#ubuntu-website 2008-09-01 <qense> hello <nand> hey #ubuntu-website 2008-09-02 <Volans> newz2000: Hi, I have read the Gerry's email of yesterday and investigated a little on the automation of the translation <newz2000> Volans: I've only read the email so far <Volans> newz2000: sorry I was going out for a while... <Volans> I have investigated a litte the automatization process for the actual start page <Volans> and I have found at least 2 way to do the thing done <newz2000> hey Volans <newz2000> so what do you think, will we be able to use launchpad for translation? <Volans> sure, there is the easiest way (not to beautiful for me) and the better one (little more work) <newz2000> what make the easiest way less beautiful? <Volans> the first can be done with html2po and po2html programs, but they put in po file also some strange strings like <strong>text</strong>, etc <newz2000> oh, I see <Volans> the second one is to create a single html page with some placeholders and use a script (for example in python) using gettext to put the right text in place of the right placeholder, and do that for all locales <newz2000> that should be simple enough <newz2000> will this work even with paragraph-length text? <Volans> sure, just make some attention when creating the po file with string <Volans> html2po will generate the default po automatically, in the second case we have to create it manually <Volans> but is a one-time work <Volans> after all can be done in a very easiest way <Volans> ops... I have to go to dinner in a minute... sorry I don't have see the clock <newz2000> no prob <newz2000> enjoy, thanks for the research <Volans> I can find you in 40-60 minutes? <newz2000> yes, I'll be here <newz2000> another 4 hours <Volans> ok, see you later, sorry :) <thorwil> newz2000: hi! any idea when a decision will be made regarding the countdown banners? <newz2000> thorwil: good question, my thinking is that since we've got so many good options that we should offer users multiple choices. <newz2000> I like what you've done, I like all of them actually <newz2000> I have only one suggestion, and that is to use Ubuntu 8.10 instead of "next ubuntu" <newz2000> but otherwise I like all of them <thorwil> ok, cool <newz2000> for the hands one, what will happen when it's 22 days out? <thorwil> newz2000: that one simply doesn't scale that far ;) <newz2000> well, my favorite of yours is the spiral <thorwil> which also has scalability issues ;) <newz2000> that one is more easily handled <newz2000> the dot doesn't need to move every day during the first couple weeks <newz2000> so the dot near the center will start out red and get closer, or the dot on the outside starts red and goes in? <thorwil> where i actually think that a countdown earlier than 14 days is a bit silly <thorwil> goes in <newz2000> there was some proposed artwork on the art-team list that used a spiral as representation of the ibex horn <thorwil> that was my inspiration :) <newz2000> I wondered <thorwil> was from Kenneth <newz2000> yeah <newz2000> who is still tight lipped on the final artwork <thorwil> seems it's all complicated and hectic <newz2000> Mark can be challenging to work with regarding art, and he's very particular on this specific subject <emunkki> back for a while. <newz2000> thorwil: all of your ideas have merit and can go forward. If you were to ask me which I like the best, I like the spiral * newz2000 counts the dots <newz2000> 16 dots. Hm. <newz2000> so if we start 30 days out... <newz2000> you could start out moving a dot every four days, then three, then two, then one each day for the last 7 days or so <newz2000> I need a piece of paper to work out the pattern, but I think that would work ok <newz2000> thorwil: do you know about the two special slides? <thorwil> newz2000: nope <newz2000> they are "coming soon" (as in today) and "its here" <newz2000> there needs to be a "day zero" slide for that time on release day while we're getting everything ready to go <newz2000> then when it releases we want to shout it <thorwil> good. plenty of time to tackle that <emunkki> 4,4,3,3,3,2,2,1... <emunkki> oops, one more 2 <thorwil> newz2000: how do you think about offering the hands only 15 or 20 days in advance and the spiral something close to 16 central dot is meant to be zero, btw)? <emunkki> 2*4 + 3*3 + 3*2 = 23 days <emunkki> oops <newz2000> I don't think I like changing it mid-process <emunkki> that doesn't make sense afterall <emunkki> well does, if the last dot is 0 ;) <newz2000> thorwil: why don't you work out the last two slides, don't spend a lot of time perfecting your slides yet, I'll draw attention to it to a few canonical folks to see if they have any comments <thorwil> newz2000: ok, i will also think about 2-stage approaches for the counting :) <newz2000> go for it <qense> hello <newz2000> howdy qense! <Volans> newz2000: back (searching for download and code of google chrome ;)) <newz2000> Volans: let me know if you find it <newz2000> on a related note, in intrepid epiphany-webkit is available as a package you can install <Volans> newz2000: today only the windows version will be released <Volans> for linux: http://gears.google.com/chrome/intl/en/linux.html?hl=en <Volans> asac have found the code: http://code.google.com/chromium/ <newz2000> oh, I need to ping him. I keep clicking links and they open opera (but they url doesn't open) <newz2000> no, wait, it's a pidgin prob. not ff <Volans> LOL <Volans> and jcastro found this: http://src.chromium.org/svn/trunk/src/chrome/ <newz2000> I'm not sure I'm on board with the "make web apps look like desktop apps" concept. <newz2000> I'm really ok with web apps looking like web pages <newz2000> though maybe as they start to be more complex there are greater benefits <qense> Is here anyone for the Ubuntu Wanted meeting? <qense> Or am I the only one that turned up? <Volans> newz2000: I have a good and bad news about Google Chrome compatibility and rendering... what do you want first? <newz2000> good <Volans> Google Chrome have the same compatibility issues and rendering of another existing browser <Volans> the "quite" bad one... that this browser is Safari 3.1 <Volans> :) <newz2000> that's the good news? <Volans> http://www.google.com/chrome/intl/en/webmasters.html <Volans> newz2000: sorry, I'm playing with the new toy... :) for the start page if you agree on the second option I can start to see and write a simple script that can do the job <newz2000> yes, do it. Lets get a sample and then have our next meeting <newz2000> I want to know if the doc team translators are game <Volans> ok, I will start tomorrow and give you feedback on the work <newz2000> Volans: ok, but don't kill yourself <newz2000> beause I want to ensure people will use it before you spend too much time <newz2000> so proof of concept is good <Volans> ok <Volans> newz2000: see what a long user agent Chrome have: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US) AppleWebKit/525.13 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/(864)930-0890 Safari/525.13 <newz2000> well, at least we can easily distinguish it #ubuntu-website 2008-09-03 <qense> hello <Ekushey> hello qense <qense> hi <vbabiy> newz2000: hey what was the site you had sent me a while aback that had to slider for a menu <vbabiy> it was black background with gold text <newz2000> vbabiy: http://digitarald.de/playground/fly-over-background/ is this it? <newz2000> oh <newz2000> black and gold <vbabiy> newz2000: found it <vbabiy> ubuntustory.com <newz2000> http://www.ubuntustory.com/ <newz2000> you're too fast <vbabiy> newz2000: I wanted to try it in google chrom <vbabiy> chrome <vbabiy> runs much better in google chrome then firefox #ubuntu-website 2008-09-04 <qense> hello <nand> qense: hey! <nand> sorry I missed the meeting, I happen to start a new job, so it's quite busy over here :) <qense> OK <qense> I was the only one there. :S <qense> I did expect at least someone else. <nand> hmm... <qense> You've already done quite some things for the project, I understand your reason. Earning money is important. ;) <qense> You need to eat something. <emunkki> Oh? <emunkki> I stopped eating years ago. * nand goes to dinner <nand> :p <nand> anyway, I guess we'll have to try again another meeting... <qense> yeah * nand really goes to dinner now <qense> have a nice dinner! <qense> (the rev is still 10, my last commit) <oliver_g_> hi <oliver_g_> not sure if this is the correct channel, but anyway: <oliver_g_> do you know a way to give feedback for the wiki? <oliver_g_> (the craighoward@example.net) <oliver_g_> because every time I use it it's a pain for one reason or another, and maybe it would be useful if people could quickly give short feedback those problems? <thorwil> newz2000: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Website/IntrepidCountdownBanners <thorwil> not sure about the coming_soon hands * newz2000 curses intrepid's problem with opening links <newz2000> thorwil: neat concept <newz2000> I like C1 and C3 the best for the "it's here" hand logo <newz2000> but my fav of all is still b4 and c4 <newz2000> thorwil: I showed the banners you and others made inside canonical and the dots have been almost unanimously liked as the fav <newz2000> still getting feedback though <newz2000> I like C3 a lot <newz2000> hey, has anyone seen the feature tour that dell did (in flash) for the inspiron mini? www.dell.com/mini <thorwil> newz2000: ok, thanks. next up is trying 30 dots then. otherwise counting in stages <newz2000> thorwil: no need for 30 dots <newz2000> just don't move one each day at first <thorwil> newz2000: if the hands shall be offered at all, i will need some time to trace hands for all numbers ... <thorwil> gotta run <thorwil> cya! <newz2000> cya thorwil. thanks! <Volans> newz2000: Hi, I have a more quick solution for the start page <newz2000> Volans: ok <Volans> with some changes to the html of the actual start page <Volans> (only indentation and thingh like this) <Volans> we can use very quickly po2html and tidy to create all the html (online AND offline) from a single po file <newz2000> ah, well, that doesn't seem unreasonable <Volans> because actually the text of the online version is the same of the offline + the search bar and the right column... <Volans> if in the future the 2 pages will differ <Volans> we can use 2 different po files, one for the offline and another for the online version <newz2000> no, I think they'll grow more similar, just need to exclude links and search from the offline version <Volans> no problem because po2html use a template html (so for example the english version of the online/offline start page) and the po file to substitute in the template the translated strings <newz2000> Volans: cool, so what should we do? <Volans> I want to do some check to be sure that all the text to be translated are recognized by html2po and after just load the po file to launchpad and give it to the documentation team through Rosetta <Volans> when the translation are done, just download all the translated po files and run a silmple shell script to create all the html files <Volans> to put on the server for the online version <newz2000> ok, is there anything I can do to help you? <Volans> for the offline version I have to see more in depth how the package that contains them work <Volans> at the moment I don't know... maybe nothing :) <newz2000> ok, that's fine with me. :-) <newz2000> But I'm eager to here what's happening <Volans> you remember if mdke tell us that the offline version should (in case this can help us) be extract to the actual package and put in a separate package? <newz2000> I don't remember him saying anything about the difference <newz2000> but the online start page isn't in a package at the moment <newz2000> slangasek was opposed to a new package if it could be avoided <Volans> IMHO the online version do not need to be a package, is only for server side... for the offline version see the end of the matt's email of the 07/25 at about 15:38 UTC <newz2000> Volans: do you know what the subject of the email was? <Volans> sure: "Re: Ubuntu Start Page proposal" <Volans> not in the list <newz2000> oh <Volans> sorry I should have specify this before :) <newz2000> yes, on the heals of that email I talked to steve langasek, the ubuntu release manager <newz2000> he stated he was slightly oposed to a new package if it could be avoided <Volans> ah ok, in this case I can only see how the actual page is created and do some changes to the package... the only problem is that we are already in freeze for intrepid and this can be a problem <newz2000> the freeze doesn't strictly apply to the online version of the start page <newz2000> if we get a process in place for creating both online and offline versions it may not get into intrepid but that's ok, the process is my goal <Volans> sure, we can make the process and maybe ask matt if he can do something for the offline version that is actually shipped in that package (iirc there are some exceptions to the freeze for the documentation packages) <newz2000> yes <Volans> ok newz2000, I will see the actual package to find the simplest way to change the actual package and after I will send all to the list <newz2000> ok. But really I'd worry about the packaging last (if it were me) <Volans> ok <mdke> it's certainly ok to update the offline files. A new package would be out of the question at this stage in the release cycle though <mdke> there is no UI or string freeze yet, so you can change anything about how stuff looks or reads in the distro <Volans> Hi mdke :) great news! can you explain me how actually the offline page is inserted into the ubuntu-artwork package? <mdke> Volans: eh? It's in the ubuntu-docs package <Volans> sorry... I was looking at the path /usr/share/ubuntu-artwork/home/index.html and this confused me <newz2000> if you ever forget its line 12 in Config/append <newz2000> oops <mdke> Volans: ah. Yeah the path is confusing. but you need to use dpkg -S <mdke> newz2000: do you have an svg for the ubuntu-docs logo you did for me the other day? <newz2000> mdke: I can make you one, is it ok for me to convert the type to a path (to help you avoid font problems)? <Volans> mdke: sure! sorry for the mistake... you insert the html files directly into the package or there is a sort of branch? <mdke> newz2000: what format is it in at the moment? <newz2000> its in svg format, but I need to pull it into a separate file <newz2000> to avoid giving you a lot of cruft <newz2000> but if I don't convert the font to a path you'll need the font on your pc, and its non-free <mdke> Volans: you can find the html files in the source package of ubuntu-docs. Which is also available via bzr here: https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-doc/ubuntu-intrepid <mdke> newz2000: ok, I don't really understand svg, so it if works, sure! Someone else is asking about using it for a new site <newz2000> ok, sure, just a moment <Volans> mdke: thanks, I'll look at it <mdke> newz2000: by the way I've asked the sysadmins to upload that wiki theme as non-default so that we can test it out a bit. But I'm still keen for any thoughts you have on it, if you get the time <mdke> Volans: ok, send me an email if you have any questions <Volans> ok thank you <newz2000> mdke: my virtualbox was broken until today so I'm eager to test it out, hopefully will do tomorrow or maybe yet this evening <mdke> newz2000: don't you run Ubuntu? grrr <newz2000> I do, but I keep my web server stuff in vms <newz2000> so my computer doesn't go slow <newz2000> I'm running intrepid which is why my virtualbox was broken since 2.6.27 came out <mdke> aha. Well, a simple substitute is to use the moin-desktop functionality, that's how I've been developing the theme <mdke> just Ctrl+C when you're done <newz2000> oh, haven't tried it <newz2000> are you testing with 1.6.3? <mdke> you just download a moin tarball and run "moin.py" <mdke> I think it's 1.6.4 I have, I couldn't find a tarball for 1.6.3 <newz2000> should be fine <mdke> yeah, I figured <newz2000> mdke: http://people.ubuntu.com/~mnuzum/tmp/docs-logo.svg <newz2000> oh <newz2000> wait, forgot to save as path <newz2000> mdke: ok, now its ready <mdke> thanks dude <Volans> mdke: some locales are with the xx-XX syntax (like index-fi_FI.html), others with the xx syntax (like index-es.html). This means that the po file are respectively fi-FI.po and es.po ? <mdke> Volans: you mean if po files existed? <mdke> the files are named like that for some stupid historical reason in relation to the way that they interacted with firefox <mdke> I'd like to work on removing that for the next release <Volans> ok, so what syntax do you want to use? <mdke> for this release, it's too late to introduce po files and that sort of thing, we can only focus on improvements to the page in terms of stylesheet and text <newz2000> it would be cool if the files could be named the same thing that apache expects, if possible <mdke> of course, that doesn't stop you from working on a po file toolchain for the next release <mdke> newz2000: I can't see that we can play around with that, we might break something because of the highly delicate way that the packaging is set up <newz2000> ok <mdke> it's really crap, and we need to ditch it, but it's tricky to do at this stage. I'm discussing it with asac and if I make progress that I'll let you guys know <mdke> I'm not hopeful for intrepid though <Volans> the po toolchain will be very simple, just one po file for both offline and online start page if the content will remain similar and a simple bash script to automatically create the online files and the offline one (those in /ubuntu-intrepid/browser-startpage/) <mdke> Volans: as i say, the packaging is really delicate, I really don't think we can try something like that. I have no problem with patches to the css or text, but we're going to struggle to rewrite the toolchain. Leave it with me, I have to go to bed now <mdke> I'm keen to do it too, but it's september already <mdke> gnite <Volans> mdke: I'm not sure to have understand all, but we can also do the same thing only replacing the actual html files with the new ones that will be quite identical... but we can speak about tomorrow or another day, no problem #ubuntu-website 2008-09-05 <Volans> I have to go now... good night <qense> hello <Volans> Hi all, newz2000 I have a question on the start page for you <newz2000> hey Volans, what's up? <Volans> newz2000: if you open http://start.ubuntu.com/8.04/ and inspect it with firebug or similar <Volans> there is a tabbed menu <divÂ id="tabs"Â class="column span-19"> that have an <ul> that have display:none <newz2000> yes, axed from the final version <newz2000> but it was a, "I don't think we want those" so I did the display:none to avoid having to re-add them in case "I think" changed <Volans> html2po recognize also the relative li for the translation... you plan to "publish" it for intrepid or not? <newz2000> I think its safe to remove, its in version control if we need it back <Volans> ok, thanks, that's all atm :) <newz2000> keep the easy questions coming <newz2000> I love the easy ones <Volans> LOL <mpt> "The following page has been changed by https://login.launchpad.net/+id/r3xMw7Y:" <mpt> ... that's not particularly useful :-/ <newz2000> mpt: where do you see that? <mpt> a wiki.ubuntu.com e-mail notification <newz2000> mpt: I'd suggest filing an RT for that <mpt> ok <Volans> newz2000: another quick question... in the header div there is a <h1Â class="column span-1">Ubuntu</h1> but the text is not shown, it has a text-indent:-800px; <Volans> why? <newz2000> it does, I use image replacement technique <newz2000> that's basically the alt tag for the ubuntu logo <newz2000> the text is replaced by the image of the logo <Volans> what logo? the header have already a background image: http://start.ubuntu.com/8.04/images/header.png <newz2000> right, that's the logo <Volans> sorry I don't understand... that logo is show only with simple css backgound statement, I don't see any replacement of the <h1> content <Volans> if I remove the text-indent I see the "Ubuntu" text <newz2000> right <newz2000> it's called header iamge replacment <newz2000> its a CSS technique that removes header text and replaces it with an image <newz2000> in this case, the image is the ubuntu logo on the brown background <Volans> but in the CSS the background:#AF6234 url(images/header.png) no-repeat scroll center top; is in the #header class... not referred to the h1 class="column span-1" <Volans> or I miss something? <newz2000> http://www.sitepoint.com/article/header-images-css-xhtml/ <newz2000> in a nutshell, <newz2000> semantic html expresses content <newz2000> if the image is content then it should be an <img> tag with alt attribute <newz2000> but in this case, the header image isn't content, its just something to make the page look pretty <newz2000> but it does contain one bit of important information, the ubuntu logo <newz2000> so I use the header replacement technique to leave the important content in there (the name of the product, Ubuntu) but without using an img tag. <emunkki> hello newz2000 <newz2000> hey emunkki <emunkki> my mouth is burning <newz2000> go ahead, spit it out. :-) <emunkki> naah, canÃ¤t spit, ate chili <emunkki> *can't <newz2000> oh, I thought burning because you wanted to chime in on header image replacement <emunkki> hehe nope actually <emunkki> hmm <emunkki> this chili peels my lips <Volans> newz2000: so is only for indiciazation and/or usability for those that use a screen reader? <emunkki> nice one <Volans> Hi emunkki <emunkki> hi Volans <newz2000> Volans: I think its more of a technique that makes a page's content more meaninful if you turn off css and javascript (like a search engine sees a page for example) <Volans> ok, then for search engine indicization <newz2000> not really, it's a movement called "semantic html" <newz2000> but it does benefit search engine ranking if done right, but the benefits are far wider (in theory) <Volans> sure, the bottom <imgÂ alt=""Â src="images/cap-bottom.png"/> is not made with the same technique ;) is the only images with the Heron that I see without css and js <emunkki> lol, semantic html movement <newz2000> Volans: yeah, no one cares about what's at the bottom of the page. :-) <emunkki> lol, code spiders do ;) <Volans> newz2000: is only for coherence for the rest of the page ;) <newz2000> yeah, I should have been consistent, but I failed <emunkki> epic fail :( <Volans> if you want I can fix that... is a very little change <newz2000> s/epic/insignificant/ <emunkki> bah ;) <newz2000> if you like <emunkki> having rest of the page coded semantically / correct and then having one illogicalness in the end of the page is epic fail <Volans> newz2000: the css http://start.ubuntu.com/8.04/style.css is actually published in some launchpad branch? <newz2000> Volans: hmm... let me remember. I do have the site in a bzr branch, where did I publish it? * newz2000 checks <Volans> ok, thanks :) <newz2000> Volans: https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~newz/ubuntu-website/start-page <Volans> newz2000: in order to siplify the strings in the po files I have to use ' instead of " in some html tags attribute. In this case you prefer I change only those that are necessary or for coherence replace all the " with ' ? <Volans> s/siplify/simplify/ <newz2000> Volans: what ever is simpler <newz2000> I'm not picky about the quoting used <Volans> it's the same for me, just to know if you prefer coherence (all with single quote) or even mixed where single quotes are not needed by html2po <Volans> I have to go now... but all seems work welll <Volans> bye #ubuntu-website 2008-09-06 <qense> hello #ubuntu-website 2008-09-07 <qense> hello <qense> hello <mdke> ryanakca: the ~ubuntu-website team is currently bug supervisor for the kubuntu-webite project in Launchpad. Would it make sense to change that to the ~kubuntu-website team? I can't really do anything with kubuntu-website bugmail <ryanakca> mdke: most likely, I would, but I don't have any powers to change it... <ryanakca> mdke: who do I poke? Riddell? <mdke> ryanakca: I'm sure we can find something who can, hang on <mdke> ryanakca: yes, Riddell <ryanakca> *nod*, thanks :) <mdke> :) <thorwil> newz2000: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Website/IntrepidCountdownBanners?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=tw_intrepid_countdown_04_spiral.png <thorwil> newz2000: you are not subscribed to that wiki page, right? <nand> thorwil: eh, nice countdowns :) <thorwil> nand: thanks * thorwil heads to the shower to be back in a bit <mdke> wow, beautiful <nand> like the #2 series, especially the #2C <mdke> I like #A <Volans> thorwil: great job! Maybe having 2 series also for K/Xubuntu ? <mdke> thorwil: but the circling dots may be interpreted as ripping off the Debian logo a little bit, which might cause problems <Volans> so the users that will put the banner in their site can choose the "theme" <nand> mdke: this didn't struck me as a debian logo <mdke> nand: no, it's not identical. But it is close enough that it will strike some people <nand> well, if it's also some publicity for debian, it's even better :) <mdke> nand: I don't think that would be a possible effect. But we might get a few debian people complaining <Volans> also the "hand" series is very good for me <nand> I don't see why they would complain... <thorwil> thank you, mdke <thorwil> leaving out everything where a few people might complain would leave us with a white canvas ^^ <mdke> thorwil: true, but we can also be sensitive to particular issues which affect our community <thorwil> well, the debian swirl faces the other direction. i wouldn't let them have sole rights to a spiral, anyway ;) <thorwil> good night! <ryanakca> Could someone with a pile web browsers help me test a few fixes to the kubuntu.org theme? #ubuntu-website 2008-09-08 <hubuntu> http://dev.chromium.org/developers/how-tos/build-instructions-linux <hubuntu> men merk at: Note: There is no working Chromium-based browser on Linux. Although many Chromium submodules build under Linux and a few unit tests pass, all that runs is a command-line "all tests pass" executable. <hubuntu> sorry.. wrong vchannel <bladiebla> newz2000, are you there? <newz2000> bl <newz2000> oops <newz2000> hi <thorwil> nice, just in time, as i wanted to ask, too :) <thorwil> newz2000: seen https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Website/IntrepidCountdownBanners?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=tw_intrepid_countdown_04_spiral.png ? <newz2000> looking good thorwil <newz2000> that is the nicest ibex picture I've seen I think <newz2000> but of course we drop all reference to ibex at the end of this month <newz2000> I have to show that to Ken <thorwil> newz2000: thank you! it's actually just a rough trace, to show the idea <thorwil> newz2000: everything else in these variations is meant to be production ready, though <thorwil> newz2000: given the preference for the dots, i don't intend to finish the hands. too much work to do both and i'd rather keep that as an option for next time <newz2000> the dots are good <qense> hello <newz2000> hi qense <thorwil> hello qense <newz2000> I just got an email from some students in .nl who want to do some usability testing on ubuntu.com for a class. <newz2000> Sounds like a fun class <qense> yeah <qense> What uni? <qense> Delft? <qense> I know Delft has got dual boots everywhere. <qense> They told me it was much easier to use Linux for basic tasks, since gcc works much better and faster than Windows' equivalents. <newz2000> the email domain is xept.nl and they merely said, "Information Technology student from the Netherlands" <newz2000> I encouraged them to sign on here or the email list, maybe we'll hear from them <qense> I don't know a xept :) <qense> who knows <qense> firefox is really slow today :S <newz2000> qense: Erik_J is the student I mentioned <Erik_J> ahh qense is dutch isn't it? <qense> yes I am :) <Erik_J> nice :) <Erik_J> I want to test downloading iso's file, ordering cd, <Erik_J> "taking the tour" and some others things <qense> You already found shipit? <Erik_J> yes, today I found the launchpad blue prints <Erik_J> I guess that is what you mean <qense> no <qense> shipit is the free cd shipping service <newz2000> https://shipit.ubuntu.com <qense> I do have some 32bit CDs left though, I also could send you some myself. <Erik_J> newz2000, understand that you can't implement all the changes, but evaluating is enough :) <newz2000> I'd love to see the results of your testing <newz2000> Erik_J: how do you plan to choose testers? <Erik_J> ehmm we are going to test it with a laptop I can borrow from my work. Two other student and me are going to test average users. I read in the book "Don't make me think" that you should't spend to much time on searching for Target group users. <newz2000> Erik_J: are people in your area generally comfortable with English? <Erik_J> but we are going to test a lot of student from different eduacations ( technical and non-tech) <Erik_J> ehmm yes other people are better in English. <newz2000> ok, that was my concern <newz2000> if the people use test aren't comfortable with English it may provide less useful results <qense> People in the Netherlands get familiar with English very soon in their lives. :) It's everywhere here. <qense> Slogans, titles, company names, expressions, slang <Erik_J> and al lot of people understand English beter than they speak <qense> true <newz2000> gotcha, I can relate to that <Erik_J> I read English every day but I never speak it. <thorwil> heh, same here <Erik_J> I hope it become better when I chat a lot :) When my English is very bad, please say <newz2000> if we have trouble understanding you we'll let you know <newz2000> so far all good though <Erik_J> wednesday we are going to define alle the specific parts we want to test. <qense> Where are you going to publish the results? <Erik_J> ehm our plan was to make a report about it but we can also publish it on a wiki page <qense> I think a lot of people here would be very interested in the results. <newz2000> how about sharing it with the email list? I think that would be an appropriate location <Erik_J> no problem <newz2000> or on the wiki <Erik_J> wich other parts do you like to be tested? <Erik_J> we have ten weeks :) <newz2000> keep it short, I'd pick no more than two if I were you... assuming you have a life outside of your schoolwork. :-) <Erik_J> 1 or 2 days a week <newz2000> because you have to test, then propose a solution, retest, etc <qense> Are you going to focus on 'digibeten'(don't know the English word for this!) or experienced people? <Erik_J> both <Erik_J> digibeter = computer novice <Erik_J> i think <thorwil> qense: digibeten derived from analphabeten? that would be computer illiterate, then, to be pretty precise <Erik_J> yes from analphabeten <qense> that's the word I was looking for! <thorwil> if you say computer novice, most will expect they have at least a clue how to use a mouse ;) <Erik_J> mja I mean people who don't know what open-source, linux enz. is <newz2000> Erik_J: so if your tests include shipit you will be including another interesting challenge in your test process, signing onto launchpad, which may include creating a launchpad user account. <thorwil> well, that's pretty specific knowledge <Erik_J> that's also a thing I'd like to improve. I have tested ubuntu.com on 6 friends who have no idea what ubuntu is and it was very hard for them to figure out what all the words mean. I think we can make that better by adding acronym tags <Erik_J> A few months ago I already did a test just for fun. <newz2000> those results will be interesting to see <Erik_J> I was to lazy to translate the results in english <newz2000> that's ok <newz2000> I mean future results <newz2000> I believe you about the acronyms being confusing <qense> Did you also craighoward@example.net ? <qense> got to go, dinner time! <newz2000> see you later qense <Erik_J> have a nice dinner <Erik_J> The first sentence on the ubuntu site for example: Ubuntu is a community developed, Linux-based operating system that is perfect for laptops, desktops and servers. <Erik_J> a lot of people don't know what linux, laptops, desktop and servers are <Erik_J> they won't continue reading because they don't understand it <Erik_J> adding the <acronym> tags can solve that a little bit <newz2000> mpt: You might be interested in this conversation <newz2000> (mpt is the usability lead for ubuntu and formerly for launchpad's UI) <Erik_J> cool <newz2000> do you have a way to test this? (effectiveness of acronym tag) <Erik_J> I'm not a expirienced interaction designer. I have only read the books "Don't make me think" and "User centered website development" and I'm working at a dutch usability company as php/html/css dev (beside my study) <Erik_J> I will ask at my work about the effectuveness of acronym tags <newz2000> There has recently been discussion on this on the web <Erik_J> they pop up slow and I think that a lot of users don't know thet exists :P <newz2000> right <newz2000> better is to not use unrecognized jargon on pages like this <Erik_J> you mean don't user words like linux etc? <Erik_J> user = use <newz2000> yes <Erik_J> I agree <Erik_J> I found the document with the ubuntu.com test results <Erik_J> they are from jan. 09 <Erik_J> ehh 08 <Erik_J> wrong, it's 4-08. I have translated it to english. I will check the English and I can send it to you <newz2000> sure, send it to the list, introduce yourself and your plans <newz2000> you don't have to write a lot, just a brief intro is fine <newz2000> I'll bet you get a lot of encouragement <thorwil> i don't think acronym tags are the solution, whatever they are exactly. rather a complete rephrasing. this is of course not simple, if can't even assume people know what an operating system is <Erik_J> http://www.w3schools.com/tags/tag_acronym.asp <newz2000> http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/radiolabs/2008/06/removing_microformats_from_bbc.shtml <thorwil> ah, that. slow. user must move the pointer there. i bet inexperienced users will not do so <newz2000> I don't know if that's relevant or not, but skimmed the headline a few weeks ago <newz2000> thorwil: I showed ken your banners and he really likes the dots <thorwil> newz2000: cool :) <thorwil> newz2000: 30 to 15 for all 3 flavors are pretty much done. rest only need numbers scaled to fit. but i have to figure out a sane way to export all this <newz2000> are you doing it in inkscape? <thorwil> yes <newz2000> yes, this is a challenge <newz2000> I'd say wait just a little longer before you do all the work, someone inside Canonical named "Kat" had some comments <qense> back <newz2000> unfortunately she's not online now so I can't figure out when she'll speak up <thorwil> newz2000: speak out about what exactly? <Erik_J> I'm gone, I'll be back later this evening <newz2000> ok, nice meeting you Erik_J <newz2000> thorwil: I'm not sure, colors maybe <thorwil> newz2000: luckily i'm using tiled clones :) <newz2000> oh, cool <Erik_J> newz2000, nice to meet you too <thorwil> allthough i consider to try a background that brightens up with dropping numbers <newz2000> she said something about trying to get away from red, but I asked her what color in the palette to use instead and she never replied (and there just aren't any other dark colors available to us) <thorwil> newz2000: how exactly should the countdown images be named? <newz2000> thorwil: anything will work, as logn as it's consistent and uses a two-digit day as part of the file name. <newz2000> for example, for 804: 804countdown_07days.jpg <thorwil> newz2000: you can use plain rects in inkscape as "targets" for export. rectangles added in a row have rising id numbers. always plus 2 <thorwil> so i write a script to replace these numeric ids with filenames inside the svg :) <newz2000> slick <newz2000> that's the beauty of svg <emunkki> thorwil, would that script be usable by the kubuntu folks as well? ;) <newz2000> I can't wait until browser support is consistent and at least on par with what ff3 can do <thorwil> emunkki: perhaps. it's really a bloody hack, though <thorwil> and not done since i don't even know how to zero-pad, yet <thorwil> which has to wait for tomorrow <emunkki> ok <emunkki> we're also working with the countdown banners <thorwil> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Website/IntrepidCountdownBanners ? <thorwil> oh, a copy <thorwil> gotta run, good night :) <Erik_AFK> Time for some sleep. Good night/day/morning/whatever #ubuntu-website 2008-09-09 <IntuitiveNipple> Is there an ubuntuforums.com web-server administrator about? <jpds> IntuitiveNipple: Forum admin or server admin? <IntuitiveNipple> server admin <jpds> IntuitiveNipple: Try #canonical-sysadmin. <IntuitiveNipple> thanks :) <qense> hello <thorwil> newz2000: when should the countdown images go online? <newz2000> at the end of the month <thorwil> so the release will be late in october <newz2000> yes, let me get the release date... <newz2000> Oct 30th thorwil <thorwil> oh, thanks! <thorwil> and here i was worried i would have to get things ready middle of this month :) <newz2000> no <newz2000> though I'm getting concerned about the feature tour <newz2000> hmm <newz2000> I'm going to have to take the reigns on this I think <newz2000> (feature tour) <qense> hello nand <thorwil> emunkki: i just completed my script and now have a svg with 5 columns and 32 rows. 30 days + coming_soon and its_here in 5 series <emunkki> ok <thorwil> emunkki: there's a specifically named rect for each position on a dedicated layer. so you can lock the other layers and select all rects and export all at once <emunkki> thorwil, meet apachelogger :) <thorwil> hello apachelogger <nand> qense: hello! <qense> How do you do? <nand> and hello to the others too! <qense> I saw you were busy with IdeaTorrent lately <emunkki> thorwil, he is interested on that :) <qense> Are things going well with that? <thorwil> emunkki: you can have the python script, the complete svg with my designs or just the array i used with my content removed <nand> qense: yep, the update is going to be real soon (tm) <nand> read, one week to three <apachelogger> hey thorwil <qense> nice! <nand> saw you set up another meeting <qense> I'm trying to <nand> concerning myself, monday and tuesday 19UTC will do it <thorwil> apachelogger: so i was talking to emunkki about batch export from svg in inkscape for countdown images <qense> I'll note that <nand> unfortunately, new job keep me late :( <thorwil> apachelogger: i just completed a script to edit my svg file and now have a svg with 5 columns and 32 rows. 30 days + coming_soon and its_here in 5 series <thorwil> apachelogger: there's a specifically named rect for each position on a dedicated layer. so you can lock the other layers and select all rects and export all at once <thorwil> apachelogger: : you can have the python script, the complete svg with my designs or just the array i used with my content removed <apachelogger> thorwil: can you throw everything in a bzr branch? <apachelogger> btw, I think the exporting should be done daily using a cron job <qense> I just got one response on that mail though. Someone said I should try to get more publicity. :S <thorwil> apachelogger: why a bzr branch? i'd rather mail you and you can do as you please :) <thorwil> apachelogger: i have to hunt for food, bbl <apachelogger> thorwil: I think such stuff should be pretty free ;-) <apachelogger> but a mail is ok as well <nand> qense: indeed you should! <qense> yeah <qense> There are really too few people working on the project. <qense> Although I have to say that you also seem quite lonely at the IdeaStorm project. You've been the only one who recently committed. <nand> you may try another time in the forums, show how it looks like now, how you want to look it like later. Your last post didn't introduce much about ubuntu wanted, it just said "hey, come to my meeting", but it was rather short on what is actually UB <nand> qense: I've been the single contributor since the start. A project starts attracting people either because of a strong leader, or/and because of an interesting project <nand> the thing is, don't expect people to magically come and help <qense> I know :) <nand> the beginning will be hard, but once it is beginning to give results, people see that you are serious about it <qense> before I'm trying to get some more attention again I think I should finish the submission and application page first. <nand> yep, good idea <qense> Maybe I should blog more often about new functions I just implemented, like they do with the LP API. <nand> yep, that may help <thorwil> apachelogger: email address, please. would you like the svg with or without my designs? <apachelogger> thorwil: craighoward@example.net I guess with design makes more sense <thorwil> apachelogger: send. i just tested batch export and it works, but i noticed slight irregularities in the series and don't know yet where it comes from. otherwise, i only intend to replace the ibex and be done with it :) <apachelogger> thorwil: thank you, I will take a look at it as soon as I finished compiling my new kernel ;-) <thorwil> np <newz2000> wow, I just popped onto #django and they have over 600 people in there. I wonder if that's because of the 1.0 release <thorwil> apachelogger: 14 days in the first column has 2 layered copies which rendered as stronger colors <thorwil> gnah. same for the 30 days in first column * thorwil shuts down for the day <ryanakca> newz2000: ping, who do I poke for bugs in the wiki theme? <newz2000> mdke is working on it <newz2000> wait <newz2000> do you mean the new theme he posted to the list or the old theme? <ryanakca> newz2000: old theme on wiki.kubuntu.org ... <newz2000> oh, that would probably be me <ryanakca> newz2000: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/kubuntu-website/+bug/253931 <ubot3> Malone bug 253931 in kubuntu-website "Documentation tab on http://wiki.kubuntu.org/ should be removed" [Undecided,New] * newz2000 checks <ryanakca> newz2000: Also, could you take care of https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/kubuntu-website/+bug/255390 (should be quick enough of a fix) <ubot3> Malone bug 255390 in kubuntu-website "Kubuntu download form accessible separately on www.ubuntu.com" [Medium,Confirmed] <ryanakca> please :) <newz2000> I don't think I can fix that one <newz2000> it has to have a url on ubuntu.com or it won't work (since its an iframe) <ryanakca> newz2000: yes, but, noindex :) <newz2000> well, I guess we could do the opposite of a frame buster... <ryanakca> I think he was only complaining that it was showing up in Google and it might get people mixed up as to which form they should use to download it... <newz2000> oh, I see <newz2000> well, I can try the reverse frame buster to force users who happen on it to the kubuntu download page <newz2000> or something <newz2000> ryanakca: would you email me so I don't forget? I can't do it right this moment. (both bugs) <newz2000> then I can just reply when done <ryanakca> *nod*, thanks <ryanakca> newz2000: An email per bug or one for two? <newz2000> just one email is fine <mdke> i was thinking of creating a moin-themes project on Launchpad for hosting theme branches. Does that sound like a bad idea? <newz2000> it sounds a little generic, but otherwise a good plan <newz2000> we could put it under ubuntu-website <ryanakca> I can't see why it would be... we (or Kubuntu does) has the Drupal ones... I'd prefix ubuntu- or kubuntu- though <ryanakca> s/has/have/g <ryanakca> s/would be/would be a bad idea/g <newz2000> ryanakca: don't worry, we'll forgive you since English isn't your native language. ;-) * newz2000 chuckles <ryanakca> newz2000: thanks :D <mdke> ryanakca: where do you put the drupal themes? <ryanakca> mdke: lp:~kubuntu-website/kubuntu-website/kubuntu-theme-v2 <mdke> ah. Ok, ubuntu-website it is :) <mdke> scrap the moin-themes idea <ryanakca> Gah. That line wasn't at all logical. Ignore it :) <newz2000> mdke: let me know if you need anything to publish there (like permissions/group memebership) <mdke> newz2000: nope, I'm in the group :p <newz2000> cool <ryanakca> mdke: btw, the link to your Masters thesis on your "About Me" page is broken <mdke> ryanakca: hah, you don't want to read that #ubuntu-website 2008-09-10 <qense> hello <mpt> "Get it while it's hot." -- Ubuntu 7.04 feature tour <newz2000> mpt: what's that? <mpt> newz2000, http://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu/releasenotes/704tour#head-d1c6a48a219c4ea353a5b0d90bc795bfd10fd176 <newz2000> ah <mpt> Not that it matters much any more, but it's also confusing for all the links in what appears to be a table of contents to go off to wiki.ubuntu.com instead of going to the relevant part of the same page <thorwil> newz2000: regarding ubuntu.com vs ubuntu-nl.org, what about content negotiation? <Volans> thorwil: I think is just google that puts localized results before international ones <thorwil> i think the debian site does it. presenting the site in the preferred language of the user <newz2000> we do that for the start page <newz2000> we've chosen not to translate ubuntu.com but we're discussing an upcoming project of linking to localized sites in the header <Volans> for example in italian, if I search "ubuntu" in the google search of firefox the first 4 results are: <Volans> www.ubuntu-it.org/ <Volans> www.ubuntu-it.org/index.php?page=Ottenere_Ubuntu // equivalent to getubuntu and link directly the download page in the ubuntu.com site <Volans> www.ubuntu.com/ <Volans> www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu/download <thorwil> newz2000: well, ok, linking to appropriate localized sites is the second best thing, i think :) <newz2000> thorwil: yeah, I think that would help satisfy the complaint of Erik's first tester who was upset that it was only in English <thorwil> newz2000: regarding the problems of users not understanding what server vs desktop means, i wonder if images that depict suitable environments for each would help <newz2000> good idea <Volans> newz2000: maybe we can make only the homepage translated and with automatic language recogniction where is explained that the site is in english and the relative localized site is XXX and the download page is YYY <newz2000> I doubt it <newz2000> we're constantly changing homepage graphics and needing to translate them would slow things down considerably <Volans> newz2000: I don't think a "translated" homepage stricty... but only a page that have 3-4 big things like buttons <Volans> to send the user to the right place <newz2000> well, my idea was to put a link near the top that says in your native language, "get help in Italian" or whatever. <newz2000> Then a localized page on ubuntu.com that explains the italian resources <Volans> oh yeah, good solution as well <Volans> and maybe the possibility do download without the english page <newz2000> yes, that would probably be a good candidate for locailzation <newz2000> since its hard for community members to maintain localized versions of that page <Volans> iirc we have a localized "copy" of that <Volans> the one I have linked above <Volans> but probably not all the locoteam have one <newz2000> yes, but it won't get udated automatically with new mirrors <Volans> sure <Volans> and as we have already discussed in the past, the choose of the mirror is a complicated and useless step for a normal user <newz2000> yes, I should see if the sysadmins will evaluate that geoip apache module <newz2000> maybe we can do some a/b testing for this release and implement it fully by the end of the year <thorwil> does it actually say "mirror"? something like "download location" or just "download from" should be easier to understand <newz2000> choose a location near you <Volans> newz2000: take a look at the download page od opensuse: http://software.opensuse.org/ there are some interesting trick (I prefer something a little more graphical) * newz2000 wishes opera would stop being the default for clicking links in pidgin <newz2000> yuck <newz2000> there are some good things there * newz2000 doesn't like the yellow <Volans> the fedora's one is so complicated... http://fedoraproject.org/get-fedora there is a mixture of architechture, media (CD, DVD), torrent, Live... <qense> hello <newz2000> hi qense <Volans> hi qense <thorwil> hi qense <newz2000> I have an idea... <newz2000> reneable the js ajax based geoip <newz2000> set a reasonable timeout (750ms maybe) <newz2000> let php generate a list of the 10 fastest mirrors with good international bandwidth <newz2000> and store them in a js array sent to the page <newz2000> if the ajax fails to return in 750ms then it just randomly chooses one of the top 10 mirrors <newz2000> if the ajax does return it uses a local mirror <Volans> newz2000: what kind of geo control you want to make, on the IP, on the locale used in the browser, etc... <Volans> ? <newz2000> IP -> country <newz2000> for the download location select list <Volans> maybe excluding some strange ip like tor if possible <newz2000> that would allow us to ditch that list <newz2000> brb <newz2000> hi, would you guys do me a quick test? <newz2000> visit http://www.ubuntu.com/testing/intrepid/temp <Volans> sure <newz2000> hit shift+reload <newz2000> and tell me if shows your IP address <Volans> the first
{'channel': 'ubuntu-website', 'month': 9}