text: IRC log of tagmem on 2007-02-26
  Timestamps are in UTC.
  16:50:36 [RRSAgent]
  RRSAgent has joined #tagmem
  16:50:36 [RRSAgent]
  logging to
  16:50:40 [Stuart]
  ....to come her
  16:50:54 [observer_JacekK]
  same for zakim
  16:51:09 [Stuart]
  oh... it is here already... how did that happen? Henry I guess.
  16:51:17 [observer_JacekK]
  I just did it
  16:51:28 [observer_JacekK]
  oh, it doesn't show that I invited it
  16:51:42 [Zakim]
  Zakim has joined #tagmem
  16:52:08 [Stuart]
  Ah I was putting an extraneous comma in the command.
  16:52:35 [observer_JacekK]
  muscle memory from years of using the bot, yes 8-)
  16:55:53 [timbl]
  timbl has joined #tagmem
  16:58:06 [Stuart]
  zakim, this is tag
  16:58:06 [Zakim]
  Stuart, I see TAG_Weekly()12:00PM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be tag".
  16:58:32 [Stuart]
  zakim, this will be tag
  16:58:32 [Zakim]
  ok, Stuart; I see TAG_Weekly()12:00PM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
  16:58:36 [Rhys]
  Rhys has joined #tagmem
  16:58:39 [Zakim]
  TAG_Weekly()12:00PM has now started
  16:58:46 [Zakim]
  +??P18
  16:58:55 [Stuart]
  zakim, ??p18 is me
  16:58:55 [Zakim]
  +Stuart; got it
  16:59:41 [Zakim]
  + +0148373aaaa
  17:00:06 [Stuart]
  zakim, +0148373aaaa is Rhys
  17:00:06 [Zakim]
  +Rhys; got it
  17:00:34 [Zakim]
  +Raman
  17:00:50 [raman]
  raman has joined #tagmem
  17:02:18 [Norm]
  Meeting: TAG
  17:02:18 [Norm]
  Date: 26 Feb 2007
  17:02:18 [Norm]
  Agenda:
  17:02:18 [Norm]
  Chair: Stuart
  17:02:18 [Norm]
  Scribe: Norm
  17:02:19 [Norm]
  ScribeNick: Norm
  17:02:29 [Noah]
  Noah has joined #tagmem
  17:02:40 [Stuart]
  zakim, who is here
  17:02:40 [Zakim]
  Stuart, you need to end that query with '?'
  17:02:43 [Stuart]
  zakim, who is here?
  17:02:43 [Zakim]
  On the phone I see Stuart, Rhys, Raman
  17:02:44 [Zakim]
  On IRC I see Noah, raman, Rhys, timbl, Zakim, RRSAgent, ht_london, Stuart, observer_JacekK, Norm
  17:02:45 [Zakim]
  +Noah_Mendelsohn
  17:02:52 [Zakim]
  +Norm
  17:03:11 [Stuart]
  zakim, who is here?
  17:03:11 [Zakim]
  On the phone I see Stuart, Rhys, Raman, Noah_Mendelsohn, Norm
  17:03:12 [Zakim]
  On IRC I see Noah, raman, Rhys, timbl, Zakim, RRSAgent, ht_london, Stuart, observer_JacekK, Norm
  17:03:23 [raman]
  a regret-free week
  17:03:36 [Zakim]
  +[INRIA]
  17:03:48 [Zakim]
  +TimBL
  17:03:56 [Vincent]
  Vincent has joined #tagmem
  17:04:15 [Vincent]
  Zakim, who is here?
  17:04:15 [Zakim]
  On the phone I see Stuart, Rhys, Raman, Noah_Mendelsohn, Norm, [INRIA], TimBL
  17:04:17 [Zakim]
  On IRC I see Vincent, Noah, raman, Rhys, timbl, Zakim, RRSAgent, ht_london, Stuart, observer_JacekK, Norm
  17:04:34 [Vincent]
  Zakim, INRIA is Vincent
  17:04:34 [Zakim]
  +Vincent; got it
  17:05:07 [Norm]
  Present: Stuart, Rhys, Raman, Noah, Norm, Vincent, TimBL
  17:05:33 [Norm]
  zakim, who's on the phone?
  17:05:33 [Zakim]
  On the phone I see Stuart, Rhys, Raman, Noah_Mendelsohn, Norm, Vincent, TimBL
  17:05:41 [Rhys]
  It was Tim's keynote at 3GSM07 in Barcelona
  17:05:45 [Norm]
  Ah
  17:07:00 [Norm]
  Topic: Administrivia
  17:07:13 [Norm]
  Stuart: Are we ok with Jacek observing?
  17:07:21 [Norm]
  Group: Yes.
  17:07:22 [Stuart]
  jacek, please intro your self for the record
  17:07:56 [observer_JacekK]
  I am here as the chair of SAWSDL WG and member of WS-Desc WG
  17:07:58 [raman]
  zakim, who is talking?
  17:07:59 [Norm]
  Absent: David, Dan, Henry
  17:08:09 [Zakim]
  raman, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Stuart (66%)
  17:08:10 [observer_JacekK]
  Jacek Kopecky, DERI Innsbruck
  17:08:22 [Norm]
  Topic: Accept minutes of 12 Feb 2007
  17:08:26 [Norm]
  Accepted.
  17:08:31 [Norm]
  Topic: Accept this agenda?
  17:08:36 [raman]
  zakim, who is here?
  17:08:36 [Zakim]
  On the phone I see Stuart, Rhys, Raman, Noah_Mendelsohn, Norm, Vincent, TimBL
  17:08:38 [Zakim]
  On IRC I see Vincent, Noah, raman, Rhys, timbl, Zakim, RRSAgent, ht_london, Stuart, observer_JacekK, Norm
  17:08:49 [raman]
  zakim, who is talking?
  17:09:05 [Zakim]
  raman, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
  17:09:13 [raman]
  zakim, who is amking noise?
  17:09:13 [Zakim]
  I don't understand your question, raman.
  17:09:26 [Norm]
  Stuart: whenToUseGet-7 has had some discussion, pointed to from the agenda.
  17:09:27 [raman]
  zakim, who is making noise?
  17:09:43 [Zakim]
  raman, listening for 13 seconds I heard sound from the following: Stuart (96%)
  17:09:46 [timbl]
  timbl has changed the topic to:
  17:09:48 [Norm]
  ...For xmlFunctions-34 I'm hoping Henry will join
  17:10:01 [Norm]
  Stuart: Someone brought up CURIEs on the member list.
  17:10:08 [Norm]
  Stuart: Rhys asked about AOB.
  17:10:15 [Norm]
  Rhys: Yes, a finding for httpRange-14.
  17:10:27 [Norm]
  Stuart: Everyone happy with that agenda?
  17:10:42 [Norm]
  Raman: Passwords in the clear seems to have slipped through the cracks.
  17:11:08 [Norm]
  Stuart: Yes, I'll continue to coordinate with Ed until he can come.
  17:11:18 [Norm]
  Agenda accepted.
  17:11:26 [Norm]
  Topic: Next telcon: 12 Mar 2007
  17:11:35 [Norm]
  Henry proposed to scribe.
  17:11:42 [Norm]
  No regrets given.
  17:11:52 [Norm]
  Topic: Face-to-face preparation
  17:12:03 [Norm]
  TimBL gives regrets for 12 Mar
  17:12:08 [timbl]
  I give my regrets for March 12
  17:12:51 [Stuart]
  17:13:09 [Norm]
  Stuart: I put out an appeal for topics to discuss; several have responded.
  17:13:19 [Norm]
  ...I'd like to do a little bit of reflection at the beginning of the meeting.
  17:13:40 [Norm]
  Stuart: Noah has suggested that we spend some time on the self describing web.
  17:13:55 [ht_london]
  zakim, please call ht-Mobile
  17:13:55 [Zakim]
  ok, ht_london; the call is being made
  17:13:56 [DanC]
  DanC has joined #tagmem
  17:13:57 [Zakim]
  +Ht
  17:14:06 [Norm]
  Noah: You intend that to include both the broader issue and xmlFunctions?
  17:14:09 [Norm]
  Stuart: yes.
  17:14:11 [Zakim]
  +DanC
  17:14:23 [Norm]
  Stuart: Norm will lead something on namespaceDocument-8
  17:14:34 [Norm]
  Stuart: Dan/Raman both indicated interest in some discussion on tagSoupIntegration-54
  17:14:57 [ht_london]
  zakim, ht is ht_london
  17:14:57 [Zakim]
  +ht_london; got it
  17:14:58 [Norm]
  Stuart: I hope Norm and Dan/Raman will fill in that part of the agenda.
  17:15:24 [DanC]
  (the version of the acme thing from last ftf is world-readable somehwere)
  17:16:42 [Norm]
  Stuart: Can we make progress on semantic web architecture at the f2f?
  17:17:01 [Norm]
  TimBL: I don't think we can make progress on it for this f2f.
  17:17:08 [Norm]
  Norm: Alas, nor will I.
  17:17:31 [Norm]
  Stuart: Ok, I'll take it off the agenda for this f2f.
  17:17:57 [Norm]
  Noah: I'm happy with some open time on the agenda so that we can have deeper discussions.
  17:18:29 [Norm]
  Stuart: That would leave substantive topics: self describing web, namespaceDocument-8, and tagSoupIntegration-54.
  17:18:35 [ht_london]
  HST is OK to scribe on 12 March
  17:18:39 [Norm]
  Raman: I'd like to make sure that some deliverables come out of the meeting.
  17:18:48 [Noah]
  Why are our deliverables not Findings, etc.?
  17:18:49 [Norm]
  DanC: Are you offering?
  17:19:02 [Norm]
  Raman: If we can define what it is, I might offer.
  17:19:12 [Norm]
  Raman: A set of clear notes that we publish is something valuable.
  17:19:22 [Norm]
  ...Notes that only appear in the minutes is not as useful.
  17:19:25 [timbl]
  q+
  17:19:26 [Noah]
  We could consider someday publishing a AWWW Version 2, etc., but I see no need for a concrete deliverable from each F2F. For me, the F2F is means toward the other ends.
  17:19:43 [Stuart]
  q?
  17:20:12 [Norm]
  Raman: I'll write something if you'll let me interrupt periodically to get conclusions.
  17:20:30 [ht_london]
  q+ to ask about peer-to-peer
  17:20:47 [Rhys]
  q+
  17:20:51 [Norm]
  TimBL: There's a big overlap between the self describing web and the semantic web. Noah: do you plan to cover GRDDL and other technologies?
  17:20:57 [Norm]
  Noah: The short answer is yes, but the question is how deep to go.
  17:21:08 [Norm]
  ...On the XML side, we have Henry doing xmlFunctions.
  17:21:35 [Norm]
  ...The self describing web feels like an important topic, but I'm not sure I have it crisply defined in my mind.
  17:21:53 [Norm]
  ...So I'm hoping that we can come to some kind of answer to these questions at the meeting. But yes, I was sort of thinking we'd cover all of these things.
  17:22:27 [Norm]
  ...What's nice about RDF and XML is that you can inspect them in deeper ways than you can, for example, a JPEG image.
  17:23:10 [Norm]
  TimBL: So we might have several findings: self-describing XML, self-describing RDF, etc.
  17:23:48 [Norm]
  ...I think it would be nice if we could take the self-describing semantic web stuff and explain how the pieces fit together something like we did for the WebArch document.
  17:24:33 [Norm]
  ...Dan, do you think it would make sense to go for a finding that's specifically about self-describing RDF documents, using GRDDL for example? I don't know if we need something to go around the GRDDL spec?
  17:24:54 [Norm]
  DanC: On the one hand, there's a sort-of draft finding, a GRDDL rationale document.
  17:25:05 [Norm]
  ...But I missed the hop from self describing web to GRDDL
  17:25:25 [Norm]
  TimBL: An important part of the SemWeb architecture is that given a URI you can get some triples out of it.
  17:25:42 [DanC]
  (GRDDL background/rationale, perhaps could be a TAG finding when it grows up:
  )
  17:25:59 [Norm]
  ...What makes it self-describing is that all you need is the URI. Explaining this requires the URI plus some specifications like HTTP and GRDDL.
  17:26:34 [Norm]
  TimBL: GRDDL seems like the self describing web to me, it's sort of the bootstrap.
  17:26:52 [Norm]
  Noah: Yes, but I am trying to keep the exposition of the general principles separate from the exposition about specific technologies.
  17:27:05 [timbl]
  "self describing web" ~ "you get stuff from just a URI" which in sem web is "you get tripels from just a URI" which involves GRDDL
  17:27:35 [Norm]
  ...
  17:27:41 [Norm]
  s/tripels/triples/
  17:28:34 [DanC]
  (what noah said makes sense to me; it seems a small part of the self-describing web story, but if that's what tim had in mind, very well)
  17:28:57 [Norm]
  TimBL: From the agenda point of view, I was wondering whether the self describing web agendum included GRDDL. Maybe we can continue this discussion in that slot.
  17:29:18 [timbl]
  "self describing web" ~ "you can folow your nose to find out what things mean" -- Ontologies as backing to RDF data including themselves
  17:29:28 [Norm]
  Stuart: Any other questions about the face-to-face?
  17:29:31 [ht_london]
  ack ht
  17:29:31 [Zakim]
  ht_london, you wanted to ask about peer-to-peer
  17:29:38 [Norm]
  ack timbl
  17:30:07 [Norm]
  Henry: I've arranged to go to MS Cambridge to give a general sort of URI/webarch talk,
  17:30:20 [Norm]
  ...Mostly I'll be talking to folks interested in the future of peer-to-peer.
  17:30:24 [Norm]
  ...What are we doing about that?
  17:30:50 [DanC]
  (neither "p2p" nor "peer" occurs in
  )
  17:30:57 [Noah]
  Noah thinks schemeProtocols is not on the agenda
  17:30:58 [Norm]
  ...This is information gathering for me. If there are questions that people would like me to ask folks who are thinking about p2p all day, every day, please send me mail.
  17:31:06 [Noah]
  Noah and in fact I think we agreed to back burner
  17:31:25 [Norm]
  Noah: I think we agreed to put schemes-and-protocols on the back burner.
  17:31:53 [Norm]
  s/schemes-and-protocols/schemProtocols-49/
  17:32:02 [Norm]
  s/schemP/schemeP/
  17:32:28 [Norm]
  Henry: I'm not pushing, I just know that it's something we had planned to talk about.
  17:32:47 [Norm]
  Stuart: These can certainly be topics for breaks and lunch.
  17:32:54 [Noah]
  I still think the schemesProtocols-49 question is an interesting one, but got pessimistic that I could in bounded time tell a story that would garner consensus.
  17:33:16 [Norm]
  Topic: whenToUseGet-7
  17:33:19 [Noah]
  q?
  17:33:23 [Rhys]
  q?
  17:33:30 [Norm]
  ->
  17:33:35 [Norm]
  ack Rhys
  17:33:51 [ht_london]
  zakim, mute me
  17:33:51 [Zakim]
  ht_london should now be muted
  17:34:02 [Norm]
  Rhys: I'd be interested in a little discussion of versioning, more from the point of view of where we are and what we need to do
  17:34:21 [Norm]
  Stuart: Yes. I haven't put it on the agenda because we have regrets from David who's been leading that item.
  17:34:57 [Norm]
  Stuart: Many moons ago, the TAG raised a concern about how agents and bits of software that use POST where supposed to know that the operations were safe.
  17:35:00 [Zakim]
  -Vincent
  17:35:27 [Norm]
  ...We had discussions with WSDL WG. They added an attribute to indicate that an operation was safe.
  17:35:36 [Zakim]
  +Vincent
  17:35:37 [Norm]
  ...More recently, there's been work on semantic annotations of WSDL
  17:36:09 [Norm]
  ...The observation has been made in Jacek's question that it would be quite feasible to use the semantic annotations to mark operations safe.
  17:36:54 [DanC]
  q+ to express satisfaction with wsdlx:safe as is. and <p>, for that matter.
  17:37:17 [Norm]
  ...The message that Jacek sent us offers four proposals and asks for our opinion.
  17:37:17 [Norm]
  ...Jonathan Marsh responded, expressing his preferences.
  17:37:17 [Norm]
  DanC: The wsdlx:safe is fine by me.
  17:37:18 [Stuart]
  ack Dan
  17:37:18 [Zakim]
  DanC, you wanted to express satisfaction with wsdlx:safe as is. and <p>, for that matter.
  17:37:31 [Norm]
  ...The <p> tag is safe too, but I'm not going to jump through hoops to prove it.
  17:38:02 [DanC]
  rather: the <p> tag is a semantic annotation too, but I don't think it's best to indirect via new mechanisms for it
  17:38:13 [Stuart]
  q?
  17:38:18 [Norm]
  Stuart: I guess we're being asked if we think there's an architectural reason to do one instead of the other and if we mind if they make that change.
  17:38:46 [Zakim]
  -ht_london
  17:38:58 [Zakim]
  +Ht
  17:39:01 [Stuart]
  17:39:16 [Norm]
  DanC: The WSDL group wants to make this change?
  17:39:18 [Norm]
  Apparently so.
  17:39:21 [DanC]
  "I think the totally clean separation
  17:39:21 [DanC]
  of concerns approach also is workable (indeed, preferable)"
  17:39:48 [Norm]
  Stuart: No the WSDL group does not want the change.
  17:40:08 [Norm]
  Noah: Are there two or three options here?
  17:40:22 [Norm]
  DanC: I see two: keep it or drop it and replace it with a semantic annotations.
  17:40:48 [Stuart]
  from Jonathan's message: 3a. WSDL drops the definition of safety and the dependency upon it
  17:40:48 [Stuart]
  from the HTTP binding, SAWSDL adds it in the normative spec.
  17:40:48 [Stuart]
  The WSDL primer continues to recommend when to use GET or POST,
  17:40:48 [Stuart]
  reinforce the importance of safety, and provide examples and
  17:40:48 [Stuart]
  pointers to the SAWSDL spec.
  17:40:49 [DanC]
  that's 1. the other is: keep it as is.
  17:41:34 [Norm]
  Stuart: I think my own preference is that the functionality does not disappear, but I don't care how.
  17:41:45 [Norm]
  DanC: I thought wsdlx:safe was to some extent deployed. If it isn't then I guess it's a coin toss.
  17:42:07 [Norm]
  Noah: I don't have strong thoughts on this. Jonathan raised some points that I only sort of partially understood.
  17:42:41 [Norm]
  ...As long as the annotations meet the need that the WS community thinks it has, and as long as they're clearly defined, I don't feel strongly.
  17:42:57 [Norm]
  Stuart: So is our position: we want the functionality to be preserved, but we don't think there's an architectural argument.
  17:43:15 [Norm]
  DanC: That's not my position. I think the mechanism should be as convenient as possible.
  17:43:31 [Norm]
  Stuart: Of the two, which do you think is more convenient?
  17:43:49 [Norm]
  DanC: The wsdlx:safe attribute seems more convenient, but it's only more convenient if its actually deployed.
  17:44:03 [Noah]
  I note that the primary utility of the wsdlx:safe annotation is not to
  17:44:03 [Noah]
  default the binding to GET in the absence of other information (there are
  17:44:03 [Noah]
  two other ways to explicitly set the operation to GET which take precedence
  17:44:03 [Noah]
  over wsdlx:safe). The primary utility is to mark a POST operation as safe,
  17:44:03 [Noah]
  as POST may be a preferable method for reasons other than indicating safety.
  17:44:04 [Noah]
  There is no dependency between the HTTP binding and wsdlx:safe in this case.
  17:44:16 [Noah]
  Above is from Jonathan's note.
  17:45:18 [Norm]
  Noah: Apparently wsdlx:safe is not more than a very gentle suggestion to use GET. The primary utility is simply to mark a POST as safe.
  17:45:31 [Norm]
  DanC: Does anyone have direct experience with GUI tools for making WSDL interfaces?
  17:45:48 [Noah]
  So, I'm a bit confused about why this all matters if it's mostly being used with POST in practice anyway.
  17:46:01 [Norm]
  ...What I want is a button that says "make it safe" and if it has less than, say a dozen parameters, then it gets mapped to GET.
  17:46:17 [Norm]
  DanC: So a stock quote based on one four character parameter would get mapped to get.
  17:46:21 [Norm]
  s/to get/to GET/
  17:46:22 [Noah]
  Yes, I suppose I could imagine tools that got some value out of the fact that the post was idempotent, but it seems at best a very small step toward getting the Web to be used as intended.
  17:46:39 [Norm]
  Stuart: So I don't think we have an answer to their question as such.
  17:47:03 [observer_JacekK]
  it matters because there will be more annotations and inventing WSDL extensions for them is not a good way forward, that's why we have SAWSDL
  17:47:10 [Norm]
  ...Jacek is concerned about having an approach that is more architecturally clean. I think there's tension with people in the WG with respect to deployment.
  17:47:27 [Norm]
  DanC: I think that common things should be easy with a small amount of markup.
  17:47:49 [Norm]
  Stuart: I think I can summarize what we discussed, but I don't think we're making a decision for them.
  17:47:51 [observer_JacekK]
  the button GUI functionality can work with either
  17:48:10 [Norm]
  TimBL: Yes. I don't think this is a case where there's a strong architectural principle.
  17:48:18 [Norm]
  ...If it gets moved, who actually has to put it in the spec?
  17:48:22 [DanC]
  " there will be more annotations and inventing WSDL extensions" really? who's building them observer_JacekK ?
  17:48:31 [Norm]
  Stuart: I think the two WGs are in lock step so it won't get dropped.
  17:48:37 [observer_JacekK]
  I think this is about using the right specs where available, and SAWSDL is available now to WSDL
  17:48:55 [Norm]
  DanC: I think there's a huge risk. I don't think the folks building GUI tools are connected to the SAWSDL WG.
  17:49:05 [observer_JacekK]
  DanC, we (DERI) build some annotations
  17:49:24 [observer_JacekK]
  and it's the assumption behind the existence of SAWSDL that there will be annotations, but I know this is weak
  17:49:33 [Norm]
  TimBL: Obviously one of the impacts of putting it in the SAWSDL document is that some tools won't implement it. Is it true that anyone interested in the safe status will be interested in other annotations? It doesn't seem that way to me.
  17:49:51 [Norm]
  Norm: That sounds like an argument against the annotations mechanism.
  17:50:09 [observer_JacekK]
  argument against SAWSDL or against safety with sawsdl?
  17:50:28 [Norm]
  TimBL: Yes. The argument for it is, if you've got an annotation mechanism and this is an annotation, you should use the annotation mechanism. There's not an overriding principle. It's a question of what's going to allow it to be implemented.
  17:50:31 [Stuart]
  the latter
  17:50:59 [Norm]
  Stuart: I think the action is with me to respond to Jacek and Jonathan.
  17:51:25 [Norm]
  ACTION: Stuart to respond to Jacek and Jonathan wrt whenToUseGet-7 and WSDL.
  17:51:27 [observer_JacekK]
  I don't know of anyone who uses safety annotation now; I plan to do so in connection with more annotations
  17:51:35 [Norm]
  Topic: xmlFunctions-34 and the elaborated infoset
  17:51:41 [timbl]
  These are trade-offs. The WG is in th ebest position to make an educated assesment of the best way to go.
  17:51:56 [timbl]
  ____________________________________________________________
  17:52:09 [DanC]
  nak, ht_london
  17:52:17 [timbl]
  Zakim, unmute ht
  17:52:17 [Zakim]
  Ht was not muted, timbl
  17:52:21 [Zakim]
  -Ht
  17:52:43 [Norm]
  s/th ebest/the best/
  17:52:59 [Zakim]
  +Ht
  17:53:52 [Norm]
  Henry: Last time we met, we talked about xmlFunctions at some length. The document that I produced attempts to reconstruct the core of that discussion.
  17:54:33 [Norm]
  Henry has problems with the phone; item postponed until the face-to-face.
  17:54:53 [Norm]
  Topic: CURIEs
  17:55:05 [Norm]
  Stuart: This hasn't surfaced on www-tag.
  17:55:17 [ht_london]
  I gave individual feedback on the editors' draft
  17:55:26 [ht_london]
  which it turns out was not yet public
  17:55:29 [Norm]
  Stuart: We haven't been tracking it with it's own issue. It seemed worth asking if we want to track it or not.
  17:55:51 [ht_london]
  and I have just gotten email from the editor saying he had a new non-public draft. . .
  17:55:56 [Norm]
  Norm: I brought it up because it came up at the XML-CG.
  17:56:04 [Norm]
  Norm: We don't seem to have reached any conclusions.
  17:56:14 [Norm]
  Stuart: It's not clear whether the CURIE draft is a public document.
  17:56:42 [Norm]
  DanC: It doesn't seem to be.
  17:57:07 [Zakim]
  -Ht
  17:57:13 [Zakim]
  +Ht
  17:57:40 [Norm]
  TimBL: They're changing the definition of the href field in HTML's <a>.
  17:58:03 [Norm]
  ...One issue is you can't mess with that without asking for everyone's permission.
  17:58:26 [Norm]
  ...There are also issues with the CURIE design. The namespace prefix and the URI prefix are overloaded.
  17:58:44 [Norm]
  ...Square brackets are used to disambiguate this when it could be an issue, but there's no way to know when it could be an issue.
  17:58:46 [DanC]
  ->
  my comment on curie compatibility
  17:58:50 [Norm]
  ...There are at least those two issues.
  17:59:02 [Norm]
  Stuart: We've had some dialog on this at the AC meeting.
  17:59:15 [Norm]
  ...This isn't actually new. But we haven't really been trying to steer a particular direction with it.
  17:59:45 [ht_london]
  There are a lot of changes since the Edinburgh publication
  17:59:47 [Norm]
  Norm: I think that we should comment on the draft when it becomes public.
  17:59:54 [Noah]
  Public note:
  18:00:00 [DanC]
  q+ to note use of curies in the RDFa draft
  18:00:00 [ht_london]
  s/Edinburgh publication/Edinburgh discussion/
  18:00:52 [Norm]
  Noah: There's something in public.
  18:01:02 [Norm]
  DanC: I sent a comment on my own behalf.
  18:01:03 [ht_london]
  That note is _hugely_ stale
  18:01:13 [ht_london]
  do _not_ waste time commenting on that draft
  18:01:25 [ht_london]
  q+
  18:01:48 [DanC]
  ack danc
  18:01:48 [Zakim]
  DanC, you wanted to note use of curies in the RDFa draft
  18:01:48 [Norm]
  Stuart: Should I ask the chair what the status of the drafts are and encourage them to make them public?
  18:01:55 [Norm]
  ack ht_london
  18:02:03 [Stuart]
  ack ht
  18:02:24 [Norm]
  Henry: I misunderstood a pointer to an editor's draft to be a pointer to a public draft.
  18:02:34 [Norm]
  Henry: Now that we're keeping our eyes on this, I'll wait until there's a public draft.
  18:02:56 [Norm]
  Henry: I think Stuart should do what he said, noting that the TAG doesn't feel comfortable commenting on a private draft.
  18:03:13 [ht_london]
  zakim, mute me
  18:03:13 [Zakim]
  sorry, ht_london, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
  18:03:22 [ht_london]
  zakim, ht is ht_london
  18:03:22 [Zakim]
  +ht_london; got it
  18:03:25 [ht_london]
  zakim, mute me
  18:03:25 [Zakim]
  ht_london should now be muted
  18:03:29 [Norm]
  ACTION: Stuart to contact the Semantic Web Deployment and HTML WG chairs for an update on the status of this document and to encourage them to make it public.
  18:03:40 [Norm]
  Topic: httpRange-14 and findings
  18:04:09 [Norm]
  Rhys: This could easily be a newbie question. The traffic on httpRange-14 last week made me go looking for a finding and I couldn't find it.
  18:04:15 [DanC]
  q+ to note there's no draft finding; just a groups decision
  18:04:17 [Norm]
  ...If not, should we create one?
  18:04:31 [Norm]
  ...If we should, I was going to volunteer to write it.
  18:04:39 [Norm]
  ack DanC
  18:04:39 [Zakim]
  DanC, you wanted to note there's no draft finding; just a groups decision
  18:04:40 [Stuart]
  ack dan
  18:04:53 [Norm]
  DanC: We haven't made a finding. There was a resolution and a group decision and Roy announced it.
  18:05:08 [Norm]
  ...That caused the discussion to decrease and we've treated it like a political third rail since.
  18:05:47 [Norm]
  Norm: I hadn't earlier argued for a finding because I hadn't tried it. I've now tried it and I'd be more inclined to have a finding, but I'm not willing to write it :-)
  18:05:51 [Stuart]
  q+
  18:05:55 [Norm]
  TimBL: Other groups have written about it.
  18:05:58 [Stuart]
  q-
  18:06:05 [Norm]
  ...This is also about the self-describing semantic web.
  18:06:25 [Norm]
  ...It's a key part about a how to get from a URI to triples.
  18:07:00 [Norm]
  Noah: I've always wanted to absorb httpRange-14
  18:07:03 [Norm]
  Much laughter
  18:07:30 [Norm]
  TimBL: I think it would be nice to have TAG document that said, given a URI, this is what Dirk does with it.
  18:07:41 [Norm]
  ...Some URIs get 303, some 302, etc.
  18:07:49 [Norm]
  ...Fills in the gaps between all the specs.
  18:07:56 [Norm]
  Noah: Yep, that makes sense.
  18:08:12 [Norm]
  Stuart: So that's bigger than a finding.
  18:08:34 [Norm]
  TimBL: Well, what we did last time was take findings of various sizes and try to collect them into an architecture document.
  18:08:49 [Norm]
  Noah: Yes, but if the self describing web goes in the direction we think, you're saying there are things we can point to.
  18:09:26 [Norm]
  ...That fits the larger picture about how you follow your nose.
  18:10:09 [Norm]
  Rhys: Clearly these things are related, but I still wonder if we need a separate finding on httpRange-14.
  18:10:25 [Noah]
  I think we already have said something about httpRange 14, I.e in Roy's email describing our decision.
  18:10:43 [Stuart]
  see:
  from SWBPD-WG
  18:11:06 [Norm]
  TimBL: I wonder if we should work on self describing semantic web documents instead.
  18:11:41 [Norm]
  Norm: I don't see why it's wrong to have a finding that addresses that single issue and we should let Rhys do it.
  18:12:14 .
  18:12:29 [Norm]
  TimBL: Well, one reason to give it a different title is to avoid the third rail effect. But also we've come farther now, so it's more valuable to tell the broader story.
  18:13:30 [Norm]
  Stuart: The semantic web best practices not is quite good.
  18:13:50 [Norm]
  ...I'm hearing some note of caution about writing on httpRange-14 and some enthusiasm.
  18:14:19 [Norm]
  TimBL: I think it would be good to have a document we can point to when people ask about it but give it a different title.
  18:14:35 [Norm]
  Stuart: Rhys, are you happy to noodle on that and see what you come up with?
  18:14:38 [Norm]
  Rhys: Definitely.
  18:15:08 [Norm]
  Stuart: So we'll let you work on that in your own time for a while.
  18:15:15 [Norm]
  Rhys: I'm happy to take an action.
  18:15:37 [Norm]
  ACTION: Rhys to consider and draft a finding around the issues raised by httpRange-14.
  18:16:20 [Norm]
  Topic: Any other business
  18:16:33 [Zakim]
  -Raman
  18:16:40 [Norm]
  Noah: I'm just about finished with the slides for the enterprise workshop.
  18:16:43 [Zakim]
  -Noah_Mendelsohn
  18:16:43 [Norm]
  Adjourned.
  18:16:44 [Zakim]
  -ht_london
  18:16:51 [Norm]
  rrsagent, please make logs world-visible
  18:16:58 [Norm]
  rrsagent, please draft minutes
  18:16:58 [RRSAgent]
  I have made the request to generate
  Norm
  18:17:08 [Zakim]
  -Vincent
  18:17:59 [Zakim]
  -Stuart
  18:18:00 [Zakim]
  -Norm
  18:18:00 [Zakim]
  -Rhys
  18:18:02 [Zakim]
  -DanC
  18:18:21 [Zakim]
  -TimBL
  18:18:22 [Zakim]
  TAG_Weekly()12:00PM has ended
  18:18:24 [Zakim]
  Attendees were Stuart, Rhys, Raman, Noah_Mendelsohn, Norm, TimBL, Vincent, DanC, ht_london
  20:11:59 [Zakim]
  Zakim has left #tagmem