#ubuntu-design 2011-11-04 <mainerror> Hello. <mainerror> I'm odamiean by the way. <doctormo-other> hey mainerror <doctormo-other> I'm DoctorMO btw :-D <mainerror> hehe :D <czajkowski> Aloha :D <czajkowski> so nicer to have this channel #ubuntu-design 2011-11-05 <doctormo-other> Hey czajkowski, welcome! #ubuntu-design 2011-11-07 <jussi> cjohnston: you need to add a few trusted people as ops - at least 3 or so more. <jussi> other than that, looks good. * cjohnston throws something at jussi <jussi> awww * jussi hopes that something is yummy <cjohnston> lol <cjohnston> a brick? <bwinton> A chocolate brick? <cjohnston> doubtful <jussi> hehe #ubuntu-design 2011-11-09 <doctormo-other> hello wender <wendar> hi <wendar> otp <doctormo-other> OTP? <wendar> off the phone now <wendar> hi! <wendar> otp = my shorthand for "hi, I see you, sorry I can't type much at the moment, I'm on the phone" <wendar> doctormo-other: you have time to chat about community design teams? <doctormo-other> wendar: Yes, what are your thoughts? <doctormo-other> wendar: And, alternatively, would you like to talk on the phone? <wendar> doctormo-other: phone would be great, it'd save on latency <doctormo-other> You're in the UK right? <wendar> doctormo-other: I'm in the US, at the moment <wendar> you're in boston area? <doctormo-other> I am <wendar> I can call you <doctormo-other> in 10 mins? 507-653-2812 <wendar> sounds good, thanks <wendar> (will call then) <doctormo-other> thanks wendar <Padster> uh, hi #ubuntu-design 2011-11-10 <thorwil> hi doctormo-other #ubuntu-design 2011-11-11 <doctormo-other> wendar: Hey there <doctormo-other> I had two ideas today about ubuntu-design. <doctormo-other> I think we might want to do a twitter account, so people interested can follow. And we should set up a meeting date for people to come and talk about what we're going to do. <mpt> design.ubuntu.com redirects to design.canonical.com? <mpt> hmmmmmmmmm <doctormo-other> mpt: Yes, something to think about. <mpt> Fixing that would be difficult but would have good effects <mhall119> fixing a redirect is easy <mhall119> making the different meaningful is what will be hard <mpt> yes <doctormo-other> What do we need the page to say? <doctormo-other> A twitter feed, an image bin history and maybe a blog? <mhall119> doctormo-other: depends on what we want the site to *do* <doctormo-other> Communicate? <doctormo-other> As tools go we have zero, I think an image bin a first step. <doctormo-other> thoughts? <mhall119> doctormo-other: I'd like to see something more bi-directional <doctormo-other> mhall119: I'd like a magical powers to make code too ;-) what kind of thing? <mhall119> the designers in the community don't have much that let's them build and contribute back to what is coming out of canonical <mhall119> doctormo-other: what would a "launchpad for designers" look like, in your mind? <mhall119> something to think about * mhall119 is off to bed <doctormo-other> mhall119: lol, sleep on it. <mhall119> hey, I'm a developer, I already have launchpad <doctormo-other> What we need to think about is code creation resources, if we try and make something, we'll move very slowely. <mhall119> code creation? you talking app design? <mhall119> hmmmm, how about glade files, instead of image mockups? something like that? <mhall119> but it'll need to be more than just desktop apps, even more than just webapps, how about just straight artwork? <mhall119> gah, now I won't be able to sleep <mhall119> anyway, think about what kind of artwork-development project management/workflow management would help get community and canonical designers working together <mhall119> I think file and tool compatibility will be a big hurdle we'll be faced with <doctormo-other> mhall119: The stratedgy is to get the ubuntu design team off the ground without Canonical's team or coherence with that team. <mhall119> who's goal is that? <doctormo-other> But, perhaps with several of the people who just coincidentally are members of the Canonical team <mhall119> my goal was to get Canonical's design team involved with the community <doctormo-other> mhall119: Yes, that's the end goal. <mhall119> ok, we can brainstorm more tomorrow <mhall119> g'night all <doctormo-other> night <mpt> One of Canonical's designers actually came up with a design for a designer equivalent to Launchpad <mpt> a couple of years ago <wendar> mpt: I was looking for that yesterday to hand to doctormo <wendar> mpt: do you have the spec? <mpt> It's not public, but I did my own variation of it <wendar> mpt: I can't find it in my google docs anymore <wendar> mpt: ah cool * mpt realizes who wendar is :-) <wendar> mpt: I know we may have to do some steps to get the old one public, but it's not an active project <mpt> right <wendar> mpt: and would be a shame to waste all the work he put into it <wendar> doctormo-other: I like the twitter idea <mpt> looking now * doctormo-other is interested <wendar> mpt: I noticed the design.ubuntu.com redirect too, should be easy to swap once we have a page to point it to <mpt> wendar, I can't find it either. All I found is a research interview he did with mvo beforehand. <mpt> wendar, doctormo-other: Here's my specification editor sketches: http://imgur.com/a/8xTN5 <doctormo-other> mpt: Are those sketches for a desktop app? <mpt> doctormo-other, it could be desktop or Web. There's nothing specific to either, really. <doctormo-other> mpt: I don't understand the design yet, maybe you can walk me through it sometime. <mpt> sure <doctormo-other> What is the job of the tool of the design team? <mpt> That particular tool is for writing, tracking changes in, commenting on, and organizing design specifications <mpt> so that they're easier to edit, organize, and find fragments of, than wiki pages <mpt> and so that they're more expressive than bug reports or blueprints <mpt> There's a loud conversation going on here, and now I realize that I'm not sure if that's what you meant by "the tool of the design team" :-) <doctormo-other> mpt: No that makes sense. <doctormo-other> We have tools to help designers collaborate, and then tools we need as a community. <daker> hello <czajkowski> aloha folks <doctormo-other> Hey thorwil <thorwil> hi doctormo-other. so what's the state of affairs? <doctormo-other> thorwil: We want a community design team, at least as far as a place for designers to come to. <doctormo-other> The discussion at UDS showed that the community team and the internal design team have a motivation to see this happen. <doctormo-other> There are two things to do: find tools to do collaborative design and, perform a redesign of an application in the cycle. <thorwil> a clear goal and deadline should help <thorwil> i worry that the motivation of the canonical design team is not worth much, given what has happened, or rather didn't happen, so far <thorwil> my impression that every team member is already stretched thin due to a workload of which the community has all in all no idea <thorwil> doctormo-other: are you aware of http://mediagoblin.org/ ? <doctormo-other> I am. <thorwil> it doesn't have the versioning support i would wish for, but might be ... at least something at hand <pleia2> anyone know if there SVGs available of the new pangolin logo? <doctormo-other> thorwil: Another suggestion was sparkleshare or ubuntu-one <doctormo-other> pleia2: What does the pangolin logo look like now? <pleia2> doctormo-other: like this: http://www.flickr.com/photos/pleia2/6326022129 <thorwil> doctormo-other: those are reasonable options, with the risk to lead to a gnome design team like situation, where most happens on irc. so you either are there, or you are square <doctormo-other> wendar: We have a request which needs the attention of the Canonical design team. <doctormo-other> thorwil: Very true. <mhall119> doctormo-other: is there anything like etherpad for sketching? <doctormo-other> mhall119: Real time or bazaar time? <mhall119> real time <mhall119> I know bzr like is hard to do with images <doctormo-other> mhall119: Depends, you can use sparkleshare for that. <mhall119> doctormo-other: I was thinking something like a shared whiteboard you can draw on <mhall119> nothing for making nice graphics, just collaborating on design brainstorming <wendar> doctormo-other: hi, what's the request? <wendar> doctormo-other: I'm working on setting up a meeting time for interested community designers with them next week, so might just fit in with that <doctormo-other> wendar: pleia2 asks for the svg for the the new pangolin logo. shown here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/pleia2/6326022129 <doctormo-other> wendar: One of the concerns for thorwil was that Canonical staff will be far too busy and too stressed with work to be able to contribute to the community. <doctormo-other> Meeting sounds great. <wendar> doctormo-other: makes sense, I'm not sure who is the right person to get that from, but we'll find out together <wendar> doctormo-other: he's quite right to be concerned, they are stretched pretty thin. It certainly wouldn't work to expect them to do all the design work, but that's not really what this is about. <wendar> doctormo-other: What we want to do is unblock the community contribtions, so the available time of the Canonical staff designers isn't what everyone is waiting on. <wendar> doctormo-other: if MOTU were waiting on Canonical's Foundations team to do any work, it'd all fall apart. <doctormo-other> wendar: Yes, but the community will need critical mass to form a core to build form. <wendar> doctormo-other: But, the Canonical designers have volunteered their time to help the community team get started. <doctormo-other> The foundations team started that core by doing all their work in the community. <wendar> doctormo-other: I suspect we're going to need a different model here, where the community designers lead by example. <doctormo-other> We're going to be stuck if we're all waiting on everyone else ;-) <doctormo-other> Part of the ideal here is that Canonical designers when volunteering consider themselves as community designers. <doctormo-other> Not as special forces ;-) <wendar> Get a community design team going, doing productive, collaborative work, and lead the Canonical designers in by showing them how well it works. <wendar> There's only a tiny sliver of difference between the way they work now, and the way they could work with all of you. <wendar> But, right now their primary exposure to public collaboration is the ayatana list. <wendar> Not the best example of harmonious collaboation. <doctormo-other> Not at all :-D * mpt wonders what he just missed <doctormo-other> Ayatana: Imbalanced expectations with imbalanced skill requirements. <wendar> yeah, and over time building up frustrations because of no clear way to participate <wendar> So we reset, and lead the way <wendar> We know how to collaborate, it's a matter of carrying those good principles into a new space <doctormo-other> Hello jono <jono> hey <cjohnston> jono: ! <jono> :-) <cjohnston> jono did you get the email i sent you about having created this room? <jono> no? <cjohnston> You asked me to send you an email about this room last week so you could help promote the design team joining.. I'm pretty sure I sent it to you.. but it was during UDS <cjohnston> either way.. its created <doctormo-other> mhall119 or cjohnston are you any good at Javascript? <cjohnston> no.. we need a js person :-( <doctormo-other> I did a big search for whiteboards, and there just aren't any good ones. The ones that were good have been bought up by blackboard and salesforce and killed off. <doctormo-other> So I had a look at etherpad, I think etherpad + google's svg-edit would give everything required and more. <cjohnston> required for what <doctormo-other> cjohnston: Collaborative editing/whiteboarding for design, mhall119 was asking about it. <cjohnston> hmm.. ok <doctormo-other> cjohnston: No problem is there? <cjohnston> np <cjohnston> no <cjohnston> just wasnt familiar with the conversation <doctormo-other> cjohnston: Are you having a relaxing Friday? *hug* <cjohnston> i wish.. im at work <mhall119> doctormo-other: not really on the javascript <AlanBell> cjohnston: was there a specific session at UDS that caused this room to be created? or some background on it? <cjohnston> AlanBell: brand guidelines <cjohnston> i mentioned that we have a desire to have discussion with the design team, but there isnt a 'place' to do that <AlanBell> http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-p/meeting/19528/design-online-brand-guidelines/ that one <AlanBell> perfect, thanks <cjohnston> ya.. i believe so <AlanBell> I think this is a good idea, I never really understood the ayatana concept and why it was kind of outside of Ubuntu <pleia2> AlanBell: that's what we all said <AlanBell> and more engagement with the design team is great, particularly from the accessibility perspective, getting it designed in rather than designed out saves a lot of effort <doctormo-other> AlanBell: The concept was broad and without buy-in from all parties. <wendar> AlanBell: also http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-p/meeting/19502/community-p-ux-participation/ <wendar> AlanBell: that's not where the channel was created, but it came up as a good meeting point for that blueprint also <AlanBell> thanks #ubuntu-design 2011-11-12 <jono> cjohnston, sorry I didnt see an email re. this chan <cjohnston> I just resent it to jono at u . c <jono> thanks cjohnston <jono> I have a nightmare inbox, will get to it soon <cjohnston> lol <jono> cjohnston, will post to the design team about this now <cjohnston> thats all it was about :-) <cjohnston> thanks jono <jono> thanks, cjohnston! <jono> mail sent <cjohnston> thanks <jono> I also changed the topic for their internal channel ;-) <jono> hey sladen! <cjohnston> cool <cjohnston> its sladen ! <cjohnston> that was quick <jono> sladen is everywhere <cjohnston> true <jono> particularly Best Buy ;-) <sladen> the less said the better <sladen> what exciting things have I missed so far/ <cjohnston> we were all waiting for you sladen <jono> sladen, :-) <wendar> sladen: welcome * wendar realizes that she didn't pass the channel name on to the Canonical designers, and wonders if anyone else did before 1 hour ago <sladen> wendar: prompting is always useful <AlanBell> sladen \o/ <doctormo-other> Hey AlanBell <doctormo-other> And peterm-ubuntu <doctormo-other> Know any javascript gurus? <AlanBell> I dabble <AlanBell> going to have to dabble a bit more to get etherpad lite going for UDS-Q <peterm-ubuntu> doctormo-other, what are you looking for? <doctormo-other> peterm-ubuntu: People with a bit of time and some javascript hacking experence <doctormo-other> AlanBell: Coincidentally with etherpad. What's the lite version? <AlanBell> a rewrite in node.js <doctormo-other> AlanBell: I'm rewriting ace2 and replacing the editor with svg-editor, but it's complex and I could do with some help. <AlanBell> what is ace2? <doctormo-other> AlanBell: The editor used in etherpad, <doctormo-other> It's a javascript construction which allows one to edit; it creates multiple iframe constructs and manages the calls between the editor and the sync javascript. <AlanBell> oh ok <AlanBell> so you want real time co-editing of arbitary svg objects <doctormo-other> AlanBell: Well that'd be nice. We only really need wire frames and maybe stroke color to be controlled by the highlight color. <doctormo-other> In terms of the sync, svg is only text to be shoveled in. <AlanBell> well, it is continuously valid xml to shovel in <doctormo-other> Ah even better :-D <doctormo-other> I'm still going through the code to get an idea where the graft needs to take place. <doctormo-other> This is the svg editor: http://svg-edit.googlecode.com/svn/branches/2.5.1/editor/svg-editor.html <sladen> doctormo-other: wow <AlanBell> doctormo-other: this is a really really interesting area <AlanBell> I have been pondering in the past how to do realtime co-editing of ODF documents between different office suites <AlanBell> which is basically passing fragments of XML about <AlanBell> I was thinking some kind of protocol that passed an internally valid (tags closed) chunck of XML and an xpath statement of where to insert it, or an xpath location for a node to delete <czajkowski> c <mhall119> AlanBell: you just need an XML diff tool, really <mhall119> which isn't as easy as it sounds <mhall119> if you had that, then you could plug it into bzr or whatever <AlanBell> it needs to not diff the whole thing all the time <AlanBell> and bzr isn't realtime <mhall119> true <mhall119> I suppose it could be though... <mhall119> doctormo-other: if you can make this work, it's going to get massive use I bet <mhall119> doctormo-other: are you looking at the java-based etherpad, or node.js based lite version? <wendar> doctormo-other: oh, I looked at GtkAtlantic, you're right the user experience did make me want to cry :( <wendar> doctormo-other: Not sure about about the client-server aspects, it might make the user journey more complex to sketch out <wendar> whatever we can get people excited about <wendar> I just ran across a little game we might be able to revamp in a week <wendar> http://fourdigits.sourceforge.net/doc/index.html#play <wendar> I suppose it's silly, but when I was a kid my first "big" programming project was writing a Mastermind game in Forth with my dad <wendar> so, I have an irrational fondness for this kind of guessing game <wendar> funny, it even got wikipedia notice http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulls_and_cows <cjohnston> .19 <doctormo-other> wendar: Sounds good. <doctormo-other> mhall119: I'm betting it might. XML diff is not too hard, it's just a process that requires structural coherence mathematics. <doctormo-other> But with the svg stuff we have a much more well defined set of events to update the system with. <doctormo-other> When a shape is added, we're adding a node (possibly even a group). When a shape is transformed, we're changing the transform attributes. <mhall119> doctormo-other: yeah, that might be easier, especially if you limit what can be done <doctormo-other> cjohnston, mhall119: Is the Ubuntu website using the lite version or the java version? I've currently set up the java version rhonda96@example.net. <cjohnston> I may be missing something. <mhall119> doctormo-other: I think we're still using the original java one <mhall119> cjohnston: etherpad <mhall119> doctormo-other: AlanBell would be the one to ask though <cjohnston> for now etherpad <cjohnston> we will be switching to lite this cycle im told <AlanBell> java at the moment, yes <AlanBell> but that is a bit of a dead end * cjohnston personally would love to figure out a way where when its a pad for uds it has a UDS greeting, otherwise, a regular greeting <AlanBell> yeah, we can get that in #ubuntu-design 2011-11-13 <doctormo-other> AlanBell: Could you let me know how different the etherpad versions are for the editor? Check if the ace2 editor is still being used or not. <AlanBell> I think the design principal and protocol is pretty much the same <AlanBell> just node.js on the back end rather than a big java thingie <AlanBell> I am in the process of setting up an etherpad lite server to play about with, I think nigelb has one set up already <AlanBell> night all o/ <doctormo-other> niight #ubuntu-design 2011-11-14 <oSoMoN> good morning <MacSlow> greetings folks <peterm-ubuntu> morning <cjohnston> sabdfl: greetings! <doctormo-other> Hey cjohnston and of course everyone! <cjohnston> mornin doctormo-other <doctormo-other> cjohnston, mhall119: I've estimated that it'll take about 2 months work to make the svg-editor <-> etherpad graft. Workable, but etherpad's complexity does get in the way a bit. <doctormo-other> Getting hold of a javascript rockstar would take less time. So I'm going to put it to one side for now. <cjohnston> if you find one, let us know <doctormo-other> cjohnston: Pre-made is probably almost impossible, all the good ones have been bought, butchered or don't really work. <cjohnston> lol <cjohnston> then develop one? <doctormo-other> I certainly keep my eyes open for all kinds of miracles, I'll add this one to the list ;-) <doctormo-other> "then develop one?" > yes that's what the above is. <mhall119> daker: ^^ is that a project you'd be interested in> <mhall119> ? <daker> mhall119, what ? <mhall119> daker: putting a different front-end onto etherpad <mhall119> daker: doctormo-other wants to graft a simple graphics editor on top of etherpad's realtime edit syncing <doctormo-other> http://svg-edit.googlecode.com/svn/branches/2.5.1/editor/svg-editor.html <mhall119> doctormo-other: are you planning on using the lite version of etherpad for this? <daker> ah i see <doctormo-other> mhall119: I've only looked into the java version, but if it's using the ace2 editor thent he lite version will be exactly the same. <doctormo-other> The actual requirements are smaller than the entire functionality of svg-editor. But the core is the hard part. <Kaleo> hi <doctormo-other> Hey Kaleo <MacSlow> salut Kaleo <Kaleo> hi doctormo-other! <Kaleo> salut MacSlow <doctormo-other> Kaleo: How's your design? <Kaleo> doctormo-other: I don't design much; mostly implement designs :) <doctormo-other> Kaleo: Ah cool, are you interested in our game design challenge? <Kaleo> doctormo-other: not at the moment I am afraid <Kaleo> doctormo-other: very busy times for me <doctormo-other> Kaleo: No problem, tell your friends! :-D <daker> hello Kaleo <Kaleo> hi daker! #ubuntu-design 2011-11-15 <sladen> pleia2: http://launchpad.net/ubuntu-branding/+filebug?field.title=Publish+Precise+Pangolin+logo+as+vector+SVG and I'll try and work with marcashaslam tomorrow to find it * pleia2 submits :) <sladen> morning <sladen> jnick_tait: are you going to reschedule the cancelled meeting from yesterday? <sladen> jnick_tait: eg. is there space to arrange something later today? <sladen> jnick_tait: ta <MacSlow> hey sladen <Wyboredras> so... <Wyboredras> anyone else online? <MacSlow> sladen, do we know yet if we'll do a phone-call on Thursday or stick to IRC (here)? <MacSlow> hey Wyboredras <Wyboredras> sup <Wyboredras> hum... <MacSlow> Wyboredras, there are some folks here <Wyboredras> are we still going to tackle games? <Wyboredras> oh, sheers, MacSlow <Wyboredras> cheers* <MacSlow> Wyboredras, I don't think so <Wyboredras> what? wasn't that the purpose? <MacSlow> Wyboredras, not that I know of... can't recall "games" to have ever come up during the discussion at the UDS-session <Wyboredras> what is our target now? <MacSlow> Wyboredras, we'll still need to figure that out <Wyboredras> oh... but what happened then? why did the purpose cahnge? and wouldn't it be better if everyone worked by themselves and just annouced what app they're doing? <MacSlow> Wyboredras, do you refer to the "branding in games" topic of the blueprint? <sladen> MacSlow: can't see anything in the diary for Thursday. But I'm happy either way. Who else is going to be on; I can be in Millbank if it's easier <MacSlow> sladen, Allison told me (via eMail) <MacSlow> sladen, but not sure if you're also involved in the efforts behind this very blueprint... added my name for an action-item during the uds-session. <sladen> MacSlow: this is $this blueprint? <MacSlow> sladen, https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/design-p-design-and-community * sladen subscribes <sladen> pleia2: I've found the pangolin t-shirt logo <sladen> pleia2: just need to put it up somewhere <doctormo-other> sladen: Can you upload it to spreadubuntu ? <sladen> doctormo-other: I'm also working to Tom (who drew) it on a blog article <sladen> doctormo-other: question is whether to upload it /as part of that going out/, or to stick the PDF somewhere and then follow-up later <sladen> doctormo-other: working /with/ Tom <doctormo-other> sladen: Who owns the copyright? <doctormo-other> sladen: If you can, email it to me, I'll process it into an svg and upload it to the right places, please include copyright information and license. <sladen> doctormo-other: Copyright Canonical. What licence do you recommend? <doctormo-other> sladen: Creative Commons, Attribution is typical for these types or works, the addition of share-alike is likewise good for ensuring derivatives remain open. <sladen> CC-BY-SA ? <doctormo-other> yes <sladen> groovy <thorwil> sladen: wouldn't the best place for such graphics be the toolkit? <thorwil> http://design.canonical.com/brand/, within a new folder reserved for per-version graphics <doctormo-other> thorwil: Depends if it's a core brand or not <doctormo-other> I admit it would be cool to get a release toolkit, esp for the LTS <sladen> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-branding/+bug/890497 ... suggestions on there <sladen> I can put it where-ever would be best <sladen> plan is to write a blog post with some of the working intermediate design steps <sladen> and at that point we can point to whereever would be best <sladen> best/preferred <sladen> thorwil: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Precise until there's somewhere more appropriate <thorwil> ok <pleia2> sladen: thank you so much! #ubuntu-design 2011-11-16 <MacSlow> hey folks <mhall119> morning <YoBoY> hi designers :) <yaili> hi <YoBoY> there is a release date for the new design website (madebymake.something) ? My locoteam (ubuntu-fr) started to work on a new design and this site can really help us :) <yaili> YoBoY: not yet, I'm afraid, but I'm working on the schedule for that this week, as soon as possible, it's very important! :) <yaili> YoBoY: also, that won't be the correct url <YoBoY> yes sure :) <doctormo-other> Have people seen the post on planet from Christian Giordano? <YoBoY> there is some rules my team have to follow on top of the guidelines, or are we free to adapt these guidelines with our own ideas ? If I remember well my team was an example for a "type 3" ubuntu websites <mhall119> yaili: is there any help we can offer in getting the new design website out? <doctormo-other> wendar: Could I grab your ear for a few minutes? <YoBoY> doctormo-other: I have seen it and it was right on time. Our parisian party is over and I finally have more time to work on design <yaili> mhall119: sadly, no, it's mainly logistics <doctormo-other> nuthinking: ping <nuthinking> doctormo-other: hi <Andy80> hi :) <wendar> doctormo-other: good morning :) <wendar> doctormo-other: have got one meeting in 5mins, but free after that <mhall119> Hi all, I've started a wiki page for the design team: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesignTeam <mhall119> I think we should discuss what the mission for this collaborative team should be, what we would like to see as goals, and where we should limit our scope <om26er> I have a question, would the launcher have blur in future? <sladen> om26er: I think rosie/chaotic might have tried some experiements with blur in the design process <sladen> om26er: jaytaoko would be able to say what the actual situation on the implementation side is <om26er> i saw blur in the launcher sometime the Oneiric cycle IIRC <om26er> would be good to have the launcher blurred, in some cases the totally transparent panel can be un clear on eyes, especially for BFB <sladen> om26er: yes, IIRC in Orlando rosie, Otto, Cimi and MacSlow(?) were looking at possibilities for making the background work a little more effectively <om26er> sladen, that's interesting and cool to hear :-) <om26er> launcher needs to rock harder :-D <sladen> om26er: I think the general idea is to firm up what's there <sladen> om26er: eg. the reports of certain colour-combinations causing text<->background constrast issues <MacSlow> sladen, I was not directly involved in this particular discussion <MacSlow> I talked with Otto about other background-related stuff <calcmandan_pre> Hello folks <om26er> jaytaoko, continuing here, will the launcher have blur ? <jaytaoko> om26er: When the dash opens the launcher background becomes blurred <jaytaoko> om26er: same thing for the Dash and the panel. <om26er> and when there is not dash i.e. launcher over a maximized window is revealed, blurred launcher would look more attractive wont it? <jaytaoko> om26er: you are asking about having the blur be permanent in the launcher? <om26er> yes jaytaoko <jaytaoko> om26er: it is technically feasible. However there are a many reason why we don't do it at this stage. <jaytaoko> om26er: First it has to be part of the design. <jaytaoko> om26er: then there is the cost in resource and performance <om26er> I'll open a bug for that to see what design thinks about that <om26er> oh performance :/ <jaytaoko> om26er: The launcher being always visible, having an active blur there is more demanding <om26er> jaytaoko, that would be more of a problem on slower GPUs <om26er> right? <om26er> toggle FTW! :-D <jaytaoko> om26er: right! Oneiric was our first release of the active blur. We can still improve on the technique we use <jaytaoko> om26er: So it is not excluded that we are going to make the active blur more optimized in the future. <om26er> jaytaoko, could I assume "future" to be LTS+1 or that may happen this cycle as well ? <jaytaoko> om26er: Not sure; the first requirement is to have design decide on the treatment they have for the launcher <om26er> jaytaoko, I will open a bug about that :-) <jaytaoko> om26er: in the mean time that doesn't stop us to find new ways to optimize the algorithm for the blur <jaytaoko> om26er: no problem! <om26er> jaytaoko, thanks for all the info :-) <jaytaoko> om26er: you're welcome :) * AlanBell wonders if the London design team folks would like to come out to play <AlanBell> we have a pub meet on the 8th of December in Surbiton <AlanBell> and christmas meal on the 9th of december at Dans Le Noir in London <AlanBell> http://loco.ubuntu.com/teams/ubuntu-uk * AlanBell further wonders if sabdfl is in town for that? <sabdfl> Dans le Noir tried to kill me <sabdfl> well <sabdfl> mistook 'allergic to shellfish' for 'i'll have extra shrimp, please' <sabdfl> it was entertaining :-) <sabdfl> great night, otherwise <AlanBell> gosh, that isn't so clever <AlanBell> nice 'tashe by the way <doctormo-other> sabdfl: An attempt on your life! never! <doctormo-other> AlanBell: We put in for lil-Violet's passport, I'm hoping I can come to that event still. <popey> oh wow, you're coming too? <popey> I've convinced Mrs Popey to come along too <AlanBell> excellent! <popey> I said that even though the place will be full of geeks, she wont be able to see them. <doctormo-other> popey: With the wife off on maternity leave and me off forever, the schedule is flexible. Matter of baby's schedule now ;-) <AlanBell> doctormo-other: do sign up on the page, we have a hard limit of places and it is first come first serve, you can change your attendance up to 48 hours in advance <popey> Do you have someone to look after mini-mo whilst you're eating unknown food product in the dark? <doctormo-other> http://loco.ubuntu.com/events/ubuntu-uk/1409/detail/ <- popey like the new design for listing attendees? <doctormo-other> AlanBell: Job done. <AlanBell> yay \o/ <doctormo-other> popey: Probably will be the wife, or my good friends in Surrey. <doctormo-other> ...looking after the lil one. <pleia2> doctormo-other: lyz is my lp name, pleia2 won't work (that's why I changed it) <doctormo-other> pleia2: I forgot why I needed it. <popey> <wendar> pleia2: oh, good I just fixed workitem in https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/community-p-ux-participation <pleia2> thanks :) #ubuntu-design 2011-11-17 <MacSlow> greetings everybody <om26er> JohnLea, Hi! I was wondering what do you thing for the launcher to have blurred background all the time? <om26er> was it considered at some stage? <JohnLea> om26er; the launcher background should be identical to the Dash, alt-tab, etc... it is the same material and therefor should have the same blur, etc... <JohnLea> om26er; not having it is a bug <om26er> JohnLea, currently when the dash is not opened and we reveal the launcher from the left edge, its solve transparent with no blur <JohnLea> om26er; if there is not a bug reported already about this, feel free to report it and ping me the bug number <JohnLea> om26er; yes, this is a bug <om26er> s/solve/sole <om26er> JohnLea, I was in the process of reporting the bug already :-) i will ping you in a few minutes <JohnLea> om26er; great, thx ;-) <om26er> JohnLea, bug 891575 :-) <om26er> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/891575 <mainerror> Quick question. I've asked this after UDS-O already but I know that you guys have been quite busy. <mainerror> What is the status on the Ubuntu animal logos in SVG format? <mainerror> Do you plan to release them? <wendar> [11:43:05] <sladen> thorwil: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Precise until there's somewhere more appropriate <mainerror> Oh nice. <wendar> Hi all <MacSlow> hey wendar <wendar> We're going to have an (informal) meeting here in channel <MacSlow> wendar, oh... Allison... had no idea this is your nick :) <wendar> We're talking about this blueprint https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/community-p-ux-participation <wendar> MacSlow: :) <charline_> wendar, I'm here. <MacSlow> hey charline_ <wendar> hi charline_ <wendar> doctormo isn't on yet, but will be here soon <wendar> I'd like to start off with some introductions, anyone who's interested in this project. <wendar> I'll start <wendar> just paste in a sentence or two when you can <wendar> I'm Allison Randal, years ago I worked as designer. Most of my time is development/packaging these days, but I still do the occasional book cover or graphic piece for my slides. I'm looking forward to working on some user journey's for Ubuntu. <charline_> I'm Charline Poirier, currently the acting head of design as well as the user research programme lead. <charline_> I tend to look at design from the users' point of view and its impact on users <MacSlow> Ola... I'm MacSlow (member of Canonical's DX-team, did NotifyOSD... now working on unity) I'm here to help and mentor anything technical and guide community people about best practises for asset/artwork flow designer->engineer. <MacSlow> ahm... real name being Mirco MÃ¼ller... sorry :) <wendar> okay, so a few bits and pieces to start <wendar> doctormo created a launchpad team yesterday <wendar> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-design <mhall119> I thought we already had an LP team, didn't cjohnston make one at UDS? <wendar> mhall119: link? <wendar> and, hi <wendar> thanks for creating the DesignTeam wikipage <mhall119> wendar: I'm looking, I could be wrong <mainerror> So everyone interested in the community design team is supposed to introduce himself? <mhall119> ok, I'm not seeing anything, so maybe he didn't <wendar> mainerror: yes, please do <wendar> mainerror: just a little about yourself, or your interest in Ubuntu design <mainerror> Alright. My name is Octavian Damiean. I've started as a web-designer and moved to mobile applications design. I'm involved in the Q&A platform Ask Ubuntu and am generally very interested in design and user experience. <mainerror> This is something I made for the Natty release. <mainerror> http://askubuntu.com/questions/28086/what-are-unitys-keyboard-and-mouse-shortcuts/36648#36648 <MacSlow> mainerror, oh... never seen that... sweet! <mhall119> I've seen it, very helpful <wendar> mainerror: oh, neat, I had that as my wallpaper for most of Natty. Never knew who made it. <mainerror> :) <mainerror> Glad you like it. <cjohnston> mhall119, the team I made was strictly for tha brand guideline stuff <mhall119> oh, ok <cjohnston> which I'm still waiting to hear from yaili on if we can get access to the site <wendar> cjohnston: ah, makes sense. Yes, we have two blueprints working on this channel. <wendar> mhall119: introduce yourself? <mhall119> My name is Michael Hall, I'm a web developer for Canonical ISD, as well as community web projects such as Summit and LoCo Team Portal. <mhall119> I'm not a designer, but I am a consumer of the product of designs both from the Canonical design team, as well as community designers <mhall119> It's my goal here to bring the two sets of designers together, to communicate and work collaboratively to improve the quality and quantity of design products available for Ubuntu <cjohnston> wendar,I dont know that we had a bp, it was am overview of the new guideline stuff.. and during that session I asked the design team members who were present if they would be willing to join a chanel to make communication more open and available <wendar> maybe I should say two projects/initiaitives? <wendar> cjohnston: introduce yourself? <wendar> cjohnston: and thanks for all the help getting this set up <cjohnston> what he said except I'm not canonical.. im on my cell phone so thats it for now <wendar> am I missing anyone else who'd like to do an introduction now? <mhall119> Chris works on several community websites, he's the project lead for the LoCo Team Portal and staus.ubuntu.com, and is heavily involved in Summit as well (and probably more that I can't think of) <mhall119> daker: are you around to introduce yourself? <wendar> So, doctormo and I worked together on some initial drafting yesterday, to start filling in details on the new team <wendar> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesignTeam <wendar> hi doctormo-other <mhall119> morning doctormo-other <wendar> doctormo-other: introduce yourself? <doctormo-other> Hey guys, <doctormo-other> I'm doctormo aka Martin Owens, originally a programmer with media skills I've moved over the years into design, art and production workflows. <wendar> doctormo-other: I just put up our draft text on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesignTeam, for all to comment on <doctormo-other> great, <mainerror> Looks good so far. <doctormo-other> This is fantastic wendar, brilliant. I've just updated critique to peer review. <doctormo-other> wendar: The contact should just be the CC until we have a leadership in place. No need to mention canonical vs community. <mhall119> wendar, doctormo-other: do you think we can work something into the mission statement about making the designs work available for reuse under an open license? <wendar> doctormo-other: good idea, added <wendar> mhall119: yes, makes sense <charline_> wendar: would it be worth specifying the diversity of skills that is implied in 'design', visual, UX, interaction, brand, etc.? <charline_> wendar: and when we mention the user journey, we could map out how these different skills collaborate <mainerror> I think a list of helpful resources might be good. <mhall119> mainerror: +1 <wendar> charline_: yes, very good <mhall119> links to the branch guidelines (and new portal once it's live), etc <mainerror> A glossary, links to good design, UX, etc. blogs. <doctormo-other> mhall119: Added in a bit in the mission and a bit in the rules. <doctormo-other> mainerror: That's be great, do you know where to find them? <mainerror> Well I can only share what I use/read. http://www.alistapart.com/articles/ <mhall119> doctormo-other: wendar: do you think we should decide on a few "preferred" licenses? <wendar> mhall119: it looks like doctormo listed CC-BY and CC-BY-SA <wendar> mhall119: are there others it'd be good to add to that? <doctormo-other> mhall119: In my experience, yes. There are only 4 or 5 useful licenses and most other things are disruptive. <mhall119> wendar: we should pick some code licenses too, GPL/AGPL, for things like html and css files that are produced <doctormo-other> Others include GPL (not really for art), Public Domain Declaration (not a license), CC0. <wendar> mhall119: ah, yes, that's true, also for javascript <wendar> charline_: would you like to write a sentence or two on the different skillsets of design, and how they interact? <charline_> wendar: sure <doctormo-other> mainerror: That looks good. <mhall119> wendar: trademark policy is likely something that's going to come up repeatedly, we should both link to the current trademark policy, as well as set some guidelines for how and when designs should use it <doctormo-other> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesignTeam/Resources <wendar> mhall119: we might want to do a subpage on the wiki... <wendar> hah, doctormo beat me to it :) <mainerror> doctormo-other: Ah nice. <doctormo-other> mainerror: Feel free to expand the entry. <wendar> mhall119: so, maybe a "Licensing" heading there? <mhall119> on the Resources page? <wendar> mhall119: or, if we want more explanation than links, could be DesignTeam/Licensing <yaili> cjohnston: working on it still, sorry, I'll commit to having something up next week (eek!) <mhall119> wendar: I think a /Licensing page would work best, we may be asked for a short explanation for why we prefer a given license <wendar> mhall119: sounds good, would you like to do a first pass on that page? <cjohnston> thanks yaili <wendar> The last topic for today is picking a small first project <mhall119> wendar: sure thing <wendar> do people have some thoughts there? <wendar> it'd be nice to pick something small at first <wendar> maybe even a 1-week project <wendar> so we start getting in the flow <wendar> and have something "finished" <cjohnston> what are you wanting in a project <MacSlow> I remember someone mentioning something about "branding"-work in a free game... not sure though what the "branding" actually meant in that context. <mhall119> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesignTeam/Licenses <mhall119> how about making a logo for the new team? <wendar> mhall119: page looks awesome, thanks <wendar> mhall119: doctormo snuck one in https://launchpadlibrarian.net/85284103/ubuntu-design-64.png <wendar> mhall119: I see a stylized "D", and a speech bubble for collaboration <wendar> (this is on the launchpad team) <wendar> mhall119: hmmm... I also see a paintbrush <wendar> cjohnston: looking for something complex enough to need a simple user journey <wendar> mhall119: yeah, doctormo suggested a game, and I like the idea, it's simple enough not to get bogged down, and complex enough that there is a user experience impact <mhall119> a new game, or redesign an existing one? <wendar> mhall119: reviewing an existing one <wendar> I pointed at http://fourdigits.sourceforge.net/ (which is really, really simple) <wendar> I happened to be mentoring the developer on packaging it last weekend <wendar> but, didn't ask the developer if he'd be interesting in collaborating on something like this <mhall119> is there anything in the default install we can do? <MacSlow> wendar, looks like a valid first target <mhall119> solitaire or something? <mhall119> gbrainy might be a good candidate, but being mono it may be on it's way out * wendar poking through the games preinstalled... <mhall119> we could make an Ubuntu theme for the solitaire card deck <wendar> yeah, gbrainy was the first I looked at <doctormo-other> My suggestion was atlantik, the monopoly game. <doctormo-other> mhall119: I thought there already was an Ubuntu theme? <mhall119> doctormo-other: mine has the Gnome foot <wendar> doctormo-other: I liked that one too <wendar> (the monopoly-ish game) <doctormo-other> mhall119: Maybe something that disapeared in a package update, because I remember it in 8.10 <mhall119> doctormo-other: could be, could have only happened with the Gnome3 updates <mhall119> either way, I don't see an Ubuntu card theme <wendar> whatever we pick, it should be something where we can collaborate with the upstream developer <doctormo-other> I agree wendar <wendar> so, talk with them ahead of time to see if they'd like to participate <doctormo-other> Aye aye <mhall119> I'm not sure if upstream would want ubuntu-branded cards, but they might take an unbranded "human" or "light" themed one <mhall119> ok, whatever you guys pick, let me know and I'll reach out to the project developers <wendar> mhall119: we may have to go the other direction, reach out first, and pick based on which upstreams are willing <wendar> we could reach out to all 4 <mhall119> I'd like to do something in the default install if we can, because it'll give the most exposure to the team right away <mainerror> mhall119: +1 <wendar> gbrainy, gtkatlantic, solitaire, 4digits <wendar> mhall119: yes, I agree <MacSlow> and what about considering moving a game into the default install... if their upstream is very collaborative? <mainerror> doctormo-other: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesignTeam/Resources - I'll add more over time. <wendar> MacSlow: also possible <mhall119> MacSlow: we'd have to discuss that with the platform team, it will depend on the size and stability of the game <wendar> MacSlow: (I'm moving 4 digits that way) <doctormo-other> mainerror: Great <wendar> mhall119: it will also partly depend on the visual appeal of the game <wendar> mhall119: something really simple and beautiful would have a good chance of getting in <MacSlow> mhall119, sure CD-size is always an issue... but assuming mono moves out... that would free a lot <doctormo-other> Now there's an idea, incetivised design. <mhall119> wendar: right, but the visual appeal we can do something about :) <mhall119> the size and stability, not as much <mainerror> I would probably free a lot but our plan to get a game in might collide with someones plan to get something else in. <mainerror> It would probably free a lot but our plan to get a game in might collide with someones plan to get something else in. <mainerror> Sorry. IRC Cloud is being weird right now. <mhall119> working with something already in the default isntall would definitely be easier, but a small game like 4digits we can probably get in <doctormo-other> wendar: If the idea for trying to get it into thed efault is a good one to follow up, then count gtkatlantik out, it'll have potential legal dangers. <wendar> doctormo-other: ah, too bad <wendar> other candidates to add? <mainerror> Gotta run for now. Bye. <wendar> mainerror: thanks! <wendar> it looks like the Puzzles section of the software center has some simple bits <wendar> (not default, but potential) <wendar> how about mhall119, you contact the solitare folks, and I'll contact the 4digits guy, and anyone else can contact developers of little games that look good <wendar> and see what kind of responses we get next week? <mhall119> wendar: sounds good <wendar> other thoughts before we wrap up this meeting? <wendar> okay, thanks all! <mhall119> thanks wendar <daker> mhall119, introduce myself to ? <mhall119> daker: to everyone here, so we get to know eachother <mhall119> I added the initial project ideas to the wiki team page <cjohnston> mornin svwilliams <svwilliams> morning cjohnston * cjohnston pokes doctormo-other * doctormo-other pokes cjohnston <cjohnston> got a bunch of pending members to your team <doctormo-other> I know :-) <cjohnston> makin em all wait? ;-) <doctormo-other> cjohnston: You've indicated previously that you were interested in making sure the project works and not so much in design. <doctormo-other> Is that still true? <svwilliams> which project doctormo-other and cjohnston <svwilliams> sorry if I'm being too nosy <cjohnston> svwilliams: the new design project team thing <svwilliams> ahh <doctormo-other> So we're still mulling over the membership policy. <cjohnston> gotcha <doctormo-other> Anyone who's worked in ubuntu design before is in initally. But the idea it to have ubuntu-design like a motu group. <cjohnston> gotcha <cjohnston> then kick me out <cjohnston> lol <cjohnston> i want to be proactive in getting people involved, and getting assistance with the correct people and whatnot.. i have no 'design' ability per se <svwilliams> well will ubuntu-design be purely designers? <svwilliams> or include members of projects that need design? <doctormo-other> good point <doctormo-other> I think it'll be a working group, so if you need design, then you can come here and talk about it and contact the right people. <doctormo-other> If you need to get involved with your own design, same applied but you get to brag about it later if you decide to do more design and want to join. <doctormo-other> cjohnston: What do you think of having an open group? My fear is that it sort of becomes a popularity thing <svwilliams> well if its open is it a popularity thing, doesn't it kill the popularity thing <svwilliams> cause the response to beign on ubuntu-design is sure everyone can be on it <svwilliams> unless you are worried about people joining for the sake of joining and then everything is cluttered with people <cjohnston> i wasnt able to be here for the entire meeting, so if it was defined, I missed it, but has the project been completely defined.. last we spoke, i don't think that it was totally <doctormo-other> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesignTeam mission statement and everything <doctormo-other> We've approved most people I think, since they've been active, have introduced themselves etc. So we're not going to be strict about the group membership, we'll just make sure everyone is actually interested in doing design work. :-) <doctormo-other> cjohnston: wendar wonders if you'd like to join as an administrator. <cjohnston> Out design projects <cjohnston> thats fine <cjohnston> so here is what i see out of the mission statement: <cjohnston> the first paragraph to me reads that its a moderated group.. <cjohnston> the second reads anyone interested <cjohnston> bb in a minute <mhall119> doctormo-other: I'm in favor of an open team, if we need a motu-like team let's make that a separate one <doctormo-other> wendar: your consensus is required <wendar> so, something like "ubuntu-design" and "ubuntu-designers"? <mhall119> or ubuntu-design-maintainers <svwilliams> or ubuntu-design and ubuntu-design-leaders <doctormo-other> Not really leaders though :-) <mhall119> yeah <mhall119> I don't like -designers for the same reason, we'll have people in -design that are designers <doctormo-other> I like your idea wendar <doctormo-other> ubuntu-dotu ? <wendar> it does make sense to have one group that has permissions, gets assigned workitems, and such, and another where anyone can join <mhall119> with the exception of a ppa, I'm not even sure why we'd need a non-open team at this point <doctormo-other> mhall119: Flooding, design is full of bike shed painters. <doctormo-other> Imagine, group goes live, gets to the front page of OMG... <mhall119> ok, then let's go with a name that connotates work, not status or talent <mhall119> like -design-maintainers, or -design-keepers <doctormo-other> Implies something we don't want to, that designs will be maintained. <wendar> we need a good word for "getting your elbows dirty" design work <wendar> drafters? <cjohnston> sorry.. im at work <mhall119> I like that <mhall119> or -organizers, -managers, -coordinators <doctormo-other> mhall119: Implied a level of authority we may not want. <doctormo-other> I like drafters <cjohnston> if it makes the front page of OMG i def want to be a part of it.. <cjohnston> lol.. kidding of course <mhall119> ok, +1 for drafters for me <mhall119> curators? <wendar> collaborators? <cjohnston> design-jfdi'ers? <mhall119> the bulk of the collaboration should happen in the open team <wendar> the teams are really just permission groups (and badges) <mhall119> the name really doesn't matter much, so if we all like ubuntu-design-drafters, let's just go with that and get the ball rolling <wendar> the collaboration is here <wendar> (totally open) <wendar> and, I guess a mailing list <wendar> and maybe the occasional google hangout, for face-to-face <cjohnston> no more mailing lists. <cjohnston> lol <wendar> cjohnston: :) true nuff <wendar> when we get a good way going to share images, that may be all we need <doctormo-other> wendar: Speaking of which, how goes the request to get an image bin? <wendar> haven't submitted one to IS, we were still figuring out what we wanted? <wendar> I don't see a good open source one we could just host <wendar> but, there's been more discussion here in the past few days on what kind of tool we wanted <wendar> and, I also wondered if using an existing site that designers know would be a good chance to attract more designers? <wendar> mhall119, doctormo-other: so, go ahead and open up ubuntu-design? <doctormo-other> +1 I think we have consensus. <pleia2> I know some people don't care for mailing lists ;) but it would be nice to have so people who aren't quite as involved can keep up with announced meeting notes and such (I'm particularly thinking of the CC at the moment here, we can help with guidance but not everyone can always be in here reading channel) <doctormo-other> pleia2: Perhaps an announce-only mailing list? <doctormo-other> ubuntu-design-announce <doctormo-other> wendar: As for the image-bin, I know plenty of people who could build one from scratch. I think cjohnston could :-D <doctormo-other> And the quicker we
{'channel': 'ubuntu-design', 'month': 11}