#ubuntu-tv 2011-11-03 <jussi> popey: you probably want to remove the VO from your flags, so you dont get auto opped everythime you join <willcooke> Hi folks! <willcooke> Thanks popey for setting this up for me <popey> np * jussi bans willcooke :P <willcooke> :( <jussi> nah, just kidding <jussi> willcooke: tell me how to tar a dir from the cli. Im tired and the man page is doing my head in <willcooke> tar -cvjf foo.tar.bz2 dir/* <jussi> thanks! <willcooke> :D <willcooke> caveat: I haven't tested that <willcooke> it might not, and probably wont, work <willcooke> oh, an I assumed you want to compress it, which you might not want to. "j" will create bz2 and "z" will create gz <jussi> it appears to have works, lets see how we go #ubuntu-tv 2011-11-17 <khameis42> hi #ubuntu-tv 2011-11-22 <dmj726> hi will :) <Wellark> hi! :) <MrChrisDruif> Aloha willcooke and the rest <Wellark> hi <MrChrisDruif> How's it going here? <Wellark> pretty quiet it seems right now <MrChrisDruif> Yeah, but I didn't hear about this channel untill today <willcooke> Hello guys, MrChrisDruif <willcooke> Wellark, hi <willcooke> sorry I was OTP <MrChrisDruif> On The Potty? <willcooke> XD <willcooke> phone! <MrChrisDruif> Can't be, Ubuntu still got to release one of those ;-) <MrChrisDruif> When I typed it, I thought I should be phone, but still...for the lulz I typed potty <MrChrisDruif> Anyhow, what did you guys think of Thomas his mail? <MrChrisDruif> And the others ofx <MrChrisDruif> ofc* <willcooke> Hi again all, back from meetings.... <tgm4883> o/ hello room <willcooke> Hi tgm4883 <tgm4883> Hi willcooke <tgm4883> meetings, bleh :( <willcooke> hehe <willcooke> So, you know what... I'm slightly surprised at how most people are of the opinion that 3d is not very important. I thought I was in the minority with my opinion of 3d being "Meh" <tgm4883> I think it has to do with needing new hardware, needing to buy glasses for everyone, and then even after spending all that money all you get is "hey, those mountains look a little bit farther than they used to" <willcooke> tgm4883, thank you for your email by the way. Very interesting. I'd like to take a bit of time to properly digest it and write a decent reply... <dmj726> It's probably important to support playback at some point <tgm4883> willcooke, yea sorry about the long wall of text, we never did get a chance to meet up again at UDS <dmj726> even if I don't personally care about it most times <willcooke> dmj726, Where are we with capable graphics cards? Do they exist? <tgm4883> 3d graphics cards exist <willcooke> tgm4883, UDS was HARD work. So many people! <tgm4883> nvidia has some, I would assume AMD does as well <dmj726> we should use the right terminology here: We're talking about *stereoscopy* * willcooke isn't down with the lingo <willcooke> the one where you have to wear stupid glasses. <dmj726> which is when you get a 3D effect by having each eye see a slightly different image <willcooke> yeah, that one <willcooke> What's the alternative? <willcooke> Is it that thing that R2D2 can do with the projection? <dmj726> There are a number of diferent ways to indicate depth, but that's the one we call 3D <willcooke> I guess that's the accepted standard now <dmj726> simply moving the camera side to side, having objects grow smaller in the distance are all cues the brain uses even in "2D" films <willcooke> right, I'm with you <willcooke> Yes, when I say 3D I'm talking stereoscopic <dmj726> just saying there's more to 3D (think how game engines manage it) than stereoscopy, but stereoscopy is our subject here <willcooke> it is <tgm4883> what would be required to support 3d? Just the ability to turn off the second picture? (by extension, support for a second stream of video) <tgm4883> Honestly I think 3D is further down the list <willcooke> I /think/ some devices just display the two pictures side by side on the same frame and then the TV itself does the magic <imnichol> tgm4883: are you Thomas Mashos? <imnichol> Oh, belay that, just saw the bottom of your latest email <tgm4883> imnichol, yes <tgm4883> :) <tgm4883> rhpot1991, ! <tgm4883> rhpot1991 is on the Mythbuntu team as well <rhpot1991> hi <tgm4883> imnichol, yea that was a bit of a longwinded email <tgm4883> I expect it to take a little while to get a reply or two <imnichol> I was just wondering about your first email on the list: do you have a reason for not wanting Unity? <imnichol> It seems like you think it's not ontrollable by remote? <imnichol> Am I correct or did I miss something? <imnichol> Note: I don't care one way or the other, I'm just curious. <tgm4883> I don't think it would fit well on a TV. By that I mean the desktop in general <tgm4883> You want a 10 foot UI for the TV, and I don't think Unity in it's currently form fits that <tgm4883> now you could take a 10 foot UI and theme it to look similar to Unity <tgm4883> Note: I actually like Unity and use it on my desktop and netbook <imnichol> Hahah <MrChrisDruif> Aloha tgm4883 <tgm4883> Hi MrChrisDruif <MrChrisDruif> I've read your message in the list <imnichol> Ok, I think I can get what you're saying. <MrChrisDruif> And I agree on a lot of the points <tgm4883> when you go TV, you need to scale everything up a bit <MrChrisDruif> Indeed 10' interface <imnichol> But I'm still a little unclear what you mean when you say that its current form doesn't fit <tgm4883> TV's are like texas, everything is larger <imnichol> Like the icon bar in the upper right? <MrChrisDruif> But it doesn't necessarily mean we'd have to use XBMC <imnichol> But unlike texas, we aren't trying to execute people with our TVs <imnichol> ;) <willcooke> XD <tgm4883> Right, XBMC was an example. I suggest we use something that has already been developed and can be fitted for our needs. I really don't want to see yet another media centre startup <MrChrisDruif> We could, but it has to have some serious theming love <tgm4883> there are way too many as there is <MrChrisDruif> Does anybody remember Linux MCE? <imnichol> What's wrong with a media center setup? <tgm4883> imnichol, Unity is a great desktop, but for a tv interface it is needing to be controlled by a remote control (IR probably), and then you have a bunch of wasted space <tgm4883> imnichol, media center startup, not setup. Being with Mythbuntu, I keep my eye on this and every so often a new group of developers will try to recreate a media center from scratch. I guess that is the open source way though <imnichol> OH ok I gotcha <imnichol> And yeah I agree about the remote thing <tgm4883> Sometimes it's a good idea, and things get better <tgm4883> other times it is just because someone didn't like the design of other media centers, and it's irrelevant <imnichol> Those are some good arguments <tgm4883> MrChrisDruif, personally I think the XBMC theming engine has some good features <imnichol> I assume we're all also on the ubuntu-phone mailing list? <tgm4883> I'm not <MrChrisDruif> imnichol; I am at least <tgm4883> although I think there are probably a lot of similarities between the two (tv and phone) <tgm4883> Linux MCE is a heavily modified MythTV frontend <imnichol> There's been some discussion on the ubuntu-phone list about using phones to control the tvs <imnichol> And I presume that tablets could do the same thing <tgm4883> imnichol, I do that already :) <MrChrisDruif> Yeah, and more <MrChrisDruif> I like some features that LinuxMCE apparently has, like controlling the lighting in your house <tgm4883> MrChrisDruif, there is a lot of hardware that is necessary for that <MrChrisDruif> Yeah, but still the option to do so <tgm4883> home automation is something that we should consider though, I think it should be low priority though <MrChrisDruif> Just some checkmark somewhere that you have that kind of hardware <MrChrisDruif> First of indeed, but when the "basics" are done we should consider it <tgm4883> MrChrisDruif, the issue is there isn't really a standard used to control that <MrChrisDruif> Either here or the entire platform ;-) <MrChrisDruif> tgm4883; the problem there are MULTIPLE standards used ;-) <MrChrisDruif> +is <tgm4883> MrChrisDruif, well yes. Multiple standards == no standards :) <MrChrisDruif> -s <tgm4883> And that is just for lighting <tgm4883> you could do heating, CCTV, VOIP, all which seem to have multiple standards <tgm4883> Minimally, I think lighting would be nice to have though since we are talking TV's and media centers <MrChrisDruif> That's why I mentioned it in the first place ;-) <MrChrisDruif> And after that I think VoIP? <tgm4883> VoIP or CCTV <MrChrisDruif> Easier will be CCTV ;-) <tgm4883> along with VoIP, Video calling as well <tgm4883> yes <MrChrisDruif> But concerning this project I'd say Video Conferencing <tgm4883> yes, Video conferencing would be nice and is a growing market <MrChrisDruif> (I was thinking about that instead of the "official" ViOP ;-) ) <MrChrisDruif> Euhm VoIP* <MrChrisDruif> Euhm, I was missing playback features <MrChrisDruif> Like Blu-ray doesn't work at all for me <MrChrisDruif> I've heard that can be solved with the paid fluenza codec pack, but that just one small mention somewhere <tgm4883> So that is another angle, physical media <MrChrisDruif> Yeah <callumsaunders1> Can i ask, what is UTV targeted towards? being preinstalled in a TV set or a set top box? <MrChrisDruif> I was starting to wonder that myself, if we would consider playback of physical media <tgm4883> MrChrisDruif, looks like it might, their site doesn't point out bluray <tgm4883> it does list the codecs, but I think the issue might be the encryption keys <tgm4883> callumsaunders1, not sure, I would say ideally on the TV, pre-built set-top box, and also an image you could install yourself <tgm4883> I think in order to say it is on a TV, it needs to be built into the TV, although if it was one of the small linaro units that could be attached to the TV I'd be ok with that <tgm4883> sorry, that is a freescale board, the mx53 <MrChrisDruif> Small quote from the Fluendo website about bluray playback: "We are currently not moving much in that field as BluRay has a lot of legal constraints making it very difficult for a Linux product to include it(we cannot certify it as DRM compliant). We will add support on GStreamer when libbluray and libaacs are ready for show time, so that the OpenSource players can benefit from it. Don't expect a "commercial" Linux BluRay player from F <MrChrisDruif> luendo anytime soon, though." <imnichol> Given the abilities of the raspberry pi, I imagine that there could be TVs with the computer portion built in <tgm4883> Here is an interview from UDS regarding the i.mx53 from freescale <tgm4883> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KtYAbAzJRw <MrChrisDruif> Current flatscreen tv's already have software on them <tgm4883> the size of the board is pretty tiny <tgm4883> MrChrisDruif, yea, but every time i've used the built in stuff, it's pretty slow/crappy <callumsaunders1> I can't see how UbuntuTV could work without here being an 'Ubuntu TV', if you get what i mean, time has proven that nobody wants another set top box <tgm4883> More on that board with a better image of it http://www.linaro.org/linaro-blog/2011/03/01/new-low-cost-cortex-a8-board-from-freescale/ <MrChrisDruif> tgm4883; I know, but that can all change when they might start using ARM processors i.e. <tgm4883> Note: i'm not affialiated with Linaro nor Freescale <MrChrisDruif> Like I said, ARM ;-) <tgm4883> MrChrisDruif, could be ARM, could be Atom <MrChrisDruif> Haha, Atom...a dieing race. It's got some catching-up to do <MrChrisDruif> Atom is normal x86 btw <imnichol> It seems to me that we should be eating our own dog food here <tgm4883> yes, x86 and x86-64 <MrChrisDruif> Also? <imnichol> I mean with the ARM stuff Ubuntu is starting to do <tgm4883> imnichol, unfortunatly I didn't win any of the ARM boards they gave away at UDS :( <tgm4883> That said, again I don't think it's something we should recreate from scratch. There are some perfectly capable media centers out there <tgm4883> I'd have to look more into XBMC, I've heard conflicting reports whether it would work on ARM or not <callumsaunders1> I don't thin Ubuntu TV should just be another media center <MrChrisDruif> If we want something soon, then yes. But if we want something good, well maybe we should? <imnichol> So if it's not just another media center, what is it? <tgm4883> MrChrisDruif, and that is how you start writing another media center from scratch <callumsaunders1> Even Apple have failed to do the TV thing <tgm4883> callumsaunders1, what would you like to see from it? <MrChrisDruif> callumsaunders1; it depends on what we want to achieve for TV? <tgm4883> I don't think any of us think it's going to be strictly a media center, but I don't think we would say it is a desktop either <callumsaunders1> I think that with Ubuntu getting into Tablets and phones and toilets what ever <callumsaunders1> then that will be be its biggest advantage <callumsaunders1> and all these devices should be able to play together <MrChrisDruif> True <tgm4883> callumsaunders1, sounds like you haven't read my super long email :) <MrChrisDruif> Haha, seems so <callumsaunders1> there is interesting convo going on in the ubuntu-phone mailing list about using the tv as a hub for collaboritive and social applications <tgm4883> I think we are all on the same page here :) <callumsaunders1> where is this email? <imnichol> It was yesterday on the ubuntu-tv list <tgm4883> callumsaunders1, on the Ubuntu TV mailing list <MrChrisDruif> callumsaunders1; https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-tv/msg00003.html <callumsaunders1> give me a min then :P <MrChrisDruif> There you go O=) <imnichol> lol <tgm4883> MrChrisDruif, So I guess the question is, what are we trying to achieve that isn't currently an option with the already existing media centers? <tgm4883> talking software here, not getting it on TV's <callumsaunders1> thanks for the link, tgm4883, i agree with you on practically all points <MrChrisDruif> tgm4883; it might not be creating what isn't on existing media centers, but finding a good way to put it all together in a fuss-free manner <tgm4883> callumsaunders1, thanks, I'm on the Mythbuntu team so i've been watching what people have been requesting for the last 3 years :) <callumsaunders1> Haha people are funny though, they rarely know what they want <tgm4883> MrChrisDruif, I'm not tied to any particular media center, I just don't want to recreate the wheel if we don't have to <callumsaunders1> well <callumsaunders1> what they need <tgm4883> callumsaunders1, what people need and what people want are two very different things <callumsaunders1> true <tgm4883> Mostly I listen to what people want and if it's awesome, start thinking about what it would take to make it happen <tgm4883> sometimes it pans out, sometimes it requires too much other stuff <MrChrisDruif> tgm4883; I think we should make a list of all the feature we might want implemented for a first version and see what software is most compatible? <MrChrisDruif> (I think it would be XBMC, but still) <tgm4883> MrChrisDruif, I think that is a great idea <MrChrisDruif> When do we even WANT a first release? <imnichol> Tomorrow <callumsaunders1> Not until its ready. <MrChrisDruif> I heard something in the lines of AFTER 12.04 <tgm4883> well regarding that, whatever we do, I don't think we should switch core items like that <tgm4883> especially if we make it pluggable <tgm4883> scratch that, I think pluggable is a requirement <tgm4883> MrChrisDruif, yea, it's definitly after 12.04 <tgm4883> I'm guessing 13.04 <MrChrisDruif> Alright, about a year of development <MrChrisDruif> Right? <tgm4883> willcooke or popey would probably know more ^^ * tgm4883 is unsure if there are other canonical employees in the room <MrChrisDruif> Please speak ;-) (Btw, popey you've still got voice in here ;-) ) <tgm4883> for the record, I am not employed by canonical <tgm4883> I'm just passionate about TV's :) * MrChrisDruif wants to become a canonical employee =P but that doesn't count <callumsaunders1> just a dude <imnichol> same <willcooke> Well, how long is a piece of string? I think first we need to know *what*. Then we can work out *who* and divide up the jobs. Then we'll work out *how long* by "simply" dividing one by the other. <willcooke> In my mind, it makes sense to build on an LTS though <MrChrisDruif> Haha, simply ;-) <tgm4883> willcooke, I agree with the LTS (Mythbuntu is moving to LTS only releases for similar reasons) <willcooke> MrChrisDruif, we're hiring. Check out the careers page! Loads of jobs <tgm4883> Is there somewhere we should be making a list of features? <willcooke> tgm4883, Good idea - we need a wiki page <tgm4883> we can make it here, but it should be documented somewhere for discussion before it goes in a blueprint <willcooke> We have a log bot, but I think a wiki page would be easier to maintain and follow <tgm4883> willcooke, Wiki it is, although I really liked the etherpad we used at UDS <willcooke> tgm4883, oh yeah, I hadn't even thought of that <imnichol> Problem with etherpad's is that you need rights to view them <imnichol> Or at least, I did <willcooke> well, whatever is easiest - but not IRC :) <imnichol> Agreed <willcooke> Hmmmm - I don't have an account on the Ubuntu wiki. Ooops. <imnichol> I really hate that I need to create so many different accounts. <tgm4883> Ubuntu one SSO FTW! <tgm4883> alright someone create a page, i'm going to grab a drink then we can discuss <popey> Ubuntu UK team has a public wiki. <popey> you're probably better off using that for now <popey> because the ubuntu.com one is getting some maintenance soon * popey changed the topic of #ubuntu-tv to: Welcome to #ubuntu-tv | http://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-tv | http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UbuntuTV <popey> there you go <tgm4883> ^^ Shameless plug <MrChrisDruif> Ahh, I thought you meant wiki... <imnichol> Sweet <MrChrisDruif> Now, where was that mail...*goes to inbox* <tgm4883> So we have a pretty nifty list over at http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UbuntuTV <tgm4883> If anyone wants to pop in and take a look, we're going to start ranking them * popey thinks it should be clearly labelled as a wishlist âº <popey> a community developed wishlist no-less <tgm4883> done <popey> ta <popey> don't want people wandering in and thinking this is a feature list which we've already settled on âº <tgm4883> popey, how is that? <popey> haha <popey> thats outrageous! <popey> it's 'popey' not 'Popey' <tgm4883> fixed :) <imnichol> Hey everyone! <MrChrisDruif> Aloha <tgm4883> ok, so prioritizing the items, we will discuss that here so it's logged and other people can weigh in <imnichol> Sounds good <imnichol> What's first? <tgm4883> Item 1: 10' interface <imnichol> That's like the definition of what we should be doing <callumsaunders1> I don't suppose we have any designers here? <MrChrisDruif> popey; I think you had a meeting bot lying around? <MrChrisDruif> Not professional I think callumsaunders1 <tgm4883> well I was thinking this needs to be more of a higher level discussion for prioritizing the items, not an indepth discussion about each one <tgm4883> unless that is what people want * MrChrisDruif has to go I'm afraid <MrChrisDruif> I hope someone can post the log somewhere so I can have a read back? <imnichol> I'm down for a high level discussion <popey> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/11/22/%23ubuntu-tv.html <popey> already logging <MrChrisDruif> Thanks popey =) * popey changed the topic of #ubuntu-tv to: Welcome to #ubuntu-tv | http://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-tv | http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UbuntuTV | This channel is logged to http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/ * MrChrisDruif is off <tgm4883> I mean, we can discuss how to implement a 10' interface (whether it is built from scratch or something already created) at a later time <callumsaunders1> bye <callumsaunders1> ok no problem <tgm4883> So i think the consensus of the 10' UI was ESSENTIAL, correct? <callumsaunders1> agreed <imnichol> Yes <tgm4883> ok, second item: Watching Media (DVR, Live, Network) <callumsaunders1> whats tv without it <tgm4883> also ESSENTIAL <tgm4883> exactly <tgm4883> the first two are pretty easy :) <tgm4883> both ESSENTIAL, the rest of the items we'll probably actually have to discuss <tgm4883> ok, third item - Plugin support <tgm4883> currently listed as HIGH <imnichol> When we say "plugin" what are we talking about? <imnichol> Like abiltity to extend the software capabilities? <tgm4883> yes <tgm4883> similar to the way banshee has plugins <callumsaunders1> i would rather see apps for that <tgm4883> The issue with having apps for that, is then you need a way to control that particular app <callumsaunders1> the way phones work <callumsaunders1> true. <tgm4883> callumsaunders1, I think that works for phones since you have a common expected input device <tgm4883> also, phone apps are built for that input device <callumsaunders1> i dont think plugin should be priority, i think the experience needs to be created first and then devs can add on to that <callumsaunders1> i get you <tgm4883> where as other apps aren't going to be built to be controlled by a remote control, smart phone, tablet etc <tgm4883> well thats the point, devs can't (easily) add on unless there is plugin support <imnichol> So we're agreed that plugin support is a high priority then? <callumsaunders1> go for it <imnichol> Oh wait, sorry, misread what callumsaunders1 was saying <imnichol> Sorry dude, didn't mean to stomp on you or anything <callumsaunders1> no problem <tgm4883> so high or medium? <callumsaunders1> if it'll promote development then high <tgm4883> I think it will, at the least, it could allow for third party companies to build plugins for it (eg. netflix, amazon VOD, etc) <tgm4883> I don't think that is happening without it <callumsaunders1> good stuff <tgm4883> ok, so next is - Cloud and/or server storage (for home grown media) <tgm4883> currently at HIGH <callumsaunders1> high <imnichol> Yeah <callumsaunders1> we provide this for windows <tgm4883> ok then <tgm4883> next - Playback of physical media (USB cd/dvd/bluray drive) <callumsaunders1> high <imnichol> high <imnichol> It's kind of going into set-top box territory <imnichol> But I think that it's a good added value <imnichol> Blue-ray would have to work though <imnichol> And IIRC from earlier in the conversation, that's maybe not happening so fast? <callumsaunders1> could a manufacturer add blu ray support on their own though? <callumsaunders1> i want to see a tv where you can just plug in a blur ray drive via usb and the tv handles it <callumsaunders1> oops, blu ray <callumsaunders1> blur ray would be a terrible format <imnichol> lol <imnichol> But that's a good question: if the tv runs Ubuntu, is there going to be a way for the manufacturer to add blueray support? <imnichol> And as a corellary: will it not be a sucky tacked-on pile of crap? <callumsaunders1> cant we provide it, and just allow the manufacturer to enable it <tgm4883> callumsaunders1, from a technical standpoint, the TV could provide a bluray player and then we could just control it. We would probably do LiveTV the same way <tgm4883> which is allow the TV to do the heavy lifting, and just control it and have the Ubuntu interface be an overlay <tgm4883> sorry about the delay, was called away for a quick issue <callumsaunders1> sounds good <tgm4883> Next item - Installable image <tgm4883> currently HIGH <callumsaunders1> high <tgm4883> This goes along the lines of a STB <callumsaunders1> i was thinking for testing <tgm4883> I was thinking for installing it on your own hardware, rather than purchasing pre-built systems <callumsaunders1> both are good <Wellark> willcooke: can I get one rasperry pi? It has HDMI. :) <willcooke> And h264 video acceleration <willcooke> I think the raspberry pi will be a great little video player, but I doubt it's usefulness as a "STB" - just not enough power <Wellark> I listened the UDS session recording <Wellark> someone mentioned pandaboard <Wellark> unfortunately that's pretty much a no-go <tgm4883> Wellark, have you seen the freescale i.mx53 <Wellark> because they have no predictable lead-time. I tried to get one for myself and gave up after 4 months of waiting and no news on next patch <Wellark> tgm4883: I know the board, haven't had the opportunity to play with one, yet <tgm4883> Linaro showed one off at UDS playing 1080p video beautifully <Wellark> sure, those can do that <tgm4883> callumsaunders1, imnichol next item - Easy configuration of new devices (eg. installing same plugins, mounting same network shares) <tgm4883> currently HIGH <imnichol> Yes <tgm4883> I'm thinking that could be moved to medium <Wellark> oh, sorry. you have a meeting. didn't realize. I'll shutup now <callumsaunders1> high yes <callumsaunders1> join in <callumsaunders1> Ubuntu One accounts are a prerequisite.. <tgm4883> Wellark, we're just trying to prioritize what we think features should be <tgm4883> next -Ubuntu One Accounts <tgm4883> define prerequisite? <tgm4883> Can I use the TV without Ubuntu One? <callumsaunders1> it is needed, to be able to use the cloud store <willcooke> I gotta go, I'm really excited to see things moving so quickly. Thanks guys, I'll catch you all tomorrow <Wellark> you should be able. not all TV's are connected to the internet <tgm4883> bye willcooke <Wellark> strong ubuntu one integration is very important from day-0 IMHO <tgm4883> Ok, so for Ubuntu one accounts, it's a high priority then? <callumsaunders1> I agree you shouldnt NEED an account, but to use cloud storage it is necessary <callumsaunders1> yes <tgm4883> everything that would depend on it is currently medium priority <callumsaunders1> which is why U1 needs to be there first <Wellark> Ubuntu1 is a cruzial factor of the "Unity Experience" <tgm4883> ok HIGH then <tgm4883> moving on <tgm4883> - Control from portable devices (phones/tablets/remotes) <tgm4883> currently medium <Wellark> I would leave it as is <imnichol> Wellark - any reason? <tgm4883> we should ammend this to phones/tablets, and make a separate entry for remotes that is ESSENTIAL <Wellark> you have to provide a standalone remote anyway <callumsaunders1> yes <Wellark> which should be very low-tech <Wellark> (cheap) <tgm4883> I mean, it is required to have some sort of control, but phone/tablet would be gravy <callumsaunders1> also i wouldnt rule out controlling the tv from a laptop/pc either <Wellark> sure <imnichol> Ok yeah <Wellark> but no point marking everything HIGH :) <imnichol> Good point <tgm4883> added "web interface" <callumsaunders1> hmm <tgm4883> agree, which is why I say we make "remotes" essential and leave the rest of this one as medium <tgm4883> or possibly low <callumsaunders1> i dont see the uses of it being on the web <callumsaunders1> baked into regular ubuntu <callumsaunders1> actually <callumsaunders1> being able to set it to record something rom the web would be good <Wellark> sure <tgm4883> yea <Wellark> but sounds like low <callumsaunders1> but it would have to provide a tv guide <Wellark> basically providing access to the tv guide through browser <callumsaunders1> anyone from the uk? Sky+ does this <callumsaunders1> or an app <callumsaunders1> mobile app <tgm4883> callumsaunders1, mythtv does this as well <callumsaunders1> great <callumsaunders1> so easy then <Wellark> here in finland one of the internet service providers is offering their iptv with applications to iphone and android to setup recordings remotely <tgm4883> which reminds me, I have a few things to add, but I'll wait until the end <tgm4883> actually, I have to leave in about 10 minutes <tgm4883> where did the day go? <Wellark> west.. <callumsaunders1> you are the glue that holds this meeting together! <tgm4883> heh <callumsaunders1> so ... <callumsaunders1> push media? <tgm4883> - Push media to/from other Ubuntu devices / Media syncing capabilities (Pause on one device, resume from same spot on another device) <tgm4883> Currently MEDIUM <Wellark> I would love to see that HIGH <Wellark> that's like the whole point of "smart tv" <callumsaunders1> medium is good, this is and collab devices are the gravy for me <Wellark> or smart devices <Wellark> or leave it medium <tgm4883> I think this goes hand in hand with remote controls <tgm4883> and probably requires U1 integration <tgm4883> remote controls being phone/tablet/PC <callumsaunders1> U1 would make managing allowed devices easier <tgm4883> HIGH then? <imnichol> Yeah <imnichol> That's my belif <callumsaunders1> ok <tgm4883> ok <imnichol> Meeting time, peace out everyone <tgm4883> - Collaborate with other Ubuntu devices (context: https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-phone/msg00006.html ) <tgm4883> bye imnichol <callumsaunders1> byee <Wellark> I have to go to put my son to bed. <Wellark> It's a warzone here :/ <callumsaunders1> shall we mark a point on etherpad and get back to it tomorrow? <tgm4883> callumsaunders1, sounds good to me <callumsaunders1> because i cant do this on my own! lol <tgm4883> ok, marked on the etherpad <callumsaunders1> great <tgm4883> I'm assuming this thing lives on for awhile <callumsaunders1> is there a person who owns the pad? <tgm4883> popey^^ <callumsaunders1> great <popey> nobody owns the pad <popey> daviey runs the server it's on <popey> but it's like the wiki, it's a community resource. <MrChrisDruif> (UGT) Morning <MrChrisDruif> We're going to continue prioritizing tomorrow? <MrChrisDruif> tgm4883; ? <tgm4883> MrChrisDruif, yes, we ran out of time <MrChrisDruif> What time? <tgm4883> heh, that wasn't decided. I'd assume about 9:00 AM PST, although it seems I have a meeting at that time <MrChrisDruif> Haha <MrChrisDruif> 17:00 UTC? <MrChrisDruif> Right after the Weekly Ubuntu Foundations Meeting? <MrChrisDruif> tgm4883; ^ <tgm4883> heh, I guess so <MrChrisDruif> Shall I put it on real quick and announce it on the mailing-list? <MrChrisDruif> Why do I forget to mention you every time tgm4883 ? =) <MrChrisDruif> For a weekly meeting we could best move it to Monday on the same time, right after the Ubuntu Friendly meeting (if we want to use #ubuntu-meeting, which is preferred I think) tgm4883 =) <MrChrisDruif> tgm4883; can we get this sorted? I need to go to bed =P <MrChrisDruif> Alarm goes in about 5,5 hours <MrChrisDruif> =P <MrChrisDruif> tgm4883; PING! <MrChrisDruif> <_<" <MrChrisDruif> Anyone? Wellark ? popey ? <MrChrisDruif> Well, it has to be an unannounced meeting then... #ubuntu-tv 2011-11-23 <dmj726> morning willcooke <willcooke> afternoon ;) <willcooke> how's it going? <dmj726> fine, I figured I'd let you know I was the one proposing the Control from portable devices feature, though I wasn't available on irc during the discussion yesterday <dmj726> So if you guys need any explanation about it, I'm available today :) <brk0_0> Escuse me...Can anyone tell me if the meeting will be here? <MrChrisDruif> Thanks willcooke =) <willcooke> :) <MrChrisDruif> So, in about 1,5 hours will do that priority meeting =) <MrChrisDruif> (At least, that's the plan) <MrChrisDruif> I see some more people then yesterday? <MrChrisDruif> Who's already around for the meeting? <dmj726> MrChrisDruif: me :) <dmj726> well I was here before sorta <MrChrisDruif> Yeah, I saw on the log <MrChrisDruif> You proposed the.. <MrChrisDruif> ..control from portable devices <MrChrisDruif> Apparently, but I don't think it really needs explaining, because it's pretty explanatory ;-) <dmj726> yeah, basically control via mobile devices, but it's also key to allowing applications to run well across all devices <MrChrisDruif> How do you mean? <dmj726> so video editing project runs on several tablets and the TV simultaneously <MrChrisDruif> Ahh, like that =) <dmj726> Yep, Novacut really wants to make that possible <dmj726> we suspect it will also be very good for other apps <MrChrisDruif> But that is just one project, we shouldn't focus into one that much I think <dmj726> MrChrisDruif: I'm not saying that Novacut should be tied in too much here <MrChrisDruif> =) <dmj726> Just demonstrating that building the right kind of flexibility into the system will let applications like that make UTV a better experience <callumsaunders1> I don't think any other platform can offer productivity on that sort of multidevice level <MrChrisDruif> Well, if you noted the etherpad, we have plugin-system in the high segment =) <dmj726> MrChrisDruif: Yes, though I'm wondering really what is meant by "plugin" <MrChrisDruif> dmj726; it could be "anything" right now. It's not defined at all in this stage <dmj726> I would guess that the right approach is to allow "plugins" to certain systems, perhaps via an api, plus a way to run normal applications in fullscreen mode. <MrChrisDruif> Plugins can have all sorts of functions in UTV <willcooke> Oh, how about: We publish a "remote control input" standard over HTTP and then people could use it in new and exciting ways <MrChrisDruif> Video recording, gaming, I-don't-really-care-what-other-functions-you-can-think-of ;-) <willcooke> In fact, let's not limit it to remote control <willcooke> kenvandine in the house! Hey dude! <MrChrisDruif> And he is special? <dmj726> willcooke: if we have some standard methods for input over http, that sounds good <kenvandine> yo willcooke! <dmj726> Actually very similar to how Novacut realtime collaboration works <dmj726> local databases on both devices sync in realtime <willcooke> dmj726, we could start with "Remote Control" functionality - that way people can write apps on any device <dmj726> to input to the TV you would just have the tablet make changes in the database <kenvandine> what i really want to see is state syncing for media between devices <callumsaunders1> thats on the list <dmj726> willcooke: yes, "remote control" using this system is a good way to start and provide general input <kenvandine> so watching something on my TV (online), pause it... whip out my tablet and pick up the playback :) <MrChrisDruif> willcooke; remote control (at least for remotes) is in essential ;-) <willcooke> kenvandine, yes- that will be awesome. <willcooke> dmj726, "just have the tablet make changes in the database" sounds painful. API would make more sense? <dmj726> willcooke: Then if applications want more, they can use the same system for their own use <kenvandine> and it should be content agnostic... if we can work that out <kenvandine> same for music, etc <dmj726> willcooke: this would be a sort of REST API <willcooke> dmj726, that sounds good <callumsaunders1> dmj726, are you the novacut guy? <dmj726> So the client GUI, tells the local database what changes to make <dmj726> Then the changes replicate automatically to the other databases <dmj726> The software on the TV sees the change and behaves accordingly <dmj726> callumsaunders1: I'm one of them. <MrChrisDruif> I might be a brake around here, but I think it's better to first get things prioritized? <dmj726> It sounds complicated but it actually helps simplify development in many ways. <willcooke> Sounds like we need U1DB for that <dmj726> willcooke: Yes, though U1DB currently doesn't do realtime sync <dmj726> although I suspect they would be likely to add it if Ubuntu TV needed it. <dmj726> U1DB is also document oriented as well, which is very good for this sort of thing <willcooke> popey, are you chan op? <popey> i am <aquarius> o/ willcooke <dmj726> MrChrisDruif: I think there's probably place to get an overall feel for the platform even without a priority list :) <dmj726> where we want to go and do and all that <willcooke> aquarius, tell us about how we can sync U1DB quickly between multiple devices <willcooke> we want to sync bookmarks etc between devices <aquarius> does "quickly" mean "each sync does not take very long", or "we can have a syncing thing up and running a short time from today"? <dmj726> quickly as in fairly real time, yes? <aquarius> ah, right. I should be clear that u1db is early in development right now. <aquarius> Syncs are commanded by the application that's using the database <aquarius> so if you want to fire off a sync every time a bookmark is written, you can do so <dmj726> aquarius: So can one setup U1DB to automatically sync databases for each change? <aquarius> well... doing a sync is just another u1db method. dmj726, are you a coder? <dmj726> dmj726: yep, with Novacut, mostly on the gstreamer side though <aquarius> dmj726, aha! then I've met you, I believe :P <dmj726> First day of UDS? <aquarius> ok, so you write a document to a u1db with something like db.put_doc(docid, document) <aquarius> so there's nothing stopping your "save a doc" method doing "db.put_doc(docid, document); db.sync(server_location)" if you want * willcooke loves it when people come together <dmj726> aquarius: Are there any performance issues with the way U1DB syncs that would be an issue with doing many syncs? <willcooke> Does everyone who writes code know everyone else who writes code?! <aquarius> difficult to answer that question right now because the server implementation is still under discussion, but let me think about it for two mins :) <aquarius> willcooke, yep. We all know one another. It is witchcraft <dmj726> will U1DB provide anything like _rev in couchdb? <aquarius> yep, there are revisions <dmj726> willcooke: well, more of a general uttering incantations into a glowing talisman thing really <willcooke> XD <dmj726> so it sounds like U1DB could be used to provide input to the TV and feedback to tablets <willcooke> sweet <aquarius> yeah. Think of it as like couchdb but not requiring a separate server to be run, from one perspective <aquarius> I mean, if you're writing a lot of docs, and you sync after every write, you'll be hammering the server <aquarius> but maybe that's reasonable <aquarius> the other alternative is u1 file sync, which is instantaneous <dmj726> I would guess we should only write the docs that are changed <aquarius> sync will only sync changed docs <aquarius> I don't know what you're talking about using u1db *for* here, though :) <dmj726> aquarius: mainly input from users for controlling the TV I believe <aquarius> erm... how does input need a database? <dmj726> plus applications interfacing between devices <popey> willcooke: did you need something oppy? <aquarius> I press the "left" button on a remote; a thing moves left. where's there a DB in this? :) <popey> willcooke: I'll add you if you like? <aquarius> applications interfacing between devices, sure :) <dmj726> aquarius: let me link you to a mailing list <willcooke> popey, nah I was trying to invite aq, but we're all sorted <popey> gotcha <dmj726> https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-tv/msg00005.html <dmj726> aquarius: ^^ <aquarius> riiiight. <aquarius> if you want actual real-time stuff like that, the way to do it is probably not to write locally and then sync every time. You can write direct to the server <dmj726> so it's about controlling the TV from tablets and phones and such <dmj726> so write direct to the server for input, and write locally with sync for collaborative stuff <aquarius> that's sorta what I'm thinking. If you want to control a remote device from here in realtime, then you want a permanently-open communications channel, which is not what u1db is. <popey> avahi âº <aquarius> and trying to trick up u1db into being a permanently-open comms channel will just cause you misery :) This is why jabber exists :) <popey> heh, jabber server in your telly <willcooke> good idea <willcooke> you could message it to say record xyz <aquarius> all this assumes they're on the same network, of course <dmj726> so you would send a message to the DB on the server via jabber? or am I being silly <willcooke> ahh, yes <aquarius> jabber can send all kinds of messages, so it's good at realtime stuff <popey> you could chat with the telly <popey> "Was eastenders any good on tuesday?" <popey> "BARB Ratings for Eastenders on tuesday put it ahead of I'm A Celebrity" <aquarius> check out Volity for an example of using jabber as a realtime comms channel -- they have a multiplayer games server which uses jabber as the comms protocol. It's not just for IM chat <popey> you could do video chat inside the house, webcam on every telly <popey> <kitchen> "Hey bob, your dinner is ready" <dmj726> so jabber would be better than using a REST API? <aquarius> the question is: why is this stuff going into a database on both the device and the tv? <aquarius> if I'm controlling the tv to show people a youtube video, say... why do I need to record forever on both the tv and my phone that I did that? <aquarius> it's just an RPC, right? <tgm4883> So i'm probably not going to be available for the meeting today <dmj726> aquarius: that's true <tgm4883> I have to give two back to back interviews today starting in 20 minutes <dmj726> Though it may sometimes be important to model the state of the system <tgm4883> I'm fine with the list so far, and I'm responding to the email from willcooke right now <dmj726> So if the local device can for instance know that the TV is in "Play" mode, it can offer more intelligent interface on the client <aquarius> dmj726, yeah, there's value in recording this stuff in a DB somewhere, but I can't see why you wuoldn't just have RPC from phone to TV and then have the TV stash away logs of commands (in a DB, or whatever) <willcooke> sounds like the best option <aquarius> dmj726, oooh, trying to keep the local device permanently in sync with what mode the TV is in is a real-time collaboration problem. At that point you're building World of Warcraft, and it ain't easy. If you're on the LAN, it's a lot easier to request http://tv/states/ and have it return {"state": "play"} :-) <MrChrisDruif> tgm4883; too bad you can't come. Good luck with the interviews =) <dmj726> Well, not nearly so intensive as WoW I wouldn't think, though not the easiest <dmj726> aquarius: but then wouldn't the device have to keep pinging http://tv/states? <aquarius> well, I'd make that a comet endpoint, but yeah <aquarius> so you wouldn't ping it; you'd hang on it <dmj726> so whenever something needs it, you wait for it to respond? <aquarius> well, if you're hanging on it, then you get told whenever it changes <dmj726> ah, okay, that hang <dmj726> aquarius: Hmm, so you would requests http://tv/states/ parse the data, present it. Then when the user does something, send a jabber message to the TV, which then changes the contents of http://tv/states <MrChrisDruif> I think that is how you should think of it <aquarius> the question is whether you need lots of two-way realtime communication between device and tv <aquarius> if you do, then use jabber for it <aquarius> if it's mainly one-way (device sends a command, tv obeys) and occasionally the other way (tv changes something, device needs to know about it) then do it over http with a couple of hang-on-this endpoints on the tv <aquarius> you shouldn't need both <MrChrisDruif> Two-way. I don't know. It could for faster letting the device know that a change has happened <MrChrisDruif> And the TV ALSO writes it to http://tv/states/ <aquarius> the tv doesn't need to write it there, though, if it's sending jabber messages to everyone <aquarius> no-one will ever read the endpoint <MrChrisDruif> It could request the current state with jabber I think? <dmj726> Authentication/pairing is also important to consider here <erkan^> ubuntu-tv, MrChrisDruif ? <MrChrisDruif> Yup <erkan^> wat doet men precies? <MrChrisDruif> I was announced with UDS-P (the previous one) <MrChrisDruif> erkan^; This is an international channel, please use English =) <erkan^> sorry, I will speak English language only :P <MrChrisDruif> Alright everyone, shall we start the "meeting"? <dmj726> sure <IAmNotThatGuy> o/ <MrChrisDruif> Alright, for who has missed it, here is the link to the feature list we want to get implemented: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UbuntuTV <AlanBell> MrChrisDruif: want a meeting bot? <IAmNotThatGuy> AlanBell, sure <MrChrisDruif> AlanBell; could be usefull <MrChrisDruif> -l <AlanBell> done :) <IAmNotThatGuy> MrChrisDruif, #startmeeting <MrChrisDruif> #startmeeting <meetingology> Meeting started Wed Nov 23 17:03:18 2011 UTC. The chair is MrChrisDruif. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot. <meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired <MrChrisDruif> Welcome everyone, now we get "official" <IAmNotThatGuy> Raise your hands for attendance <IAmNotThatGuy> o/ <MrChrisDruif> Indeed <dmj726> o/ <AlanBell> o/ <MrChrisDruif> o/ <popey> o/ <MrChrisDruif> tgm4883 is unfortunately missing because of two interview back-to-back <popey> oh, is the meeting actually now? <MrChrisDruif> Yup <popey> you're not just testing the bot? <IAmNotThatGuy> popey, lol yep <popey> oh, sorry <popey> âº <MrChrisDruif> #link http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UbuntuTV <MrChrisDruif> (Quiet link acceptance?) <MrChrisDruif> And another one <MrChrisDruif> #link http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/11/22/%23ubuntu-tv.html <MrChrisDruif> The first link is to the document we are about the further discuss. To know what has been discussed already, please look in the second link <IAmNotThatGuy> Okay. Carryon <MrChrisDruif> #topic Prioritizing the list <AlanBell> MrChrisDruif: yeah, #link doesn't do a massive amount right now, there is a bug about that <MrChrisDruif> <_<" <MrChrisDruif> It's still useful to mention the links =) <AlanBell> yes <MrChrisDruif> We were going down the list from top to bottom and we got to Collaboration with Ubuntu devices <MrChrisDruif> Does everybody understand the different sections? (They are pretty explanatory if you ask me) <Wellark> hi! sorry for being late! <MrChrisDruif> Welcome Wellark <dmj726> Personally I think collaboration is high importance <dmj726> It could be a pretty key differentiator for Ubuntu devices <IAmNotThatGuy> +1 <MrChrisDruif> I'm not sure to put it in the high section. <dmj726> Mark seems fairly keen on the idea too <Wellark> yes, +1 <callumsaunders1> i agree with with dmj726 <callumsaunders1> high <Wellark> as I've understood the "Unity Experience" is also largely about collaboration <IAmNotThatGuy> MrChrisDruif, Any reasons for that thought? <MrChrisDruif> Well, I think it might be a very good feature to have, I do think we shouldn't put it in the high because I don't know how many devs we will have and we can't have it all in high <dmj726> Well, I think it's important to design with it in mind than to tack it on after all other things are implemented <Wellark> well, I think the rest can be other than "high" :) <Wellark> but collaboration between devices as high <MrChrisDruif> Wellark; How do you mean? The things that are now in high you mean? <Wellark> I mean the uncategorized ones <MrChrisDruif> Okay, noted <Wellark> there are only two left after this one <Wellark> the high priority list seems to be pretty good package <dmj726> So collaboration in High? <callumsaunders1> high <Wellark> +1 <MrChrisDruif> Btw I had a note added after the meeting about the previous item <IAmNotThatGuy> But you should consider what MrChrisDruif is talking about. Starting it with less number of developers will also lead to some wrong tracks and delay in work <dmj726> We should try to figure out how many developers the project really has. <MrChrisDruif> That is certainly something to keep in mind, but it's prospected to not have anything very functional until 13.04 or something <dmj726> It's probably more important to get it right than get it done quick and have to backtrack <callumsaunders1> +1 <MrChrisDruif> Indeed <Wellark> I don't feel the HIGH section is too cumbersome <IAmNotThatGuy> dmj726, True. But if you ask me, then I will say "What about finding the right developers be the high priority job? =]" <AlanBell> is there a hardware reference specification? <Wellark> anyway the items in high section have to be prioritized <dmj726> So we should decide what the core functionality needs to be for a compelling offering, and then work toward that. <AlanBell> is it ARM or Atom for example? <callumsaunders1> all of it. except home automation <MrChrisDruif> dmj726; that was the main reasoning in the different sections <AlanBell> what screen resolution? full HD? <callumsaunders1> that list should be ubuntu tv 1.0 <popey> 0.00001 <MrChrisDruif> Haha, popey <IAmNotThatGuy> popey +1000 ;D <dmj726> also some things are easier to bolt on after the fact and others are much harder to change once you've gone far <MrChrisDruif> What is absolutely required, is essential <MrChrisDruif> That's why the plugin system is in high <MrChrisDruif> It's not necessary, but it's a very useful way to add functionality later on <dmj726> So essential is "what do we need for a working TV" <MrChrisDruif> Yup <MrChrisDruif> High is the "cool" system <IAmNotThatGuy> We can even plan how it should be and can keep it for the next version (If needed) <MrChrisDruif> Medium is the "awesome" system <dmj726> high is "what do we need for a device that people will want beyond an ordinary tv" <dmj726> yeah <MrChrisDruif> And low is the "ICan'tDescribeThisInWords" system <dmj726> for reference I suspect that control from portable devices will be very easy once we have Collaborate with other Ubuntu devices, just a little work on top of that framework <MrChrisDruif> Yeah, that's why we initially put it in medium <dmj726> and Push media to/from other Ubuntu devices / Media syncing capabilities would also fit within the framework <dmj726> so implement collaboration framework and the other two are specific applications thereof <MrChrisDruif> I tend to agree on that (I'm not a dev) <dmj726> yeah, that sounds good <dmj726> so we need the collaboration framework because that lets other devs make the TV very cool <callumsaunders1> this needs to be in tablet & phone & pc aswell <dmj726> yes, it should be everywhere <MrChrisDruif> So either all those should be in high OR in medium, and if we'd have to call it now I'd say high (seeing the functionality of collaboration with tablet/phones) <dmj726> okay <MrChrisDruif> Everyone agrees on that? <callumsaunders1> sure <Wellark> sure <MrChrisDruif> Alright, I'll move it up (and rephrase it after the meeting) <IAmNotThatGuy> okies <MrChrisDruif> I've put a note in the last one from the high (now at least) about collaboration with Ubuntu Phone & Tablet <MrChrisDruif> I think we should also let them in on the "action" and pitch in where it's logical <dmj726> yeah <MrChrisDruif> (Luckily I've noticed that a lot from #ubuntu-phone & #ubuntu-tablet are already here) <MrChrisDruif> But we still should give a shout-out to them on their mailing-lists <dmj726> Also, input from
{'channel': 'ubuntu-tv', 'month': 11}