating the rights of the slave is the slaver.\nSomeone trafficking a victim is renting out that victim so that the consumer can rape them.",
">\n\nIf the sex is only contractual to you? Why not just \"hook up.\" Why pay? You will never be able to guarantee they are not being trafficked. If they are, they are not going to tell you. I think the idea of money exchanging hands for sex is the why most have a problem. The idea that you are giving a woman money for sex has been historically seen as her being a whore. \nI am not saying she is. I am saying that from the time it first exchanged hands, that is what it was. Men who could not find a woman, paid a woman. Why do you want others to see it differently? Yes, there will be outliers that will enjoy the work. But those are going to be ones that, like the escort, chose it, and charge what they want. Not the typical street hookers on the corner with pimps to pay. \nProve they are not trafficked, they work for themselves, they are clean (of both drugs and diseases - because they are taking care of themselves and being safe), and that they are a sex worker because they enjoy the work or that that chose the work. Then, hey! Pay 'em and get to it!",
">\n\nI think it is morally unhealthy to normalize it. Even though you have to be an adult to smoke weed, we definitely see weed as a normal thing to do in moderation compared to a few decades ago. This is how we would see prostitution if it was normalized. And I think weed has a lot less complications than legalizing prostitution. A LOT!\nSex work online is a lot safer and requires a lot less mental issues to engage in and promote. But even then, I know some sex workers (online type), and they are scarred by the stuff they have seen when it comes to their job. They have told me stories that are extremely disturbing. These are women who just do stuff by themselves. Not working with a porn company and other people.\nAlso, sex has a huge reputation for being violent and demoralizing towards women in general. I'd assume those numbers would be much higher in men looking to pay for sex. You'd have to have extremely strict and tight regulations for this sort of thing, which would take the fun out of it for a lot of people. And even then, there would still be many mistakes that would happen before we find out all the regulations that are needed. And I don't think we could ever make it mentally and physically safe for women.\nNow, do I think it should be decriminalized for prostitutes? Definitely. I don't see them as disgusting. I feel quite bad for them. Most of them were trafficked at a young age. Do I see men wanting to pay for sex as disgusting? Not necessarily. It depends on the person and the situation. However, this isn't a simple issue where if we just \"stop judging people,\" everything will be fine.",
">\n\nDecriminalizing prostitution for both those selling and buying is demonstrably safer for prostitutes. If it is criminal for the buyer but not the seller, the buyer is often highly defensive and paranoid about the seller, specifically the possibility that they may be working with law enforcement. The buyer will often push to do it in a highly isolated setting as well. These things increase violence that sex workers face, and the averages go down in places where it is decriminalized to both buy and sell. If you have a designated work place for it and no one needs to be distrustful and worried about being arrested, that is the safest situation for all involved. \nWe may disagree with buying it for whatever moral reason, but if we choose to criminalize the purchase of it, we are prioritizing punishing behavior we morally disagree with over prioritizing the safety of those involved, which I can't get behind.",
">\n\nBut there are so many more facets to the safety of legalizing it for the buyer other than them being pushy or wanting to do it in a hidden area. If we legalized it, it still wouldn't really help any of the points I made or is even something that is so overwhelmingly an issue compared to the points I made.",
">\n\nSo long as we have to work to live, all jobs are coercive, even sex work. I’m skeptical that there can ever be a consensual exchange within our current economic context.",
">\n\nExactly , I get sex is intimate but if you are willing to view sex work as any other job , you should be willing to treat it as such",
">\n\nSex work has certain occupational hazards that cannot be regulated away. OSHA (in the US) dictates that a person cannot be subject to bodily fluids without proper PPE in the workplace, and often johns just need to pay more to not wear a condom. Imagine a construction site paying workers more to not wear a hard hat. The greater potential for bodily harm is intrinsic to the work, and it will always be unsafe.",
">\n\nTrue but this doesn't really answer my question",
">\n\nMy point is that treating it like any other job is not ethically possible due to hazardous conditions",
">\n\nThis is a bad take.\nI’d wager prostitution doesn’t even rank in the top ten dangerous jobs by capita.",
">\n\nThat really depends. A gas station cashier likely has a higher risk of being killed. But a quick Google shows sex workers are thirty times more likely to get Aids than the general population. They're also at ridiculously high rates of risk to their mental health. Ptsd is common. Also, yes, sitting at a counter in a gas station is technically dangerous. But it is different type of danger compared to someone fucking them in the ass while shoving a sock in their mouth and calling them a dirty whore. When this happens to a prostitute, since she isn't dead, then all good right?! :) Her job isn't dangerous, she's still alive! And they're really not paid much. Average pay for a sex scene in porn for a woman is around $600, for the guy it's like a hundred. For prostitution you're looking at a hundred to two hundred dollars. \nAlso, if you're in the us. Good luck affording health insurance as an independent contractor engaged in sex work.",
">\n\nI’m not exactly impressed with the American system so if you’re criticising Americans health system then fuck yeah more power to you.\nYou raise fantastic points about there being non lethal dangers in sex work that are worth considering and harder to measure.\nThat being said, sit for a while and think about whether you think that sex workers are in a job so dangerous that it deserves its own category and shouldn’t even be allowed. (This is what the commenter I was responding to was claiming)\nI’m comfortable I’d ban lumberjack as a profession long before I considered banning prostitution based on relative level of danger and conditions.\nI don’t have a specific statistic but soldiers at an educated guess would probably be more likely to experience danger and mental issues but the commenter I responded to probably never thought for one second about banning soldiers on that basis.\nIt’s clear bias, being rationalised as something it isn’t.",
">\n\nIt's decriminalised where I live, which means women can arrange anything themselves. So you can have a strip club with a \"hotel\" above it. Basically 100% of the workers are foreign, from places like Ukraine. Russia, Moldova, Romania. Etc. It's a strange aspect which isn't often brought up. But\"legalizing \" almost always results on foreign workers undercutting any local workforce. How can a 26 year old American girl from the burbs compete with an 18 year Thai girl? One is fine doing work at basically the rates of a full time McDonald's employee, while the other isn't. And of course, that breeds the type of people you'd imagine running the business. Even in places like Amsterdam, where there's tons of regulation, you get the same trafficking you see anywhere else.\nSo morally. I've got zero problem. But I've just never seen a model that can actually ensure safety for everyone involved.",
">\n\nWell culture is everything isn't it? Of there wasn't so much sex tourism from places that have prostitution illegal there would probably be less demand wouldn't there? Less demand would make the whole industry safer imo due to the loss of money driving the search for foreign market girls\nLike imagine the whole world has a brothel just down the block. Does that make it more safe just by sheer volume and normality?",
">\n\nFirstly, i'm not religious, i'm sex-positive and the sex lives of strangers rarely concerns me. I don't think paying for these services makes you a \"bad\" person, nor a \"disgusting\" one.. but for me, it would affect your desirability to me as a partner. To me attraction is a big thing, and i'll be honest, I see it as kind of lame. Not morally corrupt but just ...desperate. \nI would want my partner to be someone that women wanted to have sex with, not the man that they had sex with as a purely profitable transaction. Whilst it's consensual, when you involve money or a benefit other than sex, the line slightly blurs, and I find it becomes icky. \nIt's not even that I think my partner should only have had strictly intimate and personable relations... but the question does spring to mind of \"is sex that has been paid for truly consensual? can you guarantee that?\" Even popular Pornstars who previously agreed to do porn and made careers out of it have stories where they later felt disgusted by what they've had to do but were so enamored by the money, they went through with it. Sex workers will ALWAYS sell a positive image to their clients, part of their job is to make you feel desired, but you never truly know the reality. \nAll in all, it can be seen as \"bad\" or \"disgusting\" because monetary rewards affects the lines of purely consensual sex. The same way it can be icky for a boss to have sex with the intern, the same way directors have sex with actresses that want to star in their movies, and the same way rockstars have sex with their fans. Doesn't make 'em rapists, but it's why people won't look at it as respectable.",
">\n\nyou aren’t sex positive if you think paying for sex is desperate.\ndoes paying for alcohol mean you’re desperate for happiness? some people want to have fun so they buy drinks, others find more fun in sex. as long as sex work is consensual and not the result of pimping or some other form of coercion then I don’t see any harm or how it would be desperate.\nthere are tangible benefits to buying sex vs finding it “naturally” that i don’t think you’re considering. \nwith sex workers you’re safer and don’t have to worry about pregnancy, theft, psychotic women, and other risks that come from random hookups with strangers or even casual dating. there’s also the whole “i don’t need to put time and effort into finding and flirting with someone” when it can be on demand. yea making food at home is usually cheaper and better tasting than takeout but sometimes you’re lazy and want a pizza delivered.",
">\n\nI’m generally sex positive to consensual sex between people. However, everything falls on a spectrum and I don’t think you have to have a certain view on every avenue to be as such. Much like you can love your job, your country or your friends but that doesn’t mean you can’t provide any forms of criticism nor must you love EVERY aspect of these things. \nI have no disdain for people who hook up on dating apps, clubs, attend sex parties etc. I will always believe sex workers should have right to practice and do so in a safe environment. I also wouldn’t stop their client base either, it’s not my business, but there are ethical implications and I’ve said my view from the perspective of my partner which naturally i hold to a more personable standard. I wouldn’t want to be with someone who puts their sexual desires above the possible implications involved in sex work. \nI do want to touch on your point that as long as it’s not coerced or forced, it’s okay. The ethical implication behind this is that when you involve money, this is not guaranteed. Not all clients will take the time to research the background and extra people involved behind the scenes. The women with pimps and who are trafficked won’t spill those beans to you. Again, there will always be exceptions to the rule. \nI understand that sex work is convenient to many but my perception is not swayed by the mere idea that paying for sex means you get to avoid having to flirt with women. Much like I can understand why people have no choice to purchase fast fashion and I’ll understand the reasoning but that does not mean I should ignore the child labour and poor conditions that make this possible. \nAll in all, I won’t stop you but I’m going to think it’s kinda lame. You can wear an item of clothing, I’ll defend you to wear that clothing and I won’t make you feel bad for wearing it.. but I may not like it myself.",
">\n\nReading your posts made me think of a bird preening it's feathers to attract a mate. I thought it was just you being obtuse untill you brought fashion into this lol\nYou really are just a pair of eyes arnt you. No complexity attached. \"I saw it in the window so I bought it! I didn't even care that it was 500$ I just wanted it because the other girls were eyeing it down and I just HAD to have it💅\"",
">\n\nI genuinely have no idea what you’re trying to convey. The topic of fashion was merely to represent that there are often complexities and nuance. So yes, I can be sex positive but I don’t necessarily have to agree with all the variances within the to topic of sex. \nI assume I’ve hit a nerve for your style of response.",
">\n\nNot sure about everywhere else but in America being as prostitution is illegal a lot of the situations the workers are in are really sad, depressing and predatory. If you take a look at the book “Pimp” by ice berg slim for example a lot of the industry isn’t the ideal some just wants to make money like any other job and the pimp is just a bodyguard/manger,\nA lot of it involves a tone of manipulation and dependency and when you add on the ones where safe sex isn’t a priority and the literal hundreds of partners you engage with in such a short time it all comes off as kinda gross.",
">\n\nSex, when a service, is not the same as any other service. There is a difference between driving a person somewhere in a taxi and having your face fucked and ejaculated on by a stranger. As many have stated before and as you can see in 99% of porn is that sex as a service is usually degrading towards women. Just look at the front page of any given porn site. Most of it is not, in any way, esteeming of the women participating. Look at goddamn blowjob videos. The women are not giving a blowjob - they are getting their face fucked. Extra points if they have to gag and be obviously physically uncomfortable and struggling to breathe. Dude it is just not the same as someone operating a forklift or making flower arrangements. Most of it is degrading and the more degrading the more klicks - the more people who frequent porn sites like it. And it's the same with prostitution. Read about what these women have experienced. It is plain awful. Sure if you are talking about a utopia where you can be 100% sure the prostitutes are there on their own terms and if every single customer is a loving, caring, gentle person taking care of the sex workers needs as much as their own - then yes, there would not be anything wrong with it. But that is just not how it is.\nHow hard is it, even in a healthy loving relationship, to always have both partners perfectly satisfied and met their needs sexually?\nSex is as intimate as human interaction can get and buying that from someone is taking all incentive away to treat the other person as good as you would treat a partner who you love and/or actively want to enjoy the time with you.\nAnd that is what disgusts people about people who frequent prostitutes. The possibility of being a person who, as long as they pay for something or feel like they've done their dues, doesn't give a shit about what the person on the other end is experiencing.\nedit: Because of other comments from OP I accused them of debating rather than discussing and suggested if they were seeking moral validation for what they do, which in itself was not part of a discussion really. I deleted that part because it serves no neutral purpose.",
">\n\nWell in this context not special but very very different, in the way that it is way more intimate, there's actually a part of ones body entering the others. There is exchange of bodily fluids. Those services are different from each other the same way as a massage is different to shoving items across a scanner, just times ten. One is naked, one experiences pleasure (or great pain) and one is not using their body to do something, they are having their body be used by someone else. That can leave physical bruises and mental scars because one is extremely vulnerable in the act.",
">\n\nMy view on it is that the act in itself is not wrong for anybody involved, but the character implication is what causes it to be met with disgust by some.\nIf you have money and you pay for sex from somebody who is willing, then it's no problem, but the issue comes when you delve into why they might be paying for sex.\nMany people experience sex in a consensual environment with a person who desires sex with them, and no money is involved. Many would view this as a very normal and important part of life.\nThe question that comes up subconsciously and/or consciously is \"why does this person need to pay for sex?\"\nIt could be that they have undeveloped social skills and this coild be deemed as a negative trait that needs to be worked on.\nAnother reason could be an atypically high sex drive, which could also be perceived as sex addiction.\nThese are not unlikely reasons for a person to pay a sex worker for sex and a judgement could be made before understanding more that they possess These sorts of traits that people simply have the desire to avoid.",
">\n\nThis is the correct answer. \nThe reason people look down on people who hire hookers has nothing to do with sex trafficking, or what really qualifies as consent, or any of the other comments in this thread. I think a good example is your iPhone. It is basically made with slave labor, but nobody really gives a shit. They just happily use their phone. If they actually did give a shit, they wouldn't buy iPhones. Also, prostitution has been around basically since the beginning of time. It has always been a part of human relationships and always will be.\nFor better or worse, the reason people look down on people who hire hookers is that it implies you are deficient in some way. If you were better looking or had better social skills or had more control over your base urges you would not need to hire a hooker. \nPersonally, I look at it like a wheelchair. I dont need a wheelchair and I really hope I never need one, but it is not fair (and downright cruel) for me to look down on someone who does use one. Are they deficient in some way? Yes. They can't walk. Do they deserve admonishment or judgement? No. Not at all.",
">\n\nYou're not paying too have sex with a prostitute. You're paying to use her body as a masturbatory aid.\nProstitution reduces women to being commodities, objects, things. Every other job, you're providing a skill to produce or exchange goods and services. Prostitution, the woman is the thing you're purchasing. The women are the commodities, they're not viewed as humen, they're viewed as consumable goods.",
">\n\nJust like almost every other Job, and any other form of sex work like strippers, onlyfans model , some e girl, girls who post theist traps on social media, so what makes those empowering and not this",
">\n\nStrippers, only fans, e-girls are not empowering. It's gross. When it comes down to it, they're sluts. And they're no better than their fuck-boy counterparts.",
">\n\nOK fair so the difference in worldview is what makes argumen unsound to you !delta",
">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/19jals80 (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nYou just can never know for sure whether the sex worker is being trafficked or not. You can't assume they'd tell you the truth if you asked. They might endanger themselves by telling you the truth. The sex worker wants money, and is willing to have some sexual contact with you in order to get the money. But fundamentally, they're permitting you to do something to their body that they do not want in and of itself. Therefore, their consent is dubious and conditional upon your payment. To me, that's not sufficient consent. I want someone I'm having sex with to genuinely, enthusiastically want to have sex with me for the sole purpose of enjoying sex with me. I don't want to use people as means to ends, and I don't want to be used as a means to anyone else's ends.\nI don't morally disapprove of sex work. I just wouldn't support it because it doesn't provide a good or service that interests me. I want actual human connection, which is something money cannot buy. I do morally disapprove of a system that drives people into sex work to get by or get ahead.",
">\n\n\nYou just can never know for sure whether the sex worker is being trafficked or not. \n\nThis argument can be made for any form of low-skilled labor.\nThere is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that sex work uses slavery more often than say construction work or weaving baskets.\nYour argument applies just as easily to buying a shoe, because it could have been constructed by slaves.",
">\n\nYour whataboutism does nothing to resolve the moral question.",
">\n\n“whataboutism” is the new trendy defence for people who've been shown a reductiō ad absurdum it seems.\nI'm showing that your argument can just as easily be used to argue the absurd, and that therefore it can't hold much water. Unless one were to believe in the absurd, and would believe that there is a problem with buying shoes or about any product.",
">\n\nAgain, none of what you've said addresses the moral dilemma in question. Moral questions can't be hand-waved away with empty rhetorical devices. This is still a question of how our choices impact the lives and well-being of others. The fact that we live in a world run by greed does not alleviate the moral burden of making this decision responsibly.",
">\n\nI don't think there is a solid \" yes \" or \" no \" answer to this question. There are so many ( but if's) that it's hard to give more than just an opinion.\n\n\nSpeaking from a Christian perspective, morally, yeah, it's wrong. Because sex is seen as something that's sacred that should be shared between 2 consenting married adults. \n\n\nBut if a woman isn't being forced in any type of way, shape, or form and she simply enjoys cash & realized opening her legs to buyers can get her lots of cash, that's her business. Not anyone else's.",
">\n\nTrying to justify yourself?",
">\n\nWhat is unjustifiable here?",
">\n\nI recently visited one. Frankly I just sought for intimacy. I asked them to kiss me and just take it slow. Because that’s what I miss in my life: intimacy.\nI noticed a lot of people have an opinion on it. I can never tell my parents nor my friends. You can only blame me to be socially maladjusted. I have tried all things I could in dating beforehand and frankly it didn’t work.\nSo… I think it’s something in my character to seek for a prostitute. I don’t think it should be condemned because everyone seeks what I am seeking. Only difference is some people can find it over Tinder or in their social circles, and I have to pay for it. Sorry, I wish it was different but it isn’t.",
">\n\nInteresting post. Thanks.\nWhat would you see that would make you change your mind?\n\nsex is considered intimate and special to some people \n\nWhat if sex is objectively intimate and special, as opposed to “some people” finding it subjectively intimate and special? Would that change your mind?",
">\n\nI think in context of religion and this kind of view yes but if you lack this, you are Into causal sex ,and support sex work I don't get it",
">\n\nThanks for the response.\nLet’s back up…I think we are missing each other. The sub is called r/changemyview, so I first want to understand your view and then have you tell me what would change it. Alternatively, if nothing would change it, I would like to know that, too.\nI think your argument is the following:\nP1: Moral oppobrium is an appropriate response only to moral failures.\nP2: There is no moral aspect to a consensual sex act.\nC1: Therefore, moral oppobrium is not appropriate for (uncoerced) sex workers and their patrons.\nDo I have that right? If not, please correct me.",
">\n\nYou do"
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I would but not all men who hire sex workers do this , also this is not a specifically sex worker problem , it can happen even in the confines of a relationship , do you also look down on men who enter relationships with women or just the men who are abusive because it also applies in the cases of sex work porn is part of sex work
Some of the other issues come with the job which like it or not the one who aren't trafficked consent to it , like the idea that they don't get hired for other jobs , then things like racism , sexual harassment violence , addiction being a single mom has nothing to do with sex work
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"/u/Due-Lie-8710 (OP) has awarded 7 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nThere's a song I like that speaks on this fairly poetically, so I'd like to start by just directly quoting it:\n\nSo when you bled on the bed as you fed those expectations, as a whore and not a human, you embraced with hesitation the very parameters of all you can be. Not a mother, not an aunt, not a sister who's not subdued. Because dignity's not physical, and your flesh means more than you.\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.",
">\n\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.\n\nFirst of all if you aren't trafficked it is just like another job, as for you both being seen as human , make sense hey aren't there to befriend to have sex , you are performing a service, it's like you watching football or a movie, you only see them as footballers ot actors , half of the time they don't care about their personal life, there are some jobs that prevent you from getting any high paying jobs or jobs that involve care , as for the people purchasing it , if you can't purchase it then why should they sell it , you don't actually support sex work, because that would mean accepting the consumer base ad well as the supplier",
">\n\nThat’s a really big if though, sex work isn’t exactly an industry where you will know for sure if the service you’re getting is consensual. individuals who are victims of sexual trafficking, coercion, or just life circumstance aren’t likely to just tell their “customers” if it isn’t consensual. they could endanger themselves or not be aware that they can say something. \nSeeing someone as an object vs seeing them as an individual with a job aren’t the same though? yes we recognize actors and football players by their career choice and how well they are at it, but they’re still people at the end of the day? that’s why they have fanbases, interviews, paparazzi, popularity on social media, movie adaptions of their life exist—people are interested in more than them just doing their job.\nA persons job is no reason to suddenly strip them of their humanity and rights granted them for being such, that kind of mentality is morally skewed and why a lot of people would not support sex work. plus you can’t say it makes sense for sex workers to be see as commodities only and then believe sex work will be consensual. the whole consent part comes from recognizing that this is another person who has their own boundaries and limits beyond just what you want.",
">\n\nokay, that’s a plumber and not a person you’re having sex with. unlike plumbing which is clean cut, sex can include multiple aspects of different kinks and fetishes. You can’t expect a sex worker to be okay with say participating in rape play, anal, scat, and a mirage of other kinks simply because they agreed to sex. Sex is not clean cut, there is more to it. There has to be a boundary somewhere, this is another person body not a pipe.",
">\n\nThat’s like the point? recognizing the boundary and proceeding from there by RESPECTING the boundary because they are another person and not some masturbatory object. What you just said was a consensual interaction. The initial point was that there is no consensual sex without respecting the party that’s giving as a person.",
">\n\nSo... there's a concept of a moral hazard. \nThere's literally no way for an individual to be certain that their prostitute is not being coerced/trafficked. Even if there are some special circumstances where it might be unlikely, certainty is still impossible, and most people frequenting prostitutes are not in those special circumstances.\nSomeone using their services is therefore extremely likely to be comfortable with risking that they are unknowingly raping someone. \nGenerally speaking, people find that disgusting.",
">\n\nIf you eat chocolate (even the stuff with the fair trade sticker) then there's no guarantee that it hasn't come from slave farms which are not uncommon. If you eat chocolate throughout your life then you are almost definitely contributing to slavery. If you visit a prostitute regularly then the chance they're being exploited is anywhere from functioninally 0% to 100%. So why treat the John who might be discerning with scorn and not the chocolate eater who is a much safer bet in having contributed to coerced labour.",
">\n\nIt's worth trying to avoid those situations, but ultimately it's a very false equivalence to hold people responsible for the actions of others, vs. their own personal actions.\nWhen you buy chocolate, you're not actually holding a gun to a slave, someone else is. The right answer to that is to lobby for worker protections for imported goods, and to try to end involuntary servitude within your country as well. \nWhen you have sex with a trafficked person, you personally literally raped them. If you don't have good evidence to know they aren't trafficked, you're personally ok with the possibility you're going to personally rape them. \nBoth might be considered bad. But it's a false equivalence.\nAnd sure... if someone is paying someone for sex when they are personal friends with them, and interact with them outside of prostitution enough to personally know that they aren't being trafficked... and you're sure they aren't lying, scorning them more than at most some light ribbing isn't justified. It's not like \"sugar daddies\" aren't a thing as well. At the very least much less disapprobation would be appropriate.",
">\n\nIn both cases, there is a customer receiving a service provided by a potentially enslaved person. They are morally equivalent. It makes no sense to say “sure I bought the slavery chocolate, but you can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”",
">\n\n\nyou can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”\n\nThe slavers actions are distinct from the consumers' actions for most things. \nThis is an actual important difference when it comes to prostitution. \nIgnoring that fundamental difference doesn't make it go away, and it's entirely reasonable for someone to make that distinction.",
">\n\nThe slaver and consumer are different people who take different actions in the prostitution scenario. The consumer in both scenarios is taking the risk of being immoral. If I force you to be my slave that’s still immoral whether or not I put you to work in my brothel or mine or factory or fishing boat. And if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever, it’s equivalent.",
">\n\n\nAnd if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever , it’s equivalent.\n\nThis is where the false equivalence comes in. \nSomeone making products with slave labor is not renting out a slave to the consumer so that they consumer can force them to perform mining for the consumer. They are enslaving the labor to create a product, and selling the product. Products don't have rights to violate. The only person violating the rights of the slave is the slaver.\nSomeone trafficking a victim is renting out that victim so that the consumer can rape them.",
">\n\nIf the sex is only contractual to you? Why not just \"hook up.\" Why pay? You will never be able to guarantee they are not being trafficked. If they are, they are not going to tell you. I think the idea of money exchanging hands for sex is the why most have a problem. The idea that you are giving a woman money for sex has been historically seen as her being a whore. \nI am not saying she is. I am saying that from the time it first exchanged hands, that is what it was. Men who could not find a woman, paid a woman. Why do you want others to see it differently? Yes, there will be outliers that will enjoy the work. But those are going to be ones that, like the escort, chose it, and charge what they want. Not the typical street hookers on the corner with pimps to pay. \nProve they are not trafficked, they work for themselves, they are clean (of both drugs and diseases - because they are taking care of themselves and being safe), and that they are a sex worker because they enjoy the work or that that chose the work. Then, hey! Pay 'em and get to it!",
">\n\nI think it is morally unhealthy to normalize it. Even though you have to be an adult to smoke weed, we definitely see weed as a normal thing to do in moderation compared to a few decades ago. This is how we would see prostitution if it was normalized. And I think weed has a lot less complications than legalizing prostitution. A LOT!\nSex work online is a lot safer and requires a lot less mental issues to engage in and promote. But even then, I know some sex workers (online type), and they are scarred by the stuff they have seen when it comes to their job. They have told me stories that are extremely disturbing. These are women who just do stuff by themselves. Not working with a porn company and other people.\nAlso, sex has a huge reputation for being violent and demoralizing towards women in general. I'd assume those numbers would be much higher in men looking to pay for sex. You'd have to have extremely strict and tight regulations for this sort of thing, which would take the fun out of it for a lot of people. And even then, there would still be many mistakes that would happen before we find out all the regulations that are needed. And I don't think we could ever make it mentally and physically safe for women.\nNow, do I think it should be decriminalized for prostitutes? Definitely. I don't see them as disgusting. I feel quite bad for them. Most of them were trafficked at a young age. Do I see men wanting to pay for sex as disgusting? Not necessarily. It depends on the person and the situation. However, this isn't a simple issue where if we just \"stop judging people,\" everything will be fine.",
">\n\nDecriminalizing prostitution for both those selling and buying is demonstrably safer for prostitutes. If it is criminal for the buyer but not the seller, the buyer is often highly defensive and paranoid about the seller, specifically the possibility that they may be working with law enforcement. The buyer will often push to do it in a highly isolated setting as well. These things increase violence that sex workers face, and the averages go down in places where it is decriminalized to both buy and sell. If you have a designated work place for it and no one needs to be distrustful and worried about being arrested, that is the safest situation for all involved. \nWe may disagree with buying it for whatever moral reason, but if we choose to criminalize the purchase of it, we are prioritizing punishing behavior we morally disagree with over prioritizing the safety of those involved, which I can't get behind.",
">\n\nBut there are so many more facets to the safety of legalizing it for the buyer other than them being pushy or wanting to do it in a hidden area. If we legalized it, it still wouldn't really help any of the points I made or is even something that is so overwhelmingly an issue compared to the points I made.",
">\n\nSo long as we have to work to live, all jobs are coercive, even sex work. I’m skeptical that there can ever be a consensual exchange within our current economic context.",
">\n\nExactly , I get sex is intimate but if you are willing to view sex work as any other job , you should be willing to treat it as such",
">\n\nSex work has certain occupational hazards that cannot be regulated away. OSHA (in the US) dictates that a person cannot be subject to bodily fluids without proper PPE in the workplace, and often johns just need to pay more to not wear a condom. Imagine a construction site paying workers more to not wear a hard hat. The greater potential for bodily harm is intrinsic to the work, and it will always be unsafe.",
">\n\nTrue but this doesn't really answer my question",
">\n\nMy point is that treating it like any other job is not ethically possible due to hazardous conditions",
">\n\nThis is a bad take.\nI’d wager prostitution doesn’t even rank in the top ten dangerous jobs by capita.",
">\n\nThat really depends. A gas station cashier likely has a higher risk of being killed. But a quick Google shows sex workers are thirty times more likely to get Aids than the general population. They're also at ridiculously high rates of risk to their mental health. Ptsd is common. Also, yes, sitting at a counter in a gas station is technically dangerous. But it is different type of danger compared to someone fucking them in the ass while shoving a sock in their mouth and calling them a dirty whore. When this happens to a prostitute, since she isn't dead, then all good right?! :) Her job isn't dangerous, she's still alive! And they're really not paid much. Average pay for a sex scene in porn for a woman is around $600, for the guy it's like a hundred. For prostitution you're looking at a hundred to two hundred dollars. \nAlso, if you're in the us. Good luck affording health insurance as an independent contractor engaged in sex work.",
">\n\nI’m not exactly impressed with the American system so if you’re criticising Americans health system then fuck yeah more power to you.\nYou raise fantastic points about there being non lethal dangers in sex work that are worth considering and harder to measure.\nThat being said, sit for a while and think about whether you think that sex workers are in a job so dangerous that it deserves its own category and shouldn’t even be allowed. (This is what the commenter I was responding to was claiming)\nI’m comfortable I’d ban lumberjack as a profession long before I considered banning prostitution based on relative level of danger and conditions.\nI don’t have a specific statistic but soldiers at an educated guess would probably be more likely to experience danger and mental issues but the commenter I responded to probably never thought for one second about banning soldiers on that basis.\nIt’s clear bias, being rationalised as something it isn’t.",
">\n\nIt's decriminalised where I live, which means women can arrange anything themselves. So you can have a strip club with a \"hotel\" above it. Basically 100% of the workers are foreign, from places like Ukraine. Russia, Moldova, Romania. Etc. It's a strange aspect which isn't often brought up. But\"legalizing \" almost always results on foreign workers undercutting any local workforce. How can a 26 year old American girl from the burbs compete with an 18 year Thai girl? One is fine doing work at basically the rates of a full time McDonald's employee, while the other isn't. And of course, that breeds the type of people you'd imagine running the business. Even in places like Amsterdam, where there's tons of regulation, you get the same trafficking you see anywhere else.\nSo morally. I've got zero problem. But I've just never seen a model that can actually ensure safety for everyone involved.",
">\n\nWell culture is everything isn't it? Of there wasn't so much sex tourism from places that have prostitution illegal there would probably be less demand wouldn't there? Less demand would make the whole industry safer imo due to the loss of money driving the search for foreign market girls\nLike imagine the whole world has a brothel just down the block. Does that make it more safe just by sheer volume and normality?",
">\n\nFirstly, i'm not religious, i'm sex-positive and the sex lives of strangers rarely concerns me. I don't think paying for these services makes you a \"bad\" person, nor a \"disgusting\" one.. but for me, it would affect your desirability to me as a partner. To me attraction is a big thing, and i'll be honest, I see it as kind of lame. Not morally corrupt but just ...desperate. \nI would want my partner to be someone that women wanted to have sex with, not the man that they had sex with as a purely profitable transaction. Whilst it's consensual, when you involve money or a benefit other than sex, the line slightly blurs, and I find it becomes icky. \nIt's not even that I think my partner should only have had strictly intimate and personable relations... but the question does spring to mind of \"is sex that has been paid for truly consensual? can you guarantee that?\" Even popular Pornstars who previously agreed to do porn and made careers out of it have stories where they later felt disgusted by what they've had to do but were so enamored by the money, they went through with it. Sex workers will ALWAYS sell a positive image to their clients, part of their job is to make you feel desired, but you never truly know the reality. \nAll in all, it can be seen as \"bad\" or \"disgusting\" because monetary rewards affects the lines of purely consensual sex. The same way it can be icky for a boss to have sex with the intern, the same way directors have sex with actresses that want to star in their movies, and the same way rockstars have sex with their fans. Doesn't make 'em rapists, but it's why people won't look at it as respectable.",
">\n\nyou aren’t sex positive if you think paying for sex is desperate.\ndoes paying for alcohol mean you’re desperate for happiness? some people want to have fun so they buy drinks, others find more fun in sex. as long as sex work is consensual and not the result of pimping or some other form of coercion then I don’t see any harm or how it would be desperate.\nthere are tangible benefits to buying sex vs finding it “naturally” that i don’t think you’re considering. \nwith sex workers you’re safer and don’t have to worry about pregnancy, theft, psychotic women, and other risks that come from random hookups with strangers or even casual dating. there’s also the whole “i don’t need to put time and effort into finding and flirting with someone” when it can be on demand. yea making food at home is usually cheaper and better tasting than takeout but sometimes you’re lazy and want a pizza delivered.",
">\n\nI’m generally sex positive to consensual sex between people. However, everything falls on a spectrum and I don’t think you have to have a certain view on every avenue to be as such. Much like you can love your job, your country or your friends but that doesn’t mean you can’t provide any forms of criticism nor must you love EVERY aspect of these things. \nI have no disdain for people who hook up on dating apps, clubs, attend sex parties etc. I will always believe sex workers should have right to practice and do so in a safe environment. I also wouldn’t stop their client base either, it’s not my business, but there are ethical implications and I’ve said my view from the perspective of my partner which naturally i hold to a more personable standard. I wouldn’t want to be with someone who puts their sexual desires above the possible implications involved in sex work. \nI do want to touch on your point that as long as it’s not coerced or forced, it’s okay. The ethical implication behind this is that when you involve money, this is not guaranteed. Not all clients will take the time to research the background and extra people involved behind the scenes. The women with pimps and who are trafficked won’t spill those beans to you. Again, there will always be exceptions to the rule. \nI understand that sex work is convenient to many but my perception is not swayed by the mere idea that paying for sex means you get to avoid having to flirt with women. Much like I can understand why people have no choice to purchase fast fashion and I’ll understand the reasoning but that does not mean I should ignore the child labour and poor conditions that make this possible. \nAll in all, I won’t stop you but I’m going to think it’s kinda lame. You can wear an item of clothing, I’ll defend you to wear that clothing and I won’t make you feel bad for wearing it.. but I may not like it myself.",
">\n\nReading your posts made me think of a bird preening it's feathers to attract a mate. I thought it was just you being obtuse untill you brought fashion into this lol\nYou really are just a pair of eyes arnt you. No complexity attached. \"I saw it in the window so I bought it! I didn't even care that it was 500$ I just wanted it because the other girls were eyeing it down and I just HAD to have it💅\"",
">\n\nI genuinely have no idea what you’re trying to convey. The topic of fashion was merely to represent that there are often complexities and nuance. So yes, I can be sex positive but I don’t necessarily have to agree with all the variances within the to topic of sex. \nI assume I’ve hit a nerve for your style of response.",
">\n\nNot sure about everywhere else but in America being as prostitution is illegal a lot of the situations the workers are in are really sad, depressing and predatory. If you take a look at the book “Pimp” by ice berg slim for example a lot of the industry isn’t the ideal some just wants to make money like any other job and the pimp is just a bodyguard/manger,\nA lot of it involves a tone of manipulation and dependency and when you add on the ones where safe sex isn’t a priority and the literal hundreds of partners you engage with in such a short time it all comes off as kinda gross.",
">\n\nSex, when a service, is not the same as any other service. There is a difference between driving a person somewhere in a taxi and having your face fucked and ejaculated on by a stranger. As many have stated before and as you can see in 99% of porn is that sex as a service is usually degrading towards women. Just look at the front page of any given porn site. Most of it is not, in any way, esteeming of the women participating. Look at goddamn blowjob videos. The women are not giving a blowjob - they are getting their face fucked. Extra points if they have to gag and be obviously physically uncomfortable and struggling to breathe. Dude it is just not the same as someone operating a forklift or making flower arrangements. Most of it is degrading and the more degrading the more klicks - the more people who frequent porn sites like it. And it's the same with prostitution. Read about what these women have experienced. It is plain awful. Sure if you are talking about a utopia where you can be 100% sure the prostitutes are there on their own terms and if every single customer is a loving, caring, gentle person taking care of the sex workers needs as much as their own - then yes, there would not be anything wrong with it. But that is just not how it is.\nHow hard is it, even in a healthy loving relationship, to always have both partners perfectly satisfied and met their needs sexually?\nSex is as intimate as human interaction can get and buying that from someone is taking all incentive away to treat the other person as good as you would treat a partner who you love and/or actively want to enjoy the time with you.\nAnd that is what disgusts people about people who frequent prostitutes. The possibility of being a person who, as long as they pay for something or feel like they've done their dues, doesn't give a shit about what the person on the other end is experiencing.\nedit: Because of other comments from OP I accused them of debating rather than discussing and suggested if they were seeking moral validation for what they do, which in itself was not part of a discussion really. I deleted that part because it serves no neutral purpose.",
">\n\nWell in this context not special but very very different, in the way that it is way more intimate, there's actually a part of ones body entering the others. There is exchange of bodily fluids. Those services are different from each other the same way as a massage is different to shoving items across a scanner, just times ten. One is naked, one experiences pleasure (or great pain) and one is not using their body to do something, they are having their body be used by someone else. That can leave physical bruises and mental scars because one is extremely vulnerable in the act.",
">\n\nMy view on it is that the act in itself is not wrong for anybody involved, but the character implication is what causes it to be met with disgust by some.\nIf you have money and you pay for sex from somebody who is willing, then it's no problem, but the issue comes when you delve into why they might be paying for sex.\nMany people experience sex in a consensual environment with a person who desires sex with them, and no money is involved. Many would view this as a very normal and important part of life.\nThe question that comes up subconsciously and/or consciously is \"why does this person need to pay for sex?\"\nIt could be that they have undeveloped social skills and this coild be deemed as a negative trait that needs to be worked on.\nAnother reason could be an atypically high sex drive, which could also be perceived as sex addiction.\nThese are not unlikely reasons for a person to pay a sex worker for sex and a judgement could be made before understanding more that they possess These sorts of traits that people simply have the desire to avoid.",
">\n\nThis is the correct answer. \nThe reason people look down on people who hire hookers has nothing to do with sex trafficking, or what really qualifies as consent, or any of the other comments in this thread. I think a good example is your iPhone. It is basically made with slave labor, but nobody really gives a shit. They just happily use their phone. If they actually did give a shit, they wouldn't buy iPhones. Also, prostitution has been around basically since the beginning of time. It has always been a part of human relationships and always will be.\nFor better or worse, the reason people look down on people who hire hookers is that it implies you are deficient in some way. If you were better looking or had better social skills or had more control over your base urges you would not need to hire a hooker. \nPersonally, I look at it like a wheelchair. I dont need a wheelchair and I really hope I never need one, but it is not fair (and downright cruel) for me to look down on someone who does use one. Are they deficient in some way? Yes. They can't walk. Do they deserve admonishment or judgement? No. Not at all.",
">\n\nYou're not paying too have sex with a prostitute. You're paying to use her body as a masturbatory aid.\nProstitution reduces women to being commodities, objects, things. Every other job, you're providing a skill to produce or exchange goods and services. Prostitution, the woman is the thing you're purchasing. The women are the commodities, they're not viewed as humen, they're viewed as consumable goods.",
">\n\nJust like almost every other Job, and any other form of sex work like strippers, onlyfans model , some e girl, girls who post theist traps on social media, so what makes those empowering and not this",
">\n\nStrippers, only fans, e-girls are not empowering. It's gross. When it comes down to it, they're sluts. And they're no better than their fuck-boy counterparts.",
">\n\nOK fair so the difference in worldview is what makes argumen unsound to you !delta",
">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/19jals80 (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nYou just can never know for sure whether the sex worker is being trafficked or not. You can't assume they'd tell you the truth if you asked. They might endanger themselves by telling you the truth. The sex worker wants money, and is willing to have some sexual contact with you in order to get the money. But fundamentally, they're permitting you to do something to their body that they do not want in and of itself. Therefore, their consent is dubious and conditional upon your payment. To me, that's not sufficient consent. I want someone I'm having sex with to genuinely, enthusiastically want to have sex with me for the sole purpose of enjoying sex with me. I don't want to use people as means to ends, and I don't want to be used as a means to anyone else's ends.\nI don't morally disapprove of sex work. I just wouldn't support it because it doesn't provide a good or service that interests me. I want actual human connection, which is something money cannot buy. I do morally disapprove of a system that drives people into sex work to get by or get ahead.",
">\n\n\nYou just can never know for sure whether the sex worker is being trafficked or not. \n\nThis argument can be made for any form of low-skilled labor.\nThere is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that sex work uses slavery more often than say construction work or weaving baskets.\nYour argument applies just as easily to buying a shoe, because it could have been constructed by slaves.",
">\n\nYour whataboutism does nothing to resolve the moral question.",
">\n\n“whataboutism” is the new trendy defence for people who've been shown a reductiō ad absurdum it seems.\nI'm showing that your argument can just as easily be used to argue the absurd, and that therefore it can't hold much water. Unless one were to believe in the absurd, and would believe that there is a problem with buying shoes or about any product.",
">\n\nAgain, none of what you've said addresses the moral dilemma in question. Moral questions can't be hand-waved away with empty rhetorical devices. This is still a question of how our choices impact the lives and well-being of others. The fact that we live in a world run by greed does not alleviate the moral burden of making this decision responsibly.",
">\n\nI don't think there is a solid \" yes \" or \" no \" answer to this question. There are so many ( but if's) that it's hard to give more than just an opinion.\n\n\nSpeaking from a Christian perspective, morally, yeah, it's wrong. Because sex is seen as something that's sacred that should be shared between 2 consenting married adults. \n\n\nBut if a woman isn't being forced in any type of way, shape, or form and she simply enjoys cash & realized opening her legs to buyers can get her lots of cash, that's her business. Not anyone else's.",
">\n\nTrying to justify yourself?",
">\n\nWhat is unjustifiable here?",
">\n\nI recently visited one. Frankly I just sought for intimacy. I asked them to kiss me and just take it slow. Because that’s what I miss in my life: intimacy.\nI noticed a lot of people have an opinion on it. I can never tell my parents nor my friends. You can only blame me to be socially maladjusted. I have tried all things I could in dating beforehand and frankly it didn’t work.\nSo… I think it’s something in my character to seek for a prostitute. I don’t think it should be condemned because everyone seeks what I am seeking. Only difference is some people can find it over Tinder or in their social circles, and I have to pay for it. Sorry, I wish it was different but it isn’t.",
">\n\nInteresting post. Thanks.\nWhat would you see that would make you change your mind?\n\nsex is considered intimate and special to some people \n\nWhat if sex is objectively intimate and special, as opposed to “some people” finding it subjectively intimate and special? Would that change your mind?",
">\n\nI think in context of religion and this kind of view yes but if you lack this, you are Into causal sex ,and support sex work I don't get it",
">\n\nThanks for the response.\nLet’s back up…I think we are missing each other. The sub is called r/changemyview, so I first want to understand your view and then have you tell me what would change it. Alternatively, if nothing would change it, I would like to know that, too.\nI think your argument is the following:\nP1: Moral oppobrium is an appropriate response only to moral failures.\nP2: There is no moral aspect to a consensual sex act.\nC1: Therefore, moral oppobrium is not appropriate for (uncoerced) sex workers and their patrons.\nDo I have that right? If not, please correct me.",
">\n\nYou do",
">\n\nWhat about how awfully the punters treat the women who work in prostitution, as this article (and many others) reveals? Would you not look down on these men because of this?"
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It's seen as a character flaw because people are expected to suppress their need for sex to some extent until they find an actual romantic partner. The fact that they can't do that shows they don't care about the expectation to do so and/or are too focused on getting sex to care.
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"/u/Due-Lie-8710 (OP) has awarded 7 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nThere's a song I like that speaks on this fairly poetically, so I'd like to start by just directly quoting it:\n\nSo when you bled on the bed as you fed those expectations, as a whore and not a human, you embraced with hesitation the very parameters of all you can be. Not a mother, not an aunt, not a sister who's not subdued. Because dignity's not physical, and your flesh means more than you.\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.",
">\n\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.\n\nFirst of all if you aren't trafficked it is just like another job, as for you both being seen as human , make sense hey aren't there to befriend to have sex , you are performing a service, it's like you watching football or a movie, you only see them as footballers ot actors , half of the time they don't care about their personal life, there are some jobs that prevent you from getting any high paying jobs or jobs that involve care , as for the people purchasing it , if you can't purchase it then why should they sell it , you don't actually support sex work, because that would mean accepting the consumer base ad well as the supplier",
">\n\nThat’s a really big if though, sex work isn’t exactly an industry where you will know for sure if the service you’re getting is consensual. individuals who are victims of sexual trafficking, coercion, or just life circumstance aren’t likely to just tell their “customers” if it isn’t consensual. they could endanger themselves or not be aware that they can say something. \nSeeing someone as an object vs seeing them as an individual with a job aren’t the same though? yes we recognize actors and football players by their career choice and how well they are at it, but they’re still people at the end of the day? that’s why they have fanbases, interviews, paparazzi, popularity on social media, movie adaptions of their life exist—people are interested in more than them just doing their job.\nA persons job is no reason to suddenly strip them of their humanity and rights granted them for being such, that kind of mentality is morally skewed and why a lot of people would not support sex work. plus you can’t say it makes sense for sex workers to be see as commodities only and then believe sex work will be consensual. the whole consent part comes from recognizing that this is another person who has their own boundaries and limits beyond just what you want.",
">\n\nokay, that’s a plumber and not a person you’re having sex with. unlike plumbing which is clean cut, sex can include multiple aspects of different kinks and fetishes. You can’t expect a sex worker to be okay with say participating in rape play, anal, scat, and a mirage of other kinks simply because they agreed to sex. Sex is not clean cut, there is more to it. There has to be a boundary somewhere, this is another person body not a pipe.",
">\n\nThat’s like the point? recognizing the boundary and proceeding from there by RESPECTING the boundary because they are another person and not some masturbatory object. What you just said was a consensual interaction. The initial point was that there is no consensual sex without respecting the party that’s giving as a person.",
">\n\nSo... there's a concept of a moral hazard. \nThere's literally no way for an individual to be certain that their prostitute is not being coerced/trafficked. Even if there are some special circumstances where it might be unlikely, certainty is still impossible, and most people frequenting prostitutes are not in those special circumstances.\nSomeone using their services is therefore extremely likely to be comfortable with risking that they are unknowingly raping someone. \nGenerally speaking, people find that disgusting.",
">\n\nIf you eat chocolate (even the stuff with the fair trade sticker) then there's no guarantee that it hasn't come from slave farms which are not uncommon. If you eat chocolate throughout your life then you are almost definitely contributing to slavery. If you visit a prostitute regularly then the chance they're being exploited is anywhere from functioninally 0% to 100%. So why treat the John who might be discerning with scorn and not the chocolate eater who is a much safer bet in having contributed to coerced labour.",
">\n\nIt's worth trying to avoid those situations, but ultimately it's a very false equivalence to hold people responsible for the actions of others, vs. their own personal actions.\nWhen you buy chocolate, you're not actually holding a gun to a slave, someone else is. The right answer to that is to lobby for worker protections for imported goods, and to try to end involuntary servitude within your country as well. \nWhen you have sex with a trafficked person, you personally literally raped them. If you don't have good evidence to know they aren't trafficked, you're personally ok with the possibility you're going to personally rape them. \nBoth might be considered bad. But it's a false equivalence.\nAnd sure... if someone is paying someone for sex when they are personal friends with them, and interact with them outside of prostitution enough to personally know that they aren't being trafficked... and you're sure they aren't lying, scorning them more than at most some light ribbing isn't justified. It's not like \"sugar daddies\" aren't a thing as well. At the very least much less disapprobation would be appropriate.",
">\n\nIn both cases, there is a customer receiving a service provided by a potentially enslaved person. They are morally equivalent. It makes no sense to say “sure I bought the slavery chocolate, but you can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”",
">\n\n\nyou can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”\n\nThe slavers actions are distinct from the consumers' actions for most things. \nThis is an actual important difference when it comes to prostitution. \nIgnoring that fundamental difference doesn't make it go away, and it's entirely reasonable for someone to make that distinction.",
">\n\nThe slaver and consumer are different people who take different actions in the prostitution scenario. The consumer in both scenarios is taking the risk of being immoral. If I force you to be my slave that’s still immoral whether or not I put you to work in my brothel or mine or factory or fishing boat. And if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever, it’s equivalent.",
">\n\n\nAnd if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever , it’s equivalent.\n\nThis is where the false equivalence comes in. \nSomeone making products with slave labor is not renting out a slave to the consumer so that they consumer can force them to perform mining for the consumer. They are enslaving the labor to create a product, and selling the product. Products don't have rights to violate. The only person violating the rights of the slave is the slaver.\nSomeone trafficking a victim is renting out that victim so that the consumer can rape them.",
">\n\nIf the sex is only contractual to you? Why not just \"hook up.\" Why pay? You will never be able to guarantee they are not being trafficked. If they are, they are not going to tell you. I think the idea of money exchanging hands for sex is the why most have a problem. The idea that you are giving a woman money for sex has been historically seen as her being a whore. \nI am not saying she is. I am saying that from the time it first exchanged hands, that is what it was. Men who could not find a woman, paid a woman. Why do you want others to see it differently? Yes, there will be outliers that will enjoy the work. But those are going to be ones that, like the escort, chose it, and charge what they want. Not the typical street hookers on the corner with pimps to pay. \nProve they are not trafficked, they work for themselves, they are clean (of both drugs and diseases - because they are taking care of themselves and being safe), and that they are a sex worker because they enjoy the work or that that chose the work. Then, hey! Pay 'em and get to it!",
">\n\nI think it is morally unhealthy to normalize it. Even though you have to be an adult to smoke weed, we definitely see weed as a normal thing to do in moderation compared to a few decades ago. This is how we would see prostitution if it was normalized. And I think weed has a lot less complications than legalizing prostitution. A LOT!\nSex work online is a lot safer and requires a lot less mental issues to engage in and promote. But even then, I know some sex workers (online type), and they are scarred by the stuff they have seen when it comes to their job. They have told me stories that are extremely disturbing. These are women who just do stuff by themselves. Not working with a porn company and other people.\nAlso, sex has a huge reputation for being violent and demoralizing towards women in general. I'd assume those numbers would be much higher in men looking to pay for sex. You'd have to have extremely strict and tight regulations for this sort of thing, which would take the fun out of it for a lot of people. And even then, there would still be many mistakes that would happen before we find out all the regulations that are needed. And I don't think we could ever make it mentally and physically safe for women.\nNow, do I think it should be decriminalized for prostitutes? Definitely. I don't see them as disgusting. I feel quite bad for them. Most of them were trafficked at a young age. Do I see men wanting to pay for sex as disgusting? Not necessarily. It depends on the person and the situation. However, this isn't a simple issue where if we just \"stop judging people,\" everything will be fine.",
">\n\nDecriminalizing prostitution for both those selling and buying is demonstrably safer for prostitutes. If it is criminal for the buyer but not the seller, the buyer is often highly defensive and paranoid about the seller, specifically the possibility that they may be working with law enforcement. The buyer will often push to do it in a highly isolated setting as well. These things increase violence that sex workers face, and the averages go down in places where it is decriminalized to both buy and sell. If you have a designated work place for it and no one needs to be distrustful and worried about being arrested, that is the safest situation for all involved. \nWe may disagree with buying it for whatever moral reason, but if we choose to criminalize the purchase of it, we are prioritizing punishing behavior we morally disagree with over prioritizing the safety of those involved, which I can't get behind.",
">\n\nBut there are so many more facets to the safety of legalizing it for the buyer other than them being pushy or wanting to do it in a hidden area. If we legalized it, it still wouldn't really help any of the points I made or is even something that is so overwhelmingly an issue compared to the points I made.",
">\n\nSo long as we have to work to live, all jobs are coercive, even sex work. I’m skeptical that there can ever be a consensual exchange within our current economic context.",
">\n\nExactly , I get sex is intimate but if you are willing to view sex work as any other job , you should be willing to treat it as such",
">\n\nSex work has certain occupational hazards that cannot be regulated away. OSHA (in the US) dictates that a person cannot be subject to bodily fluids without proper PPE in the workplace, and often johns just need to pay more to not wear a condom. Imagine a construction site paying workers more to not wear a hard hat. The greater potential for bodily harm is intrinsic to the work, and it will always be unsafe.",
">\n\nTrue but this doesn't really answer my question",
">\n\nMy point is that treating it like any other job is not ethically possible due to hazardous conditions",
">\n\nThis is a bad take.\nI’d wager prostitution doesn’t even rank in the top ten dangerous jobs by capita.",
">\n\nThat really depends. A gas station cashier likely has a higher risk of being killed. But a quick Google shows sex workers are thirty times more likely to get Aids than the general population. They're also at ridiculously high rates of risk to their mental health. Ptsd is common. Also, yes, sitting at a counter in a gas station is technically dangerous. But it is different type of danger compared to someone fucking them in the ass while shoving a sock in their mouth and calling them a dirty whore. When this happens to a prostitute, since she isn't dead, then all good right?! :) Her job isn't dangerous, she's still alive! And they're really not paid much. Average pay for a sex scene in porn for a woman is around $600, for the guy it's like a hundred. For prostitution you're looking at a hundred to two hundred dollars. \nAlso, if you're in the us. Good luck affording health insurance as an independent contractor engaged in sex work.",
">\n\nI’m not exactly impressed with the American system so if you’re criticising Americans health system then fuck yeah more power to you.\nYou raise fantastic points about there being non lethal dangers in sex work that are worth considering and harder to measure.\nThat being said, sit for a while and think about whether you think that sex workers are in a job so dangerous that it deserves its own category and shouldn’t even be allowed. (This is what the commenter I was responding to was claiming)\nI’m comfortable I’d ban lumberjack as a profession long before I considered banning prostitution based on relative level of danger and conditions.\nI don’t have a specific statistic but soldiers at an educated guess would probably be more likely to experience danger and mental issues but the commenter I responded to probably never thought for one second about banning soldiers on that basis.\nIt’s clear bias, being rationalised as something it isn’t.",
">\n\nIt's decriminalised where I live, which means women can arrange anything themselves. So you can have a strip club with a \"hotel\" above it. Basically 100% of the workers are foreign, from places like Ukraine. Russia, Moldova, Romania. Etc. It's a strange aspect which isn't often brought up. But\"legalizing \" almost always results on foreign workers undercutting any local workforce. How can a 26 year old American girl from the burbs compete with an 18 year Thai girl? One is fine doing work at basically the rates of a full time McDonald's employee, while the other isn't. And of course, that breeds the type of people you'd imagine running the business. Even in places like Amsterdam, where there's tons of regulation, you get the same trafficking you see anywhere else.\nSo morally. I've got zero problem. But I've just never seen a model that can actually ensure safety for everyone involved.",
">\n\nWell culture is everything isn't it? Of there wasn't so much sex tourism from places that have prostitution illegal there would probably be less demand wouldn't there? Less demand would make the whole industry safer imo due to the loss of money driving the search for foreign market girls\nLike imagine the whole world has a brothel just down the block. Does that make it more safe just by sheer volume and normality?",
">\n\nFirstly, i'm not religious, i'm sex-positive and the sex lives of strangers rarely concerns me. I don't think paying for these services makes you a \"bad\" person, nor a \"disgusting\" one.. but for me, it would affect your desirability to me as a partner. To me attraction is a big thing, and i'll be honest, I see it as kind of lame. Not morally corrupt but just ...desperate. \nI would want my partner to be someone that women wanted to have sex with, not the man that they had sex with as a purely profitable transaction. Whilst it's consensual, when you involve money or a benefit other than sex, the line slightly blurs, and I find it becomes icky. \nIt's not even that I think my partner should only have had strictly intimate and personable relations... but the question does spring to mind of \"is sex that has been paid for truly consensual? can you guarantee that?\" Even popular Pornstars who previously agreed to do porn and made careers out of it have stories where they later felt disgusted by what they've had to do but were so enamored by the money, they went through with it. Sex workers will ALWAYS sell a positive image to their clients, part of their job is to make you feel desired, but you never truly know the reality. \nAll in all, it can be seen as \"bad\" or \"disgusting\" because monetary rewards affects the lines of purely consensual sex. The same way it can be icky for a boss to have sex with the intern, the same way directors have sex with actresses that want to star in their movies, and the same way rockstars have sex with their fans. Doesn't make 'em rapists, but it's why people won't look at it as respectable.",
">\n\nyou aren’t sex positive if you think paying for sex is desperate.\ndoes paying for alcohol mean you’re desperate for happiness? some people want to have fun so they buy drinks, others find more fun in sex. as long as sex work is consensual and not the result of pimping or some other form of coercion then I don’t see any harm or how it would be desperate.\nthere are tangible benefits to buying sex vs finding it “naturally” that i don’t think you’re considering. \nwith sex workers you’re safer and don’t have to worry about pregnancy, theft, psychotic women, and other risks that come from random hookups with strangers or even casual dating. there’s also the whole “i don’t need to put time and effort into finding and flirting with someone” when it can be on demand. yea making food at home is usually cheaper and better tasting than takeout but sometimes you’re lazy and want a pizza delivered.",
">\n\nI’m generally sex positive to consensual sex between people. However, everything falls on a spectrum and I don’t think you have to have a certain view on every avenue to be as such. Much like you can love your job, your country or your friends but that doesn’t mean you can’t provide any forms of criticism nor must you love EVERY aspect of these things. \nI have no disdain for people who hook up on dating apps, clubs, attend sex parties etc. I will always believe sex workers should have right to practice and do so in a safe environment. I also wouldn’t stop their client base either, it’s not my business, but there are ethical implications and I’ve said my view from the perspective of my partner which naturally i hold to a more personable standard. I wouldn’t want to be with someone who puts their sexual desires above the possible implications involved in sex work. \nI do want to touch on your point that as long as it’s not coerced or forced, it’s okay. The ethical implication behind this is that when you involve money, this is not guaranteed. Not all clients will take the time to research the background and extra people involved behind the scenes. The women with pimps and who are trafficked won’t spill those beans to you. Again, there will always be exceptions to the rule. \nI understand that sex work is convenient to many but my perception is not swayed by the mere idea that paying for sex means you get to avoid having to flirt with women. Much like I can understand why people have no choice to purchase fast fashion and I’ll understand the reasoning but that does not mean I should ignore the child labour and poor conditions that make this possible. \nAll in all, I won’t stop you but I’m going to think it’s kinda lame. You can wear an item of clothing, I’ll defend you to wear that clothing and I won’t make you feel bad for wearing it.. but I may not like it myself.",
">\n\nReading your posts made me think of a bird preening it's feathers to attract a mate. I thought it was just you being obtuse untill you brought fashion into this lol\nYou really are just a pair of eyes arnt you. No complexity attached. \"I saw it in the window so I bought it! I didn't even care that it was 500$ I just wanted it because the other girls were eyeing it down and I just HAD to have it💅\"",
">\n\nI genuinely have no idea what you’re trying to convey. The topic of fashion was merely to represent that there are often complexities and nuance. So yes, I can be sex positive but I don’t necessarily have to agree with all the variances within the to topic of sex. \nI assume I’ve hit a nerve for your style of response.",
">\n\nNot sure about everywhere else but in America being as prostitution is illegal a lot of the situations the workers are in are really sad, depressing and predatory. If you take a look at the book “Pimp” by ice berg slim for example a lot of the industry isn’t the ideal some just wants to make money like any other job and the pimp is just a bodyguard/manger,\nA lot of it involves a tone of manipulation and dependency and when you add on the ones where safe sex isn’t a priority and the literal hundreds of partners you engage with in such a short time it all comes off as kinda gross.",
">\n\nSex, when a service, is not the same as any other service. There is a difference between driving a person somewhere in a taxi and having your face fucked and ejaculated on by a stranger. As many have stated before and as you can see in 99% of porn is that sex as a service is usually degrading towards women. Just look at the front page of any given porn site. Most of it is not, in any way, esteeming of the women participating. Look at goddamn blowjob videos. The women are not giving a blowjob - they are getting their face fucked. Extra points if they have to gag and be obviously physically uncomfortable and struggling to breathe. Dude it is just not the same as someone operating a forklift or making flower arrangements. Most of it is degrading and the more degrading the more klicks - the more people who frequent porn sites like it. And it's the same with prostitution. Read about what these women have experienced. It is plain awful. Sure if you are talking about a utopia where you can be 100% sure the prostitutes are there on their own terms and if every single customer is a loving, caring, gentle person taking care of the sex workers needs as much as their own - then yes, there would not be anything wrong with it. But that is just not how it is.\nHow hard is it, even in a healthy loving relationship, to always have both partners perfectly satisfied and met their needs sexually?\nSex is as intimate as human interaction can get and buying that from someone is taking all incentive away to treat the other person as good as you would treat a partner who you love and/or actively want to enjoy the time with you.\nAnd that is what disgusts people about people who frequent prostitutes. The possibility of being a person who, as long as they pay for something or feel like they've done their dues, doesn't give a shit about what the person on the other end is experiencing.\nedit: Because of other comments from OP I accused them of debating rather than discussing and suggested if they were seeking moral validation for what they do, which in itself was not part of a discussion really. I deleted that part because it serves no neutral purpose.",
">\n\nWell in this context not special but very very different, in the way that it is way more intimate, there's actually a part of ones body entering the others. There is exchange of bodily fluids. Those services are different from each other the same way as a massage is different to shoving items across a scanner, just times ten. One is naked, one experiences pleasure (or great pain) and one is not using their body to do something, they are having their body be used by someone else. That can leave physical bruises and mental scars because one is extremely vulnerable in the act.",
">\n\nMy view on it is that the act in itself is not wrong for anybody involved, but the character implication is what causes it to be met with disgust by some.\nIf you have money and you pay for sex from somebody who is willing, then it's no problem, but the issue comes when you delve into why they might be paying for sex.\nMany people experience sex in a consensual environment with a person who desires sex with them, and no money is involved. Many would view this as a very normal and important part of life.\nThe question that comes up subconsciously and/or consciously is \"why does this person need to pay for sex?\"\nIt could be that they have undeveloped social skills and this coild be deemed as a negative trait that needs to be worked on.\nAnother reason could be an atypically high sex drive, which could also be perceived as sex addiction.\nThese are not unlikely reasons for a person to pay a sex worker for sex and a judgement could be made before understanding more that they possess These sorts of traits that people simply have the desire to avoid.",
">\n\nThis is the correct answer. \nThe reason people look down on people who hire hookers has nothing to do with sex trafficking, or what really qualifies as consent, or any of the other comments in this thread. I think a good example is your iPhone. It is basically made with slave labor, but nobody really gives a shit. They just happily use their phone. If they actually did give a shit, they wouldn't buy iPhones. Also, prostitution has been around basically since the beginning of time. It has always been a part of human relationships and always will be.\nFor better or worse, the reason people look down on people who hire hookers is that it implies you are deficient in some way. If you were better looking or had better social skills or had more control over your base urges you would not need to hire a hooker. \nPersonally, I look at it like a wheelchair. I dont need a wheelchair and I really hope I never need one, but it is not fair (and downright cruel) for me to look down on someone who does use one. Are they deficient in some way? Yes. They can't walk. Do they deserve admonishment or judgement? No. Not at all.",
">\n\nYou're not paying too have sex with a prostitute. You're paying to use her body as a masturbatory aid.\nProstitution reduces women to being commodities, objects, things. Every other job, you're providing a skill to produce or exchange goods and services. Prostitution, the woman is the thing you're purchasing. The women are the commodities, they're not viewed as humen, they're viewed as consumable goods.",
">\n\nJust like almost every other Job, and any other form of sex work like strippers, onlyfans model , some e girl, girls who post theist traps on social media, so what makes those empowering and not this",
">\n\nStrippers, only fans, e-girls are not empowering. It's gross. When it comes down to it, they're sluts. And they're no better than their fuck-boy counterparts.",
">\n\nOK fair so the difference in worldview is what makes argumen unsound to you !delta",
">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/19jals80 (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nYou just can never know for sure whether the sex worker is being trafficked or not. You can't assume they'd tell you the truth if you asked. They might endanger themselves by telling you the truth. The sex worker wants money, and is willing to have some sexual contact with you in order to get the money. But fundamentally, they're permitting you to do something to their body that they do not want in and of itself. Therefore, their consent is dubious and conditional upon your payment. To me, that's not sufficient consent. I want someone I'm having sex with to genuinely, enthusiastically want to have sex with me for the sole purpose of enjoying sex with me. I don't want to use people as means to ends, and I don't want to be used as a means to anyone else's ends.\nI don't morally disapprove of sex work. I just wouldn't support it because it doesn't provide a good or service that interests me. I want actual human connection, which is something money cannot buy. I do morally disapprove of a system that drives people into sex work to get by or get ahead.",
">\n\n\nYou just can never know for sure whether the sex worker is being trafficked or not. \n\nThis argument can be made for any form of low-skilled labor.\nThere is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that sex work uses slavery more often than say construction work or weaving baskets.\nYour argument applies just as easily to buying a shoe, because it could have been constructed by slaves.",
">\n\nYour whataboutism does nothing to resolve the moral question.",
">\n\n“whataboutism” is the new trendy defence for people who've been shown a reductiō ad absurdum it seems.\nI'm showing that your argument can just as easily be used to argue the absurd, and that therefore it can't hold much water. Unless one were to believe in the absurd, and would believe that there is a problem with buying shoes or about any product.",
">\n\nAgain, none of what you've said addresses the moral dilemma in question. Moral questions can't be hand-waved away with empty rhetorical devices. This is still a question of how our choices impact the lives and well-being of others. The fact that we live in a world run by greed does not alleviate the moral burden of making this decision responsibly.",
">\n\nI don't think there is a solid \" yes \" or \" no \" answer to this question. There are so many ( but if's) that it's hard to give more than just an opinion.\n\n\nSpeaking from a Christian perspective, morally, yeah, it's wrong. Because sex is seen as something that's sacred that should be shared between 2 consenting married adults. \n\n\nBut if a woman isn't being forced in any type of way, shape, or form and she simply enjoys cash & realized opening her legs to buyers can get her lots of cash, that's her business. Not anyone else's.",
">\n\nTrying to justify yourself?",
">\n\nWhat is unjustifiable here?",
">\n\nI recently visited one. Frankly I just sought for intimacy. I asked them to kiss me and just take it slow. Because that’s what I miss in my life: intimacy.\nI noticed a lot of people have an opinion on it. I can never tell my parents nor my friends. You can only blame me to be socially maladjusted. I have tried all things I could in dating beforehand and frankly it didn’t work.\nSo… I think it’s something in my character to seek for a prostitute. I don’t think it should be condemned because everyone seeks what I am seeking. Only difference is some people can find it over Tinder or in their social circles, and I have to pay for it. Sorry, I wish it was different but it isn’t.",
">\n\nInteresting post. Thanks.\nWhat would you see that would make you change your mind?\n\nsex is considered intimate and special to some people \n\nWhat if sex is objectively intimate and special, as opposed to “some people” finding it subjectively intimate and special? Would that change your mind?",
">\n\nI think in context of religion and this kind of view yes but if you lack this, you are Into causal sex ,and support sex work I don't get it",
">\n\nThanks for the response.\nLet’s back up…I think we are missing each other. The sub is called r/changemyview, so I first want to understand your view and then have you tell me what would change it. Alternatively, if nothing would change it, I would like to know that, too.\nI think your argument is the following:\nP1: Moral oppobrium is an appropriate response only to moral failures.\nP2: There is no moral aspect to a consensual sex act.\nC1: Therefore, moral oppobrium is not appropriate for (uncoerced) sex workers and their patrons.\nDo I have that right? If not, please correct me.",
">\n\nYou do",
">\n\nWhat about how awfully the punters treat the women who work in prostitution, as this article (and many others) reveals? Would you not look down on these men because of this?",
">\n\nI would but not all men who hire sex workers do this , also this is not a specifically sex worker problem , it can happen even in the confines of a relationship , do you also look down on men who enter relationships with women or just the men who are abusive because it also applies in the cases of sex work porn is part of sex work\nSome of the other issues come with the job which like it or not the one who aren't trafficked consent to it , like the idea that they don't get hired for other jobs , then things like racism , sexual harassment violence , addiction being a single mom has nothing to do with sex work"
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paying for sex is paying for consent
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"/u/Due-Lie-8710 (OP) has awarded 7 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nThere's a song I like that speaks on this fairly poetically, so I'd like to start by just directly quoting it:\n\nSo when you bled on the bed as you fed those expectations, as a whore and not a human, you embraced with hesitation the very parameters of all you can be. Not a mother, not an aunt, not a sister who's not subdued. Because dignity's not physical, and your flesh means more than you.\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.",
">\n\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.\n\nFirst of all if you aren't trafficked it is just like another job, as for you both being seen as human , make sense hey aren't there to befriend to have sex , you are performing a service, it's like you watching football or a movie, you only see them as footballers ot actors , half of the time they don't care about their personal life, there are some jobs that prevent you from getting any high paying jobs or jobs that involve care , as for the people purchasing it , if you can't purchase it then why should they sell it , you don't actually support sex work, because that would mean accepting the consumer base ad well as the supplier",
">\n\nThat’s a really big if though, sex work isn’t exactly an industry where you will know for sure if the service you’re getting is consensual. individuals who are victims of sexual trafficking, coercion, or just life circumstance aren’t likely to just tell their “customers” if it isn’t consensual. they could endanger themselves or not be aware that they can say something. \nSeeing someone as an object vs seeing them as an individual with a job aren’t the same though? yes we recognize actors and football players by their career choice and how well they are at it, but they’re still people at the end of the day? that’s why they have fanbases, interviews, paparazzi, popularity on social media, movie adaptions of their life exist—people are interested in more than them just doing their job.\nA persons job is no reason to suddenly strip them of their humanity and rights granted them for being such, that kind of mentality is morally skewed and why a lot of people would not support sex work. plus you can’t say it makes sense for sex workers to be see as commodities only and then believe sex work will be consensual. the whole consent part comes from recognizing that this is another person who has their own boundaries and limits beyond just what you want.",
">\n\nokay, that’s a plumber and not a person you’re having sex with. unlike plumbing which is clean cut, sex can include multiple aspects of different kinks and fetishes. You can’t expect a sex worker to be okay with say participating in rape play, anal, scat, and a mirage of other kinks simply because they agreed to sex. Sex is not clean cut, there is more to it. There has to be a boundary somewhere, this is another person body not a pipe.",
">\n\nThat’s like the point? recognizing the boundary and proceeding from there by RESPECTING the boundary because they are another person and not some masturbatory object. What you just said was a consensual interaction. The initial point was that there is no consensual sex without respecting the party that’s giving as a person.",
">\n\nSo... there's a concept of a moral hazard. \nThere's literally no way for an individual to be certain that their prostitute is not being coerced/trafficked. Even if there are some special circumstances where it might be unlikely, certainty is still impossible, and most people frequenting prostitutes are not in those special circumstances.\nSomeone using their services is therefore extremely likely to be comfortable with risking that they are unknowingly raping someone. \nGenerally speaking, people find that disgusting.",
">\n\nIf you eat chocolate (even the stuff with the fair trade sticker) then there's no guarantee that it hasn't come from slave farms which are not uncommon. If you eat chocolate throughout your life then you are almost definitely contributing to slavery. If you visit a prostitute regularly then the chance they're being exploited is anywhere from functioninally 0% to 100%. So why treat the John who might be discerning with scorn and not the chocolate eater who is a much safer bet in having contributed to coerced labour.",
">\n\nIt's worth trying to avoid those situations, but ultimately it's a very false equivalence to hold people responsible for the actions of others, vs. their own personal actions.\nWhen you buy chocolate, you're not actually holding a gun to a slave, someone else is. The right answer to that is to lobby for worker protections for imported goods, and to try to end involuntary servitude within your country as well. \nWhen you have sex with a trafficked person, you personally literally raped them. If you don't have good evidence to know they aren't trafficked, you're personally ok with the possibility you're going to personally rape them. \nBoth might be considered bad. But it's a false equivalence.\nAnd sure... if someone is paying someone for sex when they are personal friends with them, and interact with them outside of prostitution enough to personally know that they aren't being trafficked... and you're sure they aren't lying, scorning them more than at most some light ribbing isn't justified. It's not like \"sugar daddies\" aren't a thing as well. At the very least much less disapprobation would be appropriate.",
">\n\nIn both cases, there is a customer receiving a service provided by a potentially enslaved person. They are morally equivalent. It makes no sense to say “sure I bought the slavery chocolate, but you can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”",
">\n\n\nyou can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”\n\nThe slavers actions are distinct from the consumers' actions for most things. \nThis is an actual important difference when it comes to prostitution. \nIgnoring that fundamental difference doesn't make it go away, and it's entirely reasonable for someone to make that distinction.",
">\n\nThe slaver and consumer are different people who take different actions in the prostitution scenario. The consumer in both scenarios is taking the risk of being immoral. If I force you to be my slave that’s still immoral whether or not I put you to work in my brothel or mine or factory or fishing boat. And if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever, it’s equivalent.",
">\n\n\nAnd if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever , it’s equivalent.\n\nThis is where the false equivalence comes in. \nSomeone making products with slave labor is not renting out a slave to the consumer so that they consumer can force them to perform mining for the consumer. They are enslaving the labor to create a product, and selling the product. Products don't have rights to violate. The only person violating the rights of the slave is the slaver.\nSomeone trafficking a victim is renting out that victim so that the consumer can rape them.",
">\n\nIf the sex is only contractual to you? Why not just \"hook up.\" Why pay? You will never be able to guarantee they are not being trafficked. If they are, they are not going to tell you. I think the idea of money exchanging hands for sex is the why most have a problem. The idea that you are giving a woman money for sex has been historically seen as her being a whore. \nI am not saying she is. I am saying that from the time it first exchanged hands, that is what it was. Men who could not find a woman, paid a woman. Why do you want others to see it differently? Yes, there will be outliers that will enjoy the work. But those are going to be ones that, like the escort, chose it, and charge what they want. Not the typical street hookers on the corner with pimps to pay. \nProve they are not trafficked, they work for themselves, they are clean (of both drugs and diseases - because they are taking care of themselves and being safe), and that they are a sex worker because they enjoy the work or that that chose the work. Then, hey! Pay 'em and get to it!",
">\n\nI think it is morally unhealthy to normalize it. Even though you have to be an adult to smoke weed, we definitely see weed as a normal thing to do in moderation compared to a few decades ago. This is how we would see prostitution if it was normalized. And I think weed has a lot less complications than legalizing prostitution. A LOT!\nSex work online is a lot safer and requires a lot less mental issues to engage in and promote. But even then, I know some sex workers (online type), and they are scarred by the stuff they have seen when it comes to their job. They have told me stories that are extremely disturbing. These are women who just do stuff by themselves. Not working with a porn company and other people.\nAlso, sex has a huge reputation for being violent and demoralizing towards women in general. I'd assume those numbers would be much higher in men looking to pay for sex. You'd have to have extremely strict and tight regulations for this sort of thing, which would take the fun out of it for a lot of people. And even then, there would still be many mistakes that would happen before we find out all the regulations that are needed. And I don't think we could ever make it mentally and physically safe for women.\nNow, do I think it should be decriminalized for prostitutes? Definitely. I don't see them as disgusting. I feel quite bad for them. Most of them were trafficked at a young age. Do I see men wanting to pay for sex as disgusting? Not necessarily. It depends on the person and the situation. However, this isn't a simple issue where if we just \"stop judging people,\" everything will be fine.",
">\n\nDecriminalizing prostitution for both those selling and buying is demonstrably safer for prostitutes. If it is criminal for the buyer but not the seller, the buyer is often highly defensive and paranoid about the seller, specifically the possibility that they may be working with law enforcement. The buyer will often push to do it in a highly isolated setting as well. These things increase violence that sex workers face, and the averages go down in places where it is decriminalized to both buy and sell. If you have a designated work place for it and no one needs to be distrustful and worried about being arrested, that is the safest situation for all involved. \nWe may disagree with buying it for whatever moral reason, but if we choose to criminalize the purchase of it, we are prioritizing punishing behavior we morally disagree with over prioritizing the safety of those involved, which I can't get behind.",
">\n\nBut there are so many more facets to the safety of legalizing it for the buyer other than them being pushy or wanting to do it in a hidden area. If we legalized it, it still wouldn't really help any of the points I made or is even something that is so overwhelmingly an issue compared to the points I made.",
">\n\nSo long as we have to work to live, all jobs are coercive, even sex work. I’m skeptical that there can ever be a consensual exchange within our current economic context.",
">\n\nExactly , I get sex is intimate but if you are willing to view sex work as any other job , you should be willing to treat it as such",
">\n\nSex work has certain occupational hazards that cannot be regulated away. OSHA (in the US) dictates that a person cannot be subject to bodily fluids without proper PPE in the workplace, and often johns just need to pay more to not wear a condom. Imagine a construction site paying workers more to not wear a hard hat. The greater potential for bodily harm is intrinsic to the work, and it will always be unsafe.",
">\n\nTrue but this doesn't really answer my question",
">\n\nMy point is that treating it like any other job is not ethically possible due to hazardous conditions",
">\n\nThis is a bad take.\nI’d wager prostitution doesn’t even rank in the top ten dangerous jobs by capita.",
">\n\nThat really depends. A gas station cashier likely has a higher risk of being killed. But a quick Google shows sex workers are thirty times more likely to get Aids than the general population. They're also at ridiculously high rates of risk to their mental health. Ptsd is common. Also, yes, sitting at a counter in a gas station is technically dangerous. But it is different type of danger compared to someone fucking them in the ass while shoving a sock in their mouth and calling them a dirty whore. When this happens to a prostitute, since she isn't dead, then all good right?! :) Her job isn't dangerous, she's still alive! And they're really not paid much. Average pay for a sex scene in porn for a woman is around $600, for the guy it's like a hundred. For prostitution you're looking at a hundred to two hundred dollars. \nAlso, if you're in the us. Good luck affording health insurance as an independent contractor engaged in sex work.",
">\n\nI’m not exactly impressed with the American system so if you’re criticising Americans health system then fuck yeah more power to you.\nYou raise fantastic points about there being non lethal dangers in sex work that are worth considering and harder to measure.\nThat being said, sit for a while and think about whether you think that sex workers are in a job so dangerous that it deserves its own category and shouldn’t even be allowed. (This is what the commenter I was responding to was claiming)\nI’m comfortable I’d ban lumberjack as a profession long before I considered banning prostitution based on relative level of danger and conditions.\nI don’t have a specific statistic but soldiers at an educated guess would probably be more likely to experience danger and mental issues but the commenter I responded to probably never thought for one second about banning soldiers on that basis.\nIt’s clear bias, being rationalised as something it isn’t.",
">\n\nIt's decriminalised where I live, which means women can arrange anything themselves. So you can have a strip club with a \"hotel\" above it. Basically 100% of the workers are foreign, from places like Ukraine. Russia, Moldova, Romania. Etc. It's a strange aspect which isn't often brought up. But\"legalizing \" almost always results on foreign workers undercutting any local workforce. How can a 26 year old American girl from the burbs compete with an 18 year Thai girl? One is fine doing work at basically the rates of a full time McDonald's employee, while the other isn't. And of course, that breeds the type of people you'd imagine running the business. Even in places like Amsterdam, where there's tons of regulation, you get the same trafficking you see anywhere else.\nSo morally. I've got zero problem. But I've just never seen a model that can actually ensure safety for everyone involved.",
">\n\nWell culture is everything isn't it? Of there wasn't so much sex tourism from places that have prostitution illegal there would probably be less demand wouldn't there? Less demand would make the whole industry safer imo due to the loss of money driving the search for foreign market girls\nLike imagine the whole world has a brothel just down the block. Does that make it more safe just by sheer volume and normality?",
">\n\nFirstly, i'm not religious, i'm sex-positive and the sex lives of strangers rarely concerns me. I don't think paying for these services makes you a \"bad\" person, nor a \"disgusting\" one.. but for me, it would affect your desirability to me as a partner. To me attraction is a big thing, and i'll be honest, I see it as kind of lame. Not morally corrupt but just ...desperate. \nI would want my partner to be someone that women wanted to have sex with, not the man that they had sex with as a purely profitable transaction. Whilst it's consensual, when you involve money or a benefit other than sex, the line slightly blurs, and I find it becomes icky. \nIt's not even that I think my partner should only have had strictly intimate and personable relations... but the question does spring to mind of \"is sex that has been paid for truly consensual? can you guarantee that?\" Even popular Pornstars who previously agreed to do porn and made careers out of it have stories where they later felt disgusted by what they've had to do but were so enamored by the money, they went through with it. Sex workers will ALWAYS sell a positive image to their clients, part of their job is to make you feel desired, but you never truly know the reality. \nAll in all, it can be seen as \"bad\" or \"disgusting\" because monetary rewards affects the lines of purely consensual sex. The same way it can be icky for a boss to have sex with the intern, the same way directors have sex with actresses that want to star in their movies, and the same way rockstars have sex with their fans. Doesn't make 'em rapists, but it's why people won't look at it as respectable.",
">\n\nyou aren’t sex positive if you think paying for sex is desperate.\ndoes paying for alcohol mean you’re desperate for happiness? some people want to have fun so they buy drinks, others find more fun in sex. as long as sex work is consensual and not the result of pimping or some other form of coercion then I don’t see any harm or how it would be desperate.\nthere are tangible benefits to buying sex vs finding it “naturally” that i don’t think you’re considering. \nwith sex workers you’re safer and don’t have to worry about pregnancy, theft, psychotic women, and other risks that come from random hookups with strangers or even casual dating. there’s also the whole “i don’t need to put time and effort into finding and flirting with someone” when it can be on demand. yea making food at home is usually cheaper and better tasting than takeout but sometimes you’re lazy and want a pizza delivered.",
">\n\nI’m generally sex positive to consensual sex between people. However, everything falls on a spectrum and I don’t think you have to have a certain view on every avenue to be as such. Much like you can love your job, your country or your friends but that doesn’t mean you can’t provide any forms of criticism nor must you love EVERY aspect of these things. \nI have no disdain for people who hook up on dating apps, clubs, attend sex parties etc. I will always believe sex workers should have right to practice and do so in a safe environment. I also wouldn’t stop their client base either, it’s not my business, but there are ethical implications and I’ve said my view from the perspective of my partner which naturally i hold to a more personable standard. I wouldn’t want to be with someone who puts their sexual desires above the possible implications involved in sex work. \nI do want to touch on your point that as long as it’s not coerced or forced, it’s okay. The ethical implication behind this is that when you involve money, this is not guaranteed. Not all clients will take the time to research the background and extra people involved behind the scenes. The women with pimps and who are trafficked won’t spill those beans to you. Again, there will always be exceptions to the rule. \nI understand that sex work is convenient to many but my perception is not swayed by the mere idea that paying for sex means you get to avoid having to flirt with women. Much like I can understand why people have no choice to purchase fast fashion and I’ll understand the reasoning but that does not mean I should ignore the child labour and poor conditions that make this possible. \nAll in all, I won’t stop you but I’m going to think it’s kinda lame. You can wear an item of clothing, I’ll defend you to wear that clothing and I won’t make you feel bad for wearing it.. but I may not like it myself.",
">\n\nReading your posts made me think of a bird preening it's feathers to attract a mate. I thought it was just you being obtuse untill you brought fashion into this lol\nYou really are just a pair of eyes arnt you. No complexity attached. \"I saw it in the window so I bought it! I didn't even care that it was 500$ I just wanted it because the other girls were eyeing it down and I just HAD to have it💅\"",
">\n\nI genuinely have no idea what you’re trying to convey. The topic of fashion was merely to represent that there are often complexities and nuance. So yes, I can be sex positive but I don’t necessarily have to agree with all the variances within the to topic of sex. \nI assume I’ve hit a nerve for your style of response.",
">\n\nNot sure about everywhere else but in America being as prostitution is illegal a lot of the situations the workers are in are really sad, depressing and predatory. If you take a look at the book “Pimp” by ice berg slim for example a lot of the industry isn’t the ideal some just wants to make money like any other job and the pimp is just a bodyguard/manger,\nA lot of it involves a tone of manipulation and dependency and when you add on the ones where safe sex isn’t a priority and the literal hundreds of partners you engage with in such a short time it all comes off as kinda gross.",
">\n\nSex, when a service, is not the same as any other service. There is a difference between driving a person somewhere in a taxi and having your face fucked and ejaculated on by a stranger. As many have stated before and as you can see in 99% of porn is that sex as a service is usually degrading towards women. Just look at the front page of any given porn site. Most of it is not, in any way, esteeming of the women participating. Look at goddamn blowjob videos. The women are not giving a blowjob - they are getting their face fucked. Extra points if they have to gag and be obviously physically uncomfortable and struggling to breathe. Dude it is just not the same as someone operating a forklift or making flower arrangements. Most of it is degrading and the more degrading the more klicks - the more people who frequent porn sites like it. And it's the same with prostitution. Read about what these women have experienced. It is plain awful. Sure if you are talking about a utopia where you can be 100% sure the prostitutes are there on their own terms and if every single customer is a loving, caring, gentle person taking care of the sex workers needs as much as their own - then yes, there would not be anything wrong with it. But that is just not how it is.\nHow hard is it, even in a healthy loving relationship, to always have both partners perfectly satisfied and met their needs sexually?\nSex is as intimate as human interaction can get and buying that from someone is taking all incentive away to treat the other person as good as you would treat a partner who you love and/or actively want to enjoy the time with you.\nAnd that is what disgusts people about people who frequent prostitutes. The possibility of being a person who, as long as they pay for something or feel like they've done their dues, doesn't give a shit about what the person on the other end is experiencing.\nedit: Because of other comments from OP I accused them of debating rather than discussing and suggested if they were seeking moral validation for what they do, which in itself was not part of a discussion really. I deleted that part because it serves no neutral purpose.",
">\n\nWell in this context not special but very very different, in the way that it is way more intimate, there's actually a part of ones body entering the others. There is exchange of bodily fluids. Those services are different from each other the same way as a massage is different to shoving items across a scanner, just times ten. One is naked, one experiences pleasure (or great pain) and one is not using their body to do something, they are having their body be used by someone else. That can leave physical bruises and mental scars because one is extremely vulnerable in the act.",
">\n\nMy view on it is that the act in itself is not wrong for anybody involved, but the character implication is what causes it to be met with disgust by some.\nIf you have money and you pay for sex from somebody who is willing, then it's no problem, but the issue comes when you delve into why they might be paying for sex.\nMany people experience sex in a consensual environment with a person who desires sex with them, and no money is involved. Many would view this as a very normal and important part of life.\nThe question that comes up subconsciously and/or consciously is \"why does this person need to pay for sex?\"\nIt could be that they have undeveloped social skills and this coild be deemed as a negative trait that needs to be worked on.\nAnother reason could be an atypically high sex drive, which could also be perceived as sex addiction.\nThese are not unlikely reasons for a person to pay a sex worker for sex and a judgement could be made before understanding more that they possess These sorts of traits that people simply have the desire to avoid.",
">\n\nThis is the correct answer. \nThe reason people look down on people who hire hookers has nothing to do with sex trafficking, or what really qualifies as consent, or any of the other comments in this thread. I think a good example is your iPhone. It is basically made with slave labor, but nobody really gives a shit. They just happily use their phone. If they actually did give a shit, they wouldn't buy iPhones. Also, prostitution has been around basically since the beginning of time. It has always been a part of human relationships and always will be.\nFor better or worse, the reason people look down on people who hire hookers is that it implies you are deficient in some way. If you were better looking or had better social skills or had more control over your base urges you would not need to hire a hooker. \nPersonally, I look at it like a wheelchair. I dont need a wheelchair and I really hope I never need one, but it is not fair (and downright cruel) for me to look down on someone who does use one. Are they deficient in some way? Yes. They can't walk. Do they deserve admonishment or judgement? No. Not at all.",
">\n\nYou're not paying too have sex with a prostitute. You're paying to use her body as a masturbatory aid.\nProstitution reduces women to being commodities, objects, things. Every other job, you're providing a skill to produce or exchange goods and services. Prostitution, the woman is the thing you're purchasing. The women are the commodities, they're not viewed as humen, they're viewed as consumable goods.",
">\n\nJust like almost every other Job, and any other form of sex work like strippers, onlyfans model , some e girl, girls who post theist traps on social media, so what makes those empowering and not this",
">\n\nStrippers, only fans, e-girls are not empowering. It's gross. When it comes down to it, they're sluts. And they're no better than their fuck-boy counterparts.",
">\n\nOK fair so the difference in worldview is what makes argumen unsound to you !delta",
">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/19jals80 (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nYou just can never know for sure whether the sex worker is being trafficked or not. You can't assume they'd tell you the truth if you asked. They might endanger themselves by telling you the truth. The sex worker wants money, and is willing to have some sexual contact with you in order to get the money. But fundamentally, they're permitting you to do something to their body that they do not want in and of itself. Therefore, their consent is dubious and conditional upon your payment. To me, that's not sufficient consent. I want someone I'm having sex with to genuinely, enthusiastically want to have sex with me for the sole purpose of enjoying sex with me. I don't want to use people as means to ends, and I don't want to be used as a means to anyone else's ends.\nI don't morally disapprove of sex work. I just wouldn't support it because it doesn't provide a good or service that interests me. I want actual human connection, which is something money cannot buy. I do morally disapprove of a system that drives people into sex work to get by or get ahead.",
">\n\n\nYou just can never know for sure whether the sex worker is being trafficked or not. \n\nThis argument can be made for any form of low-skilled labor.\nThere is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that sex work uses slavery more often than say construction work or weaving baskets.\nYour argument applies just as easily to buying a shoe, because it could have been constructed by slaves.",
">\n\nYour whataboutism does nothing to resolve the moral question.",
">\n\n“whataboutism” is the new trendy defence for people who've been shown a reductiō ad absurdum it seems.\nI'm showing that your argument can just as easily be used to argue the absurd, and that therefore it can't hold much water. Unless one were to believe in the absurd, and would believe that there is a problem with buying shoes or about any product.",
">\n\nAgain, none of what you've said addresses the moral dilemma in question. Moral questions can't be hand-waved away with empty rhetorical devices. This is still a question of how our choices impact the lives and well-being of others. The fact that we live in a world run by greed does not alleviate the moral burden of making this decision responsibly.",
">\n\nI don't think there is a solid \" yes \" or \" no \" answer to this question. There are so many ( but if's) that it's hard to give more than just an opinion.\n\n\nSpeaking from a Christian perspective, morally, yeah, it's wrong. Because sex is seen as something that's sacred that should be shared between 2 consenting married adults. \n\n\nBut if a woman isn't being forced in any type of way, shape, or form and she simply enjoys cash & realized opening her legs to buyers can get her lots of cash, that's her business. Not anyone else's.",
">\n\nTrying to justify yourself?",
">\n\nWhat is unjustifiable here?",
">\n\nI recently visited one. Frankly I just sought for intimacy. I asked them to kiss me and just take it slow. Because that’s what I miss in my life: intimacy.\nI noticed a lot of people have an opinion on it. I can never tell my parents nor my friends. You can only blame me to be socially maladjusted. I have tried all things I could in dating beforehand and frankly it didn’t work.\nSo… I think it’s something in my character to seek for a prostitute. I don’t think it should be condemned because everyone seeks what I am seeking. Only difference is some people can find it over Tinder or in their social circles, and I have to pay for it. Sorry, I wish it was different but it isn’t.",
">\n\nInteresting post. Thanks.\nWhat would you see that would make you change your mind?\n\nsex is considered intimate and special to some people \n\nWhat if sex is objectively intimate and special, as opposed to “some people” finding it subjectively intimate and special? Would that change your mind?",
">\n\nI think in context of religion and this kind of view yes but if you lack this, you are Into causal sex ,and support sex work I don't get it",
">\n\nThanks for the response.\nLet’s back up…I think we are missing each other. The sub is called r/changemyview, so I first want to understand your view and then have you tell me what would change it. Alternatively, if nothing would change it, I would like to know that, too.\nI think your argument is the following:\nP1: Moral oppobrium is an appropriate response only to moral failures.\nP2: There is no moral aspect to a consensual sex act.\nC1: Therefore, moral oppobrium is not appropriate for (uncoerced) sex workers and their patrons.\nDo I have that right? If not, please correct me.",
">\n\nYou do",
">\n\nWhat about how awfully the punters treat the women who work in prostitution, as this article (and many others) reveals? Would you not look down on these men because of this?",
">\n\nI would but not all men who hire sex workers do this , also this is not a specifically sex worker problem , it can happen even in the confines of a relationship , do you also look down on men who enter relationships with women or just the men who are abusive because it also applies in the cases of sex work porn is part of sex work\nSome of the other issues come with the job which like it or not the one who aren't trafficked consent to it , like the idea that they don't get hired for other jobs , then things like racism , sexual harassment violence , addiction being a single mom has nothing to do with sex work",
">\n\nIt's seen as a character flaw because people are expected to suppress their need for sex to some extent until they find an actual romantic partner. The fact that they can't do that shows they don't care about the expectation to do so and/or are too focused on getting sex to care."
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Just like anybody else who works 8 hours for low pay. I didn't know sex was such a horrible thing, or is it just taboo?
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"/u/Due-Lie-8710 (OP) has awarded 7 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nThere's a song I like that speaks on this fairly poetically, so I'd like to start by just directly quoting it:\n\nSo when you bled on the bed as you fed those expectations, as a whore and not a human, you embraced with hesitation the very parameters of all you can be. Not a mother, not an aunt, not a sister who's not subdued. Because dignity's not physical, and your flesh means more than you.\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.",
">\n\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.\n\nFirst of all if you aren't trafficked it is just like another job, as for you both being seen as human , make sense hey aren't there to befriend to have sex , you are performing a service, it's like you watching football or a movie, you only see them as footballers ot actors , half of the time they don't care about their personal life, there are some jobs that prevent you from getting any high paying jobs or jobs that involve care , as for the people purchasing it , if you can't purchase it then why should they sell it , you don't actually support sex work, because that would mean accepting the consumer base ad well as the supplier",
">\n\nThat’s a really big if though, sex work isn’t exactly an industry where you will know for sure if the service you’re getting is consensual. individuals who are victims of sexual trafficking, coercion, or just life circumstance aren’t likely to just tell their “customers” if it isn’t consensual. they could endanger themselves or not be aware that they can say something. \nSeeing someone as an object vs seeing them as an individual with a job aren’t the same though? yes we recognize actors and football players by their career choice and how well they are at it, but they’re still people at the end of the day? that’s why they have fanbases, interviews, paparazzi, popularity on social media, movie adaptions of their life exist—people are interested in more than them just doing their job.\nA persons job is no reason to suddenly strip them of their humanity and rights granted them for being such, that kind of mentality is morally skewed and why a lot of people would not support sex work. plus you can’t say it makes sense for sex workers to be see as commodities only and then believe sex work will be consensual. the whole consent part comes from recognizing that this is another person who has their own boundaries and limits beyond just what you want.",
">\n\nokay, that’s a plumber and not a person you’re having sex with. unlike plumbing which is clean cut, sex can include multiple aspects of different kinks and fetishes. You can’t expect a sex worker to be okay with say participating in rape play, anal, scat, and a mirage of other kinks simply because they agreed to sex. Sex is not clean cut, there is more to it. There has to be a boundary somewhere, this is another person body not a pipe.",
">\n\nThat’s like the point? recognizing the boundary and proceeding from there by RESPECTING the boundary because they are another person and not some masturbatory object. What you just said was a consensual interaction. The initial point was that there is no consensual sex without respecting the party that’s giving as a person.",
">\n\nSo... there's a concept of a moral hazard. \nThere's literally no way for an individual to be certain that their prostitute is not being coerced/trafficked. Even if there are some special circumstances where it might be unlikely, certainty is still impossible, and most people frequenting prostitutes are not in those special circumstances.\nSomeone using their services is therefore extremely likely to be comfortable with risking that they are unknowingly raping someone. \nGenerally speaking, people find that disgusting.",
">\n\nIf you eat chocolate (even the stuff with the fair trade sticker) then there's no guarantee that it hasn't come from slave farms which are not uncommon. If you eat chocolate throughout your life then you are almost definitely contributing to slavery. If you visit a prostitute regularly then the chance they're being exploited is anywhere from functioninally 0% to 100%. So why treat the John who might be discerning with scorn and not the chocolate eater who is a much safer bet in having contributed to coerced labour.",
">\n\nIt's worth trying to avoid those situations, but ultimately it's a very false equivalence to hold people responsible for the actions of others, vs. their own personal actions.\nWhen you buy chocolate, you're not actually holding a gun to a slave, someone else is. The right answer to that is to lobby for worker protections for imported goods, and to try to end involuntary servitude within your country as well. \nWhen you have sex with a trafficked person, you personally literally raped them. If you don't have good evidence to know they aren't trafficked, you're personally ok with the possibility you're going to personally rape them. \nBoth might be considered bad. But it's a false equivalence.\nAnd sure... if someone is paying someone for sex when they are personal friends with them, and interact with them outside of prostitution enough to personally know that they aren't being trafficked... and you're sure they aren't lying, scorning them more than at most some light ribbing isn't justified. It's not like \"sugar daddies\" aren't a thing as well. At the very least much less disapprobation would be appropriate.",
">\n\nIn both cases, there is a customer receiving a service provided by a potentially enslaved person. They are morally equivalent. It makes no sense to say “sure I bought the slavery chocolate, but you can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”",
">\n\n\nyou can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”\n\nThe slavers actions are distinct from the consumers' actions for most things. \nThis is an actual important difference when it comes to prostitution. \nIgnoring that fundamental difference doesn't make it go away, and it's entirely reasonable for someone to make that distinction.",
">\n\nThe slaver and consumer are different people who take different actions in the prostitution scenario. The consumer in both scenarios is taking the risk of being immoral. If I force you to be my slave that’s still immoral whether or not I put you to work in my brothel or mine or factory or fishing boat. And if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever, it’s equivalent.",
">\n\n\nAnd if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever , it’s equivalent.\n\nThis is where the false equivalence comes in. \nSomeone making products with slave labor is not renting out a slave to the consumer so that they consumer can force them to perform mining for the consumer. They are enslaving the labor to create a product, and selling the product. Products don't have rights to violate. The only person violating the rights of the slave is the slaver.\nSomeone trafficking a victim is renting out that victim so that the consumer can rape them.",
">\n\nIf the sex is only contractual to you? Why not just \"hook up.\" Why pay? You will never be able to guarantee they are not being trafficked. If they are, they are not going to tell you. I think the idea of money exchanging hands for sex is the why most have a problem. The idea that you are giving a woman money for sex has been historically seen as her being a whore. \nI am not saying she is. I am saying that from the time it first exchanged hands, that is what it was. Men who could not find a woman, paid a woman. Why do you want others to see it differently? Yes, there will be outliers that will enjoy the work. But those are going to be ones that, like the escort, chose it, and charge what they want. Not the typical street hookers on the corner with pimps to pay. \nProve they are not trafficked, they work for themselves, they are clean (of both drugs and diseases - because they are taking care of themselves and being safe), and that they are a sex worker because they enjoy the work or that that chose the work. Then, hey! Pay 'em and get to it!",
">\n\nI think it is morally unhealthy to normalize it. Even though you have to be an adult to smoke weed, we definitely see weed as a normal thing to do in moderation compared to a few decades ago. This is how we would see prostitution if it was normalized. And I think weed has a lot less complications than legalizing prostitution. A LOT!\nSex work online is a lot safer and requires a lot less mental issues to engage in and promote. But even then, I know some sex workers (online type), and they are scarred by the stuff they have seen when it comes to their job. They have told me stories that are extremely disturbing. These are women who just do stuff by themselves. Not working with a porn company and other people.\nAlso, sex has a huge reputation for being violent and demoralizing towards women in general. I'd assume those numbers would be much higher in men looking to pay for sex. You'd have to have extremely strict and tight regulations for this sort of thing, which would take the fun out of it for a lot of people. And even then, there would still be many mistakes that would happen before we find out all the regulations that are needed. And I don't think we could ever make it mentally and physically safe for women.\nNow, do I think it should be decriminalized for prostitutes? Definitely. I don't see them as disgusting. I feel quite bad for them. Most of them were trafficked at a young age. Do I see men wanting to pay for sex as disgusting? Not necessarily. It depends on the person and the situation. However, this isn't a simple issue where if we just \"stop judging people,\" everything will be fine.",
">\n\nDecriminalizing prostitution for both those selling and buying is demonstrably safer for prostitutes. If it is criminal for the buyer but not the seller, the buyer is often highly defensive and paranoid about the seller, specifically the possibility that they may be working with law enforcement. The buyer will often push to do it in a highly isolated setting as well. These things increase violence that sex workers face, and the averages go down in places where it is decriminalized to both buy and sell. If you have a designated work place for it and no one needs to be distrustful and worried about being arrested, that is the safest situation for all involved. \nWe may disagree with buying it for whatever moral reason, but if we choose to criminalize the purchase of it, we are prioritizing punishing behavior we morally disagree with over prioritizing the safety of those involved, which I can't get behind.",
">\n\nBut there are so many more facets to the safety of legalizing it for the buyer other than them being pushy or wanting to do it in a hidden area. If we legalized it, it still wouldn't really help any of the points I made or is even something that is so overwhelmingly an issue compared to the points I made.",
">\n\nSo long as we have to work to live, all jobs are coercive, even sex work. I’m skeptical that there can ever be a consensual exchange within our current economic context.",
">\n\nExactly , I get sex is intimate but if you are willing to view sex work as any other job , you should be willing to treat it as such",
">\n\nSex work has certain occupational hazards that cannot be regulated away. OSHA (in the US) dictates that a person cannot be subject to bodily fluids without proper PPE in the workplace, and often johns just need to pay more to not wear a condom. Imagine a construction site paying workers more to not wear a hard hat. The greater potential for bodily harm is intrinsic to the work, and it will always be unsafe.",
">\n\nTrue but this doesn't really answer my question",
">\n\nMy point is that treating it like any other job is not ethically possible due to hazardous conditions",
">\n\nThis is a bad take.\nI’d wager prostitution doesn’t even rank in the top ten dangerous jobs by capita.",
">\n\nThat really depends. A gas station cashier likely has a higher risk of being killed. But a quick Google shows sex workers are thirty times more likely to get Aids than the general population. They're also at ridiculously high rates of risk to their mental health. Ptsd is common. Also, yes, sitting at a counter in a gas station is technically dangerous. But it is different type of danger compared to someone fucking them in the ass while shoving a sock in their mouth and calling them a dirty whore. When this happens to a prostitute, since she isn't dead, then all good right?! :) Her job isn't dangerous, she's still alive! And they're really not paid much. Average pay for a sex scene in porn for a woman is around $600, for the guy it's like a hundred. For prostitution you're looking at a hundred to two hundred dollars. \nAlso, if you're in the us. Good luck affording health insurance as an independent contractor engaged in sex work.",
">\n\nI’m not exactly impressed with the American system so if you’re criticising Americans health system then fuck yeah more power to you.\nYou raise fantastic points about there being non lethal dangers in sex work that are worth considering and harder to measure.\nThat being said, sit for a while and think about whether you think that sex workers are in a job so dangerous that it deserves its own category and shouldn’t even be allowed. (This is what the commenter I was responding to was claiming)\nI’m comfortable I’d ban lumberjack as a profession long before I considered banning prostitution based on relative level of danger and conditions.\nI don’t have a specific statistic but soldiers at an educated guess would probably be more likely to experience danger and mental issues but the commenter I responded to probably never thought for one second about banning soldiers on that basis.\nIt’s clear bias, being rationalised as something it isn’t.",
">\n\nIt's decriminalised where I live, which means women can arrange anything themselves. So you can have a strip club with a \"hotel\" above it. Basically 100% of the workers are foreign, from places like Ukraine. Russia, Moldova, Romania. Etc. It's a strange aspect which isn't often brought up. But\"legalizing \" almost always results on foreign workers undercutting any local workforce. How can a 26 year old American girl from the burbs compete with an 18 year Thai girl? One is fine doing work at basically the rates of a full time McDonald's employee, while the other isn't. And of course, that breeds the type of people you'd imagine running the business. Even in places like Amsterdam, where there's tons of regulation, you get the same trafficking you see anywhere else.\nSo morally. I've got zero problem. But I've just never seen a model that can actually ensure safety for everyone involved.",
">\n\nWell culture is everything isn't it? Of there wasn't so much sex tourism from places that have prostitution illegal there would probably be less demand wouldn't there? Less demand would make the whole industry safer imo due to the loss of money driving the search for foreign market girls\nLike imagine the whole world has a brothel just down the block. Does that make it more safe just by sheer volume and normality?",
">\n\nFirstly, i'm not religious, i'm sex-positive and the sex lives of strangers rarely concerns me. I don't think paying for these services makes you a \"bad\" person, nor a \"disgusting\" one.. but for me, it would affect your desirability to me as a partner. To me attraction is a big thing, and i'll be honest, I see it as kind of lame. Not morally corrupt but just ...desperate. \nI would want my partner to be someone that women wanted to have sex with, not the man that they had sex with as a purely profitable transaction. Whilst it's consensual, when you involve money or a benefit other than sex, the line slightly blurs, and I find it becomes icky. \nIt's not even that I think my partner should only have had strictly intimate and personable relations... but the question does spring to mind of \"is sex that has been paid for truly consensual? can you guarantee that?\" Even popular Pornstars who previously agreed to do porn and made careers out of it have stories where they later felt disgusted by what they've had to do but were so enamored by the money, they went through with it. Sex workers will ALWAYS sell a positive image to their clients, part of their job is to make you feel desired, but you never truly know the reality. \nAll in all, it can be seen as \"bad\" or \"disgusting\" because monetary rewards affects the lines of purely consensual sex. The same way it can be icky for a boss to have sex with the intern, the same way directors have sex with actresses that want to star in their movies, and the same way rockstars have sex with their fans. Doesn't make 'em rapists, but it's why people won't look at it as respectable.",
">\n\nyou aren’t sex positive if you think paying for sex is desperate.\ndoes paying for alcohol mean you’re desperate for happiness? some people want to have fun so they buy drinks, others find more fun in sex. as long as sex work is consensual and not the result of pimping or some other form of coercion then I don’t see any harm or how it would be desperate.\nthere are tangible benefits to buying sex vs finding it “naturally” that i don’t think you’re considering. \nwith sex workers you’re safer and don’t have to worry about pregnancy, theft, psychotic women, and other risks that come from random hookups with strangers or even casual dating. there’s also the whole “i don’t need to put time and effort into finding and flirting with someone” when it can be on demand. yea making food at home is usually cheaper and better tasting than takeout but sometimes you’re lazy and want a pizza delivered.",
">\n\nI’m generally sex positive to consensual sex between people. However, everything falls on a spectrum and I don’t think you have to have a certain view on every avenue to be as such. Much like you can love your job, your country or your friends but that doesn’t mean you can’t provide any forms of criticism nor must you love EVERY aspect of these things. \nI have no disdain for people who hook up on dating apps, clubs, attend sex parties etc. I will always believe sex workers should have right to practice and do so in a safe environment. I also wouldn’t stop their client base either, it’s not my business, but there are ethical implications and I’ve said my view from the perspective of my partner which naturally i hold to a more personable standard. I wouldn’t want to be with someone who puts their sexual desires above the possible implications involved in sex work. \nI do want to touch on your point that as long as it’s not coerced or forced, it’s okay. The ethical implication behind this is that when you involve money, this is not guaranteed. Not all clients will take the time to research the background and extra people involved behind the scenes. The women with pimps and who are trafficked won’t spill those beans to you. Again, there will always be exceptions to the rule. \nI understand that sex work is convenient to many but my perception is not swayed by the mere idea that paying for sex means you get to avoid having to flirt with women. Much like I can understand why people have no choice to purchase fast fashion and I’ll understand the reasoning but that does not mean I should ignore the child labour and poor conditions that make this possible. \nAll in all, I won’t stop you but I’m going to think it’s kinda lame. You can wear an item of clothing, I’ll defend you to wear that clothing and I won’t make you feel bad for wearing it.. but I may not like it myself.",
">\n\nReading your posts made me think of a bird preening it's feathers to attract a mate. I thought it was just you being obtuse untill you brought fashion into this lol\nYou really are just a pair of eyes arnt you. No complexity attached. \"I saw it in the window so I bought it! I didn't even care that it was 500$ I just wanted it because the other girls were eyeing it down and I just HAD to have it💅\"",
">\n\nI genuinely have no idea what you’re trying to convey. The topic of fashion was merely to represent that there are often complexities and nuance. So yes, I can be sex positive but I don’t necessarily have to agree with all the variances within the to topic of sex. \nI assume I’ve hit a nerve for your style of response.",
">\n\nNot sure about everywhere else but in America being as prostitution is illegal a lot of the situations the workers are in are really sad, depressing and predatory. If you take a look at the book “Pimp” by ice berg slim for example a lot of the industry isn’t the ideal some just wants to make money like any other job and the pimp is just a bodyguard/manger,\nA lot of it involves a tone of manipulation and dependency and when you add on the ones where safe sex isn’t a priority and the literal hundreds of partners you engage with in such a short time it all comes off as kinda gross.",
">\n\nSex, when a service, is not the same as any other service. There is a difference between driving a person somewhere in a taxi and having your face fucked and ejaculated on by a stranger. As many have stated before and as you can see in 99% of porn is that sex as a service is usually degrading towards women. Just look at the front page of any given porn site. Most of it is not, in any way, esteeming of the women participating. Look at goddamn blowjob videos. The women are not giving a blowjob - they are getting their face fucked. Extra points if they have to gag and be obviously physically uncomfortable and struggling to breathe. Dude it is just not the same as someone operating a forklift or making flower arrangements. Most of it is degrading and the more degrading the more klicks - the more people who frequent porn sites like it. And it's the same with prostitution. Read about what these women have experienced. It is plain awful. Sure if you are talking about a utopia where you can be 100% sure the prostitutes are there on their own terms and if every single customer is a loving, caring, gentle person taking care of the sex workers needs as much as their own - then yes, there would not be anything wrong with it. But that is just not how it is.\nHow hard is it, even in a healthy loving relationship, to always have both partners perfectly satisfied and met their needs sexually?\nSex is as intimate as human interaction can get and buying that from someone is taking all incentive away to treat the other person as good as you would treat a partner who you love and/or actively want to enjoy the time with you.\nAnd that is what disgusts people about people who frequent prostitutes. The possibility of being a person who, as long as they pay for something or feel like they've done their dues, doesn't give a shit about what the person on the other end is experiencing.\nedit: Because of other comments from OP I accused them of debating rather than discussing and suggested if they were seeking moral validation for what they do, which in itself was not part of a discussion really. I deleted that part because it serves no neutral purpose.",
">\n\nWell in this context not special but very very different, in the way that it is way more intimate, there's actually a part of ones body entering the others. There is exchange of bodily fluids. Those services are different from each other the same way as a massage is different to shoving items across a scanner, just times ten. One is naked, one experiences pleasure (or great pain) and one is not using their body to do something, they are having their body be used by someone else. That can leave physical bruises and mental scars because one is extremely vulnerable in the act.",
">\n\nMy view on it is that the act in itself is not wrong for anybody involved, but the character implication is what causes it to be met with disgust by some.\nIf you have money and you pay for sex from somebody who is willing, then it's no problem, but the issue comes when you delve into why they might be paying for sex.\nMany people experience sex in a consensual environment with a person who desires sex with them, and no money is involved. Many would view this as a very normal and important part of life.\nThe question that comes up subconsciously and/or consciously is \"why does this person need to pay for sex?\"\nIt could be that they have undeveloped social skills and this coild be deemed as a negative trait that needs to be worked on.\nAnother reason could be an atypically high sex drive, which could also be perceived as sex addiction.\nThese are not unlikely reasons for a person to pay a sex worker for sex and a judgement could be made before understanding more that they possess These sorts of traits that people simply have the desire to avoid.",
">\n\nThis is the correct answer. \nThe reason people look down on people who hire hookers has nothing to do with sex trafficking, or what really qualifies as consent, or any of the other comments in this thread. I think a good example is your iPhone. It is basically made with slave labor, but nobody really gives a shit. They just happily use their phone. If they actually did give a shit, they wouldn't buy iPhones. Also, prostitution has been around basically since the beginning of time. It has always been a part of human relationships and always will be.\nFor better or worse, the reason people look down on people who hire hookers is that it implies you are deficient in some way. If you were better looking or had better social skills or had more control over your base urges you would not need to hire a hooker. \nPersonally, I look at it like a wheelchair. I dont need a wheelchair and I really hope I never need one, but it is not fair (and downright cruel) for me to look down on someone who does use one. Are they deficient in some way? Yes. They can't walk. Do they deserve admonishment or judgement? No. Not at all.",
">\n\nYou're not paying too have sex with a prostitute. You're paying to use her body as a masturbatory aid.\nProstitution reduces women to being commodities, objects, things. Every other job, you're providing a skill to produce or exchange goods and services. Prostitution, the woman is the thing you're purchasing. The women are the commodities, they're not viewed as humen, they're viewed as consumable goods.",
">\n\nJust like almost every other Job, and any other form of sex work like strippers, onlyfans model , some e girl, girls who post theist traps on social media, so what makes those empowering and not this",
">\n\nStrippers, only fans, e-girls are not empowering. It's gross. When it comes down to it, they're sluts. And they're no better than their fuck-boy counterparts.",
">\n\nOK fair so the difference in worldview is what makes argumen unsound to you !delta",
">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/19jals80 (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nYou just can never know for sure whether the sex worker is being trafficked or not. You can't assume they'd tell you the truth if you asked. They might endanger themselves by telling you the truth. The sex worker wants money, and is willing to have some sexual contact with you in order to get the money. But fundamentally, they're permitting you to do something to their body that they do not want in and of itself. Therefore, their consent is dubious and conditional upon your payment. To me, that's not sufficient consent. I want someone I'm having sex with to genuinely, enthusiastically want to have sex with me for the sole purpose of enjoying sex with me. I don't want to use people as means to ends, and I don't want to be used as a means to anyone else's ends.\nI don't morally disapprove of sex work. I just wouldn't support it because it doesn't provide a good or service that interests me. I want actual human connection, which is something money cannot buy. I do morally disapprove of a system that drives people into sex work to get by or get ahead.",
">\n\n\nYou just can never know for sure whether the sex worker is being trafficked or not. \n\nThis argument can be made for any form of low-skilled labor.\nThere is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that sex work uses slavery more often than say construction work or weaving baskets.\nYour argument applies just as easily to buying a shoe, because it could have been constructed by slaves.",
">\n\nYour whataboutism does nothing to resolve the moral question.",
">\n\n“whataboutism” is the new trendy defence for people who've been shown a reductiō ad absurdum it seems.\nI'm showing that your argument can just as easily be used to argue the absurd, and that therefore it can't hold much water. Unless one were to believe in the absurd, and would believe that there is a problem with buying shoes or about any product.",
">\n\nAgain, none of what you've said addresses the moral dilemma in question. Moral questions can't be hand-waved away with empty rhetorical devices. This is still a question of how our choices impact the lives and well-being of others. The fact that we live in a world run by greed does not alleviate the moral burden of making this decision responsibly.",
">\n\nI don't think there is a solid \" yes \" or \" no \" answer to this question. There are so many ( but if's) that it's hard to give more than just an opinion.\n\n\nSpeaking from a Christian perspective, morally, yeah, it's wrong. Because sex is seen as something that's sacred that should be shared between 2 consenting married adults. \n\n\nBut if a woman isn't being forced in any type of way, shape, or form and she simply enjoys cash & realized opening her legs to buyers can get her lots of cash, that's her business. Not anyone else's.",
">\n\nTrying to justify yourself?",
">\n\nWhat is unjustifiable here?",
">\n\nI recently visited one. Frankly I just sought for intimacy. I asked them to kiss me and just take it slow. Because that’s what I miss in my life: intimacy.\nI noticed a lot of people have an opinion on it. I can never tell my parents nor my friends. You can only blame me to be socially maladjusted. I have tried all things I could in dating beforehand and frankly it didn’t work.\nSo… I think it’s something in my character to seek for a prostitute. I don’t think it should be condemned because everyone seeks what I am seeking. Only difference is some people can find it over Tinder or in their social circles, and I have to pay for it. Sorry, I wish it was different but it isn’t.",
">\n\nInteresting post. Thanks.\nWhat would you see that would make you change your mind?\n\nsex is considered intimate and special to some people \n\nWhat if sex is objectively intimate and special, as opposed to “some people” finding it subjectively intimate and special? Would that change your mind?",
">\n\nI think in context of religion and this kind of view yes but if you lack this, you are Into causal sex ,and support sex work I don't get it",
">\n\nThanks for the response.\nLet’s back up…I think we are missing each other. The sub is called r/changemyview, so I first want to understand your view and then have you tell me what would change it. Alternatively, if nothing would change it, I would like to know that, too.\nI think your argument is the following:\nP1: Moral oppobrium is an appropriate response only to moral failures.\nP2: There is no moral aspect to a consensual sex act.\nC1: Therefore, moral oppobrium is not appropriate for (uncoerced) sex workers and their patrons.\nDo I have that right? If not, please correct me.",
">\n\nYou do",
">\n\nWhat about how awfully the punters treat the women who work in prostitution, as this article (and many others) reveals? Would you not look down on these men because of this?",
">\n\nI would but not all men who hire sex workers do this , also this is not a specifically sex worker problem , it can happen even in the confines of a relationship , do you also look down on men who enter relationships with women or just the men who are abusive because it also applies in the cases of sex work porn is part of sex work\nSome of the other issues come with the job which like it or not the one who aren't trafficked consent to it , like the idea that they don't get hired for other jobs , then things like racism , sexual harassment violence , addiction being a single mom has nothing to do with sex work",
">\n\nIt's seen as a character flaw because people are expected to suppress their need for sex to some extent until they find an actual romantic partner. The fact that they can't do that shows they don't care about the expectation to do so and/or are too focused on getting sex to care.",
">\n\npaying for sex is paying for consent"
] |
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As a sex worker, thank you for this post. A lot of people don't realize that some humans- are incapable of getting laid on their own. Whether it be physical disabilities or emotional /social issues.... Sometimes paying for sex will be the only time certain people ever get touched intimately, and to take that away from...that's really f* up.
And furthermore; I think it's funny that religious people are totally fine with renting a womb to have a baby- but not my body- which is MINE- for my own reasons (money/pleasure)...
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"/u/Due-Lie-8710 (OP) has awarded 7 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nThere's a song I like that speaks on this fairly poetically, so I'd like to start by just directly quoting it:\n\nSo when you bled on the bed as you fed those expectations, as a whore and not a human, you embraced with hesitation the very parameters of all you can be. Not a mother, not an aunt, not a sister who's not subdued. Because dignity's not physical, and your flesh means more than you.\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.",
">\n\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.\n\nFirst of all if you aren't trafficked it is just like another job, as for you both being seen as human , make sense hey aren't there to befriend to have sex , you are performing a service, it's like you watching football or a movie, you only see them as footballers ot actors , half of the time they don't care about their personal life, there are some jobs that prevent you from getting any high paying jobs or jobs that involve care , as for the people purchasing it , if you can't purchase it then why should they sell it , you don't actually support sex work, because that would mean accepting the consumer base ad well as the supplier",
">\n\nThat’s a really big if though, sex work isn’t exactly an industry where you will know for sure if the service you’re getting is consensual. individuals who are victims of sexual trafficking, coercion, or just life circumstance aren’t likely to just tell their “customers” if it isn’t consensual. they could endanger themselves or not be aware that they can say something. \nSeeing someone as an object vs seeing them as an individual with a job aren’t the same though? yes we recognize actors and football players by their career choice and how well they are at it, but they’re still people at the end of the day? that’s why they have fanbases, interviews, paparazzi, popularity on social media, movie adaptions of their life exist—people are interested in more than them just doing their job.\nA persons job is no reason to suddenly strip them of their humanity and rights granted them for being such, that kind of mentality is morally skewed and why a lot of people would not support sex work. plus you can’t say it makes sense for sex workers to be see as commodities only and then believe sex work will be consensual. the whole consent part comes from recognizing that this is another person who has their own boundaries and limits beyond just what you want.",
">\n\nokay, that’s a plumber and not a person you’re having sex with. unlike plumbing which is clean cut, sex can include multiple aspects of different kinks and fetishes. You can’t expect a sex worker to be okay with say participating in rape play, anal, scat, and a mirage of other kinks simply because they agreed to sex. Sex is not clean cut, there is more to it. There has to be a boundary somewhere, this is another person body not a pipe.",
">\n\nThat’s like the point? recognizing the boundary and proceeding from there by RESPECTING the boundary because they are another person and not some masturbatory object. What you just said was a consensual interaction. The initial point was that there is no consensual sex without respecting the party that’s giving as a person.",
">\n\nSo... there's a concept of a moral hazard. \nThere's literally no way for an individual to be certain that their prostitute is not being coerced/trafficked. Even if there are some special circumstances where it might be unlikely, certainty is still impossible, and most people frequenting prostitutes are not in those special circumstances.\nSomeone using their services is therefore extremely likely to be comfortable with risking that they are unknowingly raping someone. \nGenerally speaking, people find that disgusting.",
">\n\nIf you eat chocolate (even the stuff with the fair trade sticker) then there's no guarantee that it hasn't come from slave farms which are not uncommon. If you eat chocolate throughout your life then you are almost definitely contributing to slavery. If you visit a prostitute regularly then the chance they're being exploited is anywhere from functioninally 0% to 100%. So why treat the John who might be discerning with scorn and not the chocolate eater who is a much safer bet in having contributed to coerced labour.",
">\n\nIt's worth trying to avoid those situations, but ultimately it's a very false equivalence to hold people responsible for the actions of others, vs. their own personal actions.\nWhen you buy chocolate, you're not actually holding a gun to a slave, someone else is. The right answer to that is to lobby for worker protections for imported goods, and to try to end involuntary servitude within your country as well. \nWhen you have sex with a trafficked person, you personally literally raped them. If you don't have good evidence to know they aren't trafficked, you're personally ok with the possibility you're going to personally rape them. \nBoth might be considered bad. But it's a false equivalence.\nAnd sure... if someone is paying someone for sex when they are personal friends with them, and interact with them outside of prostitution enough to personally know that they aren't being trafficked... and you're sure they aren't lying, scorning them more than at most some light ribbing isn't justified. It's not like \"sugar daddies\" aren't a thing as well. At the very least much less disapprobation would be appropriate.",
">\n\nIn both cases, there is a customer receiving a service provided by a potentially enslaved person. They are morally equivalent. It makes no sense to say “sure I bought the slavery chocolate, but you can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”",
">\n\n\nyou can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”\n\nThe slavers actions are distinct from the consumers' actions for most things. \nThis is an actual important difference when it comes to prostitution. \nIgnoring that fundamental difference doesn't make it go away, and it's entirely reasonable for someone to make that distinction.",
">\n\nThe slaver and consumer are different people who take different actions in the prostitution scenario. The consumer in both scenarios is taking the risk of being immoral. If I force you to be my slave that’s still immoral whether or not I put you to work in my brothel or mine or factory or fishing boat. And if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever, it’s equivalent.",
">\n\n\nAnd if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever , it’s equivalent.\n\nThis is where the false equivalence comes in. \nSomeone making products with slave labor is not renting out a slave to the consumer so that they consumer can force them to perform mining for the consumer. They are enslaving the labor to create a product, and selling the product. Products don't have rights to violate. The only person violating the rights of the slave is the slaver.\nSomeone trafficking a victim is renting out that victim so that the consumer can rape them.",
">\n\nIf the sex is only contractual to you? Why not just \"hook up.\" Why pay? You will never be able to guarantee they are not being trafficked. If they are, they are not going to tell you. I think the idea of money exchanging hands for sex is the why most have a problem. The idea that you are giving a woman money for sex has been historically seen as her being a whore. \nI am not saying she is. I am saying that from the time it first exchanged hands, that is what it was. Men who could not find a woman, paid a woman. Why do you want others to see it differently? Yes, there will be outliers that will enjoy the work. But those are going to be ones that, like the escort, chose it, and charge what they want. Not the typical street hookers on the corner with pimps to pay. \nProve they are not trafficked, they work for themselves, they are clean (of both drugs and diseases - because they are taking care of themselves and being safe), and that they are a sex worker because they enjoy the work or that that chose the work. Then, hey! Pay 'em and get to it!",
">\n\nI think it is morally unhealthy to normalize it. Even though you have to be an adult to smoke weed, we definitely see weed as a normal thing to do in moderation compared to a few decades ago. This is how we would see prostitution if it was normalized. And I think weed has a lot less complications than legalizing prostitution. A LOT!\nSex work online is a lot safer and requires a lot less mental issues to engage in and promote. But even then, I know some sex workers (online type), and they are scarred by the stuff they have seen when it comes to their job. They have told me stories that are extremely disturbing. These are women who just do stuff by themselves. Not working with a porn company and other people.\nAlso, sex has a huge reputation for being violent and demoralizing towards women in general. I'd assume those numbers would be much higher in men looking to pay for sex. You'd have to have extremely strict and tight regulations for this sort of thing, which would take the fun out of it for a lot of people. And even then, there would still be many mistakes that would happen before we find out all the regulations that are needed. And I don't think we could ever make it mentally and physically safe for women.\nNow, do I think it should be decriminalized for prostitutes? Definitely. I don't see them as disgusting. I feel quite bad for them. Most of them were trafficked at a young age. Do I see men wanting to pay for sex as disgusting? Not necessarily. It depends on the person and the situation. However, this isn't a simple issue where if we just \"stop judging people,\" everything will be fine.",
">\n\nDecriminalizing prostitution for both those selling and buying is demonstrably safer for prostitutes. If it is criminal for the buyer but not the seller, the buyer is often highly defensive and paranoid about the seller, specifically the possibility that they may be working with law enforcement. The buyer will often push to do it in a highly isolated setting as well. These things increase violence that sex workers face, and the averages go down in places where it is decriminalized to both buy and sell. If you have a designated work place for it and no one needs to be distrustful and worried about being arrested, that is the safest situation for all involved. \nWe may disagree with buying it for whatever moral reason, but if we choose to criminalize the purchase of it, we are prioritizing punishing behavior we morally disagree with over prioritizing the safety of those involved, which I can't get behind.",
">\n\nBut there are so many more facets to the safety of legalizing it for the buyer other than them being pushy or wanting to do it in a hidden area. If we legalized it, it still wouldn't really help any of the points I made or is even something that is so overwhelmingly an issue compared to the points I made.",
">\n\nSo long as we have to work to live, all jobs are coercive, even sex work. I’m skeptical that there can ever be a consensual exchange within our current economic context.",
">\n\nExactly , I get sex is intimate but if you are willing to view sex work as any other job , you should be willing to treat it as such",
">\n\nSex work has certain occupational hazards that cannot be regulated away. OSHA (in the US) dictates that a person cannot be subject to bodily fluids without proper PPE in the workplace, and often johns just need to pay more to not wear a condom. Imagine a construction site paying workers more to not wear a hard hat. The greater potential for bodily harm is intrinsic to the work, and it will always be unsafe.",
">\n\nTrue but this doesn't really answer my question",
">\n\nMy point is that treating it like any other job is not ethically possible due to hazardous conditions",
">\n\nThis is a bad take.\nI’d wager prostitution doesn’t even rank in the top ten dangerous jobs by capita.",
">\n\nThat really depends. A gas station cashier likely has a higher risk of being killed. But a quick Google shows sex workers are thirty times more likely to get Aids than the general population. They're also at ridiculously high rates of risk to their mental health. Ptsd is common. Also, yes, sitting at a counter in a gas station is technically dangerous. But it is different type of danger compared to someone fucking them in the ass while shoving a sock in their mouth and calling them a dirty whore. When this happens to a prostitute, since she isn't dead, then all good right?! :) Her job isn't dangerous, she's still alive! And they're really not paid much. Average pay for a sex scene in porn for a woman is around $600, for the guy it's like a hundred. For prostitution you're looking at a hundred to two hundred dollars. \nAlso, if you're in the us. Good luck affording health insurance as an independent contractor engaged in sex work.",
">\n\nI’m not exactly impressed with the American system so if you’re criticising Americans health system then fuck yeah more power to you.\nYou raise fantastic points about there being non lethal dangers in sex work that are worth considering and harder to measure.\nThat being said, sit for a while and think about whether you think that sex workers are in a job so dangerous that it deserves its own category and shouldn’t even be allowed. (This is what the commenter I was responding to was claiming)\nI’m comfortable I’d ban lumberjack as a profession long before I considered banning prostitution based on relative level of danger and conditions.\nI don’t have a specific statistic but soldiers at an educated guess would probably be more likely to experience danger and mental issues but the commenter I responded to probably never thought for one second about banning soldiers on that basis.\nIt’s clear bias, being rationalised as something it isn’t.",
">\n\nIt's decriminalised where I live, which means women can arrange anything themselves. So you can have a strip club with a \"hotel\" above it. Basically 100% of the workers are foreign, from places like Ukraine. Russia, Moldova, Romania. Etc. It's a strange aspect which isn't often brought up. But\"legalizing \" almost always results on foreign workers undercutting any local workforce. How can a 26 year old American girl from the burbs compete with an 18 year Thai girl? One is fine doing work at basically the rates of a full time McDonald's employee, while the other isn't. And of course, that breeds the type of people you'd imagine running the business. Even in places like Amsterdam, where there's tons of regulation, you get the same trafficking you see anywhere else.\nSo morally. I've got zero problem. But I've just never seen a model that can actually ensure safety for everyone involved.",
">\n\nWell culture is everything isn't it? Of there wasn't so much sex tourism from places that have prostitution illegal there would probably be less demand wouldn't there? Less demand would make the whole industry safer imo due to the loss of money driving the search for foreign market girls\nLike imagine the whole world has a brothel just down the block. Does that make it more safe just by sheer volume and normality?",
">\n\nFirstly, i'm not religious, i'm sex-positive and the sex lives of strangers rarely concerns me. I don't think paying for these services makes you a \"bad\" person, nor a \"disgusting\" one.. but for me, it would affect your desirability to me as a partner. To me attraction is a big thing, and i'll be honest, I see it as kind of lame. Not morally corrupt but just ...desperate. \nI would want my partner to be someone that women wanted to have sex with, not the man that they had sex with as a purely profitable transaction. Whilst it's consensual, when you involve money or a benefit other than sex, the line slightly blurs, and I find it becomes icky. \nIt's not even that I think my partner should only have had strictly intimate and personable relations... but the question does spring to mind of \"is sex that has been paid for truly consensual? can you guarantee that?\" Even popular Pornstars who previously agreed to do porn and made careers out of it have stories where they later felt disgusted by what they've had to do but were so enamored by the money, they went through with it. Sex workers will ALWAYS sell a positive image to their clients, part of their job is to make you feel desired, but you never truly know the reality. \nAll in all, it can be seen as \"bad\" or \"disgusting\" because monetary rewards affects the lines of purely consensual sex. The same way it can be icky for a boss to have sex with the intern, the same way directors have sex with actresses that want to star in their movies, and the same way rockstars have sex with their fans. Doesn't make 'em rapists, but it's why people won't look at it as respectable.",
">\n\nyou aren’t sex positive if you think paying for sex is desperate.\ndoes paying for alcohol mean you’re desperate for happiness? some people want to have fun so they buy drinks, others find more fun in sex. as long as sex work is consensual and not the result of pimping or some other form of coercion then I don’t see any harm or how it would be desperate.\nthere are tangible benefits to buying sex vs finding it “naturally” that i don’t think you’re considering. \nwith sex workers you’re safer and don’t have to worry about pregnancy, theft, psychotic women, and other risks that come from random hookups with strangers or even casual dating. there’s also the whole “i don’t need to put time and effort into finding and flirting with someone” when it can be on demand. yea making food at home is usually cheaper and better tasting than takeout but sometimes you’re lazy and want a pizza delivered.",
">\n\nI’m generally sex positive to consensual sex between people. However, everything falls on a spectrum and I don’t think you have to have a certain view on every avenue to be as such. Much like you can love your job, your country or your friends but that doesn’t mean you can’t provide any forms of criticism nor must you love EVERY aspect of these things. \nI have no disdain for people who hook up on dating apps, clubs, attend sex parties etc. I will always believe sex workers should have right to practice and do so in a safe environment. I also wouldn’t stop their client base either, it’s not my business, but there are ethical implications and I’ve said my view from the perspective of my partner which naturally i hold to a more personable standard. I wouldn’t want to be with someone who puts their sexual desires above the possible implications involved in sex work. \nI do want to touch on your point that as long as it’s not coerced or forced, it’s okay. The ethical implication behind this is that when you involve money, this is not guaranteed. Not all clients will take the time to research the background and extra people involved behind the scenes. The women with pimps and who are trafficked won’t spill those beans to you. Again, there will always be exceptions to the rule. \nI understand that sex work is convenient to many but my perception is not swayed by the mere idea that paying for sex means you get to avoid having to flirt with women. Much like I can understand why people have no choice to purchase fast fashion and I’ll understand the reasoning but that does not mean I should ignore the child labour and poor conditions that make this possible. \nAll in all, I won’t stop you but I’m going to think it’s kinda lame. You can wear an item of clothing, I’ll defend you to wear that clothing and I won’t make you feel bad for wearing it.. but I may not like it myself.",
">\n\nReading your posts made me think of a bird preening it's feathers to attract a mate. I thought it was just you being obtuse untill you brought fashion into this lol\nYou really are just a pair of eyes arnt you. No complexity attached. \"I saw it in the window so I bought it! I didn't even care that it was 500$ I just wanted it because the other girls were eyeing it down and I just HAD to have it💅\"",
">\n\nI genuinely have no idea what you’re trying to convey. The topic of fashion was merely to represent that there are often complexities and nuance. So yes, I can be sex positive but I don’t necessarily have to agree with all the variances within the to topic of sex. \nI assume I’ve hit a nerve for your style of response.",
">\n\nNot sure about everywhere else but in America being as prostitution is illegal a lot of the situations the workers are in are really sad, depressing and predatory. If you take a look at the book “Pimp” by ice berg slim for example a lot of the industry isn’t the ideal some just wants to make money like any other job and the pimp is just a bodyguard/manger,\nA lot of it involves a tone of manipulation and dependency and when you add on the ones where safe sex isn’t a priority and the literal hundreds of partners you engage with in such a short time it all comes off as kinda gross.",
">\n\nSex, when a service, is not the same as any other service. There is a difference between driving a person somewhere in a taxi and having your face fucked and ejaculated on by a stranger. As many have stated before and as you can see in 99% of porn is that sex as a service is usually degrading towards women. Just look at the front page of any given porn site. Most of it is not, in any way, esteeming of the women participating. Look at goddamn blowjob videos. The women are not giving a blowjob - they are getting their face fucked. Extra points if they have to gag and be obviously physically uncomfortable and struggling to breathe. Dude it is just not the same as someone operating a forklift or making flower arrangements. Most of it is degrading and the more degrading the more klicks - the more people who frequent porn sites like it. And it's the same with prostitution. Read about what these women have experienced. It is plain awful. Sure if you are talking about a utopia where you can be 100% sure the prostitutes are there on their own terms and if every single customer is a loving, caring, gentle person taking care of the sex workers needs as much as their own - then yes, there would not be anything wrong with it. But that is just not how it is.\nHow hard is it, even in a healthy loving relationship, to always have both partners perfectly satisfied and met their needs sexually?\nSex is as intimate as human interaction can get and buying that from someone is taking all incentive away to treat the other person as good as you would treat a partner who you love and/or actively want to enjoy the time with you.\nAnd that is what disgusts people about people who frequent prostitutes. The possibility of being a person who, as long as they pay for something or feel like they've done their dues, doesn't give a shit about what the person on the other end is experiencing.\nedit: Because of other comments from OP I accused them of debating rather than discussing and suggested if they were seeking moral validation for what they do, which in itself was not part of a discussion really. I deleted that part because it serves no neutral purpose.",
">\n\nWell in this context not special but very very different, in the way that it is way more intimate, there's actually a part of ones body entering the others. There is exchange of bodily fluids. Those services are different from each other the same way as a massage is different to shoving items across a scanner, just times ten. One is naked, one experiences pleasure (or great pain) and one is not using their body to do something, they are having their body be used by someone else. That can leave physical bruises and mental scars because one is extremely vulnerable in the act.",
">\n\nMy view on it is that the act in itself is not wrong for anybody involved, but the character implication is what causes it to be met with disgust by some.\nIf you have money and you pay for sex from somebody who is willing, then it's no problem, but the issue comes when you delve into why they might be paying for sex.\nMany people experience sex in a consensual environment with a person who desires sex with them, and no money is involved. Many would view this as a very normal and important part of life.\nThe question that comes up subconsciously and/or consciously is \"why does this person need to pay for sex?\"\nIt could be that they have undeveloped social skills and this coild be deemed as a negative trait that needs to be worked on.\nAnother reason could be an atypically high sex drive, which could also be perceived as sex addiction.\nThese are not unlikely reasons for a person to pay a sex worker for sex and a judgement could be made before understanding more that they possess These sorts of traits that people simply have the desire to avoid.",
">\n\nThis is the correct answer. \nThe reason people look down on people who hire hookers has nothing to do with sex trafficking, or what really qualifies as consent, or any of the other comments in this thread. I think a good example is your iPhone. It is basically made with slave labor, but nobody really gives a shit. They just happily use their phone. If they actually did give a shit, they wouldn't buy iPhones. Also, prostitution has been around basically since the beginning of time. It has always been a part of human relationships and always will be.\nFor better or worse, the reason people look down on people who hire hookers is that it implies you are deficient in some way. If you were better looking or had better social skills or had more control over your base urges you would not need to hire a hooker. \nPersonally, I look at it like a wheelchair. I dont need a wheelchair and I really hope I never need one, but it is not fair (and downright cruel) for me to look down on someone who does use one. Are they deficient in some way? Yes. They can't walk. Do they deserve admonishment or judgement? No. Not at all.",
">\n\nYou're not paying too have sex with a prostitute. You're paying to use her body as a masturbatory aid.\nProstitution reduces women to being commodities, objects, things. Every other job, you're providing a skill to produce or exchange goods and services. Prostitution, the woman is the thing you're purchasing. The women are the commodities, they're not viewed as humen, they're viewed as consumable goods.",
">\n\nJust like almost every other Job, and any other form of sex work like strippers, onlyfans model , some e girl, girls who post theist traps on social media, so what makes those empowering and not this",
">\n\nStrippers, only fans, e-girls are not empowering. It's gross. When it comes down to it, they're sluts. And they're no better than their fuck-boy counterparts.",
">\n\nOK fair so the difference in worldview is what makes argumen unsound to you !delta",
">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/19jals80 (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nYou just can never know for sure whether the sex worker is being trafficked or not. You can't assume they'd tell you the truth if you asked. They might endanger themselves by telling you the truth. The sex worker wants money, and is willing to have some sexual contact with you in order to get the money. But fundamentally, they're permitting you to do something to their body that they do not want in and of itself. Therefore, their consent is dubious and conditional upon your payment. To me, that's not sufficient consent. I want someone I'm having sex with to genuinely, enthusiastically want to have sex with me for the sole purpose of enjoying sex with me. I don't want to use people as means to ends, and I don't want to be used as a means to anyone else's ends.\nI don't morally disapprove of sex work. I just wouldn't support it because it doesn't provide a good or service that interests me. I want actual human connection, which is something money cannot buy. I do morally disapprove of a system that drives people into sex work to get by or get ahead.",
">\n\n\nYou just can never know for sure whether the sex worker is being trafficked or not. \n\nThis argument can be made for any form of low-skilled labor.\nThere is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that sex work uses slavery more often than say construction work or weaving baskets.\nYour argument applies just as easily to buying a shoe, because it could have been constructed by slaves.",
">\n\nYour whataboutism does nothing to resolve the moral question.",
">\n\n“whataboutism” is the new trendy defence for people who've been shown a reductiō ad absurdum it seems.\nI'm showing that your argument can just as easily be used to argue the absurd, and that therefore it can't hold much water. Unless one were to believe in the absurd, and would believe that there is a problem with buying shoes or about any product.",
">\n\nAgain, none of what you've said addresses the moral dilemma in question. Moral questions can't be hand-waved away with empty rhetorical devices. This is still a question of how our choices impact the lives and well-being of others. The fact that we live in a world run by greed does not alleviate the moral burden of making this decision responsibly.",
">\n\nI don't think there is a solid \" yes \" or \" no \" answer to this question. There are so many ( but if's) that it's hard to give more than just an opinion.\n\n\nSpeaking from a Christian perspective, morally, yeah, it's wrong. Because sex is seen as something that's sacred that should be shared between 2 consenting married adults. \n\n\nBut if a woman isn't being forced in any type of way, shape, or form and she simply enjoys cash & realized opening her legs to buyers can get her lots of cash, that's her business. Not anyone else's.",
">\n\nTrying to justify yourself?",
">\n\nWhat is unjustifiable here?",
">\n\nI recently visited one. Frankly I just sought for intimacy. I asked them to kiss me and just take it slow. Because that’s what I miss in my life: intimacy.\nI noticed a lot of people have an opinion on it. I can never tell my parents nor my friends. You can only blame me to be socially maladjusted. I have tried all things I could in dating beforehand and frankly it didn’t work.\nSo… I think it’s something in my character to seek for a prostitute. I don’t think it should be condemned because everyone seeks what I am seeking. Only difference is some people can find it over Tinder or in their social circles, and I have to pay for it. Sorry, I wish it was different but it isn’t.",
">\n\nInteresting post. Thanks.\nWhat would you see that would make you change your mind?\n\nsex is considered intimate and special to some people \n\nWhat if sex is objectively intimate and special, as opposed to “some people” finding it subjectively intimate and special? Would that change your mind?",
">\n\nI think in context of religion and this kind of view yes but if you lack this, you are Into causal sex ,and support sex work I don't get it",
">\n\nThanks for the response.\nLet’s back up…I think we are missing each other. The sub is called r/changemyview, so I first want to understand your view and then have you tell me what would change it. Alternatively, if nothing would change it, I would like to know that, too.\nI think your argument is the following:\nP1: Moral oppobrium is an appropriate response only to moral failures.\nP2: There is no moral aspect to a consensual sex act.\nC1: Therefore, moral oppobrium is not appropriate for (uncoerced) sex workers and their patrons.\nDo I have that right? If not, please correct me.",
">\n\nYou do",
">\n\nWhat about how awfully the punters treat the women who work in prostitution, as this article (and many others) reveals? Would you not look down on these men because of this?",
">\n\nI would but not all men who hire sex workers do this , also this is not a specifically sex worker problem , it can happen even in the confines of a relationship , do you also look down on men who enter relationships with women or just the men who are abusive because it also applies in the cases of sex work porn is part of sex work\nSome of the other issues come with the job which like it or not the one who aren't trafficked consent to it , like the idea that they don't get hired for other jobs , then things like racism , sexual harassment violence , addiction being a single mom has nothing to do with sex work",
">\n\nIt's seen as a character flaw because people are expected to suppress their need for sex to some extent until they find an actual romantic partner. The fact that they can't do that shows they don't care about the expectation to do so and/or are too focused on getting sex to care.",
">\n\npaying for sex is paying for consent",
">\n\nJust like anybody else who works 8 hours for low pay. I didn't know sex was such a horrible thing, or is it just taboo?"
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I am religious, and am definitely NOT okay with renting wombs. In fact, I see it as far more reprehensible than sex work.
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"/u/Due-Lie-8710 (OP) has awarded 7 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nThere's a song I like that speaks on this fairly poetically, so I'd like to start by just directly quoting it:\n\nSo when you bled on the bed as you fed those expectations, as a whore and not a human, you embraced with hesitation the very parameters of all you can be. Not a mother, not an aunt, not a sister who's not subdued. Because dignity's not physical, and your flesh means more than you.\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.",
">\n\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.\n\nFirst of all if you aren't trafficked it is just like another job, as for you both being seen as human , make sense hey aren't there to befriend to have sex , you are performing a service, it's like you watching football or a movie, you only see them as footballers ot actors , half of the time they don't care about their personal life, there are some jobs that prevent you from getting any high paying jobs or jobs that involve care , as for the people purchasing it , if you can't purchase it then why should they sell it , you don't actually support sex work, because that would mean accepting the consumer base ad well as the supplier",
">\n\nThat’s a really big if though, sex work isn’t exactly an industry where you will know for sure if the service you’re getting is consensual. individuals who are victims of sexual trafficking, coercion, or just life circumstance aren’t likely to just tell their “customers” if it isn’t consensual. they could endanger themselves or not be aware that they can say something. \nSeeing someone as an object vs seeing them as an individual with a job aren’t the same though? yes we recognize actors and football players by their career choice and how well they are at it, but they’re still people at the end of the day? that’s why they have fanbases, interviews, paparazzi, popularity on social media, movie adaptions of their life exist—people are interested in more than them just doing their job.\nA persons job is no reason to suddenly strip them of their humanity and rights granted them for being such, that kind of mentality is morally skewed and why a lot of people would not support sex work. plus you can’t say it makes sense for sex workers to be see as commodities only and then believe sex work will be consensual. the whole consent part comes from recognizing that this is another person who has their own boundaries and limits beyond just what you want.",
">\n\nokay, that’s a plumber and not a person you’re having sex with. unlike plumbing which is clean cut, sex can include multiple aspects of different kinks and fetishes. You can’t expect a sex worker to be okay with say participating in rape play, anal, scat, and a mirage of other kinks simply because they agreed to sex. Sex is not clean cut, there is more to it. There has to be a boundary somewhere, this is another person body not a pipe.",
">\n\nThat’s like the point? recognizing the boundary and proceeding from there by RESPECTING the boundary because they are another person and not some masturbatory object. What you just said was a consensual interaction. The initial point was that there is no consensual sex without respecting the party that’s giving as a person.",
">\n\nSo... there's a concept of a moral hazard. \nThere's literally no way for an individual to be certain that their prostitute is not being coerced/trafficked. Even if there are some special circumstances where it might be unlikely, certainty is still impossible, and most people frequenting prostitutes are not in those special circumstances.\nSomeone using their services is therefore extremely likely to be comfortable with risking that they are unknowingly raping someone. \nGenerally speaking, people find that disgusting.",
">\n\nIf you eat chocolate (even the stuff with the fair trade sticker) then there's no guarantee that it hasn't come from slave farms which are not uncommon. If you eat chocolate throughout your life then you are almost definitely contributing to slavery. If you visit a prostitute regularly then the chance they're being exploited is anywhere from functioninally 0% to 100%. So why treat the John who might be discerning with scorn and not the chocolate eater who is a much safer bet in having contributed to coerced labour.",
">\n\nIt's worth trying to avoid those situations, but ultimately it's a very false equivalence to hold people responsible for the actions of others, vs. their own personal actions.\nWhen you buy chocolate, you're not actually holding a gun to a slave, someone else is. The right answer to that is to lobby for worker protections for imported goods, and to try to end involuntary servitude within your country as well. \nWhen you have sex with a trafficked person, you personally literally raped them. If you don't have good evidence to know they aren't trafficked, you're personally ok with the possibility you're going to personally rape them. \nBoth might be considered bad. But it's a false equivalence.\nAnd sure... if someone is paying someone for sex when they are personal friends with them, and interact with them outside of prostitution enough to personally know that they aren't being trafficked... and you're sure they aren't lying, scorning them more than at most some light ribbing isn't justified. It's not like \"sugar daddies\" aren't a thing as well. At the very least much less disapprobation would be appropriate.",
">\n\nIn both cases, there is a customer receiving a service provided by a potentially enslaved person. They are morally equivalent. It makes no sense to say “sure I bought the slavery chocolate, but you can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”",
">\n\n\nyou can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”\n\nThe slavers actions are distinct from the consumers' actions for most things. \nThis is an actual important difference when it comes to prostitution. \nIgnoring that fundamental difference doesn't make it go away, and it's entirely reasonable for someone to make that distinction.",
">\n\nThe slaver and consumer are different people who take different actions in the prostitution scenario. The consumer in both scenarios is taking the risk of being immoral. If I force you to be my slave that’s still immoral whether or not I put you to work in my brothel or mine or factory or fishing boat. And if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever, it’s equivalent.",
">\n\n\nAnd if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever , it’s equivalent.\n\nThis is where the false equivalence comes in. \nSomeone making products with slave labor is not renting out a slave to the consumer so that they consumer can force them to perform mining for the consumer. They are enslaving the labor to create a product, and selling the product. Products don't have rights to violate. The only person violating the rights of the slave is the slaver.\nSomeone trafficking a victim is renting out that victim so that the consumer can rape them.",
">\n\nIf the sex is only contractual to you? Why not just \"hook up.\" Why pay? You will never be able to guarantee they are not being trafficked. If they are, they are not going to tell you. I think the idea of money exchanging hands for sex is the why most have a problem. The idea that you are giving a woman money for sex has been historically seen as her being a whore. \nI am not saying she is. I am saying that from the time it first exchanged hands, that is what it was. Men who could not find a woman, paid a woman. Why do you want others to see it differently? Yes, there will be outliers that will enjoy the work. But those are going to be ones that, like the escort, chose it, and charge what they want. Not the typical street hookers on the corner with pimps to pay. \nProve they are not trafficked, they work for themselves, they are clean (of both drugs and diseases - because they are taking care of themselves and being safe), and that they are a sex worker because they enjoy the work or that that chose the work. Then, hey! Pay 'em and get to it!",
">\n\nI think it is morally unhealthy to normalize it. Even though you have to be an adult to smoke weed, we definitely see weed as a normal thing to do in moderation compared to a few decades ago. This is how we would see prostitution if it was normalized. And I think weed has a lot less complications than legalizing prostitution. A LOT!\nSex work online is a lot safer and requires a lot less mental issues to engage in and promote. But even then, I know some sex workers (online type), and they are scarred by the stuff they have seen when it comes to their job. They have told me stories that are extremely disturbing. These are women who just do stuff by themselves. Not working with a porn company and other people.\nAlso, sex has a huge reputation for being violent and demoralizing towards women in general. I'd assume those numbers would be much higher in men looking to pay for sex. You'd have to have extremely strict and tight regulations for this sort of thing, which would take the fun out of it for a lot of people. And even then, there would still be many mistakes that would happen before we find out all the regulations that are needed. And I don't think we could ever make it mentally and physically safe for women.\nNow, do I think it should be decriminalized for prostitutes? Definitely. I don't see them as disgusting. I feel quite bad for them. Most of them were trafficked at a young age. Do I see men wanting to pay for sex as disgusting? Not necessarily. It depends on the person and the situation. However, this isn't a simple issue where if we just \"stop judging people,\" everything will be fine.",
">\n\nDecriminalizing prostitution for both those selling and buying is demonstrably safer for prostitutes. If it is criminal for the buyer but not the seller, the buyer is often highly defensive and paranoid about the seller, specifically the possibility that they may be working with law enforcement. The buyer will often push to do it in a highly isolated setting as well. These things increase violence that sex workers face, and the averages go down in places where it is decriminalized to both buy and sell. If you have a designated work place for it and no one needs to be distrustful and worried about being arrested, that is the safest situation for all involved. \nWe may disagree with buying it for whatever moral reason, but if we choose to criminalize the purchase of it, we are prioritizing punishing behavior we morally disagree with over prioritizing the safety of those involved, which I can't get behind.",
">\n\nBut there are so many more facets to the safety of legalizing it for the buyer other than them being pushy or wanting to do it in a hidden area. If we legalized it, it still wouldn't really help any of the points I made or is even something that is so overwhelmingly an issue compared to the points I made.",
">\n\nSo long as we have to work to live, all jobs are coercive, even sex work. I’m skeptical that there can ever be a consensual exchange within our current economic context.",
">\n\nExactly , I get sex is intimate but if you are willing to view sex work as any other job , you should be willing to treat it as such",
">\n\nSex work has certain occupational hazards that cannot be regulated away. OSHA (in the US) dictates that a person cannot be subject to bodily fluids without proper PPE in the workplace, and often johns just need to pay more to not wear a condom. Imagine a construction site paying workers more to not wear a hard hat. The greater potential for bodily harm is intrinsic to the work, and it will always be unsafe.",
">\n\nTrue but this doesn't really answer my question",
">\n\nMy point is that treating it like any other job is not ethically possible due to hazardous conditions",
">\n\nThis is a bad take.\nI’d wager prostitution doesn’t even rank in the top ten dangerous jobs by capita.",
">\n\nThat really depends. A gas station cashier likely has a higher risk of being killed. But a quick Google shows sex workers are thirty times more likely to get Aids than the general population. They're also at ridiculously high rates of risk to their mental health. Ptsd is common. Also, yes, sitting at a counter in a gas station is technically dangerous. But it is different type of danger compared to someone fucking them in the ass while shoving a sock in their mouth and calling them a dirty whore. When this happens to a prostitute, since she isn't dead, then all good right?! :) Her job isn't dangerous, she's still alive! And they're really not paid much. Average pay for a sex scene in porn for a woman is around $600, for the guy it's like a hundred. For prostitution you're looking at a hundred to two hundred dollars. \nAlso, if you're in the us. Good luck affording health insurance as an independent contractor engaged in sex work.",
">\n\nI’m not exactly impressed with the American system so if you’re criticising Americans health system then fuck yeah more power to you.\nYou raise fantastic points about there being non lethal dangers in sex work that are worth considering and harder to measure.\nThat being said, sit for a while and think about whether you think that sex workers are in a job so dangerous that it deserves its own category and shouldn’t even be allowed. (This is what the commenter I was responding to was claiming)\nI’m comfortable I’d ban lumberjack as a profession long before I considered banning prostitution based on relative level of danger and conditions.\nI don’t have a specific statistic but soldiers at an educated guess would probably be more likely to experience danger and mental issues but the commenter I responded to probably never thought for one second about banning soldiers on that basis.\nIt’s clear bias, being rationalised as something it isn’t.",
">\n\nIt's decriminalised where I live, which means women can arrange anything themselves. So you can have a strip club with a \"hotel\" above it. Basically 100% of the workers are foreign, from places like Ukraine. Russia, Moldova, Romania. Etc. It's a strange aspect which isn't often brought up. But\"legalizing \" almost always results on foreign workers undercutting any local workforce. How can a 26 year old American girl from the burbs compete with an 18 year Thai girl? One is fine doing work at basically the rates of a full time McDonald's employee, while the other isn't. And of course, that breeds the type of people you'd imagine running the business. Even in places like Amsterdam, where there's tons of regulation, you get the same trafficking you see anywhere else.\nSo morally. I've got zero problem. But I've just never seen a model that can actually ensure safety for everyone involved.",
">\n\nWell culture is everything isn't it? Of there wasn't so much sex tourism from places that have prostitution illegal there would probably be less demand wouldn't there? Less demand would make the whole industry safer imo due to the loss of money driving the search for foreign market girls\nLike imagine the whole world has a brothel just down the block. Does that make it more safe just by sheer volume and normality?",
">\n\nFirstly, i'm not religious, i'm sex-positive and the sex lives of strangers rarely concerns me. I don't think paying for these services makes you a \"bad\" person, nor a \"disgusting\" one.. but for me, it would affect your desirability to me as a partner. To me attraction is a big thing, and i'll be honest, I see it as kind of lame. Not morally corrupt but just ...desperate. \nI would want my partner to be someone that women wanted to have sex with, not the man that they had sex with as a purely profitable transaction. Whilst it's consensual, when you involve money or a benefit other than sex, the line slightly blurs, and I find it becomes icky. \nIt's not even that I think my partner should only have had strictly intimate and personable relations... but the question does spring to mind of \"is sex that has been paid for truly consensual? can you guarantee that?\" Even popular Pornstars who previously agreed to do porn and made careers out of it have stories where they later felt disgusted by what they've had to do but were so enamored by the money, they went through with it. Sex workers will ALWAYS sell a positive image to their clients, part of their job is to make you feel desired, but you never truly know the reality. \nAll in all, it can be seen as \"bad\" or \"disgusting\" because monetary rewards affects the lines of purely consensual sex. The same way it can be icky for a boss to have sex with the intern, the same way directors have sex with actresses that want to star in their movies, and the same way rockstars have sex with their fans. Doesn't make 'em rapists, but it's why people won't look at it as respectable.",
">\n\nyou aren’t sex positive if you think paying for sex is desperate.\ndoes paying for alcohol mean you’re desperate for happiness? some people want to have fun so they buy drinks, others find more fun in sex. as long as sex work is consensual and not the result of pimping or some other form of coercion then I don’t see any harm or how it would be desperate.\nthere are tangible benefits to buying sex vs finding it “naturally” that i don’t think you’re considering. \nwith sex workers you’re safer and don’t have to worry about pregnancy, theft, psychotic women, and other risks that come from random hookups with strangers or even casual dating. there’s also the whole “i don’t need to put time and effort into finding and flirting with someone” when it can be on demand. yea making food at home is usually cheaper and better tasting than takeout but sometimes you’re lazy and want a pizza delivered.",
">\n\nI’m generally sex positive to consensual sex between people. However, everything falls on a spectrum and I don’t think you have to have a certain view on every avenue to be as such. Much like you can love your job, your country or your friends but that doesn’t mean you can’t provide any forms of criticism nor must you love EVERY aspect of these things. \nI have no disdain for people who hook up on dating apps, clubs, attend sex parties etc. I will always believe sex workers should have right to practice and do so in a safe environment. I also wouldn’t stop their client base either, it’s not my business, but there are ethical implications and I’ve said my view from the perspective of my partner which naturally i hold to a more personable standard. I wouldn’t want to be with someone who puts their sexual desires above the possible implications involved in sex work. \nI do want to touch on your point that as long as it’s not coerced or forced, it’s okay. The ethical implication behind this is that when you involve money, this is not guaranteed. Not all clients will take the time to research the background and extra people involved behind the scenes. The women with pimps and who are trafficked won’t spill those beans to you. Again, there will always be exceptions to the rule. \nI understand that sex work is convenient to many but my perception is not swayed by the mere idea that paying for sex means you get to avoid having to flirt with women. Much like I can understand why people have no choice to purchase fast fashion and I’ll understand the reasoning but that does not mean I should ignore the child labour and poor conditions that make this possible. \nAll in all, I won’t stop you but I’m going to think it’s kinda lame. You can wear an item of clothing, I’ll defend you to wear that clothing and I won’t make you feel bad for wearing it.. but I may not like it myself.",
">\n\nReading your posts made me think of a bird preening it's feathers to attract a mate. I thought it was just you being obtuse untill you brought fashion into this lol\nYou really are just a pair of eyes arnt you. No complexity attached. \"I saw it in the window so I bought it! I didn't even care that it was 500$ I just wanted it because the other girls were eyeing it down and I just HAD to have it💅\"",
">\n\nI genuinely have no idea what you’re trying to convey. The topic of fashion was merely to represent that there are often complexities and nuance. So yes, I can be sex positive but I don’t necessarily have to agree with all the variances within the to topic of sex. \nI assume I’ve hit a nerve for your style of response.",
">\n\nNot sure about everywhere else but in America being as prostitution is illegal a lot of the situations the workers are in are really sad, depressing and predatory. If you take a look at the book “Pimp” by ice berg slim for example a lot of the industry isn’t the ideal some just wants to make money like any other job and the pimp is just a bodyguard/manger,\nA lot of it involves a tone of manipulation and dependency and when you add on the ones where safe sex isn’t a priority and the literal hundreds of partners you engage with in such a short time it all comes off as kinda gross.",
">\n\nSex, when a service, is not the same as any other service. There is a difference between driving a person somewhere in a taxi and having your face fucked and ejaculated on by a stranger. As many have stated before and as you can see in 99% of porn is that sex as a service is usually degrading towards women. Just look at the front page of any given porn site. Most of it is not, in any way, esteeming of the women participating. Look at goddamn blowjob videos. The women are not giving a blowjob - they are getting their face fucked. Extra points if they have to gag and be obviously physically uncomfortable and struggling to breathe. Dude it is just not the same as someone operating a forklift or making flower arrangements. Most of it is degrading and the more degrading the more klicks - the more people who frequent porn sites like it. And it's the same with prostitution. Read about what these women have experienced. It is plain awful. Sure if you are talking about a utopia where you can be 100% sure the prostitutes are there on their own terms and if every single customer is a loving, caring, gentle person taking care of the sex workers needs as much as their own - then yes, there would not be anything wrong with it. But that is just not how it is.\nHow hard is it, even in a healthy loving relationship, to always have both partners perfectly satisfied and met their needs sexually?\nSex is as intimate as human interaction can get and buying that from someone is taking all incentive away to treat the other person as good as you would treat a partner who you love and/or actively want to enjoy the time with you.\nAnd that is what disgusts people about people who frequent prostitutes. The possibility of being a person who, as long as they pay for something or feel like they've done their dues, doesn't give a shit about what the person on the other end is experiencing.\nedit: Because of other comments from OP I accused them of debating rather than discussing and suggested if they were seeking moral validation for what they do, which in itself was not part of a discussion really. I deleted that part because it serves no neutral purpose.",
">\n\nWell in this context not special but very very different, in the way that it is way more intimate, there's actually a part of ones body entering the others. There is exchange of bodily fluids. Those services are different from each other the same way as a massage is different to shoving items across a scanner, just times ten. One is naked, one experiences pleasure (or great pain) and one is not using their body to do something, they are having their body be used by someone else. That can leave physical bruises and mental scars because one is extremely vulnerable in the act.",
">\n\nMy view on it is that the act in itself is not wrong for anybody involved, but the character implication is what causes it to be met with disgust by some.\nIf you have money and you pay for sex from somebody who is willing, then it's no problem, but the issue comes when you delve into why they might be paying for sex.\nMany people experience sex in a consensual environment with a person who desires sex with them, and no money is involved. Many would view this as a very normal and important part of life.\nThe question that comes up subconsciously and/or consciously is \"why does this person need to pay for sex?\"\nIt could be that they have undeveloped social skills and this coild be deemed as a negative trait that needs to be worked on.\nAnother reason could be an atypically high sex drive, which could also be perceived as sex addiction.\nThese are not unlikely reasons for a person to pay a sex worker for sex and a judgement could be made before understanding more that they possess These sorts of traits that people simply have the desire to avoid.",
">\n\nThis is the correct answer. \nThe reason people look down on people who hire hookers has nothing to do with sex trafficking, or what really qualifies as consent, or any of the other comments in this thread. I think a good example is your iPhone. It is basically made with slave labor, but nobody really gives a shit. They just happily use their phone. If they actually did give a shit, they wouldn't buy iPhones. Also, prostitution has been around basically since the beginning of time. It has always been a part of human relationships and always will be.\nFor better or worse, the reason people look down on people who hire hookers is that it implies you are deficient in some way. If you were better looking or had better social skills or had more control over your base urges you would not need to hire a hooker. \nPersonally, I look at it like a wheelchair. I dont need a wheelchair and I really hope I never need one, but it is not fair (and downright cruel) for me to look down on someone who does use one. Are they deficient in some way? Yes. They can't walk. Do they deserve admonishment or judgement? No. Not at all.",
">\n\nYou're not paying too have sex with a prostitute. You're paying to use her body as a masturbatory aid.\nProstitution reduces women to being commodities, objects, things. Every other job, you're providing a skill to produce or exchange goods and services. Prostitution, the woman is the thing you're purchasing. The women are the commodities, they're not viewed as humen, they're viewed as consumable goods.",
">\n\nJust like almost every other Job, and any other form of sex work like strippers, onlyfans model , some e girl, girls who post theist traps on social media, so what makes those empowering and not this",
">\n\nStrippers, only fans, e-girls are not empowering. It's gross. When it comes down to it, they're sluts. And they're no better than their fuck-boy counterparts.",
">\n\nOK fair so the difference in worldview is what makes argumen unsound to you !delta",
">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/19jals80 (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nYou just can never know for sure whether the sex worker is being trafficked or not. You can't assume they'd tell you the truth if you asked. They might endanger themselves by telling you the truth. The sex worker wants money, and is willing to have some sexual contact with you in order to get the money. But fundamentally, they're permitting you to do something to their body that they do not want in and of itself. Therefore, their consent is dubious and conditional upon your payment. To me, that's not sufficient consent. I want someone I'm having sex with to genuinely, enthusiastically want to have sex with me for the sole purpose of enjoying sex with me. I don't want to use people as means to ends, and I don't want to be used as a means to anyone else's ends.\nI don't morally disapprove of sex work. I just wouldn't support it because it doesn't provide a good or service that interests me. I want actual human connection, which is something money cannot buy. I do morally disapprove of a system that drives people into sex work to get by or get ahead.",
">\n\n\nYou just can never know for sure whether the sex worker is being trafficked or not. \n\nThis argument can be made for any form of low-skilled labor.\nThere is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that sex work uses slavery more often than say construction work or weaving baskets.\nYour argument applies just as easily to buying a shoe, because it could have been constructed by slaves.",
">\n\nYour whataboutism does nothing to resolve the moral question.",
">\n\n“whataboutism” is the new trendy defence for people who've been shown a reductiō ad absurdum it seems.\nI'm showing that your argument can just as easily be used to argue the absurd, and that therefore it can't hold much water. Unless one were to believe in the absurd, and would believe that there is a problem with buying shoes or about any product.",
">\n\nAgain, none of what you've said addresses the moral dilemma in question. Moral questions can't be hand-waved away with empty rhetorical devices. This is still a question of how our choices impact the lives and well-being of others. The fact that we live in a world run by greed does not alleviate the moral burden of making this decision responsibly.",
">\n\nI don't think there is a solid \" yes \" or \" no \" answer to this question. There are so many ( but if's) that it's hard to give more than just an opinion.\n\n\nSpeaking from a Christian perspective, morally, yeah, it's wrong. Because sex is seen as something that's sacred that should be shared between 2 consenting married adults. \n\n\nBut if a woman isn't being forced in any type of way, shape, or form and she simply enjoys cash & realized opening her legs to buyers can get her lots of cash, that's her business. Not anyone else's.",
">\n\nTrying to justify yourself?",
">\n\nWhat is unjustifiable here?",
">\n\nI recently visited one. Frankly I just sought for intimacy. I asked them to kiss me and just take it slow. Because that’s what I miss in my life: intimacy.\nI noticed a lot of people have an opinion on it. I can never tell my parents nor my friends. You can only blame me to be socially maladjusted. I have tried all things I could in dating beforehand and frankly it didn’t work.\nSo… I think it’s something in my character to seek for a prostitute. I don’t think it should be condemned because everyone seeks what I am seeking. Only difference is some people can find it over Tinder or in their social circles, and I have to pay for it. Sorry, I wish it was different but it isn’t.",
">\n\nInteresting post. Thanks.\nWhat would you see that would make you change your mind?\n\nsex is considered intimate and special to some people \n\nWhat if sex is objectively intimate and special, as opposed to “some people” finding it subjectively intimate and special? Would that change your mind?",
">\n\nI think in context of religion and this kind of view yes but if you lack this, you are Into causal sex ,and support sex work I don't get it",
">\n\nThanks for the response.\nLet’s back up…I think we are missing each other. The sub is called r/changemyview, so I first want to understand your view and then have you tell me what would change it. Alternatively, if nothing would change it, I would like to know that, too.\nI think your argument is the following:\nP1: Moral oppobrium is an appropriate response only to moral failures.\nP2: There is no moral aspect to a consensual sex act.\nC1: Therefore, moral oppobrium is not appropriate for (uncoerced) sex workers and their patrons.\nDo I have that right? If not, please correct me.",
">\n\nYou do",
">\n\nWhat about how awfully the punters treat the women who work in prostitution, as this article (and many others) reveals? Would you not look down on these men because of this?",
">\n\nI would but not all men who hire sex workers do this , also this is not a specifically sex worker problem , it can happen even in the confines of a relationship , do you also look down on men who enter relationships with women or just the men who are abusive because it also applies in the cases of sex work porn is part of sex work\nSome of the other issues come with the job which like it or not the one who aren't trafficked consent to it , like the idea that they don't get hired for other jobs , then things like racism , sexual harassment violence , addiction being a single mom has nothing to do with sex work",
">\n\nIt's seen as a character flaw because people are expected to suppress their need for sex to some extent until they find an actual romantic partner. The fact that they can't do that shows they don't care about the expectation to do so and/or are too focused on getting sex to care.",
">\n\npaying for sex is paying for consent",
">\n\nJust like anybody else who works 8 hours for low pay. I didn't know sex was such a horrible thing, or is it just taboo?",
">\n\nAs a sex worker, thank you for this post. A lot of people don't realize that some humans- are incapable of getting laid on their own. Whether it be physical disabilities or emotional /social issues.... Sometimes paying for sex will be the only time certain people ever get touched intimately, and to take that away from...that's really f* up. \nAnd furthermore; I think it's funny that religious people are totally fine with renting a womb to have a baby- but not my body- which is MINE- for my own reasons (money/pleasure)..."
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😂 I think you are living a lie/joke so...I think sex work and surrogacy are totally cool
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"/u/Due-Lie-8710 (OP) has awarded 7 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nThere's a song I like that speaks on this fairly poetically, so I'd like to start by just directly quoting it:\n\nSo when you bled on the bed as you fed those expectations, as a whore and not a human, you embraced with hesitation the very parameters of all you can be. Not a mother, not an aunt, not a sister who's not subdued. Because dignity's not physical, and your flesh means more than you.\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.",
">\n\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.\n\nFirst of all if you aren't trafficked it is just like another job, as for you both being seen as human , make sense hey aren't there to befriend to have sex , you are performing a service, it's like you watching football or a movie, you only see them as footballers ot actors , half of the time they don't care about their personal life, there are some jobs that prevent you from getting any high paying jobs or jobs that involve care , as for the people purchasing it , if you can't purchase it then why should they sell it , you don't actually support sex work, because that would mean accepting the consumer base ad well as the supplier",
">\n\nThat’s a really big if though, sex work isn’t exactly an industry where you will know for sure if the service you’re getting is consensual. individuals who are victims of sexual trafficking, coercion, or just life circumstance aren’t likely to just tell their “customers” if it isn’t consensual. they could endanger themselves or not be aware that they can say something. \nSeeing someone as an object vs seeing them as an individual with a job aren’t the same though? yes we recognize actors and football players by their career choice and how well they are at it, but they’re still people at the end of the day? that’s why they have fanbases, interviews, paparazzi, popularity on social media, movie adaptions of their life exist—people are interested in more than them just doing their job.\nA persons job is no reason to suddenly strip them of their humanity and rights granted them for being such, that kind of mentality is morally skewed and why a lot of people would not support sex work. plus you can’t say it makes sense for sex workers to be see as commodities only and then believe sex work will be consensual. the whole consent part comes from recognizing that this is another person who has their own boundaries and limits beyond just what you want.",
">\n\nokay, that’s a plumber and not a person you’re having sex with. unlike plumbing which is clean cut, sex can include multiple aspects of different kinks and fetishes. You can’t expect a sex worker to be okay with say participating in rape play, anal, scat, and a mirage of other kinks simply because they agreed to sex. Sex is not clean cut, there is more to it. There has to be a boundary somewhere, this is another person body not a pipe.",
">\n\nThat’s like the point? recognizing the boundary and proceeding from there by RESPECTING the boundary because they are another person and not some masturbatory object. What you just said was a consensual interaction. The initial point was that there is no consensual sex without respecting the party that’s giving as a person.",
">\n\nSo... there's a concept of a moral hazard. \nThere's literally no way for an individual to be certain that their prostitute is not being coerced/trafficked. Even if there are some special circumstances where it might be unlikely, certainty is still impossible, and most people frequenting prostitutes are not in those special circumstances.\nSomeone using their services is therefore extremely likely to be comfortable with risking that they are unknowingly raping someone. \nGenerally speaking, people find that disgusting.",
">\n\nIf you eat chocolate (even the stuff with the fair trade sticker) then there's no guarantee that it hasn't come from slave farms which are not uncommon. If you eat chocolate throughout your life then you are almost definitely contributing to slavery. If you visit a prostitute regularly then the chance they're being exploited is anywhere from functioninally 0% to 100%. So why treat the John who might be discerning with scorn and not the chocolate eater who is a much safer bet in having contributed to coerced labour.",
">\n\nIt's worth trying to avoid those situations, but ultimately it's a very false equivalence to hold people responsible for the actions of others, vs. their own personal actions.\nWhen you buy chocolate, you're not actually holding a gun to a slave, someone else is. The right answer to that is to lobby for worker protections for imported goods, and to try to end involuntary servitude within your country as well. \nWhen you have sex with a trafficked person, you personally literally raped them. If you don't have good evidence to know they aren't trafficked, you're personally ok with the possibility you're going to personally rape them. \nBoth might be considered bad. But it's a false equivalence.\nAnd sure... if someone is paying someone for sex when they are personal friends with them, and interact with them outside of prostitution enough to personally know that they aren't being trafficked... and you're sure they aren't lying, scorning them more than at most some light ribbing isn't justified. It's not like \"sugar daddies\" aren't a thing as well. At the very least much less disapprobation would be appropriate.",
">\n\nIn both cases, there is a customer receiving a service provided by a potentially enslaved person. They are morally equivalent. It makes no sense to say “sure I bought the slavery chocolate, but you can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”",
">\n\n\nyou can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”\n\nThe slavers actions are distinct from the consumers' actions for most things. \nThis is an actual important difference when it comes to prostitution. \nIgnoring that fundamental difference doesn't make it go away, and it's entirely reasonable for someone to make that distinction.",
">\n\nThe slaver and consumer are different people who take different actions in the prostitution scenario. The consumer in both scenarios is taking the risk of being immoral. If I force you to be my slave that’s still immoral whether or not I put you to work in my brothel or mine or factory or fishing boat. And if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever, it’s equivalent.",
">\n\n\nAnd if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever , it’s equivalent.\n\nThis is where the false equivalence comes in. \nSomeone making products with slave labor is not renting out a slave to the consumer so that they consumer can force them to perform mining for the consumer. They are enslaving the labor to create a product, and selling the product. Products don't have rights to violate. The only person violating the rights of the slave is the slaver.\nSomeone trafficking a victim is renting out that victim so that the consumer can rape them.",
">\n\nIf the sex is only contractual to you? Why not just \"hook up.\" Why pay? You will never be able to guarantee they are not being trafficked. If they are, they are not going to tell you. I think the idea of money exchanging hands for sex is the why most have a problem. The idea that you are giving a woman money for sex has been historically seen as her being a whore. \nI am not saying she is. I am saying that from the time it first exchanged hands, that is what it was. Men who could not find a woman, paid a woman. Why do you want others to see it differently? Yes, there will be outliers that will enjoy the work. But those are going to be ones that, like the escort, chose it, and charge what they want. Not the typical street hookers on the corner with pimps to pay. \nProve they are not trafficked, they work for themselves, they are clean (of both drugs and diseases - because they are taking care of themselves and being safe), and that they are a sex worker because they enjoy the work or that that chose the work. Then, hey! Pay 'em and get to it!",
">\n\nI think it is morally unhealthy to normalize it. Even though you have to be an adult to smoke weed, we definitely see weed as a normal thing to do in moderation compared to a few decades ago. This is how we would see prostitution if it was normalized. And I think weed has a lot less complications than legalizing prostitution. A LOT!\nSex work online is a lot safer and requires a lot less mental issues to engage in and promote. But even then, I know some sex workers (online type), and they are scarred by the stuff they have seen when it comes to their job. They have told me stories that are extremely disturbing. These are women who just do stuff by themselves. Not working with a porn company and other people.\nAlso, sex has a huge reputation for being violent and demoralizing towards women in general. I'd assume those numbers would be much higher in men looking to pay for sex. You'd have to have extremely strict and tight regulations for this sort of thing, which would take the fun out of it for a lot of people. And even then, there would still be many mistakes that would happen before we find out all the regulations that are needed. And I don't think we could ever make it mentally and physically safe for women.\nNow, do I think it should be decriminalized for prostitutes? Definitely. I don't see them as disgusting. I feel quite bad for them. Most of them were trafficked at a young age. Do I see men wanting to pay for sex as disgusting? Not necessarily. It depends on the person and the situation. However, this isn't a simple issue where if we just \"stop judging people,\" everything will be fine.",
">\n\nDecriminalizing prostitution for both those selling and buying is demonstrably safer for prostitutes. If it is criminal for the buyer but not the seller, the buyer is often highly defensive and paranoid about the seller, specifically the possibility that they may be working with law enforcement. The buyer will often push to do it in a highly isolated setting as well. These things increase violence that sex workers face, and the averages go down in places where it is decriminalized to both buy and sell. If you have a designated work place for it and no one needs to be distrustful and worried about being arrested, that is the safest situation for all involved. \nWe may disagree with buying it for whatever moral reason, but if we choose to criminalize the purchase of it, we are prioritizing punishing behavior we morally disagree with over prioritizing the safety of those involved, which I can't get behind.",
">\n\nBut there are so many more facets to the safety of legalizing it for the buyer other than them being pushy or wanting to do it in a hidden area. If we legalized it, it still wouldn't really help any of the points I made or is even something that is so overwhelmingly an issue compared to the points I made.",
">\n\nSo long as we have to work to live, all jobs are coercive, even sex work. I’m skeptical that there can ever be a consensual exchange within our current economic context.",
">\n\nExactly , I get sex is intimate but if you are willing to view sex work as any other job , you should be willing to treat it as such",
">\n\nSex work has certain occupational hazards that cannot be regulated away. OSHA (in the US) dictates that a person cannot be subject to bodily fluids without proper PPE in the workplace, and often johns just need to pay more to not wear a condom. Imagine a construction site paying workers more to not wear a hard hat. The greater potential for bodily harm is intrinsic to the work, and it will always be unsafe.",
">\n\nTrue but this doesn't really answer my question",
">\n\nMy point is that treating it like any other job is not ethically possible due to hazardous conditions",
">\n\nThis is a bad take.\nI’d wager prostitution doesn’t even rank in the top ten dangerous jobs by capita.",
">\n\nThat really depends. A gas station cashier likely has a higher risk of being killed. But a quick Google shows sex workers are thirty times more likely to get Aids than the general population. They're also at ridiculously high rates of risk to their mental health. Ptsd is common. Also, yes, sitting at a counter in a gas station is technically dangerous. But it is different type of danger compared to someone fucking them in the ass while shoving a sock in their mouth and calling them a dirty whore. When this happens to a prostitute, since she isn't dead, then all good right?! :) Her job isn't dangerous, she's still alive! And they're really not paid much. Average pay for a sex scene in porn for a woman is around $600, for the guy it's like a hundred. For prostitution you're looking at a hundred to two hundred dollars. \nAlso, if you're in the us. Good luck affording health insurance as an independent contractor engaged in sex work.",
">\n\nI’m not exactly impressed with the American system so if you’re criticising Americans health system then fuck yeah more power to you.\nYou raise fantastic points about there being non lethal dangers in sex work that are worth considering and harder to measure.\nThat being said, sit for a while and think about whether you think that sex workers are in a job so dangerous that it deserves its own category and shouldn’t even be allowed. (This is what the commenter I was responding to was claiming)\nI’m comfortable I’d ban lumberjack as a profession long before I considered banning prostitution based on relative level of danger and conditions.\nI don’t have a specific statistic but soldiers at an educated guess would probably be more likely to experience danger and mental issues but the commenter I responded to probably never thought for one second about banning soldiers on that basis.\nIt’s clear bias, being rationalised as something it isn’t.",
">\n\nIt's decriminalised where I live, which means women can arrange anything themselves. So you can have a strip club with a \"hotel\" above it. Basically 100% of the workers are foreign, from places like Ukraine. Russia, Moldova, Romania. Etc. It's a strange aspect which isn't often brought up. But\"legalizing \" almost always results on foreign workers undercutting any local workforce. How can a 26 year old American girl from the burbs compete with an 18 year Thai girl? One is fine doing work at basically the rates of a full time McDonald's employee, while the other isn't. And of course, that breeds the type of people you'd imagine running the business. Even in places like Amsterdam, where there's tons of regulation, you get the same trafficking you see anywhere else.\nSo morally. I've got zero problem. But I've just never seen a model that can actually ensure safety for everyone involved.",
">\n\nWell culture is everything isn't it? Of there wasn't so much sex tourism from places that have prostitution illegal there would probably be less demand wouldn't there? Less demand would make the whole industry safer imo due to the loss of money driving the search for foreign market girls\nLike imagine the whole world has a brothel just down the block. Does that make it more safe just by sheer volume and normality?",
">\n\nFirstly, i'm not religious, i'm sex-positive and the sex lives of strangers rarely concerns me. I don't think paying for these services makes you a \"bad\" person, nor a \"disgusting\" one.. but for me, it would affect your desirability to me as a partner. To me attraction is a big thing, and i'll be honest, I see it as kind of lame. Not morally corrupt but just ...desperate. \nI would want my partner to be someone that women wanted to have sex with, not the man that they had sex with as a purely profitable transaction. Whilst it's consensual, when you involve money or a benefit other than sex, the line slightly blurs, and I find it becomes icky. \nIt's not even that I think my partner should only have had strictly intimate and personable relations... but the question does spring to mind of \"is sex that has been paid for truly consensual? can you guarantee that?\" Even popular Pornstars who previously agreed to do porn and made careers out of it have stories where they later felt disgusted by what they've had to do but were so enamored by the money, they went through with it. Sex workers will ALWAYS sell a positive image to their clients, part of their job is to make you feel desired, but you never truly know the reality. \nAll in all, it can be seen as \"bad\" or \"disgusting\" because monetary rewards affects the lines of purely consensual sex. The same way it can be icky for a boss to have sex with the intern, the same way directors have sex with actresses that want to star in their movies, and the same way rockstars have sex with their fans. Doesn't make 'em rapists, but it's why people won't look at it as respectable.",
">\n\nyou aren’t sex positive if you think paying for sex is desperate.\ndoes paying for alcohol mean you’re desperate for happiness? some people want to have fun so they buy drinks, others find more fun in sex. as long as sex work is consensual and not the result of pimping or some other form of coercion then I don’t see any harm or how it would be desperate.\nthere are tangible benefits to buying sex vs finding it “naturally” that i don’t think you’re considering. \nwith sex workers you’re safer and don’t have to worry about pregnancy, theft, psychotic women, and other risks that come from random hookups with strangers or even casual dating. there’s also the whole “i don’t need to put time and effort into finding and flirting with someone” when it can be on demand. yea making food at home is usually cheaper and better tasting than takeout but sometimes you’re lazy and want a pizza delivered.",
">\n\nI’m generally sex positive to consensual sex between people. However, everything falls on a spectrum and I don’t think you have to have a certain view on every avenue to be as such. Much like you can love your job, your country or your friends but that doesn’t mean you can’t provide any forms of criticism nor must you love EVERY aspect of these things. \nI have no disdain for people who hook up on dating apps, clubs, attend sex parties etc. I will always believe sex workers should have right to practice and do so in a safe environment. I also wouldn’t stop their client base either, it’s not my business, but there are ethical implications and I’ve said my view from the perspective of my partner which naturally i hold to a more personable standard. I wouldn’t want to be with someone who puts their sexual desires above the possible implications involved in sex work. \nI do want to touch on your point that as long as it’s not coerced or forced, it’s okay. The ethical implication behind this is that when you involve money, this is not guaranteed. Not all clients will take the time to research the background and extra people involved behind the scenes. The women with pimps and who are trafficked won’t spill those beans to you. Again, there will always be exceptions to the rule. \nI understand that sex work is convenient to many but my perception is not swayed by the mere idea that paying for sex means you get to avoid having to flirt with women. Much like I can understand why people have no choice to purchase fast fashion and I’ll understand the reasoning but that does not mean I should ignore the child labour and poor conditions that make this possible. \nAll in all, I won’t stop you but I’m going to think it’s kinda lame. You can wear an item of clothing, I’ll defend you to wear that clothing and I won’t make you feel bad for wearing it.. but I may not like it myself.",
">\n\nReading your posts made me think of a bird preening it's feathers to attract a mate. I thought it was just you being obtuse untill you brought fashion into this lol\nYou really are just a pair of eyes arnt you. No complexity attached. \"I saw it in the window so I bought it! I didn't even care that it was 500$ I just wanted it because the other girls were eyeing it down and I just HAD to have it💅\"",
">\n\nI genuinely have no idea what you’re trying to convey. The topic of fashion was merely to represent that there are often complexities and nuance. So yes, I can be sex positive but I don’t necessarily have to agree with all the variances within the to topic of sex. \nI assume I’ve hit a nerve for your style of response.",
">\n\nNot sure about everywhere else but in America being as prostitution is illegal a lot of the situations the workers are in are really sad, depressing and predatory. If you take a look at the book “Pimp” by ice berg slim for example a lot of the industry isn’t the ideal some just wants to make money like any other job and the pimp is just a bodyguard/manger,\nA lot of it involves a tone of manipulation and dependency and when you add on the ones where safe sex isn’t a priority and the literal hundreds of partners you engage with in such a short time it all comes off as kinda gross.",
">\n\nSex, when a service, is not the same as any other service. There is a difference between driving a person somewhere in a taxi and having your face fucked and ejaculated on by a stranger. As many have stated before and as you can see in 99% of porn is that sex as a service is usually degrading towards women. Just look at the front page of any given porn site. Most of it is not, in any way, esteeming of the women participating. Look at goddamn blowjob videos. The women are not giving a blowjob - they are getting their face fucked. Extra points if they have to gag and be obviously physically uncomfortable and struggling to breathe. Dude it is just not the same as someone operating a forklift or making flower arrangements. Most of it is degrading and the more degrading the more klicks - the more people who frequent porn sites like it. And it's the same with prostitution. Read about what these women have experienced. It is plain awful. Sure if you are talking about a utopia where you can be 100% sure the prostitutes are there on their own terms and if every single customer is a loving, caring, gentle person taking care of the sex workers needs as much as their own - then yes, there would not be anything wrong with it. But that is just not how it is.\nHow hard is it, even in a healthy loving relationship, to always have both partners perfectly satisfied and met their needs sexually?\nSex is as intimate as human interaction can get and buying that from someone is taking all incentive away to treat the other person as good as you would treat a partner who you love and/or actively want to enjoy the time with you.\nAnd that is what disgusts people about people who frequent prostitutes. The possibility of being a person who, as long as they pay for something or feel like they've done their dues, doesn't give a shit about what the person on the other end is experiencing.\nedit: Because of other comments from OP I accused them of debating rather than discussing and suggested if they were seeking moral validation for what they do, which in itself was not part of a discussion really. I deleted that part because it serves no neutral purpose.",
">\n\nWell in this context not special but very very different, in the way that it is way more intimate, there's actually a part of ones body entering the others. There is exchange of bodily fluids. Those services are different from each other the same way as a massage is different to shoving items across a scanner, just times ten. One is naked, one experiences pleasure (or great pain) and one is not using their body to do something, they are having their body be used by someone else. That can leave physical bruises and mental scars because one is extremely vulnerable in the act.",
">\n\nMy view on it is that the act in itself is not wrong for anybody involved, but the character implication is what causes it to be met with disgust by some.\nIf you have money and you pay for sex from somebody who is willing, then it's no problem, but the issue comes when you delve into why they might be paying for sex.\nMany people experience sex in a consensual environment with a person who desires sex with them, and no money is involved. Many would view this as a very normal and important part of life.\nThe question that comes up subconsciously and/or consciously is \"why does this person need to pay for sex?\"\nIt could be that they have undeveloped social skills and this coild be deemed as a negative trait that needs to be worked on.\nAnother reason could be an atypically high sex drive, which could also be perceived as sex addiction.\nThese are not unlikely reasons for a person to pay a sex worker for sex and a judgement could be made before understanding more that they possess These sorts of traits that people simply have the desire to avoid.",
">\n\nThis is the correct answer. \nThe reason people look down on people who hire hookers has nothing to do with sex trafficking, or what really qualifies as consent, or any of the other comments in this thread. I think a good example is your iPhone. It is basically made with slave labor, but nobody really gives a shit. They just happily use their phone. If they actually did give a shit, they wouldn't buy iPhones. Also, prostitution has been around basically since the beginning of time. It has always been a part of human relationships and always will be.\nFor better or worse, the reason people look down on people who hire hookers is that it implies you are deficient in some way. If you were better looking or had better social skills or had more control over your base urges you would not need to hire a hooker. \nPersonally, I look at it like a wheelchair. I dont need a wheelchair and I really hope I never need one, but it is not fair (and downright cruel) for me to look down on someone who does use one. Are they deficient in some way? Yes. They can't walk. Do they deserve admonishment or judgement? No. Not at all.",
">\n\nYou're not paying too have sex with a prostitute. You're paying to use her body as a masturbatory aid.\nProstitution reduces women to being commodities, objects, things. Every other job, you're providing a skill to produce or exchange goods and services. Prostitution, the woman is the thing you're purchasing. The women are the commodities, they're not viewed as humen, they're viewed as consumable goods.",
">\n\nJust like almost every other Job, and any other form of sex work like strippers, onlyfans model , some e girl, girls who post theist traps on social media, so what makes those empowering and not this",
">\n\nStrippers, only fans, e-girls are not empowering. It's gross. When it comes down to it, they're sluts. And they're no better than their fuck-boy counterparts.",
">\n\nOK fair so the difference in worldview is what makes argumen unsound to you !delta",
">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/19jals80 (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nYou just can never know for sure whether the sex worker is being trafficked or not. You can't assume they'd tell you the truth if you asked. They might endanger themselves by telling you the truth. The sex worker wants money, and is willing to have some sexual contact with you in order to get the money. But fundamentally, they're permitting you to do something to their body that they do not want in and of itself. Therefore, their consent is dubious and conditional upon your payment. To me, that's not sufficient consent. I want someone I'm having sex with to genuinely, enthusiastically want to have sex with me for the sole purpose of enjoying sex with me. I don't want to use people as means to ends, and I don't want to be used as a means to anyone else's ends.\nI don't morally disapprove of sex work. I just wouldn't support it because it doesn't provide a good or service that interests me. I want actual human connection, which is something money cannot buy. I do morally disapprove of a system that drives people into sex work to get by or get ahead.",
">\n\n\nYou just can never know for sure whether the sex worker is being trafficked or not. \n\nThis argument can be made for any form of low-skilled labor.\nThere is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that sex work uses slavery more often than say construction work or weaving baskets.\nYour argument applies just as easily to buying a shoe, because it could have been constructed by slaves.",
">\n\nYour whataboutism does nothing to resolve the moral question.",
">\n\n“whataboutism” is the new trendy defence for people who've been shown a reductiō ad absurdum it seems.\nI'm showing that your argument can just as easily be used to argue the absurd, and that therefore it can't hold much water. Unless one were to believe in the absurd, and would believe that there is a problem with buying shoes or about any product.",
">\n\nAgain, none of what you've said addresses the moral dilemma in question. Moral questions can't be hand-waved away with empty rhetorical devices. This is still a question of how our choices impact the lives and well-being of others. The fact that we live in a world run by greed does not alleviate the moral burden of making this decision responsibly.",
">\n\nI don't think there is a solid \" yes \" or \" no \" answer to this question. There are so many ( but if's) that it's hard to give more than just an opinion.\n\n\nSpeaking from a Christian perspective, morally, yeah, it's wrong. Because sex is seen as something that's sacred that should be shared between 2 consenting married adults. \n\n\nBut if a woman isn't being forced in any type of way, shape, or form and she simply enjoys cash & realized opening her legs to buyers can get her lots of cash, that's her business. Not anyone else's.",
">\n\nTrying to justify yourself?",
">\n\nWhat is unjustifiable here?",
">\n\nI recently visited one. Frankly I just sought for intimacy. I asked them to kiss me and just take it slow. Because that’s what I miss in my life: intimacy.\nI noticed a lot of people have an opinion on it. I can never tell my parents nor my friends. You can only blame me to be socially maladjusted. I have tried all things I could in dating beforehand and frankly it didn’t work.\nSo… I think it’s something in my character to seek for a prostitute. I don’t think it should be condemned because everyone seeks what I am seeking. Only difference is some people can find it over Tinder or in their social circles, and I have to pay for it. Sorry, I wish it was different but it isn’t.",
">\n\nInteresting post. Thanks.\nWhat would you see that would make you change your mind?\n\nsex is considered intimate and special to some people \n\nWhat if sex is objectively intimate and special, as opposed to “some people” finding it subjectively intimate and special? Would that change your mind?",
">\n\nI think in context of religion and this kind of view yes but if you lack this, you are Into causal sex ,and support sex work I don't get it",
">\n\nThanks for the response.\nLet’s back up…I think we are missing each other. The sub is called r/changemyview, so I first want to understand your view and then have you tell me what would change it. Alternatively, if nothing would change it, I would like to know that, too.\nI think your argument is the following:\nP1: Moral oppobrium is an appropriate response only to moral failures.\nP2: There is no moral aspect to a consensual sex act.\nC1: Therefore, moral oppobrium is not appropriate for (uncoerced) sex workers and their patrons.\nDo I have that right? If not, please correct me.",
">\n\nYou do",
">\n\nWhat about how awfully the punters treat the women who work in prostitution, as this article (and many others) reveals? Would you not look down on these men because of this?",
">\n\nI would but not all men who hire sex workers do this , also this is not a specifically sex worker problem , it can happen even in the confines of a relationship , do you also look down on men who enter relationships with women or just the men who are abusive because it also applies in the cases of sex work porn is part of sex work\nSome of the other issues come with the job which like it or not the one who aren't trafficked consent to it , like the idea that they don't get hired for other jobs , then things like racism , sexual harassment violence , addiction being a single mom has nothing to do with sex work",
">\n\nIt's seen as a character flaw because people are expected to suppress their need for sex to some extent until they find an actual romantic partner. The fact that they can't do that shows they don't care about the expectation to do so and/or are too focused on getting sex to care.",
">\n\npaying for sex is paying for consent",
">\n\nJust like anybody else who works 8 hours for low pay. I didn't know sex was such a horrible thing, or is it just taboo?",
">\n\nAs a sex worker, thank you for this post. A lot of people don't realize that some humans- are incapable of getting laid on their own. Whether it be physical disabilities or emotional /social issues.... Sometimes paying for sex will be the only time certain people ever get touched intimately, and to take that away from...that's really f* up. \nAnd furthermore; I think it's funny that religious people are totally fine with renting a womb to have a baby- but not my body- which is MINE- for my own reasons (money/pleasure)...",
">\n\nI am religious, and am definitely NOT okay with renting wombs. In fact, I see it as far more reprehensible than sex work."
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I don't think people see paying for sex as disgusting so long one be pretty and attractive, to be honest.
People just assume that the people that do so are unattractive, and that's probably something that's often true because why pay a fortune for something that many get obtain for free?
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[
"/u/Due-Lie-8710 (OP) has awarded 7 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nThere's a song I like that speaks on this fairly poetically, so I'd like to start by just directly quoting it:\n\nSo when you bled on the bed as you fed those expectations, as a whore and not a human, you embraced with hesitation the very parameters of all you can be. Not a mother, not an aunt, not a sister who's not subdued. Because dignity's not physical, and your flesh means more than you.\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.",
">\n\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.\n\nFirst of all if you aren't trafficked it is just like another job, as for you both being seen as human , make sense hey aren't there to befriend to have sex , you are performing a service, it's like you watching football or a movie, you only see them as footballers ot actors , half of the time they don't care about their personal life, there are some jobs that prevent you from getting any high paying jobs or jobs that involve care , as for the people purchasing it , if you can't purchase it then why should they sell it , you don't actually support sex work, because that would mean accepting the consumer base ad well as the supplier",
">\n\nThat’s a really big if though, sex work isn’t exactly an industry where you will know for sure if the service you’re getting is consensual. individuals who are victims of sexual trafficking, coercion, or just life circumstance aren’t likely to just tell their “customers” if it isn’t consensual. they could endanger themselves or not be aware that they can say something. \nSeeing someone as an object vs seeing them as an individual with a job aren’t the same though? yes we recognize actors and football players by their career choice and how well they are at it, but they’re still people at the end of the day? that’s why they have fanbases, interviews, paparazzi, popularity on social media, movie adaptions of their life exist—people are interested in more than them just doing their job.\nA persons job is no reason to suddenly strip them of their humanity and rights granted them for being such, that kind of mentality is morally skewed and why a lot of people would not support sex work. plus you can’t say it makes sense for sex workers to be see as commodities only and then believe sex work will be consensual. the whole consent part comes from recognizing that this is another person who has their own boundaries and limits beyond just what you want.",
">\n\nokay, that’s a plumber and not a person you’re having sex with. unlike plumbing which is clean cut, sex can include multiple aspects of different kinks and fetishes. You can’t expect a sex worker to be okay with say participating in rape play, anal, scat, and a mirage of other kinks simply because they agreed to sex. Sex is not clean cut, there is more to it. There has to be a boundary somewhere, this is another person body not a pipe.",
">\n\nThat’s like the point? recognizing the boundary and proceeding from there by RESPECTING the boundary because they are another person and not some masturbatory object. What you just said was a consensual interaction. The initial point was that there is no consensual sex without respecting the party that’s giving as a person.",
">\n\nSo... there's a concept of a moral hazard. \nThere's literally no way for an individual to be certain that their prostitute is not being coerced/trafficked. Even if there are some special circumstances where it might be unlikely, certainty is still impossible, and most people frequenting prostitutes are not in those special circumstances.\nSomeone using their services is therefore extremely likely to be comfortable with risking that they are unknowingly raping someone. \nGenerally speaking, people find that disgusting.",
">\n\nIf you eat chocolate (even the stuff with the fair trade sticker) then there's no guarantee that it hasn't come from slave farms which are not uncommon. If you eat chocolate throughout your life then you are almost definitely contributing to slavery. If you visit a prostitute regularly then the chance they're being exploited is anywhere from functioninally 0% to 100%. So why treat the John who might be discerning with scorn and not the chocolate eater who is a much safer bet in having contributed to coerced labour.",
">\n\nIt's worth trying to avoid those situations, but ultimately it's a very false equivalence to hold people responsible for the actions of others, vs. their own personal actions.\nWhen you buy chocolate, you're not actually holding a gun to a slave, someone else is. The right answer to that is to lobby for worker protections for imported goods, and to try to end involuntary servitude within your country as well. \nWhen you have sex with a trafficked person, you personally literally raped them. If you don't have good evidence to know they aren't trafficked, you're personally ok with the possibility you're going to personally rape them. \nBoth might be considered bad. But it's a false equivalence.\nAnd sure... if someone is paying someone for sex when they are personal friends with them, and interact with them outside of prostitution enough to personally know that they aren't being trafficked... and you're sure they aren't lying, scorning them more than at most some light ribbing isn't justified. It's not like \"sugar daddies\" aren't a thing as well. At the very least much less disapprobation would be appropriate.",
">\n\nIn both cases, there is a customer receiving a service provided by a potentially enslaved person. They are morally equivalent. It makes no sense to say “sure I bought the slavery chocolate, but you can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”",
">\n\n\nyou can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”\n\nThe slavers actions are distinct from the consumers' actions for most things. \nThis is an actual important difference when it comes to prostitution. \nIgnoring that fundamental difference doesn't make it go away, and it's entirely reasonable for someone to make that distinction.",
">\n\nThe slaver and consumer are different people who take different actions in the prostitution scenario. The consumer in both scenarios is taking the risk of being immoral. If I force you to be my slave that’s still immoral whether or not I put you to work in my brothel or mine or factory or fishing boat. And if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever, it’s equivalent.",
">\n\n\nAnd if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever , it’s equivalent.\n\nThis is where the false equivalence comes in. \nSomeone making products with slave labor is not renting out a slave to the consumer so that they consumer can force them to perform mining for the consumer. They are enslaving the labor to create a product, and selling the product. Products don't have rights to violate. The only person violating the rights of the slave is the slaver.\nSomeone trafficking a victim is renting out that victim so that the consumer can rape them.",
">\n\nIf the sex is only contractual to you? Why not just \"hook up.\" Why pay? You will never be able to guarantee they are not being trafficked. If they are, they are not going to tell you. I think the idea of money exchanging hands for sex is the why most have a problem. The idea that you are giving a woman money for sex has been historically seen as her being a whore. \nI am not saying she is. I am saying that from the time it first exchanged hands, that is what it was. Men who could not find a woman, paid a woman. Why do you want others to see it differently? Yes, there will be outliers that will enjoy the work. But those are going to be ones that, like the escort, chose it, and charge what they want. Not the typical street hookers on the corner with pimps to pay. \nProve they are not trafficked, they work for themselves, they are clean (of both drugs and diseases - because they are taking care of themselves and being safe), and that they are a sex worker because they enjoy the work or that that chose the work. Then, hey! Pay 'em and get to it!",
">\n\nI think it is morally unhealthy to normalize it. Even though you have to be an adult to smoke weed, we definitely see weed as a normal thing to do in moderation compared to a few decades ago. This is how we would see prostitution if it was normalized. And I think weed has a lot less complications than legalizing prostitution. A LOT!\nSex work online is a lot safer and requires a lot less mental issues to engage in and promote. But even then, I know some sex workers (online type), and they are scarred by the stuff they have seen when it comes to their job. They have told me stories that are extremely disturbing. These are women who just do stuff by themselves. Not working with a porn company and other people.\nAlso, sex has a huge reputation for being violent and demoralizing towards women in general. I'd assume those numbers would be much higher in men looking to pay for sex. You'd have to have extremely strict and tight regulations for this sort of thing, which would take the fun out of it for a lot of people. And even then, there would still be many mistakes that would happen before we find out all the regulations that are needed. And I don't think we could ever make it mentally and physically safe for women.\nNow, do I think it should be decriminalized for prostitutes? Definitely. I don't see them as disgusting. I feel quite bad for them. Most of them were trafficked at a young age. Do I see men wanting to pay for sex as disgusting? Not necessarily. It depends on the person and the situation. However, this isn't a simple issue where if we just \"stop judging people,\" everything will be fine.",
">\n\nDecriminalizing prostitution for both those selling and buying is demonstrably safer for prostitutes. If it is criminal for the buyer but not the seller, the buyer is often highly defensive and paranoid about the seller, specifically the possibility that they may be working with law enforcement. The buyer will often push to do it in a highly isolated setting as well. These things increase violence that sex workers face, and the averages go down in places where it is decriminalized to both buy and sell. If you have a designated work place for it and no one needs to be distrustful and worried about being arrested, that is the safest situation for all involved. \nWe may disagree with buying it for whatever moral reason, but if we choose to criminalize the purchase of it, we are prioritizing punishing behavior we morally disagree with over prioritizing the safety of those involved, which I can't get behind.",
">\n\nBut there are so many more facets to the safety of legalizing it for the buyer other than them being pushy or wanting to do it in a hidden area. If we legalized it, it still wouldn't really help any of the points I made or is even something that is so overwhelmingly an issue compared to the points I made.",
">\n\nSo long as we have to work to live, all jobs are coercive, even sex work. I’m skeptical that there can ever be a consensual exchange within our current economic context.",
">\n\nExactly , I get sex is intimate but if you are willing to view sex work as any other job , you should be willing to treat it as such",
">\n\nSex work has certain occupational hazards that cannot be regulated away. OSHA (in the US) dictates that a person cannot be subject to bodily fluids without proper PPE in the workplace, and often johns just need to pay more to not wear a condom. Imagine a construction site paying workers more to not wear a hard hat. The greater potential for bodily harm is intrinsic to the work, and it will always be unsafe.",
">\n\nTrue but this doesn't really answer my question",
">\n\nMy point is that treating it like any other job is not ethically possible due to hazardous conditions",
">\n\nThis is a bad take.\nI’d wager prostitution doesn’t even rank in the top ten dangerous jobs by capita.",
">\n\nThat really depends. A gas station cashier likely has a higher risk of being killed. But a quick Google shows sex workers are thirty times more likely to get Aids than the general population. They're also at ridiculously high rates of risk to their mental health. Ptsd is common. Also, yes, sitting at a counter in a gas station is technically dangerous. But it is different type of danger compared to someone fucking them in the ass while shoving a sock in their mouth and calling them a dirty whore. When this happens to a prostitute, since she isn't dead, then all good right?! :) Her job isn't dangerous, she's still alive! And they're really not paid much. Average pay for a sex scene in porn for a woman is around $600, for the guy it's like a hundred. For prostitution you're looking at a hundred to two hundred dollars. \nAlso, if you're in the us. Good luck affording health insurance as an independent contractor engaged in sex work.",
">\n\nI’m not exactly impressed with the American system so if you’re criticising Americans health system then fuck yeah more power to you.\nYou raise fantastic points about there being non lethal dangers in sex work that are worth considering and harder to measure.\nThat being said, sit for a while and think about whether you think that sex workers are in a job so dangerous that it deserves its own category and shouldn’t even be allowed. (This is what the commenter I was responding to was claiming)\nI’m comfortable I’d ban lumberjack as a profession long before I considered banning prostitution based on relative level of danger and conditions.\nI don’t have a specific statistic but soldiers at an educated guess would probably be more likely to experience danger and mental issues but the commenter I responded to probably never thought for one second about banning soldiers on that basis.\nIt’s clear bias, being rationalised as something it isn’t.",
">\n\nIt's decriminalised where I live, which means women can arrange anything themselves. So you can have a strip club with a \"hotel\" above it. Basically 100% of the workers are foreign, from places like Ukraine. Russia, Moldova, Romania. Etc. It's a strange aspect which isn't often brought up. But\"legalizing \" almost always results on foreign workers undercutting any local workforce. How can a 26 year old American girl from the burbs compete with an 18 year Thai girl? One is fine doing work at basically the rates of a full time McDonald's employee, while the other isn't. And of course, that breeds the type of people you'd imagine running the business. Even in places like Amsterdam, where there's tons of regulation, you get the same trafficking you see anywhere else.\nSo morally. I've got zero problem. But I've just never seen a model that can actually ensure safety for everyone involved.",
">\n\nWell culture is everything isn't it? Of there wasn't so much sex tourism from places that have prostitution illegal there would probably be less demand wouldn't there? Less demand would make the whole industry safer imo due to the loss of money driving the search for foreign market girls\nLike imagine the whole world has a brothel just down the block. Does that make it more safe just by sheer volume and normality?",
">\n\nFirstly, i'm not religious, i'm sex-positive and the sex lives of strangers rarely concerns me. I don't think paying for these services makes you a \"bad\" person, nor a \"disgusting\" one.. but for me, it would affect your desirability to me as a partner. To me attraction is a big thing, and i'll be honest, I see it as kind of lame. Not morally corrupt but just ...desperate. \nI would want my partner to be someone that women wanted to have sex with, not the man that they had sex with as a purely profitable transaction. Whilst it's consensual, when you involve money or a benefit other than sex, the line slightly blurs, and I find it becomes icky. \nIt's not even that I think my partner should only have had strictly intimate and personable relations... but the question does spring to mind of \"is sex that has been paid for truly consensual? can you guarantee that?\" Even popular Pornstars who previously agreed to do porn and made careers out of it have stories where they later felt disgusted by what they've had to do but were so enamored by the money, they went through with it. Sex workers will ALWAYS sell a positive image to their clients, part of their job is to make you feel desired, but you never truly know the reality. \nAll in all, it can be seen as \"bad\" or \"disgusting\" because monetary rewards affects the lines of purely consensual sex. The same way it can be icky for a boss to have sex with the intern, the same way directors have sex with actresses that want to star in their movies, and the same way rockstars have sex with their fans. Doesn't make 'em rapists, but it's why people won't look at it as respectable.",
">\n\nyou aren’t sex positive if you think paying for sex is desperate.\ndoes paying for alcohol mean you’re desperate for happiness? some people want to have fun so they buy drinks, others find more fun in sex. as long as sex work is consensual and not the result of pimping or some other form of coercion then I don’t see any harm or how it would be desperate.\nthere are tangible benefits to buying sex vs finding it “naturally” that i don’t think you’re considering. \nwith sex workers you’re safer and don’t have to worry about pregnancy, theft, psychotic women, and other risks that come from random hookups with strangers or even casual dating. there’s also the whole “i don’t need to put time and effort into finding and flirting with someone” when it can be on demand. yea making food at home is usually cheaper and better tasting than takeout but sometimes you’re lazy and want a pizza delivered.",
">\n\nI’m generally sex positive to consensual sex between people. However, everything falls on a spectrum and I don’t think you have to have a certain view on every avenue to be as such. Much like you can love your job, your country or your friends but that doesn’t mean you can’t provide any forms of criticism nor must you love EVERY aspect of these things. \nI have no disdain for people who hook up on dating apps, clubs, attend sex parties etc. I will always believe sex workers should have right to practice and do so in a safe environment. I also wouldn’t stop their client base either, it’s not my business, but there are ethical implications and I’ve said my view from the perspective of my partner which naturally i hold to a more personable standard. I wouldn’t want to be with someone who puts their sexual desires above the possible implications involved in sex work. \nI do want to touch on your point that as long as it’s not coerced or forced, it’s okay. The ethical implication behind this is that when you involve money, this is not guaranteed. Not all clients will take the time to research the background and extra people involved behind the scenes. The women with pimps and who are trafficked won’t spill those beans to you. Again, there will always be exceptions to the rule. \nI understand that sex work is convenient to many but my perception is not swayed by the mere idea that paying for sex means you get to avoid having to flirt with women. Much like I can understand why people have no choice to purchase fast fashion and I’ll understand the reasoning but that does not mean I should ignore the child labour and poor conditions that make this possible. \nAll in all, I won’t stop you but I’m going to think it’s kinda lame. You can wear an item of clothing, I’ll defend you to wear that clothing and I won’t make you feel bad for wearing it.. but I may not like it myself.",
">\n\nReading your posts made me think of a bird preening it's feathers to attract a mate. I thought it was just you being obtuse untill you brought fashion into this lol\nYou really are just a pair of eyes arnt you. No complexity attached. \"I saw it in the window so I bought it! I didn't even care that it was 500$ I just wanted it because the other girls were eyeing it down and I just HAD to have it💅\"",
">\n\nI genuinely have no idea what you’re trying to convey. The topic of fashion was merely to represent that there are often complexities and nuance. So yes, I can be sex positive but I don’t necessarily have to agree with all the variances within the to topic of sex. \nI assume I’ve hit a nerve for your style of response.",
">\n\nNot sure about everywhere else but in America being as prostitution is illegal a lot of the situations the workers are in are really sad, depressing and predatory. If you take a look at the book “Pimp” by ice berg slim for example a lot of the industry isn’t the ideal some just wants to make money like any other job and the pimp is just a bodyguard/manger,\nA lot of it involves a tone of manipulation and dependency and when you add on the ones where safe sex isn’t a priority and the literal hundreds of partners you engage with in such a short time it all comes off as kinda gross.",
">\n\nSex, when a service, is not the same as any other service. There is a difference between driving a person somewhere in a taxi and having your face fucked and ejaculated on by a stranger. As many have stated before and as you can see in 99% of porn is that sex as a service is usually degrading towards women. Just look at the front page of any given porn site. Most of it is not, in any way, esteeming of the women participating. Look at goddamn blowjob videos. The women are not giving a blowjob - they are getting their face fucked. Extra points if they have to gag and be obviously physically uncomfortable and struggling to breathe. Dude it is just not the same as someone operating a forklift or making flower arrangements. Most of it is degrading and the more degrading the more klicks - the more people who frequent porn sites like it. And it's the same with prostitution. Read about what these women have experienced. It is plain awful. Sure if you are talking about a utopia where you can be 100% sure the prostitutes are there on their own terms and if every single customer is a loving, caring, gentle person taking care of the sex workers needs as much as their own - then yes, there would not be anything wrong with it. But that is just not how it is.\nHow hard is it, even in a healthy loving relationship, to always have both partners perfectly satisfied and met their needs sexually?\nSex is as intimate as human interaction can get and buying that from someone is taking all incentive away to treat the other person as good as you would treat a partner who you love and/or actively want to enjoy the time with you.\nAnd that is what disgusts people about people who frequent prostitutes. The possibility of being a person who, as long as they pay for something or feel like they've done their dues, doesn't give a shit about what the person on the other end is experiencing.\nedit: Because of other comments from OP I accused them of debating rather than discussing and suggested if they were seeking moral validation for what they do, which in itself was not part of a discussion really. I deleted that part because it serves no neutral purpose.",
">\n\nWell in this context not special but very very different, in the way that it is way more intimate, there's actually a part of ones body entering the others. There is exchange of bodily fluids. Those services are different from each other the same way as a massage is different to shoving items across a scanner, just times ten. One is naked, one experiences pleasure (or great pain) and one is not using their body to do something, they are having their body be used by someone else. That can leave physical bruises and mental scars because one is extremely vulnerable in the act.",
">\n\nMy view on it is that the act in itself is not wrong for anybody involved, but the character implication is what causes it to be met with disgust by some.\nIf you have money and you pay for sex from somebody who is willing, then it's no problem, but the issue comes when you delve into why they might be paying for sex.\nMany people experience sex in a consensual environment with a person who desires sex with them, and no money is involved. Many would view this as a very normal and important part of life.\nThe question that comes up subconsciously and/or consciously is \"why does this person need to pay for sex?\"\nIt could be that they have undeveloped social skills and this coild be deemed as a negative trait that needs to be worked on.\nAnother reason could be an atypically high sex drive, which could also be perceived as sex addiction.\nThese are not unlikely reasons for a person to pay a sex worker for sex and a judgement could be made before understanding more that they possess These sorts of traits that people simply have the desire to avoid.",
">\n\nThis is the correct answer. \nThe reason people look down on people who hire hookers has nothing to do with sex trafficking, or what really qualifies as consent, or any of the other comments in this thread. I think a good example is your iPhone. It is basically made with slave labor, but nobody really gives a shit. They just happily use their phone. If they actually did give a shit, they wouldn't buy iPhones. Also, prostitution has been around basically since the beginning of time. It has always been a part of human relationships and always will be.\nFor better or worse, the reason people look down on people who hire hookers is that it implies you are deficient in some way. If you were better looking or had better social skills or had more control over your base urges you would not need to hire a hooker. \nPersonally, I look at it like a wheelchair. I dont need a wheelchair and I really hope I never need one, but it is not fair (and downright cruel) for me to look down on someone who does use one. Are they deficient in some way? Yes. They can't walk. Do they deserve admonishment or judgement? No. Not at all.",
">\n\nYou're not paying too have sex with a prostitute. You're paying to use her body as a masturbatory aid.\nProstitution reduces women to being commodities, objects, things. Every other job, you're providing a skill to produce or exchange goods and services. Prostitution, the woman is the thing you're purchasing. The women are the commodities, they're not viewed as humen, they're viewed as consumable goods.",
">\n\nJust like almost every other Job, and any other form of sex work like strippers, onlyfans model , some e girl, girls who post theist traps on social media, so what makes those empowering and not this",
">\n\nStrippers, only fans, e-girls are not empowering. It's gross. When it comes down to it, they're sluts. And they're no better than their fuck-boy counterparts.",
">\n\nOK fair so the difference in worldview is what makes argumen unsound to you !delta",
">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/19jals80 (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nYou just can never know for sure whether the sex worker is being trafficked or not. You can't assume they'd tell you the truth if you asked. They might endanger themselves by telling you the truth. The sex worker wants money, and is willing to have some sexual contact with you in order to get the money. But fundamentally, they're permitting you to do something to their body that they do not want in and of itself. Therefore, their consent is dubious and conditional upon your payment. To me, that's not sufficient consent. I want someone I'm having sex with to genuinely, enthusiastically want to have sex with me for the sole purpose of enjoying sex with me. I don't want to use people as means to ends, and I don't want to be used as a means to anyone else's ends.\nI don't morally disapprove of sex work. I just wouldn't support it because it doesn't provide a good or service that interests me. I want actual human connection, which is something money cannot buy. I do morally disapprove of a system that drives people into sex work to get by or get ahead.",
">\n\n\nYou just can never know for sure whether the sex worker is being trafficked or not. \n\nThis argument can be made for any form of low-skilled labor.\nThere is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that sex work uses slavery more often than say construction work or weaving baskets.\nYour argument applies just as easily to buying a shoe, because it could have been constructed by slaves.",
">\n\nYour whataboutism does nothing to resolve the moral question.",
">\n\n“whataboutism” is the new trendy defence for people who've been shown a reductiō ad absurdum it seems.\nI'm showing that your argument can just as easily be used to argue the absurd, and that therefore it can't hold much water. Unless one were to believe in the absurd, and would believe that there is a problem with buying shoes or about any product.",
">\n\nAgain, none of what you've said addresses the moral dilemma in question. Moral questions can't be hand-waved away with empty rhetorical devices. This is still a question of how our choices impact the lives and well-being of others. The fact that we live in a world run by greed does not alleviate the moral burden of making this decision responsibly.",
">\n\nI don't think there is a solid \" yes \" or \" no \" answer to this question. There are so many ( but if's) that it's hard to give more than just an opinion.\n\n\nSpeaking from a Christian perspective, morally, yeah, it's wrong. Because sex is seen as something that's sacred that should be shared between 2 consenting married adults. \n\n\nBut if a woman isn't being forced in any type of way, shape, or form and she simply enjoys cash & realized opening her legs to buyers can get her lots of cash, that's her business. Not anyone else's.",
">\n\nTrying to justify yourself?",
">\n\nWhat is unjustifiable here?",
">\n\nI recently visited one. Frankly I just sought for intimacy. I asked them to kiss me and just take it slow. Because that’s what I miss in my life: intimacy.\nI noticed a lot of people have an opinion on it. I can never tell my parents nor my friends. You can only blame me to be socially maladjusted. I have tried all things I could in dating beforehand and frankly it didn’t work.\nSo… I think it’s something in my character to seek for a prostitute. I don’t think it should be condemned because everyone seeks what I am seeking. Only difference is some people can find it over Tinder or in their social circles, and I have to pay for it. Sorry, I wish it was different but it isn’t.",
">\n\nInteresting post. Thanks.\nWhat would you see that would make you change your mind?\n\nsex is considered intimate and special to some people \n\nWhat if sex is objectively intimate and special, as opposed to “some people” finding it subjectively intimate and special? Would that change your mind?",
">\n\nI think in context of religion and this kind of view yes but if you lack this, you are Into causal sex ,and support sex work I don't get it",
">\n\nThanks for the response.\nLet’s back up…I think we are missing each other. The sub is called r/changemyview, so I first want to understand your view and then have you tell me what would change it. Alternatively, if nothing would change it, I would like to know that, too.\nI think your argument is the following:\nP1: Moral oppobrium is an appropriate response only to moral failures.\nP2: There is no moral aspect to a consensual sex act.\nC1: Therefore, moral oppobrium is not appropriate for (uncoerced) sex workers and their patrons.\nDo I have that right? If not, please correct me.",
">\n\nYou do",
">\n\nWhat about how awfully the punters treat the women who work in prostitution, as this article (and many others) reveals? Would you not look down on these men because of this?",
">\n\nI would but not all men who hire sex workers do this , also this is not a specifically sex worker problem , it can happen even in the confines of a relationship , do you also look down on men who enter relationships with women or just the men who are abusive because it also applies in the cases of sex work porn is part of sex work\nSome of the other issues come with the job which like it or not the one who aren't trafficked consent to it , like the idea that they don't get hired for other jobs , then things like racism , sexual harassment violence , addiction being a single mom has nothing to do with sex work",
">\n\nIt's seen as a character flaw because people are expected to suppress their need for sex to some extent until they find an actual romantic partner. The fact that they can't do that shows they don't care about the expectation to do so and/or are too focused on getting sex to care.",
">\n\npaying for sex is paying for consent",
">\n\nJust like anybody else who works 8 hours for low pay. I didn't know sex was such a horrible thing, or is it just taboo?",
">\n\nAs a sex worker, thank you for this post. A lot of people don't realize that some humans- are incapable of getting laid on their own. Whether it be physical disabilities or emotional /social issues.... Sometimes paying for sex will be the only time certain people ever get touched intimately, and to take that away from...that's really f* up. \nAnd furthermore; I think it's funny that religious people are totally fine with renting a womb to have a baby- but not my body- which is MINE- for my own reasons (money/pleasure)...",
">\n\nI am religious, and am definitely NOT okay with renting wombs. In fact, I see it as far more reprehensible than sex work.",
">\n\n😂 I think you are living a lie/joke so...I think sex work and surrogacy are totally cool"
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why pay a fortune for something that many get obtain for free?
Because it's quicker and faster, allows you to fuck 10 great looking chicks at once, puts you in absolute control of what is happening (as they're being hired to pleasure you), and to me it also has a morally iffy and sadistic element which makes it even more enjoyable.
...
But I agree with the first part of your comment though. Besides one single radfem, I've never had a problem with girls judging me for my escort habits, and I'm very open about them.
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[
"/u/Due-Lie-8710 (OP) has awarded 7 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nThere's a song I like that speaks on this fairly poetically, so I'd like to start by just directly quoting it:\n\nSo when you bled on the bed as you fed those expectations, as a whore and not a human, you embraced with hesitation the very parameters of all you can be. Not a mother, not an aunt, not a sister who's not subdued. Because dignity's not physical, and your flesh means more than you.\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.",
">\n\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.\n\nFirst of all if you aren't trafficked it is just like another job, as for you both being seen as human , make sense hey aren't there to befriend to have sex , you are performing a service, it's like you watching football or a movie, you only see them as footballers ot actors , half of the time they don't care about their personal life, there are some jobs that prevent you from getting any high paying jobs or jobs that involve care , as for the people purchasing it , if you can't purchase it then why should they sell it , you don't actually support sex work, because that would mean accepting the consumer base ad well as the supplier",
">\n\nThat’s a really big if though, sex work isn’t exactly an industry where you will know for sure if the service you’re getting is consensual. individuals who are victims of sexual trafficking, coercion, or just life circumstance aren’t likely to just tell their “customers” if it isn’t consensual. they could endanger themselves or not be aware that they can say something. \nSeeing someone as an object vs seeing them as an individual with a job aren’t the same though? yes we recognize actors and football players by their career choice and how well they are at it, but they’re still people at the end of the day? that’s why they have fanbases, interviews, paparazzi, popularity on social media, movie adaptions of their life exist—people are interested in more than them just doing their job.\nA persons job is no reason to suddenly strip them of their humanity and rights granted them for being such, that kind of mentality is morally skewed and why a lot of people would not support sex work. plus you can’t say it makes sense for sex workers to be see as commodities only and then believe sex work will be consensual. the whole consent part comes from recognizing that this is another person who has their own boundaries and limits beyond just what you want.",
">\n\nokay, that’s a plumber and not a person you’re having sex with. unlike plumbing which is clean cut, sex can include multiple aspects of different kinks and fetishes. You can’t expect a sex worker to be okay with say participating in rape play, anal, scat, and a mirage of other kinks simply because they agreed to sex. Sex is not clean cut, there is more to it. There has to be a boundary somewhere, this is another person body not a pipe.",
">\n\nThat’s like the point? recognizing the boundary and proceeding from there by RESPECTING the boundary because they are another person and not some masturbatory object. What you just said was a consensual interaction. The initial point was that there is no consensual sex without respecting the party that’s giving as a person.",
">\n\nSo... there's a concept of a moral hazard. \nThere's literally no way for an individual to be certain that their prostitute is not being coerced/trafficked. Even if there are some special circumstances where it might be unlikely, certainty is still impossible, and most people frequenting prostitutes are not in those special circumstances.\nSomeone using their services is therefore extremely likely to be comfortable with risking that they are unknowingly raping someone. \nGenerally speaking, people find that disgusting.",
">\n\nIf you eat chocolate (even the stuff with the fair trade sticker) then there's no guarantee that it hasn't come from slave farms which are not uncommon. If you eat chocolate throughout your life then you are almost definitely contributing to slavery. If you visit a prostitute regularly then the chance they're being exploited is anywhere from functioninally 0% to 100%. So why treat the John who might be discerning with scorn and not the chocolate eater who is a much safer bet in having contributed to coerced labour.",
">\n\nIt's worth trying to avoid those situations, but ultimately it's a very false equivalence to hold people responsible for the actions of others, vs. their own personal actions.\nWhen you buy chocolate, you're not actually holding a gun to a slave, someone else is. The right answer to that is to lobby for worker protections for imported goods, and to try to end involuntary servitude within your country as well. \nWhen you have sex with a trafficked person, you personally literally raped them. If you don't have good evidence to know they aren't trafficked, you're personally ok with the possibility you're going to personally rape them. \nBoth might be considered bad. But it's a false equivalence.\nAnd sure... if someone is paying someone for sex when they are personal friends with them, and interact with them outside of prostitution enough to personally know that they aren't being trafficked... and you're sure they aren't lying, scorning them more than at most some light ribbing isn't justified. It's not like \"sugar daddies\" aren't a thing as well. At the very least much less disapprobation would be appropriate.",
">\n\nIn both cases, there is a customer receiving a service provided by a potentially enslaved person. They are morally equivalent. It makes no sense to say “sure I bought the slavery chocolate, but you can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”",
">\n\n\nyou can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”\n\nThe slavers actions are distinct from the consumers' actions for most things. \nThis is an actual important difference when it comes to prostitution. \nIgnoring that fundamental difference doesn't make it go away, and it's entirely reasonable for someone to make that distinction.",
">\n\nThe slaver and consumer are different people who take different actions in the prostitution scenario. The consumer in both scenarios is taking the risk of being immoral. If I force you to be my slave that’s still immoral whether or not I put you to work in my brothel or mine or factory or fishing boat. And if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever, it’s equivalent.",
">\n\n\nAnd if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever , it’s equivalent.\n\nThis is where the false equivalence comes in. \nSomeone making products with slave labor is not renting out a slave to the consumer so that they consumer can force them to perform mining for the consumer. They are enslaving the labor to create a product, and selling the product. Products don't have rights to violate. The only person violating the rights of the slave is the slaver.\nSomeone trafficking a victim is renting out that victim so that the consumer can rape them.",
">\n\nIf the sex is only contractual to you? Why not just \"hook up.\" Why pay? You will never be able to guarantee they are not being trafficked. If they are, they are not going to tell you. I think the idea of money exchanging hands for sex is the why most have a problem. The idea that you are giving a woman money for sex has been historically seen as her being a whore. \nI am not saying she is. I am saying that from the time it first exchanged hands, that is what it was. Men who could not find a woman, paid a woman. Why do you want others to see it differently? Yes, there will be outliers that will enjoy the work. But those are going to be ones that, like the escort, chose it, and charge what they want. Not the typical street hookers on the corner with pimps to pay. \nProve they are not trafficked, they work for themselves, they are clean (of both drugs and diseases - because they are taking care of themselves and being safe), and that they are a sex worker because they enjoy the work or that that chose the work. Then, hey! Pay 'em and get to it!",
">\n\nI think it is morally unhealthy to normalize it. Even though you have to be an adult to smoke weed, we definitely see weed as a normal thing to do in moderation compared to a few decades ago. This is how we would see prostitution if it was normalized. And I think weed has a lot less complications than legalizing prostitution. A LOT!\nSex work online is a lot safer and requires a lot less mental issues to engage in and promote. But even then, I know some sex workers (online type), and they are scarred by the stuff they have seen when it comes to their job. They have told me stories that are extremely disturbing. These are women who just do stuff by themselves. Not working with a porn company and other people.\nAlso, sex has a huge reputation for being violent and demoralizing towards women in general. I'd assume those numbers would be much higher in men looking to pay for sex. You'd have to have extremely strict and tight regulations for this sort of thing, which would take the fun out of it for a lot of people. And even then, there would still be many mistakes that would happen before we find out all the regulations that are needed. And I don't think we could ever make it mentally and physically safe for women.\nNow, do I think it should be decriminalized for prostitutes? Definitely. I don't see them as disgusting. I feel quite bad for them. Most of them were trafficked at a young age. Do I see men wanting to pay for sex as disgusting? Not necessarily. It depends on the person and the situation. However, this isn't a simple issue where if we just \"stop judging people,\" everything will be fine.",
">\n\nDecriminalizing prostitution for both those selling and buying is demonstrably safer for prostitutes. If it is criminal for the buyer but not the seller, the buyer is often highly defensive and paranoid about the seller, specifically the possibility that they may be working with law enforcement. The buyer will often push to do it in a highly isolated setting as well. These things increase violence that sex workers face, and the averages go down in places where it is decriminalized to both buy and sell. If you have a designated work place for it and no one needs to be distrustful and worried about being arrested, that is the safest situation for all involved. \nWe may disagree with buying it for whatever moral reason, but if we choose to criminalize the purchase of it, we are prioritizing punishing behavior we morally disagree with over prioritizing the safety of those involved, which I can't get behind.",
">\n\nBut there are so many more facets to the safety of legalizing it for the buyer other than them being pushy or wanting to do it in a hidden area. If we legalized it, it still wouldn't really help any of the points I made or is even something that is so overwhelmingly an issue compared to the points I made.",
">\n\nSo long as we have to work to live, all jobs are coercive, even sex work. I’m skeptical that there can ever be a consensual exchange within our current economic context.",
">\n\nExactly , I get sex is intimate but if you are willing to view sex work as any other job , you should be willing to treat it as such",
">\n\nSex work has certain occupational hazards that cannot be regulated away. OSHA (in the US) dictates that a person cannot be subject to bodily fluids without proper PPE in the workplace, and often johns just need to pay more to not wear a condom. Imagine a construction site paying workers more to not wear a hard hat. The greater potential for bodily harm is intrinsic to the work, and it will always be unsafe.",
">\n\nTrue but this doesn't really answer my question",
">\n\nMy point is that treating it like any other job is not ethically possible due to hazardous conditions",
">\n\nThis is a bad take.\nI’d wager prostitution doesn’t even rank in the top ten dangerous jobs by capita.",
">\n\nThat really depends. A gas station cashier likely has a higher risk of being killed. But a quick Google shows sex workers are thirty times more likely to get Aids than the general population. They're also at ridiculously high rates of risk to their mental health. Ptsd is common. Also, yes, sitting at a counter in a gas station is technically dangerous. But it is different type of danger compared to someone fucking them in the ass while shoving a sock in their mouth and calling them a dirty whore. When this happens to a prostitute, since she isn't dead, then all good right?! :) Her job isn't dangerous, she's still alive! And they're really not paid much. Average pay for a sex scene in porn for a woman is around $600, for the guy it's like a hundred. For prostitution you're looking at a hundred to two hundred dollars. \nAlso, if you're in the us. Good luck affording health insurance as an independent contractor engaged in sex work.",
">\n\nI’m not exactly impressed with the American system so if you’re criticising Americans health system then fuck yeah more power to you.\nYou raise fantastic points about there being non lethal dangers in sex work that are worth considering and harder to measure.\nThat being said, sit for a while and think about whether you think that sex workers are in a job so dangerous that it deserves its own category and shouldn’t even be allowed. (This is what the commenter I was responding to was claiming)\nI’m comfortable I’d ban lumberjack as a profession long before I considered banning prostitution based on relative level of danger and conditions.\nI don’t have a specific statistic but soldiers at an educated guess would probably be more likely to experience danger and mental issues but the commenter I responded to probably never thought for one second about banning soldiers on that basis.\nIt’s clear bias, being rationalised as something it isn’t.",
">\n\nIt's decriminalised where I live, which means women can arrange anything themselves. So you can have a strip club with a \"hotel\" above it. Basically 100% of the workers are foreign, from places like Ukraine. Russia, Moldova, Romania. Etc. It's a strange aspect which isn't often brought up. But\"legalizing \" almost always results on foreign workers undercutting any local workforce. How can a 26 year old American girl from the burbs compete with an 18 year Thai girl? One is fine doing work at basically the rates of a full time McDonald's employee, while the other isn't. And of course, that breeds the type of people you'd imagine running the business. Even in places like Amsterdam, where there's tons of regulation, you get the same trafficking you see anywhere else.\nSo morally. I've got zero problem. But I've just never seen a model that can actually ensure safety for everyone involved.",
">\n\nWell culture is everything isn't it? Of there wasn't so much sex tourism from places that have prostitution illegal there would probably be less demand wouldn't there? Less demand would make the whole industry safer imo due to the loss of money driving the search for foreign market girls\nLike imagine the whole world has a brothel just down the block. Does that make it more safe just by sheer volume and normality?",
">\n\nFirstly, i'm not religious, i'm sex-positive and the sex lives of strangers rarely concerns me. I don't think paying for these services makes you a \"bad\" person, nor a \"disgusting\" one.. but for me, it would affect your desirability to me as a partner. To me attraction is a big thing, and i'll be honest, I see it as kind of lame. Not morally corrupt but just ...desperate. \nI would want my partner to be someone that women wanted to have sex with, not the man that they had sex with as a purely profitable transaction. Whilst it's consensual, when you involve money or a benefit other than sex, the line slightly blurs, and I find it becomes icky. \nIt's not even that I think my partner should only have had strictly intimate and personable relations... but the question does spring to mind of \"is sex that has been paid for truly consensual? can you guarantee that?\" Even popular Pornstars who previously agreed to do porn and made careers out of it have stories where they later felt disgusted by what they've had to do but were so enamored by the money, they went through with it. Sex workers will ALWAYS sell a positive image to their clients, part of their job is to make you feel desired, but you never truly know the reality. \nAll in all, it can be seen as \"bad\" or \"disgusting\" because monetary rewards affects the lines of purely consensual sex. The same way it can be icky for a boss to have sex with the intern, the same way directors have sex with actresses that want to star in their movies, and the same way rockstars have sex with their fans. Doesn't make 'em rapists, but it's why people won't look at it as respectable.",
">\n\nyou aren’t sex positive if you think paying for sex is desperate.\ndoes paying for alcohol mean you’re desperate for happiness? some people want to have fun so they buy drinks, others find more fun in sex. as long as sex work is consensual and not the result of pimping or some other form of coercion then I don’t see any harm or how it would be desperate.\nthere are tangible benefits to buying sex vs finding it “naturally” that i don’t think you’re considering. \nwith sex workers you’re safer and don’t have to worry about pregnancy, theft, psychotic women, and other risks that come from random hookups with strangers or even casual dating. there’s also the whole “i don’t need to put time and effort into finding and flirting with someone” when it can be on demand. yea making food at home is usually cheaper and better tasting than takeout but sometimes you’re lazy and want a pizza delivered.",
">\n\nI’m generally sex positive to consensual sex between people. However, everything falls on a spectrum and I don’t think you have to have a certain view on every avenue to be as such. Much like you can love your job, your country or your friends but that doesn’t mean you can’t provide any forms of criticism nor must you love EVERY aspect of these things. \nI have no disdain for people who hook up on dating apps, clubs, attend sex parties etc. I will always believe sex workers should have right to practice and do so in a safe environment. I also wouldn’t stop their client base either, it’s not my business, but there are ethical implications and I’ve said my view from the perspective of my partner which naturally i hold to a more personable standard. I wouldn’t want to be with someone who puts their sexual desires above the possible implications involved in sex work. \nI do want to touch on your point that as long as it’s not coerced or forced, it’s okay. The ethical implication behind this is that when you involve money, this is not guaranteed. Not all clients will take the time to research the background and extra people involved behind the scenes. The women with pimps and who are trafficked won’t spill those beans to you. Again, there will always be exceptions to the rule. \nI understand that sex work is convenient to many but my perception is not swayed by the mere idea that paying for sex means you get to avoid having to flirt with women. Much like I can understand why people have no choice to purchase fast fashion and I’ll understand the reasoning but that does not mean I should ignore the child labour and poor conditions that make this possible. \nAll in all, I won’t stop you but I’m going to think it’s kinda lame. You can wear an item of clothing, I’ll defend you to wear that clothing and I won’t make you feel bad for wearing it.. but I may not like it myself.",
">\n\nReading your posts made me think of a bird preening it's feathers to attract a mate. I thought it was just you being obtuse untill you brought fashion into this lol\nYou really are just a pair of eyes arnt you. No complexity attached. \"I saw it in the window so I bought it! I didn't even care that it was 500$ I just wanted it because the other girls were eyeing it down and I just HAD to have it💅\"",
">\n\nI genuinely have no idea what you’re trying to convey. The topic of fashion was merely to represent that there are often complexities and nuance. So yes, I can be sex positive but I don’t necessarily have to agree with all the variances within the to topic of sex. \nI assume I’ve hit a nerve for your style of response.",
">\n\nNot sure about everywhere else but in America being as prostitution is illegal a lot of the situations the workers are in are really sad, depressing and predatory. If you take a look at the book “Pimp” by ice berg slim for example a lot of the industry isn’t the ideal some just wants to make money like any other job and the pimp is just a bodyguard/manger,\nA lot of it involves a tone of manipulation and dependency and when you add on the ones where safe sex isn’t a priority and the literal hundreds of partners you engage with in such a short time it all comes off as kinda gross.",
">\n\nSex, when a service, is not the same as any other service. There is a difference between driving a person somewhere in a taxi and having your face fucked and ejaculated on by a stranger. As many have stated before and as you can see in 99% of porn is that sex as a service is usually degrading towards women. Just look at the front page of any given porn site. Most of it is not, in any way, esteeming of the women participating. Look at goddamn blowjob videos. The women are not giving a blowjob - they are getting their face fucked. Extra points if they have to gag and be obviously physically uncomfortable and struggling to breathe. Dude it is just not the same as someone operating a forklift or making flower arrangements. Most of it is degrading and the more degrading the more klicks - the more people who frequent porn sites like it. And it's the same with prostitution. Read about what these women have experienced. It is plain awful. Sure if you are talking about a utopia where you can be 100% sure the prostitutes are there on their own terms and if every single customer is a loving, caring, gentle person taking care of the sex workers needs as much as their own - then yes, there would not be anything wrong with it. But that is just not how it is.\nHow hard is it, even in a healthy loving relationship, to always have both partners perfectly satisfied and met their needs sexually?\nSex is as intimate as human interaction can get and buying that from someone is taking all incentive away to treat the other person as good as you would treat a partner who you love and/or actively want to enjoy the time with you.\nAnd that is what disgusts people about people who frequent prostitutes. The possibility of being a person who, as long as they pay for something or feel like they've done their dues, doesn't give a shit about what the person on the other end is experiencing.\nedit: Because of other comments from OP I accused them of debating rather than discussing and suggested if they were seeking moral validation for what they do, which in itself was not part of a discussion really. I deleted that part because it serves no neutral purpose.",
">\n\nWell in this context not special but very very different, in the way that it is way more intimate, there's actually a part of ones body entering the others. There is exchange of bodily fluids. Those services are different from each other the same way as a massage is different to shoving items across a scanner, just times ten. One is naked, one experiences pleasure (or great pain) and one is not using their body to do something, they are having their body be used by someone else. That can leave physical bruises and mental scars because one is extremely vulnerable in the act.",
">\n\nMy view on it is that the act in itself is not wrong for anybody involved, but the character implication is what causes it to be met with disgust by some.\nIf you have money and you pay for sex from somebody who is willing, then it's no problem, but the issue comes when you delve into why they might be paying for sex.\nMany people experience sex in a consensual environment with a person who desires sex with them, and no money is involved. Many would view this as a very normal and important part of life.\nThe question that comes up subconsciously and/or consciously is \"why does this person need to pay for sex?\"\nIt could be that they have undeveloped social skills and this coild be deemed as a negative trait that needs to be worked on.\nAnother reason could be an atypically high sex drive, which could also be perceived as sex addiction.\nThese are not unlikely reasons for a person to pay a sex worker for sex and a judgement could be made before understanding more that they possess These sorts of traits that people simply have the desire to avoid.",
">\n\nThis is the correct answer. \nThe reason people look down on people who hire hookers has nothing to do with sex trafficking, or what really qualifies as consent, or any of the other comments in this thread. I think a good example is your iPhone. It is basically made with slave labor, but nobody really gives a shit. They just happily use their phone. If they actually did give a shit, they wouldn't buy iPhones. Also, prostitution has been around basically since the beginning of time. It has always been a part of human relationships and always will be.\nFor better or worse, the reason people look down on people who hire hookers is that it implies you are deficient in some way. If you were better looking or had better social skills or had more control over your base urges you would not need to hire a hooker. \nPersonally, I look at it like a wheelchair. I dont need a wheelchair and I really hope I never need one, but it is not fair (and downright cruel) for me to look down on someone who does use one. Are they deficient in some way? Yes. They can't walk. Do they deserve admonishment or judgement? No. Not at all.",
">\n\nYou're not paying too have sex with a prostitute. You're paying to use her body as a masturbatory aid.\nProstitution reduces women to being commodities, objects, things. Every other job, you're providing a skill to produce or exchange goods and services. Prostitution, the woman is the thing you're purchasing. The women are the commodities, they're not viewed as humen, they're viewed as consumable goods.",
">\n\nJust like almost every other Job, and any other form of sex work like strippers, onlyfans model , some e girl, girls who post theist traps on social media, so what makes those empowering and not this",
">\n\nStrippers, only fans, e-girls are not empowering. It's gross. When it comes down to it, they're sluts. And they're no better than their fuck-boy counterparts.",
">\n\nOK fair so the difference in worldview is what makes argumen unsound to you !delta",
">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/19jals80 (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nYou just can never know for sure whether the sex worker is being trafficked or not. You can't assume they'd tell you the truth if you asked. They might endanger themselves by telling you the truth. The sex worker wants money, and is willing to have some sexual contact with you in order to get the money. But fundamentally, they're permitting you to do something to their body that they do not want in and of itself. Therefore, their consent is dubious and conditional upon your payment. To me, that's not sufficient consent. I want someone I'm having sex with to genuinely, enthusiastically want to have sex with me for the sole purpose of enjoying sex with me. I don't want to use people as means to ends, and I don't want to be used as a means to anyone else's ends.\nI don't morally disapprove of sex work. I just wouldn't support it because it doesn't provide a good or service that interests me. I want actual human connection, which is something money cannot buy. I do morally disapprove of a system that drives people into sex work to get by or get ahead.",
">\n\n\nYou just can never know for sure whether the sex worker is being trafficked or not. \n\nThis argument can be made for any form of low-skilled labor.\nThere is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that sex work uses slavery more often than say construction work or weaving baskets.\nYour argument applies just as easily to buying a shoe, because it could have been constructed by slaves.",
">\n\nYour whataboutism does nothing to resolve the moral question.",
">\n\n“whataboutism” is the new trendy defence for people who've been shown a reductiō ad absurdum it seems.\nI'm showing that your argument can just as easily be used to argue the absurd, and that therefore it can't hold much water. Unless one were to believe in the absurd, and would believe that there is a problem with buying shoes or about any product.",
">\n\nAgain, none of what you've said addresses the moral dilemma in question. Moral questions can't be hand-waved away with empty rhetorical devices. This is still a question of how our choices impact the lives and well-being of others. The fact that we live in a world run by greed does not alleviate the moral burden of making this decision responsibly.",
">\n\nI don't think there is a solid \" yes \" or \" no \" answer to this question. There are so many ( but if's) that it's hard to give more than just an opinion.\n\n\nSpeaking from a Christian perspective, morally, yeah, it's wrong. Because sex is seen as something that's sacred that should be shared between 2 consenting married adults. \n\n\nBut if a woman isn't being forced in any type of way, shape, or form and she simply enjoys cash & realized opening her legs to buyers can get her lots of cash, that's her business. Not anyone else's.",
">\n\nTrying to justify yourself?",
">\n\nWhat is unjustifiable here?",
">\n\nI recently visited one. Frankly I just sought for intimacy. I asked them to kiss me and just take it slow. Because that’s what I miss in my life: intimacy.\nI noticed a lot of people have an opinion on it. I can never tell my parents nor my friends. You can only blame me to be socially maladjusted. I have tried all things I could in dating beforehand and frankly it didn’t work.\nSo… I think it’s something in my character to seek for a prostitute. I don’t think it should be condemned because everyone seeks what I am seeking. Only difference is some people can find it over Tinder or in their social circles, and I have to pay for it. Sorry, I wish it was different but it isn’t.",
">\n\nInteresting post. Thanks.\nWhat would you see that would make you change your mind?\n\nsex is considered intimate and special to some people \n\nWhat if sex is objectively intimate and special, as opposed to “some people” finding it subjectively intimate and special? Would that change your mind?",
">\n\nI think in context of religion and this kind of view yes but if you lack this, you are Into causal sex ,and support sex work I don't get it",
">\n\nThanks for the response.\nLet’s back up…I think we are missing each other. The sub is called r/changemyview, so I first want to understand your view and then have you tell me what would change it. Alternatively, if nothing would change it, I would like to know that, too.\nI think your argument is the following:\nP1: Moral oppobrium is an appropriate response only to moral failures.\nP2: There is no moral aspect to a consensual sex act.\nC1: Therefore, moral oppobrium is not appropriate for (uncoerced) sex workers and their patrons.\nDo I have that right? If not, please correct me.",
">\n\nYou do",
">\n\nWhat about how awfully the punters treat the women who work in prostitution, as this article (and many others) reveals? Would you not look down on these men because of this?",
">\n\nI would but not all men who hire sex workers do this , also this is not a specifically sex worker problem , it can happen even in the confines of a relationship , do you also look down on men who enter relationships with women or just the men who are abusive because it also applies in the cases of sex work porn is part of sex work\nSome of the other issues come with the job which like it or not the one who aren't trafficked consent to it , like the idea that they don't get hired for other jobs , then things like racism , sexual harassment violence , addiction being a single mom has nothing to do with sex work",
">\n\nIt's seen as a character flaw because people are expected to suppress their need for sex to some extent until they find an actual romantic partner. The fact that they can't do that shows they don't care about the expectation to do so and/or are too focused on getting sex to care.",
">\n\npaying for sex is paying for consent",
">\n\nJust like anybody else who works 8 hours for low pay. I didn't know sex was such a horrible thing, or is it just taboo?",
">\n\nAs a sex worker, thank you for this post. A lot of people don't realize that some humans- are incapable of getting laid on their own. Whether it be physical disabilities or emotional /social issues.... Sometimes paying for sex will be the only time certain people ever get touched intimately, and to take that away from...that's really f* up. \nAnd furthermore; I think it's funny that religious people are totally fine with renting a womb to have a baby- but not my body- which is MINE- for my own reasons (money/pleasure)...",
">\n\nI am religious, and am definitely NOT okay with renting wombs. In fact, I see it as far more reprehensible than sex work.",
">\n\n😂 I think you are living a lie/joke so...I think sex work and surrogacy are totally cool",
">\n\nI don't think people see paying for sex as disgusting so long one be pretty and attractive, to be honest.\nPeople just assume that the people that do so are unattractive, and that's probably something that's often true because why pay a fortune for something that many get obtain for free?"
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Because it's quicker and faster, allows you to fuck 10 great looking chicks at once, puts you in absolute control of what is happening (as they're being hired to pleasure you), and to me it also has a morally iffy and sadistic element which makes it even more enjoyable.
This would also be why visitors of high class prostitutes are not stereotyped to be so unattractive, but simply wealthy, as those prostitutes tend to fit the stereotypes you describe.
But most prostitutes are in fact known to provide exceptionally poor sex, which makes paying for it seem even more desperate. They are not as well trained as the high class ones that cost even more.
But I agree with the first part of your comment though. Besides one single radfem, I've never had a problem with girls judging me for my escort habits, and I'm very open about them.
Then I would assume you are quite good looking, and that you call them “escorts” and your experiences with them also implies you are of considerable monetary means.
However, I will say that if you simply say online “I visit prostitutes regularly.”, that most will assume you are not.
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[
"/u/Due-Lie-8710 (OP) has awarded 7 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nThere's a song I like that speaks on this fairly poetically, so I'd like to start by just directly quoting it:\n\nSo when you bled on the bed as you fed those expectations, as a whore and not a human, you embraced with hesitation the very parameters of all you can be. Not a mother, not an aunt, not a sister who's not subdued. Because dignity's not physical, and your flesh means more than you.\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.",
">\n\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.\n\nFirst of all if you aren't trafficked it is just like another job, as for you both being seen as human , make sense hey aren't there to befriend to have sex , you are performing a service, it's like you watching football or a movie, you only see them as footballers ot actors , half of the time they don't care about their personal life, there are some jobs that prevent you from getting any high paying jobs or jobs that involve care , as for the people purchasing it , if you can't purchase it then why should they sell it , you don't actually support sex work, because that would mean accepting the consumer base ad well as the supplier",
">\n\nThat’s a really big if though, sex work isn’t exactly an industry where you will know for sure if the service you’re getting is consensual. individuals who are victims of sexual trafficking, coercion, or just life circumstance aren’t likely to just tell their “customers” if it isn’t consensual. they could endanger themselves or not be aware that they can say something. \nSeeing someone as an object vs seeing them as an individual with a job aren’t the same though? yes we recognize actors and football players by their career choice and how well they are at it, but they’re still people at the end of the day? that’s why they have fanbases, interviews, paparazzi, popularity on social media, movie adaptions of their life exist—people are interested in more than them just doing their job.\nA persons job is no reason to suddenly strip them of their humanity and rights granted them for being such, that kind of mentality is morally skewed and why a lot of people would not support sex work. plus you can’t say it makes sense for sex workers to be see as commodities only and then believe sex work will be consensual. the whole consent part comes from recognizing that this is another person who has their own boundaries and limits beyond just what you want.",
">\n\nokay, that’s a plumber and not a person you’re having sex with. unlike plumbing which is clean cut, sex can include multiple aspects of different kinks and fetishes. You can’t expect a sex worker to be okay with say participating in rape play, anal, scat, and a mirage of other kinks simply because they agreed to sex. Sex is not clean cut, there is more to it. There has to be a boundary somewhere, this is another person body not a pipe.",
">\n\nThat’s like the point? recognizing the boundary and proceeding from there by RESPECTING the boundary because they are another person and not some masturbatory object. What you just said was a consensual interaction. The initial point was that there is no consensual sex without respecting the party that’s giving as a person.",
">\n\nSo... there's a concept of a moral hazard. \nThere's literally no way for an individual to be certain that their prostitute is not being coerced/trafficked. Even if there are some special circumstances where it might be unlikely, certainty is still impossible, and most people frequenting prostitutes are not in those special circumstances.\nSomeone using their services is therefore extremely likely to be comfortable with risking that they are unknowingly raping someone. \nGenerally speaking, people find that disgusting.",
">\n\nIf you eat chocolate (even the stuff with the fair trade sticker) then there's no guarantee that it hasn't come from slave farms which are not uncommon. If you eat chocolate throughout your life then you are almost definitely contributing to slavery. If you visit a prostitute regularly then the chance they're being exploited is anywhere from functioninally 0% to 100%. So why treat the John who might be discerning with scorn and not the chocolate eater who is a much safer bet in having contributed to coerced labour.",
">\n\nIt's worth trying to avoid those situations, but ultimately it's a very false equivalence to hold people responsible for the actions of others, vs. their own personal actions.\nWhen you buy chocolate, you're not actually holding a gun to a slave, someone else is. The right answer to that is to lobby for worker protections for imported goods, and to try to end involuntary servitude within your country as well. \nWhen you have sex with a trafficked person, you personally literally raped them. If you don't have good evidence to know they aren't trafficked, you're personally ok with the possibility you're going to personally rape them. \nBoth might be considered bad. But it's a false equivalence.\nAnd sure... if someone is paying someone for sex when they are personal friends with them, and interact with them outside of prostitution enough to personally know that they aren't being trafficked... and you're sure they aren't lying, scorning them more than at most some light ribbing isn't justified. It's not like \"sugar daddies\" aren't a thing as well. At the very least much less disapprobation would be appropriate.",
">\n\nIn both cases, there is a customer receiving a service provided by a potentially enslaved person. They are morally equivalent. It makes no sense to say “sure I bought the slavery chocolate, but you can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”",
">\n\n\nyou can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”\n\nThe slavers actions are distinct from the consumers' actions for most things. \nThis is an actual important difference when it comes to prostitution. \nIgnoring that fundamental difference doesn't make it go away, and it's entirely reasonable for someone to make that distinction.",
">\n\nThe slaver and consumer are different people who take different actions in the prostitution scenario. The consumer in both scenarios is taking the risk of being immoral. If I force you to be my slave that’s still immoral whether or not I put you to work in my brothel or mine or factory or fishing boat. And if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever, it’s equivalent.",
">\n\n\nAnd if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever , it’s equivalent.\n\nThis is where the false equivalence comes in. \nSomeone making products with slave labor is not renting out a slave to the consumer so that they consumer can force them to perform mining for the consumer. They are enslaving the labor to create a product, and selling the product. Products don't have rights to violate. The only person violating the rights of the slave is the slaver.\nSomeone trafficking a victim is renting out that victim so that the consumer can rape them.",
">\n\nIf the sex is only contractual to you? Why not just \"hook up.\" Why pay? You will never be able to guarantee they are not being trafficked. If they are, they are not going to tell you. I think the idea of money exchanging hands for sex is the why most have a problem. The idea that you are giving a woman money for sex has been historically seen as her being a whore. \nI am not saying she is. I am saying that from the time it first exchanged hands, that is what it was. Men who could not find a woman, paid a woman. Why do you want others to see it differently? Yes, there will be outliers that will enjoy the work. But those are going to be ones that, like the escort, chose it, and charge what they want. Not the typical street hookers on the corner with pimps to pay. \nProve they are not trafficked, they work for themselves, they are clean (of both drugs and diseases - because they are taking care of themselves and being safe), and that they are a sex worker because they enjoy the work or that that chose the work. Then, hey! Pay 'em and get to it!",
">\n\nI think it is morally unhealthy to normalize it. Even though you have to be an adult to smoke weed, we definitely see weed as a normal thing to do in moderation compared to a few decades ago. This is how we would see prostitution if it was normalized. And I think weed has a lot less complications than legalizing prostitution. A LOT!\nSex work online is a lot safer and requires a lot less mental issues to engage in and promote. But even then, I know some sex workers (online type), and they are scarred by the stuff they have seen when it comes to their job. They have told me stories that are extremely disturbing. These are women who just do stuff by themselves. Not working with a porn company and other people.\nAlso, sex has a huge reputation for being violent and demoralizing towards women in general. I'd assume those numbers would be much higher in men looking to pay for sex. You'd have to have extremely strict and tight regulations for this sort of thing, which would take the fun out of it for a lot of people. And even then, there would still be many mistakes that would happen before we find out all the regulations that are needed. And I don't think we could ever make it mentally and physically safe for women.\nNow, do I think it should be decriminalized for prostitutes? Definitely. I don't see them as disgusting. I feel quite bad for them. Most of them were trafficked at a young age. Do I see men wanting to pay for sex as disgusting? Not necessarily. It depends on the person and the situation. However, this isn't a simple issue where if we just \"stop judging people,\" everything will be fine.",
">\n\nDecriminalizing prostitution for both those selling and buying is demonstrably safer for prostitutes. If it is criminal for the buyer but not the seller, the buyer is often highly defensive and paranoid about the seller, specifically the possibility that they may be working with law enforcement. The buyer will often push to do it in a highly isolated setting as well. These things increase violence that sex workers face, and the averages go down in places where it is decriminalized to both buy and sell. If you have a designated work place for it and no one needs to be distrustful and worried about being arrested, that is the safest situation for all involved. \nWe may disagree with buying it for whatever moral reason, but if we choose to criminalize the purchase of it, we are prioritizing punishing behavior we morally disagree with over prioritizing the safety of those involved, which I can't get behind.",
">\n\nBut there are so many more facets to the safety of legalizing it for the buyer other than them being pushy or wanting to do it in a hidden area. If we legalized it, it still wouldn't really help any of the points I made or is even something that is so overwhelmingly an issue compared to the points I made.",
">\n\nSo long as we have to work to live, all jobs are coercive, even sex work. I’m skeptical that there can ever be a consensual exchange within our current economic context.",
">\n\nExactly , I get sex is intimate but if you are willing to view sex work as any other job , you should be willing to treat it as such",
">\n\nSex work has certain occupational hazards that cannot be regulated away. OSHA (in the US) dictates that a person cannot be subject to bodily fluids without proper PPE in the workplace, and often johns just need to pay more to not wear a condom. Imagine a construction site paying workers more to not wear a hard hat. The greater potential for bodily harm is intrinsic to the work, and it will always be unsafe.",
">\n\nTrue but this doesn't really answer my question",
">\n\nMy point is that treating it like any other job is not ethically possible due to hazardous conditions",
">\n\nThis is a bad take.\nI’d wager prostitution doesn’t even rank in the top ten dangerous jobs by capita.",
">\n\nThat really depends. A gas station cashier likely has a higher risk of being killed. But a quick Google shows sex workers are thirty times more likely to get Aids than the general population. They're also at ridiculously high rates of risk to their mental health. Ptsd is common. Also, yes, sitting at a counter in a gas station is technically dangerous. But it is different type of danger compared to someone fucking them in the ass while shoving a sock in their mouth and calling them a dirty whore. When this happens to a prostitute, since she isn't dead, then all good right?! :) Her job isn't dangerous, she's still alive! And they're really not paid much. Average pay for a sex scene in porn for a woman is around $600, for the guy it's like a hundred. For prostitution you're looking at a hundred to two hundred dollars. \nAlso, if you're in the us. Good luck affording health insurance as an independent contractor engaged in sex work.",
">\n\nI’m not exactly impressed with the American system so if you’re criticising Americans health system then fuck yeah more power to you.\nYou raise fantastic points about there being non lethal dangers in sex work that are worth considering and harder to measure.\nThat being said, sit for a while and think about whether you think that sex workers are in a job so dangerous that it deserves its own category and shouldn’t even be allowed. (This is what the commenter I was responding to was claiming)\nI’m comfortable I’d ban lumberjack as a profession long before I considered banning prostitution based on relative level of danger and conditions.\nI don’t have a specific statistic but soldiers at an educated guess would probably be more likely to experience danger and mental issues but the commenter I responded to probably never thought for one second about banning soldiers on that basis.\nIt’s clear bias, being rationalised as something it isn’t.",
">\n\nIt's decriminalised where I live, which means women can arrange anything themselves. So you can have a strip club with a \"hotel\" above it. Basically 100% of the workers are foreign, from places like Ukraine. Russia, Moldova, Romania. Etc. It's a strange aspect which isn't often brought up. But\"legalizing \" almost always results on foreign workers undercutting any local workforce. How can a 26 year old American girl from the burbs compete with an 18 year Thai girl? One is fine doing work at basically the rates of a full time McDonald's employee, while the other isn't. And of course, that breeds the type of people you'd imagine running the business. Even in places like Amsterdam, where there's tons of regulation, you get the same trafficking you see anywhere else.\nSo morally. I've got zero problem. But I've just never seen a model that can actually ensure safety for everyone involved.",
">\n\nWell culture is everything isn't it? Of there wasn't so much sex tourism from places that have prostitution illegal there would probably be less demand wouldn't there? Less demand would make the whole industry safer imo due to the loss of money driving the search for foreign market girls\nLike imagine the whole world has a brothel just down the block. Does that make it more safe just by sheer volume and normality?",
">\n\nFirstly, i'm not religious, i'm sex-positive and the sex lives of strangers rarely concerns me. I don't think paying for these services makes you a \"bad\" person, nor a \"disgusting\" one.. but for me, it would affect your desirability to me as a partner. To me attraction is a big thing, and i'll be honest, I see it as kind of lame. Not morally corrupt but just ...desperate. \nI would want my partner to be someone that women wanted to have sex with, not the man that they had sex with as a purely profitable transaction. Whilst it's consensual, when you involve money or a benefit other than sex, the line slightly blurs, and I find it becomes icky. \nIt's not even that I think my partner should only have had strictly intimate and personable relations... but the question does spring to mind of \"is sex that has been paid for truly consensual? can you guarantee that?\" Even popular Pornstars who previously agreed to do porn and made careers out of it have stories where they later felt disgusted by what they've had to do but were so enamored by the money, they went through with it. Sex workers will ALWAYS sell a positive image to their clients, part of their job is to make you feel desired, but you never truly know the reality. \nAll in all, it can be seen as \"bad\" or \"disgusting\" because monetary rewards affects the lines of purely consensual sex. The same way it can be icky for a boss to have sex with the intern, the same way directors have sex with actresses that want to star in their movies, and the same way rockstars have sex with their fans. Doesn't make 'em rapists, but it's why people won't look at it as respectable.",
">\n\nyou aren’t sex positive if you think paying for sex is desperate.\ndoes paying for alcohol mean you’re desperate for happiness? some people want to have fun so they buy drinks, others find more fun in sex. as long as sex work is consensual and not the result of pimping or some other form of coercion then I don’t see any harm or how it would be desperate.\nthere are tangible benefits to buying sex vs finding it “naturally” that i don’t think you’re considering. \nwith sex workers you’re safer and don’t have to worry about pregnancy, theft, psychotic women, and other risks that come from random hookups with strangers or even casual dating. there’s also the whole “i don’t need to put time and effort into finding and flirting with someone” when it can be on demand. yea making food at home is usually cheaper and better tasting than takeout but sometimes you’re lazy and want a pizza delivered.",
">\n\nI’m generally sex positive to consensual sex between people. However, everything falls on a spectrum and I don’t think you have to have a certain view on every avenue to be as such. Much like you can love your job, your country or your friends but that doesn’t mean you can’t provide any forms of criticism nor must you love EVERY aspect of these things. \nI have no disdain for people who hook up on dating apps, clubs, attend sex parties etc. I will always believe sex workers should have right to practice and do so in a safe environment. I also wouldn’t stop their client base either, it’s not my business, but there are ethical implications and I’ve said my view from the perspective of my partner which naturally i hold to a more personable standard. I wouldn’t want to be with someone who puts their sexual desires above the possible implications involved in sex work. \nI do want to touch on your point that as long as it’s not coerced or forced, it’s okay. The ethical implication behind this is that when you involve money, this is not guaranteed. Not all clients will take the time to research the background and extra people involved behind the scenes. The women with pimps and who are trafficked won’t spill those beans to you. Again, there will always be exceptions to the rule. \nI understand that sex work is convenient to many but my perception is not swayed by the mere idea that paying for sex means you get to avoid having to flirt with women. Much like I can understand why people have no choice to purchase fast fashion and I’ll understand the reasoning but that does not mean I should ignore the child labour and poor conditions that make this possible. \nAll in all, I won’t stop you but I’m going to think it’s kinda lame. You can wear an item of clothing, I’ll defend you to wear that clothing and I won’t make you feel bad for wearing it.. but I may not like it myself.",
">\n\nReading your posts made me think of a bird preening it's feathers to attract a mate. I thought it was just you being obtuse untill you brought fashion into this lol\nYou really are just a pair of eyes arnt you. No complexity attached. \"I saw it in the window so I bought it! I didn't even care that it was 500$ I just wanted it because the other girls were eyeing it down and I just HAD to have it💅\"",
">\n\nI genuinely have no idea what you’re trying to convey. The topic of fashion was merely to represent that there are often complexities and nuance. So yes, I can be sex positive but I don’t necessarily have to agree with all the variances within the to topic of sex. \nI assume I’ve hit a nerve for your style of response.",
">\n\nNot sure about everywhere else but in America being as prostitution is illegal a lot of the situations the workers are in are really sad, depressing and predatory. If you take a look at the book “Pimp” by ice berg slim for example a lot of the industry isn’t the ideal some just wants to make money like any other job and the pimp is just a bodyguard/manger,\nA lot of it involves a tone of manipulation and dependency and when you add on the ones where safe sex isn’t a priority and the literal hundreds of partners you engage with in such a short time it all comes off as kinda gross.",
">\n\nSex, when a service, is not the same as any other service. There is a difference between driving a person somewhere in a taxi and having your face fucked and ejaculated on by a stranger. As many have stated before and as you can see in 99% of porn is that sex as a service is usually degrading towards women. Just look at the front page of any given porn site. Most of it is not, in any way, esteeming of the women participating. Look at goddamn blowjob videos. The women are not giving a blowjob - they are getting their face fucked. Extra points if they have to gag and be obviously physically uncomfortable and struggling to breathe. Dude it is just not the same as someone operating a forklift or making flower arrangements. Most of it is degrading and the more degrading the more klicks - the more people who frequent porn sites like it. And it's the same with prostitution. Read about what these women have experienced. It is plain awful. Sure if you are talking about a utopia where you can be 100% sure the prostitutes are there on their own terms and if every single customer is a loving, caring, gentle person taking care of the sex workers needs as much as their own - then yes, there would not be anything wrong with it. But that is just not how it is.\nHow hard is it, even in a healthy loving relationship, to always have both partners perfectly satisfied and met their needs sexually?\nSex is as intimate as human interaction can get and buying that from someone is taking all incentive away to treat the other person as good as you would treat a partner who you love and/or actively want to enjoy the time with you.\nAnd that is what disgusts people about people who frequent prostitutes. The possibility of being a person who, as long as they pay for something or feel like they've done their dues, doesn't give a shit about what the person on the other end is experiencing.\nedit: Because of other comments from OP I accused them of debating rather than discussing and suggested if they were seeking moral validation for what they do, which in itself was not part of a discussion really. I deleted that part because it serves no neutral purpose.",
">\n\nWell in this context not special but very very different, in the way that it is way more intimate, there's actually a part of ones body entering the others. There is exchange of bodily fluids. Those services are different from each other the same way as a massage is different to shoving items across a scanner, just times ten. One is naked, one experiences pleasure (or great pain) and one is not using their body to do something, they are having their body be used by someone else. That can leave physical bruises and mental scars because one is extremely vulnerable in the act.",
">\n\nMy view on it is that the act in itself is not wrong for anybody involved, but the character implication is what causes it to be met with disgust by some.\nIf you have money and you pay for sex from somebody who is willing, then it's no problem, but the issue comes when you delve into why they might be paying for sex.\nMany people experience sex in a consensual environment with a person who desires sex with them, and no money is involved. Many would view this as a very normal and important part of life.\nThe question that comes up subconsciously and/or consciously is \"why does this person need to pay for sex?\"\nIt could be that they have undeveloped social skills and this coild be deemed as a negative trait that needs to be worked on.\nAnother reason could be an atypically high sex drive, which could also be perceived as sex addiction.\nThese are not unlikely reasons for a person to pay a sex worker for sex and a judgement could be made before understanding more that they possess These sorts of traits that people simply have the desire to avoid.",
">\n\nThis is the correct answer. \nThe reason people look down on people who hire hookers has nothing to do with sex trafficking, or what really qualifies as consent, or any of the other comments in this thread. I think a good example is your iPhone. It is basically made with slave labor, but nobody really gives a shit. They just happily use their phone. If they actually did give a shit, they wouldn't buy iPhones. Also, prostitution has been around basically since the beginning of time. It has always been a part of human relationships and always will be.\nFor better or worse, the reason people look down on people who hire hookers is that it implies you are deficient in some way. If you were better looking or had better social skills or had more control over your base urges you would not need to hire a hooker. \nPersonally, I look at it like a wheelchair. I dont need a wheelchair and I really hope I never need one, but it is not fair (and downright cruel) for me to look down on someone who does use one. Are they deficient in some way? Yes. They can't walk. Do they deserve admonishment or judgement? No. Not at all.",
">\n\nYou're not paying too have sex with a prostitute. You're paying to use her body as a masturbatory aid.\nProstitution reduces women to being commodities, objects, things. Every other job, you're providing a skill to produce or exchange goods and services. Prostitution, the woman is the thing you're purchasing. The women are the commodities, they're not viewed as humen, they're viewed as consumable goods.",
">\n\nJust like almost every other Job, and any other form of sex work like strippers, onlyfans model , some e girl, girls who post theist traps on social media, so what makes those empowering and not this",
">\n\nStrippers, only fans, e-girls are not empowering. It's gross. When it comes down to it, they're sluts. And they're no better than their fuck-boy counterparts.",
">\n\nOK fair so the difference in worldview is what makes argumen unsound to you !delta",
">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/19jals80 (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nYou just can never know for sure whether the sex worker is being trafficked or not. You can't assume they'd tell you the truth if you asked. They might endanger themselves by telling you the truth. The sex worker wants money, and is willing to have some sexual contact with you in order to get the money. But fundamentally, they're permitting you to do something to their body that they do not want in and of itself. Therefore, their consent is dubious and conditional upon your payment. To me, that's not sufficient consent. I want someone I'm having sex with to genuinely, enthusiastically want to have sex with me for the sole purpose of enjoying sex with me. I don't want to use people as means to ends, and I don't want to be used as a means to anyone else's ends.\nI don't morally disapprove of sex work. I just wouldn't support it because it doesn't provide a good or service that interests me. I want actual human connection, which is something money cannot buy. I do morally disapprove of a system that drives people into sex work to get by or get ahead.",
">\n\n\nYou just can never know for sure whether the sex worker is being trafficked or not. \n\nThis argument can be made for any form of low-skilled labor.\nThere is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that sex work uses slavery more often than say construction work or weaving baskets.\nYour argument applies just as easily to buying a shoe, because it could have been constructed by slaves.",
">\n\nYour whataboutism does nothing to resolve the moral question.",
">\n\n“whataboutism” is the new trendy defence for people who've been shown a reductiō ad absurdum it seems.\nI'm showing that your argument can just as easily be used to argue the absurd, and that therefore it can't hold much water. Unless one were to believe in the absurd, and would believe that there is a problem with buying shoes or about any product.",
">\n\nAgain, none of what you've said addresses the moral dilemma in question. Moral questions can't be hand-waved away with empty rhetorical devices. This is still a question of how our choices impact the lives and well-being of others. The fact that we live in a world run by greed does not alleviate the moral burden of making this decision responsibly.",
">\n\nI don't think there is a solid \" yes \" or \" no \" answer to this question. There are so many ( but if's) that it's hard to give more than just an opinion.\n\n\nSpeaking from a Christian perspective, morally, yeah, it's wrong. Because sex is seen as something that's sacred that should be shared between 2 consenting married adults. \n\n\nBut if a woman isn't being forced in any type of way, shape, or form and she simply enjoys cash & realized opening her legs to buyers can get her lots of cash, that's her business. Not anyone else's.",
">\n\nTrying to justify yourself?",
">\n\nWhat is unjustifiable here?",
">\n\nI recently visited one. Frankly I just sought for intimacy. I asked them to kiss me and just take it slow. Because that’s what I miss in my life: intimacy.\nI noticed a lot of people have an opinion on it. I can never tell my parents nor my friends. You can only blame me to be socially maladjusted. I have tried all things I could in dating beforehand and frankly it didn’t work.\nSo… I think it’s something in my character to seek for a prostitute. I don’t think it should be condemned because everyone seeks what I am seeking. Only difference is some people can find it over Tinder or in their social circles, and I have to pay for it. Sorry, I wish it was different but it isn’t.",
">\n\nInteresting post. Thanks.\nWhat would you see that would make you change your mind?\n\nsex is considered intimate and special to some people \n\nWhat if sex is objectively intimate and special, as opposed to “some people” finding it subjectively intimate and special? Would that change your mind?",
">\n\nI think in context of religion and this kind of view yes but if you lack this, you are Into causal sex ,and support sex work I don't get it",
">\n\nThanks for the response.\nLet’s back up…I think we are missing each other. The sub is called r/changemyview, so I first want to understand your view and then have you tell me what would change it. Alternatively, if nothing would change it, I would like to know that, too.\nI think your argument is the following:\nP1: Moral oppobrium is an appropriate response only to moral failures.\nP2: There is no moral aspect to a consensual sex act.\nC1: Therefore, moral oppobrium is not appropriate for (uncoerced) sex workers and their patrons.\nDo I have that right? If not, please correct me.",
">\n\nYou do",
">\n\nWhat about how awfully the punters treat the women who work in prostitution, as this article (and many others) reveals? Would you not look down on these men because of this?",
">\n\nI would but not all men who hire sex workers do this , also this is not a specifically sex worker problem , it can happen even in the confines of a relationship , do you also look down on men who enter relationships with women or just the men who are abusive because it also applies in the cases of sex work porn is part of sex work\nSome of the other issues come with the job which like it or not the one who aren't trafficked consent to it , like the idea that they don't get hired for other jobs , then things like racism , sexual harassment violence , addiction being a single mom has nothing to do with sex work",
">\n\nIt's seen as a character flaw because people are expected to suppress their need for sex to some extent until they find an actual romantic partner. The fact that they can't do that shows they don't care about the expectation to do so and/or are too focused on getting sex to care.",
">\n\npaying for sex is paying for consent",
">\n\nJust like anybody else who works 8 hours for low pay. I didn't know sex was such a horrible thing, or is it just taboo?",
">\n\nAs a sex worker, thank you for this post. A lot of people don't realize that some humans- are incapable of getting laid on their own. Whether it be physical disabilities or emotional /social issues.... Sometimes paying for sex will be the only time certain people ever get touched intimately, and to take that away from...that's really f* up. \nAnd furthermore; I think it's funny that religious people are totally fine with renting a womb to have a baby- but not my body- which is MINE- for my own reasons (money/pleasure)...",
">\n\nI am religious, and am definitely NOT okay with renting wombs. In fact, I see it as far more reprehensible than sex work.",
">\n\n😂 I think you are living a lie/joke so...I think sex work and surrogacy are totally cool",
">\n\nI don't think people see paying for sex as disgusting so long one be pretty and attractive, to be honest.\nPeople just assume that the people that do so are unattractive, and that's probably something that's often true because why pay a fortune for something that many get obtain for free?",
">\n\n\nwhy pay a fortune for something that many get obtain for free?\n\nBecause it's quicker and faster, allows you to fuck 10 great looking chicks at once, puts you in absolute control of what is happening (as they're being hired to pleasure you), and to me it also has a morally iffy and sadistic element which makes it even more enjoyable.\n...\nBut I agree with the first part of your comment though. Besides one single radfem, I've never had a problem with girls judging me for my escort habits, and I'm very open about them."
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On one hand, we shouldn't judge people. On the other hand, it's good to have strong moral beliefs. One of my beliefs is that sex outside of marriage is very immoral. Reducing it to a business transaction is even worse.
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"/u/Due-Lie-8710 (OP) has awarded 7 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nThere's a song I like that speaks on this fairly poetically, so I'd like to start by just directly quoting it:\n\nSo when you bled on the bed as you fed those expectations, as a whore and not a human, you embraced with hesitation the very parameters of all you can be. Not a mother, not an aunt, not a sister who's not subdued. Because dignity's not physical, and your flesh means more than you.\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.",
">\n\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.\n\nFirst of all if you aren't trafficked it is just like another job, as for you both being seen as human , make sense hey aren't there to befriend to have sex , you are performing a service, it's like you watching football or a movie, you only see them as footballers ot actors , half of the time they don't care about their personal life, there are some jobs that prevent you from getting any high paying jobs or jobs that involve care , as for the people purchasing it , if you can't purchase it then why should they sell it , you don't actually support sex work, because that would mean accepting the consumer base ad well as the supplier",
">\n\nThat’s a really big if though, sex work isn’t exactly an industry where you will know for sure if the service you’re getting is consensual. individuals who are victims of sexual trafficking, coercion, or just life circumstance aren’t likely to just tell their “customers” if it isn’t consensual. they could endanger themselves or not be aware that they can say something. \nSeeing someone as an object vs seeing them as an individual with a job aren’t the same though? yes we recognize actors and football players by their career choice and how well they are at it, but they’re still people at the end of the day? that’s why they have fanbases, interviews, paparazzi, popularity on social media, movie adaptions of their life exist—people are interested in more than them just doing their job.\nA persons job is no reason to suddenly strip them of their humanity and rights granted them for being such, that kind of mentality is morally skewed and why a lot of people would not support sex work. plus you can’t say it makes sense for sex workers to be see as commodities only and then believe sex work will be consensual. the whole consent part comes from recognizing that this is another person who has their own boundaries and limits beyond just what you want.",
">\n\nokay, that’s a plumber and not a person you’re having sex with. unlike plumbing which is clean cut, sex can include multiple aspects of different kinks and fetishes. You can’t expect a sex worker to be okay with say participating in rape play, anal, scat, and a mirage of other kinks simply because they agreed to sex. Sex is not clean cut, there is more to it. There has to be a boundary somewhere, this is another person body not a pipe.",
">\n\nThat’s like the point? recognizing the boundary and proceeding from there by RESPECTING the boundary because they are another person and not some masturbatory object. What you just said was a consensual interaction. The initial point was that there is no consensual sex without respecting the party that’s giving as a person.",
">\n\nSo... there's a concept of a moral hazard. \nThere's literally no way for an individual to be certain that their prostitute is not being coerced/trafficked. Even if there are some special circumstances where it might be unlikely, certainty is still impossible, and most people frequenting prostitutes are not in those special circumstances.\nSomeone using their services is therefore extremely likely to be comfortable with risking that they are unknowingly raping someone. \nGenerally speaking, people find that disgusting.",
">\n\nIf you eat chocolate (even the stuff with the fair trade sticker) then there's no guarantee that it hasn't come from slave farms which are not uncommon. If you eat chocolate throughout your life then you are almost definitely contributing to slavery. If you visit a prostitute regularly then the chance they're being exploited is anywhere from functioninally 0% to 100%. So why treat the John who might be discerning with scorn and not the chocolate eater who is a much safer bet in having contributed to coerced labour.",
">\n\nIt's worth trying to avoid those situations, but ultimately it's a very false equivalence to hold people responsible for the actions of others, vs. their own personal actions.\nWhen you buy chocolate, you're not actually holding a gun to a slave, someone else is. The right answer to that is to lobby for worker protections for imported goods, and to try to end involuntary servitude within your country as well. \nWhen you have sex with a trafficked person, you personally literally raped them. If you don't have good evidence to know they aren't trafficked, you're personally ok with the possibility you're going to personally rape them. \nBoth might be considered bad. But it's a false equivalence.\nAnd sure... if someone is paying someone for sex when they are personal friends with them, and interact with them outside of prostitution enough to personally know that they aren't being trafficked... and you're sure they aren't lying, scorning them more than at most some light ribbing isn't justified. It's not like \"sugar daddies\" aren't a thing as well. At the very least much less disapprobation would be appropriate.",
">\n\nIn both cases, there is a customer receiving a service provided by a potentially enslaved person. They are morally equivalent. It makes no sense to say “sure I bought the slavery chocolate, but you can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”",
">\n\n\nyou can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”\n\nThe slavers actions are distinct from the consumers' actions for most things. \nThis is an actual important difference when it comes to prostitution. \nIgnoring that fundamental difference doesn't make it go away, and it's entirely reasonable for someone to make that distinction.",
">\n\nThe slaver and consumer are different people who take different actions in the prostitution scenario. The consumer in both scenarios is taking the risk of being immoral. If I force you to be my slave that’s still immoral whether or not I put you to work in my brothel or mine or factory or fishing boat. And if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever, it’s equivalent.",
">\n\n\nAnd if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever , it’s equivalent.\n\nThis is where the false equivalence comes in. \nSomeone making products with slave labor is not renting out a slave to the consumer so that they consumer can force them to perform mining for the consumer. They are enslaving the labor to create a product, and selling the product. Products don't have rights to violate. The only person violating the rights of the slave is the slaver.\nSomeone trafficking a victim is renting out that victim so that the consumer can rape them.",
">\n\nIf the sex is only contractual to you? Why not just \"hook up.\" Why pay? You will never be able to guarantee they are not being trafficked. If they are, they are not going to tell you. I think the idea of money exchanging hands for sex is the why most have a problem. The idea that you are giving a woman money for sex has been historically seen as her being a whore. \nI am not saying she is. I am saying that from the time it first exchanged hands, that is what it was. Men who could not find a woman, paid a woman. Why do you want others to see it differently? Yes, there will be outliers that will enjoy the work. But those are going to be ones that, like the escort, chose it, and charge what they want. Not the typical street hookers on the corner with pimps to pay. \nProve they are not trafficked, they work for themselves, they are clean (of both drugs and diseases - because they are taking care of themselves and being safe), and that they are a sex worker because they enjoy the work or that that chose the work. Then, hey! Pay 'em and get to it!",
">\n\nI think it is morally unhealthy to normalize it. Even though you have to be an adult to smoke weed, we definitely see weed as a normal thing to do in moderation compared to a few decades ago. This is how we would see prostitution if it was normalized. And I think weed has a lot less complications than legalizing prostitution. A LOT!\nSex work online is a lot safer and requires a lot less mental issues to engage in and promote. But even then, I know some sex workers (online type), and they are scarred by the stuff they have seen when it comes to their job. They have told me stories that are extremely disturbing. These are women who just do stuff by themselves. Not working with a porn company and other people.\nAlso, sex has a huge reputation for being violent and demoralizing towards women in general. I'd assume those numbers would be much higher in men looking to pay for sex. You'd have to have extremely strict and tight regulations for this sort of thing, which would take the fun out of it for a lot of people. And even then, there would still be many mistakes that would happen before we find out all the regulations that are needed. And I don't think we could ever make it mentally and physically safe for women.\nNow, do I think it should be decriminalized for prostitutes? Definitely. I don't see them as disgusting. I feel quite bad for them. Most of them were trafficked at a young age. Do I see men wanting to pay for sex as disgusting? Not necessarily. It depends on the person and the situation. However, this isn't a simple issue where if we just \"stop judging people,\" everything will be fine.",
">\n\nDecriminalizing prostitution for both those selling and buying is demonstrably safer for prostitutes. If it is criminal for the buyer but not the seller, the buyer is often highly defensive and paranoid about the seller, specifically the possibility that they may be working with law enforcement. The buyer will often push to do it in a highly isolated setting as well. These things increase violence that sex workers face, and the averages go down in places where it is decriminalized to both buy and sell. If you have a designated work place for it and no one needs to be distrustful and worried about being arrested, that is the safest situation for all involved. \nWe may disagree with buying it for whatever moral reason, but if we choose to criminalize the purchase of it, we are prioritizing punishing behavior we morally disagree with over prioritizing the safety of those involved, which I can't get behind.",
">\n\nBut there are so many more facets to the safety of legalizing it for the buyer other than them being pushy or wanting to do it in a hidden area. If we legalized it, it still wouldn't really help any of the points I made or is even something that is so overwhelmingly an issue compared to the points I made.",
">\n\nSo long as we have to work to live, all jobs are coercive, even sex work. I’m skeptical that there can ever be a consensual exchange within our current economic context.",
">\n\nExactly , I get sex is intimate but if you are willing to view sex work as any other job , you should be willing to treat it as such",
">\n\nSex work has certain occupational hazards that cannot be regulated away. OSHA (in the US) dictates that a person cannot be subject to bodily fluids without proper PPE in the workplace, and often johns just need to pay more to not wear a condom. Imagine a construction site paying workers more to not wear a hard hat. The greater potential for bodily harm is intrinsic to the work, and it will always be unsafe.",
">\n\nTrue but this doesn't really answer my question",
">\n\nMy point is that treating it like any other job is not ethically possible due to hazardous conditions",
">\n\nThis is a bad take.\nI’d wager prostitution doesn’t even rank in the top ten dangerous jobs by capita.",
">\n\nThat really depends. A gas station cashier likely has a higher risk of being killed. But a quick Google shows sex workers are thirty times more likely to get Aids than the general population. They're also at ridiculously high rates of risk to their mental health. Ptsd is common. Also, yes, sitting at a counter in a gas station is technically dangerous. But it is different type of danger compared to someone fucking them in the ass while shoving a sock in their mouth and calling them a dirty whore. When this happens to a prostitute, since she isn't dead, then all good right?! :) Her job isn't dangerous, she's still alive! And they're really not paid much. Average pay for a sex scene in porn for a woman is around $600, for the guy it's like a hundred. For prostitution you're looking at a hundred to two hundred dollars. \nAlso, if you're in the us. Good luck affording health insurance as an independent contractor engaged in sex work.",
">\n\nI’m not exactly impressed with the American system so if you’re criticising Americans health system then fuck yeah more power to you.\nYou raise fantastic points about there being non lethal dangers in sex work that are worth considering and harder to measure.\nThat being said, sit for a while and think about whether you think that sex workers are in a job so dangerous that it deserves its own category and shouldn’t even be allowed. (This is what the commenter I was responding to was claiming)\nI’m comfortable I’d ban lumberjack as a profession long before I considered banning prostitution based on relative level of danger and conditions.\nI don’t have a specific statistic but soldiers at an educated guess would probably be more likely to experience danger and mental issues but the commenter I responded to probably never thought for one second about banning soldiers on that basis.\nIt’s clear bias, being rationalised as something it isn’t.",
">\n\nIt's decriminalised where I live, which means women can arrange anything themselves. So you can have a strip club with a \"hotel\" above it. Basically 100% of the workers are foreign, from places like Ukraine. Russia, Moldova, Romania. Etc. It's a strange aspect which isn't often brought up. But\"legalizing \" almost always results on foreign workers undercutting any local workforce. How can a 26 year old American girl from the burbs compete with an 18 year Thai girl? One is fine doing work at basically the rates of a full time McDonald's employee, while the other isn't. And of course, that breeds the type of people you'd imagine running the business. Even in places like Amsterdam, where there's tons of regulation, you get the same trafficking you see anywhere else.\nSo morally. I've got zero problem. But I've just never seen a model that can actually ensure safety for everyone involved.",
">\n\nWell culture is everything isn't it? Of there wasn't so much sex tourism from places that have prostitution illegal there would probably be less demand wouldn't there? Less demand would make the whole industry safer imo due to the loss of money driving the search for foreign market girls\nLike imagine the whole world has a brothel just down the block. Does that make it more safe just by sheer volume and normality?",
">\n\nFirstly, i'm not religious, i'm sex-positive and the sex lives of strangers rarely concerns me. I don't think paying for these services makes you a \"bad\" person, nor a \"disgusting\" one.. but for me, it would affect your desirability to me as a partner. To me attraction is a big thing, and i'll be honest, I see it as kind of lame. Not morally corrupt but just ...desperate. \nI would want my partner to be someone that women wanted to have sex with, not the man that they had sex with as a purely profitable transaction. Whilst it's consensual, when you involve money or a benefit other than sex, the line slightly blurs, and I find it becomes icky. \nIt's not even that I think my partner should only have had strictly intimate and personable relations... but the question does spring to mind of \"is sex that has been paid for truly consensual? can you guarantee that?\" Even popular Pornstars who previously agreed to do porn and made careers out of it have stories where they later felt disgusted by what they've had to do but were so enamored by the money, they went through with it. Sex workers will ALWAYS sell a positive image to their clients, part of their job is to make you feel desired, but you never truly know the reality. \nAll in all, it can be seen as \"bad\" or \"disgusting\" because monetary rewards affects the lines of purely consensual sex. The same way it can be icky for a boss to have sex with the intern, the same way directors have sex with actresses that want to star in their movies, and the same way rockstars have sex with their fans. Doesn't make 'em rapists, but it's why people won't look at it as respectable.",
">\n\nyou aren’t sex positive if you think paying for sex is desperate.\ndoes paying for alcohol mean you’re desperate for happiness? some people want to have fun so they buy drinks, others find more fun in sex. as long as sex work is consensual and not the result of pimping or some other form of coercion then I don’t see any harm or how it would be desperate.\nthere are tangible benefits to buying sex vs finding it “naturally” that i don’t think you’re considering. \nwith sex workers you’re safer and don’t have to worry about pregnancy, theft, psychotic women, and other risks that come from random hookups with strangers or even casual dating. there’s also the whole “i don’t need to put time and effort into finding and flirting with someone” when it can be on demand. yea making food at home is usually cheaper and better tasting than takeout but sometimes you’re lazy and want a pizza delivered.",
">\n\nI’m generally sex positive to consensual sex between people. However, everything falls on a spectrum and I don’t think you have to have a certain view on every avenue to be as such. Much like you can love your job, your country or your friends but that doesn’t mean you can’t provide any forms of criticism nor must you love EVERY aspect of these things. \nI have no disdain for people who hook up on dating apps, clubs, attend sex parties etc. I will always believe sex workers should have right to practice and do so in a safe environment. I also wouldn’t stop their client base either, it’s not my business, but there are ethical implications and I’ve said my view from the perspective of my partner which naturally i hold to a more personable standard. I wouldn’t want to be with someone who puts their sexual desires above the possible implications involved in sex work. \nI do want to touch on your point that as long as it’s not coerced or forced, it’s okay. The ethical implication behind this is that when you involve money, this is not guaranteed. Not all clients will take the time to research the background and extra people involved behind the scenes. The women with pimps and who are trafficked won’t spill those beans to you. Again, there will always be exceptions to the rule. \nI understand that sex work is convenient to many but my perception is not swayed by the mere idea that paying for sex means you get to avoid having to flirt with women. Much like I can understand why people have no choice to purchase fast fashion and I’ll understand the reasoning but that does not mean I should ignore the child labour and poor conditions that make this possible. \nAll in all, I won’t stop you but I’m going to think it’s kinda lame. You can wear an item of clothing, I’ll defend you to wear that clothing and I won’t make you feel bad for wearing it.. but I may not like it myself.",
">\n\nReading your posts made me think of a bird preening it's feathers to attract a mate. I thought it was just you being obtuse untill you brought fashion into this lol\nYou really are just a pair of eyes arnt you. No complexity attached. \"I saw it in the window so I bought it! I didn't even care that it was 500$ I just wanted it because the other girls were eyeing it down and I just HAD to have it💅\"",
">\n\nI genuinely have no idea what you’re trying to convey. The topic of fashion was merely to represent that there are often complexities and nuance. So yes, I can be sex positive but I don’t necessarily have to agree with all the variances within the to topic of sex. \nI assume I’ve hit a nerve for your style of response.",
">\n\nNot sure about everywhere else but in America being as prostitution is illegal a lot of the situations the workers are in are really sad, depressing and predatory. If you take a look at the book “Pimp” by ice berg slim for example a lot of the industry isn’t the ideal some just wants to make money like any other job and the pimp is just a bodyguard/manger,\nA lot of it involves a tone of manipulation and dependency and when you add on the ones where safe sex isn’t a priority and the literal hundreds of partners you engage with in such a short time it all comes off as kinda gross.",
">\n\nSex, when a service, is not the same as any other service. There is a difference between driving a person somewhere in a taxi and having your face fucked and ejaculated on by a stranger. As many have stated before and as you can see in 99% of porn is that sex as a service is usually degrading towards women. Just look at the front page of any given porn site. Most of it is not, in any way, esteeming of the women participating. Look at goddamn blowjob videos. The women are not giving a blowjob - they are getting their face fucked. Extra points if they have to gag and be obviously physically uncomfortable and struggling to breathe. Dude it is just not the same as someone operating a forklift or making flower arrangements. Most of it is degrading and the more degrading the more klicks - the more people who frequent porn sites like it. And it's the same with prostitution. Read about what these women have experienced. It is plain awful. Sure if you are talking about a utopia where you can be 100% sure the prostitutes are there on their own terms and if every single customer is a loving, caring, gentle person taking care of the sex workers needs as much as their own - then yes, there would not be anything wrong with it. But that is just not how it is.\nHow hard is it, even in a healthy loving relationship, to always have both partners perfectly satisfied and met their needs sexually?\nSex is as intimate as human interaction can get and buying that from someone is taking all incentive away to treat the other person as good as you would treat a partner who you love and/or actively want to enjoy the time with you.\nAnd that is what disgusts people about people who frequent prostitutes. The possibility of being a person who, as long as they pay for something or feel like they've done their dues, doesn't give a shit about what the person on the other end is experiencing.\nedit: Because of other comments from OP I accused them of debating rather than discussing and suggested if they were seeking moral validation for what they do, which in itself was not part of a discussion really. I deleted that part because it serves no neutral purpose.",
">\n\nWell in this context not special but very very different, in the way that it is way more intimate, there's actually a part of ones body entering the others. There is exchange of bodily fluids. Those services are different from each other the same way as a massage is different to shoving items across a scanner, just times ten. One is naked, one experiences pleasure (or great pain) and one is not using their body to do something, they are having their body be used by someone else. That can leave physical bruises and mental scars because one is extremely vulnerable in the act.",
">\n\nMy view on it is that the act in itself is not wrong for anybody involved, but the character implication is what causes it to be met with disgust by some.\nIf you have money and you pay for sex from somebody who is willing, then it's no problem, but the issue comes when you delve into why they might be paying for sex.\nMany people experience sex in a consensual environment with a person who desires sex with them, and no money is involved. Many would view this as a very normal and important part of life.\nThe question that comes up subconsciously and/or consciously is \"why does this person need to pay for sex?\"\nIt could be that they have undeveloped social skills and this coild be deemed as a negative trait that needs to be worked on.\nAnother reason could be an atypically high sex drive, which could also be perceived as sex addiction.\nThese are not unlikely reasons for a person to pay a sex worker for sex and a judgement could be made before understanding more that they possess These sorts of traits that people simply have the desire to avoid.",
">\n\nThis is the correct answer. \nThe reason people look down on people who hire hookers has nothing to do with sex trafficking, or what really qualifies as consent, or any of the other comments in this thread. I think a good example is your iPhone. It is basically made with slave labor, but nobody really gives a shit. They just happily use their phone. If they actually did give a shit, they wouldn't buy iPhones. Also, prostitution has been around basically since the beginning of time. It has always been a part of human relationships and always will be.\nFor better or worse, the reason people look down on people who hire hookers is that it implies you are deficient in some way. If you were better looking or had better social skills or had more control over your base urges you would not need to hire a hooker. \nPersonally, I look at it like a wheelchair. I dont need a wheelchair and I really hope I never need one, but it is not fair (and downright cruel) for me to look down on someone who does use one. Are they deficient in some way? Yes. They can't walk. Do they deserve admonishment or judgement? No. Not at all.",
">\n\nYou're not paying too have sex with a prostitute. You're paying to use her body as a masturbatory aid.\nProstitution reduces women to being commodities, objects, things. Every other job, you're providing a skill to produce or exchange goods and services. Prostitution, the woman is the thing you're purchasing. The women are the commodities, they're not viewed as humen, they're viewed as consumable goods.",
">\n\nJust like almost every other Job, and any other form of sex work like strippers, onlyfans model , some e girl, girls who post theist traps on social media, so what makes those empowering and not this",
">\n\nStrippers, only fans, e-girls are not empowering. It's gross. When it comes down to it, they're sluts. And they're no better than their fuck-boy counterparts.",
">\n\nOK fair so the difference in worldview is what makes argumen unsound to you !delta",
">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/19jals80 (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nYou just can never know for sure whether the sex worker is being trafficked or not. You can't assume they'd tell you the truth if you asked. They might endanger themselves by telling you the truth. The sex worker wants money, and is willing to have some sexual contact with you in order to get the money. But fundamentally, they're permitting you to do something to their body that they do not want in and of itself. Therefore, their consent is dubious and conditional upon your payment. To me, that's not sufficient consent. I want someone I'm having sex with to genuinely, enthusiastically want to have sex with me for the sole purpose of enjoying sex with me. I don't want to use people as means to ends, and I don't want to be used as a means to anyone else's ends.\nI don't morally disapprove of sex work. I just wouldn't support it because it doesn't provide a good or service that interests me. I want actual human connection, which is something money cannot buy. I do morally disapprove of a system that drives people into sex work to get by or get ahead.",
">\n\n\nYou just can never know for sure whether the sex worker is being trafficked or not. \n\nThis argument can be made for any form of low-skilled labor.\nThere is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that sex work uses slavery more often than say construction work or weaving baskets.\nYour argument applies just as easily to buying a shoe, because it could have been constructed by slaves.",
">\n\nYour whataboutism does nothing to resolve the moral question.",
">\n\n“whataboutism” is the new trendy defence for people who've been shown a reductiō ad absurdum it seems.\nI'm showing that your argument can just as easily be used to argue the absurd, and that therefore it can't hold much water. Unless one were to believe in the absurd, and would believe that there is a problem with buying shoes or about any product.",
">\n\nAgain, none of what you've said addresses the moral dilemma in question. Moral questions can't be hand-waved away with empty rhetorical devices. This is still a question of how our choices impact the lives and well-being of others. The fact that we live in a world run by greed does not alleviate the moral burden of making this decision responsibly.",
">\n\nI don't think there is a solid \" yes \" or \" no \" answer to this question. There are so many ( but if's) that it's hard to give more than just an opinion.\n\n\nSpeaking from a Christian perspective, morally, yeah, it's wrong. Because sex is seen as something that's sacred that should be shared between 2 consenting married adults. \n\n\nBut if a woman isn't being forced in any type of way, shape, or form and she simply enjoys cash & realized opening her legs to buyers can get her lots of cash, that's her business. Not anyone else's.",
">\n\nTrying to justify yourself?",
">\n\nWhat is unjustifiable here?",
">\n\nI recently visited one. Frankly I just sought for intimacy. I asked them to kiss me and just take it slow. Because that’s what I miss in my life: intimacy.\nI noticed a lot of people have an opinion on it. I can never tell my parents nor my friends. You can only blame me to be socially maladjusted. I have tried all things I could in dating beforehand and frankly it didn’t work.\nSo… I think it’s something in my character to seek for a prostitute. I don’t think it should be condemned because everyone seeks what I am seeking. Only difference is some people can find it over Tinder or in their social circles, and I have to pay for it. Sorry, I wish it was different but it isn’t.",
">\n\nInteresting post. Thanks.\nWhat would you see that would make you change your mind?\n\nsex is considered intimate and special to some people \n\nWhat if sex is objectively intimate and special, as opposed to “some people” finding it subjectively intimate and special? Would that change your mind?",
">\n\nI think in context of religion and this kind of view yes but if you lack this, you are Into causal sex ,and support sex work I don't get it",
">\n\nThanks for the response.\nLet’s back up…I think we are missing each other. The sub is called r/changemyview, so I first want to understand your view and then have you tell me what would change it. Alternatively, if nothing would change it, I would like to know that, too.\nI think your argument is the following:\nP1: Moral oppobrium is an appropriate response only to moral failures.\nP2: There is no moral aspect to a consensual sex act.\nC1: Therefore, moral oppobrium is not appropriate for (uncoerced) sex workers and their patrons.\nDo I have that right? If not, please correct me.",
">\n\nYou do",
">\n\nWhat about how awfully the punters treat the women who work in prostitution, as this article (and many others) reveals? Would you not look down on these men because of this?",
">\n\nI would but not all men who hire sex workers do this , also this is not a specifically sex worker problem , it can happen even in the confines of a relationship , do you also look down on men who enter relationships with women or just the men who are abusive because it also applies in the cases of sex work porn is part of sex work\nSome of the other issues come with the job which like it or not the one who aren't trafficked consent to it , like the idea that they don't get hired for other jobs , then things like racism , sexual harassment violence , addiction being a single mom has nothing to do with sex work",
">\n\nIt's seen as a character flaw because people are expected to suppress their need for sex to some extent until they find an actual romantic partner. The fact that they can't do that shows they don't care about the expectation to do so and/or are too focused on getting sex to care.",
">\n\npaying for sex is paying for consent",
">\n\nJust like anybody else who works 8 hours for low pay. I didn't know sex was such a horrible thing, or is it just taboo?",
">\n\nAs a sex worker, thank you for this post. A lot of people don't realize that some humans- are incapable of getting laid on their own. Whether it be physical disabilities or emotional /social issues.... Sometimes paying for sex will be the only time certain people ever get touched intimately, and to take that away from...that's really f* up. \nAnd furthermore; I think it's funny that religious people are totally fine with renting a womb to have a baby- but not my body- which is MINE- for my own reasons (money/pleasure)...",
">\n\nI am religious, and am definitely NOT okay with renting wombs. In fact, I see it as far more reprehensible than sex work.",
">\n\n😂 I think you are living a lie/joke so...I think sex work and surrogacy are totally cool",
">\n\nI don't think people see paying for sex as disgusting so long one be pretty and attractive, to be honest.\nPeople just assume that the people that do so are unattractive, and that's probably something that's often true because why pay a fortune for something that many get obtain for free?",
">\n\n\nwhy pay a fortune for something that many get obtain for free?\n\nBecause it's quicker and faster, allows you to fuck 10 great looking chicks at once, puts you in absolute control of what is happening (as they're being hired to pleasure you), and to me it also has a morally iffy and sadistic element which makes it even more enjoyable.\n...\nBut I agree with the first part of your comment though. Besides one single radfem, I've never had a problem with girls judging me for my escort habits, and I'm very open about them.",
">\n\n\nBecause it's quicker and faster, allows you to fuck 10 great looking chicks at once, puts you in absolute control of what is happening (as they're being hired to pleasure you), and to me it also has a morally iffy and sadistic element which makes it even more enjoyable.\n\nThis would also be why visitors of high class prostitutes are not stereotyped to be so unattractive, but simply wealthy, as those prostitutes tend to fit the stereotypes you describe.\nBut most prostitutes are in fact known to provide exceptionally poor sex, which makes paying for it seem even more desperate. They are not as well trained as the high class ones that cost even more.\n\nBut I agree with the first part of your comment though. Besides one single radfem, I've never had a problem with girls judging me for my escort habits, and I'm very open about them.\n\nThen I would assume you are quite good looking, and that you call them “escorts” and your experiences with them also implies you are of considerable monetary means.\nHowever, I will say that if you simply say online “I visit prostitutes regularly.”, that most will assume you are not."
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What is worse about it being a business transaction?
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"/u/Due-Lie-8710 (OP) has awarded 7 delta(s) in this post.\nAll comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.\nPlease note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nThere's a song I like that speaks on this fairly poetically, so I'd like to start by just directly quoting it:\n\nSo when you bled on the bed as you fed those expectations, as a whore and not a human, you embraced with hesitation the very parameters of all you can be. Not a mother, not an aunt, not a sister who's not subdued. Because dignity's not physical, and your flesh means more than you.\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.",
">\n\n\nMany (NOT ALL) of the people purchasing sex look at the worker as a commodity and not a human. And many (NOT ALL) of the general public look at the sex worker as undesirable. And many (NOT ALL) of sex workers are coerced into the industry, either by force or by life circumstance. Until we can truly establish a society which views sex work as \"just another job,\" and rid ourselves of all the aforementioned biases, the people purchasing it are feeding into a broken and hurtful system.\n\nFirst of all if you aren't trafficked it is just like another job, as for you both being seen as human , make sense hey aren't there to befriend to have sex , you are performing a service, it's like you watching football or a movie, you only see them as footballers ot actors , half of the time they don't care about their personal life, there are some jobs that prevent you from getting any high paying jobs or jobs that involve care , as for the people purchasing it , if you can't purchase it then why should they sell it , you don't actually support sex work, because that would mean accepting the consumer base ad well as the supplier",
">\n\nThat’s a really big if though, sex work isn’t exactly an industry where you will know for sure if the service you’re getting is consensual. individuals who are victims of sexual trafficking, coercion, or just life circumstance aren’t likely to just tell their “customers” if it isn’t consensual. they could endanger themselves or not be aware that they can say something. \nSeeing someone as an object vs seeing them as an individual with a job aren’t the same though? yes we recognize actors and football players by their career choice and how well they are at it, but they’re still people at the end of the day? that’s why they have fanbases, interviews, paparazzi, popularity on social media, movie adaptions of their life exist—people are interested in more than them just doing their job.\nA persons job is no reason to suddenly strip them of their humanity and rights granted them for being such, that kind of mentality is morally skewed and why a lot of people would not support sex work. plus you can’t say it makes sense for sex workers to be see as commodities only and then believe sex work will be consensual. the whole consent part comes from recognizing that this is another person who has their own boundaries and limits beyond just what you want.",
">\n\nokay, that’s a plumber and not a person you’re having sex with. unlike plumbing which is clean cut, sex can include multiple aspects of different kinks and fetishes. You can’t expect a sex worker to be okay with say participating in rape play, anal, scat, and a mirage of other kinks simply because they agreed to sex. Sex is not clean cut, there is more to it. There has to be a boundary somewhere, this is another person body not a pipe.",
">\n\nThat’s like the point? recognizing the boundary and proceeding from there by RESPECTING the boundary because they are another person and not some masturbatory object. What you just said was a consensual interaction. The initial point was that there is no consensual sex without respecting the party that’s giving as a person.",
">\n\nSo... there's a concept of a moral hazard. \nThere's literally no way for an individual to be certain that their prostitute is not being coerced/trafficked. Even if there are some special circumstances where it might be unlikely, certainty is still impossible, and most people frequenting prostitutes are not in those special circumstances.\nSomeone using their services is therefore extremely likely to be comfortable with risking that they are unknowingly raping someone. \nGenerally speaking, people find that disgusting.",
">\n\nIf you eat chocolate (even the stuff with the fair trade sticker) then there's no guarantee that it hasn't come from slave farms which are not uncommon. If you eat chocolate throughout your life then you are almost definitely contributing to slavery. If you visit a prostitute regularly then the chance they're being exploited is anywhere from functioninally 0% to 100%. So why treat the John who might be discerning with scorn and not the chocolate eater who is a much safer bet in having contributed to coerced labour.",
">\n\nIt's worth trying to avoid those situations, but ultimately it's a very false equivalence to hold people responsible for the actions of others, vs. their own personal actions.\nWhen you buy chocolate, you're not actually holding a gun to a slave, someone else is. The right answer to that is to lobby for worker protections for imported goods, and to try to end involuntary servitude within your country as well. \nWhen you have sex with a trafficked person, you personally literally raped them. If you don't have good evidence to know they aren't trafficked, you're personally ok with the possibility you're going to personally rape them. \nBoth might be considered bad. But it's a false equivalence.\nAnd sure... if someone is paying someone for sex when they are personal friends with them, and interact with them outside of prostitution enough to personally know that they aren't being trafficked... and you're sure they aren't lying, scorning them more than at most some light ribbing isn't justified. It's not like \"sugar daddies\" aren't a thing as well. At the very least much less disapprobation would be appropriate.",
">\n\nIn both cases, there is a customer receiving a service provided by a potentially enslaved person. They are morally equivalent. It makes no sense to say “sure I bought the slavery chocolate, but you can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”",
">\n\n\nyou can’t hold me responsible for the slavers actions!”\n\nThe slavers actions are distinct from the consumers' actions for most things. \nThis is an actual important difference when it comes to prostitution. \nIgnoring that fundamental difference doesn't make it go away, and it's entirely reasonable for someone to make that distinction.",
">\n\nThe slaver and consumer are different people who take different actions in the prostitution scenario. The consumer in both scenarios is taking the risk of being immoral. If I force you to be my slave that’s still immoral whether or not I put you to work in my brothel or mine or factory or fishing boat. And if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever, it’s equivalent.",
">\n\n\nAnd if I rent your services out to customers who aren’t aware you’re a slave, it doesn’t matter whether the service is sex or mining or fishing or whatever , it’s equivalent.\n\nThis is where the false equivalence comes in. \nSomeone making products with slave labor is not renting out a slave to the consumer so that they consumer can force them to perform mining for the consumer. They are enslaving the labor to create a product, and selling the product. Products don't have rights to violate. The only person violating the rights of the slave is the slaver.\nSomeone trafficking a victim is renting out that victim so that the consumer can rape them.",
">\n\nIf the sex is only contractual to you? Why not just \"hook up.\" Why pay? You will never be able to guarantee they are not being trafficked. If they are, they are not going to tell you. I think the idea of money exchanging hands for sex is the why most have a problem. The idea that you are giving a woman money for sex has been historically seen as her being a whore. \nI am not saying she is. I am saying that from the time it first exchanged hands, that is what it was. Men who could not find a woman, paid a woman. Why do you want others to see it differently? Yes, there will be outliers that will enjoy the work. But those are going to be ones that, like the escort, chose it, and charge what they want. Not the typical street hookers on the corner with pimps to pay. \nProve they are not trafficked, they work for themselves, they are clean (of both drugs and diseases - because they are taking care of themselves and being safe), and that they are a sex worker because they enjoy the work or that that chose the work. Then, hey! Pay 'em and get to it!",
">\n\nI think it is morally unhealthy to normalize it. Even though you have to be an adult to smoke weed, we definitely see weed as a normal thing to do in moderation compared to a few decades ago. This is how we would see prostitution if it was normalized. And I think weed has a lot less complications than legalizing prostitution. A LOT!\nSex work online is a lot safer and requires a lot less mental issues to engage in and promote. But even then, I know some sex workers (online type), and they are scarred by the stuff they have seen when it comes to their job. They have told me stories that are extremely disturbing. These are women who just do stuff by themselves. Not working with a porn company and other people.\nAlso, sex has a huge reputation for being violent and demoralizing towards women in general. I'd assume those numbers would be much higher in men looking to pay for sex. You'd have to have extremely strict and tight regulations for this sort of thing, which would take the fun out of it for a lot of people. And even then, there would still be many mistakes that would happen before we find out all the regulations that are needed. And I don't think we could ever make it mentally and physically safe for women.\nNow, do I think it should be decriminalized for prostitutes? Definitely. I don't see them as disgusting. I feel quite bad for them. Most of them were trafficked at a young age. Do I see men wanting to pay for sex as disgusting? Not necessarily. It depends on the person and the situation. However, this isn't a simple issue where if we just \"stop judging people,\" everything will be fine.",
">\n\nDecriminalizing prostitution for both those selling and buying is demonstrably safer for prostitutes. If it is criminal for the buyer but not the seller, the buyer is often highly defensive and paranoid about the seller, specifically the possibility that they may be working with law enforcement. The buyer will often push to do it in a highly isolated setting as well. These things increase violence that sex workers face, and the averages go down in places where it is decriminalized to both buy and sell. If you have a designated work place for it and no one needs to be distrustful and worried about being arrested, that is the safest situation for all involved. \nWe may disagree with buying it for whatever moral reason, but if we choose to criminalize the purchase of it, we are prioritizing punishing behavior we morally disagree with over prioritizing the safety of those involved, which I can't get behind.",
">\n\nBut there are so many more facets to the safety of legalizing it for the buyer other than them being pushy or wanting to do it in a hidden area. If we legalized it, it still wouldn't really help any of the points I made or is even something that is so overwhelmingly an issue compared to the points I made.",
">\n\nSo long as we have to work to live, all jobs are coercive, even sex work. I’m skeptical that there can ever be a consensual exchange within our current economic context.",
">\n\nExactly , I get sex is intimate but if you are willing to view sex work as any other job , you should be willing to treat it as such",
">\n\nSex work has certain occupational hazards that cannot be regulated away. OSHA (in the US) dictates that a person cannot be subject to bodily fluids without proper PPE in the workplace, and often johns just need to pay more to not wear a condom. Imagine a construction site paying workers more to not wear a hard hat. The greater potential for bodily harm is intrinsic to the work, and it will always be unsafe.",
">\n\nTrue but this doesn't really answer my question",
">\n\nMy point is that treating it like any other job is not ethically possible due to hazardous conditions",
">\n\nThis is a bad take.\nI’d wager prostitution doesn’t even rank in the top ten dangerous jobs by capita.",
">\n\nThat really depends. A gas station cashier likely has a higher risk of being killed. But a quick Google shows sex workers are thirty times more likely to get Aids than the general population. They're also at ridiculously high rates of risk to their mental health. Ptsd is common. Also, yes, sitting at a counter in a gas station is technically dangerous. But it is different type of danger compared to someone fucking them in the ass while shoving a sock in their mouth and calling them a dirty whore. When this happens to a prostitute, since she isn't dead, then all good right?! :) Her job isn't dangerous, she's still alive! And they're really not paid much. Average pay for a sex scene in porn for a woman is around $600, for the guy it's like a hundred. For prostitution you're looking at a hundred to two hundred dollars. \nAlso, if you're in the us. Good luck affording health insurance as an independent contractor engaged in sex work.",
">\n\nI’m not exactly impressed with the American system so if you’re criticising Americans health system then fuck yeah more power to you.\nYou raise fantastic points about there being non lethal dangers in sex work that are worth considering and harder to measure.\nThat being said, sit for a while and think about whether you think that sex workers are in a job so dangerous that it deserves its own category and shouldn’t even be allowed. (This is what the commenter I was responding to was claiming)\nI’m comfortable I’d ban lumberjack as a profession long before I considered banning prostitution based on relative level of danger and conditions.\nI don’t have a specific statistic but soldiers at an educated guess would probably be more likely to experience danger and mental issues but the commenter I responded to probably never thought for one second about banning soldiers on that basis.\nIt’s clear bias, being rationalised as something it isn’t.",
">\n\nIt's decriminalised where I live, which means women can arrange anything themselves. So you can have a strip club with a \"hotel\" above it. Basically 100% of the workers are foreign, from places like Ukraine. Russia, Moldova, Romania. Etc. It's a strange aspect which isn't often brought up. But\"legalizing \" almost always results on foreign workers undercutting any local workforce. How can a 26 year old American girl from the burbs compete with an 18 year Thai girl? One is fine doing work at basically the rates of a full time McDonald's employee, while the other isn't. And of course, that breeds the type of people you'd imagine running the business. Even in places like Amsterdam, where there's tons of regulation, you get the same trafficking you see anywhere else.\nSo morally. I've got zero problem. But I've just never seen a model that can actually ensure safety for everyone involved.",
">\n\nWell culture is everything isn't it? Of there wasn't so much sex tourism from places that have prostitution illegal there would probably be less demand wouldn't there? Less demand would make the whole industry safer imo due to the loss of money driving the search for foreign market girls\nLike imagine the whole world has a brothel just down the block. Does that make it more safe just by sheer volume and normality?",
">\n\nFirstly, i'm not religious, i'm sex-positive and the sex lives of strangers rarely concerns me. I don't think paying for these services makes you a \"bad\" person, nor a \"disgusting\" one.. but for me, it would affect your desirability to me as a partner. To me attraction is a big thing, and i'll be honest, I see it as kind of lame. Not morally corrupt but just ...desperate. \nI would want my partner to be someone that women wanted to have sex with, not the man that they had sex with as a purely profitable transaction. Whilst it's consensual, when you involve money or a benefit other than sex, the line slightly blurs, and I find it becomes icky. \nIt's not even that I think my partner should only have had strictly intimate and personable relations... but the question does spring to mind of \"is sex that has been paid for truly consensual? can you guarantee that?\" Even popular Pornstars who previously agreed to do porn and made careers out of it have stories where they later felt disgusted by what they've had to do but were so enamored by the money, they went through with it. Sex workers will ALWAYS sell a positive image to their clients, part of their job is to make you feel desired, but you never truly know the reality. \nAll in all, it can be seen as \"bad\" or \"disgusting\" because monetary rewards affects the lines of purely consensual sex. The same way it can be icky for a boss to have sex with the intern, the same way directors have sex with actresses that want to star in their movies, and the same way rockstars have sex with their fans. Doesn't make 'em rapists, but it's why people won't look at it as respectable.",
">\n\nyou aren’t sex positive if you think paying for sex is desperate.\ndoes paying for alcohol mean you’re desperate for happiness? some people want to have fun so they buy drinks, others find more fun in sex. as long as sex work is consensual and not the result of pimping or some other form of coercion then I don’t see any harm or how it would be desperate.\nthere are tangible benefits to buying sex vs finding it “naturally” that i don’t think you’re considering. \nwith sex workers you’re safer and don’t have to worry about pregnancy, theft, psychotic women, and other risks that come from random hookups with strangers or even casual dating. there’s also the whole “i don’t need to put time and effort into finding and flirting with someone” when it can be on demand. yea making food at home is usually cheaper and better tasting than takeout but sometimes you’re lazy and want a pizza delivered.",
">\n\nI’m generally sex positive to consensual sex between people. However, everything falls on a spectrum and I don’t think you have to have a certain view on every avenue to be as such. Much like you can love your job, your country or your friends but that doesn’t mean you can’t provide any forms of criticism nor must you love EVERY aspect of these things. \nI have no disdain for people who hook up on dating apps, clubs, attend sex parties etc. I will always believe sex workers should have right to practice and do so in a safe environment. I also wouldn’t stop their client base either, it’s not my business, but there are ethical implications and I’ve said my view from the perspective of my partner which naturally i hold to a more personable standard. I wouldn’t want to be with someone who puts their sexual desires above the possible implications involved in sex work. \nI do want to touch on your point that as long as it’s not coerced or forced, it’s okay. The ethical implication behind this is that when you involve money, this is not guaranteed. Not all clients will take the time to research the background and extra people involved behind the scenes. The women with pimps and who are trafficked won’t spill those beans to you. Again, there will always be exceptions to the rule. \nI understand that sex work is convenient to many but my perception is not swayed by the mere idea that paying for sex means you get to avoid having to flirt with women. Much like I can understand why people have no choice to purchase fast fashion and I’ll understand the reasoning but that does not mean I should ignore the child labour and poor conditions that make this possible. \nAll in all, I won’t stop you but I’m going to think it’s kinda lame. You can wear an item of clothing, I’ll defend you to wear that clothing and I won’t make you feel bad for wearing it.. but I may not like it myself.",
">\n\nReading your posts made me think of a bird preening it's feathers to attract a mate. I thought it was just you being obtuse untill you brought fashion into this lol\nYou really are just a pair of eyes arnt you. No complexity attached. \"I saw it in the window so I bought it! I didn't even care that it was 500$ I just wanted it because the other girls were eyeing it down and I just HAD to have it💅\"",
">\n\nI genuinely have no idea what you’re trying to convey. The topic of fashion was merely to represent that there are often complexities and nuance. So yes, I can be sex positive but I don’t necessarily have to agree with all the variances within the to topic of sex. \nI assume I’ve hit a nerve for your style of response.",
">\n\nNot sure about everywhere else but in America being as prostitution is illegal a lot of the situations the workers are in are really sad, depressing and predatory. If you take a look at the book “Pimp” by ice berg slim for example a lot of the industry isn’t the ideal some just wants to make money like any other job and the pimp is just a bodyguard/manger,\nA lot of it involves a tone of manipulation and dependency and when you add on the ones where safe sex isn’t a priority and the literal hundreds of partners you engage with in such a short time it all comes off as kinda gross.",
">\n\nSex, when a service, is not the same as any other service. There is a difference between driving a person somewhere in a taxi and having your face fucked and ejaculated on by a stranger. As many have stated before and as you can see in 99% of porn is that sex as a service is usually degrading towards women. Just look at the front page of any given porn site. Most of it is not, in any way, esteeming of the women participating. Look at goddamn blowjob videos. The women are not giving a blowjob - they are getting their face fucked. Extra points if they have to gag and be obviously physically uncomfortable and struggling to breathe. Dude it is just not the same as someone operating a forklift or making flower arrangements. Most of it is degrading and the more degrading the more klicks - the more people who frequent porn sites like it. And it's the same with prostitution. Read about what these women have experienced. It is plain awful. Sure if you are talking about a utopia where you can be 100% sure the prostitutes are there on their own terms and if every single customer is a loving, caring, gentle person taking care of the sex workers needs as much as their own - then yes, there would not be anything wrong with it. But that is just not how it is.\nHow hard is it, even in a healthy loving relationship, to always have both partners perfectly satisfied and met their needs sexually?\nSex is as intimate as human interaction can get and buying that from someone is taking all incentive away to treat the other person as good as you would treat a partner who you love and/or actively want to enjoy the time with you.\nAnd that is what disgusts people about people who frequent prostitutes. The possibility of being a person who, as long as they pay for something or feel like they've done their dues, doesn't give a shit about what the person on the other end is experiencing.\nedit: Because of other comments from OP I accused them of debating rather than discussing and suggested if they were seeking moral validation for what they do, which in itself was not part of a discussion really. I deleted that part because it serves no neutral purpose.",
">\n\nWell in this context not special but very very different, in the way that it is way more intimate, there's actually a part of ones body entering the others. There is exchange of bodily fluids. Those services are different from each other the same way as a massage is different to shoving items across a scanner, just times ten. One is naked, one experiences pleasure (or great pain) and one is not using their body to do something, they are having their body be used by someone else. That can leave physical bruises and mental scars because one is extremely vulnerable in the act.",
">\n\nMy view on it is that the act in itself is not wrong for anybody involved, but the character implication is what causes it to be met with disgust by some.\nIf you have money and you pay for sex from somebody who is willing, then it's no problem, but the issue comes when you delve into why they might be paying for sex.\nMany people experience sex in a consensual environment with a person who desires sex with them, and no money is involved. Many would view this as a very normal and important part of life.\nThe question that comes up subconsciously and/or consciously is \"why does this person need to pay for sex?\"\nIt could be that they have undeveloped social skills and this coild be deemed as a negative trait that needs to be worked on.\nAnother reason could be an atypically high sex drive, which could also be perceived as sex addiction.\nThese are not unlikely reasons for a person to pay a sex worker for sex and a judgement could be made before understanding more that they possess These sorts of traits that people simply have the desire to avoid.",
">\n\nThis is the correct answer. \nThe reason people look down on people who hire hookers has nothing to do with sex trafficking, or what really qualifies as consent, or any of the other comments in this thread. I think a good example is your iPhone. It is basically made with slave labor, but nobody really gives a shit. They just happily use their phone. If they actually did give a shit, they wouldn't buy iPhones. Also, prostitution has been around basically since the beginning of time. It has always been a part of human relationships and always will be.\nFor better or worse, the reason people look down on people who hire hookers is that it implies you are deficient in some way. If you were better looking or had better social skills or had more control over your base urges you would not need to hire a hooker. \nPersonally, I look at it like a wheelchair. I dont need a wheelchair and I really hope I never need one, but it is not fair (and downright cruel) for me to look down on someone who does use one. Are they deficient in some way? Yes. They can't walk. Do they deserve admonishment or judgement? No. Not at all.",
">\n\nYou're not paying too have sex with a prostitute. You're paying to use her body as a masturbatory aid.\nProstitution reduces women to being commodities, objects, things. Every other job, you're providing a skill to produce or exchange goods and services. Prostitution, the woman is the thing you're purchasing. The women are the commodities, they're not viewed as humen, they're viewed as consumable goods.",
">\n\nJust like almost every other Job, and any other form of sex work like strippers, onlyfans model , some e girl, girls who post theist traps on social media, so what makes those empowering and not this",
">\n\nStrippers, only fans, e-girls are not empowering. It's gross. When it comes down to it, they're sluts. And they're no better than their fuck-boy counterparts.",
">\n\nOK fair so the difference in worldview is what makes argumen unsound to you !delta",
">\n\nConfirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/19jals80 (1∆).\n^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards",
">\n\nYou just can never know for sure whether the sex worker is being trafficked or not. You can't assume they'd tell you the truth if you asked. They might endanger themselves by telling you the truth. The sex worker wants money, and is willing to have some sexual contact with you in order to get the money. But fundamentally, they're permitting you to do something to their body that they do not want in and of itself. Therefore, their consent is dubious and conditional upon your payment. To me, that's not sufficient consent. I want someone I'm having sex with to genuinely, enthusiastically want to have sex with me for the sole purpose of enjoying sex with me. I don't want to use people as means to ends, and I don't want to be used as a means to anyone else's ends.\nI don't morally disapprove of sex work. I just wouldn't support it because it doesn't provide a good or service that interests me. I want actual human connection, which is something money cannot buy. I do morally disapprove of a system that drives people into sex work to get by or get ahead.",
">\n\n\nYou just can never know for sure whether the sex worker is being trafficked or not. \n\nThis argument can be made for any form of low-skilled labor.\nThere is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that sex work uses slavery more often than say construction work or weaving baskets.\nYour argument applies just as easily to buying a shoe, because it could have been constructed by slaves.",
">\n\nYour whataboutism does nothing to resolve the moral question.",
">\n\n“whataboutism” is the new trendy defence for people who've been shown a reductiō ad absurdum it seems.\nI'm showing that your argument can just as easily be used to argue the absurd, and that therefore it can't hold much water. Unless one were to believe in the absurd, and would believe that there is a problem with buying shoes or about any product.",
">\n\nAgain, none of what you've said addresses the moral dilemma in question. Moral questions can't be hand-waved away with empty rhetorical devices. This is still a question of how our choices impact the lives and well-being of others. The fact that we live in a world run by greed does not alleviate the moral burden of making this decision responsibly.",
">\n\nI don't think there is a solid \" yes \" or \" no \" answer to this question. There are so many ( but if's) that it's hard to give more than just an opinion.\n\n\nSpeaking from a Christian perspective, morally, yeah, it's wrong. Because sex is seen as something that's sacred that should be shared between 2 consenting married adults. \n\n\nBut if a woman isn't being forced in any type of way, shape, or form and she simply enjoys cash & realized opening her legs to buyers can get her lots of cash, that's her business. Not anyone else's.",
">\n\nTrying to justify yourself?",
">\n\nWhat is unjustifiable here?",
">\n\nI recently visited one. Frankly I just sought for intimacy. I asked them to kiss me and just take it slow. Because that’s what I miss in my life: intimacy.\nI noticed a lot of people have an opinion on it. I can never tell my parents nor my friends. You can only blame me to be socially maladjusted. I have tried all things I could in dating beforehand and frankly it didn’t work.\nSo… I think it’s something in my character to seek for a prostitute. I don’t think it should be condemned because everyone seeks what I am seeking. Only difference is some people can find it over Tinder or in their social circles, and I have to pay for it. Sorry, I wish it was different but it isn’t.",
">\n\nInteresting post. Thanks.\nWhat would you see that would make you change your mind?\n\nsex is considered intimate and special to some people \n\nWhat if sex is objectively intimate and special, as opposed to “some people” finding it subjectively intimate and special? Would that change your mind?",
">\n\nI think in context of religion and this kind of view yes but if you lack this, you are Into causal sex ,and support sex work I don't get it",
">\n\nThanks for the response.\nLet’s back up…I think we are missing each other. The sub is called r/changemyview, so I first want to understand your view and then have you tell me what would change it. Alternatively, if nothing would change it, I would like to know that, too.\nI think your argument is the following:\nP1: Moral oppobrium is an appropriate response only to moral failures.\nP2: There is no moral aspect to a consensual sex act.\nC1: Therefore, moral oppobrium is not appropriate for (uncoerced) sex workers and their patrons.\nDo I have that right? If not, please correct me.",
">\n\nYou do",
">\n\nWhat about how awfully the punters treat the women who work in prostitution, as this article (and many others) reveals? Would you not look down on these men because of this?",
">\n\nI would but not all men who hire sex workers do this , also this is not a specifically sex worker problem , it can happen even in the confines of a relationship , do you also look down on men who enter relationships with women or just the men who are abusive because it also applies in the cases of sex work porn is part of sex work\nSome of the other issues come with the job which like it or not the one who aren't trafficked consent to it , like the idea that they don't get hired for other jobs , then things like racism , sexual harassment violence , addiction being a single mom has nothing to do with sex work",
">\n\nIt's seen as a character flaw because people are expected to suppress their need for sex to some extent until they find an actual romantic partner. The fact that they can't do that shows they don't care about the expectation to do so and/or are too focused on getting sex to care.",
">\n\npaying for sex is paying for consent",
">\n\nJust like anybody else who works 8 hours for low pay. I didn't know sex was such a horrible thing, or is it just taboo?",
">\n\nAs a sex worker, thank you for this post. A lot of people don't realize that some humans- are incapable of getting laid on their own. Whether it be physical disabilities or emotional /social issues.... Sometimes paying for sex will be the only time certain people ever get touched intimately, and to take that away from...that's really f* up. \nAnd furthermore; I think it's funny that religious people are totally fine with renting a womb to have a baby- but not my body- which is MINE- for my own reasons (money/pleasure)...",
">\n\nI am religious, and am definitely NOT okay with renting wombs. In fact, I see it as far more reprehensible than sex work.",
">\n\n😂 I think you are living a lie/joke so...I think sex work and surrogacy are totally cool",
">\n\nI don't think people see paying for sex as disgusting so long one be pretty and attractive, to be honest.\nPeople just assume that the people that do so are unattractive, and that's probably something that's often true because why pay a fortune for something that many get obtain for free?",
">\n\n\nwhy pay a fortune for something that many get obtain for free?\n\nBecause it's quicker and faster, allows you to fuck 10 great looking chicks at once, puts you in absolute control of what is happening (as they're being hired to pleasure you), and to me it also has a morally iffy and sadistic element which makes it even more enjoyable.\n...\nBut I agree with the first part of your comment though. Besides one single radfem, I've never had a problem with girls judging me for my escort habits, and I'm very open about them.",
">\n\n\nBecause it's quicker and faster, allows you to fuck 10 great looking chicks at once, puts you in absolute control of what is happening (as they're being hired to pleasure you), and to me it also has a morally iffy and sadistic element which makes it even more enjoyable.\n\nThis would also be why visitors of high class prostitutes are not stereotyped to be so unattractive, but simply wealthy, as those prostitutes tend to fit the stereotypes you describe.\nBut most prostitutes are in fact known to provide exceptionally poor sex, which makes paying for it seem even more desperate. They are not as well trained as the high class ones that cost even more.\n\nBut I agree with the first part of your comment though. Besides one single radfem, I've never had a problem with girls judging me for my escort habits, and I'm very open about them.\n\nThen I would assume you are quite good looking, and that you call them “escorts” and your experiences with them also implies you are of considerable monetary means.\nHowever, I will say that if you simply say online “I visit prostitutes regularly.”, that most will assume you are not.",
">\n\nOn one hand, we shouldn't judge people. On the other hand, it's good to have strong moral beliefs. One of my beliefs is that sex outside of marriage is very immoral. Reducing it to a business transaction is even worse."
] |
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