#ubuntu-gnome 2013-04-01 <roasted> hello friends <roasted> I just added the gnome3 and gnome3-staging PPAs for ubuntu gnome 13.04, but I'm still getting gnome 3.7 <roasted> every guide on the planet said those 2 PPAs = Gnome 3.8. What am I missing? <jbicha> roasted: GNOME 3.7 basically is 3.8 https://live.gnome.org/ThreePointSeven/ <tyrog> roasted: Nothing. You have 3.8. The release candidate of it to be more precise :) <jbicha> until we figure out https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=696981 you probably won't get gnome-shell 3.8.0 though <ubot5> Gnome bug 696981 in general "many keyboard shortcuts stopped working with 3.8.0 on Ubuntu" [Normal,Unconfirmed] <tyrog> jbicha: do you recommend keeping using the staging ppa in the following weeks as more packages move to gnome3 ppa or drop it? <jbicha> tyrog: uh, some things in the staging ppa are broken so I only recommend it if you can deal with that and know how to use ppa-purge <tyrog> jbicha: I do. But gnome3 ppa by itself provides gnome 3.8 already? Recent snapshots of the shell, extensions and all that stuff, I mean <jbicha> I don't think we'll push gnome-control-center 3.8 to the regular gnome3 ppa this month or the next because it needs a lot of work <tyrog> In what aspects? <jbicha> the latest version of gnome-shell and extensions that works is in the regular gnome3 ppa <jbicha> auto-suspend is broken without logind, external Settings panels don't work, OnlyShowIn (to hide some panels in certain desktops) is broken, several Ubuntu patches need to be rewritten, etc. <tyrog> that happens with the control center 3.8 from staging ppa? <jbicha> yes, also Unity has some major issues with gnome-settings-daemon 3.8 <tyrog> jbicha: Will you be able to put only one of the instances of "Online Accounts" in the control center, instead of 2? <jbicha> no, that's a complicated problem since neither goa nor uoa support every app we need <tyrog> And the language installer from Ubuntu doesn't work in Gnome 3.8 right? At least I can't find mine after the upgrade to 3.8. Using raring <jbicha> tyrog: you can install language-selector-gnome and run gnome-language-selector manually from the command line <jbicha> we need to add that to our release notes since others will have that same question <tyrog> jbicha: Done :) . Very easy. But why does the application get removed from the menu/activities? <jbicha> setting the language also doesn't work right with g-c-c 3.8 (lots of regressions... :( ) <jbicha> but I think it works fine in System Settings in 3.6 <Ponch0> also becareful with updates, they may remove ur hnome install and reinstall unity <tyrog> Ponch0: That happened to you? <Ponch0> yesterday <tyrog> jbicha: Another bug I'm facing, don't know if it is related to the packaging of gnome3 in ubuntu or if is upstream. In classic mode, the notification bar is always up when in youtube watching fullscreen videos :) <tyrog> Didn't try that in the Shell yet <roasted> I don't understand. The same PPAs in Ubuntu give me +1-226-633-4109. Do the PPAs auto detect Ubuntu vs Ubuntu GNOME to decide who gets what? <jbicha> tyrog: uh it should show in the Activities Overview at least, could you file a bug against language-selector-gnome? I'm assuming it shows with gnome-shell 3.6 just not with 3.8 <tyrog> roasted: No, they simply compare the package versions I think <roasted> tyrog: so is it considered odd that I got +1-226-633-4109 on Ubuntu and 3.7 on Ubuntu Gnome? (both 13.04, both with Gnome3 and Gnome3-staging PPAs) <roasted> or expected behavior? <tyrog> jbicha: Yes, shows in 3.6, not in 3.8 <tyrog> roasted: What do you mean by 3.8? The shell? Or what? Any way, both Ubuntus should give you the same version <jbicha> tyrog: could you try downgrading all your gnome-menus packages to the 3.6 versions? <jbicha> tyrog: https://launchpad.net/~gnome3-team/+archive/gnome3/+sourcepub/3008532/+listing-archive-extra gives a list of the affected package names <jbicha> I'm thinking that GNOME doesn't like something in the Categories line of language-selector.desktop <roasted> tyrog: an hour ago I had Ubuntu 13.04 64 bit running on this laptop. I added the gnome3 and gnome3-staging PPAs. I ran update, upgrade, dist-upgrade, and got +1-226-633-4109. On this same laptop, now, I did the same thing. Ubuntu Gnome 13.04 64 bit, gnome3 and gnome3-staging, update, upgrade, dist-upgrade.... 3.7 <roasted> I'm having lag when I search for applications, so I was hoping that was a 3.7 thing solved by 3.8, but if I can't get 3.8 (even though I just had 3.8...)........ meh. <tyrog> You shouldn't use staging anyways. It contains some broken packages as jbicha said <roasted> oh, okay. I'll just ppa-purge it. <roasted> but would the regular gnome3 ppa give me 3.7 or 3.8? <tyrog> jbicha: I downgraded menus to the version on the gnome3 ppa and language selector now appears in the menu :) <tyrog> roasted: Don't worry, it will give the best 3.8 they have managed to package at the moment. 3.8 is still very new, not many distros have it <roasted> tyrog: right. I get that. I'm just saying, I duplicated identical efforts in ubuntu and ubuntu gnome, and ubuntu gave me 3.8 and ubuntu gnome gave me 3.7. That was just confusing me a bit. <tyrog> jbicha: fonts problem in the ubuntu software center, do you also have it? <tyrog> roasted: If you want to use GNOME, just use Ubuntu Gnome. If you want to use both Unity and Gnome Shell/Classic, then use Ubuntu. But Unity will probably break with the update through ppa, as it is 3.6-based. <roasted> tyrog: right, and I'm using Ubuntu Gnome... <roasted> The thing is, Ubuntu with these PPAs (so far) actually gave me a better Gnome experience, as Gnome Shell wasn't freezing whenever I searched for an application. <roasted> Hence my interest in getting it to 3.8 as I thought it was a 3.7 issue. <tyrog> roasted: reinstall Ubuntu gnome, and add only the gnome3 ppa, then dist-upgrade. Then if you have bugs, report them :) <roasted> I am on Ubuntu Gnome. <roasted> I'll ppa-purge staging and see if that helps. <tyrog> like jbicha said, 3.7 IS 3.8. The packages currently on the gnome3 ppa are the latest ones known to work with less bugs <roasted> okay <tyrog> I have used both versions from gnome3 ppa and staging, and even the gnome testing ppa, and all of them provide the same gnome shell if that is what you want to know :) <roasted> what I don't get is this... Ubuntu 13.04 + gnome3 + gnome3-staging = gnome +1-226-633-4109. Ubuntu Gnome 13.04 + gnome3 + gnome3-staging = gnome 3.7.92. That's what confused me. <tyrog> roasted: Gnome staging doesn't have packages that change the version of gnome 3 from the one that is currently in Gnome3 ppa <jbicha> roasted: you're confused, gnome-shell +1-226-633-4109 has not been uploaded to either of the gnome3 ppa's because there are some problems with the new version <tyrog> jbicha: do you have the bug with the fonts in USC? <tyrog> and flash in fullscreen? <tyrog> roasted: It should be 3.7.92, not 3.8. If you have 3.8, then you are using any other PPA <jbicha> tyrog: if you mean in the USC sidebar, yes <roasted> I'm not confused over anything. I put Ubuntu 13.04, gnome3, and gnome3-staging on this laptop like 6 times. Each time, +1-226-633-4109 <roasted> There's no confusion over that. It's what I experienced multiple times. <roasted> That's why I was confused with Ubuntu Gnome, as I hit 3.7 and kind of thought, well that's odd... <tyrog> jbicha: The fonts in the categories. <tyrog> roasted: you ARE confused, because 3.8 is NOT in the gnome3 ppa <jbicha> tyrog: could you file that bug too? ;) <tyrog> 3.8 FINAL, to be more precise <jbicha> roasted: https://launchpad.net/~gnome3-team/+archive/gnome3/+packages?field.name_filter=gnome-shell&field.status_filter=&field.series_filter=raring <roasted> then it must have been in gnome3-staging <roasted> I added those TWO PPAs <roasted> and got +1-226-633-4109 I'm 100% positive of it. <tyrog> roasted: It isn't there either <jbicha> roasted: maybe you were using the ricotz testing ppa? <tyrog> probably <roasted> I used ricotz on my initial install of my deskteop, but not on my laptop. <roasted> all of the guides I read said for Ubuntu 13.04 to use those two PPAs, hence why I only added those two on thi slaptop. <roasted> And bingo. Just like the guides said, I got 3.8 <tyrog> roasted: what packages are you checking? <roasted> checking? <tyrog> the versions <roasted> gnome-shell --version <roasted> via terminal <jbicha> roasted: please run apt-cache policy gnome-shell <roasted> well, I just purged staging on this laptop. would that matter? <tyrog> roasted: no, but you should purge it anyways <roasted> yeah, I just meant in reference to running apt-cache <roasted> what are you wanting to see from this? <tyrog> roasted: gnome3-staging doesn't have linda89@example.com. <roasted> I installed gnome-shell <jbicha> roasted: that will tell you what version of gnome-shell is available and where it came from <tyrog> 3.8 is ONLY in ricotz ppa <roasted> jbicha: oh, I see. This was from my install earlier on this laptop. I formatted Ubuntu in favor of Ubuntu GNOME. <roasted> tyrog: okay, well, I somehow found 3.8 without ricotz on 13.04. <roasted> from gnome-shell --version, at least. :) <roasted> http://www.webupd8.org/2013/03/gnome-38-beta-available-in-ppa-for.html <tyrog> that is 3.7.x, which is THE SAME as 3.8. It is the dev version that ended with 3.8 <roasted> would it be possible it flagged +1-226-633-4109 from gnome-shell --version then? <tyrog> tell the outputs of that command, and the one jbicha told before <roasted> tyrog: I can't. This is from an install I formatted earlier. <roasted> tyrog: I had installed Ubuntu 13.04 on this laptop about 4 separate times, each time adding gnome3 and gnome3-staging to do different testing and messing around. I formatted it today for Ubuntu Gnome. <roasted> I was just tossing that comment around since I was a little confused over that. But in the end it doesn't matter that much. :D <tyrog> roasted: Dont worry about it then. Just use the Gnome3 PPA <roasted> tyrog: already on it ;) <tyrog> roasted: can you open a video on youtube, in fullscreen, and tell me if you get the notification bar down in the screen? <roasted> I do have to admit, this freezing I'm getting when searching for applications is enough for me to put Ubuntu back in and just PPA gnome on that side. <tyrog> roasted: After purging staging, you should reboot <roasted> I see no notification bar <roasted> would I have to run another upgrade or dist-upgrade to correct things? <roasted> after the purge? <roasted> or does ppa-purge automagically do that? <tyrog> supposedly no <roasted> sounds good - brb. <tyrog> but there is nothing wrong with trying the dist-upgrade after purging... <roasted> hm, I got the freeze one time, but with 8 other appications so far, nadda. <tyrog> freezes are normal with these all around search tools like unity and gnome shell <roasted> I see - I just never saw it before, on 3.6, 3.7, 3.8, etc :P <roasted> seems to be better now, but I'll try a dist-upgrade and see how it fairs. <tyrog> brb - going to test the shell <Ponch0> how do I reinstall gnome shell along side ubuntu since it was removed last night? <Ponch0> both PPAs are already in <roasted> freezing is back. I didn't have this on ubuntu with gnome 3. :((((( <jbicha> Ponch0: I recommend installing ubuntu-gnome-desktop <Ponch0> jbicha thanks <Ponch0> it doesn't work. <jbicha> could you post the errors you get then? <Ponch0> E: Invalid operation ubuntu-gnome-desktop <roasted> is gnome-clocks currently broken? <jbicha> sudo apt-get install ubuntu-gnome-desktop <Ponch0> it was yes <roasted> getting TypeError: Argument 1 does not allow None as a value <roasted> via terminal <roasted> for 'gnome-clocks' <roasted> (with a bunch of other crap too) <Ponch0> heh duh thanks <Ponch0> everythings back to normal, thank you flying spaghetti monster <roasted> was the battery indicator broken in 3.7? <Ponch0> it was for me <roasted> great... <Ponch0> it's fine now <roasted> in 3.7.92? <Ponch0> yup <roasted> I'm just flat out not seeing it right now <roasted> and I'm on battery power <roasted> maybe another reboot is in order? <Ponch0> yeah I was missing it for awhile also <Ponch0> I think it's a theme that was messing with it, but I forgot at this point <roasted> I'm fully updated, still not seeing it. let me change the theme though. <Ponch0> yeah i'm not a 100% but I think that was the culprit <roasted> ah yes <roasted> froze for 10 seconds while typing "tweak" in search <Ponch0> I don't get that either but I never had that issue besides an occasional freeze, or if the computer went Idle it always froze <roasted> I get short blips of lag when I type in the search <roasted> like I'll type firefox and it'll do firef <roasted> and sit there for a few esconds <roasted> or synaptic... synapt (for a few seconds) <Ponch0> I understand,, I don't have that issue. <Ponch0> just when computer goes idle i pretty much have to restart. <roasted> I didn't have that issue on ubuntu with gnome3, but I have it on ubuntu-gnome with gnome3. <roasted> meh. maybe with the next update. <roasted> also, I changed my theme to the only other default one available - simple - no battery icon, but accessibility comes back with that theme, and goes away with adwaita again <Ponch0> roasted: I don't have the issue of computer pretty much blanking out in idle when I have ubuntu with gnome 3 <roasted> Ponch0: so you're on Ubuntu... not Ubuntu-Gnome? <Ponch0> I'm on ubuntu 13.04 that has unity as alternative at log in <Ponch0> i pretty much have 2 choices log into the ubuntu to desktop or gnome desktop. <roasted> yeah <roasted> I wanted a pure gnome expeirence, that's why I tried ubuntu gnome <roasted> but if this lapotp locks up once more I'll be formatting it <Ponch0> yeah I understand, at the time when I installed the new ubuntu non of the other versions of ubuntu were working with my hardware. <Ponch0> so I took the first ISO i found. <Ponch0> I did remove the ubuntu desktop and only had ubuntu-gnome but yesterday an update removed gnome and reinstalled the ubuntu unity desktop <roasted> just made sure I was fully updated and rebooted - still no battery indicator. <roasted> does the gnome3 ppa get me 3.7 on ubuntu 12.10? <Ponch0> i udnno 12.10 doeskt work with my hardware <Ponch0> just do what I did. install ubuntu 13.04 with unity and than install gnome along side <Ponch0> also the current theme i'm using that shows battery is called "numix" <roasted> numix... k I'll check into that <Ponch0> im pretty sure I got it from webupd8 <roasted> I just tried 3 different themes and I didn't see the battery indicator <roasted> you'd think the default one would work <Ponch0> http://www.webupd8.org/2013/03/beautiful-numix-gtk3-theme-released.html <Ponch0> i actually don't like the battery indicator cuz i'm always plugged in but I like the theme <roasted> numix installed <roasted> no battery indicator <roasted> nice <Ponch0> hm that's what did it for me I'm pretty sure, I dunno :( <darkxst> ricotz, hi <dupondje> Anyone has empathy running on Raring ? :s <roasted> dupondje: I have empathy running with raring for gtalk and facebook. <roasted> I find it a little confusing that I have new icon themes installed to /usr/share/icons and tweak tool is not changing them as it should. <_< <roasted> well, this is interesting. <roasted> A friend of mine and I have been doing some tinkering with Gnome. We've been bouncing between Ubuntu+Gnome3 PPA and UbuntuGNOME+Gnome3 PPA to find the differences and whether one works better for our uses than the other, etc. <roasted> Both he and I have experienced random lag in the activities menu with UbuntuGNOME 13.04 + Gnome3 PPA, where we would type something like, firefox... but it'd be firef(3-4 second lag)ox. <roasted> We're also missing battery indicator icons. <roasted> Now I understand this is a 13.04 spin so it's not finalized, but I do find it odd how in Ubuntu with the same PPA, the speed is improved (zero lag) and the battery icon is there. <roasted> Is this some sort of bug that I should report or am I sounding like a broken record player where you guys heard this all before and it's an active issue being worked on? <jbicha> roasted: Ubuntu and Ubuntu GNOME are the same, Ubuntu GNOME just installs different packages by default (ubuntu-gnome-desktop) and has some different default settings (ubuntu-gnome-default-settings) <roasted> jbicha: so does it strike you as odd that more than 1 user has experienced the identical lag symptoms on UbuntuGNOME + Gnome PPA that does not exist with Ubuntu + Gnome PPA? <jbicha> roasted: my instinct is that it is a coincidence <roasted> jbicha: I find it a little strange that I duplicated it on two systems here and another user some 1,200 miles away managed to follow the same steps and ran into it. <roasted> Just my 2c. <jbicha> there's a general lag problem, perhaps mozjs17 helps <roasted> I don't understand what you mean by that jbicha <jbicha> there is a lag problem and I don't think it matter whether you have Ubuntu + gnome-shell or Ubuntu GNOME <roasted> Oh, I see what you mean. <roasted> I don't know, I found it to be rather cut and dry since I've done a dozen installs of Ubuntu vs UbuntuGNOME in the last week. <jbicha> a new version of the mozjs library may help with that problem but it's a bit late for that to show up in the regular Ubuntu repositories <roasted> well, that's depressing. <jbicha> I think we'll use it in the GNOME3 PPA though <roasted> I wonder if there's SOMETHING else that could explain it. <roasted> Like I said, UbuntuGNOME... lag... Ubuntu... no lag. <phunyguy> same here. <roasted> It's not that the lag is so bad it's unusable, but it's consistent enough to make me wonder if I should hop back on Ubuntu and PPA it over. <roasted> jbicha: meet my 1,200 mile coincidence. :P <phunyguy> hello! <phunyguy> is it 1200 miles? <phunyguy> probably so. <roasted> Michigan, no? <phunyguy> zoinks no <phunyguy> Georgia/Florida <roasted> 900 <phunyguy> probably closer to 800 <roasted> apologies. :D <phunyguy> yeah <roasted> nice, gnome-clocks is fixed :D :D :D <roasted> no battery indicator quite yet tho. :P <roasted> I also had to do a hard reboot on my laptop. Since then I haven't experienced the lag I mentioned earlier. derp?? <roasted> Is there an alternative way to get into system settings > brightness and lock? brightness and lock is crashing system settings each time I open it, but I'd like to adjust my timeout on my screen going black since it's currently at one minute... <jbicha> roasted: I don't think so, we need to patch gsettings-desktop-schemas to restore the schemas that gnome-control-center 3.6 uses <roasted> jbicha: I see. Have you by chance seen the birghtness and lock issue I'm speaking of? <jbicha> yes <roasted> sounds good :) <dupondje> Empathy is not working here, can't edit accounts, nor it shows contacts <dupondje> but it connects, and I can respond in chats <dupondje> and it works perfect in Unity ... <roasted> dupondje: 13.04? <sary> Salutations! <roasted> hello! <dupondje> roasted: yep <roasted> dupondje: I noticed I had to nuke my empathy accounts and re-add them (I retained my /home dir when I did the fresh install). After that they operated fine. <dupondje> roasted: I tried removing them yet :s <dupondje> its just gui that is borked <roasted> what GUI? <roasted> empathy or gnome? <dupondje> empathy <sary> I've successfully upgraded from 12.04 to 13.04, is it okay to install ubuntu-gnome metapackages! are there any known issue i should know about ? <roasted> have you considered removing and purging empathy and re-installing it? <dupondje> roasted: already did :( <roasted> or perhaps nuking the empathy data folder within your home dir? <roasted> empathy has its own folder within ~/.config <dupondje> tried removing empathy and removing files in .config etc <dupondje> but no help <dupondje> its strange it works perfectly in Unity imo <roasted> do other messengers such as pidgin work okay? <dupondje> did not try yet <roasted> just a thought <roasted> I mean empathy working in unity is a huge +1 that it's something with Gnome, but if you can get another messenger to work on Gnome (I would think) it would further solidify that theory. <sary> hi there roasted , dupondje :) <roasted> hi <sary> dupondje: what it you run emapthy in terminal ! <sary> it/s/if <dupondje> sary: no output <roasted> sary: are you on 13.04? <dupondje> I just get "No contacts online" ... <dupondje> (empathy:12525): folks-WARNING **: Failed to reach quiescence normally (1 backends and 0 persona stores still haven't reached quiescence). Forcing IndividualAggregator quiescence due to reaching the timeout. <dupondje> (empathy:12525): empathy-CRITICAL **: empathy-utils.c:569: empathy_account_manager_get_accounts_connected called before AccountManager ready <sary> roasted: Cheah! :) <dupondje> (empathy:12525): empathy-CRITICAL **: empathy-utils.c:569: empathy_account_manager_get_accounts_connected called before AccountManager ready <dupondje> I get this after some time ... <roasted> sary: can you go into system settings and select brightness and lock? Does that crash system settings for you? <sary> roasted: sure thing , hold up .. <sary> roasted: no issue at all, both function properly! <roasted> Do you have any PPAs installed? <sary> nope. <roasted> so you're on 3.6 then? <roasted> sary: brightness and lock crashes for me instantly when I click on it (and only it... other functions in sys settings work fine). I'm on 13.04, Gnome3 PPA, 3.7.92 <guest-pNHnt1> Back, Sary here .. <roasted> sary: brightness and lock crashes for me instantly when I click on it (and only it... other functions in sys settings work fine). I'm on 13.04, Gnome3 PPA, 3.7.92 <roasted> :) <guest-pNHnt1> roasted: you're absolutely right , a minute or so after adjusting brightness and lock on/off , the whole desktop hangs! <roasted> my desktop doesn't hang. It just crashes system settings. <roasted> like if I select brightness and lock, it disappears as if I just ALT F4'd it <guest-pNHnt1> but, here is the cach .. i'm on a guest session and the issue didn't occur .. yet! <cmatheson> hey speaking of empathy not working, if i try to connect to my personal jabber server all my accounts die (otherwise gmail and facebook connect fine) <cmatheson> a notification pops up that says "internal error" <cmatheson> this is running gnome 3.6 on 13.04 (i just ppa-purged 3.7 though) <guest-pNHnt1> ah! thene i think we should check and investigate ./sessions-errors for a start. <guest-pNHnt1> dupondje: excuse me , i've missed your empathy output .. BRB. <roasted> guest-pNHnt1: are you on a laptop? <guest-pNHnt1> roasted: correct. <roasted> guest-pNHnt1: do you have a battery indicator in the top right? <guest-pNHnt1> roasted: nope! <roasted> :( <guest-pNHnt1> wait , but am on the guest session still. <guest-pNHnt1> BRB. <roasted> testing <dupondje> ok, removed cache folder or folks <dupondje> and now it seems to work somehow <dupondje> except MSN <roasted> this brightness thing is driving me insane <roasted> if only my brightness was set to turn off monitor every 10 minutes I wouldn't care. But it's set to 1 minute and auto crashes itself so I can't change it. AHH <atrus> roasted: can you change it with dconf-editor? i think that's in org.gnome.setting-daemon.plugins.power <roasted> atrus: hmm, how would I navigate to that within dconf? <atrus> just by clicking the [+] boxes <roasted> well yeah, but I'm not sure which one in particular. <roasted> oh I got it <roasted> I didn't realize each . separated a new drop down <roasted> ahh thank you atrus :) :) :) <roasted> it'll make this issue not seem so insanely obnoxious right now <sary> Back. <sary> dupondje: on my user session , empathy connect o accounts normaly. <sary> perhaps, your system is missing one of the protocol support connection packages! <sary> " Telepathy " .. that is. <sary> i think we might've gone offtopic here , #ubuntu+1 it is . <darkxst> jbicha, can you upload updated cogl http://pastebin.com/N5A2tCap <jbicha> darkxst: yes, it will probably wait in the queue until thursday's beta release though <jbicha> how about you open a bug and request a sponsor though? <darkxst> jbicha, yes I could, but that will take ages <jbicha> darkxst: if it doesn't get sponsored by Thursday or Friday, ping me & I'll do it <darkxst> jbicha, ok <Ponch0> My software updater gets stuck on applying changes.... is there anyway to do this manually? <jbicha> darkxst: wow, gnome-shell 3.6.3 has been stuck in the SRU queue for 5 weeks :( #ubuntu-gnome 2013-04-02 <jbicha> roasted: fixed the brightness panel and the missing app lauchers (like language-selector) will be fixed shortly <darkxst> ricotz, ok to copy your mozjs17 and gjs over to gnome3-staging, as is? <roasted> nice! way to rock jbicha <roasted> I see that it's fixed on my end. This is great. <jbicha> ricotz, darkxst: oops, we're going to have to request more space if we ever want to push webkit to the staging ppa (the gnome3 ppa has space though) <roasted> doh, my laptop just gave out. <roasted> the MIA battery icon got me :P <timonti> Using 1st April build of Ubuntu Gnome, I am unable to upgrade to 3.8 <timonti> anyone here? <tyrog> Hi <tyrog> jbicha: are you there? Is the gnome3 staging ppa stable now? thanks <jbicha> tyrog: for raring, we're still in beta <tyrog> jbicha: What PPAs do you recommend for people using raring at the moment? <tyrog> The objective is to have gnome 3.8 <jbicha> I'm sure the GNOME 3.7.92/3.8 that we're using has more bugs than the 3.6.3 or whatever is in the regular Ubuntu respositories <jbicha> we recommend the GNOME3 PPA <jbicha> the GNOME3 Staging PPA is for those who like the bleeding edge and don't mind things being a bit broken <tyrog> jbicha: The normal one, staging and/or Rico's Testing PPA? <roasted> Is there a current bug for the printer dialog crashing upon adding a printer? <jbicha> the normal https://launchpad.net/~gnome3-team/+archive/gnome3/+packages?field.series_filter=raring <tyrog> only that one? <jbicha> yes <roasted> It doesn't make it sting any less that localhost:631 is refusing my credentials to log in <_< <jbicha> the ricotz testing ppa uses git snapshots which isn't what the average person needs <tyrog> jbicha: Gnome tweak tool doesn't work with that PPA enabled. Is it supposed not to? <jbicha> roasted: no idea, you're welcome to report a new bug if you can't find already reported <tyrog> jbicha: tweak tool not working. Is it still being worked on for gnome 3.8? <ricotz> tyrog, you need to provide a bit more information like that actual version while you are using several ppas "apt-cache policy gnome-tweak-tool" and pastebin the console output of running it -- 3.8.0~git20130329.30f0f84d-0ubuntu1~ suppose to work fine even without running a gnome-shell session <ricotz> i hope someone can help out here, g2g <tyrog> ricotz: Is your PPA (GNOME testing) good or better stick with gnome3 and gnome3 staging? <tyrog> I see, I'm using raring to have the latest stuff until final, it is a dual boot. I don't mind having some breakage here and there <tyrog> I just want to know if your PPA provides added value to the gnome3 staging ppa. Thanks <ricotz> tyrog, if you are using ricotz/testing, also better use gnome3/gnome3-staging <ricotz> with gnome3/gnome3 too of course <tyrog> ricotz: Not using ricotz (yet). But should I use it even after Ubuntu 13.04 is officially released? <ricotz> tyrog, as jbicha said it is more bleeding edge and doesnt fit the needs for everyone <tyrog> ricotz: Its the only way to get Gnome 3.8 in Ubuntu 12.10 for example. So you'd consider it safe for users with 12.10 who want to use Gnome shell 3.8? <ricotz> tyrog, it will get 3.9.x snapshots soon <ricotz> tyrog, it is not safe for everyone, things are likely to be broken <ricotz> alright, i really need to go, bye <jbicha> darkxst: did you test gnome-shell before uploading? <darkxst> jbicha, yes <darkxst> why? what is broken? <jbicha> darkxst: I hadn't uploaded sooner because I ran into https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=696981 <ubot5> Gnome bug 696981 in general "many keyboard shortcuts stopped working with 3.8.0 on Ubuntu" [Normal,Unconfirmed] <darkxst> jbicha, I hit that a couple of weeks ago <darkxst> but then it disappeared <jbicha> darkxst: oh, things work ok with your upload #ubuntu-gnome 2013-04-03 <roasted> What would make Nautilus open with hidden files visible by default? <roasted> anybody offhand know what to run in terminal to bring up the printers dialog window? <roasted> mine is crashing immediately when I select a printer to add. I want to run it in term to see if there's an obvious error. <timonti> lpr? <timonti> cat filename > /dev/lp <roasted> I don't know what that is <timonti> check out the lp / lpr command for printing. <roasted> lp and lpr launch nothing in terminal <roasted> I'm not familiar with them at all :( <darkxst> roasted, you can get a printer panel with 'system-config-printer' <darkxst> but its not the same panel that you would get in g-c-c <roasted> installing now <roasted> it's frustrating because the printer box crashes any time I try to add a printer <roasted> do you have printers installed? <darkxst> yes, but I can't even add printers under g-c-c for some reason <roasted> what are you referencing when you say gcc <darkxst> gnome-control-center (system settings) <roasted> so if you go into system settings and click printer, then add a printer, does yours crash too? <roasted> (also, system-config-printer let me add the printer successfully without issue) <darkxst> 'add' and 'unlock' are greyed out currently ;( <roasted> what's funny is... now that I added a printer via system-config-printer, I can add more in gcc - printers <roasted> I deleted the printer and re-added it in gcc <roasted> ah, but remove --purge system-config-printer-gnome and it crahses all over again in gcc <roasted> sigh <darkxst> maybe it needs that ;) <roasted> yep, reinstalled it but di dn't open it and added a printer in gcc without issue <darkxst> ok, can you file a bug <darkxst> it probably should be added to ubuntu-gnome-desktop <roasted> yeah I'm trying to find out where to post it now <roasted> alwyas so confusing imo <darkxst> 'ubuntu-bug gnome-control-center' <roasted> thanks <roasted> reported - https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-control-center/+bug/1163674 <ubot5`> Launchpad bug 1163674 in gnome-control-center (Ubuntu) "Adding a printer crashes Gnome Control Center (System Settings)" [Undecided,New] <sary> Salutations! <sary> !bug #1163651 <ubot5`> bug 1163651 in gnome-shell (Ubuntu) "Gnome shell crashed with "apport" complaining about lack of memory to automatically analyse the problem " [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1163651 <sary> jbicha: i hope you don't mind me subscribing you the this bug! <sary> this issue got me confused. <sary> I'm also thinking about uprading to 3.8 for testing , unless more debugging or a backtrace is needed for 3.6 . <darkxst> sary, wouldn't worry about that if its a one-off <darkxst> could have been anything that blew out memory usage <darkxst> ricotz, hi <darkxst> ok to copy these into staging? https://launchpad.net/~darkxst/+archive/js17 <darkxst> g-s just has the periodic GC patch <darkxst> and gnome-sushi is just a rebuild against gjs+js17 <ricotz> darkxst, hi, yeah, do that <ricotz> make sure the gnome-sushi version is higher than the gnome3 ppa one <ricotz> and fix the gnome-shell changelog <darkxst> oh, what happened to the newline, I wonder! <darkxst> ricotz, also there are a whole bunch of bugs that appear when systemd is installed, but none of the gnome stuff is built against it (g-s just has runtime detection) <darkxst> maybe we should explicitly break that, if we are not going to use it <darkxst> for example lock screen will break if gdm and accountsservice aren't built with systemd <darkxst> (logind) <darkxst> gnome-control-center can't 'unlock' anything <darkxst> nautilus can't mount gvfs drives <darkxst> I guess the list goes on and on, and this is all in the archives now (just not installed by default) <ricotz> darkxst, the systemd package was very in flux and settled now, so it would be fine to look into using it <ricotz> darkxst, but some problem might be caused due not syncing with ubuntu again <ricotz> e.g. gdm doesnt include the latest raring changes <ricotz> unlocking things in g-c-c seems to work here <ricotz> so are gvfs mount in nautilus <darkxst> ricotz, do you have libpam-systemd installed? <ricotz> darkxst, no <darkxst> try install that, and see all the bugs <darkxst> all of which go away once I install my logind packages from my ppa <ricotz> ok <darkxst> I think it comes down to a combination of run-time detection and packages build explicitly without systemd/logind <ricotz> probably <darkxst> and actually logind works really well from my testing, provided dbus/polkit (from pitti ppa) and the few things in my ppa, are build against it <roasted> hello friends <roasted> anybody having their entire GUI crash when they open Nautilus for a 2nd time on 13.04 with Gnome3 PPA? +1-226-633-4109 * ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-gnome to: Ubuntu GNOME Development & Support | Our first release, 12.10, is out! Download from http://is.gd/A56KP8 | Help us test Beta 2 Candidates: http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/264/builds | Pastes to http://paste.ubuntu.com | https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-gnome <camelinahat> I see the downloads section on the beta2 builds, but there's no download to be had? Would the download be the same as the daily-build from the April 2nd? <roasted> Duplicated the crash on a Macbook Pro with both OSS Nouvea driver + Proprietary Nvidia driver, along with a separate ultrabook with Intel GPU. Filing bug now. <roasted> new finding - it only happens if Nautilus is the only active window. hmm. <roasted> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-shell/+bug/1164086 <ubot5> Launchpad bug 1164086 in gnome-shell (Ubuntu) "Gnome Shell non-recoverable crash when opening Nautilus more than once." [Undecided,New] <jbicha> camelinahat: I just asked in #ubuntu-release so it's being worked on <camelinahat> jbicha: Awesome thanks. I know in my virtual machine when I installed the daily build from yesterday, then installed the gnome3 ppa, gdm failed to completely load (it would show the background but not progress any further). I wanted to try the beta2 build and see what kind of details I can get before saying too much. But it was after a clean install. <jbicha> camelinahat: did you use dist-upgrade? I've heard of several people that didn't do that who had problems <camelinahat> jbicha: Nope. Downloaded the daily image. Erased entire disk during install. once installed did sudo apt-get update/update. Then added the gnome3 ppa (not staging). Another update/upgrade and gdm doesn't complete loading after reboots <jbicha> camelinahat: ok, you need to use sudo apt-get dist-upgrade after adding the GNOME3 PPA <camelinahat> jbicha: Hmm okay I'll give that a try too. Thanks. <camelinahat> jbicha: Thanks that seems to have corrected it. <roasted> if I put the gnome3 ppa on a 12.10 box would I get past gnome 3.6? <camelinahat> roasted: Nope. See: https://launchpad.net/~gnome3-team/+archive/gnome3?field.series_filter=quantal (You'll just get more complete 3.6) <roasted> thanks. I'll just have to be patient. I'm loving 3.7+ but everyday in 13.04 in hitting a new bug. :P <sary> roasted: :) you got that right ... <sary> !bug #1163651 <ubot5> bug 1163651 in gnome-shell (Ubuntu) "Gnome shell crashed with "apport" complaining about lack of memory to automatically analyse the problem " [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1163651 <sary> roasted: gnome 3.8 for Raring , #see : https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-gnome/msg00273.html , http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2121738 <roasted> those additional ppas are a little scary considering I'm working with my work laptop.... :P <sary> roasted: in your case, sure thing .. i just added those ppa's on this testing machine, doing apt-get update , upgrade , dist-upgrade .. lets see how ot goes. <sary> Going,goin .. not yet! <roasted> sary: how's it working? <sary> roasted: the upgrade process is still going .. <roasted> ah <roasted> sary: do you have a batter indicator? <roasted> battery, rather. <sary> unpacking and installing .. <roasted> I haven't had a battery icon on any system since 3.6. I almost feel ike it's an add-on package that I'm forgetting or something. <sary> Going,going ... <sary> Gone! <roasted> you're fully updated? <roasted> 3.8 on 12.10? <sary> Back. <sary> Kaboom! wlah! <roasted> how's it working? <sary> roasted: i went smoth and successfully! ;) <roasted> you're on 12.10 with 3.8? <sary> i/is/it <sary> That's right. <roasted> do you have a battery indicator? <sary> No! <roasted> and you're on a laptop? <sary> Yes. <sary> Hold up .. <roasted> what's up with the battery indicator <darkxst> roasted, perhaps its not finding your battery <roasted> darkxst: on 5 different laptops? <darkxst> roasted, I have a battery indicator here <roasted> are you on 13.04 with Gnome3 PPA? <darkxst> roasted, yes + staging <roasted> I wonder if staging brought it back. <roasted> I'm only running Gnome3 <roasted> I haven't seen a battery indicator since the 3.6 days <darkxst> roasted, looks like dbus interface was renamed <darkxst> probably it will work if you install gnome-settings-daemon via staging <roasted> or, if I just add staging itself? <darkxst> roasted, yeh thats what I meant <roasted> let me try that. I can always ppa-purge it <sary> roasted: I forgo to mention that my laptop battery is is dead, and it's running on AC power . <sary> http://imgur.com/DSxNw1N <roasted> you're missing the battery icon... <sary> so, this internal error i got .. is about evolution-calender-factory .. should i report it! <darkxst> sary, yeh <sary> darkxst: okay. <sary> darkxst: negative regarding " gnome-settings-daemon " #see http://imgur.com/7XYrIZc <roasted> woooooo! staging brought back my battery indicator! <sary> Yay! <sary> !bug #1164204 <ubot5> Error: Launchpad bug 1164204 could not be found <sary> oh! it's marked as private. <roasted> staging didn't fix my nautilus crash though :( https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-shell/+bug/1164086 <ubot5> Launchpad bug 1164086 in gnome-shell (Ubuntu) "Gnome Shell non-recoverable crash when opening Nautilus more than once." [Undecided,New] <roasted> but it's nice seeing my battery charge <roasted> brightness and lock missing all together from system settings. <roasted> sigh, alright. 12.10 and 3.6, here we come. <darkxst> sary you probably need to logout and back in again <darkxst> roasted, brightness and lock was removed <roasted> why <darkxst> those settings have been moved to different panels <roasted> oh <roasted> I searched for brightness and "power" was the only thing highlighted. <darkxst> lock is under privacy <darkxst> brightness under power <roasted> I have no brightness under power... <sary> I do have both. <roasted> maybe it's just my macbook. <roasted> I'll add staging to my toshiba and see. <roasted> nice, software center is crashing on startup on my toshiba. <sary> looks like there are few changes in 3.8, but overall it's an amazing improvements. <roasted> 3.8 is really nice <roasted> but there's enough show stopping bugs to make me go back on certain systems of importance <darkxst> roasted, http://askubuntu.com/questions/244853/brightness-controls-dont-work-on-macbook-stuck-on-high-nvidia-geforce-9400m <sary> roasted: lucky you, how did you got ubuntu on your Macbook! i've been strugling for 2 weeks in a row to have a dual boot on my Mac! <roasted> sary: I am dual booting. <roasted> refit <roasted> install that on the Mac <roasted> on the OSX side of the Mac, rather <roasted> I have a 256GB SSD.. I put 50GB as OSX, installed OSX 10.8, left the rest unallocated, and then installed Ubuntu behind it <sary> nice ;) <sary> http://askubuntu.com/questions/274478/how-to-create-an-ubuntu-bootable-usb-drive-in-mac-os-x <sary> i couldn't even pass step one .. <sary> do you mind walking me through this! <sary> i know it might be off-topic here , but am sure the kind folks here will pass this :) <darkxst> sary try unetbootin <roasted> I added the x11 entry for the macbook <roasted> rebooted <roasted> now I can't get a GUI, and recovery mode from the BIOS screen locks up <roasted> linux on this macbook has been the most problematic thing ever <roasted> at least, dual booting. I've had linux on 100% of the HDD on iMacs and they've been absolutely fine <sary> darkxst: I thought about that, but on Unetbootin website it's stated that the tool will only boot on PC's not mac's . <darkxst> oh <sary> I've also tried with another GUI tool linux for mac .. didn't work . <sary> I'm just not quite sure what am doing wrong to dd the iso on mac! i mean i managed to dd ubuntu 12.04 on the exact mac to the same usb drive .. and this is how i got ubuntu installed on this old Dell laptop. <sary> and it's also mentioned that the start up creater won't make a bootable usb stick either. #ubuntu-gnome 2013-04-04 <sary> roasted: which macbook modle, and have you tried swiching to refind .. as it has lots of improvements as mentioned in http://www.rodsbooks.com/refind/getting.html <roasted> mid 2010 <roasted> I'm not even sureit's worth it. Having a hybrid partition table is kind of a mess anyway <sary> right , see: http://www.rodsbooks.com/ubuntu-efi/ <sary> I use to hear alot of people use to get it woking fine in the past. <roasted> I'm sure if I do a regular install of Ubuntu on the Mac it'll work great. I have an iMac at work with only Ubuntu and it's great. <roasted> but I've heard people say before with having OSX and Ubuntu on one disk, the differences of the partition table layout is a hot mess <sary> Nice. <phunyguy> roasted, I am going to try this on my mac <phunyguy> to see if it is inteed sometthing with my laptop. <phunyguy> indeed* <roasted> I managed to get into the recovery shell of another kernel and removed everything in xorg.conf <roasted> now I'm booted up but without brightness controls again <roasted> why is apple gear such a bummer <phunyguy> mine works great with buntu <roasted> is it JUST ubuntu? <phunyguy> not yet <phunyguy> lol <roasted> any apple device I've dual booted has been extremely problematic <roasted> any apple device I've put only linux on has been as problem-free as a regular system <phunyguy> oh right <sary> roasted: could it be your Graphics card drive! <phunyguy> yeah this wont be dual boot <roasted> sary: sure, but it's nvidia - nvidia has been good <roasted> in my experience <sary> roasted: see if there is driver updates for your chipset , from additional drivers. <roasted> sary: I did, I had them installed. <sary> i hope this upgrade to gnome 3.8 solve these last carshes i had, because there is a driver-updates for my nvidia card , which i think these wholes crashes is related to. <roasted> what whole crashes? <sary> roasted: good to know then. <sary> I have 6 bug reborted in 5 days! <roasted> I've reported 3 in 2 days <roasted> :( <phunyguy> I've reported 3 in a year and they aren't fixed. <phunyguy> good luck <sary> there you go .. <roasted> one that I reported the other day was fixed within 2 days <roasted> take that phunyguy <phunyguy> pfft <phunyguy> your bugs are easy <phunyguy> I find the good ones <sary> tahah :) <sary> I subscribed few developers on some of the reports :D <sary> there is a Mactel project, but it looks dead! <phunyguy> someone please highlight me <roasted> phunyguy: nevar <phunyguy> danke <phunyguy> no tray icon for quassel in all but kubuntu <phunyguy> :-/ <phunyguy> (and gnome3) <roasted> tray icon in the notification menu? <phunyguy> yeah. and xfce doesnt have a notification menu <phunyguy> none there either <sary> roasted: see #3 https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-control-center/+bug/1020373 <ubot5> Launchpad bug 1020373 in gnome-control-center (Ubuntu) "Brightness control not working on Ubuntu 12.04(mac)" [Undecided,Confirmed] <sary> roasted: another interesting one .. https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/hal/+bug/206921 <ubot5> Launchpad bug 206921 in HAL "MacBook brightness adjustment does not work in Hardy" [Medium,Fix released] <sary> roasted: see if you can change the brightness in the NVIDIA X Server Settings. <sary> roasted: have you tried a similar method as answer (5) here http://askubuntu.com/questions/76081/brightness-not-working-after-installing-nvidia-driver <roasted> I just went back to the nouveau driver and brightness controls are working. <sary> good thinkin on you part. <roasted> well <roasted> not sure about that <roasted> I forgot why I went to the nvidia driver until I was back on nouveau <roasted> it seems as if with relative ease I can trigger GS to crash <roasted> but I wasn't able to get GS to crash on nvidia <roasted> but I have 0 brightness control on nvidia. gah. <roasted> Does the Gnome3 PPA work fo rMint? <roasted> I'm tempted to fire up a Mint/Gnome3 box for some comparisons. <camelinahat> Morning folks. <camelinahat> jbicha: Any more word from ubuntu-releases on the beta 2 download links? Is it potentially due to the oversized warning? <camelinahat> Hmm no not the overside as UbuntuKylin also has oversized warnings but their download links are appearing <jbicha> camelinahat: use http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-gnome/daily-live/current/ <camelinahat> jbicha: Yeah that's what I had figured, just wanted to make sure. Is that beta 2, or just a Canidate for beta 2? <jbicha> camelinahat: it's still a candidate, we need those testcases completed before official release of the beta <camelinahat> Ah gotcha. How many completed do you need? Or just one of each test case? <jbicha> I think it's a minimum of 1 completion per test case <camelinahat> Perfect. And finally just to confirm using a virtual machine to run the tests on is acceptable yes? <jbicha> camelinahat: yes, the tests are mostly just testing installability <camelinahat> Hrm... jbicha One interesting note is that I have that image currently installed (the Ubuntu Gnome 13.04 daily build from April 2nd). So I'm going through the 'Install (erase entire disk)' test case right now. And it says "Erase Ubuntu Raring Ringtail and reinstall" rather than specifically saying Ubuntu Gnome. That a bug to file with the installer package? <jbicha> camelinahat: I think there are some wording issues with the installer (for instance it says Ubuntu-GNOME instead of Ubuntu GNOME in several places) <jbicha> but we're past UI Freeze so as long as it's not a very big problem I'd rather wait until next cycle <jbicha> if you do it now, it would need a UIFE (and still is too late for this Beta) https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FreezeExceptionProcess#UserInterfaceFreeze_Exceptions <camelinahat> No wasn't anything major I saw, and in this case is may be more unique were Ubuntu GNOME was already installed and I'm erasing and reinstalling. <jbicha> camelinahat: are you testing 32bit or 64? <camelinahat> 64-bit at the moment.. well it's pretty much completed but I have to upload a hardware profile <jbicha> camelinahat: could you log in to the qa tracker and mark the testcases you're working on as "In progress"? <camelinahat> Done <jbicha> I don't think the hardware profile is mandatory <roasted> hello friends <camelinahat> jbicha: Oh I see. I know the U+1 wiki for iso testing QA says they want it to report a pass or a fail. (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/U+1/iso-testing-qa#Step_2:_Hardware_Profile) so I was just going by that <roasted> Anybody having their entire GUI crash by opening Nautilus with no other windows open on 13.04 with Gnome3? <jbicha> ok, i386 testcases are almost done, we have a few more amd64 ones though <camelinahat> jbicha: I just completed the entire disk with lvm and encryption (much slower than a standard install haha) <camelinahat> About to do the 'live session' test since the bug listed has been fixed (the links are now displayed) <jbicha> live session failed here on i386 the second time I booted the image :( <roasted> currently purging Gnome3 PPA so to see if my problems are 13.04/beta related or PPA related. <roasted> well Nautilus is not crashing my system each time I open it on +1-226-633-4109. Def Gnome3 PPA related. <roasted> and I have a battery indicator! :) :) :) :) :) <camelinahat> I'm going to have to delay the Live Session one for the time being, so I deleted my 'in progress' for now. (Work) <jbicha> camelinahat: thanks for the help <camelinahat> jbicha: I'm glad to help out as best I can :) <darkxst> roasted, do you have nautilus doing desktop icons? <roasted> darkxst, no <darkxst> roasted, does apport catch the crash? can you get a backtrace? <roasted> it does the same thing regardless <roasted> I filed a bug on it <roasted> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1164086 <ubot5`> Launchpad bug 1164086 in gnome-shell (Ubuntu) "Gnome Shell non-recoverable crash when opening Nautilus more than once." [Undecided,New] <roasted> I think the fact it crashes twice in one minute is why it won't recover <darkxst> roasted, need a backtrace to see what is going on, if it triggers an apport(ubuntu-bug) dialog, then click "examine locally" <darkxst> and there will be an option to generate a symbolic stacktrace of the crash <roasted> can I get that to you later ? I'm on my phone now but I'd love to help <darkxst> roasted, sure <roasted> hi, sorry about that <roasted> I actually disabled apport because it comes up every 2 freakin minutes :P <roasted> but when I filed the bug I filed it against ubuntu-bug gnome-shell <roasted> let me reenable it and crash it <roasted> actually on this laptop apport is 1, so it should be enabled <roasted> darkxst: just had it crash - no apport message. <roasted> darkxst: are you on 13.04 with Gnome3 PPA enabled and on +1-226-633-4109? I've found this SUPER easy to replicate. <darkxst> yeh, I just reproduced it <roasted> at least it's not me being crazy <roasted> feel free to bump a comment on that bug report that you saw it too :P <roasted> I'm surprised I'm not hearing more people complaining about it. Nautilus is what I spend a truckload of time in, so it's often the FIRST thing I open - which is exactly when this bug lands. <darkxst> roasted, see I am safe then, terminal is the first thing I usually open ;) <roasted> terminal is often the 2nd thing I open :P <roasted> I do a truckload of SSH work, but I'm currently testing some sync clients for owncloud and whatnot, so I open nautilus to make sure things come across as I expect. <phillw> hey, my memory isn't that bad after all :)
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