#ubuntu-meeting 2005-04-01 <bluefoxicy> next tech board meeting is when <bluefoxicy> 29 mar 2005 2000utc <bluefoxicy> 3pm on a tuesday. * OddAbe19 is back (gone 07:44:24) #ubuntu-meeting 2005-04-02 * ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:fabbione] : Tuesday 22 March 2005 22:00 UTC: Community Council -- https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/CommunityCouncilAgenda || This is NOT #ubuntu, nor #ubuntu-devel <dholbach> 22:00 UTC? <dholbach> fabbione: when did it get re-scheduled? * ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:dholbach] : Tuesday 22 March 2005 22:00 UTC: Community Council -- https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/CommunityCouncilAgenda || http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Calendar || This is NOT #ubuntu, nor #ubuntu-devel <avdyk> hi <mako> greetings all <dholbach> hey mako <Kamion> yo <fabbione> yo <Phython> G'day <dholbach> hey everyone else :-) <mdke> hi all <avdyk> hi all <amu> moin <ogra> yay mako <ogra> amu, moin ? <ogra> *g* <jbailey> moin. =) <T-Bone> moo * fabbione moins too <ogra> meeh <mako> wow.. this place just came alive :) * Kamion quails slightly at the length of the agenda <mako> yeah.. <Kamion> will we have elmo and sabdfl? <amu> ogra: hehe, it's a also short for g'morning *eg* <jbailey> Kamion: Don't they hunt quails in your part of the world? <mako> unclear.. i know the elmo forgot the moved time <jbailey> mako: The agenda had it wrong as of this morning, anyway. * mvo waves <mako> crap <dholbach> mako: it was set today at 12:00 <mako> jbailey: really.. i must have gone 6 hours in the wrong direction :-/ <mako> but yeah.. anywya <mako> i set it in the channel last time though <mako> correctly <dholbach> and we said "motumeeting will be after CC meeting", so we'll have big fun ... all sleeping away :-) <fabbione> mako: topic was changed and NOT restored <dholbach> set it on wiki/Calendar :-) <mdz> I don't think sabdfl will be here <mdz> mako: elmo noticed the moved time earlier today <mako> well, we decided to move on a rotating schedule last time.. we've got folks all around the world we're asking to come meet with us during these meetings <mako> so, fabbione suggested trying a shifting time through one or two cycles <dholbach> good idea <mako> which people gave the nod to last time.. that was befre they were asked to get up at 4am :) <dholbach> if everyone knows ;-) <mako> alright.. so we won't have sabdfl <mako> mdz: should i bother to sms? <Kamion> right, I'm not looking forward to the next one ... but it's the night before release candidate so I'll be awake anyway <mako> Kamion: heh :) <fabbione> Kamion: and all the others with you :) <mako> the one after that one is going to be the one taht kills me <mako> well, the next one is semi-alright for me :) <mako> but it goes downhill quickly after that <Kamion> s/release candidates/release/ <fabbione> as you can all see.. we can share the pain :) <mdz> mako: can't hurt <mdz> mako: unless you get him in trouble ;-) <mako> ok.. let me sms sabdfl and then we'll move ahead * mdz cues up some community council music <tseng> oh, its that time again * ogra wishes for nas <mako> alright then <mako> smurfix: you around? * mako smsed mark <mako> alright.. lets move ahead <mako> agenda is at: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/CommunityCouncilAgenda <mako> smurfix should head things off if he's around <mako> are there any loco folks here? * mdke puts hand up for italy <ogra> i think abelli dropped his team lead <mako> Timo we talked too.. gotta remove him from the list <mako> ogra: yes, i was very involved in that discussion :-/ <mako> mdke: cool.. lets come back to that towward the end .. <ogra> oh, ok...i only saw the last parts with jdub <mdke> yep <mako> mdke: since it's s special issue, not introducing a new loco leader <mdke> cool ty <mako> JooCruz? <mako> LogiotatidisGiorgos? <smurfix> here <mako> smurfix: hola! <smurfix> sorry for being late, got lost in my tax forms :-/ * mako remembers he has to do taxes in a few weeks <mako> smurfix: any comments on the loco teams leaders on the agenda? <smurfix> mako: one moment * mako nods <mako> DarthFrog: nice nick :) <DarthFrog> mako: Thanks. :-) <mako> mdke: <mako> mdke: false alarm <mdke> lol <mako> DarthFrog: we're going over proposed local community leaders <DarthFrog> mako: Thanks for bringing me up to speed. * tseng volunteers for the C locale <tseng> heh. <ogra> lol <smurfix> No problem with any of them <mako> smurfix: have you been in contact with all of them? <mdz> except that they aren't here ;-) <mako> ultimately, it's up to smurf.. but we should definitely tell them to drop in and talk the council <mdz> Simira is travelling, I believe <mako> to let us know how things are going in their loco, etc * mako nods <smurfix> mako: Yep (though not specifically WRT the CC meeting). Also checked the *Team pages * mako nods <mako> sounds perfect <mako> i've talked to a number of them as well <mdke> canada are starting a pretty well organised team <smurfix> People should know to show up here, it's on the howto page <mdke> they're not on the agenda i noticed <ogra> mdke, next time then <mdke> i'll let em know <mako> great then <mako> i guess we can move on <mako> member candidates <avdyk> talkin' to me?! <mako> we looked at a few of these last night <mako> avdyk: yes! :) <mako> sorry.. last time <mako> avdyk: alright, you're first up <avdyk> yep... but I was not here :( <mako> cool.. well i thin kthe problem last time was that we didn't think the page really spoke for itself <ogra> mako, and Q-Funk wanted to talk to you about his wiki page... did he ? <mdz> mako: MatthewWeaver was already approved last time, was he not? <mako> ogra: definitely <Kamion> didn't we ok avdyk last time round? <jbailey> Kamion: No, you wanted people who weren't present to come to the CC meetin.g <mako> no, we didn't <mako> at least it's not in my notes <mako> avdyk: want to give us the summaery of your work in ubuntu so far? <mako> For The Record :) <avdyk> I didn't do nothing at the moment, I was contacted to make some java synchronisation between debian and ubuntu if I recall <Kamion> jbailey: ah yes, although it wasn't me who said that in Arnaud's case <Kamion> (http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ubuntu-meeting-2005-03-08.html) <mako> avdyk: ok.. the policy here is usually to hold off on membership until we've seen substantial contributions <avdyk> mako: I understand that <mako> avdyk: so the java sync stuff sounds killer.. are you working with the motu folks on that? <mako> avdyk: when you think you've got a bit of stuff. try to get a few exisiting members to vouche for you and point to your stuff and it should be uncontroversial :) <avdyk> mako: I'm just trying to have a working kaffe in debian on all arches at the moment :-D <mako> avdyk: awesome :) <avdyk> I also work a lot moving java packages to main (in debian) <mdz> avdyk: jbailey and wasabi are both working on java in Ubuntu <Kamion> jbailey: have you been working with avdyk? <Kamion> or intending to, anyway <jbailey> Kamion: YEs. Avdyk is the Debian maintainer of most of the Java packages. <jbailey> Kamion: He, Wasabi, man-di and I work in #ubuntu-java on the packages. <jbailey> The idea is to keep sync as much as possible. <mako> avdyk: it sounds like once you get a little more active directly in the ubuntu community, this will be pretty easy :) <ogra> sounds like a reasonable contribution <avdyk> I don't have a lot of time at the moment so I concentrate on kaffe, moving java packages to main and the next step will be to package tomcat5 <jbailey> Often the work is discussion around the best way to do things to make sure the packages stay in sync. <avdyk> mako: no problem <mako> alright then.. <avdyk> I want you to know that I don't wanna have one more email address! ;-) <avdyk> I'm fine with submitting patches first, then we can discuss of a collaboration * mako sets up an amy08@example.org alias for avdyk <mako> avdyk: sounds great <avdyk> ;-) <mako> avdyk: you think i'm joking? :) <mako> MartinEricRacine ? <ogra> mako, Q-Funk's page seems not to have changed <avdyk> mako: don't know this FQDN ;-) <mako> yes.. :) <ogra> mako, iirc you wanted it a bit more detailed <mako> we talked a bit but i guess he didn't get around to making the changes <mako> ogra: yes <ogra> he didnt do any MOTU work yet either...despite asking questions... <mako> since it doesn't appear to have changed and since he's not here. i'm hesistant to defer another week <mako> alight <Kamion> may as well postpone, doesn't do any harm <mako> not hesitant, that's what i want to do * mako nods <mako> alright.. hopefully he can talk to me more in the next few weeks <ogra> mako, i pointed him to you several times <Kamion> any contact with Hiweed since last meeting? * dholbach not <mako> no.. IIRC i sent him a mail <mako> haven't heard back <elmo> mako: you have this cute wetware bug where you keep saying the exact opposite of what you mean ;) <ogra> heh <mako> elmo: man.. i know.. luckily it's mostly limited to irc * ogra has no idea who HiweedLeng might be <mako> alright then.. lets move on then <tseng> i seem to recall a hiweed working on a chinese dirivative <tseng> but he doesnt work inside ubuntu yet, afaik <Kamion> Matthew Weaver was already approved as a member last week; until he shows up and wants MOTU, I move that we drop him from the agenda <tseng> only saw him pop up on irc once <mako> yes, absolutely <mako> jorge is doing motu stuff now, right? <ogra> koke ! <koke> pong <mako> koke: oi :) <ogra> yeah, and pretty good MOTU stuff :) <Kamion> agenda updated <tseng> jorge was tooling around with beagle, other than that i dont know of anything <dholbach> he rocks! <mako> koke: btw: nice wiki page <tseng> koke++ <koke> tseng: that's other jorge <Kamion> who is responsible for updating UbuntuMembers? <Kamion> it hasn't been updated since forever <mdz> Kamion: mako, of course ;-) <tseng> oh you are jorge? <Kamion> and we keep losing track <mako> *shit* <tseng> nm then :) <mako> well.. i have a text file i'll port over to the wiki <Kamion> mako: thanks, that would be good <ogra> Kamion, sivang once said he would take the task <mako> handling membership and signed CoCs has been a bit of a PITA recently <mako> elmo and i worked out a system yesterday <mdz> mako: oh, good <Kamion> it's currently kept in order of joining <mako> that involves a gpg signed file <mako> that i keep up to date <Kamion> ogra: I think it probably needs to be a CC member <mako> i'm happy to just put that in my webspace on rookery <mako> and have that be the canonical(!) location <ogra> so what about koke ? * mako is happy approving koke <ogra> yeah <dholbach> YEAH! <mako> Kamion, elmo: ? <tseng> koke++ (again) <Kamion> one sec <elmo> err, one sec for me too <ogra> he helped a LOT in the several transitions <mako> no problem <mdz> koke seems to have been busy <Kamion> oh yeah, I remember him now, koke++ <ogra> 16 sponsored uploads <mvo> koke++ too <Kamion> (for member) <mako> Kamion: right <elmo> koke member++ <dholbach> koke: 16 already? <mako> koke: congrats dude <koke> 16? age? <mako> welcome on board :) <koke> thanks all! :D <dholbach> koke: sponsored uploads ;-) <mdz> koke: congratulations <ogra> dholbach, thats what my search in hoary-changes says <ogra> yeah, koke congrats !! <mako> JamesAMorrison ? <dholbach> koke: thanks for working with us :-) <Phython> mako: Me <mako> cool <mako> i recieved a signed coc from you today i think <Phython> mako: I sent it yesterday <Phython> You got my key sorted out? <koke> dholbach: I count 14 in my repos <Kamion> Phython: there's not much on your wiki page about stuff done for Ubuntu? <mako> perhaps not yet, but that can wait actually <Kamion> although I know your name from Debian <dholbach> koke: ah... i remember the first one... and again... and again ;-) <koke> mako: I think I sent you about a month ago, can you confirm, please? <Phython> Kamion: no there isn't. About the most I've done is tried to help pitti understand why drepper was threatening to haunt him <Kamion> heh <mako> koke: yeah dude.. confirmed :) * dholbach doesnt understand <tseng> mixed up in the glibc cabal eh <Phython> Kamion: I tried doing the release assistant stuff a couple years ago, but couldn't keep up. <tseng> they'll cut you <mako> koke: i think i sent you an email at the time <elmo> The Drepper hits! The Phython deflects the blow! <Kamion> yeah, I remember (and know the feeling nowadays ...) <Phython> tseng: I've only sent a couple mails towards glibc, most ended quickly <ajmitch__> Phython: more of a gcc hacker then? <pitti> Phython: btw, I now replied with a detailled spec and better explanation, let's see what happens :-) <Phython> ajmitch__: yes <tseng> Phython: good to have you on board, just sounds like not enough of us are familiar with you yet to make judgement call <dholbach> Phython: you wrote retchmail? <tseng> unless someone else steps in :) <Phython> dholbach: No, I maintained it in debian until sfllaw took over the packages <Phython> then things went back by the looks of the bts <mako> retchmail?! * mako giggles * dholbach wants retchmail back in Debian <Phython> dholbach: That's on my list of things to do today <dholbach> woohoo <dholbach> and wvstreams4 in ubuntu ;-) <ajmitch__> tseng: enough of us know him though :) <Phython> unforunatly I just noticed treelang is busted if you need to use GC * ogra recognized Phython yesterday the first time in #ubuntu-motu <tseng> ajmitch__: oh, good <mako> i agree with tseng on this <Phython> ogra: That's when I showed up <ogra> yep <mako> Phython: want to come back in two weeks with a few uploads under your belt? <ogra> i got eagleyes <ogra> ;) <Phython> ogra: Oh, I found someone with gstreamer0.8-faad packages, I need to look at those now <Phython> mako: Sounds like a plan <ogra> great <mako> killer <tseng> yay <mako> moving on then... <mako> MichaelKoch <man-di> mako: thats me <mako> man-di: right <mako> java stuff, eh? :) <jbailey> mako: Same case as avdyk - We all do Java stuff. =) <mdz> man-di: you work on kaffe upstream, right? <man-di> mako: same case as avdyk I asssume <Kamion> ah, another Java cabal member :) <mdz> java in breezy is going to rock ;-) <Phython> jbailey: Did you push everyone into this meeting? <man-di> mdz: I help them with the classlib, orginally I work on GNU classpath upstream <man-di> mdz: and I'm part of GCJ team <jbailey> Phython: I had apparently misunderstood that the work that avdyk and man-di were doing in helping get the java bits together so far would be enough. My bad. <man-di> currently I try top package newer Eclispe <Kamion> jbailey: I'm sure it could be if it were clear :-) <man-di> damn typos * mako nods to Kamion <man-di> currently I try to package newer Eclipse <Kamion> jbailey: it's just not particularly clearly mentioned anywhere, given that the CC members are not people who know about Java <Kamion> walk us through it slowly :) <mdz> jbailey: I think you're the only one here who has worked with them, so we are dependent on you to tell us what they are up to and how they are doing * mako works hard to cultivate his ignorance in java <avdyk> man-di: you also move some java packages from contrib to main <jbailey> Kamion: Right. I'm going to work out getting the channel logged, so that we I can at least point to things concretely. <man-di> we want to use joined forces for Java with Ubuntu and Debian <mako> man-di: awesome :) <avdyk> free java! <jbailey> Basically avdyk and man-di are the main movers behind free Java in Debian. They're working with us so that we can reasonably keep sync between the two distros. <Kamion> jbailey: I'm happy to take your word for it, but just above avdyk himself said he hadn't done much :) <man-di> mako: currently Fedora leads in free Java (in my eyes) <man-di> Ubuntu and Debian together can perhaps change this <jbailey> Kamion: Right, that's why I find myself wishing for channel logs. =) <man-di> we try to create plans and implements to make all work smooth together <mdz> jbailey: what's involved on the Ubuntu side of keeping in sync? <jbailey> mdz: Right now we have a focussed goal on the Ubuntu side of using ecj and gij. After that we're moving pieces from multiverse into universe similar to the Debian transition of the JAva bits to main. <mako> wow.. sounds great <jbailey> alot of the Debian effort gets held up because of the NEW queue processing time. <mako> i'm very excited about free java <man-di> mako: thx <jbailey> So as we're getting ahead of Debian in a couple areas, we're working on making sure that most of what we do can be fed into Debian sanely to make sync'ing easier. <mako> great <man-di> mako: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/java-trap.html <mdz> jbailey: I guess what I'm asking is, what are/will the candidates be doing on the Ubuntu side of things to help with that (as opposed to the Debian side) <mako> mdz: it sounds like all of the work will be done for ubuntu first <mako> mdz: or much of at least <ogra> mako, but hangs in debians NEW queue ? <man-di> mdz: the Ubuntu has a little bit different goals as they are set now, we can help synchronizing packages and targeting the Ubuntu goals <man-di> mdz: e.g. Ubuntu targets on GCJ <jbailey> mdz: Right now, it's been alot of guidance and discussion around the apckaging and resolving problems. Much of the work may wind up in Ubuntu first because of the faster upload cycle. Ongoing, if it works out, there will be the group of us actively caring about Ubuntu in Java, although they may primarily care about Debian. <man-di> mdz: DEbian cant <mako> man-di: why not? <mako> (we should probably try to cut this a little short, as it's probably OT for a CC meeting) <mdz> are we consisdering universe maintainer status, or only membership? * tseng was about to ask that <tseng> :P <mdz> that should probably be indicated clearly on the agenda in the future <Kamion> I think it's still worthwhile <ogra> membershop <jbailey> membership. <man-di> mako: e.g. because the needed version is not in Debian yet and Debian wants diversity, Ubuntu wants a clean solution for the user <ogra> ship even <jbailey> If it makes sense for them to do full MOTU, that's something we can work out later. <mdz> oh, ok <azeem> Debian NEW is being processed again, so I don't think that's a big issue <mako> jbailey: yeah, we can bring that up with the motu team and any of the folks on the TB/CC <jbailey> mako: Right. <Kamion> ok, that's a good deal more than we'd heard previously; I'm willing to amend the earlier "wait and see" on avdyk if others agree * mako nods <jbailey> Kamion: Sorry about that. I need to figure out the best way to make sure these are presented well. <mako> yeah.. i think we should handle man-di and avdyk similarly here <mdz> if membership is the target, then jbailey's testimonial that they are actively contributing counts for a great deal <mako> jbailey: the best way is to make sure the wiki page has a claer list of the thing that the person has done <mako> alright then <mako> elmo: any objections to deciding on avdyk and man-di based on jbailey's testimony? <elmo> nope <mako> cool <mako> i'm happy with both on jbailey's word and the java stuff that has been done <mako> but i'd like to see more fleshed out wiki pages in the future :) <ogra> and a irc nick on the page would be awesome ;) <man-di> ogra: sorry <ogra> for every wiki page <mdz> a first-hand testimonial is more useful than a verbose wiki page, in my opinion <Kamion> ok then, avdyk and man-di both approved as member, that's the last of the new members <ogra> man-di, not only yours, i'm stumbling across that very often <Kamion> mdz: right, but having the latter means they're less likely to be deferred before we get round to hearing the testimonial :-) <ogra> man-di, its just not specified anywhere ;) <tseng> i think we should make sivangreen the official "template" <mako> ogra: seriously <tseng> for motu hopefuls <mako> tseng: totally, i'll do it <tseng> mako: cool, thanks! <ogra> tseng, hey thats actually a nice name <ogra> tseng, better then wannabes <tseng> yeah. <Kamion> ok. "Ubuntu website remake" is a leftover from last meeting, isn't it? <ogra> lets keep it <mako> Kamion: um.. it's been added and removed :) <mako> people *are* still brining it u <mako> up <mako> but yes <Kamion> well, it's still an open issue, but it's being acted on isn't it? <mako> but yes <mdz> Henrik is tracking that project <Kamion> so nothing for the CC to do <mdz> it's high priority * mako nods <mako> mdz: absolutely <Kamion> Vika is working on it too <mako> alright.. <mako> any kubunut news/items? <mako> kubuntu <mdz> Riddell: wasn't the preview announcement our "big announcement to the world"? <mako> Riddell: i think so :) <Kamion> that also looks like a leftover from last time <mdz> website seems more or less sorted, except for the registrar delay on kubuntu.org <mako> mdz: that was my comment <Kamion> as is LoCoTeam process <mako> is there anything the CC can do for kubuntu? <elmo> mdz: that's fixed <amu> not now, we're working on the last packages ... <mako> amu: sounds good <mdz> oh, so it is <mdz> elmo: excellent <mako> yeah.. loco team stuff <mako> ok.. so there was something of a mess with the italian team <mdz> indeed <mako> over the last 3 weeks probably <smurfix> actually it brew under the hood for longer <mako> basically, some people had some issues with leadership and communication and decisioning making within the team <mdz> abelli has been on #u-d nearly every day recently looking for sabdfl * mdke pops head up <mako> i can try to make it short <mdz> he doesn't seem to be here for the meeting, though? <mako> no.. he's largely disengaged <mako> so someone sent mail to info a few months ago complaining some issues with the loco team and the way it was working <mdke> he is not gonna get back involved i don't think <Kamion> I'd be interested in hearing from other Italian community folks; abelli has been by far the loudest, but loudest isn't always right :) <mako> but asked that nothing be done about it at the time <mako> things kind of simmered i supposed <mdke> i get on pretty well with him and have heard most of his complaints <Kamion> mdke: could you run us briefly through them? another angle would be good <mdke> hmm <mdke> he feels like he was cut out of the group by some people who conspired behind the scenes and went to mako <mdke> several other peopl left the team with him <mako> and he's upset at me for not telling me about the fact that people were upset with him <mdke> mako, yes although mainly with them * mako nods <mako> andrea and i still exchange email almost daily <Kamion> from what I remember, the people who came to mako said that they had tried to talk to abelli and got nowhere? <smurfix> Unfortunately he then didn't want to meet on IRC with me+mako recently, and dropped his name from the team list <mako> Kamion: well, originally, they jsut said "some people are having problems with the team. don't say anything. we're just going to keep working" <mako> that was 3-4 months ago <mako> more recently, things came more to the surface <Kamion> also, um; were there substantive issues with things that were/weren't being done, or was it purely a "who's in charge" thing? <mako> Kamion: depends on who you ask <Kamion> or a who's telling whom what to do thing <mdke> Kamion, power struggle if i've understood it correctly <mako> basically, everybody involved said that other folks were not really doing any work and only wanted power <smurfix> Kamion: puls leadership style issues, plus ... <mako> which put smurfix and i in a pretty strange position <smurfix> as I said, we tried to get the two sides to talk in the same room, but ... <mako> a whole number of people said "this other person is trying to rule the group in a bad way and they're not doing any real work" #ubuntu-meeting 2005-04-03 <mdke> mako, both sides seem to say that :/ <mako> mdke: exactly <Kamion> well, if they won't talk, then *somebody* has to go, I guess ... <smurfix> mdke: exactly, albeit differently <mdke> i have tried to mediate and proposed a solution <mako> smurfix and i talked to both sides seperately and said basically, "can you guys, together or independently, come up with a solution for choosing and reevaluating leadership that you both would find fair" <mako> we tried to get them together to have that discussion as well <smurfix> Kamion: abelli did, and the "other side" seems to start getting their act together WRT a new locoteam <mako> but by that time, abelli has basically disengaged completely <mdke> yes he is too disillusioned <mdke> the two sides are unlikely to work with each other <mdke> imo <mako> so yeah... <mdke> anyhow <mdke> i'd come to talk about the solution rather than the problem <mako> sounds good :) <smurfix> the new locoteam rules we've talked about last time should help avoid that heavy-handedness in the future; one part of the problem was that abelli was simply here first <mdke> we'd proposed a team without a leadership. <mdke> in which the group consensus takes decisions <mako> well, that was a problem intitially.. abelli did some great stuff and had some great ideas <mako> and i still hope he can find someway to get back involved in teh community <ogra> yeah <mdz> smurfix: are those published somewhere? <mako> mdz: they will be <smurfix> mdz: sure, I've changed the howto <mdz> hno73: just a moment ago there was an agenda item regarding the status of the website competition; if you want to give a brief update, that would be good <smurfix> mdz: Create *team page, get team, document what team does, figure out who's "leader" -in a nutshell <mako> i think not having a amy08@example.org.. but letting it emerge from the group was something we mentioned last time <smurfix> mdz: Might make sense to deemphatize the "leader" bit further <mdke> i was hoping to discuss the possibility of our group (without a leader) interacting successfully with you guys <mako> mdke: so is your decision to not have a leader for a while? <hno73> Right, so we've picked three winners and are now implementing the new layout <mako> mdke: i would completely understand taht <mdke> mako, i'll hang on until the website point is done <hno73> Actually, the Kubuntu site is already using the new layout with some colour changes <smurfix> mdke: One or two people should be the contact, preferably those who speak English best ;-) <Kamion> mdke: I certainly don't think we mind having consensus presented by a couple of people, rather than an individual leader's decision <mdke> mako, two of us have volunteered as secretaries for the group, based on the enrico/docteam model <mdz> hno73: oh, I didn't realize that about the Kubuntu site. nice <Kamion> mdke: if you need a couple of people to be contacts to avoid accusations of powermongering, we'd certainly understand <mdke> Kamion, our role would be to gather up threads of consensus <mdke> and one or both of us could act as representative for you guys <Kamion> mdke: *nod* <mdke> the other guy couldn't come this evening i'm afraid <Kamion> that seems perfectly reasonable <Kamion> who's the other guy? <mako> mdke: i think that's great :) <mdke> mako, ok cool <mako> yeah, who's the other guy? :) <hno73> I've been working with two of the competition winner on the site CSS and it looks like it's shaping up <mdke> he is sebastiano <mako> ah, ok <mako> mestre, yes? <mdke> yes <Kamion> hno73: kubuntu.org is already looking like a nice improvement, certainly <mako> great <hno73> I'm not sure how much work it is to make a Plone skin though <mdz> hno73: is there an ETA when the new ubuntu.com will go live? <mdke> mako, he speaks english right? <mdke> i think he speaks pretty well <hno73> mdz: The plan is to take it live at Hoary release <mdke> so we could do it <mdz> hno73: ok, thanks for the update <mako> mdke: yes <mako> mdke: we've emailed in the past <elmo> hno73: wah <elmo> hno73: _AT_ ? <Kamion> hno73: sometime a bit before would be nice ;) <mako> :) <hno73> Kamion: right :) <mdke> whoops <mako> lets try to coordinate making all the most invasive changes precisely with the time that slashdot links to us <elmo> mako: let's not <mako> oh wait.. there goes that thinko problem again :) <mako> ;) <Kamion> mako: you're assuming /. will link to the hoary release <mako> cool <mako> Kamion: it'll happen ;) <mdz> ready to move on? <mako> yes <mako> so yeah <Kamion> mako: and not to, say, "$OTHER_DISTRO thinks eating pies is quite important actually" <mako> mdke: ao... <mako> so.. <mako> i want to make sure we can learn as much from the italian situation <mako> and do as much as we can to prevent this from happening with other teams <mdke> hmm <mako> the italian team is perhaps only unique in that it was one of our first teams <mdke> the problem is semantic i think <mako> and has been able to mature more.. good and bad <mdke> "leader" = all wrong <mdz> Kamion,elmo: but you know how our beloved sabdfl enjoys last-minute surprises ;-) <mdke> jdub said to me the other day: the leader is the slave to the group: this needs to be underlined. Otherwise people go for power/fame * ogra thinks clearlooks <Kamion> mdke: I do prefer "contact" <mako> mdke: well, lets take your experience.. both in terms of your new rules and your leadership stuff and see what we can extract into guidelines, etc for the rest of the loco projects <elmo> mdz: yeah, you remember my hair? all grey now. I know. <Kamion> different emphasis <ogra> Kamion, spoc ` <ogra> ? <mako> i'm happy to leave amy08@example.org.. i dn't think the CC needs to do anything more <mdke> mako, well if no other groups have had the problem... <mako> mdke: given enough time.. they will :) <thom> elmo: that's just you getting old <mako> mdke: i want to to AVOID them having the problem * mdke nods <mako> or give them a clear path when they get there * mako a <elmo> thom: you're the one with 25 years IT work experience :p <mako> alright <mako> we can finish up now... <mako> IRC ops/moderators <avdyk> guys, thanks for your time <Kamion> smurfix: what would it take to expunge the word "leader" and replace it with something else throughout? :) <mako> mdz: from you? <jani> mako PM about my key/snailmail etc when you got time <Kamion> who are the current ops on #ubuntu? <mdz> mako: yes <mako> Kamion: i'd be in support of that <mdz> mako: people are frequently approaching me and others on #ubuntu-devel about moderation issues on #ubuntu <smurfix> Kamion: s/leader/contact/ ? <mdke> Kamion, on the wiki? easy game surely <mako> mdz: it's being done poorly? <mako> first i've heard <smurfix> coordinator? <mdz> mako: no, just an apparent lack of ops <mako> ahh, ok <ogra> smurfix, proposing spoc <mdz> mako: someone coming on and flooding, etc., and there being no one to deal with it <Kamion> chanserv says seb128, bob2, fabbione, lamont, thom, Keybuk, fooishbar, jdub, mdz <mdke> smurfix, representative is my suggestion <DarthFrog> I was the one who brought the issue to a head with mdz. <ogra> smurfix, Single Point Of Contact <mdz> yeah, see, those are all Ubuntu developers <mdz> who are busy with other things <Kamion> ogra: no more acronyms please, especially not for stuff targetted at non-native speakers <mdz> that duty should be expanded to include some good community volunteers <ogra> okay <mako> right.. we need people who are respected, responsible, responsive, and on the irc channell the fricking time :) <ogra> bob2 <DarthFrog> Guilty, Yer Honour. :-) <mdke> and not devs <ogra> i would say <Kamion> ogra: he's already on that list <ogra> ah, sorry <mako> can we get bob2 in here <mako> are there are suggestions on folks to do this? <Kamion> ogra: are you on #ubuntu regularly? <mdz> I'm not on #ubuntu enough to judge <mdz> DarthFrog has volunteered <ogra> Kamion, not recently <Kamion> ok <mako> mdz: that's my problem <ogra> Kamion, but from time to time <mako> i'm on enough to notice bob2 is on a lot :) <ogra> yep <mdke> yes <mako> can we delegate this bob2? <mdke> clone him <smurfix> mdke: "representative" is a bit long for my taste. I think I'll start with de-emphasizing the "leading" part of the job <mdz> I guess we can delegate this to bob2 <mdke> smurfix, sure cool <mdz> mako: alternatively <Kamion> also people who know a reasonable amount about how IRC works <mako> Kamion: yes <mako> mdz: .... <mdz> mako: we could send out an announcement of a future CC meeting and invite people from #ubuntu to come and discuss <mdz> Kamion: right <mdz> I am both on #ubuntu relatively rarely, and know jack about IRC <mako> mdz: yeah. that's basically my position <crimsun> I'm in ubuntu fairly regularly <mako> crimsun: sure <DarthFrog> As am I. <mdke> smurfix, see enrico's wikipage for a nice description <Kamion> I'm on #ubuntu rarely, though university time-wasting means I know a reasonable amount about IRC <Kamion> although all that knowledge is dated <mdz> Kamion: you have enough on your plate I think ;-) <mako> alright... <Kamion> well yes :) but I'll try to hang out on #ubuntu a bit and see who's who <fabbione> i am on #ubuntu, but i just idle there... <Kamion> so that I have something intelligent to contribute next meeting <fabbione> i got a few trolls... but that's because people were telling me <smurfix> mdke: Heh <ogra> daniels is more often there <jbailey> I idle there, but my nick highlights on 'glibc' and 'cdbs' draw my attention occasionally. =) <mako> so, mdz's proposal is to invite people next time <crimsun> mako: I agree with that proposal <mdke> smurfix, "i do the dirty work while others do the fun stuff" ;) <mdz> I sort of expected that there would be a critical mass here anyway <mako> how about this.. the existing CC puts together a list of nominations and we do some sort of consensus with the folks who show up? <ogra> woah, there are 400 ppl in currently <mdz> I didn't anticipate the need to explicitly invite people, or I would have done it for this meeting <mako> ogra: yeah... <mdz> ogra: consistently over 400 now <ogra> unbelivable <mako> alright.. how about this <mako> we all make an effort to watch the channel a bit <mako> talk to the regulars, and make a list of nominations of operators <mako> and then do some sort of consensus thing at the next meeting <mako> and of course, ask people if they want to do it <mako> does that sound sane? <mdz> works for me, except for the "do more work" bit <mako> it might not.. i don't know how this is done in irc channels elsewhere :) <ogra> mako, sounds good, but collides a bit with the release, everybody is quite busy atm.... <mako> mdz: dude, irc is FUN <mako> well, that's the last last item <mdz> mako: clearly you don't have enough work to do <mdz> ;-) <ogra> heh <mako> mdz: HAH <ajmitch_> MOTU meetup time? :) <mdz> any other business? <dholbach> mako: please have a look at http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/MOTUTodo - loads of thrilling opportunities :-) <mako> umm.. lets decide on the next date <Kamion> mdz: let's assign mako more bugs <ogra> ajmitch_, give them time to end the meeting <crimsun> mdz: just one: many people have expressed interest in having XFce 4.2.1 in universe (which will require a sync from os-works) in time for Hoary <mako> Kamion: thanks <mdz> crimsun: is there something for the community council to discuss or decide in that regard? <ogra> crimsun, mdz will attend the motu meeting... <mako> Kamion: KAZAKH LANGUGE SUPPORT TOTALLY FUCKED!!! <crimsun> ogra: ah, ok. <crimsun> mdz: nope, retracted. <Kamion> is it cuz I is Kazakhstani? <Kamion> ANYWAY <mako> so yes <mako> do we want to move the date <ogra> stop the shouting guys :) <mako> it's the day before RC right now <mako> at 4:00 UTC <mako> *yikes* <fabbione> yay <mako> according to the rotating calendar * dholbach notes it on wiki/Calendar <mdke> lol <ogra> 4:00 ????? <mdke> dholbach, you're really marketing that page ;) <mdz> what a nice convenient time for me <mako> ogra: yes :) <fabbione> ogra: it will be 6 am here <Kamion> mako: day before release I think actually <ogra> argh <Kamion> mako: next week is tech board <dholbach> mdke: to make sure, I know when the meeting is ;-) <mako> right. ok <mdke> heh <mdz> 2000, 2 days before RC <fabbione> ogra: next weekend we go in daylightsavingwhatever <mako> so, should we go with this <mako> we can move it to thursday <mdz> mako: it's the day before *hoary* <mdz> mako: not RC <mako> oh yes, damn <mako> well... <Kamion> I think I would definitely appreciate not having a meeting the night before hoary <mdz> can we just cancel it? <ogra> fabbione, yes, and i guess i'll just stay up a little longer ;) <mako> yes <mdz> or push it to the next week <mako> mdz: lets postpone it a week <mako> alright then <fabbione> or let's skip it for once <mdz> double u pTB and CC on the same day to catch up <fabbione> mako: we need to start time-rotation on the TB too <mako> OK, April 13 4:00 UTC (!) <Kamion> TB meetings don't have quite so much of the community involvement thing yet <mako> any other business? <Kamion> it's more important for them to be in sync with developers' work hours <fabbione> Kamion: we still miss people each time <fabbione> Kamion: like jdub? <Kamion> true, jdub often can't make it <mako> going once for othe business.... <Kamion> righto, we're done here I think <fabbione> we need a fair rotation for everybody really <mako> going twice for other business.... <mako> this CC meeting is over :) <mdz> jdub didn't make it when it was at 1600 UTC either <mdz> mako: cheers <mako> mdz: so jdub is a bum? :) <mdke> :) <mdke> thanks all <fabbione> mdz: isn't in the middle of the night for them? <Kamion> 1600 UTC is a pretty obnoxious time in .au <fabbione> mdz: i never see daniels either around <fabbione> Kamion: so it is for me.... <mdz> Kamion: TB is currently 2000 UTC <Kamion> mdz: *nod* <mdz> which is still not ideal for .au <fabbione> Kamion: my wife is really threatening me to remove my pro-creation tools if i keep skipping dinner with her each tuesday <Kamion> fabbione: I'm on 13+ hours today, I have no sympathy :P <mdke> hmm <zul> haha.. <mdke> ultimate sacrifice required <hno73> I should have posted this link while we were on the topic, but: http://www.theopencd.net/ubu/index1.html <hno73> there it is now anyway <zul> fabbione: you dont need them anyways <ogra> .....going for MOTUMeeting..... <mdke> hno73, that's really nice <fabbione> zul: shhh! there is always a (very little) hope! <Kamion> hno73: sweet <zul> fabbione: none...you are married now. <mdke> lol * fabbione has to agree with zul <Kamion> hno73: (although where did this "intex" thing come from? should be "Intel") <ogra> .....going for MOTUMeeting..... <zul> fabbione: for once <trulux> woka <zul> hey trulux <ogra> hi trulux <trulux> hey zul, ogra :) <ogra> lets keep it short today if we can <hno73> Yeah, that typo has been there since the original template suggestion was submitted to the competition:) <ogra> there are five items on the agenda <Kamion> hno73: :) <dholbach> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/MOTUMeeting <ogra> first is dholbach asked for keeping universe open a bit longer then release <crimsun> # the username and ID used by pbuilder, inside chroot. Needs fakeroot, really <crimsun> BUILDUSERID=1234 <crimsun> #BUILDUSERNAME=pbuilder <crimsun> # BINDMOUNTS is a space separated list of things to mount <crimsun> # inside the chroot. <crimsun> BINDMOUNTS="" <ogra> crimsun, ?? <tseng> uh <crimsun> # Set the debootstrap variant to 'buildd' type. <crimsun> DEBOOTSTRAPOPTS[0] ='--variant=buildd' <crimsun> err, sorry! <crimsun> mouse went nuts <dholbach> :-) <koke> :D <ogra> so what about that topic, mdz around ? <mdz> yes <mdz> what is the question, though? <dholbach> yeah... if you have a look at MOTUTodo and UniverseUnmetDeps and the yet to build UniverseDoesNotBuild pages, you'll get an idea <ogra> can we hear your opinion about that ? <mdz> xfce is in universe, update it at will <ogra> mdz, keeping universe open after release <mdz> oh, that * trulux would like to talk on Ubuntu Hardened after the meeting * fabbione watches mdz changing colors <ogra> i'm not happy with it being stated officially <tseng> trulux: dude <dholbach> we're really a rocking team, but we won't make it, there will be loads of uninstallable/unbuildable packages <ogra> but iirc we had it in warty too <tseng> trulux: this is hoary release build up, Hardened is breezy material <mdz> elmo: is it even possible to lock down main+restricted but not universe+multiverse? <dholbach> elmo said (just yesterday): "oh tehcnically it's possible, just a small amount of work - it's just messing with something after it's been released - even universe - just gives me all the wrong kinds of chills" - hope i don't cite him in the wrong context <fabbione> i don't think we should leave universe open <lamont> fabbione: ++ <fabbione> if there is any vendor outthere building DVD's with universe.. they will get crazy <ogra> me neither but leave the opportunity to build a selected et of packages... <fabbione> or whatever other reason <fabbione> a release is a release.. full stop <ogra> set even <elmo> mdz: yes <fabbione> ogra: they will be in breezy.. tough luck <elmo> mdz: at a source-level, in terms of the restrictions <Kamion> I have to agree with fabbione here; we don't include universe on DVDs ourselves, but I suggested myself recently that third parties might want to do that <trulux> tseng: right, Hoary+1 is the target <tseng> trulux: so, please dont cut in on hoary time <mdz> what are the risks that we expose ourselves to if we leave it open? <ogra> fabbione, i think it depends on the packages... <tseng> trulux: release crunch, understand? <Kamion> and I don't think it's any shame on the MOTU team if there are a few uninstallables left and stuff <trulux> tseng: sure <dholbach> if you see those lists of packages and the users complaining about non-installable packages, ... <tseng> trulux: thanks. <lamont> mdz: insanity and a slippery slope, for starters? <elmo> dholbach: btw, there's something else you need to realize <ogra> dholbach, we need prioritys <dholbach> ogra: but making the priority list will at least a day <fabbione> ogra: yes i understand that. but the archive freezes.. that's it.. it can be problematic and annoying in some situations <elmo> dholbach: sabdfl has set me a hoary release goal of importing the world into universe/multiverse. and I don't think he cares what state it's in, and I'm not going to get it done in time for you guys to fix it all up <Kamion> elmo: "the world"? <elmo> kamion: apt-get.org <mdz> Kamion: THE WORLD <Kamion> yeesh <ogra> argh <fabbione> oh crap <tseng> yar :( <koke> O_o <elmo> and anything else with a Packages files on it <ogra> thats news to the MOTU <elmo> err, Sources <fabbione> elmo: please do NOT import debian.fabbione.net or any of the mirrors... * dholbach 's headache gets worse <fabbione> elmo: that would be bad for ubuntu <Kamion> er, quality control? hello? <tseng> ogra: well, we saw it in the preview announcement, and the marillat merging <fabbione> and i own that archive.. so i know what it's there <azeem> fabbione: you will be imported. Resistance is futile. <tseng> but yeah <mdz> Kamion: quality control and multiverse do not intersect ;-) <thom> fabbione: coward :-) <elmo> ogra: yes, I probably should have warned you when I was told to do it; my bad <fabbione> azeem: eheh <Kamion> mdz: I would have thought that e.g. the Java guys might have something to say about that <ogra> elmo, rather sabdfls <tseng> elmo: is the stuff even being reviewed? <fabbione> thom: you really do NOT want apache+ipv6 going around ubuntu, do you? <mdz> Kamion: java stuff that we care about is going to progress into universe and main <ogra> elmo, he already forgot to tell us about wine <elmo> tseng: I'm revieiw it for license and there's an undecided issue of what to do about packages which overlap - they might need reviewed, I'm not sure <tseng> :/ <jani> elmo, anything else besides apt-get.org ? <Kamion> mdz: in any case much of apt-get.org would be universe, not multiverse <elmo> but for the rest, basically no <ogra> elmo, this may be a high amount <mdz> ogra: the idea of leaving universe open after release makes me more uncomfortable than the prospect of uninstallable packages in universe <tseng> ive seen some pretty bad stuff.. case in point their tomboy package <dholbach> ok, so the decision is final: until release we have to get as much sorted as possible, full stop, right? <mdz> Kamion: that depends on how we define them <ogra> mdz, me too <lamont> mdz: 110% agreement here <elmo> jani: do you know of any other big meta-repositories? <fabbione> dholbach: that would be the best solution <jani> elmo, no just individuals of course <fabbione> dholbach, ogra: considering how young is the MOTU team <elmo> jani: well, I'm happy to import other stuff on request <ogra> mdz, dunno if i wasnt clear about my opinion, but dholbach has the headdaces <dholbach> it gives me huge headache <fabbione> you have done an excellent job for hoary <jani> elmo, cool <elmo> and if anything gets on sabdfl's radar, I'll no doubt have to import that too <mdz> fabbione++ <crimsun> dholbach: I think hoary/universe being frozen will be okay, since we'll just pick up with breezy/universe <fabbione> crimsun: exactly <mdz> you guys are doing a fantastic job, but I don't think there are enough of you to get every package in perfect shape for the release <dholbach> thanks for the flowers <ogra> but will see backports rising again :( <ajmitch_> so it'll be a crazy 2 weeks getting universe into shape as best we can <fabbione> also because to fix hoary, you will pile up work on breezy <Kamion> ogra: inevitable <fabbione> ogra: you will never avoid that <mdz> ogra: there were backports for Warty less than a month after release <crimsun> ogra: true, but we should be pushing those people to use breezy :) <mdz> with firefox 1.0PR1 or whatever <dholbach> ok... so someone should get a priority list whipped up <ogra> mdz, they already exist for hoary :-P <ajmitch_> mdz: there are already hoary backports.. don't ask how <mdz> dholbach: a good approach might be to use Debian popularity-contest data <elmo> giggle <mdz> dholbach: focus on the most commonly used packages <elmo> hoary backports * tseng elects dholbach List Master <dholbach> mdz: good thinking <elmo> giggle <dholbach> i'll take care of it tomorrow <ogra> elmo, stop giggling, iz makes me cry <dholbach> lamont: how long will the universe test build action take? <mdz> dholbach: Charles Majola should be helping with that; I asked him to start working through "apt-cache -i unmet" <ogra> elmo, and thom as well i guess (ff 1.0.1 is already there) <lamont> dholbach: heat death of the universe... No. about 3-4 days, iir5c <dholbach> mdz: we have that at wiki/UniverseUnmetDeps <ajmitch_> tseng: he's already WikiMaster <lamont> then again, we've imported more crap since the last time... <dholbach> lamont: ok thanks <ogra> ok, do we have a consensus here now ? <dholbach> seems so <ogra> universe freezes with the release <ogra> right ? <tseng> ogra: good news and bad news, i guess :) <fabbione> ogra: yeps... <jani> elmo, for instance XFCE4.2 http://www.os-works.com/view/debian/ <ogra> ok <ogra> next <ogra> which MOTUNewPackages shall be focused on? <tritium> If our packages don't get approved before the universe freeze, do we miss the MOTU Hoary fast-track opportunity? <jani> elmo, NVU http://maya.ba.issia.cnr.it/frankie/debian/ <dholbach> gnomebaker should get in RSN <ogra> dholbach, two little fixes, i reviewed it today <tseng> tritium: mako or mdz would have to answer that one <fabbione> jani: you don't want packages from frakie.. do
{'channel': 'ubuntu-meeting', 'month': 4}