text: Difference between revisions of "Chatlog 2012-12-06"
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  15:52:48 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #prov 15:52:48 <RRSAgent> logging to 15:52:50 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world 15:52:50 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #prov 15:52:52 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be PROV 15:52:52 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 8 minutes 15:52:53 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference 15:52:53 <trackbot> Date: 06 December 2012 15:53:17 <Luc> trackbot, start telcon 15:53:19 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world 15:53:21 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be PROV 15:53:21 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 7 minutes 15:53:22 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference 15:53:22 <trackbot> Date: 06 December 2012 15:53:25 <Luc> Zakim, this will be PROV 15:53:25 <Zakim> ok, Luc; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 7 minutes 15:53:43 <Luc> Agenda: 15:53:55 <Luc> Chair: Luc Moreau 15:54:31 <Luc> rrsagent, make logs public 15:55:01 <Luc> Regrets: James Cheney, Paolo Missier, Timothy Lebo 15:56:22 <pgroth> you can add Stephan Zednik 15:56:26 <Luc> Regrets: James Cheney, Paolo Missier, Timothy Lebo, Stephan Zednik, Hook Hua 15:56:36 <pgroth> :-( 15:57:19 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started 15:57:26 <Zakim> +[IPcaller] 15:57:26 <pgroth> zakim, who is on the call? 15:57:27 <Zakim> On the phone I see [IPcaller] 15:57:36 <pgroth> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me 15:57:36 <Zakim> +pgroth; got it 15:57:55 <ivan> zakim, code? 15:57:55 <Zakim> the conference code is 7768 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), ivan 15:58:20 <Zakim> +ivan 15:58:28 <smiles> smiles has joined #prov 15:58:34 <Zakim> + +44.238.059.aaaa 15:58:47 <Luc> zakim, +44.238.059.aaaa is me 15:58:47 <Zakim> +Luc; got it 15:58:58 <Luc> zakim, who is on the call? 15:58:59 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, ivan, Luc 15:59:20 <lebot> lebot has joined #prov 15:59:28 <Zakim> +??P13 15:59:39 <smiles> zakim, ??P13 is me 15:59:39 <Zakim> +smiles; got it 15:59:44 <tlebo> tlebo has joined #prov 16:00:35 <GK1> GK1 has joined #prov 16:00:41 <jun> jun has joined #prov 16:00:43 <Zakim> + +1.315.941.aabb 16:00:49 <tlebo> zakim, I am aabb 16:00:49 <Zakim> +tlebo; got it 16:01:04 <Zakim> +??P1 16:01:13 <jun> zakim, ??p1 is me 16:01:13 <Zakim> +jun; got it 16:01:13 <Luc> i need a scribe please 16:01:26 <pgroth> i can if no one else 16:01:28 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software 16:01:38 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me 16:01:38 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it 16:01:39 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me 16:01:39 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted 16:01:44 <smiles> I can scribe 16:01:47 <tlebo> sorry, I might get pulled away during the call. 16:01:58 <smiles> ok 16:02:05 <smiles> Scribe: smiles 16:02:11 <Dong> Dong has joined #prov 16:02:22 <Zakim> +[IPcaller] 16:02:32 <stain> zakim, +IPcaller is me 16:02:32 <Zakim> sorry, stain, I do not recognize a party named '+IPcaller' 16:02:37 <stain> zakim, IPcaller is me 16:02:37 <Zakim> +stain; got it 16:02:49 <Luc> topic: admin <luc>Summary: Minutes were approved. 16:02:52 <Luc> proposed: to approve the minutes of last week's teleconference 16:03:01 <tlebo> +1 16:03:05 <ivan> +1 16:03:06 <jun> +1 16:03:14 <smiles> +1 16:03:15 <Dong> +1 16:03:20 <stain> 0 not read (the link?) 16:03:28 <Zakim> +??P30 16:03:35 <Luc> resolved: the minutes of last week's teleconference 16:03:39 <Zakim> +??P26 16:03:39 <stain> 16:03:59 <GK> GK has joined #prov 16:04:14 <GK> zakim, ??p26 is me 16:04:14 <Zakim> +GK; got it 16:04:16 <pgroth> no 16:04:17 <pgroth> no 16:04:19 <smiles> Luc: Actions open, Tim's for later, Luc's not done, Stefan's will be covered later 16:04:20 <Zakim> -stain 16:04:37 <Luc> topic: congratulations <luc>Summary: Congratulations to the editors of the FPWDs (overview, links, dc, xml). Their transition request was approved this week. Publication scheduled for Dec 11th. 16:04:44 <Luc> 16:04:58 <pgroth> s/topoic/topic 16:05:20 <smiles> Luc: Transition request approved for four new notes: overview, links, dc mapping, and xml 16:05:33 <smiles> ... congratulations to editors 16:06:08 <Zakim> +[IPcaller] 16:06:14 <smiles> ivan: Checked with Dennis, who will check the release documents at the weekend, no problem with publication 16:06:17 <christine> christine has joined #prov 16:06:39 <Zakim> + +44.789.470.aacc 16:06:43 <Luc> q? 16:06:51 <pgroth> q+ 16:06:58 <smiles> Luc: May not be available at all times on Monday, Tuesday, to deal with problems 16:07:21 <TomDN> TomDN has joined #prov 16:07:22 <smiles> ivan: Publication will usually happen Tuesday morning Boston time 16:07:35 <pgroth> do we need a blog post? 16:07:36 <smiles> ... need blurb for W3C homepage 16:07:43 <Zakim> + +329331aadd 16:07:52 <pgroth> q+ 16:07:53 <TomDN> Zakim, +329 is me 16:07:54 <Zakim> +TomDN; got it 16:07:59 <smiles> ... once publication is out, blog post would be good 16:08:03 <Luc> q? 16:08:11 <smiles> pgroth: I can prepare a blog post, ready for Tuesday 16:08:12 <TomDN> (sorry I'm late, other meeting ran late) 16:08:20 <Luc> ack pg 16:08:47 <smiles> ivan: Whatever goes to the W3C homepage, I repeat it on the activity blog 16:09:04 <smiles> ... so better if one of chairs write this text 16:09:21 <pgroth> yes 16:09:24 <smiles> ... could be separate blog post with more details, which can also go to activity blog 16:10:06 <smiles> pgroth: If something comes up regarding publication, we can directly edit the HTML? 16:10:11 <smiles> ivan: yes 16:10:16 <Luc> q? 16:10:28 <Luc> topic: Getting Things Ready for Implementation <luc>Summary: The questionnaires need to be mostly ready for the CR transition call on Friday, and final release on Tuesday. Luc will provide urls to concepts. Paul will replicate questionnaires for the various kinds of implementations. Dong has curated a test suite of 240+ test cases (each of them formatted in rdf, prov-n, xml). The test cases are ready for review by the WG. Jun and Paul will do it as they implement test cases. Paolo and James are invited to look at them (in their absence, action was raised). Issues regarding the submission of the constraints implementation report were discussed, and in particular it is investigated whether a form can support this. 16:10:33 <khalidBelhajjame> khalidBelhajjame has joined #prov 16:10:49 <smiles> Luc: There are outstanding questions regarding questionnaire 16:10:59 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a] 16:11:06 <khalidBelhajjame> zakim, [IPcaller.a] is me 16:11:06 <Zakim> +khalidBelhajjame; got it 16:11:15 <smiles> pgroth: Questionnaire has not changed much since last week, couple of things Stefan needs to do 16:11:37 <pgroth> 16:11:48 <smiles> ... he has copied three questionnaires into one and added question about PROV constraints 16:12:19 <smiles> ... he still needs to create the other questionnaires 16:12:38 <smiles> ... for different kinds of products: implementation, vocabulary 16:12:40 <Luc> q? 16:13:12 <smiles> Luc: questionnaire ready for management telecon tomorrow? 16:13:25 <smiles> ... does not have all links to concepts in CR documents 16:13:50 <TomDN> Zakim, mute me 16:13:50 <Zakim> TomDN should now be muted 16:14:01 <smiles> pgroth: I can update this questionnaire with links 16:14:20 <smiles> Luc: currently links point to sections, not definitions 16:14:33 <tlebo> q? 16:15:22 <Luc> q? 16:15:44 <smiles> Luc: Any questions on questionnaires? 16:16:07 <Dong> 16:16:13 <SamCoppens> SamCoppens has joined #prov 16:16:15 <smiles> Dong: (regarding test cases) Above are the current documents 16:16:41 <smiles> ... Issues raised by internal reviewers addressed, almost ready to go 16:16:49 <SamCoppens> zakim, SamCoppens is with TomDN 16:16:49 <Zakim> +SamCoppens; got it 16:17:08 <smiles> ... except that test cases missing for some constraints 16:18:05 <smiles> Luc: The test cases do not need to be frozen by 11th, need to be good but as others implement we may come up with other examples 16:18:18 <Luc> q? 16:18:57 <smiles> Dong: Good. In current version of test case document, we ask people to email results back to us, maybe be better to use questionnaire 16:19:12 <pgroth> that's a good idea… 16:19:26 <smiles> ... I will see if the questionnaire allows us to have text fields they can copy these into instead 16:20:03 <satya> satya has joined #prov 16:20:07 <smiles> pgroth: Could be possible, but would have to go through test case numbers in WBS 16:20:29 <Zakim> +Satya_Sahoo 16:20:33 <Luc> if you look at the current questionnaire, you have free text boxes 16:20:44 <smiles> Dong: Do not to intend to list all test cases as options, but just provide big text fields 16:21:43 <Luc> q? 16:22:06 <smiles> Dong: need volunteer reviewers for test case document 16:22:45 <smiles> Luc: There are a couple of lines with no test cases listed, but for which we do have test cases 16:22:53 <smiles> Dong: Yes, some to add to test suite 16:23:27 <pgroth> +10 16:23:32 <smiles> Luc: Thanks to Dong for all the work: 240 different tests, for each of 3 serialisations 16:23:44 <Luc> q? 16:24:02 <smiles> ... Now need reviewers for test cases 16:24:26 <pgroth> q+ 16:24:30 <Luc> q? 16:24:52 <smiles> pgroth: Can I do it while I implement? 16:25:40 <smiles> Luc: That's fine, though ideally you should not come back on 31 Jan with problem 16:26:15 <smiles> ... will also ask James C to review 16:26:24 <Luc> action jcheney to review the test cases 16:26:24 <trackbot> Created ACTION-154 - Review the test cases [on James Cheney - due 2012-12-13]. 16:26:32 <Luc> q? 16:26:43 <jun> I am in a similar position as Paul 16:26:57 <jun> I will review them while implementing them 16:26:59 <Luc> ack pg 16:27:02 <pgroth> yes 16:27:18 <Luc> action paolo to review the test cases 16:27:18 <trackbot> Created ACTION-155 - Review the test cases [on Paolo Missier - due 2012-12-13]. 16:27:25 <Luc> q? 16:27:39 <tlebo> interested, but not willing to commit :-) 16:27:54 <Luc> q? 16:28:05 <smiles> Luc: Anything else regarding implementation? 16:28:11 <smiles> ivan: We are ready for tomorrow 16:28:59 <smiles> ivan: They will review the call sent to the chairs and links on that page 16:29:02 <Luc> topic: prov-xml <luc>Summary: Stian made a proposal, using substitution groups, to manage the prov namespace, with multiple schema files. The prov-xml editors are invited to review the proposal and try to converge to a solution (action raised against Stephan). 16:29:07 <stain> q+ 16:29:16 <pgroth> stain 16:29:36 <stain> 16:29:41 <smiles> stain: Have investigated namespace issue 16:30:05 <smiles> ... have looked at how to deal with extensions, include or redefine namespaces 16:30:28 <smiles> ... propose use of substitution groups to allow for extensions 16:31:04 <smiles> ... namespace overlap issues become clean, as can reuse same namespace and use xsd:includes 16:32:10 <Luc> q? 16:32:15 <smiles> ... need to say something about how others do extensions, manage adding complex type elements with attributes, etc. 16:32:15 <Luc> ack stain 16:32:59 <smiles> Luc: do not have editors on call, so cannot make decisions, but can pass Stian's wiki page to initiate debate 16:33:00 <Luc> q? 16:33:26 <pgroth> q+ 16:33:33 <Luc> action zednik to review and come back with a response 16:33:33 <trackbot> Created ACTION-156 - Review and come back with a response [on Stephan Zednik - due 2012-12-13]. 16:33:35 <smiles> Luc: Can discuss at next telecon 16:33:37 <Luc> q? 16:33:56 <smiles> pgroth: Would be good to get this settled so we can get on with improving the namespace page 16:34:11 <Luc> ack pg 16:34:12 <stain> q+ 16:34:37 <smiles> stain: Last week Tim raised some concerns about same namespaces in OWL and XML 16:34:52 <Luc> ack st 16:35:09 <Luc> q? 16:35:17 <smiles> tlebo: Haven't yet considered, will do for next week 16:35:46 <smiles> Luc: Thanks Stian for work, we will now digest 16:35:50 <stain> .. specially if we need to leave hooks in the core.xsd 16:36:12 <smiles> ... Request that current set of issues on XML should be addressed by next release: early February 16:36:16 <ivan> q+ 16:36:17 <Luc> q? 16:36:50 <stain> and are there any overlaps with elements and predicates? 16:36:52 <Luc> ack iv 16:36:53 <smiles> ivan: Just checked: OWL 2 has an XML serialisation and uses same namespace as the RDF ontology 16:37:08 <Luc> q? 16:37:13 <tlebo> Thanks, @ivan 16:37:19 <Luc> topic:prov-aq <luc>Summary: Extensive editorial changes have taken place during the last week. There are a few issues that need discussion/decision by the group. Graham will initiate discussion by email. 16:38:02 <smiles> GK: <alien sounds> 16:38:14 <GK> Ity seedms my outgoping audiop is poor 16:38:25 <GK> I'm on an ADSL line, so maybe bandwidth starved 16:38:35 <Luc> ... alien text too ;-) 16:38:47 <pgroth> I can do it 16:38:54 <pgroth> and correct me if I'm wrong 16:38:57 <GK> I have some notes I can paste in:\ 16:39:05 <GK> PROV-AQ - draft at: 16:39:05 <GK> 16:39:05 <GK> Has been updated: 16:39:05 <GK> Change 'provenance information' to 'provenance description' (ISSUE 601); extensive editorial changes should be reviewed 16:39:05 <GK> Add note about service description and LDP consideration thereof 16:39:05 <GK> Add non-commital paragraph about accessing provenance bundles 16:39:05 <GK> Update forward provenance (pingback) in response to comments; fix text around VoID example 16:39:06 <GK> Added specification for pingback link header (ISSUE 600) 16:39:06 <GK> Expanded discussion of provenance service discovery to include prov:hasProvenanceService 16:39:06 <GK> Remove speculative non-specification text to be covered in FAQ (ISSUES 426, 598) 16:39:07 <GK> Added section with table of URIs and what they dereference to (ISSUE 424) 16:39:07 <GK> Make treatment of direct retrieval and service for provenance access more equally visible (ISSUE 422) 16:39:07 <GK> Point out that provenance services can accept paraneters other than just 'target' (ISSUE 420) 16:39:08 <GK> Added definitions for accessung and locating (ISSUE 417) 16:39:08 <GK> Added section on Link: headers and content negotiation (ISSUE 416) 16:39:08 <GK> Added icon to distibguish external links (ISSUE 400) 16:39:09 <GK> Updsate and cross-link table of prov: URIs defined 16:39:09 <GK> Changed link relations to URIs; removed IANA considerations section 16:39:09 <GK> Hyperlink concept definitions to themselves (per request from Tim 2012-06-05) 16:39:09 <GK> Update security considerations with note about use of provenance as part of audit/enforcement mechanism 16:39:09 <GK> Update list of PROV documents, copied from PROV-DM 16:39:09 <GK> Cut back on verbiage in sect 3,4 rbitrary data 16:39:10 <GK> Revised section 3 descriptions in terms of prodcuers and consumers 16:39:10 <GK> Updated security considerations to mention audit 16:39:10 <GK> Add TODO for producer/consumer roles, add note about multiple links, add reference to RFC3986 for %-escaping 16:39:11 <GK> Update security considerations, note about non-RDF service desription, PROV-O link, acknowledgements 16:39:17 <GK> The aboce is from the HG log 16:39:22 <MacTed> Zakim, who's noisy? 16:39:34 <Zakim> MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: pgroth (47%), ivan (61%), Luc (9%), GK (97%) 16:39:36 <MacTed> Zakim, mute gk 16:39:36 <Zakim> GK should now be muted 16:39:50 <stain> intergalactic issue 16:39:54 <GK> So where we are: 16:39:55 <GK> - Most issues have been addressed, pending review 16:39:56 <smiles> pgroth: Gone through all the issues, and GK has been addressing them (see changes above) 16:39:56 <GK> - 16:39:56 <GK> - Have review comments from Jun to fold in 16:39:56 <GK> - update of OWL document [fragment] is still to do. 16:39:56 <GK> - still need to review for use of RFC2119 language (even though non-REC, is still a spec) 16:39:56 <GK> 16:40:14 <smiles> pgroth: Still more to do, but should be done by next week (GK?) 16:40:18 <GK> Most;y, buy some outstandinmg issues 16:40:28 <GK> Recent issues: 16:40:28 <GK> - SPARQL endpoint discovery 16:40:28 <GK> - raised issue with LDP about service description format (). I p[ropose to stiock for now with RDF, as that avoids defining yet another data format, and maybe update later to follow LDP recommendations 16:40:28 <GK> -- issue of RDF having multiple MIME types (cf. email from Eric Wilde aka @dret) 16:40:44 <smiles> pgroth: After that, need to read over 16:41:14 <smiles> Luc: Group will not see doc before Christmas? 16:41:23 <GK> I think there are issues that can be revioewed; e.g. forward provenance 16:41:30 <smiles> pgroth: Yes, there seems no point in doing so, as will not be able to give proper attention 16:41:51 <GK> There';s some discussion about how to handle SPARQL endpoint discovery 16:41:52 <pgroth> yeah, first - second week of january 16:41:59 <smiles> Luc: Early Jan, should have internal review of document 16:42:06 <Luc> q? 16:42:12 <GK> q+ to say there are a couple of specific issues to discuss 16:42:21 <pgroth> will this work... 16:42:26 <Luc> ack gk 16:42:27 <Zakim> GK, you wanted to say there are a couple of specific issues to discuss 16:42:35 <pgroth> no 16:42:43 <GK> I' 16:42:45 <stain> it was good as you said "hang on" 16:42:54 <stain> perhaps GK really IS in a different galaxy..! 16:42:56 <GK> 1. SP{ARQL endpoint discovery - I propose a new link relation 16:43:07 <GK> 2. service descrtiption format 16:43:20 <GK> 3. pingback; aka "forward provenance" 16:43:32 <GK> These are issuyes where there are substantial changes/new material 16:43:36 <pgroth> sounds good 16:43:45 <smiles> Luc: Use mailing list to point out issues to discuss (as GK lists above) 16:43:49 <pgroth> perfect 16:43:54 <GK> Acxk. Siounds good. 16:44:09 <GK> Ack. 16:44:12 <Luc> q? 16:44:18 <Luc> topic: prov-sem <luc>Summary: James had produced an update on progress ahead of the meeting. Ivan will approach the math-ml contact to see if there are any tools that may help in converting the document to note format. Tom offered to check whether rules had been properly encoded. 16:44:19 <pgroth> thanks graham 16:44:21 <pgroth> ! 16:44:27 <Luc> 16:44:52 <Luc> 16:45:02 <smiles> Luc: Had apologies from James, but sent brief update: has been converting the rules into LaTeX/HTML 16:45:55 <Luc> q? 16:45:57 <smiles> ... He asks for (1) people to go through document and check for typos in converting rules, (2) people to help convert into W3C Note style 16:46:51 <smiles> ivan: Could contact staff contact in MathML group, as they may have experience in publishing formal notation/maths 16:47:05 <smiles> ... Can forward James' mail 16:47:41 <Luc> q? 16:48:00 <smiles> Luc: Anyone else willing to go through the document? Tom? 16:48:09 <TomDN> yes 16:48:11 <Luc> tom? 16:48:21 <pgroth> q+ 16:48:39 <GK> I'll look if I have time 16:48:48 <smiles> pgroth: Is it at a state where we would want to show it to others? 16:48:52 <smiles> Luc: No I don't think so 16:48:56 <pgroth> ack pgroth 16:49:10 <Luc> q? 16:49:13 <TomDN> I can take a look at it as reviewer, but cannot actively help with writing 16:49:19 <Luc> topic: prov-dictionary <luc>Summary: Sam and Tom are aiming to produce a version of prov-dictionary by the next telco, ready for an internal review. The aim is to synchronize a FPWD release with proposed recommendations. 16:49:19 <smiles> Luc: Not formal review yet, see James' mail for what to check 16:49:24 <TomDN> Zakim, unmute me 16:49:24 <Zakim> TomDN should no longer be muted 16:49:52 <pgroth> is that too late? 16:49:54 <smiles> TomDN: Schedule will be as said last week, next version out by next Thursday for internal review 16:50:20 <Luc> q? 16:50:23 <smiles> Luc: Timing fine for FPWD with proposed recommendations 16:50:40 <Luc> q? 16:50:44 <TomDN> Zakim, mute me 16:50:44 <Zakim> TomDN should now be muted 16:50:52 <smiles> Luc: AOB? 16:51:00 <tlebo> thanks, bye! 16:51:02 <smiles> thanks 16:51:03 <TomDN> bye 16:51:04 <khalidBelhajjame> bye 16:51:04 <pgroth> sure 16:51:10 <Zakim> -TomDN 16:51:10 <SamCoppens> SamCoppens has left #prov 16:51:11 <Zakim> -MacTed 16:51:12 <Zakim> -khalidBelhajjame 16:51:12 <Dong> bye 16:51:14 <Zakim> -tlebo 16:51:15 <Zakim> -[IPcaller] 16:51:15 <Zakim> -Satya_Sahoo 16:51:18 <GK> Yay! +10 mins 16:51:18 <jun> bye 16:51:19 <Zakim> -pgroth 16:51:20 <GK> Bye 16:51:22 <Zakim> -??P30 16:51:24 <Zakim> -smiles 16:51:25 <Zakim> -jun 16:51:26 <Zakim> -Luc 16:51:30 <Zakim> - +44.789.470.aacc 16:51:33 <Luc> rrsagent, set log public 16:51:40 <Zakim> -GK 16:51:42 <Luc> trackbot, end telcon 16:51:42 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees 16:51:42 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been pgroth, ivan, Luc, smiles, +1.315.941.aabb, tlebo, jun, MacTed, stain, GK, [IPcaller], +44.789.470.aacc, +329331aadd, TomDN, 16:51:43 <Luc> rrsagent, draft minutes 16:51:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate Luc 16:51:45 <Zakim> ... khalidBelhajjame, SamCoppens, Satya_Sahoo 16:51:48 <ivan> zakim, drop me 16:51:48 <Zakim> ivan is being disconnected 16:51:49 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has ended 16:51:49 <Zakim> Attendees were pgroth, ivan, Luc, smiles, +1.315.941.aabb, tlebo, jun, MacTed, stain, GK, [IPcaller], +44.789.470.aacc, +329331aadd, TomDN, khalidBelhajjame, SamCoppens, 16:51:49 <Zakim> ... Satya_Sahoo 16:51:50 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes 16:51:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate trackbot 16:51:51 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye 16:51:51 <RRSAgent> I see no action items # SPECIAL MARKER FOR CHATSYNC. DO NOT EDIT THIS LINE OR BELOW. SRCLINESUSED=00000372