#ubuntu-manual 2010-03-01 <humphreybc> godbyk, ping <humphreybc> ping vish <humphreybc> new getinvolved page, http://www.flickr.com/photos/humphreybc/4396509533/sizes/o/ <vish> humphreybc: pong <humphreybc> oh hey vish <vish> hi.. <humphreybc> i was thinking of perhaps putting some icons here, instead of the collage of window tools <humphreybc> http://www.flickr.com/photos/humphreybc/4396509533/sizes/o/ <humphreybc> but i think the collage looks nice. do you see anywhere on the website that would benefit from any icons? <vish> hmm , <humphreybc> have a look at the other two pages as well <humphreybc> Ahh, that's what I wanted icons for <humphreybc> at the moment i'm using the same image for the home page and the downloads page <humphreybc> I want a new image for the downloads page <humphreybc> i've sort of exhausted all of the image possibilities on the site already, i've used screenshots from the manual, the title page, the team logo and a collage of screenshots of our tools <vish> humphreybc: seems clean now. IMO , no need icons , and not sure , where they would be required either.. [except "download now" , but that looks good as it is now as well] <humphreybc> cool <humphreybc> and an image for the download page to replace that one i'm using twice? <humphreybc> considering that page gives you the option for a manual in different languages and formats... maybe somehow we can find or create an image that shows that? <vish> humphreybc: the home "download now" and the other do that same thing right? <vish> or does the home one take you to the downloads page? <humphreybc> the home download now button detects your system language and then downloads the correct PDF <humphreybc> the "alternative download options" takes you to the download page <humphreybc> where you can specify a language, edition and printing optimized or not <vish> humphreybc: then , its the same action, its better to leave it sme <vish> same* <humphreybc> righto <IlyaHaykinson> hm, anyone else find the new accessibility tool, erm, lacking, in Lucid Alpha 3? <humphreybc> haven't installed alpha 3 yet <IlyaHaykinson> i'm guessing it'll change a lot before beta, but it means that we need to mention it <humphreybc> vish, so you like the site mockups? <IlyaHaykinson> also, we don't have a section on Gwibber, which is now a default app <humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: this is true <IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc: any thoughts on what to do about our hardware chapter? <IlyaHaykinson> i have not been able to get people to write anything. <IlyaHaykinson> perhaps we can divide it into 8 portions, or however many sections are left, and assign each to a different person. <IlyaHaykinson> ask for progress within 5 days, or something like that, to ensure that we have some progress <humphreybc> that sounds like a good idea <vish> humphreybc: looks nice.. i would probably move the first collage a bit higher in this > http://www.flickr.com/photos/humphreybc/4396509533/sizes/o/ <humphreybc> we need to have a meeting at some point i think <vish> there is a bit of extra space on the top of the collage <IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc: next saturday, probably. <humphreybc> yep, so we're 18 days away from writing freeze <humphreybc> eek <vish> humphreybc: just a bit higher to make the "the manual project" more clearer and unobstructed <IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc: right. so maybe doing it at the meeting is a bit too late <humphreybc> vish, done, it's in the branch but i won't bother re-uploading to flickr <vish> neat.. <humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: hmm. i need to get cracking as well on finishing my installation chapter <humphreybc> what do you think of getting a bunch of people to thoroughly read it about 5 days before writing freeze and then report bugs? <humphreybc> i can ask linda89@example.com to write a post asking for a bunch of testers and we'll get a load of people combing over it and filing bug reports <humphreybc> after dinner tonight i'm going to get cracking on the manual and get some more stuff done <IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc: agreed. though realistically we will need to push the writing freeze further out. <IlyaHaykinson> some apps are still too raw to document properly <IlyaHaykinson> imho <humphreybc> true <humphreybc> maybe writing freeze 31 march? <humphreybc> that's only going to give the translators 20 days till RC to translate stuff though <IlyaHaykinson> perhaps something like a "content freeze", where we stop adding sections etc, and then a full "writing freeze" after beta has been installed and documented. <humphreybc> okay so lucid beta is the 18th <humphreybc> so if we do content freeze say the 20th, writing freeze the 31st <humphreybc> and our beta can be released on the 31st <IlyaHaykinson> let's do 21st and 31st -- the 21st is a Sunday. <humphreybc> okay cool <humphreybc> that gives authors 3 days to observe changes in lucid beta and add or remove sections accordingly <IlyaHaykinson> cool. that should give us enough time to incorporate beta UI changes <IlyaHaykinson> also... I need advice on Open Office. <humphreybc> and then ten days to finish their sections and the editors to clean it up <humphreybc> yeah? <IlyaHaykinson> it's a big undertaking -- i'm still working through Evolution, and OO is large enough to cause tons of headaches. <IlyaHaykinson> also Luke Jennings needs work to do, and we thought about splitting up OO <IlyaHaykinson> but I don't really think we can do OO justice in this timeframe. <IlyaHaykinson> so, my thinking is write literally 5 paragraphs on OO <IlyaHaykinson> have Luke spend time on Gwibber and other apps, or help with the hardware chapter <IlyaHaykinson> and i'll switch to doing editing <IlyaHaykinson> after my sections are done. <IlyaHaykinson> then, either in second edition or by 10.10 we can cover OO in reasonable detail. <IlyaHaykinson> OO does have a lot of help resources available for it, i think, so users shouldn't be left out in the cold. <humphreybc> yep okay that's a good plan <humphreybc> when should we request wide scale testing from readers of omgubuntu? <humphreybc> well, not testing <humphreybc> but bug checking <humphreybc> also, chapter 6 is looking a bit short... <humphreybc> chapter 4 and 6 are the trouble spots <humphreybc> i'll finish the second half of chapter 10 tonight on extra applications <humphreybc> also, for screenshots, i'm not sure we're going to have quickshot ready in time <humphreybc> we may have to manually capture screenshots in english, and then use those in the translated manuals for now <humphreybc> we'll try to capture shots that don't have much text <humphreybc> either that, or pick 5 or 10 "most popular" languages and manually translate screenshots for them <humphreybc> so we'd have 40+ translated manuals, with ten of those having localized screenshots and the rest english screenshots <humphreybc> after the writing freeze we can get all hands to the pumps on a) screenshots and b) translations - and if you only speak english, then you can help advertise and recruit screenshotters :P <humphreybc> oops <humphreybc> recruit translators* <humphreybc> and we'll have to make sure we fully utilize the ubuntu global jam <humphreybc> we could also post on the planet asking for help to translate <humphreybc> we have to give it our best effort <humphreybc> i think we also have to appoint a translator representative so we can communicate with the translators more <humphreybc> also, if we do end up having to choose some languages to get localized screenshots, what would they be? <humphreybc> spanish, german... japanese? <humphreybc> http://geography.about.com/od/culturalgeography/a/10languages.htm <humphreybc> so chinese, spanish, arabic, hindi, portuguese, bengali, russian, japanese and german <IlyaHaykinson> i would choose languages that are different enough. so if we cut this down i would do english, a romance language (spanish, probably); a left-to-right language (arabic), a slavic language (russian), and then chinese. <IlyaHaykinson> actually, also add hindi <humphreybc> yeah <humphreybc> okay <humphreybc> so that's backup plan <humphreybc> quickshot probably won't be ready <humphreybc> so actually: <IlyaHaykinson> that would cover the top 5 localizations, and a ton of people <humphreybc> for screenshots: <humphreybc> PLAN A: Use quickshot to get translated screenshots <humphreybc> PLAN B: Manually capture screenshots for the top 5 localizations <IlyaHaykinson> brb <humphreybc> PLAN C: manually capture screenshots for english and duplicate them in all other languages <IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc: agree with your plans * godbyk yawns. <godbyk> I'm awake now. <godbyk> Gimme a sec and I'll make a test.ubuntu-manual.org site. <godbyk> humphreybc: Okay, so now we have http://ubuntu-manual.org/, http://test.ubuntu-manual.org/, and http://ubuntu-manual.org/builds/. <humphreybc> hey godbyk <godbyk> hey, humphreybc. <humphreybc> i'm liking the build reports! <godbyk> Thanks! <humphreybc> did you host that progress bar somewhere too so i can email it to joey? <humphreybc> i'll email him the website as well with the countdown timer <godbyk> oh, no, I forgot. Where can I get the progress bar again? <humphreybc> branch under team-images <humphreybc> should be there <godbyk> humphreybc: Okay: http://ubuntu-manual.org/progressbar.png <humphreybc> oh i'll make a favicon for the site too <humphreybc> sweet as :) <godbyk> cool <humphreybc> gimme one sec <humphreybc> wolter is going to work on the website now too <humphreybc> :) <humphreybc> how big are favicons? 14x14? <godbyk> humphreybc: 16x16 <humphreybc> ah, 16x16 <humphreybc> :P <godbyk> or a nice binary number. <humphreybc> gah <humphreybc> okay, in the branch under /website/favicon.ico <godbyk> I just wrote a script that'll do a bzr pull every 30 minutes for the website. <humphreybc> and does it build the new manuals every 30 mins? <godbyk> So if things in the website/ dir get updated, they'll appear on test.ubuntu-manual.org <godbyk> nope. <humphreybc> ohhh <godbyk> that's another box. <humphreybc> gotcha <humphreybc> cool! <humphreybc> you da man kevin :) <humphreybc> oh btw, fixed the problem with android dropping all the time. wasn't android's fault, it was our router. changed to WEP and it now works fine, a bit insecure but hey <godbyk> weird. <godbyk> brb. need to find something to eat. <humphreybc> godbyk, check out planet ubuntu: http://planet.ubuntu.com/ <godbyk> cool <humphreybc> oO <humphreybc> the facebook page is missing from the countdown timer links <humphreybc> im just adding it in now <IlyaHaykinson> nice holding page <IlyaHaykinson> i would add a (c) 2010 Ubuntu Manual Team. And license CC-BY-SA <humphreybc> true <humphreybc> i'm trying to add a bigger gap between the "In the meantime you can follow us here:" <humphreybc> and the rest of the stuff <humphreybc> i thought a simple <br> would do it <humphreybc> godbyk, ive made changes to the countdown timer <humphreybc> also i've added in favicons, not sure if they'll show up though <godbyk> So have I. :) <humphreybc> I just stuck them in root :P <humphreybc> haha <humphreybc> well all i did was add in our facebook and planet pages, and shorten some of the descriptions of the links <humphreybc> i also added the copyright and CC-BY-SA at the bottom <humphreybc> still can't get the padding right, not sure what's up. I tried margins and padding but it doesn't seem to have much effect - you can have a play if you like to make it even prettier, i just pushed it <humphreybc> /website/countdown <godbyk> k <humphreybc> :) <humphreybc> does anyone know how we're going to translate the title page? <godbyk> humphreybc: If we use thorwil's simpler title page (which I like a lot), then we can put the whole title page in LaTeX. Then we'd use the actual \author and \title commands (which are already translated). <humphreybc> yeah that sounds like a good idea <humphreybc> i like his title page too :) <godbyk> I still have to fix some translations. <godbyk> I need to find fonts for some, fix bugs in latex code for others, etc. <godbyk> humphreybc: Better? http://ubuntu-manual.org/ <humphreybc> absolutely! <humphreybc> thanks! <humphreybc> check out http://divajutta.com/doctormo/gcweb/ <humphreybc> brett alton is working on that for martin, and brett is going to help us with our website too :) <IlyaHaykinson> nice design <humphreybc> yeah <humphreybc> so he's going to give us a hand with our site <humphreybc> http://brettalton.com <godbyk> cool <godbyk> I'm trying to push a couple website changes,and I'm getting this error: <godbyk> Using saved push location: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual/main/ <godbyk> bzr: ERROR: Cannot lock LockDir(http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual/main/.bzr/branch/lock): Transport operation not possible: http does not support mkdir() <godbyk> Any ideas what that means? <humphreybc> nope <humphreybc> using cli or gc> <humphreybc> ?* <IlyaHaykinson> that sounds like a cli problem <godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: meaning what? <godbyk> oh.. sorry, I missed humphreybc's question about. <godbyk> yeab, cli.. <humphreybc> kk <humphreybc> reason i asked: http://doctormo.ubuntu-ma.us/2010/03/01/launchpad-moving-to-closed-source-auth/ <humphreybc> they seemed to have gone through though kevin <humphreybc> added robots.txt file etc? <godbyk> nope, this is one after that. <humphreybc> heh, i was thinking of left aligning them :P <humphreybc> hey TommyBrunn <TommyBrunn> Hey <humphreybc> we've been playing around with your countdown thing, http://ubuntu-manual.org <humphreybc> also check out http://test.ubuntu-manual.org <TommyBrunn> Yeah, I just saw that. <humphreybc> godbyk: could you get the favicon working for the main site as well? <TommyBrunn> Oh, cool! <humphreybc> TommyBrunn: the test website renders nice in firefox but chrome not so much <humphreybc> but good news is that Brett Alton has offered to help us, http://brettalton.com <TommyBrunn> That's odd. I tried it in webkit, and it looks nice there - and they both use webkit. <TommyBrunn> Whoa, cool! <humphreybc> yeah :) <humphreybc> so we're going to have a kickass site <humphreybc> which is fantastic <godbyk> okay, I copied the diff to another machine and pushed. <humphreybc> godbyk: that's one way around it :P <humphreybc> you can delete the branch in your troublesome machine and unlink bzr... bzr --help <godbyk> the troublesome machine happens to be the web server. :-( <godbyk> I just did a pull --overwite on that machine. <godbyk> hopefully it's happy now <godbyk> the favicons should work.. they exist. <godbyk> though you don't have a <link> tag for them. <TommyBrunn> godbyk: They work. <TommyBrunn> You don't need a link tag for them. <godbyk> TommyBrunn: It's not required because most browsers look automatically, but it's nice to have them anyway. <TommyBrunn> True enough. Add this then: <link rel="shortcut icon" type="image/x-icon" href="/favicon.ico" /> <humphreybc> godbyk: what happened to the progress bar? <godbyk> gah. <godbyk> put the progress bar in the counter subdir and it'll show up <godbyk> sorry. <godbyk> the bzr pull killed it <godbyk> .my internet connection is flaking out on me. <ubuntujenkins> morning all <godbyk> morning, ubuntujenkins <ubuntujenkins> how are you godbky? <godbyk> not too bad. <godbyk> trying to get some more translations working. <ubuntujenkins> cool <ubuntujenkins> I have got some more writing to do and quickshot work <godbyk> Which sections are you writing? <ubuntujenkins> helping with default apps and now some hardware stuff as well <godbyk> ah, gotcha. <godbyk> I think both those chapters need some help. <godbyk> there's a ton of material to cover. <ubuntujenkins> there is so much <godbyk> humphreybc: the progressbar.png file has to be in the countdown/ dir if you want it on ubuntu-manual.org/ <humphreybc> oh really? <godbyk> website/ -> test.ubuntu-manual.org <humphreybc> ah okay <godbyk> website/countdown/ -> ubuntu-manual.org <humphreybc> kk <godbyk> 'cause *someone* didn't want the website up yet. :-P <humphreybc> :D <godbyk> humphreybc: should be there now. <humphreybc> it is indeed :) <humphreybc> thanks! <humphreybc> righto fellas, i'm off to bed <humphreybc> if brett alton shows up and wants to know about the website, give him everything he needs and help him get the stuff to work on it <humphreybc> other than that, priority is on writing and editing :) <humphreybc> i'll be back this time tomorrow and hopefully i'll have time to crack into writing myself <humphreybc> oh and also, any last minute feedback on Lernid etc, if people could please post that in the thread and i'll forward it to the relevant people in 24 hours time <dutchie> hi all <godbyk> hey, dutchie <humphreybc> jmburgess: you're still alive! <dutchie> humphreybc: how can you be 10 minutes late for a tutorial that starts on Thursday? <humphreybc> haha <humphreybc> no no, i turned up for the tutorial today and if it was on I would have been 10 minutes late <humphreybc> but it wasn't on, so i wasn't 10 minutes later <dutchie> oh <humphreybc> late* <dutchie> hehe <humphreybc> right i better get a move on to my next lecture <humphreybc> i just dropped $140NZD on a computer architecture text book <humphreybc> sounds like a fun class... but $140 text books are not cool <dutchie> how much is $140 in proper money? <humphreybc> divide it by 2.5 <dutchie> Â£56 <humphreybc> yup <dutchie> really? 2.5? <dutchie> that's quite a lot <humphreybc> i know <ubuntujenkins> thats a tipical uk price <humphreybc> that's why so many UK peeps immigrate to NZ :P <dutchie> heh * dutchie is staying here for the foreseeable future <humphreybc> haha <dutchie> might have a punt at US places for a masters though <dutchie> I'll see what happens <humphreybc> haha <humphreybc> okay <humphreybc> k catch you later folks <ubuntujenkins> se ya * ubuntujenkins files a quickshot bug because I can't solve it 3 days later sorted lol * dutchie updates the translations before going to bed * ubuntujenkins has fixed all of the quickshot bugs <dutchie> ubuntujenkins: I very much doubt you've found the Last Bug <ubuntujenkins> I mean all of the quckshot bugs that are know off :-) if filled the two i just fixed I couldn't fix them a few days ago <ubuntujenkins> We are going to have so much fun whe resolution change is fully implimented :-) <dutchie> do you still want lshw/xrandr output on that ML thread? <ubuntujenkins> I have yours already I think xrandr -s 800x600 works for you? <ubuntujenkins> thansk :-) <dutchie> I didn't post anything <ubuntujenkins> I got yours on irc about a week ago <ubuntujenkins> you have intel if i remeber rightly * dutchie sends anyway <ubuntujenkins> thanks dutchie <days_of_ruin> From the quickshot wiki: "Quickshot creates a new user called "quickshot" with the password "quickshot." The user is told to log in as "quickshot."" What kind of user is that? #ubuntu-manual 2010-03-02 <godbyk> humphreybc: I don't think I've edited any Polish translations lately. The only time I touch the translations is when I'm fixing some LaTeX code that's screwed up. :) <humphreybc> godbyk, hmm? <godbyk> humphreybc: re: the email you forwarded to the list. <humphreybc> oh right <humphreybc> now i've got ya <humphreybc> only just found it in my spam toay <humphreybc> today* <IlyaHaykinson> godbyk: what's the easiest way to create some vertical space between paragraphs? <IlyaHaykinson> is that something you should do, globally, or the writers need to do? <IlyaHaykinson> i would prefer to put some space between all the paragraphs; they run too closely together. <humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson_: ping <IlyaHaykinson_> humphreybc: hi <humphreybc> i just committed but then got a diverged branch thing because i forgot to pull first <humphreybc> could you make a backup of what you just edited <humphreybc> in case i overwrite it <humphreybc> i don't think i will <IlyaHaykinson_> hm, i don't think that's possible <IlyaHaykinson_> if you do bzr merge, it should merge it cleanly <IlyaHaykinson_> so commit -- if it looks like it undid what i edited, i'll back up my stuff and re-commit or something <humphreybc> cool * IlyaHaykinson_ is working on a major edit of the software packaging chapter <humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson_: care to share some details on that edit? <IlyaHaykinson_> just trying to bring some better organization to the writing. it kind of jumps around from simple to complex to simple <ubuntujenkins> hello IlyaHaykinson_, <ubuntujenkins> I will have to spend a few days on using Gwibber for my self and currently it doesn't load for me. I will make a start on the hardware section. What are the other people for that chapter doing? The blueprint doesn't say. <IlyaHaykinson_> humphreybc: just pushed my change; more work later. if wolter logs in -- i think he'll need to do some rework there to bring this chapter up to shape, i think <IlyaHaykinson_> or i'll continue editing some more. <IlyaHaykinson_> ubuntujenkins: let me check <ubuntujenkins> thanks <ubuntujenkins> Il be back in 15 mins <IlyaHaykinson_> ubuntujenkins: I think the highest priorities for hardware are printing and sound <humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson_: I think wolter might have lost some interest in the project, but we'll see. <IlyaHaykinson_> see my proposed outline at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Blueprints/Hardware <IlyaHaykinson_> though note that it may not be complete (i.e. maybe we need more sections than what i included here) <IlyaHaykinson_> humphreybc: hm, but he was committing website things, wasn't he? <humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson_: i'm going to finish chapter 1 and 10 by the end of this week, been meaning to do it for the last few days but just haven't had the time <humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson_: yeah he was, i think he might just be tired of writing? Not sure, I haven't asked him, I thought his section was finished. Maybe he thinks it's finished too <IlyaHaykinson_> humphreybc: ok. i think chapter 10 needs some TLC <IlyaHaykinson_> some of the apps need to be removed (i.e. pitivi, since it's a default app now) <humphreybc> yeah i know <humphreybc> that's what i'm planning on working on <IlyaHaykinson_> some apps need better directions (chrome is supposedly in the software center now) <IlyaHaykinson_> and, i think more importantly, need to align some of this with use cases <IlyaHaykinson_> rather than just being a list of things <humphreybc> true <humphreybc> so like examples of why people might want to use these apps? <IlyaHaykinson_> hm... * IlyaHaykinson_ is looking at the chapter and thinking... <IlyaHaykinson_> i'm kind of thinking out loud here, so bear with me. <IlyaHaykinson_> why do people install new software? <IlyaHaykinson_> they are either 1) looking to use an alternative to something they already have <IlyaHaykinson_> 2) trying to do something they cannot do (very well or at all) with existing software <IlyaHaykinson_> 3) doing it for fun or learning <IlyaHaykinson_> so maybe we can organize it kind of like that.... first, have a few alternatives <IlyaHaykinson_> so have an alternative web browser, an alternative office suite, an alternative IM client, an alternative mail client <IlyaHaykinson_> (chrome/chromium, abiword(?), pidgin, thunderbird would be my suggestions here) <IlyaHaykinson_> and either list a few other alternatives with no detail, for each category, or point the reader towards some web reource <IlyaHaykinson_> then, list a few other things to do with Ubuntu. things like audio editing make sense (though is Jokosher really the most popular one? i thought Audacity is...) <IlyaHaykinson_> i would basically look through the web sites whcih aggregate software center applications <IlyaHaykinson_> and look for some popular categories of things people do with Ubuntu / Linux <IlyaHaykinson_> and then i would also list a few popular linux games, maybe. <IlyaHaykinson_> i don't really know anything about those... <IlyaHaykinson_> (for the first category -- replacement apps -- VLC also works well in this group) <IlyaHaykinson_> or, we can think of it this way: <IlyaHaykinson_> 1) How to use different applications to do the same thing 2) How to do other things with Ubuntu, 3) How to become a more advanced user <IlyaHaykinson_> where 1) and 2) are basically what i was describing before <humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson_: I'm still here, reading, just going to grab some stuff from the dairy, back in 5 then i'll have a chat about it with you <IlyaHaykinson_> and 3) is for thigns like Gnome Do, and Wine, and Virtualbox <thorwil> IlyaHaykinson_: good thinking. <IlyaHaykinson_> humphreybc: going to Willowbank? * IlyaHaykinson_ is proud of his mad google stalking skillzz. <thorwil> IlyaHaykinson_: i'd think Jokosher is rather at the fringe, Audacity is widely known, even in Windows-land <ubuntujenkins> IlyaHaykinson I shall get started on what I can. I did a clean install the other day an empathy wasn't there has it been removed as a default ap? <IlyaHaykinson_> ubuntujenkins: hm, wait, really?? <IlyaHaykinson_> hm. i last did a full install with alpha 2, i think <IlyaHaykinson_> and it was definitely there then <ubuntujenkins> yes it wasn't there I did a clean install about 3 days ago <IlyaHaykinson_> i know they added gwibber <IlyaHaykinson_> but not at the expense of empathy, i think. it was a whole big thing when they went from pidgin to empathy in 9.10, so i would doubt they'd get rid of it right away <IlyaHaykinson_> especially when empathy is actually under rather active development by the gnome ppl <ubuntujenkins> there was a bug which ment the ubuntu image was larger than a cd, they could have missed it out as a tempoary thing <IlyaHaykinson_> must be a bug: http://www.starryhope.com/linux/ubuntu/2010/4-cool-new-features-in-ubuntu-lucid-lynx-alpha-3/ <IlyaHaykinson_> person says that empathy now (i.e. alpha 3) includes facebook chat <IlyaHaykinson_> so certainly must be a bug. * ubuntujenkins remebers to write about facebook chat <IlyaHaykinson_> OOH! that same article says iphone / ipod touch work with rhythmbox now. <IlyaHaykinson_> i will need to find a way to test that out. i remember in 9.04 days i tried to get my sister's iphone to work with ANYTHIGN in Ubuntu, and failed <IlyaHaykinson_> had to switch her machine to Windows 7 beta <ubuntujenkins> thats a move in the right direction <IlyaHaykinson_> thorwil: re Audacity / Jokosher, ok, glad that i'm not the only one <humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson_: scary... yes just come back with a bag of chips, two bags of lollies and a block of chocolate. :) give me a couple of minutes to read what i missed <IlyaHaykinson_> humphreybc: just wait until satellites offer live video. then it'll be --really-- freaky. <humphreybc> jokosher is more user friendly and garageband like than audacity, that's why i chose it <humphreybc> i don't know anything about linux games either, other than googling "top ten linux games" <ubuntujenkins> ianto I have been asked to help with chapter 4, I knoticed you authored a part which parts are you writing? * IlyaHaykinson_ had to look up what "lollies" were. apparently it's an AU / NZ term <humphreybc> i think we do need a section on Wine, at least describing what it is and where they can get more help <IlyaHaykinson_> humphreybc: sure, Wine could definitely fit into the "how to become a more advanced user" type of a section <IlyaHaykinson_> wine on its own is easy <humphreybc> pidgin > empathy <IlyaHaykinson_> but _troubleshooting_ wine requires a bit of black magic <IlyaHaykinson_> that is definitely beyond the grasp of beginners <humphreybc> lollies = candy :) <IlyaHaykinson_> so we'd want to put that, as well as virtual machines, behind some sort of a "here's how you grow to be an advanced user" type of a section <IlyaHaykinson_> humphreybc: nod. after looking it up, now i know! <humphreybc> okay, so, i like your three section idea <IlyaHaykinson_> and re pidgin > empathy, i completely agree. but, alas, empathy does D-Bus <humphreybc> the second 3 section idea <humphreybc> but we need to rephrase the three sections <humphreybc> D-Bus? <IlyaHaykinson_> yes, please don't treat my section names as gospel. they were just off the top of my head <humphreybc> so "Alternatives to default apps" <ubuntujenkins> I think mention wine in about five to ten line, ie this is wine you can use it to......... to find out more google wine.... <humphreybc> haha, yeah i know :) <IlyaHaykinson_> D-Bus is the (new) way for parts of the user interface to share data <IlyaHaykinson_> so for example, Evolution tells the notifier application that there's new email using D-Bus <IlyaHaykinson_> anyone else can listen to the same message, in theory, and react in their own way. <humphreybc> "Extra specialized applications" for section 2 <IlyaHaykinson_> Empathy speaks to D-Bus when there are new IMs <humphreybc> and maybe "Advanced applications" or something <IlyaHaykinson_> and new multimedia messages etc <IlyaHaykinson_> so it integrates really well with the gnome desktop <IlyaHaykinson_> not just now, but moving forward <humphreybc> but to be honest, those three titles are fairly blurred <IlyaHaykinson_> whereas the Pidgin folks didn't want to go in that direction (for some reason.... nto sure on the details) <IlyaHaykinson_> so, Empathy won out. let's hope it gets developed rapidly. * humphreybc gummy sharks nom nom <humphreybc> Ahh, TommyBrunn, have a look at /website/wolter-remake <IlyaHaykinson_> humphreybc: what about "Finding alternatives to default applications", an "Extending Ubuntu"? <humphreybc> wolter has used asciidoc to create HTML files for the site... not sure why, but he seemed to think it was the cool thing to do <IlyaHaykinson_> with Extending... being the 2 and 3 together <humphreybc> yeah combining 2 and 3 is good <humphreybc> do we need the "Finding"? <humphreybc> just "Alternatives to default applications" could work? <IlyaHaykinson_> well, i like having titles that contain a verb in gerund form. <humphreybc> but hang on <IlyaHaykinson_> otherwise it has no linda89@example.com. <humphreybc> we've already given them the means to find alternative apps by explaining the software store <humphreybc> so what we're *really* doing is recommending some *good* apps <IlyaHaykinson_> true. <IlyaHaykinson_> good point <IlyaHaykinson_> ok, your title (no "Finding") is fine. <humphreybc> hmm <humphreybc> but even then, we need to explain that these are recommendations based on... what? <humphreybc> sort of like "Chef's choice" in a restaurant... <humphreybc> we've just taken a few apps that *we* have decided * humphreybc realizes that if he is ever going to get round to watching the movie that he's had for a few days, he'd have to do it now <IlyaHaykinson_> well, if you remember my talk/slides, and the style guide, it's ok for us to be slightly opinionated. <humphreybc> yep <IlyaHaykinson_> i would err on the side of most commonly used alternatives <humphreybc> yeah <IlyaHaykinson_> and/or the most mature / complete alternatives <humphreybc> that's a better way of putting it <IlyaHaykinson_> those should generally overlap <IlyaHaykinson_> and also we don't need to be exclusive <humphreybc> okay, so, list of alternatives <humphreybc> firstly, what are the main default apps people want alternatives for? <IlyaHaykinson_> we can do a paragraph on Chrome, but then list (one word each) the next three popular web browsers (i dunno... epiphany, konqueror, elinks???) <humphreybc> me personally, firefox, pidgin, GIMP, F-Spot <IlyaHaykinson_> GIMP is standard, is it not? <IlyaHaykinson_> oh. <humphreybc> oh wait <IlyaHaykinson_> you mean alternatives <humphreybc> it's not anymore <humphreybc> yeah <humphreybc> so to get a list of alternatives, we have to start off with a list of stuff they're replacing <IlyaHaykinson_> GIMP isn't? hmm. it was in alpha 1 at least, possibly alpha 2 <IlyaHaykinson_> ah, you are right. <humphreybc> so on my fresh install i remove F-Spot, empathy and install chrome, digiKam and pidgin <IlyaHaykinson_> ok, gimp isn't really an alternative. <ubuntujenkins> gimp isn't in lucid <IlyaHaykinson_> it's more an add on (i.e. for "extending") <humphreybc> yeah, gimp would come under the second bit <humphreybc> the extension bit * humphreybc ahh, the sweet smell of progress <IlyaHaykinson_> ok, so firefox -> chrome (+konqueror, epiphany) <humphreybc> well, opera? <IlyaHaykinson_> opera isn't open source. i'd leave this at open source apps for now <humphreybc> midori? <IlyaHaykinson_> flock? <humphreybc> teminal? <IlyaHaykinson_> we can check what the most popular linux browsers are. <humphreybc> terminal ftw <humphreybc> http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/k4qQtQHrDz <IlyaHaykinson_> hang on, i'll check on my work's google analytics <humphreybc> let's move this to a pad :) * humphreybc has finished one bag of lollies <thorwil> vish: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/hgBlhqyoMH <IlyaHaykinson_> alright, gnite folks. <ubuntujenkins> night <vish> thorwil: those are the list of icons required , right? <thorwil> vish: i'm not sure if Ben had only that level in mind, but one level deeper would be too many <vish> yeah.. <vish> i'll collect the icons e already have and add it to the branch <vish> s/e/the <thorwil> vish: so i added lists for what's all in each chapter as # comments <vish> argh! e=we <thorwil> vish: and finally the few ideas i have <thorwil> vish: Default Applications, Troubleshooting and Learning_more make me wonder if we should really do it at all * vish nods <vish> hmm , whats wrong with bzr :/ <godbyk> thorwil, vish: for the installation chapter: do most people know what a hard drive looks like? might be better of going with a CD (as in the install CD) instead. <vish> that would work too <thorwil> perhaps <vish> godbyk: whats wrong with bzr? it doesnt allow me to pull <godbyk> vish: lemme try. <vish> keeps saying some crap about my unprotected key file :/ <thorwil> godbyk: the "harddrive" would be just a box in that icon style, anyway <vish> why does it care :/ <godbyk> vish: it's working for me. <godbyk> vish: ah, make sure the permissions of your .ssh/id_rsa file are 644. <godbyk> er, sorry, 600. <vish> hmm , is this something new? <godbyk> vish: I think ssh complains if the permissions are other. <godbyk> Not sure if that's what the actual problem is or not. <godbyk> Just taking a shot in the dark. <vish> worked so long with the same perms <thorwil> vish: you are not protecting your key file? do you not think about how it must feel, neglected and without cover? <vish> bleh ;p <godbyk> lol * thorwil -> coffee <godbyk> vish: The ~/.ssh dir should be 700, also. <vish> funny thing is it worked so long , not sure if the file permissions changed or bzr changed <godbyk> did that fix it? <vish> i havent tried yet , will be doing it in a sec <godbyk> k <godbyk> thorwil: Have you done anything more with the cover page or are we still waiting on some big announcement from Ubuntu? <godbyk> (just curious, not pressuring!) :-) <vish> godbyk: is there a way to read the file permissions as numbers rather than using ls -l ? <godbyk> vish: I don't know of one, but it wouldn't surprise me if it existed. <godbyk> the .ssh dir should be rwx------ <godbyk> the .ssh/id_rsa file should be rw------- <vish> yeah , right now it is 644 , need to change that <godbyk> vish: chmod 700 ~/.ssh; chmod 600 ~/.ssh/id_rsa <vish> yup just did that <vish> hmm , now it works <vish> i mean bzr works now.. but i hadnt changed the file permissions , wonder what did that <vish> the directory was having the right permissions already , but not sure how the key file permissions got changed.. <godbyk> vish: good question! <vish> there is a bug in gnome-keyring , maybe it is related <vish> lucid got a gnome-keyring update , that is causing a lot of havoc.. but thats a long shot <vish> nope , not it , the update predates my last bzr interaction <godbyk> I just updated http://ubuntu-manual.org/builds/ for anyone who cares. <thorwil> godbyk: no, yes <godbyk> thorwil: heh. understood. <BlessJah> hi, i'm currently translating ubuntu manual <BlessJah> \providecommand{\polang}{en} what should be translated here? <BlessJah> should I translate last part? {en} to {pl}? <godbyk> BlessJah: Nope, you should leave that line as-is. <BlessJah> what does this line means? <godbyk> BlessJah: The \providecommand line? It means: "if the \polang command hasn't already been define, define is to mean 'en'." <godbyk> When you run 'make ubuntu-manual-pl.pdf', it sets '\def\polang{pl}'. <godbyk> then \polang is passed in as \documentclass[lang=\polang]{ubuntu-manual} <BlessJah> ok, so it shouldn't be changed into {pl} <godbyk> so it's telling the manual what language is being compiled. <godbyk> BlessJah: The \providecommand line is just setting 'en' as the default language if a language hasn't already been set. <godbyk> BlessJah: But the language is being set in the Makefile. <BlessJah> ok <BlessJah> thx <godbyk> So you can leave the \providecommand line alone. It doesn't need to be changed. <godbyk> BlessJah: no problem. :) <humphreybc> TommyBrunn: ping <komsas> godbyk: if I wrote in translation dash, it is better to change it to /dash? <komsas> he, my ping killed him. :) <komsas> dutchie: do you know something about this? <dutchie> if you are translating \dash{text}, put \dash{translated text} <komsas> no, there no dash in english line, but in our translation is <komsas> what to do in this position? <dutchie> oh, so your language has a dash where there is not one in the English? <komsas> yes * dutchie is unsure <komsas> it is problem? * dutchie is not really in ubuntu-manual mode atm <dutchie> just put \dash for now, godbyk will complain if it's wrong <komsas> oh dutchie, sorry I did read your question right <komsas> we have same dash <humphreybc> you don't want to translate the command, but the text inside the command (the braces) <dutchie> could you show us the text you are translating? <dutchie> it should give a file reference iirc <komsas> but I'm asking if there no dash in english string and I use dash like "-" in lithuanian translation, it is better to use latex command or I can use "-" <dutchie> just use your initiative for now <dutchie> ask godbyk when he's back <komsas> ok dutchie , thanks u <humphreybc> ubuntujenkins: ping * humphreybc is meeting up with Launchpad's release manager for coffee this afternoon * dutchie thinks that writing a python program to do his physics homework was overkill * humphreybc thinks that if dutchie likes python so much mebbe he should help with quickshot <humphreybc> :P <dutchie> :P <dutchie> I have been providing ubuntujenkins with hints <humphreybc> lol <dutchie> and I have a copy of the branch <humphreybc> okay cool <humphreybc> i'm fearing for the screenshots now <dutchie> I never really got round to working out how quickly works properly <humphreybc> me neither, all i use is quickly run and quickly glade :D * dutchie is busy using E = mcÂ² for now <humphreybc> hehe <humphreybc> dutchie, fire stuff at me for a to do list <humphreybc> for the project <humphreybc> like, detailed stuff <humphreybc> not "complete chapter 10" <humphreybc> and not just for me <humphreybc> i'm putting it on the wiki <humphreybc> in response to comment from Chris Lees, http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2010/03/omg-ubuntu-manual-project-gets-website.html <dutchie> oh god <dutchie> more publicity <humphreybc> more publicity, yes <humphreybc> :) <humphreybc> also there's a quickshot post going up soon too <dutchie> btw, ubuntu-manual.org is full of fail on IE7 <dutchie> not sure if we should care <humphreybc> ubuntujenkins: https://edge.launchpad.net/tarmac <humphreybc> really? <humphreybc> screenshot please? <dutchie> don't have a windows box handy now <dutchie> hmm, everything works fine up to the point where I convert from J to MeV <humphreybc> me neither <humphreybc> lol <humphreybc> ill ask my flatmate if he's around <dutchie> ah, I had the charge on an electron as 1.6e-29 <ubuntujenkins> humphreybc and dutchie I am just finishing a group meeting I will talk in ten mins when I get home if thats ok <dutchie> silly me <ubuntujenkins> see you in the? <ubuntujenkins> *ten <humphreybc> sure <komsas> godbyk: If I want to use dash in translation, but there is no dash in english line, it is better to use latex code /dash or I can use "-" ? <humphreybc> hi Red_HamsterX :) <Red_HamsterX> Hi. <Red_HamsterX> So, as shadwick was asking, what do you need help with? <Red_HamsterX> Aside from grabbing screencaps. <humphreybc> so, basically the manual project is to create a fully fledged, community based, up to date beginners manual with 200 pages, 50 screenshots or so and 40+ languages <humphreybc> well practically everything - we've only got one python developer working on it, TommyBrunn <humphreybc> and ubuntujenkins is working on it too <humphreybc> i'm trying my best to help with the UI <humphreybc> but the main problem we have is time <shadwick> hello <humphreybc> because the manual needs to be ready for Lucid, we need the screenshots before the 20th April <humphreybc> getting 2000 consistent screenshots in 40+ languages is a hard undertaking <humphreybc> so i came up with the idea for quickshot <humphreybc> which automates a lot of the process <ubuntujenkins> back again <shadwick> I think it's a great idea <humphreybc> we also need the default ubuntu theme for Lucid, so it creates a new user etc * ubuntujenkins checks logs <humphreybc> shadwick: thanks. we're hoping to make it flexible enough so that other documentation projects can use it too. <Red_HamsterX> I shouldn't have any trouble dedicating a system for the beta releases. <Red_HamsterX> And I'm not bad with Python (linda89@example.com). <TommyBrunn> Red_HamsterX: Even if you don't have a spare system, you could probably do it in a virtual machine. <humphreybc> but at the moment we're in a bit of trouble because a) I came up with the idea too late (my fault) and b) we've only got two people working on it actively, it's proving more complicated than anticipated <humphreybc> our project has a huge emphasis on simplicity <Red_HamsterX> But I'm very short on time. <ubuntujenkins> right well I can say I need serious help :-0 <Red_HamsterX> That's what I meant TommyBrunn. <Red_HamsterX> +comma <humphreybc> we want to make it as easy as possible for contributors to help with UMP, so we have a tonne of stuff in place to make it easy for them to help out. That's what we want to do with Quickshot, make it so anyone can use it <Red_HamsterX> What do you need the most help with, Python-wise, TommyBrunn, ubuntujenkins? <humphreybc> we'd like it ready for the Ubuntu Global Jam so we can get hundreds of people screenshotting <godbyk> komsas: Use \dash. * ubuntujenkins has spent 3.5 hours staring at a ~1000 cell spreedsheet * komsas going to change translation.. <humphreybc> Red_HamsterX, shadwick, how much do you guys know about bzr and launchpad? <TommyBrunn> Currently we pretty much need help with everything. The first thing that springs to mind though, is a way to parse the screenshots branch and somehow serialize the information for each screenshot. <ubuntujenkins> so that I can add the screen res detect to main I really need a timer mecahnism <Red_HamsterX> humphreybc, I'm a bit weak on bzr, though I'm very familiar with svn. <ubuntujenkins> I am looking at the bzr lark <TommyBrunn> See, every screenshot will have some sort of information on what should be in it, what language it should be in, etc. <humphreybc> i'm meeting up with the release manager for launchpad today for coffee <Red_HamsterX> I was working with the Ubuntu documentation team in preparation for 5.04, so Launchpad's mostly familiar. <Red_HamsterX> Though it's changed a fair bit since then. <TommyBrunn> We need to somehow format that in a consistent manner, so that it can be read by Quickshot. <ubuntujenkins> there are branches for each language here https://code.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual-screenshots?field.lifecycle=ALL <humphreybc> to discuss the best way to work with the data on launchpad. he has suggested https://launchpad.net/tarmac <ubuntujenkins> I have written a script to merge them to main. I will look at tarmac tomorrow <humphreybc> of course we want consistency across all of our translated manuals and within the manuals themselves - which means that stuff like dpi, resolution, theme etc have to be pre-determined and set correctly <humphreybc> ubuntujenkins: oh nice you've done some of the languages :D <ubuntujenkins> you have to change the status to any status the merging means they change status to merged but they still work <ubuntujenkins> if they add any more languages :P <TommyBrunn> Anyway, I need to be off to bed now. I'm sick as a dog, and so I need all the rest I can get. Hopefully I can be of more help once I get better. If there are any questions that ubuntujenkins or humphreybc can't answer, feel free to email them to linda89@example.com@gmail.com <humphreybc> yep, and also email me at linda89@example.com or catch me on google talk - it goes to my cellphone and i'll reply pretty much immediately unless i'm asleep <ubuntujenkins> Red_HamsterX I could really do with some help with one last bit on the screen resolution stuff then it can go into main for testing <shadwick> well as cool as this project is, I don't think I'll be able to help out <shadwick> best of luck though <Red_HamsterX> ubuntujenkins, just point me at the code and leave a "todo" block of comments and I'll see what I can hack out. I'm in UTC-7. <ubuntujenkins> I will give you an explination and add TODOs in a moment, my branch is untidy as I use it for experiments. <Red_HamsterX> I'll do my best to mirror your style. <ubuntujenkins> thats sounds good though. <ubuntujenkins> it fine I will add all of the screen res change to a seperatef ile for main <ubuntujenkins> I am just changing permissons for my branch <Red_HamsterX> (I'll likely be unable to do much today, though. I won't be home 'til late and I need to be up early tomorrow. I'll look over the code and make note of what I already know how to do, though) <humphreybc> Red_HamsterX: if you want to just hang out in here and we can chat about quickshot stuff. i have to update the wiki at some point too <humphreybc> sweet <ubuntujenkins> are you on the quickshot devs team? Red... <humphreybc> so, our target completion date is the 18th March for a working version, 31st March for a stable version <humphreybc> I know that's less than 3 weeks away <humphreybc> we have a plan B if quickshot isn't ready <humphreybc> Red_HamsterX: what's your lp username and i'll add you to the quickshot devs <humphreybc> ubuntujenkins: should we make it an open team <humphreybc> ? <Red_HamsterX> I figured I'd just give you patches like with most other projects. <ubuntujenkins> erm can we add more people who can approve members? <humphreybc> yeah i'll make you an admin <humphreybc> and Tommy <ubuntujenkins> Red_Hamster my e-mail is linda89@example.com <ubuntujenkins> cheers ben <Red_HamsterX> https://edge.launchpad.net/~red-hamsterx <ubuntujenkins> Red_Hamster bzr branch lp:~quickshotdevs/quickshot/luke-quickshot is my branch I will make some changes before I go to bed <Red_HamsterX> You should be able to get what you need from that. <Red_HamsterX> I'm on Google linda89@example.com@gmail.com. <humphreybc> what's your real name for my contacts list? <Red_HamsterX> Neil Tallim; it's what I broadcast anyway. <humphreybc> sweet * humphreybc needs to have lunch soon <humphreybc> Red_HamsterX: I'm +13 btw <humphreybc> NZ <dutchie> \o/ <Red_HamsterX> That explains why you said 'lunch' and not 'sleep'. <ubuntujenkins> when the user clicks the button to change their resolution a new window pops up. In this window there is a button that has to be to clicked with in seconds or they are logged out. The 15 seconds deley doesn't exist I know the loog out command <dutchie> http://media.joshh.co.uk/graph.png produced using 75 lines of Python <ubuntujenkins> @ Red_HamsterX <manualbot> ubuntujenkins: Error: "Red_HamsterX" is not a valid command. <Red_HamsterX> Lawl, bot. * ubuntujenkins is tired <dutchie> don't be mean to manualbot <ubuntujenkins> I will point out I have all most no python linda89@example.com. with help from dutchie #python and #ubuntu-app-devel is how I have got stuff this far <humphreybc> i'm taking a python paper but only just started, so i'm fairly useless too <ubuntujenkins> I had done a little past hello world about 2 years ago and now I am trying to help on a program <dutchie> humphreybc: there are other Ubuntu people in NZ? <dutchie> wow <Red_HamsterX> I contribute patches against the issue-tracker when I can, so I can probably help compensate. <humphreybc> dutchie, yes there are! even one or two canonical employees <humphreybc> mpt is from NZ :) <dutchie> yeah, but he's in a proper country now <dutchie> :P <ubuntujenkins> I am adding coments to my branch now <humphreybc> dutchie: .. <humphreybc> Red_HamsterX: added you as a member of Quickshot devs <Red_HamsterX> Who's mpt? <humphreybc> also, guys, just a heads up - there's a post going up on omgubuntu.co.uk very soon about quickshot and asking for help with the python - so if we get an influx of people wanting to help, that's where they're from :) <Red_HamsterX> Wow. Dev access after fifteen minutes. That's a first. <Red_HamsterX> What if I'm, like, totally malicious? <humphreybc> we trust you :) <humphreybc> (btw our project is a bit weird because i'm in charge) <humphreybc> :) <Red_HamsterX> Weird's good. <humphreybc> mpt is one of the lead Ubuntu UI designers for Canonical <dutchie> he's head of the User Interaction team iirc <Red_HamsterX> Ah. Then I have not spoken with him. <humphreybc> yeah, good guy <dutchie> I have attended a talk by him <humphreybc> dutchie: UDS-M is in brussels, feel like making a trip there? <humphreybc> also, Red_HamsterX, ubuntujenkins, look into: https://edge.launchpad.net/tarmac <dutchie> not espaecially if I have to pay <ubuntujenkins> on my to do list already <dutchie> I was going to have a vague look at dates and things <humphreybc> http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/aA6ygCXL9F << to do list <humphreybc> (for new contributors, will go on the wiki) <humphreybc> Luke, can you add some quickshot stuff for our new python peeps? <humphreybc> godbyk: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/aA6ygCXL9F <ubuntujenkins> I will try to my list is getting longer by the day I am also wrting more for other chapters as well <ubuntujenkins> bit like your ben :-) <dutchie> email me a list of things you need doing, and I may investigate <humphreybc> heh <dutchie> but it is now bedtime <humphreybc> i'm spending so much time talking to people nowadays <Red_HamsterX> You are. <Red_HamsterX> Ooh. A real-time notepad. Neat. <dutchie> it has also been called "Multiplayer notepad" * Red_HamsterX waits for Launchpad to finish its GPG propagation stuff. <godbyk> humphreybc: Is what's-his-name going to be doing our site or what's the story there. Looks like Wolter's been busy hacking on it. No sense having two people running in different directions. <godbyk> (I haven't looked at Wolter's site yet.) <humphreybc> haven't heard from brett alton yet <humphreybc> so for now it's wolter <godbyk> 'kay. <godbyk> should I switch the test site to wolter's dir sometime? <ubuntujenkins> Red_HamsterX I have updated my branch please don't merge it with main as there is some trickry going on in it that will be messed up. There is a TODO in line 223 <ubuntujenkins> thanks :-) <humphreybc> godbyk, maybe in a couple of days <humphreybc> yeah so i don't know if you guys caught it <humphreybc> but on the 26th March there will be a post on omgubuntu asking readers to download
{'channel': 'ubuntu-manual', 'month': 3}