#xubuntu-devel 2011-03-01 <charlie-tca> Good morning <ochosi> hi <mr_pouit> hi <charlie-tca> Testing the alpha3 images starting today <knome> is there any news on getting the slideshow content donw? <knome> *done <knome> i could use some time today to update the slides, even with some really WIP material <knome> would also be nice to get screenshots ready <knome> makes it look way more ready, and we'll spot things that do not work <charlie-tca> ochosi: got any screenshots for knome? <knome> i can see if i can get a3 installed in vbox <ochosi> charlie-tca, knome: i can maybe do screenshots later in the day <charlie-tca> We are waiting for a good image at this time <charlie-tca> they are rebuilding all the images <knome> okay <ochosi> right <ochosi> well, i can always make screenshots from my install <knome> sure <knome> that's fine as well <knome> charlie-tca, any comments about the mail i sent to the ML <mr_pouit> I if take screenshots, be sure to take greybird from git (the latest fixes are not uploaded yet) <charlie-tca> no, I didn't have any <mr_pouit> if you* <charlie-tca> That's why ochosi was going to get them, I thought? that is the most up-to-date. <ochosi> yep, no worries, i'll take care of the shots <charlie-tca> mr_pouit: stop order given for ppc builds <charlie-tca> I will write up the news release on it later today <mr_pouit> yay <ochosi> charlie-tca: maybe a suggestion for the webteam and the next meeting, the news-posts in xubuntu.org should/could appear in the ubuntu planet <ochosi> (otherwise possibly no-one will *ever* read it) <knome> i can do that today <charlie-tca> They will, as soon as we get it moved to wordpress <knome> we can do that already <charlie-tca> I thought drupal did not let us do that (seemed to be one of the reasons to migrate to wordpress) <knome> it does <knome> that was never a reason to migrate <knome> the reason not to add our site/feed now was that it's still ugly, and we'd like people see the new, shiny site <charlie-tca> Is migrate to wordpress going to cause issues if we turn that on? <charlie-tca> We don't care if it ugly, we care if we are getting news to those who need to read it <knome> well, not really "issues", but we need to link again/update our feed url <charlie-tca> Does that mean everything goes to the planet twice? <knome> no <knome> that means that if we don't change the url, there will be no new news <charlie-tca> and we are talking about just the news releases, right? <knome> well, anything on our site <knome> at least wp can filter them to just news, probably drupal also (but i don't know that off the top of my head) <charlie-tca> Explain? Anything on our site means we make a change to the download page, it goes to the planet? <knome> no <knome> the "articles" <knome> whether they were news releases or something else <knome> like the artwork article by ochosi <charlie-tca> okay, turn it on <charlie-tca> they should all be in the same place, I thought? <knome> i'll do that today <knome> http://feeds.feedburner.com/Xubuntu?format=xml <charlie-tca> Isn't that the normal rss feed? <knome> yeah? <charlie-tca> turn it on, then. Seems good <knome> yeah. as i said, i'll do that later today <charlie-tca> right now, we forward things to UNW to get them published. <ochosi> nice, thanks knome and charlie-tca <knome> ochosi, np <charlie-tca> knome: question? can you repunch ochosi's article to make it go through again after turning the feed on? <knome> i can't - i have no account in xububtu.org drupal * ochosi pokes micahg <ochosi> micahg: nvm, already solved it <charlie-tca> um, whatever we are using for notifications in natty alpha2, they do not cover each other up, but instead list individually down the screen <charlie-tca> You lose a lot of screen to them now <Sysi> that sounds better that not seeing all of them <charlie-tca> depends on many times you like telling them to close so you can continue working <charlie-tca> since they hide what ever should be on screen <Sysi> i set them to disappear in 4secs, what is the default? <charlie-tca> If you load a music cd and it plasters every song up, it won't matter how long they are, will it? <charlie-tca> a screen full of notices is not fun <Sysi> never seen that happening <charlie-tca> I have a crash notice, an update notice, and an information notice, that is the top half of the screen <TDO|Aquina> hello! <charlie-tca> Been a while! <charlie-tca> Hello <TDO|Aquina> Yes, it's bee a while. <TDO|Aquina> I decided to have a look when I received the latest artwors newsletter. <TDO|Aquina> I see you're in good shape. Are you? <charlie-tca> hopefully. the themes are done, thanks to ochosi. <charlie-tca> Wallpaper cutoff is March 10, we should have time to select one and get any changes in for it. <charlie-tca> This is looking to be a great release, with many changes <TDO|Aquina> In case you look for grey I#ve got a modified version of an earlier image. Wanna see? <charlie-tca> sure <TDO|Aquina> http://tron-delta.org/database/xubuntu_security_enhanced_aquina_2011.png <charlie-tca> that's nice! <TDO|Aquina> :-) <knome> that's the old style and font though <TDO|Aquina> yes <TDO|Aquina> I like old things. :-) #xubuntu-devel 2011-03-02 <TDO|Aquina> cu <charlie-tca> Good morning <charlie-tca> mr_pouit, ochosi : I have not seen the restart/shutdown to gdm bug in the alpha3 testing yet <charlie-tca> alternate images are completed <charlie-tca> starting desktop image testing now <ochosi> charlie-tca: same here, also wanted to say that today, that i haven't experienced the restart bug with the latest updates installed <charlie-tca> Great! Maybe it is fixed now? * ochosi knocks on wood <charlie-tca> hm, I dumped water on a keyboard last night, today that computer is freezing during installs <charlie-tca> It acts like it doesn't like working today... * charlie-tca knows about the drinks at the computer things, but ... <ochosi> hm, usually spillings drinks on keyboard wasn't a problem for me <ochosi> drying it up solved it <charlie-tca> I don't understand davidhull@example.net. You wouldn't think a bit of water would be a bad thing <ochosi> lol <charlie-tca> The keyboard was dirty, too <ochosi> then maybe the water was good ;) <charlie-tca> Yeah, I thought the way before this freezing thing started <knome> well, i know you really shouldn't have *water* near computers, but rum and other alcoholic beverages are completely different <ochosi> +1 ;) <charlie-tca> Water doesn't get sticky though <knome> neither does rum etc if you drink it and not spill it on your keyboard <charlie-tca> hm, if I had drunk it, it wouldn't be on the keyboard :-) <charlie-tca> Maybe I got too many computers running at once again. <davmor2> charlie-tca: get it cold enough and stick it on your tongue you'll be amazed at how sticky water can be ;) <charlie-tca> that's the pipe, not the water <charlie-tca> oh, and the water, huh? <knome> davmor2, haha, right to the laughter nerve <knome> charlie-tca, well, try to make the water -30 <charlie-tca> keyboard to go outside, after this installation attempt <charlie-tca> ran into the restart goes to gdm, fresh install in VBox, amd64 <charlie-tca> but it does not return to gdm on F7. It went to F8 instead, and F7 is blank <mark76> What's the CLI command for untarring a tar.gz? <mark76> Wrong room <TheSheep> tar xvfz yourfile.tar.gz <TheSheep> and yes, wrong :) <ochosi> arr, thunar's startup lag is really annoying <Sysi> not as annoying as lag when removing files <knome> not as annoying as lag when you've ordered a drink <knome> instant win <ochosi> lol #xubuntu-devel 2011-03-03 <knome> i added the xubuntu feed to planet ubuntu 20 seconds ago. <charlie-tca> thank you <micahg> charlie-tca: I'm sorry, but I haven't heard back from persia about the ARM installers, I could test next week and we could release it late if you're interested <charlie-tca> heh, at the rate it is going, ARM might not be ready anyway <charlie-tca> I think they are rebuilding the image again <charlie-tca> We did not have them for us this time. Maybe we can start building and testing them, and plan for beta release? <charlie-tca> That is only a month away <PsynoKhi0> heya <ochosi> hi <PsynoKhi0> I've just tried the daily build for xubuntu natty, really impressed by the polished look <PsynoKhi0> though did I miss it or has the desktop switcher applet been removed from the default layout? <mr_pouit> The workspace switcher will probably come back, after the alpha 3 release <PsynoKhi0> great :) <ochosi> thanks for the nice feedback PsynoKhi0 <PsynoKhi0> np, you deserve it guys! almost making me want to drop KDE4 heh <PsynoKhi0> there's only one thing that kind of bugs me, it's the menu icon <ochosi> yeah, that's work in progress <PsynoKhi0> though only if it take it from a "first time user"'s perspective <PsynoKhi0> it's like the smallest icon of all with no rel clue that it's a menu icon unless you hover the mouse over it <PsynoKhi0> no real* <PsynoKhi0> mind you, this more or less plagues any recent DE <ochosi> currently we were thinking to make it monochrome <PsynoKhi0> hell even MS seem to think they can get away with nothing but an icon - they prolly believe they can afford that because of the windows mindshare <ochosi> but tbh i don't really know how the icon could suggest "menu" <PsynoKhi0> I think it should contrast with the rest of the desktop <ochosi> as in: make it pink? :) <PsynoKhi0> URGH <ochosi> well, it kinda does contrast with the rest of the DE atm because it's not monochrome <PsynoKhi0> hmm well take the start button in XP... dault is a green button with a big fat START on it, over a blue taskbar... what would a brand new computer user do when seeing the desktop for the first time? <PsynoKhi0> hard to miss, isn't it? <PsynoKhi0> dault -> default <ochosi> probably, but tbh when i was still using windows i always thought: "why the heck does it say 'start'"? <PsynoKhi0> dunno... but it has pretty strong "whenever you have no clue what to do next, try pressing here" semantics <ochosi> ok, so assuming we stick with only the icon, no text, what would you suggest? <PsynoKhi0> hmm do you have a screenshot of the current dafault layout? <PsynoKhi0> oh boy, gotta learn to type default right <ochosi> lol, yeah :) <PsynoKhi0> a pic of the top left corner will do <ochosi> this is approx the default http://imagebin.org/140898 <PsynoKhi0> awesome ty! gonna slaughter it a bit ;P <ochosi> sure, go ahead <mark76> Is that xfce4-panel with alpha transparency at the bottom? <ochosi> mark76: yes <mark76> Nice <PsynoKhi0> sigh I davidhull@example.net.... <PsynoKhi0> http://img593.imageshack.us/i/panelit3bigmenubutton.png/ anyway something like this <PsynoKhi0> but professionally done >.< <ochosi> woah <ochosi> so you want to make it ellipse-shaped <PsynoKhi0> yes it's butt ugly <ochosi> ? <PsynoKhi0> nah, dunno, couldn't get the corners round <PsynoKhi0> :| <ochosi> we were considering something like the lubuntu menu-button <ochosi> but not sure yet whether it's possible in xfce-panel <PsynoKhi0> ah <ochosi> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/Artwork/Incoming/Natty/Ozone <ochosi> > panel <PsynoKhi0> anyway you could have the icon bigger ieven if the top and buttom are slightly cut off? <ochosi> probably <ochosi> not sure whether the icon will be cut off or scaled <PsynoKhi0> hmm lubuntu might be on the right track, though still not sold on flat menu buttons with no text... doesn't really scream "CLICK MEH!!!" but it could be just me hehe <PsynoKhi0> oh well, I guess users CAN learn too :) <ochosi> yeah, the install-slideshow will highlight the app-menu and the button <ochosi> so it's not necessarily a problem <PsynoKhi0> true <ochosi> and i don't want a button that screams at me for everyday-work <PsynoKhi0> hehe <PsynoKhi0> so you're assuming that people know their way around, or watch the slideshow, or get help for the first post install steps, I guess it's fair enough <ochosi> mr_pouit: btw, i asked again in #xfce-dev about thunar's startup-lag and jannis and nick still seem to be convinced that adding the daemon to autostart solves the issue <ochosi> PsynoKhi0: yep, and there are also users that might get what that button does by a) intuition or b) trying to click it ;) <PsynoKhi0> if they do understand it's a button :P <ochosi> well, if they're too afraid to click anywhere, how will they even install the system? <PsynoKhi0> well I'm using the following scenario as a starting point: someone who gets a computer/tablet/whatever as a present with any *buntu flavor preinstalled... what are the first reactions? <PsynoKhi0> oh and that person has not heard let alone used *buntu before <ochosi> sure, it's a valid (even not exactly the standard) scenario <ochosi> +if <PsynoKhi0> though yes it might not be your target audience :) <ochosi> yeah, maybe not ;) <ochosi> but in the end i don't think there's a clear audience for xubuntu <PsynoKhi0> still wishing for some big OEM putting *buntu systems on local electronics shop :D <ochosi> good luck with that <PsynoKhi0> I know... <ochosi> sry, g2g, lunch -> <ochosi> bbl <PsynoKhi0> every bit helps though <PsynoKhi0> kk cya!:) <ochosi> yep, cu <mr_pouit> ochosi: clearly not, because Thunar --daemon is already launched by default by xfce4-session here :/ <PsynoKhi0> ochosi? <PsynoKhi0> ah nvm <mr_pouit> ochosi: imho, it is slow to start, because it needs to start all gio network daemons (gvfsd-{smb,dns}, etc.) <mr_pouit> if you compare ps output before and after, you can see more of them <mr_pouit> ah, and tumbler of course <mr_pouit> if you compare with nautilus: nautilus loads them only when you click on the "network" shortcut <mr_pouit> (so it's faster to start the first time) <charlie-tca> Good morning <mr_pouit> ochosi: yay, I think I identified the cause of the startup lag: the "Network" bookmark <ochosi> mr_pouit: let's hope we can fix that! :) <mr_pouit> for 4.8, I'm not sure :} <ochosi> for 11.04? ;) <ochosi> i mean can we patch it <mr_pouit> well, if what I wrote is not too wrong, I don't see any unintrusive way of patching :/ <ochosi> arrh <ochosi> g2g, sry, i won't be able to attend the meeting tonight i'm afriad <ochosi> not many updates from my side anyway, apart from xfwm4 finished and all <ochosi> -> <charlie-tca> well, I forgot to tell vinnl we need a news release for alpha3 <charlie-tca> Natty Alpha3 released! <charlie-tca> Congratulations for a well-done effort <charlie-tca> Xubuntu community meeting in #ubuntu-meeting in 25 minutes. Everyone is invited to attend. Agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings <charlie-tca> if freenode settles down enough <micahg> charlie-tca: I'll be a little late for the meeting <charlie-tca> heh <charlie-tca> no problem, I don't know if I will make it at the rate the splits are going #xubuntu-devel 2011-03-04 <PsynoKhi0> hi <knome> hello <PsynoKhi0> ochosi: ready for 8 more menu icons suggestions? ;P <PsynoKhi0> or maybe knome? <ochosi> sure <PsynoKhi0> well there are variations on the idea basically <PsynoKhi0> http://img832.imageshack.us/i/panelit3bigmenubutton2.png/ <PsynoKhi0> http://img820.imageshack.us/i/panelit3bigmenubutton3.png/ without the blue background <ochosi> hm, not (entirely) bad, but it doesn't really look like a button anymore <ochosi> iirc you wanted something that would make people click it <ochosi> it looks a bit like being just a bg-image of the panel now <PsynoKhi0> patience!! :D <ochosi> but basically i get what you're suggesting and i think it's a possibly good direction <PsynoKhi0> http://img251.imageshack.us/i/panelit3bigmenubutton5.png/ this one with the blue ubuntu logo inside the mouse <PsynoKhi0> e.g. xubuntu's variation of the circle thingie <ochosi> hm, the overlay is a bit confusing <ochosi> sry, i got to go now <ochosi> we can discuss this later <ochosi> bbl <PsynoKhi0> sure <PsynoKhi0> cya! <PsynoKhi0> knome: any opinion? <knome> PsynoKhi0, 2 is the best, but i agree with ochosi that it maybe needs some work to look more like a button <PsynoKhi0> definitely, basically the idea was to check how having the XFCE mouse much bigger though slightly cut out would turn out <knome> mmh, i'm not sure, it isn't bad but i don't know if it's good enough <PsynoKhi0> in what way? <PsynoKhi0> not enough "this is a button" semantics? <knome> yeah <PsynoKhi0> true <PsynoKhi0> http://img145.imageshack.us/i/panelit3bigmenubutton6.png/ this one is a B&W inverted variation of the first <knome> mmh <knome> i'd say too much contrast <PsynoKhi0> I see <knome> also, i'd say let's try to stick with the original colors <PsynoKhi0> though IMO the menu button should contrast with the rest of the desktop due to it's central role <PsynoKhi0> ok <PsynoKhi0> http://img696.imageshack.us/i/panelit3bigmenubutton9.png/ this one I'm not too sure, kinda hard to figure out it's the blue ubuntu logo in the back <knome> yeah <PsynoKhi0> having only the white mouse without a background is risky however with light themes <knome> true <PsynoKhi0> so a black outline maybe <Sysi> (xfce4-screenshooter can take shots of part of the screen too) <PsynoKhi0> I worked based on a screenshot provided by ochosi and I wanted to make sure people would get the idea of how the dektop would look like as a whole <Sysi> ah <PsynoKhi0> though yes tweaking and uploading individual files in kind of a PitA ;) <PsynoKhi0> http://img8.imageshack.us/i/panelit3bigmenubutton10.png/ didn't turn out so well :( <PsynoKhi0> there might be a way to "buttonize" the mouse <Sysi> did we long time ago thought about icon with three mouses placed like kubuntu logo? <Sysi> kubuntu logo is so great but that small mouses may be problem <PsynoKhi0> guess so... the current menu button is microscopic <Sysi> if we had text "Xubuntu" it wouldn't need translating.. but would it look bad? <PsynoKhi0> from what I've gathered they want to avoid text <Sysi> i know <PsynoKhi0> bbl <charlie-tca> Good morning <charlie-tca> Another wonderful day to improve what we can, but we can not allow things to become overwhelming! <PsynoKhi0> ochosi: http://img17.imageshack.us/f/panelit3bigmenubutton12.png/ though it's flat <PsynoKhi0> ah still away nvm <PsynoKhi0> any taker? <charlie-tca> the netsplits are starting early today <ochosi_> PsynoKhi0: the last version (with the arrow) is kinda funny, i remember tons of threads on ubuntuforums on how to get rid of the arrow in the gnome-menu :) <ochosi_> PsynoKhi0: anyway, i think making the button "glow" might be a good idea <charlie-tca> ochosi: no workspace switcher in alpha3? <ochosi> charlie-tca: no i don't think we managed to do that change early enough <charlie-tca> We are doing it, though, right/ <charlie-tca> It is not in today's image, either <mr_pouit> Alpha 3 doesn't have the latest greybird nor the workspace switcher, because the alpha freeze started on sunday evening, and I wasn't available to upload the changes before <charlie-tca> Thanks. * micahg thought it started Mon evening <charlie-tca> Depends on the country you are in at the time <charlie-tca> Um, Beta1 is March 31 * micahg doesn't think mr_pouit is in the Pacific Rim <micahg> that makes no sense, ignore me <charlie-tca> mr_pouit is on the old schedule, perhaps? <charlie-tca> anyway, he said he will get it in for the beta, that counts <micahg> ochosi: if you can ping me when gmusicbrowser needs an upgrade, that would be great <ochosi> micahg: sure will do <ochosi> micahg: 1.1.7 is around the corner <ochosi> micahg: i talked to the dev yesterday and most of my changes will go upstream to that version, so very little to patch after that <mr_pouit> (it was "Alpha 3 freeze 2/27 2300 UTC", iirc) <micahg> oh,hmm, that almost seems like a typo <mr_pouit> ahah, maybe, I thought they had a good reason to freeze earlier than usual <charlie-tca> hm, blame me if I put that one in <mr_pouit> "new" greybird uploaded in xubuntu-artwork 11.04.2 <mr_pouit> the workspace switcher will follow, ochosi is doing some experiments at the moment ;P <charlie-tca> Thank you, mr_pouit. As always, that is greatly appreciated. <charlie-tca> I just wanted to know we had not forgotten workspace switcher, with all we try to get done. <pleia2> charlie-tca: apologies for missing the meeting yesterday, recovering from a flu (no updates anyway, still waiting on that ticket) <charlie-tca> Better to recover than to wear yourself out. <knome> Better to drink than drive. <knome> oh wait... <knome> ;) <knome> that was a different onw <knome> *one <Sysi> "it's better to burn out than to fade away" :P <mr_pouit> "never run with scissors"? <knome> hmm <charlie-tca> Don't play with fire if you don't want to get burned <knome> don't play with fire unless you want to eat your food warm? <Sysi> are we heading to something? <knome> grace? <knome> *grave? <charlie-tca> hoping to stay on the green side of the dirt <knome> heh <knome> hoping that the dirt doesn't end up in our pants? <charlie-tca> or on them #xubuntu-devel 2011-03-05 <PsynoKhi0> hi <PsynoKhi0> ochosi: http://img577.imageshack.us/f/panelit3bigmenubutton13.png/ :D <PsynoKhi0> darn <Sysi> i was thinking.. if we want wider icon, how about mouse and ~ubuntu-logo next to each other on blue background? <PsynoKhi0> hmm I think having them next to each other would amke users think they're 2 separate things <PsynoKhi0> though yes I do think combining the xfce mouse and the ubuntu logo in some way would be even better than only the mouse <Sysi> same background, different from panel <Sysi> it still could look weird <PsynoKhi0> http://img232.imageshack.us/f/panelit3bigmenubutton14.png/ <PsynoKhi0> or a smaller mouse with the ubuntu logo to the left <PsynoKhi0> nah <PsynoKhi0> would look like the mouse is saying "Ubuntu? Let me the hell outta here!" :D <Sysi> mouse chasing ubuntu? :P <PsynoKhi0> could make the ubuntu logo look like cheese <PsynoKhi0> :D <PsynoKhi0> not sure I have a complete picture of the mouse though <PsynoKhi0> guess I could hack together something from xfce's homepage <ochosi> PsynoKhi0: tbh i think i have to try/see your menu icons in action to be able to really judge them <ochosi> PsynoKhi0: and: i'm not sure as to how wide the button should really be, seems like 1:2 in your mockup <PsynoKhi0> ochosi: indeed, was wondering if xfce allowed non square buttons/icons <PsynoKhi0> though I stand by my conviction that the menu button shoul be the largest one on a clean panel :D #xubuntu-devel 2011-03-06 <ochosi> hi everyone <micahg> hi ochosi <ochosi> micahg: do you have an opinion on theming? <micahg> ochosi: usually not unless it's atrocious <ochosi> ok :) <ochosi> well, i'm considering to give the menus a dark background <ochosi> but keep a bright menubar <micahg> that sounds like it'll contrast poorly <ochosi> dunno whether you've tested/seen greybird so far <micahg> ochosi: upgrading to natty now <ochosi> how do you mean it'll contrast poorly? <micahg> dark vs light <ochosi> yeah, but the font-color will be bright <micahg> oh, well, actually looking at the theme in maverick, it's dark and light, so I guess it wouldn't be that bad <micahg> you have a sample to lookat? <ochosi> well, it would be something like this: http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_1QSDkzYY2vc/TXKh77ChufI/AAAAAAAADTg/sEwh7Wpy9Go/elementary-gtk-theme-2.1.png <ochosi> but the menus/panels not as dark as here * micahg fires up midori ;) <ochosi> i just realised that the dark panel-bg kind of makes you wish for dark indicator menus <ochosi> i achieved that yesterday and made them dark, then i realised that the app-menu should probably also be dark for consistency <ochosi> and since i'm not sure it's possible to theme that independently of other menus i think it's either all or nothing <micahg> hmm, looks monochrome <micahg> except for the highlight <ochosi> well, the shot isn't really representative as there aren't even icons in the menus (xubuntu has those activated) <ochosi> i mean there are two options imo, either make the menus brighter than atm or darker <ochosi> (both would mean better contrast/readability i think) <ochosi> micahg: hm, so what do you think, is it worth a try? <ochosi> (it's not like we can't change it back later) <micahg> ochosi: idk, might be worth asking others, seems ok to me, but style isn't my strong point <ochosi> right <ochosi> yeah, i'll maybe give it a shot so i can at least present screenshots <ochosi> otherwise people won't really know what it looks like <ochosi> micahg: you still around? <micahg> ochosi: yep <ochosi> if you're still interested in a screenshot i can now provide one <ochosi> micahg: http://imagebin.org/141414 <micahg> ochosi: crashes midori :P, will check in firefox after reboot <ochosi> micahg: right :) <micahg> brb, hopefully :) <micahg> ochosi: any idea where the network manager went? <ochosi> micahg: what do you mean? <ochosi> micahg: is it not in the panel? <ochosi> micahg: (if xfce4-indicator is in the panel, nm-applet should be displayed as an indicator, otherwise it should be in the systray) <micahg> no, it's not <ochosi> are you using the default panel layout? * micahg has no idea, my panel settings were lost on upgrade * micahg does not like some of the new panel applets <ochosi> right, does it look like this: http://wiki.knome.fi/_detail/shimmer:panel_it4.png?id=xubuntu%3Anatty_panel <micahg> I don't have the wireless <micahg> or the name thingy <ochosi> micahg: and the rest is there? (the lower panel is on autohide by default) <ochosi> check in the panel preferences whether the systray and the indicator plugin are there, if not, add them * micahg doesn't see a systray option <micahg> but all the other old icons are there <ochosi> no, i mean check in the panel preferences (there's an item-list) whether the indicator plugin is there and if not add it and restart the panel <micahg> indicator-plugin is there, but I don't have the network indicator, I just want nm-applet <ochosi> nm-applet can be either displayed as indicator or as systray-icon <ochosi> that depends on what you have in your panel <micahg> ugh, I have both <ochosi> if indicator-plugin is there, nm-applet will behave like an indicator <ochosi> if both are there, it's also an indicator <micahg> ok, so indicators were messed up, removed indicator plugin and got my session menu back <ochosi> right * micahg gives up on nm-applet until monday <ochosi> right <ochosi> well, dunno, for me it works either way * micahg will just blame cyphermox :) <ochosi> is that an indicator-dev? <micahg> no, he's the network manager dev <ochosi> right :) #xubuntu-devel 2011-03-07 <micahg> mr_pouit: can I pull in the new xfce4-mixer? <mr_pouit> micahg: feel free to do it <micahg> mr_pouit: thanks, will do later this week <mr_pouit> (it's not really bugfix only, so I've been too lazy because of the possible paper work) <micahg> mr_pouit: I think we want it though, right? <micahg> I'm guessing we're less likely to have issues with teh 4.8 mixer than the 4.6 one <mr_pouit> We already ship the most important bugfixes as patches <mr_pouit> but the libxfce4ui port might be interesting (although we won't get rid of libxfcegui4 anytime soon) <micahg> mr_pouit: I actually don't have the xfce4-mixer anymore after I upgraded to natty, figured being 4.6.x might be part of the reason * micahg wants to get rid of the gnome-media stuff <mr_pouit> micahg: mmh, what do you mean? <micahg> gnome-media applets replaced xfce4-mixer in my panel on upgrade <micahg> also, I haven't been able to get nm-applet back on the panel <micahg> I couldn't see the session applet until I removed the indicator applet <mr_pouit> A lot of useless things are probably pulled in on upgrades :/ <mr_pouit> e.g. gnome-media, gnome-system-monitor, and indicator-appmenu <mr_pouit> (xfce4-mixer should still be installable though, even if it's not in the default panel config) <charlie-tca> Good morning <micahg> good morning <micahg> I found something else that should go in the launcher, pidgin :) * micahg is on naowtty n <micahg> *natty now <charlie-tca> pidgin is in the indicator panel, you don't need a launcher to start it <charlie-tca> just click the envelope in the panel <micahg> that's thunderbird <charlie-tca> no, the top panel has an envelope that is the indicators, it should start pidgin there * micahg thinks he got rid of that <charlie-tca> heh <charlie-tca> Well, that should start pidgin for you, though. lol <charlie-tca> The good thing is you can drag and drop a launcher into the panel <micahg> indicators were broke on the first load, maybe I'll try them again tomorrow (have work to do today :)) <charlie-tca> Just add pidgin to the launcher panel. I never use it, myself. <ochosi> hey charlie-tca <charlie-tca> Hello, ochosi <ochosi> i fixed a few problems in greybird over the weekend, and there was also one more thing i wanted to propose <ochosi> at first i wanted to make the indicator-menus fit the panel-color (atm they are bright like all other menus) <ochosi> and then i realized that if i make them dark, it seems inconsistent with the app-menu and the session-menu <charlie-tca> Aren't they a menu, too? <ochosi> yeah, but that's the thing: <ochosi> appmenu and session-menu are generic gtk-menus, so you can't theme them directly without theming all the other menus as well <ochosi> so basically i went ahead and tried that <ochosi> in fact i think it makes the menus in all applications stand out a little more, they're more visible <ochosi> but you could also argue that a bright menubar with a dark menu looks inconsistent <ochosi> anyhow, i think it'd be best if you gave it a try yourself <charlie-tca> okay, where do I grab it? <ochosi> btw, there are no applications that have troubles with this, i fixed ooo, firefox etc. and all of them are ok <ochosi> charlie-tca: https://github.com/shimmerproject/Greybird/archives/master <ochosi> it's rather easy to switch the dark menus on and off <ochosi> i can comment the code in a way that a user can quickly switch back to bright/dark menus (whatever we decide for in the end) <charlie-tca> Original menus are light/medium grey? <ochosi> yeah, the original menus are grey <ochosi> they look consistent, but they don't stand out from the rest of the window very much <ochosi> i think that's the biggest gain <charlie-tca> okay, I just realized I have no menus <ochosi> and of course the panel-menus look a lot more consistent now <ochosi> you don't? <ochosi> no xfce4-appmenu? <ochosi> in thunar there also should be menus <charlie-tca> no, I upgraded to natty before alpha1. When Xfce4.8 came along, the application menu was broken <ochosi> right <ochosi> well, most other apps should have menus too <ochosi> firefox, thunar etc <charlie-tca> I never added it to the panel <ochosi> even if you don't you'll see the difference in the session-menu <ochosi> and the indicators <charlie-tca> I have no indicators, either <ochosi> right :) <charlie-tca> I don't even have the right panels <ochosi> well, nvm <charlie-tca> it's okay, I have the greybird theme at least <charlie-tca> the panels are the right colors <ochosi> yeah <charlie-tca> I just had it all set up, and it works real good for me <ochosi> good to hear <ochosi> well check out how it works with the latest greybird for you and let me know <charlie-tca> that's why I have to install from the images every day or two <charlie-tca> That's when I see the real changes we made <ochosi> mmh <ochosi> yeah the greybird changes i just talked about haven't been pushed to xubuntu yet, they're only in git <ochosi> ok, i'll be back later <charlie-tca> Got the download, will put it all in themes <charlie-tca> micahg: can you take a look at the latest theme? <charlie-tca> I like it <charlie-tca> a lot <micahg> charlie-tca: maybe this evening <charlie-tca> okay, thanks <charlie-tca> dictionary plugin works good on panel, verve plugin - text typed matches the color of the background, and is not visible; xfce4-timer-plugin - scale is black, can not see the bar graph move <charlie-tca> well, erased the wrong drive on my test install today; got to set a new install for the grandkids again <micahg> indicator plugin + nm-applet is broke <charlie-tca> unity auto login is broken too <charlie-tca> what did we break? <charlie-tca> you said you removed that indicator thing <micahg> yep, when I add it back, nm-applet goes away <micahg> or rather is hidden <micahg> and I can't get it back unless I restart the panel <charlie-tca> oh, yeah, it hides. Click where it should be, it should still work <charlie-tca> i forgot that one <micahg> items list doesn't show it <charlie-tca> should still be on the panel, maybe as a blank space <micahg> items should show everything in the panel <micahg> and no, I can't click it <charlie-tca> hm, unity is nice, but very hard for new users to find anything that is not already in the launcher panel <ochosi> micahg: no, items list doesn't show anything inside the indicator applet <micahg> ah, hmm <ochosi> micahg: are you using a vertical or a horizontal panel? * micahg tries adding back the indicator applet to see if nm-applet appears <micahg> horizontal <ochosi> micahg: afaik indicators can only be used in a horizontal panel <ochosi> k <ochosi> do a "xfce4-panel --restart" after adding the indicator plugin <mr_pouit> yeah, the current callback for xfce4-indicator-plugin in orientation-changed does nothing =] <ochosi> hehe, in fact i read the code a while ago and was wondering why there was code for it that does nothing :) <micahg> indicator-plugin has no width <charlie-tca> Isn't horizontal only going to lead to a lot of user issues? <ochosi> charlie-tca: how do you mean? <ochosi> charlie-tca: both our panels are horizontal atm and afaik the xubuntu/ubuntu panels always have been (without unity) <mr_pouit> micahg: feel free to create a patch, I already heavily patched it to make it work <micahg> the dock works vertical <mr_pouit> (I sent them upstream too) <micahg> mr_pouit: that doesn't sound good :-/ <mr_pouit> well, it's definitely not cool, but many panel plugins work badly with vertical panels <ochosi> i have to say vertical panel has improved a lot since 4.6 <ochosi> e.g. the window-buttons <micahg> well, I'm just worried about the indicator plugin horizontal ATM <ochosi> micahg: you mean the indicators work vertically but not horizontally? <charlie-tca> yes, we default to horizontal, but users can make them vertical. If a default plugin fails then, we did that to them <micahg> ochosi: no, they don't work horizontally on the top panel (I haven't tried vertically) <ochosi> charlie-tca: not sure that if a user changes something about the config we provide him with it's the best phrasing to say "we did that to them", because even technically they did it to themselves <ochosi> charlie-tca: also, we can't fix everything that doesn't work upstream (even though mr_pouit does a hell of a job trying ;) ) <charlie-tca> It is our position to provide the best possible user experience. We don't invalidate a bug because a user changed something. and we should not be telling the user, you moved something, so you broke it * micahg will be uploading a new version of crashtastic midori tonight <ochosi> micahg: nice, looking forward to testing midori again <mr_pouit> micahg: huhu, I thought it had improved <charlie-tca> By using the indicator applet, we created the defaults. To tell them they broke it by moving the panel is werong <charlie-tca> s/werong/wrong <micahg> 0.3.0 is horrible * micahg is hoping 0.3.2 is better (paperwork done :)) <ochosi> charlie-tca: well, i didn't mean the bug is invalid, but i thought we already try to provide the best user experience by using the panel config we developed over the last months * micahg is notorious for filing lots of FFes <charlie-tca> well, we are. but did we know the indicator applet has to stay horizontal? <charlie-tca> It's like the session menu bug. I have not had a failure since I removed that thing <ochosi> hm, i wasn't consciously thinking of it, but i experienced it before <charlie-tca> Lack of information makes for bad decisions, sometimes * ochosi hasn't experienced any session-menu probs lately <charlie-tca> I will say we seem to be making a better user experience that Unity is, right now <charlie-tca> I think removing the menus is a bad thing for Ubuntu. It is not easy for the new user to find anything, including how to add new users <micahg> especially if the search doesn't work :-/ <charlie-tca> even if it does, if you came from windows, what would you search for? <charlie-tca> I just locked up Ubuntu completely, trying to set the screensaver <mr_pouit> I'll say it, one last time: the "logout-to-gdm-instead-of-reboot" is not specific to xfsm-logout-plugin... <charlie-tca> mr_pouit: I keep hearing that, but not using session menu solved it here, on three systems <mr_pouit> well, good for you <mr_pouit> for me, using applications > logout, I always return to gdm <charlie-tca> OTOH, none were virtual machines <charlie-tca> remove session menu, add Action Buttons, first restart goes to gdm, then it works <charlie-tca> As long as session menu is in the panel, it fails * micahg had that happen in a non-virtual machine as well <ochosi> charlie-tca: what do you think of the new greybird-menus? <knome> charlie-tca, the slideshow is pending on your opinion on the greybird menus. can you give one? <charlie-tca> ochosi: I like it, a lot <charlie-tca> It does show up much better <ochosi> ok cool :) <ochosi> happy to hear that <ochosi> as stated above i tested it in natty and maverick with the known troublemaker-apps like firefox and libreoffice and it all seems to work great <charlie-tca> wonderful! They really are more visible, and I don't think the contrast is bad <ochosi> yeah, the contrast is the same as in the panel <ochosi> so it should work ok for dark and bright icons <ochosi> and i also tried to make the text very readable <charlie-tca> knome: explain? <charlie-tca> what about greybird menus? <ochosi> he meant that the menus will show up in the screenshots for the slideshow and i'm about to do them ;) <ochosi> will or might show up <charlie-tca> It would be good to showcase them <ochosi> yes, that's what i thought <ochosi> especially since we'll show the application menu <knome> :) <knome> no problem then <charlie-tca> and we have Oneiric Ocelot coming next! <charlie-tca> oneiric is pronounced own-eye-rick <ochosi> yeah, that'll definitely be harder for non-native speakers than "natty" or "maverick" <charlie-tca> um, it is not really all that common for native speakers <ochosi> hm yeah, i guessed so :) <ochosi> it sounds a bit obscure <ochosi> as in: obscure ocelot <charlie-tca> http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/audio/lunaWAV/O01/O0101300.wav <charlie-tca> is the official pronunciation <charlie-tca> It just hurts my eyes to say it... :-( <micahg> oh, is lightdm not provided on upgrades? <micahg> and where should I file a missing menu category icon bug under? <charlie-tca> lightdm is in the repository, but we are not using it yet <charlie-tca> which category is missing the icon? <micahg> oh, ok <micahg> Education <Sysi> any plans about 4.8 lucid ppa? <charlie-tca> not yet, Sysi <Sysi> http://forum.xfce.org/viewtopic.php?id=5712 koshi says there are some problems, i'm gonna try if it works self-compiled <charlie-tca> micahg: I am looking <mr_pouit> micahg: elementary-icon-theme, but upstream is on lp as well, so you might want to check their bzr branch before reporting <micahg> mr_pouit: ok, thanks <micahg> charlie-tca: where's the Firefox menu for you? in the panel or in Firefox? <charlie-tca> firefox <charlie-tca> Tell me we have not followed ubuntu's lead and moved them to the panel, please. <charlie-tca> Unity is about the hardest, least accessible thing I have tried yet <micahg> the xfce4-indicator-plugin is claiming it supports it, so I lost my menus <mr_pouit> remove indicator-appmenu <micahg> ugh, then I can't test unity :-/ <micahg> that's probably what's killing it though <mr_pouit> I've a work-in-progress patch to blacklist it from xfce4-indicator-plugin if you want to test <micahg> mr_pouit: sure <micahg> PPA or patch <charlie-tca> right now, to use unity requires a hardware keyboard and mouse <mr_pouit> micahg: http://lionel.lefolgoc.net/misc/xfce4-indicator-plugin/debian-changes-0.2.0-0ubuntu3 <charlie-tca> Those who can not use the keyboard are screwed <mr_pouit> micahg: and the plugin config is http://lionel.lefolgoc.net/misc/xfce4-indicator-plugin/indicator-5.rc (for the default config, you can put it in /etc/xdg/xdg-xubuntu/xfce4/panel or in $HOME/.config/xfce4/panel/) <micahg> mr_pouit: that version appears to be in natty <mr_pouit> yep, that's a quick hack <mr_pouit> (I didn't bump the version locally) <micahg> k, thanks <micahg> mr_pouit: didn't seem to work, I restarted the panel after I rebuilt with it <mr_pouit> micahg: does the plugin number of the config file match yours? <mr_pouit> (in the default xubuntu config, indicator is the 5th plugin, but for you it might be different) <mr_pouit> so you have to change the filename (indicator-XX.rc) <micahg> where do I find this info? <micahg> is this the list in the panel prefs? <mr_pouit> usually, grep indicator ~/.config/xfce4/xfconf/xfce-perchannel-xml/xfce4-panel.xml <mr_pouit> yeah, or in the prefs <mr_pouit> (the tooltip will give you the internal name) <micahg> mr_pouit: it works, now the trick must be to get the numbers aligned :), it's 6 fo rme <micahg> and now it's beautiful :) <mr_pouit> thanks for alpha testing ;-) <micahg> no problem, I'm happy to have nm-applet working :) * micahg loves fixes that can be applies in under 5 minutes :) <micahg> *applied #xubuntu-devel 2011-03-08 <charlie-tca> mr_pouit: powerpc builds are stopped <ochosi> good news everyone, there'll be a new release of the elementary icons really soon (as in: within the next days) and my patch for the bug with the appfinder (appfinder-icon == catfish-icon) is included <micahg> ochosi: is the missing education icon known? <ochosi> micahg: is it also missing in bzr? <micahg> ochosi: idk, haven't checked yet <ochosi> i'll quickly have a look <ochosi> micahg: sry, can't say whether it's known, it seems to be missing though: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~elementarydesign/elementaryicons/trunk/files/head:/elementary-icon-theme/elementary/categories/24/?file_id=categories-20091112072358-d8c4uieo922x9z6k-20 <micahg> ochosi: do you want me to file a bug, if so where <ochosi> i'm not sure, i quickly have to reboot to get from my testing to my working env and then i'll get back to you <micahg> ochosi: I also wanted to make sure the category should be there according to the spec <ochosi> i'll try to communicate with upstream directly and see whether we can fix it before the release <ochosi> hm yeah, probably taking a look at the spec beforehands makes sense :) <ochosi> brb <ochosi> micahg: so we have to check the fd.org specs for icons, right? <micahg> ochosi: idk :) <ochosi> lol <ochosi> two experts talking :) <micahg> I'm just starting to get involved here :) <ochosi> micahg: http://standards.freedesktop.org/icon-naming-spec/icon-naming-spec-latest.html go to "Table 5." <ochosi> what apps are using the category education? <micahg> just anki ATM, which leads me to believe it's wrong <ochosi> right, never heard of anki before <ochosi> probably file the bug there ,) <charlie-tca> um, gcompris uses Education too <charlie-tca> It is an application aimed at helping kids learn the computer <charlie-tca> as well as teaching numbers and alphabet <ochosi> hm, well somehow it doesn't seem fd.org compliant to use that category <ochosi> but hey, basically anyone can create categories as they please :) <charlie-tca> Ubuntu uses education also <ochosi> to the worst we can fix that bug by throwing ubuntu's education icon into elementaryXubuntu <charlie-tca> That might be the best way to do it, there are other education applications, but I can't remember them now <charlie-tca> and, I just re-formatted the drive with them... :-( <micahg> maybe we should ask dobey since he wrote the spec :) <ochosi> micahg: sure, go ahead :) <charlie-tca> the other side will be the number of reports we get based on the category without an icon <micahg> charlie-tca: well, if the category shouldn't be there, we should fix the packages <charlie-tca> Great idea. Can we start with gcompris, which I install for kids to use? <micahg> charlie-tca: sure, I can fix it, once we confirm where the issue is <charlie-tca> I take it back, Ubuntu no longer uses menus for anything <ochosi> :) <charlie-tca> mr_pouit, ochosi : slideshow in today's desktop image is only the last page <charlie-tca> hm, then it appears to actually start and go throguh slides <charlie-tca> micahg: yes, pidgin starts from the indicator-plugin on the live desktop <mr_pouit> slideshows haven't been touched yet, anyway <charlie-tca> they are acting weird for some reason <mr_pouit> micahg: if it's not supposed to be here, I can remove the education category from the default xubuntu menu file <mr_pouit> but afaik, this category exists and is valid <charlie-tca> It starts as a blank, goes to the last page, then starts over and works <micahg> mr_pouit: yeah, I'll have to talk to dobey, it's not on the freedesktop spec <mr_pouit> http://standards.freedesktop.org/menu-spec/latest/apa.html <mr_pouit> it's here, at least <micahg> mr_pouit: ah, that's probably the more recent one, ochosi gave me an outdated link :) <mr_pouit> no, that wasn't the same spec <mr_pouit> (icon vs. menu) <micahg> mr_pouit: how do we resolve the 2 <mr_pouit> hehe <micahg> mr_pouit: I got the ACK from mythbuntu on updating xfce4-mixer, I'll file the paperwork soon, builds fine as well, but needs merge due to epoch <micahg> mr_pouit: do you have a branch for it, or can I just upload? <charlie-tca> At least I don't need Alt+sysRq+k to get the desktop in Xubuntu <charlie-tca> mr_pouit: desktop image works today; install completed without crashes; restarted to the desktop without crashes <charlie-tca> ochosi: got two workspaces in the live cd, 4 workspaces in the installed desktop <mr_pouit> micahg: I used bzr branches for one release, and then I threw everything to /dev/null, the launchpad importer was never up to date when I needed it <mr_pouit> so, no branch <micahg> mr_pouit: heh, ok, do you want to maintain in Debian git? <micahg> or is it not worth it for these minor diffs? <mr_pouit> yeah, we'll put branches in debian git, when pkg-xfce uses it too (for the moment it's still svn and no migration has been planned ;-) <mr_pouit> I don't even remember why xfce4-mixer has an epoch <mr_pouit> iirc, it's not even said in debian/changelog <mr_pouit> that's a great epic fail <mr_pouit> so feel free to upload directly <mr_pouit> charlie-tca: nice, thanks for testing <micahg> mr_pouit: * Sync with os-works.com. <micahg> almost 6 yrs ago <mr_pouit> micahg: where do you see that? I can't find it in debian/changelog apparently <micahg> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xfce4-mixer/+changelog <mr_pouit> ah indeed <mr_pouit> that was a bad move :( <micahg> apparently Ubuntu was much looser with epoch bumps in the past, now they are frowned upon <mr_pouit> (tbh, ubuntu was much looser with everything, especially badly/undocumented merges :) <mr_pouit> oops, I should refresh the pages before replying to a bug :> <charlie-tca> I hate when I do that <mr_pouit> well, I just did that to the claws-indicator bug ;> <charlie-tca> Of course, with all the advances made in browser technology, you would think they would refresh automatically by now <charlie-tca> They can do it on pages full of garbage, why not on pages you care about? <charlie-tca> Hm, I would file that as a suggestion/wishlist, but mozilla won t allow me to file anything greater than a stupid 140 characters <micahg> charlie-tca: ? <charlie-tca> you can click feedback in 4.0b12, and give a 140 character comment. Nothing else works <Sysi> i think there's been automatic reload since like 2.0, but i dunno how to use it <charlie-tca> which makes it useless? <Sysi> i've never needed it.. <Sysi> https://addons.mozilla.org/en-us/firefox/addon/reloadevery/ <charlie-tca> not built in, ? <Sysi> apparently <micahg> charlie-tca: idk, ask chrisccoulson about that #xubuntu-devel 2011-03-09 <ochosi> micahg: any chance we can integrate this in xubuntu anytime soon? https://code.launchpad.net/messagingmenu-extension <micahg> ochosi: I don't know if that's going to land this cycle <micahg> definitely for O <ochosi> ok <ochosi> would be really nice to have it this cycle but i guess it's already pretty late <micahg> actually, I shouldn't say definitely, but it's on the radar :) <ochosi> .9 <ochosi> :) <ochosi> ok, i thought i might give it a try later in natty <jo-erlend> I'd like to learn how to write xfce4-panel applets using Python and PyGTK. Any recomendations? <ochosi> jo-erlend: hmyeah, first recommendation is to join #xfce and then try to get a voice in #xfce-dev <jo-erlend> #xfce tells me to ask in #xfce-dev and those are, as you say, moderated and I have no idea how to get voiced. <ochosi> you have to ask one of the people who can give you a voice, e.g. JPohlmann <mr_pouit> afaik, #xfce-dev isn't voiced anymore? <ochosi> no? <jo-erlend> you're right. They aren't moderated anymore. I guess I just gave up too early. :) <mr_pouit> anyway, it would require python bindings for xfce4-panel, and I don't think they are available (or up-to-date) <jo-erlend> heh... There's always something, isn't there. <jo-erlend> guess I can stick with gnome-panel for the time being. Shouldn't be too difficult to move them to xfce4-panel plugins later. But I really prefer the xfce4-panel to gnome-panel. #xubuntu-devel 2011-03-10 <pleia2> btw: http://ubuntu-news.org/2011/03/10/wiki-ubuntu-com-upgrade-update/ <pleia2> so maybe maybe in 2 weeks the wiki shall rise again <Sysi> so, have the default applications all been decided, and do we have any space on installation disk? i've talked about adding pavucontrol earlier already, bu i think not in correct place <charlie-tca> Good morning <charlie-tca> yes, default apps have been decided <Sysi> it's a bit weird that we have pulseaudio and only control to it is volume control in xfce4-mixer <Sysi> but of course people needing it can install it later <charlie-tca> It is also weird that I have never installed that and still get sound? <Sysi> well you have that sound control :P <Sysi> hum, does switching soundcard from xfce4-mixer work for pulseaudio? <charlie-tca> I seem to be in minority too, I think, when it comes to getting sound to work without pavucontrol <charlie-tca> I only have one soundcard <Sysi> i don't use pulseaudio at all <charlie-tca> I use it, because it allows sound from virtualbox machines and the hardware at the same time <charlie-tca> ochosi: from #xubunru <charlie-tca> <halaszvarig> I just finished a google chrome theme matching the new greybird xubuntu look: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/djhdibfheaidnhfnhhnmdngcmjpicpkn <ochosi> charlie-tca: hm, the guy isn't there anymore
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