#ubuntu-discuss 2012-12-04 <unshadow> Hi guys, do you think Ubuntu is going towards or away from mono ? #ubuntu-discuss 2012-12-05 <elkng> what is CoC ? <TheLordOfTime> !coc | elkng <ubot5> elkng: The Ubuntu Code of Conduct is a community etiquette document to which we ask all Ubuntu users to adhere | http://www.ubuntu.com/project/about-ubuntu/conduct | For information on how to electronically sign the CoC, see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SigningCodeofConduct | Watch http://static.screencasts.ubuntu.com/videos/2010/12/22/004-SigningCoC.ogv #ubuntu-discuss 2012-12-07 <CnetCOM> I got a question every release of Ubuntu has gotten worse is Canonical pulling out funding due to the bad economy and thus you do not have good developers and are releasing poorly done distros like 12.10? Every OS since 11.04 has had more and more issues...Why? More crash and fix reports have been file on your blog than with any other release...why? <CnetCOM> ? <crimsonmane> CnetCOM: what has gotten worse? <crimsonmane> oh he left <zykotick9> RMS speaks out against ubuntu's spyware - http://www.fsf.org/blogs/rms/ubuntu-spyware-what-to-do <IdleOne> I think spyware is a strong word in this case. spyware implies that the user never knows or finds out about the information being passed on. <IdleOne> RMS used buzzwords like spyware to add weight and make this a more controversial issue then it actually is. <IdleOne> I suppose you can argue that many users will never know because most won't ever see the privacy notice. <IdleOne> Also, he is late to the party and didn't bring any dip like he promised. <IdleOne> :) * zykotick9 doesn't think DEs should need "privacy/legal notices" <zykotick9> IdleOne: sidenote, i liked your dip joke ;) <IdleOne> They do if privacy is an issue <zykotick9> agreed, so why make it an issue? <IdleOne> because Canonical isn't a bottomless pit filled with cash <IdleOne> They need to make money, only way is to have commercial partners OR start charging for the distribution <zykotick9> yes, canonical's attempts to make money, seemingly at any cost - is becoming more and more clear <IdleOne> which do you prefer? <zykotick9> i'd say, charging for the distro is a lot more honest... <IdleOne> there is nothing dishonest about having commercial partners <IdleOne> We don't like the method in which they were introduced, but that doesn't imply any dishonesty on the part of Canonical <zykotick9> let's not use the word "commercial" here, i have no problem with canonical making $$$, just HOW they are acheiving that end <IdleOne> but commercial partner is exactly what Amazon is <AlanBell> there is a lot of flaming of Ubuntu, only some of it is really deserved <zykotick9> and facebook/twitter - it's not just amazon <IdleOne> zykotick9: right, I was just using Amazon as 1 example <AlanBell> I love the Amazon lens personally, I think it is a great way to search for shopping stuff <zykotick9> handing facebook what people type into unity on there computers - is scary <IdleOne> it is. <AlanBell> I thoroughly dislike the way they have implemented the privacy options <IdleOne> AlanBell: 100% agree * Evil_Eric yawns and waves to the active chatters <AlanBell> it would be better not to have them IMHO <IdleOne> not to have privacy options? <AlanBell> yes <zykotick9> ya, i was shocked there <zykotick9> "not to need them" perhaps <IdleOne> hmm, I'm not sure I follow <AlanBell> it would be better if they were implemented well <IdleOne> ah, yes. <AlanBell> but I think what is there is more scary than nothing <IdleOne> well a broken system is worse than no system I agree <IdleOne> What I would like is that a regular user like me who doesn't do any development, or have any financial stake in Ubuntu, be able to test the "new" features before they are released to the testing community. <IdleOne> Those user could then report back on what they think would be good/bad/whatever. <zykotick9> user input is not one of ubuntu's strong points ;) <IdleOne> it hasn't been for a while, but they have started that up some. <IdleOne> welcome good sir <blitz> sup <IdleOne> sirs and/or madames <IdleOne> We were just talking about the RMS blog post <blitz> RMS uses iThings, he's probably the worst offender of that which you and I admonish <IdleOne> blitz: I read that iThings as a firm warning from his lawyers <IdleOne> Don't use any tm words or we will get sued! <Zael> well i think the article starts off a bit over the top and on it's way to crazyville... then i read on and get what the real topic is... and i have to agree with RMS... it's a big privacy issue for many people <blitz> no, that's definitely not what it is <blitz> he does that kind of stuff all the time <IdleOne> I don't read his stuff often enough <Zael> it's easily solvable though... just put an option on the installer screens to turn it on or off <IdleOne> Only reason I read this latest one is because I saw AlanBell post it in another channel <blitz> I still think the amazon lens should be off by default <IdleOne> Zael: the option to turn it off as there, after it is installed. <IdleOne> s/as/is/ <Zael> but it isn't advertised or announced anywhere really <Zael> many first time and novice users won't even know about it <zykotick9> IdleOne: that default on - is an issue <IdleOne> agreed <zykotick9> and it wouldn't work the other way - who's going to choose "share my data with company 1,2,3"? no one. <IdleOne> it really isn't "share my data" <blitz> if you put it that way no one will <blitz> if you said "show me products relating to my searches" people will <IdleOne> it is share my relevant and encrypted non personal identifying data. aiui <zykotick9> blitz: obviously it's going to be painted in a friendly light - but that's the end result <Zael> some people's all for stuff like that <Zael> i'm a bit conservative and could make the remark: look at the number of people who put their real information on facebook <Zael> to me, that's asking strangers to invade your privacy... and to some people that's just fine.. and they'd turn it on <Zael> we're going to be facing a lot of issues like this as computing moves more toward the cloud <zykotick9> Zael: with FB people get something in return (connections with friends/family) [i'm NOT saying FB is a good idea!], but what do they get in return for sharing info with canonical/amazon/twitter? <zykotick9> Zael: s/cloud/fog/ ;) <Zael> the password manager... lastpass.. is a good example... people use that and it stores their passwords on servers on the internet... then what happened? the inevitable.. those servers got hacked and people's passwords got stolen <Zael> good point zykotick9 <Zael> the business answer is that you get customized advertising <zykotick9> ya! i want that! <Zael> :D <Zael> it's different when you choose to use a service.. like google, which now stores everything you give them indefinitely <Zael> some people will say, well you're choosing ubuntu.. true.. but i don't think ubuntu is doing enough to make those actions apparent <IdleOne> We can hope they will with the next version #ubuntu-discuss 2012-12-08 <JohnnyL> Did anyone see the article about Ubuntu concerning RMS on slashdot? <JohnnyL> http://linux.slashdot.org/story/12/12/07/1527225/rms-speaks-out-against-ubuntu <yescalona> discuss with the wall <yescalona> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/12/07/stallman_on_ubuntu_spyware/ #ubuntu-discuss 2012-12-09 <AlanBell> anyone feel like testing and confirming bug 1087873 <ubot5> Launchpad bug 1087873 in unity-lens-github (Ubuntu) "lens privacy feature does not work on all lenses" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1087873 <Chaos7Theory> Quiet. <yellabs> hello all you good people <yellabs> i am looking at the dash shopping lens, trying to understand how it works, and to see if there are options to make it better, and more acceptable .. <yellabs> are there any new directions taken on this issue that are new at the moment ? <yellabs> seen the bug reports and its buzzing all over the web <yellabs> privacy wise that is.. <yellabs> any one has some insights on the topic ? <Zael> sudo apt-get --purge remove <yellabs> yeah , thats an option too <Zael> sudo apt-get install xubuntu-desktop <Zael> yus <yellabs> also possible <Zael> doesn't affect me.. unity doesn't even work with my radeon 5670 <yellabs> i see <Zael> that's what made me red faced to begin with and i downloaded the Xubuntu iso... then i hear about this amazon mess.. and that's like a nail right there, right in the coffin... so i'm like forget normal ubuntu... long live Xubuntu!! * Zael shakes a pitchfork at it <yellabs> i am looking for some idea to change it for the good .. <yellabs> but you dont use the dash , so you dont know how it works <yellabs> i am testing it a bit right now <Zael> it's simple... make it default off and either during installation of ubuntu or on the first use of unity's search make the user aware of it and give them the option to turn it on if they wish <Zael> i heard it still sends stuff, even when you turn it off though <yellabs> i can see what happens , using etherape <yellabs> very visual .. ;P <popey> Zael, can you back that up with facts? <yellabs> i can try right now <popey> if it still sends data when switched off, that's a bug, and should be filed as such <Zael> what would i need to back up again? <yellabs> if you like <Zael> oh, i just heard it.. i don't know if it's true.. yellabs could probably tell you <popey> ok, so rumour. fair enough <popey> I heard it eats your first born child. <IdleOne> popey: unity-lens-github doesn't follow the privacy flag <Zael> i heard it's friends with steve ballmer <popey> IdleOne, file a bug against that lens? <IdleOne> bug 1087873 <ubot5> Launchpad bug 1087873 in unity-lens-github (Ubuntu) "lens privacy feature does not work on all lenses" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1087873 <IdleOne> AlanBell: already did <yellabs> popey , did you see the image idea ? <yellabs> by the way i filed several bugs <popey> excellent <IdleOne> Zael: this channel is for real discussion, casual but real facts. <popey> yellabs, what image? <yellabs> http://imgur.com/E1dHt <yellabs> its just an idea <yellabs> but maybe an option <Zael> IdleOne: something's wrong with your face? <yellabs> for the lens <IdleOne> jokes are good, but when in the middle of a serious topic it doesn't really help to make silly comments. <Zael> k, gotcha <popey> yellabs, the home lens is functionally what your globe thing does <popey> the whole point of the home lens (the dash) is that it searches _everything_ its possible to search, online and offline <yellabs> hmm, if i see home , i think its searching my home <yellabs> if i see globe, i know its searching the globe <yellabs> see the difference ? <yellabs> tested the off setting, its indeed off and not connecting to the canonical search server <Zael> i suppose it indexes <Zael> i remember privacy issues arose from similar circumstances in windows, when it started adding indexing and online searching <AlanBell> I am actually having a bit of a discussion about this on Google Plus now <yellabs> its buzzing all over the web <yellabs> but somehow some try to ignore the issue <AlanBell> no, a load of hype is buzzing all over the web :) <yellabs> :P <AlanBell> would be rather smashing if someone could confirm bug 1087873 <ubot5> Launchpad bug 1087873 in unity-lens-github (Ubuntu) "lens privacy feature does not work on all lenses" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1087873 <Zael> yellabs: to some people, it's not an issue... i would wager those same people are the ones that freely publish their real information and activities all over social networking sites <yellabs> LOL <AlanBell> to me it wasn't an issue until they added the privacy control <yellabs> did it wake up something ? <AlanBell> well it doesn't work <Zael> even if the feature is defaulted on... there should be a large effort for awareness being made <Zael> like a real, in your face, warning on first use <AlanBell> https://lists.launchpad.net/unity-dev/msg00536.html <IdleOne> The issue IMHO is not if the feature should exist or not, it exists and is not going away. The issue is not about how some people handle thier privacy comapared to others, we all have different ideas about what we consider to be private. The issue is what would be the best way to handle it so that everyone can feel comfortable enough to use the feature if they wanted to use it. <IdleOne> compared* <AlanBell> yes, I agree with that <Zael> i agree, and be aware of it's existence <AlanBell> http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/Privacy.png <AlanBell> did that mockup earlier, I would like to see that in the privacy dialog, so the user can decide which lenses get to see the dash home searches <AlanBell> then you don't have to uninstall the lenses you don't want to see all searches <yellabs> like the control over search engines in your browser ? <IdleOne> AlanBell: that looks like a sensible idea. It should be user opt in on a lens by lens choice. <yellabs> full control over the lenses ? <popey> AlanBell, I'd like a two-step thing. one option which says "it can appear in the dash" and another which says "..and it can go online" <IdleOne> which means the lens specifications need to have some required global rules to make sure they all follow at the minimum the privacy flag <Zael> i agree, popey <yellabs> hmm, the globe icon with checkbox ? <yellabs> :) <yellabs> include online search option .. <AlanBell> popey: we have no technical means of preventing a process from going online <AlanBell> we would have to do apparmor or something to do that <IdleOne> AlanBell: perhaps a little box at the bottom with a description of a selected lens explaining what each lens does and what data will be sent over the wire if enabled. <AlanBell> I don't want to propose something that is hard or impossible <AlanBell> yeah, the .lens file could be extended with a few fields like "this lens would like to see global searches" and "this lens sends queries off the local machine" <AlanBell> or "this lens sends queries to an intranet server <AlanBell> that use-case is distinct from sending data to consumer websites I feel. <IdleOne> basically give the user as much info as possible so they make the most informed decision possible (without cluttering up the window of course) <yellabs> just an tick box , include online search , is not an option ? is it possible ? <Zael> AlanBell: protocol wrap it or run it as a different user with changed ip tables <Zael> that's messy though <yellabs> have to eat , great that there is thought about the issue, i feel there will be an very good idea for inprovement ! <AlanBell> I guess, like tsocks does <Zael> yes <AlanBell> yellabs: a tickbox is easy. The code that the tickbox is attached to is less easy :) <yellabs> i see <yellabs> can it not be connected to the off switch thats used in privacy settings right now ? <yellabs> that already coded , so you dont have to do it twice <yellabs> all you need is the tickbox to be connected to the toggle switch of privacy settings.. ? <AlanBell> yeah, that one is the problem I have <yellabs> ah , okey <AlanBell> each scope has to have code in it to check the state of the checkbox <AlanBell> so privacy is opt-in for scope authors <yellabs> hmm <yellabs> it needs to be organised i guess, obligatory code to go before any other code for the checkbox , if that would be the solution <yellabs> how does the on of privacy switch work now ? <AlanBell> like this http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mhall119/onehundredscopes/unity-locoteams-scope/revision/4 <AlanBell> you need to add that code to every scope that you want to respect the flag <AlanBell> only a few lines, however it isn't documented and it is utterly optional <yellabs> wow thats short <yellabs> :P <AlanBell> yeah, the checkbox sets com.canonical.Unity.Lenses/remote-content-search to 'None' <AlanBell> the scopes we ship by default check for that and turn themselves off <AlanBell> any other scope won't check and won't turn itself off <yellabs> so there is no group of people that check the scope's for good behavior ? <yellabs> before they land in ubuntu ? <yellabs> or , some one assigned to repackage them to include the code of the on / off option, maybe even automated somehow ? <yellabs> ( some one ) read 'team ` <yellabs> hmm , thinking <yellabs> scope is running on top of ? <yellabs> difficult . for sure <yellabs> i thought it would be better like this , <yellabs> http://imgur.com/E1dHt <yellabs> but i guess, that hits the same problem .. <yellabs> cant use the on / off option because of the design right now <yellabs> any way, i appreciate the hard work you folks put into it, and thanks for the insight .. <yellabs> in a few day's i have some more time, and will look into it too, although i am more of an desktop user .. who know i might come up with something <yellabs> :) <yellabs> maybe the query should be sent through a verification system, and the verification can be turned on / of , so the query is rejected when toggle switch to off, but thats back to scratch, wich does not seem the way to go <yellabs> any way, take care you all , see you next time <yellabs> thanks for your time <yellabs> :) * yellabs background <AlanBell> yellabs: one would hope the Application Review Board would be checking scopes to see if they implement the privacy flag, however I have no information to suggest that they do, and I have bug 1087873 to suggest that they don't <ubot5> Launchpad bug 1087873 in unity-lens-github (Ubuntu) "lens privacy feature does not work on all lenses" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1087873 <yellabs> ok <yellabs> reading it <yellabs> read it.. <yellabs> work to be done.. (y) <u01010> what is different between Linux and freebsd? <guntbert> u01010: please keep in mind that this channel is for ubuntu related discussion - try in #ubuntu-offtopic or in ##linux <u01010> there is tools in fedora like system-config... or system-network can i user them in ubuntu? <guntbert> u01010: no <u01010> is there any alternative ? <guntbert> u01010: The Ubuntu Manual will help you become familiar with everyday tasks such as surfing the web, listening to music and scanning documents. With an emphasis on easy to follow instructions, it is suitable for all levels of experience. http://ubuntu-manual.org/ <u01010> gnutbert: I need this tools in server with out GUI <guntbert> u01010: are you using ubuntu-server? then you will find support in #ubuntu-server <orlok> Chaos7Theory: Have you looked at metasploit or similar? <Chaos7Theory> Metasploit? <orlok> Chaos7Theory: Its a framework for utilising exploits to deliver payloads <Chaos7Theory> orlok: In layman's terms? :X <orlok> Chaos7Theory: Help people take a theoretical software vulnrability and add the payload of their choice to it so the vulnrable system runs code of the attackers choosing, in other words, 0wns the server <Chaos7Theory> So whitehat hackers? I'm not really that experienced of a programmer really yet. <orlok> Chaos7Theory: yes, the tool is developed by "legitimate" security researchers <orlok> Chaos7Theory: There are unvountable linux systems on the internet that are "infected" however, and its nothing to do with any software flaw however, only bad management <orlok> uncountable, even <orlok> Chaos7Theory: bad passwor choice is much more of an issue for any linux or unix like system on the internet (combined with bad management) <Chaos7Theory> orlok: Well, I'm also reading through the wiki page and a lot of the arguments hold water as to why even if Linux were more popular, there'd still have to be many hurdles to jump over before a virus can propogate. <orlok> Chaos7Theory: Yup. Bad passwords are easier to find and compromise than a remote root exploit <Chaos7Theory> One of the main reasons I'm migrating back to Linux over Windows is it's universal package/updating system <orlok> Chaos7Theory: Any system running ssh connected to the internet will get tens of brute force attacks per day, at least. Ditto with apache and php exploit attempts. <orlok> Chaos7Theory: Generally from CHina, Russia, Pakistan, etc etc. <orlok> Chaos7Theory: Occasionally i get attacks from english speaking countries, its rare enough that i usually send an email. Only a few times a year <orlok> Occasionally i make phone calls. Once i ended up talking to a guy from redhat. <Chaos7Theory> I used to use Linux (Ubuntu) two years ago after I screwed up my Windows OS, but the support for 64-bit systems back then wasn't really stable enough. After taking a Linux course in college, I'm migrating back with the support being there now. <ikonia> the supports not really changed in two years <Chaos7Theory> Actually it has noticeably on my end. Before, wireless network adapters had trouble working out-of-the-box was the biggest deal, which isn't a problem anymore on my end. #ubuntu-discuss 2012-12-11 <yellabs> hello all #ubuntu-discuss 2012-12-12 <yellabs> hello again <yellabs> :P <AlanBell> someone should say hi to yellabs when they pop in again :) <guntbert> ubuntu documentation (the official part at least) seems to get worse and worse - today I stumbled upon: https://help.ubuntu.com/12.10/installation-guide/ , should a bug about this really be filed against the "Ubuntu installation-guide package"? #ubuntu-discuss 2012-12-13 <yellabs> hello all you good folks <yellabs> any news around the topic ubuntu dash and privacy ? <yellabs> http://www.jonobacon.org/2012/12/10/on-being-childish-an-apology/ #ubuntu-discuss 2012-12-14 <yellabs> good morning, for those who live on this side of the globe <jussi> chu: <jussi> :D <chu> Evening. <jussi> ikonia: bring back KDE! :P <ikonia> /ignore jussi <ikonia> see, exactly as I said <jussi> ikonia: Ubuntu TV isnt silence - weekly news about that... <jussi> Wayland they have been talking about recently. <ikonia> jussi: anything changed...... <chu> I somewhat understand that they want to hone their development in on one specific area, rather than spreading it out over a few - and perhaps their approach in this sense, handing the project to the community and then washing their hands of it - is not a wise decision, but it is somewhat necessary for them to focus only on the one desktop environment. <jussi> ikonia: for example, you can see the current ssues with UTV here: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UbuntuTV-Issues <ikonia> jussi: I was unware of that link (I'll have a look) I was probably unaware of it because the main page that's not changed for 9 months doesn't say anything about it <jussi> ahh yeah, if you were on the ML you would have seen some of the stuff going on <jussi> the phone is very quiet though <ikonia> in fairness to my comment,s I'm not "interested enough" to join the mailing lists, so I am aware that there is probably more, but the comment was about public availability of information <jussi> ikonia: so I guess you are basically complaining about the wiki page not being updated (in this case) <ikonia> not just the wiki <ikonia> but yeah, thats a factor <ikonia> "check out this stuff, ask questions...." <ikonia> but then nothing <jussi> ikonia: this hasnt been updated for a while (since uds) but this guy has been doing a bunch of work on the tv stuff: http://www.doadjustyourset.com/ <ikonia> that would be nice to see on an ubuntu/canonical source to show how it's going <ikonia> or a "blog" in this style from caonical <ikonia> canonical <jussi> (he has been sick or otherwise occupied, was something on the ml about it) <IdleOne> I think the point is that canonical makes these nice web pages and then there is nothing added to them. also how is someone interested going to find http://www.doadjustyourset.com/ on his own <IdleOne> I mean seriously, how am I as a regular user supposed to make a link between that site and Canonical <AlanBell> I don't think you are as a regular user <AlanBell> it is a blog with some random notes and articles by the team, it could be on planet.ubuntu.com if they are members, or the canonical voices planet <popey> why should it be a canonical source? <popey> I thought people wanted more community involvement, not less :) <popey> also, that url is in the /topic of the "official" #ubuntu-tv irc channel <IdleOne> popey: community involvement still needs direction. especially on projects that very little info has been given about <popey> yes, and the people who are involved are giving direction <popey> ask the guy doing most of the community work on ubuntu tv if he gets help from the canonical guys <popey> Will Cooke setup donotadjustyourset specifically to improve communication <IdleOne> I don't know if he does, I would assume that if he asks, they will help. For me it is more frustration on learning of this really cool idea like Ubuntu TV or Ubuntu for Android, and then not hearing anything else about it for months. <popey> no, I'm saying _ask_ him <popey> you don't know if he does because you haven't asked him yet :) <popey> he gets guidance from people in canonical, we tell him what we're doing (where we can) and he knows which developers to poke to get info <popey> I'm sure it's not perfect, but it's better than no info at all <popey> nothing has happened with UfA which is worth talking about as far as I know <popey> if there was something we'd have announced it <IdleOne> Yeah but it was announced early to the public when there really wasn't much to announce, sparked some interest and then that interest fizzled due to lack of information for the public. <AlanBell> UfA was announced early to the OEMs, just it was an unusually open announcment and the public saw it as well <IdleOne> Well, I am patiently waiting for a OEM to announce a release of UfA so I can go buy one. <AlanBell> me too <IdleOne> I can be patient because I understand that these things take time. As a regular Joe on the street. I would have already bought something else, because UfA fell off the radar. <AlanBell> yeah, it was an interesting strategy to do it like that. I guess the public noise about it was to get the attention of the OEMs <k1l> im waiting UfA, too. but brought a nexus4 for the meantime :) <popey> well, you kinda have to be public when it's at CES <popey> and you have to be at CES if you want the attention of cellphone / SoC vendors <popey> Also remember that Mark and Rick have both said repeatedly, publicly that the goal is to have Ubuntu on phones, tablets etc by 14.04 <popey> we're some way off that :) <popey> although it's coming up fast! <guntbert> I am getting more and more disappointed about the "official" ubuntu documentation - just have a look at https://help.ubuntu.com/12.10/installation-guide/ (mind how URL and content don't match at all) <guntbert> further question: should a bug about this really be filed against the "Ubuntu installation-guide package"? <AlanBell> has one been so filed? <guntbert> AlanBell: not yet, but I am in doubt if that would be appropriate - what do you say about that page? <IdleOne> The information appears to be accurate <sepisoad> ubuntu1 client is damn too much ugly ... vomit <guntbert> IdleOne: are you replying to me? <IdleOne> guntbert: yes, aside from it possibly being confusing to the user, the screen shots look correct <guntbert> IdleOne: screen shot? what screenshot? I was talking about https://help.ubuntu.com/12.10/installation-guide/ (mind how URL and content don't match at all) <IdleOne> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/GraphicalInstall looks to be close enough to what it would look like in 12.10 install process <guntbert> and there isn't an alternate CD anymore <IdleOne> 12.04 doesn't have an alternate iso? <guntbert> IdleOne: I am not talking about the link "graphical install", I am talking about a page in teh 12.10 install guide <guntbert> *the <guntbert> 12.10 ! <IdleOne> Then I am not sure exactly what it is you see as a problem <TheLordOfTime> IdleOne, i think he's saying that the data in the emily84@example.com/12.10/installation-guide states there is an alternate ISO <TheLordOfTime> while there isn't. <guntbert> IdleOne: the page is accessed as part of the 12.10 install guide, has "Installing Ubuntu 12.10 from the Alternate CD" as content... <TheLordOfTime> alternate ISO for 12.10 that is <IdleOne> I see. then the page needs to be edited to be more precise <TheLordOfTime> which is what guntbert was asking about: should a bug be filed about it against the installation-guide package. * TheLordOfTime returns to lurkmode <guntbert> IdleOne: it needs heavy editing - the links are pointing to the 12.04 guide <guntbert> TheLordOfTime: mainly yes, but i was in ranting mode too, I have to admit <IdleOne> file a bug, the worst that happens is the bug is marked invalid if the package maintainer feels it is correct. The best, they fix it :) <guntbert> <rant> I am kind of tired filing doc bugs - the one thing that happens with most of them: nothing at all </rant> <guntbert> bug filed (Bug #1090567), might someone care to confirm it? <ubot5> Launchpad bug 1090567 in installation-guide (Ubuntu) "https://help.ubuntu.com/12.10/installation-guide/ needs editing" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1090567 <IdleOne> done <guntbert> thx :) <guntbert> IdleOne: not to keep on ranting, but the last bug I filed against installation-guide (Bug #1090567, in May) is still *new* without one single activity, so I don't expect too much :-) <ubot5> Launchpad bug 1090567 in installation-guide (Ubuntu) "https://help.ubuntu.com/12.10/installation-guide/ needs editing" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1090567 <guntbert> wrong bug number <guntbert> it was actually Bug #1000354 <ubot5> Launchpad bug 1000354 in installation-guide (Ubuntu) "reference to 2.6 kernels, no mention about 3.2 " [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1000354 #ubuntu-discuss 2012-12-15 <AlanBell> guntbert: sure, but once the bug is filed then we can try and find someone to beat over the head with it <AlanBell> so, that shouldn't be there at all, it hasn't built properly <AlanBell> the text isn't in https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-branches/ubuntu/quantal/installation-guide/quantal at all <AlanBell> colin watson seems to do most of the commits <yellabs> hello there, some one around this time of day ? <k1l> just give it a go :) <yellabs> the first icon that you see when opening the dash ( home ) , what lens would that be ? <yellabs> or is that not a seperate lens ? <yellabs> trying to understand the design <yellabs> so when you hit `super` on you see the home icon below, what lens is hooked to that <yellabs> any tips are welcome <yellabs> :) <k1l> you mean the standard lense? <yellabs> yes <yellabs> do you know ? <yellabs> any insights ? <yellabs> LOL <k1l> i dont know if the standard lense got a specific name? <k1l> unity home lense? <k1l> or just "dash" <yellabs> when i go into /usr/share/unity/lenses <yellabs> i see some lenses <yellabs> but none is called hom e <yellabs> you have got an lens for apps, commands , files etc <yellabs> but none is the home lens .. i think <yellabs> every lens hooks into dbus <yellabs> so in /usr/share/dbus-1/services i put the file to link to the executable <yellabs> so i understand a bit about that, but cant figure out the home lens .. <yellabs> do you have a clue ? <k1l> i have no clue. but i even dont get what you want to do in first place <yellabs> ah okey <yellabs> i will ask in ubuntu-unity thanks #ubuntu-discuss 2012-12-17 <dingoateyourbaby> yeah there's nobody here #ubuntu-discuss 2012-12-19 <JBzh> Hi <jussi> o/ #ubuntu-discuss 2012-12-22 <Captain_Crow> will ubuntu ever be good/mainstream for gaming? <IdleOne> they're working on it <Captain_Crow> like a few years from now could ubuntu become comepatible with mainstream software and games? <Captain_Crow> compatible* <IdleOne> if what you are asking is, will software written for Windows ever be 100% compatible on linux? Only if the software devs write linux versions. <Captain_Crow> well doesnt have to be 100%, but just running the stuff i bought w/o something crashing or the screen going nuts and flickering would be a nice start :P <IdleOne> I understand what you're saying, it still boils down to software developers need to make the software for linux for it to work on linux. <Captain_Crow> i havent used ubuntu in a while cause i had a bad experience with it, but if it ran stuff i actually use i wouldnt mind using ubuntu <IdleOne> if you buy something that wasn't designed to be used on linux, you can't really blame linux now can you? <Captain_Crow> i heared that linux is not 100% immune to viruses, is there some type of antivirus for it? <IdleOne> there is, but most viruses are not written to attack linux. <IdleOne> someone who wants to cause damage goes for the biggest target <Captain_Crow> does ubuntu have a antivirus software built in? <IdleOne> you can install clamav <Captain_Crow> does ubuntu have firewalls or anything like that? <IdleOne> !ufw <ubot5> Ubuntu, like any other Linux distribution, has firewall capabilities built-in. The firewall is managed using the 'ufw' command - see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UFW | An alternative to ufw is the 'iptables' command - See https://help.ubuntu.com/community/IptablesHowTo | GUI frontends such as Gufw (GNOME) and Guarddog (KDE from Lucid onwards) also exist. <Captain_Crow> so ubuntu is safe to use? <chu> Yep, Ubuntu is fine "out of the box". <IdleOne> been using it for 5 years as my main OS without problem <Captain_Crow> how does it work with blender and lmms? <chu> No problems with blender here, though I haven't used it in a few years, and I was running it on slightly better hardware than what I have now. Not sure what lmms is though. <Captain_Crow> its for music <Captain_Crow> http://lmms.sourceforge.net/ <chu> I would imagine it'll be fine, but I can't give a definitive answer. <IdleOne> lmms is in the ubuntu software center, one click install <chu> A classic instance of the old "TIAS", aka "Try it and see! (then tell us what you saw)" <Captain_Crow> does ubuntu have any userfriendly crossplatform programming IDEs? <chu> Depends on what you're looking for, really. <chu> It also, to some extent, depends upon your interpretation of an IDE. Some people are fine with the "loose", other people are after the "stricter" definition. <Captain_Crow> something similar to "mmf2" but for ubuntu, like something that i can use to make a game or simple software app and export to .exe, .swf, etc? <Captain_Crow> is there anything like these http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clickteam#Products , that work in ubuntu or would those work in ubuntu? <chu> I don't know what mmf2 is. <chu> If you want to write a cross-platform application, choice of IDE is almost-irrelevant. It becomes a choice of the libraries you use. <Captain_Crow> well, mmf2 is a program that uses a universal set of codes that i guess are converted when it exports, and it has a crossplatform exporter, but i dont think the mmf2 program itself will work in ubuntu, so im wondering what the closest alternative is to that for ubuntu <IdleOne> !alternatives <ubot5> To change the default applications system-wide, use 'sudo update-alternatives --all' in a terminal. <IdleOne> hmm <IdleOne> that is not the response I was expecting <IdleOne> http://www.linuxalt.com/ There is somewhere you can start looking <Captain_Crow> ok <IdleOne> at a quick glance that list is a little dated but should still give you a decent idea of what is available <IdleOne> here is another http://www.osalt.com/ <chu> I don't think you're looking for an IDE per se, apologies. <Captain_Crow> idk, i had a friend that refered to it as an IDE, so i could have been misinformed <Captain_Crow> btw, what is kubuntu? is there a difference? <chu> I guess we just have different ideas of what an IDE is. <chu> So, Ubuntu comes packaged, by default, with the Unity desktop environment - it's a shell on top of the GNOME 3 library. On the other hand, kubuntu comes packaged by default with the KDE environment. <chu> It is *possible* to still install KDE on Ubuntu (and Unity on kubuntu) <chu> As far as I am aware, the differences are entirely aesthetic, but perhaps someone who knows more about kubuntu could confirm/deny that. <Captain_Crow> so kubuntu"out of the box" wont play dvds? <chu> It will. <Captain_Crow> but ubuntu doesnt? <chu> They are functionally equivalent out of the box. <Captain_Crow> i heard that windows8 isnt supporting dvd or bluray playback, so are dvds and bluray obsolete now or something? <Captain_Crow> i mean cause of operating systems not playing them out of the box anymore <Captain_Crow> what would happen if ubuntu were the only os? <Captain_Crow> if everyone used ubuntu would that solve all the compatibility issues? <chu> I'm not sure that question has meaning really. We could pose it as a thought-experiment, and I guess the answer is "yes" in that case, but it doesn't really give us anything. <Captain_Crow> im just trying to understand the situation with linux and commercial pc products :P <chu> I'd pose an analogous question something like "If Ford were the only care manufacturer, would everyone drive a Ford?" <chu> s/care/car/ <Captain_Crow> what is linuxmint, is it different from ubuntu somehow? <chu> It may have diverged more since I last cared to look, but as far as I am aware the difference is soley in the desktop environment. <chu> (Same as the difference between ubuntu and kubuntu, or xubuntu, lubuntu, etc) <Captain_Crow> is mint more popular than ubuntu? <chu> I doubt it, though Mint users certainly like to have their opinion heard. <Captain_Crow> when i typed linux into google, mint popped up before ubuntu <chu> Yep, because Mint users like to get their opinions heard :) <Captain_Crow> is mint more like windows or something? <Captain_Crow> i noticed it had a start menu type of thing <chu> They are functionally equivalent, just a different aesthetic look. <chu> You can (easily) achieve the same thing in ubuntu. <Captain_Crow> does ubuntu automatically install vlc or some other similar video playerback software, or does it have to be installed manually? <Captain_Crow> playback* <chu> I don't know what the name of the default video player is, but there is one there automatically. <Captain_Crow> so basically if someone installed ubuntu and ran updates and stuff, they could pop in a dvd and play it? <chu> Yes. <Captain_Crow> but not blurays? <chu> Not sure why they'd be any different. <chu> Oh, it's a restricted format. I see. <chu> You can't play blue rays, or hd dvds, without some effort. <Captain_Crow> how do i burn ubuntu to a disk? <Captain_Crow> i put in a disk, opened infrarecorder, and selected the iso file, a box came up, the ok button is greyed out <Captain_Crow> how do i get a ".msi" file to run on linux? <popey> Captain_Crow, that's a windows app <Captain_Crow> i got it, i just forgot to install wine :P #ubuntu-discuss 2012-12-23 <Captain_Crow> does ubuntu 12 have a option for traditional desktop environment? <IdleOne> you can install gnome-panel which is similar to gnome2. <IdleOne> or the "traditional desktop" <Captain_Crow> which version of ubuntu"out of the box" can play dvd movies? <IdleOne> Captain_Crow: out of the box they can't for legal reasons, you can install ubuntu-restricted-extras which will give you support for most all codecs. <Captain_Crow> how is linuxmint able to do it legally, but not ubuntu? <IdleOne> they don't. <IdleOne> they ship with the packages installed and they don't worry about it. <Captain_Crow> so ubuntu will never be able to play dvds out of the box? <IdleOne> Not so long as it is free of charge. <AlanBell> Captain_Crow: the ubuntu ISOs get burned as real CDs, I don't think Mint distribute like that <popey> i wouldn't say "never" <popey> if you buy a computer with a DVD drive and it ships with Ubuntu, then I'm pretty sure we pre-install that stuff <popey> e.g. if you buy a dell you get something like PowerDVD installed <chu> There is the opt-in choice at install (which is obviously necessary for the legal reasons mentioned by IdleOne), which is why I said earlier (i.e. yesterday) that it was possible to play DVDs "out of the box". But, technically it needs to download the package so it's not really "out of the box" per se. <popey> the opt-in choice at install doesn't install dvd playback stuff though <Captain_Crow> what if i have a decade old dell that was owned by several dozen people and dont have an os on it, would ubuntu be a good choice? <popey> it adds codecs, java, flash, fonts <chu> Ahh, I see. <Captain_Crow> so to get a traditional desktop do i need to install gnome-panel, or is there any default options built in? <popey> By default Ubuntu ships Unity <popey> many other desktop options are available <Captain_Crow> i like how it snaps windows to the sides and stuff, does that still work with the other desktops? <chu> Is that a Compiz feature? <AlanBell> Captain_Crow: that works with gnome-shell too <AlanBell> Captain_Crow: I would suggest installing the standard unity desktop and adding gnome-shell if you want an alternative option that is going forward <Captain_Crow> so i need to install the latest ubuntu, and install gnome-shell, and it'll look like a traditional desktop but with unity features? <AlanBell> Captain_Crow: you will get a choice at the login screen whether you want to start a unity session or a gnome session <AlanBell> I don't really know what a traditional desktop is <AlanBell> if you have a tradition of using Windows, or Mac OS, or RiscOS or NeXtStep or OS/2 then it will look somewhat familiar because it uses a WIMP interface :) <AlanBell> if what you want is a widget at the top left or bottom left for starting applications through a hierachical menu then you might like gnome-shell with https://extensions.gnome.org/extension/6/applications-menu/ <Captain_Crow> is there a difference between ubuntu 12.10 and 12.04lts? <Captain_Crow> "Ubuntu 12.10 will be supported for two years and includes cutting-edge new features that make your music, videos, documents and apps much easier to access." <Captain_Crow> does "videos" mean 12.10 plays dvds? <chu> They all play DVDs. <Captain_Crow> so between 12.10 and 12.04, which is the better choice? <chu> Depends, do you want bleeding-edge or stability as your first choice? 12.04 is an LTS ("Long-Term Support") version while 12.10 is not. The decision is entirely up to you. Some people tend to use only LTS, others don't mind. <chu> If it's for a server install, you'd obviously want the LTS, for the desktop it (probably) doesn't matter so much. <AlanBell> I would go for 12.10 personally <AlanBell> it isn't bleeding edge, it is a released stable version <AlanBell> 13.04 would be the brave choice :) <AlanBell> I think for new technologies like unity and gnome-shell you probably want the extra 6 months of newness <chu> True, "bleeding-edge" wasn't the correct term, but I had nothing else to use :p <chu> I think it would be wrong to call it a "testing" or "experimental" release, and other than just saying "one's LTS the other's not" not sure how to really characterise the differences. <popey> i use 12.04 on my main laptop <popey> will probably keep it for a while <Captain_Crow> theres a 13.04? <popey> in development yes <AlanBell> Captain_Crow: raring ringtail, the version in development <popey> not recommended for use yet <chu> You can imagine that after 12.10 was released development, started on 13.04 and Canonical aren't going to hold it back from the community until deployment. Release won't be until April next year, so we've still got a little over 4 months. * AlanBell was installing it yesterday * AlanBell has a couple of bugs to file <Captain_Crow> does ubuntu cost money now? <popey> no <popey> never will <Captain_Crow> i clicked on "get ubuntu 12.04" its asking me to "pay with paypal" <AlanBell> it is asking if you want to pay for it <AlanBell> Bug #1093303 <ubot5> bug 1093303 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "can't switch from orca to ubiquity in the 13.04 install" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1093303 <Captain_Crow> is the ubuntu 12.04 the same ubuntu 12.04 as several months ago? <AlanBell> it will have fixes for things in it <AlanBell> so the way it works is every 6 months we put out a release, that might have a bunch of things in it like gedit 3.6.1 in it for example <AlanBell> if there are any *fixes* to that version of that software then they get updated through the repositories <AlanBell> if gedit 4 comes out with radical new *features* then that goes into the next release of Ubuntu <AlanBell> for 12.04 we would continue providing fixes for 3.6.1 for the next 7 years <AlanBell> so 12.04 now is more fixed than 12.04 was several months ago, but it is still 12.04 with the same versions of pretty much everything in it (except for a couple of things like web browsers) <popey> 5 years, not 7 <AlanBell> ah yes, until 2017 <AlanBell> so if you want cool new stuff for one PC then use most recent stable version and upgrade every 6 months. If you have a fleet of 2000 desktops you are managing and you want them to perform consistently with each other and you don't have the time to upgrade every 6 months then it is LTS all the way for you. <Captain_Crow> how long should ubuntu 12.04 take to boot from the disk? <AlanBell> Captain_Crow: from the CD? probably about a minute. When installed it boots in less than 10 seconds on SSD and maybe a bit longer on spinning rust <Captain_Crow> oh, i been trying to run it like 20 min at a time and cant even get to the main screen <Captain_Crow> it just loads and loads and loads <AlanBell> that isn't right ;) <AlanBell> so what did you do so far? downloaded the iso image, put it on CD, got the bios to boot from CD? <AlanBell> what did you see on screen? did you get as far as an Ubuntu logo and 5 dots? <AlanBell> and a picture of a keyboard and the vitruvian man? <Captain_Crow> i got to the load screen with 5 dots, im going to try another cd <Captain_Crow> i think it was cause the other cd had a scratch on it <Captain_Crow> i installed "gnome-shell" and went to the user thing and clicked "gnome (classic)" and i dont see any difference <Captain_Crow> nvm, i guess it was a glitch #ubuntu-discuss 2012-12-24 <Captain_Crow> whats with the steam games on linux thing, does that mean steam works on all version of linux or only certain ones? <elky> i'd imagine only the ones steam on linux works on <Captain_Crow> i ment what version/distribution of linux are they made for? <Pici> As I understand it, they were tested on Ubuntu, so your experience on other distros may vary. <MrChrisDruif> I think you're correct Pici, but let's hope they'll support different distributions later on. <Captain_Crow> does blender install on linux or is it just supposed to run w/o installing? <MrChrisDruif> I don't know of any software that doesn't need installing. sudo apt-get install blender will probably install it for ya Captain_Crow <Captain_Crow> its installing the old version, i downloaded the new version off blender.org but idk how to install the files <MrChrisDruif> Captain_Crow; http://askubuntu.com/questions/25961/how-to-install-a-tar-gz-or-tar-bz2-file <MrChrisDruif> (You didn't mention that before) <MrChrisDruif> Captain_Crow; And besides, this is an discussion channel not a help channel. Please refer to #ubuntu for further help questions (as I'm actually off) #ubuntu-discuss 2012-12-25 <chu> Hello, so which version of Ubuntu will include the (official) e17 release in it's repos? 13.10? <IdleOne> there should still be time to include it in 13.04 I would think <chu> Ahh, excellent. So does 12.10 have emacs 24 available in the repos? (If you don't mind looking :p) <IdleOne> !info emacs <ubot5> emacs (source: emacs-defaults): GNU Emacs editor (metapackage). In component main, is optional. Version 45.0 (quantal), package size 1 kB, installed size 25 kB <chu> Version 45?! What does this even mean?! <IdleOne> means you are running debian with ancient packages? <chu> This is what I am using: GNU Emacs (316)288-4715 (i486-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 2.20.1) of 2012-10-14 on cw-bkp0, modified by Debian. <chu> Not default repo though. <chu> I'm sure if I bothered to run "apt-get update && sudo apt-get upgrade" there may be a new version too - this is running emacs24 testing, but I know emacs24 was "officially" released a few months back. <IdleOne> I have no idea <DJones> guntbert: I'm here <guntbert> DJones: hi, I wanted to ascertain the impressio n that the team for the official documentation seems to mess around with the docs <guntbert> things get lost - are moved elswhere - are not updated - and bug reports are not answered - but that all is not appropriate for the supportt channel <DJones> There's been a few things I've been looking for that seem to have vanished or not been updated <DJones> If its of any use, I've just come across this http://www.ubuntu.com/download/help/install-desktop-latest <guntbert> now if you look at the "new" documentation : https://help.ubuntu.com/12.10/ubuntu-help/index.html - does it look appealing? <guntbert> ah, your link was got me going on that trip in the first place - scroll down till you get to "more detailed instructions..." and click that link <DJones> I'm probably not a good person to ask that, I'm not great on what looks good & what doesn't.. <DJones> ..But I'd say yes it looks quite good <guntbert> DJones: I was not talking "design" but the possibility to find the info I want (mind you: installation is just an example right
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