#ubuntu-doc 2005-08-01 <poningru> whos incharge of ubotu ? <rob^> I forget <poningru> cause its locked <rob^> I just made a change to it <poningru> oh <poningru> is it the dualboot? <poningru> anyway it worked thanks <rob^> some people added some inapproprate things to it a while back, they may have some sought of acl on it now I'm not sure <rob^> yeah, I added dualboot for you <HrdwrBoB> sort not sought :) <rob^> yeah, yeah.. <rob^> I'm sick with the flu, leave me alone :P <poningru> hehe we forgive you <Burgundavia> rwabel, from what I understand, backports staging can also go away <Burgundavia> backports is now just like universe and multiverse <Burgundavia> what language was this? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RestrictedFormats?action=diff <HrdwrBoB> spanish <HrdwrBoB> looks like <Burgundavia> sure it is not portugese? <HrdwrBoB> nope <Burgundavia> ok <Burgundavia> well the old revisions are in the wiki <Burgundavia> we can pull out when we find out * rob^ pokes head in <Burgundavia> Kassim <-- this is the guy that has been translating pages in place <Burgundavia> please revert if you see him <rob^> ah <rob^> what a pain <Burgundavia> well the copies are stored, so when we figure out what language, it will be trivial to copy them to a new page <HrdwrBoB> any way of contacting him etc? <Burgundavia> the work is not lose <Burgundavia> not easily <Burgundavia> mediawiki has a user talk page, and tells you when someone edits it <Burgundavia> moin does not <HrdwrBoB> ah, I thought it was missing a few features <Burgundavia> moin is much nicer in terms of thoughput <Burgundavia> it has manage 10x the number of hits as mediawiki <Burgundavia> but mediawiki has some useful features for larger groups of people and communication only on the wiki <Burgundavia> the wiki mark in media is also more sane and has more features <Burgundavia> for better presentation docs <rwabel> burgundavia: thanks for the answer <Burgundavia> rwabel, np <rwabel> burgundavia: the page is in portugese, even though I don't speak that language <Burgundavia> rwabel, would you mind moving his translations from the history of the following pages? <Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/InstallUbuntuOnLowMemorySystems <Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RestrictedFormats <Burgundavia> I have to be somewhere in 30 minutes <rwabel> how do I move history? <Burgundavia> just PortugesePageName is fine now <Burgundavia> just copy paset from the history <rwabel> only english part <Burgundavia> click on getinfo <Burgundavia> and then view the edit by Kassim <Burgundavia> copy that <rwabel> ok I found it <rwabel> and copy where in the RestrictedFormats? <rwabel> it's a complet different subject?! <Burgundavia> is it? <Burgundavia> anyway, I have run <HrdwrBoB> wtf is he doing <Burgundavia> if you get stuck, email the list <HrdwrBoB> why translate things in place <rwabel> I'm now a bit confused where to put that....it's complet different stuff <rob^> when the faq guide was ported into svn, was it done under both licences or just one? <Burgundavia> rob^, gpl, gfdl and cc-by-sa 2.0 <Burgundavia> rob^, ours and his <rob^> all three? <rob^> hmm <Burgundavia> it is a deriv of his work, which is gpl <Burgundavia> and thus must be gpl <rob^> yeah <Burgundavia> he agreed to relicense under our licenses <Burgundavia> which makes it tri-licensed <rob^> super.. <rwabel> burgundavia: I better don't move the things, I don't wanna mess sth up.... <Burgundavia> ok, email the list about it then <rob^> I thought the gpl is a software licence <Burgundavia> rob^, it is a license <rob^> the gfdl is the documentation one <Burgundavia> it can applied ot anything, but it is meant for software <rob^> yeah. <rwabel> burgundavia: email what to whom? <Burgundavia> gfdl and cc-by-ca 2.0 are DFSG-non-fre <Burgundavia> rwabel, email the ubuntu-doc list about those docs <rwabel> burgundavia: sorry, I've no idea about these docs, what should I email..I mean what's the problem or what is not ok..what should be done. <rwabel> night <Burgundavia> rob^, the gpl is also locally on all Ubuntu systems <Burgundavia> /usr/share/licenses or something similar <rob^> yeah <Burgundavia> you can just point them at that <rob^> its only an entity link anyway <rob^> in the doc <rob^> we could just change the entity to point to that instead <jsgotangco> rob^, nice on YelpMain but you'll have to contend with scrollkeeper for that as well editing the toc.xml is quite easy but I think the plan for Breezy would be a separate document <poningru> anyone know why the wiki is subdomained under ubuntu and not ubuntulinux? <jsgotangco> but if you just want to put these documents in Yelp status quo, just adding a yelp chunk on the final xml would work <HrdwrBoB> poningru: it's both <jsgotangco> poningru, its the same thing <rob^> jsgotangco, say again? <rob^> jsgotangco, I was going to suggest it at the meeting as an alternative <rob^> jsgotangco, I'll edit the toc.xml if needed <rob^> or whatever else is needed.. * rob^ is confused <jsgotangco> rob^, coordinate with jdub about it <poningru> ic <jsgotangco> rob^, all entries in yelp are catalogued by sk <jsgotangco> (currently) <jsgotangco> that's why we have a lot of upstream docs in it at the moment <rob^> ok <rob^> are you talking about yelp in Breezy at the moment <jsgotangco> Hoary as well <rob^> the main page in hoary at the moment (as released) is kind of like my idea <rob^> we just need to expand it to cover all our docs <jsgotangco> if the Yelp main page will be status quo, we'll just have to add an sk catalog file so that it'll be part of the front page <Burgundavia> the current main page is seriously non-functional <Burgundavia> with no search, there is no reasonable way for anyone to find anything <rob^> Burgundavia, yes, it just needs love <Burgundavia> and we can safely say that 95% of the questions will be about 10% of our material <rob^> search should be a yelp thing, not a page thing <jsgotangco> well yes, is an upstream issue either way on the search thing... <Burgundavia> search is unlikely to happen in the breezy timeframe, from what I understand <jsgotangco> that's why the workaround was to have a separate document on the yelp main page <jsgotangco> but if thats not workable, we'll just have to contend with adding sk catalog files again <jsgotangco> and edit toc.xml if needed <insanekane> froud_: are you there ? <Burgundavia> insanekane, you speak portugese or spanish? <insanekane> neither <jsgotangco> we'll probably get colony 3 anytime this week... <insanekane> Burgundavia: last night, my power went out ... thats why i left suddenly <Burgundavia> insanekane, ah, poor man <insanekane> Burgundavia: heavy rains in this area <Burgundavia> ouch <rob^> jsgotangco, where is toc.xml in svn? <jsgotangco> its not part of our svn <rob^> in the distro <rob^> ok <rob^> I got it <jsgotangco> Meeting time (there is a reason I put this first, please leave it!) <jsgotangco> ? <jsgotangco> its in the agenda <rob^> yeah that was me <jsgotangco> what's the issue? <jsgotangco> we rotate 14 and 22 <rob^> 1400z on Thursday is really bad <Burgundavia> it is shit for me as well <rob^> thats midnight my time, and I have to be up at 5am for work <Burgundavia> but it does get me up early <jsgotangco> rob^, its morning for the canucks <Burgundavia> 7am for me <jsgotangco> 22 for me is 6am <rob^> we need to make it like friday instead <rob^> or at some other time <poningru> is this like a meeting or something I had a question about a wiki page <poningru> can I butt in? <Burgundavia> meeting times suck for everybody at different times <Burgundavia> that is why we rotate <jsgotangco> poningru, sure ask away this is just informal talk <rob^> yeah I know they do <poningru> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WiFiHowto <poningru> doesnt that look complete? <rob^> but even an hour earlier would be helpful <poningru> can we take that off of the cleanup list <Burgundavia> poningru, yes, but a little too wordy <poningru> ok so you want it sweet and simplified? <jsgotangco> rob^, anything earlier than 14 would be asking too much for the people in NA <poningru> will work on it then <rob^> man world wide meeting times suck <Burgundavia> yes they do <Burgundavia> the technical board has fun <Burgundavia> as mdz is in my timezone <rob^> a lot more members.. <poningru> hehe yeah they are not so bad if most of the people are in the same hemisphere <jsgotangco> the next CC meeting would suck as that would be at 4am <Burgundavia> poningru, ideally, it should be do A because of B, then do C <jsgotangco> rob^, problem on our side is that our team is spread across atlantic and pacific :) * rob^ is just on the wrong side of the world <Burgundavia> we have active teams members is -7, +1, 0 and whater the aussie/jstongco is <rob^> +10 <jsgotangco> yeah <jsgotangco> im +8 <jsgotangco> so a solution is that we all emigrate somewhere... <rob^> I dunno, but maybe something could be discussed was my objective for it <jsgotangco> rob^, sure we'll put it on discussion on the meeting <insanekane> or perhaps some asynchronous mechanism, such as ... mailing list ? :) * insanekane ducks <rob^> grr why does yelp not like the yelp .xml files <Burgundavia> it doesn't like malformed xml <rob^> heh yeah * Burgundavia is glad that HostingGeek has never found the time to grace our channel <jsgotangco> lol <jsgotangco> did he get banned again * jsgotangco likes LocalHelp for lack of a search function... <Burgundavia> no <Burgundavia> he is being himself in #inkscape <Burgundavia> he got banned from #openttd <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, you mean that you like local help if we don't get a search function? <Burgundavia> poningru, the general rule I follow when I write a doc is after I am finished, look at each sentence and try to reduce the word count <jsgotangco> Burgundavia, it can work if we are in that situation... <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, which I fear we may be in <Burgundavia> again... <jsgotangco> but then even old Yelp in RHEL had an Index <jsgotangco> i mean search-capable index <Burgundavia> rofl --> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?t=19585 <Burgundavia> windows user downloads a .deb and wonders what to do with it <jsgotangco> great <jsgotangco> hmmm freeciv2 already has an osx binary.. <Burgundavia> yes <jsgotangco> how good is open ttd <Burgundavia> the original game plus some cool new features <Burgundavia> they are working on new graphics (they currently need to old copyrighted ones) <jsgotangco> oh you mean the original game is already open? <Burgundavia> they also ship a deb <Burgundavia> no <Burgundavia> the original author of ttd reverse engineered ttd and rewrote it in C <jsgotangco> isnt that sid meier <jsgotangco> ? <rob^> jsgotangco, Burgundavia I just made an update to YelpMain.. bbs <Burgundavia> no <Burgundavia> is Chris Sawyer, of Roller coast tycoon <jsgotangco> oh right...christ sawyer <jsgotangco> what are the other cool oss games out there <Burgundavia> there is a list on the forums, just a sec <jsgotangco> you mean they're already packaged for ubuntu? <Burgundavia> some are <jsgotangco> motu games :D <Burgundavia> barrage is a fun little game <Burgundavia> MOTUGames is mostly my idea <jsgotangco> i would probably enjoy doing MOTUGames <Burgundavia> I am waiting for unfrgivens intro developer docs <Burgundavia> so I can start packaging <Burgundavia> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=5153 <jsgotangco> is openttd already in upstream? <Burgundavia> no <Burgundavia> put the .debs that openttd themselves make install fine on hoary and breezy <jsgotangco> with sound? <Burgundavia> yes <Burgundavia> yes dmix <jsgotangco> nice <Burgundavia> but dmix appears to have borked on me <jsgotangco> hmm let me try... <jsgotangco> OpenTTD requires the original version of Transport Tycoon Deluxe data files in order to function. Please refer to the readme for more information. <jsgotangco> gyaahhh <Burgundavia> I have them <Burgundavia> you want me to mail them to you? <jsgotangco> how big? <Burgundavia> 5 mb <jsgotangco> gee fire away..its not that much <Burgundavia> sent <poningru> can you mail it to me as well please? <poningru> davidhull@example.net <jsgotangco> oh its mostly artwork stuff... <Burgundavia> all artwork stuff <Burgundavia> poningru, sent <poningru> thanks dude <rob^> ok back <rob^> my issue with localhelp, even though we don't have a search function, is that it becomes messy <Burgundavia> yes it does <rob^> it has pointers all over the place <Burgundavia> we need to satisfy that 95%/10% divide <rob^> and we already have a list of whats in each doc in the toc <Burgundavia> which we currently do not do <rob^> ie, in the toc of each document <Burgundavia> every click that we require users to make has a "cost" <rob^> and 99.9% of people have read a book <Burgundavia> the higher the cost, the more likely they are to give up <rob^> a toc shouldn't be unfamiliar with them either <Burgundavia> the total "money" that people are usually willing to spend on help is about 1 or 2 clicks <rob^> I think it would cost more click using Localhelp <rob^> particularly if the info they were after isnt where they clicked <Burgundavia> for some yes <Burgundavia> but not for the majority <rob^> YelpMain also makes keeping it up to date much easier <jsgotangco> Burgundavia, i got nasty libc6 dependency problems while installing openttd <rob^> LocalHelp is like having a whole new document] <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, oh crap <Burgundavia> they are built against sarge <jsgotangco> Burgundavia, hehehe...long debate on this... <jsgotangco> rob^, the current plan is to have a new document on Yelp <Burgundavia> sometimes binary compatiblity is nice, for stable distros <jsgotangco> rob^, it was already discussed before by jdub and mpt <rob^> jsgotangco, yes, but it doesn't need to be so complicated <jsgotangco> rob^, we lack a search function :( <rob^> jsgotangco, but we still have table of contents <Burgundavia> when we get a search function, we can debate this again <rob^> in each doc, automatically updated as we work on it <rob^> a search function would be nice, but we don't have to have it <jsgotangco> all help have search functions <jsgotangco> except yelp at the moment <rob^> something like LocalHelp works for the wiki because there is no other way to show that kind of info <rob^> but not when each link has its own toc <Burgundavia> say I am looking for one of the common 10 things <rob^> faq/quick guide <jsgotangco> rob^, but anything 2 levels deeper will make it tedious and overwhelming for some <Burgundavia> but that requires a click <rob^> most likely you will know what your problem is ie. I want to install a music app <Burgundavia> no <rob^> how can the 10 most asked questions cover that? <Burgundavia> mostly you will no want you want to do <Burgundavia> not how to do it <rob^> jsgotangco, its not <Burgundavia> task-based, not application-based <jsgotangco> rob^, if you notice GNOME is starting to get task-based even <Burgundavia> lmao --> http://forums.bit-tech.net/showthread.php?t=94318 <rob^> we shouldn't assume everyone who uses Ubunt is a compleat numbty <rob^> 99% are not <Burgundavia> 99% of the computer users in the world are <rob^> at least 99% can read a toc <Burgundavia> that is the segment we are targeting <jsgotangco> Burgundavia, did you get the email of David Ottina? <Burgundavia> but why make it hard <rob^> our documents are books <rob^> they have toc <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, David Ottina?> <rob^> we should be using that <jsgotangco> Burgundavia, i'll forward <Burgundavia> cheers <rob^> jsgotangco, look at System -> Preferences for example, that list is huge and hard to read <Burgundavia> yes, and the gnome people realize that <Burgundavia> there is a wiki page about a rethink of that stuff <rob^> but thats what LocalHelp is <jsgotangco> that's why gnome is beginning to be task-based <Burgundavia> no it isn't <Burgundavia> we need about 7-10 items on the yelp main page <Burgundavia> they can expand to 7 items each <rob^> Burgundavia, yes, in fact it is <rob^> and that makes it worse <Burgundavia> not if the headings are well designed * jsgotangco gives up on the yelp discussion as it was already discussed a lot of times already <Burgundavia> rather than argue about it <Burgundavia> lets just fix LocalHelp <rob^> it takes me at least just six scrolls of the wheel mouse just to view it all <rob^> most people wont read past the first page or two <rob^> and just give up <Burgundavia> rob^, remember that the subsections will be hidden by default <Burgundavia> and only open when they click <jsgotangco> thats why books arent really great for help in the first place <rob^> I'm not arguing, I want to fix LocalHelp, thats why I am speaking up <Burgundavia> also remeber that the text on the wiki is larger <Burgundavia> and the spacing larger <rob^> a little, but its still long <Burgundavia> but most of the subsections will not be open <rob^> and there is still a lot to be added to LocalHelp yet also <Burgundavia> so you wil see 9 items <rob^> my way you would see about 5 <rob^> one for each doc <rob^> click on one, there is the toc for that doc <Burgundavia> I think I can safely predict taht most people will simply click ont he faq guide <Burgundavia> and those that don't will get confused <rob^> the faq guide is for quick answers to common questions <rob^> thats its purpose <Burgundavia> then why make the extra click? if we already know what most people are going to ask <rob^> but by your reasoning, we should scrap everything and just have the faq guide <Burgundavia> not really <Burgundavia> I want small bitsized docs <Burgundavia> not huge books <Burgundavia> that are massivelly interlinked <Burgundavia> think a well done wiki <jsgotangco> there's a reason why Burgundavia wants to respec the curret quickguide as well <jsgotangco> if LocalHelp is made possible <jsgotangco> i'll brb <rob^> dam irc client died on me <jsgotangco> Burgundavia: open ttd works great in osx though <Burgundavia> ah <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, have you sent that email on to me? <jsgotangco> oh right wait sorry about that <mdke> hey all <mdke> rob^, ping? <jsgotangco> hey mdke * jsgotangco is reading about Rails <rob^> mdke, pong <rob^> whats up? <Burgundavia> salut mdke <mdke> yo <mdke> rob^, i noticed you changed the links to the faqguide on DocteamProjects, is something wrong with the hosting it has currently? <rob^> the previews arnt working <mdke> in what way? <rob^> ie, click on them, you get an error message <jsgotangco> Burgundavia: sent <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, cheers <rob^> eg: <rob^> Routing Error <rob^> Recognition failed for "/~ubuntu-doc/about-ubuntu/C/" <mdke> rob^, i see it, odd. <rob^> I didn't know if anyone was updating them <mdke> yes i have been <rob^> so I have the latest copy of the faq guide on my web host <mdke> ok <rob^> but I can change the link back if you want <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, that is major cool stuff <Burgundavia> have to parse it more later <jsgotangco> Burgundavia: aye its a mouthful...i have to digest it further <Burgundavia> I need to get to bed <Burgundavia> job search calls tomorrow <jsgotangco> heh good luck! <Burgundavia> and faxing my laptop testing stuff! <jsgotangco> Burgundavia: claire sent the wrong fax number <Burgundavia> yes, she emailed me the correct one <jsgotangco> ahh <jsgotangco> i just scanned mine <mdke> rob^, i'll ping tseng to ask why the hosting isn't working. but the docteam linode is working already, we only need a domain name for it and then we can use that. <rob^> mdke, the way I have it is a bit of a fudge (it requires me building then uploading via ftp to my website) <rob^> cool <rob^> feel free to change them to it <mdke> dunno if its worth changing them already to the ip address of the server, or waiting for the domain <rob^> docteam.u.o? <mdke> com <rob^> yeah that one? <rob^> ok <mdke> yes <rob^> is it ok to have a link to the GPL (ie a ulink) or do I need to include it with the faq guide? <jsgotangco> see you guys later <mpt> Can yelp load stuff over http? #ubuntu-doc 2005-08-02 <Burgundavia> salut mpt <mpt> hi Burgundavia, I've just put ubuntu-help on the Supermirror <Burgundavia> cool <mpt> davidhull@example.net/help--0 <Burgundavia> now I just need the baz crack of the day to work, haven't tried in a few days <mpt> wah, where'd he go <Burgundavia> bloody xchat <mpt> Should show up at http://davidhull@example.net/ within about 15 minutes <Burgundavia> ok <mpt> so feel free to add all the docbook markup I haven't learnt yet, fill in your own sections, etc :-) <Burgundavia> ok <mpt> for each topic, think: Why has someone come here? <mpt> it's quite probably because they've tried the obvious thing, and it hasn't worked <mpt> so each topic should cover the most likely causes of failure. <mpt> anyway, I need to log off and give the ethernet cable back to the hotel computer :-) <mpt> I'll be back two hours before the docteam meeting <Burgundavia> ok <mpt> tchau <Burgundavia> mdke, I am waving the flaming sword of organization on the wiki <mdke> hello <mdke> sounds good <Burgundavia> ok <Burgundavia> does moving fix the links to that page or do I need to do that myself? <mdke> you have to do that <mdke> same as deleting <Burgundavia> ok, same as mediawiki <Burgundavia> salut jsgotangco <jsgotangco> salut <jsgotangco> Burgundavia, you seem to have an itch on Installation help heh <mdke> yes cept mediawiki leaves a redirect note on the previous page afaik, ours doesn't even do that <Burgundavia> mdke, moving a page creates a redirect, yes <jsgotangco> ahhh and mdke is back again... <Burgundavia> however, mediawiki search ignores redirects <Burgundavia> ours does not <Burgundavia> I have been struggling with backlinks <Burgundavia> is ther something like this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Whatlinkshere/Main_Page <Burgundavia> all I can find is this --> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Installation?action=LocalSiteMap <mdke> yes <Burgundavia> which sucks <Burgundavia> to be honest <mdke> just click on the title of the page you want to see the backlinks for <mdke> dude <mdke> you've been deleting pages without knowing that? <Burgundavia> I have been following local site map <mdke> no wonder there are broken links around <jsgotangco> heh <jsgotangco> steam roller <Burgundavia> sorry our wiki software hides useful features in stupid locations * rob^ finally gets xauth working :) <mdke> i thought all wikis have the "click on title for backlinks" thing <Burgundavia> I like mediawiki's links, sorry <Burgundavia> nothing is hidden in menus <Burgundavia> or hidden completely <jsgotangco> right <jsgotangco> go mediawiki <Burgundavia> the other thing that bugs me is getting from any special page back the page it is about <mdke> ok burgs it is hidden I agree, but you really should make sure you know stuff like that before going around deleting pages <Burgundavia> mediawiki has a link called aricle <Burgundavia> mdke, sorry about that, but that is total bollocks where it puts it <mdke> Burgundavia, i agree, but still, if you're gonna do drastic work, read the docs man <Burgundavia> yes <Burgundavia> it is just a wiki <Burgundavia> if I need to read a documenation about how to use it, that is completely broken <mdke> i agree <mdke> but still, i warned you about backlinks a few times <Burgundavia> I thought I knew what I was doing <Burgundavia> I found a semi useful link <mdke> ok well np <mdke> we can fix the broken links * Burgundavia grumbles about stupid broken shit * mdke_ presses wrong button <mdke> Burgundavia, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuHowCome has escaped the flaming sword? :p <Burgundavia> haven't got to it yet <mdke> ;) <Burgundavia> don't worry, there is lots to burn through before then <jsgotangco> when i saw it, i read "HowToCome" <Burgundavia> lmao * Burgundavia now has to decide whether to sleep for 4 hours or just stay up <rob^> thats a pretty big wiki page <Burgundavia> indeed <Burgundavia> the author is quite a nice guy <Burgundavia> just needed to be guided in the correct direction <rob^> theres gotta be some useful stuff there :) <Burgundavia> what do I do with these lovely Moin installation docs? <Burgundavia> they cannot stay where they are, due to misleading names <mdke> you can't edit them afaik <Burgundavia> what!!! <mdke> lemme read your email <Burgundavia> you are right <Burgundavia> I cannot <rob^> hmm my breezy test-bed pc needs 550 mb to upgrade from warty to breezy * Burgundavia goes with his sword to hunt down hendrik <mdke> all the HelpOn pages are moin related <Burgundavia> yes * jsgotangco avoids the wiki stuff as much as possible <Burgundavia> I still hate our wiki <rob^> if you don't want to remove them, maybe rename them to MoinEtcEtc or something <Burgundavia> but, like any ugly child, it still needs love <Burgundavia> yes <rob^> it needs a bitch slap <Burgundavia> rob^, I don't want them to die, they just need to move <mdke> maybe we can make a subpage under /Moin/ <rob^> Burgundavia, yeah, so if you rename them people wont get confused <mdke> but all the links will need redoing i think <rob^> yeah :P <Burgundavia> that cannot be that many <jsgotangco> does the moin sandbox still exist <Burgundavia> yes <Burgundavia> MoinSandbox, I think <jsgotangco> either that or WikiSandbox <jsgotangco> how about FindPage <jsgotangco> and HelpForBeginners <mdke> there are millions of help pages <mdke> well, not millions obviously <jsgotangco> well those are the basic Moin help pages... <mdke> HelpContents is the index <Burgundavia> I am also thinking about a standard page name for installation of programs <mdke> Burgundavia, the problem is you have to deal with all the language variants of the HelpPages too <Burgundavia> yes <Burgundavia> I am well aware of that <jsgotangco> see HelpForBeginners is still standard Moin help <jsgotangco> heh <Burgundavia> it also needs to move <mdke> i dunno <Burgundavia> moin has no bloody namespaces <mdke> i still believe that linking is the way forward <Burgundavia> like Moin:Blah <Burgundavia> upstream rejected my idea of adding them as "a hack" * Burgundavia thinks upstream doesn't understand presentation wikis <jsgotangco> nice...the whole ubuntu moin wiki still has all the moin help pages... <mdke> of course, you don't think it should? <jsgotangco> mdke, not all <Burgundavia> I don't mind the moin help pages <Burgundavia> I just want them clearly labelled as Moin pages <jsgotangco> but then, those pages are really useless in a security sense... <mdke> jsgotangco, but how do users learn about how the wiki works? <Burgundavia> do you think ProgramInstallation or InstallingProgram is a better default? <Burgundavia> mdke, you make a page like this --> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Introduction <jsgotangco> mdke, like i said, some pages are pretty useless for end users as they pertain mostly to Moin backend config and ACLs <Burgundavia> linked from FrontPage <mdke> jsgotangco, but they might be useful to some, so why remove them? do they do harm to others? <Burgundavia> email sent to Hendrik about moving those Moin installation pages <jsgotangco> mdke, in a stricter sense, it does not jive with overall Ubuntu wiki documentation hence there should at least be a way to classify them <Burgundavia> mdke, in our "main namespace", there should only be docs that pertain to Ubuntu <Burgundavia> and other Ubuntu related stuff <jsgotangco> HelpOnUpdatingPython for example...is very much a Moin issue rather than a Python issue <mdke> those pages are not linked on UserDocumentation <mdke> Burgundavia, there are a lot more than docs in our main namespace <jsgotangco> they may not be, but it doesn't mean its not there :) <Burgundavia> mdke, they can be found via search <Burgundavia> mdke, that is why I killed those InstallationTutorial pages <Burgundavia> read my email <Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com//FrontPage?action=fullsearch&context=180&value=python&titlesearch=Titles <Burgundavia> which are you going to choose? * mdke shrugs <mdke> i'll choose them all and see which one helps <Burgundavia> ouch <Burgundavia> that is a lot of clicking and reading <mdke> i use linux, i'm always clicking and readings :D <Burgundavia> I really want to move non-docs off our wiki <Burgundavia> I have raised this idea before, but got no support <mdke> non docs? <jsgotangco> heck we better prepare a lot of pitchforks for that <mdke> so developments stuff, motu stuff, userpages? <Burgundavia> the udu wiki exists <Burgundavia> lets use it * Burgundavia curses the lack of namespace support <Burgundavia> mediawiki has a nice feature <Burgundavia> Burgundavia is not User:Burgundavia <jsgotangco> yeah the namespace really organizes a lot of stuff <Burgundavia> rejected by upstream as a hack <Burgundavia> fools <jsgotangco> thats why i recommended a client to use mediawiki instead for information stuff <Burgundavia> much better for what we are trying to do <shawarma> Why did we settle on Moin in the first place? <Burgundavia> shawarma, we didn't choose the wiki <Burgundavia> Ubuntu loves python and moin is python <jsgotangco> generally, its a Python application <Burgundavia> moin is faster than mediawiki <shawarma> Oh, right. <Burgundavia> media is also evil PHP <shawarma> I forget: What were we using before? <Burgundavia> Zwiki, more shite <shawarma> Oh, right. <Burgundavia> that had even less features, if that is possible <shawarma> *G* <mdke> Burgundavia, the udu wiki is merging with our wiki <mdke> ditto edubuntu <Burgundavia> seriously? * Burgundavia cries <mdke> yes <mdke> mark's call <Burgundavia> we really really need namespaces <Burgundavia> segregate all the developer stuff to Developer: <mdke> we could use subpages for that <Burgundavia> can we move them all a subpage of Developers ? <Burgundavia> or Development <mdke> it is possible, but I have a hunch that we don't <mdke> don't/won't <jsgotangco> hehehe..even gentoo uses mediawiki... <Burgundavia> yes <Burgundavia> so does the hula-project <jsgotangco> yeah <Burgundavia> they are also looking into wiki<-->docbook stuff <Burgundavia> very seriously <jsgotangco> isnt that what Nat was pushing for? <Burgundavia> he is working with the hula team <Burgundavia> no idea what capacity <Burgundavia> and the mediawiki people are willing to jump to python, if someone codes for them <Burgundavia> they are seriously shortstaffed <jsgotangco> i have a hula live account but it doesnt do pop <jsgotangco> just smtp <Burgundavia> without jumping engines, how can we solve our "too many on one wiki" issue? <Burgundavia> can we realisitically ask all to move all the development stuff to subpages? <mdke> IMHO, no <mdke> i really don't think there is a need <mdke> you can ask them to make intuitive names for pages of course <Burgundavia> categories can help <Burgundavia> can we have subcategories? <Burgundavia> ie, can I move the category MOTU to be under development? <Burgundavia> also the category archive <jsgotangco> hmmm interesting we have a Matthew East in docteam and there's a Matthew West in the Learn Linux project :) <jsgotangco> see you all in a few hours, i'm going to drop by the grocer first... <Burgundavia> oh crap <Burgundavia> stupid god damn CamelCase <Burgundavia> should I move WithFloppies to FromFloppies, to be consistent? <mpt> hi everyone <Burgundavia> salut mpt <mpt> hi Burgundavia, did anything work? <Burgundavia> haven't tried it <Burgundavia> my life is a total disaster right now <mpt> http://davidhull@example.net/help--0/ <mpt> What's up? Anything that can be helped from outside? <Burgundavia> about the only good news I have heard all week is that I am getting a free laptop, courtesy of your boss <Burgundavia> yes, a job would be nice, but canonical has already said no <mpt> heh, cool <rob^> my local lug wants me to give a presentation on Ubunut next meeting <mpt> What did you ask to do? <mpt> (for Canonical) <Burgundavia> bug traige, docs, usability <rob^> anyone know of a good ubuntu style OOo template? <mpt> Burgundavia: Hmm, well we have quite a few volunteers for all those things :-) <Burgundavia> wiki.ubuntu.com/Presentations might have something <rob^> thanks Burgundavia <Burgundavia> mpt, enrico used to do one day a week of wiki gardening * mpt mirrors up <Burgundavia> the spare time I have, I have been dumping into the wiki <mpt> thereby disproving any claim that you need to be paid :-/ <Burgundavia> not really <Burgundavia> if I was paid, I could do a lot more work <mpt> trus <mpt> true, even <mpt> Will you have time to look at the archive before the meeting? <Burgundavia> and the wiki does need it <Burgundavia> sure, will look now <mpt> thanks <Burgundavia> the only major issue that I see right off the bat is length of the headings <Burgundavia> yelp hides the end <mpt> Yes, there's a lot of yelp tweaks I haven't found out how to do yet <mpt> one of the things I want to do is hide the ToC frame <mpt> I thought <?yelp:chunk-depth 0?> would do that, but it got ignored <mpt> and <?yelp:chunk-depth 1?> resulted in the whole document being rendered as a single page <jjesse> doc meeting today right? <mpt> yep, 40 minutes <jjesse> well if i'm not too busy at work it will be the first one i'm actually at :) * Burgundavia grumbles about it being 6:20am here and he is listening to tango <jjesse> bummer about it being early for you <Burgundavia> hey, 22UTC is 7am for Jerome <jjesse> burgundavia you are in the us? <Burgundavia> Canada, west coast <jjesse> ah <Burgundavia> jjesse, where are you? <jjesse> Michigan US <jjesse> so Eastern TIme zone <Burgundavia> ok <rob^> hey, what is the name of the guy who founded Ubuntu again? <Burgundavia> Mark Shuttleworth <rob^> the rich thawe dude <Burgundavia> we need a common about Ubuntu section <Burgundavia> that we can paste into docs <rob^> Hes the guy who went up in space, right? <Burgundavia> correct <rob^> cool <rob^> this presento is comming along.. <Burgundavia> oh, you are doing a presentation for your lug <rob^> yeah <Burgundavia> I did one for LinuxFestNorthWest <Burgundavia> not bad <rob^> they want to use Ubuntu for an installfest comming up <rob^> on software freedom day <Burgundavia> cool <jjesse> OOOO <Burgundavia> my lug still uses FC <Burgundavia> poor bastards who get that <rob^> so does mine <rob^> but I convinced them otherwise <rob^> and they wanted to know more, so yeah.. <mpt> https://shipit.ubuntulinux.org/ <-- wtf <Burgundavia> ok then <Burgundavia> I remember that old wiki * rob^ gets coffee <mpt> MEETING TIME <mpt> Who's here? * highvolt1ge is Jonathan Carter * highvoltage too <mpt> two people? :-) <Burgundavia> the rest will come <mpt> three people! <mpt> Is that a quorum? <rob^> w00t! <Burgundavia> mpt, we meet in #ubuntu-meeting <mpt> ah <Burgundavia> mdke, you there? <Burgundavia> mpt, welcome back <rob^> so umm yeah <jsgotangco> yeah? <rob^> I dunno <rob^> time for bed I think, its 130am <Burgundavia> jsgotangco, did you do a summary for the jul 14th meeting? <rob^> umm I don't think anyone did it did they? <jsgotangco> hmmm i have it somewhere over here but i haven't posted it either... <Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeamMeetingSummary7?action=edit <jsgotangco> these 2 weeks are rather busy on my part <Burgundavia> that is what it should be <Burgundavia> I will make my summary 8 <jsgotangco> alright, ill post it later <rob^> well that sucks, breezy broke my ssh x forwarding :( <Burgundavia> indeed it does <rob^> fudge it * rob^ thinks he might have found a work around <Burgundavia> rob^, you want to email about the yelp main page stuff as well? <rob^> yeah, I'll do in in a while, going to get some sleep first <Burgundavia> sure <Burgundavia> the summary is going out in a few minutes <rob^> good :) <rob^> I'll refer to that <Burgundavia> fix if you see things I left out <Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeamMeetingSummary8?action=show <rob^> man locales are so messed up in breezy atm <rob^> night all <mpt> ... back <jsgotangco> ok guys later..good night <jsgotangco> hmm <jsgotangco> btw <jsgotangco> baz can happen anytime <jsgotangco> its just waiting for us <jsgotangco> night <mpt> So, what did I miss? <carstenh> hi, how do i add comments in a wiki, something like /* comment */ in c++? <jeffsch> use ## at the beginning of each comment line <carstenh> jeffsch: and how do i comment out blocks? <carstenh> ok, then i will use ## to comment out a block, thanks a lot <jeffsch> i don't think you can comment out blocks :( <carstenh> jeffsch: i used ## for this block, thanks a lot again. * mpt finishes reading the meeting log + minutes <mpt> https://launchpad.ubuntu.com/products/ubuntu-help <jjesse> why can't ubuntu get their certificates setup correctly :) sick of warnings :) <mpt> heh <mpt> Not just certificates, but also domain names <mpt> Compare and contrast: <mpt> http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/LaunchpadIntegration <mpt> https://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/LaunchpadIntegration <jjesse> https://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/LaunchpadIntegration doesn't exist <mpt> it did a week ago <mpt> the point is, they're different pages on different sites <jjesse> that's silly <jjesse> https://launchpad.ubuntu.com/products/ubuntu-help/+series/trunk is there a "more" cause its taking forever to loa <jjesse> load <mpt> nothing interesting <mpt> it's quite embarrassing, really <mpt> Launchpad is based around managing code in Bazaar <mpt> but *currently*, it lets upstream developers register code that's in SVN, and code that's in CVS, but *not* code that's in Bazaar <mpt> that'll be fixed in the next month or two <mpt> That's why I put the URL in the description. <jjesse> ah #ubuntu-doc 2005-08-03 <jsgotangco> hello <jsgotangco> venda: chill <venda> morn jsgotangco <jsgotangco> venda: im not in favor of railroading either <venda> well then say so, don't beat around the bush <jsgotangco> (i was actually non-existant in the meeting last night because of my connection <venda> I saw that, I read the log <jsgotangco> badly lagged <venda> I did not see anything on the agenda worth meeting for <venda> the main item seemed to be about localhelp <venda> a discussion that was not even attempted properly on the list <venda> and which it seems is being politically forced down everyones throats <venda> The idea is good, it's just the way they are going about it that is ticking me off <jsgotangco> i would worry more about the content rather than the front for now <jsgotangco> our content is almost non-existant <jsgotangco> at the moment <venda> eactly <venda> if Matthew wants to write and be a help he should do so on the current objectives <venda> smae goes for Burgundavia <venda> not derail current focus <venda> rob^: has done great work <venda> and mpt and Burgundavia can fork, but if they do then they should not defocus the teams <jsgotangco> jeff and i are slowly builing the styleguide <venda> and work on edubuntu is moving forward <venda> it takes time <venda> and focus <jsgotangco> it does <venda> I am very busy now and not paying attention <venda> so I play catchup <venda> but when I see this kind of negative political behaviour it makes me wonder <jdub> venda: i missed the meeting too; what's the 'localhelp' stuff you're concerned about? <venda> See launch pad <jsgotangco> launchpad? <venda> https://launchpad.ubuntu.com/products/ubuntu-help <jsgotangco> oh jeezz <venda> I don't mind the fact that they forked FAQ Guide. That is their choice. <venda> I even think that the idea of the outline is good <venda> I don't think it should be outside svn <venda> I don't think it should position itself as the defacto for ubuntu-help <jsgotangco> faqguide? i agree <venda> I don't think it should impact on license <venda> I don't think it should be defocusing the docteam from DocteamProjects <venda> There is space for localhelp and faqguide in the distro * rob^ pokes head in <venda> morn rob^ <rob^> hey venda <rob^> I take it you got the email? <highvoltage> hi venda <jsgotangco> jdub: busy? <jdub> this is what has been discussed for ages; the document-as-front-page thing <jdub> jsgotangco: yeah <jsgotangco> jdub: ok i just wanted to ask you what can you suggest on a conference presentation geared towards corporate adoption <venda> jdub: no we have discussed that the structure should change <venda> jdub: not that a document will replace it <venda> jdub: we do not see it the way mpt and Burgundavia have put it <venda> jdub: rob^ has indicated what we have in mind and I know that most of the team agrees with that approach <venda> jdub: I like the locahelp outline, but I don't see it as the frontpage of help in Ubuntu <venda> jdub: localhelp is jus one more document type from which users can read to get help <venda> jdub: localhelp should share level 1 in the help system along with faqguide, quickguide, userguide etc <venda> jdub: not take precedence over <venda> jdub: in addition it should be an integral part of docteam work, not an external <venda> jdub: the license issue. GPL is not a documentation licesne <venda> GFDL is <venda> As for the debian argument, I fail to see how debain will use ubuntu localhelp as the default for their own help :-) <venda> Debian just uses their own or that of upstream <venda> such as gnome <venda> or kde <jsgotangco> i'd rather do upstream work for that (which i plan in the future) <venda> jsgotangco: I sometimes think of moving upstream altogether :-) <jdub> venda: the point of the document-as-front-page is to link to all the available documentation; but i'm not going to argue about the specifics <jdub> jsgotangco: (it's highly likely that GNOME will shift to this style of front page in the near future) <jdub> jsgotangco: (rather than just the ooky index) <jsgotangco> jdub: i don't argue with that part of the front page really...yelp is what we have at the moment and the document as front page is the best workaround we currently have imo <jdub> i wouldn't describe it as a workaround (for the front page of a help browser - there are a lot of other issues that need to be fixed that are unrelated to that) <jsgotangco> ah <venda> jdub: we have not agreed that help should use the outline here <venda> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LocalHelp?highlight=%28localhelp%29 <venda> people do not agree that the outline here should be what is the front page <venda> the number of topics in that outline is never ending <venda> and topics are often inter-related <jsgotangco> yeah i told them before its too long for a front page though <venda> what they are trying too do is do a google type of categorization project <venda> so why not just use google <rob^> jsgotangco, yes, as have I <venda> the solution to rapid information retrieval is not another doc. It needs a technological soclution <jsgotangco> our current work are books in structure, but it doesn't mean they should be written like books <venda> search and idex <jdub> venda: you'll note that the proposal specifically raises search and index, and how it is related to the spec <jdub> jsgotangco: right, but that has to be solved differently (and the doc that contains the front page could actually contain the non-book documentation, too) <venda> yes, but that is ok, its just that throwing one more document at an information organization and location problem is not the solution <venda> jdub: how long do you think that outline is going to get <jdub> venda: perhaps not to a problem that you are making up <venda> just off the top of my head I can add another 30 topic <jdub> but a crafted front page is a great way to introduce the help browser <jdub> which is the problem mpt is solving <venda> [09:02] <jdub> venda: perhaps not to a problem that you are making up <venda> jdub: me and others in the team <venda> I don't stand alone in feeling that this is not the way to go <jdub> you didn't define the problem, you just stated that another document is not a solution <venda> dude we have done that in th epast a few times <jdub> the problem being solved is the not-entirely-user-worthy front page of yelp <venda> and the last mesages have indicated what people think <venda> jdub: you want to fix the problem then develop a proper help/documentation viewing system <venda> jdub: don't throw another doc at it <jdub> this solves a small problem in a simple fashion in a small amount of time <venda> the outline of that do is going to be huge <jdub> and regardless of the immediate problem, the help browser will need a crafted front page anyway <venda> and who decides what does in that outline <venda> how many cooks will keep that outline organized <rob^> everytime we change something in one of the docs, we are going to have to check the front page to make sure we are not breaking anything <rob^> what a pain <venda> I give it a few months and the ouline there will be a mess <venda> jdub: we have read and seen mpt's solution <venda> jdub: we have given it considerable thjought <jdub> i don't imagine all of those entries will be on it, nor do i see more being added (it specifically notes that they will be removed) <venda> jdub: it is a start in the direction we need, but it is not the solutiuon we need <jdub> it's a short term solution for a small problem <venda> jdub: who will be the judge of that <venda> jdub: an ugly hack that is not the solution, but just a bigger problem <jdub> okay, so, tell me what the front page of a help browser would be if it were not a crafted document <venda> jdub: what is stopping developers from improving yelp itself <jdub> it is not stopping improvement of yelp <venda> that was not the question <jdub> (in fact, it's pushing it along) <venda> why do developers not develop more on the existing yelp <venda> why do they not change it to solve the problems <jsgotangco> " Until then, it should contain no more than about a dozen subtopics." <jdub> this is a change designed to solve a problem <jsgotangco> fine with me <venda> jdub: who decides the limits <venda> who decides what is the toc and what is not <jdub> we do, based on what we perceive our users need <venda> jdub: there is not limit <venda> jdub: we don't even know what they need <jdub> some are usefully obvious, like "what's new in <current version>" <jdub> that's why we think critically, hypothesise, and make changes based on feedback <rob^> jdub, at the moment thats not whats happening <jdub> the current list is already based on what we know of our users <venda> jdub: hmm, and al animals are equal but some are more equal than others <jdub> (note that i don't believe it's final) <jdub> welcome to user-centric software design <jdub> it's hard <jdub> there's no system <venda> jdub: I would suggest you ask the users? <venda> jdub: nobody has asked them <jdub> well, two answers to that: <jsgotangco> *ahem* we do receive feedback on the list one way or another <jdub> a) users won't give immediately useful answers <venda> jdub: mpt and Burgundavia with a bit of input from some doc people have sucked their thumbs and decided for the mass <jdub> b) what's there is inferred and analysed from existing users <rob^> venda, thats how I see it <jdub> right, and that's what needs to be done to move forward <jdub> then we iterate and improve <venda> jdub: do perform user centric design you need to advertise to users and show them what you mean and request input <jdub> (my first thought is that the language could be clearer, which i'll have to suggest) <jdub> well, for a start, that will happen (to a degree) as soon as it lands <venda> jdub: I must go now. But I have said what I think, if it counts, and I think others have also indictated disatisfaction with the approach to work method and the solution being presented. <jdub> secondly, this sort of thing can be tested without even landing the changes <jdub> but before you do user testing, you have to design something to test <venda> right, but with input from a design team which is not happening <jdub> as far as i can see, mpt and corey are the design team <jdub> and i'm sure they'll accept feedback with good rationale <venda> jdub: they forked FAQGUide and because people did not agree <venda> jdub: they then just forced this approach <jdub> i don't believe that's the sum total of what this line of action means <venda> jdub: its all in the lists and the logs <venda> jdub: it does not have to be. But mpt and Burgundavia are very dictatorial over what happens <venda> which is leaving people with a bad taste <venda> defocuing the team <venda> and fragmenting the effort <jdub> ah yes, dictatorial bad taste <venda> if we did not have issues we would not be discusing them' <venda> people, other than myself, have voiced concern <venda> and they have been brushed off <jsgotangco> i could understand Burgundavia's case but mpt just sprang up all of a sudden <venda> the approach at present smacks of railroading <venda> jsgotangco: we all see Burgundavia case <venda> jsgotangco: we even agree with him in many points <jsgotangco> but not the methodologies <venda> but in the sapce of two days it was bagged and balled <venda> taken as that is the way it will be <venda> like it or love it <venda> argue and we will cut you off at the knees <venda> Oh and just to make sure we will do it all outside of the current structures <jsgotangco> yes just like the crusades... <venda> fuck all of you is written all over this <venda> well my day in the real world must begin <venda> later <jsgotangco> *whew* <jdub> that dude has so much bile <rob^> yes <rob^> but there is a reason behind it <jsgotangco> changes are good but we don't need a revolution <rob^> jsgotangco, agreed <jdub> sounds like everyones assuming the worst <jsgotangco> hmm no not really <jsgotangco> i really like to change the front page really <rob^> as would most people <jsgotangco> but we'd like to be "in the know" at least of what's
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